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Ginny Weasley

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Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:42 am

TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 6:41 am (#1201 of 2152)
Has Ginny lost herself in her relationship with Harry? We do not see any interactions with her friends. No mention of doing anything she would usually do. But, I can hear you now...there is not enough information, or that is not important. Clearly, the lack of details of Harry and Ginny's relationship relegates it to background information and is suggestive of Ginny being the 'warm fuzzy' at the end of the story. Which may or may not be herring.

The suggestion that Ginny has not agreed to the break up and will intrude upon the quest,splitting the focus of the hero, would make the battle that much more difficult. To do so would be very selfish on her part.

Should they, as suggested, marry off Harry to Ginny and Ron to Hermione, making them all brothers and sisters, I would find that much too cutesy.

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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 4, 2006 6:50 am (#1202 of 2152)

That's why the characters need to be stronger than the gimmick. If they are well drawn, we'll forget about how "cutesy" it is and be all happy for our fictional heroes. Which is why I want more Ginny, because if she is not as fully drawn as the trio then it is a weakness in the story.

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TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 7:12 am (#1203 of 2152)

Mrs Brisbee - because if she is not as fully drawn as the trio then it is a weakness in the story.

... or lack of importance to the central theme.

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The One - Mar 4, 2006 7:17 am (#1204 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
Exactly, The Saint.

It is nothing wrong with Ginny, as long as we see her as a background character of limited importance. But if she stays as thin as she is, and she turns out to be important, I will feel a bit let down.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2006 9:53 am (#1205 of 2152)

Should they, as suggested, marry off Harry to Ginny and Ron to Hermione, making them all brothers and sisters, I would find that much too cutesy.

Oddly enough, I would find that to be realistic.

Ginny has already shown she has perseverance. She never gave up on Harry, but she didn't sit around pining for him either.

JKR gives us more than enough information about Ginny, but it is subtle and not something she shoves in our faces.

First of all, she's friends with Luna. That means that she spent some time away from her housemates talking to someone from another house. JKR didn't have to tell us how many hours Ginny and Luna spent getting to know each other. Her being friends with Luna says enough.

Secondly, we were told that Ginny is popular. In my high school popular girls weren't Pansy types, but were nice, friendly, talkative to pretty much anyone, and didn't chase after boys the way Romilda Vane does. To go back to Luna, during the Quidditch match where she was the commentator, she said Ginny was nice. That speaks volumes about Ginny's character and personality without JKR needing to give a ton of examples.

Next in line is that Ginny isn't the shy and insecure girl she was in first year. That girl wouldn't have hexed Zacharis Smith or told off Blaise Zabini. She has the confidence she needs, and she is willing to stand up for her principles and her friends.

JKR has said quite a bit about Ginny without having to fill chapter after chapter about her.

Ginny does understand Harry, but understanding him doesn't mean she has to be a meek and submissive person who stays in the background. She won't force herself on him and his quest, but if a situation should arise when she feels needed such as going to the Ministry in OotP, she will stand her ground and do what she can to help.

Ginny hasn't lost herself in her relationship with Harry, and I do feel that she and Harry understand each other, but there is a war on, and whether or not Harry sees it, Ginny and her family are heavily involved in it.

Ginny is a strong and talented witch who is in the thick of things, and I can easily see her helping out because of necessity and because she's throwing herself at Harry.

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Puck - Mar 4, 2006 10:26 am (#1206 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well said Weenry Owl! *clap clap*

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2006 10:42 am (#1207 of 2152)

Dang it... I missed the editing deadline time.

That last line should be: and not because she's throwing herself at Harry.

PS: Thanks, Puck.

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TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 11:17 am (#1208 of 2152)

She has said quite a bit about Ginny, but not enough for me to invest in her as a fully developed character.

They are all nice to Luna, so I think that either speaks volumes about them as people who can rise above juvenile categorizing..or it speaks volumes about the other 90% of the school that see her as an outcast. Luna saying she is nice, to me only means she is nice, I do not read volumes into it. She says the same for the rest.

I should hope five years later she would be more confident.

Weeney Owl - 'and I can easily see her helping out because of necessity'

Seems in 'OOTP' While planning this quest, Harry had not felt that she was needed, but she insisted on coming anyway. Then she wound up as a possible target for torture from Bella and a burden for Luna. Was she really helpful?

I am glad you corrected that last line...as wondering if you were trying to help me. Smile I don't believe I said anything about 'throwing herself at him'..I was merely commenting on the lack of information we have on thier interactions. Though I do think if she forces her way into the quest, it will again be for selfish reasons.

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The One - Mar 4, 2006 11:26 am (#1209 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
And, it is interesting that when arguing about why she should come to the ministry, she argues her right to come, she does not argue her usefulness. "I care as much about Sirius as you do" "I am older that you was when..."

Her only hint at usefulness is her mention of the Bat Bogey hex....

And, we also learn that Harry brings her, not because he thinks she may be useful, but because he does not have time to argue. No doubt she forced herself into his quest.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2006 1:56 pm (#1210 of 2152)

She was only fourteen at the time, though, and she did prove herself to be quite useful in that she is the one who came up with the plan to get Harry into Umbridge's office in the first place, and she certainly helped in getting wands back and such when she used the Bat-Bogey Hex on Malfoy.

Harry didn't want anyone going with him except Ron. He was willing to have Hermione, but he didn't want anyone else. It wasn't just Ginny in that instance.

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TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 2:32 pm (#1211 of 2152)

That was not Ginny's plan..that was Hermione's. Ginny's contribution was the lie about the garroting gas. It also says that all four left in the hands of the IS cast a jinx or two...Ron only said that Ginny's bat bogey was the best one..which hardly qualifies her with all the credit.

No, it was not only Ginny that they did not want going..but she was the one arguing about it. Seems the original reason he wanted to leave Hermione behind was a lack of thestrals, not that he did not want her coming. She was to stay behind and attract more thestrals with her blood soaked clothing for the rest of them to ride.

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Sticky Glue - Mar 4, 2006 3:10 pm (#1212 of 2152)

I have to agree with Weeny Owl - I think JKR has given us plenty of information about Ginny, it's just not shoved in our faces.

Harry didn't really want to take anyone with him on any of his quests, because he is always in his I have to save everyone mode. He has grown up almost alone doing everything by himself for 11 years - I think he still finds it hard to allow anyone to help him.

He has also grown up not having any real examples in his life about having siblings - so to a certain degree he copies Ron and his brothers attitude to Ginny - They treat her as a helpless baby sister, so Harry does as well. (I would say that Ginny has had to find ways around this - which has made her strong and independant, and maybe a bit of a rebble - She loves the way that Bill is a bit of a rebble and what he wears - If given the chance I can see her following in Bills footsteps in the way he dresses and being a bit of a rebble.)

Harry's problem I think is that his feelings for Ginny have grown and changed, and I don't think he has quite adjusted to that completely at the end of HBP - He's still trying to be a protective brother by breaking up with her.

I think Ginny will be involved in some major battles along with Harry, I also think she knows she has to give him the space to mature before they get together again.

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Lina - Mar 4, 2006 3:14 pm (#1213 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I don't think there is much point to argue. It is about two different views of the world, not of JKR. I agree with Mike and everyone else who noticed that we see things through Harry's eyes. Things that Harry notices are emphasized. Since he is just a teenager, he doesn't notice everything. Those other things are just hinted, mentioned by the way... That's what I like about JKR, showing that life is made of little things. Sometimes you can judge a person just by the way that he or she twitches the hand, or the tone in a sentence. I like noticing those little things, they help me a lot in the real life with the real people. I don't need them to tell me all their history to be able to see if they have been hurt, if they live in the loving family, if they are a pleasant company, fair or unfair. That's how I see Ginny too. Some people need more elaborated descriptions, and I can understand their request, but I doubt they will get it. Because I see life made much more of little hints than of big revelations, and that's why Harry Potter series seems so realistic to me. It doesn't have to seem realistic to everybody.

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Catherine - Mar 4, 2006 3:37 pm (#1214 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
No, it was not only Ginny that they did not want going..but she was the one arguing about it. TheSaint

I believe that the text does not support your statement.

Neville quietly insists "Then we should come too....we want to help" (OoP, 761)

Harry says angrily, "Don't be stupid, we can't all go!" to which Luna, Ginny, and Neville "burst into more protests." (763)

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2006 4:53 pm (#1215 of 2152)

I should have been more specific... the plan to actually get Harry into the office was Ginny's in that she came up with the way to block that corridor.

I wasn't giving Ginny all the credit for the escape from Umbridge's office, but she is the one who brought down Malfoy, and it was significant enough that it was mentioned.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I find Luna thinking Ginny nice to be significant. Luna is a girl whose very own housemates hide her things, and if her own housemates aren't willing to get to know her and Ginny is, then I believe that speaks very highly of Ginny's character.

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Choices - Mar 4, 2006 6:43 pm (#1216 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Poor Luna - don't you want to just give her a big hug!!! I'm so glad Ginny is kind to her.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2006 9:20 pm (#1217 of 2152)

I agree completely, Choices, and that's another reason I find Ginny to be a very admirable person.

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TheSaint - Mar 5, 2006 9:13 am (#1218 of 2152)

Only Ginny gets a hug? Harry is nice to her (he even took her to a party), Neville is nice to her, Hermione is nice while she tolerates her, heck even Ron is nice to her now. Why is Ginny the only one who gets credit for being nice?

Ginny's argument starts long before Neville speaks up. She argues that she cares about Sirius, she argues that she is not too young, she even snaps at Hermione about needing more threstrals. Then she proves herself utterly useless in battle. All that arguing to be a burden?

I also agree that I don't need the details of Ginny (how did you so eloquently put that)shoved in my face! I agree that you can know someone by subtlety, just not a major character.

Could be Harry treats her as a 'helpless baby sister' because he has already had to rescue her once? Maybe he does not like the idea of her being hovered over by Volde again. Perhaps that is why, and not that he can't get past her station in the family.

Should Ginny prove useful, it would probably be the attempt of sacrifice ala Caradoc and Guimier. This is the only way I can see Ginny being of any assistance to the quest. It seems we have played the snake scene in COS however, unless it reemerges at the end.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 5, 2006 9:59 am (#1219 of 2152)

Ginny gets credit for a couple of reasons... one, we're discussing her, and two, Luna specifically mentioned in front of everyone who was at the Quidditch match that Ginny is nice. It isn't that no one else is nice to Luna but that it was said in front of everyone at school, and if JKR is having characters say things in front of an audience, then it seems to be important.

We don't know that Ginny was useless, or even that Ron was useless. We don't know what went on since we weren't with them. At the end, only Harry and Neville were standing, so perhaps only Harry and Neville were helpful, but Neville not so much since he got his nose broken.

Ginny is a year young than the trio. She's had different experiences. She can't, nor should she, become a clone of Hermione or even her own brother. Ginny has demonstrated at the age of fifteen that she is quite capable on her own.

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Choices - Mar 5, 2006 11:30 am (#1220 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
TheSaint - I think you misunderstood my post. I meant I (me personally) wanted to give Luna a hug. Poor thing, the other kids are not always kind to her. I am well aware that Harry and his friends are generally pretty nice to her, but the reason I mentioned Ginny in particular is because this is Ginny's thread and we are here to discuss Ginny.

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TheSaint - Mar 5, 2006 12:58 pm (#1221 of 2152)

Didn't Luna tell us what happened. They were chased into the planet room and a DE grabbed her ankle.

No one said she should be a clone... She is not a fully developed character for me and therefore not a main character and should not be inserting herself into the quest.

I can see a grand gesture in the finale, ala love, as previously stated, but not her participation in the search and destruction missions.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 5, 2006 1:05 pm (#1222 of 2152)

Luna gave a short description, but it was nothing compared to what we experienced by being with Harry after they were separated.

There aren't that many fully developed characters since it's Harry's story. Ginny is as well-developed as most, and more developed than plenty of others. She should insert herself into the quest if JKR feels that way, but if not, then that's fine. However JKR sees Ginny's role in the books is fine with me.

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TheSaint - Mar 5, 2006 1:23 pm (#1223 of 2152)

Weeny - However JKR sees Ginny's role in the books is fine with me.

LOL..well it would have to be, as she is the creator.

I am just saying that it is like having a wonderful mystery with a butler who has been opening the door through each chapter, but in the second to the last chapter the butler gets a name..and in the last one..the butler did it!

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The One - Mar 5, 2006 2:07 pm (#1224 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
To me this discussion is not really about Ginny being nice or cool or capable. She does look like a cool, nice, and capable character.

But, we do not really know her that well. And we are not speaking about a secondary character, we are speaking of the girl that apparently are going to function as Harry's anima, the woman that is set to replace Hermione as his female counterpart in the Alchemyst process.

If this really is JKR's aim, then her description of Ginny, and of the relationship between the Hero and the Babe is a bit shallow for me. If we are to really believe that Ginny is capable of filling this role, the description of the cool, feisty and capable young girl is not enough.

Because what matters for Ginny in that role, is not only who she is, but also who she is in her relationship with Harry. I need to see her as an independent character, and I need to see and believe that she and the hero really complements each other, improves each other and can help each other to enlightenment.

By the end of HBP I do not see that. And by the end of the book Harry has removed her from his quest.

JKR really needs to do some hard work to make it work for me by the end of book 7.

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Catherine - Mar 5, 2006 3:49 pm (#1225 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
But, we do not really know her that well. And we are not speaking about a secondary character, we are speaking of the girl that apparently are going to function as Harry's anima, the woman that is set to replace Hermione as his female counterpart in the Alchemyst process. -The One

I'm confused.

When has JKR stated that Harry has an anima? Or that Hermione needs to be replaced as a female counterpart in alchemy?

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The One - Mar 5, 2006 4:24 pm (#1226 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
She has not.

She has not. But she appears to write her story in an Alchemyst tradition, as a hero's journey towards enlightenment. In that kind of journey the union between the solar and the lunar, between the male and the female have an important place. In such a setting either Ginny must do what I said, or Hermione is most likely to play those roles, and Ginny is nothing but some girl in Harry's life of litle consequence for his struggle towards enlightenment.

The last one, is the role Ginny with her current description seems most likely to fill. But it is not the role I would expect the hero's girl to fill in such a story.

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Catherine - Mar 5, 2006 4:53 pm (#1227 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
He has not. But she appears to write her story in an Alchemyst tradition, as a hero's journey towards enlightenment. In that kind of journey the union between the solar and the lunar, between the male and the female have an important place.-- The One

I believe that young adult (YA) authors in general write their stories about the maturation process, or the process by which one comes of age. I did not think that to write about this means that one write about alchemy or, that growing up, or having an epiphany of some kind, was the province of an alchemist.

Has JKR specifically addressed Ginny's character in terms of alchemy? Are there particular words or imagery which suggest such an analysis? We have a thread for that discussion.

Do you think that Ginny should not be paired with Harry, despite JKR's saying that she is Harry's "ideal?" Perhaps you should be discussing that on the 'shipping thread.

We have an alchemy thread on the Forum, and we also have a 'shipping thread. Let's keep this thread dedicated to discussing Ginny Weasley, the literary character.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 5, 2006 10:17 pm (#1228 of 2152)

Comments on previous posts:

Ginny can not be the 7th daughter of a 7th daughter. She can be the 7th child of a 7th child, but that is NOT in the books. If it's important, I wish Jo would put it in the books. Not everyone goes looking for interviews to try to understand the text.

As far as Ginny's understanding of Harry forming before the relationship did, it has been established that the Ginny Harry was seeing at first was not the real Ginny, that she was not being herself when she had the crush on him. So where was this understanding coming from, if she was not being herself?

Ginny Weasley as a character is not satisfying to me, because we don't see what her motives are or even who she really is. And I don't buy that it's because Harry cares about her and doesn't see her faults, so we can't see them. He has never had a problem with seeing the faults in the other people he's close to, including Sirius, Hermione, Ron, and Hagrid. As for loving her, he never said he did, and she never said she did.

Ginny bores me to tears, and the constant comments I get on various boards telling me I HAVE to like her because Jo does irritate me. If Jo wanted me to like her, she could have made her likeable instead of such a plot device. Ginny's whatever she needs to be at the moment, not a well-drawn character.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 6, 2006 1:59 am (#1229 of 2152)

Die Zimtzicke, I see the point of view that you are expressing. However, I respectfully diagree because, the idea in order for material to canon the material must be contained within the books ignores a treasure trove of material provided by the author.

The readers of the series beenefit from the interviews because, they deepen the understanding of the secondary characters like Ginny, and Neville, and Luna. Indeed the explanation for the conduct of Molly Weasley's in CoS chapter eighteen after Ginny is rescued from Tom Riddle and her boggart as described in OotP chapter nine are explained on J.K Rowling's website. Also, the interviews further define the intent behind certain passages of the book.

For example, in OotP chapter six One of the Twins makes the following statement about Ginny Size is no guarantee of power. Look at Ginny. You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat-Bogey hexes, have you?"

This concept was further elucidated in several interviews given by the author.

I would argue that J.K. Rowling's website and interviews given by her as the author supplement the Harry Potter cannon.
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frogface - Mar 6, 2006 2:40 am (#1230 of 2152)

No one is telling you that you have to like her at all. We're just arguing the reasons why we do like her.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2006 9:23 am (#1231 of 2152)

If Jo wanted me to like her, she could have made her likeable instead of such a plot device. Ginny's whatever she needs to be at the moment, not a well-drawn character.

Oddly enough, I think JKR has made her quite easy to like.

If JKR were writing according to the rules of a contest or something like that, writing to the exact terms of a particular formula, then perhaps I would see that Ginny needs to be more developed. JKR writes to the beat of her own drum, though.

I view these books more like a TV series where the main character and the main secondary characters remain through the whole thing. We know more about them because they're in the thick of things from the start.

Ginny is a secondary character, but not a main one. Harry's love life isn't that important to the basic scheme of things, although it does have some importance. Ginny fits in quite well for me because she is given enough importance in Harry's life but not too much. After all, these books are about Harry and his defeat of Voldemort first and foremost, and they're not about Harry and his romantic encounters. Those are just to provide atmosphere and to show that Harry, regardless of what he's going through, is still a normal person growing and changing.

Ginny is important to the development of Harry as a normal boy. She may or may not be important to the end of Voldemort, but we're seeing her grow and change as well. With the limited space JKR has to devote to other characters, I think she's done quite well in showing us how Ginny has gone through her own changes.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2006 1:19 pm (#1232 of 2152)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just surprised so many people even care that I don't like her.

But be honest...unless Jo does an appendix like Tolkien did, to the last book, do you honestly think people who read these books ten, or twenty or fifty years from now, are going to go hunt down all of her old interviews to get information? Not all fans do that now.

I agree that Ginny is necessary to Harry's development, but not necessarily as a normal boy. He can never be a normal boy. No one will ever totally understand what he is, and they will always remember what he was. He's like William on the X-Files in that way. That's why I think Ginny was a chance for Harry to just see for a short time what it would be like if he WERE normal. But he himself said that being with Ginny was like living someone else's life.

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Chemyst - Mar 6, 2006 6:40 pm (#1233 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Die Zimtzicke, I think it is rather unusual that someone who doesn't like Ginny keeps posting on the Ginny thread. Most folks who don't like her character settle into indifference and don't bother to post here. (Although quite often, people who hate Snape post on the Snape thread.)

...and you said,
Ginny Weasley as a character is not satisfying to me, because we don't see what her motives are or even who she really is. We don't see Snape's motives either, yet many love that mystery about him.

Ginny is no lady of mystery. For what action of hers do you think motive is missing?

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The One - Mar 6, 2006 11:19 pm (#1234 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
To me it is not a question about liking Ginny or not. To me Ginny is quite likable, what I know of her.

It is just that to me the depth of her development as a character seems more fitting for a background character then for one of the main characters.

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Puck - Mar 7, 2006 5:52 am (#1235 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I'm wondering if it's easier for us females who either relate to Ginny ourselves or who had friends like her to understand the charcter. We unconsciously fill in the blanks, so to speak, rounding out the character in our own minds.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 7, 2006 8:06 am (#1236 of 2152)

Regarding this statement:

"Die Zimtzicke, I think it is rather unusual that someone who doesn't like Ginny keeps posting on the Ginny thread. Most folks who don't like her character settle into indifference and don't bother to post here."

I did not see any instructions anywhere not to post unless you were 100% satisfied with Ginny's character development. If that's the case please direct me to the place where people who are not 100% satisfied with her development should post.

With the other characters, we know more about what makes them tick. Ron wants to make something of himself so he doesn't get lost in the crowd, and to be successful. Hermione is desperate to fit into this new world she's found, and is by the book person who wants to do something important with her life. Neville is trying to live with his past, and be a good friend to Harry, even though he appears not to be brave on the surface. Luna has suffered loss, and is treated badly, but she remains calm, and helpful, and by marching to the beat of her own drummer, gives a new perpective. Snape is walking a fence, and you want be around to see which side he falls on. What does Ginny do?

Ginny changes from book to book. In book one, she was the little sister who wanted to go gawk at Harry like a zoo animal.

In book two she was the girl with the crush, a crush that Harry tried to ignore and the girl who got involved with a diary when she had been raised to be wary of such things. She almost got Harry and Ron killed, and got a lot of people petrified, but when it was over and she was off the hook, she was perfectly happy.

In PoA she is mercifully to my mind absent.

In GoF she was still the little sister, but starting to become a real character. I liked her best there. She was nice to people.

In OotP we supposedly saw the real Ginny for the first time. What we saw before was supposedly not the real Ginny, so it didn't seem to matter. She wasn't herself around Harry previously, but now she was getting over him and becoming her own person. He still thinks she's too young to help him, and when she tries she gets injured and needs to be rescued again, but she's more real.

But in HbP we are told she never got over him, and she is not nice to a lot of people. She's just a teen with a bad temper and a sharp tongue. We never see her discuss anything important that's happened with anyone. We don't know what she wants out of life, except to survive the war and snog Harry, I guess.

If she's just the prize Harry is going to get for winning, I'm disappointed, because I do think she could have been interesting. She lost me when Harry, who had ignored her for a long time, suddenly saw her kissing other boys and decided he wanted some of that, too. When he kissed her in front of fifty people, she jumped right into his arms so he could lead her off, not to talk, as he made clear but to please his chest monster. I think he was a jerk in that scene, and she let him be. If she had gone off for a nice talk about who she is, and who he is, and what they have to do and want, it would have been great, but it wasn't for me. A friend of mine said he saw he as just the Weasley with the uterus who can be Harry's past, present and future, and nothing else. That bothers me a bit, as an older woman.

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Solitaire - Mar 7, 2006 8:14 am (#1237 of 2152)

I don't relate to Ginny at all. I am much more like Hermione, who loves to sit in dusty libraries and research obscure information. LOL I have, however, taught adolescents for twenty years. I see Ginny as a very realistic adolescent girl, as I've said many times on this thread. As a character, she seems a lot like the more popular teen girls I see at school on a daily basis--bright, pretty, friendly, independent, athletic, and a little stubborn. I do not see what about that character is so bothersome!

Ginny is certainly not a main character, but she was a pivotal one in Chamber of Secrets. I think it is very likely that something she has seen or done or may do--or something she is--may hold the key to some events in Book 7. Her experiences with Voldemort may come into play once again. Ginny is one of only a handful of characters who have had contact with him that extended over a period of time (months of interaction with Riddle)--as well as actual direct contact with Riddle, down in the Chamber. This, if nothing else, sets her apart from other characters with her level of development.

Solitaire

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Catherine - Mar 7, 2006 8:19 am (#1238 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I did not see any instructions anywhere not to post unless you were 100% satisfied with Ginny's character development. If that's the case please direct me to the place where people who are not 100% satisfied with her development should post.

I could never presume to speak for Chemyst, but perhaps she was concerned about the tone that this thread has taken lately.

When he kissed her in front of fifty people, she jumped right into his arms so he could lead her off, not to talk, as he made clear but to please his chest monster. I think he was a jerk in that scene, and she let him be.

I'm wondering why we'd blame Ginny for being swept off her feet by one of the most fanciable boys in school. She's liked him forever; he's been mooning over her for a long time. I thought that scene was romantic and sweet. Also, I would agree that Harry has acted like a jerk once or twice, but I didn't think that scene qualified.

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Esther Rose - Mar 7, 2006 8:41 am (#1239 of 2152)

If she had gone off for a nice talk about who she is, and who he is, and what they have to do and want, it would have been great, but it wasn't for me.

I have yet to see any teenage couple to talk like this. To me, it is the teenage years and from what I remember of my own teenage years, romance can be quick and abrupt. Especially for a 15 year old girl. (To the point of lasting a day, an hour, one kiss.) So it might have been easier for me to accept the situation and just enjoy it for what it was.

And to add Die Zimtzicke, I don't think anyone is concerned at all about forcing you to like Ginny. Just like I hope you are not concerned with trying to force anyone to not like Ginny. It is clear to me that both missions would be fruitless anyway. =)

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Solitaire - Mar 7, 2006 10:13 am (#1240 of 2152)

Ginny and Harry act like normal teenage kids. If you don't believe it, come to school, put on your invisibility cloak, and lurk around the halls and out in the corners of the playground.

As for Ginny's reasons for liking Harry ... so what? It's pretty normal for teenage girls to have fantasies and dreams about dating the school's most eligible guys. Throughout my high school career, I had crushes on some of the hottest guys in school--most of whom probably never even knew I existed. So what?

If I'd had a brother who was friends with those BMOCs, I'd probably have had a chance to get to know them. I might even have been able to live out my fantasy of dating one or two of them. Again, so what?

Ginny's initial crush on Harry may have stemmed from hero worship. As the two of them have gotten to know each other better, it has probably gone though a number of stages ... pesky kid sister of friend, one who has shared the "Voldemort experience," respected Quidditch player, girl who has become interesting in her own right.

I think some people are being awfully picky about Ginny. I think she is one of the most realistic characters in the book ... right down to her vocal dislike of Fleur. I do not like that aspect of her behavior, but it is certainly normal enough.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 7, 2006 10:26 am (#1241 of 2152)

This is not a shipping thread, but I suppose if Ginny has no other purpose other than to be the love interest, shipping has got to come into it.

For the record, I'm not opposed to H/G to the point that I'd cry if it ended that way. I do think it's possible to have a happy ending. I'm just not sure of it happening. I like well-done happy endings as much as the next person. But the H/G I saw in Hbp was not well done for me. I want to see the couple, no matter who it is, work at the relationship, and I want to see the process by which they get there. I didn't think that was well-done with Ginny, because I do not see her character as well-defined, and I didn't see the development of the relationship as done well.

If everyone else in the fandom did, I'm happy for them.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 7, 2006 10:36 am (#1242 of 2152)

In book two she was the girl with the crush, a crush that Harry tried to ignore and the girl who got involved with a diary when she had been raised to be wary of such things. She almost got Harry and Ron killed, and got a lot of people petrified, but when it was over and she was off the hook, she was perfectly happy.

That's really harsh. Ginny was an eleven-year-old girl. With all the stuff Harry, Ron, and Hermione get into, Ginny not being wary of the diary isn't any worse than what they've done. She didn't almost get people killed, nor did she get them petrified... that was Tom Riddle. Granted he was working through her, but still, she was only eleven years old.

She lost me when Harry, who had ignored her for a long time, suddenly saw her kissing other boys and decided he wanted some of that, too.

It wasn't sudden, actually. It gradually came to pass from him spending most of the summer being around her to the first potions class when he smelled flowers and eventually realized that that was Ginny's own scent.

As for Ginny not being nice, what about Hermione? She certainly wasn't nice about Fleur, she used the Confundus Charm on McClaggan, and she sent the birds after Ron. Ginny wasn't any meaner to anyone than Hermione was, yet it almost sounds as if the standards for Ginny's behavior are a great deal different than the ones for Hermione's.

I want to see the couple, no matter who it is, work at the relationship, and I want to see the process by which they get there.

I don't see that happening with any of the characters in the HP books because they're not romance novels. I don't care that much about Ron and Hermione finally knocking off their stupidity or how they did it. I just want to see them, once and for all, be a couple and not at odds with each other. Same with Harry and Ginny... what they discuss in private or do in private is their business and I don't want to witness it. JKR put them together and that's fine with me. If she keeps them apart, so be it. If she gets them back together, that's wonderful. I really don't want the details. I want the details of how Voldemort will be defeated, and the Horcrux search, but the rest of it is just bits and pieces to fill out the realism as far as I'm concerned.

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Lina - Mar 7, 2006 3:39 pm (#1243 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Oh, I want some details on Snape too, Weeny Owl! But yes, I guess this is the Ginny thread... And I agree that those are not romance novels. I don't see Luna described any better or more than Ginny. I do like them both, but I don't see how would Luna be well written and Ginny not? The development of the relationship would be important if their love were the central theme of the series. But it is not. Their love is here just to make them more realistic and more human, to show that we are talking about the kids that could be any kids we know in the real life. At least, that's how I see it.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 7, 2006 4:08 pm (#1244 of 2152)

Yes, Lina, I should have added details about Snape being needed.

I do agree with you, that the relationships are more atmosphere than anything, and they do make the kids seem human and realistic.

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Chemyst - Mar 7, 2006 11:14 pm (#1245 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I did not see any instructions anywhere not to post unless you were 100% satisfied with Ginny's character development. If that's the case please direct me to the place where people who are not 100% satisfied with her development should post. - DZ

Aw, gee. 'Terribly sorry you took my post the wrong way. My saying that most folks who don't like Ginny's character settle into indifference wasn't meant to sound snappish. I guess what I was thinking in my head but never got onto the computer screen was that I find it unusual for someone to assert on one hand that we don't know enough about who this character is or what her motives are, and then on the other hand be able to have strong feelings if so much is unknown. (That is simply-uncommon unusual or not-often-seen unusual. I did not mean aberrant unusual.)

As I said back on March 1st, I don't see how Ginny could be fleshed out much differently than she has been; we can learn about her only at the rate of Harry's awareness.

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The One - Mar 7, 2006 11:57 pm (#1246 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
A real person you do not know anything about, you should neither like nor dislike, that is true.

But still it is completly logical to dislike the description of a fictional character we do not know much about, if you feel that you should know more about her in order for her to fullfill her function within a story.

We do not discuss a real person her, we discuss a work of fiction. The "rules" for what it make sense to "like" or "dislike" is somewhat different.

We seem to agree on one thing: It is nothing wrong with the fictionl character Ginny, if she is insignificant to the plot. If she is simply there because a 17 year old hero is supposed to have a girlfriend.

But, with Love as a central theme of the story, love as "the power the Dark Lord knows not", I would expect the Hero's love for his woman and vica versa to be important. As parents love for a child has been. As love for parental figures have been. As love for friends has been.

It also very much fits the alchemyst tradition of storytelling to let the union between the male and the female be an important part of the hero's road to enlightenment.

So, to me the development of Ginny does not match what apears to be her role to play in the story.

That might mean that my expectations is wrong, of course. It also mifgt nean that Ginny is indeed badly written. Or it might be an indication that JKR has other plans for Ginny, Harry and Harry's love life than what we see today.life than what

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2006 2:25 am (#1247 of 2152)

It also very much fits the alchemyst tradition of storytelling to let the union between the male and the female be an important part of the hero's road to enlightenment.

That very well may be, but we don't know for a fact that JKR is using a particular tradition of storytelling. She seems to make up her own rules, and to take bits and pieces from various mythologies, legends, and traditions.

She could very well not have any particular plans to make Harry's love life significant to the story since it would be romantic love rather than an all-encompassing love.

How Ginny fits into the story could go many ways, but as a teenage girl, she is just as normal as she could be, and with the limited amount of space, I feel JKR has given the reader a great deal of insight into Ginny.

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The One - Mar 8, 2006 6:15 am (#1248 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
She could very well not have any particular plans to make Harry's love life significant to the story since it would be romantic love rather than an all-encompassing love.

That is of course possible, but there are other kind of love we have seen have been significant that has not been all-encompassing.

As far as we know Lily died for her love for her son in particulkar, not the love for any child.

As far as we know it was the love for Ron and Hermione in particular that saved him from the dementors, not the love for any class mates.

As far as we know it was his love for Sirius his Godfather and surgate father in particular that saved him from possesion, not the love for any random adult.

I do expect also romantic love to become significant before the end of the story. But that is my guess, only time will tell.

But, if I turn out to be wrong in this, it may very well turn out that Ginny will be satisfactory also to me by the end of the story.

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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 8, 2006 7:00 am (#1249 of 2152)

I agree with most of what The One is saying. I'm not really into 'shipping, and, like Weeny Owl, tended to see the romance as atmosphere-- up until Book 6. If Harry was having a more casual relationship, or if he and Ginny had got together at the end of book 7, I'd be perfectly happy with it. But what Rowling said in her interview indicates that what Harry and Ginny have transcends 'shipping. They are True Loves, meant for each other. She must have had a good reason for wanting them to get together now rather than at the end of her story. I think she is trying to contrast Harry and his peers with Tom Riddle. At sixteen Harry falls in love. At sixteen Tom Riddle commits murders and plots to mangle his soul.

I'm thinking now that the reason we didn't get to see much of Harry and Ginny's relationship was because it was still imperfect. From what Ginny said it sounds like she accepts that Harry is both the person and the hero at the same time, and she loves all his aspects. Harry sees himself as two separate entities still. I think Ginny needs to be revealed as Harry comes to terms with his roles. Since the relationship looks to be important to the story, I'm looking forward to Ginny being fleshed out in book 7.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2006 10:12 am (#1250 of 2152)

When I said "all-encompassing," I meant love in more than just the romantic way. I should have phrased it differently, but the basics are the same.

Harry's love will win the day, but his love is more than romantic. He loves people other than girls he feels attracted to. That was what I meant, but it was late and I was tired.

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Puck - Mar 8, 2006 8:34 pm (#1251 of 2152)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I don't think Ginny simply went on happily after CoS. Harry didn't pay attention to her struggles after, so we didn't see it. However, we did see a hint that she didn't simply "get over it" Her comment of "Lucky you" in OotP showed us that she hadn't forgotten about being pocessed by LV, even if Harry had. Those 2 words tell us so much. She may have been able to move past the events of Chamber, but they are far from buried. Her reaction to Harry's potion book is another hint of this. Four years later it is still in the back of her mind, a wound that never fully heals.

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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 9, 2006 11:02 pm (#1252 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Two quick notes, 1) Harry falling for Ginny wasn't’t quick, not only did they spend the summer together at 12 GMP, but, you may have overlooked the first mention of when Harry noticed Ginny, it was in OOTP. Coming back from Hogmeade visit, he mentions to Hermione that now Ginny talks in front of him, and asks why. When Hermione answers that Ginny got over him and looks at Harry, he hopes that he face isn’t giving anything away.

2) As for Ginny’s usefulness it was she who had the sense to shut the box at 12 GMP that had mesmerized the others.

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Quidditch Mom - Mar 11, 2006 7:47 am (#1253 of 2152)

If Ginny were somehow able to remember something from when Voldemort possessed her in CoS, it could be the key to finding / destroying a horcrux. I think that may be the role she was meant to play in the books.

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TheSaint - Mar 11, 2006 1:37 pm (#1254 of 2152)

The One - It also very much fits the alchemyst tradition of storytelling to let the union between the male and the female be an important part of the hero's road to enlightenment.

Weeny - That very well may be, but we don't know for a fact that JKR is using a particular tradition of storytelling.

That is precisely what makes it an Alchemy tale. It is a tradition for alchemist to hide their formula, per say, inside other medium, mythology, paintings, religion. There is no doubt that this is an alchemists tale. The rebirth of Voldemort is classic homunculi infused with life force.

All of the children at Hogwarts are evolving. Just through different means. As to which process she is using on Harry, seems elemental, as Ginny does not seem the type for a solar/lunar bonding. That seems more Ron and Hermione's route. Neville through plant alchemy, of course.

"Alchemy is a rainbow bridging the chasm between the earthly and heavenly planes, between matter and spirit...alchemy, the royal sacerdotal art, also called the hermetic philosophy, conceals, in esoteric texts and enigmatic emblems, the means of penetrating the very secrets of Nature, Life, and Death, of Unity, Eternity and Infinity." Staninslas Klossowiski de Rola in his pictorial work on the Great Work.

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Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 3:28 pm (#1255 of 2152)

TheSaint, if you haven't already done so, you might want to check out the Alchemy thread. Some of the ideas you mention are really discussed in depth over there. I think you'd enjoy it!

Solitaire

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Weeny Owl - Mar 11, 2006 4:01 pm (#1256 of 2152)

That is precisely what makes it an Alchemy tale.

No, that is precisely what makes it JKR's world - Alchemy or not. No one knows but JKR herself what type of tale she's telling and what the rules are.

Ginny can fit in this world in ways that defy particular storytelling rules if that's how JKR sees it. I don't look at JKR as a formulaic writer; rahter, I look at her as someone who chooses what to use from a variety of sources, so that there is no particular template.

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Choices - Mar 11, 2006 7:06 pm (#1257 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You are so right Weeny Owl - JKR certainly draws from a variety of sources, endowing each one with her own special flair.

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TheSaint - Mar 12, 2006 4:40 am (#1258 of 2152)

You would have to know alchemy to know.

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Puck - Mar 12, 2006 5:59 am (#1259 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
It has been said that Ginny -growing up in the family she did- should have known to do leary of the diary. What if she had either disgarded it or shown it to a teacher? The true nature of it -as a horcrux- would never have been discovered, and DD wouldn't have come to the conclusion of multiple horcruxes.

Plus, Ron grew up in the same family, and only once warns Harry. Once Harry starts writing in it Ron never says anything about it being dark magic.

What wouold Lucius say to know he had planted the clue to LV's downfall?

I think this makes Ginny's role greater than that of Harry's girl. If not for her "mistakes", Harry would not have a quest to go on!

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Lina - Mar 12, 2006 8:24 am (#1260 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I had a problem while I was going to school: do I really have to know that the names of the numbers that take part in a division are dividend, divisor and quotient to be able to calculate the result? I think not. I admire you people who enjoy the alchemy, know its rules and formulas, but I haven't learned much about it to be able to join the conversation on alchemy. Yet, the citation on the alchemy that TheSaint used, reminds me a lot of the way that I see the life itself. Little proverbs and analogies that you can find in the everyday life as well as in the fairy tales or fables. And by watching the everyday life around me, all I can say is that I don't see anything unnatural in Ginny's behaviour or in her falling in love with Harry. I see the HP series as a quite realistic painting of the real life and if alchemy is describing the real life too, then there must be some formula in it that would fit with the way that Harry and Ginny act.

I think that Jo practically admitted the use of formulas when she commented DD's death in the interview with Emerson and Melissa and in her advices for young writers she keeps mentioning making a plan before actually starting to write. Yet, it doesn't mean that she is using the exact formula that people are expecting her to use. I couldn't say that I don't find any flaws in her writing, I would have liked that DD mentioned the new DADA teacher at the beginning of the first year if the position was jinxed, but those flaws I see do not include Ginny.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 12, 2006 2:37 pm (#1261 of 2152)

When I say she doesn't use a formula, I mean a specific one related to a specific legend or mythology.

She takes things from mythology, from fairy tales, from folklore, etc., but she doesn't use only one specific one. She follows the pattern she's set for herself but it doesn't necessarily follow that she's using ONLY one.

How that relates to Ginny is that her role in Harry's life could go any number of ways, and it wouldn't have to follow something specific such as Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty, or the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or Star Wars, etc.

Ginny has had her own experiences, her own adventures, her own good times and bad times, and some of those have nothing to do with Harry while others involve him a great deal. I just don't see her as HAVING to be written a specific way or her relationship with Harry won't work. I see her as being whatever she needs to be to follow the role JKR has set for her, whether it's love and marriage or whether it's something else entirely.

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 19, 2006 11:05 am (#1262 of 2152)

Hi all, Its been a long time. But I have now read all the post! There is some good stuff. Oh yes, I see where there are some that still want the Harry/Hermione ship. "The woman that is set to replace Hermione as his female counterpart" etc. I could have been reading this wrong. But I do not feel that Ginny is there to replace Hermione at all! Harry will always have his best friends and Ginny as a part of his life. As long as know one dies. Harry is in love with Ginny and wants to protect her. That is the only reason for the break up. And Ginny understood why Harry did it. However she never said that she went along with it! I feel that JKR has set Ginny up nicely, for what is coming in book 7. Ginny is gifted, smart and the 7th child of the 7th etc.. She is set up to play a big part of book 7. And at the end of the book it would not surprise me if Ginny ends up being a Auror along with Harry. We will see.

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Choices - Mar 19, 2006 11:48 am (#1263 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
cindysuewho45 - "Ginny is gifted, smart and the 7th child of the 7th etc.."

Has it actually been established in canon or by JKR that Ginny is the 7th child of a 7th child? I checked the Lexicon and neither Molly or Arthur are 7th children, so I don't see how Ginny could be. I know she is a 7th child, but not of a 7th child.

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The One - Mar 19, 2006 1:45 pm (#1264 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
Just a sidenote here:

On the Black family tree it is mentioned one Cedrella Nigellus, who was blasted of the tree because she married one Septimus Weasley. Agewise they may very well be Arthur's parents.

As Septimus means seven, he may very well be a seventh child/son.

So as a sevent child Ginny is probably the granddaughter of a seventh child.

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TheSaint - Mar 19, 2006 1:52 pm (#1265 of 2152)

I was wondering about that myself.

According to Notre Dame's Latin site: septimus (septumus) -a -um [seventh]; septimum , [for the seventh time].

Seventh child of a the child of a Seven child. Not quite the same ring. May be something...may be some more Jo torture.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 2:02 pm (#1266 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Hate to be picky, but… The One, Cedrella's surname is Black, because Phineas' full name is Phineas Nigellus Black (canon from HBP13).

Moving along, I wouldn't be surprised if Arthur or Molly is a seventh child – we do know they had some siblings (unnamed brother/Fabian and Gideon Prewett).

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 19, 2006 2:04 pm (#1267 of 2152)

Finn, Arthur is one of three brothers.

Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Ginny (full name Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be born into the Weasley clan for several generations. The excerpt is found on J.K. Rowling's website: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is possible that Molly is one of seven children.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 2:14 pm (#1268 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Right, thanks Nathan.

Now that I think about it, since Septimus' name is Weasley, Arthur would have to be one of seven for it to work.

So, so much for that…

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 19, 2006 2:23 pm (#1269 of 2152)

Finn it is not necessarily the end of the idea. As was was pointed out earlier Grandfather Weasley could have been a seventh child.

I can just imagine two of Septimus Weasley's brothers being named Sixtus and Quintus.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 2:27 pm (#1270 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Nathan, what I meant was that it ended the idea that Ginny was a consecutive seventh child.

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The One - Mar 19, 2006 2:34 pm (#1271 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
Hate to be picky, but… The One, Cedrella's surname is Black, because Phineas' full name is Phineas Nigellus Black

I stand corrected! Thanks.

But, look into my eyes and say that it is true that you hated to correct me...

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The giant squid - Mar 19, 2006 2:46 pm (#1272 of 2152)

he can't help it--it's the 50-year-old professor in him.

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Chemyst - Mar 19, 2006 2:50 pm (#1273 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Ginny is the first girl to be born into the Weasley clan for several generations.

...you know, if Arthurs's four adopted sisters pop up in the last book, I think I'd feel cheated.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 19, 2006 2:52 pm (#1274 of 2152)

Finn, I see your point, yes that does kibosh thar idea.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 3:47 pm (#1275 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Of course I did, The One. *stares you in the eye* And a to Mike.

LOL Chemyst. Come to think of it, if Jo went technical she could make four sisters appear and argue Arthur was one of three brothers, but sure he had sisters!

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 19, 2006 4:37 pm (#1276 of 2152)

No matter how Ginny is a 7th child of a 7th child, if it matters, I wish it had been in the books, not in an interview.

I know, I'm a broken record, but I really do not think years from now people who read these books will hunt down a bunch of old interviews to find out what the things they are reading mean.

I still run into fans who are not Internet fans, who argue with me that her name is Virginia. How hard would it be to spend one sentence tossing some of this stuff in?

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Catherine - Mar 19, 2006 4:48 pm (#1277 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I know, I'm a broken record, but I really do not think years from now people who read these books will hunt down a bunch of old interviews to find out what the things they are reading mean.

I think they won't have to do so.

It's pretty much the norm here to understand that JKR communicates with her fans and that this information should influence our readings of her texts. I am sure that "years from now" this information will be standard in the texts through footnotes.

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timrew - Mar 19, 2006 5:12 pm (#1278 of 2152)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Finn, why is your leprechaun wearing high-heels? Is he height conscious or what?

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 9:01 pm (#1279 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Height conscious in leprechaun standards? What kind of irony is that?

So… something insightful…

I was browsing Wikipedia today and I found it interesting that not all fans consider her interviews canon. So it was sort of a double dose of this fascinating idea that had never entered my head. I would always take into consideration something Jo said. The Harry Potter series is not a world, it is a universe. Jo gives us information through herself which we take to be the facts. However she may offer them to us – through the books, or verbally or on her web site – is up to her. But she is the source.

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 19, 2006 10:35 pm (#1280 of 2152)

Hi all, Well I was thinking about the Ginny 7th child thing and I think it was in a interview back in 2005 with a Cub Reporter that JKR was talking about. When talking about Ginny, MA: Dose she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stuff, being the seventh girl. JKR says Ginnys back story is "first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations" "seventh daughter of the seventh daughter" "gifted witch" " does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again." So it would be from Molly's side that Ginny gets the 7th child thing. And yes JKR did give this info..

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TheSaint - Mar 20, 2006 5:35 am (#1281 of 2152)

Not exactly what that interview says...here is the copy and the link:

MA: Does she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stufff, being the seventh girl —

JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again.

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Based on the old tradition...does not say she is the seventh of the seventh. Oh..and that was Melissa and Emerson's interview.

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Solitaire - Mar 20, 2006 8:09 am (#1282 of 2152)

Well, Ginny can't possibly be the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter, Cindysue ... because she does not have six sisters. We know Molly had two brothers. Whether she also has/had six sisters--or even four other siblings--is unknown, I believe.

Solitaire

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Finn BV - Mar 20, 2006 1:12 pm (#1283 of 2152)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Soli, I suppose the saying could be modified to say seventh child of a seventh child.

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Steve Newton - Mar 20, 2006 1:30 pm (#1284 of 2152)

Librarian
Die Zimtzicke,

I agree with you about JKR material extraneous to the books. I am not certain what will be available and I think that the books must stand alone.

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The One - Mar 20, 2006 3:34 pm (#1285 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
Die Zimtzicke :

I know, I'm a broken record, but I really do not think years from now people who read these books will hunt down a bunch of old interviews to find out what the things they are reading mean.

I agree. My basic attitude is: If it isn't in the books, it never happened. (Or rather, it is not important if it happened or not.)

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Catherine - Mar 20, 2006 4:23 pm (#1286 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I agree. My basic attitude is: If it isn't in the books, it never happened. (Or rather, it is not important if it happened or not.)

Well, JKR does confirm and deny our musings. I think these threads are important to the overall tapestry, so to speak. As much as some readers would like to hold a certain view, JKR has indicated that said view is contrary to her purposes and incompatible overall.

I think her efforts to communicate with her readers are heroic, and quite democratic, as she is not writing a juicy tidbit in a letter sent to one person thirty years later. She really desires that we understand her world view, and that we take certain information into consideration. She makes her statements in a most public and "free for all" kind of way.

That said, I am unsure WHY we are debating the canon/non-canon JKR issues on the Ginny Weasley thread. JKR has said, definitively, that Ginny is Harry's "ideal." Fine.

Perhaps Harry will not aspire to an ideal (I personally do not believe this) or perhaps she will be the "one who got away" (again, I do not believe this).

In other words, discuss GINNY WEASLEY here. It's the proper place.

This thread, ultimately, does NOT exist to debate whether JKR means what she says in interviews or on her websites, or whether we should care about said information.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 20, 2006 4:52 pm (#1287 of 2152)

I was thinking about the conversation between Harry and Ginny at the end of HBP.

"Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you as bait once, and that was just because you're my best friend's sister. Think of how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll know, he'll find out. He'll try and get to me through you." "What if I don't care?" (HBP American Large Print Edition page 820), and it reminded me very much of a quotation from The Lion in Winter

Kings, queens, knights everywhere you look and I'm the only pawn. I haven't got a thing to lose - that makes me dangerous.

Could Ginny act as wild card, much in the same that a pawn on verge of promotion sometimes does in the endgame of a match?
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haymoni - Mar 20, 2006 8:33 pm (#1288 of 2152)

I actually found that passage odd.

Do you think Ginny was bait???

Diary Tom heard about Harry's story/his future via Ginny. He used Ginny to open the chamber. If he was really going to use her as bait, why wouldn't he have taken her into the chamber sooner? Why waste time on Justin, Hermione and Penelope with the basilisk?

When Harry was writing in the diary, Diary Tom didn't really need Ginny anymore.

I can't quite recall what happened when Ginny took the diary back.

I had thought that Harry finding the chamber at the time he did was coincidence and good fortune. Diary Tom was just biding his time waiting for Ginny to die so he could return and go after Harry.

He says his new target was Harry, but I didn't think he meant for Harry to come to the Chamber. I thought he would have gone after Harry once he returned to human form.

But if JKR has Harry saying that Ginny was bait, she must have been.

I just didn't see it that way at the time.

Quite a risk - would Harry Potter really go after his friend's little sister???

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 20, 2006 8:53 pm (#1289 of 2152)

Haymoni, I think Harry would go after Ginny because, the Weasley's and Hermione, provide him with something he has never known really a loving family.

I think that Tom Riddle's original intent in possessing Ginny was to reopen the CoS use the Basalisk against muggle born witches and wizards. However, Ginny filled the diary with her thoughts, and the memory of Tom Riddle learned of Harry Potter, and his history. The memory of Tom decided to learn how Harry defeated him and to destroy Harry.

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Puck - Mar 20, 2006 9:20 pm (#1290 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
It may have been after the first attacks that Riddle got the full story of Harry out of Ginny. At the beginning she may have written about him, but perhaps it was later that she gave Tom all the "dirt" on him.

Was Ginny bait once Riddle changed his goal? I'm not sure. If DD had said so, then I'd say yes, but Harry has been wrong before. I doubt Tom would have thought Harry able to find the Chamber, wouldn't give a second year the credit. Plus, he didn't know Harry well enough to know he was the "Hero" type. I think Ginny's purpose was to open the chamber, give information about Harry, and then to be a life source.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 20, 2006 9:27 pm (#1291 of 2152)

Puck, Tom Riddle admitted to Harry that he used Ginny as bait.

"Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry," said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history." The quote is found on page 423 of the large print edition of CoS.

"From everything Ginny had told me about you, I knew you would go to any lengths to solve the mystery-- particularly if one of your best friends was attacked."..."So I made Ginny write her own farewell on the wall and come down here and wait...."I have been waiting for you to appear since we arrived here. I knew you'd come. The passages are found page 425 of the large print edition of CoS.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 21, 2006 6:59 am (#1292 of 2152)

Ginny wasn't just bait in the chamber. She was a tool to do what Riddle couldn't do himself. That's why it's important the she didn't even know what she was doing, and that she couldn't remember what she did. This is balanced by the fact that she was a fluke...that Riddle didn't pick her, Lucius did, and he did so not knowing what he was really dealing with.

She almost got the school closed, too, which would have made Harry very vulnerable, and helped Voldomert tremendously.

I love "the Lion in Winter" if we're talking about the Katharine Hepburn and Peter O'Toole one, which I think was the best version. I think that quote is very relevant to Ginny, but so is the fact that the many children each did what they felt would promote them the best, that is, make them be seen in their best lights by the ones they wanted to impress.

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haymoni - Mar 21, 2006 8:08 am (#1293 of 2152)

Thanks, Nathan.

I didn't have the book handy.

Once again, I think part of my problem is movie contamination.

I am currently reading SS with my 5-year-old and GOF here at work just so I can fight it off!!!

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Solitaire - Mar 21, 2006 8:21 am (#1294 of 2152)

Regarding Ginny as bait ... didn't Lucius slip the Diary into Ginny's cauldron during the altercation back in Flourish & Blotts? I thought Ginny was selected by Lucius in order to embarrass Arthur more than to draw Harry into the Chamber. Didn't Riddle tell Harry that he became the real target only after Ginny began talking to him--via the Diary--about who Harry was? I am probably having a major brain fade (not the first time, alas), but I got the idea that memory Riddle didn't know about Harry at first ... Can someone clarify things for me here?

Solitaire

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Puck - Mar 21, 2006 8:42 am (#1295 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Thanks Nathan, I forgot that part.

Solitaire, yes, Harry became a target later. The diary Riddle had no knowledge of the events that came to pass after the diary was made. Not until Ginny told him.

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 22, 2006 2:08 am (#1296 of 2152)

Hi all, Yes Lucius was the one who put this into play. And I feel that Tom would have killed Ginny, just to come back. Even without Harry being part of it. But when Tom found out about Harry from Ginny he then became the target. But Harry is just worried about Ginny getting killed so that is why he was thinking about the bait part. I do not know what JKR will do with all this. However Ginny as bait sounds alot like a rewrite of the Sirius story. But like DD told Harry, get to know him. How he grow up and what he liked. This will all help Harry. And it would be part of LV's MO. to use Ginny. I was thinking that we will see some more of Ginny's gifted abilities. And that she would be helping Harry with the DE's etc.. And that she may help keep a eye out for Harry. After all Lily and James worked with each other.

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Solitaire - Mar 22, 2006 1:36 pm (#1297 of 2152)

I feel that Tom would have killed Ginny, just to come back

We already know that Ginny would have died had Harry not destroyed the Diary Tom. Tom was already gaining substance and becoming clearer down in the chamber, as Ginny's life was ebbing away. He was feeding off her soul.

This makes me wonder about the parts of him encased in other Horcruxes. Is there potential for him to possess anyone who might unknowingly find a Horcrux ... as he did with Ginny? Or was that a special case?

Solitaire

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TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 8:20 pm (#1298 of 2152)

Ohhhh...Nice question Solitaire!

Mayhaps DD's hand was black for that very reason? *pictures Volde's soul encasing DD's hand trying to swallow it like the blob* okay, maybe not.

Good question though.

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 23, 2006 12:56 am (#1299 of 2152)

Hi all, I like that Solitaire! And yes, would it not have to be that way. The Horcruxes are there to come back if anything happens to LV. So he can never die. So each one will be able to come to life, and more than likly some one will have to die for that to happen. Who knows, maybe DD had to do that to his own arm to stop LV. Maybe something like TheSaint said, just not the blob, smile!
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Mrs. D. - Mar 26, 2006 9:26 am (#1300 of 2152)

I tend to think the diary was more of a special case as it could interact with people. I am having a hard time picturing how LV could worm his way into the head of someone with the locket. I thought he got to Ginny with the sharing of information.

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Solitaire - Mar 26, 2006 10:06 am (#1301 of 2152)
That is true, Mrs. D. But we do not yet know what all of the other Horcruxes are, do we? Dumbledore has made some guesses, but no one knows for certain just yet. We do know that Ginny was possessed through one of the Horcruxes and Dumbledore was severely injured in the process of destroying another.

I was simply speculating on the possibility of Voldemort possessing--or otherwise attempting to control--someone who unknowingly was in possession of another of the Horcruxes. Since we do not know what the Horcruxes are, I don't think the possibility can be blithely dismissed. What if a possessed locket could be opened? Who's to say what might happen to the wearer when exposed to the soul of Voldemort? Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 31, 2006 10:37 pm (#1302 of 2152)

Hi all, Yes the diary was a special case, but all of the Horcruxes have to be able to bring LV back or what would be the point in making them? I hope Ginny will not ever have to go through anything like that again. I was thinking it only makes sense that LV Horcruxes will have to regenerate, a new LV. Or is it that, he just cannot be killed as long as all or even one of the Horcruxes are still there. I think that was the deal. I know that was the deal. But I still like the other theory also. I cannot believe that I forgot that! I need sleep!!!Talk to you all latter, Cindy Sue

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 7, 2006 8:17 am (#1303 of 2152)

Hi all, Well I was looking in on things, and see that we all stopped here. It looks as if I ended up talking about LV more than Ginny. So how about this, Ginny, I feel like she will have the power to become a Animagus! She is all that 7th child, gifted, etc.. And unlike Hermione and Ron, who Harry will let come with him, when he go's out looking. Ginny may want to find a way to help, without Harry knowing she is there. I feel she is up for it! How about you all?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 7, 2006 8:50 am (#1304 of 2152)

cindysuewho45, I am not sure a witch or a wizard can learn to become an animagus in a year. It took James and Sirius five years to master the spells necessary to do so.

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haymoni - Apr 7, 2006 9:16 am (#1305 of 2152)

Yes, but that was on the sly.

I wonder if Ginny - or anyone else - really wanted to learn, how would they go about it?

Maybe you have to finish school and take a test.

We know James & Sirius were pretty smart - I wonder how Rita learned how?

I wonder if it is a gift - you just always could do it?

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frogface - Apr 7, 2006 9:25 am (#1306 of 2152)

This is a far fetched idea, but maybe Ginny has been trying to do it for years in secret!

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Choices - Apr 7, 2006 10:54 am (#1307 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have the feeling that McGonagall could teach someone to become an animagus, but I would think human to animal transformation is very advanced and very difficult - maybe 7th year stuff. Since Ginny has never voiced any need or desire to become an animagus, I really don't think at this late date she will have the time (or the inclination) to persue it. I just don't see what it would contribute to the storyline. End of book 7...."Oh, Harry has defeated Voldemort....oh, yeah, and Ginny has become an animagus. Well done! And they lived happily ever after." The End

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frogface - Apr 7, 2006 11:07 am (#1308 of 2152)

Well she wouldn't mention it would she, the operative word being secret. As for what impact it could have on the plot, well we don't know because we haven't read book 7 yet. We leave that to JKR. The idea is far fetched but its not impossible. Its no more far fetched than discovering Moody was Crouch Jr in disguise, or say discovering DD has faked his death in book 7. (I don't believe he is alive, I'm just using that as an example).

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haymoni - Apr 7, 2006 11:12 am (#1309 of 2152)

It could be a way for Ginny to hang around Harry without anyone knowing it.

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Chemyst - Apr 9, 2006 2:20 pm (#1310 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I feel like she will have the power to become a Animagus! [...] Ginny may want to find a way to help, without Harry knowing she is there. - cindysuewho45

I like certain aspects of that idea– just not the animagnus part. I think it is very likely Ginny could have another surprise ability. Her skills with broom-flying and the bat bogey hex seem to be largely self-taught. Hermione seems to be a little more aware of some of Ginny's secrets, at least in her dating relationships. And Ginny seems to have her own network of friends; Luna, of course,and some others she recruited for the DA. She has probably made other connections through the Slug Club.

I can easily see the "Ginny wanting to help, but without Harry knowing" part. I can see how Harry could put himself at serious risk by underestimating her. But if her character is intended as the perfect girl for Harry, then she ought to be a girl and not an animal.
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Solitaire - Apr 9, 2006 2:27 pm (#1311 of 2152)

I can see how Harry could put himself at serious risk by underestimating her.

I'm intrigued, Chemyst ... I can see Harry underestimating her and being helped by her without realizing it ... but not hurt. Can you elaborate?

About Animagi ... perhaps that is covered in seventh year transfiguration classes. It certainly seems like McGonagall's area of expertise.

Solitaire

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Chemyst - Apr 11, 2006 5:50 am (#1312 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Can you elaborate?

Oh, simply by shutting down. Here Harry has among his resources a powerful witch with a strong love-bond and he wants to go solo. We had an example of Harry’s 'would-be self-indulgent hero' near the end of OP when Harry's choice was to go to the ministry alone without the Luna-Ginny-Neville entourage. Of course, his friends would not let him do it. At the end of HBP, Harry is again falling into that old pattern of thought: "I'm the guy with the scar, It's all up to me." I think Harry puts himself at risk by excluding her.

There is no truly good and noble resolution to Harry excluding Ginny at this point. If she understands, as it appears she does, then she understands he is being a dolt. To which we ask, 'Why would Ginny settle for a dolt?' Or if she doesn’t understand, he has abandoned her without her knowing why. Either way, fixing this relationship will require heavy apologies; (unless, a la Love Story, love means never having to say you’re sorry. )

Even if animagi are covered in McGonagall’s seventh year class, Ginny would still be in only her sixth. There are some things in the series – time-turners and animagi, for instance – where the reader has 'been there, read that' and I'd hope the grand finale will deal with self-love vs. sacrificial-love more honestly and not resort to magical contrivances.

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Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 10:24 am (#1313 of 2152)

Harry’s 'would-be self-indulgent hero' near the end of OP

I don't think Harry wanted to risk anymore lives than necessary. I think he felt guilty about asking Ron and Hermione, even though the three of them have been tightly bound together in most adventures since the beginning. I do not see his "excluding" Ginny as being a dolt; in fact, I do not even see his proceeding without her as necessarily "excluding" her. I believe Dumbledore pinpointed who his helpers should be, because he knows Harry, Ron and Hermione function almost as one together.

Face it--when loved ones, or even close friends, are with you in life-threatening situations, it is easy to become so concerned about them that you can't focus all your attention on the business at hand (this is common sense, not some weird theory). I think Harry knows well enough what Ginny is capable of doing and handling. He also knows her stubborn streak well enough. If she decides to go with him somewhere, he knows she will not be denied. LOL She is as determined as he is, and he knows it.

Solitaire

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Mediwitch - Apr 11, 2006 8:58 pm (#1314 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Solitaire: Face it--when loved ones, or even close friends, are with you in life-threatening situations, it is easy to become so concerned about them that you can't focus all your attention on the business at hand (this is common sense, not some weird theory).

This is absolutely true. On the other hand, it is also true that people can become accustomed to seeing loved ones in dangerous situations - not that you don't worry in the back of your mind, but you are able to do whatever it is you need to do. As an example, my husband and I are both firefighter/EMTs. The first time he watched me go into a burning building he, an experienced officer, almost couldn't function. Now, though, we are both able to do our jobs without each other's presence interfering. Likewise, while Harry may not like seeing Ron and Hermione in danger, he has become used to it - developed an immunity to it, so to speak. I think he would also learn to do this with regard to Ginny.

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Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 10:11 pm (#1315 of 2152)

The first time he watched me go into a burning building he, an experienced officer, almost couldn't function.

Yes, but I still think Harry's "saving people thing" could pose a problem in this situation. No matter what has happened in the past, he is still a kid. Ginny may be just as capable as Harry, and she may very well feel the need to go along and help ... but I still believe her presence has the potential to compromise Harry's ability to concentrate totally on the business at hand. Heck, I think even the presence of Ron and Hermione concern him.

You and your husband may well be able to focus on the job at hand without undue concern about each other, but I have several friends who are firefighters--my favorite uncle was a firefighter all his life, so I've had the opportunity to know many--and some say that even after years, they still cast an eye around for the female firefighters in life-threatening situations. I realize that is probably considered a "male chauvinist pig" attitude, but I can't help believing that chivalrous Harry would probably fall into this camp. **waiting for the dungbombs**

Solitaire

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Mediwitch - Apr 13, 2006 3:54 am (#1316 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
No dungbombs, Solitaire! I know some men do have a problem with it; it's just the men in my fire department have gotten more used to it, I guess, after watching myself and a couple of other women. The more they work with us, the less chauvinistic they are.

I guess I just hope Harry would not be so chauvinistic. I agree it might be hard at first if Ginny were to join the trio on the horcrux hunt, I just think Harry might get used to it.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 13, 2006 9:55 am (#1317 of 2152)

I completely agree Harry was being a dolt, because for me he was a dolt for much of HbP. But Ginny isn't capable of being more laid back than he is, and calmly telling him not to be a dolt. She can snap at him, but I don't think he needs snapping at. It gets his back up. Harry with Ginny in HbP, while it may have made him happy and given him a taste of what it would be like to be normal, is a case of two dolts for me. She's too much like him in temperment to help him think outside the box, which is what I think he has to do to win.

So I personally hope she has nothing to do with his quest, no matter who else does, which should be easy since he hasn't told her spit about it anyway.

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frogface - Apr 13, 2006 9:59 am (#1318 of 2152)

I disagree, she helped him think outside the box in OotP. Harry would probably never thought of turning to Fred and George for help without her. She's much better and getting Harry to open up than Hermione because she doesn't nag. She seems perfectly able to remain calm in my opinion. And I think Harry was much more of a dolt in OotP. I think he matured alot in HBP and was a more likeble character for it.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 13, 2006 10:16 am (#1319 of 2152)

If Harry hadn't turned to Fred and George, the situation would have been a lot different, though, woudn't it?

I'm not a huge Hermione fan either, because I do think she nags, and I dislike her attitude about house elves and about Marietta, but Ginny was not calm for most of HbP. She was flying off the handle every time someone started anything with her, whether it was Ron, Zacharias, Hermione, or anyone else. As was Harry. They brought out the worst in each other. He's just not focused when he's with her.

And he has never confided anything important to Ginny. Even when he told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, he didn't tell her why.

Harry is the prophecy boy, and I think the horcruxes are his problem and he definitely has to face Voldemort alone. He needs the help of ALL of his friends, but Ginny doesn't seem any more useful to me right now than anyone else does. We'll have to wait and see if that changes.

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Gemini 13 - Apr 17, 2006 9:57 am (#1320 of 2152)

I don't see how they ever brought out the worst in each other. They seemed perfectly happy when they were together.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 17, 2006 7:15 pm (#1321 of 2152)

We hardly ever saw them together, though. That's my problem with it. They were together for about three weeks, and the details got glossed over.

Harry was happy, but he's had such a miserable time growing up, and in his first year, when he was shunned for losing points. His second year everyone thought he was the heir of Slytherin. His third year, he was the cause of dementors flying around and thought he had a murderer after him, and in this fourth year, nearly everyone thought he was a cheat. In his fifth year, almost everyone thought he was mad and a liar. It wouldn't take much for him to be happier than he'd ever been.

Ginny and Harry were both rotten to pretty much everyone around them in HbP. This is not a shipping thread, but thinking about it, love should make us compassionate, happier people. Not make us want to fly off the handle all the time, and shriek, and snap. I still say he's not focused on the task at hand when he's snogging Ginny. And it still bothers me that he has never confided in her about anything he has to do.

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Mediwitch - Apr 17, 2006 7:41 pm (#1322 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Of course, we hardly ever see Harry using the toilet or bathing, so we probably should assume he does do some things that aren't specifically cited in the text!

EDIT: I agree with you, Mrs. Brisbee! I wanted to (nicely, I hope) make the point that we should be careful about making assumptions regarding things just because they aren't explicitly stated in the text.

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2006 7:42 pm (#1323 of 2152)

Well, I for one certainly hope Ginny isn't on par with using the toilet or bathing!!!!

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The One - Apr 17, 2006 11:16 pm (#1324 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
If Harry going to the toilet or bathing had been important to the plot, we would see it.

If your ide of Ginny's importance is: "Harry is a normal teenager boy. He eats, drinks, goes to the bathroom, has a girlfriend wash himsel etc. etc. What is making him special is that he is fighting evil with his pals, Ron and Hermione", then I think your point is a valid one.

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Neville Longbottom - Apr 18, 2006 2:58 am (#1325 of 2152)

I rather agree with Zimtzicke. I find the Harry/Ginny pairing and Ginny as a character in general unsatisfying, particularly in HBP. And the argument, that JKR cannot write everything about Harry's daily life doesn't convince me either, because there is a difference between using toilet paper and getting a girlfriend, after all. ;-) We have seen every step in Harry's relationship with Cho, and yet the one with Ginny is glossed over, which is especially annyoing because I suppose Ginny is meant to be Harry's future wife as well. It also had the side effect in HBP, that for many readers, including me, the breakup scene fell flat, because I had no emotional investment in Ginny or in the pairing at this time and did not care, if they had to breakup or not.

I also agree that Ginny was rather nasty in HBP, but that didn't worry me too much, because she is a teenager in her puberty after all.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2006 3:04 am (#1326 of 2152)

Actually we didn't see every step in Harry's relationship with Cho. We didn't see their kiss, but we definitely saw the kiss with Ginny.

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TheSaint - Apr 18, 2006 4:51 am (#1327 of 2152)

I saw the page where Harry and Cho kissed. Are your pages stuck together? LOL

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2006 6:01 am (#1328 of 2152)

Mediwitch, yes, just me overreacting to what you said.

Still, I think the Ginny/Harry relationship was much too understated after they got together. I could have used actually seeing them interact and share things more, so that there was more emotional investment in their relationship for me. Rowling indicates in interviews that Ginny is important. But I want to see it in the book, not be told about it in an interview.

