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Neville Longbottom II (Post 1151 to 1200)
Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:37 am
Steve Newton - May 23, 2006 10:23 am (#1151 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville definitely has the intestinal fortitude. He is the Blucher (Marshal Forwards) of the Wizarding World. Skill? Don't know.
OK, Marshal Forwards works better in the original German but I don't know German.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 23, 2006 12:21 pm (#1152 of 1448)
Steve that is an interesting analogy because, I agree that Neville definitely has the drive and determination of Field Marshal Blucher. I can imagone Neville doing whatever was necessary to assist Harry. Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Luna. Your analaogy makes me wonder whether Ron who is arguably a skilled tactican and strategist in his own right could could be equated to the role of Field Marshall Gneisenau.
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Choices - May 23, 2006 4:29 pm (#1153 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have no doubt about Neville's bravery when facing DE's in a group - like at the MOM battle. He was great! But I was talking about Neville facing Voldemort and DE's like Harry as had to do....alone.....like in the graveyard, for example.
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Soul Search - May 23, 2006 5:30 pm (#1154 of 1448)
Neville is a Gryffindor. He would be brave in any situation. We have small examples starting in SS where he takes on Crabbe and Goyle at the Quiditch match.
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Chemyst - May 26, 2006 4:50 pm (#1155 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
But I was talking about Neville facing Voldemort and DE's like Harry as had to do....alone.... Choices
Harry certainly had some experience in doing stuff alone, whereas Neville's Gran almost smothered him with over-protectiveness.
SO... I think if Voldemort had gone after Neville, and if Alice had died to save Neville, and if Neville was then raised in the WW by his Gran, then...
His Gran would have raised him with more expectations and confidence, but he'd have had a lot of pressure put on him as a tyke, and he would have had a vastly different relationship with DD than Harry did;
SO... I think when he'd have faced Voldemort and the DE's, Neville would have felt much more as if his course of action was doomed by fate. For Harry, it was still a real choice.
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mooncalf - May 27, 2006 2:01 pm (#1156 of 1448)
Bravery is not fearlessness, but the ability to face your fears. As Soul Search says, Neville has shown his courage many times - facing down Crabbe and Goyle, Bella or even his own friends.
Neville may lack panache, but he has plenty of courage!
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TomProffitt - Jun 6, 2006 6:04 pm (#1157 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
Finally got my copy of Jim Dale reading HBP a few weeks ago. Hearing Jim Dale read Dumbledore's explanation of the prophecy says as much about Neville as it does about Harry. (Well, actually Jo said it, but it was listening to Mr. Dale that made me realize it)
The prophecy doesn't dictate the future, it may see it, but it doesn't make it happen. Harry was molded into the force that can destroy Tom Riddle because of Riddle's fear of what the prophecy implied. Riddle feared that the prophecy was true and took steps that inadvertently made (or set about the process of making) Harry Potter "the Chosen One."
In much the same way Belatrix, Barty Jr., et al made Neville into a power at the Chosen One's side. How much would Neville have grown at Hogwarts without the need to prove himself worthy of his martyred father?
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mooncalf - Jun 7, 2006 9:41 am (#1158 of 1448)
I honestly think that Neville's courage is intrinsic. Courage is part of the essential fiber of who he is. It has been hidden under his timidity and lack of self-esteem, and I think that those characteristics were given to him by his overbearing grandmother She may have altered who Neville is on the outside, but fortunately she was not able to crush his courage or his strength of character.
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TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 9:50 am (#1159 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
I don't disagree that Neville's courage would always have been there, but I think the family tragedy has been an impetus to Neville's determination. Without the crippling of his parents I think Neville would have been a lot more like Seamus and Dean, willing to befriend Harry, but not feeling a compulsion to aid him.
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haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 10:54 am (#1160 of 1448)
I think his determination was described as "almost scary" as he was learning spells in the DA.
I just love Neville.
I really want him to zap Bella, though!
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TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 11:35 am (#1161 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
My last platoon sergeant before I got out of the guard (he was 55 and I was 35, we were the two old men in the platoon) used to try to guess which guy in the platoon would be the one to win "the medal" (the Congressional Medal of Honor) if we ever went into combat. He was a Viet Nam vet and said that it was never the guy you may have thought at first. Neville Longbottom would be my guess, I just can't imagine him refusing to be heroic, no running away, passing out, or giving up for Neville.
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virginiaelizabeth - Jun 7, 2006 11:35 am (#1162 of 1448)
SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Me too haymoni! I think he will in the end!
