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Draco Malfoy

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1201 to 1250

Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 12:16 pm

haymoni - Aug 25, 2005 3:51 am (#1201 of 1825)
I think Draco is going to be a very lonely boy.

He's 16 years old and he's a wanted man.

No more strutting through Diagon Alley, no more bullying Crabbe & Goyle, no more grooming from Pansy.

He's going to be in hiding - at Spinner's End, I'm guessing - he won't be able to do anything but serve Voldy.



T Brightwater - Aug 25, 2005 7:04 am (#1202 of 1825)
I think he'll remember that DD offered him a way out. It's possible that he'll find a way to get to Harry, with or without help from Snape, and I think Harry would help him, not without some misgivings.



Esther Rose - Aug 25, 2005 7:35 am (#1203 of 1825)
Edited Aug 25, 2005 8:15 am
Okay, I read where Harry hid his potion book wrong. My mistake.

However, I still believe that Draco is a vampire. And that he was bitten by Sanguini the night of Slughorn's party. Whether it goes with the story we know now or not. Draco's physical change was still written after Harry met Sanguini.

I still find it tough to believe that nothing happened with a hungry vampire in the middle of a Christmas party. It just kind of sets the stage for me. Out of all of the guests at the party Draco is the only one who changes physically. So my guess is that Draco got bit. If Draco did not get bit at the Christmas party then someone did because it was too much of a set up.

If Draco is a vampire he can certainly get back into Hogwarts undetected as a bat. After all Sirius got into Hogwarts as a Dog. (Provided Harry doesn't see him on the Mauder's Map.) It also gives Harry and Draco a way to get into and out of the Chamber of Secrets together if the two make amends. Fawkes has gone with Dumbledore. I doubt that Harry will be able to count on Fawkes helping him in the time of desperate need from now on in. It is easy to trust your friends. Not so easy to trust someone you have butt heads with for six years.



haymoni - Aug 25, 2005 9:08 am (#1204 of 1825)
I don't think Harry would ever trust Draco.

He wouldn't be able to believe him, especially since he knows about the lessons Aunt Bella has been giving him.

If he finds Draco half-dead, broken & bleeding, he might remember that he hesitated before killing Dumbledore, but I don't know that he would do much for him.



Weeny Owl - Aug 25, 2005 9:53 am (#1205 of 1825)
If Draco is a vampire he can certainly get back into Hogwarts undetected as a bat.

If you go by traditional vampire legend, then yes, Draco would change into a bat if he's a vampire, but there's no way of knowing if JKR would go that traditional route.

If you go by the traditional vampire legend, then just being bitten wouldn't do it. Draco would have to feed on blood himself.

I would think that if a vampire were living at Hogwarts someone would notice since the vampire would be trying to bite people frequently. Draco was too busy repairing the Vanishing Cabinet to be wandering the halls looking for victims.

haymoni, I completely agree with you... Harry has no reason to trust Draco. Harry might help him under extreme circumstances, though.



Finn BV - Aug 26, 2005 4:27 pm (#1206 of 1825)
I'm afraid I've always thought the vampire theories to be completely unreal, so I'm sorry to say I can't join you in this, Esther Rose. I completely agree with you that it is unusual that Sanguini just hopped along for that one little mention, but it could just be to show what type of people Sluggy invites to his parties. I don't think Malfoy ever got that close to Sanguini anyway; wasn't he off with Snape discussing something top-secret… (need a desperate reread of that chapter!)



haymoni - Aug 26, 2005 4:57 pm (#1207 of 1825)
I actually thought Sanguini was a nod to the Forum. I should probably post this over in that thread.

We had so many discussions about Snape being a vampire, I think JKR just gave us one to shut us up.



Finn BV - Aug 26, 2005 6:18 pm (#1208 of 1825)
Yes, I agree haymoni about the nod to the forum.

And as I'm reading back what I wrote in post 1206, it sounds like I need a reread of the "top-secret" thing. Just wanted to clarify I actually am aware of what goes on there, just the rest of the chapter is a little hazy to me. When I reread it I will have more things to say about the shadows under Draco's eyes. (Boy, I'm just not saying anything clearly at all today! )



T Brightwater - Aug 26, 2005 7:31 pm (#1209 of 1825)
haymoni, you took the words right out of my keyboard...



Solitaire - Aug 27, 2005 11:21 am (#1210 of 1825)
TB: I think he'll remember that DD offered him a way out.

One problem: Dumbledore is no longer around to make good on the proffered "way out." Are any of the other Order members powerful enough--assuming (big assumption) they were even willing--to follow through on Dumbledore's wishes and take the Malfoys into the "Wizard Protection Program" and hide them from Voldemort and his minions?

BTW, haymoni ... I think you're onto something there!

Solitaire



Esther Rose - Aug 30, 2005 9:47 am (#1211 of 1825)
I was never a part of this forum until recently. (If it was just a shout out that is one big shout out. imho.) So I missed all of the other Vamp theories. This is the only one I can see believing.

I would not have mentioned any Vamp theories if Sanguini was not added to the story and Draco did not start looking like Sanguini at Slughorn's party (After Harry meets Sanguini) and for the remainder of the book.

I also think that Draco's change in the disguise of stress could be an excellent way to disguise Draco's condition of becoming a Vampire.

And we don't know if Sanguini and Draco met one another because we only see Slughorn's party from Harry's point of view.



haymoni - Aug 30, 2005 10:43 am (#1212 of 1825)
Esther - It is hard to read through tons & tons of postings. I know when I first joined there were a lot of theories out there and people shot me down left & right - very nicely, of course - because they had already hashed out my apparently-not-so-original thoughts.

Many people felt that Snape was a vampire. I can't remember a lot of the details - he wouldn't stay for dinner at #12 was one of the arguments - the sallow skin - "bat-like" descriptions - things like that. They were really good thoughts but didn't pan out.

I think Draco is merely scared to death and under a lot of pressure to perform. He's got to know that he's a dead man if he doesn't go through with this. Imagine having to murder Dumbledore on top of all your schoolwork!

I just wonder what happened to Draco when he appeared before Voldy after failing his mission.



Solitaire - Aug 30, 2005 11:45 am (#1213 of 1825)
I was a Snape-is-a-Vampire fan, but I think Jo has pretty well nixed that theory. Bummer! I do agree, however, that Draco is most likely suffering under the stress of the mission ahead of him. I can't believe Narcissa would not have mentioned his having been vamped, if it had happened.

Solitaire



Esther Rose - Aug 30, 2005 11:54 am (#1214 of 1825)
I understand what you are saying but I am not completely abandoning my theory until book 7 is published.

On another note, I find it hard to see Harry's last year at Hogwarts without Snape and without Malfoy. I think at least one of the two (if not both) have to return incognito somehow.



haymoni - Aug 30, 2005 1:28 pm (#1215 of 1825)
Hold to your theory, Esther!

Don't let us dissuade you!



T Brightwater - Aug 30, 2005 2:44 pm (#1216 of 1825)
Solitaire, DD isn't the wizard I thought he was if he didn't have some contingency plans worked out, especially if he knew about Snape's Vow. The Order's a bit flustered now, but I'm sure they'll get themselves back together; they have to.

If Snape is in deep cover, the only person Draco knows for sure is in the other camp is Harry, and however much it might gall him, I think he'll ask Harry for help. And however much it galls him, I think Harry will give it.



Weeny Owl - Aug 30, 2005 3:27 pm (#1217 of 1825)
Draco didn't kill Dumbledore. That only means he isn't a killer, but it doesn't mean he's a good guy or that he'll be on the side of Voldemort's defeat.

Draco was cocky and arrogant as usual on the train. It wasn't until he began having problems with it that he seemed to fall apart.

With Draco's background, with the upbringing he's had, with the intense rivalry with Harry, with him detesting Weasleys, with him detesting Hermione and other Muggle-borns, I just don't see Draco changing to the side of the Order.

Even thought he was in the bathroom crying, his tears were about himself and what might happen to him and his parents. He wasn't crying about getting involved with this evil snake-like thing... he was crying because HE might be killed. He also began to use and Unforgivable Curse on Harry, and while Harry's Sectumsempra was horrible, the fact remains that Draco was planning on using a horrible curse on Harry.

As much as I would like to think otherwise, T, I just don't see Draco being willing to ask anyone for help. He was on the verge of accepting help from Dumbledore, but he hasn't had the rivalry with Dumbledore that he's had with Harry.



T Brightwater - Aug 30, 2005 4:29 pm (#1218 of 1825)
I take your point, Weeny Owl; I don't think Draco necessarily wants to change sides, but I think he has realized what he's let himself in for by joining the DEs. He might get desperate enough to ask for help, if only to save himself and his parents.

PS love your avatar!



Weeny Owl - Aug 30, 2005 8:32 pm (#1219 of 1825)
Thanks, T. Nagini wanted a little bit of the spotlight for a change.

Okay, I understand what you're saying, and I can sort of see it. If it's desperation driving him and not his better nature (if he has one), then he might feel trapped into asking his nemesis for help. I could see it under those circumstances.



Herm oh ninny - Aug 30, 2005 9:54 pm (#1220 of 1825)
I can also see him changing sides for revenge....say if Voldie does in Lucious.



Wisey - Aug 31, 2005 3:10 am (#1221 of 1825)
I reckon that's the crux of it, what LV does to the various Malfoy family members in the time between Bk6 and Bk7. Malfoy's been brought up in a LV cult hero loving family - but it's like so many things life kids can only swallow the hype for so long before logic and reality kick in. I think Malfoy has already realised the vast chasm between the myth and the reality. It will be the choice he makes in the end which JKR has already enlightened us with at the end of Bk6.



Soul Search - Sep 2, 2005 2:01 pm (#1222 of 1825)
Draco was the first Hogwarts student Harry met. He has been Harry's nemesis for six books. His character will at least continue, and I feel Draco, and his parents, will be significant to the storyline's final resolution.

The Malfoys are doomed. The only way they can survive is to go into hiding until the Chosen One, Harry, destroys Voldemort.

The Malfoys should be motivated to help Harry. Bit ironic, but there you are.

Lucius and Narcissa are skilled and know a lot about Voldemort. Quite likely they know things that will help Harry.

Draco may be over being a coward and showed more skill in HBP than we would have given him credit for.

My only question is, how will it work out. No hints from anything.

Horcruxes come to mind, but Harry has to be very careful with the fact that he even knows about them.

Voldemort, no doubt, has been planning Harry's demise. Maybe the Malfoys will warn Harry. It would be to their advantage for Harry to survive.



Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2005 8:37 pm (#1223 of 1825)
I have the feeling that the Malfoys are pro-Voldemort through and through. They may not like him, they may fear him, they may wish they had another leader, but he represents what they want... a pure Wizarding society with no dirty blood, with no one who doesn't deserve to be there, with no contamination from filthy Mudbloods.

Narcissa was frightened for her son, yet still sneered at Hermione in Madam Malkin's. Her look of contempt was for Hermione. Draco's comment in Madam Malkin's was about Hermione. Nothing has changed for them except their lives being forfeit unless Draco accomplishes his deed, or if Snape does it for him.

Even while Draco is threatening Dumbledore he still manages to call Hermione a Mudblood yet again.

The attitudes the Malfoys have are the same. They just want to make sure that they don't get killed because Lucius messed up. Draco was quite proud that Voldemort gave him a deed to accomplish. He wasn't quite so happy when he couldn't do said deed and was receiving threats, but on the train he was pleased with himself.

The Malfoys may not be too thrilled to be on Voldemort's bad side, but they made their choices in supporting him, and nothing I've seen in HBP makes me think they'll do anything but continue supporting him.

All we saw, really, was that Narcissa didn't want her son killed and Draco didn't want himself or his parents killed and that he couldn't kill Dumbledore. As we saw from Umbridge's nastiness, killing isn't necessarily the only evil in the Wizarding world, and Draco was trying to Crucio Harry. If Draco is willing to use Unforgivable Curses on other students when the only thing said student did was see him cry, then Draco is still the same slimy jerk he always was. He may not be able to kill someone, but he can still torture someone. That makes him exactly the same as he always was to me.



Soul Search - Sep 3, 2005 6:17 am (#1224 of 1825)
Weeny Owl -- I agree with most of what you are saying, except:

I have the feeling that the Malfoys are pro-Voldemort through and through.

The Malfoys are very pro-pure-blood, but are not, exactly, pro-Voldemort.

Lucius never went looking for Voldemort in the ten years he was hiding out in vapor form in Albania. Yet, Wormtail was able to find him. Lucius was close to the Ministry and could have tracked down any of the clues to Voldemort's location that came up. What Lucius told Voldemort in the GoF graveyard scene was rubbish; he would rather Voldemort never came back.

Lucius was doing quite well without Voldemort. His influence and gold at the Ministry was, piece-by-piece, getting him everything he wanted. The ministry was enough "pure-blood" directed that Mr. Weasly had a closet for an office, just because he was fascinated with muggles.

We saw Lucius' considerable influence in CoS, PoA, and, especially, in OotP. My read has been that the whole OotP conflict with the Ministry versus Harry and Dumbledore was developed and directed by Lucius. True, Voldemort was back by then, but it just shows how much influence Lucius really had at the Ministry.

Voldemort only represented a danger to Lucius; Voldemort returning did not enhance the Malfoy's life at all. In fact, they are now in mortal danger from Voldemort.

That said, the Malfoys are still Slytherins, and will do what ever it takes to survive.

Their only chance is Harry.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 3, 2005 7:01 pm (#1225 of 1825)
Soul Search,

I agree it's possible that Lucius would prefer that Voldemort stayed dead. If anything he would have liked to have been his successor.



kage - Sep 5, 2005 6:56 am (#1226 of 1825)
"Their only chance is Harry." I doubt that Draco will want to see it this way, being the cruel, haughty and arrogant product of inbreed he is. But he definitely will remember that Mr. Snape has vowed to protect him. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Malfoys get fake-killed in book 7. Now that I think of it, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Mr. Snape has arranged those fake-deaths, either - killing the Malfoys being Mr. Snapes reward for getting rid of Dumbledore.



Soul Search - Sep 5, 2005 9:38 am (#1227 of 1825)
rambkowalczyk -- My impression was that Lucius was Voldemort's defacto successor, until he came back. Lucius worked in different ways and did not demand robe kissing, but those death eaters who stayed out of Azkaban looked to him. Our only example is the group of hooded figures having some fun with muggles at the World Cup. Voldemort confirms this example in the GoF Graveyard scene.

No doubt Voldemort figured this out. It could very well be that Voldemort, in part, set up the MoM event as a test of Lucius Malfoy. Lucius was very clever; Voldemort thought him a threat to his leadership. Voldemort might even be a bit jealous of Lucius Malfoy.

kage -- The Malfoys' faking their death sounds like a good start.

I don't think Snape can have a role in anything fake, though; he can't take the risk of Voldemort having any suspicion of his loyalty.

Is Snape's vow still in effect? My read was that it related to Draco's task from Voldemort, and was fulfilled when Snape killed Dumbledore.

The extensive Malfoy storyline has been building for six books. The scene with Narcissa completes the picture; Now, we know that Narcissa does not like Harry either. The scene satisfied any questions about Narcissa's nature.

The Malfoys don't know (as we do) that Harry will defeat Voldemort in a year. They will think they will have to evade Voldemort's efforts to kill them for a long time. They will get very desperate before going to Harry. Not sure how this will work out. Harry won't trust the Malfoys at all.

It may even be that one or two Malfoys do get killed, and only Draco has to go and help Harry.



Weeny Owl - Sep 5, 2005 10:57 am (#1228 of 1825)
Is Snape's vow still in effect? My read was that it related to Draco's task from Voldemort, and was fulfilled when Snape killed Dumbledore.

There were three parts to the vow, though. Snape is done with the parts of the vow where he would complete the deed if Draco couldn't.

He might be done with the part where he vowed to watch over Draco as Draco fulfilled Voldemort's wishes, but that one is debatable. It might depend on what else Voldemort wishes Draco to do.

The third part of the vow might be a life-long matter, though... it was to protect Draco from harm. There was no time limit on it, so it could come into play in the last book.



Ydnam96 - Sep 7, 2005 7:00 am (#1229 of 1825)
Weeny Owl, that is an interesting point. I "assumed" (which is bad with JKR) that when Snape finished Draco's duty at the end that the vow would be fulfilled...but you are quite right. He did agree to protect Draco from harm.

That may definetly have a significant impact on book seven...

Hmmm.....more to think about.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 7, 2005 7:09 am (#1230 of 1825)
And it is quite possible that Voldemort will try to harm Draco for failing to kill Dumbledore.

Even if Snape does not want to work against Voldemort, he might have to...



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 10, 2005 3:32 am (#1231 of 1825)
I don't think Draco is in danger of anything more than a dose of pain, really. Voldemort is going to be very happy Dumbledore is finished, he's not going to be fussed about Snape's help.



Soul Search - Sep 10, 2005 5:54 am (#1232 of 1825)
Joanna S Lupin -- I must disagree. Voldemort set up Draco's "impossible" task to kill Dumbledore as a particularly harsh punishment for Lucius; he had failed to get the prophesy and had caused one of his horcruxes to be destroyed.

Voldemort's expectation was that Draco would fail and then Voldemort could enjoy Lucius' suffering Draco's and Narcissa's death, while anticipating his own.

Now, Voldemort is in a quandary. Dumbledore is dead, which pleases him. Draco didn't kill Dumbledore, but did get death eaters into Hogwarts and set up the scene where Dumbledore died.

Snape killed Dumbledore, but also thwarted Voldemort's excuse for killing the Malfoy's.

Voldemort can't, however, back down. He has to kill the Malfoy's or lose face with the death eaters.



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 10, 2005 6:52 am (#1233 of 1825)
No, I don't think so. Voldemort was angry with Lucius, correct, but he also needs followers. Draco didn't kill Dumbledore but his hesistancy didn't cause the deed to fail. Draco is very young, almost a boy, I do not believe Voldemort will murder him, I more can see Draco being taken under personal coaching of the Dark Lord, much like in Captain Hook movie, to rid him of the little scrupules he still has. It doesn't bode well for Draco either to be a puppet prince, but I can imagine that. I'm not worried about his life in immediate future.



Soul Search - Sep 10, 2005 7:54 am (#1234 of 1825)
I don't fear for the Malfoy's lives either, but for different reasoning.

The Malfoy's can't take a chance that Voldemort will consider Draco's task successfully completed. Voldemort is, if nothing else, unpredictable. Reason and fairness do not enter his decision process.

When Draco got to Hogsmeade, he apparated to Narcissa. Upon hearing Draco's story, Narcissa would know to pack a bag and go into hiding. They will, likely, try to free Lucius from Azakaban so Voldemort can't kill him. They may be death eaters, but they are still a loyal family.

Then what?

They will end up helping Harry, reluctantly, but Harry's defeat of Voldemort is their only way to escape his menace.



Madam Pince - Sep 10, 2005 8:57 am (#1235 of 1825)
I don't think Draco is in immediate danger from Voldemort, either, because I think Snape will smooth it all over. He'll say something along the lines of "Well, it was a near thing for a moment there, My Lord, but thank goodness Draco here had fixed the Vanishing Cabinet to allow access for your other faithful servants, and together we were all able to accomplish the goal -- Dumbledore is dead. Now, what would you like us to tackle next?" or something like that.

As Dumbledore said -- "I trust Severus Snape."

And I have said all along that I think Draco will "turn" and end up helping Harry to defeat Voldy in the final battle.



Weeny Owl - Sep 10, 2005 9:37 am (#1236 of 1825)
Voldemort can't, however, back down. He has to kill the Malfoy's or lose face with the death eaters.

There's no reason why Voldemort would have to kill the Malfoys or lose face because he isn't known for letting everyone in on his plans.

Draco did get the deed accomplished in a way, and if the goal is getting rid of Dumbledore, then Voldemort would probably be too thrilled with that to be too harsh with Draco.

Snape may be the one in more trouble since he took it upon himself to shove Draco out of the way and do it himself. He can always say that time was of the essence, and while he was sure Draco would have done it, with members of the Order being in the castle, he felt that it was more important to get ride of Dumbledore quickly.

Either way, I don't see Voldemort killing the Malfoys or Snape because he'll be too happy that Dumbledore is gone. Perhaps he might indulge himself with a few rounds of the Cruciatus Curse just to make sure those involved are put in their places.



Soul Search - Sep 10, 2005 10:42 am (#1237 of 1825)
Weeny Owl

There's no reason why Voldemort would have to kill the Malfoys or lose face because he isn't known for letting everyone in on his plans.

Good Point. Draco, Narcissa, Snape, and Bellatrix knew of Draco's impossible task. Voldemort could come up with some nasty punishment that was short of killing the Malfoys, to justify himself, at least to them.

I still think Draco and Narcissa may go on the run, just because they can't trust Voldemort, but I am less sure of the need, now.

Madam Pince

I agree with your scenario regarding Snape's explanation of why he killed Dumbledore. He could also add "I have tolerated Dumbledore for a long time; forgive me, but I had to be the one that killed him." Voldemort would buy it; he would have felt the same way.

It may depend on the depth and nature of the Snape/Malfoys relationship. I feel there is a relationship, but have no canon to even hint as to its full nature.



muggle born - Sep 11, 2005 5:29 am (#1238 of 1825)
If Draco has changed his mind about being a death eater then will he follow in the footsteps of Regulas Black? Did Regulas Black go on Dumbledors wizard protection program?



Soul Search - Sep 11, 2005 7:48 am (#1239 of 1825)
I have expected Harry to, somehow, save Draco ever since Dumbledore compared Harry's relationship to Draco with James and Snape, then mentioned that James saved Snape's life (end of SS/PS.)

I fully expect the comparison to become storyline in book 7.

The expectation increased as Lucius Malfoy became more of a protagonist in CoS, PoA, and OotP. I gauge that everything is now set, with Narcissa completing the Malfoy/Harry antagonism early in HBP.

HBP further establishes Harry's (eventual) willingness to help Draco. First Harry observes Draco actually crying in the bathroom. In the last chapter, Harry notes that Draco lowered his wand and didn't kill Dumbledore. Harry expresses pity for Draco.

Voldemort's giving Draco an impossible task and threatening the Malfoys completes the picture. Now we know who Harry will save Draco from.

Wonder how it will work out?

Harry can't do much in book 7 that does not further his defeat of Voldemort, so there will be a connection.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 11, 2005 9:54 am (#1240 of 1825)
If Draco is indeed a Death Eater, he could be a valuable asset to Harry (provided Harry can convince him to rebel against Voldemort...)

More valuable than Snape was to Dumbledore, even, because Draco is never going to murder anyone...



Ana Cis - Sep 17, 2005 4:34 pm (#1241 of 1825)
Draco will probably experience what the Crutacious Curse is all about, if he hasn't already. Another incident that may occur is that LV may kill Narcissa to teach Draco a lesson, which in turn may set Draco against LV.





Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2005 8:11 pm (#1242 of 1825)
Or... Draco could continue to be exactly as he is now and continue to be pro-Voldemort even while being afraid for himself and his family. He still wants glory regardless of how scared he is. I just can't see him switching sides.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 17, 2005 8:23 pm (#1243 of 1825)
If Draco remains pro-Voldemort, and Voldemort decides to kill him...



RoseMorninStar - Sep 17, 2005 10:07 pm (#1244 of 1825)
You know, it's funny, but I could see Draco becoming just like Snape. If something occured that would make him turn against Voldemort but he would still be the nasty bully he has always been--with a HUGE chip on his shoulder.



Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2005 4:07 am (#1245 of 1825)
I can see that, Rose... the same nasty bully with a ferret-sized chip? He could do whatever might save himself and his parents, but I just can't see him ever truly being with the good guys. He might fake it, and he might want Voldemort gone, but he would still keep his blood prejudices and still hate the trio.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 18, 2005 6:20 am (#1246 of 1825)
Hate them enough to commit murder?

He couldn't even kill a helpless old man...



RoseMorninStar - Sep 18, 2005 7:33 pm (#1247 of 1825)
Perhaps he couldn't kill a 'helpless *cough* old man... but he might even be angrier for what he thinks of as a 'fault'. He could become more bitter, petty, angry, vindictive and nastier than he already is.



Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2005 8:10 pm (#1248 of 1825)
Draco wouldn't have to kill someone to prove what an evil little wretch he is.

While stomping on someone's face isn't quite in the same league as murder, it does prove that Draco holds grudges, wants revenge, and is willing to do harmful things to others. He could be instrumental in getting other people killed even if he isn't the one who does the deed. He is responsible for Dumbledore's death even if he isn't the one who cast the Avada Kedavra.



LooneyLuna - Sep 19, 2005 8:37 am (#1249 of 1825)
And in his efforts to get to Dumbledore, Draco did not care if someone else got hurt or died in the process. He was responsible for Katie being cursed by the necklace and Ron's poisoning. I'm sure Draco wasn't remorseful at all for those acts.



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2005 10:47 am (#1250 of 1825)
True, true, Looney, plus he did try to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry in the bathroom.

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Post  Mona Wed May 04, 2011 2:14 pm

Soul Search - Sep 19, 2005 11:15 am (#1251 of 1825)
Draco changed in HBP from the Hogwart's Express to the Tower. On the Tower, Draco lowered his wand. I don't think he would have lowered his wand if the opportunity to kill Dumbledore had occured at the beginning of the term.

What changed him? Moaning Myrtle? Snape? Dumbledore on the Tower?

I can't pinpoint anything.



Madam Pince - Sep 19, 2005 11:16 am (#1252 of 1825)
There was an episode of the old TV series "M*A*S*H*" where they focused on a pilot who dropped bombs from his plane -- he was very blase about the whole thing because he was so far removed from the horrors he inflicted -- when he visited patients at the hospital and was up close and could see the effects his bombs wrought, then he was very remorseful. In the American Civil War there was a similar phenomenon -- there were relatively few documented cases of bayonet wounds. It's an entirely different thing to shoot someone from some distance away, than to charge right up into somebody with a bayonet.

I see Draco sort of like that. He was OK and fine with it all when he couldn't really "see" the results of what he was doing, but once he was faced with actually doing it, face-to-face, then he wasn't able to complete the task. I don't know what that says about him -- does it show that he has a tiny bit of a "heart," or does it only show that he has limited vision, imagination, and sense of responsibility?



RoseMorninStar - Sep 19, 2005 1:22 pm (#1253 of 1825)
Madam Pince, that makes sense. It's sort of like before hand..when he could not see the 'whites of the eyes' of his enemy...it was all about glory and being the 'triumphant one'... in other words, the 'chosen one' from the dark side. That is all well & good (well, no it's not, but you get my idea) in theory, until it comes down to the actual act.

I think a lot depends upon how Draco feels about how Voldemort treated his father for his 'service'. Does he think his father was treated fairly by Voldemort? Does he blame Dumbledore or Harry for what has become of his family? Does he feel trapped like he has no alternative course to take? It will be interesting to see the path Draco takes. He sure has enough bigotry and hate and 'dark side' in his family to ever see him totally turn around like Andromaeda or Sirius did, but that does not necessarily make one a murderer either.



Soul Search - Sep 19, 2005 3:40 pm (#1254 of 1825)
I hadn't thought of it before, RoseMorninStar, but Draco should have held more of a grudge against Harry and the MoM crew. Yes, he stomped Harry on the train, but he would have seized that opportunity regardless, after what happened to him on the return trains in GoF and OotP.

Maybe he was too busy trying to accomplish his "impossible" task for trivia like grudges. After all, Dumbledore's death was the ultimate way to get back at Harry.



LooneyLuna - Sep 19, 2005 4:16 pm (#1255 of 1825)
The more I think about it, I think Draco didn't want to get his hands "dirty" so to speak. That's why he attempted to kill Dumbledore from afar, use third parties. When Draco realized he had to kill Dumbledore, face to face, he knew he didn't have it in him. As Dumbledore stated, Draco is no killer. That doesn't mean that Draco would not have been happy if he had killed Katie, Ron, and Dumbledore. He would have viewed Katie's and Ron's deaths as bonuses and taken full credit for them, along with Dumbledore's death.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 21, 2005 6:25 am (#1256 of 1825)
If Katie Bell had died Draco could have said it was her fault for touching the necklace. If Slughorn or Ron had died it would have been their fault for drinking something without testing it. As Madame Pince pointed out these deaths were indirect. Draco on one hand could have taken full credit (in public) but in private Draco could still say to himself it wasn't his fault.



Solitaire - Sep 21, 2005 9:32 pm (#1257 of 1825)
Actually, I think Draco would be more likely to try and blame the victims for their own misfortunes in public while taking credit for for the dastardly deeds in private, with his friends. JM2K, of course.

Solitaire



Derek Robertson - Sep 30, 2005 4:10 am (#1258 of 1825)
I know it wasn't stated clearly in HBP that Draco was a death eater, but I think JKR has pretty much said so.

I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater?

This proves it to me that he was one before returning to school in his 6th year. Other evidence is him being given orders from Voldemort, the dodgy arm movement in Madame Malkins and getting through the jinxed barrier on the stairs suggesting the dark mark, knowing a bunch of Death Eaters and letting them into Hogwarts.

Draco Malfoy was and is a Death Eater.... so there!



haymoni - Sep 30, 2005 6:00 am (#1259 of 1825)
I agree Derek.

I think he probably thought it was cool to get a tatoo just like dear old dad!



Solitaire - Sep 30, 2005 9:25 pm (#1260 of 1825)
I'm afraid I have to agree with Derek.



pottermom34 - Oct 1, 2005 7:39 pm (#1261 of 1825)
I agree also. I wonder if the part of POA movie that showed him & C & G with their hoods up was the foreshadow for this. And if that was the part she said gave her goosebumps.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 3, 2005 5:47 pm (#1262 of 1825)
Hi, i brought up a point on another thread and it was suggested i come on over here.

Is it possible that Draco does not have the Dark Mark but a werewolf bite on his arm?

In tower chapter:

He went up the tower before the barrier was put in place
He came down the tower after the barrier was broken
He "did not seem to want to even glance" at Fenrir

In unforgivable curse chapter:
Snape refers to Draco's "master" but doesn't Snape always refer to Vold as "The Dark Lord"? And Draco's tone in reply is not typical of one refering to Vold

Any thoughts?



haymoni - Oct 4, 2005 5:45 am (#1263 of 1825)
He is looking sickly - some had guessed vampire, but maybe he is a werewolf.

I think he was just all worked up over his task.

I think Fenrir creeps everybody out!



LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2005 6:23 am (#1264 of 1825)
There's an editorial on Mugglenet that posits this same theory:

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The evidence is pretty compelling that Draco is a werewolf.



Esther Rose - Oct 4, 2005 6:53 am (#1265 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would get as much reaction from Burke if Draco showed him a simple werewolf bite. Also, the discussion between Draco and Dumbledore on the tower makes more sense if Draco is a DE. The part about Snape being a traitor and the part about Draco not knowing that Fenrir was in with the crew of DEs. Also, it would not explain the reason for the DEs presence in the battle if Draco was Fenrir's servant.

As far as Draco being a vamp or a Werewolf. Either is possible but my guess is he is a vamp. Either one works. Draco does seem to be hiding quite a bit in book six. However, wouldn't Dumbledore allow Draco to use the Shrieking Shack just as Lupin did if Dumbledore discovered Draco's condition. Someone would have known about his ailment at least by the time Harry did the Sectumsempra curse.



pottermom34 - Oct 4, 2005 7:32 am (#1266 of 1825)
I don't think Draco would get as much reaction from Burke if Draco showed him a simple werewolf bite--Esther Rose
Nor would he have such a reaction to Madame Malkin when she tried to lift his sleave for measurement.



LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2005 8:45 am (#1267 of 1825)
We know from Bill being bitten by Fenrir that werewolf bites don't completely heal. Who knows how sensitive such a wound would be if stuck with a pin. We also know that the WW fears werewolves so I think they would be scared by the sight of a werewolf bite.

If Snape brewed the Wolfsbane potion for Draco, there would have been no need for Draco to use the Shrieking Shack. He could hole up in the RoR.

The only thing is if Dobby and Kreacher were following Draco for a month or so, they would have discovered him transformed at one point or another.

To me, that is the main reason this theory doesn't work.



Verbina - Oct 4, 2005 10:28 pm (#1268 of 1825)
But for Draco to have had Snape brew up the potion for him, he would have to trust Snape. From the way he acts towards Snape throughout the book, he doesn' trust him at all.

That and the thing LooneyLuna mentioned about Dobby and Kreacher are the two things that keep me from following the Draco/werewolf idea further in my mind.



frogface - Oct 5, 2005 9:30 am (#1269 of 1825)
Its an interesting theory, but I don't see any evidence that strongly suggests Draco is a werewolf, and even with the evidence that suggests he could be a werewolf, it only provides an alternative to the evidence suggesting Draco is a death eater. So I'm not convinced really.



kingdolohov - Oct 7, 2005 1:08 pm (#1270 of 1825)
Draco's master is Voldemort.

"[Narcissa said] will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered to perform?".

Greyback is not the Dark Lord.



Verbina - Oct 7, 2005 10:52 pm (#1271 of 1825)
Edited by Oct 7, 2005 11:21 pm
Oh and pottermom...I think I may have found the thing that made JKR shudder while viewing the PoA movie...at least it made me shudder. I posted it in the clues from the movies thread.

Anyway, back to the conversation about Draco. While personally I am not entirely sure about him being a werewolf, I do find it interesting! And after all, until JKR tells us so...nothing is impossible.



Paulus Maximus - Oct 9, 2005 2:51 pm (#1272 of 1825)
Nothing is impossible until JKR tells us so, but some things are quite unlikely given the evidence.



Verbina - Oct 9, 2005 3:06 pm (#1273 of 1825)
I suddenly thought of something and I am not really sure it would add a great deal to the conversation but...here it goes. And please bear with me on this.

Tom Riddle created the diary to be a weapon against Hogwarts so that at a later date, someone who had the diary could open the chamber. So intended for the diary to be given to someone to use to reopen the chamber. He also gave the diary to Lucius for safe keeping without telling him what exactly it all was. I was thinking about who he would have had take the diary to the school when it hit me! Draco!!! Who better to take it into the school and do what it told him other than the child of a loyal deatheater who was also a student at the school?

Like I said, not exactly furthering the conversation perhaps but an interesting thing to ponder none the less.



Soul Search - Oct 16, 2005 7:34 am (#1274 of 1825)
In SS, "The Man with Two Faces," Harry talking to Dumbledore in the hospital wing, Dumbledore explains about James and Snape:

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive."

"What?"

"He saved his life."
The comparison between James/Snape and Harry/Draco shouted a clue for following books. I have been waiting for Harry to save Draco's life since.

Harry and Draco's enmity for each other reaches a peak in HBP. Harry even seems to start to pity Draco, just a bit.

Draco didn't complete his impossible task for Voldemort, so has to be on the run, trying to find a place to hide.

This is the perfect setup for Harry to save Draco's life in book seven. Narcissa too? The HBP scene in the robe shop includes Narcissa in the mutual hostility, so she will probably also be included in the saving act.

So where would they go to hide, to encounter Harry, where he will save them?


Hogwarts is out. Not only can't they go there, it is not likely safe anymore.

#12 Grimald Place. Harry will go there. Narcissa (Black) Malfoy knows the Black family home. And, Kreacher coming to her would have informed her that it is well protected. Narcissa could probably find it, since she knows it as the "Black family home" rather than the "Headquarters of the Order ... ." Imagine Harry opening the door to find Draco and Narcissa on the doorstep, seeking sanctuary! Maybe with death eaters right behind them.

#4 Privet Drive. Not sure how safe it would be for Draco and Narcissa, but an interesting speculation.

The Burrow. Narcissa and Molly are related, since Sirius was related to Molly (and Authur.) Lots of protections on the Burrow. I don't think the Malfoys will be invited to the wedding, but they could arrive seeking sanctuary from Voldemort. Maybe this is the best choice.
I don't see any connection between the Malfoy's and Godric's Hollow. Spinner's End is a possibility, but I can't see any reason Harry would go there. So, any other places the Malfoys could go to hide where Harry could complete the saving act?



wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 8:37 am (#1275 of 1825)
You know, it could be the other way around -- Draco saving Harry. The James/Snape and Harry/Draco analogy didn't, after all, correlate exactly the way it originally sounded in SS.



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2005 9:01 am (#1276 of 1825)
Like Soul Search, I believe it far more likely that Harry would step into the breach and save Draco than the other way around. First of all, Harry is our hero; Draco is a snivelling little brat, and I can't see him putting himself out of his way to do anything to help Harry. Second, we have already seen Harry grant a sort of "clemency" to Wormtail, the man who helped bring about the murder of James and Lily. Even in the first heat of learning this information--when we would have expected him to be full of the most passionate hatred--he made a choice to let justice take its course.

Finally, even if Draco couldn't actually kill Harry--something of which I am not necessarily convinced--I rather doubt he'd lift his wand to save him from death. Being unwilling or reluctant to kill a great and beloved Wizard like Dumbledore (even though Malfoy claimed not to like or respect him) is a whole lot different than being unwilling to kill Harry--a kid his own age, more or less a peer as far as their skills go, and the acknowledged bane of his existence. I will be stunned if Draco ever lifts a finger to prevent Harry's death.

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 9:07 am (#1277 of 1825)
Well, I doubt it would happen. But on the other hand, it would stun Harry, too. And sometimes one of the hardest things to come to terms with is when someone you are thoroughly at enmity with is the person who saves you. If that happens, it will probably happen elsewhere in the plot.



Soul Search - Oct 16, 2005 3:39 pm (#1278 of 1825)
Snape resented James saving him. I would think Draco would also resent any kind act from Harry.

Their relationship has changed. Through OotP Draco felt superior to Harry. His family was wealthy and his father influential. In HBP, Voldemort honored him with the Dark Mark. Draco is on top of the world.

Now, Draco has failed Voldemort. Lucius is in Azkaban and Draco and Narcissa are on the run. Harry is "The Chosen One."

Yet, Harry, "The Chosen One," is the Malfoy's only hope. They can't hide from Voldemort forever.

I'll bet Draco will expect Harry to help him, and be glad of it. (Does Draco know Harry saw everything on the tower?)

Could produce some interesting plot twists.

wynnleaf -- I don't understand how James/Snape and Harry/Draco don't correlate?



wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 4:00 pm (#1279 of 1825)
I don't understand how James/Snape and Harry/Draco don't correlate?

Oh, I just meant that you can't take the two pairs and line them up and say Harry is like James in the James/Snape enmity, and Draco is like Severus. Because, as it turned out in the books, the characters turned out to be quite different other than the obvious surface stuff of what house they were in. In many ways, the one and only real scene that we've seen of James in action, he comes across a bit more like Draco and his gang, bullying somebody who's otherwise minding his own business. And Severus was apparently more the loner and certainly doesn't come across like Draco -- the spoiled popular leader in his house with a group of friends that goes around bragging constantly and trying to find opportunities to attack Harry. In some ways, those basic characteristics of the group of friends, led by a somewhat spoiled, arrogant and popular leader, finding reasons to bully a loner student with few if any friends makes James and Draco a bit more similar.

I don't mean that James was anything like Draco really. On the other hand, we don't really know, do we? JKR has chosen to only let us see one scene with James in it, and he really acted a lot more like Draco. I can't even imagine Harry or any of his friends in that kind of context acting anything like James did. However, one could easily picture Draco doing that.

That's what I mean by the correlation. When DD first compared the two situations, I naturally (like probably many readers) pictured the James/Severus thing with James being just like Harry and Severus being just like Draco. But JKR has not revealed that at all. What she has revealed looked quite different.



Soul Search - Oct 16, 2005 4:13 pm (#1280 of 1825)
wynnleaf -- Good point. I agree. While their mutual enmity is similar, all the characters are quite different.



kingdolohov - Oct 16, 2005 8:07 pm (#1281 of 1825)
Sorry to break off the current discussion, but I had a question that seemed to fit here best, since it concerns Draco.

Do we know the other "elective" class Draco took? We know he was in Care of Magical Creatures. Obviously Muggle Studies wasn't an option. That leaves Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, and Divination. I don't see Draco putting up with tea leaves, so we're down to Arithmancy and Ancient Runes.

Any ideas?



Ydnam96 - Oct 16, 2005 11:11 pm (#1282 of 1825)
How many do they have to take? Cause I don't see him taking either one of those courses...too much work.



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2005 11:15 pm (#1283 of 1825)
I agree, Mandy. I wonder if there is some discretion in the number of NEWT-level courses they are required to take. I bet Malfoy, with his extra duties, would only have taken the minimum required number of classes.

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - Oct 16, 2005 11:17 pm (#1284 of 1825)
That's what I was thinking. I wonder what his goal is after Hogwarts? I mean, at this point I'm not sure that there is gonna be much of a Malfoy fortune to inherit. He better learn some marketable skills Wink



Saracene - Oct 17, 2005 1:23 am (#1285 of 1825)
I don't necessarily think that Draco and his mother are going to be on the run from now on. Draco may not have delivered the final blow himself, but he can surely take full credit for smuggling Death Eaters into the school and the bottom line is that DD has been killed and LV's orders have been broadly fulfilled. If anyone is due for some criticism from LV it's Snape, who showed up at the scene and blew his cover when really he didn't need to - any of Draco's "helpers" could have finished off DD. Anyways, I think that LV is going to be too jubilant that the only wizard he's ever been afraid of is gone to be seriously angry with anyone involved.

I think that Harry saving Draco is a possibility but I rather think that Draco is bound to do something redeeming in the next book, as well. Although I don't think that it will necessarily involve Harry; I don't really see Draco making -that- big a leap.



rambkowalczyk - Oct 17, 2005 4:24 am (#1286 of 1825)
I tend to agree that Draco isn't necessarily on the run. Even if they were they would turn to Snape not Harry. How ironic if Snape had to turn to Harry, but I suspect Aberforth or Lupin would be Snape's first choice.



Soul Search - Oct 17, 2005 5:24 am (#1287 of 1825)
Draco did do rather well, although it took him most of the school year.

Problem is, Voldemort set the task as punishment for Lucius. He really had little expectation of Draco fulfilling it. He might even be upset that Draco did so well.

This really puts Voldemort in a bit of a quandary: should he kill all the Malfoys, as he stated he would, or give them another chance?

My guess is he wanted an excuse to kill off "slippery" Lucius anyway, so he will declare Draco a failure. Death eaters are after the Malfoys as we type.



haymoni - Oct 17, 2005 7:31 am (#1288 of 1825)
If Draco succeeded farther than Voldy thought, he'll use him to the utmost.

"Look at what this unqualified wizard was able to accomplish? You dunderheads couldn't even bring me The Prophesy!"

I think Draco is safe as far as Voldy is concerned. He still needs DEs. He isn't going to kill Draco for getting his DEs into the castle. He may "Crucio" him a bit for failing to kill Dumbledore, but he'll say, "You'll do better next time." or something like that.

The problem is the Ministry of Magic. Draco is a Death Eater. Will they arrest Narcissa?

It may be one thing to claim that you didn't know your husband was a DE (How you don't know this, I have no idea - "What a charming tattoo, Lucius!"), but after he was caught, how do you claim that you weren't aware that your underaged son had also joined the club?

I wonder if we'll see pictures of Snape and Draco all over Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade?



Paulus Maximus - Oct 17, 2005 8:48 am (#1289 of 1825)
We know that Draco is a good Occlumens. Is he a good enough Occlumens to fool Voldemort?

I don't think he was a good enough Occlumens to fool Snape, since Snape knew he was using Occlumency.



wynnleaf - Oct 17, 2005 9:22 am (#1290 of 1825)
I don't know if we know that Draco is good at occlumency. We know that Severus stopped when Draco knew he was using legilimency and Draco started to counter it with occlumency. I don't think Severus attempted the kind of forceful invasion that he did on Harry later to discover where Harry had learned sectumsempra.

I don't think we really know whether or not Draco could prevent any fairly accomplished wizard from using legilimency on him.



kingdolohov - Oct 17, 2005 9:22 am (#1291 of 1825)
Snape knew he was using Occlumency because Draco said he was.

"-don't look at me like that! I know what you're doing, I'm not stupid, but it won't work - I can stop you!"

You can argue that Snape knew that Bellatrix was teaching him it because he used Legilimency, but he probably figured Bellatrix wanted Draco to do it, from her actions and words earlier in the book.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 18, 2005 3:39 pm (#1292 of 1825)
I think Narcissa at least will be on the run from Vold. In Vold's eyes, she is responsible for Snape blowing his 'spy' cover. Vold will find out she made him take the Vow and that Snape did what he had to do to fulfill that Vow. Again, this will all be from Vold's perspective: Narcissa screwed up Snape's chances to remain at Hogwarts after DD's death.

The question is, will Draco run to Mommy and tell her what DD said about the Wizard Protection Program...



Solitaire - Oct 18, 2005 4:34 pm (#1293 of 1825)
It would seem to be a moot point now that DD is dead. A potential problem which could ensue from such a communication--particularly if Narcissa is a full-fledged DE--is that she might alert other DEs to the fact that there are wizards-in-hiding (perhaps even former DEs) who may have been presumed dead up to this point. That could open a new kettle of worms.

Solitaire



Verbina - Oct 18, 2005 8:34 pm (#1294 of 1825)
A question here...and if it has bben addressed forgive me as I am in a bit of a rush at the moment. Plus, I am still not able to check in the book. On the astronomy tower, who knew that Draco attempted to kill Dumbledore? The deatheaters knew and Dumbledore. Harry knows because he was there but...Draco doesn't know he was there...does he? So...Draco may be under the assumption that no one knows about his attempt and failure to kill Dumbledore. But...as I said, I can't check the book at this time to find out.



Saracene - Oct 18, 2005 11:35 pm (#1295 of 1825)
Voldemort may not necessarily find out that Narcissa asked Snape to take the Vow if Bellatrix, Snape and Narcissa keep their mouths shut. LV would find it out of course if he had a suspicion that Narcissa went behind his back, but why would he get suspicious? Legilimency doesn't mean that LV knows -automatically- that his Death Eaters are hiding something - and it's not even certain that Narcissa herself is a Death Eater and has all that much contact with LV.



frogface - Oct 19, 2005 4:16 am (#1296 of 1825)
Well Verbina, we can only guess, but I believe its possible that Draco may have guessed Harry was there. Draco notices that there were two brooms when he arrives at the tower but Dumbledore manages to avoid answering who else was, or had been, there. Draco may have also been aware that Harry chased him and Snape as they escaped the castle. Snape probably told him it was Harry. Draco knows that Harry has an invisibility cloak, so he may well have put two and two together.



kingdolohov - Oct 19, 2005 5:49 am (#1297 of 1825)
I'm sure if the Ministry could put two and two together, Draco surely could.



Paulus Maximus - Oct 19, 2005 7:40 pm (#1298 of 1825)
Draco had a lot on his mind that night, though. Unfortunately, I can't remember if the book specifically says that Draco saw the brooms, but in the heat of the moment, they might not have registered.



wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2005 8:05 pm (#1299 of 1825)
Yes, actually Draco mentioned the two brooms, but DD rather adroitly moved the conversation on to another focus and Draco seemed to forget about the brooms. But if he thought back on all of the events on the tower, moment by moment (which people often to after traumatic events), then he probably remembered the 2nd broom.



Verbina - Oct 19, 2005 9:16 pm (#1300 of 1825)
I guess I was thinking that he may have thought he could get away with it because he not only let the deatheaters in but no one that survived or wasn't a Deatheater was on the tower. But as you said, he would know by now that someone else had been there to see it all. Of course, I wouldn't put it past Draco to try and discredit Harry the way Fudge did in OotP. Not with the paper but through his friends. Not that it would work of course but he would at least try I think.

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Soul Search - Oct 30, 2005 7:38 pm (#1301 of 1825)
Draco must have known that Harry was chasing he and Snape. Snape even fought a rear-guard action so Draco could reach the gates and get away.

Draco may not know exactly what Harry knows, but he has to figure Harry knows something, if not that Harry was on the tower.



wynnleaf - Oct 30, 2005 9:22 pm (#1302 of 1825)
I imagine once Draco gets a bit of time for some reflective thought, he'll remember the second broomstick and put that together with Harry chasing Severus. Yep, I think he'll figure it out pretty quickly.