I also agree that Ginny was rather nasty in HBP, but that didn't worry me too much, because she is a teenager in her puberty after all. --Neville Longbottom

I agree. It's not like the other characters don't have some immaturity issues (including some of the adult characters). Still, I do hope she actually matures a lot for Book 7. One book of nasty Ginny was enough, I think.

Edit: Actually, I don't think "nasty" is the right word, though "childish" doesn't quite cover it.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2006 6:11 am (#1329 of 2152)

I saw the page where Harry and Cho kissed. Are your pages stuck together? LOL

We never saw the actual kiss. The scene faded before it happened, and it was in the next chapter that Harry described it.

We were there for the whole kiss with Ginny, even including how happy it made Harr.

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Neville Longbottom - Apr 18, 2006 6:18 am (#1330 of 2152)


Actually, I don't think "nasty" is the right word, though "childish" doesn't quite cover it.


How about bratty? *g*

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 18, 2006 9:30 am (#1331 of 2152)

I totally agree with the idea that if something is important, it should be on the page, and you shouldn't have to go digging through interviews to find out what the author's intentions were. I didn't see Ginny as being very compassionate, or being that ideal for Harry in HbP.

I see them on their way to being the next Arthur and Molly, who have nothing in common but their children. Molly certainly has no interest in Arthur's job or hobbies. She think Muggle stuff is rubbish and banishes it and him to the shed. She didn't want to go to the world cup with everyone. They have no social life, apparently, since they don't seem to associate with either their muggle OR wizarding neighbors. They were two Gryffindors who apparently were sexually attracted to each other, and that's Harry/Ginny. Ginny is turning into a hotheaded, fire-breathing nag like her mother in HbP who always has to be right.

I know this isn't a shipping thread, but if Ginny has no other purpose than to be the love interst, we deserve to see that develop more. If we had to see the facts in the books, we wouldn't have someone new in the Internet fandom every day posting at some HP site that Neville and Luna are getting together, or some other thing that Jo has only told us in interviews. If Ginny is important to Harry, and the plot, let's see some interaction between them, or at least see him tell her something important. Tattoos are not more important than prophecies, I would hope.

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haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 9:50 am (#1332 of 2152)

Maybe its the Slacker Mom in me, but if I had all those kids and they wanted to go to a football game or something, I would stay behind too!!!

Ginny & Harry are only 15 & 16 - there isn't a whole lot going on there EXCEPT for physical attraction. That's usually how most of us met our significant others, as well as those who turned out to be insignificant!

Harry enjoys his time with Ginny because it isn't Horcrux Hunting or Dumbledore Dying or anything Serious/Sirius at all. He can just be. It doesn't have to be anything more than that right now.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2006 10:37 am (#1333 of 2152)

According to you, Die, my parents should never have married, but they lasted for forty-five years until my father died.

They had little in common as far as interests, but they did have the same belief system as far as morals, ethics, religion, and politics. My mother is a bookworm. My father was an avid golfer. My father couldn't have cared less about Shakespeare, for example, while my mother felt it to be nearly torture to go to a ballgame.

As for Arthur and Molly's social lives, perhaps they do quite a bit of socializing when the children are in school. We have no way of knowing what their private time together is like.

I can agree with you for the most part, haymoni, except they do have their beliefs in common as well. The whole pureblood thing isn't something Ginny would buy into, for instance.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph.

As for Ginny being snotty in HBP, who wasn't? I think the only character who didn't irritate me through the whole book was Luna. All of them had their snotty moments, and since Ginny is just fifteen, it certainly isn't uncommon.

Regardless of her snottiness, she was still there when it mattered. That's what's important.

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Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 12:24 pm (#1334 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I totally agree with the idea that if something is important, it should be on the page, and you shouldn't have to go digging through interviews to find out what the author's intentions were. I didn't see Ginny as being very compassionate, or being that ideal for Harry in HbP.

The thing is, I don't think one has to go digging through interviews to find out what JKR intends for the series. It is certainly helpful to read the interviews to confirm your thoughts, though.

I think the interviews allow her to speak to a wide audience and clarify issues that her readers care about. Reading her interviews can assist in debunking rumors that seem to spread. Reading the interviews can also let a person know that they may not be "on the same page" as JKR, and that perhaps they should rethink matters. Certainly, the interviews provide context for interpretion and prediction.

I think that JKR did write Ginny as Harry's ideal in HbP, and I was pleased to see in HbP that my hunches about Harry and Ginny were correct. Other readers may disagree, but such readers may find themselves in a minority.

I'm a little surprised, though, that individuals who claim Ginny is not a significant character can find so much about her to argue.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 18, 2006 12:28 pm (#1335 of 2152)

If we had ever seen Ginny and Harry have any kind of serious discussion about their ideas concerning morals, ethics, religion, or politics I would agree with you, but there has been precious little of that. That's the point. We're being told they agree on everything and understand each other perfectly, but we don't have the canon evidence to back it up. If we had more of that, I'd have no problem with the way she's written.

The fact that Hary enjoyed some time with Ginny before breaking up with her tells me a lot about Ginny. Harry was right. It was like living someone else's life. She was there to give him a taste of a normal life, but Harry can never have a normal life. He's always been the means to an end, and we don't know that it will ever be any different.

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haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 12:39 pm (#1336 of 2152)

I agree with you there - as long as Voldy is around, Harry will never have a normal life.

So he had to let Ginny go - way before they could have discussions about how many children they should have and whether or not to invite the Dursleys to their wedding.

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Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 12:41 pm (#1337 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
If we had ever seen Ginny and Harry have any kind of serious discussion about their ideas concerning morals, ethics, religion, or politics I would agree with you, but there has been precious little of that. --Die Zimtzicke

I haven't seen any character have an overt discussion about religion, so that standard seems a bit rigid to me. Does Sirius's song, "God rest ye merry Hippogriffs" in OoP count?

Unless one counts Hermione's warnings about following rules, I can't think of specific instances where the kids speak about morals. Unless one counts Hermione's house elf crusade, I don't think the kids engage in much political discussion, either.

In fact, I think JKR stays away from having preachy moralizing lessons in her novels. I also managed to confirm this by reading her interviews.

I do not understand why Ginny cannot be an "ideal" because the reader has not seen her discuss politics, religion, or ethics (especially when this is not a major concern of the young people in the novel, nor young people in general, at least in my experience as a teacher of middle school, high school, and college students).

So he had to let Ginny go - way before they could have discussions about how many children they should have and whether or not to invite the Dursleys to their wedding. --Haymoni

Giggle! I imagined all sorts of possibilities. I pictured Dudley standing in formal wear holding his hands over his rear end in case someone decided to give him another tail.

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The One - Apr 18, 2006 1:05 pm (#1338 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
They do discuss the meaning off Umbridge beeing assigned to Hogwarts, and the meaning implications of Dumbledore beeing sacked. That is school politics.

The do discuss the ministry's need to use Harry as a poster boy

The trio has meaningfull converstions a lot of the time, discussing a number of issues. They are mostly short ones, as long dialogs are not the style of the story, with the excaption of Harry's dealings with Dumbledore in the later books.

If Rowling wanted to give us depth in the relationship with Harry she could have done it with no problems. But she does not. Ginny is this fantastic girl any boy wants, and she has been wanting the Hero Harry since book 1. That is all that is to it. Or, if there is anything more, Jo has not seen fit to include that in the story.

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Lina - Apr 18, 2006 2:32 pm (#1339 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I think that the JKR characters show their morals and ethics by their actions and not by their words. And Harry's and Ginny's actions show that they have very similar views on these things.

I don't think that JKR would go much into discussing the hero's religious views because that would make her loose part of the audience.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2006 2:37 pm (#1340 of 2152)

If we had ever seen Ginny and Harry have any kind of serious discussion about their ideas concerning morals, ethics, religion, or politics I would agree with you, but there has been precious little of that.

And where did I say they had? I was merely giving a real-life example of how two people who may not seem to have a lot in common actually do, although I do think Ginny and Harry have a great deal in common regardless, even though that wasn't about them, actually.

We're being told they agree on everything and understand each other perfectly

Where is it stated that they agree on everything and understand each other perfectly? JKR said Ginny was Harry's ideal, but that doesn't mean total agreement or perfection. Relationships are never black and white, where things are either completely agreed on or the couple won't last. That just isn't how it works, at least not realistically.

It's really no different than saying that blue is someone's ideal color. How many shades of blue are there? Ginny may be Harry's "blue," but that means that he would accept her with all her various hues just as she would accept him. That doesn't mean they would be each other's "Stepford Spouse."

but Harry can never have a normal life

At the age of sixteen, no he can't. Until he defeats Voldemort, no he can't. Afterward, however, he could easily have a normal life.

In fact, I think JKR stays away from having preachy moralizing lessons in her novels. I also managed to confirm this by reading her interviews.

This is true, Catherine (::waving:Smile. My example of politics, religion, etc. was merely an example of how my parents lasted forty-five years even with not having much in common as far as interests. Two people can come together and love each other even if they don't like the same books, TV shows, movies, music, etc., as long as they share a common foundation, and that includes morals, ethics, religion, and politics. It worked for my parents, after all.

My comment was also not about Harry and Ginny but more about Arthur and Molly. Molly may not like Arthur's interest in Muggle things, while Arthur probably doesn't do too much knitting, but they both have the same outlook on what is happening in the Wizarding World, and with the exception possibly of Percy, their children have inherited their caring and compassionate ways... yes, Ginny included.

Ginny is this fantastic girl any boy wants, and she has been wanting the Hero Harry since book 1. That is all that is to it. Or, if there is anything more, Jo has not seen fit to include that in the story.

And oddly enough, I see a great deal more that JKR has included that does fit with Ginny and Harry.

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Eponine - Apr 18, 2006 3:52 pm (#1341 of 2152)

And oddly enough, I see a great deal more that JKR has included that does fit with Ginny and Harry.

So do I. =)

Where is it stated that they agree on everything and understand each other perfectly?

I believe the exact quote is from Dumbledore's funeral.

...and he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly... (emphasis mine)

Unless there's another quote from the books or from her interviews that I've forgotten about, the only time we're told they understand each other perfectly is when Harry tells her what he has to do. She understands why he has to do it, and he knows that she understands.

This doesn't mean they can look at each other and know what they're thinking. It doesn't mean they'll never argue about things. It doesn't mean that their relationship is going to be rainbows and sprinkles. It simply means that she wasn't going to argue with him. She wasn't going to challenge his decision because she knew he couldn't change his mind no matter how much he wanted to.

Personally, I find Ginny to be a well-developed, realistic character and if her only purpose in the books is to be the love interest, then what does that matter? She's fulfilling her purpose. Maybe it's not to everyone's liking, but Jo was never going to accomplish that. Ginny's doing what Jo wants her to do, and since this is Jo's world we'll just have to take what she gives us.

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Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 3:56 pm (#1342 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
Ginny's doing what Jo wants her to do, and since this is Jo's world we'll just have to take what she gives us. --Eponine

That works for me as well.

::waves to Weeny Owl and Eponine just because::

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Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2006 4:07 pm (#1343 of 2152)

...and he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly... (emphasis mine)

That's another good point. It's possible to understand someone perfectly a time or two.
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Chemyst - Apr 18, 2006 4:52 pm (#1344 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
On Molly & Arthur —
...banishes it and him to the shed. [...] they don't seem to associate with either their muggle OR wizarding neighbors. - Die Zimtzicke

exhibits deficiencies in social skills, prefers sameness, is preoccupied with a particular subject of interest —
**is starting to formulate theory that Arthur has adult aspergers syndrome and prefers the nice orderly arrangement of his plugs**

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Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 5:35 pm (#1345 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
exhibits deficiencies in social skills, prefers sameness, is preoccupied with a particular subject of interest — **is starting to formulate theory that Arthur has adult aspergers syndrome and prefers the nice orderly arrangement of his plugs**--Chemyst

Oh, dear...:::wipes eyes:::

I actually wondered about this. I've always known that my child (with Asperger's) was a wizard at heart.

::goes off to hug daughter and laugh some more::

Back to Ginny, though...her social skills seem quite advanced for her age. Certainly her ability at deception would show more canniness than Arthur or Ron, for example.

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Mediwitch - Apr 18, 2006 6:35 pm (#1346 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
ROFL, Chemyst - I think you're right!!!

I also agree with Eponine - if this is how Jo wants Ginny to be, then this is how it is, and it's fine with me! I feel the same way about Dumbledore dying - I didn't particularly WANT to see it happen, but this is her world and I am happy to visit it without complaint.

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2006 6:55 pm (#1347 of 2152)

Back to Ginny, though...her social skills seem quite advanced for her age. Certainly her ability at deception would show more canniness than Arthur or Ron, for example. --Catherine

Lol, she does seem like a much better candidate to master Occlumency than Harry ever was. Maybe she'll be able to turn her well-honed powers of deception against the bad guys in Book 7, and look them right in the eye as she baldly spins tall tales.

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TheSaint - Apr 18, 2006 8:07 pm (#1348 of 2152)

Ginny's doing what Jo wants her to do, and since this is Jo's world we'll just have to take what she gives us.
Like we have a choice. Sure it is her world, and we are the visitors to it.

Let's just say that by the end of HBP, I was not vested enough in the relationship between Harry and Ginny to care that they broke up. It was just another development in the story, and not one that had much effect on me as a reader. Definately not a crying scene.

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rassannassar - Apr 18, 2006 8:33 pm (#1349 of 2152)

Let's just say that by the end of HBP, I was not vested enough in the relationship between Harry and Ginny to care that they broke up. It was just another development in the story, and not one that had much effect on me as a reader. Definately not a crying scene. -TheSaint

I agree. If there was any crying at all, it was because it was Dumbledore's funeral. I mean come on. If you weren't even a little sad while reading that, you must be a robot or something.

I must say that I do think that Harry and Ginny will get back together, even if it's not until the end of book seven and Voldemort has been defeated. One way or the other, they'll be together.

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frogface - Apr 19, 2006 4:24 am (#1350 of 2152)

Thats fair enough the Saint, but if we were too invested in the Harry/Ginny breakup, it would have taken away the feeling from Dumbledore's death, which I believe, JKR wanted to make a more prominant part of the ending of book Six. If JKR intends Harry and Ginny to reunite before the end (I personally think she does) then I suspect we'll be given a lot more emotional investment.

As for Molly and Arthur, well they love each other, and they seem happy with each other. Isn't that enough to have in common?

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virginiaelizabeth - Apr 19, 2006 6:52 pm (#1351 of 2152)
SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Thats fair enough the Saint, but if we were too invested in the Harry/Ginny breakup, it would have taken away the feeling from Dumbledore's death, which I believe, JKR wanted to make a more prominant part of the ending of book Six. If JKR intends Harry and Ginny to reunite before the end (I personally think she does) then I suspect we'll be given a lot more emotional investment.-frogface

I agree and I think this is why their relationship was sorta glossed over. She knew that they would break up but she also knew that at the same time the reader would be upset about DD. By making it out like Harry and Ginny's relationship wasn't that close and was mostly physical stuff, it makes the break up a little easier to handle. if both of them had become really close and had lots of emotional discussions and such, then the breakup would have made me a whole lot more upset. I definately think that ehy will get back together at the end of book 7 after LV is defeated, and I believe that Ginny will play a crucial role in LV's defeat and that this will only bring them closer.

Molly and Arthur- Ever heard the expression "opposites attract"?

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 20, 2006 12:08 pm (#1352 of 2152)

I want to discuss Ginny's lack of flaws and why.

By flaw, I mean something about her that would prevent a closer relationship with Harry. For instance, Ron's flaw is that he is too insecure and sensitive about his family's lack of money. This was why he and Harry were on the outs for the first part of GOF. Hermiones' flaw is her know-it-all-ness. Remember how Harry felt when she told McGonagall that she thought Sirius gave Harry the broom or how Harry felt in book 6 when she insisted that the half blood prince might not be a reliable source of information.

By my above definition Ginny does not have any flaws. There is nothing she has done that has made Harry angry with her. In fact the opposite has happened. Just about every thing Ginny has done has made him feel good.

This does not make a good relationship. Harry's friendship with Ron and Hermione is strong because they have fought and yet still maintained their friendship. Harry's relationship with Ginny hasn't progressed that far. To coin a cliché they are both still looking at each other through rose colored glasses. In order to make Ginny's relationship seem real, she and Harry need to fight so they can make up afterwards. If this happens in book 7, I think this might redeem Ginny for those who feel nothing for he

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virginiaelizabeth - Apr 20, 2006 1:37 pm (#1353 of 2152)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
I agree we see flaws in everyone BUT Ginny. I'm trying to think of one but I can't.

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Esther Rose - Apr 20, 2006 1:43 pm (#1354 of 2152)

I don't know. To me, Ginny seems to have quite a hot temper.

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Lina - Apr 20, 2006 1:53 pm (#1355 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
That is a good point, Rambkowalczyk. That might be the thing that people are missing in their relationship. Although, Ginny did seem to be angry with Harry when he was hiding from other people in OotP...

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virginiaelizabeth - Apr 20, 2006 1:57 pm (#1356 of 2152)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Yes she does have a hot temper, but there is rarely conflict between her and her friends. It always seems to be between her and an enemy.

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Esther Rose - Apr 20, 2006 1:59 pm (#1357 of 2152)

And Harry, and Ron, and Hermione and...

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Lina - Apr 20, 2006 2:05 pm (#1358 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, her brothers, definitely.

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Amilia Smith - Apr 20, 2006 2:37 pm (#1359 of 2152)

But Harry doesn't seem to mind her temper, even when it is directed at him. And she doesn't seem to stay mad for too long. So if we are defining flaws as "something about her that would prevent a closer relationship with Harry," then we can't really count temper as a flaw.

Edit: Her crush that kept her silent and awkward in Harry's presence for four years could count as a flaw, though. But since she has outgrown at least the silent and awkward part, maybe that doesn't count anymore either.

Mills.

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Catherine - Apr 20, 2006 3:39 pm (#1360 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I think Ginny is an assertive person, and that she seems to share the impulsiveness and risk-taking behavior of her brothers.

We seem to find Gred and Forge funny. At times, I wonder if Ginny is being held to a higher standard because she is female. I am troubled when I see negative comments about her for behaviors that are usually not as severely criticized in male characters, or are even lauded in male characters.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 20, 2006 10:23 pm (#1361 of 2152)

I've seen opinions that are very negative where both Ginny and Ron are concerned, yet as you say, Catherine, the twins aren't getting negative commentary.

Perhaps it isn't that Ginny is female as much as it is her becoming attached to the hero. The standard for Justin Finch-Fletchley's girlfriend might not be quite as stringent, for instance, but with Harry, at the very least he deserves Arwen, Princess Leia, Buttercup, etc.

Personally, I think he and Ginny are great together, and I just don't understand the negativity where she is concerned.

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 21, 2006 11:02 pm (#1362 of 2152)

Hi all, I tend to agree with you about some jumping on to Ginny for things that they would never jump on to her brothers for. Some may be feeling that they would like to see a sweeter softer Ginny a young person with all the spunk of a woman back before the dark ages. But then that is not who our Ginny is! I like that she can speak up when it is needed. And that she is brave and has grown up enuff to go after what she wants! She is a lot like Fred and George. And to me that just makes her more fun.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 22, 2006 8:00 pm (#1363 of 2152)

I don't jump on any character because of their sex. I jump on them if what they specifically do bothers me, or if I don't have enough emotional investment in them to understand why they do what they do.

And I have no emotional investment in Ginny. I mean, I feel emotion toward her; she bugs the heck out of me every time she's on the page and she always has, ever since she wanted to go on the train and goggle at Harry like a zoo animal, but do I care what happens to her? No.

I can't stand a lot of things Hermione does, but I feel I know more about her motivations and aspirations. I can't stand a lot of things Snape does, but I think he's a very well writen, complex character. I can't say any of those things about Ginny, though. She's just never done anything that hooked me.

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Susurro Notities - Apr 22, 2006 8:07 pm (#1364 of 2152)

Edited by Apr 22, 2006 8:08 pm
"...back before the dark ages."

What does this mean?

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 23, 2006 12:03 pm (#1365 of 2152)

Edited Apr 23, 2006 12:45 pm
Hi all, "back before the dark ages" was only to say that some do not like a woman that stand up for them self or others. Woman that have a voice. Back years ago most woman, like kids were to be seen not heard. I am happy to say, that this is not the way it is now! I like Ginny for being able to say what needs to be said. I like it when she stands up for her friends like Luna, that our under dogs. I like that she stands up for the man that she loves! etc.. etc.. I was just saying in my last post that some do not like Ginny for reasons like this. Some would hold it against her, the way she is. Along with lots of other reasons, that was just one.

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frogface - Apr 23, 2006 2:03 pm (#1366 of 2152)

I would say Ginny has her flaws. We saw her pretty much lose control in her arguement with Ron. She got pretty nasty. However I can easily forgive this flaw having been in similar rows with siblings myself. Things can get nasty, thats just Brothers and Sisters for you i'm afraid

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rassannassar - Apr 24, 2006 6:13 pm (#1367 of 2152)

I would say Ginny has her flaws. We saw her pretty much lose control in her arguement with Ron. She got pretty nasty. However I can easily forgive this flaw having been in similar rows with siblings myself. Things can get nasty, thats just Brothers and Sisters for you i'm afraid

WOW! I couldn't have possibly said it better myself

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The One - Apr 24, 2006 11:02 pm (#1368 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
I would say Ginny has her flaws. We saw her pretty much lose control in her arguement with Ron. She got pretty nasty. However I can easily forgive this flaw having been in similar rows with siblings myself. Things can get nasty, thats just Brothers and Sisters for you i'm afraid

Exactly. The problem with Ginny is not that she doesn't have flaws, she doesn't have interesting flaws. None of her flaws makr her less cool in the eyes of the reader.

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Nate Davis - Apr 25, 2006 12:47 am (#1369 of 2152)

BYU student
I've always really liked Ginny, and was happy with her character's development in the last two books. I'd always hoped that she and Harry would end up together (although I guess we'll have to see what happens in the next book).

I agree, The One, that she doesn't have interesting flaws. As far as I'm concerned, she's never done anything to make me lose respect for her.

Of course, maybe having four younger sisters has something to do with my understanding and sympathy for her character.

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Solitaire - Apr 25, 2006 12:04 pm (#1370 of 2152)

I believe the Dark Ages were about 500-800 A.D. I think Cindysue probably meant back in the "dark ages," which she used to refer to a time in our culture when women had no social status and no right to express their opinions. Of course, I am just guessing ...

Solitaire

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 26, 2006 9:33 am (#1371 of 2152)

Hi all, Yes Solitaire, you are right. That was what I was referring to.

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Mrs. D. - Apr 27, 2006 7:55 am (#1372 of 2152)

I don't care for Ginny either. She has never been a favorite of mine, more of a nuisance really. Just something there to show family interaction and used to bring Ron and his family even closer to Harry when Harry saved her in the chamber.

I feel as though she is just a cardboard cut out. I don't have any real reaction to her spats with her brothers and all her bat bogey hexes just seem like reminders that "Oh yeah, she is still here."

Again, I saw the first movie before ever reading a book and that actress may have colored Ginny for me. I know JKR has so much input into the films and yet Ginny is not being built into this "ideal girl" for Harry as she is meant to eventually be. I would think that would be foreshadowed a bit more because I must say Hubby will be floored by it if in the final movie they are suddenly madly in love.

There were so few times they were shown as a couple in book 6, that either all of it will be in that film or I can't see it as being important in the end.

I hope the Trio are the ones to defeat Voldemort. They are who I really care about and I will feel so cheated if it comes down to Harry and Ginny doing it. If they end up happily ever after together once Voldie is gone, fine. Just don't make her the star now.

I can see it in the posts. Ever since Jo said she is Harry's girl, the posts have been heavily in her favor and Hermione might as well leave town. She seems to have taken a back seat to Ginny and that is JUST WRONG. I fell in love with the series as I got to know Hermione who reminded a bit of myself as a girl. Living through the adventures with her has been great fun. If she is destined to be upstaged by Ginny now after all this time, it will make me quite ill.

Long live Hermione!!

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frogface - Apr 27, 2006 9:46 am (#1373 of 2152)

I don't think Hermione has been upstaged by Ginny in anyway. People naturally care about Ginny more now because Harry does, but that doesn't mean anyone care less about Hermione. Many fans (myself included) always expected a Hermione/Ron Harry/Ginny pairing, so it hasn't made either of the girls more or less prominent in my mind. I don't think the films have shown much of the Harry/Ginny relationship yet because there aren't really any clues worth noting until OotP, and there are alot more subtle than the clues that pointed to Ron and Hermione. Ginny is probably a more popular character now that she's been moved more to forefront in the last two books, but I don't think she's taking Hermione's place. People discuss Ginny here because its the Ginny thread, so what else can you expect?

I find Ginny an inoffensive character, and I've never really understood why people dislike her. She has flaws just like any other character and this will become more apparent as the Harry/Ginny relationship develops. Remember Harry's crush on Cho? We didn't really see much at all to Cho's character until the relationship was allowed to develop a little more, and obviously JKR felt that book six was the wrong time to spend too much time on Harry and Ginny's relationship. I think we'll see a bit more development in both her character and her relationship in book 7.

Long live both Hermione and Ginny

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 27, 2006 10:44 pm (#1374 of 2152)

Hi all, I like the way you put that frogface. Good job and yes, long live both Hermione and Ginny!!!

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Weeny Owl - Apr 28, 2006 7:12 am (#1375 of 2152)

From the beginning, Hermione was never intend to be Harry's romantic interest, while JKR says Ginny is his ideal, so I don't see how Ginny is interfering in any way at all with Harry and Hermione's friendship.

We may not have found out a lot about Ginny, but we've found out a great deal in some ways, and she has certainly shown that she'll stand up for her friends when it counts.

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The One - Apr 28, 2006 7:26 am (#1376 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
From the beginning Hermione was THE important female character.

The key of it all is love. Wouldn't it be a bit strange if we come to a ending where Harry's love for his two pals Ron and Hermione defeats Voldemort, while Ginny is sitting in the background waiting to be reunited with her hero after the war is over?

Love is the key. If Harry's love for Hermione and him being loved by Hermione is mor important than his love for his girlfriend, that will look a bit strange, I would say.

And if Harry's loving relationship with Ginny is to be the key, then Ginny seems to me to have really replaced Hermione as the most important female character.

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journeymom - Apr 28, 2006 8:10 am (#1377 of 2152)

Ginny has the potential to be very cool. She's appealing to me, at least. She's sharp, funny, mischiveous, athletic, easy-going and courageous. She's got a spine.

I hope she's developed better in Book 7, and I don't see how she won't be.

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Eponine - Apr 28, 2006 10:03 am (#1378 of 2152)

Just because love is the key, doesn't mean only one kind of love is the key. I think it's more likely to be a combination of familial love, friendship love and romantic love.

Ginny isn't replacing Hermione in Harry's life or the books, she's just filling a different role.

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Weeny Owl - Apr 28, 2006 3:16 pm (#1379 of 2152)

That's an excellent way of putting it, Eponine.

We all have the same things in our lives, basically. Our parents and grandparents, our aunts and uncles, our siblings, our friends, our romantic interest, and even our countries are all things we love.

Ginny doesn't have to be the key character for her to have an important role in Harry's life, just as Hermione doesn't have to be a romantic interest to have an important role in Harry's life. Harry is a loving person, and if he can survive being brought up by the Dursleys, he can certainly love a variety of people in a variety of ways.

Ginny is smart, capable, pretty, and a staunch defender of people she cares about. She is the type of person I'd love to have as a friend.

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frogface - Apr 30, 2006 12:56 pm (#1380 of 2152)

From the beginning Hermione was THE important female character - The One.

I would venture to disagree with you there. I would say that from the beginning Hermione has been an important character, who happens to be female. The H/R/Hr relationship is a trio, so you don't get an important male role and an important female role like you often do in films for instance. You get important characters who either happen to be male, or female. If Harry is THE important male character, and Hermione is THE important female character, where does that leave Ron?

I think that Hermoine plays the role of Harry's friend (a sort of adopted sister), and Ginny plays the role of his love interest. To my mind those two roles don't clash.

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 4:07 pm (#1381 of 2152)

It is my belief that Harry and Ginny's newfound relationship should actually strengthen Harry and Hermione's friendship, rather than Hermione becoming less significant. It was Hermione all along that led Ginny in her love for Harry, that told Ginny to play it cool and wait.

Although, I never understood how Hermione can be so good with relationships and not be with Ron yet.

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Mediwitch - Apr 30, 2006 9:04 pm (#1382 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Well, it does take two to tango!

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frogface - May 1, 2006 5:40 am (#1383 of 2152)

Besides, theres an old saying "Every farmer is an expert on every other Farmer's live stock". Meaning its very easy to look at the problems in other people's lives (in this example, relationships) and see simple solutions, but when its a problem in our own life, the solution isn't so obvious. I do like the point you made though Greg about Hermione helping to bring Ginny and Harry together, I think JKR might have been making Hermione in to a sort of a Jane Austin's "Emma" there.

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The One - May 1, 2006 11:31 am (#1384 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
If Harry is THE important male character, and Hermione is THE important female character, where does that leave Ron?

The third most important character in the story? The third most important good character in the story? Comic relief?

Take your pick. From the second half of PoA on,Hermione has seemed to me to be the most important of Harry's friends, with respect to plot. But also, without Harry realising it, on a personal level. In hindsight, Hermione's importance to the main plot starts earlier, despite being out of action for large parts of CoS she contributes quite a bit in CoS.

This changed a quite bit in HBP, where Hermione was almost useless for big parts of the book, apparently due to being lovesick.

Back to Ginny. She had little impact on the plot and was not a part of Harry's quest in HBP. She is just a snoggable babe in the book, she is not really an important part of Harry's life. And in the end of the book Ginny is kicked out of the story, and the trio is "reintroduced" as Harry's most important support. (In many ways Harry was more alone in his quest for most of HBP than he was in OotP, despite being angry with anyone and everyone for all of OotP) Why shift Ginny out nd the trio in at the end of this book, just to reverse it in the beginning of the next? So Ginny will probably remain second to the trio in importance for the last book as well.

And, Harry's girlfriend less inportant to Harry than his female pal? Yes, that is quite normal for a high school crush of little lasting value, but if Ginny is destined to be the love of his life, the love that defeats evil?

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Solitaire - May 1, 2006 12:20 pm (#1385 of 2152)

Harry's relationship with Dumbledore seemed to take center stage in HBP. Ron and Hermione had to do something, didn't they? Perhaps they took this time without Harry to explore their own feelings about each other.

As for Ginny vs. Hermione ... each fills a role in Harry's life that the other probably would not or could not do. Does Harry love Hermione? Absolutely! Does that love preclude his loving Ginny--or any other girl, for that matter? No way! Harry has room in his heart for everyone he loves.

Solitaire

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Eponine - May 1, 2006 12:20 pm (#1386 of 2152)

Personally, I think Ron and Hermione are of equal importance to Harry, but if he was really pressed to choose I think he'd pick Ron. But since this is Ginny's thread, that's not really important.

I love Ginny. I think she's a realistically drawn character, and I'm glad that Harry has found someone who makes him happy. I also think that Harry and Ginny will be getting back together in 7 and live happily ever after (if they both survive).

That said, I do not think she's going to be playing a huge role in 7. I don't think that Voldemort is going to be defeated by the force of H/G's love. I don't think that Ginny is going to usurp Hermione and Ron's roles as Harry's support group and sidekicks.

I do think she'll have a part to play. It might be very significant, but I think it's a part we won't necessarily see happening on the page.

The thing about the H/G breakup is that it is a classic convention in literature for the hero to be separated from his one true love (or whatever you want to call her) until he's completed his quest. He can't allow himself to be distracted by her until he's done what he has to do.

Friendship and Romance are two very different things. Yes, you can have friendship and romance in the same relationship, but the romance is what sets that one relationship apart. It's what makes that relationship different from all the friendships in the world.

Harry loves Ron and Hermione, and he's going to be worried about them when they're off hunting Horcruxes or whatever it is they're going to be doing, but the fact is that neither one of them present the problems that a romantic entanglement would. The fact is, romance often takes over your life in an unexpected way, and he simply cannot have that hanging over his shoulder until he's defeated Voldemort. Then, and only then, will he be truly free to pursue romance.

You cannot measure the importance of friendship and romance on the same scale. They are both vitally important to Harry, but in completely different ways.

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The One - May 1, 2006 1:52 pm (#1387 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
The way the romance is covered, the story would be very much the same if Harry had no girlfriend. Harry interacts with Ginny as a team mate and as his pal's sister, but we hear about the beast within. Then they kiss and run off for a walk, we see Harry grin over the memory of a date, we see him think about her as his best comfort we see ha sillt converstaion about tatoos, just to see the talk turn to real stuff as soon as Ginny leaves, and we see them break up. Thats it.

If that is all we learn about the hero's girlfriend, I would prefered hin to stay single.

The trio is important to Harry's story, his girlfriend is not, as of the end of HBP.

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Weeny Owl - May 1, 2006 2:27 pm (#1388 of 2152)

The trio is definitely important, but so are all of the other characters who impact Harry's life, whether said characters are romantic interests or enemies.

You could say, by using that specific criterion, that Voldemort isn't important to the story since all we saw were memories and he wasn't actually featured much in the present. The same goes with Wormtail, Bella, Lucius, etc., although their importance is sure to come out in the next book.

In real life, if Harry were a surgeon, for instance, and some catastrophe happened where he had to work with other doctors (Ron and Hermione), it wouldn't mean that his relationship with his girlfriend was any less important. It would mean only that until the crisis was over, he would have to concentrate on his job and not his personal life.

That's how I see Harry's quest for Horcruxes. It's the main focus at the moment, and he may have to put aside his personal life for a while, but once all is said and done, he'll have plenty of time to be with Ginny.

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - May 1, 2006 5:10 pm (#1389 of 2152)

The thing about the H/G breakup is that it is a classic convention in literature for the hero to be separated from his one true love (or whatever you want to call her) until he's completed his quest. He can't allow himself to be distracted by her until he's done what he has to do. - Eponine

I respect all of your opinions here, but I can't say I truly agree. Jo's not much for creating a story that fits what others have set before her, in my opinion. But if she did, then it would seem to me that the one that the hero is in love with would have to be much more passive than Ginny. I just can't see Ginny taking her being shoved aside lightly and waiting for Harry again. She waited for 5 years for the moment to finally come, and it seems very unlikely (to me anyway) that she's just going to sit back and let Harry push her around like that. She's just too rebellious in her nature, in my opinion. We see this rebellious nature represented in her continual separation from the connection to her mother, her inability to allow her brothers to push her around (she sneaks out to use their broomsticks when they won't let her play Quidditch with them), and her going out with Michael Corner and then Dean Thomas even though Ron was infuriated by it. I think Ginny's being the baby of the family has left her pretty tired of being casted aside, and this will combine with her love for Harry to leave her a much more important character in the seventh book then some of you are giving her credit for.

Plus, I would also like to say that this isn't the basic "puppy love" Harry seemed to have for Cho Chang. The situations involving the two aren't incredibly awkward, like the date with Cho was. Ginny doesn't cry every time Cho is around. Ginny doesn't talk about how much she liked Dean Thomas when she's around Harry, like Cho did with Cedric Diggory. Harry's very comfortable with Ginny. And, he didn't cast away Ginny like he did Cho. He wanted to shelter her because he truly loved her, not because he was just tired of her. I think that Harry is just too protective of others (tried to go down the trapdoor alone in PS/SS, tried to go to the MoM without Ginny, Luna and Neville, etc.) But we can possibly induce from her previous nature that Ginny isn't going to allow Harry to walk away from her like he intended to do at the end of Book 6.

I'll admit now, I'm pretty biased. I felt Harry should end up with Ginny since CS. I just think that most aren't giving Ginny's potential in Book 7 enough credit. (Ginny Weasley: A Gryffindor and a Match for Harry by Tim Lambarski (1/1/2006) - This is a really good essay for those who may not have read it. It doesn't exactly have a whole lot of stuff to support Ginny's importance in Book 7; I just felt it had a lot of good information about Harry and Ginny's possible "match made in Heaven.")

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Die Zimtzicke - May 1, 2006 6:06 pm (#1390 of 2152)

Ginny is just so vapid. She's just a badly developed character for me. It's all tell and no show with her, and I'd like to see some of the things we've been told are relevant about her. I certainly haven't seen her do anything that would make her Harry's equal. She's been different in evey book. Which is the real Ginny? Who is Harry really interacting with? Or not interacting, since we don't see them interact that much.

It's not disgruntled shipping, either. I'm not into the books for the shipping, because I am in my 50's and I don't think that teenaged crush stuff is interesting. It just irritates me to think that Jo expects us to believe this character knew what she wanted at the age of ten or eleven. There was so much silly romance in HbP it made my teeth ache.

I still can't figure out why Jo said Ginny was compassionate right after HbP came out, when Ginny was shrieking or being rude, and flying off the handle at nearly everyone in it. Again, she's vapid in my opinion.

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journeymom - May 1, 2006 7:32 pm (#1391 of 2152)

I'll agree that Ginny's character should have been better filled out before Harry and Ginny finally got together. In that regard I was a little disappointed the first read-through. But what I see is a strong out line of a character that I like. I like her potential.

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Eponine - May 1, 2006 10:03 pm (#1392 of 2152)

Jo's not much for creating a story that fits what others have set before her, in my opinion. - Greg Fessenden

I think Jo has a tendency to take things that are classic literary conventions and give them her own twist.

For example, in CoS Harry and Ginny played out the classic roles of hero and maiden. The hero slayed the horrid beast and rescued the maiden so they could live happily ever after. Except they didn't live happily ever after. Not yet anyway. It was this timeless tale, but it couldn't end the way we've come to expect it to end, because they weren't old enough yet.

I don't think Ginny's going to be passive about H/G either. Dumbledore's funeral was not an appropriate place to pick a fight about it. Her reaction was the proper one at the time. It was neither the time nor place to throw herself at Harry's feet sobbing for him not to leave her or to insist he take her with him. Any other reaction would have been disrespectful to the situation.

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The One - May 1, 2006 11:07 pm (#1393 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
I don't think Ginny's going to be passive about H/G either. Dumbledore's funeral was not an appropriate place to pick a fight about it. Her reaction was the proper one at the time. It was neither the time nor place to throw herself at Harry's feet sobbing for him not to leave her or to insist he take her with him.

My problem with this is, as I have mentioned before, that the only place where the Harry/Ginny interactions are described in a way implying any depth in the relation is Harry's conviction that they "Understood each other perfectly". That statement will be somewhat diminished if Ginny intends to opose to Harry's decission, but did not find the funeral the right place to do so. A very plausible scenario, but in that case they did nor "Understand each other perfectly" at all.

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Neville Longbottom - May 2, 2006 12:46 am (#1394 of 2152)

I think Ginny won't accompany them on the Horcrux hunting, simply because she doesn't belong there. It would be incredibily awkward from a literally point of view to include her on the mission with the Trio. I think the only possible way of make it believable is, if some of the other secondary characters (like Luna, Neville or the Twins) accompany them as well, otherwise Ginny's presence would just be awkward from the storyline's point of view. Not to mention that, in contrast to Ron, she isn't off-age and therefore she ultimately can't make those decisions on her own and I can't see Molly allowing her to go. That doesn't mean, that I think Ginny won't play a part in book 7, but I don't think this part is to accompany the Trio.

That said, I mostly agree with the users, who did not like Ginny or H/G in book 6. I found it just really, really boring. The fact, that there was a war going on and the whole middle part of HBP pretty much ignored this, didn't help either.

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cindysuewho45 - May 2, 2006 1:06 am (#1395 of 2152)

Hi all, Die Zimtzicke, I know what you are saying, but my mother-n.-law saw and fell in love, she says, with her husband when she was only 12 years old! So it can and did happen. And they were together until he died just a few years ago.

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haymoni - May 2, 2006 4:29 am (#1396 of 2152)

Ginny was the only one who was compassionate enough to lead Harry away from Dumbledore's body.

She's never asked anything from him. She's been there to support him and to be his friend.

I don't think she is suddenly going to become the greatest witch of all time or The Quest Queen. She's just going to continue to support him as best she can, occasionally coming up with reassuring, sensible comments and possible solutions, just as she has since OotP.

I just keep thinking of JKR's comment - "What's life without a little bit of romance?"

Let Ginny be the little bit of romance and leave it at that.

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Eponine - May 2, 2006 7:42 am (#1397 of 2152)

Understanding isn't necessarily agreement. Understanding is simply knowing and accepting the reasons for something.

That said, I do think she'll accept his decision. Ginny's probably not thrilled about the breakup, but she's not going to force the issue. She knows what he has to do, and she's not going to be selfish and try to force him to change his mind.

I doubt she'll be going on the Horcrux Hunt, but I don't think she's going to sit at home/Hogwarts quietly knitting until he comes back. She's not the type. She's going to be doing whatever she can to help in whatever way she can.

The reason why I brought up the funeral was because I see so many people complaining that she didn't show any emotion about the break-up or Harry leaving her behind. Well, it wasn't the place for that. It would have been the height of insensitivity and tackiness for her to react by sobbing or fighting.

I do not think Ginny is going to throw herself at Harry's feet sobbing or insist he take her with him. I was just using those actions as examples that would have been inappropriate since I see so many complaints about her lack of action.

As for Ginny not being passive about H/G, I just think she's going to behave the same way around Harry. (Minus the snogging, obviously) She's not going to avoid Harry or let him avoid her. She's going to keep being his friend and supporting him.
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haymoni - May 2, 2006 7:50 am (#1398 of 2152)

I think she was truthful. She knew it. She knew that someday he would have to go off and face Voldy.

It wasn't any surprise to her - she probably felt some satisfaction in knowing that she had been right.

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Steve Newton - May 2, 2006 9:08 am (#1399 of 2152)

Librarian
I think that she seemed to accept it because she has no intent to agree to the break up.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 9:20 am (#1400 of 2152)

To clarify I know some people meet at a young age, and it works, but the majority of the time it does not. If my eleven year old daughter comes home and says she's met the man she's going to marry, I'm going to have to try very hard not to laugh at her. But I don't think we should go into that too much unless we go to the shipping thread.

I'll just leave it at this: I needed to see more serious, meaningful interaction between H/G to buy that they are close, or truly understand each other. Harry hasn't talked about his past, his feelings, his mission, or anything very important with her. Prophecies are more important than tattoos to me. And we don't know what Ginny wants out of life, or how she feels about much of what's going on. I want to see her motivations if she's going to become a main character. For Ginny to be a really good character for me, I wish Jo had not dropped the CoS incident so completely. It gets a mention now and then, but if it ever really gets delved into, I doubt if I'll care anymore. I wanted it to be explained more in books 3, 4 or 5, at least, if it was going to matter in books 6 or 7. And in book 3, Ginny was practically nonexistant. When she came back full force in book 6, I wondered what the heck happened to her.

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Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:47 am

haymoni - May 2, 2006 10:29 am (#1401 of 2152)
Harry really doesn't need to talk about his past with her because she probably already knows it, either historically or from Ron.

I'm guessing he shared some of his feelings with her after the kiss and up until Dumbledore's funeral.

Harry has the OK from Dumbledore to talk to Ron & Hermione about his mission, so I don't think he'll divulge anything to Ginny.

I think she's just a girlfriend. If she turns out to be "The One" so be it.

I just don't see Harry wasting emotion on too many people. He knows who really cares about him and he'll stick by Ginny.

If he lives through the Quest...

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Elanor - May 2, 2006 11:34 am (#1402 of 2152)

Edited May 2, 2006 12:05 pm
"I'll just leave it at this: I needed to see more serious, meaningful interaction between H/G to buy that they are close, or truly understand each other. Harry hasn't talked about his past, his feelings, his mission, or anything very important with her. Prophecies are more important than tattoos to me. And we don't know what Ginny wants out of life, or how she feels about much of what's going on." Die Zimtzicke

I do agree with you Die Zimtzicke! IMO, Ginny's character was lacking depth in the HBP and, at the same time, there was something harsh about her that I hadn't seen in her in the first books and that I found a bit disturbing.

Besides, I can't help but think that Slughorn's words, in chapter 9: "When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love" (p.177) are important and if there is one obsessive love in the series, I think it is Ginny's. Which doesn't mean Ginny's role in book 7 won't be important, quite the reverse. But it may not be to be Harry's "true love". (I once wrote a long post about that on the alchemy thread: Ginny/Luna).

And finally, knowing the importance of the names' meaning in JKR's world, I still think there would something not right in Harry's "true love's" name being an anagram of "vinegar"... (but here again, only IMHO)

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The One - May 2, 2006 3:09 pm (#1403 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
I always found Ginny a boring character. Luna has much more potential, but the author has not done much to explore the potentials.

I also wonder exactly what is the relevance of the love potion smelling like Ginny? The flowery scent is metioned quite a number of times.

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journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:41 pm (#1404 of 2152)

"And finally, knowing the importance of the names' meaning in JKR's world, I still think there would something not right in Harry's "true love's" name being an anagram of "vinegar"... (but here again, only IMHO) "

I agree, the meaning of her name is important. I've heard it's a variation on Guienevere, of the King Arthur legend. Percival (Percy) was a knight, as well. In one story Arthur battles Lucius, a Roman general. Arthur Weasley has always been at odds with Lucius Malfoy.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 3:48 pm (#1405 of 2152)

Harry DOES need to talk to Ginny for ME to believe they have some kind of understanding between them, as friends or something more. I don't care who has told her what. If he can't open up to her, which he does not do, I can't see them being on the same emotional level. Even in the chocolate/library scene, he just tells her he wants to talk to Sirius. If we were supposed to see them gaining emotional or intellectual intimacy, whey couldn't he have told her a few sentences about what he saw that was really upsetting him? She cetainly would understand about relatives acting like prats! There are other places wher we could have had a bit of real interaction instead of vague hints and silly symbolism.

Others here have said it better than me...I could only think to call her vapid, but "boring", "lacking depth" and "harsh" all fit in there, too.

The flowery scent may very well relate to obsessive love being a problem. You need more than obsession, or even chest monsters or blazing looks, to have a real partnership, relationship OR friendship.

Who knows what Jo was thinking?

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Mediwitch - May 2, 2006 8:09 pm (#1406 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Die Zimtzicke: Who knows what Jo was thinking?

Um, Jo does. This is Jo's world; we're just along for the ride.

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Weeny Owl - May 3, 2006 1:53 am (#1407 of 2152)

whey couldn't he have told her a few sentences about what he saw that was really upsetting him?

Harry didn't really talk that much about a lot of things, and he still isn't talking that much.

I think Ginny is a lovely young lady who has faced many difficulties, is basically a warm-hearted person under most circumstances, and cares very deeply for her friends regardless of how unique they are.

She could have treated Harry the way a lot of other people did in OotP, yet she stuck by him, romance aside, and helped him when she could.

She's friends with an oddball Ravenclaw, went to the Yule Ball with Neville, and told Harry how idiotic he was being in OotP.

She's hardly vapid, boring, lacking depth, in my opinion, and as for her being harsh, who in this series hasn't been besides Luna and Neville, perhaps.

We've seen Harry's father and godfather as teens be horribly harsh. We've seen Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, and countless students be harsh. We've seen members of the Order being harsh.

If Ginny's behavior is harsh, then perhaps James and Sirius got what was coming to them because of how harsh they were at fifteen. Ginny has never done anything to anyone that could even come close to Snape's Pensieve scene. She's basically a caring person, but all caring people have their limits, and add hormones to the mix, and it can have volatile ramifications.

I just honestly don't understand why there's so much hostility where Ginny is concerned. I just love her to pieces.

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Steve Newton - May 3, 2006 4:16 am (#1408 of 2152)

Librarian
Well said, Weeny.

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rambkowalczyk - May 3, 2006 12:14 pm (#1409 of 2152)

Harry has only started his relationship with Ginny and it hadn't gone far before he broke it off with her. It is an improvement over Cho. With Cho it was basically a crush and real life put a damper on it. With Ginny, Harry has gone beyond the crush stage to the getting to know each other phase. As far as Harry is concerned Ginny has come through for him. They share Quidditch moments and she seems to instinctively know what he wants especially at the end when he wants to break it off.

What this relationship hasn't gone through is a fight where they can make up and grow in their relationship. I suspect this will happen in book 7.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 3, 2006 12:39 pm (#1410 of 2152)

Sure, Jo knows what's going to happen. Didn't mean to imply she didn't. But I have seen a lot of people who are pretty darned sure of what's going to happen, and I'm not. I can see this going a lot of ways. I have my favorites, but I'm never going to say I'm sure. When you do, you're asking for Jo to come back and kick you in the teeth.

I am for sure not going to judge any character by what other characters have done or not done. I'm judging them on what I know about THEM, and I know nothing about Ginny's motivations, or what she wants out of life, or who she really is. The Ginny I got to know in the first three books apparently wasn't the real Ginny. The Ginny who got over Harry and was trying to start her life again obviously wasn't the real Ginny, because she never really gave up on him. I don't know who the real Ginny is. I'm not going to applaud her for standing up for Luna, for example, when I saw her call Luna "Loony" herself just one book earlier. She's one thing, then she's another, and none of the Ginny's are worth much to me, except as plot devices.

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haymoni - May 3, 2006 1:48 pm (#1411 of 2152)

And that may be all she is.

I can still like her though.

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Weeny Owl - May 3, 2006 2:24 pm (#1412 of 2152)

Ginny was just ten years old when she first met Harry. The Ginny from the first three books WAS the real Ginny at that time. The Ginny who got over Harry was real whether or not she completely gave up on him. Ginny is a literary character, but if she were a real person, then what she is at ten and what she'll be after school can be very different.

As for her calling Luna "Loony" one time, it's obviously a nickname that's going around, and while maybe she shouldn't have repeated it, she didn't use it to hurt Luna.

I see Ginny as a young girl who is slowly but surely turning into a young woman. There can be huge changes in a person from ten to seventeen, and if Ginny were the same throughout all the books, that's when she would become vapid and boring to me.

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Mediwitch - May 3, 2006 3:22 pm (#1413 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Well, if Ginny is not the same girl at 15 that she was at 10 or 11, I'm not surprised. I was not the same at 15 as I was at 13 even, let alone at 10 or 11. I can't think of anyone I know who didn't change, and sometimes a lot, during those years. Honestly, I'm not the same at 36 as I was at 30 or 33.

If Ginny WAS the same person across the novels, then Jo could be accused of not developing her character. The fact that she is not the same does not mean her character has not developed. I realize some people feel Jo has not fleshed her out enough, but maybe we need to give her a chance and see what happens in the next book.

I'm also curious about those of you who see her as harsh. I know this is not the Hermione thread, but if you see Ginny as harsh, how do you feel about Hermione and her treatment of Luna in OoP or her hex on Marietta that no one can seem to remove?

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cindysuewho45 - May 3, 2006 3:56 pm (#1414 of 2152)

Hi all, I liked your post #1406 Weeny Owl, good job! If Ginny was a real person and not just a literary character. I would love to count her as a friend! I like the way she stands up for the under dog. And how she stands by her friends and is there for the man she loves. She likes sports and is good at it. She under stands peoples feelings and truly cares about them. And she would be a good one to have in your corner if you were ever in trouble, and needed the help. She knows what she wants,and go's after it. She will not let what others say or think keep her from helping or being kind to someone who may not be the most popular person in the world. There are those out there who would. She has a strong sense of family. She stands up for what she believes in. Ginny has lost uncles to LV as well as seen her Dad and Bill almost die. She loves Harry, but wants as well as knows what he has to do. She respects him for it. Ginny did not go off the deep end when Harry broke up with her, because she understood what must happen. However she knows that Harry loves her and that it was not her, but LV that was the problem. I feel that when Harry says that he and Ginny walked around the lake, or set by the lake. That it is safe to assume, that Harry and Ginny were not just kissing, but talking. We do not have to hear all that is said to know that they were becoming close. Or how often they went down to the lake. However, I to would love to see more about Ginny. Not because I have not heard enuff, but because I like her character and would love to see more! And at some point Harry just may tell Ginny what he is doing in more detail. Maybe at the wedding or when he shows up at Hogwarts to find a horcruxes. We will see. I feel that JKR has been slowly building up Ginny for a reason, and we will get to see a lot more of her in book 7.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 3, 2006 9:35 pm (#1415 of 2152)

I think what Hermione did to Marietta was horrible and inexcusable and I was very disappointed to see Marietta was still scarred in HbP. I can't stands the way she tried to trick the house elves either, but she is developed enough so that I know what her motivations and desires, and feelings are about life in general, so there are still aspects of her character I like, even though there are things that make me disappointed.

Luna doesn't CARE what other people think of her, so she's a different kind of case. I like Luna. She is the one character who is always being herself, and not worrying about how other people see her.

What I meant by the Ginny we saw in the first books not being the real Ginny, is that we were TOLD she wasn't acting like herself around Harry. So who was he getting to know?

And the fact that Ginny never gave up on Harry is important. When she was dating Dean and Michael she was trying to more herself, JUST so Harry would notice her. She said so.

I don't believe she loves Harry, or he loves her. They certainly didn't say so. They haven't been together enough, or developed enough in relationship to each other for me to believe it. And she was just rotten to nearly everyone in HbP. The shy, clumsy girl was almost better than the blazing eyed, shrieking girl that was hexing and/or insulting everyone in HbP.

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Weeny Owl - May 3, 2006 10:37 pm (#1416 of 2152)

And the fact that Ginny never gave up on Harry is important. When she was dating Dean and Michael she was trying to more herself, JUST so Harry would notice her. She said so.

Where did she say all of that was only so Harry would notice her? What chapter and page?

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cindysuewho45 - May 4, 2006 2:34 am (#1417 of 2152)

Hi all, It was at the end of HBP, that she said some of it to Harry when he was splitting up with her.

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Weeny Owl - May 4, 2006 4:12 am (#1418 of 2152)

I know she said some of it, but she never said it was JUST so Harry would notice her.

She told Harry that Hermione had suggested she date other people, and that if she could relax around him, he MIGHT notice her. It seemed to me that she had truly given up on him, although in the back of her mind her feelings for him were still there, but that she was going to date and be herself regardless of the outcome, and if it worked out to where he saw her as she really is and was interested, then fine, but if he never noticed her that way, then c'est la vie.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 4, 2006 10:04 am (#1419 of 2152)

Ginny said she never gave up on him. Not really. So I don't know how it seems to anyone that she had truly given up on him, unless they are just counting on the fact that she is canonically such a cool liar to be at work here again.

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haymoni - May 4, 2006 10:09 am (#1420 of 2152)

So let me get this straight - our Ginny was supposed to just sit there pining away for The Boy Who Lived???

Definitely not in her nature.

What if Harry never got a clue???

I don't think that snogging with someone else while waiting for your crush to come to his senses makes you a liar.

Should she have followed him around like Krum's admirers???

That would be way worse.

That is probably where Hermione got the idea. Krum asked her to the ball because she DIDN'T fawn all over him.

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Weeny Owl - May 4, 2006 10:52 am (#1421 of 2152)

Feelings are strange things. In real life it isn't that difficult to love someone and hate someone at the same time. Just ask any woman who's been divorced (moi, for example), and if you can love a man and still hate him, then a teenage girl can certainly give up on someone for the most part and date other boys but still have it in the back of her head that maybe one day it would work out with her ideal guy. If it hadn't, and if they'd never kissed, Ginny would have got on with her life adn still been happy. With Harry, she's just happier.

It doesn't make her a liar. It makes her human. No one I've ever known who feels things deeply can just end those feelings overnight and not have something lingering around.

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Mediwitch - May 4, 2006 7:09 pm (#1422 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I agree with you, Weeny Owl; well said!

If Ginny actually had given up on Harry, people would just say that proved she didn't really love him. If she sat around pining for him, they would say that she was weak and colorless. She tried to move on and make the best of her life; what more can you ask?

Just as in the "real world" (what, HP isn't? ), there are people that some of us like, and yet others can't stand those very same people.

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Mrs. D. - May 5, 2006 2:32 pm (#1423 of 2152)

I don't understand where all the love of Ginny comes from unless people are projecting themselves or their loved ones on to her.

Luna is consistent and real to me. A likeable character if a bit odd.

Ginny is just a step above Dean or Seamus to me. Yes, she has whatever family situations that cause her to be this and that, but I never get any sense of really knowing any of it from her directly. More like I am to infer it or hear it from another character.

If she and Harry end up together off in the sunset happliy ever after, fine. I just hope it is a footnote. I want a story focused on the trio with Snape at his finest.

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Holly T. - May 5, 2006 6:19 pm (#1424 of 2152)

I think Ginny's value to Harry is that she provides him with the opportunity for a normal life. He wants to be a normal person (as normal as wizards are, I guess) with a home and a family, neither of which he has ever had. I like Ginny, though, always have, and have been telling my daughter since book 1 that she and Harry would end up together.

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virginiaelizabeth - May 5, 2006 8:31 pm (#1425 of 2152)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
I like Ginny too. I think she is an intresting character, and that she adds to the story. I like her personality and I think she and Harry are good for each other. Harry needed someone like Ginny to have a romantic relationship with. He never could have gotten that out of Cho, she was too whiney. I am a bit sad that we didn't get to see more of their relationship. Ginny is Harry's escape from seriousness, when he's with her he can just relax, I'm not saying he can't do this with Ron and Hermione, but Harry confides everything with them, but when he's with Ginny, its just casual conversation.

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cindysuewho45 - May 6, 2006 12:13 am (#1426 of 2152)

Hi all, I have liked Ginny from book 2 to date. And each time JKR has put some small part in any of the books about Ginny, if you look at it closely. You will see a larger impact, that it has on the story. Like when Ron tells Ginny that she could go to the party with Harry. Ginny says she can not and why, gets putout and go's down to dinner. To a lot of people, this just means that she wanted to eat, so she left. When in fact it means a lot more! It shows that she was upset, because she would have loved to go with Harry. Also before that, when she is talking to Ron and Harry, and she is smiling. Then she hears that Harry asked Cho to the party and she stops smiling. To some this would mean that she just stopped smiling. But to me it means that she was unhappy or sad about this news. It is all in what you read into the little things as you go. That build into the good stuff. Like Harry and Ginny being in love. When I read the books, I look at it as if this was going on in life, what would I think or feel about this or that. And so far, I've been close to how it has worked out. There is a lot to figure out still, and I love that part too. There will always be some that do not like someone, and there is not a lot you can do to change there minds. And I feel that there are some characters made for you not to like. But for me Ginny is not one of them.

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Lina - May 6, 2006 1:44 pm (#1427 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
When JKR said that Ginny is ideal for Harry, I don't think that she ment that she is a perfect girl who never does anything wrong, just that she fits Harry as a cover could fit a pot. If she is harsh, I agree with Weeny Owl, there are very few characters in the books who aren't. Even Harry, who is shocked by some marauders' actions, is able to be harsh. So I see nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, I see it helping the realistic picture of the kids.

The other problem is that JKR is not the kind of writer who is explaining and describing everything. She likes to give just hints and clues. She might never write explicitly that the bartender at Hog's Head is Aberforth Dumbledore, she might think that she gave us enough hints about that without writing it down. There is so much in the books that can be read between the lines and even more things that can be interpreted in more than one way. That is just something that I like about the Harry Potter series. And I must say that I read enough hints about Ginny that make me feel comfortable about her relationship with Harry.

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haymoni - May 8, 2006 7:57 am (#1428 of 2152)

Harry isn't exactly an ideal. He's a messed-up kid with a lot of issues. So Ginny doesn't have to be perfect to be his "lid".

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Chemyst - May 12, 2006 12:56 am (#1429 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Harry DOES need to talk to Ginny for ME to believe they have some kind of understanding between them, as friends or something more. […] If he can't open up to her, which he does not do… Die Zimtzicke

I am a bit sad that we didn't get to see more of their relationship. virginiaelizabeth

I totally believe the lack of visible relationship is fully plotted and intentional on JKR’s part. It seems she has made a conscious attempt to give us only enough of romance to keep the boarding school setting believable; but does not want such affection to become a dominant arc within Harry's story.

Take, for example, the final sentence of HBP24, just after the kiss that could have lasted for several long moments—or possibly several sunlit days: 'A long walk on the grounds seemed indicated, during which — if they had time — they might discuss the match.' The couple had several hours of 'opening up' that day. In the next chapter we read that Harry was supposed to be studying herbology, 'but in reality reliving a particularly happy hour he had spent down by the lake with Ginny at lunchtime.' There is also a comment that their time together was 'becoming increasingly restricted' as Ginny's O.W.L.s approached; which implies that they had spent much more time together earlier.

I conclude that it is not so much that Harry and Ginny didn't talk during those weeks together, but that JKR did not want to focus on it. She gave us just the bare minimum to arrange a plot point with Harry turning his back on Ginny.

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haymoni - May 12, 2006 4:19 am (#1430 of 2152)

Or...they spent the whole time snogging.

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Solitaire - May 12, 2006 7:05 am (#1431 of 2152)

Harry isn't exactly an ideal. He's a messed-up kid with a lot of issues.

I agree that he is not exactly an ideal. Who is? But as far as being a "messed-up kids with a lot of issues," I disagree. To be sure, he has had to learn to deal with a lot of difficult situations since he entered the Wizarding World.

First, he learned that he'd been lied to his entire life about who he was and what happened to his parents. On top of that, he's had to learn to assimilate into that world while being constantly on the watch for Voldemort, the Wizard who murdered his parents and has been continually trying to murder him. He has not only faced and escaped that same Wizard several times, but he's had to fight off other evil Wizards. He saved Ginny from death and dishonor (being blamed for opening the Chamber and setting the Basilisk loose). He's seen Cedric, Sirius, and Dumbledore killed right before his eyes, and he's had Voldemort--as well as Snape--poking around in his head. I could go on ...

Add to all this and more the fact that he grew up in a home that was, at the very least, emotionally abusive; yet he managed to walk out of it a fairly nice kid. Given what he has had thrown at him in his sixteen years, I think Harry has fielded it all admirably and remained extremely well-grounded--and that includes all the yelling from OotP, which seems understandable in retrospect. He seems to take a lot of what is happening in stride. Harry does not--to me, at least--seem ready for the couch any time soon. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Puck - May 12, 2006 9:51 am (#1432 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I don't think we need to know what Ginny "wants out of life" at this point. She's still only a teenager, so she might not know herself. Really, we know that Harry and Ron want to be aurors, but beyond that, nothing. We don't know who wants to travel, or settle down and start a family. At this point the goal is to get rid of LV, anything beyond that will have to wait for the epilogue.

Plus, just because we don't know what kind of dreams Ginny has for her future, doesn't mean Harry doesn't.

If Ginny seems harsh at times, well it must get old having 6 over-protective brothers watching over your shoulder. I went crazy with just one! I would expect her to be snippy with them, and I don't think that makes her harsh. That said, I wouldn't cross her. (Though I think Hermione is scarier.)

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iloveHarry - May 12, 2006 2:28 pm (#1433 of 2152)

I think that the point of not seeing alot of the relationship in HBP was so that this could be expanded in book 7 and the idea wont be old and tired. I feel that Harry is going to need people who love him around him at the difficult times he has ahead and Ginny will be one of the vital people to fulfil this role along with Hermione and Ron of course!

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Die Zimtzicke - May 12, 2006 5:15 pm (#1434 of 2152)

I think they spent the whole time snogging, too. (The chest monster at work!) He certainly didn't plan on talking much down by the lake. He wanted her when she wasn't acting like she had a crush on hiim anymore. He wanted her when he found out she was snogging someone else. What complicates it for me is that she says she never really got over him and that Hermione implied that if she tried to move on, Harry would notice. I wish she HAD gotten over her crush on him, and we had seen the relationship develop between them as friends and then turn to love. Which I do not personally think it did.

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Holly T. - May 13, 2006 8:04 am (#1435 of 2152)

I think it does develop as friendship--when they get on the train and Harry asks Ginny if they should find seats and she goes off to meet Dean instead he remembers they don't really hang out at school. Yet they've just spent the summer together playing Quidditch and making fun of Fleur. Harry isn't thinking with his chest monster at this point, he's thinking of Ginny as a friend and someone he wants to spend time with.

I don't think Harry notices her just because she's snogging Dean. He realizes that she is someone he wants to spend more time with first.

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Solitaire - May 13, 2006 8:53 am (#1436 of 2152)

The problem with taking the time many people probably feel is needed to show the Harry-Ginny relationship developing in all its stages is that the development of such a story arc would take a tremendous amount of time. We would need to see a lot more of both Ginny's and Harry's other relationships, in order to see a satisfying progression through all of the steps. Frankly, that would be a different book and a considerably different story.

The focus of the books is still Harry, as he is learning all of the skills and abilities needed to assume his place in the Wizarding World and vanquish Voldemort once and for all. By bringing in 1) romances with Cho and Ginny, 2) friendship as well as jealousies with Ron, 3) friendship as well as exasperation with Hermione, 4) problems with teachers and other students, and 5) various other "real life" issues, Jo shows us someone who is trying to grow up and live his life, even though all of this other stuff is swirling around him. The focus must be Harry and his quest, but real life is also happening around him and to him. I think those things help us to remember he is still a normal kid with all the normal kid problems, hassles, joys, etc.

I just tend to employ "willing suspension of disbelief" and accept that things have been going on "off camera" between Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, etc. Just because I was not invited to watch doesn't mean it didn't happen. JM2K, but I hope this makes sense ...

Solitaire

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Puck - May 13, 2006 4:22 pm (#1437 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well said, Solitaire!

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Mrs. D. - May 15, 2006 7:36 am (#1438 of 2152)

Had the funniest dream last night... I was searching Jo's webpage and was reviewing all the easter eggs, one of which was a locket and one of which was an old key. Somehow I had these things as real itty bitty objects like you would find on a charm bracelet (it was a dream afterall) and I got the idea to try and open the little locket with the key. It popped open and a ton of tiny items Ginny had been collecting from Harry through out the years fell out. Things he had touched, pieces of hair, etc. It was so bizarre. I thought, OMG she's a stalker! I couldn't wait to post what I had found, but didn't know if it would be a spoiler and was tormented with wanting to tell and not being able to.

I woke up shortly after and just started to laugh. Hubby thought I was nuts. LOL!

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MickeyCee3948 - May 18, 2006 12:44 pm (#1439 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I am of the mind that just as we have seen Hermoine mature and become a very nice young woman, so shall be see the same with Ginny. Her(Hermoine's)character in the movie(dang contamination) was totally different in GOF than in SS. I believe we can expect the same with Ginny. I always have and always will be totally in love with the character of Ginny that JKR has created. Both in the books and on the screen.

MickeyCee

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Pamzter - May 23, 2006 8:56 pm (#1440 of 2152)

We need to remember that JK's original purpose in writing these stories was to encourage young boys to read, and young boys really don't want to read about yucky love stuff or how a romance builds, they want to get on with the adventure.

Sometimes I wish it was written more for girls -- I would have loved to have seen Hermione and Ginny shop for their Yule Ball dresses!

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Catherine - May 24, 2006 5:29 am (#1441 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
We need to remember that JK's original purpose in writing these stories was to encourage young boys to read, and young boys really don't want to read about yucky love stuff or how a romance builds, they want to get on with the adventure.--Pamzter

I do not recall a quote from JKR in which she stated that her purpose in writing the stories was to get boys to read.

Now, JKR has said that the publisher initally thought she should use her initials because it was feared that boys would not want to read a female author, although she's been revealed as a woman for quite a while, and boys are still reading her like mad!

One wonderful effect of JKR's novels is that they have encouraged reluctant male readers to read and to branch out with other authors' works as well. But I am not sure that this was her purpose.

I do agree that most young male readers that I know would not enjoy watching Hermione and Ginny shop for dress robes!

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Pamzter - May 24, 2006 7:32 am (#1442 of 2152)

I believe the phrase was "the target group of boys." But that's not what I'm thinking about. CoS came out I was a teacher and one of the boys in my class suddenly started putting some effort into learning to read and his mother brought me a magazine article about JK's efforts. Naturally I don't recall the exact one, but it is what introduced me to the series.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2006 5:45 pm (#1443 of 2152)

Jo said when she first started writing, she didn't even consider herself a children's author at all, and was surprised when people called her a children's author.

It was the publisher who classified the books as for children. She accepted that and was delighted when it helped more children read, but that was never her purpose.

See Movie Magic Magazine...May, 2004 issue.