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Winky Woo - Jun 22, 2006 1:25 am (#1163 of 1448)
My favourite place in the world, the English Lake District
We are all thinking about the Neville we know and love, however if the AK had rebounded, and temporarily "Vanquished" Voldy, (should he have tried to kill Neville first) then I think that his up bringing would have been completely different. His Grandmother would surely have been proud, and with positive support and encouragement from the entire wizarding world he would be a much more confident and dare I say competent wizard.
The title of the series would of course then have been "Neville Longbottom and Philosophers Stone" etc!
Winky X
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cindysuewho45 - Jul 3, 2006 10:56 am (#1164 of 1448)
Hi all, I feel that Neville has always had some courage. Like when in book one he stands up to Herry, Hermone, and Ron, and tells them not to go out. DD gave him 10 points for it I think. And I feel, he is going to be doing all he can to help Harry with the DE's etc..
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Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 1:48 am (#1165 of 1448)
"We are all thinking about the Neville we know and love, however if the AK had rebounded, and temporarily "Vanquished" Voldy, (should he have tried to kill Neville first) then I think that his up bringing would have been completely different."
OR ... Admittedly, through the Harry filter: "Had Voldemort chosen Neville, it would be Neville sitting opposite Harry bearing the lightening-shaped scar and the weight of the prophecy ... or would it?" (HPB, Chapter Seven)
I love Neville too and think he has demonstrated his courage numerous times in the series, starting with Book One. Heck, just going to see his parents in their state for all the holidays throughout his whole life shows a kind of willingness to face the horrible that a lot of adults - let alone children - do not have the fortitude to do!
Still, who is to say that if V had gone after the one-year-old Neville instead of Harry that the results would necessarily have been the same? Just throwing this out. We don't *really* know what saved Harry and caused the spell to rebound on V. Sure, it was Lily's willingness to die for her son, but I cannot believe that plenty of people were willing to die for others (ie - parents, spouses, friends) during Voldemort's first reign of terror, and probably stood in front of the intended victim. It just makes sense. Yet, V and his DEs still managed to kill thousands according to Dumbledore.
So, maybe it was something about Harry himself - as well as Lily's sacrifice - that resulted in him being the only person who lived after being AK'd by the greatest dark wizard ever. And *maybe* if Neville had been attacked instead - even with a mother who loved him dearly and was willing to die for him -, Voldemort would have been successful.
I'm just throwing this out as a random speculation. (What a horrible thought, though!)
Laura
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haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 4:42 am (#1166 of 1448)
I wonder though if Voldy spent time killing children.
Here you have a mother who is not just defending her children, i.e. standing in front of them with a wand trying to protect them from Voldy, but a mom who will not move.
He was trying to get to Harry. He really could not have cared less about Lily. She knew that Voldy wanted Harry and she deliberately stood in his way.
I guess the death of James was more like what you are describing, Laura - I'm sure loads of people defended their homes and children and were killed in the process, but didn't actually choose to give up their lives for them.
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Morlicar - Jul 5, 2006 9:33 am (#1167 of 1448)
Voldemort game Lily a choice, Stand aside or die...and she chose to die protecting her son. My understanding is that this choice is what triggered the ancient magic that protects (or protected) Harry.
James was never given the choice so his death had no effect on Harry's protection.
In order for Neville to have had the same protection, Voldemort would have needed to give the choice to one of Neville's parents and they would have had to choose the same path.
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Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 11:45 pm (#1168 of 1448)
"I guess the death of James was more like what you are describing, Laura - I'm sure loads of people defended their homes and children and were killed in the process, but didn't actually choose to give up their lives for them."
I don't get off the hook that easily, haymoni. No, I was talking about Lily and what she did; not James. I still contend that a lot of people during the first wizard war would have stood in front of loved ones and not moved. As you put it, were willing to give up their lives for the other person. Who cried out, "Take me instead of her/him!" It is just logical to me that this would have happened. (At which point, V or his followers undoubtedly AK'd *both* parties - successfully.)
I know that Sirius tells Harry in PoA, "Believe me. I never betrayed James and Lily. I would have died before I betrayed them." And I believe him. Had he been the Secret Keeper, he would have had V kill him rather than reveal the Potter's whereabouts. Which would be the equivalent of putting his own body in front of James' and Lily's, because there is no other way for Voldemort to find the Potters with the Secret Keeper dead.
