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Neville Longbottom

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:47 am

Neville Longbottom

This topic serves as an archives of two threads from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. The first Neville Longbottom thread was started on January 8, 2003, its last post is dated June 5, 2003. The second Neville Longbottom thread was started on August 29, 2003. Elanor

Header of the first Neville Longbottom thread:

Brave ol' Neville - Jan 8, 2003 9:08 pm
Edited by Kip Carter May 2, 2006 7:49 am
In the charoom we got into some disccusions on Harry Potter (for once) and Neville came up. We came up with three major questions

Is Trever the Toad going to be important later on in the books?

Lupin new a lot about Nevilles parents. Were they and Lupin in the inner circle or what?

Does Nevilles Grandmothers hand bag have any magical properties?

P.S. Amything else on Neville is welcome.



Header of the second Neville Longbottom thread:

wormsé - Aug 29, 2003 2:49 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 25, 2007 9:50 pm
Neville is definitly going to become an important character. He needs a thread devoted to him, so discuss away!



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Last edited by Elanor on Sat May 07, 2011 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor
Elanor
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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom I (Post 1 to 47)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 9:52 am

W J - Jan 8, 2003 9:32 pm (#1 of 47)
Edited by Jan 8, 2003 8:34 pm
I think most adults know about Neville's parents even if they were not personal friends with them. Dumbledore told Harry that the Longbottoms were well known and liked. What happened to them occurred a while after Voldemort had disappeared and it was BIG news. Dumbledore said people were outraged or something because things had been calm for quite a while before the attack on the Longbottoms. It was a well known incident. Lupin may have no connection to them at all. There is nothing to suggest it in the books so far.

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Drusilla Malfoy - Jan 9, 2003 5:15 am (#2 of 47)

First of all I want to say there is a thread about Neville, because he is one of my favourite characters in the book.

To answer Seek's questions: No, I don't think Trevor will become especially important. There is so much talk about all the student's pets being animagi suddenly or special or able to perform magic and miracles. I don't believe any of it. Lupin might well have known Neville's parents. I think they really were very important on the good side, or else the Lestranges (the people who tortured them) wouldn't have taken so much efford with the Longbottoms. They would have just killed them but not tortured then so long that they went insane. That's just too much efford, when you are trying to just get rid of your enemies. They must have known something very important or been able to do something very special. The granny's handbag? Maybe yes, but I don't think this has anything to do with the story. I may be wrong, of course.
.....
Other thoughts about Neville:

First of all I think Neville's family is not very nice. The oncle (or grand-uncle or whatever he is) who let him fall out of the window. I mean, they were all rather mean to him before they realized he WAS a wizard after all. In my opinion such behaviour is not much better as that of the Malfoys who hate Muggles as well. The Longbottom family would not have minded the death of Neville, when they thought he was not magic at all.

Then, I have thought a lot about the houses and the sorting has never been really clear to me (except in some cases). Especially the Gryffindors... Neville is the only one whose most outstanding characteristic is that he is brave (besides being quite clumsy - but for that he would not have been sorted).

I think it is very unfair how the students are treated. Harry is always the one who is forgiven everything. Why? Just because he has that scar? Or because he is an orphan? Neville is an orphan too, but no one seems to care. The only one nice to Neville was Dumbledore when he revarded him with those 10 extra points at the end of book 1.

I hope that we will learn a lot more about Neville in the books that are yet to come and that Harry will really be a lot nicer and become good friends with Neville, as he intended to do at the end of book 4.

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Lenka - Jan 9, 2003 5:48 am (#3 of 47)

ahhhh essays
I agree. I guess the two at-the-moment-less-that-likable-character defenders had just met. Yeah, Neville's not exactly... perfect, but let's face it - who is?

Keep it up, Drusilla. Stick up for Neville. He IS brave.

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Drusilla Malfoy - Jan 9, 2003 7:14 am (#4 of 47)

I will, Ellen, I will.

Neville is afraid always. But he faces danger even so. I think that makes him even more brave than somebody who is not afraid in the first place.

If there are two people: one is afraid of water and the other one is a top swimmer. Both jump in a lake to safe a friend. Who would you say was braver? I'd say the one with the fear of water.

The same goes for Neville. He's afraid of doing something wrong all the time but he doesn't stay quiet and hide and try not to get noticed as he could do but he steps out and stands up for what he thinks is right. I think that's a very brave thing to do!
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Istari Jones - Jan 9, 2003 9:14 am (#5 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Hi Drusilla, Welcome aboard. Did you check out the other threads about Neville? You'll be pleasantly surprised...there are some really good thoughts there. Neville really isn't an orphan though. His parents are at St. Mungo's because they are insane from torture by Voldemort's followers. Neville goes to see them every weekend with his gran. I really doubt Neville will turn to the Dark Side. His Gran is a very strong woman and has chastised Neville for bringing shame on their family when he lost the list of passwords in POA. I imagine the weekly visits are strongly reinforced by Gran to demonstrate to Neville he must be brave, strong and develop a mission to fight the dark side. His father, Frank, was an Auror, afterall. Neville is probably expected to follow in his father's footsteps. I think we are going to see great things from Neville in the future.

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Lenka - Jan 9, 2003 11:02 am (#6 of 47)

ahhhh essays
um... just a tiny mistake : he doesn't go to see them every weekend, he's a Hogwarts,remember?

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Hamuera - Jan 9, 2003 1:15 pm (#7 of 47)

yeah, Dumbledore said he visits them during the holidays ^_^

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Kathy Lynch - Jan 9, 2003 1:18 pm (#8 of 47)

Unapologetic Harry Potter Nerd.
Hamuera, who are those people in your picture?

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Hamuera - Jan 9, 2003 1:24 pm (#9 of 47)

Me, David, Feleti

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Istari Jones - Jan 9, 2003 1:49 pm (#10 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Oops! Sorry! I try to be accurate, but, well, if you're going to screw up, do it big and be real obvious, I guess!

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Ravenclaw Chaser - Jan 9, 2003 2:03 pm (#11 of 47)

~Potterholic And Proud!~
Edited by Jan 9, 2003 1:03 pm
One of my favorite parts from GoF is right after Harry finds out about Neville's parents and he is thinking that Neville deserves people's sympathy more than Harry does.

Ellen, you are so right: Neville is brave. He was chosen for Gryffindor, even though at first look, most would write him off as a pathetic wuss (sorry for my less-than-conventional choice of words). He got up in the middle of the night to warn Harry and Hermione that Malfoy was going to catch them. He stood up to Harry, Ron and Hermione when they were trying to go after the Sorcerer's Stone because he didn't want them to get in trouble again.

One thing I think sometimes gets overlooked, though: Neville is smart too. Just because he's not good at most subjects doesn't mean a thing. He's good at Herbology, and that's good enough. Shoot, I stink at math and science, but I'm good at English and literature and most people consider me a genius (I'm not trying to brag; I said I stink at math and science, remember?) Maybe the way some teachers talk to him could be the reason he doesn't do well in some classes. I did have one teacher that told me I was not a straight A student and I never got any higher than a B in her class. What I'm getting at is, Neville is a good student and that's that.

Drusilla, welcome to the Forum!

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Istari Jones - Jan 9, 2003 6:01 pm (#12 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Really well put, Ravenclaw Chaser. Looking back in school I think there were (and are) a lot of people like Neville. I hope Neville plays a real heroic role in the up coming books. He deserves to get some good credit.

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Makgraf - Jan 8, 2003 11:39 am (#13 of 47)

The reason that Harry Potter is forgiven for everything is that he's The Boy Who Lived. Once Neville gets rid of the dark lord, then he can get away with stuff too Razz.

In all seriousness, I think it's disgraceful how Snape treats Neville. Snape puts Neville through constant badgering, degrades him, insults him when he makes a mistake or when he gets something right. Aren't there any trigger happy Aurors who would explain to Snape that they expect the Longbottom's child should get slightly better treatment, espically from an ex-Death Eater. It's like the side of light lost the war, the way that people allowed to flaunt the dark arts. Personally I think that the Aurors have to crack down HARD against the forces of evil, and if that means throwing lots of Slytherians in Azkaban so be it, including Snape. (I don't buy this repentence thing, Snape's evil to the core and only switched sides to save his skin. If he hates evil so much he wouldn't be brownnoising the Malfoys as he does).

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Alianora - Jan 9, 2003 7:15 pm (#14 of 47)

Yeah, I dont buy this "good side" Snape. I think that he's a nasty guy, whatever side he's on. He's a really mean person, whether or not he's evil.

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Brave ol' Neville - Jan 9, 2003 7:20 pm (#15 of 47)

Used to be Seek W.
That's not true. Dumblledore wouldn't tell Harry why he let Snape back on the good side. Maybe Snape did something really good. I do know that Snape may seem bad and I don't love him. But I do have to agree with the saying never judge a guy who went from the darkside to the goodside by his cover.

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Alianora - Jan 9, 2003 7:44 pm (#16 of 47)

I don't think he's evil, just verrrrry mean.

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rettoP yrraH - Jan 9, 2003 8:09 pm (#17 of 47)

Half of what I say is meaningless
Well his cover i'snt so good is it?

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W J - Jan 9, 2003 8:44 pm (#18 of 47)

Drusilla Malfoy said "The Longbottom family would not have minded the death of Neville, when they thought he was not magic at all."

Neville's family is very proud, strict, and proper, but I have seen no evidence that they would rather Neville be dead than a squib.

Neville's grandmother lost her son and daughter-in-law when they were tortured beyond endurance. They are not dead so there is no closure on the emotional toll this situation takes from the Longbottom family. Instead, older Mrs. Longbottom must suffer grief and pain all the time at the thought of her child in that condition. She raises Neville in place of her own son and I think she is strict on Neville because she is afraid of losing him too perhaps. I don't think she or Neville's uncles would have rather Neville be dead than a squib. They are a proud family but I do not think they are as callous as that.

Please tell where there is evidence for it in the books that Neville's grandmother would feel that way.

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Drusilla Malfoy - Jan 10, 2003 12:37 am (#19 of 47)

Edited by Jan 9, 2003 11:39 pm
Thanks for the welcome, Istari and Ravenclaw Chaser. No, sorry, I did not read all the threads yet. Gosh, there is so much interesting stuff - you've just got to start somewhere...

@W J Ok, maybe my formulation was a bit too strong. I admit, I used it to provoke responses.

I just think, that if my uncle would hold me by the foot out of the window (that's a scene, Neville tells the others in "The Philosopher's Stone, which I'm sorry, I can't quote here, as I don't own the books in English yet) and - if only in a joke - threatened to drop me down a few floors, my parents and also my grandparents would have jumped and safed me, and probably not have invited that uncle any more to our house, instead of offering the guy a piece of cake.

I think they are quite careless about Neville, until they find out that he really is not a squib.

After that incident they are much nicer to Neville and when his Hogwarts letter arrives they are all very happy. And that same uncle that almost killed him gave him his toad. However, we also learn that toads are really "out" and other student laugh at somebody who's got a toad. Even Ron, who really can not be very choosy about anything, remarks to Harry in the train, if he had a toad he would try to get rid of it at once and not look for it.

So, Neville's family are really a bit strange, aren't they?

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Lenka - Jan 10, 2003 5:26 am (#20 of 47)

ahhhh essays
Well, i think his uncle didn't know that if you drop a squib or muggle out of the window they will die. the Longbottoms are an old wizarding familly, and therefore they probably don't know much about muggles.

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Ravenclaw Chaser - Jan 10, 2003 9:41 am (#21 of 47)

~Potterholic And Proud!~
I think WJ has a point. Maybe Neville's grandmother sees Neville as a replacement for his parents (Is she his grandmother on his father's or his mother's side? I've never seen a reference to that in the books). Maybe she does expect Neville to be this great hero or something because his parents were popular, but I think he's fulfilling her expectations in smaller ways.

About toads being "out", maybe Neville's great uncle grew up when toads were the cool thing and hasn't come up to speed with what wizard kids these days really want.

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Kevin YouBustSlug - Jan 10, 2003 11:20 am (#22 of 47)

I was part of that forum discussion on Neville and the toad. I was in fact, the one who brought it up. My point about Trevor having magical powers was not that he may have been an animagus, but that I had just been rereading PoA, and got to the part where Ron takes Scabbers, who has been looking a little puny, to the Magical Menagerie to have him checked out. The witch at the store, referring to Scabbers, asks Ron the question: "What powers does he have?" (PoA page 59). She does not ask: "Does he have any powers?", rather "What powers does he have?" The implication is that any pet of a student must have some sort of powers. That got me thinking about Trevor. We know that post owls such as Hedwig, Errol and Pigwidgeon have powers to find the recipients of the mail being delivered, and to anticipate the birthday gifts of their owners etc.. We know, or at least suspect, that Crookshanks is fully or part Kneazle and has more powers than the average cat, but Trevor has done nothing other than get lost frequently. He was turned back into a tadpole, but not of his own doing. Toads are on the list of approved pets for the school, so I just think that there must be some latent incipient powers in him which we have not yet learned about. Why would the list of approved pets for the school be limited to toads, cats and owls unless they posessed some powers beneficial to their owners If toads, cats and owls are simply pets, then why not frogs, dogs, parakeets and hogs?

Also, to Istari Jones...Ravenclaw Chaser is correct. We do not know that Neville's grandmother is a Longbottom. She could well be Neville's maternal grandmother.

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Istari Jones - Jan 10, 2003 10:42 pm (#23 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Edited by Jan 10, 2003 9:43 pm
Hey KevinYouBustSlug...I had not mentioned Neville's gran was a Longbottom. She could still want Neville to be like Frank, even if she was his mother-in-law. It just seems like Neville's Gran is a strong woman, and Neville's Dad had to be an especially strong or powerful or capable auror. I think Gran wants Neville to have many of the same strong qualities, also. And I think he will. We're all going to be pleasantly surprised by Gryffindor Neville.

Also KYBS, (really big sigh here) Every time I think I've climbed off the HP wagon someone tosses out another theory that twirls around my head for days. You made some good points about Trevor AND of the pets and their magical powers statement. My head will be thinking about this theory for days now! ^_^

Also, I know I've said this a couple times, but it seems to fit OK with this thread. Someone (Carina? Nine? Slytherin Girl?) thought with Trevor constantly coming up missing, Neville might be looking for him and find something he shouldn't, then gets himself into a bit of hot water. Comments on this?

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W J - Jan 11, 2003 2:26 am (#24 of 47)

Drusilla, In the English version of the books, Neville is dropped by his uncle by accident because his uncle was distracted when a piece of cake was offered to him. Neville also seemed proud that he bounced. I see no evidence in the books that his family was deliberately trying to harm him. They wanted him to succeed but they certainly did not want him dead.

And all the families are strange. Wink

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Drusilla Malfoy - Jan 11, 2003 10:19 am (#25 of 47)

W J: Sorry, you still didn't get my point. I never meant that they WANTED to harm him, but that they were rather CARELESS about him, i.e. they didn't really mind him having an accident. It was just lucky he bounced and nothing bad happened to Neville. And I think it is something if a child falls out of a window by ACCIDENT as opposed to a child being hung out of a window as a joke by his uncle: you always have to be aware that anything that might suddenly distract the uncle (as happened with the cake) might make him drop the child. I find this rather irresponsible.

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Alianora - Jan 11, 2003 2:29 pm (#26 of 47)

yes, they are, but they are also a wizarding family, and Neville is a pure blood. They might not know what could happen to him, and also, if you get hurt in the wizarding world, its easier to fix. I think Neville's grandmother is on his father's side of the family, because I'm pretty sure that her last name is Longbottom, and she would have had to marry his grandfather to have that name, on his father's side. I might be wrong about that, but I don't see how it effects the books, either way.

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Dr Filibuster - Jan 19, 2003 4:28 am (#27 of 47)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Edited by Jan 19, 2003 3:29 am
"Neville listened jealously to the others' conversation as they relived the (world)Cup match

"Gran didn't want me to go",he said miserably. Wouldn't buy tickets."

Just a strict old lady who isn't into sport (or the cost/hassle of going?)

Or, with our benefit of hindsight, somethng more?

Rumblings of Deatheater action? Danger in crowds? would people upset Nev because they know about his parents?

I am not suggesting that Neville's gran is a deatheater but I wouldd love to know more about her. If she's not part of the old crowd could she be connected to it somehow?

Your thoughts and suggestions if you please.

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azi - Jan 19, 2003 5:21 am (#28 of 47)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I always thought that Nevile's mum was a muggle because Dumbledore refers to her a Frank Longbottoms wife and never said her christian name or anything. He mentions Frank was an auror but not want Nevile's mother was. It would explain why the family thought Nevile was a squib for ages - because his mother wasn't magical. If Nevile's mum fought against Voldie then surely Dumbledore would mention her name and know her.

This would also mean that Nevile's gran was Franks mum because she is so obviously a witch. It would also explain the family honour thing - she does want Nevile to be like his father.

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Alianora - Jan 19, 2003 8:05 am (#29 of 47)

I thought that the book said that Neville was a pure-blood. I don't see what not mentioning his mother's name has to do with her being a muggle.

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Sly Girl - Jan 19, 2003 10:12 am (#30 of 47)

I'm with Alianora on this one- I think they do say Neville is a pure blood. I think it's in CoS when they're talking about mudbloods vs pure bloods and they use Neville as an example of pureblood not equalling talent or some such thing. wish I had my book with me to check..... dang that mother of mine, she had to go steal it to read it!

Neville's parents are both in the aslyum right? Why would his mother have been subjected to the charm that made them lose their minds, if she didn't know something about it? Other than for sport, I mean.

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Nine - Jan 19, 2003 2:41 pm (#31 of 47)

Edited by Jan 19, 2003 1:42 pm
Yes, they do mention that Neville is a pureblood in CoS, when people start trading "good-luck charms" and he gets a newt's tail, among other things. And they were probably trying to make Frank Longbottom talk, SG, when they tortured his wife.

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Sly Girl - Jan 19, 2003 7:21 pm (#32 of 47)

yeah, *sheepish grin* you're right. I was re-reading that part in GoF and realized that's why they did the curse to her, because Frank wasn't talking. Man, those deatheaters are evil.

states the obvious and walks off..*

comes back*

oh yeah! almost forgot- in SS Neville says his family thought he was completely Muggle- now why would he say that if he was pure blood? Is there a way for a pureblood to not have magic blood and therefore *be* a muggle? Is there a mistake that JK later cleared up in CoS or did she change her mind about Neville between the first and two books?

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dudley - Jan 19, 2003 7:31 pm (#33 of 47)

previously known as dudley
They are called "squibs" and are pure blood wizards without any magic power, like Filtch (see PoA)

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Sly Girl - Jan 19, 2003 7:35 pm (#34 of 47)

no, I know they're squibs, dudley. But Neville clearly says they thought I was ALL muggle, not that I was ALL squib. I still think there's something off there. Calling yourself a squib is one thing- but to call yourself a muggle, I think that falls under something different.

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dudley - Jan 19, 2003 7:37 pm (#35 of 47)

previously known as dudley
He said he was "practically a muggle" which points him to being a squib rather than a muggle.

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Sly Girl - Jan 19, 2003 7:46 pm (#36 of 47)

no, that's not the part I mean. here...in the PS/SS in the "The Sorting Hat" Chapter after the kids get done asking Nearly Headless Nick about the Bloody Baron they start talking about their families and Neville says.."Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch. But the family thought I was all-muggle for ages."

So.. is this just an error because she hadn't introduced the concept of "squib" yet (in Cos) or is it something else?

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dudley - Jan 19, 2003 7:59 pm (#37 of 47)

previously known as dudley
Quite probably.

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Alianora - Jan 19, 2003 8:06 pm (#38 of 47)

I think that squib means all-muggle, entirly unable to preform any magic. Saying someone is all-squib would be like saying all- all unable to preform magic.

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Denise P. - Jan 20, 2003 7:35 am (#39 of 47)

Ravenclaw Pony
There seems to be levels of squib-ness. It can range from a total null...no hint of magic at all to being able to do a bit of magic but not well. I would think to use the Kwik Spell course, you would have to have SOME innate ability. In one of the books, it is mentioned about having enough magic to get into Hogwarts...this seems to support the idea of levels of squib-ness.

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Sly Girl - Jan 20, 2003 9:46 am (#40 of 47)

heh. levels of squib-ness. that just sounds funny. Smile

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Nine - Jan 20, 2003 10:50 am (#41 of 47)

Neville also mentions that part, Denise, about having enough magic to get into Hogwarts. So I have to agree: there are people with some magic but nowhere near average levels, and they're lumped in with magicless wizard-borns and called squibs.

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Cat on a Wall - Jan 23, 2003 2:10 am (#42 of 47)

Um hi I haven't joined this site yet but may I offer my humble theory on Neville's surname. I just started re-reading LOTR and was reading the prologue 'Concerning Hobbits'. Well it turns out that Longbottom is the village where pipeweed first grew in the Shire. And Neville's favourite/best subject is Herbology so maybe it's not just a coincidence Smile Also when J.K Rowling writes about Neville being by his Great uncle I think it was just meant to be something a bit lighthearted, not that Neville is being mistreated by his family. Besides his Great Uncle must be old, it's possible that he just forgot right? :sheepish grin:

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Istari Jones - Jan 23, 2003 12:40 pm (#43 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Neville, a Hobbit? Let's check his feet! Hmmmm, a Hobbit destroys the Dark Lord Sauron.....Neville destroys the Dark Lord Voldemort! I like it!!

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Denise S. - Jan 23, 2003 1:43 pm (#44 of 47)

We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Jan 23, 2003 12:45 pm
Hee hee! Can't resist:

"You can't have the ring," said Neville, "you'll try to take over Middle Earth again. The Shire will be in even more trouble."

"You don't understand," said Sauron, "this is important."

But Neville was clearly steeling himself to do something desperate.

"I won't let you do it," he said, hurrying to stand in front of the fires of Mt. Doom. "I'll--I'll fight you!"

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Istari Jones - Jan 23, 2003 8:31 pm (#45 of 47)

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.......
Hurray for Neville!!! Who would be the "Gollum" to go over the edge with the ring? Trevor, the toad? LOL ^_^

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Sirius Slytherin - Jan 23, 2003 10:05 pm (#46 of 47)

Don't forget that Bilbo is Frodo's "great uncle". Razz It's very likely JKR was inspired by LotR to base some of a character's background around some of it. It's interesting once one thinks about it. Or this could just be making mountains out of antpiles.
Either way, I think Neville will play an important role in later books. He doesn't seem like an idiot, just a bit of a clutz, and as many here have theorized it may be due to a spell/curse. After that, who knows what can happen, Neville the Auror? o_O

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Kyle - Jun 5, 2003 4:07 pm (#47 of 47)

Cat, wow thats a pretty good theory, but its doutfull Neville is a hobbit. An interview with JKR talks about Tolkien and I believe it talks about this, you should check it out

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:05 am

A-is-for-Amy - Aug 29, 2003 3:38 pm (#1 of 1448)
Mom of 2 boys
I really like what JKR is doing with Neville's character. She took him from being "practically a squib" to what is turning out to be a formidable wizard. He may never have the talent of Hermione or Harry, but I think he will still have all the power he needs when he is ready for it.

Actually, I don't think that Neville was ever "practically a squib" so much as he was afraid of his potential power. He was brought up by a grandmother who is described as "formidable" and "strict" who forced him to visit parents in what must have been a terrifying environment to a small boy. What kind of messed up situation is that? What does that do to a kid to know that at every holiday you are going to have go and sit in a hospital with people you used to know and love who don't know you? If I knew that magic made all that happen, I'd try my hardest not to show a propensity for it.

Now that Neville realises that he has magic in him, and he can use it to his advantage and be *Good* at it, I think that he is going to grow by leaps and bounds. I also think that his getting a new wand will work wonders for him.

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fidelio - Aug 29, 2003 3:44 pm (#2 of 1448)

Amy, I have to say you may be right about why Neville was so dismal at magic at the start of the books. He still wasn't too steady at the start of OotP, but once he'd heard that the DE's were out of Azkaban and on the loose, he seemed to find some inner strength and his skills grew by leaps and bounds. I don't know if it was fear for himself, or fear for those around him, but something made him dig in and learn, going far past his own concept of what he could do. Maybe it was no longer a choice between Magic + Danger, but a matter of Magic = Some Danger, No Magic = Incredible Danger.

And did he show uncommon nerve in the MoM fight, or what?

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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 4:50 pm (#3 of 1448)

In part I agree it has something to do with Neville's environment, but there could have been something that 'set' Neville loose, so to speak- something that made him more confident. I still keep turning to that Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant- Pinky had come up with the idea that that plant was helping Neville somehow and she researched it and found a correalating plant in the real world, with a similar name, that is supposed to help those that are shy become more confident and sure of themselves. That is definitely happening to Neville.

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Pinky - Aug 29, 2003 6:50 pm (#4 of 1448)

La la narf!
Yes, I was just going to post that, but I see Sly has introduced it already for me. JKR introduced the plant rather spectacularly with the stinksap episode. She kept it in our minds by using "Mimbulus Mimbletonia" as the password for Gryffindor tower. But nothing ever came of it. That looks suspiciously like her habit of planting clues for something that comes up later. I may be completely wrong, but I think the plant is at least nudging Neville in the right direction.

In the real world, there is a plant by the name of "Mimulus." I got some of my information from this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Basically, the mimulus plant's claim to fame is that of remedying one's fears. I highly encourage you to visit the above site. The whole page sounds exactly like Neville.

I assume the plant can have magical properties like this based on the fact that there are other items in the magical world that can have an effect without being an actual spell or potion. The augery and the fwooper both cause psychological changes in those that hear them. Surely there are magical plants that can have a similar effect on those that are near them.

Basically, I propose that due to Neville's exposure to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant, he was aided in overcoming his fears, shyness, and nervousness with magic. I'm sure there were other factors as well, such as the DA, the escape of the DE's, etc, but I believe the MimMim plant also had a hand in turning Neville loose.

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Slytherin Prefect - Aug 29, 2003 11:09 pm (#5 of 1448)

Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
Neville has always had courage within him. As I've said many times of my favorite character, there's no one in the books who deserves to be in Gryffindor as much as he does.

He was the only one with the sense to try to stop Harry, Hermoine, and Ron when they went out on their fool mission to protect the sorcerer's stone where apparently the most powerful wizard in the world could not.

When Draco finally insults Ron's family for Ron's last straw during a Quidditch game, and Ron starts fighting Malfoy, Neville actually considers it for a moment, and knowing he's just going to get his butt kicked, takes on Crabbe and Goyle by himself. That's guts.

As for his wizarding abilities, they are at the moment average at best. Which, considering his origins (how his relatives ran all sorts of tests on him as an infant to see if he had any magical powers at all) is still pretty amazing, but I don't see Neville become the kind of spellcaster that Hermoine is.

I do, however, see him picking up a broom for Quidditch in book 6. ^_^

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fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 5:30 am (#6 of 1448)

Pinky, that is just way too neat! I wondered if it meant anything in particular when JKR noted, during the trip to London at the end of the year, when she wrote the Mimbulus crooned when it was stroked--have Neville and the plant bonded? Will he have a plant for a familiar?

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Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 7:45 am (#7 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I think we are in for quite a change in Neville Longbottom in Book 6. He's improved magically, and now had to face the Deatheaters themselves! The fact that he survived and even aquitted himself fairly well means that the confidence problem (almost wholely the fault of his grandmother) may well be gone. I see him stepping up to the fore in the resistance, no longer mearly comic relief. Considering he was a potential prophecy-fulfiller with Harry (from OoP), I think it likely that he will no longer be inconsequential to the future events.

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David Olson - Aug 30, 2003 9:30 am (#8 of 1448)

One minor item on Neville: apparently he's been using his dad's wand since the beginning of the series. But in the battle at the end of OOTP (p.794), he breaks it. I wonder how good he will be when he finally gets his own wand.

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Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 1:10 pm (#9 of 1448)

I don't think we were saying that Neville didn't have bravery in him, SP.. just that the plant helped him bring it out more. A little push, if you will.

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Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 30, 2003 1:41 pm (#10 of 1448)

The MimMin plant we saw in the begining was small and defensive (spraying stinksap everywhere) is different to the one at the end of the book. At the end it has grown lots and made happy crooning noises when neville touched it. I wonder what the effect of the Crooning has on Neville? Neville has undergone a similar but different form of growth.

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Pinky - Aug 30, 2003 2:58 pm (#11 of 1448)

La la narf!
Neville has always had strong character. That was pointed out very well by SP. The major change I see in him is his magical ability. Neville has always been very nervous around magic which enhances his ineptitude. This may be what the MimMim plant has helped with.

Neville is an interesting character. He isn't one of the main 3 (HRH), but he also can't be relegated to supporting cast either. Consider the first book, where by all rights it should have been Harry who contributed the winning points for the Gryffindors to win the House Cup. Instead, that honor goes to Neville. Neville was a candidate to be the subject of the prophecy and may yet play a role in it. He also was the only one of the DA that managed to stick with Harry through most of the fight at the MoM. I am really curious to find out what Neville's role will be in the next 2 books.

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Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:07 pm (#12 of 1448)

Me too.. The inclusion of 'it could of been Neville' in the prophecy was very exciting to me.

By the way, you guys are making me want to change my name to 'MimMim'.


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OkieAngel - Aug 30, 2003 10:01 pm (#13 of 1448)

I posted over on EZ that I believe Neville has became an integral character, and will be even more so once we find out how deep the history goes between the Longbotomm's and the Potter's.

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megfox - Sep 1, 2003 6:32 am (#14 of 1448)

My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Yeah, I think that the LB's and the Potter's were probably good friends, especially since they were both in the fight against Voldemort the first time. When I was reading a post about Lily and why don't we know any of her friends, I was thinking, "I betcha anything one of her really good friends was Alice Longbottom." Now that we know that Neville is really important to the story (if Voldemort had picked him, the books would have been "Neville Longbottom and the Order of the Phoenix")I think that we will see a change come over Neville. There are many things that Harry knows about Neville that Neville doesn't know about - for example, he keep the wrapper that his mother gave him, and that he is part of the Prophecy - I wonder if this will cause a change in the relationship between NEville and Harry. Also, does Neville know it could have been him? I wonder if Dumbledore ever made this known to the LOngbottoms and the Potters?

I know this post is rambly, and I apologize for that...I just can't get my thoughts to be organized today!

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Hem Hem - Sep 1, 2003 9:42 am (#15 of 1448)

Neville probably doesn't know about the prophecy as of yet, because if it was such a struggle for Dumbledore to tell Harry (the person who he believes the prophecy was destined for), then he would all the more so have trouble telling Neville.

When Harry learned about the prophecy, it caused a huge change in his outlook of his world. I wonder how such knowledge would change Neville?

Hehe. He'd probably just become more determined to improve magically.

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almightykneazle33 - Sep 1, 2003 10:04 am (#16 of 1448)

First off, hi all! Its my first post on WX's though I've been with you since the EZboards move! Anyway...

Neville's always been an important character, hidden away from the story. Not quite a supporting character, yet not quite a main character either. I'll be interested to see how he grows up a bit, like he did a lot during OotP. He shot right up there.

Anyway, I just thought of something and looked it up.. Neville's great-uncle Algie (wasn't he the one that dangled him out the window?) bought him the MimMim. (Oh ya Sly, you should change it to Mim Mim... :-D ) I wonder if he knew the side-effects, if there are any, when he sent it to Neville for his birthday. That might be a interesting side-bit that the one who didn't believe he had magic bought Neville this plant that helps him to IMPROVE magic.. Hmmm.. Just a thought.

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Sly Girl - Sep 1, 2003 12:05 pm (#17 of 1448)

Yeah, I think there is more to great ol'uncle Algie than we've been told. I mean, his name, for one thing- Algie? Isn't that suspciously close to algae? And Neville's best subject (up until now) is Herbology? Hmm.. a bit suspect. I wonder how close Neville is to his uncle?

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night41 - Sep 1, 2003 1:13 pm (#18 of 1448)

I wonder what the core of his new wand is going to be?

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timrew - Sep 1, 2003 1:15 pm (#19 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't suppose it'll be Mimbulus Mimbletonia root?

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Hem Hem - Sep 1, 2003 2:57 pm (#20 of 1448)

Phoenix tail feather, anyone? Fawkes had only given two feathers as of 1995...he could give another now.

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timrew - Sep 1, 2003 3:05 pm (#21 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Then if Neville ever comes to the rescue of Harry in the final battle with Voldemort, it could result in a three-way Priori Incantatem Spell.

Or perhaps two phoenix feathers are better than one; and the combination of Harry and Neville's wands will be enough to scorch Voldie's tail feather!

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Sly Girl - Sep 1, 2003 4:24 pm (#22 of 1448)

I love that idea, Tim.. a three way Priori. I don't think she'll do that again though, do you? Hmm. I can't wait to see what Neville's new wand is either. I hope she tells us.

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Madame Librarian - Sep 1, 2003 6:10 pm (#23 of 1448)

I just posted a few thoughts on the Longbottom thread I started the other day, but I got on to a few about Neville which really belong here, so I'll recap them here:

I read the scene where DD explains the Prophecy to Harry, and tells him he's sure the "chosen one" is Harry because Harry is marked (scar) by V. DD is so sure here, that I got nervous. Whenever a character is absolutely sure of something critical to the outcome, they end up being wrong! So, I can imagine a mark on Neville that is not visible like a scar or some early-onset magical powers. Maybe he's marked in a much more subtle way. I can't quite put my finger on it, something do to with his overall personality, his memory, his evolving skill in magic. It's all connected with why his parents are still alive (being kept alive?), why his mother is trying to tell him something through the gumwrappers. I just think something is fishy with the whole Neville think. What does everyone else think? Ciao. Barb

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OkieAngel - Sep 1, 2003 11:04 pm (#24 of 1448)

Yes, I have always thought there is so much more to the Longbottom's as whole than meets the eye, and Nevill's reaction in Imposter Moody's class proved it for me. I think he was present for his parents torture and somehow links that to Snape (why he fears him=the bogart). The question for me is...Was Snape the one who stopped the torture just short of killing Neville's parents? I dunno...it makes my mind go in circles...

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Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 2, 2003 2:25 am (#25 of 1448)

I really doubt that Snape was involved with the torture of the Longbottoms. About the time that Alice and Frank were being Crucio'd, Snape was just beginning his teaching career at Hogwarts. As liberal as DD is I just don't see him hiring the person who was (just then) responsible for destroying two very important and popular members of the same "resistance" group that DD is such a huge part of.

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fidelio - Sep 2, 2003 4:21 am (#26 of 1448)

Maybe Snape tried to warn the Longbottoms--he was still connected to the DEs, as far as we know. Or maybe he heard that Bella and the boys had in mind, and showed up--too late to keep it from happening.

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Pinky - Sep 2, 2003 5:52 am (#27 of 1448)

La la narf!
Mimbulus Mimbletonia is a rare plant, so I'm sure that Uncle Algie knew what he was doing when he sent it to Neville. I'd love for JKR to come out with a "Fantastic Plants and Where to Find Them" book. Maybe Uncle Algie realized he was the one who had made Neville so nervous about magical things and he's trying to atone for it.

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Lenka - Sep 2, 2003 6:06 am (#28 of 1448)

ahhhh essays
I just want to point out that no matter if Neville is braver or more powerfull than Harry or whether the prophecy is about him or not, he's shown far more brains and courage that Harry in one of the final scenes in the Ministry. Remember when Belatrix (I think it was her) pointed a wand at him, and he turned to Harry and said:

"Whadever habbens, don't gib it to theb." (yet again, I don't have the book with me, but you get the idea)

(Translation: whatever happens, don't give it (the prophecy) to them."

Well, good thinking there. Didn't Harry realize if he gives them the prophecy, he'll risk that Voldemort will take over the world? And if he didn't, maybe he should have payed a little more atention to what Neville had said. I think Harry's a natural leader when there's danger around, but the Ministry was a fiasco. Especially that last scene. It the Order hadn't burst into the doors at that moment, the wizarding world would be doomed!!!!!!!!

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rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 11:08 am (#29 of 1448)

Half of what I say is meaningless
You think Harry would have given it to her? I don't for some reason...

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OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 11:21 am (#30 of 1448)

No way would Harry have given it to her, he would have purposely destroyed it first, imo. I know this is Neville's thread, but I have to add here that the way Harry played Bellatrix in front of the DE's in the prophecy room was brilliant. He completely took control of that situation, despite Lucius trying to warn her to watch her self with Harry. I think Neville was shown there that the DE's were fallible, and his confidence in himself and Harry soared, which enabled him to battle alongside Harry with a clear head, even if he did end up with a thick tongue.

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Earo - Sep 2, 2003 12:02 pm (#31 of 1448)

Could Mandrake be used as a core for a wand? With it's restorative properties and Neville's talents in herbology he could work on a way to help his Mom and Dad return to their normal selves. I mean Prof. Lockhart is getting better from a memory charm so with a little help couldn't the Longbottoms get better too. I totally see Neville as a Healer.

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Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 2, 2003 12:14 pm (#32 of 1448)

Earo- Unless he buys his wand from anybody other than olivander he is unlikely to get anything other tha Dragon Heartstring, Phenoix or Unicorn hair (PS ukp64).

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Brave ol' Neville - Sep 2, 2003 2:19 pm (#33 of 1448)

Used to be Seek W.
I think Neville showed great courage throughout Op. In the next two books, I'm guessing that Neville will become a very strong personn, just like his fathers and mother were. Neville was afraid of magic, and what happened to his parents but he didn't relize it. But in the past events, Neville opened up all those feelings inside of him and be came strong again.

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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 7:56 am (#34 of 1448)

Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Do you think stinksap has anything to do with the MimMim's magical properties? Because Harry got a mouthfull of that on the Hogwarts Express as well as Neville...

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Sinister Kittens - Sep 3, 2003 8:27 am (#35 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Earo - re: "I could see Neville as a Healer". Do you think he could be the mystery student that becomes a teacher? Possibly Herbology or an assistant in the hospital wing?

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Earo - Sep 3, 2003 9:18 am (#36 of 1448)

Maybe he could assist Prof Sprout. It might also be interesting to see him get the inside scoop from helping in the Hospital wing. Someone is always getting hurt at Hogwarts.

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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 11:05 am (#37 of 1448)

Earo, I thought we had the inside scoop from the hospital wing, being as it's usually one of our three in there...

Smile

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Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 3, 2003 11:07 am (#38 of 1448)

I thought the unexpected teacher was Harry teaching DA. I could be wrong.

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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 11:14 am (#39 of 1448)

That thought occured to me as well, that Harry had fulfilled the "unexpected" teacher part with the DA.

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Hem Hem - Sep 3, 2003 8:05 pm (#40 of 1448)

Neville for Potions!

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Brave ol' Neville - Sep 4, 2003 7:05 pm (#41 of 1448)

Used to be Seek W.
Neville = Auror!

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Paul Patil - Sep 4, 2003 9:12 pm (#42 of 1448)

Does it strike anyone else that Voldie didn't, as DD asserts, choose Harry to mark as his equal, but rather merely got to him first. I'd imagine that having successfully killed Harry, Voldie would have set out after Neville. He wouldn't want to take any chances and certainly wouldn't mind killing "the spare".

PaulPatil

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S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 9:27 pm (#43 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I think he did, in fact, choose Harry over Neville and that's why the Potters knew he was after them some time before they were killed.

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haymoni - Sep 5, 2003 10:22 am (#44 of 1448)

I didn't read too much into Neville keeping the bubble gum wrapper that Alice gave him. It was something from his mother. What else will he ever get from her? However... Dumbledore told Harry that the Longbottoms didn't know Neville when he visited them. Are things starting to change??

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Sly Girl - Sep 5, 2003 12:09 pm (#45 of 1448)

oh! Very interesting. I had forgotten about DD saying that. hmm. Maybe DD just assumed or are things starting to change? Maybe Mrs Longbottom didn't know who Neville was exactly.

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Olivia Wood - Sep 5, 2003 3:06 pm (#46 of 1448)

Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I don't get it... Why would she have to know who he was in order to give him a bubblegum wrapper?

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Earo - Sep 6, 2003 2:32 pm (#47 of 1448)

The scene is more touching if Alice knows it's Neville. She does not give the wrapper to the nurse or to Grandma. Things are changing at St. Mungo's. Could it just be that DD doesn't know about the wrappers?

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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 2:57 pm (#48 of 1448)

Let it snow!
She could think Neville is someone else, a specific someone else, and that's why she keeps giving the wrappers just to him....

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Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 3:21 pm (#49 of 1448)

Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Ohhh... I get it. Thank you. Smile

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Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 3:53 pm (#50 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I'm of the 'wrappers-mean-something' set, simply because it is a little detail that grabbed my attention. So far, when such a little detail has done so, JKR has brought it up again. However, I don't quite believe in the whole anagram thing.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:06 am

*Lady Penelope* - Sep 7, 2003 8:57 am (#51 of 1448)
You should never underestimate how important a wardrobe based around the colour pink can be when you are planning to save the world...
Here's a little something that I've been thinking about. (I'm not sure if it's better suited for this thread or the Snape thread, so please move it if it would be better elsewhere! Thanks!) Harry and Neville are the two most picked on students in Snape's class. But there are plenty of other students in the class who aren't that great at potions. Doesn't Ron often have difficulties getting his potions right? But Snape doesn't pick on him. As far as we know, Snape didn't have any beef with either of Neville's parents, so there goes that reason to be mean. Does Snape know something we don't about Neville? He was in league with Voldie right around the time both kids were being born and the prophecy was being made, right? There's definitely more to the Neville story. Any thoughts on what it could be? Maybe we'll find out that James and Alice were siblings, so Neville and Harry are cousins, or something crazy like that!

I love that he's getting more confident in himself and think that he'll play a vital role in Voldemort's downfall. However, as mentioned before, the books are called HARRY POTTER and the _______. Not Neville Longbottom and the ________. I would almost feel cheated if Neville ended up being the subject of the prophecy and was the one to kill Voldemort in the end. Not that it wouldn't be nice to see him triumph, but Harry is the main character, so I really think that he'll be the one to have the big finale. Neville will play a vital role in Voldemort's downfall, but I don't think he'll be the main hero.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 10:45 am (#52 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Lady Penelope: ->Maybe we'll find out that James and Alice were siblings, so Neville and Harry are cousins, or something crazy like that! <-

That might explain his treatment of Neville but that would mean that both Alice and her brother had kids at the exact same time, plus Lily and her sister had kids at approximately the same time. How weird would that be? Not that I'm saying it couldn't happen, but that it would just be weird.

Mayber there was something between the Longbottoms and Snape that we'll find out about. Or, maybe Snape sees some of himself in Neville and that's why he picks on himself (think of the memory of Snape trying to mount the bucking broomstick)....

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Professor Kosh - Sep 7, 2003 10:56 am (#53 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I think Ms. Jones is on to something there. I think Snape may very well see something in Neville that reminds him of his younger self. There is an excellent essay on Neville in the Red Hen publications --http://www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html-- that address this very issue.

As for Neville being related to Harry, I think it would be interesting, but I can't get over the fact that, if James were closely related to the Longbottoms (like brother), that Harry would have heard about it by now. Harry has so few family, and combined with his fame, that anyone who could claim kinship with him would have done so by now. If Harry does have any family (other than the Dursleys) left, they are distant (rather like Sirius and the Weasleys).

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rettoP yrraH - Sep 7, 2003 12:22 pm (#54 of 1448)

Half of what I say is meaningless
I found a mistake either on JRK's part or Nevills part. In book 1 Nevill is says that his family was scared that he was a full Muggle! Then in Book 2 Nevill is scared that he is a Squib! Now. this can be another Threashals mistake in the sence that Squibs are intoduced in the 2nd book...but if not......

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Paul Patil - Sep 7, 2003 10:10 pm (#55 of 1448)

To me, the prophecy simply cannot be about Neville for the simple reason that Harry was able to remove it from the shelf and not suffer madness like Broderick Bode. PaulPatil

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schoff - Sep 7, 2003 10:36 pm (#56 of 1448)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Paul--There's probably a charm placed on the prophecy balls that only allow the people labeled to be able to pick it up. Harry's name does have a ? mark first, so his name had to have been added after the ball was given it's first spell.

Sam--since JKR didn't bring up the whole "muggle-born" vs "pure-blood" ("squib" and "mudblood" too) stuff until CoS, I'm going to agree with your second theory, and assume it's like the threstrals. A term she just didn't want to introduce yet.

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Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 1:34 am (#57 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
The prophecy doesn't refer to Neville for the simple fact that, as part of it, it says that the Dark Lord will 'mark' the one. Harry was 'marked', Neville wasn't. Does this mean Neville does not have a role to play? Of course not.

Someone said earlier that Neville 'deserved' to hear the prophecy. Why? Just because he might have fit it, before Volde attacked Harry as an infant? It obviously refers to Harry, and I think Neville has been through enough without having this on his mind as well. The prophecy has not affected his life directly in any way. I think he rather 'deserves' to not have this 'near miss' in his past on his mind.

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Hem Hem - Sep 8, 2003 4:29 pm (#58 of 1448)

"The prophecy has not affected his life directly in any way"

That we don't know for sure, Kosh. I wouldn't be too surprized if the prophecy had something to do with the backstory for the Longbottoms' torture.

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Madame Librarian - Sep 8, 2003 4:35 pm (#59 of 1448)

Yesss, HH. I posted earlier or on the Annex that the Longbottoms will turn out to still be alive because of Neville's possible importance to the Prophecy (i.e., Voldie may need them for something, information probably). I don't think that necessarily means he's the One and our Harry will just stand on the sidelines scratching his scar; just that maybe Voldie is confused about who is his true enemy. Ciao. Barb

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Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 9:50 pm (#60 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Granted, Hem Hem. The prophecy may have been motivation for the torture (if they had hidden Neville).

Mme. Librarian: IMHO, if Volde were confused about the true enemy, he would have killed or had killed BOTH of them. Also, didn't the Longbottom's torture happen AFTER Volde's defeat? I thought it was because they were Aurors and the DEs were trying to find Volde. However, their torture could easily have been because of the prophecy. I can hear Bellatrix saying, "Where is the boy?". If so, then they may have been protecting Neville (whereever they may have hidden him). This is just another reason why Neville doesn't really need to know the Prophecy ("they suffered because they were protecting you"). He has enough guilt (about being often terrible in lessons) without knowing that as well.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2003 11:41 am (#61 of 1448)

I think Neville deserves to hear the prophecy. Voldemort only knows about the first part of the prophecy. That means, he only knows about the part, that speaks about Harry and Neville, and he doesn't know, that Neville isn't marked. Maybe Voldemort wants to get sure and eliminate both possible candidates. Therefore I think it would really be safer, if Neville knows the truth.

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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:39 pm (#62 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Good point Neville. Neville could be in danger. However, with all the resistance that Harry has presented, with the number of times Harry has lead to the defeat of Volde's plans, that I'm quite sure Volde is very sure that Harry is the one. But, perhaps another DE will remember Neville?

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Sinister Kittens - Sep 9, 2003 2:43 pm (#63 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
agree Professor Kosh. Otherwise why would Voldie only try to interrupt Harrys dreams/thoughts? (I know that it's possibly that Neville has been receiving weird dreams etc. but we do not read of any strange occurances around DD)

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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 4:32 pm (#64 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Someone in another thread (I think they posted in the wrong one, and it'll be moved soon), made a case that Volde had gone after Neville before Harry, and the AK failed on him too, but he doesn't remember it or suppressed it. I think this highly unlikely, as it would give no reason for Neville's survival of the AK (I doubt highly that someone would be born immune to AK) while Harry has a very good reason in place. Also, if this were so, Volde wouldn't have left it at that and gone after Harry, as such survival would confirm his view of the Prophecy and he would have tried to kill Neville some other way, or at least kidnap him. Even if he couldn't do this, Neville wouldn't have been ignored by Volde and the DEs as he so far seems to have been.

That said, it is still possible that Neville was on the list to go get, but Volde's defeat at the Potters convinced everyone that Harry was the Prophecy child.

I think Harry and Neville will grow close because of this Prophecy, and Neville may have a role in Volde's downfall, but I think it is pretty confirmed that Harry is the one.

Finally, to address Kittens: I agree it's possible that Neville had been having weird dreams, but if so, I think he would have told someone (Harry?). Neville doesn't seem to suffer from the same problem of pride and 'I'll go it alone' that Harry does. Of course, Harry has been alone most of his life, so it's not too surprising that he often has this attitude. The Dursleys certainly implanted the idea that his problems weren't worth bothering others over.

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Maollelujah - Sep 9, 2003 4:56 pm (#65 of 1448)

I don't think that Neville is the one in the prophecy.

First, if Voldie had any worries about Neville, one would think that the DEs would have cared more about meeting him in OP.

I don't think Bellatrix and the ones that tortured the Longbottoms were after knowledge of the prophecy or Neville, but rather the whereabouts of their master, as Bellatrix says, "We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!" (GOF)

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megfox - Sep 10, 2003 2:03 pm (#66 of 1448)

My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Yeah, but maybe they thought finding one or the other of the "prophecy boys" would be able to help bring him back... And they can't torture the Potters to find Harry, because they are already deceased.

Just a thought!

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Gryffin - Sep 10, 2003 7:06 pm (#67 of 1448)

I still think that Neville might be the one in the prophecy. The prophecy does not say that the mark will be a scar (it only says "...Mark him as his equal..."). We only assume that it is a scar because of Harry. Honestly why does the mark have to be a physical mark anyway?

The Prophecy also does not mention at what age or at what time the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal. Neville might not have been marked yet. That could be waiting for him in one of the next 2 books (Most likely the last one, because then we would all know who was going to defeated Voldemort)

Just some thoughts I was having. Let me know what you think.

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Maollelujah - Sep 10, 2003 7:44 pm (#68 of 1448)

If we take that view, it doesn't really mention what year that the boy will be born, so Ron and Hermy might have a child at the end of the seventh book and it might mean him/her. Or maybe Moody will have a child with Tonks at the end of July in book six... Or even Lupin...

I have a feeling that we are pretty safe assuming that the prophecy refers to Harry and not Neville.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 8:15 pm (#69 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Actually the prophecy says that the birth of the "one" approaches so I'd assume that the prophecy happened in the same year, a few months before Harry and Neville were born. As far as Nev. being marked as Voldy's equal. What similarities are there between the two? There are several things that point to Harry and Voldy being equals, even their physical descriptions are similar. Tom Riddle remarks in CoS how similar they are, both orphans, both living with Muggles that didn't want them, ect. I think this points to the "mark" being the scar that Voldy gave Harry because the backfiring curse is what gave Harry the Parselmouth ability, which he didn't have before, along with a few other powers to complete the equality.... So, in summation, I don't think Neville is the one of the prophecy....

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Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 8:21 pm (#70 of 1448)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Gryffin: You bring up an excellent point. It is certainly possible. However, I think that would be highly unlikely, given the series focus on Harry, and the fact that there are only two books left.

We are given no hint that Neville could be the one, other than his fitting the first sentance of the prophecy. For the first 4 books, he really wasn't much more than a minor supporting character. It would be very odd to me to bring him into greater importance that Harry.

Also, for all his statements at the end of OoP, I just don't see DD as being wrong about this. While he can make mistakes, it seems they happen when DD thinks with his heart. He has yet to be wrong when using his intellect, and DD realized after Harry's attack and survival, that Harry was the one (a decision reached without undue sentiment, not knowing Harry at the time).

Edit: The all-wise and quick fingered Ms. Jones beat me to the post, and has some excellent points.

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megfox - Sep 11, 2003 12:50 pm (#71 of 1448)

My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Also, the word "mark" doesn't only mean to physically make a signal (like a scar) on someone to say that this is the person. If you mark someone as your enemy, that only means that you have made it clear to yourself (and tohers) that this person is your enemy. Kind of like defining them as your enemy publicly. So my interpretation was that Voldemort marking Harry as the one the prophecy was intended for just means that of the children that were born on July 31, he decided that the one he had to worry about was Harry, and in this way, he "marked" him. It is only that reason that Harry is the one that will fulfill the prophecy. And, if you follow this logic, if he had never made a choice and had not gone after the Potters or the Longbottoms, then none of this would have happened, because Voldemort never chose, or "marked" this child as his equal. So there is another thing that Voldemort overlooked in his quest for immortality - had he never attacked Harry, he wouldn't have caused the rest of the prophecy to be able to be fulfilled (of course, this begs the question of whether or not a prophecy can come true if someone decides that they will not comply with part of the prophecy - like if Voldemort had never heard the prophecy, would it have come true? 'Cause if he'd never heard it, he wouldn't have gone after Harry, and then he wouldn't have AK'd himself accidentally, and this whole thing would have gone down differently...)

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Olivia Wood - Sep 11, 2003 5:19 pm (#72 of 1448)

Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Ah, but the prophecy would never have been made if Voldemort wasn't going to have heard it and done his part in fullfilling it, intentionally or unintentionally.

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Gred-n-Forge - Sep 13, 2003 8:38 pm (#73 of 1448)

How about a toilet seat to brighten your day?
I agree with Olivia. Voldemort would have fulfilled his part in the prophecy, one way or another.

Voldemort's reaction to the prophecy somehow brings to mind the ol' Oedipus Rex story. . .

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jakie - Sep 17, 2003 11:13 am (#74 of 1448)

At the end of OP, Madam Pomphrey stated that not all scars where visable, that mental scars where sometimes the worst - (excuse my edit) - Neville has the mental scars or mark - what do you think?

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 17, 2003 11:25 am (#75 of 1448)

Yes, this might be a hint that it is Neville, whom the prophecy is about. I am sure Dumbledore's interpretation of the prophecy is somehow wrong. My main reason for this is, because Firenze said, that Divination is a very tricky business. Neville having a mental mark (of course Voldemort is not directly responsible for this) is IMO a very good idea, but there might be other possible explanations. But I think the interpretation of the prophecy Dumbledore gave to Harry is somehow wrong.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 11:50 am (#76 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Take a look at the The North Tower #2 on MuggleNet, Neville or Harry: Who's the Real One?. It has some very intersting points...

Excerpt: It says "mark him as his equal" not just "mark him." Neville might have emotional scars caused by Voldy, but in what way is Neville his equal exactly?.... Harry has a strong connection with Voldemort: they can enter each other's minds, Harry can feel what Voldy feels and know when he's close by, they come from very similar backgrounds, their wands are brothers, they both speak Parseltongue (the only two living wizards who do), and (as Tom Riddle says in CoS) they even look somewhat alike..... Every fight between Harry and Voldemort ends with neither really wins. Harry doesn't kill Voldy and vice versa. They each have one smaller victory over the other: Harry "kills" the diary in CoS, and Voldemort manages to restore his body in GoF. So far, they are pretty equal.

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AlbusRiddle - Sep 17, 2003 2:55 pm (#77 of 1448)

I think I posted this in another thread, but here goes.

This is a hypothetical situation that I've had in my head:

Voldemort finds out about the prophecy, or at least part of it. He knows about the two boys, and decides that Neville, the pure-blood and child of two aurors must be "the one" so he heads over to Neville's house first to kill him. He apparates into baby Neville's room and uses the AK, HOWEVER, nothing happens at all...no scar, no rebound, no death. Voldemort is shocked, but he hears Frank and Alice Longbottom coming up the stairs and elects to leave, rather than take on two outstanding aurors. He figures he'll just come back later and throw the kid out the window, killing him the old fashioned way. So, the same night, he decides to go after Harry, just to tie up loose ends. He's angry, so he marches up to the front door, kills both parents, and then goes after Harry, and the curse rebounds (due to nothing special on Harry's part, but his MOTHER's sacrifice). Voldemort is almost killed. Naturally, he then believes that HARRY, the kid who almost killed him, is "the one."

BUT, Neville, unlike Harry, remembers the encounter perfectly, and he remembers the evil face of Voldemort, AND, through Voldemort's AK, Neville felt all of the pure hatred within Voldemort, and was left mentally scarred for life. HOWEVER, like every other wizard child, he grew up hearing the tales about the great Harry Potter, and has spent his whole life trying to convince himself that his own encounter must have been a dream or something.

Through this scenario, Neville would have powers the dark lord knows not (resisting the AK on his own), and he was originally marked by Voldemort as his equal.

I know it's a reach, but.....

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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 17, 2003 3:27 pm (#78 of 1448)

Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
It's a reach, yes, but it's not that much of a reach honestly... I think it's actually quite possible. ^_^

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S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 6:51 pm (#79 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I don't see it. If he saw the AK have no effect on Neville then, based on what little he knew of the Prophecy, it would have confirmed that Neville was the One and he would have no reason to go after Harry or to leave Neville, even if his Auror parents were coming. He could have easily left and showed up again twenty minutes later with an army of DEs to finish the kid and his parents off. Besides, DD says that Voldemort had chosen Harry out of the two long before the events at Godric's Hallow. He had been chasing them for some time and that was why DD finally suggested the Fidelius Charm. Keep in mind the line "He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you", there are equalities between Harry and Voldemort that just don't exist between Voldy and Neville (see my last post). And then there is the wording of the Prophecy itself, "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal", the Dark Lord will choose his equal, he chose Harry....

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AlbusRiddle - Sep 18, 2003 4:02 pm (#80 of 1448)

But you have to remember that the "He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you" line wasjust Dumbledore's assumption. Basically, if Voldemort HAD chosen Harry first, that would be the only logical reason. As for him leaving Neville, Voldemort doesn't strike me as the type that enjoys real fights. He sprang up on the potters because it was HIS initiative, but with two Longbottoms coming up behind him, I can picture him saying, "Ah, the heck with it, I'll come back later." He seems to only fight on his terms, and I don't think he sees anyone other than Dumbledore as being worthy of a true duel. I'm not saying I actually believe what I said, mind you, but I think it's an OK shot.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 4:24 pm (#81 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Again, though, he could have had a fight on his terms if he came back twenty minutes later with an army of DEs, he would have both the element of surprise and the odds in his favor.... And, there is still the whole "his equal" thing. Neville shares no similarities with Voldy while Harry shares almost every similarity with Voldy. And since when don't we trust DD's assumptions?

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Maollelujah - Sep 18, 2003 9:50 pm (#82 of 1448)

I think that Voldie's actions in GoF and OotP, pretty much cancel out that he had attack Neville first. And remember in the DoM when Harry asks why did he [Voldie] want to steal a prophecy about me, Malfoy says, "About both of you, Potter, about both of you... Haven't you ever wondered why the Dark Lord tried to kill you as a baby?"

I believe the meaning is pretty obvious that Voldie considers the prophecy about Harry and not Neville.

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Becky Palmer - Sep 22, 2003 4:37 am (#83 of 1448)

I think Neville proved himself a force to be reckoned with in OOTP. No wonder the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor. He was defiant, he was willing to protect that prophecy, even though his nose and wand had been broken and even though he was tortured repeatedly he still stood tall. It was him who was there with Harry to the finish in the Death Chamber in the DOM. Him, not Ron, and not Hermione either, though they would have been if cicumstances hadn't dictated otherwise. I can believe that his folks escaped Voldykins three times, they passed that courage onto their son. He threw himself into the DA classes with passion. He stunned a few people in the DOM. I hope Draco has a harder time now picking on Neville. Neville is fighting for what he believes in. That takes a rare kind of bravery.

I hope that now he will have his own wand, Neville will become more powerful. This power will be needed as the war continues. Harry needs more allies to "fill up" the membership of the next generation of the Order. Ron and Hermione are great, but they're simply not enough. More are needed, like Neville and Luna. Oddballs though they may be considered, they proved themselves at the DOM to be valuable. Luna because she was uninjured, and Neville because of his bravery.

I think Neville realised at the end of GOF that Dumbledore and Harry were right about the return of Voldykins. And that those against whom his parents had battled so strenuously were going to be active and threatening once more. Perhaps this was the genesis and blossoming of Neville's abilities. And now that Neville has faced his fears and lived to tell the tale, he will likely become a powerful wizard indeed.

I'm hoping that the DA continues, out in the open this time, with Harry continuing as leader. I think that Harry as a teacher, like Lupin, has the wonderful ability to bring out the best in students - prior to joining the DA, the only class where Neville showed any proficiency was Herbology. Lupin was able to teach Harry to summon up inner happiness in order to conjure a Patronus and fight off Dementors. Harry has also had success in teaching others how to conjure Patronuses. Perhaps Harry can be as good a teacher and mentor to Neville as what Lupin was to him?

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Joost! - Sep 22, 2003 6:26 am (#84 of 1448)

Second line of information
I agree with Sarah that Harry and not Neville is "The One" in the prophecy. It would be very strange if the entire series turns out to be about the classmate of the one who restores peace in the WW. It has to be Harry because he's the main character.

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skh - Sep 23, 2003 8:27 am (#85 of 1448)

Sinister Kittens, a copy of my post from the Longbottoms thread...

I want that theory (that Neville becomes a healer) to work too! I like to think that Neville's adeptness at Herbology will lead him to be a healer and that he will help unlock his parents from their madness - maybe working out the riddle of the gum wrappers will help him do that? However, maybe Neville's brave stance at the battle of MoM and his getting to grips with Defense against the Dark Arts means that he will develop a hidden talent for DA and become an Auror?!!

What do you think? (Am off home for the evening now, but look forward to an update tomorrow AM as I have forgotten how to work since I found the forum!!)

Sarah

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Sinister Kittens - Sep 23, 2003 8:35 am (#86 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Sarah - I agree, but I also complete this tomorrw for the same reasons! Hopefully we will his talents grow in line with his new found confidence in the next two books.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 23, 2003 8:59 am (#87 of 1448)

My guess is still, that it is Neville, who will become a Hogwarts teacher. I see three possible subjects for him to teach:

1. Herbology, of course 2. DADA, seing that he did pretty good in DADA under Harry and Lupin. 3. Potions, in case Rowling wants to be really ironic.

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GryffindorPhoenix - Sep 23, 2003 1:36 pm (#88 of 1448)

Ron says in PS/SS, English Version P192

". And Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." What do we know? Hagrid let DD accidentaly but still let him down, so maybe Neville will play for England.

"We've got more chance of winning the Quidditch Cup than Dad becoming Minister For Magic" This is another thing Ron has said, I know this belongs in the Arthur Weasley thread but many people say what Ron jokes about actually comes true!

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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 23, 2003 2:18 pm (#89 of 1448)

Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Look out, you're double posting!

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Denise P. - Sep 23, 2003 2:38 pm (#90 of 1448)

Ravenclaw Pony
I deleted the double post Just so everyone knows, you have 30 minutes after making a post that YOU can edit or delete it.

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schoff - Sep 23, 2003 2:47 pm (#91 of 1448)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 3:48 pm
Actually, Denise, I've been able to delete well after the 30 min limit. All my posts (even the ones from weeks ago) show up with the delete option. I just can't edit after 30 mins.

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 1, 2003 2:00 am (#92 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Okay, this goes way back to something Professor Kosh said that rang a bell with me.

"The prophecy doesn't refer to Neville for the simple fact that, as part of it, it says that the Dark Lord will 'mark' the one. Harry was 'marked', Neville wasn't."

How do we say that Harry was "marked" and Neville wasnt? Wasnt Neville's future development stunted by the torture of his parents or some other unnamed event from his past that he seems to have forgotten? I would consider an emotional scar a "mark", although from what we know so far of his past Voldemort himself didnt actually cause it directly, but just a thought to ponder.

I just think there is really something to all of the memory references in regard to him. Something happened that he has blocked out and must remember by the end of the series in my view... a real "AHA!" for us readers that will solve the Neville mystery that is unravelling slowly. Besides, even though the series is named after HP and it follows him as a main character throughout, it doent mean that something increadibly clever and twisty at the end couldnt happen to make it stand out as a real literary achievement. Harry is forced to deal with all of the fame while Neville develops in the background without being snuffed out by all of the attention.

Another thing I find funny is that of all people, Harry chose to tell Ern and Stan that his name was "Neville Longbottom" because it was te first to come to mind. How odd that is to me now...

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Lenka - Oct 1, 2003 3:28 am (#93 of 1448)

ahhhh essays
Yeah, I noticed that too.

There was a point in time when I actually concidered Harry and Neville were switched about as babies, and that harry's really Neville and Neville's Harry... but that's stretching it way too far. :-)

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Madame Librarian - Oct 1, 2003 3:57 am (#94 of 1448)

Oooooh, Wendelin, good catch--I never noticed that. I agree that Harry giving his name as Neville's is possibly a huge clue to..um...something. I'm not prepared to make a distinct prediction, but somehow the two boys will work together in some way. I also agree that it would be a tad disappointing to have the end hinge totally on Neville, so I don't think it will be quite that twist in plot. Something much more clever and unanticipated perhaps. The names of characters--given ones, aliases, etc.--are usually loaded with meaning and symbolism (or clues, if you will), and we know that JKR uses that classic literary technique throughout her tale.

Ciao. Barb

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 1, 2003 5:45 am (#95 of 1448)

I also thought for a moment that Harry and Neville might have been switched. But I don't think so anymore. Harry looks to much like James and Neville looks like his mother.

I agree that - memory charm or not -, somewehere in Neville's memory is an important information.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 1, 2003 7:28 am (#96 of 1448)

Much of what happens in the books is mind related... Harry thinking Snape could read minds, the possession of Ginny through Riddle's diary, Legilimency and Occlumency, the "obliviate" spell that bounced back on Lockhart, Bertha Jorkins and Voldie getting into her memory, for instance.

Perhaps Legilimency might play a role in bringing out whatever is lurking in Neville's mind. If not that, maybe Neville will be around when some type of reversal memory spell is learned in a DADA class.

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Fawkes Forever - Oct 1, 2003 7:39 am (#97 of 1448)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
'maybe Neville will be around when some type of reversal memory spell is learned in a DADA class.'

Oh I like this idea Weeny Owl...... I wonder would they be doing such advanced magic in their 6th/7th year.... then again, the NEWTS are 'advanced' level magic..... would make for a very interesting plot! Maybe the spell could be 'Reinstate' as opposed to Obliviate

I've always been a fan of the theory that Nevilles memory is so poor because he's had a few memory charms performed on him as a child. I for one would love to know what secrets are locked in the brain of Mr Longbottom.....

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LilyP - Oct 1, 2003 6:25 pm (#98 of 1448)

I agree with the idea that Neville has a memory charm on him and that is why he is so forgetful. There is going to be something very important about this in the end, but I don't believe Neville is the one spoken of in the prophecy. There is a wonderful article on mugglenet.com about just this topic. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The nature of prophecies in mythology usually shows that the prophecy is fulfilled despite the people involved. No matter how you try to interfere, the prophecy will be fulfilled. Voldemort tried to prevent the prophecy from occurring by trying to kill baby Harry, but in doing so, he fulfilled the first step of the prophecy by marking Harry. Voldemort did not personally mark Neville, his DE's did. I think this eliminates Neville from contention right here.

Wendalin, your idea about the connection between Harry and Neville, I think is right on. Neville will be very important to the final conclusion. There probably is more to the connection between the boys than we now know. I agree that there is significance to Harry using Neville's name in PoA. I can't wait to get more clues in Year 6.

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A-is-for-Amy - Oct 1, 2003 8:36 pm (#99 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
"I think Neville proved himself a force to be reckoned with in OOTP. No wonder the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor. He was defiant, he was willing to protect that prophecy, even though his nose and wand had been broken and even though he was tortured repeatedly he still stood tall."

I agree with this whole heartedly! What I think is even more extraordinary is that Neville took off for London on a thestral, NOT KNOWING WHY! He had no way of knowing what was going on with Harry's visions or with Sirius - as far as he knew, Sirius was still a wanted murderer! He stood and protected the prophecy and his friends, just because he trusted them and wanted to help. That is what true bravery means to me. I think that Neville will be back in book six with a new wand, and new attitude and as a force to behold! I can feel the winds of change beginning to blow!

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 1, 2003 9:53 pm (#100 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Another thing that really boggles me about being a possible clue is the Remembrall. I mean, Malfoy was just so fixated on him having that Remembrall... and then took it from him. Its been known that Draco has known some inside information from his father and his contacts before, could this be a hint that maybe there is something they dont want Neville to remember? Dunno... thats been bugging me for a year now.

