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Draco Malfoy

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Draco Malfoy Empty Draco Malfoy

Post  Mona Tue May 03, 2011 7:00 am

This topic is an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. ~ Mona

Denise P. - Sep 1, 2003 6:53 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 3:27 am
Draco Malfoy....everyone talks about him but really, he is not a very developed character.

We know he is a bully who is a coward, he surrounds himself with brawn rather than brains. Most of his self esteem seems to be wrapped up in his fathers real/imagined prestige. We saw at the end of OoP that he places the blame of his father being in Azkaban squarely on Harry rather than on Lucius.

There are those who think Draco will break free of Lucius and become a good person but really, I can't see it. I entertained the idea but OoP really nailed the coffin shut on the theory for me...just ain't gonna happen.

It will be interesting to see how he develops in HP6.


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Last edited by Mona on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 1 to 50

Post  Mona Tue May 03, 2011 7:18 am

Sly Girl - Sep 1, 2003 9:04 pm (#1 of 1825)
I agree. Draco will probably remain a git. Won't stop the fan fics though, eh Denise?

I sometimes wonder if JKR consciously pulled away from showing Draco too much in this book- she did seem rather put out that people were dressing like him. (It's that blasted Tom Felton, that's who I blame. lol)

I do think it would be interesting to see the dynamics of the Malfoy household, maybe Narcissa will have a bigger part and we can see how Draco interacts with her.



OkieAngel - Sep 1, 2003 9:09 pm (#2 of 1825)
It's just so hard to completely give up on a character, even when they seem so utterly rotten. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but hope springs eternal... If not, and the old adage the apple doesn't fall far from the tree proves true, I hope Harry destroys him good and proper.

I agree that Narcissa remains the unknown, strangely like Lily Potter, only Darker somehow.



rettoP yrraH - Sep 1, 2003 9:19 pm (#3 of 1825)
I think people have the same 'problem' with draco as they have with snape. They......are.....both........GITS!!! JRK made em like that and undobtebly will keep them like that. I mean what would the book be like if every bad guy all of the sudden became good?

I'd like to address the CRABBIEmalfoyGOYLE crowd. Crabbe and Goyle Sr. are they allso Malfoy Sr.'s body shields? we see how dumb they realy are by the way Voldimort speaks to them, like little kids "We'll do better next time? Yes Crabbie...Goyle?" sounds like PreKindergatren lingo to me.



TGF - Sep 1, 2003 9:21 pm (#4 of 1825)
Draco is an evil little jerk, he's not worthy of any mercy. It's so clear that he's completely bought into Voldemort's pure-blood ideals... And the fact that he does everything, and I mean EVERYTHING to be a destructive force in the school (Join up with Umbridge's squad, talk crap about all the teachers he doesn't like, etc.) does not help.



OkieAngel - Sep 1, 2003 11:55 pm (#5 of 1825)
I'm not disagreeing that Draco is utterly rotten, and don't we all love to hate him, but wouldn't it be just like JKR to throw us all for a loop and make him do something good?

Yes, Crabbe and Goyle are useless gits...



TGF - Sep 2, 2003 12:09 am (#6 of 1825)
Would it be like JKR to do make a character do something that's completely out of character? Because frankly, Malfoy doing something good is completely out of his character. If there's something rotten, he's licking the bad side of it. Were Umbridge's classes any less of a terror for the Slytherins? No. Did he do anything against Umbridge? No. What did he do? He sided with her like a cowardly dog in the hope of getting a few jabs in against Harry.

Tell me the good thing that he could do, let's consider it. Would he give information on the DE? Yeah right... The guy would sell Hogwarts and everyone inside for a sickle. There's no redemption for him.



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 12:29 am (#7 of 1825)
I completely agree that he is a coward, and as long as he remains such he will continue in his father's footsteps, because as a DE I don't see Draco having the backbone or substance to come out of his father's shadow. I guess I am just paranoid, since losing Sirius, to assume that a character is "just the way they are" and there's no redemption in sight.



TGF - Sep 2, 2003 12:41 am (#8 of 1825)
If there were a Junior Death Eater league, Malfoy would be chief. Seriously, Malfoy's been in Voldemort's corner since we first met him, what with his 'right sort' comments. Bravery isn't the prerequisite for becoming a Death Eater, ambition for power, fear of those greater than you and a general ruthlessness when dealing with your enemies are. These are traits that Draco demonstrates in great quantities.

I don't see why you bring Sirius up, what's he to do with any of this?



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 1:07 am (#9 of 1825)
Well, I brought Sirius up to prove a point. Everyone, including Harry and Lupin, thought Sirius was guilty of horrendous crimes, only to find out that he was in fact innocent and acting in what he thought was Harry's best interests. Proving that a character can be thought of as the dregs of humanity, yet can be salvaged. Do I really see this happening with Draco? No, but it's fun discussing it with you...

Wink



TGF - Sep 2, 2003 1:14 am (#10 of 1825)
While I'm glad that you're having fun, I don't see the connection. Sirius never did anything wrong, but rather he was misunderstood by an entire society. Draco has done plenty, plenty, PLENTY of wrong things, often with no reason other than pettiness. What did he really have to gain by getting Buckbeak killed? Nothing. He's just a little jerk.



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 1:21 am (#11 of 1825)
TGF, Darlin, put the sharp objects down, and step away from the monitor...I was agreeing with you. I just like to play devil's advocate every once in a great while. Plus, Sirius is my favorite character so i had to defend him just a bit... Smile



TGF - Sep 2, 2003 1:31 am (#12 of 1825)
Sirius was a favorite character of mine as well.

I think there are enough people now to form a 'Victims of TGF' club now, or maybe 'SPOPTGF' (Society For the Protection of Other Posters from TGF)... Sorry I get carried away sometimes. Didn't mean to go crazy in the rebuttals.



twitches* Damn Draco... We hates them... It burns us...



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 1:35 am (#13 of 1825)
LOL! Twitchy little ferret...Draco, that is.



fidelio - Sep 2, 2003 4:58 am (#14 of 1825)
Back at ExileBoard, I mean EZBoard, Tim suggested 'Death Nibblers' for the junior branch of the DEs...it's got possibilities, I think.



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 11:37 am (#15 of 1825)
I think it's going to be very interesting to see the dynamics between Draco and Voldy, once they come face to face. Personally, I don't think the Dark Lord will have much use for the little ferret. How many times has there been showdown situations between Harry and Draco, and he (draco) has proved himself inept. Makes me wonder about Lucius as well. Does he really think his son will become this powerful DE?

Had a funny thought...wouldn't it be a hoot if Draco's Patronus was a ferret?!?

Smile



rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 11:51 am (#16 of 1825)
Thats if he would be able to conjure one...We havent seen an indication that malfoy is a powerfull wizerd yet have we?



timrew - Sep 2, 2003 2:45 pm (#17 of 1825)
It would be even funnier if his Animagus was a ferret - if he ever became one!

I don't see Draco becoming a Death Eater. Like fidelio said (thanks, fidelio!), I suggested on EZBoard that Draco, Crabbe and Goyle would probably never rise above the rank of Death Nibblers.

Draco might become another sneak like Pettigrew; but whether he will ever learn the more powerful spells remains to be seen.

Crabbe and Goyle will probably end up like their dads - sort of Death Nibbling Gophers, always sharing the same brain-cell.



Olivia Wood - Sep 2, 2003 4:12 pm (#18 of 1825)
I think most people agree with me that Draco isn't well set up for redemption as of OoP, but what about Crabbe and Goyle? Are they really as stupid as they appear? As far as Death Nibblers go, they haven't been that active themselves... is it inconcevable that they abandon Malfoy, or will their role in the story turn out to be confined to that of Malfoy's brainless bodyguards?



rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 4:15 pm (#19 of 1825)
I think they are as dumb as they appear maybe dumber...



Hem Hem - Sep 2, 2003 5:12 pm (#20 of 1825)
Crabbe and Goyle might have some substance to them... er, DEEP down. They seem like the most cardboard-like characters in the series. However, their fathers must be more than moss-covered-boulders, because they managed to graduate from Death-Nibbler status. How does a compete idiotic fool manage to gain enough of Voldemort's respect to be included in the elite top-eschelon of Death Eaters? Not every one of Voldy's supporters were "honored" with getting the Dark Mark tattoo... somehow, Crabbe and Goyle senior have something more to them, crazy as that seems. And their sons just might have something beneath their surface as well...maybe.



S.E. Jones - Sep 2, 2003 5:28 pm (#21 of 1825)
Maybe they were just ruthless enough to be included in his inner circle...?



Olivia Wood - Sep 2, 2003 6:12 pm (#22 of 1825)
Maybe they're really rich, almost as rich as Malfoy, but too stupid to do anything about it. That's really all I can think of.



Thom Matheson - Sep 2, 2003 7:59 pm (#23 of 1825)
Draco or his Lt's, Crabbe and Goyle, don't have enough to shine even Lockhart's boots. They barely stumbled through as Prof Scumbridge's stooges. The will eventually transfer to a trade school and run the DE Express Bus, taking classes from Stan and Ernie.



OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 8:28 pm (#24 of 1825)
I wonder what one would do to flag down the DE Express, cast the Dark Mark into the sky??



rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 8:30 pm (#25 of 1825)
I think Crabbie and Goyle Sr. are used for body shields...



OkieAngel 2, 2003 9:01 pm (#26 of 1825)
Crabbe and Goyle are the requisite goons, imho.



Sinister Kittens 3, 2003 4:05 am (#27 of 1825)
Makes you wonder how low the pass mark must be - they manage to come back every year so they are obviously passing their exams... (we just don't know how!)



Ingolfr the Iambic 3, 2003 6:26 am (#28 of 1825)
Edited by Sep 3, 2003 6:46 am
I'm new here. Sorry, but I think you are all missing a point. The sorting hat clearly states that without unity between the houses there will be no victory against evil. This means Slytherin must be an essential part of the Dark Lords downfall. I think it will be very interesting to watch Dracos development in the next book. Now that his father is in prison, will he become an even more fanatical supporter of the Dark Lord or will he realize that his father never was an ally of the Dark Lord but only his disposable instrument? Dracos constant yapping has become a security risk for the Dark Lord, will he try to get rid of Draco? What will Dracos response be when he discovers that nobody is safe from the Dark Lord, not even his most avid supporters if he doesn't have direct use for them? Draco is of course a spoiled brat, but when he tastes the reality of Voldemorts return on his own skin he might come around. He will always be a git and we might see a similar continuing loath/loath relationship between Harry and Draco as we have seen between Snape and Sirius, but they will be on the same side in the end. Someone must lead Slytherin into the union of the houses or else the Dark Lord will prevail. Any thoughts?



fidelio 3, 2003 7:02 am (#29 of 1825)
Slytherin must unite with the other houses, but that doesn't automatically mean that Draco will get with the program. I think this may have more to do with the members of Slytherin deciding whether they want to hook up with Draco and the other, would-be Death Nibblers, or if they want to stand against him. Draco's had clout in Slytherin, but a lot of this is becuse of his father's status. With his father revealed as a DE and in Azkaban, at least for now, and DD firmly back in place at Hogwarts, it's possible Slytherin could divide within. If we see Draco as a semi-competent loudmouth who indulges in risky behaviors, how does he look from inside Slytherin? With Lucius free and looking rich and important, he was worth courting. With Lucius locked up and discredited, is he safe to flout? Also, the results of the attack in Umbridge's office are probably known now--he and his little gang got pretty well clobbered, once Umbridge was out of the way, and word has to have gotten out. I suspect that from the inside, Slytherin is a network of alliances and enmities, with maneuvering that would make what goes on in the cloakroom of the US Senate look like a picnic. His dad's locked up, he's a semicompetent loudmouth who's thrown his weight around for years. Maybe more Slyths will be in the mood to drift away from him and get friendly with the rest of the school.



Denise P. 3, 2003 7:14 am (#30 of 1825)
While the Sorting Hat says there must be unity among the Houses, does it specify between the FOUR Houses? I can see where Slytherin would choose to break away from Hogwarts, leaving the remaining 3 to unite.

As it stands now from what we have seen thus far, there is no way any unity will be achieved from Slytherin if Draco is around.



J-D 3, 2003 1:41 pm (#31 of 1825)
Quote: "Yeah and I suppose Lord Voldemort's just a warmup compared to you." Harry is absolutley right. When Harry had his little thing w/ Malfoy at the end of OoTP he had his wand pointing at Malfoy be4 Malfoy even touched his, is it just me or is Malfoy suddenly obselite. Harry has to kill Lord Voldemort and has dueled him twice I mean he can cast a Patronus and got through all the Triwizard tasks i mean come on like Little Ferret boy is gonna be powerful enough to even slow Harry down, no way.



OkieAngel 3, 2003 2:05 pm (#32 of 1825)
I can see the militant Slytherins pulling out of Hogwarts and going to Durmstrang, perhaps, while the remaining Slyth's either form a kinder, gentler Slytherin House, or join one of the other Houses. Wonder if the Sorting Hat could do a "redo" sorting in that instance??

Kinda makes ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Smile



TGF 3, 2003 2:09 pm (#33 of 1825)
There's been a lot of discussion about Theodore Nott and his possible role as a good Slytherin... I wouldn't give Draco an angelic halo and harp just because of the hat's song. There're plenty of other people in Slytherin who can fulfill that role.



Olivia Wood 3, 2003 3:37 pm (#34 of 1825)
Theodore Nott's rapidly becoming one of my favorite characters. Smile

Malfoy's in no way obsolete, though. Just because he now probably can't beat Harry in a straight duel (I so would love for them to arrange to finish that duel in the Trophy Room from SS that Malfoy never showed up for, and have him get his but kicked) doesn't mean he can't still be a major nuisance. He can still hex people from behind, spy on everyone (how much do you wanna bet that Malfoy's got his own invisibility cloak by now?) and report back to the Death Eaters, recruit for the Death Nibblers...

You know what would be really cool? If Theodore Nott took up the same kind of spy position among the students as Snape has among the adults... you can never have too many Snape's around. Smile



OkieAngel 3, 2003 4:08 pm (#35 of 1825)
I agree that Malfoy isn't obsolete, he's providing comic relief!!

Twitchy little ferret...

Smile



megfox 3, 2003 5:37 pm (#36 of 1825)
Two things -

1. J-D: Welcome to the Forum! I just wanted to point you in the direction of the "Philosophy of this Forum" thread. You can find it by using the Search function in the teal bars at the top and bottom of your screen. We try (notice I said try!)here to spell properly ("before" instead of "b4) and to use good punctuation, and no netspeak. It makes posts easier to read, and won't get you kippendoed!

2. I think that we should remember that Slytherin the wizard left the school when he didn't agree with the way that things were being run. While I don't think that Slytherin the House will leave Hogwarts, there is a possibility that some of the members might take offense to the upcoming war and may choose (or have their parent's choose) for them to leave. I also think that we unconsciously stereotype all Slytherin's as being evil because of their supposed ambition. I think that we should remember Slytherin Prefect's flowchart of ambition, pride, and evil (or something like that, amybe he can repost it). Anyway, the logic was that just because someone is ambitious doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad. Using any means to achieve your ends doesn't always mean that a person will resort to evil ways. Like I have said before, I don't think that JKR has given us a reason to pigeon hole any group of people, and we should remember that when we are analyzing the role of any Slytherin.

Having said that, I am tending to think that Draco is a nasty little git that needs to get his behind whupped by someone "inferior" to him, and not have Daddy there to save him from the consequences. But that's just a very tired teacher talking after the first day back teaching freshman! I can't wait until tomorrow, when they have to meet their sophomore teammates - that'll knock them down a peg or two!!



Denise S. 3, 2003 6:54 pm (#37 of 1825)
Hey, Meg, be nice to the ickle firsties! We were all freshmen, once .

It seemed to me that up til ca. book 4, Draco was actually getting some character development. Perhaps it wasn't a lot, and perhaps not as in-depth as others in the book, but it was there (the Borgin & Bourkes scene, his "promotion" to seeker, etc.). It seems to me that now that Voldemort is Harry's main antagonist, Draco has had to fall to the wayside. Maybe JKR is (was) so busy writing about everything that tied in w/ Voldemort and Umbridge that she decided Harry having to deal with Draco would be a bit much. At any rate, it makes no sense to have a character around for so long but leave him as sort of a cardboard cut-out, while other characters in the story you could almost imagine living their lives right beside you.

That said, I also wish there was more development of Draco's character. Because he's been there since Day 1, and it looks as tho' he'll be there til the end, she might as well do something interesting with him. Then again, has there really been as much of a catalyst for change in the past 2 books? No, not really--his dad (til the end of OotP) had been the head honcho behind the scenes of the MoM; Draco could still use the power of his last name to boss people around and get his way. The only thing that really seems to have changed is the amount of attention Harry gets, and therefore the amt. of jealousy Draco has of him. BUT, Daddy Dearest is with the lowest of the low in Azkaban now, and I don't see how he can ever get his "good name" back. Draco's path has changed, whether towards the good side (yeah, right) or towards the Advanced Death Nibblers. I personally am thinking (at the moment, at least) that Voldemort will not show up the next book, but his influence will still be felt. Will this influence come from the remaining DEs, and how much of a hand will Draco have in what Harry'll be getting?

However, I don't think it's impossible to rule out the possibility of Draco still having some type of "goodness" in him. *braces herself* Look at Snape. Now, we all have our visions and suppositions about Snape's terrible childhood and adolescence, his lack of love from those around him or for himself, his desire to get back at those he felt had wronged him--and the X Factor that brought him back to his senses. I also realize that our visions of Snape are not a complete parallel to Draco, but there are some similarities.

We don't know for sure how Draco is treated, whether he faces some kind of neglect at home and/or etc. But it's obvious that Draco lacks self-confidence (hence the Goons) and wants to prove to people that he is worthy of their attention and respect (only Draco doesn't seem to want to work as hard at it). Both he and Snape have gone to great lengths to get revenge on those who they feel have wronged them. Will Draco experience some X Factor that will somehow compel him to finally bring his head out of his butt? If Snape can, he can and likely will; whether or not it will happen within these 7 books is the pressing question.

'Whew!



OkieAngel 3, 2003 10:54 pm (#38 of 1825)
(shudders at the thought of being kipendoed, which is why I keep a dictionary handy)

I think we will see a definite change in Draco in this next book, due to Daddy being a guest at Azkaban. The thing is now, everyone knows the Malfoy's are dirty where before it was just suspected. Plus, we have no idea how the summer holidays went at Malfoy manor, how the dynamics changed at home with Lucius gone. I wonder if the MOM can somehow freeze Lucius's assets since he's now a proven DE?? Wouldn't that just be poetic justice for Draco to have to return to school a pauper?!? No owls delivering oodles of goodies from home and such.

I think it would serve the little git right to be brought down off his high horse.





S.E. Jones 3, 2003 11:01 pm (#39 of 1825)
I don't think they'll freeze his assets, or at least not his vault, since they didn't freeze Sirius's account after he was declared guilty of killing 13 innocent people. I agree though that Draco's character will finally change and (hopefully) will get some depth in the next book.



Professor Kosh 4, 2003 9:27 am (#40 of 1825)
Draco won't be a pauper, but his father no longer having influence will be a real eye opener. Of course, he may be just as persnickety as usual, or worse, but this will be the chance for growth. I also see Snape stepping up as a role for Draco. Of course, he can't really be a 'good' role model for Draco without giving away his true loyalties, but who knows what he might do?



Thom Matheson 4, 2003 9:33 am (#41 of 1825)
I think that the first order of business for Harry when they return to school is the "come to blows with Draco" scene. I could even see it happening in Surry before school. Draco is going to cease to be an antagonist here, and Harry will have to come to grips as well as the revenge from Draco. That last scene in OoP is not going to go away. They will square off and Draco is going down for the count.

Sing along won't you...... Bop, bop, bop, another one bits the dust. And a nibbler's gone, and a nibbler's gone, another one bites the dust.



megfox 4, 2003 12:40 pm (#42 of 1825)
I thought I was being nice!



Sly Girl 4, 2003 12:50 pm (#43 of 1825)
You were Meg, you were.

I know we all want her to go somewhere with Draco, but what if she just sort of.. shunts him to the sidelines like she did with OOtP? What if she is done 'developing' him as a character and we're just reading too much into Draco?



Gabrielle D 4, 2003 1:05 pm (#44 of 1825)
I really think it's horrible that at so young (we met him at eleven) he was acting the way he did. Who's fault is that? His parents. He has reached the age where he should be able to make his own identity... or at least start to form it.

The thing with Draco is, his whole life he has been one way. He's only 16 at most . Draco has time to change.

And i know everyone is going to pull the 'Harry had the Dursleys and he turned out right', but it really is different. The Malfoy's really tryed to make their son the best they could (in their oppinion). The Dursleys didn't really care.

I'd like to give Draco the benifit of the doubt... alot of guys are jerks in high school. Maybe once he matures he will learn what he has done isn't too cool... maybe he wont.



Thom Matheson 4, 2003 1:30 pm (#45 of 1825)
Sly I think that you are right. Wasn't there an interview with Helton where he wasn't signed for more because his character was going to end? You would know if anyone would, but I thought that I read that or saw that somewhere.

Wait just remembered, it was a trailer from the 2nd movie DVD. Anyway I think that you are going to be right in the end.



*Lady Penelope* 4, 2003 1:33 pm (#46 of 1825)
I don't think Draco has what it takes to be a Death Eater. He's a wimp when he doesn't have his muscle there to back him up (like in the first book, when they have to go into the Forbidden Forest). He looks up to his dad, and imitates him. Or at least he imitates the things he sees his dad do, like putting down others because he has the notion that his family is better than other wizarding families. (He doesn't really see his dad doing hard core Death Eater-type stuff, like killing people and chilling with Voldemort). Draco is all talk and very little action. If he actually had to kill someone, I don't think he could. I think that in book 7, in the climactic battle of good vs. evil, Draco will go against his dad and the Death Eaters, and he and Harry will become friends. Well, probably not friends, but they'll at least be on the same side, like James and Snape.

Professor Kosh, interesting point about Snape and Draco. Snape's always been really nice to Draco. If Snape is indeed good (as I hope he is!), then maybe he's being nice because he sees some spark of goodness in Draco. Snape might hope that Draco can be "saved" from a life as one of Voldemort's henchmen. With Snape there to guide Draco, there is still hope!

An interesting side though -- what if Draco had been born in July? Would Lucius have offered his son for Voldemort to kill?



Thom Matheson 4, 2003 1:53 pm (#47 of 1825)
If Draco lasts to the end of 7. I would suggest that Snape sees Draco as himself as when James tormented Snape, so Harry does to Draco. After all Harry vs Draco, Harry is about 10 and 0.



Dr Filibuster 4, 2003 2:10 pm (#48 of 1825)
Draco seems to be sidelined because Harry has matured. His world has got bigger, look at everything he's gone through.

When he was eleven and brand new to the magic world (which was confined to Hogwarts grounds) Draco was a huge threat. Now his world is bigger and he is more confident he just sees Draco as an annoyance...like Dudley. Harry used to get pulverised by Big D but look at them now. I think any child who is being bullied will be reading these parts of the books with great interest.

Draco could still do very harmful things to Harry so I'll still keep an eye on him.



timrew 4, 2003 2:31 pm (#49 of 1825)
Throughout the books (1-4), Draco has had his Dad to brag about, "My Father suggested this to Fudge", My Father put it to the Ministry" etc....This was the only way that Draco gained any respect from anybody. His father had clout. He had friends in the MOM.

But now all that is gone. With his Dad (and Crabbe and Goyle's) locked up in Azkaban, I'm afraid Draco and his cronies are backed into a corner. Apart from their little gang of Slytherin yes-men (and women), they don't have a friend in Hogwarts.

What happens to the school-bully when he loses his 'street-cred'? As Doc Filibuster said, "I think any child who is being bullied will be reading these parts of the books with great interest".

So do I. And I think any child who is being bullied will read in book 6 about Draco's come-uppance. He might get redeemed in the future, but I think JKR will show first of all that there is nothing to be gained by being a bullying little git. Which is what Draco is, and nothing more.



Professor Kosh 4, 2003 2:35 pm (#50 of 1825)
I don't have the DVD, so can anyone confirm what Thom said about the interview?

(By the way Thom, the song is "and another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust")

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Post  Mona Tue May 03, 2011 8:12 am

S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 3:14 pm (#51 of 1825)
I don't know, I kinda liked the way Thom sung it....

Anyway, the interview, Felton said he didn't know if he'd be in anymore films after GoF because he had heard that his character was going to get the ax in Book 5, which we now know didn't happen.

As far as the character of Draco goes, I don't really see him getting redeemed but I do see some character development in his future. He hasn't really needed to develop as a character thus far because he course was sort of set by his father, but now, with his father gone, we might be able to really see what makes Draco tick. I really liked Denise's idea about Draco being the way the major threat in Book 6, guided by Voldemort from a distance....



Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 3:33 pm (#52 of 1825)

>>Draco seems to be sidelined because Harry has matured. His world has got bigger, look at everything he's gone through. <<


Very astute observation, Dr Filibuster. I agree- in order for Harry to even flinch at anything Draco does, JKR has to build up his character a lot more. Seriously, Harry said it all: "Well, I'm terrified now," Harry said sarcastically. "I s'pose Lord Voldemort's just a warm-up act compared to you three-..." (Chpt 38/pg 815 Amer.Ed)

I won't close the book on Draco entirely yet, but I do think his involvement may go down, instead of up.



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 3:37 pm (#53 of 1825)
I don't know. I still see him as the perfect way for Voldemort to directly interfere at Hogwarts. I think Draco will be even more likely to go to him now that (in his mind) Harry's put his dad in prison. I don't think he'll blame his "perfect" father or Voldemort for what happened but will turn to him and Voldy will use this willing subject as best he can....



OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 6:13 pm (#54 of 1825)
Well, unless Daddy Dearest tells Draco where he hid the family "jewels" I don't think he'll be of much use to ol' Voldy...

Twitchy little ferret...





Thom Matheson - Sep 4, 2003 8:08 pm (#55 of 1825)
Kosh, I was playing on Tim's use of the DE kids as Death Nibblers. Sorry about that. I know that we talked about this on the other forums over the summer( the long summer), but remember that Moldyworts is not concerned about good and evil, but Power and those not afraid to use it. I can see Him using the Slytherin 7 to gain access into the school since there really is no one else to use. Draco is stupid enough to buy into the revenge trip and get used. But, as Harry pointed out, he is so ready to square off with Draco and it will happen quickly, I'm certain. Harry will be serving Ferret Under Glass



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 8:16 pm (#56 of 1825)
Hm, could Voldy use Draco to lure Harry out of the school under the pretense of a midnight duel in the Forbidden Forest or something?



Thom Matheson - Sep 4, 2003 8:30 pm (#57 of 1825)
I posted this under Arthur Weasley but I have to say it again, Sarah, your stag is the bomb. I wish I knew how to do that stuff. Sorry off topic again



Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 9:18 pm (#58 of 1825)
I don't know Sarah, do you think Harry would fall for the ol'duel in the forrest trick?



rettoP yrraH - Sep 4, 2003 9:38 pm (#59 of 1825)
From what I saw personaly with a bully who lost credit: A few things that can happen. He can try to rally a new gang, not likely with draco, as he allready has one.

I'v seen them get worse, A lot nastier taking bigger risks to prove themself, putting on britches that are too big ect...I can see that happeing with little ferrit here...

One more thing that is the most common that I saw is the bully becomes a jerk. Now Jerk and Bully are two seprate things. A bully tends to work with a crowd, gang leader, ect...A Jerk is a loner or has few freinds but still acts like a Bully. A Jerk tends to be all talk and a Bully tends to be 50/50.

Any more questions ask your local phycoligist...

Now I see Draco keeping his cred in Slythrin but not in any other houses. All his cediblity is gone in other houses UNLESS they are more scared of him now that they know his Oldman is a Death Eater. He may try using the DE threat on Harry and Ron, but we all know that will never work. On other houses it might work though[the DE threat]. Only time will tell...



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 10:18 pm (#60 of 1825)
Sam, I thought Oldman was Sirius..? Oh, well.... And, Sly, yes the ol'duel in the forrest trick, the oldest trick in the book, which I'm sure Hermione has already read.

As for Draco, I think he may try to increase his gang by adding the other Death Nibblers in Slytherin House. I also think that, as Sam suggested, he will start taking bigger risks, which is why I think we'll finally see some character development in Book 6.



Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 10:19 pm (#61 of 1825)
Sarah, he probably meant "old man," as in father.



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 10:25 pm (#62 of 1825)
It was a joke, Hem....



fidelio - Sep 5, 2003 5:53 am (#63 of 1825)
You, in going back and looking at HRH's interactions with Draco, one thing struck me--Draco started off at odds with Ron--not Harry. Whether it was on orders frm home or not, he started off civil, possibly even friendly (by his standards) with Harry. He mouths off to Hermione, always about her Muggle background, but never about anything else. He mouths off to Harry, too. But his worst insults, from the crack about the Weasleys having red hair, freckles, and more children than they can afford on the way to Hogwarts in the first book, down to the "Weasley is our King" business in OotP, have always been aimed at Ron. Despite his anger at Harry for labeling his father as a DE, and the fact that he blames Harry for the fact that Lucius is now in Azkaban, Draco's biggest fights have always been with Ron, and when remember how their father's feel about each other, it's not surprising. Maybe Draco's role in the next book will be to fight more openly not with Harry, but with Ron. They're both prefects, one was pro-Umbridge and the other wasn't, one was pro-DD and the other wasn't--is anyone besides me beginning to see the contrasts between Draco and Ron pile up? Another possibility is Neville, but there seems to have been a rivalry/fight between Draco and Ron building for a long time--even if Harry has served as a distraction to Draco, as have Hermione and Neville to some extent. Am I reading too much into these interchanges?



Sinister Kittens - Sep 5, 2003 7:06 am (#64 of 1825)
I don't know if this has already been discussed but is anybody else curious about the dark arts bits and pieces stored in the Malfoy mansion? Will Draco and co. try to use them, and does Voldemort know they are there? Will the malfoy mansion become the opposite of Grimmauld Place? (Okay so maybe the last one's a bit far fetched but hopefully you all know what I mean).

*quick edit** - if this should be on another thread please move it..



Joost! - Sep 5, 2003 7:15 am (#65 of 1825)
Why is it that Crabbe and Goyle haven't said a word in any of the books? What's up with that?

They seem to understand Malfoy's subtle jokes, and I don't think they're stupid. It's just that they never speak. Kinda like the Bloody Baron. Could there be a connection?



Ingolfr the Iambic - Sep 5, 2003 10:02 am (#66 of 1825)
Does the Dark Lord have any use for Lucius now that he's in prison? Isn't he a spineless jerk who will rat on the rest of the DE in order to save himself from trouble faster than you can say Mimbulus Mimbletonia? Dosen't the Dark Lord realize this? Isn't Mr. Malfoy now posing the same security risk for the DE as Karkaroff before him? Will the Dark Lord not simply snuff him in order to prevent that? Mightn't that turn Draco around? I don't see any other Slytherin being outstanding enough to lead Slytherin into the unity of the four houses (which is necessary for the downfall of the Dark Lord as clearly stated by the Sorting Hat (IMHO)). Another thought struck me. Are the goodies Draco constantly recieves from home only signs of what a pampered little brat he is or do they maybe contain something in order to keep Draco A) alive B) nasty C) forgetting something he knows about the evil plan and must definetely not yap about in Hogwarts if he isn't to upset it (for instance re: DE infilration at St. Mungo's) or D) something else? Any thoughts? PS. I'm new here so if this is a thoroughly beaten path I apologize.



haymoni - Sep 5, 2003 10:19 am (#67 of 1825)
Lucius tells Draco in the Dark Arts shop that it would not be "prudent" to speak ill of Harry. Draco knew who and what his father was. Draco had a role to play just as Snape does. My question is why would Narcissa send her beloved son back to Hogwart's? (Can they "home school" in the wizarding world??)



Denise S. - Sep 5, 2003 10:55 am (#68 of 1825)
Welcome Ingolfr the Iambic! Don't worry, we'll go easy on you .

While Lucius is no doubt slimy and greasy, with a fully reborn Voldemort out and about to "punish" him if he were to give DE names, I don't think he would give out names to save his own skin. He probably thinks that Voldemort will arranged another breakout from Azkaban, for one. And even if he had escaped by giving names, Voldemort is still at large and would no doubt have "visited" Lucius and would *definitely* AK'ed him for being a traitor.

Until Voldemort faces another downfall, permanent or not, Lucius' lips will be sealed. IMO.



Harold Pinta - Sep 5, 2003 11:19 am (#69 of 1825)
As far Draco (I love the name by the way) is concerned he doesn't seem too intelligent, he, for instamce gives his father away at the Quidditch World Cup, keeps on sending hints to Harry to taunt him, but at the same time he is also revealing things to Harry. He is smarter than Dumb & Dumber (who for some reason pass on to the next year to everyone's suprise), things is he is better at magic, when clearly harry has done more and hermione knows more. We hear or see very little of academic progress (if any). It seems to me that with each book he becomes more stupid. I can see Voldymort using Draco to gain access or get something done at Hogwarts. In the first books I loved to hate Draco, in the last book he seemed more like the eveil comic relief.



S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 1:44 pm (#70 of 1825)
Fidelio: "Draco's biggest fights have always been with Ron, and when remember how their father's feel about each other, it's not surprising. Maybe Draco's role in the next book will be to fight more openly not with Harry, but with Ron."

I like this idea fidelio. How do you see this playing out as far as the trio's future goes?



fidelio - Sep 5, 2003 2:32 pm (#71 of 1825)
Well, Sarah, I'm not sure--this possibility just sort of slid into my head, and I couldn't send it away. We know that Harry's real opponent is Voldilocks, and that Draco's come off #2 in all conflicts he's had with Harry so far. That doesn't mean that Draco won't be in there trying, though--but will Harry have the time and energy to waste on him? Draco now has a strong personal motivation to cause trouble, as opposed to the simple ones of "I don't like him" along with "He's Gryffindor, I'm Slytherin". Maybe Ron will be watching Harry's back to keep Draco the Death-nibbler away from him; I'm not sure. As I said, the concept just sort of drifted in there and wouldn't leave...



Olivia Wood - Sep 5, 2003 4:00 pm (#72 of 1825)
It is interesting... Draco's problem with Harry has always mainly been about his friends, is that going to change? Now that Lucius is in Azkaban, and Draco's putting all the blame on Harry, it seems like he's going to have a real reson to hate him. I can see both Draco forgetting Ron and Hermione, and focusing his anger at Harry, and him bothering Ron and Hermione worse than ever as a way to get to Harry.

I know we really don't have enough information, but I feel strongly inclined to make some comparisons between Draco's emnity with Ron/Harry and Snape's with Sirius/James.



Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2003 12:04 am (#73 of 1825)
Draco has always made his pure-blood heritage much too important. I'm wondering if he might mouth off to Hermione again about her parentage and have it shoved in his face that his father's favorite buddy, Voldie, isn't a pure blood.

That would mean that his father's arrogance about blood has been highly misplaced. I'm not sure if that would make Draco rethink alliances with Dark Arts practioners or not. I don't have the foggiest if it would make him look at his father's behavior in a new light either.

I do think JKR needs to keep Draco around for a while longer because Voldie, Snape, and the death of Sirius aside, Harry can't really have a truly happy sixth year, and Draco does provide some interesting antagonistic moments.

Even if all the Slytherins are supportive of Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle, they will still have their own pressures as far as the rest of the students knowing the truth about their fathers.



Patronus - Sep 6, 2003 1:04 am (#74 of 1825)
I think you´re rightthat he won´t become an angel. But I do think that they all will end up fighting Voldemort together. I´m thinking about the phrase Dumbledore says about the houses must be united to be able to fight Voldemort. I´m sure JKR didn´t just write it without implying something like that has to happen. Of course it´s possible that a lot of the Slytherins will first go over to the dark side. Hopefully we´ll see soon.



Dr Filibuster - Sep 6, 2003 5:07 am (#75 of 1825)
Philosopher's Stone chapter 12;

"I'll get him", said Ron, grinding his teeth at Malfoy's back, "one of these days, I'll get him-"

Is this another case of Ron's words coming true?



Slytherin Prefect - Sep 6, 2003 5:50 am (#76 of 1825)
Draco's never going to change. The only chance Draco had was blown to smitherines when four minutes after his birth his father began his indoctrination into the pureblood ideology. Draco is a tool, and an embarassment to my house. May his existence be nothing more than a footnote in Slytherin, a History.

Lucius Malfoy, though an evil git, is representative of what I envision a Slytherin to be like: he's wily, resourceful, and his command of rhetoric is second to none (save perhaps Dumbledore) in the book series. He plots and schemes, his plans in Book 2 were nothing short of genius and by all accounts should have worked, but that, like everything else he's able to slither his way out of with political connections, a sliver tongue, and whatever else is necessary.

Don't worry. He'll have broken out of Azkaban soon enough.

Crabbe and Goyle are a case I've often wondered about. I wonder mostly whether their stupidity routine is nothing more than an enforced fabrication of keeping Draco's favor. I wonder that if Draco were not in the picture, whether or not they'd honestly be so stupid.



Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 8:04 am (#77 of 1825)
Weeny Owl: "I'm wondering if he might mouth off to Hermione again about her parentage and have it shoved in his face that his father's favorite buddy, Voldie, isn't a pure blood."

HHR might try to tell him this, but I doubt that Draco would believe it. He's likely just push it aside as something they made up to annoy him or try to insult him with. Anything that I hear from my enemies I automatically view skeptically, and if I were Draco, I would believe next to nothing told to me by Harry & Co.



Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 8:12 am (#78 of 1825)
SP, I could see that happening.... have we ever actually heard either of them speak? I remember reading somewhere (SS, I think) that Harry hoped that Goyle (but not Crabbe) was almost as stupid as he was mean, he would fail the end of year exams, but it didn't happen. It would serve Malfoy right to have Crabbe and Goyle scheming behind his back.



Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2003 8:50 am (#79 of 1825)
Denise S: "HHR might try to tell him this, but I doubt that Draco would believe it. He's likely just push it aside as something they made up to annoy him or try to insult him with. Anything that I hear from my enemies I automatically view skeptically, and if I were Draco, I would believe next to nothing told to me by Harry & Co."

That is a good point, Denise, and you're right... he probably wouldn't believe it.

Sometimes it's difficult to remember that the entire Wizarding world doesn't receive the same information that is revealed to the reader.



Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 11:18 am (#80 of 1825)
::confusion::

only read the last book once... feeling dumb... mr malfoy not full blood?

eep...



Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 11:46 am (#81 of 1825)
No--Voldemort is not a pure-blood; however, all the DEs in their pure-blood craze are under the impression that Voldemort is. Draco Malfoy takes great pride in his purebloodedness and refuses to associate himself with known mugglebloods/non-purebloods. However, if Draco (and/or Lucius) knew that Voldemort was *not* a pureblood, that would send them for a reel--if they would only believe it.

But they won't, because Harry (an enemy) would have told them this news that they did want to hear. Therefore, Draco & Co. will not believe Harry & Co., so...yeah. *shrug* Harry could probably shout til he's blue in the face, and it won't phase Draco in the least. At least, I don't think so.



Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 11:54 am (#82 of 1825)
woah... ok, i knew that Moldywarts wasn't a pure blood... totally thought i fell asleep reading Ootp and missed out on Mr Malfoy.

im ok now... Thanks Denise S



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 3:15 pm (#83 of 1825)
I'd like to see Draco redeemed, if only because he is still a child and it is still possible. Despite his big mouth, he hasn't actually done anything evil himself, and I see his as a victim of his father somewhat. Makes you wonder what kept Sirius out of the same pit....

Still, I don't know if JKR will have the time or room to work in a believable redeption of Draco with all else she has left to do. So I won't be surprised if Draco stays on his dark path.





timrew - Sep 6, 2003 4:09 pm (#84 of 1825)
It would be a shame if Draco were to remain on the same path, because he is truly a very one-dimensional character. Although the nasty little tick was always interesting to read about, I now feel that JKR should 'do something' with him.

His redemption would be favourite, because I don't think that he's the right material for a Death Eater - more of a snivelly 'Pettigrew' type. His suddenly becoming a fully fledged, malevolent Death Eater would not be believable at all to me.

But like Professor Kosh says, JKR may have left it a little late.....



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 4:57 pm (#85 of 1825)
While he is a 'snivelly' type, I see him as an abused child, lashing out at the world to win his father's respect. I truly believe evil is something taught, not inherited, and when I see kids like Draco spouting off hurtful, vile things at such a young age (starting in PS/SS) I feel for the child. I truly hope she finds a way to redeem him (it would be complex, and he will definitly have to take more of a center stage for it to be done).





schoff - Sep 6, 2003 5:07 pm (#86 of 1825)
I think a good way to put Draco on Harry's side would be for him to witness his father's death, preferably at the hands of Voldemort. Especially if Lucius' death wasn't in battle, but because he displeased his master.

Draco at this point seems pretty irredeemable. He's made a lot of bad decisions, but for me, his path was cemented when he was bragging about Cedric's death at the end of GoF. That showed his true colors. All his other decisions could be catagorized as childhood bullying, or attempts to gain power/influence (a Slytherin trait, and not necessarily a bad one). Anyone who gloats about an innocent death is definitely in a dark place that's probably hard to escape.



Michiel Prior - Sep 7, 2003 7:35 am (#87 of 1825)

While he is a 'snivelly' type, I see him as an abused child, lashing out at the world to win his father's respect.


Abused? Can't be: his father seems to be very fond of him, buying him a place in the Slytherin Quidditch team with those Nimbus Two Thousand and a Half broomsticks, you know. I mean: Draco is always bragging about his father's money, looking down on poor people like Ron, Hagrid, Lupin. He can't brag about it if he doesn't get things to show off with, which he does, actually. I don't know if Draco really tries to win his father's respect, could be, though, but what he *does* is trying to win other people's respect by emphasizing his father's accomplishments.

Michiel Prior.



azi - Sep 7, 2003 8:41 am (#88 of 1825)
But in the end being spoilt and protected is, in a way, worse than not having everything and being exposed to the outside world. Draco's bragging shows insecurity because he can't think of any real known talent to show to people. Lucius was mad at his son in CoS because Hermione did better at him in exams. Draco does have to prove himself to his father and is expected to make something more of his life than being a criminal.

I suppose it depends on how you define abused. I would say Draco does not have the family 'love' the Weasleys etc. have and so suffers because of it.



fidelio - Sep 7, 2003 9:46 am (#89 of 1825)
I wouldn't call Draco abused, partly because working for the welfare department for 20 years gives you a different perspective on what's abuse and what's just poor parenting. I suspect his father's rather distant--whether this is because he's preoccupied with 'grown-up things' and can't find the time to invest in his son, or whether he simply never developed the skills you need to display and work on having the sort of emotional closeness you see among the Weasleys I can't say. Both Narcissa and Lucius have probably find it easier to display affection by material means. This doesn't mean that the Malfoy family doesn't have normally family feelings--just that they have no idea about how to express them in a happy and constructive manner. Consider this possibility: Draco has grown up watching his parents use their wealth and position to influence people, gain allies and make "friends". Until he goes away to school, he has no idea that the world could work any other way. Once he runs up against Hogwarts, and especially HRH, he's got to be at a total loss. The people in Hufflepuff, trying to be as fair and decent to everyone as possible, will give him a chance--but no more of a chance than anyone else. Ravenclaw--they're impressed by brains and creativity. He's not stupid, but he's not the brightest out there, or the best student, so his chances of impressing them aren't great. Gryffindor and Slytherin have been at odds, more or less seriously for hundreds of years--probably not as bitterly before the rise of Voldilocks--but they aren't going to be impressed, just on principal. And in Slytherin? I don't think Draco rules in Slytherin. As long as his father was a useful connection for job seekers wanting a valuable reference, as long as they needed the best new brooms for the Quidditch team, as long as Draco has something to offer, but no longer than that, he'll have clout in his House. He probably is just as bad about throwing his weight around there as he is outside of his House--but will it do him any good?



Madame Librarian - Sep 9, 2003 9:09 pm (#90 of 1825)
How's this for a Draco character/plot development:

Draco, as some have pointed out, really taunts Ron and Hermione much worse than he picks on Harry. Harry, in any event, is merely annoyed by him, whereas Ron really goes ballistic, to the point of not thinking straight. A confrontation occurs wherein Ron is so goaded by Draco that he attacks him with intent to do major harm or even kill. Harry intervenes in the nick of time and literally saves Draco's poor excuse for a life. (Hmmm...remind you of another scene where someone saves the life of a known git?) Now, ha-ha, Draco owes a life debt Harry just as Wormtail does. This fact will come into play in the final resolution because Draco, despite his wish to totally commit to the Dark Side, will have this teeny crack in an evil nature.

We know that Wormtail's life debt is somehow going to come up again, so wouldn't it be an elegant twist if Harry had two "markers" to call in?

Just imagining an interesting direction for Draco.

Ciao. Barb



TGF - Sep 9, 2003 9:37 pm (#91 of 1825)
fidelio, about Draco's standing in Slytherin.

Remember that Draco is a Slytherin Prefect... I would say that by itself means that he's a fair amount of clout within Slytherin. Also, we've yet to meet or even see a Slytherin that hasn't either liked him a lot (Millicent, Pansy), been his abject slave (Crabbe and Goyle) or at least been on rather good terms with him (The Slytherin Quidditch team)... Even Nott, the Mystery Boy who's yet to speak, seemed to be in his camp, though as always Nott is open to debate.

Draco's their Seeker and quite often their spokesman... And I'm sure he earns them loads of points VIA Snape as well. I'd say that he's a fair amount of clout within Slytherin.



Slytherin Prefect - Sep 9, 2003 11:00 pm (#92 of 1825)

Remember that Draco is a Slytherin Prefect...



sigh* Draco's a Slytherin prefect. I'm Slytherin Prefect. I didn't go earning that capital P for nothing... ^_^

Draco does seem to have a high standing in Slytherin, but I feel that has a lot more to do with Lucius than Draco. Crabbe and Goyle Sr. are friends of Lucius, and many of the sons of death eaters have fathers who spend time with Lucius. To top it all off, Lucius is a prominent man in high standing with the Ministry of Magic.

Lucius's coattails are so long they extend to his son and all his little toolish friends.



OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 1:52 am (#93 of 1825)
Wow, some really good stuff...see what happens when I leave a thread alone for awhile...anyway, gotta put my two knuts worth in Wink

I've been wondering myself about if the Malfoy manor was serving as DE HQ. It would make sense in a way, Bellatrix is Narcissa's direct relative, seems like Lucius has lots of toys for them all to play with, and Lucius seemed to be the one in charge during the raid at the DOM. Just a thought I had Speaking of the DOM, remember when Harry was taunting Bellatrix (one of my very favorite parts of the book) and he told her about Voldy being halfblood. She absolutely freaked, but Lucius didn't react at all (except to deflect her curse), he didn't deny it or stand up for his master. That intrigued me, I would have expected some kind of rebuttal from him on the matter. Kinda makes ya go hmmmmmmmm...





Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 2:06 am (#94 of 1825)
I think Lucius is one of the few DEs who know Voldie used to be Tom Riddle, a half-blood (or mudblood). He did have Riddle's diary. Volde is Lucius's vehicle to power, plus it gives him a chance to engage in his pleasures and prejudices. I guess he just ignores it. Some of Hitler's SS knew he was 1/4 Jewish.





haymoni - Sep 10, 2003 7:55 am (#95 of 1825)
Back to Draco, doesn't Dumbledore pick the Prefects? I found myself questioning his choice, picking the child of a known Death Eater. Dumbledore compared the relationship between James and Snape to that of Harry and Draco. Perhaps there is hope for the young Malfoy yet.



Denise P. - Sep 10, 2003 8:11 am (#96 of 1825)
Even if Dumbledore picks them, it is not like he has a wide selection in the 5th year Slytherins. 3 of the ones we know of ARE children of known DE. Of the 3, we have never heard 2 speak (Crabbe and Goyle). Perhaps Dumbledore was picking the best of a bad lot? I don't think that this indicates the possibility of redemption for young Master Malfoy.



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 10:21 am (#97 of 1825)
I thought the Heads of House chose a few people and then sent their lists to the Headmaster and he made the final decision. I get that feeling because of Tonk's comment about her Head of House not thinking she had what it took to become a prefect. If that's the case, Snape probably had a lot to do with Draco getting the position....



haymoni - Sep 10, 2003 12:10 pm (#98 of 1825)
I forgot about Tonks' comment, S.E. Jones - Dumbledore may have allowed Snape's recommendation of Draco so that Lucius would still think Snape is still "his lapdog".



megfox - Sep 10, 2003 2:53 pm (#99 of 1825)
***Crazy theory alert!! Crazy theory alert!!!***

Okay, someone made a comment about Crabbe and Goyle plotting behind Draco's back, and it almost made me squeal...What if they are the ones that are the "good" Slytherins? They have never actually done anything bad, they are just really big and boorish looking...even that time with Neville in SS, and with Umbridge in OoP, they were just doing what they were told (or what was necessary to keep from blowing their cover). If they were "spies" (maybe they report to Snape!) they would have to do certain things to maintain their cover!! Perhaps they were chosen to keep an eye on Draco, and make sure that he doesn't let Voldemort get into the school because he is Lucius' son.

Okay, maybe not...but it just popped in there and it had to be let out...

I do heartily agree, though, that Draco is a prefect in order to keep a certain former Death Eater content and to let him know that "his interests" are being looked after at Hogwarts. How off the deep end would Lucius go if his son was not a prefect? Snape would know this, and I am positive that Dumbledore would too. The fewer reasons that Dumbledore et al can give Malfoy Sr. to come storming down the door to his office, the easier it should be to keep his influence out of Hogwarts.



TGF - Sep 10, 2003 4:04 pm (#100 of 1825)
I always advise caution when looking for depth within Crabbe and Goyle. It would certainly be a MASSIVE change in character for them to go from idiotic lumps of muscle into cunning spies for the Order. Besides, Draco might receive regular correspondance from his father, but I doubt its anything *really* important. After all, Owls can be intercepted and I think Lucius has a healthy supply of caution within him.

Besides, who would put them up to this? I can't see Snape recruiting spies within the student body, nor Dumbledore...

I agree with the point about Draco being made prefect for his father's sake. Makes the most amount of sense and who knows? Maybe he was the most qualified person in Slytherin...

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megfox - Sep 10, 2003 4:10 pm (#101 of 1825)
Hence the stars and "Crazy theory alert!!!"



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 4:11 pm (#102 of 1825)
Maybe Snape picked Draco because he's genuinely fond of the kid, for some strange reason.....



TGF - Sep 10, 2003 4:23 pm (#103 of 1825)
Nah, I don't think Snape likes Draco... Snape just appeases Lucius in every way he can. After all, we saw in book 2 how glowingly Draco spoke of Snape, and even a man like Lucius is bound to like someone who is enriching their son.



Slytherin Prefect - Sep 10, 2003 4:40 pm (#104 of 1825)
Don't forget that illegal bludger hit during the Gryffindor/Slytherin quidditch game... I think that either Crabbe or Goyle might have more to them than we are led to believe, but I certainly don't think either of them are 'good' Slytherins...



Maollelujah - Sep 10, 2003 4:41 pm (#105 of 1825)
I think many of you underestimate Draco.

He's rich, he's funny (don't tell me that he doesn't make you laugh), handsome (at least to Pansy), an accomplished wizard and probably one of the brighter Slytherin students. He definitely seems to be the ring-leader of the fifth-year Slytherins.

I am sure he was picked by Dumbledore as Prefect, because he was the best son of an evil wizard for the job.



OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 5:28 pm (#106 of 1825)
Okay, I can buy into the Draco being a prefect to keep Lucius happy, kinda. I expected Draco to get the badge, like I expected Hermione to get one. He's the best of the worst, or the best at being the worst, however you choose to look at it. Which brings me to Pansy...did she get to be Prefect by association, or does she have some redeeming qualities that we haven't seen yet??

As for Crabbe and Goyle spying behind Malfoy's back, I find myself highly doubtful. If it comes about that they are the "good" Slytherins, forget the badge, give them boys an Oscar!



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 5:41 pm (#107 of 1825)
Well, how many 5th year Slytherin girls did we know? I think it was pretty much Pansy or Mullicent (who seems to be a bit of a female Crabbe or Goyle)....



Hem Hem - Sep 10, 2003 5:47 pm (#108 of 1825)
We know that Pansy always has a group of her Slytherin girls behind her to laugh at her jokes. However, she and Millicent are the only girls in the Sorting ceremony that were put in Slytherin. Of course, some people may say that Blaise Zabini is also a girl, but I find that rather doubtful, and that discussion has been pretty drawn out on another thread already.

Anyway, if you had to pick a prefect from Pansy or Millicent, Pansy is the top choice; even if she isn't the fastest snitch on the pitch.



Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 9:55 pm (#109 of 1825)
I thought the Heads of House chose a few people and then sent their lists to the Headmaster and he made the final decision. I get that feeling because of Tonk's comment about her Head of House not thinking she had what it took to become a prefect. If that's the case, Snape probably had a lot to do with Draco getting the position....

Good idea, SE! I'd like to put a small twist on it (very small) and suggest that DD mearly has to approve of the prefect choices, rather than choose himself. The prefect job seems to be one that the heads of House would be in a better position to do, and something a headmaster wouldn't have time for (I mean, despite DD's seeming omniscience, I doubt most headmasters know all their students well enough to make those choices, but the Heads of House would). I see it as something the headmaster usually just signs off on, but in Harry's case suggested a change to McGonagall. Snape made his choices, for his reasons (as many have discussed), and DD had no objection.

Meg: That theory is certainly a bit crazy, but perhaps there is something to it. I don't suggest that Crabbe and Goyle are spies (they do seem a bit too dim for that), but I see them as possible 'good Slytherins'. They may, in the future, decide that Draco (and their own dads) go too far from the 'fun' of schoolyard bullying, and don't really want to hurt anyone. I don't see this as requiring a massive change in character, as we really don't know anything about thier character. (Note: I am not disputing TGF, as his point was about C&G being spies, which would show cunning and depth far beyond what they have demonstrated, but showing that, with a small change, the theory may be more feasible)

As for the Bludger incident, being unsporting isn't necessarily a sign of evil. It used to happen all the time when I played American football in school. Good kids would get very hyped up into the game, and occasionally let their passions overwhelm them to the point of late hits and the rare fight.



Denise S. - Sep 11, 2003 5:00 pm (#110 of 1825)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 5:03 pm
Prof. Kosh: "They may, in the future, decide that Draco (and their own dads) go too far from the 'fun' of schoolyard bullying, and don't really want to hurt anyone. I don't see this as requiring a massive change in character, as we really don't know anything about thier character."

This is a bit of departure, but Prof. Kosh's quote brought something to mind--
we hope(d) that kids such as Draco and Croyle will somehow, despite their tendency to antagonize and show their vast ignorance, see the error of their and their parents' ways and suddenly see the light and switch to the path of the holy and righteous. Unfortunately, here's how the story is already going:

Draco was the son of a Death Eater. This Death Eater believed that only purebloods were worth anything, and taught his son Draco this for over 15 years. When Draco went to school, he met some wizards and witches who were not purebloods, or even worse, so-called "blood traitors" who mixed with wizards of Muggle descent. Draco held them in contempt, convinced that he was better than them because he was pureblood, convinced that his father the Death Eater was correct in what he had taught his son. The End.

Now, for a quick exercise--replace the words "Death Eater" with "Klan member." Replace "pureblood" with "white." Replace "Muggle" or "not purebloods" with "non-white" or "black" or "Jewish," or anything that does not sit well with the KKK. When it's put this way, I see nearly no hope for Draco or Croyle or any of the Death Nibblers. They have been brainwashed from an early age; the idea of the superiority of purebloodedness is part of their culture, something extremely hard to change in people. Draco & Co. will hardly see the error of their ways, because not only are their ways more comfortable, but they give them a highly addictive power trip.



Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2003 7:48 pm (#111 of 1825)
Denise S - "Draco & Co. will hardly see the error of their ways, because not only are their ways more comfortable, but they give them a highly addictive power trip. "

I think that is a telling statement. Part of the Slytherin mindset is power, and unless something really drastic happens, I think they're "Dark Arts prone" for life.

Even if Voldie somehow killed Lucius, Draco would probably find a way to blame it on Harry.



haymoni - Sep 12, 2003 8:08 am (#112 of 1825)
I brought this up earlier but I didn't see any comments on it.

Why would Narcissa allow Draco to come back to school?

To keep up appearances is the only thing I can come up with. It is obvious his father is a DE - would they claim they did not know anything about the activities of Lucius?



schoff - Sep 12, 2003 10:30 am (#113 of 1825)
Despite the fact that Draco is probably going to have to endure some not-so-nice experiences, he does still need an education. Taking him out of school would wreck havoc with any future career goals he (or his parents) might have. Draco is the type of kid who ends up in a career that would require a NEWT level education.

And before you bring it up (HAH! Beating you to the punch!): I doubt Narcissa would send Draco to Durmstrang for 3 reasons: First, it's far away, and she's controlling--she'd want her son to be near her, especially since his dad isn't home; Second, Karkaroff's not at Durmstrang any more, so we have no idea if that place is the same as in GoF--I doubt a new DE's been put in charge; and Third, Lucius is probably going to be home soon, so Narcissa would want Draco to be near when that happens.



haymoni - Sep 12, 2003 12:30 pm (#114 of 1825)
The controlling thing is exactly why I thought Nacissa wouldn't send him. My first thought was that she wouldn't send him to school at all. However, if Lapdog Snape is there to protect her precious baby, maybe she would allow it.



TGF - Sep 12, 2003 2:25 pm (#115 of 1825)
"Lucius is going to be home soon"

I don't think Lucius can just 'go home'... I mean, if he escapes from Azkaban (I assume that he won't get out legally... Fudge isn't going to be wanting to be corrupt right after being publicly revealed as an idiot), wouldn't the aurors.. .you know, watch the place? He can't just leave Azkaban, walk down Knockturn alley and buy some muggle-torture equipment and then waltz on back to his mansion... If anything, he'll be to Draco as Sirius was to Harry.



S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2003 2:29 pm (#116 of 1825)
Maybe Lucius can live in that secret cupboard thing under the Malfoy's drawingroom...



Sinister Kittens - Sep 12, 2003 2:48 pm (#117 of 1825)
Ahh Sarah - my secret bug bear! Exactly WHAT is under there and will Voldie use it? - does he know it's there? Does Draco know what is under there (I'm guessing yes on this one), and it will be used be the DA? TGF I think your right Lucius cannot just 'go home' but he is far too slippery a character to disappear without a trace.



Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 3:09 pm (#118 of 1825)
Ooooh... "he'll be to Draco as Sirius was to Harry." Interesting.

I can't wait to see more of Narcissa. The 'it's too far away' reason for Draco not going to Durmstrang never sat well with me. They're wizards, they can apparate, they can use the fireplaces to communicate, they can travel by Floo. What difference does it make if dear Draco is 20 miles away or 2,000? There's got to be another reson. I know someone somewhere suggested that it was because Karkaroff was a traitorous Ex-Death Eater... Maybe Lucius just wanted a little spy on Dumbledore's camp, or maybe a reson to keep in touch with Snape?

On a totally different note, how many invisibility cloaks do you think the Malfoys have? If I were Harry I'd get a magical eye and start drinking from a private hip flask.



Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2003 3:51 pm (#119 of 1825)
It's possible that Draco was lying about the whole Durmstrang thing. Maybe HE'S the one who didn't want to go. After all, with his father having Fudge in his pocket, Draco enjoys many pretentions as regards his position with the big names, and he loves shoving everyone's noses in it.

I'm sure Narcissa would prefer to keep her darling boy near, but if Lucius really wanted Draco in Durmstrang, he'd probably have been there. It probably suited Lucius's purposes to have Draco in Hogwarts... after all, being a Death Eater, Lucius could train Draco in the Dark Arts himself.



Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 14, 2003 5:26 am (#120 of 1825)
I just dont see Lucius making the time or having the inclanation to teach his son dark arts. I think he would have to make his father proud of him first or show some superior skill. He may pick up on stuff because dark arts were always practiced at home.



haymoni - Sep 15, 2003 5:47 am (#121 of 1825)
Weeny Owl - I thought Draco's comments about Durmstrang sounded like a boast as well. Look at what he said about the O.W.L. tester - "it's not what you know, but who you know" - Neville shot that down but it does seem that Draco needs to toot his own horn.



Professor Kosh - Sep 15, 2003 8:00 pm (#122 of 1825)
A bit off topic, but someone brought up a cupboard in the Malfoy home. I don't remember anything about this. Could someone explain or give a reference?



megfox - Sep 15, 2003 8:22 pm (#123 of 1825)
In Burgin and Bourkes (I think that's the name of the shop) when Lucius is selling some things from his manor, he says that they would be embarassing if the were found at his home. When he leaves, the shopkeeper drops his "oily" attitude and mutters something about "there are more dark objects under your drawing room floor, if the rumors about you are true." I think this is what they were tlaking about. It would be a perfect place for Lucius to hide, dontcha think?



schoff - Sep 15, 2003 11:12 pm (#124 of 1825)
Edited by Sep 15, 2003 11:15 pm
Meg: It was actually in the "Polyjuice Potion" chapter, when Harry and Ron are impersonating Crabbe and Goyle. The shopkeeper just mentions Malfoy's "manor" (italics not mine, but JKR's).

Draco: "You know the Ministry of Magic raided our manor last week?...Luckily, they didn't find much. Father's got some very valuable Dark Arts stuff. But luckily, we've got our own secret chamber under the drawing-room floor--" (Am. p.224)

Ron was excited about this news and wanted to tell his dad. This begs the question, why didn't he? As far as we know, the Malfoys were never raided again. Draco's life would have been unpleasant a lot earlier if Ron had told his dad.

Man, I've got to get this trivia out of my mind! I don't even have to search for these quotes anymore! The books just magically open up to the page I want!



Becky Palmer - Sep 16, 2003 4:01 am (#125 of 1825)
I feel that Draco is at the point now, where unless something drastic happens (like what probably happened with Snape) he's not going to change his opinions and will follow in his daddy's footsteps. Case in point; he laughed, joked, and made light of the murder of Cedric Diggory and did so in front of the boy who witnessed the murder. The family of Sirius Black were pure bloods and seemed to spout the same pure blood racist nonsense, but Sirius made a choice to repudiate such idiocy. Again, as JKR always emphasises, it's the choices one makes in life...........Draco hasn't rejected this racist pap at all. He has embraced it. I feel he has gone too far to change now.



Sinister Kittens - Sep 16, 2003 6:36 am (#126 of 1825)
Proffesor Kosh - it was something that I had been wondering about.. please find below the original query...

"I don't know if this has already been discussed but is anybody else curious about the dark arts bits and pieces stored in the Malfoy mansion? Will Draco and co. try to use them, and does Voldemort know they are there? Will the malfoy mansion become the opposite of Grimmauld Place? (Okay so maybe the last one's a bit far fetched but hopefully you all know what I mean).



quick edit** - if this should be on another thread please move it"



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 16, 2003 1:09 pm (#127 of 1825)
He might have told Arthur, but whose to say that the Ministry would allow him to conduct another raid? Malfoy spreads his money around the Ministry in order to get what he wants done, and it would seem easy for him - in my eyes - to simply complain that he had already done his duty and allowed his house to be searched once, why should he have to go about it again? "Where did Weasley get this information? His children? Children come up with all sorts of things that have no basis in fact, yadda, yadda...." Couldn't you just hear it?



Sinister Kittens - Sep 16, 2003 2:19 pm (#128 of 1825)
Oh yeah, definitely, but now that Malfoy Snr is in Askaban? Will the forgotten room be remembered?



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 16, 2003 2:24 pm (#129 of 1825)
*wait a minute, where is it written that Malfoy, Sr. is in Azkaban?* It could very well be that I missed something in my 2 readings of OoP and I'll catch it this time. I think it was said (I have the book here but I can't find what I'm talking about) that it was likely that all the old DEs would be incarcerated, but Malfoy is one of those rich, slippery people who seems to miss it every time. If he is arrested (and even if he isn't) it's likely that Arthur can recall the search of Malfoy manor...hopefully this will occur over the summer and Malfoy's goose will be cooked.



Sinister Kittens - Sep 16, 2003 2:40 pm (#130 of 1825)
Malfoy Jnr mentions to HP in 'The Second War Begins' Pg 750 UK ed. - last chapter OotP,"You wait. I'll have you. You cant land my father in prison".................. " "The Dementors have left Askaban..... Dad and the others'll be out in no time"

** sorry about the delay , I had to go downstairs and fetch my book...***



Olivia Wood - Sep 16, 2003 6:09 pm (#131 of 1825)
I agree about Arthur not being allowed to conduct another raid. He probably didn't even ask, but just kept the information to himself for the time being.

With Lucius gone, maybe we'll see Draco taking it upon himself to clean the place out before the Ministry gets a chance to confiscate all Lucuis' dark toys. I have a bad feeling that with Lucius in Azkaban and the school against him, dear Draco will get a lot more reckless.

You know what I'd love to happen? I'd love to see Draco get his hands on some Polyjuice Potion and infiltrate the Gryffindor common room. Wouldn't it be hilarious to see Ron's hair fade into blond and his face get all pointy midway through Harry making a speech about something? Or maybe he can use it to go to infiltrate the DA meetings? And then he'll blow his cover by not being able to act nice.... Smile Okay, maybe it's just me.



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 17, 2003 8:45 am (#132 of 1825)
Have you ever read the "Draco Dormiens" series Olivia? I think you'd like them. It's a fanfiction you can find on most search engines.



Olivia Wood - Sep 17, 2003 2:31 pm (#133 of 1825)
I think I did, actually, a long time ago... I don't really remember much about it, except that I really liked it. So yeah. Smile



Pippa - Sep 28, 2003 4:41 pm (#134 of 1825)
I think Darco is Hot and he makes a great amazing bouncing ferret hehehe



Denise P. - Sep 28, 2003 5:41 pm (#135 of 1825)
Pippa, please go read "Philosophy of the Forum" before posting any more. This site is not the place to discuss how "hot" the characters are.



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 29, 2003 4:42 pm (#136 of 1825)
Except, of course, on April's Fools. And you might want to check your spelling too...unless that was done on purpose?

~Caitlin



Balderdash - Oct 7, 2003 1:17 pm (#137 of 1825)
btw does anyone know why Rowling called Draco "Never" and why she had his name in the school motto?



S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2003 2:22 pm (#138 of 1825)
When did she call him "Never"? And it's not exactly his name in the motto, Draco means dragon or serpent.... It's "Never tickle a sleeping dragon"....



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 4:41 pm (#139 of 1825)
Your kidding? Thats what the school mott means! Everybody says Malfoy means bad faith in french, but in the letter I got from JK it says that Malfoy is completely made up.



Balderdash - Oct 8, 2003 1:58 pm (#140 of 1825)
ah. well I'm no latin scholar. so its dragon then? Why do you think he's a Dragon?



S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2003 2:13 pm (#141 of 1825)
Um, that's not what I meant. Draco means dragon or serpent, in this case specifically dragon (JK said so in an interview). But, I think his name comes from Dracon (or Draco in English) who was a Athenian ruler, known for his cruelty (he was basically a dictator who gave out the death penalty for, well, everything). He wrote the first set of laws in Athens ca. 621 BC. It's from his name that we get the word "draconian" which is applied to someone who is cruel or merciless.

EDIT: Hey Tim, maybe this is yet another of those instances of unregistered animagi that you love so much. (insert sarcasm here) Draco's a dragon animagus.....



Pippa - Oct 8, 2003 2:18 pm (#142 of 1825)
Go read his information page in the lexicon characetr section then you will find out what his name means. i know it means dragon and snake jk named him that because he is in slytherin and he sometimes acts like a snake in his personality.



S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2003 2:44 pm (#143 of 1825)
Pippa, you may want to read the Philosophy of this Forum thread. We like to use proper grammar and capitalization so as to make our posts easier to read for our members who don't use English as a first language or who are very young. If you have any questions regarding the Philosophy, just ask. You'll find we're a very understanding group. Welcome aboard and tell us about yourself in the Introduction thread....



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 8, 2003 3:31 pm (#144 of 1825)
All Harry needs to do is hit Draco in the eye...........



timrew - Oct 19, 2003 5:11 am (#145 of 1825)
Sarah, are you saying that Draco could possibly be the dragon Harry faced in the Tri-Wizard tournament? No wonder that dragon was so mad!

Sorry I'm so late in replying, by the way, I just got back off holiday.



S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2003 1:18 pm (#146 of 1825)
It's good to have you back, Tim.
Only a distinctive wit like yours would have caught that....



Pippa - Oct 22, 2003 12:56 pm (#147 of 1825)
Oh sorry about the miss-spellings sometimes I type to fast and I do not catch my mistakes.



S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2003 1:40 pm (#148 of 1825)
That's okay, Pippa. You can slow down and take the time to re-read your posts. I think we'll still be here when you get done...



night41 - Oct 22, 2003 4:43 pm (#149 of 1825)
I not sure if this is covered yet, but i this could happen in book 7. Draco tries to become frinds with Harry and harry falls for it alittle. But Draco is really spying on Harry and telling everything he hears to his good old dad.



Denise S. - Oct 22, 2003 7:17 pm (#150 of 1825)
If that ends up happening, I think that they would have to start becoming on friendly terms with each other starting in book 6 because of the enmity between the two of them. And because Harry and Draco seemed to be the farthest from "friendship" status with each other as ever at the end of OotP, I doubt that'll happen.

Then again, stranger things have happened, so it can't be completely discounted .

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 151 to 200

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Choices - Oct 25, 2003 9:44 am (#151 of 1825)
I do not usual delve into wild speculation, but if I did......here is what I thought about the other night when I had too much time on my hands. Remember in GoF when Mad-Eye Moody/Barty Crouch, Jr. turns Draco into a ferret? Well, aren't ferrets part of the weasel family? I think in one of the coming books, Mr. and Mrs. Malfoy are going to be killed or sent to Azkaban and Draco, who makes a great ferret, is going to be adopted by the wonderful Weasleys. With them, his life will be brought into better perspective and he will actually become a nice person. Well, it makes as much sense as some of the other "wild speculation" I've read. LOL Just kidding.....



Ladybug220 - Oct 25, 2003 5:54 pm (#152 of 1825)
Edited by Oct 25, 2003 5:55 pm
Hey, maybe he'll be turned into a ferret and then be picked up by a hawk or another large, rodent eating bird....



Catherine - Oct 25, 2003 7:57 pm (#153 of 1825)
Like I posted in the Hippogriff thread, I keep hoping that Malfoy will turn into a ferret, either by animagus means or otherwise, and then Buckbeak will gobble him up. With hair that bad, he needs to go away...only joking! Don't throw things at me!

That would all be too easy, and therefore unlikely in the Rowling world.

I do think that Draco, like Kreacher and Snape, and maybe even like Voldemort, has been made what he is, to some extent. His father definitely bullies him, but on the other hand, Harry has been bullied and has made different choices for his life. Remember Ron, talking about Snape, saying, "Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots"? Change in character is unlikely, I think, although circumstances may change.

I, for one, am prepared for more mean smirks and underhanded ways from Draco.



S.E. Jones - Oct 26, 2003 9:42 pm (#154 of 1825)
Okay, Catherine Allen said on the "When will we see that again" thread, I have two posts about the Hand of Glory and my thoughts about it on October 7th where I quote a Rowling interview about Draco being in possession of the Hand of Glory. And Popkin responded with Catherine, since we see Draco steal two objects (a page from a book in Flourish and Blotts, and an object in the Slytherin common room) in the movie COS, several people expect to see Draco appear as a thief in later books.

I found this very interesting as I had never got the correlation before. What and from whom could Draco possibly steal something that would make this relevant to the plot? Ideas?



Catherine - Oct 27, 2003 6:34 am (#155 of 1825)
OOh, S.E. Jones, I'm so glad you asked that! Mostly this relates to Draco, so bear with me, I have to fill in some gaps. I thought it was interesting when I read that October, 2000 interview with Rowling where she said, "Draco has the Hand of Glory," and I was, WHAT? So I reread CoS carefully and came up with this theory.

In CoS, Harry (while hiding in a cabinet in Mr. Borgin's shop) sees Draco in the shop with his father, and Draco asks for the Hand of Glory (pp51-52, American hardback). We know that Lucius and Mr. Borgin haggle over the items Lucius is selling, while Draco browses. We never are specifically told that Draco steals the Hand, or that Lucius accedes to Draco's request and buys it for him. But, Draco definitely noticed, and wanted the Hand of Glory. I find it interesting that the "selling dark items scene" was included in the DVD cut scene section, where Harry encounters the Hand for himself. I thought maybe the movie showed Draco stealing in the Slytherin Common Room (which wasn't in CoS, although Draco does try to steal the Remembrall in SS) to show how he could have obtained it. Otherwise, besides making him more unlikeable, it doesn't seem to make much sense showing Draco as a thief in this movie when it wasn't in the book.

The reason I brought this up is because in my post about "Hand of Glory or Red Herring," I mentioned that I thought perhaps I had found the "something small" that was in Cos that plays a role later. Specifically, it relates to the scorch marks that are never explained.

I thought this might be important because often Harry will "forget" to tell his friends something, or he gets interrupted and never finishes his thought. In this case, after Mrs. Norris was petrified, Harry, Ron, and Hermione go to investigate the scene. Harry was crawling on the floor, and sees scorch marks, starts to tell the others, when Hermione interrupts, pointing out the fleeing spiders (p. 154). I thought perhaps the candle in the Hand of Glory could have caused scorch marks.

Draco is quick to point a finger at Percy in the Polyjuice Potion scene, saying that Percy had been sneaking around. I assumed that Draco would know this because he himself had been sneaking around, trying to find the Chamber of Secrets. Draco seems like he wants to find it, or to help the heir of Slytherin. The Hand of Glory would be handy in rule-breaking, yes?

So I think more is going on with Draco then we have seen so far in the books.



timrew - Oct 28, 2003 6:11 pm (#156 of 1825)
I hope something will be done to raise Draco from his one-dimensionality (if there's such a word!).

He has been an interesting character to read about; but by book 5, I think he's getting a bit "samey". Bitter, twisted, jealous, sniping out the same insults.

Draco needs something to develop his character - even if it's into even more of a "git".

I like the Hand Of Glory theory. This would make Draco a two-dimensional, thieving git.

I started off thinking that he might be redeemed - but now I've changed my opinion. I now think that he's an unredeemable, thick plonker who will end up a sad loser.....but there again, nobody's perfect.