Morlicar, your point is very interesting. Maybe in all the other cases where people stood in front of loved ones, Voldemort did not bother to say, "Stand aside - stand aside, girl -" PoA (p. 177, Cdn. edition), but just said something like, "As you wish. You *shall* die. And so will he/she. Avada Kedavra!"
I think you might have answered my question. It is not the fact that Lily was willing to die for Harry and placed herself in front of him - as Neville's mother would have done, I'm sure - that saved Harry, but the fact that she was given the choice to get out of the way and save her own life (something V had never done with anybody else, I'm guessing) and didn't take up his offer that is the defining issue here. Maybe.
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haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 6:13 am (#1169 of 1448)
Yes - I'm guessing whole families were wiped out. Why would you leave any survivors?
Perhaps Voldy never really gave anyone a chance.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 6, 2006 11:10 am (#1170 of 1448)
Maybe the difference is, that in this case the child was the main target? In the other examples, children might have been killed as well, because Voldemort and the Death Eaters wanted to wipe the families out completely. But in this case, the main reason for the attack was the child, and maybe this is why Lily's protection worked and could have worked as well, has Frank or Alice sacrificed themselves for Neville.
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Chemyst - Jul 6, 2006 4:18 pm (#1171 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm guessing whole families were wiped out. Why would you leave any survivors? — haymoni
That is called ethnic cleansing. In the muggle world, it is about the only permanent way to win in guerrilla warfare. If that is the direction Book 7 takes, the Philosophy of the Forum rule about politics may get a workout.
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Catherine - Jul 6, 2006 5:53 pm (#1172 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
That is an interesting point, Chemyst.
Events have, to some extent, wiped out many of the old wizarding families. The Blacks and the Crouches appear to have come to the end of their line. Harry is the only Potter that we know about. Neville's parents were able to have him as their only child.
I imagine that Neville could have been lonely growing up in his grandmother's house. I'd love to see him really happy.
Even though this is pure movie contamination, one thing I did like about the film GoF was seeing Neville's pleasure in the ball. In the book, I was happy for him that he stepped right up and asked Hermione (unsuccessfully) and then Ginny to the dance before Harry and Ron worked up their own nerve to ask a date.
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haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 4:41 am (#1173 of 1448)
Another example of Neville's bravery!!
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Choices - Jul 7, 2006 10:34 am (#1174 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Catherine, I'm with you about Neville and the ball. It was so sweet and touching and Neville seemed to get so much pleasure out of dancing at the ball. It was definitely a Kleenex moment for me. I adore Neville.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 7, 2006 4:02 pm (#1175 of 1448)
Choices and Catherine that was one of my favorite parts of the movie.
In the book and in the movie the scene that really got to me was the fake Moody demonstrating to Neville and the class the Cruciatus Cures. The very man who helped give his parents a life sentence to St. Mungos performing the curse in front of him. In my mind that is Jo's most twisted writing. LPO
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2006 7:09 pm (#1176 of 1448)
I agree about the fimed scene of Neville at the ball. It was absolutely adoreable when he came back all excited. The ball was the bst part of the book AND film for me.
I still think the fact that Neville MIGHT have been in Harry's place will mean something. I think if he finds out someday it will be a powerful scene.
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Finn BV - Jul 7, 2006 8:03 pm (#1177 of 1448)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I must chime in, I was shouting "Yay Neville!" when I saw the scene on film.
I think Harry still has yet to realize how key Neville is in his whole plot. Sure, he'll seek the help of Ron and Hermione, and Ginny probably, but he's never gone for Neville to help him. And he needs to -- Neville is the second key to the series. (The first, of course, is Harry.)
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Choices - Jul 8, 2006 9:14 am (#1178 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm starting to read the series over again and am in book 1 - I think it is important to note that the four who cross the lake to Hogwarts in the same boat are Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville. To me that shows Neville's importance to the whole series.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 8, 2006 10:51 am (#1179 of 1448)
Choices I reread the whole series in June. The same thing occurred to me. Neville is always near the trio. After what he learned in OoP I think he has proven himself to be a very good fighter. He refused to give into pain and fear during the MoM battle. I loved in HBP Harry sitting with Neville and Luna. Harry finally figured out the value of true friends over looking cool. LPO
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Regan of Gong - Jul 11, 2006 3:24 am (#1180 of 1448)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Just a side note...took inspiration from Neville when we had to do dancing in P.E. And we were learing the Waltz! Teacher made sure that our hands weren't any lower than the back. I really enjoyed it as well, no other guys seemed to though...spose I just got into it.
