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Pansy Parkinson

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:21 am

Pansy Parkinson

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011.- Elanor

Sarah Shrub - Feb 22, 2004 4:16 am
Edited by Kip Carter Mar 20, 2006 1:44 pm
We do not know much about her. She is in Slytherin and a kind of gang leader. Anyway, her name seem(to me)like a modern muggle name, and not like that typical "noble" names of the rest of the Slytherins. I come from Sweden, here family names ending with -son are common even for females but they have only been in use about 100 year. However her name is a somewhat dark name because it´is makes you think of a decease. (Or the muggle doctor, who first discribed that decease.) I just want to see some ideas.



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Last edited by Elanor on Sat May 07, 2011 10:51 am; edited 2 times in total
Elanor
Elanor
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Pansy Parkinson Empty Pansy Parkinson (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:25 am

firebird - Feb 22, 2004 5:42 am (#1 of 496)
I wonder why Slytherins are so 'unpleasant'-looking? Except for Draco, they seem quite monstrous in appearance. Pansy's face is like a pug's, Millicent is, in Harry's opinion, part hag, Flint is IHO part troll... Crabbe, Goyle, all their Quidditch players are modelled along the lines of Flint... Poor Slytherins! And they're all such morons - do you think it's maybe to do with the probable inbreeding of the pure-blood families?

I know this is about Pansy... She's probably pureblood. Only purebloods are supposed to be accepted into Slyth. And Draco would never go to a Ball with her if he thought otherwise!

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Madame Librarian - Feb 22, 2004 6:39 am (#2 of 496)

Not to apologize for the Slytherin gang, but remember that we see these people through Harry's eyes. From his very first encounter with Draco, Harry decided he didn't like the lot of them. I agree that they couldn't all be completely unattractive, so what in truth may be a sneering expression, a perpetual scowl, an intimidating glare from any one of them, could be interpreted by Harry as downright ugliness. The film cast, however, seems to be mostly unattractive, Draco being the exception. This would be a good question for JKR.

Ciao. Barb

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SarcasticGinny - Feb 22, 2004 7:55 am (#3 of 496)

Oddly, I thought Slytherin seeker Terrance Higgs was cute as a button in the first film with those huge blue eyes looking all scared when Harry nudges him off the snitch.

Anyhow, I am curious about Pansy too. Are she and Draco an "item"? She does openly adore him-she leads the Slytherins in singing the song Draco wrote, and she cried and went to see him in the hospital wing after the Buckbeak attack. Then they went together to the Yule Ball. Do you think that Draco went for her because she was a sure bet to say yes, or what?

Also I wonder if she knows the Malfoys and what her parents are like. So far, there is no DE named Parkinson...

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Arrows' Biggest Fan - Feb 22, 2004 11:31 am (#4 of 496)

Only purebloods are supposed to be accepted into Slyth.


I disagree. Salazar Slytherin did not like non-purebloods (halfbloods and Muggleborns). But the Sorting Hat was originally the property of Godric Gryffindor, as stated in one of its songs (can't remember which). I think that Gryffindor would have probably allowed anyone to be sorted into any house, including non-purebloods to Slytherin. An example is, of course, Tom Riddle.

On the other hand, I do agree that Pansy herself must be pureblood for Draco to take her to the Ball.

About ugly Slytherins, 1) we see them through Harry's eyes, and 2) we only see a small number actually described or named. The Quidditch team are all large and troll-like because Flint thinks that they are best that way.

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prof sprout - Feb 22, 2004 1:49 pm (#5 of 496)

I agree with Arrows

The Slytherins that We/Harry have seen have been ugly because of their attitudes. Its the whole inner beauty thing. Its kind of like the Veelas when they get upset at the Quidditch cup, they turn physically ugly even.

There is a thread that has a lot of the sorting hat opinions, I can't think of it right now. Salazar Slytherin's preferred type would be pure blooded, but it also looks at students attitudes. I highly doubt that the sorting hat would pick a muggle born for Slytherin though. I would feel bad for any Slytherins that were not pureblood though, remember CoS, one of the passwords to get into Slytherin was "pureblood"

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Bash - Feb 22, 2004 2:32 pm (#6 of 496)

The Slytherin physical attractiveness issue is contradictory. Those introduced in PS and CoS are meant to be characterised obviously as unpleasant, but Bellatrix is like Sirius of a higher species than muggles and many wizards so she is physically beautiful.

The Sorting Hat does pick less than pure bloods for Slytherin - Voldemort was a half-blood! Probably though it wouldn't pick mudbloods for Slytherin, even if they did match the other criteria.

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DayWalker - Feb 22, 2004 6:26 pm (#7 of 496)

Yeah and Harry was almost in Slytherin and he's half-blood

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Denise P. - Feb 22, 2004 10:06 pm (#8 of 496)

Ravenclaw Pony
This is a common misconception. The Sorting Hat told Harry he would do well in Slytherin and Harry interrupted the Hat. For all we know, it would have told him he would do well in Hufflepuff too.

We are seeing the Slytherin's through Harry's eyes but I doubt Pansy would be called "Pug faced" if she was remotely cute.

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Nathaniel Shafer - Feb 23, 2004 12:43 am (#9 of 496)

I disagree: In CoS Harry puts the sorting hat on again inside Dumbledore's office. At this point the hat repeats to Harry "you would have done well in Slytherin -" (Cos 12 Am. Ed.)

There is no sense for the hat to make a point of repeating this information if it isn't important that Harry could have gone in Slytherin.

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mischa fan - Feb 23, 2004 2:08 am (#10 of 496)

Easy being green, it is not
Once again in CoS Harry interrupted the hat. For all we know the hat was going to say, "...you would have done well in Slytherin but you are a Gryffindor."

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VeronikaG - Feb 23, 2004 2:23 am (#11 of 496)

I think pugs are cute.

The way I imagine Pansy to look, is that she has a sulking expression, that makes her puggish. In PS she is described as hard-faced, which make me believe she has a determined expression on her face, and it is easy to tell when she's annoyed with something. An expression like that isn't very cute on someone you dislike, as it adds to the feeling you have of them being unpleasant. Pansy was really rude to Parvati and Neville during the first flying lesson, and I think most Gryffindors took a disliking to her then.

Besides, not all the Slytherins look mean and nasty in the films. Their quidditch keeper, who's a girl in the film, looks like she's quite pretty. Their seeker is also kind of good looking. Millicent, Crabbe and Goyle are chapters of their own.

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Bash - Feb 23, 2004 3:27 am (#12 of 496)

The Slytherin Quidditch team had no token girls in CoS, though I suppose the lineup could have changed since PS.

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VeronikaG - Feb 23, 2004 3:55 am (#13 of 496)

The fact that there were two girls at the team in the first film actually contradicts the Cannon, where it says that no girls play for Slytherin.

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Essidji - Feb 23, 2004 7:01 am (#14 of 496)

Hem, excuse me but there's one thing I don't understand very well: you speak about half bloods and pure bloods (wondering if all the Slytherins should be pure blood). aywalker, you wrote that Harry is half blood... but both his parents are wizards, even if his mother was muggle-born. I thought being half-blood was when one of your parents is a wizard and the other is not...

Sorry, it may not be the right thread to ask the question in, but the matter was obsessing me...

Give me your lights!

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Kathryn Pottinger - Feb 23, 2004 7:18 am (#15 of 496)

Essidji, that has confused me loads too. I recall Harry being described as half blood because of his "common mudblood mother" or some similar phrase, but to me that should make him quarter blood. I guess that JKR doesn't really need to get too specific with the details, its just taken that Harry isn't pure blood as he has muggle grandparents. Harry is the equivalent to what a child of, say, Ron and Hermione's would be.

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Essidji - Feb 23, 2004 7:31 am (#16 of 496)

Thanks! ;-D

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Madame Librarian - Feb 23, 2004 9:21 am (#17 of 496)

It is indeed confusing, but the general term for any wizard with any Muggle blood going back x number of generations (it's never specified how far back) is referred to as half-blood (or worse). Muggle-born is the term for a wizard who has one or two parents that are Muggles.

Ciao. Barb

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prof sprout - Feb 23, 2004 10:03 am (#18 of 496)

Edited by Feb 23, 2004 9:04 am
I thought it was stated that any wizard with a muggle grandparent (Harry, Tonks, Riddle) Is considered a half blood. There was a thread awhile a go that addressed the issue of Harry's blood type I think it was called "Harry full-blood or half- blood", but since JKR said he was Half blood, I think the discussion ended after people gave up trying to argue against what JKR said.

Even though Harry is half blood if Harry married Ginny there kids would be full blood, because none of the grandparents were muggles. At least that is how I understood it. But if he married Hermione, their kids would be half bloods, and there grand kids would be full blood (assuming the kids married full blooded wizards, or a wizard born of muggle born parents, or mix like Harry. )

Whew that was a lot of thinking, luckily I'm at work and don't have to think much more today Smile

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Bash - Feb 23, 2004 1:07 pm (#19 of 496)

The blood issue is really very simple indeed. Harry is a HALF blood because his mother is a MUD blood - her blood is 100% human therefore 100% filthy. James is a PURE blood, his blood is 100% blue, as he is purely of the original wizard species. Mix the two: Harry has half his blood UNclean and half his blood CORRECT. The fact that Lily had magic powers does not improve her. It merely makes her more of a threat to the rightful heirs of the wizarding world. A robot with human intelligence would not be human, its sentience would merely make it MORE threatening to mankind, take the Matrix.

If HALF a wizard's ancestors arre human, then he/she is a HALF-blood. If threequaters of them are human, then he/she would be a quarter blood, but I don't think that wizards and humans have been mixing for so long as for developments such as threequarter bloods etc. I got the impression that it was a more recent development for the species to mingle - it was because the purebloods had begun to die out as Ron said in CoS. Add the fact that Wizards life spans are longer than Muggle life spans and it seems that the species have only been mixing for maybe two or three generations.

Getting back on topic, Pansy must surely be pureblood for Draco to take her to the Yule Ball?

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Sarah Shrub - Feb 23, 2004 2:11 pm (#20 of 496)

I agree that Pansy Parkinson behaves as a pureblood, and is treated as a pureblood. My question is does her name tell us something? If so,what?

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Luanee - Feb 23, 2004 5:52 pm (#21 of 496)

I always wonder why JKR gave so many students the same initials PP, such as Pansy Parkinson, Parvati Patil and Padma Patil... it had me all confused in the beginning...

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hopping hessian - Feb 23, 2004 6:45 pm (#22 of 496)

"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
I don't know about the UK, but in the US a "pansy" is someone who is a major whimp. Though, it's usually applied to men.

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Czarina - Feb 23, 2004 7:56 pm (#23 of 496)

The name Pansy sounds an awful lot like "flimsy" -- it's not a name that evokes a positive image, really. "Pansy" is an ultra-feminine name that brings to mind (usually) a girl that is VERY snotty and girlish. Hmmm -- anyone we know?

Pansies are nice flowers -- they are colourful and make beautiful gardens. Still, they are small, weak, puny and fragile. I don't think they last very long once cut. Pansy Parkinson, therefore, is probably not a strong young woman. She seems very shallow and buoyed up by her popularity. If the other Slytherin girls turned against her, she would be at a complete loss. She might also be known as "Draco's girl" (or something less appropriate for a G-rated audience) and is nothing without him, even among the Slytherins.

If her first name implies that she is a snotty, superficial weakling, her last name is probably Parkinson for two reasons: 1) the two names go together nicely (adds to the superficiality of her character) and 2) it evokes thoughts of a devastating brain disease, which is not a very nice thing to be associated with. Muggle-like last names (Potter, Black, Weasley, etc.) are not uncommon in Rowling's universe. Parkinson sounds more common than Malfoy, which might insinuate that Pansy is not a highly-regarded witch.

I think I've rambled on long enough. Any thoughts?

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Luanee - Feb 23, 2004 8:20 pm (#24 of 496)

I don't think JKR gave her the last name based on the Parkinson disease, that would be too mean.

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virgoddess1313 - Feb 23, 2004 9:15 pm (#25 of 496)

I do agree though that Pansy doesn't have a lot of strength to her character. She snobbish and rude... she plays a true Slytherin because that's who's accepted her and she wants to stay in her little niche. I'd say its entirely likely that she isn't purebood and hides behind the facade that she is to keep Draco interested and the other Slytherin's respect.

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Feb 24, 2004 6:05 am (#26 of 496)

Wannabe writer
Perhaps her original thought was to call her 'Pansy Parker', but since that sounds too "common" (and here in the UK it has a very dodgy meaning), upgraded it to Parkinson, which, although hardly the most lyrical of surnames, is slightly more unusual.

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haymoni - Mar 3, 2004 8:54 am (#27 of 496)

I had noticed that Lily & Petunia are "flower names" and wondered if there was anything to the fact that Pansy had a flower name also. Are there other characters with flower names? I guess Narcissa could be a flower name - I believe there is a Narcissus flower - but I prefer to think that she is narcissistic (spelling???).

Pansy, while she seems to be the leader of the Slytherin girls, follows Draco's lead - will she remain loyal to Draco or go off on her own?

I'm torn on this because I am obsessed with thinking that Draco may not return to Hogwarts and then where would Pansy be?

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Czarina - Mar 3, 2004 11:25 am (#28 of 496)

Distraught, of course. Somehow, I have the feeling that Draco will be returning to Hogwarts for sixth year despite the fact that his wonderful dad is in prison. He wants to get back at Harry, remember?

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haymoni - Mar 3, 2004 12:12 pm (#29 of 496)

I just can't imagine Narcissa allowing her baby boy to go to a school run by the wizard that imprisoned her husband.

Draco mentions bullying his father - maybe he has Narcissa wrapped around his little finger, also.

I was just thinking that without Draco there, Pansy may be a bit lost. Or maybe SHE's the one that gets back at Harry.

If her family is connected with the DEs, or even if they are prejudiced about the pure blood thing, she may be told to lay low and keep the family's views to herself.

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mooncalf - Mar 3, 2004 12:27 pm (#30 of 496)

In reference to haymoni's question, there are other flower names: Poppy Pomfrey, Lavender Brown. I think that JKR just likes them.

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firebird - Mar 3, 2004 1:07 pm (#31 of 496)

haymoni: "Draco mentions bullying his father"

I think yes, he's been quite spoilt by his father, who gets him everything he wants and buys his son's way into the Quidditch team by buying them all brooms, and shelters him from his deatheater world... but Harry's experience in Knockturn Alley seems a bit different. As if Lucius is a bit cold towards Draco (not exactly wrapped around his finger at least) and I wonder if there isn't anything there... intriguing... hm... But my inference probably belongs in the 'bad childhoods' thread.

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haymoni - Mar 3, 2004 1:24 pm (#32 of 496)

Draco may have his own defenses in dealing with a father who is cold towards him. Maybe he says things like the "bullying" comment to make himself feel better.

Back to Miss Parkinson - I rememer Millicent being in Umbridge's office holding Hermione back. Who was Pansy holding on to? Ginny?

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Czarina - Mar 3, 2004 4:10 pm (#33 of 496)

Was Pansy there? I don't remember, although I guess she'd be needed. All I remember specifically is that Millicent was holding Hermione and Malfoy was sitting at the window and not holding onto anyone at all. If Crabbe and Goyle had Ron and Neville, I guess Pansy had to have Ginny. Umbridge had Harry, right?

I don't have the book to check.

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Peregrine - Mar 3, 2004 9:33 pm (#34 of 496)

For once I have my book...Pansy's not mentioned being there. Warrington had hold of Ron and a "large Slytherin girl" had Ginny.

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haymoni - Mar 4, 2004 7:25 am (#35 of 496)

Hmmm... no Pansy involved??? She was a prefect - I can't believe she would not have been in on this.

Strange...

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Czarina - Mar 4, 2004 7:31 am (#36 of 496)

She was probably filing her nails at the time or something and couldn't be bothered. Or maybe Draco didn't want her there in case things got ugly, but that's unlikely. More likely that the Squad wanted brawn to apprehend the DA members -- Crabbe, Goyle, Millicent, Warrington, and an unnamed sixth/seventh-year Slytherin girl. Pansy is more of a dainty airhead. Of course, Draco probably wouldn't have been able to hold onto anyone either.

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haymoni - Mar 4, 2004 8:02 am (#37 of 496)

She delights in insulting Hermione. I just can't believe she would miss this opportunity.

Pansy not as bad as we thought?

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Tomoé - Mar 4, 2004 10:22 am (#38 of 496)

Back in business
"Filch prowled the corridor with a horsewhip ready in his hands, desperate to catch miscreants, but the problem was that there were now so many of them he never knew which way to turn. The Inquisitorial Squad was attempting to help him, but odd things kept happening to its members. [...] Pansy Parkinson, to Hermione’s delight, missed all her lessons the following day as she had sprouted antlers." (UK OoP p.597, Grawp)

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rambkowalczyk - Mar 24, 2004 7:26 am (#39 of 496)

Maybe Pansy has mixed feelings about Draco. In the 3 book she had a valid reason to be angry at Hagrid. The hippogryph did attack Draco. Hagrid should have known that a hippogryph was too dangerous for third years. But Draco deceived her in to thinking that Madame Pomphrey couldn't cure him completely right away. Although she was initially part of the Inquisitional Squad maybe Draco lied to her about something else that made her less enthusiastic about being with him.

I consider this unlikely as my gut feeling is that she would rather believe Draco than think for herself. None-the-less she wasn't part of the group that captured Harry and friends in Umbridge's office.

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Czarina - Mar 24, 2004 7:48 am (#40 of 496)

The politics of Slytherin House would be rather interesting to explore. Pansy seems to be playing the part of the over-entusiastic girlfriend who's a bit of a dimwit. She would much rather let Draco boss her around, or would she?

Pansy is the leader of the Slytherin girls, which is probably why she was made prefect. None of the other girls (indeed, probably none of the boys, either) want to cross "Draco Malfoy's girlfriend"! Just think of the repercussions! Malfoy would likely side with Pansy over anyone else, except maybe Crabbe and Goyle.

But next year, Draco will have a blemished reputation as the son of Lucius, captured Death Eater in Azkaban. If he has less influence (or money) now, what will his "friends" think? Or Pansy? She might not be so keen on defending Malfoy if she knows he isn't as powerful. Or will her loyal Slytherinas be less afraid to join the DA (or something of the sort) if they know that the Pansy-Draco threat has weakened?

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Emily - Apr 23, 2004 6:20 pm (#41 of 496)

I think Pansy's playing the part of the 'dumb bully' just to be Malfoy's girl friend. I think she wants to be seen with him because of all the political power his family has - had - in the Wizarding World, and because he's pureblood. Malfoy, of course, would never go out with someone smarter than himself, or with someone who was nice, so she plays the dumb bully.

Does anyone else think there might be something Draco might not know about Pansy? I don't know, maybe she's a muggle-born or something?

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Sarah Shrub - May 5, 2004 4:24 am (#42 of 496)

I think Pansy has a secret. That's why I started this thread. But of course I don´t know which secret that is. I beleive she both relatives whom she is proud of and realatives whom she dislike.

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Verbina - May 5, 2004 6:30 am (#43 of 496)

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Perhaps she has a relative that is connected to the Weasley's? She would want to keep that a secret since Draco dislikes them so much.

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Julia. - May 5, 2004 7:48 am (#44 of 496)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Or worse, in Malfoy's opinion, she's related to the Potters.

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Tomoé - May 5, 2004 7:58 am (#45 of 496)

Back in business
Or she could be related with some Muggles.

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Prefect Marcus - May 26, 2004 3:22 pm (#46 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by May 26, 2004 3:28 pm
I just completed a study of Pansy. I originally started it because I wanted to see if my Harry/Pansy 'ship had any real support in the books, or if it was highly unlikely from the text. So I went through each book carefully noting every reference to Pansy. I cross-correlated them with references to similar characters. What I found was most interesting.

I wrote a report and submitted it to the Lexicon. Hopefully Steve will post it. In the meantime, here are the main points.

(1) She and Draco are the only Slytherin students that talk. Marcus Flint did have a one line protest concerning Harry swallowing the snitch, but that is the sole exception. The rest of the Slytherins are never quoted as saying anything. This includes Crabbe and Goyle, who are almost always present when Draco is.

(2) She shows concern and compassion for others, possibly including even Hermione. No other Slytherin student does.

(3) Though she is seen as Draco's girlfriend, he and she are not in lockstep. In fact, there are several instances where he and she take different paths.

(4) She never abuses her authority as a prefect or as a member of the Inquisitorial Squad. Others are shown lording over their fellow students and being Umbridge's henchmen. Not Pansy. Not once. When sent to the hospital wing with antlers on her head, no mention is made of any alleged misdeed meriting this, nor is there any mention of attempts at retribution She is not in Umbridge's office when Harry got caught. This is mentioned in post #35.

(5) In OoP, she is present many times, nearly always exposing Harry and his friends to her hurtful humor. She disappears entirely after the Quibbler article is published. She is only mentioned by others, she is never present herself.

(6) She is shown having a definite feminine side. She wears very feminine dress robes (very frilly pale pink) to the Yule Ball. She has a hard time hiding her girlish glee at the unicorn foals that Hagrid shows his class.

(7) Finally, Harry is decidedly neutral towards her. The narrator says she is hard-faced and pug-faced. Hermione calls her "that complete cow, thicker than a concussed troll!" Harry stays neutral. Not once does he criticize her. Not once. In spite of all the teasing she gives him and his friends, in spite of the embarassment she caused him and Cho at the start of their date, he does not criticize her. Never.

Yes, I am aware of Harry not wanting to give her the satisfaction of knowing her letter caused Hermione physical pain and suffering, but it did not say Harry thought she was. It only said he wanted to keep her from doing it. I admit it is a fine point, but in light of his reluctance elsewhere to criticize her, I think it valid.

Haymoni, it looks like you were right! (post #37)

If any of you can find instances in the text where I am wrong -- Slytherins talking, for instance -- please post!

So what do you guys think? It puts a whole new light on Pansy, does it not?

Marcus

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Padfoot - May 26, 2004 3:32 pm (#47 of 496)

I didn't realize the other Slytherins did not talk. I assumed that Crabbe and Goyle did, but I can't think of anything memorable they said. I wonder why we don't see (read) more Slytherins talking?

I would not be surprised to see Pansy have a larger role in the coming books. Especially if Draco transfers to another school or diminishes in some other way. Whether she becomes friends with Harry or becomes the next Draco I'm not sure. Until OotP, I did not pay much attention to her. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to her until I came on this forum.

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haymoni - May 26, 2004 3:37 pm (#48 of 496)

I wondered where you had been, Marcus - you were much too quiet.

That was quite an undertaking!

I remember when you first posted your Harry/Pansy theory - it seemed so bizarre it just has to be right!

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mike miller - May 26, 2004 6:14 pm (#49 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Well done Marcus! Take 10 points! (I'm in the mood for giving out points today). Like most of what you post, it has been well thought out and presented in an organized manner. Some of your points are a bit subjective and potentially open to interpretation; i.e., compassionate? I'm actually most intrigued by #5. I think what you've proposed is certainly possible and there are several clues that could point that way. As I think I mentioned once before, if Pansy comes wanting to join the DA early in book 6 then you may have a convert!

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ex-FAHgeek - May 26, 2004 8:11 pm (#50 of 496)

---quote--- (2) She shows concern and compassion for others, possibly including even Hermione. No other Slytherin student does. ---end quote---

I find this one interesting. I suppose one of the main points would be Draco vs. Buckbeak when Pansy seems (overly) concerned with how Draco's feeling. I must admit to being very surprised the first time someone mentioned that Draco had managed to fool her with his injuries. When I read those scenes for the first few times, I had been under the impression that Pansy knew full well that Draco wasn't seriously hurt at all - she was playing up that melodramatic sympathy for him as a "witness" to help get Hagrid sacked and Buckbeak punished.

Just my two cents...

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Pansy Parkinson Empty Pansy Parkinson (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:27 am

rambkowalczyk - May 26, 2004 8:15 pm (#51 of 496)
What letter caused Hermione pain and physical suffering?

Although she wasn't in Umbridge office in June with the rest of the Inquisition Squad, she was part of the group that discovered Harry doing DADA lessons. (Umbridge tells Parkinson to check the girls lavatory). This happened after the Quibbler was published.

Still an interesting theory.

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Weeny Owl - May 26, 2004 8:28 pm (#52 of 496)

I wish I could see Pansy the way you do, Marcus, but to me, she's just another Bellatrix waiting to happen.

I understand how you came to the viewpoint you did, but as it stands, I just can't see her as anything other than a Death Nibbler.

Sorry, Marcus.

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Czarina II - May 26, 2004 8:38 pm (#53 of 496)

Well-done, interesting analysis, Marcus. Still, I see Pansy as more of a fluffball -- I guess it has to do with the frilly pink robes! The fact that Harry seems rather neutral toward her could be because he doesn't see her as anything worth bothering about. Pansy is still a silly-girl in my mind until JKR writes otherwise. So far, her character is a perfect girlfriend for Draco, not Harry.

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Prefect Marcus - May 26, 2004 11:19 pm (#54 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by May 26, 2004 11:20 pm
rambkowalczvk - What letter caused Hermione pain and physical suffering?
The letter that had bubotuber pus in it.

Although she wasn't in Umbridge office in June with the rest of the Inquisition Squad, she was part of the group that discovered Harry doing DADA lessons. (Umbridge tells Parkinson to check the girls lavatory). This happened after the Quibbler was published.

Read it again. She tells DRACO to use her to check the girls' lavatory. Nowhere does it mention Pansy as being there.

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rambkowalczyk - May 27, 2004 3:35 am (#55 of 496)

Marcus, I must nitpic. It seems highly unlikely that Umbridge thinks Pansy is there when raiding the DADA classes when she isn't.

Even if she was there,it doesn't necessarily discredit your theory. It could be that at that time Pansy thought Umbridge had the "moral authority". Umbridge may have said Harry and his cohorts were doing something to destroy the Ministry and felt obligated to help. By June she changed her mind.

It also occured to me that Pansy could be jealous of Hermione and Cho. This was previously mentioned by Alexa in Post 6 on Harry's ship uniting the houses. Maybe she thinks Harry is cute.

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Catherine - May 27, 2004 4:26 am (#56 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Pansy WAS present during the raid on the DADA lessons in the Room of Requirement.

Umbridge says that Pansy ran into the Room of Requirement to see if any evidence had been left behind, and came out with the list of "Dumbledore's Army."

So, I conclude that Pansy was present, and that she did not, as Marcus suggests, "disappear entirely" after publication of the Quibbler article.

I also strenuously disagree with the characterization of Pansy as compassionate. I posted these arguments elsewhere, so I won't repeat the exercise. At the very least, Pansy shows herself to be insensitive and petty. As she is written to date, she is spiteful, mean, and untruthful. Right now, I believe that she comes across as a poisonous little toadstool.

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haymoni - May 27, 2004 6:00 am (#57 of 496)

I am no flag-waver for Pansy's morals or behavior - I just support the theory that Harry & Pansy will get together.

Most of my belief comes from the original posting of Prefect Marcus in the "Harry's 'Ship will Unite the Houses" thread which used JKR's statement that nobody on the websites has gotten Harry's love life right and that it was connected to a major theme of the book. I think his analysis in that thread was most convincing.

The other thing I have to tell myself is that Harry is a teen-ager. While I am aware of a few exceptions, most people I know met their future spouses after high school. I don't necessarily think that Pansy will become the love of his life. She could just be a girl Harry becomes attracted to, like Cho was.

Remember that line from the movie "Speed" about relationships that start from some sort of shared, traumatic event? They never last. Maybe Harry & Pansy are faced with some sort of situation like that.

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Tomoé - May 27, 2004 6:46 am (#58 of 496)

Back in business
She is shown having a definite feminine side. She wears very feminine dress robes (very frilly pale pink) to the Yule Ball. She has a hard time hiding her girlish glee at the unicorn foals that Hagrid shows his class.

Parvati is feminine too and so is Cho, Harry is clueless about feminine way to pass subtle messages, Harry and Pansy's relation will end like Harry and Parvati or Cho's. He need someone that will forgive his lack of tact and comprehension of the women's ways. May I suggest Hannah Abbot, perhaps.

I agree with Catherine Pansy was present to during the raid on the DADA lessons in the Room of Requirement, Umbridge wouldn't had get someone in the Slyth common room to look in the Room of Requirement when she have plenty of trust worthy students near her already. Pansy was around the whole time.

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Prefect Marcus - May 27, 2004 8:28 am (#59 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by May 27, 2004 8:30 am
Apparently I did not make myself plain. My bad. Sorry.

I meant to say that Pansy is never PRESENT after the Quibbler article. I did not mean to imply that she fell off the face of the earth afterwards. I meant to say she is only mentioned by others. In other words, she is never "on-screen". She is only talked about, never actually there.

We can argue back and forth as to whether or not she took part in the DA raid, or how active she was if she did. But the fact is she was never seen by the reader.

I do not have my book with me, so I cannot vouch for Catherine's mention of her getting the DA list. This certainly could be a reference that I missed. I will check later. I would think it would show that she did take part in the raid. But my original assertion stands. The reader never sees her after the Quibbler article.

Coincidence? Certainly possible, but there are just too many Pansy coincidences adding up. I am an engineer and we have a saying when faced with an event we can't explain. Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a trend. Well, we're long past three times with Pansy!

Haymoni, I like your idea that it might be a flash in the pan type of thing. I will post what I think over on the Pansy/Harry 'ship thread.

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Catherine - May 27, 2004 8:51 am (#60 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Pansy was certainly present in the DADA raid.

From Chapter 27, "The Centaur and the Sneak," p. 617 Scholastic hardback:

"I have all their names here, Miss Parkinson ran into the Room of Requirement for me to see if they had left anything behind...We needed evidence and the room provided..."

Pansy's presence there implies that she is one of the students Umbridge calls "certain trustworthy students" in a quote preceding the one I posted above.

Certainly, Pansy has lots of room for improvement, and maybe she will redeem herself in future novels. But at this writing, I can't see Harry having a relationship with one of Umbridge's Inquisitorial Stooges--oops, I mean Squad.

But arguing over it is half the fun, I think!

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Prefect Marcus - May 27, 2004 9:23 am (#61 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Catherine,

Harry may or may not have a relationship with Pansy. It may or may not last, as Haymoni points out. That is talked about over on the "Harry's 'ship" thread. But Rowling is doing something with her, that I am convinced.

I challenge any of you who doubt me to repeat my research and come to a different conclusion. Rowling is just being too clever with her.

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Catherine - May 27, 2004 10:45 am (#62 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Well, Marcus, I'm not sure what conclusion you are challenging us about in your last post. Are you challenging us to disprove the relationship theory, or that Rowling is being clever about Pansy and has bigger plans for her?

I think that some of your statements are not quite factually true. Marcus Flint actually does talk in CoS in the chapter "Mudbloods and Murmurs," and he speaks during the Quidditch Final in PoA. The Slytherins sing, "Weasley is Our King" and we "see" their words. So your "sole exception" does not really apply. Or do you want to amend that statement? Pansy was part of the DA raid--would you like to amend your statements about that? You claim that she didn't do anything to warrant antlers--I don't know--perhaps someone thought helping Umbridge to get Harry and Dumbledore in trouble warranted horns? Or maybe someone thought she deserved them because she helped Umbridge paint a bad picture of Hagrid during Umbridge's observation of his class? Or one of the targets of what you termed her "hurtful humor" had had enough?