Matt Allair - Nov 25, 2005 5:31 pm (#1303 of 1825)
You know, I recently came across an article that had a number of interesting points. John Granger is a Christian theologist who strongly defends Harry Potter and argues that she follows in the tradition of C.S Lewis and JRR Tolkien. I'd recommend checking out the entire article;

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But the points I thought was relevent for this thread, is the following. I'm a little surprised that this point hasn't been given much consideration. Quote;

Draco Really Does Deserve Your Pity, Myrtle

One such turn-your-thinking-upside-down post came from Mary Ailes, whose idea was supported immediately by Laura Lavrov (who had been working on parallel tracks simultaneously). Their theory is that the secret Moaning Myrtle won’t tell Ron and Harry about Draco isn’t his secret mission to kill Dumbledore or that he is a closet Death Eater. The secret she cannot tell them is that Draco is a werewolf.

Now, before you run from Myrtle’s bathroom hooting, run this scene through your mind’s eye again. We’re on the Astronomy Tower under the invisibility cloak and immobilized with Harry. Fenrir Greyback appears and the nasty man-wolf is picking Bill Weasley’s flesh out of his teeth. Dumbledore is disgusted that Greyback is eating human meat out of his season, tells him so, and adds, tellingly:

“And, yes, I am a little shocked that Draco here invited you, of all people, into the school where his friends live….”

“I didn’t,” breathed Malfoy. He was not looking at Fenrir; he did not seem to want to even glance at him. “I didn’t know he was going to come -“ (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 27, Scholastic p. 594)

Step back for a moment (watch the Tower edge…). Draco Malfoy has been working all year to kill Dumbledore with a certain disregard for the lives of anyone and everyone who might get in the way of his “Hail, Mary” shots at the greatest wizard living. Dumbledore knows this and does not confront Draco only because he fears Draco’s Occlumency is not good enough to shield himself from Lord Voldemort’s penetration.

Knowing that Malfoy is acting with bizarre disregard for the lives of his friends in the erratic attempts on Dumbledore’s life, why is the Headmaster “shocked” that Draco invited a werewolf into Hogwarts? I think the reasonable answer is the “Draco Wolfboy” theory, that Dumbledore knows Draco is a werewolf and that Fenrir Greyback bit him on the arm on the Dark Lord’s orders to punish his parents. Dumbledore had to make the arrangements with the Potions master to make the Wolfsbane Potion Draco would need to get through the year (a thought that Draco or Horace perhaps does not guard at the Christmas Party, which explains the look of fear on Severus the Legilimens’ face there).

Granger then points out Draco's appearance throughout the year, pale, haggard, sunken eyes. Constantly disapearing through the year. The assumption it's due to Draco's stress, but what if it's another reason.

Granger argues that Voldemort had Fenrir bite Draco over the summer as punishment for Lucius's failure in OOP. On a personal note; the Idea seems ironic because of the history of Malfoy's, when you consider the notion of the 'sins of the father visited on the son' and having that come back in spades.

Any thoughts on the idea?



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 25, 2005 10:10 pm (#1304 of 1825)
Matt wrote -- "Granger argues that Voldemort had Fenrir bite Draco over the summer as punishment for Lucius's failure in OOP. On a personal note; the Idea seems ironic because of the history of Malfoy's, when you consider the notion of the 'sins of the father visited on the son' and having that come back in spades."

I posted about Draco being bitten by Fenrir a month or so ago, and apparently it's a popular theory on other forums. Others think he was bitten by the vampire at Sluggy's Christmas party. But I like the werewolf idea. Some have argued that Kreacher and Dobby were "tailing" Draco and would have seen him transform, but it seems as though they only tail him for a week...not enough to rule out a full moon cycle. Also, we not only watch Draco grow pale, sickly like Lupin, but he displays terror of Fenrir on the tower.



Detail Seeker - Nov 26, 2005 4:03 pm (#1305 of 1825)
Had Fenrir bitten Draco, the latter would not have the need to feel terror from the presence of the former. Fenrir would be no danger to Draco anymore. A menace, that Fenrir might bite him, if he fails, explains the terror in his face much better.

The symptoms described fit well to a person in distress. Draco seems to have beeengiven a time intervall in which to finish his task- his sixth school year. And this was finishing mercilessly and he had not succeeded up to now. now wonder, he would sleep bad. So his outward appearance is not necessarily influenced by werewolf transformations, though the information we have does not contradict the assumption of having been trough them. But a werewolf transformation is not needed to explain the information we have.

So, I find it unlikely, that JKR would resort to making Draco a werewolf at this point of time. Later, after Draco´s failure, is another question.



Weeny Owl - Nov 26, 2005 9:27 pm (#1306 of 1825)
I agree with that, Detail Seeker, and would also add that it would seem unlikely that Draco would be his usual arrogant self on the train, and even later make remarks to Nott that they snickered over if he had something like that to face each month. He was looking worse for the wear at Slughorn's party, so I doubt if he would have been bitten over the holidays.

I think your comments about a person in distress work out much better, and most especially your idea that Grayback might be there to do something if Draco failed.



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 27, 2005 10:29 am (#1307 of 1825)
I should have posted this with the above:

A lot of my "research" into seeing Draco as a werewolf was because of his showing B&B shopowner (don't know which one he was) a mark on his arm. I couldn't believe JKR would make Draco a DE. So I thought of other things that could have been on his arm. A bite came to mind. However, since then I have read JKR saying Draco has the Dark Mark. So the werewolf theory, for me, is gone...



Solitaire - Nov 27, 2005 12:21 pm (#1308 of 1825)
Shadow, don't you think the scene on the train, where Draco is bragging to his buddies, makes the Dark Mark seem very plausible?

Solitaire



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 27, 2005 7:30 pm (#1309 of 1825)
Solitaire, yes I do but at first I really didn't think JKR would have made Draco get in that deep. But I suppose he can get out of it, as we are led to believe Snape did. And it's not like a werewolf bite is not "deep" trouble, too so I guess Draco's arm thing is the Dark Mark...



Solitaire - Nov 27, 2005 9:19 pm (#1310 of 1825)
Perhaps Draco's experience in getting in so deeply at such a young age mirrors the experiences of Snape and Regulus. Could they have joined the DEs as early as Draco did? Remember that Voldemort would have been at the height of his power at that time.

We know Snape had always craved the same respect and acknowledgement of his talents as the Marauders (especially Sirius and James), and he may have seen joining forces with Voldemort as a way to get it. As for Regulus ... he might possibly have felt as though he were under the shadow of his older and more dashing brother, Sirius. I realize this is total speculation, but just consider it ...

Suppose Regulus wanted to join the Order, too, but was considered too young. What better way to thumb his nose at Dumbledore--and garner the support and encouragement of his parents at the same time--than to join the other side ... the Death Eaters? Could he have possibly seen joining the DEs as a way to prove he was as worthy as Sirius ... only to realize too late that he'd been completely wrong?

Fast forward ... Draco has been jealous of Harry since he met him. He has craved the same kind of recognition that seems to follow Harry (totally unaware of the pain it has also brought). Alas, the same experiences were not in the cards for him. What if Draco (without Narcissa's prior knowledge) approached Voldemort, rather than the other way around--thereby dropping in his lap the perfect means for exacting revenge against Lucius for the debacle at the DoM? Being given the task of eliminating Dumbledore (assuming that was his task) would have been a plum too juicy for Draco to resist. If he succeeded--and, in the beginning, of course he believed he could--he would have done what even Voldemort had not achieved!

Pure speculation, I know ... but worth consideration, perhaps?

Solitaire



TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 27, 2005 9:26 pm (#1311 of 1825)
Am glad I wasn't the only one that thought that way. ;-)

...toddles off thinking of all the typing Soli saved me...



Solitaire - Nov 27, 2005 9:29 pm (#1312 of 1825)
LOL **glad Twinkles agrees with me** I'm glad I could save you some work, Twinkles!



frogface - Nov 28, 2005 2:36 am (#1313 of 1825)
I have no trouble believing that LV would make Draco a Death Eater. Its just like Harry said "Does anyone know what Voldemort would or wouldn't do?"



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 28, 2005 10:01 am (#1314 of 1825)
Solitaire, great post. I agree the jealousy thing is a strong factor in Draco's rash decision, and that neither of his parents are aware of it. I don't see Vold approaching Draco either (he's too important for that) but seizing the opportunity when Draco asked to meet with him possibly via Crabbe or Goyle's father...

Wow, it's really going to hit the fan when Narcissa finds out about the Mark. I still don't believe she has one. And given what we saw of her feelings in Spinner's End, I don't believe she wants her son that involved... I sure hope she dumps Lucius and high-tails it with Draco into Protection Program. Perhaps Snape will secretly be smuggling people out of the country, with DD orchestrating from the portrait (or France/Bulgaria...)



Weeny Owl - Nov 28, 2005 10:31 am (#1315 of 1825)
I'm one who believes that both Draco and Narcissa are Death Eaters.

Draco was all gung-ho at the end of OotP in getting revenge on Harry, and he was obviously thrilled at being able to do something to promote himself to Voldemort, and even on the tower, he was still annoyed with Snape for wanting the glory. He didn't care that he brought in Death Eaters to Hogwarts, he didn't care that he was planning on killing Dumbledore, and he still managed to call Hermione a Mudblood yet again. That he couldn't go through with killing Dumbledore doesn't mean that much to me. He can still do horrible things even if he couldn't kill a particular person, and as far as I'm concerned, even if Snape cast the spell that caused the death, it's still Draco who is responsible for it.

I can easily see Narcissa being a Death Eater as well. Her motivations to save Draco don't really mean that much to me either. She doesn't want her son involved, especially at sixteen, but her concerns aren't that there's a horrible creature causing calamity in the Wizarding World... her concerns are only for Draco.

Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore. Narcissa doesn't want Draco harmed. Those things doesn't make them good people or people willing to switch sides.



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 28, 2005 10:47 am (#1316 of 1825)
I don't have book but in HBP (Draco's Detour) when Harry and friends enter the robes shop, Madam Malkin and Narcissa are talking, saying something about it "not being safe". I'm sure Narcissa can play a good game, but it seemed interesting to me that JKR chose to put that little bit of conversation in there.

As for Draco's "badness", he seems like a typical bully with little conscience. However, when he sees his father get shunned by the very team he just joined, I think Draco will continue to be a coward and look for protection.

I definitely think Vold took him into DE's so he could punish Lucius. If Severus doesn't protect Draco, Draco is going down. Just like his mother thought.



Solitaire - Nov 28, 2005 5:41 pm (#1317 of 1825)
I can't see Voldemort rejecting anyone who offers service. After all, what does he care if the servant isn't particularly talented or messes up? When his loyal servants are no longer useful to have around him, he will get rid of them, just as he has done with his enemies. Is it possible that Lucius might have bit the dust if he hadn't been captured and sent to Azkaban?

Weeny, I happen to believe Narcissa is a DE, as well, for all of her motherly concern about Draco. I vacillate between her being sure he is a DE (based on her comments in the robe shop) and being unaware that he has actually taken the mark (based on his sneaking down to B&B and her plea to Snape for help). After all, Draco is a spoiled, whiney brat, and his remark to Madame Malkins about the pin could just be the typical thing he might say to anyone who was performing a service for him.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Nov 29, 2005 12:06 am (#1318 of 1825)
I agree wholeheartedly, Solitaire! Draco did say that Voldemort doesn't necessarily need a fully qualified wizard, and that what really counts is the service the person provided and the amount of devotion that Voldemort was shown (pardon me while I gag).

As to your next paragraph, I can sort of see that, Solitaire, but on the other hand...

I see Draco sneaking to Borgin and Burkes more to be resentment that his mother won't leave him alone to do what he has to do. She is sort of smothering him and he feels that since he's been given an assigment by Voldemort that he hardly needs his mommy to protect him.



Solitaire - Dec 3, 2005 10:44 am (#1319 of 1825)
If he does have the Mark and took it with her knowledge and consent, it seems peculiar for her to be so protective. Could he have approached Voldemort, taken the Dark Mark, and volunteered for the assignment without her consent ... and told her only after the fact?

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Dec 3, 2005 12:43 pm (#1320 of 1825)
Actually, I see it as her being even more protective of him if she knew because on the one hand, she knows his assigment and is scared that he'll be killed because of it either while attempting to perform it or by Death Eaters if he can't perform it. On the next hand, she would be fearful because she would know what happened during the first Voldie war, and that Aurors and Hit Wizards were allowed to kill people instead of capturing them, and she might be afraid that someone would cast a spell first and ask questions later.

Regardless of whether or not Narcissa is a Death Eater, she was married to one during the first Voldie war and would know the risks. She might feel that no matter what happens, Draco is between a rock and a hard place.



rambkowalczyk - May 8, 2006 6:44 am (#1321 of 1825)
Part of Draco's problem is that he can't handle being second best. In COS at Borgan and Burkes it looked as though Draco was number 2 after Hermione. Draco is an excellant Seeker but Harry is slightly better. Draco lost his chance to be Harry's best friend to Ron. When Draco doesn't get what he wants he blames other people instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.

In the tower scene I found it amusing that Dumbledore complimented Draco on his ingenuity in getting the Death Eaters into the castle. "yeah," said Malfoy, who bizarrely seemed to draw courage and comfort for Dumbledore's praise.

"Very gratifying," said Dumbledore mildly. "We all like appreciation for our own hard work, of course..."

This isn't to excuse Draco's behavior or past actions. (Dumbledore did admonish Draco not to use the term Mudblood.)

Draco was not the type of person to question assumptions like the one that say purebloods are always better than others even when faced with evidence that it wasn't true. He never questioned why people with non magical parents should not be in Hogwarts even though he probably would have had a lot of respect for Hermione if things were different. He never questioned whether Voldemort was doing the right thing not until Draco was forced to kill or be killed.



Magic Words - May 15, 2006 9:22 pm (#1322 of 1825)
Narcissa didn't strike me as being nearly as supportive of Voldemort as most DE's - I believe the contrast with Bellatrix was meant to show us that. Something may happen to her in the next book, or she may decide that seeking asylum with the Order is the only way to save Draco and herself. Lucius, on the other hand, is in too deep. He has too much invested in Voldemort to back out even if he wanted to.

I don't believe DD's offer of protection died with him. If Draco sought help from the Order, Harry would remember that he lowered his wand.

I've seen several posts pointing to Draco's use of the word "Mudblood" in the tower scene as evidence that he won't change sides. I think he will probably retain much of his old prejudice (even Slughorn was slightly prejudiced), but he will come to realize that supporting Voldemort and supporting blood purity are not the same thing at all. Voldemort is all about power; the blood issue is just a convenient recruiting tool. I imagine a scenario in which Voldemort punishes Lucius for failing to get the prophecy (possibly Crucio, possibly something worse) and Draco has to watch his father basically grovel for his life, and it finally gets through to Draco that whatever Voldemort claims his ideals are, the man is a lunatic and needs to be stopped, for Draco's own sake if no one else's.



Lilly P - May 16, 2006 7:39 am (#1323 of 1825)
I think that Draco will turn to the Order/Harry for help/protection of himself and mother. which will fullfill the sorting hats song re: the four houses uniting. If they can get Draco, then he is a powerfull recruting tool to get other slytherins to work together with the other houses. I beleive Draco has the possibility to be a powerfull catalyst for change.



Detail Seeker - May 16, 2006 1:33 pm (#1324 of 1825)
Lilly P., this would be too much of a "love, peace and happiness ever after" end for the story for my taste. At best, Draco / Narcissa will leave Voldemort becaue of feeling misused and let down and becoming a neutral party in this conflict. By this, other Slytherins may be neutralize in the conflict, too.

I feel, a total turnaround would be too p.c. But that´s just my two Knuts worth.



journeymom - May 16, 2006 2:01 pm (#1325 of 1825)
I see some merit to the idea as Draco as unifier. He can still be a obnoxious little ferret while he's at it. But at least since OotP one of the sub-themes has been the need for unification. I suppose it started at the end of GoF.

However, Draco is on the run. The school might not re open. He might not be able to do much unifying, even if he wants to.

The other Slytherin unifier is possibly Theodore Nott Jr. He's a small character that Jo thought enough of to comment on. "Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's."

But I'm getting side-tracked on to the topic of house unification theory...



Magic Words - May 16, 2006 2:22 pm (#1326 of 1825)
He may not become a die-hard supporter of the Order of the Phoenix, but I think Draco will change, and will help in uniting the houses.

I've often seen people comparing the trio to the Marauders and wondering who will be the equivalent of Peter Pettigrew. It's my belief that Draco Malfoy will play that role, but in reverse. Peter deserted his three best friends. In doing so, he reenacted in microcosm the split between Slytherin and the other three founders of Hogwarts. Peter has some definite Slytherin qualities - out only for himself, using any means, etc. I relate James, Sirius, and Lupin to Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw, respectively, and it was when they lost their Slytherin representative that things went seriously wrong for them (James dead, Sirius imprisoned). Harry, Ron, and Hermione pick up where the Marauders left off, with a Gryffindor, a Hufflepuff, and a Ravenclaw representative, but no Slytherin. I think that by accepting Malfoy (not necessarily as a great friend, but at least somewhat accepting him), they will symbolically come full circle, returning to a complete group of four, and this will mirror the return of Slytherin to its place in a unified Hogwarts.

Thank you. I've been looking for an opening to present that theory for a while....



virginiaelizabeth - May 16, 2006 5:34 pm (#1327 of 1825)
I really like that idea, I never thought of it that way before. If I had to place each of the trio in a differnt house, I'd put Harry in Gryfinndor, Ron in Hufflepuff, Hermione in Ravenclaw and that would leave Draco in Slytherin. I think its a great idea Magic Words.



haymoni - May 16, 2006 6:38 pm (#1328 of 1825)
JKR seems to hate Draco too much for him to turn good.

All her worry over the Tom Felton crushes, warning young girls not to go after the bad boys and such.



Soul Search - May 16, 2006 8:50 pm (#1329 of 1825)
I, too, think that Draco will play some sort of role that helps Harry, although I wouldn't go so far as "joining" the trio. His motivation, no doubt, will saving his own skin.

One problem, however, is Snape. At the end of HBP, Draco has to recognize Snape as firmly in the Voldemort camp. Draco will have to turn traitor to Snape to help Harry. Wonder how that will work out.



virginiaelizabeth - May 16, 2006 9:54 pm (#1330 of 1825)
I don't think that Draco will become best friends and join the trio, but I don't think he's evil-yet, he still has some of the innocence had when he was a kid. We just finished reading The Catcher in the Rye for english, and one of the major themes in the story is the loss of innocence as we grow up. Holden doesn't want his loved ones to grow up and become "phony" as they loose their innocence and blend into the world around them. I think the same can be said about Draco, he hasn't truly lost his innocence, in fact we've even seen taht he hasn't when he fails to kill Dumbledore, not because he's not capable, but because he is just a kid, and he doesn't really know what he's doing, and there is still so much for him to learn. Children may talk big, as Draco does, but really they are innocent. Children loose that as they grow older and as they begin to blend into society. If Draco continues down the path he has chosen, then he will loose all of that innocence through murder and immoral actions and then he can truly become a DE and have some evil in him. My point is that he's not a lost cause yet, Draco is not a true DE,and he still has the chance to do as DD advised, and "come over to the right side" and I believe DD was right, he is not a killer, yet if he continues the way he's been going, he very well could be and then he will loose his innocence,and all hope will be lost for him. I think he still has the chance to switch sides,and that doesn't mean he has to become best friends with HRH, because I don't think that will ever happen, but he can still learn the difference between what is right and what is wrong. he's old enough to make his own decisions and he may switch over to what he feels is truly right, not what everyone around him thinks is right.



Weeny Owl - May 17, 2006 1:26 am (#1331 of 1825)
One thing I believe is important is that just because Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore doesn't mean that much in the basic scheme of things. Draco is still nasty, prejudiced, willing to use Unforgivable Curses... let me stop a moment because while Harry has either used or tried to use the same curse, those moments weren't in a school lavatory, but rather in a battle-type situation. That doesn't mean Harry should be using them, but the situations were different.

...back to Draco:

...willing to use Unforgivable Curses when it wasn't a matter of life and death during a battle, but rather because a fellow student had seen him crying.

Draco hasn't changed. He reminds me of people during World War II who sneaked around in the background (sort of like Wormtail, actually), and who tried to get out of any war crimes tribunals.

Draco is the same person who stomped on Harry's face. He's still the same person who faked an injury to get a hippogriff executed. He's still the same person who delighted in joining Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad.

He might do something to save his own neck, but I do see him as a lost cause. He doesn't have his father's... fear? fervor? ... but he's still firmly in the Death Eaters and Voldemort winning the war so long as he doesn't have to pay a price.



frogface - May 17, 2006 3:25 am (#1332 of 1825)
This is one of the few occasions where I disagree with you Weeny. I can't bring myself to assume Draco is a "lost cause" when he lowered his wand to Dumbledore. Sure he almost certainly did it out of fear but later on in the book Harry remembers this. Having Harry remembering Draco lowering his wand is, in my opinion, JKR underlining that Draco isn't a murderer yet. Until he actually kills someone, I'll still have a small amount of hope for him.



haymoni - May 17, 2006 3:57 am (#1333 of 1825)
Draco is in it up to his neck now, regardless of how he felt on the Tower.

The DEs busting in on him & Dumbledore sealed his fate.

The only person willing to help him, the only person he was willing to even CONSIDER listening to was Dumbledore and he is (supposedly) dead.

He's stuck like Wormtail.

I could see him in a situation where he is alone facing Harry. Harry reminds him of what Dumbledore was willing to do for him and how he saw Draco lower his wand. He could remind him that everything that has happened to Draco is Voldemort's fault.

In a moment of hesitation, considering his options, Draco could lose his life - either from an Order member, an Auror or a Death Eater.



Laura W - May 17, 2006 5:18 am (#1334 of 1825)
Thank you very much for your post 1331, Weeny Owl. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who (still) hated Draco.

I had a real problem - just *one* of my problems with book six - with the way Draco went from totally unsympathetic character for five and half books to someone the reader should feel sorry for during that bathroom scene in HBP. I didn't buy it.

I know we are supposed to see some kind of new, reformed Draco who is only carrying out Voldemort's orders because V threatened his family. I know that is canon, but I think it goes against the character and personality of the boy we have known as being one way for the whole series. This new, improved, sympathetic Draco Malfoy both bothered me and is something I see as a weakness in the book.

I think the real 16-year-old DM would have been extremely proud to have been picked to carry out an important task by the wizard his father and other of his relatives revered. (And we don't know yet whether he is a full Death Eater yet, do we? He may - as Harry suspects - already possess the Dark Mark. Or not.) He would not need the threat of harm to his family.

To me, Draco is very much his father's son (ie - racist, cruel, cowardly, opportunistic). You might think Jo hates him too much to give him redemption, haymoni. *I* think she has already given him far more slack (which, in my opinion, goes against everything we know about him) in book six than he deserves. Obviously, I hate him more than she does. For all the reasons, Weeny so accurately outlined, plus a few more.

I KNOW that dungbombs are to follow, so I shall now put on my dragonskin raincoat. (grin)

Laura



rambkowalczyk - May 17, 2006 5:53 am (#1335 of 1825)
I am not sure we have a reformed Draco. All Dumbledore made him do in the story was questions his beliefs. The answers to his questions may not change him all that much.

He still has his family's prejudices and they aren't going to change as a result of one conversation. He will always believe he is better than everyone else as a result of being a pure blood. What might change is his willingness to keep his opinions to himself in order to defeat Voldemort. If he sees Voldemort as someone who destroys pure blood families, he may be willing to make a temporary alliance.



haymoni - May 17, 2006 6:20 am (#1336 of 1825)
I don't think the conversation changed him either, but when he was crying to Myrtle, he said things were hopeless.

Dumbledore offered him a way out.



LooneyLuna - May 17, 2006 6:53 am (#1337 of 1825)
At first in HBP, Draco is proud that he has exclusive orders from Voldemort. He is his old self, he brags and has his hangers-on, he catches Harry and stomps on his face. All shades of the usual Draco.

By the time we see Draco crying to Myrtle, he has isolated himself. He has his orders and is having trouble carrying them out. He no longer cares about school or school issues. He doesn't even care about his rival, Harry. He's afraid of what will happen if he fails. Time is running out. Voldemort didn't give Draco any choice in the matter. On the Tower, Dumbledore restored choices for Draco. I don't think he'll forget that anytime soon.

And while I also think Draco will not be fully redeemed, he will be forced to make a choice between what is easy and what is right. I feel that he will choose what is right. But only because choosing what is right will be in his best interests.

If that makes any sense....toddles off for tea at St. Mungos.



haymoni - May 17, 2006 7:00 am (#1338 of 1825)
I wondered why Draco didn't do more to Harry when he found him on the train.



LooneyLuna - May 17, 2006 7:06 am (#1339 of 1825)
I wondered that too. Harry was completely defenseless. And it's interesting that Draco did not use his wand. He preferred to get physical.

Maybe it was to show that Draco is still a kid. If an adult DE had Harry in the same situation, the outcome would have been different.



Solitaire - May 17, 2006 7:27 am (#1340 of 1825)
I tend to line up with Weeny and Laura. I really do not see Draco becoming any sort of unifying force. He might come crying to the Order for asylum for himself and his mother, but I believe he is too selfish to worry about his cohorts.

As a teacher, I have watched lots of kids break down when they finally realize they are in a situation in which they are doomed. When a kid looks out the office door and sees the sheriff ready to escort him to juvenile hall for his latest offense, he often becomes very contrite, apologizing, begging for another chance, etc. Once the storm has blown over, however, most of the kids who have reached this point gradually fall back into their old ways. For some, it is almost immediate.

I do believe Draco got in over his head this time. I do not think he understood what was being asked of him. But I am also not sure he has the strength of character to do an about-face and admit that he was wrong and he misjudged his ability to do the kinds of things required of him. This might be his undoing. If he does finally turn around, it will probably be too late. I do not see him coming out of this whole thing alive, but that is JM2K on the situation.

Solitaire



Dobby Socks - May 17, 2006 7:42 am (#1341 of 1825)
I agree with Weeny Owl and Laura W. I must admit that I did feel a pang of sympathy for Draco when he was crying in the bathroom (before he threw the Crucio.) But one of the things I hate most in our world and in the Wizarding World is racism and bigotry. Throughout the series Draco has been the child character who epitomizes these views.

Whether or not Draco is able to kill is a separate issue from his general capacity for cruelty, in my opinion. If he is unable to follow LV’s instructions, and can’t deal with the Unforgiveables, good for him. But, until he is able to overcome his extreme opinions regarding blood status, I won’t consider him reformed. Yes, he did pick this up from his parents, but he needs to start thinking for himself. And not just about the implications of becoming a DE, but also about his personal prejudices.

I’ve always despised him and his father, and it would take a drastic alteration of their personalities for me to excuse their past behavior.



Magic Words - May 17, 2006 7:55 am (#1342 of 1825)
I think we mustn't overlook Snape's potential influence on Draco from this point on in the series. Soul Search mentioned that it could be a problem because Draco thinks Snape is on LV's side, and to switch would be to betray him as well as LV. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. I see Snape as being in an ideal position to nudge Draco around to a better way of thinking. Draco can trust him because of the Vow (which may still be in effect) and it's in Snape's best interests for Draco to be safe, and obviously he'd be safer with the Order. Draco would also be more likely to listen and think about what Snape has to say, because he won't start out assuming that Snape is trying to convince him to change sides.



Catherine - May 17, 2006 8:10 am (#1343 of 1825)
I think that Belletrix's distrust of Snape probably carried over to Draco.

I must say that I do not see Draco as a potential unifier.

I wonder what effect seeing Dumbledore' murder by Snape will have on Draco? Perhaps he will not feel the need to keep secrets from Snape now.



Dobby Socks - May 17, 2006 8:12 am (#1344 of 1825)
"Draco would also be more likely to listen and think about what Snape has to say, because he won't start out assuming that Snape is trying to convince him to change sides." -Magic Words

Good point. Snape has also been his favorite teacher (until HBP), and is close to his family. And, on top of that he's a half-blood. However, I still think Draco's got a long way to go.



Steve Newton - May 17, 2006 9:48 am (#1345 of 1825)
Harry has to unify the Houses. The only Slytherin's currently in the running seem to be Draco and Blaise.



Weeny Owl - May 17, 2006 10:16 am (#1346 of 1825)
If he sees Voldemort as someone who destroys pure blood families, he may be willing to make a temporary alliance.

I can see him doing that, as long as it's a temporary thing and is of benefit to him. I just cannot see him suddenly seeing the light, as it were, and switching sides because he's had an epiphany.

And while I also think Draco will not be fully redeemed, he will be forced to make a choice between what is easy and what is right. I feel that he will choose what is right. But only because choosing what is right will be in his best interests.

That's basically how I see it.

I tend to line up with Weeny and Laura. I really do not see Draco becoming any sort of unifying force. He might come crying to the Order for asylum for himself and his mother, but I believe he is too selfish to worry about his cohorts.

Nods in agreement.

Whether or not Draco is able to kill is a separate issue from his general capacity for cruelty, in my opinion. and I’ve always despised him and his father, and it would take a drastic alteration of their personalities for me to excuse their past behavior.

Most definitely on both points.

I don't hate Draco. I think there's the ability to change in most people, but it's a long and drawn-out process. It isn't the result of one interaction with one person during a rather dramatic scene. Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore. That is a good thing, yes, but it still doesn't change his belief system or suddently make him a saint. He couldn't kill, yet he was more than willing to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. That proves that he has the capacity to commit horrid acts even if he can't commit the ultimate horrid act.

Remember, too, that Draco is a Slytherin. Phineus said that Slytherins will always save their own necks given the chance. Draco was about to be given the chance, and while I don't see him as anywhere near as awful as his father, I do see him grabbing the chance to save himself and his family since it would be a Slytherin trait.

Draco strikes me as the type who, using the American justice system, would accept a plea-bargain so that he wouldn't go to prison, but it wouldn't mean a change of heart or that he was doing anything for the good of others. It also doesn't mean that he would be truly repentant or even let the idea that he was wrong slip into his thought processes.

I think there's a minute chance Draco could honestly change his ways... maybe a half of one-percent chance, but that's only if he is no longer influenced by his parents and his peers.

I didn't have a problem with JKR showing us a more sympathetic side to Draco. It fits with his personality, and aside from that, it makes him a more realistic character in this war.

Wars are rarely fought by people who have altruistic motives for seeing one side win over the other. There are people involved who will do what it takes to see their side win, but as Sirius said, at one point the Ministry was using methods that were as bad as what the Death Eaters do. Now we've been shown that one teenage boy has been put in a position where it's do or die, and he just doesn't want to die. It makes sense that JKR would show us that.



Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 10:26 am (#1347 of 1825)
I think that Belletrix's distrust of Snape probably carried over to Draco - Catherine

While I agree that in the conversation Harry overhears between Draco and Snape, it seems as though Draco distrusts Snape, and that this distrust probably stems from Bella, I also think that after the tower scene, any distrust Draco may have been harboring for Snape is gone. Snape saved Draco. He killed DD for him, and I don't think Draco can say it was so that Sanpe could get the glory, but rather that Snape was trying to get it over with so that they could get Draco safetly from the castle.

On the other hand, I think that if Snape were to "nudge" Draco too hard towards the Order, all that distrust he had will come flooding back and he could easily reject Snape and run back to Bella. This could not only ruin any possibility of Draco's redemption, but also ruin Snape's cover and put him and the Order in danger. I think Snape will probably see this and not try too hard to convert Draco, but rather, assuming school opens again and Draco is allowed to come back (remember, the only one besides the DE's who know Draco attempted to kill DD is Harry, so Draco may not be a wanted fugative)Snape may rely on people like McGonagall and the trio to try and turn Draco. It may be harder for them then for Snape, but I think it's clear throughout OotP and HBP that Snape's position as a DE is more important then most other things.

JM2K

-Jenn



journeymom - May 17, 2006 11:08 am (#1348 of 1825)
"Snape saved Draco. He killed DD for him, and I don't think Draco can say it was so that Sanpe could get the glory, but rather that Snape was trying to get it over with so that they could get Draco safetly from the castle. "

This got me thinking, and it occured to me that Snape did NOT take the opportunity to 'hold it over' Dd when he came upon him on the tower. He didn't do the bad guy 'monologue' that Syndrome refers to in The Incredibles. He could have said something like, "Ah ha, Dd! At last the tables are turned and you can't order me around anymore! Take that!" He simply did the deed (whatever he really did) and fled with Draco. But that's all I'll say, as anymore of this belongs on the Snape thread.

"(remember, the only one besides the DE's who know Draco attempted to kill DD is Harry, so Draco may not be a wanted fugative)" No, don't all the members of the Order know? Is that just a big assumption of mine? Ron and Hermione know.



Soul Search - May 17, 2006 11:38 am (#1349 of 1825)
This talk of Draco, somehow, helping to unify the Hogwarts' houses has got me to thinking, generally, about "unification."

The Sorting Hat introduced the concept of unification in OotP, expressing that it would be needed. Nick added a bit more information with historical comments, but no details. Yet, since the Hat's song, nothing much has happened.

I don't think that mere numbers of students are what will be needed; my thoughts are that the students of each Hogwart's House have different natures and skills, and it is the aggregate skills that will be important.

The uncertain part of unification seems to be Slytherin House. The other houses don't seem much of a problem. The other three houses participated in the DA and there is some cross-house dating. Unification wouldn't meet a lot of resistance.

Slytherins may have a problem with taking any risks, unified or not. It would have to be in their interests.

I infer the following from the Sorting Hat's OotP song:

Something will happen at Hogwarts that will require united houses to overcome.

Someone will serve to bring Slytherins into a united fold. My candidates are: Harry, Slughorn, or Hermione (like SPEW.) Could be more than one.
I don't see any way that Draco can help with unification, since he can't return to Hogwarts. While only a few know of his acts on the tower, most know that he let in the DEs, so must take responsibility for all that happened. Draco left with Snape; not a good recommendation.

He is, I am sure, a full-fledged Death Eater, with dark mark on his arm and all. And, let's not forget, Trelawney has been kidnapped.



Catherine - May 17, 2006 11:49 am (#1350 of 1825)
He is, I am sure, a full-fledged Death Eater, with dark mark on his arm and all. And, let's not forget, Trelawney has been kidnapped.--Soul Search

Um, where did Trelawney get kidnapped? This sounds like fanfiction to me.

I suppose if Draco is really nasty, he could always claim that Snape kidnapped him after Snape murdered Dumbledore.

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1351 to 1400

Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 2:33 am

Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 11:58 am (#1351 of 1825)
No, don't all the members of the Order know? Is that just a big assumption of mine? Ron and Hermione know. - journeymom

You're right. I had quite forgotten that part of the hospital scene where Harry tells everyone how the DE's got into the castle. I was just remembering that all he ever told them about DD's actual murder was that it was Snape. But he did then tell everyone in the hospital wing that it was Draco who let the DE's into the castle, so even if they don't know it was Draco who originally tried to kill DD (they probably do by now though!) they still know he helped the DE's get in and that's got to be enough to never let him set foot inside Hogwarts again! I apologize for my oversight, but as I'm at work most of the time that I'm posting, I don't have my books around to check things and must go by memory!!

And, let's not forget, Trelawney has been kidnapped - Soul Search WHAT!!! Did I miss something?!? When do we find out Trelawney was kidnapped? I've been away from the forum for awhile recently so I'm really sorry if my moment of panic is unjustified or if this topic has become a major theory or canon in my absence, but I'm really confused!!

-Jenn

EDIT: Cross-posted with Catherine. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one confused by this.



Soul Search - May 17, 2006 12:10 pm (#1352 of 1825)
Catherine, Soul Mate for Sirius,

Trelawney being kidnapped was well discussed on the Trelawney topic. Enough that it is almost a certainty, at least in my judgement.

Strongest cannon is that Trelawney was outside the RoR, where the DEs emerged, when Harry went to see Dumbledore and she hasn't been seen since, including Dumbledore's funeral.

It has even been suggested that Voldmeort, being obsessed with hearing the whole prophecy, made kidnapping Trelawney Draco's original task. Why else would Draco need the cabinets: to take Trelawney out of the castle.



Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 12:14 pm (#1353 of 1825)
Soul Search, thanks for the clerifications. Not being a huge fan of Trelawney, I rarely venture into her thread. But, I think I may like this theory so I'll have to start reading it more often!

-Jenn



Catherine - May 17, 2006 12:20 pm (#1354 of 1825)
Trelawney being kidnapped was well discussed on the Trelawney topic. Enough that it is almost a certainty, at least in my judgement.--Soul Search

Now I see that this is a theory. I suppose Book 7 will settle the matter. I would be careful, though, about stating theory as fact, as it may confuse people.

It certainly is not canon at present, although you will have earned the right to crow loudly if it proves true!



Weeny Owl - May 17, 2006 12:25 pm (#1355 of 1825)
Strongest cannon is that Trelawney was outside the RoR, where the DEs emerged, when Harry went to see Dumbledore and she hasn't been seen since, including Dumbledore's funeral.

Not that I want to discuss her, but she wasn't exactly outside the Room of Requirement. She and Harry were on their way to Dumbledore's office, and while I think the Room of Requirement and Dumbledoor's office are on the same floor, I'm not so sure they're that close. Also, the timing is off for it to be a done deal. It's possible that was Draco's objective, but it's by no means a concrete fact.

As for Draco returning to Hogwarts, it's possible but it seems unlikely to me.

Granted, Harry is the only witness to what happened on the tower, but there are a few more witnesses to Draco leading the Death Eaters into the school. Even if the powers that be want to ignore the testimony of school children, there are enough adults present to see Draco with the Death Eaters and not being hexed by them or trying to hex them.



Catherine - May 17, 2006 12:36 pm (#1356 of 1825)
It has even been suggested that Voldmeort, being obsessed with hearing the whole prophecy, made kidnapping Trelawney Draco's original task. Why else would Draco need the cabinets: to take Trelawney out of the castle. --Soul Search

I thought the cabinets were the means Draco used to bypass Hogwarts security and allow the Death Eaters access into the castle.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Weeny Owl ::waves::



Holly T. - May 17, 2006 1:46 pm (#1357 of 1825)
If Draco's task was to kidnap Trelawney, why did he push her out of the Room of Requirement? If that was his task he could have just grabbed her then and sent her on to Bourgin's shop without anyone noticing.



Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 2:07 pm (#1358 of 1825)
Holly brings up a good point. We are given the impression through Harry's interaction with her on his way to DD's office that Trelawney has been drinking again. Not to mention that we have yet to see her do any "wand magic" besides maybe lighting the fire in her class room. I can imagine she'd be an easy person for Draco to over-power and throw into the Vanishing Cabinent if he wanted to!

-Jenn



Weeny Owl - May 17, 2006 2:20 pm (#1359 of 1825)
That is an excellent point, Holly.

I'm not absolutely certain Draco's original task was to kill Dumbledore, but at this point no one knows for sure except JKR.

Since Draco was so thrilled with getting the Vanishing Cabinet to work, it could be that his task was to help Death Eaters into the castle, and from there they would help him in killing Dumbledore. Regardless of what Draco's task was, on the tower it sure seemed as if the objective was Dumbledore's death.

::waving to Catherine::



virginiaelizabeth - May 17, 2006 2:52 pm (#1360 of 1825)
Ok sorry I'm going back a little bit, I have 26 post to catch up on this afternoon!

Remember, too, that Draco is a Slytherin. Phineus said that Slytherins will always save their own necks given the chance. Draco was about to be given the chance, and while I don't see him as anywhere near as awful as his father, I do see him grabbing the chance to save himself and his family since it would be a Slytherin trait.Weany Owl

I have to disagree here, if Slytherin's always choose to save thier own necks, then I think that he would have killed DD. If he hadn't, then Voldemort would have killed him and his family, yet he did not do that, it may have been out of fear, but when you look back on the scene, Draco had plenty of time alone do save his own neck form Voldemort's wrath, yet he chose not to do it. He had the chance to do it, Dumbledore was unarmed, yet he didn't save his own neck, and I think that says something about Draco's ture beliefs, and I think it shows he doesn't have the mental strength to take the life of another.

Just in general, I like that Jo showed us the "softer" side of Draco in HBP. It shows him as a more realistic character in the story. We have always seen Draco as a foul, mean person, but I think that there is a difference between evil and mean. Draco has been mean throughout the entire series, but not evil. He has always been a big bragger and show-off, but these are the vaules that he was taught growing up, which is why he is the way he is. Throughout HBP, we saw Draco grow in many ways. He starts off in the train, as the foul loathsome, evil little cockroach, but as the story progresses, he becomes more isolated, the pressure of preforming his task is starting to overwhelm him, and I'm sure he questioned numerous times, whether or not he felt like the task was worth it, or if it was morally right. He puts on a brave face, and tries to hide how he is feeling, which we have never seen before because Draco has never been in this kind of a situation, so we can't say that he wouldn't act that way. Just because he was brought up one way, doesn't mean he can't learn right from wrong. He is older now, and he may always be a mean person, but that doesn't mean he will always follow the exact same beliefs that his parents taught him. As for the bathroom scene and the cruciatus curse, (not that this is an excuse for his actions,I'm not trying to defend him) but he was in an extremely stressful situation,a nd his worst enemy just witnessed him at his lowest point ever, and that can be pretty embarassing, so he reacted to it, even though his reation was wrong and evil, it was probably the only thing that, at least to him, would would be bad enough for Harry. Sorta like when you get really mad at your teacher because were extremely unfair to you, and the only thing in your mind that can justify it is to scream and say some things you shouldn't and sometimes to get physical and just want to hurt them really badly.(not that this example is anything compared to what Draco did, it's just me trying to out it in a situation that we can all relate to.)



Magic Words - May 17, 2006 5:50 pm (#1361 of 1825)
I think there's a minute chance Draco could honestly change his ways... maybe a half of one-percent chance, but that's only if he is no longer influenced by his parents and his peers. - Weeny Owl

I give him a much greater chance than half a percent, because I think that's pretty much what will happen. Draco's father is in Azkaban, so no influence there. Now that Draco's a full member of the DE's he's going to see how they interact with each other and with Voldemort and how they live in constant fear of Voldemort's wrath. So his new peers will have some influence, but I think they're just as likely to make him reject Voldemort as support him. Of the two people with the most influence on Draco, Snape and Narcissa, one (most likely) wants Voldemort gone and the other certainly has no great love for him either, since he tried to kill Draco.

Again, when I say Draco will "change his ways" I don't mean he'll transfer to Gryffindor and marry a Muggle-born. I mean he will remain his self-centered, bigoted, Slytherin self and make the conscious decision that having Voldemort in power is in fact a very bad idea. Of course, I certainly hope that once he makes that decision, it will open him up to the idea that maybe the Order isn't always wrong about everything, maybe he should give them a chance, maybe working alongside Muggle-borns isn't such a horrible thing after all.... but if he does start to think that way, it will be a slow process, and there's no way the turnaround will be complete by the end of book 7. I just want to finish the series feeling that there's hope, and maybe he's moving in the right direction.



virginiaelizabeth - May 17, 2006 9:27 pm (#1362 of 1825)
I don't mean he'll transfer to Gryffindor and marry a Muggle-born. I mean he will remain his self-centered, bigoted, Slytherin self and make the conscious decision that having Voldemort in power is in fact a very bad idea. - Magic Words

This I totally agree with, its what I was trying to say in my last post, but as yall can probably see, I got a bit wordy with it so it wasn't this clear.



Weeny Owl - May 17, 2006 11:21 pm (#1363 of 1825)
if Slytherin's always choose to save thier own necks, then I think that he would have killed DD.

At the moment Draco was in no danger. Later, granted, he probably would have been and may still be, but while Dumbledore was talking to him, he was safe.

Slytherins do save their own necks, according to what Phineas said, and since he was not only a Slytherin but also Headmaster, he probably is a good authority on the subject.

I don't think Draco is going to survive. He's either going to be eaten by a hippogriff after being turned into a ferret or he's just going to annoy the wrong person at the wrong time with his holier-than-thou attitude.

Even in the tower, he didn't lose his arrogance, his "I'm superior to everyone" attitude, or his prejudice.

I just cannot fathom Draco doing anything for the ultimate good unless it directly benefits himself, and then, after he's saved, I could see him double-crossing his benefactor.

Draco seems to me to be the type who wants the world handed to him regardless of what it takes, but he doesn't want to get his hands dirty or even really know the dirty details. He thought he was too good to have to go into the Forbidden Forest, and if he could have gotten out of it he would have.

He's learning that his father's cohorts and Voldemort expect people to get down and dirty, and he hasn't quite accepted that fact. JKR said that Draco was good at talking the talk, but he's finding it quite different when he's expected to walk the walk.

I just do not see anything about him that could make me believe that he'll ever be anything but another cringing, whinging Wormtail-type.



frogface - May 18, 2006 4:24 am (#1364 of 1825)
Draco was in danger from Voldemort, and possibly the other Death Eaters if he didn't kill Dumbledore. But he did still lower his wand.

It seems certain that no one expects Draco to turn into a Saint over night, and I'm in agreement. But it seems that we're split in to one group who still see hope for him and one group who don't. I personally still have some hope for him to find a way to do the right thing. We're shown a small redeeming quality in the Malfoy's in that they clearly do seem to love each other -At least Narcissa and Draco seem to love each other - and I think that should be acknowledged.



Weeny Owl - May 18, 2006 5:55 am (#1365 of 1825)
He didn't lower his wand because he realized what he was doing was wrong. He lowered his wand only because he was considering Dumbledore's idea. It was still a matter of how it would benefit him and not an epiphany about the wrongs the Death Eaters and Voldemort are doing in the Wizarding World.

While love is nice, it doesn't always mean much outside of those specific relationships. After all, some of the most horrid and sadistic Nazis were married, had children, and were reported to be loving and kind husbands and fathers. Being loving to family doesn't automatically mean that someone is going to be a good and kind person outside of that specific circle.

After all, Hitler was said to love his German Shepherd.

Please understand that I'm not saying Draco is the epitome of evil. I see him more as weak. He's been overly indulged his whole life, told that he's superior to most people, and he's been indoctrinated in his belief system from birth. Those things wouldn't be easy to overcome. I just don't feel Draco has the strength or desire to change. He doesn't want to be killed or have his family killed, but that doesn't mean that he's going to turn into the next Pollyanna either.

He seems to be the type of person who would rather complain about how many lemons life is handing him and expect someone else to make his lemonade for him than to pick himself up by his bootstraps and do something about it.



Catherine - May 18, 2006 6:23 am (#1366 of 1825)
He seems to be the type of person who would rather complain about how many lemons life is handing him and expect someone else to make his lemonade for him than to pick himself up by his bootstraps and do something about it. --Weeny Owl

I agree. Draco is a whiner, and I am thinking of the first time Harry met him, Draco reminded him strongly of Dudley. In many ways, I believe that Draco has been indulged by Narcissa just as Petunia over-indulges Dudley.



frogface - May 18, 2006 7:03 am (#1367 of 1825)
I didn't say that love made him a good person, I just said it was a redeeming quality.

We can't be sure of the reason for Draco lowering his wand anyway, because we aren't shown the scene from Draco's point of view. While I agree that its more likely he did it for his own sake, that isn't canon. Its still quite likely in my opinion that he did it as much to save Lucius and Narcissa as he did it to save himself. Dumbledore offered to protect them to if I remember correctly.



Soul Mate for Sirius - May 18, 2006 8:34 am (#1368 of 1825)
I always saw Draco's lowering of his wand as somewhat the same response as Petunia's change of heart after DD's Howler in the beginning of OotP. While Petunia has always been mean, if not down-right abusive towards Harry, DD's Howler made her stop and think, and, as much as she resents having Harry and seems to hate him, she let him stay. He is still her sister's son, and for that matter, a human being. Yes, there may have been some selfish motivations there too (the Dursley's may find themselves in danger without Harry there) but I believe it was also out of respect for human life, expecailly that of her nephew.