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:07 am

skh - Oct 2, 2003 5:20 am (#101 of 1448)
I totally agree - I think that Neville's parents will somehow be "cured" and this will somehow be the key to fully unlocking Neville. I still love the idea that Neville will become a healer (due to his prowess at herbology) and that this will lead him to being his parents saviour, then Neville's parents can go on to play a key part in the downfall of Voldie.

However, I do not think that Neville is the one - JKR is messing with us, probably suspecting that she'll spark a million of these "is it really Neville?!!" debates! Neville is an important character, he's been pretty much one of the main "sub" characters all along and I know JKR has a reason for that, he will be dragged forward and play his piece.

I love the idea about the Remembrall as well, Wendelin.

Sarah

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LilyP - Oct 2, 2003 2:38 pm (#102 of 1448)

I think that Neville will be back in book six with a new wand, and new attitude and as a force to behold!

I agree! The idea of Neville getting a new wand is interesting. I flashed back to Year 1, Harry at Olivander's. Olivander told Harry that the wand picks the person and no one really does good work with someone else's wand. Neville has been using his father's wand, not one picked for/by him. I think this is going to make a big difference in Neville's attitude and aptitude.

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Sly Girl - Oct 2, 2003 6:17 pm (#103 of 1448)

We can use Ron as a comparison- Ron had Charlie's wand for the first and second books and then got his own. Did his magical skills change any? And is that because of the wand or because he just got older? I wonder if Neville's Gran thought something in the wand would 'rub off' from his father. It's probably not really possible, but it might be a superstition she would have.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 2, 2003 6:43 pm (#104 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I think a new wand will improve Neville's magical ability. It will be a wand chosen just for him and not yet another reminder of his father (I'm sure he probably hears his Gran comparing him to his father more than enough without the constant on-hand reminder), and this will improve his confidence and self-esteem which will lead to an improvement in his magical abilities....

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Sly Girl - Oct 2, 2003 6:45 pm (#105 of 1448)

Oh I think so too, I just don't think Neville's going to be the next Dumbledore, that's all. (yes, I know, no one has said that)

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mischa fan - Oct 2, 2003 6:49 pm (#106 of 1448)

Easy being green, it is not
I think Neville will improve, but I think it will have more to do with the fact that he helped to take on full grown DeathEaters and lived to tell about it, more so then a new wand.

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A-is-for-Amy - Oct 2, 2003 8:18 pm (#107 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
The main reason I think that a new wand will work wonders for Neville, is because JKR bothered to tell us in OoP that Neville had not been using his own wand this whole time. She simply would not have mentioned it if it weren't going to be relevant later.

I hope that Neville, who improved so much with his father's wand last year in the D.A., will do so well with a new wand, that he begins to rival some of the better students (especially in DADA), that it will make Voldemort second guess who he should have "marked as his equal."

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Gryffin - Oct 2, 2003 9:27 pm (#108 of 1448)

I also agree that a new wand will be a big factor in the "New Neville" along with his exposure to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant (that was discussed in the earlier threads). I am looking forward to seeing how Neville will be portrayed in 6 & 7.

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- Aug 24, 2008 3:44 pm (#109 of 1448)

(empty post - Elanor)

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 2, 2003 11:37 pm (#110 of 1448)

I always thought Neville using his father's wand was sort of symbolic, another sign, that he lives in his father's shadow, or something like that. And now, that the wand is broken, Neville starts to come into his own. Ron, who lived in his brothers' shadow, had the wand of one of his brothers. So I think this fits, too.

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 2, 2003 11:54 pm (#111 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Well, in the same sense he could be feeling as though his father was a great wizard and look what happened to him... Maybe the thought of not being good enough comes from the idea that "if my father was a great auror and it still happened to him, why should I think that I could do anything good?" Especially when coupled with his lack of magical ability as a child.. he thought he must be a squib.

I think he'll get a new wand, and it wont make a huge difference - it will be his attitude change - not the change in focusing implements that really makes him shine. I'm still not clear on if wands in particular have their own inherent 'power' or if some are simply better suited to amplify a wizard/witches own potential. I see them as a tool for focusing energy personally. But I dont really know... hmmm...

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- Aug 24, 2008 3:44 pm (#112 of 1448)


(empty post - Elanor)- - - - - - - - - -



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haymoni - Oct 3, 2003 6:27 am (#113 of 1448)

Now that Neville has gone on this adventure and risked his life, I wonder if Gran's attitude will change towards him? She may become as proud of her grandson as she is her son.

Or, she may not want to lose Neville like she has "lost" her son and may tighten her grip on him.

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Susurro Notities - Oct 5, 2003 6:41 pm (#114 of 1448)

The idea of Voldemort second guessing his selection of opponents as suggested by Amy Alpin (Oct 2, 2003 9:18 pm #107 of 111) is an interesting one. Regardless of what the causative factors are Neville is sure to improve his magical skills in the coming books. Will that confuse Voldemort?

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siobhan - Oct 6, 2003 12:32 pm (#115 of 1448)

I don't think Neville has any ties to the prophecy as it has been confirmed that Harry has been marked and chosen by Voldemort but this doesn't mean he will not play a major part. I forsee Neville going through a battle of his own, like between Harry and voldie, he will have his own opponent perhaps Bellatrix and will not be part of the last battle between voldie and harry. I think in the end it will just come down to Harry and voldie.Just my thoughts

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skh - Oct 8, 2003 4:54 am (#116 of 1448)

Very interesting thoughts Susurro, but I agree with Siobhan really - it'll come down to Harry v Voldie in the end. Love the theory that Neville might get to take out Bellatrix - how cool would that be?!

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Susurro Notities - Oct 8, 2003 5:19 am (#117 of 1448)

When I said "The idea of Voldemort second guessing his selection of opponents ...is an interesting one." in my previous post I did not mean to suggest that Voldemort's adversary would change. Only that Voldemort may wonder if he chose correctly and that could mean trouble for Neville. Especially now that Neville is becoming a stronger wizard. The idea of Voldemort assigning someone like Bellatrix (not that she needs encouragement) to go after Neville would fit with Voldemort's growing concern about Neville.

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skh - Oct 9, 2003 7:16 am (#118 of 1448)

Aha - I see where you're coming from. Yes, that's a very good train of thought, I like it.

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MamaDeb - Oct 10, 2003 7:00 am (#119 of 1448)

Neville is already powerful. He's been powerful since the first book of the series - what he's lacked has been control and confidence.

For example, in their very first flying lesson, Neville gets on his broom and ends up at the top of a tower. Hermione, arguably the most powerful witch in her generation, could barely make her broom turn over.

When his spells go wrong, they do so spectacularly - melting cauldrons and explosions in Potions, tossing Flitwik around in Charms (everyone else was repelling cushions.)

I can't see someone with low power able to do any of these things. More likely, the spells would simply fail to work at all.

It's likely his poor control comes from his lack of confidence (probably helped, as said above, by his MimMim and by his successes in the DA and later the MoM), his poor memory (one wonders what memory was Obliviated from his mind, and by whom. I believe he saw his parents being cursed and was Memory charmed by well-meaning relatives) and his wand.

He'll have his own wand in book 6; his confidence and control are growing.

Hmm.

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Princess of Cliffies - Oct 11, 2003 11:27 pm (#120 of 1448)

I have a question that I'm not sure has been discussed yet and I was wondering if anyone has any insight on this....

According to what is said in the Order of the Phoenix - Neville has always been able to see the thestrals, but Harry who was supposed to have seen his parents' death did not.... So here's my question....

Who did Neville watch die?

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 12, 2003 1:28 am (#121 of 1448)

Neville saw his grandfather die. He said it to Umbridge, when Hagrid showed them the Thestrals.

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Madame Librarian - Oct 12, 2003 9:50 am (#122 of 1448)

We never get the details of Neville's granddad's death, do we? Wonder if it's just a natural dying-of-old-age thing, or if there's more to the story that JKR isn't telling us yet. Hmmm...could part of the mystery surrounding the Longbottoms in general include these missing details?

(Or, have I completely forgotten whole chunks of the story, and we do know the granddad details?)

Ciao. Barb

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 12, 2003 11:33 am (#123 of 1448)

No, we don't. Neville just said, he saw him die.

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Madame Librarian - Oct 12, 2003 11:43 am (#124 of 1448)

OK, then. The way Neville just injected that bit of information, might be just that--a bit of information and 'nuf said, there's no more to it. Or it could be one of those JKR throwaway lines that will come up again and be important.

Someone suggested something similar with Luna's mother's death. Yes, we know she was working on a spell, but the her comment was left hanging a little. What spell, when exactly, why was Luna there, etc.? (This last belongs on a thestral thread or the Luna one, sorry.)

Ciao. Barb

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 13, 2003 4:51 am (#125 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hmm.. well, seeing as the Longbottoms are wizards (I think), I'm guessing that it wasn't a natural death. I mean, overall wizards live longer than Muggles. Although, I never did quite figure out if he is pureblood or not? It seems in one book he thought he was a squib, and another he was part-Muggle. You cant be a squib if you arent from a pureblood family, right? But then again, Neville does get easily confused about things at times. Can anyone tell me what his bloodline is like? Im confused.

Anyway, erm... my point was that I think maybe there is something to all that. Like maybe he saw something when his grandfather died. Granfather Longbottom could have been at the house and been killed when Neville's parents were attacked and tortured. Neville would have been a few years older than Harry was, to witness what happened, and recalled seeing it enough that he can see Thestrals.

I think we decided that Harry didnt remember seeing his parents die because he was too little when it happened and then seeing Cedric's death is what made him be able to see them, right?

(Sorry... incoherent. Its 8am and Ive been up almost a full day. )

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 13, 2003 5:44 am (#126 of 1448)

In the chapter "The lost prophecy" Dumbledore called Neville a pure blood. Therefore his grandfather was probably a wizard, too.

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Sly Girl - Oct 13, 2003 10:03 am (#127 of 1448)

Personally, I think this might be a bit of a goof on JKR's part.. because in book one, Neville says 'they thought I was all-muggle for ages' which would imply that one of his parents was a muggle born.

And then in the 2nd book, I believe, we find out that they thought he was a 'squib' or maybe it's someone refers to him as a squib. Either way the distinction is made.

Squibs cannot happen outside pure-blood families. And Dumbledore says Neville was pure blood- so why have him say in the first book that they thought he was all-muggle?

I think it's an error and JKR changed her plans for Neville, starting in the 2nd book.

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LilyP - Oct 13, 2003 10:53 am (#128 of 1448)

The concept of Squib hadn't been introduced until the second book. Maybe she just decided to not introduce another new concept at that point. I wonder if we are making too big a deal about the distinction between squib and muggle. Maybe they are the same thing - interchangeable when referring to a non-magical person of wizarding lineage.

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Ovate - Oct 13, 2003 12:38 pm (#129 of 1448)

Hi all. This is really a wonderful forum. Very thoughtful posts here. This is my first.

I have a theory about Neville and the prophecy. If someone else has already had a similar theory I apologize.

Part of the prophecy states that

1) The Dark Lord must mark the One as his equal and 2) The One must have powers the Dark Lord knows not.

Its been made quite clear that Voldemort considers only pure-bloods to be his social equals. He thinks of Mixed-bloods and muggle born as social inferiors. When Voldemort learned of the prophecy he set out to eliminate the threat against him both in Neville and in Harry. He offered the Longbottoms a deal because Neville was the last of a pure-blood line. He was an equal. If the Longbottoms cooperated, he would spare their son’s life, but would cast a spell to remove the magic from him instead. The spell he cast damaged Neville’s ability to remember things. Because Harry was mixed blood Voldemort felt no compunction against killing him straight out. With the scar that he gave Harry, Voldemort marked Harry as his social inferior. In contrast, the damaged memory Voldemort gave Neville marked him as Voldemort’s social equal. Obviously, since Neville still had a bit of magic left in him, Voldemort must have missed something i.e. Neville had powers the Dark Lord knew not.

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Emily - Oct 13, 2003 1:43 pm (#130 of 1448)

Hi Ovate! Welcome to the Forum. Your theory is obviously very thought out, but I just don't see two Aurors making a deal with the Dark Lord, even to save their son's life. More likely they'd have gotten him to a safe place, and fought Voldemort.

Also, in your last line, are you suggesting that Neville is really the One? If so, there are a variety of sites that have editorials to disprove this. The best one I've seen is that JKR would not write a whole series about one person, and then change the hero in the last book.

Of course, I could have just read it wrong, and in that case you shoild totally disregard this...

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Ovate - Oct 13, 2003 1:59 pm (#131 of 1448)

Thanks Marauder5. So maybe there was no deal. Maybe Voldemort just thought that it would be bad public relations among his followers to kill the last of a pure-blood line . I don't see how Voldemort could be marking either Harry or Neville as his equal in terms of wizard skill. Even by the end of the seventh book I can't see Harry as Voldemort's equal. But in terms of social equality I can see him regarding all the Longbottoms as equals.

With regard to the titles of the books, well Harry has been the focus in all the books so far, but without Dumbledore he would surely have died. A case could be made that Dumbledore was the hero of book 5. He saved Harry from Voldemort as well as routing the rest of the Death Eaters. Still the book is called "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" as its written from his perspective and he is quite heroic. Harry can still be the focus and act in a heroic way in book 7 even if Neville ultimately kills Voldemort.

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Madame Librarian - Oct 13, 2003 2:08 pm (#132 of 1448)

Re: "...they thought I was all-Muggle for ages..."

With kids who don't live up to expectations or exhibit some behavior that doesn't jive with the family, people often make comments like, "he must have been delivered by aliens," or "those blue eyes, why, we think the milkman did it," or "poor Neville, so inept we're sure he must be all-Muggle."

They don't really mean it, but kids get talked about that way, and start to believe it. Also, it may be that Neville's little friends and neighbors said things like that, not his family. And, if there is such a thing as WW schools where pre-Magic studies are taught, his teachers could have been saying this about him. I see many ways to interpret that statement other than literally.

Ciao. Barb

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Sly Girl - Oct 13, 2003 3:57 pm (#133 of 1448)

I don't think so though, this is the wizarding world where the distinction between Muggle and Wizard is very definite. Judging by the other pureblood families we know, I can't see any of them calling someone who was inept a 'muggle' (except maybe the Malfoy's and to them it's a bad word anyway). And Neville is specifically talking about his FAMILY at that point- not just anyone.

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Susurro Notities - Oct 13, 2003 6:27 pm (#134 of 1448)

I thought the same thing Madame Librarian. When my kids are goofy I affectionately call them aliens. I can imagine a wizard or witch affectionately calling their child a Muggle.

Voldemort may not be enthusiastic about the pureblood issue. He may have seen the old families' commitment to pureblood status as a weakness that could be exploited to gain followers. It is not unusual for unprincipled power-seekers to adopt dogmas as a means to reach supremacy. Often those who do so have nothing but disdain for their followers.

I think Voldemort did mark his equal. His arrogance causes Voldemort to have more fear of a half blood like himself. Harry is someone who could turn out to be clever and powerful, he is not a pureblood who, Voldemort has found, can be tricked and led.

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 13, 2003 7:34 pm (#135 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Susurro Notities wrote:

I think Voldemort did mark his equal. His arrogance causes Voldemort to have more fear of a half blood like himself. Harry is someone who could turn out to be clever and powerful, he is not a pureblood who, Voldemort has found, can be tricked and led.

Yes, I think thats the key. Harry is a half-blood like Tom Riddle, that would make him his equal.

As for the being all-Muggle thing, I was thinking back to how Hagrid told Hermione that there wasnt any "pureblood" that didnt have a little Muggle in their lineage. So maybe the all-Muggle reference was something acknowledging that part of the wizarding bloodlines. Neville could have an all-wizarding blood family in the past several generations but have a few Muggles or Squibs further back in the ancestry that would be unknown... and that could be why they would say that about him. Like Mrs. Black.. she simply removed any offending family members from the family tree which would prevent future generations from possibly knowing the relation to the others...

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Susurro Notities - Oct 13, 2003 7:46 pm (#136 of 1448)

Interesting Wendelin the Weird. Neville may have been speaking out of school when he mentioned the Muggle thing. One of those we all know grandpa is a lushbut don't tell anybody things.

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 13, 2003 7:57 pm (#137 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Or like Ron's uncle, the accountant that noone ever talks about

HA! Grandpa the lush... *snicker* Great smiley!

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Princess of Cliffies - Oct 13, 2003 8:35 pm (#138 of 1448)

Thanks everyone for the enlightenment! I really appreciate it!! I thought I had read somewhere that Neville had seen his Grandfather die, but I couldn't find it when I looked for it! It is very important to the the ficcy that I am writing.... I must admit though that I didn't look back in the OotP because what I am writing is a year six to follow a year five ficcy that I wrote. And while I am putting a few similarites in my year six from JKR's OotP, I do not want to make it sound too much like the actual book, so I have avoided going back and reading it for a second time.

Thanks again! :-D

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Susurro Notities - Oct 13, 2003 8:38 pm (#139 of 1448)

So will it be Grandma and Grandpa are dentists in Hermione's family? (I searched, but dentists don't even have a smilie)

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S.E. Jones - Oct 16, 2003 10:57 am (#140 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Sly Girl: Personally, I think this might be a bit of a goof on JKR's part.. because in book one, Neville says 'they thought I was all-muggle for ages' which would imply that one of his parents was a muggle born. And then in the 2nd book, I believe, we find out that they thought he was a 'squib' or maybe it's someone refers to him as a squib. Either way the distinction is made.

I don't think wizards see much distinction between Muggles and Squibs, except for the fact that Squibs have wizarding connections. So I don't see it as being that strange that Neville used the term "all-Muggle" instead of "Squib" since there really isn't much of a difference, from a wizard's point of view.

BTW, Sly, you said that Squibs were only in pureblooded families. Where does it say that? I thought their parents simply had to be a witch and wizard, not that they had to be pureblooded...?

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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 16, 2003 9:48 pm (#141 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Oh, thats an interesting point about squibs parentage. Im not sure it does explicitly say that they have to be purebloods. Wish I had my books handy... DOH! Im at work!

If only I could apparate home to get them!

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schoff - Oct 16, 2003 10:22 pm (#142 of 1448)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Ron: "A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs are quite unusual." (CS ch9 US145)

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S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:07 am (#143 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Thanks for the quote schoff. Yes, they're born to a witch and wizard, but it doesn't say a pureblooded family....

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LilyP - Oct 18, 2003 10:39 am (#144 of 1448)

As for the distinction between squib and muggle. I think JKR just chose not to bring up another new concept in Year 1, so she held if off to Year 2 - therefore she said all muggle vs. squib.

As for the statement made about Harry being the same as Voldemort because he is half blood, I think we need to be careful in the distinction between half blood and non-pureblood. While as far as we know Neville is pureplood, I don't think Harry can be considered half-blood. Lily was a muggle born witch, but Harry was born from a witch and a wizard, therefore his "blood" came from two magical people or two sets the magic gene. Voldemort's father on the other hand was not a wizard, thus he is truly half blood or only one magic gene. Now, if we are saying Harry does not come from a pure bloodline, that is valid. That is a distinction between Harry and Neville. But on a continuum form of blood lines, it seems like Harry would be farther up the scale than Voldemort and Neville would be farther up than Harry. My concept of this continuum looks something like this:

muggle-mugggle parents (Hermione)-- muggle-witch/wizard(Voldemort)-- muggle born witch-muggle born wizard(do we know any?)--muggle born witch/wizard-witch/wizard(Harry) -- witch-wizard(Neville)

As for pure-blood families, how far back do you go to call it pure-blood? When you think of bloodlines (which really means genes), Harry is pureblood for the magic gene, because both his parents are magical. But if you ignore the magic gene (which I believe is a mistake) I guess that does make Harry a half-blood as some where saying. Although, I believe the magical-ness of the parentage needs to be taken into consideration when determining how pure the bloodline.

OK, I could go on about the genetics, but I won't. I know we've talked about genetics before on a thread, I don't have time to search for it now. I'll try to get the link for it and post again later.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2003 12:40 pm (#145 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Speaking as a student of genetics, I'll have to say no, there are no genetic basis for the magic in JK's world. I'm sorry, but there isn't. I've looked, and there is nothing in genetics that can really explain it....

As for Harry being a half-blood, even though his parents were a witch and a wizard, JK has said in interviews that he is considered a half-blood in the Wizarding World (you'll notice that Hagrid refers to him as something other than a pureblood, such as in GoF when he says something about Harry winning the tournament and showing them that you don't have to be a pureblood to win). I'm betting, though, that, if you can track your family back a certain number of wizarding generations, you could be considered a pureblood....

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Mikkel - Oct 19, 2003 2:41 am (#146 of 1448)


He still wasn't too steady at the start of OotP, but once he'd heard >that the DE's were out of Azkaban and on the loose, he seemed to >find some inner strength and his skills grew by leaps and bounds. I >don't know if it was fear for himself, or fear for those around him, >but something made him dig in and learn, going far past his own >concept of what he could do.


Or he could be vindictive... he seems rather aggressive in the battle of DoM. I don't think it would be quite in line with Nevilles character to be vindictive but it's a possibility and if he is then wouldn't that mean he may be turning in a bad direction?

PS: I hope this haven't allready been said I haven't had the time to look over all the posts in this thread.

PPS: Im new to this forum... I haven't had much to say before because you guys are so great and always ahead of me - when I look over the old posts anything that I might have to say has allready been said - but im hoping that I can contribute to some of the future discussion threads in this forum.

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Mikkel - Oct 19, 2003 3:09 am (#147 of 1448)


As for Harry being a half-blood, even though his parents were a witch and a wizard, JK has said in interviews that he is considered a half-blood in the Wizarding World (you'll notice that Hagrid refers to him as something other than a pureblood, such as in GoF when he says something about Harry winning the tournament and showing them that you don't have to be a pureblood to win). I'm betting, though, that, if you can track your family back a certain number of wizarding generations, you could be considered a pureblood....

Inded it seems to me when reading the HP books that the concept of pure-blood families derives from social reasons as well as(and probably more than) reasons of magical ancestry. We know from the book that there are fairly few pureblood families which can trace their magical heritage way back. So this distinct group of people has ancestors who has been involved in the wizarding world far before the others. So briefly put: This group of people has history together. These families has interacted way before the others got involved in magic.

It is this fact that binds the old wizarding families together; The concept of pureblood families is at least as much a form of Nationalism as it is Racism. So while Harry is by bloodline technically a pureblooded wizard he still isn't a member of the exclusive club of families who has interacted since far back in time and that would probably be why most wizards would still look at him as an outsider: just another half-blood basically.

Come to think of it though Draco Malfoy do in the first book warn Harry against ascosiating with Ron and Hermione because interacting with muggle-borns and poor wizarding families will affect his status. When the two first meet on the Hoggwarts express it's pretty obvious even that Draco is trying to make friends with Harry. So it would seem that even though Harry's mother was muggle-born then Draco still regards Harry as a wizard of some status.

But i guess this is off topic in relations to Neville...

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Denise S. - Oct 19, 2003 7:50 am (#148 of 1448)

We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mikkel, welcome to the forum! Don't worry about whether you'll be able to contribute or not; we discuss so many things here that there's bound to be something you can jump in on. Be sure to visit the Tell About Yourself thread and introduce yourself.

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Bernadette Devlin - Oct 19, 2003 2:14 pm (#149 of 1448)

The battle at the end of OoP only served to build his confidence even more. So I expect bigger things from Neville. I also think he will help to cure his parents through herbology & himself.

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Susurro Notities - Oct 19, 2003 3:46 pm (#150 of 1448)

Mikkel, welcome to the forum.

"This group of people has history together. These families has interacted way before the others got involved in magic." I agree with you that there is a social element to the pureblood concept that is connected to a long history of interaction. I don't think it is a lack of history that causes the purebloods to reject the halfbloods. I would think that the purebloods have a long social history with the pureblood side of the family of the halfbloods as well.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:09 am

Mikkel - Oct 20, 2003 10:46 am (#151 of 1448)
I don't think it is a lack of history that causes the purebloods to reject the halfbloods. I would think that the purebloods have a long social history with the pureblood side of the family of the halfbloods as well.

Obviously the purebloods would have had a long history with the pureblood side of the family but they still might take offense that new people are introduced into their circle, in the same way as a group of old friends might find it awkward if one groupmember takes along a new acquaintant to their social gatherings. I hope you see what I mean?

If that's the case it is weird though that they haven't come to terms new people entering their circle by now... after all we know that wizards/witches can be suddenly born out of muggle families(like Hermione) and so since the dawn of time it must have been regular that new people entered the wizard circle. It's not such a new thing.

So I'll have to agree with you that history isn't quite the issue. I still believe there is a social reason behind the whole pureblood interest though. The muggle-born magicians can be just as good as the purebloods(Hermione proves that) so it's not a matter of the muggle-borns and half-bloods having lesser magical skills. It's not purely about having magical ancestry either because Harry isn't quite accepted either even though both his parents possessed magical skills.

So somewhere there must be a dividing line between purebloods and the rest which has to do with identification(i.e. something social).

It's not for us to know though. It would be interesting to see that "history of the DE" that I know Rowling has written for her own purposes sometime; it must explain how the hate of the DE has come into existance.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 12:24 pm (#152 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Mikkel: Obviously the purebloods would have had a long history with the pureblood side of the family but they still might take offense that new people are introduced into their circle...

You know, this reminds me of the way old wealthy families during the Gilded Age in America viewed what they called "new money," families who had only recently developed a fortune. It was a rule that your family couldn't have worked for three generations (that is, your family had to be able to rely soley on the profits generated by your great-grandparents) to be considered part of the "old crowd." It was purely a social thing, obviously. If you constantly introduce new people into your circle, you are no longer the elite, you're the majority....

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Peregrine - Oct 20, 2003 2:04 pm (#153 of 1448)

It seems like in the 40s and 50s things like country clubs would only accept your membership if you could prove you were a blue-blood (i.e. an aristocrat) for four or five generations. Maybe people who consider themselves “purebloods” only have to go back a few generations to prove it (unless they’re crazed like the Blacks). So families like Neville’s (who probably aren’t crazed) would have some Muggle ancestors further down the line, but since they’re so far back, they don’t count or they’re overlooked.

(It seems like a better term that “half-blood” would be “mixed-blood”. The word “half” makes it too specific in cases like Harry.)

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S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 2:47 pm (#154 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I agree Peregrine. I wonder if Harry's children or grandchildren would be considered "pureblooded," assuming, of course, that he marries someone who is also considered pureblooded or half-blooded enough for pureblood status to apply to their kids as well....

What does everyone think Neville's wand will be made out of? Will it be really good for some specific subject the way Lily's was good for charms?

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mischa fan - Oct 20, 2003 3:31 pm (#155 of 1448)

Easy being green, it is not
What kind of wand is good for herbology?

I think it might be Dragon heart string, it seems like it is a powerful core and I think Neville will turn out to be a powerful wizard.

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Hem Hem - Oct 21, 2003 5:26 pm (#156 of 1448)

I think there's at least some chance that Neville's wand will have a Fawkes feather core...after all, Dumbledore said that Fawkes had only given two feathers over a year ago. He could have given another by now.

of course, this information may never be significant enough for JKR to tell us.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 6:12 pm (#157 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Hem: Dumbledore said that Fawkes had only given two feathers over a year ago.

Don't forget that he had also "only given two feathers" back in PS, which means that he hadn't donated any more over at least a four or five year period. Hm, I wonder, do you think the feathers came from Fawkes between burning days? I've always understood that when a pheonix burns, it comes back as a different pheonix, so maybe there have been several Fawkes over the years and he just names them all Fawkes even though they're technically starting from scratch again...?

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Susurro Notities - Oct 21, 2003 6:19 pm (#158 of 1448)

"Don't forget that he had also "only given two feathers" back in PS, which means that he hadn't donated any more over at least a four or five year period."
I had always assumed the line in PS to mean that Fawkes had given only two feathers ever. Thus the giving of two more feathers was particularly interesting.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 7:46 pm (#159 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Yeah, I had that feeling too, Susurro. I don't think we'll be seeing another Fawkes feather core wand....

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LilyP - Oct 21, 2003 9:53 pm (#160 of 1448)

Ditto. I was under the impression it was an "ever" comment. But you're right, he could have given more since and we just aren't privy. S.E.- that is an interesting idea, the phoenix coming back as a new bird. So, let's suppose Fawkes did give another couple of feathers, would those two be related to the first two, or a separate pair of "brother" wands? and then if Neville got one, who would get the other?? hmmmmm. So many questions, so few answers.

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Catherine - Oct 22, 2003 9:11 am (#161 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
As to the likelihood of Neville getting a phoenix-core wand, well, Fawkes WAS dropping a lot of feathers as warnings in OotP. We never find out what happens to them. It's not like we see them going into the trash, or straight to Mr. Ollivander's wand shop. I thought maybe Rowling showed Fawkes dropping feathers so that Harry could repair his wand, or get a new one (in case the Ministry continues its vendetta against him and snaps it in two!). It's possible that Neville or someone else from Hogwarts could get a wand with a feather from Fawkes. There are several feathers circulating now!

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A-is-for-Amy - Oct 22, 2003 12:44 pm (#162 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
As far as I remember, Fawkes only "dropped" one tail feather in OoP - that was in Grimmauld Place when Arthur was injured.

Just curious, but why is everyone spectulating that Neville even needs a wand with Fawkes's tail feather?

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 22, 2003 12:54 pm (#163 of 1448)

It's just because Neville needs a new wand, and only a few months sooner Fawkes dropped a tail feather. Of course it can very well be coincidence, I think it is, but you can never be sure with JKR. And of course Neville is involved in the prophecy, even if it is as the unchosen-one.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2003 1:13 pm (#164 of 1448)

Let it snow!
As far as I remember, Fawkes only "dropped" one tail feather in OoP - that was in Grimmauld Place when Arthur was injured.

Actually, he dropped more than one. One was dropped in Dumbledore's office to warn them that Umbridge was coming. I thought there was more though. Hmm....

Anyway, I don't think Ollivander will be making anymore Fawkes feather wands, considering the fate of the first two, I don't think he'd want to chance it....

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timrew - Oct 22, 2003 1:23 pm (#165 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Stone me! Now as well as everyone being an animagus and having a time-turner, they're all going to have wands with phoenix tail feather cores.

I can see the big sign over Ollivander's (and the Ad in the Quibbler); "Now you too can have a wand with a phoenix tail feather core, just like Harry Potter and Lord Thingy! Buy one for only 20 Galleons. Buy two and get the second for Half Price!"

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Sly Girl - Oct 22, 2003 2:45 pm (#166 of 1448)

Harry was destined for his wand because of Voldemort. I see no reason why Neville should be destined for a wand containing a tail feather as well. I think Tim has a point here, not everyone is going to be an animagus, not everyone is going to have a phoenix wand core.... JKR is far too fine a writer to follow down similar paths. (I think she has something entirely fresh and new in store for our Mr. Longbottom.)

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A-is-for-Amy - Oct 22, 2003 3:03 pm (#167 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
Sorry S.E. Jones, but I'm pretty sure Fawkes only dropped the one TAIL feather, and in other cases it just says feathers. Ollivander only uses the tail feathers of Phoenixes. I hope I'm not wrong here, cause I hate eating crow!

I totally agree Sly Girl, Neville will get a wand that suits him, and I doubt it will have anything to do with Fawkes.

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Susurro Notities - Oct 22, 2003 4:33 pm (#168 of 1448)

I had another question regarding Fawkes feathers but decided to post it in the Fawkes thread - if anyone is interested.

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Blast - Oct 23, 2003 7:06 pm (#169 of 1448)

I think I'm back!
I wonder now Neville is going to get his own wand will it give him the confidence to become a OWL level student? He has been usings his fathers wand but maybe it was not very compatable for him.

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Hem Hem - Oct 23, 2003 9:28 pm (#170 of 1448)

We all certainly hope so, but Ron got a new wand in PoA, and I can't really say it had such a noticeable effect on his magical ability.

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Peregrine - Oct 24, 2003 7:47 am (#171 of 1448)

Except with Ron, his magical abilities aren’t really mentioned much—not as much as Neville’s anyway. So maybe he did improve but since it doesn’t matter to the story, it’s glossed over.

There has to be a reason Olivander says that other wands won’t work as well if used by non-owners. We know what the significance of “the wand chooses the wizard” is (the whole Voldemort/Fawkes/Harry connection), but there hasn’t been a correlation to the other part of Olivander’s speech (has there?). The second Neville mentioned he’s been using his father’s wand, this is the theory that popped into my head.

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Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 24, 2003 11:19 am (#172 of 1448)

People had been speculating about the core of nevilles new wand. I think in GOF that Mr Olivander talks about almost being gored by the unicorn hair that formed the core of Cedrics wand. I am sure that shed hair would not be used. Thus I think that the hair/feather/heartstring has to be harvested from a live animal. I had read it that Fawkes gave two feathers only-one to balance the other. I think that beyond anything else a new wand will increase his confidence further but as to the core I have no clue.

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Jim the Potty - Oct 24, 2003 12:05 pm (#173 of 1448)

President of the Potties, forum member since the beginning, never online
Edited by Oct 24, 2003 1:07 pm
Harvesting heartstrings from a live dragon...that sounds like a dangerous occupation.

Maybe Harry could have a go at it for work experience: "Harry Potter and the Heartstring Harvest"

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S.E. Jones - Oct 25, 2003 10:28 am (#174 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Peregrine: There has to be a reason Olivander says that other wands won’t work as well if used by non-owners. We know what the significance of “the wand chooses the wizard” is (the whole Voldemort/Fawkes/Harry connection), but there hasn’t been a correlation to the other part of Olivander’s speech (has there?).

Take a look at the Wands thread. I pointed out some things referring to those two phrases....

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Peregrine - Oct 27, 2003 10:43 am (#175 of 1448)

Okay, thanks! That's a thread I haven't gotten to yet.

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Madam Poppy - Oct 27, 2003 9:50 pm (#176 of 1448)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Oct 27, 2003 9:53 pm
Haggis, I checked and Mr. Ollivander said, "Yes, I remember it well. Containing a single hair from the tail of a particularly fine male unicorn...must have been seventeen hands; nearly gored me with his horn after I plucked his tail...."
I agree with Jim regarding the heartstring of a dragon. You'd think that these very rare animals would be on an endangered species list to prevent any dragon killing. I wouldn't want to hunt dragons!
We know though that in addition to a wand core, Dumbledore "discovered the twelve uses of dragon's blood". And the Weasley twins had "jackets in some lurid green, scaly material" that turned out to be the "finest dragon skin". So someone is out there killing dragons for profit. Where's Hermione when you need her? Forget the House Elves, protect the endangered dragons!

Regarding Neville, I hope we do find out what Neville's new wand is made of and especially what is is good for.

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skh - Oct 29, 2003 9:28 am (#177 of 1448)

I think MamaDeb's points on Oct. 10th (post #117) are excellent, about Neville being a powerful but unfocussed wizard. I think he's growing confidence and his new wand will be be all important in the next books - I think we were told about using some one else's wand was definitely for a reason, and that reason was patently not to do with Ron as we have had no indication of his magical skills having improved with his own wand or not. Therefore I think Ron was added to show how BAD you can be with some one else's wand and as a red herring, to lull us poor readers over Neville, and that the real significance of the story is that Neville will be a much stronger wizarding force in the near future.

Perhaps his wand core will be a Fawkes feather, in order to further muddy the water over who the prophesy concerns?!!

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timrew - Nov 7, 2003 8:13 pm (#178 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Muddy Waters? The Blues singer? Is he going to get a phoenix feather wand, too?

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Maollelujah - Nov 7, 2003 10:15 pm (#179 of 1448)

Maybe Harry and Dumbledore will team up and start a line of Fawkes Feather Wands.

"You want to be powerful?"

"Think you need the extra power that only a Phoenix feather can give you?"

"Do you want to be Famous?"

"Well now you can. Send 10 Galleons and 2 Knuts to Albus and Harry's Wonder Wand Emporium, 67 Diagon Alley, and you too can have a wand Identical to the one's used by Lord Voldermort and Harry Potter, 11 inches long and made with the finest Yew Wood in Britian."

"Don't Believe me, rather just listen to the experts."

Harry Potter "Nothing makes me feel safer than feeling that Yew Wood and knowing I have the power of the Phoenix feather core. I mean without it I never would have defeated Voldermort."

Lord Voldermort "The Quibbler would never had selected me Most Evil Wizard of the 20th Century if it wasn't for my Fawkes Feather Core Wand. I would have been lost without it."

"Our operators are waiting for your owl."

If ordering from Great Britian, please to add the VAT tax.

*Not all wands are made with Yew Wood, nor do all have actual Phoenix feathers in them.

** No characters were hurt in the making of this post.

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Lenka - Nov 8, 2003 12:36 am (#180 of 1448)

ahhhh essays
"Nothing makes me feel safer than feeling that Yew Wood and knowing I have the power of the Phoenix feather core. I mean without it I never would have defeated Voldermort."

Harry's wand if holly, btw. 11 inches, I think.

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Sinister Kittens - Nov 8, 2003 6:10 pm (#181 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
timrew & Maollelujah lol! (Especially muddy waters....)

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Wendelin the Weird - Nov 11, 2003 10:44 pm (#182 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Madam Poppy wrote:

"You'd think that these very rare animals would be on an endangered species list to prevent any dragon killing. I wouldn't want to hunt dragons! We know though that in addition to a wand core, Dumbledore "discovered the twelve uses of dragon's blood". And the Weasley twins had "jackets in some lurid green, scaly material" that turned out to be the "finest dragon skin". So someone is out there killing dragons for profit. Where's Hermione when you need her? Forget the House Elves, protect the endangered dragons!"

But perhaps the ones used are ones from the Dragon Reserve in Romania that Charlie works for? I mean, Im sure with 'who knows how many' dragons living in proximity they get into fights and kill each other occasionally. Also possibly dieing of old age. Lets hope that there are laws in place to protect those dangerous yet loveable critters Hagrid adores!! Im also guessing that its not a huge problem with wizards poaching them, but rather raising them for the purpose of harvesting heartstring, blood, etc... Hence the banning of dragon eggs as tradeable goods, right? I highly doubt most wizards would be able to kill an adult dragon on their own - at least without a huge group of others trained to do so. Just a hopeful thought to ease our minds on the matter. hee heee

As for Neville, I wonder if we will see him develop any love interests over the course of the books. We know he took Ginny to the Yule Ball in Book 4, but have we seen anything else develop? Perhaps it will be a Hufflepuff (his next most likely house placement, I think). Susan Bones, maybe? I dont think this is shipping - at least I hope not. Just a curious mention if anyone has seen anything mentioned that I missed. They are after all both in DA, have family killed by DEs and she also has an aunt heading the Dept. that oversees aurors, right? And his father was an auror. Could be interesting to take a look at. Besides, it seems like the names mentioned in several books wind up to be important characters the further we read in the series. She was even included in the Sorting Ceremony in the PS/SS movie, was she not!? Her name was in the book for the sorting also, and she has been mentioned on many occasions and the girl who plays her appears in many scenes in both movies one and two (the red-haired girl who sits with Hermione in DADA). Could be important...

As for what type of wand he will have - I would guess unicorn, as well. It would be very interesting if it was another Fawkes feather that was dropped during book 5, but somehow I doubt it. I foresee another Unicorn core - "the innocent are the first to die". He seems like the unicorn core type (like Ron & Cedric) and I wouldnt be surprised to have JKR tease us that he will die by giving him one of those much like she is doing with Ron right now. What Hermione's wand made of I wonder?
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skh - Nov 12, 2003 5:48 am (#183 of 1448)

Timrew - v funny, I do think Fawkes is a very bluesy kinda bird!!

Seriously though, it will be interesting to find out what it will be - I like the unicorn core idea, Wendelin.

Anyway, am not so sure that the core is the really important bit, more the fac that he will have a new wand and therefore be way more powerful / focused.

I also like the idea of Neville and SUsan Bones. How about Luna? I think that would be too mental!!

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Lenka - Nov 12, 2003 6:50 am (#184 of 1448)

ahhhh essays
What do you mean by mental? I don't thing Luna is stupid, or she would never have come alive from the DoM. As far as I can remember, she's only the fourth to go (out of six), which is a pretty good score (okay, bad word choice), concidering that she's a year younger than Hermione and Ron.

Back on topic - I agree, Neville and Susan have a lot in common (though, minor corection, Neville's parents were not killed and I think Madam Bones is the head of the Underage Sorcery office or something... probably a boss of that Mafalda Hopkirk person we hear from all the time.)

Anyone have the book on them to see what exactly Madam Bones does?

Lenka

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Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 10:45 am (#185 of 1448)

From the Lexicon:

Bones, Amelia Susan Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, Madam Bones presided over Harry's disciplinary hearing on Aug 12, 1995; she later told her niece Susan some of the details.

A broad, square-jawed witch with very short gray hair and thick eyebrows, Madam Bones wears a monocle. According to Tonks, Amelia is fair and honest.

I did always think that Neville still sort of had a crush on Ginny. Or else he feels protective of her, at the very least. I'm not sure what role Susan Bones will play. I don't think it has to be romantic in nature.

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phydeux - Nov 12, 2003 10:34 am (#186 of 1448)

Alas poor Neville...
Alas poor Neville...

Ahhh... my first post here on the forum. I wanted to start it with the announcement that I am part of the minority out there that believes Neville will be the true hero in this series, and rid the world of Voldemort.

First let's look at the similarities between Harry and Neville. Both lost their parents to Voldemort.

Both were forced to live with guardians who show little regard for them. Both born at the end of July.

Both had parents in the Order of the Phoenix. The sorting hat took a long time to sort either of them.

Neville was sorted against all outward appearances of his having the qualities of a Gryffindor, while the hat feels that Slytherin would be a great place for Harry.

Both have shown their willingness for self sacrifice for the sake of another.

And then there is the prophecy.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches… born to those who have thrice defied him," As stated in the book, this could apply to either Harry or Neville.

"born as the seventh month dies" Again, applies to both. …

"and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," This is where we have to look at the use of language. From the first book we learn that a mark doesn't have to be physical. Dumbledore expresses this to Harry during his wrap up in the hospital wing in the first book. He says the mark can very much be emotional, and show no outward signs.

"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" In that same speech by Dumbledore in the first book, he says that if there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. We see the love Neville's mother retains for him, even if she knows nothing else in St. Mungo's. She may not know who she is, but her love for Neville remains. …

"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" Neville is beginning to show prowess, and may very well prove himself to be a powerful wizard indeed. None of the professors give Neville any encouragement, except maybe Prof. Sprout. Still, when Harry reinforces Neville with his support, we see vast improvements. This could also be part of how Voldemort marks Neville. In his attempt to kill Harry as a child, Voldemort created a dangerous enemy. If he had never done this, Harry may have never become the inspiration, and teacher that he is now to Neville, making Harry the catalyst for his destruction.

… "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies …" And of course this relates to Harry and Neville both.

We must also remember that when trying to steal the prophecy it was through trial and error that the death eaters realized only the one the prophecy was about could pick it up, so the assumption that just anyone could touch it after it had been removed from the shelf is just that, and assumption. In fact it may be that nobody but the person the prophecy was about could EVER touch it. The only other person we see touch the orb is of course Neville, so we may never know how this system works. Dumbledore, as we have seen, has been known to be wrong in the past. Well, there is my take, what do YOU think?

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Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 10:58 am (#187 of 1448)

Good thoughts, but I have to quibble with this point:

Both were forced to live with guardians who show little regard for them.

I've never gotten the sense that Neville's family didn't care for him. He has great tales of his Uncle Algie and even though his grandmother is formidable and Neville has a fear of disappointing her, I think Neville's Gran really cares for him. You cannot compare that to the Dursley's in my estimation.

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Neville Longbottom - Nov 12, 2003 11:07 am (#188 of 1448)

I, too, find the similarities between Harry and Neville interesting. Neville seems to be the anti Harry in many cases. About their upbringing: I think it's interesting, that the Longbottoms tried everything, that Neville can show magic, while the Dursley tried everything, that Harry stops showing magic. Again Neville's life mirrors Harry.

About the prophecy: Currently I think Harry is the Prophecy Boy. However, I wonder if the scene, where Harry throws the prophecy to Neville might be foreshadowing. Maybe Harry steps back because he realizes that neville is the boy from the prophecy, or something like this.

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phydeux - Nov 12, 2003 11:08 am (#189 of 1448)

I think we saw a little more of his Gran in the fifth book. She seems to give the impression that her son was a great wizard, and Neville will never live up to his father's legacy in her eyes. She also seems to brush off Neville's mother's attempt to show affection for Neville. She looks at her as an incompetent child in a sense, telling Neville to throw away the wrapper his mother had given him.

While I don't think his Gran is intentionally malevolent, I seriously don't think that she has ever made an effort to make Neville feel as if he were worthy of his father's name. The connection she has to the Dursleys is that she doesn't realize what she has in Neville, just as the Dursleys cannot see Harry. There is simply a lack of appreciation, and a blindness.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 1:00 pm (#190 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Currently I think Harry is the Prophecy Boy. However, I wonder if the scene, where Harry throws the prophecy to Neville might be foreshadowing. Maybe Harry steps back because he realizes that neville is the boy from the prophecy, or something like this.

Well, if that's the case, considering that Neville dropped the prophecy, I don't think things will turn out to well for the Wizarding world. Or, if this is true, maybe Neville will fail and Harry'll have to step in anyway....

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Neville Longbottom - Nov 12, 2003 1:08 pm (#191 of 1448)

But Neville didn't drop the prophecy. He caught it and put it in his pocket. The prophecy only broke when Harry tried to heave Neville up the stairs in the Death room, because Neville clothes tore apart, and then Neville, who was under the Trantallegra curse, kicked it. That means both boys broke the prophecy together.

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Susurro Notities - Nov 12, 2003 1:20 pm (#192 of 1448)

Harry took the prophecy from the shelf. Could he have done this if he was not the subject of the prophecy?

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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 12, 2003 3:07 pm (#193 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
Maybe he could if there was a possiblity that BOTH boys are still eligible to be "the one." If something should happen to Harry, then Neville logically could become the "one" by default; meaning that he would somehow be marked as the dark lord's equal.... it's a long shot.

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Neville Longbottom - Nov 12, 2003 8:50 pm (#194 of 1448)

Harry took the prophecy from the shelf. Could he have done this if he was not the subject of the prophecy?

Yes, because Harry's name was on the prophecy. That's why he could take it from the shelf.

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phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 7:25 am (#195 of 1448)

The prophecy itself is not what makes those who try to touch it go funny, it is the spell cast on it by those who made the record. Remember, the prophecy had Harry's name on it, but with a question mark after, meaning they were not entirely sure when they made that record. So it makes perfect sense that Neville could touch it.

Of course all of this is irrelevant because it was known that Neville was a possibility, so those who made the record would take that into consideration. It doesn't prove anything except that whoever made that record was not entirely sure that it was defiantly Harry it spoke about.

What it DOES show is that we may have been given a clue. Rowling seems to go through a great deal of trouble to insure only Harry and Neville touch the prophecy. At first this appears to be ok, because we assumed after Harry removed it from the shelf, just anyone could touch it, until you realize that it COULD be Neville.

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phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 7:27 am (#196 of 1448)

"Well, if that's the case, considering that Neville dropped the prophecy, I don't think things will turn out to well for the Wizarding world."

Remember, Rowling LOVES an underdog. She loves to show kids that ANY of them can achieve great things. We have seen Neville, when he believes in himself, make VAST improvements in just a matter of months. We see that Neville has the potential for greatness, if only someone would make him believe it himself.

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phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 8:04 am (#197 of 1448)

Another thing about Neville I forgot to mention. Why were his parent's tortured? What was it Voldemort needed from them, possibly the location of their son?

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Essidji - Nov 13, 2003 8:07 am (#198 of 1448)

I DO agree with you, I keep saying Neville is actually a very good wizard, just like his parents were. He just needs to set himself free from all the pressure his grandmother puts on him... and a new wand that fits him!

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fidelio - Nov 13, 2003 8:10 am (#199 of 1448)

Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured because the DEs who did it thought they knew where Voldemort's body was hidden, accoding to the scene in the Pensieve and Harry's conversation with Dumbledore in GoF.

I got the impression from old Mrs. Longbottom in OotP that they were trying to protect Neville, but that may just be her take on it--we don't know if she was at the trial or not, or if the full story was ever disclosed to her. Then again, she may have had some inkling of the prophecy--Dumbledore says he and Harry are the only ones who know the full prophecy, but that doesn't mean bits and pieces haven't leaked out.

Also, the fact that the Longbottoms were the ones tortured and the possibility that the prophecy had referred to Neville may not be anything more than a coincidence. Yes, we don't trust JKR's coincidences, because often enough they are anything but coincidences. But sometimes, even with her, a coincidence could be simply a coincidence.

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Peregrine - Nov 13, 2003 8:14 am (#200 of 1448)

Phydeux, It wasn’t Voldemort who was responsible for the torturing of the Longbottoms--it was Bella, Crouch Jr. and company. They were trying to find out the whereabouts of Voldemort after he vanished.

Edited because fidelio beat me to it.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:10 am

phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 8:16 am (#201 of 1448)
"Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured because the DEs who did it thought they knew where Voldemort's body was hidden, accoding to the scene in the Pensieve and Harry's conversation with Dumbledore in GoF." I must have missed that part, I will have to go back and re-read.

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phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 8:18 am (#202 of 1448)

No Peregrine, it wasn't Voldemort HIMSELF who did it, but it was BECAUSE of him. Anything the DE's did, he was responsible for in one fashion or another.

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Neville Longbottom - Nov 13, 2003 10:23 am (#203 of 1448)

I think JKR chose Neville as the second character (out of the important student) with no parents, because she wanted to show that the "unchosen one" also hasn't got a happy life with caring parents.

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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 18, 2003 3:39 pm (#204 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
In light of the prophecy, do you think it significant that when the Knight Bus picked up Harry, and they asked his name, the first name that popped into his head was Neville's?

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timrew - Nov 18, 2003 3:41 pm (#205 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Yes, I thought if he was breaking all the rules, the first name that should have popped into his head was Draco Malfoy!

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Hem Hem - Nov 18, 2003 6:49 pm (#206 of 1448)

Harry may have thought that most strangers in the wizarding world have heard of the Malfoys.

Then again, they probably would have heard of the Longbottoms as well. Ernie Prng is an old enough guy that he may as well know Neville's Gran. I wonder if he does, or if that's plain irrelevant.

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Peregrine - Nov 19, 2003 10:06 am (#207 of 1448)

Although at that point Harry didn’t know much about Neville’s family—just that they were purebloods. Had he known the Longbottoms were talented Aurors who were famously tortured, he may have used another name. That said, I do think it’s odd he used Neville’s name seeing as how he could have just given a completely made up name instead.

Edited to add: Maybe that's just one of JKR's ways of reminding us Neville exists (like putting him in the train car when there's no real reason for him to be there).

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Becky Palmer - Nov 21, 2003 10:50 pm (#208 of 1448)

I think that Neville was showing signs of great power even with his father's wand. Remember after the DE's broke out of Azkaban and some of them were in there for torturing his Mum and Dad? In DA meetings after this, Neville began showing initial signs of the great wizard I think that he is. He worked exceptionally hard at all the jinxes and counter curses Harry was showing the group, and when Harry demonstrated the Shield Charm, Hermione was the only one who mastered it quicker than Neville. To come second to Hermione Granger is no mean feat, considering that we all know how smart she is. I don't think that a wizard's power necessarily comes from the wand, I think the power comes from the mind and the heart and the wand is the CONDUIT and harnesses that power. Voldemort's evilness, after all, lies within his mind (I won't say heart since he doesn't seem to have one)and not within his wand - Harry's wand has the same core and Harry is not a wicked and evil Dark Lord. The same could be said for Neville and also for Harry, but of course, it would be in reverse since these two possess emotions and feelings that Voldemort does not. Neville's flowering into a great wizard and realising his potential does not, I feel, have much to do with his wand. True, the wand chooses the wizard and will not work as well when being brandished by someone who is not it's owner. I think Neville will improve even more greatly in ability alone in the next two books because of the strength of his mind and confidence in his ability. I would hate to be in Bellatrix's shoes if she and Neville have another confrontation!

I apologise for rambling and I hope everyone understands the points I am trying to make................................

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Susurro Notities - Nov 21, 2003 11:30 pm (#209 of 1448)

I sewed for years on a basic Sears machine. I learned to use complicated patterns and produced a good product. Then I got a beautiful top of line Husqvarna. Suddenly it was much easier to produce an even better product. I see the wand as a tool like a sewing machine. When a wizard has an appropriate wand I would think it would be easier to produce more difficult spells. I would expect that Neville will be better able to channel his talents with a wand that chooses him. Unless grandma gives him his mother's wand next!

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Peregrine - Nov 24, 2003 8:39 am (#210 of 1448)

That would just be Neville’s luck. Hopefully he’ll put his foot down and force Gran to shell out a few bucks for a brand new wand.

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Wendelin the Weird - Nov 24, 2003 10:52 pm (#211 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Um sorry to revert back to the Neville and Susan Bones idea, but yes, her aunt was the head of the Division of Magical Law Enforcement (the office where the Aurors are), and her parent were killed by DEs... so is she being raised by her aunt Amelia? That would certainly explain how she heard all about the hearing and seems to be improtant that she would join Harry's side to fight against Voldie. Seems as though perhaps her aunt could have ties with the Order even.

And Neville and Harry touching the prophesy is very interesting to think about. Very clever how neither of them is truly responsible for breaking it. And also I agree that its possible that the one may not yet truly be marked as Voldemort's equal - it seems to us obvious that it is Harry, but the true MARK could be an upcoming injury or death in the following books. WIll be interesting to see how she plays that out - I suspect it will be totally unexpected use of twisting the words in the prophesy away from what we are thinking wil happen. I expect the unexpected for that final battle!

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Hem Hem - Nov 24, 2003 11:14 pm (#212 of 1448)

I think JKR said in an interview that Susan's grandparents were killed, although OotP says that her aunt, uncle, and cousins were killed. Perhaps all of them were tracked down by Voldy...although I don't think we've heard about her parents, wether they are alive or dead at this point.

Okay, enough nitpicking for me for now.

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Neville Longbottom - Nov 26, 2003 6:05 am (#213 of 1448)

After the Death Eaters broke out from Azkaban, Susan Bones said that her uncle, aunt and cousins were the victims of one (or more) of these Death Eaters. that means the family had at least three silblings, Amelia, Edgar (the one who was killed) and Susan's father. Therefore her parents could still be alive.

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Fawkes8U - Nov 30, 2003 6:27 pm (#214 of 1448)

In OotP, Harry tries to hurt Bellatrix Lestrang with a curse right after she kills Sirius, and falters. Since Neville's parents were tortured by Bellatrix, Neville has a lot of anger towards her. Maybe both Harry and Neville together have enough anger between them to at least hurt her. Just a thought.

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Blast - Nov 30, 2003 7:12 pm (#215 of 1448)

I think I'm back!
In rereading the Prisoner Of Azkaban, I noticed that Snape really picks on Harry. We find out why later on. He also picks on Hermiome because she is an insufferable know it all. But why Neville? I don't think it is because of the Longbottems but it seems like he is trying to keep him from developing. It seems to me that Neville has all his life been kept from developing. His overprotecting grandmother making sure to almost humiliate him at almost every chance she can. Snape seems to be along the same line as her. The Sorting Hat saw something in Neville that put him in Gryffendor. Is there a plot to keep Neville from becoming a great Wizard? When a person is belittled all his life, he begins to believe it himself. Is this a way to protect him? If the prophesy pertained to Neville as well as Harry, is Dumbledore the only one to know the whole prophesy? Did the longbottems and the Potters know of the whole prophesy? If Neville is kept from developing his powers this would make him less of a target to the Death Eaters. Harry has the protection of privet drive. Neville does not have this protection.

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5ofclubs - Dec 3, 2003 8:02 pm (#216 of 1448)

I can't find a Trevor thread, so this is as close as I could get. In SS/PS, Hagrid mentions in Diagon Alley that "...toads went out of style years ago...". If so, why does Neville have Trevor instead of an owl, cat, rat, etc? We've already seen that his Gran seems to have a thing for making him keep his Dad's old stuff (the wand scene at the end of OotP). Is it possible Trevor was owned by none other than Frank Longbottom?

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Blast - Dec 3, 2003 8:33 pm (#217 of 1448)

I think I'm back!
No Neville's great uncle Algie got Trevor as a gift for Neville getting into Hogwarts.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 4, 2003 11:17 am (#218 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Huh, you know, I never noticed that it was his great-uncle Algie. He must be Gran's brother or something.... Thanks for posting that Blast end newt...

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A-is-for-Amy - Dec 4, 2003 2:52 pm (#219 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
Algie could be his first name, and so he might come from either side of the family.

I don't know if there is anything significant about Trevor (other than my belief that he might eat Rita Skeeter in her animagus form), but JKR does keep him in each book. I think that when JKR repears herself that much, it's because she wants us to remember it.

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Madame Librarian - Dec 4, 2003 3:29 pm (#220 of 1448)

Just noticed this: "Algie," when said aloud, sounds just like "algae" which is the botanical term for what I call pond scum. Seriously, it's the simplest of plant life forms, and is the very bottom of the food chain. Is this the same guy who gave Neville the Mimbulis mimbletonia? If so, here we have another little word-joke so typical of JKR. I don't think it has any deeper meaning unless giant squids eat algae.

Maybe Dumbledore would bite into a Botts Bean and say, "Alas, algae."

Ciao. barb

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5ofclubs - Dec 4, 2003 7:14 pm (#221 of 1448)

Another interesting thing I noticed while rereading PS/SS for like the fifteen-hundredth time: People have been mentioning that it sounds like Gran Longbottom was trying to squash the magic out of Neville, much like the Dursleys and Harry, in hopes that Neville would not be "the one" to fulfill the prophecy. Further supporting this theory: Neville mentions that, when he received the Hogwarts letter, "Gran cried, she was so happy." Perhaps Neville misinterpreted her tears?

My mistake about Trevor, I noticed the thing about his Great Uncle while I was reading today.

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phydeux - Dec 6, 2003 9:11 pm (#222 of 1448)

I don't think it is that she is trying to hold him back, I feel it is unintentional. I think his gran still hasn't come to terms with what has happened to her son. Now Neville cannot live up to her image of the man. He has large shoes to fill, and in her eyes nobody can fill them. Neville, on the whole, simply seems to be underappreciated, and underestimated. I feel this is what is holding him back. Nobody believes in him, so he doesn't believe in himself (until he joins the DA, that is, coincidence?)

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Susurro Notities - Dec 6, 2003 9:19 pm (#223 of 1448)

phydeux,
You have nicely summed up my thoughts on Neville and his Grandmother. I don't think she intentionally holds him back either nor do I think she is mean. Just "of an era".

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Sly Girl - Dec 7, 2003 1:59 pm (#224 of 1448)

However, I do think Great Uncle Algie bears watching- not only was he contstantly trying to hurt or maim Neville under the guise of seeing if he's 'magical' enough but he bought him Trevor (a pet that is constantly running away from him- to what reason?) and he bought him the mimble mimbletonia. These things might appear innocent, but somehow I don't think they are. It's something that's been troubling me...

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Sinister Kittens - Dec 8, 2003 3:47 pm (#225 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
I agree with you there. It just seems that there are for too many coincidences.

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5ofclubs - Dec 8, 2003 6:46 pm (#226 of 1448)

We've already seen MEM slip Neville something meant to further LV's plans (the herbology book in GoF). Maybe that instance was a clue to Great Uncle Algie?

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A-is-for-Amy - Dec 9, 2003 8:08 am (#227 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
While I agree that Uncle Algie may come up in future books, we aren't really told whether Neville was just given Trevor as a gift, or if Neville actually picked him out, and his uncle merely paid for him. I'm pretty sure the book just says, "He was so pleased, he bought me my toad" or something similar.

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Blast - Dec 9, 2003 8:19 pm (#228 of 1448)

I think I'm back!
Does great Uncle Algie chews gum? I wonder.

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skh - Dec 10, 2003 6:52 am (#229 of 1448)

Further to the Algie / algae thing - I agree that they are way similar sounding, too much so to be a coincidence, but perhaps it's not meant to be sinister but rather another indication that Nev ends up as an Herbology specialist, either teacher or Healer, linking him to plant life again? (My own pet theory being that Nev ends up responsible for healing either/both Frank and Alice.)

And Trevor - again, not necessarily sinister, just not a "trendy" pet choice. Maybe when ole Algie was a young'un, toads were the hippest thing since sliced bread!!!

Has there ever been anything significant uncovered about the choice of name, particularly Longbottom? As JKR seems to put such thought into names, I was curious.

Sarah

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Madame Librarian - Dec 10, 2003 10:11 am (#230 of 1448)

Longbottom is a kind of tobacco leaf. It's mentioned in LOTR as a location (valley?), but I'm not 100% sure. Use the search tool here, enter Longbottom and tobacco, you'll get the posts where that's discussed. (Hope that's right.)

Ciao. Barb

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timrew - Dec 10, 2003 2:59 pm (#231 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Barb, Longbottom Leaf tobacco is from LOTR. It is grown in the Southern part of the Shire, where the hobbits come from. The hobbits (Merry and Pippin) were surprised to find a barrel of Longbottom Leaf in the ruins of Isengard (the fortress of Saruman), many hundreds of miles away from its source.

To get back to Neville. I can't understand why anyone has a pet that isn't an owl. They can deliver post, fetch your copy of the Daily Prophet.

I can't imagine toads ever being 'hip'. For a start, if you sent one out for the Daily Prophet, it would probably take it a week to come back with one.

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Madame Librarian - Dec 10, 2003 4:27 pm (#232 of 1448)

tim, I wonder if they suddenly do become the hippest thing around given the fact that every member of the Hogwarts choir seems to have one now. Oh, wait, that's the film, not the books. Rats, a good, snappy answer, and it's useless (not to mention veering crazily off-topic). Hmmmphfff.

Ciao. Barb

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skh - Dec 11, 2003 2:37 am (#233 of 1448)

Thanks - I knew I'd read something about Longbottom as a name, but I couldn't remember what it was! Good ole Longbottom leaf - the epitome of all that was special about the Shire: quality, mildness, mellowness, but most of all contnetment.

Regarding toads - "hipness" is perhaps debateable, but I can envisage an adult thinking that a toad is something a little boy would love.

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Peregrine - Dec 11, 2003 7:26 am (#234 of 1448)

It must have been a popular pet at one time if they bothered putting it on the Hogwarts list.

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5ofclubs - Dec 11, 2003 11:24 am (#235 of 1448)

Longbottom = tobacco. Mundungus = tobacco. Uh oh...



timrew - Dec 11, 2003 11:35 am (#236 of 1448) [/b]
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL, 5ofclubs! I don't think the stuff Dung smokes is Longbottom Leaf.

It's more likely he chops up Dobby's old socks!

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Hem Hem - Dec 11, 2003 6:14 pm (#237 of 1448)

Hey, whatever Mundungus smokes smells like socks, it isn't really socks. There's a difference!

I have no clue what Longbottom Leaf smells like, but hey, it might stink....

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5ofclubs - Dec 11, 2003 6:42 pm (#238 of 1448)

Possibly Uncle Algie and Dung are good friends? They're both a bit dodgy, apparently.

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skh - Dec 12, 2003 2:52 am (#239 of 1448)

Mundungus is quite a smelly name!

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Matt Allair - Dec 12, 2003 1:41 pm (#240 of 1448)

'Mischief Managed.......Not! (Nox)'
Tim, I share in your puzzlement over Neville's frog, I've always assumed that the frog will play out as something important in the last two books. Why else would JKR have the boy own a frog if there wasn't a clue in there to it's importance.

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virgoddess1313 - Dec 12, 2003 2:01 pm (#241 of 1448)

Maybe it was just another way of showing how Neville tended to get the short end of the stick... hand-me-down wand, always told he's not as talented as his father and then to top it all off, an uncool pet.

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timrew - Dec 12, 2003 4:16 pm (#242 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Maybe if JKR liked The Narnia Chronicles, and The Lord Of The Rings, she also like The Wind In The Willows, starring one of the greatest characters in all of literature......Toad!

Perhaps JKR regards Neville's toad, Trevor, as a very cool pet indeed. Who knows, in book 7, Trevor's hour might be nigh!

And Hem Hem, Longbottom Leaf was a much prized tobacco amongst hobbits. I don't think it smelt like burning socks!

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Madame Librarian - Dec 12, 2003 4:39 pm (#243 of 1448)

Given the state of Hobbits' feet who knows what their socks might smell like!

Ciao. Barb

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Sly Girl - Dec 13, 2003 2:46 pm (#244 of 1448)

Another thing to think about or consider about why Neville was given a toad... in ancient mythology the idea was that a basilisk was born from a chicken's egg that had been hatched from under a toad. Wasn't there some bit about Trevor being found near Hagrid's chickens? Wasn't Trevor found in a 'bathroom' in the first book before they left for summer holiday?

I was reading Bullfinches Mythology (bit of light reading, don'tcha know) this afternoon doing some research and I came across the description of the Basilisk and the word TOAD just jumped out at me.

I'm sure it's nothing. But I think the Clues book mention this coincidence too.

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5ofclubs - Dec 13, 2003 6:29 pm (#245 of 1448)

That would indeed be puzzling, if Trevor were old enough to have hatched the basilisk Slytherin hid under the school something like 4(?) centuries ago. But who knows? Maybe Trevor will hatch a baby basilisk that Harry can control.

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Sly Girl - Dec 13, 2003 7:41 pm (#246 of 1448)

Actually I'm not sure if the Basilisk is as old as we think it is. I mean, yeah, we're told the Chamber 'held' a monster, but she never really goes into the history of that, does she? It could be the Chamber held the egg that needed to be hatched that would turn into the Basilisk. 'Course that doesn't explain what happened to the one at the school before, around Hagrid's time. Hmm.

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Hem Hem - Dec 13, 2003 10:30 pm (#247 of 1448)

trevor could be 50 years old without it being too unreasonable....maybe he hatched the basilisk right before Tom Riddle's opening of the chamber.

Then again, I find that unlikely. We learn that basilisks can live for a very long time, so I think that suggests that this basilisk had been around since the chamber was formed.

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Sly Girl - Dec 13, 2003 10:42 pm (#248 of 1448)

Yeah, they do live a long time. If they don't run into Harry Potter, that is.

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boop - Dec 21, 2003 8:35 am (#249 of 1448)

Lexicon Forum Mom
I have a question about a statement in SS pg 125, The Sorting Hat Chapter. The kids are talking about their families,Neville states"Well my gram brought me up, and she's a witch." said Neville,"but the family thought I was all muggle for ages."

Why did Neville's family think he was all Muggle? I thought his family was all wizards and witches. Does this mean there is some muggles blood in the Longbottom family? Any thoughts on this?

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SJ Rand - Dec 21, 2003 10:08 am (#250 of 1448)

Probably Ms. Rowling hadn't come up with the word "squib" yet, so he was "all muggle" meaning he had no magical ability. The Longbottoms are said to be a long pureblood line.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:11 am

S.E. Jones - Dec 30, 2003 8:35 pm (#251 of 1448)
Let it snow!
I always kind of thought there was a slight negative connotation to the word "Squib" and that most wizards didn't see much difference between squibs and muggles, so maybe saying "All Muggle" was a nicer way of saying "Squib".....

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Leesha - Jan 1, 2004 12:29 am (#252 of 1448)

I've followed this conversation on Neville with interest and I think we may have missed something.

JKR may have developed Neville's character as a counterpoint to Harry. Hence the similarities.

Throughout the series, Neville has had to struggle with things such as standing up for what he thought was right against his friends, Harry, Ron and Heroine, the bullying by Snape and Draco Malfoy, his grandmother's attitude to his father and assumption that Neville can't live up to him.