I really don't think the text supports Pansy as a compassionate person, as I have argued ad nauseum! As for her character's development, I can't argue against Pansy becoming more important in future books--we just don't know. I think she could always have a place as an antagonist without becoming extremely important, or undergoing a real transformation. Maybe JKR needed a female student "villain" to balance Draco. But there are still two books to go, and she could.

I'd like to argue more completely today, but I just got back from the doctor's office, and he said I have to avoid stress, because that's what's caused my severe hives breakout! Plus, I have to pack for the beach for Memorial Day Weekend (I should be really attractive in my bathing suit covered in hives!). Arguing is making me too itchy, so someone else will have to take up the banner today!

Cheers to all!

EDIT: Marcus, did you sprinkle some Bulbadox powder to give me hives because I don't agree with you? ;-) Only joking, everyone...

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Prefect Marcus - May 27, 2004 12:32 pm (#63 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Catherine,

I stand by everything that I said in my original post. Thank-you for finding the additional references to Marcus Flint speaking. I will ammend my assertion. However, you still have not shown me where another Slytherin student besides Draco, Pansy, and (rarely) Marcus Flint are quoted as saying anything. Are you really saying that the entire Slytherin cheering section chanting and singing in unison is the same as an individual being quoted?

What statements about the DA raid do you think I should ammend? I never once said she didn't participate in the raid. I said she did not appear on-screen and was only mentioned by others. Why does that need ammending?

Pansy burst into tears when Draco got hurt, and then ran to his bedside to see if he was all right. Why is this not showing compassion and concern?

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Tomoé - May 27, 2004 1:02 pm (#64 of 496)

Back in business
Yes she was showing compassion and concern for Draco at this moment, but she didn't seem to show compassion and concern for the timid-looking second-years Draco was pushing out of the way. Nor did she for Neville and Parvati in the flying lesson. Nor did she for Harry when he faint because of a Dementor. Nor did she for Harry and Cho on St Valentine Day

If Harry want a 24/7 compassioned and concerned girl, he should look to Hannah Abbott who showed compassion and concern for Eloise Midgen while Professor Sprout find nothing better to say than "Silly girl" and Hannah defended Harry against the other Hufflepuff when every hint was connecting Potter with the heir of Slytherin.

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Prefect Marcus - May 27, 2004 1:12 pm (#65 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Hannah Abbott would be a good choice for a compassionate and concerned girl,

You are correct that Pansy is certainly no Hannah Abbott, but does any other Slytherin show any signs of it at all? They did get angry when Draco got hurt, but Pansy was the only one that cried and ran ahead to see if he was all right.

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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 1:14 pm (#66 of 496)

Let it snow!
I agree that JKR is doing something more with Pansy than just making her a background character but I'm afraid it is more setting her up a the next Narcissa or Bellatrix (more the former than the latter, more tact), a companion for Draco in working against Harry not a companion for Harry.

EDIT: Marcus, I don't think that is a very valid argument as you've already shown that the other Slytherins aren't really shown doing much of anything at all and so aren't focused on enough to know how they react. Only Pansy would be focused on enough in the story to show concern for Draco if she's the only other major character representing Slytherin....

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Tomoé - May 27, 2004 1:24 pm (#67 of 496)

Back in business
Millicent had Hermione in a headlock and Hermione was whimpering in pain. Both of their wands lay forgotten on the floor. Harry leapt forward and pulled Millicent off. It was difficult, she was a lot bigger than he was.

What if Millicent let Harry freed Hermione out of compassion and concern?

a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face

What if the Mysterious Slytherin was feeling compassion and concern for the cow?

(Just kidding for those ones ^_^)

I agree with Sarah, we don't know enough of the other Slytherins to say none of them have ever show compassion and concern. Even Pansy could fake it to get Draco (some people are uncanny good to cry on command).

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Weeny Owl - May 27, 2004 2:51 pm (#68 of 496)

The female of the species can be as deadly, if not moreso, than the male.

I still see Pansy as the next installment of Bella (or as Sarah said, Narcissa).

Regardless of whether or not her compassion for Draco was sincere, she has still shown throughout the series that she has a very strong sadistic streak. I cannot see how that can be tempered in the remaining two books.

She went out of her way to hurt people through Rita Skeeter, and I really don't see how someone that vindictive and hateful can be anything other than what we see.

I agree with Sarah that JKR probably does have more planned for Pansy than just being Draco's sidekick, but I think it will be something even worse than what she's done so far.

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I Am Used Vlad - May 27, 2004 8:17 pm (#69 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
I was reading through the Albert Hall interview that Tomoé posted a link to on the Treason in Book 6 and/or 7 thread and found a question that ties in with the debate about Pansy.

"How do you decide how the baddies will be like?"

Part of the answer is "I think from the letters I get from the people your age I think nearly all of you will know a Draco Malfoy and I think the girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson."

JKR seems to consider Pansy a "baddie."

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Tomoé - May 27, 2004 8:47 pm (#70 of 496)

Back in business
I knew I should have been faster. -_-

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Loopy Lupin - May 28, 2004 5:51 am (#71 of 496)

Just for my two Knuts, I have long said that I believe the Harry/Pansy ship theory is viable and something that could come to happen.

That being said, I do not find her to be particularly compassionate or, at this point, particularly distinguishable from the other Slytherins. Yes, yes, she is moved to tears and runs to check on Draco after the Hippogriff incident. Of course, she had just watched someone she apparently cares about be attacked by a rather formidable creature. (Malfoy's fault or not, it wasn't very wise of Hagrid to start off his COMC class with a creature that has the ability-- if not the inclination-- to slash someone to bits.) This had to be rather traumatic and it would be natural to be upset. The Death Nibblers and other Slytherins may be obnoxious and prejudiced, but I don't think we consider them evil (yet) or beyond human emotion. There is also the not unimportant fact that JKR may have created Pansy's reaction simply as a dramatic device to heighten the panic and shock surrounding what the class had just witnessed.

My point is that as far as Pansy's compassion and caring are concerned, I remain unimpressed from what I have seen.

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Essidji - May 28, 2004 6:13 am (#72 of 496)

There is also the not unimportant fact that JKR may have created Pansy's reaction simply as a dramatic device to heighten the panic and shock surrounding what the class had just witnessed.

Or maybe to illustrate how naive she is, not to see Draco is faking a severe injury?

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Tomoé - May 28, 2004 6:22 am (#73 of 496)

Back in business
Right Loopy and Essidji, maybe she wasn't crying for Draco at all, maybe she was crying because her own life could have been in danger and could still be in next lessons.

Edit : her own life and her friends life, who can tell who will be next.

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S.E. Jones - May 28, 2004 3:31 pm (#74 of 496)

Let it snow!
Or maybe she's crying because she likes Draco. I think she dotes on him later because she wants to. The only time we really seem to see her show real compassion, i.e. compassion that isn't easily mistaken for something else, in my opinion, is when it concerns Draco....

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Dumbledore - May 29, 2004 6:06 am (#75 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I agree with you SE. Along with all of the things you have said, it also did seem like she was pretty happy to be on his arm at the Yule Ball!

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Dan Wells - May 31, 2004 9:53 pm (#76 of 496)

Personally, I'm going to stick to the fact she's a Slytherin. If the Malfoy family loses too much money and/or power I think Draco will be dumped faster than a burning cat litter box!!

Dan

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Mare - Jun 1, 2004 4:35 am (#77 of 496)

I always felt that the reason Pansy showed compassion to Draco was to draw attention to herself.
Like in a "look here is the hottest boy of our year and I care for him, I am his girlfriend, and O my gosh he is hurt how awful that is, such troubles we are in, pity me!"

You get the point

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 5:47 am (#78 of 496)

I don't know how good looking Draco is supposed to be in the books. (He's getting confused with Tom Felton as JKR pointed out in a chat.) But he's most likely one of the more wealthy students. Anyway, I think Mare's point is likely closer to the mark than Pansy having true compassion.

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Rosmerta - Jun 1, 2004 11:25 am (#79 of 496)

I dont think I buy into the whole Harry/Pansy ship. I think it would take miraculous circumstances to bring it together, and it would cause too many irreversible consequences. Hermione cannot stand Pansy, she probably hates her almost as much as she hates Draco, and if Harry were to even show her friendship, I think Hermione would feel incredibly betrayed and hurt. I see Pansy as a true Slytherin, she obviously has worked very hard to move her way up into the top of the Slytherin fold and get close to Draco, why throw all of that away to be with the person Slytherns probably hate the most? Based on the idea that she must be a pureblood (I think that her being half-blooded or muggle-born would be very difficult to keep from all of slytherin, especially the well-informed Malfoy family), it is very likely that she has relatives that are death-eaters (just because there have been no Parkinson's mentioned does not mean they don't exist, or that because of the abundance of pureblood connections she isnt closely related to someone with a different last name than her own), and this would make her sympathetic to Lucius and Draco and offer her no deterrent to leave Draco because he has been embarassed by his father's arrest. Wow, I didn't expect this post to turn out so lenghty, but the bottom line is, I don't think Pansy will ever be in a relationship with Harry, and I don't think she is a compassionate person, I think she knows how to be kind to those she loves (or just wants to be accepted by), but she takes too much pleasure in hurting others to be called compassionate.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 12:45 pm (#80 of 496)

Rosemerta, all your points are certainly valid. I put myself down as a believer in this theory. However, my prior posts argued against Pansy's supposed "compassion" are there because I, too, believe that some "miraculous circumstances" will be the catalyst for this relationship. I don't think that she is just "pretending" to be so mean at this time. Sometimes, a major event can effect an amazing change in people. We've yet to see what that major event will be.

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haymoni - Jun 1, 2004 1:31 pm (#81 of 496)

I said somewhere that I thought Pansy's parents, now that Voldemort has returned, would make Pansy stay away from Draco. That could lead her to Harry.

I can't recall Pansy engaging in the "Mudblood" taunts so maybe she does not have the prejudices that Draco has.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 7, 2004 1:17 pm (#82 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
haymoni - I can't recall Pansy engaging in the "Mudblood" taunts so maybe she does not have the prejudices that Draco has.

You are correct, haymoni.

Pansy is far from being a paragon of virtue. But for being such a prominent Slytherin, Rowling is keeping her surprisingly free from their worst traits.

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Dan Wells - Jun 8, 2004 10:10 pm (#83 of 496)

Hi!

It's also possible that Pansy engages in her anti-mudblood activities in a more subtle or quiet manner. Or she gossips about it when Gryffindors aren't nearby.

Or she likes Harry and doesn't express her true anti-mudblood feelings in his presence to avoid offending him.

She could have all the Slytherin's worst traits and just be more subtle than Draco has been. Perhaps she'll finally teach him subtlety now that daddy's in prison. That may bring her forward in the story without making her a nice person.

Just a thought!

Dan

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 9, 2004 9:16 am (#84 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
A good thought indeed, Dan. It has occurred to me once or twice.

My main problem with it is that it goes against one of the biggest themes of the book, prejudice. It relies completely upon anti-Slytherin prejudice on the part of the reader. "She is a Slytherin, therefore she must act and think this way."

That is a dangerous assumption given Rowling's predilection for red herrings!

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Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 9:34 am (#85 of 496)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Sorry, but I don't think Harry and Pansy is going to happen.

However, I do think you have good points. JKR just might break her trend of having Slytherins being bad, and making Pansy a nice person.

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mike miller - Jun 9, 2004 9:41 am (#86 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Slytherins aren't necessarily bad, just ambitious. Over ambition can easily lead to sacrificing values, the end justifies the means. I have yet to make up my mind on Harry's 'ship, no one seems to stand out. Pansy is an option but she will have to win over Hermione, the victim of most of Pansy's unseemly behavior, before she has a chance with Harry.

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Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 9:47 am (#87 of 496)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Mike, you've brought up something there.

If Harry was to date Pansy or Millicent or any Slytherin girl, would his friends desert him with Ron and his anti-Slytherin ways and Hermione, who finds pleasure out of the Slytherin's pain. (Draco's detention PS/SS and Pansy's antlers OP )

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 9, 2004 9:57 am (#88 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 9, 2004 9:59 am
I am making two assertions. The first is Rowling is taking great pains in writing Pansy. If you study the text carefully attempting to determine if there is strong evidence one way or the other, I am confident you will see it too. The second is more speculative. Harry and Pansy will get together.

If Rowling is being careful with Pansy, there must be a reason. I strongly suspect it will ultimately be a H/P 'ship. But even if that never happens, Rowling is up to something, and I can't wait to find out what!

Good question, Prongs! Makes for some interesting entanglements.

Where is book #6!

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mike miller - Jun 9, 2004 9:59 am (#89 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
If Prefect Marcus is correct, JKR will show us through Pansy's actions that she's either turned over a new leaf or they misjudged her before. A public "dumping" of Draco would be a good start, maybe passing along a vital piece of information at personal risk to her would be another.

Without the proper "set-up", I don't think Harry would be the slightest interested in a 'ship with Pansy.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 9, 2004 10:19 am (#90 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
I agree completely, Mike. She could become the leader of the anti-Voldemort Slytherins. She could be the first Slytherin to join DA.

I agree that the H/P 'ship hasn't a snowball's chance without her reforming.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 9, 2004 2:50 pm (#91 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 9, 2004 3:10 pm
I would like to call your attention to a most curious incident in GoF.

Rita Skeeter's anti-Hermione article had just been published. In it, "pretty and vivacious" Pansy is quoted as hinting that maybe Hermione has been brewing up love potions. Of course, what Pansy really looks like and what she really said is debatable since it IS a Skeeter article.

Pansy is shown having great fun at Hermione's expense when the article comes out. The next day, Herimone starts getting hate mail culminating with the letter containing raw bubotuber pus. This causes severe blisters on her hands, and she leaves breakfast in great pain to go to the hospital wing. Hermione misses her first class altogether. The next class is CoMC with the Slytherins.

When Pansy notices Hermione missing, she asks Harry what had upset her so much during breakfast. Harry ignores her, not wanting to give her the satisfaction of knowing she had caused Hermione pain. Later, when Hagrid asks Ron where Hermione is, Harry notices that Pansy is listening when Ron says she had to go to the Hospital wing. Finally, when Hermione is seen approaching the class now in progress, Harry sees Pansy watching her 'beadily'.

So here we have Pansy gathering information about Hermione. She knows Hermione is suffering. She knows Hermione left breakfast early, upset and in apparent pain. She knows Hermione is late for class, something Hermione never is. She knows Hermione had to go to the hospital wing. She later sees Hermione coming late to class with bandaged hands.

Question, where is the zing? She has never shown reticence in mocking Hermione before. She wasn't shy before the bubotuber letter. Why now? She did something that indirectly caused Hermione pain and suffering. Why didn't she rub it in? Where's the gloating?

What does this say about Pansy?

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Catherine - Jun 9, 2004 4:43 pm (#92 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Well, Hermione calls Pansy "thicker than a concussed troll" in OoP. And Hermione has had first-hand experience with a concussed troll! Perhaps Pansy had not, up to that point, connected those events and realized that Hermione's absence was connected with the Rita Skeeter article.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 9, 2004 8:26 pm (#93 of 496)

As for Pansy being said to be "pretty and vivacious," Rita Skeeter also called Hermione "stunningly pretty" until Hermione got on her bad side.

We don't know what Pansy may have been plotting while watching Hermione. Just because she didn't make any snotty remarks doesn't mean her intentions were honorable. It seems to me that she just wanted to see if there was anything juicy to report to Rita Skeeter that would hurt Hermione and Harry even more.
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Maollelujah - Jun 10, 2004 12:37 am (#94 of 496)

You might as well add Crabbe and Goyle to the list of 'future Good Slytherin.' Because besides flex their muscles, what have they really done that has been bad? They haven't hexed anyone, or said one bad word about anyone. Which goes to show how easy it is to twist things in almost any Slytherin's favor, since we only see their actions a handful of times.

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Tomoé - Jun 10, 2004 9:55 am (#95 of 496)

Back in business
Millicent too could be a nice person, she's bad with Hermione only, she never specifically done against Ron, Harry or anyone else, we just don't know enough of those Slytherins, I hope book 6 will be their book.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 10, 2004 11:59 am (#96 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 10, 2004 12:00 pm
You are all correct. It is true that other Slytherins might turn to the good side. But I am still very much intrigued by this little Pansy episode. Why did Rowling put it in? What is its purpose? Why go to all the trouble to set up the shot, but then fail to pull the trigger? Even if Pansy was scheming to pass that bit of juicy gossip to Rita, we have no record of her doing it. Is there something comparable elsewhere where a Slytherin gathered information against the trio but didn't use it? I can't think of one. Anybody?

We already know that Hermione is in pain. We already know that Pansy is a snot. But no matter how you slice and dice it, Pansy simply is not acting like a snot here.

What is Rowling trying to do? Is it just sloppy writing? Is it just a flabby bit of writing left in on the rush to get GoF out the door? If it isn't sloppy writing, then why is it there?

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Weeny Owl - Jun 10, 2004 12:31 pm (#97 of 496)

Well, Marcus, I kind of like the concussed troll thing.

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Tomoé - Jun 10, 2004 2:02 pm (#98 of 496)

Back in business
Did Pansy make fun of Hermione after that episode?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 2:08 pm (#99 of 496)

Let it snow!
Prefect Marcus: When Pansy notices Hermione missing, she asks Harry what had upset her so much during breakfast. Harry ignores her, not wanting to give her the satisfaction of knowing she had caused Hermione pain. Later, when Hagrid asks Ron where Hermione is, Harry notices that Pansy is listening when Ron says she had to go to the Hospital wing. Finally, when Hermione is seen approaching the class now in progress, Harry sees Pansy watching her 'beadily'. So here we have Pansy gathering information about Hermione.

I didn't take this as Pansy gathering info on Hermione, rather her enjoying the fruits of her labor. She had already passed the info to Rita that got Hermione sent the letters with the curses in them. She isn't gathering more info, she's just finding out the details of what happened when Hermione opened her "fan" mail. She wanted to know how bad it was. She was being nosy. She wasn't gathering more info and just not turning it over to Rita, but enjoying what her info had wrought.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 10, 2004 2:12 pm (#100 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
So Pansy is smart enough to notice Hermione being upset at breakfast, smart enough to notice she isn't coming to class on time, smart enough to know something is going on so she needs to listen closely when Ron is telling Hagrid why Hermione is missing, smart enough to study Hermione closely as she arrives at the class later, but she is too stupid to put two-and-two together and come up with a reason (right or wrong) to give Hermione a hard time -- something she absolutely relishes doing?

As for Hermione's concussed troll remark, it wouldn't be the first time a Rowling character has allowed their personal feelings get in the way of an accurate assessment of character. Why should Hermione be any different?

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 10, 2004 2:15 pm (#101 of 496)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 10, 2004 2:16 pm
Good idea, Sarah. But Pansy has not been known to quietly sit back and enjoy the fruits, as you put it. She is mainly known for her nasty tongue. I can't think of anytime in the series -- other than here -- that she passed up the opportunity to give Hermione a hard time, even if it be silently giggling. Can you?

So why here?

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Padfoot - Jun 10, 2004 2:30 pm (#102 of 496)

You are right Marcus, Pansy does take every opportunity to laugh at Hermione or give her a hard time. That is odd that she doesn't laugh at her (Hermione) hands. I'm sure she could come up with a good nasty comment easily.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 2:51 pm (#103 of 496)

Let it snow!
Well, as they are ending the lesson at the time Hermione comes out, she really doesn't have time to make fun of her. Hermione goes straight up to Hagrid, the lesson ends, and then they go straight up to the castle. Pansy may be upset that Hermione didn't get worse or something, hence her watching Hermione "beadily".

By the way, if anyone is interested, as far as I can find, "beadily" just means "with beady eyes".


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Tomoé - Jun 10, 2004 3:09 pm (#104 of 496)

Back in business
Is Pansy nasty within the classes (exept maybe in Potions where the teacher is openly pro-Slytherins)?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 3:13 pm (#105 of 496)

Let it snow!
She's not exactly sugar and honey in Care of Magical Creatures. Otherwise, we don't ever really get to see her, do we? I do remember a lot of "Potter, there's a dementor" type jokes from her in between classes in PoA.....

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Dumbledore - Jun 10, 2004 3:15 pm (#106 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
She did make a crack about him and Cho when they were walking to Hogsmeade...something about Harry not being handsome enough for her.

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Tomoé - Jun 10, 2004 3:17 pm (#107 of 496)

Back in business
So maybe she said nothing to Hermione just because she didn't want to loose points, not because she cared Hermione was hurt.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 10, 2004 3:26 pm (#108 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Sarah, if she was enjoying the fruits of her labor, why didn't she at least smirk? That would certainly be a valid trigger pull.

++++

Webster's Nineth New Collegiate Dictionary: beady adj 1a: resembling beads b: small, round, and shiny with interest or greed (~ eyes) 2: marked by bubbles or beads (~ liquor)

I think "shiny with interest" is the best fit here, don't you?

++++

Tomoé, They only have CoMC and Potions with the Slytherins. I don't recall her giving Hermione a hard time in CoMC, but it has never stopped Draco from giving Harry a hard time. But once again, why not at least a smirk?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 4:49 pm (#109 of 496)

Let it snow!
Why didn't Draco smirk?

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MTW - Jun 10, 2004 8:08 pm (#110 of 496)

There no reason for Patsy to think that Hermione would get a 'poison pen' letter because of the story. She was hoping to hear that Hermione was lock up with Moaning Myrtle crying her eyes out about the story. When she heard about Hospital Patsy curiousity would be at her Highest level to find out why.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 10, 2004 9:45 pm (#111 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
S. E. Jones - Why didn't Draco smirk?

Well, according to so many Fanfics, he's madly in love with her. So he wouldn't, would he?

Most likely because Hermione's plight hadn't registered with him.

MTW - When she heard about Hospital Patsy curiousity would be at her Highest level to find out why.

Exactly. So why didn't she either zing Hermione or smirk at her discomfort?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 10, 2004 11:02 pm (#112 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
When Hermione doesn't show up for Herbology, Pansy taunts Harry about where his girl friend is. This happens after class, when no teacher is present. When Pansy hears about Hermione being in the hospital wing, she doesn't zing Hermione because Hermione is not there. She(Pansy) is eavesdropping on a conversation between Hargid, Ron, and Harry. When Hermione does finally show up, Pansy watches her beadily, or with interest or greed. I don't think watching with interest or greed sheds a positive light on Pansy. She probably doesn't speak only because a teacher is present.

The next time Pansy speaks, unless I missed a quote somewhere, is almost 300 pages into OotP, when she, much to the amusement of Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, makes fun of Angelina Johnson's hairstyle.

I don't think JKR is doing anything more with Pansy then making her the female equivalent of Draco.

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Catherine - Jun 11, 2004 5:17 am (#113 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Is it possible that Pansy could have gotten in trouble for that interview? We saws in the Pensieve that Bertha Jorkins got called to Dumbldore's office because she was nosy and spied on someone and teased him about kissing Florence.

According to Sirius, Bertha "never knew when to keep her mouth shut." Pansy usually doesn't show much tact, either. So maybe, just maybe, Pansy, like Bertha, got called on the carpet. Maybe that's why she didn't say anything.

I like the idea of Pansy getting into trouble for what's she's done, but there's no evidence for it. After all, Draco goes on to give Rita ammunition for the next article about Harry being "disturbed and dangerous."

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Tomoé - Jun 11, 2004 10:14 am (#114 of 496)

Back in business
Thanks for replacing the quote in its context nimrod.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 11, 2004 10:51 am (#115 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 10:57 am
nimrod 2000 - I don't think JKR is doing anything more with Pansy then making her the female equivalent of Draco.

If that be the case, then where's the pay-off for this scene? In all cases that I can think of (Norbert, Potions after Buckbeak to name just two), when Draco is being intensely interested in the trio, he does something about it.

Pansy is shown being intensely interested in Hermione's plight. She sees her with heavily bandaged hands and looking miserable. In plain English, Hermione is wearing a big bulls-eye for anyone who wants to give her a hard time. We know Pansy is taking all of this in. Rowling spends the entire scene laying that foundation. So why doesn't Pansy shoot at that big bulls-eye? If she doesn't taunt Hermione then, then why not later. If not later, then she could have at least smirked, looked smug, glanced slyly at her Slytherin friends, walked off looking happy and/or satisfied, something, anything. But she doesn't.

If we assume that Rowling never puts anything in without a reason, then there is only one possible conclusion that fit the facts. Rowling is letting us see a (dare I say it) compassionate, possibly even remorseful side of Pansy. For all you Pansy-haters, I know this is a tough idea to swallow, but the text here supports it far better than anything else.

No, I am not preaching a H/P 'ship here, though I do support it. It was that support that led me to notice the curious way Rowling wrote this scene. But 'ship or no 'ship, this interesting little scene tends to support the notion that Pansy is not as bad as many people like to think.

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Padfoot - Jun 11, 2004 10:56 am (#116 of 496)

Or maybe, since the book sees just what Harry sees, Harry missed the smirk Pansy was giving Hermione.

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Chris. - Jun 11, 2004 11:00 am (#117 of 496)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
But wouldn't have Hermione told Ron and Harry, if she did smirk?

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 11, 2004 11:02 am (#118 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 11:04 am
Or maybe Harry missed the tearful Pansy who came up to Hermione in the girl's loo later that day and pled forgiveness for what she had done.

EDIT: We have to deal with what is written.

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Tomoé - Jun 11, 2004 11:59 am (#119 of 496)

Back in business
Marcus, could you please post your entire collection of quotes concerning Pansy? That would be appreciated.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 11, 2004 1:15 pm (#120 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
I think that the reason Pansy doesn't, as Marcus put it, shoot at that big bulls-eye on Hermione's back is because Hagrid is not only present, but speaking to Hermione as she approaches. Pansy probably doesn't want to insult Hermione in front of a teacher, so instead stares at her "beadily," which to me suggests malice and not compassion. Pansy doesn't have a chance to do anything after class because the trio stays behind to help put the nifflers away.

Pansy is not in the rest of the book, so we don't know what she is up to, but as I mentioned before, when she finally appears in OotP, she is once again the rude, insulting Pansy that we have always known.

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Padfoot - Jun 11, 2004 1:25 pm (#121 of 496)

So does anyone here really think Pansy will reform? (Besides Marcus)

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Catherine - Jun 11, 2004 2:06 pm (#122 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I rather picture Pansy as a Narcissa in the making...blond, nose upturned like she smells something unpleasant, married to a rude Slytherin with the last name of Malfoy....I guess that means I'll answer Padfoot's question as "NO!"

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Chris. - Jun 11, 2004 2:15 pm (#123 of 496)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
But is Narcissa as bad as she is made out? Her expression when she is in the Top Box may have been because she is being associated with the "snobs" of the Wizarding Community.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 11, 2004 2:34 pm (#124 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 2:40 pm
Padfoot - So does anyone here really think Pansy will reform? (Besides Marcus)

So does anyone here completely rule out the possibility that Pansy will reform? (Besides Padfoot) People do like a little wiggle room, Padfoot. :-)

Nimrod, you do make a good point. My biggest problem with it is she could at least smirk in the presense of a teacher, or even just look smug or satisfied. That would constitute shooting at the bulls-eye. But she doesn't. Why does Rowling not provide closure here?

I will tell you what. You show me just one other place where we see a Slytherin showing intense interest in the trio's problems and Rowling not providing closure. No mocking, no smirking, no giggling, no insults, no egging on, no smug looks, nothing. I will then concede that this scene could just be one-of-those-things.

Tomoé, I would love to, but it would make quite a sizable post. Instead, here are the page numbers. They are from the American editions.

SS: 123, 148
CoS: none
PoA: 96, 116, 118, 123, 128
GoF: 297, 298, 299, 316, 413, 414, 484, 511, 513, 515, 542, 543, 544
OoP: 188, 197, 258, 361, 364, 401, 448, 449, 558, 609, 677, 713
The OoP list does not contain the reference where she gets the DA list for Umbridge. Catherine was kind enough to point that one out to me. It should be around page 615

Also, some of them do not mention her by name, but are mass-Slytherin references.

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Catherine - Jun 11, 2004 2:51 pm (#125 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I don't think that everyone in the top box is a snob. The Weasleys aren't snobs. The Bulgarian minister was playing a joke on Fudge, so he at least had a sense of humor.

We do know that Narcissa has stayed in line with the Black family expectations by marrying "appropriately." While I don't think that Narcissa has been portrayed to be like her sister Bellatrix, I don't see her as a really sympathetic character. At least, not yet. We know she loves Draco, and didn't want him to go to Durmstrang, so maybe I can be pleasantly surprised by Narcissa.

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Padfoot - Jun 11, 2004 3:23 pm (#126 of 496)

So does anyone here completely rule out the possibility that Pansy will reform? (Besides Padfoot) People do like a little wiggle room, Padfoot. :-) LOL. Ok, ok. I will admit there is a slight possibility that Pansy will reform. How's that?

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MrsGump - Jun 11, 2004 3:44 pm (#127 of 496)

When I read the scenes with Pansy and the bubbertuber pus, I've alway thought that Pansy sent that letter.

I hear the question about where Hermione is as sarcastic; the bubbertuber pus was collected during Herbology, so Pansy knows what it is, does, and has access to it; and the "beadily" is her trying to see just how much damage she's done. She's probably disappointed it only resulted in a minor incident, but can't really brag about it in front of anyone other than a Syltherine or get in trouble.

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Tomoé - Jun 11, 2004 3:50 pm (#128 of 496)

Back in business
I don't see Pansy being reform (I don't like that word, it sounds like she will become even better than DD). I could see her moving on the DD/Harry side, but still using her old methods, because people don't change both action and mind in a so short lap of time.

I don't see her getting better before the end of book six for sure.

Edit : Good point MrsGump.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 11, 2004 4:03 pm (#129 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 4:06 pm
Padfoot - I will admit there is a slight possibility that Pansy will reform. How's that?

Great. And I will admit that I am not 100% certain that she will. I will say that the more I study it, the more I am convinced of it, though. :-)

It is also possible that she won't reform. She will remain her normal horrible self whom we all know and love, but will refuse to go along with the Voldemort Slytherins.

Pansy could very well be the sort of person that doesn't mind inflicting mental pain, but draws the line at physical pain. She could be the Snape of her generation. She could still loath Harry and friends, but will refuse to do them any serious harm. There would be no reason to reform in this scenario.

EDIT: MrsGrump, Excellent thought. But it still comes back to why didn't Pansy at least look smug at Hermione's comfort? There is no closure.

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haymoni - Jun 11, 2004 4:08 pm (#130 of 496)

I can see it - most of my feelings stem from the fact that Voldemort came back and Lucius has been found out.

I haven't seen Pansy make any kind of prejudiced statements which makes me think that she wasn't raised the same way as Draco was. Oh, she's been insulting and mean, but not because someone is Muggle-born or a half-blood. She's rude because she is a snot.