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Magic Words - Jun 1, 2006 2:28 pm (#1444 of 2152)

I just tend to employ "willing suspension of disbelief" and accept that things have been going on "off camera" between Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, etc. Just because I was not invited to watch doesn't mean it didn't happen. -Solitaire

That's what I keep falling back on, too. I wish we had seen more of their relationship developing - over the summer at the Burrow, etc. But I've managed to convince myself that it did happen. I agree, though, that if Harry and Ginny are going to end up together for life, we need to see more development in book 7.

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Solitaire - Jun 3, 2006 11:05 am (#1445 of 2152)

The only problem, Magic, is that there is so much that needs to happen in Book 7. HBP created more questions than it answered for me. I still need more backstory on the Evans sisters, Snape & his family, the Potter lineage ... and I want more on the Dumbledore brothers. I can't help it. I am very nosy and like to know everything! I suppose when it all comes down to the end, it just isn't possible for us to know everything.

If Jo has to choose between the things I've mentioned above and developing the Harry-Ginny relationship, it's no contest for me. I still want to know more about the characters and relationships from the past. I find them more interesting right now.

Solitaire

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 28, 2006 8:46 pm (#1446 of 2152)

All right. I love Ginny too much to allow her to just be casted aside, so I put a lot of thought into taking into account everybody else's opinion here about her importance in the final book and coming up with a way of having her there. I think that this is sort of how the final book will go:

- Harry, Ron, and Hermione will go to the Dursley's. The Dursleys' will be irate, but Ron or Hermione could just curse them until Harry is of wizarding age. - Harry will not avenge himself upon the Dursleys on his birthday but rather just be fed up with them and go. (Something about Petunia's being a Squib or having had a crush on James Potter will factor in and there won't be an unhappy ending between Harry and the Dursleys.) - The trio will go to the wedding. There will be much avoiding of Ginny on Harry's part, but they will eventually be forced to confront due to Ginny's need to be with Harry, no matter the risk. Harry will get upset and repeat again that she simply can't be with him. - (Here's where it gets wild.) The trio will head off to Godric's Hollow after the wedding, but will take some form of transportation other than apparition, due to Harry and Ron's not yet having there licenses. (They'll simply forgo getting licensed to apparate and will save the ability simply for emergencies; they've got other things to worry about.) This will enable Ginny to secretly follow Harry, by perhaps sneaking onto the back seat of the Knight's Bus or something.

I just like Ginny too much to give up on the possibility of her and Harry not living happily ever after in the end. (Jo would make it sound cooler.) So, that last prediction allows for there to be much more focus on the mission at hand (killing Voldemort) rather than the Harry-Ginny relationship.

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Solitaire - Jun 28, 2006 8:47 pm (#1447 of 2152)

Petunia's being a Squib

I thought Jo confirmed that she was not a Squib.

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iloveHarry - Jun 29, 2006 7:00 am (#1448 of 2152)

It would certainly explain all the resentment though.....

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The One - Jun 29, 2006 7:04 am (#1449 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
I also loved the Petunia is a squib theory, but apparently that is not to be.

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 29, 2006 9:41 pm (#1450 of 2152)

Thanks Solitaire. I didn't know Jo had confirmed that Petunia wasn't a Squib. Yet, my major point was that we're going to learn something about Petunia that might ease Harry's hatred of his treatment at the Dursleys' house. But, then again, I tend to be incredibly optimistic about the good in this world. Perhaps Dumbledore and I do have something in common...

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Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:48 am

Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 9:43 pm (#1451 of 2152)
I agree there is something weird about her ... but where to start? The options are so many! LOL

Solitaire
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haymoni - Jun 30, 2006 5:38 am (#1452 of 2152)

I don't think his hatred of his treatment will lessen.

He may be grateful to Pet for finally telling him something about his mother or something Dumbledore may have revealed in a letter or even Snape as "that awful boy".

(Or maybe WE will be grateful for something she reveals!)

But everytime he walks past that cupboard under the stairs it would all come flooding back.

The wretch!!

Um - I just looked up and noticed that this was Ginny's thread.

God help Pet if Ginny ever runs into her!

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Choices - Jun 30, 2006 12:06 pm (#1453 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hmmmmm....Bat Bogey Hex....Loook out Petunia!

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Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 12:39 pm (#1454 of 2152)

LOL Can't you just see Petunia trying to fend off Ginny's Bat Bogey Hex? hehe I'd love tickets to that show!

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 1:08 pm (#1455 of 2152)

Desperate circumstances!

Oh wait, Petunia was ruled out for the magic-late-in-life. Oh well...

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 30, 2006 8:40 pm (#1456 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
By book seven I think we will see a certain maturity, perhaps even too much maturity, on the part of the trio and Ginny. Ginny, sneaking onto the Knight Buss or otherwise sneakily following unseen seems below her level of maturation.

Since OoTP, we have seen Ginny accepting and maturing (accepting Harry's relationship with Cho and offering him help). Yes I agree Harry will want to protect Ginny and keep her out of it and no she won't take that quietly, but I don't think she will sneak surreptitiously.

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 9:58 pm (#1457 of 2152)

I simply can't win with you people. Every time I suggest something, it all just gets shot down. Which probably means I'm wrong about the role that Ginny will play in the final book, but still, I would prefer to not just give in. Somehow, some way, I'll come up with something that will appease all you skeptics; Ginny will play more than a minor role in the end, I know it in my heart.

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Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 10:19 pm (#1458 of 2152)

Tom, anyone who posts on this forum regularly gets shot down sooner or later. We all have our pet theories, and every pet theory has its critics as well as its champions. You are entitled to your opinions--and have the right to post them--just as much as anyone else. As for theories, the only person who really knows what's going to happen is Jo.

Many people disagree with things I say (especially where Snape and Marietta Edgecomb are concerned), and there are a few who continually shoot me down, too. It's okay ... if we all agreed with one another, there wouldn't be much of a forum, wold there? Just put on your Bubblehead Charm and ignore the dungbombs! It's what I do!

Solitaire

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Pamzter - Jun 30, 2006 10:36 pm (#1459 of 2152)

Hey Tom -

At least you get a response! Many times my posts just seem to float on by anyone's notice at all. But I don't take it personally, I just keep plugging away and eventually something gets stirred up.

And, just for the record, I'm a Ginny fan and I expect something to happen with her as well, I just haven't thoroughly thought it through yet.

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Regan of Gong - Jul 1, 2006 1:45 am (#1460 of 2152)

Self declared doctor of everything.
Don't worry, Tom. Remember that JKR was shot down on the Mugglenet forums when she suggested some of her theories. You'll get used to it. Like Pamzter said, you can come up with a brilliant theory, and get shot down, or ignored. Jury's still out on which one's worse...

Since I came here, I've a had a running battle with Choices over almost every theory I post...it's pretty funny, but it doesn't come between us...right?

...right Choices?

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Chemyst - Jul 1, 2006 5:33 am (#1461 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Pamzter is right, Tom; just keep plugging away. (See, you did get noticed, Pamzter!) I do agree: Ginny will play more than a minor role in the end.

I do think Ginny will have an important role in the last book– probably something to do with keeping things together when they're falling apart. It may even involve some real action, but it's more likely to be as a defensive or strategic tactic. Ginny was already a kidnapping victim in CS; and at the end of HBP, Harry was worried that LV might want to again use her as bait. Hopefully JKR considers that a 'been there, done that' thing and takes Ginny a different direction.

The better foreshadowing may be that Ginny was the only one who could reach Harry when he was grieving over Dumbledore at the base of the tower. I'm guessing there will be another "only Ginny" spot in book 7.

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Magic Words - Jul 1, 2006 6:48 am (#1462 of 2152)

I'm beginning to think she won't go with the trio, though I'm less than sure. I do think she'll be present in the final confrontation, at least up until the point where Harry must go on alone (as he did in the first two). But if I'm right in saying they'll spend a lot more time at Hogwarts than Harry anticipates, she can still play a major role.

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Choices - Jul 1, 2006 12:32 pm (#1463 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Regan - "Since I came here, I've a had a running battle with Choices over almost every theory I post...it's pretty funny, but it doesn't come between us...right?

"...right Choices?"

Absolutely right, Regan! :-) We all get shot down from time to time. When I do, I just try to make sure that my next theory is better thought out, better researched, facts checked, canon verified, etc. You learn from your mistakes (and other mistakes, too) and it makes you a better Harry Potter fanatic because you're not likely to make that particular mistake again. The longer you stay here, the more information you pick up and the more you can understand the genius of JKR. I am constantly amazed by the things I learn on this forum every day.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2006 2:57 pm (#1464 of 2152)

Ginny is just too good of a character to leave in a minor role. How or where she fits in I don't know. I hope she isn't a damsel in distress. I love her strength. LPO

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 2, 2006 10:14 pm (#1465 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I agree with Magic Word, Ginny will be athe final confrontation, though I have no idea how she will get there.

Since JK announced that she has written the final chapter and it ends with the word "scar", I have imagined that "scar" will be seen or spoken of, from the point of view of Ginny. IMHO.

We have such varied opinions, but still manage to shoot down and discuss politely.

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 4, 2006 2:01 am (#1466 of 2152)

Hi all, I do not think that Ginny will go with the trio, at all times. But I do feel that we will be seeing her alot more that before. Harry will need to know that she is OK! This could be where Sires mirror comes into play. Harry loves her, he is not just going to run off and not think about her. If Harry will not let himself see or here from Ginny, then he could have a loss in his powers for a bit. Like LV's Mom or Tonks did. Harry may need to keep in touch with Ginny for that reason, as well as to know that she is doing OK. They could talk to each other with the mirrors he would know what was going on and she could give him info. etc.. Also I am a big believer, that Harry will end up at Hogwarts, under cover as a student to look for more Horcruxes at the school. Ginny will play parts at school as well, JKR has said that DD wanted all the houses to come together and work as one. That they would be a unstoppable force, if they worked together. This would mean more things going on at school. I do not see Ginny as a seer, but who knows? I was thinking that she may end up being able to turn herself into a cat, a new pet for Harry. Who knows, maybe not. But with the 7th child power plot and being in love with Harry plot, I just do not see Ginny on the side lines to much of the time.

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Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 11:54 am (#1467 of 2152)

I don't know ... I doubt Harry's powers depend on Ginny. In fact, I think that believing her to be safe and out of harm's way is what will allow him to focus on the task at hand--destroying first the Horcruxes and then Voldemort. If he is too focused on Ginny, I think he will get into trouble.

I also do not understand Ginny turning into a cat to be Harry's pet. She might become an Animagus who takes the form of a cat ... but I can't think it would be as a pet to Harry. It seems more likely to me that she would use her Animagus form to be able to gain entrance to places closed to her as a Witch.

Harry will end up at Hogwarts, under cover as a student

I do not see how Harry can be undercover at Hogwarts. Everyone there will know who he is ... unless you mean he will be pretending to be a student but will really be searching out Horcruxes. However, unless he takes McGonagall into his confidence in this endeavor, I find it hard to believe she would let him skip out on classes and poke around the castle looking for Horcruxes. I do see, however, with Snape out of the way, that it is possible Harry might be able to get his hands back on the potions book ... and he might also be able to have a nice, long look at the things which lurk in the room of requirement. I think that might be quite enlightening.

Solitaire

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2006 2:06 pm (#1468 of 2152)

I like the idea of Harry and Ginny using the two way mirror. Harry needs to go to Grimmauld Place to find the other half to give Ginny. LPO

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 4, 2006 10:19 pm (#1469 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I like the idea of using the two way mirror, but I am not sure it would be Harry and Ginny using it. Some plan that Hermione devises so Ginny-Hermione communicating with the mirror for me, although Harry is heir Sirius' too.

(LPO is your avatar Edinburgh Castle?)

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darien - Jul 5, 2006 3:20 am (#1470 of 2152)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Seeing as "the power the Dark lord knows not" is love, Ginny must be essential to Harry in some way or other, like when Harry defeated Voldemort when he possesed him thinking of Sirius. It must have something to do with his shredded soul that love will destroy him ( maybe a patronus-type charm casted not by a happy memory but one of love?)

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2006 9:17 am (#1471 of 2152)

Ginny and Harry have both "faced" Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort. Love takes many forms. Other couples have defied Voldy and not survived. Harry's feelings for Ron and Hermione have helped him in the past. Maybe his feelings for Ginny will just add to his power. It is part of the transformation Harry must make to face and defeat Voldemort. LPO

(Yes Mrs. Sirius it is)

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Solitaire - Jul 5, 2006 10:26 am (#1472 of 2152)

Darien, I do not think the love that is talked of must necessarily be romantic love, just as Lily's love for Harry was not romantic and Harry's love for Sirius was not romantic. I believe it is Harry's capacity for love in general that Dumbledore always speaks of as being the Power he has which Voldemort knows not.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 10:58 am (#1473 of 2152)

We have no evidence that the two way mirror was fixed, or that it was even repairable. If I had one, I certainly wouldn't give it to Ginny, if I were Harry. I'd give it to someone who could be of some help to me. That's a pretty canonless theory, as theories go, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

And I still think the idea of Ginny being at the final showdown in absolutely horrid. No one else should be there but Harry and Voldemort. The prophecy was about Harry. He's the one who was set apart, and made the marked man. It's his job to do. He needs plenty of support from everyone who knows him, but in the end, I think it should be up to him to do what needs to be done.

If it's "chest monster" love that wins, that diminishes the whole theme of good vs. evil. It's easy to love people who love you. It's more significant if you stand up for what is right, no matter who is involved. Look at the whole thing with Pettigrew. That was a more heroic moment for Harry than anything involving snogging Ginny.

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Choices - Jul 5, 2006 11:01 am (#1474 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Solitaire, but it makes me wonder if maybe one of the reasons that Alice and Frank and James and Lily were able to defy Voldemort three times, is their strong love for each other. Their love united them and made them strong enough to stand up to Voldemort. Just thinking out loud....

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 11:15 am (#1475 of 2152)

If anyone who truly loved anyone could defy Voldemort, we wouldn't have seven books of Harry trying to figure out how to defeat him.

You still would have to exsplain how Lily could go from preferring to date the giant squid in on year, to having that kind of love for James a couple of years later. There's a lot missing there. Just like a lot of the interaction between Harry and Ginny was missing, to alot of fans, to stay on topic, which I fear we are starting to get away from.

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Magic Words - Jul 5, 2006 11:24 am (#1476 of 2152)

And I still think the idea of Ginny being at the final showdown in absolutely horrid. No one else should be there but Harry and Voldemort. The prophecy was about Harry. He's the one who was set apart, and made the marked man. It's his job to do. He needs plenty of support from everyone who knows him, but in the end, I think it should be up to him to do what needs to be done.

To an extent, Die Zimtzicke, you're absolutely right. It comes down to Harry and Voldemort. But if you look at the pattern of the earlier books, Harry's friends have been with him right up until the point where he faces Voldemort. It's like all of JKR's "final showdowns" have two parts. In PS/SS, Ron and Hermione got Harry through six of the seven barriers, then he faced Voldemort alone. In CoS Ron went into the Chamber, and Ginny was present, but Harry still faced Voldemort alone. In GoF it was Cedric who went most of the way. I think the final confrontation will follow a similar pattern: there will be an exciting battle/challenge/journey/whatever, where Ron and Hermione help Harry get right up to the point where he meets Voldemort. Then something will get in the way so he has to face Voldemort alone. But I think Ginny will be there for the first part and she may even be present for the second, but unable to actively help.

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Choices - Jul 5, 2006 12:11 pm (#1477 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I did not say the strong bond of love was the only reason the two couples were able to defy Voldemort three times, I said it was ONE of the reasons. I believe Harry's love for Ginny and his friends will strengthen his resolve to defeat Voldemort - it will not be the only edge he has, but it will be a big help. Harry loves others and Voldemort loves only his own life - I think that will proved to be his downfall. (There is a Bible verse that says to the effect that whoever tries to save his own life, shall lose it. And the very next verse asks....what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, if he loses his soul? Are you listening Voldemort???)

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Solitaire - Jul 5, 2006 12:19 pm (#1478 of 2152)

Perhaps the Power Harry has that Voldemort knows not is ... the love he has for his friends AND the love they have for him. They have already shown that they were willing to fight alongside him in the DoM. Whom does Voldy have who would willingly die for him ... besides Bella, the wildcat? And when push came to shove ... would she really die for him? I can think of a few people who would give it up for Harry.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 5, 2006 12:30 pm (#1479 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well said, Solitaire!!

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2006 2:10 pm (#1480 of 2152)

Solitaire I think with people like Bella it is more of an obsession than love. They are obsessed with and "love" power and the dark arts. I agree the mutual love Harry has with his friends gives them a power that Voldemort cannot begin to comprehend. Harry and Ginny also share a pure untainted love. It is not about power (master/servant) or a certain philosophy (pureblood). LPO

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Solitaire - Jul 5, 2006 2:25 pm (#1481 of 2152)

Yeah ... Bella is just so ... wound up! She seemed more "normal" in Spinner's End than any other time we have seen her, and that's not saying much. BTW, does she even know Voldy is not a pureblood? I know this needs to continue over on her thread, so I'll go there if anyone wants to chase this rabbit.

Solitaire

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 5, 2006 9:18 pm (#1482 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
And I still think the idea of Ginny being at the final showdown in absolutely horrid. No one else should be there but Harry and Voldemort. Die Zimtzicke

Yes, DZ, it has always been just Harry and Lord V at the actual combat. But as Magic Words, has so eloquently pointed out, he never gets there alone. He is delivered to that by point not just by his own wit and cunning but with endless help and support of Ron and Hermione and also Cedric in GOF.

But in this, the final confrontation, that which Harry has and the Dark Lord know not of, we will have to see in abundance. We have seen his love for Sirius, in HBP his love for Ron and Hermione gets him through that last ordeal, his mother's love saved him in PS. We still need to see Harry more. Whether Harry defeats LV and survives or dies, we need to know that he is capable of giving love and receiving love. After he battles, his love must continue. In my opinion Ginny is a good way to see that love never die.

LPO, fond memories that place. Thanks for the view.

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darien - Jul 6, 2006 2:49 am (#1483 of 2152)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Have Harry and LV actually been completely alone at any time? First Quirrel was there. In CoS, Unconscious Ginny was there ( and if we count it, the Basilisk) , In GoF Wormtail and the DEs were there and in OotP Dumbledore and Bellatrix were there.

I don't know if this indicates that someone will be there also in the final battle, or that there will be no-one but Harry and LV and that will make it be the final battle- having no witnesses and same numbers on each side etc...

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haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 5:30 am (#1484 of 2152)

The only way I see Ginny being there is if Voldy kidnapped her and used her as bait.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 6, 2006 8:29 am (#1485 of 2152) [/b]
Haymoni that is what I'm afraid of. I hate to see women put in roles of victims. Ginny is such a strong character I don't want that to happen to her. I hope she can save herself.

Mrs. Sirius I agree. At the end of OoP Harry didn't want to love anyone. He is maturing and will experience different kinds of love. His relationship with Ginny demonstrates that. I like the idea of him surviving, he and Ginny marrying and starting a family! LPO

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Steve Newton - Jul 6, 2006 8:56 am (#1486 of 2152)

Librarian
I think that TomProffitt had it right a while ago. Harry's core group is himself, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, and Ginny. Maybe Lupin.

When any final one on one with Voldemort comes up, Harry will face him alone. All of the others will play important roles getting him there.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 6, 2006 10:52 am (#1487 of 2152)

Yes, that's what I mean. Harry needs the support of everyone who cares about him, not just Ginny, but he has to do this on his own. I think Ginny getting kidnapped is a good possibility, because Harry breaking up with her saying it was to keep her safe is kind of lame, considering no one knows they broke up.

The only problem I have with her being a victim (again) is that I don't see her as having gotten much stronger anyway. She's gotten a little more mature, but she never got over Harry, the way I thought she did. She never really moved on with her life, since she admits she never gave up on him after all, and she still isn't any use in a fight. She wasn't any use in the DoM, and she admitted she would have died without the felix in HBP. She's got her bat bogey thing, but we've never acutally seen it. So the character is a bit static to me.

Kidnapping her would be good drama, though. If it goes that way, it has to be someone close to Harry, but not as close as Ron or Hermione in my opinion.

Maybe the whole marrying and starting a family thing still bothers me because it means Ginny has no other purpose than to be the prize Harry gets for winning. She's the Weasley with a womb, and that's it...the end. That isn't a dramatic ending for me.

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haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 11:09 am (#1488 of 2152)

Kidnapping Ginny would be really creepy.

I wonder what Voldy would say to her?

"You probably think you know me, Ginny, but we've never really met. You knew me as a young lad, full of ideas, about to embark on my great adventure. But now..."

Oh - it's just too creepy to finish.

Maybe he'll have an underling deal with her - Wormtail, perhaps.

Oh, that's even creepier.

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darien - Jul 6, 2006 3:20 pm (#1489 of 2152)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Well he kidnapped her and took her into the Chamber of Secrets when he emerged from the diary if that counts...

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Weeny Owl - Jul 6, 2006 3:55 pm (#1490 of 2152)

I can't see Voldemort even knowing what happened with Diary Tom. Yes, he probably knows that she was the one who opened the Chamber, but he couldn't have been aware of the details or he would already have known Lucius Malfoy had given his diary away.

I don't see Voldemort kidnapping Ginny just because there might not be enough space to write such a scenario. I could see a group of people fighting Death Eaters (similar to what happened at the Department of Mysteries and near the tower at Hogwarts) and someone grabbing Ginny and holding a wand to her head, but other than that, I just can't picture her being a major player in the last book except for bits and pieces here and there.

I also don't see Ginny possibly marrying Harry and having children as her being only a womb for the hero. She's already shown what a spitfire she is, and while she may want to marry him and have a family, she just doesn't seem the type to become nothing more than a womb.

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Catherine - Jul 6, 2006 4:08 pm (#1491 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
I agree that Ginny is more than a womb. For that matter, do we even know that Harry or Ginny have thought about having kids?

I'm not sure that I think the hostility toward Ginny is warranted.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 7, 2006 8:29 am (#1492 of 2152)


I can't see Voldemort even knowing what happened with Diary Tom.


But Voldemort remembered what Harry told Diary Tom. After his return in GoF he knew, that Harry survived because of Lily's sacrifice. And he learned this in CoS, where Harry told him.

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haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 9:10 am (#1493 of 2152)

I thought Ginny told Diary Tom about Harry and his whole saga.

I'm guessing Wormtail filled Voldy in on everything he knew once he found him in Albania.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2006 9:31 am (#1494 of 2152)

Voldemort didn't remember what Harry told Diary Tom.

Voldemort figured it out himself. He even said that he'd forgotten old magic, and that was his mistake. During the whole graveyard scene he never once mentioned anything that happened in the Chamber or during Harry's second year.

As haymoni said, Wormtail would have been the one to fill him in on what had been happening.

Dumbledore said that Voldemort didn't know when a Horcrux was destroyed, so if he didn't know that, and if he had no idea during all of GoF and OotP that the diary had been destroyed, then he learned all of that from other sources.

There is no indication anywhere that I can find that Voldemort knew exactly what happened with Ginny.

To add to what I said above, if Voldemort had known all along what happened to his diary, I seriously doubt if he'd have told Lucius Malfoy that he expected better service in the future. If he had known then that his diary was destroyed, I'm sure Lucius would be the recipient of a Cruciatus Curse that would probably land him in St. Mungo's with Neville's parents.

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Laura W - Jul 8, 2006 2:21 am (#1495 of 2152)

Weeny Owl, from HBP, Chapter Horcruxes, p.474 (Raincoast):

(Dumbledore to Harry), "Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss ... but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

And on p.475: "Ah, poor Lucius ... what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain ..."

"Forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy"? We all know what that means. (shudder) My guess is that Malfoy, Sr. was punished (crucio'd) plenty for the diary incident, but then given another chance (ie - getting V the prophecy) to redeem himself.

Laura

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Weeny Owl - Jul 8, 2006 8:59 am (#1496 of 2152)

Thank you, Laura. I had forgotten that "forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy" line.

So if force was needed, Voldemort wouldn't be aware of what happened with Ginny, and that would mean that she wouldn't be a target any more than anyone else in Harry's life.

I don't think Harry's thought about it much, but the Weasleys are targets anyway because of their so-called blood-traitor status for one, and wtih Molly's brothers definitely fighting on the right side in the first war, chances are any Weasley would be a target.

The six students from the Department of Mysteries are probably targets as well, so that could put Ginny in more danger, and with Ron being Harry's best friend and Ginny being his girlfriend for a time, that adds a bit to Ginny possibly being a target.

I don't see JKR using another "kidnap someone Harry cares about to lure him into a trap" plot, but since Sirius was never actually kidnapped, that could change things.

I could see it working with Ginny being the target for a number of reasons, but I really don't see JKR going in that direction with all she has yet to explain.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 8, 2006 11:57 am (#1497 of 2152)

Voldemort wants Harry. I don't think Voldemort will fool around with targeting other people. He will just go after Harry. Ginny may get in the way and become a victim of war. LPO

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Anna L. Black - Jul 10, 2006 7:26 am (#1498 of 2152)

I don't think that Ginny will be kidnapped in book 7, because it would be almost an exact repetition of what we saw in CoS. If someone will be kidnapped, it'll probably be Ron - he is, as we know from GoF, the thing that Harry misses most. I think that didn't change in HBP - Harry felt he needed Ron's consent to be with Ginny in the first place. It might have changed, but I think that from what we know so far, Harry is much more attached (not romanticaly, of course) to Ron than he is to Ginny. Which is perfectly understandable, of course (It's six years compared to about six weeks...).

I'm actualy surprised at myself for writing the above - I was all for Harry/Ginny for a long time, and now I'm beginning to think that this relationship is not the important one in Harry's life. It could have been, but he chose not to make it such (I mean - he doesn't really object when Ron and Hermione say they will go with him - is prepared to accept their sacrifice, but not Ginny's...)

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 10, 2006 12:50 pm (#1499 of 2152)

I saw in the July 14 the issue of Entertainment magazine that they thought it was more likely that Ginny dies than Ron. They did an article giving odds on different people. Ron was 20-1, and Ginny was 6-1. Hagrid was 3-2, Hermione was 50-1, Snape was 2-1 and Harry was 9-2. Voldemort had even odds on dying.

Since I think either Harry OR Ginny might die, it was interesting to see that in a mainstream magazine. Gave me some hope of being right...or at least showed me I wasn't alone.

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Soul Search - Jul 10, 2006 2:05 pm (#1500 of 2152)

How ever would someone handicap a work of fiction?

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1501 to 1550)

Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:49 am

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2006 2:41 pm (#1501 of 2152)
I think it would be funny if Jo placed bets on who dies. She could give her winnings to her charities.

I hope Ginny makes it. She is one of my favorite characters. LPO

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Regan of Gong - Jul 11, 2006 3:58 am (#1502 of 2152)

Self declared doctor of everything.
Wouldn't that be illegal? Matchfixing perhaps?

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 11, 2006 8:41 am (#1503 of 2152)

The betting got so high in Britain on HBP that it got investigated, and I think stopped. They noticed a lot of people around the town where they were printing the books had bet heavily on Dumbledore dying. Huge amounts of money were involved, if I remember right.

Maybe they base the betting on six people saying Ginny dies for every one who does not die?

I don't know. I just hope she dies. It would be so dramatic.

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 2, 2006 1:34 pm (#1504 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
Well, I wonder what the odds are on Ginny and Harry BOTH dying?

I've no idea where the bookmakers get their probability information froms when they set odds, apart from the basis of trying to make as much money out of people betting as they can!

Personally I think anyone that Harry loves is a candidate for dying in Book 7 - I'm surprised at the odds on Hermione; but then apart from a few near misses has she ever come as close to dying as Ginny or Ron? She was in pretty bad shape after the MoM battle but that's the worst we've seen her, and it wasn't given that much coverage. I think Ginny has more of a role to play as strong, supporting female in Book 7 - somewhat akin to Hermione's role so far.

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Solitaire - Aug 2, 2006 2:11 pm (#1505 of 2152)

Well, neither Ginny nor Hermone was in very good shape in CoS. Hermione had been petrified and Voldemort was sucking the life out of Ginny.

Solitaire

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 2, 2006 2:36 pm (#1506 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
I dunno, maybe it's just my perception of it, but I didn't get the feeling that being petrified was as bad as being possessed by Diary Tom. I mean, throughout the book it was all a case of waiting for the cure for petrified patients to be ready - very bad shape certainly, but not potentially fatal; and Harry and Ron, although clearly deeply upset by Hermione being petrified, were not apparently totally devastated or as distraught as they were when Ginny was kidnapped. Same deal with Hermione's injuries after MoM - she had to taken many different kinds of potion, but was basically going to be OK.

When everyone saw Diary Tom's final message on the wall after he took Ginny down to the Chamber, everyone reckoned she was dead, or close to death. They all reacted as you'd expect there.

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Solitaire - Aug 2, 2006 2:57 pm (#1507 of 2152)

Well, this is Ginny's thread, so I won't elaborate here ... but Harry does love Hermione--not romantic love, of course, but the deep love of a true friend.

Solitaire

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 3, 2006 12:09 am (#1508 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
He loves them both in different ways - my point is just that, from the way it's been written or the way I've seen the story so far, Ginny has been in greater danger at certain points than Hermione. This is reflected in teh reactions of those around her, and I think it foreshadows her role in Book 7.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 8:54 am (#1509 of 2152)

I'm still interested in that flowery scent Harry has noticed when he is around Ginny. I do not think she would have to use a potion on him to make or even to keep him in love with her ... but I can't help thinking she used one to get his attention properly focused on her!

More importantly, though, I believe that Ginny is going to set in motion some circumstance that endangers Harry and, by extension, Ron, who will feel it his brotherly duty to protect her. She is positively hard-headed, and I seriously doubt she will take no for an answer when it comes to following the Trio and attempting to fight with them. This, coupled with her previous possession by Voldemort, could make her a pawn in his attempt to take down Harry. Again, JM2K ...

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 3, 2006 9:00 am (#1510 of 2152)

Some fans think she used a scintilation solution to make herself more popular, but I'm not sure if that's a viable theory or not. It's based on the fact that some things that get short mentions turn out to be importantlater.

If she's a pawn in book 7 it's not going to be because she is evil, or goes traitor in my opinion. It's because she's impulsive and may put herself in a postion to be used again.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 9:02 am (#1511 of 2152)

That's what I mean. I am not suggesting she is evil.

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 3, 2006 2:38 pm (#1512 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
Well, when Harry first smells the Amortentia in Slughorn's Potions classroom, he smells treacle tart, polished broom handles and 'something flowery he seemed to remember smelling at the Burrow'. Ginny was still going out with Dean during the summer, and although things got rocky with Dean later, she was obviously getting along very well with him earlier in the school year - especially when Harry and Ron caught her snogging Dean after Quidditch practice!

Given that, I'm inclined to think the flowery scent is just Ginny's perfume, and no more than that.

I'd have to agree with the point that she's unlikely to take a back seat in the upcoming battles, and that this could imperil Harry and Ron.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 3, 2006 9:25 pm (#1513 of 2152)

I'm still interested in that flowery scent Harry has noticed when he is around Ginny. I do not think she would have to use a potion on him to make or even to keep him in love with her ... but I can't help thinking she used one to get his attention properly focused on her! Solitaire

That made me think of Mrs.Weasley telling Ginny and Hermione about using a love potion when she was a girl.Maybe Ginny payed close attention.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 9:45 pm (#1514 of 2152)

I, too, thought rather a lot of attention was given to love potions in the beginning. Of course, Ron fell prey to Romilda's attempt to snag Harry. Still, I wonder whether Ginny might not have also used one with Harry, although with a bit more subtlety than Romilda exercised. Just speculating ...

Solitaire
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Eponine - Aug 4, 2006 5:45 am (#1515 of 2152)

It seems to me that Ginny was perfectly happy with Dean for quite a while after Harry was attracted to her. She's not likely to have used a potion to attract Harry while she was still content dating Dean. She even stayed with Dean while they were having problems. If she was trying to snag Harry with a potion, she would probably have dumped Dean the minute things started getting rocky.

Personally, I think Harry just started to like Ginny once he actually got to know her. He'd never spent that much time with her, and it's not unheard of for a 16 year old boy to suddenly develop feelings for someone.

But this isn't the ship thread, so I'm stopping here. =)

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darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:41 am (#1516 of 2152)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
I dont know if anyone said this before but I think that maybe Ginny can be a clue to Voldemort "then I started pouring a bit of my soul back into her"- Tom Riddle CoS; and he alrerady qualified Ginny's secrets as her soul so maybe he had to feed her with a few of his secrets which can be recovered through Legilimency as she does not remember them herself.

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haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 12:12 pm (#1517 of 2152)

I am guessing that she would only know the secrets of a 16-year-old Tom Riddle.

He may have made the Diary Horcrux right away after Myrtle was killed, but he may not have considered making more until he asked Slughorn about them in Year 6.

I guess what I am saying is unless we had a better timeline and better knowledge as to how a Horcrux is made (how long after the murder can it be created), it is really hard to know just how much info was made available to Ginny via Voldy.

It does seem odd that any memories of what he wrote to her or what he did when he was "occupying space" would just disappear because the diary was destroyed.

She may not be aware of what is there.

I feel kind of creepy though, having someone probing Ginny's mind looking for traces of Voldemort.

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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 5:08 pm (#1518 of 2152)

I still think Ginny's "romances" were a way to get Harry to notice her. They worked, too. He was a lot more interested in her once he saw her with Dean. As to not dropping Dean right away ... that makes sense. I believe she wanted to increase the strength of Harry's feelings, and you must admit that he finally got the point that if he did not act quickly, someone else would ask her out, and then he would be out in the cold again! I guess it depends on how you interpret her actions.

Solitaire

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 5, 2006 12:00 am (#1519 of 2152)

Hi all, I absolutely do not believe that Ginny ever used a love potion on Harry. The flower sent that he smells is just the sent that Ginny uses. If she was going to use a potion to get Harry, she would of had him along time ago. I would think that being as good as she is she could have wiped one up with no problems or bought one in town, or mail order. Yes, Ginny's "romances" were a way to get Harry to see her as not just Ron's little sister. But a young woman, who was up to holding hands etc.. She needed Harry to see her as a equal. And picking one of Harry's roommates was the best thing she could of done.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:31 pm (#1520 of 2152)

The flowery scent may well have been her perfume ... but she was awfully interested in those love potions at F&G's store. I am not suggesting she used one as an ongoing thing to keep Harry under her spell. I simply believe she wanted to "readjust" Harry's perception of her as being more than just Ron's sister. I also agree that she would not have needed to feed Harry anything (although she certainly could have done; he would never have suspected her) ... I believe she might have created a potion that she wore as a perfume.

Solitaire

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Pamzter - Aug 5, 2006 1:07 pm (#1521 of 2152)

Since she was consulting with Hermione about her feelings for Harry, I believe that if Ginny had considered a love potion, Hermione would have talked her out of it.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 1:12 pm (#1522 of 2152)

What if Ginny didn't tell her? She has known Hermione long enough to know how she would feel about that. Until Jo dashes my theory on the rocks, I suppose I will continue to believe it.

Solitaire

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haymoni - Aug 5, 2006 5:49 pm (#1523 of 2152)

Looking at love potions and actually using them are 2 different things.

Did Ginny know the results of Romilda's potion? If she did, she may have been horrified at what would have happened if she had tried to use one on Harry.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 6:13 pm (#1524 of 2152)

I suspect there are different kinds of love potions.

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 6, 2006 10:47 am (#1525 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
Even if Ginny was using a subtler love potion than Romilda, how is it that Harry was even able to contemplate breaking up with her?

I have to reiterate my point above: Ginny may have been hoping Harry would notice her, but she seemed pretty happy with Dean during the summer and the early part of the school year. As Harry and others (including Ron, Fred and George, Pansy Parkinson) noticed, Ginny is pretty popular with the boys! She doesn't need to use love potions on anyone.

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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 1:35 pm (#1526 of 2152)

You're certainly welcome to that opinion, Fawkes Egg. I just don't agree, and that's okay, too!

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2006 5:06 pm (#1527 of 2152)

I can't get behind any love potion theory, much as I loathe Ginny.

But what if Ginny used something like a scintillation solution, to make herself more popular? I've said that before. She went from being so lonely she was talking to a book in CoS, to being the belle of Hogwarts in HBP. A lot of stuff that got mentioned early on has come back. Why not that?

As for her being happy with Dean over the summer, when would she have seen him? He's a muggle. I doubt if she went to visit him or he went to visit her. We don't even know if they were actually together yet. She only said at the end of OotP that she had CHOSEN him.

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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 6:16 pm (#1528 of 2152)

LOL Die Zimtzicke! I thought sure YOU would agree with me! Just kidding! A scintillating solution works for me--I'm not picky! You see, I think she was using those boys to get Harry's attention. And as I said, I don't think she had to use anything once she did get it.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 7, 2006 2:13 pm (#1529 of 2152)

I'm a crabby old lady...but not totally unreasonable. LOL!

I agree she was using the other boys to get Harry's attention. She said she never gave up on him. That's canon. And she said Hermione told her Harry might notice her if she was more herself, and that she had listened to that. (Although since we got a different Ginny in every book. I don't know which self she was trying to be!) That's canon, too.

What is also canon is that we never heard of Ginny being especially popular or pretty before HBP. If she was going to be shown as a strong, fiesty girl, I wish she'd spent more time finding out who she was and what she really wanted, and not turned into a girl who looked as if she had to have a boyfriend all the time. And I don't want to hear about how many 14 year old girls have steady boyfriends. Not all of them HAVE to have them to be well-rounded people. Why could't she and Harry have finally talked for a paragraph or so about the CoS incident for example, so we could have seen him admiring her for how she was dealing with her issues?

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Mediwitch - Aug 7, 2006 2:23 pm (#1530 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
They did talk about what it was like to be possessed by Lord Voldemort in OoP (p. 499-500, Scholastic Hardbound) for nearly a page. I just don't think we're going to see the nitty gritty of it because Jo is not writing romance novels.

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Marie E. - Aug 7, 2006 8:09 pm (#1531 of 2152)

Also in OoP, Harry and Ginny have a conversation in the library that I thought foreshadowed a little of the HBP romance. Nothing especially romantic happens but it was just the two of them talking casually together and they seemed pretty comfortable. Hang on, I'll get the pages...here we go, it's in Chapter 29 pp 654-655. Anyway, I always thought that we were seeing "real" Ginny there.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 9:44 pm (#1532 of 2152)

Hi all, I love that part in the library!!!!! And I also wanted to say that Ginny was never a quite child. Ron, Fred and George have all said that Ginny has always been talkative and well-rounded so to say. Ginny was just unable to be this way around Harry, because of how much she liked him. But was very popular at school from the start. I feel that, it did not just start being that way.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2006 8:00 am (#1533 of 2152)

I love the library scene, too, because it showed how let down Harry was by what he had seen his dad do, but he never confided in Ginny about what was really bothering him. He just said he wanted to talk to Sirius, so I don't see it as a deep conversation.

What let ME down was the "I forgot" thing. That was really insufferable of Harry.

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Mediwitch - Aug 8, 2006 2:56 pm (#1534 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Die Zimtzicke: What let ME down was the "I forgot" thing. That was really insufferable of Harry.

I would agree with that. Harry definitely suffers from an inability to empathize at times. That must have made Ginny feel really horrible. I love her answer though, "Lucky you".

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TheSaint - Aug 8, 2006 4:41 pm (#1535 of 2152)

As the one nearest and dearest to me said...

Harry did have his own issues going on both then and now. Forgive the man if he is a bit too distracted to remember.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2006 8:56 pm (#1536 of 2152)

No, I won't forgive him. It's the most important experience the two of them have been through together. It affected both of their lives in an indelible way. I still think him saying he forgot it was inexcusable. And as soon as possible, he put it out of his head again. He has never expressed any interest in how she felt afterwards, or how she's been coping. He didn't take the time to comfort her coming out in CoS; he just rushed her along as she cried. He accepted that she was "perfectly happy" once she was off the hook for petrifying all those people and strangling all of those roosters. And once he knew he was not possessed in OotP, (at that time) it didn't matter to him any more, either.

How can they supposedly be so close (I say supposedly because I don't buy it for a minute) and NEVER seriously discuss such a huge shared event?

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Solitaire - Aug 8, 2006 9:42 pm (#1537 of 2152)

He accepted that she was "perfectly happy" once she was off the hook for petrifying all those people and strangling all of those roosters. And once he knew he was not possessed in OotP, (at that time) it didn't matter to him any more, either.

You know, Die, I think you are being rather hard on Harry. First of all, you don't really know that either of those things is true. Second, Harry is 12 when the CoS thing happened and 15 when Ginny reminded him of it. Given what happened to him during the course of the year and that horrible night in the DoM, I can't help thinking Harry had other things on his mind. He's still a kid, remember, and he just saw his godfather murdered. He is in shock, and he is grieving. I can forgive him for not seeking out Ginny to discuss her possession in the aftermath of what happened. I'm sure he will talk to her about it again, before the series is over.

Even though Harry is older than Ginny, he has been in the Wizarding World fewer years than she, and he has had a target on his head since the day he entered it. Harry's crises are different than Ginny's crisis. She had a horrid experience in her first year--which Harry shared--so I am sure she probably has relived it all and examined it in her mind.

With Harry, these crises keep happening, each one different than the previous one. I'm not sure he has ever really stopped to evaluate each experience--partly because he is usually in shock, but mainly because he no sooner finishes with one thing than another is coming at him full bore. Yes, he relives things in his nightmares ... but that is different than actively evaluating it and looking for clues. Besides, how often has Ginny approached him to discuss her experiences with Voldemort? Maybe Harry thinks she would prefer to forget it, given her "Lucky you" comment.

It is also important to remember that Harry has not had the benefit of being raised in a loving family or having a mom to teach him how to share what he is thinking about or even interact with girls. Given the upbringing he has had, I think he does pretty well.

Solitaire

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Hoot Owl - Aug 8, 2006 9:57 pm (#1538 of 2152)

Teacher
In the Chamber of Secrets, Harry was a 12yr old boy who had received little if any comforting since left on the Dursley,s doorstep. He had just killed a basilisk with a sword, vanquished Riddle,and came within seconds of death. He was a bit distracted.

COS Scholastic Paperback edition pg 408-409. Shaking all over, Harry pulled himself up. His head was spinning as though he'd just traveled miles by Floo Powder.

Then came a faint moan from the end of the Chamber. Ginny was stirring. As Harry hurried toward her, she sat up.

"It's alright, said Harry, holding up the diary, and showing Ginny the fang hole. "Riddle's finished. Look! Him and the basilisk. C'mon Ginny, let's get out of here-"

Sounds like he at least tried to reassure her that she was safe. He could not tell her she would not be expelled, that seemed to be her fear at this point.

In OoP he regretted forgetting about her being possessed. That was what brought him out of his funk, forgetting Ginny had problems too. He turned to face her immediately and applogises and "he meant it!" This was the first time he had looked anyone in the eye since St Mungo's.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 9, 2006 4:17 pm (#1539 of 2152)

I don't think Harry fully understood what being possessed meant until St. Mungos. He had no frame of reference to help or comfort Ginny. He was totally incapable of comforting Cho over Cedric. He can barely handel his own emotions much less comfort someone else. Ginny also had a family to turn to for support. After Harry and Ginny became friends they had many other things to think about. LPO

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 9, 2006 10:34 pm (#1540 of 2152)

Hi all, I too feel that at the time (CoS) Harry himself never being comforted, did not know how to comfort someone else. And like others have said alot was going on in his life for someone so young at the time. I feel that he was truly sorry for not remembering. And I also believe that Ginny has long sense forgiven Harry for anything like that.

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Hoot Owl - Aug 10, 2006 12:38 pm (#1541 of 2152)

Teacher
Edited Aug 10, 2006 1:43 pm
We also do not know what they talked about during their time as a couple. I am sure most of it was the usual teenagers in love stuff, but some had to be serious. Remember during their parting scene, Ginny calling Voldemort by his name, Harry did not react to that. Harry always reacts to someone doing that for the first time. This must not have been the first time they talked about LV.

Just my opinion of course.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 8:29 pm (#1542 of 2152)

If it's not in there, and we didn't see it, you can't prove it happened.

And as far as I'm concerned, if I couldn't read it, it didn't happen. They therefore didn't do any talking that I didn't see. At least I have the comfort of knowing that's canon when they went down to the lake...he said he didn't plan on talking to her unless they had time after doing other things..

Ginny had already called Voldemort the Dark Lord in her Valentine after all, so it wasn't that big of a step to use his name, in my opinion.

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Solitaire - Aug 10, 2006 8:43 pm (#1543 of 2152)

They therefore didn't do any talking that I didn't see.

Well, they apparently spent a lot of time together, at the end of the year, that was not really recorded ... only referenced. Presumably they talked a little during those times ... even if we didn't get to read their conversations.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 8:47 pm (#1544 of 2152)

Maybe, but as far as I'm concerned, we can't say, "I know they had to have talked about whatever" because we do not know that and have no way of knowing that. Anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, so I can't base any theories on anything I didn't see on the page.

That's what I mean.

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Mediwitch - Aug 10, 2006 8:57 pm (#1545 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I guess that would also mean that they didn't do anything else, either, because we never saw much of their relationship on the page.

"he said he didn't plan on talking to her unless they had time after doing other things"

Note the word "plan". Doesn't mean it happened; lots of Harry's plans don't come off the way he hopes they will. We don't really know what happened at all, one way or another. If I want to read a romance novel, I'll go read Nicholas Sparks or Diana Gabaldon or someone else. I'm not worried about whether or not I read the details of the romances in J. K. Rowling.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 9:14 pm (#1546 of 2152)

Re: "I guess that would also mean that they didn't do anything else, either, because we never saw much of their relationship on the page."

You said it; I didn't this time, even though that's exactly how I feel! LOL! But seriously, we were NOT talking about the romance. This is NOT the shipping thread. We were talking about the fact that they did simply not discuss a serious, life altering experience that they had both shared...the CoS incident, which has been used in some places to show a connection between Harry and Ginny.

Either they have posssesion in common, or they don't. It seems to be okay to say they do, but then forgive Harry for forgetting about and never bringing up again, something that seems so vital. He never even discussed it with her after he actually HAD been possesed.

I don't know why.

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Mediwitch - Aug 10, 2006 9:38 pm (#1547 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
But that's actually my point. You said, "He never even discussed it with her after he actually HAD been possesed." This is where I disagree: we don't know that, because there is nothing in canon that says that Harry never talked to Ginny about being possessed by Voldemort. Just as one side of the argument can't prove they DID discuss it, the other side can't prove they DIDN'T. There is nothing in canon to prove/disprove either opinion.

This is the Ginny thread, though, and discussing any aspect of Ginny's role in the books is OK, I assume.

Either they have posssesion in common, or they don't.It seems to be okay to say they do, but then forgive Harry for forgetting about and never bringing up again, something that seems so vital. He never even discussed it with her after he actually HAD been possesed.

Well, I'm not sure how Harry discussing the possession experience with Ginny or not changes whether they have it in common, so I'll skip over that. Harry is not known for being a stellar communicator (too bad, but I think it does make him a realistic character). I think this is why some people are not surprised that we don't see him talking to Ginny about the experience, even though she is the only one of his friends who has had the same experience.


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Chemyst - Aug 11, 2006 3:53 am (#1548 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
He never even discussed it with her after he actually HAD been possesed.
I don't know why.

Well, I don't think that is something Harry would want to talk about; especially with a girl he might want to get to know better in a different way. It wouldn't be healthy to build a relationship with a life-partner that is based on a comparison of notes about how evil a psychopath has been. Besides, it is more of a mid-life reassessment topic, not a young hero finding his place in the world topic.

It serves the plot to say just enough so that we readers understand Harry realizes Ginny knows the enormity of what he's facing. For now, that is sufficient.

And what if they did discuss it endlessly and bond over that shared experience? It would be horrible for Ginny to wake up someday, surrounded by a gaggle of toddlers and babies, living her mother's life, and realize that all she has in common with her husband is that they were both victims of Voldemort. From her interviews it is obvious JKR doesn't want to go there. And when the canon is finished, we should see that.

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haymoni - Aug 11, 2006 5:43 am (#1549 of 2152)

Oh, please!! They are 15 & 16 years old!!

Who has big, deep conversations about anything, much less being possessed by some awful, terrible person, when you can be snogging??

Sheesh!!

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Hoot Owl - Aug 11, 2006 9:34 am (#1550 of 2152)

Teacher
Edited Aug 11, 2006 10:58 am
If the standard is "If it is not written out it didn't happen." Then all Harry and Ginny did was take a long walk, and after that talked about the match! At least on the afternoon of the kiss. She also kissed him good night once. That is what is in the book.

Oh, they also spent one lunch time by the lake, and teased Ron about an imaginary tattoo to Hermione's delight!

IMHO we can infer some things. The possibility that they spent SOME time talking is at least as valid as the assumption that they never talked.

I think in Book 7 we will out that Ginny has some insights and knows things about Harry that no else does. Such as what really happened under that lake! Or the cupboard under the stairs.

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1551 to 1600)

Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:51 am

Hoot Owl - Aug 11, 2006 11:38 am (#1551 of 2152)
Teacher
The theory that Ginny is evil because she rhymed "blackboard" with " Dark Lord." Does that mean Trelawney and the prophesies are evil? They refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord also.

Ginny was only 11 and probably writing her first Valentine's Day card. She did not have that much time to work on it. Lockhart only announced the deliveries at breakfast and she managed a card, poem and delivery by late afternoon. Just when she would be passing Harry in the corridor, bright girl!!

Too bad she misjudged Harry's reaction to receiving one in front of her. Probably thought he got hundreds of them. She did not know that was his first and so far only Valentine.

CoS pg302; Hot all over at the thought of being given a valentine in front of a line of first years, which happened to include Ginny Weasley, Harry tried to escape.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 11, 2006 4:36 pm (#1552 of 2152)

Reagarding this statement: "But that's actually my point. You said, 'He never even discussed it with her after he actually HAD been possesed.' This is where I disagree: we don't know that, because there is nothing in canon that says that Harry never talked to Ginny about being possessed by Voldemort"

I'm saying I didn't see it so it's not there for me. It's easier to believe something doesn't exist if you've never seen it. It's harder (for me anyway) to believe something happened that isn't shown. Which is why I think Ginny Weaslsey is a waste of paper. So much about her HAS to be inferred, because it is not shown. If he talked to her about something that important, whey not mention it? I agree that they probalby spent most of their time snogging. That's all she's good for...a bit of normal teenaged life before he gets back to business. He certainly does not tell her anything important, and he knows being with her is like living someone else's life. He says that.

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Mediwitch - Aug 11, 2006 8:25 pm (#1553 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Well, Die Zimtzicke, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I like Ginny. I think she's funny, sassy, clever; sometimes she might fly off the handle, but that makes her real. She is a teenage girl! I think we do have to make inferences in Jo's books; Harry-vision just doesn't see everything, and the books are pretty long* already without adding every detail of Harry's every minute with Ginny (or anyone else, for that matter).

*Not that I'd complain if the books were longer, mind.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 12, 2006 1:41 am (#1554 of 2152)

Hi all, Well Die Zimtzicke, you can feel that way if you want to, I on the other hand do not feel that Ginny is a waste of paper. And now that I think of it , you must not think so ether, because you have spent alot of time and paper/space talking about her. I feel that Ginny is a fun and needed addition to Harry's life. I also wish that Harry would talk to Ginny about his trip with DD to find the Horcruxes. Because Ginny may remember to tell him that the locket is at number 12 GP. She saw it that day, the same day that Ginny had to close that box, that was putting everyone else to sleep. Ron, Hermione and Harry all saw it too. But not one of them have thought of it yet. Also DD told Harry to tell Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes, because he felt that, not telling them, would be unfair. That they needed to know what was going on with Harry so that they could be prepared for what could happen. I believe DD said something like, your doing no favor to your friends by not telling them.???? I will have to go back and look it up! I believe that if Harry felt Ok, about telling Ginny or someone else, like Lupin etc. etc. And the trust was there and he was not being over protective. DD would have told him to go for it. I'm sure that opinions will very.

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Chemyst - Aug 12, 2006 4:48 am (#1555 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Die Zimtzicke wrote:

It's harder (for me anyway) to believe something happened that isn't shown.
Which is why I think Ginny Weaslsey is a waste of paper.

My opinion is that if JKR didn't "waste some paper" on Ginny in books 1–6, then when the canon of Book 7 is published, we'd be screaming, "No fair! Rowling just conjured a girl for Harry from thin air!"

We first saw Ginny waiting at the train station and watching as the Hogwarts express took Harry away. Metaphorically, she is still doing that at the end of HBP; being left behind, watching Harry go on to what he thinks he must do. Ginny has always been a waiting-in-the-wings character.

I'll give you this, Die Zim— if Ginny is still waiting for Harry at the end of Book 7, then I'll agree that paper was wasted and trees were unnecessarily sacrificed. But as for now, I think the lumberjacks have job security.

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Regan of Gong - Aug 12, 2006 2:55 pm (#1556 of 2152)

Self declared doctor of everything.
"Because Ginny may remember to tell him that the locket is at number 12 GP."

As likely as it sounds, this still may not be the case.

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Fawkes Egg - Aug 12, 2006 4:17 pm (#1557 of 2152)

Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
As far as Harry not comforting Ginny, or being forgetful of what she's been through, I agree with the comments that he's (1) a teenage boy and (2) is too busy staggering from one crisis to another to deal with his own feelings, never mind someone else's.

But when Ginny and Harry meet Ron after getting out of the Chamber of Secrets, Ron is full of questions and Harry says, "I'll explain when we get out of here." He gives Ginny a sideways glance at this point.

Ron's still asking questions, but Harry "didn't think it was a good idea to tell Ron who'd been opening the Chamber yet, not in front of Ginny." (Page 238, UK paperback edition) Then when Harry's explaining everything to Dumbledore, McGonagall and the Weasleys, he tries to avoid implicating Ginny:

(page 242): "He had so far avoided mentioning Riddle's diary - or Ginny...What if they expelled her?...How could they prove it had been he [Riddle] who'd made her do it all?"

Based on the above, I think Harry is capable of empathising with others even at difficult moments, but given his upbringing and all he's had to go through himself, plus his age, he's bound to be a little lax with that at times.

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The One - Aug 12, 2006 5:27 pm (#1558 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
Yarry is able to empathising with others in many situations. But he has experienced to many crisis to worry much about passed crises of others.

Since Ginny was possesed by Tom Riddle Harry has experienced one assumed murderer comming for him, with all the troubles that made, the GoF incident with the results that had for his image at school, Voldemort's return and attempt to kill Harry, the death of a felllow student, the Ministry trying to convince people he is insane and the hostility from Umbridge.

If Ginny had been in trouble in OotP I am sure he would have been empathising, but Ginny's problems from two years back is simply no longer relevant to him. To much have happened in the mean time.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 13, 2006 8:08 pm (#1559 of 2152)

Just because I have spent a lot of time and space talking about Ginny doesn't mean anything in particular. You don't have to like every character you try to figure out, by any means. And I'm seriously trying to figure out why Ginny is so polarizing. So many fans either love her or hate her and to me she's such a minor character and so poorly written that I'm fascinated that she inspires such interest.

If Harry cares about her so much, I think he should have at least admitted to her that he might not be coming back to school. She deserved to know that much, in my opinion. And he isn't even interested in seeing her one more time during his last golden day before he goes on his quest. He reserves that entirely for Ron and Hermione, and that is confirmed by Jo who said in NY that Harry has to tackle his quest alone, but that he will have the help of his two sidekicks. (I'm paraphrasing yes; I don't have the interview where I am.) He doesn't need Ginny anymore. He's back to the way he was in OotP when he still thought she was too little to help him. If she's really his equal, why is that?

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Chemyst - Aug 14, 2006 4:39 am (#1560 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
He doesn't need Ginny anymore.
Curiously, I'd be more inclined to say, "He doesn't need Ginny yet."

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Solitaire - Aug 14, 2006 10:09 pm (#1561 of 2152)

He doesn't need Ginny anymore. He's back to the way he was in OotP when he still thought she was too little to help him. If she's really his equal, why is that?

I thought he gave her a perfectly reasonable explanation for discontinuing their relationship for the time being: "Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to ..."

Solitaire

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Honour - Aug 15, 2006 2:30 am (#1562 of 2152)

Hey there Die Z I'm one of those fans that do not particularly like the Ginny character because she seems so contrived. That said, I do feel that JKR dropped the ball there a bit by having Harry use the "Voldermort uses people his enemies are close to..." excuse that Soli quoted. If that were so then surely Voldermorts DE's, Peter, Bella, Lucius, Severus or even Draco would have reported that it is Ron and Hermione that Harry is closest to? Maybe she was trying to show Harry in a more mature light, putting the well-being of others ahead of himself, I don't know ... no, even written it sounds pretty weak Smile

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 15, 2006 9:01 am (#1563 of 2152)

Yes, if the saving people thing is being applied to Ginny, is Harry just throwing everyone else he loves to the wolves? It makes no sense. Unless Ginny is being portrayed as willing to let him go when the going gets tough, while Ron and Hermione will not give up their support of him. But that makes Ginny look contrived too- the little woman waiting at home for her man. Bleech.

And it makes no sense to break up with her if he's trying to keep her safe, because no one knows they broke up, cetainly not anyone who could tell Voldemort. I can see Draco trying to save his skin and telling the Death Eaters all about Harry Potter's little girlfriend, who was involved in the destruction of the Dark Lord's diary. No one has ever been able to explain to me how breaking up with her is supposed to help her in practice.

It is TERRIBLY weak. Either Harry is being just plain stupid, or there's more to him wanting to break up with her than we know. Hoepfully, it's the latter.

Or at least a setup for her to get kidnapped, or killed, which will motivate Harry and continue the pattern of him losing someone in every book and getting more fired up to win.

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Steve Newton - Aug 15, 2006 9:35 am (#1564 of 2152)

Librarian
I think that the point with Ron and Hermione is that they will not go away no matter what Harry says. Dumbledore also asked him to include them.

I also think that Ginny will not go away but that is another issue.

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The One - Aug 15, 2006 10:03 am (#1565 of 2152)

Open minded sceptic
I also think that Ginny will not go away but that is another issue.

My problem with that is that the only sign of any depth in their relationship is Harry's assesment thet "he knew they understood each other perfectly".

If Harry thinks he has disposed of Ginny now, and she in her typical "rebellious Ginny" way somehow forces her way into the hunt, that depth falls flat.

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Hoot Owl - Aug 15, 2006 10:10 am (#1566 of 2152)

Teacher
Edited Aug 15, 2006 10:44 am
Never discount the possibility of Harry acting stupid.

At the end of HBP he had only broken with Ginny a few minutes before the book ends. I anticipate a more public staged break up later, maybe at the wedding or the lobby of the MoM. Ginny is the actor of group after all.

I can see her standing up at the reception and yelling at Harry for being a prate for dumping her. Then meeting him in the broom shed for a quick snog before going their separate ways.

Never mind JKR can do much better then that! Sounds too much like a sitcom.

Actually Harry did plan on leaving Ron and Hermione behind and go on alone. Ron reminded him that he had given them the chance to turn back before and they had time to decide to stick with him.

I think Ginny will make the same decision. She may have to be more discrete about it. She would be the most tempting target. Wouldn't that show the WW how weak the chosen one is, he can't even protect his girlfriend! The DE are terrorists aren't they?

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haymoni - Aug 15, 2006 10:26 am (#1567 of 2152)

Harry did not dump her.

She knows that Harry would rather be with her than off fighting Voldy.

He just can't be involved with her right now.

That is very different than being dumped for someone else or being dumped because someone is tired of you.

Ginny gets it. She's not mad at Harry. She understands.

Now if he brings a date to the wedding, there will be hell to pay!!!

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Steve Newton - Aug 15, 2006 10:27 am (#1568 of 2152)

Librarian
Harry has 'known' other things that were not the case. I don't think that it reflects any lack of depth to the relationship. More like wishful thinking.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 15, 2006 10:31 am (#1569 of 2152)

Hi all, I wish I knew what JKR has in mind for all of them, but I do not. But I did find in book 6, page 78, where DD and Harry were talking. DD never told Harry not to say anything, to people he trusted. And DD did not say anything about not talking about the Horcruxes at that point, what he did say was, "Now, I think I am correct in saying that you have not told any-body that you know what you know what the prophecy said?" "A wise decision, on the whole," "Although I think you ought to relax it in favor of your friends, Mr. Ronald Weasley and Miss. Hermione Granger. Yes," "I think they ought to know. You do them a disservice by not confiding something this important to them." "--to worry or frighten them?." "Or perhaps, to confess that you yourself are worried and frightened? You need your friends, Harry. As you so rightly said, Sirius would not have wanted you to shut yourself away." OK, at this point Harry was not going out with Ginny, so her name did not come up. But as DD said, "You need your friends" I think that DD would have no problem with Harry telling Ginny about anything. It is just Harry that will not tell her. And I feel that it is because he wants to protect her, and in doing so he puts her and himself in more danger.

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Hoot Owl - Aug 15, 2006 10:55 am (#1570 of 2152)

Teacher
haymoni,

The point was it going to be a staged (i. e. fake) argument, to fool the public into thinking Ginny hated Harry. A misdirection, a ploy to throw the DEs off the track. To make LV think it wouldn't hurt Harry if Ginny were hurt or killed.

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haymoni - Aug 15, 2006 11:41 am (#1571 of 2152)

Got it.

It seems a bit much though and I'm sure that Fleur would put a stop to anything that took the spotlight away from her on her special day.

I'm thinking of that show "Bridezillas" right now. Aren't those girls awful???

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 15, 2006 12:08 pm (#1572 of 2152)

Hi all, I do not think that Ginny would go along with a fake argument at Bill and Fleur's wedding. I would think that she will want it to turn out nice, and happy for them. And there should not be anyone there that would go and tell anything to LV, I hope. Now I hope that Harry and Ginny will have time to talk to each other at the wedding. I do not feel that they will get back together at the wedding, that will come latter on.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 15, 2006 3:27 pm (#1573 of 2152)

Hi all, Well I have been looking in book 6 for more info.. And here is what I found. Book 6, page 215, "Sir, am I allowed to tell Ron and Hermione everything you've told me?" Then DD said, "Yes, I think Mr. Weasley and Miss. Granger have proved themselves trustworthy. But Harry, I am going to ask you to ask them not to repeat any of this to anybody else. It would not be a good idea if word got around how much I know, or suspect, about Lord Voldemort's secrets." Then Harry said "No, sir, I'll make sure it's just Ron and Hermione. Good night." OK, again I do not see DD telling Harry not to tell anyone at all. DD just said that he did not want Ron and Hermione telling anyone. And that it was not good for it to get around, about how much he knew about LV's secrets. DD also said that Ron and Hermione had proved themselves trustworthy. Now my point is that, DD did not say to Harry, that he could never tell anyone else ever. No, what he said was that they were trustworthy. So Harry would not be going against DD's wishes if he ends up telling someone like Lupin or Ginny. And I hope he ends up telling Ginny, if he loves her, he will end up letting her know what is going on and what he is doing. But that is part of growing up and maybe he is not there yet.

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TheSaint - Aug 16, 2006 4:30 am (#1574 of 2152)

Harry spent the first eleven years of his life dealing with his own issues, as there was no one to discuss it with. Why would he start talking about his feelings and how it effects him now?

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 16, 2006 5:54 pm (#1575 of 2152)

If there were to be a fake arguement at the wedding, who do we think will report it back to the Death Eaters? Is there another spy expected to be there? And will the Death Eaters take it seriously, or feel it's just typical teenged boy-girl bickering? Harry cares so much about all of the Weasleys, I still think they are all targets, including Ginny, whether Harry dates her or not.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 16, 2006 8:06 pm (#1576 of 2152)

Harry and Ginny reached an understanding. Harry has a task to complete. Ginny understands that and won't clamor for his attention when it should be elsewhere. I do think she will help him though. LPO

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Magic Words - Aug 16, 2006 8:26 pm (#1577 of 2152)

Good golly, people! I go on vacation for a week and the threads all run away without me!

I, for one, was quite impressed with Ginny's response to Harry breaking up with her. Didn't she say she knew Harry wouldn't be happy until he'd defeated Voldemort, but maybe that was why she liked him so much? I mean, isn't that perfect? She clearly does understand him (whether he thinks he knows it or not) and she's willing to put their relationship on hold. That's all I see happening, by the way--their relationship is on hold. They'll pick it up again when Voldemort is defeated. And nowhere did Ginny say she wouldn't be Harry's friend and help him in that capacity, as Ron and Hermione do.

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Hoot Owl - Aug 17, 2006 12:07 pm (#1578 of 2152)

Teacher
The fake argument was just a foolish stray thought that I found amusing. It would be crass to spoil Bill and Fluer's big day. I am sure JKR has written something much better!

As far as LV finding out what happens at the wedding. I do not think it is a secret occasion. I am sure there will public notice. The Weasleys are a prominent Wizarding family, Arthur is the head of ministry office, Fluer is Beauxbatons champion, add to that the "Famous Harry Potter" will attend. My guess is there will be press coverage. Rita Skeeter would love to report gossip on Harry. Even if there isn't coverage I am sure LV will find a way to keep informed. Spies are a definite possibility.

Again just a stray thought.

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2006 12:17 pm (#1579 of 2152)

But times are different now.

I'm still wondering where this wedding is going to actually take place.

I have visions of a celebrity wedding - false invites to throw off the paparazzi, but this time the false info is to throw off the Death Eaters.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 17, 2006 5:02 pm (#1580 of 2152)

I think it will take place. Ginny will make a lovely bridesmaid. LPO

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haymoni - Aug 18, 2006 5:49 am (#1581 of 2152)

Oh, I'm sure it will happen - I just wonder about the setting.

With Portkeys, they could have it anywhere.

Ron says Harry has to come by the house - it's possible the wedding is at the Burrow.

Maybe Wizarding Weddings aren't that big of a deal.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 18, 2006 10:43 am (#1582 of 2152)

Why aren't the bride's parents throwing the wedding in France?

But that's off topic. As for Ginny and Harry's breakup, if she knew he wasn't happy unless she was fighting Voldmeort, that just adds fuel to the fire that she doesn't know he was happy with her, and that she only like him because he's a hero in the fight against Voldemort.

And as for a FAKE breakup at the wedding, Harry's saving people thing is well known to the Death Eaters. Even if she was an ex-girlfriend, they might still go after her expecting Harry to want to help her. Breaking up with her CAN NOT help her as I see it. It's just not logical.

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Soul Search - Aug 18, 2006 11:02 am (#1583 of 2152)

I am not sure "Breaking up with her" was intended to keep her safe, exactly. Harry was, at the time he was talking with Ginny, assuming he would be undertaking his horcrux hunt and Voldemort destruction entirely alone. He would be in great danger and anyone with him would share that danger. He did not want to place Ginny in danger.

As it turns out, Hermione and Ron will be with Harry.

I wonder if this might change his thoughts about Ginny? She might be safer with Harry.

I do note that Harry kept Ginny in the dark about the horcruxes. She does, however, know about the locket at #12 Grimmauld Place.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 18, 2006 11:12 am (#1584 of 2152)

She might remember it, if Harry mentioned an enchanted locket, but why would he? He doesn't tell her anything else important. He didn't even tell her he might not be coming back to school. I've said before, that's something I think she had a right to know. When she finds out that he's going away, it will probably be somewhat of a shock.
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haymoni - Aug 18, 2006 11:21 am (#1585 of 2152)

They haven't actually left school yet, so he may have time to tell her on the train.

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Choices - Aug 18, 2006 11:25 am (#1586 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Durning the Triwizard Tournament, only Fleur's mother and sister came to see the final task. It could be that her father is dead or otherwise out of the picture. Perhaps that is why they chose (if they did) to have the wedding at the Weasley's.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 18, 2006 4:55 pm (#1587 of 2152)

Ron and Hermione can choose to go with Harry. They are adults in the Wizarding world. Ginny is not. I'm certain Molly will make sure Ginny stays home. LPO

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 18, 2006 5:06 pm (#1588 of 2152)

I think Molly would have to cast an anti-disapparition jinx and a full body bind jinx on Ginny to prevent her from following Harry Ron and Hermione.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 18, 2006 10:17 pm (#1589 of 2152)

Hi all, I have to agree with you Nathan Zimmermann, about what Molly would have to do to keep Ginny down. After all she is Fred and George's sister.

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frogface - Aug 19, 2006 4:40 am (#1590 of 2152)

"As for Ginny and Harry's breakup, if she knew he wasn't happy unless she was fighting Voldmeort, that just adds fuel to the fire that she doesn't know he was happy with her, and that she only like him because he's a hero in the fight against Voldemort." Die Zimzicke post 1581.