Harry, Ron and Hermoine have all had issues that they have had to deal with too, Ron has to come to terms with being poor, Hermoine fears failure and Harry has to live up to being the Boy Who Lived and all it entails. However, it is difficult for Harry, Ron and Hermoine to be a metaphor for the reader due to their role as central characters.

Neville, on the other hand, is well positioned to be that metaphor and teaches us that it is possible to overcome the obstacle life puts in your way, e.g. fear, other peoples' expectations, etc. The similarities between Harry and Neville may be there to show us that we may not all be heroes but that with effort and determination we can achieve a great deal.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.

Cheers, Leesha

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virgoddess1313 - Jan 1, 2004 8:40 am (#253 of 1448)

Oh, you put that just beautifully, Leesha. I completely agree.

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skh - Jan 6, 2004 6:25 am (#254 of 1448)

In relation to Boop's question, do we know for sure that Neville's mother was from a pureblood line? What if she was muggle born?

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SarcasticGinny - Jan 6, 2004 7:20 am (#255 of 1448)

It's possible; I've always felt that Neville seems awfully worried in COS for a secure pureblood. Does anyone have canon stating that both his parents were pureblood wizards/witches?

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fidelio - Jan 6, 2004 8:27 am (#256 of 1448)

Doesn't Dumbledore say something to this effect in OotP, when he tells Harry about the prophecy?

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Hem Hem - Jan 6, 2004 6:42 pm (#257 of 1448)

I can think of one instance other than the one fidelio mentioned for you:

"Neville Longbottom bought a large, evil-smelling green onion, a pointed purple crystal, and a rotting newt tail before the other Gryffindor boys pointed out he was in no danger; he was a pureblood, and therefore unlikely to be attacked." (CoS Ch.11 US p 183)

Okay, so we haven't searched up his geneology for nine generations, but we can probably take the Gryffindor boys' word for it.

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A-is-for-Amy - Jan 11, 2004 7:37 pm (#258 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
Going over CoS last night, I found another reference to Neville's blood. Of COurse, now I can't find where it is, but the phrase was something like, "Purity of blood is no guarantee of power. Neville was a pureblood and could harly stand a cauldron up tne right way."

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OkieAngel - Jan 11, 2004 11:58 pm (#259 of 1448)

Well as to bloodlines being no guarantee of power, I'd have to say that's a given, else all muggle-borns would be squibs. That said, I feel that Neville is well on his way to discovering quite a bit of powerful talent that was/is untapped. He just needed some help to find his confidence. Plus, now armed with a new wand (hopefully) and the realisation that he battled DE's and lived to tell the tale, I think we'll see a much-improved Neville Longbottom in the books to come.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jan 12, 2004 8:18 am (#260 of 1448)

burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Having not read this entire thread for months I dont recall ever seeing mmention of this, but its always struck me as odd.

The whole thing with the Rememberall. Malfoy took interest in it from the first moment he opened it... then later during flying lessons Nevilles broom goes haywire (much as Harry's did during the match remember?!) and Malfoy winds up taking the Remembrall from Neville. I mean, look at the main characters involved in that scene! Harry/Neville and Malfoy (son of a DE). Is there a possibility that Professor Quirrell/the weird head of LV was again responsible for that broom incident? In the film they had Wood in Quirrell's class as McGonagall went looking for him just after Harry caught the Remembrall, but according to PS/SS Wood was actually in Flitwicks class at the time.

I have a strange inkling that somehow Neville knows something that many people (especially LV and Malfoys) dont want him to remember, but his family does. And now that we know that Neville was the other possible Boy-who-could-vanquish-the-dark-lord, it seems even more important in the back of my mind for some reason.

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Devika - Jan 12, 2004 9:11 am (#261 of 1448)

Wendelin... it could be interesting if that's how it had happened. But somehow I have thought that the broom only went haywire because Neville was really nervous and he couldn't control the broom. But I guess I'll need to check it out again...after all you can't take anything for granted in the HP universe.

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A-is-for-Amy - Jan 12, 2004 10:07 am (#262 of 1448)

Mom of 2 boys
I understand what you are saying about the remembrall... that it might be turning red because Neville was made to forget something that his family wants him to recall... but if that was the case, why not just tell him? Why give him little devices to jog his memory? I know that a lot of people subscribe to the theory that the reason Neville seems so inept is because a memory charm was place on him for some reason as an infant - either because he witnessed his parent's torture, or because he holds a key clue about LV somewhere deep in his subconciousness.

I don't know if I believe that, but the remembrall would be a nice little clue to support that idea, wouldn't it?

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Madame Librarian - Jan 12, 2004 2:55 pm (#263 of 1448)

Amy, it's possible that what Neville "remembers" (or doesn't remember because of the charm) is something that he alone witnessed or heard as his parents were being tortured or just after. It might have been the LeStranges or a clean-up team of DEs that cursed him to forget what he'd witnessed (why they didn't just AK him, I don't know; maybe they were afraid that if he, too, was special like Harry, the AK would bounce back on them as Voldie's curse on Harry had).

The Longbottoms are out of the picture for the time being (either kept in a state of insanity or truly so) and his Gran and others may be trying to undo the memory charm so the crucial info can surface. They try all kinds of counter spells, gizmos and whatever, but it must have been a powerful spell, and is slow to reverse itself. So, it's not a matter of just telling him because they aren't the ones in the know at all.

Just had a thought--it's not the torturing of his parents by the LeStranges per se that was erased from Neville's memory since that was common knowledge and they were arrested. What if it was something to do with the alliance between them and Lucius that had to be eradicated? What if Lucius showed up just after the torture session, found that Neville had been left alive, and had been listening when Lucius and the LeStranges discussed what to do next. Lucius was taking no chances even though Neville was just a toddler? He cursed him and put on the memory charm so that Lucius could never be implicated in that little escapade. The LeStranges, of course, might someday wonder why Lucius didn't extend the spell to include them, but that's for another discussion.

Ciao. Barb

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fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 7:14 am (#264 of 1448)

OK, Barb, that's creepy. I had always wondered if perhaps Neville had a traumatic memory loss, not a magically induced one--although these are probably mroe common as a plot device than they are in real psychopathology. I suppose it also possible that some well-meaning soul decided that the toddler Neville was "better off" not remembering what he'd seen, and put a memory spell on him. Barty Crouch jr mentioned that the memory spell his father put on Bertha Jorkins was too strong and that she had a bad memory afterwards--for everything. Perhaps the effect of such a spell on a small child, whose mental abilities are still developing would be the same, whatever the motives of the person applying it.

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Madame Librarian - Jan 13, 2004 7:54 am (#265 of 1448)

Either way, fidelio, little Neville, perhaps, saw or heard something that's a key piece of the puzzle. The hope that he will someday remember this works whether it's a trauma-induced memory loss or a spell-induced one.

I'm half joking here but what if that bonk on his head (resulting in his broken nose) knocks the spell/curse/trauma out of him.

Ciao. Barb

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Peregrine - Jan 14, 2004 8:18 am (#266 of 1448)

If Neville does remember something, who would he confide in? I doubt it would be his grandmother because he’s awfully frightened of her. And we don’t really know how close he is with Seamus and Dean but he seems to be the odd man out (especially when he sided with Harry in OoP). It probably wouldn’t be Ron because they seem to have very little interaction. Maybe it would be Hermione because she’s always helping him, but even Harry doesn’t like confiding in her because she tends to flip out. He’s not close to Dumbledore, Hagrid or McGonagall in the same way Harry is so they’re out of the question. Professor Sprout would be a good option, but unless whatever happened revolves around Devil’s Snare or something, he may not feel she’s qualified to help. This leaves Harry. But it seems to me that Harry would feel closer to Neville than Neville would feel towards Harry because Harry knows more about their connected pasts than Neville does.

I think maybe, if Neville does remember something horrible from his childhood, he may bottle it up and start acting the way Harry did in OoP—feeling helpless and unable/unwilling to talk to anyone.

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scully jones - Jan 14, 2004 8:47 am (#267 of 1448)

yeah right
You forgot Ginny! wouldn't he confide in her???

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fidelio - Jan 14, 2004 10:24 am (#268 of 1448)

I think he might well talk to Ginny--especially since he seems to be sweet on her anyway. Remember, when HRH, Ginny, Luna, and he were all caught by Umbridge, Neville got caught because he tried to protect Ginny. Maybe it's just youthful chivalry, but then again...

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Madame Librarian - Jan 14, 2004 11:58 am (#269 of 1448)

Luna might be able to draw him out with a quiet throwaway comment that makes him see that she knows what it's like to an oddball, an outsider.

Ciao. Barb

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Devika - Jan 15, 2004 2:43 am (#270 of 1448)

I think it is most likely that he would confide in Harry. Even Neville, even though he isn't very close to Harry, would be aware that the only one who can understand and appreciate his traumatic past with the Dark Side can be someone who has gone through a lot himself, and that is Harry. I also think Neville thinks very highly of Harry and displayed great loyalty to him in the MoM. That encounter I think has served to bring them at least closer than they were. If Neville has to find a confidant, it should be Harry.

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icthestrals - Jan 15, 2004 5:32 am (#271 of 1448)

Join Potty HQ on this forum! Woohoo, from janitor to VP!
I am rereading GOF and ran across something Neville said that leads me to believe that Neville did witness his parents' torture and does remember something about it. I know this has been discussed many times before, sorry, but this line really struck me this time around.

I don't have the exact quote. In the chapter, House-Elf Liberation Front, everyone in the Gryffindor common room is discussing what the second task might be, then Harry opens the golden egg and the screeching and wailing starts. Neville has a horrible look on his face and says that maybe the champions have to face the Cruciatus Curse.

We, the readers, only know this curse at this point by the demonstration by Moody with the spider (which made no noise, but Harry notes that it probably would be screaming if it could have).

Neville, it would seem, has had prior experience with this curse. This would also explain his reaction after the DADA class as well.

My two knuts, anyway.

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Madame Librarian - Jan 15, 2004 7:57 am (#272 of 1448)

Good catch, icthestrals! But I'm referring to something he might have heard or seen after his parent's torture session. Some little fact or small detail, not the whole experience, per se. Or, someone who showed up and did not want to be identified.

Also, since everyone for years has been talking about the cruciatus curse and how it affected his parents, Neville may not have had to remember it directly to be horrified at the thought of it.

Ciao. Barb

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SarcasticGinny - Jan 26, 2004 3:54 pm (#273 of 1448)

Ooh, icthestrals-that's so interesting! Now that you mention it, Neville instantly connects screaming with the Crucio curse when he hears the egg. Yet his willingness to volunteer his knowlege of Crucio to "Moody" in class and subsequent horror at seeing it done to the spider makes me believe that, like Harry with A.K., he knew bits and pieces of what happened from his own memory and those of others, but had never actually seen it done before. Still, the immediate connection with screaming makes me think poor little Neville heard the whole thing.

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veraco - Jan 29, 2004 3:59 am (#274 of 1448)

I'm not sure what role will Neville play for now on, or how big his role is going to be, but I'm happy he is getting better and I'm sure that he will be even better with the help of the DA (I think it might be still going on in future books, or so I hope).

I also think that the fact that next time around he will have a wand made for him and not for his dad will help a lot too, that and maybe the fact that his grandma can't say he is not much a wizard after what happen in OoP (believe me have someone in your back telling you you are not good is not very helpful).

As for the MimMim references, I think its great, but now that you mention it, is just me or JK was telling us not only Neville but a part of all the characters was going to change and show us a different part of them? Harry for the first time I think actually let out his rage and told DD what he felt, Hermione said she felt rebellious, Ron got better at quidditch, Ginny finally got involve... etc etc maybe the MimMim was working it's magic not only in Neville but all Gryffindors.

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Blast - Feb 6, 2004 2:36 pm (#275 of 1448)

I think I'm back!
Is'nt it funny that after Neville's tea with Crouch\ Moody, in the GoF that he is a little sedated, too calm, did the Fake Moody try and find out if Neville remembered something else about the night his parents were tourchered? Was a spell put on Neville ? If Neville was with his parents the night they were torchered was he torchered as well, Bellatrix seemed to try and do it in the department of Mysteries, so why would not she have done it to Neville when he was younger.

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scully jones - Feb 6, 2004 5:00 pm (#276 of 1448)

yeah right
Well, Crouch was accused of participating in the torture of his parents... He could have tried to find out something...

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DayWalker - Feb 15, 2004 8:32 pm (#277 of 1448)

My guess is that we really haven't seen Neville's true power yet. I think once he has his own wand that will be Neville's biggest turning point. The one theory I LOVE is the pheonix feathers, what if Neville's new wand had a pheonix feather? Neville and Harry together could topple Voldemort. With Harry giving the final curse to kill Voldemort.

I have always been of the theory that Neville, like Harry to some degree, was there with his parents when they were tortured. He saw what happened and was given a memory eraser like the muggle family, the Roberts, at the Quidditch World Cup. As he gets older he begins to remember more, unlike the muggles who get the memory eraser Neville is of the Wizarding World so he doesn't think it's a dream or vision.

This might be far fetched but what do you think?

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Leviosa - Feb 16, 2004 2:27 am (#278 of 1448)

Is it really important if Neville's new wand has a phoenix feather? He can't have a wand with a feather of Fawkes (who has only given two for Harry's and Voldemort's wand). As I understand it a feather of another phoenix wouldn't have another reaction or power, that would help him against Voldemort, than any other wand core.

I too have always believed in the Neville-memory-charm-theory. But if it is true that Neville watched his parents' torture it puzzles me that he doesn't collapse when he is near a Dementor. In my opinion he experiences are nearly as bad as Harry's but Harry collapses in the train in POA while Neville (and Ginny) only look very pale. Even if Neville has a memory charm placed upon him he would hear his parents screaming (Harry doesn't remember his parents' death but hears them never the less). If Neville hears the screams of his parents I would expect a stronger reaction than just looking pale.

I still like the memory-charm-theory but Neville's reaction to the Dementor really puzzles me... Any thoughts?

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Neville Longbottom - Feb 16, 2004 3:16 am (#279 of 1448)

I doubt Neville witnessed the torture of his parents. Like Leviosa, I think his reaction to the Dementors would have been even stronger. My guess is that when the Dementors arrived, he remembered visiting his parents at St. Mungo's, which is really bad enough.

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SarcasticGinny - Feb 22, 2004 9:11 am (#280 of 1448)

Not to stray off topic, but is anyone really sure that the Dementors can pierce a memory charm to make Neville's worst moments come to the surface? I mean the memory has been magically supressed or even "erased" as they sometimes say. Maybe the dementors can't really get past it, or if they can, the memory doesn't come through with complete clarity. For instance, the first time Harry is near a dementor, he only hears someone screaming pleading screams. He can't hear what they are saying and has no knowlege that it is his mother. I'm not sure, but I think maybe Neville is experiencing a muddled reaction like this because of the memory charm in which he hears someone in deep distress but has no concrete knowlege of what is going on in that memory.

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scully jones - Feb 22, 2004 1:59 pm (#281 of 1448)

yeah right
I think Ginny might be right there... Harry was there, but too young to understand... It takes several experiences for those memories to come to the surface.

I don't think the dementors would be able to bring Neville's memory to surface if it was put under a memory charm.

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Leviosa - Feb 23, 2004 2:44 am (#282 of 1448)

But Harry collapses the first time he meets a dementor, even if he doesn't know who's screaming. It's the experience alone, not the memory that makes him collapse. If Neville witnessed him parents' torture, this experience would affect him stronger near a dementor, memory charm or not.

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Hogs Head - Feb 23, 2004 6:47 pm (#283 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Neville Longbottom is certainly the most interesting character development in book 5, and his larger role in books 6 & 7 seems certain. This post considers the plot uses of Neville if indeed Harry Potter (HP) is presumed to be the correct object, rather than Neville, of the Trelawaney prophesy broken in the MoM incident and recalled by Dumbledore (DD) in ch. 37.

At the end of OP (ch. 37, pg. 842 in my first American edition), HP queries DD on the possibility that Neville might instead be the true object of the prophesy: "Then - it might not be me?" said Harry. "I am afraid," said Dumbledore slowly . . . "that there is no doubt that it is [ital.] you." Though HP goes on to further test DD's premise, it seems as if the reader has to accept this -- for now -- as true. So, sorry to those who predict Neville to be the true object of the prophesy, but I can't go with those theories until JKR gives us more to the contrary. (Of course, one can't rule out entirely that the reader will learn in books 6 or 7 that DD has planted, in HP's vulnerable mind, false information (or, to VM, disinformation), but for now that seems out of context with the tone of the last pages of book 5, where DD is purportedly coming clean, giving HP "everything." Yet still, the reader wonders whether VM will promptly search HP's mind for new post-MoM information or whether the occlumency lessons will resume soon enough to preclude this -- tantalizing, isn't it?)

Even if it is assumed that Harry is the sole object (other than VM) of the prophesy and that DD and the reader all know it with certainty, that does not rule out the use of "Neville-confusion," i.e., over the object of the prophesy, as a plot line, either in HP's mind or in VM's. Indeed, I feel almost certain that this (whether VM has mistakenly focued on HP as his true foe, rather than Neville) will, in some way, become an important plot line.

So far only HP and DD have been party to the cited conversation. HP is not 100% convinced at this time by DD. Most importantly, VM is not yet privy to the conversation and might be a step or two behind DD. Further, VM still doesn't know the second half of the prophesy and might incorrectly surmise the balance. VM's self-indulgent presumptions and arrogant miscalculations have, so far, been a VM character flaw that JKR has portrayed and exploited in the twist endings of books 1, 2 and 4. [Note that books 1 & 2 utilized the device of deux ex machina to a significant extent, and book 4 to a somewhat lesser extent, and that the errant presumption or miscalculation by VM was in each case essential to the operation of the device.] We might see another reprise of this device in either book 6 or 7 concerning Neville as the object of miscalculation.

Even if the reader presumes that DD has been truthful to HP here, DD (and indirectly JKR) might still make fair use of Neville as a diversion or decoy of sorts. Our present HP is full of self-doubt and is none too happy with DD. He might still wonder or even dream about Neville being the object of the prophesy, and hence DD might plant the seeds of doubt in VM's mind, using HP's temporary vulnerability.

As an aside, one wonders whether our adolescent HP, having a tough time in book 5, will experience some pangs of jealously if and when Neville (HP's student in the DAs) begins to gain recognition or, especially, if VM or the popular opinion begins to view Neville as the true VM nemesis.

Okay, I will stop with one more thought which runs somewhat counter to my initial assumption. That twinkle in DD's eye at the end of book 4, when he learns that VM utilized HP's blood in his reincarnation -- I had thought that the use of HP's blood would ultimately lead to VM's downfall either by exposing VM to some new vulnerability or by planting some false assumption in VM's head that he now had some resistance to HP's powers or some shared resistance with HP against the powers of others. Now, even though I have for now rejected the "Neville as true object of the prophesy" theories, I nonetheless wonder whether VM should have instead use, or will come to worry that he should have used, Neville's blood instead of HP's. Will these threads connect later on?

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shepherdess - Mar 2, 2004 7:01 pm (#284 of 1448)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Hogs Head,

That was very interesting, well thought out, and clearly articulated. I just have one question:

You said:"DD...might still make fair use of Neville as a diversion or decoy of sorts." and:"DD might plant the seeds of doubt in VM's mind, using HP's temporary vulnerability."

Do you really believe, given Dumbledore's loving and protective feelings for his students (some even above others), that he would use Harry that way or put Neville in possible danger by using him as "Voldemort bait"?

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Neville Longbottom - Mar 3, 2004 2:58 am (#285 of 1448)

Yes, I think he would. If it really is a question between putting Neville in danger and putting everybody else in danger. But more so, maybe Neville will learn someday about the prophecy and then decide to be a bait for Voldemort.

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 3, 2004 5:13 am (#286 of 1448)

Wannabe writer
I really can't see that. Considering how much Neville has suffered already... In his own way he has been through as much too young as Harry has.

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Rod Beecham - Mar 3, 2004 5:32 am (#287 of 1448)

Interesting post from Hogs Head. I demur on the subject of Harry becoming jealous of Neville, though. Yes, Harry is a very angry young man at the moment (small wonder!), but one of his most attractive characteristics is his strong and spontaneous sympathy for the underdog (remember how, when he is feeling his most bitter and twisted at the and of OoP, he forgets his own problems in his indignation that people would take Luna Lovegood's possessions?).

Similarly, in the scene at St Mungo's where Ron, Hermione and Ginny discover the truth about Neville's parents and we have the famous - and incredibly beautiful and poignant - bubble-gum wrapper incident, JKR writes: "His mother tottered away, back up the ward, humming to herself. Neville looked around at the others, his expression defiant, as though daring them to laugh, but Harry did not think he'd ever found anything less funny in his life."

I just can't see Harry having anything but affection and respect for Neville.

(By the way, the "But Neville said quietly, 'Thanks, Mum.'" line is one I find very difficult to read without getting teary.)

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mooncalf - Mar 3, 2004 11:41 am (#288 of 1448)

I think that Neville Longbottom has a very interesting idea about our Neville. I can easily see Neville doing something recklessly brave after hearing some part of the prophecy story. His problem has always been a lack of confidence and self-esteem, but he really is quite brave as he proved in the Department of Mysteries. I can also see him feeling that he is somehow responsible, or determined to prove himself, or determined to do right by his parents and putting himself in harm's way for any or all of those reasons.

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Peregrine - Mar 3, 2004 8:39 pm (#289 of 1448)

If Neville knew he were part of the prophecy that may just give him a boost of confidence...knowing that he's special enough for Voldemort to want to kill--if that makes sense.

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 4, 2004 4:43 am (#290 of 1448)

Wannabe writer
Edited by Mar 4, 2004 4:43 am
You think it would make him feel special? Anyone else would freak out!- Look how badly Harry reacts, and he's used to the notion of Voldemort and Company being after him.

Mind you, I couldn't help but marvel at how brave Neville was in facing down Bellatrix, the woman responsible for his parent's condition. Another kid in his place would have run away... but not our Neville.

So as regards Neville and his reaction, it's 50/50. We know he's brave and capable of enduring burdens much heavier than anyone his age should have to. But even bearing in mind his previous tribulations, learning he narrowly avoided (?- we don't even know whether he has yet) being on the most evil wizard of this century's hitlist might be a bit much.

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Rod Beecham - Mar 4, 2004 12:17 pm (#291 of 1448)

Dear Psychedelic Enchantress,

(Delighted to see you're a Tintin fan, by the way!)

It struck me, reading your post, that Neville's nerve has only ever failed him in relation to himself exclusively: "I'm no good at Potions," "I'm a hopeless wizard," etc. His horror at (false) Moody's demonstration of the Cruciatus Curse was, of course, completely understandable, but also, I think, an indication of his great capacity for empathy.

He runs - alone - straight for Malfoy and his goons when Malfoy makes some crack about St Mungo's, as I recall. And everyone acknowledges his courage in other highly dangerous situations. He stood up to Harry, Ron and Hermione in the first book, not for his own sake, but for the sake of Gryffindor. Give Neville a cause that affects others, and he's as brave as a lion!

All this is a long-winded way of saying that I think Neville's loathing of Voldemort for the misery he has caused other people would make him quite capable of shouldering the burden of the prophecy.

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mooncalf - Mar 4, 2004 8:21 pm (#292 of 1448)

Good analysis, Rod. I think Neville has far more backbone than those who know him give him credit for.

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Hogs Head - Mar 6, 2004 2:48 pm (#293 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Thanks for the general comment, Shepherdess. No, I didn't quite mean "bait." I didn't intend to suggest that JKR would have DD throw poor Neville to the slaughter. I was musing how Voldemort might have something of an anxiety attack if he begins to doubt that Harry is his true nemesis or, rather, if he begins to worry whether it was Neville all along. That sort of doubt can be fostered, however, and I think JKR could well have the DD character do that. As to putting Neville at risk, I suspect that lies more within the Neville character's own profile.

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Hogs Head - Mar 6, 2004 2:56 pm (#294 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Don't get me wrong, Rod. Harry is portrayed as being very fond of Neville, and Neville is portrayed as the sort of fellow anyone should like. But our 15 year old -- soon to be 16 year old -- Harry is growing through a normal range of emotions for that age, compounded by some tough challenges and criticisms. He has successfully come through what he has faced so far, but weren't you a little surprised with how accurately (and candidly) Harry's emotional challenges as a 15 year old were portrayed by JKR?

But ever since his first encounter with Hagrid in the sea-side shack, Harry has enjoyed his new found celebrity. Maybe "enjoy" is too strong, because sometimes it hasn't been pleasurable, but it has framed his self-identity. What normal emotions would Harry experience if the focus of that celebrity were shifted even to the loveable Neville? Even Ullyses was tempted with jealousy.

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mooncalf - Mar 6, 2004 5:40 pm (#295 of 1448)

That is an interesting idea, and full of possibilities. I'm not sure, though, that I would characterize Neville as lovable. As fond as we all are of him, I don't think that others see him that way. He is the kid that bullies pick on, and his peers laugh at him. Even Harry keeps trying to ditch him in Book 3. His Grandmother bullies him and has no respect for him. In the movies he is reduced to nothing more than comic relief. It would certainly be a huge change for everybody's image of Neville (including his own) if he turned out to be someone that the Dark Lord feared.

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Rod Beecham - Mar 6, 2004 6:57 pm (#296 of 1448)

This is really thought-provoking stuff! Thank you, Hogs Head and Mooncalf.

Hermione doesn't laugh at Neville but, yes, she's about the only one of his peers who doesn't. He invites patronage.

The point about Harry's anger, and his self-image being bound up with his celebrity, welcome or unwelcome as that may be, strikes me as very shrewd. At the same time, I remember Harry's feelings after Dumbledore told him about Neville's parents. If I remember rightly, Harry goes up to his dormitory and hears Neville snoring and compares his own situation with Neville's and thinks that Neville may be more deserving of sympathy than himself. Like the Luna incident, it's a huge compliment to Harry's fundamental decency, sense of fairness, and capacity for empathy (qualities sadly absent, however, from his dealings with the opposite sex!).

Thinking of Harry's anger makes we wonder about Neville's anger. He must have bucketloads of it underneath. It will be most interesting to see how he develops, especially now that he will have his own wand and not his father's. He could rapidly become quite formidable, I think, and not necessarily in an attractive way.

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virgoddess1313 - Mar 7, 2004 11:50 am (#297 of 1448)

I believe Neville has a great deal of anger, and who could blame him? His passionate reaction to both Malfoy's crack about St. Mungo's patients and when he was faced with one of the people accused of torturing his parents shows that he's got a whole heap of strong feelings the we never really saw in Neville before recently. I think that Voldie's return to power and the subsequent battles that will have to be fought will bring out nothing but the best in him. In my opinion he has proved himself both strong and capable and I tend to cheer more at his triumphs than anyone elses. Poor kid. Gotta love him.

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Sinister Kittens - Mar 8, 2004 5:11 am (#298 of 1448)

I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
I think we saw his self confidence at work in GoF, he had already asked both Hermione and Ginny to the ball before Ron and Harry really started to think about things, and his determination to learn in the DADA group really showed strength of character.

I don't think that we should underestimate dear Neville by any means, I think he could certainly hold his own when he puts his mind to it, he just lacked encouragement. - Okay just my opinion.

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mooncalf - Mar 11, 2004 10:20 pm (#299 of 1448)

I think that your opinion is very valid. The point about Neville is that everybody underestimates him, and he probably underestimates himself more than anybody. Anytime he is faced with a feeling that is stronger than his own self-doubt, he really comes through; look at the way he fights when he's really angry. He has courage by the bucket load. The only thing really wrong with him, as Professor McGonnagal tells him, is his lack of confidence. I think that we will see some surprising things from poor little Neville.

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Helen K. - Mar 12, 2004 3:47 pm (#300 of 1448)

I think that Neville's prospect of getting a new wand is quite symbolic considering that his self-confidence grows very fast. To have his own wand, not his father's might be very important for him - it's one more step to some independence in the family which has regarded him as a good-for-nothing wizard since his childhood. Though I don't think that a phoenix feather wand would be the one he needs. Sure it was considered on this forum that the wand with phoenix feather would have some problem fighting LV unless he changes his own. And I still believe that Neville has all chances to be the boy who "will have power the Dark Lord knows not". We don't know what kind of power it is and we can't be sure that LV has already marked any of the boys and what does it means "as his equal" (though it's maybe just my problems with English Smile) And one more thing - I can not imagine Harry or Neville killing someone, even LV, Harry was terrified when he new he could be a murderer (by the way, how is he supposed to do this - to learn Avada Kedavra?) So the power which will vanquish LV might be not the killing power, I'd rather believe it is love like many of you wrote here. Sorry if I repeated somebody's words, I'm new to the forum and still haven't read a lot of messages (is it possible to read so much? Poor me! Smile)

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:12 am

Neville Longbottom - Mar 12, 2004 4:42 pm (#301 of 1448)
I think that Neville's prospect of getting a new wand is quite symbolic considering that his self-confidence grows very fast. To have his own wand, not his father's might be very important for him

I completely agree with you. I think the breaking of the wand symbolizes, that with the battle in the Department of Mysteries, Neville finally steps out of his father's shadow.

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 13, 2004 5:08 am (#302 of 1448)

Wannabe writer
Edited by Mar 13, 2004 5:09 am
In a way that's another similarity with Harry. Harry, never having known his father, had him placed on a pedestal by virtually everyone he met (Dumbledore, Hagrid, the wizarding world at large), and developed this picture of him as a heroic martyr. The one dissenter was Snape, but Harry attributed this to him being bitter and twisted (I'm not saying that still isn't the case- he has a lot of growing up to do). But now Harry knows James was not so perfect, he can now stop venerating his "saintly father" (Snape's sarcastic, but apt, remark), and instead strike out on his own. I think part of his problem was connected with Lupin's comment- "Your parents sacrificed their lives for you, Harry"- he thought he would have to prove the sacrifice was worth it. Now he can see that he and he alone can live that life, without having to 'prove' anything.

Neville has likewise never known his father properly (I can't remember how old he was when Frank and Alice were tortured, but he can't have been older than a toddler). His grandma, who he seems to regard with more fear than fondness, evidently compares his parents' abilities to his seeming lack of on a regular basis. This is hardly the healthiest atmosphere for a much burdened boy to grow up in.

In OotP he had a set aim to work towards, and was growing in confidence, I really think he is at last proving he is his own person and not some meagre shadow of his mum and dad. It's another instance of JKR's attention to detail that this 'coming of age' is directly parallel to Harry's, making the link between the two closer.

I for one can't wait to see what the future holds in store for Neville.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 13, 2004 6:17 am (#303 of 1448)

I believe the Lestranges attacked the Longbottoms "shortly after the fall of Voldemort (c.1981)."* They were trying to get information on Voldie's whereabouts. Though vague, I would guess that this is no more than a few weeks to a few months after James and Lily were killed. So Neville was maybe about 15-20 months old.

(*Quoted from the HP Lexicon.)

Ciao. Barb

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rambkowalczyk - Mar 24, 2004 6:08 am (#304 of 1448)

There is one statement about Neville by Snape that may be prophetic. This is from the COS: "He causes devastion with the simplest of spells. We'll be sending whats left of Justin Finch-Fletchley to the hospital wing in a matchbox."

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Czarina - Mar 24, 2004 6:50 am (#305 of 1448)

I thought that was Snape being a git, as usual. And in CoS, Neville is much more inept than he will be four years later in Bk6.

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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 24, 2004 10:03 pm (#306 of 1448)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I think Nicola's notion that Neville, as Harry's equal, will die is pretty interesting. Think about it. The odds were pretty even that it could have been Neville that was attacked as a baby by Voldermort but it was Harry instead. Harry and Neville sort of have this "what if" link. Since they were both the targets, whatever happens to one would really affect the other (both thinking, wow, that could have been/should have been me)...." - Accio Sirius

Isn't it interesting that for the first 11 years of Harry's life he didn't know he was a wizard and therefore didn't ever "use" magic because he didn't know he had it. During most of this same time, Neville, born of a pure blood family is initially thought to be a squib because he exhibits no particular magical ability. So for very different reasons, the two candidates likely to have the ability to vanquish the Dark Lord do not use magic at all during there formative years.

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rambkowalczyk - Mar 26, 2004 7:55 am (#307 of 1448)

The point I was trying to make in post 302 was that Neville was indeed a powerful wizard. He just needs to control it better.

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Hogs Head - Apr 1, 2004 7:06 pm (#308 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
This is a pity post for poor Neville -- the "most likely to be more exciting in Book 6" character we have. Almost a week without a post. How did that happen? Lots of energy in the "Longbottom illness" thread though.

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Catherine - Apr 2, 2004 12:36 pm (#309 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
I just posted in the Hermione thread (#141 of 142) about Hermione's vulnerability and how I felt like, aside from Harry, she was most singled out for attacks. I still think that's true, but I began to wonder something as I was writing about Hermione's attack by the mountain troll: Could Neville have been singled out as well?

Was the wild broom ride in SS an example of Neville's incompetence, or could Neville have been jinxed? Quirrell jinxed Harry's broom in full view of the school! So it isn't impossible that someone could jinx Neville during a class. Why would someone want to jinx Neville's broom? The answer could lie in the Remembrall.

I've always wondered if there was a reason that Malfoy tried to steal the Remembrall, aside from the undeniable fact that he is a bullying git. Draco is certainly more "in the know" about the wizarding world than Harry, and at times he knows things that Ron doesn't (Tri-Wizard Tournament, that Sirius supposedly Black betrayed Lily and James). Many of us on the forum strongly suspect that Neville has had a memory charm placed upon him. What if Draco, perhaps from listening in on DE conversations or even being told outright, knows that Neville knows something important? After all, it is Draco's aunt Belletrix, along with her husband who are in Azkaban for using the Cruciatus Curse on Neville's parents. I notice in SS that Draco tries to take the Remembrall at the breakfast table when Neville first receives it, and then again during the Flying class. I wonder if there is more to it than Draco being a thief (which I've discussed in other threads).

Snape is also almost as vicious to Neville as he is to Harry. In fact, it's my opinion that next to Harry, Snape is more awful to Neville than he is to any other boy (and is more awful to Hermione than any other girl).

Just some thoughts, as we know that part of the prophecy is known, and that Neville is one of two wizard boys born at the end of July.

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2004 5:51 am (#310 of 1448)

The times that Snape is nasty to Neville is usually when Neville screws up and melts cauldrons and stuff. It's obvious Snape doesn't know how to be encouraging. Snape isn't the only one to get peeved at Neville. It was McGonagall who forbid anyone giving him the password to Griffendor and making him wait outside till someone else opened the door. This was in POA. I know there have been some theories that a memory charm was put on him. The problem I have with it, couldn't this be easily found out. Wouldn't Gram have taken Neville to a healer because he's so scatter brained wondering what's the matter with this boy? A healer would then discover the memory charm and then try to remove it. How much of a memory can Neville have of his parents torture? Harry was 15 months old when his parents died. I think its unlikely Neville would be more than two when Bellatrix and Co made their housecall. There is one theory that baby Neville knew that Bart Crouch Jr was just doing look-out duty and Fudge modified his memory to keep it a secret. But I don't think that baby Neville was paying attention to who was guarding the house. Even if baby Neville knew who was torturing his parents what two year old is going to say she did it, he did it, but not him.

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eggplant - Apr 10, 2004 9:56 am (#311 of 1448)

We know that when Neville saw his parents tortured he was older than Harry was when his parents were killed, but we don’t know how much older; this is what OoP says:

‘"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledore. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known.’

We don’t know how long “after” is but it’s possible he was old enough to remember it, perhaps his bad memory is a unconscious attempt to forget it.

Eggplant

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Ladybug220 - Apr 11, 2004 6:57 am (#312 of 1448)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Eggplant,

Where does it say that Neville saw his parents being tortured? I always thought that was just a theory (a very good theory) floating about.
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eggplant - Apr 11, 2004 8:52 am (#313 of 1448)

We don’t know for sure that Neville saw his parents tortured but it seems like a pretty good bet, very young children are usually in the presence of one of their parents. If he did see it I think he may be subconsciously suppressing memories, all memories. Another possibility is that little Neville himself was tortured; the Death Eater may have done it in front of his parents to get them to talk. Perhaps young minds are more resilient than adult ones so the pain curse didn’t drive him insane as it did to his parents, but it may have effected his memory.

By the way, the quote I used before came from GoF not OoP. Sorry.

Eggplant

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Tomoé - Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am (#314 of 1448)

Back in business
Talking about Harry's interview :

It's the right thing to do, Harry,' said Neville, who was sitting opposite him. He was rather pale, but went on in a low voice, 'It must have been ... though ... talking about it ... was it?'

'Yeah,' mumbled Harry, 'but people have got the right to know what's Voldemort's capable of, haven't they?'

'That's right,' said Neville, nodding, 'and his Death Eaters, too ... people should know ...' (OoP p.503)

Sound to me like Neville have something to tell people about the Death Eaters. His parents' madness is not a likely option at this state of the story, they are in February and the Lestranges had made the front page of the Daily Prophet in early January. If students had notice for Susan Bones, there no reason they wouldn't notice for Neville.

Any thought?

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Catherine - Apr 16, 2004 5:44 pm (#315 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
Well, Ron grew up in the wizarding world, and Hermione reads everything, and neither of them knew about Neville's parents.

Even Dumbledore was surprised that Neville hadn't told anyone why he was being raised by his grandmother.

Perhaps there was more notoriety for Susan Bones because an entire family was killed, versus torture and subsequent hospitalization.

It is interesting to note the difference, especially since so many of us on the forum think there is something "fishy" or not right about the Longbottom's stay in St. Mungo's. Secrecy usually means that there's something to hide....

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Tomoé - Apr 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#316 of 1448)

Back in business
Of course, Ron and Hermione didn't knew for Neville before Christmas, and they didn't for Susan Bones either.

After the DEs' breakout in January however, we are told that students who were related to escaped DEs' victims were under a gruesome sort of reflected fame and JKR give us the example of Susan Bones. She didn't write "some of the students", she write students, that seems to included every students who were related to any victims of the escaped DEs, Neville included.

Plus, the only charge held against Bellatrix, Rodolphus and Rabastan was the Longbottom's torture. Could anyone missed the Longbottom name appearing alone under three pictures out of ten (or was it 12?) on the front page? And there were more details on the inner pages of the Daily Prophet, so if they made the connection between Edgar Bones and Susan Bones, I don't see why they wouldn't connect Frank and Alice Longbottom to Neville Longbottom.

As for Neville comment in February, if you take only the first line of the quote I made two post ago, it could sound like Neville envy Harry's courage to share the worst moment of his life, just for the sake of sharing it, but Neville second line imply that "People should know what's Voldemort's Death Eaters are capable of".

Maybe Neville saw something happened to his parents, something that caused their illness alongside with Crucios and that prevent them from getting better. Maybe the Crucios' effects are already over but the other thing effects were never treated. Like the way Mme Pomfrey didn't succeed to heal Montague or Marietta, because she don't know what exactly happened to them. Maybe no one is keeping the Longbottom from recovering, maybe they are just wrongly diagnosed.

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mike miller - Apr 17, 2004 3:07 am (#317 of 1448)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Interesting hypothesis Tomoe'. I think you're right about Neville seeing something when his parents were tortured. It seems that Neville's memory problems might be the result of some kind of memory charm to cover-up those events. My question is, who did the charm? Was it well intentioned healers at St. Mungo's trying to prevent a childhood trauma from permanently harming Neville or is it a by-product of his parents attack? In either case, Neville seems to be getting better with time and as he confronts what happened to his parents.

As far as Frank and Alice, it is certainly possible that the full extent of their condition has been misdiagnosed. There are several instances in the books where it took some time to cure someone (how long did it that to get Hermione back to normal after the Polyjuice Potion in CoS?). However, the healers at St. Mungo's have had years to try many different treatments. It is possible that the Healers have given up trying to help the Longbottoms and are simply trying to make them comfortable.

In my opinion, there's something "dodgy" about why the Longbottom's have not recovered and here's why:

1) People seem to be able to recover from almost everything, except AK of course (I do concede your point about proper diagnosis).

2) I've been suspicious of Lucius Malfoy's support for St. Mungo's since the start. It could something he does because he thinks it casts him in a better light and then there could be alterior motives behind his support.

3) I think there are many parallel's in these books, Harry and LV/Tom Riddle, Harry and James; and, Harry and Neville. I beleive that understanding what hapen to both sets of parents will provide keys to defeating LV in the end.

It is my hope that in book 6 we see the key characters mature through searching their past and their family history. This maturity will position them for the final showdown in book 7.

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Akira - May 5, 2004 3:20 pm (#318 of 1448)

I was reading PoA yesterday and I couldn't help the obvious comparisons JK Rowling makes between Peter Pettigrew and Neville. She comes out and says Peter resembles Neville on page 213. Do you think Neville may be the friend who betrays the trio?

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Ozymandias - May 5, 2004 4:42 pm (#319 of 1448)

Nothing beside remains...
I always interpreted the Peter/Neville comparison as a device to explain why everyone didn't suspect Peter of switching sides. If he seemed like Neville, kind of well-intentioned but clumsy, people wouldn't suspect him. But I just can't imagine Neville intentionally betraying HRH. Now accidentally, perhaps while trying to help...That's a definite possibliity in my book.

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Hagsquid - May 6, 2004 8:20 am (#320 of 1448)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Of course... no one suspected Peter either...

I think Akira may be on to something...

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Neville Longbottom - May 6, 2004 10:34 am (#321 of 1448)

This is nothing against those who like the theory, but I can only repeat all over again that I truly hate it and not only, because I'm a Neville fan. In these books, it is repeated over and over again, that it are the choices that define somebody, not the abilities. Harry and Riddle are somehow similar, yet Harry chose a different road than Riddle. Neville and Peter are somehow similar on the surface, but to say that therefore Neville will turn out to be a traitor, is completely contradicting one of the basic messages of all five books.

Besides, what else does poor Neville has to do to convince everybody, that he's loyal? He was willing to take the Cruciatus Curse to help Harry. The curse that drove his parents insane! The curse he is afraid of. If it would have been Avada Kedavra he faced, it would have been a less powerful scene, because it is the Cruciatus-Curse that really frightens him. Also, the similarities between Peter and Neville are really only on the surface. When did Neville ever tag along with Harry and his friends? He was mostly by himself and not with the trio. Peter, on the other hand, was a part of the group.

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Prefect Marcus - May 6, 2004 10:41 am (#322 of 1448)

"Anyone can cook"
Hear, hear, Neville!

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Tomoé - May 6, 2004 10:45 am (#323 of 1448)

Back in business
Nicely said Neville!

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Hagsquid - May 6, 2004 11:54 am (#324 of 1448)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
It's still a plausable theory. The book hints that noone suspected Peter, but he turned out to be the traitor. It's hard to understand why this is, but I would never suspect Neville, so why not?

Harry = James Ginny = Lily Ron = Sirius Hermoine = Lupin Neville = Peter

It is at least concievable in my mind. Smile

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The giant squid - May 6, 2004 12:04 pm (#325 of 1448)

Concievable, yes. But along with the parallels between the last genereation and the current one, JKR has pointed out a lot of differences as well. As has been said here before, the theme of "choices" is very strong, and HRH & friends are making different choices than their predecessors did.

In other words, I don't think Neville will betray Harry because all the signs point to it. Wink

--Mike

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Neville Longbottom - May 6, 2004 12:49 pm (#326 of 1448)

Harry = James Ginny = Lily Ron = Sirius Hermoine = Lupin Neville = Peter

To be honest, I don't like the other comparisons, either. ;-) Hermione and Lupin, especially, are completely different characters. Okay, they are both bookish, but what else do they have in common? Hermione is likeable, but nonetheless an annoying know-it-all, who constantly nags and is always willing to defend her point. Lupin is a shy guy, really nice, but he wants to please everybody (or at least everybody he considers a friend) and is therefore not able to stand up to his friends the way Hermione is.

We don't know anything about Lily, except that Petunia was jealous of her and that she sacrificed herself for Harry. So we can't really compare her to Ginny, because we don't have enough informations. I'll admit, in the pensieve she was a bit similar to Ginny, but she also behaved in a way Hermione would. We can't really judge her. Surely her red hair is not enough to compare her with Ginny.

Sirius comes from a family of Dark Wizards. However, he was also able to rebell against them and run away from home. He is pretty arrogant and likes to hex people just for the fun of it. He is not afraid to say his opinion. Ron was raised by a loving and tolerant family. He is not really able to stand up to them (even when he should, like with the twins and their Snackboxes), but he is also decent, and, although a bit hot-heated, not as reckless as Sirius. In contrast to the arrogant Sirius, he lacks self-confidence and feels overhsadowed often enough.

James as a youth was an arrogant brat. Maybe likeable when he wanted to be, but still arrogant. Although I am sure he changed when he grew up, judging from the pensieve scene, I don't see much similarities between Harry and James. They look alike and like to play Quidditch. That's not much.

And I am glad you didn't mention Snape=Draco.

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Hagsquid - May 6, 2004 1:04 pm (#327 of 1448)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I didn't mean for the connections to be *exact*, just a general comparison. Two best friends, one couple, and a traitor. If I as *forced* to make match ups, that's the selections I would give. (Based on Ron being Harry's *best* friend, and Sirius being James) etc.

Snape and Draco... ugh, no. Draco is too spoiled to ever be considered to have the depth that Snape has.

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Neville Longbottom - May 6, 2004 1:23 pm (#328 of 1448)


I didn't mean for the connections to be *exact*, just a general comparison. Two best friends, one couple, and a traitor. If I as *forced* to make match ups, that's the selections I would give. (Based on Ron being Harry's *best* friend, and Sirius being James) etc.


But that's exactly why I dislike this theory that much. The real characters of these figures are totally ignored, they are only seen in the way how they are related to the Potter in their generation. Ron and Sirius are not seen as Ron and Sirius, but as the best friend of the Potter in their generation. Hermione and Lupin are nothing but the bookish other best friend of the Potter in the generation. Ginny and Lily are nothing but the read-haired possible love interest. And in this theory the Snape = Draco theory would fit very well, because they can be seen as nothing but the enemy/rival of a Potter. Of course they are different, but so are all the other characters.

I also think the basis for the Neville will become a traitor theory is: Peter is short and chubby and magically not in the league of the Potter in his generation. Neville is short and chubby and magically not in the league of the Potter in his generation. They are only compared by their appereance and power, but never by their actual characters. Peter was the tag-along, who hid behind James. Neville is a quiet guy, who stands up for his opinions if necessary and is also able to admit his mistakes. Neville put his life and sanity in danger to help Harry, Peter was afraid to be killed and therefore became a traitor.

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Prefect Marcus - May 6, 2004 3:51 pm (#329 of 1448)

"Anyone can cook"
The theory of Neville turning traitor because Peter turned traitor has been batted around quite a bit. Ever since PoA came out, it has popped up over and over.

I must admit I was intrigued by it at first, but with each succeeding book, it seem less and less likely. The more we learn about James Potter and his generation, the more discrepancies arise that must be explained away.

I've reached the point that I look at it as an interesting theory, but one with not a lot of evidence to back it up.

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Mare - May 7, 2004 4:43 am (#330 of 1448)

Neville, I couldn't agree with you more. I always hated the marauders equals HRH theory. Especially the one were Neville turns traitor (yawn, been there , done that, how many traitors can a book hold?)
But with your -comparing everybody to the "Potter in their generation" and thereby conveniently forgetting all the characters own personalities- post, you put the finger on exactly the right spot. (for me )

It's like saying Neville will be better in magic because he will get his own wand. I firmly believe he will get better in magic, because his confidence is rising. A new wand might help with a boost of selfconfidence, but it won't be the reason he might do a little bit better with his charms and transfigurations. It will all come from inside himself!

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Verbina - May 7, 2004 6:43 am (#331 of 1448)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Which we are already beginning to see. He has grwon ability wise by leaps and bounds with Harry teaching, but especially after the DE's escaped.

I have never been overly fond of the theory myself. There are some correlations between the past "Potter group" and this one. But that was initially. Things are changing. They are all developing personalities of their own.

IF and I do stress if, it was to happen with Neville betraying them, it would be an accident. I don't think it would be while under a curse or anything. More like a comment said at the wrong time in front of the wrong person.

No one would suspect Neville? We are. hehe Now the one that would not be expected, completely, would be Ron or Hermione!!

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Weeny Owl - May 7, 2004 8:17 am (#332 of 1448)

Snape's hatred of Harry has nothing to do with Harry but with James. Harry isn't James. Each character may have something in common with others, but each has had different experiences than the previous generation, and each has acted according to his/her own personality.

Neville has grown remarkably in five years, but he showed his courage early. He stood up to the trio when they were leaving Gryffindor and was awarded points for his bravery. He got into a fist fight during a Quidditch match. He was captured by the Inquistorial Squad and later followed Harry to the Department of Mysteries where he told a room full of Death Eaters that Harry wasn't alone.

None of that remotely resembles Wormtail's servile, fawning, cowardly behavior.

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Padfoot - May 7, 2004 10:54 am (#333 of 1448)

Well said Weeny owl!

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timrew - May 7, 2004 2:57 pm (#334 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Also, his parents were tortured into madness by the Death Eaters. And this is a good recruitment advert for Neville to enter their ranks?

No way!

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Chris. - May 9, 2004 4:38 am (#335 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I agree with Tim.

Neville realised the full extent of the Death Eater's madness and evilness when fake Moody showed the class the Unforgivables. Remember when Hermione had to shout out 'Stop it!' because Neville was shaking. He'll never join the ones who put his parents into a critical condition.

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Neville Longbottom - May 9, 2004 6:57 am (#336 of 1448)


when fake Moody showed the class the Unforgivables. Remember when Hermione had to shout out 'Stop it!' because Neville was shaking.


I thought Crouch juniors behaviour in this scene was one of the most sadistic and disgusting moments in the books so far. Before Umbridge appeared, I thought it was definitely the worst. First he tortured the Longbottoms into madness, and in this scene he shows Neville exactly what he did to his parents and even enjoys his reaction that much, that Hermione has to stop him.

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Hogs Head - May 12, 2004 5:50 pm (#337 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
There will be other traitors in Books 6 and/or 7, perhaps on both sides. However, Neville will not be one of them. I'll bet a dinner at China Grill in New York on it. (And if betting violates a Forum rule, I'm just kidding.) Oink.

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DJ Evans - May 14, 2004 6:22 pm (#338 of 1448)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I would love to know just exactly went on when Crouch, Jr/Moody took Neville back to his office after that class!!!! I've always wondered if he didn't preform some kind of spell or whatever on Neville, to find out what all Neville knew about his parents. Oh, there just a lot of possibilities/chances there for Crouch/Moody with Neville.

Later days, Deb

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Tom Vitleysa - May 15, 2004 6:05 am (#339 of 1448)

I've never understood the desire to place Neville as a traitor. I suppose it all stems from the imagined image of Peter, looking somewhat like Neville in Harry's head. Yet, Neville and Peter couldn't be more dissimilar. It certainly seems implied that Peter clung to his group, my guess is he was hard to get rid of on occasions where he wasn't wanted, while Neville is a total loner. HRH & Ginny are his closest friends and he hardly ever seems to be hanging out with them, at least we rarely see it and he'd never told them about his parents. Herbology hardly seems like a social activity. It seems like Neville spends most of his time by himself and he seems to prefer it that way.

Besides, when Harry imagined that idea of Peter looking like Neville, he was imagining a loyal friend, a somewhat bungling perhaps, but loyal friend of his father's. Somehow, Neville seemed to fit.

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Czarina II - May 17, 2004 7:35 pm (#340 of 1448)

Rowling vehemently denies that Neville is connected to Wormtail on her website. Don't know Rowling personally, but as I writer, if someone makes outlandishly incorrect theories about my characters, I usually deny it. It makes them rethink their theory and wonder how it really works out.

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Hogs Head - May 25, 2004 7:45 pm (#341 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Perhaps someone else has noticed this before, but I have not. We know for certain that Harry did not hear the prophecy when it broke at the MoM battle (he heard a replay or partial replay of it later from Dumbledore's pensieve). However, although I personally doubt that he did, Neville may have heard the prophecy when the sphere broke. The text does not rule that out with certainty. The sequence is:

1. Harry tugs on Neville's robes to help him up (OoP, ch. 35, p. 804, U.S. 1st ed.); 2. Neville's robes tear and the sphere drops from his pocket; 3. Neville's "floundering feet kicked it"; 4. The sphere "flew some ten feet to their right and smashed on the step beneath them"; 5. Harry and Neville "both . . . stare at the place where it had broken"; 6. A "pearly-white figure with hugely magnified eyes" rises in to the air "unnoticed by any but them"; (id., at p. 805); 7. "Harry could see its mouth moving, but in all the crashes and screams and yells surrounding them, not one word of the prophecy could he [i.e., Harry] hear."

While it is logical to assume that Neville, also ten feet away and also surrounded by the same noises, likewise could not hear it, we do not know that to be a fact.

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Romulus - May 26, 2004 1:35 am (#342 of 1448)

It is possible that Neville heard the prophecy, or perhaps just some of it. However, would he know what it meant even if he did hear it?

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Miréimé - May 26, 2004 5:37 pm (#343 of 1448)

Tomoé's only twin sister ^_~
Maybe he recognize Trelawney. What a shock to know she did one worthing prediction ! *_*

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Steve Newton - May 28, 2004 7:08 am (#344 of 1448)

Librarian
"I think that Neville's prospect of getting a new wand is quite symbolic considering that his self-confidence grows very fast. To have his own wand, not his father's might be very important for him"

I see a parallel with Ron. Ron is a worse than average keeper. (OK, much worse than average.) After the twins leave school he suddenly improves greatly, maybe even up to outstanding. We have yet to see how other parts of his life, confidence, will also improve now that he is out from under the weight of his family.

With Neville I see the same lessening of burden, expectations, with the acquisition of his new wand which will allow him to be himself and not have to live in the shadow of his father. (I will avoid any Freudian interpretations here.)

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Dumbledore - May 29, 2004 5:22 am (#345 of 1448)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I really like that idea, Steve!!

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*Lady Penelope* - May 31, 2004 7:46 am (#346 of 1448)

You should never underestimate how important a wardrobe based around the colour pink can be when you are planning to save the world...
Going back to the Remembrall conversation, do we know for sure that is was his Gram who sent it to him? Harry got several items from "surprise" sources (eg -- the Nimbus from McGonagall, the Firebolt from Sirius, the invisibility cloak from DD). Could someone have done the same thing here? After all, if he'd forgotten something that his Gram knew about, wouldn't she have just told him what it was? She doesn't seem like the kind of person who would give him enough credit to believe that he could remember whatever it was he'd forgotten. He could have just assumed it was from her...

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mooncalf - Jun 3, 2004 11:07 pm (#347 of 1448)

The paragraph begins, " A barn owl brought Neville a small, neat package from his grandmother." I'm afraid that's pretty definite.
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*Lady Penelope* - Jun 4, 2004 9:59 am (#348 of 1448)

You should never underestimate how important a wardrobe based around the colour pink can be when you are planning to save the world...
Darn it! I thought I might have been on to something. Thanks for correcting me, Mooncalf!

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mooncalf - Jun 4, 2004 10:02 am (#349 of 1448)

Oh, well. I'm sure that you'll come up with something else just as interesting!

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Accio Book Six - Jun 9, 2004 11:09 am (#350 of 1448)

Although I think you have some good ideas, and that the prophesy COULD have been about Neville, I think it there are just too many signs pointing to harry being the prophesy boy.

-Voldemort LITERALLY marked him as his equal... not only did he leave a mark, but he also made harry an equal by giving him his powers. And then there's the whole wand choosing harry thing...

-Voldemort never actually marked Neville personally. Though Voldemort is the ultimate reason that Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's and that might have left a "mark" in the form of hatred in Neville, it was not big V himself that tortured the Longbottoms... remember that they survived until after Voldemort was "defeated" by Harry.

-And my last reason... Dumbledore believes that it is harry. We really have no choice but trust the man... he's the epitemy of everything good in the world and if you can't trust him and his opinions, you might as well surrender Voldemort and the Death Eaters

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 351 to 400)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:14 am

Accio Book Six - Jun 9, 2004 11:11 am (#351 of 1448)
Sorry, I forgot to mention that my above post was in response to some of the people further back on the board that were giving evidence to why they think that Neville is STILL the prophesy boy.

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Lady Nagini - Jun 9, 2004 11:23 pm (#352 of 1448)

We really have no choice but trust the man... he's the epitemy of everything good in the world and if you can't trust him and his opinions, you might as well surrender Voldemort and the Death Eaters --Accio Book Six

Until OotP, yes, DD was the only voice in the novels whom we could trust, for the most part, unconditionally. However, once he revealed the prophecy to Harry, along with the long withheld knowledge about Voldemort's motivations for killing the Potters...he became unreliable. When it comes to whether or not Neville can still be the one to whom the prophecy refers, DD can no longer be trusted. There are a myriad of reasons why he would choose to hide the whole truth from Harry, the least of which is that he didn't want to get Harry's hopes up.

I still agree with your first two reasons, Accio, but the third is, unfortunately, no longer applicable...
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S.E. Jones - Jun 9, 2004 11:31 pm (#353 of 1448)

Let it snow!
There's misleading and then there's outright lying. Dumbledore has left out things, has told Harry straight out that he can't tell him things, but he's never outright lied to him. I think we can trust Dumbledore about the Prophecy. However, what will Neville do? Will Neville believe it was really supposed to be him? Will be think he can somehow make himself the one by going after Voldemort or something? Now there's where the story comes in if you ask me....

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Lady Nagini - Jun 9, 2004 11:36 pm (#354 of 1448)

Edited by Jun 10, 2004 12:37 am
We should move that discussion to the DD thread.

Back on track to Neville...It all depends on whether anyone (Harry) actually tells him about it. Why would he, if it no longer applies? What use would there be in telling more people about the prophecy?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 12:04 am (#355 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I think Harry will eventually tell his closest friends, firstly because JKR said he would in her last online chat, but secondly because I think he's going to need thier support to help him deal with the prophecy and its implications. I think Neville, as one of the six who went to the MoM, will be included in that group of "closest friends", though I don't think Harry will come right out and tell him that he was almost "the one". I think Neville will figure it out and then act on his own....

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Lady Nagini - Jun 10, 2004 12:26 am (#356 of 1448)

Edited by Jun 10, 2004 1:45 am
Hmm. I had some thoughts, but I think I should save a response for when I'm a tad more coherent (i.e. NOT 1:30 in the morning).

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Dumbledore - Jun 10, 2004 2:08 pm (#357 of 1448)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Sarah, why would Harry tell Ginny, Luna and Neville? Him telling Ron and Hermione is a give-in, by why tell them? He was opposed to them coming in the first place, and even now when they obviously have now become closer, why would he tell them his deepest secret, which pretty much explains everything in his life up until that point?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 2:11 pm (#358 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Because they are now part of the group. I'm not saying he won't tell Ron and Hermione first, but I definately think he'd tell the other three, or that they'd at least find out via Ginny. They went through a lot with him and for him. I mean, they could've all been killed for him, but they still went and stuck by him. I think that makes them part of the group and deserving, at least in Harry's mind if not theirs, to be let in on what's going on.

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Padfoot - Jun 10, 2004 2:13 pm (#359 of 1448)

Harry will tell Luna, Ginny and Neville especially if they grow closer to him during the next two books. Already they have shown they will help Harry along side Ron and Hermione.

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Hogs Head - Jun 10, 2004 8:10 pm (#360 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Re the Nagini and S.E. Jones dialogue about Neville and the Prophecy, I go back to the thing I stumbled onto a week or so ago. Although there are several factors mitigating against Neville overhearing the Prophesy when the spherical prophesy broke during the MoM battle, the text only says that Harry did not hear it. It never says the same about Neville. I personally doubt that Neville heard it if Harry couldn't hear it but . . .

Wouldn't that be a twist -- if Neville did hear the Prophecy and incorrectly (per Dumbledore's literal statements in OoP) or correctly (per some theorist on this Lexicon with whom I disagree) assumed that he was the object of the Prophecy? If Book 6 starts with Neville acting strangely, we might want to reexamine this possibility.

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Lady Nagini - Jun 10, 2004 8:38 pm (#361 of 1448)

I can see him hearing part of it (like Voldemort!) and assuming the wrong things, but he also knows that Harry is known as the savior of the WW. He might be confused, but I can't see him automatically thinking the prophecy is about him.

I'm not sure if that made sense.

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Julia. - Jun 10, 2004 9:02 pm (#362 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
If I may borrow from PS/SS...There are somethings you can't go through and not end up liking each other, a battle at the DoM is one of them. I'm sure Harry will tell the five who were there when he is ready.

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 11, 2004 8:44 am (#363 of 1448)

I don't think Harry will say anything to Neville. Harry didn't say anything about Neville's parent's condition to Ron and Hermoine because he promised Dumbledore he wouldn't. He didn't even tell Neville he knew. Likewise, I can see Harry keeping the secret of the prophesy from Neville. Harry's impulse control may be questionable, but he's a good secret keeper.

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Lady Nagini - Jun 11, 2004 8:55 am (#364 of 1448)

Well, that was before they went through a life-altering, death-defying experience together. I can see Harry telling Neville; I was opposed to it before, but he will tell Neville, Ginny, and Luna after Ron and Hermione find out.

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Julia. - Jun 11, 2004 9:25 am (#365 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Well said Lady Nagini. Life threatening experiences do have a way of changing things. I agree with you Diagon Nilly that Harry is a good secret keeper, but the secret here and Neville's secret are different. Harry kept the secret about Frank and Alice as a courtisy to Neville. As Dumbledore said, he had the right to let people know in his own way when he was ready. The same holds true for Harry about the prophecy. He will let Ron, Harry, Neville, Luna, Ginny and whoever else he chooses know about it in his own way, and when he is ready.

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Chris. - Jun 11, 2004 9:25 am (#366 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
He didn't tell Ron and Hermione of the Longbottom's condition because he gave his word to Dumbledore that he wouldn't. However, even if Dumbledore had let him, Harry would've wanted to let Neville tell them himself.

I hope he doesn't keep the Prophecy a secret from Ron and Hermione, even though they've kept secrets from him in the past. I hope he tells Neville, because I think it's important that Neville knows what could have been his future. Ginny and Luna are another case. They might want to know about the Prophecy, but Harry still considers Ginny too young. Maybe the realisation that nobody's safe, whatever age, will help him to break the news to Luna and Ginny.

Now we're talking about the friend's reactions to Harry's news, do you think that some of their reactions will be surprising?

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Lady Nagini - Jun 11, 2004 9:29 am (#367 of 1448)

Edited by Jun 11, 2004 10:30 am
Thanks, Julia.

I'm not sure Harry thinks of Ginny as "too young" anymore; I think it's mostly Ron who still feels that way. In any case, Hermione will get so fed up with the pair of them if Harry doesn't tell Ginny, it's safe to say that Ginny will find out...somehow...

The same way she found out what had been mentioned at the Order meeting. Wink

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Padfoot - Jun 11, 2004 9:31 am (#368 of 1448)

I doubt that Hermione will be that surprised. Neville will be the most surprised that he almost was the "One". I see him being the most emotional one to hear the news. Ginny, Ron and Luna will fall somewhere in between.

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fizzingwhizbees - Jun 14, 2004 9:34 pm (#369 of 1448)

I agree with the idea that Harry will probably tell Neville. He is after all a part of the prophecy. Harry now shares a bond with Neville in more than their experiences at the Ministry. It's been a growing connection since book one.

Neville will probably be shocked. He never had the greatest confidence in himself, though that's slowing changing. This will come as a great surprise to him. I think he'll accept it for what it says. Things turned out the way they did for certain reasons. (quick question. Did the Longbottoms get attacked before or after the Potters were attacked?) I'm not sure about Hermione. She'll probably become more worried about Harry. I was rereading POA and OOtP, and she seems to be more emotional than I remembered the first time. Ginny and Ron will probably feel the same way Hermione does. Luna on the other hand, I'm not sure about. She's an unpredictable character.

I was really happy to see Neville become closer to Harry and co. He's always been mentioned more so than other students at Hogwarts, and it was a matter of time before he emerged from the shadows. I'm looking forward to his role in their 6th year.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 14, 2004 10:38 pm (#370 of 1448)

The Longbottoms were attacked after the Potters. The Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr. were trying to find out information on Voldie's whereabouts after Voldie disappeared after Godric's Hollow. They thought that Frank Longbottom, who was an Auror, might have pertinent information.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 5:52 am (#371 of 1448)

Yeah, I think that Neville almost idolizes Harry... Harry is everything that Neville wants to be, and I think that he sees Harry as the one who will defeat Voldemort and avenge his parents' intellectual deaths. I think Harry will tell Neville, and Neville might be blown away by how close he came to being the one who would have to get rid of voldie if it was going to happen at all. He'll realize what a burden lies on Harry, feel partly responsible, and resolve himself to helping Harry in whatever way possible that he can.

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Liz - Jun 16, 2004 9:51 am (#372 of 1448)

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I think the Longbottoms were attacked after the Potters were killed because, I think it said somewhere that when the Longbottoms should have been safe(after Voldie died) that's when they were attacked.

Yep, I think since Neville showed so much improvement with the DA meetings, that Neville will probably hit a magical growthspirt, and show that he can be powerful in ways nobody thought possible.

Also Neville is going to have to get a new wand, maybe he'll get one that enhances his powers better.

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mooncalf - Jun 16, 2004 12:33 pm (#373 of 1448)

" A magical growth spurt" - what a lovely and appropriate phrase.

Yes, Neville's problem has always been a lack of confidence. As Neville's confidence grows, I think that we will find Neville developing powers that we, and he, never knew he had.
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haymoni - Jun 18, 2004 4:40 pm (#374 of 1448)

Wonder what Neville does all summer?

Maybe he'll try to contact Harry, Ron or Hermione over the summer to see what's what.

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Chris. - Jun 19, 2004 6:09 am (#375 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I don't think Neville and his grandmother just visit Frank and Alice once summer and Christmas. They may have several visits.

And homework probably takes up a lot of Neville's time seeing as he may not understand a lot of things.

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Tomoé - Jun 19, 2004 7:32 am (#376 of 1448)

Back in business
I hope Harry will remember to send him a card this summer.

As for how often Neville pay visit to his parents during summer, I would say once a week (or at least it was how often my mom went to see her sister and her mother when each of them were sick for a long period).

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Hogs Head - Jun 19, 2004 10:31 am (#377 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Sadly, guys usually don't think about sending other guys birthday cards until they are in their 30's. (Maybe guys in the U.K. are more thoughtful at an earlier age, though?) For better or worse, I view Harry as a "regular guy" -- except for the part about being a wizard of course.

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Julia. - Jun 19, 2004 6:34 pm (#378 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Oh! I would love to see Harry send Neville a birthday card, it would open up all sorts of interesting conversations between the two. "Hey, Harry, how'd you know it was my birthday?" sort of thing.

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Dumbly-dorr - Jun 19, 2004 8:10 pm (#379 of 1448)

Several (many) posts back their was something about Neville hearing the prophecy, which I don't think he could have heard it any better than Harry because he and Harry were side by side, but even if he did hear it he wouldn't have known what it meant. The prophecy mentioned parents who had defied Voldemort three times and Neville wouldn't know that.

Also, the comments recently have been about Neville blossoming as in OotP. Although, Neville has shown courage from SS. Remember when he threatened to fight HRH when they tried to sneak out? DD pointed out that that takes a great bit of courage, and I agree. I think it is even harder than standing up to your enemies. Poor Neville, though. It is difficult to grow and mature when you are constantly under the oppressiveness of someone else, ie. his grandmother telling him his whole life that he isn't as talented as his father and Snape being horrible to him every chance he got.

I've read on this thread before about Neville being a loner and having no close friends, but I remember reading about him, Dean, and Seamus being a group together. It was only mentioned once, probably because it isn't something that needs repeating, but it should that Neville also has a group of friends to hang around with.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 19, 2004 10:25 pm (#380 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Actually, Seamus and Dean are usually mentioned as a duo, as Ron and Harry are. Neville is mentioned by himself or as an "add on" to someone else's group. However, I think any and all of the Gryffindors are more than happy to have him.