If Pansy is going to change, I think it WILL be in Book 6 - she will disassociate herself with the Malfoys because Lucius is obviously a Death Eater.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 11, 2004 4:25 pm (#131 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 4:27 pm
I was wondering where you were, haymoni. :-)

My list of likely Pansy outcomes are as follows:

She will reform. This is the one I think most likely. It ties up so many thematic lines and explains all the curious writing Rowling has used with her. If you add a possible H/P 'ship to that, then it ties up nearly every thematic line and plot line in the book.
She will not reform, but she will break with Draco and refuse to go along with the Voldemort Slytherins. This satisfies a few threads and explains some of the curious writing.
She will not reform. She will support Draco all the way. Not likely at all. I have a hard time reconciling this with the way she is written.
Yes, definitely if she is going to reform, we will see her starting in book #6.

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Tomoé - Jun 11, 2004 5:06 pm (#132 of 496)

Back in business
If Pansy disassociate herself with the Malfoys because Lucius is obviously a Death Eater, she will be no better than the mudblood haters. Dropping the son because of the father's crimes is definitely not right. Draco's ways were fine to her for at least three years, it would be unfair to drop him for it now.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 11, 2004 7:48 pm (#133 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
I will tell you what. You show me just one other place where we see a Slytherin showing intense interest in the trio's problems and Rowling not providing closure. No mocking, no smirking, no giggling, no insults, no egging on, no smug looks, nothing. I will then concede that this scene could just be one-of-those-things. -Marcus

I can't think of anything offhand, but I'm about to read the whole series again. I'll be paying close attention to the behavior of Pansy in particular and the Slytherins in general. I will be fair, and look for evidence that supports your views, as well as mine. Who knows, I may be a convert when I get to the end.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 11, 2004 8:09 pm (#134 of 496)

I see Pansy as nothing more than a Bella in the making. I do not see her reforming. I do not see her as anything more than a sidekick to Draco the same way Bella is a sidekick to Voldie.

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Czarina II - Jun 11, 2004 10:20 pm (#135 of 496)

I agree with the idea of Pansy becoming a Narcissa character, although we know too little about Narcissa to really make that comparison. Bellatrix seems too evil to me -- I see Narcissa as more of a self-centred, superficial snob, not really evil. That's how I see Pansy, too. She really relishes the attention she gets from Rita Skeeter!

Message to Liz -- Pansy sounds like a good topic for the Vote thread.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 12, 2004 6:28 am (#136 of 496)

I think Marcus is reading the signals correctly about Pansy. "sprouting antlers" clinched it for me.

I do have a prejudice about wanting someone in the Slytherin house to do something other than being an evil wizard in the making.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 12, 2004 10:21 am (#137 of 496)

For those of you who think a nasty person is incapable of love think of Helga in "Hey Arnold" the cartoon on Nickelodian.(SP)

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Weeny Owl - Jun 12, 2004 11:22 am (#138 of 496)

I think there can be many Slytherins who aren't evil or who will become evil.

I also think nasty people definitely have the capacity to love.

There are many Slytherins we haven't been exposed to yet, unfortunately, and I can see many current Slytherins and their parents not supporting Voldie.

I just can't see Pansy as anything other than the female equivalent of Draco. She may not be a Voldie supporter, but that doesn't mean she can't be just as evil as Bella or even Umbridge.

That may change with the next book. I would love to see her be something more than what she's been so far, but if she goes the same way as in the first five books, I don't see any hope for her.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 7:35 pm (#139 of 496)

Let it snow!
There are many Slytherins we haven't been exposed to yet, unfortunately, and I can see many current Slytherins and their parents not supporting Voldie.

Quite right, Weeny Owl. The Slytherin who I would most like to see get some exposure in the series is Theodore Nott, as it is unclear just which way he will go in terms of Voldie support (sure his dad's a DE, but he also got hurt following ol' Voldie's orders). And there is also the possibility of somone new coming into Slytherin, who the Trio might be more willing to take an interest in, who can introduce us to the House and the other (non-evil-ish) people in it. However, at the present, I just can't see Pansy being the Slytherin who slythers to the "other side". The "bully on the playground" has been put in Slytherin by JKR, unfortunately, and needs to be represented by both genders. JKR said during her Royal Albert Hall interview, "nearly all of you here knows a Draco Malfoy and girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson" which I think demonstrates my point quite well. However, I dont think all Slytherins are bullies, just that the bullies that our series has been given (Draco and Pansy) have been put, particularly, in Slytherin House. I can definately see other Slytherins moving over to Harry's side, or, at the very least, away from Voldemort's.

Royal Albert Hall interview:
Video: How do you decide what the baddies would be like?
JK Rowling: This is going to sound awful but I’ve met enough people I didn’t like in my life to have a fairly shrewd idea of what I want baddies to be like. I think from letters I get from people your age that nearly all of you here knows a Draco Malfoy and girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson. We all grow up with those sort of people and certainly as adults we’ve all have met people like Lucius Malfoy and some of the other characters.

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Czarina II - Jun 12, 2004 10:17 pm (#140 of 496)

The fact that Pansy and Draco are the only Slytherins we know is because they ARE bullies. Their House-mates are not bullies and have little use for Harry and company. They are two different groups entirely. At any school, different groups don't interact with each other. We have met Pansy because she annoys the Gryffindors. Tracey Davis and Daphne Greengrass don't have any use for them, so naturally, we know nothing about them except that they exist and are sorted into Slytherin. Just because Pansy is a recurring character doesn't mean she is necessarily important. She is just there, like Lavender and Parvati.

Sorry, I just REALLY don't like the idea of Pansy becoming important, especially for Harry. Now for Draco, on the other hand...

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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 12:14 am (#141 of 496)

Definitely a good point about Nott, Sarah. I hope he breaks away from the usual Slytherin interaction.

I agree with you, Czarina, about Draco and Pansy. I think they're two peas in a pod.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 13, 2004 11:02 am (#142 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 11:03 am
Some of you guys sound like Yoda, "Once down the path to the dark side you go, forever will it guide your destiny."

Weeny Owl - I agree with you, Czarina, about Draco and Pansy. I think they're two peas in a pod.

Okay, Draco spent the entire book of OoP abusing his authority as prefect and as member of the I.S.. Kindly show me one, just one instance of Pansy abusing her authority. Since OoP is full of references to Pansy, most of which not very flattering, it should be no problem. Of course, remember that merely doing something we dislike does not constitute abuse of authority.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 11:28 am (#143 of 496)

It isn't just OotP, though... her personality has been formed in more than one book, and until she's written differently, I just can't see her as anything other than a female Draco.

Actual instances of abuse of authority may not have been stated in OotP, but with the tunnel-vision view we have from Harry and with all he was going through, he may not have been aware.

Maybe she didn't abuse her authority and maybe she did, but there are instances of where she is no different than in GoF.

He (Draco) had clearly just said something highly amusing, because Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy Parkinson and the rest continued to snigger heartily as they gathered around the trestle table and, judging by the way they all kept looking over at Harry, he was able to guess the subject of the joke without too much difficulty.

"I mean," said Malfoy, raising his voice a little more, his grey eyes glittering malevolently in Harry and Ron's direction, "if it's a question of influence with the Ministry, I don't think they've got much chance... from what my father says, they've been looking for an excuse to sack Arthur Weasley for years... and as for Potter... my father says it's a matter of time before the Ministry has him carted off to St Mungo's... apparently they've got a special ward for people whose brains have been addled by magic." Malfoy made a grotesque face, his mouth sagging open and his eyes rolling. Crabbe and Goyle gave their usual grunts of laughter; Pansy Parkinson shrieked with glee.

The only thing really worrying Harry was how much Ron was allowing the tactics of the Slytherin team to upset him before they even got on to the pitch. Harry, of course, had endured their snide comments for over four years, so whispers of, "Hey, Potty, I heard Warrington's sworn to knock you off your broom on Saturday," far from chilling his blood, made him laugh. "Warrington's aim's so pathetic I'd be more worried if he was aiming for the person next to me," he retorted, which made Ron and Hermione laugh and wiped the smirk off Pansy Parkinson's face.

Looking down, Harry saw the pug-faced Pansy Parkinson right at the front of the stands, her back to the pitch as she conducted the Slytherin supporters who were roaring: "THAT'S WHY SLYTHERINS ALL SING WEASLEY IS OUR KING."

Umbridge did not answer; she finished writing her last note, then looked up at Hagrid and said, again very loudly and slowly, "Please continue teaching as usual. I am going to walk," she mimed walking (Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson were having silent fits of laughter).

Pansy is sniggering (probably about Harry), shrieking with glee (over Arthur and Harry), smirking (over Ron and Quidditch until the smirk is wiped off her face), and making fun of Ron and Hagrid. Abuse of authority or not, Pansy is still the same vindictive and nasty person she's been portrayed so far, and I don't see anything about her that indicates a change of heart.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 13, 2004 12:30 pm (#144 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 12:33 pm
I do not deny that when we see Pansy in OoP, she is no different than in other books. She is still giving Harry and his friends a hard time. However, there are two interesting facts.

One, she doesn't abuse her authority. You yourself said that she and Draco are two peas in a pod. Yet we seldom see Draco not abusing his authority, and we never see Pansy when she is -- and this in a book where she is continually referenced as being mean and nasty.

Two, we never see her at all after the Quibbler article comes out. She is mentioned by others, but she is never "on-stage". Even in the showdown in Umbridge's office where the I.S. was in force, Pansy is nowhere to be seen.

Umbridge supposedly sent her into the come-and-go room to gather evidence returning with the DA list. Umbridge also told Draco to send her into the girl's bathrooms looking for escaping DA members. And she was mentioned as having antlers on her head, which amused Hermione to no end. Finally, she is mentioned with the Patil twins and Harry as the group going in for their Charms' practical OWL. But never do we actually see her after that article.

So we have her not abusing her authority, not helping the I.S. in Umbridge's office, and not appearing "on-stage" after the Quibbler article. This in a book where her peapod-mate is doing them right and left.

Does not any of this strike you as odd? Yes, it all could be a coincidence. However there are an awful lot of coincidences adding up from the five books. The bubotuber pus letter scene in GoF is but one example. I can't comfortably dismiss them all as chance. Rowling is too clever of a writer for that.

Assuming Rowling is doing it deliberately, what insights into Pansy's character do those "coincidences" give us?

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Maollelujah - Jun 13, 2004 1:19 pm (#145 of 496)

Maybe it will happen, but right now there is nothing to support that Pansy is going to 'Snape' to the good side. Plus I don't think that lack of seeing Pansy in the story for a long time or being a bully lessens that when we do see her she is only a bully.

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Dumbledore - Jun 13, 2004 1:48 pm (#146 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Prefect Marcus, even though we haven't explicitly seen Pansy do things that have been particularly "Draco-ish", doesn't mean that she hasn't in the books. Just because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they're not that there, just like we can't prove that they aren't there.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 3:25 pm (#147 of 496)

I'm not saying it's totally impossible for her to be a hidden light of the good side, but until she's written that way, I just can't see her changing.

Granted, there are tons of other girls who could be future Death Eaters or at least bad-guy sympathizers, but since we've already seen just how nasty Pansy can be, she seems to be headed in that direction.

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Dumbledore - Jun 13, 2004 3:57 pm (#148 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I agree, Weeny Owl.


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Ff3girl - Jun 13, 2004 8:39 pm (#149 of 496)

You know, I really liked Prefect Marcus' point about Pansy not doing anything nasty after the quibbler article and not being in the group of Slytherins who cornered the DA members and dragged them to Umbridge's office.

I have to say, before I was very adamant about Pansy being a complete snot. But now, I think I might be a little swayed...

However, I am still more learning toward Pansy being more like Draco, though... it seems like there are too many instances of happiness at other people's pain.

I guess you could say this message was a bit of a waste of space, because I can't make up my mind completely. 0_o

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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 10:48 pm (#150 of 496)

Let it snow!
But, did they corner the DA members or did they come upon the various DA members in different places? Wasn't Ron trying to lead Umbridge someplace or something and Ginny and Luna trying to distract people? Didn't Neville just jump in to help Ginny? What I'm saying is it might be a matter of coincidence that she just happened to be tormenting someone in another part of the castle at the time and so didn't take part in capturing the DA members who are later pulled into Umbridge's office....

As for the Quibbler article, why would she pick at them for that? If anything it would deflait her ego a little. Draco and his cronies don't even pick at them (though they wanted to start a fight over it, I'm sure, but couldn't admit to reading it, which was probably Pansy's problem as well). I mean, Harry had just outed Draco's dad, as well a few other Slytherin's, as a DE. Pansy was probably fit to be tied but couldn't admit she read it (as Umbridge had outlawed the thing) and so couldn't say anything about it at all....

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Pansy Parkinson Empty Pansy Parkinson (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:29 am

Loopy Lupin - Jun 14, 2004 6:52 am (#151 of 496)
The more I think about it, the more I'm intrigued by what JKR was doing with Pansy in GoF and OoP. Silence in the face of Hermione's pain from the buboterber pus is, true, not exactly great sympathy. Nevertheless, Marcus is quite right to point out that the absence of the zing is telling. She is back to her old self at the beginning of OoP, but remember that Harry had just "outed" several of her friends' parents as DE's and the entire WW considred him to be nuts. The Quibbler article stirred something in many wizards and witches and persuaded many of them to Harry's side. Its entirely possible that Pansy read the article and something clicked for her as well. She is a Slytherin, but unlike Draco's other closest friends, we don't have a "Parkinson" underneath a hood.

It also seems funny, the more I think about it, that while Hermione has no love lost for any of the Slytherin's she always has an insult for Pansy. She's a "complete cow" or "thicker than a concussed troll." Doth she protest to much?

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Weeny Owl - Jun 14, 2004 8:31 am (#152 of 496)

We don't have a "Parkinson" that we know of. Harry said something in GoF about being outnumbered thirty to one in the graveyard scene, so there are a lot more Death Eaters out there who haven't been named.

Even if her parents aren't Death Eaters that doesn't mean they're not Voldie sympathisers in the same way Mrs. Black was without actually being a Death Eater herself.

This theory has its possibilities, but other theories have their possibilities as well. With JKR there's really no way of knowing.

Who would have guessed that Scabbers wasn't just a rat? Who would have guessed that Mad-Eye Moody wasn't really Mad-Eye? Who would have thought Ginny opened the Chamber of Secrets?

Marcus has provided enough instances for it to be possible, but until Pansy is written differently, the stronger evidence seems to point to her staying as is or getting even worse.

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Kirsti Bane - Jun 14, 2004 8:41 am (#153 of 496)

Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 14, 2004 3:27 pm
she's been written as the every-school-has-one 'mean girl'. there's as much chance of that changing as there is of every-school-has-one 'swot' Hermione taking remedial potions.........

->Please refrain from using inappropriate language on this forum. The word you used is only appropriate when discussing a female dog.<- SE Jones

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Padfoot - Jun 14, 2004 9:53 am (#154 of 496)

Edited by Jun 14, 2004 9:53 am
I hope Pansy's parents are not Death Eaters. I would prefer some of the Slytherins (or their parents) to be free thinking and not all controlled (working for) Voldy. Whether Pansy changes or not, I hope she isn't another Crabbe/Goyle/Malfoy female clone. I'm all for those interesting twists JKR throws in her books. So if she reforms a character, it will be very interesting. I've known many Pansy Parkinsons in my life. Haven't seen any of them change yet. However JKR lets her characters develop and go through changes during turmoil that is different from what the average muggle goes through. I'll take a wait and see approach to Pansy.


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Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 11:52 am (#155 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 14, 2004 11:52 am
Loopy Lupin - It also seems funny, the more I think about it, that while Hermione has no love lost for any of the Slytherin's she always has an insult for Pansy. She's a "complete cow" or "thicker than a concussed troll." Doth she protest to much?

I noticed that, too. She also took special delight in the antlers. Very interesting. Very interesting indeed. :-)

Weeny Owl - This theory has its possibilities, but other theories have their possibilities as well. With JKR there's really no way of knowing.

On that you'll certainly not get an argument from me. I would love to hear some of those theories. Perhaps you have one that explains all that we know of Pansy and all that we've noticed about her better than this one. Let's hear it.

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Tomoé - Jun 14, 2004 3:14 pm (#156 of 496)

Back in business
Hermione over-reacted to Fleur too, is she jealous of Pansy's pureblood and many friends among girls as she was jealous of Fleur's beauty (or maybe of Fleur's effect on Ron ^_~).

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Chemyst - Jun 14, 2004 3:52 pm (#157 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I don't see "that the absence of the zing is telling." If I'm generous, I'll admit it is mildly curious. But to say Pansy not making a comment is "telling" is to make a lot of something that is not there. To quote Prefect Marcus in #118, "We have to deal with what is written." There are several reasons Pansy may refrain from zinging. First off, she didn't refrain completely. Secondly, there is some indication she didn't know enough. And thirdly, there were distractions.

Before I give the page numbers for these, let me set the scene: Rita wrote at least four articles during the GOF year that wove into Harry's story. Three were in the Daily Prophet but the reference in post #91 which began this discussion was in Witch Weekly titled "Harry Potter's Secret Heartache" (Page 511, Scholastic paperback) Between the time Pansy first literally throws it in Hermione's face and the time Hermione gets the bubotuber pus letter, there are 30 pages of story covering Karkaroff trying to speak to Snape, a visit to Padfoot, and Winky's drinking. A weekend of other activities is significant only because Pansy, (as well as HRH & the readers,) has begun to mentally move on.

At Monday morning's Herbology class Pansy is giggling with the gang and calls out to Harry, "Potter, have you split up with your girlfriend? Why was she so upset at breakfast?" (542) "Harry ignored her, he didn't want to give her the satisfaction of knowing how much trouble the Witch Weekly article had caused." So Pansy is still clueless at this point. Obviously she can't easily make a snide remark about something she doesn't know. During CoMC she was still curious, hence the "beadily" but was distracted by nifflers going for her wrist watch. (544) It was not until the bell rang and the rest of the class was headed back to the castle that Hagrid asked, "What yeh done ter your hands..." Pansy still misses getting the details.

That explains that incident. So why don't we see Pansy being the viper-mouth quite as much during the Umbridge reign of OotP? As a Slytherin who always looks out for herself, she may well have decided it is time to distance herself from Draco. Maybe Mike Miller #89 will get his wish of a public dumping.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 4:17 pm (#158 of 496)

Let it snow!
I don't understand why you assume Pansy is clueless after the article came out. If Harry is trying to keep from "[giving] her the satisfaction of knowing how much trouble the Witch Weekly article had caused" then she must've known about the article or she wouldn't have had any satisfaction in a response. It's only logical. She was making the comment because she knew what was wrong with Hermione and was trying to get a rise out of Harry. He was ignoring her because she knew and would get satisfaction from hearing just how bad it had been.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 4:28 pm (#159 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"

The Case of the Disappearing Pansy

During my Pansy research I noted that she is seldom referenced when she is not on-stage. In SS, her name is mentioned as being sorted. In GoF, Rita Skeeter quotes her in her anti-Hermione article. And at the very start of OoP, Hermione reacts insultingly when she learns that Pansy made prefect. All other references show her there in person. So out of thirty references in the first four and a half books, she is only missing for three of them.

This pattern makes an abrupt change in OoP after she gave Cho and Harry a hard time at Valentine's day. From then to the end of the book, she is mentioned four times, and she is off stage for all four of them. She went from being seen 90% of the time to 0% of the time. That alone is interesting. It gets even more puzzling when one starts looking closer at the references.

When Marietta turned traitor to DA, Harry is the last to leave the room. He did not get far before Draco tripped him. Umbridge came upon the scene almost immediately. (She had to. Draco is no match for Harry anymore.) She tells Draco to have Parkinson look in the girls' lavoratories for escaping DA members. She then hauls Harry to Dumbledore's office where she produces the DA list that she said Parkinson had ran into the room of requirement and got for her. She knew exactly what she had after she had perused the list.

One wonders where she found the time to do all this. The come-and-go room disappears almost immediately when exited. Umbridge and Parkinson had to have arrived within seconds after Harry left. They had to find the time for Pansy to run in, spot the list, snatch it, run out, hand list to Umbridge, and Umbridge peruse it seeing Harry's name on it. They had to do this within a second or two because Umbridge has to run to where Draco had just tripped Harry.

Question: Why wasn't Pansy there with Umbridge at the tripping site? If Rowling was trying to build pressure on Harry (and the reader), would not seeing two students working against him be more frightening than just one. But Rowling did not do it that way. Instead, she relies upon the weaker off-stage approach. It also makes little sense for Draco to spend his time searching for Pansy while he had DA members to catch.

There is another instance in OoP that is even more puzzling. Why was Pansy not in Umbridge's office for the final showdown? Rowling does make a point of showing brawny Slytherins, but Draco was there. Why not Pansy? They were the leaders. Where was she?

The following events occurred between the Valentine's Day slam and the Draco trip:
Gryffindor loses to Hufflepuff by 10 points.
The Quibbler article gets published.
Umbridge tries to throw Trelawney out of the castle.
Firenze is hired to teach Divination.
Would any of these events cause Rowling to change the manner in which she writes about Pansy? What happened? What would explain the sudden drop from 90% on-stage references to 0%?

Any statistian will tell you that twenty-seven out of thirty versus zero out of four (five if you include Umbridge's office) is a statistically valid anomaly. So how would you explain it?

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Chemyst - Jun 14, 2004 4:28 pm (#160 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Sarah, ...Of course Pansy knew about the article, she was the one who threw the magazine at Hermione in the first place. The reason she did not make an acid comment to Hermione during CoMC is because she was clueless as to exactly why Hermione at was so upset at breakfast. She had seen that something was wrong, but didn't know the whats, hows, and whys.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 4:42 pm (#161 of 496)

Let it snow!
I think she did know why Hermione was upset at breakfast, Chemyst. I think she was asking Harry just to get a rise out of him.... That's why he had to ignore her to keep from giving her the satisfaction of knowing just how bad the situation had gotten....

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 4:45 pm (#162 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Sarah,

That would explain why she felt she didn't need to zing Hermione.

One quick aside -- Who says she is completely clueless? She was the one that brought Hermione's attention to the article. She was there in Potions when Snape read it out loud. Hermione was sent to her cauldron when Snape broke up the trio. She knows all about it.

Nonetheless, your explanation would work except for the same old problems. Where are the adverbs? Why isn't she "snidely" asking Harry about Hermione. Why isn't she smirking as she listens to Ron tell Hagrid about Hermione. Why is there no look of satisfaction or smugness when she sees Hermione approach heavily bandaged and miserable? The only description we have of her actions is "beadily", which first meaning is "shiny with interest". Second meaning is "shiny with greed."

Does Pansy strike you as the sort of person to quietly enjoy her advantage? Would she gloat over someone without at least a smirk, sneer, or sly look?

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 4:53 pm (#163 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Too many postings as I was writing the Disappearance post.

Chemyst, first of all, the Gryffindors have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs, not the Slytherins. Pansy asks about Hermione after the first class and before the second, CoMC. She is either interested enough to remember after a whole class with no Hermione, or she almost loses interest because of a niffler. Which is it?

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Chemyst - Jun 14, 2004 5:18 pm (#164 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm sorry if the "clueless" wasn't clear. Pansy was clueless only in regard to trying to interpret what she saw at breakfast. She saw Hermione was upset but did not have a clue as to why.

At the very end of herbology, as Harry and Ron left the greenhouse, they saw Draco & Co. on the steps. Pansy is behind them. She taunts Harry at that time. They proceed to CoMC class where she maintans interest & curiosity about Hermione, but cannot act on it since she must concentrate on the niffler that leaps up and trys to bite. The adverb that is used shows she is interested in finding out what happened. She isn't smirking because all Ron said to Hagrid was that he'd tell him later. There is no look of satisfaction about the bandages because she is still clueless as to the reason Hermione was injured. I fully expect Pansy to gloat once she finds out the facts, but as of the end of class, she still did not know what the facts were. So, alas, we get only eyes shining with interest and not filled with glee.

(This is stupid. I should spend my time more wisely.)

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 6:44 pm (#165 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Does the text say Pansy taunted Harry? I must have missed that.

Also, I could have sworn the text says that Ron told Hagrid Hermione had to go to the Hospital.

But never mind all that. Where is the pay off? You have Rowling doing a set-up that just sort of peeters out with no real closure. No smirk, no knowing smile, no nasty crack, nothing. Just a beady-eyed stare at Hermione. As I asked several posts ago, kindly show me another similar instance anywhere in the series. I've looked and I can't find one. Can you?

If you can't, then it must be admitted that Rowling changed her style for this little scene. Since it is a truism that Rowling never does anything without a reason, then the question is why? What is she trying to do here?

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Weeny Owl - Jun 14, 2004 8:16 pm (#166 of 496)

Regardless of what happened or didn't in GoF, Pansy is still the same nasty person we've seen all along. Her not making a comment in one scene doesn't seem that important considering her behavior in the next book.

There are plenty of adjectives used to describe her and her nastiness in OotP.

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Chemyst - Jun 15, 2004 4:49 am (#167 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Marcus, you are right that Ron tells Hagrid that Hermione had gone to the hospital wing. But Harry, fully aware of Pansy's attempt to hear more, quickly cuts in and says they'd explain later. I think the payoff here is that Harry gets to frustrate Pansy's quest for gossipy details. In a very small way, Harry gets to control something Pansy wants- information. Class ends and Pansy returns to the castle still confused about what really happened to Hermione. Harry has succeeded in thwarting it. And now that I'm typing this, I see that the bulk of OotP had a similar theme: Voldemort wanted information and Harry, with far less than perfect success, still manages to thwart the Dark Lord from hearing the entire prophecy. That would be "another similar instance in the series" where Rowling does not provide complete closure. The fifth book ends and Voldemort leaves the atrium still confused about what really was contained in the prophecy.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 15, 2004 9:31 am (#168 of 496)

When Pansy gets to the Room of Requirement all she has to do is wish to quickly find some incriminating evidence against Harry. The room provides the rest. Its not just Pansy's wish but that of Umbridge, Draco, and others. This is the only point where I have to disagree with Marcus. Pansy was there. She was doing something that Umbridge considered a help.

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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 9:46 am (#169 of 496)

Back in business
Prefect Marcus -> in OoP after she gave Cho and Harry a hard time at Valentine's day. From then to the end of the book, she is mentioned four times, and she is off stage for all four of them. She went from being seen 90% of the time to 0% of the time. That alone is interesting. It gets even more puzzling when one starts looking closer at the references.

First, she's not there 90% of the time before the Valentine's day, she's there 7 chapters on a possibility of 13, that's 54% in my book. After the Valentine's day, she in 3 chapters on a possibility of 7, 43%, not very different if you ask me.

Let's try to put that fact in the whole context of Pansy's mentions.

PS -> She appear twice, for the first time in the Sorting, for the second time, she tease Parvati because she stand up for Neville who just made a fool of himself.

PoA -> She laugh at Harry as the whole school wonder why Harry Potter, victor of You-Know-Who, fainted because of the Demetors, they are bad, but not that bad. Then, she follow the trend of the CoMC, applause and cheer at the right time. Malfoy get hurt and she show him support.

GoF -> We don't see her before Harry become one of the Hogwarts champions, and vanish after Harry impress the whole school with the dragon. She reappear for the Yule ball and re-vanish. She finally come back with the article about Hermione and disappear after the CoMC lesson.

OoP -> Harry's reputation is at the lowest of the low as OoP begin and stay like that until the Quibbler article. Until then, Pansy make fun of Harry. After the Quibbler, she only stay in the background because she's in Umbridge Inquisitorial Squad and she's around Potter in alphabetical order, she could have disappear like Zacharias when the traitor was revealed.

In conclusion, Pansy only show up when someone's reputation is low and it's safe to strike. If the Slytherins believe Draco, Vincent and Gregory must be estranged because the mood of the moment is against the DE, she will be the first to make fun of them, be sure of that.

The only other mentions are hints or reminders, like when she took care of Draco in PoA so we weren't surprised to see her with Malfoy for the Yule Ball. She was mentioned around the unicorn so we remember she's in CoMC before the Rita's article came out. We knew her enough by OoP so we weren't surprised to heard she was prefect.

About the beadily eyes in the CoMC lesson when Hermione came with her hand heavily bandaged, I think she was aware of the letters, but didn't knew there was Bubotuber pus in one of them. All she saw was Hermione running from the table at breakfast, maybe she didn't had a good glimpse at her hands then. She likely thought Hermione went to cry in a toilet of something. When she showed up in the CoMC lesson with her hand heavily bandaged, she was trying to understand what happen exactly, Hermione could had asked Madam Pomfrey for a Calming Draught or something like that. When another occasion came, the "persecute Hermione" mood was already over.

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Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 10:25 am (#170 of 496)

Back in business
As I reread the context of Pansy's first and only line in PS, I realize she was already sticking up for Draco. I know all of you already put two and two together, I fell so helpless without my PS copy -_- . Anyway here's the partial quote filled up with what I read in my sister-in-law's French copy.

Draco said something nasty about Neville
‘Shut up, Malfoy,’ snapped Parvati Patil.
‘Ooh, sticking up for Longbottom?’ said Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced Slytherin girl. ‘Never thought you’d like fat little cry babies, Parvati.’ Then Draco spot the remembrall (PS ch.9 p.110)

She likely already had a crush on Draco as she take Malfoy's defence in accusing Parvati to had a crush on Neville because she took his defence. I mean 11 years old don't use to be very subtle.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 19, 2004 2:20 pm (#171 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 19, 2004 2:20 pm
She likely already had a crush on Draco as she take Malfoy's defence in accusing Parvati to had a crush on Neville because she took his defence. I mean 11 years old don't use to be very subtle.

Are you saying that if girl 'A' sticks up for boy 'B', this shows that girl 'A' likely has a crush on boy 'B'? Isn't that a bit simplistic?

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Chemyst - Jun 19, 2004 6:49 pm (#172 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Isn't that a bit simplistic?

Boys! sheesh! I do hope Hermione writes that book for Ron so you guys will be able to understand this stuff. Even though it usually is just that simple, you never, ever state it that way. The proper form is to sigh slightly and say, "It's complicated."

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Catherine - Jun 20, 2004 6:20 pm (#173 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Chemyst,

Can we add eyelash batting and using a fan to the sigh and "It's complicated?"

Or is that too "subtle" for Pansy?

Cheers!

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 21, 2004 5:59 am (#174 of 496)

Are you saying that if girl 'A' sticks up for boy 'B', this shows that girl 'A' likely has a crush on boy 'B'? Isn't that a bit simplistic?-- Prefect Marcus

I think Tomoe said that it was "likely" that she already had a crush on Draco, and I think she is quite right. Eleven-year-olds are not notorious for their depth and complexity, and from my experience are not very far beyond the stage where a good hair pull or a swift kick is the proper way to show a girl (and sometimes a boy) that you like them. Girl A's sticking up for Boy B is an open invitation to be teased by others that she likes Boy B; she would tend not to care about such teasing if she did indeed fancy Boy B.

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 2:37 pm (#175 of 496)

Back in business
Marcus -> Are you saying that if girl 'A' sticks up for boy 'B', this shows that girl 'A' likely has a crush on boy 'B'?

Not exactly, it's a little more complex than that (more JKRowling-ish), but I poorly phrased my last post. I'm sorry.