I see Draco's reaction on the tower as very similar. In the heat of the moment, with the DE's in the castle, Draco was ready to kill. But when he and DD were finally face to face and DD gave him another option, I feel that his respect for human life in general won out. Yes, there may have been selfish reasons for lowering his wand. He was most likely considering DD's offer, only to save himself and his parents, but I think that all that other option did was show Draco a way to get out of murdering DD, because he didn't really want to kill at all. Just like the Howler reminded Petunia that kicking Harry out of the house wasn't the only option, nor the best way to protect her family from danger. All the Howler did was show Petunia another way to keep her family out of danger while still showing some (albeit very little) respect for Harry's life.

Okay, I know that was REALLY long winded, and I hope it makes sense!!

-Jenn



Weeny Owl - May 18, 2006 9:18 am (#1369 of 1825)
In a way it is canon since he didn't lower his wand until after an offer had been made. When I said he did it for his own sake, I was also including his parents since the way Dumbledore phrased it, it was pretty much a package deal. Plus, having his parents together would sort of be for his own sake.



Magic Words - May 18, 2006 9:35 am (#1370 of 1825)
That's a really good point, Soul Mate for Sirius. When we say that Draco considered Dumbledore's offer in order to save himself, we're forgetting that from Draco's point of view, killing Dumbledore would also be saving himself because it would please Voldemort. So either Draco is already looking into the long-term and realizing that he doesn't want to serve Voldemort, or he'd prefer a way of saving himself that did not involve killing someone else.



Die Zimtzicke - May 18, 2006 10:21 am (#1371 of 1825)
I've always thought Draco was a great character,and I was glad to see him become more complex in HbP. A lot of fans were ready to discard him as Voldemort became Harry's true nemesis, not Draco, but then we got a book with no Voldemort and lots of Draco. What a surprise!

One of the reasons I really think Dumbledore is dead is that I know he wasn't afraid of death, and would rather have died than see Snape and Draco die, which I think is almost a certainty if the task had failed. When Dumbledore was seeing those horrible visions, I think it was of his students suffering. Where Draco is now and what happens now that he is gone will be very interesting. I hope Snape is still protecting him. I think he is. If not, he can always go live in the toilet with Myrtle instead of Harry! I have no doubt she'd be glad to see him. LOL!

I just plowed through the whole thread (don't ask how long it took) and one thing struck me. Before the book, there were so many interesting theories. Now that we have all had plenty of time to give it more thought, which ones do you all regret the most not happening? For me, I think it was the one about the room under the Malfoy's drawing room floor being important. I wish that had been mentioned again.



haymoni - May 18, 2006 11:54 am (#1372 of 1825)
Now THERE's a 'ship - Draco & Myrtle - both ghosts, both in the toilet.



Soul Mate for Sirius - May 18, 2006 12:30 pm (#1373 of 1825)
Die, I agree about wanting the Malfoy's secret room to be important. I can't remember, did Ron ever actually tell Arthur about the room in CoS? The reason I'm asking is, I know that Arthur told Harry in HBP that he raided the Malfoy's house again and found nothing illegal or dangerous (or did the trio read that in the Daily Prophet? Darn it I wish I had my books!!) If Ron hadn't told him about the secret room, then the raid would have been for nothing, because surely that's where Lucius keeps his Dark Arts stuff (Draco tells us this in CoS) and so the room may still play a role in Book 7. (Perhaps our favorite DE family has yet ANOTHER Horcrux in their posession?)

-Jenn



haymoni - May 18, 2006 1:05 pm (#1374 of 1825)
I wondered about that too.

When Arthur says they found nothing - did they actually find the room and there was nothing in it or were they UNABLE to find the room?

I'm guessing that if you can make a whole house unplottable, blah, blah, blah - you could hide a trap door.

Unless that room was Voldy's hideout, I really don't know what purpose that room would serve.



Catherine - May 18, 2006 1:28 pm (#1375 of 1825)
I'm guessing that if you can make a whole house unplottable, blah, blah, blah - you could hide a trap door.

Or plop a three-headed dog named Fluffy on top.



haymoni - May 18, 2006 1:29 pm (#1376 of 1825)
I'm guessin' even the Ministry of Magic could spot Fluffy!!!



virginiaelizabeth - May 18, 2006 2:04 pm (#1377 of 1825)
I always saw Draco's lowering of his wand as somewhat the same response as Petunia's change of heart after DD's Howler in the beginning of OotP. While Petunia has always been mean, if not down-right abusive towards Harry, DD's Howler made her stop and think, and, as much as she resents having Harry and seems to hate him, she let him stay. He is still her sister's son, and for that matter, a human being. Yes, there may have been some selfish motivations there too (the Dursley's may find themselves in danger without Harry there) but I believe it was also out of respect for human life, expecailly that of her nephew.- Soul Mate fore Sirius

This is how I feel too. I don't think that Draco had a revalation up there on the tower. He's had lots of time to think about what his future would be if he killed Dumbledore and serves Voldemort, but he has also had time to think about what it would be like if he didn't kill Dumbledore and didn't serve Voldemort. I think he realizes that either outcome is not what he wants, and this is why he hesitates up on the tower, but finally comes to the conclusion that Voldemort's wrath will be worse, and that he has to do it for his family, but I think he does respect Dumbledore, you don't need to like someone to respect them, and he respects the fact that he will be taking the life of another human being and he doesn't really want to do that, but feels like there's no way out, so when Dumbledore gives him this way out, he lowers his wand because it will not only help him( I do think there is selfishness there) but it will also stop him from doing something that he may regret later on.



Solitaire - May 18, 2006 5:00 pm (#1378 of 1825)
Um, where did Trelawney get kidnapped? This sounds like fanfiction to me. Thank you, Catherine. I thought I'd missed something.

Trelawney being kidnapped was well discussed on the Trelawney topic. Enough that it is almost a certainty, at least in my judgement. This theory does seem to have been accepted as canon.

I also agree with Catherine and Weeny that Draco is a whiner. He does not like to accept responsibility for his actions ... or lack of action. He is also unable to admit anyone else has real abilities. I guess it is easier to whine and point the finger at someone else. Harry gets all the attention and is allowed to play on the house team because he has a scar. Hermione only gets good grades because the professors play favorites ... It couldn't be that Harry is a naturally good flyer and Hermione is both smarter and studies harder than Draco?

Solitaire



Laura W - May 21, 2006 12:44 pm (#1379 of 1825)
Catherine wrote

"Draco is a whiner, and I am thinking of the first time Harry met him, Draco reminded him strongly of Dudley. In many ways, I believe that Draco has been indulged by Narcissa just as Petunia over-indulges Dudley."


In fact, I see numerous similarities between Dudley and Draco.


Dudley always travels with a gang - especially Piers Polkiss ( "the one who held people's arms behind their backs while Dudley hit them" (PS, chapter two) ) when he does his dirty work: Draco always travels with his gang of Crabbe and Goyle when he does his dirty work
Dudley beats up on - physically and verbally - anyone who is physically smaller and/or weaker than he, notably Harry for the first eleven years of their lives ( "(Harry) wore round glasses held together with a lot of Sellotape because of all the times Dudley had punched him on the nose." (PS, chapter two) ), and then other youngsters such as 10-year-old Mark Evans (OoP): Draco cruelly attacks - mainly verbally, but in no less a hurtful manner - those who are vulnerable, such as Ron for his lack of money, Harry for his lack of family, all the Weasley children regarding Arthur's lack of promotion and Molly's plumpness, etc., and he takes pleasure when other do the same (ie - when Snape makes repeated disparaging comments about Neville's lack of talent in front of others (PoA))
Dudley - along with his parents - is prejudiced and unaccepting of anybody who is different (read "inferior") from him, such as his wizard cousin Harry and his deceased aunt and uncle: Draco - along with his parents - is prejudiced (read "racist") in the extreme against anybody who he considers to be his inferior, such as the Muggle-born Hermoine, the part-giant Hagrid, the Muggle-loving Dumbledore, the Weasley family and house elves

These are just a few examples. And, yes, Catherine, I'm sure Draco had always been over-indulged by *both* his parents all his life - as the single heir to the noble (Laura makes sour face) pure-blood Malfoy name -, just like Dudley had been.

Laura



timrew - May 21, 2006 3:17 pm (#1380 of 1825)
And yet, in HBP, Draco does the only good thing he has done in all the books. He cannot kill Dumbledore.

From being a slimy little, bullying git that nobody would wee-wee on if he were on fire, I now have my hopes for Draco to be reformed.



virginiaelizabeth - May 21, 2006 5:18 pm (#1381 of 1825)
From being a slimy little, bullying git that nobody would wee-wee on if he were on fire, I now have my hopes for Draco to be reformed. haha laughed out loud on that one Tim!

Good point Tim! I definatly still think there is hope for him, Draco has always been more of a talker instead of a walker. He usually doesn't use anything but his mouth to get what he wants, example: Buckbeak gets sentenced to death because Malfoy whinned. Other than pointing his wand at people, Malfoy generally uses his mouth to hurt and abuse people,(he never does anything in front of teachers either) and loves power, such as being a prefect, where he can verbally abuse everyone because he feels as though he's earned that right. But in HBP he was expected to do some walking and he couldn't do it. IMO one of his weaknesses is the fact that he is not only a chicken, but he's not very self-sufficent either.



Die Zimtzicke - May 21, 2006 8:07 pm (#1382 of 1825)
I always thought there was hope for him. He was just a child prior to HBP. Only as the books progress does he become more of an adult, with the potential to have an adult's reasoning and make an adult's choices. The only bad choice he made as he became more of an adult was to join the Death Eaters, but who knows what kind of pressure was on him to do that? Decent people can make horrific decisions at times. None of the kids should be condemned forever for soemthing they did at 12, 13, 14, or 15, not even Draco.



Weeny Owl - May 21, 2006 9:44 pm (#1383 of 1825)
Just what do those of you who think Draco can be reformed mean exactly by "reformed?"

I don't think Draco is the next Dark Lord in Training, but I also don't think he wants my side to win. My side is Harry, Dumbledore, the Order, and all the past, present, and future Muggleborns whom Draco so much despises.

I think he truly wants a Dark Lord of some type to win. One who will rid him of the tainted presence of Muggleborns, one who will kowtow to him and his self-proclaimed superiority, and one who will indulge him the same way his parents do. I don't think he wants the current Dark Lord, or at least not the Dark Lord who threatens him and his family.

I will never see him as being remotely accepting of anyone who isn't a pureblood, and that's basically why the war is being fought, or at least that's the excuse for it.

I just can't see Draco supporting any group or individual who would expect all magical beings to be welcomed into the Wizarding World.



Laura W - May 22, 2006 2:44 am (#1384 of 1825)

"The only bad choice he made as he became more of an adult was to join the Death Eaters, but who knows what kind of pressure was on him to do that?"


If you don't mind my saying so, Die Z, to me that's rather like saying of someone, "The only bad choice he made as he became more of an adult was to join the Nazi Party."

Good grief, he let Death Eaters into Hogwarts !! He may have been unable to kill Dumbledore - which he may not have been meant to do anyway (ie - kill DD) - but he succeeded in DEs gaining access to the school, thereby putting every child there in danger. Not to mention what happened to poor Bill. And what about him being responsible for the poisonings of Katie Bell and Ron, both of whom nearly died? This is more than just using his mouth to hurt people, virginiaelizabeth. In the Muggle world, the 16-year-old Malfoy kid would be guilty of two counts of attempted murder for the poisonings alone, I'd say.

The whole question of whether he did so because of devotion to Voldemort and his cause or because his family was threatened is still up in the air, as far as I'm concerned. On the one hand, he boasted to the other Slytherins on the train on the way to Hogwarts that he had "moved on to bigger and better things." (HBP, Chapter Seven, p. 144 (Cdn.)) *and* in Chapter 15 he shouted at Snape, "I know what you're up to! You want to steal my glory!" Glory, as in Draco is convinced he will be well rewarded by the Dark Lord if he accomplishes his mission. On the other hand, he cries to Myrtle in the bathroom that "... unless I do it soon ... he says he'll kill me." and says the same to Dumbledore on the Tower. Two different stories here. I hope Jo reconciles that contradiction - to my mind - in Book Seven, but regardless, remember that conversation between Sirius and Peter from PoA, chapter nineteen:

" 'What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?' said Black, with a terrible fury in his face. 'Only innocent lives, Peter!'

'You don't understand!' whined Pettigrew. 'He would have killed me, Sirius!"

'THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!' roared Black. 'DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS. AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!' "

As did a lot of Germans who risked their lives to hide Jewish families during the war. As would Harry without a moment's hesitation. Alternately, Draco could have gone to Dumbledore at the start of his sixth year of school, explained the situation and asked DD - the only one You-Know-Who fears - for help for him and Narcissa.

I'm with Weeny Owl on this issue. Only more so. (grin)

Laura



Saracene - May 22, 2006 3:41 am (#1385 of 1825)
I think that initially Draco was quite excited about playing with the big boys and being given an important mission by his snake-nosed master. From what I see in the canon, I can't see any indication that Draco was pressured to join Death Eaters or threatened into taking on the task in any way. Why, he was all crowing and self-satisfied on the train. Of course later on, when his clever plan wasn't working as well as he'd hoped and the Dark Lord got impatient, Draco found out what serving Voldemort *really* meant, and freaked out in a big way. Well, sonny, welcome to the real world.

I don't really think it would ever occur to Draco to go and seek help from Dumbledore. We the readers know that Dumbledore would never want Draco to come to harm, but for Draco, Dumbledore is the enemy. He'd probably expect to be treated the same way he'd treat -his- enemies.

I do think that Draco will end up doing something redeeming/admirable in the next book, but I don't see him go through a 180-degree transformation at all.



Weeny Owl - May 22, 2006 9:53 am (#1386 of 1825)
I'm with Weeny Owl on this issue. Only more so. (grin)

(snort)

I agree, Laura, that regardless of what Draco may or may not have done, he is at least indirectly responsible for Dumbledore's death since he let the Death Eaters in there in the first place.

I don't have a problem with Draco's story changing, though. It was gradual. On the train he was bragging and sure of his position, by Christmas he wasn't quite so sure and was beginning to look stressed, and by Myrtle's scene, he was learning what it means to be a Dark Lord's servant.

Draco found out what serving Voldemort *really* meant, and freaked out in a big way. Well, sonny, welcome to the real world.

Exactly, Saracene.

Draco might help out the good guys if there's something in it for him, and he might not think this particular dark lord is such a good thing after all, but I don't see him changing his beliefs at all, and that's what, to me, would be needed for true redemption.



rambkowalczyk - May 22, 2006 9:55 am (#1387 of 1825)
If you don't mind my saying so, Die Z, to me that's rather like saying of someone, "The only bad choice he made as he became more of an adult was to join the Nazi Party." Laura W

Without wanting to get into too much politics, not all people who joined the Nazi party did so of their own free will. Some may have done so to keep the jobs they had so they could still provide for their family. They realized that if they didn't join, their families would suffer. This may be moral cowardice, but to these people family came first.

Now having said this, I think that Draco did willingly join the Death Eaters. Maybe he saw it as a way to make up for what his father did. I'm sure Draco knew that Voldemort was very angry at his father. What he didn't know at that time was that if he refused he would have been killed.



haymoni - May 22, 2006 1:54 pm (#1388 of 1825)
I could see Draco begging Lucius to join the Death Eaters, just like Fred & George were begging to join the Order.

The Twins were reminded that they really didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

Once Lucius was captured, I don't think Draco blinked an eye before telling Aunt Bella that he wanted in.

I wonder how Voldy communicated with Draco to tell him that if he didn't complete the task, he would be killed.

I'm guessing that he didn't send a Howler!



Soul Search - May 22, 2006 4:14 pm (#1389 of 1825)
My biggest question is Draco's role in Book Seven? I don't think we have seen the last of him, and, given the buildup we have from the first six books, I have to conclude that his role will be significant.

Will Draco be a protaganist against Harry? Will Draco help Harry, somehow? Could even be both.

Current storyline suggests that Draco will will also be involved with Snape.



Laura W - May 22, 2006 5:34 pm (#1390 of 1825)
Saracene wrote: "I think that initially Draco was quite excited about playing with the big boys and being given an important mission by his snake-nosed master. From what I see in the canon, I can't see any indication that Draco was pressured to join Death Eaters or threatened into taking on the task in any way. Why, he was all crowing and self-satisfied on the train. Of course later on, when his clever plan wasn't working as well as he'd hoped and the Dark Lord got impatient, Draco found out what serving Voldemort *really* meant, and freaked out in a big way. Well, sonny, welcome to the real world."

What you say sounds reasonable. Ok, then. Your quote above *does* help me; I have a LOT of problems with contradictions and inconsistancies when it comes to fictional characters and situations (slightly obvious, eh?). So serious thanks, Saracene.

But it still doesn't make me like him or sympathize with him at all. Weeny Owl said it for me: "My side is Harry, Dumbledore, the Order, and all the past, present, and future Muggleborns whom Draco so much despises." (Plus, my side is whoever in the wizarding world revokes the MOMs Anti-Werewolf Legislation and who legislates fair pay and working conditions for house elves.)

Laura



geauxtigers - May 22, 2006 7:43 pm (#1391 of 1825)
I agree, Laura, that regardless of what Draco may or may not have done, he is at least indirectly responsible for Dumbledore's death since he let the Death Eaters in there in the first place.

I have to say yes Draco did let the DE in, but to say thats the reason DD is "dead" is incorrect. SNAPE "killed" DD, the DE weren't involed in DD "death" which is how you are making it sound. SNAPE is the only only who said AK unless you are suggesting that Snape and a DE switched places by means of polyjuice potion, then therefore your statment is correct.

"My side is Harry, Dumbledore, the Order, and all the past, present, and future Muggleborns whom Draco so much despises."

I don't think that anyone here is suggesting that they aren't on the Orders side.

Personally, I don't think that Draco is EVIL, a spoiled brat and complete butthead and a number of other things that are inappropriate to say here yes, but evil I think is a very strong term and hateful word. Granted hes done a number of rotten things that would get him thrown in jail in the muggle world, but its all out of complete cowardness. His whole his he is a weeny, a coward and hes only doing this out of that. Yes Draco should have died rather than do whatever Vold wants him too, but he didn't. Not to mention that he is 16, I'm 16 I don't consider 16 yr olds children by any means, but not adults either. EVERYONE screws up and Draco has big time, but just because for the first time he really screws up doesn't automatically make him evil.

None of the kids should be condemned forever for soemthing they did at 12, 13, 14, or 15, not even Draco. So I agree with this. Its like if a 16 year old kid commits a crime, not murder, just a crime to get in jail for a couple of years and the crime on his permant record, should that be held against him for the rest of his life? Affect him by not being able to get a job? I just think that yalls use of Draco can never redeem himself is a little harsh for a 16 year old kid who made a mistake.

That said, I don't like Draco in the least, but hes not evil. DD is always talking of giving second chances, why would Draco not have that same oppurtunity?

DUNGBOMBS PLEASE......



Weeny Owl - May 22, 2006 10:54 pm (#1392 of 1825)
That isn't exactly true. Yes, Snape is the one who cast the Avada Kedavra, but Dumbledore was dead regardless. The other Death Eaters were going to see to it one way or another, and if Snape hadn't shown up when he did, one of them would have killed Dumbledore.

If Draco hadn't let the Death Eaters into the castle, NO ONE would have been on the tower that night, therefore, Draco is at least indirectly responsible for Dumbledore's death.

I have already said that I don't think Draco is the epitome of evil, but he is weak, and weak people can be as deadly as any. Just look at Wormtail for an example.

His whole his he is a weeny

(cough) Erm... there is nothing wrong with being weeny.

I just think that yalls use of Draco can never redeem himself is a little harsh for a 16 year old kid who made a mistake.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "redeem himself."

Also, he didn't just make a mistake. Draco has known for quite some time what Death Eaters are and what they do. At twelve years old he said he hoped Hermione died. He seemed quite pleased that Cedric had been killed. He taunted people on the Hogwarts Express about Mudbloods and Muggle lovers being the first to die. He deliberately and with malice aforethought allowed murderers into a building filled with school children. That no one died besides Dumbledore is a blessing, but it could have been much much worse. Draco knew when he let the Death Eaters in that something bad would happen. He knew, yet he went ahead with it anyway.

I don't see that Draco WANTS to be redeemed. He cared about his family and him possibly being killed, but that was the extent of his concern. He doesn't appear, at least to me, to feel anything for any of Voldemort's victims except him and his family. That doesn't sound like someone who wants redemption.



frogface - May 23, 2006 1:57 am (#1393 of 1825)
I don't think Draco will have a complete turn-around in the series, but I think there is hope for him in his life (if he survives beyond book 7). After all, 16 years is very young in the scheme of things. I also just finished re-reading the series and I just want to remind you all of this quote from the end of book six.

Pg 596, chapter 30. Bloomsbury children's hardcover edition.

"Harry had not spared Malfoy much thought. His animosity was all for Snape, but he had not forgotten the fear in Malfoy's voice on that Tower top, nor the fact that he lowered his wand before the other Death Eaters arrived. Harry did not believe that Malfoy would have killed Dumbledore. He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike. Where, Harry wondered, was Malfoy now, and what was Voldemort making him do under threat of killing him and his parents?"

I can't help but feel that JKR wrote this so that readers would make note of it. I think its possible that Draco will surprise us, his love for his parents might very well save him as well. I remember before HBP came out a lot of people didn't take Draco seriously as any kind of threat. A lot of people expected him to play the same sort of role that he played in books 1 - 5. Well he surprised us then, so who's to say he won't surprise us again?



Solitaire - May 23, 2006 7:15 am (#1394 of 1825)
I can't help agreeing with Weeny and Laura here. I don't really see reform in Draco. I believe Draco wanted to be a big man, so he agreed to do a job for Voldemort--kill Dumbledore. I think he honestly believed he could do the job without actually having to wield his wand. He tried the necklace, which he must have believed Dumbledore would touch at some point and then die. He tried poisoning wine, but Dumbledore didn't drink it. I think Draco began to panic when he realized that killing Dumbledore was not going to be some detached, impersonal act; rather, he was going to have to go wand-to-wand with him.

For what I suspect is the first time in his life, Draco was in a situation where he knew there would be retribution against him and probably his mother if he didn't get the job done. He also knew he'd bitten off more than he could chew, and he didn't know where to turn. Hence the crying to Myrtle. Can you believe he would have had anything to do with Myrtle under any other circumstances?

I suppose I do not believe any of Draco's sentiments or values have changed. He is simply scared and looking for a way to save his own and his mother's lives. The fact that he could not kill Dumbledore when push came to shove may have shown him his own weakness--and, ironically, could just as easily have the effect of making him more ruthless in the future. Just something to consider ...

Solitaire



Soul Search - May 23, 2006 7:52 am (#1395 of 1825)
We also know that Draco is a fraidy cat. He would rather run than fight. He had to have been caught up in the action after the triumph of letting in the death eaters to have even made it to the tower at all.

I have to think this fear will drive him in book seven as well.



wynnleaf - May 23, 2006 9:58 am (#1396 of 1825)
First time in this thread in a long while. Great discussion going on!

I agree with frogface's observation of JKR's putting in the paragraph of Harry reflecting on Draco's actions. JKR put that in for a reason. On the one hand, I realize I often point out that we only see Harry's point of view in the stories. In this case, I think she wants us to take note of a new point of view that Harry has developed. Here it is again.

Harry had not spared Malfoy much thought. His animosity was all for Snape, but he had not forgotten the fear in Malfoy's voice on that Tower top, nor the fact that he lowered his wand before the other Death Eaters arrived. Harry did not believe that Malfoy would have killed Dumbledore. He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike. Where, Harry wondered, was Malfoy now, and what was Voldemort making him do under threat of killing him and his parents?

Can Draco be redeemed? I think it's interesting to compare what we know about Draco to the little bit that we know, or is probable, about Snape's turning from LV as a young man.

Draco grew up spoiled in a Dark family, where LV's goals would have been praised. He has a completely thorough mindset that purebloods are above all else and the death of muggleborns is perfectly acceptable. Whether or not he's joined the DE's officially - Dark Mark and all - we don't know. However, I agree that he's probably been like the Weasley boys wanting to join the Order -- "chomping at the bit" to join the DE's. As others have said, by half way through HBP, he's seen what it's really like to serve LV and he's scared to death, realizing that his and his family's lives are at stake.

I think that Draco could turn away from LV. But I believe it would be more in the sense of seeking protection from LV and the DE's, not to join with the Light side and actively seek LV's downfall.

Apparently, Snape joined LV for different reasons from Draco -- not having come from a spoiled pureblood background. But he may have agreed with LV's goals, nevertheless. However, when he decided to turn from LV, we are given the impression from DD that it was not so much out of fear of his own life, but regret over being instrumental in LV targeting the Potters. Further, Snape was willing to put his life at risk to spy on LV in an attempt to bring him down.

I guess this is what I'm saying: anybody who sincerely wants to turn toward the Light should probably, in DD's opinion, be given a second chance. Snape was clearly given a second chance and Draco was offered one.

But Draco seems very fearful, scared of risks, afraid not only for his family, but his own life. I see him as never the type to run toward DD and if he had taken DD up on his offer, it would be for the protection involved, not to try to right any wrongs. Conversely, Snape appears to have "returned" to DD. One gets the idea he decided on his own, rather than being caught in a situation like Draco. Further, he apparently wanted to right the wrongs he'd been involved with, and was willing to risk his life as a spy to do so.

We know that Draco had attempted several murders, let the DE's into the castle, and was instrumental in DD's death. We know that Snape was a full-fledged DE and took a partial prophecy to LV that was instrumental in the Potter's deaths (although Snape may not have realized the prophecy would definitely bring about someone's death). Both did evil things (whether or not one wants to quibble about the individuals being personally evil or not) and were offered second chances.

Will Draco be "redeemed?" I don't think we'll see Draco in Book 7 risking his life to right the wrongs he's helped bring about. I think we'll see him seeking protection, wanting to escape LV similarly to Karkarov's desire to get away, except in Draco's case he wants his parents safe, too. Is that "redeemed?" No, I don't think so. Is it turning from the Dark? Not really. Is it rejecting LV? Yes, but only in the sense of rejecting LV the person and his fear tactics as it affects Draco, not necessarily LV's ideas and politics.



Die Zimtzicke - May 23, 2006 12:37 pm (#1397 of 1825)
Regarding letting Death Eaters into Hogwarts, we do not know exactly who or how many he expected to come in. We KNOW he didn't expect Greyback. Dumbledore comments on the fact that Draco has let Greyback in where his friends live and Draco says he didn't expect that. I'm paraphrasing horribly because I am without a book where I am now, but I am positive Draco had no idea how far the whole thing was going to go.



Magic Words - May 23, 2006 2:13 pm (#1398 of 1825)
Good comparison, Wynnleaf. I agree with most of it. But I think Draco rejecting LV as a person (versus LV's ideas) is a bigger step than you give him credit for. As you've said, Draco grew up spoiled in a Dark family. If he rejects LV, even if he hangs on to his pureblood prejudice, he is still pitting himself against his father, the family name, etc. This is important, because for the first time, he'd be beginning to think for himself instead of spouting DE doctrine.

Further, what would happen to Draco if he did ask for protection, for entirely selfish reasons? First of all, he'd likely find himself in an environment where Muggle-borns are respected and treated as equal, and he'd see firsthand that they're up to the task. Yes, he saw that at Hogwarts to an extent, but only in the other houses, and he always had Slytherins who shared his mindset. This time, he'll already have rejected the DE's and his father with them, so he won't have complete confidence in what his parents taught him anymore, and he won't have Slytherin peers to reassure him. He'll be a lot more open to change.



Soul Search - May 23, 2006 2:23 pm (#1399 of 1825)
I have to disagree, Magic Words.

Draco and the Malfoys believe and act like eighteenth century royalty: the rest of the world and everyone in it only exist to serve royalty (purebloods.) And, the Marfoys, like eighteenth century royalty, will continue in their belief as their heads drop into a waiting basket.

Draco may align himself with someone, probably Harry, to avoid that head drop, but his beliefs will not change.



Weeny Owl - May 23, 2006 2:24 pm (#1400 of 1825)
Not really. Is it rejecting LV? Yes, but only in the sense of rejecting LV the person and his fear tactics as it affects Draco, not necessarily LV's ideas and politics.

I can certainly agree with this, wynnleaf.

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geauxtigers - May 23, 2006 7:01 pm (#1401 of 1825)
I don't think Draco will have a complete turn-around in the series, but I think there is hope for him in his life (if he survives beyond book 7). After all, 16 years is very young in the scheme of things. I also just finished re-reading the series and I just want to remind you all of this quote from the end of book six.

Pg 596, chapter 30. Bloomsbury children's hardcover edition.

"Harry had not spared Malfoy much thought. His animosity was all for Snape, but he had not forgotten the fear in Malfoy's voice on that Tower top, nor the fact that he lowered his wand before the other Death Eaters arrived. Harry did not believe that Malfoy would have killed Dumbledore. He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike. Where, Harry wondered, was Malfoy now, and what was Voldemort making him do under threat of killing him and his parents?"

I can't help but feel that JKR wrote this so that readers would make note of it. I think its possible that Draco will surprise us, his love for his parents might very well save him as well. I remember before HBP came out a lot of people didn't take Draco seriously as any kind of threat. A lot of people expected him to play the same sort of role that he played in books 1 - 5. Well he surprised us then, so who's to say he won't surprise us again?

Thank you, Frogface! I'm glad someone here agrees with me for a change. I NEVER said he would turn into a saint or anything, but I do think he will get cold feet and already has. He won't be a DE as an adult. He reminds me a little of Regulus... I like Harry, feel some sympathy for him even though he doesn't deserve my sympathy I still feel for him. Guess its just strictly a matter of opinion and frogface and myself are on the same page I think?....



virginiaelizabeth - May 23, 2006 9:56 pm (#1402 of 1825)
Will Draco be "redeemed?" I don't think we'll see Draco in Book 7 risking his life to right the wrongs he's helped bring about. I think we'll see him seeking protection, wanting to escape LV similarly to Karkarov's desire to get away, except in Draco's case he wants his parents safe, too. Is that "redeemed?" No, I don't think so. Is it turning from the Dark? Not really. Is it rejecting LV? Yes, but only in the sense of rejecting LV the person and his fear tactics as it affects Draco, not necessarily LV's ideas and politics.

I agree with you on some parts of this wynnleaf, I agree, he's not going to make a complete turn around, and move over to the side of good and try to right his wrongs, but I do feel like he will start to make his own decisions, and some of these desicions will lead him away from Voldemort's path. I think Draco realizes that following the DE, isn't really what he wants to do with his life, and that in time he will realize this. He may or may not do it because he wants to save himself, and his family, because I think that he would have followed through with his plans, seein as thats the best way for him to save himself and his family:just do what LV wants,and you'll be fine, desert him and you're dead. So in a since, when Draco lowered his wand, he made the right chioce, not the easy one. The easy way out would have been to murder DD, yet he lowered his wand,and made the right decision.

frogface: I totally agree with what you have said, its put very well!!



timrew - May 24, 2006 5:05 pm (#1403 of 1825)
Weeny Owl:- At twelve years old he said he hoped Hermione died. He seemed quite pleased that Cedric had been killed. He taunted people on the Hogwarts Express about Mudbloods and Muggle lovers.................

He was twelve! He was a kid!

I think in Book 7, Draco will redeem himself. If he doesn't, he doesn't. But I think he will.



virginiaelizabeth - May 24, 2006 5:12 pm (#1404 of 1825)
Yes good point there Tim! He was only 12, not that it creates an excuse for him, but come on, I seriously doubt he truly meant it, because like Tim said, he was only 12! It said it out of meaness, but not pure hatred, there's a difference between the two, hate is a strong word,therefore it has a stronger meaning.



Lilly P - May 24, 2006 5:38 pm (#1405 of 1825)
At age 12, I said I was going to be president of the USA, I wouldn't be caught dead in a plaid skirt and that I would never be in love with any one but a certain member of a popular pop band(NKOTB). The point is, at that age we have very strong convictions but not exactley the ones we end up with as adults. hormones are running rampant at that age and we cling to the things we are taught by the people we admire. we havent yet discovered our "own" identities, or even if we do, we are afraid to express them for fear of reprisel or disaprovel of the ones we love. I believe Draco has the POSSIBILITY to realize how wrong he was, but I wonder, does he have the GUTS to admit it and ask for forgivness and turn to the good? for that is a true messure of the morality of a person; choosing the harder right instead of the eaiser wrong.



wynnleaf - May 24, 2006 8:27 pm (#1406 of 1825)
With a 13 year old son, and the numerous guy friends of my teenage daughters, I am often amazed at the awful things that guys will profess to want to happen to various other people. Oh, and they will quite freely talk about it. Obviously, practically none of them turn out (in real life) to be the kid who actually would ever do any of the creatively terrible things they dream up. Mark Twain didn't get a notion to explode "the good little boy" in some sort of vacuum.

Most kids parents are modeling, advocating, and training them toward completely different behavior from the stuff the boys are dreaming up and the kids themselves realize they're really just playing. But Draco's got a lot of support at home for the notion that murder of certain people is "okay."

On the one hand, many boys might say the same things Draco does at age 12-15, and never ever come close to acting on it. But with the upbringing that Draco has had, I think he's a lot more likely to follow through on those youthful ideas.

Still, Draco did show that he didn't really want to kill anyone. I don't think it was just because it was DD. I think DD was right that Draco didn't really want to do kill. But I still think it's a lot further stretch for Draco to really turn his back on everything he's ever believed through his parents. And we didn't really see any sign of his changing his mind about his politics and biases - only a change of mind that killing isn't as easy as he thought.



Weeny Owl - May 25, 2006 1:38 am (#1407 of 1825)
He was twelve! He was a kid!

Yes, he was twelve, but when he taunted people on the train about Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers being the first to die, and then saying that Cedric was the first (or starting to, anyway), he was fourteen.

He was fifteen when he said to Harry, "You're dead, Potter!"

He was sixteen (nearly seventeen) when he let Death Eaters into the castle.

That seems more like a pattern than merely a twelve-year-old's immature statements.

All of you who made horrible statements or whose children made horrible statements at the age of twelve probably didn't have a Death Eater type for a father. You most likely weren't raised to hate a particular group of people or to have either killed or tortured them or to have at least seen them killed or tortured, and if not having actually done it or witnessed it, to have heard about it as normal conversation.

Draco isn't a misunderstood child going through a difficult puberty. He's a person who was raised by a viscious and blood-thirsty racist. A racist who wants people dead and is willing to kill them or have them killed. Lucius didn't care who died at the Ministry as long as Harry wasn't harmed before they could get to the Prophecy. He said it was okay to kill the others. THAT is the type of person who raised Draco, and probably totally opposite to what you and your parents are.

And we didn't really see any sign of his changing his mind about his politics and biases - only a change of mind that killing isn't as easy as he thought.

Excellent way to put it, wynnleaf.



Solitaire - May 25, 2006 7:01 am (#1408 of 1825)
I agree, Weeny, that this was not just an idle statement made when he was 12. Rather, we see this behavior escalating in Draco from year to year. When he is 16, he makes a conscious choice to work on behalf of Voldemort and the DEs, and he takes numerous, deliberate steps to harm Dumbledore and others.

Soul Search said the following: Draco and the Malfoys believe and act like eighteenth century royalty: the rest of the world and everyone in it only exist to serve royalty (purebloods.) And, the Marfoys, like eighteenth century royalty, will continue in their belief as their heads drop into a waiting basket.

Draco may align himself with someone, probably Harry, to avoid that head drop, but his beliefs will not change.

I hate to have to say it, because I hate to feel someone is so lost when he is so young ... but I do agree with Soul Search. I think Draco is worried chiefly about his own neck--and probably that of his mom. If he finds switching sides can save his neck, he may do it. I really do not think he would give his life for his pure-blood prejudices. Alas, that does not mean he would stop considering himself superior to Muggle-borns and Half-bloods. JM2K ...

Solitaire



geauxtigers - May 25, 2006 1:44 pm (#1409 of 1825)
He was fifteen when he said to Harry, "You're dead, Potter!" That seems more like a pattern than merely a twelve-year-old's immature statements. -weeny owl

I think you just hit the nail on the head with that one. Draco's biggest problem is that he is immature and that you're dead potter is a very immature thing to say. Maybe he meant it on the outside but deep down it takes a very hateful person to really mean it and I don't think Draco truly feels that way. People will say almost anything when they are mad at someone and at this point Lucious has been thrown in Azkaban and Draco is really p.o. so he probably said this out of anger than truth deep down.

This pattern you are talking about shows that he is infact immature and in HBP he is expected to do something he isn't prepared for. He is so reliant on others to do things for him that he can't fend for himself for lack of better word. His immaturity leads him to the complications in book 6 because he has no idea what hes doing. He for once is trying to act alone, which is also immature. He isn't well prepared to be chucked out in the real word. So good job with that immaturity catch I think we've found the brunt of the problem!

Also, yes he grew up as a Malfoy, and was raised by horrible people, but look at it this way, so was Sirius. All comes down to which path you choose in life.



wynnleaf - May 25, 2006 1:54 pm (#1410 of 1825)
Well, geauxtigers, you've got a point about Sirius.

But Sirius was raised to certain prejudices which he gave up early on. Yes, at 15 he was inclined to try to kill someone -- even if it was an immature thing and Sirius wasn't really that bad. And he still turned out on the "good side."

But Sirius did not ever follow on the prejudices of his family. He had turned away from those long before his mid-teens.

I don't think Draco's "you're dead" comment was necessarily important -- kids often say that, simply meaning "you're in deep trouble with me." But Draco did support the prejudices of his family and he did seem to think it was okay for muggles, muggleborns, and blood-traitors to die.

Certainly it's possible that he could change his beliefs. But we haven't seen any evidence of that by the end of Book 6, only evidence that he didn't want to kill someone.



Magic Words - May 25, 2006 2:24 pm (#1411 of 1825)
Certainly it's possible that he could change his beliefs. But we haven't seen any evidence of that by the end of Book 6, only evidence that he didn't want to kill someone. -Wynnleaf

You've got me there. I'm really just being optimistic. But I keep coming back to the fact that he didn't want to kill someone. Death Eaters kill people. And if Draco were going to change, it certainly wouldn't be overnight. I think it would be something like what we're seeing, where a trait he already has - concern for his own life - comes into conflict with his projected career as a Death Eater and forces him to rethink it.

On another subject, let's look at Slughorn for a moment. I would say he's prejudiced. He liked Lily, yes, but as Harry notes, he's a little too surprised that a Muggle-born witch could be good at Potions. He seemed to think there was a real difference, some Muggle-borns are just able to work past it. Yet he was Dumbledore's friend and a basically decent person. Why couldn't Draco wind up something like that?



Weeny Owl - May 25, 2006 3:33 pm (#1412 of 1825)
We don't know for a fact that all Death Eaters have killed people, but we do know that many are fond of using Unforgivable Curses.

Don't forget that Draco was taught Occlumency by Bellatrix. Bella is certainly fond of the Cruciatus Curse, the very same one Draco tried to use on Harry. If Auntie Bella taught Draco Occlumency, who is to say what else she taught him. She herself was taught quite a bit by Voldemort, and she most likely wants her darling nephew to be as up on his dark magic as possible.

I see patterns of Draco being true to his father, his beliefs, and his prejudices, while others may see it as him just spouting off.

A twelve-year-old boy wants a girl to die, while the same boy a few years later can't quite kill someone but is certainly willing to use a very horrible curse on a living human being. I still see a pattern, and while I hardly think Draco is up to the level of his father or Voldemort, I still see him as not showing any remorse or giving any indication whatsoever that he even flirts with the idea of his position being wrong or that he needs to redeem himself.

He can't kill Dumbledore. Bully for him, but as Dumbledore himself said, there are worse things than death. Using the Cruciatus Curse on someone certainly sounds like a very hateful and evil thing to do.



Catherine - May 25, 2006 3:47 pm (#1413 of 1825)
He can't kill Dumbledore. Bully for him, but as Dumbledore himself said, there are worse things than death. --Weeny Owl

I believe that Dumbledore was trying to "save" Draco from himself in the tower scene. He was being as persuasive as he could under the circumstances, and I do not for a moment believe that it was to save his own life; I think it was to keep Draco from committing a perverse and evil act.

As Dumbledore said, it was his mercy that mattered, not Draco's mercy. I feel uncomfortable praising Draco because he found killing difficult. We don't generally approve of murder, but we would want Harry to be "braver" in that situation, and follow through if it were Voldemort!

I firmly believe that Draco hesitated because he is weak, and because he is a coward. He may also have hesitated because murder is wrong, but Draco's sense of "right and wrong" seems rather muddled to me, and I doubt that he hesitated out of any moral uprightness.



Weeny Owl - May 25, 2006 4:12 pm (#1414 of 1825)
I feel uncomfortable praising Draco because he found killing difficult.
I firmly believe that Draco hesitated because he is weak, and because he is a coward.

I couldn't agree more, Catherine.

I'm not sure if I'm quite making myself understood, but I do feel that even though someone can't commit one horrible act doesn't mean that all horrible acts are now something said person would no longer do.

All we know for a fact is that Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore. We don't know that he couldn't kill someone else, and even if he can't, he could still create devastation with other curses.

In other words, just because a man can't kill doesn't mean he won't go home and beat his wife or kick his dog.



Soul Search - May 25, 2006 5:02 pm (#1415 of 1825)
Catherine, Weeny Owl,

I agree with Catherine's statement:

I feel uncomfortable praising Draco because he found killing difficult.

I firmly believe that Draco hesitated because he is weak, and because he is a coward.
I would like to add that Draco made two attempts to kill Dumbledore, remotely. He has no problem with the concept of killing someone or of killing Headmaster Dumbledore.

What he does have a problem with is looking his victim in the eyes while he does it. Clearly, Draco lowered his wand because he was a coward, not because he suddenly developed some compassion. Draco knew that if he didn't kill Dumbledore, then Snape would have to do his deed for him. Even more cowardly than merely failing to do the deed himself.

I have a fear that Harry may have misread Draco lowering his wand. Harry thinks Draco had second thoughts, or something, but Draco only feared killing Dumbledore more than not killing him. I hope Harry doesn't trust Draco too much.



wynnleaf - May 25, 2006 5:05 pm (#1416 of 1825)
He may also have hesitated because murder is wrong, but Draco's sense of "right and wrong" seems rather muddled to me, and I doubt that he hesitated out of any moral uprightness.

All we know for a fact is that Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore. We don't know that he couldn't kill someone else, and even if he can't, he could still create devastation with other curses.

Catherine and Weeny Owl, I agree with you both in those posts. But I'd add that Draco was willing to kill, as long as it was from a distance -- as long as he didn't have to directly "pull the trigger" so to speak, with the victim right in front of him.

First Draco used the cursed necklace which almost killed Katie. Now if Draco had been so turned off from killing in general, he'd have stopped right there -- "oh, my gosh, I almost killed an innocent person!" Nope, he went right ahead with the poisoned mead(? forgot), which almost killed Ron. He couldn't help, but know that the necklace had the possibility of killing some random person. But even after it almost did kill Katie, he went ahead with another plan which he must have known could also have killed someone besides Dumbledore. It wasn't the fact that people would die that was so hard for Draco, it was being the person at the other end of the wand doing the direct killing.

I tend to think we will see Draco try to side against LV in Book 7. But unless there's some major plot twist that works to actually change his thinking, I believe the only change we'll see in Draco will be only on the surface.

Edit: In a bit of serendipity, I posted at the same time as Soul Search with more or less the same point! Hi Soul Search!



Soul Search - May 25, 2006 5:16 pm (#1417 of 1825)
Hi right back, wynnleaf. Great minds ...



sere35 - May 25, 2006 5:37 pm (#1418 of 1825)
I don't agree with that he was just a kid and he did not want to kill bull. He wanted Dumbledore dead and he wanted to be the one to do it. He just didn't want to have to do it face to face. He is more that willing to kill as long as it is a detached unpersonal experience.

Another thing why do people call someone who is evil or who kills people immature. Just because your evil does not make you immature. You could have killed thousands of people and be the most mature person alive.

One more thing your all acting like killing is wrong.(side note I in no way condone murder or think it is right) This however is a somewhat new concept in are present day society. In ancient times killing was no big deal and was even condoned:gladiator games, human sacrafice as part of a religion, rank in society based on battle prowess etc.



wynnleaf - May 25, 2006 5:46 pm (#1419 of 1825)
Well, as someone else just recently pointed out, Harry is supposedly going to have to kill LV eventually. So even in the context of the books, all killing isn't evil.

However, murder has always been considered wrong by practically every society. Exactly what is murder can be debated (mercy killing?? for instance?). But in general, all murder is bad, therefore killing DD would always be considered bad.

I don't get the impression that Draco is particularly thrilled at the notion of killing DD, even from the start. That is, DD in particular. I don't think he'd have ever even considered it without being ordered by LV. It's not like DD's death is some sort of personal goal for Draco. But on the other hand, he didn't see anything wrong with the murder of anyone who stood in the way of LV and the DE politics. So to Draco killing DD wouldn't be bad, just not necessarily a "life goal." :-)



geauxtigers - May 25, 2006 5:57 pm (#1420 of 1825)
I don't think Draco's "you're dead" comment was necessarily important -- kids often say that, simply meaning "you're in deep trouble with me." But Draco did support the prejudices of his family and he did seem to think it was okay for muggles, muggleborns, and blood-traitors to die.

This is more or less what I was trying to say. Kids always say that stuff when they are mad and I've never known anyone to take it literally as "I want you to die right now" I'm sure we've all said several times in our lives. I can remember playing games or something and the loser who gets mad was like I'm gonna kill you. Obviously they didn't mean it and probably shouldn't've said it, but the fact of the matter is that thats not a very strong reason to think Draco is evil just because he said that immature line.

Don't forget that Draco was taught Occlumency by Bellatrix. Bella is certainly fond of the Cruciatus Curse, the very same one Draco tried to use on Harry.

Let us not forget Harry tried to use it on Bella. Granted he had a good reason, but why would it be okay for Harry to use it and not Draco.

Note that I am in no way trying to defend Draco I truly despise him he is horrible, I just believe that in some way shape or form he won't go DE. He might stull be a prat when its all said and done, but I don't think he will go DE. I believe that everyone should get second chances and it depends on what you make of it. I just think its awful that some of you are completely unwilling to give Draco a second chance.

EDIT 3 people posted in the time I was posting and I feel I must say this:

I don't agree with that he was just a kid and he did not want to kill bull. He wanted Dumbledore dead and he wanted to be the one to do it. He just didn't want to have to do it face to face. He is more that willing to kill as long as it is a detached unpersonal experience.

Another thing why do people call someone who is evil or who kills people immature. Just because your evil does not make you immature. You could have killed thousands of people and be the most mature person alive.

One more thing your all acting like killing is wrong.(side note I in no way condone murder or think it is right) This however is a somewhat new concept in are present day society. In ancient times killing was no big deal and was even condoned:gladiator games, human sacrafice as part of a religion, rank in society based on battle prowess etc.

You can throw all the Dungbombs in the world at me for this, but I just cannot believe anyone would say that. One more thing your all acting like killing is wrong. WOW I'm sorry but I don't think I will ever see that point of view. Killing is taking someone's life from them. You can't honestly sit here and say something like that when people die every day. you've basically just said that its okay to kill a child?! Taking the life of someone who is so young and hasn't truly expirenced life? Something so innocent? Who cares about the past where they had killings and what not, its ILLEAGAL in today's society.

Also I never said that people who kill are immature, I said Draco was immature and used immature ways to attempt murder.

Also to say that Draco wanted to kill DD, then why did he lower his wand?

I'm sorry if I've offended you, but I don't think that its right for anyone to say such a thing especailly when JKR's whole theme is good vs. evil and that killing is wrong, it rips the soul and is an act of evil.



sere35 - May 25, 2006 5:57 pm (#1421 of 1825)
I did not say murder was accepted I said killing was. There is a difference. Also all cultures have a different idea of what murder is. What murder maybe to one culture might just be cleaning up the unworthy or weak to another, it us all subjective



virginiaelizabeth - May 25, 2006 6:06 pm (#1422 of 1825)
sere35 said: Another thing why do people call someone who is evil or who kills people immature. Just because your evil does not make you immature. You could have killed thousands of people and be the most mature person alive.