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 28, 2003 9:19 pm (#157 of 1825)
There no way Draco could change, JK has put him in situations where he could change his mind about his father, but never has. And the whole "your dead"(to harry after the Mom aftermath)sort of mended my mind to thinking there is no hope for Draco.....



timrew - Oct 29, 2003 5:49 pm (#158 of 1825)
You're right, LongLiveSnuffles. The, "You're dead", comment was nothing more than silly.

His Dad is banged up in Azkaban (and Crabbe, Goyle and Nott's), so Draco can't boast about, "My Father is the Bees Knees at the MOM" any more. The only supporters he has are a gang of three or four Slytherin cronies.

In fact, I wonder what JKR is going to do with Draco, Crabbe and Goyle in book 6? (I think Nott will be shown to be a good Slytherin). But as for the other three, they're backed into a corner - nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. The Death Nibblers beckon!



Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:55 am (#159 of 1825)
Response to TGF: In Draco's defense it is not his fault that he is evil jerk, but the fault of his family. He was raised in an environment where "the one who has the gold makes the rules." His father is always paying people off for something and that is clearly evident in relation to Draco when he makes the Slytherin team in COS and coincidentally, NOT, the whole team has brand new brooms. Also, you can compare his probable future services to Voldemort to religion. For most people, whatever religion their parents raised them to be, if any, is usually what religion they will retain through life. Lucious is a huge supporter of Voldemort and Draco is a huge supporter of his father, so Draco will almost definitely be a supporter of Voldemort and continue through life as an ignorant little GIT!



Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 12:05 pm (#160 of 1825)
I think that Draco needs to be evil. He is Harry's antagonist and the series wouldn't be the same if Draco crossed over to the good side. The only way that Draco could not turn out to be a supporter of Voldemort is if he sees Voldemort kill someone that he cares about, maybe his father for messing up, but even then I think he will and should always remain the intolerable little git that he is.



timrew - Nov 1, 2003 6:26 pm (#161 of 1825)
You're right. I can't see Draco ever rising to the level of his Dad in evil cunning.

I think he must take after his mother, Narcissa, who we don't know much about - except that she is the sister of Bellatrix; and personally, I think she's one ferret short of a sandwich.

As you say, Fluxsnare7, "I think he will and should always remain the intolerable little git that he is."



Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 2, 2003 4:09 am (#162 of 1825)
Like Tim, I hope Draco finally shows some kind of development, some *real* nastiness. Something! But I don't think so; he doesn't seem to have the brains or the ambition to follow too closely in his father's footsteps, and he no longer has Daddy's status as a 'brag factor'. He'd done *nothing* throughout the series except run about like an irritating yapping dog - all bark with very little bite - almost like JKR *needed* the antagonist at the start of the series, but now that there is a real threat in the new and improved Voldy, she doesn't need him anymore and has "parked" him, development wise.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 2, 2003 8:12 am (#163 of 1825)
While I agree that Draco hasn't developed much throughout the series, (I know some real-life peole like that), I think that he does serve a purpose. We keep seeing Harry get hit with blow after blow, especially in book five with Umbridge's whacked out cruelty, Dubledore's seeming dismissal, friends believing lies about him... the list goes on! I think that Draco's role in the books is to give us the opportunity to see Harry triumph occasionally, and to show us that adversaries his own age are something of a joke compared to what he is facing. Draco is kind of the 'proof' to the reader that Harry is growing up and becoming a man much faster than his peers.

I think that we will see a bit more development with Draco's character now that his father is in prison. His world just changed drastically, and that is going to have an effect on him. Even if book six opens up telling us that Lucius has already broken out of prison, he's not exactly going to be available to his son.



Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 2:05 pm (#164 of 1825)
I don't think Lucius will remain in Azkaban long enough for Draco to get out from under his influence. I had hoped Snape would have a hand in Draco's formative years for good, perhaps steering him away from the Dark Lord. But since Snape is so heavily involved in spying, I see now there is no way he could possibly influence Draco in that way, which is most unfortunate.

I see Draco's acts escalating until he is deeper and deeper. He's a smarmy git, but doesn't yet know what it's like to really suffer. I wouldn't be surprised if, as speculated here, he does become a 'death nibbler' and tries to do some real damage (instead of these petty schoolboy pranks) only to find out the real games come with real consequences...



Tomoé - Nov 4, 2003 4:08 pm (#165 of 1825)
Olivia Wood (post118) said : "On a totally different note, how many invisibility cloaks do you think the Malfoys have? If I were Harry I'd get a magical eye and start drinking from a private hip flask."

S.E. Jones (post 154) talking about Draco owning the Hand of Glory said : "What and from whom could Draco possibly steal something that would make this relevant to the plot? Ideas?"

So that's a interesting way to bring Draco back in the highlight. Harry will realize that he's not the only one lurking late at night. Maybe they will both look out for the same thing or get on each other way as the try to achieve their goal.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 5, 2003 9:32 am (#166 of 1825)
Edited by Nov 5, 2003 8:33 am
Maybe the Hand of Glory will be used to help release Lucius and the other incarcerated DEs from Azkaban... That would be nicely ironic, since Lucius was so snotty about it that time in Borgins and Burkes, saying that a lowdown criminal (principal users of the HofG) was all Draco would amount to if his grades didn't improve.

To jump to another topic, previously covered (I'm sorry if my posts seem hotchpotch), I don't honestly think Lucius and Narcissa are that fond of their son. Expensive gifts are a common way of careless parents of covering for their negligence- they seem to think that if they shower the kid with presents, they will feel soothed despite being ignored in every other way. Yes, Malfoy usually has the best of everything... but would Lucius, with his standing in the wizarding world (not any more, heh heh) let him have any less? That would reflect badly on him, something he can't allow. He hoped by appearing as a doting father it would deflect suspicion from his Death Eating.

When we do see Lucius and Malfoy together (not very often), Malfoy seems cold and dismissive. In CoS he is seen spitting out one putdown after another (easy enough to see where that Draconian backchat comes from!)

So if everything at home isn't as well as it could be, and he's struggling with the demons of insecurity, he can be excused for projecting his self-loathing on other people. At least, he would be if he had other traits to make him a more sympathetic, rounded character.

But as he stands in canon...

He's a nasty, one dimensional little git, and a waste of space. No wonder JK is shoving him back; he seems to have served his purpose.

Maybe he'll get kissed by a Dementor or something.

(But by being turned into a ferret... that provided my fave series moment).



timrew - Nov 5, 2003 4:00 pm (#167 of 1825)
JKR seemed upset (in an interview) that too many people (mainly female) were over-fond of Draco (this has probably got more to do with Tom Felton than with the character described in the books!).

So, in all probability, Draco is not going to be redeemed in the two remaining books.

It remains to be seen what JKR does with this character. But I don't think he can remain the nasty git that we know and hate.

He will have to be developed in some way. Maybe by being permanently turned into a ferret - or dying in the girl's toilet and becoming a ghostly companion to Moaning Myrtle for the next few thousand years.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 6, 2003 3:48 am (#168 of 1825)
I agree that the unjustified fondness for Draco is more to do with Tom Felton than the character as written. I can't help thinking that Tom Felton is too good looking- not once does it say that Draco is attractive, althought that's often how he is illustrated too.

I know good looks would give him one more thing to be arrogant about, but I honestly don't think he would have them. And even if he did, they would be cancelled out by his gross personality.



SarcasticGinny - Nov 10, 2003 9:07 am (#169 of 1825)
Draco may have inherited his mother's good looks. It says Narcissa would have been attractive if she hadn't been wearing that snotty expression, so Draco could be a handsome lad...just happens he's an insufferable git to boot.



Dr Filibuster - Nov 13, 2003 4:07 pm (#170 of 1825)
I did a quick search and couldn't see this mentioned before....

Last night I came across this in a "Horrible Histories" book called Wicked Words..

How would you like to go through life being called a thief? That's what ferrets do. Their name comes from the Latin word fur which means thief. Just because these cute, little, fluffy, over-stretched hamsters dive into the burrows of other creatures and ferret about seeing what they can find.

More fuel for Draco and the Hand of Glory?



S.E. Jones - Nov 13, 2003 10:09 pm (#171 of 1825)
Hm, interesting (thanks for that interesting bit of info. Dr. Filibuster)... Let's see, we've got him looking at the Hand of Glory, him being turned into a ferret (a thief of the animal kingdom), and in the films, him stealing two objects. Yeah, I'd definitely say he's going to turn out to be a thief. The question still remains, how could this be pertinent to the overall plot? To one of the smaller sub-plots?



popkin - Nov 14, 2003 2:46 am (#172 of 1825)
Is he going to be a small time thief (stealing just for the thrill of it), or is he going to steal important items for the DEs? Will his thievery come between him and his Dad, or will it strengthen their relationship?



Marie E. - Nov 14, 2003 6:46 pm (#173 of 1825)
Imagine if Draco steals something of Harry's, like the Marauder's Map or the invisibility cloak. He could get up to serious mischief with those items.



popkin - Nov 16, 2003 7:32 pm (#174 of 1825)
Edited by Nov 16, 2003 6:33 pm
I'm not sure, but I think Lucius Malfoy might have gotten Mad Eye Moody's best invisibility cloak when he (probably) put an imperius curse on Sturgis Podmore. Draco could use it.



S.E. Jones - Nov 17, 2003 3:16 pm (#175 of 1825)
So he may have the Hand of Glory, Moody's best Invisibility cloak, and a habit for thievery? Well that can't bode well....



timrew - Nov 17, 2003 5:50 pm (#176 of 1825)
As well as being an animagus (turns into a ferret), a metamorphmagus (turns into everything else that isn't a ferret), and the owner of a (stolen) time-turner, Sarah?



S.E. Jones - Nov 17, 2003 11:18 pm (#177 of 1825)
I thought his animagus form was the dragon from the Tri-wizard tournament, Tim...?

I think the possibility that Draco will end up stealing something of importance to the plot is very interesting, but I still can't descide what it would be. My brother suggested he was going to steal Neville's dignity. I didn't think that was very funny, personally. What does Harry have that he could steal that would impact the plot? Or, what could he overhear that could impact the plot? Could he overhear Harry telling his friends about the Prophecy?



Caput Draconis - Nov 17, 2003 11:44 pm (#178 of 1825)
Hehe, Neville's dignity.

Draco already has a history of snooping around, so I certainly don't think it would be out of place for him to overhear something of importance. That this could be taken to another level by him actually stealing something seems more appropriate of late than it has before (I think it was those wierd scenes in the movies, with page ripping and box swiping..) There's been speculation that this could be a part of his role as an aspiring Death Eater, that he would take something from the Order and deliver it to Lord Voldemort. I think it'd be much more likely that Draco believes he is helping, or perhaps just trying to please his father (probably after being warned to stay out of it) - but whatever he steals results in a Death Eater scheme not going to plan. Interesting if Draco not only turned out to be what his father despises ("I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or plunderer...") but ruins his evil doings in the process.



Denice - Nov 18, 2003 8:38 am (#179 of 1825)
When I just re-read the first book (for what must have been the 100th time...), I noticed something that might not be altogether relevant, but still struck me.

Remember the kids being in the Forbidden Forrest looking for the unicorn? Harry is first teamed up with Ron and Hagrid, but after Draco plays a joke upon Neville, it's Harry, Fang and Draco. So they walk through the forrest, find the unicorn, a hooded figure comes up and drinks the unicorns blood. This is the last time Malfoy is mentioned - he is screaming. That's it. While we find out how Harry's head feel like it is exploding (because of Voldy being near), how he is rescued by the Centaurs, how Firenze brings him back to Hagrid in what seems to be quite a long ride, NOTHING is mentioned about Draco. Did the little ferret just take Fang and run back without *anyone* noticing? Did he not even see the centaurs? Or did he do... something else, like following the hooded figure we now know was Quirrell? Or did JKR simply forget he was there?

Something just felt strange to me when reading the scene...



Peregrine - Nov 18, 2003 10:39 am (#180 of 1825)
I assumed Fang ran back to Hagrid and Malfoy followed him. Or that Fang ran all the way back to Hagrid’s hut and Malfoy followed him (I can’t remember if he was there when Harry met back up with Hagrid). I think he was a little too freaked out to notice anything or follow anyone. He was pretty afraid to be in the forest in the first place. I think mentioning what happened to Malfoy would take away from the shock of Voldemort hanging out in the forest so it wasn’t bothered with.



Gina R Snape - Nov 18, 2003 12:45 pm (#181 of 1825)
Yes, we know he did manage to get out of the forest. So, I think it's assumed he simply ran for it and went back to the castle.



Maollelujah - Nov 18, 2003 4:06 pm (#182 of 1825)
It does say that Malfoy "let out a terrible scream and bolted - so did Fang." So I believe he ran all the way back to Hagrid's hut.



Caitlin McCoy - Nov 18, 2003 4:09 pm (#183 of 1825)
Why would he go back to Hagrid's Hut?



timrew - Nov 18, 2003 4:15 pm (#184 of 1825)
Because if he ran all the way back to his dormitory, he would have been cutting short his detention without permission.

By going back to Hagrid's Hut and waiting, he could tell Hagrid that he 'lost' Harry and Fang, and made his own way back to the hut to wait for the others.

This is not mentioned in the book, but I imagine it's what a devious Draco would do!



Sly Girl - Nov 18, 2003 4:23 pm (#185 of 1825)
Remember the kids being in the Forbidden Forrest looking for the unicorn? Harry is first teamed up with Ron and Hagrid, but after Draco plays a joke upon Neville, it's Harry, Fang and Draco.

Er.. not to nitpick, but um.. well, I will anyway.. it's not Ron and Harry, it's Hermione and Harry- remember Ron was in the infirmary with the Norbert-bitten hand? He couldn't help Harry send off Norbert to his brother's friends, Hermione had to help him. So in stark contrast to the movie, it's only Hermione, Harry, Draco and Neville that get detention in the forest, not Ron.

Anyway, I'm assuming Draco bolted, like it says and either ran into Hagrid and the rest and told them what happened or he went straight to the castle or he did both- because when Harry is found by Hermione and Hagrid, Neville isn't mentioned either. I'm assuming the two boys were together with Fang.



Denice - Nov 19, 2003 1:11 am (#186 of 1825)
Sorry about mixing up Hermy and Ron - they are so much alike, you know ;-)

Anyway, the point is, I understand what you all mean and I think it is very well possible he just ran back. I didn't even think about it when I read the book the first 99 times ;-)))

What seems so odd to me is that change of teams, shortly before Harry and a DE's son see Voldy drinking unicorn blood... Would it have made any difference if Hermy had been with him? Maybe the hole point was to show what a creep Draco is for sneaking up on Neville?



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 19, 2003 3:14 am (#187 of 1825)
I don't think he would have dared to do that to Hermione. Despite his sneering and calling her all manner of horrible things, he seems to be quite intimidated by her.



Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 6:33 pm (#188 of 1825)
Yeah, I think Draco sees weakness quite clearly, and he saw Neville as weak. That may never happen again mind you, now that Neville is more confident. But Draco, despite his dislike of Hermione, knows that the girl can do her stuff. And now, thanks to book 5, he knows Ginny can as well. Poor Malfoy... what's a great bullying git to do?



Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 9:38 pm (#189 of 1825)
Oh, Sly, my word, I had totally forgotten that Ginny really nailed the little Ferret Boy in OotP. (Bat-Bogey hex, wasn't it?) I do hope JKR lets Ginny have a go at him again... it would be such poetic justice for a Weasley, and a girl at that, to put him in his place.



timrew - Nov 20, 2003 5:28 pm (#190 of 1825)
Would Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle dare to have a go at anyone who is in the DA after what happened to them on the Hogwarts Express at the end of OOP?

They're backed into a corner, shunned by 99% of the school, their dads are in Azkaban; they have only one way to go.....and that's down!

I've been wondering what JKR will do with Malfoy in Book 6. He can no longer strut his stuff, he has about six friends in the world, who are all evil Slytherins (Boo! Hiss!).

I'm only kidding. I hold out hope that there will be a Slytherin that joins the DA, or The Order. After all, Phineas Nigellus was okay, was he not?



Neville Longbottom - Nov 20, 2003 5:34 pm (#191 of 1825)

Would Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle dare to have a go at anyone who is in the DA after what happened to them on the Hogwarts Express at the end of OOP?


Knowing their "intelligence", I would say: Yes. *g*

I think they will try to seek revenge and they will catch up with the spells over the holidays. They will probably learn more about using the Dark Arts and will be on the same level than most DA members in book 6. Still, they are outnumbered, so they will probably be careful.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 21, 2003 9:30 am (#192 of 1825)
I can't help wondering... with Lucius in jail, and their family totally discredited, will Draco still be a Prefect, or will that honour be taken away from him? It wouldn't look good, having someone whose father is a known Death Eater strutting around taking points off people...



popkin - Nov 21, 2003 10:04 am (#193 of 1825)
Edited by Nov 21, 2003 9:07 am
Even if he were still prefect, he wouldn't be taking points from people. Hermione states (when they first meet up with the "inquisitorial squad") that only teachers can take away points - which was true up until that time. Now that Dumbledore is back, the inquisitorial squad will have been disbanded and teachers will be in full control of awarding and docking points.

If we accept what Hermione says as true (and I do), it means that Percy was exagerating the powers of his position when he threatened to take points from a student (was that in COS?)

Since it is Snape, as Head of House, who will be choosing the prefects for Slytherin, I don't think he'll consider what Draco's father is doing or that he has been incarcerated.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 21, 2003 10:05 am (#194 of 1825)
I don't think DUmbledore is a "Sins of the Father" type of thinker. Draco will no longer be able to dock points now that Umbridge is gone. If Draco loses his badge, it will be for things that he does wrong, not Lucius, and so far, Draco hasn't technically broken any rules, since Umbridge sanctioned his actions last term.



virgoddess1313 - Nov 21, 2003 10:12 am (#195 of 1825)
But, all the same, you can't always judge a person by his or her parents... given, Draco is a little terror. He obviously had something that caused him to be picked as a prefect in the first place. I believe it was Hagrid who said something about Dumbledore giving people chances, and I think he'll do the same for Draco. I'm not saying he'll reform (although I wouldn't mind seeing it), just that I don't think his family's failings will have any bearing on his status as a prefect.



popkin - Nov 21, 2003 10:15 am (#196 of 1825)
I don't think Dumbledore is involved in the choice of prefects. I think that duty falls entirely to the Head of House.



Tomoé - Nov 21, 2003 10:34 am (#197 of 1825)
If Dumbledore is involved in the choice of prefects, he just give the final "yes". DD do said that he choiced to name someone else than Harry, because the boy had enought in his plate already.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 21, 2003 2:26 pm (#198 of 1825)
This puts Snape in a no-win situation. If he keeps Draco on as prefect, everyone will ask questions and start murmuring that Slytherin House is even dodgier than they thought. I'm afraid I have to agree with the 'Sins of the Fathers' mode of thinking since it is impossible that Draco could live in that house and not be aware of his dad's inclinations, even if he were a much nicer character. As it is, he has boasted about his family's connection with Voldemort on numerous occasions, going so far as to tell Harry that he's picked the wrong side in GoF, in front of witnesses.

But if Snape drops Draco, this will let Voldemort and Lucius know for sure (if they don't know already) that he's switched sides.

This puts him in a v. awkward situation...

To turn it back to Draco (I realise I've wandered too far into the realms of Snapedom, here), I think it's much too late to be redeemed. People's personalities, although there are superficial changes here and there, are more or less fixed by the age of thirteen. Even before then, he was coming out with totally disgusting remarks such as if the Basilisk killed anyone, he hoped it would be Hermione.

This goes far beyond a petty schoolyard dislike. There are many people I have not got on with, certainly, and people I have downright hated, but I would never, ever wish another person dead. For a kid as young as Draco to say such a thing is repulsive.

And... last, completely irrelevant thought- do you think Pansy Parkinson will still think he's the lord of all creation, or do you think she'll drop him? Is her family part of the DE circle?



Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 2:49 pm (#199 of 1825)
Pansy Parkinson seems to me to be a Bella type. Draco could probably feed her to a Blast-Ended Skrewt and she'd still adore him.

I see no possibilities that Draco will be anything but what he already is. He's a vile, vindictive, repulsive, jealous, condescending, arrogant little twit, and those are just his good points.



timrew - Nov 21, 2003 4:35 pm (#200 of 1825)
"He's a vile, vindictive, repulsive, jealous, condescending, arrogant little twit, and those are just his good points."

You don't like him then, Weeny? Personally, I agree with you.

Draco, it seems, has served his purpose as a thick, name-calling twit. So, unless JKR introduces another aspect to his character in book 6, I don't see why we should have to read about him any more.

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Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 22, 2003 8:11 am (#201 of 1825)
There is a part of me that still believes that Draco is going to be a huge part of books 6 and 7. Sorry to rain on your parade because I really am tired of seeing his character not developing either. He has been the same ever since book one and yes, he is getting on my nerves too.

In book 6 he is going to be even worse too now that is precious daddy is in Azkaban. He may even be more open and outward about this. He probably won't care about being expelled either. This scares me for Harry. Dunno just an opinion.



popkin - Nov 22, 2003 9:06 am (#202 of 1825)
At some point the Malfoy money might become tied up in court, given that Lucius is in Azkaban and will probably be tried and convicted of being a Death Eater, the legality of many of his business dealings could very well be questioned. This would have a profound effect on their family and would knock Draco down several pegs. Wanting to rebuild the family fortune could be the impetus that leads Draco into a more serious pursuit of thieving and marauding. The consequences of his actions could either cause him to become the worst Draco possible, or to rue the day he ever looked longingly at the Hand of Glory.



Weeny Owl - Nov 22, 2003 4:52 pm (#203 of 1825)
hehehe, tim, I was trying not to make it too obvious that Ferret Boy isn't exactly my favorite.

I've wondered about the lack of Nott when Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle confront Harry after he's left the hospital wing. Actually, I've wondered about him not being around most of the time anyway. Since he's barely mentioned, he could play an important part later in whatever happens with Draco.

While the confrontations on the Hogwarts Express are generally informative and/or amusing, they are getting a bit old. I would love to see JKR do something different with that. Maybe bring the six from the Department of Mysteries battle to Hogwarts a bit early. It would be funny to see Draco's face fall when he realizes that while they weren't on the train, they're still at school anyway.

Lucius is probably going to escape from Azkaban, and I wonder if Draco will be involved. Does Draco know Bella? Would she visit Narcissa and perhaps bring Voldie? Draco could end up biting off more than a bouncy little ferret can chew.



SarcasticGinny - Nov 22, 2003 9:16 pm (#204 of 1825)
Weeny, I figured that Teddy Nott might have found out his old man was injured and subsequently abandoned in the Dept. of Mysteries. In fact, Malfoy Sr. gave the order. "Leave Nott, leave him I say, the Dark Lord will not care for Nott's injuries as much as losing that prophecy!" (Beyond the Veil, 788).

To bring it back to Draco, I predict some animosity between Theodore Nott and Draco Malfoy. Draco obviously worships his dad, and if Nott knows how Lucius just left HIS dad there to rot when he was hurt (who knows, Nott Sr. could have even been killed from these injuries...), well lets just say it'd be a starting point for some discord in Slytherin House. It would be really interesting to see Draco pick on a fellow Slytherin, or even better, be picked on by a fellow Slytherin. Draco has never had his attention diverted from Gryffindor House in terms of enemies at Hogwarts, so to have someone in his own house to watch out for would be great, imagine the ferret's utter confusion if a Slytherin dares tell him off!



Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 10:31 am (#205 of 1825)
Ginny:

That's exactly what I'm hoping! I would love to see Nott tangle with Ferret Boy and show his fellow Slytherins that Ferret Boy's ways might not be the right ways. It could also be a way of uniting the houses.

Not everyone wants to be united, granted, but if Nott or another Slytherin could give Ferret Boy a grand telling off, maybe more Slytherins would come out against Voldie and company and become part of the battle on the side of good.



timrew - Nov 23, 2003 10:36 am (#206 of 1825)
Weeny, "I would love to see Nott tangle with Ferret Boy". Hey! A tangled Nott!

To be serious, though, I like this theory, and could very well see it coming about. First Phineas Nigellus, and now Nott. Good Slytherins are busting out of the woodwork!



Czarina - Dec 6, 2003 8:22 am (#207 of 1825)
Hmmmm...

Malfoy does not seem to be the boring, undeveloped character that he first appears to be. I would think that the Harry Potter books would be just as interesting if they were written from Draco's point of view! He is introduced in the first book as little more than an antagonist for Harry. Malfoy serves no real purpose, other than to point out that not EVERYONE wants to Harry Potter's friend. It is from Malfoy that Harry learns about conflict in the Wizarding World. (Up until their meeting in Diagon Alley, Harry sees this new world as being perpetually wonderful.)

In the second book, Malfoy is the one who introduces wizard prejudice. He is no longer just an annoying little snob; now he is a racist who HATES Hermione, among others. In Book One, the only reason it appears that he hates her is because of her intelligence.

In Books Three and Four, Malfoy continues to sink lower and lower into evil. While remaining pretty much the same, annoying git as he always was on the surface, he evolves into the proto-Death Eater by the end of Book Four. Still, the question remains, does Ferret-boy REALLY know what his father is up to? Maybe his anger at Harry at the end of Book Five is more due to surprise that his daddy is not invincible?

The comment "'You're dead, Potter.'" is probably the only thing that Rowling could have him say at that moment. It sets up further conflict for the later books. Now that Malfoy is on his own (Daddy may get out of prison, but he has lost his standing), he will probably change drastically from the name-calling snob that he has been.

Any thoughts?



Sly Girl - Dec 6, 2003 10:36 am (#208 of 1825)
Makes sense to me, and I do wish she would give us a bit more Malfoyisms for the next books, but she seems quite dismayed at how popular Draco has become. And while I'm not saying she would change her mind about his character (we know she won't) I do think it might influence her a bit.

I would like to see a change in Draco, but he'll probably remain the bullying git he is. We've seen glimpses of a subdued Draco- but it never lasts for long, so I think being an arrogant snob is what he was designed to be.



Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 10:53 am (#209 of 1825)
Czarina:

That's an excellent take on Ferret Boy.

I don't think he'll change drastically from being a name-calling snob, at least not on the surface. I do think he's going to be much more dangerous, though.

He said, and Harry agrees, that Lucius will break out of Azkaban. When Lucius does escape, I think he'll drag Draco down even more.

I think by the end of the sixth book or sometime early in the last one, Draco will be a full-fledged Death Eater.

It would be nice to think that Ferret Boy will see the error of his ways, but with all the Nazi analogies, I can see him as a dedicated-to-the-cause Hitler Youth leader.

He already reminded Harry at the end of GoF about choosing the wrong side, and I doubt if he would see that his side is wrong.

He may seem to be a laughable bouncing ferret, but he has deep-seated hatreds that have been simmering for years.

Draco has a strong sadistic streak. He loves flaunting his father's power with the Ministry because he thinks that gives him power, but with his father's influence gone, his is gone as well.

If Ferret Boy does change, I think it will be for the worse.



timrew - Dec 6, 2003 6:59 pm (#210 of 1825)
I think JKR, with Draco, is giving us (especially us Brits) a supreme example of our class system at work.

The Malfoys are the 'elite' of the wizarding establishment. Pure Bloods who are admired and respected by other Pure Bloods (except, of course, the Weasleys; but the Weasleys are A:- poor, and B:- liberal, so forget about them!).

An astounding (but true) thing about the upper classes, is that they take no notice whatsoever of any criticism from any source, especially if it comes from a class lower than themselves. The Upper Classes can do no wrong.....ever!

From this, I can assure you, that Draco will listen to no reason, no criticism of his father, no attempts to tell him to turn over a new leaf. He is right, and everyone else in the world is wrong.

This is why I regard him as one-dimensional; which is exactly the way, I'm sure, that JKR decided to portray him.



Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 9:04 pm (#211 of 1825)
tim:

Do you see Ferret Boy as becoming a Death Eater? Do you see him lasting through all seven books?

Personally, I would love to see him in Azkaban at the very least, or if not, then perhaps stomped on by Grawp.



timrew - Dec 7, 2003 6:48 am (#212 of 1825)
I never thought Draco was smart enough to become a Death Eater, Weeny. He's not a patch on his Dad.

I can see him becoming a 'Pettigrew' type figure, a Death Nibbling snitch.

And as to his fate; 'stomped on by Grawp' would be good.



Weeny Owl - Dec 7, 2003 9:18 am (#213 of 1825)
tim:

But wouldn't Voldie want Death Eaters who aren't necessarily smart but who are loyal to his cause?

I can't quite see Ferret Boy as a Pettigrew type only because Pettigrew had too many people fooled as to where his true loyalties were. I don't see Draco being very good at subterfuge. I can see him being like Pettigrew as far as wanting to be on the side with the most power, though.



Czarina - Dec 7, 2003 10:31 am (#214 of 1825)
I never meant to imply that Malfoy would change for the BETTER. I actually figure he will become worse. Now he doesn't have his father to hide behind anymore.



Nox NotteTorrente - Dec 8, 2003 3:25 am (#215 of 1825)

>But wouldn't Voldie want Death Eaters who aren't necessarily smart but who are loyal to his cause? <<


Exactly. Crabbe and Goyle Snr are not exactly brainiacs, but they they are loyal. I doubt Draco has the brains to be anything close to his father, much to Lucius' chagrin.



Mad Goose - Dec 9, 2003 10:14 am (#216 of 1825)
Draco still has his mom, who I gather is respected. (Point out if i'm wrong on that.) I see voldy taking anyone he can, and he is all about pure blood so that is the only requirement in his eyes. Draco showed his true character in Oop when he became part of the Jr hit squad.



Sly Girl - Dec 9, 2003 9:09 pm (#217 of 1825)
What if Voldemort betrays Lucius (by basically being Voldemort) how would Draco react to that? Would that start a change in the way Draco sees the world?



Weeny Owl - Dec 9, 2003 10:03 pm (#218 of 1825)
Mad Goose:

I have no idea if Narcissa is respected or not, but I do think she makes her feelings quite clear in GoF by her facial expression when she encounters the Weasleys, Harry, and Hermione. I have a feeling she is less vocal about it than Draco, but still has the same prejudices.

Sly:

The only thing I could see Draco doing would be to find a way to blame Harry or Dumbledore or both. I think he's in too deep with his blood prejudices and his feelings of superiority... or wanna be superiority. He certainly can't match Hermione, and I have a feeling that he's going to try to teach her a lesson somewhere in the last two books.

Ron said something in one of the first books about how he would get Draco one way or another, and I could picture Harry and him cleaning Ferret Boy's clock big time.

I would love to see that nasty, hideous, vile, pathethic little ferret get his comeuppance... not that I feel strongly about it, of course.



Tomoé - Dec 9, 2003 10:19 pm (#219 of 1825)
'I'll get him,' said Ron, grinding his teeth at Malfoy's back, 'one of these days, I'll get him -' (PS ch.12 p.144)



Weeny Owl - Dec 9, 2003 10:35 pm (#220 of 1825)
Oh, thank you so much, Tomoe! I just could not remember which book that was in.

I do hope, though, that Ron does get the rabid little ferret. I don't mean kill him, because I wouldn't want to see Ron do that, but to finally be able to give back a great deal of what Draco has been giving out since the beginning.



Czarina - Dec 10, 2003 6:32 am (#221 of 1825)
Somehow, I think there will be a showdown between Ron and Draco towards the end of the series. Both of them are purebloods, but one is poor and liberal while the other is rich and elitist. Ron likes (loves?) Hermione and would probably die for her, while Draco hates her and everything she stands for.



Weeny Owl - Dec 10, 2003 10:51 am (#222 of 1825)
Czarina:

The other thing about Ron and Ferret Boy is that Ron is a more loving person while Draco is too full of hate. There are so many instances where they are polar opposites.

I think Ron loves Hermione whether or not it's a romantic love, and I could see him fighting for her, especially against the nasty ferret.

I do find it interesting that ferrets are part of the weasel family and Draco is singing Weasley is our king.

I'm not sure if this bodes well for Draco or Ron, or if it even matters, but one definition of weasel is: to escape from or evade a situation.



Peregrine - Dec 10, 2003 11:30 am (#223 of 1825)
Do you think Draco and Ron realize they’re related, even if it is distantly?



nmnjr - Dec 10, 2003 3:55 pm (#224 of 1825)
They probably are related in some way and Malfoy probably knows it. The Malfoys seem the type to know all their genealogy and Sirius said in OotP that the pure-bloods were interrelated somehow. It was when he and Harry were looking at the Black family tapestry.

Unfortunately my sister has that book up at college right now, so maybe someone could please look up the quote?



Devika - Dec 11, 2003 8:20 am (#225 of 1825)
Wow! If that's the case then I can just imagine Malfoy's reaction at discovering that Ron is ,say ,his second cousin! Half his pride and prejudice(!) will fall flat.



fidelio - Dec 12, 2003 8:11 am (#226 of 1825)
No, when people you despise [justly or unjustly] turn out to be relatives, most folks just seem to despise them all the more--maybe they feel they've let the rest of the family down. There's a saying here in the southern United States "It's not whether or not you're related to each other, it's whether you want to admit to it" that sums it up pretty well. After all, you get to chose your friends--you get your family, whether near relations or distant ones, as they come, without any choice on your part! I think Sirius would have despised the rest of the Black less if they hadn't been his family. I suspect that any connection between the Malfoys and the Weasleys, whether through the Blacks or any other relatives, is carefully ignored by both sides as being too, too embarrassing for words. As one of my aunts-by-marriage said about a connection of hers, "Yes, we're related, but we don't talk about it", when one of her children asked. Somehow I think the same thing applies here. For both Draco and Ron and his siblings, the thought they could be tied by blood to someone they loathe so completely would be revolting, and therefore must be ignored--and I imagine their parents all feel the same way.



S.E. Jones - Dec 20, 2003 12:00 am (#227 of 1825)
Precisely, Fidelio. I imagine that could be why the Malfoys seem to despise the Weasleys so strongly...It would sure be interesting to find out all the other reasons for the animosity, though....



fidelio - Dec 29, 2003 8:27 am (#228 of 1825)
Well, there you are, a Malfoy, rich, famous [or notorious, perhaps], well-connected, influential, good-looking, powerful and so on and so forth, and these wretched Weasleys are not only unimpressed, but dare to disapprove of you on moral grounds, and possibly even look down their poverty-stricken noses at you--and manage to make lots of friends simply by virtue of being nice people who are fun to be around--whether they can be useful to their acquaintances or not! O, the horror! O, the humiliation! They don't realize they should creep before you and be impressed like everyone else! If only these wretched Weasleys would fall into line and accept their status as lesser beings! Of course, there may be dirty work over an inheritance or a business deal somewhere in the background, and I can imagine that even as distant relatives each family finds they other an embarrassment, but I think the problem is partly that the Weasley value system clashes with the Malfoy value system--and in such a way that the Malfoys end up feeling dismissed and rejected. When you have to buy your friends and influence, people who manage to obtain these things because people just like and respect them as people have to be galling. I suspect Lucius may have enough insight to grasp this, but Draco doesn't--he just knows that the Weasleys get his goat!



Sinister Kittens - Dec 29, 2003 5:42 pm (#229 of 1825)
Wow that's alot of exclamation marks fidelio! Can we take it as read that the first part of your furious tirade :-) is writen from a malfoy perspective? (Just kidding, I agree with your analogy!)



fidelio - Dec 30, 2003 6:48 am (#230 of 1825)
I got a special large-size packet of punctuation markers for Christmas, and for some reason there were a lot of exclamation points in it. I thought I'd use some up.

Yes, you're right--that was supposed to be a rather sarcastic take on a possible Malfoy point of view. When we hear about Slytherins being willing to do anything to further their ambition, we don't generally consider it in depth, but I think that most Slytherins with an actual take on morals will hit a point where they will ask themselves "Is this really worth what it's going to cost me?"--Snape and Regulus Black being two possible examples of that [I'm assuming that Regulus was a Slytherin--many of the Blacks seem to have been]. It's even possible that Couch Sr. falls in this category--if he was a Slytherin. However, I get the impression that Draco has never had any exposure to this concept, and no exposure to the concept of dealings with other people that weren't based on What you can do for me, and what I can do for you. Since the Weasleys are all about taking people as they find them, and accepting them for what they are, and simply being friends [if they like someone] or kind [if they think it's called for] or disliking someone [if that's how it works out] without regard to benefit or favor [consider how useful it would have been for Percy to cultivate Draco at school--but he doesn't seem to have done so], according to the Malfoy school of thought, they're clueless losers. But the Weasleys don't just fail to get it, they openly despise the Malfoy way. How can people who think like the Malfoys ever get along with people who think like the Weasleys, especially since the Weasleys are well aware of what the Malfoys are like? I also don't think Draco is enough of an original thinker to see where the problem is, and make the effort to conceal his feelings and intentions to get along with anyone he feels such disdain for. His father can, which is why he was so dangerous--and probably one of the reasons why Voldie calls him "slippery".



Devika - Dec 30, 2003 9:28 am (#231 of 1825)
I think you have got an excellent insight into their attitude fidelio and put it very well. It does appear that Malfoy has merely inherited the outlook and not the resoning, the logic or even the contradictions behind it. It does not seem that he fully understands why his family hate the Weasleys so much even though they are a pure blood family. It is possible that there is some sort of a background to it, but Draco appears to have been fed a certain explanation about the poverty of the Weasleys. Poverty could be a factor, but Fidelio's analysis does show that it is a much deeper moral conflict. Draco, I don't feel has the kind of maturity to understand such stuff or maybe he has just led too sheltered a life where his parents have even 'censored' the way he thinks.



Weeny Owl - Dec 30, 2003 11:53 am (#232 of 1825)
From the beginning JKR has shown us what Ferret Boy is even though his opinion of himself is just the opposite.

In Madam Malkin's he tells Harry he's going to bully his father into buying him a racing broom, makes nasty remarks about Hagrid, makes his blood prejudices known, and is shown to be spoiled and arrogant.

His reaction in the Hogwarts Express to seeing Ron continues to let us know his opinions. He is rather stunned when Harry doesn't fall all over himself accepting the offer of friendship.

fidelio, you are right in that Draco is not an original thinker and that he just doesn't have the abilities Lucius does in dissembling.

In Chamber of Secrets, we see that Ferret Boy cannot accept responsibility. At Borgin and Burkes, he blames Hermione instead of himself because her grades are better. He blames Harry for being allowed to play Quidditch when he wasn't. In Order of the Phoenix, he blames Harry for Lucius being in Azkaban instead of admitting that if Lucius had not been doing something he shouldn't, he wouldn't be in prison. Draco also blames Buckbeak and tries to get Hagrid fired when he was too arrogant to pay attention to what he was told in how to approach a hippogriff.

Draco is accustomed to seeing people kowtowing to Lucius and expects to be treated the same way. I think he's genuinely puzzled when people don't react to him the way they do to his father. He seems rather clueless about why Lucius has so much power when he himself doesn't.

You raised some excellent points, fidelio, about the Weasleys and Malfoys and their belief systems.



SJ Rand - Dec 30, 2003 12:44 pm (#233 of 1825)
Weeny Owl: >>I think he's genuinely puzzled when people don't react to him the way they do to his father. He seems rather clueless about why Lucius has so much power when he himself doesn't.

Yes, I think so too.

I once said that it was all a game of cowboys and indians to Draco, and I still believe that. He obviously doesn't understand the ramifications of what's going on. He lives in a dream world. He thinks he can get away with yelling gleefully that "Cedric was only the first!" on a train full of people upset over Cedric's death. So even the harshest reality of all, death, isn't real to him, and he doesn't capable of understanding that it's very real to others.

To him, it's no different than crowing about Slytherin winning a Quidditch match. Why should anyone want to hurt him for being glad that his team won?



Weeny Owl - Dec 30, 2003 2:10 pm (#234 of 1825)
SJ:

I agree with you about how winning at Quidditch is no different to him than much else.

I did find it interesting that he seemed rather appalled when Harry actually said "Voldemort." I don't think Ferret Boy is going to see just how deadly Voldie can be until it's too late. I really don't believe he can understand that the power he thinks he has through his father's association with Voldie is something that could easily turn on him. If he annoys Voldie, he may find he's as much of a spare as Cedric.

This is a generalization, but he seems to have the mindset that some celebrities have these days in that they feel they're above the law, and that they can do what they want and everyone should applaud.

Draco is also a coward. The scene in the Forbidden Forest is an example, and it seems that he can do nothing without his bodyguards. I can only imagine what he would do if he were actually confronted by Voldie.



timrew - Dec 30, 2003 6:19 pm (#235 of 1825)
Weeny Owl said, "Draco is also a coward."

And SJ Rand said, "He thinks he can get away with yelling gleefully that "Cedric was only the first!" on a train full of people upset over Cedric's death."

I think another point we have to bring up here is Draco's lack of intelligence. At no point does he ever consider what the result of his actions is going to be.

Like SJ said, he is on a train on which everyone is grieving about Cedric's death, except for himself and his two cronies, and he has to open his big, stupid mouth.

Did he not realise he would get jinxed from every direction? I don't think so.

Draco is, as we say in the UK, as thick as two short planks; which is why he will never be the equal of his deliciously malevolent father.



SJ Rand - Dec 31, 2003 9:57 am (#236 of 1825)
That's why I said it wasn't real to him, Tim. He obviously understands nothing of consequences, which is very odd considering how many times he's gotten himself hurt, hurt as a direct result of his own actions I mean.

If he actually understood that he'd be at risk, he wouldn't even want to be like his father... although Dad seems to get away with things pretty well, up to the end of OotP at least. Maybe that's at the heart of Draco's behavior. His father always comes away unscathed, why shouldn't he? The fact that his father does everything in secret is lost on the poor idiot.



Lady Nagini - Dec 31, 2003 12:41 pm (#237 of 1825)
Edited by Dec 31, 2003 11:47 am
I don't necessarily think Draco is "thick as two short planks"(great line, though). He IS smart, but he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. Someone, a few dozen posts back, said something about Draco not realizing that the DEs are playing a real game, with real consequences.

Is it just me, or does that have parallels to Hermione's idealistic SPEW campaign? She doesn't understand that this is real; not just part of some book she's reading.

Back on topic.

To Harry, especially in the first few books, Draco comes off as far more knowledgable about the WW, and that's just because Harry hasn't been exposed to it yet. Since we're seeing Draco from Harry's POV, we see him as a git, but a smart git. As the series progresses, we're going to see Draco as increasingly naive about the real world.

There's that Hermione connection again.

Back to Draco, he's been sheltered, which seems to be a paradox, considering he grew up in the house of a DE. But he's been given a very slanted view of the world, and that's going to be an interesting part of the next two books.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself clearly enough.



fidelio - Dec 31, 2003 12:58 pm (#238 of 1825)
No, you make sense to me. Draco and Hermione are both naive about some things, although I think Draco is more naive than she is. I suspect that Hermione's parents probably were the sort of people who were aware of and concerned about what was going on in the world--not just their own little patch, as dentists, or residents of X community, or X country--and conveyed this to her. They may have made a point of talking about the news of the day at the dinner table, or whatever--but Hermione learned to be aware of events, and news, and social issues somewhere, and I'm pretty sure this was at home. However, she does have more theoretical knowledge than pratical experience, and this is partly the result of her youth, partly because she didn't grow up in the Wizarding World, and perhaps because she does come from a socio-economic group that is less exposed to direct personal experience of some of the harsher realities of this world [harassment in the workplace, lack of job security, discrimination in various forms, whatever].

I had the dubious privilige of attending college with several people who, because of wealth and other family circumstances, had grown up without any clue about the real world. Their families had wealth and high status, their parents had important jobs, and they themselves had no clue about the work that went into either obtaining wealth and position, or nto maintaining what they did have. It seemed obvious to them that it was there, it had been there as long as they were alive, and therefore would continue to be there forever, no matter what they did, and whether they ever made any effort to maintain their wealth and status. Draco reminds me a lot of these people, although most of them were pleasanter than he seems to be. I don't think Lucius has sheltered him; Narcissa probably has, and Lucius has just been too busy to fight her for control of Draco's upbringing, and get through to him what he needs to understand and learn in order to succeed.

If Hermione's parents have made sure she knows what goes on in the world, and knows how to learn more for herself, at least one of the Malfoys has kept Draco from acquiring a similar awareness and understanding. Whether Narcissa just wanted to protect him from the grim realities of the world, or was trying to keep him away from some of the things Lucius has done to try and protect the family position, I can't begin to guess. If they are both somewhat naive and sheltered, though I do believe Hermione is more likely to realize she doesn't know as much as she needs to, and to try and learn more, while Draco still somehow thinks he's above the gritty details.



SJ Rand - Dec 31, 2003 1:41 pm (#239 of 1825)
In book three Draco is attacked by a Hippogryff for taunting (insulting) it. Early in book four he's turned into a bouncing ferret for trying to jinx Harry while Harry's back is turned, after some more taunting. At the end of book four, Draco and friends get jinxed into unconsciousness for taunting. Halfway into book five, he gets beaten to a pulp by George and Harry for still more taunting.

Yet he manages to muster the complete idiocy to again taunt Harry on the train, even while his Daddy is being pampered by the cuddly Dementors at Azkaban. Which ends up with he and buds getting turned into slugs. He's never won a single battle, with or without his bodyguards, but he just doesn't stop.

Sheltered? Maybe. But I think he's astonishingly dense too.



Choices - Dec 31, 2003 6:38 pm (#240 of 1825)
I think Draco has a real handle on being a bully and not much else.



Lady Nagini - Dec 31, 2003 8:29 pm (#241 of 1825)
Edited by Dec 31, 2003 7:31 pm
Thanks, fidelio.

I meant something a little different, though, let me see if I can explain it better. Draco's always had everything he could ever want, and he's never had to worry about the consequences of his actions, since he's favored by Snape, and his daddy will take care of everything if he does something wrong.

He's not dense, he's been spoiled rotten -- not in the material sense, but in that he hasn't had to worry about the consequences of his actions.

Yes, Narcissa has physically sheltered him. But Lucius has sheltered him by not making him accept responsibility for his actions and not letting him learn from his mistakes.

That's not to say he's not a complete git, because he is. But his upbringing has led him to do whatever he wants, knowing that he won't get in too much trouble.

SJ and Choices, let me know if that makes more sense.



A-is-for-Amy - Dec 31, 2003 10:21 pm (#242 of 1825)
You're making sense, all right. I think the others have a point though; Draco doesn't seem to be learning from past mistakes, and that might suggest that he isn't necessarily the brightest bulb on the strand.



Lady Nagini - Dec 31, 2003 11:04 pm (#243 of 1825)
Edited by Dec 31, 2003 10:04 pm
I understand what they're saying Amy.

I was just hoping I was getting my point across, because I know I understand theirs, and I just wanted them to understand mine.



SJ Rand - Jan 1, 2004 10:32 am (#244 of 1825)
I do understand you, Lady Nagini, but it's as Amy clarified: he's getting some very strong negative feedback, many of those leading to a lot of pain for him, but he doesn't seem to be learning.

A kid who is spoiled and sheltered at home goes to school, where he suddenly finds out that his tirades lead to his being beaten up, not getting him another slice of pie, is generally going to figure out that he'd better keep his tirades at home where it's safe.



Weeny Owl - Jan 1, 2004 12:43 pm (#245 of 1825)
I'm wondering how changed Draco will be in the sixth book, or at least how changed he will appear to his peers.

We know how some (if not most) of the students feel about Ferret Boy, and I can't imagine some of them tolerating him at all.

Those who have family members who have had close encounters with Death Eaters (Susan Bones and Neville come to mind) might hex first and ask questions later if Draco opens his big mouth.

Members of the DA helped Harry when he was ambushed on the Hogwarts Express, and they might not take too kindly to his continued mode of operation.

We know Ernie Macmillan was none too happy when Ferret Boy took off points right and left while he was with Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad.

Draco could finally learn to keep his mouth shut, even though inside he's seething, plotting, and planning something horrible for Harry and company.

Draco could be worse than we've already seen him if many of his fellow students hold grudges because of his Inquisitorial Squad antics and torment him.

The only thing I cannot see JKR doing with him is having him become an apologetic, nice, sweet, kind, caring person who realizes that Voldie is hideous, that the Death Eaters are horrible, and that his behavior in fifth year was reprehensible. Draco is too much in love with Draco to change that much.



SJ Rand - Jan 1, 2004 12:59 pm (#246 of 1825)
Weeny Owl: >>Draco could finally learn to keep his mouth shut, even though inside he's seething, plotting, and planning something horrible for Harry and company.

Draco could be worse than we've already seen him if many of his fellow students hold grudges because of his Inquisitorial Squad antics and torment him.

In other words he might finally become a Slytherin rather than a Hufflepuff with a bad attitude? Speaking of such, I still don't understand how Crabbe and Goyle made it into Slytherin. My interpretation may be way off, but I'd thought that, in addition to doing whatever is needed to get their way, Slytherins would be the sly and calculating types. By rights, the bullies should probably be coming from Gryffindor, the act first think later types.

Anyway, as I brought up on my ill fated predictions for books six and seven thread, I don't think Draco is going to be at Hogwarts next year. Or I don't think it would make sense if he were.



Weeny Owl - Jan 1, 2004 1:14 pm (#247 of 1825)
But, SJ, one Slytherin quality is ambition... perhaps Crabbe and Goyle's main ambition is to be bodyguards to twitchy little ferrets.

The only way I could see JKR not having Ferret Boy at Hogwarts is if some of the Slytherins leave and we see them as full-fledged Death Eaters in the last book.

Draco is too important to the series in some ways. It's through him and his family that we realize the blood prejudices in the Wizarding World, how inept the Ministry can be, how much influence money has, how easily corruptible some people can be where power is concerned, and how adversity can bring others together (the five who helped Harry and the DA on the Hogwarts Express).

When Lucius escapes from Azkaban, I could see Ferret Boy involved in a plot to get revenge on the six involved in the Department of Mysteries battle. Draco wouldn't actually plan anything, of course, but through his father, he might manage to get some of the six in another situation that's similar.



SJ Rand - Jan 1, 2004 1:51 pm (#248 of 1825)
Conversely, the only way I could possibly see Draco returning to Hogwarts for the sixth year is if his father were somehow cleared of all charges, and they decided to rub that in Dumbledore's face.

Otherwise, his mother is sending him back to a school whose headmaster is one of the people that got Daddy locked up in the first place. Perhaps the main person who got him locked up.



Lady Nagini - Jan 1, 2004 5:36 pm (#249 of 1825)
Edited by Jan 1, 2004 4:36 pm
I'm not sure that Narcissa would take Draco out of Hogwarts without Lucius' permission. Since he's currently unavailable, she's going to wait until he's either cleared of all charges or until he breaks out of Azkaban.

Besides, how else is she going to find out what Dumbledore and Harry are planning? Without Lucius recieving information from Voldemort, she's going to need someone at Hogwarts. Yes, Draco's not exactly privy to either of their plans, but it's better than nothing.



Weeny Owl - Jan 1, 2004 6:11 pm (#250 of 1825)
Perhaps Narcissa is glad Lucius is in Azkaban. Perhaps she would be glad to have Draco away at Hogwarts and Lucius in prison and do what she wants for a change.

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Lady Nagini - Jan1, 2004 7:08 pm (#251 of 1825)
Edited by Jan 1, 2004 6:09 pm
Narcissa, the long-suffering, oppressed woman?



A-is-for-Amy - Jan2, 2004 9:35 am (#252 of 1825)
It was Lucius who wanted to send Draco to Durmstrang, according to Draco, and hism other thought it was too far away (Though what difference that makes, I have no idea - boarding school is boarding school). "Pity his mother loves him."



Lady Nagini - Jan2, 2004 2:00 pm (#253 of 1825)
Amy: boarding school is boarding school

Normally, that would be true, but Lucius was on the board of governors at Hogwarts when Draco was accepted, and I'm assuming he made frequent trips to the school. Maybe Narcissa wanted to be able to see Draco...?



I Am Used Vlad - Jan2, 2004 3:20 pm (#254 of 1825)
Didn't JKR say in an interview that Draco has the Hand of Glory. This would have little relevance if he were to transfer to Durmstrang. I think he will be back at Hogwarts, causing trouble for the students who he blames for his father's incarceration.



Choices - Jan3, 2004 10:29 am (#255 of 1825)
I definitely think Draco will be seeking revenge on those students who put his father away.



Devika - Jan4, 2004 1:02 am (#256 of 1825)
Choices... I think that's when we'll get to see that Malfoy isn't actually the smart guy that he pretends to be. It will be the perfect foil to expose his weaknesses, especially his stupidity. I know he isn't as stupid as Crabbe and Goyle, but he isn't too bright himself. And in trying to avenge his father's humilaition, I have a feeling he will come off looking really stupid. That might just be what he needs to stop him from acting the way he does.



Choices - Jan4, 2004 6:50 pm (#257 of 1825)
I agree with you Davika - well said.



Maollelujah - Jan4, 2004 6:59 pm (#258 of 1825)
And in trying to avenge his father's humilaition, I have a feeling he will come off looking really stupid. That might just be what he needs to stop him from acting the way he does.

I feel that Draco isn't stupid, nor untalented, he is just out of his league when dealing with the boy like no other. But JKR isn't going to let Draco best Harry in any major way.



Gina R Snape - Jan4, 2004 7:12 pm (#259 of 1825)
Phew! I finally caught up with this thread!

Ok, so I think Draco is rather sheltered and pampered and sees the times Harry & co. best him as nothing because he has pure evil and privilege backing him up.

There may not be too many "on screen" times when Draco got Harry with a good hex. But I for one assume they have happened. And even if they haven't, he's successfully made HRH very uncomfortable a number of times.

His inability to keep his mouth shut about vital things did not go unnoticed by his father in CoS. But I do believe he's slowly been let in on more as time has gone on. For example, he certainly seemed to know what was going on with the DE performance at the Quidditch World Cup.

As for Snape revoking his status as Prefect, that may not be possible. For one thing, children are generally ideologically protected at school, left out of the politics of their parents (even if we know they are influenced by them). Secondly, it could be the case of 'once a prefect, always a prefect.' But as a matter of fact, Draco himself hasn't done anything sooooo visibly horrible that it would warrent revoking his Prefect status. DD will likely keep an eye on the 'Inquisitorial Squad' but not outright punish them for taking advantage of the situation. I mean, he would likely expect a Slytherin to do that.

If Nott turns on Draco and there is a war within Slytherin, then the next 2 books will get very very interesting. I feel sorry for Snape trying to maange that lot. But it does raise the potention for the four houses to unite somewhat, which might be part of the puzzle needed to defeat Voldemort.

And in keeping in line with not having too much faith in Draco's understanding of consequences, I have a feeling he won't see himself the way others do regarding his father being in Azkaban. He'll probably walk around like the leader of the pack, proud that his dad got locked up (and angry), and hold the mantle as the son of a real 'bad boy.'



popkin - Jan4, 2004 9:13 pm (#260 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would want to switch schools.

At Hogwarts Draco's priviledged, he's the leader of his class, everyone laughs at his jokes (Slytherins, that is), his personal set of body guards doubles as his yes men, he's pampered by his head of house, and his mom likes having him nearby.

If he switched to Durmstrang, he'd start out as the low man on the totem pole. He might be on the receiving end for bullying, and the butt of jokes. His head of house might despise him. And his mom's cookies might get stale on the long trip to school.

What does he have to gain by changing schools?



Gina R Snape - Jan4, 2004 9:55 pm (#261 of 1825)
Yes, popkin, he might certainly be taunted for leaving Hogwarts. But the cookies...that has to be the biggest reason not to leave!



S.E. Jones - Jan9, 2004 1:42 am (#262 of 1825)
I don't really see Draco as stupid or dense, just excessively arrogant and prideful. I think he repeatedly does what he does, not because he doesn't understand that there are consequences, but because of this arrogance. Pride often overrides wisdom, unfortunately, and leads to avoidable mistakes and minor errors that turn into timebombs. I definately think Draco will remain at Hogwarts, for this reason, and will attempt revenge on Harry for putting his father in Azkaban and ruining his family name.



Flame Alligator - Jan9, 2004 7:19 am (#263 of 1825)
Draco could become as big a nemesis to Harry as Voldemort. He detests being outdone by Harry. He is perpetually in his father's shadow and in Harry's shadow. He may be top dog in Slytherin House but Harry is the best wizard currently enrolled at Hogwarts. These two inferiorities could be the makings of a new Dark Lord. I only have one problem with my own theory. Draco is not to bright and he is a coward. Instead of intelligence, he has cunning. Cunning can get you quite far when you are up for evil doing.

Draco might pick a more respectable route for his evil. (He usually does.) He might like to go to work in the Ministry of Magic and attempt to undue Harry that way. Draco will never best Harry at Hogwarts, especially, now that Lucius/Daddy is in jail.

If Voldemort isn't dispatched and becomes a perpetual nemesis, like Moriarity in the Sherlock Holmes books, Draco and Voldemort could join forces. I suppose this scenario has already been postulated.



Gina R Snape - Jan9, 2004 12:00 pm (#264 of 1825)
I wonder if Snape will have to put in double duty trying to control Draco and keep up his appearance at the same time. I mean, if Draco is really determined to get Harry in the next book, things could get quite out of hand. Draco might then question why Snape, as a death eater and friend of Malfoy, isn't helping.

I only hope Draco keeps it on the student level and doesn't get out of hand enough that intervention is needed. Because even if Draco doesn't ask Snape for his help, he may go too far on his own and Snape couldn't just smirk and chalk it up to boys being boys. But then, if it got that serious Dumbledore would surely get involved.

Ok, did that make sense? I just finished lunch and my blood sugar level is still a bit low!



Weeny Owl - Jan9, 2004 3:05 pm (#265 of 1825)
You're fine, Gina. I understand what you're saying.

I've wondered about just how close the relationship is between the Malfoys and Snape. Are Lucius and Snape just fellow Death Eaters or are they related? If they're related, then the relationship between Snape and Draco matters even more.

As a teacher, Snape's responsibility is to all the students at Hogwarts, and while we know he favors Slytherin, would he turn a blind eye if Ferret Boy tried to get revenge in a way that might be fatal?

I do think that while Draco might question Snape's loyalty to Voldie and the Death Eaters, he wouldn't push it too far. Snape may have to justify himself to Voldie and his fellow DEs, but he doesn't have to justify anything to a student.



nmnjr - Jan9, 2004 3:25 pm (#266 of 1825)
After what almost happened to Snape courtesy of Sirius, I don't think he'd allow anything that might be fatal, even if/ especially if it were Harry Potter.



timrew - Jan16, 2004 3:43 pm (#267 of 1825)
I've been thinking about this ever since reading OoP. Why has Ferret Boy been made a prefect? He's a nasty piece of work, a trouble-maker, a hater of authority (at Hogwarts, at least). Just look at the way he spoke to Percy (a prefect at the time), when he met him near the Slytherin common room in COS.

So why was he made a prefect, when it has to be assumed (before the fact) that he would abuse the position he'd been given, and treat members of other houses with contempt?

Don't tell me Dumbledore listened to a recommendation from Professor Snape. Surely DD is more intelligent than that?



mischa fan - Jan16, 2004 3:51 pm (#268 of 1825)
Crabbe, Goyle, or Malfoy, hmmm not really a tough choice, if he picked Crabbe or Goyle it would have been like picking Malfoy. Although their is still Teddy Nott, and maybe Blaise, but we don't know what kind of students they are, so maybe Bouncing Ferret Boy was the only choice.



timrew - Jan16, 2004 3:55 pm (#269 of 1825)
mischa fan, are you saying that Malfoy is the best of the Slytherins? No wonder Harry didn't want to go there!

Okay, I realise it was probably just JKR's idea of keeping the tension going; but to pick someone to be a prefect because of his notoriety as a trouble-maker....I think this needs some more explaining.



Weeny Owl - Jan16, 2004 5:17 pm (#270 of 1825)
Perhaps it has more to do with Snape and his undercover activities. If Snape hadn't asked that Ferret Face be made a prefect, Lucius would probably have questioned why. That might have caused Snape some problems with Lucius and the other Death Eaters.



Choices - Jan16, 2004 6:37 pm (#271 of 1825)
I'm with timrew - out of possibly as many as 200 - 250 Slytherins Malfoy is the best and brightest??? Give me a break! LOL



Dan Wells - Jan16, 2004 7:17 pm (#272 of 1825)
Perhaps Draco was the best connected or from the most powerful family. Or the wealthiest. Or the most pureblooded.

Maybe the Prefects are picked based upon each houses standards?



Sly Girl - Jan16, 2004 7:19 pm (#273 of 1825)
I'm with Jill.. I think it all has something to do with keeping the status quo. With that said, now that Lucius has been revealed as a DE, I hope to Merlin! JKR does not have Draco made a Head Boy in Book 7. Eek. I just thought of something... what if Draco isn't even alive in Book 7? Would she kill off the famous arch nemisis of Harry Potter?



Madame Librarian - Jan16, 2004 7:19 pm (#274 of 1825)
I think Weeny Owl is close to the correct reason. Snape probably conferred with DD...

"Professor Dumbledore, you realize it will raise some awkward questions if young Draco is not made prefect for Slytherin."

"Ah, yes, Severus, you are, of course, correct. I suppose we must keep up this charade you play so as not cause suspicion on the part of Malfoy, Sr. I do sincerely hope you will keep a rein on that boy, however. I dread to think of how the power of the prefect postion will only worsen his odius bullying tendencies."

Something like that.

Ciao. Barb



Weeny Owl - Jan16, 2004 9:09 pm (#275 of 1825)
I can see JKR doing something like that, Barb. You sound just like Dumbledore.

Sly, I've said it to you before... I'd love to see both Malfoys die slow and painful deaths. Maybe not in the sixth book, but a happy little post owl can hope.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure if JKR would kill off Ferret Face. If she doesn't, I hope she doesn't make him Head Boy. I could see Ernie MacMillan as Head Boy. He was certainly infuriated by Ferret Face's behavior while with the Inquisitorial Squad.

I think she'll have to keep him alive through the sixth book. I have a feeling that the huge dramatic scene near the end will be something having to do with Death Eaters invading Hogwarts and that Ferret Face will be how they get in. That's just a theory, and I have no evidence of it, but it's a scenario that I could see her writing.



Devika - Jan17, 2004 2:22 am (#276 of 1825)
I somehow always thought that Draco wasn't too dumb. He's not exceptionally intelligent, but quite shrewd. Plus I have also got the impression that he has quite a following... like he's a sort of leader. So I guess, coupled with the fact that his dad's a really powerful and influential person, it isn't that unusual for him to be a prefect. Of course, it is just as likely as someone mentioned earlier that he's just there to maintain the dynamics of his trysts with the trio! It is possible that DD wasn't fully supportive of Draco's selection, but seriously I don't find it difficult to imagine that there was no other worthy candidate. If there really was a boy really deserving in their year, we should have heard something about him! Then again, we can go into why Pansy Parkinson was chosen over Millicent Bulstrode!



Weeny Owl - Jan17, 2004 2:38 am (#277 of 1825)
Ferret Face is a leader of sorts, but is he a leader because of what he is or is he a leader because of who his father is?

Draco isn't dumb by any means, and he has definite Slytherin qualities. I just feel he epitomizes all that is wrong with Slytherin, and I truly hope we see other Slytherins who aren't so self-important and who hide behind their parents' influence.

If JKR doesn't kill Ferret Face in the sixth book, then I at least want her to do something horrid to him. After everything he's done, it's deserved.

I rarely feel vindictive toward anyone - real or fictional - but with him I'll make an exception.



popkin - Jan17, 2004 3:22 am (#278 of 1825)
Edited by Jan 17, 2004 2:22 am
Weeny Owl [/b]- Jan17, 2004 1:38 am (#277 of 278) If JKR doesn't kill Ferret Face in the sixth book, then I at least want her to do something horrid to him. After everything he's done, it's deserved.

What's he done? Draco hasn't been an angel by any stretch of the imagination, but, by wizarding world standards, he hasn't been that bad. Look at James Potter's behavior. He was horrid to "Snivellus". Did he deserve to die? Or did he deserve a second chance because he was a young man apt to make mistakes?

We don't know what kind of man Draco will become. He may yet surprise us. I'm just going to wait and see what kind of treatment he deserves.



Weeny Owl - Jan17, 2004 4:17 am (#279 of 1825)
popkin:

I won't compare James and Ferret Face, although I do see your point. No, James did not deserve to die.

What has Draco done? I suppose my revulsion for him began when he said in CoS, "So I bet it's only a matter of time before one of them's killed this time...I hope it's Granger."

He tried to get Hagrid fired and Buckbeak killed, he was happy about Cedric dying, and then there was the entire Inqusitorial Squad thing.

I suppose much of it is his using his father's influence and money but even more of it is his treatment of Hermione and the way he behaved toward her in the forest after the Quidditch World Cup.

I just don't see any change in him unless it's even more vile than what we've seen so far, and I am concerned about what he might do to get revenge for his father being in Azkaban.



Czarina - Jan17, 2004 7:36 am (#280 of 1825)
Draco was probably picked to be a prefect for Slytherin because anyone else (who might be more deserving of the job) would have been antagonised by him. If you compare the Slytherins to a pack of wolves, he is the head wolf. You do NOT cross the leader of the pack and you most certainly do NOT usurp his authority. If Dumbledore had made, say, Theodore Nott and Daphne Greengrass prefects, they would have been controlled by Malfoy and Pansy (who has taken on the persona of the queen ... of the pack VERY well) anyway. Why bother?



popkin - Jan17, 2004 8:36 am (#281 of 1825)
Edited by Jan 17, 2004 7:40 am
Weeny Owl, I am also leery of what Draco may be capable of. I am leery of what Harry may be capable of, too. I am not suggesting that Harry is a lot like Draco, but they are both at a crucial point in their lives, on the verge of adulthood. It is at this point that their choices will be most important in defining who they are.

Draco is a very spoiled boy right now. He has never had much responsibility. This summer might be a big leap into reality for Draco. His mother is going to have a lot to do and won't have as much time to pamper Draco. Daddy Malfoy is going to be unavailable and without influence. Draco might find himself in many circumstances that make him realize how very unprepared he is for life. Just like Harry, he might also start to realize that his Dad is not perfect. Maybe he'll come into his own in a much different way than we expect.

Draco is likely to follow the same behavior patterns we've seen before. But he might not. So, I'm going to wait to pass judgement on his character until he acts as a man. He comes of age in book 7. We'll see who he really is then.



Weeny Owl - Jan17, 2004 11:50 am (#282 of 1825)
popkin:

Those are good points. His summer will be quite a bit different from the usual one.

It will be interesting to see how the rest of Hogwarts relates to him and his cronies now. I'm sure there's quite a bit of resentment over what he did while with the Inqusitorial Squad. With Voldie finally acknowledged and his father a known Death Eater, Draco might find being a "celebrity" isn't all it's cracked up to be.



S.E. Jones - Jan20, 2004 10:28 am (#283 of 1825)
Choices: out of possibly as many as 200 - 250 Slytherins Malfoy is the best and brightest???

I thought there were only 10-12 Slytherins in Draco's year. I suppose he could be the best out of them quite easily. All in all, I have to agree with what Czarina said above, he does seem to be the "leader of the pack", at least among the kids in his house and of his year. Also, aren't the Prefects picked by the Heads of House (as in they make up a list of possilbe choices) and then the list of hopefuls sent to the Head Master for the final decision? What if Draco was the only one Snape recommended..?



rambkowalczyk - Jan21, 2004 5:09 pm (#284 of 1825)
Does anyone think that Draco will have enough cunning/sneakyness to turn in Dolores Umbridge for admitting that she was the one who sent the dementers to Harry the previous summer? Snape's lack of enthusiasm to giving her truth serum probably indicated to Draco that Umbridge no longer has favored status with the deatheaters any more. Therefore turning in Umbridge would give Draco a degree of respect/trust from the Ministry of Magic and maybe even from Dumbledore. What better way to start gaining trust from the DA group. In book 6 Draco will gain their trust so in book 7 he can show his true colors.



Choices - Jan21, 2004 6:08 pm (#285 of 1825)
I thought Draco had been showing his true colors since book one! LOL



Weeny Owl - Jan21, 2004 9:08 pm (#286 of 1825)
Snape didn't seem to have a lack of enthusiasm in giving Umbridge the Veritaserum. He simply said it would take a month to make more and that he told her that she should have used only three drops. I don't see how that would indicate to Draco that she is in disfavor with the Death Eaters.

After his behavior with the Inquisitorial Squad, I doubt if any member of the DA would ever trust him, and I doubt if Dumbledore has any respect for him or his father.



scully jones - Jan23, 2004 4:44 pm (#287 of 1825)
He had given her fake veritaserum before, dumbledore said something about it at the end.... So he would have stalled her and given her fake veritaserum again, right? He would have to act his normal harry-hating self in front of draco, of course..



Sharker11 - Jan25, 2004 6:53 pm (#288 of 1825)
Where is Draco ever cunning? He got into Slytherin because he wanted to (I'm assuming thats how the hat works). Look at the scene with Skeeter in GoF. That to me really represents the three of them well. Their not acting like 14 years olds, its more like 7 year olds playing war. He might not be stupid, but he isn't cunning.



popkin - Jan26, 2004 4:16 am (#289 of 1825)
I don't think any of the kids, other than Hermione, have show us yet what they're capable of. Like Harry, Draco hasn't buckled down and put a real effort into anything other than quiditch. If he grows up over the summer, with his Dad incarcerated and his Mom too busy to shower all her attention on her son, we might see a much more determined Draco emerge. He could take several different turns at that point - buckle down to his studies, wholeheartedly join the DEs, start a secret society of his own, or develop his cunning. I think the last posibility is the most likely. I think we're going to see a much more devious Draco in the next two books, and he's going to have some pretty elaborate schemes up his sleeves.



Sharker11 - Jan26, 2004 2:29 pm (#290 of 1825)
With tommy boy around and JKR already saying that OotP is going to be the longest book in the series, I don't see where Harry has the time to deal with him. Percentage wise we saw draco much less in OotP then any other book, simply because harry has more importent things to deal with then his tantrums.

Cunning is not something you sit down and say 'I need to develope some now.' If we has it and we havn't seen it, that fine, but we've seen nothing that can be called smart from him.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan26, 2004 2:56 pm (#291 of 1825)
I don't know, I thought that the Midnight Duel thing in book one was a pretty clever way of trying to get Harry caught out of bed after hours, even if it didn't work.



MrsGump - Jan26, 2004 5:43 pm (#292 of 1825)
Tom Riddle was a prefect, so why not Draco?

JKR keeps pointing out it's about the choices we make. Dumbledore seems to be the type to give anyone as many chances as it takes for them to make the right choice. Maybe making Draco prefect is an attempt to show him confidence, some concern...

I do think that by the end for the series, we will see some Slytherines choosing against the DE. The Sorting Hat was trying to make that point. Will it be Draco? Crabbe? Goyle?



Mad Madame Mim - Jan26, 2004 9:53 pm (#293 of 1825)
Has anyone read the essay on the Battle at the MoM? Here's the link if you need it:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(I hope I did that right, if not please for give me)

I find it interesting that Doyle was not there, but Crabbe was as well as Lucius Malfoy. Could the fact that Doyle was not there forshadow Doyle jr. choosing against the DE?

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Harry gets a bodygaurd? Draco would have kittens! Smile



Mad Madame Mim - Jan26, 2004 11:36 pm (#294 of 1825)
Oops! I mean Goyle! I always think of Draco's gang as being fruity.

I didn't seem to have an edit option after I posted the first message. Sorry for the double post.



Sharker11 - Jan27, 2004 12:22 am (#295 of 1825)
Good point about the duel in the PS, I forgot about it, but its still not enough, in my view, to call him cunning, as the trio handed that to him on a silver platter, and it was 5 years ago.



hopping hessian - Jan31, 2004 7:11 am (#296 of 1825)
Going way back up to something Weeny Owl said about DEs attacking Hogwarts and Draco letting them in. I could really see him doing something like that. He might be a snot and high and mighty, but I also see him as very insecure, thus the need to attack other people, especially Harry as he is the great hero. Draco needs his privalaged world to survive (at least in his mind). His father has been incarcerated and disgraced, his assisting DEs would be away he could help get them (and his father and himself) back on top. Though I'm sure Dumbledore would keep anything truly dreadful from happening. Of course, this is all my humble opinion.



VeronikaG - Feb 2, 2004 6:14 am (#297 of 1825)
To me it seems that Draco has not seen enough of what's really going on to know what he's talking about.

He's never seen Voldemort, except for that time in the Forbidden Forest (that was actually Quirrel he saw), and he was terrified at the sight.

He seems a bit jumpy at saying Voldemort.

He didn't see Cedric die. Actually, he's never seen anybody die, as far as we know, has he? (I suddenly got insecure here.) Making fun of it on the train was very brainless and insensitive, but he had just heard about it, not witnessed the murder like Harry did.

Maybe Draco's fear will keep him from involving in really dangerous business? Or, if he gets involved, something he experienced could lead to him changing his opinion.

It won't be easy to change Draco's ways, but I still see a little bit of hope for him. He's very young, it would be horrible for him to be doomed to evil at 16. I say he's got his best chance ever right now. With his father away, and under the influence of DD, he might still go good somehow.



boop - Feb 2, 2004 7:00 am (#298 of 1825)
Draco lives in a fantasy world. He has blinders on, so he only see's what straight head. That is the way he has been raised. I think if Draco would come face to face with Voldemort he would be terrified. I think the tuff guy stuff is just a act, after all he doesn't confront anyone without his back up. I to think there is still hope that Draco can see the whole picture without the blinders on.



Choices - Feb 2, 2004 10:39 am (#299 of 1825)
I don't hold out much hope of Draco changing - the accorn doesn't fall far from the tree. His father has always been his role model. Draco is fond of repeating what his father says and bragging about his (Lucius') connections at the MOM - he totally idolizes his father and aspires to be just like him. I see nothing in this behavior to indicate that Draco wants to change or is going to change. I don't think it's impossible, but I think he will have to have something really life changing happen to him - maybe a near death experience - for him to wake up and embrace goodness. Maybe if Voldemort kills Lucius or tries to kill Draco, that will jolt him into changing sides.



Czarina - Feb 2, 2004 1:20 pm (#300 of 1825)
"He has never seen anybody die...has he?"