That is clearly just one point of view on the subject though, I for one and many others, see it completely differently. Harry was clearly happy with Ginny and it was obvious for all to see, I think you're taking the word Happy far to literally when she says it. That expression she uses simply implies that while he is happy with her, he would always have the nagging issuse of voldemort at the back of his mind. She understands this about him. Its also NEVER stated that his need to finish Voldemort is the ONLY reason she likes him. It's just one of the reasons.

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haymoni - Aug 19, 2006 12:59 pm (#1591 of 2152)

I thought she admired his commitment to the cause.

He didn't have to go looking for Voldy.

He could have been kept "safe" by the Ministry - locked in a room in the Department of Mysteries or shipped off someplace.

Harry won't be happy until he has killed his parents' murderer - prophesy or no prophesy - this was inevitable.

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Solitaire - Aug 19, 2006 3:34 pm (#1592 of 2152)

Ron and Hermione can choose to go with Harry. They are adults in the Wizarding world. Ginny is not. I'm certain Molly will make sure Ginny stays home.

I think LPO and Nathan are spot on. Ginny is still a minor, and Molly will keep her out of the mess as far as it is in her power to do so.

Edit: BTW, Haymoni, I agree that Harry has to face Voldemort. He will never be satisfied until this happens.

Solitaire

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 20, 2006 8:44 pm (#1593 of 2152)

Ginny is a talented witch. But against Molly, Arthur and most of her brothers I am sure she would have a hard time following Harry. I'm guessing even Fred and George would be trying to stop her. LPO

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 21, 2006 9:15 am (#1594 of 2152)

But should they try to stop Ginny from going, and should she listen? We all got mad at Percy for trying to tell Ron not to go around with Harry, because Harry always got him into trouble, even when most of the wizarding world didn't have enough proof to believe Voldemort was back, but now with him definitely back, we seem to want Ron and Ginny to go with Harry and do something dangerous. I know Harry needs help, but Ginny can't defeat Voldemort, and neither can Ron or Hermione. Harry has to do that himself, as I see it.

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Magic Words - Aug 21, 2006 7:19 pm (#1595 of 2152)

Harry has to do it himself, but I'm sure he can't do it alone. There are Horcruxes and such to deal with even before we start thinking about the final confrontation.

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TheSaint - Aug 22, 2006 2:40 pm (#1596 of 2152)

I believe the last time Ginny did not listen Bella wanted to use her as leverage, the rest had to protect her. Then she broke her ankle and had to be carried around. Perhaps she should listen.

Those that propose Molly would not be able to stop her...Do you see her Bat-Boogeying her own mother? LOL

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legolas returns - Aug 22, 2006 2:53 pm (#1597 of 2152)

Didnt Ginny say that having twin brothers such as Fred and George made you believe that anything was possible?

I cant see how her mum would be able to stop her doing anything when she is at school but I can see her managing to stop her when she is at home. Ginny would be very stupid to curse her own mum.

I wonder what Molly and Arthur think of the things that Harry et al got up to in the ministry or at the end of HBP and for that matter every year since 1st year?

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Mediwitch - Aug 22, 2006 9:15 pm (#1598 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
The Saint, I interpreted that scene with a slightly different spin. I didn't think the rest had to protect her, but rather that they were showing their unity to the Death Eaters, rather like Ron and Hermione did for Harry in the Shrieking Shack - "If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us too." And Ginny fared no worse than Ron or Hermione in the battle.

I don't think Ginny would curse her own mum, although she might feel like it!

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 22, 2006 10:35 pm (#1599 of 2152)

Hi all, Well I do not feel that Ginny will need to do anything to her Mom, she will more than likely be at school and Molly will not be anywhere around, to see what is going on. And I just do not see Ginny doing anything to Molly anyway, that just would not be right. And yes, Ginny admired Harry for wanting to help save the wizarding world, I feel that she would like to help too. It is just one of the many reasons she loves him. Ginny being a minor will not stop her, when I think back to my minor years. And look at what all Harry has done in his minor years. I think I knew more minors that got up to things than adults. I do not feel that Ginny would tell anyone, but maybe Harry, Hermione or Luna what she was up to. Just so there is know one to stop her. Ginny will be in her sixth year, and yes she believes that anything is possible. She is the 7th child of the 7th child etc. etc., that is a lot of power JKR has set her up with, for her to just set around and do nothing. I'm thinking that Harry has to face LV on his own. He will not have to do all the Horcruxes alone, or the DE's. And this may be where Ginny comes into play. Or she could come into play, when all four of the houses come together. Or if Harry losses some of his power, like LV's mom or Tonks did when they could not be with the one they loved. We will get to see why JKR has given her so much power, I think.

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TheSaint - Aug 23, 2006 5:04 am (#1600 of 2152)

She is the 7th grandchild of a 7th child.

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Eponine - Aug 23, 2006 5:56 am (#1601 of 2152)
Have we been told this? JKR has commented on her being the 7th child, but I don't think anything has been said about either of her parents or any of her granparents being a 7th child.

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journeymom - Aug 23, 2006 9:33 am (#1602 of 2152)

Okay, I think this bit about Ginny being the seventh daughter of... gets confusing. So I looked it up. This is specifically what Jo says:

"MA: Does she [Ginny] have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stuff, being the seventh girl —

JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again."

Also, from JKR's web site:

"Ginny (full name Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be born into the Weasley clan for several generations. "

My conclusion from these two quotes is that while Jo mentions the 7th child of the 7th child tradition, she hasn't stuck to the 'rules' strictly. Because neither Molly nor Arthur have 6 older siblings. So she's modified it to her own needs. Ginny's the first female in the Weasley family in ages, so she's gifted.

This is all I can find from the mouth of Jo about Ginny's generational thing.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 23, 2006 10:17 am (#1603 of 2152)

I think either Molly or Arthur could have seven siblings, but Jo HAS changed the old tradition to suit her, because in traditional myths, it is the 7th son of a 7th son, or the 7th daughter of a 7th daughter who is powerful. Ginny is just Molly's 7th child.

I know I'm showing my age again, but what the heck! Has anyone ever heard the old Johnny Rivers song "Seventh Son" that was based on that folklore?

I just wish I could see Ginny doing more in canon to show she is gifted. I don't see that yet.

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Magic Words - Aug 23, 2006 1:50 pm (#1604 of 2152)

I've actually read a couple different books that twist that old tradition by making the "seventh son" a daughter, or giving the son older sisters instead of all brothers. I think it's more the thought that counts.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 23, 2006 9:24 pm (#1605 of 2152)

And Rowling likes to surround Harry with 1's, 3's, and 7's. Harry is the One; Harry, Ron, and Hermione make up the Trio; and now Harry has Ginny, the seventh.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 25, 2006 7:11 am (#1606 of 2152)

Hi all, I believe JKR says on her site, that Ginny's Dad has 2 or 3 brothers, I do not remember if it was 2 or 3. However she did not say how many brothers and sisters Molly has. JKR talks about 2 of her brothers, that were killed by LV. But she did not say anything about the ones that are still alive. And she never said that the 2 that died at LV's were the only 2 Molly had. So my money is on Molly's side of the fiamly., for the 7th child thing.
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Nate Davis - Aug 25, 2006 1:37 pm (#1607 of 2152)

BYU student
Edited by Catherine Aug 26, 2006 4:07 am
Hey, I was just talking about this on the 'ship' thread, but I found a really good essay on the portrayal of Ginny in the Harry Potter books. It goes into a HUGE amount of detail, and covers Ginny up to the end of book five. It mostly focuses on Jo setting her up to be the main romantic interest. I'd be interested to see the author's take on Ginny in HBP, too, but I guess that's not an option right now.

Anyway, the site is below:

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I removed a link to another site. Generally, we do not post links to essays on other sites. I hope you understand. --Catherine

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2006 10:11 am (#1608 of 2152)

If Harry Potter were fan fiction, then I would say that in book 5 and book 6, Ginny comes off as a "Mary Sue"--too perfect to be real. In that sense I think it's possible that her character is not written well. Unlike some I never got the impression she was particularly rude, arrogant, or self centered.

I guess my problem is I find it difficult to accept that Ginny can get over her "crushes". In my experience with crushes I never really get over them unless the object behaved like a complete jerk and even then I would probably still secretly hope he would change for me. But if I started to blush or get tongue tied if being around my fantasy person I could not be like Ginny in the fifth book and start acting like it's a whole new fresh start. Those that like Ginny and accept her as written, have you experienced a crush and then later behaved like Ginny in book 5?

I do believe it's possible in book 7, Harry will find some fault in Ginny that he has to learn to accept otherwise the "love story" is too simplistic.

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Magic Words - Aug 30, 2006 11:34 am (#1609 of 2152)

I've never had a serious crush, so I can't say for sure. But Ginny was eleven years old during the blushing, tongue-tied stage. And she does say she never really got over him.

Anyway, it's two years between books 2 and 5. Unrequited crushes must wear off eventually, right?

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Meoshimo - Aug 30, 2006 4:43 pm (#1610 of 2152)

I had a very very very serious crush on one of my best friends last year, and I got over it. I didn't distance myself from her even, I just accepted the fact that it wasn't going to happen and moved on. Over time, the feelings died away.

I think that Ginny did something of the same thing (exept that deep deep down she didn't give up hope, as Magic Words pointed out.)

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Mediwitch - Aug 30, 2006 4:57 pm (#1611 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
rambkowalczyk, when I was in school, I had a major crush that I was able to move past, and eventually became friends with the boy in question. Some time later, we developed (in my case, re-developed) a mutual interest, which we quickly realized went nowhere. We remained friends for a long time after that. So it does happen.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2006 7:44 pm (#1612 of 2152)

I think Ginny matured and was able to better handel her feelings for Harry. She was no longer "star struck" by him. She gained a lot of confidence. Being friends is very important to a romantic relationship. The fact they developed a friendship in OoP and HBP has enabled their romantic feelings to blossom. LPO

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shadzar - Sep 27, 2006 9:31 am (#1613 of 2152)

Her name, for some reason I didn't think much, but drawing from just thhnking about its origins caused me to think about something that may be a red herring or me reading too much into something.

Guinevere married to Arthur and had an affair with one of, if not his most trusted; Knights of the Round Table.

Obviously the link with Arthur could be her fathers name but could the references including Ginny herself mean something more closely related to "Camelot" tales?

We have a few clues that could allude to a closer relation to Camelot and someone in particular linked with magic:

Ginny Weasley, Guinevere
Arhtur Weaslet
Ginny going to the Yule ball with Neville (Lancelot)
Ginny's fondness of Harry (King Arthur) [pulled sword from stone/(hat in Harry's case)]
We know thee is an Order of Merlin with regards to Muggle treatment
Arhtur Weasley's job and Dept for the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts (tying to the concept of the Order of Merlin)
7 children in the current Weasley family (the magic number)
Ginny rescued by Harry (Arthur), when she was taken to the CoS (fortress) by TMR/LV (King Melwas); after a year in TMR/LV control (capture).

Could these link the Weasely's themselve as descendants of Merlin? And moreso could the subtle (seeing Neville only asked her so he could have a date after being turned down by Hermione, etc) lead to a possible stronger relationship between her and Harry or Neville in the future?

While I can't cross reference every OotP member with there Round Table Counter parts it seems they are too closely related to be overlooked and menial similarities.

Sorry if this has been discussed to death elsewhere, but it only occured to me while reading something and going to the lexicon to look up Ginny to respond to it, and totally lost what is was I was going to say.

Regan of Gong - Oct 2, 2006 5:57 am (#1614 of 2152) [/b]
Self declared doctor of everything.
There was some fanfic I was reading about Ginny being the 7th child of a 7th child, making her a very powerful witch.

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haymoni - Oct 2, 2006 6:06 am (#1615 of 2152)

The only thing I recall JKR saying is that Ginny was the first girl born into the family in quite a long while.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 2, 2006 12:24 pm (#1616 of 2152)

Jo's tweaking that legend. It was traditonally the seventh son of a seventh son that was powerful magically. Hence the Johnny Rivers song, "Seventh Son". I've never heard anyone but Jo say the 7th child of a 7th child is powerful.

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Meoshimo - Oct 2, 2006 7:54 pm (#1617 of 2152)

I've always heard it as the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter was supposed to be a witch.

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shadzar - Oct 2, 2006 8:47 pm (#1618 of 2152)

7th son of a 7th son goes something like this if i recall correctly:

"the unborn one"
predict the future
healer
lucky
Divine/Chosen one
power granted by gods
both good and evil will fight for his soul
Can these be gender switched to female and apply to Ginny?
Do we know the details of her birth? Something like in Shakespeare maybe: "No man born from woman can kill you."
Does she have many premonitions?
Would healing Harry emotionally count?
Felix Felicis
She was chosen by Lucius and Tom in a way to open the CoS
Does magic count as power granted by gods in so far as Muggles would be concerned?
Tom vs Harry in the Chamber.
Oddly those are the only 7 details I remember of the legend/myth, not that there isn't more. So I don't want to strengthen the arguement of 7's with just my memory or lack thereof.

There is just way too much to be coincidental about Ginny and her possible role in future events.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 11, 2006 12:48 am (#1619 of 2152)

Hi all, So what kind of roles do you see Ginny doing or being a part of in book 7?

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Regan of Gong - Oct 11, 2006 4:31 am (#1620 of 2152)

Self declared doctor of everything.
Read the last 1600 posts for a rough idea.

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Meoshimo - Oct 11, 2006 5:30 pm (#1621 of 2152)

*snickers*

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 12, 2006 2:35 pm (#1622 of 2152)

Thanks a lot, Regan. I almost spit tea all over my keyboard.

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haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 5:23 am (#1623 of 2152)

Regan, The Prince of SPEW???

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:58 am (#1624 of 2152)

We are getting dreadfully off topic, but having a lot of fun. We have to be careful I don't think that is allowed! LOL!

Anyway, I still see Ginny as a target in the last book. No one knows she and Harry broke up, so it can't keep her safe. I think something may happen at the wedding, but I can think of other places, too.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 13, 2006 9:12 am (#1625 of 2152)

Regan of Gong, Ha Ha Ha Ha You are so funny!!!!!!!Ha Ha Ha

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shadzar - Oct 13, 2006 3:37 pm (#1626 of 2152)

No matter about her and Harry temporarily seperating or what have you, but LV probably knows the Order members that opposed the DE the night of the tower incident and her name will be on the list. So he will most likely want to target them all to remove the remaining traces of DD and his followers to further diminish Harry's strengths. Whether he believes int he power of love, or just to weaken HArry's numbers. So either way with or seperate from Harry, Ginny will most likely be a target. She was used once by him so their may be enough remnents of fear from that time to allow her to be controlled again is she doesn't have the strength of Harry by her side.

Harry should take this into consideration as she told him in HBP, and keep her closer as she will be a target anyway. Otherwise we might see a Sirius event again if Harry doesn't know where she is and she is completely safe.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm (#1627 of 2152)

Remember that Ginny is a student not a Member of the Order, and also that as Lucius is in Azkaban, I doubt that she was pointed out as a threat, specifically. How would Voldemort know that she and Harry are an item? It all happened so fast. Only Draco was around and he spent most of his time in the RoR.

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Hoot Owl - Oct 13, 2006 8:10 pm (#1628 of 2152)

Teacher
Some of the DE have children enrolled at Hogwarts. The fact that Harry & Ginny were "an item" is not exactly a state secret! If LV wants to know who is close to Harry all he has to do is ask a Death Nibbler or their parents.

Ginny will defiantly be a target. Probably right up there with Harry Potter. I hope Harry does more then just stay away from her for security. At the very least he/they need to talk to someone about extra protection for her. Arthur, Bill or Remus might be able help set up something quietly.

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 14, 2006 3:34 pm (#1629 of 2152)

Even if Voldemort doesn't know about Harry and Ginny being an item, what change would it make. Ginny fought the Death Eaters twice already. She is a member of a so called blood traitor family. She is a friend of Harry (and at least this is widely known), and a member of Harry's favourite family. Ginny is still as much in danger than prior to the break-up. This is one reason, why I hate the breakup-scene so much. In addition to being overly melodramatic and filled with (almost hilariously) cheesy dialogue ["We could have had years"], it is also really superflous.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 14, 2006 6:50 pm (#1630 of 2152)

With Voldemort having already targeted Emiline Vance and Amelia Bones, why would he target a 15 year old girl? I can see flushing out Harry with others, such as, McGonnegell, Hagrid, even Lupin. But chasing down Arthur Weasley's only daughter, would not be the best move he could make. But then again if anything would bring Percy back, assuming he is not already with Voldemort, Hunting Ginny could go a long way to doing it.

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Meoshimo - Oct 15, 2006 12:10 pm (#1631 of 2152)

Not to mention that half the Weaslys are in the Order. I'm thinking that if the Order continues (I think it will in some form), that Fred and George will join. Voldemort would go after Ginny simply because she is family to several Order members.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 15, 2006 7:58 pm (#1632 of 2152)

He might go after her again if Lucius had to admit that Ginny was involved when the diary was destroyed. Voldemort was really hacked off at Lucius for that. I would think he would either demand or just go into Malfoy's mind and take the details. Then you have the fact that there are so many Weasleys so involved, they can't all survive. I think she'll be a target, and possibly be killed. She's hot headed and reckless, after all.

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shadzar - Oct 15, 2006 8:27 pm (#1633 of 2152)

So Harry doesn't get to have his cake and eait it too, eh? His ideal girl will be killed off. I don't think she will die is she is to be Harry's love interest in respects to the power of love represented so strongly in the books. She may pull a Lily and sacrifice herslef to save Harry, but I think we are tired of that outcome already; and after Harry turns 17 doesn't that kind of protection no longer work?

I see her being used as a tool again by LV, but that would mean he has learned the power of love, or he is just using that feeble device again to get to Harry. But that refers back to Sirius, and would make LV seem more of a one hit wonder and can't come up with anything new.

The fact she is a Weasley may contribute more to her involvement IMHO rather than the love aspect. LV knowing of the power of 7 may also figure out she is the 7th child. So how many reasons would LV have for going after Ginny?

is a Weasley
7th child
assisted the order
defied him...3 times now. O.o (CoS, OotP, HBP)
is a Gryffindor
is of interest to Harry
used before, so may be able to be used again
ok that makes 7. Can someone include more or does the power of 7 prevail yet again?

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 16, 2006 7:29 am (#1634 of 2152)

In nearly each book, Harry sustains a loss that makes him more motivated. He's lost his parents, his godfather, a new friend, and his mentor already. So I think losing his ex-girlfriend isn't out of the question. I think it would make for a great angsty story. I'm not at all sure of course, that Ginny will die, but I do think it's possible. I'd like to see it happen because it would be a plot twist that would cause a lot of action in the story, and because it's totally unrealistic for a large family so involved in the war not to lose someone along the way.

I don't see where Ginny has been much assistance to the order yet, though. She broke her ankle and was no help at the DoM, and she admitted herself she would have died without the Felix in HBP. She did a lot of dodging, but not any damage there that we can be certain of.

I doubt if Voldemort knows the Weasleys, but he certainly knows OF them by now. He definitely knows about Ginny since she was involved with the diary incident, via Lucius, who screwed that up pretty royally.

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Steve Newton - Oct 16, 2006 7:59 am (#1635 of 2152)

Librarian
DZ, although Ginny was injured at the DM we don't know that she was no help. She was certainly a help getting them there. Her Bat Bogey Hex helped them escape from the IS. Every shot that she dodged at the Hogwarts battle was a shot not going at someone else. I think that is very helpful.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 16, 2006 8:14 am (#1636 of 2152)

Althought I do not subscribe to the notion of Ginny being a target, the one example that I think sets her apart is how Slughorn treated her. He has the knack for finding only the most gifted or placed in order to place himself. So if Slughorn thinks she's good, well, she is.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2006 9:01 am (#1637 of 2152)

she admitted herself she would have died without the Felix in HBP.

I don't have that book handy, but I don't remember her saying that exactly. I thought it was more along the lines of them all possibly dying without the potion.

There's no reason why Ginny, or any of these teens, should have been of help to the Order. They're not in the Order. They're still in school.

But if you want to compare injuries and battles, Bill managed to get himself taken out by Greyback, and Flitwick wasn't much help since he was unconscious, so I don't see how Ginny's performance either at the Department of Mysteries or at Hogwarts was any worse than that.

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Eponine - Oct 16, 2006 9:26 am (#1638 of 2152)

Okay, here's what she says:

Harry, if we hadn't had your Felix potion, I think we'd all have been killed, but everything seemed to just miss us- (HBP, UK edition p. 571)

She doesn't exactly say that she would have died without it, but that it was a strong possibility.

Personally, I think Ginny will play a bigger role in 7, but I'm not really sure what she'll be doing. I really doubt she'll be going along on the Horcrux hunt, but that she'll be helping from afar.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 16, 2006 9:25 pm (#1639 of 2152)

In the DoM Ginny had her wand and her voice, but once she broke her ankle she was useless and had to be helped out by Luna. Contrast that to Neville, who had a broken, profusely bleeding nose and no wand, and who still kept trying to fight. Then tell me she helped.

It was Luna's idea to ride the thestrals, so it was she who helped them get there, not Ginny. Harry was still insisting at that point that Ginny was too young to be of any use to him.

I do not think Slughorn is the best judge of character, personally, but I'll give that some more thought.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 16, 2006 9:42 pm (#1640 of 2152)

Die, perhaps, the role of each of the sextet I believe should be mitigated to a degree because, they are six teenagers who are facing twelve Death Eaters and at least four five of them were highly skilled opponents

Lucius, quick witted agile and cunning
Bellatrix a fierce fighter capable of withstanding even an attack from Dumbledore.
Dolohov also an able fighter capable of wounding Mad-Eye Moody in single combat
Mulciber a specialist in the Imperius Curse
Rookwood whose knowledge of the DoM would have been invaluable and would have given the Death Eater a distinct advantage over Harry and his friends.

I doubt that six teens could effectively combat these five Death Eaters in a coordinated attack let alone the seven that assisted them.

Also each time Harry has faced Voldemort it has been in single combat with no assistance from the Death Eaters. Neither Ginny, nor Harry has not squared off against Death Eaters of the caliber that were at the DoM.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 17, 2006 12:22 am (#1641 of 2152)

Hi all, I believe DD thought that Slughorn was a good judge of a person. That is what he told Harry, that Slughorn had a knack for finding and picking out students that were powerful, gifted or had ties to people that were high up in there world. And that he thought that Slughorn would want Harry in his Slug Club. Let us think about who all has been in the Slug Club. Just for a start there was LV and Lily Potter. And now we have Hermione and Ginny in his Slug Club. I believe we will see why he picked them, even more so in book 7. I feel that JKR put Ginny there so we could see that there was more to her.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 17, 2006 1:12 am (#1642 of 2152)

Die, the evidence we have on Slughorn is that he picks people that are gifted enough to help him stay connected. That is his real talent. His picking Ginny as one of those that are "special", only says that her potential is there to become great, furthering his fame.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 17, 2006 12:46 pm (#1643 of 2152)

The Death Eaters so far have acted so laughably, that I'm surprised anyone is still afraid of them. They have been complete bozos, in my opinion.

And I do not see how what Neville did can be seen as anything other than giving his all. He kept fighting, bleeding and in pain, when he had nothing left to give. Luna also fought until she was incapacitated, as did Hermione. Ginny was not unconcious, or wandless and she was still not helpful. I am questioning the idea that she IS powerful, based on what we have seen, not whether or not she could be. She has always had potential, but I feel it is not utilized well.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2006 1:04 pm (#1644 of 2152)

Die, I think it was easier for Neville to keep fighting because, a broken nose although painful does affect the natural ability of a person to stand upright whereas a broken ankle severely limits movement and can incapacitate quickly. I do not think that Ginny's power has been shown yet and that this is intentional on the oart of J.K. Rowling.

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els - Oct 18, 2006 6:07 am (#1645 of 2152)

I agree with Nathan. A broken ankle IS much more painful than a broken nose. Plus Harry mentions that Ginny looks quesy which could indicate that she was in shock from the injury. I think that it is unfair to compare the two injuries as a measure of Ginny's ability, courage or will to fight.

However, of the three non-trio members, Neville performed the most on-screen magic and probably had the largest emotional stake in the battle of the three (i.e. avenging his parents and understanding what the DEs are capable of). Luna and Ginny were off-screen as was Ginny's injury. We have no idea how she sustain or how much magic she, Luna, or Ron performed.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 18, 2006 10:25 am (#1646 of 2152)

Are you all admitting that Neville's parents being in St. Mungo's gives him a bigger emotional stake in this story than Ginny being possessed by Tom Riddle? Because if you are we just might have to kiss... LOL!

I've never had a broken nose and a broken ankle. I've just had a broken nose. And it sucks. But Neville was also wandless and couldn't speak clearly. Ginny had her wand and her voice, and was denying that the pain was that bad. I don't doubt it did hurt and she was just beign stubborn, but Luna was able to move her. She could still have cast a spell at some point.

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journeymom - Oct 18, 2006 10:51 am (#1647 of 2152)

" I don't doubt it did hurt and she was just beign stubborn, but Luna was able to move her. She could still have cast a spell at some point. "

But why? Why would she not help if she could? And I resolutely disagree that it's because she's stubborn. I'm not a huge fan of Ginny, but she was nothing but loyal to Harry and the cause in this instance. I think the greater emphasis on Neville is there because JKR simply wanted Neville to have his moment associated with the prophecy. This is it, that's Neville's zenith of significance.* It simply wasn't Ginny's time yet to be important.

And I'm just now figuring out that however guilty or horrible Neville felt about breaking the prophecy ball, it ultimately was a blessing in disguise. It ensured the prophecy couldn't make it to LV. Harry later heard the whole thing from Dd , anyway.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 18, 2006 10:56 am (#1648 of 2152)

Hi all, I too agree with Nathan, about being able to keep on the move with a broken nose, there is a lot you can still do, once your eyes stop watering. I have had a broken ankle, about 9 years ago. And there is not a lot you can do without crutches or a cane. I feel that JKR has built Ginny up, throughout the series. As for me, I can not see why someone would go to all that work. And then, when everyone is expecting to see greet things from her in book 7, just stop, and not have Ginny in the story. I just do not see it going down that way! JKR built Ginny up for more than a few months with Harry. Ginny will be involved in quite a bit of book 7, the way I see it, the possibilities are endless. I'm looking forward to book 7.

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Hoot Owl - Oct 18, 2006 12:10 pm (#1649 of 2152)

Teacher
Ginny has been built up throughout all six books, but JKR has hidden alot about her also. It has been mentioned that when she does that, it usually is important to the story. I am very much looking forward to finding out just how powerful a witch Harry's leading lady is.

I will admit that Ginny has been one of my favorite non-trio characters ever since she got in Draco's face and told him to leave Harry alone! Very few people stand between him and his tormentors and she was one of the first.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 18, 2006 12:11 pm (#1650 of 2152)

Are you all admitting that Neville's parents being in St. Mungo's gives him a bigger emotional stake in this story than Ginny being possessed by Tom Riddle?

I'm not, but it has nothing to do with how I feel about the characters, rather it's that what happens to a person is so uniquely subjective that no one can really and truly understand what someone else is going through. Even when a family member dies, not everyone reacts the same way... some cry, some get angry, some retreat emotionally. Ginny and Neville's emotions are their own and can't be compared.

The same goes for pain tolerance. Some people have a high pain thresh hold while others seem to have more sensitive nerve endings. Some places seem to hurt more than others. I've never had a broken ankle, but I have had very bad sprains, and one sprain was only the second time in my adult life that I actually cried because it hurt so much (the other being my sciatic nerve). Again, comparing injuries just doesn't work for me... different people, different injuries, different reactions, different emotions to things.

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1651 to 1700)

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Thom Matheson - Oct 18, 2006 1:52 pm (#1651 of 2152)
Sorry all, but for me Ginny is the whole package. Best flyer other then Harry, good student, well likes, fights like a guy, doesn't put up with a load of nonsense, as well as took one on the chin with Riddle.

Each book Ginny gets more and more involved and is usually the first one to the front of the line. In sports terms, she always wants the ball.

Then there is Neville. Honorable, kind, smart, sort of; just an all around great guy. He's willing to follow you anywhere. That is the difference for me. He will always be a follower. Ginny will always strive to be a leader.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2006 3:05 pm (#1652 of 2152)

Let it snow!
It may be interesting to point out that women with red hair have extremely good pain tolerances, genetically speaking. Researchers have found genetic links between the mutation that causes red hair and the genes responsible for pain tolerance. Maybe that's why you always see women with red hair having lots of kids in bedtime stories...

Actually, I do agree that Neville had a bigger stake, to some point, in the MoM battle, but Ginny had a stake in it too as she and her brother could've been killed. However, I don't think we can judge her performance at the battle in terms of clues as to how powerful a witch she'll turn out to be. After being seperated, when everyone meets back up, Neville has a broken nose, Ron's all goofy, Hermione's out cold, Ginny's got a broken ankle, and only Harry and Luna are fine. They go into the brain room, Harry yells for them to start locking doors (which only Neville, Luna, and Harry set off to do as Ginny can't move with the broken ankle, Hermione's busy being a lump, and Ron's, well, off in his own little world at the moment). The DEs come in before they get all the doors locked and Luna gets hit and is out cold. Then everyone (DA and DEs alike) watch Ron go brain fishing, which Harry runs over to help with, then Ginny gets stunned. She doesn't have the time that Neville does to help. She's out before the majority of the fighting really starts to happen. I think she wakes up as Harry runs through the room chasing Bella at the end, but she's unconscious for most of the battle in the veil room. So, there's really not way to compare Ginny and Neville as, at the point she gets stunned, Neville hasn't done that much more than her in terms of being helpful (he's locked a few doors whereas she couldn't get to them). It's only after she's out that and it's down to just Harry and Neville that Neville becomes a great help, as that's when the largest part of the fighting comes about.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 19, 2006 8:50 am (#1653 of 2152)

I do not see Ginny as a whole package of anything but nasty comments and bossiness. I'd be willing to bet if you look at her lines, 75% of them are derogatory to someone.

The fact that Jo set her up as the best flyer, other than Harry, in spite of the fact that she was going up against flyers who had been on the teams for years, after only sneaking out on a broom once in awhile was not realistic to me. We don't know she is a good student. Her school work never gets mentioned. That's an assumption with no basis in canon. If she is well liked, it came out of the blue, as she was so isolated in her second year, she was confiding in an enchanted book and no one really noticed anything was wrong with her. She does not fight like a guy. Guys don't bob and weave with their hair dancing, and never hit anything, at least not usually. She doesn't put up with a load of nonsense, but everyone who disagrees with her or has the audacity to question anything she or Harry says is put down as an idiot, even Hermione, who thought it might have been a bad idea for Harry to use an unfamiliar spell and almost kill another student. She wouldn't have had to take it on the chin if she hadn't gotten herself into the mess in the first place, after her father had told her for years to stay away from things like that. Ron knew what enchanted books could do. She must have also. She almost killed other students herself, and got off the hook for it, so maybe that's why she thinks it's okay for Harry to do it.

She does always want the ball. She always wants the attention, but she doesn't seem to care about whether or not that's the best course. She flys off the handle a lot, like she did with Zacharias and when she humiliated Ron in front of his best friend.

Then there IS Neville who is a more likable character as I see him. I adore him. He's one of my favorites, one of the few characters outside of Luna and Fleur whom I think came out as good or better than they started that last book. He is honorable, kind, and an all around great guy, but he is also braver than he thinks and has been showing that since the first book when he stands up to the trio. He's not so much willing to follow you anywhere as he is to fill in with whatever needs to be done. We don't need a lot of leaders. We need people who will always do what is best for Harry, no matter what it costs them.

Ginny can't be the leader. Harry is, and always has been and always will be. You can't have too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, as the old saying used to go.

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haymoni - Oct 19, 2006 9:34 am (#1654 of 2152)

Harry was an excellent flyer and he had NEVER been on a broom before.

While I know of no canon for her grades, there is canon for her talent - I believe there is a quote from one of the Twins.

Die - you just don't like Ginny - like you just don't like Molly - and there is nothing that anyone will be able to say - canon or otherwise - to persuade you.

But that's OK.

I like Ginny & I like Molly, and there is nothing you can say, canon or otherwise, to persuade me!

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Weeny Owl - Oct 19, 2006 11:16 am (#1655 of 2152)

If she is well liked, it came out of the blue, as she was so isolated in her second year, she was confiding in an enchanted book and no one really noticed anything was wrong with her.

Her being friendly with Luna indicates that she isn't just talking to her fellow Gryffindors, and if she can be friends with Luna, why couldn't she be friends with a lot of people?

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juliebug - Oct 19, 2006 11:24 am (#1656 of 2152)

In HBP, Pansy Parkinson says "A lot of boys like her," and "Even you think she's good-looking, Blaise, and we all know how hard you are to please!"

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Lina - Oct 19, 2006 1:03 pm (#1657 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
She was not isolated and confiding in an enchanted book in her second year, but in her first which is actually a BIG difference because the book started to lure her before she came to Hogwarts (remember when she went home to take the Diary when everybody was already settled in the car?) and before she had the time to start making friendships at Hogwarts. One of the reasons why did she let the Diary take over her might have been the fact that Harry was at their home and that her brothers were spending time with him while she was avoiding him. I don't see anything strange in her brothers accepting the fact that she is avoiding Harry and didn't notice that something wrong was going on. Actually, she was the one that noticed that something wrong was going on, but Percy didn't let her confide with Ron.

And by the way that she talks to Harry about being possessed by Voldemort, in OotP, it is clearly obvious that she doesn't think that it was nothing important, that she didn't have to be or that she wasn't punished for exploring the item that she shouldn't have to.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 20, 2006 6:44 am (#1658 of 2152)

In the third book, which was Ginny's second year, we saw her very little, and didn't see Luna at all. So we don't know much about her friends.

I know some fans will like her no matter what she does. I understand that. I feel that way about Draco. The little slimeball is complex, and I like complicated characters. I think I understand his motivations, so I find him interesting, no matter what he does, even thogh I admit he's not good. He's well written to me at least.

The hardest thing for me to get past will always be that Ginny trashed Harry's room and stole the diary back, to get her little imaginary friend back, even though she knew at at that point something was wrong with him. She seemed selfish there, and I do not understand her motivations, when it was putting so many people in such horrible danger. She's lucky no one died, or that the blame Harry took for people getting petrified didn't cause him more problems than it did.

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Laura W - Oct 20, 2006 7:40 am (#1659 of 2152)

"In HBP, Pansy Parkinson says "A lot of boys like her," and "Even you think she's good-looking, Blaise, and we all know how hard you are to please!" " (juliebug)

We know that Ravenclaw's Michael Corner was so captivated by the 13-year-old Ginny -- for whatever reason -- during the Yule Ball that he asked her to be his girlfriend near the end of that school year. And note that when they did break up, *she* dumped *him*.

Apparently Ms. Weasley gained a lot of confidence and poise the two years between age 11 and 13, as well as blossoming physically in those years; no longer the lonely, insecure 11-year-old we see in CoS. It isn't unusual for that to happen with some girls. Not everybody, of course, but with some.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2006 12:39 pm (#1660 of 2152)

Honestly, Die, whether or not you like Ginny, I really think you're being much too harsh on a little girl. How she is in HBP is different, but when she's just 10/11, she really can't be expected to behave as an adult.

I have a friend whose daughter is eleven, and even though the daughter was diagnosed with diabetes, she still eats things she shouldn't, even though with her it could be fatal, so Ginny not remembering the whole "if you can't see its brain" thing doesn't seem to be out of character for an eleven-year-old girl. My friend's daughter is doing a bit better lately, but she had trouble last year being in a new school. New teachers, new routines, new people... it's tough under the best of circumstances.
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journeymom - Oct 20, 2006 2:53 pm (#1661 of 2152)

Was Ginny even in control of her actions at that point? I'd always thought when Ginny trashed Harry's trunk and got the diary back she was under Tom's control. I very well could have missed something, though. It's been a while since I read CoS.

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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2006 2:54 pm (#1662 of 2152)

I thought that she did what she did because she did not want anyone finding out that it was her releasing Slytherins monster. She did not want to be expelled from school.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 20, 2006 2:55 pm (#1663 of 2152)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"The hardest thing for me to get past will always be that Ginny trashed Harry's room and stole the diary back, to get her little imaginary friend back, even though she knew at at that point something was wrong with him. She seemed selfish there, and I do not understand her motivations,..."

Seems to me that JKR got through to most of her readers with one little line from Harry. "How could they prove it had been he who'd made her do it all?" pp 328 Schol. CoS

You make it sound as if she did it all of her own free will. She was controlled by evil personified, and its her fault?

...toddles off for a butterbeer on that skewed viewpoint...

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nthdavid - Oct 21, 2006 12:56 am (#1664 of 2152)

From COS "The Heir of Slytherin" Tom Riddle: "Imagine how angry I was when the next time my diary was opened, it was Ginny who was writing to me, not you. She saw you with the diary, you see, and panicked. What if you found out how to work it, and I repeated all her secrets to you? What if, even worse, I told you who'd been strangling roosters? So the foolish little brat waited until your dormitory was deserted and stole it back."

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Quidditch Mom - Oct 21, 2006 5:41 am (#1665 of 2152)

I've always thought (or hoped) Ginny will remember or know something about Riddle from their diary "conversations" that will help Harry figure out the horcruxes. Outside of Dumbledore and the Death Eaters, Ginny and Harry probably know more about LV than anyone. I think that may be her most important role in the books.

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Soul Search - Oct 21, 2006 7:20 am (#1666 of 2152)

Quidditch Mom,

"Ginny will remember or know something about Riddle from their diary "conversations" that will help Harry figure out the horcruxes."

Interesting idea. But, Harry hasn't told Ginny about the horcruxes.
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Quidditch Mom - Oct 21, 2006 10:08 am (#1667 of 2152)

Soul Search,

I'm not sure that Harry will tell anyone beyond Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes. Ginny knows Harry is going after Voldemort. He could just say, "The more I know about him, the better my chances of coming up with a plan to defeat him. Any little detail you can remember could be the key..." Not exactly full disclosure, but not a lie, either.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 21, 2006 11:33 pm (#1668 of 2152)

Can I repeat this again?

From COS "The Heir of Slytherin" Tom Riddle: "Imagine how angry I was when the next time my diary was opened, it was Ginny who was writing to me, not you. She saw you with the diary, you see, and panicked. What if you found out how to work it, and I repeated all her secrets to you? What if, even worse, I told you who'd been strangling roosters? So the foolish little brat waited until your dormitory was deserted and stole it back."

I'm glad someone looked it back up before I had to. Ginny stole the diary for personal reasons, according to Tom, who had no qualms about admitting other stuff he had made Ginny do. He didn't even want Ginny to take it back, so he didn't make her do it. That's just not canon, and a false way to make Ginny look better than she was.

But I doubt if Ginny will be able to help Harry much, becuse the things she DID do under Tom's control are the things she does not remember, and 16 year old Tom and present day Voldemort are quite different anywway..

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 22, 2006 1:52 am (#1669 of 2152)

Hi all, I wish that Harry would tell Ginny about the Horcruxes. I think that at some point he will, she could have a lot of info. for Harry about LV. Like you were saying about TMR talking to her in the diary. There is one thing that Harry, Hermione and Ron have not thought about, and that is the necklace that was at #12GP Ginny saw it there, as did the others. But they have not remembered it yet. Maybe she will remember it when Harry talks to her. Ginny has seen a lot of loss, because of LV. Just to name a few, there were her two uncles on her mom's side, the time out of her own life when he took her over, also that she almost died at that point. And then there is everything that has happened to Harry, she loves him and takes all of this personally. Also LV tried to kill her Dad at the MoM and now look at what Grayback did to her brother Bill, on LV's orders,when they were fighting at Hogwarts. Ginny has a lot of reasons to want LV to be brought down. I myself have always liked Ginny, from the time she stood up for Harry at the book store. JKR has let us in on some good stuff about Ginny, that she has not even put in the books yet. Like the 7th daughter of the 7th daughter thing and just how powerful that will make her. Of cores JKR did put Ginny in the Slug Club, to let us know that there is something more there. That puts Ginny in there with people like LV, Lily Potter, Hermione etc. etc.. Also when Ginny stole the diary from Harry, it was just after she had found out how powerful the diary was, and what it had made her do. Ginny was going after the book to keep Harry from finding out about how she felt about him in part. But mainly it was to protect Harry from the book! She had just tried to flush the book to get rid of it, that dose not sound like she wanted it for herself.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 2:43 am (#1670 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Ginny might indeed have some useful information. Tom said, in the Chamber, that she wrote to him and he wrote back to her. If he mentioned things like where the orphans went in the country on holiday, that might be useful to Harry's Horcrux hunt as Voldemort's Horcruxes are all hidden in places linked with Voldemort's past.

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shadzar - Oct 22, 2006 2:55 am (#1671 of 2152)

It seems likely that LV might have opened up a bit to Ginny to relax her into submission to be controlled by him. Woudl he tell her the truth though or lie to her about things? If he told the truth she may know a good bit about LV past. If he lied then she would have known since 50 years worth of history could have proven difficult for the 16 yr in the memory to keep his story straight since Ginny could research things the diary said to her. Odds lean towards him telling her truths, but were they information that could be helpful or just mudane daily life issues of teens?

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Lina - Oct 22, 2006 7:22 am (#1672 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I don't think that Harry needs to tell Ginny about the Horcruxes. And I don't think that Diary Tom would be able to tel her anything about the other Horcruxes because I think that the Diary was the first. But she could still give Harry some valuable information about Voldemort, like his reaction under certain circumstances, his way of thinking, or, like S.E. Jones mentioned, some important place.

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Steve Newton - Oct 22, 2006 7:28 am (#1673 of 2152)

Librarian
Die, you say "Ginny stole the diary for personal reasons, according to Tom, who had no qualms about admitting other stuff he had made Ginny do." Personally, I think that Voldemort is a very good liar. I believe nothing that he says. Even when hen tells the truth it will be so edited as to be untrustworthy.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 22, 2006 12:24 pm (#1674 of 2152)

Whether she stole the diary for personal reasons or not, she's still an eleven-year-old girl.

The character aside, eleven-year-old girls have their own set of difficulties, especially going to a new school. Then, there's the dreaded angst of all the changes going on in their bodies, so add an influx of hormones to a new situation, and a girl that age can hardly be expected to behave in an ideal manner.

Maybe it's because I remember what it was like at that age, but girls and boys both are still minors because they DON'T have what it takes to make the right decisions.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 22, 2006 3:22 pm (#1675 of 2152)

like Cindysuewho45, I too thought that Ginny took the book from Harry's room to protect Harry from the Diary. Previously she tried to flush it down the toilet because she knew it was dangerous. It is also possible she didn't want to get caught so that she may have had two reasons for retrieving the diary. Also like Steve Newton said, Voldemort is a liar (remember he accused Hagrid of raising werewolf pups). The point is doing something for a noble reason is easier to do if it benefits you as well.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 23, 2006 12:19 pm (#1676 of 2152)

Riddle was LYING?

If Ginny fans are admitting that things specifically stated about her in CANON are lies, I would be happy to really run with that.

Come on, what evidence do we have that Riddle was lying? He's not a big liar. He's more evasive and secretive. The one that Harry specifically sees as a cool liar is Ginny. That is also canon.

And if we are going to acknowledge that Ginny changed as she grew up, we almost have to be fair and admit that he changed during the process of going from Riddle to Voldemort as well.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2006 12:30 pm (#1677 of 2152)

It really doesn't matter if it was Riddle or Ginny who got the diary back. She was only eleven, and I honestly don't see why so much more is expected of a little girl than what is expected of all the other characters.

They've all told lies, at least the major characters. Every person on the face of this Earth has told a lie before, even if it's something that isn't important such as saying "fine" when asked how you are, when you're really feeling horrible. To hold Ginny to a higher standard just isn't right.

We also don't know that Voldemort isn't a big liar. JKR herself said he was lying about the werewolf cubs, so if he would lie about that, why wouldn't he lie about other things?

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 23, 2006 12:38 pm (#1678 of 2152)

Because he lied about the werewolf cubs for his own benefit, to demean Hagrid and rattle Harry. Ginny stole the diary for her own benefit, according to him. Tha'ts where it gets interesting.

Now, if you want to argue that telling Harry that could serve the same purpose, that's different. He might have, or it could be true. But I think odds are against it, since Harry was not as close to Ginny as to Hagrid at that point. Riddle did know, however, at that point that Harry and Ginny were not that close. She had been whining to him about whether or not Harry would ever be able to like her. Harry would not even have gone after her with Ron, if Lockhart hadn't of been a fraud. They had every intention of telling Lockhart what they knew, according to canon, and sending HIM after Ginny.

We also have the possibilty Jo goofed about the cubs,and then had to come up with an excuse to clean it up, like she did when she wrote Flint in for his 8th year, and then excused it by saying he failed. Did she mean to fail him, or was it a minor point, that she made a mistake on and had to explain away?

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Steve Newton - Oct 23, 2006 12:58 pm (#1679 of 2152)

Librarian
"Riddle was LYING?" One of the cardinal rules of Potterdom is never take a characters word for it. Dumbledore and Hermione are the seeming exceptions, mostly. I don't have my book but as I recall it Voldemort told several lies in the COS. Some people consider being evasive and secretive as lying. I'm not one but, there you go.

If you can't take a characters word for it how do you know what to believe? Great question. Confirmation from other characters doesn't hurt. Do we ever see an omnipotent narrator? I once thought that I had this narrator stuff down but am now getting confused.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 23, 2006 12:58 pm (#1680 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Die Zimtzicke --We also have the possibilty Jo goofed about the cubs,and then had to come up with an excuse to clean it up, like she did when she wrote Flint in for his 8th year, and then excused it by saying he failed. Did she mean to fail him, or was it a minor point, that she made a mistake on and had to explain away?--

All writers do that to some extent, look at Glorfindel from Tolkien's work. He killed the guy off and then sent him after Frodo. When fans complained he used a dead character, he could've just said that the guy was named after the great hero, but no, he made up this huge story about how he was allowed to come back to life because he was just nifty. All writers goof occassionally, something like making Flint repeat a year seems pretty mundane to me in comparrison.

Anyway, I agree that Ginny got the diary back because she was afraid of getting in trouble, but what's wrong with that? Why is that so unforgivable of an 11-year-old girl? She knew she'd done some horrible things (like killing the chickens) and that's why she tried to flush the book, so what if she was worried that people would find out and she'd get expelled? I don't really see what the big debate is.....

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Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2006 1:03 pm (#1681 of 2152)

I agree with that, Sarah.

Harry was afraid of being expelled more than once, and he isn't always truthful either. Ginny is no different than any of the characters as far as lying or doing something to get out of trouble.

Even the ghosts do things that are wrong, or at least Nick did in CoS when he dropped the Vanishing Cabinet to distract Filch.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 24, 2006 1:36 pm (#1682 of 2152)

Voldemort doesn't understand love. It never occured to him that Lily would sacrifice herself to save her son. It never occured to him when he possessed Harry in book 5, that Harry could put a positive spin on death and see it as reuniting with his relatives and therefore causing Voldemort so much pain. If Ginny retrieved the diary to prevent Harry from reading it and becoming possessed, this particular motive would never occur to Tom because Tom himself has made himself incapable of feeling love. Therefore he could only assume that Ginny had selfish motives just like himself.

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journeymom - Oct 24, 2006 1:39 pm (#1683 of 2152)

Good point, rambkowalczyk.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 27, 2006 2:16 am (#1684 of 2152)

Hi all, rambkowalczyk, I just love how you put that in your post, and agree with you 100%!TMR had know way of knowing what made Ginny go to Harry's room, because it was love that motived her to risk going into Harry's room to look for the diary. She did not want to see Harry in any kind of danger at all. Just like when she stood up for him at the book store with Draco. All of her words that she put into the diary were gone, they disappeared. Why would she think that all of her words were going to come back on to the pages, when they had been disappearing all along. Ginny knew that the diary was dangers, that is why she tried to destroy it herself. And that is why she went to take it out of Harrry's room.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 28, 2006 10:25 am (#1685 of 2152)

If Ginny knew the diary was dangerous when she stole it back from Harry, explain to me why she started writing in it again, and didn't try another way to destroy it, or at least try to get help at that point.

I'm sorry, but it's in the book that she stole it so Harry wouldn't learn her secrets and that she continued to write to Tom. Anything else is just not canon. If we're going to say information in the books is not correct, we can't depend on anything we read, so that means all theorizing based on book information is useless. I don't want to believe that.

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Choices - Oct 28, 2006 10:41 am (#1686 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Die Z - "If Ginny knew the diary was dangerous when she stole it back from Harry, explain to me why she started writing in it again, and didn't try another way to destroy it, or at least try to get help at that point."

The only thing I can come up with is that Tom was possessing Ginny, but she has times where she fights the possession and realizes what is going on. She tries to get rid of the diary, Harry finds it, and then Ginny gets scared and doesn't want Harry to find out how much she likes him, etc. Tom gets a stronger hold on her and more or less forces her to begin writing in the diary again. She did try to tell Harry and Ron what was happening to her, but was interrupted by Percy coming to the table and she ran away.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 29, 2006 7:12 pm (#1687 of 2152)

That explanation also has to go against canon, though. Tom asked Harry to imagine his displeasure when Ginny started writing to him again, instead of Harry. Ergo, he didn't force her to do it.

That excuse also assumes again that Tom's lying, which is awkward because the information we get from him can be seen as important when it comes to understanding Voldemort.

And Ginny writing in the diary again it brings back the point that Ginny could NOT have stolen the diary out of love for Harry, because, #1, eleven year old Ginny could not have really loved Harry. She didn't even really know him, and #2, she still wanted her imaginary friend back, to talk to, even knowing he was dangerous.

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 30, 2006 9:56 am (#1688 of 2152)

Hi all, hi Die Zimtzicke. Ok, lets look at your argument against Ginny. You say that sense Tom said something in the book, it is cannon. And it can not be any other way, you say that "Anything else is just not cannon""If we're going to say that information in the books is not correct, we can't depend on anything we read, so that means all theorizing based on book information is useless." You said that you don't want to believe this. Well that is good! Because, your argument against Ginny, with regards to what Tom said, would mean that when Snape said in the book, when talking to Narica and Bella. That he Snape, lied to DD on LV's orders and that he has always been loyal to LV. That this is cannon and we can not look at it any other way, according to what you said about Ginny and Tom! I could be wrong, but don't you believe that Snape is a good guy? Because with the way you are arguing this, that would not work out for you. You can not have it one way for Ginny and the other for Snape! But it was a good try!
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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 30, 2006 12:17 pm (#1689 of 2152)

I have no idea of what you just said, but I'll try to sort it out anyway.

All I know is that there is no evidence Ginny had any other motive in taking the diary than the one stated. She did nothing to make the diary more safe. She did not try again to destroy it. She continued to write in it. She worried most when she got out of the Chamber about being expelled, with not even a thought for the hardship she had caused others, which can also be construed as selfish. She was selfish and foolish with the diary, not noble or heroic. If she had been heroic, she would have gotten help sooner instead of letting Harry be blamed for petrifying people, or showed some remorse instead of being "perfectly happy" once she was off the hook.

I don't think Snape is good OR bad. I think he's complex and gray, which is not how Ginny comes across to me. Snape has nothing to do with how I see Ginny. He's important to the plot; she is not. He has always, in his role as a double agent, played both sides against the middle. It would have changed the plot completely if he had admitted to Bella and Narcissa that he was in the Order. It would not have changed th plot at all to show another motive for Ginny trashing Harry's room and taking back the diary, or for her to have thought about anyone else than herself at the end.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 30, 2006 12:42 pm (#1690 of 2152)

It doesn't matter what her motives were since she was only eleven years old. She is in her first year at a new school, has been possessed by an evil wizard, and was certainly scared about quite a few things.

If she had been older, say fifteen or sixteen, and had been at school for a few years, it would be another matter, but she's only a small girl and can hardly be expected to be noble or heroic.

Harry himself has lied, hidden things, and committed his fair share of non-heroic things, so why can't Ginny be given the same break he's given?

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 31, 2006 5:10 pm (#1691 of 2152)

Because, as I just said, she is a minor character, who does not seem to affect the major plot points, at least so far. Harry is the protagonist. They are nowhere near on the same level in importance to the story.

I hope we are not suggesting that small children should keep dangerous secrets and not tell anyone that should know about them, just because they are scary secrets. Children should always tell, no matter what their age, when they know something is happening that puts themselves or other children in danger. Ginny was a horrible role model in that, considering how many fans think she is a wonderful example of girl power.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 7:31 pm (#1692 of 2152)

Die, I so like to read your posts regarding the Weasley family. I am pleased that you at least see Ron in a good light. You must be a pure blood at heart.

Please understand, I say all this very very tongue in cheek. The Weasley family is no Brady Bunch but, the are endearing. They are not the Walton family either. Actually they are a bit like the Walton family. Wandering off now. (I say, Put Out That Light).

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cindysuewho45 - Oct 31, 2006 9:09 pm (#1693 of 2152)

Hi all, Dose anyone think that Ginny could end up being a Animagus? She has the 7th child of the 7th thing going for her. Ginny is in the Slug Club, and very gifted. She has also been referred to as setting like a cat etc.. This may be a way for her to help Harry or see that he is doing okay.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 1, 2006 12:21 am (#1694 of 2152)

It doesn't matter if Ginny is a main character or not. The character is still a small girl.

No, I'm hardly suggesting that children keep dangerous secrets, but if Harry could when he was eleven, then the same should go for Ginny.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 3:32 am (#1695 of 2152)

Let it snow!
I have to agree with Weeny Owl. I'm not that surprised that an 11-year-old girl might be a bad role model. I mean, at 11, you should have role models, not be one. She seems to have changed a good deal since CoS, so there's some room to debate that she might become an even more important character in Book 7 as her role has been increasing since around GoF.

cindysuewho45, that's an interesting thought. I think we've talked about the cat references before, I wonder if anyone has typed them all out? It certainly is a possibility. I'm curious, is her wand wood and core ever mentioned?

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Lina - Nov 1, 2006 5:31 am (#1696 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Die Zimtzicke: Ginny was a horrible role model in that, considering how many fans think she is a wonderful example of girl power.

Die Zimtzicke, I can accept that we might not agree on Ginny as a character or on a way that she was written, but I must say that it is my feeling that you have slightly exaggerated here. What does being a role model mean? Does it mean that a role model is not allowed to make mistakes? I find that kind of model hardly acceptable even for the best of the kids. Who is that person that grew up without making any mistake an being always obedient to their parents? I find it really amazing how many different characters JKR described in her books and all of them so realistic that you could imagine meeting any of them walking down your own street. At least I could.

At 11, Ginny was just a little girl, pretty confused, maybe even scared to go away from home to Hogwarts. She found a Diary in her cauldron, among her school books. She had no idea who put it there, she probably thought that it was something that her parents bought for her and that her parents thought that it was OK. I can't see what else could she think. I'd say that that was a perfect Lucius' idea how to handle the Diary. Any of the elder kids might have find it suspicious, but not Ginny who was confused already and had no idea what to expect. By the time she realized that there was something wrong with it, she tried to talk to Ron about it, but Percy stopped her. Oh, I would gladly smack Percy's face at that moment, but that was obviously necessary for the plot and it fits in Percy's character so much - to be selfish and egocentric. But it doesn't show that Ginny was selfish, I'm sorry. She was just confused and frightened. And I guess that every kid needs to go through that kind of experience to realize that their parents are really giving them important and valuable advices. And I have to say that by the way she was written in OotP I got the feeling that she understood that lesson.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 1, 2006 10:44 am (#1697 of 2152)

Arthur makes it clear that Ginny should have known something like the diary was dangerous, so I'm not sure why she would have thought they knew about it or thought it was okay. They certainly were not the types of parents who could afford to buy unexpected gifts, especially ones that contradict what they seem to have taught their children.

Percy is also a member of the Weasley family,and he was not egocentric in CoS as I see it. He was the only one who seemed to notice something was wrong with Ginny. Granted he was wrong, when he told the twins to stop scaring her because he thought it was upsetting her, and thought she might be ill, and forced her to take pepperup potion, but he exhibited a lot of concern for her in that book compared to other people.

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Thom Matheson - Nov 1, 2006 11:13 am (#1698 of 2152)

Wasn't he worried about her seeing him kissing his girlfriend or something. Not sure, I have no book. Just trying to recall from memory. I know that he did that somewhere.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 1, 2006 1:11 pm (#1699 of 2152)

Yes, Thom, at one point he was, but before that he was genuinely concerned for her.

As Lina said, why would Ginny suspect that the diary was a bad thing? It was with her school supplies, so why wouldn't she think a family member had given it to her?

Even if she should have suspected, having been around enough eleven-year-old girls, they don't always make the best decisions. There's a reason why the legal age, at least in the U.S., is eighteen and not eleven.

Still, if Harry can do the same type of thing when he was eleven, why can't other characters, even Ginny?

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journeymom - Nov 1, 2006 2:10 pm (#1700 of 2152)

Indeed, Harry was seventeen when he made the same mistake with the Prince's potions text.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#1701 of 2152)
Let it snow!
I don't think she figured one of her family gave her the diary, but I could see her thinking it had accidentally been put in her sack at Flourish and Blotts and not telling anyone when she found a friend in its pages.

I think most of us agree that at age 11, most people are not in a position to be a good role model. They're still looking for role models themselves, not worrying about being one, and thus will make more mistakes than someone older, although an older person may make bigger mistakes.

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Mediwitch - Nov 1, 2006 6:48 pm (#1702 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
There's a good reason why 11-year-olds aren't legal adults. In "the real world", 11-year-olds don't have the neuronal maturity in the frontal lobe of the brain to be good decision makers (it's part of what's known as Executive Functioning). Jo writes believable characters. Ginny, as an 11-year-old, should be expected to make some bad judgment calls.

And there are an awful lot of young people ('tweens and teens) who know what their parents advise, but choose not to do it. Often it's the "It won't happen to me" syndrome.

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Thom Matheson - Nov 1, 2006 6:51 pm (#1703 of 2152)

She has also grown up being the girl in a family of 7 kids. Other then Molly she has no real friends, no class mates as she hasn't started school as yet. So here comes the big overwelming castle all the horror stories told by her twin brothers, and she finds this diary stuffed in with all her other stuff. She starts writing down her secrets and fears, and lo and behold, her diary talks back to her. How cool to have her first true friend to confide in. Before she knows it she has been sucked in by only the greatest dark wizard that has ever brandished a wand. Like she can compete with that.

Why do you think that Lucius hand picked her? So what happens to her? She becomes very popular, turns out she is a better flyer then her brothers, including Charlie, comes out of her shell to be a bonifide card carrying DA heroine. She has come a long way.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 6:51 pm (#1704 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Mediwitch --Often it's the "It won't happen to me" syndrome.--

Which is also based on neural maturity, not just psychological maturity.

--comes out of her shell to be a bonifide card carrying DA heroine--

LOL, Thom, that line was funny!

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Mediwitch - Nov 1, 2006 6:53 pm (#1705 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Agreed, Sarah!

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Chemyst - Nov 4, 2006 7:47 am (#1706 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
#2, she still wanted her imaginary friend back, to talk to, even knowing he was dangerous. - Die Z

It doesn't matter what her motives were since she was only eleven years old. ... If she had been older, say fifteen or sixteen, and had been at school for a few years, it would be another matter -Weeny Owl

I think the motive matters insofar as the readers are in desperate need of character development if this girl is destined to be Harry's soul mate, even if it is simply as a baseline for us to see what she will have matured from.

And that is why I don't think this was a case of her wanting an imaginary friend back. I think it is the clumsy beginning of her realizing that she doesn't want to be a victim. She has always been the baby and she wants to grow up. She is way too embarrassed to go to her head of house for advice and tries to deal on her own by flushing the diary... ran into a spot of bad luck by not checking for Myrtle first though.

I think her attempt to retrieve the diary was still directed toward eventually getting rid of it but that she just couldn't resist telling Tom what she was going to do; at which point he was able to manipulate her and lure her further into his scheme. The incident portrayed her as naive, even though she grew up in a family of purebloods. She would begin changing at this point; not wanting to be "the baby" anymore. And one way to feel more grown up is to find a boyfriend. It makes perfect "juvenile-sense" in her character development.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 4, 2006 6:40 pm (#1707 of 2152)

Jo spoke about spells recently on her site. She talked about the fact that a jinx is irritating, but amusing. She also talked about how a hex involves dark magic. (Yes, I'm paraphrasing!) Any comments on the only spell we know Ginny can do well...the bat bogey hex, in light of Jo's statements?

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S.E. Jones - Nov 4, 2006 7:54 pm (#1708 of 2152)

Let it snow!
No, not really. What she actually said about Hexes was:

Hexes:
Has a connotation of dark magic, as do jinxes, but of a minor sort. I see ‘hex’ as slightly worse. I usually use ‘jinx’ for spells whose effects are irritating but amusing.

Yes, we see Ginny doing a "hex" but how often have we seen members of the Trio use Petrificus Totalus, the full Body-Bind, also known as the Body-Bind Curse, which is also called a Freezing Charm? Does that mean Harry is constantly doing dark magic? Personally, I see the body-bind as being very dark, but I don't necessarily think JKR works with it that way. Even though JKR has given us a working definition, it seems she picks and chooses between charm, hex, jinx, and curse almost randomly.

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Lina - Nov 5, 2006 2:00 pm (#1709 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Chemyst, I think you have said a very nice thing. Children at that age tend to think that some things happen only to them. They like to think that they are not normal, that nobody else have similar problems and that everybody will laugh at them or be angry if they confide. Unfortunately, very often that is exactly what happens. If they confide with another kid that happens to have the same problem, the chances are even bigger that the kid will laugh at them just to hide the fact that they know exactly the feeling. Children need to know that other children have similar problems as well. I think that Ginny is a perfect example for one kind of problems. Other children in the books are examples for other problems. That's why the readers find some characters more alike them and some less, and not all the readers find the same characters like more realistic.

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Muggle Doctor - Nov 16, 2006 7:01 am (#1710 of 2152)

My thoughts:

1) Ginny's vulnerability. She got sucked in, because she didn't know who or what she was dealing with. She didn't know where the diary came from (or she would have flung it far from her at the first opportunity - the Weasleys hate the Malfoys). She didn't know who Tom Riddle was (except the glorious things that the school history said about him; but it distanced itself from what he became). In many ways she is like Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels. He succumbs to the schmoozing, charming, friendly, affable face of the Dark Side, because Palpatine has been his trusted friend and confidant since he was a boy - and when it comes to making the choice, he is unable to destroy Palpatine for that reason. Luke, conversely, ALWAYS knew (as does Harry) who the enemy was. He was NEVER in danger of definitively turning. Of being forced to turn, yes, of of being killed... but never of turning out of free will.

2) Ginny's powers. She's just very good in a fight. She knows how to get through to Harry, because she can be blunt and abrasive with him. (Luna does too, but Ginny is the only one who can CONFRONT him rather than calm him and work around him the way Luna did over Sirius). She's determined, and can take the long view (never giving up on him in all this time).

3) Did Ginny absorb anything from Diary!Tom? I think not, except (as some have suggested) for an insight into how Riddle's mind works. At the end, right up until Harry actually stabbed the diary, you have to remember that Ginny wasn't just unconscious; she was dying, because Tom was using her life-force to make himself more 'real'. Whether this will benefit her against Voldemort, whose way of thinking must surely have changed since he was sixteen, is yet to be determined - but I think that's Harry's battle.

I suspect it will be Hermione's job to come up with the brilliant ideas; it might well be Ginny's job to make Harry accept them. Luna will play her part, I suspect, by coming up with crazy ideas out of left-field for Ginny to impart to Hermione as worth thinking about, for Hermione to feed back to Harry, and for Ron (perhaps) to help work out the best practical (as opposed to Hermione-theory) way to put them into action (remember his performance on the chessboard).

Once that's done, Harry will have a plan that he can use to lead the others. I somehow can't see Luna and Ginny getting left out of this once the three really start on the Horcrux hunt. If Harry's really on his own except for loose backup from R/H, I suspect Ginny, the forceful one, may well take on Harry's leadership role at Hogwarts or among those of his friends who have left it. The whole school pretty much knows they're a pair now. With the Weasleys being friends with Harry for so long, I think they'd accept Ginny speaking for him in some way.

One thing she won't do is stand on the sidelines and be the good little wifey-substitute keeping the home fires burning. She may well accept that he has to hunt and kill Voldemort himself, and she can't come along for that, but she's not going to sit around on her pretty little backside and do nothing. If she keeps any fires burning, it will be the fires of Hell into which to throw Voldemort.

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journeymom - Nov 16, 2006 11:19 am (#1711 of 2152)

I like it! Well thought out, Muggle Doc.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 16, 2006 11:43 am (#1712 of 2152)

We have no proof (Yes, I know I'm repeating myself) Ginny's good in a fight. She did nothing at the DoM after she broke her ankle, and she still had her voice and her wand. Neville had neither, but he kept fighting. In HBP, she was dodging, and darting, but what good did she do? She admitted they all could have died without the Felix.

The thing about Ginny that interests me is that so many people on various threads think that in spite of his parents, Voldemort had a CHOICE in what he became, even though Jo seems to be indicating he waas doomed from birth to be evil, because of Merope's weaknesses. There seems to be a school of thought that when Dumbledore took him at age eleven, he should have made better choices. Very few people, however, are willing to admit that Ginny at age eleven should have made better choices. Her behavior, such as writing in the diary again after she stole it back, have to be excused because she was just a child, even though she had parents who cared about her and had warned her not to get involved with things like the diary.

If it's our choices that matter, why does Ginny get a pass for continuing to communicate with evil, while Voldemort was irredeemably evil from birth because of what his parents did?

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Steve Newton - Nov 16, 2006 12:52 pm (#1713 of 2152)

Librarian
Ginny did some good fighting at Hogwarts escaping from the IS. Agreed we know next to nothing about her fighting at the MOM (I don't have the book with me and can't confirm.) But she was in the thick of it at Hogwarts again in HBP. Trading shots with the enemy is very useful whether you hit anything or not. We don't know if she did hit anything. That's the way it is in real battles. You shoot and hope for the best. Looking to see how good you did can get you dead.

I, too, am surprised that Riddle is described as seemingly evil from the first. I have known a couple of people who grew up in orphanages and they turned out pretty well so I can't blame orphanage upbringing. Unless its a literary thing, I wouldn't know. I have never read the idea that his choices after getting to Hogwarts' were the bad ones. I guess that they obviously were but as I read it he had already decided the way his life was going and that was doing harm to people.

I don't know why it bothers you that Ginny resumed writing in the diary. It seems a fairly natural thing for an 11 year old girl to do. Again, without the book handy I can go back and check the exact details.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 16, 2006 7:45 pm (#1714 of 2152)

Ginny knew something was wrong with it. She tried to destroy it. When that failed and Harry found it, she trashed his room and stole it back. Then she started writing in it again. No one but me thinks that's odd? Why didn't she try to detroy it again, if she knew it was dangerous? Why give it another chance to control her?

That's why it bothers me. She made a choice to go on with something that she had logical reasons to believe was up to no good at that point. It was a bad choice, but it gets excused because she was a little school girl.

Riddle's bad choices, to continue in the direction he was going, were bad choices, but they started when he was a child as well. But Jo seems to imply he was born evil and had/has no chance to be anything else. Since he was a child, too, I don't think he should necessarily have to be irredeemably evil when others are not. You get that sometimes with Snape, too. He hated the Marauders at school, so he has to be evil. He was a kid when it all started, too.

It's a double standard. Do your choices matter most, or not?

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Mrs Brisbee - Nov 16, 2006 8:50 pm (#1715 of 2152)

Riddle's bad choices, to continue in the direction he was going, were bad choices, but they started when he was a child as well. But Jo seems to imply he was born evil and had/has no chance to be anything else. Since he was a child, too, I don't think he should necessarily have to be irredeemably evil when others are not. You get that sometimes with Snape, too. He hated the Marauders at school, so he has to be evil. He was a kid when it all started, too.

I don't know. How many people actually have that double standard? Tom Riddle got a second chance. He had choices. Not just one at one time, but over and over he made choices to do evil. As he grew older, he grew more culpable for the choices he made. I'd say Tom Riddle had plenty of chances to be something else. He's well into his seventies now and still evil.

I'm not sure who is saying Snape is evil simply because he hated the Marauders at school. Snape has plenty of his own actions chalked up at this point that need explaining. I'm not really sure what him being a kid when it started has to do with anything. He's thirty-something already! Plenty of opportunity to make lots of choices over several decades. We don't know what he got up to at age 11 to be able to compare his actions to Ginny's at age 11.