I meant to say that :

Boy 'A' tease boy 'B'
Girl 'B' stick up for boy 'B'
Girl 'A', who have a crush for boy 'A', stick up for boy 'A' by accusing girl 'B' to stink for boy 'B' because she, girl 'B', have a crush on boy 'B'.

It's the very fact that Pansy accuse Parvati to stick up to Neville because of a crush that make me believe Pansy was projecting her own "sticking up for her crush" feeling on Parvati.

Pansy's crush was tell to shut up, Pansy felt the urge to stick for him and did it so spontanously she project her own feeling on Parvati and tell her she had a crush on Neville.

I hope I made my point more easy to understand this time.

Edit : Thanks Chymist and Loopy Lupin for sticking up for me. Wait a minute! Should I suppose ... no, I'm reading too far this time ^_~

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 21, 2004 2:52 pm (#176 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
How about this? Draco and Pansy are two Slytherin characters. Parvati and Neville are two Gryffindor characters. They stick up for their fellow house-members out of loyalty for their house.

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 3:26 pm (#177 of 496)

Back in business
Yeah, that's what I thought until a week ago, but girl 'A' sticks up for boy 'B', shows that girl 'A' likely has a crush on boy 'B' is exactly what Pansy said to Parvati. It made me wonder.

Plus, that line is the real introduction to Pansy (as I don't count "... 'Parkinson' ..." as a proper introduction ^_~), her only line in the two first books. She tease two Gryffindors and stick up for Draco.

When she come back in PoA, she tease Harry and stick up for Draco. In GoF she tease Harry and Hermione and is Draco's dance partner. In OoP, she's Slytherin prefect with Draco and tease Harry.

If you read the line as Pansy having a crush on Draco, that summarize Pansy's role for the four books to come. She could change in the last two books, of course, even if I'm not very keen on this idea.

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Chemyst - Jun 21, 2004 8:50 pm (#178 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Yes, as Tomoé said, it's the very fact that Pansy accused Parvati of having a crush because she stuck up for Neville that makes me believe Pansy was projecting her own "sticking up for her crush" feelings onto Parvati. When Parvati told Draco to shut up, Pansy felt a spontaneous urge to stick up for him because she was projecting her own feelings about Draco. She acted on the urge and accused Parvati of having a crush on Neville. It goes beyond simple house loyalty.

(sigh, and one bat of the eyelashes) See? It's complicated.

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 9:19 pm (#179 of 496)

Back in business
Your phrasing was much better than mine Chemyst. ^_^

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 22, 2004 12:23 pm (#180 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Some people are just hopeless romantics. ;-D

(Well I guess it's better than cold-hearted theorists like me.)

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Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 1:10 pm (#181 of 496)

Back in business
Don't try to weasel your way out Marcus, your are as hopelessly romantic as we are. ^_^

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Catherine - Jun 22, 2004 1:13 pm (#182 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I second what Tomoe said about not "weaseling out" and would like to add that we've "ferreted" out the truth that you're an old softy! Smile

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 22, 2004 1:30 pm (#183 of 496)

I second what Tomoe said about not "weaseling out" and would like to add that we've "ferreted" out the truth that you're an old softy! Smile -- Catherine Allen

I third that. Motion passed. Marcus is a softie.

And what's more, Marcus is determined to find redemption where most wouldn't bother to look. Which character is that that loves to give second chances?....Smile

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Catherine - Jun 22, 2004 3:14 pm (#184 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Lupin, do you mean... Dumbledore??? Can we then conclude that Marcus has been, in fact, the Giant Squid all along? Talk about undercover and deep, dark secrets! Never mind being a romantic and a softy! No wonder he can post so fast--he has tentacles all over the Forum!

Back to good old Pansy, about whom I will only add that I think that she is not the Giant Squid, and not a hopeless romantic, and not a softy.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 22, 2004 4:25 pm (#185 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Guys, I hate to disappoint you, but it is the cold-hearted theorist in me who is convinced that Pansy will reform. I try to go by Occam's Razor, and the simplest solution is if she does. Believing Pansy is reformable leaves one with far fewer things to explain away than believing her incorrigible.

It also beautifully ties together so many story threads.

I wish Book #6 would hurry and get here!

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Catherine - Jun 22, 2004 4:32 pm (#186 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Oops! We're back to dueling Pansy posts, Marcus, now that you've tried to renounce your soft Squid side:-)

Calimari, anyone?? ANYONE???

More seriously, I believe that Occam's Razor would, at this point, support the theory that Pansy is an annoying Slytherin, Hermione's "Draco" counterpart, and in general an unattractive gossip who likes to cause trouble.

But, like I promised a while ago, if she reforms, my next Shih-Tzu is a "Pansy!"

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Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 11:00 pm (#187 of 496)

Back in business
I second that Catherine, that Occam's Razor would support the theory that Pansy is an annoying Slytherin.

What do you mean by Pansy will reform? Do you mean she will drop Draco? She will become DA member? She'll stop to be nasty?

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Weeny Owl - Jun 22, 2004 11:42 pm (#188 of 496)

I don't think there would be anything simple about Pansy reforming.

For one thing, while all Slytherins aren't evil, there are at least four sons of known Death Eaters in Slytherin, and while we know nothing about Nott, and Crabbe and Goyle never speak, we do know just how nasty and vindictive Draco is.

Pansy would have to have the courage of a Gryffindor to start being anything other than what she is because if she stopped her nastiness toward Harry & Company or Hagrid or even Dumbledore, Draco would probably hex her until the cows came home. I just can't see her doing anything to upset her precious ferret.

Her remaining as she is is really the simplest explanation for Pansy's future behavior.

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Padfoot - Jun 23, 2004 11:00 am (#189 of 496)

I just can't see her doing anything to upset her precious ferret. Same here.

If Pansy does reform, I will believe in all of Marcus' theories from there on out. No matter how outlandish they may be.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 23, 2004 12:12 pm (#190 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 23, 2004 12:16 pm
Padfoot - If Pansy does reform, I will believe in all of Marcus' theories from there on out. No matter how outlandish they may be.

Don't you DARE, Padfoot! I come here to have my theories knocked around. That's how flaws are discovered.

As for Occam's Razor, it would be simpler for the future if Pansy doesn't reform, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about explaining all the many "clues" (for lack of a better word) that have to be accounted for. One or two of them can easily be explained as "just one of those things," but all of them? Allow me to recapitulate:

Pansy is one of three Slytherins that have voices, and the only Slytherin girl. Only she, Draco, and Marcus Flint are quoted saying anything, and Marcus doesn't say much. Crabbe, Goyle, Millicent, Monteque, and others are never quoted.
Harry is surprisingly neutral in his feelings towards her. He has no qualms in thinking ill of Draco, Goyle, Crabbe, Millicent, and others; but he is reticent in thinking ill of her, even when he is the target of her attacks. The narrator might call her 'pug-faced' and 'hard-faced', but he doesn't. The only instance I could find where it is Harry and not the narrator thinking less of her is when he didn't want to give her the satisfaction of knowing Rita's article had caused Hermione physical duress from the Bubotuber pus.
She was singled out as the only Slytherin that burst into tears and ran to see how Draco was after he got clawed by Buckbeak.
Draco has been shown manipulating her feelings. She is unique with that.
She is shown wearing very feminine dress robes (very frilly pale pink) at the Yule Ball while Draco is wearing severe black.
She didn't 'bite' after the Bubotuber pus letter. This is again unique where Rowling set up a Slytherin bite, but doesn't deliver.
Her authority exactly parallels Draco's through-out OoP, yet never do we see her abusing it. She is one mean, nasty, little snot in that book, yet she doesn't once abuse her authority.
She isn't in Umbridge's office for the final showdown. Almost all the other Slytherins are there, but she isn't.
She disappears from the screen after the Quibbler article. She is mentioned but never seen from then on out. She goes from a 90% on-screen rate to 0%. This includes her no-show in Umbridge's office.
Those are the solid clues. There are other questions needing answering
Where are the good Slytherins? How likely is it that in a series where Prejudice is a major theme that there is not one good Slytherin?
Why did the Sorting Hat stress the fact that Harry would have done well in Slytherin House? It even repeated it for emphasis in CoS. If only evil people do well in Slytherin House, why would the hat be so insistent?
The last few books, beginning with GoF, have had the "Re-uniting of the Houses" as a theme. The Sorting Hat stated it in its OoP song. So far three of the houses are uniting. What about the fourth house? What about Salizar Slytherin's and Godric Gryffindor's original close friendship?
Was Pansy's bout with antlers foreshadowing? Why did Rowling chose antlers instead of horns?
Now, to me it is far easier to explain all this by simply stating that Pansy is meant to reform in some way. Joining D.A., perhaps? Maybe leading an anti-Voldemort faction in Slytherin? Becoming Harry's 'ship, even? At the very least, she is going to start being nicer to Harry and his friends.

So when in book #6 coming out?

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Padfoot - Jun 23, 2004 12:41 pm (#191 of 496)

She is shown wearing very feminine dress robes (very frilly pale pink) at the Yule Ball while Draco is wearing severe black.

I am not sure what kind of "clue" this is? Umbridge wears frilly pink too and was not redeemed.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 23, 2004 12:57 pm (#192 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
The point I am making is that the simpliest answer to all of the clues is that Pansy will reform. Some of them are more easily explain away than others, but that is not the point. It is the pattern that is important, not the individual clues themselves.

What I am looking for is not a separate theory for each and every clue, but a single unified theory that explains them all. If it isn't Pansy reforming then what?

BTW, when Harry sees Umbridge wearing frilly pink, what was his reaction? What was Harry's reaction to seeing Pansy wearing frilly pink? Why the contrast?

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 23, 2004 1:49 pm (#193 of 496)

What I am looking for is not a separate theory . . . but a single unified theory that explains them all.-- Prefect Marcus

A "single unified theory"? Geez, you don't want much do you? LOL.

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Chemyst - Jun 23, 2004 2:27 pm (#194 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Marcus, would you please explain this a little more fully? Draco has been shown manipulating her feelings. She is unique with that. Perhaps an example?

And to all posters: My compliments & respect on the degree of civility you've been keeping on this thread. I've been on many other forums and have never seen such a wonderful example of people keeping their cool over a hot topic. I like it here!

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 23, 2004 2:51 pm (#195 of 496)

Me too; although we were getting kind of rowdy down in the POA discussion thread. Well, "rowdy" for this forum; still very civil.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 23, 2004 5:29 pm (#196 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 23, 2004 5:34 pm
Chemyst, From PoA, when Draco was clawed by Buckbeak.

Pansy asked ('simpered', whatever that means) if it hurt. Draco replied yes, but he winked at either Crabbe or Goyle as soon as her back was turned.

So, Pansy is showing feelings for Draco's supposed pain, and he is manipulating it for his own ends. I am not aware of any other instance of him doing that to anyone else.

Loopy Lupin, Well, all those clues are there. She had to have written them for a reason. The reason certainly could be that she is a terribly inconsistent writer, but I don't buy that for a second.

And yes, the level of civility here at the forum is most refreshing. It allows us to exchange ideas much better.
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Tomoé - Jun 24, 2004 12:30 am (#197 of 496)

Back in business
Thanks for the recapitulation Marcus.

So we are looking for a explanation on why :

Pansy speaks
Harry don't think nasty thing about her
She cry as Draco was injured
Draco manipulate her feeling
She wear feminine dress
She wasn't nasty to Hermy after came with her bandaged hand
She never abused her authority as prefect and Inquisitorial squad member
She isn't in Umbridge's office in chapter 32
She disappear after the Quibbler

My explanation is :

She is a nasty bullying girl who have a crush on nasty bullying Draco. She strike on people when they are the weakest, but as the bullying girl she is, she keep the fight on the verbal level.

Bullying girls usually prefer to use nasty comments over physical strength, so she have to speak.
She cry for Draco because she have a crush on him.
Draco manipulate her feeling because he's a bullying boy and he like to play with people's feeling, look how he like to play with Harry and Ron's feeling.
She wear feminine dress, because that's what bullying girls do.
She wasn't nasty to Hermy after she came with her bandaged hands because bullies don't like to lose control and things were getting out of hand. She wasn't worried about Hermione, she was worried about herself.
She didn't abuse her authority. When bullying, Pansy is much better that Draco to know when to stop. Therefore, she get away most of the time. Since Harry is not her #1 victim, like he is with Draco, we don't see her being nasty as often. However, she did get antlers, and she get them while trying to help Filch. Or so said the paragraph where that quote come from.
She isn't in Umbridge's office in chapter 32, because the bullying girl she is was no use there, muscle, that's what was needed.
She disappear after the Quibbler because Harry regained too much popularity to strike at him (see my post #169).

Only one point isn't explained by that theory :

Harry don't think nasty thing about her -> Does Harry thought or said something nasty about Millicent beside the half-hag thing? I don't have my book handly, CoS 11 and 12, OoP 32.

Edit : right Chemyst, we are all outstandinly civil in disagreement, that's what make it so interresting to argue. ^_^

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Chemyst - Jun 24, 2004 5:59 am (#198 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
If I wanted to "prove" that Pansy will reform by the end of book 7, I'd approach it from an entirely different tack, I'd use only a few of the clues that have been offered so far, and even those would be given a different interpretation. Pansy is such a nasty little witch that she is going to need a major psychological jolt before she would be ready to reform. From what little we know of Pansy, a falling out with Draco might cause enough hurt or anger to be a catalyst for reform. They both use each other, so the potential is there. If I wanted to show she will reform, I'd look for clues her present world will be shattered.

But so far, that hasn't happened. We've seen only that 'birds of a feather flock together.' The use of the verb simpered to describe how she asked Draco if it hurt much is interesting. Simper means she is being coy and questioning him with an affected smile, so she is trying to manipulate the situation too. That puppy-eyed look dogs give when they want something is often described as simpering. Add that to her pug face and it is quite a visual image we get for Pansy!

As the story stands now, Pansy has almost no motive to reform: she has her gang of girls for support, she's been given honor by being made prefect, she went to the Yule Ball with the guy she thinks is the coolest in her class (maybe she wore bright pink because she wanted everyone to see her with Draco and he wore black because he didn't want to be seen with a pug-face date!) Any perceived backing-off after The Quibbler article was published is more easily explained by Pansy's sense of self-preservation than by any deep desire to reform. She needs a motive. Marcus, or anyone, why do you think she might get one in Book Six?

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 24, 2004 7:35 am (#199 of 496)

Loopy Lupin, Well, all those clues are there. She had to have written them for a reason. The reason certainly could be that she is a terribly inconsistent writer, but I don't buy that for a second.-- Prefect Marcus

I don't doubt that. I actually believe your theory on this one. My last post was a feeble attempt at a science joke.

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Czarina II - Jun 24, 2004 11:08 am (#200 of 496)

I really don't think Pansy is that ugly. JKR doesn't want us to like her, so she describes her as "pug-faced." Pug dogs, like Persian cats, are quite cute. Besides, wasn't Pansy described as pug-faced in PS? She was eleven. Now she's fifteen or sixteen. My face changed dramatically between 11 and 16. Personally, I think Pansy reminds Harry of a pug dog only because she is usually scrunching her nose in disgust around him.

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Catherine - Jun 24, 2004 12:20 pm (#201 of 496)
Canon Seeker
I think Pansy reminds Harry of a pug dog only because she is usually scrunching her nose in disgust around him. Czarina II

Hmmm, this reminds me of Narcissa again!

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Padfoot - Jun 24, 2004 12:53 pm (#202 of 496)

Yes, I can totally picture Narcissa as an older version of Pansy.

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total hatred - Jun 29, 2004 1:38 am (#203 of 496)

I agree. I think Harry needs only the support of Pansy to get the Slytherins to his side. Pansy control of the Slytherin is far more powerful than Draco which I theorize is among the junior DE and the people that his father can buy

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 1:33 pm (#204 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Why do you think that Pansy's control of Slytherin is far more powerful than Draco's? The theory is interesting. I'd just like to know more about it.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 3:02 pm (#205 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
It certainly is an interesting theory. You may be right about Pansy's influence being greater than Draco's.

Slytherins are essentially high on ambition. They look at their alliances in the same way. (Friendships are a different story.) They ally with those they think will do them the most good.

Pansy has always been a Slytherin leader. She was even the Slytherin Cheerleader at the Quidditch game. Yet we don't read about her throwing her parents' money or status around. In fact, we don't even see her throwing her authority around as prefect or Inquisitorial Squad member. So her influence appears to be primarily from within.

Draco, on the other hand, is constantly referring to his dad's money and/or position for his status. And as soon as he got some official authority, he was seen lording over his fellow students.

Draco's dear old dad is now in Azkaban at the most; descredited, disgraced, and in hiding at the least. The I.S. is now history. He might even lose his prefect position in the sixth year. Where does that leave Draco?

Indeed, I think it very likely that Pansy will become top Slytherin Dog of the sixth years.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 3:14 pm (#206 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Marcus wrote about Pansy, "In fact, we don't even see her throwing her authority around as prefect or Inquisitorial Squad member.

But I would like to direct attention to the following quote (p. 197, OoP, Scholastic): "A short distance away, Draco Malfoy, followed by a small gang of cronies including Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy Parkinson, was pushing some timid-looking second years out of the way so that they could get a coach to themselves."

Pansy is a prefect, like Draco. Even if one argues that Draco was doing all the "pushing" himself, Pansy is still allowing it to happen. So I do think she is abusing her position of prefect, or not living up to her responsibilities.

Also, as a side note, I would argue that the Inquisitorial Squad itself is a flagrant abuse of power, even if it did originate with Umbridge. Pansy actively participates in the Squad, and aids Umbridge by running into the Room of Requirement and returning with the list of DA members. She could have run in and claimed not to have found anything, much as Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum.

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 3:20 pm (#207 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
That's true, Catherine. Pansy did have opportunities to show her true colors other than the "typical" Draco-like Slytherin, but she didn't.


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Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 3:29 pm (#208 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
So you are saying that Lupin abused his authority as prefect because he didn't keep James and Sirius in line? That's rather unforgiving, isn't it? What was it that Dumbledore said when he gave Neville that ten points at the end of the first book?

There was no I.S. at the time of the D.A. raid. Umbridge gave a direct order to a prefect to run into a room and gather evidence against an illegal organization. Pansy sees a list of names on the wall. Is this not evidence? You are saying she should have ignored the evidence. Why? On what grounds? Because Harry Potter was involved? Neither she, Draco, or Umbridge knew Harry was involved at the time. All Pansy had time for was to dash in, grab, dash out. She didn't even have time to read the list.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 3:48 pm (#209 of 496)

Canon Seeker
So you are saying that Lupin abused his authority as prefect because he didn't keep James and Sirius in line? That's rather unforgiving, isn't it? What was it that Dumbledore said when he gave Neville that ten points at the end of the first book?--Prefect Marcus

I think you have a good point here, Marcus, and I'm glad you made it. But no, I am not saying that Lupin abused his position. He didn't participate in humiliating Snape. But he didn't speak up, and he himself admitted that he was wrong for not doing so, and that he had failed to exercise control over his best friends. I would say that is dereliction of duty by Lupin, and I think that, at a minimum, Pansy is guilty of dereliction as well.

I think the situation with Pansy is not quite the same. As you rightfully point out, it takes courage to stand up to your friends. But Draco bullies a first-year student, which is a little different than what happens between Snape and Sirius and James. We know from Lupin that Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James. And presumably, Pansy allows Draco's bullying of the first-year student as well, and presumably she rides in the carriage that was obtained by abuse of prefect power.

THAT'S what I'm saying! ;-)

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 4:42 pm (#210 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Also, Lupin showed remorse over his dereliction of duty. As far as we know, Pansy never showed remorse about failing to stop the things that Draco did.

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 4:54 pm (#211 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Indeed. Lupin's failure to keep James from picking on Snape, who was well able to defend himself, and may even have started it but most certainly had a long-established history of mutual animosity with James before Lupin was made prefect, cannot be compared to Pansy's failure to keep Draco from picking on timid, nonaggressive students whose only fault was that they were sitting in the seat Draco wanted. I would go further than Catherine Allen's statement that the situation with Pansy is not quite the same. I would say it is radically different. And as Lauren points out, the lack of remorse underscores their character differences.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 7:02 pm (#212 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 29, 2004 7:04 pm
And you know Pansy has no remorse...how?

If you say it's because she hasn't expressed any, Lupin never expressed any either until he was an adult reliving that time with Sirius and Harry. No matter how you slice it, Lupin simply looked the other way when his best friends decided they were bored and ambushed an innocent bystander, humilating him in front of all his peers. They were the two most talented, popular students of their year ganging up on the least popular kid in school. And you comparing this to a group of upper-classmen pushing aside a group of lower-classmen?

While we are on the subject, howabout that new Gryffindor Prefect calling all those brand-new 1st year students "midgets" to their face? Oh, and the other Gryffindor Prefect blasting any lower-classman that dared make a noise that distrubed her during OWL week?

So why are you coming down so hard on Pansy but not on Lupin, Ron, or Hermione? Because they're the "good guys"?

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total hatred - Jun 30, 2004 12:34 am (#213 of 496)

Pushing low clansmen to get the coach all be yourself can't be classified a blatant misuse of authority. It can be classified exerting your authority.

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mike miller - Jun 30, 2004 4:55 am (#214 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I'm half way through another re-read of OotP and have one observation regarding Pansy. In the earlier books, when Draco is "being Draco" he is nearly always in the company of Crabbe and Goyle. In several cases it is also mentioned that Pansy and her gand of Slytherin girls are watching, laughing or joining in on the fun. In OotP, Pansy is included right along with Crabbe and Goyle in nearly every situation.

I have not reach the part where, according to Marcus, Pansy is no longer "on screen". Thus far in the story it appears that Pansy has elevated her status within the Slytherin hierarchy, perhaps only through her growing relationship with Draco.

I'll come back to this thread once I've finished the book for further comment. I like certain elements of Marcus's theory that Pansy will realign her allegiance and help to unite the houses through a relationship with Harry. However, there is no evidence in the story. I think we will have to see a major, possibly traumatic, event in Pansy's life to switch her over.

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haymoni - Jun 30, 2004 5:31 am (#215 of 496)

Pansy has not been given the opportunity to reform just yet.

I cannot recall hearing anything from her after the MOM battle. We didn't even see her on the Hogwarts Express - No Pansy the Slug.

Perhaps Miss Pansy (and her parents) will be re-thinking her allegiance over the summer.

Seamus got to admit that he was wrong after the Quibbler article. Perhaps Pansy will be eating crow in The Half-Blood Prince.

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Catherine - Jun 30, 2004 5:36 am (#216 of 496)

Canon Seeker
So why are you coming down so hard on Pansy but not on Lupin, Ron, or Hermione? Because they're the "good guys"?--Marcus

I don't have to come down on Ron, because Hermione already took Ron to task for calling them midgets. Hermione has consistently defended the younger students.

I don't need to come down on Lupin because he himself admitted wrongdoing in not reigning in his two best friends. Lupin, at least, was not laughing at Snape in the Pensieve scene, whereas lots of other students in addition to Sirius, James, and Peter were watching and laughing.

I don't think I "came down" on Pansy. I just believe that your statement that she has "never" abused her power as prefect is inaccurate.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 30, 2004 7:23 am (#217 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 30, 2004 7:23 am
Catherine - I just believe that your statement that she has "never" abused her power as prefect is inaccurate

abuse v.t. 1 To use improperly or injuriously; misuse. 2 To hurt by treating wrongly; injure. 3 To speak in coarse or bad terms of; revile; malign.

Abuse requires you to DO something. It certainly may be said that she abuses Harry and his friends on a regular basis. It might even be accurate to say that she and Draco abused those first years. But at no point did she use her authority to abuse anybody. So by definition, she never abused her authority.

Are you willing to say Lupin was abusing his authority?

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Catherine - Jun 30, 2004 7:41 am (#218 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I have already stated that Lupin was guilty of neglect, or dereliction of duty. I have already said that Pansy was, at a minimum, guilty of this as well. (In fairness, Ron has a hard time standing up to Fred and George, and leaves the dirty work to Hermione.)

We can argue semantics about the word "abuse" if you like. If you want me to identify specific actions that prove she has abused her position, then I would say that her actions in using the ill-gotten carriage was an abuse. In addition, I would say that encouraging Slytherins in the cheering section to sing a degrading song about a member of the other team is an abuse of power. As a prefect, she is a leader, and she is not setting an appropriate example for younger students. She appears to be using her position of leader to sing insults about Ron, encourage other students to revile Ron as well, and it's pretty clear that she expects to get away with it.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2004 9:42 am (#219 of 496)

ABUSE: 1 : to put to a wrong or improper use

Catherine is correct in that Hermione told Ron he was wrong and Lupin admitted that he himself was wrong.

Yes, they were both putting their prefect status to a wrong or improper use.

If Pansy admits that she was wrong in not taking Draco to task, then it's possible that she will redeem herself. That didn't happen in the fifth book, however, so until it does, she's still a future Bella to me.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 30, 2004 9:44 am (#220 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jun 30, 2004 9:45 am
There is no question that she is abusing people. But is she abusing her authority? Abuse does not require authority to happen.

What did she do in OoP that she didn't do in the four previous books where she had no official authority? What did she do in OoP that she made reference to her authority as excuse for doing it?

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Catherine - Jun 30, 2004 10:26 am (#221 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Marcus,

I don't think Pansy had to self-refer to her authority in order to abuse it, and I never stated that she in fact made verbal reference to her prefect authority. Why should you impose this condition? Why should she have to directly refer to her status as prefect? She wears a badge that says, "Prefect" on it!

The badge gives her special privileges, and more authority than the average Hogwarts student. I believe that the badge also demands more responsibility from the student wearing it. This is one reason why Hermione snarls at Ron when he expresses an interest in drinking Firewhiskey in the Hog's Head.

It is reasonable to think that younger students may believe that they have to comply with Pansy's and Draco's demands because Pansy and Draco are prefects. It is also reasonable that the timid-looking second years would be afraid to claim their carriage after being pushed out of the way because they are afraid of Crabbe and Goyle, and they believe that Pansy and Draco will either sic the two thugs on them, or look the other way while Crabbe and Goyle use more forceful means of persuasion. It is also possible that even if a Slytherin didn't want to sing the "Weasley is Our King," that Pansy's status as prefect would push them into it.

Finally, Marcus's question of "What did she do in OoP that she didn't do in the four previous books where she had no official authority? "

I don't think this is the point. The point is that NOW she does have authority, and I would argue that changes the situation.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 30, 2004 11:51 am (#222 of 496)

Well, I think it is indeed reasonable to believe that certain Slytherins would have felt obliged to participate in meanness and reasonable to believe that they would have felt so obliged by virtue of Pansy's and Draco's prefect badges. However, I think that Marcus is pointing out that we have no indication that she did anything special with the power those badges brought. What, exactly, can prefects do? Well, they can give detention and that's about it. (Arguably, they can deduct house points, but for the sake of argument, lets say that they can't since, at least in OoP, the IS are the only students we've seen do that successfully.) Pansy didn't give anyone detention that we know of. As a matter of fact, if anyone was close to "abusing" the power, it was Ron. He was pretty quick to trot out his status as a prefect to squelch the argument between Harry and Seamus.

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Dumbledore - Jun 30, 2004 12:10 pm (#223 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I think it is a moot point whether Pansy abused her prefect authority, as Catherine said. The point is, Pansy abused students in the past, whether by using her prefect authority or not.

P.S. Prefect Marcus, even though I disagree with you about Pansy on many counts (but not all!) I do have to commend you for bringing renewed life to this thread!

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Chemyst - Jun 30, 2004 3:11 pm (#224 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
And you know Pansy has no remorse...how? Primarily by interpreting the body language clues and posturing that JKR has given us. For example, in the Pensieve scene, "Many of the surrounding watchers laughed...but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and neither did Lily." Now, I doubt if many thought he was really lost in his reading, (after all, a such compelling novel as Philosopher's Stone hadn't been written yet. ) But the point is that he chose to sit apart and not participate in the mocking laughter. By this, JKR has shown that he finds his situation distasteful and is trying to avoid it. By contrast to Lupin who sits apart, Pansy is nearly always shown standing alongside cheering. After she became prefect, she even led the cheering.

They (James & Sirius) were the two most talented, popular students of their year ganging up on the least popular kid (Snape) in school. I disagree with the premise. Snape may have been unpopular in the Gryfindor POV, but he had his own gang of Slytherins where his ability to hex others was well respected. Snape was neither defenseless nor timid about using his power. James was picking on somebody his own size, whereas Draco never does that. Draco consistently bullies only the weak. His mode of operation with Harry is to run and tattle. This pattern was established in SS/PS when he told McGonagall that Harry had a dragon on the astronomy tower and has been replayed throughout his Hogwarts career. (How Pansy could ever like such a spineless punk is beyond me!)

Pansy has not been given the opportunity to reform just yet. Huh? The opportunity to reform occurs about a nanosecond after the transgression. I think you mean Pansy has not been given the motive to reform just yet. That is quite possible.

Abuse requires you to DO something. This is wading into murky logic since neglect is commonly considered to be abuse. However, Pansy has done something, in fact Pansy has done several things. JKR has established her as a person who crafts a situation to her own personal benefit, the Skeeter interview being an example. That is who she is and it is unrealistic to think that she would hesitate to not take full advantage of her prefect badge.

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haymoni - Jul 1, 2004 6:58 am (#225 of 496)

Chemyst - You are correct - she has not been given the "motive" to reform - I mis-typed.

I think we'll see in in HBP - we'd better!

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total hatred - Jul 1, 2004 2:47 pm (#226 of 496)

I agree she never has given the motive to reform. You can't reform if you have no reasons in doing so.

Snape is primarily James target because of Lily. He is so mean to her even though she is nice to her.

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Kip Carter - Jul 1, 2004 3:41 pm (#227 of 496)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Two posts were deleted from this threads because it disturb the continuity of the thread. Please do not repost.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 1, 2004 5:00 pm (#228 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 5:01 pm
Chemyst - And you know Pansy has no remorse...how? Primarily by interpreting the body language clues and posturing that JKR has given us.

If it was any other author, I might agree with you. But Rowling has used misleading "body language clues and posturing" far too many times to accept that as proof. The books are full of it. Think of the whole Snape/Quirrell thing in the first book. The whole of book #4 is rife with it. If Rowling is intending Pansy to become something more than she is now, what better way to do than by hiding it behind "body language clues and posturing"?

I do not accept that Pansy is not capable of remorse. Remorse is one of the few explanations that makes sense of her actions with the bubo-tuber pus letter, for one thing. For another, it also explains why she disappears off-screen after the Quibbler letter.

Yes, she has a mean streak. She has a nasty sense of humor that she takes out on people she doesn't like. This mean streak is most pronounced at the beginning of OoP. But at the time, the majority of the Wizarding World thought Harry was either crazy, or attention hungry, or both.