Unless he saw someone die between Hagrid's first COMC lesson and the end of Book 5, no. He couldn't see the thestrals. Unless it was a REALLY good act (and the only act Malfoy has is his bravado -- he's not really that good of an actor) to make Hagrid look bad in front of Umbridge, I'd say our favourite Slytherin has lived a very sheltered life and has never seen anyone die -- much less anyone he cares about. Remember, he wanted Hermione to die in CoS. This is not, contrary to what many have said on this thread, a sign of evil in him; it's a sign of the fact that he really doesn't comprehend death. He just wants to get rid of his rival, who happens to be Hermione. He probably wished Ron were dead too (but the Basilisk wasn't attacking purebloods) and of course Harry, which he still does.

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Devika - Feb 3, 2004 6:22 am (#301 of 1825)
I agree Choices, there isn't much hope of Draco changing. I guess it will be an essential feature of a JKR book to have someone who will just fail to understand the gravity of the situation. Draco it seems will be the metaphor who fails to change with the world around him and then finds himself flat on the face. In my opinion, among the girls, it will be Cho who will do that role, though I have more hopes from her...



Padfoot - Mar 24, 2004 1:27 pm (#302 of 1825)
I have a question. When Mad Eye Moody changed Draco into a ferret, how come he wasn't hurt that badly? He was bouncing him off the walls and floor. I have assumed that the floor was stone, a hard surface. Ferrets can't take much bouncing. There would be broken legs and probably internal damage. So I would think that when Draco was turned back into his normal form, he also would have those injuries. Now I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't check to see if he did sustain any damage. Anyone remember?

I only ask because I have two ferrets that would be severely miffed at me if I bounced them off the walls. They manage to do that themselves (on carpet not stone).



Choices - Mar 24, 2004 6:55 pm (#303 of 1825)
There must be something protective in being a wizard - I remember in the dueling club they were knocked around pretty good by those spells they hurled at each other and no one got hurt. I guess it was only Draco's pride that was wounded.



Czarina - Mar 24, 2004 6:57 pm (#304 of 1825)
He might not have been thumped that hard against the floor and walls, either. He just might have been rather shook up.



hopping hessian - Mar 24, 2004 9:13 pm (#305 of 1825)
There must be something protective in being a wizard... -Choices #303

There has to be, or quidditch would be deadly and Neville would have died, and not bounced when his uncle dropped him out of the window.

I have always wondered if Fake Moody picked on Draco because his father did not suffer through prison for his lord, but instead pretended to have been cursed.



haymoni - Mar 25, 2004 7:26 am (#306 of 1825)
Yes, Lucius was a Death Eater that went free. Barty/Moody explains it to Harry after he takes him away from the maze.



Mad Madame Mim - Mar 25, 2004 9:20 am (#307 of 1825)
Here's is a bit of dramatic irony to chew on. If Draco and Umbridge were successful at detaining Harry, Hermione, Ron and the rest of the DA. Draco would have caused Harry and company to miss an important appointment with Daddy Lucius at the MoM. If that would have just happen think of the possibilities. If Lucius didn't kill Draco, Voldemort certainly would have.



Czarina - Mar 25, 2004 12:37 pm (#308 of 1825)
Nice catch, Madam Mim. Very ironic, indeed.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 25, 2004 12:45 pm (#309 of 1825)
Well, getting Harry expelled from Hogwarts, maybe even incarcerated in Azkaban, would likely mitigate any anger directed towards him.



OkieAngel - Mar 26, 2004 1:06 am (#310 of 1825)
Ooooooooo, there's a scene I'd love to see played out. Draco having to face Voldy whilst the Dark Lord decides whether or not to kill him for being an idiot. Bet he wouldn't have such bravado then. Wonder if Lucius would plead for his sons life, or just stand by and let it happen as an example to others??

Even if he does survive school, I just don't see our twitchy little ferret ever getting called up to the big leagues. He doesn't have the grit to make it as a full fledged DE, yet he's too slimy to be a good guy. So where does that leave him?? Seems to me it makes him expendable...





haymoni - Mar 26, 2004 6:31 am (#311 of 1825)
I've said it before - I don't think Draco is returning to Hogwarts. If that's the case, he may go over to Voldy now.



Choices - Mar 26, 2004 9:46 am (#312 of 1825)
I have to disagree - I don't think there is a chance Draco won't be at Hogwarts come 6th year. Draco and Harry are sort of like the kid versions of Voldemort and Dumbledore. They are antagonists and who would take over for Draco if he left Hogwarts. Harry has to have someone to be against at school and if not Draco....who? And who would Crabbe and Goyle hang around with if Draco left? They are way too thick to act on their own. No, no, Draco can't go and leave no one to aggravate the stew out of Harry, Ron and Hermione and leave Snape without a class "pet".



Mad Madame Mim - Mar 26, 2004 10:02 am (#313 of 1825)
Maybe I've read the Diary of Anne Frank (the play)too many times, but somehow I keep wanting to apply one of her lines: "Inspite of everything, I still believe people are really good at heart."

I see Draco as a scared little boy disparate for his father's approval. The only way Draco believes he can get his father's approval was to become his father. Draco seems to blindly support everything Lucius does without ever considering the morality of Lucius' actions or his. The only thing that matters to Draco is would it make Lucius proud. I think Draco has been playing this game for so long that he doesn't know who he is. Draco hasn't shown us if he has an identity other than being Lucius' son.

Now that Lucius is in Azkaban, Draco's golden idol has tarnished. He has lost his hero. During summer break will Draco's allegence to his father change? Probably not. JKR hasn't developed him much since the first book, he is still a mini Lucius.

Here are my questions: How much does Draco know about the DE and Voldemort's plans. While daddy is in jail and unable to maintain his powerful hold over Draco, will Draco be able to keep his mouth shut or will he spill the beans? Will Draco be one of the first student fatalities of WVII? Which side will be responsible for his death if he does die? Will Draco for do the right thing?

I'm sorry if this is a haphazard post, my two year old is very demanding today. Ahh, the joys of motherhood. Smile



Padfoot - Mar 26, 2004 10:07 am (#314 of 1825)
I wonder if Draco will do the right thing and then get caught in the cross fire and be killed? I don't think Voldy or his dad will kill him. I think he might just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 11:19 am (#315 of 1825)
Mim, I doubt there is a whole lot of love lost between the younger and elder Malfoy. True, Draco resented Harry putting his father in prison, but I'm not sure that was due to any love or family loyalty on Draco's part. I suspect it was more resentment for the loss of status it cost Draco.

What is Draco without his father's position and money? A nobody. He might even lose the loyalty of Crabbe and Goyle.

Will Draco return to Hogwarts next year? If he does, it will be torture for Draco. He has lost everything that is important to him. He might not return as prefect, since he abused it so badly last year.

To cap it all off, his chances of taking it out on Harry are slim to none. Harry will have tremendous status and prestige. Nobody is going to want to be seen supporting Draco (the nobody) against Harry (the somebody), unless they are people with nothing to lose. Who wants to be preceived as that low?

And Harry is not particularly afraid of Draco. As Harry said, "I suppose Voldemort was just a warm-up for you?" Harry has moved on. Can Draco? I have my doubts.



Madame Librarian - Mar 26, 2004 11:40 am (#316 of 1825)
I have never held that Draco was stupid. He's just arrogant and blind to the worthiness of all those who are not exactly like him, i.e., pureblood. Given that the kid isn't IQ-challenged IMO, I don't think he'd try a direct confrontation with Harry (I mean other than verbal ones). He's got to credit the fact that here's a kid who has battled the best of the worst and won. Unlike previous Harry v. Voldie battles, which could have been made up or told in such a way that lessened Harry's talent/luck/bravery/whatever, this battle was witnessed by many and the losers are sitting in the Big A right now.

At least at the beginning of book 6, I see Draco being cautious in that he now may understand what a powerful wizard Harry is.

Cioa. Barb



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 11:44 am (#317 of 1825)
No, Barb, he isn't stupid, unless you are talking about his refusal to drop his obsession with Harry Potter. It is hurting Draco far more than it is hurting Harry.



Tomoé - Mar 26, 2004 11:45 am (#318 of 1825)
I think Draco will follow almost the same path than James Potter, so JKR won't have to tell the whole story of James, she'll just make someone tell Harry than he did like Draco did.



Denise P. - Mar 26, 2004 11:54 am (#319 of 1825)
Tomoé, I am not following what you're saying here. You lost me after the whole story of James..... ::::feeling slow and confused::::::



Emily - Mar 26, 2004 11:58 am (#320 of 1825)
I think Tomoé is saying that Draco will be an arrogant git through book 6, and then grow up, like James did.



Tomoé - Mar 26, 2004 12:00 pm (#321 of 1825)
And he will grow out of it for the same reasons than James (whatever is James's reasons).



Denise P. - Mar 26, 2004 12:00 pm (#322 of 1825)
Ah...that makes sense then. I read over the statement several times and was just lost.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 12:54 pm (#323 of 1825)
I don't hold out much hope for Draco's reclaimation. While it IS true that he could suddenly decide to reform and become all sweetness and light, Rowling has shown a decided aversion to happy endings for the sake of happy endings. If it were not so, Sirius would not of died.

No, I think a more likely fate for dear Draco would be dying at the hands of Lord Voldemort.



haymoni - Mar 26, 2004 1:36 pm (#324 of 1825)
JKR has said Draco is NOT Tom Felton. I know I read elsewhere that she found it odd that people like Draco. She actually has called him some nasty names.

I just don't think Ferret Boy will redeem himself.



Padfoot - Mar 26, 2004 1:42 pm (#325 of 1825)
Again, another mention of Malfoy as "Ferret Boy"! I wish she had turned Malfoy into something other than a ferret. It highly disgraces the ferret.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 2:06 pm (#326 of 1825)
Actually, Padfoot, I tend to call him "Slug-boy" in honor of his condition at the end of PoA. :-)



Padfoot - Mar 26, 2004 2:07 pm (#327 of 1825)
Aaahhh yes, Slug-Boy works much better.



haymoni - Mar 26, 2004 2:07 pm (#328 of 1825)
I like Slug Boy, but he'd have to share it with Crabbe & Goyle.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 2:09 pm (#329 of 1825)
Yes, but he gets to be THE slug-boy.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 2:11 pm (#330 of 1825)
Or Slug-boy with a capital 'S'. :-)



Czarina - Mar 26, 2004 5:17 pm (#331 of 1825)
Now we are disgracing the slug.



Weeny Owl - Mar 26, 2004 9:29 pm (#332 of 1825)
In the latest PoA trailer, when Hermione punches Draco (in the book it's a slap but in the trailer it's a punch ) she calls him a vile, foul, loathsome cockroach... or something like that.

I don't see Draco's redemption at all. I can see him wanting revenge for his father being in Azkaban as well as for all the negative publicity.

I think he'll still be at Hogwarts, and that the trio, Ginny, Luna, and Neville better be very careful. I think the situation is going to escalate and that Draco is going to find a way to sneak the Death Eaters into Hogwarts near the end of the sixth book.



Weeny Owl - Mar 26, 2004 10:15 pm (#333 of 1825)
Unfortunately it's too late to edit my previous post, but here is a link to the screencaps of Hermione punching Roach Boy:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Madame Librarian - Mar 27, 2004 7:42 am (#334 of 1825)
Czarina, it's OK by me to disgrace the slug. They are --ewww-- the worst!

Ciao. Barb



Czarina - Mar 27, 2004 8:24 am (#335 of 1825)
Methinks there are worse things than the slug -- cockroaches do come to mind, though they aren't that common where I live anyway, so I've hardly even seen one.

I don't think Malfoy will be redeemed in the way that people maybe hope. I think that if he isn't killed by the end of the series, he will be forced to endure a lifetime of shame. He would be left without a fancy mansion, little money and no influence and just forced to be upset about it. Or he would be irreversibly damaged and forced to remain in St.Mungo's. He wouldn't be redeemed, but could you go on hating him? Hmmm.

For Bk6, I don't think Draco is going to change at all. He's going to be angrier and have MUCH less influence over his Slytherins. Some of them will probably join the DA (if it still exists in some form) and leave Draco in the cold -- which he deserves.



rambkowalczyk - Mar 28, 2004 8:36 am (#336 of 1825)
Both Draco and count Dracula were named after the same constellation, therefore I predict Smile that Draco will be turned into a vampire and will be a miserable creature for eternity.



Czarina - Mar 28, 2004 11:52 am (#337 of 1825)
Haha Very Happy!

Actually, Dracula wasn't named for a constellation. His name, "Dracula", means "son of the dragon." His father, Dracul, was given the name because he was leader of the Order of the Dragon, a pseudo-Christian military order formed to fight the Turks in the Balkans. Therefore, I don't think there can be a reasonable connection made between Dracula and Draco. Same name, completely different connotations.



Madame Librarian - Mar 28, 2004 9:07 pm (#338 of 1825)
Czarina, the names are very related because "draco" is Latin for dragon. Look here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ciao. Barb



Czarina - Mar 29, 2004 8:00 am (#339 of 1825)
"the names are very related because "draco"is Latin for dragon."

I know that, but thanks for pointing it out. I just don't think that there's a real connection beyond that similarity of meaning. Draco Malfoy appears to be named after the constellation, following in the tradition of his mother's family. Dracula was not named after the constellation, though the similarity between the names gives the name Draco a sinister connotation. The only things Draco hasin common with Dracula (whether the fictional vampire or the sadistic Prince Vlad Dracula of Transylvania)are a name and some slight sadism. I don't think Malfoy is in any way about to impale Muggles by the hundreds, though! He's really too much of a wimp to be so cruel.



rambkowalczyk - Mar 30, 2004 7:22 pm (#340 of 1825)
I learn something new every day.



hopping hessian - Mar 31, 2004 7:00 am (#341 of 1825)
I don't think Malfoy is in any way about to impale Muggles by the hundreds, though! He's really too much of a wimp to be so cruel [Czarina #339]

He does seem to be a man [boy? guy?] of many words and few actions and when threatened always runs to Daddy or someone in authority. His yellow streak might explain his reaction to the dementors on the train (or was there some memory at work that we know nothing about?).



Zoe's dad - Apr 1, 2004 12:04 am (#342 of 1825)
Maybe not a memory, but the thought that someday his daddy may lose his prestige and power...oh wait, that actually happened later on. he he he

Dan



Catherine - Apr 2, 2004 1:39 pm (#343 of 1825)
I have already posted some theories in other threads about Draco being a thief, so I won't revisit that here. I posted some ideas about Neville, and thought I would repost the part about Draco here, to see what others think.

I've always wondered if there was a reason that Malfoy tried to steal Neville's Remembrall, aside from the undeniable fact that he is a bullying git. Draco is certainly more "in the know" about the wizarding world than Harry, and at times he knows things that Ron doesn't (Tri-Wizard Tournament, that Sirius supposedly Black betrayed Lily and James). Many of us on the forum strongly suspect that Neville has had a memory charm placed upon him. What if Draco, perhaps from listening in on DE conversations or even being told outright, knows that Neville knows something important? After all, it is Draco's aunt Belletrix, along with her husband who are in Azkaban for using the Cruciatus Curse on Neville's parents. I notice in SS that Draco tries to take the Remembrall at the breakfast table when Neville first receives it, and then again during the Flying class.

And, we know that Neville thinks that he has lost his Remembrall. What if Draco stole it, this time successfully?



Prefect Marcus - Apr 2, 2004 2:05 pm (#344 of 1825)
Interesting idea, Catherine. It certainly is worth thinking about.

Of course, it depends upon the Neville-memory-charm theory which seems less likely after Neville's awakening in OoP. As McGonagall said, there is nothing wrong with Neville that a little confidence can't cure. And he seems to have gain his confidence now.



Catherine - Apr 3, 2004 12:49 pm (#345 of 1825)
Marcus, I agree my theory does hinge upon Neville's memory, but not totally on whether he has been the subject of a memory charm. We know that Neville, whether by magical means or not, has a terrible memory. It has been emphasized many times throughout the novels. His improvement in OotP did not rest upon having an improved memory (I have my own theories about what Crouch/Moody did to Neville, and about the Mimbulus Mimbletonia, but that's a whole other thread!)

I just think Draco was a little TOO eager to get his hands on that Remembrall. When Harry demanded it back, Draco tried to throw it in a tree. He may just be a nasty git, but maybe he doesn't want Neville to remember something.

Nothing definite, I know, but worth thinking about.



draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 1:40 am (#346 of 1825)
I like Draco. And I like him just the way he is- nasty. Note the fact that I said nasty instead of evil. Unpleasant maybe but I don't he's really graduated up to being EVIL.

But redemption's not too bad either. In one of her interviews J.K.R, when asked if there was hope for redemption, she said there is always hope. So, maybe our little captain peroxide has a little redemption coming his way,

Redemption or no redemption I will always like Draco... the little git!



Czarina - Apr 5, 2004 7:10 am (#347 of 1825)
Draco is a well-written character. I hate him so much that I like it and enjoy reading about his misadventures. Since they usually backfire, it's hilarious.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 5, 2004 8:34 am (#348 of 1825)
To be honest, I don't think he's that well written. In fact, I think he's JKR's currently worst written character. I don't know anyone else who is worse, at least not out of the main and supporting characters. It's just that he didn't develop since book 2. He's always the same. I think he is seriously in for a character development, being a positive or negative, because there was a time, when I liked him, not as a person, but as a character. But currently he just bores me. But I will admit that I also think this development will come, now that daddy dearest in prison. I think more likely is, that he will become truly evil, because he's already on the best way. But I won't care either way, as long as he finally develops.



Denise P. - Apr 5, 2004 8:49 am (#349 of 1825)
I have to agree, to this point, Draco as a character is pretty flat. What you see is what you get with Draco, he has not changed or evolved from the foul, loathsome evil little cockroach we first saw back in PS/SS. He is almost a caricature of an evil character...a little over the top and laughable but not really that frightening. I am not sure that he will surprise us all and we will see more of him but right now, he is not really that interesting since we all know (we think) what motivates him. You know the song Henry the 8th? This is Draco...second verse, same as the first.



Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 9:09 am (#350 of 1825)
Edited by Apr 5, 2004 9:10 am
I don't get the impression that Draco is badly written. I've known too many like him for that. True, he hasn't developed since CoS, but is that Rowling's fault or his?

Book #6 promises to change all that. As we saw at the end of OoP, the Draco of old has ceased to be relavent to Harry, a minor annoyance at best.

Rowling needs a fellow-student as an adversary to Harry. Draco is already there. So I suspect he will finally start growing up.

Let's face it, Draco hasn't needed to grow up. He is the only child of a prestigious family with a great deal of wealth and power. People (especially Slytherins) would support him mainly for the benefits of being on his good side. He has lost that to some extent. Daddy is now in prison. Siding with Draco will be viewed as siding with Voldemort.

Draco is going to have to learn to stand on his own two feet, or risk losing it all.

Book #6 should be fun.

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Draco Malfoy Empty posts 351 to 400

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DJ Evans - Apr 5, 2004 7:19 pm (#351 of 1825)
I agree right along with most of you here. To me Draco is just a "void" character. What I mean by that is, he depends on others (his Dad mostly!!!) to give him worth. Does he ever have a thought/feeling of his own that he hasn't stolen from someone else? Look at his friends--two goons who just follow whatever he does or says--so there really isn't anything going "into" Draco to give him growth. You might say, well we all follow our parents, etc., yes we do, but we grow and form our own opinions--Draco doesn't!!! But I think now that his Dad has been caught as a Death Eater, you most likely will see Draco's character growing.

And believe it or not, I like Draco--just wish there was more substance to him and I think that is just around the corner for him.



The giant squid - Apr 5, 2004 11:08 pm (#352 of 1825)
I agree, Marcus. Draco's been pretty stable for the last five years, but his happy little lifestyle has just been turned on its ear. I definitely think we'll see a change in the ferroach ( a cross between a cockroach and a ferret Wink ), I'm just not sure which way he'll go. There's a chance he'll see the error of his ways and turn to the side of good (the whole redemption thing) but I think it's more likely that he'll get even nastier.

--Mike



Catherine - Apr 6, 2004 4:52 am (#353 of 1825)
It's been interesting to read the back-and-forth comments about Draco.

I have thought that Draco's a little one-sided, myself. But I don't think that's a mistake by Rowling. I think that Harry only knows one side to Draco. The closest to Harry has come to seeing another side to Draco was in Borgin's shop (CoS) when Draco is whining and Lucious taunts him that Hermione beat him in every subject. Harry knows what it's like to be taunted and bullied, but he doesn't seem to connect that with Draco here.

OotP showed Harry developing new insights or understanding about some people. For a brief moment, Harry felt a kinship with Aunt Petunia for the first time. After the pensieve incident, Harry knew how badly James had made Snape feel. Harry felt empathy toward Luna when he realized that she endured constant teasing, and bore it so serenely. So while Harry doesn't think that Petunia and Snape are wonderful, he does see them in a more dimensional way.

So, while I doubt that Draco will become really good, he might somehow convince Harry that he's not completely loathsome. Admittedly, it might be easier to convince US as the readers before Harry, Ron, or Hermione that Draco's not all bad!



hopping hessian - Apr 6, 2004 6:07 am (#354 of 1825)
I think that Harry only knows one side to Draco.

This is true. Sometimes it's easy to forget that we see (almost) everything through a Harry filter. It isn't like Harry hangs out with Draco, he has only seen him with his guard down once (CoS). Actually, scratch that. I don't think he ever has his guard down. Not even with his two favorite goons. Draco must be lonely. Yeah, he has his followers, but they're just that-followers. Does he really have any friends?



Essidji - Apr 6, 2004 9:32 am (#355 of 1825)
Oh, I don't care if he has or hasn't got any friends. Draco is a character I just love hating. Like if he cristallized every detestable part of mankind. Well, it's only my opinion, though...



Czarina - Apr 6, 2004 11:47 am (#356 of 1825)
"Does he really have any friends?"

Himself.

And maybe he has a teddy bear or something? (Somehow, I find it hard to picture Draco with a teddy bear, but it's not impossible. He treats Crabbe and Goyle like a security blanket!) :-)

While I can't say that I like Draco, I can't say that I only see him as a little git. It is true to say that JKR has only really shown us one side of him. Otherwise, she gives us clues to read between the lines. I find it interesting that in OoP, when he taunts Harry and the Weasley twins about their parentage, his goons don't come to his rescue. They are occupied, or at least Crabbe is (he is getting lectured by Madam Hooch), and yet Draco still thinks he can get away with his usual insults. He must have either thought that his loyal "friends" would protect him anyway, or that the Gryffindors were too cowardly to attack him.

Malfoy thinks only about himself, but in many instances, his primary goal is to get recognition. From his point of view, he is never recognized FOR HIMSELF, always as his father's son. (He likes that status, but is still trying to break away from his daddy entirely.) Meanwhile, Harry Potter has more fame that he could hope to have; Hermione Granger (a mudblood, no less) is and will always be smarter than him; now even Ron Weasley, only famous before for being Potter's friend, is on the Quidditch team! What has Draco done? Been a spoiled brat for five years! All he has going for him is his wealthy, aristocratic lineage.

His main problem is that no matter what he does, his father's money helps. He wanted on the Quidditch team, so his father made sure he was, for example. And does Draco ever get any attention? Not very often. In GoF, he arranged interviews with Rita Skeeter so that HE would get his name in the newspaper. Even there, his father's name is mentioned (I think). In OoP, he writes the very corny and very cruel "Weasley is our King," which proves that he has no artistic brilliance, but also that his father didn't write it for him! After the game, he makes SURE that the Gryffindors know it was him who wrote the lyrics. They could figure that out for themselves, but he wanted to draw the attention to himself.



Padfoot - Apr 6, 2004 11:52 am (#357 of 1825)
Isn't Draco good at potions? I don't think Crabbe and Goyle are however. I thought I read somewhere that Snape was praising Draco. Can't remember where I read that, so maybe I just imagined it.



Weeny Owl - Apr 6, 2004 8:13 pm (#358 of 1825)
I can see Draco being even nastier in the sixth book. He's going to be out for revenge because he blames Harry and company for Lucius being in Azkaban. It doesn't matter to him that Lucius was caught red-handed at the Ministry.

The only way I can see him changing is if he encounters a situation where he realizes that Voldie and the Death Eaters are truly a lost cause and need to be destroyed. I'm not sure what would change his opinion, though. Maybe if Voldie had one or both of his parents killed it might change him.



Essidji - Apr 7, 2004 1:30 am (#359 of 1825)
I could see him well helping Harry as they both would be in a desperate situation, (but only the two of them) and when they get back successfully at Hogwarts he would act just as if nothing ever happened.



Catherine - Apr 7, 2004 5:53 am (#360 of 1825)
Essidji,

Your post reminded me of another time when two enemies have been forced to work together.

Remember in GoF when Dumbledore ordered Sirius and Snape to shake hands because now they were on the same side?

I wonder if Draco and Harry will come to that place also. Hard to imagine that now, though!



draco all the way - Apr 7, 2004 7:49 am (#361 of 1825)
Up till now I really don't see Draco's purpose at all. He's just always been there. He's not really affected the overall result of any of Harry's escapades so far. Yet he has always been highlighted. He has always been a little bit more important than other Hogwarts students. So it seems to me that Draco will serve a higher pupose in the next books. But whether his purpose is for good or bad is debatable. Catherine Allen, I've always thought that it mght end up like that. If Draco ever is redeemed (oh please, oh please..) I've always thought the situation would be similar to the relationship between Snape and Harry. They will always hate each other but for the good of mankind they will fight side by side. It's a nice epic theme isn't it? Like Arthur said in PoA 'sometimes you have to join forces with those you'd rather avoid'.



hopping hessian - Apr 7, 2004 10:26 am (#362 of 1825)
Up till now I really don't see Draco's purpose at all. He's just always been there.

I always thought his purpose was to put things in perspective. In the first book, he is one of the baddies and he makes Harry's life really difficult. However, with each passing year his importance decreases, just as in real life, what other kids think of you at school loses importance.

Also, I think that he is good for a comparison between Harry and Snape. In a way Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape. I see alot of similarities between the two (Harry and Snape) and hope that they will see that they both had rotten childhood/teenage years and there will be some sort of understanding.



timrew - Apr 7, 2004 3:04 pm (#363 of 1825)
Draco is way too one-dimensional at the moment. At the end of OOP, he has his back against the wall. His only 'friends' are Crabbe and Goyle, and all their dads are in Azkaban. He (and Crabbe and Goyle) will be treated like (the) poison (they are) at Hogwarts.

JKR will either have to radically change his character (give him at least another dimension, or have him quit Hogwarts forever). He is no longer anything like a match for Harry, and neither are Crabbe or Goyle.

I must admit, I've tried to see where JKR will take Draco, but so far, I've no idea!



Loopy Lupin - Apr 7, 2004 4:05 pm (#364 of 1825)
I agree with you tim. In my view, Draco ceased being much of a character after POA. After that, his taunts became less angering (Oooh! I hate him!) and more annoying and pathetic (What a little baby!). In any case, he's never been much of a rival with Harry having much more to worry about from more formidable opponents.

I don't know where JKR will go either, but I've speculated that his father's current predicament could cause change in him, could cause him to "see the light" to a degree. If that's not where she's going, I hope she just ships him off to Durmstrang.



Prefect Marcus - Apr 7, 2004 4:18 pm (#365 of 1825)
I have to agree with the last sentiments expressed. If Rowling doesn't do something with him, he becomes totally irrelevent and might as well be shipped off to Durmstrang.

Does he "see the light"? I sort of hope not. One of the major themes of the series is the consequences of choices, and Draco is the poster boy for bad choices.

Perhaps the kicker will be the fact that Draco and Harry will be in most of the same NEWT classes together. Before, Harry had to endure him for Potions and Magical Creatures. Now he has to endure him nearly all day long.



Loopy Lupin - Apr 7, 2004 4:28 pm (#366 of 1825)
That's a possibility, but what to do with him for Book 6? They take NEWTS in 7th year, no?

Draco is the poster boy for bad choices. But, perhaps he ultimately chooses to turn his back on purity of blood, his family and, indeed, evil to fight alongside Harry. One might wonder if Snape is laying the groundwork for this type of thing. He, Snape, has presumably made that choice himself.



Maollelujah - Apr 7, 2004 4:55 pm (#367 of 1825)
Draco is way too one-dimensional at the moment. At the end of OOP, he has his back against the wall. His only 'friends' are Crabbe and Goyle, and all their dads are in Azkaban. He (and Crabbe and Goyle) will be treated like (the) poison (they are) at Hogwarts.

Once you take Harry out of the mix, there aren't too many other characters that aren't one dimensional. Draco has a job to do and does it very well (to antagonize Harry). He's funny, smart and probably one of the more talented students at Hogwarts. I think by the time he reaches adulthood, his dear old dad will be proud of him.

JKR will either have to radically change his character (give him at least another dimension, or have him quit Hogwarts forever). He is no longer anything like a match for Harry, and neither are Crabbe or Goyle.

I do think that he is probably a match for Harry if it came to pure spellcasting skills. I can't remember Harry ever getting the best of Draco one on one or even three on three. Usually when Draco is about to pounce there is always someone else around to save Harry. His one big problem is his ring partners are Goyle and Crabbe, neither the most talented.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 7, 2004 5:43 pm (#368 of 1825)

Once you take Harry out of the mix, there aren't too many other characters that aren't one dimensional.


I disagree completely. Even considering that we see all of them from Harry's point of view, about everyone is more multi-dimensional than Draco. Ron is a loyal friend, but he feels also overshadowed and is jealous sometimes. Hermione is a bossy know-at-all with a pretty frightening side (see "Sneak spell"), yet she is helpful to those who need her and also a loyal friend. Hagrid has a big heart, but is also completely irresponsible. I won't even start about Snape. Sirius is the beloved and helpful godfather, yet he he also wallows in self-pity (to quote Phineas), was a school bully and actually nearly got Snape killed. Lupin ia a kind and gentle man, yet he never told somebody about Sirius being an animagus, when he thought him to be a murderer. McGonagall, Neville, Molly, the twins, Percy, Fudge, Cho, Trelawney, Petunia, James, Madame Maxime, Krum, Fleur, both Crouches, Kreacher, Winky, Moody, the centaurs, Luna and even Phineas Niggelus are all more multi-dimensional than Draco, although some of them only appeared in one book, while Draco is always around.

Draco basically remains the same annoyance he was in the beginning, without the slightest development.


I think by the time he reaches adulthood, his dear old dad will be proud of him.


Actually, I think by the time he reaches adulthood his dear old dad will be dead. ;-)



Maollelujah - Apr 7, 2004 6:17 pm (#369 of 1825)
Once you get past Ron and Hermione, I think Draco has about as much depth as the rest of the characters. He's smart, he's funny, he likes to nick things, he loves his parents, he is a leader, he has loyal friends, he values his hide a lot etc...

I think Draco falls into the Cho category of characters that people don't like, so they fail in comparision with the more popular characters that everyone embellishes.



Prefect Marcus - Apr 7, 2004 9:59 pm (#370 of 1825)
Careful, Maollelujah. The only thing we have record of Draco nicking is Neville's Remembral. The klepto image is from the movies, CoS in particular.

Actually, I like Cho. I've always liked Cho. I think her very well written. I think too many people of Jealous of her for Ginny's and/or Hermione's sake.

Marcus



Tomoé - Apr 8, 2004 2:14 am (#371 of 1825)
We already saw another side of Draco, and many times. I'll have to remember the events on the top of my head, I'm at my parent's for a couple of days and didn't bring my books along.

PS, the flying lesson, Draco got the Remembrall, taunted Harry to come and get it. Surprisingly, Harry didn't make a fool of himself, he's amazingly good in fact for a first time on a broomstick and Harry now threatened to knock Draco off his broom. Harry said something like "Not that brave when Crabbe and Goyle are not there." and that's exactly what Draco looked like.

PS, the Forbidden Forest, Draco was in detention and had to help Hagrid to find a injured unicorn. He complained a lot on the way to Filch, then tried to argue with Hagrid, but he either goes along or gets himself expel. He went along, claimed Fang for himself, Draco was afraid, unsafe, he was going in a place he didn't know, with a lot of creature he didn't know how to deal with, where his father name had no power. He stayed together until he encountered the dead unicorn and the thing that was drinking its blood. Draco ran for it with Fang.

PoA, the Hogwarts Express, George told Harry how Draco enter their compartment when the Dementors enter the train and almost wet himself out of fear.

PoA, the first CoMC lesson, Draco didn't feel safe at all with the hippogriffs, he didn't trust Hagrid's judgment on what's wild and what's not (who can blame him ^_^) and even with Crabbe and Goyle, he felt unsafe. Only when Harry came back in one piece after following Hagrid's directives, Draco became overconfident and got himself bitten.

OoP, the Thestral lesson, Hagrid was back after four months of Professor Grubbly-Plank's teaching, and the half-giant wanted them to go in the Forbidden Forest, not telling what he wanted to show them. Draco follow the group but sounded unsafe again.

By the way, I don't think CoMC was Draco's choice, it was Crabbe and Goyle's. Draco came along because he didn't want to be alone in another subject and couldn't ask Crabbe ang Goyle to take Arythmancy or ancien runes. They didn't take Muggle Studies for sure, CoMC and Divination are the likely choices for Crabbe and Goyle, therefore for Malfoy. Will Draco stay with C&G for his NEWTs? (Talking of NEWTs, you're right Loopy Lupin, they take NEWTs in 7th year, but they choose their advanced subject and begin to study them in year 6, or they will if JKR still follow the British school system)

Does anyone have other examples of Draco freaking out?



Essidji - Apr 8, 2004 2:37 am (#372 of 1825)
Oh, when (fate) Moody turned him into a boucing ferret, of course!! LOL



Tomoé - Apr 8, 2004 2:49 am (#373 of 1825)
How could I forget that one !



Neville Longbottom - Apr 8, 2004 2:55 am (#374 of 1825)
But Draco freaking out doesn't make him any more multi-dimensional. In fact, it just shows that he is a coward, when he can't rely on his father or Crabbe and Goyle. This doesn't make him any better. I won't even start about him stealing things. Tell me one scene, where Draco was shown in a not completely unsympathetic light, and I might change my opinion. And I don't think that is simply to explain with the fact, that we see everything from Harry's point of view: Harry hates Snape, yet we have seen some good sides of the Potions Master. Harry wants nothing to do with Petunia (and has good reasons), but nonetheless we learn that she took him in. Even Dudley was shown in a pitiful light after the Dementor's attack. Vernon, as horrible as he is, at least loves Petunia and Dudley (and no, I don't think Vernon or Dudley and to a lesser extent Petunia are very multi-dimensional so far, but they are written as caricatures on purpose. They are over-the-top characters, and yet I find them more human and understandable than Draco). Even Bellatrix Lestrange is at least loyal and honest and went to Azkaban willingly. Is there only one good side Draco has shown during these books?



Tomoé - Apr 8, 2004 3:16 am (#375 of 1825)
With his father at Azkaban and the effect of the Malfoy name ruined (for a time at least), Draco will be in a inescapable Forbidden Forest, especially if the other Slytherins become less friendly, because they have nothing to gain anymore by associating themselves with the Malfoy name. That could be the beginning of the new Malfoy.

He won't turn his way by 180°, I don't expect anyone to do so in Harry Potter. Snape, Sirius and James didn't so far, they just change their priorities. The same could be said of Hermione, she still bossy and know-it-all, but she break rules when it suit her purpose. Draco will stay Draco, but he could find Lucius's way is not the best after all and find a better one that still fit with Draco's personality and ambitions. Maybe Draco's way will lead in the same direction that Harry's maybe not, and maybe Ron's or Hermione's will lead them away from Harry's. Only JKR knows.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 8, 2004 3:21 am (#376 of 1825)

With his father at Azkaban and the effect of the Malfoy name ruined (for a time at least), Draco will be in a inescapable Forbidden Forest, especially if the other Slytherins become less friendly, because they have nothing to gain anymore by associating themselves with the Malfoy name. That could be the beginning of the new Malfoy.


I agree. That's my big hope for development with Draco. If he doesn't develop now, than he never will.



Loopy Lupin - Apr 8, 2004 6:12 am (#377 of 1825)
Gasp! Is it possible that we could even come to have sympathy for Draco in the next book? Father in Azkaban, family fortune seized by the Ministry (or eaten up in fees by Wizard lawyers trying to spring him, more like), and Draco shunned by the other Slytherins because his robes are now shabby? Its an interesting possibility and I agree that Lucius having an extended stay in Azkaban and the Malfoys otherwise falling on hard times could be a catalyst for a new Draco.



rambkowalczyk - Apr 8, 2004 8:23 am (#378 of 1825)
Someone mentioned the James/Snape to Draco/Harry. But the analogy could just as easily be James/Snape to Harry/Draco. Lupin stated that James always hated the Dark Arts and that Snape knew more curses in his first year than most 7th years. When Harry thinks about bullying, he's against it unless the victim happened to be Draco. Then he's willing to make a special exception. Harry's prejudices are the same as his fathers. Even Lupin admits that in Jame's 7th year he stopped picking on students, "Snape was a special case". Obviously the main difference is that Harry isn't as arrogant as his father was and doesn't pick on weaker students just because he thinks he can get away with it.



Padfoot - Apr 8, 2004 8:29 am (#379 of 1825)
When Draco was turned into a ferret I felt sorry for him then, bouncing along. Ok, ok, so I laughed now that I think about it. Still, I think Draco has a good chance of redeeming himself or at least becoming more interesting. I really didn't mind his character until the end of OotP. Then his character seemed silly compared to what Harry had to deal with. Harry wasn't the least bit intimidated by him, but nor was he afraid of Snape then.



Weeny Owl - Apr 8, 2004 8:37 am (#380 of 1825)
When Sirius was sent to Azkaban his money wasn't touched by the Ministry, so I doubt if the Malfoy fortune would be either.

We don't know that the Wizarding World has lawyers. The only scenes we've been privy to with trials have had the accused sitting alone (or with each other in the case of Crouch, Jr. and the Lestranges). Harry did have Dumbledore represent him, but no one else has had representation that we've seen so far.

If the Malfoys did end up falling on hard times, I think it would make Draco want to avenge his father, and he'd end up being one of the nastiest specimens of Death Eaters imaginable. Even if they keep their money, Draco is going to want to do as much damage to Harry as possible.

Snape is the only reformed Death Eater we know about. There may be others or there may not. Snape and Draco's school experiences are different, what made Snape move to the side of good is still a mystery so comparisons can't really be made, and their childhoods appear to be different.

Something significant had to have happened to turn Snape away from Voldie, and if Draco is to turn away from the path he's on now, it will take something huge to give him a wake-up smack.

I don't see JKR having Draco be on the side of good if for no other reason than that she has to have bad guys from all walks of life, all ages, and all intelligence levels. Crabbe and Goyle types can't be the only Voldie supporters, and Draco isn't stupid.

It wouldn't surprise me if Draco became a full-fledged Death Eater during the summer.



DJ Evans - Apr 8, 2004 11:07 am (#381 of 1825)
I think as to how Draco will change & which direction, will depend some on what things are like at home--with his Mom, Narcissa!!! So in going with that theory, I believe we are going to see a much more "hateful" Draco--much more spiteful. I might be totally wrong, but Narcissa just doesn't come across as a very nice/good person. I've always wonder if she wasn't the force behind what all Lucius did and thought. You know the old saying "behind every good man is a good woman" or should I really switch the word good for "bad", yep that sounds & fits much better!!!

Later, Deb



Hem Hem - Apr 9, 2004 12:19 pm (#382 of 1825)
Wild Rose: Will we see more of Narcissa Malfoy now that Lucius is unavailale?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes, you will.

Considering Narcissa's role in Sirius' death in OotP (and she was really the primary character in assuring that the particular DE plan would work), I doubt her role will be anything other than vile in the next book.

And, come to think of it, I can't wait.



Loopy Lupin - Apr 9, 2004 12:26 pm (#383 of 1825)
I also note that the question is "now the Lucius is unavailable." Of course, that doesn't preclude the possibility that Lucius will get sprung from Azkaban quickly, the thrust of the question is that Narcissa is stepping up to make up for an absent Lucius. (And yes, she will probably be more vile than Lucius ever thought about being).



timrew - Apr 21, 2004 3:47 pm (#384 of 1825)
Who has made the vile, Ferret Boy, the thing that he is? His Mum or his Dad? I think we should be told!



haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 3:58 pm (#385 of 1825)
I vote for Narcissa - Lucius was too busy covering his tracks.



draco all the way - Apr 21, 2004 9:48 pm (#386 of 1825)
First of all what does 'vile' exactly mean? Are you saying that draco is evil and cruel like the death eaters, because I've always thought of him as just a nasty bully. Ever the optimist, thats me!



Tomoé - Apr 22, 2004 6:10 am (#387 of 1825)
First of all what does 'vile' exactly mean?

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French vil, from Latin vilis
1 a : morally despicable or abhorrent b : physically repulsive : FOUL
2 : of little worth or account : COMMON; also : MEAN
3 : tending to degrade
4 : disgustingly or utterly bad : OBNOXIOUS, CONTEMPTIBLE

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 6:10 am (#388 of 1825)
vile: of small worth or account; morally base; wicked; physically repulsive; disgusting--- Websters

I think, most commonly, vile applies to "disgusting," but its useful when you want to say that someone is more than just a little mean.

Edit: Arggh. I knew someone would beat me to it.



Dumbly-dorr - Apr 22, 2004 6:29 pm (#389 of 1825)
NO, no, no. When you look up 'vile' in the dictionary it has a picture of Dolores Jane Umbridge (smilie posted here).



Lars Smedberg - Apr 28, 2004 9:15 am (#390 of 1825)
I don't know if this has already been mentioned... but at least we now can guess why Draco has such a strange name ! His mother comes from the Black family, and all her close relatives seem to be named from either stars or constellations; her sisters Bellatrix (star) and Andromeda (constellation), her uncle Alphard (star) and her cousins Sirius and Regulus (stars). Draco's mother breaks the pattern, though; her name is Narcissa. Possibly it's some kind of a "compensation" that HER son was named Draco - from a constellation...!



Chris. - Apr 28, 2004 12:45 pm (#391 of 1825)
Draco actually is a constellation.

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Verbina - Apr 29, 2004 9:19 am (#392 of 1825)
Thing is though that the name of Narcissa goes back to the pattern of flower names for Harry relation. IE Petunia, Lily. Which is really quite odd if you think about it.



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 29, 2004 9:45 am (#393 of 1825)
My thoughts exactly Verbina. Makes you wonder if Narcissa is a full fledged Black.

What if Draco isn't as pure as he thinks he is. he-he.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 29, 2004 12:28 pm (#394 of 1825)
In the March chat this year, JKR stated, that despite of the flower theme, Narcissa has nothing to do with Lily and Petunia.



Verbina - Apr 29, 2004 9:16 pm (#395 of 1825)
Argh!!! Must have missed that in my copy. And I thought I went over it with a fine tooth comb!!!

:: tosses yet another theory into the dustbin ::

But...okay I need to research a bit on this but...Narcissa is the name of a flower yes, but the flower got it's name from a very vain woman in greek myth. Sirius is the name fo a star but...it is the name of the Dog Star, a star in the contsellation of the dog which is connected to the constellation of Orion. Now isn't there a myth of Orion? I really need to refresh my memory on greek myths. Andromeda is also a name from greek myth I believe. It may be worth while to check a few others in the family and see if that one worls out as well.



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 29, 2004 9:51 pm (#396 of 1825)
Andromeda was the princess of Ethiopia, daughter of Cepheus and Cassiopeia. Cassiopeia was a boastful woman, and foolishly bragged that she was more beautiful than Juno, the queen of the gods, and the Nereids. In order to avenge the insult to his nymphs, Neptune sent a sea monster to ravage the Ethiopian coast. (Some accounts state that the constellation Cetus represents the sea monster, but a more common view of Cetus is that he is a peaceful whale.)Andromeda was chained to a rock and Perseus saves her form being a sea monster snack. (the movie Clash of the Titans has Maggie Smith/Professor McGonagall in it.)

Sirius is a double star often reffered to a the Dog Star. Sirius is in the constellation of the Big Dog, or Canis Major. Because Sirius is the brightest star in the Big Dog, it's called the Dog Star. Canis major is found near Orion's feet. On Orion's shoulder is the star Bellatrix.

Alphard (uncle Alphard)is found on Hyrda. Hyrda is a very weird constellation. It is the largest constellation on the sky (with Virgo close behind), but is strung out from Libra to Canis Minor (which is near Canis Major) along the southern horizon over about 90 degrees.

Draco, known as the Dragon of the North, is a constellation of the serpent that snakes its way across the northern sky between Ursa Major and Ursa Minor and head points to the north star. I think he was placed in the sky by Hera. Rastaban (Bellatrix's husband) is a star found in Draco.

Regulus, meaning prince or heart of the lion,is the 25th brightest star in the sky.

I think that's it.



Verbina - Apr 29, 2004 9:59 pm (#397 of 1825)
Hmmm weird. Sort of a mix of constellations, stars and greek myth all balled up into one! At least that is how I am seeing it. The Hydra being a monster from greek myth. Though the stars and constellations seem to have predominance. It is just strange for everyone in the family to have some sort of name associated with stars yet Narcissa has one associated with a flower and a greek myth. Must dig out my myth books again and start hunting.



S.E. Jones - Apr 30, 2004 12:05 am (#398 of 1825)
Verbina: Narcissa is the name of a flower yes, but the flower got it's name from a very vain woman in greek myth.

Actually, Narcissus was male. Short version: He loved himself so much (because he was exceptionally handsome) that he stayed looking at his own reflection in a stream for so long that he died (probably of starvation). The manner in which he dies differs slightly depending on which version of the myth you get ahold of, though. There was also a nymph in the story named Echo who was in love with Narcissus.



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 30, 2004 5:37 am (#399 of 1825)
Oh I forgot, there is a constellation called Lupus with translate to the the wolf and if found near Scorpius.



Verbina - Apr 30, 2004 8:09 am (#400 of 1825)
Oops! Mixed up my myths there!! Thanks for catching that one SE Jones!

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 401 to 450

Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 6:46 am

Tomoé - Apr 30, 2004 8:26 pm (#401 of 1825)
'Come, Draco!' (UK CoS ch.4 p.44)

'Come, Dobby.' (UK CoS ch.18 p.248)

I re-read CoS lately and those two lines struck me. Does Lucius always treat Draco like a possession?



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 30, 2004 8:39 pm (#402 of 1825)
Everything is a possession to Lucius. It is the same for Draco.



Padfoot - May 5, 2004 3:48 pm (#403 of 1825)
Tim, I just read your thoughts on Draco from the Is Draco Evil thread. I have copied what you said and posted it here below. (If you haven't read the Narnia books, or don't want a spoiler, don't read the rest of the post) I never thought of this, but this is an interesting coincidence between the Narnia books and Draco's character. I like it.

timrew - Jun 20, 2003 1:44 pm (#202 of 202)
There is an interesting bit in John Granger's book, The Hidden Key To Harry Potter, where he compares Draco to Eustace Scrubb in The Voyage Of The Dawn Treader, one of the Narnia books.

In Dawn Treader, Eustace was also an obnoxious little git, who doesn't have a kind word to say about anyone or anything. And for his come-uppance, he gets turned into a dragon. Draco is Latin for dragon, get it? And JKR LOVES the Narnia books.

The only boy who shows any sympathy for Eustace's plight is his worst enemy, Edmund, who stays with Eustace the dragon on the beach and comforts him. So, when Eustace is restored to himself again he is a changed boy.

I can see something like this happening to Draco. Not him being turned into a dragon, but some kind of 'epiphany' that makes him see the light. I think that, in the end, Draco will come good. And possibly the same will happen with Dudley, IMHO......



Loopy Lupin - May 6, 2004 7:17 am (#404 of 1825)
I tend to agree with this idea. I wasn't on the forum in 2003, but I believe I have theorized (on this thread or the prediction thread) that Lucius may not waltz out of Azkaban so easily this time. That (and perhaps some other bad luck) could result in a downfall of the Malfoy family and its fortune. Perhaps Draco's epiphany will be seeing that, without his family's status or money, he really has no friends around him.



Weeny Owl - May 6, 2004 12:38 pm (#405 of 1825)
It's nice to think that someone can find redemption; after all, Snape did, but Snape and Draco aren't the same.

The current crop of Death Eaters were once Hogwarts students. I'm sure some of them could have turned away from Voldie, but as far as we know, Snape is the only one who actually did.

The current crop of students includes a few we know of whose fathers are Death Eaters. There are probably many others who have Death Eater parents.

With Draco, it isn't just a matter of choosing Voldie or Dumbledore to follow. He would have to change nearly his entire way of thinking, get over his problems with HRH, and realize that Harry isn't responsible for Lucius being in Azkaban.

I don't think Draco has it in him to overcome anything. He's a greedy, spoiled, shallow, self-important, arrogant snot who delights in making others suffer. Whether it's Ron, Harry, Hermione, or Neville, someone is always a target. Draco actually enjoys what he does, and I just can't see him changing. His sense of entitlement wouldn't allow him to see the situation in anyway that wouldn't benefit him.

JKR may choose to have Draco brought to the side of the good guys, but it would take something more than Lucius being in Azkaban to do it.

If Draco's family should lose their status and their money, I think that would drive him even faster into the Death Eater mind-set.



Madame Librarian - May 6, 2004 1:06 pm (#406 of 1825)
I have conflicting feelings about a changed Draco. I believe one of the important themes JKR has in this series is about 2nd chances. We've agreed in the past that this is repeated enough and backed up by other character developments. Another is the idea that no one is totally beyond redemption, although this is treated with subtlety and a little ambiguity (i.e., some of think she's hinted that Voldie is beyond saving).

So, as much as I enjoy calling Draco a git and envisioning a wonderful scene of his comeuppance and then some, I'm am uncomfortable with writing him off totally. Fortunately, whatever JKR makes of that character, I have confidence that she'll handle it extrememly well.\

Ciao. Barb



haymoni - May 6, 2004 1:12 pm (#407 of 1825)
JKR seems very surprised, and not pleasantly so, that people like Draco. She points out, however, that it probably has more to do with liking Tom Felton.

I don't know if she likes Draco enough to save him.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - May 7, 2004 5:44 am (#408 of 1825)
Draco has had to live his life trying to please is father. To me, Draco seems to be alot closer to his mom. (we know that every day Draco gets a package/letter from his mom sending him stuff) I think that if Draco goes to the "good" side, it will be because Vold has done something to his mother. With his father being in Azkaban, his mom may take over his father's role as a DE. Upon doing this, she may screw something up (seems that at least one, if not all the DE screw something up at one time or another.) and Vold will kill her.(or do the same thing that happened to Neville's parents) This to me, would be the only way he would turn against his father, and follow those who are against Vold.



mike miller - May 7, 2004 6:29 am (#409 of 1825)
I don't see Draco converting to the "good" side. Lucius is evil to the core and Narcissa is a Black threw and threw (I'm guessing here). We have yet to see Narcissa's true colors, but given that she is still on the Black family tapestry I would expect her follow Lucius' and Voldemort's lead.

Paying the price of our choices needs to play out regardless of the generation. This is a central theme of the books and I think it will carry on with Draco.



Weeny Owl - May 7, 2004 9:00 am (#410 of 1825)
I really don't see Draco as having to try to please Lucius. I see him truly caring about his father and wanting to be like him.

In the first book at Madam Malkin's, he tells Harry he's going to bully his father into buying him a racing broom. That could just be talk, but considering Draco's behavior, it seems that it is something Draco does with success quite often.

In the second book at Borgin and Burkes, Lucius tells Draco to touch nothing, and then Draco says that Lucius promised to buy him a present. After Lucius reminds Draco that the promised gift would be a racing broom, Draco starts whining about Harry. Lucius says that Draco has told him all of this at least half a dozen times. If that's the case, then Lucius shows remarkable patience in dealing with a demanding child.

He does seem a bit less patient about Draco not doing better at school than Hermione, but Draco did interrupt his conversation by demanding to know what the Hand of Glory was.

Draco seems quite comfortable with both of his parents at the Quidditch World Cup, and he seems amused when he later encounters HRH in the woods. He says that if his parents are Death Eaters, he certainly wouldn't tell them. He does know what's going on, though, with the riot.

In OotP we see Draco doing something he hasn't done before... he calls Lucius Dad. (Dad and the others will be getting out of Azkaban or whatever the exact quote is.)

As for Narcissa, the sweets that are sent to Draco could be from her, but the Malfoys might have another House-Elf since Dobby is gone that Narcissa has send the packages. In GoF Draco says she didn't want him in Durmstrang because it was too far away, but we have only his word that she actually said that.

Narcissa may be a loving mother who genuinely cares for her son's well-being and happiness, but at the same time, she's the wife of one Death Eater, the sister of another, and she was respected enough by Kreacher so that he went to her and told her what he could. Narcissa could very easily be a Death Eater herself. She may have directly told Voldie what Kreacher said. She might want her son to follow in the family footsteps in supporting Voldie. She might be worse than Lucius.

As for being closer to one parent, he seems to be equally close to both, but it's shown in different ways. Narcissa sends him sweets but Lucius sends him information.

In the scene in Umbridge's office when Hermione talks about the "weapon," we see Draco getting a rather predatory gleam in his eyes. He wants to go with them so he can see what this "weapon" is, and at that point even Umbridge doesn't like what she sees and won't let him go.

By the end of OotP, Draco is at least fifteen but could be sixteen. While it's possible to turn away from everything he's been taught, he doesn't seem to have the strength of character to be anything other than what we've already seen.



Choices - May 7, 2004 9:11 am (#411 of 1825)
How boring would these books be if you took away all of Harry's adversaries and had them become "good". The world is full of opposites and for every Harry, you must have a Draco to keep things in balance. I certainly hope Draco remains the evil little git that we have come to know and love.....to hate. LOL



tracie1976 - May 7, 2004 10:11 am (#412 of 1825)
Choices: full of opposites and for every Harry, you must have a Draco to keep things in balance

Well the way I see it, "good" guys turn bad too ie: Peter. Also "bad" guys turn good ie: Snape.

Which could mean Draco could go on the good side while Ron turns bad. We just don't know what conditions Draco will turn good if he does. For all we know, it could be his mom dying at the hands of Voldemort.



Devika - May 7, 2004 10:31 am (#413 of 1825)
The fact that Draco's character is relatively flimsy seems to me to indicate that he's actually a metaphor-and a very important one at that. First of all the books would be useless without a conflict among schoolboys. That way he fulfils his purpose very well. At the same time he serves as an agent of information for the views of the biased Dark wizards and Death Eaters. It is through him that we see the orthodox side of the wizarding world... mudbloods etc... things which Ron even coming from a wizard family cannot sufficiently portray. He is at the same time a window to the Death Eaters. He's also the link to Lucius Malfoy who I'm quite sure means much more to the story and the plot than just Draco's father. Draco is the window to Slytherin House too. So I feel that a character with so many purposes to fulfil will naturally lose its own character somewhere along the line. But while Draco's foundations may be relatively flimsy, I get a feeling that as himself he represents that part of the wizarding world which will refuse to change and will stick to their old prejudices. It is through him that we'll see that sad fate of such unfortunate people in this second war.



Czarina II - May 9, 2004 8:44 pm (#414 of 1825)
I second what Devika said. Well analysed! Draco has remained such a static character because it serves JKR's overall plot so far; she might choose to change this later.



Loopy Lupin - May 10, 2004 8:23 am (#415 of 1825)
Choices-- I don't think it would be boring for Draco to change. (He's just one adversary and I don't think we have worry about many of the others-- except Pettigrew maybe-- having any changes of heart.)I think boring would be for him to remain the same. As was discussed a few posts back, Draco is not quite the formidable opponent for Harry that he perhaps once was. In some ways, he's even a little pathetic. I mean after taking on LV and numerous Death Eaters on multiple occassions, Draco just isn't a match for Harry anymore, if he ever was.

Devika-- I agree that conflict between schoolboys was (and very much still is) a necessary aspect of the first couple of books. However, I think we're at a point where the books have outgrown that conflict and its just not that important anymore. Draco may very well remain flimsy and we may very well watch him represent the fates of those parts of the WW which refuse to change. I just can't help but feel that he will either become more central to the books by "seeing the error of his ways" or that he will fade from view entirely such as by, as some have suggested, leaving Hogwarts and transferring to Durmstrang.



virgoddess1313 - May 18, 2004 6:14 am (#416 of 1825)
The possibility remains, though (and as much as I don't think I like it), that Draco may not change, at all. The conflict between Harry and Draco may be a bit of "normalcy" (or as normal as Harry Potter's life can possibly be) in his otherwise chaotic life. The world may crash down around him, but he can always count on the animosity between he and Draco.



Prefect Marcus - May 18, 2004 8:58 am (#417 of 1825)
My point all along is that Draco HAS to change. Otherwise he will rapidly become irrelavent. It's happening already.

Remember the, "Oh I'm scared now. I supposed Lord Voldemort was just a warm up for you," at the end of OoP.

Then there is the small matter of his henchmen only consist of Crabbe and Goyle. Harry has the whole of DA to back him up.

Yes, Draco must change or he will be left in the dust. But then, maybe that is what Rowling wants. Harry is rapidly maturing. Part of growing up is leaving school-yard bullies behind. Not that bullies don't exist in adult life. They do. But most adults view them as more pathetic than any real threat.



Weeny Owl - May 18, 2004 9:28 am (#418 of 1825)
I agree, Marcus, that Draco is pathetic, but bullies can do damage, especially when they're with their henchmen.

The Draco we've seen so far is a vain, shallow, spoiled brat who is way too indulged.

The Draco in book six is one whose father is now a known Death Eater, one who bullied other students through the Inquisitorial Squad, and one who wants to kill Harry for Lucius being in Azkaban.

While Draco hasn't liked Harry since Harry rejected Draco's offer of friendship, he now hates Harry.

I think he'll still be a vain and shallow person, but with the added factor of revenge, he may be a real danger to the six who were in the Department of Mysteries.

I really can't see him leaving Hogwarts or "seeing the error of his ways." He and Narcissa are going to want to get back at the people they feel are responsible for Lucius being in prison, and they can't do that if they're not around those people.

We saw the scene between Draco, his buddies, and Harry, we saw them going after Harry on the train, but while Harry may not consider them a threat, what about the other five from the DoM battle? If they can't get to Harry himself, they might try for the members of that group they consider more vulnerable.



Verbina - May 18, 2004 9:34 am (#419 of 1825)
And we all know that Draco has previously targeted Neville. I could see Draco targeting Neville and harry getting involved because of his friendship to Neville.



Prefect Marcus - May 18, 2004 9:56 am (#420 of 1825)
Edited by May 18, 2004 9:58 am
I don't think Draco will try to kill Harry. There is a big difference between threatening to kill someone, and actually doing it.

I.S. is history. If nothing else, those students who took an active part in it are now pariahs. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this even happened within Slytherin house. The I.S. members were basically goons. They weren't particularly skilled. They weren't particularly powerful magic-wise. They didn't study extra lessons. They just bullied and terrorized on Umbridge's authority. Umbridge is now gone. What do they have left? Nothing but the consequences of their actions.

The DA, on the other hand, worked, studied, and practiced hard. Draco is at least a full year behind the weakest of them. I really don't see Draco being foolish enough to try to get any of them. If he did, the consequences to him would be nasty. He, Goyle, and Crabbe could not stand up to the combined DA.

I agree. Draco will not leave Hogwarts, and he won't see the error of his ways. All things point to a Slytherin reforming before the series is out, but I doubt it will be Malfoy. He will remain a malevolent soul looking for a chance to hurt Harry. Perhaps he will be the one to deliver Harry to Voldemort in the final book.



Weeny Owl - May 18, 2004 10:48 am (#421 of 1825)
"Perhaps he will be the one to deliver Harry to Voldemort in the final book."

ACK, Marcus, that's dastardly. Of course, now that you mention it, it's certainly feasible.

He is malevolent, isn't he?

Even with the Inquisitorial Squad gone, I worry for the other five in that battle.



Choices - May 18, 2004 10:50 am (#422 of 1825)
Draco is a spoiled little git who has been under his father's thumb for his whole life. Now that Lucius is in Azkaban and Draco is free of his overbearing presence in his life (however briefly), I can see Draco coming into his own somewhat and carrying on the evil traditions of his father/family. He may even strive to be worse than his father - or better - however you want to look at it. I don't think Draco is going to change for the better - if anything, I think he will become more of a threat.



Loopy Lupin - May 18, 2004 10:57 am (#423 of 1825)
Perhaps he will be the one to deliver Harry to Voldemort in the final book.

I like that Marcus. I think it would be even more dastardly if Draco delivers Harry after seeming to change his ways. That would be a wickedly delicious twist, but a lot of effort would have to be put into the supposed "change" before anyone would believe that Draco could ever be trusted.



Weeny Owl - May 18, 2004 11:11 am (#424 of 1825)
That's entirely possible, Loopy, because the Sorting Hat said Slytherins will use any means to achieve their ends.

I could see Draco convincing people he had changed only to end up delivering Harry to Voldemort.



DJ Evans - May 18, 2004 11:35 am (#425 of 1825)
Wonder if Draco will ever "up" his status more (with his Dad and his friends) by starting his "own" secret DA (Draco's Army)? He'd have enough goon's to be a part of it, for sure.

Later days, Deb



Prefect Marcus - May 18, 2004 12:13 pm (#426 of 1825)
DJEvans - Wonder if Draco will ever "up" his status more (with his Dad and his friends) by starting his "own" secret DA (Draco's Army)? He'd have enough goon's to be a part of it, for sure.

I had thought of that, but discounted it. I doubt Draco could hold their interest for long. Do you really think they could operate at Hogwarts and not have Dumbledore discover them? It was a minor miracle that the marauders become animagi under his nose, and they were only four. I don't see Draco being capable of anything like the D.A. for any sustained period.

Marcus



Loopy Lupin - May 18, 2004 12:20 pm (#427 of 1825)
Who's to say that Draco and what became the Inquisitorial Squad weren't doing something like that all along (or at some point) in OoP? Fudge and Umbridge wouldn't have had any objection to a group they thought were learning spells, etc., to aid the Ministry, would they? Of course, Marcus has a point in that Draco has neither the charisma nor the reputation to hold the interest of any group of people for long.

As to doing things under DD's nose, there was at least some amount of time in OoP when DD was not at Hogwarts. Continuing "Draco's Army" in Book 6 would be much more difficult to be sure.



Prefect Marcus - May 18, 2004 12:32 pm (#428 of 1825)
To do what the D.A. did requires inititive, discipline, and sacrifice. I don't see thugs and goons as having a whole lot of any of these. And the majority of the I.S. were just that, thugs and goons.



Loopy Lupin - May 18, 2004 1:34 pm (#429 of 1825)
No argument with the thugs and goons assessment. But, the D.A. was a subversive group, acting against all authority and at great personal risk. A group sanctioned by the Ministry or Umbridge wouldn't have had those same concerns. That's really more what I had in mind, as opposed to a secret organization that took guts to start.



S.E. Jones - May 18, 2004 3:56 pm (#430 of 1825)
Of course, Marcus has a point in that Draco has neither the charisma nor the reputation to hold the interest of any group of people for long.

What about someone who is far more clever than Draco, say Theodore Nott? He may not be in Draco's gang but he may have been persuaded by the fact that their fathers were also working together (i.e. he wanted to do something to help the cause too) to take on the role of a leader in such a group....



Prefect Marcus - May 18, 2004 5:16 pm (#431 of 1825)
Sarah,

I think your idea about another person leading the anti-DA has possiblities. I just don't think such a group could survive in a Hogwarts fully controlled by Dumbledore. Does anybody think that Dumbledore was not aware of the DA meetings? I think not.

Now there may be some comspiracy or the other by the remnants of the IS, but I doubt there will be anything sustained.

Besides, there has to be some Slytherins who are horrified at Voldemort's return, and who will report any suspicious activity to Dumbledore, or at least McGonagall. We have to start seeing some good ones soon. Otherwise one of the main themes of the whole book will end up being hollow.



DJ Evans - May 18, 2004 5:48 pm (#432 of 1825)
But I can see the little git, Draco, hearing about Harry's D.A. group--sits and ponders on it for a time and decides to start his own group. Except not so much as to fight/battle any of the OotP really, but to get Harry. Then as some of you have mentioned, Draco's group most likely wouldn't last very long either from Draco's bad leadership or because DD is back now. This is where I can maybe see LV getting his hand into the picture. His means to get to Harry maybe? So either he has one of his DE's get the group meet outside of Hogwarts to rally and learn more of the Dark Arts? Maybe even let Draco think he is the brains behind it all? hee hee

It's just one of those "quirky" thoughts/ideas that came to my mind and not really thought out. I'm sure there are pro's and con's to it all, but I still thought it was an interesting "new" idea there to bat around.

Later days, Deb



Tomoé - May 18, 2004 6:58 pm (#433 of 1825)
While Theodore is indeed more clever than Draco, I don't think he's a leader. JKR describe him as a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs. It sounds like the kind of quiet guy you don't notice and will become the first you forget after graduation.

Maybe someone else then. Pansy?



S.E. Jones - May 18, 2004 7:59 pm (#434 of 1825)
JKR describe him as a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs.

Thing is, without knowing Harry personally, that description fit Harry until recently. We only know Harry as more of a leader because of his dynamic within the Trio (and we don't know Nott personally) and because of the DA.



LyndaLou - May 19, 2004 9:26 am (#435 of 1825)
Here is something I have been wondering a bit. With Lucius in now in prison will Snape perhaps play the part of father figure toward Draco? It seems possible he might as he & Lucius have some sort of relationship; and if he does what effect would this have on Draco?



Loopy Lupin - May 19, 2004 11:19 am (#436 of 1825)
I think its certain that Snape and Lucius have a relationship. Snape is considered Lucius's "lap dog" by Sirius and Umbridge remarks that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape. I have wondered myself (on this thread I think several posts back) what the relationship between Snape and Draco is. Snape hates Harry to be sure notwithstanding the fact that Snape is (presumably) on the good side now. I believe that Snape would hope that there would be some Slytherins who could sort of follow in his footsteps, that is to remain true to Slytherin ideals but to stand against LV.



Tomoé - May 21, 2004 10:05 am (#437 of 1825)
In response to Sarah's post (#434), the difference between Harry and Theo is that Nott prefer to be alone.

On the one hand, Harry was forced to be a loner by his cousin, he still don't usually do the first step (Cho is the only exception), but he don't mind company.

On the other hand, Theodore had the opportunity to befriend Malfoy, they are talking together in the cut scene, they are reading the quibble interview together, Draco consider him as his equal and I'm sure Harry is not the only one Draco asked to be his friend.

Back to Draco's topic, I wonder what Draco will do if both Crabbe and Goyle are too thick to even think to try to take their NEWT. What Draco will do if he lost he two best buddy?



Mare - May 23, 2004 1:11 pm (#438 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would mind losing either Crabbe or Goyle. In his eyes they are just there for his convenience and maybe protection. If there would be other slytherins in his NEWTS that are ready to listen to him and laugh at his jokes about Harry, Draco will be fine.
He would stress, however when there would be no Slytherins, that's why I think that Draco will make sure to choose the courses which have some amount of silver and green in them.



Dumbledore - May 23, 2004 3:25 pm (#439 of 1825)
I agree with you Mare. Most of Draco's power comes from the fact that he is looked up to, admired, and respected by his fellow Slytherins to the point where they become his cronies. Without all of the Slytherins egging Draco's antics on, where would he be?



Prefect Marcus - May 23, 2004 3:33 pm (#440 of 1825)
Without all of the Slytherins egging Draco's antics on, where would he be?

Extremely jealous of Harry Potter, where else?



Dumbledore - May 23, 2004 3:47 pm (#441 of 1825)
Prefect Marcus: Extremely jealous of Harry Potter, where else?

I agree, but I think his jealousy wouldn't be expressed in such a cruel and obvious way if he didn't have a gang of Slytherins to back him up.



Prefect Marcus - May 23, 2004 9:13 pm (#442 of 1825)
Edited by May 23, 2004 9:14 pm
If nobody joined in with Draco's Harry baiting, Draco would soon stop trying. However, we've seen that that is not the case. Draco's barbs seldom have any trouble finding an appreciative audience. And they aren't all Slytherins, either. It is true that Slytherins are the most willing to back Draco up, but Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws aren't entirely innocent either.

I would be willing to say that Book 6 is going to be the first year where the majority of students will support Harry over Draco. This will most certainly cause some change in tactics by Malfoy. We will have to wait to see what it is.



ex-FAHgeek - May 25, 2004 1:28 pm (#443 of 1825)
Edited by May 25, 2004 1:36 pm
I don't think stupidity is so much Draco's biggest flaw as the fact that he's crude.

While it may be "movie contamination," one of my favorite exchanges in CoS was when Draco confronts Harry about causing a scene in the bookstore and Lucius responds with "Now now, Draco... play nicely" and then pushes him out of the way with his walking stick. There's a gorgeous subtext there in which I could just hear Lucius saying "Watch the master at work..." He's a master manipulator and Draco is... not.

While Lucius and Arthur do come to blows, I think it shows that while Draco has adopted the doctrine, he hasn't learned the finesse that comes with it. I've really enjoyed Lucius Malfoy (and my enjoyment was thoroughly enhanced by the films) because even though he's a villain, he has class. Draco knows the status, but not how to wield it properly. He continually resorts to not-so-sneaky sneak attacks on HRHN, and I can't imagine Lucius lowering himself to pretending to faint to mock Arthur, but Draco doesn't seem to have a problem making a fool of himself in order to harrass those he considers to be beneath him.

Someone, many posts back, mentioned that the Malfoys represent the problems with the class system in Britain. I think that, to be more specific, Draco represents is someone who can't hold the successes of the old class system of the past - he lacks the tact, taste, and etiquette that once made such distinctions desireable.

Characters like Lucis Malfoy, Barty Crouch Sr., and Gran Longbottom may not be loved by all in the Wizarding World, but they have enough dignity to combine status with some type of good appearances. Draco grasps at the old status, but tries to pound it through others' faces rather than setting a fine-tuned, impressive example. Take Fleur Delacour as an alternate example - she was openly critical of Hogwarts and quickly recognized as arrogant, but even so, she still impressed those around her and got down to business to show her strengths (and admit when she failed) rather than brag about her own superiority before getting humiliated. Draco forgets that one must combine social class with personal class for it to be worth anything.



Prefect Marcus - May 25, 2004 7:31 pm (#444 of 1825)
Nicely put, ex-FAHgeek.



S.E. Jones - May 25, 2004 7:42 pm (#445 of 1825)
Bravo, ex-FAHgeek, bravo!



Dumbly-dorr - May 26, 2004 12:05 am (#446 of 1825)
Well said, ex-FAHgeek!



Loopy Lupin - May 26, 2004 6:09 am (#447 of 1825)
Yes, very nice.



draco all the way - May 31, 2004 8:58 am (#448 of 1825)
We just love to hate Malfoy don't we? Perhaps, J.K.R put him in for precisely that reason and for none other.



Tomoé - Jun 2, 2004 4:49 am (#449 of 1825)
If the Nimbus series has a fault, it's a slight list to the tail-end - you often find they develop a drag after a few years. -> Madam Hooch, UK PoA, ch.13, p.188

Does that mean Malfoy's nimbuses 2001 will eventually cause the Slytherins defeat? ^_^



Liz - Jun 2, 2004 12:53 pm (#450 of 1825)
I hope so.

Beth

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 451 to 500

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Dumbledore - Jun 2, 2004 5:00 pm (#451 of 1825)
Well, I think that the Nimbus 2001's will at some point begin to drag just from the "wear-and-tear" of use.



Liz - Jun 2, 2004 5:36 pm (#452 of 1825)
Yeah, you hear that "wear-and-tear."

Beth



Catherine - Jun 3, 2004 5:59 am (#453 of 1825)
I've been away, so I wanted to add my support to ex-FAHgeek's post (#443 of 452), so please forgive me for turning the discussion back in that direction.

Your discussion here made me think of Snape's admonition to Harry, about Harry lacking subtlety. Seems like Draco could use a reminder about that as well. He's still a bit obvious, even in OoP.

Draco shows his glee in taking points from Harry and friends, and can't hide his greed when Umbridge is questioning Hermione about the supposed "weapon" in the Forbidden Forest.

A little subtlety would turn Draco into a more sinister character.



draco all the way - Jun 3, 2004 7:50 am (#454 of 1825)
He's a kid. He'll learn in time.

And why, you ask, do I defend him? Look at the name.



justme - Jun 15, 2004 8:01 am (#455 of 1825)
Edited by Jun 15, 2004 8:02 am
I remember some previous posts stating that Draco would probably never change from how he was raised. I was curious, as I know some people that were raised with similar beliefs, one group of people is better that another, and after they matured, they realized that the world was not exactly as their parents had led them to believe.



Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 10:04 am (#456 of 1825)
I think the key to what you've said, justme, is, "after they matured."

Draco's world (and that of Hogwarts in general) is very much isolated. Before he was eleven, he was taught by his parents to believe certain things. When he got to Hogwarts, he was surrounded by many people who had similar beliefs.

Part of the problem at Hogwarts is that students are isolated into houses, and that's a concern of the Sorting Hat. There isn't a great deal of interaction, and what little there is is usually in a classroom. Not always, granted, but most of the time. Even at meals, students sit with their own houses.

With Lucius being a Death Eater, it's highly unlikely that Draco has had any positive interaction with anyone whose beliefs are different. He hangs around with sons of other Death Eaters. When would he, or anyone else, have a chance to calmly listen to people whose principles are different? Draco doesn't see his father as being a bad guy or doing anything wrong. He wasn't even the slightest bit upset when Cedric Diggory was killed.

Unless there's some life-altering incident that can touch him in his very soul, I don't see him being anything other than what he already is, if not something much worse.



Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 10:19 am (#457 of 1825)
Draco will likely never change from what he is, a guy who talk too much, who try to befriend with the popular people, who will prefer be hated than ignored, who loose his confident when he loose control.

The part about the importance of magic blood is just what his family taught him, it's not part of his deeper nature. So I agree with you, justme, he could grow out of the magical racism, but I doubt he will change from his inner nature.



Lady Nagini - Jun 15, 2004 1:02 pm (#458 of 1825)
Draco has been indoctrinated and brainwashed from his birth, plain and simple. It's extremely hard to overcome that, especially if you are continually in an environment that is promoting these values. Maybe a psychologist could help me out here...?



justme - Jun 15, 2004 4:48 pm (#459 of 1825)
Weeny Owl,

you are right, I just think that leaving him as he is, just sort makes him a minor character. Everyone else in the stories has changed, but he still seems to be just a blowhard, who relies on his daddy to get him out of trouble.