I, too, would like to see Harry send Neville a birthday card. I agree it isn't something a "regular guy" would do, but Harry will have his mind on the prophecy this summer, which will no doubt include the fact that Neville was another possible prospect at one point in time, and he may remember that Neville's birthday is the same as his. Knowing how much he cherishes birthday cards (admittedly it's because he never recieved any until he was 13), he may indeed send one to his friend.

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haymoni - Jun 20, 2004 7:26 am (#381 of 1448)

Is Neville's birthday the same as Harry's? I thought the prophesy just said "at the end of July" - could be July 29, 30 or 31.

We haven't heard of Harry giving Ron or Hermione a birthday gift/card/whatever. The only gifts we've seen Harry give are at Christmas.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 20, 2004 11:39 am (#382 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Actually, the prophecy says "as the seventh month dies" which I would assume means the last day of July, giving both of them the same birthday. I admit that he hasn't given birthday cards before, but as Neville shares a birthday, loss of parents due to dark wizards, a prophecy (or almost), and was present in the room when Sirius died, Harry might think to send him a card....

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Liz - Jun 20, 2004 12:02 pm (#383 of 1448)

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Perhaps JKR will spread some light on the subject in the next books.

Maybe in a card now that Harry knows when Neville's birthday is.

What a brilliant idea S.E. Jones.

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 12:46 pm (#384 of 1448)

Back in business
Ron and Hermione give Harry gifts... does he ever give them birthday presents?

Yes, Harry does buy presents back! But I've never focused on their birthdays yet --there hasn't been room! AOL Chat,19 October 2000

So Harry do buy them birthday present, maybe not cards, as he is with them on September 19th (Hermione) and Mars 1st (Ron), but like Sarah said, Birthday cards are something important for Harry and I suppose he always give one with his presents.

Edit : as for Neville birthday, I do believe is born on July 31st or the choice between Harry and Neville wouldn't had been that important. I mean, if Neville was born on July 28th and Harry on July 31st, Voldemort could have ruled out Neville just because his birthday is to far away from the end of the seventh month compare to Harry's.

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Liz - Jun 21, 2004 4:41 pm (#385 of 1448)

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That would be a good question for JKR in an interview. Has someone seen this question in an interview?

I can see it now:

note this is not a real interview, or something like it exists*

Interviewer: JKR the fans would like to know when Neville Longbottoms' birthday is. Is it the same day as Harry Potter or another day?
And I expect the answer to be like*

JKR: Oh, well that would give to much away in the books to come so the answer can't be revealed.

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Madam Poppy - Jun 21, 2004 8:42 pm (#386 of 1448)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jun 21, 2004 9:43 pm
I've always thought that Neville is more important than we are led to believe. (JKR is sneaky) We tend to forget how many times he is mentioned in the books. More than any of the other "minor" characters.
While looking at JKR's new website, I was surprised to read her small comment about Neville . Look in Extra Stuff (mug), then Edits, then under Dean Thomas.
JKR says that she sacrificed Dean's life story for Neville's "which is more important to the central plot."

Poppy

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 9:36 pm (#387 of 1448)

Back in business
I did a chart on which I note the chapters where the students in Harry's year appear. Neville appear in 66 chapters and he's #5. Here's the top ten :

#1 Harry (134)
#2 Ron (126)
#3 Hermione (123)
#4 Draco (69)
#5 Neville (66)
#6 Seamus (46)
#7 Goyle (46)
#8 Crabbe (43)
#9 Dean (41)
#10 Parvati (32)

A lots of Gryffindors, but we can see four groups in the list, HRH with 123 to 134 chapters, around 50 chapters away from the #4. Draco and Neville, themselves 20 chapters away from Seamus, Dean, Crabbe and Goyle who are around ten to fifteen chapters away from Parvati and Lavender (#11, 28).

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Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 4:30 am (#388 of 1448)

Wow, very thorough. You must have been very patient, making that list. I too think that Neville will be important, but I don't know how exactly. My best bet is that he just becomes fiercly loyal to Harry. JKR has shown too many instances of Neville being brave to have him turn to the dark side and join the DEs.

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Czarina II - Jun 22, 2004 7:22 pm (#389 of 1448)

Tomoe, is there a place on this forum where you can place the entire list? It sounds interesting and you must have put a lot of work into it.

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Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 9:28 pm (#390 of 1448)

Back in business
Yes, of course, I'll put it in the JKR's notebook thread since I only did the students in Harry's year.

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Casey - Jun 23, 2004 10:12 am (#391 of 1448)

"JKR has shown too many instances of Neville being brave to have him turn to the dark side and join the DEs."

I agree. It's even stated in SS by Harry. After Malfoy tells Neville he's not brave enough to be in Gryffindor, Harry says, " The Sorting Hat chose you for Gryffindor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin." (p 218, SS) Neville has soooo much more to do before the series if finished.

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 2:40 pm (#392 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Everyone has been saying how Harry or Ron will be Headboy but I have to admit, I've started to like the idea that it will be Neville. His grandmother would be thrilled for him bringing glory to the family and it would stop people thinking he's just stupid Neville.

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Casey - Jun 30, 2004 9:22 am (#393 of 1448)

Edited by Jun 30, 2004 10:23 am
Awww...that would be good. Poor Neville.

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Kieran Burke - Jul 4, 2004 1:35 am (#394 of 1448)

I just had an interesting thought. Wouldn't it be great if Neville became head boy in his seventh year!

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Chris. - Jul 4, 2004 10:47 am (#395 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Er.. I just said that two posts ago and yes, it would be good for him.

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Nellie - Jul 8, 2004 4:33 am (#396 of 1448)

Attention intellectuals! I have been given a copy of "the unofficial guide to Harry Potter Book 5" and it's great! After much reading I found that they spotted something that leapt out at me when I read it. Neville says "I'm nobody" on the train when Luna asks who he is. "I'm Nobody" is a poem by Emily Dickinson (that much I knew), so I looked it up and this is the poem:

I'm nobody! Who are you? Are you nobody, too? Then there's a pair of us -- don't tell! They'd banish us, you know.

How dreary to be somebody! How public, like a frog To tell your name the livelong day To an admiring bog!

This is where I need some intellectual help.... Can anyone see anything in this poem that might shed some light on Master Longbottom? I guess it could be coincidence that the poem has the same name as Neville's comment, but it does include a reference to a frog (perhaps Trevor??)...

Any thoughts?

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Chris. - Jul 8, 2004 4:38 am (#397 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I think it refers to Neville and Luna being nobodys, always the "outisiders" as it were.

"They'd banish us, you know"

I'm worried!

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MrsGump - Jul 8, 2004 5:54 am (#398 of 1448)

The second stanza(?) "how dreary to be somebody" sounds like Harry. Maybe this was foreshadowing that Harry got chosen to be the "somebody" and Neville can happily be the "nobody" in the background from the prophocey.

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justme - Jul 8, 2004 6:58 am (#399 of 1448)

I think that if Neville were to ever learn what the prophecy said, he would be more than happy to be "nobody", as opposed to what Harry has had to go through

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 12:36 pm (#400 of 1448)

The poem does seem to refer to Harry and Neville's extremely contrasting lives. Do you think it was merely a coincidence? Although the frog ascription makes me think otherwise. Perhaps there are other references to poems?

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 401 to 450)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:15 am

Aud Duck - Jul 11, 2004 10:11 am (#401 of 1448)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think that Neville has lots of potential. McGonnagal herself said that all his spellwork lacks is a bit of confidence. (I know that that's the sort of thing teachers regularly say to their pupils, but somehow, I don't see McGonnagal saying things like that if they aren't true.) Neville has already shown in the DA that he can be excellent if he's determined enough. He doesn't have the natural capabilities that Hermione does, but I think that he's got enough courage and determination to make up for that. I think that Neville's biggest problem is that his grandmother wants him to be his father instead of himself. Her comment in St. Mungo's that Neville has none of his father's talent really shows what she's like. And she sent him to Hogwarts with his father's wand. Unlike the Weaselys, the Longbottoms have money(who else could afford Mimbulus Mimbletonia?). It was a conscious choice not to buy him his own wand, and probably indicative of how much Neville's being expected to live up to. The new wand should make a huge differece. I don't think JKR was trying to do anything deeply significant and symbolic by breaking Frank Longbottom's wand, but it marks a turning point for Neville. He'll be facing the world on his own. Incidentally, Neville reminds me a lot of Harry in terms of his strengths. Harry is not particularly bright or powerful either. He makes tons of mistakes that someone like Hermione would never make. What he has is guts and loyalty. That's what Neville's got, too.

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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 11:47 am (#402 of 1448)

Back in business
well said aud duck!

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Aud Duck - Jul 12, 2004 6:06 pm (#403 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Thanks. Smile

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drippan - Jul 15, 2004 6:14 am (#404 of 1448)

I'm new to this thread and just read a couple posts but would like to state my opinion of Neville.

I think Neville has the saddest part in the whole series.

1. Both parents in a psycho ward brought on by DE's.

2. He lives with his grandmother who believes that he is not a strong wizard. His other relatives think the same way.

3. The relatives are trying to compare Neville to his dad vice accepting Neville for who he is. This brings on low self esteem issue that we see.

4. Neville is always forgetting something, by mistake or by frustration of living in his father's footsteps and overly trying to hard.

Neville, unlike Harry, has a constant reminder of his folks, that of them still being alive!! Harry's parents are dead, gone forever. Yes, Harry does wish a relationship with his parents, but so does Neville! Neville, IMO, thinks constantly of his folks being in St. Mungo's. He is quite embarrassed by his parents' condition but he loves them with all his heart. This is seen most when his mom hands him the gum wrapper and his grandmother tells him to throw it aways because he already has enough of them. Instead, he pretends to throw it away and pockets it. It might only be a piece of trash to his grandmother, but to him, it's his entire world!

I think Neville has a more serious problem ahead of him: the Lestrange witch. I'm sure he believes Harry saying that LV is back at the end of GoF. This does not seem to phase him in the least. What does turn him around is that his mother and father's torturer is loose. This is the major turning point for Neville.

What got me worried is Neville's revenge! He is learning alot of DADA at a very rapid pace now that he has a reason to and that is to get LeStrange. Cut and dry. Bottom line.

Harry is no longer after LV for killing his parents. Yes, it still weighs heavy on him but now faced with the inevitable of "kill or be killed" reasoning outweighs getting revenge for his parents' death.

Neville worries me alot. Is he going to do something that is going to get himself killed? Don't forget, he is very brave (Gryfindor). I can see him sacrificing himself for what he truly believes in. And right now his belief is revenge.

DripPan

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haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 6:51 am (#405 of 1448)

He now has first hand experience at what "Crucio" can do.

I see our Mr. Longbottom becoming very serious about his studies (likewise for Harry) and he may not go after Bella until he thinks he is better prepared.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 15, 2004 9:33 am (#406 of 1448)

There is one reason, why I think that Bella won't kill Neville. Because I am sure he will get her. Of course you never know with JKR's plot twists, but I am pretty convinced that in the end Neville and Bella will face each other and Neville will be the winner.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 11:49 am (#407 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
DripPan, that sums up Neville Longbottom completely. Now, we just have to state his strengths and weaknesses, and we have a swot analysis on Neville Longbottom ready.

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drippan - Jul 15, 2004 7:17 pm (#408 of 1448)

Tornedo, "Now, we just have to state his strengths and weaknesses, and we have a swot analysis on Neville Longbottom ready."

Before OotP, I could have gave you a pretty good analysis of Neville's weak and strong points but now I can only give you one.

When Neville really sets his mind to something, nothing is going to get in the way. He did this in PS/SS when he tried to stop HRH from leaving the Gryfindor house. He didn't succeed but he did try to stop them with all that he had. He also got 10 pts for Gryfindor that helped them win the House Cup for this action.

When he found out of Lestrange's escape, he again has his mind set on revenging his parents' condition. He knew and still knows that in order to get her, he has got to become a stronger wizard than his dad and mom was. He has had a taste of what his parents went through and I think this will make him even have a stronger conviction on becoming a more powerful wizard. Bella Lestrange, if you are reading this, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Besides that, got to wait and see.

DripPan

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Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm (#409 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Thanks for the warning DripPan, I'll heed it.

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Hogs Head - Jul 16, 2004 4:37 am (#410 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Please, not a SWOT analysis, at least not by that name. Every time I get a "SWOT analysis, " I have to pay some simpering, self-styled "expert" a big fee for sorting common sense axioms into obvious categories. (The one in the Forum was free, which softens the shock of hearing that dreaded phrase, "SWOT analysis," but I'm still hyperventilating just a little.) The summary was good, however -- I'm just going to call it a Nevillegram instead.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 11:05 am (#411 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Whatever you say Hog, DripPan would be pleased.

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drippan - Jul 16, 2004 6:10 pm (#412 of 1448)

Tornedo, "Thanks for the warning DripPan, I'll heed it."

I always knew you were evil. That is why I am thinking of starting a knew thread about you!

Hog Heads, "Please, not a SWOT analysis, at least not by that name."

I thought maybe Tornedo mistyped "sweet" until you mentioned SWOT analysis. Boy, do I feel dumb! "S.W.O.T." stand for Strength, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (Google search is great!).

I wrote my "SWOT" analysis before I found out what it stood for. Now, after rereading it with the right definition, I am quite proud of it, thank you very much!

"I'm just going to call it a Nevillegram instead."

Nevillegram? NEVILLEGRAM? OMG, I GOT A NEVILLEGRAM!!! Well, I guess it's okay as long as I don't get a howler from Mrs. Weasley!

DripPan

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Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 7:38 pm (#413 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
I always knew you (Tornedo) were evil. That is why I am thinking of starting a knew thread about you! -- DripPan.

I'd feel honour.

Nevillegram? NEVILLEGRAM? OMG, I GOT A NEVILLEGRAM!!! Well, I guess it's okay as long as I don't get a howler from Mrs. Weasley! --DripPan

You have more possibility of recieving Howler from Neville's sweet (I repeat, sweet, not SWOT) Gran'.

Now, back to Neville...

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JK Powers - Jul 17, 2004 9:40 pm (#414 of 1448)

no relation
As my first post, I wanted to come straight to the Neville forum. I have finally finished reading everything (all 411 so far) and I wish to reopen the conversation regarding Neville being the actual object of the initial prophesy. There were several things mentioned throughout this post to give further evidence to what I assumed as soon as I read the prophecy. The rememberball, Neville's Uncle testing him, Gram's crying, the possibility of Neville suffering from a memory charm his whole life, and Neville's recent increase in powers, to name a few. I read a while ago in an HP post, about Harry's power growing as LV's power grew, but Neville's power has seen increases much more significantly as LV grew in power. His skills in Herbology, as LV was living in the woods surviving on plants, through the full blossoming of his powers after LV was reincarnated. My thoughts feel choppy at this point, which is why I want to invite a resurgence into the topic to help me formulate what I thought when I first heard that Neville was the possible object of the prophecy. "That's it, Neville is going to save the WW, the same way he saved Gryffindor his first year, he's going to defect Voldemort!"

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S.E. Jones - Jul 17, 2004 9:58 pm (#415 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I seriously doubt Neville is going to save the Wizarding world. The books are called "Harry Potter and the..." not "Neville Longbottom and the...". Harry is the main protagonist here, not Neville. To have Neville take on the full responisibility of defeating the main antagonist would be anti-climatic and would deminish Harry's role. However, I could see him somehow supporting Harry's role, backing Harry and helping in some major way (not taking on Voldemort himself but perhaps undertaking some major task to help set Harry right in front of Voldemort in Book 7). In that way, Neville is crucial but not the crucial character.....

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JK Powers - Jul 17, 2004 10:47 pm (#416 of 1448)

no relation
I understand the "Harry Poter and the..." argument, but wouldn't the divine purpose and surprise ending be more unanticipated if it turns out that everyone has been grooming Harry for the task of defeating Voldemort, and Harry passes that preparation on to the DA and he becomes the general leading the battle against the Death Eaters. Neville, as a soldier, could have the lucky blow to strike down Voldemort, maybe when Harry is being attacked, maybe when Harry has fallen, maybe in a rage, or even by accident. Neville doesn't even expect to do anything right, and he is constantly surprising everyone, in every book.

He also ends up suspended from something in every book... what's that about?

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S.E. Jones - Jul 17, 2004 10:56 pm (#417 of 1448)

Let it snow!
It would still undermine Harry's (the main protagonist's) role in the series if Neville defeated Voldemort. That's not a surpise ending, it's bad storytelling. And JKR is not a bad storyteller. Again, I could see him being one of the crucial characters needed to get Harry where he needs to be to fight Voldemort in the final book, or even help stand Harry up at some crucial moment, but not taking on the crucial task of destroying the main antagonist....

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Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 2:52 am (#418 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree with Sarah.

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drippan - Jul 18, 2004 3:45 am (#419 of 1448)

JK POWERS, "Harry's power growing as LV's power grew, but Neville's power has seen increases much more significantly as LV grew in power."

Got to disagree with you.

Neville's Herbology score is because he is good at it. What got him to stopped HRH in SS/PS is the kids themselves told him earlier in the book to stick up for himself. H/Hr/Neville all lost 50 each for being out of bed. Neville was not going to let that happen again.

His Grandma is really worried about Neville's powers so she tells her son (Neville's uncle). The uncle keeps testing him just to get a little magic out of him. Gran also sends him a remembrall because he keeps forgetting things.

Another counterpoint is that if his power increases with LV, then why isn't he stronger at the beginning of OotP or when he joined DA? He was doing all types of crazy magic in DA. LV has been getting stronger throughout the summer and fall. We just see the same old Neville until the one event that will trigger him off.

That one event is the escape of his parents' torturer, Bella Lestrange.

The only connection between Neville and LV was ruined long time ago when LV went after Harry and not Neville.

JK Power, "That's it, Neville is going to save the WW, the same way he saved Gryffindor his first year, he's going to defect Voldemort!"

You said it yourself "He saved Gryffindor" but remember at the same time that Harry was saving the WW by stopping LV from getting the SS/PS.

Neville will play an important roll. He is now part of the "DoM Wrecking Crew" and is becoming stronger. When he gets his own wand, it will be him getting his own strength vice following in the footsteps of his father.

IMO, the breaking of his father's wand is probably the best thing that could have happened to Neville. He will finally become his own man. I think that if he would have kept the old wand, he would have ended up just like his folks or dead. He knows that he has to become stronger than both his folks ever were and he now he will have that chance.

DripPan

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Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 10:38 am (#420 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree with DripPan.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 10:54 am (#421 of 1448)

I agree with Tornedo.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 11:18 am (#422 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Thanks for the agreement Luke.

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drippan - Jul 18, 2004 4:45 pm (#423 of 1448)

Thanks for agreeing Tornedo and thanks for agreeing with Tornedo's agreeing Luke!

Now, about Neville!

Will Neville go after Bella Lestrange the first chance he gets? I'm not talking him leaving school to hunt her down but if he finds out where she is, will he go?

Right now my mind has mixed feeling that can be argued in both directions but would like other peoples input before I make up my mind (or what's left of it after reading the 'ship thread)!

DripPan

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S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 4:50 pm (#424 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Will Neville and Harry together go after her would be a better question. She helped torture Neville's parents into insanity, but she also is most directly responsible for Sirius's death. Neville knows that as he was in the room when Sirius died. Would he enlist Harry's help, if he found out just how close Harry and Sirius were, if he knew where Bella was?

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Ozymandias - Jul 18, 2004 4:52 pm (#425 of 1448)

Nothing beside remains...
I think that if Neville kills Bella for revenge he's no better than the DEs are. I think he'll get her, but it'll be in battle. I just can't see Neville hunting someone down with the intention of murder, even if that person did torture his parents.

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JK Powers - Jul 18, 2004 9:29 pm (#426 of 1448)

no relation
I can see Harry going to Neville to pass along the information of thier possibly shared prophecy before I see Neville reaching out to Harry.

I think that the two will be aligned and working together, possibly allowing time for Ron and Hermione to pursue their relationship. Or, the threesome could become a foursome for the last two books.

Neville hasn't opened up to anyone about his parents, although he did acknowledge to HRH that they must know. When harry comes to him with the prophecy, Neville may finally open up, allowing more backstory to come to light, from Neville's perspective.

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The giant squid - Jul 19, 2004 12:21 am (#427 of 1448)

I don't see Neville going off alone, but I can see him insisting on going along with Harry if he finds out where Bella is.

Neville's claim on her is at least as great as Harry's, and, sadly, I have a feeling Neville would find it in himself to do a proper Crucio on Bellatrix. A little poetic justice, if you will.

"Hello, my name is Neville Longbottom. You destroyed my parents. Prepare to die." Wink

--Mike

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2004 4:15 am (#428 of 1448)

Love it, Mike!

I could see Neville studying very hard so that he will be prepared the next time he runs into Bella, but I don't see him looking for her.

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virgoddess1313 - Jul 19, 2004 7:53 am (#429 of 1448)

I know that given the situation Neville has more of a right than anyone to go after Belltrix, but I just don't see that happening. For one thing, that seems a little cold-blooded for one of the "good guys". Killing her in a duel or in a battle is one thing, going after her specifically looking to murder her in another one altogether. I can't see J.K.R. doing that, or even Neville as a character.

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drippan - Jul 19, 2004 4:12 pm (#430 of 1448)

Okay, after reading everyone's ideas, here's mine on Neville.

A young kid who has been beat down all his life and has low self-esteem. Is constantly reminded on how great a wizard and witch his parents were and how come he does not have their powers. Who, when he sets his mind to something, does not quit. Who is currently learning strong magic to accomplish one thing. Who is downright angry about his parents but does not talk about it (even to his friends who already know) because he is embarassed.

Would he do it? Sure he would! He has alot of bottled up anger that he is not sharing. He is not sharing what is going on inside himself with his grandmother (the bubble gum wrapper feelings and hiding it from her) or his friends. He is quite a loner in this.

Would JKR make Neville into a "cold-blooded" killer? Probably if you have Neville hunt her down and stabbed her in the back, then, no, she would not do that.

Would Neville hunt her down, face her face to face, then, yes, she can do that.

The giant squid said it best ""Hello, my name is Neville Longbottom. You destroyed my parents. Prepare to die." In "The Princess Bride", the guy who made that statement tract down his father's killer for years. When he met him, he attacked him face to face.

DripPan
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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 4:22 pm (#431 of 1448)

I don't see that in a heroic fantasy story, a character seeking revenge for a parents' death/something worse than death is cold-blooded. Neville might track down Bellatrix, thinking he will give her a chance to surrender, but assuming she probably wouldn't and she would die in a duel.

I'm not saying I think this is likely, but it would get around the "cold-blooded killing" problem... in my opinion.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 4:47 pm (#432 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Or could he perhaps track her down with the intent of capturing her for Azkaban?

I still think this plan, if it ever were to happen, would include Harry who watched her kill the only thing close to a parent he has, and Neville would think to include him in it, should he learn of Harry and Sirius's relationship....

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drippan - Jul 19, 2004 6:04 pm (#433 of 1448)

S.E., "Neville would think to include him (Harry) in it, should he learn of Harry and Sirius's relationship...."

Think so? What will happen to Neville's mind once he learns about the prophecy?

He going to start thinking that could have been me and have a couple of reactions:

1) Poor Harry and have symphathy for him.

2) Hold it in so as not to show his emotions so not to upset anyone.

3) Accept it and just get on with his life.

Can't see option 3. He is to emotional for that (embarasses easily, shows very little confidence in things he does).

Option 1: Have sympathy for Harry? Can't see that with all that he knows what Harry's been through and his being the teacher in D.A. Neville is using him to gain strength because he knows Harry is strong in wizardry. He's thinking Harry lost a godfather but it's not the same as my real parents. Besides, Harry has his own problems and I'm not going to involve him....

Option 2 is my pick. Not once does he share emotions. He keeps everything inside, he feels embarassed by his parents condition and him being not a great wizard like them, and with this all around his low self esteem brought on by his relatives.

He's not going to share his plan with Harry because Harry has enough problems. Is he going to share it with Ron or Hermione? Nope. He might share it with Ginny but I really don't know their relationship since GoF dance.

He's going to keep it to himself and go after Lestrange......

Tornedo asked for a SWOT analysis. SWOT means strength, weaknesses, opportunity and threat.

Strength: Becoming more powerful and getting his own wand. When sets mind to do something, does not quit.

Weakness: When sets mind to do something, does not quit. Very emotional when it comes to his parents.

Opportunity: Nobody keeps an eye on Neville. Who are his friends? Who keeps an eye on him? Does he have a chance of finding out where Bella is? With a slip from DA or OotP, he can figure it out.

Threat: Nobody is thinking Neville as a threat, especially Bella who stated she wanted Neville. She stated that Neville's grandmother is used to losing family members and what's one more. This is after Neville yells at her and keeps defying her.

Yeah, Neville is on a mission, even if it means death to him..... He's not out to prove anything. He's out to punish the person who has made his life miserable.

DripPan

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Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 7:11 pm (#434 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
DripPan, he has another strength you have missed; he has a first-hand of being in a battle with DEs. He has also faced the Crucio. He now knows how much pain his parents went through. That would strengthen his resolution even more. Thatks for the SWOT Drip, I think you did a preety good job. Take 5 points.

And I think after hearing the Prophecy, Neville will see thatt Harry's life has been more miserable than his has been and would probably tell something more about his parents.

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The giant squid - Jul 19, 2004 10:00 pm (#435 of 1448)

I may not have explained myself as well s I'd wanted, earlier. I don't think Neville will try to hunt Bella down. What I do see is Neville realizing that he may come in contact with her again, probably soon, and working hard to prepare for that meeting. He may not be out for revenge, but I can see him working toward justice.

--Mike

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 19, 2004 11:30 pm (#436 of 1448)

I agree with the Giant Squid, if only, because I think hunting down Bellatrix is nearly impossible for Neville. How should he do this? Considering that she can apparate, she can be quasily everywhere, even outside of Britain. Or she can change her lair regularly.

But I agree that he wants to fight her, and will probably train even more, if they ever meet again (which I am sure they will).

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 2:24 am (#437 of 1448)

I think Neville knows that there are fates worse than death.

I would be highly disappointed if Neville settled for "merely killing" Bellatrix...

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drippan - Jul 20, 2004 2:33 am (#438 of 1448)

Well, at least we all agree that JKR must let Neville get Bellatrix Lestrange!

Maybe he can drop a piano on her head........Just a suggestion.

DripPan

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 2:39 am (#439 of 1448)

A single piano wouldn't do the trick, since Bella would just blast it out of the way. Now... a dozen piani, dropped just so...

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Courtney22 - Jul 20, 2004 2:08 pm (#440 of 1448)

Mike nice Princess Bride reference Smile

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Padfoot - Jul 20, 2004 2:17 pm (#441 of 1448)

Yes, I just love The Princess Bride too.

I do not see Neville going out of his way to find Bella, but I do see them in a duel. And Neville will triumph of course. I think he will have to wait for book 7 and keep increasing his skill with magic first. Neville might be tempted to Crucio Bella, but he will have as much luck with that as Harry did. I see Bella acting foolishly and assuming Neville is an annoyance but not a danger. Then Neville will kill her off, probably after he is hurt (not killed).

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timrew - Jul 20, 2004 2:18 pm (#442 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
drippan: Maybe he can drop a piano on her head........Just a suggestion.

And then Neville bursts into the old Frank Sinistra song......"I did it Steinways!"

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Padfoot - Jul 20, 2004 2:19 pm (#443 of 1448)

Tim, *groan* LOL.

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Hogs Head - Jul 20, 2004 3:41 pm (#444 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Timrew -- on the subject of "Poster of the Month" which I tried to raise the other day, we'd have to name you as "Perpetual All-Star Poster." Keep the good humor coming.

On the subject of Neville (going out on a limb here), I think he will be a very important character in Books 6 and 7.

Okay, a little further on the limb -- I think JKR has purposely avoided having the current era of good guys kill the bad guys. She once said that some older Aurors were for a time allowed to use the forbidden curses, but that has not been revived (so far) in the storyline.

I candidly think we will continue to see a rather strong anti-violence theme emerge. So, I doubt Neville will be killing anyone. I rather think Bellatrix will be wrapped up in several layers of unbreakable silly-string or already-been-chewed chewing gum or something like that, and find herself in a renovated Azkaban, guarded perhaps by emancipated house-elves or what-not. At least the prisoners will fare better at the dinner table.

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drippan - Jul 20, 2004 5:13 pm (#445 of 1448)

Hogs Head, "I candidly think we will continue to see a rather strong anti-violence theme emerge."

Didn't JKR say that there was going to be more deaths? I take this a meaning both side......

Just wondering

Also, with JKR's statement and after Cedric's and Sirius' deaths, would she stop with another character?

Neville could be one of the one who dies....anybody think of that besides me.

He goes after Bellatrix, kills her then Voldemort kills Neville for taken Bella out.....

Poof, no more Neville.....

Yeah, more deaths mean more deaths.......JKR is not joking around, IMO, about this matter.

DripPan

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Hogs Head - Jul 20, 2004 6:13 pm (#446 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
As Archie Bunker once said, "Faith, hope and charity. And the greatest of these is . . . violence."

Death, even homicidal death can make a very powerful anti-violence statement, especially when properly portrayed in fictional literature and cinema. To wit, many of the excellent Coen brothers movies make strong anti-violence, anti-crime statements even though they are filled with what sometimes may seem to be gratuitous violence and crime, e.g., Blood Simple, Fargo, Miller's Crossing, The Man Who Wasn't There, etc., or even Tarrantino's movies -- Reservoir Dogs, We Three Kings (was that the title?), Pulp Fiction, etc. Many of these are so violent they make you shudder but, while you're shuddering, you are compelled to think (unless you're also a psychopathic serial killer), "Why are they doing this - this isn't right?" And I think the same is also true, albeit on a more Disney-fied scale (and I mean that as the best of compliments), for JKR. Her principal characters abhor violence, and it is shown as a tool of first resort for weakminded and evil people. The "good guys" only use violence (like the Aurors of old) when there is no other way to stop the bad guys.

I predict that Harry and to some extent Neville will show us a clever, perhaps self-denying means for defeating their enemies. While Bellatrix may be wrapped in impervious silly-string, etc., Voldemort will have to go, i.e., "take the long walk" by some means. I think he will end up zapping himself, though, maybe with the delayed recoil of the original curse he tried to unleash on infant Harry. Then Harry will have carried out his mission and will still be guilt-free. And yes, in literature and cinema, heroes and/or their heroic sidekicks often die to defeat the evil anti-hero, so Neville and/or Harry might also take the walk. Many on this Forum have suggested that as a possible outcome for either or both.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 6:44 pm (#447 of 1448)

A couple of comments:

1. I really don't think JKR is that anti-violent - she has created a black-and-white world, and in such a world, there really isn't anything wrong with killing the bad guys. I'm hoping she maintains internal consistency. And remember, there is a difference between killing a villain by stabbing him/her in the back, and killing them in a duel.

2. I really hope Book 7 doesn't end with a Spiderman ending - as in, the ending where:

...and then, as Voldemort fired the curse at Harry, Harry jumped out of the way. The curse hit a mirror, flew back at Voldie, and killed him.

3. Just one more comment is that Voldemort and the Death Eaters are not really "anti-heroes". An anti-hero is a dark hero - someone the readers root for who isn't a traditional hero. There isn't really such an archetype in HP.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 7:25 pm (#448 of 1448)

Anti-hero - Snape - possibly?

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 7:29 pm (#449 of 1448)

Until book five, I would have said Snape was an anti-hero - but his actions with regard to the Occlumency class after Harry went into the Pensieve have pushed him into the "villain" category in my mind - but he's definately the closest thing.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 7:46 pm (#450 of 1448)

Luke E.A. Lockhart my comment is on the Snape thread.

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:20 am

The giant squid - Jul 20, 2004 11:48 pm (#451 of 1448)

...and then, as Voldemort fired the curse at Harry, Harry jumped out of the way. The curse hit a mirror, flew back at Voldie, and killed him.


I would be very unhappy at an ending like this. Not so much because of its "Spider-Man-ness", but because it's too reminiscent of how Harry got the scar... Plus, with all her talk about choices, it would really be a let down to have an "oops" ending.

As for Neville (what? Talk about Neville in the Neville thread? insanity!), you're all probably right in that Neville probably won't be a killer in the end. The comment about wrapping her in sillystring or gum sparked a neuron--remember the gum wrappers?

Paulus: I like the word "piani"... Smile

--Mike

P.S. don't encourage me on the movie references...I've got a million of 'em. Wink

contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 1:21 pm (#452 of 1448) [/b]
The bounce back mirror curse would be horrible. Reminiscent of Stephen King's "The Stand". Read the whole thing and he used a Nuke at the end, after all the "magical" calling. It was horrible.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 21, 2004 8:31 pm (#453 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Mirror? Well, this could actually be true, "7 trials from PS may be the 7 books". But that's for a different thread. I actually love the Idea.

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drippan - Jul 22, 2004 12:44 am (#454 of 1448)

Or Neville could carry a bucket, trip, and accidently throw water on LV.

After all, it worked on the witch in the "Wizard of Oz"!

I can hear LV now, "I'm melting. Melting......"

DripPan

P.S. Anybody notice how I got Neville thread back to Neville......

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timrew - Jul 22, 2004 2:47 pm (#455 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
And then all the Death Eaters start dancing and singing......

Hey-Ho, The Dark Lord's dead!
Lord Voldemort, The Dork, Dork Lard,
Hey-Ho, Lord Voldemort is dead!

Sorry for taking the thread off the subject of Neville again!

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drippan - Jul 22, 2004 3:48 pm (#456 of 1448)

and they all go back to the Great Wizard,

Ron will get a brain

Hermione will get a heart

Draco will get courage

And Harry will get a home!!!

The End.

Hey, who needs book 6 & 7.....JKR, go ahead and stop writting!!

DripPan

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ShelterGirl - Jul 22, 2004 4:27 pm (#457 of 1448)

DripPan-

"Ron will get a brain"

I spewed. I did. You and Tim should never post so closely together.

ShelterGirl

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thetheatre62442 - Jul 23, 2004 8:34 am (#458 of 1448)

That was brilliant. Enough said. Smile

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timrew - Jul 23, 2004 2:33 pm (#459 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I just can't picture Harry in a pair of ruby slippers, clicking them together and saying, 'There's no place like home, there's no place like home.......'

Sorry, moderators, this is still off the subject of Neville. To put in my two knuts (btw, I pronounce it, 'nuts'), I don't think Neville will ever end up evil. His parents were tortured into madness by the DEs; so the only way I see him joining them is as a spy, a la Professor Snape.

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drippan - Jul 23, 2004 2:58 pm (#460 of 1448)

But I can picture Prof. Flitwick singing, "We represent the lollipop guild, the lollipop guild.........We wish to welcome you to Munchkinland"

But about Neville, I can't even see him turning into a spy.

1) He's still a kid..

2) Bella Lestrange would rather kill him or torture him...

3) I don't think his intelligence level is that high...

Just throwing my 2 k-nuts out there......

DripPan

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Catherine - Jul 23, 2004 3:03 pm (#461 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
Maybe this belongs in the PoA movie thread, but didn't Harry steal a lollipop from Neville in the movie?

Oh, what WOULD the Lollipop Guild say about THAT!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 5:06 pm (#462 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Tim? Careful where u put your, hmm, (btw, I pronounce it, 'nuts') Draco may have a use for them. :-)

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haymoni - Jul 23, 2004 5:17 pm (#463 of 1448)

I say nuts, also.

It is totally illogical that Neville would be a spy. Unless he had a pair of Omnioculars and was sitting in a tree outside the DE "hangout".

Ala Romper Room - "I see Voldy and Wormy and Crabbe and Goyle!"

Did I just date myself???

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 5:22 pm (#464 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Came real close! Neville is no more a spy than I am...and I'm not telling.

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Catherine - Jul 23, 2004 5:33 pm (#465 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
Catherine sticks her fingers in her ears about confessing age and still hums a song that sounds like "We welcome you from the Lollipop Guild!"

There IS a very bad story about this song, and our renovated house, but I'll save it for a "Butterbeer" thread!

*sees people dancing and hears "Lollipop Guild!"*

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 5:57 pm (#466 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
" I have gone temporarily deaf and haven't any idea what you said, Harry," said Dumbledore, twiddling his thumbs and staring at the ceiling.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 23, 2004 7:13 pm (#467 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Well, um, d'you think Neville will be a head-boy? I know this is a dumb question, but it has atleast brought the thread back to Neville.

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megfox - Jul 23, 2004 8:02 pm (#468 of 1448)

My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Yes, please bring this thread back on topic, or one of us mods will be forced to! This thread has been very off-topic all day. Also, one small note to TwinklingBlueEyes, please spell the word "you" with three letters - we try to refrain from netspeak here (the ocassional LOL is acceptable, however! )

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Ozymandias - Jul 24, 2004 2:12 am (#469 of 1448)

Nothing beside remains...
Yay, Tornedo! I'm glad someone else thinks that Neville is HB material. I've thought that since SS, when he stands up to HRH. (and wins the House Cup for doing it!) I was so dissapointed when he wasn't named prefect. I'm just afraid that Ron's vision in the Mirror of Erised will come true and poor Neville won't get his chance.

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drippan - Jul 24, 2004 2:29 am (#470 of 1448)

megfox, "Yes, please bring this thread back on topic, or one of us mods will be forced to! This thread has been very off-topic all day."

Please don't hate us because we're happy! Smile

Tornedo, "Well, um, d'you think Neville will be a head-boy?"

No! That'll be Harry's job. I think head boy is a leadership role and Neville has not shown any skills in that area what so ever.

Here's my theory on what is going to happen to Neville, keeping in mind the major theme of the book:

Neville is going to die by making a bad choice (sorry everyone). He is not the most intelligent person when it comes to brains but he is learning alot of powerful magic. Put this with his "won't stop when his mind is made up" and his hatred of Lestrange, this spells disaster in my book.

DripPan

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2004 9:33 am (#471 of 1448)

I still want to know how Head Boy/Girl is decided before I make a decision on who it will be.

When is the next Chat????

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Professor V - Jul 24, 2004 9:35 am (#472 of 1448)

Much to my everlasting sorrow, I agree.

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2004 9:35 am (#473 of 1448)

I still want to know how Head Boy/Girl is decided before I make a decision on who it will be.

When is the next Chat????

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Sir Tornado - Jul 24, 2004 11:11 am (#474 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Head Prefects (which, I presume is same as Head Boy/Girl) are decided, (atleast in my school) in their last year at the school, who are responsible, study hard-- not only to get good marks but to gain Knowledge(In other words, no swots)-- who excel in extra-curricular activities(sports, etc.) who listen to teachers and spend sinless 5 years in school(no pranks allowed). Plus, the popularity of student is taken into account. Looks a tough job to me. I'll probably miss it on the 'no pranks' part. Well, this is what a friend of mine (who's mother is a teacher in my school) told me. I don't know what is done in the UK. Just ask a Headmaster of a 1000 year old school. To get a good idea, read some of P.G Wodehouse's school stories. Has Neville got all these things? He hasn't got even one. Hermione? Yeah most of them. Harry? All of them.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2004 4:47 pm (#475 of 1448)

Tornedo,
"swots"?

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S.E. Jones - Jul 24, 2004 8:34 pm (#476 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Well, the thing is, we know James made it to Head Boy, wasn't a prefect, got into trouble OFTEN, and was rather on the arrogant side until his seventh year, so at least the part about the "sinless 5 years in school(no pranks allowed)" isn't true of Hogwarts kids, or at least isn't weighed as heavily as the other qualities, if that is how they might be chosen....

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Julia. - Jul 24, 2004 9:35 pm (#477 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Do we know for sure that James was never a prefect? We know that he wasn't one in his fifth year, but could he have been in his sixth year?

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S.E. Jones - Jul 24, 2004 11:07 pm (#478 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Good question. It is my understanding that you don't re-instate new prefects each year but just keep them on (5th to 7th year) till they graduate, are made Head Boy/Girl, or they do something to warrant taking the privelage away, i.e. once someone is made a prefect they stay one until one of those things happens. If that's true then James wouldn't have been a prefect in his sixth. However, I don't think you need to be a prefect to be eligible for Head Boy/Girl, just have certain qualities. If that's true, then Neville wouldn't have to be a prefect, and could still potentially have time to improve and shine in his seventh year as Head Boy....

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Sir Tornado - Jul 25, 2004 2:20 am (#479 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Tornedo, "swots"? --Sussuro

Sussuro, a 'swot' is the one who achieves success in exams by just mugging up everything and doesn't really understand much about the subject.

Why was James the Headboy? Well, it is not always possible to have all qualities I mentioned some posts ago. In fact, I believe it is really hard to be both popular and be 'sinless'. It may also have something to do with other students. Look at James' classmates. Snape, Peter, Sirius & Remus. We know most Slytherins went to Dark side. James was the most popular Marauder. Remus, well, he's a werewolf. He wouldn't have enough time because of his transformations. So, James. Or, may be DD liked James. Actually, I'd love to see either Neville or Harry as Head Boy. They've had miserable lives till now. Give those two boys something atleast.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 25, 2004 5:15 am (#480 of 1448)

Could DD have made James head boy for "saving" Snape's life?

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Steve Newton - Jul 25, 2004 5:22 am (#481 of 1448)

Librarian
Someone asked what is a 'SWOT.' My understanding is that it is a way of looking at problems. You look at your Strengths, Weaknesses, and your Opporunities and Threats. If you understand all of these then you can make a good decision about what action you should take.

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 25, 2004 3:14 pm (#482 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
From my trusty Little Oxford English Dictionary....

Swot...slang. 1. (verb) work hard, especially at books. 2. (noun) person who works hard, especially at learning; hard work or study. 3. swot up study hurriedly or for particular occasion.

Hermione is a swot, but everyone had to swot up for their OWLs.

Is Neville a swot? Probably not, unless it involves herbology. Remember the library book Crouch Jnr gave him. I wonder what Nev knows about Moody/Crouch Jnr? Can we assume that all the students know he had something to do with Voldemort? Do they know he was young Barty? Can you imagine how weird that felt for Neville when he remembers the Crucio class. I bet he still doesn't know he was being used when he was given the book afterwards.

Oooh, I'm just shuddering thinking about that chapter. What a maliciously cunning slimeball young Barty was. I was totally taken in by him because I liked him a lot by that chapter in my first read.

Do you think Neville contemplated his brush with an evil Death-eater over the summer holidays? Did that help to strengthen his character before OoP began?

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Czarina II - Jul 25, 2004 5:41 pm (#483 of 1448)

I think Neville will become a prefect in seventh year when Ron becomes the Head Boy. I don't think Harry will be Head Boy not because he doesn't have the qualities (he does, though he is not very popular with everyone), but because Dumbledore doesn't want to burden him with anything else. Harry, being the Saviour-of-the-Wizarding-World, does not also need a bunch of useless school titles. It would be akin to one student getting all the scholarships, awards, and titles in their last year of high school. While that certainly happens (unfortunately) in real life, I don't think JKR is going to do that. But while Harry has had his role to fulfill since he was one, or at least since PS, Ron and Neville have yet to do so. Neville has always been a bit of a loner, so he would never be prefect quality until OoP. Now he participates more with other students, has more confidence in his studies, and I think more people like him and they no longer make fun of him, except for Malfoy and company.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 26, 2004 1:52 am (#484 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
Well, this doesn't belong to this thread but I'm replying to Czarina's post.

I don't think Harry will be Head Boy not because he doesn't have the qualities (he does, though he is not very popular with everyone), but because Dumbledore doesn't want to burden him with anything else. Harry, being the Saviour-of-the-Wizarding-World, does not also need a bunch of useless school titles. --Czarina.

I don't agree with that. Being a head-boy would mean a lot to Harry because his father was a head-boy. DD knows that Harry was disappointed on not being selected as a prefect; courtesy a certain painting hanging in GP12. He won't disappoint Harry again. There is no doubt that Harry deserves to be a Head-boy more than either Ron or Neville. Come to think of it, what has Harry got that he really wanted? Absolutely nothing. Fame, Tri-Wizard, being Savourer of WW; he didn't want anything. He did not get any Parents, lost a Godfather, and lost a Prefects badge due to 'other' responsibilities and is not likely to be a Quidditch captain. The boy deserves something.

BTW, you could argue the same points in Neville's favour too; life hasn't been kind to him either. But JKR could 'cure' his parents in book 7 and give HB badge to Harry.

Ron, well, he's got a very happy life of his own. He's often jealous of Harry; but as they say, "Grass always looks greener on the other side."

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drippan - Jul 26, 2004 2:36 am (#485 of 1448)

Tornedo, "Ron, well, he's got a very happy life of his own. He's often jealous of Harry; but as they say, "Grass always looks greener on the other side." "

Didn't Dorothy think the same thing in the Wizard of Oz? Thought there would be a better place over the rainbow?

Wait, we already did the Wizard of Oz bit.......

Forget I wrote this,

DripPan

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drippan - Jul 26, 2004 2:51 am (#486 of 1448)

Czarina II, "I think Neville will become a prefect in seventh year when Ron becomes the Head Boy."

I know we don't know enough about the Prefect/Head Boy selection method but I assume that if your a Prefect and made Head Boy, that you are still a Prefect for your house. When Percy was Head Boy, there was no mention of another Prefect being selected.

Now, there are possibly certain circumstances where Head Boy doesn't have to be a Prefect (James Potter), what they are, we don't know. Just like there are probably circumstances that can get you fired as a Prefect.

Keeping Head Boy position away from Harry because he will be to busy will be doing the same thing that happened in OotP. IMO, DD treated Harry "too special" and this got Harry into serius trouble.

DripPan

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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 5:34 am (#487 of 1448)

Librarian
I was reading OOTP last night and noticed that when Moody shows Harry the picture of the original Order that he instantly recognized Alice Longbottom because she looked exactly like Neville. (Obviously, he should have said that Neville looked exactly like Alice.) It is always said that Harry looks exactly like his father, except for his mother's eyes. I wonder if Neville's eyes are just like his fathers. It would sort of make Neville and Harry reverse in a way. I'm not sure what point I am making but it did seem curious.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 9:07 am (#488 of 1448)

How about the point that Neville is Harry's twin and has been transfigured to look like Alice. OOps, shouldn' said that.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 29, 2004 8:52 pm (#489 of 1448)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Apparently, today July 30, is Neville's birthday. It's on JKR's site. So Neville is one day older than Harry. What is that quote from the prophesy? "the one with the power will be born as the month wanes? ends? dies?" Not to be silly but perhaps that prophesy was very literal about when "he" would be born and the birth date is all important. Had he been born one day later....

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 8:57 pm (#490 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
'How about the point that Neville is Harry's twin and has been transfigured to look like Alice. OOps, shouldn' said that.'

Merlin's BEARD! Is time for another butterbeer, without the "butter".

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 29, 2004 9:00 pm (#491 of 1448)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Twins born two days apart? could happen, could happen:-)

But seriously, no, I don't think so.

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Julia. - Jul 29, 2004 9:14 pm (#492 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Well in that case, Happy Brithday Neville! Party in the Gryffindor common room! *pulls out butterbeer and passes it around*

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S.E. Jones - Jul 29, 2004 10:33 pm (#493 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Actually Mrs Sirius, if Neville was born 30 July and Harry 31 July, they could've been born just shy of each other (Neville born late at night, Harry born early in the morning).

I don't believe the Twins theory, by the way, but it does add something to the Prophecies statement about the "one" being born as the seventh month dies....

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Madam Poppy - Jul 29, 2004 10:37 pm (#494 of 1448)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jul 29, 2004 11:37 pm
Actually, Neville's birthday is July 29th, not the 30th.

From The Leaky Cauldron:
July 29, 2004
JKRowling.com: Happy Birthday Neville
J.K.R. has updated her site to wish Neville Longbottom a Happy Birthday! You can see this on her site where it normally says "Wizard of the Month." Thanks to everyone who sent this in!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEVILLE!

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S.E. Jones - Jul 29, 2004 10:40 pm (#495 of 1448)

Let it snow!
Madam Poppy, see my post (855) on the 'JKR Official Site' thread. It might not have been 29 July....

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 29, 2004 11:16 pm (#496 of 1448)

My birthday is neither July 29th nor July 30th. It's in April. Jo must have made a mistake. ;-) Wait, oh, I see...

Well, Happy Birthday Neville.

By the way, I am sure it's supposed to be July 30th, and Jo updated it, when it was July 30th in Britain.

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Madam Poppy - Jul 30, 2004 8:30 am (#497 of 1448)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jul 30, 2004 9:31 am
OK, someone must have made a boo-boo. Because when I looked at JKR's site it clearly said the 29th. Leaky Cauldron (as copied above) also saw the same thing. (Nice to know I wasn't dreaming) Leaky has changed their Birthday wishes to Neville. (see below in bold)

July 29, 2004
JKRowling.com: Happy Birthday Neville
J.K.R. has updated her site to wish Neville Longbottom a Happy Birthday! His birthday is officially July 30. You can see this on her site where it normally says "Wizard of the Month." Thanks to everyone who sent this in!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEVILLE!

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MrsGump - Jul 30, 2004 8:58 am (#498 of 1448)

It's the time difference. I think when it updated, the date in the UK would've been the 30th. We got to see it five ( or so) hours early and our calanders still said the 29th.

On the up side, that means we should be able to see if there's an update for Harry tonight, instead of waiting for tomorrow.

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Stringer - Jul 30, 2004 9:10 am (#499 of 1448)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEVILLE!!

Hope all is going well with your mimbulus mimbletonia.

Any chance of finding out what your new wand is made of?

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Czarina II - Jul 30, 2004 12:02 pm (#500 of 1448)

Happy 24th Birthday, Neville!

So, er, where have you been since 1996?

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 501 to 550)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:21 am

Crooky - Jul 30, 2004 4:02 pm (#501 of 1448)
Happy birthday Neville for yesterday! It's definately the time difference. When I checked the site the morning of the 30th local time it still said 29th Wizard of the Month, however by about 2pm local time, it had changed to 30th with a happy birthday to Neville. I'm currently on the Lexicon site and it's 10am local time and the JKR site has changed to 31 July with a change in birthday greetings. (local time by the way is in Australia)(I was also hoping JKR would be opening the door in celebration of Harry's birthday...just hasn't happened....sigh)

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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 2, 2004 9:51 pm (#502 of 1448)

"We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man"

Is there a curse to destroy one's power? I'm thinking that there must be a spell that would simply wipe away one's magical powers and turn them into essentially a squib so they can't hurt anybody. That would be worse than death for someone like Voldemort.

I personally see Neville fighting alongside Harry. Harry will defeat Voldemort with the help of his friends.

And about the headboyship, not sure if it's discussed, but would school marks come into play here as well? I assume that both James and Percy were head of class or at least had very good marks.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 3, 2004 7:45 am (#503 of 1448)

I think Neville is becoming a character of greater & greater importance as the storyline progresses - the otherwise unneccesary information about him and the prophecy, and the fact that he's done something important in the majority of books, leads me to believe this.

I don't think Neville is going to be secretly the One from the prophecy or have any weird mystical powers. I just think that his bravery and courage will result in him becoming one of the heroes of the series.

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Carmen Green - Aug 3, 2004 9:57 am (#504 of 1448)

~starving writer~
I have to agree. It seems that Jo has put a lot of emphasis on Neville and his 'history' - more and more in each book. Furthermore, I think it's significant that old Mrs. Longbottom bragged about how extraordinarily gifted and brave the parents were.

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P Andy - Aug 3, 2004 10:45 am (#505 of 1448)

I think Neville will be the Half-Blood Prince. Before you start with "but he's a pure-blood!", keep in mind that Voldemort (a half-blood) led the most vicious pure-blood campaign in history.

I base my opinion on a "discovery" Harry made in CoS. Riddle told him that there was nothing special about him. It was his mother's death that MADE him special. Perhaps Neville was born special. That might be why his grandmother continually puts him down...to keep him safe. I think his magical powers have been bound all this time.

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Duncan - Aug 4, 2004 3:35 am (#506 of 1448)

Andy, I think Neville is not the Half Blood Prince because I really think he is pureblod, but I think Neville is going to become, besides Harry, the most powerful of the gang and also from the DA

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Paulus Maximus - Aug 4, 2004 9:44 am (#507 of 1448)

Both of Neville's parents are in St Mungo's, and Arthur said that it is highly unusual to admit muggles to St Mungo's.

Of course, Alice might be muggle-born for all we know...

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 4, 2004 12:01 pm (#508 of 1448)

No, she isn't. Dumbledore said Neville is a pureblood, in contrast to the halfblood Harry.

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contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 5:34 pm (#509 of 1448)

There is a line in SS when Neville is talking about his Uncle hanging him out the window. Neville says everyone thought he was "all-muggle". Why would a pure-blood family say that? Freudian Slip!! Maybe Neville isn't who you think he is.

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Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:15 pm (#510 of 1448)

Rebel without a cause.
I think when Neville said "All-Muggle" He might have meant "Squib". Also; in CoS, Neville said "Everyone Knows I'm almost a Squib", we know Squibs are born in Wizard families only. Also; Alice Longbottom was an Auror like her Husband. She's definately a Witch.

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therealscabbers - Aug 5, 2004 4:35 am (#511 of 1448)

Petra t
Hello everyone - has anyone else noticed that the prophesy was made before Harry/Neville were born - so at that point DD thought "ok who has defied Voldie 3 times and is expecting a baby at the end of July - Lily and Alice." This meant that one of them would have the child mentioned in the prophesy must mean one of their children. so of he goes and tells both couples and they both go into hiding (why on earth would he only tell the Potters? it makes sense he would tell the Longbottoms too)

As any Parent knows baby's (particularly first borns) rarely come on the day they are due so it was a waiting game to see who has born when - of course any of them could have been overdue and been born in August which would have nicely counted them out! but as it was one was born on the 30th and on on the 31st, both dates still count as the end of July but Harry is in the lead, perhaps only by minutes.

not sure of my point just thought it was interesting that the reason they were both in the frame was their due date not necessarily their birthdate when they went into hiding

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 5, 2004 6:45 am (#512 of 1448)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Do we actually know when the Potter's went into hiding? And did the Longbottoms go into hiding, too? For some reason I am under the impression that they only went into hiding after the birth. As in perhaps the secret agent told DD "ok, now Voldy is going after the kid and his family".

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Padfoot - Aug 5, 2004 10:22 am (#513 of 1448)

I am under the impression that the Potters (and the Longbottoms possibly) went into hiding after their child was born. Maybe only a couple of months before Voldy found the Potters.

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Chemyst - Aug 5, 2004 11:56 am (#514 of 1448)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
According to the Lexicon Timeline for the year 1981, the Fidelius Charm was cast on the Potters with Peter as Secret Keeper on or around October 24. They died a week later on October 31. The Longbottoms were cursed sometime after November 1 by DEs who wanted information on the whereabouts of Voldemort. There is nothing in canon that says the Longbottoms were under a Fidelius Charm protection.

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therealscabbers - Aug 6, 2004 12:21 am (#515 of 1448)

Petra t
Why on earth would DD suggest the potters go into hiding and not the longbottoms if both boys were possible targets? Seems to me it would be a bit unfair! Of course after the attack on the Potters the Longbottoms would have thought it was safe to come out of hiding and so they were easy targets for Lestrangs mob (easy in finding not attacking)

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contess lillein asend - Aug 6, 2004 3:39 am (#516 of 1448)

Wasn't it said that DD put Harry with the Dursley's because the DE's were still around and almost as dangerous as Volde himself.

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therealscabbers - Aug 6, 2004 4:09 am (#517 of 1448)

Petra t
yes but this was when everyone assumed Harry was the subject of the prophesy not Neville - he was in the clear. This meant the Longbottoms could come out of hiding and rejoin the work of the order safe in the knowledge that there son was no longer on Voldie or the DE's hit list. Of course this proved not to be true

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 6, 2004 5:12 am (#518 of 1448)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
DD's "secret agent" cough*Snape*cough may have told him when Voldy was about to strike and whom he would strike. I'm still looking at the timeline to see if I can get the exact sequence of events.

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contess lillein asend - Aug 6, 2004 10:06 am (#519 of 1448)

But DD knew that the dark side did not have this information about marking Harry. All they knew was born at the end of July which still makes Neville a target.

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therealscabbers - Aug 6, 2004 10:36 am (#520 of 1448)

Petra t
fair point contess

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drippan - Aug 6, 2004 12:43 pm (#521 of 1448)

I beleive that they probably was under the charm. Once Harry was picked as the one, they could go about their business.

And their business was Aurors. The DEs that got them was trying to find out information on where to find LV, thus, they were tortured into insanity to find out what they knew.

DripPan

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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 7, 2004 10:55 pm (#522 of 1448)

I thought the Potters went into hiding because they were the ones Voldemort was after. Remember that Voldemort had identified Harry as the threat because he saw in him what he saw in himself. So very early on, it was clear that it would be Harry that Voldemort would try to kill. So the Longbottoms weren't exactly targeted. That could explain why DD was most concerned about the Potters. They were in the most immediate danger. Voldemort had targeted them for death (and that's highly inescapable). Crouch Jr. and co. only went after the Longbottoms presumably because they were very respected aurors perhaps of sufficient rank and they felt they must know the whereabouts of Voldemort. For what we know, the Longbottoms were never targeted. Then again, we don't really know whether the Longbottoms did go into hiding do we?

I too think that when Neville said he was "all-muggle" he meant he was a squib. I don't know how pure the Longbottoms are but they're definitely more pureblood than Harry (I think it was Hagrid that said Harry was a pureblood once in CoS). We know that Harry is a pureblood in the sense that both his parents are wizards, yet he's widely considered a halfblood to those who care because his grandparents were muggles so Harry's blood isn't that pure.

It is clear that Neville's storyline is important and will continue to be important. Harry does need all the help he can get and Neville certainly has the pedigree to be of assistance (his fast progress in the DA is a good sign).

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Classicsquid592 - Aug 21, 2004 2:18 pm (#523 of 1448)

I have not read all of the posts on this site, so this may have already been discussed in great depth previously. I apologize for reprising old discussions if it has I am new to the forum and have not been following all of the threads. In the fifth book I noticed two events which may or may not have been connected. If they are, then they could provide a valuable clue as to the end of the series. In chapter Twenty-two page 474 (in the American edition) Fawkes sheds a single feather ("There was a flash of flame in the very middle of the office leaving behind a single golden feather that floated gently to the floor. 'It is Fawkes's warning,'said Dumbledore catching the feather as it fell"). Later on during the battle in the department of Mysteries, Neville breaks his father's wand making it clear that in the next book Neville will receive the first wand to be personally fitted to him. Both Dumbledore and Ollivander mentioned that Voldemort's and Harry's wands contained the only feathers ever shed by Fawkes. The fact that Fawkes sheds a third feather the same year that Neville breaks his wand seems significant to me. If Neville were to recieve a wand with Fawkes' feather as a core, then all three people connected with the prophecy would share a wand core. This would mean that Neville would be gaining power, be connected to the prophecy, and would now have one of only two wands that could rival the Dark Lord's. Though Neville is not the one that the prophecy is about, he could still be the key to defeating Voldemort. I am probably restarting an old thread but I think that Neville's wand could be an interesting discussion.

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Steve Newton - Aug 21, 2004 2:22 pm (#524 of 1448)

Librarian
Wow, that sounds just like the sort of clue JKR would use.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 21, 2004 2:55 pm (#525 of 1448)

I thought the Potters went into hiding because they were the ones Voldemort was after. Remember that Voldemort had identified Harry as the threat because he saw in him what he saw in himself. So very early on, it was clear that it would be Harry that Voldemort would try to kill. So the Longbottoms weren't exactly targeted.

Voldemort did attack the Potters, but it wasn't until after the attack that "The One" was identified. Voldemort heard only part of the Prophecy, so he had no way of knowing exactly which child was "The One." The Longbottoms may have been in hiding as well, and perhaps Voldemort would have gone after Neville after he killed Harry, except he found out he couldn't kill Harry. Wormtail was the Potters' Secret-Keeper, but we don't know who, if anyone, was the Longbottoms' Secret-Keeper.

Voldemort did go after Harry first, but that doesn't mean he didn't plan on going after Neville.

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Siriusly - Aug 21, 2004 5:01 pm (#526 of 1448)

Classicsquid:

LOVE THAT POST.

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Ff3girl - Aug 21, 2004 11:58 pm (#527 of 1448)

Great idea about the phoenix feather and Neville's wand! I had completely forgotten that Fawkes had only ever shed two feathers (for Harry and Voldy's wands...)

It just fits together too nicely to not be anything. Then again, so did Mark Evans.. :-(

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MrsGump - Aug 22, 2004 6:11 am (#528 of 1448)

I don't think Fawkes only ever "shed" two feathers, I think it was he only "gave" two feathers for wands. The shedding feathers seem to be a way to give warnings and messages to members of the Order. There have been more than just the one DD caught in his office.

The only example I can remember:

"Then a burst of fire in midair illuminated the dirty plates in front of them and, as they gave cries of shock, a scroll of parchment fell with a thud on to the table, accompanied by a single golden phoenix tail feather." The Eye of the Snake, OotP

Not that DD couldn't give Ollivander some of the feathers he's been collecting, but I don't think the shedding feather have the same power as the ones he gave for wands.

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The One - Aug 22, 2004 6:23 am (#529 of 1448)

Open minded sceptic
but I don't think the shedding feather have the same power as the ones he gave for wands.

This make very much sense, but in GoF (I think) Olivander tells that he was almost "gored" by an unicorn while he was collecting unicorn tail for wands. Seems that not all wand substance is voluntarily given.

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Siriusly - Aug 22, 2004 7:10 am (#530 of 1448)

In COS, Faulkes burning day, Faulkes sheds two feathers just before burning up. How long between burnings?

I think the feathers are sent out to Ollivanders to find the "right" person(s). This gives the Order of the Pheonix a whole new slant. To me anyway.

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Classicsquid592 - Aug 22, 2004 9:16 am (#531 of 1448)

In that case, one must ask how to define giving a feather. I had not noticed that there had been other feathers (Thank you MRS. Grump) but now I am wondering what is so special about the feathers in Harry/Voldemort's wands. What exactly is the difference between "giving" a feather and simply shedding one? Does Dumbledore make a point of collecting all of the feathers given by Fawkes? Exactly why does Rowling make a point of letting the reader know that before Harry leaves Dumbledore collects the falling feather? That is truly fascinating. Do phoenix feathers have other purposes than use as wand cores?

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Classicsquid592 - Aug 22, 2004 9:17 am (#532 of 1448)

Wait, only the tail feathers are used in wands. There goes that theory. Alas!


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Siriusly - Aug 22, 2004 2:18 pm (#533 of 1448)

Ah, but they are tail feathers. Page 206 in COS, bottom of the page.

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Tom Vitleysa - Aug 22, 2004 2:57 pm (#534 of 1448)

It may be that a pheonix has the ability to "charge" a particular feather with magical properties before it is removed. This would make a phoenix feather different from a unicorn hair, which is inherently magical. Although, that theory doesn't sound right to me, because then you would only get feathers for wands from domesticated phoenixes and I don't think there are many of those. It may also be that only a specific few feathers on a phoenix are powerfully magical and that these feathers would not be used to alert DD or deliver messages. Maybe a very small percentage of feathers from pheonixes are the right kind so DD collects them all and tests them to see. That theory gives hope to the third feather theory, but whether it has a Fawkes core or not Neville will be better off with his own wand. I just hope he goes and sees Mr. Ollivander personally, as opposed to his grandmother picking one up for him. Actually, I wonder if Harry might go with him. It'd be fun to visit Ollivander's shop again.

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therealscabbers - Aug 23, 2004 10:02 am (#535 of 1448)

Petra t
just want to add an "ok I was wrong" in light of the ed festival chat, it seems that the Potters did not go into hiding before the birth of Harry as they had a quick christening before going in to hiding, so quick only Sirius was chosen as Godfather. This means that it is not s forgone conclusion the Longbottoms also went into hiding - Harry was born on the 31st Neville on the 30th - doesnt mean they didnt though

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Classicsquid592 - Aug 23, 2004 2:21 pm (#536 of 1448)

I'm very glad that at least one of my predictions was salvaged. (At least until the next book) I'll keep my fingers crossed.

then you would only get feathers for wands from domesticated phoenixes and I don't think there are many of those.*

Aren't phoenix wands extremely rare? It seems that most people either have unicorn hair or dragon heart-string, unicorn hairs being the most common. I did not check in the book but I thought that only a few people were said to possess phoenix core wands.
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Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 3:23 pm (#537 of 1448)

And for that matter, aren't pheonixes rare?

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Classicsquid592 - Aug 23, 2004 3:58 pm (#538 of 1448)

I think so, good point. I am going to copy the start of the wand discussion into the wand forum, It seems to fit there. THey are starting to talk about the shed feather there.

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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 24, 2004 5:29 pm (#539 of 1448)

The weather is here.....wish you were beautiful
When Neville gets his new wand I believe his powers will start to grow even more. I also think Neville will turn out to be a major player in the last battle. If your ask me the real turning point for him was when Harry gave him the chocolate frog in Sorcerer's Stone and told him he was worth twelve on Malfoy. Form this point on Neville has started growing more confident in himself. Look at it from his point of view, not only does somebody finally believe in him but that somebody is the great Harry Potter. His loyalty to Harry is growing in every book. In the end this could be how Voldy will be defeated. Maby Neville will sacrafice his self (or try to) to save Harry and his actions will triger something in Harry to help him defeat Voldy.

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Land of the Shire - Aug 24, 2004 10:28 pm (#540 of 1448)

Regarding Neville's new wand: I think it will be important for Neville because it will be an important way in which he will no longer be living in the shadow of his father. As you'll remember from OotP, Neville's old wand once belonged to his dad. The fact that his grandmother constantly compares him (unfavorably) to his father seems to have had a negative impact on Neville up till now.

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The One - Aug 25, 2004 12:34 am (#541 of 1448)

Open minded sceptic
I think it will be important for Neville because it will be an important way in which he will no longer be living in the shadow of his father.

But what if Neville's fate is to be good in Herbology, but he will never be good at the things that he parents was good at?

Neville's problem is that his gran does not consider him a person in his own right, but as a replacement for her lost son. It is of course better for Neville to be a good replacement than a bad replacement, but the fundamental issues can only be resolved if his gran realizes that Neville is Neville, not Frank II.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 29, 2004 9:43 am (#542 of 1448)

Neville seems to be a different person when he stops thinking and starts feeling.

After the escape from Azkaban of the Death Eaters, he becomes one of the best students Harry is teaching. When Malfoy is being his usual ignorant self and talks about people in St. Mungo's, Neville goes after him. In the Department of Mysteries even though he has a broken nose, he still stands up for Harry, even to the point of being Crucioed by Bella.

McGonagall told him his only problem was a lack of confidence, and it seems that when Neville stops worrying and starts feeling, he becomes quite formidable.

He's shown his bravery throughout the books, even if it hides at times. After all, he did ask Hermione and Ginny to go to the Yule Ball with him, and he did that before Harry got the nerve to ask Cho.

That's an excellent point, The One, about Gran seeing him as his own person and not a replacement for his father.

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Aud Duck - Aug 30, 2004 8:42 am (#543 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I really doubt that Neville will only be good at Herbology. He has already proven himself an excellent DA member. Neville can be good at magic. He just needs something dire(such as his parents' destroyers on the loose)to force him into action. I think that if there were something that could save his parents, even a ridiculously complicated potion, Neville would manage to master it. He's not exceptionally bright, but he is determined. That can easily compensate for intelligence in many circumstances. I agree about his Grandmother, but I think that Neville can be just Neville and still be good at some of the things that his father was. The family seems to be respecting him for himself more already. The mimbulus mimbletonia really suited Neville's personal abilities. (Though, I'll grant, it was from Great Uncle Algie, not Gran)

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The One - Aug 30, 2004 9:32 am (#544 of 1448)

Open minded sceptic
I really doubt that Neville will only be good at Herbology.