Let the dungbombs begin...First if all no one here is saying anything about evil people being immature, Draco is immature, but not evil people in general.

One more thing your all acting like killing is wrong.(side note I in no way condone murder or think it is right) This however is a somewhat new concept in are present day society. In ancient times killing was no big deal and was even condoned:gladiator games, human sacrafice as part of a religion, rank in society based on battle prowess etc.

These book take place from 1991-1998, and the last time I check killing was wrong and illegal. I hate to break it to ya, but times have changed, and people do not accept murder. It is considered morally and ethically wrong to take the life of another human being. Just because they did it in the times of gladiators and it "was no big deal"(which I also disagree with because it was a big deal, hundreds of people came to watch those events and thought it entertaining. They may have looked at it as a source of entertainment but that doesn't mean that if it was thier friends or family doing the killing or being killed, that it would still be "no big deal")doesn't mean that its the same way today.

Also, it is definately not a new concept in today's society. maybe you should do some research before making sucha profound statement as that.

So yes, we are acting like killing is wrong because in reality and today's society, you can spend the rest of your life locked up in prison for commiting a crime that you are labeling as being OK. One more thing, the views of murder of the people in the gladiator times has absolutly no relavence to the story, because it takes place in the 20th century, not in ancient times.

Now back to Draco......

EDIT: I did not say murder was accepted I said killing was. There is a difference. Also all cultures have a different idea of what murder is. What murder maybe to one culture might just be cleaning up the unworthy or weak to another, it us all subjective

Like I said before in the wizarding world, murder is not accepted or seen as cleaning up the unworthy or weak, so there really isn't any relavance at all. I will agree that there is a SLIGHT difference between murder and killing, murder is killing with the intend of taking someone else's life, while killing can happen on accident, but what you were saying about the gladiators, that was murder, I don't care how it was done, they were intentionally killing someone so it was murder.



Weeny Owl - May 25, 2006 9:30 pm (#1423 of 1825)
I can remember playing games or something and the loser who gets mad was like I'm gonna kill you.

But do you remember discussing a long-ago murder with your friends, finding out the same circumstances apply in the present, and then saying that you hope a particular girl is the one to be killed?

Spouting off statements in the heat of the moment is one thing, but discussing an old murder and then saying you hope a specific classmate is the victim this time is something else entirely.

Let us not forget Harry tried to use it on Bella. Granted he had a good reason, but why would it be okay for Harry to use it and not Draco.

As I've said before, it wasn't okay for Harry to use it, but as I've also said before, the circumstances were different. Harry tried to use the curse two times... one after seeing Bella kill Sirius, and the other after seeing Snape kill Dumbledore. Draco wasn't in the midst of a fight at the time. He was merely in the boys' room at his school when a classmate walked in.



geauxtigers - May 25, 2006 9:55 pm (#1424 of 1825)
Spouting off statements in the heat of the moment is one thing, but discussing an old murder and then saying you hope a specific classmate is the victim this time is something else entirely.

I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that A) he was 12 and let's face it 12 year olds are usually arogant and cocky as is Draco and he is all talk and no action. Yes verbal abuse I know, but here I think its more of a sterotypical remark against muggle borns in general even though he states that he hope Hermione dies, but then again I think it more because he is jealous that she is better than him at basically everything. Now if he were like a grown man and I'm talking about 20 years old, the circumstances might be different and could be considered as you put it 'something else entirely'. But he's not an adult he basically still a kid who is very insecure and says things that are typical of a 12 year old kid.

As for the crucio thing, I see the difference, but I will agree to disagree. Draco was crying in the bathroom. A 16 year old GUY crying because he can't do something (let us forget for a moment that he has a good reason to cry) and here comes his biggest enemy at school to watch him cry. Now I know I'd be so embrassed that I'd likely get very mad at who ever saw me, and thats what Draco did. The first instinct most people would have is to try and hurt the person I'd probably want to deck them but this is the magical world so there is no 'muggle dueling' (haha). I just reread that part and they were kinda in a duel, so technically it wasn't the whole he sees Harry in the mirror turns around and cries crucio, there were a couple of other hexes fired before hand.



Weeny Owl - May 25, 2006 10:08 pm (#1425 of 1825)
If the ONLY thing Draco had ever said was during that discussion when he was twelve, that would be one thing, but his comments and his behavior in later years show a definite pattern.

It makes it more likely that Draco meant what he said if he's jealous of Hermione. Here is this upstart Mudblood who not only sullies his school but does better in class than he does. Jealous people can and do commit horrible acts. If Draco feels such negative emotions about her at twelve that he would say he wanted her to die, then that seems indicative of his basic nature.

He has been brought up to believe that Muggles and Muggle-borns don't deserve to live. They are dirt to him. They have dirty blood. Ridding the school of them, ridding the world of them, and doing it in whatever way will eliminate them forever is the creed of Death Eaters.

I'm not sure that Draco's father's influence should be ignored. He has made Draco pretty much in his own image, and the hatred is strong in that family. Look at the scene at Madam Malkin's with Draco and Narcissa when the trio walked in. Narcissa is as guilty as Lucius in forming Draco's belief system.

Typical twelve-year-old children don't have racist fathers who discuss killing people with said twelve-year-old. Typical twelve-year-old children don't sit in a room over the holidays and discuss old murders.

Yes, there were other hexes fired before Draco used the Cruciatus Curse, but it was still just an incident in the boys' room at a school.

It would be no different if it had happened in a Muggle school, only instead of the Cruciatus Curse, the boy in question had fired a taser but missed. Draco meant to hurt Harry, and whether or not it was Harry doesn't really matter. This sixteen-year-old boy was in the process of using illegal means to torture a fellow student. No amount of embarrassment in the world deserves that.



virginiaelizabeth - May 26, 2006 5:51 am (#1426 of 1825)
Ridding the school of them, ridding the world of them, and doing it in whatever way will eliminate them forever is the creed of Death Eaters.

Well I would certainly lovve to hear the canon that says the DE's are out to rid the world of muggle-borns, because I thought that they killed those who get in their way. I see no canon there so I don't think its a valid statement.

I'm not sure that Draco's father's influence should be ignored. He has made Draco pretty much in his own image, and the hatred is strong in that family. Look at the scene at Madam Malkin's with Draco and Narcissa when the trio walked in. Narcissa is as guilty as Lucius in forming Draco's belief system.

I'm not ignoring the way that Draco was brought up, and I'm sure that his parents have heavily influenced him in many ways. What I'm trying to say is that he's only 16, and there is still time for him to learn to make his own decisions. He's a smart kid, and he can think for himself, and just because his parents believed one thing, does not neccessarily mean that he has to follow in their foot steps.

Typical twelve-year-old children don't have racist fathers who discuss killing people with said twelve-year-old. Typical twelve-year-old children don't sit in a room over the holidays and discuss old murders. Again there is absolutely not canon in this statement, all it is is an assumption on your part. We do not know that Draco and Lucious sat around at Christmas time and discussing ways to kill mudbloods.

It would be no different if it had happened in a Muggle school, only instead of the Cruciatus Curse, the boy in question had fired a taser but missed. Draco meant to hurt Harry, and whether or not it was Harry doesn't really matter. This sixteen-year-old boy was in the process of using illegal means to torture a fellow student. No amount of embarrassment in the world deserves that.

I agree with you here, it's like shooting someone in a muggle school.



Catherine - May 26, 2006 6:25 am (#1427 of 1825)
While it is good that our members are enjoying a spirited debate, the tone present in some recent posts is overheated, and in some instances could be read as snide and offensive even if that was not the poster's intent.

This thread could be headed for a time-out if things do not improve. Please do not respond to this post in the thread; any concerns can be taken to email.

And...back to Draco Malfoy......



Weeny Owl - May 26, 2006 7:13 am (#1428 of 1825)
Well I would certainly lovve to hear the canon that says the DE's are out to rid the world of muggle-borns

Perhpas I'm wrong, but I would think the Death Eaters would follow what Voldemort's desires were, and in CoS when Memory Tom was talking to Harry in the Chamber, he said that killing Mudbloods was no longer his goal, that he wanted to find out more about Harry. Since it was just a memory of sixteen-year-old Tom, and since present-day Voldemort doesn't know about what was put in the diary, I would think that the sixteen-year-old whose goal was killing Mudbloods would have that same goal when he formed the Death Eaters.

Then, after Cedric had been killed, on the train home, Draco said that the first to go would be Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers, and then started to say that Diggory was the first, but didn't get the entire phrase out.

Again there is absolutely not canon in this statement, all it is is an assumption on your part. We do not know that Draco and Lucious sat around at Christmas time and discussing ways to kill mudbloods.

The canon part of that is that Draco said his father wouldn't tell him everything about what happened the last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, but Draco did know that a Mudblood had died.

I didn't mean that Draco was discussing it with Lucius. I meant that he was discussing it in the Slytherin common room with people he thought were Crabbe and Goyle, and that that conversation topic is something I don't see most twelve-year-olds discussing.



Solitaire - May 26, 2006 7:20 am (#1429 of 1825)
You know, Draco spouted some pretty negative talk about "Mudbloods" throughout CoS. It was not just one isolated comment.

"Enemies of the Heir, beware! You'll be next, Mudbloods!" It was Draco Malfoy. He had pushed to the front of the crowd, his cold eyes alive, his usually bloodless face flushed, as he grinned at the sight of the hanging, immobile cat.

When Ron (disguised as Crabbe via the Polyjuice) was trying to control his anger over one of Draco's remarks, he claimed he had a stomach ache. "Well, go up to the hospital wing and give all those Mudbloods a kick from me," said Malfoy, snickering. "You know, I'm surprised the Daily Prophet hasn't reported all these attacks yet," he went on thoughtfully. "I suppose Dumbledore's trying to hush it all up. He'll be sacked if it doesn't stop soon. Father's always said old Dumbledore's the worst thing that's ever happened to this place. He loves Muggle-borns. A decent headmaster would never've let slime like that Creevey in."

"Saint Potter, the Mudbloods' friend," said Malfoy slowly. "He's another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around with that jumped up Granger Mudblood. And people think he's Slytherin's heir!"

"Father says to keep my head down and let the Heir of Slytherin get on with it. He says the school needs ridding of all the Mudblood filth, but not to get mixed up in it.

"I'm quite surprised the Mudbloods haven't all packed their bags by now," Malfoy went on. "Bet you five Galleons the next one dies. Pity it wasn't Granger--"

These comments are scattered throughout CoS. I'd say they indicate more than just an angry outburst about Hermione. They seem to show a deep-seated, well-cultivated hatred of Muggle-borns and anyone who befriends them.

Solitaire



Magic Words - May 26, 2006 8:20 am (#1430 of 1825)
I'm not ignoring the way that Draco was brought up, and I'm sure that his parents have heavily influenced him in many ways. What I'm trying to say is that he's only 16, and there is still time for him to learn to make his own decisions. He's a smart kid, and he can think for himself, and just because his parents believed one thing, does not neccessarily mean that he has to follow in their foot steps. -Virginiaelizabeth

I agree completely with this, as well as whoever brought up the immaturity. So far, he's had no reason to question the beliefs his parents instilled in him. And I think for the most part he saw it all as a game. Definitely when he was 12, it was a game. Remember, he couldn't see thestrals (although I guess he can now). That's why it was such a shock when it started threatening his life. He had a narrow escape, really, and I can't believe he'll continue on blindly as he has in the past.



wynnleaf - May 26, 2006 8:34 am (#1431 of 1825)
I doubt if anyone thinks that it's completely impossible for a person 16-17 years old to change their opinions and attitudes, even if they seem fairly strong and even if they were brought up that way by their parents. Certainly, people do relatively often give up racist attitudes that they learned from their parents.

It's certainly not impossible for a person like Draco to change. I don't think anyone really thinks that.

But within the canon of HP, and as we try to guess at what will happen in Book 7, we have not seen the slightest indication that Draco has changed any of his opinions about "mudbloods" versus purebloods. The only thing that we've seen is that he's become very frightened that LV might kill him and/or his parents, but even with that fear he couldn't directly kill DD when face to face with him. We don't have any indication that the other near-murders had any affect on his attitude toward killing.

The question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not it's possible for a person like Draco to change, but whether or not we're likely to see Draco change in Book 7. Since we have not seen any indication of a change of heart up to this point, I very much doubt we'll see it in Book 7. After all, a change of heart regarding muggleborns is going to take a lot of time in the book focused on Draco to pull off the change. It's possible that we'll see that, but that is not what has been set up for us at the end of HBP. All that has been set up is that Draco has had to confront the fact that he couldn't kill face to face and he's terrified of LV.

Because of the amount of time that would have to be spent in the book to change Draco, plus the fact that we've so far seen no indication of a change in Draco's politics and attitudes, I don't feel there's much likelihood that Draco will change his politics and attitudes in Book 7.



haymoni - May 26, 2006 8:34 am (#1432 of 1825)
Draco uses "Mudblood" like some people use racial slurs. They've used them for so long, they just come right out of their mouths without them even thinking about it. If your parents talk that way and don't do anything to correct you when you talk that way, you will speak like that no matter where you are or who is around.

Until someone points out how ignorant you sound and tells you that what you are saying is offensive, you don't even know that what you are doing is unacceptable.

And you usually don't change your behavior until you change your mind to do so.

Nobody of any consequence, except for Dumbledore, has told Draco that his racist behavior is unacceptable.

Therefore he will not change.



Weeny Owl - May 26, 2006 9:26 am (#1433 of 1825)
The question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not it's possible for a person like Draco to change, but whether or not we're likely to see Draco change in Book 7.

That's a good point, wynnleaf. Perhaps if the books were about Draco we'd have a chance to see something, but with it mostly from Harry's point of view, we really have no idea what makes Draco tick.

There are questions I'd love to have JKR answer, such as what exactly happened between the end of fifth year and when they encountered Draco in Madam Malkin's. How much influence does Bella have with him, for instance.

Nobody of any consequence, except for Dumbledore, has told Draco that his racist behavior is unacceptable.

That's another good point, haymoni. It would be lovely if we could see Draco pondering what Dumbledore said and then have an epiphany, but with it being Harry's story, I can't see that happening.



Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2006 5:55 pm (#1434 of 1825)
Whether or not Draco can change is a hard one to call, because Jo is not setting up a clear pattern of who can be redeemed. She says blood and ancestry are not what are most important. She has Harry who was raised both abused and neglected turning out surprisingly well adjusted, then she turns around and Tom Riddle was practically doomed from conception. She confuses me with her double standards.

I'm not concerned about what Draco has said, especially the things he said in front of other people, when he was clearly to me tryign to be a big shot. I'm concerned about a child that age being sucked into the world he's been sucked into and not being able to get out.



sere35 - May 26, 2006 6:08 pm (#1435 of 1825)
I was just trying to say that you all seem to be trying to force your cultural and ethical beliefs on the wizarding world. They seem to have a much more leniant easy going attitude to killing and violence in general. While they dont agree with murder most of the characters seem to have no problem what so ever in killing someone if they think they deserve it.



Catherine - May 26, 2006 6:40 pm (#1436 of 1825)
I was just trying to say that you all seem to be trying to force your cultural and ethical beliefs on the wizarding world.

I believe that JKR has taken a clear stand in her novels about what is ethical. Let's stick to what JKR writes about.



timrew - May 26, 2006 8:27 pm (#1437 of 1825)
You seem to have taken my remarks on Draco to heart. Let's face it - no-one was more anti-Draco than me. I thought he was a lowlife scumbag who didn't deserve the ground that was coming to him.

But after HBP, I'm not so sure.

I don't know what's going to happen to him in book 7. Maybe he'll die on the side of the DEs, maybe he'll repent and rescue Harry.

I'm only going off what I read in HBP. Sure, he let the DEs into Hogwarts, but he couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore; and that's what made me say what I did. There's hope for him yet.

There may not be, it remains to be seen, but there is an element of hope...........



geauxtigers - May 26, 2006 9:12 pm (#1438 of 1825)
I was just trying to say that you all seem to be trying to force your cultural and ethical beliefs on the wizarding world.

I agree with Catherine here, I think that we should stick to what JKR writes about. Just because there are some cultures somewhere in time that didn't have a problem with murder, does not mean that thats how it is today. JKR has clearly shown what most people believe and that is that killing is moraly and ethically wrong. I don't think that anyone is trying to impress their beliefs on the wizarding world because our beliefs are the same a most the wizarding world.

Tim I agree the biggest thing that makes me think that Draco will some how turn his life around or choose the right path in the end is that I don't think hes evil, he couldn't kill Dumbledore. I think hope is a big part of it as well.



virginiaelizabeth - May 26, 2006 9:22 pm (#1439 of 1825)
I completely agree with you Tim, I have always liked Draco as a character much in the same way that I like Snape and Peeves, and Umbridge. His awful personality and terrible racial comments add to the story, and make it more realistic, without Malfoy, the books just wouldn't be the same.HBP is what made me think that there is hope for Draco, I never would have considered giving him any second chances(at least in my mind) because there was never a reason to give him a second chance, he was the bully. But after reading HBP, I saw the other side of Draco and then it occured to me that he may not beable to or want to live up to those horrible things he's said about people. I have always thought that he was nothing more than a cruel big shoted bully, but now I'm not so sure...I dunno, it's like what tim said there's hope for him, and it just depends on whether or not you choose to believe its there and see the good in anyone, and in my case I do.



Weeny Owl - May 26, 2006 11:33 pm (#1440 of 1825)
Yet, Tim, don't forget that he DID try to kill Dumbledore... twice. He couldn't do it face to face, yet there were two attempts by him.

Draco has been put in an awful position. Kill or be killed, and not only him but his family. That isn't easy for anyone, but... at the beginning of the school year on the train he was his usual arrogant and cocky self. It wasn't until he started having problems that he found he had a reason to worry. Even Bella said Draco seemed enthusiastic.

I don't see Draco as either good or evil. There are too many shades of grey in there, and what I see most in him is weakness and self-importance. He could easily be this generation's Wormtail, but I don't see him as this generation's Lucius or MacNair or one of the other more ruthless Death Eaters.

Draco was practically patting himself on the back for being favored by Voldemort and being given a task. When reality hit him in the face and he found that failure wasn't an option, he worried about himself and his family. On the tower he never once said he was wrong or that what he was supposed to do was wrong.

All we know for sure is that he couldn't kill Dumbledore face to face. One isolated incident doesn't make him a saint.

As I said before, not being able to kill doesn't make someone a good person any more than a man not being able to kill doesn't stop him from beating his wife, his children, or kicking his dog.

There are plenty of people in prisons who have done disgusting, awful, horrible, sadistic things, things that have ruined lives, yet those people never killed anyone. I just don't see Draco changing because he couldn't "pull the trigger," so to speak. He's the same person he always was, and he's still a threat as long as he holds the same racist beliefs.



timrew - May 27, 2006 1:46 am (#1441 of 1825)
Weeny Owl:- One isolated incident doesn't make him a saint.

I quite agree, Weeny Owl. I'm merely speculating will there be redemption for Draco? From hating the little git, I'm hoping that he does come round.

He'll never be his father, that's for sure; he may turn out like Wormtail, that's on the cards.

But will he see good before the end of book 7? That remains to be seen..........



wynnleaf - May 27, 2006 7:47 am (#1442 of 1825)
It is true that in HBP, JKR did show us that Draco isn't wholeheartedly following LV's commands. So there is the possibility that she'll continue to grow that part of Draco in Book 7 and have him completely, or mostly, turn his back on LV -- including the politics and attitudes associated with LV.

virginiaelizabeth,

I'm going to use your comment on "the other side of Draco," a lot, and I don't mean to be offensive by repeating the phrase often -- it's just convenient.

I'm curious as to what we've seen that is the "other side of Draco." What are the indicators of "another side?" Yes, Draco couldn't kill DD face to face. But he was quite able to attempt to murder DD two other times, as long as he could do it from a distance. Remember, he knew that Katie was almost killed from the necklace curse. Yet that didn't stop him or dissuade him from using the poisoned mead. We really have not seen that Draco can't kill, or is unwilling to bring about the death of another. We've only seen that Draco can't kill with his own hand in a face-to-face confrontation.

What, then, is the "other side" of Draco? How can we say that the "other side" is the Draco that can't bring about another person's death? Because he was willing to bring about someone else's death. The other side seems to be that which is squeamish about killing face to face. I just don't see that as being more than very slightly positive.

It's possible that JKR could use Draco's realization that he can't kill DD face-to-face as a point of change for him -- a time when he realizes that killing anyone whether face-to-face or not, whether muggle, muggleborn, or pureblood, is wrong. Certainly JKR could use that incident to change Draco. It's just that at this point, we haven't really seen a change in Draco, we've just seen that he can't directly kill DD.



Weeny Owl - May 27, 2006 8:47 am (#1443 of 1825)
I just can't accept Draco as ever being a good person.

I could accept him as being the next Snape, though. Not in the whole bad-guy-turned-spy thing, but teaching Potions and tormenting Gryffindors without ever actually doing any physical harm to anyone.

I'm not saying I think he'll end up teaching at Hogwarts since I don't think he'll survive, but if he did survive, I could see him with that type of tempermant.

Regardless of what happened on the tower, Draco is on the run at least from the Ministry and the Order. We don't know if he and Snape are hiding out together or if they're all with Voldemort somewhere. Draco's future, including his possible redemption and beliefs, may lie in how much influence the people around him have.

Is he going to want to prove himself since he failed on the tower? Will he become ruthless in order to protect him and his family. Will he allow people such as Bella to shape his mind? Will he become disgusted at what he's asked to do, the same way Regulus was, and want out?

If JKR does make Draco somewhat redeemed, she'll have to be very careful in how she goes about it in order to make it believable.



Solitaire - May 27, 2006 9:29 am (#1444 of 1825)
Until someone points out how ignorant you sound and tells you that what you are saying is offensive, you don't even know that what you are doing is unacceptable.

I really do not believe this is the case with Draco. The first time Harry heard the term Mudblood was out on the Quidditch pitch, when Draco used it to Hermione.

"No one asked your opinion, you fiIthy little Mudblood," he spat.
Harry knew at once that Malfoy had said something really bad because there was an instant uproar at his words. Flint had to dive in front of Malfoy to stop Fred and George jumping on him, Alicia shrieked, "How dare you!" and Ron plunged his hand into his robes, pulled out his wand, yelling, "You'll pay for that one, Malfoy!" and pointed it furiously under Flint's arm at Malfoy's face.

Harry, who'd never heard the term Mudblood in his life, knew immediately that it was a despicable slur simply by the reactions of the others. Draco knew the term was offensive, and that is why he used it. He intended to offend. As aware as the Malfoys are of maintaining a respectable position in the Wizarding World, I believe they know exactly how offensive such terms are and have taught Draco very carefully that it is not always politic to repeat in public the things that are said at home. But Draco can't resist slamming the Trio whenever possible, can he?

Solitaire



geauxtigers - May 27, 2006 9:37 am (#1445 of 1825)
I just can't accept Draco as ever being a good person.

I don't mean this rude but humor on my part but, I think we have reached a parting of the ways!



Magic Words - May 27, 2006 9:59 am (#1446 of 1825)
I would hesitate to use the words "good person," myself. Even if he changes sides, he'll always be more like Snape, Regulus, or Wormtail than most of the Gryffindors.

The other side seems to be that which is squeamish about killing face to face. I just don't see that as being more than very slightly positive. -Wynnleaf

Even if you chalk up his inability to kill to squeamishness or cowardice, doesn't it mean that, deep down or even subconsciously, he realizes it's wrong to kill? If you take the moral side out of the situation, Draco had nothing to be afraid of. His plan had succeeded, Dumbledore was in no position to fight back, and all he had to do was say the spell and he would be safe from Voldemort as well (temporarily). The only risk was that he would take too long and someone would make it up the stairs. So why was he afraid to go through with it?



Soul Search - May 27, 2006 10:30 am (#1447 of 1825)
Draco escaping Hogwarts with Snape and Voldemort's reception may determine Draco's ultimate fate.

Draco and Snape didn't leave at exactly the same time, but let's assume they went to the same place or will join up. Snape is, at least a bit, fond of Draco. Regardless of Snape's motives in making the Unbreakable Vow, it had to be done, in part, because of Snape's feelings for Draco.

Snape is in a unique position to steer Draco toward "good" or "evil." Snape's prior experience with Voldemort would be the perfect lesson for Draco. Snape's experience could clearly show Draco the dangers of supporting Voldemort.

Unfortunately, Snape can't tell Draco anything without giving away that he is really against Voldemort and secretly working to see his destruction. No way can Snape trust Draco with that knowledge; Draco would rat him out in a minute.

Voldemort could also direct Draco's fate. If Voldemort welcomes Draco with a few atta boys and pats on the back, telling him he won't kill his parents, Draco would be in his camp forever, becoming his most devoted follower.

If Voldemort demeans Draco or sets death eaters after him, then Draco would quickly have that epiphany about Voldemort and the evil side.

From what we have seen of Voldemort he isn't exactly free with his pats on the back. He will torture Draco, then assign him another impossible task. Something like capturing Harry and bringing him to Voldemort.

Draco may then have misgivings, but he won't be in any position to do anything about it.



geauxtigers - May 27, 2006 11:07 am (#1448 of 1825)
Magic Words, I agree completly with what you've said. He won't turn around and become the next Harry but he won't go so deep as to become the next Voldemort. What you were saying about Draco killing and removing the moral stuff. It would've been interesting if Draco actually had atttempted to kill DD. I wonder if he could've done it? Moody makes a big point that the whole class could yell AK at him and he might only get a nosebleed. Just a thought...



Weeny Owl - May 27, 2006 12:28 pm (#1449 of 1825)
I would hesitate to use the words "good person," myself. Even if he changes sides, he'll always be more like Snape, Regulus, or Wormtail than most of the Gryffindors.

That's basically what I mean. I don't mean that Draco couldn't function in the Wizarding World and pretty much be a law-abiding citizen, but it would be only because he would understand that the alternative wouldn't be good for him. I don't believe that he will ever regret his opinions on blood or that he would ever willingly embrace a world full of Muggles and be happy about it knowing his previous racist views were wrong.

I can see Draco mirroring Snape's behavior, but I can't see Draco becoming chums with the majority of Hogwarts students and visiting various classmates and having tea and such. He is too contemptuous of most people to befriend anyone he doesn't feel is up to his standards.

I can see Draco brooding and sulking and wishing that Voldemort had ended things so that Draco's world would be with him receiving vast amounts of respect for his money, while people without pure blood are exiled from the Wizarding World.

Draco seems to be the typical person who has a great amount of ability but never uses it because he's too busy being jealous over what someone else has or resenting not being the top dog in his peers' eyes.



haymoni - May 27, 2006 2:29 pm (#1450 of 1825)
Solitare - Draco may have known that what he was saying was vile and racist, but he had no reason to care. He wasn't going to face any kind of consequence from his parents or from his friends. I think the person that tells you that what you are doing is offensive has to be someone that you respect or at least like.

Draco was surrounded by his Slytherin buddies and he could care less that the Twins reacted as they did.

Dumbledore is the first person of any consequence that tells Draco that what he is doing is wrong. And then follows it up with an offer to help him.


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Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 5:26 am

timrew - May 27, 2006 4:12 pm (#1451 of 1825)
haymoni:- Dumbledore is the first person of any consequence that tells Draco that what he is doing is wrong. And then follows it up with an offer to help him.

Exactly, haymoni. So was Draco responding with an act of kindness in not killing Dumbledore, or was he being the snivelling coward he always has been, and he can't go through with it face-to-face?

Either way, it was the first time ever he has shown an act of kindness (or was it?) in any of the books so far.

And don't forget, he was seen crying over going through with it.............or was he crying about getting caught?

Only book 7 will tell us.........



Solitaire - May 27, 2006 5:08 pm (#1452 of 1825)
In B&B (CoS, Ch. 4) Lucius made a particular point of telling Draco to guard his personal feelings about Harry in public:

"... I would remind you that it is not - prudent - to appear less than fond of Harry Potter, not when most of our kind regard him as the hero who made the Dark Lord disappear ..."

I can't believe that Lucius had not coached Draco about other sentiments and comments that were and were not appropriate to air in "mixed company" (meaning Wizards who did not hold the Malfoys' pureblood prejudices). Lucius was far too meticulous about maintaining his "image" and his status with "those who counted" in the Ministry not to have made Draco aware that his behavior, too, was important.

I stand by my statement that Draco knew perfectly well he was being offensive--he just didn't give a Blast-Ended Skrewt! JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



haymoni - May 27, 2006 5:43 pm (#1453 of 1825)
Oh I agree that he knew he was being offensive - I just mean that he had no reason to worry about it. If everyone around you thinks as you do, you have no reason to feel bad about hurting someone else or embarrassing them.

I have always thought that from Day 1, Lucius told Draco to befriend Harry. Hence, his eagerness on the train.

Tim - I think Draco was afraid of dying. He'd do anything to save his own skin. He is a Slytherin - without even having to put the Sorting Hat all the way on!!



timrew - May 27, 2006 9:09 pm (#1454 of 1825)
I think that JKR has got us all 'at it' again. She tells us 'all' and 'nothing' at the same time, just to get us all arguing...........

Roll on book 7, I say!..................



wynnleaf - May 28, 2006 1:54 pm (#1455 of 1825)
On a different aspect of Draco's mission....

Someone mentioned on another site that it was interesting the parallel between LV sending Draco to kill DD, while DD is preparing Harry to kill LV.

Narcissa considers this pure malevolence on LV's part -- trying to get Draco killed as punishment for Lucius bungling of the MOM "fiasco." She asks Snape to protect Draco.

But DD is preparing Harry to go against LV. -- Oh, and maybe Snape is supposed to protect him, too...

Anyway, it's an interesting parallel.



journeymom - May 29, 2006 8:16 pm (#1456 of 1825)
Whoa, wynnleaf! I don't think I ever consciously made that parallel between Draco killing Dd and Harry killing LV. And Snape has to trail along behind both of them, keeping them alive. Interesting.



Fawkes Egg - Jun 10, 2006 4:55 am (#1457 of 1825)
I think Draco was genuinely terrified of Dumbledore even when he found him unarmed: Dumbledore is probably quite capable of looking after himself even without a wand. The kindness he got from Dumbledore threw him completely: much easier to try and kill someone who's showing you anger, hatred or disgust than someone who's offering to get you out of the horrible situation you're in.



Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 9:15 am (#1458 of 1825)
The kindness he got from Dumbledore threw him completely

This might well be true. Most people probably respond to Draco's bullying with anger or fear. Dumbledore responded with gentleness and almost a bit of pity in his manner. I'm sure Draco has never seen much of either in his lifetime, other than from Narcissa.

Interesting idea ... Draco literally disarms Dumbledore; Dumbledore disarms Draco figuratively. Hm ...

Solitaire



Greyback Hunter - Jun 14, 2006 2:14 pm (#1459 of 1825)
Let us not forget that regardless of the discussion going on here about Draco's attitudes and the path that he will take in book 7, it's how he will be viewed in the wizarding world (the world of the books) that will count the most. Those in the that world will see him as someone who was at the top of the tower when Dumbledore was killed. They will see him as the one who enabled those deatheaters, including Fenrir Greyback, into a school full of children. This will form their perception of Draco probably for all time. To paraphrase Joeseph Kennedy, 'It's not what you are but what people think you are that counts'.



haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 4:26 pm (#1460 of 1825)
I like your name, Greyback Hunter.

I agree with you, too.

The kid's marked as a Death Eater. There's no turning back.

Whatever will poor Pansy do???



Choices - Jun 14, 2006 6:11 pm (#1461 of 1825)
She could join the DE's Ladies' Auxiliary? She could serve tea and sweets at the DE meetings. LOL



Regan of Gong - Jun 27, 2006 4:58 am (#1462 of 1825)
Oooh, discrimination there, Choices.

Crabbe and Goyle are perfectly entitled to try serving tea and sweets as well.



Jewel - Jun 27, 2006 5:02 pm (#1463 of 1825)
Regan of Gong-----Crabbe and Goyle are perfectly entitled to try serving tea and sweets as well.

Yeah, they could get some more Polyjuice Potion and serve as the sweet little first years again!



Choices - Jun 27, 2006 6:30 pm (#1464 of 1825)
No, no, no - put down that Equal Rights banner, Regan. I was only joking. LOL I'm sure Pansy will be a full member of the DE's. No discrimination here! :-)



Regan of Gong - Jun 27, 2006 11:15 pm (#1465 of 1825)
No, no, no, I was trying to continue the joke.



Fawkes Egg - Jun 29, 2006 3:13 pm (#1466 of 1825)
LOL! I like the DE's Ladies' Auxiliary! I'm sure Pansy will follow Draco into the DEs if Voldemort will recruit her. Draco's Aunt Bella is certainly not auxiliary - and given her influence and Narcissa's influence in Draco's life, I'm beginning to wonder what Draco sees in such a simpering sycophant as Pansy. Obviously he enjoys being surrounded by sycophants (note Crabbe and Goyle), but is there more to his relationship with Pansy than that?

Draco's relationships with his mother, his aunt, and Pansy, are the difference between him and Voldemort. Draco has known love, perhaps more unconditionally from his mother than from anyone else. We're familiar with Voldemort's and Dumbledore's views on love (in fact I believe JKR once said that Voldemort could not do the things he's done if he'd ever known love). This is almost certainly the defining factor in Draco's future path - and it'll be interesting to see how his relationships within these three women develop and shape his choices in Book 7.



Soul Search - Jun 29, 2006 5:29 pm (#1467 of 1825)
Fawkes Egg,

I like what you are saying. Bella, and Narcissa will influence Draco more in book seven than previously. Not sure about Pansy.

Yet, in Madam Malkins' shop, he seems resentful of his mother's attention.

In all six books most of what Draco says starts with "My father ... ." I can't help believe that Lucius has had far more affect on Draco's upbringing than Narcissa, and this might overwhelmingly direct his future.



Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 8:52 pm (#1468 of 1825)
I do not think Bella loves Draco ... and I think Narcissa realized that she didn't particularly care what happened to him when they were at Spinner's End. I believe Narcissa now knows that if she and Draco reach a point where they must escape Voldemort's wrath, they will have to look elsewhere for asylum, if it is needed.

Solitaire



TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 8:58 pm (#1469 of 1825)
Definately Solitaire! Cannot hide from him with his biggest Fan!



Fawkes Egg - Jun 30, 2006 5:23 pm (#1470 of 1825)
Bella doesn't love Draco, but she is an important feature of Draco's life and seems to be carrying on with training Draco in Dark Arts and things like Occulmency - I'm sure this was Lucius' biggest influence in Draco's life before he ended up in Azkaban. Lucius laid the foundations for what Draco is doing now, and Bella is adding to that. Narcissa seems to have been in the background of Draco's life until recently, but he does care about her I think: he certainly saw red when Harry insulted her in GoF.

Bella does seem to care about Narcissa - the way she tried to stop Narcissa going to Snape seems to indicate this. But she doesn't have any empathy with the bonds of motherhood (most childless women do have some clue there!), as she demonstrates with her "I would be proud to sacrifice my children" spiel.

I think you're right about Narcissa, Solitaire. Bella would not offer them sanctuary from Voldemort because she'd see giving Draco up as the logical thing to do. She's definitely his Number One Fan in a very Kathy Bates/Misery kind of way!



Lilly P - Jul 1, 2006 7:13 am (#1471 of 1825)
I'm beginning to wonder what Draco sees in such a simpering sycophant as Pansy. - Fawkes Egg

Just like most girls choose guys that remind them of thier father, most guys usualy choose girls who are like thier mother, I can see Narcisa fawning over Lucious and catering to him, setting the example for Draco that what he should look for in a girl are thoes same "simpering sycophant" characteristics.



Soul Search - Jul 1, 2006 7:51 am (#1472 of 1825)
Lilly P,

I just don't see the "simpering sycophant" attribute for Narcissa. I would suggest the opposite: cold, calculating, determined.

The way she set up Snape in "Spinner's End" was masterful. She got exactly what she wanted out of Snape: he had to help and protect Draco.



Pamzter - Jul 1, 2006 9:42 am (#1473 of 1825)
Soul -

I've always felt kind of sorry for Narcissa during the chapter at Spinners End. Mother love, desperate and weeping to help her son, you know? I'm not sure it's what you intended, but now I've gone back and re-read the chapter with the thought that her tears were all an act and she was totally manipulating Snape. Very interesting take. Makes her all the more evil. Maybe even on assignment to do so from LV.

It would also be interesting if the one thing Snape seriously can't manage is a woman in trouble. And it makes me wonder if, back when Snape was betraying and then repenting his actions regarding the Potters, if another woman was involved. Maybe she manipulated him him in to the betrayal somehow. May it was even Cissy?

Or maybe Lily's tears made him go to Dumbledore.

or . . .. . ???



Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 9:45 am (#1474 of 1825)
I do not know if simpering sycophancy (great alliteration, btw) is a quality Draco is seeking only in a girlfriend. I have always assumed that, like his dad seemed to do with Fudge and everyone else, he enjoys having those around him fawn over him and give deference to everything he says and does.

Solitaire



Fawkes Egg - Jul 1, 2006 11:36 am (#1475 of 1825)
Wow, Soul Search, I never thought of the Spinner's End scene that way before. But then Narcissa is Bella's sister, and probably picked up a thing or two about manipulation through being married to Lucius.

Narcissa's love of Draco is genuine, but that doesn't preclude her manipulating others to protect him and herself. In fact it would probably make her more likely to manipulate others. Plus, she is a Slytherin: the cunning of all Slytherins has to be factored into any appraisal of their actions.



Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 11:48 am (#1476 of 1825)
Still, her response to Bella when they are alone--"There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!--seems to indicate sincere distress, almost hysteria. She really does seem to be a "woman on the verge of a nervous breakdown."

Bella is certainly a high-strung, histrionic personality. Perhaps Narcissa is, as well. BTW, I am not saying Narcissa is a nice woman. Her remark to Harry in the robe shop is pretty nasty. But I suppose even she could be capable of coming unglued, given what has happened to her husband and what she fears may happen to her son. Just playing Devil's Advocate here ... she may very well be a conniving, DE hussy!

Solitaire



Lilly P - Jul 1, 2006 11:53 am (#1477 of 1825)
But then Narcissa is Bella's sister, and probably picked up a thing or two about manipulation through being married to Lucius. -Fawkes Egg

I agree Fawkes Egg, though she may play the "simpering sycophant" to Lucious, a mother who is protecting her child will use any means that she has learned to protect said child. While she IS quite cunning and calculated with Snape, I see her and Pansy being quite similar the rest of the time.



Choices - Jul 1, 2006 12:20 pm (#1478 of 1825)
Yes, I think "desperation" is the key word here when it comes to Narcissa. She wants to protect her child and she will go to any lengths to do that......lying, manipulation, trickery, you name it. Her request to Snape was partly real and partly calculated - she did whatever it took to convince him to look after Draco.



haymoni - Jul 2, 2006 5:52 am (#1479 of 1825)
Pansy worships the ground Draco walks on - she feeds his ego.

I still wonder why we haven't seen a "Parkinson" other than Pansy show up anywhere.

Not on the tapestry, not mentioned at the graveyard, not mentioned by Voldy or even in Sluggy's memory.



Soul Search - Jul 2, 2006 7:43 am (#1480 of 1825)
I don't think we have seen the last of the Malfoys, and understanding Narcissa may be key to anticipating what happens to Draco.

I can't figure out if Narcissa is/was a full death eater or not; I see signs both ways. It is clear, however, that she understands the danger of being close to Voldemort and will want Draco to distance himself, if he can. Maybe Snape will help her remove Draco from Voldemort's influence.



Midori - Jul 3, 2006 3:50 am (#1481 of 1825)
All of you are right in your own way, but you forget a couple of things.
Narcissa, even if her love for son is sincere and deep, even if she claims she would do anything for her son (or as she says "There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!") -BUT at the same time how egoistical is she! And especially, is that love taintless if it harms other persons? if it forces other to do terrible things and can be extremely dangerous to their lives?
This fact I dont like about her at all. Its easy to understand with simple comparing Cissy with Lily.
Would Lily run and beg other to protect and save her son? We dont know exactly, canon doesnt give us such information (yet), but we can assume that she could probably {ask Snape/Dumbledore/whoever}, because she Is Mother. But would Lily extort the other person with all means to do what she asks? Would Lily drive other to a corner and force to vow with his life? Knowing that if person wouldnt be able to commit the deed he would be surely dead? Ohh, no, that IS the difference between Lily and Narcissa. And this feature in Narcissa is disgusting.
Good will and desire to help- its enough for normal person. Dumbledore (and Lily, too, I believe) would be enough of it. Because only this matters, its natural and comes from the heart.And IMO it works better than make anything under compulsion and realizing a danger of life.
But forcing other to vow with his own life- unnatural, crooked, and this shows us the true 'I' of a person.



Dobby Socks - Jul 3, 2006 6:50 am (#1482 of 1825)
Midori,

I don’t believe Narcissa is a good person, but I think the point is that we saw a different aspect of her character in “Spinner’s End.” She does have at least one good quality: putting her son’s welfare above all else. Which gave me some sympathy for her, even though I still can’t say I like her. I can at least now say that I like her better than Lucius (which isn’t saying much, but still… it’s more than I thought of her before HBP.)

This in no way makes her good through and through, nor does it equate her with Lily. You're right: if we look at what Lily did and compare it to what Narcissa's done, there is a stark ethical difference because of the means they used to try to save their sons. But I do find Rowling’s comparison of the mother/son dynamics throughout the story very interesting (and certainly something she did on purpose to make a point – just don’t ask me precisely what the final point will be, because I don’t know yet. ) We have Lily/Harry, Merope/Tom, Eileen/Severus, and now Narcissa/Draco. How much did each mother do to protect her child, and what effect did that have on the child’s development?

Narcissa did use very questionable means to achieve her end, but I think that was her only real option. She did employ deception and manipulation. And she did set a trap of sorts. At the same time, Severus did take a risk (or two, depending on whether the reader thinks he knew or figured out Draco’s mission before he took the vow.) And it backfired. Maybe how each mother achieved her goal (if she had such a goal in the first place) will figure into the results of this mother/child theme. Maybe it will figure into the plot of the final book and Narcissa will have to suffer because of all the bad things she’s done.

Malfoy-bashing is almost a hobby for me, but I have to say I’ve developed at least a little sympathy for both Narcissa and Draco because of HBP. There are an endless number of topics where I could insert the following comment, but since I’m here at the moment, this is where I’ll say it. I might have said it before – I’ve meant to but I don’t think I’ve ever gotten around to it. One thing I really like about JKR’s writing is that almost none of her characters are flawless, or conversely, lacking an ounce of good. This makes them infinitely more interesting than if they were wholly good or evil. And it makes them much more human and believable. I’m glad she’s added at least a drop of this to Narcissa and Draco. Even though I still don’t think highly of either of them.

Since I meant to post to this thread yesterday, but ran out of steam, I want to add that I agree with Choices 100% (post 1478). Also, I agree with Soul Search when she speculates Maybe Snape will help her remove Draco from Voldemort's influence. I see this as a real possibility, although my agenda for Snape in HP7 is getting a bit unwieldy.



Soul Search - Jul 3, 2006 7:28 am (#1483 of 1825)
Dobby Socks. Soul Search = "HE."

Narcissa took a great risk going to Snape and talking about Draco's "impossible task." Just that act could have gotten her killed; might still, come to think of it. She also said things to Snape that could get her a good crucio session from Voldemort. She played Snape with Draco, but she was also acting to save Lucius and herself, as well.

Lily didn't have any time for thoughts and planning. It was either throw herself in front of Harry ... or watch him die. Different situations, I think. It is fortunate she had time, or had previously planned, for the "ancient magic" that saved Harry from Voldemort's AK.

Narcissa's approach to saving her son was, actually, better than Lily's. Narcissa is still around to provide continuing protection. Lily isn't.

We can't be sure, yet, if Narcissa's efforts to save Draco actually worked. Voldemort could arbitrarily decide that Draco failed and kill the Malfoy's, anyway. Voldemort is that way and he is really angry with Lucius. My read is that Voldemort decided to kill Lucius, but wanted to have some fun with him first. Lucius was doomed no matter what Draco did.

Back to the "is Narcissa a DE" question.

I recently re-read the graveyard scene in GoF. No hint of Narcissa being there, although Lucius was. I am leaning towards Narcissa not being a full-fledged death eater, with a dark mark and all.

She might have, with Lucius, been involved in the muggle baiting at the world cup. Hard to tell, but since Draco was alone, I think she must have been.

Also, it is implied in "Spinner's End" that she knows Voldemort and has been in his presense. Her acts in "Spinner's End" clearly show she is not, and perhaps never has been, as devoted to Voldemort as sister Bella.

The robe shop scene shows that Narcissa is not fond of Harry or Dumbledore.

I am thinking that Narcissa is not a death eater nor a devotee of Voldemort in any way. She was just dragged into events because of Lucius and her sister. I am not suggesting that Narcissa is a "nice person," but neither is she a Bellatrix. She would very much like to be out of Voldemort's influence, forever.



Choices - Jul 3, 2006 11:03 am (#1484 of 1825)
It is interesting that Narcissa wanted desperately to save her son, and it did not faze her to ask Snape to put his life on the line to save Draco. If anyone "died" for Draco, it should have been Narcissa (like Lily did for Harry).



Dobby Socks - Jul 3, 2006 11:09 am (#1485 of 1825)
Soul Search,

Sorry. I tried to go back through all the greeting threads at one point and literally make notes of who was which gender if they didn’t otherwise specify.

I agree that Narcissa was taking a big risk in “Spinner’s End.” I also agree that Draco and Narcissa are still at great risk. They really are of no use to Voldemort that I can see except to punish Lucius. Sorry that I neglected to say this, but I was trying to respond to Midori’s issues, and probably got sidetracked as well.

I don’t think anyone’s a Bellatrix. At least no one we’ve come to know like we’ve come to know her.

And, for the record, I doubt Narcissa has a Dark Mark. But that’s mostly just a hunch based on minimal canon. But I don’t know that it matters to the next book. She’s still in just as much danger. You guys (a regional expression that doesn't imply gender, BTW) can debate the details. In terms of character, I had always thought of her as pretty much following Lucius’ lead. But prior to “Spinner’s End” there’s not that much to go on.

Lily didn't have any time for thoughts and planning. It was either throw herself in front of Harry ... or watch him die. Different situations, I think. It is fortunate she had time, or had previously planned, for the "ancient magic" that saved Harry from Voldemort's AK.

Narcissa's approach to saving her son was, actually, better than Lily's. Narcissa is still around to provide continuing protection. Lily isn't.

They are different situations, but I think they both did / are doing the best they could/can under bad circumstances. Each in her own way. As far as we know, Lily’s way was more ethical. But I don’t think Narcissa had a choice. What would Lily have done if the situations were reversed? And Narcissa? I think those are interesting questions.

Soul Search, I’m unsure about how much planning or not planning actually goes into the blood protection. Have we found this out yet? We are still speculating, I think, unless we can extrapolate from Dumbledore's extension of the protection. Which I don't think we necessarily can. Please correct me if I’ve missed something. I tend to do that.

Midori, you seemed to be setting Lily and Narcissa up as polar opposites in terms of what they did in their given situations. I don’t think that’s the case, but, from what we’ve seen, Narcissa had to resort to some questionable measures that Lily didn’t. I may have overstated it, but I can never resist taking a dig at Lucius.



Magic Words - Jul 3, 2006 12:19 pm (#1486 of 1825)
It is fortunate she had time, or had previously planned, for the "ancient magic" that saved Harry from Voldemort's AK.

I don't understand this. I always thought she invoked the ancient magic accidentally by the act of standing in front of Harry.



Steve Newton - Jul 3, 2006 12:22 pm (#1487 of 1825)
I think that you are right, Magic. Her act of voluntarily placing her life in danger released the magic.