I know a few people like that, as well



S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 1:22 am (#460 of 1825)
True, justme; however, we've finally seen something that might make him change (that is change as in from a minor character back to a major character again) - his dad's imprisonment. He now has a real reason to actually hate Harry. Not begrudge him a quidditch match or be envious of his fame or anything like that but actually hate him. With his father in prison, his world could easily be thrown upside-down. He no longer has daddy there to bail him out if he's in trouble, his family name (which he relies so much on for the respect that he craves) has been severely tainted (I doubt Lucius can cry "Imperius" this time and get people to believe it), his social ranking in the Wizarding world (which is what he always uses as clout in just about any given situation) is probably dropping like a stone off a bridge, and to top it all off, he's a kid who's lost his dad to prison. That's not easy to deal with, whether the guy deserved it or not. Notice the last time Draco refers to Lucius, he says "dad" instead of the usual "my father" that he had been using. I think that's the first time we've ever seen him show that much familiarity with his father....

I think Draco's character will be changing, most definately; just not for the better.....



Weeny Owl - Jun 16, 2004 9:30 am (#461 of 1825)
You make good points, Sarah, and I think that's how JKR is going to portray Draco in the next book.

It will show even more of Draco's character that we saw in the second book when he was whining to Lucius about Harry and Hermione. He can't accept responsibility for anything, even his grades, and he sees Lucius as being a victim instead of an aggressor.

Poor innocent Dad was sent to Azkaban by the vile Harry Potter. It's all Harry's fault, at least to Draco. He won't stop and think that if Lucius hadn't been in the Department of Mysteries hexing people and trying to steal a Prophecy for Voldie that none of it would have happened. He certainly won't see that Harry doesn't exactly have the power to send anyone to Azkaban.

Draco has had everything handed to him on a silver platter his whole life because of the Malfoy money and influence, and while the money may still be there (after all, Sirius kept his money), Lucius won't be there to push people around for Draco.



StareyedSlytherin - Jun 19, 2004 12:07 am (#462 of 1825)
This is an interesting discussion. I personally probably will always hope that Draco changes for the better in the long run, but one thing's for sure.. he's standing at a crossroads in his life now and whether he decides to grow up or get even, his character will almost certainly have to be developed further in future books. As important a character as he seemed to be in the beginning, and concidering what happened at the end of book 5, I really don't think that JKR is just going to let him slip into the background.



Lord Montemort - Jul3, 2004 11:10 pm (#463 of 1825)
I think Draco (and his two goons) may see their ,temporarily, exciled fathers as an oppurtunity to prove themselves.

Draco could start sending information home to *mommy* about what's happening at Hogwarts. I don't think Voldemort had this the last time. Wasn't Hogwarts pretty much the last bastion for the good guys?

Also Dumbledore won't chamfer mail like Umbridge. Snape will of course, but it puts Snape in a bind, if key information isn't passed and Draco or his mom asks about each others letters. For example "Mom did you read that thing about the thing in my last letter?" Mom 'Nope" Then a collective "Hmmm, somethings going on here."

Or his dad could put the pressure on him to do it. Either way it could be Draco's chance to run with big boys and attain his own notoriety. Even if he doesn't want to do it, well, he could be disowned at best or go through much, much worse.



Magika - Jul13, 2004 3:31 pm (#464 of 1825)
Weeny Owl - May 18, 2004 9:28 am (#418 of 463)

"We saw the scene between Draco, his buddies, and Harry, we saw them going after Harry on the train, but while Harry may not consider them a threat, what about the other five from the DoM battle? If they can't get to Harry himself, they might try for the members of that group they consider more vulnerable."

As I read this, it hit me. This would be the perfect way for Draco to get revenge on Harry. I just read a book written by Jan Guillou, 'Evil'. It's about a boy named Erik who's sent to a boarding school, where the elder students are allowed to taunt the younger ones (Inquitorial Squad), by both physical and psychological terror. Well, Erik is a strong person, and refuse to let himself be controlled by the elder students. What does the elder students do? Yeah, they attack Erik's weaker and more vulnerable friends.

It's the most cowardly, spineless revenge, but as I see it, it would fit Draco perfectly.

And another thing I've been wondering about... Snape has gone from the bad, to the good side. He's under Dumbledore's orders. Draco is on the opposite side; his father is a well-known DE, as Snape know perfectly well. So how come Draco is Snape's favorite? Wouldn't it be wise for him to keep away from the DE's and their buddies? I see it a little like post-alcoholism:

Shouldn't Snape, as an ex-Death Eater, keep away from the Death Eaters, in the same way as an ex-alcoholic should keep away from alcohol?

-Si-



zelmia - Jul13, 2004 8:00 pm (#465 of 1825)
Well we don't really know why Draco is Snape's favourite. Maybe Draco reminds Snape of himself. There are a number of reasons that are quite apart from Snape's relationship with the Death Eaters that might account for Snape's affinity for Draco.



Lars Smedberg - Jul14, 2004 2:43 am (#466 of 1825)
I have also thought much over this; how comes that Snape favoures Draco and his friends ? And, which I think is even more important; why does the Malfoys like Snape ? Snape was "outed" as a renegade Death Eater during Karkaroff's trial; a public trial, and at least by that time both Lucius and other D.E:s must have understood that Snape was a traitor (from THEIR point of view). Still, Snape likes Malfoy and his gang, and the Malfoys seem to like Snape. Is it just "once a Slytherin, always a Slytherin" ? Maybe Lucius thinks that the "evil side" will be able to use Snape in some way ? Who knows - but it still is strange !



Sir Tornado - Jul14, 2004 3:34 am (#467 of 1825)
Snape shows favouratism to Malfoy because he wants the Slytherins to belive he sympathises with Lord Voldemort.



--» pyro «-- - Jul14, 2004 11:51 am (#468 of 1825)
Draco has been one of my favorite characters since I first read Philosopher's Stone - not since seeing Tom Felton (although he makes a great Draco: perfect sneer!). He's a realistic bully that you love to hate. Now that Lucius is in Azkaban, I think Draco will take more control of his life and step out of his father's shadow. Narcissa's influence will come into play, whether it's the same as Lucius or different in any way. Draco thought the "power" his father had over other wizards was great: they feared him, respected him, and basically did what he ordered. Now Draco can see where that got him, and even though the Dementors are gone and the Death Eaters can escape, I think the respect he has for his father slipped a couple notches. He will always view him differently, and though there will never be a halo over Draco's head I think he will come to grips with reality and grow up. There is still the level of immaturity when he is nasty to Harry, Ron, and Hermione, but that too may fade. As Peter Parker said to Harry Osbourne in Spider-man2: "There are bigger things going on here than you and me." I think that applies to the Golden Trio and Draco, and though I don't think Draco will ever completely side with him, I don't think he'll completely side with Lucius and Voldemort either.

Snape showing favoritism toward him, I think, is subtley trying to "save" him from the fate like likely awaits him. He probably doesn't want Draco to make the same mistake that he did in becoming a Death Eater and having the blood of many innocents on his hands. And, as we saw in Order of the Phoenix, Snape did not have a happy childhood (I can't remember exactly what happened, but it wasn't cheerful) and so he sort of built a barrier around himself and set his own rules. Draco's "wall" has been built by his parents, mainly his father, and now the wall is starting to crumble. Snape's wall crumbled after he joined the Death Eaters. Plus the fact that they have a favorite sport in common: Trio Torture. Draco likes the fact that Snape despises Harry, Ron and Hermione.

All in all, Draco is a favorite character of mine, more in canon than fanon, and I don't see how you can call a fifteen-year-old who's lived in his father's world "evil". I'm willing to give him another chance or two.



Leila 2X4B - Jul14, 2004 12:06 pm (#469 of 1825)
If anything, I think the problems with Draco's dad will cement how he feels, if not make it stronger. People do not take well to a hit a their dignity, and in response they often reinforce and increase the behavior in order to regain said dignity. Draco will be bigger and badder coming up, trust me.



Sir Tornado - Jul14, 2004 10:20 pm (#470 of 1825)
Pyro, interesting thoughts. Draco won't side with either parites? Hmm, that would be just like Snape... spy for the Order or the DA but still hating Harry. I like the idea.



therealscabbers - Jul15, 2004 8:30 am (#471 of 1825)
I agree that it is possible that Snape favours Draco as he sees himself - though I also agree that given his role now having gone seemingly "back to the dark side" this favoritism would have stood him in good stead - picture the scene, Voldie knows, as do the other DE's, that Snape was a spy for DD, then shortly after Voldie regains his body Snape turns up claiming he was never really a spy or whatever his excuse was, Voldie is not going to go "well ok then snivilus back you come into the fold" but if the DE he most respects - Malfoy, speaks up for him and says that he has given the impression of regretting his involvement with DD and has proven this too him through the involvement and recomendation (not literal but Draco saying things like Snape really hates DD and Potter) from his son could help Snape back into the DE ring without being AK'd as Voldie would normally a spy.

thus it has been in Snapes best interest to keep the Malfoy's on side



Sir Tornado - Jul15, 2004 12:55 pm (#472 of 1825)
Exactly realscabbers.



zelmia - Jul15, 2004 1:17 pm (#473 of 1825)
One thing that I always predicted would happen would be that Draco would inadvertently tip off the Order to Voldemort's plans and Lucius would actually be prepared to hand Draco over to the Death Eaters, if not get rid of Draco himself.
Draco has always been spouting his mouth off about his father, etc. and in the last pages of OP, he showed no signs of abstaining from that behaviour. On the contrary, he seemed positively empowered by the fact that he no longer had to "keep his head down" about his father's association with Voldemort.
What I think is that Draco still hasn't learned his lesson about when and what to keep quiet about ("You'll be next, Mudbloods!") with regard to Lucius and the other Death Eaters' plans. Of course, Lucius hasn't really learned not to say anything important to or in front of Draco so... Anyway, I think this will eventually mean that Draco will be hunted by his own father and that he will turn to Dumbledore for refuge.



therealscabbers - Jul16, 2004 2:13 am (#474 of 1825)
thanks Tornedo! Zelmia - maybe Harry will come to his rescue (like James and Snape) Harry will see Lucius try and either torture/kill Draco and will stop him with the old fav "expellaramus"? and then Draco will be taken in by the weasleys! and eat a large helping of humble pie!!



Magika - Jul18, 2004 5:10 am (#475 of 1825)
Well, Sleeping Beauty, I agree with you. I believe Draco will be bigger and badder in the following books. I think he will try to avenge his father by making even more trouble for Harry. I think he will find new, crueler ways to do this.

And, therealscabbers, as in post 474, your theory is interesting! Imagine if Harry saved Draco's life in one way - Draco would be in a dilemma. He would owe Harry one, but still have his father and Voldemort exspecting him to give Harry up to Voldemort when time's ready. But I don't really think Lucius will kill Draco, nor torture him... Somehow, if he gets into that situation, I believe he will sneak out of it. After all, he's good at 'buying' himself out of uncomfortable situations...

-Si-



zelmia - Jul18, 2004 10:48 am (#476 of 1825)
Well, that's the real trick, isn't it? True, Draco can 'buy his way out' of situations within the context of being a child. But what he uses to do that is his father's power and influence, etc. Well that's not really an option anymore so I'm suggesting that Draco, perhaps still operating under the 'old regime' idea, will finally get himself into a situation with his dad that he can't manipulate. And as Jason Issacs points out, "Lucius is a thoroughly dark character." Draco hasn't grown at all in any of the previous 5 books so I can't imagine he will suddenly have a brain wave and learn that the Death Eaters isn't just a funny little nick-name.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul18, 2004 1:58 pm (#477 of 1825)
I agree with Zelmia. In fact, I actually am guessing that Draco might end up in Azkaban (temprorarily) with his dad & company.



Magika - Jul18, 2004 3:05 pm (#478 of 1825)
Haha! Wouldn't that be hilarious!

Well, when I come to think about it, that's not unlikely...

Hmm....

-Si-



Sir Tornado - Jul18, 2004 8:21 pm (#479 of 1825)
I agree with Luke.



therealscabbers - Jul19, 2004 1:51 am (#480 of 1825)
Magika DO you really think you can "buy" your way out of trouble with Voldemort? Surely it will be a case of do or die? so if Voldie orders Lucius to kill/torture draco or die himself would he spare his own son and sacrifice himself? interesting question!! just how dark is Lucius?



Sir Tornado - Jul19, 2004 2:49 am (#481 of 1825)
Lucius won't spare his son. If he does, Voldemort would kill him and ask some other DE to kill/torture Draco. Lucius is clever enough to understand this.



haymoni - Jul19, 2004 5:44 am (#482 of 1825)
Again - Voldy needs bodies!

I think he would use Draco and the other Nibblers. He wouldn't care, as the Order does, if they were "of age".

He would use Draco right now - that is if Narcissa was able to sort out the Slugs that were left oozing on the train.



Magika - Jul19, 2004 6:32 am (#483 of 1825)
Well, no, therealscabbers, I don't really believe that anyone could buy themselves out of trouble with Voldemort... Somehow, I think Lucius has already used his 'second chance', if the DE's get something like that. He was, after all 'one of the first to go back to the 'good' side after the downfall of Voldemort'.

Lucius would probably give up his son to Voldemort. But the question is really, what would this do to the plot? I don't think Jo will kill Draco in such a way.

-Si-



Chris. - Jul19, 2004 6:42 am (#484 of 1825)
I think it will be the other way about, Draco will kill his father, Lucius.



Paulus Maximus - Jul19, 2004 7:35 am (#485 of 1825)
"that is if Narcissa was able to sort out the Slugs that were left oozing on the train."

Didn't Harry do something similar to Malfoy at the end of their fourth year? Or was it Lucius who was responsible for "sorting out" Draco at the end of book 4?



virgoddess1313 - Jul19, 2004 7:42 am (#486 of 1825)
I believe there is definately bound to be some betrayl going on in that family before all is said and done. We've seen quite a bit of the fasmily dynamics of the Malfoys... compared to other characters, like Hermione for instance. I don't see any real affection between father and son with Lucius and Draco. Even when Lucius was a school govenor and was always getting Draco his way, it seems to me like more of a power thing than anything. I think either one of them would betray the other in a second for a bit of power.

Although, I do have to agree with Magika, I don't think one killing the other would do much for the plot. If one dies, I don't believe it would be at the hand of the other. Betrayl doesn't always mean murder, or even allowing the death of another, it could be any number of things.



haymoni - Jul19, 2004 7:44 am (#487 of 1825)
Yes - the ride home doesn't appear very safe for Draco, does it?

In Book 4 it was the combo of Jelly-Legs and something else that caused the Nibblers to break out in tentacles which came from Harry, Hermione, Ron, Fred & George all jinxing them at once.

In Book 5 it was the DA members that were in a compartment near Harry that did so many curses that they became slugs.

Can you hear Narcissa? "Oh, Draco! Not again!"



therealscabbers - Jul19, 2004 9:06 am (#488 of 1825)
hehe Haymoni!! maybe dear nacrissa will get Draco from Hogwarts herself at the end of year 6 just to save the hassle of cleaning him up!!

As for Magika and Virgoddess, I also agree that it prob wont come to them killing each other though if Draco does betray the DE's and either decideds to "hand in his notice" as a death nibbler like Sirius brother did then somone will have to kill him! but of course since he is a bit of a peter Pettigrew and likes to be under the protection of people with power he would prob run to DD anyway and come under the protection of the order - as we know DD is all up for second chances



virgoddess1313 - Jul19, 2004 9:13 am (#489 of 1825)
Sort of a wizard's witness protection program.. hehe. Makes sense though, considering we need to see some change in Draco before he becomes really annoying and repetitive.



Weeny Owl - Jul19, 2004 9:26 am (#490 of 1825)
I think there is a great deal of love and affection between Lucius and Draco, and I think if Draco were to switch sides that it would be because Voldie killed Lucius or Narcissa. I can't see either of them allowing Voldie to kill their only son. Don't forget that Voldie described Lucius as slippery.

Lucius seems cold, and to most of the world he is, but I think JKR put the Malfoys in the series to be the magical Dursleys. I can easily see Draco as a carbon-copy of Dudley, but in a more subdued manner. Both are spoiled, over-indulged, self-important bullies who have to have their sidekicks around. Dudley gets nearly forty birthday presents while Draco gets constant boxes of sweets from home.

The Malfoys abuse their house-elf. So do the Dursleys, except their house-elf happens to be human and their relative. I can easily see Lucius tormenting something that isn't human, but I believe he would take great pride in his only son, and an only son who looks so much like him. There may be disappointments, but at the same time, Draco did become a prefect.

At Madam Malkin's in the first book, Draco is talking about bullying his father into buying him a racing broom. We know Lucius bought the racing broom in the second book, but Draco talking about bullying his father is similar to Dudley whacking Vernon with the Smeltings stick.

The Borgin and Burkes scene in CoS makes it seem as if Lucius is hard and cold, but broken down, it shows something else.

When they first arrive, Draco reaches for an eyeball and Lucius tells him to touch nothing. That may sound mean, but knowing what is in Borgin and Burkes and the possible dangers, it can show that Lucius doesn't want his only son injured or even killed.

Draco whines about his father buying him a present, and Lucius tells him that the promised item is a racing broom. Draco goes off on a tangent about Harry, and Lucius says something about Draco already having already said that at least a dozen times. That shows Lucius having remarkable patience with a whiny, spoiled, demanding child.

Borgin and Lucius are conducting business when Draco interrupts to ask about the Hand of Glory. By that time Lucius seems exasperated and makes a few cold comments. Draco has not only interrupted a business discussion but has also embarrassed Lucius. His comments seem fairly mild considering what we know of him.

Lucius keeps Draco informed throught the series about the Heir of Slytherin, what happened to Arthur because of the Ford Anglia, the Tri-Wizard Tournament, and various other things. They do communicate.

Most telling is that while Draco usually refers to Lucius as "father" when he's showing off his father's influence and power, when Lucius is in Azkaban, he tells Harry that "Dad and the others" will be out soon. When it comes to something emotional, it's Dad.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul19, 2004 11:27 am (#491 of 1825)
I agree with Weeny Owl.



Paulus Maximus - Jul19, 2004 11:31 am (#492 of 1825)
More agreeable forum members...

I agree with Luke E.A. Lockhart.



virgoddess1313 - Jul19, 2004 11:36 am (#493 of 1825)
That is a very good argument, Weeny Owl. You've almost got my mind changed on the issue. Almost. I'm still don't see much affection in their relationship. I'll think on it for awhile though.



rambkowalczyk - Jul19, 2004 11:58 am (#494 of 1825)
Good Observation, Weeny Owl.

Back in Jan (Post #284 I don't know how to link) I suggested the possibility that Draco might be clever enough to offer his testimony to Dumbledore that Umbridge confessed to sending dementors to Harrys neighborhood last July. This would allow him to look good in the wizarding world and cause some people to think he might have changed--that he isn't his father's son.

It was argued that Draco wasn't that clever enough,but now 6 months later I would like to make a rebuttal. He had no problem convincing Pansy in book 3 that he was in pain from Buckbeak's attack when he wasn't. During the summer it will be obvious that Fudge's influence is waning and that Draco will know that Umbridge isn't coming back to Hogwarts. In Draco's mind gaining Dumbledore's trust would be most helpful to the Death Eaters so he rats on Umbridge. Since she wasn't a Death Eater but only an aquaintence of L. Malfoy she is expendable.

Maybe Draco isn't clever enough to think of this by himself. Maybe he is prompted to do this by his mother.

I'm sure Dumbledore won't believe this for a moment. He will know Draco is lying. But he may not tell anyone as this may put Draco in danger of being killed by death eaters if he doesn't succeed in his mission.

There are still flaws in this idea.



Sir Tornado - Jul19, 2004 12:02 pm (#495 of 1825)
I agree with everyone who thinks Draco is a nasty git.



Weeny Owl - Jul19, 2004 12:55 pm (#496 of 1825)
Don't get me wrong... while I think the Malfoys genuinely care about one another, I still think they're all horribly evil, and Draco is not only evil, he's an arrogant, nasty, vindictive, hateful, snotty, prejudiced, shallow creep.

I see Draco and Dudley as being interchangable, except that Draco can do magic. Other than that, anything nasty Dudley does is something that I can see Draco doing.

If Harry did something that got Vernon imprisoned, there's no doubt in my mind that Dudley would want to kill him. Draco is probably going to be ten times as bad as what we've seen so far since he blames Harry for Lucius being in Azkaban.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul19, 2004 1:31 pm (#497 of 1825)
The problem is that Draco is infinitely more competent than Dudley. Although they are both cowards, Dudley is a little more so (from my point of view), and Draco at least can manipulate social situations without seeming like a crybaby.

Hence, I feel Dudley is too cowardly to avenge his father; Draco, on the other hand...



Weeny Owl - Jul19, 2004 2:01 pm (#498 of 1825)
I understand what you're saying, Luke, but remember that Draco is the one who fled the Forbidden Forest in the first book, and he's also the one who can't seem to be a bully without his sidekicks.

In the first book, Dudley was pretending to cry until his friend showed up. In PoA, Draco was pretending that his injury from Buckbeak was so bad he couldn't cut up his potion ingredients.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul19, 2004 2:41 pm (#499 of 1825)
I'm not denying that they're very similar, even mirrors of each other (sort of like in the movie version of Wizard of Oz where characters in the real world are also characters in the dream world. I'm just saying that I can see Malfoy trying to avenge his father, but not Dudley. Dudley's just too incompetent.



Catherine - Jul19, 2004 3:35 pm (#500 of 1825)
I think it is interesting to have the posts between Lockhart and Weeny Owl about Dudley and Draco, and about their similarities.

We know that Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley when he first met Draco. Weeny Owl and Lockhart both explore this in their most recent posts in this thread.

After reading their posts, I am wondering if anyone thinks that Draco posesses physical courage? Dudley, although he is awful to Harry, might actually posess this trait. He has become an able boxer.

Draco seems to like to have Crabbe and Goyle flex muscle for him.

Any thoughts on this?

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Draco Malfoy Empty posts 501 to 550

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 4:17 pm (#501 of 1825)
I'm guessing Draco doesn't bother to work out much, because fistfights and the like are seen as "muggle-like" - certainly not a trait Draco would want to show. But this doesn't change the fact that the characters are similar - I'm sure Draco is good at hexes, the wizarding equivalent of throwing punches.



zelmia - Jul 19, 2004 5:02 pm (#502 of 1825)
Let me just clarify that when I suggested that Lucius would "hand Draco over" to the Death Eaters, it's because Draco will do something inadvertent: like his temper getting the better of him, or simply trying to show off. He's done this in the past. But the difference will be that whatever he says - or does - will be something that will no longer be able to be overlooked by Voldemort and Co. They will come looking for Draco because they cannot afford to have that kind of liability running around.
I am not suggesting that Draco will try to hand in his resignation. On the contrary, I am saying that he will be be so proud of his new status as Death Nibbler, that he will get caught through playing the same old childish "my Dad's better than yours" kind of games. Only this time, the penalty will be final.
What's more, while I agree that Lucius and Draco do have a very close relationship and their own brand of affection (Weeny Owl, I actually posted something similar to your post back on the old EZBoard thread, although yours is much more detailed. Click here if interested: DRACO AND HIS DAD You have to scroll about halfway down the page.), I think when it comes to choosing his son or choosing his Mentor, Lucius will choose Voldemort.



Weeny Owl - Jul 19, 2004 8:20 pm (#503 of 1825)
Physical courage? I think that would depend on the circumstances. He really isn't that brave without his bodyguards around, but if push came to shove, I could see him getting physical, although probably not with someone bigger than he is.

I do see him going after Hermione eventually. Part of that is movie contamination from PoA, but it's also part of the book PoA when Hermione disappears after she slaps him, and Harry and Ron are worried about her. They're wondering if Malfoy has done something to her.

Zelmia: Draco will do something inadvertent: like his temper getting the better of him, or simply trying to show off. He's done this in the past. But the difference will be that whatever he says - or does - will be something that will no longer be able to be overlooked by Voldemort and Co. They will come looking for Draco because they cannot afford to have that kind of liability running around.

I can most definitely see that, Zelmia. We've already seen that Draco likes to brag and that he has a big mouth which has gotten him in trouble before (his comment about Cedric Diggory at the end of GoF, for one). I'm still not sure Lucius would turn him over to Voldie, but I'm not adamant about my position on it. It could happen even if I can't quite see it now.

I could see a bit more easily having Draco do something and mess it up and get Avada Kedavraed by another Death Eater, and then Lucius having to keep his mouth shut about how angry and anguished he is over his son's death.

I do think that Draco is going to be much nastier in the next book and that he's going to do his best to get revenge on any or all of the six from the Department of Mysteries battle.



Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 8:24 pm (#504 of 1825)
Yeah, Lucius will certainly choose LV. He's was a Slytherin wasn't he?



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 8:38 pm (#505 of 1825)
I'd think it would be more likely that Lucius would be killed, and Draco would either replace him, or go against LV... just a thought.



Catherine - Jul 20, 2004 7:29 am (#506 of 1825)
Zelmia's theory that when it comes to choosing his son or choosing his Mentor, Lucius will choose Voldemort made reflect in general on the father/son issues we've seen in the novels.

We've seen other fathers choose something other than their son. Crouch, Sr. chose his career, and chose to hand his son to the dementors. Riddle, Sr. chose to abandon his wife and left his son in an orphanage.

I think Zelmia may be onto something. I could see Lucius choosing someone or something over Draco. This fits a general pattern we've seen.



Lars Smedberg - Jul 20, 2004 9:01 am (#507 of 1825)
How spoiled is Draco really - and why ? Okay, he may be quite spoiled - but I don't think that it is for his own sake, so to say, but rather for "the sake of appearance"... Well, Narcissa maybe spoils Draco because she wants to "be kind", but not Lucius; I think he has other motives. The Malfoys are rich, and Lucius probably wants everybody to know that - and that includes giving Draco a lot of "material goods" (is that a proper expression ?) in order to "show off". But I seriously doubt that Draco can bully his father the same way Dudley treats HIS parents - and as for Draco's bragging to Harry at Madam Malkin's, I think it's much... well, just bragging. Draco want to impress on Harry.



Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2004 9:53 am (#508 of 1825)
What is there in the books that shows Draco not being a Dudley clone? Just because Lucius is evil and a follower of a dark wizard doesn't mean he doesn't have a soft spot for his only son. Lucius seems rather aristocratic and haughty, and seems much like aristrocrats from the past who indulged their children even if they were abusive to the household help. Draco already knew how to fly and knew quite a bit about Quidditch in his first year. He had to learn from someone, and there had to be a broom he could use whether it was his or a parent's broom.

There is movie contamination from CoS where Jason Isaacs smacked Tom Felton's hand, but that wasn't in the book. In the book, all Lucius Malfoy does is stand with his hand on Draco's shoulder sneering in the same way Draco was sneering. They also had the same pale, pointed face and cold gray eyes.

I can easily see Lucius having a weakness for "Mini-Me." He is the head of a pure blood family that sneers at everyone else, and I can see Draco wanting to be a carbon copy of his father.

As someone has already pointed out, spoiling children can be a form of abuse. I'm not saying Lucius is a good father, but he is a father who genuinely loves his son. Draco could be similar to Regulus Black in that Regulus was considered the "good" son who kept the pure blood family values. Draco could do what Regulus did and join the Death Eaters only to decide later that it was a mistake and get himself killed trying to get out of it.



virgoddess1313 - Jul 20, 2004 11:34 am (#509 of 1825)
Your last idea there, Weeny Owl, about Draco joining the Death Eaters only to have second thoughts, I think is entirely plausible. Draco is very much like his father in many ways, but seems too cowardly to every really get into being a Death Eater.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 2:48 pm (#510 of 1825)
"Draco could do what Regulus did and join the Death Eaters only to decide later that it was a mistake and get himself killed trying to get out of it."

Or he could take a leaf out of Snape's book and play double-agent. Draco likes Snape well enough...



Lily Potter - Jul 20, 2004 3:07 pm (#511 of 1825)
Having found this site, my unending addiction to the books is being fuelled again, and I suspect I'll be re-reading them.. again. So my memory might be a bit shaky. But I feel sorry for Malfoy. I think the movies have influenced my opinions a bit, but he definitely comes across (as has been stated many times -- I haven't read all the posts) as a coward. But to me, all the little hesitations he has towards being a complete terror, show that he might actually have a good side in him somewhere. I don't think he'll completely rehabilitate, but as some people point out the connection between him and Snape, he might not be so bad.

The death-eaters would annihilate him. And right now, the less time he spends with his father, the better. I think he's easily influenced, and his father is the worst for that. I'd like to think that both Draco and Snape are Slytherins. Bit run of the mill nasty people, but ultimately, don't really want death and destruction on all mankind.

I think a lot of teenage boys act in a manner they later regret. Unfortunately for Snape, he hasn't grown up yet, but Malfoy might still have some hope. He's frightened, and strengthens himself in copying the actions and attitude, behaviour and beliefs of his father, so that he doesn't really form his own personality.

To quote myself: "Normal is a word used by people who are afraid of their own differences."

I think Malfoy picks on others solely because he hasn't really established himself or his identity, and takes comfort in mimicking his father's confidence. I too am interested to see how Malfoy will be influenced in the next book.



timrew - Jul 20, 2004 3:24 pm (#512 of 1825)
Draco seems to be smothered by his mother, while being bullied by his father. Thus he ends up wanting to be like his Dad, but, and I think this is important, not having the guts to kill anyone.

I think if he ever did this, it would open his eyes to how awful a black hole has opened up before him.

I think we're going to see the redemption of Draco Malfoy.



ellebell86 - Jul 20, 2004 3:55 pm (#513 of 1825)
I think that Draco and Dudley are slightly different. Dudley and Draco are both bullies but Draco seems more cowardly than Dudley especially since Dudley has started boxing he seems more able to take care of himself than Draco who seems to rely on Crabbe and Goyle as his muscle although neither of them would do much good in a wizard duel. I wonder if Draco will undergo a similar change as Dudley and become even more skilled at being a bully. Draco seems more truly evil while Dudley appears to be just mean. (I dont have any evidence for this but its just the impression I get from them) I also do not think that Draco would be brave enough to go into the DEs. Especially after his father gets sent to azkaban but on the other hand be might not be brave enough to refuse to join. In Borgin and Burkes, Lucius says that he hopes his son will amount to more than a petty criminal. This could be because he genuinely cares for him or because he doesn't want his reputation tarnished by his son.



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 5:15 pm (#514 of 1825)
I think we're going to see the redemption of Draco Malfoy.

I just can't get past his comment about Cedric's death on the train going home at the end of GF. That was one of the most callous (and horrific) statements I've ever read. I just can't see Draco redeeming himself from that.



haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 7:16 pm (#515 of 1825)
Draco is not going to reform.

JKR is apalled that people like him.

He is a nasty little bugger and will stay that way.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 7:35 pm (#516 of 1825)
I tend to agree that Draco will not redeem himself, because of what JKR said. However:

I do think that Draco might end up on the good side... temporarily. If Voldemort kills his father, I wouldn't be surprised if he wants revenge.

I do think Malfoy has been developing more of Dudley's traits like being able to stand up to people - it just hasn't had a chance to show yet. After all, he did fight Ginny in OoTP, even if she won easily.

One more thing: I don't think JKR is "appalled" that people like Draco - she just doesn't agree that he can be reformed. She hasn't exactly said: "I can't believe people like Draco! They must be horrible people." I believe her quote is basically something to the effect that Draco is not the same as Tom Felton, and that he's a bad guy.



Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2004 8:09 pm (#517 of 1825)
Bit run of the mill nasty people, but ultimately, don't really want death and destruction on all mankind.

Remember, though, that this is the person who was only twelve years old when he hoped Hermione died. Draco sees absolutely nothing wrong with his "family values," and sees those who disagree as blood traitors just as Mrs. Black did. Don't forget what haymoni said about his comments on the train about Cedric. This is the boy who said mudbloods and Muggle-lovers would be the first to die, and then started to say that Cedric was first.

I can't see Draco reforming; rather, I can see him only digging himself in deeper and deeper. He always had a rivalry with Harry, but now he hates Harry because of Lucius being in Azkaban. I have a feeling he's going to be after all six from the Department of Mysteries battle.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 8:15 pm (#518 of 1825)
Just to be the "devil's advocate" here: what people say when they are twelve often isn't what they really mean.



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 8:23 pm (#519 of 1825)
I think they don't mean it when it isn't really happening--when it's an abstract concept. People were being turned into stone, however, and there was the real possibility of Death. Draco knew this, and still wished Hermione dead. More importantly, he wasn't joking when he said it.

I still think his statement in GF was worse, though. Awful.



Czarina II - Jul 20, 2004 9:00 pm (#520 of 1825)
"I think they don't mean it when it isn't really happening--when it's an abstract concept. People were being turned into stone, however, and there was the real possibility of Death. Draco knew this, and still wished Hermione dead. More importantly, he wasn't joking when he said it." -- schoff

Well, there is always the possibility that someone can die. I often wished enemies of mine would disappear when I was 12. Sometimes I even wished they would die, but I had a limited concept of death at the time. I just wanted them gone, I didn't want them to suffer horrible pain and their families to grieve, etc.

Draco just wants Hermione out of the way in CoS, from what I can tell. She is a mudblood who is smarter than him, braver than him, and friends with Harry Potter. She isn't afraid to stand up to him, either. He hates her, so he wishes she were gone from Hogwarts. The only way she could be gone entirely would be for her to die, ergo, he wishes her dead. (In the wizarding world, however, she could come back as a ghost, though I'm sure Draco didn't take that possibility into account!)

Yes, Draco is an evil git, but he IS just spouting the family line. His comments in PS/CoS are forgivable because of his age; his comments in PoA/GoF/OoP are in line with the things we've heard his father, aunt, and great-aunt say first-hand. We can presume that his mother, uncle, grandparents, etc. thought the same and said similar things. I hate to sound trite, but he still doesn't know any better. He is very immature and besides which, pureblood mania is all he knows. He can't understand how the Weasleys can even tolerate mudbloods and muggles. Thus, he hates Ron, Harry, Dumbledore, and the like.

He says evil things, sure, but he doesn't think they are so evil. He is threatening Harry.



Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 9:02 pm (#521 of 1825)
What statement in GoF?



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 9:09 pm (#522 of 1825)
I think the infamous "statement in GoF" is where Malfoy says something along the lines of how Cedric was just the first, and there will be many more deaths, muhahahahaha et cetera.



Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 9:15 pm (#523 of 1825)
Can someone quote? It seems my book doesn't contain those lines.



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 9:23 pm (#524 of 1825)
Well, there is always the possibility that someone can die. I often wished enemies of mine would disappear when I was 12. Sometimes I even wished they would die, but I had a limited concept of death at the time. I just wanted them gone, I didn't want them to suffer horrible pain and their families to grieve, etc.

People were in actual danger. It wasn't abstract. Malfoy was literally watching people he knew turned to stone. That's not a limited concept anymore, it's concrete--it's happening. If I had watched someone I knew dying at the age of 12 you can bet I wouldn't wish it on someone else.

If people weren't being petrified and in imminent danger then I would agree--it's just fanciful thinking on Draco's part. But it was happening right before his eyes and he was still egging it on. That's what makes the difference IMO.

"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day of Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around riffraff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well--second--Diggory was the f--" (GF 37 729 US)

He was rightly knocked immediately unconscious.



Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2004 9:55 pm (#525 of 1825)
If people weren't being petrified and in imminent danger then I would agree--it's just fanciful thinking on Draco's part. But it was happening right before his eyes and he was still egging it on. That's what makes the difference IMO.

I agree with you, schoff. Also, when Draco was talking to the Polyjuiced Harry and Ron in the Slytherin common room, he had been told some of what happened the first time the Heir of Slytherin made an appearance. He didn't know all the details, but he knew someone had died. He also wanted to know who the Heir of Slytherin was so he could lend a hand.



The giant squid - Jul 21, 2004 12:40 am (#526 of 1825)
I think Draco will end up in the same category of evil as Umbridge: not a DE (likely due to cowardice), but not playing for the angels either. He'll always be against Harry, but not specifically as a follower of LV.

Actually, phrasing it like that makes him sound similar to Snape. He does show an affinity to Severus, after all ( as mentioned earlier).

--Mike



zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 12:51 am (#527 of 1825)
I wonder why everyone keeps referring to Draco as a coward. Because he has a little goon squad around him all the time? One could argue the same about Harry. Harry Ron and Hermione travel around in a pack just like Draco Crabbe and Goyle (and now Pansy Parkinson). Apart from running from the Forbidden Forest, in which case, I might point out, he did send up the requisite sparks to call for help, what other cowardice has he actually shown?
By the way, I'm not being rhetorical or sarcastic here, I really don't remember.



The giant squid - Jul 21, 2004 12:59 am (#528 of 1825)
I suppose it's just the vibe I get from him. I don't have any book references (convenient, I know) but I seem to remember points where he was talking his talk but when called upon to walk the walk he backed down.

I do know that the movie Draco is a snivelly little git, and I really hope I'm not contaminating things with that...

--Mike



schoff - Jul 21, 2004 1:11 am (#529 of 1825)
Harry's actually done some heroic deeds, even though he's surrounded by his "pack."

Draco waits until others' backs are turned before striking out. He never does anything while the teachers are around, for instance. I could never see Draco standing up to someone the way Harry stood up to Umbridge. He uses others' weaknesses against them in an effort to destroy, and twists facts to get what he wants--as in his vendetta against Hagrid. The truth could bite Draco, and he still wouldn't use it if it didn't suit his purpose.

He's not a "fraidy cat" coward, but he is someone who uses others to get what he wants instead of doing it himself. A manipulator.



zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 1:18 am (#530 of 1825)
I guess I would personally say there is a big difference between being a "fraidy cat" and being a manipulator. But I see what you mean, schoff.



Weeny Owl - Jul 21, 2004 2:15 am (#531 of 1825)
Aside from him fleeing the Forbidden Forest, during flying lessons he tossed Neville's Remembrall away, and Harry said something about him not being brave without Crabbe and Goyle. Also, in GoF he tried to hex Harry while Harry's back was turned.



haymoni - Jul 21, 2004 5:38 am (#532 of 1825)
When I first read the sentancing of the young Barty Jr., he reminded me of Draco - mostly the physical description.

Voldy needs numbers. Maybe the young Mr. Malfoy will remind him of Barty Jr. and he will become Voldy's new apprentice.



ellebell86 - Jul 21, 2004 9:35 am (#533 of 1825)
I was also reminded of Draco when Barty Crouch Jr. was described. The way that his powerful father got him out of trouble. Barty seemed weaker than Draco but then again he was in a much more difficult situation that Draco has ever been in. Although I dont want more DEs, I hope that Draco finds himself in a similar situation because I dont think he can be redeemed. Barty was really saved by his mother, I wonder if Narcissa will take the fall for something Draco does.

Also when Draco proposes a duel he doesn't show. He also told McGonogal about Norbert and Hermione and Harry being out of bed at night. Most tattle-tales that I know are also cowards.

I do not think that Harry has the same kind of support from Hermione and Ron as Draco gets from Crabbe and Goyle. Harry does not control H&R while Draco definetly can get C&G to do whatever he wants. Also, Harry had to Voldermort on his own is SS,CoS,GoF. Draco has never done anything noteworthy.



rambkowalczyk - Jul 21, 2004 9:59 am (#534 of 1825)
In the scene in Umbridge's office when she is about to perform the cruciatius curse to make Harry talk, I believe it said that Draco "was watching her with a hungry expression on his face."

Whether Draco can kill or not he certainly wants to watch.



Padfoot - Jul 21, 2004 10:12 am (#535 of 1825)
Draco could do what Regulus did and join the Death Eaters only to decide later that it was a mistake and get himself killed trying to get out of it.

Yes, I see this happening. I think he will join with the DE's just because his dear old dad did. Plus it's a great way to thwart Harry. Once Draco gets in deeper though, he will not want to kill/ torture innocent lives. He might be very similar to Lucius, but I do not think he is as ambitious as his father. Although the love of power is there.



Susurro Notities - Jul 21, 2004 1:42 pm (#536 of 1825)
Draco wants - money, influence, and power. Just like Daddy. He is an easy mark for Voldemort - just as Daddy must have been when he was young. The question is can Draco really perform as a Death Eater? Will the pampered entouraged boy of leisure be as loyal, ruthless, and cunning as Barty Crouch Jr.? Will he end as one of Voldemort's faithful or as his victim?



drippan - Jul 21, 2004 7:30 pm (#537 of 1825)
Hey everyone,

Finally read everyone's view on Draco and my eyes are quite sore....

I think JKR did a great job with Draco at first. He shows the prejudiced side of the WW. The Malfoys are the extreme left to the extreme right of the Weasleys.

1. Malfoys are rich, Weasley are poor.

2. Malfoys are political oriented. Weasleys are family oriented.

3. Malfoys are self serving. Weasleys watch out for everyone.

4. Malfoys believe in pure bloods only. Weasleys except who you are.

The best thing that JKR did is make both families pure bloods to show us the differences that take place even in the WW.

Draco also supplies Harry (and us, the readers) alot of information about the "bad" side of WW. Who here knew what a "mudblood" was before Draco called Hermione one? Who knew that some wizards only thought "pure bloods" are the only wizards worth anything?

IMO, Draco is quite smart. He is also athletic (he must have caught all the other snitches in order for Slytherian to be in first place until the last game). He's a leader (especially the way the other Slytherians hang around him and does what he does).

The problem with Draco is his intelligence. He might know things but he uses it in the wrong way. He tries to manipulate a situation but most of the time he does not think it through. He shoots from the hip.

He also feels weak without his followers. Harry is a great leader because of the way he treats people, and they respect him for him showing respect back. Draco is a leader by getting people to follow his lead or orders without him having to respect them. He can care less about Crabbe or Goyle or anyone else.

The 2 leadership styles can be put to the test by looking at the train scene in OotP. Other DA members who Harry has been training took out Malfoy and co. They didn't do this because they hated Malfoy, they did it because they respected their leader, Harry.

IMO, Malfoy has a lot to think about but with his upbringing, there is only one road to take and that is to become a DE in training. He has the same thing as Neville.

1. Draco is embarassed that his dad is in prison. Neville is embarassed his folks are in St Mungos.

2. Draco hates Harry for his dad's imprisonment. Neville hates Bella Lestrange for his parent condition.

Neville is getting strong to take out Lestrange. Draco is going to get stronger to take out Harry. Over the summer he is going to learn the Dark Arts from his mother and other DEs. He is going refine his skills at manipulating people. He will also report happening at Hogwarts and especially Harry/DDs.

He will have his followers just like Harry has his followers. The reasoning behind this is simple:

OotP versus OoLV

DA versus DE wannabe's

What going to stop the second one from climaxing to high is that DE Wannabe squad will fail due to leadership as stated above. Friendship and respect leadership that Harry supplies will win over this.

I can see in Book 7 where Draco leaves school to become a full blown DE after failing in his 6th year.

Well, that's enough of that.....

DripPan



virgoddess1313 - Jul 21, 2004 9:03 pm (#538 of 1825)
I can't see Draco failing in school. He's obviously got some brains... he's a prefect, afterall, not to mention failing would destroy a lot of his "I'm better than everyone" image. If Draco was to become a fully-fledged Death Eater in the course of the series (which I tend to doubt, but hypothetically), I see him in more of a spy role. He would be an easy plant in Hogwarts to keep an eye on Harry for the other side.

I don't see that as being very likely though. Now that is father has been exposed as a Death Eater, and given the fact that Draco has always made his feelings on certain issues quite clear, I would think Dumbledore would want to keep a closer watch on him.



drippan - Jul 22, 2004 1:49 am (#539 of 1825)
virgoddess1313, "I can't see Draco failing in school."

Never said he fail. Fred and George didn't fail but they still dropped out.

DripPan



therealscabbers - Jul 22, 2004 2:59 am (#540 of 1825)
Not sure how good a spy he would make, a good spy makes the people on the opposing side think that he is on their side - cant see Harry DD or the DA believng Draco has come over all good and therfore they will all be keeping an eye on him and making sure he and the other Death Nibblers do not get a hold of any important infomration



virgoddess1313 - Jul 22, 2004 10:35 am (#541 of 1825)
Sorry, DripPan.. I misinterpreted. I do that sometimes.

I think in the situation that Draco is in he wouldn't be a bad spy. He's at Hogwarts, where it is well known that Dumbledore gives everyone a chance and everyone know he's a git anyway. I don't imagine he'd be a full blown, great spy or anything, but he could give a general inside picture.



Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2004 1:16 pm (#542 of 1825)
I think it depends on what type of spying he would do. After all, Kreacher was able to do enough spying so that what he said allowed Voldie to manipulate Harry's dreams.

I can easily picture him reporting the trio's every move to his mother who would report it to Voldie or to Bella to report to Voldie.



ShelterGirl - Jul 22, 2004 5:11 pm (#543 of 1825)
therealscabbers--

Just have to interject that your avatar looks just like my rat, "Steve."

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

ShelterGirl



virgoddess1313 - Jul 22, 2004 6:11 pm (#544 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, that's more along the line of what I was thinking for Draco if he were a spy. Well put.

Besides, what is important information and what is not in some cases is hard to distiguish. Who would have thought that the intelligence Kreacher gained and was able to reveal would be enough to have the large effect that it did? Small things, things that maybe no one would give a thought to could have a profound impact. Draco could easily be witness to that sort of thing.



drippan - Jul 22, 2004 6:56 pm (#545 of 1825)
I'm wondering how everyone feels about the incident of Draco getting turned into a ferret? I laughed but after re-reading, it just show how bad DE's can be.

It wasn't Mad Eye who turned him into a ferret, but Crouch Jr, a DE. And Draco, being the son of a loyal DE, being humiliated like he was.....

Talk about doing anything and betrayal done upon each other just to gain power and in this case, the power to build a friendship with Harry......

I'm wondering if Draco will ever recall who actually done this to him and what effects it will have on his relations with future DE's?

DripPan



haymoni - Jul 22, 2004 7:49 pm (#546 of 1825)
Lucius was NOT a loyal DE according to Barty, Jr.

He was a Death Eater that went free.

He punished Ferret Boy BECAUSE of his father.



The giant squid - Jul 23, 2004 5:07 am (#547 of 1825)
Wow, haymoni...I never caught that aspect of it (and I just finished re-reading GoF last night) but it really does make sense. I always thought the ferret-izing of Draco was a bit harsh, but funny--just there to show how over-the-top Moody can be. Throwing in he aspect of Crouch's opinion of Malfoy Sr. it fits.



Padfoot - Jul 23, 2004 2:28 pm (#548 of 1825)
Turning Draco into a ferret isn't that harsh. Now bouncing him against the stone floor and walls is. I am pretty sure my ferrets would not like me doing that to them.

Good point hamoni: He punished Ferret Boy BECAUSE of his father. I wonder if Draco found out about Barty Crouch Jr. being the one who did that to him? If so, he probably told his father. I would love to see that conversation between Lucius and Draco.



Catherine - Jul 23, 2004 2:29 pm (#549 of 1825)
Padfoot,

I didn't know you had ferrets. I'm sure that Draco gives a bad name to ferrets!



Padfoot - Jul 23, 2004 2:35 pm (#550 of 1825)
Yes Catherine I have two ferrets (my place is too small for dogs). A while back everyone was calling Draco Ferret Boy, which I objected to. Although I must admit, I laughed at that part of the book.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 2:44 pm (#551 of 1825)
I think both the turning Draco into a ferret and bouncing him had to do with keeping up appearances ie: Moody as teacher,(casting spell when opponents back is turned). And also Barty Jr's bad feelings toward Draco's father. Padfoot, I have 9 ferrets, and no they wouldn't like being bounced either. But, I still laugh out loud everytime I see that scene in my minds eye!



Padfoot - Jul 23, 2004 2:49 pm (#552 of 1825)
Nine, my goodness! How do you manage with so many? I guess this is the wrong thread for that. Come over to the chat thread sometime and we can talk about those funny little critters.

I wished the first time I read it that the fake Moody had turned Draco into a rat. But that would be repeating the Wormtail thing, so scratch that.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 2:51 pm (#553 of 1825)
True, but Draco is more kin to a rat than to a ferret :-) See, I sneaked Draco in there!



Catherine - Jul 23, 2004 3:02 pm (#554 of 1825)
So *ahem* trying to relate this to Malfoy, but still curiously asking, "Are there any characteristics of the ferret that you see in Draco, Padfoot?" Good or bad, doesn't matter.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 3:09 pm (#555 of 1825)
I know my opinion wasn't asked, but...ferrets are great snake-killers, being related to the mongoose. As for Draco, hmm, am still looking for some type of redeaming quality. :-) Fun aside, ferrets are brave, couragous, almost to the point of stupidity, the opposite of Malfoy. I got the feeling ferrets are not JRK's favorite animals, not sure why, Buckbeak's diet, and bouncing ferrets come to mind.



Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2004 3:10 pm (#556 of 1825)
Personally, my favorite part of that scene is what happens some time later when Hermione says to Draco, "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you?"



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 3:18 pm (#557 of 1825)
I loved that too Prefect Marcus! Draco did seem a tad nervous! No idea why though! LOL



Padfoot - Jul 23, 2004 3:29 pm (#558 of 1825)
Ferrets are stubborn, the do not give up easily. Mine certainly love to get away with stuff they know they aren't supposed to do. They steal from me. Ha, that is like the movie Draco. Does Draco steal in the books? Ferrets are skittish, so very twitchy. They are very impulsive. Draco doesn't seem to plan things out too much. So maybe these comparisons can be applied to him.



drippan - Jul 23, 2004 3:37 pm (#559 of 1825)
Padfoot, "Does Draco steal in the books?"

I don't think that's mentioned but Hermione did to get the ingredients for the poly juice. As a matter of fact, Harry and Ron were accomplishers.....

Hmmm, makes you think maybe we're cheering for the wrong team...

DripPan



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 6:03 pm (#560 of 1825)
Not sure if he steals in the books, but can't help remembering him tearing page from book in movie just before the Weasley confrontation, and in the Slytherin common room "polyjuice potion", is this yours, no, then pockets...so I don't believe our subject is above stealing...Hand of Glory I am spectulating on.



ellebell86 - Jul 24, 2004 11:53 am (#561 of 1825)
Draco doesn't steal anything in the book but he does ask his father to buy him the hand of glory which is used by thieves. Oh...While Ron is in the Hospital Wing Draco asks Madam Pomfrey is he can borrow Ron's book which has Charlie's letter about Norbert in it. I think that this is equivalent to stealing because he knows that Ron would never allow him to borrow it under normal circumstances. But Draco could tell Madam Pomfrey that it was a dragon that bit Ron.

I also have 2 ferrets one of them is actually named malfoy because he is white with red eyes and always jumping up and down. Mine are always stealing from me too. They are stupidly unafraid. ie. I was taking them for a walk and a large dog that could have easily eaten them in one bite began barking at them. Before I could pick them up they charged at the dog and bit his lip. They proceeded to hang limp from his lip while the dog whimpered. One thing that I think ferrets may have in common with Draco is that in the wild they hut in small groups that ambush their prey. They can hide very easily and also slither through very small spaces like under doors and behind furniture. Draco seems to get away with most things and find out stuff that he is not supposed to know.



timrew - Jul 24, 2004 4:59 pm (#562 of 1825)
I apologise for referring to the movie POA on this thread, but I believe it's relevant.

In POA the movie, Draco comes across as an all-star wimp and a coward - even more so than he is portrayed in the books. Has his fate been sealed by this? Is this how he's going to be characterised in the remaining two books? JKR says that she and Steve Kloves work closely together.

I think what I'm trying to say is, will there be no redemption for Draco? Is his character set to end his days as a one-dimensional, saddo git, with only a few equally saddo, one-dimensional gits as his friends?

I think this would be a total waste of his character; because, despite his one-dimensionality, he has been a character that I like to read about; and I was hoping for his character to develop in book 6.

He has nowhere to go in Hogwarts. His Dad (once a proud, rich, successful figure he could boast about) is now banged up in Azkaban as a vile, discredited Death Eater.

He has no friends, except for the equally saddo, one-dimensional gits I mentioned before. So where is he to go? Any ideas?



Julia. - Jul 24, 2004 8:34 pm (#563 of 1825)
I'm not sure about this one Tim. It could go either way. Draco could continue to bully Harry and make life miserable for him, becuase he put his father in Azakaban. He could also turn seriously evil and begin officially working for Voldemort, assuming he hasn't done so yet. He could also start to evolve into his own person, not just an extention of his father, and learn to do things for himself, now that daddy is in Azakaban.

Actually, I think there was one line in the PoA movie that sums up what I think will happen to Draco. "Come on Buckbeak, come get the nice dead ferret!"-Movie Hermione



Julia. - Jul 24, 2004 8:34 pm (#563 of 1825)
I'm not sure about this one Tim. It could go either way. Draco could continue to bully Harry and make life miserable for him, becuase he put his father in Azakaban. He could also turn seriously evil and begin officially working for Voldemort, assuming he hasn't done so yet. He could also start to evolve into his own person, not just an extention of his father, and learn to do things for himself, now that daddy is in Azakaban.

Actually, I think there was one line in the PoA movie that sums up what I think will happen to Draco. "Come on Buckbeak, come get the nice dead ferret!"-Movie Hermione



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2004 8:50 pm (#564 of 1825)
Well said Julia, Come on Buckbeak, come get the nice dead ferret!" Draco can turn either way, and I believe he turns the wrong way, at least till his survival instincets kick in... Then I do believe our young friend Draco will show his true colors!



therealscabbers - Jul 26, 2004 3:34 am (#565 of 1825)
hey just had a thought - all you ferret owners - wonder if they are holding auditions for Draco Ferret?! maybe you should find out and put yours up for the role!! Wonder if the ferret in along came polly will go up for the role!! Just a thought - really belongs in the GOF film thread I suppose. I heard that Rupert kept the 2 rats used for scabbers!!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 26, 2004 3:49 am (#566 of 1825)
hey just had a thought - all you ferret owners - wonder if they are holding auditions for Draco Ferret?! Like I'd want mine to become "the amazing bouncing ferret"? Hmmm, no, I think the role suits Draco perfectly!



Paulus Maximus - Jul 26, 2004 4:51 am (#567 of 1825)
I think the bouncing ferret will be a CGI effect. Just so they can say in the credits that "No animals were harmed in the production of this film."



ellebell86 - Jul 26, 2004 8:40 am (#568 of 1825)
Yes Im pretty sure that my ferrets wouldn't want to be bounced around, but then again they are pretty fearless. Also my ferrets wouldn't listen to instructions. Anyway the ferret in Along Came Polly was a sable (brown & white with a mask on the face) Draco is described as white.



Padfoot - Jul 26, 2004 9:33 am (#569 of 1825)
A ferret listen to instructions? LOL! Yeah right. That will be a CGI ferret if it is included in the movies.

Back to the books though. I think either Draco will really go bad or diminish in HbP. If he keeps going in the direction he has been, he will not even be in book 7 as he is no threat to Harry. However if he reforms (not likely) or becomes a super evil git, then he will become interesting once more. I would like to see his character develop.



Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 11:01 am (#570 of 1825)
becomes a super evil git

I vote for that, Padfoot. Mainly because he's so infuriated with his father being in Azkaban. Plus, JKR said that there were a couple of things in the movie that foreshadowed things in the last two books, and I'm wondering if Draco talking about getting that "jumped-up Mudblood" is going to be Draco going after Hermione.

We know from CoS that he is jealous of her abilities, and after the Department of Mysteries battle and blaming it on Harry, I can see him also blaming her and doing something nasty to her. I don't think he'll be able to kill her, but I can see him trying to.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 26, 2004 12:23 pm (#571 of 1825)
Considering Hermione's comment about the "nice dead ferret," I think Hermione is going to kill Malfoy...

...and feed him to Buckbeak...

...nah, it's a silly idea. It'd never work.



haymoni - Jul 26, 2004 12:30 pm (#572 of 1825)
Does anyone have any of JKR's quotes about Draco?

I seem to recall that she was very concerned that readers liked him.

This tells me that he won't make it past 17.



Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 12:49 pm (#573 of 1825)
Considering Hermione's comment about the "nice dead ferret," I think Hermione is going to kill Malfoy...

...and feed him to Buckbeak...

If he does try to kill her, I could see her transforming him into a ferret. She's good at Transfiguration. She wouldn't have to kill him, though... just let Buckbeak play with him for a while. That'd teach the twitchy little ferret. Maybe she could keep him as a pet.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 26, 2004 12:52 pm (#574 of 1825)
Draco as a pet ferret? The look on my face now is just as blissful as Ron's was when he was remembering the image of the amazing, bouncing ferret. Ah, what a picture!



TomProffitt - Jul 26, 2004 12:54 pm (#575 of 1825)
Draco will remain to the end. He is Harry's character foil. Everything Harry is, Draco is not; everything Draco is, Harry is not. How do they treat their friends? What is their heritage? How do they react to Umbridge? What are their opinions of Dumbledore? Even how they got onto their Quidditch teams are opposites.

Draco will be around until the very end.



Czarina II - Jul 26, 2004 1:21 pm (#576 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, I have to compliment you on your Draco-ferret-pet idea! I can just picture Hermione keeping him as her pet, magically extending his lifespan, and letting her little Weasleys play with him, pulling his tail and whatnot.



ellebell86 - Jul 26, 2004 2:22 pm (#577 of 1825)
Its a cool idea but I dont really think Draco could end up Hermione's pet. Because he would learn alot of things about OoTP and if he ever escaped then he could tell Voldie lots of secret information. Also ferrets are very good at escaping so she would have a tough time without keeping him in a cage all the time. Plus it would probably be illegal. Not that they seem to have much of a problem breaking school rules but they rarely broke laws. Besides pet Draco would give all ferrets a bad name.



drippan - Jul 26, 2004 2:37 pm (#578 of 1825)
All this mentioning of Buckbeak makes me wander if they have a good memory?

After getting Buckbeak nearly killed in PoA, maybe he will take revenge on Draco!!!

DripPan



schoff - Jul 26, 2004 7:31 pm (#579 of 1825)
haymoni: He punished Ferret Boy BECAUSE of his father.

I think that scene had more to do with Crouch Jr's problems with "people who attack when their opponent's back's turned" (GF 13 205 US) then anything he might have been feeling about Lucius Malfoy's escape from punishment, or even Draco's little stunt that he tried to pull on Harry.

Perhaps Lucius once attacked Jr when his back was turned, but I still feel there was more to Jr's vehemence against Draco than what was before our eyes. Definitely an underlying motive, but not because Draco's dad was not a "true DE" in Jr's eyes.

It really seemed more against the act, and not the person.



Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 8:17 pm (#580 of 1825)
As funny as the idea is, I wasn't serious about Draco becoming Hermione's pet, but I am serious about him possibly attacking her. Not only is she better in school than he, not only is she a friend of Harry Potter's, but she's from a Muggle background. That's more than enough for her to become a target.



S.E. Jones - Jul 26, 2004 9:12 pm (#581 of 1825)
schoff: It really seemed more against the act, and not the person.

I don't know. It might have been the person. I mean, Draco was attacking Harry, the person Crouch Jr was supposed to be delivering to Voldemort later. He had to make sure Harry was able to compete in all the tasks, so maybe it was to keep his plan as uncomplicated (i.e. if Harry was injured by Draco and couldn't compete) as possible.....



schoff - Jul 26, 2004 9:40 pm (#582 of 1825)
SE Jones: Draco was attacking Harry, the person Crouch Jr was supposed to be delivering to Voldemort later.

The passage reads (to me) as Jr was extremely angry about Draco trying something behind Harry's back, not a personal attack against Draco. "I don't like people who attack when their opponent's back's turned....Stinking, cowardly, scummy thing to do....Never--do--that--again...." Jr never makes it personal. He never adds "you" to any of his statements ("I don't like it when you attack..." or "...scummy thing for you to do" or "you should never do that again...") It's very impersonal.

Yes, Jr needed to deliver Harry to Voldie later, but let's face it--anything Draco was going to do at that moment most likely wouldn't be permanent--especially to the point where it would impede Harry's performance in the upcoming tasks (which wouldn't be for at least another month).



haymoni - Jul 27, 2004 5:57 am (#583 of 1825)
I'll accept that, but the original question was about Lucius being angry about Barty Jr. attacking his son.

I just don't think Barty Jr. cared. I think his initial reaction was to protect Harry, but when he figured out that he had attacked the son of a Death Eater, I'm sure he didn't apologize. And I'm pretty sure that there is a line in there where Barty/Moody tells Draco that he knows who his father is. I think that's where his hatred of the Death Eaters that went free shows itself.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 27, 2004 8:00 am (#584 of 1825)
The son of a Death Eater who didn't go to Azkaban... of course Crouch Jr wouldn't care.



zelmia - Jul 28, 2004 1:41 am (#585 of 1825)
But that's just it, Paulus. He does care. "There is nothing worse than a Death Eater who walked free." We believe until the end that this is Moody's philosophy. In fact, it is Jr.'s. He is disgusted that the other Death Eaters denied their association with Voldemort rather than stand up proudly, as Bella did, and accept the consequences without remorse.
Of course the irony is that he, himself, pleaded innocence to avoid Azkaban, so it doesn't really hold much water.



therealscabbers - Jul 28, 2004 3:13 am (#586 of 1825)
yeah he pleaded innocence and it didnt work for him but it did for others, this would increase the jealousy about those who got off when he didnt - despite his dad being in charge (his view not mine, of course we know he went down because his dad was in charge)

imagine if you and some mates had done somthing wrong and you got punnished and they didnt, their excuses were believed but yours weren't, especially if they were more involved that you were.

Also in his defense he was caught trying to find Voldie and bring him back to power - the others not only lied to get away but once they were free didnt bother to find him



strix - Jul 28, 2004 1:01 pm (#587 of 1825)
I seem to remember he didn't plead innocent to death-eating, only to torturing the Longbottoms. So, he can still keep his moral high ground in regard to the "traitors".



zelmia - Jul 28, 2004 5:28 pm (#588 of 1825)
Exactly, Strix. Junior was trying to get off on a technicality, but the reason he wanted to stay out of prison was to be able to continue his search and rescue for his Dark Mentor - not, as he made it seem (taking advantage of his connections), because he was actually sorry for anything he had done.
So what does this have to do with Draco? These two characters seem quite similar. Draco formerly had the connections to allow him to "plead innocent" if he could. He knows how to manipulate not just those around him who are more maluable, but the system itself. But, as I said earlier, I think Draco will find that this no longer works for him in the future episodes of the Saga.



haymoni - Jul 29, 2004 4:02 pm (#589 of 1825)
Meant to do this earlier, but I didn't have my book.

GOF - Chapter 13 (of course!)

Malfoy, whose pale eyes were still watering with pain and humiliation, looked malevolently up at Moody and muttered something in which the words "my father" were distinguishable.

"Oh yeah?" said Moody quietly, limping forward a few steps, the dull clunk of his wooden leg echoing around the hall. "Well I know your father of old, boy....You tell him Moody's keeping a close eye on his son...you tell him that from me....Now, your Head of House'll be Snape, will it?"

"Yes," said Malfoy resentfully.

"Another old friend," growled Moody. "I've been looking forward to a chat with old Snape....Come on, you...."

Two Death Eaters that went free.



schoff - Jul 29, 2004 7:23 pm (#590 of 1825)
And a comment that happened well after the bouncing ferret incident. I still don't think the two are related. Crouch was mad because Draco attacked behind Harry's back, not because Crouch didn't like Draco's dad.



S.E. Jones - Jul 29, 2004 7:24 pm (#591 of 1825)
Not meaning to interupt the Draco discussion, but we have a 'Barty Crouch, Jr' thread if anyone wants to dig into his motivations, etc....



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 8:09 pm (#592 of 1825)
Thought we were discussing Barty's motivations...just because we really, really like the bouncing ferret...ok, I regress.

I go back to Barty/Moody, it does seeem to me as I have posted prior, in order for Barty to pull off being Moody, he has not only to look like him, but think and act like him.

Cusres thrown behind the back are not cool, esp. to the "Moody image". Barty does have a image to keep up, esp. to fool DD.



S.E. Jones - Jul 29, 2004 8:13 pm (#593 of 1825)
That was my way of saying the Crouch discussion should be moved unless you start relating it directly back to Draco....



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 8:21 pm (#594 of 1825)
Sorry, thought I was moving it back to Draco. Moody makes an example of Draco to show he is a teacher, the so-called real Moody. (Fairness, don't strike an opponenent when back is turned). He has to to keep up his front, at the same time, Barty is showing his contempt for Draco's father, as one who sold out.



therealscabbers - Jul 30, 2004 1:25 am (#595 of 1825)
scoff love your bouncing ferret!!



haymoni - Jul 30, 2004 12:39 pm (#596 of 1825)
schoff - that quote was right after Minerva transfigured Draco back.

Barty/Moody was busy bouncing him and Minerva was horrified that he had used transfiguration to discipline a student.

She changed him back and poor Draco's eyes were still watering.

Boo hoo! Poor Ferret Boy!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 30, 2004 1:47 pm (#597 of 1825)
He did bounce quite well! :-)



schoff - Jul 30, 2004 5:25 pm (#598 of 1825)
schoff - that quote was right after Minerva transfigured Draco back.

I know. It happens on the next page, well after the moment where Draco is bouncing (the more appropriate time to make the comment if that was Jrs' true motive).

Draco just seems completely irredeemable in my eyes. He does far too many nasty things and never once shows a conscience. If he hasn't shown a conscience by now, then I highly doubt he ever will.



haymoni - Jul 30, 2004 5:30 pm (#599 of 1825)
I agree completely - the boy is beyond help.

What was that line - "I'm not really bad. I'm just drawn that way!"

Draco was just WRITTEN that way - it's not his fault!

Blame Lucius!



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 31, 2004 12:42 pm (#600 of 1825)
I think a good way to have the final chapters of Book 7 would be to have one member of each house along side Harry in the final battle. Draco could be the one from Slytherin, and he could die, but not before he realized the error of his fathers ways and decided he wanted to be on the good side.(thats actually a very cruel way to go IMO)


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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 601 to 650

Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 8:01 am

Prefect Marcus - Jul 31, 2004 1:16 pm (#601 of 1825)
The only problem with that, Matilda, is Rowling likes to drop hints of future major events. Can you think of one, just one instance that hints Draco may see the errors of his ways? I am afraid I can't.

Pansy, yes. Draco, no.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 31, 2004 4:27 pm (#602 of 1825)
I know. I was getting myself all excited over nothing. I just would like to see him redeem himself, but I know it won't happen.



S.E. Jones - Jul 31, 2004 10:42 pm (#603 of 1825)
I think Draco will be redeamed, but only as a character. Thus far he's been blending more and more into the background. He's hardly even a challenge to Harry anymore. So why is still even there? I think his purpose will have to be redeamed by bringing him into the forefront again, making him a threat again. We haven't seen anything that would cause a change in Draco's character until now. His father being imprisoned at the end of OotP will cause Draco to rethink some things, give him a true reason to actually hate Harry, and, I feel, his character will change for the worse. He will re-occupy his position as an enemy worth Harry's time once again. That way, in terms of the story, Harry is preoccupied while Voldemort regains power and that power will then be at a hieght again when Harry has to face him.

I also feel, though, that it will be for someone else to take Draco down. I'm guessing Ron because of all the antagonism between them in the books.....



Weeny Owl - Jul 31, 2004 10:54 pm (#604 of 1825)
I could see either Ron or Hermione or both, Sarah. I'd be satisfied either way.



Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 12:22 am (#605 of 1825)
I think, it might be Neville.



S.E. Jones - Aug 1, 2004 1:24 am (#606 of 1825)
I can't see Neville. He has bigger fish to fry (*cough* Bellatrix *cough*) to be wasting his time bringing down Draco.



Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 3:32 am (#607 of 1825)
Right. So, it will be Ron or Hermione after all. Hey, don't forget Ginny and the Bat-Bogey Hex.



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 4:18 am (#608 of 1825)
The way I still see it is that Draco is going to learn alot of Dark Arts over the summer from "Mommy Dearest". His dad's in jail, he just got slammed on the train by people who he thought was "beneath him", and he's an angry little boy.

Over on DA thread, it's been mentioned that more than likely he will start his own army of Death Nibblers.

I can see the battle between DA and the DNs as Harry takes out Draco, Hermione/Pansy, Ron/Crabbe or Goyle, Neville/Goyle or Crabbe, Ginny and the rest/rest of DNs.

Or, I could be completely wrong and Draco comes over to the good side.......

DripPan



TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 4:51 am (#609 of 1825)
I posted this earlier in the thread. I don't believe we will ever see Draco's redemption. Draco is Harry's character foil.

Harry muggle-born/Draco pure-blood.

Harry gets on to team by talent/Draco buys his way on.

Harry has real friends/Draco has side-kicks.

Harry is trying to do the right thing/Draco thinks evil is cool.

Pick any trait that Harry has and you find that Draco has the opposite, or got to the same place in a different way or for a different reason.

I think we will see enough of Draco in every book to be able to make the important comparisons. Compare how the two related to Umbridge in OP. I find it very interesting how they related to Snape in OP (the scene when Draco interrupts the Occlumens lesson comes to mind).



Prefect Marcus - Aug 1, 2004 10:07 am (#610 of 1825)
No, I don't see Draco having the commitment necessary to (a) learn tons of Dark Arts from Mummy dearest over the Summer, and (b) form his own "Death Nibblers" squad. He is simply too much of a Loser.

Of course, things can change. He did manage to actually hold on to a desire for revenge on Harry for a whole week. That must be a record for him. If things improve, he might actually be able to stick to something for a whole month.



Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2004 12:09 pm (#611 of 1825)
Of course, things can change. He did manage to actually hold on to a desire for revenge on Harry for a whole week. That must be a record for him. If things improve, he might actually be able to stick to something for a whole month.

The difference now is that Draco doesn't have his father's power and influence. He was already ticked off at Harry for the article in The Quibbler, but now that Lucius is in Azkaban, everything Draco once held dear is gone, except the family's money. Money won't do much to influence the rest of Hogwarts when someone has a Death Eater for a father.

Draco is going to try his best to avenge the family. I'm not sure if actually become a Death Eater, but even if he doesn't, he's going to be dangerous. I don't see him in a direct confrontation with the six from the Department of Mysteries battle, but I do see him sneaking around and trying to hex them into oblivion when their backs are turned.

I'm wondering if Draco will pay a visit to Knockturn Alley and get the Hand of Glory from Borgin finally. Then he could sneak around Hogwarts quite easily.



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 12:26 pm (#612 of 1825)
I think it would be more likely for Draco to join the DA and try and bring it down internally--much like how he treats Hagrid's class--then to be a proactive student and actually start something on his own.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 1, 2004 1:06 pm (#613 of 1825)
I would be highly disappointed if Harry were to let any Slytherin in without making sure that their ambitions included fighting against Lord Voldemort. (Since he'll work hard on Potions, I think that means Veritaserum...)

In any case, do you really think that Draco will turn against his father's master?



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 1:36 pm (#614 of 1825)
Harry shouldn't discriminate against anyone wanting to join the DA, particularly the Slytherins. That goes with the whole "uniting" theme. You really don't know who's going to end up being your best ally. Help can come from the most unlikely sources.

The only way I see Draco going against Voldemort is if Draco sees Voldie kill Lucius--especially if it's an intentional act because Lucius screwed up. I don't see him siding with Harry, though. More of a stupid one-on-one duel that Draco would mistakenly think he'd win.



TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 2:42 pm (#615 of 1825)
The only way I see Draco going against Voldemort is if Draco sees [He Who Must Not Be Named] kill Lucius -- --- schoff

Draco would turn on his dad to gain power.



Robert Dierken - Aug 1, 2004 4:59 pm (#616 of 1825)
I think it would be amusing if Dudley finishes Draco with the old one-two.



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 5:14 pm (#617 of 1825)
TomProffitt: Draco would turn on his dad to gain power.

No, I don't think he would. That would assume he would initiate something on his own, and Draco has never been shown to be a pro-active type of person. He's a leader simply because others let him lead, not because he's done anything note-worthy to earn it. He definitely rides on Daddy's rep, not his own.

People give Draco power first, then see what he does with it. That's a far cry from someone who earns power by doing first, and gaining power from that.



Magika - Aug 1, 2004 5:16 pm (#618 of 1825)
"Harry shouldn't discriminate against anyone wanting to join the DA, particularly the Slytherins. That goes with the whole "uniting" theme. You really don't know who's going to end up being your best ally. Help can come from the most unlikely sources." - schoff

No, one shouldn't, but I think having a Slytherin join the DA would be very risky. They are not exactly known to be loyal. The sollution must be a way to check if everyone is being faithful. Something that kicks in before anyone can betray the DA.

But anyway, I can't see anyone of the Slytherins we have met this far join the DA. I'd like to see the day Goyle politely asks Harry how to do a Summoning charm, or Harry praising Draco for his excellent Stunning spell...

-Si-



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 5:21 pm (#619 of 1825)
Magika: No, one shouldn't, but I think having a Slytherin join the DA would be very risky. They are not exactly known to be loyal.

And evidently, neither are Ravenclaws (Marietta). Harry shouldn't discriminate against Slytherins just because they're Slytherins. Either standards are in place for all DA members, or there should be no standards. One group should not be singled out for discrimination. That's the whole point of the books.



Magika - Aug 1, 2004 5:29 pm (#620 of 1825)
Okey, schoff, you've got a point... but in addition to have a reputation of not being loyal, Slytherins are known to be mean. Do not misunderstand me, I don't mean that they should descriminate and refuse anyone to join. I'm just saying they should be careful about who they let join.

Bad apples exists everywhere... But admit it, Goyle in a DA meeting...?

-Si-



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 5:35 pm (#621 of 1825)
One of the funny things about the Sorting Hat is that it puts you in the house where you mostly fit.

Harry would have done well in any of the houses. Hermione in Ravenclaw for intelligence. Ron in Hufflepuff for Loyalty. They all put the hat on except Draco.

As mentioned in the book, the hat barely touched him and it shouted out Slytherin. This is telling me that no matter what, he is 100% Slytherin.

I'm sure there are other Slytherins who can fit well in the other houses. It just so happens their strong points are in line with Slytherins strong points. This doesn't mean they can't side with DD or Harry.

The prime example of this is Professor Snape. He was picked on by other students just "because he exists". He became a DE but something happened to turn this around.

I think the Sorting Hat told us alot about Draco right from the get go. As we've learned more and more about Salazar Slytherin, we can see why the Sorting Hat had no problem with him.

I've given up on Draco turning good because of this. The other Slytherins still have somewhat of a chance to prove themselves.

DripPan



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 5:37 pm (#622 of 1825)
Magika: But admit it, Goyle in a DA meeting...?

Hee. Goyle could be the "crash test dummy" so to speak!