He may be good at many things. My only point was that his worth as a human does not depend on his ability to act as a replacement for his father. If he is a potential Auror by the end of book 7 that is fine. If he does not even want to be an auror but rather wants to be Hogwarts next Herbology professor that is also fine. He must be what he wants to be, not what his father was.

As for being an excellent DA member he worked hard and made a lot of progress, but his aim are still poor. In the MoM battle his spells either missed or hit friend and foe alike. But he was the one to check for pulse to verify that Hermione was still alive, and he carried her for parts of the battle. When he was unable to cast spells due to his broken jaw, he poked the enemy in the eye with the wand instead. There is nothing wrong with his bravery or ability to think under pressure, but perhaps he is a better medic than fighting soldier?

Or perhaps he will continue to grow and really be an excellent auror.

On the other hand I see no reason to believe that Neville is not intelligent. He has a bad memory, bur except from that? As MacGonagol said: "It is nothing wrong with your work except lack of confidence."

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LooneyLuna - Aug 30, 2004 9:56 am (#545 of 1448)

I wonder how Neville's Gran will react to the news that Neville fought Death Eaters at the DoM. Do you think that will change her mind about Neville? Neville was the last one standing with Harry.

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Padfoot - Aug 30, 2004 2:09 pm (#546 of 1448)

I wonder if Neville will look at Snape and Draco (and goons) the same way now that he has fought some DE's. He might be less afraid of them. I hope so at least.

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Kasse - Aug 30, 2004 2:20 pm (#547 of 1448)

Oh I hope that his time fighting the DE's has given him confidence, after all Malfoy is nothing compared to DE's

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Phoenix song - Aug 30, 2004 8:19 pm (#548 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I love Neville and I was so pleased with the progress that he began to make in OoP. I hope that he just continues to "bloom" (herbology reference) in the next two books.

I don't think that he's going to become an auror, though. Remember the meeting that Harry had with Professor McGonaggal about his career choices. She said that aurors needed to have excellent transfiguration and potion scores. She reminded him that Professor Snape "absolutely refused" to take any student into his advanced potions classes if they did not receive the highest of scores. Although Neville did make really great leaps in his last year, I doubt that his potions scores, at least, could have been high enough to consider an auror position.

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LooneyLuna - Aug 31, 2004 5:28 am (#549 of 1448)

I don't think Neville would want to be an Auror either. I'm sure there are plenty of other careers that he can choose from. I could see him owning his own plant shop or going abroad, searching for new species of magical plants or even experimenting with them.

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Phoenix song - Aug 31, 2004 5:44 am (#550 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I see Neville as being the person in Harry's year that becomes a teacher at Hogwart's. He's learned so much in DA that I wouldn't be surprised if he was the new, lasting DaDa teacher.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 551 to 600)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:23 am

therealscabbers - Aug 31, 2004 8:05 am (#551 of 1448)
Petra t
"As for being an excellent DA member he worked hard and made a lot of progress, but his aim are still poor. In the MoM battle his spells either missed or hit friend and foe alike"

In the height of battle no one's aim is perfect otherwise they would have all been toast! Even Bellatrix missed Harry, and to have duelled for so long with Tonks and then with Sirius even in a one on one fight spells must have been missed - one AK would have finished both of the order members off (I admit they were obviously good at blocking too) So I donth think you can say he wasnt an excellent DE member because he miss fired a couple of times - he ws afterall the last one standing with Harry as has been said so he cant be that bad.

It is like Hermione said in PS/SS "books and cleverness" there is more to being good at DA than spells and aim it is the resutls that matter and Neville fought to the end even when he couldnt get the incantations out he carried on trying.

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The One - Aug 31, 2004 8:58 am (#552 of 1448)

Open minded sceptic
It is of course hard to judge after one battle, but my impression is that Neville's courage and determination is unquestionable, his practical skill are not quit up to Harry's standard yet. I see no reason to blame him for this, his recent rapid growth has only lasted for less then a year. It takes time to get that good.

He was the last one standing, that is right, but he was wounded. The kick that in his face greatly reduced his fighting ability and destroyed his wand.

Just to exemplify it by OWL grades: I expect Neville's only O to be Herbology. (Perhaps two if the get both a practical and a written grade.) I expect him to get E in DADA, and perhaps his increased confidence will help him get E in Transfiguration and/or Charms as well. And he will pass (A) i potions (Dare I hope for an "E"?).

All this is far better results than I would have predicted for the pre-OotP Neville, showing that the boy has grown immensely.

But I somehow do no have the impression that he will ace in DADA. I don't want him to either, because I don't want him to be a copy of his father, I want him to be Neville.

And just for the record: In DADA I expect O's for Harry and Hermione and E for Ron.

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LooneyLuna - Aug 31, 2004 9:52 am (#553 of 1448)

"He was the last one standing, that is right, but he was wounded. The kick that in his face greatly reduced his fighting ability and destroyed his wand." The One

He was also the only wounded one to help Harry before The Order showed up. "He's not alone, He's gob me!" You could even argue that he saved Harry's life by stabbing MacNair in the eye with Hermione's wand. Harry couldn't breathe at that point.

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The One - Aug 31, 2004 10:07 am (#554 of 1448)

Open minded sceptic
He was also the only wounded one to help Harry before The Order showed up. "He's not alone, He's gob me!" You could even argue that he saved Harry's life by stabbing MacNair in the eye with Hermione's wand. Harry couldn't breathe at that point.

That is true: I repeat:

Neville's courage and determination is unquestionable, (but) his practical skill are not quit up to Harry's standard yet.

Neville is notorious known for his bad aim and lack of control when doing magic, he have improved a lot, but yet in battle two of two spells fails. It may be bad luck, a lot of spells will miss their target in battle, but it seems to be an indication that some of his old problems remains despite his progress.

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Neville Longbottom - Aug 31, 2004 2:02 pm (#555 of 1448)

Neville's courage and determination is unquestionable, (but) his practical skill are not quit up to Harry's standard yet.


While this is of course true, I think it can be said about every DA member. None of them is up to Harry's standard. I expect Neville to get an O in DADA, but I expect every DA member to get an O in DADA.

But I agree with The One, I don't want Neville to become an auror. If he will become one, and it is convingly written, I'll be happy to admit that I was mistaken, but I really think Neville becoming an Auror would take a lot away from his wonderful character development. Neville is not Frank, and I don't want him to live in father's shadow again in choosing the same profession. I agree with whoever thinks that it will be him who'll become the teacher after year 7. Probably in Herbology, but if he continues to get better maybe even in DADA. If it isn't him (and he survives) than he'll hopefully do something involving plants. That said, I can see Neville going to the Careers Advice and telling McGonagall, that he wants to become an Auror (just to live up to his grandmother's wishes). But I also think McGonagall may advice him to choose a profession that suits him better.

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Bree Kennedy - Sep 1, 2004 12:09 pm (#556 of 1448)

Did anyone notice the special plant Neville had on the train in OOP (he was hoping to show it to Prof. Sprout to breed it) was also the password for getting past the Fat Lady? It's Mimbulus mimbletonia. Does anyone think that means anything?

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LooneyLuna - Sep 1, 2004 12:20 pm (#557 of 1448)

Bree - there's a thread devoted to the Mimbulus. It's further down on the forum.

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Chris. - Sep 1, 2004 12:22 pm (#558 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I think it was simply for Neville's assistance. It was common knowledge that Neville had/has a bad memory, and with all the danger surrounding Harry, and Hogwarts, it was essential that Gryffindors, including Neville, would remember the password without writing it down, risking Harry's, and the other's, safety.

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 1, 2004 6:27 pm (#559 of 1448)

nah, it says in the beginning posts of the thread that it comes from a plant in "real life" known for curing one's fears and making them more self-confident. check it out! very intersting!

I really think that J.K. Rowling is paralleling Neville with Peter Pettigrew. They're both lousy at magic and depend on their friends for help and they both tag along after the "main group." However, I think she's showing us that they both chose a road to take. Peter Pettigrew chose the coward's route and Neville appears to be choosing the more noble and courageous course.

I think by hinting at similarities between them, she's showing us just how strong Neville really is. Sure he's scared and lacks confidence, but that doesn't stop him from standing up for his friends and (as in book 5) risking his life for them. I'd even venture to say that in the end Neville may be forced to make a similar choice as Pettigrew, choosing between the good and evil sides, and that ultimately he'll choose his friends, unlike Pettigrew.

I also think it's very important that at the end of book 5, neville was put under the cruciatus curse. he felt exactly what his parents felt, and I think that gave him a much better understanding of exactly what Voldemort's followers did to them. I think it will make him strengthen his resolve and become even better!

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EbonyRebel - Sep 4, 2004 6:17 am (#560 of 1448)

it seems to me that Neville's Uncle Algie pops up at pivotal points in Nevilles life, or is even the reason for these pivotal points. the first time is the discovery that neville is a wizard, unlike what his family previously thought (Algie dropped neville out the window, and neville bounced)and the second time is when he gives neville the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant. this same year sees a remarkable change in neville (i think the theory about it reducing neville's fears is an excellent one - can't remember who came up with it first, sorry, but kudos to you anyway!). i think that the plant feeds on neville's fear,maybe through touch, as we're told that it grew a huge amount during the year, and makes "odd crooning noises when touched". Another interesting thing is that neville will finally get his own wand in the next book. if we can take mr.ollivanders word as reliable, that "no wizard will get as good results with another wizard's wand", then i think that we will see a remarkable increase in neville's magical ability. he also has a thirst to avenge his parents. it will be interesting to see if he ever sinks to the level of the death eaters.

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Agramante - Sep 4, 2004 7:53 am (#561 of 1448)

Some thoughts on Neville's place in the Voldemort/? prophecy. It can't be insignificant that JK has put Neville in the picture: why create any doubt at all over the prophecy's subject, only to quash it completely a few pages later? There are things about Neville which give me pause. First: how would Voldemort have marked him as his equal? Perhaps there's something we don't know yet, but V does promote himself as a pureblood, which Neville actually is. More importantly, though, there is this question of the power V's nemesis will have...Neville's coming into his own by the end of book 5. He'd become one of the most adept at learning spells in the DA. But so much was quietly revealed when Harry & co. ran into him at St. Mungo's: his grandmother said "Don't be ashamed, Neville," and he quietly answered, "I'm not ashamed." What is he, then? I'm getting a feeling that Neville is even deeper than Harry. Where Harry's mourned his parents his whole life, without really knowing them, Neville's grief never really heals because his parents are still alive and a constant torment to him. He's learned even more bitterly than Harry about the sacrifices that come with love and compassion. A small, but significant example: he puts the candy wrapper from his mother in his pocket, not the trash can. I just get the sense that Neville is the one who has the love and compassion in such strength that Voldemort won't be able to stand against him: so Harry's done the skirmishing for several years, but Neville will be the one to administer V's final defeat. That would make sense for Voldemort too, who's underestimated the power of love many times already: that he should misinterpret the prophecy and choose the wrong boy. Much like Sauron in the Lord of the Rings, who whiffed on the Ring: Voldemort is a wise fool who miscalculates on the most critical danger he faces and dooms himself.

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Aud Duck - Sep 4, 2004 9:53 am (#562 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I doubt that Neville is ashamed of his parents. He's just a very private person. If he had been as close to Harry as Ron is, he probably would have told him. But Neville does not actually have any close friends at school. There is no reason for him to go around telling people what happened to his parents.

I don't think that Voldemort miscalculates the danger of Neville more than that of Harry. But, really, the reason I disagree that Neville will destroy Voldemort is that you can't just take a character that has been the protagonist for five books and shove him into the background by having someone else win the final battle. I think that Neville will be crucial to the final win, but will not do the actual destruction. Perhaps this will involve getting rid of Bellatrix.

If the theory that Neville will get a Fawkes feather wand is true, though, my theory changes. In that case, I think that Dumbledore was wrong about the prophecy in thinking that it could only apply to one person. Neville and Harry will take on Voldemort as a team. Though Harry will do whatever it is that finally gets rid of Voldemort(for no other reason than that he's the book's hero), he and Neville will contribut in equal part.

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Agramante - Sep 4, 2004 10:40 am (#563 of 1448)

I agree with you, Aud Duck, I see Harry and Neville going to fight Voldemort together: I just have an easier time picturing Neville as the one who, even if he does less during most of the action, finally closes the deal. My point about Neville's "I'm not ashamed" remark was an honest question: if Neville's not ashamed, I'm not sure what he's been feeling. It's a mystery, a big one, and an important one. I think it's a key to his makeup, a key to what will make him so important as events come to a head. Neville has much, much more to show everyone than he has so far.

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Lady Black99 - Sep 4, 2004 5:59 pm (#564 of 1448)

23 year old first grade teacher who is obsessed with everything Harry Potter
"It can't be insignificant that JK has put Neville in the picture: why create any doubt at all over the prophecy's subject, only to quash it completely a few pages later?"

I figured she did this to reinforce the fact that LV choose Harry as the equal because he was/ is the Half-blood and not the "Pure-blood" Neville.

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Leila 2X4B - Sep 4, 2004 7:26 pm (#565 of 1448)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Perhaps what Neville has been feeling is the desire to not draw attention to himself. He has looked at Harry from day one draw an inordinate amount of attention to himself, simply cause Lord Thingy couldn't get the best of him. Neville's parents were attacked by Lord Moldimort's closets followers and Neville would have likely attracted similar, not as much, attention. Especially in PoA and OotP.

Leila

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True Love - Sep 5, 2004 4:24 am (#566 of 1448)

Agramante - I love what you are saying. It really would make an interesting ending but since Harry is still the main character I think he will also play an important part in V's defeat. Your story line is very well thought out though.

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 6, 2004 11:23 am (#567 of 1448)

While I think that Neville administering the following blow is a very cool and well thought out theory, I think it's very illogical and improbable. The prophecy states that Harry must destroy voldemort or vice versa. Plus, I also agree that J. K. Rowling wouldn't just have Harry as the protagonist for the first 5 books only to make Neville the hero in the end. However, I do think that Neville will play a major role.

I think it's fairly obvious by now that Neville will become a much stronger wizard as the series comes to its end. I am however worried about whether or not he will survive. What if in a way, I am wrong, and Neville does end up administering the final blow to Voldemort...by sacrificing himself so that Harry can fulfill the prophecy? What if that is his role in the prophecy?

What does Neville feel if he's not ashamed of what happened to his parents? Grief and anger. We all read how he reacted to Malfoy's taunting of the patients in St. Mungo's ward. I think what he feels will give him the strength to fight Voldemort tooth and nail. I think he keeps his feelings inside, but that they are there and potent and will drive him to become a great wizard.

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Steve Newton - Sep 6, 2004 11:31 am (#568 of 1448)

Librarian
Madam, I don't think that the prophecy is anywhere that clear. I'm not even sure how many people it is talking about. Too many indefinite pronouns.

Also, the prophecy is not controlling, it is only predicting. If it was controlling, or telling the only way that the future could play out than nobodies choices would count for anything.

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Aud Duck - Sep 6, 2004 3:59 pm (#569 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Well, even if it were controlling, people's choices would still matter. It just says that Harry (or Neville) is the only one with the power to defeat Voldemort. It could end up with either one triumphant, though, so Neville's contribution will be very important even if the "marking" part of the prophecy keeps Nevill from being the one to actually destroy Voldemort.
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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 6, 2004 4:12 pm (#570 of 1448)

Well the prophecy is vague, but I still think one point of it is made clear: none will live while the other survives. either Harry or Voldemort must die. and in the fifth book Dumbledore states "I'm afraid there is no doubt that it is you" when Harry says that Neville might be the one.

Obviously Harry needs to face voldemort, and it seems pretty clear, from Dumbledore's comments after wormtail escapes in the third book that the fact that Harry saved his wormtail's life will come into play. So where does Neville fit into all of this?

well let's look at the similarities:

Both Harry's and Neville's parents were put out of commission because of Voldemort.

Both Harry and Neville could have been marked by Voldemort to "fulfill the prophecy."

At the end of the fifth book it was Harry and Neville (and no one else from the DA or the group that went with Harry)that faced the death eaters.

obviously Neville is shaping up to be a major player. However, I just don't see him as the hero in the end over Harry.

By the way, does anyone else find it interesting (similar to Hermione not being in Ravenclaw) that it seems like Neville may belong in Hufflepuff house? Why was he put in Gryffindor? Do you think that has signifigance other than his courage being the biggest quality in him?

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TomProffitt - Sep 6, 2004 5:21 pm (#571 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
While Hufflepuff is the House that will take all comers, it is also the House of Hardwork.

I can no more imagine Neville studying ten hours a day like Ernie MacMillain than I can Harry or Ron.

Neville may have a higher level of fearfulness in him than most, but it has never stopped him from doing what he thinks is right. He took on Crabbe and Goyle by himself in PS/SS; that's not the mark of a coward.

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 6, 2004 5:43 pm (#572 of 1448)

I never said he was a coward. On the contrary, I've been saying all along that he is most certainly not a coward and has great courage in him. I'm just saying that he has a lot of characteristics of hufflepuff house, such as his loyalty. You can't tell me that even though he fails, he doesn't try. He tries very hard, but his lack of confidence holds him back. It has nothing to do with him not being a hard worker.

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TomProffitt - Sep 6, 2004 5:46 pm (#573 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
I see your point, Madam Rosmerta, but I haven't doubted Neville belonging in Gryffindor since that first fight of his at the Quidditch match.

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 6, 2004 9:19 pm (#574 of 1448)

wipes tear from eye* yes. that was beautiful. I was so proud! our little Neville...

I can't wait to see how much further his character develops in the sixth book. He improved greatly in the fifth book.

Phoenix song - Sep 6, 2004 10:22 pm (#575 of 1448) [/b]
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Neville has always been one of my top favorite characters. I was so pleased that I could have cried at the remarkable progress that Neville made in OoP. I've been thinking about the earlier posts that questioned the sorting hat's decision to place Neville in Gryffindor. I do think that Neville has more Gryffindor qualities than bravery, although he does have an abundance of that one! I think that he also possesses the ability to do what's right even when: it's not allowed (joining DA); it's not popular (sticking up for Harry when everybody thought that he was crazy); it can personally cost him his life (fighting a dozen DEs in the MoM). I'm sure that this seems like simple bravery. I mean it as something deeper, though. I think that he possesses the same ability as Harry to sacrifice himself for what he thinks is right. I see a distinction between bravery and the ability to willingly sacrifice your own best interest for those around you. It's really late, so I hope that I've been able to adequately express myself.

I've lately begun to think more about Prof. McGonnagal's statement that Neville's spellwork lacked confidence. I agree that Neville isn't very self-confident, but I think that his problems goes deeper into the low self-esteem category. Most of the time that Neville speaks up it is in other's defense. He will defend his house, his friends, and his parents. I can only think of one time that he defended himself, though. "I'm worth twelve of you Malfoy," (SS, Ch. 13, pg. 223 U.S. ed.)

We know that he takes abuse constantly from others, especially the Slytherins, but doesn't want to cause any trouble. Why is it that he only thinks of others as important enough to defend? Why is it that he doesn't get angry about the way that he is being treated? Why doesn't Neville think that he is important enough to fight for? I think that all of the years of being told that he's not the wizard that his dad was have taken their toll upon his self-esteem. I am looking forward to the day when Neville gets fed up and decides that he is worth standing up for as well.

Barbie

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phoenix fire - Sep 7, 2004 7:00 am (#576 of 1448)

Berkeley baby, Berkeley
I agree with you Phoenix Song (and I like your name!). Neville has the potential for great bravery, and I think OotP was just a glimpse of what we will see from Neville in the next 2 books. I also think, going back to the discussion of the ultimate conclusion for Neville, I think he will ultimately be a hero and he will finally have a victory of his own. I see him defeating Bellatrix. JKR is telling a story, more than that, a story for a younger audience. I think Neville is a character many readers relate to in one way or another... not being able to stick up for yourself, feeling clumsy or stupid or inferior. Everyone has felt that at one time. It would be too much of a let down if Neville failed or died (even if he died succeeding). No, Neville will overcome his low self-esteem and be a hero, because we the reader are too attached to and involved with his character. (Is it obvious Neville is one of my favorites?)

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Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 9:10 am (#577 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Phoenix fire: Yes, I also feel that JKR is leading us to a final showdown between Neville and Bellatrix. It would be so fitting for Neville to defeat the woman who tortured his parents to a fate worse than death. I can picture them in a duel, with her underestimating his powers and mocking him in her sickening baby voice. Her underestimating him will be, in my opinion, her downfall. Maybe this time it will be Bella that falls through the veil with a shocked look upon her face! I definitely think that Neville will take on Bellatrix while Harry battles Voldemort. I can't wait for the next two books!

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Aud Duck - Sep 7, 2004 11:30 am (#578 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I agree about Bellatrix, but Neville is high on my death list. He's just too loyal. He will definately defeat Bellatrix, but I can easily see him making some sort of sacrifice that brings about Voldemort's ultimate demise(through Harry, of course). Think about how he took on Crabbe and Goyle single-handed. It's just the sort of rash, brave thing his personality lends him to. He would probably be smart enough now to make sure it would serve a purpose, but he would definitely do it if he thought it necessary. And when you take on DEs singlehanded, you're likely to end up much worse off than knocked out.

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Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 1:40 pm (#579 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Aud Duck: Yes, I'm afraid that I can also see that Neville is a likely candidate for self-sacrifice. I'll feel better about it if he takes out Bellatrix (for his parents and Sirius) first. I remember that Sirius said that there were some things that were worth dying for, and I think that Neville is the type that would agree. I think that Neville is just a wonderful character. I think that there are many shy, unconfident children who could greatly benefit through seeing Neville emerge as a force to be reckoned with. I really like Neville, but if he has to die so that Harry can live....

Barbie

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phoenix fire - Sep 7, 2004 2:38 pm (#580 of 1448)

Berkeley baby, Berkeley
I just can't see Neville dying, and maybe I'll eat my words, but it seems too unkind to have Neville go out in a blaze of glory, without being able to enjoy the glory! I think he will get to see his parents mental health restored, prove himself to his Gran, and become a true peer of Harry, Ron and Hermione.

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 7, 2004 10:01 pm (#581 of 1448)

I agree about Neville having a very high percentage of a chance of being on the casualty list when all is said and done. However, I have hope, because a couple of things wouldn't add up if he did die. First of all, although I believe that Neville will continue to improve in book six, I think he definately won't reach his full potential until book seven, and then it would be illogical for him to be killed off because it would be like destroying him when he finally reached his potential. I think that it would be more fitting and following the storyline if he survived and went on to become a great wizard, sending the message that even though he was akward to say the least in the beginning, through perseverence, confidence, and hard work, he made it.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid for his life just as much, if not more, than you...

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Phoenix song - Sep 8, 2004 8:11 am (#582 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Yes, I'm really afraid for Neville. He's one of my top, top favorite characters. It would be a shame to kill him just as he sees that he has it in him to be "great". I hope that he is the one of Harry's classmates that JKR has said will go on to teach at Hogwart's. I can see him as the new Herbology teacher, but I can also envision him as the new permanent DADA teacher.

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Aud Duck - Sep 8, 2004 3:03 pm (#583 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
That quote certainly raised my hopes for Neville's survival. I assume the comment about it not being the one we think rules out Hermione. Neville was my first thought, too. Watch it be Luna. That would rather tick me off. Neville deserves a nice teaching job where he is highly respected.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2004 1:28 am (#584 of 1448)

I don't think the teacher will be Luna. JKR said this after the release of the third book. And if the teacher were Luna, I don't think she would have given the kids the chance to guess who the teacher is. It's not that they had the possibility to guess it :-).

Another question, to those who have English as their mothertongue: What does the word "classmate" exactly mean? IMO, Harry's "classmates" are Ron, Hermione, Neville, Dean, Seamus, Lavender and Parvati and nobody else. That's how I always understood it, and that's why I first thought about Neville, since Hermione and Ron are pretty much excluded and therefore Ron is the most important character left. But I'm really not sure, if my interpretation of the world classmate is correct.
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TomProffitt - Sep 9, 2004 4:16 am (#585 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
"What does the word "classmate" exactly mean?" --- Neville Longbottom

I've always assumed there to be a distinction between a "classmate" and a "schoolmate." However we may be talking about dialect and usage. I'm well aware that there is quite a variety of dialect within the continental US, not to mention the English language world wide.

I would count classmates as all those of Harry's year and not limit it to only Gryffindors of the same year. In my dialect "class" is synonymous with "year."

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 9, 2004 4:54 am (#586 of 1448)

"What does the word "classmate" exactly mean? It can have a couple of meanings depending on context. It could mean all the students in Harry's year as TomProffitt says. Or it could mean just the students in Harry's Hufflepuff class. Or it could mean Harry's friends from school (as opposed to his friends from Little Whinging).

No simple answer here.

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phoenix fire - Sep 9, 2004 5:43 am (#587 of 1448)

Berkeley baby, Berkeley
I think classmate would have to be someone Harry actually takes classes with.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2004 6:24 am (#588 of 1448)

Thank you everybody. :-)

I still think it will be Neville *hoping I am right*.

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Aud Duck - Sep 9, 2004 2:07 pm (#589 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Well, I don't seriously think Luna would be. Just going for something off the wall there. Neville certainly seems like the most likely candidate. We are pretty much limited to Neville, Ernie, one of the Creeveys, Draco, Dean, Seamus, Lavender, Parvati, and Ginny. Ginny and the Creeveys are not, technically, Harry's classmates(though you could argue one of them at a stretch). Draco is an enemy and this is a kid's book. We really don't know any of the others all that well. So Neville certainly seems like the best possibility.

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Chris. - Sep 9, 2004 2:15 pm (#590 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I fear for Neville, the same as I fear for Harry. There is always danger that could strike at any moment. I believe Voldemort will try and kill Neville, as well as Harry, now.


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Aud Duck - Sep 9, 2004 2:18 pm (#591 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
At least he doesn't know that Neville could have been the prophecy boy. Maybe he's got so much energy focused on Harry that he won't even notice Neville. Bellatrix, on the other hand...

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Chris. - Sep 9, 2004 2:19 pm (#592 of 1448)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I think he did know Neville was the other boy, as he made a choice. There must have been a reason, other than he saw himself in Harry, for him to pick the Potters as his target.

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Aud Duck - Sep 9, 2004 2:22 pm (#593 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Maybe he was planning to kill them both, and just got to Harry first because the opportunity presented itself so conveniently. Of course, that would go against my previous theory.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2004 3:19 pm (#594 of 1448)

I tend to think this, too. Maybe the Longbottom's had a trustworthy secret keeper? On the other hand, this would of course mean that Voldemort didn't choose anything, but that it was merely by accident that he marked Harry, and that's not what Dumbledore implied. But I never understood anyway why a proper Dark Lord didn't try to get every possible enemy out of the way, instead of choosing the one he considers to be the most likely. And there's also the fact that one of Dumbledore's spies *CoughSnapeCough*, told him, that Voldemort planned to kill the Potters. Surely, after the prophecy you should mean that Dumbledore already knew that Voldemort planned to kill the Potters, so maybe there's more to it, that we don't know so far, which really explains why Voldemort chose Harry over Neville.

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Aud Duck - Sep 10, 2004 11:32 am (#595 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
We may be taking the phrase too literally. It's entirely possible that Voldemort was intending to kill them both. But he did have to choose which one to kill first. So maybe he chose to kill Harry before Neville because Harry looked more dangerous and needed to be gotten rid of whilst a helpless infant. Then, Voldemort could turn his energies to killing the less threatening Neville. Of course, this is just Dumbledore's interpretation of Voldemort's actions. It is possilbe that, as I suggested in my previous post, the opportunity presented itself and Voldemort siezed it.

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Hogs Head - Sep 11, 2004 4:50 pm (#596 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Of course I do not know who will die in Books 6 or 7. If I did, wouldn't I want to forget it so that Books 6 and 7 would be a good read? Any surely I would not tell anyone on this Forum, for that would be that maximum poopy SPOILER for everyone.

It could be Neville, though exactly because he is such a dear, sweet, person.

I made another Lonesome Dove reference a few days ago, so this will be my last for a while. Recall in that fabled TV mini-series how many dear sweet beloved characters were laid on the altar for the sake of enduring fiction? Yes, that could happen here, too. So, button up your overcoats, dear ones. I just want the Books to unfold as the artist has conceived it.

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Aud Duck - Sep 12, 2004 8:48 am (#597 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I agree that beloved characters will die. I think the characters with the best chances of survival are those that we are not very attached to. In fact, all of my favourite characters (Mrs. Weasely, Hagrid, Neville, Dumbledore, and Lupin) are on the top row in my mental list of who is most likely to die.

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Murphy - Sep 22, 2004 4:04 pm (#598 of 1448)

nelville was using his father's wand until the end of OotP, when someone stepped on it and it broke in two. we know that each wizard has a wand that fits him...i think nelville finding the "right" wand (probably in the next book) will also be an incredibly important reason he improves. with a 'bad'--by bad, i mean not the wand perfect for him--of course nelville is going to botch spells.

sorry if someone said this already...

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Aud Duck - Sep 22, 2004 4:17 pm (#599 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
That was my reaction to the revelation that Neville was not using his own wand. What was his grandmother thinking?! Not only does it doom a lot of Neville's schoolwork, it also forces Neville to constantly remember that he is not the wizard his father was. I also notice that Neville's best subject is Herbology, which probably does not require much wand use. One more reason to think that Neville will really come into his own in book 6.

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Phoenix song - Sep 22, 2004 4:32 pm (#600 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
As clumsy as Neville is prone to being, I'm surprised that he hasn't gotten his wand broken before now. I mean, let's face it, how many cauldrons has he melted?

I do think that the new wand is going to make positive changes in Neville's magical abilities. Combined with his progression last year (possibly aided by the mimbulus mimbletonia), I think that he will become a formidable wizard in his own right.

"That was my reaction to the revelation that Neville was not using his own wand. What was his grandmother thinking?!"

It may have been hard for her not to have her son's wand passed down to her grandson. People don't always think clearly when the death of a loved one is involved. Grief could have blinded her to what was right for Neville instead of what was right for herself.

Barbie

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Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:24 am

Classicsquid592 - Sep 22, 2004 9:59 pm (#601 of 1448)
Murphey, Go back to post 521, in this thread and also in a few recent parts of the wands thread, there are a few discussions on what the nature of Neville's new wands might be. But remember, there are many of my posts involved in them which means that the predictions are probably wrong. (Or possibly not, I did not become really involved in the series until a midnight party for book 5 during which I read all of the books for the first time, so I do not yet know of my skills, if I have any, as a seer. :-) )
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Her-melanie - Sep 23, 2004 6:25 am (#602 of 1448)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
I searched for this before posting and didn't find it anywhere; sorry if it has been brought up already. Perhaps Neville's parents aren't Neville's real parents. The theory has been put forth by someone already that Harry and Neville are twins (they have the same birthday) or they were switched at birth or something. If Frank Longbottom is not Neville's real dad, that could be why he has such poor results with his dad's wand. His new wand will be interesting, I think.

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Gerald Costales - Sep 23, 2004 6:39 am (#603 of 1448)

Her-melanie - I doubt Harry and Neville are twins. (Now, Albus and Aberforth is another matter.) ;-)

Back to Classicsquid592' post #521, (hope you don't mine me summarizing this Classic) I believe his main point is that with Neville's wand broken; Neville will of course get a new wand. But, not just any wand but a third wand with a Fawkes' Feather core. (Tom Riddle and Harry own the other two wands with a Fawkes' Feather core.)

I've posted that this new wand and the fact that Neville could have been the "ONE" mentioned in the Prophecy, Neville was born on July 30th and the Longbottoms thrice defied Voldermort, is important to the defeating of Voldermort. ;-) GC

PS Classicsquid592 - don't short change yourself I think that your post #521 was fantastic and inspired me to write my post about Neville. We should tag team more often. ;-) GC

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Julia. - Sep 23, 2004 8:00 am (#604 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Her-melanie,this theory is better discussed on the Long Theory Thread, so if you haven't yet, you should check it out.

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Gerald Costales - Oct 2, 2004 6:37 am (#605 of 1448)

Read the Long Theory. Still not convinced that Harry and Neville are Twins. But, if Neville gets a new oak wand than there could be some connection with Neville and Harry.

Neville could have been the "ONE" mentioned in the Prophecy but Voldermort marked Harry as is equal.

Neville as a person is getting more confident. I believe he'll be more important in Book 6. Neville was also at the Battle at the Ministry of Magic. I believe all the students at that Battle will become more important in books 6 and 7. ;-) GC

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Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 3, 2004 5:43 am (#606 of 1448)

I love reading the progress that Neville has made over the five years of school, especially in book 5. I too am of the opinion that once Neville gets a new wand, his own wand, in HBP he will only get stronger.

My theory is that he will be the one to finish Bellatrix, but Harry will destroy the Big V. But I do think that they play a very large part in each others lives, maybe they will fight side by side against the Big V & Bella.

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Agramante - Oct 3, 2004 6:41 pm (#607 of 1448)

I'm not sure about any theories making Harry and Neville twins or switchlings...there's been too much already in the books about family resemblances. Harry has his mother's eyes...and not a word about any resemblance he'd have had with Neville. But about the wands...I wonder how Harry'd have done with his father's wand, the supple, what, oak one? It was longer and somewhat different from Harry's...there's an old saying that the blood runs thin from father to son. Who's to say Harry'd have been able to do as much with James' wand as with his own? For all these reasons I think we'll see Neville really come into his own as a wizard with his own wand. Often made me wonder...what kind of a cheapskate is his grandmother, not to buy Neville a lousy wand, when she, as a witch, must know how important it is for the wand to choose him? Buying his own wand will be something of a rite of passage for good old Neville.

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Phoenix song - Oct 4, 2004 2:50 am (#608 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
If Neville is Harry's twin, as the Long Theory follows, then he is not being shown in his true form at the present time. The theory follows that Neville was transformed to look like the Longbottoms' still born child. Therefore Harry and Neville would be the same on the inside though they look different on the outside. (As in the two bottles of Nettle wine in the potion puzzle in SS/PS.) Please look at the Long Theory thread for more detailed information.

Barbie

EDIT: If this theory is valid, and Neville is transformed back to his original appearance, wouldn't it be weird to have two mirror images of Harry...one with a scar and one without a scar? One twin would be marked and another would be "the spare". Odd thought!

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 4, 2004 5:31 am (#609 of 1448)

Well, at least everybody would be able to distinguish them. But I don't think they are twins. I think they are twin characters, in the way that there fates mirror each other somehow, but not that they are related by blood.

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LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2004 5:47 am (#610 of 1448)

I agree with you, Neville. I think Harry and Neville are twins via the prophecy - not physical twins. Harry is marked and Neville is unmarked (for now).

But, even if they were physical twins, they could have been fraternal and not identical. Fraternal twins do not have to look like the other (although they can look similar).

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Czarina II - Oct 4, 2004 7:33 am (#611 of 1448)

Gran Longbottom probably gave Neville Frank's old wand because she WANTED him to be exactly like his father. She was likely distressed at losing her son and wanted Neville to be his replacement -- in essence, for Neville to be Frank. Such a thing could have clouded her judgement where she ordinarily would have bought Neville his own wand.

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LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2004 7:48 am (#612 of 1448)

Do you think we'll hear about Gran Longbottom's reaction to the DoM fight? I'm sure that Dumbledore had to write all the parents/guardians of the involved and let them know what had happened. Hearing how Neville stood by Harry and fought the good fight might make Gran change her mind about Neville.

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Tessa's Dad - Oct 4, 2004 7:50 am (#613 of 1448)

Tired Old Bat Bogey
Neville’s first wand could have been passed down through the generations. It may well have belonged to Granny’s husband or even her father. If Gran expected Neville to uphold the family name, she could believe that the best wand for Neville was the one she gave him. After all, it’s been in the family for ages.

As far as the belief of the wand choosing the wizard, we only have Ollivander’s word for that. Let’s remember that Ollivander is a maker and seller of wands. It’s not in the best interest of his business to have wands passed down through the generations.

Gran Longbottom may well believe that the wand chose Neville simply because it’s the family’s wand. If was good enough for Daddy, it’s good enough for Neville.

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therealscabbers - Oct 4, 2004 7:51 am (#614 of 1448)

Petra t
It would cheat us as readers, IMO to have Neville kill Voldie, Harry is the hero not Neville otherwise the books should be Neville Longbottom and the ...... Harry and Neville are definately NOT twins.

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Ann - Oct 4, 2004 2:43 pm (#615 of 1448)

Tessa's Dad: "Let’s remember that Ollivander is a maker and seller of wands. It’s not in the best interest of his business to have wands passed down through the generations."

Very good point! And we saw in GoF that he doesn't seem to think much of non-Ollivander wands. Still, I think we are supposed to believe what he says, and his scenes are a mine of important information.

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Aud Duck - Oct 4, 2004 3:55 pm (#616 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Yes, very good point about Mr. Ollivander. We actually don't know much about wands being passed down. How often would it happen, really? The vast majority of people have living parents when they go to school, often even living grandparents, and that would be more pronounced in the WW, where people live longer. So if you were to pass down a wand, you would nearly always need to pass on a great grandparent's wand, by which time the blood is running pretty thin (after all, you have eight great grandparents, as opposed to two parents). And how many people would choose to do that? All the same, I am inclined to think that having his own wand will make a big difference for Neville.

I tend to agree with Neville about Harry and Neville being twins. And, above all, what would be the POINT of having them be twins? I think the basic idea presented in the long theory works just as well if Neville and Harry are twins in a spiritual way, if not by blood.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 5, 2004 4:19 am (#617 of 1448)

Looneyluna,
I hope when Gran gets the letter she doesn't criticize Neville for not being perfect. It's just that she is so used to pointing out his shortcomings she may do it out of habit.

For once she's gotten a letter complimenting Neville. It may even bring a tear to her eye.

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Dr Filibuster - Oct 5, 2004 10:44 am (#618 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Well, she cried when Nev got his Hogwarts letter.

I think she'll be shocked, worried but proud to discover what her grandson got up to at the MoM.

Do you think she'll treat him differently now? Allow him to grow up? Will he have even more confidence when he returns for his sixth year? Hopefully he gained some good OWLs and this will boost his self-esteem.

Do you think he is looking forward to no Snape? Perhaps he fancies being an auror too, like his parents. He could be at Hogwarts summer school with Harry; swotting up at the Potions masterclass ready for his OWL re-sit.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 5, 2004 1:08 pm (#619 of 1448)

Oh, but I'm waiting to hear that Neville got an Outstanding on his Potion O.W.L!

He did fine at the practical without Snape breathing down his neck, and being good at things like herbology probably helped him on the written portion. Besides, just imagine Snape's shock at hearing Neville got an Outstanding. And there are other careers besides Auror that are also up Neville's alley , like maybe Healer, that also require skill in potion making.

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Aud Duck - Oct 5, 2004 2:35 pm (#620 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I don't ever see poor Neville getting an O in Potions, though I think it's quite likely he got one in Herbology and on the DADA practical. I would love to see him get an E, though. I would guess that Neville was averaging P in his classes, so an E would be wonderful for him anyway. He'd probably be elated if he just managed a pass. But then, Neville is good at Herbology, which strikes me as something that would require similar skills. And I see him taking a path that would require potions. He has got to be in the class somehow, if only to keep the nice Potions class scenes going. So maybe he will get E in his practical and O in his written and the examiners will average it to an O-, which would then force Snape to take Neville into his class.

Oh, goodness. I'm contradicting my own theories. Best stop before I do more damage to them.

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Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 11:42 am (#621 of 1448)

Back in business
Dr Filibuster -> Do you think [Neville's Gran will] treat him differently now? Allow him to grow up?

I think Gran Longbottom will be very please to discover what her grandson did in the MoM battle. I also believe she'll push her expectation even higher and poor Neville will have hard times to be up to his Gran's brand new ambitions for him. And if he gets good marks for his OWL, he'll have no choice but to become either Auror or Minister for Magic!

Dr Filibuster -> Will he have even more confidence when he returns for his sixth year?

I think he will. To the question "Will Neville have a bigger part to play?" Jo answered "I think he's already got a much bigger part. Neville has changed a lot as he's become older and more confident. Book five was a real turning point for Neville." and to the question "Will Harry tell Neville about the Prophesy?" she answered "Harry will tell his nearest and dearest about the prophecy when he's ready. He needs time to digest the news himself first". So I think we'll see Neville hang around with Harry regularly in the next books and they could meet over summer for more than a simple glimpse. (Edit : I hope Harry will go to Neville birthday party with Ron and Hermione, we never saw a wizarding birthday)

Dr Filibuster -> Hopefully he gained some good OWLs and this will boost his self-esteem.

Herbology for sure and DADA too, as he was second only to Hermione and Harry in the end of the DA. McGonagall said his only problem was lack of confidence, maybe his progress in DA boosted his self confidence enough to make him achieve good mark in every OWLs.

Dr Filibuster -> Do you think he is looking forward to no Snape? Perhaps he fancies being an Auror too, like his parents. He could be at Hogwarts summer school with Harry; swotting up at the Potions masterclass ready for his OWL re-sit.

I believe he don't want to become Auror like his parents, just because his Gran always compares him to his father, becoming Auror will make it even worst. I also believe he's looking forward to no Snape. But if he gets good enough marks For his OWLs, I'm sure his Gran will push him to become Auror, especially now that he fought DE. She could force him to re-sit his Potion OWL if that's the only thing that prevent Neville to become Auror.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 8, 2004 12:12 pm (#622 of 1448)

"Anyone can cook"
If Neville does earn a seat in NEWT Potions, I am willing to bet he will take it. Why? To rub Snape's nose in it, if nothing else. Also to face his fears and prove him the stronger.

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 8, 2004 1:02 pm (#623 of 1448)

I don't think Neville will have an O in potions, even without Snape glaring at him. But if he does, I agree that he would take Potions. He is not the type not to face the "problem". But I hope he won't become an auror unless he really wants it and it really suits him. He is not Frank and I don't really want him to have the same profession as Frank.

Another question, that has a bit to do with Neville? When do you think will Harry learn to apparate? I doubt it will be at Hogwarts, since most students seem to do it in the holidays. Do you think Harry and Neville will take the apparating lessons together, since their birthdays are that close.

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Dr Filibuster - Oct 8, 2004 1:06 pm (#624 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
That sounds like a great start to book 7. Perhaps they'll arrange to meet up at the end of Half Blood Prince?

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legolas - Feb 14, 2005 8:15 am (#625 of 1448)

I can see this as a way of Voldy getting to Harry.

I do not think that we know about enough about Neville to know what career he would like to end up in. We know he is good at Herbology and is scared senseless of Snape. He does better when he is not around. If its a matter of confidence-does he have that confidence in his studies. He has shown a massive improvement in Defence. Is he smart enough to be an Auror?

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Dr Filibuster - Oct 8, 2004 1:26 pm (#626 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Maybe not.

To be honest, I hope he doesn't try and copy his parents' career choice; especially if he is pressured into doing so.

I'd love to know what he discussed with McGonagall during his careers advice.

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legolas - Oct 8, 2004 1:28 pm (#627 of 1448)

I would have liked to be a fly on the wall in all the lead characters in the book had the career interview.

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Ann - Oct 8, 2004 1:36 pm (#628 of 1448)

A question that I don't think has been raised about Neville: Why isn't Voldemort after him as much as he's after Harry? If he's so concerned with the prophecy, he must surely be aware that Neville was also "born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies." It is true that his attack on Harry backfired and caused him 13 years of disembodied grief, but has he simply decided that the prophecy is about Harry because the MoM says so? Because Harry was able to take it off the table? (Would Neville also have been able to remove it, I wonder?) Neville doesn't seem to be anywhere near as well protected as Harry is (although I suspect his Gran is magically pretty skilled, not someone Voldemort would want to mess with).

But you would think Dumbledore would be a bit concerned about protecting Neville, too. And perhaps, given his experience with Harry, he should have a little talk with him about the prophecy, too. Voldemort doesn't know that by marking Harry as his equal, he has caused him to be the "one" in the prophecy. And he doesn't seem to be the type to be shy about killing anyone he thinks might be a threat to him. Why has Voldemort not gone after Neville?

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Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 1:41 pm (#629 of 1448)

Back in business
Because he doesn't want the AK to back fire again, and Harry have already defied him four times, liking it or not, Voldemort have to consider him as his equal. Plus, Voldemort tends to overlook details.

Edit : But maybe after the MoM battle Voldemort will reconsider Neville.

I'm not sure for Neville choosing Potions if he get the marks, maybe the old Neville is too deeply established in my mind so I can't imagine him taking potion if he don't want to (unless his Gran make him know how disappointed she will be if he doesn't).
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Ann - Oct 8, 2004 1:45 pm (#630 of 1448)

But Voldemort doesn't know the prophecy says he will mark "the one" as his equal. And given his horror of death (his own, I mean), I would think that, based on what he knows, Neville would be worth attacking. Does Neville know this?

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 8, 2004 1:49 pm (#631 of 1448)

"Would Neville also have been able to remove it, I wonder?"

I think not. Only those to whom the prophecy refers can take it without suffering severe damage. The Prophecy labeled SPT to APWBD referred only to the Dark Lord and the one who had the power to defeat him. The Unspeakables must have had a way to listen to the prophecy even if they couldn't touch it, or perhaps APWBD himself told them that Harry Potter fulfilled the terms of the prophecy.

As for how Voldemort figured out that Harry was the one... I have no doubt that there were DEs among the Unspeakables who were quite happy to inform him whose name was on the label. Even if there weren't, Voldemort would still know that Harry was "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord", having learned it the hard way...

Still, oversight of the other candidate might prove lethal for him...

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Ann - Oct 8, 2004 2:01 pm (#632 of 1448)

But the prophecy did refer to Neville originally (along with Harry). It was only when Voldemort marked him that Harry truly became "the one," or at least that seems to be Dumbledore's opinion. Even so, there is, as I recall, still a question mark on the label. So it could be that Neville could have taken it, too, since it referred to both of them at the time that it was made (which is the time that is recorded in the globe itself). And, in fact, there is still the potential for it to refer to Neville.

My secret suspicion here is that, if Voldemort goes after Neville, he may end up marking him as his equal, too. And then where will we be?

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Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 2:14 pm (#633 of 1448)

Back in business
Voldemort is looking for "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord [...] born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies". There are two possibilities, Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. As Jo told us, "Voldemort identified more with the half-blood boy and therefore decided he must be the greater risk.", he made Wormtail his ally and finally got pass the Potters protection, killed James, killed Lily, but couldn't kill Harry, he lost his body instead. He lived in Albania, waiting for his supporter to come to his help, finally Quirrel came and at the end of the year, Quirrel is killed by the same magic that protected Harry back in 1981. Back in Albania for two years, then Wormtail came back. Voldy worked a plan to get a body back, it worked and he had overcame to magic that saved Harry twice and everything went wrong again, Harry escaped. Now he want the prophecy badly, he want to know what went wrong the first time. And since he can't afford to fight two Harry Potter at a time ...

If he get a hand on the full prophecy, Neville will become a priority, but he just can't afford a Godric Hollow II but being careless with another potential boy who live.

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Her-melanie - Oct 8, 2004 3:50 pm (#634 of 1448)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
I think it is a possibility that Voldemort never completely forgot about Neville. I am very suspicious of Neville's Uncle Algie, and the mimbulus mimbletonia he received. Bode, the Unspeakable, received a plant that killed him; perhaps that was a clue for us to suspect Neville's Mim Mim. We don't really know enough about Neville to know what steps were taken to protect him.

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Steve Newton - Oct 8, 2004 4:00 pm (#635 of 1448)

Librarian
As i recall it while on the shelf the prophecy said HP? It does not rule out Neville. Whoever put on the label was not sure of Harry.

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Aud Duck - Oct 8, 2004 4:23 pm (#636 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think the question mark after the Harry Potter makes it a possibility. Notice that no one ever handles the prophecy except harry and Neville. I'm still not sure I subscribe to that theory, though.

Her-melanie--I doubt that the Mimbulus Mimbletonia is dangerous. Neville, wanting to be a good plant owner, would have looked it up to see what it was. He certainly knew that it could defend itself with stinksap. Plus, he mentioned that he was going to show it to Professor Sprout. True, we are not sure that he did this, but I think it is likely, and she certainly would have noticed if he had brought in something potentially dangerous. But as to the main point of your post, I am a bit suspicious of Uncle Algy as well. Anyone that would dangle a kid out of an upstairs window to try to scare some magic out of him...

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Phoenix song - Oct 8, 2004 4:46 pm (#637 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I'm not positive that the mimbulus is so innocent. There was a similarly named plant at JKR's college that kind of "took over" the place. I think that it was a great nuisance and wasn't favored at all. It's definitely something to watch!

Barbie

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Ladybug220 - Oct 8, 2004 5:13 pm (#638 of 1448)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Going back to Neville taking potions, I think that if Neville can take potions he will. He is very good at herbology so I can see him as a healer rather than a auror. He might find/concoct a potion that helps cure or at least improves his parents' condition.

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Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 5:15 pm (#639 of 1448)

Back in business
In my UK version of OoP, the prophecy is labelled :

S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D.
Dark Lord
and (?)Harry Potter

It looks like the keeper of the prophecies have written Dark Lord and (?) and added afterward Harry Potter. Just as Dumbledore said : "The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child, it seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring."

Is there a different typography in the US version.

Edit : There's no space between (?) and Harry Potter in the book, if it's a typo, it's not mine.

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Steve Newton - Oct 8, 2004 6:31 pm (#640 of 1448)

Librarian
Tomoé, thanks for the correction. In the future I will try not to quote without the text in front of me.

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Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 6:44 pm (#641 of 1448)

Back in business
No need to be ashamed. If you don't have the books handly or are too lazy to search, just ask for the quote, there's a lot of insufferable know-it-all who will be proud to be the first to provide it (yes, I'm one of those). ^_^

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 10, 2004 6:14 am (#642 of 1448)

I can see Voldemort going after Neville in Book 6.

Voldemort wanted to get his hands on the prophecy in Book 5 to find out where he'd gone wrong when he decided to kill Harry. Keep in mind that he still doesn't know since he still hasn't heard it. I think it's possible that he might decide his big mistake was going after the wrong person.

That would increase the dramatic tension, after all. Everyone worrying about Harry when the next target is really poor Neville!

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Ann - Oct 10, 2004 1:39 pm (#643 of 1448)

Yes, but what I'm worried about is, what happens if Voldemort manages to mark Neville as his equal, too? Then who is the "one who has the power"?

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 10, 2004 9:02 pm (#644 of 1448)

Yikes! Would Neville's mom have to die protecting Neville for Neville to be marked as Voldemorts equal? As a mom, I really must protest! :-)

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Ann - Oct 11, 2004 9:42 am (#645 of 1448)

I can't imagine it would happen the same way--but I do wonder if something will happen to Neville in an encounter with Voldemort that will cast doubt on DD's interpretation of the prophecy. (I still think it will be Harry in the end, since they're his books, but DD doesn't know that.) And think how pleased Neville's gran would be if he survived an encounter with Voldemort!

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 11, 2004 9:46 am (#646 of 1448)

You're right about that! "Maybe you're a chip off the old block after all, sonny!" :-)

How do you think Neville might survive an attack from LV?

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 11, 2004 10:03 am (#647 of 1448)

Fawkes might shed another feather, and Neville might get the wand with that feather.

If so, Harry could teach him about Priori Incantatem.

But the prophecy most definitely refers to Harry. If Neville had the power to defeat the Dark Lord, then Harry would not. (There can be only one.) And if Harry did not, then he would have suffered severe damage when he tried to pick up the prophecy.

On the other hand, are we absolutely certain that he DIDN'T suffer severe damage afterwards? Might the fight with the DEs and everything afterwards have been a delusion?

Keep in mind that he still doesn't know since he still hasn't heard it.

Harry does know it, and I am absolutely sure that if Harry can gain insight into Voldemort's thoughts and feelings, Voldemort can gain insight into Harry's.

Unless Harry masters Occlumency quickly, Voldemort will learn that Harry knows the prophecy and get that information from him.

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Ann - Oct 11, 2004 11:14 am (#648 of 1448)

I think the prophecy is about Harry, too; but when it was made (bottled in that little sphere), it might have been about either. So whether it would have hurt either Harry or Neville depends upon who put the protective spells upon the globe: if it is inherent in the prophecy itself, probably either could take it; if it was someone at the MoM, presumably only Harry could.

Since DD and in fact the entire Order of the Phoenix are dedicated to the protection of the prophecy (to the extent of mounting round the clock guards at the DoM), surely DD would not have overlooked the possibility that Voldemort might read it in Harry's mind, if that were possible. I mean, he's supposed to be smart, and Harry has told him that he didn't really even try with occlumency; if it were important, I would have thought DD would have told him (at least) to keep working on it.

But this may be why Harry's stay at 4 Privet Drive is so short, of course.

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Leprechaun Jack - Oct 13, 2004 4:54 am (#649 of 1448)

The cow says...moo, the sheep says...baa, and the Bear says WOOF.
This whole discussion brings me back to the point of Neville being under a memory charm. His Gran might have placed a charm on him and making him forget about his parents attack and in the process also stunting his powers.

Now she goes on and on to anyone who will listen how Neville is not the Wizard that his father was and how he not very talented and so on. So if Voldy or any of the Death Eaters come looking for Neville as a possible threat they all realize that he is a poor wizard and no threat whatsoever.

This is reinforced in school the whole flying incident (in front of Draco)breaking his wrist, and in potions (in front of Draco) melting his 6th cauldron.

Everyone now knows that he is a lame wizard and no threat to the Dork Lard hence he has been left alone.

And think about this- It's not until the Fake Moody shows the class the cruico that we start to see a change in Neville and then later in OOP when the Death Eaters escape from Azkaban that Neville really focus's his power and starts to really show himself as a wizard with some power.

Ok that was very long and rambling but do you get the drift of what I saying?

Jack

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Her-melanie - Oct 13, 2004 5:40 am (#650 of 1448)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
Lep. Jack, what you said about Neville changing when fake Moody put the Cruciatus Curse on him reminded me of something. In GoF, when Ron and Harry are making up predictions for Divination class, Ron jokingly says that Harry will be betrayed by someone he thinks is a friend. I think this scene in the book should be looked at closely. I think that is a hint that he WILL be betrayed in 6 or 7, but originally I thought it would be Ron, Hermione, or Hagrid. Now I include Neville. Who's to say that Neville's progress is not something to do with an Imperius Curse? Also, there's the suspicious mim mim. There is certainly evidence for each character I mentioned to be the one, but that is not for this thread.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 651 to 700)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:25 am

Paulus Maximus - Oct 13, 2004 4:21 pm (#651 of 1448)
"Who's to say that Neville's progress is not something to do with an Imperius Curse?"

What's the point of putting Neville under Imperius to learn stuff that he would learn of his own free will anyway? The news of Bella's escape was cause enough for him to learn.

Unless there was something that Neville wasn't good at... but all I can think of is the Patronus charm, and we all know why he can't think of a happy memory... Even if he could, a memory charm is much simpler than Imperius (and less illegal, too.)

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Her-melanie - Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am (#652 of 1448)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
That was only an example, Paulus. I just meant that I don't rule out outside forces influencing Neville.

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Aud Duck - Oct 14, 2004 4:31 pm (#653 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I don't think that Neville is currently being influenced. As far as we know, it is impossible to improve someone else's magical ability, and I don't see anything else odd about Neville's situation. I think he is a likely candidate for the future, but at the moment, his behaviour is not suspicious. It seems to me that the only reason to influence Neville would be to get information from Harry. But Neville has not, thus far, attempted to get into Harry's confidence. He has not even started hanging out with HRH more often, which would be the first step.

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Ginevra-Weasley - Oct 15, 2004 4:14 am (#654 of 1448)

The Dumbledore of muggles
I too don't think that Neville can betray Harry even in my wildest of dreams.By the way does anyone thinks that Neville can turn out to be a quidditch talent. Remember that Ron said in PS"Neville will play quidditch for England if Hagrid let's DD down";and Ron's jokes often turn out to be real.

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Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 4:49 am (#655 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
I don't think that Neville would knowingly betray Harry. Neville was adamant, even with the threat of Crucio, for Harry to refuse to give up the prophecy.

I think he is made of the same steel as his parents. I don't think his parents gave their torturers information, either, and their minds broke before their wills did.

Ron jokingly says that Harry will be betrayed by someone he thinks is a friend. I think this scene in the book should be looked at closely. I think that is a hint that he WILL be betrayed in 6 or 7, but originally I thought it would be Ron, Hermione, or Hagrid. --Her-Melanie

Well, this already has come true. Ron himself let Harry down in GoF. Seamus was rude to him in OoP, and Marietta betrayed the whole of the DA, with Harry as the acknowledged leader. It could continue to come true, but I don't see Neville as the perpetrator.

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Steve Newton - Oct 15, 2004 5:21 am (#656 of 1448)

Librarian
Somehow I don't think that Seamus being rude is a betrayal. Marietta betrayed but I would not have called her a friend. Harry hardly knew her. Ron may have let Harry down and argued with him but I recall no betrayal.

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TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:05 am (#657 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
Catherine, I believe the betrayal you refer to would be the time between the names coming out of the Goblet of Fire and the conclusion of the first task when Ron refused to believe that Harry had not put his name in the goblet.

Back to Lord Voldemort and the prophecy relating to Neville.

I suspect that Lord Voldemort may decide that he can not afford to take a chance on Neville hanging around. I assume that he had always intended to kill both of them and merely attempted Harry first. I imagine he will be circumspect enough to send a flunkie to do Neville in though, why risk the same thing happening again?

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Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 7:10 am (#658 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
That will be interesting, to see if Neville "shows up" on Voldemort's or DE's radar.

I've always wondered if there was more to the torture of Neville's parents than just the stated reason of finding Voldemort after his downfall, except that no one seems to think that the Prophecy could have referred to Neville.

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TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:45 am (#659 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
Something on another thread sparked this thought.

If I needed a secret keeper, I'd choose Neville Longbottom.

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Aud Duck - Oct 15, 2004 8:09 pm (#660 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Me, too. Like Catherine, I don't see Neville ever cracking under pressure. The fact that a broken-nosed and trapped Neville could face Bella--fully aware of the consequences of being crucioed by her--and tell Harry not to give up the prophecy (the significance of which is a mystery to him) proves to me that he is one of the very strongest characters in the series. People often point out the similarities between Peter and Neville, but there is a fundamental difference between the two. Neville has proven his worth several times in the books. I doubt that Wormtail would have even have had the courage to stand up to his friends when he thought they were out of line, much less stand up to a host of Death Eaters. There probably is a new Wormtail for this generation, but I don't think it is Neville. I would trust Neville with almost anything.

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Leprechaun Jack - Oct 16, 2004 12:42 am (#661 of 1448)

The cow says...moo, the sheep says...baa, and the Bear says WOOF.

Neville comes from what seems to be a very old powerful pure blood family. Yet almost every mention of him throughout the books has always been what a poor wizard he is. However he keeps on keepin' on which I see as very brave in the face of Snape and all of the Slytherns who continually harass him,he takes it on the chin and still shows up at potions, in flying,to the DA,to the MOM.

A very brave Gryffindor indeed, I've had a soft spot for Neville from the very beginning and as his character has progressed I've also gotten the feeling that he is going to become more important.

I don't know how or why but I think Neville has something to do with HBP.

Jack

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Albus-Dumbledore - Oct 16, 2004 3:18 am (#662 of 1448)

You shall not harm Harry Potter

TomProffitt:If I needed a secret keeper, I'd choose Neville Longbottom.I am afraid that Neville's memory is too poor for him to be a good secret keeper.

On the other hand I agree with Leprechaun Jack that neville may have to do something with HBP.

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Aud Duck - Oct 16, 2004 11:26 am (#663 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I am afraid that Neville's memory is too poor for him to be a good secret keeper.--Albus-Dumbledore

There is a big difference between forgetting the password to Gryfindor Tower and forgetting a secret important enough to warrant a Fidelius charm. The former is just normal absentmindedness, which does not necessarily mean that Neville would not be able to remember something important.
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haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 2:56 pm (#664 of 1448)

I think his poor memory would be an asset if he were a Secret Keeper!

How hard could it be to keep a secret that you don't remember!

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Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 17, 2004 8:27 pm (#665 of 1448)

I think Neville would be a great secret keeper, simply because he is one of the most loyal characters in the books. General forgetfulness does not a fool make.

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therealscabbers - Oct 18, 2004 7:55 am (#666 of 1448)

Petra t
I am with Haymoni, forgetfullness, or at least a reputation for forgetfulness would make you an ideal secret keeper - I am dyslexic and it is a little known fact that this is/can be largely a problem with memory as such I have a memory that makes Neville look like a mastermind!! and people know this! but if I really have to remember something, like an address, I can. But if someone was wondering who held the secret to the address they certainly wouldn't come to me as they would assume, as Albus did, that I would never be trusted to remember it! so wouldn't come to me and even if they did I could quite believably say "well they did tell me but I cant remember now!!"

Neville too would have this benefit - I often wonder if he too is Dyslexic - often linked to poor memory, academic achievement, clumsiness etc and undiagnosed dyslexic children are often put down by parents who are unaware of the problem. Think this is why I identify with him so much!

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TomProffitt - Oct 22, 2004 4:53 pm (#667 of 1448)

Bullheaded empiricist
I had a friend in college who has dysgraphia. We made him memorize the greek alphabet (as we did all pledges) when we inducted him into an Honorary fraternity. He claims this cost him his memory of the English alphabet.

I had never linked these kinds of things to Neville before. I had assumed it was trauma connected with the fate of his parents.

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Aud Duck - Oct 22, 2004 8:27 pm (#668 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think the trauma might have made a pre-existing tendency worse, but there is no reason that it might not just be an ordinary thing like Dyslexia. Neville does not seem to me to be so exaggeratedly forgetful that any outside factors need be taken into account. I doubt that JKR set out to write Neville with Dyslexia, but now that he's been created, I think it's a reasonable diagnosis. I am not, technically, Dyslexic, but it seems to be only a matter of the severity of my Dyslexic traits. Neville reminds me a lot of myself. He forgets to skip the trick step, forgets the password to Gryffindor tower, and loses things. I walk into poles, have to try two or three combinations before I can unlock my bicycle, and...er...lose things. I also wonder if this has something to do with his problems in school. I agree with McGonagall that his main problem is lack of confidence, but I also notice that Hogwarts students are expected to do a lot of reading, something most Dyslexics do very slowly. I almost never was up to date on my Psychology readings last year because it took me so long to read them. My friend could do it in half an hour. It took me three. What is not supposed to be a big assignment becomes one when it takes you that long to read the preliminary material. With poor Neville facing that in all his classes, it's no wonder he has trouble.

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therealscabbers - Oct 25, 2004 6:41 am (#669 of 1448)

Petra t
I am not sure JKR didnt have dyslexic traits in mind when she wrote Neville's character after all she was a teacher and so has probably come across dyslexic students before and she has tried to create a role model for all sorts of students - the bullied, poor, clever etc so why not Dyslexic or otherwise learning disabled?

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Aud Duck - Oct 25, 2004 1:53 pm (#670 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think she probably had the sort of student she wanted to write about in mind. It's just that I doubt she set out to depict someone with a specific learning disability. But really, we're saying the same thing. I am saying she meant to depict someone with traits often associated with Dyslexia; you're saying she meant to write someone with Dyslexia. The end result is the same, because the learning disability is still there, even if it is not recognized for what it is.

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Tessa's Dad - Nov 2, 2004 7:25 am (#671 of 1448)

Tired Old Bat Bogey
Could it be that Neville has not been losing things, but that Draco has been stealing things from Neville for years? I’m thinking of a scenario where the Malfoys and Longbottoms have adjoining estates. I’m fairly certain that the Malfoys would have nothing good to say about the Longbottoms and Draco would believe that Neville’s possessions were fair game. For years Draco could have been sending one of his house elves over to Neville’s to steal whatever Draco covets.

Maybe Trevor is a Watch Toad given to Neville for the purpose of watching Draco?

I’m going to post this in the Draco, Neville, and Toads, Rabbits and Other Incidental, Small Animals threads.

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Elanor - Nov 2, 2004 9:30 am (#672 of 1448)

This is an idea Tessa's Dad! I always thought that there were more about Trevor than meet the eye... I especially like the idea of the Longbottoms and the Malfoys being neighbours. We know that Neville is pure-blood, which shows that he belongs to an old family of wizards, certainly as old as Draco's.

So, even if they're not neighbours, these families MUST know each other very well and, according to Grand-Ma's point of view, the latter certainly ignores them. I see Grand-Ma to be hard on those ex-DE-but-free-to-harm-because-sitted-on-a-pile-of-gold very well! On the other hand, the Malfoys certainly despise the Longbottoms and I perfectly see them making fun of Neville's clumsiness and "hidden" powers. Which means that, since their first day at Hogwarts, and maybe even before, Draco and Neville knew exactly what to expect from the other. Hence Draco's behaviour from the start of Hogwarts. Hence maybe some secret watcher for informing a suspicious grand-mother too...

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Tessa's Dad - Nov 2, 2004 9:36 am (#673 of 1448)

Tired Old Bat Bogey
Oooohhhh! Could Trevor really be Great Uncle Algie? Could Algie be another animagus?

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Elanor - Nov 2, 2004 10:09 am (#674 of 1448)

LOL! Why not? I like this idea! BTW, how long does a toad live normally? If it was a real toad, wouldn't it ne dead already?

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Tessa's Dad - Nov 2, 2004 10:15 am (#675 of 1448)

Tired Old Bat Bogey
How long does a toad live? Well….. my ex-wife is 45!

I’m soorrrry. I hate slamming my ears in the oven door. It’s not the pain; I’m starting to like that part. It’s the bending over seeing all the dirt on my floor. Not only do my ears hurt, now I have to mop the floor. I’m just doomed to the life of a House Elf.

Toddles off in search of a S.P.E.W. badge.

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Tomoé - Nov 2, 2004 12:28 pm (#676 of 1448)

Back in business
The life span of Common Toads in captivity may be as high as 20-40 years, but in the wild, it is more likely to be 10 - 12 years. (Offwell Woodland & Wildlife Trust)

So Trevor is still pretty young.

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Phoenix song - Nov 2, 2004 4:46 pm (#677 of 1448)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Tessa's Dad: "Oooohhhh! Could Trevor really be Great Uncle Algie? Could Algie be another animagus?"

I agree that there's more to Trevor than meets the eye. I also think that you're probably correct. I'd like to add to the mix that I don't particularly like or trust Uncle Algie. After all, he's proven that he's not a nice guy by nearly drowning Neville and throwing him out of an upstairs window. If he's an animagus taking the opportunity to spy (which would account for all of his disappearances and the fact that Trevor is described as "lurking") then I don't think that it will be to Neville's benefit. After all, Algie is algae which is basically pond scum.

Let me congratulate you on your excellent house elf skills! I don't think that my husband is even aware of the color of our floors, much less considerate enough to actually MOP them! Don't worry, one day the house-elves like us will be appreciated!

Barbie

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Wispy Veil - Nov 2, 2004 8:37 pm (#678 of 1448)

I agree that there may be something more to Trevor than a wandering toad, and I also think we'll be seeing more of Uncle Algie. However, I really hope that he isn't another animagus. We've already seen 4 others become one illegally (James, Sirius, Peter and Rita) so it wouldn't be as shocking this time. I'd rather there be some other twist that we haven't thought of yet.

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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 3:39 am (#679 of 1448)

What if Uncle Algie had a kind of way to "manipulate" Trevor, or at least, use it as a kind of "spying eye" thanks to whom he could see and hear things from inside the castle?

BTW, LOL! Tessa's Dad, I think that Hermione will be very pleased to give you a badge...