I'm not seeing how the analogy between an 11 year old girl and two adults works. Neither Snape nor Voldemort is a little school boy at this point.

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Elanor - Nov 16, 2006 10:53 pm (#1716 of 2152)

Die: "Ginny knew something was wrong with it. She tried to destroy it. When that failed and Harry found it, she trashed his room and stole it back. Then she started writing in it again. No one but me thinks that's odd? Why didn't she try to detroy it again, if she knew it was dangerous? Why give it another chance to control her?

That's why it bothers me. She made a choice to go on with something that she had logical reasons to believe was up to no good at that point. It was a bad choice, but it gets excused because she was a little school girl. "

That bothers me too because the only explanation for this behavior is that she wanted to ask diary Tom if he had repeated to Harry what she had told him about her crush etc. Riddle says so in CoS: "What if you found out how to work it, and I repeated all her secrets to you? What if, even worse, I told you who'd been strangling roosters?" (p.230 UK paperback)

I can understand an 11 years old panicking at that thought BUT it also shows a very selfish side of her personality IMO. She was more interested in Harry not finding out about her secrets than trying to understand what had happened to her. And she was ready to risk doing these terrible things again -because she did suspect the diary was the cause of it all- just to know if Tom Riddle had repeated her secrets. That tells a lot about her priorities and characters IMO because killing roosters and attacking people would seem a far better reason to worry and panic to most people, 11 years old or not, wouldn't it?

And this is what bothers me about her: if she was ready to do that, what else is she ready to do for Harry? Her way to love him is sincere, but it is disturbing too IMO, especially in the perspective of book 7.

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Lina - Nov 17, 2006 1:52 am (#1717 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Ginny made some stupid choices, while young Tom made some evil choices, and there is a big difference between the two.
Children of that age (I have few of them at home and I am blessed with the memory of myself at that age, too) tend to be very nearsighted and are not able to see all the consequences of their actions. They appear to be selfish and just need to be trained to get rid of that. How many times I've heard my kids tell me - "But I didn't do it on purpose!" My answer is - "Yes, but you had to foresee the outcome!" That's why the kids of that age are not adults yet, because they are just training to become and have to be taught how to foresee the consequences. What Ginny did, can be compared with a kid that is walking with a bag near a table with some expensive vase on it and the bag pushes the vase and it gets broken.
What Tom did, did not happen by accident. He enjoyed torturing people and he was hurting them on purpose. Why he became like that, it will probably never be explained, but at the moment he could make a choice to forgive, he chose the revenge and it was much greater than the thing he needed to forgive. There is another thing about Riddle, he probably discovered his abilities very early in life and he also discovered the power that they give him, so very probably it was the power that made him a bad person. He can be compared with the kid that walks near the same vase and wants it to be broken.

While about Ginny, taking the Diary back and risking to do the bad things again, well, she probably thought that she was able to control the impact of the Diary and that she wouldn't let it make her do the same things again. That's just the same reason why the History keeps repeating, because people think that they are smarter than those people in the History who made mistakes. She thought she became smarter by the experience she already had. I don't see, if grown up people can act so childish, why an 11 year old can't?

I can see her still being childish at 16, yet less childish than she was at 11.

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Chemyst - Nov 17, 2006 6:50 am (#1718 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Then she started writing in it again. No one but me thinks that's odd?

No, not really. I think it would be a tremendous temptation for an 11 year-old who has no one else to comfortably talk with about it to give in to the "just one more time and then I'll destroy it" rationalization. It shows how deeply she has tried to hide her secret fixation for Harry from other friends and family. She would desperately want to know if that secret was out. And I can see her wanting to threaten the diary "just one last time" that she planned to get rid of it. Her "one last time" became Riddle's "gotcha."

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Thom Matheson - Nov 17, 2006 8:18 am (#1719 of 2152)

You guys don't think that Riddle planted that seed of doubt in her? He was after all controlling her by that time and wanted Harry to get the book. This is for me just another example that Riddle/Voldemort planned and controlled his victims.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 17, 2006 9:29 am (#1720 of 2152)

I don't think she tried to hide her fixation that much. She talked about him all summer at the Burrow. Ron said so, and she sent Harry the stupid Valentine about the Dark Lord.

And I don't know what seed of doubt we're talking about, since Harry was ignoring her romantically at that time. They were just eleven and twelve. He wanted to help her out of the chamber because she was Ron's sister, but Harry never even planned to go rescue her. He and Ron were going to tell Lockhart what they knew so he could do it. They only went themselves because Lockhart turned out to be a fraud. Harry never had even planned to go save Ginny.

What was she doubting?

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Thom Matheson - Nov 17, 2006 10:04 am (#1721 of 2152)

Die, purhaps I am going movie here, but I was under the impression that Voldemort changed his mind about his goal with Ginny and started, thru Ginny, to focus on Harry. He used her to get to Harry. That is what I meant by "seed of doubt". Do you disagree that Ginny was being controlled by Riddle/Voldemort into doing the things that she did? I don't necessarily want to say Imperioused, per cea, but what ever that thought control device was.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 17, 2006 1:28 pm (#1722 of 2152)

She was controlled, but she supposedly did not know what she was doing when she was controlled. That's why I don't think anything she learned from Riddle can be useful later, which is a common theory regarding Ginny. I wish the chamber incident hadn't been dropped so completely. I think a lot of interesting things could have come out of that. I think it was the fact that she kept comign to and not knowing where she was that scared her, and once she connected it with the diary, it was stupid to start writing in it again.

But Voldemort never had a goal with Ginny, because he didn't choose her to take the diary to Hogwarts. Lucius did. Voldemort didn't even know Lucius had used the diary, did he? Young Tom Riddle did, but he was destroyed.

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journeymom - Nov 17, 2006 2:43 pm (#1723 of 2152)

Is it fair to compare 11 y.o. Ginny to 11 y.o. Tom Riddle? I don't think we're meant to. In fact, I think it's obvious. What's your gut reaction, upon thinking of Ginny side by side with Tom? Don't analyze it. Just your impression. Ginny is normal, Tom is not. He was already a manipulative, power hungry creep who delighted in the pain and fear of others. I'm not going to categorize Ginny as 'Good' but as normal. Capable of good and bad choices, like any other normal human. We can analyze her motivations and actions till the cows come home and come to our own conclusions but ultimately we have to ask, do we think this is how JKR intends us to see Ginny? Think about it, we're heading into the end of the story, the goal is for Harry to destroy all the horcruxes and ultimately defeat Voldemort. There will be some surprises along the way, but JKR is not going to reveal that Ginny has grown up to be a manipulative, deceitful and selfish person, and an ineffective fighter to boot. Is it possible that JKR simply didn't effectively characterize Ginny? Sure. Perhaps it requires chutzpa on my part, but it seems clear to me what JKR intends us to believe about Ginny.

By the way, my daughter is 11 years old. She and her friends are all deceitful and selfish sometimes. All of us adults, teachers and parents alike, are clear in our minds that this is normal behavior, neither good nor bad. Their actions require guidance and consequences and ultimately, forgiveness.

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Laura W - Nov 18, 2006 2:43 am (#1724 of 2152)

Two very tiny points (but that's what we do here).

1. "I don't think she tried to hide her fixation that much. She talked about him all summer at the Burrow. Ron said so, and she sent Harry the stupid Valentine about the Dark Lord." (Die Z)

Ok, I don't think it was a stupid Valentine at all. We are talking about an 11-year-old girl with a crush on a 12-year-old boy. She wrote him a lovely, very flattering poem - at an 11-year-old level - to express how she felt about him; and Harry, being 12 years old and not the least bit interested in his best friend's baby sister, was embarrassed as heck. All as it would be.

2."Do you disagree that Ginny was being controlled by Riddle/Voldemort into doing the things that she did? I don't necessarily want to say Imperioused, per cea, but what ever that thought control device was." (Thom Matheson)

Well, Dumbledore tells the Weasleys that Tom enchanted (a term of magic) Ginny. From CoS, chapter 18:

"What interests me most is how Lord Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny, when my sources tell me he is currently in hiding in the forests of Albania." and, on the next page, "This has been a terrible ordeal for her. There will be no punishment. Older and wiser wizards than she have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort."

Laura

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Chemyst - Nov 18, 2006 6:28 am (#1725 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Older and wiser wizards than she have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort. CS18

We know Harry was hoodwinked into flying to the MoM in OP, and I guess he was a little bit older. But even aside from that, that quote always seemed as if it was intended as a major clue about the fate of some important adult in the series.

As for the "stupidity" of the Valentine, it was sent with the intention of remaining anonymous. People have complained that the HBP Ginny just came out of nowhere and there was not enough earlier character development to make her ship with Harry seem genuine. But I believe JKR put a couple major hints in the backdrop of CS.

Sure, Ginny had talked about Harry during the summer– and knowing her brothers, probably was heavily teased because of it. In an 11 year-old's logic, the risk of teasing & rejection is all the more reason to try to hide it from Harry at Hogwarts. Every likelihood was that Harry would have cared far more about what Ron thought than about how she felt. But her feelings were intense enough to risk sending an anonymous valentine through a teacher-sanctioned (Lockhart) method.

JKR has included indications that Ginny's character development was occurring out of sight of Harry. As readers, we don't see a lot because it was, well, kept intentionally out of Harry's sight.

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Muggle Doctor - Nov 18, 2006 7:45 am (#1726 of 2152)

You've got to bear in mind, too, that Ginny's scatterbrained behaviour in crushing on Harry at age 11 is not just to do with being besotted with an older boy.

It's got a lot to do with who that older boy is. Of all the people in the world she develops a crush on, it has to be the ONE person to whom even adults defer as the saviour of the wizarding world (however accidental). No wonder it gives her such feelings of inadequacy as to strike her mute in his presence. Nor does it surprise me at all that the only cure for this is to try hard to love others and distract herself, so that she can actually relate to Harry as a human being and not as some sort of demigod (which, let's face it, almost everyone except Voldemort-sympathetic wizards does, and which Harry very quickly becomes sick to death of).

(I know this isn't a shipping thread, but the way Ginny relates to Harry and - since book six - vice versa is such an integral part of both characters' behavioural traits as to constitute a valid point of discussion in both their forums.)

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Eponine - Nov 18, 2006 8:21 am (#1727 of 2152)

That's why I don't think anything she learned from Riddle can be useful later, which is a common theory regarding Ginny. - Die

No, she won't be able to remember anything from when she was being controlled. However, not all of her interactions with Diary!Tom were while she was under his control.

We do know, from the way that Harry interacted with the diary, that it was possible (and highly likely) that Tom was doing to the same thing to Ginny. Talking back to her, telling her about his life at Hogwarts, perhaps even showing her some of his memories (which may have been false, we know it's possible to alter memories). I doubt that Tom told Ginny anything that he thought was vitally important (like a list of Horcruxes and their locations =), but as Dumbledore said, it's important to know about Voldemort's past.

I don't know if she has information that she might not realize is important, but it is possible.

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TomProffitt - Nov 24, 2006 10:03 pm (#1728 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
"I don't know if she has information that she might not realize is important, but it is possible." --- Eponine

Harry has to find and destroy four Horcruxes, only one of which he has a concrete idea of what it is and where to find it. Harry is going to need a lot of help to find those Horcruxes and it wouldn't be at all unreasonable for Rowling to have some of that help come from Ginny.

I wouldn't say I expect it, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

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painting sheila - Nov 26, 2006 11:09 pm (#1729 of 2152)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
We don't know if Ginny retained any of it or if she wrote it down in a diary once she "snapped out of" one of Tom's trances. If she thought they were just dreams, she may have written them down to try and figure out later - or maybe she can remove some of her thoughts and look at them in a Pensieve or something. She may not "remember" the journey's into Tom's diary - but they may be in her head anyway.

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cindysuewho45 - Nov 29, 2006 2:39 am (#1730 of 2152)

Hi all, I was still thinking about Ginny being able to turn into a cat. In Quick Quotes / Madam Scoops / (things we know from interviews etc,) General book info. / Book 7 / (summaries & Quotes). It says, is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (ie Mrs. Figgs cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat etc) JKR : "Ooooo, another good question. Lets see what can I tell you without giving anything away ... em ... no, can't do it sorry" This would be a great side plot to work into the story. So Ginny could look in on Harry and see he is Ok..

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Laura W - Nov 29, 2006 3:15 am (#1731 of 2152)

Another unregistered animagus? That's getting pretty old if it's going to be used again. Besides, it took the Marauders three years of hard work - I believe Lupin said - to accomplish their transformation, which came in their fifth year. I know that on more than one occasion Ginny is said to be sitting curled up like a cat, etc., not to mention that Ron tells Harry in CoS that Ginny is fond of cats. But I hope she doesn't become one in Book Seven. No offense, Cindysue.

Laura

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journeymom - Nov 29, 2006 10:16 am (#1732 of 2152)

Well, exactly. She's still only 16 y.o.? If it takes a few years of hard work to become an animagus, perhaps she isn't finished yet, so wouldn't be registered. If she were to train to become an animagus, there's no saying she won't register when she finishes.

I'm not sure I care if she becomes one or not, but cindy brings up a good point about canon evidence. Plus, there are a few times Ginny is described in cat-like terms. Also, JKR has hinted that Ginny is powerful and has potential to do or be something significant. I haven't seen her do anything magically exceptional other than specializing in the bat bogey hex. Perhaps being an animagus would be her exceptional talent. This is all supposition. (As are all our predictions, I guess! Lol!)

==================

Edited to add: she's also especially good in Quidditch.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 29, 2006 11:51 am (#1733 of 2152)

The problem I have with equating Ginny with a cat is that Jo has repeatedly said she dislikes cats. Also none of the other cats are very appealing, such as Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Mrs. Norris and McGonagall. Most people who suggest Ginny as a cat seem to see it as a favorable thing. There is no really strong precedent for that in the books.

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Chemyst - Nov 29, 2006 11:57 am (#1734 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I wonder if there is a diff... what the differences are between transfiguring into an animal and becoming the animagus form. A detailed discussion should go on another thread; but briefly, (like Viktor's fish head,) I think a transfiguration charm would be easier for Ginny to pull off, even if it cannot be sustained for a long period of time or is at risk of someone else performing a counter-spell that could undo it.

Generally though, I don't see the story going that direction. Still... Ginny did seem pretty "understanding" about the breakup, so maybe she does have a few tricks in mind.

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TomProffitt - Nov 29, 2006 12:39 pm (#1735 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
"Ginny did seem pretty "understanding" about the breakup, so maybe she does have a few tricks in mind." --- Chemyst

I figure that Ginny is just going to ignore "the break up" and continue as though nothing has changed. Harry will never figure it out. The whole idea seems absurd to me anyway, I think it's too late for Harry to protect those that are close to him by disassociating himself with them now. The cat's out of the bag (so to speak).

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Steve Newton - Nov 29, 2006 1:05 pm (#1736 of 2152)

Librarian
I think you nailed it Tom. Ginny has a history of getting what she wants and Harry's friends are already marked and are targets.

I think that Crookshanks has gotten pretty decent treatment as has Minerva. Mrs. Norris certainly seems to have a negative image.

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journeymom - Nov 29, 2006 3:27 pm (#1737 of 2152)

"Harry will never figure it out." Lololol! Poor guy! And yes, there's no reason LV couldn't do something nefarious to Ron or Hermione, either.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 30, 2006 12:26 pm (#1738 of 2152)

That's what bothers me...why would Harry break up with Ginny to protect her, but agree to Ron and Hermione coming along? It is NOT that he doesn't care about them, too. I'm postive he does. Ron means more to him than anyone. He always has and always will. Ron's support and approval are at the root of almost everything Harry does.

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Steve Newton - Nov 30, 2006 12:54 pm (#1739 of 2152)

Librarian
My, often shaky, memory says that Dumbledore asked him to include Ron and Hermione.

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journeymom - Nov 30, 2006 1:40 pm (#1740 of 2152)

I remember something like that, too, Steve. But I also remember Ron and Hermione's tone of voice (can you say that about written words?) indicated they would brook no argument and they were coming with whether he approved or not. He doesn't seem to be agonizing about their coming along, either.

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 30, 2006 9:40 pm (#1741 of 2152)

I think Dumbledore told him that he could confide in them. Dumbledore never told him to take them horcrux hunting as far as I know. Dumbledore hadn't even gotten around to telling HARRY where to go horcrux hunting next. Anyone got a page number for that if I'm wrong, because it just doesn't seem right to me and I want to be sure.

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Meoshimo - Dec 2, 2006 9:41 am (#1742 of 2152)

You're right, Die. Dumbledore kept telling Harry regarding all things Voldemort that Harry would be doing a disservice to his two best friends by not keeping them up to date. Dumbledore never told Harry where to look for the next horcrux(es), but he did leave him with clues that need to be sorted through.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 2, 2006 7:59 pm (#1743 of 2152)

Harry is not distracted by Ron and Hermione. He is by Ginny. He also knows how well the three of them work together. Ginny does not have the history with him. LPO

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S.E. Jones - Dec 8, 2006 2:35 pm (#1744 of 2152)

Let it snow!
We also should probably keep in mind that Harry's tried to go off without Ron and Hermione before, with the end result being them coming along anyway. So, wouldn't it be safer for them, in his eyes, if they're where he can see them if they're going to be following after him anyway? Ginny, on the other hand, refused to go back to the castle in OP and ended up coming, but that was really only once out of several years, so he might think that there's still the chance that she won't follow along anyway. I'm betting he's wrong, though.

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Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 2:40 pm (#1745 of 2152)

You got that right Sarah. My how Ginny has grown. She most absoulutly has a mind of her own. I also think that the big three have graduated to a big four. Ginny will see to it.

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Steve Newton - Dec 8, 2006 3:14 pm (#1746 of 2152)

Librarian
I think a big six. Neville and Luna have also been in on the fun for the last two books and we know that Neville has a special grudge to settle.

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Ydnam96 - Dec 8, 2006 6:54 pm (#1747 of 2152)

I think a possibility is that his feelings for Ginny are truly different than his feelings for Ron and Hermione. He loves them, but he loves Ginny. It's hard to put the difference into words I guess. But I think he's so used to working with R & H and he's really only just seen Ginny in two ways: little sister and love of his life. He probably doesn't want to risk losing her or causing her any more pain.

Not that he doesn't care about H & R, he does, but he knows that they work well as a team and that, as S. E. Jones said, knows they're gonna come whether he likes it or not.

I'm not sure I stated that as clearly as I could have...

I think it's just a difference in the feelings he has for Ginny and R & H.

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Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 7:52 pm (#1748 of 2152)

Well one way or another Ginny is here to stay, whether Harry likes it or not. Little bit of Molly coming out.

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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 8, 2006 11:46 pm (#1749 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I think a possibility is that his feelings for Ginny are truly different than his feelings for Ron and Hermione. He loves them, but he loves Ginny. It's hard to put the difference into words I guess. But I think he's so used to working with R & H and he's really only just seen Ginny in two ways: little sister and love of his life. He probably doesn't want to risk losing her or causing her any more pain.

Ydnam, I don't remember what thread that was but a few years ago we had a thread dedicated to the different types of love, philos, eros, agape and, and..... anyway it was a great discussion and really helped in understanding the relationship between HRH and possible H-G and how those relationships may develop and why each relationship is important to the story.

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Ydnam96 - Dec 9, 2006 12:32 am (#1750 of 2152)

You know I remember that...I'll try and find it Smile

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1751 to 1800)

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Pamzter - Dec 9, 2006 10:10 am (#1751 of 2152)
I've come into the conversation kind of late, but wanted to put in my two knuts worth . . .

I'm not a shipper by any means, but I've always been surprised that readers didn't see Harry and Ginny together building from the very beginning. Maybe it's from my voracious reading of all kinds of books, which includes plenty of romances, but as soon as Harry watched Ginny run after the train in the first book I knew they'd be together. There are little clues everywhere throughout the series. The way JK wrote it and many were surprised by it, I think that was supposed to give us an idea of how it surprised Harry as well.

I'm not a huge Ginny fan, but I am a Molly fan - and I think the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, and I think they are both going to surprise us in the last book with what they can do when the people they love are in danger.

One more comment - being a person who does noble things does not mean you don't have ignoble things in your past. In fact people who do selfless things usually do it because they have learned hard lessons from making poor choices earlier in life. Especially if you're comparing decisions made between ages 11 and 13 or even 15 and 18 referring to Ginny and James maturing).

Okay, now I'm done.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 11, 2006 8:22 pm (#1752 of 2152)

I like how Ginny is strong enough to accept who Harry is and what he has to do. She will try and help, may get in the way, but she will never try and talk him out of it or question the fact he has a task to complete before they can be together in any lasting relationship. LPO

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 16, 2006 1:50 pm (#1753 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Hey Everybody, I haven't posted since before June but am trying to catch up. If I read a 1,000 or so posts everyday until July I might be caught up by the time the movie comes out. I have my own theory on Ginny and Harry.

I think that early in book 7 something will happen that alerts Harry to the fact that Ginny and Neville will be in alot more danger NOT being close by. What event occurs or how it will work out is way beyond the limits of my imagination. But thats JM2K's.

Mickey

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Regan of Gong - Dec 19, 2006 6:39 pm (#1754 of 2152)

Self declared doctor of everything.
MickeyCee! I was thinking the other day where people like yourself have gone. But you've come back.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 19, 2006 7:11 pm (#1755 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Was in mourning for DD for a long, long long time. Me and Hagrid have gone through barrels and barrels of butterbeer. Hic!

Mickey

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xray - Jan 22, 2007 11:59 am (#1756 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Thom Matheson said:
My how Ginny has grown. She most absoulutly has a mind of her own. I also think that the big three have graduated to a big four. Ginny will see to it.

Steve Newton said:
I think a big six. Neville and Luna have also been in on the fun for the last two books and we know that Neville has a special grudge to settle.

Actually I wonder about Luna. I think she's done her part and will drop out of the picture almost completely. She may come into play in book 7 in an attempt at gathering support from other houses (but that's another story), nevertheless she'll not really be much of a part of the gang.

If we look at the Ravenclaw house, we can surmise that it's primarily composed of geeks. Most geeks are introverts by nature and Luna is definately an introvert. Hence I don't think she'll go looking to join up for a horcrux hunting trip.

Ginny, as you have all remarked, has a lot of Molly in her; she can be fairly headstrong when she wants. She loves Harry and (unlike Hermione) won't try to deny him his "appetite" for confrontation, but she'll definately want to be a part of it.

Neville is in Gryffindor for a reason: we've seen how brave he is. He may be more introverted than the rest of them (sans Luna) but he's on a mission and he will not be denied.

So unless someone new comes along I see the Big Six transitioning to the Big Five.

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aggieamy - Jan 22, 2007 5:28 pm (#1757 of 2152)

I can't help but politely disagree with the Ravenclaws being labeled as geeks and introverted. Just because they're smart doesn't mean they're geeks. At my high school half the cheerleading squad was on the honor roll and you certainly can't call cheerleaders introverts or geeks.

To Ginny though ... I don't see JRK including her much more than she has done in the past. I think JRK really likes the trio and will keep it that way, which also means that she won't leave Hermione and Ron behind.

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peachespig - Jan 22, 2007 7:32 pm (#1758 of 2152)

Hmmm, Big Three vs. Big Four vs. Big Five vs. Big Six in DH... I'm gonna have to say Big Three plus the Secondary Three. I think it's going to be the Trio away from Hogwarts, and Ginny, Neville and Luna back at Hogwarts.

I really don't think Ginny will just tag along with the Trio, because I think Harry's breaking up with her has to mean something for the plot. It seemed too dramatic not to prefigure a genuine separation -- though I could see them being back in the same place from halfway through the book or so.

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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 29, 2007 9:28 am (#1759 of 2152)

I agree with what peachespig said about Big Three plus Secondary Three. I just think it's not practical for the Trio to be off chasing Horcruxes and not have a support system at Hogwarts to help them when needed. Maybe the two-way mirror from OotP will come back into play?

And I also expect to see Ginny taking on a leadership role for the Secondary Three. Regardless of her and Harry being romantically linked I think the parallels between them are strong, so it seems natural for Ginny to step into Harry's shoes in this respect.

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sstabeler - Jan 30, 2007 11:06 am (#1760 of 2152)

Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am
personally, i can see it being big four. Ginny is increasingly being part of the group. remember, at the burrow, harry almost got used to having Ginny around, Ginny hangs around the trio in the common room when she's dating Harry, personally,i think it's become a quartet. also, I highly doubt Harry will stay away from Hogwarts, I reckon he will go back. that would preclude it being a secondary trio back at hogwarts. poersoanlly, i think harry will search at hogwarts for any horcruxes there, then search in the wider world.

- Please try to use proper capitalization (capitalize 'I', the beginnings of sentences, proper names of people and places, etc.) in your posts so that everyone can read what you have written, regardless of what their primary language is. - SE Jones

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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 30, 2007 12:47 pm (#1761 of 2152)

I agree that the Trio will be at Hogwarts for some of the time - I think of a Secondary Trio more in terms of when they're NOT at Hogwarts.

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xray - Jan 30, 2007 5:11 pm (#1762 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I highly doubt Harry will stay away from Hogwarts, I reckon he will go back - sstabeler

Well we do know that Harry will most definately graduate Hogwarts in his 7th year there so I don't expect him to miss much... maybe the first week, if that.

I think Ginny will definately be more involved with the trio and that it'll become more quartetish-plus. That is, trio mainly, plus a lot of Ginny, plus more Neville than before. I don't think Luna will fit in to the scheme much so I expect her have only a few occassional appearances, ones that involve the DA.

Ginny should play a major role in the defeat of Voldemort. Given the clues from the last chapter of HBP, I'm thinking that she may get kidnapped. (I know it sounds a bit cliche but I'm ok with it.)

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sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 10:46 am (#1763 of 2152)

persoanlly, i see harry coming back at the start of term, due to pressure from mrs weasley and ginny.

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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:31 am (#1764 of 2152)

Sstabeler, that's an interesting point, but please capitalize the first letter of a sentence, proper nouns and the pronoun, 'I'. This is an international site and there are plenty of people for whom English is a second language here. Also, it's just not good grammar.

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frogface - Feb 3, 2007 12:38 pm (#1765 of 2152)

"Well we do know that Harry will most definately graduate Hogwarts in his 7th year" - xray

Do we? How do we know that?

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 3, 2007 12:52 pm (#1766 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Haven't heard of anyone going for an eighth year or continuing if they fail a course or two. Which in Harry's case is very unlikely.

Mickey

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juliebug - Feb 3, 2007 12:55 pm (#1767 of 2152)

What about Marcus Flint? I agree, it's unlikely for Harry.

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sstabeler - Feb 3, 2007 1:09 pm (#1768 of 2152)

Flint was a cover-up for a JKR error, so for atcaul canon isn't not 100% reliable. I think we can safely say it is rare for anyoen to repeat a year, and especially as you can get some jobs with only an OWL ( muggle relations comes to mind). I imagine you only repeat 7th year if you need to re-do your OWLs, not your NEWTs.

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xray - Feb 3, 2007 1:57 pm (#1769 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
"Well we do know that Harry will most definately graduate Hogwarts in his 7th year" - xray

Do we? How do we know that? - frogface

Mainly because Jo Rowling said so. Very Happy

I posted my sources on the Will Harry Return to Hogwarts? thread (under Potter-pourri). I also uploaded a short video clip on YouTube (the link is in this post in that same thread) if you're interested in watching/hearing it from the horse's mouth Smile

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frogface - Feb 3, 2007 4:11 pm (#1770 of 2152)

In all those sources she never catogorically says he's going to finish his seventh year though. I'm one of the few people who believes the seventh book will differ from the previous sixth in that Harry won't be at school. He may go to Hogwarts itself, but I don't believe he'll be there as a pupil.

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Soul Search - Feb 3, 2007 4:26 pm (#1771 of 2152)

Harry could get away with not attending classes, but Ron couldn't and Hermione wouldn't. If Ron and Hermione are going to classes, Harry might as well, too.

Voldemort can't be more important than school!

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xray - Feb 3, 2007 5:03 pm (#1772 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
she never catogorically says he's going to finish his seventh year though - frogface

I don't know...

Jo Rowling said:
I always planned that we would see Harry from starting at Hogwarts to finishing at Hogwarts
and
Yeah, one for each of his years at Hogwarts, yeah
and
he's going to be at hogwarts for seven years.

Even though she doesn't say specifically "Harry will graduate from Hogwarts in his seventh year" I think it's pretty clear.

By the way frogface, I am curious how you stand in regards to Ginny Weasley. Do you like her or hate her? I don't see a previous post from you in that respect, so I'm curious. Personally I just love her and I'm so pleased she finally got to be with Harry. I hope to see their relationship continue in DH and beyond.

Oh, if you wish to continue the discussion about Harry returning to Hogwarts, let's please move to that thread as this one is for Ginny Weasley. I'll be happy to discuss it further. Thanks!

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frogface - Feb 4, 2007 4:12 am (#1773 of 2152)

I like Ginny, because to me she parallels with Lily. In OotP she is the only one who, initially, stands up for Luna, and Lily is the only one who stands up for Snape is the pensieve scene by the lake.

I think they make a good couple because she understands him and why he has to take the dangerous path, and he knows this. At the same time though, if he's being out of line or an idiot, she's generally not afraid to tell him off. Ultimately, like any good compananion, she'll stand by him when he has difficult choices to make.

And yes you're right, we should keep appropiate discussions to appropiate threads, I just got carried away following the discussion, I forgot what thread we were in

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Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 11:52 am (#1774 of 2152)

She also reminds me of her mother

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sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 12:58 pm (#1775 of 2152)

Well, Ginny is definitely like Molly in some respects, but I can't see Molly telling harry off when he is getting irrational, I see her as being more like Lily.

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 4, 2007 1:01 pm (#1776 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
But Molly has no problem telling Mr. Weasley off when he goes overboard.

She would never tell her future son-in-law off.

Mickey

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Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 1:46 pm (#1777 of 2152)

I don't think that Molly has a problem telling anyone off

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Rosie Lu - Feb 4, 2007 8:15 pm (#1778 of 2152)

On the Ginny-Lily thing, one of my favorite things about both those characters is exactly what frogface said - the way they stick up for the underdogs. I love how Ginny always sticks up for Luna and even Neville sometimes.

Speaking of those three, I'd love it if they rebuilt the DA in DH. I can see Ginny trying to start that up again and you know Neville and Luna would be the first ones back.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 5, 2007 12:47 pm (#1779 of 2152)

Lily stuck up for Snape, but she was quick to turn on him when he called her a mudblood, so while I kind of see the parallel there, it isn't an exact one, unless you count Ginny turning on Hermione about the Quidditch after Hermione had been a good friend to her.

I see Ginny as more like James, a pureblood Quidditch player, who hexes people just because they annoy her. I really do not get the connections between Ginny and Lily, except that they both have different shades of red hair, one fiery and one auburn. I know Jo mentioned Ginny and Lily both being popular, but we didn't see Ginny being popular until HBP.

What do they really have in common in canon? I'd like more things to consider. It might help me with understanding Ginny, because I don't at all, as you all probably know.

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journeymom - Feb 5, 2007 1:14 pm (#1780 of 2152)

Hey, I like your comparison of Ginny to James. Aside from being purebloods and good at quidditch, they're both self-confident. James was so self confident he was exceedingly arrogant and I think JKR intends us to compare Draco to James. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we see Ginny use the Bat Bogey hex on someone in the Inquisitorial Squad and maybe a Death Eater? Fred and George and Slughorn mention she's skilled with the hex. Not the same as indiscriminately hexing people just walking down the hall.

We don't see Ginny being particularly popular until HBP, her 5th year, but we don't see young Lily at all, popular or no, prior to Snape's pensieve, where she's in 5th year. And it was never implied that Ginny was UNpopular prior to HBP.

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sstabeler - Feb 5, 2007 2:31 pm (#1781 of 2152)

Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 5, 2007 3:55 pm
actually, she's popular in OOTP as far as I can tell. it's while she was star-struck around harry that she wasn't popular. and as for simiralities between Ginny and Lily, you'd be surprised. 1. they both seem to be quite the catch. after all, Ginny never has any trouble finding boyfriends, does she?I imagine Lily could have chosen anyone as well. after all, can you really see James going with just anyone?( that possibly lends crecendnce to the theories that Lily actually liked James and was waiting for him to grow up) 2. both powerful witches 3. neither have much tolerance for arrogant purebloods.

there are a few differences, after all, Lily married the arrogant pure-blood once said pure-blood had grown up, Ginny is never going to marry Draco, I reckon. She's going to end up as a Potter. also, Lily doesn't seem to be that talented at quidditch ( a bit like Hermione, I reckon) while Ginny is arguably the second-best seeker at Hogwarts. not to mention probably the best remaining Chaser.

-Try to use proper capitalization (such as at the beginning of sentences) so all members, despite their primary language, can read and understand what you wrote.- SE Jones

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xray - Feb 5, 2007 4:15 pm (#1782 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 5, 2007 3:57 pm
I see Ginny as more like James, a pureblood Quidditch player, who hexes people just because they annoy her. I really do not get the connections between Ginny and Lily, except that they both have different shades of red hair, one fiery and one auburn. - DZ

Heh, doesn't it make you just love Ginny so much more? She was being pestered so much that she could not stand to put up with it any longer and *zap* Bat Bogeys! (in your face, Zacharias! *hee*) She doesn't put up with the stuff. I don't see the comparison that you see between James and Ginny. I got the impression that James was more of a grandstander and would attack someone (Snape) just for show; I didn't see that at all in Ginny. Jo has done very well to write her as a humble yet strong female character (growing up with six brothers how could she not be?) She's popular but not snotty, she doesn't think she's better than everyone else, and she's got friends who aren't cool (Luna) so clearly she's not fixated with her popularity. And speaking of Luna, that girl is so completely whacked, it says a LOT about Ginny to be her friend. It looks more to me like she's very similar to Lily. Oh, about the red hair... as redheads age, their hair darkens, so what may have been fiery red could become auburn red.

I know Jo mentioned Ginny and Lily both being popular, but we didn't see Ginny being popular until HBP.

Funny, neither did Harry... what a coincidence.

-I justed edit out one word here. Remember that children read this forum as well as adults so don't use words you wouldn't use in front of your grandmother.- SE Jones

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 5, 2007 10:19 pm (#1783 of 2152)

Okay, I'm really trying to get it here, and I'm still not getting it. Ginny hexed Zacharias on the train just for asking a question. Everyone on that train was probably gossiping, but he actually went to the source and asked, so he got hexed. And that's a good thing?

And where was she popular before HBP that we could honestly say that canonically, she was a popular girl? She was so lonely in CoS that she was writing to an enchanted book, something that her father had warned her not to do. She's often trying to horn in ont he trio, but before HBP they usually told her to go away, which she usually did in a huff.

And I think she and Luna are just aquaintances. We have no evidence that they are close friends. Luna misses the DA because it was like having friends. She is a neighbor of Ginny's, but no one at the Burrow ever mentions hre, and in the train in OotP Ron acts like he doesn't even know her. We've never seen them do anything together that would imply they're close friends. And I don't think Luna is completely whacked. She's never been anything but nice and helpful and loyal to Harry.

As for Ginny being powerful, we've heard she can do one good hex. We've never seen it. And in both battles she was in, she did nothing much. In the fist one she broke her ankle, and even though she had a wand and a voice, she just sat there, while Neville, who had neither, stuck with Harry. In the second, we saw a lot of dodging and dancing hair, and she said they would have all died without the Felix, including her. Wher'es the power?

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Eponine - Feb 5, 2007 10:56 pm (#1784 of 2152)

Actually, it's never been canonically confirmed that Luna is a neighbor of the Weasleys. It's certainly true that it's most likely that Luna and her father are the Lovegoods mentioned in GoF, but nowhere in the books or interviews has it been confirmed. And there's nothing to indicate just how close those Lovegoods are located to the Burrow. The Diggorys were apparently in (relatively) close proximity to the Weasleys, and no one ever mentioned Cedric hanging out at the Burrow when they were children.

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xray - Feb 6, 2007 12:31 am (#1785 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ginny hexed Zacharias on the train just for asking a question. - DZ

Well, it wasn't quite that simple. He pestered her to the point where she had to hex him to shut him up.

And where was she popular before HBP that we could honestly say that canonically, she was a popular girl?

One thing I really like about this series is that the characters actually grow emotionally and physically. Ginny in particular has transformed from a little girl to a beautiful young lady gradually over the course of six books. Whether she was popular or not prior to HBP doesn't matter. We're seeing this through Harry's eyes and he didn't really notice her romantically until HBP; prior to that she was simply Ron's sweet little sister. Ginny is nice, she has a lot of friends, and people like her; that's what made her popular.

We've never seen them do anything together that would imply they're close friends.

Luna may not be completely whacked, but she's definately a nutcase. I don't think they're best friends, particularly since they're in different houses, but Ginny knows her pretty well despite that. She defends Luna and she's happy for her (when she's excited about going to Slughorn's party). Rowling clearly presents them as being close friends, much closer than just aquaintances. Why don't you want them to be friends? Do you hate Ginny that much?

As for Ginny being powerful, we've heard she can do one good hex.

Actually we've heard that she's powerful. The one good hex is merely an example of that power. Fred and George let us know (size is no guarantee of power... look at Ginny), Ron points it out to us (Ginny was best), and Slughorn is extremely impressed, enough to think she'll "be somebody to know" and invites her into his Slug Club. We're actually told and reminded on several occassions about Ginny's power. I'm expecting to see great things from Ginny in DH. Who knows, she may be the key to helping Harry defeat Voldemort.

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Rosie Lu - Feb 6, 2007 3:30 am (#1786 of 2152)

Ginny hexed Zacharias on the train just for asking a question. Everyone on that train was probably gossiping, but he actually went to the source and asked, so he got hexed.

From everything we know of Zacharias, he was by no means being nice when he asked her for information. Which, by the way, was private and no one, especially someone who's insulted Harry before, had any right knowing.

She's often trying to horn in ont he trio

When does she try and horn in on the trio?

And I think she and Luna are just aquaintances. We have no evidence that they are close friends.

Ginny and Luna are clearly friends. They may not be best friends, but they're friends. Ginny sticks up for her, Luna thinks she's nice. They were walking together when they heard the trio arguing in OOTP. I think they were acquaintances before OotP, but by HBP they're friends. I think Ginny may be one of Luna's closest friends, and I personally find it very sweet.

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frogface - Feb 6, 2007 4:26 am (#1787 of 2152)

Also you can't say the usually told her to go away. To my mind we only saw that happen once, and that was in GoF because they needed to discuss Sirius, which they needed to keep quiet. So it was only one occasion and they had a perfectly good reason, it doesn't at all suggest they don't like her. So could we honestly say canonically that they usually did that?

I think the comparison between Lily and Ginny is quite clear, we've seen close examples of them sticking up for the underdog. And Lily turing on Snape because he insulted her isn't really surprising. I expect anyone in that posistion (including Ginny) to react the same way if they were insulted with a term we know to be considered utterly disgusting to use by most in the Wizarding World.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 6, 2007 9:41 am (#1788 of 2152)

The only thing that worries me is, Zacharias is in Hufflepuff and has the same name as the owner of Hufflepuff's cup, which Harry needs information on. There may be a connection. If he ever needs help from Hufflepuff, the bratty way his former girlfriend acted in HBP cannot possibly help the situation. Zachiarias didn't deserve the way Ginny treated him. He asked questions. So she hexed him. We don't know how he asked the questions. We didn't see it, anymore than we saw Ginny behaving as a powerful witch. We didn't see it. He was in the DA. Why would a battle of DA members against Death Eaters not be a legitimate topic of conversation? And as for the broom incident, if the Slytherins had done that to Lee Jordon, everyone would have expected them to be expelled, but if Ginny does it, it's great. That's not fair.

And Luna is not a whack job. That's harsh. She is picked on, and goes along with the eccentric persona she has, but she came up with the idea to use thestrals, an was willing to stand up in front of a crowd that contained hostile students and say she believed Harry, and she helpd him get his information out. Yes, Ginny is the first one to call her Loony, and she later on stops doing it and tells someone else not to, but that's what I'd expect since Luna helped her out of the MoM after she broke her ankle. If being in the DA was LIKE having friends, Luna doesn't seem to think she has real friends, and Ginny is never seen doing anything with her except walking to class.

I think the Lovegoods probably are the same Lovegoods mentioned in GoF, and I concede Cedric was also a neighbor, but no one is trying to say Cedric was a good friend to any of the Weasleys.

And as for Ginny being beautiful, no one but a Slytherin, a salesperson trying to sell her something and a Death Eater trying to hex her say she's pretty. Not even Harry says she's beautiful in canon. She probably is, since Harry seems to be interested in her for her looks, just like she is interested in him for being famous, but it's not canon from a reliable source.

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frogface - Feb 6, 2007 9:53 am (#1789 of 2152)

Its never stated canonically as far as I know that shes interesting in Harry because he's famous. She's intially shy around him because he's famous, but that doesn't mean thats WHY she likes him.

Also Lee Jordon never tried to put off opposite teams by saying horrible things about them. Whereas Zachrias was actively trying to put the Gryffindor's off. And for all we know Ginny was punished for that incident.

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 6, 2007 11:13 am (#1790 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Wonder what Ginny's wand has as a core? Has we even been told what kind of wood was used?

Mickey

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History2010 - Feb 6, 2007 1:34 pm (#1791 of 2152)

just like she is interested in him for being famous

I don't understand your point here. Ginny, as a ten year old, had the same reaction that eleven year old Hermione and Ron both had, though hers was a little more excited, I'll agree. They were all thrilled and star struck with Harry, at the beginning.

But nowhere does it say she likes him because he's famous. In CoS, Tom Riddle (who of course is a reliable source) says that Ginny is afraid he won't like her, not the other way around.

Ginny is shy around him because she likes him, Harry, as a person. It might have started out as hero worship but it clearly isn't by OotP and HBP. They are friends by then, after all. Ginny and Harry are friends during OotP, and Harry even talks to her about wanting to talk to Sirius.

Harry seems to be interested in her for her looks

Of course Harry is physically attracted to Ginny, because no matter how much people insist it's not, physical attraction is important in a relationship. He frequently uses positives descriptions of Ginny throughout all of the books, not just HBP. Ginny is probably physically attracted to him, too.

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Rosie Lu - Feb 6, 2007 6:11 pm (#1792 of 2152)

If he ever needs help from Hufflepuff, the bratty way his former girlfriend acted in HBP cannot possibly help the situation. Zachiarias didn't deserve the way Ginny treated him. He asked questions. So she hexed him.

Every single Weasley still in school was mean to Zacharias, so I'm not sure how this is only a Ginny thing. In OotP, the twins and Ron both treated him poorly and did pranks on him just as much as Ginny. Zacharias was rude and mean to them and Harry, and there was no reason for him to be that way. I also believe Zacharias will be connected to the Hufflepuff cup and I think it's extremely important that JKR made their be a rift between Harry and Zacharias.

If being in the DA was LIKE having friends, Luna doesn't seem to think she has real friends, and Ginny is never seen doing anything with her except walking to class.

That still doesn't mean Luna and Ginny aren't friends because Luna wants more of them out of the DA.

Wonder what Ginny's wand has as a core? Has we even been told what kind of wood was used?

I think dragon heartstring or maybe phoenix feather. Didn't Jo once say the wands usually line up with the wood specific to their birthday? Ginny was born in August.

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 6, 2007 6:16 pm (#1793 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Thanks Rosie Lu I needed that piece of information. Phoenix feather could be significant me thinks.

Mickey

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 6, 2007 7:42 pm (#1794 of 2152)

As a ten year old, Ginny wasn't a bit interested in Harry when she first saw him. He said nothing to her, she said nothing to him,a nd we didn't even get a sentence that she even looked at him. If he hadn't been eavesdropping, he wouldn't even have known her name. It was after she found out he was Harry Potter, that she wanted to go goggle at him. That holds right until the end of HBP when she basically says she likes him so much because he's the one who's fighting Voldemort. We've never seen her try to find out anything about what he's really like, or discuss anything personal.

I never heard anything about what her wand is, and I missed the part about it being related to birthdays. If so, does Snape have phoenix feather, too, like Voldemort? If I can find that quote, I'll take it to the Snape thread! So if anyone can tell me where I could find a link to the birthday statement, I'd love to see it. I haven't been able to locate it.

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Eponine - Feb 6, 2007 8:07 pm (#1795 of 2152)

That holds right until the end of HBP when she basically says she likes him so much because he's the one who's fighting Voldemort.

I really don't understand how you got that from what she said. She never said she liked him because he's the one fighting Voldemort.

I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much.

To me, it says she likes him because he's noble and brave and isn't going to stop doing what's right because an evil wizard is after him. He's accepting the responsibility, and she likes him for that.

And once again, long heartfelt personal conversations about hopes and dreams have no place in these books. They would stick out awkwardly and change the pace.

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peachespig - Feb 6, 2007 8:42 pm (#1796 of 2152)

To me it's completely evident that Ginny's interaction with Harry has changed markedly since she was so impressed by him in book 1. Her presence in the books clearly splits into two parts, books 1-4 when she's mostly in the background and books 5 on when she's more central; and I think it's conveyed clearly in OotP that's she's grown and begun interacting with Harry as an equal rather than a star-struck girl. If this isn't clear before she punctures his self-involvement balloon concerning what it's like to be possessed, it becomes clear then. She calls him on his behavior, hardly the actions of a fangirl.

Even when she was her most star-struck, by the way, it seems to me she never really irritated Harry the way other aspects of fame did. In fact, I would say part of the reason Colin Creevey is in book 2 is to contrast with Ginny -- they're both sort of Harry fans but only one is annoying. Ginny is sweet by comparison, and Harry in return is kind to her a couple times.

And speaking of the trappings of fame -- I don't see how Harry Potter could ever date someone who only liked him beacuse he was famous. Wouldn't he see right through that? Wouldn't he run away, like he did from Romilda Vane and all the other fangirls? I think he would.

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xray - Feb 6, 2007 10:07 pm (#1797 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
It was after she found out he was Harry Potter, that she wanted to go goggle at him. That holds right until the end of HBP when she basically says she likes him so much because he's the one who's fighting Voldemort. We've never seen her try to find out anything about what he's really like, or discuss anything personal.

Die, you're partly right... Ginny was like any other fangirl but in PS only. By the beginning of CoS she changed and it's easy to see how. I love LOVE this scene so much I have to post it Very Happy

"Hey, Mom, guess what? Guess who we just met on the train?"
Harry leaned back quickly so they couldn't see him looking.
"You know that black-haired boy who was near us in the station? Know who he is?"
"Who?"
"Harry Potter!"
Harry heard the little girl's voice.
"Oh, Mom, can I go on the train and see him, Mom, oh please...."
"You've already seen him, Ginny, and the poor boy isn't something you goggle at in a zoo. Is he really, Fred? How do you know?"
"Asked him. Saw his scar. It's really there — like lightning." - SS, pp 96-7
Molly and Ginny received owls during the school year, learning a little more about Harry Potter from Ron, Percy, Fred, and George. At the end of PoS, Ginny is still fangirlish (He, Ron, and Hermione passed through the gateway together. "There he is, Mom, there he is, look!" It was Ginny Weasley, Ron's younger sister, but she wasn't pointing at Ron. "Harry Potter!" she squealed. "Look, Mom! I can see—"). By the way, what sort of conversation do you think Molly and Ginny had on the way to King's Crossing to collect everyone? Ginny sure must have been very excited.

Now picture the Weasleys on their return home... talk of Harry Potter probably dominated the discussion then and through most of the summer. This is when Ginny learned about him, about his childhood and what he had to endure from the Dursley's, that he never had a birthday or Christmas, etc. Ginny lost her fangirlish attitude and began to crush on him instead as we see in CoS:
At that moment there was a diversion in the form of a small, redheaded figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again.
"Ginny," said Ron in an undertone to Harry. "My sister. She's been talking about you all summer." - CoS, p. 35

They slipped out of the kitchen and down a narrow passageway to an uneven staircase, which wound its way, zigzagging up through the house. On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap.
"Ginny," said Ron. "You don't know how weird it is for her to be this shy. She never shuts up normally—" - CoS, pp 39-40
I'm very curious why you think she's a fangirl this whole time and I'd like to see what you have to support that comment.

So if anyone can tell me where I could find a link to the birthday statement, I'd love to see it. I haven't been able to locate it.

It's on Rowling's website under "extra stuff." Here's the link.

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Rosie Lu - Feb 7, 2007 12:17 am (#1798 of 2152)

And speaking of the trappings of fame -- I don't see how Harry Potter could ever date someone who only liked him beacuse he was famous. Wouldn't he see right through that? Wouldn't he run away, like he did from Romilda Vane and all the other fangirls? I think he would.

Yeah, I believe he would. Harry has always been embarrassed by fame.

Ginny did view him as a fangirl at first, as xray pointed out, but she no longer does. Jo confirmed this in the interview by stating that both Harry and Ginny both got over their own delusions. Ginny's delusion was viewing Harry as a fangirl, but she's over this by HBP.

As for the wood in their wand, it was on Jo's website, but after re-reading it, I see she said it was only the trio who were connected to their birthdays. Ginny would've been under this: August 5 - September 1 = Hazel (Coll) if she followed the Celtic pattern. But she said it was only the trio that followed that pattern, so we don't know her wood. As for her wand core, I still think dragon heartstring or phoenix feather would be good for Ginny. Harry has phoenix feather, Ron has unicorn and Hermione has dragon heartstring.

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Laura W - Feb 7, 2007 2:08 am (#1799 of 2152)

Very nice assessment of the situation re the evolution of Ginny Weasley's feelings for Harry Potter, xray. And good research on the birthday/wand thing.

"To me, it says she likes him because he's noble and brave and isn't going to stop doing what's right because an evil wizard is after him. He's accepting the responsibility, and she likes him for that."

And I agree with you on this, Eponine.

Laura

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 7, 2007 10:01 am (#1800 of 2152)

Die, You continue to claim that Harry and Ginny never got to know each other and never had a personal conversation.

But the way JKR wrote all the Harry/Ginny interaction in HBP it is clear to me that the author wants you to know that they did have those discussions, without bogging down the story with long, sappy, private conversations between the two that do nothing to advance the Voldemort plot.

For example:

She met Harry's gaze with the same hard, blazing look that he had seen when she had hugged him after the winning the Quidditch Cup in his absence, and he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly,

How can 2 people who have never "gotten to know each other" understand each other perfectly with just a look?

And even the tatoo joke shows you that Harry and Ginny are very clearly 'on the same page'. Ginny's first comment was funny as it was, but Harry kept asking questions like he knew there was potentially more to the joke, and sure enough, Ginny had a funny answer for every question he asked.

And (my personal favorite):

A much smaller and warmer hand had enclosed his and was pulling him upwards. He obeyed its pressure without really thinking about it.

How can you say that those are the interactions of 2 people who "never got to know each other"?

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1801 to 1850)

Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:57 am

Die Zimtzicke - Feb 7, 2007 1:46 pm (#1801 of 2152)
I don't know how two people who have never gotten to know each other perfectly can understand each other with just a look. That's why I wish I'd seen some conversations, or at least more occasional thoughts from Harry about Ginny.

The books are generally agreed to be from his point of view, yet even in HBP we didn't get to see him what he thought about Ginny, other than the dirty dreams thought and a couple of other minor things. The discussions would NOT have had to be long and/or sappy. Just there, even a couple of sentences, which they weren't and if they aren't there, they aren't canon. Same thing with all of the supposed information about Harry Ron supposedly sent home after they became friends.

Harry not thinking about Ginny, when he most should have, in the Dumbledore scene, is kind of tacky to me. That's when they could have bonded over their common woes, but he didn't pay that much attention to her injured brother, and she didn't pay that much attention to him seeing Dumbledore killed. They were both running on parallel tracks when a few words could have showed them comforting each other. The tattoo scene is the same way. We could have gotten a couple of sentences from that lead-in about dementors about how they saw the coming war, but he blew her off and prefered to talk about something superficial, the tattoos.

I think this is getting too far off the subject of Ginny herself, though, and probably needs to go to shipping. I completely agree that Ginny has NO POINT except as Harry's girlfriend, but that bothers me because it kind kind of diminishes the character. It makes her just the female Weasley who's there to be Harry' prize when he wins, when she could have been so much more.

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haymoni - Feb 7, 2007 2:09 pm (#1802 of 2152)

We still have 1 book left, so maybe there is hope for Ginny to earn her "Perfect Girl" badge.

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frogface - Feb 7, 2007 2:35 pm (#1803 of 2152)

No offense Die, but I think you are quite bias against Ginny. If you are looking for absolute laid out on the page "this is how I feel about you ginny" from Harry, then you probably won't get it, because with books you often have to read between the lines. This is literature, not a factual book. Once again I mean no offense by this, but you seem to be quite happy to make assumptions about her relationship to Harry that are negative, like "before HBP they usually told her to go away, which she usually did in a huff." But that only happened one time. Yet one someone makes a valid point about the connection Harry expresses to her at the funeral and at DD's death, you dismiss the whole scene as tacky. That just doesn't add up for me. Sorry.

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peachespig - Feb 7, 2007 2:58 pm (#1804 of 2152)

JKR could have described the H/G relationship in all sorts of ways, but in the end she did it in a particular way. Given what's there, I think it's perfectly clear that Ginny's feelings for Harry evolved significantly, and that the two of them developed an enjoyable bond.

I guess when I'm analyzing the Harry Potter books, I try to look for what is there, rather than spend a lot of time thinking about what "should" have been there but isn't.

Harry's a good person, but do we ever see him rescue a kitten from a tree? We do not. That could have been a way to convey he was a good person, but it wasn't written. Yet nonetheless, I think I have an idea of Harry's character, and I think he's a good person.

Harry and Ginny could have talked about war and fear instead of light, happy things when they were dating? They could have, but I think Jo was trying to keep that part of the book humorous and firmly entrenched in the growing-up part of the story. Nevertheless I think we can see the bond they developed all the same.

And anyway, they do talk about the serious stuff -- at the break-up scene, they discuss Voldemort and the future and resolve and all that. They are obviously both afraid. And we are told how well they understand each other. And yet somehow, that scene seems to disappoint people for different reasons.

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Mediwitch - Feb 7, 2007 3:00 pm (#1805 of 2152)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
No doubt if we had seen more of Ginny's development explicitly instead of implicitly, or if we'd seen Harry's and Ginny's relationship evolve more explicitly, other people would complain about that. I like Jo's stories, and I'm glad she wrote them the way she wants them. That includes her characters (like Ginny).

If I didn't like them, I'd be spending my time elsewhere!

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S.E. Jones - Feb 7, 2007 5:01 pm (#1806 of 2152)

Let it snow!
So, does anyone think Ginny will be showing up the Dursley's porch along with Ron and Hermione? I know she agreed that her and Harry's relationship would have to wait until Voldemort was out of the picture, but I have a problem believing she'd be willing to put their friendship aside as well. What do you all think?

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xray - Feb 7, 2007 5:38 pm (#1807 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
S.E. Jones, as much as I'd really like to see it happen, I don't believe it will. I think Rowling is going to keep it just the trio at first and that Harry won't see Ginny until Bill and Fleur's wedding, where his jaw will become dislodged from his head.
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journeymom - Feb 7, 2007 5:40 pm (#1808 of 2152)

Hm. The way JKR describes Ginny sounds a bit like Lily, we've concluded. How would Petunia react seeing Ginny? Would Dudley take notice of Ginny?

Xray- *snort* I like that picture! I bet you're right.

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S.E. Jones - Feb 7, 2007 5:43 pm (#1809 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Possibly, Xray. Jo might also bring Ginny in at the beginning and then dislodge her from the group when the new school year starts or when they start Horcrux hunting. My thought process is that Harry won't be able to even leave #4 until 31st of July when his protection ends and he may need to attempt to set up a safe haven of some sort at that point. Then Bill's wedding will be during the summer before the schoolyear starts so it will be sometime in August. I don't think that Harry will get a chance to go off hunting until after Bill's wedding, so there's at least a couple months in which Ginny could appear and during which time the Trio isn't doing too much but preparation.

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peachespig - Feb 7, 2007 7:26 pm (#1810 of 2152)

I agree with xray here; Harry won't be seeing a lot of Ginny at the beginning of DH, mostly the wedding. And when they are together, I expect it to be somewhat awkward and uncertain.

JKR wrote this big break-up scene at the end of HBP; basically I think that break-up has to be meaningful to the plot or she wouldn't have bothered writing it. So they have to be apart for a while.

If Harry doesn't go back to school and she does, they will be apart anyway; I kind of expect them to meet up in the middle-to-end of the book again.

One thing I could see is the Trio communicating with Ginny and the rest of the D.A. (through Sirius's mirror maybe) for "business", but I think the romance will have to be absent/buried for a while, no matter what each of them is thinking.

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jose043 - Feb 8, 2007 3:12 am (#1811 of 2152)

S.E. Jones we agree that Ginny will be on the front porch with Ron & Hermione, when they go to the Dursley's

Josephine & Anne

Little Werewolves of London

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xray - Feb 8, 2007 1:48 pm (#1812 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
That really would be fun to see... Ginny showing up on Harry's porch, Dudley gawking at her, Harry smirking "should've been a wizard, Dudders," and Ginny hexing him because he was so mean to her boyfriend. But unfortunately Ginny is only 16 (only 16... our little Ginny is growing up *sniff*) so that's why I doubt we'll see Ginny there as she can't do magic outside of Hogwarts. Sure would be fun though Smile

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 8, 2007 3:54 pm (#1813 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
But xray your forgetting. The ministry only knows if magic is performed at an address, not by WHO. Harry should be of age by then and so would Ron and Hermoine, so it is a possibility. WOULD Love that to Happen. It would even be better if they all showed up in their robes to get Harry in the middle of a nice sunny day.

Mickey

(edited) Petunia would croak!
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Betelgeuse Black - Feb 8, 2007 7:00 pm (#1814 of 2152)

I don't think Ginny will hex any muggles. If she gets that "Molly" look when she's ready to explode then I'd bet Dudders would back off.

The one problem I have with Ginny showing up at #4PD is how would she get there? Hermione can apparate. Ron and Harry will take the test as soon as Harry turns 17. Will she ride a broom? A thestral? How will Ron get there for that matter? Come on July 21st!

Enquiring minds want to know! Betelgeuse

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 8, 2007 8:22 pm (#1815 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
She can hold on to Hermione's arm like Harry did with Dumbledore. Ron will be able to apparate by the time they go to get Harry. He was catching the hang of it by the end of their lessons.

Mickey

(edited) He can probably learn it alot faster from his brothers than he did the old professor.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 9, 2007 9:49 am (#1816 of 2152)

I agree with peachespig. If Ginny is with the trio at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, it completely negates the break-up scene in Half-Blood Prince. JKR had them break up for a reason. (I think that reason was to bring them back together spectacularly at the end of the last book.) But, we'll see.

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Steve Newton - Feb 9, 2007 10:06 am (#1817 of 2152)

Librarian
Well, JKR did not have them break up. Harry said that he wanted to for Ginny's safety. I don't recall Ginny agreeing.

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peachespig - Feb 9, 2007 10:40 am (#1818 of 2152)

Steve, what Harry thinks right before he breaks up with her is

he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly, and that when he told her what he was going to do now, she would not say "Be careful", or "Don't do it", but accept his decision, because she would not have expected anything less of him.
And then after he tells her, Ginny says
"Well . . . I can't say I'm surprised. I knew this would happen in the end."
I don't think she's given up on them being together ever, but I do think she has accepted his decision. I believe we're to believe Harry's statement that they understand each other, and to understand her reply as resignation.

So although I don't think she will keep herself out of harm's way, I do think she's not about to tell Harry "By the way, I never agreed, as far as I'm concerned we're still going out." The evidence is that she respects his decision too much for that.

Sunny B, I agree that the separation is there partially so that when they do reunite, it will be spectacular for the waiting. Smile Their being apart will probably have a main-plot reason, too.

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verde823 - Feb 13, 2007 6:21 am (#1819 of 2152)

I'm new, and have not yet posted anything about Ginny, so forgive me if it's been discussed. I have read an interview recently where JKR says that the POA movie had some things in it which forshadowed some parts of Book 7 (if this is the wrong thread, please let me know). I had just finished reading the chapter of POA where the dementors come aboard the train, to my daughter the night before I read this interview. The next day my 3 year old asked to watch POA (it's his favorite movie, and he has been known to shout "Expecto Patronum" at me when he is angry). In the train scene in the movie, Ginny and Neville are absent from the compartment that HRH and Lupin are in. Those of you who have read my posts before know that I tend to see clues where there probably aren't any, and this may be the case (not enough room on that particular set to have that many actors), but it still stood out to me. Is it possible that this was one of the things JKR was talking about? Perhaps Ginny and Neville are the two who don't make it? I should probably change my user name to "Straw Grasper"!

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Eponine - Feb 13, 2007 7:29 am (#1820 of 2152)

verde823, I think that's unlikely. As far as I know, she's only changed her mind about killing two people off within the past year or so, and PoA came out at least 3 years ago.

Personally, I think Ginny's safe. I don't think she's going to die.

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haymoni - Feb 13, 2007 7:46 am (#1821 of 2152)

I think it was just hard to film all those people in that train compartment.

I think Ginny is safe too.

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juliebug - Feb 13, 2007 8:12 am (#1822 of 2152)

The foreshadowing comment immediately made me think of the scene in PoA where Snape puts himself front of the trio to sheild them from Lupin after her tranforms.

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verde823 - Feb 13, 2007 8:27 am (#1823 of 2152)

Thanks Eponine...I hadn't realized the timeline! I truly hope Ginny and Neville are both safe, they are 2 of my favorite characters. Especially Neville...I love him!

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 13, 2007 12:54 pm (#1824 of 2152)

I've heard many people say that it's possible she was talking about the way the bus stretched, and thinking of the feeling of apparition. But I always thought of Snape stepping in front of the kids, Draco howling like a werewolf, or the way Hogwarts was sealed off that might be the thing she saw. Those three stood out to me. But Ginny not being in the compartment is weird, if the only evidence we have that Ginny was scarred by her experince with Riddle, is her reaction to dementors. If it came down to Ginny or Neville, of course I'd pick Neville to survive, no contest.

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S.E. Jones - Feb 13, 2007 8:44 pm (#1825 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Edited Feb 14, 2007 1:12 am
If you want to discuss what the PoA film may have been foreshadowing, you can take the subject up in the movie's thread (currently in the 'Harry Potter Movies Group Section Folder') or you can start a thread just for the foreshadowing....

EDIT: I just started a new thread to discuss the foreshadowing present in the 3rd movie: Foreshadowing in the PoA movie.

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frogface - Feb 14, 2007 1:21 am (#1826 of 2152)

Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 14, 2007 1:01 am
I'd pick Neville to sacrifice himself personally. The film comments she made usually made me think of the things Lupin said about Lily. But neither of those topics belong to this thread!

-Please take further comments about foreshadowing events in PoA to another thread. Thank you.- SE Jones

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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 23, 2007 10:35 am (#1827 of 2152)

Edited by Denise P. Feb 23, 2007 12:51 pm
Die Zimtzicke said on the Luna Lovegood thread: I do think that Jo intended Luna to be a sympathetic character. Luna has never done anything cruel to anyone, said anything cruel to anyone, or been less than helpful. So what's to dislike?

I have to admit that this statement intrigued me, especially thinking about it in relation to Ginny. I know large numbers of people dislike her, and a few have used the word LOATHE, and I'm curious as to why the above quoted statement applies to Luna, but not to Ginny. Take a look. . .

I do think that Jo intended Luna Ginny to be a sympathetic character. True. She most certainly did. Like her or loathe her you can't deny that Jo intended for Ginny to be a good/sympathetic character.

LunaGinny has never done anything cruel to anyone, said anything cruel to anyone, or been less than helpful. This is also true. Ugly, perhaps, a little nasty, maybe, but CRUEL?!?!?! On a par with Bellatrix Lestrange CRUEL?!?!?! No. Just no.

So what's to dislike? My question exactly.

I changed a word to a more family friendly version. Please remember that we are a family friendly forum and even if one thinks a word is acceptable and not really a swear word, it should not be used. Thanks! Denise P.

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Jadelollipop - Feb 23, 2007 12:24 pm (#1828 of 2152)

I glanced over this thread and noticed a few things to comment on. 1. The question re: Ginny's reaction to Harry in PS vs COS and what changed it...Some posters commented that Ginny knew Harry as the BWL in SS but by COS knew more about the real Harry. Others questioned the validity of that viewpoint (canon?)...It is in COS page 39 when Arthur arrived home..."Harry? said Mr. Weasley blankly, Harry who?...Good Lord, is it Harry Potter? Very pleased to meet you RON has told us so much about..."...It is quite possible that Ginny's "talked about you all summer" is Ron's way of explaining away his own wagging tongue... 2.Re the diary and why did Ginny steal it from his room...this was after the singing valentine when Harry's bag dropped his belongingings into the hallway...page 239 Ginny was staring from the diary to Harry looking terrified...I always thought she took the diary back to keep him from being possessed (by this time she knew it was bad hence her attempt to destroy it)...

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Lina - Feb 23, 2007 12:24 pm (#1829 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Gatorgrad1991, I'm not one of the people who dislike Ginny, but my guess is that her worst sin was to fall in love with Harry.

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Choices - Feb 23, 2007 12:35 pm (#1830 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
She does do a mean Bat Bogey Hex. LOL

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xray - Feb 23, 2007 2:10 pm (#1831 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
always thought she took the diary back to keep him from being possessed (by this time she knew it was bad hence her attempt to destroy it)... - Jadelollipop

I always thought it was because she was afraid the diary would reveal her secrets...

"Well, that's an interesting question," said Riddle pleasantly. "And quite a long story. I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley's like this is because she opened her heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger."
"What are you talking about?" said Harry.
"The diary," said Riddle. "My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries and woes — how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" — Riddle's eyes glinted — "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her...." - CoS page 309
... to Harry Potter!

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History2010 - Feb 23, 2007 2:15 pm (#1832 of 2152)

page 239 Ginny was staring from the diary to Harry looking terrified...I always thought she took the diary back to keep him from being possessed (by this time she knew it was bad hence her attempt to destroy it)...

I agree, Jadelollipop. Of course, another reason could be that she didn't want the diary to tell Harry about what she was doing, under it's power, but I think your explanation is more likely.

Gatorgrad1991, I agree.

I find Ginny very likable, and very believable for someone with six siblings. As a person from a big family myself, there are times when you have to assert yourself, and I think that is what Ginny's trying to do in OotP, but especially HBP. She is constantly fighting to prove herself, especially since she is not only the youngest but the youngest girl.

And she's a lot like Fred and George, who have quite a nasty streak in them. I'm not saying she's perfect, but then no one is.

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Sticky Glue - Feb 23, 2007 3:00 pm (#1833 of 2152)

I also agree with most of what History2010 and some of the other have said. I have always thought she took the Diary to protect Harry as well.

I also think that being the youngest and only girl has made her have to stand up for herself, but also a little left out - I believe she has always wanted to be one of the boys with her brothers, playing quidditch and roughing it, and has probably spend all her life being talked down to and taken for granted.

For these resons and more - I have always seen Ginny as a bit of a tomboy and visualise her wearing jeans and a studded leather jacket - or dressed as much like her brother Bill as she can! I just hope the movie people haven't put her in a pink frilly dress - just won't suite her at all!!!

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 23, 2007 9:28 pm (#1834 of 2152)

If Ginny took the diary to protect Harry, why did she write in it again? That's where she lost me. We've been through that a hundred times so it's no use doing it again.

As for why I loathe her, I'm a dead Harry person, so it's not all as shipping thing, although I do think they bring out the worst in each other. Ginny IS nasty to almost everyone in HBP.

To Fleur, yes, definitely. Fleur is a veela, a world traveler, a tri-wizard champion, and she gets villified because she gets a bit bored at the Burrow where no one is even attempting to welcome her or make her feel at home. How evil that is! And it's perfectly fine that Ginny bad mouth her to Harry, who parted on good terms with Fleur previously after she acknowledged him as a better champion, for saving her sister's life and completing tasks she could not complete. Even after Fleur's declaration of love for Bill, Ginny's just going to put up with her because she has to.

Then there's the whole thing with Zacharias. God forbid a member of the DA,who was learning to fight DE, actually ask questions about a battle with DE! And of course, Harry, who thought his father was a git for hexing people just because he could has to agree when Ginny doees it, it's fine. Then there's the broom crash. Harry got a ban the year before, for getting drawn into an altercation by criticism. He tells his team to ignore it and play. Until Ginny does it. If a Slytherin had crashed into Lee Jordan for biased commentary, the fans would have watnted them expelled. But Ginny...it's great.