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Chemyst - Jul 1, 2004 5:43 pm (#229 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Marcus, it's nice we agree on at least one thing about Pansy, I too "do not accept that Pansy is not capable of remorse," --only that she hasn't shown any to date. I would enjoy seeing her be forced to face what a nasty witch she's been, and decide to turn from her wicked ways. The girl needs a healthy dose of conscience and compassion. I hope she gets both. It would be a refreshing change to see the Inquisitional-Squad-types being betrayed by their own prefect. However, since I don't see her showing any so far, we remain in disagreement that Pansy's remorse "explains why she disappears off-screen after the Quibbler letter." A simpler explanation, and one that does not require such a leap of faith, would be that OotP was long enough already.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 1, 2004 5:56 pm (#230 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 5:58 pm
We seem to agree on something else. I will also enjoy seeing her, "forced to face what a nasty witch she's been."

It will not be easy for her. I never said it would be. I just predict that she will choose..."wisely".

A simpler explanation, and one that does not require such a leap of faith, would be that OotP was long enough already.

I am not saying Pansy chose to be off stage, but Rowling kept her there. I look at it as a "Thestral" moment. If Pansy really did start to change her ways after the Quibbler article, it would be too much to handle so near to the end of the book. So Rowling just conviently places her off-stage whenever she's mentioned after that.

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total hatred - Jul 2, 2004 3:19 pm (#231 of 496)

I think Pansy is projecting a tough girl persona. She is trying to project that she is strong so that people will respect her. There must be something in her family background that forced her to adopt that persona. I do believe that she too is capable of remorse. All she needs is some motivation.

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Accio Book Six - Jul 3, 2004 5:55 am (#232 of 496)

I just think that Pansy's use had run dry by the Quibbler article. I mean, she's not *gone*, because she's mentioned. I think she isn't "onscreen" again just because her childish taunting had already been bested. The Quibbler article really one-upped all of the bullies at the school, and to bring back the taunting of Pansy et al. would just bring the story around in a circle.

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haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 10:58 am (#233 of 496)

Actually - since it was published in the Quibbler - all the article did was make people think.

I think we really stop seeing Pansy after the MOM battle - Dumbledore was proven correct - Voldemort was seen in the MOM. What can one possibly say against Harry Potter now?

That's why I thought it was strange that we didn't see Pansy with Draco, Crabbe & Goyle when Minerva returns. Also, she wasn't with the Nibblers on the Hogwarts Express, resulting in the Slug Fest.

I'm thinking Miss Pansy is keeping a very low profile.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 3, 2004 11:16 am (#234 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
haymoni, Pansy has yet to appear or be mentioned in the last 150 pages of any book in the series, so I wouldn't read too much into it. What would have been strange is if she had been with Draco, or mentioned in the Slug Fest.

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haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 11:26 am (#235 of 496)

The Death Nibblers seemed to band together - we saw Nott talking with Draco, Crabbe & Goyle after the Quibbler article. Crabbe & Goyle were at their usual bodyguard posts with Draco after their dads were arrested.

If Pansy was going to make a statement of support for Draco, I think we would have seen her standing with him. As it is, she is slug-slime free.

Now it could be as you say - Pansy per usual - or it could be a hint of what's to come.

Bring on the Half Blood Prince!!!

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 4:19 pm (#236 of 496)

It is pretty interesting to note that she seems to be a sort of Draco-follower throughout the book but after the arrest of the Death Nibblers dads, she seems to disappear from the scene. Thinking back on it, I probably would have expected her to be there, but that's just me. I would like to see her reform and step over to the good side. It would make for an interesting side-story: The struggle between the 'nice Pansy' and the 'nasty Pansy' causes problems for the rest of the group^_^

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Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 4:26 pm (#237 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Very interesting...maybe with all the Slytherin influence around her, Pansy was always (and ignorantly) under the assumption that the Death Eaters and Voldemort had the "right idea" about things, and that Harry was, in fact, the enemy, which would explain Pansy's nasty treatment of him and his friends. However, after the MoM episode, perhaps Pansy DOES see the "true colors" of Voldemort and his actions (similar to Regulus Black) and decides to stray away from that kind of life and the people who associate with it. We just have to wait and see until HBP!! *sigh*

Edit: I really don't know what to think about Pansy anymore. Some days I see her as this nasty witch who shows no remorse for being mean to Harry, and others I see her as a victim of "Slytherinism". Sorry if I seem to be a very wishy-washy poster, because I am! ;-)

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total hatred - Jul 3, 2004 4:43 pm (#238 of 496)

I agree with Dumbledore. Pansy is hanging around with the wrong bunch. I think she is not stupid to folllow someone who is obviously wrong. I believe she is one of the few Slytherin to have a brain to make a choice

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 5:00 pm (#239 of 496)

I think if this is the case, she definately won't be the only victim of 'Slytherinism' in the bunch. There are probably a house full of victims of this way of thinking. The Death Nibblers have been raised that way so it's really the only way they know to think. They are at the age now where they should be forming their own oppinions about the world and most definately if Pansy were to reform, she'd bring with her a whole gang of 'reformed' Slytherins, not just come alone. They would probably not be Draco and his crowd but some of the less well-known members of the house. Her reformation could be key to uniting the houses.

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haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 5:37 pm (#240 of 496)

Holy Cricket - where is Prefect Marcus????!!!!

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Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 5:42 pm (#241 of 496)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Haha Haymoni, this type of talk about Pansy reforming is the stuff he would love (and has been waiting for for a long, long time)

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Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 4:11 pm (#242 of 496)

I'd just like to go back to the earlier arguments that Pansy was abusing her power, and please forgive me for doing so but I'm fairly new and have just started reading all the posts.

It seems to me that Pansy would have just as likely participated in throwing the other students out of the carriage without her prefect status. It also depends how prefects are chosed; by the standards of the house (which is more likely) or the overall "best people" by JKR's standards. If they are chosen by the standards of the house, then Pansy was in no way abusing her power (the Sorting Hat's song when it says that Slytherins will use any means to achieve their ends - sorry, no books at the moment, so I don't have quotes).

As for Pansy reforming, she does seem to be the most likely of the Slytherins IMO. However, even though she is provided with so many new ideas that are so different from how she was raised, she still is surrounded by Slytherins, and therefore, her old ethics are still reinforced.

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total hatred - Jul 4, 2004 4:13 pm (#243 of 496)

I agree. Pansy is not purely evil. She is a bit sarcastic.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 1:41 pm (#244 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 1:43 pm
I am flattered I was missed! :-D

This should probably be over in the Chat and Greeting thread but since you asked, I have been enjoying a relaxing Fourth of July weekend with several old friends.

That said, I'm not all that sure I agree with StareyedSlytherin's contrast between the 'nice' Pansy and the 'nasty' Pansy. I would more likely contrast the 'good' with the 'nasty' one. Pansy has a long way to go before she hits 'nice'.

One of her biggest obstacles will be Hermione. As I stated in the midst of my first read of GoF, "You do not upset Hermione Granger!" I knew instantly Rita Skeeter was in deep trouble when she ran that "anti-Hermione" article.

Hermione has been one of Pansy's favorite targets. As a result, Pansy is one of the few people that Hermione tends to be non-logical about. "That absolute Cow!" "Thicker than a concussed Troll!" Reacting with glee over the antlers incident. If Pansy is going to reform, she is going to have to get past Hermione.

Remember how Ron's mouth interfered with Harry and Cho getting together. Hermione might end up playing the same role in keeping Harry and Pansy from working together. You might even have Ron arguing with Hermione to keep her nose out of it. Won't that be fun!

Should make for some interesting fireworks. ;-)

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total hatred - Jul 6, 2004 2:39 pm (#245 of 496)

Mmm. It will be fun. In fact if that happens, H/Hr ship will become stronger. The story will become more interesting. Gryffindor and Slytherin fighting for the ultimate price. Miss Prim and Proper against Miss Mean and Nasty for the love of the Boy Who Lived.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 3:28 pm (#246 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 3:30 pm
Well, I doubt romance will have much to do with her initial reformation. It would be more along the lines of Pansy thinking, "These Death Nibblers are a bunch of losers. I need to align myself with the good-guys. How do I do that? Going against Lord Voldemort especially as a Slytherin can be hazardous to one's health. Whom can I work with to improve my chances of survival?"

There might even be a bit of, "Being a snot has been fun, but it is getting me nowhere fast." Time to grow up!

So Pansy will start trying to get in with Harry and the D.A.. And smack dab in her path will be Hermione and her built-up antagonism. It might even drive a wedge between Harry and Hermione for part of the book.

So sit back and enjoy the fireworks! :-)

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Chemyst - Jul 6, 2004 5:22 pm (#247 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Marcus, do you mind if I edit that a little?

It would be more along the lines of Pansy thinking, "These Death Nibblers are a bunch of losers. I need to align myself with the good-guys winners. How do I do that? Going against Lord Voldemort, especially as a Slytherin, can be hazardous to one's health. Who can I work with would be the most useful to improve my chances of survival?"

There, that's better. Now I can agree because I do believe Pansy would rather be a winner than a good-guy (good-gal?).

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 5:40 pm (#248 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
No problem, Chemyst. Be my guest.

There can be no question that Harry and friends are on the ascent at Hogwarts, and the Nibblers are on the descent. Slytherins who are clever and cunning enough should be able to see that.

I think sooner or later Pansy will reach the realization that being a snot has worked against her and will try being nicer, but she doesn't necessary have to realize that right away.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 7, 2004 7:30 am (#249 of 496)

I think sooner or later Pansy will reach the realization that being a snot has worked against her and will try being nicer, but she doesn't necessary have to realize that right away. -- Prefect Marcus

In other words, as you already said, she will have to grow up for reformation to work. I agree that Rowling would likely take the transformation in stages as something too abrupt wouldn't, from a literary standpoint, be too believable. Paradoxically enough, from a real world standpoint, 15-16 year olds often go through rather abrupt changes in personality.

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Tom Vitleysa - Jul 7, 2004 7:50 am (#250 of 496)

I don't really see Pansy becoming friends with anyone from the main group...friendly, maybe. I can see a split in Slytherin house and maybe Pansy will have something to do with that. At a safe distance, I think even Hermione could accept her as an ally, but a friend with enough influence to cause a rift between Harry & Hermione and a possible relationship with Harry? Harry and Ron don't like her much either and neither does JKR from everything I've seen. I don't see it going that far.

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total hatred - Jul 7, 2004 11:02 pm (#251 of 496)
I believe Pansy have easier time making friends with Harry than Mione. Hermione is so narrowminded while Harry is neutral on her

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 8, 2004 12:19 am (#252 of 496)

I don't think there will be a relationship there, just a friendship at the most. She's never given the main characters a reason to like her at all, and if there is to be a relationship with any of the boys, she would really have to work up to that. I would think that if at all, it would only happen at the very end of the series. And as close as Harry is to Ron and Hermione and as much as the three of them have been through together, I don't think he would risk letting Pansy come between him and them.

I could see her turning around and deciding for herself that the direction she's headed in right now is not the best direction to go. And of course, she wouldn't be completely nice about it, but I don't think she's completely bad either.

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total hatred - Jul 8, 2004 3:49 am (#253 of 496)

I agree. Pansy will definitely reform.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 7:44 am (#254 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
StareyedSlytherin - And as close as Harry is to Ron and Hermione and as much as the three of them have been through together, I don't think he would risk letting Pansy come between him and them.

So you are saying he needs his friends' permission to fall in love? Wimp! Wimp! How "starry-eyed" is that? ;-)

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 1:41 pm (#255 of 496)

Edited by Kip Carter Jul 8, 2004 7:29 pm
Personally, I think Harry's gone through too many trying situations with Slytherins to develop feelings for a girl who stood back and laughed at every nasty comment Draco ever threw his way. A friendship or something of the sort, maybe, but nothing more.
I edited this post to make it more family friendly. - Kip

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 2:35 pm (#256 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Anna,

Whether or not she and Harry get together, I am confident Rowling intends her to be more than just Draco in Drag. :-)

Marcus


Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 2:36 pm (#257 of 496)[/b]
I never said otherwise Smile

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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 2:48 pm (#258 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Whether or not she and Harry get together, I am confident Rowling intends her to be more than just Draco in Drag. :-) --Prefect Marcus

Or maybe more than just a drag?? :0

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 3:00 pm (#259 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 8, 2004 3:01 pm
No, you did not. :-)

But Pansy reforming and Harry/Pansy 'shipping are two different topics on two different threads, and I was attempting some topic management.

There is a reason I'm not a moderator. :-)

EDIT: Oh hello Catherine. Nice you see you back on the Pansy threads.

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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 5:43 pm (#260 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I would like to see any evidence for sympathy toward Pansy.

Marcus, this does NOT mean you! Sorry, but your theory is well known by now.

Anyone, anyone?

EDIT: (tilting head, batting eyelashes, and SIMPERING...Why, hello, Marcus, thanks for noticing me, you big old softie, you!)

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 6:46 pm (#261 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Sympathy by whom in what way? Rowling in her descriptions? Characters in their actions? Readers in their reactions? Movie makers in their depictions? Forum members in their postings?

Do you mean sympathy like Pansy shows Draco after Buckbeak mauls him? Do you mean loyalty as in "Where do your sympathies lie?"

EDIT:My wife warned me not to post my picture. She said it would give the ladies the idea that I was available!

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 6:59 pm (#262 of 496)

I think she means sympathy as in why we think she would reform? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 7:11 pm (#263 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Anna, you're not wrong. Continue, please Smile I would love to read something new on this thread!

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 7:33 pm (#264 of 496)

Well, this isn't really based on anything solid. From what I've gathered, it's just a presentiment. As Marcus and Chemyst pointed out, Pansy’s line of thought would mostly be along the lines of:

"These Death Nibblers are a bunch of losers. I need to align myself with the good-guys winners. How do I do that? Going against Lord Voldemort, especially as a Slytherin, can be hazardous to one's health. Who can I work with would be the most useful to improve my chances of survival?" – post 247 of this thread

Although many Death Nibblers seem to think that way, it just seems that Pansy would be the first to realize it. Maybe this was just a coincidence, but after Harry’s interview came out, she sort of disappeared. Perhaps she was re-thinking her loyalties and/or actions?

Please note I'm just summarizing what has been said lately. Most of these ideas have been discussed in further detail in previous posts.

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schoff - Jul 8, 2004 8:45 pm (#265 of 496)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
From Pansy:

Dream Dictionary

Definition: Seeing a pansy in your dream, represents thoughts and nobility of the mind. Alternatively, it suggests that you are being too gullible.

That's how I always thought of Pansy. She's pretty gullible and falls for whatever Draco says.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 11:25 am (#266 of 496)

That's how I always thought of Pansy. She's pretty gullible and falls for whatever Draco says-- scoff

Well, I won't argue with her gullibility necessarily, but I will point out that she can be pretty mean on her own and is not simply laughing at Draco's wise-cracks.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 9, 2004 4:43 pm (#267 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Catherine,

Since you dislike Pansy, I am guessing you've never owned a pug?

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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 4:54 pm (#268 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I am not prejudiced toward Pansy because she is "pug-faced." Actually, I rather think that's in her favor, as I like pugs and dogs in general. Before you try to equate me with Aunt Marge, I don't have twelve dogs, nor am I beefy or mustached :-)

Actually, I am not prejudiced toward Pansy at all, except that she's quite unlikeable, and I think she might be rather better as a pug. Pugs being loveable, and all that.

WARNING: OFF TOPIC REPLY TO OFF-TOPIC QUESTION:

Marcus, that's a rather abrupt and personal question! :-)

I actually like what my family terms, "Smushy-faced dogs." See the Shih-Tzu pics for confirmation. I like being involved in breed rescue.

Pugs are actually very nice dogs, since you asked. We had a super-sweet one (aptly named "Pugsley") at the Humane Society recently who was owner-surrendered for the crime of...shedding. Yep. A dog who sheds. Let's call out the Wizengamot for THAT!

Cheers, Marcus, and thanks for asking!

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Chemyst - Jul 9, 2004 5:14 pm (#269 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...nor am I beefy or mustached ~ Catherine Allen
Whew! What a relief!

Pansy's pug-face description also fits with the actual "face" on the pansy flower. (Think Lewis Carroll & Through The Looking Glass, although that is cartoon/movie contamination, there are no pansies in The Garden of Live Flowers in the book!)

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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 5:48 pm (#270 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Yes, Chemyst, exactly so! I've always liked the "Pansy = thoughts" idea.

I should perhaps post a pic so that members can evaluate my lack of mustache, but I like suspense, don't you? Plus, I was on TV last fall multiple times for "Millionaire," and I rather think that they would have nixed me if I had had an obvious mustache!
As I've said before, I thought about naming the current dog "Pansy." It was my (ok, sappy reason coming) sorority flower and she had a dark face to boot. But Pansy's nature, at least up to OoP, was not up to naming standards. Especially a dog I have to love and live with :-)

But I have promised that if Pansy becomes remotely likeable in future novels that my next Shih-Tzu can be named that. It's the best I can do.

So is there anything new to talk about with Pansy, or have we all gone there already? Smile

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 10, 2004 9:57 am (#271 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 10, 2004 9:58 am
We have been discussing Pansy's possible reformation and Harry 'ship for some time now. More than enough time for most people to detemine where they stand on it. So now is the time to vote on it.

Ladies and Gentlemen. Kindly mark your ballots as follows:

On the question of Pansy's reformation. 10 means her reclaimation is guaranteed. 0 means she will never change.
On the question of her possible 'ship with Harry. 10 means Pansy's family may as well book the wedding hall with the non-refundable deposit today. 0 means Hermione/Ginny/Luna/(et al) have nothing to worry about.
To start things off, I am voting A-8 and B-7.

How about you?

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 10, 2004 10:18 am (#272 of 496)

8 and 7? I agree with the 8, but come on, Marcus! Only a 7? Its your theory! Perhaps you are reflecting that there are truly no guarantees in matters of the heart? :-D

Anyway, as I said, I'll agree with the "A-8." As to B, there is a principle in law that the plaintiff can rise no higher than his/her own evidence. So, since Marcus feels the Harry/Pansy ship is worth a 7, I'll go with that as well. "B-7"

Cheers.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 10, 2004 10:39 am (#273 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 10, 2004 10:45 am
Loopy,

With any other writer, the 7 would be an 8, or even a 9. With Rowling, it is more difficult to predict because she is so good with those red herrings.

Also, it depends upon her reforming. If she reforms in HBP, then the 'ship is a 9.

So .8 * .9 = .72. Hence the 7.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 10, 2004 10:50 am (#274 of 496)

I see. I should have known that there had been a calculation involved. Smile

Mmmm. You responded to my post in 21 minutes. Sir, we truly have too much time on our hands. :0

EDIT-- And I respond to you in 11 minutes. LOL.

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Angel of the North - Jul 10, 2004 11:50 am (#275 of 496)

Tea, dammit
A = 7
B = 6

I want it to happen, but I'd rather see Millicent redeemed in some ways

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Weeny Owl - Jul 10, 2004 1:02 pm (#276 of 496)

A - 0
B - 0

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 10, 2004 2:30 pm (#277 of 496)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
A=5 B=0

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Anna Osipova - Jul 10, 2004 3:04 pm (#278 of 496)

I think A = 4 and B = 1. I'm giving them a chance, but I do think it to be unlikely.

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haymoni - Jul 10, 2004 3:13 pm (#279 of 496)

I say 8 and 6.
I think the 'ship is there but they are only teenagers - this may be one of those 'ships that pass in the night - booking a hall for a wedding may be a bit much.

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Catherine - Jul 10, 2004 3:24 pm (#280 of 496)

Canon Seeker
1 and 1.

I NEVER say "Never!" Or, oops, maybe I just did. Let's say, I almost never say, "Never!"

EDIT: I have obviously not responded as quickly as Marcus and Loopy, but I may indeed have too much time on my hands!

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 10, 2004 5:53 pm (#281 of 496)

I Am Almighty!
3 and 1.

You make a convincing argument, Marcus, but I think that has more to do with your persuasive abilities than it does with the "evidence" from the books. Also, I still think the whole Harry/Pansy theory derives from a misinterpretation of a quote from JKR.
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Cuivienen - Jul 10, 2004 6:54 pm (#282 of 496)

A -- 6 (Reforms because she thinks evil is losing) B -- 3 (Anything is possible in JKR's books, but I think Harry/Pansy is too far out there.)

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 10, 2004 7:45 pm (#283 of 496)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
a-8.5 b-9

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 11, 2004 5:08 am (#284 of 496)

A-8,B-4.

This assumes of course that JKR plans to redeem the slytherins. I know I would like to see that. But really, what concrete evidence is there? Consider Snape, the only Slytherin who is working for Dumbledore. I really,really want him to be a "good guy", but the way he's writtenit is ambiguous as to whether he is truly loyal. Will he betray Dumbledore by Book 7? The other evidence that of the actions of Percy and Wormtail could just simply mean that by Book 7, they will see the error of their ways and reform.

The question is in JKR's world: is the sorting hat destiny? (which means Gryffindors redeem themselves and Slytherins can't be trusted) or is choices the more important thing that supersedes the sorting hat?

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MrsGump - Jul 11, 2004 6:33 am (#285 of 496)

I'm with Weeny Owl: A=0; B=0

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Weeny Owl - Jul 11, 2004 9:04 am (#286 of 496)

While this is a Pansy Parkinson thread, since she's a Slytherin, I think this must be addressed: Consider Snape, the only Slytherin who is working for Dumbledore

We don't know that Snape is the only Slytherin working for Dumbledore. At the moment, he may be the only KNOWN Slytherin, but we have no idea what houses other members of the Order could be in.

For all we know, Marcus may be right and the Parkinsons might either be current Order members or may yet become Order members, but I think it's unlikely. I truly don't believe that Pansy will change for the better.

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Chemyst - Jul 11, 2004 12:51 pm (#287 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Standard public opinion polls have 5 as a neutral value, no change. On this poll, 0 means she will never change, so if I were to imagine an ending where Pansy runs off and plays the female-Percy sidekick role for Umbridge, then I'd have to post in negative numbers, wouldn't I? And the outcome of question B depends heavily upon the outcome of question A. If A = 10, and Pansy's reform is assured, then B could be 7, but if A < 8, and Pansy waffles in her loyalty, then B = 0.

I haven't read all of the Harry's 'ship uniting the houses thread, but I did see the JKR quote on the subject of unlikely pairings, "There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything..." (Wouldn't Snape + anybody be the most unlikely? 'except for Gina, but I digress...) That is thoroughly frustrating because it implies, but does not specifically indicate, Harry. All it really tells us is that she has planned a surprising pairing, (which may not be a 'ship pairing.) We have spent an awful lot of time chasing the "Rowling said we'll never guess, so what would I never guess?" line of unreasoning.

Here are the few scraps I do know: If help comes from unexpected sources, Pansy is a top qualifier to help Harry, but it is still a giant leap to the altar. Harry has latent Slytherin qualities, as identified by the sorting hat, so a Slytherin may make a good soulmate with a nice balance between common-ground and opposites-attract.

Oh, well, given what we're given, A = 2, B = 1.

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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 10:12 pm (#288 of 496)

Back in business
A=0
B=0 (Did someone expected anything else of me?)

I have to give 0 for A because you wrote "0 means she will never change". I don't think she will change because JKR characters don't change, they switch side and mature. Snape is still Snape, Percy is still Percy, Fudge is still Fudge, Sirius is still Sirius, Ernie is still Ernie (in OoP, it's the first time he stick with Harry when everything point out he's a mad attention seeker, but he chose his side for the same old reasons) She could mature, be less kiddish in her nasty mind games, but she will still be nasty. She could switch side and openly support Dumbledore and Harry, but she will still be nasty to her opponents. Had you asked if Pansy will switch side, I would have put 5.

For the question B, I just can see the both of them getting together in the long term unless Harry go one morning to buy milk and never come back. Harry will be sacrificed in that relation, that can't work.

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Maollelujah - Jul 11, 2004 11:10 pm (#289 of 496)

I'll go with A= 0 B= 0

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Czarina II - Jul 11, 2004 11:33 pm (#290 of 496)

A = 2

B = 0.5

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mike miller - Jul 12, 2004 9:35 am (#291 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I like what Chemyst said in that B is very dependent on A. I don't see Pansy recognizing that Voldemort & Co. are going to be the losers. In fact, they may look pretty good before the story turns the other way.

If Pansy's parents were to be AK'd by Voldemort in HBP, then I'd say A=9 and B=5. Barring the major traumatic event, I think B does not have much chance at all.

Oh, well, given what we're given, A = 4, B = 1.

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Padfoot - Jul 15, 2004 3:16 pm (#292 of 496)

Edited by Jul 15, 2004 3:16 pm
On the question of Pansy's reformation.

A=3 B=2

I do not want to rule out all possibility that Pansy will change and/or end up with Harry. I just do not think it likely. If Marcus had not made his case so enthusiastically (and thoroughly) I would have given it a 0/0 rating.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 16, 2004 7:19 am (#293 of 496)

In fact, they may look pretty good before the story turns the other way-- Mike Miller

This does give me some concern in terms of Pansy's reformation. It is quite likely that Book 6 will be the "Empire Strikes Back" of the series with the "bad guys" getting the upper hand and leaving Harry and Co. to rally in Book 7. On the other hand, the LV and Co. winning means people dying, so maybe the various deaths will ultimately shake Pansy up.

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total hatred - Jul 17, 2004 1:58 pm (#294 of 496)

I was rereading GoF, then I have this stupid idea. What if the one who sent the hate mail with bubotuber pus was Pansy. I know this is a bit far fetched but it makes semse. How come Pansy knows that Hermione is not feeling well and she seems that she is so interested on what happened to Hermione that day as if she is expecting it. If I analyze the letter, I believe that the one who wrote it really loves Harry or either it is a prank.

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 4:04 pm (#295 of 496)

Someone suggested that somewhere - I remember reading it.

Anything is possible - the students had just learned about the bubotuber stuff.

I don't know if Pansy would know how to handle it without ending up like Hermione.

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total hatred - Jul 17, 2004 4:12 pm (#296 of 496)

Dragon skin gloves. They can protect from the pus

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 4:42 pm (#297 of 496)

But of course! What was I thinking?

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MrsGump - Jul 17, 2004 5:19 pm (#298 of 496)

I was the one who mentioned that before, because that's always how I've read it. She couldn't tell Harry and Co. that she was responsible, but she wanted to see what the effects were.

It was back in post #127, but have no idea how to link it here.

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 7:16 pm (#299 of 496)

So is she evil?

Is she jealous of Hermione?

Or both?

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total hatred - Jul 19, 2004 6:36 pm (#300 of 496)

I think she is jealous of Hermione. All her targets excluding Ron are girls linked to Harry and most of her sarcastic comments if read too closely are hinting that she likes Harry and she wants him all by herself.

BTW, I have written a fanfic based on the info I got from this forum for my literary project. It was Harry/all the girls linked to him. I have no trouble creating a believable story except for the Susan Bones part. I have to use the rumored Sirius/Madam Bones ship to link Harry to Susan.

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:33 am

Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 8:17 pm (#301 of 496)
Rebel without a cause.
I agree with total hatred. Will you please give the link to your Fanfic Total Hatred?

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virgoddess1313 - Jul 19, 2004 8:49 pm (#302 of 496)

I agree that a lot of Pansy's vile behavior stems from jealousy towards the more intelligent (as far as I've been able to tell anyway) and the presumably more attractive Hermione. And also from the obvious fact that she's a Slytherin and Hermione is not, therefore making her less, in the eyes of a Syltherin.

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total hatred - Jul 21, 2004 3:05 pm (#303 of 496)

Unfortunately my stupid brother messed up my computer and corrupted Windows so I was forced to reformat my PC.

I am not in the mood to rewrite the fic right now since my mid term exam is coming. I can give you the basic plot.

Because Sirius supposed death, Harry was determined to be stronger and in the process adopted a bad boy attitude. Not the Malfoy approach but something like the attitude of Squall.

When he returned to Hogwarts, he was made an praetor. I made up that postion to allow Harry to freely wander the halls by night and it is vital to my Harry/Pansy angle.

Now hell breaks loose, the shippable girls runs after him. I made a different approach with each girl. For example, Pansy is hiding in her bad girl attitude to hide she loves Harry and it was a fateful encounter in the hall in one night that Harry realize that she is not totally evil. Ginny left her hero worship of Harry and realized that she had more than a crush on Harry. She made Harry her tutor for the OWL as an excuse to know him better.

Hermione was the last to crack. she still regards him as friend and it was due to this relentless assault of the girls on Harry that she is in love with him.I pity Hermione for all the mental torture I made her to undergo.

Here is line in the fic that I fondly remember. "Yes, I am your friend, just a friend. I made the stupidest mistake of my life falling in love with my best friend."

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Sir Tornado - Jul 21, 2004 9:29 pm (#304 of 496)

Rebel without a cause.
Total, drop a link when you finish it. Now, back to Pansy...

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total hatred - Jul 24, 2004 5:51 am (#305 of 496)

Hey Tornedo will it be believable if I made Sirius the father of Susan Bones? I trying rewrite the fanfic with modification along the way

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Sir Tornado - Jul 24, 2004 11:54 am (#306 of 496)

Rebel without a cause.
Sirius father of Susan? You want to show her adopted by Bones or what? Siriusly, I think we should get back to Pansy.

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total hatred - Jul 25, 2004 9:27 pm (#307 of 496)

Susan is not the daughter of Edgar Bones and Amelia is her aunt. There is no supporting fact that Madam Amelia Susan Bones has an another brother aside from Edgar.

I was making the assumption that Susan might be an illegitimate daughter of Madam Bones. I believe Madam Bones graduated at same time with Sirius and the girl staring at Sirius at the Pensieve might be her.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 25, 2004 9:34 pm (#308 of 496)

Let it snow!
There really isn't much to back that either. Susan says something about having an uncle, aunt and cousins killed by DEs (I think it's mentioned just after the DEs escape), and called Amelia Bones her aunt. The logical conclusion is that Amelia had two brothers, Edgar who died and Susan's father.....

Edit: Why is this on the 'Pansy' thread? We have a thread for Susan as well....

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total hatred - Jul 25, 2004 9:54 pm (#309 of 496)

Opps Sorry I was asking Tornedo comment in the believabilty of the plot of my fanfic. I assure you that it is still relevant since I am emphasizing the Pansy/Harry ship in my Fanfic

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Hermy-own - Aug 7, 2004 12:38 pm (#310 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Remember Marcus's poll from a month or so ago?

I think:

A = 9 (mainly because of her conspicuous absence from Umbridge's office prior to the DoM adventure)

B = 6 and three quarters Wink (would be higher but I'm also considering a Harry/Susan 'ship)

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Ronan - Aug 20, 2004 3:13 pm (#311 of 496)

I'd LOVE to see Pansy reforming... just as I'd love to see Theodore Nott or Blaise turning out to be good, or ANY Slytherin, whoever. I'll be very dissapointed with the books if we get to the end of book #7 without having seen any non-bidimensional "evil Slytheryn".

So, my bet is A=7 B=2 (that's too much of a stretch Wink

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Fawkes - Aug 24, 2004 9:39 am (#312 of 496)

I think that we are definately up for someone [probably Pansy, but perhaps Blaise or Nott] to reform. It has to happen for Voldie to be defeated, and they can't just throw it in the last book; like any good potion, it must have time to simmer.

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Quidam - Aug 28, 2004 5:47 am (#313 of 496)

To all those people who say that Pansy didn't abuse her position in the IS, I think that everyone in the IS abused their position just by being in it.