I'm a few chapters into PoA at the moment, it's only taken a few days, so I'm worried I'll run out of bokks before holidays.
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Choices - Jul 11, 2006 9:51 am (#1181 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Regan - " I really enjoyed it as well, no other guys seemed to though"
Good for you Regan. Everyone should know how to dance, even if just a little. I loved the fact that Neville enjoyed dancing - it was like he blossomed when he danced.
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haymoni - Jul 11, 2006 10:15 am (#1182 of 1448)
Every woman loves a guy who can dance! Good for you, Regan!
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Miss Amanda - Jul 16, 2006 10:32 am (#1183 of 1448)
Don't forget Trevor! Neville's pet is still fascinating to me. He's lived a very eventful life, that toad, and seems to play hide-and-seek during important moments.
And we've never seen Crookshanks looking hungrily at him! Or Hedwig, who has been known to eat frogs. Maybe toads are just a little too poisonous to snack on.
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cindysuewho45 - Aug 4, 2006 10:36 pm (#1184 of 1448)
Hi all, I am so hoping that Neville gets to do in Bella, or at lest be the one that sends her back to prison.
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darien - Aug 5, 2006 1:33 am (#1185 of 1448)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Or leave her in Frank and Alice state
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Magic Words - Aug 6, 2006 6:41 pm (#1186 of 1448)
Unfortunately, I doubt that. Neville can't sink to her level.
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cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 8:29 pm (#1187 of 1448)
Hi all, But look at how he went off on Draco, when he was talking about loony people at school. It took both Harry and Ron to stop him. And Harry said that Neville was getting better, faster than all the rest in the DA. It could happen, I hope.
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haymoni - Aug 8, 2006 5:03 am (#1188 of 1448)
He should get to zap her with SOMETHING - just once.
I don't care what it is - an Unforgiveable or even just a Leg-Locker Curse.
Anything!
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Liz McKean - Aug 11, 2006 2:03 pm (#1189 of 1448)
There is no way that Neville can zap Bella yet. He needs more experience with his new wand!
I think that he should take extra lessons from Harry.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 11, 2006 2:47 pm (#1190 of 1448)
He got his new wand Liz. HBP p. 137 Scholastic Hard bound. It is made of Cherry and unicorn hair. I agree he needs some experience. But I was very impressed at how determined he was in OoP. LPO
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Elanor - Aug 23, 2006 3:57 am (#1191 of 1448)
I was reading this thread and found, in an old post by El Crostina de Salem this sentence: "The original surname of Neville was "Puff" ('Harry Potter and Me')." (post #745), which I find particularly interesting. I have checked the transcript of "Harry Potter and me" though and didn't find that quote. Would someone know from where it comes and if it is canon?
Thanks!
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 23, 2006 12:48 pm (#1192 of 1448)
I know definitely that it is Canon. JKR showed some pictures from the list of the students in Harry's years and among them were a Neville Puff and a Hermione Puckle. I do not have any links to them anymore, but I have seen the scans and it is true.
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Elanor - Aug 24, 2006 10:20 am (#1193 of 1448)
Thanks Neville!
I would love to see those scans! Would anyone know where it is possible to find them online?
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Chemyst - Aug 24, 2006 6:57 pm (#1194 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Yes! It still works!
Go to Tomoe's post #137 in the Other Students of Hogwarts thread and click on her link to a screen shot.
You can see only the 'He' of Hermione, but you can see Neville clearly.
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Elanor - Aug 24, 2006 8:56 pm (#1195 of 1448)
Thank you so much Chemist!!!
This is a fascinating piece of paper! If we think of "Longbottom" as the tobacco leaf's name from the LotR, it is interesting to notice that both "Puff" and "Longbottom" carry this "smoke" idea, hmm... I like the idea it is to tell us that Neville timorous appearance is but a "screen of smoke" and that there is definitely more about him than meet the eye!
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Asthore Cailin - Aug 25, 2006 3:00 am (#1196 of 1448)
Muggle-born
Neville Longbottom is one of my favorite characters in the books. The fact that his parents were Aurors makes me believe that Neville's true skills will come about and he will be an unbelievable wizard. Second to none, and equal to the best. His role at the Ministry of Magic was only a small taste of what he is capable of.