She's downright vicious to Ron. You don't slam your brother for his lack of sexual experince with girls in front of his best friend, unless you've got a real mean streak. Yes, siblings fight, but she's always been close to Ron. That got out of hand.

Hermione was her friend, got her in with the trio, gave her advice, and she gets ripped, too, for something that clearly isn't true. Hermione may not set as great a store on Quidditch as the others do, but she isn't ignorant of it. Who gave Harry Quidditch Through The Ages in the first place?

Luna, who is the most serene of the group, is the nicest to Ginny, because Ginny is the nicest to her, but still, if they are friends, why was the DA like having friends? Doesn't Ginny do anything with this girl? We don't see it, and that's not a good friend. Ginny is kind of a hypocrite telling someone else not to call Luna Loony, when she's the first person we saw do it. Luna helped the injured Ginny out of the MoM. The LEAST Ginny could do is stick up for her once in awhile.

Dean is one of my favorite characters and I deeply resent how Ginny chose him, used him, and dumped him for being a gentleman. If she never got over Harry, by her own admission, she shouldn't have let Dean get so serious about her. He clearly cared, and they were together for quite awhile. If she was just tryng to get on with her life, she could hav just gone out with people as friends.

Mostly, I loathe Ginny, because she's Harry's yes woman, even when it comes to him almost kiling someone, and she's a doormat for letting him ignore her for years, then make a spectacle of her, and lead her off like a well trained puppy, that he doesn't have to confide in or tell anything important to. If she's the love interest, then she obviously has no other purpose, which makes her worthless as a character, unti it come time for her to be the little award Harry gets for winning. I'm tired of people telling me Harry deserves to be happy after the war, and get the girl. it's so Victorian it reeks of smelling salts.

Let's see him care about Ginny's opinions, feelings, dreams and desires, which we know nothing of. We don't know waht makeshti girl tick at all. Let's see Ginny be a better person when she's with Harry, not a worse one. And let's see a few sentences of serious interaction actually on the page.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 23, 2007 9:55 pm (#1835 of 2152)

I like Ginny. I don't see that she is under any obligation to like Fleur, nor do I see that she used Dean (I like Dean, too). But I do see grains of truth in parts of Die Zimtzicke's rant.

I'm a bit more forgiving of nastiness from any of the young characters, though, because I expect them to grow and change and learn. They won't always act like little angels, but they might in the end be better for it, provided we can see the process by which they change. We didn't get to see that with Ginny. Though I loved her in OotP, I didn't like her much through HBP until we got to "The Phoenix Lament", where she finally showed a steadiness and strength that was admirable.

I think the problem with Ginny is she hasn't been that major a character so far, so she hasn't had the development necessary to stand up to the rigorous requirements for "The Girl". Almost any other character would have the exact same problems. Unfortunately Rowling chose to skim over Harry and Ginny's relationship, so we don't really know how they effected each other once together. Harry was pretty nasty through HBP, too, hexing people in the corridors just because he could. We don't know if being with Ginny had any effect on Harry's nasty behavior, or Harry on Ginny's. I hope so.

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Jadelollipop - Feb 23, 2007 11:56 pm (#1836 of 2152)

I put down some of Ginny's more negative behavior in HBP to the fact that she was in 5th year...Remeber Harry and his attitude in OOTP? Snape's worst Memory also took place in year 5 (and we know tht the marauders grew up after that)..I expect we will see a more mature Ginny in her 6th year (book 7)...Jo seems to have year 5 the year of the prat and year 6 the year of romance for most characters anyway...Percy was a 6th year when found with Penelope while Fred and Angelina were in 6th year when they went to the Yule Ball.

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xray - Feb 24, 2007 1:12 am (#1837 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 24, 2007 1:15 am
Die, Unfortunately I think you'll be sorely disappointed with Deathly Hallows because Ginny will play a larger roll. I wish there was something I could say that'd get you to change your mind and start to appreciate Ginny's character but I feel as if you're beyond that point

Jo Rowling loves Ginny's character and planned all along that Ginny would be the girl for Harry. This is from an interview with Jo Rowling where the discussion was about Ginny Weasley

JKR: The plan was ... that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt - and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned - initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.

And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.

MA: Does she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stuff, being the seventh girl -

JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again.
source

So as you can see, Ginny will indeed be important in Deathly Hallows and I most certainly am looking forward to seeing her in action again.

Ginny is just plain awesome!

- This post was edit to remove remarks that other members may have found inflamitory. Remember, every member is entitled to their opinion whether it be in favor of or against a character. Debate your views, but don't portray anyone else's views as less important, and don't forget our mantra, "Agree to Disagree". - SE Jones

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peachespig - Feb 24, 2007 1:48 am (#1838 of 2152)

Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 24, 2007 1:22 am
Well, I think I would call Ginny's treatment of Ron when they fight "cruel", because she goes right for his weakness like only a sibling could. He was pretty bad to her, too, with what he was about to imply. I guess I just don't mind if characters I like sometimes do things that are less than admirable; JKR's only trying to humanize them, after all, to show that no one's right all the time, and be a little bit funny and a little bit realistic, too. I'm not looking for angels, where I cross them right off my list after a single infraction. How boring that would be!

I'm a little perplexed that people would want to defend Zacharias, someone we have not been given a good impression of by any means. We didn't see what happened with him and Ginny, and I can't see Ginny being the sort to elaborate -- she seems to have grown into the sort to shrug it off and say less instead of more when she's harrassed -- but I tend to imagine he wasn't very pleasant to her. Assuming the worst of Zach seems a much safer bet than assuming the worst of Ginny.

And anyway -- am I the only one who thinks it both interesting and also totally understandable if Ginny had acquired a stubborn resistance to allowing a teenaged boy to assert control or tell her what to do? She had a horrible experience of being controlled and manipulated when she was eleven; for her to be particularly opposed to boys trying to control her at age fifteen seems eminently reasonable and justifyable to me. This applies not just to Zacharaias, but to Ron as well. After what she went through, I think a little hotheadedness in sticking up for herself is entirely healthy and appropriate.

I'm also kind of amazed that people take such strong sides in the Ginny/Hermione disagreement near the end of HBP. Harry was in a terrible situation -- he was about to be tortured, and he responded with violence to save himself. On the one hand, using an unknown spell against someone was very dangerous and could have had terrible consequences; on the other hand, had he not defended himself in the first way that came into his mind, the consequences also would have been awful, and awful for him. It was a no-win situation, and Jo cleverly allowed Hermione and Ginny to spell out the two different sides of a question to which there was no right answer. I think sometimes we in fandom tend to reduce things that properly are shaded in grey into black and white, but I don't see the reason. Life is complicated.

And one more thing about that fight: right before Ginny snapped at Hermione, Hermione had in fact said something rather rude, though I'm 100% sure she didn't do it on purpose. She said "But you can't call that Sectumsempra spell good, Ginny, look where it's landed him! And I'd have thought, seeing what this has done to your chances in the match—" Listen to what she's saying: Aren't you upset that this has hurt your chances at Qudditch? The implication on Hermione's part that Ginny would care more about the Qudditch match than anything else -- like oh, say, Harry's safety -- was no doubt unintentional but is clearly there, and really is insulting when we know that Harry not getting hurt was first on Ginny's mind, of course. It's hard to blame Ginny for snapping back after hearing that.

Mrs Brisbee: Harry was pretty nasty through HBP, too, hexing people in the corridors just because he could.

I was wondering if you could tell me what you are referring to? Harry seemed more mature to me throughout HBP than any book previous, as well as funnier and kinder to his friends, so I'm confused about calling him "nasty". We can take it to the Harry thread if you want.

- Edited to add the link at the bottom. Please take any further Harry-related discussion to the appropriate thread. Thank you. - SE Jones

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 24, 2007 7:00 am (#1839 of 2152)

And anyway -- am I the only one who thinks it both interesting and also totally understandable if Ginny had acquired a stubborn resistance to allowing a teenaged boy to assert control or tell her what to do? She had a horrible experience of being controlled and manipulated when she was eleven; for her to be particularly opposed to boys trying to control her at age fifteen seems eminently reasonable and justifyable to me. This applies not just to Zacharaias, but to Ron as well. After what she went through, I think a little hotheadedness in sticking up for herself is entirely healthy and appropriate.-- peachespig

I think you may be on to something, Peachespig. That makes a lot of sense.

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Lina - Feb 24, 2007 7:41 am (#1840 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I think that it is very important that the characters on the good side are not totally good. Because there are so many kids that are good in their hearts but still do nasty things (in the real life). This is showing them that any of them can stop being nasty, that one nasty thing doesn't make them bad and that nobody should ever give up on anybody. I hope those thoughts are not too confused.

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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 24, 2007 7:52 am (#1841 of 2152)

Wow, DZ! That's an awful lot of passion to expend on hating a fictional character. Guess I'm just the type of person to exert that kind of emotional force on REAL PEOPLE that are worthy of such hatred, like, say Osama Bin Laden. Smile

And I really have to take issue with a few of your points, becxause as I said when I put the question out there where is the CRUELTY in any of these things?

To Fleur, yes, definitely. Fleur is a veela, a world traveler, a tri-wizard champion, and she gets villified because she gets a bit bored at the Burrow where no one is even attempting to welcome her or make her feel at home. When, where, and how is Fluer being "villified"? I certainly don't villify her, but neither do I see her behavior at the Burrow as admirable. She's rude, patronizing, and dismissive. You say no one was attempting to make her feel welcome. Well, Fleur wasn't exactly attempting to make herself likeable, now was she?

Then there's the whole thing with Zacharias. God forbid a member of the DA,who was learning to fight DE, actually ask questions about a battle with DE! And of course, Harry, who thought his father was a git for hexing people just because he could has to agree when Ginny doees it, it's fine. Whoa, wait, WHAT?!?!?! Where, in the book, does it say that Harry agreed with what Ginny did to Smith? Besides, since the hex happened off page I think it's pretty darned safe to see it as nothing but a plot device to show what kind of person Slughorn is. Any other teacher would have given Ginny detention (she even expected it); Slughorn praises her. It is a part of Sluggy's character development, so why all the emphasis on what Ginny did?

Then there's the broom crash. Harry got a ban the year before, for getting drawn into an altercation by criticism. He tells his team to ignore it and play. Until Ginny does it. If a Slytherin had crashed into Lee Jordan for biased commentary, the fans would have watnted them expelled. But Ginny...it's great. Harry got a ban because of Umbridge being the person she is, not necessarily because of his actions. And in HBP Harry is NOT telling his team to ignore it and play. He encourages a Beater to hit a Bludger toward Smith, and himself uses taunts to distract the other Seeker so he can get to the Snitch. And I for one don't see Ginny's crash into the stands as "great". I laughed over it, yes, but consider it to be one of the stupidest things she's done. But I understand WHY she did it. Girl's got a temper, and Smith had given her ample reason to get mad during the match.

She's downright vicious to Ron. You don't slam your brother for his lack of sexual experince with girls in front of his best friend, unless you've got a real mean streak. Yes, siblings fight, but she's always been close to Ron. That got out of hand. You don't have an older brother, do you? Believe me, younger sister/older brother can be PRECISELY that vicious. And where is your indignation about how mean/vicious Ron was to her. There's two sides to every argument, after all.

Hermione was her friend, got her in with the trio, gave her advice, and she gets ripped, too, for something that clearly isn't true. Hermione may not set as great a store on Quidditch as the others do, but she isn't ignorant of it. Who gave Harry Quidditch Through The Ages in the first place? Hermione gave Harry Quidditch Through The Ages because it's a BOOK, and Hermione relies on books. It wasn't like she could provide him with first hand knowledge of Quidditch, now could she? And I would say that even after all these years she IS ignorant of Quidditch. Wonky Faint, anyone?

And what is this with brought Ginny into the Trio? Whu? The Trio is exactly that - THREE. Ginny is not a part of it.

Besides, Hermione was out of line there. She "nastily" berated Harry for the Potions reputation that he "didn't deserve", implied that Ginny approved of Harry using an unknown and dangerous spell, intimated that all Ginny cared about was the upcoming Quidditch final and lastly disparaged Ginny's abilities as a Seeker by saying that Gryffindor's chances of winning were lessened because Harry wouldn't be playing. I'd lash out at my best friend too if I had to sit still for that.

Luna, who is the most serene of the group, is the nicest to Ginny, because Ginny is the nicest to her, but still, if they are friends, why was the DA like having friends? Doesn't Ginny do anything with this girl? We don't see it, and that's not a good friend. We don't see their friendship because it serves absolutely no purpose to the greater plot of the story. Period. End of sentence.

Ginny is kind of a hypocrite telling someone else not to call Luna Loony, when she's the first person we saw do it. ONCE. She referred to Luna as "Loony" ONCE. And it seems that Luna doesn't hold that against Ginny, so why should the readers?

And again I'll repeat the question; where is the CRUELTY in Ginny's actions? We've seen genuine cruelty in the books. Greyback deliberately chooses his "targets" to punish people. Bellatrix, Rastaban and Rudolphus torture the Longbottoms into insanity. Tom Riddle kills in cold blood and without the slightest bit of remorse. Umbridge takes advantage of her position as a teacher - a person a child should be able to TRUST - to inflict mental and physical abuse. Snape revels in doling out mental abuse towards children. Heck, even "Saint" Hermione does her share with Umbridge and the centaurs! But what CRUELTY is there in Ginny that leads to the hatred that she seems to inspire?

Maybe the problem is mine; I just do NOT see anything in the books that should lead to such harsh and negative feelings. Dislike, yes. "Meh!", I could understand. But THIS?!?!?!

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 24, 2007 12:50 pm (#1842 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I find NO cruelty in Ginny's actions. I agree with xray's (edited) post. I believe that Ginny has been destined to be "Harry's Girl" since JKR started writing PS. It just seems right.

I don't care who dislikes the ship or not. I like the character as developed by JKR and wish I had met someone like her when I was 16. This is a fictional character in a book and not an real individual.

So of us have expressed ourselves on the forum for many years and you can't post without stepping on toes. But you get over it and move on. AGREE to DISAGREE!!

Mickey

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S.E. Jones - Feb 24, 2007 1:10 pm (#1843 of 2152)

Let it snow!
People, let's keep it civil. And let's try not to use very strong language or tone (so fewer all capital letters, please). Remember everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as they express that opinion in a civil and mature manner, whether the opinion is in favor of a character or against a character. Thank you.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion....

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Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2007 5:07 pm (#1844 of 2152)

Librarian
Thanks Gatorgrad1991. You made the post I was going to do, only better.

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pennysieve - Feb 24, 2007 6:34 pm (#1845 of 2152)

I absolutely agree with you, Lina! I think that's one of the things I admire about JKR's writing, that she makes the characters so real. Who hasn't known an adolescent with anger issues, siblings fighting with each other and being mean to each other. Does that mean that they're bad and should die, no I don't think so. So Ginny gets provoked more easily than the rest, isn't that a trait of a redhead?

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 24, 2007 6:47 pm (#1846 of 2152)

Jo's interview comments about Ginny totally perplexed me. When she said that the plan was that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry, why did she put in the "pretty much" part if this is such a done deal? And why would she say Ginny's tough, not in an unpleasant way, when so many fans did see her as being unpleasant. I'm really not alone in this. And I didn't see her as gutsy but demanding.

Harry DOES needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend, but why is Ginny the only one who can do that? He's always been a marked man, is true. It's why Ginny got interested him in the first place, and she really hasn't had any conversations with him that we got to see, where she really got to know him.

Whether she's funny is entirely a matter of opinion. One person might think something is funny that someone else might think is appalling, and I didn't see her being warm and compassionate to anyone anywhere in this book except POSSIBLY when she led him away from Dumbledore's body.

When Jo says Ginny initially, is terrified by Harry's image, I was shocked, because I never saw ANYONE, H/G or anti, that ever thought Ginny was terrified of his image. Intrigued by it, fascinated by it, fixated on it, yes, but terrified? I do not know where that came from at all. I do agree he was a rock god to her when she first saw him, but I don't see where in the text she got over it. (She herself says she never gave up.) It's something we have to imagine or assume.

And there is NO WAY that they are total equals. Harry was marked by Voldmeort as his equal, and are we conceding Ginny is at that stage? There's no way. It's just Jo throwing around words again. Like when she said the day Ginny was taken into the chamber was the worst Harry ever felt, then had him agree with Ron that the day they got the Quidditch ban was the worst he had ever felt.

he idea that Ginny and Harry have to become worthy of each other is as revolting to me as the statement Jo also made about Ron having to become worthy of Hemrione. What in the world does that mean?

I would HOPE Jo would like Ginny as a character. She created her. I don't think she's ever said she disliked any of her characters. Again that is meaningless.

And saying that whole speech about the 7th daughter of a 7th daughter was really stupid in a way, since Ginny is obviously not the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter. At best she's the seventh child of one.

I don't care much what Jo says in interviews anyway. If she wants me to know something, she can put it in the books, where I can read it and see that's the way it should be. If these books are indeed destined to be classica, and peo;le are still reading htem fifty years form now, I doubt if they're going to be looking up old interviews so they author can tell then what she intended them to be thinking of the story.

Maybe I can't get intersted in Ginny because I still have the strong feeling Harry might have to die to win. I'm not sure. But eh fact that he is so intertwined with Voldemort seems to be the most interesting part of the plot to me not which ditsy girl he snogs when he's sixteen.

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Chemyst - Feb 24, 2007 8:23 pm (#1847 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The idea that Ginny and Harry have to become worthy of each other is ... revolting to me ... DZ

I have no problem with the statement "They are worthy of each other." I think Ginny is pretty much the ideal girl for Harry because Harry is not so hot himself: he lies too often to catalog, he sneaks off to Hogsmeade without permission at a time when all the known facts pointed to an escaped murderer wanting make him the next victim, he is chronically disrespectful to Professor Snape, he cheats and copies homework freely, ad infinitum. So, I see them as "pretty much" worthy of each other.

I don't care if Ginny was in a Fifth Year Funk. Her treatment of Fleur was inexcusable and her mother should have stopped it ... but, oh yeah, her mum was behaving almost as poorly. Intentionally making fun of someone and enjoying it as a sport is a form of cruelty. Ginny's calling Fleur a "cow" would get her moderated right off this forum— because it is unnecessarily cruel.

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peachespig - Feb 24, 2007 9:16 pm (#1848 of 2152)

And there is NO WAY that they are total equals. Harry was marked by Voldmeort as his equal, and are we conceding Ginny is at that stage? There's no way.

When talking about Harry and Ginny Jo meant emotional equals, not equal in magic or power or destiny. It's two totally different senses of the word; she meant that they were mature enough to have a relationship. Voldemort has absolutely nothing to do with it; he's not anybody's emotional equal.

Haven't we had this conversation? I think this might be the third time, DZ, but I'm not sure you ever replied to agree or disagree. If you disagree with my interpretation you should let me know, but I'm pretty sure that's what she meant, and I hope that helps.

When Jo says Ginny initially, is terrified by Harry's image, I was shocked, because I never saw ANYONE, H/G or anti, that ever thought Ginny was terrified of his image.

Doesn't she peer out the crack in her bedroom door and then slam it the first time Harry comes to the Burrow? Doesn't Ron remark how strange it is that she's silent when Harry's there because she ordinarily never shuts up, and doesn't Ginny do embarrassing things like blush and put her elbow in the butter? "Terrified" sounds like a perfectly apt description to me. It's pretty cute, too. Smile

he idea that Ginny and Harry have to become worthy of each other is as revolting to me as the statement Jo also made about Ron having to become worthy of Hemrione. What in the world does that mean?

She's talking about maturity. It's the same as "equals". Sometimes people can be too immature, distracted or unready to be prepared to have a healthy relationship; they have to grow up, to learn things about themselves, to reach a certain point before they're ready. Jo seems to think that by book 6, Harry and Ginny are that mature when it comes to their feelings about not just each other, but themselves. It seems obvious not everyone agrees, huh? Wink But after reading HBP I felt exactly the same way.

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Luna Logic - Feb 25, 2007 3:48 am (#1849 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Feb 25, 2007 2:50 am
I really appreciated your post, Lina #1839. Not confused at all IMO. Yes, there are so many kids that are good in their hearts but still do nasty things (in the real life) and I think JKR is speaking to them (while offering them an excellent plot).
Back to Ginny: she is quite a nice girl, and full of life, that's all I have to say!
Like many, I was surprised with the love affair Harry/Ginny, but while re reading carefully, all my first doubts went away (see many quotes on this thread).

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Wanda - Feb 25, 2007 5:06 am (#1850 of 2152)

Editor
Edited by Feb 25, 2007 4:07 am
I was saying after CoS that Ginny and Harry would end up together and the same with Ron and Hermione. Jo wrote it that way, that was her intention all along and to me it was totally obvious that was going to happen. Ginny is able to calm Harry down like no one else can, and she's fiercely loyal to him.

Peachespig, I agree with everything you said, only you said it better than I could have done. Well done! I honestly don't get why people hate Ginny so much. I think she's funny, strong and she knows what she wants. I can say from experience that I was terrified of older boys when I was young (and they weren't even the Chosen One!) especially when I really fancied them. It's natural for a young girl to be totally in awe of someone like Harry. But that does NOT negate the fact that Ginny can and has grown up. She now sees Harry as a person (not an idol). He's sensitive, emotional, someone who is fiery but compassionate... a lot like her really. All she ever wanted was to love and care for him - how is that unnatural or wrong? - and it was only really ever a matter of Harry realising this and opening his heart to her.

And all this stuff about sibling rivalry being 'cruel' It's TOTALLY natural, I assure you. I have an older brother and we spent years squabbling and bringing each other down with cutting remarks. Doesn't mean we haven't grown into thoughtful, compassionate, loving human beings. These characters are CHILDREN - they're growing, learning, there's rivalry, there's emotions and hormones flying all over the place... surely we can all remember what a confusing time it was being a teenager? These issues are mirrored perfectly in the characters, and I think it's been extremely well written.

And, as I've built up a head of steam, there are vast swathes of time in the HP books where we know for a fact that Ginny and Harry have spent weeks together. These are not necessarily all documented, as they've been during holidays etc., but just because Jo doesn't tell us about every conversation Harry and Ginny have ever had, it doesn't mean they haven't talked... at the Burrow, at Grimmauld Place, at the World Cup, in the common room (these are just a few possibilities)... There are millions of occasions where they could have been getting to know each other on a much more subtle level than 'oh, let's have a really serious conversation about how much I like you'. People just don't do that, especially not kids.

And to round off, when I first met my fiance I knew right there and then we were going to marry... sometimes people just understand each other, and it's not necessarily something you can explain in words. Harry and Ginny obviously reached a point where they understood each other, and words weren't necessary. Harry opened his eyes one day and just knew Ginny was the one for him... the thunderclap scenario really isn't that uncommon.

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pennysieve - Feb 25, 2007 9:05 am (#1851 of 2152)
But eh fact that he is so intertwined with Voldemort seems to be the most interesting part of the plot to me not which ditsy girl he snogs when he's sixteen. -Die Zimtzicke

And Harry's fight with Voldemort is the main plot of the story, his romance is a side plot, something to show us about his growing up from a child to an adult. I don't understand why there is a hatred towards a fictional character that's the romantic interest of the hero! If you don't like a character, move on and invest your attention on the more interesting aspects of the story. That's what I do.

Jo seems to think that by book 6, Harry and Ginny are that mature when it comes to their feelings about not just each other, but themselves. It seems obvious not everyone agrees, huh? Wink But after reading HBP I felt exactly the same way. - peachespig

I agree with you peachespigs, I felt the same way too. That's what JKR meant when she said they were eqauls!

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Lina - Feb 25, 2007 10:25 am (#1852 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Die Zimtzicke: I don't care much what Jo says in interviews anyway. If she wants me to know something, she can put it in the books, where I can read it and see that's the way it should be. If these books are indeed destined to be classica, and peo;le are still reading htem fifty years form now, I doubt if they're going to be looking up old interviews so they author can tell then what she intended them to be thinking of the story. - exactly! So I don't understand why do you keep actually finding her interviews revolting? We have the privilege of talking to the author of the books we like, in some sort of way, during the process of the books being made. We have the privilege of speculating how will this or that end, because we still have to wait for the last book. She has a big problem. Answering the questions of her fans without revealing too much of the final resolution. How would you feel if you'd be reading some thriller and someone would tell you who is the killer while you haven't read the half of the book yet? That is exactly the situation that she is trying to avoid. At the same time, she likes giving us little clues and hints during the story line. Like the young Sirius Black that gave Hagrid the flying motor bike in PS/SS. Or the barman in the Hogs Head that looks familiar and smells like goats. Some of them are more, some less important. I guess that the fact that the barman at the Hogs Head is Aberforth is not crucial to the story, that's why she could reveal that to us in the interview. At the same time, Snape's bogart and Patronus are important and we will know nothing about them until we read it in the book, or something else that would explain what they could be. If she mentioned the seventh daughter of the seventh daughter in the interview, it means that it is not important for the plot, it is just some symbolic that some might catch and some not, but they could equally enjoy the story because the story doesn't depend on that fact. The same like all the Weasleys having red hair. They could have the same nature if they had black hair, but the red hair makes the story more interesting or fun. It is very important for Harry to fall in love and to find the right girl for him because he is not just a hero but a human as well. His purpose is to show that any human being can be a hero fighting for the good and it is normal for the human to fall in love. It could have been Cho Chang. But she is just good looking and clever and the only connection between her and Harry is Cedric. While Ginny gave her contribution in fight against Voldemort, and I guess that that is what makes her worthy of the hero, the contribution. It could have been Hermione, but that would destroy the balance of the trio. I agree that it could have been Luna, in the same way that Ginny is, I don't see her as more or less worth, and it turned out to be Ginny. I'm sure that Harry and Ginny had much more opportunities to get to know each other better than Luna and Harry had.

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xray - Feb 25, 2007 1:53 pm (#1853 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
And there is NO WAY that they are total equals. - DZ

They are equals because Jo says they are. Perhaps you're not realizing that Jo has the books finished in her mind. This facet excites me because I anticipate seeing much more of Ginny in Deathly Hallows and finding out why Jo says they're equals.

I don't care much what Jo says in interviews anyway. If she wants me to know something, she can put it in the books, where I can read it and see that's the way it should be.

True, but they're canon nonetheless. People who study Harry Potter in the future will have these interviews to clarify questions they might have regarding the books.

Maybe I can't get intersted [sic] in Ginny because I still have the strong feeling Harry might have to die to win. I'm not sure. But eh fact that he is so intertwined with Voldemort seems to be the most interesting part of the plot to me not which ditsy girl he snogs when he's sixteen.

I don't know about that. Hatred for characters intended to be loved hampers enjoyment of the books. It's not too late... turn back, just like Darth Vader did... come to the good side and enjoy reading again.

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Catherine - Feb 25, 2007 2:11 pm (#1854 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
But eh fact that he is so intertwined with Voldemort seems to be the most interesting part of the plot to me not which ditsy girl he snogs when he's sixteen.

Hmm..I don't find Ginny (or Cho) ditsy at all.

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Eponine - Feb 25, 2007 3:02 pm (#1855 of 2152)

I don't either, Catherine. Poor Cho might have had some issues during OotP (but honestly, who could blame her?), but she and Ginny are both far from ditsy.

I love the fact that we have the interviews and thoughts of the author. I would love to have picked the brains of certain authors, and I think we're incredibly lucky to have access to what she's given us.

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Denise P. - Feb 25, 2007 3:18 pm (#1856 of 2152)

Ravenclaw Pony
Both Ginny and Cho, to me, acted very much like their ages. Ginny is still quite young and the young are not exactly known for employing brain power when they should.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 25, 2007 7:29 pm (#1857 of 2152)

To answer one question, I find her interviews revolting, because they are used in debates, especially about Ginny, to confirm various points, when the fact is they can be interpreted in many ways. The idea that one poster thinks Jo meant that Harry and Ginny are emotional equals, while another may interpret that word equal as referring to magic or power or destiny is the perfect example. Plus, Jo is trying to give us information constantly without really giving us any information at all. We don't know what is going to happen yet, because we don't have the book. She has never outright lied that I know of, but she has misinterpreted many things to throw us off the track, so we will be able to read the books and be surprised. That's why I can't take everything she says totally literally. I don't know how to PROVE how she means it. I don't have the data to do that. She hasn't really given us that much access to anything at all that's concrete, except for the fact that now we know it's R/Hr and if we didn't get the anvil sized hints, we should go back and reread. I believe that. Therefore, if there is going to be a surprise concerning anyone's love life, I tend to think it will be Harry's, if he survives.

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journeymom - Feb 25, 2007 7:52 pm (#1858 of 2152)

Die Zim, really, revolting? Dog feces are revolting. Violent crimes are revolting. JKR's interviews are revolting? It's just a word, but this kind of hyperbole affects an emotional response from your fellow forum members, and it diminishes your argument.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 25, 2007 8:16 pm (#1859 of 2152)

Chemyst said I don't care if Ginny was in a Fifth Year Funk. Her treatment of Fleur was inexcusable and her mother should have stopped it ... but, oh yeah, her mum was behaving almost as poorly.

I'd like to defend the Weasley women in their War with Fleur. We have canon evidence that the Weasleys welcome non-family members warmly into their home and practically treat them like their own kin. The biggest example of course is Harry Potter. But another example is Hermione Granger. Look at how much time she has spent at the Burrow over the years. The Weasleys feed Harry & Hermione, give them a place to sleep, take them shopping at Diagon Alley, so their laundry, get them to the Hogwarts Express, buy them Christmas gifts, send them Easter Eggs, even include them in their family vacation to see the Quidditch World Cup.

We also have canon evidence that Fleur likes to mock any place that isn't her native France or Beauxbatons. We've seen her mock Hogwarts castle, the classes they teach, the food they serve, their system of grading etc. etc. etc.

There is no doubt in my mind she started making fun of the burrow (and its inhabitants)the second she arrived.

Intentionally making fun of someone and enjoying it as a sport is a form of cruelty.

There is more than enough evidence in my mind that Fleur is the gold medal winner in that sport.

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peachespig - Feb 25, 2007 8:38 pm (#1860 of 2152)

DZ: I find her interviews revolting...the fact is they can be interpreted in many ways. The idea that one poster thinks Jo meant that Harry and Ginny are emotional equals, while another may interpret that word equal as referring to magic or power or destiny is the perfect example.

It's certainly true that some things she says can be intepreted in different ways. On the other hand, I think we'll all agree that some other things Jo says are simple and straightforward. Now, in my opinion, her statement about "total equals" fits into the second category. In order to be sure what she meant, we'd better look at the context, since context is always key. Here's JKR's interview:

One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up... in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together.
The sentence before Jo says they are equals is "Harry has really grown". The sentence after she says they're equals is "they are worthy of each other." The sentence after that? They've "gone through a big emotional journey." Emotional! She's talking about them growing up. Not about magical ability, or Harry's quest to defeat Voldemort, or the prophecy, or anything else -- about growing up. I'm trying to look at this from all sorts of angles, but I can't for the life of me see this as meaning "total equals" in any sense but emotional.

DZ: She hasn't really given us that much access to anything at all that's concrete, except for the fact that now we know it's R/Hr and if we didn't get the anvil sized hints, we should go back and reread. I believe that.

Well, I've talked to people who won't accept that Jo said it's R/Hr, either, usually people in favor of Harry/Hermione. I've seen debates over what "it's" means, statements that her remark only applied to book 6 and meant nothing for the future, and posts convinced Jo only meant that Harry erroneously thinks that it's R/Hr. And then people will say she's tricky and you can't be sure of anything she says.

But I think that's giving up. Sometimes, she's not tricky at all. Sometimes she really does say something pretty simply.

It seems that when there's a strong emotional stake involved, people are much more willing to deny just about anything. But personally, I think JKR's statements about Harry and Ginny being equals and Ginny being Harry's ideal girl are every bit as transparent and clear as what she said about Ron and Hermione.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 25, 2007 11:12 pm (#1861 of 2152)

The argument about Ginny being under developed as a character reminds me very much of the arguments made about Tolkein's character of Arwen Evenstar and the figure of Susan Pevensie created by C.S. Lewis. neither of these characters were well developed and yet they play pivotal roles in their particular mythologies.

In terms of the importance of J.K Rowling's interviews as they relate to Ginny's character, I believe that interviews given by J.K. Rowling demonstrate to a certain degree her authorial intent with respect to the development of Ginny's character.

I would argue that the interviews are J.K. Rowling's method of reinforcing her authorial intent outside the confines of the books themselves. In my mind the interviews given by J.K. Rowling are akin to the letters and correspondence of C.S. Lewis and History of Middle Earth Series, The Unfinished Tales and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien each of which served to demonstrate the intent of Lewis and Tolkein as authors.

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sstabeler - Feb 26, 2007 3:12 am (#1862 of 2152)

Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 26, 2007 2:15 am
Yeah, the Ron/Ginny argument is nothing special between a brother and sister. Believe me, I have a little sister, and things can get VERY vicious between us sometimes, even almost to the point of violence ( HER starting the violence, not me) as for the Hermione/Ginny interaction- Hermione has basically said Ginny was no good as a seeker, plus implied she doesn't care about Harry's safety, implied Ginny wouldn't care whatever Harry did, to be honest, Hermione was almost implying Ginny was stupid. Now, myself, I think Ginny was right to lash out. Hell, I'd have done the same, and probably worse. ( and I'm around the same age as the trio in HBP, so I can talk from the mentality of soemone their age) Ginny isn't cruel, either. Cruel is Dudley's forte, not Ginny's.

- I edited this post to correct capitalization and punctuation. Please remember to use proper English and grammar as much as possible since we have members who do not use English as a primary language and may need to translate. - SE Jones

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rambkowalczyk - Feb 26, 2007 8:06 am (#1863 of 2152)

When it is said that Ginny and Harry bring out the worst in other I think it gets exaggerated. Certainly in book 6 there are many examples of arrogance by both Ginny and Harry.

But in OOp, when Harry was frustrated because he wanted to talk to Sirius, it was Ginny who helped give him hope that a way can be found.

It was also Ginny (again in book 5)who was able to get Harry to see clearly as to whether of not Voldemort was possessing him.

What Ginny can do is help Harry see beyond his anger and frustration.

In HBP Harry was obsessed with finding out what Draco was doing. Ron and Hermione didn't feel that Draco was being any different. What would Ginny have thought? Would she have supported Harry or would she think he was obsessed? Hard to say as she wasn't in the loop.

She knows of Harry's hatred towards Snape and yet doesn't comment on it except in the beginning of OOP when she says something to the effect that Bill doesn't think much of him either. One wonders what if anything she will say in book 7.

Although I think JKR has a tendency to make Ginny a Mary Sue character I think that one thing in her favor is that she listens to Harry. Yes part of it is because she was a little obsessed with with him and probably hung on to every word of his way to much. But if she matured (and I agree that JKR didn't write that part well) then she has learned to listen to what Harry is saying as opposed to what she wants him to say.

When she says she understands why Harry needs to break up with her to fight Voldemort--yes that sounds sappy. But if we just take it at face value, it does show a type of maturity--that she sees Harry Potter as he is; he has to, needs to confront Voldemort because he can not live while the other survives.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 26, 2007 8:33 am (#1864 of 2152)

Although I think JKR has a tendency to make Ginny a Mary Sue character -- rambkowalczyk

I'm one to talk, since I called Snape a borderline Marty Stu, but I really don't think Ginny meets the criteria for a Mary Sue. Rowling hasn't had her demonstrate more amazing abilities or prowess than the main characters. But anyway....

When she says she understands why Harry needs to break up with her to fight Voldemort--yes that sounds sappy. But if we just take it at face value, it does show a type of maturity--that she sees Harry Potter as he is; he has to, needs to confront Voldemort because he can not live while the other survives.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think Ginny accepts and understands all facets of Harry. She might have started out at ten hero worshipping only the hero, but now she loves all of him, including the hero. I think it important that any girl understand that part of him.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 26, 2007 9:36 am (#1865 of 2152)

The Weasleys did accept Harry into the family, but there are times when Ginny and Molly are not so nice to Hermione. Molly chose to believe Rita Skeeter without even considering Rita might be exaggerating about the girl Molly had actually had in her home and gotten to know. And Ginny was pretty harsh with Hermione about the Quidditch, choosing to support Harry's rckless use of a spell he didn't understand, that he got from a dodgy book, which almost led to him being guilty of murder. So the idea that Ginny and her family are usually accepting is not quite clear.

Her treatment of Fleur was especially nasty, and did lead Harry to not support someone he had come to be on good terms with in GoF. When she told him there was a lot of phlegm in the kitchen and he said he wouldn't step in it, that was playing along with the way Ginny was treating Fleur. You just don't treat someone like that when they are a guest in your house, and beloved by a member of your family. You have to remember, they are the ones trying to make their way in a new environment. And Fleur does love Bill. I don't doubt it after her speech in the hospital. At least at that point Ginny could have tried to be more accepting of her, but she still is sighing as she says she will have to accept Fleur as a sister in law, which leads Harry to make the joke about Fleur being ugly, again an unfair remark on Harry's part prompted by Ginny.

I don't see text to support Ginny understands all of Harry. aprticularly his background and his family issues. It might have been off page, but it wasn't on the page. And I don't think it's truly love. It may be some day, but it's not love now. They have a long way to go.

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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 26, 2007 9:45 am (#1866 of 2152)

I'm sorry if any of my comments created an atmosphere of incivility; that wasn't my intent. I'm pretty new around here, so I didn't know that this discussion has been acrimonious in the past.

I guess what bothers me the most about some of what I've read here, and at other sites, is this tendency to equate one's dislike of Ginny with what her position in the story is. People seem to be implying that because they dislike the character so intensely it means that she shouldn't have anything to do for the greater plot. That's the sense that I get from comments like "We've never seen how powerful she is.", or "She can't be Harry's equal.". Ginny, like every other character on the second tier, was created to serve a very specific purpose. Disliking her, or loathing her, is not going to change any of that.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 26, 2007 9:49 am (#1867 of 2152)

The only thing I have a huge problem with as far as Ginny being part of the plot is the idea tht she will have something to do with defeating Voldemort. Harry's the prophecy boy. That's his job. I am really hoping it comes done to just Tom and Harry. I don't like her, the way she is written, but I'm not saying she should not be in the last book at all. I just don't see her as the linchpin on which everything turns.

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Wanda - Feb 26, 2007 10:25 am (#1868 of 2152)

Editor
No-one ever said she was the lynch-pin or that she would have anything to do with defeating Voldemort. Ginny is just a character who happens to be important to our hero, and therefore important to his story.

And Fleur did have a habit of being a pain herself. Remember GOF... 'zis is nothing, we 'ave ice sculptures which don't melt, ze food is so much finer, if zere was a poltergeist we would have him out like zat!' etc etc blah blah blah moan moan. She was always moaning about things, why shouldn't Ginny moan back?!

And that comment about Fleur being ugly... that was just a joke to show Ginny he would never 'look' at another girl. My fiance and I frequently have similar jokes... it doesn't mean we're putting the person down, it's just a sign that we understand each other and we know how to make each other laugh.

Ginny only defended Harry about using Sectusempra (sp.?) because he didn't need Hermione nagging him at that moment. Ginny wasn't defending what he did, just getting Hermione to lay off him... he was after all in a pretty bad emotional state, and no one can say he didn't feel bad about almost killing Malfoy. We know he never intended it like that... and he was also disappointed about having to miss out on Quidditch. Hermione was sniping in a very 'I told you so' manner. She's not perfect either, you know.
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Jadelollipop - Feb 26, 2007 10:32 am (#1869 of 2152)

I agree that Ginny is not a lynch pin but I do think she may have some information re: Riddle that Harry may need -a piece of the puzzle if you will...Harry still will be the one to put it all together and use it Not to go off topic but the only one that I have seen treated as a lynch pin in that way is Hermione (Two against the Darkness argument) I seriously doubt that Harry will have to snog Ginny in front of LV to make him melt...

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peachespig - Feb 26, 2007 10:59 am (#1870 of 2152)

The tension between the Weasleys and Fleur, like the fight between Ginny and Hermione, is a case where it seems to be both sides are a little bit right and a little bit wrong. Fleur is rude, haughty, condescending, all that. But Molly took it too far at the end, implying Fleur didn't really love Bill, and to her credit she immediately realized her mistake and made peace with Fleur. Why do these things have to be judged where one side is evil and the other is innocent? Decent people with flaws get into fights and resent each other all the time.

The important part is the emotional journey they take, and to take a journey they have to make mistakes at the beginning!

Also, regarding H/G, Die Zimtzicke said:

And I don't think it's truly love. It may be some day, but it's not love now.

Well, sure. But because it's a book, we can be pretty sure it will be. I hear people say this a lot, so just to be on the record: there's a difference between judging characters as the human beings they are at a given moment, and judging their place within the books and their character arcs.

On the one hand, judged as a 16-year-old and a 15-year-old who had mutual crushes of various lengths leading to a brief relationship that ended due to circumstances, Harry and Ginny are probably too young to be "in love" in a mature, long-term sense. No offense to teenagers who use those words and genuinely mean them, of course, but viewed in the "real life" light it's too early to take the relationship seriously in the long term.

But viewed as characters in a book, I think it's clear to a lot of people that Harry and Ginny are the ones for each other; that the plot structure and the conventions of literature are leading them inevitably to be each other's "happily ever after" love interests, assuming both survive. And the author did nothing to dissuade us from this idea when she referred to Ginny as Harry's ideal girl/woman and so on.

So although as people circa the end of HBP their relationship hasn't yet reached anything long-term, a lot of readers (very reasonably, IMO) anticipate that it will because of the way the series works, and start enjoying the relationship in that way already. After all, happily ever after is the end, not the beginning, of a literary romance, in that it's the end of the plot arc -- and there's no reason we can't anticipate the destination while we enjoy the ride!

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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 26, 2007 1:51 pm (#1871 of 2152)

DZ: The only thing I have a huge problem with as far as Ginny being part of the plot is the idea tht she will have something to do with defeating Voldemort.

Do you have a huge problem with the idea that Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, Lupin, Tonks, McGonagall, etc., etc., etc. will have something to do with defeating Voldemort? Because they'll all have roles to play, just like Ginny will.

But here's the thing; every character but Harry will be in a supporting role. Harry, and Harry alone, is the lynchpin (to use your word). I don't think I've ever seen or heard anyone arguing against that idea. But he'll need all the help and support he can get, and that includes Ginny.

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haymoni - Feb 26, 2007 2:13 pm (#1872 of 2152)

I think Dumbledore's argument that Harry can defeat Voldy because he can love makes some readers think that his love for Ginny will some how be the key to Voldy's undoing.

Maybe it will, but I've never thought that.

He has love for and has known love from loads of folks. It is his capacity to love that will defeat Voldy.

And Snape jumping in front of an AK!!!!

Ginny will help Harry any way she can, just like Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, Luna, Neville, Lupin, etc. would.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 26, 2007 3:57 pm (#1873 of 2152)

Die Z,You just don't treat someone like that when they are a guest in your house, and beloved by a member of your family. You have to remember, they are the ones trying to make their way in a new environment.

Once again, I would like to point out your double standard. You state that hosts shouldn't be rude to guests, but then you think that it is perfectly acceptable for guests to be rude to their hosts. Maybe the reason Molly & Ginny doubted Fleur's love for Bill is because they couldn't believe you could love someone and turn around and be the epitome of rude to their kin.

Peachespig was probably being the most fair and level-headed by saying all parties were partly right and partly wrong.

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Sticky Glue - Feb 26, 2007 6:40 pm (#1874 of 2152)

I always felt that Ginny sort of Hero worships her brother Bill, and in some ways is a little jealous of him showing affection for someone else.

I have also wondered if Ginny and Mrs weasley may have wondered if Bill was under some sort of Veela spell and if they pushed Fleur a bit they could see if her effect on Bill changes.

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Elanor - Feb 26, 2007 11:16 pm (#1875 of 2152)

About Fleur, maybe that what Jo really wants to underline is cultural differences and the misunderstandings that can come from them.

For example, last year I spent two weeks in the UK, in winter, and I was freezing in the house where I had a room because I am used to houses being warmer inside in France. I hope I haven't been rude but definitely empathized with Fleur arriving in a castle like Hogwarts in winter then!

I think, but it is only IMO, that what Jo wants to emphasize is the fact that misunderstanding comes from people not knowing each other. In a way, this is not that far from the house-elf or werewolf prejudice. But if people learn to know each other, they will find out what others are really made of, and in Fleur's case, her love for Bill and her strength are what matter in the end. All that people need is to be willing to learn about the others. This is DD's message too, when he talks about the other schools.
Ginny, IMO, still needs to really hear that lesson.
And Fleur to start and wear Weasley jumpers!

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Luna Logic - Feb 27, 2007 2:43 am (#1876 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Feb 27, 2007 1:44 am
Nice post, Elanor, and I jump on your underlining of cultural differences and the misunderstandings that can come from them to ask a minor, but "cultural" question, from my reading of an exchange above:

- rambkowalczyk : Although I think JKR has a tendency to make Ginny a Mary Sue character
- Mrs Brisbee: I'm one to talk, since I called Snape a borderline Marty Stu, but I really don't think Ginny meets the criteria for a Mary Sue.
Sorry But who is Mary Sue? (And I do not dare to ask about Marty Stu !)

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Snuffles - Feb 27, 2007 2:56 am (#1877 of 2152)

Olivia
Elanor, If you ever come to the UK again in Winter, you can come and stay at my house. I can't stand a cold house

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xray - Feb 27, 2007 3:49 am (#1878 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Sorry But who is Mary Sue? (And I do not dare to ask about Marty Stu !) - Luna Logic

Hi Luna Logic,

A "Mary Sue" is a literary term given to a female character who is perfect.

Here's a better explanation.

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frogface - Feb 27, 2007 3:54 am (#1879 of 2152)

I wouldn't say JKR makes Ginny seem perfect at all. When Ginny had that massive arguement with Ron in HBP about Dean she was pretty nasty. Not very Mary Sue at all in my opinion! (Still think shes brilliant though! )

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peachespig - Feb 27, 2007 9:40 am (#1880 of 2152)

Mary Sue is one of those terms that was invented for one thing and gets used for another. Originally, "Mary Sue" referred to a particular kind of made-up, non-canon character in a fanfic. The idea was that it was a character put there by the fanfic author to represent themselves, and so consequently she would be perfect, fascinating, with a deep backstory and usually she would get together with a main character. It goes all the way back to Star Trek original series fanfic, I believe, where Ensign Mary Sue would save the Enterprise and snog with Kirk.

But then at some point, people also started saying that characters made by the author themselves were Mary Sues. This is a much more tenuous claim to make, because by that standard, the main original characters of a story usually fit the description. Harry, in particular, would be an ideal example! He's got a deep and significant backstory, he always wins in the end, eventually all the girls like him... and so on.

So I usually save the term for self-inserts in fanfic rather than the author's original characters. The author is allowed to make her own characters special if she wants to!

If it means anything for original characters I would say "character introduced late who has no apparent flaws, and takes over the storyline." Ginny wasn't introduced late, hasn't taken over the plot, and as frogface points out, is certainly not prefect...

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journeymom - Feb 27, 2007 10:13 am (#1881 of 2152)

peachespig, that's exactly my understanding of the definition of a Mary Sue as well. Clearly different from anything the Author creates.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 27, 2007 10:22 am (#1882 of 2152)

Elanor,
Ginny, IMO, still needs to really hear that lesson.

So does Fleur! Her final line in Half-Blood Prince was a stereo typical remark about British people. "Zey always over cook zer meat".

Now, I believe that JKR intended that remark to be funny. Indeed, it was one of the many times I laughed out loud while reading the book.

BUT....If Ginny had uttered a stereotypical remark about French people, the Ginny-haters of fandom would have crucified her!

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Elanor - Feb 27, 2007 11:13 am (#1883 of 2152)

Sunny, I agree! This is what I was thinking of when I said Fleur should start and wear Weasley jumpers, that is that she still needs to learn a lot too (though about the "meat" quote, I have always thought it was said jokingly). But she's found herself a great teacher in Bill, hasn't she? But this is Ginny's thread, maybe we should discuss it on Fleur's thread?

About Ginny, I do agree with Sticky Glue who was saying "I always felt that Ginny sort of Hero worships her brother Bill, and in some ways is a little jealous of him showing affection for someone else.". Time and seeing Bill happy may be just what will help Ginny accepting their wedding in the end.

(PS: Thanks Snuffles! )

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 27, 2007 11:35 am (#1884 of 2152)

I don't think Ginny is a Mary Sue, but I do think authors come up with them. In my opinon, Wesley Crusher was a classic one on Star Trek, and Riley and his wife were on Buffy.

I don't know how close Ginny was to Bill as he would have been at Hogwarts most of the year when she was a child. It was definitely a mistake when Jo had Ginny say she'd wanted to come to Hogwarts since Bill did, because she would probably have been about two years old then and not capable of understanding the implications.

One of the problems with Ginny is you can't discuss her without drifting into shipping, because she was apparently created simply to be the love interest in some fan's minds. She becomes worthy and goes on a journey, yes, but the journey is to become Harry's idealized love interest. Being Harry's girlfriend IS the whole point of Ginny Weasley.

I very seldom see anyone ask what Harry can do for Ginny, or how he can fulfill her, unless it's a comment involving sex or money. There's very little consideration for the needs of Ginny as a character in her own right. I just see a lot of comments on various boards about why Harry deserves to be a happy- Why, after all he's been through, he should get the girl- why Ginny will be there when he defeats Voldemort, like a prize he gets for winning. It comes across as an imbalanced relationship to me, because it seems she was made for him, and has no other reason to be there, aside from the chamber incident, and other characters could have been adapted to do that. It demeans her for me.

Ginny doesn't have her own identity for me, and I never see her and Harry negotiate anything, as one must in most relationships. That bothers me. She's just Harry's gift of self-fulfullment, and he doesn't have show interest in her ambitions, wants or opinons, or to do anything to fulfill HER needs. I blame them both for that, but it's easier for me to get frustrated with Ginny for taking that from him, since Harry is more developed and more important to the story and to me personally.

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haymoni - Feb 27, 2007 11:44 am (#1885 of 2152)

Maybe all she wants to do is snog.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 27, 2007 11:49 am (#1886 of 2152)

Don't encourage me like that...LOL!

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peachespig - Feb 27, 2007 12:16 pm (#1887 of 2152)

Wesley annoyed a lot of people, but I don't know.... I feel like the original meaning of Sue gets so diluted and it's used so broadly that eventually all it means across all usages is "Character I don't like." Wesley has the overperfectness but not the late arrival... I have no idea if he's an authorial self-insertion in any sense. But debating the definiton of Sue could go on forever, so...

I very seldom see anyone ask what Harry can do for Ginny, or how he can fulfill her, unless it's a comment involving sex or money.

Bzuh? Granted, we aren't inside Ginny's head and we have to surmise what it is about Harry that fulfills her, but it seems that they simply are very compatible and enjoy each other's company. Ginny had character development she needed to do, to grow up and stop being afraid of Harry and be herself. It seems that now that she has, they were simply happy together, as fun-loving, funny, slightly hotheaded people.

Are there really people who think Harry fulfills Ginny by providing her money? I am hard pressed to think of something less in keeping with the spirit of these books.

I never see her and Harry negotiate anything, as one must in most relationships.

They negotiated their break-up, I would say. They had little relationship drama while the were together, but that's okay -- Ron and Hermione are the ones with the drama. The dramatic underpinning of H/G at this point is not whether they are compatible -- they are. But it's saved from being a boring plot thread by the fact that they can't be together -- that's the drama.

I do agree that I wouldn't mind knowing a little more about what goes on in Ginny's head. DZ, maybe you can join me in hoping we get a couple chapters from Ginny's POV in DH! That way we could see what's going on at Hogwarts when the Trio are elsewhere, assuming they are in fact elsewhere, and get a better idea of how Ginny is fulfilled by Harry all at the same time. Wink

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Luna Logic - Feb 27, 2007 12:52 pm (#1888 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Thanks everyone for the Mary Sue explanations. I thought I had got it with xray : A "Mary Sue" is a literary term given to a female character who is perfect., then with xray link about fanfic, then with frogface saying: I wouldn't say JKR makes Ginny seem perfect at all. (...)Not very Mary Sue at all in my opinion! (Still think shes brilliant though! )
But during the following debate about Star Trek and Wesley (? asking myself, which one of the Weasley ?) I was lost again! No problem, I'm going to stick to the first answers: JKR says she made the perfect girl for Harry. Ginny is perfect for Harry, but no perfect herself. As Harry is no perfection either, all is right (IMO)
And Mary Sue? (Go on your own thread, Mary Sue!)

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S.E. Jones - Feb 27, 2007 2:18 pm (#1889 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Sorry, Luna Logic. Star Trek, I guess, would be another example of a cultural phenomenon (it's an old TV series made during the 1960s, of which many other installments were added throughout the years. Wesley Crusher was a character on one of those installments.). Hope that helped. Personally, I think 'Mary Sue' gets overused way too often as most characters (from all authors) contain a good piece of the author themselves, and most major characters (especially in a genre like this) have some complex and interesting background (if they didn't there would be no story).

I have to agree with DZ that Ginny and Harry's lack of conflict is troubling in the sense that we don't get to see the relationship develop (and I've never seen two people who were just great together automatically; I believe Ron and Hermione were meant for each other since I saw sparks fly on the train to Hogwarts in PS, be we see how they've had to get used to each other and get past certain personal failings to become a couple, just like people do in real life). The whole Ginny/Harry thing happened way too quickly for me in HBP. I felt a little better about it after a second and third read, as I started picking up very, very subtle mentions of Ginny here and there and hints toward the pairing. I still feel it was rushed, though (of course, I tend to feel the entire book was rushed).

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Deener - Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm (#1890 of 2152)

Finally, I have reached the end of the posts! I have had several arguments along the way, but there has always been someone there to say what I was thinking.

As for as the whole "lack of conflict" between Harry and Ginny thing goes, I think it all makes perfect sense. They have known each other (though admittedly not very well) for at least 5 years. In that time they have probably learned what ticks the other one off and know what not to do or say to each other.

The same thing happened to me. I knew my boyfriend for at least a year before we started dating; so when we did (start dating), we had several months before any kind of disagreement occurred.

Harry and Ginny are probably going through the same thing: a honeymoon period. They were only 'together' for a little while in the book, not enough time to have any real conflict.

As for the whole brother-sister argument thing, I have to agree with most of you. Seeing as my best friend is my boyfriend's younger sister, I see them fight a lot. Brothers and sisters know exactly what to say to set each other off.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 27, 2007 3:31 pm (#1891 of 2152)

Deener-Brothers and sisters know exactly what to say to set each other off.

Yes, absolutely! JKR has personal experience with this as well. In the biography on her website, Jo says that she and her sister "fought like wildcats imprisoned together in a small cage", and that her sister still has a scar from when Jo hit her with a battery when they were children.

You know, if Jo had written a Harry/Ginny relationship that had showed them disagreeing or fighting, then fans would have used that as evidence that the two were completely incompatible.

Once Ginny sunk Harry's potential other ships, there was no way certain sections of fandom were ever going to like her.

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S.E. Jones - Feb 27, 2007 3:48 pm (#1892 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Deener --They have known each other (though admittedly not very well) for at least 5 years. In that time they have probably learned what ticks the other one off and know what not to do or say to each other.--

I didn't necessarily mean we needed to see them fight after they got together in HBP, what I meant is we didn't really see them disagree or get used to each other much in the books preceeding it. We don't see them learning what ticks the other off the way we see Ron and Hermione do, or even the way we see Harry and Ron do or Harry and Hermione do. We don't see the groundwork for Harry and Ginny's friendship from which a romantic relationship could develop. Heck, we even kinda saw that with Harry and Cho more than we did Harry and Ginny. I know it's supposed to be there, but I think it's almost completely off-screen (sorta speak), but with a character as important as Harry (him being the title character of the series and all) that sort of development should be on-screen. My sister started dating her boyfriend several years after they became friends, but they still had to get used to each other (argue, annoy one another, figure out each other's like and dislikes, etc.) while becoming friends, I just would've liked to have seen that happen between Harry and Ginny on the page.

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rambkowalczyk - Feb 27, 2007 6:41 pm (#1893 of 2152)

Since I was the one who suggested that Ginny was a Mary Sue, I suppose I should define what I meant by that. I understand that most people feel that it is impossible for an author by definition to create a Mary Sue character. Since I wasn't being all that precise when I labeled Ginny, I have no problem with being corrected about this.

What I meant was that in the fifth book Ginny all of a sudden emerges with a personality. Up until OOP, I never understood why some people would speculate that Harry would fall for Ginny because Ginny essentially had no personality. There was nothing in the books that suggested Harry and Ginny would pair up.

OOP needed to show who Ginny was in addition to making her perfect for Harry. We see her throwing Dungbombs to see if there was an Imperturble Charm on the doors. We find out she uses Fred and George's brooms to practice Quidditch when they don't notice. She listens to Harry. She says the right thing to Harry. If some of her personality ,(Anything besides the fact that she blushes alot.)were introduced in POA or GOF I wouldn't be calling her a Mary Sue.

I do hope in DH, that we see Ginny and Harry disagree if only to show that people who are right for each other can disagree.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 27, 2007 8:07 pm (#1894 of 2152)

rambkowalczyk-What I meant was that in the fifth book Ginny all of a sudden emerges with a personality. Up until OOP, I never understood why some people would speculate that Harry would fall for Ginny because Ginny essentially had no personality. There was nothing in the books that suggested Harry and Ginny would pair up.

I respectfully disagree that there was nothing in the books that suggested that Harry and Ginny would pair up. I suspected it after reading book 1, and then officially predicted it after book 2.

Ron's line in COS was the biggest tip-off. "You don't know how unusual it is for her to be this quiet." The author introduced a character and then when out of her way to let you know that there was more to this character than what she was allowing you to see.

Now what would be the point of hiding Ginny's true personality? The only reason would be because the author had a future role for this character but didn't want the reader to see it yet. Since these books are Harry's story, the future role would have to revolve around him somehow.

This led many fans to correctly predicted Harry's final 'ship'. And believe me, nothing else I have predicted has even been remotely close! I don't think that Rowling ever meant the romances to be a mystery.

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Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2007 8:26 pm (#1895 of 2152)

Librarian
There were many clues of the Harry/Ginny pairing. In COS Harry gives the books received from Lockhart to Ginny. Ron would have been the more obvious recipient.

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xray - Feb 28, 2007 12:29 am (#1896 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I made a lengthy post regarding Harry/Ginny development in the first five books. It's over in the 'ship-'ship thread.

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Luna Logic - Feb 28, 2007 1:35 am (#1897 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Feb 28, 2007 12:43 am
Practicing to do and rename links, I will add this one xray H/G building up

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Sticky Glue - Feb 28, 2007 4:35 am (#1898 of 2152)

Xray - well done,

I had been thinking of doing some research myself along that line with Harry/ Ginny, but you have done it much better than I could have. Thankyou

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rambkowalczyk - Feb 28, 2007 3:48 pm (#1899 of 2152)

rebuttal to xray and Sunny.

I'll start by saying when all is said and written we may have to just agree to disagree as it is difficult to argue first impressions.

Prior to OOP, Ginny behaves as a love sick puppy becoming tongue-tied and blushing in Harry's presence nearly 24/7. (I know that is an exaggeration.) As a result we don't really get to know her. There is no clue that Ginny is going to be the girl for Harry.

The fact that she admires him from afar isn't enough. There is nothing that suggests that either she is perfect for Harry or that Harry is perfect for her in the first four books.

Using xrays compilations (using link from post 1896)

SS Ginny is at the train when Harry leaves and comes back. In the beginning she acts as a fan of a celebrity wanting to gawk at him. At the end well I can find my book and I don't remember anything remarkable. No hints here except hero worship.

COS The next four references take place after Harry arrives in the Burrow for the first time. It introduces to the reader an 11 year old girl with a serious crush on Harry who is afraid to be herself.

So yes maybe we get a hint from Ron that there is more to Ginny but the reader never sees it.

COS at Flourish and Blotts Ginny stands up to Draco saying that Harry doesn't want all that--referring of course to the unwanted fame.

Granted, Ginny has it right about that part of Harry's personality and she is taking a stand at risk of ridicule to herself. But imho, this is still Ginny with an idealized vision of Harry in her mind. She really has no way of knowing at this point who Harry is and what he is like.

The other two quotes from COS is about Ginny blushing after Malfoy says Potter doesn't like her valentine and Tom naming her fear that Harry won't like her. Neither adds dimension to Ginny's personality.

POA Two of the quotes are of Ginny being embarrassed in Harry's presence, when he sees her at Diagon Alley with Molly and Arthur and when she gives him a Valentine card. Again reinforcing the crush.

The other quote where they share a giggle at Percy impressing Penelope by wearing his prefect badge at the train station actually does show a shared moment and flatly contradicts any statement I made that there is no indication that Ginny has a personality. But one shared moment does not foreshadow Harry and Ginny getting together.

GOF For such a thick book xray has only documented 3 instances where Ginny is given any screen time. The first says that Ginny was always taken with him implying no change in her feelings since she was 11.

The next two refer to Ginny's disappointment that Harry asked her to the yule ball after she accepted Neville's invitation. By not dumping Neville she does show character, but it doesn't show why Harry and Ginny should be made for each other.

The only point I'm making is I think Ginny should have been written better. Somewhere in GOF, we could have seen a little of her sense of humor or of her resourcefulness.

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TomProffitt - Feb 28, 2007 4:45 pm (#1900 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
I think Harry's developing interest in Cho Chang is very comparable to the interest he develops for Ginny.

It is too early in the lives and development of Ginny and Harry to know based upon evidence if they are meant for each other and will have a lasting meaningful relationship. They have a realistic teen-age dating relationship. We have been told what the future could hold for them, but we should not expect to be seeing that type of relationship when they are fifteen and sixteen years old.

If we were to see Harry and Ginny at age twenty-five I would expect to see a different relationship between them.

I am satisfied with what has been presented to the reader.

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1901 to 1950)

Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 10:59 am

Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 28, 2007 4:58 pm (#1901 of 2152)
rambk-

In Jo's interview with the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet she states that she didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry kissed. She didn't want Harry taking note of Ginny until he had his fling with Cho. That's why she didn't show us Ginny's personality until book 5.

Once again, if there were no clues that Ginny was to be Harry's girl, why did so many of fandom predict correctly?

And again, the author pointed out to the readers that she wasn't showing us Ginny's real personality. Why hide a character's personality unless it was going to be significant later on?

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xray - Feb 28, 2007 5:32 pm (#1902 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
GOF For such a thick book xray has only documented 3 instances where Ginny is given any screen time. The first says that Ginny was always taken with him implying no change in her feelings since she was 11 - rambkowalczyk

Well, this is one of the interesting things about Ginny's development prior to OotP. It seems as if Harry and Ginny are purposely kept apart by the author up until such time when it was appropriate for more interaction between the two. In both PoA and GoF we see very little of Ginny. Just like in PoA, Ginny virtually disappears in GoF. She's brought in for appearances that strengthen Ginny->Harry. We have scenes from the Burrow where Harry is enjoying himself with all the Weasleys, the we see her on the platform saying goodbye to her brother Charlie, and the next time we see her is for the Yule Ball dialog, then poof, she's gone. It's as if Jo was trying hard to keep them apart.

The only point I'm making is I think Ginny should have been written better. Somewhere in GOF, we could have seen a little of her sense of humor or of her resourcefulness.

We did see a little of this in GoF but not much. The quotes I used in that other post were to show specifically Harry/Ginny development, not just Ginny. I'll see what I can dig up.

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Jadelollipop - Feb 28, 2007 8:35 pm (#1903 of 2152)

One of the ways that JKR hid Ginny was to make her seem younger than she was in the beginning...We firt meet Ginny on page 92 "9 3/4",piped a small girl who was holding her hand. "Mom, can't I go? Your'e not old enough Ginnynow be quiet On page 97 "Harry heard the little girl's voice.." I still remember how surprised when I read COS to find that Ginny was going to HW which meant she was 10 in SS...I had gotten the impression she was much younger...maybe 6... But the interaction Harry overheard between Ginny and Molly shows a bit of the future Ginny. She was quite talkative. She wanted to be with her brothers at HW... In COS she was hidden because Harry and Ron watched the Sorting through the window.."Ginny easily visible because of her vivid Weasley Hair" In GOF at the World Cup when Aiden Lynch was hurt... "he'll be okay, he only got ploughed" Charlie said reasurringly to Ginny.who was hanging over the side of the box, looking horror-struck" I know everyone has their own opinion but I figure she was really worried about the player and his injuries (compassion)

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frogface - Mar 1, 2007 4:39 am (#1904 of 2152)

I think the movie version of Ginny is being developed earlier on. In the GoF and PoA she only makes a few appearances but nothing is mentioned of her shyness. She comes across as the more confident and mature Ginny we are seeing in the OotP and HBP novels.

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Chemyst - Mar 1, 2007 4:51 am (#1905 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
"The fact that she admires him from afar isn't enough."

...Or admiration from afar may be a strong indication of how they were made for each other.
It seems that not bringing Ginny to the main scenes earlier is also an example of how Jo was making them for each other. One of Harry's most brutal adjustments to the Wizard world was how everyone was interested in him because he was "Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived." At some level, in her own immature way, Ginny recognizes this and backs off; she doesn't want to be one of those people who made him uncomfortable like, well, like Colin Creevey did. True, she goes overboard the opposite direction; but since she wasn't usually so "shy" I think we have to allow that is due to more than fear or awe alone– it was her clumsy way of showing respect for his feelings in those early years.

And by the time Ginny does figure out how to handle that aspect of her attraction, JKR slows things down by having Harry preoccupied first with Cho and then later, Harry spends nearly another full year worrying about what Ron might think. That was Harry's personality, not Ginny's, that kept her waiting off-page.

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Jadelollipop - Mar 1, 2007 7:19 am (#1906 of 2152)

bringing comments from Luna thread to Ginny thread as got into defense of Ginny.

1.Would this be the same Ginny that introduced Harry, and the reader, to the insulting nickname "Loony Lovegood"? The Ginny that trashed talked Luna to Hermione behind Luna's back?

2.Ginny started being nice to Luna after a while. Of course, this was after Harry was valuing Luna.

I assume that you are referring to Hermione's statement "Oh, for heaven's sake, Harry,you can do better than her,said Hermione.Ginny's told me all about her,apparently she'll only believe in things as long as their is no proof at all. Well I wouldn't expect anything else from someone whose father runs the Quibbler" Later on Ernie steps up to declare "it is not only weirdos who support you" For some reason people denigrate Ginny and not Hermione or Ernie (or even Lavender and Parvati who laughed at Luna). Ginny told the truth Luna believes in things that at this point have not been proven...that is not necessarily a bad thing...Called faith I think. It is true Ginny referred to Luna as Loony Lovegood but she was the one who told Harry and Neville not to run screaming but to go on in and share the carriage. "Don't be silly. said Ginny laughing, She's all right"...Had a good summer Luna? Ginny asked." This occurred at Harry's first meeting. She was already Luna's friend way before Harry valued anything about Luna.

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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2007 10:58 am (#1907 of 2152)

Librarian
Telling friends that others refer to Luna as Looney is not insulting it is just information. I don't particularly think that anything that Ginny says about Luna is insulting. You seem to want to kill the messenger. Peeves also refers to Lupin as Looney at one point. Can't remember where.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 1, 2007 4:10 pm (#1908 of 2152)

About Ginny being shown as younger than she is, I agree with that, but it does nothing to develop Ginny for me,and it goes on way too long. You're still getting(near the end of OotP) Harry implying Ginny is still young to go and help, that is, to be any use to him,and Bella calls her the little girl and everyone else feels they have to step up to protect her. That's why it's so jarring for me when Harry, after being around the Weasleys for years, and practically being another brother to her, suddenly gets hit with a chest monster in HBP.

And a lot of the scenes, especially in GoF that do show a bit of development, got cut for the films, and I can't figure out why, if they are important, such as Ron suggesting Harry ask her to the ball. Why would Jo, with script approval, let them do that, and then praise the films so highly?

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Chemyst - Mar 1, 2007 4:48 pm (#1909 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Why would Jo, with script approval, let them do that, and then praise the films so highly?
I think she considers any 'ship, even Harry's, as backdrop for her main story.

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Catherine - Mar 1, 2007 5:15 pm (#1910 of 2152)

Canon Seeker
Chemyst,

I agree with your analysis.