Back to Draco, I just had another thought about his leadership skills: He's never been tested as a leader. Like I said, people just automatically give Draco power with little thought as to whether Draco can truly lead. I bet, if tested, his leadership would bring untold disaster to his followers.



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 5:44 pm (#623 of 1825)
"I just had another thought about his leadership skills: He's never been tested as a leader."

I'm sure he planned the ambush on the train. Oh, well, maybe he'll learn his lesson from this like Harry has to learn his lesson from the DoM fiasco.

DripPan



Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2004 8:07 pm (#624 of 1825)
Draco's leadership has been handed to him on a silver platter. His father was a governor of the school, his family is wealthy, and he thrives with his father's influence. That really has nothing to do with Draco himself.

What has Draco ever done to show that he's anything without daddy behind him?

I don't think Draco would hand Lucius over to anyone, though. I think he wants his father out of Azkaban and back in power, and the only way to do that is to make sure Voldemort succeeds.



TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 5:18 am (#625 of 1825)
But if He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named told him to snuff his dad, I bet he'd do it.

Which was, more or less, what I meant back in post # 615.



Magika - Aug 2, 2004 8:01 am (#626 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would have killed his dad, not now, anyway. Lucius is the one Draco looks up to, the one with the power. Draco is not yet ambitious enough to do such a thing. And why would Voldie (Dork Lard or whatever) want him to snuff his dad, when Draco spends 10 months a year in the same building as the great, famous Harry Potter?

-Si-



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 10:30 am (#627 of 1825)
I agree, Magika, especially about Draco being in the same building as Harry Potter. Voldie needs his Hogwarts spies, and especially ones who have personal vendettas.



TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 12:34 pm (#628 of 1825)
I wasn't intending to make a prediction of likely events. I was commenting on the way I perceive Draco's character. In CS Draco bemoans the fact that he is unable to help "The Heir of Slytherin" kill muggle-borns. He has no regard for life or justice.

Likely or not, if Draco could get a spot in the inner circle of the DE by killing his dad, I bet he would do it.



Kasse - Aug 2, 2004 12:42 pm (#629 of 1825)
IMO Draco's dad is his idol I can not see draco killing him for any reason, just my oppinion......



Paulus Maximus - Aug 2, 2004 12:52 pm (#630 of 1825)
Well, Voldemort might be Draco's idol, and Voldemort killed HIS dad...



strix - Aug 2, 2004 1:10 pm (#631 of 1825)
Ah, but Tom Riddle's Dad was a filthy muggle, and so on and so forth.

But then again, there have been suggestions that old Lucius isn't everything he pretends to be. Personally I think Draco is too weak to kill anyone. I'm convinced powerful magic (dark or light kind) takes a powerful wizard. While Draco may have the hatred for the Unforgivables, does he have the talent and the stamina?



zelmia - Aug 2, 2004 1:14 pm (#632 of 1825)
I think it's been made very clear up to now that Lucius is Draco's idol. Voldemort is still an abstract, third party concept to Draco, in spite of his father's having now been "outed" as being part of Voldemort's inner circle. Draco still has no intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the Death Eaters, only what his father has chosen to reveal to him, which may indeed be quite a bit. Still, Draco has not really experienced anything of the Death Eaters' "mission" in any direct way. Remember, he was not one of the students who could see the Thestrals. Draco is still living that life vicariously through his father, clinging to the glory of the Dark Lord and all he stands for because for him, again, it's all still very abstract.
This is where he most differs from Harry, and even Ron, Hermione and Neville, who were all present -- and participated in -- the Battle at the Ministry. I think the turn will come, if at all, once Draco becomes a direct part of that inner circle as opposed to just "Lucius's Son". Draco may find that, as others have indicated, he is too cowardly to proceed with what is asked of him. On the other hand, he may find it all that he always hoped it would be, but I don't think so. I think he might start to, not so much develop a conscience, but begin realise that "Hey, this isn't a game. This is REAL! And I could get killed just as easily as a lousy Mud-blood..."



Magika - Aug 2, 2004 4:24 pm (#633 of 1825)
I agree with you, Zelmia...

Voldemort is not personal to Draco. Not yet. He knows Voldemort through his father, he has not yet encountered him and felt his wrath. To me, Draco still seems to be unexsperienced in many ways. He hasn't seen anybody die, he probably hasn't lost any family members, and he hasn't yet met his father's master.

That's why I believe that if Voldemort gave Draco the opportunity to kill his dad and rice in the rank, I think he would decline. Lucius is what Draco holds on to. Without his father, Draco is no one. He's a nobody, like Mark Evans...

-Si-



drippan - Aug 2, 2004 5:02 pm (#634 of 1825)
Magicka, "Without his father, Draco is no one. He's a nobody"

I like that! I have to agree 100%!

DripPan



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 9:32 pm (#635 of 1825)
"Without his father, Draco is no one. He's a nobody" -- Magika.

I disagree. He's really a resourceful person. In fact, without his Dad, Malfoy would've been a much better person.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 2, 2004 11:29 pm (#636 of 1825)
"In fact, without his Dad, Malfoy would've been a much better person."

We shall see, now that he is without his dad.

Anyway, Draco might become the next Crouch Jr for all we know. Both Lucius and Crouch Sr had quite a bit of influence in the Ministry, and lost it...



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 1:23 am (#637 of 1825)
Well, Tornedo, maybe he would. I guess we'll have to see what happens... The problem now is that Draco doesn't know of a life without his father, he's not independent. Resourceful or not, he's been living off his father's reputation for all his Hogwarts life.

I'm looking forwards to see how he developes.

-Si-



Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 2:08 am (#638 of 1825)
He'll do alright Magika. Don't worry about that. He's a Slytherin.



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 2:12 am (#639 of 1825)
LOL! I won't worry then. I'm sure he'll be okay... by what standards I cannot tell, but he'll be okay.

Smile

-Si-



Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 2:22 am (#640 of 1825)
At least he won't look like a slug, the next time we see him.



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 3:06 am (#641 of 1825)
Lets hope not...



timrew - Aug 3, 2004 4:49 pm (#642 of 1825)
He might not look like a slug; but I'm sure he'll still be acting like one.



Magika - Aug 4, 2004 12:32 am (#643 of 1825)
I totally agree with you there, Timrew... Draco'll always be a slug, jinxed or not Razz



Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 1:04 am (#644 of 1825)
I think he'll always be a "twitchy little ferret". I really loved that remark by Hermione.



Magika - Aug 4, 2004 3:19 am (#645 of 1825)
So let's call him a twitchy little slug, too Razz



therealscabbers - Aug 4, 2004 4:53 am (#646 of 1825)
or twitchey little ferrety slug!



riddikulus - Aug 29, 2004 3:48 pm (#647 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 29, 2004 3:48 pm
In PoA, the Buckbeak scene, after he hurts Draco; Draco says "he's killed me" re: buckbeak. Of course, originally I just assumed that Draco is a git, over exaggerating and being dramatic... but what if this is really some kind of foreshadowing? He doesn't say, it's killing me, or this is killing me, or he's hurt me, even... but, he's killed me.



Hermy-own - Aug 29, 2004 3:51 pm (#648 of 1825)
Foreshadowing, eh? I like it. Would be nothing less than Malfoy deserves. Get him, Buckbeak!



Phoenix song - Aug 29, 2004 4:32 pm (#649 of 1825)
Now wouldn't that be a nice little bit of karma coming back to get Draco? Buckbeak returning in the final battle to trample Draco! Or maybe Draco will transform into his future animagi form (white ferret, of course) in order to spy on the Order. Buckbeak will just unknowingly have him for lunch...literally. Gee, this topic is bringing out my savage side.



riddikulus - Aug 29, 2004 4:50 pm (#650 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 29, 2004 4:50 pm
lol Phoenix, I won't say I didn't smile at your comment (cause I did). That's my thinking. Malfoy being the ferret, great foreshadowing, Malfoy saying, he's killed me, great foreshadowing. He's gonna get his, in the end. I'm not so sure, though, that it'll be Buckbeak doing the killing... I think it's a set up with his demise being the conclusion , though.

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 651 to 700

Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 8:10 am

Julia. - Aug 29, 2004 5:18 pm (#651 of 1825)
Riddikulus, I love your idea! JKR is excellent at foreshadowing, and I wouldn't put it past her. Also, I know it's not canon, but did any one catch the wonderful line in the PoA movie "Come on Buckbeak, come eat the nice dead ferret."



Paulus Maximus - Aug 29, 2004 5:21 pm (#652 of 1825)
I did.

And I thought exactly the same thing...



riddikulus - Aug 29, 2004 6:36 pm (#653 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 29, 2004 6:37 pm
Thanks Julia Smile Yes, I do remember, it was when Hermione was trying to persuade Beaky to leave the pumpkin patch with Harry. I didn't think of the little ferret, I mean Malfoy, just then... but I do now.



els - Aug 30, 2004 11:57 am (#654 of 1825)
There is a point in PoA where Buckbeak is eating a ferret. I don't have the book with me, but HRH comes to visit Hagrid and Buckbeak is munching on ferret. I think it's when they find out Buckbeak will be executed. Also, later in PoA, after HH have rescued Buckbeak and they are waiting in the edge of the Forbidden Forest, Buckbeak is "ferretting" around for worms in the ground.



Magika - Sep 2, 2004 12:32 pm (#655 of 1825)
Might be a clue, but somehow, I don't think Draco is going to die, and if he is, I don't think JKR would have hinted it in this way. it's too... simple. And after all, he was a ferret for a really short time (although forever in my mind Wink), and it has not been mentioned since (unless I'm very mistaken).

I think we'll have to see what'll happen to Daddy Malfoy to know which way Draco will bicker. Somehow, I can't really see him as a DE! He's too... innocent.

And people! Let's get this thread up and going! Draco is the guy we love to hate, for cryin' out loud! ;D



Hermy-own - Sep 2, 2004 2:49 pm (#656 of 1825)
He's too... innocent.

Who? *looks around*
Draco? May I refresh your memory:

"No one asked your opinion, you filthy little mudblood,"
-- Draco Malfoy, CoS

Hehe. OK, no more joking around.

On a more sirius note, Magika, I'm guessing you were implying that Draco has been misguided by his parents? Yes, I would agree. Lucious and Narcissa (though we don't know much about her) are the root cause of Draco's hatred towards half-bloods and muggles.

"Somehow, I can't really see him as a DE!"

Just like Umbridge then? An evil character but not a death eater, is that what you mean? Or perhaps you are suggesting some sort of redemption for Draco? The type that some forum members have been predicting for Pansy?



TomProffitt - Sep 2, 2004 8:36 pm (#657 of 1825)
"He's too... innocent. " --- Magika

Were you looking for the word "naive?"

I think that is a better way to describe Draco. I don't think he fully understands all that Lord Voldemort is about.

Also, Draco's father is a key lieutenant of the Dark Lord. Should Draco join he would be just another pawn, and that, I am sure, Draco has never considered.



scully jones - Sep 2, 2004 9:22 pm (#658 of 1825)
Judging from how JKR talks about Draco, I'm more likely to believe that he could become a Death Eater. I compare it to how she talks about Dudley, who seems redeemable in her eyes. She feels sorry for him. But, when she talks about Draco, she seems to truly dislike him.

Therefore, I believe he will truly become a Death Eater.



True Love - Sep 3, 2004 4:44 am (#659 of 1825)
I agree, JKR really doesn't like Draco. He is the cowardly bully we have all come across in school. She is letting kids know that there will always be bullies and they really don't count. I don't think he will be a DE as he is too weak to be one. It is too bad the actor is so good looking. JKR is always alarmed when people try to pair Draco with any of the female leads. Hermione or Ginny with Draco? She says she can see them with Tom Felton because he is so nice but never Draco (who will never be nice).



Magika - Sep 3, 2004 3:50 pm (#660 of 1825)
Tom, yes, naive was exactly the word I was looking for. It fits much better than 'innocent' (what was I thinking...)

And Hermy-own, Draco is truely EVIL (spelled in large letters on purpose). But I don't think he understands what being a servant of Lord Voldemort contains. Lucius has probably told him nothing but sunny stories... Wink I think Draco's evil is nothing more than his father's meanings and hatred that has rubbed off on him. Draco is too used to being held high by his parents (IMO), I don't think he would handle being bent to his knees and forced to obey the Dork Lard. He thinks too highly of himself.

Like someone said (too long since I read the books, and I don't have the energy to go and get them to check right now) "The world doesn't consist of good people and Death Eaters".



Weeny Owl - Sep 3, 2004 9:50 pm (#661 of 1825)
Like someone said (too long since I read the books, and I don't have the energy to go and get them to check right now) "The world doesn't consist of good people and Death Eaters".

Sirius said that during a discussion of Umbridge.

I do think Draco has what it takes to parcitipate in the "fun" part of being a Death Eater because he likes tormenting people, but I agree that he has no idea what would be expected of him if he were to become one.

It's one thing to strut around Hogwarts deducting points and handing out detentions, but it's quite another when you're the target of Voldemort's wrath. I can't imagine Draco being quite so gung-ho if he were to dissapoint Voldemort and be Crucioed. He would probably try to get out of it and end up dead just the way Regulus did.



therealscabbers - Sep 4, 2004 5:37 am (#662 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, just as I was reading these last few comments I was thinking just what you wrote, I too think Draco will be a latter day Regulus. He never knew the Dark Lord in his power because he also was only 1 when he went awol, so all he has are the romantasised stories from his parents and their friends, of the "good old days" when somthing was being done to rid the world of mudbloods and muggles. Now voldie is back he will think it will be just like the "good old days" he has heard about his whole life and want to be involved. Only as has been said his naiivity will be shattered and he will want out - but as Sirius said and regulus found out you dont hand your resignation in to the Dark Lord!

But who knows maybe Harry will be there to sve him (or even better Hermione!, hmmm saved by a mudblood, the irony!)



Weeny Owl - Sep 4, 2004 9:50 am (#663 of 1825)
But who knows maybe Harry will be there to sve him (or even better Hermione!, hmmm saved by a mudblood, the irony!)

I would absolutely love that! It would definitely serve him right if he ended up owing Hermione.

I like what you said about "the good old days" because that's something that happens quite a bit in real life. When people get together to talk about their victories, frequently they exaggerate or leave out the negative aspects.



Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 6:58 am (#664 of 1825)
Though Draco's talked about murder more than once--of Hermione, specifically, that I remember off the top of my head--and I wonder if someone as cruel and domineering as Lucius would raise his child with just sweetness and light. Rule #1 on dealing with a threat: don't underestimate it. Voldemort has underestimated Harry every single time so far. We've never really seen how proficient Draco is or isn't with magic. He's pompous and not quite as clever as he thinks he is, but flaws like those don't make him a total pushover, either. I think he's got what it takes to join the ranks of Death Eaters, in time. We've seen already how he deals with pain and humiliation: he just finds a target to take it out on. He may never get the chance, though, if Voldemort doesn't get too far with his war. But I think Malfoy has the perfect temperament. Since I've seen discussed many parallels between Voldemort's clique and Nazis before, I hope I'm not appearing racist in saying, doesn't Malfoy's blond hair and blue eyes--both pale--suggest a weakened version of an Aryan supremacist? I say among the ranks of cruel wizard bigots is where Draco belongs, and he knows it.



Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 19, 2004 12:26 am (#665 of 1825)
I wouldn't put it past draco to pick up some serious dark magic in book 6 now that his favorite Auntie is out of prison. although I wouldn't put it passed Bellatrix to Smack draco around or feed her nephew to a basilisk if it furthered voldemorts plans



Hermy-own - Sep 19, 2004 2:03 am (#666 of 1825)
"..or feed her nephew to a basilisk.."

I don't know...I see Draco more as Hippogriff fodder.



constant vigilance - Sep 19, 2004 7:05 am (#667 of 1825)
Draco strikes me as generally sadistic. When the kids were in Umbridge's office and Hermione was "confessing" about Dumbledore's weapon, Draco "was too slow to disguise the look of eagerness and greed that had appeared on his face." This is only one out of a number of incidents where Draco has expressed excitement at the prospect of other people suffering. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the little ferret picks up some Dark Magic from his auntie. And I think that as cold as Bellatrix is, she is also vain and I think she would rather enjoy having someone licking her feet as she does to her Master.



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 11:53 am (#668 of 1825)
I'm not so sure the ferret needs Bella to pick up Dark Magic because we haven't learned anything about Narcissa yet. She could just as easily be a Death Eater as Bella and Lucius, but with a demeanor more like Lucius than Bella. While I absolutely abhor Lucius, at least he has more control than Bella, and I can picture Narcissa like that.

Between Lucius, Narcissa, Bella, and whatever other Death Eaters Draco might have been around through the years, I'm sure he's picked up quite a few nasty things he'd love to use on the trio.



Doris Crockford - Sep 19, 2004 2:23 pm (#669 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, the question you brought to mind is: if Draco knows "Quite a few nasty things he'd love to use on the trio", why hasn't he used any? He's had plenty of chances without teachers, on the Hogwarts Express(although he didn't get a chance to cast any spells), in the Forbidden Forest in PS (but he might have been too bad at magic to use it in first year). He also tried to curse Harry twice in GOF (the time he hit Hermione and the time he got turned into a ferret). And I'm pretty sure that Umbridge wouldn't have minded if Draco did evil things to Harry - if Harry had tried to complain, no one would have believed him anyway.



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 2:52 pm (#670 of 1825)
Until his father was put in Azkaban there was no reason to get into something that could get him in serious trouble, and while he never cared for Harry and tried to curse him on occasion, now he wants revenge. None of this is fact, of course, but I can't believe that Lucius hasn't taught Draco a lot of dark magic... at least a lot for someone his age.



Doris Crockford - Sep 19, 2004 3:05 pm (#671 of 1825)
I do agree that Draco knew a lot more Dark Magic than most others in his year (like Snape did), and probably learned a lot from Lucius. But I think that Draco really hates Harry and would have cursed him if he had the chance. However, I admit that Draco doesn't really give himself the chance. He tends to spend way too much time insulting Harry, and often doesn't get the chance to curse Harry before Harry or one of Harry's friends jinxes him. Until he wises up about this, he probably won't get the chance to get revenge on Harry, whose magical ability is a lot better and who is a lot faster at getting his wand out.



constant vigilance - Sep 19, 2004 3:23 pm (#672 of 1825)
Draco is not too shabby at Charms. Remember the anti-Harry pins from GoF? Granted that is not necessarily Dark Magic, but it does show that Draco is a capable wizard when he applies himself. It seems to me that he is a lot like Harry and Ron in that respect--their classwork is sometimes successful, and other times could use improvement, but when the motivation comes from within they are capable of much more. It's just a matter of wanting a spell to be as good as it can be.

And Weeny, I agree that he doesn't necessarily need Bellatrix to learn Dark Magic. I was just suggesting that she might enjoy having a little fan to boost her already inflated ego. As far as Narcissa goes, I have no idea how much Dark Magic she practices, but there is little doubt in my mind that she is opposed to it. After all, she is the wife of Lucius, and just as responsible as he was for the mistreatment of Dobby. Also, Kreacher went to the Malfoys when he disappeared because she was the last remaining Black he felt any respect for (Bellatrix was still in Azkaban at the time). It was Narcissa, and not Lucius, who provided the DE's with information from Kreacher.



Doris Crockford - Sep 19, 2004 3:29 pm (#673 of 1825)
Constant Vigilance, does it actually say that Draco makes the badges? He is the one handing them out, but he is often the leader of the Slytherins. He might have gotten another student to make them, maybe an older student. Then Malfoy could have only been passing the badges on to the other Slytherins in his year. (of course, there's now going to be a quote in the books that proves me wrong, but I've gotten used to that .)



constant vigilance - Sep 19, 2004 3:39 pm (#674 of 1825)
Doris, that is entirely possible. But I was trying to give the little ferret the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes Draco is all too easy to dismiss, simply because he is so despicable, and on occasion he does deserve to be given credit for his achievements. Then again, his Charms O.W.L. did not go too well--the wine glass he was levitating smashed to the floor when Harry came in for his examination. This could, of course, have been the result of Draco being so easily distracted by Harry. Guess the little ferret needs to learn some self-control.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 7:04 pm (#675 of 1825)
"Guess the little ferret needs to learn some self-control."

Methinks Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr, taught him a little self control as far as trying to hex someone when their back was turned. ie: the amazing bouncing ferret!



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 8:42 pm (#676 of 1825)
constant, you make excellent points about Narcissa, and I can well imagine Bella shrieking with joy over having someone to instruct.

As for the badges, there's no way of knowing who charmed them, but I wouldn't put it past the ferret to have someone else do it so he could take the credit for it.



therealscabbers - Sep 20, 2004 3:29 am (#677 of 1825)
Twinkling, good on you for pointing out what preceded the bouncing ferret incident, as we never heard the incantation and the shot missed Harry we dont know what curse Draco was aiming on Harry at the time, but this could have been dark magic, also setting the snake on Harry at the dueling club could also be classed as dark, snakes being what they are in the WW. I know Snape whispered this in his ear but Draco knew how to do it, I believe Snape was just making a suggestion of what to do. So generally I think Draco has shown is knowledge of the dark arts to a small extent and has been foiled in his attempts to use more by Harry and Co's quick thinking as several have said

just my 2 knuts



Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 20, 2004 1:44 pm (#678 of 1825)
If Narcissa doesn't teach Draco the good stuff over the summer (I.E. one if not all of the unforgivable curses) Bella will definatly love to teach him if he asks her to (everyone needs a good boot licker; even her); plus Voldemort can make good use of Draco to spy on Dumbledore and Harry during the school year (well not so much harry since Big V has a direct link to harry's brain)



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 20, 2004 1:51 pm (#679 of 1825)
If JKR answers the OPEN LETTER TO HER, we will know what core has Draco's wand.

It is the moment, before the reply, of do BETS! Smile What do you think that it could contain?

Maybe a dragon's sharp? the fang of a snake?

Really, i think that JKR doesn't have this detail in his notebooks. She will invent for us! ^^



Phoenix song - Sep 20, 2004 5:39 pm (#680 of 1825)
I think that Draco's wand contains a core of ferret fur.

Barbie



rambkowalczyk - Sep 22, 2004 12:18 pm (#681 of 1825)
Ironic as this might sound, I think Draco will have the same core as Lily because he is good at curses. Curses are negative charms. I'll admit he isn't an innocent like Lily and Cedric was but I think something is going to happen to him.(I know many will say well deserved)



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 23, 2004 7:44 am (#682 of 1825)
As single child, Draco should be: Draco Lucius Malfoy.



zelmia - Sep 23, 2004 8:56 pm (#683 of 1825)
A good guess, Cronista. I'd go along with that.



wolfgrl - Sep 24, 2004 8:16 am (#684 of 1825)
I could have imagined this but I think at the beginning of CoS (movie) in the book store Lucius calls Draco by a different name. I just watched the movie last night. Maybe that is his middle name. I will have to check it out tonight when I get home. Or if someone else can check more quickly than me. It is when Lucius interrupts Draco talking to Harry and company. But like I said I could have imagined it.



haymoni - Sep 24, 2004 8:20 am (#685 of 1825)
"Play nicely, Draco." is what I remember after Lucius knocks Draco's collar bone with the cane.



therealscabbers - Sep 24, 2004 8:58 am (#686 of 1825)
yep defiantely "play nicley Draco" Might be the accent that is befuddling you wolfgirl



wolfgrl - Sep 24, 2004 10:32 am (#687 of 1825)
Like I said I could have imagined it. :-) So Apparently I did.



Steve Newton - Oct 13, 2004 6:35 am (#688 of 1825)
I was convinced that Draco would be one of the first to go if Lord V comes back into power. It seems that everything that he hears from his father he immediately blabs to Harry. (The dog comment in OOTP, for instance). Just recently it occurred to me that all of this information was useful to the trio. Are the Malfoy's hedging their bets? If Lord V wins then there are known supporters. If he loses than they can point out how much information they have been giving the good guys. Phineas Nigellus would then be very proud of them.



Tessa's Dad - Oct 13, 2004 6:54 am (#689 of 1825)
Would Lucius sacrifice poor little Draco? If Draco were passing information to the good guys, would his dear old daddy come to his aid if LV found out? I’m not implying that Draco is giving Harry information to help the good guys win. I’m looking at this from the angle of, “Loose Lips Sink Ships.” I don’t even see this as a reversed Ludo Bagman situation. Draco is giving the trio information that he believes is causing them harm. He wants them to understand how important he is when he tells them of Sirius being spotted at Platform 9 ¾. He wants them to know that he has some inside information.

His need to feel important could be his down fall.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 13, 2004 8:05 am (#690 of 1825)
I don't know if Lucius would sacrifice Draco if Lord Voldemort found out about draco's big mouth but I know his Aunt Bellatrix would feed him to voldemort in a heart beat



Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2004 9:14 am (#691 of 1825)
If he loses than they can point out how much information they have been giving the good guys.

What information, though? Draco indicated in a totally Slytherin way that he knew Sirius was in London. That isn't information he's giving the good guys in order to help defeat Voldemort.

He also indicated during a Care of Magicial Creatures class that he knew what Hagrid was up to. Again, that isn't information that will help the good guys.

What Tessa's Dad said about Draco trying to impress/annoy/frighten the trio by how much he knows sounds much more like ferret face.



Tessa's Dad - Oct 13, 2004 9:33 am (#692 of 1825)
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 9:48 am
I was thinking about Draco telling the trio about spotting Snuffles on the platform. The trio used that information to keep Sirius in hiding. If Draco had kept his mouth shut, Sirius would have felt free to wonder around and possibly be caught by the DE.

The DEs knew about Sirius’s disguise, but the Order didn’t know that the DE knew. Sirius would be free to use his disguise to help the order. The Death Eaters could set a trap around Hogsmead to catch Snuffles. Sirius’s capture would be possible if Draco had kept his mouth shut.

If I was LV, Bella, or even Lucius and I knew that Draco had ruined the possibility of catching Sirius, He’d understand the effects of a Cruciatus Curse.



Steve Newton - Oct 13, 2004 9:34 am (#693 of 1825)
Weeny, but it was information letting them know that Sirius should go into hiding. Deep hiding.



Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2004 10:10 am (#694 of 1825)
Sirius already knew he had to hide, though. He chose not to, even though Molly reminded him of what Dumbledore had said.

I don't think Voldemort or the Death Eaters would have wanted Sirius to be captured because of Bella's comment that the Ministry was targeted on him and ignoring everything else. If Sirius had been captured or killed, they wouldn't have anyone else to focus suspicion on.

Draco just liked having some salt to rub into Harry's wounds. He liked thinking he had power over Harry. Hermione was right about not letting Draco know that they were worried about Hagrid. Draco is just a sadistic little snot, but he's a big-mouthed snot. If he isn't careful, he's going to cause problems with Voldemort and probably end up dead.



schoff - Oct 13, 2004 10:37 am (#695 of 1825)
There are no redeeming qualities about Draco, and yes, he does have a big mouth. However, Lucius' is bigger for telling his son the information in the first place.



Steve Newton - Oct 13, 2004 10:40 am (#696 of 1825)
I'm not sure whether Lucius has a big mouth or he is plantng information. He seems to be pretty cool in a pinch.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 13, 2004 7:51 pm (#697 of 1825)
Lucius is definatly cool in a pinch; it is his sister in law Bellatrix who thinks the answer to everything is the crusio curse. Narcissa is probably a female version of Lucius but with more of a snobbish attitude. Also knowing draco he doesn't associate with his half blood cousin Nymphordia.



zelmia - Oct 13, 2004 10:04 pm (#698 of 1825)
I brought up the idea long ago, and have posted several times since, that I believe Lucius will indeed end up handing over Draco to the Death Eaters. Back then most people thought it was an odd prediction to make, Lucius turning on his only child. But I am happy to see that others have drawn that same conclusion. Lucius is, in the words of Jason Isaacs, "a VERY dark character."
Draco doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. He is bound to get himself busted at some point, unless he learns to follow his father's advice from CS and "keep [his] head down and let the heir of Slytherin get on with it."



therealscabbers - Oct 14, 2004 8:28 am (#699 of 1825)
The order and sirius both knew the DE's knew about him being an animagus as it was obvious that Wormtail would have told them, Sirius said as much at some point in one of the books!



Orpheus - Oct 14, 2004 2:52 pm (#700 of 1825)
You talk about Draco Malfoy as if he is the only evil being in the whole of Harry Potter. When you read between the lines you can see that James Potter and Sirius Black where nothing but trouble. I read some where on this site that they where always in detention, hardly models for good characters. I agree that Draco Malfoy is a bully but when you look at the way he has been brought up. An only child, never had to share. Never had any true affection from his parents. The Malfoy's remind me of a dying breed of Victorian families. My great grandfather was a headmaster of a public boys school. I read that they thought nothing of using the strap, the cane, public humiliation and army drill on the young boys in their care. I think we have to give Draco, perhaps no dare I say a little sympathy that he is what he is because of his family upbringing and that he could change. Perhaps the idea of his father being in Azkaban or the idea that his Mother is now in charge of the running of the Malfoy Estate will influence Draco in a particular way.

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 701 to 750

Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 8:24 am

Paulus Maximus - Oct 14, 2004 4:24 pm (#701 of 1825)
"Perhaps the idea of his father being in Azkaban or the idea that his Mother is now in charge of the running of the Malfoy Estate will influence Draco in a particular way."

So it has. Draco now wants Harry dead as a reasult of it.



Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 9:32 pm (#702 of 1825)
I don't think you can say that because James & Sirius spent a fair amount of time in detention that that meant they didn't have good characters, I think it means that they where very mischievous teenage boys, yes there where times where they could be complete snots ie: the tormenting if Snape, but as we heard Sirius say, Snape didn't miss an opportunity to give as good as he got. So I think they were pretty normal teen boys really.

As for Draco, he has shown from the beginning that he is an obnoxious little snot, yes that would come from his up bringing, but there is a difference between mischievous/cheeky and rotten to the core.



TomProffitt - Oct 14, 2004 10:41 pm (#703 of 1825)
Zelmia, I don't know that I agree that Lucius will turn Draco into to the Death Eaters for punishment, but I certainly agree that he is capable of it.



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 12:27 am (#704 of 1825)
I think we have to give Draco, perhaps no dare I say a little sympathy that he is what he is because of his family upbringing and that he could change.

It's true that anyone has the ability to change; however, while Draco may be a product of his environment, he still has to make the choice.

As for sympathy, I can look at pictures of Hitler Youth and think how different they could have been had they had a better upbringing, but after a certain age and with the same type of behavior or worse, they won't get any sympathy from me. The young child who was just forming, yes, but the adolescent who wants people to die, no.

Probably any character in these books could be redeemed, except Voldemort since JKR needs her main bad guy, but at the age of twelve, Draco wanted Hermione to die. He's threatened to kill Harry because Lucius is a fool of a Death Eater who got caught.

Draco and Dudley could be switched and no one would know the difference except for their appearance and the magic element. I can feel a modicum of sympathy for Dudley for the parents he has, yet he is still the same person who beats up a ten-year-old kid, so he really doesn't deserve sympathy that much.

Draco is going to be sixteen, and his behavior can't be blamed on his parents forever. If he can't stop being a repulsive, spoiled, arrogant, pretentious, prejudiced, bullying, self-absorbed snot, he'll deserve anything nasty that happens to him.

Have sympathy for his victims instead.



therealscabbers - Oct 15, 2004 2:00 am (#705 of 1825)
thats just it though isn't it weeny owl, as yet he has not victims, he is all talk and no wand!! he has threatened and wished but he hasnt actually done anything admittedly there is a big YET on the end of that statement but still. I also know he has tried but surely the fact that he has not succeed shows something too - we also do not know what curses he was planning to through on the instances he has tried but I still say he is all talk



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 2:08 am (#706 of 1825)
He has had victims. Perhaps they haven't been hexed into oblivion, but they're victims nevertheless.

Words can hurt, and he's inflicted quite a bit of damage with his big mouth. Up until the end of OotP, he might have been fairly content to stick to using words, but now he'll be out for blood.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 6:00 am (#707 of 1825)
Draco bullied Neville from day one at Hogwarts.

He tried to steal Neville's Remembrall, jinxed him physically, and he frightened him in the Forbidden Forest.

That was just starting at age 11. I don't think Draco has improved much, and unlike Petra, I don't think that Draco is "all talk."



Steve Newton - Oct 15, 2004 6:19 am (#708 of 1825)
People seem somewhat forgiving of characters, Draco and Marietta usually, by blaming their actions on their upbringing or family pressures. Somehow this seems to go against the choices theme that is running through the books. No matter the upbringing or pressures they are still making the wrong choices, whether it be bullying or betraying, and they are responsible for their decisions.



Albus-Dumbledore - Oct 16, 2004 4:40 am (#709 of 1825)
I totally agree with all those people who think that Draco is a good for nothhing character.Mistakes can be forgiven but blunders cannot be.He is 16 and knows much about good and evil to be forgiven. Remember Sirius was from a worse family but he turned out to be allright and he even died fighting for the good.



Czarina II - Oct 16, 2004 6:33 am (#710 of 1825)
Family can be a strong influence, though, especially when one is an only child like Draco. Perhaps Marietta is a real mommy's girl. Just because some characters (like Sirius) break the mold doesn't mean all of them can or do. Sirius is an exception. Of all the Weasleys, only Percy turned against his family.



Steve Newton - Oct 16, 2004 6:41 am (#711 of 1825)
I'm sure that family is a strong influence and that Marietta is a real Mommy's girl. These are still just excuses. They made their choices and they are still responsible for them.



Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2004 6:54 am (#712 of 1825)
It isn't really a matter of families and their belief system but of personal responsibility.

In OotP after Draco is made a member of the Inquisitorial Squad, he deducts points from Ernie Macmillan for contradicting him. Ernie is a pureblood wizard who, as far as we know, hasn't clashed with Draco before.

Draco was deducting points because he's a bully. Regardless of how he was brought up, by the age of fifteen he's shown that he is as thirsty for power as his father. Yes, there are definite parental influences, but he is old enough to know right from wrong and to take responsibility for what he does. We can blame Draco's bullying on his upbringing, but he is still a bully regardless.

I can feel sympathy for Draco and Dudley for having such rotten parents, but they are individuals with their own personalities, and their actions are things they've chosen to do.

Perhaps Draco and Dudley (and many others) are victims of their parents. They were once innocent babies, but so were Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Adolph Hitler, the Menendez brothers, Joseph Stalin, and on and on and on.

Draco is old enough to realize his actions are wrong. He chooses to continue with them, so he will never get any sympathy from me until he stops being what he is and repents.



Steve Newton - Oct 16, 2004 7:21 am (#713 of 1825)
I'm not sure how important Draco will be to the rest of the books. Unless he gets tougher fast he seems to be more of an irritant that a foe. Harry is playing with the big kids now and Draco isn't. So far.



I Am Used Vlad - Oct 16, 2004 7:16 pm (#714 of 1825)
Draco was the first classmate that Harry met. JKR made a point to set up his rivalry with Harry early in the series. His father is a prominent Death Eater whose incarceration he blames on Harry. I think Draco will play an important role in the last two books, although I'll admit that, as of OotP, he isn't playing "with the big kids" the way Harry is.



MickeyCee3948 - Oct 16, 2004 8:19 pm (#715 of 1825)
I think in the end Draco will fall at the hands of Voldemort or Bella as I think that at some point he will fall short of expectations and considering the crowd he is running with that will be unacceptable conduct. I don't really believe that Draco realize what he is getting himself into. He is a little snot who has always been in the background. At the World Cup he is in the forest with the rest of the children. He shows he is a petty thief and a cheat in CoS and he's wouldn't take on anyone(even Neville)in a fair fight.

Mikie



legolas - Oct 17, 2004 5:24 am (#716 of 1825)
I have been thinking about Draco for a was and what his future will be.

He was very upset at Harry -"I am going to make you pay for what you have done to my father....."

He tried to attack Harry at school but he got disturbed by teachers. On the train back from school he got attacked by the DA.

So far he has been all talk and no action. Will his anger drive him to do something? Could he think that Harry is to well protected at school and with friends? This could suggest that he might try and attack him at home.

Would he risk expulsion from school e.g do something between OOP and HBP or would he wait till between HBP and book 7? Would he hope to bribe someone in the ministry to look the other way if he is underage? Would he actually put words into action?

What would Voldemorte think? Would he want to try and kill Harry himself? Would he attack Draco? I dont think Harrys protection at home will extend to DE sons. He would be doing the attacking for his family and indirectly it would help Voldy. He probably wouldnt attack him on his own.

I am not sure that Draco would go to such and extent and attack him at home but I could see him ambushing Harry in Hogsmeede. He could cause a diversion that would separte him from friends. Hogsmeede is all magical so I could potentially see them being allowed to do magic or at least the underage magic not registering.



Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 17, 2004 9:20 pm (#717 of 1825)
I think Draco will play a larger part in the final two books then he did in OoTP, I don't think that he will attempt to ambush Harry at home, as I think he would of heard about the protection that surrounds Harry while his there. I don't believe that protection only works when Harry is being threatened by the Big V, I think it works whenever Harrys life is put in danger.

But i do believe that Draco will attempt to do something quite horrible, but rather than be punished by the DE's he will be rewarded for joining the fight against Potter & Dumbledore.



CrazyMom - Oct 18, 2004 3:09 am (#718 of 1825)
Since Draco has Harry in classes at Hogwarts, it could be theorized that Voldie might possess Draco, or at the least, control Draco enough so that with the Malfoys dark arts toys (ie: hand of glory) and other unknown items, Draco can run amok in Hogwarts gathering bits of information for Voldie. Having a loyal DE's son who hates Harry Potter, and has access to Harry, inside Hogwarts, would be too tempting for Voldie not to pass up methtinks. Draco has been squaring off against Harry since book one. I predict a big, ugly fight between the two of them before the series is over.



Julie Aronson - Oct 29, 2004 1:44 pm (#719 of 1825)
I know this was discussed days ago, but isn't it possible that Lucius never told Draco anything? I think the sneaky little bugger specializes in listening at doors. That would explain why much of his information is flawed or incomplete. Then of course, he sometimes just blatantly lies...like when he bragged about Griselda Marchbanks being a close friend of his family, when in fact, she spends much of her time with Neville's grandmother.

Julie



StareyedSlytherin - Oct 29, 2004 2:52 pm (#720 of 1825)
This is true. I personally don't see Draco as being the type to get his inside information in any more honest way.



zelmia - Oct 29, 2004 9:52 pm (#721 of 1825)
I disagree. I think Lucius tells Draco - or at least he did - a great deal. Draco is being groomed to go into the Family Business, if you will. Sure there are probably some instances when Draco is sent out of the room. But I think for the most part Draco is probably included in a lot of things.
In CS Draco shows Crabbe/Ron and Goyle/Harry a newspaper article his father sent to him (about the inquiry of the Flying Ford Anglia). Since the only reason for doing this is because the article is about Arthur Weasley, it is clear that Lucius is quite up front about his rivalry with Arthur. Lucius also advises Draco openly about the Chamber of Secrets to "keep your head down and let the heir of Slytherin get on with it." Draco accompanies his father to Borgin and Burke's to sell off some of the Dark items his father owns; so clearly it is no secret what his father gets up to.
In GF Draco taunts Harry, et al about torturing the muggles. While he is not an active participant, he is fully aware of what is going on and who is doing what.

The point is that Draco does seem to be fully apprised of all that goes on with his dad and his dad's "associates". While he may not be allowed to become an active participant - yet - he will surely do so in the coming episodes of the saga, just as Harry and his friends have fought for - and won - their right to participate in the OP.



legolas - Oct 31, 2004 2:42 am (#722 of 1825)
The title of CHapter 6 is Dracos detour. I have posted on the JKR site that all of the books chapter sixes start before school except in POA. This was probably due to Harry Running away from home and going to Diagon Alley. This has extensively been described in all of the Books so it did not make sense to make a chapter for it.

So will Draco take a small detour before school to go and see his good friend Harry? See my post #716.



Stringer - Nov 1, 2004 11:13 am (#723 of 1825)
Maybe Draco will see his father before he returns to school. Although we see things through Harry's eyes, so Harry would need to be present mentally of physically. The only way I can see Draco attacking Harry is with backup.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 1, 2004 12:27 pm (#724 of 1825)
I agree Stringer, Draco would only attack Harry solo if his back was turned or if Harry was in some way incapacitated. The Knock-Turn alley trip does make sense though. With Lucius currently unemployed(was he ever employed)Draco may be looking for a spot to drop off some of his father's prize possessions. He always has been a little thief.

Mikie



legolas - Nov 1, 2004 12:49 pm (#725 of 1825)
This is probably a silly thing to describe as Dracos detour but how about a trip to Weasleys wizarding shop. He could get shoved into a vanishing cabinet and end up in Transelvania or somewhere like that.



Ann - Nov 1, 2004 1:58 pm (#726 of 1825)
Interesting. It's been observed on the JKR website thread that "Draco's Detour" probably occurs before the trip to Hogwarts, and it probably occurs in some way that Harry (and hence the reader) is able to observe it. (Somehow, if Harry just hears about it, I don't see it occupying enough narrative space to justify the chapter title.)

So either Harry follows Draco somewhere (probably in Diagon or Nocturne Alleys), or (what seems slightly more likely to me), Harry observes Draco through Voldemort's eyes. Lucius's absence might be a good opportunity for Voldemort to check up on his not-so-trusted lieutenant, and perhaps also test the mettle of the next generation of Malfoys.

I can't believe that Narcissa will allow Draco to be sent off to Durmstrang. She was able to prevent that even while Lucius was around, and now that she's alone, she'd have even more motive to keep him closer.



StareyedSlytherin - Nov 1, 2004 2:52 pm (#727 of 1825)
True, I can't see him sent off to Durmstrang just because that would take him out of the picture, and right now there are so many possibilities with this character. To me, it seems as if he has been set up to be a part of something big in the next books so it wouldn't make much sense to take him out of the picture now.



zelmia - Nov 1, 2004 10:00 pm (#728 of 1825)
He always has been a little thief. - Mikie
Mikie, I don't recall anywhere in the books where Draco actually stole anything. Could you please cite a reference for this? I know in PS/SS he took Charlie's letter regarding Norbert, but that was by chance and not by design. Where else in the saga does Draco actually steal something intentionally?

As for "Draco's Detour" well the possibilities simply make the mind reel don't they? All of the suggestions so far sound good to me. One thing to possibly bear in mind is that the word "detour" implies a diversion from a pre-determined path. In other words, before we get to Chapter 6: Draco's Detour, she has to set up where Draco was going in the first place.
Obviously, this could be mean a literal "detour" - as in a detour down Knockturn Alley - or figuratively (as in a detour from the Dark side or from a mission of some sort).



Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 2, 2004 5:30 am (#729 of 1825)
I am thinking that Draco is going to take a little detour along with his Aunt Bellatrix or his mother Narcissa to deal with a muggle born witch along with her parents



Catherine - Nov 2, 2004 6:10 am (#730 of 1825)
Mikie, I don't recall anywhere in the books where Draco actually stole anything. Could you please cite a reference for this? I know in PS/SS he took Charlie's letter regarding Norbert, but that was by chance and not by design. Where else in the saga does Draco actually steal something intentionally? --Zelmia

Mikie might be be thinking of the Remembrall. Draco tried to steal it twice; once in the Great Hall in SS, and later during the flying lesson. I do find it interesting that in OoP Neville believes that he lost the Remembrall ages ago. I've always wondered if Draco managed to successfully steal it.



Tessa's Dad - Nov 2, 2004 8:22 am (#731 of 1825)
Could it be that Neville has not been losing things, but that Draco has been stealing things from Neville for years? I’m thinking of a scenario where the Malfoys and Longbottoms have adjoining estates. I’m fairly certain that the Malfoys would have nothing good to say about the Longbottoms and Draco would believe that Neville’s possessions were fair game. For years Draco could have been sending one of his house elves over to Neville’s to steal whatever Draco covets.

Maybe Trevor is a Watch Toad given to Neville for the purpose of watching Draco?

I’m going to post this in the Draco, Neville, and Toads, Rabbits and Other Incidental, Small Animals threads.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 2, 2004 8:26 am (#732 of 1825)
Zelmia - In CoS when Harry and Ron are in the Slytherin Common Room Draco picks up a present from the desk asks them if its theirs and then pockets it. Seems like petty theft but still theft.

Thanks Catherine, I had forgotten about the Remembrall.

Mikie



Catherine - Nov 2, 2004 8:34 am (#733 of 1825)
Zelmia - In CoS when Harry and Ron are in the Slytherin Common Room Draco picks up a present from the desk asks them if its theirs and then pockets it. Seems like petty theft but still theft. Mickey

This was not in the book CoS, although you are correct that it is in the movie.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 2, 2004 8:42 am (#734 of 1825)
Sorry, Movie contamination!!!! I need Umbridge's quill "I must not quote the movies, I must not quote the movies"

Mikie



Weeny Owl - Nov 2, 2004 11:02 am (#735 of 1825)
Even though that scene is in the movie and not the book, it's still possible that the Hand of Glory will play a prominent role in the future. I can't believe JKR wrote about it in Borgin & Burkes as opposed to all the other things in the store without it being important eventually. Well, I can believe it, but it fits with her writing style.

Draco wants to get back at Harry and what better way than sneaking around by using the Hand of Glory? It's supposed to make thieves invisible, and he could use it to cause quite a bit of damage.



LoopyforLupin - Nov 2, 2004 10:20 pm (#736 of 1825)
I believe that Draco will either go back for the hand or take a short stroll to the good side as a decoy of course



CrazyMom - Nov 11, 2004 8:18 am (#737 of 1825)
Does anyone think that Draco would get into Snape's potions in order to polyjuice himself into Ron? If he has to get inside information about Harry, that would be the way to do it.



Tessa's Dad - Nov 11, 2004 8:25 am (#738 of 1825)
I don’t think Draco could spell polyjuice, much less brew it! Even if he found someone to make it for him, I doubt that he could suppress his personality enough to pretend to be Ron.

PS CrazyMom, please don’t think that I’m attacking you or your idea. I just have a very low regard for “The Amazing Bouncing Ferret.”



zelmia - Nov 12, 2004 12:25 am (#739 of 1825)
His personality notwithstanding, Draco apparently did have enough skill/talent to cast the Serpentsortia spell in CS (and consequently outed Harry as a parselmouth.) Turning himself into Ron would definitely be a good way to get close to Harry.
Still, Draco has never been that covert. His strategy has always been to sort of 'lord over' Harry or Ron -- or Neville - that he [believes he] has more money/power/influence etc. and bask in their reaction - especially Ron's. All the more rewarding if he has an audience.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 12, 2004 1:52 pm (#740 of 1825)
Yeah... What Lucius uses as a dagger, Draco uses as an axe...



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 12, 2004 3:15 pm (#741 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would consider you idea Crazy Mom, unless he could his cronies along with him. No Guts!

Mikie



timrew - Nov 14, 2004 6:42 pm (#742 of 1825)
Yes.....but could Draco do Ron, Ron, Ron.

Da do Ron, Ron?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 14, 2004 6:45 pm (#743 of 1825)
Great tune to go to bed to... thank you Tim! :-)



StareyedSlytherin - Nov 14, 2004 11:52 pm (#744 of 1825)
timrew, that comment made me laugh a bit ;D

I personnally don't think polyjuice is really Draco's style. He's more the type to use force rather than brain power.



Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 15, 2004 8:35 pm (#745 of 1825)
Draco definatly gets his Curse First, ask questions later attitude from his mothers side of the family (mainly from his Aunt Bellatrix). But I wouldn't put it past the amazing bouncing ferret to take a page out of his fathers book and come up with a complex plot to discredit harry.



CrazyMom - Nov 16, 2004 3:48 am (#746 of 1825)
Well, the idea has alot of "ifs" where Draco is concerned, I guess. Since he is prefect for Slytherin, could he get into Snape's office and get into a ready made batch of polyjuice potion? Maybe,if he were directed by his mother or other family member to do so? I don't think that he would come up with the idea on his own. If, he uses the hand of glory to steal it, and if he has a clue how polyjuice potion works, he might find it empowering to pull one over on Harry. Draco is a sneaky bouncing ferret on occasion. I think that his personality would ferret him out though to Harry or Hermione.



hopping hessian - Nov 16, 2004 7:12 am (#747 of 1825)
Draco doesn't really seem to have nearly as much cunning as his father. What clever plots has he come up with? In the first book he's a stoolie more than a plotter. In the next two books he did nothing worth mentioning and the last two, his hatred of Harry and Co. was much too obvious to be effective. Until I saw a chapter title with his name in it, I thought for certain that he would slid into the background.

If he were to be involved in any sort of clever plot to trouble Harry it would either have to be accidental (discovering Harry was a parslemouth in CoS) or someone else would have to cook it up for him. Just my humble opinion.



Steve Newton - Nov 16, 2004 7:31 am (#748 of 1825)
HH, the only subtle plan that Draco came up with, that I cqan recall, is when he offered to duel Harry in the first book and it was a set up for Harry to be caught out by Filch.



wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 7:00 am (#749 of 1825)
And even that wouldn't be called a "subtle plan". I don't think Draco will ever be a mastermind of some intricate plot because, so far, he hasn't show any aptitude for such things. He can't control his emotions, he can't hide his dislike for others, he can't seem to plan more than a move or two ahead. All of his machinations and triumphs have been so transparent that anyone could see he was the person behind them. He's so unlike his father in these respects that I doubt his ability to be an effective nemesis for Harry or a DE. I get the feeling Lucius has recognized these shortcomings in his son already.



Czarina II - Nov 17, 2004 9:38 am (#750 of 1825)
Excellent analysis, wwtMask. Draco is not "subtle" by any means. In some situations, this is a good thing. You know exactly where he stands on most issues. Unfortunately, this does not bode well for a career as a DE. Draco is more like Umbridge, actually.

I think Draco makes an excellent nemesis for Ron, however! That is how I think his characters will develop in the last two books. He will set out to get Harry, but Harry has already moved on to higher challenges. It will be Ron who will end up facing Draco.

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wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 10:46 am (#751 of 1825)
I really hope that's the case. So far, Ron has only been able to personally get back at Draco on one occasion and I'm sure he's itching for more chances.. The problem is that Draco considers Ron to be beneath his interest and, I think, only really ridicules Ron in an effort to rile or hurt Harry. Draco may be a case of someone with grand illusions of being a rival when they're really more a distraction or annoyance. OotP may have been signalling that Harry now feels that way, as the line "I guess Lord Voldemort was just a warm-up compared to you three" might indicate.



Ann - Nov 17, 2004 11:06 am (#752 of 1825)
I'd sort of forgotten about all of Draco's taunting of Ron, because as you say, it usually seems mainly a way of annoying Harry. But if you think about it, the leitmotif of his attacks on Ron is that Ron's family is so short of money, has a small house, can't afford good brooms, etc.

Thinking about it, wouldn't this be the most likely way for JKR to put him in his place? After all his bragging about his family's wealth, perhaps the whole Malfoy family estate will be confiscated now that Lucius is an outed DE and known associate of You-know-who. That might explain Draco's Detour--maybe he does turn "highway man and thief" trying to restore his family's fortune, as foreshadowed in the Borgin & Burkes scene in CoS!



Ydnam96 - Nov 17, 2004 11:16 am (#753 of 1825)
Maybe his detour is that he and his mom have to move? Maybe Harry finds out that Draco has had to move to a smaller/less expensive house with his mom? That would be interesting.



wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 2:21 pm (#754 of 1825)
Well, that would certainly make him hate Harry even more than he does now, if that is at all possible.



Steve Newton - Nov 17, 2004 4:52 pm (#755 of 1825)
There is something bothersome about Draco. (I know, duh) But he seems to pass along a lot of useful information to the trio. For instance in OOTP on the train to Hogwarts he mentions dogging the trio's steps. A reference to Sirius at the station. Later he is talking about Hagrid and suggests that he maybe he has too large a job (very approximate, in chapter 12 or 13). A reference to Hagrid's visit to the giants.

It sounds as if he got both of these tidbits from Lucius. So either Lucius is very indiscreet and Draco is a blabbermouth or Lucius is feeding Draco information to give to the trio.

If Draco is just a blabbermouth than Lord V will make sure that he doesn't have a chance to take his NEWTS. If he is passing on information it would suggest that Lucius is playing a very deep game.

It seems as though Draco could lose no matter which side wins. And Lucius could win no matter which side wins.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 17, 2004 8:22 pm (#756 of 1825)
I don't think Draco's brain functions well enough to feed information to the trio. He just likes making HRH believing that he knows more than he really knows. He hears little bits and pieces and uses what he feels can cause HRH the most grief. I doubt if their is anything more sinster, but with JKR you can never tell.

Mikie



zelmia - Nov 17, 2004 9:07 pm (#757 of 1825)
My take on it is that there is nothing intentional in Draco's "feeding infomation to the Trio." He says what he does as part of his expression of his feelings of superiority and nothing more.
"Famous Harry Potter" may be "the Boy Who Lived" but he has no proper parents, no proper 'wizard pride'. And he did reject Draco's offer of friendship outright.
Ron is such an easy target for someone like Draco: un-wealthy (I hesitate to use the word "poor" here because the Weasleys really aren't that strapped), second-banana to Harry's celebrity, less talented on the Quidditch pitch.
I suspect Lucius is not really aware of exactly how much Draco reveals to Harry and Co. In CS he specifically warns to Draco that it wouldn't look good for them to appear adversarial to the boy whom most of the Wizarding World reveres (or words to that effect) and also to "keep his head down" with regard to the Heir of Slytherin.
I suspect that "Draco's Detour" will have more to do with Draco saying something incriminating to the wrong person.



Ann - Nov 17, 2004 9:56 pm (#758 of 1825)
"I suspect that "Draco's Detour" will have more to do with Draco saying something incriminating to the wrong person."

Let's just hope it's Voldemort! That would be some detour.

(I love that quote, Zelmia. I've been idly trying to remember Mr. Allnut's name for years! But I remembered it with "put on this earth"; perhaps it's a book/film contamination thing. But thanks for reminding me of that wonderful scene!)



Steve Newton - Nov 18, 2004 10:32 am (#759 of 1825)
Zelmia, my point was that Lucius was feeding the information using Draco. If that is correct than Draco is just a patsy and possibly disposable.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 18, 2004 12:29 pm (#760 of 1825)
I don't think Lucius would consider Draco disposable regardless of how unhappy he might be with his son's magical ability or promise. He may be disappointed but not to the point of risking his son's life.

If it was to come out that he had done anything that led to a downfall or injury to Draco, I believe he would have to answer to Narcissa and that might not be a pretty scene. The muggle police might have to take them both away.

Mikie



Steve Newton - Nov 18, 2004 1:05 pm (#761 of 1825)
I think that you have a higher opinion of Lucius than I do.



Tomoé - Nov 18, 2004 1:46 pm (#762 of 1825)
Ann -> After all his bragging about his family's wealth, perhaps the whole Malfoy family estate will be confiscated now that Lucius is an outed DE and known associate of You-know-who.

I doesn't seems like Sirius lost 12GP when convicted for the same charges, or else the Black sister (likely Narcissa as Bellatrix was no better than Sirius) who get the house didn't take care of it. So I bet the Malfoy's estate will still be in their possession. But if, like I believe, the fortune of the family run mainly on influence peddling (with a background of old money and real estates), they will have to reduce some cost. Now, will Narcissa cut in Draco's sweet packages? Will she cut in Draco's overall budget to by herself new robes (as her name suggest)?

Edit : I'm sure Lucius is able to talk his way out even with Narcissa and as long as he's alive, he can get another pure-blood son. Since he doesn't go through pregnancy, he just don't care. Sure to lose Draco will be to lose 16 years in training his successor, but he could turn that lost into sympathy from people he want to charm. This man is the devil himself, I tell you, much more than Voldemort ever was.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 29, 2004 11:23 am (#763 of 1825)
"Now, will Narcissa cut in Draco's sweet packages? Will she cut in Draco's overall budget to by herself new robes (as her name suggest)?"

Well, look at it this way... Now that Malfoy is a known Death Eater, he has lost a good deal of influence and fewer will take his money.

So, if anything, Draco would get even more sweet packages. And Narcissa would still be able to get new robes for herself...

Of course, I guess I'm assuming that Malfoy will still get a steady cash flow. If he owns the Riddle House and Muggles inadvertantly pay taxes to him, then that's no problem... (Wait a minute... What exactly is the stated reason why the current landlord of the Riddle House bothers to own and maintain it? Tax purposes, wasn't it? What does that mean?)



Steve Newton - Nov 29, 2004 11:38 am (#764 of 1825)
"fewer will take his money."

Highly unlikely.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 29, 2004 11:44 am (#765 of 1825)
Why is it highly unlikely? "Everyone knows what a scumbag he is", to quote Harry, and I very much doubt that the guys at St Mungo's knew beforehand what a scumbag he was. Would they still take his money if they did?

Or would they take a bribe but refuse to do what he says? That seems like a bad idea to me, because it puts them in the scumbag's debt... At least it would make them guilty by association.



Weeny Owl - Nov 29, 2004 11:59 am (#766 of 1825)
There's a big difference between making donations to St. Mungo's and behind-the-scenes bribery. I believe that Narcissa knows quite a bit about Malfoy business. Even if some of their income dries up, I'm sure they've blackmailed enough people to keep some money coming in.

As for blackmail, if Narcissa or Lucius should tell Draco about some things they're holding over people, he could try to get at the trio at Hogwarts by threatening students with revealing sensitive information about relatives. That way he could have other students doing his dirty work.

As or the Malfoy estate being confiscated, as Tomoe said, 12 Grimmauld Place and Sirius's Gringott's account weren't touched, so there's no reason why Malfoy Manor or family bank accounts would be. Besides that, even if Lucius is in Azkaban, there's no proof that Narcissa and Draco were involved, and it's their property too.



wwtMask - Nov 29, 2004 12:01 pm (#767 of 1825)
I think it more likely that wizards who are neutral or in favor of Lord Voldemort are subject to the sway of Malfoy money, but anyone else is pretty much off-limits. After all, how would it look for a charity or organization to accept money from a known terrorist and supporter of Voldemort?



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 29, 2004 12:12 pm (#768 of 1825)
Don't know about England but it has never kept charities(even the catholic church)from accepting donations from known mobsters in the US.

Mikie

Edit-Not trying to ruffle any feathers by the way.



Steve Newton - Nov 29, 2004 12:12 pm (#769 of 1825)
Paulus, If somebody is giving away money, somebody will take it.



wwtMask - Nov 29, 2004 12:25 pm (#770 of 1825)
Mickey, I don't know how true that all is, but I think donations to the church (tithes) by members of the denomination might be seen a bit differently. I was thinking more along the lines of UNICEF or March of Dimes accepting contributions from someone like a Bin Laden or Al-Zarqawi.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 29, 2004 12:29 pm (#771 of 1825)
wwtMask - Point taken.

Mikie



Paulus Maximus - Nov 29, 2004 1:41 pm (#772 of 1825)
If somebody is giving away money on certain conditions, only someone who agrees to the conditions would take it.

Or someone stupid...

I'm sure that Lucius used to have enough influence to make some bribes and make them look like donations...



StareyedSlytherin - Nov 30, 2004 5:56 pm (#773 of 1825)
That could put an interesting spin on things in the later books. However, I don't remember any events where Draco has threatened any other students with information that could lead to a possibility of bribes made by the Malfoy family. I could be wrong though, anything's possible.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 30, 2004 10:37 pm (#774 of 1825)
"I don't remember any events where Draco has threatened any other students with information that could lead to a possibility of bribes made by the Malfoy family."

Threats seem more along the lines of blackmail than bribery. While it might be possible to make a bribe look like a donation, it is not possible to make blackmail look like a donation, because money doesn't have to change hands in blackmail.

Unless someone in St Mungo's is blackmailing Malfoy... but why would Malfoy not spill the beans on such a person rather than pretend to make donations?



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 1, 2004 5:52 am (#775 of 1825)
probably because the information that the person at st. mugos had on Lucius at the time was bad enough that Lucius would have been completly ruined and put in azkaban for the rest of his life if he didn't cough up donations on a regular basis.



StareyedSlytherin - Dec 4, 2004 12:29 pm (#776 of 1825)
Maybe someone had some kind of evidence to what kind of person he really was;)



Tomoé - Dec 8, 2004 11:20 pm (#777 of 1825)
Lucius gave money to get a place in the top box at the Quidditch World Cup. It was likely a deal between Lucius and Fudge.



Ann - Dec 10, 2004 9:31 am (#778 of 1825)
Tomoé, I don't think it was probably an explicit "deal." Lucius, like many real lobbyists (not to put too fine a point on it) works through little nudges and innuendos and subtle suggestions, then backs them up with huge amounts of money, or money carefully distributed, in order to make it impossible for people with power and influence to ignore him or act in ways contrary to his wishes. It's more like a generalized cloud of favors, little and big. But it's never really a "deal."



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 13, 2004 4:00 pm (#779 of 1825)
Solitaire to carry over our discussion on the Amelia Bones thread, I would love to see Draco come face to face with Voldemort. After all the teasing Harry about fainting in the face of the dementors how could Draco keep from fainting. He couldn't even stand up to Hermione when she punched him.

It would also be fantastic if Harry was to save Draco from an AK from Voldemort. Then he would owe Harry a life debt.

Mikie

I thought this needed to be moved from the Amelia Bones thread to stay on topic overthere.



Ann - Dec 15, 2004 8:58 am (#780 of 1825)
Edited by megfox Dec 16, 2004 9:07 am
I was reading through various scenes recently, and I was impressed at how pointedly JKR tells us about Draco's cowardice, particularly with regard to the Forbidden Forest. The kid is afraid even to get close to it, and in OotP, when he goes into the forest with Hagrid and his entire class, she refers twice explicitly to the panic in his voice. And if you look back, his physical cowardice is plain all through the books.

Obviously, this fits with his being a bully (they are always the greatest cowards), but I wonder if his cowardice isn't going to be essential to the plot at some point, too.



Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 9:38 am (#781 of 1825)
Hermione didn't punch Draco, she slapped him, Draco staggered, Harry, Ron, Crabbe and Goyle stood flabbergasted. (PoA ch.15)

Which means, in my opinion, the five of them never saw it coming and were frozen by surprise. Draco didn't run cowardly like Tom Felton in the movie. Draco is indeed a coward, he was positively running from the Dementor in the train, he flee from Quirrel-mort in the forest, almost never look safe around CoCM when Haggrid is the teacher and was affraid when he was goon-less against Harry in their flying lesson. But he wasn't afraid of Hermione when she slapped him, he was taken aback.

Maybe deal wasn't the exact word, Ann. Giving money to St Mungo's is not enough to get three seats in the top box. Giving money to St Mungo's when the hospital is on a tigh budget and still need a important amount of money to meet the end of the year payment is enough to get three seats in the top box. So I bet Fudge subtly indicate St Mungo's will be short of money and need a generous donator, Malfoy subtly said his son would be delighted to see the QWC in the top box, he's on his house Quidditch team at Hogwarts and all, their gaze meet, they both smile, Malfoy ask "How much St Mungo's needs?" and the "deal" is done. That's how I think it happened.



Ann - Dec 15, 2004 10:36 pm (#782 of 1825)
Edited by megfox Dec 16, 2004 9:12 am
Tomoé, sorry--I misunderstood you. I assumed you meant that there was an explicit deal. But you mean an implicit deal, which is what I thought, too. I like your description, particularly the part where their gazes meet. That's exactly what I meant.

I just meant that people who are secure do not have to prove it. People who are insecure in their bravery sometimes become bullies to try to cover it up. I was just trying to generalize; but I didn't mean to imply it was relevant. Sorry about the extraneous red herring.

But about this stress on Draco's cowardice (he may not have been afraid of Hermione when she slapped him, but I bet he thought twice about annoying her the next time!): can anyone think of a way that it might affect the plot?

Edit: I edited a portion of this thread, after editing a portion of Ann's previous thread and deleting Twinkling's response (which was moot once I had edited it). The edits had nothing to do with either of your behaviour, it was more about the content of the post. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me @ [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. - megfox



TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 15, 2004 11:23 pm (#783 of 1825)
No problem, thank you for your response and explaination.

I do think Draco's cowardace will show itself again, maybe in an unexpected way.

...toddles off to speculate.



Tomoé - Dec 16, 2004 7:24 am (#784 of 1825)
Don't feel sorry Ann, I should have explained my idea with more details, it was a minimalistic one line posts after all. ^_~

Back to the topic, since Draco's coward tendancy have been showed in almost every books (I can't remember of anything in CoS), and twice in the first book, I believe it will be very important.



Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 2:35 pm (#785 of 1825)
In Chamber of Secrets, Draco attacks Harry in the dueling club before the fair count, and ends up with more than he or Severus had bargained for.



Tomoé - Dec 17, 2004 3:23 pm (#786 of 1825)
When he send a snake as Harry proved to be capable duelist? Well, I suppose, since he put the fight out of the magical level to hide behind a threatening snake.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 17, 2004 3:27 pm (#787 of 1825)
Edited by Dec 17, 2004 2:28 pm
I am sorry, Tomoé. I cannot make out what exactly you are saying. Would you mind clarifying your meaning?

Marcus



Tomoé - Dec 17, 2004 3:56 pm (#788 of 1825)
As Hollywand suggested, the fact that Draco set the duel out of the magical realm by conjuring a snake (and therefore a loose canon in the game that Harry had to deal with first) could be a way for Jo to show us he's a coward. Hollywand proposed this as I was looking for a cowardice clue in CoS in Draco's behavior.

But I just remember Snape talk with Draco before which mean it was probably not Draco's idea. Maybe you had sometime else in mind Hollywand?

Did I make sense Marcus?



Prefect Marcus - Dec 17, 2004 4:15 pm (#789 of 1825)
Yes, thank you. :-)



Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 5:26 pm (#790 of 1825)
Correct, Tomoe. Draco also makes his move before the full count to three. Cowardly.



Tomoé - Dec 19, 2004 3:06 am (#791 of 1825)
Oh, I forgot he made his move before the count was over, definitely cowardly.



rambkowalczyk - Dec 20, 2004 8:27 am (#792 of 1825)
I was reading through various scenes recently, and I was impressed at how pointedly JKR tells us about Draco's cowardice, particularly with regard to the Forbidden Forest. The kid is afraid even to get close to it, and in OotP, when he goes into the forest with Hagrid and his entire class, she refers twice explicitly to the panic in his voice. Ann

It is true that Draco may be a coward and does behave with a lot less grace under pressure than say Ron, but as I read Ann's statement I wondered whether we are taken the Forbidden Forest for granted.

That is, it is a scary place. When you look at Fred and George's attitude, and the fact that as 12 year olds Harry and Ron survived it on their own it's tempting to see it as not much of a threat. But after the spider incident Ron was physically sick. I think JKR is using the Ron and Draco to show that the Forbidden Forest is dangerous.

I wonder if what kind of experience Draco had in the forest or what kind of stories he has heard from his parents about the Forbidden Forest.



green shoes - Dec 22, 2004 8:49 pm (#793 of 1825)
I think Draco could possibly do something very helpful or kind later on...I think people forget that he is a young child, and is therefore very impressionable, and look at who his father is! What I mean to say is that Draco can't be completely blamed for his behavior having grown up in such a household. It's possible that Draco will realize his father is not a good role model. It's possible he won't. I agree with an earlier post that it would be like JKR to throw us something unexpected from a person like Draco, and have him save Harry's hide or something--but only if he sees the light somehow first. I have been thinking during my long walks through the woods, that perhaps Draco will have been 'sworn in' as a death eater by book six, he'll be sixteen won't he? Sixteen is a time for drivers licenses and more responsiblity, it would make sense that you have to be at least sixteen to join...OR MAYBE the chapter is called "Draco's Detour" because you have to be 18 to join the death eaters, and he is taking a "detour" by joining them earlier!!! Hmmm...Wouldn't it be interesting if Draco became one and was trying to help his father or something, and he got in a bad situation, some sort of brall, and his father didn't try to protect him or something, or just walked away when he was in danger, and Harry helped him or saved him instead?! I can see that happening, and then Draco realizing the error of his ways...hmm..far fetched maybe, but possible. This is long. Sorry. PeaceO.



green shoes - Dec 22, 2004 8:56 pm (#794 of 1825)
Oh, I also wanted to say that after I watched POA the other day (again) Surprised),I was thinking about JKR saying in that interview that there were some things that were said or that happened in the movie that foreshadowed things in the last two books. So, besides the fact that Draco and Hermione have always been "at loggerheads" he says in the movie after she punches him in the nose "I'm gonna get that jumped up mud blood, mark my words!"

I've thought about the possibility of Draco doing something to Hermione, maybe to try and lure Harry into a trap even...I dunno...we'll see I guess...PeaceO.



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 23, 2004 8:07 am (#795 of 1825)
I have no faith that Draco will ever be anything but a egotistical, bully. With no thoughts or cares about anyone other than himself. To me that type of person is as despicable as the adult Voldemort. I wouldn't be surprised to find that their careers at Hogwarts have been very similar.

green shoes I would like to agree with you that Draco can change and be a better person. But so far we have absolutely no indication of it happening.

Mikie



scoop2172000 - Dec 23, 2004 11:22 am (#796 of 1825)
Maybe Draco's and Voldemort's social careers at Hogwarts could have been similar, but not their academic. Tom Riddle was a brilliant student, whereas Draco gets grades -- much to his father's chagrin -- lower than Hermione.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 11:32 am (#797 of 1825)
Edited by Dec 23, 2004 10:33 am
I think Draco began as a fairly likeable person, at least by Slytherin standards. He seemed to develop leadership among his peers. However, he has never forgiven Harry for not shaking his hand back on the train. That dislike has grown into an obsession. That obsession is beginning to hurt, hurt badly.

It is obvious to anybody who wants to look that Harry Potter is on the ascendency at Hogwarts. I believe Draco is going to find himself isolated even among Slytherin students this year. They are going to realize just how weak and pathetic Draco is.

One of the first to defect will be Pansy.



wolfgrl - Dec 28, 2004 10:32 am (#798 of 1825)
Prefect Marcus, I like the idea of Draco finding himself isolated even among Slytherns. Maybe the start of that will be him getting thrown off of the house quidditch team because he is not good seeker, and they have the brooms now, so why keep him. From there he will loose status with the students.



scoop2172000 - Dec 28, 2004 12:02 pm (#799 of 1825)
Draco certainly has lost much of his power base, and I can imagine many of his more-moderate Slytherin classmates will distance themselves from him.

Draco's pampered position had rested on his having a rich father who was in the Minister of Magic's inner circle. But now, Lucius has been exposed as being in Voldemort's inner circle.

I think many "regular" Slytherins (if regular is what you could call them) will distance themselves from Draco and his cronies (Crabbe, Goyle and Nott) whose fathers have been exposed as being Death Eaters.

Perhaps these moderate Slytherins will unite with the other houses, heeding the Sorting Hat's warning that the school must unite or it could fall.

P.S. Wolfgirl, I like your idea about Draco getting booted off the Quidditch team. Though, we don't really know if he's a bad seeker. He must have helped Slytherin win games, because Slytherin has always been in the running for the Cup.

Maybe it's just a matter of Draco being unable to beat the very-talented Harry, who has a near-perfect record. Draco may be able to beat some other house teams, but he can't get past Gryffindor.

I think if Draco loses his team post, it won't be that he (like Cho) hasn't been playing well lately. The ostracism likely would be because of the scandal involving his father.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the next season starts with Harry being reinstated to Gryffindor's house team and Draco being forced to resign from Slytherin's? What goes around comes around ....



Steve Newton - Dec 28, 2004 9:52 pm (#800 of 1825)
Scoop, I don't think that we know enough of Nott to know whether or not he is Draco's crony. You could also make a case that Goyle is already distancing himself from Draco. He is not mentioned on the Inquisitorial Squad and his father is not at the MOM. There may well be another explanation.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 29, 2004 6:03 am (#801 of 1825)
True, we don't know enough about Nott to know whether's he's a crony of Draco's. Perhaps "peer" would have been a better choice of words. Jo has indicated Nott is something of an equal to Draco.

The senior Goyle was one of the Death Eaters that Harry saw in the graveyard. Harry said so to Fudge and Dumbledore soon afterward in the hospital wing. More importantly, Harry named names in the interview he granted Rita Skeeter.

This raises an interesting point: did the Aurors round up everyone Harry reported being present in the graveyard, or did they arrest only those Death Eaters caught red-handed in the Ministry? I tend to believe they arrested everyone they could find, now that Harry and Dumbledore now are are being believed by the wizarding world.

As for the junior Goyle not being in the Inquisitorial Squad, my take on that is he's too "thick" to have been trusted. Crabbe and Goyle were side-by-side with Draco in the last chapter of OotP, "The Second War Begins." Harry ran into the three of them in the entrance hall (and ended up pulling his wand on Draco.)



Tomoé - Dec 30, 2004 7:11 am (#802 of 1825)
Is Draco a good Seeker? Here's the Quidditch record (numbers are victories and letters are the House vanquished) :

Gryffindor Hufflepuff Ravenclaw Slytherin
PS 2 SH 0 or 1 R 1 G or 2 GH 2 RH
CoS 1 S 0 or 1 R 0 or 1 H 0
PoA 2 RS 1 G 1 H 2 SH
OoP 2 SR 2 SG 1 H 1 R


We don't know who get the snitches in the non-Gryffindor games, but the Slytherin usually do pretty well. Their bad performance on OoP (only one victory) would be more Crabbe and Goyle's fault than Draco, but the team could decided to kick all the DE's son out. On the broom's matter, I'm sure Malfoy only lent the brooms as long as he's on the team.

By the way, Warrington is as old as or older than Angelina (he put is name in the goblet), he should be out of school next year (unless he does a Flint, that is). So maybe Draco will get captaincy in HbP before being thrown out of the team in HP7.



Eponine - Dec 30, 2004 8:30 am (#803 of 1825)
Off topic, but it's interesting that Gryffindor has not beaten Hufflepuff in the 5 years that Harry's been at school.

So, according to your chart, Draco's won 3 games for them, while has has won 7. I don't really know how much talent you can determine from that, but I do agree that if Draco goes, the brooms go too.



Tomoé - Dec 31, 2004 2:34 am (#804 of 1825)
Gryffindor did win over Hufflepuff in Harry's first year, but I agree Cedric's House is getting better.

I wouldn't call the score as Harry 7, Draco 3, CoS season was cancelled after 2 games, plus Harry was allow to play on his first year while Draco couldn't so I would say Harry 4, Draco 3. As a reminder, Cho have two victories to date, Cedric only one.

Wait a minute, it wasn't Harry who caught the final snitch in OoP, but Ginny, so the score minus PS and CoS should be even Harry 3, Draco 3.