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Catherine - Aug 26, 2006 3:14 am (#1197 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
This is a fascinating piece of paper! If we think of "Longbottom" as the tobacco leaf's name from the LotR, it is interesting to notice that both "Puff" and "Longbottom" carry this "smoke" idea, hmm... I like the idea it is to tell us that Neville timorous appearance is but a "screen of smoke" and that there is definitely more about him than meet the eye!--Elanor
I sure hope Neville's link to "smoke" doesn't foreshadow an outcome like Cedric Diggory's....
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Regan of Gong - Aug 28, 2006 3:13 am (#1198 of 1448)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Daphne Greengrass's name was originally Queenie Greengrass. Lots of interesting names.
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Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2006 5:58 am (#1199 of 1448)
Librarian
I just reread OOTP. The scene in which the Prophecy breaks makes it clear that Harry didn't hear it because of the noise. I see no mention of Neville not hearing the Prophecy. I think that he did.
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Anna L. Black - Sep 11, 2006 10:08 am (#1200 of 1448)
Hmmmm, that's interesting. He said in HBP (In Sluggy's company, on the train) "We never heard a prophecy", and I don't know if he would lie on such a subject - then again, we can always say it wasn't a lie (because the "we" really didn't hear a prophecy, only "I" did).
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Librarian
Neville definitely has the intestinal fortitude. He is the Blucher (Marshal Forwards) of the Wizarding World. Skill? Don't know.
OK, Marshal Forwards works better in the original German but I don't know German.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 23, 2006 12:21 pm (#1152 of 1448)
Steve that is an interesting analogy because, I agree that Neville definitely has the drive and determination of Field Marshal Blucher. I can imagone Neville doing whatever was necessary to assist Harry. Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Luna. Your analaogy makes me wonder whether Ron who is arguably a skilled tactican and strategist in his own right could could be equated to the role of Field Marshall Gneisenau.
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Choices - May 23, 2006 4:29 pm (#1153 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have no doubt about Neville's bravery when facing DE's in a group - like at the MOM battle. He was great! But I was talking about Neville facing Voldemort and DE's like Harry as had to do....alone.....like in the graveyard, for example.
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Soul Search - May 23, 2006 5:30 pm (#1154 of 1448)
Neville is a Gryffindor. He would be brave in any situation. We have small examples starting in SS where he takes on Crabbe and Goyle at the Quiditch match.
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Chemyst - May 26, 2006 4:50 pm (#1155 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
But I was talking about Neville facing Voldemort and DE's like Harry as had to do....alone.... Choices
Harry certainly had some experience in doing stuff alone, whereas Neville's Gran almost smothered him with over-protectiveness.
SO... I think if Voldemort had gone after Neville, and if Alice had died to save Neville, and if Neville was then raised in the WW by his Gran, then...
His Gran would have raised him with more expectations and confidence, but he'd have had a lot of pressure put on him as a tyke, and he would have had a vastly different relationship with DD than Harry did;
SO... I think when he'd have faced Voldemort and the DE's, Neville would have felt much more as if his course of action was doomed by fate. For Harry, it was still a real choice.
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mooncalf - May 27, 2006 2:01 pm (#1156 of 1448)
Bravery is not fearlessness, but the ability to face your fears. As Soul Search says, Neville has shown his courage many times - facing down Crabbe and Goyle, Bella or even his own friends.
Neville may lack panache, but he has plenty of courage!
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TomProffitt - Jun 6, 2006 6:04 pm (#1157 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
Finally got my copy of Jim Dale reading HBP a few weeks ago. Hearing Jim Dale read Dumbledore's explanation of the prophecy says as much about Neville as it does about Harry. (Well, actually Jo said it, but it was listening to Mr. Dale that made me realize it)
The prophecy doesn't dictate the future, it may see it, but it doesn't make it happen. Harry was molded into the force that can destroy Tom Riddle because of Riddle's fear of what the prophecy implied. Riddle feared that the prophecy was true and took steps that inadvertently made (or set about the process of making) Harry Potter "the Chosen One."
In much the same way Belatrix, Barty Jr., et al made Neville into a power at the Chosen One's side. How much would Neville have grown at Hogwarts without the need to prove himself worthy of his martyred father?
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mooncalf - Jun 7, 2006 9:41 am (#1158 of 1448)
I honestly think that Neville's courage is intrinsic. Courage is part of the essential fiber of who he is. It has been hidden under his timidity and lack of self-esteem, and I think that those characteristics were given to him by his overbearing grandmother She may have altered who Neville is on the outside, but fortunately she was not able to crush his courage or his strength of character.