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Wispy Veil - Nov 3, 2004 12:36 pm (#680 of 1448)

I like your idea of Uncle Algie manipulating Trevor in some way. I was thinking... Crookshanks is half kneazle and is, therefore, extremely intelligent. What if Trevor has something else in him? A niffler seeks shiny objects such as jewelry. What if Trevor's kind (whatever that may turn out to be) seeks information? Perhaps that's why he's always lurking in odd spots. I'm going to go even further out on this crazy limb and suggest that he could be somehow reporting his findings to Grandma or Uncle Algie. Grandma seems to me to be quite controlling and overbearing so I can easily see her doing this with Uncle Algie's help. I'm not sure how a toad would report his findings, though.

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Tomoé - Nov 3, 2004 1:10 pm (#681 of 1448)

Back in business
How a toad would report his findings? Trevor is no toad, he's someone turned into a toad, à la amazing bouncing ferret, and imperioused to report back. He just write down what he see. ^_^

Edit : and in fact, he is actually the half-blood prince.

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Aud Duck - Nov 3, 2004 7:34 pm (#682 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
The odd thing about Trevor is that he is always trying to escape from Neville. Why does he do this if he is reporting? It is fully understandable once he reaches the castle, but one would think that he would stay calm for the journey aboard the Hogwarts express.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 3, 2004 7:38 pm (#683 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Ah! Maybe there's something or someone at Hogwarts he's afraid of?

Then again, maybe he's just a toad? How many toads do you know that will sit in your hands or lap all day? And why does Neville not have a cage of some type for him?

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Ann - Nov 3, 2004 7:55 pm (#684 of 1448)

TBE: "And why does Neville not have a cage of some type for him?"

Maybe it isn't allowed to cage certain kinds of pet? Although clearly owls are carried in cages outside of Hogwarts.

Actually, this whole "pet" thing is a puzzle to me. Is there more to it than meets the eye? Are these animals witches' (and wizards') "familiars"? (I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to be--I know about familiars mostly as a way of recognizing witches and warlocks in the 16th century witch persecutions. But is that why each person is allowed only one?

I cited (website thread, I think?) recently a book chat where someone asked JKR about all the cats (there are a lot!) and she did her "good question; no, I can't tell you anything without spoiling the plot" number. So there's clearly something, and perhaps it is not just cats, but animals in general.

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Nearly Legless Mick - Nov 4, 2004 2:24 pm (#685 of 1448)

Maybe this should be on the prediction thread or somewhere else, but it is about Neville so here goes....

I have read theories that say Neville and Harry may have swapped identities, or that Neville will be the one to destroy LV. I can't agree with those because I think Harry is obviously the central character and I don't think JKR would mess about with something so fundamental to the series.

BUT I do think Neville is an incredibly important character - he is mentioned so often, and his personal struggle is a very worthy one, and the way he has matured and seems to be overcoming his weaknesses is inspirational.

Anyway, I expect Neville will be important in the final battle. I don't think he will destroy LV, but I think he will play a key part by saving Harry somehow shortly before the final denouement. And probably with an act of exceptional courage.

And I really hope he manages to get his own back on Bella.

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Morgan Champion - Nov 4, 2004 4:04 pm (#686 of 1448)

So do we all.Perhaps he defeats the Lestranges in combat?

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Aud Duck - Nov 5, 2004 5:01 pm (#687 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Well, at least Bella. Personally, I really want him to get a bit of revenge, but Bella is clearly one of the most prominent death eaters, and probably also the most likely to risk anything in service of Voldemort. So, for Neville to defeat her would also serve the plot really well. He would get personal revenge, but he would also be getting rid of one of the most potentially dangerous death eather. I don't know about her husband (Rodolphus, or is that a different Death Eater?). I haven't seen enough of him to make a judgement.

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LooneyLuna - Nov 5, 2004 6:37 pm (#688 of 1448)

Wasn't Rodolphus found guilty of torturing the Longbottoms along with Bella and Barty Jr? Maybe Neville will transfigure Rodolphus' ears onto his Mimbus while turning Bella into a mate for Trevor.

Smile

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MzWhizz123 - Nov 5, 2004 7:42 pm (#689 of 1448)

Ahhhhh, now, that just isn't very nice at all, LooneyLuna. Trevor probably has SOME feelings, you know! Wink

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LooneyLuna - Nov 6, 2004 4:57 pm (#690 of 1448)

Oh, I don't know, Trevor gives me the heebie jeebies. I think he and Bella would make a lovely toady couple. They could hatch Basilisks together.

hee hee

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Gerald Costales - Nov 12, 2004 6:31 am (#691 of 1448)

I think anyone who was at the Battle at the Ministry of Magic will become more important in either book 6 or 7. When the train left Hogwarts in book 5, Harry was with other people besides Ron and Hermione. Ginny, Luna, and Neville were there if I'm not mistaken. I wouldn't be surprised if the HRH trio expands by book 6 to include Ginny, Luna, and Neville.

Besides they would all pair up. Harry and Ginny; Hermione and Ron; and Neville and Luna. (Don't want to expand on the couples thing or I'll be sent to the Ships thread. And I really hate going to the Ships thread.)

At this point I think Trevor is Trevor warts and all. A toad that just likes to wander. And Trevor is probably only an usual pet for an usual boy. (Remember Hagrid comment, who has a toad nowadays.) But, Neville is gaining confidence and I wouldn't doubt he'll soon be ready to face Bella.

I'd like a Neville vs. Bella rematch. I predict Neville by a TKO in round 8 or 11. Neville doesn't have knock power yet but he's got heart and hopefully a better wand (not a hand me down) next time. ;-) GC

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Steve Newton - Nov 12, 2004 6:59 am (#692 of 1448)

Librarian
Gerald, as TomProffitt pointed out some time ago its the people who go to Hogwarts with Harry that become part of Harry's core group. This now includes Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Neville, all at the battle, and one adult, Lupin.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 14, 2004 8:22 am (#693 of 1448)

I too think that Neville is headed for a larger role in books 6 & 7. He grew up a lot in the last book, kind of came into his own. I think with a new wand and his new found confidence we could be in for a suprise!

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Aud Duck - Nov 14, 2004 4:54 pm (#694 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Snape certainly will be. I don't think anything Neville managed would be a surprise to me, though. Unless, as some jaded people whom I refuse to believe suppose, he turns traitor. I just couldn't see that.

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Ms Amanda - Nov 14, 2004 5:15 pm (#695 of 1448)

Edited by Nov 14, 2004 5:16 pm
Whew! I just read all 691 posts! Here are my predictions for Neville, a beloved character much too often pitied.

Neville and Trevor are going to be back in the next two books, and Trevor is NOT going to be a malevolent spy because JKR has already done that in the story with Ron and Scabbers.

Neville will make it into Potions! (OK, less of a prediction than a strong hope!)

Neville is suffering from a memory charm that is too strong, as is forshadowed by the description of poor Bertha. After all, as is mentioned starting around post 258 by Wendelin the Wierd, the rememberall seems important as it is mentioned so often. Not only did Malfoy take it in book one, but Neville mentions much later in the series that he wishes he had one since he lost his. When his rememberall turns red, he doesn't know what it was that he forgot. Yep, he's suffering from a memory charm. I don't believe that his family knows he is under the charm, though.

Neville will NOT be a Pettigrew, even if there was an early connection between them. We've seen that the choices we make are stronger than any superficial similarities. JKR has gone to great lengths to show us Pettigrew at a young age. Neville has not made the choice to hang around with wizards just because they are stronger than him. Neville does not hero-worship Harry as Pettigrew did James. Neville will stand up to the stronger DEs, and he encourages Harry to do so as well at the MOM.

Neville will fight Bella again in book 7. In that book, he will manage to defeat her, not using any of the Unforgivable Curses, but by using the mysterious power behind the closed door at the MOM. He'll be able to access it because he doesn't want to use it, but because it would be best for others (post 289, linking the trials in P/S S to the seven books).

Neville will hold the clue for the answer to the best question JKR says she was never asked, "Why didn't Voldemort die when the AV curse bounced back?" Would someone kindly find the quote for me? I think it's on JKR's website.

I hope that this post makes sense. That's a lot of material to read through at one sitting, and a million ideas about Neville popped into my head.

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Aud Duck - Nov 14, 2004 5:30 pm (#696 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Welcome to the Neville thread, Ms. Amanda. I like most of your suggestions. I, too, subscribe to the strong hope that Neville will make it into NEWT potions. I do disagree about the memory charm, though. I see no real reason to suspect anything except normal absentmindedness in Neville. I am, in fact, just as bad as he is. I can't imagine how I would manage if I had to remember passwords and skip trick stairs and all that. I think Neville does pretty well, considering. I suppose it's a possibility, but I tend to save theories about outside influence for times when some characteristic seems overdone. I don't think Neville's forgetfulness seems unbelievable, because I know plenty of people (including myself) like him.

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Ms Amanda - Nov 14, 2004 6:00 pm (#697 of 1448)

Edited by Nov 14, 2004 6:02 pm
Aud Duck, Thanks for the welcome!

Hmmm. I agree, the memory charm theory could grow out of hand like the animagi theories and the timeline theories. And, I have a bad memory too and often wish I could blame it on a memory charm.

Could it be that it really is that far-fetched? I do not believe any of his family or any Healers put the memory charm on him to relieve him of the pain of remembering his parents' torture. If that was ethically a common practice, then someone would have performed it on Harry, too. I also don't believe that the DEs would have performed a memory charm on him at the time, either; it would have been easier to AV him. By the way, where was Neville at the time?

Yet I feel that so many posters identify Neville as having a memory charm because his bad memory is so overdone. And there is that clue all the way back in P/S S that the remembrall turns red and Neville can't remember what it is that he's forgotten.

Hmmm. Yes, I can see JKR writing Neville as a character whose memory we identify with. And I see that it would be a problem from a storytelling standpoint. Who would put a memory charm on Neville? But I charish the thought that powerful Neville has a reason for this powerful forgetfulness.

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dizzy lizzy - Nov 14, 2004 6:35 pm (#698 of 1448)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Any chance of Neville inadvertently putting the memory charm on himself as a child to block out certain memories and it didn't quite come out right?

Therefore his poor showing prior to OoP as a wizard (apart from herbology) is because he's forgotten how to be a wizard.

And the improvement in the "classes" that Dumbdore's army take under Harry, is because no-one in the Army is not picking on him (as he learns) so he really learns (remembers) how to be a wizard.

Lizzy

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mrweasley - Nov 15, 2004 9:13 am (#699 of 1448)

I wonder whether there is any information about Neville's background that we have yet to learn. On her website, where she talks about her Dean Thomas edits, JKR says:

Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot.

I guess that could simply refer to Neville's discovery in OotP that it was Bellatrix Lestrange who tortured his parents. But somehow it sounds to me as if there are more discoveries still waiting for Neville to make.

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Ann - Nov 15, 2004 11:02 am (#700 of 1448)

Mr. Weasley, I think Neville has always known about the Lestranges and Crouch. His grandmother doesn't seem to be the type who believes in shielding the young from painful truths.

That's why I am also skeptical about the memory charm--she certainly would have had nothing to do with it, and she seems to be a clever enough witch that she would have (a) recognized it and (b) fixed it. After all, a NEWTs examiner is one of her best friends. If Gran couldn't fix it, Marchbanks undoubtedly could.

So, I agree with Mr. Weasley. There is definitely a voyage of discovery in store for Neville--possibly just of his own abilities, or perhaps something about his weird Uncle Alfie.

I also agree with the assumption a few posts back that Neville, too, has a good deal of the power the Dark Lord knows not. The way even his plant responds to him is by the end of OotP, I think, quite telling.

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Tomoé - Nov 16, 2004 11:56 pm (#701 of 1448)
Back in business
Ms Amanda -> Who would put a memory charm on Neville?

Great Uncle Algie, who else? ^_^

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Czarina II - Nov 17, 2004 8:44 am (#702 of 1448)

I always assumed that Great-Uncle Algie was either Gran's brother or brother-in-law (Grandfather Longbottom's brother). This is not necessarily true, but it just seems that when a child is raised by his or her grandparents, relatives from the other side of the family fade into the background. I don't know what this has to do with a memory charm, but if Algie is Gran's brother, he is probably more trustworthy than we are giving him credit. Prior to joining the Forum, I assumed that Algie served as Neville's proxy father. I also think Gran Longbottom is overprotective and at the same time too pushy with her grandson Neville, but she is not malevolent. As she is a friend of Marchbanks (who seems to be a friend of Dumbledore), I wouldn't be surprised if her loyalties lie with the Order, or the old crowd at the Ministry (not Fudge's administration). I think both Gran and Algie will be proud of Neville for his performance at the DoM.

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Ann - Nov 17, 2004 9:54 am (#703 of 1448)

I think it's very clear in the canon that Gran's loyalties lie with the Order, and not with the Fudge administration. At the start of OotP, Neville quotes her about the Daily Prophet and her belief in the resurrection of Voldemort. She says something like "If Dumbledore says he's back, he's back." And of course her son and daughter in law were in the Order the first time around.

So Gran's okay. Algie could be basically okay, too, despite the pond scum sound of his name. After all, Mundungus isn't all that savory sounding either. I don't think he's likely(assuming we hear anything from him again) to turn out to be a knight in shining armor. Torturing Neville to get him to do magic is definitely not a good sign, but it may have simply been stupidity. Trevor is used mostly to show Neville's inability to control his possessions--including his talents; I suspect Trevor will stick a bit closer to home now that Neville's been getting himself together. And the mimbulus is, I think, a way to demonstrate Neville's loving, nurturing side.

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Steve Newton - Nov 17, 2004 10:21 am (#704 of 1448)

Librarian
"If Dumbledore says he's back, he's back."

Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that she is anti-Lord V.

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Ann - Nov 17, 2004 10:54 am (#705 of 1448)

Children tend to reflect their parents' beliefs. Frank and Alice Longbottom fought Voldemort and lost their sanity doing so. Neville's Gran visits them weekly. Neville, who's grown up with her, joins the DA and is obviously quite violently anti-Voldemort. I find it very hard to see Gran Longbottom as a Voldemort supporter.

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wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 1:26 pm (#706 of 1448)

She seems rather proud that her son and daughter-in-law were tortured in the fight against Dark Wizards. And she's friends with Mme. Marchbanks, who in turn is a friend of Dumbledore. Neville also said "we believe Harry". Doesn't sound like a supporter of the Dark Lord to me.

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Aud Duck - Nov 17, 2004 7:46 pm (#707 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I agree with wwtMask and Ann about the prospects of Neville's gran being pro-DE. I think her reaction to the knowledge that Neville had not told any of his classmates what happened to his parents is proof of her loyalties. It seemed like she considers it a mark of pride to be related to people that sacrificed themselves for the Order's cause.

I never read too much into Algie's name. Like Neville, Algernon (which is what Algie is usually short for), is simply a name stereotypically connected to the Brittish upper class. I would be more convinced that Algie's name bodes ill if we found a historical or literary Algie that people had good cause to fear. The only one I can think of now is from The Importance of Being Ernest, and I somehow doubt that comparisons with that particular Algie will get us anywhere.

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Ann - Nov 17, 2004 8:46 pm (#708 of 1448)

"The only one I can think of now is from The Importance of Being Ernest, and I somehow doubt that comparisons with that particular Algie will get us anywhere."

I don't know; perhaps it means we are taking him too seriously?

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John Bumbledore - Nov 18, 2004 6:02 am (#709 of 1448)

"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Perhaps Great Uncle Algie is the source of Neville's affinity for herbology? Jo does tend to the name reflecting or foreshadowing personal traits.

Lupin : wolf. Sirius : dog-star.(?) Slitherin : snake. Grifindore : Lion/Griphon. Luna : moon/star gazing/divination. Algie : Herbology.

Bumbledore.

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Gerald Costales - Nov 26, 2004 6:56 am (#710 of 1448)

Found this while surfing the - Algernon Bertram Freeman-Mitford, better known as a grandfather of the infamous Mitford sisters of the 1920s. And wasn't JKR's oldest named after Jessica Mitford. And I believe JKR gave her daughter Jessica a book written by Jessica Mitford as her daughter's christening gift.

JKR is fond of naming some characters based on real people. The Night Bus characters were named for her grandfather's - Stan & Ernie. ;-) GC

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skh - Dec 7, 2004 5:19 am (#711 of 1448)

Algernon to me, like Neville, implies a sort of bumbling type, which would fit VERY well with Mitford senior (the Mitfords were aristocrats and, at best, highly eccentric - Nancy was a novellist she wrote Love In a Cold Climate, Jessica was the youngest and - against the family grain - a communist, she wrote Hons & Rebels which is an auto biography, Unity was a Hitler supporter; famously she shot herself after the war but survived - she met Hitler, Diana was married to Oswald Mosley who was head of the UK fascist movement during WW2 and also married a duke - I suppose the "IT girls" of their day)

EDIT - the Mitfords were all notoriously snobby as well, refering to things as "U" or "non-U" meaning upper classs! But they were also very funny and original.

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Neville Longbottom - Dec 10, 2004 12:04 pm (#712 of 1448)

Okay, interesting news on JKR's website. Why do you think Neville's parents were attacked? It seems to have some significance.

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Aud Duck - Dec 10, 2004 1:32 pm (#713 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Hmmm. Possibly, it was just an arbitrary attempt to reassert DE power. The Longbottoms would have been a good choice for this because they had, according to Dumbledore, defied Voldemort three times. The Lestranges would have wanted to prove that no one can escape the DEs. Also, I think it says somewhere that they were aurors. This also would have made them good targets because it could prove DE superiority over the Ministry. But I do think there is something else that we don't know yet.

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Julia. - Dec 11, 2004 5:16 pm (#714 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
I thought JRK answered this one in GoF.

'The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror--Frank Longtobbon--and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named--"
..."You are further accused...of using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank Longbottom's wife when he would not give ;you information. You planned to restore He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably lead while he was strong." (GoF, ch. 30, pg. 595 US)

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Gerald Costales - Dec 11, 2004 6:06 pm (#715 of 1448)

I would have bet on Neville pairing up with Luna. Not really a Ship question, but since Neville is not Mister Popular, I wonder who Neville ends up with? I doubt it's Ginny. And really doubt it's Hermione. Also the other Gryffindor girls don't seem like Neville material.

Could it be Marietta? I better stop before I'm asked to post on the Ship thread. I really hate posting on the Ship thread. ;-) GC

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 12, 2004 2:09 am (#716 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
GC, don't post, don't think...you doing fine! :-) LOL, whatever you do don't go to ship thread! Ships sink!

Topic, topic?...yeah, ok. I am one who thinks Neville saw his parents tortured and with a very well meaning family, had his memory wiped. Methinks the charm may be wearing off. I think not only is Neville growing into himself, he is freeing himself to remember...

...toddles off to try and remember where this thought was going...

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Gerald Costales - Dec 12, 2004 8:04 am (#717 of 1448)

I think the next big event in Neville's life will be when Neville finally gets his own personal wand. Gran wouldn't dare get him another hand me down wand. (It was Frank's wand and possibly a Longbottom family legacy and not really a true hand me down. Ron's wand was a true hand me down because that wand was originally his brother Percy's wand.)

By inheriting his father's Frank wand, Neville was never truly free to become the Wizard that Neville was meant to be. I don't picture Neville becoming an Auror like either his Father or Mother. I could easily imagine Frank's father (Neville's grandfather) as an Auror and then Frank also becoming an Auror. Gran, by giving Neville his father's wand, would being pushing Neville into following the family tradition of the Longbottoms becoming Aurors. (Like some families tradition of their family members all becoming doctors or policeman, etc.)

The type of wand core and wand wood used in Neville's wand should be interesting. I'd think Neville's wand core will be Dragon heart string (like Cedric's). I'm did sure what the wand wood will be.

I'm not sure Neville saw or heard Frank and Alice being tortured. Neville was after all an infant and a day older than Harry. And unless Wizard infants are more aware than human infants then Neville should have few if any memories from his infancy of Frank and Alice.

Of course, Harry seems to remember hearing the voices of his parents before they were killed. But, I don't have the impression Neville was present while his parents were being questioned and tortured. Unlike Harry who was present because Voldermort wanted to kill Harry. James and Lily both died protecting Harry. ;-) GC

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Gerald Costales - Dec 12, 2004 8:51 am (#718 of 1448)

PS Just read the WAND section on JKR's website. Neville's wand wood should be "Holly" just like Harry's wand. ;-) GC

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Aud Duck - Dec 12, 2004 9:22 am (#719 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I don't think that Neville was there when his parents were tortured because if he had, he would have had a worse reaction to the dementor. I think that witnessing your parents being tortured into insanity is probably even more traumatic than witnessing your parents' deaths by AK curse. The AK kills people instantaneously. It is a very effective weapon, but it does not seem to involve a whole lot of pain. If Neville had been there when his parents were tortured, he would have had to listen to their screams of pain for quite a long time before their minds gave out. I think that would have made anyone faint, and Neville seems to have had a bad shock, but nearly as much so as Ginny and Harry.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 12, 2004 9:23 am (#720 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I wonder what would happen if DD had Falkes give another feather to Mr. Ollivander for Nevilles new wand. Two Holly wands with Phoenix feathers aganist Voldemort.

Mikie

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Gerald Costales - Dec 12, 2004 10:36 am (#721 of 1448)

Somewhere it's stated that Fawkes only gave two feathers. One for Voldermort's wand and one for Harry's wand. I know that Neville getting a Phoenix feather wand core would be interesting, but I don't believe it will happen.

Neville is still tied to the "Prophecy" and I think that tie will be explored in Books 6 & 7. ;-) GC

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Weeny Owl - Dec 12, 2004 11:23 am (#722 of 1448)

(It was Frank's wand and possibly a Longbottom family legacy and not really a true hand me down. Ron's wand was a true hand me down because that wand was originally his brother Percy's wand.)

Actually, it was Charlie's wand Ron was given. He got Percy's rat.

I don't think that Neville was there when his parents were tortured because if he had, he would have had a worse reaction to the dementor.

I think it's possible that Neville was there and his memory was modified. If he can't remember something, it wouldn't affect him in the presence of a dementor.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 12, 2004 1:55 pm (#723 of 1448)

Harry couldn't remember his parents' voices until he came in contact with the dementors...

Of course, his memory was not artificially modified; he was just too young to remember.

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HPXpress - Dec 12, 2004 3:37 pm (#724 of 1448)

Hi, Everyone! This is my very first post so please bear with me Smile

As for Neville's wand, would it be reaching that maybe he and Grandma take a trip over the summer and while visiting, he gets a new wand from somewhere other than Olivander's?

With the different schools that were in GOF, where did all those students get their wands?

Is that stretching it too far?

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Steve Newton - Dec 12, 2004 7:05 pm (#725 of 1448)

Librarian
I just finished watching SS. Did Nevile break his right arm in the book? (Sorry haven't the time to check right now. All right, I can't remember where I put the book.) Anyway, if so it is another connection to Harry in that both have broken their right arms while flying on their brooms. Probably means nothing.

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Marie E. - Dec 12, 2004 7:07 pm (#726 of 1448)

Paulus' comment got me thinking: What if Neville is remembering more about his parents since his experience with the dementors? He had quite a reaction to them on the Hogwarts Express. He could have gotten close enough to them at the Quidditch match to have another reaction.

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Robert Dierken - Dec 12, 2004 7:36 pm (#727 of 1448)

Neville's wrist was broken in the flying lesson accident.

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MzWhizz123 - Dec 12, 2004 8:17 pm (#728 of 1448)

I don't think that Neville was there when his parents were tortured because if he had, he would have had a worse reaction to the dementor.--Aud Duck

I agree because had Neville been there, the DEs would have also tortured him to get his parents to talk.

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Gerald Costales - Dec 13, 2004 6:03 am (#729 of 1448)

"I agree because had Neville been there, the DEs would have also tortured him to get his parents to talk." MzWhizz123

I'd have to agree. The Death Eaters are truly a terrible bunch and I wouldn't put it past them to torture an infant to force his parents to talk. Excellent, but terrible point, MzWhizz123!

Weeny Owl, thanks for the correction on Ron's wand. Poor Ron seldom seems to get anything new. Could be why he wants to be Quidditch Team Captain and Headboy. Ron has a chance for the Captaincy but I'm not sure Ron will be Headboy. I think Harry may be Headboy and Hermione Headgirl. ;-) GC Just My 2 Knuts.

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constant vigilance - Dec 13, 2004 3:15 pm (#730 of 1448)

art student
Not really sure where I'm going with this, but I don't think it's impossible that Neville witnessed the torture of his parents. We really don't know how old he was when his parents were attacked. We only know that Voldemort had been out of power for enough time that the Wizarding World felt safe again--that's why the community's reaction to the attack was so severe.

Also, remember how Neville reacted during Moody-Crouch's lesson on the Unforgiveable Curses? That was an extremely painful experience for him, and we don't know if his strong reaction was simply because he was aware of the results of the Cruciatus Curse, or if it was because he was having memory flashbacks. And by the way, that was a wretched thing of Crouch to do to Neville. I wonder if Neville somehow had some sort of sense that their teacher wasn't who he appeared to be...Probably not, but it is curious.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 14, 2004 9:37 am (#731 of 1448)

Maybe Neville was present when Bellatrix tortured his parents, but Bellatrix didn't dare use the Cruciatus Curse (or any other curse) on a baby born at the end of July. Look what had recently happened to her master, Voldemort, when he tried cursing another baby, i.e. Harry.

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mooncalf - Dec 14, 2004 10:05 am (#732 of 1448)

That's a terrific thought, scoop, it makes a whole lot of sense. But didn't JKR say in a recent update that the LeStranges didn't know about the prophecy?

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 10:31 am (#733 of 1448)

Very few knew about the prophecy, but practically everybody knows what happened when one of the most powerful wizards of his time tried to use an unforgivable curse on an infant...

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mooncalf - Dec 14, 2004 10:47 am (#734 of 1448)

I doubt that that event made the Death Eaters afraid to harm children. And I doubt if poor Neville ever frightened anybody.

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Aud Duck - Dec 14, 2004 1:48 pm (#735 of 1448)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think that finding your parents seriously incapacitated would be enough trauma to warrant Neville's reaction to the Unforgiveable Curse lecture. We know that it happened a few years after Voldemort disappeared, which would probably have made Neville about two or three years old. When you're that age, you think your parents are invincible. I think that the realization that his parents weren't invincible and hardly (if at all) recognized him would have been very hard for Neville.

The dementor bit brings up an interesting question: Do memory charms still work when you are near dementors? If not, I think we can safely conclude that Neville did not witness his parents' torture. But I am inclined to think that they would still work.

I have said before that I don't think Neville is under a memory charm. Not only do I think his absentmindedness is of a perfectly normal variety, I also can't think who would have done it. The DEs certainly wouldn't have. Even after Voldemort's AK spell rebounded, I can't see Bella taking a toddler as a threat, and they certainly wouldn't have done it out of mercy. Gran strikes me as a "take it with a stiff upper lip" sort of person. I suppose Neville's grandfather or someone from the ministry might have done it, but I don't think it's a very good possibility.

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Ann - Dec 15, 2004 7:48 am (#736 of 1448)

I agree that Gran would never have gone with a memory curse; and, as I've said before, she and particularly her friend Madame Marchbanks would also be savvy enough to recognize the effects of one and get rid of it. I think, as McGonagall said, that Neville's only real problem is a lack of confidence, something Gran will certainly never see or know how to cure.

Also, I said something some time ago about the attack on the Longbottoms being several years after Voldemort disappeared, and lots of people pointed me to the Lexicon timeline, which puts it only a few months later. But I don't think anyone ever provided canon authority for that. Still, after a decade or so of constant deaths and mayhem, I would say that people would probably be starting to feel safe again after about two months...

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mooncalf - Dec 15, 2004 9:07 am (#737 of 1448)

Edited by Dec 15, 2004 9:08 am
I don't know - I can see Gran putting a memory charm on Neville. She's such an overbearing, I-know-what's-best-for-you type that she might take it upon herself to charm poor Neville. It would actually be a way of vicariously assuaging her own grief; she was obviously devoted to Frank, and I'm sure that part of her would like to forget what happened to him.

I can certainly also see the point of those who say that she wouldn't have done it because she constantly seems to be wanting Neville to stand up and take it like a man. But it does seem in character for her to have caused Neville's memory problems and then spent years scolding him for forgetting things.

She is, after all, responsible for his lack of confidence and yet she scolds him about not being more confident.

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Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 4:10 pm (#738 of 1448)

Back in business
I think it depends how badly Neville reacted. If he refuse to eat, barely drink and couldn't sleep at night, I can perfectly see Mrs Longbottom perform a Memory Charm on him to save her grand-son's life.

Here are some interesting lines from OoP :

‘It's the right thing to do, Harry,’ said Neville, who was sitting opposite him. He was rather pale, but went on in a low voice, ‘It must have been ... tough ... talking about it ... was it?’
‘Yeah,’ mumbled Harry, ‘but people have got the right to know what's Voldemort's capable of, haven't they?’
‘That's right,’ said Neville, nodding, ‘and his Death Eaters, too ... people should know ...’
Neville left his sentence hanging and return to his baked potato. (OoP ch.26 p.503)

It looks like Neville know something about the DE, something that no other know. Something that pushed him to overcome his lack of confidence and made him become one of Harry's top students, when some of them get free.

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Ann - Dec 16, 2004 8:19 pm (#739 of 1448)

Tomoé, that's a really significant passage. I hadn't really noticed it! I think Neville is admiring Harry for talking about a difficult experience, and saying that he knew it was difficult. The question is, what gives Neville his empathy here? Is it because he has also had a difficult experience that he has trouble talking about? Or is it the broader question of his situation? (We know he doesn't talk to his friends about his parents.)

The second line, I agree, suggests that Neville knows something that he has not yet revealed. But I think what this scene shows us is that, although he knows that "people should know," he can't quite bring himself to tell them, as Harry did. Possibly telling them (when he gets around to it) will do wonders for his own confidence and abilities.

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Tomoé - Dec 17, 2004 4:34 pm (#740 of 1448)

Back in business
Oh, right Ann, he could be thinking to talk with somebody else than his Gran about his parents and is feeling about it, but feared what the confident will do with that.

If I try to reconstruct Neville's thoughts, through the three lines (paraphrasing) : "It's though to talk about it, but people should know what's Voldemort and his DE are capable of."

"People" could mean two thing, the school or the Wizarding World. If he meant the first, Neville could be thinking of telling his tale to his school mate. If he means the second, it can hardly be telling the Wizarding World what happen to his parents, the large majority of witches and wizard of Britain know. It would be like telling Bruce Lee and his son Brandon died in a very suspect way. Old news. So, if Neville have something to tell to the Wizarding World, it's something new. He either see/heard it by himself or he heard his parents raving about it.

But it still could be he'd like to talk about it with someone else than his Gran, but don't dare to.

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Ann - Dec 17, 2004 7:40 pm (#741 of 1448)

I'll vote for something new, beyond what we already know about his parents. Maybe it has something to do with those pesky gum wrappers. And JKR says something on her site about Neville's "voyage of discovery."

(She says she has sacrificed Dean Thomas's to give more stress to it. But Neville, except for growing in confidence, hasn't made much of a voyage of discovery yet that we know of.)

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mooncalf - Dec 18, 2004 12:22 am (#742 of 1448)

Maybe by "voyage of discovery" she meant what we discover about Neville, and not what Neville discovers about himself.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2004 4:21 am (#743 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't know Mooncalf. Neville in OotP made so pretty serious discoveries. First and foremost is that he is alot better wizard than most people(including himself)give him credit for. Second he is extremely loyal and willing to stand up for what he believes in(Draco could take lessons). And finally he seems to have a future in herbology(wish I had known what I wanted to be at sixteen). I think while we don't know about Neville's past, we have discovered quite a bit about Neville as a person.

Mikie

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Ann - Dec 18, 2004 9:31 am (#744 of 1448)

Mooncalf: "Maybe by "voyage of discovery" she meant what we discover about Neville, and not what Neville discovers about himself."

But then it would be our voyage, not his. Mikie, you may have it right, but that passage that Tomoé quoted a few posts back makes it sound to me like Neville knows something that he's hesitant to share with other wizards, and that when he does, he may begin an even more significant voyage.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2004 9:50 am (#745 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Ann-I agree that Neville's voyage has just cast off from the dock and that he knows far more than we or his friends are being told. I believe in HBP he will become trusting enough of Harry to divulge some or all of his history and really get into his journey. Together I think they will make a very strong team.

Mikie

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Tomoé - Dec 19, 2004 2:38 am (#746 of 1448)

Back in business
I believe there will be a chapter where they will tell each other secrets, Neville will tell whatever he know about his parents, Harry will tell about the prophecy, Ginny about what Diary Tom told her (I sure he told her something that he shouldn't). Maybe Luna, Hermione and Ron will have something to tell as well, though I can't see what.

So, with six brains together, they'll connect the dots together, or they'll find new places to look for information. They'll all work on Neville's case and will learn what really happened to his parents and maybe save them.

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El Cronista de Salem - Dec 19, 2004 6:32 am (#747 of 1448)

The original surname of Neville was "Puff" ('Harry Potter and Me').

Any clue?

I have heard something very curius but not believed: Huffle-PUFF.

Hufflepuff Heir? XD I don't believe it.

The only true is that she decided to change it.

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Ann - Dec 21, 2004 3:30 pm (#748 of 1448)

I wonder about the Longbottom - Puff connection. The name Longbottom comes from Lord of the Rings, I assume, where it is best known as a brand of tobacco (Longbottom Leaf); has anyone else associated this with Puff? Remember, JKR used to smoke!

Incidentally, I just posted an argument about Neville on the 'shipping thread, which is probably where it belongs, but I thought I'd mention it here as well. Has anyone else noticed all the evidence for Neville being madly in love with Hermione? There's quite a lot of it. I think it may even go back to PS/SS. And I think if Neville ever got into a really good relationship, his magical abilities would be amazing!

(I am not a person who normally gets excited about relationships, being well past that stage myself, but I think this one may be very significant in the end.)

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Tomoé - Dec 21, 2004 8:08 pm (#749 of 1448)

Back in business
The name Longbottom does not necessarily come from Lord of the Ring, Longbottom is a family name in the UK, it's even a common name in certain aera. Both Tolkien and Jo could have heard it anywhere.

Edit : Or at least it's what the other British members said about the Longbottom name.

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Gerald Costales - Dec 22, 2004 6:53 am (#750 of 1448)

"Has anyone else noticed all the evidence for Neville being madly in love with Hermione?" Ann

I don't see Neville with Hermione. But, aren't we all madly in love with Hermione. Of the female characters with the exception of Ginny, Hermione is bright, cute, and loyal. (Seems like I'm describing the qualities of a good Dog.) Cho may be pretty, but her loyalty to Marietta, makes Cho a poor choice for a girlfriend. Plus, Cho is still griefing over Cedric. And Ginny, if she becomes more like Fred and George, may become a Lucy Ricardo clone. Too clownish to be taken seriously as a girlfriend (unless you like practical jokes, wands that turn into fish, exploding bookbags, etc.). (No, offense to Redheads by the way.) And I wouldn't take any of the Slytherin girls (please, not unless I'm into pain and humiliation). Finally, Luna is just to spacey (even JKR doesn't have Neville with Luna). The other girls, even the current Gryffindor girls, seem too ordinary. A little too gossipy and giggly (remember them chasing Krum). And the best girls the older Gryffindor girls have graduated.

"I wonder about the Longbottom - Puff connection. The name Longbottom comes from Lord of the Rings, I assume, where it is best known as a brand of tobacco (Longbottom Leaf); has anyone else associated this with Puff?" Ann

I would be more inclined to believe this than "Puff" being short for "Huffle-PUFF". Some of the other characters have gone through name changes as well Dean Thomas was Gary. By the way the name "Puff" reminds of that old Peter, Paul, & Mary song "Puff the Magic Dragon". ;-) GC

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 751 to 800)

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 22, 2004 10:31 am (#751 of 1448)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 22, 2004 10:31 am
Gerald Costales - And I wouldn't take any of the Slytherin girls (please, not unless I'm into pain and humiliation).

Hey now, be nice! Harry would have done well there. Are you saying Harry is into "pain and humiliation"?

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2004 11:34 am (#752 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Might not be into it but has sure suffered enough of it for the last five years to last a lifetime.

Mikie

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 25, 2004 10:11 am (#753 of 1448)

I found a copy The Plot Thickens... Harry Potter Investigated by Fans for Fans edited by Galadriel Waters at alocal bookstore and as I was skiming through it. I came across two interesting theories and I wondered if they had been probed for merit.

First, is possible that Neville was also tortured along with his parents and that afterward in a fit of remorse Barty Crouch Jr. placed a meomory charm on Neville to expunge as much of the incident as possible.

Second, is it possible that Snape was present at the torture of the Longbottoms and that he placed a memory charm on Neville

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Denise S. - Dec 26, 2004 6:46 pm (#754 of 1448)

We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Voldemort called BC, Jr. his 'most faithful servant', and he had enough devotion to Voldemort to wait the 14-some years til he could get the position as "Moody" at Hogwarts. He was important/dedicated enough to be allowed to participate in the Longbottoms' torture. He's hard core. I don't think he'd have any remorse about torturing a 2-3 yr.-old kid.

And if Snape put a memory charm on Neville, I think he'd be at least a little less overbearing towards him. Why berate Neville for having a bad memory when he was the one who caused it in the first place?

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Neville Longbottom - Dec 27, 2004 2:32 am (#755 of 1448)

I actually think that would fit Snape's personality. He would see the result of his actions every day and feels guilty, and because he doesn't like to feel guilty, he treats Neville that horrible.

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karlii silverstorm - Dec 27, 2004 2:10 pm (#756 of 1448)

hmm... to go back to something I thought of before.. Remember that voldie didn't know the whole prophecy. And also remember that DD was so concerned, that he did the Fidelis charm to protect the Potters. While it doesn't say so specifically, I think it logically follows that the LB's were put under similar protection. (or does it say that? I don't have OoTP with me right now). In any case.. after Voldy's disappearance, there was no reason to hide Neville any longer. While I am sure they had problems with DE's.. there was no reason to fear about the prophecy.

I also think Neville was aware of the prophecy. I can think of a lot of things he might have yelled in the DoM, but the fact that he was so very adamant that the prophecy be protected at all costs.. indicates to me that he understood the significance of it. Or the value/worth of it. Harry didn't. Harry only knew what he did, from voldy's dreams. Neville most certainly might have been told something by someone like uncle algie. A family story.. like 'The Boy Who Almost Was... ' Also.. I think that part of G'ma's reasons for belittling Neville, might have had to do with her bizarre manner of trying to protect him. By squelching his talents, he couldn't be placed in danger by DE's.. or he wouldn't become an auror, and go off to war. She had already lost her son to the battle.. she might have gone to some strange lengths to try to keep her grandson safe.

:-)later!

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Leprechaun Jack! - Dec 27, 2004 4:59 pm (#757 of 1448)

The cow says...moo, the sheep says...baa, and the Bear says WOOF.
karlii silverstorm -I've thought something to that effect myself about Gran Longbottom.

Jack

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Gerald Costales - Dec 27, 2004 5:26 pm (#758 of 1448)

" By squelching his talents, he couldn't be placed in danger by DE's.. or he wouldn't become an auror, and go off to war. She had already lost her son to the battle.. she might have gone to some strange lengths to try to keep her grandson safe." karlii silverstorm

"One of the strange lengths" Gran might have used was to give Neville Frank's wand. But, with Frank's wand broken, Neville should get a new wand in Book 6. (On the Wand thread, I've predict a Dragonheart core like Cedric's wand and Holly for the wand's wood, just like Harry's wand since both were born in July.)

Uncle Algie is probably the only one trying to get Neville to become a talented Wizard. And the DA classes have really helped Neville's self-confidence.

Also, there could be more to the crumpled gum wrapper's that Alice keeps giving to Neville when he visits his parents at St. Mungo's. Remember, Gran said that Neville should have enough gum wrappers to paper his room. And Neville did pocket the gum wrapper.

Despite Gran's possible meddling, Neville will a good Wizard and a true Gryffindor when Harry and the gang face Voldermort and the Death Eaters or the "Junior" Death Eaters - Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, etc. ;-) GC

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 27, 2004 5:31 pm (#759 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't necessarily think there is anything else to the gum-wrappers. Neville suffered a huge loss, one he has never gotten over and the keeping of the gum wrappers could be Neville refusing to get rid of the only thing his mum has ever given him or is capable of giving him.

Mikie

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Ydnam96 - Dec 27, 2004 7:49 pm (#760 of 1448)

I think Neville knew the Prophecy was important because he knew that the DEs wanted it. That was all he needed to know to understand it was important. I'm not saying he doesn't know about the prophecy (although I dont' really believe he does) it could be possible...but I think that even if he didn't he's not at all thick enough to not understand that if like 6 adult death eaters are chasing after a group or kids for something, that something is probably important.

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Ann - Dec 28, 2004 7:12 am (#761 of 1448)

I really like karlii's idea that Neville knows about the prophecy. In addition to his shouting to Harry not to give it to them, he is also very adamant in advising Harry not to touch it in the first place.

After all, the prophecy does concern him, in a way; and since it wouldn't be as painful for him to know it as it is for Harry, I don't think it is unlikely that he would have been told. It would make Neville and Harry sort of symmetrical: Harry has known since GoF about Neville's parents, but has been told to keep quiet about it; Neville could have been similarly informed about the prophecy. And Neville is the most mature of the kids of his year, I think. I've noticed that all through OotP, JKR has him saying things "quietly," which is an adverb she uses a lot for admirable, mature people. So I would bet he knew before about at least its first part--the part that Voldemort knows.

The canon support is this: When Ron and Harry are examining the prophecy on the shelf, and Hermione says not to touch it, Harry says "why not?":

"Don't, Harry," said Neville suddenly. Harry looked around at him. Neville's round face was shining slightly with sweat. He looked as though he could not take much more suspense.

The suspense, of course, is Harry's interpretation. I think Neville knows what it is.

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Gerald Costales - Dec 28, 2004 7:47 am (#762 of 1448)

I agree with both posts #757 & #758.

Don't know why the Wand threads keep disappearing, but there is a new Wand Usage thread. Since there is no Wand thread, I think posting about Neville's new wand should fit in this thread.

A wand is important to a Wizard. What would have happened if Harry didn't have a brother wand to Voldermort's wand in the Graveyard? So, the wand that chooses Neville should be important not only to Neville but possibly to the future course of the storyline.

Anyone else have thoughts about Neville's new wand?

Firstly a correction, I wrongfully posted that Cedric's wand core was Dragon heartstring. I reread "The Weighing of the Wands" chapter in GoF. It's Krum's wand core that is Dragon heartstring. Ron's wand core is Unicorn hair.

I picked the core material of Dragon heartstring for Neville's new wand. Because I did't think that Neville would have the same wand core as Ron's. Also the choice of Holly for the wand is based on recent information about wands JKR just revealed in her website.

Ron also had a hand me down wand that was broken. And Ron received a new wand after CoS during the Summer. So, I think we can expect a new wand for Neville in Book 6. And even though, Gran does raise protests about replacing Frank's wand over the Summer. I could see Uncle Algie getting the new wand with Neville. Uncle Algie could argue that Neville can't return with Frank's wand spellotaped together. (Remember the mess Ron had with his spellotaped wand in CoS.)

Of course, Harry's wand core is from a tail feather from Fawkes. But, that doesn't exclude other Phoenix feathers from being used as wand cores. On one of the old Wand threads someone indicated that Dumbledore's wand core is also a Phoenix feather. (Don't know the basis of that claim though and I haven't had time to research it either.)

Neville could end up with a Phoenix feather wand core, but that would confuse the issue of if Harry or Neville is "the One" marked by the Dark Lord in the Prophecy. (The marking of Harry could include both the "lightening bolt" scar and the fact that Harry and Voldermort have brother wands.)

Again, I think the characters will not have the same types of wands. Going to Olivanders is not like going to the shoe store where you pick something, try it on, and then purchase it. Remember the Wand chooses the Wizard. There is custom fit natural to a wand and so it should be unlikely that two Wizard have the same identical wand. So, Neville's new wand will be different from Harry's and Ron's wands.

Don't know what Hermione's wand is made of either. ;-) GC

PS Happy New Year.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 28, 2004 8:32 am (#763 of 1448)

I don't think Neville knew beforehand the sphere on the shelf contained a prophesy. I think that if he had, he would have given Harry a more-explicit warning against touching it.

I think Neville had a gut feeling that touching the sphere might be a bad idea, given that the label included the words "Dark Lord." Neville's gut feeling was right on target in this case.

As for Neville working so hard to help protect the sphere afterwards was because he realized the prophesy was something the Death Eaters and Voldemort wanted it badly.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 28, 2004 11:17 am (#764 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
GC - I think Hermione's wand was Vine if I'm not mistaken but I'm at work and can't check canon.

Mikie

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Gerald Costales - Dec 29, 2004 7:48 am (#765 of 1448)

Mikie, Happy New Year. ;-) GC

"Hermione's wand: vine wood, dragon heartstring" source the Lexicon and JKR's website.

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rambkowalczyk - Jan 1, 2005 4:53 pm (#766 of 1448)

Neville has very strong feelings about Deatheaters as they were the ones responsible for taking his parents away from him. He probably instinctively felt that if the Deatheaters wanted the prophecy then that wasn't a good thing and needed to be fought against.

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Quidam - Jan 2, 2005 7:26 pm (#767 of 1448)

I'm guessing that Neville's new wand will be ten inches long with a core of phoenix feather (but not from Fawkes), not sure about the wood though.

Here is something to think about; Harry, Dudley and Draco all look like, and have similar personalities to, their fathers. Neville, on the other hand, resembles his mother. Does anyone agree with me that part of the reason Neville doesn't appear to have his father's talent is because he takes after Alice rather than Frank?

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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 8:06 pm (#768 of 1448)

That could be true, but wasn't Alice a talented Auror as well? I seem to think that she was...so even if he took after his mom he would have talent (which I think he does, but it's taking a while for him to come into his own).

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Julia. - Jan 2, 2005 8:08 pm (#769 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
That's entirely possible Quidam. We don't know much about Alice, except that she was an auror. If your theory holds true, that Neville takes after Alice talent wise, than we can assume that she was forgetful and courages as well. Not to mention that given the right motivation, she would be a force to reckoned with.

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skh - Jan 6, 2005 8:44 am (#770 of 1448)

Hi - I don't often post on this thread, but it is fascinating! Julia - has Neville not already proven that he, too, can be a force to be reckoned with? At least when provoked.(Book not to hand as at work, but ... )

Sarah

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Julia. - Jan 6, 2005 12:46 pm (#771 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
You are, of course correct Sarah. Neville has proven that, if provoked, he is deffinatly someone you want next to you in a battle, rather than across the field pointing a wand at you.

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Gerald Costales - Jan 8, 2005 7:26 am (#772 of 1448)

"Neville has proven that, if provoked, he is deffinatly someone you want next to you in a battle, rather than across the field pointing a wand at you." Julia

I think the fact that the wand Neville will be wheeling next time is new and not Frank's may be important.

What would Harry and Voldermort be without their wands?

. . . . . . . . "Curious indeed how these things happen. The wand chooses the wizard, remember. . . . I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter. . . . After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things - - terrible, yes, but great,"

(page 85, SS, American hardback edition)

I believe the wand destined for Neville will be equally as important as the wand destined for Harry.

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Steve Newton - Jan 8, 2005 8:03 am (#773 of 1448)

Librarian
Didn't Fawkes give up a feather in OOTP?

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Doris Crockford - Jan 9, 2005 5:30 pm (#774 of 1448)

Can that feather be used in a wand, Steve? I'm not sure if all feathers can be. I can remember reading debates about this before, but I don't remember exactly what was said.

I don't think that there's any doubt Neville's becoming more powerful. I'm just wondering how much more powerful he'll become. Will he eventually be able to master a spell before Hermione or beat her in a duel? Will he ever beat Voldy in a duel, or even face Voldy (maybe not one-on-one, but just see how his powers compare)? And Julia, it's not just Neville's power that makes me want him next to me in battle. It's his loyalty and sense of doing what's neccessary to win the battle (telling Harry not to give the DEs tHe prophecy even after they threatened to Crucio him- he knew the most important thing was keeping what the DEs most wanted out of their hands).

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Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2005 5:34 pm (#775 of 1448)

Librarian
Doris, I don't know if that feather can be used in a wand.

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constant vigilance - Jan 13, 2005 7:39 am (#776 of 1448)

art student
I wonder if Harry will tell Neville the contents of the prophecy, and that Neville was the only other boy that it could have referred to. I just think Neville and Harry have some intriguing similarities. Both had parents in the Order who had defied Voldemort several times. Both were the only children the prophecy could have been speaking of. Both lost their parents at an early age. Their parents were both killed or severally injured because they give in to threats. Harry grew up with people who abused him. Neville's grandmother loves him but she is strict with him.

I don't know why but Harry and Neville's path feel connected somehow. Neither of them have ever had the chance to talk with their parents. All they know about them is what people share. And both attacks were well-known in the wizarding world and considered especially heinous. I think the MoM battle spoke a great deal to me. It was Neville and Harry versus the DE's...and I wonder if that sort of thing will happen again with Voldemort.

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the7eagle - Jan 14, 2005 8:57 pm (#777 of 1448)

Just a thought that came to me
as i read the last 60 posts on this thread

no ideas to support it except maybe Nevilles demeanour

the curse that hit the Longbottoms was actually meant
for Neville, so as to threaten them & get information from them about voldemort

but it rebounded on to the Longbottoms

AlbusRiddle - Sep 17, 2003 2:55 pm post #77,
is very close in suggesting something like this,
but then I don't think he suggests the same thing


theEagle

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Gerald Costales - Jan 15, 2005 5:37 am (#778 of 1448)

(The following post is based on my post #1210 on the Hermione thread. ;-) GC)

The moment of truth thus far for Neville, I believe was when Neville decided to join the group going to the MoM. None of the six members of that group could have known that a rescue attempt of Sirius at the MoM would lead to a confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters. Neville ultimately proved himself a talented Wizard in the Battle at the MoM. And I can't wait to see Neville further evolve into an even better Wizard in Books 6 & 7.

I think most of us may picture Ron by Harry's side in a tough situation. Ron was there with Harry when they meet Aragog and also when Gilderoy tried to blast both Harry and Ron with a Memory Charm. Ron was even with Harry when they both rescued Hermione, who was trapped by that Mountain Troll.

But in that Final Confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters, I wouldn't be surprised that either Hermione or Neville is there instead of Ron. (Hopefully Ron is alive and just not present at that Final Confrontation. But, you never know.)

A new wand can only help Neville evolve into a better Wizard. Also, hopefully the DA is present in Book 6. Training with the DA will further Neville's evolution and growth as a Wizard. ;-) GC

PS It all about the Wand. Just look at Harry's and Voldermort's Wands. Or is it simply Fawkes. ;-) GC

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Ann - Jan 15, 2005 7:14 am (#779 of 1448)

the7eagle, I think JKR has refuted the idea that the DEs were after Neville rather than his parents. Check out the FAQ on her web site. And in any case, the curse that made them insane was the Cruciatus curse, probably many, many of them. If it had bounced, the person who cast it would presumably have re-directed it.

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Choices - Jan 15, 2005 9:49 am (#780 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Ann - it was not just one quick curse that made the Longbottoms go insane. It was repeated over and over until they could not take any more and lost their minds. I think Neville probably witnessed this torture and so a powerful memory charm was placed on him that affects him to this day.

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Steve Newton - Jan 15, 2005 10:09 am (#781 of 1448)

Librarian
I can't see how Neville could have witnessed the torture. I think that the DEs would have used torturing him the method of making the Longbottom's talk. Of course, maybe they did and that is what has been wiped from his memory. (Assuming that anything has been wiped from his memory.)

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the7eagle - Jan 16, 2005 4:45 am (#782 of 1448)

Ann thanks for the reply

was just thinking out loud

just taking the opportunity to ask you if you have
any saved posts from ron is dd thread
have read your opinon on the time travel & ron thread
Myself am a supporter of ron is dd but was unable to read that thread before it was munched

Anyway Thanks

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Catherine - Jan 16, 2005 5:35 am (#783 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
The7eagle,

It would help all of us read and understand your posts much better if you would remember to use capital letters at the beginning of your sentences and punctuation at the end of them.

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Ann - Jan 16, 2005 1:20 pm (#784 of 1448)

The7eagle, The theory was worked out by people on another site. The link is
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2005 4:58 pm (#785 of 1448)

There are two problems I see with the Chess game being a pattern. First, it does not factor in the increasing importance of Neville and Ginny Second, it does not account for the possible effect Luna will have on the series.

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Gerald Costales - Jan 17, 2005 1:34 pm (#786 of 1448)

"There are two problems I see with the Chess game being a pattern. First, it does not factor in the increasing importance of Neville and Ginny Second, it does not account for the possible effect Luna will have on the series." Nathan Zimmermann

Maybe Neville, Ginny, and Luna are mere Pawns.

Seriously, I've thought all the students that went to the MoM will be more important in Book 6. Neville is growing in confidence and Wizard ability. Also, Neville will have a new Wand. (I've predicted Neville's new Wand will be Holly, same as Harry's, with a Dragon Heart string core.) And remember Neville is a Gryffindor, so bravery is a given.

Since the end of CoS, Ginny has steadily growth from just Ron's shy and quiet baby sister into an assertive and brave young woman. And Luna, well I think there is more to Luna then an etheral eccentric side kick to Ginny.

I hope most of the major Characters, especially all of the students (including the Slytherins) make it beyond Book 7. ;-) GC

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2005 6:44 pm (#787 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I also wonder if Neville will ever be able to dreg up enough hatred to use a killing charm. His reaction to fake Moody using the Crucio on the spider in GoF was so severe and his knowledge of the effects of the curse on his parents just leads me to believe that he couldn't do it to another human being even a DE.

Mikie

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 21, 2005 11:02 pm (#788 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"I also wonder if Neville will ever be able to dreg up enough hatred to use a killing charm."

Hopefully he will learn from others like Dumbledore, that there are more ways to incapacitate a person without killing them. A stunning spell comes to mind.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 22, 2005 4:32 am (#789 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Agreed TBY. The wizarding worlds future renown herbologist does not need more than that. I hope.

Mikie

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Weeny Owl - Jan 22, 2005 8:08 am (#790 of 1448)

I'm not sure that hatred is necessary to be able to cast an Avada Kedavra Curse. Granted, Barty Crouch, Jr. was a Death Eater, but I don't think he hated the spider he killed... he just had the power to do it.

Bella said you had to want to cause pain and enjoy causing it to be able to cast the Cruciatus Curse, and that is something I could never see Neville do.

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Wand Maker - Jan 22, 2005 9:58 am (#791 of 1448)

Weeny Owl - Yes, on reflection I think you are correct. Rereading Moody's demonstration of the Cruciatus Curse, "saw that Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in fron of him, his knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified."

I had originally though that the clenched, white knuckles meant anger, not paralallizing fear.

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Robert Dierken - Jan 22, 2005 11:59 am (#792 of 1448)

I wonder what happens to a wizard who is entirely covered with bubble gum?

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Catherine - Jan 22, 2005 12:19 pm (#793 of 1448)

Canon Seeker
Robert, I'm a little confused by your question about a wizard covered with bubble gum.

Did I miss something a while back in this thread?

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Robert Dierken - Jan 22, 2005 12:33 pm (#794 of 1448)

Neville's mother gave him a bubble gum wrapper, which he has kept. Does he do something with the gum or the wrappers?

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haymoni - Jan 22, 2005 7:29 pm (#795 of 1448)

I don't think our beloved Neville will have ANY trouble coming up with enough anger to zap Bella.

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Wand Maker - Jan 22, 2005 7:38 pm (#796 of 1448)

I am eager to see how much more Neville's confidence will increase in the next book with his own wand.

We might find out what Neville is doing with all of the gum wrappers he is getting from his Mom. Could they be used in a healing spell ("objects from a loved one, blankly given")... nah.

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Ann - Jan 23, 2005 7:18 am (#797 of 1448)

I think that the point of the Bella's remark about the Cruciatus curse (and probably the AK curse, by extension) is that you have to want to cause pain--in other words that you have to be able to focus on the causing pain part, and not just be angry. Righteous anger alone won't do it. Obviously that's going to be easier to do if you enjoy causing pain (which Harry doesn't particularly, but the DEs presumably do). But I think with sufficient focus, one could cause pain without that enjoyment. Likewise, one could use the AK to kill without hatred if one sincerely wanted the person dead (perhaps because their suffering was unbearable or because they were going to kill you or other people). Hate, like the love of pain, would help, but isn't required.

But I think that if one is terrified by the thought of being responsible for pain or death, it might be very difficult indeed to do either of them. This might be a problem for Neville, and probably also Hermione--people with a high emotional intelligence and awareness of the consequences of their actions.

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Wand Maker - Jan 23, 2005 8:04 am (#798 of 1448)

I agree Ann.

In general, I don't believe the kids have had enough experiences to be able to use the curses. There are exceptions and they are person-to-person ones: Harry-Snape, Harry-Draco, Ron-Draco, (Draco and about anyone he doesn't like), and yes Neville-The Lestranges. Neville has grown up, seeing his parents not recognize him, all but being an orphan, because of the Lestranges. As Neville's confidence builds, I expect that he will have better than average wizarding powers.

I would prefer that Neville and the others take the high road and not use any of the Unforgivable Curses, but they might need to in order to sway a duel in their favor (I don't know if the Cruciatus Curse is easily blockable).

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 8:17 pm (#799 of 1448)

I have a question in PoA, how did Sirius know that Neville kept a list of the passwords to the Gryffindor Common Room?

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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 8:25 pm (#800 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Probably learned it from Crookshanks and Crookshanks probably stole it from Neville and gave it to Sirius.

Mikie

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 801 to 850)

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Bathilda - Feb 2, 2005 3:44 pm (#801 of 1448)
SAHM (of two wee ones)
I think that Sirius says that Crookshanks brought it to him right in the text, when he's telling the whole story in the Shrieking shack. I'll check.

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MoonRider - Feb 7, 2005 12:44 pm (#802 of 1448)

Hi All!

I have a couple of things on my mind about Neville:

1) Has anybody been thinkin' that Neville has had his memory modified? Seems t'me like I read this in somebody's post, put I can't remember.....

Remember, with Bertha Jorkins, Barty Crouch, Sr. put such a strong spell on her (to modify her memory) that it made her forgetful? The question of his forgetfulness has really plagued me.

2) For some reason I get the feeling that DD is Neville's grandfather, and is married to the grandmother that took him to see his parents at St. Mungo's----I'm not really sure why.....

I just finished reading Book 5 again----something that struck me, that I had forgotten, was when Barty Crouch, Sr. appeared in the forest he asked Harry "are you.... his?". I know Neville saw his grandfather die----but, everybody's got TWO, right?

Also, his grandmother said, when they saw HRH at St. Mungo's, that the Weasleys were a fine family----that she didn't know them personally-----but that they were a very fine family. (DD thinks highly of them----that's not really any kind of proof, but....)

3) I've been wond'rin' if Great-Uncle Algie is a bad wizard.....

I know I saw this in another post, as well......

For some reason I got the idea that he is. I guess, because we've seen so many pure-bloods who are such terrible people. I'm thinkin' he gave that toad to Neville so that the toad can do/have access to do something bad----like, hatch that Basilisk!

Whadaya think?

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The giant squid - Feb 7, 2005 3:04 pm (#803 of 1448)

As for your first point, do a search of this thread for the phrase "memory charm" and you'll see quite a few hits. That idea has been floating around pretty much since CoS introduced the concept to us.

Can't really say much about the rest, other than they're very interesting, and I can't quite prove them false (much like the DIGS theory)...

--Mike

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Neville Longbottom - Feb 7, 2005 3:53 pm (#804 of 1448)

If Dumbledore is the giant squid, and Neville is Dumbledore's grandson, is Neville a little squid, then?

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haymoni - Feb 7, 2005 4:23 pm (#805 of 1448)

I thought when Mr. Crouch asked "Are you...his?" He mean Voldy's - are you one of Voldemort's supporters?

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Julia. - Feb 7, 2005 9:35 pm (#806 of 1448)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Really Haymoni? I thought he meant Dumbledore--Are you one of Dumbledore's students?

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skh - Feb 9, 2005 9:43 am (#807 of 1448)

Can some one give the rest of the "are you... his?" quote and / or context? I don't reember it or know where in book 5 it is...?

Sarah

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Choices - Feb 9, 2005 9:44 am (#808 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I just read that last night - here is the passage:

"I'm a student at the school," said Harry looking around at Krum for some help, but Krum was hanging back looking extremely nervous.

"You're not.....his?" whispered Crouch, his mouth sagging.

"No," said Harry without the faintest idea what Crouch was talking about.

"Dumbledore's?"

"That's right," said Harry.

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skh - Feb 9, 2005 9:47 am (#809 of 1448)

Thanks - that was quick!

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Madam Rosmerta21 - Feb 22, 2005 12:15 pm (#810 of 1448)

Voldemort definately did know that it was either Harry or Neville. Dumbledore said it himself. Voldemort chose Harry, the half blood like himself, not the pure blood (Neville).

Everyone is at risk, besides Neville. Neville seems like the ultimate candidate for sacrficing himself for Harry though. I think if Neville does get killed it will definately be something of that nature.

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Neville Longbottom - Mar 19, 2005 2:10 am (#811 of 1448)

I want to post in this thread again, because I don't want it to disappear.

What do you think, which NEWT subjects might Neville take?

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Albus Silente - Mar 19, 2005 6:24 am (#812 of 1448)

I am sure he WILL take herbology

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LooneyLuna - Mar 19, 2005 2:42 pm (#813 of 1448)

And Defense Against the Dark Arts for sure.

Maybe Transfiguration.

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Neville Longbottom - Mar 19, 2005 3:19 pm (#814 of 1448)

Yes, I thought that he might even take Potions. Of course it is unlikely, that he will fulfill Snape's standards. I am torn on this. I want Neville to get rid off Snape, but I also want him to stand up to him, therefore I'm not sure if I want him to take Potions or not.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 19, 2005 7:00 pm (#815 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Muggle studies! Boy needs all the help he can get! :-)

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Puck - Mar 19, 2005 9:12 pm (#816 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Neville may be getting braver, but I don't think he'd choose a year of Snape. He'll take subjects where is confidence will be boosted, and that will be what helps him.

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Ydnam96 - Mar 20, 2005 12:05 am (#817 of 1448)

I have a feeling all of them, Ron, Harry, Neville, and Hermione will be in Advanced Potions. We wouldn't be able to loose seeing Snape now could we? And what is a potions class without Neville?

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Puck - Mar 20, 2005 9:12 am (#818 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I guess it depends on his carer plan. I can see him wanting to be a healer, to perhaps help his parents one day. In that case he would need potions. If, however, his futre path doesn't require it, he may opt out. I net he, like Harry, did better than anticipated in the exam, as Snape wasn't breathing down his neck. Showing up to an advanced class with high OWL marks would be a way to say "In your face" while appearing respectful of the professor.

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Choices - Mar 20, 2005 9:32 am (#819 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I think Neville will need Potions. He is good at Herbology and he will need to know how to brew up the plants into useful potions. I think the two subjects go hand in hand.

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Ponine - Mar 20, 2005 1:59 pm (#820 of 1448)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
That is what I was thinking too, Choices - and it would be nice if Neville could get his confidence in potions up a bit, if the two perhaps later on do merge a bit more.

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Choices - Mar 20, 2005 4:41 pm (#821 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Neville needs to get his confindence up in everything, including "life". I think he is on his way to doing that - the DA has given him confidence is his wizarding ability and I think getting a new wand that is his own, that chooses him, will help him even more. He showed courage in that MOM fight and that should boost his confidence. He has a ways to go, but he is getting there. I'm so glad, as I really like Neville.

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magicgirl - Apr 1, 2005 8:11 pm (#822 of 1448)

It will be interesting to see how Neville does in his OWL's. Being away from Snape for that exam might of actually helped him with his result. He just needs a bit of confidence which I think he is slowly getting.

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Hexenhammer - Apr 2, 2005 2:31 am (#823 of 1448)

Edited by Apr 2, 2005 2:35 am
I’ve noticed something about timid little friend. First he stands up to his friends in the common room and tells them they can’t leave. Later he stands up to Draco and fights him no less! Then Neville challenges not one but a pack of Death Eaters! Who would have thought that possible after the first book? So who is Neville going to stand up to next? My list is this: Voldemort, Snape , His Gran and Bellatrix Lestrange.

Voldemort: Neville became involved with Voldemort by virtue of the prophecy. Of the four this is the one I have the least ideas about other than Neville will be important in defeating Voldemort.

Professor Snape: This will be the hardest one to stand up to. Snape will have power over Neville as long as the boy is in his class. That’s also why I see Neville taking potions though out the books. Adversity is making the boy stronger and maybe this is how he shows his mettle. It would be easier of him not to take the class and avoid the grief. I personally would love to see Snape lash out at Neville and Mr. Longbottom gather his courage and not back down from Snape.

The whole class went silent. Professor Snape’s face twisted with wroth. His sallow checks turned livid red. His beetle black eyes were rimmed with white hate as he tried to control himself.

“What did you say Mr. Longbottom?” Snape snarled. His voice held more venom than anyone thought possible. The classroom remained absolutely still. An electric charge was in the air.

“No.” replied Neville defiantly. His voice was clear and as loud as unexpected lightning.

50 points and a detention later no one would look at him the same.

His Gran: I don’t see this one being played in the books but may be later in life. This will be about image and perception. His Gran sees him as a little incompetent boy that she must protect and Neville is becoming a competent young man that can survive on his own.

Bellatrix Lestrange: Neville gets Bellatrix Lestrange and there will be much satisfaction in his defeating of her. It will be poetic justice for all she has done to his family. Right now I see Bellatrix as Neville’s personal Voldemort.

"My name is Longbottom. Neville Longbottom."
-Hexenhammer

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Puck - Apr 2, 2005 7:16 am (#824 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Love the Snape scene! And, it's sooo possible, I can see Neville simply getting fed up and in a single moment deciding he's had enough. I'd like to add that Neville's potion will turn out perfect on that day!

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 2, 2005 7:20 am (#825 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
And it will probably slip off the table like Harry's did.

Mikie
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Lav - Apr 2, 2005 1:18 am (#826 of 1448)

Edited by Kip Carter Apr 2, 2005 12:32 am
Will Neville's Prowess in Wizardry Increase in Book 6?

I changed the title from "Will Nevilles prowess in wizardry increase, now that he gets his own wand in Half-Blood Prince?" to "Will Neville's Prowess in Wizardry Increase in Book 6?" I also edit the text slightly. - Kip 2 Apr 2005

Hello everyone! My first post here.

Let's get down it. We all know, that a wizard/witch's power or rather, how well it is utilised, depends upon the wand they use. Voldemort himself would be rather ineffective if he used, lets say, Dean Thomas's wand. Neville and Harry were both strong contenders for the prophecy. Voldie chose Harry, not Neville, for reasons we all know about. Now, Neville definitely has an enormous amount of unrealised potential. All this time, he's been using his Dad's wand, which perhaps, is not as suited to him as his own wand would be. Besides, Neville was always low on self-confidence. With the rather successful encounter with the Death-Eaters, I think his self-confidence would have greatly increased, wouldn't you agree? And since he will get his own wand, and he will have a fiery passion to get his revenge on hateful Bellatrix, I think his unrealised potential, will be harnessed. I think we'll see a very strong, powerful wizard being realised in Neville, and his own wand will, no doubt, have a strong role to play. I'd love to hear your opinions. Please feel free to post. :-)

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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 1:16 am (#827 of 1448)

I can't wait for a couple of things: First, I want to see what Gran said when she learned Frank's wand was broken. Will she be angry about this, or will she be proud and encouraging to Neville, who was able to hold his own in an encounter with the DEs and survive? Second, I can't wait to see what wand chooses Neville. I'm terribly curious about what his wood and core will be.