Edit : Summerbe, the Hufflepuff Seeker in OoP, have two victories, he could become quite a rival to Harry and Draco ^_~.



Eponine - Dec 31, 2004 7:45 am (#805 of 1825)
Okay, Tomoe, you're right. I had read that somewhere and thought it was Hufflepuff they had played in PS/SS when Harry was in the hospital.

So, Draco and Harry might be even in their seeking abilities, but everyone seems to think that Harry is the best seeker in a long time. So what makes a good seeker? How good is Draco really? Was it just funny circumstances that caused him to win those times? It's really hard to judge his ability because we don't really see him play against anyone but Harry, do we?



Tomoé - Dec 31, 2004 2:18 pm (#806 of 1825)
While Harry and Draco's skill are even on paper, in reality they don't; if Harry don't get the snitch, it's because of extraordinary event (coma, cancelled season, Dementors, banishment from the Quidditch team) not because of Harry lack of talent. When Draco lost the snitch, it's usually because he play against Harry (I'd like to know why Slytherin lose against Hufflepuff in OoP).

However, Draco's performance is quite comparable to Terence Higgs's (the former Slytherin Seeker), and much better than Cho or Diggory's. We'll see if Summerby become someone to reckon with, Draco did lose to him in OoP (or at least it's what the final score suggest). So I'd say Draco is a good enough Seeker to stay on the team.



Snuffles - Jan 4, 2005 8:36 am (#807 of 1825)
Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but what if Draco gets unwittingly involved in some battle, being the coward he is panics and ends up having to be saved by Harry. I know how much Harry dislikes Draco but would he actually let him die? Draco will see how powerful Harry is becoming as a wizard and that he owes his life to him. * awaits the dungbombs *

Oops forgot to put maybe this is Draco's Detour.



Steve Newton - Jan 4, 2005 8:42 am (#808 of 1825)
Snuffles, my impression is that Harry's hatred of Draco has sort of fallen by the wayside. Draco is now an irritant not an enemy. Harry has moved on to another league. Unless Draco changes or displays talents we haven't seen yet he will be forgotten. (I think that he will show new talents or switch sides. Side switching is unlikely, I know.)



Snuffles - Jan 4, 2005 9:04 am (#809 of 1825)
No i cant really see Draco changing sides but i see him sneaking around Harry trying to get revenge for getting his father sent to Azkaban, a bit like a young Snape following MWPP in their younger years. He unwittingly finds himself in a battle where he has no idea how to get out and has to turn to Harry for help. He then finds out exactly what the DE's are capable of and that its not the future for him. He wont change his mind on muggle borns and trying to be more superior than others but he may not go out of his way so much to cause trouble for the trio. Sorry for the rambling i hope it makes sense, this damn cold ive got seems to be fogging my brain!



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 4, 2005 1:04 pm (#810 of 1825)
Harry has taken on Voldemort 4 times in the last 5 years. I doubt if their is anything that Draco can do to Harry that he(Harry) wouldn't be prepared for. Unless his true self shows and he attacks him from the rear or with the help of all of his cronies. Who I might add I think will be thinning out considerable now that the money and gifts will be stopping or at least cutting back in Lucius's absence.

Mikie



scoop2172000 - Jan 4, 2005 1:19 pm (#811 of 1825)
Too, Draco might think twice about going after Harry given what happened when he (Draco) tried to ambush Harry on the Hogwarts Express. Harry's got his own army now, ha, ha.



Prefect Marcus - Jan 4, 2005 1:45 pm (#812 of 1825)
I was thinking this when watching the duel scene in CoS. In CoS Harry and Draco was about equal. If Draco and Harry ever dueled again, I think I would actually fear for Draco. He wouldn't stand a snowball's chance.



Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 5, 2005 3:17 am (#813 of 1825)
I definatly agree that if Draco is going to attack potter he will definatly do it while harrys back is turned. Ever since Draco, Flint, Crabbe and Goyle were targets for Harrys Patronus during the Gryffindor vs. Ravenclaw match in PoA Draco hasn't tried to take Harry on face to face. I do think that Draco is going to try to pull something in book 6.



wwtMask - Jan 5, 2005 6:56 am (#814 of 1825)
Also, Draco won't have his fellow Slytherins to hide behind. Except for a few loyal friends and the children of DEs, what other Slytherins would really stand with Draco? There's nothing in it for them to be associated with kids whose parents have been undeniably linked to the Dark Lord, whether or not they agree with Voldemort. I think we could have the beginnings of a new dark lord here, assuming Draco steps up his wizarding skills with the intention of getting Harry.



scoop2172000 - Jan 5, 2005 8:55 am (#815 of 1825)
I could see Voldemort and his followers recruiting students from Dumbledore's student body, seeking students in Slytherin.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 5, 2005 11:35 am (#816 of 1825)
That's logical scoop2172000, I am more worried about the Ravenclaw, Huffenpuff & Gryfindor students they might recruit. We would expect some of the Slytherin students to be swayed toward Voldemort.

Mikie



Saralinda Again - Jan 7, 2005 8:53 pm (#817 of 1825)
Wayyyy back in PS/SS, when Harry got his invitation to Hogwarts, he wondered how he could pay for it, since the Dursleys certainly weren't about to fund his education. Hagrid reassured him that his parents hadn't left him penniless.

Will any of the little Death Nibblers be unable to afford Hogwarts tuition with their daddies in the slammer? If so, will Dumbledore and Snape between them engineer a Slytherin Scholarship fund? Will Draco and Mumsy and Aunt Trixie have to pawn everything that's under the trap door? Does Durmstrang charge comparable fees to Hogwarts? Might it offer a reduced rate to little weasels-in-training who are feeling the pinch of papa's legal expenses?

Can you picture the Weird Sisters playing at Slytherin Aid concert?

Saralinda
"Consistently guessing wrong about Harry Potter since 2002."



Prefect Marcus - Jan 7, 2005 9:18 pm (#818 of 1825)
I suspect tuition is paid by the MoM. I would think that the books, wand, robes, and so forth are the responsibility of the student and his family.



scoop2172000 - Jan 10, 2005 6:44 am (#819 of 1825)
I agree with Prefect Marcus: I think the Ministry pays for the schooling itself. In the U.S., we call this public school, i.e., school that the government pays for.

I know, I know, in the U.K., "public school" is what we in the U.S. call private school. Rather confusing.



Muggle Doctor - Jan 19, 2005 7:12 pm (#820 of 1825)
Thoughts on the Slug-Ferret

If he is one dimensional, I think this is there to make a point: he comes from a very wealthy family with powerful connections, whose side in the previous war was winning easily until the unexpected reversal. He has everything he could possibly want from his parents (except, it could be argued, their affection), and he has a Head of House who favours him in a grossly unfair manner (though this could be what Snape needs to do to keep his cover). He has a fair proportion of Slytherin kids in his year at his beck and call, I would say (Crabbe and Goyle are his "siamese triplets" and Pansy seems to spend a great deal of time drooling over him).

In short, he has everything, and he should be a winner.

Instead, he loses time and time again to:

1) An orphaned boy who is abused by his caregivers.
2) A poor boy from a family that is hard-up because of its size.
3) A girl from a background ("mudblood") he has been brought up to believe as inferior (at least) or worthy of extermination (at worst).


If we add in the other three (Neville, Luna, Ginny), we get a boy whose parents are permanently damaged (and whose inaccessibility is constantly there to haunt him) and whose grandmother browbeats and terrifies him, a spaced-out girl with a widowed, bizarre, eccentric father and a poor GIRL from a family that is hard-up because of its size.

To all of these, Draco loses time and again. He cannot see where his own flaws, where these exist, might be contributing to his losses. His currency and popularity revolve around who he is (and whose son he is), not what he is, and he is about to have some hard lessons in this regard.

The Draco Malfoy/Tom Felton confusion is IMHO even more dangerous than some of you might think. Felton is the perfect physical image for Draco - I saw the films AFTER I read the books, and I thought "Yes, that's perfect." The scary part is that in "confusing" the two, the Draco Malfoy Girlie Fan Club demonstrates that it is fixated upon someone who is physically desirable yet who, if he were real, would be terribly bad for them (dangerous, possibly even abusive; certainly controlling and manipulative). In other words it is that sub-set of young females who fall in love with (and cannot seem to fall out with) the "bad boy" or "thug" type.

They are the sort of girl who ends up marrying an abusive or violent husband. THAT is the scary bit, not that they admire the Draco character.



Choices - Jan 19, 2005 7:34 pm (#821 of 1825)
Muggle Doc - That is exactly what happens with the Snape character. Who, in their right mind, would be attracted to Snape if he weren't played by (be still my heart) Alan Rickman? You are so right about the Malfoy character - the actor and the character are being confused.



Ann - Jan 20, 2005 2:39 pm (#822 of 1825)
Who, in their right mind, would be attracted to Snape if he weren't played by (be still my heart) Alan Rickman?

Choices, I don't think that's true at all. I think, if he were a living person, I would find Snape an interesting and compelling person, and a potential friend (though one would want to clean him up considerably for romance, I admit). Although he's bitter and often nasty to other people, he is clearly extremely intelligent, witty, occasionally funny, and (the important part) self-aware. He has his own moral code (however wrong-headed) and clearly tries to live up to it. Whatever he does, he has a reason for it, and I'm sure he's justifying it in his own mind somehow; he does not really see himself as evil (though he undoubtedly sees his own past actions as evil and his youthful choices as wrong).

Snape's meanness is not rooted in selfishness, but such uncontrolled bitterness that it seeps out of his pores and burns other people. It would be interesting to find out how he justifies his actions and to argue with him about them. I believe that if a person like Snape could be brought to agree that his reasons and actions were wrong, he would change. He is clearly a man who is aware of the choices he has made and has yet to make.

And, by the way, my view of Snape has nothing to do with Alan Rickman because that's the way I've seen him since CoS, long before the first film. I think the reason Rickman makes Snape a somewhat more attractive personality is that he acts him so well--but he's really just like that in the books--but he's less physically repellant (no chipped, yellow teeth). Rickman cleans him up a bit so the underlying charm of an intelligent but bitter man is clearer.

Draco Malfoy, in contrast, seems to be quite unintelligent and extremely unaware that there are any choices to be made at all. He thinks it's all laid out for him and that all he has to do is go with the flow. I agree that he is likely to become a reprehensible and dangerous adult, though there is also the possibility that he will have an experience that brings him up short--something that challenges his assumptions about the world enough to make him more aware of his own responsibilities as a human being.

I think Snape may see himself in Malfoy, perhaps because they both had overbearing DE fathers whom they followed blindly. But I think he's most likely mistaken. Compare Malfoy at 15 with Snape in the pensieve and you've got two totally different young men, affected by two totally different experiences.



Elanor - Jan 20, 2005 3:07 pm (#823 of 1825)
Brilliant post Ann! I do agree. You should post it on the Snape thread as well, it would be great there as well. As for Snape/Rickman, I only saw the 3 movies last June, so I had read all the books before seeing them and I changed my mind about Snape far before watching A.Rickman playing the role.

He reminds me of icebergs, whose invisible part his huge compared to what we see of it, dangerous also, but truly fascinating. We still have so much to discover about him.

Draco has not shown any profoundness yet. It still may come, at least I hope so, I would love seeing him being in a moral dilemna. For now, compared to Snape, he is only a little ice cube that would not be enough for refreshing my butterbeer...



Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 4:52 pm (#824 of 1825)
Elanor: I would love seeing him [Draco] being in a moral dilemna.

Does he have any morals over which to have a dilemma? I wonder ... does he really have any sort of "code of behavior" or moral code? I think meanness is his rule. He does not seem to have much depth or substance. Hopefully, he will develop some ... soon.

I love your comparison of Snape to an iceberg--"dangerous ... but truly fascinating." I definitely agree with the dangerous part, and I certainly find him interesting. I am, however, repelled by his treatment of most of the students--Harry and Neville, in particular. So I suppose I am less fascinated than some.

Snape does seem to have some sort of moral compass. I'm not sure exactly what it is or whether I agree with it. But he seems rather self-assured and always in control of the situations in which he finds himself.

Solitaire



Catherine - Jan 20, 2005 5:00 pm (#825 of 1825)
I almost feel like what I am about to say is frivolous, and unworthy of posting, but... BRAVO!...with clapping... to the last few posts.

They have been cogent, insightful, well-written (and big kudos to Elanor who does not speak/write English as a first language) and so very interesting to read.

I do think that a comparison of Draco and Snape is interesting to read about, and I think that the last few posts have analyzed their characters well.

I come away from these posts realizing that there are significant differences between Draco, Lucius and Snape, and I am still pondering them.

Thanks, and Cheers.



Choices - Jan 20, 2005 6:33 pm (#826 of 1825)
Snape is definitely all that you say Ann - he is a fascinating man. But, if he were really as he is written, with the yellow teeth, sallow skin, hook nose, and greasy hair, could all the fascination in the world make you want to be near him? Sorry, but I'd have to clean him up first. I'd be so distracted by his grungy-ness, I don't think I could pay attention to his intellect and wit. There is just something wrong with someone who doesn't pay attention to his personal hygiene.



Muggle Doctor - Jan 20, 2005 7:33 pm (#827 of 1825)
Draco and Voldemort - ha! We will, I am sure, soon see what happens when Draco meets his beloved Dark Lord in the flesh and finds out what he's let himself in for. Here is my take on the matter, to illustrate exactly what LV would think of our young Draco...

The scene: just before start of term, 6th year. LV drops in on Narcissa and Draco at home.

LV (looks down at Draco and sneers): So this is Draco Malfoy. Much like his father in appearance, I see, but I wonder what's on the inside? (Red eyes glow intensely).

Draco (looks into red eyes, absolutely terrified - makes terrified choking sounds).

LV: Narcissa, did you really give birth to this snivelling piece of rubbish?

NM: (Blushes, trembles in fear).

LV (drops eyes to Draco's trouser-front, lip curls in disgust) Get it out of my sight, Narcissa; even Potter was man enough not to wet himself when he faced me.
-------------------------------------
What I like about this little concoction of mine is the likely effect on Draco's ego not only of Voldemort's words: "Even Potter was man enough..." when Draco, clearly, is not, but the fact that not only is he NOT Voldemort's fair-haired boy (as he expects to be), he is beneath Voldemort's contempt... :-p



Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 10:14 pm (#828 of 1825)
LOL Muggle Doc! I can't help agreeing that Draco would not necessarily acquit himself well with LV, just because he is the son of DEs. He still flinches whenever he hears the name!

About Snape's appearance ... The Wizarding World does seem a bit behind the Muggle world here. Perhaps Snape needs a trip to Hollywood--or a copy of Glamour Magazine He is definitely a Fashion Don't. Still ... a new haircut and some shampoo for oily hair; a facial and a couple of sessions in the tanning booth; a visit to the dentist and some Crest Whitestrips--he'd be a new man. Who knows ... maybe the new man would be an improvement over the old one. Sometimes changing the outside really can help change the inside. I know it's supposed to be the other way around, but sometimes we must take an alternative route.

Solitaire



Ann - Jan 20, 2005 10:25 pm (#829 of 1825)
I would find it very hard to imagine that Snape doesn't bathe; he seems so mentally fastidious, the careful and exact way he mixes potions, the way he uses language, one would expect him to worry about being clean. I suspect his knickers are now snowy white, possibly ironed. I read a speculation somewhere that the greasy hair is actually because of all the stuff in the air in the potions laboratory, which sounded possible. After all, Harry mostly sees him at lunch or dinner after he's been teaching for hours.

The sallow complexion and hook nose don't bother me, but the teeth, yeah. Ick. Still, I know people with pretty horrible teeth, and one can learn to overlook it.

The fact that Draco and his father are not described as unattractive and are in fact described in ways that can be interpreted as attractive is another interesting contrast with Snape. Yet another one of their natural advantages. Interestingly, I read a fanfiction account that included Draco as an adult, and when I finished it I realized I'd been envisioning him as the sort of young, overfed, bigoted, upper-class lout that one sometimes sees in novels about the landed gentry. I read part of it over trying to figure out why and I couldn't--there was nothing in it that didn't seem to fit pretty well with the books; if anything, he was more intelligent and compassionate. So perhaps it was a premonition.



Eric Bailey - Jan 21, 2005 12:20 am (#830 of 1825)
LOL, poor Draco and his bladder control problem. It first surfaced during that Forbidden Forest detention, then during confrontations with Hermione.



Choices - Jan 21, 2005 9:49 am (#831 of 1825)
Maybe Draco will learn a valuable lesson - put on your Good-Nites before facing Voldemort. LOL

(For those who don't know - Good-Nites are diapers for big kids with bladder/bed wetting problems)



Elanor - Jan 21, 2005 1:53 pm (#832 of 1825)
LOL Choices!

Solitaire: Does he have any morals over which to have a dilemma?

I see Draco as being very proud of his DE family background, though he does not seem to have guts needed for really handling it. Now, Lucius failed Voldemort miserably : not only he let the prophecy broke but also he let himself get caught...

There is little doubt that he won't stay long in Azkaban but Voldemort is very likely not to be very pleased with him then. He may punish him and, that goes with it, warn him. If Draco ever witnesses Voldemort's cruelty and warning (something like "you will not fail me anymore, I'll make that sure"), this would maybe make his narrow mind start to work. It has not much worked till now so it may be rusty, but who knows?

EDIT: LOL! I've just realized that I didn't answer the question you asked Solitaire and that I quoted at the beginning of that post, sorry (the week has been long and my ideas are not very clear tonight... !) So, the answer is: I don't know if he has any morals over which to have a dilemna, but if he has one I think it can be found in his feelings for his family.

PS: Catherine, thank you so much for the compliment.



Dr Filibuster - Jan 21, 2005 3:44 pm (#833 of 1825)
Elanor, I'm really behind on the threads so sorry if this has been suggested before, but your post got me wondering.

Draco's Detour.....could Voldemort take Draco for a little trip, just to punish Lucius?

Would Volde be likely to:

1) humiliate Draco? Send him on a dangerous "mission"? Make sure he suffered some horrible and frightening experience?

2) Would he try and charm ferret-boy? Turn him against his father by ridiculing Lucius? Use Draco as a puppet to do some evil Death-nibbler stuff? Trick Draco into thinking he's one of the Dork Lards' favourites?

3) a mixture of my first two suggestions?



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2005 7:27 pm (#834 of 1825)
Dr. Filibuster-I think that Draco's Detour could be to meet Voldemort also. I read some of the posts yesterday and got a big laugh out of the wetting himself scenario.

I wonder however if Voldemort has enough of his troops back under his control to shun Draco possibly offering to try to take Harry out. Voldemort may feel "what have I got to lose, the kid goes to Hogwarts and knows Harry and wants to prove himself. So I let him try if it works then I'm rid of the pest, if he fails so what, it would show Lucius and Narcissa(sp) what happens when you fail in your service to me.

If he doesn't hurt Harry he could hurt one of the others RH.

Mikie



Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2005 9:15 pm (#835 of 1825)
It wouldn't surprise me if "Draco's Detour" is a visit with Voldemort.

If it is, it could serve one of two purposes. Draco could very easily be frightened out of his gourd the same way he was in the Forbidden Forest, and it might make him stop and think as to the advisibility of supporting Voldemort. He could also decide that if there's someone (something?) around that frightening, then he would prefer it to be on his side and help him get rid of Harry.

That's the problem with trying to figure out which direction JKR is going... she's just too sneaky by far.



Eric Bailey - Jan 21, 2005 10:02 pm (#836 of 1825)
I was thinking the Detour would be a stay at St. Mungos. When last we saw him, he was feeling a little sluggish, after all. Given the variety of hexes used, it'd probably take professionals to sort it out. then the boy probably needs some psychological counciling, maybe some medication.



Solitaire - Jan 22, 2005 1:37 am (#837 of 1825)
LOL Eric!!! A little "sluggish"!! hehehe You scamp!



Eric Bailey - Jan 22, 2005 3:35 am (#838 of 1825)
I'm picturing a Monty Python homage when he gets back. "They turned me into a slug! Well, I got better..."



Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 23, 2005 1:21 pm (#839 of 1825)
Draco definatly needs someone to smack some sense into him; even if it is his Aunt Bellatrix or Voldemort. I also wouldn't put it past Voldemort to use Draco and his little band of Death nibblers to be Errand Boys for him.



Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 6:28 pm (#840 of 1825)
Kelly: Draco definitely needs someone to smack some sense into him; even if it is his Aunt Bellatrix or Voldemort

You really believe Draco needs Voldemort or Bella "to smack some sense into him"? First of all, I'm not sure Bella actually has what I'd call sense at this point. I believe she has come somewhat "unhinged." Second, do you really believe Draco needs further "enhancement" of such qualities and abilities as Voldemort is likely to emphasize?

With all due respect, I must disagree with this suggestion. Perhaps Draco's Head-of-House would be the more appropriate person to bring him around to the appropriate attitude. Draco seems to have at least a modicum of respect for Snape. If he were so inclined, Snape might be able to utilize that respect to instill some more appropriate values and behavior in Draco. Sadly, I doubt it will happen.

Snape's behavior toward Harry in particular and his Gryffindor classmates in general in the presence of other students--especially the Slytherins--has only served to increase their sense of superiority and disdain toward the Gryffindor kids. It is sad to see someone in a position to shape behavior and attitudes fail so miserably.

But back to Draco ... He reminds me of a magical Dudley. He has been taught to think himself better than others (especially Harry). He has been taught to bully; where Uncle Vernon encouraged Dudley to hit Harry with his Smeltings stick, Malfoy probably encouraged Draco to curse his peers. He doesn't fight fairly but has his bullies around him to help him whip his targets. Both boys have been raised poorly and spoiled rotten. Alas ... earwax.

Solitaire



Wand Maker - Jan 23, 2005 6:51 pm (#841 of 1825)
You would have thought that Draco would have learned not to be so openly arrogant and adversarial toward Harry. Nearly every time he has pushed things too far, he has come off worse for wear. Punches hurt. I'm sure that curses aren't any better.

Unless Draco can master some of his Father's oration abilities, he is going to get a nasty surprise when he sees or experiences the price of failure to Voldemort.

I don't see Draco really changing his attitude. He can't make the connection between his actions and the results of them.



Solitaire - Jan 24, 2005 12:14 am (#842 of 1825)
I don't see Draco really changing his attitude. He can't make the connection between his actions and the results of them.

Good point, Wand Maker.



Ann - Jan 24, 2005 2:41 pm (#843 of 1825)
Solitaire, I suspect Snape does not see it as his responsibility to "shape behavior and attitudes." Obviously a teacher should discourage inappropriate behavior where it affects the functioning of his class, but "shaping" behavior in general seems a bit much. And shaping attitudes strikes me as impinging even more radically on the responsibilities of parents. (And I blame Draco's behavior and attitudes far more on Lucius than on his lap dog!)

Not to mention the fact that there might be very serious consequences to Snape, and possibly the whole anti-Voldemort movement, should he decide to teach (or even show) Draco that Gryffindors and non-pure-bloods should be respected.

I don't think Snape is going to survive book 7, but I kind of hope he does, since it would be extremely interesting to find out how mean and nasty he is on his own and how much of it was an attitude he assumed to cover his spying activities.



Solitaire - Jan 25, 2005 1:16 am (#844 of 1825)
But Snape did help shape Draco's attitude. When a teacher indulges in persistently belittling, bullying, and demeaning a student in front of others students, he sends a tacit message that this behavior is acceptable. If this is not shaping kids' attitudes by modeling, I do not know what is.

Most of the other kids probably have parents who do not teach them that they are superior to everyone else. Kids like Draco, however--who already feel a sense of superiority over and disdain for others--take such behavior as absolute permission to behave just as abominably as the teacher himself. And why not? They know there will be no consequences, unless McGonagall catches them.

As I've said before, this is a moot issue for me to discuss. I'll never change my opinion about the way Snape treats students. His behavior, in my eyes, is disgusting, contemptible, and inexcusable.

Solitaire



Ann - Jan 25, 2005 5:46 am (#845 of 1825)
Solitaire, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you here--I agree with you that Snape's behavior is disgusting and contemptible; I think the jury is still out on whether there might be some excuses for it, though I agree that excuses wouldn't change what it is.

But my point is that, while Snape is very much to blame for reinforcing the bigotry that Lucius has instilled in Draco, it is essentially Lucius's fault. Teachers should not be held responsible for their students' behavior. They can make a tremendous positive difference (and I'm sure from your posts that you do), but it is not really their responsibility to do so. Snape seems to me to be much more focused on his subject than on teaching his students how to behave; I suspect he'd be great with graduate students. But, however badly suited Snape is to secondary school teaching, Draco is Lucius's fault. (And probably also Narcissa's.)



Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 7:36 am (#846 of 1825)
This remind me of a teacher I knew, who worked with very small children (3 or 4 years old). Each year, in September, the first thing she told to parents was "I'm not here to love your children". Often parens were very shocked but she explained them that they had responsability for loving them and show them how they should behave when she had the responsability to teach them how to live with other kids, and awaken their intelligence. But that woman was a very kind person, though her words were severe.

In fact, I agree with both of you Solitaire and Ann, Snape's attitude with Draco may encourage him bullying Harry but the true responsibles of what he is are his parents. Besides, the other teachers don't tolerate that attitude so it should influence Draco as well but no (he even didn't learn his lesson after the ferret episode). Which means that he knows that someone will always stand up for him against Potter: Snape helps, but Lucius is the one Draco always complains to when things don't go as he wants. "when my father will hear..." seems to be his favourite sentence! (But that doesn't excuse Snape's behaviour towards Harry, I agree with you Solitaire).



Solitaire - Jan 25, 2005 8:31 am (#847 of 1825)
I feel a bit like Harry when he was speaking Parseltongue without realizing it. I suppose what I am trying to say--apparently without much success--is something akin to the old proverb: What you do speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say. One does not have to intend to teach something in order to teach it. Whether or not Snape intended to shape behaviors is not the point. The fact that he did help shape them is the point.

As a teacher--particularly in a live-away school like Hogwarts--Snape spends more days of the year with the kids than their own parents. Like it or not, how kids see the adults in their world treat others goes a long way toward determining how the kids themselves behave towards others. If Snape's Pensieve is true, he is a perfect example of this. Living in an abusive environment where he probably saw abuse and WAS abused on a regular basis, he became an abuser of sorts.

The simple fact is that when a teacher is in charge of kids, it is incumbent upon that teacher to model appropriate behavior. Too many times I've heard kids make statements like this: "Why should I be respectful to John? Even Mrs. X says he is a loser!" Mrs. X may not have set about teaching kids to treat each other with contempt, but she taught it all the same. Every time she demeaned and humiliated a student in front of his peers, she confirmed that it was acceptable to do so.

You are correct that Snape probably could not have changed Draco's attitudes; they are most likely too deeply inculcated. He might, however, have helped to influence POSITIVELY instead of NEGATIVELY the manner in which kids like Draco treated others.

Solitaire



Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 8:44 am (#848 of 1825)
LOL Solitaire! In fact, I do agree with you! I was just saying that Snape is not the only responsible for Draco's attitude. He certainly encourages it (which he shouldn't do) and had not the influence he should have had on him.

But I wonder if Draco's attitude would have really been different if Snape had had another attitude towards him. Maybe, or he would have acted the same but on the quiet when any teacher, Snape included, would have been near him. What do you think?



Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 11:07 am (#849 of 1825)
I agree with Solitaire (not a surprise) on this. While I think Snape is on the side of good, his interactions with Draco are giving the impression that whatever Draco says or does is just fine.

If you look at the things he says to Harry, they really apply to Draco. Draco has no respect for rules and is as arrogant and self-important as his father.

Snape is doing a disservice to Draco by encouraging his behavior, but I think Snape enjoys the way he treats Draco as much as he enjoys the way he treats Harry.

Draco is allowed, through Snape's obvious words and actions or sometimes inactions, to think he is superior to everyone else, to get by with saying things others would be punished for, to do things others would be punished for, and to continue being a spoiled, whiny, sulky brat.

McGonagall expects her house members to follow the rules, and when they don't they get punished. She is a kind-hearted woman, and will make an occasional exception, but she is strict with everyone.

Draco may not be learning his behavior from Snape, but he is learning that he can do pretty much anything he wants if Snape is the only authority figure in the vicinity.

Snape treats Draco almost the same way Vernon treats Dudley.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 25, 2005 1:37 pm (#850 of 1825)
Also might I add Weeny Owl that Snape treats Draco exactly as Lucius treats Draco. I agree with Solitaire that Draco might not have accepted positive reinforcement from Snape but giving him the negative reinforcement has only made the situation worst.

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Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 25, 2005 5:38 pm (#851 of 1825)
I hope Bella doesn't act the same way around Draco as Marge Dursley acts around Dudley. But then again she is crazy and sadistic so she might try and use him for target practice when Narcissa isn't looking



Wand Maker - Jan 25, 2005 5:57 pm (#852 of 1825)
Mikie: I don't know. I always thought that Lucius was a bit of a bully to Draco. Maybe to toughen him up, maybe just to show him his place (and passing that kind of thinking on). Snape, has yet to say anything negative to Draco.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 25, 2005 8:23 pm (#853 of 1825)
I disagree Wand Maker. Lucius is rather ashamed of Draco. Afterall he gave the boy his name, gave him a carefree life, has apparently given him all the material needs that a boy could ask for and what does he get in return. A weeney little coward whose grades are worse than a muggle born girl, who has not gotten the better of Harry Potter in 5 years and who continues to allow those pesty Weasley's to get the better of him also. I see Lucius being more than just a little peeved at Draco. Snape may even feel a little sorry for Draco being brought up in that type of environment.

Mikie

You realize of course that I am being very facieous with these comments.



Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 10:57 pm (#854 of 1825)
Okay, Mikie... put up your wings and fight. There's nothing wrong with being Weeny.

I think Lucius was disappointed with Draco and the grades, but the way I read the whole Bogin & Burkes scene is different than most read it.

Granted Lucius seems cold and uncaring, but what struck me as pertinent was when Draco went into a huge diatribe about Harry and Quidditch, and Lucius said something about Draco having already told him that at least a dozen times.

If Lucius were horrible to Draco, he wouldn't put up with listening to Draco whine for at least a dozen times. Even if it's in letters during the school year, it averages to over one pity party per month. If it's just the Christmas holidays and summer break, then it averages out to much more than that. Lucius showed incredible patience considering.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 26, 2005 6:15 am (#855 of 1825)
Was reading SS again, where Harry and Dumbledore are talking. Harry asks Dumbledore about Snape and his father hating each other. And Dumbledore replys ""Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr.Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive..."

Could Harry perhaps do the same to Draco resulting in Draco's detour?



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 26, 2005 11:55 am (#856 of 1825)
No offend meant Weeny Owl we can all see that you are a proud and formittable owl.

Mikie



Weeny Owl - Jan 26, 2005 1:09 pm (#857 of 1825)
I know, Mikie. I was just teasing you.

I don't know about Draco's detour being Harry saving him, but I like that idea. Draco would be infuriated if he owed Harry a life debt.



Wand Maker - Jan 26, 2005 6:05 pm (#858 of 1825)
Mikie, your probably right (more ashamed than bullying). When Draco was still able to speak after coming out on the losing end of a meet, his favorite words were "my father". That seems to indicate that Lucius probably paid considerable attention to Draco.



Tomoé - Jan 26, 2005 9:40 pm (#859 of 1825)
TBE -> "And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive..."
Could Harry perhaps do the same to Draco resulting in Draco's detour?

Well, I'm not sure who is the Snape of their generation, Draco or Harry? Sure the family relation would link Harry to James, but maybe Harry's circumstances are closer to Snape's than James's. Or maybe I should get a place in St Mungo's.



Ann - Jan 27, 2005 8:39 am (#860 of 1825)
Very interesting observation, Tomoé! James does seem to have been as rich and privileged and arrogant as Draco. But, one assumes, far more open than Draco is to non-pure-blood friends and lovers, and far less open to dark magic.

And I have always thought Harry was rather like Snape, in his bullied home life, his thoughtfulness about his own moral dilemmas, and, ultimately, his dedication to the cause. But of course you can't fault James on the last, either.



Tomoé - Jan 27, 2005 6:52 pm (#861 of 1825)
The likeliness between Harry/Snape and Harry/James are pretty even, Harry is neither closer to the first nor to the last. His circumstances are closer to Snape's, but his personality is closer to ... well ... Lily? He share James's courage and sense of rightness (both shreiking shack scene), and he share his daring and imagination to bypass the rules (though not for the same reasons).

So let's take the question by the other end, what does Draco and Snape have in common? They are a nasty Slytherins. Is that all. Is that enough?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 27, 2005 7:04 pm (#862 of 1825)
As many times as Harry has bested Draco I do believe that Draco could never forgive or forget if Harry saved his life. I think that Draco would react to that situation the same as Snape did James. I think a life debt or oweing Harry anything else would be like a festering wound to Draco.

Edit: I really hate it when I know what I mean and can't spit it out! :-P



Tomoé - Jan 27, 2005 8:47 pm (#863 of 1825)
You meant "Draco and Snape are both grundges bearer", which is quite true.



Fred Cringe - Jan 30, 2005 4:53 am (#864 of 1825)
TwinklingBlueEyes: As many times as Harry has bested Draco I do believe that Draco could never forgive or forget if Harry saved his life. I think that Draco would react to that situation the same as Snape did James. I think a life debt or oweing Harry anything else would be like a festering wound to Draco.

That's the reason why I believe that Draco will never reform. He's obsessed about Harry and with ways of defeating/besting him. From reading the books so far, one doesn't get the impression that Harry gives Draco much thought - more like "Out of sight, out of mind". Hermione has the same attitude while, admittedly, Ron does have a bit of a I wonder what Malfoy's up to streak.

Draco, on the other hand, invents songs, badges, jokes etc to get at HRH. He just can't let go of it at all and, as we've read/discussed, it blinds him to what else is going on around him. With Lucius in Azkaban, Draco is setting himself up to be a tragicomic figure in HBP. Grandiosely carrying on as if he still has power/influence while, in reality, it all slips through his fingers.



Ann - Jan 30, 2005 9:44 am (#865 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would acknowledge a life debt to Harry, at least if he incurred it soon after the end of OotP. Snape seems to be punctilious about such things as honor; I'm sure he pays all his debts, and as quickly as possible. In contrast, Draco doesn't give a...er...hoot about such things. I think if Harry saved his life, he'd be just as ready to attack Harry afterwards as he was before.



Fred Cringe - Jan 30, 2005 9:55 am (#866 of 1825)
Ann: In contrast, Draco doesn't give a...er...hoot about such things. I think if Harry saved his life, he'd be just as ready to attack Harry afterwards as he was before.

Indeed. Knowing Ferret Boy, he'd just come up with several lame reasons as to why the Life Debt didn't apply to him. Perfectly justified in Draco's mind of course.



Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 10:25 am (#867 of 1825)
You are correct, Fred ... Harry really doesn't give much thought to Draco unless immediately confronted with him; and he tends to forget about him once he is out of his way. Draco, on the other hand, seems to be obsessed with Harry and the Trio, doesn't he?

I'd never really thought about it before, but you're right. Harry has frequently risen to Draco's bait in his presence--although I got the idea that might have changed at the end of OotP--but he tends to forget about Draco when he leaves his sight. Hermione realizes Draco is a prejudiced and ignorant brat and tries to ignore him as much as possible. Ron, however, often seems to take Draco's comments and meanness a bit more to heart. Hmmmmmmm ...

Solitaire



Fred Cringe - Jan 30, 2005 2:30 pm (#868 of 1825)
Well, Ronald is rather touchy about the fact that his family aren't well off. I mean, he gets annoyed even when Harry or Hermione mention money and acts as if they are mocking him in the same manner Draco does. And Draco isn't one to miss an easy target like that when it's presented to him.

Harry has lots of more important things on his mind other than Draco and Hermione is too smart to rise to the bait. Unfortunately, Ron is the weakest link in this regard - hopefully this won't lead to any problems between HRH in the next two books.



wwtMask - Jan 31, 2005 9:18 am (#869 of 1825)
It is my opinion that Draco has gone from being Harry's problem to being Ron's problem. Harry knows he has bigger fish to fry and, as much as he hates Draco, he can't be bothered with him. The last verbal exchange between them said it all: compared to Voldemort, the Anti-Trio is barely a warm up to Harry. They are beneath his notice and his skill level is high enough for them to be a minimal threat. Ron seems to hate Draco more and is due for some retribution from the Anti-Trio. More importantly, he doesn't have a Dark Lord who is his primary enemy.



timrew - Jan 31, 2005 5:59 pm (#870 of 1825)
Well said, wwtMask. Harry no longer cares about Draco because he could swat him (and Crabbe and Goyle) like the annoying flies they are.

He now has bigger fish to fry with Voldemort. And, although I think Book 6 will go against him, he will eventually triumph in book 7...............



wwtMask - Feb 1, 2005 9:18 am (#871 of 1825)
Harry no longer cares about Draco because he could swat him (and Crabbe and Goyle) like the annoying flies they are.

Hey, aren't they learning Human Transfiguration this year? I can just see the Anti-Trio flying for their lives while Ron sends a transfigured flyswatter after them!



Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 6:37 pm (#872 of 1825)
Draco might start focusing his energies towards Ron, but he will find that Ron has more friends that will come to his aid. Draco will still come out worse for wear if he trys anything.



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 8:21 pm (#873 of 1825)
If Draco believes he will stand a better chance with Ron, he will be sadly mistaken. Ron doesn't have a broken wand anymore and will be more than ready for anything Draco can throw at him. I expect would look forward to it.

Mikie



Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 8:29 pm (#874 of 1825)
Sometime, Draco is going to have to be very publicly humiliated by one of the three before he realizes that he can't continue with his overt verbal jabs. It will require that one of the three snap (again) because they are far better at discounting what Draco says.



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 8:31 pm (#875 of 1825)
Well being turned into a giant slug is pretty himiliating if you ask me.

Mikie



Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 8:37 pm (#876 of 1825)
Yes, that is fairly humiliating, but how public was that really? And was Draco and his cronies able to retain experiences while they were slugs?

I think that Draco's worst fear might be being totaly ostracized.



Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 6:48 am (#877 of 1825)
I think the Slug incident was fairly public. The way rumors fly among students, I would be very surprised if many students didn't decide to take a little peek inside the luggage rack. Draco annoyed many people with Inquisitorial Squad activities, and from just being an all-around git.

I imagine that appearing as a slug on platform 9 3/4 would be fairly humiliating and public.

As for Draco's worst fear, I don't think ostracism is quite it. I think he would suffer more from a demotion in his status. He takes great pride in his father having money, in being a pure-blood, in his father's influence at the Ministry of Magic. I think Draco would hate being poor like Ron, or losing all the perks that have come from being Lucius Malfoy's son. Or imagine if he wasn't really a pure-blood? Oh, that would wipe the smirk off of his smug face.



Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 8:23 am (#878 of 1825)
Wait until Draco finds out that Voldemort is not a pure-blood. Or do you think he already knows? Did Lucius and Bella and the others already know back in the Ministry, before Harry said something? I can't remember how much Voldemort said in the graveyard scene. I know he mentioned it again to Harry. Did he say it to the others, as well?

Solitaire

PS Wouldn't it be interesting to ultimately learn that Slytherin himself was not a pure-blood ... and Gryffindor WAS? hehe Sorry, I couldn't help giggling at that idea.



Fred Cringe - Feb 2, 2005 10:16 am (#879 of 1825)
Oh, I'd reckon Lucius knows that Voldemort isn't a pure blood. There's not much gets by Mr. Malfoy is there? As to Draco knowing, I'd say not, Lucius would keep that little snippet of information quiet until it could be used to his best advantage.



Muggle Doctor - Feb 2, 2005 2:35 pm (#880 of 1825)
I think it was Ron who would have given a great deal to see the look on Narcissa Malfoy's face when Slug-Draco was carried off the train. I'm more interested in looking inside Lucius' head when he finds out what happened. In a way, it's a pity he's (at least temporarily) in Azkaban - but his imagination will probably fill in for him what his eyes didn't see, and he will almost certainly wonder what a useless thing he has spawned.

Sorry, Lucius: that's what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket (or, as the case may be, under one toad...)



Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 2:50 pm (#881 of 1825)
I think it was Ron who would have given a great deal to see the look on Narcissa Malfoy's face when Slug-Draco was carried off the train.

Actually, it was Ernie who said that. It's great that kids from other houses are taking satisfaction from seeing Draco laid low.

I imagine that Lucius would have a great deal of unpleasant things to say to Draco if he hears of the incident; something akin to what he said in CoS about Hermione beating him in every subject.

I almost feel sorry for Draco, thinking about it. Almost, but not quite.



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 2, 2005 3:53 pm (#882 of 1825)
Draco's worst fear. Being neighbors to the Weasley's in a one level burrow.

Mikie



timrew - Feb 2, 2005 3:54 pm (#883 of 1825)
Yes, I think Draco, Crabbe and Goyle have lost whatever 'street-cred' they had at Hogwarts.

All that the three of them could do right now is to get a transfer to Durmstrang; but there, I believe they would find it even worse.

There, they would be the lowest of the low, the bums of scum, the black sheep of iniquity, squirming vermin, seriously inadequate worms that have been swallowed by the early bird, nibblers on page three of the Quibbler.........oh, I could go on and on; but I don't want to bore you.



Eric Bailey - Feb 2, 2005 7:32 pm (#884 of 1825)
Never mind Lucius finding out about the train incident, what about the scene in Umbridge's office, where Draco and his goons couldn't contain four unarmed students for five minutes? This would be especially upsetting to Lucius, considering those four immediately found Harry and Hermione, went to the DoM, and turned what should have been a simple raid for the Death Eaters into a huge mess, and, ultimatly, defeat. Lucius is in prison because of his son's incompetence. Draco had especially better hope his dear Aunt Bellatrix doesn't find out, and decide that, since her sister and brother-in-law didn't discipline Draco, she will. It'd be a trip to the woodshed for that boy. Smile



Ann - Feb 2, 2005 8:09 pm (#885 of 1825)
No, do go on, timrew. Nice to hear them brought low using Draco's own methods--but more elegantly!



Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 8:22 pm (#886 of 1825)
We could never be bored by you, Tim, the King of Spew.

Now, as to Draco, after the slug incident, he might be Prince of Ewwww!

Just a thought...



Steve Newton - Feb 3, 2005 4:36 am (#887 of 1825)
Eric, we don't know all of what happened in Umbridge's office but indications are that it wa pretty exciting. Didn't Ginny and Neville do well? Yes, a very black mark (ha ha)against Draco.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 6, 2005 7:23 pm (#888 of 1825)
Hmm, Draco living in a burrow. Considering ferrets in the wild live in burrows, yeah, it fits. LOL



Kelly Kapaoski - Feb 9, 2005 2:49 am (#889 of 1825)
Bellatrix and Voldemort will definatly be getting the first crack at Draco after Narcissa gets done with him



Denise P. - Feb 9, 2005 7:13 am (#890 of 1825)
I doubt Bella or Voldemort would be interested enough in Draco to do anything to him. In the grand scheme of things, he is all bluster and seems to have little significance other than to annoy Harry.



Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 8:10 am (#891 of 1825)
I don't see where Voldemort or Bella would even be thinking about Draco at this point. Thus far, he does not seem to have done anything requiring their attention.

Narcissa may be annoyed because his failure to correctly assess his surroundings on the train once again resulted in his receiving a good hexing. Perhaps she may have some tactical pointers for him. Then again, she may want to plan with him about some actions he needs to take on his father's behalf. Or she may send him on "Draco's Detour," whatever that is.

Solitaire



Eric Bailey - Feb 9, 2005 4:54 pm (#892 of 1825)
We were thinking more in terms of Bella or Lucius finding out about what happened in Umbridge's office, and how Draco's inability to contain four unarmed students with a fully armed goon squad for five minutes led directly to the mess the Death Eaters found themselves in in the DoM. They were planning a quick raid, and maybe a solo Harry, not an armed, and ready, DA squad. Draco and his Death Nibblers had the DA raiding squad handed to him, unarmed, so they shouldn't have been a factor. The Death Nibblers not being anywhere near the level of the DA members (who, for the most part, had never worked together as a combat unit) is, at best, an embarrassment, at worst, what cost the Death Eaters the Prophesy. This is the first time one of Draco's screw ups affected the Death Eaters, directly.



Choices - Feb 9, 2005 6:44 pm (#893 of 1825)
I have to disagree - first of all, who is going to tell Lucius or Bellatrix? Also, the DA managed to hold the DE's off for a good while thanks to their training and cleverness, so if some of them managed to best Draco and his bunch it is no worse. It was Harry and Hermione who tricked Umbridge - that can't be blamed on Draco as he wasn't in the forest. Umbridge was directing Draco and his bunch, so as their leader I think the blame rests with her. I just don't see how Bellatrix or Lucius could blame Draco for what happened. After all, he is a kid and not a trained DE.



Steve Newton - Feb 9, 2005 8:20 pm (#894 of 1825)
"After all, he is a kid and not a trained DE."

Somehow, I don't think that the 'just a kid' argument is going to draw much water.



Mrs Brisbee - Feb 9, 2005 8:32 pm (#895 of 1825)
I think Choices is right. It would be the height of petulance to blame Draco for the DEs failure at the DoM. I don't see any evidence that Umbridge, Draco, or any of the goon squad were aware of Voldy's plot. In fact, if they had managed to detain Harry (and it seems Dolores had every intention of doing so) they would have ruined Voldy's well laid plans. And while the DEs probably were only expecting the trio at best, that ten DEs had trouble with six kids is still not Draco's fault. The DEs still would have won had the Order not shown up.



Eric Bailey - Feb 9, 2005 8:44 pm (#896 of 1825)
Sure, Draco had nothing to do with what happened to Umbridge, but he had everything to do with his Death Nibblers, even with the numbers advantage, losing to the unarmed Ron, Neville, Ginny, and Luna. While I'm sure Lucius and Bella wouldn't expect the Death Nibblers to be on the DE level, or able to take on a squad of Aurors, they WOULD expect them to be able to deal with their peers. The Sextet are "just kids", too, a couple of them younger than Draco. So, when six armed Death Nibblers, with Draco leading them, can't contain four unarmed DAers who's leader is elsewhere, Lucius and Bella are going to see a problem, if they find out what happened.

Of course, the fact that the Sextet DID manage to hold off a dozen Death Eaters for a decent amount of time would raise expectations for the Death Nibblers. They wouldn't have been expected by Lucius and Bella to hold off Aurors before, but now, they'd expect as good a performance from Draco and company against Aurors as the Sextet had angainst Death Eaters.

Not that Draco has anything to worry about. How's Aunt Bella going to know? The Death Eaters would need someone to have been reading Harry's mind during the whole thing to find out... Uh oh...



Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 9:04 pm (#897 of 1825)
How are Lucius and Bella (or any of the DEs, for that matter) even going to find out about this, unless the kids tell them ... and why would they? If you were Draco, would you tell your parents about your part in this little ... um ... debacle?

Solitaire

Edit: Since Harry wasn't actually present when Ginny, Neville, Ron and Luna overpowered the DNs, I do not see that any details of that confrontation would be in his mind to be read by anyone ... nor do I see him giving it much thought once they were on their way to the Ministry. I don't really think it's an issue.



pottermom34 - Feb 9, 2005 9:45 pm (#898 of 1825)
I honestly think the only thing Lucious will do is turn his nose up at Draco I don't think he thinks too highly of his son anyway, judging from the reaction on his face when Draco played Quidditch (in the CoS movie)and in CoS (I think) didn't he tell Draco "we have to be nice to mr. Potter". also look at when they were in the shop in Knockturn alley when Draco touched something and he got upset. From what I can see Lucious wouldn't be surprised at Draco's screw - ups. In fact I think what might humiliate Draco would be if Lucious kicked him like he did Dobby for not getting a spell right or something silly like that.



Eric Bailey - Feb 9, 2005 11:04 pm (#899 of 1825)
I can't picture Lucius taking Draco's shortcomings lightly. He has a thing about bloodlines and superiority, and having his own son as living proof that his beliefs are false is something he wouldn't abide. Bellatrix would be especaiily upset about it...

Narcissa: What are YOU doing here?!!! If you're seen...

Bellatrix: I know... But, I needed to come.

Narcissa: Why?!!

Bellatrix: Has Draco recovered from his sluggish condition?

Narcissa: Yes... We had to detour to St. Mungos, but he's back to normal, now. Rather shaken, but physically intact. But, while I'm glad you're concerned, you should have found another way to contact me. The risk...

Bellatrix: He's physically intact? Good. I need a... word with him.

Narcissa: Why?

Bellatrix: Cissy, Cissy, Cissy... You know what happened. Your son, my nephew, is dishonoring the family name. And, since you have been lax with his discipline, I must do it. You've spoiled him, and now he is weak and useless. As our father always said, "Spare the Crucio, spoil the child".

Narcissa: Sigh... Bella, we've talked about this, before. It's child abuse, AND illegal.

Bellatrix: That's what I expect the bleeding hearts to say. Our father crucioed me all the time, and I came out fine.

Narcissa: (sarcastic) Yes, and it had NO effect on your mental stability...

Bellatrix: Exactly. Now, where's my favorite nephew?



dizzy lizzy - Feb 9, 2005 11:34 pm (#900 of 1825)
That's not bad Eric. Funny... and very sad in a way. It shows up the not so nice aspects of the Malfoy family very clearly I think. Both from Draco parents attitude towards him and a guess at Bella's attitude towards the rest of her family.

Given she is an unknown quantity, and that she and Lucius may find out that Draco didn't do to well against the DA, I'd be a pretty worried boy by now.

Lizzy

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Weeny Owl - Feb 10, 2005 1:27 am (#901 of 1825)
I highly disagree with Lucius being abusive with Draco, and I highly agree with what has been said about Lucius, Bella, Voldemort, etc. caring about what happened in Umbridge's office. They have much more important fish to fry than that small debacle.

As for Lucius being abusive, first of all, anything that happened in the movies that didn't also happen in the books isn't canon. It's movie contamination.

I have a different take on the Borgin and Burkes scene than many do, and I've already written it out but don't feel like looking for it on this thread right now. Needless to say, I see the Malfoys as being the magical equivalent of the Dursleys. I see Draco as the same spoiled, whiny, bullying creep that Dudley is. I see Vernon and Lucius as being the same self-important, appearances-are-everything adult bullies. We havent' seen enough of Narcissa to truly compare her to Petunia.

I really can't imagine Bella caring what Draco does or doesn't do unless it affects the plan for the take-over of the Wizarding World. What happened in Umbridge's office didn't have an impact, really, because when it comes down to it, and what others have said, is that if twelve experienced Death Easters cannot thwart a half-dozen schoolchildren, why should Draco be expected to?



Solitaire - Feb 10, 2005 3:08 am (#902 of 1825)
I agree with you, Weeny, although I don't even see Lucius and Bella learning about the business in Umbridge's office. I also agree that the Malfoys appear to be "magical" versions of the Dursleys--although the narrative certainly gives Lucius a smoother (oilier?) and more "aristocratic" bearing than Uncle Vernon, who is described as red-faced and blustery. Movies certainly help to emphasize this distinction, although I think it is pretty apparent from the books.

I don't think Lucius seems abusive in B&B--he just seems fed up with Draco's whining and complaining about HP. He tells Draco, "You have told me this at least a dozen times already." In this respect he does seem a bit more "aware" of his own child's shortcomings than Uncle Vernon. I believe Lucius probably agrees with Draco's assessment of Harry, but he points out that it is unwise to appear to dislike Harry, since most of the WW considers him to be the hero who made Voldemort disappear.

As for Bella, she seems too absorbed in her own business to even give Draco a split-second of thought. She appears (to me) to be mentally "unhinged." I wouldn't doubt she receives a little "discipline" for her role in the loss of the prophecy, once she and Voldemort are safely away from the DoM. I rather expect her to be one who goes out in a blaze--probably not of glory, but spectacularly, nonetheless--either in book 6 or 7.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Feb 10, 2005 4:49 am (#903 of 1825)
I can definitely see Bella going out that way, Solitaire. "Unhinged" seems to describes her perfectly.

Lucius was remarkably patient considering how much Draco was whining. It wasn't until Draco interrupted the business transaction that Lucius seemed to be losing his patience. If Draco had been whining to me a dozen times about something, I'd have sent him to timeout long before this. Frankly, he would have managed just one or two whines before timeout.



Eric Bailey - Feb 10, 2005 5:11 am (#904 of 1825)
Oh, I wasn't implying that the Malfoys have abused Draco. Clearly, they've spoiled the boy rotton. I just think Bella would go the opposite extreme, as she is clearly damaged, and that's made her abusive and sadistic.

That said, though, I think Lucius and Bella would both be VERY disappointed in Draco's performance. Their families are obsessed with their bloodlines. That's what gives them their sense of superiority. They'd expect him to not only match, but surpass, Harry and, especially, the "filthy mudblood" Hermione. The Sextet's performance against the Death Eaters would just increase their expectations of Draco. They wouldn't think "Well, he's just a kid", because so are the Sextet. Before, they just expected him to be able to surpass Harry at quiddich, and Hermione, scholastically. Now, well... The Death Nibblers had better be able to handle DA, at the very least.

Draco's parents are pinning the future of two old, wealthy, pureblood families on him. The superiority of their status is everything they believe in, everything they're about. Draco is the last pureblood Black, and, it seems, the last Malfoy. Imagine you're Bellatrix, with the same view of how important your family is that Mrs. Black had. With your cousin dead, you are now Head of the Black family. But, you are without children, so your heir is your sister, Andromeda (At least, according to the Lexicon's Black Family Tree). That means the next in line, the future Heir of The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, "Toujours Pur", is... Nymphadora Tonks.

If you're Bellatrix Black Lestrange, how horrifying is that to contemplate? Your niece, you think, takes after you, a true warrior, and would do well under your wing, but she's, unfortunatly, a halfblood. So, all your hopes for your family's future now rest on your nephew. He MUST measure up to his expectations, his responsibilities. So, the standard for what's expected of him, and the Death Nibblers, is the Sextet.

Now, granted, how well one does in battle normally isn't how you'd judge someone's worth as a future leader of the family, but this IS Bellatrix we're talking about. Her name means "Warrior". She's not going to tolerate a cowardly wimp as her heir, someone who can't contain four unarmed peers while backed with fully armed troops, someone who gets himself turned into a giant slug. Draco might want to rethink his Death Eater ambitions. He's only safe from his aunt because she's a fugitive. If he seeks HER out, she's going to want to "make a man" out of him.



Solitaire - Feb 10, 2005 8:05 am (#905 of 1825)
A lot has been said on the DA thread about the kids not using Unforgiveables. I have a feeling Draco would use them--if not the AK, I surely believe he would attempt Crucio or Imperio on Harry. His hatred, too, runs deeply enough that he might be able to do some harm. Do you think Draco would be able to use the AK on HP or anyone else? Just wondering how others feel about this with regard to him ...

Solitaire



Choices - Feb 10, 2005 10:06 am (#906 of 1825)
PotterMom - I know it is just movie contamination, but I too always see that look of disgust on Malfoy's face when Draco messes up in the Quidditch game in Chamber of Secrets. Even in the books their relationship seems to me to be one of love/toleration. I think Lucius "loves" Draco (if a DE is capable of love) because he is his son, but on the other hand he seems to only tolerate him being around - maybe expecting him to be perfect and somewhat disappointed that he isn't. I think it is Draco's mother that dotes on him and spoils him and it is Lucius that maybe expects too much to soon out of Draco.



pottermom34 - Feb 10, 2005 4:53 pm (#907 of 1825)
maybe even it's not so much he expects too much out of him, but that he expects him to be able to play and do magic better than a "half-blood" and he's not. Maybe he's just disgusted with his son that harry being half-blood is better than he is (being pure-blood)at things. I agree it probably is his mother that spoils him.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 27, 2005 6:20 am (#908 of 1825)
I was rewatching COS and noticed while in Flourish & Blotts right before Draco confronts Harry,Draco was walking down the stairs and tore off a piece of paper from a book and pocketed it.I dont recall reading this in the book.Does anyone know the significance?I'm sorry if this has been discussed eons ago but I'm s l o w .Thanks.



Phoenix song - Feb 27, 2005 9:35 am (#909 of 1825)
Madame Pomfrey, you're definitely not slow...this is a question that has plagued us all. I think that the movie directors used this snippet of a scene to show us Malfoy's destructive, selfish, and "thievish" behavior. It also may be a symbolic clue that points us to him (or his father/family) "concealing" information, as the pocketing of a page of a book is--in essence-- hiding information, although in an extremely ineffective manner. These are just my thoughts, of course!

Barbie



Choices - Feb 27, 2005 10:12 am (#910 of 1825)
We also have the scene (in the movie) when Harry and Ron go into the Slytherin common room as Crabbe and Goyle and Draco takes the small gift from the desk and sticks it in his pocket after asking if it belongs to either of them. He definitely has "thieving" tendencies. Isn't the Hand of Glory supposed to be of help to thieves?



Phoenix song - Feb 27, 2005 12:06 pm (#911 of 1825)
You're right, Choices. The small present scene also depicts Malfoy as a thief. He was also very interested in the Hand of Glory. Doesn't Lucius rebuke Mr. Borgin for praising Malfoy's interest in the Hand by stating that he would hope that Malfoy would amount to more than a common thief? Maybe these are all subtle clues that show us even more than what is at Draco's core being, but also show us his future predilections.

Barbie



Solitaire - Feb 27, 2005 1:07 pm (#912 of 1825)
I'm sure I've read somewhere that Draco already has the Hand of Glory. Would this have been in a chat or perhaps on JKR's site ... or is this just someone's guess and not substantiated anywhere?

If he is in possession of the Hand, how and when did he get it? Did Lucius buy it for him? Given his comment in B&B, it does not really sound like he wants Draco to have it. Would it be the kind of thing Narcissa might get for Draco (after he mentions it) without having told Lucius? Draco gets plenty of "care packages" from home. I'm sure all of them have more than just sweets and treats.

Solitaire



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 27, 2005 3:57 pm (#913 of 1825)
Solitaire-I have wondered about that also. I can't remember reading anywhere that Draco already has the Hand of Glory. Would like to see some canon so I can remove it from my list of questions to ask JKR.

Mikie



Solitaire - Feb 27, 2005 4:22 pm (#914 of 1825)
Mikie, I believe I have read it in posts here on the Forum, although it was some months ago that it was under discussion. What I am curious about is whether the one(s) who posted it found it in a chat somewhere ... or just surmised it.

Solitaire



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 27, 2005 4:26 pm (#915 of 1825)
Thanks for all the responses.I had forgotten about the gift Draco swiped.I think The Hand Of Glory has been suggested by some that this is what Draco might be after in Draco's Detour or something like that.I would like to know what the Hand Of Glory will be used for.The word Glory suggests bliss,honor,contentment etc.How could a beautiful word like that be connected to a device of thieves?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 27, 2005 4:29 pm (#916 of 1825)
JKR from an October 2000 interview on Scholastic.com:

Question: Did you ever make a study of herbs and other Hogwarts subjects, or did you create all those classes from inspiration? J.K. Rowling responds: Most of the magic is made up. Occasionally I will use something that people used to believe was true — for example, the "Hand of Glory" which Draco gets from Borgin and Burkes in Chamber of Secrets.



Solitaire - Feb 27, 2005 5:03 pm (#917 of 1825)
Thanks, Twinkles. I wish we knew when exactly he got it.



Fred Cringe - Feb 28, 2005 9:24 am (#918 of 1825)
Presumably it's just one of those plot devices where JKR has inferred rather than explicitly stated something in the books.

Similarly, when Draco mentions "Dogging" in OotP. Harry wonders if Lucius had seen Sirius on the platform but there's no mention in the book that Lucius was actually at the station when they're boarding the Hogwarts Express.



Steve Newton - Feb 28, 2005 9:28 am (#919 of 1825)
Is it obvious how Lucius would have recognized Sirius? He didn't go to school with him, Sirius is not registered. Maybe I missed something obvious. (It wouldn't be the first time.)



Catherine - Feb 28, 2005 9:33 am (#920 of 1825)
In OoP, it was assumed that Wormtail would have told Voldemort about Sirius's disguise.

I'm sure that Lucius is clever enough to realize that the big black dog accompanying Harry is Sirius in his Animagus form.



Mistress Gim - Feb 28, 2005 8:44 pm (#921 of 1825)
What about the idea that Draco is evil? In earlier posts, the thought was that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree (I remember someone used that). Perhaps because I'm partial to the 'antihero' type, but some of the things Draco says seem more warnings than insults - and not the warning that Harry should watch out in case Draco has a go at him, but the kind that Harry should just watch out for himself, be careful.

In my view, I think, yes, Draco is a berk - and an annoying one at that. But I also can't help but think he has reason: His father is in Lord V's "Inner Circle," isn't he? He tortures people, or we can assume so; he kills people and enjoys it. Then wouldn't it stand to reason that he's a bit...callous with his own son? Violent, even.

If you had a father who murdered people without a second thought, and he obviously expected you to follow in his footsteps whether you wanted to or not, wouldn't you act as though you were? Perhaps even sometimes get carried away with that act? That's how I've always seen it.

And Draco's always saying "My father" this and "My father" that - mightn't that be some form of plea for help, or if not, then a warning to others to keep away for their own sakes? I think Lucius expects Draco to look up to him, which also might be part of it.

And any chance he has, Draco says something against Harry or the "good side" that gets in the paper; that could be a way for him to ensure that his father gets the message that, so far as his father knows, Draco is following exactly the life he should.

Any thoughts on that?



Solitaire - Feb 28, 2005 9:14 pm (#922 of 1825)
I wonder, Koto, exactly how much Draco has known of his father's activities up to this point. He knows now, obviously ... but Draco has always been a braggart and Lucius knows this. I'm not sure he would have trusted Draco with any sensitive information.

Solitaire



Eric Bailey - Mar 1, 2005 12:15 am (#923 of 1825)
Draco seems to know. Aside from his gloating at the end of GoF, there's what he said at the beginning, when Harry asked him, point blank, if his parents were among the Death Eaters that attacked after the Quiddich Cup finals. Draco said something along the lines of "If they were, do you think I'd tell you?"



Mistress Gim - Mar 1, 2005 12:24 am (#924 of 1825)
He's always had some smart-alec comment about a wicked deed (and I do mean the bad kind of wicked) since the first book; and anyway, even with a large mansion, Draco lives with his father. There's bound to be some things he noticed. He's smart; he could put the clues together, I'm sure.



Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 2:38 am (#925 of 1825)
In CoS, when Ron and Harry are impersonating Crabbe and Goyle, Draco says the following: "But I know one thing - last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed this time ... I hope it's Granger," he said with relish.

I remember the first time I read this passage. It made my blood chill, because I felt it moved Draco from the category of a spoiled Slytherin brat who didn't like one of his classmates to a new category--someone who was certainly evil enough to wish Hermione, and Harry, as well, dead. And if he is capable of wishing or seeing them dead, he is probably capable of attempting to make them dead (killing curse). **shivering**

Solitaire



Fred Cringe - Mar 1, 2005 2:56 am (#926 of 1825)
Also there's his eagerness to see Harry tortured by Umbridge.

OotP UK Hardback pg. 658

Malfoy was watching her with a hungry expression on his face.



Dumbledore - Mar 1, 2005 8:51 am (#927 of 1825)
Solitaire, although I do agree that Draco would not hesitant to harm Harry in any way if he found an opportunity to do so, but I doubt that a 15 year old wizard would be able to perform the killing curse as you mentioned in your last post.



Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 7:12 pm (#928 of 1825)
Well, Draco couldn't see the Thestrals, so his conception of death is still theorical. Another important point is he wanted Hermione to be the one. He certainly had trouble at home for his bad performance compare to that mudblood (Lucius is the one who bring the subject at Borgin and Burkes), so there's no wonder he wish her out of his life.



Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 11:29 pm (#929 of 1825)
Good points, Tomoé.



Mistress Gim - Mar 2, 2005 2:19 am (#930 of 1825)
To Solitaire and Fred Cringe - There's nothing saying Draco isn't sadistic, perhaps a bit misanthropic, even; and yes, I suppose, as Tomoé said, he might want Hermione dead as she does fare better academically - and being a Malfoy (which means, basically, he gets what he wants), that would likely anger him. I didn't say nor do I mean he's very KIND.

How do we know he can't see the thestrals? I'm just curious on that part. Was there something in the book that points it out? If there is, I missed it.

To Dumbledore - Tom Riddle was able to use it [the Killing Curse] when he was about that age. It isn't age that really matters on the matter; it's intent, as is stated in the books. The want to kill something, the desire to be the cause of that death - that's required, not an age limit.

Draco seems the type to be jealous and act on that jealousy sometimes - so hurting Harry or anyone Harry cares for wouldn't JUST possibly be satisfying to him [Draco], but it would also play into his act (as I suggested earlier).



Dumbledore - Mar 2, 2005 3:20 pm (#931 of 1825)
Koto, in the part with the thestrals lesson in the forest, Hagrid asked who could see them, and Malfoy did not raise his hand. Also, where does it say that Tom Riddle could do Avada Kedavra at 15?

Just a year before Moody (or at least Crouch Jr.) said that even if all the kids were to try to do Avada Kedavra on him at the same time, he doubted he would get little more than a nosebleed. I just don't think (and I really have no evidence for it, it's just my opinion) that you would have to be an extremely talented wizard at fifteen to be able to perform a curse like that, combatted with an absurd desire to kill, which I doubt Malfoy has either.



Ponine - Mar 2, 2005 3:37 pm (#932 of 1825)
I think that Draco will prove himself to be a tad more complex than he initially appears. After all - what choice did Draco have, growing up Malfoy? He has been born and raised to be a cocky supremacist, all while never being good enough for daddy. That combination makes for interesting teenagers. I think he is mouthy, negligent, and cruel, but more in a teenager/ignorant sort of way. I do not think he has a real concept of danger and pain, particularly as he comes from a long line of people who has not lived in fear (at least the obvious kind). On that note I would also like to point out that the most disturbing part in any of the books were that of Malfoy as the bouncing ferret. Ron and Harry did not mind the image of a small furry animal (I KNOW it was Draco, but still) being smacked down into a stone floor time and time again. I personally would find this just as disturbing as twirling muggles in the air. I guess my point is that we do not know that Draco is so much worse than anyone else! (I hope I did not rehash too much)



Eric Bailey - Mar 2, 2005 6:03 pm (#933 of 1825)
Well, we know a couple of people who had the same kind of upbringing, and didn't turn out like Draco: Sirius and Andromeda. They managed to find a backbone and will of their own. But then, they both seemed smarter and gutsier than Draco in the first place. I'd guess one difference may have been that the Blacks didn't spoil and coddle their kids, too much. You get the impression from those raised Black that they had as much expectations of them as those raised Malfoy, but were really driven from the cradle to succeed, whereas Draco has always just coasted on his dad's name and money. It seems all the Blacks reacted, in one way or another, to a very strict aristocratic upbringing.

Compare Draco to his cousin Nymphadora. To qualify for Auror training, you have to have the highest grades, and be very disciplined and driven (at least, from what McGonagall told Harry). Harry, despite his power and bravery, still has to get his stuff together if he wants to pursue that path. You really have to be focused on that goal to achieve it. It would seem Nymphadora had, except for being raised without the usual bigotry, the classic Black family upbringing. When she discusses her mother, it's very loving, but she also seems a bit stifled by Andromeda's perfectionism, rebelling a bit both with her style of dress and not wanting to be called by her classicly Black style first name. I'd guess someone's had a lot of pressure all her life to live up to her mother's definition of a proper Black, that Andromeda doesn't see it as her turning her back on the family, but rather the family turning their backs on her, and wanting to restore honor to the family name.

Draco, meanwhile, hasn't bothered to improve himself, thinking his dad's name is enough to get him whatever he wants. As a result, he lacks real cunning, is lazy, and a complete coward, completely unprepared to deal with the world on his own, let alone conquor it. Andromeda has raised the Bellatrix, the warrior, of the younger Black generation, while Narcissa has raised it's Regulus.



Choices - Mar 2, 2005 7:18 pm (#934 of 1825)
Dumbledore - "Also, where does it say that Tom Riddle could do Avada Kedavra at 15?" You are right Dumbledore - I don't think Tom was 15 when he did the AK. He had just left Hogwarts, so he would have been at least 17. He must have been really filled with hatred for his father and grandparents and he really wanted to see them die, otherwise he probably wouldn't have been able to successfully do the AK.



Solitaire - Mar 2, 2005 8:41 pm (#935 of 1825)
I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities for Tom Riddle to have performed AK curses at a very young age, but then he was an extraordinarily gifted and evil young wizard. He'd already set the Basilisk loose, which had resulted in Myrtle's death. Surely AK-ing someone would be no problem.

For all we know, he might have killed others even before Myrtle and his parents. Living in an orphanage would certainly have brought him into contact with people he did not like. I can see him dusting off people who attempted to make his life miserable ... as sometimes happens in orphanges. Of course, he would not be able to brag about it as a kid, the way he likes to do now. Of course, I have absolutely no proof for why I feel this way. I just think it is a possibility.

As for Draco, I'd forgotten about the thestrals. Tomoe is correct that death is still theoretical for him. It might be very different for him to actually see someone die--especially someone close to him. Does he hate enough to actually kill? Hard to say. I do believe he is on the road to becoming sufficiently evil to kill, though.

Solitaire



Mistress Gim - Mar 2, 2005 8:49 pm (#936 of 1825)
To Dumbledore (and Choices) - I didn't say fifteen, but rather "about that age".

To Eric Bailey - I don't think Draco is exactly lazy nor a complete coward (though on that he could do with a bit more courage), nor do I think he "lacks real cunning". To be qualified for the Slytherin House, one must be cunning and smart, if the two don't go hand-in-hand.

Certainly Draco isn't at all above having others do his work for him (as was stated previously by someone - I don't remember who), but wasn't it stated somewhere that he does earn (at least) decent grades? If you remember from the books, Hermione is always ahead of Ron and Harry with assignments while they struggle to keep up; call Draco lazy, then what are the boys?

And remember, anyway, though the books are written in third person, they're from Harry's point of view; so as much as Harry dislikes Draco, it shows in the writing, thus Draco would, accordingly, be really evil and cruel and whatever else bad things can be tacked on.



Mistress Gim - Mar 2, 2005 8:53 pm (#937 of 1825)
I have a question for anyone able to answer: Is there any mention in the books, or any hint, of when Draco's birthday is? If not, would anyone be willing to help me choose a day? I have several candidates that would fit him. (I'm using The Secret Language of Birthdays to try to decide.)



Eric Bailey - Mar 3, 2005 1:10 am (#938 of 1825)


Crabbe and Goyle, cunning and smart? Pureblood, cunning, and ambition are the qualities Slytherin looks for ("Smart" being Ravenclaw's qualification). But, as the Three Stooges (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle) have proven, they're all not neccessary to be there. How cunning is it to constantly shout your support of Voldemort? You'd think someone cunning and clever would hide his intentions. And, let's look at Draco's "cunning plans", which are usually to march right up to his target with his goons, loudly announce his intentions (usually with a "witty" and "clever" insult like "Scarhead", "Weasel", or "Filthy mudblood", then get zapped. Draco is always completely obvious about everything.

Now, "Scarhead", "Weasel", and "Filthy mudblood" were probably clever insults when you're 11, but when you're 15? Draco hasn't grown one bit, besides physically, in all the time he's been at Hogwarts. That's why he's gone from "rival" to "annoyance" for Harry. Compare his stagnation to Neville's growth in OotP. Who'd have thought, when we first met them, that Draco Malfoy would be outshined by Neville Longbottom? Yet, that's where we are, now.

Compare the Sextet's capabilities (Six students who can hold their own against a dozen of Voldemort's best Death Eaters) to those of Draco and his Goon Squad (Six students who, armed and with the numbers advantage, can't contain four unarmed peers for five minutes). If the war drags on long enough to where the main combatants will be the current DA vs the current Death Nibblers, Voldemort's side is toast. The next generation is strong and smart and crafty on one side, completely lacking on the other. And, that's because the Death Nibblers leader, Draco, has never bothered to improve himself, just content that the Malfoy name is sufficient to triumph over everything, despite five years of hard evidence to the contrary.



Fred Cringe - Mar 3, 2005 5:53 am (#939 of 1825)
Solitaire:Does he hate enough to actually kill? Hard to say. I do believe he is on the road to becoming sufficiently evil to kill, though.

I agree. His youth and inexperience of such matters isn't much to go on either. Unfortunately, in our world, there are numerous people Draco's age who take great delight in footage/images of people being killed or maimed and there are plenty of web sites etc dedicated to these ghoulish habits. Regrettably, some of these teenage voyeurs go on to kill/maim themselves.

There's nothing I've read so far in the books to suggest that Draco doesn't wish for the day when he can deal with his enemies or those he considers beneath him by using unforgivable curses.



pottermom34 - Mar 3, 2005 8:17 am (#940 of 1825)
I think Draco is all talk ( a lot of hot air)but if it really came down to it, he would run and hide before he AK'd anyone especially Harry I think he knows Harry is more powerful than him . He can't even say Voldemort's name and Harry has no problem saying it.



Solitaire - Mar 3, 2005 8:22 am (#941 of 1825)
Sadly, I have to agree, Fred. Since Draco is suffering from pent-up rage and anger about Harry and Hermione--surely calling them names doesn't release much rage--it is possible that if/when he hurls an unforgiveable at either of them, it may do some serious damage.

I also agree with Eric about Draco. All appearances would indicate that he really hasn't grown much as a person since we first saw him. He is still doing and saying the same mean, stupid things. If there is something more going on beneath the surface, he has yet to reveal it. As I said above, though, I feel that what is going on is a growing meanness and evil. It is quite possible that when he "steps up to the plate" and truly has to fight, he will not duel honorably; he will go right for the unforgiveables. JM2K ...

Solitaire



wwtMask - Mar 3, 2005 9:37 am (#942 of 1825)
The next generation is strong and smart and crafty on one side, completely lacking on the other.

Oh, I don't know about that. We really don't know very much about more than a handful of the "other side", and we can't even be sure that those we've heard of will actually align themselves with the Dark Lord. Being anti-Gryffindor doesn't make you pro-Voldemort. Besides that, we can't even be sure of members of the other houses too because, without a doubt, Voldemort doesn't choose his followers simply because they're Slytherins.

I don't know why everyone is so hard on Draco, really. Yes, he's a horrible git and he's definitely not on Harry's level, but can we really expect him to grow as fast as Harry has without the impetus to do so? Harry's been forced to grow up quickly because he has a higher purpose and a greater enemy. Draco just hasn't realized that Harry can't be bothered with him because he has bigger fish to fry.