I think Jo doesn't "sweat the small stuff" on the films.

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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 1, 2007 7:02 pm (#1911 of 2152)

Chemyst: I think she considers any 'ship, even Harry's, as backdrop for her main story.

Exactly. All romance, even the Hero's, is background "filler". Besides, it's hardly the main feature of the books so why would anyone expect something different on film?

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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2007 8:16 pm (#1912 of 2152)

Librarian
I've never read that JKR has script approval. Where is this?

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peachespig - Mar 1, 2007 11:26 pm (#1913 of 2152)

Catherine: I think Jo doesn't "sweat the small stuff" on the films.

I agree. My impression is that she gets enough information to make sure the screenwriter isn't introducing a blatant contradiction to future events. But I've never had the feeling she nags them about which character development moments to be sure to include. I think she knows making a film is a challenge and they don't have all the luxuries she has as a writer, luxuries of time and detail.

Also, the original script usually has many scenes left out of the final film, and Jo may not have a say (or try to have a say) in which are dropped.

I'm not the biggest fan of the films, but I still noticed they stuck Ginny in the GoF movie a lot even when she had no lines. And I'm not sure what lesson I would draw about Ginny's appearance in the movies, anyway. That even though Jo's created an unfinished romantic subplot for her and Harry, and then said all these strongly positive things about the relationship in her interview, that she's actually sending us signals that she didn't really mean it by not insisting on more screen time for Ginny in the film adaptations? I dunno, I think I'll stick to focusing on the things she wrote or said herself, and weren't filtered through a producer, a director, a screenwriter, 87 actors and the Warner Brothers accounting department.

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Laura W - Mar 2, 2007 1:19 am (#1914 of 2152)


"and Bella calls her the little girl and everyone else feels they have to step up to protect her"


OoP, chapter 35 -- (Bellatrix): "Very well - take the smallest one. Let him watch while we torture the little girl."

Ginny is only one year younger than Harry. And she and Luna would be the same age. "Little girl" does seem like an odd term. Both she and Luna are 14 years old at this point. Maybe Bella picked Ginny to torture and referred to her in this manner because, physically, Ginny is smaller than all the others. (I do not actually know that; just trying to think why this part of the book was written the way it was.)

Laura

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Chemyst - Mar 2, 2007 5:40 am (#1915 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I've never read that JKR has script approval. Where is this? - Steve

From what I've read, "script approval" would be over-stating it. It was more like they sent her a script to check for any big potential problems, since they don't know the end they are working towards. Sorry, I don't keep track of sources on entertainment stuff; it was probably a link off HPANA.
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xray - Mar 2, 2007 11:01 am (#1916 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Actually when Jo signed with Warner Brothers, one of the things she insisted on was to have script approval. She mentions some of it in her old interviews.

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Chemyst - Mar 2, 2007 5:03 pm (#1917 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
You're right about the early interviews, xray. A quick search comes up with a lot of matches for "script approval" for interviews done in 1999. The more recent interviews I found had a change in tone and used sentences like "Warner Brothers gives me a lot of input," but not the specific word "approval." Hopefully that is enough info to answer the immediate question without straying off the point from book-Ginny's relative importance.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 2, 2007 8:38 pm (#1918 of 2152)

The son of the woman who wrote "Bridge to Terebithia" recently gave an interview where he said he would never have been able to get script approval for his late mother's work the way he did, unless Jo Rowling had paved the way by insisting on script approval for the Harry Potter films. I wish we could put up links to just anything here. I never know what you can put or what you can't, so I'm not going to put it up. But I also have more recent trade articles that also say Jo has script approval. Other sources have said that besides her. It's gotten talked about quite a bit in the industry. Give me some guidance here, on how to get people to those articles without causing trouble, and I'll be very grateful.

I know she has it, and since she has it, I don't know why she is letting them leave out so many of Ginny's scenes, and at the same time put in so much that wasn't originally there, such as the Yule Ball thing with Neville and Ginny having so much fun and staying up almost all night.

I can't accept that it's just that she considers the shipping a minor thing. She knows it's not to her fans.

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Sticky Glue - Mar 3, 2007 12:33 am (#1919 of 2152)

I thought that she only had script approval for the first 2 films - not the others.

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pennysieve - Mar 3, 2007 12:15 pm (#1920 of 2152)

Ginny is not portrayed in a negative light in the films. I see no reason, even if JKR has the ability to approve the scripts or not, to think that she'd be unhappy with the way Ginny's character appears in the movies.

I can't accept that it's just that she considers the shipping a minor thing. She knows it's not to her fans. DZ.

Not all HP fans are into shipping. Only a small fraction of the fans are into shipping and less than half of that fraction are unhappy about the canon pairing. I don't believe that she focusses much on shipping.
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Rosie Lu - Mar 4, 2007 2:20 am (#1921 of 2152)

Ginny has been fine in the films, and I expect her role in the films to grow in OotP and even more in HBP, much like the books.

She had a small role in the PS and PoA movies, but her roles in those books were small. I actually found her role in the GoF film to be bigger than it was in the book. I also found Neville's role to be much bigger, by giving him Dobby's role with the second task, which was probably warming audiences to his big role with the prophecy in OotP.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 4, 2007 4:33 am (#1922 of 2152)

Let it snow!
Die Zimtzicke --I wish we could put up links to just anything here. I never know what you can put or what you can't, so I'm not going to put it up.... Give me some guidance here, on how to get people to those articles without causing trouble, and I'll be very grateful.--

DZ, we do generally discourage links simply because we cannot take the time to screen all the links to be sure they are appropriate for all who read the forum (we have young kids viewing this site so we want any links to be appropriate for all ages). However, we do understand that sometimes, for the purposes of sharing information and discussion people do need to provide links, so here's some guidelines you can use with regard to linking: 1) Try to summarize or quote relevant material (within reason) rather than linking, 2) We are part of the HP Lexicon, so you can most definitely link to anything within the Lex, 3) Don't link to non-HP related pages unless you have a very particular reason (such as to give background info to add to your stance in a discussion), 4) If you are going to link to a source outside the Lexicon, try to make sure the pages you are linking to do not contain anything that is unsuitable for children, 5) If you do feel the need to link to a site that might have an article that is unsuitable for children (the site for "The New York Times" may have an article on HP, but may also contain other articles not appropriate for younger viewers), be sure to post a disclaimer that there may be inappropriate material found at the link. I think that'll do it. If you have more questions do not respond to this post, email me with the email address provided in my profile.

Also, I think any further discussion of the movies should be taken to the appropriate threads....

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Denise P. - Mar 5, 2007 6:35 am (#1923 of 2152)

Ravenclaw Pony
I moved 2 posts dealing with Ginny in the movies over to Geeky Movie Details

This thread is to discuss Ginny, from the books. Not Ginny as seen in the films or how much control JKR had over scripts of the movies.

Thanks!

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frogface - Mar 5, 2007 12:32 pm (#1924 of 2152)

Sorry Denise! I'll just repost the bits relevent to Ginny in the books as you suggested.

Ginny has been set up for a fairly big role in DH I feel, which may or may not be pivitol. But she will have a role to play and I imagine it will be a pretty important one.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 3, 2007 6:43 pm (#1925 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have read the discussions of when the Harry/Ginny relationship began to unfold. I am just in the middle of my latest reread of HBP and came across something. In Harry's first Potions class with Slughorn one of the potions that he had brewed was the Amortentia love potion. Hermoine's explanation was what caught my eye "and its supposed to smell differently to each of us, according to what attracts us." And then later in the Great Hall at the dinner table "and (Harry)he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon". Finding the potion smell very nice and then relating the smell to Ginny?

Now I'm not saying that Ginny used a love potion at that point but I am just thinking that Harry should have realized at that point that his feelings for Ginny were changing. Especially after getting upset about her sitting with her Dean on the train to school.

Am I reading this right and has it been discussed before or did I really find something no one else has.

Mickey

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totyle - Apr 3, 2007 11:28 pm (#1926 of 2152)

err..I rather thought it was rather obvious that we were to have picked on that! And I'm the type who never noticed anything subtle or otherwise in my reads until I'd come across the Lexicon and after that all my rereads would be punctuated with..Oh Now I see..!!

Perhaps the hint is more obvious to us women..I mean Harry didnt realise what he was smelling did he?!

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Critical Thinker - Apr 4, 2007 1:19 am (#1927 of 2152)

Just something to ponder on. Did anyone consider that Harry might die to protect Ginny, thus leaving the protection his mother gave to him and passing to her. The protection lasts until the commming of age. Harry will be 17 Ginny will still be 16. So when HP destroys all of the Horcruxes, LV goes after him and everyone close to him. Thus the powerful enough emotion to make another one. Harry dies to save Ginny giving her protection, and the AK reflects back to LV again. Since the Horcruxes have been destroyed he is truely "dead" now. Kind of a poetic justice, don't you think?

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totyle - Apr 4, 2007 1:30 am (#1928 of 2152)

I sort of think Harry's saved enough of the Weasleys and this last book perhaps it'd be one of the Weasleys who repays their life debt to Harry. But I dont know who...hoping its definitely not Ginny or Ron..

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Critical Thinker - Apr 4, 2007 4:12 am (#1929 of 2152)

Maybe it will be Percy.?! But does he owe his life to Harry? I don't ever remember Harry saving his life.

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haymoni - Apr 4, 2007 6:07 am (#1930 of 2152)

In Slughorn's class, Harry knew that the smell was something that he had smelled at the Burrow. He didn't equate it with Ginny though.

I don't think Ginny needed a love potion.

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Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 6:15 am (#1931 of 2152)

Nor do I.

By his sixth year, Harry's feelings for Ginny were taking a definite turn all on their own. The smell is, I believe, just the perfume that Ginny wears all the time. Harry has probably smelled it whenever he was at the Burrow or around her at school for a couple of years at least. (She might have begun wearing scent when she started going out with Michael Corner at the end of her third year.) It's just that Harry's new-found noticing of Ginny Weasley in a romantic way also includes his noticing of how she smells. JM2K

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haymoni - Apr 4, 2007 6:20 am (#1932 of 2152)

Yup - that's how I see it also.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 4, 2007 4:18 pm (#1933 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Shucks, You'll stole all of my momentum!!

Mickey

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Charlotte Ash - Apr 5, 2007 8:27 am (#1934 of 2152)

I really don't see any redundant defeats happening, Lily already used that protection thing on Harry, Voldemort would know if Harry dies to protect Ginny and not attack Ginny the same way, he's smarter than you think, he will have more than one way around it by now. Now we know Harrry cares a whole lot about Ginny, so much that he has given up their relationship to protect her from Voldemort and that is about all we know for sure. In the future, if Harry survives, there might be something left for Harry and Ginny, but who knows.

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Charlotte Ash - Apr 5, 2007 8:33 am (#1935 of 2152)

did you know that Ginny's name is really Ginevra? It's in the lexicon, but I thought it was interesting.

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haymoni - Apr 5, 2007 10:16 am (#1936 of 2152)

Yes - it was a bit of surprise when Jo released that information. Many folks thought she was Virginia.

Other folks tried to tie her to Gueneviere(?).

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journeymom - Apr 5, 2007 10:17 am (#1937 of 2152)

Charlotte, Ginevra is the Italian version of Guinevere, and it means "fair one". I don't think the emphasis is on the meaning, fair, but on the association with the name, Guinevere, Arthur's wife. Ginny's father is, of course, Arthur. Her brother's name is Percy. Percival was one of Arthur's knights who serched for the Holy Grail. Harry's quest for horcruxes (especially Helga Hufflepuff's cup) is can be compared to the Grail Quest. Hence my silly Monty Python Holy Grail avatar.

Ginevra also refers to juniper berries, which gin is made from, my favorite drink.

It occurs to me that you're already aware of the whole Arthurian legend connection, aren't you?

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Charlotte Ash - Apr 5, 2007 6:44 pm (#1938 of 2152)

Journeymom, I am of course familiar with the connection, and I tend to make other connections as well, not only in plot lines, but in magical possibilities.

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journeymom - Apr 6, 2007 11:53 am (#1939 of 2152)

Do elaborate! What magical possibilities?

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Charlotte Ash - Apr 6, 2007 8:56 pm (#1940 of 2152)

Ah well, I'll have to transfer those thoughts to another thread because it has nothing to do with Ginny and at the moment I can't remember coming up with magical possibilities about Ginny. She's just important and I know it, but I don't know how! I guess we'll have to read DH to find out. ~See DH or HBP threads for my thoughts...

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ginnyrules - Apr 10, 2007 7:57 pm (#1941 of 2152)

farming near the Burrow
Charlotte - I have read this whole discussion and from day one, I, too, have always seen and felt Ginny to be important to Harry's future.

The story is ultimately Jo's but somehow, I think Ginny will exhibit powers and maturity beyond what we have seen so far. Sometimes, despite what others seem to think, it is necessary to read between the lines, and sometimes even beneath the lines in order to understand what is happening.

I also put a lot of faith in what Jo says, in the sense that she wouldn't mention Ginny being the seventh daughter in a line of seventh children without that meaning something. Maybe it isn't what we think - but Jo doesn't lie - she just tells bits of the truth. (As do we all, if you think about it!)

And, I know sometimes a certain character just does not click with me. Usually if that is happening, then the story itself has a flaw in it. And so far, I have not seen any flaws worth worrying about in this lovely series. (I am a writer, and I know - keeping all the details straight in a short story is hard enough - I cannot imagine how it would be in seven very long, intricately plotted books!

I am really looking forward to DH - book and audiobook all ordered and coming express!

Carol, who is cheering for Ginny!

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xray - Apr 12, 2007 12:40 pm (#1942 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Hi Carol!

I too am cheering for Ginny

She's so likeable! I love how Jo has so subtly brought her along. In the first four books she was always way in the background but you just knew she and Harry would get together. In the fifth book she started to become much more prominent. Now in the sixth book she's Harry's love interest. We know she's a force to be reckoned with, so hopefully in Deathly Hallows she'll command a brilliant performance.

Raymond, who is smiling in anticipation of Ginny in DH.

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 21, 2007 1:58 am (#1943 of 2152)

Hi all, I have been cheering for Ginny, from book 2 and on!! I just love the way JKR has brought her along in the story. There are a lot of ways for her to go, or plots for Ginny to be part of in book 7. Also it is my hope that Harry and Ginny end up together in the end of DH.

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gankomon - May 11, 2007 2:59 pm (#1944 of 2152)

I should say that based both on the careful character/relationship development evident so far in the series, coupled with Ms. Rowling's own comments, that if Ginny and Harry both survive, then there is little doubt that they will indeed end up together.

As far as her role in future books, I agree with many of the predictions offered by others. To wit- if Hogwarts is open, Ginny will be the trio's eyes and ears there. She may indeed revive the DA as a support organization to Harry, similar to Dumbledore's Order of the Phoenix. She may also prove to hold or find the key to whatever wisdom Harry needs to complete his quest.

As a person, Ginny is easy to respect. As a witch, her size undoubtedly belies her power (Bat-Bogey Hex). Her sense of humor flows along the same lines as does Harry's- remember all the times they catch each others' eye and share a grin? She is smart, not easily dominated and definitely not a shrinking damsel in distress. She is a worthy heroine for our hero. A very attractive character, in all.

I would hope that Ginny survives, but I am sure that she will have a prominent role to play in the final act, whether she initially accompanies Harry, Ron and Hermione on the horcrux quest or not. I look forward to see what that role may be.

Regards,

gankomon
----------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
- Number 6

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Die Zimtzicke - May 11, 2007 8:20 pm (#1945 of 2152)

I see Ginny as totally boring and worthless as you all know. I have no respect for her, especially after all the shrieking she did at other characters in HBP.

I'd think more of the bat bogey hex if I'd acutally seen it, and more of her power if she hadn't been a dud in two battles, and could do some other decent spell besides the one we hear about and never see.

She grins at Harry many times, and he notices it, but he does not ALWAYS grin back. He certainly does not confide in her, or involve her in his destiny.

She was quite easily dominated by a young Tom Riddle, and doesn't stand up to Harry that much, She certainly backed off when she wanted to talk about dementors and he wanted to continue the tattoo conversation, and when she confronted him about using a magic book and he brushed her off. Not to mention the breakup scene.

I consider someone who needed rescuing in CoS, OotP AND HBP very much a damsel in distress, and she is unattractive in my opinion besides, because of her hot temper, and virulent moods.

If you like her, good for you, but not everyone does. Consider me a gentle reminder of the fleeting nature of popularity.

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xray - May 11, 2007 11:30 pm (#1946 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I like Ginny a lot. She's spunky, powerful, fun, and loveable. It's too bad for you, and you alone, that you don't like her.

If you like her, good for you, but not everyone does.

No, maybe not. Out of about 300 million people, you and an extremely small handful of others don't. Believe me, you're in a VERY small minority.

By the way, why do you peruse this thread if you hate Ginny?

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Eponine - May 12, 2007 4:48 am (#1947 of 2152)

Trust me, Die. I don't think we're going to forget that you can't stand her. You remind us every time this thread gets revived.

Personally, she's one of my favorite characters. I think she's going to be very important in DH.

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Elanor - May 12, 2007 5:21 am (#1948 of 2152)

I do not hate Ginny, but I did find the development of her character in the HBP to be a bit disappointing. I had liked her in the first books of the series, and really liked the way she was growing up through them, especially in OotP. But, in the HBP, I found her unnecessarily harsh and, at the same time, I'd have liked her to show more magical skills -- her only described as being good at performing the Bat-Bogey Hex being a bit short (IMO) to prove she is really as powerful as she's supposed to be. Just IMHO of course!

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Gatorgrad1991 - May 12, 2007 5:54 am (#1949 of 2152)

If you like her, good for you, but not everyone does. That can very easily be turned around; if you hate her good for you, but not everyone does.

As for considering you to be a "gentle reminder". . . Well, that's awfully tough since you insist on "reminding" the rest of us of how worthless and boring you think the character is every chance you get. Very Happy

I like Ginny. Lots. I've never viewed her development as shoddy, shaky, disappointing, etc. I think Jo succeeded in her plan of having Harry (and through him the reader) discover her gradually. She may have occupied a background space at times, but she was always within Harry's field of vision. I think most of the feeling against her is because people started out with a mildly bad opinion of her and just never bothered to let that opinion change as the character changed.

And the argument that if she mattered at all to the story Harry would have told her about the prophecy and the horcruxes is pure bunk. Harry gave his word to Dumbledore that he would tell NO ONE except Ron and Hermione, and he'll keep it. I think Ginny will find out a few things in DH, but it won't be from Harry.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 12, 2007 7:57 am (#1950 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Hey everybody, back off! Most of us know D's opinion and he is entitled to believe what he wants. If he doesn't agree with those of us who like the character, so be it. Let's get this thread back to discussing Ginny and not personal comments.

Mickey

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Ginny Weasley - Page 2 Empty Ginny Weasley (Post 1951 to 2000)

Post  Elanor Wed May 04, 2011 11:01 am

Chemyst - May 12, 2007 8:28 am (#1951 of 2152)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Consider me a gentle reminder of the fleeting nature of popularity. - Die Zimtzicke
Personally, I found this to be humorous in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way. I appreciate Die Zim's comments because they really have caused me to look at Ginny more objectively. It's got to be tough pulling off the metamorphosis from best friend's kid sister to love of one's life – and Ginny definitely hasn't done that gracefully!

An ironic thing is, of all the characters in the books who might actually make a statement like, "If you like her, good for you, but not everyone does," I see Ginny as being the most likely person to say that to someone and mean it. (In the nicest possible way, of course! ) If Ginny said it, we'd call her spunky.

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Pamzter - May 12, 2007 8:38 am (#1952 of 2152)

I don't think her behavior is any different/worse then any of the other characters who are making their way from childhood to teenager. They've all irritated the reader at some point.

Anyway, here's something new to throw in the mix that I haven't seen anywhere else: Harry and Ginny breaking up was just for show. The dialogue there has always seemed un-natural to me, maybe it's because they wrote it. Plus it seems a weird place to do it - at the funeral and in front of everyone. It would be a good way to take the attention off of Ginny and allow her to form another stealth group in support of the trio.

Any thoughts?

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Soul Search - May 12, 2007 1:17 pm (#1953 of 2152)

No doubt in my mind that Ginny will organize Neville, Luna, and some remenant of the DA into an attack group. The twins will equip them.

What I don't know is what they will do and how many will survive.

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Choices - May 12, 2007 2:13 pm (#1954 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Die Z - "....and she is unattractive in my opinion..."

I find this really interesting since we have never seen a picture of Ginny, we only have a vague description of her in the books. In my imagination, Ginny is a bright, red-haired girl who is very pretty, lively and out-going, and appealing to the boys at Hogwarts. She is A-OK in my book. :-)

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Chemyst - May 12, 2007 6:24 pm (#1955 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Die Z - "....and she is unattractive in my opinion..."
Choices - "....girl who is very pretty, lively and out-going, and appealing to the boys..."

It's true that we don't get much physical description of Ginny beyond the Weasley red hair; but in my mind's eye, I think I agree with both of you – or neither of you. It all depends upon which book you want to talk about. In her earlier years I see her as an average freckle-faced kid. The closest canon for her freckles is that in OP her appearance reminded Harry of George & Fred (who have freckles.) She would have been 13 that year and that is about the age that many girls begin to transform from plain to pretty. She will probably end up being just as lovely as Lily.

As long as Harry didn't think she was special, she wasn't. The more he loves her, the lovelier she'll become. I know it's a fairy tale cliché to have the ugly duckling become the swan, but I think that is the formula at work here. Ginny is being written for Harry; and if she ever gets to be her 'own person' it is largely because Harry will need/want her to be her own person. During the years Harry overlooked her, her features were unremarkable (at least to him.) Now that he is noticing her, she'll become delightfully noteworthy.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 12, 2007 6:37 pm (#1956 of 2152)

Thank you Mickey for reminding everyone you don't have to like Ginny to post in a thread about her. I appreciate that more than I can say.

Whether you like Ginny or not, I find it hard to imagine Ginny forming a new DA or similiar organization. That group existed soley because of Harry's skills at defense against the Dark Arts. It lived and died at Harry Potters's whim, by the strength of his reputation. What could Ginny bring to the table in her own group that would be strong enough to have the pull Harry had? And who would come to a group of hers?

Maybe Luna and Neville would support her, yes, but Cho, Marietta and the twins have left school. The Creevey brothers had to be in the DA just because they were in awe of Harry as I see it. They're too well established as being Harry fans. Zacharias, Justin (whom she let get petrified) Dean and Michael would probably rot before they'd do anything under Ginny's guidance. And we know very few other kids who would be able come to Ginny's call. Romilda and the Parvati twins certainly wouldn't, I don't think, and Jo said she had already introduced most of the characters.

As for attractiveness, a girl who reminds Harry of the twins when she sets her jaw can't be attractive to everyone in the world. And physical beauty is not all there is to attractiveness anyway There's no way of knowing how many fans actually like her or dislike her. It varies from board to board. For every Ginny fan site, there is an anti-one, because I've been invited to join most of them, but I haven't got that kind of time.

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Eponine - May 12, 2007 7:00 pm (#1957 of 2152)

You know, I can't understand why Ginny reminding Harry of the twins at one point in all the books because of the way she set her jaw in determination is a bad thing. Family resemblance doesn't mean she's manly. I know quite a few girls who look like their brothers or their fathers, and they're still beautiful women.

Perhaps Ginny, Neville and Luna are all that will be needed for Harry during DH. If she doesn't accompany them on the Horcrux hunt (which I highly doubt she will), she's going to be doing something. She's not the type to sit at home darning socks. Ginny, Neville and Luna will do something very important in DH, even if it's just the three of them.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 12, 2007 10:10 pm (#1958 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Well Die, don't think that my support for your post, means I agree with you as I don't. But I will stand by your right to believe(and post) what you want too. Personally I'm in the "Snape is evil camp".

I believe that Ginny for the amount of time we have seen her is one of the strongest characters outside of HRH. (Speaking only of students.) Only Neville and Draco have had there characters more fully developed. She is the only one other than Harry who has faced Tom. She is the only female in any of the books outside of Bella who has displayed any type of aggresive wand work. She is a strong character and since CoS has shown more confidence and stamina than any of the other females (with the possible exception of Hermoine).

I like Ginny and as that little olde wand maker says "I expect great things from her" in Deathly Hallows. JM2K's

Mickey

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Die Zimtzicke - May 13, 2007 2:30 pm (#1959 of 2152)

What is considered aggressive wand work? The spell cleaning up the stinksap, or the bat bogey hex that we are told about but never actually see? Because there isn't much else to discuss.

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Rosie Lu - May 13, 2007 4:36 pm (#1960 of 2152)

The Bat Bogey Hex would be considered aggressive wand work, it's something four different people have been very impressed with. I have a feeling we may just see it up close and personal in DH. Although, to be honest, I've been fine not reading about the detailed description. Wink

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MickeyCee3948 - May 13, 2007 4:41 pm (#1961 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have to agree with Rosie Lu. Professor Slughorn saw her use the hex and both of her twin brothers and Ron cringe at the thought of her hex. All four of those people felt that it was rather good wand work. Since we are not allowed to see more of Ginny until the last half of HBP, I don't believe we can make a determination that her magical abilities are lacking.

Mickey

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frogface - May 14, 2007 11:31 am (#1962 of 2152)

She came out of the Battle of the Department of Mysteries with nothing more than a twisted ankle. Hermione is a very capable witch and her injuries were much worse. She also survived the battle at Hogwarts the next year and came out unscathed. So I'd say its logical to assume she's pretty good when it comes to magical combat.

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gankomon - May 14, 2007 2:23 pm (#1963 of 2152)

All,

I am taken aback at the ferocity of opinion on this thread as regards this character. Ginny is an entirely fictional character who exists to serve a purpose in Ms. Rowling's series of books about Harry Potter. Based on the canonical evidence so far, that purpose appears to be as the lead character's romantic partner.

However, may I suggest that we concentrate on analysis of her character as described in canon, and try to avoid personal battles on these forums. We can agree to disagree about Ginny's character, but she does exist solely to serve Ms. Rowling's purpose.

I have nothing against Ginny- in fact I regard her character with a large degree of appreciation. However, I realise that she will not appeal to everyone. As I stated in an earlier post, I have been expecting her to become the romantic interest since Book Two. On balance, I would tend to agree that based on what we have been shown thus far in canon Ginny appears to be a talented witch and a forceful character. However, I am an appreciative reader of the series as a whole, no matter what outcome Ms. Rowling eventually brings us to.

Regards,

gankomon
-------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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2BMcsmom - May 14, 2007 2:41 pm (#1964 of 2152)

Well said gankomon.

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xray - May 14, 2007 4:22 pm (#1965 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
On balance, I would tend to agree that based on what we have been shown thus far in canon Ginny appears to be a talented witch and a forceful character.

I too agree. She's talented, forceful, powerful, and holds her own very well. I think readers who may not be convinced of this now will be by the conclusion of Deathly Hallows.

I'm looking forward to actually seeing Ginny's power in DH that has been alluded to thus far.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 14, 2007 4:26 pm (#1966 of 2152)

Ginny is NO good at magical combat in canon. When the Death Eater grabbed her ankle, she didn't throw any kind of hex at him apparently, and if she did it didn't work, so she got it broken. Then, in spite of the fact that she had her wand and her voice, she did nothing further. Neville, who is generally hapless, had neither, managed to keep fighting. Then in HBP, she was dodging curses, but not hitting anything. Harry had to show up and hit the Death eater who was toying wih her and laughing, thus saving the damsel in distress again.

I'm going to keep saying this every time, because it's not right to give Ginny attributes she does not have. She has done nothing powerful in the entire series that we can actually SEE.

If her only purpose is to be the love interst, the little reward Harry gets for winning, she's not a good character to me. I don't even like her, and I'm not especially keen to reduce her to Harry's brood mare. I can't see why people who do say they like her, are.

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2BMcsmom - May 14, 2007 4:42 pm (#1967 of 2152)

We do not get to see a lot of the things that DD and Voldmort are said to have done. But people see them as powerful wizards.

Edit: haymoni, I did not mean to start treading on that thin ice. My post was not suppose to come across that way.

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haymoni - May 14, 2007 4:46 pm (#1968 of 2152)

We are about to, once again, tread on thin ice here, folks.

Careful...

"Maintain low tones!"

Did we find out how Ginny did on her O.W.L.s?

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Rosie Lu - May 14, 2007 7:33 pm (#1969 of 2152)

2BMcsmom is right, we hear all the time about Dumbledore and Voldemort being very powerful, but we don't get to actually see Dumbledore in battle until the end of OotP. I doubt anyone questions if Dumbledore is powerful. He is because people say he is. It's the same with Ginny. People have said she's powerful, and I'm sure all the hints to her power will come to something in DH. Jo has said as much. Smile

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xray - May 14, 2007 8:00 pm (#1970 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
If her only purpose is to be the love interst[sic], the little reward Harry gets for winning, she's not a good character to me. I don't even like her, and I'm not especially keen to reduce her to Harry's brood mare. I can't see why people who do say they like her, are.

I don't think she's strictly set up to be Harry's "prize." That's lagniappe. Ginny's real power is yet to be discovered by the readers. Unfortunately those who refuse to accept the clues Rowling has provided won't understand Ginny.

Also, considering that you're upset, Die Z, that you haven't actually seen Ginny do anything, you realize that there are many things we're told and expected to accept despite not being actually shown it? Whether shown or told, it's still canon.

Did Riddle actually torment all those orphans? We never saw it, we were only told. Maybe Riddle is actually a really swell guy who suffered through a nasty smear campaign. If Jo wanted us to know he was a child-torturer she should have SHOWN it and not just TOLD us. We never saw him kill Morfin or his Dad and grandparents or Hepzibah Smith either. Speaking of which, we never saw Peter Pettigrew betray the Potters. We were only told. And you know, we've never SEEN anyone give anyone a love potion. We were only told. Sure, Ron SEEMS to have imbibed one, but we sure as heck didn't see anyone give it to him.

I can come up with hundreds of different things we were TOLD and not SHOWN. The bottom line is it's canon and we'll all experience her power in DH.

I ? Ginny.

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Hoot Owl - May 14, 2007 10:29 pm (#1971 of 2152)

Teacher
The OWLS were to be rescheduled at the end of HBP. So far Ginny hasn't even taken them yet. We could speculate on when and where they will be given, along with how well she will do.

How about early July at the MOM ? Or will they all head back to Hogsworts? Hogsmead?

Will she score 3 ,like her brothers Fred & George? 7 like her brother Ron and her "friend" Harry ? 10 like Hermione? 12 like her brothers Bill & Percy?

Any thoughts? Or should this be a poll?

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2BMcsmom - May 15, 2007 3:52 am (#1972 of 2152)

I thought they had taken the O.W.L.s before the DE showed up.

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Mrs Brisbee - May 15, 2007 3:57 am (#1973 of 2152)

I don't think we even know which elective courses she is taking or what her favorite subject is, let alone how well she does in school. I think the only hint we have that she is doing academically okay is that Mrs. Weasley hasn't complained about her like she has with Fred and George.

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rambkowalczyk - May 15, 2007 5:48 am (#1974 of 2152)

Ginny is NO good at magical combat in canon. When the Death Eater grabbed her ankle, she didn't throw any kind of hex at him apparently, and if she did it didn't work, so she got it broken. Then, in spite of the fact that she had her wand and her voice, she did nothing further. Neville, who is generally hapless, had neither, managed to keep fighting. Then in HBP, she was dodging curses, but not hitting anything. Harry had to show up and hit the Death eater who was toying wih her and laughing, thus saving the damsel in distress again. DZ

I think it is safe to say that Ginny is not the greatest of duelers as evidenced by the above facts. But neither is she terrible. She survived the attacks and she was an opponent that the Death Eaters had to deal with. Everyone working together had stopped the Death Eaters from getting the prophecy. Even Snape points out the irony of these seasoned Death Eaters being thwarted by teenagers.

Whether the Bat Bogey Hex is a display of powerful magic I suppose cannot be really proved one way or another, but this is a hex that Ginny does use to her advantage. It stopped Malfoy in OOP, and Slughorn invited her to the Slug Club after he saw her use it. I think Fred and/or George were impressed by her use of this spell making it seem that when she does this hex it is more impressive than when Ron does it.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 15, 2007 9:14 am (#1975 of 2152)

To find out why Dumbledore is a great wizard, or if Riddle actually tortured the orphans, you'd have to spend even more time in the past, and this is Harry's story. You have to concentrate the most on what concerns him. If any character should have been well represented, it should have been Ginny, since he is in Harry's inner circle. That's why it is disconcerting that she was not.

Also disconcerting are the flip-flops with her character. One example-She stands up to Malfoy so she supposedly knows instinctively that Harry doesn't like attention, but then in one book she sends a grumpy dwarf to sing for Harry, and in another she launches herself at him in roomful of 50 people, gets into a snogging exhibition with him, then stands by meekly as Harry checks out everyone in the room's response.

Great ways to not give him unnecessary attention, Ginny.

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xray - May 15, 2007 10:29 am (#1976 of 2152)

Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ahh so you're saying Ginny is more important than Dumbledore or Voldemort. That makes some sense. Your "hatred" of Ginny is more of a love/hate relationship than of pure abhorrence.

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juliebug - May 15, 2007 11:51 am (#1977 of 2152)

Uh-oh, them's fightin' words! Excuse me while I duck and cover from the impending wrath of Die Z.

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Luna Logic - May 15, 2007 12:00 pm (#1978 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
I will risk a question I had for quite a time, to Die Z (but I am not asking for an answer): Was it a hate at fist sight? Or a long constructed one?
For me I like and I have liked Ginny as described in the books. (in the films I don't know, I was surprised by her first appearence, but I get used to.)

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Die Zimtzicke - May 15, 2007 8:26 pm (#1979 of 2152)

I'd be happy to answer that question. I think I might have before, but I don't mind answering it again. I've never liked Ginny. I thought she was annoying at first. When she wanted to go goggle at Harry like a zoo animal, I was hoping Molly would slap her. She was described as if she were six years old, in my opinoin.

I thought she was incredibly stupid and self centered in CoS, the way she got sucked into the diary when her father had specifially told his kids to watch out for things like that. (It was like the fireman's kid burning down the house playing with matches.) And I hated the fact that when she came out of the chamber, she had no thought for what might have happened, but only cared if she was going to be expelled. I was delighted when she was not featured in a large way in PoA. I actually did like her a bit more in GoF. She looked like she might be getting a personality as something other than Harry's fan girl.

But alas, she was not getting over Harry, as she herself admitted. And I hated the way she treated other charcters in HBP, and the way we didn't get to see her become Harry's friend, and get to know the real Harry, and he her, on page before it turned into a snogfest, complete with blazing looks and chest monsters. I really loathe the chest monster metaphor.

And I'm not saying she's more improtant than Dumbledore or Voldemort. I just think the specific things that were given as examples of information told not shown in the previous post, were mostly things that had to do with the past, which is why I think Jo chose to write them that way.

We NEED to get to know Ginny, her motives, and what makes her tick, if she's really going to matter to Harry and/or how he defeats Voldemort. He's the protagonist, so I think it's bad writing that just about everything about her, if she's a major plot point, is told not shown. Especially since it's from Harry's point of view, and he could see or at least think more about what's going on with her, as opposed to trying to understand what Dumbledore's motives are, since he was used as an example.

Let's go back to that. Does everyone else agree that not showing Ginny's interactions with Harry is exactly the same as not showing why Dumbledore was a great wizard, or whether or not Tom tortured the other kids at the orphanage? I mean, even if you like her, isn't there something you wish Jo had actually shown you that she didn't? And please don't be like the guy on another board, who when asked that, answered the thing he would have liked to have seen was an actual sex scene.

Bleech. Not going there...

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Eponine - May 15, 2007 8:48 pm (#1980 of 2152)

And please don't be like the guy on another board, who when asked that, answered the thing he would have liked to have seen was an actual sex scene. - Die Z

You know, since I know exactly what you're referring to, he was joking. And since this isn't a place where he's going to see it and be able to respond, you shouldn't be bringing it up as if it was a serious argument.

But one thing I still don't understand that you say, Die, is how Harry seeing a family resemblance between Ginny and the twins one time in all the books is a bad thing. Why does that mean anything bad about her looks? Because she set her jaw in determination and Harry saw a family resemblance? It doesn't mean she's manly or ugly. There are quite a lot of females in this world who have striking similarities to male relatives who are still very feminine and beautiful.

And honestly, these books are about Harry. We don't really know what makes anyone tick other than him. Personally, I'm content with what Jo has given us about Ginny. Any more information about her motivations and hopes and dreams and what she wants to be when she grows up simply doesn't fit into the way these books are written. To my knowledge, Harry's never had a conversation about that kind of stuff with anyone, so why would he start now? These aren't touchy-feely books with everyone sitting around talking about their hopes and dreams. It's just not integral to the main plot, which is defeating Voldemort. Yeah, it might be nice to get more information on a lot of the characters, including Ginny, but it's not necessary.

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Jadelollipop - May 15, 2007 8:49 pm (#1981 of 2152)

In SS of course there was no actual interaction between Harry and Ginny although even then he noticed her...Yes the way it was written she seemed to be much younger than 10 yet in COS Harry made the attempt to speak with her. He was aware of her crush but did not tease or mock her about it...Ron teased him and he told Ron to be quiet...She was shy and quieter around Harry but we had hints of her true self in the fact that she stood up to Malfoy in COS, refused to cancel her date with Neville in GOF, stood up to Harry in OOTP...so I don't see why people think she changed between OOTP and HBP...She grew up and continues to grow up...It was Harry's perception that she was perfectly fine but Harry is not always right...I think this is shown in the "Lucky You" comment in OOTP...I don't understand the animosity re: her saying she never really gave up on Harry but always hoped..this does not mean she used Micheal or Dean...We saw Harry and Ginny began to become friends in OOTP...I do think Jo kept her hidden not only as Harry's Love Interest but because she has a tie to the main plotline as a result of her possession by Riddle in her first year...In approximately 66 days we will know what her final role is...

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rambkowalczyk - May 16, 2007 5:16 am (#1982 of 2152)

...so I don't see why people think she changed between OOTP and HBP...She grew up and continues to grow up..

To me the change was OOP from the previous books. It was like all of a sudden she was acting cool and was always saying the right thing. Prior to this book, it was difficult to know Ginny and what little interaction there was between Harry and Ginny doesn't prove to me that they were meant for each other. For me I had difficulty believing that she got over her crush just like that.

I hope in book 7 that Harry becomes annoyed with Ginny not because she's an annoying little twit but so their love is a little more realistic. Unlike DZ I was not annoyed by Ginny, nor do I think she is particularly bratty. In HBP, their love was too perfect. A little reality needs to come in to strengthen their love. They need a fight to become stronger.

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Chemyst - May 16, 2007 9:03 am (#1983 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Does everyone else agree that not showing Ginny's interactions with Harry is exactly the same as not showing why Dumbledore was a great wizard No, I think it is more a case of Rowling knowing the end from the beginning and being fearful of giving too much away.

… isn't there something you wish Jo had actually shown you that she didn't? Not much; although details on her recovery from the Chamber kidnapping were a bit skimpy. I don't want her to be shown so fully that it becomes logical for Harry to like her. I like the way Harry had been kept fairly clueless and oblivious to his own feelings toward her (apart from his hormonal chest monster.) I like that the shipping has been kept incidental to and not a prominently featured part of the plot. If we see too much of Ginny, it might upset that balance.
(I do like the chest monster metaphor for hormones; it nicely separates Harry's impulse from his reason.)

On flip-flops (edited for length) — -She stands up to Malfoy so she supposedly knows instinctively that Harry doesn't like attention, but then… she … 1 - sends grumpy dwarf, 2 - launches herself, 3 - gets into a snogging exhibition, then 4 - stands by meekly as Harry checks out everyone('s) response.
Great ways to not give him unnecessary attention, Ginny. - Die Z I never saw this as flip-flopping. I saw this as resembling a sibling kind of attitude: It's OK for her or a Gryffindor family member, but better not let outsider & archenemy try it.

How does seeing a family resemblance between Ginny and the twins … mean anything bad about her looks? - Eponine
Well, because she is being compared to the twins! If the purpose were to show her as good-looking, she would have been compared to Bill (before Fenrir). Comparing her with the twins makes her look ornery and strong-minded. That certainly does not mean she is ugly, but it fits 'sassy-cute' far better than it does 'gorgeous.'

They need a fight to become stronger. – ramb
No, they need a "foxhole" experience. A foxhole experience would allow them to have to make selfless choices for the other and force them to place full trust of their own life in the other without fighting each other. It would be very real but not destroy trust the way fighting does.

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Sunny Baudelaire - May 16, 2007 9:13 am (#1984 of 2152)

As far as an example of a woman who is beautiful but bears a strong family resemblance to a male: Liv Tyler. She looks so much like her father, and I don't know many people who would describe Liv Tyler as ugly.

JKR told us that Ginny is pretty in the scene on the Hogwarts Express where Pansy Parkinson states that a lot of men find her pretty. To say that she's described as ugly because she was compared to Fred and George is purposely twisting canon.

Die Z, I think you are being disingenuous on this board when you bash Ginny, but leave out the fact that you are a Harry/Luna shipper. You post as such on other boards, why do you leave that fact out here?

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Denise P. - May 16, 2007 9:18 am (#1985 of 2152)

Ravenclaw Pony
Because this is the Ginny board, not the 'shipping board, Luna or Harry board. Die Z is correct in not discussing that here.
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Jadelollipop - May 16, 2007 9:24 am (#1986 of 2152)

No, I think it is more a case of Rowling knowing the end from the beginning and being fearful of giving too much away.

This is definitely part of the total package...The unresolved plotline from COS which is a reason Harry saw Ginny as completely recovered yet we see hints otherwise (Lucky You for instance) The break up of H/G at end of HBP was designed to give them another obstacle...Harry knows his feelings now but that was a honeymoon phase of the relationship...His attempt to keep her safe at end of HBP echoes the attempts to keep her away from the DOM at end of OOTP... As far as a change from Books 1-4 and book 5 I see it as a natural progression...Hints of OOTP Ginny were seen in the earlier books One of them is the connection to the twins..they were the ones who looked after her most often (QWC for instance)She commented that the thing about the twins was knowing nothing was impossible if you had the nerve...The physical resemblance in her jawline shows her stubbornness more than anything...

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Thom Matheson - May 16, 2007 11:03 am (#1987 of 2152)

We are talking about a 15 y/o aren't we? Oh and a much more mature 16 1/2 y/o? That is an oximoron all by itself I think?

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gankomon - May 16, 2007 11:37 am (#1988 of 2152)

2BMcsmom wrote:

We do not get to see a lot of the things that DD and Voldmort are said to have done. But people see them as powerful wizards

While the majority of both Voldemort's actions and Dumbledore's actions are hidden from us as they are from Harry, we do see enought to agree that they are powerful wizards. We see a sample of Dumbeldore's power in the Battle of the Ministry, as we do of Voldemort's as well. In fact, to my memory that is the first time that we actually see both in a true wizard's duel with someone who could be considered their equal.

We also have Dumbledore's own evidence (and we know he is not forward about displaying or boasting of his powers) telling Harry that were it not "for my own prodigious skill" and Snape's help, the curse on Marvolo's ring would have killed him.

As regards Ginny, remember we only see her through Harry's eyes, and she rarely perorms curses in front of Harry, although when he does see her pratice magic, his reactions are positive- recall her performance in the DA lessons, and also when she is described as closing the casket, demonstrating that she has better than average resistance to Dark objects.

Otherwise, we have to rely on third-party sources. We have reports of her Bat-Bogey hex from her siblings and from Professor Slughorn. In fact, she would not otherwise have become a member of the "Slug Club". She is not related to anyone famous, nor is she famous in her own right. Slughorn's appreciation is based entirely upon her demonstrated power.

Therefore, I cannot accept the "Ginny is not a powerful witch" argument. Her injuries or lack thereof in the Ministry are irrelevant here, as all the student participants save Harry alone were physically injured- and Harry of course was seriously injured emotionally and psychologically.

I can understand the argument regarding Ginny's powers or lack therof, but I consider that we have been shown enough within canon to discount that argument. As regards Ginny's personality, I think she is in the main a suitable equal for the hero, again based on what we have seen in canon. However, I shall not be upset no matter what her ultimate destiny may be.

Regards,

gankomon
------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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journeymom - May 16, 2007 12:11 pm (#1989 of 2152)

I really don't get how the bat-bogey hex is supposed to be powerful. It's goofy. Flying boogers? But JKR says this is significant, and I trust JKR, so there ya go. I have faith in her and will just have to wait until DH before I pass judgement on the bat-bogey hex.

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Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 12:28 pm (#1990 of 2152)

I think the development of Ginny was fine through the first five books. I especially loved her in OotP. I certainly could have used more about Ginny in HBP-- it didn't have to be a lot, but a few lines now and then to flesh her out more would have been nice. I think Ginny's importance as a character went up when she became The Girl. From that point on, what Harry sees about her and knows about her is important because of what it tells us about the character of Harry-- and he after all is the hero. I have to wonder if he knows who her friends are, or what her favorite subject in school is, or not. He looks a bit self adsorbed not knowing these things. I'd like a little more depth if I am to believe this is the love of his life. I think I can wait for DH, though, to flesh things out. She is well drawn for a secondary character, I think, but not for the new role.

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rambkowalczyk - May 16, 2007 1:07 pm (#1991 of 2152)

No, they need a "foxhole" experience. A foxhole experience would allow them to have to make selfless choices for the other and force them to place full trust of their own life in the other without fighting each other. It would be very real but not destroy trust the way fighting does.

To some extant Harry has already made selfless choices for her. (saving her in COS, breaking up with her in hopes of making her less noticable). The foxhole experience usually works for two characters who are at odds with each other. Under the threat of death do they discover they have more in common than previously supposed. Harry and Ginny alread have this.

By fighting, I mean that Harry has to see Ginny's faults yell about them and then like her anyway.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 16, 2007 4:22 pm (#1992 of 2152)

Not to get stuck on shipping, which IS off topic, but I ship almost anything het EXCEPT H/G. I am first and foremost a dead Harry fan, or failing that, my second choice would be lone hero. That's why I want to know more about Ginny's characterization, not just her relationship to Harry, but to me she does not seem to have any other purpose or be good for anything else.

As for making selfless choices, Harry has done that for many characters, including Fleur's sister, whom he saved in GoF and Dudley, who he kept from being made soulless by the dementors. One he didn't know, and one he doesn't like, so doing it for Ginny, whom he does know, isn't surprising to me in any way.

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Chemyst - May 17, 2007 3:52 am (#1993 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
By fighting, I mean that Harry has to see Ginny's faults yell about them and then like her anyway.

If that is the way Harry is going to treat someone he likes, then I hope Ginny has the good sense to dump him.

Edit to add:

The foxhole experience usually works for two characters who are at odds with each other. — You define "foxhole" differently then; I think of it as the foxhole bonding two strangers who were fighting on the same side and had to trust the stranger with their life. Harry was still in the early stages of getting to know Ginny. She has been a best friend's kid sister and a teammate, but as was pointed out by Mrs. Brisbee, he is still a stranger when it comes to many aspects of her life.

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journeymom - May 17, 2007 10:08 am (#1994 of 2152)

Edited May 17, 2007 11:31 am
By fighting, I mean that Harry has to see Ginny's faults yell about them and then like her anyway.

If that is the way Harry is going to treat someone he likes, then I hope Ginny has the good sense to dump him.

Who doesn't fight with their mate? With my own limited experience, being married for 15 years, and dating for 7 years prior to that, I entirely agree that Harry and Ginny should have a couple of arguments (maybe people object to the word 'fight'?) and then make up in order for the relationship to look realistic, at least from a literary point of view. In reality we know that disagreeing, sometimes vociferously, is a normal, healthy part of relationships. It's to be expected. Harry and Ginny were together only a couple of months, and let's remember that they're all of, what, 15 and 17 y.o.? If they're going to get back together and be together for the rest of their lives, they can expect many, many more disagreements, some more heated than others.

What is a typical foxhole experience for a couple? The couple is isolated in an adverse situation. They have only each other to depend on for support and advise. I suppose the transition to parenthood would be the ultimate. In a way Harry and Ginny have already had a sort of foxhole experience, in that they've both had their run-ins with Voldemort, they fought together at the MoM. But this was prior to their getting together, so I don't think this counts.

I guess I'm bewildered. Arguing, or fighting or whatever, is such a normal part of any relationship. Arguing is not inherently bad. Why would Ginny dump Harry just for arguing with her? If Harry and Ginny were to argue and find they have irreconcilable differences, then that argument was very useful. They learned they don't have enough in common and should go their separate ways. Or, they work it out and realize they like this person in spite of their differences. This can only strengthen the relationship.

But I think this is all irrelevant, because this is not the sort of story JKR is writing. She's not writing a relationship story, she's writing an adventure.

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Soul Search - May 17, 2007 10:51 am (#1995 of 2152)

journeymom,

"She's not writing a relationship story, she's writing an adventure."

I have to disagree. Many more pages are spent developing relationships than on the adventure. If I had to consisely describe JKR's writing skill, it would be she is good with relationships. Not so much Harry/Ginny, but decidely Harry/Snape. It could even be said the Harry/Snape relationship dominates the whole series, much more than any of the adventures in the six books. I suspect Deathly Hallows will continue that trend.

I think you might already agree. For example, on another thread, you said:

"Maybe it's more of JKR's brilliant writing, because I can see how every interaction between Snape and Draco can be taken either way, as genuine caring for Draco or as Snape's efforts to get ahead (or at the very least to put down Gryffindor and Harry)."
Sort of describes JKR's development of the Draco/Snape relationship.

With that said, I see the Harry/Ginny relationship as one of those most poorly done. Well, maybe not "poorly," exactly, but most simply done. Compared to Harry/Snape or even Draco/Snape, the development seems rather obvious.

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journeymom - May 17, 2007 11:26 am (#1996 of 2152)

Okay, Soul Search, I'll give you that. I'll amend my wording,

She's not writing a romance, she's writing an adventure. In broad terms Harry Potter is categorized as an action/adventure/fantasy story, don't you think? It's not primarily about relationships in the way Bridgit Jones Diary or Pride and Prejudice is. Mr Journeymom complains that nothing blows up, there's not a single sword fight at any time during the movie Sense and Sensibility. People just walk around, talking. I tell him that's why it's so refreshing...

Anyway, I do agree that Harry's relationship with Snape dominates, and that Harry's relationship with Ginny has been portrayed, well, simply. And perhaps it was sprung on us too suddenly. Yes, we've had hints almost from the beginning that they might get together. I love Ginny and think she's perfect for him. But the development of their relationship in HBP should have been more explicit, just by a little bit. I believe so, even with the understanding that HP isn't primarily that kind of story.

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Soul Search - May 17, 2007 11:40 am (#1997 of 2152)

I agree. Well stated.

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gankomon - May 17, 2007 3:42 pm (#1998 of 2152)

Die Zimtzickie makes a good point in that Harry has made selfless sacrifice for a number of characters, and I agree that his rescue of Ginny from the diary Tom Riddle is not important in itself, as Harrry performs similar actions for other characters. However, I would argue that it is important as an indicator both of his heroism and of how he viewed the incident.

The incident also played a role in Ginny's ability to relate to Harry, as she is the only person other than himself who has experience with possession by Voldemort. This was vital in Book Five, as Ginny was able to both impart information regarding possession and also to give Harry comfort when he was worried about the potential of being possessed himself.

I agree that the Harry-Ginny relationship is one of the more obvious ones in the entire series. It has been apparent since Book Two for me, and the coming-together scene in Book Six held more of "an at-last she (she being Ms. Rowling) admitted it" feel than any other reaction. I do appreciate the Harry-Snape relationship for its complexity and its appeal for readers, but I think the Harry-Ginny relationship will have its role to play as well.

However, this is not a shipping thread (good thing too, as tariffs are rather exorbitant). So allow me to add my thoughts on foxholes. Having been in a few, the experience works as both Chemyst and rambkowalczyk say. It can make friends of enemies or create bonds between strangers.

Regards,

gankomon
---------------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 17, 2007 8:54 pm (#1999 of 2152)

Even I would agree with you all that Harry's rescuing Ginny from the chamber affected Ginny's ability to relate to Harry, as she is the only person other than himself that we know has experience with possession by Voldemort, if they had ever really talked in any detail at all about what happened. Not just "I forgot" and "lucky you". Ginny said that she found herself in places she didn't remember going, for example, but I think Harry already had a pretty good idea of that. I think the scene needed a bit more than that.

What information did we get out of that small conversation about possession, that was relevant to Harry or useful to him? He wasn't being possessed at the time, and when he was, the experience was totally different. Harry knew who he was, where he was, and what was going on, unlike Ginny. This was a totally different situation than Ginny's. Her information didn't prepare him, enlgihten him, or help him when that time came.

Ron, like Ginny, was also to give Harry comfort when he was worried about the possibility of being possessed himself, because Ron was able to confirm Harry had never left his bed. Hermione, also, like Ginny, able to give him confort because she reminded him he'd "had flashes of what Voldemort was up to" before, and that nor even Voldemort could have apparated Harry out of his dorm. What information or help did he get from Ginny that he could use, or didn't also get from others?

As for how he VIEWED the incident, as gankomon put it, has Harry even thought about it much since? Once he decided she looked perfectly happy again, he didn't seem to think about it much at all. And again, I wish I had seen that he did. It wouldn't have taken a lot. Just a couple of lines here or there. I want Harry to occasionally think more about what Ginny's thinking, wanting, or feeling, if she's really going to do something important.

As for the relationship being obvious, it seems it's too obvious to some, and not obvious at all to others.

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Chemyst - May 18, 2007 5:26 am (#2000 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
journeymom, just for clarity, the original quote I responded to was: By fighting, I mean that Harry has to see Ginny's faults, yell about them, and then like her anyway.

Yes, disagreements are a normal part of relationships. If the other party thinks a disagreement is best resolved by yelling first and making up later, that is a bit manic. Yelling is not a required element in problem solving. Ginny should avoid boyfriends who react to difficulty by yelling at her. That is all I meant.

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gankomon - May 18, 2007 7:57 am (#2001 of 2152)
Die Zimtzicke,

Yes, Harry's rescue of Ginny from the Chamber certainly affected Ginny and how she relates to Harry. As regards the possession scene, Ginny is the person who can actually calm Harry- Ron's testimony seems to serve more as corroborative evidence.

It is quite true that Harry was not being possessed. However, Harry believed he was being possessed, thanks to his eavesdropping on Alastor Moody's comment about "seeing things from inside Voldemort's snake." Therefore, the fact of Harry's possession is irrelevant- it is how Harry himself viewed the experience that is important. We the readers know he was not being possessed. But Harry believed himself to be possessed until Ginny, who really was possessed, was able to differentiate her experience with that of Harry. Ron's testimony of Harry reminaing in bed was the final proof, but it definitely appears to this reader that it was Ginny's analysis that had the inital calming effect.

I'm not sure what the ultimate effect of the Chamber rescue will be, but Ms. Rowling has said before that Book Two holds important clues as to how the series will ultimately end, so I think we must take a hard look at that scene, and its participants. As Ginny is a main subject of that scene, I believe it will come into play in Book Seven.

Forgive the long-windedness of this post. On an unrelated note, may I inquire as to the meaning of your chosen nom-de-plume? I regret I do not speak German.

Regards,

gankomon
-------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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Lina - May 18, 2007 9:13 am (#2002 of 2152)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Another thing that Ginny made by that comment:
- first, she noticed that Harry was avoiding other people
- second, she told him he shouldn't.

I think both is important.

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Sunny Baudelaire - May 18, 2007 9:20 am (#2003 of 2152)

As for the relationship being obvious, it seems it's too obvious to some, and not obvious at all to others.

Yes, like the O.J. Simpson trial. Some people thought there was plenty of evidence, others insist that there was no evidence at all.

People will never agree 100% on anything. JKR understands this, that's why she said prior the the publishing of Half-Blood Prince, that some people were not going to like it. I think she knew exactly who those people were and exactly why they were not going to like it.

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rambkowalczyk - May 19, 2007 5:01 am (#2004 of 2152)

Yes, disagreements are a normal part of relationships. If the other party thinks a disagreement is best resolved by yelling first and making up later, that is a bit manic. Yelling is not a required element in problem solving. Ginny should avoid boyfriends who react to difficulty by yelling at her. That is all I meant.

This explanation does explain your previous posts better. I suppose my use of the word yelling had colored your opinion. Journeymom's response to your original post more accurately expressed my opinion than what I originally said.

On the other hand, Harry can yell alot and not always rationally especially in the fifth book. In OOP he was continually yelling at Ron and Hermione because Dumbledore avoided him and Harry needed to let out his anger. Had Ron and Hermione not been so loyal, Harry could have lost the only friends he ever had. Harry yelled at Dumbledore at the end of OOP. Dumbledore did not lose his respect for Harry as a result of it.

At no point did Harry unleash his fury at Ginny--or one could argue that that when he started to--Ginny knew what to say to diffuse his anger. Maybe this is why JKR says they are meant for each other.

My original point is that Harry and Ginny have had no serious disagreements that would have lead to a full blown verbal fight. As we have seen in OOP and HBP, both have tempers. Should they have a fight would they survive it? JKR has said in interviews that they understand each other. I would like to see it demonstrated a bit better in DH.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 19, 2007 5:45 am (#2005 of 2152)

For those who asked, Die Zimtzicke means a crabby old woman. LOL!

As for a fight between Harry and Ginny, I think we are drifting into shipping again, but whenever they had the chance to do so, Ginny backed down, such as the "Lucky you" scene, the scene where he was Quidditch captain, and she called Ron a prat and he told her that wasnt her job, and the scene where she tried to question him about using an dodgy book. She could have pressed him on those issues, but chose not to. When they do disagree, she seems to me to be swallowing it, in contrast to her volatile temper elsewhere.

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frogface - May 19, 2007 7:00 am (#2006 of 2152)

I never saw the "lucky you" comment as Ginny backing down. Quite the reversal actually, it was a comment that made Harry back down and realise he was being a bit foolish.

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Choices - May 19, 2007 8:26 am (#2007 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Isn't it that Quidditch scene where she calls Ron a prat and when Harry tells her it isn't her job, she tells Harry that he seemed busy and she felt someone should call Ron a prat. I thought that was very spunky of her and it was also very funny.

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2BMcsmom - May 20, 2007 7:46 pm (#2008 of 2152)

There is a lot I want to say in regards to Ginny and the interactions she and Harry have had through this series. I am having a hard time wording what I want to say. The main thing is that Ginny and Harry have not had a lot of interaction until OOP. This is the first time that all six of the kids have spent that much time together. Harry is seeing more of her so we are getting to see more. And by this time she has grown up a good deal. I had more of a problem with Harry in this book then I did with any other character.

The love relationships between the teenagers is not a big focus in the books.(IMO) I feel that they have been put in to make the kids more realistic. So being, I have no problem with the way Ginny has turned out or how she has been written. There is more that I would like to know about her but I would like to know more about all the characters.

Having read the previous post, and knowing that JKR sometimes reads these threads, I wonder what she would think and feel. Some of the people posting here(I am in no way trying to start an argument or sound rude)seem to feel more contempt for Ginny than they do for Snape, Draco, or Voldemort. I am in awe. I do not think I have ever known of anyone else to feel this passionately about a character unless they created that character.

Sorry for rambling.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 20, 2007 9:34 pm (#2009 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
2BMcsmom Point well made. Some of us have gotten so involved and intertwined with the characters from the books that we seem to forget that they are just fictional creations of a very good author.

Mickey

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haymoni - May 21, 2007 6:48 pm (#2010 of 2152)

Just fictional creations!!!????? My head is spinning!!

Seriously, though - I completely agree with you, Mickey. We spend a lot of time with these characters and we are involved.

Maybe a little too involved.

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Gatorgrad1991 - May 22, 2007 5:42 am (#2011 of 2152)

2BMcsmom said: The love relationships between the teenagers is not a big focus in the books.(IMO) I feel that they have been put in to make the kids more realistic. So being, I have no problem with the way Ginny has turned out or how she has been written.

I agree with this so much I am feeling all warm and fuzzy. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU. There is so much vilification of Ginny based on erroneous interpretation of her canon relationship with Harry, i.e. she "used" Dean and Michael to get Harry's attention. I think it's very important to remember 1)romance is a sub-plot in the books and 2)all of the teenage characters are written in a realistic way with regard to romance/love.

I think one of the reasons why Ginny has come in for more of this shipping-based criticism than any other character is the simple fact that her primary "job" in the books is to be the Love Interest. That is not to say she doesn't have another role to play because I firmly believe she does. But as far as how her character relates to Harry it's about the romance. And I'll stop that train of thought now before it strays to far into shippy territory. Very Happy

Another criticism of Ginny that I've never understood is the idea that she doesn't care about Harry's quest/the war, etc. This seems to be based on the scene in HBP after Dumbeldore's death where Ginny goes to bed and then the Trio have their conversation about Horcruxes/Voldemort/Eileen Prince, etc. Now, I have read on another site someone speculate that Jo has deliberately created this situation of Ginny not knowing anything about the Horcruxes - Harry's promise to DD not to tell anyone besides Ron and Hermione and the aforementioned scene - in order to sort of ramp up the tension and make it an even bigger deal when Ginny does find out, presumably to connect back to her experience with the diary and the Chamber. Might this mean that something Ginny knows will be of major importance?

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Mrs Brisbee - May 22, 2007 6:16 am (#2012 of 2152)

Good point, Gatorgrad. She wasn't actually being possessed by Voldemort, but by one of his Horcruxes. Maybe her experience needs to be more closely examined by Harry.

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Steve Newton - May 22, 2007 6:19 am (#2013 of 2152)

Librarian
Wasn't she possessed by the memory Voldemort not the horcrux?

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Nathan Zimmermann - May 22, 2007 10:02 am (#2014 of 2152)

Steve, I agree Ginny was possessed by memory in the diary, the soul bit of Tom Riddle that was contained within the diary and not by the diary itself.

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Choices - May 22, 2007 12:10 pm (#2015 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm with Steve, it was Tom Riddle's memory that possessed Ginny. I don't think a bit of soul has the awareness or ability to act on it's own and possess someone.

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haymoni - May 22, 2007 6:03 pm (#2016 of 2152)

But that was the very thing that tipped Dumbledore off.

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Mrs Brisbee - May 22, 2007 7:20 pm (#2017 of 2152)

In the words of Diary Tom:

"So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted.... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little bit of my soul back into her..." (CoS, Ch 17, "The Heir of Slytherin")

Diary Tom specifically mentions the soul as what allows him to take over Ginny, and we know now that he did indeed have his own little bit of soul. I gathered that the Voldemort memory was fueled by and made adaptable by the bit of soul encased within it. I think but in no way can prove that the soulbit is more or less "blank" without the memories to program it. I thought it took both the memory and the soulbit working together to possess Ginny. In any case, the main part of Voldemort's soul wasn't involved. It was memories from fifty years in the past, and a small fraction of Voldemort's soul. Plus whatever enchantments had been put on the diary.

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Choices - May 22, 2007 8:18 pm (#2018 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I agree memory Tom did have a "bit" of help, but the soul bit did not act alone - it acted in conjunction with Tom.

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Steve Newton - May 23, 2007 6:18 am (#2019 of 2152)

Librarian
I wondered about the memory last night. We have seen other stored memories in the pensieve and they were totally unaware of others. Riddle's was not only aware but able to interact. More than just a memory is going on here and the horcrux is the only other factor that I can think of.

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Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2007 5:24 am (#2020 of 2152)

I wondered about the memory last night. We have seen other stored memories in the pensieve and they were totally unaware of others. Riddle's was not only aware but able to interact. More than just a memory is going on here and the horcrux is the only other factor that I can think of.

Which is one reason I think the soulbits in Hufflepuff's Cup and Slytherin's Locket are running the powers in those items. Maybe that's the lesson from Tom Riddle's Diary. I'm not sure what more Ginny herself could add. By Tom Riddle's whingeing, I gather she was trying to fight him at the end, and she actually remembers him coming out of the diary, so maybe there is something else she might know since Tom does like to prattle on about how great he is to anyone who can be made to listen. Maybe he let something slip that could prove useful in the Horcrux hunt.

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Mrs. Sirius - May 24, 2007 6:10 am (#2021 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I am sorry but didn't JK say at some point that there was no more lasting effects, than we have already seen, from diary on Ginny? or am I miss remembering?

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Eponine - May 24, 2007 6:47 am (#2022 of 2152)

She did say that particular soul bit was destroyed, and (I think) that Ginny definitely does not have any of Tom Riddle's soul still in her. I do think, however, that Ginny could possibly provide some useful information about Tom Riddle. I'm not sure if it's likely, but it's definitely possible.

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Gatorgrad1991 - May 24, 2007 10:45 am (#2023 of 2152)

JKR did say that the piece of soul inside the diary was destroyed completely, and if memory serves she strongly hinted that Ginny is unaffected in the sense of not having any part of Riddle still inside her. I think Ginny's contribution will be more along the lines of remembering something that Riddle may have told her. He clearly showed himself as willing to talk, especially if it was about his own brilliance, during his encounter with Harry in the Chamber, so I don't think it's far-fetched that he told Ginny something while he was manipulating her and trying to win her confidence.

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Soul Search - May 24, 2007 10:56 am (#2024 of 2152)

Gatorgrad1991,

"... I don't think it's far-fetched that he told Ginny something ..."

I like the idea, and agree. Unfortunately, the 16-year old Tom Riddle in the diary hadn't made the remaining horcruxes so wouldn't have had that information.

He could, however, have bragged to Ginny about tropheys he had collected and hidden, say, in the RoR storeroom. That would be a bit of a help to Harry. Anything along those lines.

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Gatorgrad1991 - May 27, 2007 11:44 am (#2025 of 2152)

Soul Search said: He could, however, have bragged to Ginny about tropheys he had collected and hidden, say, in the RoR storeroom. That's exactly what I think Ginny may know - something about Riddle's predilection for "trophies". It may not lead directly to a horcrux, but it may be an important clue. One of the reasons I think this may prove to be important (besides resolving the whole Ginny/Chamber of Secrets issue) is that in HBP there were a couple of items specifically mentioned in the RoR; made to verbally stand out from the rest of the jumble of items. I don't have my book, but I remember a "heavy, blood-stained axe" and a tiara as two of the items.

OK, back on-topic Very Happy

How many people think that one of the demonstrations of Ginny's power as a witch that we're supposed to see will be connected to a subject/type of magic that Harry doesn't excel at, i.e. a potion or transfiguration?

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MickeyCee3948 - May 27, 2007 5:01 pm (#2026 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Gatorgrad1991 Me thinks the tiara will be very, very important in DH. Just my opinion.

Mickey

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cindysuewho45 - Jun 12, 2007 11:01 pm (#2027 of 2152)

Hi all, I just love Ginny!!!! Also I was thinking that she could be the one to remember that the hart neckles is back at number 12 GP.

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Remi - Jul 3, 2007 4:39 pm (#2028 of 2152)

Dumbledore's woman through and through
Gatorgrad, I like your theory! Do we know anything about Ginny's wand? Maybe that will give us some insight into what she may excel at -besides the bat-bogy hexes- that Harry doesn't. Remember, their wands helped Lily be good at charms & James transfiguration (and helped foreshadow the charm Lily granted Harry against Voldie and James' animagus ability). Now you got me thinking ....

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Gatorgrad1991 - Jul 8, 2007 2:52 pm (#2029 of 2152)

Remi: Gatorgrad, I like your theory!

Thanks! *bows* It's just one of those things I wonder about. JKR keeps telling us that Ginny will be shown as powerful and I think it would be a nice balance if she showed herself as skilled in areas where Harry is "weak".

And I don't think we know anything about her wand; it may even be a hand-me-down. And maybe her power in Book 7 will come from a wand that chose her.

Hmmmmmmmm. . . .

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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 2:57 pm (#2030 of 2152)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Was anyone else suprised that Ginny wasn't made prefect in book six? Maybe I just missed it.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 8, 2007 5:26 pm (#2031 of 2152)

There was no mention of anyone becoming a prefect in that book. Not just Ginny. The whole prefect system was chucked. I liked it when we got to see who made prefect and I missed it.

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Chemyst - Jul 8, 2007 7:32 pm (#2032 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I guess I figured Ginny was a bit too much like Fred & George to be selected. I imagine the extra duties would cramp her style.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 9, 2007 7:23 am (#2033 of 2152)


There was no mention of anyone becoming a prefect in that book. Not just Ginny. The whole prefect system was chucked. I liked it when we got to see who made prefect and I missed it.