I believe the new wand and Neville's having faced Bella will go a long way toward helping him gain some confidence. It may take a while, but surviving Bella has to give him a boost. I do believe Neville will be more prominent in the coming books ... and I think he will do something important, as well.

Solitaire

Edit: It would be interesting to see Neville's boggart now. Will it still be Snape, or will it have changed ... to Bella? That might tell us a lot. If he still fears Snape ...

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S.E. Jones - Apr 2, 2005 9:28 am (#828 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I disagree about the wands. Ollivander does make it sound like using a custom-made wand makes you the most effective, but he doesn't, in my opinion, say that using someone else's makes you ineffective. Those are too different things. Therefore, I don't think the wand will have anything to do with Neville's powers increasing except in the way having his own wand may increase his self-confidence.
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Choices - Apr 2, 2005 9:50 am (#829 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, Ollivander does say that using another wizard's wand does not produce as good results. So, I think Neville having a wand that chooses him, and developing some confidence, will greatly increase his magical ability. I think he made great strides in the confidence department when he fought at the MOM. I was so proud of him in that fight.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 2, 2005 10:32 am (#830 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I've always interpreted that line differently, though. I think it is more of a sales pitch. It would be like saying: "and of course, you'll never have as great an auto owning experience with any other brand"... If that is what he meant, then it wouldn't really affect Neville's power at all. We haven't really seen any example of other wizard's wands being a problem. Sirius used Snape's wand just fine; Peter used Voldemort and Remus's wand just fine. I've seen people cite Neville's problems in the DoM while using Hermione's wand, but I think it has more to do with his pronounciation. As Professor Flitwick put it, "And saying the magic words properly is very important, too --- never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." (PS, ch10, pg171, US). Sure Dolohov couldn't say anything at all after Hermione's "silencio" but we've seen wizards use magic without words before. Even when Harry was under water in GoF his words didn't have any sound so nothing was mispronounced (not that I think he would mispronounce them anyway), Even if Neville didn't mean to mispronounce 'stupify', he still did. In short, I still don't think a new wand, in and of itself, will increase Neville's magic prowess. I think that, if it does at all, it will be from the confidence boost of having his own wand and the knowledge that he no longer has his father's which I think would come with the reminder that he's not in his father's league in his grandmother's eyes.

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 2, 2005 12:01 pm (#831 of 1448)

I do think the propor wand increases the magical prowess of a witch or wizard, although I also agree tha the biggest boost Neville will get from his very own wand will be confidence.

I'm thinking of the scene in Ollivander's when Harry gets his wand. None of the wands he handles do anything, until he tries the holly and phoenix feather wand, and sparks fly from it. The right wand makes the ideal focus for the magic. It makes sense that the further one gets from the ideal wand, the more difficult it would be to focus magic through it. Of course, we have no idea what Frank's wand was made of, or how different from it Neville's new wand will be.

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Ponine - Apr 2, 2005 12:01 pm (#832 of 1448)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I would have to agree, Jones. First of all, it seemed that it is relatively common to inherit other people's wands for various reasons - Neville uses his father's, Ron gets his from his older brother (Bill or Charlie?) And why would anyone give up his wand for a new one, like Ron's brother must have? Does one's wand needs perhaps change as one develops and maybe develops an inclination for charm work, curses or transfiguration? The fact that bothers me the most about Neville and his wand situation is that if there was a chance his own wand would have made a difference, he should have been given one a long time ago. I am thinking that Neville's family is so focused on his skills that they would have gotten him the moon if they thought it would help. Or at least they should have, poor boy. Hopefully though, he will, as has been said, feel more confident with his own wand, and coupled with his DA skills and facing Bellatrix, I think he can become a force to be reckoned with! Go Neville!

Crossposted with Mrs Brisbee Smile You bring up an interesting point with Harry trying various wands without any decent results. This knowledge combined with all the instances where people uses other people's wands leads me to believe that there may be an inconsistency in the books? Or perhaps that wands that are broken in are more liekly to work for most people?

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Choices - Apr 2, 2005 2:53 pm (#833 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Why would Ollivander have to use a "sales pitch" though - he rather has a monopoly in the wand business - at least in the British area. He's been in business since B.C., so he must be doing pretty well. I have to say that his comment about not getting as good results with another wizard's wand, is straight forward and the truth, not just an effort to sell a wand. We saw the results when Harry tried the wand that shot red and gold sparks. He definitely had a special "connection" with that particular wand that he didn't have with the others he tried.

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Puck - Apr 2, 2005 6:42 pm (#834 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Okay, I think if Neville's family thought his magic ability was barely there, they might be reluctant to spend money on a new wand. Why bother if he doesn't have the talent. Gran is probably the miserly type who would reuse a tea bag and come home with sugar and condiment packets in her purse.

Also, we all reach critical periods for learning certain things. A child, no matter how much instruction you give them, will not walk until they are ready. I remember struggling with dance steps, then suddenly I was able to catch on easily. Same with algebra. One day it just all made sense. I think perhaps Neville has reached that stage, that suddenly his brain is wired for magic, and things will just sort of "click".

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Lav - Apr 2, 2005 11:13 pm (#835 of 1448)

Firstly, thanks for replying everyone :-)

Solitaire, yes I'm curious about Neville's wand too! And definitely about the boggart bit. I wouldn't think that the boggart would take Bellatrix's form... Think about it. I don't think Neville fears her, as such. I think his hate for her consumes his fear. Understand me?

SE Jones, Mrs. Brisbee, Ponine, Choices, - If wands don't have a role to play in wizardry, why is there such a big fuss of going to a wand shop, and letting the wand choose you? Why are there wands made of different materials? Wizards and witches will vary in their magical prowess. Some may be better at charms, others at transfiguration or DADA, and so on. Lets put it this way, a wand has powers. Different degrees of power. Some are more powerful, some are less powerful. Obviously, a more powerful wizard needs a more powerful wand, and vice versa. Similarly, a less powerful wizard needs a less powerful wand to use it better. Get me? About Pettigrew using Voldemorts wand, well, I suppose that less powerful wizards, can use more powerful wands, for relatively simple spells. Not that Avada Kedavra's an easy spell... Well, how about putting it this way. A person who's just learnt how to drive a rickety car, won't be able to put, let's say, a ferrari, to it's best potential. He will be able to drive it, no doubt. Now a more experienced driver, will be able to put the Ferrari to much better use, and of course, he'll be able to drive the rickety car better. Both can drive the two cars, though... Am I making my point here? Feeling sort of drowsy...

The point is, wands exist, so that wizards can make better use of their powers! Obviously, the experience car driver can't drive a rickety car at 100 miles per hour!

Puck, I see what you mean. I agree with you, but I won't rule out the wand bit just yet!

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 3, 2005 5:06 am (#836 of 1448)

Lav, I guess I see wands somewhat differently than you. I think the power is all in the wizard, and the wand is a focus. I think a "powerful wand" is simply one which channels powerful magic better. The best wand for a wizard is one that suits their type of casting ability. Daylight savings started today and I've lost an hour of sleep, so it's a little hard for me to make sense.

So picture wands which are color coded by how similar they are to each other. So if a wizard's ideal wand is "yellow", then they would be able to pick up an "orange" or a "green" and still get serviceable results. "Red" and "blue" would be unsatisfactory, and "purple" would be problematic. Similar thing with power of wand; a powerful wand would provide to loose of a focus for the witch or wizard with low magical prowess, and a less powerful wand would provide a tighter focus but be unable to channel as much magical energy. None of this means that wands play no role in wizardry, it just means the wands aren't the source of the magic.

Of course, I can't prove my theory any more than you can prove yours, so we will just have to wait until Rowling decides to elaborate on the matter.

Puck, I think you are right. And the new wand will help too Smile

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Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2005 10:05 am (#837 of 1448)

Librarian
I don't see Neville as being afraid of Bellatrix. I think that she might have a special place in his thoughts. I think that anger and vengeance are more his thoughts of Bellatrix. She has made a special enemy.

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Lav - Apr 4, 2005 12:27 am (#838 of 1448)

Mrs. Brisbee, I fully understand what you're trying to say. You put what I was trying to say in a much better way. Perhaps, Neville is suited to 'yellow' and his fathers wand is on the 'red' side. Even if it's not so, even if it's let say, 'green', Neville won't be able to use his powers fully. I doubt that both Neville and Frank would be of the same 'colour'. D'you understand what I'm trying to say? Did I say, that wands are a source of magic? If I did, I must apologise for it. I guess I didn't explain myself too clearly. I agree with you on the 'focus' bit too, Mrs. Brisbee.

Steve Newton, yes, that's true. You know, if both, Neville and Harry have the chance at the same to kill Bellatrix, I wonder who's going to do it. hm...

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 4, 2005 11:03 am (#839 of 1448)

Ah sorry Lav. When you said "wands have powers", I equated "powers" with "magic". We seem to be on the same page after all Smile

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Winky Woo - Apr 7, 2005 1:39 am (#840 of 1448)

My favourite place in the world, the English Lake District
Some great ideas here! I always felt that a 2nd hand wand was a bit like a 2nd hand pair of glasses. You could use them but they wouldn't be ideal as ones prescribed just for you. Of course if they were too different to what you actually needed, that could cause some real problems!

I also thought that wands sort of wore in like shoes. You know the way they mold themselves to fit you perfectly? Someone else could borrow them but they wouldn't be quite as comfortable.

I too think that a new wand will improve Nevilles ability, even if it is only a psychological boost, having his own wand that chose him.

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 7, 2005 3:47 am (#841 of 1448)

A few post ago someone was wondering if Neville's Boggart had changed, say from Snape to Bellatrix.

I don't think so. I think having experienced Bella in all her insanity has made him more focused to either bring her to justice or revenge. He also experienced the Cruciatius Curse. I don't think he fears the curse because he probably sees insanity as a place where his parents mind is and if he were to go insane he could take consolation that he won't be alone; his parents will be there. Also if he ever had fear of the Cruciatius Curse, I think that he learned by experiencing the curse is that fear of the curse is worse than the curse itself.

I still think he fears Snape because Snape is a constant presence in his life (at least at Hogwarts). Until Neville stands up to Snape and he has to to get over his fear, he will always fear what Snape can do or say to him.

perhaps other people can say this better.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 7, 2005 7:39 am (#842 of 1448)

Let it snow!
--Winky Woo: I also thought that wands sort of wore in like shoes. You know the way they mold themselves to fit you perfectly? Someone else could borrow them but they wouldn't be quite as comfortable.--

That's more what I was thinking, Winky Woo. Thanks for the great analogy.
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Gerald Costales - Apr 9, 2005 5:10 am (#843 of 1448)

Neville has been a back burner character. Not in front, but simmering all the same. After the MoM, I think Neville's character is coming to a boil. Whether because of an increase in confidence, more practice, or a better wand - Neville has reached a point of no return. So, I do see Neville going after Bella soon.

I think Snape is a minor nuisance to Neville. Bella is the one that put his parents in St. Mungo's. This is not revenge but justice. Harry could have killed Wormtail, but spared him because it was the right and just think to do. I'm not sure what Neville will do if he has Bella in a similar situation. But, I can see Neville being goaded by Bella. And well - Bye Bye Bella. (Good riddance by the way if Neville defeats Bella.)

After Hermione and Cho, I had the feeling that Neville was the next DA member to master the Patronus Charm. It will be interesting to see what form Neville's Patronus will have. Harry's stag represents James. Will Neville's Patronus reflect either Frank or Alice? Neville’s Patronus will definitely reflect his character, a tenacious fighting dog like a British Bulldog, Old English Mastiff, Bullmastiff, Bull Terrier, etc. (If I had to choose, I’d picture Neville’s Patronus as a White Bull Terrier and not the miniature variety. Neville won‘t have a pretty Swan (Cho) or playful Otter (Hermione) Patronus. Sorry, ladies Neville will have a manly Patronus! Woof!)

Going by the info JKR gave us about wands on her website, I would guess Neville's new wand would have a Holly wood case. I believe the three cores that Ollivander uses are Dragon’s Heartstring, Unicorn Hair, and of course Phoenix Feather. I think that Neville's wand core will be Phoenix Feather. (Both Krum and Hermione have Dragon’s Heartstring, Both Cedric and Ron have Unicorn Hair . And of course Harry’s is Phoenix Feather.)

Any guesses on who Neville pairs up with? If Ginny doesn’t pair up with Harry, I think Neville and Ginny would work. Gotta jet before the Ship Police catch me. ;-) GC

PS Ron will be squiring the exotic Ms. Cho. So a Neville and Cho pairing won't happen. ;-) GC

PPS Neville's boggart is probably still Snape. Neville has too much wrath for Bella to be afraid of her. ;-) GC

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Choices - Apr 9, 2005 5:58 pm (#844 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It's easy to overlook, but Neville has shown a fighting spirit and great loyalty from the very beginning. We all think of the MOM fight in book 5 as evidence of Neville's bravery, but he has shown courage from the git-go. I am reading book one and at the Quidditch match that Snape referees (I think that is the one), Ron fights Draco in the stands and Neville bravely takes on Crabbe and Goyle. I think that showed a lot of courage and it also showed that Neville will wade into any fight to help his friends. He deserves a lot of respect for his spirit and loyalty. He also leaves Gryffindor Tower after hours to warn Harry and Hermione - who are carting Norbert up the tower to be picked up by Charlie's friends - that Draco knows and is out to get them in trouble. That showed great strength of character and bravery. You go, Neville!!

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Steve Newton - Apr 10, 2005 5:00 am (#845 of 1448)

Librarian
"Neville bravely takes on Crabbe and Goyle."

This could also be called stupid.

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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 10, 2005 6:01 am (#846 of 1448)

That showed great strength of character and bravery. You go, Neville!! --Choices

I agree with you completely. I also think Neville has shown bravery and depth from book one. It struck me that in the Forbidden Forest when they had their detention, when Draco scared Neville, Neville did exactly as Hagrid directed and sent up sparks, something neither Harry nor Draco managed when they ran into real danger.

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Ydnam96 - Apr 10, 2005 7:00 am (#847 of 1448)

Mrs. Brisbee you are correct. Neville does what he's supposed to in almost all situations! He is a good learner, in that he follows instructions. Look at him in the DA! I am of the firm belief that Neville is gonna blow us away with his new abilities when he gets his own wand and with his new found confidence. Smile Go Neville!

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Czarina II - Apr 10, 2005 10:05 am (#848 of 1448)

""Neville bravely takes on Crabbe and Goyle."

This could also be called stupid."

Ah, but bravery and stupidity often go hand in hand! ;-)

Back to the subject, I agree that Neville has shown that he is more than a clumsy weakling since the beginning of the series. However, he has only now (well, in OoP) recognised for HIMSELF that he is not a clumsy weakling. Hopefully this will lead to more character development for him in the last two books.

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Hexenhammer - Apr 10, 2005 6:43 pm (#849 of 1448)

Of all the characters I want to read about in book 6 and 7 its Neville. I think he's grown/matured the most, next to Harry.

"A hero is a coward doing the right thing when it's hardest"
-Hexenhammer

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The giant squid - Apr 11, 2005 12:12 am (#850 of 1448)

The line between bravery & stupidity is usually very thin...most of the time it depends on the results. If you do something brave & it fails, it was stupid; if you do something stupid & it works, it was brave.

By that reasoning, Neville was stupid early on (fighting C&G, standing up to HRH) but has become rather brave lately.

--Mike

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Choices - Apr 11, 2005 9:04 am (#851 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't think Neville has ever been stupid. I see stupid as doing something even when you know better, and for no good reason. Neville is intelligent - he may be timid and easily frightened, but he doesn't let that stop him from helping his friends. I think he exhibits great courage - even when he knows he's probably going to get hurt, he doesn't let that stop him from wading in and trying to defeat the bad guys to help out Harry or Ron or Hermione. He is willing to knowingly put himself in jeopardy to defend them, and that is certainly not stupid. If I were any of the threesome, I'd be thrilled to have someone like Neville on my side. He isn't afraid to stand up for what he believes is right. Does anyone ever remark that a soldier was "stupid" to throw himself on a land mine to save his friends? No! They talk about his courage and the love he showed, and that is exactly the kind of thing I think Neville would do.

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The giant squid - Apr 11, 2005 12:25 pm (#852 of 1448)

My post was poorly worded, I'm afraid. I don't actually think Neville was stupid to stand up to the trio, for example. I was trying to be funny and, not too surprisingly, fell flat.

You are absolutely right, Choices. Neville has always shown himself to be brave, just not in a flashy way. He's not the type to announce to the world about the brave deeds he's done or will do; he just does them because they need to be done. Harry's the same way, he's just under a bit more of a spotlight.

--Mike

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kj09 - Apr 11, 2005 12:26 pm (#853 of 1448)

I don't know if this has been discussed, I'm sure it has, but I'll ask anyway. Did any of the books explain how Neville can see the Thestrals? Or how he was able to jump right on the back of one in OotP? Please forgive me if this has been widely dicussed, I'm kinda new to this forum. Thanks.

Matt

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Steve Newton - Apr 11, 2005 12:37 pm (#854 of 1448)

Librarian
I just listened to this in OOTP. During the DOMC class with the thestrals Umbridge asks him who he had seen die. I wish that I could remember his answer.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 11, 2005 12:54 pm (#855 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Someone once said that "a hero is a coward who does the brave thing at the right time." Nevilee has never been a coward but he always seems to do the right thing when it is needed most.

Mikie

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kj09 - Apr 11, 2005 12:57 pm (#856 of 1448)

I found where Umbridge asks him. He says he saw his Grandad die. But is never says how he died, or how young he was. I wonder what the circumstances were.

Matt

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 16, 2005 7:04 am (#857 of 1448)

I have often wondered if Neville was present at the time his parents were crucio'd into insanity and if his witnessing this had affected his memory somehow.In CoS Neville passed out after hearing the mandrakes scream.Could this have been a clue as to he being there during the torture and hearing their screams?

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Choices - Apr 16, 2005 8:05 am (#858 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I definitely think Neville saw his parents tortured and a memory charm was placed on him at the time that was perhaps too strong for one so young and that is the reason his memory is so bad to this day.

Fainting from hearing the mandrakes scream is a bit tricky. Perhaps his earmuffs were not on properly and he heard the scream and passed out, or the scream reminded him of the screams of his parents and he had sort of a flashback and fainted from the shock. It is difficult to know which scenerio fits and that may be just what JKR intended - she is keeping us guessing.

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Steve Newton - Apr 16, 2005 7:50 pm (#859 of 1448)

Librarian
At one time I thought that Neville was a witness to the torture but then someone pointed out that the bad guys would have tortured Neville to make the parents talk. I don't see how he could have been there without being used against his parents. Unless his memory problems were caused by his torture and this parents insanity was caused by their resistance to seeing him tortured. I don't think that this works.

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mooncalf - Apr 16, 2005 8:45 pm (#860 of 1448)

You're right; I can't imagine that a lovely person like Bella would be able to resist the opportunity to torture a toddler. (I dislike her so much I won't even read her thread!) But is it possible that Neville saw what was going on but wasn't seen by the Death Eaters.

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Lav - Apr 17, 2005 3:13 am (#861 of 1448)

I agree with Choices - I definitely think Neville saw his parents tortured and a memory charm was placed on him at the time that was perhaps too strong for one so young and that is the reason his memory is so bad to this day.

Harry remembers his mum and Dad fighting with Voldemort... He remembers Lily asking Voldie to spare Harry... The dementors made him recall that... Maybe Neville's similar memories attacked him too... you know... In a way, his parents are dead... sort of the living-dead... they're not really living, you know... well, hopefully they will recover... but... Yes, it is possible, that Neville was present there without Bella realising that he was...

Neville's going to grow... he's going to mature... he's going to utilise powers such a degree that might surprise Dumbledore himself...

It's time, Neville...

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Gerald Costales - Apr 17, 2005 12:05 pm (#862 of 1448)

"It's time, Neville..." Lav

With a new Wand and his additional growth and confidence from being in the DA. And of course being at the Battle at MoM. Neville is definitly ready. Watch your back Bella. It's time, Neville... ;-) GC

PS Does anyone think Neville will be mastering the Patronus Charm soon? Hey, could Neville "sic" his Patronus on Bella? Can't wait for Book 6!!! "Sic", you can guess what type of Patronus I believe Neville will have (woof). ;-) GC

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Lav - Apr 17, 2005 9:53 pm (#863 of 1448)

Gerald, yep, I think Neville will master the patronus charm real soon... I mean, he'll have to face those damned dementors too... a dog patronus? Hm... maybe... what about a lion patronus? Gryffindor mascot... you know...

A patronus on bella? Um... I don't think it'd have any harmful effect... A patronus is used as a positive shield to oppose the negativity of the dementors, you might say...

P.S - I wonder... will Harry get rid of Bella, or will Neville... hm...

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kj09 - Apr 18, 2005 12:07 pm (#864 of 1448)

I really doubt that a measily memory charm would've been put on Neville, if he was there. There's no reason thus far for them to have not tortured him. Yes it's possible he was hiding and no one saw him, i just really doubt that they would've let him live if he was seen.

Matt

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Paulus Maximus - Apr 18, 2005 6:19 pm (#865 of 1448)

If anything has interfered with his memory (and remember, a Cruciatus Curse can do that too...) then perhaps the Dementors can break the charm...

...On the other hand, what breaks a memory charm seems to break its victim too...

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Lav - Apr 18, 2005 9:04 pm (#866 of 1448)

I'm not saying that the death eaters put a memory charm on him... maybe Dumbledore did... *shrugs* unlikely though... hm

Paulus, if the charm is done properly, I don't think it'll harm the victim... If you're thinking of Bertha, well, I doubt Voldemort would be particular in making sure that Bertha wouldn't be affected... On the other hand, what breaks a memory charm seems to break its victim too What makes you say that?

An' did you wonder, if Neville was tortured? Maybe they used the cruciatus curse on Neville too... Is that why he has such a seemingly weak memory? But then again, like kj09 said, why would the death eaters let him live? Were they prevented from killing him?

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Choices - Apr 19, 2005 8:55 am (#867 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
PAULUS - "....and remember, a Cruciatus Curse can do that too..."

Can you show us canon evidence to support your statement about the Cruciatus Curse causing memory loss? We have heard of it being used one time to such an extent that it caused insanity (the Longbottoms), but how has it caused memory loss. If the Longbottoms can't remember, it is due to their insanity, not due to the curse (except that the curse caused their insanity). If the curse had been used on them to a lesser extent, so that it did not cause them to go insane, I don't think they would have suffered any memory loss. Harry has been Crucio'ed and he has no memory loss that we know of. We know Neville has a terrible memory, but he is not insane, so I think it seems likely that Neville was just put under a Memory Charm in case he might someday remember what he had seen happen to his parents. It also seems likely that the charm may have been a bit too powerful for such a small child and it's effects are evident in Neville to this day.

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Paulus Maximus - Apr 19, 2005 9:25 am (#868 of 1448)

I thought that the Cruciatus Curse caused memory loss, since the Longbottoms did not recognize their son.

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Choices - Apr 19, 2005 9:32 am (#869 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think that is just the insanity. When terrible things happen to the mind, sometimes it no longer can recognize people. My Mom is 96 and has severe dementia and she no longer knows who I am.

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Tomoé - Apr 20, 2005 8:14 am (#870 of 1448)

Back in business
Matt -> I found where Umbridge asks him. He says he saw his Grandad die. But is never says how he died, or how young he was. I wonder what the circumstances were.

All we know is: ‘Well, my gran brought me up and she’s a witch,’ said Neville (PS ch.7, p.93)

So either his grand-father wasn't implicated much in Neville's education or he die early on.

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Choices - Apr 20, 2005 10:13 am (#871 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I read an interesting comparison of Neville and Harry last night - some of the points I had not thought about before. I will try to summarize it -

We know both boys were born at the end of July of the same year to parents who worked hard against Voldemort and had defied him three times each. Both boys grow up in environments where their self-esteem is beaten down. They both have uncles who are particularly cruel.

Neville plays a critical role in the significant events in Harry's life. In the beginning, it is Neville's Remembrall that more or less gets Harry on the Quidditch team. Neville gives Harry his wizard card out of a Chocolate Frog and that causes Harry to remember who Nicolas Flamel is. In book 2 it is Neville who finds Harry's things in disarray when Tom Riddle's diary is stolen. When Harry dreams of the door in the DOM and firsts sees it ajar, the dream begins with Neville dancing with Professor Sprout. It is Neville who is responsible for breaking the orb containing the prophesy in the MOM battle. (We know Harry didn't hear the prophesy at that time, but it is possible Neville did.) Both Harry and Neville have similar relationships with Severus Snape. We pretty much know why Snape treats Harry so badly, but we do not know what he has against Neville. Neville also has some possible ties to Sirius Black. When Neville sleeps, he is said to "snuffle" (Sirius' nickname is Snuffles) and in book 5, Neville is responsible for Sirius getting the password into Gryffindor Tower. As a child, Neville almost drowns at Blackpool Pier (could have been named for the Black family).

Neville and Harry seem to have similar sensitivities. On the train the dementors affect him almost as much as Harry. Harry and Neville can both see the Thestrals in book 5 and they both are mesmerized by the veil in the DOM.

When Harry runs away from Privet Dr. and gets picked up by the Knight Bus, he tell them his name is Neville Longbottom. In another one of Harry's dreams, he dreams he has overslept and missed the Quidditch match and is replace by Neville in the game.

JKR's description of Neville's Remembrall is very similar to her description of the orb containing the prophesy in book 5. In book 1 when Hermione uses the full Body-Bind spell on Neville, it foreshadows the way the petrified people look in book 2. In book 4 Neville gets caught in the trick step and later Harry is caught in that very step also.

OK, those are just some of the things that connect Harry and Neville. In book 1 through 4, JKR has made us practically "overlook" Neville because she portrayed him to us as clumsy and weak, but in book 5 Neville begins to gain strength. Will this trend continue into books 6 and 7 and will Neville come into his own as a truly major character? We'll have to wait and see.

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Steve Newton - Apr 20, 2005 10:20 am (#872 of 1448)

Librarian
If you check the Long Theory about Harry's Family you will find that Round Pink Spider has found much evidence that Harry and Neville are twins. I lean toward symbolic but you can check it out.

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Choices - Apr 20, 2005 10:32 am (#873 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Steve - I have read some of that. Like you, I tend to believe it is only symbolic.

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GryffEndora - Apr 20, 2005 10:49 am (#874 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Choices - Thanks for those great connections. I feel like I knew all of it but at the same time had never put it together. I also agree with you and Steve Newton that the Harry/Neville twin thing is symbolic.

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Choices - Apr 20, 2005 11:01 am (#875 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You are welcome GryffEndora - I knew them all too, but somehow seeing them all in one place really makes them more significant.

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frogface - Apr 20, 2005 3:43 pm (#876 of 1448)

Just to let you know, Blackpool is a large city in Northern England, that has an amusement park on the pier I think. I've never been there myself as I'm from South England, but blackpool is quite well known in my country because it once had one of the largest rollercoasters in the world there. So I don't think that the pier reference was a connection to Sirius. Well spotted though! Some interesting ideas.

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LooneyLuna - Apr 20, 2005 4:29 pm (#877 of 1448)

I also think that Neville and Harry are spiritual/symbolic twins, connected by the prophecy.

When Neville came to Harry's aid during the battle at the MoM, I got chills. Harry's not alone - he's got Neville! I hope they develop their friendship more in HBP.

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Choices - Apr 20, 2005 5:36 pm (#878 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Frogface - "So I don't think that the pier reference was a connection to Sirius."

Yes, I am aware that Blackpool Pier is a real place, but JKR could have chosen to use it because of the "Black" name to show a connection between Neville and Sirius. Fictionally speaking, it could be named after the Black family.

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Lav - Apr 21, 2005 11:07 pm (#879 of 1448)

Choices! Very good!!! Very very good! I overlooked some of them connections meself!!! Good observation skills! Hm...

Yes LooneyLuna, I think they will... but if he gets closer to harry, he'll have to get closer to Ron and Hermione too you know... I think all six of 'em, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna, will be much closer now... don't you?

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Choices - Apr 22, 2005 8:42 am (#880 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Lav - I wish I could take credit for spotting all of those connections, but I was just summarizing a theory I read somewhere else. I thought it was interesting - you read them and take note of them, but it is more impressive when you see them all in one spot instead of spread out through the books. They have a bigger impact when you see them all together I think.

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LooneyLuna - Apr 22, 2005 9:04 am (#881 of 1448)

Choices, where did you read this theory? If it's not too much trouble, could you point me in the right direction? I'd really appreciate it.

I certainly hope so, Lav. I think Neville would be a great friend for all of them, especially Harry though. Smile

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Choices - Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am (#882 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Looney - It was in a book called THE PLOT THICKENS - HARRY POTTER INVESTIGATED BY FANS FOR FANS - edited by Galadriel Waters. I ordered it from Amazon.com and I think it was about $15. I don't know if your local library would have it or not. It is an interesting collection of theories by members of Harry Potter forums from various countries.

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Lav - Apr 22, 2005 10:41 pm (#883 of 1448)

You're welcome choices... well, you can take the credit for posting it out here :-)

Neville'd make a great friend for Hermione too... Can't wait to see him in action! Very Happy

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Miriam Huber - Apr 25, 2005 3:37 am (#884 of 1448)

I really like the list of connections between Neville and Harry (what about Ginny? She was fond of Harry first, then went to the Yule ball with Neville, although pretending it was just because she was not old enough to go for herself?) But I did not catch the conclusion of that comparison. What is it supposed to show? That Neville is a major character? I thought that was already obvious.

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Gerald Costales - Apr 25, 2005 4:11 am (#885 of 1448)

Edited by Catherine May 17, 2005 5:06 am
If anything Neville is on the outskirts of most of the major action and events of the Series. But, the Battle at the Ministry of Magic changed all of that. Now Neville should be moving out of the shadows and into a bigger Sextet. The Trio needs to evolve. Both Ginny and Neville will be stepping up into bigger more important roles in the Series. I am still uncertain about Luna.

If anything I think Luna needs more development and someone like Cho will replace Luna in importance. Why? Isn't it obvious!!! Boy, Girl, Boy, Girl, Boy, Girl. You fill in the pairings.

PS JKR nixed a Neville and Luna pairing or else I would think Luna would have remained in the new Sextet not Cho. Besides Ron likes older women. Remember Fleur. ;-) GC

PPS Mrs. Cho Weasley. It has a certain ring to it. Don't you think. hehe ;-) GC

---->I edited this post to adhere to the guidelines of our family friendly forum.--Catherine A.<----

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Nathan Zimmermann - May 16, 2005 9:30 am (#886 of 1448)

J.K. Rowling answered the poll question on her web site regarding the significance of Neville in regards to the Prophecy.

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Ydnam96 - May 16, 2005 7:50 pm (#887 of 1448)

She did indeed and it raises a lot of questions...but the one at the forefront of my mind is the particular wording she used in one section (in white for all of you who have not read it) she said of Neville: the one who would have been KING.

That is fascinating to me...since the title of this book is about a prince and all that...it all seems fishy to me...like there's something right there under the surface that we are all just missing...but should be so clear...

Guess we'll see soon.

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Paulus Maximus - May 18, 2005 5:50 pm (#888 of 1448)

Neville is pure-blood, so he can't be the half-blood prince... but that quote about him almost being king does strike me as fishy too...

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Ff3girl - May 19, 2005 1:08 pm (#889 of 1448)

OK... he was almost the King. Why is that capitalized? Does this mean that Harry is some kind of "King?" AH!

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Choices - May 19, 2005 4:49 pm (#890 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Edited May 19, 2005 6:49 pm
I looked up "king" in my dictionary and the second meaning is really interesting. When the word is capitalized, it can mean God or Christ. Since we have talked about how Harry is to be the "savior" of the wizard world and has a thing about saving people, maybe it has this connotation? I don't mean this to be "religious" or to spark a discussion in that area at all, but I just found it interesting.

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mooncalf - May 20, 2005 4:48 pm (#891 of 1448)

I believe that "king" is also capitalized when it is used to refer to Elvis. :-)

Anything is possible, of course. Maybe poor Jo still isn't quite used to the way we pick over every single word she uses.

I still think that she was just kind of obliquely paraphrasing the title of Kipling's "The Man Who Would be King."

She does sometimes say things that don't have deep and significant meaning. Remember that Mark Evans is nobody, and Arthur Weasley will not be minister of magic.

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The Artful Dodger - May 20, 2005 5:14 pm (#892 of 1448)

On the other hand, she frequently says things which do have a deeper meaning no one realizes at first, but they jump at us at an unexpected moment. That might make it easier to handle the king: As it instantly caught the eye of many fans (including myself, who has been constantly blind on that issue), there can't be much behind it... :-)

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Robert Dierken - May 21, 2005 5:06 am (#893 of 1448)

King, when capitalized, could also refer to Larry King, Stephen King, or any of three chaps named Richard Plantagenet.

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Choices - May 21, 2005 8:06 am (#894 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think we are all aware that when "King" is capitalized it can be used in many different ways. I just found it interesting how my dictionary defined one instance of King. I in no way intended to say that was the only way King with a capital K could be used. I do think JKR meant it to be a title or designation rather than a proper name.

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Gerald Costales - May 22, 2005 10:41 am (#895 of 1448)

Don't forget - "Weasley is our KING!!!"

Don't have my book to check if it was "King Ron" with a capital "K". So, Neville being called King may not be that big a deal. But, Neville will still return for his 6th year more confident, less of a Grandmother's boy, and hopefully with his own Wand. Neville will be ready for most anything with or without a Title.

After looking at JKR's little Wand primer on her website, I've guessed that Neville's new Wand would be made of Holly (just like Harry's - Hey! Neville's B-day is July 30th to Harry's July 31st). And I don't think that it's much of a stretch to guess that Neville's Wand core would be a Phoenix tail feather. I wouldn't think that the tail feather is from Fawkes. Certainly, there must be other quality Phoenixes that have given tail feathers to Mr. Ollivander.

I also think that the Trio of HRH will grow to a Sextet including Neville, Ginny, and/or Luna. I'm not all that sure about Luna as an important part of a Sextet. I think that Cho, who can do a Patronus Charm, would be better as the 6th memeber of a Sextet if indeed there is a Sextet in Book 6.

Neville seemed on the verge of doing the Patronus Charm. Will King Neville rule 6th year? Maybe we should check back at Hogwarts during Mardi Gras. Hey, there's more than one way to be Crowned King. All Hail King Neville!!! ;-) GC

PS I wonder if Neville will be less forgetful in his 6th year? ;-) GC

PPS I think a fighting dog like a Bull Terrier or British Bulldog would be a great Patronus for Neville. What could Herimone's Otter Patronus do in a fight besides frolic? At else Cho's Swan Patronus could peck your eyes out. Remember what Fawkes did to the Basilisk's eyes. ;-) GC

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Ms Amanda - May 22, 2005 12:27 pm (#896 of 1448)

Ok, this has nothing to do with the "King" reference on Jo's site, but I'm not really sure where to post it.

I noticed, while rereading PoA today, that Snape is trying to poison Trevor. How many times does that happen? I can count at least two. One is after Neville messes up the shrinking potion in PoA, and another is in GoF while the class is making antidotes.

For what reason would Neville carry Trevor to Potions class? Why would Snape let him in? And why would he want to poison him?

So many questions...

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Choices - May 22, 2005 4:15 pm (#897 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That is curious. Ron seems to leave Scabbers in his dorm room and Harry certainly doesn't carry Hedwig around - why would Neville take Treavor to class? I will have to do some thinking on that, and I will also be trying to figure out why Treavor keeps wanting to get away from Neville.

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Steve Newton - May 22, 2005 5:44 pm (#898 of 1448)

Librarian
Gerald, I think that the trio is already a sextet. Maybe even a septet if Lupin is included. I think that he does.

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Tomoé - May 23, 2005 8:12 am (#899 of 1448)

Back in business
Why Neville bring Trevor everywhere? Because he want to keep a eye on him, of course! ^_~

Edit: he always want to escape, better not to leave it alone.

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timrew - May 23, 2005 1:38 pm (#900 of 1448)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think Neville brings Trevor to class because Trevor 'toad' him to...........

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Choices - May 23, 2005 4:31 pm (#901 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
timrew - Did you really say "...toad him to" or do you have a broken nose? LOL

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MickeyCee3948 - May 24, 2005 4:06 pm (#902 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
timrew I find that so corny that it is almost funny.

Mickey

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TwinklingBlueEyes - May 24, 2005 6:23 pm (#903 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Actually Mickey, it was so corny it was funny... leave it to Tim...ROFL! Thank you Tim for the comic relief, it's still a LONG couple of months!

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Puck - May 25, 2005 10:08 am (#904 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Someone once mentioned a toad being used to hatch a basilisk. I find that very interesting....

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Choices - May 25, 2005 4:54 pm (#905 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, a basilisk is created when a chicken egg is hatched under a toad.

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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 7:19 pm (#906 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
timrew--That was very funny about Trevor! Your posts often make me laugh. **still chuckling**

Am I the only one who wonders how a chicken egg gets under the toad to be hatched? Plus, if a toad is cold-blooded, how would it be able to generate enough heat to hatch the egg? Hmm... Maybe that's a post for another thread.

Also wondering about Neville: does it say anywhere in canon what career path he wants to take after Hogwarts? JKR has mentioned that someone will stay and become a teacher, and that it's not who we would expect (i.e. Hermoine?) I personally could see Neville being the one who becomes a teacher--this is after he shows us all his true colors and worth and that he actually is an accomplished wizard. I think Neville would be the best at relately to the short-comings in his future students.

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applepie - May 25, 2005 7:22 pm (#907 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Maybe he'll take over Herbology

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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 7:28 pm (#908 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
Exactly! That would seem the most logical! Although, and this is a HUGE stretch, if he continues to learn from Harry, and given his background with his parents being aurors, perhaps someday NEVILLE will be a DADA!!! I feel certain that he will have seen enough action fighting against dark wizards after the war ends.

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applepie - May 25, 2005 7:38 pm (#909 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Not a stretch at all. I thought exactly the same thing just after I hit the post message button. He could possibly be the first to break the curse of only staying in the position for one year...

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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 8:26 pm (#910 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
Regarding Neville's grandmother, whose side is she on? She tells Neville not to be ashamed that his parents were tortured, but she doesn't seem to have any feeling towards her son and daughter-in-law.

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mooncalf - May 25, 2005 9:34 pm (#911 of 1448)

Edited by May 25, 2005 10:34 pm
Actually, I thought that she seemed very proud of her son. She certainly not a warm-and-fuzzy type, who would still get teary after fourteen years of visiting her incapacitated relatives: she is too brusque and practical for that. Very much a stiff-upper-lip type.

But I get the feeling that she feels the loss of her son very keenly, and she takes it out on Neville. She constantly praises Frank at Neville's expense. It's as though she expects Neville to be Frank's replacement, but since he isn't exactly like her rose-colored memories of Frank, Neville is doomed to be a disappointment. Poor Neville hadn't a hope of living up to Gran's outrageously high opinion of her son. :-(

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Snuffles - May 25, 2005 11:50 pm (#912 of 1448)

Olivia
I think Gran's opinion of Neville might have changed after the MoM ordeal. I think she will be very proud that her grandson fought the D.E's and came out pretty unscathed compared to the others.

She might not be happy that Neville broke his fathers wand but I'm sure she will understand.

IMO I think she will realise she underestimated Neville and that he deserves to be a Gryffindor. This is definately the turning point for Neville and I dont think there will be any stopping him now.

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Berty Bott - May 26, 2005 7:17 am (#913 of 1448)

I wonder if his grandmother does not approve of Alice. Some of the things she says and her attitude in St. Mungos makes me think maybe she never liked Alice and didnt think she was good enough for her precious boy. We have heard that Neville looks a lot like his mother. Maybe thats why grandma takes out her grief on Neville. It happens to us Muggles all the time.

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applepie - May 26, 2005 7:37 am (#914 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
I agree with Mooncalf. I think that is just her personality. "She certainly not a warm-and-fuzzy type, who would still get teary after fourteen years of visiting her incapacitated relatives: she is too brusque and practical for that. Very much a stiff-upper-lip type." No matter how much you love and care for someone, after visiting for 14 years with the same things happening over and over (bubble gum wrappers) you tend to be a little immune to it. Whereas, someone who is just seeing this scene for the first time, as we are, tend to be very consoling and have deep sympathy for their condition and the feelings of Neville, and might consider Gran's attitude sort of cold or rude.

She may be trying to "re-live" her son's life through Neville and maybe that is why she is so hard on him. Much like Sirius was doing with Harry. But, that's just my humble opinion...

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Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 5:23 am (#915 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
I see what you all mean about Neville's grandmother--that it's just her personality with regards towards Neville's parents. And I totally agree with you appliepie that she is trying to relive her son's life through Neville.

I was thinking about wands...if the wands choses the wizard, then why do we have characters using other people's wands? Even though Neville and his dad are related (as is Ron and Bill(?)), wouldn't he have been better equipped and more able to perform his magic had he had his own wands to begin with? We often read about Neville messing up his magic. I can't help but think that could be partially attributed to his wand.

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applepie - May 27, 2005 5:42 am (#916 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Maybe that was JKR's point in him breaking his wand. Since he finally got his courage to fight, maybe the new wand, (that would be suited for him personally) will help him become the wizard Gran wants him to be.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2005 5:47 am (#917 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
applepie, I agree with what you said about gran trying to relive her son's life through Neville. Taking your thought one step further, she may also be fearful about him being harmed, hence, not allowing him to step out-of-bounds.

Not So Headless Nikki, I think that the wand has a lot to do with Neville's ineptitude. Although the characters use each other's wands, they are not supposed to work as effectively with another user. We should see a radical improvement with Neville, unless, of course, he gets another hand-me-down wand.

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Netherlandic - May 27, 2005 6:46 am (#918 of 1448)

I agree with you, Nikki, Applepie, Horntail. Neville probably got his fathers wand because Mrs. Longbottom wants him to resemble her son and because this way Neville receives a wand from a famous wizard. But it does not help Neville very much and therefore I hope that gran doesn't give Neville his mothers wand now. He should get his own. Remember Ron had to use an old wand from his brother and he wasn't too happy either.

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Nathan Zimmermann - May 27, 2005 6:01 pm (#919 of 1448)

Is it possible that Neville was given Trevor as an object lesson. So that Neville could learn the value of humility and modesty as a contrast to the haughty and overbearing pride exhibited by the Malfoy's

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mooncalf - May 27, 2005 6:23 pm (#920 of 1448)

I think that Trevor is an example of well-intentioned thoughtlessness that Neville gets from his family all the time.

Hagrid tells Harry that "Nobody has toads anymore. You'd be laughed at." Neville's family is completely out of touch with what young people want and need, perhaps because they are older. So, out of ignorance, they give Neville a gift that will cause him to be laughed at.

It's the same with the wand, It is a perfectly good wand, an heirloom, and a remembrance of someone who was beloved, but it's not right for Neville.

Neville's family are all concerned for his welfare, love him (I suppose), but they don't respect him enough to ask him what he wants or needs.

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Professor V - May 27, 2005 8:15 pm (#921 of 1448)

I don't believe that it is a lack of respect for Neville that leads to these instances, but rather the gap between the generation being raised and the generation doing the raising.

I would agree that the toad is a good example of them being out of touch. I see that with the order parents or grandparents raising some of my students.

As far as Neville being given his father's wand, I think it could be one of two situations. First, I think it is possible that he wanted it because it belonged to his dad. Much like my father has and uses some of his father's guns. He cherishes them because they belonged to his father. I can't remember off hand any mentions in the canon of Neville being forced to take the wand against his wishes.

The second possibility that I see is a generational thing. I can only assume (I know, not the best idea) that the WW wasn't totally immune to the hardships faced my the muggle world during the early to mid 20th century. If that is the case then I would imagine that Neville's grandmother might be something like my own. Practical to a fault. She may have thought along the lines of "We have a perfectly good unused wand here around the house, why should we spend our hard earned money on a new wand?" Neville has made at least one comment about money (GOF in boys dormitory, first night back). It seems to me that his gran could just be money conscious in a way most people of my generation aren't.

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mooncalf - May 27, 2005 10:32 pm (#922 of 1448)

Edited by May 27, 2005 11:32 pm
Neville may have wanted the wand because it was his Dad's, but I don't think that is primary reason he has it. When it breaks, he doesn't say "Oh no! I broke my Dad's wand," as though it was precious to him. He says "Gran's gonna kill me." It seems to me that it was more important to her than to him.

Thrift may well be part, or most, of the reason she gave it to him, but I think that there's more to it than that.

And Gran does bully Neville; I would be very surprised if she asked or listened to his opinion on much of anything. She would be the sort who assumes that she knows best, and Neville is too intimidated by her to make a strong effort to express his opinions, especially if they disagreed with hers.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2005 6:40 am (#923 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
I agree, Mooncalf. I also think that at 11 yrs. of age, the children are so overwhelmed with the Hogwarts schooling idea that their least concern is the wand they get. Think about if they gave Harry, Hermoine, or any other child a hand-me-down wand. They'd probably just say, "thanks" and go on to use it.

It would only be of more importance as they got older and realized, "Hey, this thing doesn't work as well for me" or "Wow, a Nimbus 2000!" (Meaning, that when they're older is when their awareness for brands, etc. would set in.) Also, I don't think Neville would dare retort his gran by saying, "I don't want this old stinky wand!"

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Madame Pomfrey - May 28, 2005 10:16 am (#924 of 1448)

I agree that Neville will improve once he has his own wand.If I'm not mistaken Rons magic seemed to improve after he recieved his own wand.Which reminds me..didn't Draco's mother pick out his wand while he was being robed? Oops-I think I'll take that to the Draco thread.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2005 10:24 am (#925 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
Madame Pomfrey, it was discussed somewhere on another thread, but I think it was Choices or Solitaire (sorry if I'm wrong) who pointed out that Draco merely stated that he will meet his mother at the wand shop, or something to that extent. (I'm a great help, aren't I!)

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Madame Pomfrey - May 28, 2005 10:30 am (#926 of 1448)

Thanks for the help Horntail. That prevented me from making a fool of myself on another thread. I was going to suggest that Narcissus didn't want Draco to know his full potential or something idiotic like that. LoL.

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Choices - May 28, 2005 12:21 pm (#927 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I think Draco told Harry that his Mom (Narcissa) was at Mr. Ollivander's looking at wands. I believe we came to the conclusion that Narcissa took Draco to the wand shop after the robe fitting and they bought his wand.

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haymoni - May 28, 2005 6:08 pm (#928 of 1448)

Maybe Narcissa needed a new one herself.

One for every outfit or something.

Sorry - back to Neville.

I think that a lot of grandparents who raise their grandchildren are tough cookies. They've been around the block before - they really hadn't counted on doing it again - they seem tougher.

And then to have your son still alive, but not aware of anything - too sad! I think Jo has nailed Gran's character. She'll see Neville in a new light - or maybe she'll think, "Here we go again!"

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Madame Pomfrey - May 29, 2005 4:15 am (#929 of 1448)

I'm anxious to see how Gran is going to treat Neville after the MoM event.Is she going to be proud and encourage Neville to keep on with the DA and fight or is she going to forbid him to get involved being he may be lost to her like his father was.

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Choices - May 29, 2005 8:00 am (#930 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Madame Pomfrey - "or is she going to forbid him to get involved being he may be lost to her like his father was."

It might warrant another HOWLER. LOL

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Ydnam96 - May 29, 2005 8:29 am (#931 of 1448)

I've been searching the forum for quite a while, because I know sometime I posted quite a long theory about why Neville's Gran treats him the way she does. But alas, I think it may have been munched.

Basically in quick form this is what I had to say:
Gran is conflicted when it comes to Neville. He is the embodiment of the son she lost. She wants to see him succeed because she is a good woman and really wants the best for Neville. But at the same time she is afraid of letting Neville become a good wizard for fear that she will loose her son all over again. So she is fighting between letting him prosper (fostering his growth, giving him compliments, etc) and keeping him the way he is. It must be hard for her to look and see Neville because he is a constant reminder of the son she once had. It must be even harder to go and see her son and then have to live with Neville because she wants so badly to do right by him but doesn't know how to do that because she is afraid. She must have gone through a lot in the last war and is afraid of loosing Neville too.

Poor Neville has a lot to live up to. His Gran's mixed expectations: she wants him to prove he is his father's son so she can, in essence have her son back; but at the same time wanting to hold him back so she doesn't loose him again.

It's a strange place for both of them. Poor Neville is going to have to break free from Gran and choose his own path in life. It's not that she doesn't love him or care about him. But he is a constant reminder of what she lost and what she stands to loose.

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Kip Carter - May 29, 2005 9:17 am (#932 of 1448)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Ydnam96, I have looked through my records and have searched both this thread and The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? thread for anything close to a long theory by you. I have found nothing deleted or anything greater than one-third of your most recent post above. Could you have posted it under a different username.

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Ydnam96 - May 29, 2005 2:58 pm (#933 of 1448)

Wow, thanks Kip. No I've only ever posted under this name. Have we ever had a thread just for Neville's Grandmother? Maybe I'm loosing my mind and thought I posted it here but did elsewhere??

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Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 6:21 am (#934 of 1448)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
How long ago was it? Could it have been before the great move?

That's a good point about Neville's gran. But then again she does seem almost proud of what happened to her son and daughter-in-law because of what they were fighting for when it happened (she seems to differ with Neville on this point). At least that's the impression I got from the scene in St Mungos.

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Ydnam96 - May 30, 2005 12:07 pm (#935 of 1448)

You know I have no idea, I would assume it was more recent than that...because I remember it quite well (the content) and one response I got from it. But alas I can't find it.

Maybe it was all a dream? Haha.

I do agree that she is proud, but that doesn't stop her from being sad and Neville would still be a reminder of what she lost.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2005 11:01 am (#936 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I know this may have been mentioned before, but I was re-reading JKR's answer to the last poll question on her site (about the significance of Neville being the other boy possibly referred to in the prophecy) and found this comment very interesting, "As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations." Could this possibly mean that Neville will find out and assume he was the one referred to in the prophecy?

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Miriam Huber - Jun 2, 2005 11:52 am (#937 of 1448)

Or that Dumbledore´s interpretation is incomplete or even wrong? I nevert thought that - but your remark makes me thinking, SEJ.

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Ponine - Jun 3, 2005 4:22 pm (#938 of 1448)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
SEJ - You make me want to go right back and read much more thoroughly - I LOVE the fact that forumers are so perceptive!!

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GryffEndora - Jun 3, 2005 4:50 pm (#939 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Yes, SE Jones. What I found most interesting in the answer is that she tells us what Dumbledore thinks the prophesy means not what she knows it means. I found her answer full of questions.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 3, 2005 5:06 pm (#940 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I think Gran will be overjoyed that Neville had the uumph to go after Bellatrix and come away with just minor injuries and a broken wand. She may finally give Neville his due.

Mickey

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 3, 2005 7:03 pm (#941 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
SE, you may have something there ... taking idea to prophecy thread.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 5, 2005 10:22 am (#942 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
I am not trying to seem like the devil's advocate, but do you think Neville fits the description in the prophecy?

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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 5, 2005 4:48 pm (#943 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
HH--why don't you think that Neville fits the description? I mean, given what we currently know about him, and from what Dumbledore tells Harry, how could it not also apply to Neville as well?

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Choices - Jun 5, 2005 5:20 pm (#944 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, Neville was born at the end of July to parents who three times defied Voldemort and.....well, actually that is about all I can think of that fits Neville. Unless we are being kept in the dark, I don't think Voldemort marked him or transfered some of his powers to him and I am not aware of a power that Neville has that the Dark Lord knows not. If he has it, we don't even know about it. We know he means well and is loyal and brave. He has a terrible memory and is terrified of Snape. He has never faced Voldemort or fought him that we know about. I will be very surprised if the prophesy is about Neville and not Harry.

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Camden Zoe - Jun 5, 2005 9:06 pm (#945 of 1448)

Has Neville ever been transfigured into something else? I'm supposed to give an answer to this: Name me some time(s) where Neville Longbottom has been transfigured into something else. But I just can't think of any for some reason. Does anyone know? Thank you much.

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frogface - Jun 6, 2005 3:15 am (#946 of 1448)

He's transplanted a cactus on to his ears once I think but other than that no! For Neville to become the One, Voldemort would have to mark him some way. Which means that Neville is not the One yet as far as we know, but could later become the One. However while I believe Neville will has a big part to play in the downfall of Voldemort, I don't believe he is the One. I thought it would turn out to be a plot twist at first but I think I'd be disapointed he did turn out to be the One over Harry.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 6, 2005 4:22 am (#947 of 1448)

Let it snow!
I wasn't saying that Neville is the 'one', just that he (Neville) might think he is, based on the prophecy, or part of it. As Choices pointed out, he was born at the end of July to parents who thrice defied Voldemort. That was all that Voldemort heard and if that is all that Neville will hear, he might jump to conclusions. I think there was a reason that JKR said her prophecy is vague, even for her characters. I think it is entirely possible that Neville, or I suppose someone else, might jump to such a conclusion and I'm curious as to how Neville might handle it...

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Berty Bott - Jun 6, 2005 7:04 am (#948 of 1448)

Nevelle turned into a canary when he ate the twins' canary custard.

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ellebell86 - Jun 6, 2005 8:28 am (#949 of 1448)

The one thing that bothers me about the possibility of Neville being the one to vanquish Voldermort is that the series is Harry Potter and the ... I don't think that Neville could take the lead role. Neville could possibly hear the prophesy and think that it applies to him. If he talked to Harry about it then obviously he would realize that he is not the one but that Harry is. But Harry was so freaked out by the prophesy that he didn't talk about it to anyone so Neville might believe that he is the one for a while.

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Liz Mann - Jun 6, 2005 8:48 am (#950 of 1448)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
He's transplanted a cactus on to his ears once I think but other than that no!

Actually he transplanted his ears onto the cactus, not the other way around.

I definately don't think Neville is the one the prophecy is talking about, not unless J.K. is keeping some extremely important information from us.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 951 to 1000)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:32 am

frogface - Jun 6, 2005 9:04 am (#951 of 1448)
That was it! Lol, thanks Liz. I knew a cactus and his ears were involved at any rate!

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Camden Zoe - Jun 6, 2005 9:49 am (#952 of 1448)

Berty Bott, when did Neville eat the twins' custard? Just curious as to which book/year it occurred in. Thanks much!

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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 9:57 am (#953 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I remember it and am thinking it is in book 5 somewhere, but don't have time to look for it right now. I hope someone else will know where to find it.

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GryffEndora - Jun 6, 2005 10:26 am (#954 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
It's in GoF after the quidditch victory in the same scene when Hermione asks the twins how to get into the kitchens. First Fred offers Hermione a jam tart and tells her it's the custard creams she has to worry about. Neville then spits out the custard cream he just bit into. Fred tells Neville he was only joking, Hermione asks about the kitchens, Fred mocks her efforts at elf liberation, Neville eats the canary cream, bursts into feather then molts and everyone laughs. Then the twins offer the canary creams for sale at I think 7 sickles each, a bargain.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 6, 2005 2:21 pm (#955 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
The only way I can imagine that Neville would consider that it may be himself is if he's only heard the first part of the prophecy. I don't think DD and Harry will want Neville to know more than he must, so he will probably just have to take their word for it that it isn't Neville. Sorry for the misinterpretation of your post, I understand now, S.E. Jones what you meant.

But even if there were two million who fit the first two sentences, if the prophecy was meant for Harry, nothing will change that. In Chap. 37 of OotP, DD gives us information regarding two interpretations, his own and the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy's. In his words, it states, " . . .and he chose you, not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse".

It seems too precise for it to be turned into something else especially at this juncture.

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GryffEndora - Jun 6, 2005 2:26 pm (#956 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
HHII - but if Neville actually heard the prophesy when it broke, he may think the prophesy could mean him. After all, he wasn't in DD's office to hear his explanation of the prophesy. Neville may approach Harry with the prophesy thinking Harry does not know what it says.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 6, 2005 2:47 pm (#957 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
If Neville doesn't mention to anyone that he heard it - I also think he did hear it, GryffEndora - then he may misinterpret it as Harry did. But Harry was under extreme duress when he heard it which is why he questioned the parts he didn't want to believe.

I see the point you and S.E. Jones are trying to make. Neville is not in denial and should have the presence of mind to think it over objectively. He is also quite humble and would think it is Harry right off. However, his memory stinks and he may have forgotten the middle chunk. JKR could have been setting us up by Harry asking questions that seemed obvious to the reader for the Neville incident to come (as we are assuming). The "mark him as his equal" part seems self explanatory to me.

It seems as though we have two forks in the road, one that asks whether or not Neville has heard or will hear the prophecy and the other as to how he will handle it. My hunch: He heard it in the MoM, as GryffEndora stated, he only remembers the part Big V knows and will have to believe DD and/or Harry if he confides in them. Neville probably thinks neither Harry nor anyone knows its contents and may just carry this around on his own. If he does confide in someone, there is the danger of Big V finding out and attacking Neville in an effort to hear the rest of the prophecy. That could get ugly. He may be the one to die. Remember what Big V did to Bertha Jorkins?

There are just too many factors involved.

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Crimson1 - Jun 9, 2005 9:41 am (#958 of 1448)

OK, totally off the current topic, but I didn't know where to put this outlanding thought: Could Trevor be the Half-Blood Prince?

Here is why: he keeps popping in and out of the story, like Scabbers did before Scabbers was revealed to be more than a rat and it would be traditionally fairy tail-ish to have a frog be a prince under a spell.

I apologize for taking away from the general discussion, but it hit me the other night and I had to get it out there, even if it is met with laughs and/or derision which it most probably deserves. If this idea has been posted already, again my apologies for the redundancy.

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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 9, 2005 1:42 pm (#959 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
Crimson1--your theory is certainly not off the target. I think I have read somewhere too that he could possibly be the HBP. But can you really be a half-blooded toad? Not sure about that one. In any event, it has been stated several times on this thread that there is more to Trevor than we currently know of.

edit* Okay I just read what I wrote and realized that if Trevor were an animagus of someone else, then he certainly could be half-blooded. Sorry for the confusion.

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dobbyiscool - Jun 9, 2005 2:12 pm (#960 of 1448)

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
I have a question (and if it's been discussed before, please point me in the right direction): Why if Neville fell (or dropped) from the window and bounced to safty (when his Uncle was holding him by the ankles and dropped him) did he break his wrist from a similar fall off of a broom (during his flying lesson)?

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Ms Amanda - Jun 9, 2005 2:12 pm (#961 of 1448)

Edited by Jun 9, 2005 3:14 pm
Well, Trevor wouldn't HAVE to be an animagus. An animagus is a witch or wizard who has mastered transfiguring into an animal while still retaining her or his mind. Human transfiguration into an animal and NOT retaining your human-like thought processes is an easier bit of magic, I understand. Aren't toad-princes usually FORCED to be toads? Maybe he was transfigured by someone else and at the moment does not retain the ability to THINK like a human being.

Oh, and I am a great fan of this theory because I am a Neville and Trevor fan.

Edit: crossposted with dobbyiscool: Well, if Neville bounced earlier and did not bounce then, I would guess that he was not using emotional magic the second time. Maybe you only have a certain amount of emotional magic, and the out-of-control broom was where his emotions were concentrated.

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Liz Mann - Jun 9, 2005 3:15 pm (#962 of 1448)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe his uncle was dangling him out of the window for several minutes before he accidently dropped him, enough time for Neville to get scared enough to work up the magic to save him. Whereas with the broom, he rose and fell so fast he probably didn't have time. Also, the magic might have saved him a bit with the broomstick. After all, he fell fifty feet and only broke his wrist!

I like the theory that there's more to Trevor than meets the eye. Although maybe that doesn't mean he's actually human. J.K. wouldn't have two students' pets turn out to be wizards in disguise, surely. It's the same storyline twice. But he does seem to be making rather deliberate attempts to escape. (I still want to know how come in book 1 he turned up in the boat after Neville lost him on the train).

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Crimson1 - Jun 9, 2005 6:46 pm (#963 of 1448)

I guess I was thinking that Trevor might be half human, half something else and that's where JKR is getting the Half-Blood part. I don't think in this world there have been half-human, half-aminals and I wouldn't like it if there were. Too many bad implications. But what if Trevor were half-human, half-elf or something and got cursed into toad-dom. Maybe he was cursed because he left his family without permission. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws?

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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 9, 2005 6:47 pm (#964 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
I think a better question would be, "Why was Neville's uncle Algie dangling him out of the window?!?" I mean, what sort of person DOES that? I think Neville bounced the first time because he was younger and his "inner magic" helped him to save himself. He might not have realized that he was going to fall and that falling out of a window would cause him to get hurt. Whereas when he fell off his broom he was older and obviously knew that falling off of a broom was going to hurt him. Almost like by thinking, "This is going to hurt!" he made himself get an injury. There is a really good essay on this topic here in the Lexicon. I think it's called something like, "That Had To Hurt...Or Did It?"

I wasn't trying to say that Trevor was another animagus, simply that in order to be half-blooded he would most likely have to be a wizard in disguise--either from being made to be a toad or that he willfully transformed himself. I certainly like the whole "fairy-tale" aspect of Trevor being a prince! Smile

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applepie - Jun 10, 2005 6:27 am (#965 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Nikki, I'll tell you what sort of person does that........None other than Michael Jackson, except he uses his own children, not someone else's.

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Miriam Huber - Jun 10, 2005 7:01 am (#966 of 1448)

Please calm down. As far as I remember, uncle Algie did it to "force" some magic out of Neville. (And he purposely only dangled him out of the window, he didn´t drop him on purpose.) And as Neville´s family is pure-blood, there would be St. Mungo´s to patch Neville up afterwards if he had really had get hurt. So it is neither in intention nor in possible outcome as horrible as it sounds at first.

Not that I want so say it was sensible, though. By the way, this seems to me to be one of the many examples we have seen throughout the series that the wizarding world is more violent, more dangerous, less security-centered than our world. And "world" doesn´t only mean the beasts etc. but also the way people behave.

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applepie - Jun 10, 2005 7:30 am (#967 of 1448)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
I definitely understand his little "test" of Neville. That is why I am so eager for Neville to prove himself to his family. It will be such a glorious moment for him.

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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 10, 2005 8:53 am (#968 of 1448)

Proud member of FSODUHP!
Applepie--I am STILL laughing about your comment about Michael Jackson!! Too funny!

Anyways...I realize that Algie did it as a test, but it just really makes me wonder what sort of person Uncle Algie is. I mean, look at that plant he gave Neville? A plant that shoots pus at people doesn't exactly invoke feeelings of love from me towards it. And here Neville wants to breed that thing! Yuck!!

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Choices - Jun 10, 2005 8:59 am (#969 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Uncle Algie is a good guy - just sort of eccentric. Neville obviously loves the plant he got from him and Trevor.

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GryffEndora - Jun 10, 2005 12:20 pm (#970 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Yes, Choices, Neville does love Trevor and the plant but then again he was dropped on his head as a young child. Could have addled his brains a bit.

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phoenixfire - Jun 12, 2005 1:07 am (#971 of 1448)

You know when harry is getting his wand in the first book, and Hagrid says that the wand chooses the wizard? How come then does Neville use his fathers old wand [well before it broke], I mean did the wand choose him or did he just use it anyway? That could mean that with a new wand, suited to him alone Neville could be better at spells [although not entirely!].

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 12, 2005 3:55 am (#972 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
Yes, doradarling, that's what we're figuring. That once Neville gets his own wand (unless Gran has another hand-me-down), he should come into his own.

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Choices - Jun 12, 2005 7:48 am (#973 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Then again, is that line about the wand choosing the wizard just something Ollivander told Harry? We have never heard another witch or wizard mention anything about their wand choosing them and we have seen other wizards use wands that were not their own with no problem. Peter, Sirius, Barty, Jr. - just for example.

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GryffEndora - Jun 12, 2005 10:29 am (#974 of 1448)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Choices, I completely agree. We know the wand chooses the wizard and that no wizard will ever get as good results with another wizard's wand but the way the Wizarding world behaves leads me to believe that we are in on a little known fact here. I don't think this is widely known information because if it was no one would use hand-me-down wands, and obviously many people do.

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Miriam Huber - Jun 12, 2005 10:43 am (#975 of 1448)

I remember very well how it was when I got the violin I play now. I had already one but was searching for a better one. I tried a few but when I played this one for the first time, everything was clear. We needed to stay together! I just can´t describe it. Of course, it is quite a good instrument, but that was not the decisive point. I also played some other instruments which (I almost wrote "who" - violinists and their instruments! We really treat them as if they were sentient - AS IF?!) were "objectively" better, but it just wasn´t the same. So, in a way, it "chose" me rather than I chose it.

What I want to say with this comparison:

1. You will not get such good results with another wand, but you can use it. And like all learners who don´t have the best equipment until they are "professionals" (or until they have the money), why should kids of eleven years or some years older absolutely have the best-fitting wand when they just start magic and there is a spare wand at home? I can quite imagining that reasoning (although I myself would of course advise to give them "their" wands as soon as possible, but that´s another thing, I just try to imagine the reasoning in the wizarding world, of Grandma Longbottom and the Weasleys and surely many others.)

2.That the wand chooses you and not the other way around doesn´t say there isn´t more than one wand that suites you. By the way, Ollivander talked about remembering Lily Evans buying her "first" wand, and as we know she died pretty young, it looks to me that wands don´t last as long as twenty years or so. (But, of course, she might have had an accident with her wand just like Ron, we don´t know - wow, luckily violins last hundreds of years. One of my most, most horrible nightmare was accidentally damaging my violin!).

Conclusion: I am not confused about the "choosing" and "second wand" thing, I don´t see the problem.

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Czarina II - Jun 13, 2005 9:19 pm (#976 of 1448)

Er, a bit off-topic, but does it actually say that James and Lily had more than one wand? Just because Ollivander said "first" doesn't necessarily mean that they bought more. "First" can also mean "only".

But otherwise, I agree with several of the above posters. It is perfectly all right to use hand-me-down wands, and perhaps more practical and/or economical than buying everyone a new one. That said, I think Gran Longbottom was hoping that by giving Neville Frank's old wand, she could turn Neville into Frank.

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Netherlandic - Jun 14, 2005 4:20 am (#977 of 1448)

I agree also, en of course a wand (from Ollivanders) costs 7 Galleons so it is rather expensive.

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Neville Longbottom - Jun 15, 2005 2:40 am (#978 of 1448)

While that's true, I do not think that money is really an issue for the Longbottoms. At least not to that extent that they couldn't afford a wand for Neville. They seem to me a rather wealthy family and very well off. It's just the impression I have when I read about their scenes.

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vball man - Jun 15, 2005 5:10 am (#979 of 1448)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Personally, I would buy two right off the bat. I mean, one "expelliarmus" and your wand is taken - then you're vulnerable. Better have a spare.

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Ydnam96 - Jun 15, 2005 9:31 am (#980 of 1448)

I'm not sure many people would be able to buy two new wands, as they are expensive. Maybe one new one and one second hand one...although if you are buying a second wand you could just keep your last one as your spare (I do the same with my glasses).

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mooncalf - Jun 15, 2005 9:41 am (#981 of 1448)

I'm not sure that the Longbottoms are wealthy. They do give the impression of being an old and influential (or at least self-important) family, but I've never had the impression of wealth. If they have money, why does Gran wear the same moth-eaten clothes and hat year after year?

In the muggle world it would cost a fortune to keep two family members permanently hospitalized; I wonder if it is the same for them?

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Ydnam96 - Jun 15, 2005 9:43 am (#982 of 1448)

Hmm...that does seem to be a factor. Although if we are talking about poor wizards the Weasleys are very poor and Arthur was in the hospital for quite a while. Maybe the wizarding world is more socialist in that their health care is covered (not like in the US).

Gran could be just a frugal person, even if she has money. Or perhaps she just really likes those particular clothes?

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Choices - Jun 15, 2005 9:44 am (#983 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Since they were both employed by the MOM as Aurors, perhaps the MOM pays for their hospitalization.