And I don't think the fact that Pansy was not in Umbridge's office during the DA vs IS showdown means anything. The only IS members who were in the room at the time were;

Malfoy Warrington (holding Ron) Crabbe (holding Neville) Millicent (pinning Hermione against a wall) 6th year girl (holding Ginny) Unidentified student (holding Luna)

I'm sure the IS had more than 7 members so Pansy was not the only one who was not present (as far as we know neither was Goyle). All of the above IS members, except Malfoy, were all described as large. And I don't recall Pansy being described that way. Maybe Warrington (he seemed to be in charge of capturing the DA members) used Millicent instead of Pansy because she was bigger and would have done a better job preventing the DA's escape.

And sorry, Prefect Marcus, but I don't think Pansy will reform. According to Occam's razor the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable. And the case for Pansy reforming seems more complicated that the case for her not reforming.

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Hermy-own - Aug 28, 2004 6:24 am (#314 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"And the case for Pansy reforming seems more complicated than the case for her not reforming."

In PS/SS, everyone believed it was Snape who tried to kill Harry during that Quidditch match. The case for Quirrell being the guilty party was less likely than that for Snape (until JKR shocked us in the final chapter).
Same thing in PoA. Who would have expected Sirius to be the good guy? Certainly, the Occam's razor would not have backed such a complicated sequence of events. *I could think of more examples but the women's basketball finals are about to start at the Olympics. Come on USA!*

I guess what I'm trying to say is JKR has suprised us on several occasions and I wouldn't put it past her to do it again - even if it goes against Occam's Razor.

EDIT: To be honest, I don't know much about Occam's Razor so I'm not sure if my arguements make sense to those familiar with the razor...

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TomProffitt - Aug 28, 2004 6:28 am (#315 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
Occam's Razor applies to science and the natural world, but doesn't really apply to mystery writing.

Mystery writing is much more of Holmes's, "When all other possibilities have been ruled out .... "

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Ronan - Aug 28, 2004 7:11 am (#316 of 496)

Well, even if I previopusly voted A=7 for Pansy to reform, I admit I think Quidam is right. While we have witnessed some redeeming qualities in Snape and... err, Snape, it seems more and more unlikely for her to reform. She has been evil from day one (I recently reread PS and found that during the first flight class she makes fun of Parvati for defending Neville), and her only slightly positive qualities SHOWN have been her appreciatio for unicorns and worrying about Malfoy's injury.

But I still believe the books need some good slytherins, for various reasons, even logical ones!:

A) Now the WW knows the names of the DE, befriending a Death Nibbler implies befriending LV (except in case that DN, unlike his father, is not pro-Voldemnort. Nott is the only possibility so far). If the whole of Slytherin house supports Death Nibblers, that means Hogwarts school knowingly hosts and actively helps future criminals by helping them to become adept at magic. Now, that's a rather mad thing to do.

B) I can't see why being cunning and sly and reluctant to risk own's life to protect others means being plain evil. Sure, you are not going to be a hero and probably you won't be a a very helpful or kind person but that doesn't automatically mean you support murder and prejudice.

C) If the above assumption was in fact true, how on Earth does DD permit Slytherin house to still exist? A special study programme should be created in order to teach them morals, and surely they should randomly mix them with other houses instead of putting them together so they don't have any role model of good behaviour.

Does that make sense? It's been tricky to write! Wink

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Hermy-own - Aug 28, 2004 8:44 am (#317 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Yes it makes sense, Ronan. Slytherin house is nott intrinsically evil, I don't think there's any doubt about that. Whether it will be Pansy or another Slytherin that will rise up against the death nibblers remains to be seen.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 28, 2004 11:15 am (#318 of 496)

Slytherin house is nott intrinsically evil

You may have typoed "nott," but that makes me think that perhaps his name is deliberate as in he is NOT pro-Voldemort. JKR does have a unique slant on names.

I'm currently reading OotP again, and another example of Pansy's maliciousness leapt out at me... when the Gryffindors are having Quidditch practice, the Slytherins are there being hateful... nothing new, of course. Pansy makes a nasty comment to Angelina, asking her why she has such a weird hairstyle because it looks like worms are growing out of her head.

Sirius did say that the world isn't divided into nice people and Death Eaters, but he said that regarding Umbridge. If Umbridge isn't a Death Eater and can be that horrible, Pansy doesn't have to be pro-Voldemort either, but that doesn't mean she'll ever be anything but what she's been for the five years she's been at Hogwarts. Perhaps she'll "redeem" herself by becoming an Umbridge clone... not a Death Eater but still an awful person.

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 31, 2004 3:25 pm (#319 of 496)

I have to giggle at the Occam's Razor comments. Marcus himself has trotted that out in past disagreements with me, although I am completely in his camp on the Pansy issue.

I am sure that someone with more technical knowledge will correct me, but here is my understanding. Occam's Razor means that the simplest explanation is usually correct. Hundreds of years ago when religious doctrine dictated that the Earth was the center of the universe, astronomers had a heck of a time explaining the movements of planets. They created elaborate charts that showed the various planets moving in epicycles and all sort's of motions, a veritable St. Vitus dance of the heavens. A much simpler explanation was available if you used the Sun as the center of our universe and, lo and behold, that turned out to be correct. I don't know if the planetary issue is where the principle comes from. I also don't necessarily agree that it has any application to our discussions here.

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KWeldon - Aug 31, 2004 8:06 pm (#320 of 496)

Out of sheer boredom, I began to try to research more about the Parkinson name to hopefully glean some information about Pansy.

The curious thing is that anyone in the Western world would associate the name Parkinson with the debilitating neurodegenerative disease of the same name. Why would JKR do this? Certainly there are other names she could have chosen. Does the choice of the name having to do with a debilitating disease have anything to do with her own mother’s fight against MS? I don’t see an obvious connection, unless you stretch it to speculate that perhaps Pansy will reform to an honorable character and she thus becomes a cherished character for JKR---that seems far-fetched.

However, upon researching the name Parkinson and its association with Great Britain, I found that there was a famous Scottish botanist named Sydney Parkinson. No idea what that could mean.

But, the disease namesake is British, too! James Parkinson (April 11, 1755 to December 21, 1824) was an English physician, geologist, paleontologist, and political activist. He is most famous for his 1817 work, Essay on the Shaking Palsy, a description of the disease that later became known as Parkinson's Disease.

“Palsy—Parkinson”? Is there a connection there?

Parkinson was an advocate for the under-privileged, and an outspoken critic of the then current government. Early in his career he was a vocal proponent of social and revolutionary causes, and he called for radical social reforms while writing under a pseudonym, “Old Hubert”.

Parkinson called for representation of the people in the House of Commons, the institution of annual parliaments, and universal suffrage. He was a member of several secret political societies, including the London Corresponding Society for Reform of Parliamentary Representation. In 1794 his membership in the organization led to his being suspected of associating with a plot to assassinate King George III. He refused to testify regarding his part in "The Pop-Gun Plot", until he was certain he would not be forced to incriminate himself. The plan was to use a poisoned dart fired from a "pop gun" to bring the king's reign to a premature conclusion.

A Parkinson’s Disease Society article even says, “[he]…was a controversial social reformer and political activist….” under the subject of the article entitled, “Social Reform.”

Well, what do you think? Is it possible Pansy’s name suggests she will reform?

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Tomoé - Aug 31, 2004 9:56 pm (#321 of 496)

Back in business
Good works KWeldon, take 15 points.

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Hermy-own - Sep 1, 2004 3:32 am (#322 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Well researched, KWeldon. You should also consider mentioning this on Phelim's thread: What's in a name? At least for the benefit of forum members who do not visit this thread.

Good stuff, have another 15 points!

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KWeldon - Sep 1, 2004 12:24 pm (#323 of 496)

Thanks, Tomoe and Hermy-own! *Sniff* My first ever points....

I know very little about British history, being an American, and there certainly are other individuals important to its social and political reform. However, it doesn't seem SO off the wall to me that it applies here.

For example, if her last name were Martin and there was a well-known social/political reformer also named Martin, then it may be a stretch to make the argument. However, as I mentioned, the name "Parkinson" means one and only thing to the Western world, so why would JKR bother with it?

I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting Pansy will reform the WW, but that she herself will reform socially.

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total hatred - Sep 4, 2004 4:04 am (#324 of 496)

In the game FF8, I have found many paralellism. For example Squall=Harry Quistis= Hermione. I know that many of you perceive Fuujin is evil during the start of the game because she is afiliated to Seifer but near the end of the game, we realized that she is not evil but she merely follows him due to her loyalty and friendship to him, nothing more or less. She even tries to persuade him to stop his harmful antics.

As you can see, there is more than meets the eye. Personality wise Fuujin= Pansy and Seifer= Draco

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 4, 2004 4:17 am (#325 of 496)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
total? "As you can see"...I'm sorry hun, you lost me. Not hard to do, that's a given. Could you please explain:

Squall=Harry Quistis= Hermione,Fuujin, Seifer?

If I missed a vital post, please point me in the right direction.

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Leila 2X4B - Sep 4, 2004 7:32 am (#326 of 496)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Hermione = Quistis Harry=Squall? Really, I do not see that...entirely. What about the scene where she talks to him in the secret area of the academy's battle arena? I do not believe that Harry would ever be that tactless. Personally, I do not see Hermione ever confessing her love for Harry either. Perhaps Quistis is more Pansy and Draco is that prat, Seifer that keeps on iritating Squall.

Leila

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total hatred - Sep 7, 2004 2:22 pm (#327 of 496)

I made that parallelism to fact that Quistis is in fact bossy and extremely smart. I believe that Harry is slowly becoming like Squall and Squall is not that tactless. He is just suppresing his emotions and he decided to not to let his emotions cloud his judgement. Harry is slowly adopting that approach because he got Sirius killed due to impulsiveness. Squall is just as sensitive as Harry when it comes to considering other's emotion.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 5, 2004 12:47 pm (#328 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 5, 2004 1:10 pm
Someone mentioned there were parallels between my current avatar (Megara from Disney's cartoon Hercules) and Pansy.

In some ways, I agree. The more obvious one is that they both have to become redeemed before they can win their hero.

I think the more important one would the change in attitude that must occur before they earn the hero. Megara starts out the movie as a very cynical and very life-harden woman. She is wise in the ways of the world. She distrusts men. She has been badly burned by them previously. She remarked to Hades after meeting Hercules, "He come on to me with this great big innocent routine. Well I saw through that in a Peloponnesian minute."

By the end of the movie, she had been humbled. She had been made vulnerable. She was willing to sacrifice her life to save the man she loved. And when that was over, she was willing to sacrifice her newly found happiness in order for Hercules to advance. She had truly lost herself for him. Luckily for her, he has lost himself for her as well, and he turned down the promotion in order to be with her.

Another interesting parallel is that Hercules' friends could tell Megara was trouble from the get go, but Hercules didn't. Harry's friends, especially Hermione, have a harder time with Pansy than Harry does. Harry has always (with one exception) been strictly neutral towards Pansy. Hermione hates her guts.

Now all analogies break down as some point. Megara and Pansy are two different girls in two different stories with two different heros with two different plotlines. But the process that Megara went through is the same one that Pansy must endure if she is to reform and become redeemed in the eyes of Harry and his friends.

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haymoni - Oct 5, 2004 12:55 pm (#329 of 496)

Marcus - I liked your parallel of Draco and the Boulders = Hades, Pain & Panic.

Pansy will either be the daughter of a DE or a crow-munching Harry-loyalist.

We shall see.

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Chemyst - Oct 5, 2004 3:56 pm (#330 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...the process that Megara went through is the same one that Pansy must endure if she is to reform
To be uttered in a Richard Dean Anderson tone of voice: See, it's that "endure" thing I have problems with.
Pansy seems more the burn-'em-first-before-they-get-you type. Ah, well, we shall see.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 5, 2004 4:04 pm (#331 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Chemyst - Pansy seems more the burn-'em-first-before-they-get-you type

You may be right there. She certainly seems the burn-first-ask-questions-later type...except at the time of the bubotuber letter when she didn't pounce. There she was asking questions and then didn't burn.

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Leila 2X4B - Oct 5, 2004 9:54 pm (#332 of 496)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Thank you Marcus, for posting the parallels that I saw when I mentioned it on the chat thread. My thoughts exactly. Pansy is no Sleeping Beauty, however, she is no Malificant either. She can be redeemed. The only reason why we do not like her is not because of how she acts, but who she acts like that to. If she was using her "wit" to pick on Draco and Co, would we be against her? Not likely. She is just on the opposite side of the line right now.

Leila

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Chemyst - Oct 6, 2004 6:26 am (#333 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The only reason why we do not like her is ... because of ... who she acts like that to. If she was using her "wit" to pick on Draco and Co, would we be against her? - Sleeping Beauty

That is a very reasonable question, Leila. At this point in my life, with what humble maturity I've gained from raising children, I can confidently say, "Yes, I still would not like her." I am confident because my daughter once had a "friend" who lead a pack like Pansy, and even though they were "basically good" girls, I did not like the exclusive controlling attitude. (And thankfully it took my daughter only three months to come to the same conclusion and amicably move on.)

When I gave your question the benefit of the doubt and considered if I would have felt differently as a teen, I came to the conclusion I still would not have liked her, but I would have been very timid about showing my dislike and possibly have felt guilty for not liking everybody. To the outside world, I would have attempted to look neutral because "it was the right thing to do." – some of those conflicting teen emotions.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 10:19 am (#334 of 496)

If she was using her "wit" to pick on Draco and Co, would we be against her?

Actually, I would because the comments we hear from the Gryffindors aren't made in public just to humiliate someone. They're usually commenting in a fairly private setting, while Draco and Company go out of their way to make sure their comments are made in front of the most people as possible in order to have the greatest impact.

Pansy's nasty comment to Cho about Cedric at least being good-looking was meant to hurt, for instance. It wasn't just voicing an opinion in the Slytherin common room about people she didn't care for.

If Harry and his friends did that sort of thing in public, I wouldn't like them either.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 10:26 am (#335 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
...exclusive controlling attitude. ????

Are you saying that you do not like Pansy because she is a leader? :-)

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 6, 2004 10:27 am (#336 of 496)

I'll grant you that making nasty comments in public is a rung above being mean in private because of the public element. But isn't one, in both instances, still being mean?

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 10:49 am (#337 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Not only that, but it has been said that to take the true measure of a person, examine them when they think no-one is looking.

Pansy comes out pretty good in many of those "un-guarded" moments.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 11:46 am (#338 of 496)

I'll grant you that making nasty comments in public is a rung above being mean in private because of the public element. But isn't one, in both instances, still being mean?

No, it isn't, because it's human nature to talk about people whether you like them or dislike them. Having negative opinions about someone and voicing said opinions to friends is a completely different thing than deliberately, and with malice aforethought, saying hurtful things with the specific intention of causing as much harm as possible, and in front of as many people as possible. It isn't necessarily the comments; no one is liked by everyone, and things will be said about everyone that are negative. It's the fact that Pansy makes sure her victims are in a public setting. She isn't just voicing an opinion; rather, she is deliberately looking for a situation where she can cause pain.

Feelings are feelings regardless, but to go out of her way with sadistic glee when she's hurt someone is just too much a future Death Eater thing to do.

I have yet to see Pansy come out pretty good in any moment, guarded or not.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 12:02 pm (#339 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 6, 2004 12:03 pm
I have yet to see Pansy come out pretty good in any moment, guarded or not.

It's really not that hard if you try. :-)

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Catherine - Oct 6, 2004 12:43 pm (#340 of 496)

Canon Seeker
It's really not that hard if you try. :-) --Marcus

I've tried. So far, I have not seen that Pansy comes off well. I also don't assume that her behavior "off-screen" is any nicer than her behavior "on-screen." I don't think I'm capable of that kind of Herculean effort. :-)

What if we're seeing Pansy at her very best, most sweet, sincere, and kind? Now that is a scary thought.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 6, 2004 1:56 pm (#341 of 496)

No, it isn't, because it's human nature to talk about people whether you like them or dislike them.-- Weeny Owl

Miss Manners' eye is twitching. Perhaps discussing people is "human nature." But there is always the idea that if you can't say anything nice, it is best to say nothing at all.

Fine, fine, fine. I must, again, point out the double standard that I think is being applied to Pansy. For the umpteenth time, there is no doubt she is and has been a snot. This does not foreclose the possibility that she can reform. It is as simple as that to put it in a nutshell. Anyone who thinks that snotty, even abusive, even really, really, really abusive (I mean really MEAN) behavior forecloses the possibility of redemption need only look at one person: James Potter.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 3:04 pm (#342 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 6, 2004 3:08 pm
We all have our public and our private selves with many shades of in-between. There are broadly speaking four selves. There is the totally alone self, the family self, the friends self, and the strangers self.

The best judge of character is the totally-alone self when we think we won't get caught. Since the series is from Harry's POV (with a few exceptions), we can only reliably judge Harry on this one.

There is another way catch a glimpse of the private self. It is the totally-taken-by-surprise self. It isn't perfect, but it is a useful tool because people tend to react by instinct in these situations.

So, bearing that in mind, there are times that Pansy has been taken by surprise which show her in a better light than her usual public snot persona.

Let's look at just the first two.

SS: Neville's remembrall. Parvati attacks Draco in defense of her Housemate. Pansy responds by attacking Parvati in defense of her Housemate.

PoA: Draco's goring by Buckbeak. She responds by criticizing Hagrid for having such a dangerous animal. (Anybody care to argue against her on that one?) Then she bursts into tears and runs into school to see if Draco was all right. Nobody else does this.
So in her first two taken-by-surprise episodes she shows loyalty, friendship, concern, and compassion. Not bad if you ask me.

Yes, those good traits were directed towards Draco, but what does it say about us if we begrudge Pansy of that?

P.S.: Once again, a fine post Loopy.

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total hatred - Oct 6, 2004 3:05 pm (#343 of 496)

I agree with you. James Potter is far more worse than Pansy. He inflicted far more damage than Draco and company combined.

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Hermy-own - Oct 6, 2004 3:27 pm (#344 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"Anyone who thinks that snotty, even abusive, even really, really, really abusive (I mean really MEAN) behavior forecloses the possibility of redemption need only look at one person: James Potter." -- Loopy Lupin.

Oops, it looks like we've found the quote of the day!

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 6, 2004 6:58 pm (#345 of 496)

We still don't know the whole story behind Snape's worst memory. For all we know, Snape did equally bad things to James.

Whatever the case, I'll start thinking better of Pansy when Draco and company play a deadly prank (or ambush) on Harry, and Pansy saves Harry's life.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 8:04 pm (#346 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
The problem with that, Paulus, is that some people (no names) would just say it was all a set-up.

"If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will." (Abraham Lincoln)

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Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 8:32 pm (#347 of 496)

"If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will." (Abraham Lincoln)

But we don't have to look for the bad in Pansy. It's out there, in our faces, and even in newspapers and magazines.

The point isn't what anyone thinks or says to friends. The point is that Pansy deliberately goes out of her way to cause pain. That's flat-out sadistic. That's plain cruel.

Taunting a girl about her dead boyfriend is something that can't be justified. That isn't friends venting about rivals; that is something that was said specifically to cause pain.

A perfect example of Pansy's kinder, gentler side: 'I mean', said Malfoy, raising his voice a little more, his grey eyes glittering malevolently in Harry and Ron's direction, 'if it's a question of influence with the Ministry, I don't think they've got much chance... from what my father says, they've been looking for an excuse to sack Arthur Weasley for years... and as for Potter... my father says it's a matter of time before the Ministry has him carted off to St Mungo's... apparently they've got a special ward for people whose brains have been addled by magic.'

Malfoy made a grotesque face, his mouth sagging open and his eyes rolling. Crabbe and Goyle gave their usual grunts of laughter; Pansy Parkinson shrieked with glee.

Pansy conducted the taunting song about Ron. Pansy made fun of Hagrid during Umbridge's inspection.

While it is always possible that someone will change, at the moment, I don't see anything about her that is even close to being anything but her usual nasty self.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 9:31 pm (#348 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
For the umpteenth (plus one) time, there is no doubt she is and has been a snot. This does not foreclose the possibility that she can reform. It is as simple as that to put it in a nutshell. Anyone who thinks that snotty, even abusive, even really, really, really abusive (I mean really MEAN) behavior forecloses the possibility of redemption need only look at one person: James Potter. -- Loopy Lupin.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 10:22 pm (#349 of 496)

The main difference between James and Pansy is that we know there was a constant battle between him and Snape, but Pansy doesn't care who her victims are. No one has to have done anything to her to be a target. Snape jinxed James as much as James jinxed Snape, at least according to Lupin, yet what did Neville ever do to Pansy? What did Cho ever do to her? What did Hermione ever do to her? What has anyone ever done to her that warranted the visciousness she exhibits?

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Leila 2X4B - Oct 6, 2004 10:26 pm (#350 of 496)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Well, for one, they all were friends of Harry. That is what they "did" to her. They wouldn't have been targeted otherwise.

Leila

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:34 am

TomProffitt - Oct 7, 2004 4:55 am (#351 of 496)
Bullheaded empiricist
As near as I can figure there is absolutely nothing in Canon that demonstrates, even remotely, that Pansy Parkinson can not reform.

I still think Marcus's excellent theory is over-analyzed bunk, but I can't disprove it.

Let's lay off Pansy a bit, I was almost as bad as her in High School and I grew up into a not so bad fellow.

EDIT: Marcus, this is said at least a little in jest, no offense intended.

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Chemyst - Oct 7, 2004 5:40 am (#352 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...exclusive controlling attitude. ????
Are you saying that you do not like Pansy because she is a leader? – Marcus
No, I'm saying I don't care for exclusive controlling attitudes. Leaders comes in many forms, both likable and unlikable; the coach, the mentor, [long list of others,] the dictator, the tyrant.

making nasty comments in public is a rung above being mean in private... – Loopy 'Funny how people can sometimes think backwards and yet come to the same conclusion... I'd call it a rung below.

Well, for one, they all were friends of Harry. That is what they "did" to her. – Leila Gosh, you're right! OK, then. We have another thing to add to Pansy's "obstacles to reformation" column: hate by association.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 7, 2004 7:21 am (#353 of 496)

We still don't know the whole story behind Snape's worst memory. For all we know, Snape did equally bad things to James.-- Paulus Maximus

Without me books, I'm terrible at remembering direct quotes. However, I believe that Lily Evans asked James Potter "What's he done to you?" and the response was "It's more the fact that he exists , if you know what I mean." There certainly may have been previous episodes about which Lily did not know, but this was James' response to a direct question.

P.S.-- Thanks for the compliment above Marcus. Also, as I said, I'm without my books at the moment. So, I cannot confirm or deny Weeny's statement that Lupin said Snape jinxed James as much as James jinxed Snaped. (A little help anyone?) Even so, it seemed quite clear that, at least at the age of 15, Snape was no match for James and the identity of the bully should not be in doubt. Plus, it was rather two versus one on top of everything else wasn't it?

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Catherine - Oct 7, 2004 7:49 am (#354 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Well, Loopy,

I do have me books here, and Weeny is correct. **waves to the Weeny Owl!**

Lupin does tell Harry that Snape "never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (p. 671, OoP, Scholastic).

For the most part, it was one-on-one until Snape was attempting to curse James after James acquiesced to Lily. Until that point, Sirius had laughed, but not cursed Snape himself. Sirius did the locomotor mortis to prevent Snape from attacking at that point.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 7, 2004 8:05 am (#355 of 496)

Why did I bother to type "anyone" when I could have just said: "Quote please, Catherine"?

Of course, we have to give Lupin's comment due consideration. But, I'm sure he (1) would take James' side over Snape any day even if he, Lupin, doesn't necessarily hate Snape as Sirius surely does and (2)he was talking to Harry at the time who was quite distressed over what he had just seen his father do. Rightly so. Whatever the past may have been or whatever happened after that particular day, the dynamics of the scene are quite clear to me. Snape was minding his business. Sirius was bored. James decided to humiliate Snape for fun and it may have been even worse after Harry left the Pensieve.

So, to try to get this topic back under our belts, **waves to the mods and adjusts waistline** you can wrap everything Pansy's done up to this point and put it all together and it still doesn't equal this.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 7, 2004 8:10 am (#356 of 496)

"James decided to humiliate Snape for fun and it may have been even worse after Harry left the Pensieve."

James did far worse to Snape than Pansy ever did to any individual.

But remember just how many individuals Pansy had humiliated. James only humiliated one.

And we also have to give James' comment due consideration. "It's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean." If someone jinxed me enough, I'd hate him only for the fact that he existed too...

I'm quite sure that James was too hot-headed at the moment to list every single time Snape had jinxed him, since I've been unable to think rationally myself at times.

Sure, Lupin might take James' side over Snape's, but I can't see him lying to Harry. Shading the truth, perhaps... like saying that the makers of the Marauder's Map would think it a good joke to lure Harry out of the castle without revealing who they were... but not saying that Snape often jinxed James when in fact he never jinxed James.

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Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 8:36 am (#357 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"James only humiliated one."

Do we really know this for sure? We know of Snape but there could have been other students (dare I say Slytherins?) who did not agree with James. Let's face it: James was arrogant as a teen; he could not have had many admirers.

At any rate, I don't see why the number of "victims" should be an issue. The fact remains that both James and Pansy have deliberately humiliated their rivals. So, in this respect, they belong in the same boat.

Hermy.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 7, 2004 8:45 am (#358 of 496)

but not saying that Snape often jinxed James when in fact he never jinxed James. -- Lupin

But not being exactly clear on who instigated the encounters would be the type of thing Lupin would do, at least at that moment.

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KWeldon - Oct 7, 2004 9:53 am (#359 of 496)

But remember just how many individuals Pansy had humiliated. James only humiliated one.

I don't have my books, but didn't Lily refer to James as hexing people in the halls just for fun? Would that not have been some form of humiliation? Granted not to the level Snape endured, but I wouldn't characterize James' mean behavior as specific for Snape.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 7, 2004 10:03 am (#360 of 496)

**waving to Catherine!!** Thanks for the quote!

Snape and James disliked each other from the beginning, much as Harry and Draco reacted to each other. Dumbledore told Harry that.

Hermione, Neville, and Ron didn't react to Pansy at all until she started in on them.

As for what James did to Snape, it was indeed a horrid thing. It was, though, something that occured at school.

What Pansy (and Draco, of course) did to Hermione was published in the media and resulted in actual physical harm. Regardless of whether or not Pansy ever said a word after the bubotuber incident, she still continued to taunt and humiliate as often as possible the next year.

As for Lupin, there would have to have been enough jinxes from Snape to make an impact or he wouldn't have mentioned it. Lupin might not give out all the information he has, but he is basically truthful. Even if Snape only jinxed James a couple of times, it's still a different situation than with Pansy.

No one has done anything to Pansy, yet she still shrieks with glee when someone is being humiliated, still conducts a derogatory song simply to hurt Ron, and still torments Hagrid.

Yes, redemption is possible for anyone, but with all of her shrieking and sadistic taunts, she seems to be headed in the direction of becoming the next Bella.

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KWeldon - Oct 7, 2004 10:09 am (#361 of 496)

she seems to be headed in the direction of becoming the next Bella

Or Jo may have different plans for her. I am copying from my post #320 here:

James Parkinson (April 11, 1755 to December 21, 1824) was an English physician, geologist, paleontologist, and political activist. He is most famous for his 1817 work, Essay on the Shaking Palsy, a description of the disease that later became known as Parkinson's Disease.

“Palsy—Parkinson”? Is there a connection there?

Parkinson was an advocate for the under-privileged, and an outspoken critic of the then current government. Early in his career he was a vocal proponent of social and revolutionary causes, and he called for radical social reforms while writing under a pseudonym, “Old Hubert”.

Parkinson called for representation of the people in the House of Commons, the institution of annual parliaments, and universal suffrage. He was a member of several secret political societies, including the London Corresponding Society for Reform of Parliamentary Representation. In 1794 his membership in the organization led to his being suspected of associating with a plot to assassinate King George III. He refused to testify regarding his part in "The Pop-Gun Plot", until he was certain he would not be forced to incriminate himself. The plan was to use a poisoned dart fired from a "pop gun" to bring the king's reign to a premature conclusion.

A Parkinson’s Disease Society article even says, “[he]…was a controversial social reformer and political activist….” under the subject of the article entitled, “Social Reform.”

This could be a coincidence, but why would Jo pick a name so strongly associated with the disease otherwise? There's a heckuva lotta names out there to choose from.

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Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 12:36 pm (#362 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"What Pansy (and Draco, of course) did to Hermione was published in the media and resulted in actual physical harm." -- Weeny Owl

Yes, it was published in the media. But, I must add that this was catalyzed by Rita Skeeter's meddling.

Had Skeeter been in Hogwarts during the James-Snape era, and had approached young James Potter, I doubt the latter would have declined the opportunity to speak ill of his rival.

"she seems to be headed in the direction of becoming the next Bella." -- Weeny Owl

I must admit, this whole Bella-Pansy does worry me - particularly the shrieking.

It is not something I noticed whilst reading the books; in fact, I first encountered the idea on Marcus' thread - I believe it was your idea, Weeny Owl. You make a good observation.

Indeed, if JKR does not intend for Pansy to redeem herself, then it is likely she, Pansy, will "become" the next Bellatrix Lastrange. For now, though, I have to say that Marcus and KWeldon are on the right track. Just my two knuts, that's all...

Hermy.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 7, 2004 3:22 pm (#363 of 496)

Since Pansy is just 15-16, I hope she does reform, but considering JKR needs villains and Pansy is already on the road to perdition, she might be JKR's main teenage female baddie.

Of course, with all the surprises JKR has already written, I won't cross Pansy off entirely... yet.

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Leila 2X4B - Oct 7, 2004 3:49 pm (#364 of 496)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I think that I should have made my meaning more clear in my last post. I was trying to point out that since her bad behavior is not as universal as it appears, but directly regarding Harry. I feel that it does indicate that she is in the perfect place to reform, especaily if she starts to like him(or already does.) I think that we will see a good Syltherin because the world is not black and white. I just hope that it is Pansy who is the one who proves it.

Leila

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 4:56 pm (#365 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Hmmm,

I have my doubts about her liking Harry at this present time. It is certainly possible that she now respects him after reading the Quibbler article.

However, remember that there is no proof of this. There is only the barest of hints; Rowling's puzzling removal of her off-stage at the end of OoP. As Weeny and Catherine are so correct to point out, this is pretty meager evidence.

Either way, liking someone and respecting someone are two different things, are they not?

:-)

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Catherine - Oct 7, 2004 5:31 pm (#366 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Either way, liking someone and respecting someone are two different things, are they not? --Marcus

Indeed, Marcus. Indeed.

**smiles wickedly**

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Chemyst - Oct 7, 2004 5:47 pm (#367 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Either way, liking someone and respecting someone are two different things, are they not? --Marcus

Indeed, Marcus. Indeed.

**smiles supportively behind Catherine**

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 6:04 pm (#368 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 7, 2004 6:05 pm
Indeed, ladies. Indeed.