Dobby Socks - Jul 4, 2006 1:21 am (#1488 of 1825)
Magic Words,

Yes. I thought that was pretty much solid canon (I say “pretty much” because there is still room for things to change.)

I’m just trying to understand that part of Soul Search’s post. And I know I’ve seen the idea floated somewhere (not very often, maybe only once,) that there was some preliminary magical work that Lily had to do in order to invoke the “ancient magic.” I think what I saw was mentioned alongside Ollivander’s comment that her wand was particularly good for charms. That maybe she had to do some charm work to prepare, and possibly she had instruction from Dumbledore or someone else.

I was always under the impression that the “ancient magic” was simply a mother’s willingness to sacrifice herself for her child. Which is what Soul Search seems to be saying in the first part of that quotation. It’s the second part I don’t understand, so I’m wondering if either A.) I missed something in the text, or maybe missed a theory that was discussed (good chance of that) or B.) I’m misreading Soul Search’s post.



Midori - Jul 4, 2006 2:13 am (#1489 of 1825)
Dobby Socks,
Thank you for replying on my post.
But I do find Rowling’s comparison of the mother/son dynamics throughout the story very interesting
That's the way I feel about Rowling books too. She is able to show us the same idea or strain from different points of view and the shapes same conception (as love, hate etc) transforms into depending on character she describes.
Regarding the matter of comparing Lily/Narcissa, you know, it comes obviously, as theme of mother's love (and love in general) is one of the main ideas in HP books.
As for Narcissa, I believe she justifies a meaning of name author gave her! Its not JKR named her "Narcissa" for no particular reason. We all know that JKR's names given to characters speak for themselves.
And inspite of her so-called love for her son, Narcissa thinks about herself first. She exposes not her own life in the first place- but life of other person (Snape).Yeah, she makes all her best to got Draco out of troubles but makes it at someone else's expense. By the way, Soul Search, I think quite the contrary on this subject. I feel like it was very comfortable for Voldemort that Narcissa pushed Severus to that deed. I even think he could somehow put this idea into her head, give veiled hint to her. It wasnt that diffucult, as for mother in despair it would be natural to go searching any way out of that situation. And who would she ask for help? Who is powerful magician loyal to Voldemort? Who is on friendly (I would even say close)terms with Malfoys? And, finally, who can be near Draco while school year in Hogwarts ? simply because he works there? Yes, answer is too obvious-Snape.
Its very handy to LV, imagine, he could test his "most loyal servant" and get rid of the most dangerous enemy, to kill two birds with one stone in other words. So, even in case if LV knows that Cissa didnt follow his command to keep secret I don't think he would be furious (yeah he could play his part in front of his servants, but inside he would be satisfied with the result). Besides, don't you think- the best way to push somebody make something -is to forbid emphatically to do it ?
And I agree with Magic Words completely, it was accidentally that magic of love was revealed , by that standing her in front of the son.





Dobby Socks - Jul 4, 2006 6:37 am (#1490 of 1825)
Midori,

First, I do think Narcissa is an apt name for her. And we all know how much fun JKR has with names. We can’t presume she’s vain or self-obsessed under normal circumstances, but we can guess.

That’s a good point about Voldemort possibly orchestrating this whole situation. I don’t think it was something that he suggested to Narcissa, in whatever way, but he could have easily figured out what she was most likely to do once he gave the order to Draco. Like you said, if she’s going to ask someone to help her, Snape is not only the obvious choice, but also the only realistic choice. I do think she was putting herself in a precarious position, although she was putting Snape in an arguably worse one. Despite all that “most loyal servant” etc. stuff, if I were LV, I’d be keen on testing Snape’s loyalty. Getting Dumbledore out of the way is certainly advantageous as well. And he can kill more than two birds with one stone since he now has something to use against Narcissa and Draco as well.

I wonder how LV will view the issue of Snape’s deed. Killing DD is obviously a huge point in his favor. But he did circumvent LV’s superficial plan, if not his larger one. Draco did fail in the end, and Snape stepped up to the plate.

I’m sure Voldemort will interpret it in whatever way is most convenient to him. If Snape still has a viable role in the DE organization (and I’m certain LV can think of something,) he should be safe. But if he continues to help the Malfoys, or even tries to hide them (which I think he’ll probably do,) he could be in a bit of trouble. Bella could even take some heat simply for binding the vow.

Besides, don't you think- the best way to push somebody make something -is to forbid emphatically to do it ?

This might apply under normal circumstances – I’ve been guilty of it in my world – but Voldemort would not be someone I’d want to cross. Eek…



Catherine - Jul 4, 2006 7:22 am (#1491 of 1825)
This is a reminder that if we want to discuss Narcissa Malfoy in greater depth, that her character does have its own thread in the Wizards, Witches, Muggles, etc Group Section Folder and can be found specifically Narcissa Malfoy.



Choices - Jul 4, 2006 10:32 am (#1492 of 1825)
I originally posted this on the INFERI thread and someone suggested I post it here......

"I can see Voldemort punishing both Lucius and Narcissa by letting Grayback bite Draco, thus condemning him to a life on the outer edges of society - like Lupin - shunned, poor and having to endure the changes every full moon."

Someone commented that Draco would not be poor, but if Lucius was discredited or killed, his family fortune might be lost, leaving Draco and Narcissa in dire straits. As a werewolf, Draco would not be able to get work and could not support himself and his mother very well.



Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 11:43 am (#1493 of 1825)
I said it, Choices. I would imagine Lucius has put protections into place regarding his family fortune. Even the Blacks did that. I really cannot see him not making provision for his wife and heir. Now, if Narcissa and Draco were to defect, I do agree that it is quite likely that they might be stripped of the Malfoy fortune, assuming there were some other Malfoys alive to do this to them.

The more likely scenario I see--if Draco were to be bitten--is that he would have to retreat into his money and cut himself off from his friends. He likes being a BMOC, just as Lucius did, and that alone would be a difficult situation for him to handle. I am not saying it couldn't go down as you suggest; it just does not seem likely to me, given what I know of the Malfoys at this time.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2006 12:30 pm (#1494 of 1825)
I'm the one who suggested you move that idea over here, Choices.

I like it!

The money thing might not matter, but after how Draco treated Lupin, to know he would now be shunned the same way would be a fitting thing for Draco.

He's so sure of his superiority, and to have him be on the same level as Greyback would certainly put a damper on that!

Turning into the thing he's been so contemptuous of would be almost as good as having Buckbeak eat him in his ferret form.



Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 12:48 pm (#1495 of 1825)
I agree that it would be just desserts for Draco to be poor and shunned. I just do not see the "poor" part at the moment. I guess I need to know more about the Malfoy family money.

Solitaire



TheSaint - Jul 4, 2006 5:06 pm (#1496 of 1825)
Solitaire...perhaps now that they know Lucius is a DE they might freeze his funds (that is unless the New York Times warns him first..lol). No one willing to do business with him, and no access to his own money would surely leave Narcissca and Draco in dire straights.



Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2006 8:25 pm (#1497 of 1825)
No one froze Sirius's account at Gringotts, so why would they freeze the Malfoys' account? I'm not sure the goblins would care about the money problems of humans, criminals or not, as long as it doesn't adversely affect the goblins themselves.

Even if Lucius is a known Death Eater, Narcissa and Draco aren't, and it didn't seem that they were worried about money when they were in Madam Malkin's.



Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 9:12 pm (#1498 of 1825)
I agree, Weeny. It is also possible that they have a safe in their own home. Maybe.

Solitaire



Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 12:28 am (#1499 of 1825)
... located in a secret chamber under the drawing room floor. (Hee, hee)

Laura



darien - Jul 5, 2006 3:12 am (#1500 of 1825)
Someone like Lucius must have a million accounts here and there on different countries and probably have the managers of the bank bribed to give him facilities such as high credit and quick access to his money etc...

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TheSaint - Jul 5, 2006 4:29 am (#1501 of 1825)
Was just a suggestion on the 'how' it might be done.



Solitaire - Jul 5, 2006 10:34 am (#1502 of 1825)
TheSaint, I think Lucius is so underhanded and conniving that he probably would have accounts in places he could access--in case of emergencies such as you mention--similar to those Swiss bank accounts that BTOs are so fond of using to hide money. Surely the WW has a few. Then again, he is also arrogant and might not foresee such a need ... so you could very well be right.

Solitaire



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 10:50 am (#1503 of 1825)
I agree with Weeny. If Sirius could send a cat to take money out of his account, when everyone in the Wizarding World was supposed to be hunting him, and Mrs. Weasley could get into Harry's vault, without Harry being present, to get money to buy him dress robes, the goblins won't care what Lucius does with his money. If Draco wants some, I'm sure he can get it.

The goblins, though, are a wild card as I see it, in the coming war...and since money is one of Draco's strong points, maybe he'll be the first one in the books to play that card?



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 13, 2006 8:28 pm (#1504 of 1825)
One of the problems I have with Draco is the insistence of some fans that Voldemort really needed him to get into Hogwarts. I don't believe this. Peter Pettigrew knows about the Shrieking Shack, and since he was involved in making the map, about the one eyed witch. Either as a human or a rat, he could have led Death Eaters into the shack, or through Honeyduke's, and into the castle. Fixing the cabinet may have been test of Draco, but it was not necessary to use it to get into the castle as I see it.



Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 9:47 pm (#1505 of 1825)
Perhaps the DEs were concerned about being seen in the vicinity of Hogsmeade. After all, they are fugitives. Entering from Knockturn Alley was probably easier. That reminds me ... can Wizards apparate into and out of Diagon Alley and its sidestreets (Knockturn Alley, for example)? Have we been told?

Solitaire



haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 5:25 am (#1506 of 1825)
They said that every entrance to the castle was being guarded. Lupin surely must have come clean about the tunnel to the Shrieking Shack if Dumbledore didn't already know.

They had to find some other way in that nobody knew about.

I don't know that we actually have heard about folks apparating to Diagon Alley. I'm sure it can be done. I think that's why they had to use Floo Powder in COS - none of the kids were old enough to apparate.



Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 6:10 am (#1507 of 1825)
Of course Dumbledore knew about the Shrieking Shack! I should have remembered that. About Diagon Alley ... it makes sense, then, that they can apparate if they can use Floo Powder. Thanks.

Solitaire



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 14, 2006 7:04 am (#1508 of 1825)
Dumbledore knew about the shrieking shack and didn't do much about it, in my opinion. The one-eyed witch is the one no one seemed to know about who had never seen the map. And there were several comments made about the possibility of someone breaking into Honeyduke's.



Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 8:12 am (#1509 of 1825)
It might have been more important to get someone out of the castle after everyone had been alerted. Trelawney, for instance.

Voldemort has been obsessed with the prophecy and she represents the last possibility of hearing it.



haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 9:04 am (#1510 of 1825)
I think between Harry telling Dumbledore what happened in POA and Lupin being outted as a werewolf and Sirius sitting around #12 without much to do, it may now be common knowledge about the tunnels out of the castle - at least among the Order members.

Minerva said that every entrance to the castle was covered that night. I assumed she meant all the tunnels.



Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 9:08 am (#1511 of 1825)
Didn't the twins say that Filch didn't know about all of them? If he didn't, is it possible others didn't? Just asking ...

Solitaire



haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 9:09 am (#1512 of 1825)
I think it was that way in POA, but I don't think it was top secret 3 years later.



Weeny Owl - Jul 14, 2006 1:52 pm (#1513 of 1825)
Technically, the Shrieking Shack doesn't lead to the castle. It does to the school grounds, but not the castle itself.

How better to sneak in a group of Death Eaters than through Knockturn Alley? Even if Draco hadn't done anything that particular night, it could have been a huge Death Eater secret. Now that it's know about the Vanishing Cabinets, that will be a way in that is closed, but if the Room of Requirement hadn't been watched that night, it probably could have been used for all of the Death Eaters and Voldemor thimself ot sneak in.

Nasty little snot Draco is.



TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 7:57 pm (#1514 of 1825)
I was looking for something in GOF and happened to read the part where Harry falls out (Southern for passing out and falling)during divination class and has the vision of Volde torturing Peter.

I wondered, is it Malfoy's eagle owl that Harry 'rode' to the house,and if so, who sent the letter it was carrying? Malfoy? Snape? Barty Crouch Jr?



Weeny Owl - Jul 14, 2006 8:58 pm (#1515 of 1825)
Whoa, I seriously needed some spellchecking on that last post.

I was wondering if that eagle owl was Draco's (or the entire Malfoy family's) myself, but what I wondered even more was why Harry was on the back of the owl, even if only in his dream. If he was just getting thoughts from Voldemort, why would he picture himself on Draco's owl? That part always seemed a bit odd.



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 15, 2006 6:52 am (#1516 of 1825)
I know some fans who would say he pictured Draco's owl because he is OBSESSED with Draco. LOL!



Choices - Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am (#1517 of 1825)
Weeny Owl - "I was wondering if that eagle owl was Draco's"

Actually I think the eagle owl belongs to Voldemort. It is rather complicated to explain, but I'll try - go back to page 540 of the hardcover edition of GOF - the very top of the page ...."An eagle owl flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney...." This was the owl sent to tell Barty Crouch, Jr. that his father was heading towards Hogwarts (p. 690 - top of page). "My master sent me word of my father's escape." Wormtail was supposed to be watching Barty, Sr. and allowed him to get away. Worntail informed Voldemort of the escape and Voldemort sent the owl to let Barty, Jr. know that his father was probably heading to Hogwarts and he was to "stop him at all costs". Barty killed his father. So, I believe the eagle owl Harry rides in the dream is the same owl and therefore belongs to Voldemort.

Hope that makes sense. :-)



Soul Search - Jul 15, 2006 4:10 pm (#1518 of 1825)
Good pickup, Choices.

Weren't Voldemort and Wormtail staying at the Crouchs? So, it might have been Barty Crouch's owl, sent by Voldemort.



Choices - Jul 15, 2006 6:04 pm (#1519 of 1825)
Since the Malfoy's have an eagle owl, it seems logical that Voldemort might have one also - both being dark wizards. As far as we know, no good wizards have eagle owls. Also, why would Harry be riding Crouch's owl to go visit Voldemort in his dream? I think it more logical that he would be riding Voldemort's owl.



TheSaint - Jul 15, 2006 7:00 pm (#1520 of 1825)
Ahhh...a prophecy owl I see. It did arrive weeks before Crouch's escape (according to timeline and Easter holidays).



Weeny Owl - Jul 15, 2006 8:12 pm (#1521 of 1825)
Excellent catch, Choices. I figured it was sent to warn Barty, Jr., but couldn't figure out to whom it belonged.



TheSaint - Jul 16, 2006 2:59 am (#1522 of 1825)
Yeah...as I said..according to this.. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

not possible.



Choices - Jul 16, 2006 11:14 am (#1523 of 1825)
The eagle owl carried the message to Barty, Jr./Moody that his father had managed to escape from his home, where Wormtail was supposed to be guarding him, and was probably heading for Hogwarts. Obviously it took him a few weeks to turn up there and be killed by Barty, Jr. just after the start of summer term (whenever that is - it does not say for sure in the book)) Seems possible to me. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "prophesy owl"? I don't remember any prophesy involving an owl. In the next chapter (The Dream) Harry has a dream about riding on the back of an eagle owl and seeing Voldemort punishing Wormtail for letting Crouch, Sr. escape.



Soul Search - Jul 16, 2006 12:16 pm (#1524 of 1825)
Maybe it is something like this.

At Harry's first sighting of the owl it is coming to Crouch/Moody to tell him that Crouch Sr. has escaped. Crouch/Moody keeps the owl, then sends it back to Voldemort with the news that he has killed his father.

It makes sense that the owl belongs to Crouch. How would a strange owl be sent to Crouch Jr, who is polyjuiced to look like Moody. It can't be addressed "Barty Crouch Jr." An owl that knew Crouch Jr. might have a better chance of delivering a letter to him as Moody.

It is when the owl returns with Barty Jr's reply that Harry "rides" it to Voldemort.

I don't understand "riding" the owl either. Harry is supposed to be reading Voldemort's mind, or whatever, so, unless Voldemort was possessing the owl, Harry should have experienced the scene from Voldemort's point of view.

Maybe that's it. To make sure the owl went to Barty Jr., Voldemort possessed the owl.



TheSaint - Jul 16, 2006 12:23 pm (#1525 of 1825)
What I mean is...according to Lexicon timeline, Harry sees the owl a two weeks before Barty Crouch Sr. Escapes. Easter being the second week in March to the third week of April, Harry saw the owl on March the 7th. Easter would have been the following week at the earliest. So if the owl was from Volde..he sent it before Barty escaped.

It could well be from Volde, but is not carrying the news of Crouch's escape.



Magic Words - Jul 16, 2006 4:59 pm (#1526 of 1825)
The owl doesn't have to have anything to do with Voldemort. Harry was still capable of normal dreams, wasn't he? Maybe it was his subconscious informing him that he was receiving an outside message.



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 16, 2006 5:52 pm (#1527 of 1825)
There's no way to prove if it was a Malfoy eagle owl, a Voldemort eagle owl, or a generic dream owl, is there?



Choices - Jul 16, 2006 6:30 pm (#1528 of 1825)
No, there's no way to prove it, but it just sort of makes sense.

Maybe the timeline is off a wee bit - it wouldn't be the first time it's been in question. I don't know how they can pin down specific dates when they are not given in the book. We know JKR has her own timeline - doesn't she always have classes start on Sept. 2, a Monday, regardless of the real date....or something like that? In the chapter Veritaserum, Barty, Jr. says he received word from his master that his father had escaped - he says he waited for a week for his father to arrive at Hogwarts - yet the timeline shows it to be much longer than a week from the time he received the owl post to the time his father arrived and he killed him. So, which is right?



Rare Welsh Red - Aug 2, 2006 6:36 am (#1529 of 1825)
During yet another re-read of PS recently, for the first time the sentence hit me where Draco tells Harry, when they meet at Madame Malkin's, that - book not to hand, sorry, so this is only the gist of it - "Mother's along the street buying my wand". (It's somewhere in the "Diagon Alley" chapter, I think.) I don't think we're told whether Draco was there to choose/be chosen by the wand and then left Mom to pay for it, or wasn't involved in the process at all.

At the time I mulled over what difference this would have made - if he wasn't involved in the choosing - to Draco's effectiveness in critical situations. In the end he didn't actually attempt to AK DD in HBP, as opposed to casting the spell and failing, but I don't think I'm suggesting that the wand could actually influence his intentions! But the whole Draco's-wand thing has come back to mind in the light of what I've read about JKR saying at Radio City Music Hall that the relationship between a wizard and his wand will become more important in book 7...

JM-one-and-a-half-K!



haymoni - Aug 2, 2006 8:04 am (#1530 of 1825)
We had talked about this somewhere and I can't remember what we said.

For some reason, I thought the quote was that Narcissa was "looking at" wands, so maybe Draco has to go there after his fitting.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 2, 2006 8:08 am (#1531 of 1825)
Jo is suppposed to have admitted in New York that what happens to Draco for not being able to kill Dumbledore is addressed in book seven, so in my opinion he and Snape did not simply run away and hide out. I've only heard snippets on the news, though. I have to find a transcript of the whole thing.



Wizadora - Aug 2, 2006 9:12 am (#1532 of 1825)
Mugglenet has the following on the Draco Question:

The third question referenced the old comment about Snape and a redemptive pattern to ask whether Draco could/would redeem himself and whether anyone else would change sides. She didn't address the second part of the question, but in response to the first she said that redemption was not a possibility for all characters (giving Voldemort as an example) but it was for most of her characters. She agrees with Harry that, even given unlimited time, Draco would not have killed Dumbledore. As to what this means for his future, she said we'd have to wait 'til book seven to find out.



haymoni - Aug 2, 2006 9:52 am (#1533 of 1825)
What a tease she is!



Solitaire - Aug 2, 2006 10:47 am (#1534 of 1825)
She agrees with Harry that, even given unlimited time, Draco would not have killed Dumbledore.

It sounds to me like there is a chance Draco may change allegiances. The fact that he had been confiding in Myrtle--whom he called a Mudblood in CoS--seems somewhat promising. Surely he knew who she was.

I've been reassessing whether Draco could have been bitten by Greyback and may now be a Werewolf. I didn't pay much attention to it the first time through, but (on a much closer reread) Harry's description of his appearance in more than one spot in the book sounds a lot like he has described Remus many times before. I know this has been discussed here, but I didn't follow the thread as closely during the school year ... I kind of skipped around.

Anyway, if Draco has been bitten and is now a Werewolf, he might be more likely to feel "bullied"--not by students but possibly by DEs ... Greyback, for instance. I still don't think any students would bully Draco. This could also help account for his periods of absence from classes, Quidditch matches, etc. The ROR could serve not only as the entrance through the Vanishing Cabinet. Couldn't it also serve as a "safe room" for him to brew the Wolfsbane Potion and transform into a wolf? Surely he has enough money to ensure a supply of the ingredients, so he doesn't have to go through the Werewolf transformation ...

Okay, I'll stop for now.

Solitaire



Anna L. Black - Aug 2, 2006 11:39 am (#1535 of 1825)
You know, that's interesting - during my first read of HBP, I kept thinking that there was something fishy with Tonks that seemed to be related to Malfoy - she often was where Harry and Malfoy were (on the train, near the ROR), and somehow, her description seemed to me similar to Malfoy's. Well, Tonks was actually "channeling" Lupin, so there might be a weird connection of some sort. I admit that what I'm saying isn't based on solid facts, and is mainly pure speculation, but isn't that what the Forum is for?



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 2, 2006 12:35 pm (#1536 of 1825)
Perhaps that proves that Dumbledore was on to Draco and had Tonks watch him.



Solitaire - Aug 2, 2006 12:50 pm (#1537 of 1825)
In post #1264, LooneyLuna gives a link to a Mugglenet essay on the subject. The essayist suggests Dumbledore knows Draco is a Werewolf. It's worth a read.

Solitaire



Wizadora - Aug 2, 2006 1:52 pm (#1538 of 1825)
This brings up an interesting point, if Draco can be redeemed and brought over to the right side, does he do this by escaping Snape or because Snape has him hidden from the D.E.'s.

It seems his fate is entwinded with Snapes, and we are no closer at understanding that.

Snape is certianly very protective of Draco after the incident on the tower. If he is truely evil, won't he have left Draco behind to face the music and saved his own neck first?



Solitaire - Aug 2, 2006 2:09 pm (#1539 of 1825)
Perhaps he must help keep Draco safe due to the Unbreakable Vow.



Laura W - Aug 3, 2006 5:59 am (#1540 of 1825)
My thoughts too. There may in fact be more to it as you hint, Wizadora; but, at the very least, Snape is - by contract -, obliged to protect Draco.

(Narcissa): " 'And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?' 'I will,' said Snape." (HBP, Spinner's End)

You suggested Snape is hiding Draco from the DEs, Wizadora. That would be my guess, too. I find it interesting that that thought did not occur to Harry. On p.596 (Raincoast) of HBP his brief thoughts of the boy who

he had despised for six years and
possessed the Dark Mark - as Harry supposed - belonging to those who championed the wizard who had killed his parents and
who had let the Death Eaters into the school - endangering every child and seriously disfiguring Bill Weasley - and
who had cornered Dumbledore on the Tower long enough for Snape to come and kill the headmaster

were as follows: 1. Malfoy would not have killed DD and 2. "Where was Malfoy now, and what was Voldemort making him do under threat of killing him and his parents?"

Especially considering how Harry has seen for six years how Snape favours Draco and how Snape and Lucius Malfoy are both friends and belong to the same "club", and how both Draco and Severus are fascinated by the Dark Arts and that Snape faced down Harry during that final chase so that Malfoy could get away - "Snape shouted, 'Run, Draco!' and turned; twenty yards apart he and Harry looked at each other...", wouldn't you think that Harry would also figure that Snape is hiding Draco (instead of wondering where he is or assuming that V has him)?

Laura



Soul Search - Aug 3, 2006 6:33 am (#1541 of 1825)
It might be a bit of the other way around. Buckbeak injured Snape. Draco could be taking care of Snape.



Laura W - Aug 3, 2006 7:18 am (#1542 of 1825)
Wow! What an interesting twist, Soul Search !

Quite frankly, I don't give Draco credit for having the brains or resourcefulness to be able to hide and/or take care of Snape - or himself, for that matter - but I could certainly be proven wrong. I've always seen Draco as a particularly untalented and not-terribly-bright wizard, although we do know from PS and other books that he is a good flyer. Again, I could be proven wrong. Not about the flying part; about the other part. (grin)

Severus, on the other hand, is - in my view - extremely bright and extremely resourceful (well, he would have to be considering his precarious situation throughout the series, wouldn't he?), whatever else his faults.

Laura



Wizadora - Aug 3, 2006 8:28 am (#1543 of 1825)
Laura - Harry would not think that because he thinks Snape is Evil and with no redemptive qualities. Noone like that would not take Draco to L.V. to claim his glory. Just like Draco accused Snape of earlier in the book.

Laura you also hit on something interesting about Snape with the word protection. Throughout the books he does a lot of protecting in various forms and for various people, whether bound or not. If this is a pattern for him, could his killing of DD be seen as another form of protection, for either Draco, Harry, DD or all three?



Laura W - Aug 3, 2006 8:38 am (#1544 of 1825)
"Laura - Harry would not think that because he thinks Snape is Evil and with no redemptive qualities. Noone like that would not take Draco to L.V. to claim his glory. Just like Draco accused Snape of earlier in the book."

Fair point, Wizadora. It also kind of negates the idea of Draco hiding or taking care of Snape after the Tower incident - even if he was capable of same. During that conversation on the Tower between Dumbledore and Malfoy, Draco does not exactly sound too pleased with the Potions Master, does he? He says, "He's been offering me plenty of help - wanting all the glory for himself - wanting a bit of the action - ... he's going to wake up tomorrow and it'll all be over and he won't be the Dark Lord's favourite any more, he'll be nothing compared to me, nothing!"

Which makes Draco Malfoy even more of an idiot than I always thought he was - which is really saying something! -, as Severus Snape is actually his last best hope.

Laura



Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 8:40 am (#1545 of 1825)
could his killing of DD be seen as another form of protection, for either Draco, Harry, DD or all three

While my jury is still out on Harry and Draco, I'm not sure I see how killing Dumbledore could be construed as protecting him. JM2K, of course!

Solitaire



Wizadora - Aug 3, 2006 8:42 am (#1546 of 1825)
Well I guess now it is confirmed he is dead, no I see my error! oops I meant DD's aims for the wizarding world I guess.



journeymom - Aug 3, 2006 9:33 am (#1547 of 1825)
I like the idea that Draco is a werewolf now and that that's why his appearance was deteriorating. But there are two things against that. First, Draco's appearance could be explained by the extreme pressure he was under to bump off Dumbledore. Comparing his appearance to Lupin's isn't entirely fair since Lupin was so poor because he couldn't keep a job and wasn't able to get a decent suit of clothes for years. Draco would certainly be a well dressed werewolf.

Second, and more importantly, assuming Greyback bit Draco, did it happen before or after Snape's UV with Narcissa? It would have to have been before the Vow, because if Draco was bit after, Snape would have fallen down dead or whatever. Spinner's End took place before the start of term and on the train ride Draco still seemed his usual confident, arrogant self, certainly not like someone terrorized by a werewolf.

And please forgive me if somebody has already pointed this out. I don't visit the Draco thread often.



LooneyLuna - Aug 3, 2006 10:42 am (#1548 of 1825)
Just to throw this idea out there. Maybe Greyback bit Draco when he wasn't transformed. So, a situation similar to Bill Weasley's. Draco has some wolfish tendancies, gets antsy around a full moon, and has a wound that will never quite heal.

And I would imagine that if Draco was bitten, it was before Narcissa went to Spinner's End.



Chemyst - Aug 3, 2006 10:44 am (#1549 of 1825)
This whole Draco-is-a-werewolf theory would be a lot easier to accept if the turning of werewolves were more like vampires where the amount of blood consumed or drained affects the result- repeated sips brings the victim deeper under the thrall. In lycanthropy, you can't get just a little nibble to sharpen your teeth or fill in one's beard.

It would be relatively easy to guess that Voldemort may have threatened Draco with being fed to Fenrir if he failed. But it is very hard to imagine LV saying, "And now, Draco, just so you know I mean business, I'm going to let ol' Greyback here lick your arm. You'll probably feel a little anemic when the moon starts to wane each month, but that should help keep you focused on the importance of the assignment."

I am rethinking Draco's role since the Radio City Music Hall readings though. In the earlier books, Harry could dismiss him as a pesky annoyance. In HBP we learned Bellatrix tutored Draco in occlumency. I wonder what and how much Bella had to do with changing Draco's attitude about Snape. During the time Bella was at Azkaban, Draco practically worshiped Snape. In book six, he didn't.



Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 11:50 am (#1550 of 1825)
Comparing his appearance to Lupin's isn't entirely fair since Lupin was so poor because he couldn't keep a job and wasn't able to get a decent suit of clothes for years. Draco would certainly be a well dressed werewolf.

Journeymom, I was referring to the descriptions of his physical appearance, not his clothing. In fact, this is why I said many posts ago--before I began my reread--that even as a Werewolf, Draco would never know the misery Remus has known, because the Malfoys have plenty of money. That money would also make it possible for him not to have to worry about transforming into a fully-fledged Werewolf, as he would probably have the funds to keep himself in Wolfsbane potion, if necessary.

Chemyst, I do like your points about Draco's changed attitude toward Snape.

Solitaire

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1551 to 1600

Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 8:47 am

journeymom - Aug 3, 2006 12:33 pm (#1551 of 1825)
Solitaire, I realize you were also referring to his physical appearance, not just his clothing. That's why I said,"Draco's appearance could be explained by the extreme pressure he was under to bump off Dumbledore."

And I should rephrase that. It wasn't just the pressure to kill Dumbledore, but also the threat on himself and his family that was making him look sicker every day.

I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, looking for horses rather than zebras, whatever other analogy you can think of. I do like the idea that Draco's appearance is explained by a werewolf bite.



Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 1:10 pm (#1552 of 1825)
On my first read-through, after I met Sanguini, I thought perhaps he had been vamped. I'm very suggestible.

Solitaire



Dobby Socks - Aug 3, 2006 1:54 pm (#1553 of 1825)
LOL, Solitare. I was just about to ask, "Wasn't there an earlier theory here that he had been made into a vampire by Sanguini?"

I'm not sure about the werewolf thing. It's possible I guess, but I think his appearance is probably stress-related (little sleep, not eating enough, constant worry), complicated by his spending most of his time indoors. Does anyone know if his appearance began to change after the cursed necklace attempt? Or when precisely Harry begins to notice the change?



Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 2:53 pm (#1554 of 1825)
In all fairness, the vamp thing was not my idea. Someone else actually posted it. I was, however, a strong proponent of Snape-the-vampire for a long time. Alas, Jo shot down that idea. (I still think he is a bat animagus ... I can't help it!)

Solitaire



darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:30 am (#1555 of 1825)
Crabbe and Goyle had Malfoy's protection and the assosiation to the all important name of Malfoy. They were like his own mini Death Eaters. Maybe now that Malfoy is gone they'll be able to think for themselves. Also I dont recall anytime Goyle or Crabbe have actually spoken.



Ice Princess - Aug 4, 2006 11:36 am (#1556 of 1825)
Just as a thought...I wuz wondering if anyone else wuz feeling slightly sorry or some pitty for Draco. I mean as funny as it wuz when Harry found Draco sobbing in the bathroom (lol) you have to feel kinda sorry that L.V would kill him unless..you know..when he's so young, inexperienced and um stupid. Even if it wuz his dads fault..and even though he worshiped him...i just...idk.



haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 11:38 am (#1557 of 1825)
I did feel a bit sorry for him. I think he really was in over his head.

However, he could have come to Dumbledore at any time, so I didn't feel THAT sorry for him.

I actually felt worse for him after he lowered his wand on Dumbledore and Harry was thinking about what terrible, awful things Voldy was making him do under such duress.

It's all about choices, though, isn't it?



Ice Princess - Aug 4, 2006 11:53 am (#1558 of 1825)
I geuss...he definatly seemed too scared to do it himself....obviously if had to have the DEs there b4 he would even think about doing it himself he wuz really scared...and then like after he lowered his wand. He must of been waiting for Snape to do it then once he found out about the vow.



darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:57 am (#1559 of 1825)
Or maybe he didn't hate enough to cast Avada Kedavra to a mortal ending.(Impostor Moody and Bella told us it was necesary to hate for the Unforgivables)



haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 12:19 pm (#1560 of 1825)
Ice Princess - watch the Netspeak - we have too many folks here that are using English as their second language. We try to spell things correctly and not abbreviate too much to make things easier for everyone to understand.

I am sure there is a big difference between PLANNING to kill Dumbledore and actually DOING it.

I don't know that Draco knew about the Vow though. I could see him being absolutely furious with Narcissa for doing something like that. If he knew Snape had taken the Vow to help him, he may have been more forthcoming with his progress.

darien - I'm sure he lost his hatred along with his nerve. Dumbledore was offering him a way out of his plight. Just a few more minutes alone with Dumbledore and we would have had a very different ending.

Alas, earwax - that is not Jo's plan!!



Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 5:06 pm (#1561 of 1825)
If he knew Snape had taken the Vow to help him, he may have been more forthcoming with his progress.

I definitely think this is true, Haymoni.

Solitaire



Ice Princess - Aug 4, 2006 8:37 pm (#1562 of 1825)
But didn't Snape tell Draco he had made the vow? Oh..and very true Darien..I never considered that hate had to be included with the unforgivables. It actually looked pretty clear that Draco didn't want to kill Dumbledore and was only doing it to save his own life...and to prove himself to L.V and Snape...and all the other D.Es.



cindysuewho45 - Aug 4, 2006 11:26 pm (#1563 of 1825)
Hi all, Well I can not remember if Draco knew about the vow. But I do remember outside of Slughorn's party, Draco said something to Snape about his mom asking him to look after him, and that he Snape wanted all the glory. I will have to go back and look into it more. Draco was planning to kill DD, and he was quite proud and or happy about it at the start. It was latter on, when it was not happening as fast as LV wanted. That LV let him know that he would kill him and his parents. I must think that Draco was re thinking his feelings about how cool the Dark Arts and the DE's were at that point and time. It was good that JKR let Harry see what Draco was going through.



darien - Aug 5, 2006 2:35 am (#1564 of 1825)
I think Snape did tell him about the vow, and then Harry overheard "Unbreakable Vow" or was that some other time?



Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:02 pm (#1565 of 1825)
Now that you mention it ... I think they must have discussed it and Harry must have overheard it, because he asked Ron about Unbreakable Vows over the Christmas holidays back at the Burrow. Ron explained how serious they were:

Harry had asked, "... What happens if you break it, then?"
"You die," said Ron simply. "Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five. I nearly did, too. I was holding hands with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental," said Ron, with a reminiscent gleam in his eyes. "Only time I've ever seen Dad as angry as Mum. Fred reckons his left buttock has never been the same since."

Solitaire



Ice Princess - Aug 5, 2006 9:08 pm (#1566 of 1825)
A thought just came to mind - did L.V know about the vow between Snape and Narcissa. If he didn't, this will probablly have a big effect on what happens to Draco Malfoy and Snape and possiblly Narcissa in the 7th book.



Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 9:21 pm (#1567 of 1825)
I suppose it could depend on which is more important--the fact that Dumbledore is finally dead or who did the actual killing. Draco and Narcissa may be in trouble--he for failing to do the actual deed and she for revealing it to Snape. I wonder, though, if this will cement Snape's position in Voldemort's camp ...

Solitaire



Laura W - Aug 10, 2006 5:48 am (#1568 of 1825)
cindysue and darien: yes, Snape told Draco about the UV and Harry overheard the conversation.

"Listen to me," said Snape, his voice so low now that Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. "I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco -" (HBP, Chapter 15, p.302)

Laura



haymoni - Aug 11, 2006 5:45 am (#1569 of 1825)
Then Draco's a bigger idiot than I thought he was.

He's got Snape - a very talented wizard - ready to help him or at least protect him if something goes wrong, and he turns him down.

Idiot!



Pamzter - Aug 11, 2006 5:10 pm (#1570 of 1825)
But remember, Snape's a half blood. Draco probably wouldn't want help from a half blood.



haymoni - Aug 11, 2006 7:08 pm (#1571 of 1825)
I'm stickin' with idiot.



Laura W - Aug 11, 2006 11:01 pm (#1572 of 1825)
Hey, they're not mutually exclusive. One can be an idiot and a bigot at the same time. You *both* could be right. (big grin)

I have always thought Draco was an idiot, but he is also under a lot of pressure from his father to prove himself. Remember Lucius scolding Draco for allowing a "mudblood" like Hermoine to get better marks than him, and Lucius' comment to Borgin in the shop that he certainly hopes his son will amount to more than a thief or con man (or something like that)? Expectations have been put on the boy that, quite frankly, I do not believe he is smart enough or talented enough or brave enough to ever live up to.

I think Draco is desperate to do something "great" - as is befitting a pure-blood wizard of wealth and family standing (blah, blah) -, and really is afraid Snape will take some of the credit if he helps him ... Unbreakable Vow, notwithstanding.

Having said this, I totally agree with post #1569, exactly as it is worded.

Laura



Solitaire - Aug 11, 2006 11:33 pm (#1573 of 1825)
Hey, they're not mutually exclusive. One can be an idiot and a bigot at the same time.

In fact, if you're the latter, perhaps that makes the former a given?



Laura W - Aug 12, 2006 1:45 am (#1574 of 1825)
Not by *my* definition of the word "idiot," Solitaire.

For example, I consider Tom Riddle to be the furthest thing from being an idiot and he's king of the bigots! He is evil and horrible and all that, but not an idiot. Unlike Draco, he is - and always has been - very sharp and resourceful and unbelievably talented and quick-minded. All qualities which could have been used to benefit the WW; the more's the pity that he chose ("It is our choices, Harry, ... well, we all know the rest) to use these gifts he possessed/possesses to spread fear, hatred, destruction and suffering in his quest for ultimate power and for the subjugation or elimination of those he considered inferior.

Draco Malfoy, in my opinion, possesses none of Tom's qualities. Exactly the opposite. (Sorry folks, but I obviously have a *very* low opinion of Draco.) Tom would have been shrewd enough to use Snape as an ally and maybe even something of a mentor if he had been in Draco's position in HBP.

Laura



Choices - Aug 12, 2006 10:48 am (#1575 of 1825)
I have to agree with you Laura about Draco. I have a very low opinion about someone who would hide behind two big "goons" and bully other students from his safe vantage point.



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2006 11:42 am (#1576 of 1825)
Point taken, Laura. TR could hardly be called an idiot. I suppose I was thinking of most of the bigots and racists I see (there is a KKK stronghold in my area ) spewing their poison today. They tend to be people with very little education, an extremely high opinion of their own worth, and a very constricted world ... rather like Marvolo Gaunt. Of course, there will always be the exceptions--people who are intelligent, yet use their intelligence to bully and corrupt. Sad ...

Solitaire



timrew - Aug 12, 2006 4:08 pm (#1577 of 1825)
Laura W:- One can be an idiot and a bigot at the same time.

Yes, I think that's called a 'bigiot', Laura..........

Do you know why Draco has such idiots as Crabbe and Goyle as his stooges? Only because they're thicker than he is.

In the country of 'the thick', the person with one brain-cell is King. Draco is the 'thick' King of all he surveys.

He is a waste of space, and I wonder what he is still doing in the books.............



haymoni - Aug 12, 2006 9:17 pm (#1578 of 1825)
I think there are loads of very bright, talented people that are still idiots.

You can have all the talent in the world, but if you squander it or use it unwisely, you are an idiot.

Draco just doesn't use his head.



Laura W - Aug 12, 2006 11:51 pm (#1579 of 1825)
And I see your point in your post 1576, Solitaire.

Bigiot? Good one, Tim! (chuckle, chuckle)

I may be wrong, but I don't see it as "Draco just doesn't use his head," haymoni. I honestly don't believe he is that bright, talented or insightful. He is a bully and a coward - Who but a coward would stomp on somebody's face after incapacitating them with a Petrificus Totalus? Disgraceful!! -, but has no real "head" to "use." I'm kind of with Tim on the "thick" thing (although I think Draco is a very important part of the series and is far from a minor character, as some see him).

Laura



Chemyst - Aug 13, 2006 3:18 am (#1580 of 1825)
He is a waste of space, and I wonder what he is still doing in the books............. - Timrew

Obviously you haven't read Book 7 yet, Tim! His character is used to exemplify the consequences of making bigiotic choices.



Fawkes Egg - Aug 13, 2006 7:56 am (#1581 of 1825)
Are you a Sting fan, Tim?!

On being intelligent/educated: I spent many years in academia and trust me, there are people with PhDs coming out of their ears who are still pretty thick. Or as a colleague of mine once said, they're "Book smart, life stupid!"

Tom Riddle/Voldemort met his downfall when he first tried to kill Harry because he was stupid enough to ignore the importance of love. He can be clever, charming, powerful, manipulative and frightening, but that doesn't stop him behaving like an idiot, or indeed a 'bigiot'!

Draco Malfoy thinks he's better than others around him, because he's surrounded himself with inferiors and because he's a bigot: hasn't gotten him anywhere. He's swallowed his parents' teachings all his life and ended up in the run from the Ministry and (most likely) from Voldemort.



timrew - Aug 13, 2006 3:14 pm (#1582 of 1825)
I am a Sting fan, Fawkes Egg. And I agree with you.........there are people with PhDs coming out of their ears who are still pretty thick

Take your average suicide bomber. The papers here all say that they are well-educated, degree type individuals. Well, in my mind, that doesn't stop them being as thick as two short planks.....................as we say here, oop North, where men are men and sheep are nervous.



Laura W - Aug 14, 2006 1:55 am (#1583 of 1825)
There are a lot of words I would use to describe Tom Riddle Fawkes Egg, but "stupid" is not one of them.

Dumbledore says that Voldemort killed thousands of people - or had them killed - during his 11-year reign. The fake Moody tells his class in GoF that there had never been a survivor of the AK until Harry Potter, and none since. There is no way, based on all experience and reason, that Voldemort would not have expected the curse to kill the baby ... his mother's love notwithstanding.

As it turns out (because it is explained to us by DD on p.743 (Raincoast) of HBP), love is what is going to defeat Voldemort but there was no precedent for this in PS when Voldemort went after the infant. One can only assume all the other wizards, witches and Muggles he killed up to Oct. 31, 1981 were loved as well. This was a special case which he had no way of predicting, despite being the greatest dark wizard in a century.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Draco Malfoy is, in my opinion, a whole other kettle of flobberworms. It's interesting to compare Draco and Sirius Black. (Whoa, where did that come from?!, I can hear you saying) Both are physically attractive, came from very wealthy families, are pure-blood and grew up in homes where bigotry, racism, classism and prejudice against anybody different were the norm. Yet, from a young age, Sirius realized that his parents and their ideas were morally wrong and he rebelled. Draco, on the other hand, adopted the values he was raised with; and even attending Hogwarts, where he was exposed to children not like himself and other magical creatures (ie - Hagrid, Flitwick with his goblin blood, the noble hippogriffs, etc.), did not broaden nor open his mind in the slightest.

Once again, "It is our choices that tell what we truly are ..."

Laura



timrew - Aug 14, 2006 4:55 pm (#1584 of 1825)
Well, I still think Draco is 'as thick as two short planks'........................



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 14, 2006 8:50 pm (#1585 of 1825)
If Draco did come up with the plan to repair the cabinets on his own, based on what Monatague told him, that's not a stupid kid. He's a sneaky little Slytherin, through and through. You could tell that from the way he manipulated his injury to cause Hagrid more grief than it warranted. But he's not stupid.



Laura W - Aug 15, 2006 12:38 am (#1586 of 1825)
Stupid enough, thick enough, unimaginative enough, uninsightful enough - pick a word - to refuse to allow a talented, willing, very clever, successfully-sneaky adult wizard (Snape, of course, who is - as far as Draco knows, because his mother and his aunt Bella would have said so, albeit bitterly, - worthy of being a favourite of Lord Voldemort's) help him with a task the boy realizes is over his head and his capability to perform ... to the point that he was crying about it in the girls' bathroom.

I actually never used the word "stupid" when referring to young Malfoy in any of my previous posts. I did say "an idiot" and "not very bright" and "not very talented." Really stupid - in an almost pitying-the-person kind of way - describes Crabbe and Goyle. And the fact that Malfoy needs to surround himself with the likes of them in order to feel superior, both physically and socially, *also* makes him an idiot.

I guess it's all in the definition (ah, semantics again!). With the same English word meaning different things to different people, it's a wonder - no, a miracle - that we English speakers can communicate with each other at all. (sigh)

-------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, maybe Draco is a late bloomer. Maybe in Book Seven we will see him hit himself on the forehead and cry, "What an idiot I was as a child and youth! How could I have been so mean and narrow and hateful and arrogant! I hurt a lot of people physically and emotionally, and for that I can never completely forgive myself. I thought myself superior to them but nothing could have been further from the truth, as I am actually a rather mediocre wizard. For penance, I shall attempt to redeem myself by devoting the rest of my life to fostering equality and harmony between all creatures, magical and non!"

Oops, must have wandered into the fan fiction thread. Please forgive me. (wink, wink)

Laura



haymoni - Aug 15, 2006 5:32 am (#1587 of 1825)
I don't think Draco is stupid - I just think he's an idiot.



Ice Princess - Aug 15, 2006 10:07 am (#1588 of 1825)
Interesting point Laura, comparing Draco Malfoy and Sirius Black. It really makes you think.......hmmmmm.



Solitaire - Aug 15, 2006 12:53 pm (#1589 of 1825)
Actually, it is more of a contrast ... showing how differently they responded to their respective parents' ideologies and prejudices. Then again, it does seem as though the Blacks kind of backed off when confronted with Voldemort's real platform, whereas the Malfoys seem to have jumped in with both feet.

Solitaire



Laura W - Aug 15, 2006 1:50 pm (#1590 of 1825)
Thanks, Ice Princess.

Yes, Solitaire, it is certainly true that Sirius' lovely mum and his dad did not actually join Voldemort and become DEs themselves, whereas Lucius did (Narcissa didn't actually become a DE, did she?) and Draco is, at the least, a Death Nibbler and darned proud of it. I wouldn't exactly say that the Blacks "backed off," though. They just didn't take that final step (which is probably what you were saying).

As the conversation goes in OoP, (Harry): " 'Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?' (Sirius): 'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. ... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.' " (p. 104, Cdn. ed.)

And apparently Mrs. Black had not changed her views in 1994 when the Order moved into 12GP. Her portrait was still of the mindset to yell, "Half-breed, mutants, freaks, begone from this place!' and to Molly, "Blood traitor, abomination, shame of my flesh!"

Not exactly backing down on the ideas both Sirius and Draco were raised with, is it? Just not going so far as to actually join Voldemort in the way Regulus Black and Bellatrix Black (Lestrange) did. And the Malfoys (including Narcissa Black, in spirit at least) of course.

Anyway, point being that at a very young age Sirius and Draco started from the same place or, at least, a very similar place upbringing-wise but *chose* to go in different directions in terms of their values, ideologies and principles. This, of course, is a recurring theme in Jo's books. *cough* Harry and Tom *cough* But, for some reason, the Draco-Sirius comparison or contrast (nods to Solitaire) suddenly hit me out of nowhere.

Laura



Soul Search - Aug 15, 2006 3:26 pm (#1591 of 1825)
The bit about "choices we make" does seem to be a recurring theme.

Question is, given similar circumstances, WHY did each make different choices?



Choices - Aug 15, 2006 5:52 pm (#1592 of 1825)
Well, it makes me wonder if Sirius's parents weren't a bit older and simply not able to fully throw themselves into the lifestyle required of a DE? Maybe they already had kids and couldn't commit. Lucius (and possibly Narcissa) was younger and able to expend the effort required to be a DE. Perhaps Draco had not appeared on the scene yet, so Lucius was foot-loose and fancy free to join up and attend all the DE get-togethers.