Weeny Owl - Mar 3, 2005 10:19 am (#943 of 1825)
Draco may very well be able to cast an effective Unforgivable, unfortunately.

Bella said you have to want to cause pain, you have to mean them. We know already that Draco likes causing pain, even if it's just the pain caused from embarrassment. Now that his father is in Azkaban and he has an ax to grind, h ecould very easily find it in himself to want to hurt somone.



Tomoé - Mar 3, 2005 10:47 am (#944 of 1825)
Koto -> How do we know he can't see the thestrals? I'm just curious on that part. Was there something in the book that points it out? If there is, I missed it.

Here's the exact quote:

Most of the rest of the class were wearing expressions as confused and nervously expectant as Ron's and were still gazing everywhere but at the hourse standing feet from them. There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: [Theodore and Neville] [...]
'Yeah ... yeah, I knew you'd be able ter, Harry,' he said seriously. 'An' you too, Neville, eh? An'-'
'ERxcuse me,' said Malfoy in a sneering voice, 'but what are we supposed to be seeing?' (OoP UK ch.21 pp.393-394)

He wasn't even looking at the right place (and knowing Draco's mistrust of Hagrid's skills, I'd said he really couldn't see it ^_~).

Now, would Draco be able to cast an unforgivable to another student? I'd say his Imperius would work on weak willed students (but not on Harry of course), he'll sure be able crusio someone (but how long could he feed the curse), but the AK curse, does he wish people death or does he just wish them gone? If he just wish them gone, it won't work.

Another point, will he dare to use a unforgivable curse now? Even his father was sent to Azkaban. If Lucius don't come home after a month, I'd say Draco'll chicken out.



Weeny Owl - Mar 3, 2005 10:54 am (#945 of 1825)
Another point, will he dare to use a unforgivable curse now? Even his father was sent to Azkaban. If Lucius don't come home after a month, I'd say Draco'll chicken out.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you, Tomoe, but him using an Unforgivable is based on the assumption that he's incredibly angry, that something will set him off to where he reacts immediately, and that he thinks he won't be caught. At least, that's what I was thinking, anyway.



Mistress Gim - Mar 3, 2005 9:52 pm (#946 of 1825)
Good points - especially on the Human Troll issues (AKA Crabbe and Goyle). But, alas, I still feel the same way about Draco. Optimism? Maybe; though I've been trying to squash it for years. Convenience for my writing? Likely; the way I see him is how I'm writing him in my stories, after all.

For the time being I'm going to sit back and listen to other views until I find something else I can knitpick. (I hope no one minds. ^_^ ) But I'm still needing help with my Birthday Dilemma... (Hint hint.)



timrew - Mar 4, 2005 4:02 pm (#947 of 1825)
I think Draco is (to use an old Lancashire expression), "All mouth and no trousers". He would be totally wasting his time trying to stand up to Harry and friends now.

It would be a bit like a flobberworm taking on a Hungarian Horntail.



wwtMask - Mar 7, 2005 8:42 am (#948 of 1825)
Now now, don't underestimate flobberworms. After all, it gave Goyle (or was it Crabbe) a nasty bite. At least, that's what the Daily Prophet said, and if we can't trust that noble publication, who can we trust?



Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 11:55 am (#949 of 1825)
Absolutely, Mask, because we know the Daily "PROFIT" would NEVER, EVER publish a falsehood or distort the facts. *cough! cough! gag! choke!**

Solitaire



wwtMask - Mar 7, 2005 12:16 pm (#950 of 1825)
Indeed, the Prophet is the standard bearer for ethical journalism! As we can see from their top reporter, Rita Skeeter, the editors of the Prophet only hires journalists with honesty and integrity. The Prophet isn't like those Muggle papers, who are just propaganda machines for the current administration...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 951 to 1000

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timrew - Mar 7, 2005 4:36 pm (#951 of 1825)
Okay, next article in the Prophet, "How I took on a Hungarian Horntail - and won", by Hieronymous Q. Flobberworm..........



Mistress Gim - Mar 7, 2005 6:54 pm (#952 of 1825)
Or "Ten Reasons Why Our Esteemed and Respectful Minister of Magic Should Stay To Help Us Through the Second War" - Fudge, doubtless, wouldn't be above using the Prophet for his own gain. Because any truly factual article would be something along the lines of "Why That Cowardly & Undeserving Git the Minister of Magic Should Be Thrown In a Ring With An Angry Pack of Blast-Ended Skrewts"; and I, for one, would pay to see what kind of deals he'd try to make with the creatures to get himself out of that mess. ^.^

But back to Draco - I'll be blunt about it: Can SOMEONE volunteer to help me decide when his birthday should be, or else tell me if it's been decided and thus when?

- Koto Asakawa



Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 8:37 pm (#953 of 1825)
Koto, I'd be glad to volunteer my humble and unlearned opinion regarding Draco's birthday. I'd have to say October 30th. I have no astrological, mythological, alchemical or even "meterological" basis for my guess. But October 30th is when the local youth gang together to cause random mischief and violence. It's known as All Heck's Night (okay, I'm making the name more PG friendly... ) I would assume that if there were a Wizard equivalent of a time of random violence, destruction and mayhem that Malfoy would love to be right in the midst of it. Therefore, I humbly venture my guess, such as it's worth, in response to your kind request for assistance.

Barbie



Mistress Gim - Mar 8, 2005 7:44 pm (#954 of 1825)
To Phoenix Song - Thank you foe the help! Is All H---l's night something the police came up with, because everyone's getting ready for the real fun of Halloween?

But anyway, the book is a compilation of "many years of observation of more than 14,000 people, including contemporary and historical figures." (That's what it says on the inside flap.)

So it has "profiles" of general traits people born on the same day tend to share in common; it's really quite nifty. It's accurate - it said that people born the day my father was are a bit tight-fisted when it comes to money, which was very true of him, for example.

I'm going to type out those days that I think match Draco the most and post them separately when I'm all done. Granted that might take a while - each profile is about two pages long.

I'll note here as well as when I post that I don't own any of the information contained in "The Secret Language of Birthdays"; I'm merely using it for my own personal needs, as it was meant for. (No copyright infringement intended.)

-Koto Asakawa



Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 7:56 pm (#955 of 1825)
On Hermione's thread, wwtMask wrote the following about Draco--in post 1445: "Speaking of the little ferret, there's been speculation that Draco is now Ron's primary enemy. ... I don't think Hermione cares to waste her valuable time on him." I thought the idea of Draco-as-pest might be an interesting one to pursue.

Draco will certainly never lose an opportunity to insult Ron about his family and their lack of material wealth--a very sore subject with Ron. The question is, can Ron rise above it and ignore him? I agree that the Trio (including Ron) have more important ferrets to fry these days, but this leads me to wonder ... If Draco loses his status as their chief student antagonist and slips beneath their notice to become more of a pest than anything else, will he step up the level of harassment in which he engages and become a more hardcore evil-doer? What do you say?

Solitaire



Mistress Gim - Mar 8, 2005 8:22 pm (#956 of 1825)
I wouldn't be surprised if he at least came up with a few new nicknames for the Troublesome Trio. Hmm... Idiot, Goon, and Fool - but I think he already uses those for his two trolls. ^.^

-Koto Asakawa



MickeyCee3948 - Mar 10, 2005 6:06 pm (#957 of 1825)
I think that Draco will become far more evil in the next two books. I believe the humiliation and losses(Lucius) he has been forced to endure will drive him to new heights. He definitely will rise above the level of name calling and letting his victim know whats coming. Probably will be more cowardly and backstabbing. Wouldn't be surprised if he has outgrown his trolls and their incompetance and starts looking for a few smarter more evil companions. Hence Draco's Detour.

Mikie



TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 10, 2005 7:00 pm (#958 of 1825)
I agree Mickey. Draco has been a plot device, a major one, the symbolism of the opposition for 5 books, at Harry's age level... but as Harry grows in years so does Draco. And I see him progressing just as you described. Some have seen the last confrontation in OoP and said pst..Harry feels Draco is beneath his notice, he has bigger fish to fry. But, if Harry is truly growing wise, he'd better never underestimate or discount Draco. It is hard enough to see what is coming at you, let alone what is attacking your rear.

...toddles off elsewhere....



Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 11, 2005 4:37 pm (#959 of 1825)
When Lucius escapes from Azkaban as Draco says he will now that the dementors are no longer under ministry control, Lucius will be an outcast, and will be out of a job, fueling Draco to become much more unbearable.



Choices - Mar 11, 2005 7:18 pm (#960 of 1825)
But, Lucius doesn't have a "job" that we know of. I think his money comes from sources (investments, property, etc.) that would not be affected by his absence - unless he was away for a very long time. I think Draco and his Mum will be fine as long as their standard of living isn't lowered by Lucius' absence. Draco will be mad as a wet hen that his father was caught and put in prison. He will certainly try to see that those responsible pay, and pay dearly.



Dumbledore - Mar 12, 2005 1:49 pm (#961 of 1825)
I think that what Leif was trying to say (correct me if I misunderstood you Lief) is that Lucius is an outcast in the sense that any influence or power he had had within the Ministry is now completely extinguished. I do agree with you, Choices, that Draco will definitely try to take revenge on those who caused his father's imprisonment in the first place.



Solitaire - Mar 12, 2005 4:39 pm (#962 of 1825)
The last time I see Malfoy in the battle--unless I've missed something--is when Harry knocks him off his feet with an Impedimenta! jinx while Bella and Sirius are dueling. Before Malfoy can fire back at Harry and Neville, Remus appears and tells Harry to "round up the others and GO!" Seconds later the prophecy is smashed. Is Remus the one who takes Lucius out of the game? Dumbledore seems to have bound most of the DEs--including Lucius?--with an Anti-Disapparation Jinx.

It will be interesting to see on whom--out of everyone involved--Draco finally places the blame, won't it? Because we know he will never admit that it was Lucius himself who was responsible for being in Azkaban in the first place--by going on the ill-advised mission.

Will Draco try to take on Remus or Dumbledore? In fact, is it possible--since Dumbledore was really the one responsible for Lucius actually being apprehended--that Draco might not even return to Hogwarts?

I believe it would be interesting to see what effect the absence of Draco might have on the kids in Slytherin. Would the kids in Harry's year, at least, be as anti-Harry (and anti-Gryffindor) if it were not for the animosity between Harry and Draco? Just something I've wondered ...

Solitaire



Madame Librarian - Mar 12, 2005 5:49 pm (#963 of 1825)
Regardless of the actual choreography of that battle scene in OoP, i.e., who is truly responsible for Lucius's capture, I see Draco as continuing his personal feud with Harry. Draco is blinded by his hatred of Harry specifically, the rest of the Gryffindor and the DA generally. He's not going to go after adults, I think, until he thinks he's gotten Harry. It's not rational at this point. The difference in their philosophy is quite secondary. He just can't stand Harry, the Halfblood kid who has gotten the better of him a good number of times, so Draco wants revenge.

Ciao. Barb



Solitaire - Mar 12, 2005 7:54 pm (#964 of 1825)
Oh, I agree with you completely, Barb ... he will blame Harry. And yes, he is irrational--because it isn't Harry who is responsible for Lucius being where he is. I guess I just wonder if Narcissa will have a different idea. As an adult, she may possibly (although not necessarily) be more rational. If she did see Dumbledore as her nemesis, would she pull Draco out of Hogwarts? Or would she leave him there, because she will see him as the only way to get Harry out of their lives once and for all?

Am I suggesting this will happen? No, I'm just wondering "What if ..." I am also curious about what other posters think is the extent of Draco's influence on Slytherin attitudes toward Harry and the "anti-Voldemort" forces within Hogwarts. How much influence or "power" does Draco wield among his fellow Slytherins? I think it is an interesting idea to pursue on his thread ...

Solitaire



pottermom34 - Mar 13, 2005 10:09 pm (#965 of 1825)
Actually guys, he already blamed Harry for what happened to his father. In OotP, p 851(us) in The Second War begins chapter, Malfoy said "You're going to pay'""I'm going to make you pay for what you did to my father." You wait. I'll have you. You can't land my father in prison--"

"I thought I just had," said Harry



Solitaire - Mar 14, 2005 12:19 am (#966 of 1825)
Too bad Harry is always so quick with the retort. He should have thought first, spoken later: Um, gee, Malfoy ... actually it was Dumbledore who apprehended him. I was totally busy being possessed by Voldemort and strangled by his snake Nagini. But I'll pass on your message when I see Dumbledore.

Or perhaps ... Actually, Malfoy, it was his buddy Fudge who had him arrested. But I wouldn't worry. Like Voldy said, your dad is a pretty slippery character, so I'm sure he'll worm his way out of this one, too. Later, Dude!

What do you think?

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Mar 14, 2005 12:32 am (#967 of 1825)
I prefer, "Actually, Malfoy, it was your father's own stupidity. If he hadn't become a Death Eater in the first place, he wouldn't have been there, now would he?"



wwtMask - Mar 14, 2005 7:53 am (#968 of 1825)
And I prefer the way he responded. He does not fear Draco or his retribution and he should know well enough that their feud passed the limits of reason a couple years back. He could have flat out begged for forgiveness from Draco and it would not change Draco's feelings about that issue.



Phoenix song - Mar 14, 2005 8:35 am (#969 of 1825)
I agree that the way that Harry responded was probably for the best. It wouldn't matter if Lucius himself had a sudden epiphany and declared to Malfoy that the blame for his arrest lied with himself and not with Harry. (Which is not going to happen, of course, as he doesn't seem the type to take responsibility for his own choices.) Malfoy would still seem fit to blame Harry, as he blames Harry for every little disappointment that comes his way in life.

Harry doesn't feel a need to protect himself from Malfoy and his gang by explaining his limited involvement in actually having "captured" his father. The danger in Harry's life has escalated to such a point that the petty boyhood rivalry that exists between them is no longer centrally important to him. As Harry said, "I suppose Lord Voldemort is a warm-up act compared to you three."

Although, thinking about the alternate "come backs" that Harry could have used in this particular scene, I have to admit that my favorite one would be for Harry to dismissively yawn, roll his eyes, and sarcastically reply, "Whatever, dude." And then nonchalantly stroll away as if they were ants of very little importance. **Which just goes to show you how immature the imagination of a 30 something can become at times! **

Barbie



Ponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:22 pm (#970 of 1825)
- Whatever, dude - Phoenix, I love it...!



Ydnam96 - Mar 17, 2005 8:20 am (#971 of 1825)
Yes, it would be good, but I love Harry's response. It kind of puts Malfoy in his place. Haha. I have to admit there was a bit of satisfaction on my part. And I love love love that part where he pulls out his wand, Snape walks up, and Harry honestly tells him he's in the middle of deciding what spell to use to hex Malfoy. GREAT stuff.



Choices - Mar 17, 2005 9:44 am (#972 of 1825)
Ydnam96 - "but I love Harry's response"

I'm with you......if JKR starts using the word "dude" in her books, I'll be so disappointed I may have to quit reading them.

Now, with that said.....someone will probably show up with proof that she already has. Please JKR, don't do this to me.



Solitaire - Mar 18, 2005 10:39 pm (#973 of 1825)
LOL Choices! I was just kidding when I used the term dude. I hear stuff like that with my students, and it just "slipped out." LOL

Now that I think of it ... I did take a long camping trip in Europe back in 1978. One of only two Americans in a group of adults from Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, and England, I used the term dude rather jokingly to refer to a couple of the guys in the group who were wearing some pretty snazzy Stetsons.(For some reason, they reminded me of a couple of dudes from old 50s Westerns!) By the end of the trip, several people were calling everyone Dude. This was an important lesson about how impressionable people can be. I doubt Jo would be so careless as to have her kids refer to anyone as dude ... well, maybe Snape! hehe

Solitaire



TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 18, 2005 11:02 pm (#974 of 1825)
Soli? That was very Dracoish! Calling Snape "Dude" at midnight was a SPEW moment.

ROFL!



Solitaire - Mar 18, 2005 11:14 pm (#975 of 1825)
I couldn't resist!



Mistress Gim - Apr 17, 2005 6:06 pm (#976 of 1825)
Hello all! My internet died and then so did my computer, but I'm back! (Sorry if that disappoints you.) I haven't been able to type out all of the profiles as I wanted, but I think I found one that fits him. Could you let me know what you think of it?

Again, I don't mean any copyright infringement.



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Month: September
Day: 25
Sign: 1-3 degrees Libra
Period: Libra I
Cardinal: Air


SEPTEMBER TWENTY-FIFTH
The Day of the Symbiotic Satirist


Those born on September 25 live in a curious relashionship with their society. On the one hand they are dependent on it for their sustenance, and ultimately their success. On the other hand they are often openly critical of it and capable of ironically exposing its faults. In doing so they may actually show how the social fabric around them can be improved and strengthened.

Oddly ernough, outside their local sphere, those born on this day may be seen as living symbols of the area from which they come, so closely are they identified with it in the minds of others. Yet no one will be more keenly aware and critical of their neighborhood, town, city, state, or country than they. Their relashionship, then, with the homeplace is interestingly symbiotic, a kind of sharing that can be at once advantageous and disadvantageous for both parties.

September 25 people can also be highly representative of their family or social circle. In addition, it is possible that they may embody the values and aspirations of their company or peers, but nonetheless stand aloof due to their critical and questioning attitude.

September 25 people often have difficulty opening up and expressing their emotions honestly in personal relationships. They can also appear cool and distant on first meeting. They do, however, have a tremendous need for affection and it may only be that a history of emotional hurt has closed them off a bit to the world. Indeed, living an isolated life emotionally and/or being quite introverted away from the social contact demanded by their careers can be a characteristic of those born on this day.

September 25 people are imaginative but at the same time very precise and exacting. perfectionists, they genreally go over their work repeatedly in order to catch mistakes and shore up weaknesses. The demands they make on others are no different from what they ask of themselves. Interestingly enough, although they so often indulge in critisism of their social group they do not react well to the criticism of that group by outsiders; in fact they can become defensive and curiously chauvinistic at times.

Often September 25 people are able to form a deeper relationship with their society, social circle, and/or career than they ever could with an individual. Consequently those who are involved with them personally, on an emotional level, may feel as if there is something already spoken for of which they can never be a part. September 25 people must beware that their children in particular do not grow up feeling deprived in this respect.


NUMBERS AND PLANETS
Those born on the 25th of the day of the month are ruled by the number 7 (2+5=7), and by the planet Neptune. The connection between Neptune and venus (ruler of Libra) can produce an artistic, graceful and ethereal personality. However, there is more present than metts the eye. The Neptune-Venus connection can also tempt September 25 people to indulge in drug-taking, particularly alcohol. Most ruled by the number 7 enjoy change and travel, but September 25 people generally prefer staying closer to home; ambivalent feelings toward their lifestyle can thus be the result.


TAROT
The 7th card of the Major Arcana is The Chariot, which shows a triumphant figure moving through the world, manifesting his physical presence in a dynamic way. The card may be interpreted to mean that no matter how narrow or precarious the correct path, one must continue on. The good side of this card posits success, talent and efficiency; the bad side suggests a dictatorial attitude and a poor sense of direction.


ADVICE
Your tendency to be sharp or critical can get you in trouble. Remember that words can hurt worse than blows. Try to be open about what you are feeling. Don’t cut yourself off from life.


MEDITATION People hide more than money in books

STRENGTHS: HARD-WORKING, GOAL-ORIENTED, DETERMINED WEAKNESSES: CLOSED, INSENSITIVE, UNFORGIVING

-----


I left out the 'Health' section, but I don't think that much matters. So do you think it fits him? Why? Why not? What do you suggest (besides me getting a life)?

- Koto Asakawa



Cat 7 of 9 - Apr 18, 2005 12:15 pm (#977 of 1825)
Did I miss something, where does it say that Dracos birthday is on September 25th?



Choices - Apr 18, 2005 12:27 pm (#978 of 1825)
It doesn't say in the books, so it must have been on JKR's website. I didn't see it, so I don't know for sure. I figure if it was important to the story, it would be in the books.



Mistress Gim - Jan 5, 2004 12:54 am (#979 of 1825)
Edited Apr 18, 2005 5:19 pm
No, I'm not saying the 25th of September is Draco's birthday; I'm asking if, based on the profile in relation to his personality, the 25th could be his birthday. (Sorry if I confused you.)

What do you think?

-Koto Asakawa



Choices - Apr 18, 2005 6:12 pm (#980 of 1825)
I don't feel I know enough about Draco to say. We have never seen him except through Harry's eyes. Does Draco have any real friends? It doesn't appear so, as we only see him with Crabbe and Goyle and a few other hangers-on. What is he like around his parents and other relatives? We have only a few brief glimpses of Draco with Lucius. Not really enough to tell much about their relationship, although we do get a basic idea. What is his homelife like - what sort of things does he have in his room? What games, books, activities does he like? Does he have a pet, other than his eagle owl? How does he treat Dobby? There is just so little imformation about Draco to really do an accurate character accessment. Harry thinks he's an unpleasant little git, the two definitely do not get along and Draco probably is not to be trusted. Other than that his character is not very filled out.



Cat 7 of 9 - Apr 19, 2005 5:27 am (#981 of 1825)
Choices, that's just what I was about to say, well almost, okay not realy ... but I do agree with you.



frogface - Apr 19, 2005 3:37 pm (#982 of 1825)
I agree, its just annoying that the interaction between Malfoy and Nott was taken out of CoS. It would have been very interesting to actually learn something about Nott as a character and also to see Draco from a perspective other than Harry's. We may have also learnt more about Malfoy's relationship with his parents, and got to have seen their manor.



Choices - Apr 19, 2005 4:49 pm (#983 of 1825)
But Frogface - it would all have been movie contamination and not canon. Just some director's guess. What good would that do us? It would be about as good as having a pocket full of leprechaun gold.



frogface - Apr 20, 2005 1:32 am (#984 of 1825)
No you misunderstood me. There was a scene between Malfoy and Nott that was going to be in the book, not the film. JKR says on her website that she decided to take it out though. The scene was going to be about Theo and his Father visiting the Malfoy's. The two dad's go off to discuss something (probably Lucius' evil scheme!) and the scene is based around a conversation between Malfoy and Theodore Nott. I can't remember why she decided to take it out now but I'll have a look.

Ah yes, if you go on the JKR website and go to extra's (click on the coffee mug) and then go to 'edits', she talks about the scene there. Apparently she decided to try and use it in GoF as well but it didn't work there either so she took it out.



Tomoé - Apr 20, 2005 7:37 am (#985 of 1825)
I think Koto's description fit with Draco's personality, and September 25th could be his birthday if JKR used to same sources to build her characters.

Does anyone konw if the Harry Potter's characters fit with their astrological profile?



Mistress Gim - May 5, 2005 10:55 pm (#986 of 1825)
I checked Harry's and it does...sort of. Well, the shorthand of July 31st people is this:

STRENGTHS: OBSERVANT, EXPRESSIVE, VISUAL
WEAKNESSES: ANXIOUS, DISTURBED, ISOLATED

Okay, so maybe it doesn't fit. I'm not sure. But I can say that I doubt writers pull out their own copy of the book when deciding upon a character's birthday.

To Choices: I'm glad I'm not the only who realizes that the books are from Harry's point of view, so the character descriptionms are a bit biased. By his descriptions, though, I think we can pick out small things that hint toward Draco's true character. (Or maybe I'm just reading into it too much.)



zelmia - May 29, 2005 12:29 pm (#987 of 1825)
I just wanted to say since we had our Alchemy Thread closed down (twice!) when subjects such as Astrology were introduced, as interesting as the connections might be, I strongly advise anyone else to think twice before posting such information here on the Forum. It would probably be best to not "go there" and simply stick to the subject of Draco Malfoy as he appears in the text, the films, or information gleaned about him from Rowling's web site, etc.
Just my two - unsolicited - knuts...



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 7:30 am (#988 of 1825)
Even though the books are from Harry's viewpoint mostly, I don't think all we have of him is Harry's opinion. The book is not written in first person, neither is it Harry recounting his adventures, so we are not simply hearing what he remembers (in which case he would be an unreliable narrator). We hear exactly what Malfoy says and does and can form our own opinion on it. And Harry's own opinion was not based on any prejudices or anything that he already had (like Ron might have had since he had already heard of the Malfoys). Harry met Malfoy in Madam Malkins, where Malfoy was talking about how they shouldn't let Muggleborns in and how he was going to bully his father into buying him a broom and then smuggle it in to Hogwarts somehow. He formed his opinion of him based on that conversation and the conversation on the train later.

I think the only way we could have got a false idea of Draco's true personality is if Draco himself is deliberately hiding his true personality (perhaps because he has a reputation to live up to). Which is possible, but I think J.K. has said that Harry and Draco will never be friends and never have to work together.

Personally I think Draco will cause a lot of trouble in the future and go the same way as his father. I take his "You're dead, Potter" statement very seriously (even if Harry doesn't).



Solitaire - May 30, 2005 11:20 am (#989 of 1825)
I think you are right on target, Liz. Draco's little "performance" in the robe shop had already given Harry an ugly glimpse of who he was and what he believed with regard to others. I'm not sure Draco is wise enough to present a false face to others. In fact, based on some of Lucius's comments to him, I tend to wonder if Draco might not tend to lack discretion in some of his comments ... to the point where Lucius feels the need to remind him of who he is and what he is about.

If the reader dislikes Draco, it is because Jo intends us to do so. I, for one, will be stunned if Draco and Harry ever join forces to battle anything or anyone. And I agree ... Draco is going to cause a lot of trouble before we see the last of him. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - May 30, 2005 1:27 pm (#990 of 1825)
I agree Solitaire, I would probably shout out loud at the book "don't trust him, don't trust him" JK has definetly set Draco up as a good for nothing.

Now, I know that a lot of it is not his fault...he didn't exactly grow up in the most wholesome and nurturing enviornment. But neither did Harry so it all does come back to the decisions we make.

Who knows...maybe Draco will make decisions later that will make us change our minds about him Smile



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 3:16 pm (#991 of 1825)
Now, I know that a lot of it is not his fault...he didn't exactly grow up in the most wholesome and nurturing enviornment. But neither did Harry so it all does come back to the decisions we make.

I think Draco and Harry are different in their upbringing in that Lucius has very strong ideals and opinions which he has clearly brought his son up to share. The Dursleys on the other hand, while they too had very strong ideals and opinions, they never tried to encourage Harry to agree with them. They just put him down as a lost cause and never tried to correct him (if they had he probably would have turned out like Dudley *shudders*). And since they were so cruel to Harry, it was probably easy for him to see that they were not nice people and so their opinions should not be trusted.



ellebell86 - May 30, 2005 6:15 pm (#992 of 1825)
I also think that Draco is intended to be disliked by the readers. I don't post often and I haven't read the entire thread so I'm sorry if this has been covered previously. It wasn't until Tom Feldon that people really started to like Draco and believe that he might not be all bad. Draco is portrayed in the books as a back stabbing jerk. He is inconsiderate and jumps to conclusions about people. Like when he meets Ron saying he must be a Weasley because he has old robes and red hair. The real truth about Draco came to light very early in PS, when he puts on the sorting hat and it shouts out Slytherin immediately as if there was no debate about it meaning that he is completely the embodiment of a Slytherin and therefore has no chance of change.



Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 3:59 am (#993 of 1825)
Ah yes but are all Slytherins evil?

Malfoy certainly is a nasty piece of work, though. And I agree that before Tom Felton was cast Draco didn't have nearly as many fan girls as he does now. I know I hated him (J.K. is very good at stirring emotions in the reader in response to a character). Snape too I think was liked a lot less before Alan Rickman was cast, although at least Snape, as far as we know, is on the right side, which Draco clearly is not.



wwtMask - May 31, 2005 12:11 pm (#994 of 1825)
Unfortunately, we can only say that their foremost members are gits. I doubt every one of them is evil (in fact, I'd say that the overwhelming majority are not). Yes, they can be unpleasant and underhanded, but that doesn't really imply evil. Their demeanor and tactics aside, they're really not too much different from any of the other houses.



Choices - May 31, 2005 12:21 pm (#995 of 1825)
wwtMask - "Yes, they can be unpleasant and underhanded, but that doesn't really imply evil."

No, but it is definitely a step in the right (or wrong) direction.....towards evil.



Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 2:44 pm (#996 of 1825)
I agree, not all the Slytherins can be evil. If that were true, there'd be about two hundred and fifty evil people at Hogwarts! And if that were true, the wizarding world would be in big trouble!



Ponine - Jun 1, 2005 5:00 am (#997 of 1825)
And I think evil is a very strong word to use for an eleven year old to begin with. Sure, he acts like a spoiled brat, has a big mouth, and is not the kid you hope your child will befriend, but nonetheless, he is only a kid when we meet him. Unpleasant as he is, he chats with Harry, without knowing who or what he is, the only way he has been taught how to communicate. I tend to believe that Harry's presence at Hogwarts has shaped Draco, and possibly pushed him further towards the dark side than he otherwise would have gone on his own. Does it make a difference now, probably not. Has Draco gone too far? I don't know, maybe, with his father publicly outed and humiliated, it might be too much for Draco, but I contend that 'evil' is a description too harsh for Draco, at least at this point.

Liz, I also agree that not all Slytherins are inherently evil. I think it would be silly for a school like Hogwarts to provide a bot camp for evil incarnate if this was indeed the case. I think that the Slytherins are not necessarily people most of us would like to associate with, but that certainly does not mean they are all evil...



Mistress Gim - Jun 1, 2005 11:18 pm (#998 of 1825)
One, I've always liked Draco, even before I saw the movies (and Felton, of course). I also agree that those in the Slytherin house aren't 'evil' - they're just not nice. I'd likely go into Slytherin because I can be cunning and ruthless and really rather sadistic, but does that make me evil? (...Don't answer that.)

Liz Mann brought up a good point about Harry turning out to be "Dursleyish" had his relatives tried to instill their values in him. He obviously did figure that they weren't to be trusted, but couldn't Draco figure that about his parents, as well? They aren't described too often, but from what we read of them, they're rather indifferent when they aren't being cruel to other people.

Is it possible - or likely - that between seeing the way his family acts and the way Gryffindors such as Harry, Ron, and Hermione do that Draco couuld have come to a similar decision about Lucius and Narcissa? He's quite nasty to the trio; could it be that he's jealous? They have one another to fall back on and care for and all he has is money and a lot of idiots around him. I think he could actually have something decent in him, but he lashes out not only to protect himself - because if he's rude and arrogant, he'd be acting perfectly "Malfoyish" - but also because he thinks it's unfair?



Choices - Jun 2, 2005 9:29 am (#999 of 1825)
Koto - "I can be cunning and ruthless and really rather sadistic, but does that make me evil?

I'd have said "no"....until I got to the sadistic part. Sorry, but if I hadn't said it, someone else would have. I think when you say cunning and ruthless, you have Draco, but when you add in sadistic, you have Voldemort.....and yes, that's evil.



Tomoé - Jun 2, 2005 10:00 am (#1000 of 1825)
Here's a quote for you, Koto:

JKR: Why does Malfoy dislike Harry so much in the first book?
Yes
JKR: Well, if you notice the very first time that Malfoy meets Harry and knows that it’s Harry, he makes an effort to be his friend. He does actually want to be associated with Harry because he knows that it would be cool to turn up at the school being Harry Potter’s friend because Harry’s so famous. Well Harry rebuffs him because Malfoy is being so rude about Hagrid and about Ron who Harry likes so much and it’s at that point that Malfoy turns against him. Because Malfoy is, ------- yet again this is so frustrating, I can’t tell you everything I could tell you because it would ruin future books for you. But Malfoy comes from a family who has strong associations with dark magic as you know and you are going to find out more about that in Book 4. So Malfoy is kind of --- he wanted to be Harry’s friend, Harry didn’t want him as a friend and that made him bitter. That‘s the starting point. (The Connection, 12 October, 1999)

It makes me wonder why Draco wanted Harry as a friend, sure it's cool to be friend with the most famous students, but it sounds like there's more to the boy who lives symbol that attracted Draco. The fact that Draco came from a DE family seems to be important as JKR brings the subject in her answer, but how? So what did he want? To bring Harry to Voldemort when he would come back? To use Harry's influence to get whatever he want? To step away from his father shadow?

About Lucius and Narcissa being indifferent, we have seen very few scene with them, and always in public. But in fact, it doesn't seem like Lucius doesn't care about Draco in CoS. The whole family seemed rather cold at the QWC, but they have been bested by the Weasley family in influence peddling, they were all upset. So I really see Draco as an intelligent, but physically weak version of Dudley.

Edit: to be sadistic means to enjoy someone else pain, mental or physical, right? Well, he seems to enjoy telling others painful truth and enjoy seeing them hurted.

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Miriam Huber - Jun 2, 2005 12:48 pm (#1001 of 1825)
I think there might be two reasons for Draco to want to be Harry´s friend:

1. In CoS Malfoy says to Draco it would not be prudent not fake being fond of Harry. The closer Draco is to Harry, the less people could associate him with the Dark Arts.

2. I suppose it would have been a big success for Malfoy, had he got Harry on "his side" (whatever that is: Voldemort´s or, as some believe, his own). Famous Harry Potter who had conquered the Dark Lord but was still rather clueless in the Wizarding World his son´s friend, he could have fed him with his values, prejudices, ... Every one would like to have "the weapon Harry Potter" on his side, wouldn´t he? And if Harry had been a pampered little prince, if he hadn´t had certain experiences at Privet Drive, especially with Dudley, and if Draco had been really clever, who can say he could not have succeeded?



Liz Mann - Jun 2, 2005 1:56 pm (#1002 of 1825)
1. In CoS Malfoy says to Draco it would not be prudent not fake being fond of Harry.

Actually what he said was it would not be prudent to appear less fond of Harry than everybody else is.

And if Harry had been a pampered little prince, if he hadn´t had certain experiences at Privet Drive, especially with Dudley, and if Draco had been really clever, who can say he could not have succeeded?

And if he hadn't insulted Ron and Hagrid on the train.



timrew - Jun 2, 2005 3:18 pm (#1003 of 1825)
Edited Jun 2, 2005 4:22 pm
Let's face it, Draco has burned his boats as far as it goes in Hogwarts, not to mention Crabbe and Goyle.

Their dads have been exposed as Death Eaters and are currently 'doing bird' in Alcatraz, er, Azkaban. Nobody but the lowest of the low would associate themselves with Draco and his gang any more. They have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. What else is there for them to do but ally themselves to Voldemort as 'Death Nibblers'?

So, they might start off as general gophers, making the tea at Death Eater meetings.......that sort of thing; then graduate to more serious stuff like.....making the strong, black coffee.

But I'm afraid they're all washed up as far as Hogwarts is concerned.......



Liz Mann - Jun 2, 2005 4:21 pm (#1004 of 1825)
Unless they redeem themselves, which I doubt. I should think Draco was probably already working for Voldemort, even if he wasn't a Death Eater. The Death Eaters aren't Voldemort's only supporters, they're just his inner circle. I mean, really, Voldemort's loyal supporters have sons and daughters in the very place where Dumbledore and Harry are - he'd be a fool not to ask them to keep him updated with what's going on, perhaps spy a bit. Maybe that's why Draco got himself on the I.S. Umbridge knows most of what goes on at Hogwarts after all.



Weeny Owl - Jun 2, 2005 8:44 pm (#1005 of 1825)
Draco is an arrogant, egotistical, self-important snot, and since he's so fond of telling everyone that his father associates with the top people in the Ministry, being able to claim the famous Harry Potter as a friend would feed his self-importance.

Harry rebuffed the offer of friendship from the son of a very rich man; a man who is not only well connected but who is also a school governor. Famous Harry Potter slapped Draco down like the nasty little insect he is, and Draco is always going to want revenge, I would think.



Netherlandic - Jun 3, 2005 11:17 am (#1006 of 1825)
He is also spoiled rotten, I think (materially).



Liz Mann - Jun 3, 2005 11:20 am (#1007 of 1825)
Although he does seem to care about his mother (like Harry). Remember it was a comment Harry made about Narcissa that made him try to curse Harry, resulting in Moody turning him into a ferret.



Steve Newton - Jun 3, 2005 11:23 am (#1008 of 1825)
Does that mean that there's hope for the boy yet?



Netherlandic - Jun 3, 2005 11:26 am (#1009 of 1825)
LOL!!!



Steve Newton - Jun 3, 2005 11:50 am (#1010 of 1825)
Now, now. Lets try not to be cynical.



Liz Mann - Jun 3, 2005 2:20 pm (#1011 of 1825)
No, I don't think so. Although I do think he has more hope of reforming than Lucius. The longer you live with your opinions, the less likely you are to change them. Which is why if we want to change this world, we have to rely on the young.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 3, 2005 3:00 pm (#1012 of 1825)
"Which is why if we want to change this world, we have to rely on the young."

Now that's a scary thought! Made me forget what I was going to post.

...toddles off for a butterbeer and a memory spell, be back later...



Solitaire - Jun 4, 2005 1:03 pm (#1013 of 1825)
those in the Slytherin house aren't 'evil' - they're just not nice

In CoS, Draco says the following to Harry and Ron when they are disguised as Crabbe and Goyle: ... last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed this time .... I hope it's Granger," he said with relish.

I may be harsh, but I think that sounds a heckuvalot more than "not nice." It is downright evil. And near the end of OotP we read the following: Malfoy glanced around--Harry knew he was checking for signs of teachers--then he looked back at Harry and said in a low voice, "You're dead, Potter." I think he was deadly serious. I suspect Draco will make a serious attempt on Harry's life at some point.

While it is true that not all Slytherins may necessarily be evil, I believe Draco truly is evil. It remains to be seen which way Crabbe and Goyle would go without Draco. I believe they are followers, and a non-evil Slytherin who is as strong as Draco might be able to pull them in a different direction. It's hard to say.

Solitaire



GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 1:38 pm (#1014 of 1825)
I'm not excusing Draco's words or behavior but his attitude in Chamber of Secrets could also partly be explained by the fact that he was 12 years old. Likewise, the comment to Harry that "You're Dead!" is said by an angry 15 year old boy. By the time he threatens Harry he has seen the effects of death form a distance (Cedric) but I think Death and Murder are still threats and taunts he likes to make that make him seem big like his father. I'm not convinced he truly understands what he is saying. Kids and even adults can be known to throw around the word dead or even joke about wanting someone dead without truly understanding what they are saying or even meaning it.

That being said, it would not surprise me if he does make an attempt on Harry's life. I could see him finally learning about death after killing something or someone (not Harry). I have a feeling that is how his father learned it as well. Draco spend a lot of time in the books trying to emulate his father. Lucius is a terrible role model but I suspect Draco will follow in his foot steps beautifully.



Solitaire - Jun 4, 2005 1:56 pm (#1015 of 1825)
Well, we do know he has not yet seen death firsthand--because he cannot see thestrals. But I still feel he means what he says about wanting the others to die. Everything he does is calculated to hurt others. I believe he would be quite capable of using an unforgiveable curse on Harry or Hermione--and maybe even Neville and Ron--and I think he is well on his way to becoming as evil as his dad and his Auntie Bella.

Solitaire



GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 2:46 pm (#1016 of 1825)
Solitare I agree with you, but I think he only thinks he means what he says about people dying. I think he will only truly know after he's already done it. I know I'm arguing over semantics but I think Draco is very immature compared with Harry at this point. While Draco doesn't fully understand the impact of his words, Harry does. While Draco means more than he is saying when he threatens people with murder Harry fully understands his threat. Draco thinks he's big hot stuff to make that threat, Harry knows he is a weak little fool to do so. Draco will carry out the threat and continue to do so trying again and again to feel big and powerful. He will only ever feel powerful by taking power away from someone else. Harry knows the only way to be powerful is to have people entrust you with power like the DA did with him. He is not afraid of Draco's threat and Draco thinks the threat will make Harry cower. I'm sure Draco will continue to try to make Harry cower at his feet.



Ponine - Jun 4, 2005 2:48 pm (#1017 of 1825)
I completely agree with you Gryffendora - I think Draco's comments could have been made by many, many teenagers around the world, and I do not think it makes him evil, or more evil than all the other children around the world who bullies their peers. I still believe that Draco can very much go both ways. I think that Draco is mostly treated like vermin by his father, and that Lucius is not impressed by his mini-me. Draco certainly has picked up on it, and I think this is where a lot of his anger stems from - he is simultaneously given the messages: 'You are a Malfoy and a pureblood, and thus better than most' as well as 'You cannot even do better than a mudblood'. In the scenes we see with Draco and his father, I am forcibly reminded of how some people treat their pricy and pretty, yet displeasing lapdogs.

Now that Lucius is - at least for the time being, outed, humiliated and away, Draco may try to step up and make his daddy proud, or he can decide in a Slytherin fashion that he is better off without pops, and perhaps - even - maybe - at least refrain from following in fathers footsteps.

cross-posted with Gryffendora! I agree again!



Weeny Owl - Jun 4, 2005 3:44 pm (#1018 of 1825)
I've never thought Draco was mistreated by his father. In CoS while in Borgin and Burkes it sounds as Lucius is unkind, yet if you analyze that part of the book closely, it seems to me as if Lucius is demonstrating remarkable patience with a tempermental child.

Draco has yet to learn the fine art of subtlety which his father demonstrates quite well. Draco sees Lucius being able to influence people, associating with only the top people at the Ministry, and having the power to force the Board of Governors to get rid of Dumbledore. Draco doesn't see that Lucius is an adult who has had plenty of time to gradually influence people and has perhaps taken years to get the top people in the Minsistry under his thumb. It wasn't until GoF that Fudge met Narcissa, so it wouldn't appear that they were that close before the Quidditch World Cup.

Draco sees power and influence and thinks that by his overt bullying he'll get his way. He doesn't realize that behind-the-scenes manipulation can work much more effectively than brute force.

What he's trying to do with Harry is use brute force, but that's his standard operating procedure. He has his two lackeys to back him up, but without them he's a coward. He may think he can scare Harry, but he doesn't truly understand that "Voldemort is just a warm-up act" is really how Harry views things. He has no fear of Draco because Draco doesn't matter.

I do think he'll try to do something to Harry, and JKR could take such a scenario and work it any number of ways. Draco won't win by killing Harry, obviously, but would she have him be expelled or even sent to Azkaban? She could do that and have Draco disappear for part of HbP and into part of the seventh book, but Draco wouldn't be gone permanently. Would she have him leave school and become a Death Eater? That's possible. Pretty much anything is possible, but I do think she'll keep him at Hogwarts since he's such a good nemesis for Harry without being a true threat.



Sticky Glue - Jun 4, 2005 4:21 pm (#1019 of 1825)
On JKR site, there's a happy birthday to Draco. Do any of you think that this might mean more than it is.



Eponine - Jun 4, 2005 4:47 pm (#1020 of 1825)
I'm a little surprised by the birthday wishes. He's the first 'evil' character to have his birthday listed.

I don't think this is an indication that he's really just a misunderstood little boy who just needs a puppy dog to love him. I don't know if it means anything beyond Jo wanting to give the legions of Draco fangirls something to make them happy. Maybe she's trying to be nice now because she's killing him off in HBP. I have no idea.



GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 4:48 pm (#1021 of 1825)
Ok, so, Happy Birthday Draco

. . . you little rat!

*edit* it certainly throws a wrench in some theories. I wonder what it means.



Liz Mann - Jun 4, 2005 4:50 pm (#1022 of 1825)
She's had happy birthdays for several characters on there.

But wait a minute... Draco's birthday is June 6th...? That means he's going to turn 17 near the end of this book. Do you think Voldemort will initiate him into the Death Eaters when he turns 17? Perhaps in time for the final scenes in HBP? Or maybe during the summer between this book and the seventh?



Neville Longbottom - Jun 4, 2005 4:57 pm (#1023 of 1825)
[nitpick]It's June 5th.[/nitpick]

And yes, I thought he would become a Death Eater finally. Now I'm more doubtful about this.



haymoni - Jun 4, 2005 5:45 pm (#1024 of 1825)
I think it is interesting that our young Mr. Malfoy is a Gemini.

Regarding Draco befriending Harry in SS/PS - I used to think he was "under orders" from Lucius to befriend Harry, but as I re-read that section, I find that his enthusiasm is too strong. He reacts as if meeting a rock star. "I hear Harry Potter is in this compartment. Is it you?"

I think at age 11, Draco may have been exposed to the bigotry of his parents, but he might not have known at THAT time that Lucius was a Death Eater. When "the whole school knows" about Quirrel & Voldy, I'm sure Lucius now realizes that his Master is still about.

I think the comment Sirius made about Peter waiting until Voldy was the biggest bully on the block can also be applied to Lucius. He knows that some form of Voldy was at Hogwarts, yet he doesn't go looking for his former Master.

Lucius may know that the jig is up - the raids scare him further - he brings his son to a Dark Arts shop to "trade in" his goodies - I'm guessing Draco is catching on.

By the time we get to the World Cup, Draco knows all and is proud of his parents. He may be a junior Regulus Black - fond of the pure-blood rhetoric but not realizing fully what Voldy's plan might be.



Weeny Owl - Jun 4, 2005 8:26 pm (#1025 of 1825)
Maybe it means that Draco will be the first Death Nibbler to be killed? Maybe it doesn't mean anything except she's going to add more characters between now and the last book. She may not have chosen birthdays for everyone until she started her website and is starting to fill in days of characters who get a lot of attention.



Solitaire - Jun 4, 2005 11:18 pm (#1026 of 1825)
Maybe it means Draco will be the first of the current generation of kids to become a DE. Then again, maybe it just means Happy Birthday, Draco ... a character whose birthday is coming up. Sometimes, a cigar really is just a cigar.

Solitaire



timrew - Jun 5, 2005 12:34 pm (#1027 of 1825)
A proud moment for Lucius, as Draco gets his 'mark' from Voldemort.

Lucius wiped away a tear, using his house-elf as a handkerchief, "My boy! A Death Eater at last!"



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 5, 2005 3:36 pm (#1028 of 1825)
LOL, timrew.

Just wanted to say Happy Birthday to Draco!

But, wonder how Dumbledore would react having a DE at a Hogwarts. I don't think he would allow it, but then I couldn't see him kicking anybody out. There's also the question of whether Draco would actually come back to Hogwarts. Might be too busy working for Voldy... especially once he comes of age.



Czarina II - Jun 6, 2005 12:45 am (#1029 of 1825)
Oh, happy belated birthday to Draco. Antagonists have birthdays too, I guess. Who'd have thought? ;-) Now I want to know when Voldemort's birthday is.

Going back to the question of maturity, I think the "You're dead, Potter"//"Funny, you'd think I'd have stopped walking around" exchange demonstrates the difference between Draco and Harry.

When Draco says "You're dead, Potter," he does not really believe his words. Obviously, Harry is not yet dead, because Draco is threatening him. Rather, Draco is just posturing and trying to sound evil to intimidate Harry, because he is very angry at him. He does not yet realise the gravity of his statement.

Harry answers with a (rather sarcastic) quip because he does realise the seriousness of "you're dead". To him, 'dead' means 'dead'. He has seen death firsthand and experienced its loss. Draco cannot comprehend this -- to him, 'dead' sounds like a good threat. It would work that way with Ron, perhaps, but not Harry. Harry recognised the empty phrase for what it was, and pointed it out quite succinctly.



applepie - Jun 6, 2005 6:52 am (#1030 of 1825)
I agree, Czarina II. I also believe that Harry is not afraid of Draco because he has dealt with so much worse. So even if Harry saw Draco's statement as a threat, I don't think it would cause him sleepless nights.



Mistress Gim - Jun 6, 2005 11:29 am (#1031 of 1825)
This might be a bit late in coming, but if Draco's birthday is the 5th of June, that sort of screws over my earlier post about it being in September. I suppose I'm not the best in choosing...

::Wanders off to fix story::



Night Owl - Jun 10, 2005 12:58 pm (#1032 of 1825)
I don't know if this has been brought up before. And if it has I apologize. But Draco has proven he is a real coward. I can not believe that if he saw Voldemort that he would do anything but scream bloody murder and run. Harry has shown how brave he can be, but was utterly terrified when he was tied to the grave headstone. If in the up coming book he does come face to face, I think he will do a Draco's Detour. Draco as has Dudley been brought up to be hateful and racist. But when put to the test both are very weak. Draco is only tough as long as he has Crabbe and Goyle standing behind him. Dudley the same with his little band of thugs. But when something really scary happens neither can with stand the test. I hope for both their sakes that they can have a turn around in their lives. Its very sad to see parents raise their children as these boys have been raised.



applepie - Jun 10, 2005 1:36 pm (#1033 of 1825)
Interesting theory, Night Owl. But, I sincerely hope Draco's Detour has a little more to do with Draco himself, and not Harry acting cowardly like him.

I do agree with you about Draco being comparable to Dudley. I guess Harry is meant to deal with that type of personality whether he is at Hogwarts, or Privet Dr.



Night Owl - Jun 10, 2005 5:26 pm (#1034 of 1825)
Applepie. please don't misunderstand about my thoughts on Harry, he is far from cowardly. I am just saying that if Draco came anywhere near to what Harry has been through and seen, he would wet himself. And I hope that Draco's Detour is his life style and thinking. Maybe LV will show up for his support now that Malfoy is in jail and Draco will realize that this is not the road for him. Here is hoping anyway.



applepie - Jun 13, 2005 2:05 pm (#1035 of 1825)
Night Owl - Not a problem. I understand you perfectly. I was just building an assumption based on what you stated, and one that I hoped might not come true.



Choices - Jun 16, 2005 10:10 am (#1036 of 1825)
I am rereading GOF and was to the place last night where Mad-Eye Moody turns Draco into a white ferret. It got me to wondering why a white ferret? We know that ferrets are part of the weasel family (Weasley?) and Draco has white/blond hair. Both the Malfoys and the Weasleys are supposedly pure-blood families and most of the pure blood families are related. Is JKR hinting that there is a closer connection between Draco and the red headed Weasleys perhaps? Why did JKR choose a white ferret when she could have chosen any creature? A white cat, a white rat, a white squirrel, etc.



Solitaire - Jun 16, 2005 11:04 am (#1037 of 1825)
Well, we know from Sirius that Arthur Weasley is some sort of shirt-tail relative of his, correct? We also know that Narcissa is Sirius's first cousin. If we acknowledge that there has been a certain amount of intermarriage among the more distant pure-blood relatives, they probably are related somewhere down the line.

Solitaire



frogface - Jun 16, 2005 1:09 pm (#1038 of 1825)
It could be an indication of what Malfoy would be if he was an animagus perhaps. It would be quite ironic after his weasel jokes Smile



Solitaire - Jun 16, 2005 8:55 pm (#1039 of 1825)
LOL Frogface! However, I really do not want to think about an animagus Draco ... do you? Then again, perhaps, if he were to transform around Buckbeak, he might become an "appetizer"!

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - Jun 16, 2005 9:09 pm (#1040 of 1825)
For some reason I think that I see Draco's animagus being a horny toad, you know one of those poisones ones?



Tomoé - Jun 16, 2005 9:39 pm (#1041 of 1825)
I remember reading on quickquote that the scene in which Moody transform Draco into a ferret wasn't planned, it just came as JKR was writing. I can't remember the exact wording, I tried some keywords, but it didn't work. I'll try again tomorrow.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 16, 2005 11:41 pm (#1042 of 1825)
Just from the fact that Hagrid feeds Buckbeak dead ferrets, I got the impression that JKR is not a ferret lover. A ferret may have been the first small critter JKR thought of. Draco reduced to a helpless little critter. Besides, he did bounce so well!

...toddles off with the same enraptured look Ron had remembering that scene...



Denise P. - Jun 17, 2005 10:19 am (#1043 of 1825)
Vulture asked on a different thread-> By the way, a lot of you think Draco is more evil than the "usual" Slytherins. I think the opposite _ my hunch is that he's secretly jealous of Harry and would like to be his friend: but on Draco's ideal terms, of course.

Tomoé answered ->I think Draco is the usual shortsighted Slytherin who is ready to take the foulest means just to live up to his house's name. But I also believe some Slytherins doesn't feel the need to prove it and some others who understand how taking the foulest means to achieve any silly end will prevent them to get what they really want when the time will comes. Snape seems to prefer the first category, especially for Quidditch, but that doesn't mean all the Slytherins are carbon copies of Crabbe and Goyle.



Vulture - Jun 21, 2005 2:13 pm (#1044 of 1825)
Just started reading this thread (but couldn't get through all !!). Some thoughts ...

One mentioned frequently _ that Snape likes Draco and will have some role in pulling him back from the brink, especially now that Lucius is in prison (for the present). I'm not sure whether Lucius being in prison makes that more likely, but I agree about Snape's regard for Draco _ we're told in Book 1 that Draco was one of the few students "he seemed to like", and in Book 5 he's still calling him "Draco" _ I know of no other student, even from Slytherin, whom Snape calls by his/her first name.

We must be careful about this one, however _ there are a lot of variables. After all, we know little about Snape's spying activities, but one of the few hints we get is in Book 5, during his quarrel with Sirius, where we gather that he has some sort of contact with Lucius Malfoy. So, it could be that Snape is simply using Draco, to keep in with his father. Not very nice, but I can easily imagine Snape having a bit of an end-justifies-the-means attitude, even when working for Dumbledore.

Mind you, looking at it the other way around, the books are fairly quiet on Draco's feelings towards Snape, though there are two hints: in "Chamber Of Secrets", Draco enthuses about the idea of Snape becoming Headmaster, and in "Order Of The Phoenix", when Draco interrupts the "Remedial Potions" (!!), it is interesting to note that he seems to feel comfortable enough with Snape to go to his office anytime. (I mean, one doesn't usually think of Snape as the caring, my-door-is-always-open sort of teacher, even towards Slytherins). So there is a feeling that Draco really likes his Head Of House _ which, of course, makes the question of Snape's exact attitude to Draco more poignant.

Incidentally, it's well to compare the Lucius-Draco and Snape-Draco relationships. Lucius buys his son gifts and spoils him, yes, but I wouldn't describe him as a loving father. His conversation with Draco in Book 2 indicates an attitude not far removed from that towards his estates or possesions. The particular way he sneers (in public, humiliatingly) about Draco's school marks and "letting a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam" conveys a feeling of a child being, to Lucius, an investment _ in family pride, academic success, and snobbery. The gifts and spoiling are actually part of this _ of course, Draco exploits them, but it's bad for him, and it's not true love. Measure his situation against how Ron's parents treat him, and you see it clearly.

What about Snape ? As I said above, he may be just using Draco _ we don't know. I like to hope he isn't. If he isn't, then what we see of him shows a somewhat better (though far from perfect) attitude towards Draco than Lucius's. That is to say, Snape is over-indulgent and unfair in favouring Draco when it's a matter of scoring points off Harry and the Gryffindors. But within Slytherin itself, my impression is that he treats Draco kindly enough but does not spoil him _ and the difference in Draco's attitude is noticeable. When Draco refers to his father in Book 1, Harry is "strongly reminded of Dudley". When Draco refers to Snape, one gets a whiff of _ dare one say this ? _ something like actual respect.

Apart from all that, on the question of whether Draco will change sides (with or without Snape's help): my feeling is that it would take something really drastic to make Draco really change. True, I have said elsewhere that I feel that Draco is secretly jealous of Harry and, in a strange sort of way, may even have originally wanted to be friends (he did offer his hand in Book 1, after all). But as things are up to now, Draco would only have ever wanted that on his own terms _ which of course, is the opposite of true friendship, freely given. Deep down, his failure to form true, free friendship may frustrate Draco _ the sight of Harry's success in this would certainly account for his obsessively always trying to get in Harry's face. (Harry doesn't like Draco, but he doesn't get obsessed about their enmity (perhaps once or twice in Book 1).)

Anyway, the most likely scenario I can think of that could change Draco is if some situation arose where Voldemort felt it necessary (for whatever reason) to order Lucius to kill Draco. Remember what Hagrid said in Book 3 _ that when a wizard goes to the Dark Side, bonds of friends and family don't matter to him/her anymore ? If that turns out to be true, and Draco sees his own father choose to obey Voldemort, and if, say, Harry and his friends then step in and save Draco's life _ well, that would almost certainly blow Draco's world out of the water. And it would obviously set up a debt of gratitude to Harry.



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 21, 2005 4:58 pm (#1045 of 1825)
Nice assessment, Vulture. You should post that in the essays section! A situation like that seems highly probable, especially during the war that's currently going on. I could also see a situation where Draco has to choose between his father (and Voldemort) and Snape (and Dumbledore). It would be wonderful to see Draco fighting alongside Harry - maybe even joining the DA. It doesn't seem like it would take a whole lot to convert characters like Draco and Dudley.



Vulture - Jun 23, 2005 2:01 pm (#1046 of 1825)
Hi, Aqualu Nifey: I gather you're posting in from the States ? Anyway, thanks for what you say, but how DO you post into the essays section ? _ I was in there just now, and there doesn't seem to be any button or link to create a new essay.

Anyway, if you liked this essay, what do you think of my "The Slytherins: Why Does Dumbledore Tolerate Them" thread ? _ read #1 !!



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 26, 2005 1:56 pm (#1047 of 1825)
Yeah, but I was referring to the war in the Wizarding World. You know... with Voldemort and Dumbledore and the Prophecy...yeah. But I don't know how to post an essay. There don't seem to be anymore recent ones, maybe you can't anymore.

PS: I think you're right on with #4.



Choices - Jun 26, 2005 2:00 pm (#1048 of 1825)
Where are you all talking about - essay section???? I have been here a good while and have never seen a section for essays. Are you talking about the FanFic Section??



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 26, 2005 2:06 pm (#1049 of 1825)
Choices, go back to the Lexicon home page and the essay section is on the top bar abouve the covers of the books.



Choices - Jun 26, 2005 2:09 pm (#1050 of 1825)
Oh, OK. Thanks - I almost never go there - no wonder I haven't noticed it. Guess I need to get out of the Forum more and look around. LOL

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Draco Malfoy Empty Posts 1051 to 1100

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Doris Crockford - Jun 26, 2005 3:09 pm (#1051 of 1825)
I think essays have to be submitted to Steve, the Lexicon owner for them to be put in the lexicon. I don't think they can just be posted by anyone. Of course, I have no idea how to actually go about submitting them to Steve.

Vulture, first of all- good post. Your ideas were very intriguing, especially Lucius' idea of what a child is good for. I have a question for you (and anyone else). Draco treats Harry badly- goes out of his way to pick a fight with him- in spite of what his father said (that it's not smart to appear less than fond of Potter). Do you think he continues to fight because of Snape's treatment of Harry, or does Draco just not care as much about his father's opinion as he would seem (constantly refering to his father)?



Penny Lane. - Jun 26, 2005 6:25 pm (#1052 of 1825)
I don't think that Lexicon Steve normally takes unsolicted submissions.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think that Draco continues to fight with Harry because he doesn't really care. Draco grew up spoiled, rich, and probably bullied by his father. His father asks him in his second year not to appear less than *fond* of Harry - but that was in the second year. By OoP, I'm sure Draco had Lucius' fully approval to mock and bully Harry all to his heart's content.



MickeyCee3948 - Jun 26, 2005 6:38 pm (#1053 of 1825)
You might want to post a question to the hosts in the 11th thread from the top about how to post an essay.

Mickey



Denise P. - Jun 26, 2005 6:41 pm (#1054 of 1825)
The Hosts will refer you to the link Penny posted We don't post essays here and Steve has guidelines in place for submitting to the Lexicon itself.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2005 1:32 am (#1055 of 1825)
"Do you think he continues to fight because of Snape's treatment of Harry, or does Draco just not care as much about his father's opinion as he would seem (constantly referring to his father)?"

I think Snapes attitudes and actions egg him on, and Draco seems to be desperately seeking his fathers approval, (or anyone else's).

He is trying, like so many bullies, to find a place to fit in...



Solitaire - Jun 27, 2005 11:44 am (#1056 of 1825)
I expect that Draco, having been raised in a Wizarding home (and Dark Wizards, at that), has heard of Harry Potter since he has been old enough to remember. He has known what happened, he has known Harry is his age, and he has known he will eventually encounter him at Hogwarts. I'm quite sure he has also been informed by his dad that Harry the orphan has been raised among Muggles all his life and most likely has had no magical practice or experience, giving Draco a distinct advantage over him.

So what happens his first year? Harry is chosen as the Gryffindor Seeker. Harry gets his own racing broom. Harry faces Voldemort again, survives, and manages to save the Philosopher's Stone into the bargain!

In his second year, Harry tangles with Riddle and kills the Basilisk, saving Ginny into the bargain. He is once again the hero! In his fourth year, he survives the Triwizard Tournament and a death-duel with Voldemort himself, in the presence of all of the DEs. Lucius was there, so he is able to know exactly what Harry can do. In his fifth year, despite crushing pressure from many quarters, Harry still manages to survive yet another encounter with Voldemort ... not to mention Big Daddy Malfoy himself. Not only that, Malfoy lands in prison! Hm ...

This must go down hard with someone like Draco, who has been "groomed" all his life to believe he is better than everyone else. Not only that, who are Harry's friends? The son of a man whom the Malfoys hold in contempt as beneath them, and a Muggle-born Witch who continually wipes the floor with Draco, both magically and intellectually.

Draco is probably a bit more cunning than many bullies. Alas, his anger makes him behave stupidly sometimes (as does Harry's). I agree with TBE that Snape's attitude toward and treatment of Harry egg him on. I also think that Snape's general unfairness to the Trio and his blatant favoritism (not the same as actually liking him) toward Draco and his goon squad tend to perpetuate the entire situation.

Solitaire



Doris Crockford - Jun 27, 2005 12:05 pm (#1057 of 1825)
Thanks for your answers, Penny, TBE and Solitaire. I also realized that Lucius himself has not exactly listened to his own advice about not appearing less than fond of Harry- even at the end of Chamber, Lucius is fairly obvious about his dislike of Harry. With such great role models (note the sarcasm), I guess it's hardly odd that Draco treats Harry the way he does.



Choices - Jun 27, 2005 6:15 pm (#1058 of 1825)
I think that advice was only for Draco because he was at school with Harry - Lucius knew that Harry was a "big deal" and it would be favorable to be his friend, but I do not think Lucius applied that advice to himself since he had nothing to gain from sucking up to Harry.



zelmia - Jun 27, 2005 8:12 pm (#1059 of 1825)
But he did by "sucking up" to the Minister for Magic.



Solitaire - Jun 27, 2005 10:39 pm (#1060 of 1825)
Initially, Lucius may have felt it would be to his advantage to avoid hostilities with Harry Potter, if only to have greater access to him, should the need arise. Once Harry set up Lucius to inadvertently free Dobby, however, I think all bets were off. From that point, Lucius was as openly hostile as Draco to Harry. He realizes Harry isn't fooled one bit by his "respectability" guise; and of course, all bets are off after Voldemort's rebirth. My only question: Just how much does Draco know of his father's history with the DEs and his current activities? Knowing he was a DE is one thing. Knowing specific deeds is another. I wonder ...

Solitaire



zelmia - Jun 28, 2005 12:25 pm (#1061 of 1825)
Edited Jun 28, 2005 1:22 pm
Well, I got the impression Draco was pretty well in, as far as knowledge of his father's "activities" is concerned, from his comments to the Trio after the QWC in GF. And at at the end of that book, when only a select few characters are truly aware of Voldemort's rebirth, Draco is fully knowledgeable on the subject - which means he is very well aware that his father (and also Crabbe's and Goyle's) was at the Rebirthing ceremony. He even reminds Harry of their first introduction on the Train; referencing how Draco had told (warned) him about "making friends with the wrong sort".



Weeny Owl - Jun 28, 2005 12:38 pm (#1062 of 1825)
I do wonder how Draco would react if he were to come face to face with the current Voldemort. With the red eyes and their cat-like pupils, and having slits for nostrils similar to a snake, would Draco truly see this creature as his version of the Wizarding World's savior?

Draco doesn't seem to be that brave, considering how he ran from the Forbidden Forest in the first book, and I cannot quite picture him viewing those eyes and those nostrils and not quaking in fear.



Vulture - Jun 29, 2005 7:59 am (#1063 of 1825)
Doris Crockford _ As regards your question of Jun 26, 2005 3:09 pm (#1051), I think Penny Lane (#1052) answers it perfectly. I'm not too clear, however, that Draco does change his behaviour even during 2nd Year. A related point _ if you go back over Books 1 and 2 together, I feel that you may agree that, overall, Ron has a more constantly active enmity towards Draco (gives him a black eye in Book 1) _ I put this down to the dislike between the Weasleys and Malfoys generally.

As regards posting essays _ I'm flattered that ye all want to get mine up there, but I'm quite happy to scatter my waffle all over the threads for the present !!

Weeny Owl (#1062) _ all the Death Eaters are afraid of LV, but it doesn't stop them serving him.



Weeny Owl - Jun 29, 2005 10:28 am (#1064 of 1825)
all the Death Eaters are afraid of LV, but it doesn't stop them serving him.

This is true, but we don't know what he looked like before his first downfall at Godric's Hollow. He may have looked human then. His followers would understand they have no choice but to serve him, but I can't see Draco getting up the intestinal fortitude necessary if Voldemort is as hideous as he's described.

I'm not talking about whether or not Draco becomes a Death Eater. I'm just wondering what his reaction would be coming face to face with his father's version of the savior of the Wizarding World.



Solitaire - Jun 29, 2005 11:25 am (#1065 of 1825)
I can't help wondering ... what if Lucius rather than Peter had found Voldemort when he was too weak to hold a wand? Would Lucius have helped him return to full strength? Do you think power-hungry Lucius would have attempted to vanquish the weakened Voldemort for good, or would he have felt (known?) Voldemort was invincible, even in the weakened state? Could Lucius have stood looking at Voldemort back then? Didn't Voldemort make some remark to Wormtail about being repulsed by him? Just wondering, since Voldemort's appearance was mentioned ...

Solitaire



haymoni - Jun 29, 2005 5:02 pm (#1066 of 1825)
Interesting thoughts, Solitare.

Lucius certainly seemed stunned when Voldy was back to full strength.

My first reaction to your questions was of course he would help his old master.

But then I started thinking further...

Lucius has had quite a cushy life for himself after The Fall. He's cozied up to Fudge. He's seen as quite the philanthropist ("good-deed doer"). He claimed to have been Imperio'd.

How better to secure his spot in history than by blasting away Voldemort?

He could still hate Muggles and Half-bloods. He just doesn't have to feel that burn on his arm everytime Voldy gets bored.

I think he may have AK'd the weakened Voldy.



Vulture - Jun 30, 2005 8:33 am (#1067 of 1825)
Well, I think we're all going way off this particular thread, but if you want to speculate on Lucius's take on things, here's a wild possibility:

We're told that Snape once "turned spy" for Dumbledore, and we think (from Books 4 and 5) that he's doing that again. On the other hand, at his re-birth gathering, Voldemort mentions a Death Eater "who has left me forever ... he will be killed", and it seems that he is referring to Snape. Also, we know that he is an extremely good Legilimens, so _ although Snape is no bad Occlumens himself _ it would seem risky for Snape to run back to LV and pretend he was re-joining. Equally, if he tried to avoid LV and simply deceive other Death Eaters _ like Lucius, whom we know he contacts in Book 5 _ there is the problem that Voldemort would presumably have put all the Death Eaters on their guard.

But suppose Snape is not a simple spy, but a controller, running Lucius Malfoy as his agent on the inside ? Not that Lucius would be doing this from secret goodness _ in fact, being good would expose him to LV's Legilimens skills. Suppose that Lucius simply wants to play both sides to protect himself ? He might prefer Voldemort to win, but realise that there are good odds on Dumbledore, and make a bargain with Snape to cover himself.

If this is happening, Draco would be kept well in the dark _ so this is totally irrelevant to this thread, I'm afraid !!



Solitaire - Jun 30, 2005 1:27 pm (#1068 of 1825)
It is off-topic, Vulture, as I noted when I posted my original response about Lucius. We should move it over to the Lucius Malfoy thread--perhaps with a link to pertinent posts here--if anyone wants to discuss it.

To get things back on track ... I am not really sure how to read Draco. It would be fascinating, I think, to see some sort of encounter between him and Voldemort. It will be interesting to see what effect Lucius's "outing" as a DE and his incarceration have on Draco. Will they nudge him into full-fledged DE-dom, or will he commit some other sort of evil behavior? I truly cannot imagine him on the side of good, no matter how hard I have tried ... really.

Solitaire

Edit: Oops! I didn't note it. I thought I had ...



Tomoé - Jun 30, 2005 2:18 pm (#1069 of 1825)
I can't see Draco on the side of Dumbledore's crowd either, but the means to achieve his goals could need Dumbledore's crowd's help.



Aqualu Nifey - Jul1, 2005 7:49 pm (#1070 of 1825)
THAT wouldn't get Draco anywhere. The Order might grudgingly help Malfoy, but they wouldn't trust him. It would also make Voldemort and Lucius very upset with him. I can imagine Voldemort Crucio-ing Lucius because of his son siding with Dumbledore. Which might lead to Lucius Crucio-ing/AK-ing/disowning Draco.



Vulture - Jul3, 2005 2:19 pm (#1071 of 1825)
Hi, Solitaire _ I am moving the Lucius spy theory to his own thread ...

Apart from that _ a thought that occurs to me about a debate that I seem to have run into on several threads: i.e. debate about the idea (which I disagree with) that Draco & friends (i.e. all the Slytherins who've been so far named) are "untypical" of Slytherin House, and that there's a silent (very very silent !!) majority _ or group, at least _ of Slytherins who are more pro-Dumbledore.

Anyway, I won't re-hash the whole debate, but here's something obvious which I forgot: Dumbledore made Draco a prefect.

And no _ before anyone says it _ I don't believe that appointing Slytherin prefects is outside Dumbledore's control. In Book 5, there are three references to Dumbledore as the one who could have made Harry a prefect. If he has that power over appointing Gryffindor prefects, he must have it over the other Houses. Of course, I expect that he would consult with the House heads, and it isn't surprising that Snape would favour Draco.

But my main point is that, far from being "untypical" of Slytherin, his appointment as a prefect would seem to indicate that Dumbledore views Draco as the best Slytherin House can come up with in that particular year.

(Apologies if someone else has made this point already somewhere _ it's a pretty obvious one.)



haymoni - Jul3, 2005 4:15 pm (#1072 of 1825)
What would have happened if Dumbledore HADN'T picked Malfoy as prefect?

Draco would have made such a fuss - Lucius would have been livid but Dumbledore has HIS number - Draco would have made life miserable for whatever poor soul ended up with "his" badge.

"Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer."



MickeyCee3948 - Jul3, 2005 5:12 pm (#1073 of 1825)
Agree totally haymoni, I was just about to put the quote in my post when I noticed you had it at the end. By making Malfoy a prefect he put him in a leadership position, showing every other student in Hogwarts what Malfoy was capable of.

Mickey



Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul4, 2005 3:11 am (#1074 of 1825)
I don't believe Dumbledore would have worried too much about the fuss the Malfoys may have made if Draco wasn't made a prefect... Dumbledore has never before attempted to please the Malfoys (or anyone else, for that matter), otherwise he would have sacked Hagrid in PoA like Lucius wanted.

Dumbledore probably knew that most of the Slytherins seem to take orders from Malfoy anyway (or at least hold his opinion in high regard). Appointing a different prefect would just be putting a middle-man between Draco and the position, not really denying him the post.



Weeny Owl - Jul4, 2005 4:33 am (#1075 of 1825)
Up until the fifth book what had Draco ever done in front of Dumbledore that would prevent him from being a prefect?

I'm not defending him; I am honestly curious.

He, Crabbe, Goyle, and Marcus Flint pretended to be dementors, but that was insignificant. He faked the severity of his hippogriff injury, true, but he got away with it. What else could he have done that would have made Dumbledore appoint someone else?



haymoni - Jul4, 2005 7:48 am (#1076 of 1825)
Dumbledore knew Lucius was behind the diary incident and he knows that Lucius knows that he knew - (how's that one?) That's why Dumbledore wouldn't care what Lucius thought.

But Draco IS the leader of his year, good or bad. Choosing anyone else would undermine the whole prefect system. Draco would cause more trouble as a non-prefect than as a prefect. Extra trouble at Hogwarts? Dumbledore "had much more important things to be getting on with".



Vulture - Jul4, 2005 11:17 am (#1077 of 1825)
No, folks _ I don't agree: remember, Dumbledore is the one who exhorts Hogwarts (and us) to choose what's right instead of what's easy.

Yes, "Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer" is a good line (is it originally in The Godfather, or somwhere else before that ?), and Dumbledore does address the needs of strategy, but never, as far as I know, at the cost of justice. If there was a Slytherin 5th Year who clearly deserved to be Prefect rather than Malfoy, I believe Dumbledore would not only apponit him but support him if Draco tried anything. Dumbledore believes in standing up to wrongdoing, remember.

I believe that Draco is simply the best of a bad lot, odd though that may seem (not least to Harry).

He, Crabbe, Goyle, and Marcus Flint pretended to be dementors, but that was insignificant. (Weeny Owl [/b]- Jul4 (#1075)) _ I don't agree. Harry could have been killed _ in fact, if it hadn't been for Lupin's Patronus training, which helped his confidence, he very well might have been. Draco & Co. didn't understand the full reasons why the Dementors had made Harry fall the first time, so it wasn't their fault he wasn't killed the second time (which was what they intended). Paradoxically, they were lucky that, of all teachers other than Snape, they were caught by McGonagall, who appears to be incredibly "politically correct" about how many points she takes from any House but her own.



Weeny Owl - Jul4, 2005 11:49 am (#1078 of 1825)
When Draco & Company pretended to be dementors, nothing happened, though. It was a childish prank - nothing more. I don't think they were trying to kill Harry. I think the only reason it happened was because Draco was being his usual bratty self, but I can't see that Harry's life was in danger from them pretending to be dementors. They didn't affect Harry at all. He cast his Patronus charm and that was that.

The fact remains, Draco really did nothing before the fifth book that would keep him from being a prefect. He did fewer things, really, than Ron and Hermione.

As I said, I'm not defending him. I can't stand the rotten little snot, but his nasty personality isn't enough to keep him from being a prefect, unfortuately.



Solitaire - Jul5, 2005 10:23 am (#1079 of 1825)
When Draco & Company pretended to be dementors, nothing happened, though. It was a childish prank - nothing more.

I respectfully disagree. Draco & Co. had already seen Harry take a dive at a previous Quidditch game. The only reason he was not seriously harmed (or worse) that time was that Dumbledore slowed his fall. I think Draco intended that Harry would fall again and be injured or possibly killed. Fortunately, the tables were turned and they were the ones who were scared nearly to death by Harry's Patronus.