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TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 9:50 am (#1159 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
I don't disagree that Neville's courage would always have been there, but I think the family tragedy has been an impetus to Neville's determination. Without the crippling of his parents I think Neville would have been a lot more like Seamus and Dean, willing to befriend Harry, but not feeling a compulsion to aid him.
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haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 10:54 am (#1160 of 1448)
I think his determination was described as "almost scary" as he was learning spells in the DA.
I just love Neville.
I really want him to zap Bella, though!
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TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 11:35 am (#1161 of 1448)
Bullheaded empiricist
My last platoon sergeant before I got out of the guard (he was 55 and I was 35, we were the two old men in the platoon) used to try to guess which guy in the platoon would be the one to win "the medal" (the Congressional Medal of Honor) if we ever went into combat. He was a Viet Nam vet and said that it was never the guy you may have thought at first. Neville Longbottom would be my guess, I just can't imagine him refusing to be heroic, no running away, passing out, or giving up for Neville.
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virginiaelizabeth - Jun 7, 2006 11:35 am (#1162 of 1448)
SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
Me too haymoni! I think he will in the end!
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Winky Woo - Jun 22, 2006 1:25 am (#1163 of 1448)
My favourite place in the world, the English Lake District
We are all thinking about the Neville we know and love, however if the AK had rebounded, and temporarily "Vanquished" Voldy, (should he have tried to kill Neville first) then I think that his up bringing would have been completely different. His Grandmother would surely have been proud, and with positive support and encouragement from the entire wizarding world he would be a much more confident and dare I say competent wizard.
The title of the series would of course then have been "Neville Longbottom and Philosophers Stone" etc!
Winky X
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cindysuewho45 - Jul 3, 2006 10:56 am (#1164 of 1448)
Hi all, I feel that Neville has always had some courage. Like when in book one he stands up to Herry, Hermone, and Ron, and tells them not to go out. DD gave him 10 points for it I think. And I feel, he is going to be doing all he can to help Harry with the DE's etc..
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Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 1:48 am (#1165 of 1448)
"We are all thinking about the Neville we know and love, however if the AK had rebounded, and temporarily "Vanquished" Voldy, (should he have tried to kill Neville first) then I think that his up bringing would have been completely different."
OR ... Admittedly, through the Harry filter: "Had Voldemort chosen Neville, it would be Neville sitting opposite Harry bearing the lightening-shaped scar and the weight of the prophecy ... or would it?" (HPB, Chapter Seven)
I love Neville too and think he has demonstrated his courage numerous times in the series, starting with Book One. Heck, just going to see his parents in their state for all the holidays throughout his whole life shows a kind of willingness to face the horrible that a lot of adults - let alone children - do not have the fortitude to do!
Still, who is to say that if V had gone after the one-year-old Neville instead of Harry that the results would necessarily have been the same? Just throwing this out. We don't *really* know what saved Harry and caused the spell to rebound on V. Sure, it was Lily's willingness to die for her son, but I cannot believe that plenty of people were willing to die for others (ie - parents, spouses, friends) during Voldemort's first reign of terror, and probably stood in front of the intended victim. It just makes sense. Yet, V and his DEs still managed to kill thousands according to Dumbledore.
So, maybe it was something about Harry himself - as well as Lily's sacrifice - that resulted in him being the only person who lived after being AK'd by the greatest dark wizard ever. And *maybe* if Neville had been attacked instead - even with a mother who loved him dearly and was willing to die for him -, Voldemort would have been successful.
I'm just throwing this out as a random speculation. (What a horrible thought, though!)
Laura
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haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 4:42 am (#1166 of 1448)
I wonder though if Voldy spent time killing children.
Here you have a mother who is not just defending her children, i.e. standing in front of them with a wand trying to protect them from Voldy, but a mom who will not move.
He was trying to get to Harry. He really could not have cared less about Lily. She knew that Voldy wanted Harry and she deliberately stood in his way.
I guess the death of James was more like what you are describing, Laura - I'm sure loads of people defended their homes and children and were killed in the process, but didn't actually choose to give up their lives for them.
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Morlicar - Jul 5, 2006 9:33 am (#1167 of 1448)
Voldemort game Lily a choice, Stand aside or die...and she chose to die protecting her son. My understanding is that this choice is what triggered the ancient magic that protects (or protected) Harry.
James was never given the choice so his death had no effect on Harry's protection.
In order for Neville to have had the same protection, Voldemort would have needed to give the choice to one of Neville's parents and they would have had to choose the same path.