Lana - Aug 15, 2006 7:54 pm (#1593 of 1825)
Although we can all agree that Draco has been nothing but a cynical little brat these past 6 years at Hogwarts, in the end, he did NOT in fact murder Dumbledore. He didn't even try. Dumbledore said it himself that Malfoy used very crude and non-creative ways of attempting to kill him, like with the neclace that obviously was going to hit someonesle before it got to Dumbledore. And that night in the tower Dumbloedor said, "...If you were going to kill me, you would have done it when you first disarmed me, you would not have stopped for this pleasant chat about ways and means."

Draco is mean, he is disrespectful, he is barely a decent human being(in my opinion at least), but he IS NOT a killer, and that alone makes him wayyy less evil than Snape or Voldemort. This is why I think there will be a major change in Draco in Book 7. Reformation is a reoccuring theme in these books (Regulus.. Snape?) so I think the fact that he didn't follow through on something as MAJOR as Voldemort's orders, well that shows that he has SOME good left in him.

What do you think? Don't hesatate to say in 100% wrong if that's what you think. =]



Laura W - Aug 16, 2006 2:16 am (#1594 of 1825)
Actually, I don't disagree with you at all, Lana. Draco did *not* kill Dumbledore. And everybody made a big point of that. Dumbledore, Snape (when he told Narcissa at Spinner's End that V expects Draco to fail in the task and for Snape himself to take it on), and especially Jo. No subtlety in all the hints she gives us in that Tower scene that he is redeemable. She even has Harry, despite his six-year hatred of Malfoy, feel some sympathy for him.

" ... he had not forgotten the fear in Malfoy's voice on that Tower top, nor the fact that he had lowered his wand before the other Death Eaters arrived. Harry did not believe that Malfoy would have killed Dumbledore. He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike." (p.596, Raincoast)

Talk about the author setting us all up for a Draco-Malfoy-turns-good-guy-in-a-big-way Book Seven! Of course, with these novels, the obvious is often *not* the way things go. How delicious!

Laura



Soul Search - Aug 16, 2006 8:07 am (#1595 of 1825)
I agree, Laura W, that we will see some sort of dramatic turn-around from Draco, but I can't agree with "Draco-Malfoy-turns-good-guy-in-a-big-way."

Clearly, Draco has seen the error of siding with Voldemort. Voldemort is a psychopath and those who are close to Voldemort are most at risk of pain and sudden death. There aren't even rewards for pleasing him. Draco wants out of the death eater ranks, but is too much of a coward to take either Regulus' or Snape's route.

Yet, Draco showed no remorse that he almost got Katie and Ron killed (discussion with Snape after Slughorn's Christmas party.) Nor was he particularly upset that the death eaters he let into the castle were there to destroy and kill. Draco remains uncaring and self centered. That is part of his basic character and it won't change. The only other people he really cares about, or will ever care about, are his mother and father.

Yet, JKR will come up with a most interesting way for Draco to switch sides and help Harry.

As you said, How delicious!



Ice Princess - Aug 16, 2006 8:27 am (#1596 of 1825)
This is exciting! I remember feeling excited the first time I read the part in the tower and thinking that this might be the time when Draco turns over. It seemed meant to be, considering his father was in Azkaban (safe from L.V) and his mother was scared out of her mind for Draco's and her own life. Soul Search, I will agree with you if you were trying to say that even if Draco does change sides, it's unlikely that his character and personality will ever change. This is still so exciting! Smile



timrew - Aug 16, 2006 4:16 pm (#1597 of 1825)
Good point, Lana. I think that Draco being redeemed is the only reason why the nasty little oik will have made it to book 7.

He is just too thick to have made it on merit alone. But what about his mates, Crabbe and Goyle? Are they to be redeemed too? Or are they just thick cannon fodder?



Ice Princess - Aug 16, 2006 7:55 pm (#1598 of 1825)
I was also wondering what would happen with Crabbe and Goyle in the 7th book, but it's not like they are well-developed characters so it's unlikely there'll be any room for them in the 7th book anyway. But it's not like they were ever mentioned without Draco, and he's not at Hogwarts any more so......why are we talking about Crabbe and Goyle??!!



Lana - Aug 17, 2006 9:02 am (#1599 of 1825)
That's a good question... well it's said that it isn't a bad thing to be a follower, as long as you find the right person to follow, so maybe if Draco reforms they will too.

I know Crabbe and Goyle's fathers are death eaters though, so they probably weren't mean just because Draco is.

You're right though, ice Princess, book 7 is going to be so filled that I don't even think there'll be room for those oafs. =]



darien - Aug 17, 2006 9:04 am (#1600 of 1825)
I have posted this thought on some other place which I dont remember. I was wondering if we have ever heard Crabbe or Goyle talk, express a thought or anything other than grunt and laugh.I dont remember anytime. If I am right maybe now Malfoy doesnt talk for them they will be able to think for themselves

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1601 to 1650

Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 8:53 am

Choices - Aug 17, 2006 10:16 am (#1601 of 1825)
I think the only time we have heard Crabbe and Goyle talk, they were really Harry and Ron on polyjuice.



Soul Search - Aug 17, 2006 10:28 am (#1602 of 1825)
Indeed, Crabe and Goyle have no lines, whatsoever.

A more interesting question might be "how will Draco handle not having them around?"

They do seem to fill Draco's need for followers (mostly) willing to do whatever he wants.



Ice Princess - Aug 17, 2006 2:04 pm (#1603 of 1825)
That's actually a really interesting thought, Soul Search....what's Draco going to do without someone to boss around and take his orders?



darien - Aug 18, 2006 4:33 am (#1604 of 1825)
Or even worse, Draco is going to become the one who is going to be bossed arouned and given orderes. He's among the big boys now.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 18, 2006 10:51 am (#1605 of 1825)
I think Snape is going to be in charge of him. Voldemort isn't going to deny anything to the man who killed Dumbledore,and Snape does seem to have a soft spot for Draco.



haymoni - Aug 18, 2006 10:57 am (#1606 of 1825)
Draco has no purpose now. He can room with Wormtail.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 18, 2006 11:09 am (#1607 of 1825)
Maybe his purpose will be to find out what purpose Wormtail really has. LOL!



Ice Princess - Aug 18, 2006 12:03 pm (#1608 of 1825)
I agree with Die Zimtzickle on both posts! LOL! =D



wynnleaf - Aug 18, 2006 1:46 pm (#1609 of 1825)
Draco is mean, he is disrespectful, he is barely a decent human being(in my opinion at least), but he IS NOT a killer, and that alone makes him wayyy less evil than Snape or Voldemort.

Well, if Katie Bell had died, would Draco have been a killer? Or if Ron had died, would Draco be a killer?

Actually Draco was willing to commit deeds that would cost someone their life. Draco just couldn't do it face-to-face. I'll take Dumbledore's word for it that Draco couldn't kill him (DD) because he wasn't a killer, not just because it was the powerful Dumbledore. But still, Draco was willing to do things that could, and almost did, kill someone.

However, it may well be that Draco has seen the error of his ways and now knows that killing in any form is just too much for him. So maybe he wouldn't even do the poisoned mead, or cursed necklace crimes anymore.

I see Draco at the start of book 7 as placed under Snape's thumb, so to speak. And if that's the case, I don't think Snape will have much patience with him -- DDMSnape or ESE Snape, either one. I'm guessing that the days of Snape going easy on Draco are long gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if Draco makes it through alive by the end of the book. But I'll be curious to see if JKR reforms him or not.



Choices - Aug 18, 2006 7:24 pm (#1610 of 1825)
In Muggle society, Draco would certainly go down for attempted murder. It is by pure luck that he did not succeed in killing Ron and Katie. I might also add that he is a coward. He could not attempt murder face to face with his intended victims. When he faced Dumbledore and had the chance to murder looking his victim in the face, he could not do it. I do not know if that was innate goodness on Draco's part, or once again, cowardice.....but I think I'd wager on cowardice.



Magic Words - Aug 19, 2006 1:35 pm (#1611 of 1825)
I don't think Draco has much innate goodness, but let me put it this way: I think he has the potential to develop it, because of the cowardice he showed on the tower. If he were not redeemable, cowardice wouldn't have kept him from killing Dumbledore; at that moment it was the best way to protect himself, so cowardice would have dictated that he get on with it as quickly as possible. The fact that he was afraid to do it meant that he recognized how wrong it was, even if he was trying to ignore his conscience.

I also think he'll stop trying to murder people from a distance now that he understands murder a little better.



legolas returns - Aug 19, 2006 1:44 pm (#1612 of 1825)
Draco had his life and that of his family hanging over him. What he did in desperation was utterly wrong. I think he now appreciates that its not easy to kill someone face to face. Lets hope he does not go back to indirect methods to kill members of the order.



Solitaire - Aug 19, 2006 3:30 pm (#1613 of 1825)
the author setting us all up for a Draco-Malfoy-turns-good-guy-in-a-big-way Book Seven

There is a big difference between being a bad guy who is afraid to pull the trigger and actually "turning good guy." I'd want to see a heck of a lot more evidence of goodness before jumping to this conclusion. I think Choices has it right in post #1610--he was a coward.

Yet, JKR will come up with a most interesting way for Draco to switch sides and help Harry.
Again, it's kind of a big leap from not being able to kill Dumbledore face-to-face to helping Harry vanquish Voldy.

I know Crabbe and Goyle's fathers are death eaters though, so they probably weren't mean just because Draco is.
Were they ever actually mean on their own initiative, without being ordered by Draco to do something stupid? I wonder whether they would have ever bothered Harry or anyone else without Draco as a catalyst.

Draco has no purpose now. He can room with Wormtail.
LOL Haymoni!

Solitaire



Ice Princess - Aug 20, 2006 12:50 am (#1614 of 1825)
But wasn't Draco quite confident that the necklace and poisoned mead would get to DD without harming anyone else in the process? Draco did not intend to kill Katie Bell or Ron Weasley (though I'm sure he wouldn't have minded). If the two pitiful attempts to kill DD had hurt anyone else besides Draco's enemies, maybe Draco would have felt slightly guilty. I do not think that Draco is a killer because if Ron or Katie had been killed (though Draco would not have felt bad about it at all) it would have considered it an accident, they weren't the ones Draco intended to harm.



Choices - Aug 20, 2006 9:38 am (#1615 of 1825)
Draco would have to be a fool not to consider that the necklace or the mead might go astray and harm someone unintended. I think they were desperate attempts and he just didn't care.....like shooting into a crowd in the hope that you hit your intended target.



Solitaire - Aug 20, 2006 9:56 am (#1616 of 1825)
Choices is correct. Draco didn't take any precautions to keep anyone else from getting hurt. He was only interested in reaching his intended target, and he didn't care who suffered along the way.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2006 10:36 am (#1617 of 1825)
And if that's the case, I don't think Snape will have much patience with him -- DDMSnape or ESE Snape, either one. I'm guessing that the days of Snape going easy on Draco are long gone.

What do "DDMSnape" and "ESE Snape" mean?

JKR said in an interview that Harry was correct in thinking that Draco wouldn't have killed Dumbledore. She didn't go into his other attempts, though. She also said, "But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself."

If Draco has suppressed virtually all of the good side of himself, I don't see him doing anything that will help in the war effort unless it benefits him.

Draco has had a privileged upbringing, and from his comments through all the books, he seems to feel that whatever he wants should be handed to him. Now he's finding out that people don't really care if he's a Malfoy or not... at least Voldemort isn't impressed. Lucius was a bad boy and Draco had to pay for it regardless of the Malfoy name.

Draco reminds me of someone I saw once during one of those TV news programs such as "20/20" or "Datline" where a woman was either killed or badly hurt, and the guy who did it said it wasn't his fault because she had provoked him. He didn't feel that he should be in prison because if she hadn't argued he wouldn't have had to retaliate. That sounds like Draco to me. He has no sense of personal responsibility. He has no sense of right and wrong. He seems to care about things only if they directly affect him or his family, and if they don't he's all for them.

I still think back to the twelve-year-old who wanted Hermione dead. He may not have understood exactly what that means at the age of twelve, but he still felt that way regardless.

All along he's been a bully. He's been mean, vindictive, a racist, a liar, and filled with his own importance due to his father's influence. He is finding out the hard way that what he thought he wanted and the reality of it aren't the same.

I don't see him changing at all. As far as we know, Umbridge has never killed anyone, yet she was willing to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. Draco actually tried to use it on Harry. Umbridge is horrible, and Draco was one of her pets. I see him at least as bad as she is, whether or not he ever kills anyone. He's still the same nasty person he's always been.



Solitaire - Aug 20, 2006 10:38 am (#1618 of 1825)
I think DDM is Dumbledore's Man and ESE is Ever So Evil ... but if I am wrong, feel free to correct me. It took me a while to figure it out, Weeny.

Solitaire



Chemyst - Aug 20, 2006 11:26 am (#1619 of 1825)
Solitaire is correct, but they are also not recognized as acceptable abbreviations on this forum.
This was discussed a lot in the July 17& 18 posts from the Controversy Originating from "Tell About Yourself" Posts thread.



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2006 9:15 pm (#1620 of 1825)
Thanks, Solitaire and Chemyst.

Due to some personal stuff I haven't been around much so I haven't been reading too many threads. Abbreviations in general irk me, but such is life.

Since this is Draco's thread, I will say that I forgot to mention how he has gone from a petty and rather childish person in regards to how he torments people to someone who is now having to see just how serious this war is.

He spent time with the "Potter Stinks" badges in the fourth as well as his interviews with Rita Skeeter, and then in the next one he makes up a song about Ron. Silly, petty, ridiculous things, but he went from those to stomping Harry in the face. I can see him delving deeper into the Dark Arts and becoming worse and worse.



Solitaire - Aug 20, 2006 10:05 pm (#1621 of 1825)
I tend to think a lot will depend on what happens while he is with Snape. Unless Draco is delivered back to Narcissa or handed directly over to Voldemort, he may remain with Snape. I hope this happens, because it will be interesting to see how Snape handles the situation.

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Aug 21, 2006 6:23 am (#1622 of 1825)
Sorry, I didn't see those posts about not using those particular abbreviations. I've seen those abbreviations used quite a bit elsewhere (the ESE and DDM, which mean Ever So Evil and Dumbledore's Man; there's also an Out For Himself OFH abbreviation), and it was helpful as it often otherwise involves some sort of longish phrase to explain what one means. I do agree that many abbreviations are confusing. However, it would be nice to have something to use in this case, since coming up on Book 7 a lot of the discussion is about who might be loyal to the Order or Dumbledore, who is just serving the Ministry, and who is serving Voldemort, or is otherwise evil.

On the other hand, some characters could conceivably fall in an in-between zone. For instance, if Draco turns away from Voldemort and helps the Order, he won't be Dumbledore's Man (almost certainly), but might find himself at least opposed to LV.

Unless Draco is delivered back to Narcissa or handed directly over to Voldemort, he may remain with Snape. I hope this happens, because it will be interesting to see how Snape handles the situation.

Solitaire, I agree. If Draco stays with Snape, I tend to think more will happen with developing his character. If he's dropped off with Narcissa or goes into hiding, I wonder if he'll just be catagorized as "sorry he got involved and now wishes to be hidden" and we'll not ever see any change in him either way.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 21, 2006 9:11 am (#1623 of 1825)
If Draco stays with Snape, I think we will have to have a lot more chapters that are not from Harry's point of view, which I would adore. We only got the beginning of PS/SS, part of GoF, and part of HBP that way. Personally, I think since the story is NOT told in first person anyway, more passages like that would be helpful. I hope Draco does stay with Snape, and we see what they are doing.

The only other way I can think of to do it is if Dobby and Kreacher are still following Draco, and report back to Harry, but to me, that kind of passage is awkward.



Ice Princess - Aug 21, 2006 1:48 pm (#1624 of 1825)
I thought Harry told Dobby and Kreacher that what they had already done was enough and that they didn't have to follow Draco anymore? But I don't think Dobby and Kreacher would be able to follow Draco outside of Hogwarts without being noticed anyway.



Magic Words - Aug 21, 2006 7:16 pm (#1625 of 1825)
"[Draco] suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself."

Does anyone know whether JKR has said similar things about Voldemort, Snape, or another "evil" character? My gut reaction upon reading this quote in an earlier post was "oh, so she admits he has a good side!" I mean, if you're suppressing something, it's entirely capable of breaking loose at some point, right? He's not like Voldemort, who never developed compassion at all.



Laura W - Aug 23, 2006 3:53 am (#1626 of 1825)
What about ... Well, Draco couldn't get himself to kill Dumbledore on the Tower and Tom Riddle would have done it in a second?

Just throwing this out after reading Magic 's post. Not saying yay or nay re whether Draco has a good side; although, when we last saw him, he was 17 years old and may just be a late bloomer, good-side-wise. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that is what Jo has planned.

Laura



Ice Princess - Aug 23, 2006 1:01 pm (#1627 of 1825)
In my own opinion, I really doubt Draco doesn't have a good side. I agree more with the idea that Draco is surpressing it though, not that he's just a late-bloomer good-side wise, just because he's obviously always banked on what his father's ideas are. Please feel free to disagree though. Smile



Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2006 9:24 pm (#1628 of 1825)
In order to suppress one's good side, one has to have a lack of morals, a lack ethics, and a lack of a definite sense of right and wrong.

Then again, having a good side doesn't mean that said side is that big a part of one's make up.

Draco could have a good side, but since choices are such a large part of these books, it would seem that Draco has chosen not to follow the good part of himself. If Sirius could defy his parents, Draco could have done the same. Draco chose to follow the bad guys, and that says way more about him than him ever having a good side.



painting sheila - Aug 24, 2006 8:04 pm (#1629 of 1825)
I just posted this on another link but thought it would be better here.

Has anyone thought of the James/Snape relationship a fore shadowing of the Harry/Draco relationship?

What if Harry saves Draco, but Draco ends up being the one that lives?



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 24, 2006 8:20 pm (#1630 of 1825)
That is quite possible, as I see it. Harry is so intertwined with Voldemort, that I have always felt it might be necessary for him to die to win.



Magic Words - Aug 25, 2006 10:50 am (#1631 of 1825)
I hope Draco turns out nicer than Snape.



Solitaire - Aug 26, 2006 8:39 am (#1632 of 1825)
Just because Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore doesn't necessarily mean he has a good side. It could mean he was afraid of the repercussions from the WW if he killed Dumbledore. I'm not sure Draco can handle being a complete outcast from society. He needs to feel important and throw his weight around, so to speak. One must be a part of society, to some extent, in order to do this.

Solitaire



Ice Princess - Aug 26, 2006 4:40 pm (#1633 of 1825)
Draco wouldn't have been an outcast amoung the other DE's and that's all he really has to fit in with. In my opinion Solitaire, it wasn't because Draco didn't want to be outcast that kept him from killing DD. Draco is a coward and was scared to kill DD, nevermind he had Snape right behind him to back him up. Draco probablly thought he would be seen as a hero after he killed DD.



wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2006 4:46 pm (#1634 of 1825)
In order to suppress one's good side, one has to have a lack of morals, a lack ethics, and a lack of a definite sense of right and wrong. Weeny Owl

This sounds more like no good side at all. After all, with no morals, ethics, or sense of right and wrong, where's the good side to be suppressed?

Just because Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore doesn't necessarily mean he has a good side. It could mean he was afraid of the repercussions from the WW if he killed Dumbledore. Solitaire

Solitaire, while I agree with you, I don't think Dumbledore would. In other words, I think Dumbledore was trying to say that Draco really wasn't a killer and that (I guess) he must have a good side. Of course, I never quite understood Dumbledore's attitude toward the knowledge that a student was so busy with activities that were almost killing other students.



Weeny Owl - Aug 27, 2006 12:18 pm (#1635 of 1825)
Well, wynnleaf, I suppose his good side is that he genuinely cares about his parents.

What I basically mean is that he has the potential not to be what he's becoming, but he doesn't have the morals, ethics, and sense of right and wrong necessary to understand that what his father stands for is wrong.

He's seen the glamourous side of his father's lifestyle all the time he's been growing up, but now that he is in his late teens he's seeing that there's a part of being allied with Death Eaters that isn't quite so glamourous.

He could choose to fight against Voldemort and the Death Eaters since they certainly don't care about him, but he could also choose to fight with them even more by blaming Dumbledore and Harry for what his life has become.

I could see him going either way on a logical basis, but the character JKR has written so far is way too fond of blaming others for his predicaments, and I think he'll only delve deeper into the dark side.



Solitaire - Aug 27, 2006 1:44 pm (#1636 of 1825)
If Voldemort dies, I suppose Draco could pull out of the DEs, as Snape has (presumably) done. Unless he undergoes a complete attitude adjustment, however--and abandons his ideas of Pure-blood superiority--I doubt he could ever really be considered a "good guy." Well, not by me, anyway.

Solitaire



Choices - Aug 27, 2006 4:15 pm (#1637 of 1825)
If Voldemort were to kill Lucius (and Narcissa), perhaps that would give Draco a reason to leave the DE's. At the beginning of the year (HBP) I think he saw the DE's and Voldemort as glamorous and exciting, but now reality must have set in and I bet he has a different view of them, and that view would change even more if Voldemort were to torture or kill his parents.



painting sheila - Aug 27, 2006 7:32 pm (#1638 of 1825)
I see Draco as someone who has no view point of his own. He has always spewed what his father has told him. I don't think he could kill Dumbledore because he wasn't convinced - he wasn't committed - to the act.

It is easy to repeat what you have heard - but to come up with your own view points and defend them is something all together different.

He may be a "young Snape' I the making. I can't see him ever admitting he was wrong but begrudingly helping defeat the Dark Lord in order to save his mother.

I am not even sure he would save his dad - but I do think he has a strong tie with his mother. She may even be able to convince him to leave the dark side so to speak.



Solitaire - Aug 27, 2006 8:34 pm (#1639 of 1825)
I don't think he could kill Dumbledore because he wasn't convinced - he wasn't committed - to the act.

Very astute observation. I think you may be right. Deep in his heart, Draco knew Dumbledore was not the enemy.

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Aug 28, 2006 8:33 am (#1640 of 1825)
I don't think he could kill Dumbledore because he wasn't convinced - he wasn't committed - to the act.

Very astute observation. I think you may be right. Deep in his heart, Draco knew Dumbledore was not the enemy.

Good points. After all, who was Draco afraid of? Voldemort. Who was threatening his parent's lives? Voldemort. In terms of Draco, personally, Voldemort is the "enemy," even if Draco doesn't activily acknowledge it or even admit it to himself.



rambkowalczyk - Aug 28, 2006 9:04 am (#1641 of 1825)
Speaking of which, remember in book 1 when Draco and Harry were doing detention in the Forbidden Forest. They both encountered Voldemort but didn't recognise it for what it was. When they say some hooded figure drinking unicorn blood, Draco bolted. Harry 'might' have eventually ran but his hurting scar distracted him.



Ice Princess - Aug 31, 2006 6:46 am (#1642 of 1825)
I was sort of thinking the same thing rambkowalczyk. Good points.



Solitaire - Jul 23, 2004 2:35 pm (#1643 of 1825)
Interesting, ramb ... Haven't we seen Draco flee spooky circumstances on more than one occasions? Or am I being "movie contaminated"?



Meoshimo - Sep 2, 2006 5:25 pm (#1644 of 1825)
No, Draco is a coward for the most part. All bark with no bite.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 6:10 am (#1645 of 1825)
The only other act of cowardice I can remember is when the twins said something to the effect of Draco wetting his pants when the dementers came on the train.



Lilly P - Sep 5, 2006 6:39 am (#1646 of 1825)
I think it's an on-going act of cowerdice to walk around with two large cronies (Crabbe and Goyle) to beat people up for you and to protect you from others.



Die Zimtzicke - Sep 5, 2006 10:09 am (#1647 of 1825)
Who did they actually beat up for him, specifically to protect him without them having a stake in it, too? I don't remember that, but I am getting senile at times.



haymoni - Sep 5, 2006 10:26 am (#1648 of 1825)
Neville is all I can recall and I think Neville actually jumped on them first.

I think their job is just to look menacing. They don't seem to be able to do very much more than that.



Lilly P - Sep 5, 2006 10:30 am (#1649 of 1825)
I guess it seemed "implied" to me as thoes are the traditional roles for thugs.



painting sheila - Sep 5, 2006 10:35 am (#1650 of 1825)
Lily P: It does make you wonder what their "power" level is. Draco chickened out at the last minute although we have been shown he knows his stuff as far as magic goes.

But what about his goonies? Are they a threat magically or just bidily?

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1651 to 1700

Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 9:01 am

haymoni - Sep 5, 2006 10:50 am (#1651 of 1825)
I don't think they are a real threat either way.

They are just for show.



Vulture - Sep 30, 2006 7:16 am (#1652 of 1825)
Sorry if I'm interrupting:

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JKR says: "She was talking to her husband, Neil, recently, after she had just written the death of one particular character. "He shuddered. 'Oh don't do that,' he said to me, but of course I did."

And with one swirl of her pen, millions of children will weep or rejoice." ( Diagon Nilly, "+ Who will die in books 6/7?" #680, 10 Jan 2006 5:11 pm )

The only character whose death about which "millions of children will weep or rejoice" is our beloved former Potions professor, Severus Snape. About the only character for whom there are large numbers of people hating and loving. ( Steve Newton, "+ Who will die in books 6/7?" #684, 11 Jan 2006 7:18 am )

I thought Snape initially too,Steve.Another could possibly be Draco ... ( Madame Pomfrey, "+ Who will die in books 6/7?" #685, 11 Jan 2006 8:53 am )

I just spotted this. Has this been discussed in here at the time ? The "weep or rejoice" does seem to be a giveaway, doesn't it ? Has to be Draco or Snape, in my opinion.

Ah _ just occurs to me _ the sentence "And with one swirl of her pen ...", etc., was written by a journalist, and I doubt if JKR confided who the dying character was. So maybe Draco and Snape are off the hook.



S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 1:38 pm (#1653 of 1825)
Vulture, I can't find that quote anywhere at that link. Do you have a better link anywhere?



shadzar - Sep 30, 2006 2:34 pm (#1654 of 1825)
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also here

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S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 3:41 pm (#1655 of 1825)
Thanks shadzar.

So, a journalist, not JKR, made the actual "weep or rejoice" comment. I don't think the "weep or rejoice" is referring to one character having both reactions, but to the character's death causing one of the two reactions, depending on who the character is, because I don't think the journalist knows.



haymoni - Sep 30, 2006 5:32 pm (#1656 of 1825)
Name any character - there are those of us who hate them and those of us who love them.

Some find Hagrid loveable, some find him annoying. Some find Draco interesting, some find him vile.

Ginny, Hermione, Ron, Molly, Percy - even Harry himself (at least in Book 5!) I'm not even touching Snape!

I think maybe the Twins are the only characters most folks agree on.

Any major character that is killed off will cause some to weep and some to scream for joy.



S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 6:26 pm (#1657 of 1825)
haymoni, I was just thinking, since this is coming from the journalist, not JKR, that we should't put too much stock in it. There would probably be few fans who would be upset if Lucius died, but most fans still seem to be in denial of Dumbledore's death; sure everyone has their own favorites and least liked, but I was thinking of the fans in general. There are some characters that the fans would be split on, sure, but I was just thinking that the journalist was stating something overall rather than trying to give us a hint.



haymoni - Sep 30, 2006 8:24 pm (#1658 of 1825)
I think they call that "creative writing"!!

Now back to our favorite Death Nibbler...



haymoni - Jun 5, 2007 6:26 pm (#1659 of 1825)
Happy Birthday Ferret Face

Happy Birthday Ferret Face!



Solitaire - Jun 5, 2007 8:53 pm (#1660 of 1825)
LOL haymoni!



Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2007 4:06 am (#1661 of 1825)
I thought that ferret face was Frank Burns.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 6, 2007 6:00 am (#1662 of 1825)
Seems to me Draco was ferret all over! LOL!



journeymom - Jun 6, 2007 11:20 am (#1663 of 1825)
Didn't Ron call him 'ferret face'?

Oh, my gosh, you're right. Hotlips Houlihan called Frank Burns 'ferret face' on M*A*S*H.



Solitaire - Jun 6, 2007 2:29 pm (#1664 of 1825)
LOL Steve! Given the fact that I've seen every single M*A*S*H episode many, many times and can almost recite every character's dialogue by heart, I should have made that snappy remark! **bowing and tipping my hat to you**

Solitaire



haymoni - Jun 9, 2007 4:53 am (#1665 of 1825)
Draco Malfoy = Frank Burns

I can see that!



Madam Pince - Jun 10, 2007 7:51 am (#1666 of 1825)
I just read about 300+ Draco posts -- this has been an interesting thread!

I have long believed that Draco will turn on Voldy and the DEs in Book 7 and will be somewhat redeemed, but will not (as someone put it) end up marrying a muggle-born. Sirius told us that people are not divided up into neat categories of "good people" and "Death Eaters", so I think there's room for Draco to be redeemed but still not be some sort of shining hero -- that would be a bit much, and he's been a bit too nasty so far. But I would say that he is definitely a product of his environment. He has been raised around some pretty nasty attitudes, and I think a lot of his attitudes are thus almost parrot-like.

Another thing to keep in mind, which some seem to discount and some seem to believe, is the fact that even at the end of HBP, Draco is still pretty young. Not only young, but immature as well. In many cases, actions taken at that age which could seem totally evil in a more mature person because they disregard the possibility of collateral damage (ie: poison and neckace attempts going awry and hurting innocents), are really only a product of immaturity. At that age, most are so focused on their goal, that they truly don't even see the possibility of failure. Why else are there so many traffic accidents with teens driving drunk at 90 m.p.h.? They simply don't think it will happen to them. Draco simply did not think he would fail. He's 16. (or 17. Whichever.) I am still holding out hope for him to change, but I do not expect him to be a saint.

Anyway, the reason I wandered over here: The new cover art for the Deluxe edition of DH has been released, showing the Trio riding a dragon. Draco=dragon. JKR has not as yet given us any reason why she would've chosen that particular name for Lucius' son. Any takers on the theory that Draco will end up having taken Animagus lessons over the summer and will be the dragon on the cover, helping the Trio in some way?



rambkowalczyk - Jun 10, 2007 8:51 am (#1667 of 1825)
Some of this discussion was/is going on in the Deathly Hallows thread. Some believe that because it took James three years to become an animagus that it would take Draco the same amount of time. But who is to say that Draco didn't start 3 years ago at home?



Madam Pince - Jun 10, 2007 9:55 am (#1668 of 1825)
Could be, but Draco has been awfully silent on the subject if he has. Of course, we don't see as much everyday conversation / interaction with him as we do with Harry. But being the teenage big-mouth braggart that he is, one who loves being the center of attention, it seems like he would've been dropping little clues amongst his peers like he did with "I'm a DE-in-training."

But then JKR would've left that out, so as not to spoil her big Book 7 surprise...

Also, it seemed like the Marauders were self-taught, and perhaps Draco has been tutored by some powerful witch or wizard. That might cut down the learning curve significantly.



haymoni - Jun 10, 2007 11:56 am (#1669 of 1825)
Maybe Hermione transfigures him into a dragon.



sstabeler - Jun 21, 2007 12:58 pm (#1670 of 1825)
I'd have thought hermione would transfigure him into a ferret, myself. and draco might end u an animagus, although I could more see hermione as an animagus. ( harry has already been discounted). personally, I would like to see hermione be a cat animagus. why? the furry face in CS. maybe a foreshadowing of her becoming a cat animagus later? and int he otehr thread, it was raised the possibility that there would be too many animagi if the dragon was an animagus. at worst, 1 in 308 ( approx 15 hogwarts staff, not including dumbledore, 600 students.) is the ratio of aniamgi:ordinary wizards, and we have only 1 animagus in hogwarts. ergo, we are overdue for another.



rambkowalczyk - Jun 21, 2007 8:08 pm (#1671 of 1825)
Almost every single instance we see Draco he is disrespectful, or condescending. Only in book six do we see another side to him. I wonder if there isn't a more kinder gentler Draco. I don't mean that he will all of a sudden accept Muggleborns into his life but that he has a sense of awe about something. Perhaps this something is dragons.

Granted the events in POA when he insulted Buckbeak seem to argue against this, but maybe he could learn from his mistakes. But why did Draco take care of magical creatures instead of say arithmancy. Draco doesn't seem to be the type who would take care of anything. He knows that Hagrid loves dragons. Maybe he was jealous that Harry got to see a dragon close up and he didn't.



totyle - Jun 21, 2007 9:32 pm (#1672 of 1825)
Most of the DE's children we have seen, seem to be a victim of their family upbringing. Draco no exception. DE's children seem to end up in Slytherin and the vicious cycle continues. If there is another positive side of Draco to be shown in DH I would be very surprised.



Solitaire - Jun 21, 2007 10:58 pm (#1673 of 1825)
I rather doubt there is a kinder, gentler side of Draco ... at the moment. I think what we saw in HBP is probably the first time in his life that Draco did not have anyone to bail him out when he got in over his head. For once, he couldn't threaten his enemies with Lucius Malfoy, because Lucius is not available. Narcissa seems fairly ineffectual in the threatening department, and Aunt Bella is useless in this particular endeavor. He couldn't very well go to Dumbledore--well, he could have, but he opted not to do that. He even seemed to spurn Snape's help.

I think Draco initially felt important to be charged with rubbing out Dumbledore. Like his father, he has never respected Dumbledore and he felt more than capable of killing the doddering, old Muggle-loving fool, as he has referred to Dumbledore. But I do not think Draco ever thought that he would actually have to LOOK at his victim, hence the necklace and poisoned wine. I suspect Lucius has killed more than once and has talked about it within Draco's hearing, so Draco has become "detached" about death. I think that detachment shows in his casual reference to Fenrir Greyback. We can see on the Tower that Draco really does not consider him a friend. He was name-dropping, and I think it backfired on him!

The first ray of hope (to me) that Draco could possibly be redeemed comes when he is holding a wand on Dumbledore but unable to use it. For the first time, I suspect, he understood what it felt like to be in a desperate situation. He knew that if he killed Dumbledore, he would be forced to be a fugitive in the Wizarding World. If he didn't, he would be a fugitive from LV ... until such time as Voldemort or his goons caught up with him and his family and killed them. He couldn't buy his way out of this situation, and he couldn't bully his way out and expect his dad to mop up the mess.

For the first time in his life, Draco was on his own ... or he thought he was. In reality, Snape had his back. He acted for Draco at the expense of his own reputation and freedom. And his actions may still not have been welcomed by Voldemort, either ... we do not know yet.

I would love to see some self-examination on the part of Draco ... but I am not holding my breath. I wouldn't doubt it if, once they stop running, he began to rag on Snape for either interfering ... or NOT getting there soon enough! Still, if he is going to turn into a "mensch," now is the time. I hope I am dead wrong about him, and I hope he helps Harry.

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2007 8:54 am (#1674 of 1825)
On the whole, Solitaire, I agree with your post. My guess is that JKR will have him turn (at least in part), and do something to help the Order. But your last paragraph would be just as much in character (maybe more so, based on what JKR has shown us so far).

Slightly different from you, I saw my first ray of hope for Draco in his crying in the bathrooms with Myrtle. Just to even be able to tolerate Myrtle is something in itself. And he apparently went to visit her voluntarily. Myrtle says, prior to the Sectumsempra chapter,

"He said he’d come back and see me..."

The idea that he'd accept her sympathy indicated to me that he was feeling quite desperate.

Myrtle was talking to Ron and Harry, who don't know who the weeping boy is who visits Myrtle.

‘When you say you had lots in common,’ said Ron, sounding rather amused now, ‘d’you mean he lives in an S-bend, too?’

‘No.’ said Myrtle defiantly, her voice echoing loudly around the old tiled bathroom. ‘I mean he’s sensitive, people bully him, too, and he feels lonely and hasn’t got anybody to talk to, and he’s not afraid to show his feelings and cry!’

And then, in the Sectumsempra Chapter, Draco told Myrtle:

‘No one can help me,’ said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. ‘I can’t do it ... I can’t ... it won’t work ... and unless I do it soon ... he says he’ll kill me ...’

This isn't exactly a "kinder and gentler" side of Draco, but I do think we're being shown that Draco already knew he was in way over his head, and that he felt he'd been pushed very hard into it under threat of his life. Later, we learn that his parent's lives were threatened as well. That doesn't make Draco better. Any villian could have their life threatened after all and it doesn't improve them. However, I think JKR was showing us that Draco doesn't do everything just because he wants to or is simply that kind of nasty, evil kid. Instead, he's grown up in an environment that not only shaped his opinions but also pressured him into backing up those opinions with evil actions.

It reminds me of some kinds of Mafia or other organized crime stories, where entire families for generations participate and children are raised to be a part of it.



Solitaire - Jun 22, 2007 10:14 am (#1675 of 1825)
"... I mean he’s sensitive, people bully him, too, and he feels lonely and hasn’t got anybody to talk to, and he’s not afraid to show his feelings and cry!"

You may be right, Wynnleaf. I am such a skeptic where Draco is concerned. I dislike him SO much more than I dislike Snape! LOL I have come--grudgingly, I admit--to believe that Snape is probably on the good side and was genuinely trying to impart some sound teaching to Harry as he fled Hogwarts (not that Harry actually heard any of it). Since you know my opinion of Snape, you must own I've come a long, long way!

As far as Draco is concerned, however, I still see him in all of his swaggering and pomp. I'm also curious as to whether he sought out Voldemort--possibly with the view of asking his help in getting Lucius out of Azkaban--or Voldemort came to Narcissa and Draco and more or less "assigned" Draco the task of killing Dumbledore. Given Draco's demeanor on the train, the latter seems probable.

I'm just not sure whether his behavior and confessions to Myrtle really demonstrate the glimmer of a genuine change, or whether he knew he couldn't very well dissolve into tears or whine for help (the way he probably does at home) in front of his Slytherin pals, so he did it in private, to Myrtle. His immediate response to Harry with the Cruciatus Curse seems pretty well in character with his usual attitude and behavior. Harry's use of the Sectumsempra is incredibly irresponsible, I agree ... but at least he had the decency to be shocked at what he'd done to another human being. Frankly, I do not see Draco exhibiting that kind of remorse ... at least, not yet.

I'm sorry if that seems to ramble. I seem to be in my "ruminating mode."

Solitaire



Chemyst - Jun 22, 2007 11:22 am (#1676 of 1825)
I do not see Draco exhibiting that kind of remorse… - Soli

Well, I can't fully disagree. That Draco would even consider killing DD shows he was acutely disturbed, and his moanings to Myrtle were more of a "misery loves company" feel-better effort than any intrepid struggle over ethics.

I'm not sure what I want to see happen to Draco. Humiliation does not seem to have much effect on him. It made entertaining scenes in the story, however.

But why did Draco take care of magical creatures instead of say arithmancy. Draco doesn't seem to be the type who would take care of anything. - ramb

Draco would take care of himself, so he probably avoids classes where he might have to actually study. COMC probably appeals to the him because Hagrid doesn't assign 20 –page essays once a fortnight. And then too, hanging out with Crabbe and Goyle is probably a bit like taking care of magical creatures.



rambkowalczyk - Jun 22, 2007 11:33 am (#1677 of 1825)
As usual I may not have explained myself correctly. I had a specific thing in mind but not the words to express them adequately.

In GOF when Hagrid disappeared, Prof Grubblyplank introduced the unicorns. What I remembered from that scene was that Pansy Parkinson was impressed, that is for once she did not make fun of the class. She was in awe of the creature. In none of the books has Draco expressed any of that type of awe for anything. It has the effect of making Draco an obnoxious person because he tends to ridicule everything that other people might like.

By insulting everyone, Draco hurts himself because he knows that if he expresses respect for something that he could be made fun of. Because Draco is afraid of being made fun of he doesn't live up to his potential. He is afraid to try things that are different.

He became a Death Eater because that how he thought it should be. He never thought to question his parents. Now things have changed. Will Draco change a little?

Although I think it is possible for Draco to be an Animagus, I think he needs to undergo a change in attitude--to respect a dragon before he can change into one.

Draco would take care of himself, so he probably avoids classes where he might have to actually study. COMC probably appeals to the him because Hagrid doesn't assign 20 –page essays once a fortnight. And then too, hanging out with Crabbe and Goyle is probably a bit like taking care of magical creatures.

very possible but why didn't he take Divination. It is possible that the only reason Draco took COMC is so the author could use Draco to annoy Harry. But It does make me wonder if Draco could be an Animagus and taking COMC is Draco's roundabout way of discovering what his inner animal is.



journeymom - Jun 22, 2007 12:34 pm (#1678 of 1825)
Do we know that Draco didn't take Divination? Perhaps he didn't take it in the same class with the Trio. Gryffindor and Slytherin have had Potions, CoMC and Herbology together, but Harry and the Gryffindors don't have all their classes with Slytherin, do they? Maybe Draco took arithmancy at a different time. But I agree, I doubt he'd willingly take a class as challenging as arithmancy.



Solitaire - Jun 22, 2007 12:45 pm (#1679 of 1825)
I agree that Draco does not much care for anything but himself and his parents, and I think Chemyst hit it on the nose here: Draco would take care of himself, so he probably avoids classes where he might have to actually study. COMC probably appeals to the him because Hagrid doesn't assign 20–page essays once a fortnight. And then too, hanging out with Crabbe and Goyle is probably a bit like taking care of magical creatures. Draco is just as lazy as Harry is--and while I love Harry, I DO think he is lazy!

Ramb, I also believe you have eloquently captured some important aspects of Draco in your post above. I think his pure-blood prejudices may prevent him from truly valuing any magical creatures. I'm not sure he has any real friends--not in the same vein as RHR. I can't see C&G, Pansy, or Blaise putting their lives on the line for Draco or marching into potentially lethal situations with him, as Ron and Hermione have done with Harry. IMO, he values Crabbe and Goyle only because they are useful to him and look up to him.

He became a Death Eater because that how he thought it should be. He never thought to question his parents. Now things have changed.

This is a tough area. If Draco begins to question his parents' (or at least Lucius's) role in the DEs, then perhaps he will begin to question their attitudes and beliefs on many other things ... like their rabid Pure-Blood prejudices. Then again, he may question only the wisdom of getting involved in an organization that does not allow dropping out as an option.

I don't really see Draco as an Animagus candidate. I think he'd have discovered this ability before now ... and would have used it in his "task." JM2K, however ...

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Jun 24, 2007 4:14 pm (#1680 of 1825)
This is a tough area. If Draco begins to question his parents' (or at least Lucius's) role in the DEs, then perhaps he will begin to question their attitudes and beliefs on many other things ... like their rabid Pure-Blood prejudices. Then again, he may question only the wisdom of getting involved in an organization that does not allow dropping out as an option. (Solitaire)

I can't really see Draco questioning his pureblood prejudices. Nothing has really happened to him to make him question that. What I can see him question is the wisdom of following after an evil, malevolent, power hungry, dictatorial madman. I see Draco's primary value system as built on family -- his family in particular. His family is pureblood, therefore pureblood is the only perfect way to be. Voldemort has threatened both Draco and his family. Voldemort has become a really Bad Choice, according to Draco's own value system.

What I haven't seen is anything that would really affect Draco's value system in terms of the pureblood family aspect.

Now what might change that would be if he went over to the Order's side because of his current desire to get himself and his family away from Voldemort's threat, and found that he received help from the non-purebloods, the Gryffindors, etc. who he had disdained.



Solitaire - Jun 24, 2007 4:22 pm (#1681 of 1825)
I wonder what Draco will say when he finds out--as he surely must--that Voldemort is not a Pure-blood Wizard.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 24, 2007 7:43 pm (#1682 of 1825)
We don't know if anything has happened to make Draco question pureblood predjudices. Personally, I'm still hoping something has or soon will.



Solitaire - Jun 24, 2007 8:00 pm (#1683 of 1825)
Die, I am not too optimistic that anything will happen, but I think this is the war to make such a thing happen. It seems to me that the magical world is hanging in the balance, perhaps more so than it has in previous wars and in the grips of previous evil wizards. It may be that if the younger Wizarding generations (I'm calling anyone under 60 "younger," given the age spans) want the magical world to survive this war in any kind of decent shape, they are going to have to take responsibility for wiping out the prejudices.

If someone like Draco can be made to understand the irrationality of such prejudices, then others of his generation could follow suit. It's a mighty big "if," however. One thing interests me: Is Durmstrang a pure-blood stronghold ... or is it just a Dark Arts stronghold? I can't help thinking some sort of assistance against Voldemort's forces may come from that quarter. Of course, it's probably just wishful thinking ...

Solitaire



MickeyCee3948 - Jun 25, 2007 7:58 pm (#1684 of 1825)
I don't believe that Tom will be very happy with Draco over his failure to follow his masters orders. He might also be a little perturbed at Narcissa for the vow with Snape. I wouldn't be surprised if the two of them are forced into hiding from Tom in DH. And where else to hide but the Order.

I doubt if Draco will help HRH out of feeling for redemption. He is only capable of thinking about himself and perhaps his mother who is all that he has left. He might help HRH if he thinks it will be to his advantage in the end. I think he would prefer to deal with HRH rather than Tom (if you know what I mean) cough AK cough

Mickey



Robert Dierken - Jun 25, 2007 9:55 pm (#1685 of 1825)
Maybe Hermione will transfigure Draco into a Blast Ended Skrewt!



Solitaire - Jun 25, 2007 10:15 pm (#1686 of 1825)
... or a ferret. Remember she called him a "twitchy little ferret."



haymoni - Jul 4, 2007 11:23 am (#1687 of 1825)
I wonder how Voldy communicated with Draco - threatening him with his life if he didn't finish his task quickly enough.

He doesn't seem the type to use Owl Post.

Mmmm...



Hoot Owl - Jul 4, 2007 12:50 pm (#1688 of 1825)
Apparation by LV to the Malfoys Manor? Draco went along with his mother and aunt when they were summoned to LV's Hq?



Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 1:08 pm (#1689 of 1825)
Didn't Volemort use an Owl to communicate with Moody/CrouchJr in GoF?



Choices - Jul 4, 2007 6:55 pm (#1690 of 1825)
Voldemort could hardly apparate to Hogsmeade and stroll up the front drive into Hogwarts to deliver the message in person to Barty, Jr.

I figured it was summer vacation and Draco probably visited Voldemort's headquarters with someone (Crabbe or Goyle, Sr. or Narcissa perhaps) or was summoned there by Voldemort through one of his DE's. Perhaps it was then that he was approached about joining the DE's or about performing the task for Voldemort.



Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:11 pm (#1691 of 1825)

Voldemort could hardly apparate to Hogsmeade and stroll up the front drive into Hogwarts to deliver the message in person to Barty, Jr.


Don't see why. Several other people who aren't supposed to be at Hogwarts have done it. Using everything from Polyjuice potion to Animagi forms. Peter, Crouch Jr, Sirius.

Draco let a handful of people into the castle through the vanishing cabinet. As tight as security is there, it's been defeated many times.

Exactly how Voldemort was communicating with Draco is a fair question though. Do the DEs have a form of communication other than the dark mark's "come here now" signal, or was there never a need for Draco to be contacted by the Dark Lord.



Solitaire - Jul 4, 2007 7:15 pm (#1692 of 1825)
Now that Voldemort's existence has been officially acknowledged by the Ministry and the Wizarding World in general, he is more able to get out and about, I suppose. After all, who is going to attempt to stop him? I do not think it is impossible that he might have apparated to Malfoy Manor to terrify Narcissa and draft Draco into his service. Of course, a very persuasive invitation might also have been issued by owl.

Solitaire



Choices - Jul 4, 2007 7:21 pm (#1693 of 1825)
LOL Somehow I can't see him traveling by Floo Powder. LOL



Solitaire - Jul 4, 2007 8:32 pm (#1694 of 1825)
No, Choices, nor can I envision him on a broom ... even a Firebolt!



Madame Pomfrey - Jul 5, 2007 9:43 am (#1695 of 1825)
Nor the Knight bus!



rambkowalczyk - Jul 5, 2007 12:38 pm (#1696 of 1825)
It's possible that Nott or Zabini or even one of the Slytherin girls might be a Death Eater as well. Nott for instance is sort of low key. He could be the perfect messenger for sending Voldemort's messages. Plus the fact that his father is a Death Eater. Nott Sr could be communicating with him and no one would think anything of it.