To be fair, there wasn't anything like this in book 3 or 4 either. Only when the Prefects actually somewhat matter to the storyline (Ron, Hermione, Percy, Draco, other students in Harry's year) it is mentioned.

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Hagsquid - Jul 9, 2007 7:47 am (#2034 of 2152)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
But I was curious, and kind of took for granted that both Luna and Ginny would likely become prefects. You would have thought that, at the very least, Ron would have razzed Ginny about her not being selected.

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Holly T. - Jul 9, 2007 7:57 am (#2035 of 2152)

I think this is a case of the stories being told from Harry's point of view. If Ginny or Luna had been made prefects then I think it would have been mentioned, but since it is not mentioned then the new prefects must be some other students we just don't know about because they are not relevant to the story. We don't know who any of the prefects are in Fred and George's class, we just know that they aren't Fred and George.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 19, 2007 10:43 pm (#2036 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I must say say this because it is the last chance. Reading these last several hundred posts, I have envisioned a party with all of us and characters from the book. Die Zmietke enters and starts to talk to the the vivacious girl in the room. He finds that she is quite charming, and intelligent, with a quick wit. She is not rude, mean or overbearing.

He walks away completely charmed, with Ginny!

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totyle - Jul 19, 2007 11:50 pm (#2037 of 2152)

Well...is Die a Guy? Sorry..I thout Die said in one oh his/her posts that Die Z means a Crabby Old Woman? Apologies Die if Ive misremembered or confused you with someone else!

Ginny didnt have any overt lines until OotP which then took many by surprise. I guess that's why most people who object to her object to her. That she seemed suddenly sprung on us...to me its rather typical actually..for the best friend to fall for sis..happens everywhere I reckon in real life! I can live with the way its written because I'd rather Ginny than Cho for Harry and Luna actually seems made for someone like minded. Someone who believes or has seen Crumple Horned Snorkles (I know I got that wrong!???)

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S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2007 1:28 am (#2038 of 2152)

Let it snow!
I have to agree with Holly T - there were prefects chosen but Harry doesn't personally know them and thus they are unimportant to the story. We also know that Ginny and Luna couldn't be prefects because neither of them leaves to go with Ron and Hermione to the Prefects compartment on the train (Luna is in Harry's cabin and Ginny sits with friends until Slughorn grabs her).

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 20, 2007 6:01 am (#2039 of 2152)


Well...is Die a Guy? Sorry..I thout Die said in one oh his/her posts that Die Z means a Crabby Old Woman? Apologies Die if Ive misremembered or confused you with someone else!


I'm from Germany and yes, that's what it means. ;-) "Die" is the German female article, and "Zimtzicke" means a nasty woman.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 20, 2007 7:01 am (#2040 of 2152)

Did I hear my name menitoned? Many times?

Look, I was just diappointed with Ginny, because she didn't do anything that impressed me, but everyone just raved about her. And since her only purpose seemed to be Harry's LI, which was an idea that was distasteful to me, you couldn't talk about her without Harry coming into it. If she'd done anything powerful or important, besides kiss Harry, I could have tolerated her.

We'll see if she really matters in a fight, or not, very soon. Maybe she'll finally impress me and you guys can have a good laugh at my expense. At my age, I'm not going to be hurt by it.

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Hagsquid - Jul 21, 2007 2:43 am (#2041 of 2152)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Die has apparently never been on the receiving end of one of her bat bogey hexes.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 24, 2007 11:12 pm (#2042 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Well...is Die a Guy? Sorry..I thout Die said in one oh his/her posts that Die Z means a Crabby Old Woman? Apologies Die if Ive misremembered or confused you with someone else! totyle

My apologies Die, but my German is non-existent. However, I do look forward (especially now) to continue these discussions. I Check the spoiler threads to see if anything has been posted.

Maritza

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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 7:05 pm (#2043 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Die Zimtzicke, I am waiting for your DH update on Ginny with baited breath!

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Puck - Aug 4, 2007 7:27 pm (#2044 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I still like Ginny, but really thought we'd see more of her. I wanted her to toss out some excellent stunning spells. I guess it was hard to see much of her since Haryy had to spend the year away from her. We did get hints to his feelings/worry for her, and how he missed her. Still, I really would have liked to see that reunion.

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Gatorgrad1991 - Aug 5, 2007 12:16 pm (#2045 of 2152)

I was a bit disappointed in the lack of Ginny being kick-butt on page, but was pleased with what kick-buttedness we got. I know a lot of the nay-sayers will continue to beat the told-not-shown dead horse, but I have no issue with that. Plus Harry's on-going feelings for her were pretty clearly shown, which was good. Very Happy

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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 2:32 pm (#2046 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
True, when she was allowed to fight, she was a sure aim. This was the third battle she's fought in against DE, and she's not even 17 yet. I'd say that makes her pretty tough. And we did see a softer side. Taking Harry's hand while waiting for others to reach the burrow, she face going white when Harry comments about going after LV.

And she did run the DA with Neville and Luna until her family went into hiding. Sneaking into Snape's office takes definate guts.

I don't mind not seeing her "kick butt", but would have liked to see her a bit more in general. I guess that's the point, as Harry would have liked to see her more, as well.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2007 9:33 am (#2047 of 2152)

Somebody call me?

Well, I was hoping Ginny would do something to make me like her in DH. Jo said she was powerful, Harry's equal and all that rot, but I didn't see that. She offered herself to Harry as a birthday gift, as if he had nothing else to remember her for, tried to run the DA with two other people, went with two other people to try to steal a sword and screwed up, and battled Bella with two other people and got no where. She still did not have any serious conversations with Harry. He just kept thinking of her hair and how well she could kiss. He never once thought about her feelings, and that made me angry with him. I wanted him to start thinking about what she might want or need. He could have at least stopped for one minute when she was with Fred's body, or after the battle.

She was exactly what many of us said she was...nothing, except Harry's snog toy. She had no other purpose than to live through the war and have Harry's babies, which is a waste because she had more potential. I certainly didn't see one scene where I thought she was Harry's equal in anything.

As far as battling goes, she went to one battle and broke her ankle, she spent one battle just hipping her hair around and dodging curses, and did nothing of note in the last except insist on being present. I can't believe people who really liked her think she got what she was due. I don't like her and I think she got the shaft. Luna interacted with Harry and helped him more than she did. Where was the promised power?

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 6, 2007 10:47 am (#2048 of 2152)

I rather agree with "Die Zimtzicke", except for the last part. It's not that I think Ginny was unhelpful. She was as worthy a fighter as everyone else in Hogwarts. What disappointed me, was, that she didn't matter for the storyline. She did nothing of any importance for the plot. Sure, she fought, but so did Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott or Katie Bell. In contrast, Neville and Luna, who are the two characters who IMO can best be compared to Ginny, were used very well and were given moments to shine. Ginny had no scene in the limelight at all. Even Trelawney got a more memorable scene in this book. And I think part of the disappointment I have is also due to Jo's interviews. She talked about Ginny being a strong fighter, Harry's equal and that we would see more of this in book 7. It's just that after reading this I expected more from Ginny in Deathly Hallows, than we really got. I was disappointed, even though I never was a fan of Ginny as a character.
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Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2007 11:30 am (#2049 of 2152)

Librarian
Die, I have to disagree with your particulars but agree with your conclusion. Ginny was active in two deadly battles and acquitted herself well. But...it all happened off camera and we were not shown. Even her going on to play professional Quidditch was only mentioned in an interview and not in the book. (I don't quite accept the interviews as canon except that someday the information may be in the encyclopedia. Then no problem.)

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Chemyst - Aug 6, 2007 4:15 pm (#2050 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
She offered herself to Harry as a birthday gift...
Die, when I read that scene in the book, I did an eye-roll in your honor.

Like Neville, I think Jo's interviews raised my expectations. I wanted her to be special for Harry. On the other hand, all Harry ever wanted was normal and ordinary, so I guess Ginny really is his perfect match.

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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 6, 2007 4:47 pm (#2051 of 2152)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I see Ginny as a carbon copy of her mother. NO ONE can deny that Molly had a great amount of motey going after Bella the way she did. And it didn't require any help from anyone for her to beat her. Even Tom and Harry were suprised with her wand work.

We had not seen anything from Molly in the prior books yet when called upon she rose to the occasion and defeated Tom's last lieutnant. I have no doubt that Ginny would be even more tenacious in battle if one of her children or Harry were threatened. I also was disappointed in her part in DH but I was not at anytime from SS thru DH disappointed in her character.

Mickey

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Puck - Aug 6, 2007 5:35 pm (#2052 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think she needs credit to just keep fighting after seeing not only her brother, Lupin, and Tonks dead, but Harry as well. She didn't wilt, but fought bravely. At the age of 16. How much more special do we want her to be? I'm happy with how she's written, I just wanting her to have more scenes. And a "moment of glory" ala Neville or Luna would have been great, too.

I do think it says alot about her, the way she comforts the wounded girl on the grounds, her voice cracking.

And she was the last thing Harry thought about before the AK hit. That's not just about snogging.

And when he sat with the map, staring at her dot in the tower, he wondering if she would know if he was thinking about her, wondering if she was okay. That's more than just a physical attraction.

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TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2007 6:14 pm (#2053 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
Early on Jo decided that she wanted to write about the three friends Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and did not want to write about Harry Potter and his girlfriend. So, how do you give Harry a girlfriend that fits his character, is worthy of him (and he her), and is not part of the main plot line? Jo had a pretty delicate balancing act to do and I thought she handled it well.

I think some of the over emphasis on Ginny in interviews is an over emphasis by fans and interviewers and not one on Jo's part. I don't think I've read a single interview where Jo was the one to bring up Ginny's character and point out how important she was. People were asking her about Harry's love interest and whether or not she was right for him. The emphasis was not Jo's and the build up was not Jo's.

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Remi - Aug 7, 2007 8:01 am (#2054 of 2152)

Dumbledore's woman through and through
Hope nobody minds, but here are just two quotes from Jo regarding Ginny ---

March 2004 chat:

"Do you plan for Ginny to take on a major character role in the next two books? JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful personality (and she always has been, remember Ron saying that she 'never shuts up' in Chamber of Secrets)?"

7/16/05 Interview:

"... the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman.... And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character."

Maybe simply because I really liked Ginny, I read between Jo's lines and was REALLY hoping that Ginny would play a very very very important role in Book 7 and would have more screen-time as well as - to use Tom's words - "a moment of glory ala Neville or Luna. I am sorry that didn't happen.

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Puck - Aug 7, 2007 10:09 am (#2055 of 2152)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes, well, we can always count on Hollywood to give us a nice reunion after the Hero conquers the Bad guy....

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 7, 2007 8:28 pm (#2056 of 2152)

So, before I go off into the sunset, or wherever crabby old women go when they move from one hobby to another, can most of us at least agree DH was NOT a book where Ginny's role was pivotal? I mean, she really did very little and most of what she did she along with others.

It would have been at least nice if she and Harry had talked more, and he had thought about other things more often than her kissing. If all he wanted was a girl to have a normal life with, it didn't have to be Ginny. What made her special, except the fact that she kisses like firewhiskey?

I knew the spoilers were real when I read Ginny was still jealous of Gabriella and Cho, and all she could think of to give him for his birthday was a snog so he wouldn't forget her.

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Wanda - Aug 8, 2007 2:25 am (#2057 of 2152)

Editor
I think what's so special about her is that she's the one he loves. Pure and simple, he's attracted to her. Sure, some might think that Luna is more 'worthy' of Harry, or maybe that she's 'deeper', but he doesn't fancy her. He fancies Ginny and he enjoys her company. That's a good enough explanation in my view as to why she's so special.

I thought the birthday kiss was perfect, she showed that she could think of nothing better to give him than a real tangible memory that would stay with him and help through his darkest hours. Lust and passion play an awfully big role in the early part of relationships... not everything is deep, sometimes you just want to kiss like there's no tomorrow.

Jealousy of other girls is perfectly normal... in my opinion it makes Ginny more human, not less. I don't expect her to be some perfect saint, and I don't think I'd like her at all if she was. As it is, I love her character. She's funny and gutsy, and she knows how to make Harry feel better.

I didn't expect her to be pivotal in this book, I only expected to her to be a talisman for Harry, something pure and happy for him to dwell on, to give him strength when he was weak and light when he was in the dark. And that is exactly what she did, in my opinion. Whenever he thought of her, all through the year, he felt a rush of love, and love is exactly what he needed to defeat Voldemort.

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Chemyst - Aug 8, 2007 5:05 am (#2058 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I didn't expect her to be pivotal in this book, I only expected to her to be a talisman...

Which is precisely why that character has never earned my emotional investment. Their "love" at the end of HBP came off as advanced puppy love. The "love" in DH came off as a memory of the month of fantasy-life they shared before Dumbldore died. When Harry needed strength, it was his mum's love that took the forest walk with him.

"Hey Mom! When I grow up, I want to be the Hero's talisman!" That was the Ginny we met in the train station in PS; and at the end, yes, she achieved her goal.

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Elanor - Aug 8, 2007 5:30 am (#2059 of 2152)

I do agree with you Chemyst and Die.

Ginny may be the one Harry marries in the end but her importance in Harry's quest is almost insignificant. Hermione, Luna, were the ones important for his journey to be successful (which is logical, from a symbolic point of view, but this is not the thread where to discuss it). Ginny has been in the battle in the end for a bit, but so did Luna (who is her age) and many, many other Hogwarts students (not to mention all that Ron and Hermione have done in the series when they were much younger than Ginny).

I, too, would have liked Ginny's character to have more depth, but even in the epilogue, which could have been the place where we could have seen how Harry and Ginny's "puppy love" had grown and matured, Harry's attention was focused almost only on his children and not on Ginny.

IMO, Harry is an extraordinary character with an extraordinary fate who has always dreamt of a banal and ordinary life and he ends up marrying who is, for me, a banal and ordinary character.

The Weasleys, as Harry grew up, have become "THE" family for him, the one he has always dreamt of. He truly becomes part of the Weasley family in the end. I guess he's earned that peace. He certainly paid a heavy price for it.

There is a French saying which says: "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît pas", that is "Heart has its reasons reason does not know." I guess it applies well to Harry and Ginny, at least for me.

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TomProffitt - Aug 8, 2007 5:57 am (#2060 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
I think the reason JKR kept Ginny's role minor and put the epilogue at a distant 19 years is her belief that 17 year olds aren't ready for true love and marriage. The relationship that Harry and Ginny had in the books was appropriate for their age, but not exactly the type of relationship ready for marriage. Fandom may have wanted more, but I think what we saw was appropriate.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 8, 2007 6:13 am (#2061 of 2152)

Alas, I have to agree also that Ginny was never pivotal to the plot. I didn't miss her for most of the book, because I was enjoying Harry, Ron, and Hermione doing their trio bit together. Since she wasn't in the book much, I was wishing Harry and Ginny's relationship had been had been constructed with more detail in HBP. I was really hoping she would get one pivotal moment-- I thought each of the DoM Six should get their moment in the sun-- maybe provide some bit of vital information or something, but her significance to the plot was entirely passive. She's an object to be loved, other people's plot point.

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 8, 2007 8:24 am (#2062 of 2152)


I think the reason JKR kept Ginny's role minor and put the epilogue at a distant 19 years is her belief that 17 year olds aren't ready for true love and marriage. The relationship that Harry and Ginny had in the books was appropriate for their age, but not exactly the type of relationship ready for marriage. Fandom may have wanted more, but I think what we saw was appropriate.


It isn't solely that, which disappointed me. Even though I do think, teenagers or not, JKR could have given us a scene, in which they actually talked with each other. As it is, Ginny's about the character, with Harry has about the least amount of interaction with. She certainly is from the sextet.

But, their romance quite aside, I just don't think Ginny was very well developed as a character. Her part was always to be Harry's future wife, and it shows. She doesn't matter for the overall storyline. She was the Damsell in Distress in book 2, a role typical for the love interest, but I'm glad it happened back in book 2 and not in the final one. But how this terrible time she had during this schoolyear affected her, was totally glossed over. There was one vague reference in OotP and that's it. Other characters (Sirius, Neville etc.) were given believable developments, given what they went through. For Ginny's development, her traumatic experience was totally ignored.

I liked her a lot in GoF and even though I found her development to abrupt, I thought she had the chance to come into her own after OotP. But she didn't. Her whole development and behaviour revolves around Harry in the last two books. She always behaves exactly the way Harry needed. How believable is that?

And of course in DH, it finally becomes crystall clear how irrelevant Ginny is as a character. Almost everyone else plays an important role in the final book, except her.

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 8, 2007 8:30 am (#2063 of 2152)

Continued:

In book 5, JKR created a second Trio in Ginny, Neville and Luna. In book 7, Neville and Luna step into the limelight and play important parts. Neville kills Nagini. Luna leads Harry to the Ravenclaw statue, stuns Alecto Carrow and later saves the Trio from the Dementors. Ginny does nothing. She is there and fights, yes, and she probably was a help as well, just like everybody. But she has no big "that's it" scene, like Neville and Luna do. The fact, that her main part is to be Harry's wife, does not mean, that she shouldn't have any impact on the real storyline. I'm sorry, I really like book 7 (it's my favourite) and JKR a lot, but I do think she failed regarding Ginny's development, and the fact that she praised her to heaven in her interviews only makes it worse, because it raises expectations, which were not fulfilled in Deathly Hallows, IMO.

Yeah, I agree with Mrs Brisbee, she isn't really a character, but a plot point.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2007 9:25 am (#2064 of 2152)

Well, I said from day one (and kept getting reamed for it) that she was nothing but a plot point, and her whole purpose was to be the prize Harry got for winning. I saw nothing in DH to change my mind. They could have had a few serious conversations. He could have thought of her love, her loyalty, her sense of humor, or the hope she gave him INSTEAD of the feel of her lips. He did not and the character suffered for it. She had potential that was wasted.

She might have known Harry better than I ever admitted, though. She gave hm a passionte kiss so he's have something to remember her by. Maybe she knew he wouldn't remember her for anything else.

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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 10:29 am (#2065 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I like Ginny - I see nothing to dislike her for - but I must admit she did not play as strong a role as I thought she would. She has been in the running from book one, but she just never seemed to get up enough steam to achieve the momentum needed to become an important character.

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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 8, 2007 11:03 am (#2066 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I am with you Choices. I would have liked Ginny to have played a bigger role. But I like the character as she was written. She was Harry's romantic interest yes, she gave very good, passionate kisses(not a bad thing when your being hunted down by the baddest dude on the block) and she was there for Harry. She never questioned his actions or his motives. She was the Ying for his Yang. I can live with that.

Mickey

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Good Evans - Aug 8, 2007 12:20 pm (#2067 of 2152)

Practically perfect in every way
I have to admit I have never been particularly a "ginny fan" and when other posters have made the point of bigging her up in the movies, I never saw it. an average type is my view of the actress that plays her. Anyway that aside, I like Ginnys character in that blazing look, gutsyness and sheer determination (or is it stubbornness?). She is the right girl for Harry in many ways - certainly Cho was never, but I did find Ginny's pettiness annoying - and I have always tried to give this over to her age but all the same - nasty about Fleur, Jealous/ wary of Gabrielle (why? she is much younger) it just seemed that Harry should have been with a more mature type, and Ginny is not particulary mature even though she is 16 and still has some growing to do. I'm going to stop rambling now....

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journeymom - Aug 8, 2007 4:07 pm (#2068 of 2152)

I think y'all expect way too much of Ginny. I agree with Tom's estimation.

Nastiness about Fleur- mind you, Ginny was 15 y.o. in HBP? Fleur was living with them. She was a little difficult to deal with. Fleur is the first outside woman. The first daughter/sister-in-law. I was hyper critical of my brother's fiance for a while. She did things differently! She had different ideas! And then I got engaged to an oldest, oldest of seven. Being the first daughter/sister-in-law in my husband's family I can tell you, it was difficult finding my place in that clan. I'm thinking that Molly and Ginny felt no one was good enough for their Bill. Plus, Fleur is this Veela, who inherently entices men just with the swish of her hair.

Jealous of Gabrielle- it was humorous. I thought Ginny's jealousy as portrayed in the movie OotP was cute, and I think the same thing about it in DH.

A more mature type- that's not fair. Ginny is as mature as any girl her age! She's same age Hermione was when she sent a flock of birds to attack Ron. They're just teenagers, so puppy love is about right.

============

Good Evans, I don't mean to pick on you! Your post is the one I could see as I was typing up my response.

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Good Evans - Aug 12, 2007 7:29 am (#2069 of 2152)

Practically perfect in every way
no problem Journeymom! I just dont happen to agree about Ginny - no harm done!!

I still think that she acted poorly towards Fleur. Maybe she was acting her age, but then I guess many of the other characters weren't (barring all Ron and Hermione squabbling). Fleur had done nothing to Ginny as far as we know, and if her jealousy was the driving force (which she kept up for a year) I just think it was a bit petty. I would have expected Ginny to shrug it off, even be pleased that her brother was getting married and she had been asked to be a bridesmaid. If she dissaproved so much why didnt she say -"no".

It is that, that I formulate my lack of maturity comment. Ginny is one character that JKR does portray as contrary - there are several examples of her being very mature and philospohical and then being a sily little girl (so tempted to put seely leetle girl lol). Perhaps I just can't work her out which is why I dont "warm" to her.

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Xenophilius - Aug 12, 2007 7:53 am (#2070 of 2152)

I think too much is being made of Ginny's immaturity. She is just being her mother's daughter, including sharing Molly's biases. At the beginning of HBP, all of the women in the Weasley clan had a dislike of Fleur. That includes Hermione who showed signs of jealosy in GoF and HBP.

I am beginning to think the references of Ginny's power is a backdoor way of telling us that Molly is an awesome witch. (The reverse of: If want to know what a girl will be like when she grown up look at her mother.)

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Good Evans - Aug 12, 2007 10:20 am (#2071 of 2152)

Practically perfect in every way
I hadn't thought of that angle xenophilius - bears some thougt!

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Sunny Baudelaire - Aug 12, 2007 2:31 pm (#2072 of 2152)

If Ginny had behaved as Fleur did, how many people would be defending her?

Let's say that the wedding was in France and Ginny and Molly went to France ahead of time to get to know Fleur's family. And Ginny very loudly announced to the Delacour's that there was nothing to do at their house unless you liked stinky cheese and champagne (insert your favorite French stereotypes here).

Then Ginny tossed her hair so that it slapped Mrs. Delacour across the face, followed by letting her know that her taste in entertainment was "horrible".

How many people would be defending Ginny if she engaged in any of that behavior?

Ginny wasn't being petty or jealous, she was defending herself and her family from the rude insults of an unspeakably nasty house guest.

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TomProffitt - Aug 12, 2007 3:04 pm (#2073 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
Ginny was behaving like a teenager, if the trio and Ginny acted like Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys I wouldn't have made it past the first book.

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Potteraholic - Aug 13, 2007 12:11 pm (#2074 of 2152)

"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
Edited Aug 13, 2007 12:43 pm

TomProffitt,
I read very little Nancy Drew about 30 years ago and no Hardy Boys at all. So from your post, I'm inferring that Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys were atypical teenagers: polite, unemotional, and bland. Am I right?

PS Sunny Baudelaire, are you a Lemony Snicket fan?

Edited to fix spelling error.

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TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2007 12:39 pm (#2075 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
Potterholic, they were complete role models. Strait A students, models of civic virtue. They'd never get a grade of a "B" much less detention hall. Boring. (Same author by the way, different pen names.)

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Good Evans - Aug 13, 2007 1:35 pm (#2076 of 2152)

Practically perfect in every way
I think Tom that that has ben my point - Ginny has behaved like a teenager, I dont see great maturity in Ginny on the whole through te books. Perhaps I have forgotten what being 14/15 is like - Nancy Drew was eternally 18 and behaved 30!!!

Fleur may not have been the most gracious guest in the world (indeed she is pretty ghastly at times) but that does not ever justify someone behaving badly back to them. I am afraid that I miss your point Sunny, sorry.

Ultimately we are all entitled to our opinions. Ginny is just not one of my most favourite chacters and I reserve that right!

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TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2007 1:38 pm (#2077 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
Ginny is one of my favorite characters, but if I was her Dad and caught her doing some of the stuff she does I'd be furious with her.

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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 14, 2007 9:32 pm (#2078 of 2152)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I was never able to get furious with my daughter, mad upon occasion but she would come crying to Dad and apolize and all would be forgiven. I doubt many fathers would have been that upset at their daughter.

Since Ginny grew up with five brothers and no female image of how a girl should act, I think her conduct was pretty tame. She never got into any trouble like the twins or even Ron got into with Harry.

Mickey

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Choices - Aug 15, 2007 10:12 am (#2079 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Mickey - "and no female image of how a girl should act"

How about Molly? I think she was an excellent role model for Ginny.

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Nicoline Vance - Aug 15, 2007 10:25 am (#2080 of 2152)

Since Ginny grew up with five brothers -Mickey

Are you saying that either Fred or George was a next door neighbor? I always loved that bit.

Actually, I think Ginny was better at not getting caught.

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 21, 2007 10:52 pm (#2081 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I was a Ginny fan, H-G 'shipper, practically from book 1. I just knew they were perfect together and something about Ginny would be central to Harry in his final confrontation/act.

Well, lets just say I was a bit disappointed. Harry remembering the feel of Ginny's lips in the showdown not-with-standing. This is a choice, however on the part of JKR. She gave Luna and Neville their due moments in the spotlight.

Ginny's only spotlight moment in DH was to be used to justify caplock Molly.

Ginny as a character has been used. She was used as a tool to give Harry the family he so deserved, she was used to spur Ron's development, and she was used to justify Molly's power. I cannot hold that against the character. She did not write herself. JK, had her reasons, which I think can be developed appropriately on the Severus Snape thread.

In some ways I see Ginny as the stud horse that is used on horse farms before the prize horse is given the opportunity to do his job. This horse is put in with a mare until just the point that she is ready, then the prize horse does the job. The stud horse is taken away with all of his potential and energy never used. (I use this example to show the build up of potential, not the physical act that follows)

Ginny has the potential, she can do anything, she could be great, it's all in there, a great thirst for proving herself, JKR just doesn't want to take us there.

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journeymom - Aug 21, 2007 11:37 pm (#2082 of 2152)

Dang! Now I feel all anxious...

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legolas returns - Sep 5, 2003 10:20 pm (#2083 of 2152)

Ginny was only sixteen and she survived the battle. She played her part in the war. She had less magical education than anyone else at school. Colin died sneaking back in.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 22, 2007 4:12 am (#2084 of 2152)

Ginny being only sixteen meant that she was still considered a child in the Wizarding World, and was treated like such. Harry, Ron, and Hermione could operate in the adult world. She could not, and whenever she tried she was always treated like a child by those around her, even Harry. The summer birthday thing was never so awkward!

I loved Ginny in OotP, not so much in HBP but I thought she was great at the end, and then she just fizzled in DH. If she was to be absent in DH, wish her relationship with Harry had been given more depth in HBP so I could have felt her absence more in this book, and understood what Harry was missing.

I thought Rowling might have been going somewhere with the relationship. Harry broke up with Ginny to protect her, but I thought he was having trouble reconciling his role as "The Chosen One" with his normal everyday self, and was treating Ginny like something that existed outside the war, somehow untouched by the turmoil if he just removed himself from the equation. I thought he would grow, and realize that of course she exists in the same war-torn world as he does, and she and her whole family are embroiled in it. I never got the sense that Harry understood that reality about Ginny.

I too am sad at the lost potential for the character of Ginny.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 22, 2007 12:05 pm (#2085 of 2152)

I loved the posts Mrs. Sirius and Mrs. Brisbee put up. God knows, I never liked Ginny as a character, but I still kept waiting for her to do something important.

Jo said she was special, the 7th child of a 7th child, and she was Harry's equal, and a powerful witch, and I thought sooner or later she'd do something grand, or at least her experience in the chamber would prove useful. Her big moments turned out to be her ability to kiss like firewhiskey and get pregnant. Don't get me wrong...I like kissing and I loved being pregnant, personally. I did it six times, but I didn't think it fit the bill here. And the chamber was important so Ron could mimic parseltongue and get some old fangs? To me, that's a real waste of potential there.

The let down, after such a huge build up was appalling. If we hadn't had the huge build up, I'd say, yes, Ginny surviving was enough. But under the circumstances, I can't say that Even at the critical moment for Harry, I wish he could have thought of her love, her loyalty, their potential future, or even her sense of humor instead of how she kisses. He looked like all he cared about was a snog, not Ginny as a whole person, with thoughts and feelings.

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Elanor - Aug 22, 2007 10:57 pm (#2086 of 2152)

Very good points everybody, especially about Ginny being described as powerful being "a backdoor way of telling us that Molly is an awesome witch. (The reverse of: If want to know what a girl will be like when she grown up look at her mother.) " (Xenophilius).

Legolas, I don't her age is significant: she is Luna's age (and Luna spent even less time at Hogwarts than she did) and Luna's role in Harry's quest is decisive, not Ginny's.

Something also struck me yesterday: we are told about Tonks and Snape's Patronus changing because they were in love (at least for Tonks) and being a sort of "reflection" of the love of their lives (even Hermione's otter can be seen as a nod towards Ron and Ottery StCatchpole) but Harry's post HBP Patronus doesn't change one iota, it is still connected to his father. It is also his parents, and the ones he considered as parents, that give him the courage to walk into the forest in the end, not Ginny. So I guess that what we miss in the story is how what is but only still a crush becomes true love.

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Sunny Baudelaire - Aug 23, 2007 4:15 pm (#2087 of 2152)

When Harry asked Lupin why a paronus would change his answer was: "Sometimes... a great shock...an emotional upheaval." Tonks and Snapes patronus didn't change because they were in love, it changed because the objects of their affection either denied they loved them or didn't love them back.

Elanor, based on your theory - why is Ron's patronus a dog? Is it because Hermione resembles one? (Just kidding.)

As far as Ginny's role in Harry's quest to destroy Voldemort, Ginny played the biggest role of all. She was the reason the first Horcrux was destroyed and this gave Dumbledore the evidence that Voldy had not only made a Horcrux but made more than one.

This contributed more to the defeat of Voldmort than Luna knowing the location of the Ravenclaw common room, and answering the password question correctly (although those were both extremely impressive feats). And I'd like to add that the only reason she did that in the first place was because Ginny asked her to.

As far as Ginny's power is concerned...she was possessed by Voldemort (at the age of 11 no less) and lived to tell the tale. Only one other person has done that, and his name would be Harry Potter.

Harry was certainly crushing on Ginny during Half-Blood Prince, but as soon as he described Ginny as his "best source of comfort", it was clear that his feelings had deepened way beyond "crush." And if you missed that hint, all the time Harry spent staring at her dot on the Maurauders Map, or worrying about her safety made it clear to me he was in love.

We don't know that Luna wasn't 17. Hermione turned 17 in September of her 6th year, maybe Luna also has a fall birthday. She has never been wished Happy Birthday on Jo's site, so we don't know.

McGonagall announced that "if you are of age, you may stay", and Rowling specifically mentioned that Colin was under age and snuck back, so that tells me that if Luna was under age and snuck back, it would have been specifically mentioned.

Ginny was originally prevented from fighting by the people who love her: her parents, her siblings, and Harry. The only person who loves Luna (her father) was no where near Hogwarts.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 24, 2007 6:34 am (#2088 of 2152)

That's all well and good, but then why did Jo tell us Ginny was a powerful wtich and we'd see more evidence of that? I didn't see it.

If Harry was in love, I wish he'd thought more about his possible future with Ginny, and what her love, sense of humor and loyalty meant to him, instead of simply remembering what it felt like to kiss her and the afternoons they'd spent off page snogging. Most teenage boys are more comfortable when they are getting some snogging action, and to us older readers, and some of us are reasonably close to Jo's age, the idea of a comfort woman means something quite different than it does to the younger readers, and it's not a good thing.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 24, 2007 9:12 am (#2089 of 2152)

Sorry, how was Harry supposed to think about his possible future with Ginny? I don't think he thought he had any future at all to be thinking of. There is a line (paraphrased): Ginny's future was open, he (Harry) could see nothing, but Voldemort ahead.

I disagree that Ginny wasn't as powerful as prophesied. She was 16 and already she could conjure a Patronus (so did Luna, you'll say), she duelled with DEs in HBP after Neville was blasted out of the way, she was skillful enough to duel Bellatrix and not die (with Hermione and Luna) the feat neither Sirius nor Tonks was able to accomplish.

However, the greatest thing about Ginny, IMO, is her internal strengh. That she is able to accept difficult decissions and that she will stand strong and not be destroyed by grief and bitterness.

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Chemyst - Aug 24, 2007 11:09 am (#2090 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
However, the greatest thing about Ginny, IMO, is her internal strengh. - Joanna Lupin

Are you familiar with the ancient tree analogy? The old tree's strength is steadfast and obdurate; that it has weathered many storms and is not shaken by the wind. The sapling's strength is tensile flexibility; that it can bend in the wind and not splinter.

The attributes of Ginny's strengths were age appropriate, but comments such as this one from the March 4, 2004 Book Day Chat —

Field: Do you plan for Ginny to take on a major character role in the next two books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful personality.
certainly led us to believe she had more "pow" in her power.

It would have been nice and symmetrical to have Harry vanquish Voldemort and have Ginny take out Bellatrix, but in the end, her mommy did it for her.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 24, 2007 11:33 am (#2091 of 2152)

I don't think Ginny needed to be super magically powerful to be a strong character. What she needed was her own plot point, some moment where she herself would be pivotal -- not just be treated as the object that inspired others to do all the important work. It probably would have been better if it didn't involve felling the most dangerous Death Eaters with mega-spells. That sort of thing always comes off contrived, especially when its the Hero's Girlfriend who is second best to the Hero taking out the Evil Bad Girl who is second best to the Evil Boss Guy. Ginny needed her own thing. What, I don't know. A brilliant idea, or knowledge only she could provide, or something.

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Elanor - Aug 24, 2007 12:05 pm (#2092 of 2152)

About Ginny and Luna's age, when I talked about it in my previous post it was thinking of the "magical education" Legolas had just mentioned (post #2082 "She had less magical education than anyone else at school"). Even if Luna is a few months older than Ginny (which we don't know) they still were in the same year so their magical education was the same.

I am struck by how, though they are in the same year, Luna is portrayed more mature than Ginny in the series (or at least it is the impression I have when reading it). In OotP already, during the MoM battle, it is Ginny who is the "little girl" Bellatrix wants to torture. In the DH, she is still considered as a little girl by all her family as Mrs Brisbee wrote in a previous post, when it seems natural that Luna, who is at the most a few months older, fights.

As for Luna's role, there are many times in the DH, and not only when she leads Harry to the Ravenclaw tower, when seeing or hearing her gives Harry (and others, like Ollivander) the strength he needs. I particularly like the moment when Harry, Ron and Hermione, on their way to the Shrieking Shack are stopped by Dementors and Luna encourages him.

I agree that Ginny needed "her own thing" Mrs Brisbee, or more tiny details that would have shown she was the one Harry needed to think of for going on. Yet, for example, when Harry, Ron and Hermione are attacked by Dementors (again) as they arrived in Hogsmeade: "it was of Ron and Hermione that [Harry] thought as he whispered, "Expecto patronum"" (p.556, Sch.). The three of them were in danger, which may explain it, but still Ginny being Harry's happy memory could have stressed her importance even if she wasn't there.

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Luna Logic - Aug 24, 2007 12:15 pm (#2093 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Aug 24, 2007 12:19 pm
Mrs Brisbee : Ginny needed her own thing. What, I don't know. A brilliant idea, or knowledge only she could provide, or something.
The story of the Grey Lady , and the way Harry associated things to find that the Horcrux was the tiara, and where it was, were the weakest points of the book IMO. Ginny could have done a part there, giving Harry some last clue, or helping him to associate clues, while they would be alone together in the RoR...
But, symbolically speaking, Luna had to be the one who guided Harry in the Ravenclaw task. I think there the symbolic part has taken too much over the plot and characters part, making the actions about the last Horcruxes quite artificial.
Or, Ginny could have help to destroy the Cup, because she was linked to the Chamber and the Basilick, and could have done a symbolic act to "close" her experience there... But, in the symbolic line chosen by JKR, it seems that the Horcruxes quest had to be only the matter of the Trio.
But Neville destroyed the last Horcruxe. So ?
Another thing related to Ginny, the sword (by her action in the director's office.) That was perhaps in Jo Rowling's mind, Ginny's moment? But I agree, another moment, later in the book, would have been neccesary to put a "finishing touch" to Ginny's character.

edited to add: cross posted with Elanor. While writing, I was asking myself what would Elanor or others "alchemists" ( ) would thing of the symbolical part perhaps been too artificial in some parts of chapter 29 - 30 - 31 - 32 ?

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Elanor - Aug 24, 2007 12:44 pm (#2094 of 2152)

I didn't post about it here as this is not the alchemy thread but I do agree with you Luna Logic about the symbolic importance of Luna and some other characters. We've often talked about it on the alchemy thread (in this pots #1883 about the DH for example).

There we said (in short) that the characters who matter for Harry's "quest" are the ones bound to the Mercury principle (also called moon, silver, Luna, lily, or everything white or water bound), that is Lily, Hermione Granger (Hg=mercury), Luna, and the Slytherins, especially Draco (white-blond hair, etc) and Snape (head of Slytherin, former Potions Master, etc).

Ginny is bound to fire (her hair are like flame, she has "blazing" looks) and her name's anagram (Ginevra) is "vinegar", a "cooking" of the Philosopher's Stone reference. Her symbolic role is to "keep the fire burning" (as the other Weasleys do also) in the "oven" in which Harry/the symbolic Stone is created, not to guide him or provide crucial knowledge/tools as the Mercury related characters do. (All of this IMO of course )

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Luna Logic - Aug 24, 2007 2:13 pm (#2095 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Thanks for your IYO summary, Elanor !
I will take again Mrs Brisbee proposition: Ginny needed her own thing. What, I don't know. A brilliant idea, or knowledge only she could provide, or something.
Now, if we follow the symbolic or alchemical line, Ginny would had had to play a "fire part" in the end of Book seven - thus her part could still be symbolically connected with the rest of the books.
The (my!) question is now: how could Ginny, somewhere during chapters 28 to 33, play that "fire part", in a manner which could be have been also useful for the plot, or interesting, or interesting for the character's evolution? (Or how has she done that, maybe?)

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megfox* - Aug 24, 2007 2:17 pm (#2096 of 2152)

In terms of Ginny being seen still as a "little girl" even at the end of the series, remember that she is the baby of the family. Older siblings and their friends often have a hard time recognizing that the youngest sibling in a family has grown up (I know, my "little" sister is married and almost has her DVM, and I still have a hard time seeing her as any older than about 15). She has spent all of her life being looked at as the little sister of Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George and Ron. And to top it off, she's the only girl. She may always be seen as being "younger" or "littler" than she really is.

As a corollary to this, Luna, being an only child, will often been seen as being more mature for her age. When I taught Psychology, I had a student who was interested in birth order and did her Senior Project on it. I remember her talking about only children and that they often take on the characteristics of oldest children. Also, they normally spend proportionally more time in contact with adults than with other children, since they have no siblings, and this also influences them to behave more adult-like. So to compare Ginny and Luna is really comparing apples and oranges in terms of their behavior (in light of the idea of birth order, etc).

I also really like Elanor's idea of Ginny being there to "keep the fire burning". The symbolic red hair, kissing like firewhiskey, and her fiery temper (which I believe makes her very adept at hexing whoever it is that raises that temper) are good examples. I think that all the times we are shown Harry thinking of her during his "exile", she is giving him some kind of strength to carry on. That's what I thought when I read about him watching her dot on the Marauder's Map, that it was another way for him to refuel. He knows that he needs to be the one to defeat Voldemort, and he isn't doing it really to save his own hide - he is fighting for all wizards and Muggles. Think of all the guilt he feels - he knows that if he wasn't connected to the Weasleys, they might not be in as much danger as they are, for example. Concentrating on Ginny is helping him get through all that. It is the one thing that he is really doing for himself (okay, and maybe avenging his parents, too).

Ginny and Harry remind me very much of teenagers in love. A lot of it is kissing and jealousy. That is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is a very realistic portrayal - Harry doesn't really picture his future with her, except to contemplate what it would be like if she married someone else. But I don't necessarily believe that he was thinking that she was going to marry him. Like someone else mentioned (I forget who, I'm sorry!), Harry thought that his future only held the fight to defeat Voldemort. He was trying very hard to suppress those feelings about Ginny, although not entirely successfully, which was a very adult thing to do. I liked the idea of what she gave him for a birthday present - I know I am a hopeless romantic, but really, she knew that there was a chance he wouldn't be that close to her for a long time, and it really was the only thing that she could give him that no one else could. I don't think it was shallow for Harry to remember that particular part of her - don't you remember what it was like the first time you were in love? I think the kissing was a tangible way for Harry to remember her.

I love Ginny as a character. I love what she symbolizes for Harry - a family, normalcy, something to look on fondly in a way that he couldn't with Ron and Hermione. I love that she tried to carry on the resistance in his name at Hogwarts. While in retrospect I am saddened that we didn't to see more of her role and what she was doing while Harry was gone, we have to remember that Jo very seldomly wrote any of the chapters in any pov other than Harry's, and to know what was going on at Hogwarts in more detail would have taken another point of view (I think 3rd person omniscient?). (I have no idea if that last sentence makes sense, but I can't figure out how to say it differently!) I think that her tenacity and her eagerness to fight, to help her family, and to put her life in danger when other witches and wizards who were her age (and older) chose not to shows that she is a very strong person.

Edited for a grammar and spelling error, and to add: I think this is the longest thing I have ever posted! I didn't realize how strongly I felt about Ginny!!

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Luna Logic - Aug 24, 2007 2:41 pm (#2097 of 2152)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Aug 24, 2007 2:46 pm
A very good post, Megfox, I agree with every idea and word of it. The kissing, and the attempts of Harry to suppress his feelings, and the teenagers in love - a real love but a teenagers' love - And Harry watching Ginny's dot on the Marauder's Map - the most moving scene in the book for me . It was his treasure, this map, this love, it was his light glowing in the dark of his erratic ad seemly hopeless quest when camping in the woods with no clues, and feeling he was failing in his quest as a leader, and putting his friends in danger.
And the fact that "Jo very seldomly wrote any of the chapters in any pov other than Harry's" (pov is point of view, I suppose !) is important: Harry has some (!) difficulties to express his sentiments, as it was showed in Book 6. Thus, we have the dot, and the remembrance of the kissing at a moment which for Harry was perhaps very "low", very "cold", on the end of his journey.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 24, 2007 9:54 pm (#2098 of 2152)

I don't care what special things people think Ginny did over the course of the series. Jo said Ginny was a powerful witch and we'd see more examples of that when she did her Leaky/Mugglenet interview. (Yes, I'm paraphrasing. I admit it.) She said Ginny was Harry's equal, and Ginny did nothing that lived up to the expectations Jo herself set up. Ginny kissed like firewhiskey, and waited for Harry to come back and get her pregnant. End of story. She had not one moment where she did something important on her own that proved what a gifted and worthy witch she was.

If Harry had ever thought of ANYTHING else but kissing her, it would have been better, but he doesn't do that. There's no emotional or mental intimacy, only physical intimacy. He did not love her. He desired her, but there is more to love than that. People who love each other talk to each other about what matters to them, respect each other (they don't ignore beseeching looks...that really made Ginny look pathetic- like she was waiting for her master to grant her a favor! and comfort each other. They don't think, "Oh, well, I'll have years to do that." They're there for each other. As I saw it Harry never cared about what Ginny wanted, or needed, or felt.

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Jenniffler - Aug 24, 2007 11:18 pm (#2099 of 2152)

Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Die Zimtzicke, if I may ask, What is wrong with kissing like firewhiskey? There are few moments in real life as bewilderingly magical as a good kiss.

We're not talking about a make-out session here. We're talking about to people restraining themselves from emotional and mental intimacy to protect each other. That's why Ron is so hard on Harry about The Birthday Kiss.(Which, by the way, is easy on a teenager's budget.) Harry was thinking about something besides her kiss, her personal safety, her continued breathing.

I always thought Ginny's power to brand the memory of a kiss into Harry's memory was a very special thing. I don't discount the physical alone, as actions are more susinct than pondering endlessly over one's feelings(Ginny learned that when she was eleven.)

What other good thought was Harry supposed to think about while being slaughtered, a Bat-Bogey Hex? Her seeker skills?

...and waited for Harry to come back and get her pregnant. End of story.

Yeah, because that's not how any other fairy tale romance story ends. I agree a little more depth in the epilogue would have set me up for a better counter-argument on this one. I will say that many children is rare in the wizarding world and there does seem to be a trend toward having babies in the Weasley households. I can only think of a few siblings (plural, 3 or more)that are Harry's school mates. Whether Ginny really was waiting to be Mum Potter or not is irrelevant to her character in DH. I do think her really powerful witch status JKR mentioned got lost in the teenage longing of our protagonist, but because we don't have a detailed description of her deeds, who is to say?

Oh, and I was sure her patronus was the silver doe if it wasn't Snape's, despite the OotP movie horse patronus. The whole thing would have been breathtaking if it were so.

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megfox* - Aug 25, 2007 5:45 am (#2100 of 2152)

Die Z, I think you missed my point that they are teenagers. Adults in love do those things that you described. Teenagers don't. And it doesn't matter how adult or mature they have to act for the sake of beating Voldemort. And I agree with Jenniffler that the kiss was the symbol of what he felt for Ginny;

"Harry was thinking about something besides her kiss, her personal safety, her continued breathing." Jenniffler

Ginny also symbolizes everyone that he needs to protect by defeating Voldemort.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 25, 2007 6:06 am (#2101 of 2152)
I agree with little pieces of what most people have said. It was a big disappointment for me that Ginny's role was so obscure in DH. We are told enough to know that she continued fighting back at Hogwarts after Harry disappeared, but we really don't see any examples. And of course we see her come back to fight, even though she is underage. We have to read a lot into very little information to sustain the idea that she is a powerful witch in her own right.

The whole role of women in the WW is probably the thing I like least about this series. There MUST be witches somewhere who have children and do something outside the home. I mean, for goodness' sake, if I could wave a wand and clean the house or fold the clothes, I would have lots more free time. And that's not even factoring in the house elf. ; ) But, other than Hermione at the end, we never see that in action. (Well, we saw Tonks come back to do her job at the end, and she has been ripped apart elsewhere on the forum for not staying home!) So I can see why Die Z feels as though she just finished school and waited around to start producing the next generation -- that's what we're told. OK, she played Quiddich for a few years. Woo-hoo. But all of this is not the story JKR wanted to tell.

About kissing like firewhiskey...I also agree that we can't expect too much of a teenaged love affair. We know from the epilogue that it grew into something more, but we are seeing them at a time when they don't HAVE time to stop and share. They do support each other...Harry by trying to keep his distance to protect each other, and Ginny by understanding. But I'd rather his last memory be a good kiss than "gee, I wish I had time to let Ginny show me how to cast that bat-bogey hex again."

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megfox* - Aug 25, 2007 6:13 am (#2102 of 2152)

I think that playing Quidditch for a professional league team probably qualifies for more than a "Woo-hoo"! She is a professional athelete, and that's a pretty big deal, in my eyes. I would hardly qualify that as "waiting around to become impregnated."

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NFla Barbara - Aug 25, 2007 7:14 am (#2103 of 2152)

You're right, of course, megfox. : ) I would not mess with her. Ginny, if you're watching, please don't hex me.

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Wanda - Aug 25, 2007 12:27 pm (#2104 of 2152)

Editor
megfox*, I agree 100 percent with absolutely everything you've said about Ginny. Thank you for putting into words so eloquently what I did not. If you've ever been madly in love as a teenager then Harry and Ginny's love for each other seems SO real.

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Remi - Aug 25, 2007 1:24 pm (#2105 of 2152)

Dumbledore's woman through and through
FYI - Here's the quote from the Mugglenet interview:

"The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again."

I'm okay with Harry's feelings for Ginny, his remembering her firewhiskey-kisses, and her occasional lapses into immature-teenage behavior. But I've said it before, I am hugely disappointed that Ginny didn't have her "moment of glory" in DH. Yeah it would've been great if she had killed Bellatrix - WAHOO! If she had given Harry some info about Voldemort that only she could've known from being possessed by him in Book 2. But I still see her as gutsy, strong, and tender, and someone who could be Harry's equal. I just wish we had seen more of her in DH.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 27, 2007 3:06 pm (#2106 of 2152)

I guess I just do not think teenage love is real enough in this case to last nineteen years without my being able to see how it evolved.

I also don't know if Ginny also symbolizes everyone that Harry needs to protect by defeating Voldemort. Ginny didn't really do anything to help him win. He won in the end because he had a bigger wand than Voldemort. (Take that as you will, and I know someone will.)I don't think we got as good of a "love defeats evil" ending, as a lot of fans expected, because of the way the DH were thrown in. If Ginny had done something important that we could see in the last book, I would have appreciated her at least a bit more. But I still feel we were led to believe we'd get more than we got from Ginny. Being possessed by Voldemort, the biggest thing H/G had in common, got left by the wayside. Very few people thought the CoS incident would NOt matter in the end. If that's Jo's idea of a surprise ending, it wasn't very good as far as I'm concerned.

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Chemyst - Aug 27, 2007 8:54 pm (#2107 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
If that's Jo's idea of a surprise ending, it wasn't very good as far as I'm concerned.

Gee, Die, thanks to you I get to enjoy the ending twice; once each from two perspectives!

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 28, 2007 1:21 pm (#2108 of 2152)

Unless I'm reading it completely wrong, I found that last comment to be off topic and unnecessarily snarky. I guess it's true...opinions are like birthdays. The only time they matter is when they are yours.

Or did I miss the new part of the forum rules that state you can only post a post if you make sure the majority of the other posters agree with it first?

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Jenniffler - Aug 28, 2007 1:51 pm (#2109 of 2152)

Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Die, If I've read the entire books with two perspectives on Snape, Dumbledore and Horcrux Harry, I don't see why I can't do a read Pro-Ginny (not quite a perfect character) AND Anti-Ginny (a clearly shallow and untapped character potential.)

Agree? Who needs to have you agree with them? That would be someone else's problem, not yours. Like a boxing match, no opposition would make for a uneventful spectacle.

ROUND TWO!

ding!ding!

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Kip Carter - Aug 28, 2007 5:30 pm (#2110 of 2152)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
It's time for everyone to play nice. This is not a courtroom or a trial, but a Forum where opinions are shared. If you do not agree with someone's thoughts, let it be! I will not tolerate snarky comments PERIOD.

There better not be a ROUND TWO!

I will close this thread down if I do not see a change in attitude.

If I see a positive change, I will remove this post.

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Steve Newton - Aug 28, 2007 6:03 pm (#2111 of 2152)

Librarian
Wow, I think that this is the first time that I have ever read the word 'snarky' twice in the same day.

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Jenniffler - Aug 28, 2007 6:14 pm (#2112 of 2152)

Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Oops! irons hands and kicks bell under the couch.

Wrong analogy.

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Chemyst - Aug 28, 2007 6:49 pm (#2113 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I found that last comment to be off topic and unnecessarily snarky.

It wasn't intended as snarky (hence the little purple grinning guy).

How about this for a rephrase?
Die, your distinctive and often inimitable views frequently stretch my imagination, forcing me to see aspects of the books that I would never have considered on my own. I am discovering that these different viewpoints result in two very different methods of enjoying the same printed page. For instance, I can go all serious and analytical and get one set of insights, which are sort of "literary-erudite-entertainment" or I can approach it from a more "satirical-funk" perspective and enjoy it as something JKR just made up for fun.

The comment was more of a compliment than it apparently came across: I appreciate your posts here because they add a balance among what could too easily become a very one-sided fan club. In all sincerity, I find your posts add another dimension of pleasure to the Potterverse.

... 'nuf said?

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Eponine - Aug 28, 2007 6:54 pm (#2114 of 2152)

Well, I enjoyed Ginny in DH. I love her as a character, but I don't think I ever expected her to play a huge role in the final battle or even in the last book. Before DH came out, I figured the reason that Jo had H/G get together in HBP was because she wasn't going to be around much in DH, and she wanted them established as a couple before DH since they weren't going to have a chance to be around each other much in DH. And even though I love H/G together, I would NOT have wanted to see their relationship up close and personal. The books just don't support scenes like that. These books have never been about romance, and personally, (for the most part) I'm glad we didn't get it.

Ginny isn't perfect, but really none of the characters are. I wouldn't want them to be, because flawed characters are a lot more interesting.

And no offense to the people who dislike Ginny, but I get the feeling that even if she had done something spectacular in the final battle or at any point in the book, you would still have found fault with it and her.

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TomProffitt - Aug 28, 2007 7:37 pm (#2115 of 2152)

Bullheaded empiricist
I think part of the reason that it is hard to see Ginny as "a cut above" is that all of the major characters are "a cut above." The run of the mill average characters like Hannah Abbott, Dean Thomas, Seamus, and so on aren't running around with Harry.

How can anyone look spectacular when compared with Harry and Dumbledore?

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Wanda - Aug 29, 2007 2:22 am (#2116 of 2152)

Editor
Edited by Aug 29, 2007 2:22 am
I took Chemyst's post 2106 as a compliment to Die. Maybe we're all getting a bit over-involved.

I always found it difficult to understand why people didn't like Ginny (definitely a BIG fan of her's!) and always stoutly defended her. But recently, especially after keeping up with this thread everyday, I have had to admit that I now agree that it would have been nice to see a bit more evidence of her power and abilities.

So I have found it quite enlightening to have my view changed by others' opinions, even though I didn't really want it to change. That's what's so nice about being able to discuss this stuff openly with adults.

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legolas returns - Aug 29, 2007 10:53 am (#2117 of 2152)

Giving Harry a kiss to remember was not the only thing that she did in the book.

Ginnys role in this final book was to be a staunch member of Dumbledores Army. Carry on its fine work against the Carrows and Snape. She got caught by Snape trying to steal the sword. Although most people would see it as a hard punishment to be sent into the forest it was quite a lenient punishment in comparison to being tortured. Hagrid would have been very understanding if they told him that they were stealing something that Dumbledore had left Harry. He would have been understanding regardless because Snape gave her the punishment. She must have been causing a whole lot of trouble because she did not go back to school after the holidays. She would have been in danger. I think we are meant to read between the lines here. I could be as wrong as Humphrey Belcher .

Final battle

Ok both her and Luna are the youngest two fighters that survive. We see Giny comforting and helping the injured as well as fighting. The three way fight against Bellatrix given that this is only the second time (They also had a Felix Felicis protected battle so possibly three fights) that Luna/Ginny/Hermione have been in a real combat situation to survive fighting Bellatrix is not so bad. (Hermione I have always thought of as incredibly clever but not so good in a real pressure situation but thats for another thread) Bellatrix managed to stop an Auror and kill Sirius so she was obviously very skilled. The three girls would not have been trying to kill Bellatrix but to disable her.

Mrs Weasley managed to kill Bellatrix and people have said look at the mother to find out about the daughter. If you think back to OOP Gideon and Fabian were killed by something like five death eaters after a long battle. I think from this we are meant to take it that the family as a whole is powerfull and skilled.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 29, 2007 2:16 pm (#2118 of 2152)

I don't think it was a hard punishment to be sent into the forest -- it was Snape's way of not punishing her at all, while appearing to do something severe.

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legolas returns - Aug 29, 2007 2:46 pm (#2119 of 2152)

Thats what I was meaning.

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 29, 2007 2:49 pm (#2120 of 2152)

I agree Barbara, that particular scene is much more about Snape than anyone else.

@ the rest Ginny did: I'm not denying that she was unhelpful. Everyone, who fought Voldemort was a help. But she played no real role in the plot. That's what I found disappointing. With the exception of Chamber of Secrets, you actually could cut her from every book, and it wouldn't change anything.

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Xenophilius - Aug 29, 2007 3:24 pm (#2121 of 2152)

Neville Longbottom - you actually could cut her from every book, and it wouldn't change anything.

I think I need to disagree with this statement. I will agree that her role could have been filled by another character. Harry's feelings/actions toward Ginny gives us a barometer of Harry's emotional growth. His feelings are much more mature than the crush he had on Cho. JKR often gives us then/now situations to give us a way to measure Harry. (Compare the Hogwart's Express scenes at the beginning of Oop vs. HBP.) In that way she plays a significant role.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 29, 2007 4:53 pm (#2122 of 2152)

Xenophilius, good point; there is other evidence of his maturing, of course, but this illustrates it in a way his other relationships do not.

I think we would have needed some character first, to hint that Harry would have a life after Hogwarts and a family of his own, and second, to make that come true. So poor Ginny ends up being mostly important for that, but at least she has enough verve and skill that she is not just window-dressing. Don't get me wrong -- I am still disappointed in her role -- but I don't think the story would have been the same if she was cut out completely.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 30, 2007 6:29 pm (#2123 of 2152)

I'm not denying Ginny was helpful, either, but she had nothing of her own. She jumpstarted the DA, with Neville and Luna. She tried to steal the sword, with Neville and Luna. She fought Bella, again with others. I wish something relating to her experience in the chamber could have proved useful, or that she could have found or destroyed a horcrux to pay Voldemort back in her own way for what he did to her. But she had no big moment, like Neville killing Nagini, or Luna stunning Alecto, or Hermione pulling off a big escape.

Coming after Jo said she wass a powerful witch and that we'd see evidence of that again, and that she was Harry's equal, nothing she did stands out to me.

I don't know if Harry's feeling for Ginny are better as to maturity level than his feelings for Cho. He still doesn't talk to her about anything important, he doesn't want to deal with her feelings, and he thinks about physical things, like the way she kisses. He doesn' think about her love, or her loyalty, or her sense of humor, or what she might be feeling. It's still all about him, just like it was with Cho.

Example: She gets to have a normal life and I don't...whine, whine, whine.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 7:24 am (#2124 of 2152)

I noticed a curious thing about Ginny, and I have a new theory - Ginny is a metamorphagus! In COS, chapter 'The Burrow', Ginny is described as having bright green eyes!

Ah, I can't wait for a revised edition of the series!

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 8, 2007 9:42 am (#2125 of 2152)

Not in my book. There she has light brown eyes.

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Eponine - Sep 8, 2007 11:15 am (#2126 of 2152)

I know that in the CoS audiobook I have, it says green eyes. I'm not sure if Jo changed her mind or if a mistake was made, but I do believe Ginny is meant to have brown eyes, not green.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 8, 2007 11:42 am (#2127 of 2152)

Funny, I was refering to audiobook read by Jim Dale. Must be mistake then, I've got to check the book!

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Eponine - Sep 8, 2007 12:12 pm (#2128 of 2152)

That's what audiobook I was referring to as well. I always thought that was strange.

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 8, 2007 10:57 pm (#2129 of 2152)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I noticed a curious thing about Ginny, and I have a new theory - Ginny is a metamorphagus! Joanna

In DH it says that baby Teddy's hair changed color within a day of birth. Lupin was afraid Teddy would be completely blond before he got back. Later it says Tonks was changing within hours of birth.

I think if Ginny were a metamorphagus we would have noticed.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 9, 2007 3:57 am (#2130 of 2152)

Yeah, I was kind of sarcastic, you know?

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 10, 2007 2:05 am (#2131 of 2152)

I just reread the passage to be sure, and in my book Ginny is definitely said to have brown eyes not green, even in that scene. I suppose Jim Dale made a mistake.

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 10, 2007 11:46 am (#2132 of 2152)

Also, in DH Harry is looking at Molly and thinks her brown eyes are just like Ginny's.

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 20, 2007 6:10 am (#2133 of 2152)

I was thinking about Ginny, and the grand theme of Death that runs through the series, and I think her greatest character moment came in OotP.

Arthur Weasley has been grievously wounded by Nagini, and Ginny and her brothers have Portkeyed to Grimmauld Place. They (understandably) all want to rush to the hospital, as their father might die. Sirius gets into an argument with them, trying to tell them that there are some things worth dying for and that their father won't appreciating them messing up the work he was doing. While Fred and George argue, Ginny decides the matter by going to sit and wait. That took tremendous courage because that may have been her last chance to see her father. Not only does she love her father, but she shows that she respects him and the things he holds important. We don't see that respect in other examples of characters acting out of love, like young Snape who cares about Lily but not the values or people she holds dear, or Xenophilius Lovegood who tries to save his daughter by betraying her friends. I have to admire Ginny for understanding this at such a young age.

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 20, 2007 8:08 am (#2134 of 2152)

Well, Ginny turns out to be VERY good at sitting and waiting.

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 20, 2007 8:42 am (#2135 of 2152)

LOL, well, I know you don't like Ginny whereas I do, but I think we are in agreement that Ginny needed some pivotal plot moment in the final book. She did sort of fizzle as a character.

But, in this case sitting and waiting was the right action, and her brothers followed her lead. I'm interested in the different ways that the characters face the deaths of loved ones. In this regard, Ginny seems more mature than most of the other characters.

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Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2007 10:29 am (#2136 of 2152)

Librarian
What is needed is the story of year 7 at Hogwarts. This would show Ginny showing some leadership and derring-do. It would also allow Neville his shot in the limelight. Alas, it doesn't seem as if this is to be.

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 20, 2007 12:18 pm (#2137 of 2152)

Thank you, Mrs. Brisbee. That was very kind. Yes, we do have common ground as to Ginny's role in book seven.

I always thought the incident in the CoS would come back up. Something to do with that would have been perfect. I didn't think it would be reduced to Ron mimicking parseltongue and collecting some old fangs. I was horribly disappointed there. I really thought something Ginny saw, did or remmbered was going to matter.

Neville gets to destroy a horcrux, Ron learns what matters in life, Hermione keeps everyone on task, Cho comes back to Hogwarts to fight, Fleur turns out to be all right in many ways, Luna can see Harry through polyjuice and stuns Alecto, but what did Ginny have for herself? She kisses Harry, does some stuff along with other people, and later looks beseechingly at him. (I just hate that workd okay?) A pivotal moment WAS needed.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 21, 2007 10:20 am (#2138 of 2152)


What is needed is the story of year 7 at Hogwarts. This would show Ginny showing some leadership and derring-do. It would also allow Neville his shot in the limelight. Alas, it doesn't seem as if this is to be.


The difference is, that even without the story of yoear seven in Hogwarts, Neville *got* his scene in the limelight. He might not had all that much screentime, but his screentime mattered in a way Ginny's simply didn't.

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Orion - Sep 22, 2007 2:16 pm (#2139 of 2152)

In marrying Ginny, Harry comes as close as possible to marrying Ron, doesn't he?

IMHO, JKR had spent all kinds of girls she could imagine on Hermione, Cho, Fleur, Angelina and Luna and couldn't knock up one more on Ginny, and that's why Ginny is so boring. She is even more boring than Tonks, and that's saying something.

People seem to want her to be a powerful witch because they think she has to be a match for Harry, but why does she have to? Every person has an intrinsic value, and many people would be hard pressed to give a specific reason why they fell in love with their partner. It just happened. It is only weird that all over literature, characters are shown to fall in love with women, and you almost always can relate to that and understand it some way, and here you can't. Maybe JKR was embarrassed about Harry falling in love? It was much more plausible with Cho, but then she wasn't the girl he would marry. Maybe Harry is JKR's dream guy and so she was constricted in describing his future wife? (Don't kill me!)

Maybe the very boring actress, who is not very good at acting and seems to have only one facial expression, is a reason why so many people don't like Ginny. (I would be mortified if she read this and hope she never will.) But the two girls who play Ginny and Lily are looking very similar, so the casting director maybe wanted to hint that Harry is the type who wants to marry the spitting image of his mother.

This thread is so very long, and I only read the last few hundred posts, so I want to apologize in advance for probably repeating old stuff.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 22, 2007 3:47 pm (#2140 of 2152)

For me, Bonnie Wright is Ginny Weasley. I have more trouble accepting a fortyish Lily Potter when she dies at 21.

I actually have issues with the Ginny Weasley-Lily Evans analogy. They are both lovely, charming redheads who will never go over to the dark side, but the similarities end there, in my opinion. Lily seems to be a gentle soul though she can stand up for her beliefs and for justice. Ginny on the other hand has many elements of Fred and George in her. There is a harshness in her (and I don't mean it as an insult as I really like this character) which I do not find in Lily. If young Severus had called her a Mudblood he'd have gotten a Bat-Bogey hex on him before James had turned him right side up ... then again, I don't see Ginny as having the ability to look beyond young Snape's darkness to befriend him.

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NFla Barbara - Sep 22, 2007 4:17 pm (#2141 of 2152)

Well, we see Ginny pretty young. She calls Luna "Looney" the first time we see Luna, but she grows out of that. If Lily seems to be more the type who would befriend someone unpopular, maybe that's because that's one of the handful of things we know about her. I agree that Ginny has a little of Fred and George in her, though! I was just re-reading the Quiddich scene in HBP where Zacharias Smith was announcing the game and giving Gryffindor a hard time, and at the end of the game she flies straight into the tower where he was sitting. "Sorry," she says, "forgot to brake." Funny.

Lily was one of two; Ginny was the last of six. I think that alone explains a little of Ginny's comparative feistiness (I prefer that to harshness).

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PeskyPixie - Sep 22, 2007 7:43 pm (#2142 of 2152)

Yes, we see Ginny pretty young, but we get a glimpse of Lily at a slightly younger age. Given the circumstances under which she first meets Severus and the rivalry between he and her sister, I think she does have a kindness which many children her age (including Ginny) lack. This is not a criticism of Ginny (she is quite normal for her age, and as you mentioned, she does grow out of it) but rather a difference from Lily.

"Feisty" is just the word I was searching for! Thanks. And she's the last of seven, not six Sad Fred still counts.

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Choices - Sep 23, 2007 10:52 am (#2143 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Lily might have been a tad more like Ginny had she been raised in an all wizard home with Fred and George instead of a Muggle home with Petunia.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2007 11:03 am (#2144 of 2152)

That's a very interesting point, Choices.

You know, I think I agree with that. Do you think Lily's open-mindedness towards a poor, scruffy, potentially dark kid like Severus would have been influenced had she been raised in a completely magical environment?

I still feel that Ginny would not have made friends with the child Snape (prior to attending Hogwarts). Is this because, as a good young witch, she has been conditioned by her environment to not associate with kids like Snape?

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Chemyst - Sep 23, 2007 11:07 am (#2145 of 2152)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
LOL Choices, and now I wonder what Ginny may have been like if Percy were her only sibling.
(I suddenly want ot read a fan fic involving a time-turner and a Percy/Petunia 'ship.)

Edit to answer Pesky Pixie ~
I'm not sure; a lot would depend upon when Snape became 'dark.' Young Ginny certainly would not have looked down on Young Snape because of his parents' financial status. Ginny (who would grow to master the bat-bogey hex against those who ticked her off,) may even have felt dropping a tree branch in response to an insult was funny if no one was hurt. If they met before Snape turned dark and bitter, why shouldn't she have been friendly?

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Choices - Sep 23, 2007 11:09 am (#2146 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do agree. I think Lily was more open to Severus because she had not learned the prejudices that a child from a magical family might have been taught/learned.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2007 12:03 pm (#2147 of 2152)

Chemyst, you are right. Ginny would have been able to see the humour where Lily perhaps did not (I didn't get the feeling that any serious damage was done to Tuney, but the whole situation between Severus and Petunia, and discovering that she herself was probably magical was agitating Lily).

Yet, I have a feeling that had Ginny and young Severus (both with knowledge of the magical world) met prior to attending Hogwarts, talk of school Houses would eventually arise. Would young Ginny be able to maintain a friendship with a Slytherin hopeful?

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NFla Barbara - Sep 23, 2007 2:02 pm (#2148 of 2152)

Thank you, Pixie! I knew six was wrong, but when I counted I left out Percy. (I would never leave out Fred. I love Fred.) Chalk it up to a senior moment.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 10:50 am (#2149 of 2152)

I doubt it's a 'senior moment' ... Percy is quite forgettable.

I still haven't forgiven him, but I'm trying!

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jose043 - Aug 11, 2009 4:38 am (#2150 of 2152)

Happy birthday Ginny Weasley/Potter, hope you have a wonderful day and many more to come.

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Choices - Aug 11, 2009 7:58 am (#2151 of 2152)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ginny, wonderful Birthday wishes for you. Have a great day and give Harry and the kids a big hug from me. :-)

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Hoot Owl - Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am (#2152 of 2152)

Teacher
Happy Birthday, Mrs. Potter. By the way whatever happened to Arnold?

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