As for the Prefect business, I must agree with Vulture: I believe that Draco is simply the best of a bad lot, odd though that may seem`... Sadly, that does not bode well for the rest of them, does it? I confess that I've sometimes wondered why Theo Nott wasn't chosen. Surely he is not stupider than Draco. I mean, aren't Crabbe & Goyle enough? I can only assume it's because Theo is more "low profile" than Draco.

Solitaire



wwtMask - Jul5, 2005 10:58 am (#1080 of 1825)
Unfortunately, we really don't have enough information to determine the criteria for being a prefect. I think we can make a few guesses, however, from what little (or a lot, depending on who you are) we know about the prefect system for British schools as well as the prefects we've known in the books. I think that the recommendation of the heads of the houses are paramount. I think that the student will have demonstrated leadership, good sense, and strong will. The student will have distinguished themselves somehow from their peers (grades, activities, etc). The student will have shown the ability to maintain their grades while being active in other activities. They won't be troublemakers.

I've gotten these main ideas from the prefects we know (Sorry if they're mostly obvious). From those criteria, Harry would've easily been prefect over the other Gryffendor boys. By the same token, we know that Draco probably gets high marks if he's chasing Hermione, he plays quidditch, has coordinated Slytherin house on numerous anti-Harry schemes, and we have no proof of him being constantly in trouble. Even without Snape's recommendation, I'd say he was prefect material, his attitude notwithstanding. It could be that he really is the "best of the worst", but being a prefect isn't relative to your attitude or even necessarily your ethics, it's relative to your qualifications as far as the head of your house and Dumbledore are concerned.



Weeny Owl - Jul5, 2005 8:55 pm (#1081 of 1825)
I respectfully disagree. Draco & Co. had already seen Harry take a dive at a previous Quidditch game. The only reason he was not seriously harmed (or worse) that time was that Dumbledore slowed his fall. I think Draco intended that Harry would fall again and be injured or possibly killed.

Yes, they saw Harry take a dive and they saw Dumbledore slow Harry's fall, and that's why I don't think they meant to do anything more than cause a distraction. Granted, Draco said in second year he wanted the Heir of Slytherin to kill Hermione, but that was a blood thing. What he has with Harry is a rivalry, and while it's possible he might have wanted Harry dead in third year, knowing thirteen-year-old boys, it's just as likely that he wanted Harry to lose the Quidditch match as well as be humiliated yet again from being so badly affected by dementors.

Draco was malicious in fourth year with the interviews with Rita Skeeter, but again, he wanted to see the people he dislikes embarrassed.

Now if this were to happen in sixth year, after Lucius being in Azkaban, I would definitely think Draco wanted Harry dead, but in third year I don't believe that was his goal.



Solitaire - Jul5, 2005 11:28 pm (#1082 of 1825)
That's the beauty of the forum. I am free to continue to think he really does want Harry dead. I truly do think Draco is evil, Weeny.



Weeny Owl - Jul6, 2005 2:08 am (#1083 of 1825)
I think he's on his way to being truly evil, and in HbP I hope Harry watches his back and doesn't underestimate the little snot.



frogface - Jul6, 2005 4:18 am (#1084 of 1825)
I sort of agree with both of you. In a way I think Draco does want Harry dead, but he doesn't fully understand the weight of death. He's far too immature to fully appreciate what dying really is. He may have meant what he said about Hermione, but I don't think he really understood what he was saying. As for the quidditch match, I think that was purely based on trying to stop Gryffindor winning the match, seeing as Marcus Flint was in on the prank to. However they probably wouldn't have been all that concerned at the idea of Harry being seriously injured.



Weeny Owl - Jul7, 2005 1:11 am (#1085 of 1825)
That's what I was trying to say, frogface. It's one thing to sit in your common room talking about wanting someone dead, but if Harry had been killed or seriously injured, Draco probably wouldn't have been the least bit upset, but it's quite another to overtly plot and plan someone's demise. Draco didn't have the hardness or understanding needed in third year, but in sixth year, I think he might.



rambkowalczyk - Jul7, 2005 4:19 am (#1086 of 1825)
It seems like there is a close relationship between Draco and Snape. I think some have speculated that Snape might be a godfather. If we accept Snape as pro-Dumbledore then Snape would want to protect Draco from making the wrong choices (like Snape did as a teenager) yet Snape can't say don't do what I did. He may have strongly recommended to Dumbledore to make Draco a prefect in hopes that Draco wouldn't become a Death Eater. Clearly it doesn't seem to be working but what else could Snape do?



Vulture - Jul7, 2005 2:55 pm (#1087 of 1825)
I think Snape's attitude (to Draco or anything else) is based on Snape's very complex and very enigmatic personality, which we just can't debate here _ but it makes it difficult to say what his effect on Draco will be _ only to be known by end of Book 7, I suspect.

Weeny Owl & others _ re the Quidditch match: (1) we don't know that Draco actually saw Dumbledore slow down Harry, so that's a thin point for the defence;

(2) even if he did, he could see that Dumbledore wasn't at the match against Hufflepuff _ as in Book 1, he didn't turn up to every match in a school year;

(3) Draco wasn't alone under the cloak _ Marcus Flint (from a senior year) was there too, and others, so between them, they knew what they were doing all right. Messing with someone's broomstick flight when they're at a great height is not something you do for "a prank" _ in Book 1, the mere thought of what could happen on a broom high up was enough to send Draco fleeing from Harry like a hare out of a trap.

I agree that Draco has certain points in his nature (see my post #1044) which could push him towards redemption _ but only if life gives him a very, very hard kick.

I think that's where we differ _ we probably agree that bullies have "problems of their own", but while I accept that, I think that the very worst thing you can do is pity them. The very best you can do for them is to make sure they get kick after kick till they either (a) get the message (we can all rejoice with the returned sinner in that case), or (b) clear off, or (c) kill themselves. And if they're enough of a bully, I'm not that fussed which they choose.

In Draco's case, I see a tiny pin-prick of hope in the fact that he's so obsessed with trying to out-do Harry, despite the fact that Harry is not in the slightest bit afraid of him (and therefore offers no enjoyment for a bully). It's just that it reminds me of Sirius's notion that "James was everything Snape wanted to be". Mind you, I always felt Sirius was a bit off-beam there _ I wonder if his words would have better applied to Wormtail. But I've a feeling it may just fit the Draco V. Harry situation. But there's no hard evidence, of course.



Weeny Owl - Jul7, 2005 3:38 pm (#1088 of 1825)
Interesting points, Vulture, but all I was saying is that when Draco was thirteen years old chances are he wasn't really thinking of killing Harry.

The older he gets and the more the war progresses is another matter entirely.

Now that his father is in Azkaban, and since he blames Harry for it, I wouldn't put anything past him.

I see absolutely NO redemption in Draco. He's too self-absorbed, too spoiled, too full of himself, too full of his family's position in Wizarding society, too full of having people kowtow to him to be able to change for the better, at least in my opinion.

I do believe he'll change, though, but I think he'll sink to new depths of nastiness that bloom into true evil. I just don't think that at thirteen he was there yet.



Vulture - Jul8, 2005 10:29 am (#1089 of 1825)
Well, one other thing that occurs to me as well is how much Draco refers to his father: in Book 1, his very first insult to Ron (which prompts Harry to reject his handshake) starts as " my father says the Weasleys ..." etc.

In Book 2, of course, the whole shennanigans is Lucius's doing.

In Book 4, at the World Cup, Draco's chatter on the DEs is all to do with his father, and later, he's all on about his father and Durmstrang.

No doubt there are other examples _ my point is: with his bad nature heavily based on what his father says/does, I see a tiny bit of hope if his father betrays him for some reason.



Weeny Owl - Jul8, 2005 11:06 am (#1090 of 1825)
THere's always hope until the end, but even though I think Snape is now on the side of good, at one time he did become a full-fledged Death Eater, and Sirius said he hung out with a group of Slytherins who nearly all became Death Eaters.

It sounds as if Draco is following the same path, and while Snape may have redeemed himself, the others in his group didn't. I see Draco following the footsteps of his father and his darling Auntie Bella.

I think other Slytherins will be on the good side, but JKR does have to keep her villains, and we know there are at least four students who have Death Eater fathers, and there needs to be a new generation of bad guys or it wouldn't seem realistic to me. I think Draco is going to end up dead or in Azkaban.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul8, 2005 11:37 am (#1091 of 1825)
Weeny since Draco is an only child and his family are very proud of their heritage I think Draco will be well protected. I am certain Lucius and Narcissa do not want to see their family die out. If he winds up dead or in Azkaban. it will be because in his arrogance he will try to do something he does not have the power, brains, or nerve to do. Draco has family that pampers and cares for him. Snape never had that. Snape needed to create his own family.

I agree, at this point, I see no redemption in Draco. He will follow where his father leads. He is a useful person for Voldemort and the Death Eaters to get close to Harry. He has access to Hogwarts they do not. LPO



Weeny Owl - Jul8, 2005 12:38 pm (#1092 of 1825)
But how well could Lucius and Narcissa protect him? Part of his problem IS that he's pampered, and along with that comes his arrogance. He just doesn't see much beyond his own desires.

We know Lucius is a Death Eater, so his fate is probably a given... he'll die or after everything is over, he'll spend the rest of his life in Azkaban. With Narcissa we don't know. If she follows the path of her husband and sister, she'll end up dead or in Azkaban. I just don't see them being able to do much to protect Draco unless one of them (probably Narcissa) chooses to work for the good guys.



Solitaire - Jul8, 2005 12:57 pm (#1093 of 1825)
He is used to DEs like Goyle, Crabb, Nott ... I wonder, though, whether he has had the pleasure of meeting Bella, her husband and brother, and Dolohov. What do you think? Would Lucius and Narcissa have kept him away from the more brutal, hardcore DEs? I really hope we get to see Draco in company with Voldemort. That will be most telling ...

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Jul8, 2005 2:25 pm (#1094 of 1825)
Some of them wouldn't have seen Draco yet unless the Malfoys visited Azkaban to see Bella and took him with them.

As for the others, that's an interesting point, Solitaire. Would they keep their true natures in check with children or would they just discuss anything and everything they'd done as Death Eaters?

I'm with you, Solitaire... I would just LOVE to see Draco interacting with Voldemort.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul8, 2005 3:05 pm (#1095 of 1825)
We know Lucius tells Draco a lot of things. I think as a part of Draco's "education" they will turn him into one of them. Though I don't think they will put him in a dangerous situation yet. A scene with Draco and Voldemort would be very interesting. LPO



Solitaire - Jul8, 2005 4:43 pm (#1096 of 1825)
Can't you just picture Draco's first look at Voldemort's snake-face? hehehe



Vulture - Jul10, 2005 6:22 am (#1097 of 1825)
Draco has family that pampers and cares for him. Snape never had that. Snape needed to create his own family. (Ludicrous Patents Office [/b]- Jul8, 2005 11:37 am (#1091))

(1) Pampers him ? _ certainly. Cares for him ? _ I think that's more debatable, as I've said before: if they truly cared for him they wouldn't spoil him so much, and would try to develop his moral character (of course, first they'd have to develop their own, so that's pretty much a non-starter !!).

(2) As for Snape, if I've missed something in the books, tell me, but I don't think we've any info at all about Snape's family other than that scene of his father shouting at his crying mother. OK, it doesn't say a lot for his father, but we can't really say how his mother treated him. (In fact, strictly speaking, it only tells us how his dad treated his mum, not him. ) Draco's set-up might seem a bit better, but neither set-up is ideal.

Any more about Snape and I'll get howled at for being irrelevant to the thread, but in general, almost anything we say about Snape can be contradicted at once, and each side is possible _ he's such an enigmatic and many-sided character and we know so little. We can't even be 100% sure that Dumbledore is right to trust him, though he (Dumbledore) seems pretty sure, and I personally feel the same.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul11, 2005 9:19 am (#1098 of 1825)
Vulture I think Draco's parents do care for him. Narcissa did not want him to go to Durmstrang because it was so far away. She sends him mail frequently. Lucius obviously talks to Draco a lot. You are right, they should try to develop his moral character. I think they are molding his character to be like any good Slytherin Pure Blood.

I do believe the hints Jo gave us in OoP about Snape indicate he had a less than ideal childhood. LPO



MickeyCee3948 - Jul11, 2005 4:47 pm (#1099 of 1825)
It is very difficult to develop good moral character in your children when you set a bad example. Lucius is a DE and Draco will probably at least attempt to become one also. Remember the old saying about fruit not falling far from the tree. We don't know enough about Narcissa to determine an opinion about her character but her choice of husbands and family background does not speak well for her being a morally good individual.

Mickey



zelmia - Jul11, 2005 8:00 pm (#1100 of 1825)
Draco idolizes his father and does everything possible to emulate him. From my own experience, I would say that most parents - especially fathers - would be thrilled to have a child like this.
Remember, just because we don't agree with the kind of morality or ideology to which the Malfoys and others subscribe doesn't mean they are without morals.
If you remove the concept of "Death Eater" from the equation, can you truly criticize the Malfoys as parents? Draco, even well into his adolescence, is clearly very close to them. Instead of exhibiting "teenage rebellion" as do Harry, Ginny and others, Draco clings even more tightly to the dogma he has been raised upon. Again, I think most parents would be thrilled to know that their child(ren) are growing up to follow the path the parents hoped for.

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Ponine - Jul 12, 2005 1:54 am (#1101 of 1825)
Vulture, I must admit that I think you are quite in the wrong to question whether the Malfoys love or care for their son simply because they do not raise him in a manner we would consider good/optimal/right. In my job I have seen children raised in all sort of dysfunctional, negative, spacy, weird, odd, eccentric ways, but that does NOT mean the parents do not love their children. They do the best they can with what they've got, whether it pertains to money, morals, intellect, whatever. Now, have I also seen parents who truly does not give a rodent's bottom about their offspring? To some extent, yes. But I would venture to say that in these cases, the dysfunction and pathology is so severe that they could never, and would never bother to, maintain the level of involvement the Malfoys do with Draco. I would also draw a paralell to Dudley in this case. I have no doubt in my mind that the Dursleys love, worship, adore and care about their son, unfortunately that has nothing to do with the manner in which they raise their only son... If you ever ask Vernon and Petunia, they could both agree wholeheartedly in that they raised their son in a loving and caring environment, where he never wanted for anything, they supported his interests, were involved with his sports and friends, and took a keen interest in his education, wanting only the best for their boy....

Am I saying the Malfoys and Dursleys are right in raising brats for boys? No, absolutely not. However, I hope I have emphasized that loving and caring about your child cannot be gaged by the value system you choose to impose on him or her.

... ** thinking of surgically attaching soapbox to shoes, as all the climbing up and down is getting irksome...*



Ponine - Jul 12, 2005 6:08 pm (#1102 of 1825)
Hello?? I just wanted to say that I did not mean to sound so snippy in my previous post, I just get overly excited sometimes.. sorry..



Milton K Lau - Jul 17, 2005 5:21 am (#1103 of 1825)
Harry does need a Nemisis, and Draco fits the bill. He is both a peer and a proper misguided advesary. I don't think that any real harm will come to Mr. Potters' Future Arch Enemy. Because Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) is mainly the bad guy that just happened to have the spotlight for the time being. Without Mr. Riddle, there would not be a truely E'vile element for the books. Draco isn't e'vile,... yet,... he's just bad & naughty,...although he is quite good at being - bad.

For proper balance, of good and evil, there must be some characters to provide representation. For those still innocent, and not so jaded (like us old fogies) these good "and" bad characters are excellent examples to teach anyone with an open mind what and how it is to be and not to be, which is often the question for those still so innocent. Lets just hope that as they grow and mature, they will make the right choices, for goodness sake. There is too much evil in our world, as it is. I hope the next generaton can do some good, endeavour to be and do good, where some of us who have come before - have failed or could not pass muster.



Vulture - Jul 28, 2005 5:43 am (#1104 of 1825)
Remember, just because we don't agree with the kind of morality or ideology to which the Malfoys and others subscribe doesn't mean they are without morals. If you remove the concept of "Death Eater" from the equation, can you truly criticize the Malfoys as parents? zelmia [/b]- Jul 11, 2005 8:00 pm (#1100)

Yes, I can. As I see it, the point is that we can't 'remove the concept of "Death Eater" from the equation' _ it's part of what Lucius is. What you choose as a person defines you as a person, and what defines you as a person defines you as a parent. But yes _ I recognise that many parents live as if this was not so.

On the question of "... just because we don't agree with the kind of morality or ideology to which the Malfoys and others subscribe ..." _ no, no, no. I'm afraid I don't agree. I believe that there is an absolute standard of right and wrong which all of us _ at bottom, whatever our failings or hard knocks _ know and ought to live by. Now, it's true that we all disagree about this absolute standard's terms _ and even where it comes from (God or not). But we all know that it's there. The Malfoys have made choices which have led them to where they are.

Thanks for this and all other replies to my earlier post. Apart from what I've just said, I don't feel that there's any more I can say that wouldn't be (possibly) influenced by my reading of Book 6. What I said above is only based on Books 1 to 5.



Solitaire - Jul 30, 2005 7:47 pm (#1105 of 1825)
Well, we all wanted to know more about Draco. I guess we got our wish!



Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 11:41 pm (#1106 of 1825)
Ponine, I am inclined to agree with the views you have set forth. I have had experience with families such as the Malfoy's and while do not approve of or condone in any way shape or form their activities or the system of values. There is no doubt in my mind that they loved their children and would have given their lives to save them. This is especially, true in the case of Narcissa. Any mother whio would send her son packages daily and that fought to keep him close to home at Hogwarts instead of at Drumstang must be possessed of a deep love and affection for her son. Lucius I think that he may be more distant and more of disciplinarian but, after a fashion believe he may love Draco.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2005 6:06 pm (#1107 of 1825)
Now that Draco has evolved from a Death Nibbler to a full fledged Death Eater how will his absence affect Milllicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Crabbe and Goyle. Also, what effect will his absence have on Slytherin House in general.



MickeyCee3948 - Aug 1, 2005 6:21 pm (#1108 of 1825)
Do we really know he's a death eater? Yes, he worked with the death eater's and it led to the death of Dumbledore but Draco didn't/couldn't do the deed. If Voldemort was truly that mad at Lucius that he wanted Draco to fail so that he could kill him as revenge aganist Lucius then why should we believe that he still won't be mad because Draco didn't have what it took to do the dirty deed. He could still kill Draco! He doen't exactly have alot of patience for people who still have a conscience.

Mickey



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2005 6:36 pm (#1109 of 1825)
Mickey, perhaps Draco's conscience affects the level of his involvement but, the presence of the Dark Mark on his arm binds him to Voldemort. As Sirius said in OotP one does not just hand in their resignation to Voldemort its a lifetime of service or death. Assuming that Dumbledore is dead Draco has a huge problem. If he renounces his alliegance to Voldemort he will have to fly farther than Karakoff to remain safe because, without Dumbledore there is no one capable of protecting him at Hogwarts.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 1, 2005 7:02 pm (#1110 of 1825)
Hopefully Draco being gone will be a good thing for Slytherin.. Maybe with Slughorn there can be some uniting of the houses. Though I doubt Crabbe and Goyle will be for it. They may be gone next year also. LPO



Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2005 8:16 pm (#1111 of 1825)
We never saw the Dark Mark on Draco's arm, but the evidence seems nearly overwhelming that he is indeed a Death Eater.

From his reaction in Madam Malkin's to his comments on the train to his comments to Snape after they had left Slughorn's party to him being able to move through the barrier to his final comments to Dumbledore it certainly suggests he is one.

Anything Draco said and did in HBP could be seen a variety of ways if each is taken separately. Together, however, they paint a picture of guilt.

That doesn't mean he likes being a Death Eater. That doesn't mean he won't switch sides somewhere along the way, although I don't think he will. He still called Hermione a Mudblood even while he was threatening Dumbledore, so his belief system is still the same.

He finally found out that getting what he wanted wasn't all it was cracked up to be. He wanted Voldemort in power, and he seemed to find it amusing that Cedric Diggory had been killed. When faced with tasks he himself had to perform, however, he couldn't quite hack it.



Hexenhammer - Aug 2, 2005 4:01 pm (#1112 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 2, 2005 4:04 pm
I see a bit of irony in the situation Draco has gotten himself into. He wanted Voldemort in Voldemort’s circle and look what it has got him. Draco doesn’t have freedom anymore and he knows true fear. A bit of poetic justice considering everything he’s done in the past. I do wonder if he realizes what he’s given up.

-Hexenhammer



timrew - Aug 3, 2005 2:32 pm (#1113 of 1825)
So the Death Nibbler has become a Death Eater; but in having the Dark Mark on his arm only (or so we suspect!).

Draco, I think, has found out that it's all very well supporting the Death Eaters and hurrahing their killings (like Cedric Diggory). But when it falls upon him to send DD 'through the veil', we find that Draco is still a 'Nibbler' at heart.

I think there may be hope for him yet.........



Madam Pince - Aug 3, 2005 3:51 pm (#1114 of 1825)
Me, too, timrew. I have long thought that Draco will "turn away from the Dark Side" and help Harry somehow in the final battle -- thus uniting the Houses. My guess is that Voldemort might do something rather nasty to either Lucius or Narcissa, and Draco will see the error of his ways.



Vulture - Aug 5, 2005 10:15 am (#1115 of 1825)
Hopefully Draco being gone will be a good thing for Slytherin.. Maybe with Slughorn there can be some uniting of the houses. (Ludicrous Patents Office [/b]- Aug 1, 2005 7:02 pm (#1110))

Erm... I wouldn't get your hopes up yet, I'm afraid !!

You see, all the books so far have had certain 'constants' in their structure. One of these is Snape's presence as a teacher making Harry's life hell as far as possible. Another has been Draco's enmity to Harry, again within the school structure.

If JKR wants to continue the structure, here's how it might happen: (By the way, I read through HBP very fast, so what I say is certainly subject to correction.) As far as I remember, Harry was, broadly speaking, on his own when chasing Snape & Co. out the school gate. Yes, Hagrid turned up on the way, but we know from his later words that he hardly noticed Snape's presence. (I recall him saying something about oh-Snape-must-have-gone-with-them-to-keep-his-spy-cover, but didn't Harry have to first point out that Snape was there at all ?)

You see, I fear that Snape might actually have the nerve to return and brazen it out _ his word against Harry's. Yes, McGonagall & Co. would know he was lying _ but proof ? And Draco could come back on his heels.

I'm out of time !!



Vulture - Aug 5, 2005 11:46 am (#1116 of 1825)
I'm back in, for a few minutes.

Damn _ I'm a complete idiot; I just realised. Of course the above wouldn't work _ Harry's account would be corroborated by the portrait of Dumbledore. (At least we hope it would _ frankly, Dumbledore has been acting fairly obtusely lately !!)

But my broader idea _ about having Snape back as a teacher, and Draco back as a student, in 7th Year _ may nevertheless come about. I think that having Harry as the only living witness to Snape's guilt wasn't set up by accident. Options are being left open. Certainly, it would take a lot of pushing and shoving by the writer, but frankly, after what I've seen in HPB, nothing would surprise me.

In fact, Draco _ as opposed to Snape _ can probably just walk back in anyway. All he's really guilty of (apart from words) is that crucial "Expelliarmus" on the Astronomy Tower, and he didn't even realise that Snape was going to appear (he thought Snape was asleep). He has the best possible defence in any court _ the testimony of an enemy (Harry). Harry would testify that Draco lowered his wand, that Dumbledore's words had made him waver, and that his main motive for attempted murder was fear that Voldemort would kill him if he didn't do it. After that account, he would be seen, at worst, as an under-age wizard gone wrong under powerful persuasion (not to say intimidation) by evil adults.

P.S. As for Slughorn helping to unite the Houses (Ludicrous Patents Office [/b]- Aug 1, 2005 7:02 pm (#1110)), he may mean well, but don't forget that under his previous Headship of Slytherin, Snape and several other Death Eaters flourished (see Sirius's account in Book 4).



J Hood - Aug 5, 2005 12:38 pm (#1117 of 1825)
Vulture you forgot a few things that he did. 1)The small part of him using the Imperious Curse of Madam Rosemerta

2)Hospitalized Katie Bell with the necklace

3)Poisoned Ron with the wine

4)Broke in a number of death eaters who then terrorized and harmed people with in the school.

5)Then casted the spell that disarmed DD.

As far as I know not being a lawyer myself, but knowing quite a few collaboration in a crime that causes the death of someone else no matter if you were the one doing the killing or not is a first degree murder.

Now I understand that his folks would have been killed if he didn't succeed and he might have took the job under duress (we really dont know how he got the job), but he still had the choice to do the easy thing or to do the right thing and he chose the easy way out. I have no real sympathy for him even though he didn't do the killing himself. The only way to change my feelings towards him would be to prove his remorse in some heroic action in the next book.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 5, 2005 12:54 pm (#1118 of 1825)
Vulture,

Have you taken into account the fact that, for the first time in his career, Snape had become DADA teacher? We know that this post was jinxed by Voldemort, and nobody can stay for more than one year... Besides, it was only because of Dumbledore that Snape could stay at Hogwarts - do you think that McGonagall or anybody else would accept him back? Even the Ministry wouldn't, Fudge knows that he was a Death Eater.

In all likelihood, the whole wizarding community will believe that Dumbledore was too kind, and misplaced his trust.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 5, 2005 1:02 pm (#1119 of 1825)
Vulture, interesting idea. Part of the traditional structure of the book has already been changed. We did not see Harry get on Hogwarts and meet the Dursleys at the end of HBP. I agree with Sparrowhawk I don't think McGonagall will allow Snape back. Lucius Malfoy is in prison and no longer on the board so I don't see anyone else helping Snape to get back in. I believe Draco is 17. I don't think he will be returning either. He is on to other things. LPO



Verbina - Aug 5, 2005 1:37 pm (#1120 of 1825)
Draco had not yet turned 17 when everything happened. He had to wait for the next Apparition test.

Interesting kid really. The thing that had me totally puzzled and confused was his takling to Moaning Mrytle. He obviously wanted something from her...why else would he tell her that he is being bullied in school? But what would have gained from her? He already knew about the Room of Requirement. So what could he have learned from Mrytle?



Sparrowhawk - Aug 5, 2005 2:45 pm (#1121 of 1825)
He only told Moaning Myrtle that he was being bullied in general, not in school... It is the DE and their followers who are bullying him, and he's depressed and terrified. Maybe for the first time in six years, we are having a glimpse at another side of Draco's personality - and it looks as if he's sincere.



Weeny Owl - Aug 5, 2005 3:46 pm (#1122 of 1825)
I don't see how Snape or Draco could come back. Hermione mentioned an article in the Daily Prophet that said Snape hadn't been found yet, so it would appear that he is officially on the run from the Ministry.

Even if no one could prove that Draco was behind the Katie Bell incident, Ron being poisoned, and everything else he did, he still left with Snape, and if Snape is on the run, Draco would be as well.

Harry may be the only witness to much of it, but there were witnesses to Draco having the Hand of Glory, going up into the Astronomy Tower, coming back down and running.

Even if Snape and Draco could plead innocence in how Dumbledore was killed, they were both up in the tower with known Death Eaters, and they left with known Death Eaters instead of staying and fighting for the school.

Even if it's all circumstantial, there are enough witnesses without Harry involved to put a definite negativity on their behavior.



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 5, 2005 3:48 pm (#1123 of 1825)
Myrtle is Voldemort's first murder victim, as far as we know. If Draco had an ulterior motive perhaps it lies somewhere in that direction. I wonder what she would think about her "boyfriend" aiding Voldemort's invasion of the castle and helping to kill the headmaster. If Myrtle even cares, or realizes that she was murdered by Voldemort. She's an odd one.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 5, 2005 7:23 pm (#1124 of 1825)
I think Draco needed a place to break down without his friends. Myrtle probably found him and sympathized with him. I find it interesting she thinks of him as sensitive. That is defiantly a new side to Draco. I agree Mrs. Brisbee, who knows if Myrtle even knows or cares who Voldemort is and if the Headmaster is dead. LPO



Susurro Notities - Aug 5, 2005 7:45 pm (#1125 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 5, 2005 7:46 pm
Nicely put Weeny Owl. I would add that when Snape exited the tower he shouted "It's over, time to go!" (HBP p. 598 US hardcover)This would collaborate Harry's statement that Snape had killed Dumbledore.



Weeny Owl - Aug 5, 2005 10:45 pm (#1126 of 1825)
Draco's interactions with Moaning Myrtle show how far he's gone from the strutting and arrogant little snot on the train who was bragging about service to Voldemort.

He started to feel the stress before Christmas, and it seems that he finally realized exactly what service to Voldemort might entail. Him talking to Moaning Myrtle showed that he is finally getting the hard, bare, cruel reality as opposed to the "hero worship" he's felt in years past.

Draco was a great way of showing just how little Voldemort cares for his supporters, and if his parents weren't being threatened, he would probably have opted out regardless of what happened to Snape with the Unbreakable Vow.

Draco has finally been thrust into the real world with all of its problems and he just has no way to cope.



Wisey - Aug 6, 2005 4:33 pm (#1127 of 1825)
Draco was in a no win situation. He planned to kill Dumdlefore because of the threats placed on his family by LV. Snape did the deed and we are yet to see how Draco is punished, LV doesn't tolerate failure very well!

Draco had lowered his wand on the tower, he had already made his choice. Now, with the punishment Draco is about to receive I think Harry will have all the Malfoys turn on the LV in the final scene of Bk7.



Steve Newton - Aug 7, 2005 8:14 am (#1128 of 1825)
Since Dumbledore appears to be dead I don't think that Draco can be said to have failed. His plan set up the situation. If the words gets out I'm sure that our team would be glad to take him to task for it.



Nims - Aug 7, 2005 5:55 pm (#1129 of 1825)
I am trying to convince family and friends (no luck, alas), that Malfoy is Snape's son. Any takers? Narcissa seemed to confide so completely in Snape, the vow they took was intimate, almost marriage-like... They would have been the right age to parent Draco; Draco takes after his mother in looks, not Lucius; Snape has always preferred and counseled Draco over all others. Also, on JKR's "Rumours" page, answerering the rumour "Luna is Snape's daughter," Rowling answers: "This is a most tantalizing idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the editor of 'The Quibbler,' really is Luna's father and Snape does not have a DAUGHTER." Why would she finish her answer with that last clause? She already said Mr. Lovegood is Luna's dad... Anyone?



I Am Used Vlad - Aug 7, 2005 7:55 pm (#1130 of 1825)
Nims, the first time Harry sees Lucius, he notices that he has "the same pale, pointed face and identical cold, gray eyes" that Draco has. CoS p. 50 US He is clearly Draco's father.



Weeny Owl - Aug 7, 2005 8:09 pm (#1131 of 1825)
Snape could be Draco's godfather. He could be Draco's uncle. He could be Draco's cousin. He could just be fond of Draco because he's been friends with Lucius for so long.

I don't see Draco being Snape's son. Aside from the physical descriptions of Lucius and Draco matching, since Draco's parents are married, I doubt if JKR is going to delve into anything outside of marriage for her characters.



constant vigilance - Aug 7, 2005 10:41 pm (#1132 of 1825)
Was anyone else hoping that when Harry walked in on Draco that they would mend the bridge? I was so disappointed that it ended with Harry performing a horrific hex. But seriously, I thought Draco had a chance given that he was crying to Myrtle about his problems. For the first time, Draco might have been able to empathize with things Harry has dealt with his whole life.

Alas, Draco choose Pride and Prejudice and Harry responded foolishly.

I do not think the prospect of Draco living is very good. If he does, his existence will be that of a guinea pig forever probed by the looming possibility of his & his parents' deaths.



Ms Amanda - Aug 8, 2005 6:06 pm (#1133 of 1825)
I wasn't hoping for much from Draco in the scene where Harry walks in on him. After all, if it wasn't an act to get some information out of Myrtle, then he was crying because he could not get his plan to kill someone to work fast enough. That didn't predispose me to think well of Draco.

Also, the attempted curse and poisoning, which injured Katie Bell and Ron, are from-a-distance, frightened-of-death ways of murder. I knew that if it were Draco behind the attacks that he was not ready to face death.

However, I was as horrified as Harry when the hex caused such immediate and severe damage. Myrtle won't be so found of Harry now, will she?



Vulture - Aug 10, 2005 7:27 am (#1134 of 1825)
Hi, Folks: Thanks for all the replies _ I was going to re-read the book anyway (in fact, I hope you'll see a separate thread as a result), but ye have raised many more reasons to do so !!

Vulture you forgot a few things that he did .... ... I have no real sympathy for him even though he didn't do the killing himself. (J Hood [/b]- Aug 5, 2005 12:38 pm (#1117))

_ Well, J Hood, I didn't actually forget those things you mention, but I thought that there was little or no proof tying him to them that would satisfy a court. "Beyond reasonable doubt" _ isn't that the phrase ? (Admittedly, Ministry wizards' idea of court justice is a little ... shall we say "flexibly creative" ?!!) As I recall, Harry tried to get the school higher-ups to check out Malfoy over some or all of those incidents you mention, and fell flat.

On the main "Murder One" charge, all he definitely did was the Expelliarmus, and then it became clear that, as Dumbledore said, he was "not a killer". Harry can corroborate.

But in case you've got the wrong idea, I've no sympathy for Draco either. It's just that Harry's testimony would be a good card for him if he chose to use it (mind you, he doesn't know of it).

Vulture, Have you taken into account the fact that, for the first time in his career, Snape had become DADA teacher? (Sparrowhawk [/b]- Aug 5, 2005 12:54 pm (#1118))

Sparrowhawk _ I certainly have. I think it's possible that Snape had a conflict of loyalties through the first 5 books, and that being put in the DADA post tipped him over. To answer your whole post, yes _ I now agree that Snape's return is unlikely.

why else would he tell her that he is being bullied ? (Verbina [/b]- Aug 5, 2005 1:37 pm (#1120)) Did he say that, Verbina ? _ I totally missed that one.



Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2005 8:03 am (#1135 of 1825)
Vulture, evidence that would work in a court is not quite the standard that we are using. First of all neither most of us, nor the author, know what would satisfy a court. Secondly, this is literature, itself a noble tradition, that has its own rules of evidence.



Solitaire - Aug 11, 2005 10:01 am (#1136 of 1825)
I agree with those who feel that Malfoy could have been pretending in order to gain Myrtle's sympathy and get info from her. What information could he want from Myrtle? Hm ... could he possibly have been interested in finding the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets? I can't believe we have seen the last of that place. It seems far too elaborate a construction to have existed for the sole purpose of housing the Basilisk. Besides, that was only one secret.

It seems to me that the Chamber may have existed for other nefarious reasons--practicing the Dark Arts, perhaps? From the description in CoS, it seems to have been a huge area. I think it might have been a great place to hide the Vanishing Cabinet. What better place to conceal a group of DEs within the school? It might also have given them considerable access beneath the school. Malfoy knew that Harry was aware of the RoR, since he and the DA had used it the previous year. Yet, he probably would not have known about the Marauders' Map; therefore, the fact that he was invisible on it when in the RoR would not likely have been a motive for using that room. The CoS would have been a less likely place for Harry to try and find him, perhaps. I can see him trying to wheedle the info out of Myrtle.

As far as Malfoy returning to Hogwarts, he was already shooting off his mouth on the train, to his Slytherin buddies, about possibly not returning next year and about being in service to the Dark Lord. When Blaise Zabini pointed out that he was only 16 and not fuly qualified to do anything for Voldemort, Draco responded: "Maybe he doesn't care if I'm qualified. Maybe the job he wants me to do isn't something that you need to be qualified for."

I don't like to convict without evidence, but his statements on the train, coupled with what seems to be a Dark Mark on his arm do make it sound like he is in Voldemort's service. Interestingly, his comments on the train about his mother wanting him to complete his education--together with her binding Snape with the Vow--make it seem like she is less than enthusiastic about his entering into Voldie's service ... just yet, anyway. I wonder if she would have given it up altogether and changed sides--given the chance Dumbledore offered--if she and Snape had not already been bound by the Vow. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Vulture - Aug 11, 2005 11:48 am (#1137 of 1825)
Vulture, evidence that would work in a court is not quite the standard that we are using. First of all neither most of us, nor the author, know what would satisfy a court. Secondly, this is literature, itself a noble tradition, that has its own rules of evidence. (Steve Newton [/b]- Aug 10, 2005 8:03 am (#1135))

In #1134, I was replying to an earlier post about whether Malfoy would face charges (in the wizarding world, obviously) if he turned up at the school in Book 7. All we have to go on about Ministry Of Magic justice is from the books, mainly the trials in Book 4. For anything not covered there, I feel justified in trying to work out what MOM law might have in common with our own. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is a term well enough known, I feel, to anyone who's ever watched TV or a movie about law courts.

However, I did make clear that the MOM's notion of justice is different to ours.

The key point of what I said is that (in my opinion _ you don't have to agree) those who say that Draco Malfoy is bound to be convicted of Dumbledore's murder, if he reappears, are wrong. The chief reason that they're wrong is that Harry, much as he may dislike being so, is a witness whose testimony would largely help Malfoy.



constant vigilance - Aug 11, 2005 4:32 pm (#1138 of 1825)
Interestingly, his comments on the train about his mother wanting him to complete his education--together with her binding Snape with the Vow--make it seem like she is less than enthusiastic about his entering into Voldie's service ... just yet, anyway. I wonder if she would have given it up altogether and changed sides--given the chance Dumbledore offered--if she and Snape had not already been bound by the Vow. JM2K, of course ... --Solitaire

I think this is what separates Narcissa from every other Death Eater we have encountered. Like the others she is afraid of Voldemort, but she does not seem nearly as enthusiastic about striving towards the title of most loyal servant. She almost spoke ill of her master at Spinner's End, and she certainly did not appreciate Voldemort's way of showing his anger towards Lucius. While Bella tells Cissy she should be proud that Draco was chosen to complete the task, and Snape reprimands her for going behind the Dark Lord's back, Narcissa says she "there is nothing [she] wouldn't do anymore," (HBP US edition 21) presumably to protect her son.

While Draco sprints towards his childhood goal of being in Lord Voldemort's service, and admonishes Snape for trying to steal Draco's glory, Narcissa seems to waver between her loyalty to the Dark Lord, and the love she feels for her family.



Verbina - Aug 11, 2005 7:14 pm (#1139 of 1825)
Vulture - Mrytle tells Harry that there is a boy coming to see her and that he has told her he is being bullied. (Or something to that effect.)

We have seen Draco play up the being bullied/hurt issue a few times. When he is hurt in the Quidditch match in CoS between Slyterhin and Gryffindor, he plays up for sympathy and attention. When he is hurt by Buckbeak in PoA, he again plays up his injury for attention and to help get Hagrid fired. So when I read that about Draco telling Mrytle he is bullied, it struck me that once again he was hitting up for sympathy.

True, he may have gone to her seeking comfort but... but Mrytle doesn't strike me as being the most tight lipped about things she hears or sees. After all, she did tell Harry about Draco without naming him. She has also blurted out things to Harry in GoF about the egg and in CoS about Hermione's problem with the cat hairs in the polyjuice potion.

So whyon earth would Draco, snob that he is, go to a ghost with his problems? I think he first went to her to try to gather information...of what...who knows. Perhaps the location of an item?



Solitaire - Aug 11, 2005 9:00 pm (#1140 of 1825)
Draco may have tried to kill Dumbledore, but the fact is he did not. Harry saw Snape do the deed. As much as Harry hates Draco, I do not believe he would give false testimony against him. He might give every damning detail against Draco that he observed and every previous guilty action of which he was aware... but in the end, he would not say that Draco killed Dumbledore. As "Dumbledore's man through and through," Harry has too much value for truth and honor. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 12, 2005 3:29 am (#1141 of 1825)
But Draco is still guilty, even if it's aiding and abetting. If it weren't for him, no Death Eaters would have made it into the castle that night. Draco also managed to seriously disable Katie Bell and to poison Ron, even if he didn't do it directly.

I'm not saying a court would convict him, but he is, at least indirectly, guilty of Dumbledore's death and plenty of other things.



Herm oh ninny - Aug 12, 2005 6:55 am (#1142 of 1825)
Weeny, I think the most most important thing is that Dunmbledore wouldn't judge him as guilty.



Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2005 9:12 am (#1143 of 1825)
I'm not sure what to think of Draco and Myrtle. When I'm feeling generous, I picture him maybe crying in the Prefect's Bathroom, and Myrtle coming in and spying on him, then offering comfort. If he truly is beginning to come around and actually have some regrets about his involvement with the "wrong" side in the past, perhaps he truly is sad and remorseful and getting some solace in confiding in Myrtle. But you're right, Verbina, this would be contrary to all the evidence about Draco that we've seen in the past.

I tend to lean towards giving him the benefit of the doubt -- if Dumbledore could, then I'll try to also. I have thought for some time that Draco will eventually help Harry against Voldemort in Book 7, and his beginnings at a change-around would be properly timed by taking place in HBP.

As for Narcissa, I don't think she was wavering in her loyalty to the Dark Lord -- seems to me that she was flat out defying him. She's scared of him, but she's definitely disregarding his instructions. I'm not totally convinced she's a DE. For some reason I see her as more of a stereotypical "Army wife" type of character -- certainly there to support her husband, but not really participating in the battles. But she may be a DE, too, I'm just not convinced.



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2005 10:02 am (#1144 of 1825)
Weeny, I agree that, in our courts, Draco would probably be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder (if there is such a charge). By creating a portal into Hogwarts, he is also responsible--whether he intended Greyback to be there or not--for what happened to Bill Weasley. Given the nature of Greyback, he is lucky no one else was bitten. And the number of DEs who actually penetrated Hogwarts would seem to indicate that more deaths than just Dumbledore may have been intended.

Don't get me wrong ... I think a life-term at Azkaban is perfectly fine for Draco!

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 12, 2005 10:36 am (#1145 of 1825)
Herm oh ninny, I'm not so sure Dumbledore wouldn't find him guilty for some of the things he did. While Dumbledore is all for second chances, he's also part of a system where punishments are necessary such as deducting points and detentions at Hogwarts and prison sentences at Azkaban.

In Draco's favor, he had no idea Greyback would be part of it, and he didn't seem at all pleased to be associated with him. Again, it's one thing to threaten someone with a werewolf but quite another to have said werewolf in person. For that alone, he deserves a prison sentence in Azkaban, and I could agree with Solitaire on a life sentence.

I have no doubt that Draco's crying to Moaning Myrtle was sincere, and it was also in character for him because it was all about him. How would this affect him if he failed? How would this affect his parents if he failed? He never said, at least to my knowledge, that he regretted ever becoming involved in it, but only that his failure might cause his and his parents' deaths.



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2005 10:44 am (#1146 of 1825)
His whining may well have been sincere, Weeny. Alas, if he'd told Myrtle the true SOURCE of his whining and being upset--stress and fear of Voldemort because he'd not yet achieved the murder of Dumbledore--she might not have been so sympathetic. What do you think?

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 12, 2005 10:47 am (#1147 of 1825)
I just had a thought regarding Draco's tears. If they were crocodile tears, could he be hoping to get info. on the Chamber of Secrets from Myrtle? Why else would he "open up" to her?

Solitaire, she seems to despise fighting.



Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2005 10:48 am (#1148 of 1825)
I thought that he sounded sincere. The regret and fear of knowing that you have been asked to do more than you are able. And the failing grade is not a T.



haymoni - Aug 12, 2005 10:57 am (#1149 of 1825)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 11:50 am
So what drew Draco to that bathroom??

I keep picturing Myrtle as Wendy in Peter Pan.

"Boy, why are you crying?"



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2005 10:57 am (#1150 of 1825)
HH, that is what I said several posts back. I think finding the CoS may have been a goal. However, he could have been quite sincere in his tears and fears, because--as Weeny has said--it was all about him. As to concerns for his parents ... was that an issue? I thought Narcissa's concern was for Draco alone--that he would die if he failed.

Solitaire

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Wizadora - Aug 12, 2005 11:46 am (#1151 of 1825)
I agree that Draco's tears could have been fake. But I think that JKR was trying to tell us something about him that we had not seen before. As is the case with a lot of bullies, they are hidding behind a tough exterior and when it really comes down to it, have been bullied themselves by others. I see Draco as a product of his upbringing. That is not to say that he isn't a horrible person sometimes. But his fears are real. Shooting your mouth off to people your own age and being given a task by Lord Voldermort himself (bear in mind LV had to give him the dark mark personally) is a completely different thing.

I think he chose Myrtle because she was there at the right time and that she was as far removed from any circle of people he actually knew and wouldn't be able to let his guard down around.



Wizadora - Aug 12, 2005 11:49 am (#1152 of 1825)
I guess what I mean to say also, that JKR was showing us that Draco can feel for others. He is scared for his family. And shows fear when DD wonders why he would bring greyback into the school where his friends are. He must feel something for his friends then. I am not saying that he will become a softie - but I think that we all needed to see that even Draco is not as black and white as we thought he was.



Weeny Owl - Aug 12, 2005 2:21 pm (#1153 of 1825)
I don't see why Draco would need to know about the Chamber of Secrets unless Voldemort can tutor him in how to speak Parseltongue.

Draco was full of himself on the train. He wsa given a task by Voldemort and expected it to be easy. He soon learned that he'd bitten off more than he could chew, and by Slughorn's Christmas party, he was feeling the strain.

Moaning Myrtle would be a good source to vent to because she isn't involved, she would like having the company, and if she didn't know his name, what could she really tell anyone?



acid pops - Aug 12, 2005 7:35 pm (#1154 of 1825)
Draco was full of himself on the train. He was given a task by Voldemort and expected it to be easy. He soon learned that he'd bitten off more than he could chew, and by Slughorn's Christmas party, he was feeling the strain. (bold added)

Weeny Owl, I don't think Draco actually expected it to be easy. As you just said yourself, he was full of himself on the train. If there's one thing Draco is notorious for, it's talking himself up. Draco has shown on numerous occasions that he is more a man of words than actions. He would like to be tough, and confident, and cool like his father, but in reality he is prone to the jitters. It is no coincidence that he was transfigured into a twitchy little ferret.

I think Draco was attracted to being a Death Eater because they are the biggest bullies, and he loved the prospect of power that being in Voldemort's ranks had to offer. Draco was under the impression that being branded with the Dark Mark was going to be an automatic power-surge, until he discovered that those who join Voldemort are mere minions compared to the Dark Lord himself. Once Draco was humbled by his master, his superiority complex at Hogwarts was quick to wear off.



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2005 8:37 pm (#1155 of 1825)
I can't help it, Wizadora. I do not think Draco has ever really been bullied. I do think he was scared. Bullies often turn out to be cowards. Alas, Draco chose to throw in his lot with the biggest bully in the Wizarding World, and by the time we see him with Myrtle, he is terrified that he may not be able to complete the task set to him. However, I can't help thinking he was more fearful for his own skin than for anything that might happen to anyone else--and that includes his family.

I agree with acid pops that Draco was attracted to the power and prestige of being a DE. His family name had certainly been tarnished in the Wizarding World at large, with discovery of Lucius's true allegiance. Any prestige he may have enjoyed there was gone, and Draco does not like not being a big fish in the pond he inhabits. Alas, while Draco may have been evil enough to be a DE, he was not yet brave enough to risk all ... and it will be interesting to see what happens to him from this point onward. JM2K ...

Solitaire



haymoni - Aug 12, 2005 9:19 pm (#1156 of 1825)
I still want to know why he was in that bathroom.

It was a GIRLS bathroom, yes?

If he wasn't in there to look for the Chamber or to hunt Myrtle down for some reason, why would he be there.

Do you think Myrtle knows that Voldy killed her? Does she know that she was being sympathetic to a follower of the wizard who caused her demise?

Edit after reading Sarlinda's post below: Thanks! That's what I get for letting Ungrateful Son keep the books in his room!



Saralinda Again - Aug 12, 2005 9:21 pm (#1157 of 1825)
No, Myrtle was in the boys' bathroom.

Harry asked her at one point why she was there, and she reminded him that sometimes she visited other bathrooms -- she had even talked to him in the prefects' bathroom during his fourth year.



the almighty kneazle - Aug 12, 2005 10:06 pm (#1158 of 1825)
Why would Malfoy connect Moaning Myrtle to the Chamber of Secrets, though? It look a looooooong time for Harry to finally figure out why Myrtle was there--why would Malfoy waste his time trying to figure out anything about the Chamber? I don't know, is it that difficult to see Draco actually crying? Everyone cries, some just more secret than others. Its not like he could cry in his dormitory... its not exactly private, is it? Poor guy, despite his horridness, I do feel bad for him occasionally...



Vulture - Aug 14, 2005 1:40 pm (#1159 of 1825)
Mrytle tells Harry that there is a boy coming to see her and that he has told her he is being bullied. (Verbina [/b]- Aug 11, 2005 7:14 pm (#1139))

Thanks, Verbina _ found it. Occurs to me, though: we've only Myrtle's word for it that Draco comes to see her. After all, didn't she describe Harry & Co.'s trips to "her" bathroom in Book 2 as "coming to see her" ? _ and that was the last thing on their minds (until they realised she was involved, of course). In Book 4, she is still reproaching Harry about not coming to see her anymore. I don't think anyone but Myrtle is supposed to take her notions of herself seriously.

The chances are that Draco goes there because, being famous as "Moaning Myrtle's bathroom", he won't be disturbed. Mind you, I felt that the whole writing of this was clumsy _ mainly a way to have Harry find out that Malfoy wasn't too happy about his task.

On another topic, I daresay everyone has seen various comparisons between Draco and Harry as a result of Book 6 ? Harry is supposed to go after Voldemort _ Draco to go after Dumbledore; Harry's mother _ Draco's mother; Sirius (in Book 5) follows Harry to protect him, and is killed instead of him _ Snape follows Draco, and kills instead of him. Of course, the very differences in each case highlight the whole good v. evil issue _ the exception being the motherhood comparison, where we have some sympathy with how Narcissa feels in the "Spinner's End" chapter.

Narcissa certainly now knows something of how Lily felt (at Godric Hollow) _ however, as we see from her confrontation with Harry at Madam Malkin's, she does not generalise from her own maternal feelings to understand (much less sympathize) with similar feelings in others, particularly those opposed to Voldemort.



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 15, 2005 6:26 am (#1160 of 1825)
Interesting comparisons between Harry and Draco, Vulture. About the mother thing and good vs. evil differences , Lily jumps in to protect her son, while Narcissa asks Snape to jump in and save her son for her.



Saralinda Again - Aug 15, 2005 7:46 am (#1161 of 1825)
In all fairness to Cissy (now, there's a phrase I never expected to write!) she has no day-to-day access to Hogwarts to step in and try to save her son. And I expect that he made that promise and received that mark outside the eagle eye of Mumsy.

I don't think she has many options to save Draco other than to take him into hiding (which might condemn her husband) or to attempt to negotiate with someone who does have access to Hogwarts.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 15, 2005 10:03 am (#1162 of 1825)
Solitaire, I guess that is what I get for not reading the entire forum :0 I had never looked onto this thread and with over a thousand posts, I lost my patience and started skipping around. Thanks for the link, it must have been frustrating for you to see your own words many posts later - sorry about that. All in all, I was shocked at how similar my thoughts were to your post.

I also, feel as though the Chamber was too large (in both respects) to leave behind. That was quite an elaborate place. I thought Draco was possibly prying for information.

Does anyone think that if Draco hadn't reacted the way he did when he caught Harry spying him, Harry may have tried to help him? (I'm ready for the dungbombs!)



Vulture - Aug 15, 2005 12:51 pm (#1163 of 1825)
Does anyone think that if Draco hadn't reacted the way he did when i he caught Harry spying him, Harry may have tried to help him? (HungarianHorntail11 [/b]- Aug 15, 2005 10:03 am (#1162))

I think: Not at that particular point, but yes, you're on to something: I think that possibility could have formed in Harry's mind if the fight hadn't happened. The tragedy (for him and Dumbledore) is that Harry at this point doesn't realise the extent of the division between Draco and Snape. Also, he is focussing a little too much on Draco (perhaps allowing the feud between them to have a bit too much influence on his judgement) as opposed to keeping an eye on the Dark Side in general. (Admittedly, he's getting no help from his friends or the Order in his investigations.) If he was more cool and clinical (and a bit less eager) _ in other words, if he was better at spying _ he (a) might not have been discovered, and (b) might have been able to weigh up and manipulate Draco's state of mind, with a view to "turning" him, as spy novels say. But a lot would still depend on Draco _ yes, he's desperate, but is he desperate enough to forget his enmity towards Harry ? Yes, Dumbledore is able to make an impression on him (Draco) on the tower, but remember that Malfoy doesn't have a really personal dislike of Dumbledore, and also, Dumbledore has all the authority of a Headmaster.

Another tragedy is that Ron and Hermione aren't "on board" with Harry's investigation (as they were in other books) _ they need the team effort to judge things properly; none of them individually can match Snape's ability to switch off emotion and be ice-cold when weighing up what he needs to work out.



Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2005 1:24 pm (#1164 of 1825)
There are a lot of "what-ifs" with Harry and Draco.

If Harry had put on his Invisibility Cloak before entering the bathroom, he might have heard something significant.

I think if Harry had been a bit more emotionally distant he might have managed to talk to Draco, but at that point, I don't see that Draco would have been willing to listen. Draco still blames Harry for Lucius being in Azkaban, and after stomping on Harry's face at the beginning of the year, he would expect an attack in retaliation. It's what he would do, after all, so why would Harry just want to talk? Draco is on the edge, and I can't see him being willing to listen.

But you didn't ask that, did you? You asked if Harry might have tried to help Draco if Draco HAD be willing. I think he might have because what Harry's greatest strength is is his heart. He's a compassionate person, and while he doesn't like or trust Draco, he has enough empathy in him to try, I would think.



Solitaire - Aug 15, 2005 3:50 pm (#1165 of 1825)
HH, I wasn't upset. I think it appeared that way, because the word that was underlined (as a link). Sorry! I just didn't want to restate everything I'd said, so I linked to it. We do seem to think alike on the issues of the Chamber, I believe. I just find it hard to believe that we have seen the last of it ... don't you?

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 16, 2005 5:13 am (#1166 of 1825)
Vulture, as troubling as it was for me to read that Ron & Hermoine weren't backing up Harry, it may work for the better in the end. Remember the MoM fiasco wouldn't have occurred if Harry had listened to Hermoine. Hermoine has a cool head, Ron has a good read on people and Harry has pretty good instincts so they're bound to disagree.

Weeny Owl, if Draco is on the edge, that is exactly why he should be willing to think before acting. You never know where help may come from when you are in need. That is very telling of Draco's character, kind of like his mother leaving the robe store because of the 'atmosphere'- that could burn many bridges - yet she was so desparate in Snape's presence . Draco is too smug to know better, yet very desparate? What a shame if this is true.

Thanks again for the link, Solitaire. With JKR, where there's smoke, there's fire and it seems as though when something is picking at my brain, there's a reason for it. As I was reading, I thought it was very out of character for Draco to open up in such a way (crying). Why couldn't it be a convincing act? The very telling thing for me was how quickly he was able to "switch gears" into the mode in which he received Harry. If someone is in a full fit of crying, shuddering, etc., you can't just shake that off in a snap. He seems to know how to 'work' his mother and I think he was using the same tactics on Myrtle. I think Salazaar did a lot of work down there and Tom Riddle had only scratched the surface. There may have been some talk from his father in Draco's presence - enough to pique his interest - about the Chamber. Just a feeling.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 16, 2005 6:21 am (#1167 of 1825)
IMO, there are two problems with this theory, though:

1. Draco has no reason whatsoever to believe that Myrtle could give him any clue or information, concerning the Chamber of Secrets. Remember, Harry and Ron only guessed that she had been killed by the basilisk after meeting Aragog in the forest, and there is no reason to believe that this information got passed to any Slytherin.

2. Even more significantly, Draco knows that he would be unable to open the Chamber anyway, because he isn't the heir of Slytherin (and as we know, this means that he can's speak parseltongue, unlike Voldemort the true heir, or Harry who isn't the heir either, but who has inherited Voldemort's ability to speak parseltongue...) Therefore, why should he have been looking for it anyway?

To my eyes at least, Draco's speed of reaction is very easy to explain: he feels profoundly humiliated because he's been seen crying by his worst ennemy at school, Harry... and this calls for immediate revenge, which explains why he nearly used an Unforgivable Curse. No need to think about it, he has always loathed Harry since the start of their first year at Hogwarts.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 16, 2005 9:40 am (#1168 of 1825)
Draco may have heard that the entrance was in a deserted bathroom and assumed it was the boys'. According to DD, news travels fast in HW, as in most places - Draco may not have gotten all of his information correct.

As arrogant as Draco is, he may figure that if Potter could open it, surely he could. After all, Harry wasn't the heir of Slytherin, either.

I'm not saying I am completely hooked on this line of thinking. I just think it is worth exploring and also in need of someone to counter it to see if it's worth delving deeper.



T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 10:23 am (#1169 of 1825)
It's possible that Myrtle volunteered the information to Draco about Harry's and Ron's little expedition into the plumbing. She may not have know exactly where it led, but she would have heard Harry hiss at it and seen it open, and later saw him re-emerge with Ginny, so odds are that the tap was the way into the Chamber.

Sparrowhawk, your explanation for Draco's quick switch from sobbing to attacking sounds convincing to me. Adrenaline does amazing things.



Solitaire - Aug 16, 2005 10:51 am (#1170 of 1825)
Draco has no reason whatsoever to believe that Myrtle could give him any clue or information, concerning the Chamber of Secrets

Are you sure this is true? Don't forget that Draco would certainly know that the Chamber had been opened in his second year. He probably also knew that the entrance was somewhere in Myrtle's bathroom; I can't believe that little piece of information would not have gotten around. Even if it hadn't, I bet Lucius knew that the entrance was somewhere in the bathroom. I suspect he also knew that Myrtle was the previous victim of the Basilisk ... so he may well have been able to connect the dots. Why would he not have given the information to Draco? There seems to have been a lot of "off camera" action with regard to Draco, so I do not believe we can automatically discount this idea just yet.

Solitaire



T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 11:14 am (#1171 of 1825)
Why would either Lucius or Draco know that the entrance was in Myrtle's bathroom? Lucius wasn't there when Voldemort opened the Chamber, and even if he knew, he deliberately didn't tell Draco about it in his second year, even though Draco wanted to know who was opening the Chamber so he could help.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 16, 2005 1:47 pm (#1172 of 1825)
Draco was in the boys' bathroom, so he didn't have all of his facts straight. He did, however seem to know about Myrtle.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 16, 2005 3:14 pm (#1173 of 1825)
There is no evidence at all that Myrtle ever understood the significance of the information that she gave to Harry, rather the opposite. And where has it been written that she saw Fawkes reemerge in the bathroom, trailing Harry, Ginny, Ron and Lockhart?

All we have got here is purely based on conjectures: there is not one single, solid piece of evidence to support the theory that Lucius or Draco had any knowledge of the Chamber of Secrets' entrance... and if we are to believe that they knew it, why stop there? Shouldn't they also know that it can only be opened by a parseltongue? One can't have it both ways, I'm afraid...



Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 3:58 pm (#1174 of 1825)
Harry grabbed Fawkes's tail feathers, everyone else grabbed on to someone else, they flew upward through the pipe, and all of them landed in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. They all left the bathroom and followed Fawkes to McGonagall's office.

Since Fawkes brought them to the bathroom and they all left together following him, it certainly seems as though Moaning Myrtle would have to have seen him.

Edit: Yes, Sparrowhawk, she was in the bathroom. She said to Harry, "You're alive." Then she mentioned that if he had died he would have been welcome to share her bathroom.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 16, 2005 4:02 pm (#1175 of 1825)
As you know, Myrtle loves to visit other places, including the prefects' bathroom... ;o)

There is no indication that she was still in the bathroom when they came back... and if she had seen it happen, I strongly doubt that she would have resisted boasting about it later, when she had the opportunity to see Harry again (for instance, in GoF).



T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 4:23 pm (#1176 of 1825)
Yes, she was in the bathroom when they came back - she said "You're alive" to Harry right after they all came back up through the pipe. Ron was even teasing Ginny about having competition as they were on their way to McG's office.



constant vigilance - Aug 16, 2005 7:52 pm (#1177 of 1825)
If someone is in a full fit of crying, shuddering, etc., you can't just shake that off in a snap. He seems to know how to 'work' his mother and I think he was using the same tactics on Myrtle. I think Salazaar did a lot of work down there and Tom Riddle had only scratched the surface. There may have been some talk from his father in Draco's presence - enough to pique his interest - about the Chamber.

Good point, Hungarian Horntail!

I had not thought of Draco's switch from crying to full-attack in that way. hmm. Your post has me considering the argument that Draco was purposely "crying" to Myrtle for some other (devious) reasons.

Part of me thought that Draco might change sides once he found out how Voldemort's team plays the game, so I had believed his crying to be sincere. Plus, Draco was not himself much of that year. Back when Lucius was one of the governors of Hogwarts, Draco found pleasure in using this to his advantage. When he was part of the Inquisitorial Squad, Draco took pleasure in using his power to punish others. In HBP, he is a full-fledged member of the biggest, bullying group--the Death Eaters---yet he doesn't terrorize any one, not even Harry. Draco used to love harassing at least Harry, yet this year it was not important. Quidditch did not matter to Draco. To me, it seemed that Draco's personality and/or priorities had drastically changed. His mission was wearing away at his ability to enjoy tormenting fellow students, which is *not* a bad thing, but it allowed be to believe his tears were real.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 16, 2005 11:53 pm (#1178 of 1825)
You're right, my mistake!

I should have reread the passage before posting, I guess! Surprised)



the almighty kneazle - Aug 20, 2005 6:01 pm (#1179 of 1825)
If someone is in a full fit of crying, shuddering, etc., you can't just shake that off in a snap. He seems to know how to 'work' his mother and I think he was using the same tactics on Myrtle.

I disagree, you can easily shake off a bout of crying. Especially being a teenager, his moods can fluctuate. I know personally that if you're interrupted while in a bathroom crying by someone you hate, you lash out extremely quickly, possibly even more passionately than you would were you in your normal state.

I still stand by the line of thinking that it wouldn't make sense for Draco to know about the Chamber of Secrets, and especially that it was in the bathroom. Why would he connect those two pieces of information? In CoS, he obviously knew nothing about the Chamber, proved by Harry and Ron's experience with the Polyjuice Potion. Myrtle most likely didn't forget about Harry, Ron, Ginny, Lockhart and Fawkes, but why would she tell Draco? And, she didn't know anything about the Chamber either?

He can't know about it. It just doesn't add up.



Esther Rose - Aug 22, 2005 8:30 am (#1180 of 1825)
Hi All,

I am new here. I believe that Draco's tears were real, his conversation with Moaning Myrtle was very much real and I believe that Draco's sudden switch on attacking Harry was very much real. In other words, that scene was a defining moment for Draco. To the point where I absolutely loved it. It was sad, but I loved it, because it was very emotional.

That scene was very carefully written so much so that you have to read the book more than once to see what is actually going on in it. (I don't know if I am allowed to spoil things for those who already have read it once so until I get the okay I wont go any further. I will say that Ms Rowling does give a number of hints on why Draco was crying later in the book.)

The reason why Draco attacks Harry is because just before Harry walked into the boys bathroom Draco said something to Myrtle that he did not want anyone else to know. Least of all Harry. So, not knowing how long Harry was standing there or how much information Harry listened in on he attacked. It was more out of defense than anything. In my opinion, it had nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets. I don't believe that Draco knows where the chamber of secrets is or that Myrtle knows where it is.



T Brightwater - Aug 22, 2005 10:24 am (#1181 of 1825)
Myrtle probably knows that there is an entrance to somewhere in her bathroom, since she saw Harry & co. leave and return via the pipe, but neither she nor Draco could do anything with the information, since neither is a Parseltongue. Also, Draco has given no sign that he knows that Myrtle was the "Mudblood" who was killed the first time the Chamber was opened, so I doubt it would occur to him to ask her.



timrew - Aug 22, 2005 3:24 pm (#1182 of 1825)
I like the 'Draco Crying' scene, because it is the first time his character has gone from two-dimensional to three. So far he has displayed one characteristic; and that is petulance.

There's hope for him yet..............



azi - Aug 23, 2005 9:09 am (#1183 of 1825)
I agree with Timrew. Finally, we got to see a 'bad' guy as something other than a 2-D character. I don't think Draco was faking his tears and a sudden switch to anger is not unexpected. He hates Harry and Harry appeared to have been listening in to his conversation. Maybe he even decided to take out some of his frustration on Harry. Whichever way, if Draco hadn't attacked Harry I would have wondered what book I was reading.



Solitaire - Aug 23, 2005 10:57 am (#1184 of 1825)
Given what Dumbledore has said in the past about the entire school managing to know things that were supposed to be a secret, I can't imagine that most of them would not know that Harry had entered the Chamber somewhere in Myrtle's bathroom.

I find it difficult to believe that most of Myrtle's schoolmates would NOT have known that she died in that bathroom. The kids talked about it in CoS, I believe (no books handy to check specifics), and we know Draco knew that the last time the Chamber was opened, a girl died, because he said as much to Harry and Ron (in their polyjuice disguise). Surely he would have been able to work out that Myrtle was the girl who died. It is even possible, given the fact that he was on a "mission" for Voldemort, that Voldemort told him about Myrtle.

I realize there is no evidence that Draco speaks Parselmouth. There is also no evidence that he was looking for the Chamber. However, if he had the clues and knew that the Chamber opening was somewhere in Myrtle's bathroom, perhaps he thought he might try to find it. He may not realize one needs to speak Parselmouth to open the Chamber. And I can see him wanting to find out its whereabouts, given that its creator was SS himself!

Solitaire



Verbina - Aug 23, 2005 12:11 pm (#1185 of 1825)
Edited by Aug 23, 2005 12:14 pm
I just find it difficult to accept that Draco, being the way he is for so long, would suddenly want to talk and confess to a rather depressing ghost like Myrtle. Possible but exremely unusual for Draco to do. Especially...wasn't Myrtle a Muggleborn? Or did I mess that up in my head?

I don't much think he would be wanting anythng with the Chamber. Or at least wanting to find the entrance unless he thought of it as a location for his secret work on the vanishing cabinet. Thatw ould be the only reason I would think.

But Myrtle is a ghost and goes anywhere in the castle she may want to go. This means she would be able to see things others (like Draco) would not or hear things they wouldn't. Of course, I may just be overly suspicious of him too.



Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2005 12:40 pm (#1186 of 1825)
I doubt if Draco talking to Moaning Myrtle was sudden.

There were significant changes in Draco's behavior from the way he was on the train until what we saw of him in the argument with Snape after they left Slughorn's party.

I can picture Draco being upset and Myrtle asking him why and him not responding much at first, and then him being even more upset and him talking a bit more, until we her her talking about the sensitive boy who is bullied.

Draco's change in behavior works quite well with him talking more and more to Moaning Myrtle.

As for her being Muggle-born, I doubt if Draco would bother asking about bloodlines where a ghost is concerned. She was a sympathetic ear, and he's selfish, so her listening to him would be to his advantage, and I doubt he'd ask her about herself.



Esther Rose - Aug 23, 2005 12:56 pm (#1187 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, I think that Draco was the same Draco at the Slughorn party. He was still the smartmouthed, bullying, attention starved character as he was in the beginning. I think it is after Slughorn's party that Draco changes drastically. Overnight almost. From Day to Night. And not just his personality he changes physically too which works into my theory that Draco's been Vamped. Bitten by Sanguini. Which would flip Draco's world in every way but right side up since it would compromise his "pure-blood" status. I almost want to have Rowling rewrite book six from Draco's point of view if I am right.

(I couldn't keep it in any longer. Really bad at keeping hush. Sorry if I made anyone upset but I realize that it is just a theory until Rowling says it's true.)



Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2005 1:25 pm (#1188 of 1825)
I didn't see Draco as the same person, though.

He had been caught by Filch because he didn't have his lookouts (Crabbe and Goyle) who had been given a detention by Snape. He was trying to repair the Vanishing Cabinet. He thought it would be easy, but he found it was difficult, and he was starting to feel the stress, hence the changes in his behavior and his physical appearance.

He argues with Snape and is disrespectful which surprises Harry quite a bit. Draco usually does all he can to suck up to Snape, and having Draco do anything else just seems totally wrong to Harry. That's a distinct change in his behavior.

I don't see how Draco being a vampire would do much for the plot of the final book since most of the book will probably be Harry finding the Horcruxes. Draco just isn't that important in the overall scheme of things, I wouldn't think.

Even if Draco is a vampire, he's still a pureblood. Vampires don't seem to have the same stigma attached to them that werewolves do or Slughorn wouldn't have had one at his party.

It's entirely possible that Draco is a vampire, but vampires don't seem to be mentioned much, at least not the same way werewolves are. How would Draco being a vampire affect the last book? Would it change the way Voldemort sees him?

We're definitely going to find out Draco's fate in the last book, and I can see JKR killing him off, having him go into hiding, having him come over to the Order's side (but never as a friend to the trio since JKR said Draco and Harry wouldn't be fighting together), and even becoming a true Death Eater and not just because he's afraid he and his parents will be killed. There are tons of possibilities for what JKR will do with him, and even if she makes him a vampire, with what we've read in these six books, I just can't picture it mattering that much as to which side he ends up on or as to whether or not he survives.



timrew - Aug 23, 2005 1:55 pm (#1189 of 1825)
I see Draco as upset, confused and bewildered. He has supposedly joined the Death Eaters, giving him an immense feeling of self-importance, and no doubt smugness (knowing Draco). And then he is given his first task - to murder his own headmaster............

There is a lot of difference between bullying (or, even beating up) someone, and murder. Draco has realised what being a Death Eater entails; and he doesn't like it.

I think him pouring his feelings out to Myrtle (a ghost) is perfectly understandable. She isn't a schoolmate who might blab, or betray the fact that he's been crying.

But I agree with what Weeny's said. Draco could now go in any direction. Should make for an interesting book 7!



Esther Rose - Aug 23, 2005 2:01 pm (#1190 of 1825)
Draco being a Vampire does compromise his Pure Blood Status since he will need to drink blood from then on to survive.

Also, there was little mention of Vampires since none of the characters up until now were Vampires. So we don't know the exact stigma a Vampire has in the wizarding world just yet. Which is probably not good if Snape and Dumbledore (And probably Madam Pomfrey) are keeping this minor detail under wraps.

Also, I wonder what would happen if Draco was a vampire and Harry feeds him. (Willingly or otherwise?)

Werewolves were not really mentioned until Lupin arrived.



Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2005 3:21 pm (#1191 of 1825)
I see Draco as upset, confused and bewildered. He has supposedly joined the Death Eaters, giving him an immense feeling of self-importance, and no doubt smugness (knowing Draco). And then he is given his first task - to murder his own headmaster............

That's how I see him. JKR said something in her interview with Melissa and Emerson about how Draco always talked the talk, but walking the walk is something different and he's now playing with the big boys and realizing it isn't all fun and games.

Draco being a Vampire does compromise his Pure Blood Status since he will need to drink blood from then on to survive.

Not really, because people eat steaks, blood pudding, other meats, and unless the blood is completely drained, some of it is still present. It would depend on what JKR does with vampires, but drinking blood seems to me to be different than genetics or heritage, and Draco is a purblood by birth regardless of anything that might happen to him.



rambkowalczyk - Aug 24, 2005 7:45 am (#1192 of 1825)
I too wondered about Draco being a vampire at Slughorn's party because Draco's description of unwellness "dark shadows under his eyes and a distinctly grayish tinge to his skin." is similiar to that of Sanguini's "who was tall and emaciated with dark shadows under his eyes". That and the fact that Draco shares the same name as count Dracula.

But for now I think this clue is a red herring meant to distract us from Draco's real mission. The dark shadows might just be an allusion that both are up to no good but hiding behind respectability.



Madam Pince - Aug 24, 2005 11:55 am (#1193 of 1825)
I thought the dark shadows under the eyes and grey tinge to the skin was just an indication that Draco was worried/exhausted/losing sleep over his failure to fix the Vanishing Cabinet, and what might happen to him or his family unless he gets a move on. He was working under quite an emotional strain, I would think.



Esther Rose - Aug 24, 2005 1:16 pm (#1194 of 1825)
It still seems funny to me that JKR introduces a Vampire named Sanguini into the story for nothing to happen. When Slughorn could have brought anyone else besides a bloodsucking being to the party. One that apparently still needs to be harnessed. We know that Sanguini is particularly hungry the night of Slughorn's party yet nothing seems to happen. (I am sure that pastry was not going to cut it. That's like wanting a banana split and someone handing you a celery stalk.)

Yet a few months down the road Harry notices changes in Draco very similar to Sanguini's description and assumes that it's only because Draco's plan is not going well. We have seen Harry interpret what is going on wrong a couple of times before in HBP. Could he not have misinterpreted Draco's symptoms as well.

That said do you think Draco still has Snape's potion book?



Steve Newton - Aug 24, 2005 1:18 pm (#1195 of 1825)
I can't think of which potion book of Snape's that Draco might have.



Esther Rose - Aug 24, 2005 1:34 pm (#1196 of 1825)
The one Harry put in the Cabinet that Draco was trying to fix.



Steve Newton - Aug 24, 2005 1:50 pm (#1197 of 1825)
I don't see how Draco would have gotten that. I'll have to reread but I didn't think that they were the same cabinets.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 24, 2005 2:17 pm (#1198 of 1825)
I think I'm lost. "I need a place to hide my book...He turned right past an enormous stuffed troll, ran on a short way, took a left at the broken Vanishing Cabinet in which Montague had got lost the previous year, finally pausing beside a large cupboard that seemed to have had acid thrown at its blistered surface." Is there a cabinet I missed or are we talking cupboard?

...toddles off wondering... am I just lost?...



T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2005 3:10 pm (#1199 of 1825)
Madam Pince, I think you're right. It doesn't really do anything for the story to make Draco a vampire, but showing that he's under emotional strain is a clue. It shows that whatever it is he's doing for LV, it's neither as easy nor as fun as he apparently thought.



Weeny Owl - Aug 24, 2005 8:25 pm (#1200 of 1825)
Yet a few months down the road Harry notices changes in Draco very similar to Sanguini's description and assumes that it's only because Draco's plan is not going well.

It wasn't a few months down the road that Harry noticed changes in Draco. It was that same night that Harry first saw Sanguini. Harry noticed Draco's appearance when he was brought in by Filch.

Steve... the Vanishing Cabinet and the cupboard where Harry hid the book are not the same; you're right. I see no reason why Draco would be searching that cupboard for anything when he needed to repair the Vanishing Cabinet. I doubt if Draco has the Half-Blood Prince's potions book, but anything is possible.

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