**smiles magnanimously**

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 7, 2004 6:25 pm (#369 of 496)

Fer sure, fer sure

***grins moderatedly****

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Weeny Owl - Oct 7, 2004 8:06 pm (#370 of 496)

**smiles both wickedly and supportively behind Catherine and Chemyst**

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 5:39 am (#371 of 496)

I am picturing all of you nodding your heads, while pressing your fingertips together, ala Dumbledore, as you say, "Indeed, indeed!"

I say respect will lead to something a bit more.

Unless, of course, she is the daughter of a Death Eater.

Then Miss Parkinson is lost.


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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 8, 2004 8:53 am (#372 of 496)

I don't think being the child of a Death Eater necessary means anyone is lost. It is certainly unfair to decide what someone is like simply based on who their parents are. Look at how Snape treats Harry, simply because he hates James Potter.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 10:39 am (#373 of 496)

I just think we are going to find out very quickly where Miss Parkinson's "loyalties lie."

She's either going to support Harry and the others fighting against Voldy or start spouting the pure-blood rhetoric.

Draco very quickly showed his true colors and Pansy was nowhere to be found. This makes me hopeful.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 8, 2004 10:55 am (#374 of 496)

Draco very quickly showed his true colors and Pansy was nowhere to be found. This makes me hopeful.

We don't know how many female Death Eaters there are. We know about Bella, but how many more? Voldemort didn't name all of them at his rebirthing, but it's possible more were there. Supporting Voldemort and actually becoming a Death Eater aren't one and the same, I realize.

Pansy not being with Draco and his stooges doesn't have an impact on me since she usually isn't around at the beginning and end of the books. The lack of female Death Eaters has more of an impact on me, though. I won't completely rule out that she'll side with the good guys, but if she does, JKR is going to have a tough time making it seem realistic.

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KWeldon - Oct 8, 2004 11:30 am (#375 of 496)

I just think we are going to find out very quickly where Miss Parkinson's "loyalties lie."

I think you're right, and it likely will happen along the lines of Marcus' fanfic example of how it could play out, where Pansy approaches Harry about joining the DA.

I'll predict here and now that Pansy will drop Draco early in the year, if she didn't over the summer, and will start going out with either Blaise or Terence. Either way, that character will become more prominent in the stories for an unrelated reason (though obviously not to the same degree as the six from the MoM) and keep Pansy on Harry's radar.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 11:36 am (#376 of 496)

I don't think it will be too hard.

Think of the comments Sirius made about Voldy's first rise to power. He said that quite a few people thought Voldy was on the right track with the pure-blood stuff, but then things went a bit far.

We have seen Pansy insult people for all kinds of reasons but NEVER because they weren't pure-bloods. This has always made me think that she is NOT the child of a Death Eater. I'm sure that she is a pure-blood, because I cannot believe that Draco would have taken her to the Ball otherwise. I think she is fiercely loyal to her House and to those in it.

However - now that Voldy is back, she is going to have to decide how far that loyalty goes.

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total hatred - Oct 8, 2004 11:43 am (#377 of 496)

I think Pansy likes to hang out with "bad boys". All Harry needs to do is show that he can be "bad" and shame Draco in front of many people. You know the James Potter routine. It will more effective if Snape is watching.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 12:07 pm (#378 of 496)

I've got that Seinfeld episode where George pretended he was a "bad boy" to get this girl. "I'm a bootlegger, baby!"

Harry has shamed Draco at Quidditch enough. He's jinxed him beyond recognition. I don't think Pansy needs to be convinced that Harry is talented.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 8, 2004 12:35 pm (#379 of 496)

haymoni said: "Think of the comments Sirius made about Voldy's first rise to power. He said that quite a few people thought Voldy was on the right track with the pure-blood stuff, but then things went a bit far."

I was thinking of that too. Now that the Ministry admits that Voldemort is back, Pansy--and a lot of other people-- are going to have to take a look at where they are and what they are doing, and decide if they really want to be party to killing and torture. Sure Pansy is nasty and unlikable (that's my opinion of her) but is she capable of supporting that? We'll find out soon enough.

I realize having Death Eater parents is going to skew children's morals, but as all the young characters mature and can think and make decisions independently, they become more responsible for who they are and what they do. While getting rid of parental baggage is difficult, I think it possible for at least some of the Death Eater kids to start questioning their parents morals and asking themselves if that's what they truly want to be like when they grow-up. The same goes if their parents are just pure-blood bigots, too.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 12:45 pm (#380 of 496)

Yes - there is a big difference between the blood-thirsty, blindly-loyal Death Eaters and pure-blood bigots like the Blacks.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 8, 2004 1:23 pm (#381 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
I do agree with Haymoni. Harry has proven Draco a loser time and time again. Pansy has had plenty of oppurtunity to notice.

However, I do think that being a pure-blood bigot is the first step to becoming a blood-thirsty Death Eater.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 10:30 pm (#382 of 496)

Sirius was the son of some pretty big bigots and he rejected their views.

I suppose Pansy could as well.

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total hatred - Oct 8, 2004 10:43 pm (#383 of 496)

Pansy only need to choose to reform in order for her to reform. Even how bad your parents are, you always has a choice either to follow or not to follow their foot steps

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Chemyst - Oct 9, 2004 7:35 pm (#384 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Pansy only need to choose to reform in order for her to reform.
Yes, choice is a starting point. The difficulty is that so far, she has benefited from being exactly as she is. As a Slytherin she gets preferential treatment in one of Hogwarts toughest subjects. She has girlfriends that follow her (lapdogs to a pug?). At the Yule Ball she was seen wearing what is probably the wizard equivalent of a designer gown, (A Malkin original?) and hooked one of the coolest guys in her house as her date. She got great press in Rita's article. In OP she was chosen Prefect, appeared to be head cheer leader, and received special privileges of being in the IS. At this point, not only does she lack motive to desire change, she is enjoying rewards for staying who she is. Why would she ever choose to give all this up?

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Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2004 7:30 am (#385 of 496)

That's certainly a bunch of excellent points, Chemyst.

If she's pro-Voldemort, then she wouldn't want to change at all because she would think he would be a shoe-in to win.

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Hermy-own - Oct 10, 2004 6:02 am (#386 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"Why would she ever choose to give all this up?"

As far as Pansy is concerned, the rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin is just that - a rivalry.

For Draco, on the other hand, this is far more than rivalry. For instance, we know that his judgement of others tends to be influenced by the "purity" of their blood: so far he has only accepted "pure-bloods;" apparently, "muggle-borns" and "half-bloods" are a rung below his level.

Lord Voldemort has returned and his Death Eaters have been exposed. All -- including Pansy -- will soon see what Draco et al really stand for. Pansy, along with the other "good" Slytherins (Theodore Nott, perhaps?) will realise that siding with Draco equates to siding with Voldemort, and this will give them reason to reconsider their attitudes.

Yes, the Slytherin in Pansy would persuade her to remain loyal to her house and, yes, she will think twice about losing her special privileges; but, the thought of associating with Voldemort's regime will be enough to bring out the "goodness" that lies deep inside.

So, in conclusion, I predict that Pansy will abandon anything that potentially ties her to Lord Voldemort's regime, even if this means losing the associated privileges that come with being the top Slytherin girl. Furthermore, the altruistic nature of her transformation would serve to faciliate her acceptance by Harry, his friends, and all those fighting the "good fight."

Hermy.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 10, 2004 8:01 am (#387 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 10, 2004 8:04 am
If she's pro-Voldemort, then she wouldn't want to change at all because she would think he would be a shoe-in to win.

You are correct. IF she is pro-Voldemort, she would not want to change.

However, does being pro-Slytherin automatically make one pro-Voldemort? I would think it more the other way 'round.

Chemyst's point concerning all that she would have to be willing to give up is a good one. Not that she WOULD have to give it up, mind you, but she must be willing to do so. That possible outcome would certainly weigh heavy on her mind.

And if she is willing to make that sacrifice, would that not help increase her stock in the eyes of Harry and his friends? And (if I may be permitted to mix threads) it would certainly help mark her as a candidate for Alpha Female in the 'ship race, would it not?

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2004 1:06 pm (#388 of 496)

It's not just willingness to switch sides. Pansy might really want to change over to Harry's side, but she might be equally afraid that her life and her standing in her house might be at stake.

If she's not willing to give up her life for a cause that she has hitherto opposed, she's past redemption in my eyes. Following Snape's example is the least she could do.

And, of course, Harry will put her on the front lines to confirm or disprove her courage and loyalty, just as Dumbledore is doing to Snape. I must say, if Pansy sees it through, Snape will be impressed, and her standing in her house won't be at stake at all.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 10, 2004 6:37 pm (#389 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 10, 2004 6:40 pm
Pansy might really want to change over to Harry's side, but she might be equally afraid that her life and her standing in her house might be at stake.

She will have to choose. Is that not one of the major themes of the series?

So far she has chosen to be a snot. If she does not choose to change, she will remain a snot, and I hope she and Giant-slug boy will be very happy together. :-)

But I rather suspect she'll change. :-D

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total hatred - Oct 10, 2004 7:26 pm (#390 of 496)

I agree to you Prefect Marcus. Pansy might be a snot but deep inside there is a bit of goodness in her. Look at the Buckbeak scene in the PoA, she showed a bit of compassion.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2004 8:45 pm (#391 of 496)

Q: Why should Pansy be buried a hundred meters deep?

A: Because, deep down, she's a really good person.

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total hatred - Oct 11, 2004 2:39 pm (#392 of 496)

That is why she looks like a pug. She was buried upside down or maybe fell head first

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 11, 2004 3:08 pm (#393 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Careful, people. Now you are starting sound just like her.

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total hatred - Oct 11, 2004 3:27 pm (#394 of 496)

That is why I am H/P shipper. I am starting to be a bit sarcastic.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 12, 2004 5:55 am (#395 of 496)

Careful, people. Now you are starting sound just like her-- Prefect Marcus

That sort of thing can happen when you get caught up in the moment and caught up with the crowd.

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Chemyst - Oct 18, 2004 5:31 pm (#396 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
~ tagline from Disney's Mulan cartoon

I'm sensing a pattern to some recent avatars.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 18, 2004 7:08 pm (#397 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 18, 2004 7:09 pm
I don't know why you would say that, Chemyst.

*ahem*

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KWeldon - Oct 19, 2004 6:44 am (#398 of 496)

And remember what Mulan's father said about that same flower being a late bloomer? Nice connection, Marcus!!

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 19, 2004 10:48 am (#399 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 19, 2004 10:49 am
KWeldon - And remember what Mulan's father said about that same flower being a late bloomer? Nice connection, Marcus!!

I love that line!

Being the father of two daughters -- one a senior in high school, the other safely through college and happily married -- that part of the movie always gets to me. You could tell whoever wrote it either was a daughter of a loving father, or a loving father of a daughter of that critical age.

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KWeldon - Oct 19, 2004 11:08 am (#400 of 496)

The line always got to me because I am the daughter of a loving father. It was poignant how a man living in a society so concerned with proper roles for individuals would have been so understanding that Mulan was different.

On another off-topic note, I'm shocked that you have older kids. I pictured you as younger.

On topic, um, well, I've covered everything I want to say about our Miss Pansy at the moment.

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Pansy Parkinson Empty Pansy Parkinson (Post 401 to 450)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:35 am

Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 11:43 am (#401 of 496)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 25, 2004 11:44 am
One very odd Pansy moment occurs during the raid on the D.A. in OoP. Harry exits the room and runs for his life. A short distance away, he gets tripped by Draco. Draco calls out "I've got one!" Almost immediately later, Umbridge shows up.

Later on in Dumbledore's office, Umbridge shows the membership list that she says Pansy obtained from the Room of Requirement at Umbridge's request.

So Pansy would have just had enough time to dash into the room, grab the first thing she sees -- a membership list pinned to a wall would be just such an item -- run out and deliver it to Umbridge just as they heard Draco's shout.

The question I keep asking myself is why Pansy wasn't with Umbridge when she ran to the sound of Draco's voice? Are we to believe that Pansy, hard on the heels of Umbridge and full of the spirit of the hunt, just sat there when they hear Draco's shout? This simply does not make sense no matter how you look at it.

If she was still evil-Pansy, she would have wanted to gloat over the prize. If she was totally reformed Pansy, she would have come full of concern. If she was only neutral, she would have come in the spirit of the hunt and/or out of curiousity, if nothing else.

So why was she off-stage?

Did Umbridge send her elsewhere? That is a possibility, but it makes little sense, either. There would have been little time to give instructions, and any such directions would have been out of earshot of Draco. Umbridge later gives Draco instructions to use Pansy in search the girl's bathrooms for escaping D.A. members. She did not tell Draco where to find Pansy, though. Hogwarts is a big place. By the time he tracked down Pansy, the D.A.'s would have escaped. So it is unlikely she sent her elsewhere.

The only explanation I can think of is Rowling didn't want Pansy on-stage at the moment. And the only reason for that is to do so would have shown us something Rowling didn't want to show at that moment.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 11:48 am (#402 of 496)

Maybe Pansy was in awe of what she saw in the Room of Requirement and went back to check it out.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 11:53 am (#403 of 496)

The question I keep asking myself is why Pansy wasn't with Umbridge when she ran to the sound of Draco's voice? Are we to believe that Pansy, hard on the heels of Umbridge and full of the spirit of the hunt, just sat there when they hear Draco's shout? This simply does not make sense no matter how you look at it.

Maybe she was simply scouting around looking for more DA members. Just because Draco found one person doesn't mean the search would stop. It makes sense to me.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 25, 2004 12:29 pm (#404 of 496)

The only explanation I can think of is Rowling didn't want Pansy on-stage at the moment. And the only reason for that is to do so would have shown us something Rowling didn't want to show at that moment.

I agree with this explanation Marcus, although I don't like it very much. Let me explain. I love HP and JKR. (Duh!) As such a big fan, I allow myself license to criticize which is why I post a lot in the "glitches/struck you as odd" section. So, leaving Pansy off here is roughly akin, I think, to having McGonnagal and everyone sort of "forget" that Lupin was a good buddy of Sirius and James when Harry overheard them talking at the Three Broomsticks. It doesn't make sense except unless you just figure that that is what JKR needed at the moment.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 12:37 pm (#405 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
I'm sorry, Weeny, I don't buy it. Unless Umbridge called her off and sent her elsewhere, the thrill of the hunt would have driven Pansy to follow Umbridge. It is just human nature.

I think Haymoni's thought is more likely. She could have been distracted by the wonders of the RoR. But that would imply that she was more interested in learning DADA than hunting down possible miscreants for Umbridge.

Interesting thought, that.

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TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 1:14 pm (#406 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
But, as the only person in the Room of Requirement at that moment, wouldn't the room have been attuned to Pansy's wants and needs? The room would no longer have been the DA training room, but "Pansy's special place."

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KWeldon - Oct 25, 2004 1:16 pm (#407 of 496)

Pansy would have had to known how to evoke the room for her purpose. She'd have to walk back in front of the door three times, thinking about what she wanted, or something like that, right?

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TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 1:18 pm (#408 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
The room evolved itself for Dumbledore's need with out his knowledge of it? It may not have changed completely, but it would have changed some. We know it changed some, because Pansy found the roster.

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Tessa's Dad - Oct 25, 2004 1:37 pm (#409 of 496)

Tired Old Bat Bogey
Pansy could have been thinking about finding something that would impress DJU more than Draco’s capture of Harry. The RoR provided the List. The list was more impressive, it led to Dumbledore’s flight.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 1:45 pm (#410 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
None of us are experts on the Room of Requirement. However, we know that the room doesn't disappear immediately. After the first DA meeting, the trio waited outside and watched the door dissolve into the wall. It took a little time.

On the night of the raid, Harry didn't hang around. He RAN! Umbridge (with Pansy in tow) had to have arrived on the scene immediately afterwards. Otherwise the door would have vanished.

I have a difficult time believing that the room would change instantly into whatever was needed. For example, if Harry was leaving after a D.A. meeting and he met Dobby leading a suffering Winky up to the room; if Harry held the door open for Dobby, would the room change completely into the House-elf drunk-tank that Dobby has commented on? We simply do not know.

I think what happened is Pansy went in "requiring" evidence, and the room provided it. Were the books, dark magic detectors, and mats still there? We don't know. If they weren't, then there is no ready explanation as to why Pansy didn't follow Umbridge.

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mike miller - Oct 25, 2004 2:49 pm (#411 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Marcus - You may have hit upon the very moment of Pansy beginning to change her ways. You have made a compelling arguement for Pansy's potential "attitude adjustment" and her notable absense from the back half of OotP. My current re-read only has me up to Hagrid's Tale and to this point Pansy is her usual self.

However, I tend to agree with a couple of the other posters (KWeldon and Haymoni I think) that we will need to see some kind of life changing event to make Pansy's turn around both sincere and believable. If I had to guess, Pansy will lose a parent (family member at the least) at the hands of Voldemort or the DE's. It won't be the first time that those either in Voldemort's service or closely aligned to his cause would have been killed by their master. Voldemort is certainly capable of such an act and it would provide more than enough motivation for Pansy to switch sides. Call it my prediction as the catalyst for the Harry/Pansy 'ship.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 3:03 pm (#412 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 25, 2004 3:07 pm
Mike Miller - My current re-read only has me up to Hagrid's Tale and to this point Pansy is her usual self.

In my opinion, she is worse than her usual self at that point. Up to the Quibbler article, she (along with a good chunk of the wizarding world) thought that Harry was crazy, just seeking attention, trying to stir up trouble, or all three. To top it all off, he is throwing around accusations that hurt the families of some of her Slytherin friends.

Surfice it to say, her opionion of Harry is not good. She lets him, his friends, even his favorite teacher have it with both barrels.

The last we see of Pansy the Kurst is the beginning of Harry and Cho's Valentine's Day date. She leads her Slytherin girl friends in giving Harry and Cho a hard time.

The Quibbler article came out a very short time later, and we never see Pansy on-stage again. Instead, we see puzzling things such as this little bit, and her odd absence from the showdown in Umbridge's office.

EDIT: Will she have an 'Life-altering' experience. Perhaps, but I actually hope she doesn't. I would respect her more if she saw the error of her ways by herself and not be forced to do so.

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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 3:17 pm (#413 of 496)

<>

Don't insult Bellatrix Weeny Owl! She never had "a face like a pug!" :p

B****! The quote function isn't working!

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mike miller - Oct 25, 2004 3:18 pm (#414 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Marcus - I agree that it would say more about Pansy's character if she came to her own conclusions about Draco, the DE's and Harry. She would still have to overcome the believability test. Would Harry and Co. take her seriously? How would she convince them of her sincerity? I know it's just easier to create the major event to move the story forward, but let's face it, JKR is running out of time and student romance is far from the central theme of the books. I'm still betting on the traumatic event if Pansy's to change her colors.

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Catherine - Oct 25, 2004 3:22 pm (#415 of 496)

Canon Seeker
The question I keep asking myself is why Pansy wasn't with Umbridge when she ran to the sound of Draco's voice? Are we to believe that Pansy, hard on the heels of Umbridge and full of the spirit of the hunt, just sat there when they hear Draco's shout? This simply does not make sense no matter how you look at it--Marcus

How do you know she wasn't with Umbridge? Umbridge certainly refers to Pansy's presence by saying that "Miss Parkinson can "do the girls' ones" (p.609). Or, if Pansy were not right there with Umbridge, perhaps she was still getting the list of DA members for Umbridge.

No, I don't imagine that Pansy just "sat there" when Draco shouted that he had Harry. I imagine that she smiled or looked satisfied or looked eager to go look in the loo for other "guilty" students to bring to Umbridge.

Will she have an 'Life-altering' experience. Perhaps, but I actually hope she doesn't. I would respect her more if she saw the error of her ways by herself and not be forced to do so. --Marcus

Does this mean that you respect her now? ;-)

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legolas - Oct 25, 2004 3:29 pm (#416 of 496)

The doorway dissapeared almost instantly into the wall. It would suggest that Pansy was standing right outside the door to get in right away. But nobody saw her when they ran from the room.

Maybe Dobby was allowed to overhear things like the Gillyweed incident in GOF. Pansy could have watched how he got into the room to be able to break in and get the list.

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Chemyst - Oct 25, 2004 5:05 pm (#417 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Does this mean that you respect her now? ;-) lol - that sounds more like something Marcus would ask, Catherine!

Well, this discussion has sent me back to the book, and quite frankly I don't see what there is to fuss over. Since Umbridge grabbed Harry right after Draco tripped him, she delegated further searching to Draco, suggesting that he have Pansy check the girls' bathroom. But if Pansy had gone there first, the door to the RoR probably would have disappeared. Harry had already slammed it shut by the way, so the greater mystery is did Pansy reopen it herself, and how? Because she "required" evidence? If the room reopened because Pansy desperately wanted to obtain evidence against Harry, then this is no proof reform has begun. (It seems most likely that Umbridge did not get the list until she left DD's office to get Marietta. )

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Catherine - Oct 25, 2004 5:23 pm (#418 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Does this mean that you respect her now? ;-) lol - that sounds more like something Marcus would ask, Catherine! --Chemyst

I know. I thought someone might appreciate that!

Thanks, Chemyst, for noticing.

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KWeldon - Oct 25, 2004 5:36 pm (#419 of 496)

I agree with a couple of the other posters (KWeldon and Haymoni I think) that we will need to see some kind of life changing event to make Pansy's turn around both sincere and believable

Mike,

I'd like to clarify what I meant in my posts. Although I think she may have a lightning bolt moment, it may not necessarily be from a life-changing event. When I realized that I loved my husband, it came on rather suddenly, but not due to something major happening in my life. Harry, I think, would have it come on rather slowly.

However, like Marcus I would prefer that she come around on her own. But, I also suspect that time is running out.

Love your avatar. He's still big here in the Lone Star State.

KWeldon

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Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 7:58 pm (#420 of 496)

**snickering with Catherine and Chemyst**

I have a difficult time believing that the room would change instantly into whatever was needed

The room gives what is required, and one bit of evidence for that is when things were noisy and Harry wanted a whistle. A whistle appeared. If Pansy went into the room and required evidence, the room would give it.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 9:29 pm (#421 of 496)

How did the other DA members find the room the first meeting? After Harry, Ron and Hermione did their wishful thinking, the room was filled with DADA stuff. Did someone stand in the doorway directing people in? Can't remember. It's 12:30 am and the books are in my son's room.

I kind of got the impression that people just came in. If everyone had just left, I would think that the room would still be intact.

Now, could Pansy find it again? That is the question.

Also, since Hermione had brought the parchment into the room from the outside (The Room of Requirement did not supply it.) and left it behind, Pansy may have walked into a bare room or a broom closet (like the Twins) and found the parchment laying there.
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Quidam - Oct 26, 2004 12:41 am (#422 of 496)

The following is taken from JKR's World Book Day Chat;

Magwitch: If you could be any female character in harry potter and the Philosopher's stone which one would you be JK Rowling replies -> Hermione. Definitely not Pansy Parkinson.

That reinforces my belief that Pansy will not change.

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TomProffitt - Oct 26, 2004 4:42 am (#423 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
"Also, since Hermione had brought the parchment into the room from the outside (The Room of Requirement did not supply it.) and left it behind, Pansy may have walked into a bare room or a broom closet (like the Twins) and found the parchment laying there." --- haymoni

The reference to false Moody's Foe Glass in one of the descriptions led me to believe that the RoR was capable of transporting/teleporting/apparating objects from elsewhere in the castle into the RoR. I would not be surprised if the roster had been safely locked away in Hermione's trunk back in the Griffyndor Tower prior to Pansy requiring it.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 26, 2004 5:37 am (#424 of 496)

Previous posts in the past have suggested that Pansy may have a secret crush on Harry and as a result tends to insult any girl who happens to hang around Harry. Perhaps Pansy's motive was not to get Harry in trouble but to get Hermione and Cho in trouble. If she figured out that the DA was Hermione's idea and not Harry's it would show she is quite clever. I realize there isn't much proof of this.

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Hermy-own - Oct 26, 2004 10:28 am (#425 of 496)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Magwitch: If you could be any female character in harry potter and the Philosopher's stone which one would you be?
JK Rowling replies -> Hermione. Definitely not Pansy Parkinson.

Quidam,

If Marcus' theory is correct, Rowling would have had no reason to show Pansy in any good light at the time of the chat.

Moreover, the fact JKR even refers to Pansy makes me question what she's really up to ...

Hermy.

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KWeldon - Oct 26, 2004 10:40 am (#426 of 496)


Hermy,

Good point! Why mention her at all? The question merely asked which female character she would be, not which one she wouldn't be. She could be trying to keep Pansy's name on our radars, so to speak.

KWeldon

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Gregory welch - Oct 26, 2004 12:54 pm (#427 of 496)

In response to the World day chat quote,

Notice the question asked "which female character would you like to be in THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE"?

maybe Rowling was hinting that,sure she was bad then but now she's going to change in later books.What do you guys think?

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Good Evans - Oct 26, 2004 1:01 pm (#428 of 496)

Practically perfect in every way
I am delighted someone picked this point up - I agree that Pansy is thoroughly Slytherin and will not change. She is the future Mrs Draco Malfoy (if they both live that long!!!!!!!!)


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Prefect Marcus - Oct 26, 2004 1:02 pm (#429 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 26, 2004 1:04 pm
Quidam,

Is it not interesting that she mentioned both of those young ladies, not just Hermione?

I think it might be a freudian slip. She is thinking, "I want to be the Alpha female, but Pansy takes over as Alpha female later. I can't let them know that." She says, "Definitely Hermione. Never Pansy. Certainly not evil, terrible, vicious Pansy. No, nobody would ever want to be like her. Not a soul. In fact, I don't even know why you brought her up. She is terribly unlikable. Who would ever fall for her?"

Well, you get the point. :-)

EDIT: Don't worry, Good Evans. Most of us H/P 'shippers were brought into it kicking and screaming, fighting it every step of the way. Unforunately, it makes too much sense. The more you look at it, the more reasons you find to support it.

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total hatred - Oct 26, 2004 1:13 pm (#430 of 496)

I find that interesting. It is still irrelevant to the ship discussion. Ship sucess is not measured just because the author can relate to certain character but how the author set up the story

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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2004 2:05 pm (#431 of 496)

The more you look at it, the more reasons you find to support it.

Yet oddly enough the more I look at it, the more I find reasons not to think it will happen (Pansy reforming or being with Harry).

My main reason has nothing to do with liking or disliking Pansy, as I've said before, but because JKR needs to have pro-Voldemort supporters at Hogwarts who show just how bad the Wizarding World will be if he wins the war. Not all pro-Voldemort supporters will be Slytherins, but Draco and Pansy seem to be more suited for the roles than any others.

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TomProffitt - Oct 26, 2004 6:37 pm (#432 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
" The more you look at it, the more reasons you find to support it." --- Prefect Marcus

No, no, no, Marcus, you've established a clear possibility, but have yet to show me that it's a strong probability.
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KWeldon - Oct 26, 2004 7:08 pm (#433 of 496)

No, no, no, Marcus, you've established a clear possibility, but have yet to show me that it's a strong probability.

Tom, At what point does it become a probability over a possibility? I'd say VERY few things are probabilities in this series, except that Voldemort will be defeated somehow, surely. We can't even be sure that Harry himself will live.

As I have delineated on the H/P ship thread, and my apologies for those who have seen this before, but we know the following:

1. JKR implied that a ship for Harry would cut to the heart of the series and that no one has ever guessed it, ruling out the usual suspects. (granted, others have questioned the context of this interpretation)

2. JKR has drawn Harry’s reaction to Pansy over the years as one of indifference in situations that would otherwise provoke him. That is, he has never been antagonistic towards her, even though she has acted particularly nasty to his dearest friends.

3. JKR has written Pansy differently than other “bad guys” and has provided glimpses of her femininity, an appealing trait.

4. Pansy ended up with antlers—a nod towards the Potters—at the end of OotP. Not tentacles, not antennae, not horns----antlers.

5. Harry mislabeled Venus as being Mars (mistook the object of his love for being a foe) in his Astronomy O.W.L.S.

6. Pansy's name may refer to the Parkinson who is an historic British social/political reformer, suggesting Pansy will reform her attitude---a reformer who just happened to be the namesake for the disease of the same name, having written a treatise “Essay on the Shaking Palsy. This is suggestive that Pansy will reform, which is crucial to a H/P ship.

7. Pansy is curiously absent from the book on-stage in OotP post-Quibbler article, which could be setting her up as viewing Harry and co. in a different light.

(Marcus, have I missed anything?)

Does this make a H/P probable? Probably not, but ask us again after HP6 comes out. Wink

KWeldon

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TomProffitt - Oct 27, 2004 4:53 am (#434 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
At the risk of being off topic or on the wrong thread (but it does continue a valid discussion), I see only two 'ships with probability as opposed to possibility:

Ernie/Hannah: the two are almost always referred to together (like we see Lavender and Parvati), I have come to think of them as "a pair." Yes, they may be "just friends," but they are a set.

Ron/Hermione: Hermione's jealousy is not as obvious as Ron's, but it's there in GoF. No, it's not proven, but it's above the possibility threshold.

The Pansy/Harry 'ship doesn't have the same strength as two other possibilities (Harry/Ginny & Harry/Luna)(It does beat out Harry/Hermione in my book). Until I can say it makes more sense to me than other possible 'ships it doesn't become probable (right now, nothing is probable).

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 6:49 am (#435 of 496)

At the risk of continuing off topic, I'd agree that Ron/Hermione is above the possibility threshold. In fact, if it doesn't come to pass I will be extremely disappointed in JKR for toying with us.

I don't know about Ernie/Hannah.

I would argue that Pansy/Harry doesn't seem to have the strength as the others because JKR is purposely keeping this one on the back burner to surprise us all....the clues are there, though.

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Ronan - Oct 27, 2004 7:33 am (#436 of 496)

Wow, I'm surprised with the amount of clues pointing towards H/P (Specially whoever came up with Venus/Mars clue should be a detective!! It sounds far-fetched but wonderfully clever anyway). I think JKR said somewhere that Harry's love would be someone we've met from the beginning of the book... this seems to point at "the usual suspects"... Pansy? Well, she's mentioned in the first book, though very briefly. Will that count?

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 8:09 am (#437 of 496)

Ronan,

To be fair, others have interpreted the Venus/Mars clue differently, although I can't remember exactly what those interpretations were.

Also, I've heard references to a remark that JKR said Harry's ship is someone from the beginning of the books, but I've never seen the actual quote. Do you know it, by chance? I'm always the skeptic on JRK "quotes."

KWeldon

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Czarina II - Oct 27, 2004 8:49 am (#438 of 496)

Going back to JKR saying that she wouldn't want to be Pansy Parkinson...

It could very well be that Pansy is going to end up with Draco, but that he will be killed and she will be ostracized or something of the sort. JKR could simply have mentioned her because of all the female characters, Pansy will end up suffering.

Or it could be because in PS, JKR would rather have been a smart know-it-all than a spiteful brat.

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Chemyst - Oct 27, 2004 9:17 am (#439 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Ronan,
To be fair, others have interpreted the Venus/Mars clue differently, although I can't remember exactly what those interpretations were. -KWeldon.

KWeldon herself posted the earliest Venus / Mars theory (that shows up in search, at least.) A sizable group of comments contine thoughout the August 10th posts on "Harry's 'ship uniting the houses" thread.