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Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 11:45 pm (#1168 of 1448)
"I guess the death of James was more like what you are describing, Laura - I'm sure loads of people defended their homes and children and were killed in the process, but didn't actually choose to give up their lives for them."
I don't get off the hook that easily, haymoni. No, I was talking about Lily and what she did; not James. I still contend that a lot of people during the first wizard war would have stood in front of loved ones and not moved. As you put it, were willing to give up their lives for the other person. Who cried out, "Take me instead of her/him!" It is just logical to me that this would have happened. (At which point, V or his followers undoubtedly AK'd *both* parties - successfully.)
I know that Sirius tells Harry in PoA, "Believe me. I never betrayed James and Lily. I would have died before I betrayed them." And I believe him. Had he been the Secret Keeper, he would have had V kill him rather than reveal the Potter's whereabouts. Which would be the equivalent of putting his own body in front of James' and Lily's, because there is no other way for Voldemort to find the Potters with the Secret Keeper dead.
Morlicar, your point is very interesting. Maybe in all the other cases where people stood in front of loved ones, Voldemort did not bother to say, "Stand aside - stand aside, girl -" PoA (p. 177, Cdn. edition), but just said something like, "As you wish. You *shall* die. And so will he/she. Avada Kedavra!"
I think you might have answered my question. It is not the fact that Lily was willing to die for Harry and placed herself in front of him - as Neville's mother would have done, I'm sure - that saved Harry, but the fact that she was given the choice to get out of the way and save her own life (something V had never done with anybody else, I'm guessing) and didn't take up his offer that is the defining issue here. Maybe.
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haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 6:13 am (#1169 of 1448)
Yes - I'm guessing whole families were wiped out. Why would you leave any survivors?
Perhaps Voldy never really gave anyone a chance.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 6, 2006 11:10 am (#1170 of 1448)
Maybe the difference is, that in this case the child was the main target? In the other examples, children might have been killed as well, because Voldemort and the Death Eaters wanted to wipe the families out completely. But in this case, the main reason for the attack was the child, and maybe this is why Lily's protection worked and could have worked as well, has Frank or Alice sacrificed themselves for Neville.
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Chemyst - Jul 6, 2006 4:18 pm (#1171 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm guessing whole families were wiped out. Why would you leave any survivors? — haymoni
That is called ethnic cleansing. In the muggle world, it is about the only permanent way to win in guerrilla warfare. If that is the direction Book 7 takes, the Philosophy of the Forum rule about politics may get a workout.
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Catherine - Jul 6, 2006 5:53 pm (#1172 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
That is an interesting point, Chemyst.
Events have, to some extent, wiped out many of the old wizarding families. The Blacks and the Crouches appear to have come to the end of their line. Harry is the only Potter that we know about. Neville's parents were able to have him as their only child.
I imagine that Neville could have been lonely growing up in his grandmother's house. I'd love to see him really happy.
Even though this is pure movie contamination, one thing I did like about the film GoF was seeing Neville's pleasure in the ball. In the book, I was happy for him that he stepped right up and asked Hermione (unsuccessfully) and then Ginny to the dance before Harry and Ron worked up their own nerve to ask a date.
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haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 4:41 am (#1173 of 1448)
Another example of Neville's bravery!!
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Choices - Jul 7, 2006 10:34 am (#1174 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Catherine, I'm with you about Neville and the ball. It was so sweet and touching and Neville seemed to get so much pleasure out of dancing at the ball. It was definitely a Kleenex moment for me. I adore Neville.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 7, 2006 4:02 pm (#1175 of 1448)
Choices and Catherine that was one of my favorite parts of the movie.
In the book and in the movie the scene that really got to me was the fake Moody demonstrating to Neville and the class the Cruciatus Cures. The very man who helped give his parents a life sentence to St. Mungos performing the curse in front of him. In my mind that is Jo's most twisted writing. LPO
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2006 7:09 pm (#1176 of 1448)
I agree about the fimed scene of Neville at the ball. It was absolutely adoreable when he came back all excited. The ball was the bst part of the book AND film for me.
I still think the fact that Neville MIGHT have been in Harry's place will mean something. I think if he finds out someday it will be a powerful scene.
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Finn BV - Jul 7, 2006 8:03 pm (#1177 of 1448)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I must chime in, I was shouting "Yay Neville!" when I saw the scene on film.