Soul Search - Jul 5, 2007 1:52 pm (#1697 of 1825)
Why couldn't Voldemort and Draco be communicating via a method as simple as post owls?

Harry sent owls to Sirus addressed to "Snuffles" to keep anyone from realizing their true addressee. In the same vein, Draco could be sending them to ... I don't know ... "No Nose." Or "Snake Eyes." How about "Slithers."



Hagsquid - Jul 5, 2007 2:09 pm (#1698 of 1825)
Or Tommy. Wink

I just think it's rather lame that Voldemort, who is a wizard near the level of DD, couldn't find a better way to communicate than Owls...



Solitaire - Jul 5, 2007 5:02 pm (#1699 of 1825)
I don't know if I'd call it lame, Hagsquid, but I agree that owls seem rather ... mundane for someone as "special" (read egotistical) as Lord Voldemort. Perhaps he sends Nagini! LOL Now, there's a messenger that would scare the Polyjuice out of anyone who was thinking of double-crossing him!

Solitaire



Mrs Brisbee - Jul 5, 2007 8:06 pm (#1700 of 1825)
Wasn't Voldemort getting messages via eagle owl in GoF? Coincidently, that's even the same kind of owl the Malfoys own.

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Draco Malfoy - Page 2 Empty Posts 1701 to 1750

Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 10:25 am

Jenniffler - Jul 5, 2007 9:28 pm (#1701 of 1825)
Good catch, Mrs Brisbee!



Choices - Jul 6, 2007 9:52 am (#1702 of 1825)
I thought Voldemort was at the Crouch home for a time and was using Mr. Crouch's owl to send a message to Barty, Jr. at Hogwarts - the message that his father had escaped and was probably heading to Hogwarts. Since we have never seen evidence of Voldemort using an owl to communicate, except this one time, I figured the eagle owl belonged to the Crouch family rather than to Voldemort. (Information from GOF, chapter Veritaserum near the end.) It is correct that the Malfoy's also have an eagle owl, but Voldemort was staying temporarily at the Crouch home so it seems likely he would use their owl to send messages.



Solitaire - Jul 6, 2007 10:21 am (#1703 of 1825)
It makes sense to me, Choices ...



Anna L. Black - Jul 6, 2007 1:00 pm (#1704 of 1825)
Going a few posts back:

Several other people who aren't supposed to be at Hogwarts have done it. Using everything from Polyjuice potion to Animagi forms. Peter, Crouch Jr, Sirius. - Hagsquid

And Voldy himself, on the back of Quirell's head

Edited to fix caps-lock.



zelmia - Aug 4, 2007 4:00 pm (#1705 of 1825)
I think it's kind of interesting that Draco, whom Harry immediately thinks is like his horrible cousin Dudley in Book 1, like Dudley, also does a great deal of growing up between OP and DH. In the end, both Draco and Dudley are able to offer Harry a grudging respect, though arguable Dudley's is a bit more genuine.
Draco, in his own way, actually tries to protect the Trio when they are brought to Malfoy Manor, even Hermione. This is a far cry from the spoiled little boy who mockingly warned Hermione to keep her head down in the forests outside the Quidditch World Cup stadium.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 4, 2007 4:41 pm (#1706 of 1825)
I wish I knew what happened to Lucius, and who Draco married. I htink Narcissa pretty much ruled the roost after the whole thing was over, and that things were better for Draco as a result. Narcissa is a much better role model for Draco than his father, as I see it.



wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 5:34 pm (#1707 of 1825)
Die,

I gathered from JKR's Chat comments that Lucius was not put back in Azkaban. That's pretty odd to me. Still, she seems to have been indicating that Lucius followed Voldemort more out of fear than anything which makes sense to me. I could never really see the advantages for Lucius -- already wealthy and powerful -- to go back and start supporting the returned Voldemort.



TomProffitt - Aug 4, 2007 6:04 pm (#1708 of 1825)
I could never really see the advantages for Lucius -- already wealthy and powerful -- to go back and start supporting the returned Voldemort. --- wynnleaf

He had no more choice than Regulus Black or Karkarof. Given the opportunity Lucius would have weasled out of the DE just as he twice Weasled his way out of Azkaban at each of Voldemort's falls. (JKR told us in webchat I believe that the Malfoys avoided Azkaban again.)

It was fitting that Draco, a constant foil for Harry through out the series, would abandon Voldemort at the same time Harry is giving his life away for the cause.



Jenniffler - Aug 5, 2007 5:28 pm (#1709 of 1825)
Draco has a son named Scorpius. I find it funny, because Scor-Pius matches with the preacher-like dress robes Draco wore at the Yule Ball. Very stuck up and haughty. Also, it goes with the Black family tree "Star" theme.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2007 9:54 am (#1710 of 1825)
I wonder whether the naming of his son Scorpious is a realization that his family were stung by Voldemort.



MickeyCee3948 - Aug 6, 2007 4:38 pm (#1711 of 1825)
I see Lucius with no wand as having to live the rest of his life without magic perhaps instead of putting him in Azkaban the MOM had him turned into a squib. That would be just punishment considering his treatment of Dobby.

Mickey



Jenniffler - Aug 6, 2007 4:50 pm (#1712 of 1825)
Mickey C, Even if Lucius was allowed a wand, do you think Ollivander would make him one? I don't think so.

I kind of would have liked to see Harry return Draco's wand. That would have been awesomely humiliating for Draco. Another fist in the air yes moment: "Here's the wand that defeated the baddest wizard of all time, try to live up to it, you ferret."



MickeyCee3948 - Aug 6, 2007 5:05 pm (#1713 of 1825)
I think that by the end of DH, Harry more pitied Draco than hated him. He knew just how much the Malfoy's had been brought down. We also need to remember that without Narcissa's lie that it might have never happen. Harry did owe them something, maybe returning Draco's wand would have been fitting.

Mickey



Puck - Aug 6, 2007 5:38 pm (#1714 of 1825)
Would the wand have even worked for Draco anymore?

I think Draco likely viewed Harry and company the way Percy saw his family during HBP. It's harder to forgive someone for being right than for being wrong.



Solitaire - Aug 6, 2007 7:46 pm (#1715 of 1825)
Puck, I think you've hit it on the head with the Draco/Percy analogy. As to whether Harry owed the Malfoys anything, Mickey ... I'm not sure I agree. All of the misery that befell the Malfoys was a direct result of their choices back in the last Voldy war. I'm just glad that, when she had the chance, Narcissa chose to cast her lot with Harry rather than follow her sister and Voldemort. It is probably the decision which meant she and her family lived rather than died.

Solitaire



Good Evans - Aug 8, 2007 12:26 pm (#1716 of 1825)
I think that Draco knows he and his family owe harry a debt, but at the same time their is so much water under the bridge, a grudging respect on both sides, borne from maturity and the fact that as Sirius said, there are not just good wizards and death eaters! Draco was never a death eater, he was a silly boy, in many ways so was his arrogant and superior father. They all learned a very nasty lesson. I liked that hostilities had ceased from Draco and Harry (Ron .. well typical!!) that relationship was exactly as it should be and could be.

yeah, I liked it..



zelmia - Aug 8, 2007 1:58 pm (#1717 of 1825)
Actually Draco was a Death Eater, with the Dark Mark and everything. But he learned VERY quickly, like Regulus and others before him, that you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort.



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2007 10:25 pm (#1718 of 1825)
I am hoping the Malfoys were forever wiser for all that happened. I don't think anyone would expect Draco to become bosom buddies with HRH--all or any of them. As Julie says, there is just too much water under the bridge. Hopefully, however, he took some serious time to reflect on and learn from the tragedies he witnessed--some of which he helped to bring about--enough to raise little Skorpius with a better world view.

Solitaire



Chemyst - Aug 9, 2007 4:53 am (#1719 of 1825)
Actually Draco was a Death Eater, with the Dark Mark and everything. -zelmia

True, but as Dumbledore brought out on the Tower, Draco's death eating was only skin deep. So if I may edit Good Evans original statement to "Draco was never a death eater (at heart), he was a silly boy," then I can agree with both of you.



Madam Pince - Aug 11, 2007 9:31 am (#1720 of 1825)
I thought the name Scorpius had to do with constellations again, which is sort of a Black family thing. Isn't there a constellation that's a scorpion? And there is a dragon/Draco one, too, right?

Wonder if the Dark Marks disappeared off the DE's forearms when Voldemort died?



Solitaire - Aug 11, 2007 6:13 pm (#1721 of 1825)
Wonder if the Dark Marks disappeared off the DE's forearms when Voldemort died?

Interesting thought , Madam P ... I bet they did!



Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2007 4:20 am (#1722 of 1825)
Actually, I just finally got around to reading JKR's webchat, and she answered that question for us. She said they fade away but leave a scar not dissimilar to Harry's scar, and that like his scar they no longer burn or hurt. I think that's fair -- leave a bit of a reminder just to keep you honest.

She also confirmed that Narcissa was never a full-blown Death Eater and did not have a Dark Mark.



zelmia - Aug 12, 2007 12:55 pm (#1723 of 1825)
Didn't Karkaroff say that they never knew who all of the other Death Eaters were? And then in the opening chapter we have all of them convened at a meeting. Was Karkaroff lying, or was he never invited to the meetings?



Mediwitch - Aug 12, 2007 5:29 pm (#1724 of 1825)
I assumed that "all" the DEs weren't at the Malfoys' house, just a select crowd.



Joanna Lupin - Sep 21, 2007 9:04 am (#1725 of 1825)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 2:38 am
Even though this post by Joanna Lupin, which is now at the bottom of this message, may not be the best to begin with as to the movement of messages from the Lucius Malfoy thread to this Draco Malfoy thread, I felt it was necessary to start with this message to keep the discussions flowing in some sort of continuity. This message and most of the following eight messages were originally on the Lucius Malfoy thread and followed Solitaire's Sep 21, 2007 7:23 am post.

This post of Joanna Lupin was in response to the statement by Mrs. Sirius:

Draco realized longer ago that he was on the wrong side. Proof of that I think is his refusal to identify Harry at Malfoy Manor.
I hope this makes sense. The quote from Mrs. Sirius preceded Solitaire's post to which I provided the previous link.

I hope that my moves and edits do not slow the on-going discussions. - Kip

I think Draco realised his mistake much earlier than Malfoy's Manor. I think it was at the top of Astronomy Tower when he did not murder Dumbledore. Of course, he neither had a chance to go over to the right side, nor did he have the courage to act.



Mrs. Sirius - Sep 21, 2007 12:13 pm (#1726 of 1825)
Yes Joanna, I agree. Up on the tower Draco realized the enormity of what he was about to do and was unable to do go through with it. But we don't see him again, he doesn't show us any decision making again until HRH are in Malfoy manner.

When we first see him in DH, he is terrified and is treated like a go-for.



haymoni - Sep 21, 2007 7:23 pm (#1727 of 1825)
I think Draco was about to act on the Tower, but the others showed up.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt anyway.

I just can't imagine everyone else in the Wizarding World forgiving Lucius. I'm guessing he made a return visit to Azkaban.



PeskyPixie - Sep 22, 2007 12:00 pm (#1728 of 1825)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 3:03 am
While I agree that Draco did realize that it was not in him to be a true Death Eater (ie: he could handle the murder and torture in theory, but not in practice), and he helped HRH by not snitching on them at Malfoy Manor, I wonder to what extent he truly opposed Voldemort?

During the Battle of Hogwarts he could have easily left the school with the other fleeing students. Instead, he chose to stay behind to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort with hopes of being 'rewarded'. I assume the 'reward' is to be in Voldemort's good books once again?

So, did he truly believe that HRH were the only hope for the world and that Voldemort's establishment was one of evil and tyranny? What would make him try to hand Harry over to Voldemort if his actions at Malfoy Manor were an attempt to shield Harry from death?

Also, I remember a discussion a while ago regarding Draco being at home for Easter and whether or not this was common practice at Hogwarts, done by parents in a time of war, or simply written in for the chapter at Malfoy Manor. I was reading PoA and in chapter 3 ('The Knight Bus') Cornelius Fudge discusses with Harry whether he'll be staying at school for Christmas and Easter holidays. So, some students probably did go home for Easter but it was never mentioned as it didn't apply to Harry, Ron and Hermione.

I moved the following first paragraph of this post of PeskyPixie from the beginning of this message to the bottom of this message once I started moving some nine posts from the Lucius Malfoy thread to this Draco Malfoy thread, which was in the = Present Students Group Section Folder along with other Student threads, each of which had not received posts within 30 days of their last post. - Kip

I couldn't find a Draco thread, so I thought I'd post this here as we're on the subject anyway.



zelmia - Sep 22, 2007 12:56 pm (#1729 of 1825)
Easter Break is mentioned throughout the series, actually, though perhaps not as noticeably as Christmas.

I think Draco was again fooling himself into thinking that he could actually take control of a desperate situation. Though Draco himself was relatively protected for the moment, neither of his parents had wands (he was using his mum's) and were, at that point, helpless prisoners of the Dark Lord.
I also think that Draco must have felt this a bit less daunting than the task of killing Dumbledore because of Voldemort's express orders that Harry be left untouched until Voldemort himself could deal with him. Where Draco fails is thinking that Harry "is going to come quietly".

On a separate note, when Draco is later frantically trying to convince another Death Eater "I'm a Death Eater too!" why didn't he just show the guy his tattoo?



PeskyPixie - Sep 22, 2007 1:36 pm (#1730 of 1825)
Easter Break is most certainly mentioned throughout the series (Mrs. Weasley's Easter packages especially come to mind, as well as students discussing studying vs. slacking off for the holiday).

However, the discussion I had read (I can not remember when it was, but it has been a while) regarded whether or not it was normal for Hogwarts students to go home for Easter or whether JKR had only done this for the Draco-Harry moment at Malfoy Manor. Thus, the reference to Fudge and Harry's conversation in PoA.

I agree with your post, but do you think Draco saw Harry as the only hope left to the wizarding world as a lot of people seem to now believe?

The dark mark tattoo got to me too. Either JKR forgot about it or the stress is really getting to Draco ... Hermione in PS, "but there's no wood!"



Chemyst - Sep 22, 2007 5:30 pm (#1731 of 1825)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 3:15 am
I think we see a gradual progression of this thought coming upon him. He certainly did not accept it readily. We see his hesitancy in the Malfoy Manner chapter. We see him cautioning Crabbe not to kill Harry in the ROR ( of course, that could also be motivated by fear of the wrath of LV, so…) but my inclination is to believe that Draco really did want Harry alive at that point. Crabbe would have gladly claimed all the glory/blame if Harry had died then.

I guess I would have to say Draco almost, but not quite saw Harry as the last hope. I think he came to recognize it as a possibility, but stopped short of embracing that belief. That would explain the curt nod in the epilogue.

I moved the following section of this post from the beginning to the end being that I have moved nine messages from the Lucius Malfoy thread to the Draco Malfoy thread. Chemyst is very correct in her statements. Thank you for those comments. - Kip

I couldn't find a Draco thread, so I thought I'd post this here as we're on the subject anyway.
The Draco thread exists, but it is currently in the Present Students Group Section Folder as are threads for Luna, Neville & more.

Perhaps a host will be moving these, but until then, PeskyPixie asked:
"do you think Draco saw Harry as the only hope left to the wizarding world"?



Mrs. Sirius - Sep 22, 2007 11:06 pm (#1732 of 1825)
In some ways Draco slowly recognizes that the world he grew up in and everything it represented was wrong. He had his whole value system collapsing around him. He was arrogant but that doesn't make you a murderer.

And again whatever else happens, Draco was loved by his parents and he loves them. His hope is always for them, their safety and their status.

I did wonder at times in the room of requirement if Draco believed what he said that he "wanted" to bring Harry in. For the final battle he didn't abandon -Hogwarts.



Joanna Lupin - Sep 23, 2007 4:03 am (#1733 of 1825)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 24, 2007 3:30 am
Didn't Crabbe say that? I had the impression that Draco only hang back because Crabbe and Goyle did.

This is not just directed at Joanna, but to everyone on this thread in general: I don't remember how to move posts, but I have made the request to the other Hosts that this be done. Whether or not these posts get moved to the Draco thread, can we move this discussion to the Draco thread and resume discussing Lucius here? The more posts that need to be moved, the more work for the Host who has to do it. Thanks! Meg (Edited by megfox* Sep 23, 2007 7:11 pm)

I have closed down this thread until I have the opportunity to move the various posts, which are not about Lucius Malfoy, to the correct threads. Once complete, I will return this thread to normal conditions. - Kip Edited by Kip Carter Sep 23, 2007 11:34 pm

I believe that I have been able to move the needed posts from the Lucius Malfoy thread to this Draco Malfoy thread. This thread is now open for posts to continue the on-going discussion; however stay on Draco. I noticed that Crabbe and Goyle are mentioned in this post and that is why I made this comment.

Again I thank both megfox* and Chemyst for their insight. Thanks to all of you for your patience while I moved and edited. - Kip



NFla Barbara - Sep 24, 2007 5:37 am (#1734 of 1825)
Draco slowly recognizes that the world he grew up in and everything it represented was wrong

This is interesting because I did not get that feeling at all. I thought he realized that following LV would not lead to glory, as he had thought it would. To the extent Draco's sheltered little pure-blood world was something LV also valued, you could say he was rejecting that world...but I didn't get the sense that he thought his entire value system was wrong, only that LV was too extreme.



PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 7:11 am (#1735 of 1825)
I agree with you, Barbara.

Let's not forget that Draco was ready to take Harry to Voldemort when he felt more confident in himself (Battle of Hogwarts).



Joanna Lupin - Sep 24, 2007 7:28 am (#1736 of 1825)
The thing is, I don't think he really, in his heart of hearts, was going to do that. I think Draco would be the happiest if he could hide in the tightest hole and refuse to take sides.



PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 7:30 am (#1737 of 1825)
Interesting ... so he was pressured by Crabbe and Goyle into staying behind rather than fleeing?



Joanna Lupin - Sep 24, 2007 8:03 am (#1738 of 1825)
That's the impression I got anyway. It sure didn't feel like Draco was the leader of the gang anymore.



Solitaire - Sep 24, 2007 11:15 am (#1739 of 1825)
On a separate note, when Draco is later frantically trying to convince another Death Eater "I'm a Death Eater too!" why didn't he just show the guy his tattoo?

I wondered about that, as well. Surely a fellow DE would have known he was a DE ... right? Then again, it must have been known by at least some DEs that the Malfoys were not in LV's good graces ... and that he was keeping them wandless in their own home. Perhaps their loyalty was suspect at this point.

Solitaire



rambkowalczyk - Sep 25, 2007 1:22 pm (#1740 of 1825)
I thought it might be helpful to go over the Battle of Hogwarts to analyze Draco's behavior and emotions.

When Harry is in the ROR, the first person to speak to him is Draco. Harry is reaching for the Diadem when he hears a voice "Hold it Potter." Crabbe and Goyle were standing behind him, shoulder to shoulder, wands pointed right at Harry. Through a small space between their jeering faces he saw Draco Malfoy.

I believe it was Draco who spoke. Harry notes that Vincent's voice is surprisingly soft after Vincent says "We're gonna be rewarded." and when Goyle talks he grunts and has trouble pronouncing words. The other thing worth noting is that Draco is standing behind Crabbe and Goyle suggesting that he may no longer be the leader.

Also the three Slytherins snuck up behind Harry. If they were true Slytherins (any means to their goal) they would have Stunned Harry first and asked questions later. Draco did speak before Vincent could act giving Harry a chance to defend himself.

The second thing Draco says is "That's my wand you're holding, Potter." This suggests that Draco's reason for following Harry in the ROR was not the same as Crabbe's. Maybe all Draco wanted was to get his wand back. A little selfish but consistant with the Draco that we know.

Harry tries to stall by making conversation. He asks them how they got in the ROR. "I virtually lived in the Room of Hidden Things all last year," said Malfoy, his voice brittle. "I know how to get in."

The word brittle suggests a couple of things to me. One is anger, a subtle one because maybe in Draco's mind he tried to save Harry when the Trio was captured by Greyback, and how does Harry pay him back. He steals his wand! THe other is that Draco is emotionally brittle--he is ready to break. He recognizes that Crabbe has come in to his own, and that if he acts against Voldemort's wishes Crabbe might very well hurt or kill him.

Then Crabbe reacts instinctively and tries to bury Ron under a pile of junk. Harry stops the spell and Draco physically prevents Crabbe from recasting it. Draco argues that the diadem will get buried. "What's that matter?" said Crabbe, tugging himself free. "It's Potter the Dark Lord wants, who cares about a die-dum?" Potter came in here to get it," said Malfoy with ill-disguised impatience at the slow-wittedness of his colleagues, "so that must mean--"

Many interpretations here, but I wonder if Draco might have been willing to help Harry if he were alone. In book 6, when Snape pulled Draco from Slughorn's party, Snape said something about acting the part. Was Draco trying to act the part of being Death Eater (trying to stay alive) and trying to help Harry as well?

Crabbe goes ballistic shooting off Unforgivable Curses getting Harry angry that he fights back but he misses Crabbe who knocks Malfoy's second wand out of his hand.

What would Draco have done if he still had his wand? Would he have stopped Crabbe? What he does do is insist that Crabbe not kill Potter. Even in capital letters.

Both Ron and Hermione join in and defend against Goyle and Crabbe. Goyle is disarmed and Stunned. Draco has to hide behind furniture to avoid stray spells. Malfoy jumped out of range of Hermione's second Stunnig Spell... The wandless Malfoy cowered behand a three legged wardrobe as Hermione charged toward them.

Then Crabbe used the fiend fire. Interestingly Draco grabbed the Stunned Goyle and dragged him along; showing that Draco isn't a total coward. He sticks by Goyle when it would have been more prudent to run and leave him behind.

After being rescued he does inquire about Crabbe showing some concern for his friend.

The chapter ends (for Draco) where he is left in the corridor with an unconscious Goyle outside the ROR. This is the same corridor where an explosion goes off and kills Fred, and others go flying through the air.

Presumably the explosion separated Draco from Goyle as we don't see Goyle again. We see Draco about 1/2 hour later. (time for Harry to hide Fred's body, go into Voldemort's mind, and go down one flight of stairs).

I'm Draco Malfoy, I'm Draco, I'm on your side.

The text also says Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater.

Ron and Harry think Draco is trying to betray Harry, but I think Draco was merely trying to save his own life. The key word is pleading, as in Draco is at a disadvantage. Keep in mind Draco doesn't have a wand. He couldn't do anything to the Death Eater. What else could he have said.



Joanna Lupin - Sep 25, 2007 1:59 pm (#1741 of 1825)
I like your summary. It is how I interpreted Draco's behaviour as well. I'm not sure if Draco wanted to help Harry, but I'm quite sure he didn't want to be responsible for Harry's failure/capture.



Soul Search - Sep 25, 2007 3:24 pm (#1742 of 1825)
rambkowalczyk,

Very good analysis and interpretation.

I have thought about Draco, and the Malfoys, and have decided they were trying to save themselves and the family above all else. While they were no longer Voldemort supporters, exactly, they feared him enough not to want to do anything that might incur his wrath.

Draco's hesitation to identify Harry, Hermione, and Ron is out of fear of Voldemort, rather than trying to befriend Harry. I was a bit on the fence with this one, but Draco's subsequent actions favored Draco just being cautious and fearful. He didn't care about Harry at all.

Your analysis of Draco at Hogwarts convinces me he didn't want to "join" Voldemort, but had to go along with Crabbe and/or Goyle to have an excuse if Voldemort won. Draco wanted to stay out of all the fighting.



PeskyPixie - Sep 25, 2007 6:23 pm (#1743 of 1825)
I felt I saw the real Draco when he was facing death by fiendfyre but still didn't let go of Goyle. Also, when he got his breath back the first thing he said was "Crabbe".

I don't believe he's changed his views completely, but he's a far braver man than his father.



Die Zimtzicke - Sep 26, 2007 9:16 am (#1744 of 1825)
Excellent analysis and interpretation. I think you're spot on. I congratulate you!



Solitaire - Sep 28, 2007 6:52 am (#1745 of 1825)
Ron and Harry think Draco is trying to betray Harry, but I think Draco was merely trying to save his own life.

I'd say that is on target. At this point, I am not really sure Draco cares about killing anymore. I think he is just trying to survive and probably get to his parents.

I think Soul Search is correct about the Malfoys, at this point: they were trying to save themselves and the family above all else. I also suspect that Crabbe may have been the first "contemporary" Draco has ever seen die ... perhaps the first person. I can't remember if he was present when Charity Burbage was killed or not. I've often wondered what he felt when he learned of Dobby's death at Bella's hand--I'm assuming he eventually did learn. Dobby may have died a free elf, but he was with the Malfoys for the first twelve years of Draco's life.

I've also wondered if there was ever any kind of reconciliation between Andromeda and Narcissa ... now that Andromeda has lost both her child and her husband. I'd be interested to know if the turn of events in the Wizarding World might have opened up those lines of communication.

Solitaire



PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 6:55 am (#1746 of 1825)
Draco is indeed present at Burbage's death - he falls over when she lands on the table.

I've wondered the same thing about Cissy and Andie (I prefer that to Ted's 'Dromeda').

I doubt Draco would feel one way or the other about Dobby's death.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 28, 2007 12:13 pm (#1747 of 1825)
Somewhere in book 6 when Kreacher is telling Harry that Draco has the nobility of a pureblood, doesn't Dobby contradict him? Can't find the book at the moment. The last time Dobby had any contact with Draco was when Draco was 12 and definately full of himself. I think at that age Draco was imitating his father and being cruel to Dobby. Whether he was always like that or whether he regretted his actions, who knows?



PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 12:30 pm (#1748 of 1825)
Yes, he says, 'Draco Malfor is a bad boy', or something like that. I don't have my book with me at the moment.



PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2007 11:55 am (#1749 of 1825)
According to JKR Draco Malfoy's birthday is in December. In HBP he doesn't attend the extra Apparition practice session in Hogsmeade (in spring 1997) as he is not yet of age (i.e. seventeen years old). If this is true then he is only ten years old (going on eleven in December) when he first arrives at Hogwarts! I can only get around this by assuming that Draco lies about his age to Slughorn in order to achieve free time in the Room of Requirement.



Chemyst - Sep 30, 2007 12:32 pm (#1750 of 1825)
I think an early interview had implied his birthday was around December's winter solstice, but by 2005 he was listed on JKR's website as born on June 5th.


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PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2007 12:34 pm (#1751 of 1825)
Thanks, Chemyst. It makes more sense now.



Die Zimtzicke - Sep 30, 2007 3:24 pm (#1752 of 1825)
Yes, that was another thing that changed over time and caused some confusion. June 5th is the most recent date Jo gave out, and I don't think it's likely to change again.



megfox* - Aug 1, 2008 6:08 am (#1753 of 1825)
This post is "dragged" over from the Lucius thread, as the conversation had wandered to Draco and his behaviors at the Battle of Hogwarts and in the Epilogue.

"I think Harry was Dumbledore's man so thoroughly, that after the final battle he maintained Dumbledore's interest in Draco's welfare, to the point of painting as positive light as possible on how Draco et al helped out the Order's cause. Actually, much of Draco's behavior in the castle, like in the RoR, seemed to me to be he trying to stress reasonableness as against Crabb & Goyle's craziness; and in some ways this could be compared to Snape's alleviating horrors for the students at Hogwarts, once Voldemort had it within his iron hand. Not saying Draco was converted over; but that he was showing many signs of not wanting to be like his cohorts." - tandaradei

I'd like to compare Draco to Regulus, except that Draco was not as brave in his convictions to work against Voldemort - either that, or he was well aware of the consequences of leaving. However, some of his actions during Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows always seemed sort of desperate to me, sort of how I believe that Narcissa felt when she went to Snape. They were going through the motions, in fear of their lives, but there was no conviction behind it. I sort of felt like Draco's bravado in the RoR was more a throwback to his long-standing grudge with Harry rather than trying to do Voldemort's bidding. Remember, they are all Slytherins (the Malfoys - I am making the assumption about Narcissa), and they will do whatever it takes to get what they want. Draco wanted to not fear for his life.

I like the idea of Harry defending the Malfoy's. He is able to see past what they had done in the past and evaluate where they were at that point in time. This sort of reminds me of John Adams being the defense lawyer for the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre.* I like tandaradie's ideas about Harry. I think that is what the nod in the Epilogue is all about. He knows that he owes Harry a lot, and should acknowledge him, but he also is aware of what he contributed to the relationship and how he affected Harry's life, so he can't be friends or maybe even friendly to Harry - just civil. He is acknowledging Harry - what he did for him, maybe what he did for his family, as well as the fact that they have a bad history. He's showing him respect. And Harry responds in kind because, well, he's Harry. And that's why we love him.

*For those of you who are not well-studied in American History - before the American Revolution, British soldiers were stationed in Boston, Massachusetts which was basically under martial law, Boston being the hotbed of a lot of the resistance against the British. A group of boys started throwing snowballs, rocks and sticks at a group of soldiers. The group of boys started to grow into a mob of hundreds of people, and the soldiers became frightened and fired into a crowd of people. Five men were killed, and this was sensationally labeled "the Boston Massacre." John Adams, who was one of the most outspoken of all American Revolutionaries, was a Boston lawyer, and defended them (successfully) in their murder trial. He knew that it was important they be given a fair trial. All but two were totally acquitted, and those two were convicted of the lesser charge of manslaughter.



Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 6:20 pm (#1754 of 1825)
Harry grew tremendously in DH. He still had his "rash" side, but he did begin to start trying to piece together different events and bits of information in his mind. More importantly, he learned to control the Voldy connection and use it to his advantage rather than letting it tear him up inside. Dumbledore would have been so pleased. I wonder if Snape would have?

I think, too, we see tremendous growth in Harry's heart in the way that he is able to empathize even with his enemies. His willingness to declare openly that Snape had not been the murderer they all previously thought he had been shows how his heart has changed. Granted, he did it as much to freak out Voldemort as to exonerate Snape. I also think Harry felt compassion for Draco, who has been used as a pawn by Voldemort--I guess he could relate--and who has now seen one of his best friends (thug though he is) killed. Dumbledore was right ... Harry has really shouldered a pretty heavy load. Sorry ... I know this is Draco's thread.



tandaradei - Aug 1, 2008 7:28 pm (#1755 of 1825)
hehe, actually having been about as anti-Snape as anyone before DH, I'm rather unsure of any of my "announcement theories" about any characters anymore, Draco included. I guess I can still agree with myself, though now, that Draco did show restraint and that Harry maybe stood up for him in later trials.

Regulus, like Snape, in DH stunned me at how I had SO misread Jo's intentions for him.

Have to say I still dislike Lucius, though.

megfox, that's a fascinating bit of American History!



PeskyPixie - Aug 3, 2008 3:36 pm (#1756 of 1825)
"However, some of his actions during Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows always seemed sort of desperate to me, sort of how I believe that Narcissa felt when she went to Snape. They were going through the motions, in fear of their lives, but there was no conviction behind it." -megfox*

I agree.

I'm a bit hesitant to compare Draco to Regulus, or even Snape, because he seems like a bit of a coward who is only motivated by fear of his own life and those of his parents.

Now, of course Draco is still quite young during the events of DH, however, Regulus is practically the same age when he makes the decision to sacrifice himself to weaken Lord Voldemort. Like Draco, Regulus first glimpses Voldemort's true nature (that he does not really discriminate between friend and foe) after a loved one (Kreacher) is hurt by said Dark Lord. However, at that moment Regulus chooses to stand up against the Dark Lord in entirety. He does not attempt to only hide Kreacher then go about his normal Death Eater duties. He realizes that Voldy needs to be destroyed and he must do his part.

Similarly, Snape (who is not much older that Draco and Regulus when he swaps sides) also discovers Voldy's true ruthlessness after his beloved is targetted. He surrenders himself to Dumbledore (the leader of his enemy, even though he suspects that he may be killed during this encounter) and does not waver from that path, no matter how difficult it may seems at times. (seperate thought: when his loved one is in danger he turns to Albus Dumbledore, so he must realize Dumbledore's greatness even when he is immersed in the Dark Arts.)

Draco also has the chance to get Dumbledore's help. For the entire year when he has to kill Dumbledore he could have just as easily surrendered himself to him and begged for help. Even upon the tower Dumbledore offers Draco and his family protection from the Dark Lord, but he doesn't take it.

With Draco, I only see weakness and cowardice, which are traits I do not find in Regulus and Severus once their loved ones have been hurt/targetted by the Dark Lord and their eyes have finally opened to his cruelty.

EDIT: I didn't include the bits about Snape's wishy-washiness at the beginning of his meeting with Dumbledore on the hilltop because this isn't his thread and it would take up too much time.



Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 5:22 pm (#1757 of 1825)
Thoughts on why Draco didn't go to Dumbledore or didn't take his offer on the tower.

In previous books, CoS particularly, Lucius is clearly Dumbledore's enemy. I am not sure Dumbledore feels the same way, but Lucius Malfoy sets out to get Dumbledore dismissed from Hogwarts. He actually succeeds, for a time. In OotP, Lucius is supportive of Ministry efforts to discredit Dumbledore. Draco echos his father's sentiments toward Dumbledore. He feels Dumbledore is the worst headmaster Hogwarts has ever had.

Draco doesn't think Dumbledore can protect him and his family. Likely, he doesn't trust his offer, either.



wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2008 5:28 am (#1758 of 1825)
Even upon the tower Dumbledore offers Draco and his family protection from the Dark Lord, but he doesn't take it. (Pesky)

Prior to DH, I had assumed that DD had some sort of wizarding protection program in place and really could have followed through on his offer to protect Draco. I am no longer sure of that. In fact, based on what we learn in DH, by the time Dumbledore made that offer to Draco on the tower, there was no way he could really have helped Draco. Suppose Draco had said, "yes, help me!" What could DD have done? Sure there were two brooms on the tower, but where would DD have sent Draco, with DD being too weak to go anywhere himself? Snape couldn't very well have helped, as he would later get there after the Death Eaters. And how would DD have arranged to help Draco's parents, particularly Narcissa who was not even in the relative protection of Azkaban?

Of course, earlier in the year DD probably could have done more. When young Snape went to DD for help, LV was definitely going to attack the Potters and Snape didn't believe any promise to spare Lily. With Draco, LV's threat was to kill his parents if Draco didn't kill DD. So to Draco, going to DD for help would only increase the threat to Draco's parents.

I do agree that Draco is pretty cowardly seeming in DH. However, he isn't in the same position as young Snape or Regulas. For Regulas, he saw that LV had endangered Kreacher. Searching for a way to destroy or weaken LV did not put Kreacher under greater threat or danger from LV (except in the danger encountered by going along to the Cave). But Kreacher wouldn't become a greater target of Voldemort's due to Regulas' actions. He might however benefit if Regulas were able to destroy LV. Similarly, Lily was not put under greater threat by Snape going to DD for help. She could only possibly benefit from DD's becoming involved. Draco would assume that ceasing his attempts to kill DD would put his parents at greater risk. Same thing for any overt help he might have been able to offer Harry during DH.



rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2008 10:09 am (#1759 of 1825)
Draco is like a deer caught with headlights. He freezes and doesn't know how to act for he fears every move will cost his and his parents life.

I think though, Draco might have accepted Dumbledore's orders as Harry thinks Draco lowered his wand a little just before the Death Eaters stormed in.

Also in the ROR after Crabbe torched the place, Draco stays with Goyle (who was unconscious at this point) instead of just saving himself. Compare this to book one when Draco flees at the sight of the creature drinking unicorn blood. Draco seems to be changing a little towards the brave side.



PeskyPixie - Aug 4, 2008 1:49 pm (#1760 of 1825)
I find Draco's bravest moment to be when he's in shock and clinging to Goyle, then his first words once they've escaped the Fiendfyre is "Crabbe". That shows that he is capable of feeling for his friends (which, although is not as admirable as feeling for one's enemy, is more than many people are capable of).

However, after this moment, Draco just seems like a scared little boy again, and while it is preferable to following in Auntie Trixie's footsteps, I wouldn't compare him in terms of bravery to either Regulus or Severus.

Still, in the epilogue I get the feeling that even though he can never be friends with Harry, he does acknowledge Harry's goodness and the fact that he owes his very life to him ... at least, I like to believe in all this from that one little nod. (You know you're lousy when people want to read so much into your one half-decent acknowledgement of Harry.)



Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 3:32 pm (#1761 of 1825)
Does Draco ever acknowledge/understand that Snape too saved his life and soul? Does Draco ever find out that DD knew throughout the whole HBP year that Draco was a DE planning to kill him and yet nothing really bad happened to him as a consequence?



rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2008 6:26 pm (#1762 of 1825)
It depends. Was he listening to Harry's speech to Voldemort? Then he would have discovered that Snape was always Dumbledore's man. He also would have discovered that he actually defeated the Elder Wand. But then he had his wand stolen from him.



PeskyPixie - Aug 4, 2008 7:09 pm (#1763 of 1825)
Actually, I wonder how Draco feels about having been the master of the Elder Wand and never having known it?



rambkowalczyk - Aug 5, 2008 11:17 am (#1764 of 1825)
In some ways Draco is always dwarfed by Harry. Draco has never won in Quidditch. And if he dueled with Voldemort in his 7th year he would have won. Voldemort would not have been killed but would have been vapormort again.



rambkowalczyk - Jul 22, 2009 4:59 pm (#1765 of 1825)
from the Snape thread

I honestly do believe Draco was attempting to kill Harry. Just as he figured giving Katy Bell the cursed necklace or Slughorn the poisoned mead would result in Dumbledore's death, so I believe he thought this was a nice, "hands off" way to dispose of Harry.

If Harry had died, Draco could hardly be imprisoned, as it had not been a direct attempt, like an AK or some other Unforgivable. Yes, some people would have hated him ... but he could honestly have said that it was "only a prank," and he hadn't intended Harry to die ... and he'd have gotten away with it! I can't help it. I see it as much more than that. Solitaire

Realizing this will not change your opinion/feeling...

I always saw Draco as a big talker, using his family name to back him up and, as Timrew called him, a Death Nibbler, as in not quite having the right stuff to be an actual Death Eater. There are plenty of instances where his talk is strong and derogatory such as calling Hermione a Mudblood, for implying that the Weasley family is somehow inferior and when the Dark Lord came back he was happy and wanted to be in his service. I even recollected in book 5 when Umbrage was going to use the Cruciatius Curse, the book said Malfoy was watching with a hungry expression on his face.

But when words became deeds, Draco doesn't measure up. Dumbledore doesn't think Draco's heart is in murder. I can imagine Draco talking big, but Draco in his third year didn't have any reason to hate Harry, to one up him and possibly humiliate him yes. I don't think true hatred towards Harry comes until Harry puts Lucius Malfoy in Azkaban. I think this was Draco's main motivation for committing to Voldemort and taking the Death Mark.

I actually think that if Harry were to have died, Draco would have been sick. That is just my opinion, and is subject to change.

In Draco's third year, he had absolutely no concept of the meaning of murder in the sense that he thinks he can do it and not feel guilty afterwards nor feel his soul split. If Draco planned this as a 'murder' it was a childish concept thinking he could get away with it.



Solitaire - Jul 22, 2009 11:06 pm (#1766 of 1825)
In Draco's third year, he had absolutely no concept of the meaning of murder

You are correct. The truth is that Draco had no idea what it really meant to kill a person until the night he faced Dumbledore on the tower. To him, killing had always seemed a simple thing, I think, perhaps because he'd never seen someone murdered--or maybe because he had seen someone killed coldly and it had not bothered the killer. However, the fact that his concept of killing was childish does not diminish what I feel was his intent. He wanted to see Harry faint again, and fall off his broom, and he did not realize that it required an actual Dementor to make this happen. Whichever way you cut it--whether murder was in his brain or not--causing someone to faint and fall off his broom is likely going to result in the victim's death, if there is no magical intervention.

Again, this is just how I see it. I do not require anyone's' agreement. And, yes, no matter what Sirius had to accuse Snape of having done, the Werewolf prank was unconscionable. Even James seems to have realized this.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 25, 2009 4:36 am (#1767 of 1825)
Draco is what I call a paper lion. As much as he hates Harry, the exchange for his father's imprisonment is a broken nose. A real murderer would have taken full advantage in the train scene. Think of what someone like Fenrir would have done. *shudders*



Solitaire - Jul 25, 2009 9:42 am (#1768 of 1825)
I think most DEs have been told to keep their AKs to themselves where Harry is concerned. Otherwise, Bella would have finished him off at Malfoy Mansion. No, Voldemort felt he needed to kill Harry himself. Greyback would have bitten Harry ... but he would not have killed him. Draco did as much as he could do here, IMO. Besides, he had bigger fish to fry, didn't he?



Vulture - Jul 28, 2009 8:18 am (#1769 of 1825)
Another thing to keep in mind, which some seem to discount and some seem to believe, is the fact that even at the end of HBP, Draco is still pretty young. Not only young, but immature as well. In many cases, actions taken at that age which could seem totally evil in a more mature person because they disregard the possibility of collateral damage (ie: poison and neckace attempts going awry and hurting innocents), are really only a product of immaturity. At that age, most are so focused on their goal, that they truly don't even see the possibility of failure. Why else are there so many traffic accidents with teens driving drunk at 90 m.p.h.? They simply don't think it will happen to them. Draco simply did not think he would fail. He's 16. (or 17. Whichever.) I am still holding out hope for him to change, but I do not expect him to be a saint. (Madam Pince - Jun 10, 2007 7:51 am (#1666 ))

Well, I hope you're not saying that either teens in general, or Draco in particular, should be excused for evil actions. Bluntly, teens cannot have it both ways _ they very much want not to be treated as children (a valid instinct, I believe), so they must pay the penalty when they do wrong. Excusing them is not fair _ on them.

But in the case of a teenager driving drunk _ well, OK, it can be argued that he/she wasn't aiming to kill. But Draco was aiming to kill. Thankfully (partly thanks to Dumbledore) he came face to face with the fact that he wasn't actually a killer. In all probability, it was probably the first time he took anything like a genuine look at himself.

I certainly don't think that Draco should be excused because he's 17. It can be argued that, by the end of 6th Year, he was operating under (Voldemort's) duress, but at the beginning, he was revelling in the mission.

Mind you, I probably should have focussed more on your statement that you don't expect Draco to ever be a saint _ I didn't immediately take note of that.

But why did Draco take care of magical creatures instead of say arithmancy. Draco doesn't seem to be the type who would take care of anything. (rambkowalczyk - Jun 21, 2007 8:08 pm (#1671 ))

My guess is that, given his contempt for Hagrid, he thought that it would be an easy top mark in the exams, and he may have felt pressure to demonstrate top marks to Lucius (see what I said above about Lucius's over-expectation).

The first ray of hope (to me) that Draco could possibly be redeemed comes when he is holding a wand on Dumbledore but unable to use it. For the first time, I suspect, he understood what it felt like to be in a desperate situation. He knew that if he killed Dumbledore, he would be forced to be a fugitive in the Wizarding World. If he didn't, he would be a fugitive from LV ... until such time as Voldemort or his goons caught up with him and his family and killed them. He couldn't buy his way out of this situation, and he couldn't bully his way out and expect his dad to mop up the mess. (Solitaire - Jun 21, 2007 10:58 pm (#1673))

In fairness to Draco, I don't think that fear of being a fugitive is the crucial reason why he can't kill Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore was right _ simply, Draco is not a killer, the "feeble attempts" of the cursed necklace and the poison notwithstanding.

I am such a skeptic where Draco is concerned. I dislike him SO much more than I dislike Snape! (Solitaire - Jun 22, 2007 10:14 am (#1675))

I must admit, I don't dislike Draco, or Snape _ apart from anything else, they get some of the most amusing lines in the books. I don't really dislike any of JKR's characters (even Voldemort) _ except Rita Skeeter and Umbridge. (JKR seems able to provoke the strongest reactions (at least in me) with some of her women characters.)

Exactly how Voldemort was communicating with Draco is a fair question though. Do the DEs have a form of communication other than the dark mark's "come here now" signal, or was there never a need for Draco to be contacted by the Dark Lord. (Hagsquid [/b]- Jul 4, 2007 7:11 pm (#1691))

Maybe Voldemort never communicated directly with Draco during the school year. He assigned him the mission before 6th Year began, and may simply have made a point of threatening Lucius and Narcissa once , very strongly, in front of Draco, during either the Christmas or Easter holidays. After that, all Voldemort would have to do is threaten Lucius and Narcissa every other day that Draco would be killed _ knowing that, whatever they said or didn't say in their Owl Posts to Draco, the boy would pick up on the fear. If there's one thing Voldemort understands, it's how to create fear.

Draco, in his own way, actually tries to protect the Trio when they are brought to Malfoy Manor, even Hermione. (zelmia [/b]- Aug 4, 2007 4:00 pm (#1705))

Well, I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that "Yeah, it could be" (i.e. could be Ron) qualifies as protection. I think his attitude was one of simply not wanting to get involved, and not wanting to take any risks. If he had any inclination to really offer protection, he would surely have said something to Harry and Ron when Bellatrix sent him to fetch Griphook.

He stood by while Hermione was tortured _ OK, so his defenders will say he could hardly take on Bellatrix, but he was sent to fetch Griphook straight afterwards, and could have released Harry and Ron then. When Harry and Ron burst in to rescue Hermione, and Disarmed Bellatrix, Draco fought them along with Narcissa and Greyback.

I gathered from JKR's Chat comments that Lucius was not put back in Azkaban. That's pretty odd to me. Still, she seems to have been indicating that Lucius followed Voldemort more out of fear than anything which makes sense to me. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 4, 2007 5:34 pm (#1707))

Once again, JKR's non-book comments drive me up the wall. I can buy the part about not putting Lucius back in Azkaban _ no doubt, Harry and all were inclined to show mercy in the general post-Voldemort euphoria. But in my opinion, it's nonsense for JKR to say that "Lucius followed Voldemort more out of fear than anything" after Lord V's return.

If that's the case, how does JKR explain Chamber Of Secrets, where Lucius risks imprisonment and loss of social status (which for Lucius, is a big, big deal) because he insists on fooling about with Dark objects and keeping souvenirs of Voldemort's first reign, when he and most of the wizard world believe Voldemort to be finished (see "Spinner's End" in Book 6) ? How does she explain Lucius's antics as a Death Eater during the World Cup in Book 4, before he or any Death Eaters realised that their master was about to return ? This guy loved being a Death Eater _ as long as things were going well.

I could never really see the advantages for Lucius -- already wealthy and powerful -- to go back and start supporting the returned Voldemort. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 4, 2007 5:34 pm (#1707))

Why does any rich and powerful man go on trying to get more and more, far more than he could ever use ? Pride _ deadliest of the seven.

Lucius was a Slytherin who believed in the whole pure-blood ideology. Voldemort's imminent victory must have seemed to guarantee him a high position in the new order. Things began to go wrong for him when he, Bellatrix, et al, failed to get the prophecy in Book 5, and he never foresaw that the loss of the (Chamber Of Secrets) diary would provoke such intense anger from Voldemort. (See Dumbledore's comments on this in Book 6.)

Draco's attitude to Voldemort's fortunes, and what it would mean for his own future, was similar to his father's _ except that Draco found that he couldn't be a killer, whereas I suspect that Lucius has killed.

(Continued in next post; sorry for length ...)



Vulture - Jul 28, 2009 8:23 am (#1770 of 1825)
(... continued from last post)

Hopefully, however, he took some serious time to reflect on and learn from the tragedies he witnessed--some of which he helped to bring about--enough to raise little Skorpius with a better world view. (Solitaire [/b]- Aug 8, 2007 10:25 pm (#1718 ))

It occurs to me that the Malfoys wouldn't be popular with other Slytherin families after the Second Voldemort War, (a) because their stock had fallen with their own side during the war itself, and (b) because they once again managed to slither out of defeat without going to prison or suffering _ unlike other, more reliable, servants of Voldemort.

This would, of course, impact on little Scorpius if he ended up in Slytherin. If he realised this before the Sorting, I wonder if there was any chance he might choose a different House ? (Mind you, most people didn't know you could choose.)