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 9:23 am (#440 of 496)

Thanks, Chemyst, for noting where in the thread the alternative explanations are located. I would encourage anyone to see the other sides of the coin.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 27, 2004 9:25 am (#441 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 27, 2004 9:28 am
K,

You forgot Catherine's hint. Harry wore bottle green (a hue of a Slytherin color) to the Yule ball. Pansy wore pale pink (a hue of a Gryffindor color) to the Yule ball.

Speaking of the Yule ball, Harry noted that Draco wore robes that made him look like a vicar. In the same paragraph, Harry noted that Pansy wore very frilly pale pink robes, but made no editorial comment concerning her robes. This is all the more interesting due to Harry's reaction nine months later to Umbridge's faux femininity. He was revolted by it from day one. Yet he had no reaction to Pansy (a girl many people place in the same league as Umbridge) wearing extremely feminine robes.

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 9:30 am (#442 of 496)

Marcus,

Perhaps I subconciously excluded that hint. As I think I've mentioned before, I would think that was more of a clue from JKR if the colors were a bit more non-standard than green for a boy and pink for a girl. That is, if Harry was wearing orange and orange signified Slytherin, and if Pansy was wearing brown and brown signified Gryffindor, I'd be more jazzed about that clue.

For what it's worth.

KWeldon

P.S. Surely Catherine will be repulsed at the thought of you abscribing a hint for this theory to her!

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 27, 2004 10:03 am (#443 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
No, Catherine is an honest opponent. If you make a valid point, she will acknowledge it, even if she disagrees with it.

I also feel squimish about all foreshadow, even the antlers clue. I feel the exact same way about it as Hermione and McGonnagal feel about Divination. I only view it as supporting evidence, not primary evidence.

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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 27, 2004 11:11 am (#444 of 496)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
JKR's comment could have just been a red herring to keep us occupied for another few weeks.

Mikie

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 11:28 am (#445 of 496)

I also feel squimish about all foreshadow

Marcus,

I remember you saying that before. In other words, you think JKR's writing style regarding Pansy is stronger evidence than the antlers clue, right?

KWeldon

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 27, 2004 12:03 pm (#446 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
KWeldon - In other words, you think JKR's writing style regarding Pansy is stronger evidence than the antlers clue, right?

Right.

Symbols are a bit dodgy, in my opinion. You can make anything mean anything. For instance, the antlers may be symbolic of a future 'ship. They may also be just antlers.

Finding symbols in everything might get one good grades on a literary test, but its value in determining future actions of an author is limited. Think Mark Evans here.

That is not to say that a series of possible symbols all adding up to pointing a certain direction isn't interesting, but they are at best the icing on the cake, the sauce on the goose, the tie on the shirt.

This is all my personal opinion, of course. Others take the symbols to be the most important. That is their right. :-)

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TomProffitt - Oct 27, 2004 12:49 pm (#447 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
I didn't expect such a broad response. I'm familiar with all of the evidence attributed by the H/P faction.

My views on symbolism are very similar to Marcus's views.

There is a threshold of evidence that has to be crossed to bring a theory from possible to probable. Jo has has not given us enough evidence to advance any theory on Harry's future 'ship beyond that threshold.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 27, 2004 1:13 pm (#448 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
TomProffitt - There is a threshold of evidence that has to be crossed to bring a theory from possible to probable. Jo has has not given us enough evidence to advance any theory on Harry's future 'ship beyond that threshold.

The trouble with that stance, Tom, is that Rowling is playing her cards very close to her chest. She isn't about to give out any hard, solid evidence on Harry's 'ship, any more than she gave out hard, solid evidence about Scabbers true condition, until she is good and ready. All we can do is look for hints in the text.

You stated that R/H is a probable. To that, I have to agree. Of course, one needs to ask oneself WHY Rowling is being so obvious on that one and not on the others. I fear that gets into the "Who will die in Books 6 and 7" thread, but I digress.

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TomProffitt - Oct 27, 2004 4:19 pm (#449 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
When I talk about possibility and probability I am talking about what would surprise me and what wouldn't.

If I consider a theory to not be possible, or perhaps unreasonable would be a better description, I would be greatly surprised if it occurred.

If it's possible but not probable, I would not feel surprise whether or not it occurred.

If it is probable I would feel surprise if it did not occur.

There's nothing wrong with the stance based upon Jo's writing style. She hasn't given us the information. There are a great many things on which she hasn't given us the information. It is something we will have to wait and see.

I'm not bashing the theory so much as I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if you were right or if you were wrong.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 27, 2004 4:28 pm (#450 of 496)

"any more than she gave out hard, solid evidence about Scabbers true condition"

But she did. She said early on in book 3 (when Harry and friends were in Diagon Alley, and Ron was getting his rat tonic) that Scabbers was missing a toe.

Of course, few would remember that by the time Ron got around to saying that all that was left of Pete was his finger...

So, I guess all the evidence we need for a turnaround on Pansy's part is a "missing toe". I think that a few have been given, although they involve irrelevant or barely relevant parallels.

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:37 am

total hatred - Oct 28, 2004 3:31 pm (#451 of 496)
I agree.To most of us, it might be insignificant but if you analyze them closely, it might be major clue. Most of you made predictions based on what appears to be obvious but never bothered to read closely. Based on my observation, JKR might wrote it down to confuse us, leaving the true plot hidden.

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wwtMask - Oct 29, 2004 10:27 am (#452 of 496)

The hardest thing to get my mind around on the issue of the H/P ship is that her turn around from a nasty and hateful girl to someone that Harry could realistically hook up with seems like a monumental task. The idea that she would change her personality so drastically to be compatible with Harry's, all of her own free will, seems hard to believe. You might draw parallels to James and Lily but, let's be honest, James's change was not nearly as drastic as Pansy's would need to be. She has shown outright malevolence towards Harry and his friends throughout the series. The best that can be mustered in her defense is that she was not present in the latter portion of the book to further persecute Harry et al. I just can't believe it, despite the well argued points of Marcus.

More to the point, where are the subtle or even not so subtle hints of any sort of interest from either side? At least with Cho we got a hint of where things might be headed two books before things came to a head. At this rate, if we ever see anything, it won't be till the tail end of book 7, and that's assuming that all the clues that have been expounded upon in the H/P thread are indeed hints and not just hopeful speculation.

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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 29, 2004 11:45 am (#453 of 496)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
wwtMask - I love your posts! Very well thought out and directly to the point. I personally have deep doubt about a H/P ship as I can't believe the books are going to cover everything that needs to be expoused and leave time for the complete turnaround of Pansy.

Mikie

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 29, 2004 11:51 am (#454 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
wwtMask,

Suppose Rowling had written the following:

"Professor, I got one!" cried Draco.

Harry heard the rapid patter of approaching feet. He looked around to see Umbridge running towards him, a look a maniacal triumphant spread across her face. Right behind her was Pansy Parkinson.

"So, we've caught the famous Harry Potter!" trumpetted Umbridge as she roughly drug Harry to his feet.

Harry glanced over at Pansy. She seemed to be nervous, not sure what to do. Her eyes were flicking back and forth between Umbridge and Harry.

Considering the antipathy she has continuously shown towards Harry and friends, that sudden unsureness on Pansy's part would be a major red flag, would it not?

So, assuming that Rowling intends to redeem Pansy, how would YOU hint at it without giving it away before she wants to?

Please point to once, just once in the five books where Harry reacts to Pansy with hatred, malevolence, dislike, or resentment. This inspite of her repeated assaults upon Harry and his friends -- attack of the most mean-spirited, vicious kind. The absolute worse anyone can find is when Harry ignores her when she asks about Hermione missing CoMC. He doesn't want her to have the satisfaction of knowing about Hermione's pain. Compare that mild response to Lily's intense reaction in OoP.

The fact of matter is Rowling has always written Harry's reaction to Pansy in neutral, or close to neutral terms. Pansy is the only one of his antagonists so blessed. How would you explain that?

BTW, referring to Pansy as "Pug-faced" does not count here. Harry never thinks that, only the Narrator.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 29, 2004 1:16 pm (#455 of 496)

"Harry never thinks that"

Does Harry ever see her as anything other than pug-faced?

I fail to see how "Harry never thinks that." There's no proof that Harry agrees or disagrees with the narrator.

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TomProffitt - Oct 29, 2004 1:31 pm (#456 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
"Please point to once, just once in the five books where Harry reacts to Pansy with hatred, malevolence, dislike, or resentment." --- Prefect Marcus

Correct me if I am wrong, Marcus, but Hermione is the only character who reacts to Pansy in anything approaching that matter.

I can see how a girl with a "pug face" at 11 could grow up to a 16 year old girl with a "cute little button nose," if you think that's important (Harry and Ron, like most teenage boys are rather shallow about that kind of thing themselves)(me, I like a nose with more character, but that's me).

When I was in college I made a pretty abrupt and dramatic change from a Slytherin type to a Gryffindor type (it took about two days)(it was all over a bad relationship). In adult life I've settled in to a "Proud to be a Hufflepuff" point of view.

People change, and change can be sudden, particularly at a young age where we are forming our world view and moral stances. Sometimes there is a point in life where something suddenly makes sense to you and you want to change who you are.

I have no trouble accepting the possibility of a change in Pansy at all. I just think it an unlikely course, with insufficient ground work. (I was going to say that we're lacking Jo's standard red herring, but both Pansy and Harry have had them.)

Nope, Hermione is the only real Pansy basher in the trio.

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wwtMask - Oct 29, 2004 1:48 pm (#457 of 496)

"So, assuming that Rowling intends to redeem Pansy, how would YOU hint at it without giving it away before she wants to?"

Well, if we have to look at it like that, many unnamed Slytherins are also vying for the part of "least likely person to be Harry's soul mate". I'd even put Millicent Bulstrode's name in the hat, as she seems on equal footing with Pansy where Harry is concerned (if I'm not mistaken, Harry never says she's ugly, the narrator says so). I'm not asking for a big sign or anything, but the slightest positive hint would work. Granted, this is the narrator talking, but the overall impression of Pansy, present or not, is negative. I'd also like to point out that, even while Harry doesn't explicitly say anything negative about her, the narrator is essentially looking at everything through his eyes, so I think it's right to take the narrator's view to be Harry's view (yes, the narrator slips away from Harry a couple times in the series, but it's quite rare).

Not having the books on hand with me, I can't be specific. I'm sure that you've mined the book for every reference to Pansy Parkinson, so I'll not belabor that point. I will say, however, that there are other plausible reasons for Harry's seeming neutrality on the subject of Ms. Parkinson, and they can be inferred, as can the speculative H/P ship, from the book. Perhaps Harry has, to himself, delegated the task of dealing with Pansy to Hermione, which makes sense to me as most boys are taught not to fight with girls anyway and Hermione is able to sort Pansy out better than Harry or Ron. Most often, when Pansy is in the picture, Harry is with Hermione, so that explanation would make sense. Harry might also have been preoccupied, as he was after Hermione went to the hospital wing for her hands. Or, consider that Pansy is almost always with Draco when Harry is around. Now who do you think gets more of Harry's attention, Draco or Pansy? Harry directs so much of his venom against Draco that he believes (correctly or incorrectly) that any Slytherin activity against him is precipitated by Draco. You must also consider that Harry, over the years, has learned to tune out the negativity directed at him, especially from the Slytherins. How else could he not bat an eye at all the snide remarks Pansy sent his way but could still manage to get so upset by other people making basically the same remarks? Quite frankly, I'd believe your theory more if he was not neutral to Pansy, at least that'd mean she was actually worthy of notice (like Draco or Snape).

I think it's a bit of a stretch to take Harry's seeming neutrality for anything other than thick skin, preoccupation, or a desire to let Hermione handle it. Once again, any hint at all would make this idea a bit more plausible. There are more positive hints for lesser named characters than for Pansy at this point, and there's certainly no indication that Pansy is any different now than she was before she stopped making dialogue appearances in OotP. Where you see Harry being undecided about Pansy, I see him being pretty much indifferent to her, and I am reminded somewhat of what Dumbly said about Sirius's attitude towards Kreacher. As you said, she was quite nasty to Harry, but Harry seemed to view her as not worthy of much attention.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 29, 2004 1:53 pm (#458 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Paulus Maximus - There's no proof that Harry agrees or disagrees with the narrator.

Precisely correct. So it is invalid to claim that Harry agrees with the narrator, correct?

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Catherine - Oct 29, 2004 4:03 pm (#459 of 496)

Canon Seeker
Nope, Hermione is the only real Pansy basher in the trio. --Tom Proffitt

Pansy has done far worse to Hermione than Hermione has to Pansy. Pansy, as of OoP, deserves Hermione's scathing comments.

So, if Ron isn't bashing Pansy, are we going to try to hook him up with Little Miss Antlers? Oops, wrong thread.

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wwtMask - Oct 29, 2004 4:09 pm (#460 of 496)

I disagree. The nature of limited third person omniscient is to tell the story from the viewpoint of a certain person. Even in regular third person omniscient, the narrator still rotates from the viewpoint of different characters. Otherwise, it sounds like the narrator is a separate person, with their own personal opinions, telling the story. Its interesting, though, that the narrator's opinions of what is going on match up with what Harry thinks; in fact, we often infer Harry's opinion from what the narrator says. Suggesting that the narrator is exerting his or her own personal spin on the story is dangerous. If we accept that conjecture, we must then wonder what Harry's opinions are on a myriad of things that he has not explicitly given one on, not the least of which is Ms. Parkinson.

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total hatred - Oct 29, 2004 4:20 pm (#461 of 496)

What did Hermione do to Pansy? I don't remember any nasty things Hermione has done to Pansy.

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Catherine - Oct 29, 2004 4:26 pm (#462 of 496)

Canon Seeker
I can't speak for Tom Proffitt, but he may be referring to Hermione's saying that Pansy was a "cow" and "thicker than a concussed troll."

I don't really blame Hermione, but she is, technically, saying something unflattering about Pansy. Of course, Hermione confines her remarks to close circle of friends, while Pansy likes to publicly air her insults, but no matter.

Hope that answers the question, Total Hatred.

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TomProffitt - Oct 29, 2004 4:30 pm (#463 of 496)

Bullheaded empiricist
"What did Hermione do to Pansy? I don't remember any nasty things Hermione has done to Pansy." --- total hatred

When I say that Hermione is a "Pansy basher," what I mean is that she is the only member of the trio who speaks ill of Pansy in specific. Which is an interesting contrast to her repeated defense of Severus Snape and Kreacher.

I don't think this necessarily supports Marcus's theory (or one about Ron & Pansy), I just felt it needed to be pointed out for the sake of accuracy.

EDIT: simul-posted with Catherine. Further clarification, it's akin to the way Ron speaks of Krum, it's not extremely bad, but it indicates dislike. This kind of dislike is not something we see in Harry.

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Chemyst - Oct 29, 2004 6:01 pm (#464 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Despite my ... um ... I don't know of a word for it amused distaste, perhaps? Dispite my amused distaste for the Harry/Pansy 'ship, I don't think time is running out just yet. Tom Proffitt gave his own example a few posts back. Besides, we have that whole forbidden forest & magic potion plot-construction available. Think: Midsummer Night's Dream.

Anyway, wwtMask expressed a desire for just one piece of foreshadowing. IF JKR has planted any, one of the better bets is that the clue occurs when Pansy accused Hermione of making love potions. This shows that the thought has at least entered Pansy's head. Devious people often accuse others of doing the evil that they'd do themselves.

and now back to the joys of debunking...

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 29, 2004 6:21 pm (#465 of 496)

"So it is invalid to claim that Harry agrees with the narrator, correct?"

Yes, and it is equally invalid to claim, as you do, that he disagrees with the narrator.

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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 29, 2004 8:20 pm (#466 of 496)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Considering how Pansy has treated our gang I think Hermione has shown great restraint to Pansy.

Mikie

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 29, 2004 9:13 pm (#467 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 30, 2004 8:09 am
Paulus - Yes, and it is equally invalid to claim, as you do, that he disagrees with the narrator.

I do? Where?

There are three possible positions to argue:
(1) We know Harry agrees with the Narrator that Pansy is pug-faced.
(2) We know Harry disagrees with the Narrator that Pansy is pug-faced.
(3) We don't know one way or the other.


I believe you will find that I have consistently argued #3. If not, I goofed somewhere.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 30, 2004 11:46 am (#468 of 496)

"BTW, referring to Pansy as "Pug-faced" does not count here. Harry never thinks that, only the Narrator."

That's more along the lines of argument 2 than argument 3. Argument 3 would be more like "We don't know whether Harry ever thinks that or not, only that the narrator does."

So, yes, you did goof somewhere.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 30, 2004 2:44 pm (#469 of 496)

"Anyone can cook"
Ah, the beauties of the English language. :-)

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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2004 1:20 pm (#470 of 496)

Back in business
Prefect Marcus -> The only explanation I can think of is Rowling didn't want Pansy on-stage [when Umbridge get Harry for illegal meeting]. And the only reason for that is to do so would have shown us something Rowling didn't want to show at that moment.

I also think Rowling wanted to hide something when she keep Pansy off-screen in this scene. She wanted the discovery of the list to remain unknown untill Umbridge show it and Pansy couldn't have kept her mouth shot. If Pansy really cared for Harry, she would have kept the list for herself, as the cunning Slytherin she is, and make sure her potential boyfriend doesn't get out of her reach by getting expelled.

Chemyst -> Anyway, wwtMask expressed a desire for just one piece of foreshadowing. IF JKR has planted any, one of the better bets is that the clue occurs when Pansy accused Hermione of making love potions. This shows that the thought has at least entered Pansy's head. Devious people often accuse others of doing the evil that they'd do themselves.

There also the one from PS :

‘Did you see the face of that great lump?’
The other Slytherin joined in.
‘Shut up, Malfoy,’ snapped Parvati Patil.
‘Ooh, sticking up for Longbottom?’ said Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced Slytherin girl. ‘Never thought you’d like fat little cry babies, Parvati.’ (PS p.110)

It does sounds in Pansy's 11 years old mind, stiking up for a boy means you love him. It could still be true and she does stick with Malfoy more than once, but never for Harry. Add the love potions in the mix, as it's the way she accused Hermione to use to get Krum, I'd say Draco may have been bewitched.

I think we had big clues about Scabbers and Mad-Eye Moody. Scabbers was way too old for a non-magical rat even the characters noticed there was a "bug". When Harry told Sirius Barty Crouch was in Snape office at night, Sirius said "that doesn't make sense at all", the characters once again noticed a "bug". The same goes for Ginny in CoS, Percy did notice she acted oddly. The same goes for Snape, Hagrid did tell HRH than Snape stealing the stone doesn't make sense.

For Harry and Cho's ship, we knew from PoA that Harry was interested and we learn in GoF that Cho was interested. The characters did notice.

No character have yet find anything fishy about Pansy and that's what make me believe she add not changed yet in OoP if she have to change at all.

Edit : I will be extra careful of characters finding stuff that doesn't make sense to them when I'll read HbP.

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Paulus Maximus - Nov 4, 2004 4:38 pm (#471 of 496)

Not only was Scabbers way too old, he was also missing a toe...

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 4:54 pm (#472 of 496)

Come on,assuming that Pansy is the one who gave the list and she is the one who first saw it. Can she hide the list when that was in full view to the others in the Inquistion Squad. The answer is no.

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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2004 6:22 pm (#473 of 496)

Back in business
Come on, assuming the others in the Inquisition Squad had nothing better to do than look what Pansy was doing. They were running after the escaping DA members, maybe a small squad of three to four at the very top was sent to search the in the room, but fact is the top priority was to catch the escaped criminals before they get away, unanimated object don't get away that fast, they can wait for a bit latter as long as no one have access to the room. They were suppose to thrust worthy students, no?

I wouldn't put the missing toe in the "bug" category but in the "hint" one. The bug was the rat was way to old, the hints were he missed a toe, the animagi were bring forth, the only a finger remain from Peter, the cat was chashing him and only him, Sirius when on with his "he's in Hogwarts" before he get away, The only Daily Prophet we saw was the one with the Weasley and scabbers on it, the sneak-o-scope were always buzzing around him, etc.

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 7:29 pm (#474 of 496)

Point taken but look at this way, assuming that they are not watching what Pansy was doing. It is bound that each of them will notice what the others is doing.

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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2004 7:56 pm (#475 of 496)

Back in business
Umbridge said : "Miss Edgecombe tipped me off and I proceeded at once to the seventh floor, accompanied by certain trustworthy students, so as to catch those in the meeting red-handed. It appears that they were forewarned of my arrival, however, because when we reached the seventh floor they were running in every direction. It does not matter, however. I have all the names here, Miss Parkinson ran into the Room of Requirement for me to see if they had left anything behind." (UK OoP ch.27 p.545)

It sounds like Miss Parkinson was either the only one sent there or the forewoman, and she was sent there because Umbridge had other pressing matter on hand. So had Pansy taken the piece of parchement and said "Rubbish, I pocket it so we won't stumble on it again", no one would have minded. It's all in the tone of voice.

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 8:18 pm (#476 of 496)

Edited by Denise P. Nov 5, 2004 6:40 am
But I still has argument for that. There are reasons why Pansy can't pocket it. Assuming that Zit Face Who is this? told Toadsley Again, who are you referring to? everything, it is obvious that Zit Face told Toadsley about the list. If the list was not found within the members. Toadsley in the fit of rage will attempt to Accio it. What will be the implication if the list was found coming from Pugsley's Is this a new character?pocket.

I would love to argue with you more but I am too weak to continue.

Edit Weak or not, if you are going to post a message, you need to be clear on who you are referring to. You may not like a character but please use the name of the character or a widely used abbreviation/nickname so we know who you are referring to. You have the option of deleting this post yourself or emailing me with your edit to clarify who exactly you are referring to. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Amilia Smith - Nov 4, 2004 8:40 pm (#477 of 496)

Just for the sake of argument, Marietta didn't tell Umbridge everything. As soon as her face broke out, she clammed up really quick.

Mills.

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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2004 9:21 pm (#478 of 496)

Back in business
I'll argue with myself then ^_~

Marianne -> So, what if Zip Face told Toadsley about the list as Total hatred said?

Tomoé -> Umbridge said : "Miss Edgecombe here came to my office shortly after dinner this evening and told me she had something she wanted to tell me. She said that if I proceeded to a secret room on the seventh floor, sometimes known as the Room of Requirement, I would find out something to my advantage. I questioned her a little further and she admitted that there was to be some kind of meeting there. Unfortunately, at that point this hex [...] came into operation and upon catching sight of her face in my mirror the girl became too distressed to tell me any more." (UK OoP ch.27 p.540)

It doesn't sound like Marietta had any occasion to talk of the list.

Marianne -> But Willy Widdershins was there when they sign the parchment, surely he told Umbridge about it.

Tomoé -> but Umbridge came very quickly from her Office to the RoR, she wanted to catch them red-handed, would she had the time to look back in her notes? And even so, would she have the time tell Pansy and maybe other students charged to search the room? And there was so very little time between when Harry slammed the door and when Umbridge look at Draco's prisoner, Pansy had to be very quick, like if she was very eager to find evidence for Umbridge.

Marianne -> Er ... I don't think we'll be able to get any further, we are in the middle of the speculation realms. Both situation are possible, but it does seem like Pansy was very quick to get the parchment to Umbridge. Did she even knew what she brought her? Maybe she didn't realise she was dooming the boy she loved.

Tomoé -> Only Jo knows.

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mike miller - Nov 5, 2004 5:54 am (#479 of 496)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Tomoe - I agree with you that Pansy probably had the opportunity to pocket the list. Only JKR knows for sure and why she let Pansy give the list to Umbridge. It's possible that this is Pansy's last act as her old self before the tranformation begins. The combination of Harry's interview in the Quibbler, Umbridge's actions and the news of Voldemort's return will be enough for Pansy to see the error of her ways.

Personally, I need just a little more evidence to buy the transformation of Pansy theory, especially as it relates to a 'ship with Harry. My money is on Theodore Nott as the first Slytherin to come over to Harry's side.

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Tomoé - Nov 5, 2004 11:02 am (#480 of 496)

Back in business
My money is on Blaise Zabini, Theodore is too much a loner to be the first one in my humble opinion. But that's for another thread.

Tomoé -> It does sounds in Pansy's 11 years old mind, stiking up for a boy means you love him. It could still be true and she does stick with Malfoy more than once, but never for Harry.

I forgot Pansy did stick to Harry in the first CoMC lesson, ok the large majority of her house did stick to Harry in the moment too, but she wasn't totally anti-Harry in that scene.

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Robert Dierken - Nov 12, 2004 9:06 am (#481 of 496)

A country dance was being held in a garden
I felt a bump and heard an "Oh, beg your pardon"
Suddenly I saw Polka Dots And Moonbeams
All around a pug-nosed dream.

The music started and was I the perplexed one,
I held my breath and said "May I have the next one?"
In my frightened arms Polka Dots And Moonbeams
Sparkled on a pug-nosed dream.

There were questions in the eyes of other dancers
As we floated over the floor.
There were questions but my heart knew all the answers,
And perhaps a few things more.

Now in a cottage built of lilacs and laughter.
I know the meaning of the words "ever after"
And I'll always see Polka Dots and Moonbeams
When I kiss the pug-nosed dream.



-- "Polka Dots and Moonbeams" -- words by Johnny Burke -- music by Jimmy Van Heusen.

I played this at my piano lesson two weeks ago, and couldn't get it out of my mind without posting it here!

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haymoni - Mar 20, 2006 11:37 am (#482 of 496)

How is it that we have ignored this thread since 2004????

While Pansy certainly fawns over Draco, I still haven't seen any evidence that she herself harbors the Pure-Blood mentality.

Even when Blaise insulted Ginny, I still didn't get the feeling that she agreed with his comment - she just seemed to be happy that he didn't like her.

It is possible that Pansy is a half-blood, but I really think Draco would only date a pure-blood girl.

We haven't heard ANYTHING about another Parkinson in the wizarding world. Is there anything in FB or QA about a "Parkinson"?

Was there a Parkinson on the Black Family Tree??? Maybe I missed that.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 20, 2006 12:26 pm (#483 of 496)

I have wondered whether what Pansy's motivations were in questioning Blaise Zabini about his attitudes and feelings about Ginny Weasley and her reaction to his response in HBP chapter seven?

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haymoni - Mar 20, 2006 12:39 pm (#484 of 496)

Pansy says something like "We know how hard you are to please" about Blaise and his taste in girls.

Maybe Blaise was Pansy's first choice, but he rebuffed her so she settled for Draco.

We don't really hear about the other Slytherin girls, so maybe Pansy likes being the Belle of the Ball, even if the ball only has Draco, Blaise, Crabbe, Goyle & Nott attending it.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 21, 2006 3:24 am (#485 of 496)

I got the impression that Pansy really wanted to ask Draco how he felt about Ginny but asked Blaise instead so she could watch Draco's reaction.

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Chemyst - Mar 21, 2006 4:59 am (#486 of 496)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Ooo, Weeny Owl, that is so conniving! That is exactly the way Draco deserves to be reacted to. **need sinister smilie**

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kingdolohov - Mar 22, 2006 12:27 pm (#487 of 496)

"We don't really hear about the other Slytherin girls, so maybe Pansy likes being the Belle of the Ball"

You can't forget the lovely Millicent Bulstrode. I'm actually surprised she didn't end up with Crabbe or Goyle at the Yule Ball.

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haymoni - Mar 22, 2006 2:42 pm (#488 of 496)

I wondered about that too - She probably had more sense than that.

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Soul Search - Aug 24, 2006 4:22 pm (#489 of 496)

A thought on Pansy Parkinson's role in Book Seven.

A discussion on the Theodore Nott thread was considering which of Nott, Zabini, or Parkinson might turn out to be the "good" Slytherin. Pansy was presented as more developed, and less nasty, than most.

I recall that Pansy was not involved in the scene in OotP where the Inquisitorial Squad has Harry etal in Umbridge's office. She was, however, involved in the raid on the DA meeting.

The Hogwart's Express scene in HBP did show her as worried about Draco's bragging hints about not coming back to Hogwarts and having better things to do.

Anyway, I am working up to the suggestion that Pansy could have a role in swaying Draco away from Voldemort.

Not sure Draco is going to be able to visit a girlfriend, everything considered, but JKR could find a way.

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haymoni - Aug 25, 2006 6:50 am (#490 of 496)

I just find it strange that in all her insults to Hermione, she never once mentions her being a Mudblood.

I can't imagine Draco associating with a girl who was not a pureblood, but James was a pureblood and his family did not follow that philosophy.

Pansy leads the group in singing "Weasley is our King", but never directly insults Ron or his family as Draco does.

There are no Parkinsons listed on the Black Family Tree. It's just strange.

Of course, she could be the direct descendent of the worst Death Eater that ever lived.

We just don't know.

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 1, 2006 9:00 am (#491 of 496)

As Prefect Marcus had noted last year, Pansy is the only other Slytherin other than Draco to speak. (This was written before book 6). Whether this is significant or not who is to say. Though it is unlikely that it will be the "ship" that will unite the houses, it may be Pansy is not at all a Voldemort supporter.

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 12, 2006 7:30 am (#492 of 496)

I'm also curious as to what role Pansy might play in book seven. Her link to the plot seems to have run off...Draco. I think Draco will be hiding out with Snape and Pansy will be the last thing on his mind, personally. That could mean one of several things. A few examples:

1. She drops out of the story somewhat, because she had no further purpose.

2. She has something to do with inter-house unity. Maybe what happened with Draco horrifies her to that point, although I think there are other characters who could do this as well or better. I favor Nott or Zabini over her, simply because they don't have as many fans who are set on their opinions of them yet. The transition MIGHT be smoother than trying to make Pansy more sympathetic.

3. She is bitter and a thorn in the side of the trio as they go about their horcrux hunting,, or to the characters who are left to hold down the fort, so to speak.

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 14, 2006 7:06 am (#493 of 496)

She is bitter and a thorn in the side of the trio as they go about their horcrux hunting,, or to the characters who are left to hold down the fort, so to speak. Die Zimtricke

this is generally true. But unlike Draco she doesn't seem to go out of her way to torment the trio. She would hate them because in her mind at the end of year 4 and 5 they were responsible for turning her friends into slugs. In book 6 she probably hates Harry because he actually did the sectumsempera curse and hurt Draco.

The only time I can think when she made a nasty remark was to Cho when Harry was walking with her to Hogsmeade on Valentine's day. Then again she might be jealous. and protesting too much.

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Miss Amanda - Sep 16, 2006 5:43 pm (#494 of 496)

Considering that Pansy is compared to Pink's song "Stupid Girls" by JKR on her website, I don't think that Pansy is going to be a source of unifying power.

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haymoni - Sep 16, 2006 5:54 pm (#495 of 496)

Pansy could be just that - mean.

I am still mystified as to why we never hear her utter a word about Muggle-borns.

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frogface - Feb 9, 2007 7:13 am (#496 of 496)

I think if Pansy were going to play any significant role in DH, her character would have been more delveloped in the books by now. But thats just my two knuts on the subject.

rambkowalczyk - I thought Marcus Flint had spoken at least once? (pre HBP) I could very well be wrong, its been a while since I've read any of the books - I'm saving myself up so that I can have read all six just before DH comes out

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