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Ydnam96 - Jun 15, 2005 9:48 am (#984 of 1448)

Oh, good thinking Choices, and since it was 'on the job' maybe it is considered worker's compensation. The same could be said for Arthur since he was in the ministry although not doing his 'proper' job.

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Czarina II - Jun 15, 2005 10:02 pm (#985 of 1448)

I always pictured the Longbottoms to be middle-class, at least economically. Not rich like the Malfoys, not poor like the Weasleys. Perhaps Gran just likes that one particular hat, to the point where she refuses to mend it or get a new one? I don't think that detail is particularly important.

I also have the funniest feeling that the hospital in the wizarding world acts nothing like the bureaucratic institution we have in the muggle world. While I'm sure care is not free, I don't think we can really compare. The Longbottoms probably have to pay for something, but I doubt they're sinking their life savings and more into Frank and Alice's care.

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frogface - Jun 16, 2005 12:36 am (#986 of 1448)

It depends where you live. Over here in England, things like health insurance etc works quite differently to in America.

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Ms Amanda - Jun 16, 2005 3:46 am (#987 of 1448)

Ok, I was just checking out the Lexicon's character entry on Snape, and followed the link on there about the English village, Snape.

The Nevilles owned Snape Castle?

Could a history person out there tell me more about the signifcance of the Neville family?

I'd think there is a connection since JKR obviously knows about the place.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 16, 2005 6:03 am (#988 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
All I know about that, Ms. Amanda, is that Catherine lived there before she married Henry VIII. If it has any bearing to the Snape in JKR's story, I can't see how he'd have a very good outcome. Here's a link:

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Ms Amanda - Jun 17, 2005 3:52 am (#989 of 1448)

Yes, thank you, that's the link I followed on the Lex.

I thought that during one of those times when the English crown was being contested, the castle or the family played a historical role. I'm just not very familiar with what all was going on.

I thought there might be some speculation room regarding that and the quote from JKR about Neville nearly being King. As far as Snape goes, maybe there's speculation room regarding that and why he treats Neville badly?

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haymoni - Jun 20, 2005 3:58 pm (#990 of 1448)

I figured Gran had lived through the Depression and was "careful" with money - why go out and buy a new one for Neville when Frank's wasn't being used?

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 24, 2005 1:37 pm (#991 of 1448)

I think part of the reason Snape treats Neville so badly is because his parents were in the Order. They were very popular. He also has very little liking for people in Gryffindor LPO

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vball man - Jun 25, 2005 6:34 pm (#992 of 1448)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
LPO, maybe this belongs in the Snape thread, but I suspect that the reason Snape treats people badly that it is a show for Draco. (Snape does hate the marauders, though.)

I think that a good death either will hate Neville. So Snape does - and did. Snape has always known that he'd have to go back to Voldemort as a spy someday. If Malfoy thinks that he was friends with Dumbledore and Harry, then it will be hard to fake Voldemort allegiance.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 26, 2005 1:43 pm (#993 of 1448)

I agree Vball man. Neville is not as slow as Crabbe and Goyle. Snape does not seem to spend time telling them how stupid they are. He favors the sons of the Death Eaters. Neville and Harry have proven themselves against the Death Eaters. Snape continues to favor and protect Malfoy. I wonder if hating Harry will drive him back to Voldemort? LPO

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Snuffles - Jul 30, 2005 11:01 am (#994 of 1448)

Olivia
Happy Birthday Neville.
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barbara webb - Jul 30, 2005 11:04 am (#995 of 1448)

Happy Birthday Neville

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Aqualu Nifey - Jul 30, 2005 2:16 pm (#996 of 1448)

"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." - Padme Amidala-Skywalker
Happy Birthday Neville!

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Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2005 6:44 pm (#997 of 1448)

Librarian
McGonagall tells Neville that she will speak with his grandmother about Charms NEWTS. She made a comment about Gran's grade on her OWL. At first I figured that McGonagall had taught the senior Longbottom. That didn't seem right so I figure that they must have been at Hogwarts together.

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Susurro Notities - Aug 4, 2005 6:52 pm (#998 of 1448)

Oh I like that idea Steve Newton. I don't know what to do with it but I like it!

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Marie E. - Aug 4, 2005 8:55 pm (#999 of 1448)

I think it makes sense, Steve. They are the right age to have known each other in school. *has a frightening thought of Gran and Minerva playing Quidditch for the Gryffindor team*

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Steve Newton - Aug 5, 2005 5:04 am (#1000 of 1448)

Librarian
God help the opposing beaters!

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 5, 2005 12:08 pm (#1001 of 1448)
LOL Marie E. They would make a formidable pair. I missed Neville in this book. I'm glad Harry sees him as a true friend now. LPO

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Verbina - Aug 5, 2005 12:24 pm (#1002 of 1448)

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Well let's see....McGonagall would have been 18 when the Chamber was opened in 1943 - it could be that they were in school together or at least at the same time.

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Dr Filibuster - Aug 6, 2005 12:16 am (#1003 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
I was under the impression that Nev's gran would be older than Minerva.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2005 8:19 am (#1004 of 1448)

Dr. F, I would assert that if Augusta Longbottom were not in school with Minerva, that it would be less likely that Minerva would be aware of Augusta's failed O.W.L.
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Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 10:34 am (#1005 of 1448)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ah yes, but it could just be "one of those things" that you know. For example, I know that my friend's sister passed in honors her math and science final exam, but she nearly failed her language final. Obviously, the McGonagall would be friends with the Longbottom family and it would not be unusual if she found things like that out.

Edit: Also, she might have access to records of grades from previous years, and this is just one thing she came across while looking for something else. Hmm… do I sense blackmail??

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Hogs Head - Aug 8, 2005 2:57 pm (#1006 of 1448)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Book 6. Not much to-do about a new wand. Disappointed?

And Book 6 contains only a little material, but not too much on the whole, for Neville himself. Puzzled?

So, what are the predictions -- more to come for Neville in Book 7 or is his role just about finished till the epilogue (if there is one)?

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Herm oh ninny - Aug 8, 2005 3:23 pm (#1007 of 1448)

"Accio treats!"
I think both Neville and Luna will play big parts in book seven. That is why they were the only members who fought with Harry, Ron, Ginny,and Hermione at the ministry and the only ones who responded to Hermione's call at the end of HBP.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 8, 2005 4:06 pm (#1008 of 1448)

I was curious if Snape would be as nasty to Neville in DADA as he was to him in Potions, but I don't remember Snape interacting with Neville at all. Or did I just miss it?

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Zinovia - Aug 8, 2005 4:45 pm (#1009 of 1448)

Legal Secretary: Snape's Lawyer
lol, do you think they had like nicknames? would neville come home one day to find his gran and mcgonagall having tea?

"hey nervie! remember the time you hit that bludger at flitterwicks?"

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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 10, 2005 7:56 am (#1010 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
JKR was setting up in this book. It seems as though, whatever happens in 7, Neville will be there. There is still time for him to teach Bellatrix a few manners, albeit, the book may well be 1000+ pages.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 10, 2005 8:58 am (#1011 of 1448)

I was glad to see an adult (besides faux-Moody) at Hogwarts take a real interest in Neville and give him a reason to be proud of himself.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 10, 2005 7:45 pm (#1012 of 1448)

LOL Zinovia Flitterwicks.

Professor Sprout takes an interest in Neville. Herbology is his best subject. LPO

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Dr Filibuster - Aug 12, 2005 12:53 pm (#1013 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Lupin was great with Neville. Of course, Nevs parents were fellow Order members.

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Dedalus Diggle - Aug 13, 2005 10:10 am (#1014 of 1448)

I was curious if Snape would be as nasty to Neville in DADA as he was to him in Potions, but I don't remember Snape interacting with Neville at all. Or did I just miss it?


Does Neville do DADA now?

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2005 10:29 am (#1015 of 1448)

I don't remember Professor Sprout ever sitting down with Neville and offering support or building his self-confidence outside of class.

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Saralinda Again - Aug 13, 2005 5:49 pm (#1016 of 1448)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
But we see everything through Harry's eyes, and poor Harry has had enough on his plate without checking to ensure that his classmates are getting emotional support.

Especially before he began to understand Neville (GoF) and began to empathize with and value him (OotP).

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 15, 2005 5:34 am (#1017 of 1448)

Does Neville do DADA now?

Yes, it was one of the classes McGonagall okayed for him. He partnered Hermione on the first day they were learning nonverbal spells.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 15, 2005 8:11 am (#1018 of 1448)

In OoP when Harry meets Neville on the train back to school Neville has his Mimbulus mimbletonia he states he can't wait to show it to Professor Sprout (OoP 186 USA hardback). I took that to mean he does have a good supportive relationship with her. LPO

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Zinovia - Aug 19, 2005 6:27 pm (#1019 of 1448)

Legal Secretary: Snape's Lawyer
also, if you remember, (and I think it was moody) who told neville that sprout told him that neville was very good at herbology. Plus if he's comfortable enough to happily bring sprout new plants and such, I'd think they have a decent relationship.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 20, 2005 10:28 am (#1020 of 1448)

I hope so! I feel more and more sorry for Neville as the books go along. Imagine being brought up to "know" you're not in any way the equal of your dad.

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Ydnam96 - Aug 26, 2005 6:17 pm (#1021 of 1448)

M A G., true, he does have a sad story. Very similar to Harry and Voldemort's actually if you think about it.

But Neville is coming into his own. He's gonna be a force to be reckoned with!!

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Berty Bott - Sep 21, 2005 8:24 am (#1022 of 1448)

I think there is a connection with the Longbottoms being insane and Neville forgetting things a lot. I think he was there when they were tortured and someone put a memory charm on him so he would forget. So now he has a memory issue similar to Bertha's.

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Steve Newton - Sep 21, 2005 8:28 am (#1023 of 1448)

Librarian
I don't know. If Neville had been there I think that the torturers would have tortured Neville to make the parents talk.

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M A Grimmett - Sep 21, 2005 9:37 am (#1024 of 1448)

Any way you look at it, if Neville was present at the torturing of his parents, that's sick. I'd love there to be a reason for his forgetfulness, though. I think he's due for some really good things to happen to him.

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The giant squid - Sep 22, 2005 12:51 am (#1025 of 1448)

If Neville had been there I think that the torturers would have tortured Neville to make the parents talk.--Steve Newton

That could be an acceptable cause for traumatic amnesia & other memory-related problems as well.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2005 9:01 am (#1026 of 1448)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
I agree, Berty Bott, that Fudge (or someone of the like) modified Neville's memory so he wouldn't remember the torture scene.

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 21, 2005 2:40 pm (#1027 of 1448)

Let's assume for a moment Neville's memory was indeed altered. Do you think it might be undone somehow, and there is anything crucial to the plot he might remember? What could this be?

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M A Grimmett - Oct 22, 2005 2:31 pm (#1028 of 1448)

If it had happened earlier in the series, I think Neville would have unravelled. But he's gotten a lot more sure of himself, and I think he'd be able to deal with it.

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Verbina - Oct 24, 2005 8:16 pm (#1029 of 1448)

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Didn't Neville have a reaction to Moody (aka Crouch) showing the students the unforgiveable curses? And it wasn't even aimed at him. Almost as if it was making him remember something that he didn't want to or couldn't due to a memory block.

Tell me if I am wrong on this one. I am trying to go from memory here.

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The giant squid - Oct 24, 2005 10:46 pm (#1030 of 1448)

Verbina, when Moody showed the class the Cruciatus curse Neville had a reaction. He was supposedly remembering his parents' screams when the LeStranges tortured them.

--Mike

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Honour - Oct 24, 2005 10:56 pm (#1031 of 1448)

"He was supposedly remembering his parents' screams when the LeStranges tortured them - The Giant Squid - Mike

So Neville was present when his parents were being tortured?

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frogface - Oct 25, 2005 12:04 am (#1032 of 1448)

I always assumed he was just upset because he knew that what he was seeing was the curse responsible for his parents being the way they are. After all, Harry also felt a bit shaken after he had seen that AK.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 25, 2005 9:13 am (#1033 of 1448)

(empty post - Elanor)

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Steve Newton - Oct 25, 2005 5:01 am (#1034 of 1448)

Librarian
I don't recall any mention in the books of Neville was remembering when his parents were tortured. To me it seemed as if he was reacting to his knowledge that this was how his parents were tortured.

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The giant squid - Oct 25, 2005 1:49 pm (#1035 of 1448)

Okay, I actually looked it up (odd, I know ). Neville's parents aren't mentioned at all (I don't think we learn about them until later) but the hindsight of us readers figures that's where he knows the curse from. Whether he was present or not is still debated her on the Forum.

GoF, American edition, pp. 213-215...Moody asks if the class knows of any Unforgivable curses, Neville suggests the Cruciatus Curse. Moody then performs it on an enlarged spider.

"'Stop it!' Hermione said shrilly.

Harry looked around at her. She was looking, not at the spider, but at Neville, and Harry, following her gaze, saw that Neville's hands were clenched upon the desk in front of him, his knuckles white, his eyes wide and horrified."

Wow, that's a real run-on of a sentence...

--Mike

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Verbina - Oct 25, 2005 6:41 pm (#1036 of 1448)

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So...however he knew, Neville knew that his parents had been tortured with the Cruciatus Curse. Hmmmm...he could have been told that fact or he may have been there.

Neville would have been a year old at the time and it would be possible for him to be present without Bella and company knowing. It is also possibel that his parents hid him from Bella and Co. so they couldn't find him even if they wanted to.

They were tortured to find out where Voldemort was...right? They thought the Longbottoms may know. So...they didn't go to get Neville but to get inoformation. So if Neville seemed to not be there, would they have cared or noticed?

Just playing devils advocate here.

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 26, 2005 12:27 pm (#1037 of 1448)

---quote--- Hmmmm...he could have been told that fact or he may have been there. ---end quote---

I think Augusta would have at least told him. She would have wanted him to know what his parents went through and what they sacrificed as Aurors.

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Chemyst - Oct 26, 2005 5:19 pm (#1038 of 1448)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Whether or not Neville was there, he'd have been only 15 months old. It is a fairly safe assumption that his Gran would have told him the full story before sending him off to Hogwarts. She would not have wanted him to hear it first from a Draco-type.

Harry had a tougher time because his schoolmates knew more about parts of his history that he did. I don't think Gran would have let that happen to Neville; she would want to take that responsibility to let him see the heroic side of his parents.

Also, he'd been making trips to St. Mungos to see his parents, so he'd have been asking questions all along as he was growing up.

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The giant squid - Oct 26, 2005 11:17 pm (#1039 of 1448)

It is a fairly safe assumption that his Gran would have told him the full story before sending him off to Hogwarts. She would not have wanted him to hear it first from a Draco-type.

Plus she would have wanted Neville to know the great sacrifice his sainted father made...

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 27, 2005 12:11 pm (#1040 of 1448)

Also, it was Neville, who first mentioned the Cruciatus Curse after Moody asked. Since it was stated, that this was very unusual for him, I think it means that he knew about the curse.

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Verbina - Oct 28, 2005 10:37 am (#1041 of 1448)

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Hmmm so it sounds more and more that Neville was told all about what had happened. But that leads to another question...at the trial for the attack on the Longbottoms...who testified as to what had happened? Was someone there? It may not have been Neville but I am curious how they knew what had happened to the Longbottoms.

It also brings up the question of if Neville wasn't there at the time of the attack...where was he?

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 28, 2005 10:42 am (#1042 of 1448)

Edited by Oct 28, 2005 11:43 am
---quote--- ...who testified as to what had happened? Was someone there? It may not have been Neville but I am curious how they knew what had happened to the Longbottoms. ---end quote---

I always assumed that they were caught in the process/escaping, so the capturing Aurors would have been able to testify. Once they were captured, at least Bellatrix would have had no qualms about shouting out everything they did in full detail.

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Soul Search - Oct 29, 2005 4:38 am (#1043 of 1448)

My read has been that after the prophecy was made both boys went into hiding. Harry went into hiding with his parents at Godric's Hollow. The Longbottoms, however, were Aurors and in the Order, so they were needed in the fight against Voldemort, so Neville went into hiding with his Gran. He is still with her.

Thus, Neville wouldn't have been around when Bellatrix etal caught the Longbottoms.

I also thought the "looking for Voldemort" excuse for Crucioing the Longbottoms a bit weak. Why would they know anything? Were they at Godric's Hollow?

It makes more sense that Voldemort wanted to find both boys that met the prophecy. Why take chances? He got to Harry first, because Wormtail betrayed the Potters, but Death Eaters were, not knowing for sure that Voldemort was gone, still looking for Neville.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 29, 2005 4:51 am (#1044 of 1448)

Death Eaters were, not knowing for sure that Voldemort was gone, still looking for Neville. --Soul Search

That makes a lot of sense. But I have a vague memory of Rowling saying something in an interview about the attack on Neville's parents not having to do with the Prophecy. Of course, my memory could be wrong. That Frank and Alice would still take measures to assure their sons safety does make sense though.

Were they at Godric's Hollow?

Now, there's a thought! As Aurors, they could have been part of the Ministry investigation in the aftermath of Godric's Hollow. As members of the Order and skilled Aurors, they could have been attempting to track down Vapermort's whereabouts for the Order. That would make them prime targets if the DEs were looking for information.

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Troels Forchhammer - Oct 29, 2005 7:58 am (#1045 of 1448)

It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing. - Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Mrs Brisbee wrote on Oct 29, 2005 in message #1042

But I have a vague memory of Rowling saying something in an interview about the attack on Neville's parents not having to do with the Prophecy. Of course, my memory could be wrong.
She did, on her web-site.
The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him
No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.
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Regards,
Troels

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Honour - Oct 29, 2005 1:41 pm (#1046 of 1448)

But the Longbottoms were?

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Dr Filibuster - Oct 29, 2005 3:05 pm (#1047 of 1448)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
I hope they were, after all, the prophesy could have been about Neville.

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Soul Search - Oct 29, 2005 3:33 pm (#1048 of 1448)

Couple of things.

The Longbottoms also "defied the Dark Lord Three Times." Sufficient reason for DEs to go after them.

Voldemort would not have wanted DEs to know about the prophecy. After all, even the first part, more or less, predicts his demise. Voldemort would have tasked DEs to find or kidnap, but not tell anyone why.

Voldemort could have identified all boys that met the prophecy. He had people undercover in the ministry, if nothing else.

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Elanor - Oct 29, 2005 11:00 pm (#1049 of 1448)

Soul Search: "Voldemort would not have wanted DEs to know about the prophecy. After all, even the first part, more or less, predicts his demise."

Indeed! Which makes me think that Snape was really lucky to still be alive after saying that to Voldemort, though lucky is certainly not the appropriate word here. IMO, there is no doubt Voldemort thought of killing him, so that no-one else would know about the prophecy. The fact that Snape still lived afterwards certainly proves that Voldemort still needed more a living Snape than a dead one and that Snape was clever enough to make him realise that...

I hope Neville's parents knew about the prophecy too, it would be logical, but did Grandma know as well? I doubt it more, don't you?

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Soul Search - Oct 30, 2005 5:52 am (#1050 of 1448)

Elanor, good point about Snape knowing the prophecy and Voldemort not wanting anyone to know it predicted his demise. Since Snape is still alive, it suggests some special relationship between Snape and Voldemort. Wonder what?

Neville's Gran had to know a little, but probably not the wording. Certainly not the "whole" prophecy. I think if Neville's Gran knew the details of the prophecy, she might have expressed a better opinion of Neville. On the other hand, maybe she is disappointed that Neville wasn't the boy in the prophecy and that's why she puts him down at every opportunity.

I still think, in the end, Neville will impress the heck out of his Gran.

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 1051 to 1100)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:34 am

ex-FAHgeek - Oct 30, 2005 5:52 am (#1051 of 1448)
---quote--- I hope Neville's parents knew about the prophecy too, it would be logical, but did Grandma know as well? I doubt it more, don't you? ---end quote---

Yes, she seems like the sort of person who would want Neville to know how important any of her family members were in the battle against darkness... even if she doesn't realize that "almost" being important will probably help his self-esteem even less.

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M A Grimmett - Nov 3, 2005 11:02 am (#1052 of 1448)

I don't get the feeling that Neville's emotional well-being is something his Gran spends a lot of time thinking about.

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Verbina - Nov 3, 2005 10:44 pm (#1053 of 1448)

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Have to agree with you there. Constantly measuring him against his mother and father...sad really. To be measured like that may be her way of trying to make Neville stronger but... I don't think it is working all that well.

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frogface - Nov 4, 2005 2:02 pm (#1054 of 1448)

Yeah, it makes me quite angry with her really. Doesn't he have it hard enough as it is? On the other hand I also know she means well, and it must be really terrible to have that happen to her son. I think comparing Neville to his parents is a way for her to express her grief over Frank.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 7, 2005 8:37 am (#1055 of 1448)

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I haven't read this entire thread yet, but a few thoughts occur to me.

Some have posted that Neville could not have witnessed his parents's torture because he would have been sent to live with his grandmother due to the fact that the Longbottoms were Aurors and members of the Order and would be far too busy hunting Vold.

In GoF, DD says to Harry about Neville "his father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard." (in pensieve memory of Lestrange/Crouch trial)

So, my point is that since his mother was a member of the Order but not an Auror, he would likely have been with his parents at the time of their torture. It would explain Neville's reaction during and after Moody's demonstration of Crucio. It would also explain Neville's terrible memory as it would be likely that the DE's would alter his memory so Order wouldn't be able to identify them via occlumense or related magic.

Are there any quotes saying both parents were Aurors?

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Steve Newton - Nov 7, 2005 8:43 am (#1056 of 1448)

Librarian
meams813, that is not my objection to Neville being present. I think that if he had been there then he would have been tortured to make his parents talk. You might be able to make a case that this is what happened and it caused his parents insanity, and, the memory charms used to make Neville forget are what makes him clumsy and forgetful. I haven't seen that case made yet.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 7, 2005 12:27 pm (#1057 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them. I - yes, Alice dear, what is it?" OoP pp 514 Scholastic paperback.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 8, 2005 4:41 pm (#1058 of 1448)

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Thanks, Twinkling. So, why didn't DD say "his parents were aurors"? Is Gran getting senile mixing auror for Order, or perhaps stretching the truth?

Anyway, it doesn't matter because it specifically says that the DE's tortured the Longbottoms "after Vold's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe."

So baby Neville would certainly have been home with his parents.

Steve Newton - I see your point and yes you guessed it I would say that Neville could also have been tortured. It may well be that Neville's constitution held up better than his parents's against the torture inflicted on them. After all, he is one of the prophesized children and I have no doubt he is extraordinary in his own way.

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RoseMorninStar - Nov 8, 2005 10:23 pm (#1059 of 1448)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I am not so sure either Harry or Neville is 'special' in and of themselves (other than the fact that every one is 'special' in their own way)-at least that is what JKR implies. Voldemort chose Harry, and that is what made Harry special. If Voldemort had never been aware of the prophecy at all..he probably would not have gone after Harry (or Neville, had he chosen him). Voldemort chose to make the propehcy come to pass by taking the actions he did. By attacking Harry, and the things that subsequently took place, Voldemort made Harry special. He passed on special powers. Harry's mother Lily passed on special protection (unintentionally).

The book never says if the Longbottoms were attacked at home or if they were 'out in the line of duty', both being Aurors. I do find it interesting that Neville has a severe 'remembering' problem and wonder if anything will ever come of it.

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frogface - Nov 9, 2005 12:09 am (#1060 of 1448)

"So baby Neville would certainly have been home with his parents."

I can't say I agree with that at all. Dumbledore was still very much aware there was a danger for Harry from all the Death Eaters still not caught who would be looking for Voldemort and revenge. If he expected Harry might be in danger then I can't see why he wouldn't take precautions for Neville to. I simply think the fact that Neville is clumsy and forgetful stems from insecurities and lack of confidence. Its not surprising really, given his past and his grandmother telling him he's not as good as his father was.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 9, 2005 8:38 am (#1061 of 1448)

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frogface -- yes but the quote in my above post "after Vold's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe" is out of DD's mouth. The passage in GoF at end of The Pensieve chapter seems clear. To me anyway.

Rose MorninStar -- yes I absolutely agree that Harry is not "special" and I should have not used "extraordinary". I should have said "brave" or something. I was trying to illustrate that Neville is not backwards or inept, or if he is at this point it's due to memory alteration and/or trauma as a baby. Gran doesn't help either.

As we've been told that Lockhart is regaining his memory, I believe the same will be said of Neville and with the support of Harry, Ron, Hermione & Luna he will rise up out of his "fog" in book 7 to be heroic in his own unique way. He's already done so in spurts, but I see him stepping forward big time in book 7, proving what you've said and I agree with-- that it's not about who Vold chose in prophecy, etc.

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frogface - Nov 9, 2005 9:41 am (#1062 of 1448)

Yes but theres such a thing as a generalisation isn't there. Dumbledore says everyone, yet he himself doesn't believe everyone is safe. I think THAT is quite clear.

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frogface - Nov 10, 2005 12:14 am (#1063 of 1448)

Sorry I got a bit short with you there. I want to elaborate on what I said so that its clear. While a lot of people may have thought that things were finally safe, Dumbledore did not. After Voldemort's downfall he took steps to ensure Harry was safe. Even if by this point Harry had been marked and was almost certainly 'The One', I don't think Dumbledore would forego making sure Neville was safe too. And seeing as a bunch of Death Eaters managed to find Frank and Alice, that suggests - to me at least - that Neville was hidden without them being with him. (Maybe as Auror's they were needed to round-up death eaters and were too valuable to stay in hiding).

All I'm trying to say is that Voldemorts downfall doesn't really constitute as evidence for either Neville being present at the attack on his parents or not being there.

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LooneyLuna - Nov 11, 2005 6:23 pm (#1064 of 1448)

You know, I think Dumbledore assumed Neville would be safe, since Voldemort had gone after Harry and marked him instead of Neville. Dumbledore made sure extra protection was around Harry, but maybe not for Neville. One of Dumbledore's mistakes, perhaps?

I have no problem believing that if Neville was present while his parents were tortured, the DEs would have had no problem torturing him as well before they tortured the parents. Bella would have gloated about it in the DoM. "Longbottom, eh? I tortured you as a baby and now I get to do it again!" YaY! Doesn't she say instead, "Another Longbottom?" or something along those lines?

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 12, 2005 12:02 am (#1065 of 1448)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
" Bella would have gloated about it in the DoM."

Maybe LV didn't tell his DE's there were two possible ones, like he tried to keep his DE's from knowing most of their fellows? Maybe Bella's demented mind just wishes she was in LV's confidence? This possible the DE's not only singled out the Longbottoms because they were Aurors, but because they were known Order members and they thought since Voldemort became Vapormort after the encounter with the Potters that they knew nothing that Neville might be the other? Seems to me if they had any clue about the Prophecy then they would have seeked to destroy Neville for that reason, not because his parents might know LV's whereabouts.

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Puck - Nov 12, 2005 9:09 am (#1066 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I doubt that the DE knew about the prophecy and thus wouldn't have reason to harm baby Neville. However, if he was there, they might have tried to tortoure him to get the parents to talk. Though, this might go back to the whole power of love thing. Would it have dawn on them that Alice and Frank would be willing to suffer themselves, but could not manage to watch their child in pain.

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LooneyLuna - Nov 12, 2005 11:28 am (#1067 of 1448)

I know that the DEs did not know about the prophecy. The DEs went after the Longbottoms because they might know were Voldemort/Vapormort's whereabouts. I do not think Neville was present because the DEs would have tortured him first to get his parents to talk. Again, I think Bella would have gloated to Neville in the DoM that she tortured him as a baby. Instead, she gloats about torturing his parents.

New thoought: If Neville was present, he was well hidden. He might have heard his parent's screams and/or watched the whole thing, but was unable to do/say anything (petrificus totalis under an invisability cloak?).

Dumbledore knew the whole prophecy, he knew which boys it concerned. Dumbledore assumed that the DEs would go after Harry, because Voldemort went after Harry, which is why the extra protection at Privet Drive. I'm saying that Dumbledore assumed Neville would be safe. Voldemort had already chosen Harry, which was public knowledge.

Perhaps Dumbledore didn't realize how desperate the DEs would be to find their Master and didn't consider the safety of Frank and Alice. Or Frank and Alice refused extra protection, because they thought Voldemort's reign was over and as Aurors, they felt they didn't need it.

Toddles off to St. Mungos. Is it tea time yet?

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 12, 2005 1:14 pm (#1068 of 1448)

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Twinkling, good points made.

I'd also like to alter my statement in a previous post above. Although we know that Harry is not necessarily "extraordinary" because Vold is fulfilling the prophecy by his own actions, it is true that Harry is pointed out as being extraordinary by DD. He tells Harry in CoS that very few wizards would have looked in the Mirror of Erised in the Chamber and not seen their own "selfish" desire. DD has pointed this uniqueness out in Harry in other scenes as well. So although Neville may indeed be capable of the same drive to finish Vold, right now it is Harry that DD says is unique in that way.

I do feel that Neville will continue to be crucial to Harry's success, of course as well as many others, but Neville I think will have his finest hour in book 7.

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frogface - Nov 13, 2005 3:08 am (#1069 of 1448)

Looney Luna - "I'm saying that Dumbledore assumed Neville would be safe. Voldemort had already chosen Harry, which was public knowledge."

Thats a big assumption to make when you're risking someone's life though isn't it? I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one because I can't see Dumbledore doing that. Moreover I can't see how he would have lasted 5 minutes in a war against Voldemort if he made foolish assumptions like that over big risks.

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LooneyLuna - Nov 13, 2005 6:55 am (#1070 of 1448)

"Thats a big assumption to make when you're risking someone's life though isn't it? I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one because I can't see Dumbledore doing that. Moreover I can't see how he would have lasted 5 minutes in a war against Voldemort if he made foolish assumptions like that over big risks." Frogface

My apologies for expressing myself poorly.

It's not a big assumption for Dumbledore to make. I'm saying that in Dumbledore's mind, he didn't need to worry about Neville anymore because Voldemort had made his choice in Harry. The public knowledge was that Voldemort met his downfall at the Potter's house and confronting Harry. As far as we know, the general public had no knowledge of Neville's involvement in the prophecy - hence no need for extra security after Voldemort's downfall for Neville.

I don't view that Dumbledore thought he was risking Neville's life by not putting extra protection around him. There was simply no need. The attack on the Longbottoms didn't have anything to do with the attack on the Potters. These events are mutually exclusive.

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Pinky Prime - Nov 13, 2005 9:52 am (#1071 of 1448)

After the MoM showdown with LV in DD’s office, DD said something about protecting Harry at the expense of others “I cared… more for your life than the lives of others if the plan failed…

DD self-admittedly watched Harry more closely than he could imagine. Was that a mistake? Meaning he had to remember the prophecy interpretation of two possible families when the Longbottoms died.

THE PLAN

I think DD anticipating LV’s interpretation of the prophecy if he ever returned to power was DD's plan, not anticipating the DE's revenge on the Longbottoms. I agree the DE's didn't know LV's possible plan because they didn't know about the prophecy or the whereabouts of LV either. DD still chose Harry’s happiness over his guilt involving Neville and his parents, who were tortured into madness. If he ever cared to share that information with the Longbottoms about the prophecy would they be in St. Mungos today? Seems to me that it was dangerous to share and not to share that information.

“What did I care if numbers of nameless faces and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if for the here and now you were alive and well and happy?

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Puck - Nov 14, 2005 9:39 am (#1072 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think that DD was talking the time AFTER Harry came to Hogwarts, that he waited too long to tell him the whole truth in order to protect Harry's happiness. I doubt it has anything to do with putting -or not- the Longbottoms into hiding.

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Verbina - Nov 14, 2005 9:29 pm (#1073 of 1448)

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Actually, considering his parents were tortured, would Neville have had a bad reaction to perhaps being one of those that found his parents? He would have been just over a year old at the time. Plus, we only have seen the Longbottoms years later. We simply do not know what physical harm may have been done to them in the torture. Finding someones parents like that would be a shock and it may have been decided to be best to try to eliminate the memory for his own well being. Perhaps by a doctor or even maybe by Gran herself.

And there is also the chance that Bella and company didn't know that there was a child. I get the feeling that very few, if any of the DEs knew about the prophecy. LV probably sent the DEs out to try to find the Longbottoms and the Potters citing revenge on them for avoiding him. The DEs ould have accepted this as LV is strong on revenge. Once LV disappeared, the DEs scattered and tried to hide their dealings with Voldemort. After all, they were trying to save their own skins from winding up in prison. Without LV they simply ran off and tried to be invisible. Bella though, she is different to say the least. She decided that the Longbottoms, one of the families that LV was looking for, knew what had happened to him. And if she knew nothing about the prophecy, then she may not have known there was a child.

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Honour - Nov 14, 2005 9:54 pm (#1074 of 1448)

I'm not even 100% sure if indeed Bella and her crew knew that the Longbottoms were in Voldermorts sights. I think that the Longbottoms were known Aurors, so during that fateful night, amongst the confusion and rumour of Voldermorts disappearance, the Longbottoms became targets because they were in the MOM employ. So, frenetic, fanatic Bella just out to find out what had happened to her 'beloved' Dark Lord, systematically started working/crucio-ing her way through known Aurors, Order members etc....

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 20, 2005 11:30 pm (#1075 of 1448)

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It may not be the right place to discuss the film, but I noticed in GoF movie that in Pensieve trial scene, Karkaroff says "the auror Frank Longbottom and his wife" rather than the "aurors".

I also wonder about Neville's reaction to the Cruciatus in the film. Is his memory going to return about watching and/or being tortured?

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frogface - Nov 21, 2005 12:15 am (#1076 of 1448)

We don't usually consider the films as canon mams813 as JKR doesn't usually even see them until the premier. I'm still pretty sure they were both auror's as Dumbledore says it himself. If you want to discuss this aspect further though the GoF movie thread would also be a good place.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 21, 2005 8:41 am (#1077 of 1448)

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Thanks, frogface. No, I don't particularly want to discuss it in depth. But I have read on other threads that JKR is closely involved with certain scenes during filming...

DD didn't say they were both aurors, Neville's grandmother did. DD said Frank was an auror, not "his wife". I can't recall canon, but it's posted a few posts back. I'll try to find it...

So I'm still unsure about who is right and who is wrong. But it's not a huge deal.

EDIT: here are the two different quotes...

In GoF, DD says to Harry about Neville: "his father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard." (in pensieve memory of Lestrange/Crouch trial)


In OoP Gran Longbottom's quote: "They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them. I - yes, Alice dear, what is it?"

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Finn BV - Nov 21, 2005 7:16 pm (#1078 of 1448)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Hmm, maybe Augusta is particularly proud of her son and feels like including her daughter-in-law, or DD is wrong?? (That last option sounds not very plausible.) Hmm, could just be a form of colloquial speech, though I always thought DD was correct, Frank's the only Auror, Alice was tortured because she knew information about her husband's work but was unwilling to give it up. In fact, I want to say that's canon but I'm not sure where…

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Chemyst - Nov 22, 2005 4:49 pm (#1079 of 1448)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The Lexicon's class timeline doesn't give years that Neville's parents would have been at Hogwarts. We know that Tonks' auror training took another three full years after leaving Hogwarts. It is possible that Frank was a bit older than Alice and had completely finished his training and been an auror for awhile. Alice may have had her training interrupted with maternity leave... I see this as a highly likely possibility and it explains both DD's and Granny Augusta's statements. Maybe Alice was a rookie auror and not fully certified???? It did not stop her from defying Voldemort.

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Berty Bott - Nov 23, 2005 6:26 am (#1080 of 1448)

I re-read the part of GOF where Moody shows the kids the unforgivable curses. Notice the difference in the reactions of Neville and Harry. They both had parents that were taken from them because of these curses yet Neville has a much more extreme reaction to seeing them than Harry. Harry is upset, unconfortable and certainly thinks about his parents in that situation. Neville is severely traumatized. He pretty much loses it completely. Even the kids show more concern for Neville than Harry, because it is clearly effecting him on a whole other level.

This is why I think Neville must have witnessed something that he doesnt remember, or he was tortured too, because otherwise you would expect his reaction to be similar to Harry's.

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Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2005 6:32 am (#1081 of 1448)

Librarian
Berty, I sort of agree but also remember that Neville has living reminders of his experience and, so far, Harry only has remote memories of his parents.

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haymoni - Nov 23, 2005 6:48 am (#1082 of 1448)

I thought the complete opposite - for the first time, Neville was actually seeing what actually happened to his parents and what they went through.

He probably imagined all sorts of things, but until that moment, he didn't realize how awful it was.

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Finn BV - Nov 23, 2005 8:12 am (#1083 of 1448)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Chemyst, that's an interesting explanation.

I agree with Haymoni. When I read it, I figured Neville now knew what his parents had gone through. Never in his wildest dreams could he have thought that this is what had been done to them.

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Verbina - Nov 23, 2005 9:45 pm (#1084 of 1448)

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One has to admit however it is almost as if something that was preventing Neville from being capable in magic is no longer there. That could be that he is gainign confidence in himself obviously but...I think I may try to pinpoint when it all changed for him. For some odd reason I felt it was when Moody (aka Jr) gave him that book and talked to him. Though I can't figure out why.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 23, 2005 10:04 pm (#1085 of 1448)

Fake Moody gave him the book so that he would help Harry with the Gilly-weed. He wanted Neville to be proud that he understood something and hoped he would share it with Harry. Remember, Fake Moody was trying to get Harry a head start in the maze.

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frogface - Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am (#1086 of 1448)

The most obvious moment seems to me to be when Bellatrix and a large group of Death Eaters escape Azkaban. Harry, through the DA classes, notices how Neville displays a level of determination and focus he's never really shown before.

"...but in nobody was this improvement more pronounced than in Neville. The news of his parents' attackers' escape had wrought a strange and even slightly alarming change in him."

"...worked relentlessly on every new jinx and counter-curse Harry taught them, his plump face screwed up in concentration, apparently indifferent to injuries or accidents and working harder than anyone else in the room. He was improving so fast it was quite unnerving and when Harry taught him the Shield Charm - a means of delfecting minor jinxes so that they rebounded upon the attacker - only Hermione mastered the charm faster than Neville."

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Verbina - Nov 24, 2005 8:37 pm (#1087 of 1448)

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Ydnam96 - And that is the reason why I keep telling myself that it couldn't be the turn around point but then part fo my brain says it is. Odd I know. Unless...it was then that Neville realized that he was rally good at something. After all, Sprout did tell the fake Moody about his talent with plants. And even though Moody was fake, Sprout talking about him wasn't. That could have been a boost to his confidence.

For some reason I keep thinking it was in GOF that it happened because the old Neville would never have had the courage to ask anyone to the ball...or at least that was the feeling I got. Open to any suggestions really.

and frogface - I agree that that is when it is very obvious that Neville was changing. Personally, I was a little sad to see him fade back in HBP but cheered when he showed up when it truly mattered at the end.

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Steve Newton - Nov 25, 2005 5:19 am (#1088 of 1448)

Librarian
You mention Neville's not having the courage to ask someone to the ball. I think that from the beginning Neville has shown more courage than anyone. He is also a man of action, and has been from the first. When something needs to be done, asking someone to a ball, or stuffing it to Malfoy, or short trips to the MOM, Neville wades in.

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Mrs Brisbee - Nov 25, 2005 5:45 am (#1089 of 1448)

I agree that Neville has shown courage from the first. Like Dumbledore said in the first book, there is all kinds of courage. Neville just isn't a clone of Harry or Ron.

Neville stood up to his friends-- that's something Lupin failed to do out of fear he'd lose them.

When he was frightened in the forest he sent up red sparks-- just like he was supposed to. That's something neither Harry nor Draco managed to do when they ran into real trouble.

Neville has a good head on his shoulders. He's not brave about everything, but then neither is anyone else.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 28, 2005 7:01 pm (#1090 of 1448)

Mrs. Brisbee, those are good observations. Neville isn't reckless with his bravery which Harry can definetly be accused of. Neville chooses the moments when he needs to be brave. For instance, in the MoM when he tells Harry not to give them the Prophecy even if it meant that they would hurt him.

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Robert Dierken - Nov 29, 2005 3:55 pm (#1091 of 1448)

Neville asked Hermione to the ball. When she turned him down, he then asked Ginevra, who accepted.

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Puck - Nov 30, 2005 11:43 am (#1092 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, when Malfoy made a comment about St. Mungo's Neville did act a bit reckless. Fighting in the hall outside Snape's class with Umbride lurking around? It all depends which buttons you push. We all hve things we're not exactly rational about.

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M A Grimmett - Dec 3, 2005 11:25 am (#1093 of 1448)

Neville could use some therapy, but I agree with the posters who think that Neville started to turn it around in GOF. It seemed to me that he could finally confront some of his demons and began to see how he could do something about them. We didn't know Moody was fake when he gave the book to Neville, and I think it did him worlds of good that *two* teachers were taking an interest in him. Even when "Moody" was revealed to be Crouch Jr, the self-esteem boost wouldn't be undone. Which reminds me--did Neville ever find out about "Moody's" motives there? Actually seeing the Unforgivable Curses in action might have been a catalyst regardless of whether he was present at his parents' torture.

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Verbina - Dec 3, 2005 8:29 pm (#1094 of 1448)

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I've been thinking about that myself M A Grimmett. If Neville was there, then such an event could have stirred something in his memory. But if he wasn't there...it would have been a huge catalyst for him.

Neville was very young when his parents were attacked. He would have very dim memories of them if he recalls them at all. But he has seen them since then and has seen the damage done to them. Call it a morbid curisoity but I can easily imagine Neville wondering what exactly had happened to them and what the curse did to them. To see it with his own eyes. So when the fake Moody perfromed the curse, he actually saw what had happened to his parents. He saw the pain that they must have gone through. I am sure that during that time he was not just watching the spider but superimposing mental images of his parents over what was occuring. It would be hard not to in his situation.

If Neville did find out that Moody was fake and was actually one of those that had helped torture Neville's parents, I think it would have only steeled him more.

I can see it as a big turn around for Neville. Especially since in OotP we find out so much more about Neville. How he can see the thestrals, hie parent's mental state, his reactions to it. And of course, his determination to get better at magic to defend himself as if preparing to meet those that had tortured his parents.

Again in HBP, while we don't see him as often, what we do see of him is markedly different from the Neville in SS/PS, CoS and PoA. He is encouraged by McGonagall to continue in herbology. He comes once again when needed, undetered by the chance of danger.

Actually, I am thinking that when Crouch Jr. did that in class, he succeeded in doing what he planned yet set in motion that no one could have forseen. Neville is going to be a big plus on Harry's part I am thinking.

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Puck - Dec 5, 2005 9:39 am (#1095 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Crouch Jr. actually setting in motion his master's rise as well as his ultimate defeat -how ironic!

I doubt it would matter much if he had been present when his parent's were tortured. I mean, Harry was there when Lily died, but being too young to understand, he was not able to see threstrals. Neville's memories alone would not be that stong. I agree that witnessing the curse and getting the pat on the back soon thereafter by "Moody" was what started him down a road to greatness.

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sstabeler - Dec 7, 2005 12:53 pm (#1096 of 1448)

It was Charms that neville would have dropped. maybe a hint there?

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cindysuewho45 - Dec 29, 2005 1:16 pm (#1097 of 1448)

Hi all, yes I believe that crouch jr./ mad-eye, did help with Neville's self-esteam. I also believe now that Neville has his own wand instead of his father's, it will work much better for or with him. In some of JKR's interviews she mentions that Neville will have his day in book 7. I hope that she is talking about Neville duelling with Bella and winning. Wether that means her dieing or Neville being responsable for her going to prison. I could see this happening. cindysuewho

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frogface - Jan 2, 2006 4:44 am (#1098 of 1448)

Actually, thinking about it I think Neville began to change even earlier than that. I think that facing that Boggart and beating it in front of his classmates in PoA really put him on the path towards believing that he is worth more than he thinks.

However I don't think Neville will ever suddenly shed himself of a slight lack of self esteem. I was very like Neville when I was at school. I rarely believed in myself and I was constantly tripping up and having accidents etc. Once I found something I was good at naturally I started to change, but I still suffer from a lack of confidence even now, and I believe that I probably always will. I think JKR is someone who believes that the scars we accumulate in childhood are the deepest ones of all. Just look at Snape. Neville has suffered the loss of real parents, and has been loved, yet constantly been made to feel that he doesn't measure up. Sadly I think that is something that is going to shape him in years to come.

Not that I don't think Neville will have his day. He's already shown in OotP and HBP that when someone is needed to stand up to evil, he'll put his life on the line for his friends. He really is a hero, is our Neville

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Puck - Jan 2, 2006 8:22 pm (#1099 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
The fact that he is not very confident shows how brave he is. He's not sure he CAN do it, but he steps up and gives it his all. He will never be arrogant. How can you not love Neville?

Oh, once out of school those shy "geeky" guys are often the most successful, so I see a very bright future for our boy.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2006 1:18 pm (#1100 of 1448)

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Cindysuewho45 - I also hope that Neville gets his day with Bella, I would also like to think that Tonks who also has a bone to pick might be the one to take the decisive action aganist Bella and Neville doesn't have to commit an "unforgivable".

Mickey

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Neville Longbottom Empty Neville Longbottom II (Post 1101 to 1150)

Post  Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:35 am

dallas anderson - Jan 16, 2006 3:36 pm (#1101 of 1448)
I'm a big fan of the "could have been" Neville.

While I do believe that Harry is the "marked" one... I think there is more too it.

Here is the prophecy.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

Most assume this is an either/or situation.

We know that there are two children that meet the requirements of this prophecy. Neville and Harry. The Dark Lord chose the child "with the power he knows not" (protected by Lilly) and "marked him".

But (if one so chooses) to split the prophecy into seperate thoughts... you can find the following:

Thought one: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... "

We know this. But is it Harry or Neville? Most would agree (if the entire prophecy was based on a singular thought or statement) that this is Harry.

However, what if it wasn't based on a singular thought/statement?

Thought 2: "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ..."

My point of course... is that this gap in thinking indicated by the "..." is actually a separation of another point being made. A separate thought. A separate person.

In other words, the prophecy could very well apply to BOTH Harry and Neville concurrently.

Thought #3: and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..."

We assume this to be Harry because of (well) the mark. However, do we know that the Scar is "the mark". We assume that the power "he knows not" is Lilly's protection. But Neville himself has a special protection (falling out of the window and bouncing as a child etc.)

The assumption (of course) is that this means the ENTIRE prophecy is about Harry. However if we look at each "..." as the start of an independent thought/statement then it takes a new shape.

Separate thought 4: and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...

Now, if we assume (for the sake of argument) that thought 1 and thought 2 & 3 speak to two separate people (Harry AND Neville) then the line above could very well apply to Neville and Harry as well.

In other words, one could read the above thought as any one of the following:

A.) Voldemort must die at the hand of Harry B.) Harry must die at the hand of Harry C.) Voldemort must die at the hand of Neville D.) Neville must die at the hand of Voldemort E.) Neville must die at the hand of Harry. F.) Harry must die at the hand of Neville.

So this particular thought may be independent of either/or surviving as it relates to Voldemort. Instead, it may be suggesting that while both exist/live, NEITHER can be the one to vanquish Voldemort.

This means (if you believe this to be true)... that either one or the other need DIE by the other's hand to become the "chosen one" that has the ability to kill Voldemort.

So does Harry kill Neville? Or Vice Versa?

Thought 4: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

Why repeat it? We already know (thought #2) this phrase. There may be a need to repeat it (especially in this order) if it applies to two parties (Neville and Harry).

Two separate mentions for two separate people.

But which (if this is correct) is which?

Is Harry the chosen one that must kill Neville to be able to kill Voldemort?

Or is Neville the chosen one that must kill Harry to be able to kill Voldemort?

I am a big believer that either Harry or Neville IS a Horcrux.

Therefore, knowing (by the logic chain above) that either Neville must kill Harry or Harry must kill Neville. One or the other must purposefully (or unintentionally) kill the other.

Odds (due to the connection between LV and Harry via the scar) would presume to be on Harry as the Horcrux (complete with his father’s murder to create it). Or maybe we find that the Longbottom’s (in Harry’s trip to Godric’s Hallow) are descendents of Godric Gryfindor and Longbottom has been pegged as a Horcrux.

Choosing exactly HOW this plays out could be the “non-fate/choices” aspect to the prophecy. Voldemort “chose” to mark Harry. Just as the choice of who ultimately gains the power to defeat Voldemort lies within who kills whom (on purpose or not) between Neville and Harry.

Neville could end up (as a result) as THE biggest hero of the wizarding world… or its biggest sacrifice.

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Esther Rose - Jan 16, 2006 3:57 pm (#1102 of 1448)

JKR Squashes the Harry or Neville needing to kill one another via the prophecy theory. It is on her website under rumors.

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dallas anderson - Jan 17, 2006 9:21 am (#1103 of 1448)

Wow.

That was a whole lot of writing for nothing then Smile.

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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 7:02 pm (#1104 of 1448)

Don't you just hate it when that happens dallas? Never mind, that's part of the fun in being part of the Lexicon family, sharing, proving and having your theories debunked ... Oh well, for now, back to the drawing board Smile

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Puck - Jan 18, 2006 10:20 am (#1105 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I do feel that Neville will be somehow important. Perhaps LV will wonder if Harry is really the "one" in the prophecy and go after Neville? I mean, he didn't hear the part about "marked by the Dark Lord." He only knows born at the end of July to parents who defied him 3 times. LV could be distracted enough by Neville to allow Harry to do what he needs to do.

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dallas anderson - Jan 18, 2006 10:50 am (#1106 of 1448)

Anyone else under the assumption that Neville DID hear the prophecy?

We KNOW Harry didn't. But Neville was close enough to hear it.

IF... if he did hear it, does that give Neville the thought process that HE may be the chosen one?

Would this mean Neville may believe he has the power to destroy the dark Lord?

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Steve Newton - Jan 18, 2006 12:41 pm (#1107 of 1448)

Librarian
dallas, I do think that Neville heard the prophecy. I wouldn't want to have to prove it, though. On the train in HBP he makes it a point to say that no one heard the Prophecy. Either evidence against his having heard it or that he is not letting on. Your choice.

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Puck - Jan 18, 2006 7:11 pm (#1108 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I'm guess that he was too distracted by his tap dancing legs and the attacking DE's to listen carefully enough to hear through the noise. (I imagine the battle around him was a bit loud.)

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frogface - Jan 19, 2006 5:08 am (#1109 of 1448)

I think even if Neville had heard the prophecy and been able to work out its meaning, he would automatically assume it was about Harry, given that the prophecy record was labeled with Harry's name.

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Soul Search - Jan 19, 2006 6:36 am (#1110 of 1448)

I like the idea that Neville heard a bit of the prophecy. It seems to fit with Neville having a role in the final showdown.

Neville's character has changed ever since Bellatrix escaped from Azkaban in OotP. He has been driven.

Neville's hearing a bit of the prophecy doesn't, necessarily, mean that Neville thinks he is the "chosen one." He could just "know" that Harry is the one that has to defeat Voldemort. Neville wants Voldemort's defeat more than most and could have resolved to help Harry in any way.

Neville's grandmother also seems to have changed her opinion of him after the OotP venture. Might be indicative of something.

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Puck - Jan 19, 2006 7:35 am (#1111 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think if Neville had heard something he would have told Harry. I believe Neville would see Harry as having a right to know.

I also think Grandma's adjusted attitude has to do with the fact that Neville fought a group of DE alongside of Harry Potter, and was one of the last two standing. Neville already shown back bone when dealing with the enemy. Now, I want to see him stand up to dear old Gran!

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Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2006 9:43 am (#1112 of 1448)

Librarian
Puck, I think Neville is the sort to hold things inside. For instance, he did not tell his mates about his parents until he had been with them for over 4 years.

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Soul Search - Jan 19, 2006 10:50 am (#1113 of 1448)

Steve Newton, good point. Neville neither braggs nor complains.

I re-read the HBP scene with Slughorn on the Hogwarts Express. Sounded like Neville jumped into the conversation to make a point that no one heard the prophecy. Sounds to me like Neville was protesting too much.

On the other hand, Neville doesn't know that Harry has heard the whole prophecy. Would he, then, tell Harry what he heard or would he try to protect Harry from knowing his awful fate? I could go either way.

Puck, you may be right. Gran doesn't seem to want Neville to be anything on his own. Oh well, her time for recognizing Neville is coming in book seven.

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Esther Rose - Jan 19, 2006 11:05 am (#1114 of 1448)

Well, the prophecy could work like Felix Felicis does. If Neville believes he has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, maybe he will gain the strength to help Harry out more than we think.

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Puck - Jan 19, 2006 8:12 pm (#1115 of 1448)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Neville may not brag, complain, or talk much about his own life, but the prophecy had Harry's name on it, and thus I think Neville would be likely to share if he had heard it. I don't see Neville protecting Harry by keeping information from him, but arming him with the truth and standing beside him. JM2K

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Lily Evans - Jan 24, 2006 1:37 pm (#1116 of 1448)

These past few comments have me thinking. Why would the prophecy have Harry's name on it? When does the prophecy end up on the shelf? Once it is made? If so, then initially it shouldn't have Harry's name on it. Or does it have the power to change while on the shelf? So that when Voldemort "marked" him, his name was then put on the prophecy? Just thinking aloud I guess...

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Steve Newton - Jan 24, 2006 1:46 pm (#1117 of 1448)

Librarian
Harry's name, or is it initials, are accompanied by a '?'. I can't remember but I think that Harry's name was added after the question mark, when it seemed certain that Harry was the one. The question mark remained.

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Lily Evans - Jan 24, 2006 1:54 pm (#1118 of 1448)

Well that would make sense then. I will have to check that tonight. Thanks!!

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Neville Longbottom - Jan 28, 2006 1:47 am (#1119 of 1448)

I don't think Neville heard the prophecy, because JKR said on her website (in the "is Neville connected to the prophecy" answer), that we will see how Neville will react if he finds out about it. This sounds like something that did not happen yet.

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MichaelmasGal - Feb 7, 2006 4:31 am (#1120 of 1448)

What do you think the significance of the gum wrappers Neville's Mum continues to give him? I almost hope they are some sort of secret messages, that his Mum is coming out of her coma type condition.

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haymoni - Feb 7, 2006 6:07 am (#1121 of 1448)

Ah, the gum wrappers! There were so many theories about those.

But I believe JKR said in a chat or on her website or maybe it was the Emerson/Melissa interview that it is just a touching bit that she put in there about Neville's connection with his mother. I believe there was a story about a friend of hers whose mother was in a nursing home. She looked forward to his visits because he brought her candy. She didn't know he was her son, but he was "The Candy Man". JKR took some of that and used it for Neville.

Not as mysterious as hidden meanings in the wrappers, but certainly a very moving and touching scene.

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 10, 2006 7:06 am (#1122 of 1448)

I really liked the gum wrapper theories and I wish one of them had been true. I adore Neville anyway. He's so sweet and brave and always trying to be helpful. He's braver than he thinks, and he has to be important in the future, or I will be very sad.

I was SO disappointed he got such a small bit in HbP after coming to the forefront so strongly in OotP. I at least wanted to see him doing better in class with his own wand. We got so little class time in HbP. I also expected a group of six, after OotP, not a trio, and we really got neither in HbP, in my opinion.

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Caius Iulius - Feb 13, 2006 11:45 am (#1123 of 1448)

I am sure you will see more of Neville in the final book. He has to defeat Bellatrix after all. Send her back to Azkaban.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 16, 2006 8:07 am (#1124 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I agree Caius Julius, Neville will get his chance in Book 7, and he will shine giving Bellatrix a good what for.

Mickey

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virginiaelizabeth - Apr 17, 2006 8:31 am (#1125 of 1448)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Yes I think Neville will finally get Bellatrix in book7, but the question is how? I pretty sure that Neville is not going to beable to use an unforgivable simply because they are hard, and I doubt Neville will have the meaness inside of him to them to make it work. I think he is going to do something really brave and dangerous that will finally do her in. I really believe that Neville will shine, he was sorted into Gryfinndor, not Hufflepuff, so there is definately potential there.

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Steve Newton - Apr 17, 2006 9:33 am (#1126 of 1448)

Librarian
I think that Neville has demonstrated more than potential. He has shown incredible, maybe even reckless, bravery on many occasions. Whether it is coming to Harry's aid in the DOM or being the first to ask out someone to the ball or charging into Crabbe AND Goyle Neville has been a consistent man of decisive action.

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Chinese fireball - Apr 17, 2006 5:17 pm (#1127 of 1448)

Didn't Neville purchase a wand from Olivander before he "Disappeared." What are the implications of that? Even with the idea that it is better to have your own wand than someone else's. I just started today and hope this wasn't mentioned. With so many threads I have a lot of catching up to do?

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Choices - Apr 17, 2006 5:23 pm (#1128 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I believe Neville states that his wand was one of the last sold by Ollivander - he disappeared the next day.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 20, 2006 5:19 pm (#1129 of 1448)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't know virginiaelizabeth, if Bellatrix was to launch into one of her tirade's about Neville's parents, she might put enough anger into him so he could bring forth a good curio or two. It would be fitting punishment since that was what she used on his parents. But I wouldn't want him to do it unless there was no other way.

Mickey

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journeymom - May 20, 2006 3:46 pm (#1130 of 1448)

A conversation over at the "Predictions for Book 7" got me thinking:

Two mysteries listed from Neville's profile here at the Lexicon are why does Snape pick on Neville so much, and what might his mother's maiden name be? I wonder if it could possibly be 'Prince'? Alice and Eileen Prince, sisters... Except that Book 7 seems too late to be introducing that juicy tidbit.

But, it would be kind of cool. First assume Neville knows what his mother's maiden name is. At the end of HBP, Hermione presents to Harry her discovery about Snape's mom, her name being Eileen Prince. That was only in Harry's and Ron's presence. Perhaps in Book 7 Neville somehow overhears HRH speculating something about Eileen Prince and pipes up about his mom.

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Magic Words - May 20, 2006 4:04 pm (#1131 of 1448)

Journeymom, I posted this on the "Predictions for book 7" thread as well. My theory is that Snape picks on Neville so much because, in Snape's view, Neville is tied with the prophecy simply because Voldemort might have gone after him instead of Harry. I'm a big proponent of a Snape/Lily friendship, and I think Snape hates Harry partly because Harry survived while Lily was killed. When you consider the two boys to whom the prophecy might have referred as being in equal danger originally, it's also true that Neville survived partially (if not entirely) because Voldemort killed the Potters. Snape could resent him for this, on top of looking down on him for being clumsy, etc.- not being as worthy of living as Lily, in his view.

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Neville Longbottom - May 21, 2006 8:38 am (#1132 of 1448)

A IMO nifty theory is, that Snape, who only knows the first part of the prophecy, still thinks Neville to be a candidate and is dismayed, that he is so incapable (from Snape's point of view), because he wants the Dark Lord to be defeated, but not by James Potter's son. Therefore he put is hope in Neville and is disappointed.

Of course I think it is mostly, because Snape is a very impatient and short tempered man. But I still like the theory above very much.

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rambkowalczyk - May 21, 2006 9:51 am (#1133 of 1448)

I wonder if it could possibly be 'Prince'? Alice and Eileen Prince, sisters... journeymom

I always assumed Alice to be about the same age as Lily and Snape. If Alice and Eileen are sisters there would be a large age difference between them. But they could be cousins. If they are related surely Grandma Longbottom would know of it.

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Magic Words - May 21, 2006 9:52 am (#1134 of 1448)

Oh, that's a good spin on it too, Neville. I keep forgetting Snape only knows the first part.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 21, 2006 12:47 pm (#1135 of 1448)

I don't believe Snape only knows the first part. Trelawney never knows what she's doing when she predicts, but she knew that Snape had been there and was eavesdropping, even though it clearly says he heard part of the prophecy and was ejected from the building before he heard it completed. If that's true, how did she know he was there at all? He knows everything, I think, he just never gave it all to Voldemort. Maybe he thinks if he had it wouldnt have been the Potters who went down, but the Longbottoms? That if the Death Eaters had known there was a choice, they would have wondered why Voldemort was more afraid of a half-blood than a pure-blood?

I still think Neville will be the one who takes down Bella, though. It's karma.

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Magic Words - May 21, 2006 1:01 pm (#1136 of 1448)

I don't believe Snape heard the whole prophecy, because if he had, there would be no reason for him to keep the second half from Voldemort. Dumbledore says clearly that Snape was still a Death Eater at the time. There are a couple different ways to reconcile Dumbledore's story with Trelawney's: If Snape was listening at the door when Trelawney started the prophecy, his ensuing confrontation with the barman could have distracted him from hearing the rest. It's also possible that Snape was in the process of being shown out when Trelawney went into her trance, so he was out of earshot by the end.

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virginiaelizabeth - May 21, 2006 4:25 pm (#1137 of 1448)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Trelawney never knows what she's doing when she predicts, but she knew that Snape had been there and was eavesdropping, even though it clearly says he heard part of the prophecy and was ejected from the building before he heard it completed. If that's true, how did she know he was there at all?

That is a very good question Die Zimtzicke, I'll have to think about that one.....hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Die Zimtzicke - May 21, 2006 7:14 pm (#1138 of 1448)

If Snape was out of Trelawney's earhot, then how does she know that he was there and exactly what happened? What purpose would it serve for Dumbledore to tell her? Why would Aberforth? Yet, she knows.

This is dreadfully off topic, though.

I was trying to connect Neville and Harry as the potential prophecy boys. I still think most Death Eaters, upon hearing the prophecy would have gone after the PUREBLOOD, because they value purebloods more and think more highly of them. It would have raised questions in my opinion, if anyone had known there were two potential targets, and Voldemort was more scared of the supposedly inferior one.

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journeymom - May 21, 2006 8:54 pm (#1139 of 1448)

I do wonder what Voldemort's criteria was for sizing up the two boys. I know that Dd explained some of this Harry. Maybe it was something like LV identified with Harry more and therefore felt the stronger threat. But when Harry was a baby he was still part of a two parent, loving family, both competent wizards. So, maybe it had less to do with Harry (and Neville) and more to do with Harry's parents. What did the Potters and the Longbottoms do to three times defy LV? What the Longbottoms did was less threatening?

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journeymom - May 21, 2006 9:17 pm (#1140 of 1448)

Also, I guess Neville's grandmum would know if her daughter-in-law's sister was Severus Snape's mother. And good point about the age difference. Alice Longbottom would be approximately from the same generation as the Potters, and Eileen would be closer to Prof MacGonagall's age.

Ah well. I love the idea that Snape is Neville's uncle.

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mooncalf - May 21, 2006 9:29 pm (#1141 of 1448)

It's worth wondering about, journeymom. Maybe Voldie planned to eliminate both families, and just happened to go to the Potters first.

I don't suppose it could really be that simple, though.

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Soul Search - May 22, 2006 5:47 am (#1142 of 1448)

mooncalf,

Maybe Voldie planned to eliminate both families, and just happened to go to the Potters first.

I think it is that simple. I have never understood the idea that Voldemort chose Harry over Neville. Even Dumbledore suggests that Voldemort chose Harry. I don't buy it.

Voldemort was already after the Potters and Longbottoms (defied three times.) Given a prophecy that could mean either baby, Voldemort would kill both of them, just to be on the safe side. Both boys were in hiding, Harry with his parents, Neville with his grandmother.

Voldemort went after Harry because Wormtail told Voldemort where he was hiding. Voldemort didn't choose, but responded to an opportunity.

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Choices - May 22, 2006 9:36 am (#1143 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Had Voldemort succeeded in killing Harry, I think he would have hot footed it right over to the Longbottom's house and killed Neville. I think it was purely accidental that he marked Harry as his equal - the backfiring AK transferred the powers from Voldemort to Harry. Surely Voldemort would not have given Harry equal power if he could have helped it - Harry is his enemy, the one who is to kill Voldemort, he would not purposely help Harry to become stronger and more powerful.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - May 22, 2006 9:44 am (#1144 of 1448)

Counting the days until 6/20/09....
Soul Search, Mooncalf, and Choices, I agree with all of you. I think LV probably realized that "The Chosen One" could have been either Harry or Neville. He went for Harry first for whatever reason (whether it was because Wormtail could tell him exactly where the Potters were or because he really did see Harry as the bigger threat, who knows) and was almost killed while attacking Harry. Had he been able to kill Harry, I think he would have assumed that it meant Neville was the threat and would have then turned on Neville.

Here's my question: DD tells Harry that he really is "The Chosen One" but that it seems the only reason this is true is because LV put stock into the prophecy and made Harry "The Chosen One." So, what would have happened if LV had gone after Neville first? If we follow DD's line of thinking, Neville would have been "The Chosen One" and Harry would have led a normal life. But, if we believe that Harry is "The Chosen One", not so much because LV made it so, but because the prophecy was refering strictly to him and not Neville, then had LV gone after Neville first, he would have killed him and then went on to Harry and Harry would have the same life he has now, except there would be no Neville around. What do you guys think? Am I totally off in my thinking here, or do you guys lean more towards one of the scenarios I've mentioned then the other?

-Jenn

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Magic Words - May 22, 2006 10:16 am (#1145 of 1448)

I'd say either is possible, because the prophecy is worded ambiguously. We don't know if the prophecy or whatever sentience was behind it knew it would be one of the two, or knew it would be Harry and just happened to give a description that also fit Neville. It's possible that JKR didn't even consider this, though if she did, I would lean more towards your first option because it underscores the importance of choice. However, if no one had died for Neville, it might have been Harry anyway.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 22, 2006 7:07 pm (#1146 of 1448)

Jenn,I agree.Harry's outcome would have been the same because his mother died for him.Voldemort gave Lily an option,as to why we still don't kmow,but I don't think he would have gave the same option to Neville's mother.

As for the prophecy,even if Snape did hear the whole thing he only gave Voldemort the first part of it as evidenced by Voldemorts plan to obtain it in book 5.Maybe this is why Dumbledore trusts him.

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frogface - May 23, 2006 1:07 am (#1147 of 1448)

JKR says on her website that, had LV gone after Neville, and Alice had stood in the way the same as Lily had done, then Neville would be the one with the Chosen One. I think the prophecy links directly to what Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP. Tyrant's fear those they opress because they know that one day one of them will strike back. The prophecy was basically saying (in a very ambiguous manner) that Voldemort was going to create his own enemy. Of course Voldemort didn't realise this and so fulfilled the terms of the Prophecy that he was unaware of.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - May 23, 2006 5:16 am (#1148 of 1448)

Counting the days until 6/20/09....
Thanks for your input everyone! The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards t he idea that Neville could have been "The Chosen One" had LV gone after him first instead of Harry. I know that the reason Harry survived was because Lily dies for him, and so Alice would have had to die for Neville in order for him to survive, but I'd like to think that any mother would die in order to protect their child. (Well, maybe any normal mother, I don't know if Bella would, especially if it was a choice between dieing to save her child or protecting Voldie ) So, I think, given what we're told about the Longbottoms, (well-liked, good Aurors, respected) that Alice would gladly have done the same thing Lily did.

Jm2k

-Jenn

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Choices - May 23, 2006 8:48 am (#1149 of 1448)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I love Neville, but I wonder if he would have had the intestinal fortitude to tackle Voldemort if he had been "the Chosen One"? He is a totally different person than Harry, he doesn't have Ron and Hermione for support and he doesn't seem to have the magical ability that Harry does. Neville is definitely growing magically and he is a dear character, but I really don't think he has what it takes to confront Voldemort and DE's and other scary situations.

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frogface - May 23, 2006 10:19 am (#1150 of 1448)

I think Neville has what it takes to tackle DE's. After all he's faced Death Eaters twice and come out alive both times, and he's learning all the time. However if he was given Harry's task I think I'd have to agree that he wouldn't suceed. His confidence has been whittled down too much by his Grandmother and Snape, and this affects his performance. I hope that one day he realises that he doesn't need to apologise for being him. If he can do that then I think he'll find a lot more potential in himself to become a great Wizard. He's certainly brave and he's got determination. He's also a lot less reckless than Harry which is a plus.

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