During the Battle of Hogwarts he could have easily left the school with the other fleeing students. Instead, he chose to stay behind to capture Harry and take him to Voldemort with hopes of being 'rewarded'. I assume the 'reward' is to be in Voldemort's good books once again?

So, did he truly believe that HRH were the only hope for the world and that Voldemort's establishment was one of evil and tyranny? What would make him try to hand Harry over to Voldemort if his actions at Malfoy Manor were an attempt to shield Harry from death? (PeskyPixie [/b]- Sep 22, 2007 12:00 pm (#1728 ))

I had forgotten about his Room Of Requirement actions. Of course, his Malfoy Manor behaviour seems, at first sight, different _ though as I've shown above, we shouldn't make too much of it.

I believe the answer is _ he's a coward, but a coward who cares about his parents. It is cowardice which explains why he won't kill Dumbledore, and later Our Trio, himself, but also explains why he won't stop anyone else doing it. By the time of the Battle Of Hogwarts, the Malfoys' stock was pretty low among Death Eaters, and as Narcissa had lent Draco her wand, neither she nor Lucius were any use to Voldemort. We all know how Voldemort treats those whom he can't use.

Draco knew this, and when Hogwarts started to go into a state of siege, with McGonagall giving orders and Snape nowhere in sight, Draco would probably have realised more quickly than others just what was about to happen. Capturing Harry must have seemed like the solution to his family's problems. Of course, once he got the no-longer-so-respectful Crabbe and Goyle involved, his options for second thoughts decreased, if not disappeared.

I guess I would have to say Draco almost, but not quite saw Harry as the last hope. I think he came to recognize it as a possibility, but stopped short of embracing that belief. That would explain the curt nod in the epilogue. (Chemyst [/b]- Sep 22, 2007 5:30 pm (#1731 of 1768))

I don't really believe Draco thinks like that. To me, the curt nod is simply about the fact that the Trio saved his life _ twice. After all, he nods to them all, not just Harry.

On a separate note, when Draco is later frantically trying to convince another Death Eater "I'm a Death Eater too!" why didn't he just show the guy his tattoo? (zelmia [/b]- Sep 22, 2007 12:56 pm (#1729 ))

It just clicked with me after reading a few posts discussing this _ if he showed the tattoo, he would immediately be a target for anti-Voldemort fighters, and the Death Eater might try to dragoon him into helping. On the other hand, if the Death Eater (who was masked) was someone who didn't know Draco, or at least, didn't know he was a Death Eater , then the Malfoy name might be enough to make him treat Draco as a Slytherin kid, but not as someone required to fight.

My guess is, the masked Death Eater didn't know Draco, and was about to kill him because he assumed all Slytherin kids had left the building.

The text also says "Draco was on the upper landing, pleading with another masked Death Eater".

Ron and Harry think Draco is trying to betray Harry, but I think Draco was merely trying to save his own life. The key word is "pleading", as in Draco is at a disadvantage. Keep in mind Draco doesn't have a wand. He couldn't do anything to the Death Eater. What else could he have said. (rambkowalczyk [/b]- Sep 25, 2007 1:22 pm (#1740))

I don't think they think he's trying to betray Harry _ after all, Harry and the others are invisible at that moment. Ron is just annoyed to see him still declaring allegiance to Voldemort's side, and doesn't think about the subtleties such as Draco having no wand. It's a spur-of-the-moment incident in the heat of battle, and they're in a hurry elsewhere.

I have thought about Draco, and the Malfoys, and have decided they were trying to save themselves and the family above all else. While they were no longer Voldemort supporters, exactly, they feared him enough not to want to do anything that might incur his wrath. (Soul Search [/b]- Sep 25, 2007 3:24 pm (#1742))

I think that this is true about Narcissa and Draco. Narcissa always seems to have had doubts _ she stopped Lucius from sending Draco to Durmstrang, and instead sent him to Hogwarts, despite Dumbledore being in charge of it. But Lucius was still hoping for everything to be "forgiven" by Voldemort, and for his old power and prestige to be restored, as late as the Malfoy Manor chapter. He was still the same Lucius who, in Book 2, was prepared to send an 11-year-old girl to a hideous death. He, like Draco and Narcissa, stood by while Hermione was tortured, and would have stood by while Greyback "disposed" of her.

I've also wondered if there was ever any kind of reconciliation between Andromeda and Narcissa ... now that Andromeda has lost both her child and her husband. (Solitaire [/b]- Sep 28, 2007 6:52 am (#1745))

Narcissa and _ let's see ... the widow of a Muggle, whose daughter married, and had a child with, a werewolf who fought for the Order.

I think Narcissa would quote from James Joyce's "Portrait Of The Artist" and say: "I said that I had lost the faith, not that I had lost self-respect" !!

Prior to DH, I had assumed that DD had some sort of wizarding protection program in place and really could have followed through on his offer to protect Draco. I am no longer sure of that. In fact, based on what we learn in DH, by the time Dumbledore made that offer to Draco on the tower, there was no way he could really have helped Draco. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 4, 2008 5:28 am (#1758 ))

I disagree. The way I read that Tower scene at the time (and I haven't changed since), was that it was an open question as to whether they would soon be joined by Order members or Death Eaters. (Remember, Dumbledore wasn't aware of the invisible barrier downstairs, which only let Death Eaters through.)

If Draco had accepted _ and if he had blooming well hurried up about it _ Dumbledore could have used Draco's wand to retrieve his own. Even if there wasn't time for that, and even in his weakened condition, Dumbledore could probably have blocked access to the Death Eaters using Draco’s wand. He could have unfrozen Harry, and Harry could have helped. They all could have Apparated to a safer part of the grounds, sent a Patronus-message to Snape and other Order members to come and help in the fight, and done any amount of things.

The big problem for Dumbledore, before that night, was that he was running out of time. He wanted to get the locket business over, and being killed by Snape. As I recall, he didn’t include Moody among the Order guards, and that was a mistake. He got snotty with Harry for raising objections, but Harry was correct up to a point: Draco was planning his operation for that night. Dumbledore said that there was protection in place, but it wasn’t enough.



Vulture - Jul 28, 2009 8:25 am (#1771 of 1825)
(... continued from last post)

Draco would assume that ceasing his attempts to kill DD would put his parents at greater risk. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 4, 2008 5:28 am (#1758))

Not if the Order took them under protection. And frankly, with Voldemort’s record, what were the chances that he wouldn’t just kill them for laughs, anyway ? Voldemort might not be too comfortable having someone around who had succeeded in killing Dumbledore after he (Voldemort) had spectacularly failed to do so in Book 5.

Besides, all this is irrelevant. Don't we all agree that Dumbledore was right _ that Draco was not a killer ? Harry believed that too. So Draco simply wasn't going to kill Dumbledore. In that case, what choice did he have ?

He knew about Snape's Vow, but he had kept Snape in the dark about his plan for that night, so couldn't expect that Snape would turn up and get him off the hook. Therefore, as far as Draco knew, if he didn't accept Dumbledore's offer, his only option was to hope that one of his Death Eater companions would kill Dumbledore for him (and bring down Lord V's wrath on the Malfoys).



rambkowalczyk - Jul 29, 2009 12:35 pm (#1772 of 1825)
Regarding comments that Draco might be changing his mind when the trio are brought to Malfoy manor.

but I'm not sure that "Yeah, it could be" (i.e. could be Ron) qualifies as protection. I think his attitude was one of simply not wanting to get involved, and not wanting to take any risks. He stood by while Hermione was tortured _ OK, so his defenders will say he could hardly take on Bellatrix, but he was sent to fetch Griphook straight afterwards, and could have released Harry and Ron then. When Harry and Ron burst in to rescue Hermione, and Disarmed Bellatrix, Draco fought them along with Narcissa and Greyback. ... ...I believe the answer is _ he's a coward, but a coward who cares about his parents. It is cowardice which explains why he won't kill Dumbledore, and later Our Trio, himself, but also explains why he won't stop anyone else doing it. Vulture

Generally agree. I don't think that Draco is used to doing anything on his own and he doesn't really have any experience standing up to anyone alone. In the past when he bullies Harry, Ron, or Hermione it was done knowing that his father would back him up. For him to have helped Harry when the trio were brought to the manor would have been a type of betrayal to his parents. I think Draco's goal was to protect his parents and he couldn't reconcile himself to doing anything that would possible hurt them. On the other hand he could have eagerly turned in Hermione and Ron just to please his parents but he didn't.

I am not sure, however, what Draco's motives were when he confronted Harry in the ROR. He could have wanted to capture Harry for Voldemort and earn the brownie points from Voldemort, but if this were the case why didn't he quickly identify Ron and Hermione at the manor? It is possible that Crabbe and Goyle were now coming into their own, and it may not have been Malfoy's idea to follow them into the ROR. Also there was another reason that Draco would have wanted to follow Harry. He wanted his wand back.

But in my opinion, it's nonsense for JKR to say that "Lucius followed Voldemort more out of fear than anything" after Lord V's return.

If that's the case, how does JKR explain Chamber Of Secrets, where Lucius risks imprisonment and loss of social status (which for Lucius, is a big, big deal) because he insists on fooling about with Dark objects and keeping souvenirs of Voldemort's first reign, when he and most of the wizard world believe Voldemort to be finished (see "Spinner's End" in Book 6) ? How does she explain Lucius's antics as a Death Eater during the World Cup in Book 4, before he or any Death Eaters realized that their master was about to return ? This guy loved being a Death Eater _ as long as things were going well. Vulture

Lucius may be a Death Eater at heart but I don't think it means that he wants to be Voldemort's servant anymore. Voldemort's return means that he is no longer the top dog. I'm sure Voldemort knew this and was harsh on Lucius when he was unsuccessful.



Solitaire - Jul 29, 2009 1:02 pm (#1773 of 1825)
I think the Malfoys have realized for the first time what it means to have Voldemort fully in control ... and the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. Voldemort has commandeered their home for his headquarters, and they are prisoners in their own home.

I think even Lucius has realized how cheaply Voldemort holds him, and he is grasping at straws to try and reinstate himself in Voldy's good graces. It isn't working, however. Why did Voldy have Narcissa check out Harry instead of doing it himself or asking Bella? I think he considered the Malfoys as dispensable (or disposable) ... and Narcissa realized this. She could have thrown Harry under the bus after he answered her question about Draco, but she didn't. Why not? Did it finally sink in that Harry had survived yet another of Voldemort's AKs?

As for Draco, I'm not sure about him. Back at the Manor, it certainly seemed as though he did not want to see the Trio defeated. Then he acted kind of weird at Hogwarts, both in the RoR and later, telling a DE that he was "one of them," for which Ron punched him from under the Invisibility Cloak. I think his dealings with Voldemort in HBP and probably during the summer at Malfoy Manor opened Draco's eyes in the same way his parents' eyes had been opened. I think the Malfoys as a group finally realized how ephemeral Voldemort's good graces were.



Vulture - Jul 30, 2009 10:43 am (#1774 of 1825)
She could have thrown Harry under the bus after he answered her question about Draco, but she didn't. Why not? Did it finally sink in that Harry had survived yet another of Voldemort's AKs? (Solitaire [/b]- Jul 29, 2009 1:02 pm (#1773))

In fact, even before she knows he's still alive, we get that phrase about "hands, softer than he (Harry) was expecting" . I speculated that that was meant as a guide to how Narcissa now felt.



haymoni - Jul 30, 2009 5:30 pm (#1775 of 1825)
I had figured that Harry thought a man would be checking him out, not a woman.

Narcissa is a smart woman and a true Slytherin. She played her cards right until the very end.

Draco's actions at the Manor are confusing - especially later when he goes to the RoR to thwart Harry. You'd think that if he was willing to protect the Trio at the Manor, he would have let Harry go and get what he needed.

Although, as I'm typing this, I wonder - did he really want to save the Trio or was he just tired of Crucioing people all day?



Soul Search - Jul 30, 2009 8:57 pm (#1776 of 1825)
I thought Draco knew the captives were the trio, but did not want to confirm it to Grayback and, later, Bellatrix. Turning Harry Potter in to Voldemort would have put his family back in Voldemort's good graces, but only if Lucius could be the one to touch his dark mark.



Solitaire - Jul 30, 2009 9:54 pm (#1777 of 1825)
Haymoni, I've always thought that maybe, by this point, things had ceased to be a game for Draco. Everything was painfully real. Harry saw how Draco was being forced to Crucio! people in his own home, and he actually felt sorry for Draco.

As I've said, I think that a steady diet of Voldemort was becoming more than the Malfoys bargained for. I think they were all tired of him by this time. I think Lucius would have turned in the kids, but by this point it would be more in the hope of getting free of Voldy than anything else. I think he is over the belief that he's going to be important to Voldy.



Vulture - Jul 31, 2009 11:36 am (#1778 of 1825)
I thought Draco knew the captives were the trio, but did not want to confirm it to Grayback and, later, Bellatrix. Turning Harry Potter in to Voldemort would have put his family back in Voldemort's good graces, but only if Lucius could be the one to touch his dark mark. (Soul Search [/b]- Jul 30, 2009 8:57 pm (#1776))

Whatever about other considerations, Draco has a deep revulsion towards Greyback. On the Tower, Dumbledore reproached Draco about having invited Greyback and putting his (Draco's) friends in danger _ Draco immediately denied it. Now, he had nothing to gain, on a selfish level, from doing so, and some might say that it would harm him to be trying to improve his image in Dumbledore's eyes, in front of the Death Eaters.



Soul Search - Jul 31, 2009 1:13 pm (#1779 of 1825)
"... Draco has a deep revulsion towards Greyback." (Vulture)

I agree, and I agree Draco's revulsion for Greyback had to be his initial motivation for not revealing Harry to him. I do note that Draco continued the idea of capturing Harry and turning him over to Voldemort at Hogwarts.



PeskyPixie - Aug 2, 2009 1:30 pm (#1780 of 1825)
Draco doesn't have the stomach for participation in actual Death Eater activities.

I re-read Malfoy Manor today and have come to the conclusion that Draco's main concern (and the reason he doesn't confirm that HRH are indeed in his living room) is the Dark Lord's fury (against himself and his parents) if the trio ends up not being HRH (even though he really knows that it is). Coward.



wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2009 2:46 pm (#1781 of 1825)
Draco's actions at the Manor are confusing - especially later when he goes to the RoR to thwart Harry. You'd think that if he was willing to protect the Trio at the Manor, he would have let Harry go and get what he needed. (haymoni)

Draco seems very convoluted at this point. At the Manor, he doesn't seem to want to be the direct cause of any of the Trio getting killed, but maybe he just doesn't want it to happen in front of him, or as PeskyPixie suggests, maybe he's just scared of committing to any response to LV since he could be found to be wrong. Hard to say. I assume he still intensely disliked the Trio, even if he also hated his family being controlled by LV, which might explain some of his contradictory actions.

On an earlier note (and I realize the discussion is far past this), regarding Draco and his friend's impersonation of Dementors in POA, neither Draco nor his friends actually had anything of a Dementor's "power" other than the black cloaks, meaning that the best they could hope for would be to startle Harry and the other players. As soon as Harry, or any other players for that matter, realized they weren't getting any of the creepy feelings dementors always brought, the "startle" factor would be gone. I'd think the best Draco could hope for would be no more upsetting to Harry than a stray bludger or another player trying to intentionally distract him.

Draco's 6th year efforts to kill DD are another story, in my opinion. Perhaps his heart wasn't really in it, and I suppose it would be possible that as a teenager he didn't even think about the ineffectual attempts to get to DD -- the necklace and the poison -- could actually end up harming others, but I have to see Draco's actions, as regards his age and understanding of what could harm others, in a similar way as I see Sirius' actions in the Prank. In other words, even if Draco didn't think about others being harmed other than DD, a 16 year old should realize that, just as Sirius should have realized the extreme danger of what he was doing, or the Marauders understood the extreme danger of letting loose a werewolf especially knowing that there were near misses.



rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2009 7:12 am (#1782 of 1825)
Agreed, Draco and Sirius should be judged by the same standards.



Julia H. - Aug 6, 2009 10:38 am (#1783 of 1825)
By the time of the Malfoy Manor scene, Draco has long been disillusioned by Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and, yes, he has had enough of crucio-ing people. Already in the first chapter of DH, he hardly dares to look up at Charity. I don't think he is sorry about her, but that he is terrified by what can happen to people, and he has realized that he and his family are not immune to a similar fate.

I also think that Draco is painfully disillusioned with his own father. He used to see Lucius as a very powerful person, who could get nearly anything that he wanted, and I guess that for quite a while he thought that his father had been a truly esteemed and influential advisor of the Dark Lord, a distinguished personality among DE's - a supposedly magnificent organization of the best of wizards. Now it seems none of it is true: His father is far from being respected or liked by Voldemort, he suffers various humiliations without daring to protest, and they should be happy if they are not given to Nagini, and Lucius does not ever seem to rebel against this treatment. Of course, he would like to change the situation, but only in the most servile way. No pride whatsoever.

The DE organization is nothing really grand, only a bunch of murderers and torturers; and Draco has realized that he is not good at either of these activities.

Still, being disillusioned with one side does not automatically mean that you are ready to join the other side, or that you are ready to disobey the orders that you are given. That would take a lot of courage in the first place and also the ability to identify with the goals of the other side, which does not directly come from the disillusionment. So Draco in the Malfoy Manor scene is trying to be passive as long as he can - but he is far from thinking of setting the Trio free (I don't think such possibility occurs to him), and when he has to take sides (when they start fighting), he is still with his family - he is not prepared to swim against the current.



Soul Search - Aug 6, 2009 12:54 pm (#1784 of 1825)
Very good post, Julia H. I particularly liked your assessment of Lucius and Draco's revised opinion of him in this paragraph:

"I also think that Draco is painfully disillusioned with his own father. ..."



Vulture - Oct 5, 2009 5:32 pm (#1785 of 1825)
On the Tower in Book 6, Dumbledore earnestly (to the point of foolhardy disregard for his own situation, some might say) urged Draco to come over to the right side. I think most of us would agree that, in saying this, Dumbledore was not motivated by saving himself, but by Draco's moral welfare (and by concealing Harry's presence).

So, in the light of Book 7, I think it's open to us to see Draco as being at a certain (early) point on the same road which Snape took _ and which he needed all Dumbledore's help to take.

The difference, of course, is that Draco did not, in fact, come to the point of making the crucial, pivotal, moral choices made by Snape. (The nearest he comes to choosing the good side is his lowering of his wand on the Tower before the Death Eaters arrive.)

But in fairness, by Book 7, there was no-one around to point out the choices to Draco, as Dumbledore had to Snape.



wynnleaf - Oct 5, 2009 7:59 pm (#1786 of 1825)
Draco has some different factors that make his choices less clean cut. Snape had one person who he loved greatly whose life depended on the choices he made. That was Lily, and to attempt to protect her, he had to choose to betray Voldemort. But in attempting to make choices that would protect the people he loved, Draco's options were far less clear. Certainly, on the tower DD tried to offer some hope that Draco's parents could be protected if Draco made the good choice to turn to the good side. Still, that wasn't what I'd call a clear set of options for Draco. Even now, I find it hard to see how DD at that moment, up on the tower with DEs down in Hogwarts and DD weakened from the cave potion and possibly close to dying from the ring curse, could have done anything truly effective toward protecting Draco's parents. It's easy to understand that Draco wouldn't be particularly convinced that DD could protect them either, even though Draco couldn't bring himself to kill DD.

Later, in DH, Draco does a few things that show us he no longer wants to support LV, and possibly that he hopes LV will even be defeated, but it's difficult for him to make any overt move to betray LV when he knows that LV can kill his parents.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think having the right person around to point out the choices would have so much affected Draco, unless that person could also show him choices that wouldn't result in the murder of one or both of his parents.



Orion - Oct 6, 2009 7:35 am (#1787 of 1825)
I still don't understand the plot of HBP and I never will. If DD, who knew quite well that Draco had been after his hide all year, had really wanted to put him on the right track wouldn't it have been wiser to do so at an earlier stage instead of sitting there twiddling a wand and saying "now I'll watch your funny little attempts to see where this is aiming at"? Draco didn't believe in DD because he had never had any close contact with him and the offer of help came at a point where it was too late to do anything.



PeskyPixie - Oct 6, 2009 8:53 am (#1788 of 1825)
The reasoning presented in the books is that Dumbledore doesn't want Lord Voldemort to read Draco's mind (I know, it's a silly Muggle term), and see Dumbledore assisting him ... or something like that.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2009 8:57 am (#1789 of 1825)
I thought he did not approach Draco with a "deal" because he assumed Voldemort was performing Legilimency regularly on Draco. Had Draco accepted, Dumbledore would have had to pull Draco from school in that instant, contact Narcissa instantly and place them in protective care with the Order. It seems easy enough but it definitely would have stirred up the pot before Dumbledore had received Slughorn's proper Memory and found out for sure what he needed to know about Voldemort's secret. JM2K

[cross-posted with Pesky]



Solitaire - Oct 6, 2009 7:49 pm (#1790 of 1825)
Shadow and Pesky bring up an excellent point about the Legilimency. With Draco using the RoR and the vanishing cabinets, we have no idea how often he was "off campus." Did we learn whether the other cabinet was still at B&B or had it been moved? (I'm sorry ... I can't remember.) If it had been moved to Malfoy Manor at some point during the year--which would have been more logical than parading DEs through B&B--then Draco could have been in daily face-to-face contact with Voldy, as he seemed to be "based" at Malfoy Manor. I agree that DD may have thought it would be too risky.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2009 9:44 pm (#1791 of 1825)
I believe the Cabinet remained at B&B the entire time. I don't think Voldemort was based at the Malfoys until after Lucius was out of Azkaban, which was DH. During HBP I don't imagine he would be there with Narcissa, IMO. But certainly Voldemort would use his skill to check up on Draco's progress, as this was a high priority for Vold to get rid of Dumbledore and take control of the school. But I do feel that Dumbledore's priority was Slughorn's Memory and traveling about trying to figure out the Horcruxes -- it was more important than Draco's soul and even life.



Julia H. - Oct 6, 2009 10:12 pm (#1792 of 1825)
OK, so how did Voldemort check up on Draco's progress? When you say "his skill", do you mean Legilimency? That would indicate that Draco had to visit Voldy now and then because time and space matter in magic - and Snape practically says (in OotP) that Voldemort cannot read the minds of those who are at Hogwarts from a distance, except when the person in question has a magical scar. Or was it perhaps Draco's Dark Mark that made it possible for Voldemort to check up on him despite the protective spells of Hogwarts?



wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2009 4:17 am (#1793 of 1825)
Presumably, Draco couldn't have used the vanishing cabinets to go visit LV until after the cabinets were completely repaired. And that doesn't appear to have occurred at least even as far into the year as the Sectumsempra incident, since Draco was at that point getting pretty desperate about being able to complete his mission.

Of course, students usually go home at Christmas, so Draco could be expected to see LV at that time. And many kids went home over Easter (I think that's mentioned in another book), so there would be opportunities for Draco to report to LV even into the Spring.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2009 7:57 am (#1794 of 1825)
Yes, it seems the Cabinet was fixed on the night Harry and Dumbledore went to the Cave, the night of the murder, when Trelawney heard the 'whooping' in the RoR.

I think not only would Voldemort be scrutinizing Draco during holidays but he'd be scrutinizing Narcissa. I can imagine him keeping an eye on her, and if Dumbledore had attempted to protect Draco in the middle of the year, surely his mother would have known about it -- which IMO means 1)if they did not act immediately, Voldemort would pick up on it when he saw either Narcissa or Draco and, 2)if they did act immediately, Draco and Narcissa would simply disappear leaving Voldemort with the impression that something was up -- he might then do something rash. So, in response to discussing the confusion of HBP's plot, I don't find it unrealistic at all for Dumbledore to simply have Severus do what he could to prevent Draco hurting himself or other students, and have him kill DD rather than Draco.



Solitaire - Oct 8, 2009 6:50 am (#1795 of 1825)
perhaps Draco's Dark Mark that made it possible for Voldemort to check up on him despite the protective spells of Hogwarts?

Is that likely, Julia? If the Dark Mark provided Voldemort that access, then wouldn't Snape have been at risk 24/7? He would never have been able to confer with DD over anything.

Without the cabinets, I should think Christmas and Easter seem the likeliest times for him to be in contact with Voldy. As to Narcissa, Voldy probably had Bella keeping her "jailed."

Sometimes I think that DD half expected DEs to enter Hogwarts. Remember his comment to Snape about not being left to the mercy of Greyback or Bella, "who likes to "play with her food before she eats it"? It sounds to me as if he is anticipating a run-in with her, at least. Where else might he have anticipated that happening?



Julia H. - Oct 8, 2009 7:43 am (#1796 of 1825)
I know, Solitaire... It was just an idea. Snape is a superb Occlumens, so his mind may be able to resist "dark-mark-control" (if such control exists), while Draco's may not. I actually wonder if the only purpose of the Dark Mark is to send certain messages... Anyway, so you seem to agree that Draco is in contact with Voldemort during the holidays...

BTW, I think another reason why Dumbledore cannot reveal that he knows what Draco is up to is that this information would immediately point to Snape as the most likely source (unless Draco confesses everything on his own).

DD definitely seems to expect that he will have to deal with Bella and Co. at some point - in a moment when he is not strong enough to defend himself.



wynnleaf - Oct 8, 2009 9:37 am (#1797 of 1825)
BTW, I think another reason why Dumbledore cannot reveal that he knows what Draco is up to is that this information would immediately point to Snape as the most likely source (unless Draco confesses everything on his own). (Julia)

I've considered that as well. But Harry quite seriously suspects Draco without any input from Snape at all. And further, Draco may realizes Harry suspects him of something. And Dumbledore knows Harry suspects Draco. So DD approaching Draco wouldn't necessarily have pointed a finger at Snape.



Solitaire - Oct 8, 2009 7:45 pm (#1798 of 1825)
Julia, I did think you were just tossing out the idea of Legilimency via the Dark Mark ... so I wanted to pursue it, as it certainly makes sense in some situations. It would certainly be the perfect way to keep tabs on everyone.

What I meant about Snape, however, is that there must be times when his mind is incredibly "busy" with the load he must bear, and it must be particularly active when he and DD are planning and talking. It would seem next to impossible that he could keep his mind closed all of the time, which would make him vulnerable to random incursions by Voldy.



Honour - Oct 12, 2009 3:57 am (#1799 of 1825)
Thowing out ideas as well... I thought Sev had made some kind of comment to Draco about "aunt Bella teaching him occlumens?" I am on a re-read and am still reading 'Goblet', so sorry I can not confirm, going back to my reading ... Smile



Orion - Oct 12, 2009 7:03 am (#1800 of 1825)
Bella knew what she was doing. Draco would, however, have had no chance against Voldie. Personally I think that JKR would have written important things like Legilimency via the Dark Mark down on the page. It would have been most advisable for DD to "turn Draco round" - do you say so in English? To turn him into a double agent. As long as he would have been safely shut into Hogwarts no Legilimency would have touched him, him having no Scar or any such things. If DD had known about the Cabinet he could have bewitched it. (To pulverize any DE to turn up in it harharhar.)

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Julia H. - Oct 12, 2009 7:51 am (#1801 of 1825)
You see, the reason why I mentioned the idea that Voldemort might have had access to Draco's mind while Draco was at Hogwarts is precisely that I think Voldemort reading Draco's mind during the school breaks only gave Dumbledore plenty of time to act. As soon as he had managed to convince Draco, Draco would never have had to go home for a school break. The DE's could have been lured into the castle (LOL, Orion!) and captured before Voldemort had time to do any Legilimency on Draco. Perhaps the Order would have had to kidnap Narcissa to protect her. (Lucius would have been relatively safe in Azkaban, and he may have already been much less enthusiastic about Voldemort, knowing that his Lord was taking revenge on his son.)

I don't know though how that would have affected Snape. He had to protect Draco as Draco was attempting to fulfill Voldemort's wish and do Draco's job when Draco failed, but what if Draco had given up the attempt? Would that have counted as failure? That's an important question, because in that case, Snape would have either died or had to kill Dumbledore as soon as Draco changed his mind, and Dumbledore might have found it a bit too early either way. (They were protecting Draco's life and soul and at a great cost to Snape, but Dumbledore would hardly have sacrificed/risked the success of his whole fight just to save Draco and his parents sooner or in a "better" way - which would not have been effective in the long run if Voldemort had not been defeated.)



Soul Search - Oct 12, 2009 1:12 pm (#1802 of 1825)
As I review the HBP storyline it seems JKR boxed everything in so the Tower scene was the inevitable and only result.

Dumbledore had to be very careful. Lucius had well filled Draco with mistrust of Dumbledore, so any attempt to sway him would be met with suspicion. Any attempt to save Draco would result in Snape's death because of the unbreakable vow.

Any hint to Draco that Snape was Dumbledore's man would be disasterous to Snape and Dumbledore's plan.

Voldemort was, likely, occupying Malfoy Manor, so getting to Narcissa would be difficult, in spite of Dumbleodre's assertions. Azkaban was taken over by Voldemort, so Lucius wasn't all that safe there, either.

The Tower scene was the only way the storyline could conclude. Draco "failed" to kill Dumbledore, and then Snape killed Dumbledore soon after.



wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2009 4:16 pm (#1803 of 1825)
That's an important question, because in that case, Snape would have either died or had to kill Dumbledore as soon as Draco changed his mind, and Dumbledore might have found it a bit too early either way. (Julia)

As I read it, the possible "failure" of Draco, too soon in the game, was more than anything what kept DD from trying to change Draco's mind, as well as what kept DD from doing more to absolutely prevent Draco from endangering others, even after Ron and Katie Bell almost died.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 12, 2009 4:44 pm (#1804 of 1825)
I still think that the ultimate deciding factor was the Horcruxes. Had Dumbledore been able to bring Harry to the Cave earlier in the year -- which seems to have taken some research and time after acquiring the true Slughorn memory -- then he would have had Severus kill him sooner. Once Dumbledore was killed by Severus ( but seemingly of natural causes, complications from the hand wound) then Draco would be off the hook with Vold and Severus would be off the hook with the Vow. Nothing could move forward with witness protection with Draco, or with Severus killing Dumbledore, until DD had enough info on Horcruxes for himself to impart to Harry. JM2K



mona amon - Oct 13, 2009 2:23 am (#1805 of 1825)
I appreciate the difficulty of your position, said Dumbledore. Why else do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I knew you would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realised that I suspected you (…) I did not dare to speak of the mission which I knew you had been entrusted, in case he used legimilency against you, continued Dumbledore, (…) I can help you, Draco." (HBP, Chapter 27)

It seems to me that Dumbledore could not confront Draco with the job he had been entrusted with until he had settled everything he wished to settle, before he allowed Severus to kill him. As other posters have pointed out, if he had told Draco anything earlier, there was always the possibility that Voldemort would 'read' Draco during one of the school breaks, murder him, and tell Severus to get on with the job at once.

So I think DD's plan was to confront Draco at the end of term, when Draco would have been utterly desperate and more likely to accept his protection plan. That gives him time to settle his own affairs, and even if he hadn't suceeded in settling them, it would still have been time for him to depart this world, because of the Horcrux injury. He never expected Draco to actually succeed in finding a way to let the DEs in.

IMO, what's much more puzzling is why Voldemort allowed Draco to blunder around for a whole year trying to kill Dumbledore, when he could have ordered Severus to do it at any time. Punishment for Lucius may work as a motive for a while, but it seems to be more in this impatient and unimaginative wizard's character to crucio or humiliate his victims for only a short while before dispatching them with an instant AK.

Of course JKR needed a year's time for plot reasons, or HBP would have ended almost as soon as it had begun. I guess we have to assume that Voldy decided to take a year's vacation before becoming Master of the Universe for all eternity.

------------

Draco has some different factors that make his choices less clean cut. Snape had one person who he loved greatly whose life depended on the choices he made. That was Lily, and to attempt to protect her, he had to choose to betray Voldemort. But in attempting to make choices that would protect the people he loved, Draco's options were far less clear. (Wynnleaf)

I agree, and I also think upbringing matters. Draco was brought up by parents who were committed to evil. He had never learnt to value or trust goodness. So when he started fearing, and perhaps despising the Dark Side, he had no one to turn to.

As for Severus's upbringing, whatever was lacking there, at least he was never brought up to be evil by parents who loved him. So he had indifferent parents, good influences from Lily, bad influences from his Slytherin friends. The important thing here is that he loved someone who was on the right side, so he was able to turn to a powerful wizard of the other side to save her.

Draco doesn't trust his own side. And having no understanding of goodness, he hasn't a clue that the good side will help him if he went to them. I think it wasn't Severus's ability to love that saved him so much as his ability to love something that was 'good'.

To Severus, Lily seems to have been the embodiment of goodness. "You're not going to end up in Azkaban, you're too - " Too...what? We'll never know, but it was evidently something so opposite to the quality that would land a person in Azkaban that young Severus couldn't even find a word to express what he felt Lily was. IMO, it was this love for the goodness represented by Lily that ultimately brings Severus over to the good side.



Julia H. - Oct 13, 2009 3:03 am (#1806 of 1825)
I think it wasn't Severus's ability to love that saved him so much as his ability to love something that was 'good'.

I agree. While he was able to love someone good, he did not fully belong to the evil side even when he wanted to. Even genuine DE's can love, but Snape's ability to deeply love someone on the other side, "someone good", allows him to rise above himself and saves him from evil.

Interesting observation how the child Snape notes the difference between people who do "really bad stuff" on the one hand and Lily on the other hand...

Draco, however, is trapped on the bad side, having no meaningful connection with the good side at all, and it is his parents' fault.



Chemyst - Oct 14, 2009 5:08 pm (#1807 of 1825)
Had Dumbledore been able to bring Harry to the Cave earlier in the year -- which seems to have taken some research and time after acquiring the true Slughorn memory -- then he would have had Severus kill him sooner.

well ... I think that as long as DD was healthy he would have tried to keep finding the remaining horcruxes. DD was trying to send Harry to get Snape in the hope that Severus could treat the effects of the potion– until Draco showed up. Had Dumbledore been able to bring Harry to the Cave earlier in the year, and had Snape been able to patch him up on his return, then DD would have begun looking for the Hufflepuff cup while Draco was still covertly trying to fix the cabinet. Remember, DD thought that the potion was a longer-term poison that would have allowed Voldemort to gloat for a while before the drinker would have succumbed to it. It is reasonable to think that Snape might have been able to extend that term somewhat, as he had done with the ring.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 14, 2009 9:11 pm (#1808 of 1825)
I agree with the above thoughts in the respect that Dumbledore seemed to want to prolong his life when he arrived back from the Cave. As mentioned in my last post, I believe his priority during the school year was Horcruxes over Draco's life. However on this thread, if one is trying to determine what prevented Dumbledore from acting before he did (or didn't) regarding Draco, I offered a few options. It seems Dumbledore's priority regarding Draco was preventing him from 1)becoming a murderer and 2)harming any of the students or himself. So if that meant having Severus kill him sooner (i.e., prior to the night of visiting the Cave) he would have, if not for the Slughorn memory and wanting to bring Harry to the Cave. JM2K



Soul Search - Oct 15, 2009 8:31 am (#1809 of 1825)
My impression was that Dumbledore had originally planned for Harry's education about Voldemort to occur much later and for the Horcrux hunt to be something they took on together until all had been found and destroyed. His plans were accellerated when he, foolishly, put on the ring and when the Ministry, also foolishly, allowed Voldemort to come to power so quickly.

What we saw in HBP was Dumbledore trying to balance Harry's Voldemort education with his own efforts to identify and locate Horcruxes. Everything came to a desperate end when they returned from the cave and Draco appeared on the tower.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 15, 2009 10:22 am (#1810 of 1825)
Dumbledore's death was sometime in June. He injured his hand the previous summer and estimated he had a year to live. So I don't see everything coming to a sudden halt because of Draco's attempt on the Tower. If anything, IMO, he seemed to be way behind schedule. On that note, if he was intending to offer protection to the Malfoys he was also seemingly running out of time.



Soul Search - Oct 15, 2009 2:04 pm (#1811 of 1825)
I meant Dumbledore's plan before he put on the ring. At that time he still had a long life ahead of him and Voldemort had just suffered a setback at his and Harry's hands. We have the evidence from the pensive memories that he had been working on identifying and locating the horcruxes for some time. Indeed, it was the curse on the ring horcrux he found that changed his original plans. Actually, he may not have intended for Harry to have to hunt horcruxes at all, figuring he would have time to find them. He may have only taken Harry to the cave just in case something else went wrong, which it did. Although having Harry along did prove useful.

The point was that Dumbledore did not have a completely free choice in his plans. He was pressed for time because of his injury and Voldemort's growing power. Snape had made the unbreakable vow and Draco proved a little more capable than Dumbledore had estimated. Voldemort's protection on the cave and the locket horcrux may also have been more than anticipated.

Draco became an unanticipated complication. Either Draco killed Dumbledore or Snape had to. This didn't leave much margin for error.

He still had more he wanted to teach Harry and maybe even a few more things to say to Snape. He just plain ran out of time on the tower.



PeskyPixie - Nov 10, 2009 4:11 pm (#1812 of 1825)
Once again, I join a discussion after it's over.

"I guess we have to assume that Voldy decided to take a year's vacation before becoming Master of the Universe for all eternity."

LOL, Mona!

I agree with MEAMS. Upon his error with the ring, Dumbledore has an entire year (perhaps even less) to prepare Harry for the task he must complete without his assistance. He really seemed 'behind schedule' in this department.

Draco's situation is unique in that he does get a lot of love and is capable of returning it. Unfortunately the objects of his affection (i.e. his parents) are evil. JKR always comments on how 'love' alone saves people. However, it's not that simple in Draco's case.

It's surprising that in a school like Hogwarts, it seems as if no one makes the effort of introducing good influences to Slytherin House.



Orion - Nov 11, 2009 9:31 am (#1813 of 1825)
It seems as if the nastiness of Slytherin is accepted at Hogwarts as a natural part of the human gene pool. They are a very tolerant bunch.



Solitaire - Nov 11, 2009 10:45 am (#1814 of 1825)
JKR always comments on how 'love' alone saves people. However, it's not that simple in Draco's case.

Do you think it could be that the pure, unselfish, sacrificial love of Lily is different from the more selfish, self-seeking love that Draco has always known?



legolas returns - Nov 11, 2009 11:55 am (#1815 of 1825)
Members of other houses don't always act like angels.

I think that there will always be those that will veer towards the darker side of magic and there will always those that fight for tolerance.



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 11, 2009 12:07 pm (#1816 of 1825)
It's difficult for me to call the Malfoys "loving", even to each other. Narcissa redeemed herself to a large degree, and in that I commend her. She's not a dragon lady through and through. But I cannot help drawing similarities between the DE's and the mafia. You can read all about how fathers "wack" sons and visa versa when required. I really don't think the DE families would be much different if need be. Narcissa was our exception to the rule. I don't recall anything truly redeemable about Lucius's behavior. Once he failed Voldemort at the DoM and then his wand failing to perform, along with other "disappointments", Voldemort put him on the poop list and Lucius had no choice but follow his wife's lead. I think he knew he was never going to be "okay" in Voldemort's eyes again.



Solitaire - Nov 11, 2009 2:18 pm (#1817 of 1825)
I'm surprised the Malfoys survived Voldemort's "tantrum" at the Malfoys' mansion, following the escape of Harry and the rest ... but I guess he needed the numbers. Does anyone remember how/when Draco returned to Hogwarts? He was at the mansion with the kids, and he was in the castle during the battle. The Trio spent a lengthy stay at Shell Cottage, didn't they? I wonder if he was sent back to school when the Trio departed? Forgive me if I've forgotten.



Chemyst - Nov 11, 2009 4:42 pm (#1818 of 1825)
Draco was home on Easter break. I assume he went back a week later? It was mentioned that Ginny went home to the Burrow for Easter and stayed.

...it seems as if no one makes the effort of introducing good influences to Slytherin House
But wouldn't that be Snape's job during the first six books? Slughorn seems to have tried his own version of positive influence with his Slug Club, and probably did more to unite the houses than anyone else, actually. (But it was just a different mode of a class system.- topic for another thread.) But since Draco wasn't admitted to the club, the only influence that it had on him was to make him feel left out.

I think the argument would be that self-seeking, envious, and prideful "love" isn't true love at all.



Solitaire - Nov 11, 2009 5:12 pm (#1819 of 1825)
the argument would be that self-seeking, envious, and prideful "love" isn't true love at all.

That was kind of my point. The kind of "love" (or what he thought of as love) he had probably received most of his life had been more about making him feel superior to others rather than loved. It's possible that until their lives were in jeopardy, the Malfoys never really thought about what it really meant to love.

BTW, thanks for the reminder about being on vacation.



Julia H. - Nov 12, 2009 5:10 am (#1820 of 1825)
It seems as if the nastiness of Slytherin is accepted at Hogwarts as a natural part of the human gene pool. They are a very tolerant bunch. (Orion)

Is it really tolerance? It reminds me of a Muggle school where they put all the "difficult" children into one class separate from the rest of the children. What is the purpose of such a step? Is it merely separation so that the others can work in peace in classes? In that case, the "difficult" class will remain a bomb waiting to explode, i.e., a place where particularly nasty things can be expected to happen any time, as the children reinforce each others' bad tendencies. Or is it done with the additional purpose of providing special counseling, extra attention, guidance to the difficult kids?

If they were simply tolerant at Hogwarts, they would not put most of the nasty students away from the rest. But once they sort these kids on the basis of their shared bad tendency (emphasizing the tendency as those kids' most important characteristic), they should do something about it as well.

But wouldn't that be Snape's job during the first six books? (Chemyst)

It would, but he could hardly have done his other job (that of the spy) successfully if he had been known as the Head of Slytherin who had effectively cured Slytherin students of their "Slytherin" tendencies and pureblood mania, counterbalancing the influence of Death Eater families with "mainstream" Hogwarts values. The genious that he was, Dumbledore must have realized that, and it would have been his job to try and find some other source of good influence on Slytherins. It would have made a lot of sense because Hogwarts was basically training an army of future Death Eaters to serve Voldemort.

Slughorn seems to have tried his own version of positive influence with his Slug Club, and probably did more to unite the houses than anyone else, actually.

I suppose it is because the Slugh Club consisted of students from different houses. But I don't think it was enough in itself for two reasons:

Invitation to the Slugh Club was largely based on Slytherin values, albeit on the more acceptable ones. Slughorn picked the students who were likely to become successful because of their talent or their connections, probably combined with the necessary ambition to succeed. The values represented by other houses did not receive a lot of emphasis in the club. Instead, Slughorn sought out non-Slytheirn students with Slytherin qualities.

Another problem is the real purpose of the Slug Club, and I think we are told quite plainly that the primary purpose was not so much inter-house unity as Slughorn's personal ambition to wave a network of influential fans around himself.

It goes to Slughorn's credit though that he did not invite budding Death Eaters (well, except for the earliest times, when he did invite Tom Riddle and his gang), but he was willing to invite a Muggleborn and the kid of a "blood-traitor" family when they otherwise "qualified" for membership.



Vulture - Jan 6, 2010 7:41 pm (#1821 of 1825)
It seems as if the nastiness of Slytherin is accepted at Hogwarts as a natural part of the human gene pool. They are a very tolerant bunch. (Orion [/b]- Nov 11, 2009 8:31 am (#1813))

Is it really tolerance? It reminds me of a Muggle school where they put all the "difficult" children into one class separate from the rest of the children. What is the purpose of such a step? Is it merely separation so that the others can work in peace in classes? In that case, the "difficult" class will remain a bomb waiting to explode, i.e., a place where particularly nasty things can be expected to happen any time, as the children reinforce each others' bad tendencies. Or is it done with the additional purpose of providing special counseling, extra attention, guidance to the difficult kids? (Julia H. [/b]- Nov 12, 2009 4:10 am (#1820))

I don't think that the characters of JKR's world think in terms of gene pools or scientific explanations _ they would see that as Muggle substitutes for magic.

Nor do I think that it's a case of deciding that certain kids are "bad" and sticking them in one House _ I think that's seeing it the wrong way around.

For me, Book 2 provides the clearest answers as to why Hogwarts accepts the antics of Slytherin House: Hogwarts is often spoken of as if it's a living thing, and as if its four Founders' Houses are an integral part of it. Unfortunately, since Salazar Slytherin's departure (if not earlier), there has, in my opinion, been a curse on Slytherin House.

This does not mean that anyone who is Sorted into Slytherin is doomed to be evil. Snape and Slughorn turn out not to be, and Harry, whom the Hat thought could "do very well in Slytherin", makes a conscious choice against it. In other words, as Dumbledore says near Book 2's end, it is our choices that are the ultimate deciders of what we turn out as.

Nevertheless, no-one who is Sorted into Slytherin can remain simply untouched by the curse on it _ even if they consciously choose the good path.

Much of this, I feel, operates on the level of imagery and symbolism rather than being stated in precise words. Also, we're not given much indication of what will happen to the curse I've described after the fall of Voldemort (beyond the glimpse of a different future given by Harry's acceptance of his son possibly being in Slytherin).



Solitaire - Jan 6, 2010 11:25 pm (#1822 of 1825)
Nevertheless, no-one who is Sorted into Slytherin can remain simply untouched by the curse on it _ even if they consciously choose the good path.

Slughorn is certainly selfish and hedonistic, and he likes being surrounded by the rich and famous. Is he corrupt? I think he has the potential for it, if he had gone into politics. As it is, he mainly name-drops and uses people ... but he does not seem to have been touched by evil in the same way Snape has been, despite his kind of "mentor-ship" of young Riddle in his Slug Club. Snape was quite literally "marked" by his deliberate decision to pursue a course of evil when he joined the DEs.



Vulture - Jan 7, 2010 11:35 am (#1823 of 1825)
I quite agree about being marked by joining the Death Eaters _ it's definitely a step farther towards evil than Slughorn ever took.

My feeling about Slughorn (and it's just a feeling) is this: firstly, he's a character created in Book 6, and (again, this is just my opinion) I feel that JKR lost her sureness of touch somewhat after Book 5. Yes, Slughorn is a well-designed character _ but I expect more inconsistencies in relation to him than with characters created in Book 5 or before.

Secondly, although Slughorn didn't turn out too badly (and of course, is shown choosing to fight for the good side in Book 7), he certainly is affected by Slytherin House _ in Book 6, despite Slughorn's protestations, Harry feels that he shows a bit too much surprise at achievements by Muggle-born wizards for Harry's liking. The common trait of all Slytherins is that they start out with Salazar Slytherin's feeling that, ideally, wizards should stick to their own kind and not marry Muggles or have children by them.

Draco would certainly agree with Salazar on that. Snape, before he meets Lily, would too _ and even with Lily, finds it hard to shake free of that feeling, though he doesn't like to apply Salazar's rule to Lily herself.

Slughorn ? _ I doubt if he was much different to start with. In both his and Snape's case, what saves them is Lily. She's portrayed (mostly through Slughorn's Book 6 account of her) as a sort of beacon of goodness who affects all those around her. It may just be coincidence, but we're told of no incident where she's attacked or even spoken harshly to by a Slytherin during her schooldays. I'd be interested to hear JKR confirming whether such a thing happened.

(This seems to be more about Slughorn than Draco, so I'm copying it to the Slughorn thread also.)



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 7, 2010 7:50 pm (#1824 of 1825)
Slughorn reminds me of people who make prejudice or stereotypical statements about people of other cultures then say "Some of my best friends are (Jews, African-American, Muggles, ...)

Draco is a "pureblood". He is not entirely evil, just a snob. Snape chose to be evil. Slughorn likes "bribes" but isn't entirely evil. There are many grey areas. LPO

Edit: Vulture I like your idea of the Slytherin house being cursed. I love the concept of Hogwarts being a living think I wonder if Voldy had won if Hogwarts would have tolerated the ending of the other house.



Vulture - Jan 8, 2010 9:40 am (#1825 of 1825)
Well, Chamber of Secrets was one of my favourite books (I guess it ties for top spot with Prisoner of Azkaban and Order Of The Phoenix), so I guess I'm very influenced by it.

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