I think Harry still has yet to realize how key Neville is in his whole plot. Sure, he'll seek the help of Ron and Hermione, and Ginny probably, but he's never gone for Neville to help him. And he needs to -- Neville is the second key to the series. (The first, of course, is Harry.)
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Choices - Jul 8, 2006 9:14 am (#1178 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm starting to read the series over again and am in book 1 - I think it is important to note that the four who cross the lake to Hogwarts in the same boat are Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville. To me that shows Neville's importance to the whole series.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 8, 2006 10:51 am (#1179 of 1448)
Choices I reread the whole series in June. The same thing occurred to me. Neville is always near the trio. After what he learned in OoP I think he has proven himself to be a very good fighter. He refused to give into pain and fear during the MoM battle. I loved in HBP Harry sitting with Neville and Luna. Harry finally figured out the value of true friends over looking cool. LPO
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Regan of Gong - Jul 11, 2006 3:24 am (#1180 of 1448)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Just a side note...took inspiration from Neville when we had to do dancing in P.E. And we were learing the Waltz! Teacher made sure that our hands weren't any lower than the back. I really enjoyed it as well, no other guys seemed to though...spose I just got into it.
I'm a few chapters into PoA at the moment, it's only taken a few days, so I'm worried I'll run out of bokks before holidays.
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Choices - Jul 11, 2006 9:51 am (#1181 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Regan - " I really enjoyed it as well, no other guys seemed to though"
Good for you Regan. Everyone should know how to dance, even if just a little. I loved the fact that Neville enjoyed dancing - it was like he blossomed when he danced.
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haymoni - Jul 11, 2006 10:15 am (#1182 of 1448)
Every woman loves a guy who can dance! Good for you, Regan!
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Miss Amanda - Jul 16, 2006 10:32 am (#1183 of 1448)
Don't forget Trevor! Neville's pet is still fascinating to me. He's lived a very eventful life, that toad, and seems to play hide-and-seek during important moments.
And we've never seen Crookshanks looking hungrily at him! Or Hedwig, who has been known to eat frogs. Maybe toads are just a little too poisonous to snack on.
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cindysuewho45 - Aug 4, 2006 10:36 pm (#1184 of 1448)
Hi all, I am so hoping that Neville gets to do in Bella, or at lest be the one that sends her back to prison.
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darien - Aug 5, 2006 1:33 am (#1185 of 1448)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Or leave her in Frank and Alice state
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Magic Words - Aug 6, 2006 6:41 pm (#1186 of 1448)
Unfortunately, I doubt that. Neville can't sink to her level.
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cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 8:29 pm (#1187 of 1448)
Hi all, But look at how he went off on Draco, when he was talking about loony people at school. It took both Harry and Ron to stop him. And Harry said that Neville was getting better, faster than all the rest in the DA. It could happen, I hope.
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haymoni - Aug 8, 2006 5:03 am (#1188 of 1448)
He should get to zap her with SOMETHING - just once.
I don't care what it is - an Unforgiveable or even just a Leg-Locker Curse.
Anything!
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Liz McKean - Aug 11, 2006 2:03 pm (#1189 of 1448)
There is no way that Neville can zap Bella yet. He needs more experience with his new wand!
I think that he should take extra lessons from Harry.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 11, 2006 2:47 pm (#1190 of 1448)
He got his new wand Liz. HBP p. 137 Scholastic Hard bound. It is made of Cherry and unicorn hair. I agree he needs some experience. But I was very impressed at how determined he was in OoP. LPO
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Elanor - Aug 23, 2006 3:57 am (#1191 of 1448)
I was reading this thread and found, in an old post by El Crostina de Salem this sentence: "The original surname of Neville was "Puff" ('Harry Potter and Me')." (post #745), which I find particularly interesting. I have checked the transcript of "Harry Potter and me" though and didn't find that quote. Would someone know from where it comes and if it is canon?
Thanks!
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 23, 2006 12:48 pm (#1192 of 1448)
I know definitely that it is Canon. JKR showed some pictures from the list of the students in Harry's years and among them were a Neville Puff and a Hermione Puckle. I do not have any links to them anymore, but I have seen the scans and it is true.
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Elanor - Aug 24, 2006 10:20 am (#1193 of 1448)
Thanks Neville!
I would love to see those scans! Would anyone know where it is possible to find them online?
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Chemyst - Aug 24, 2006 6:57 pm (#1194 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Yes! It still works!
Go to Tomoe's post #137 in the Other Students of Hogwarts thread and click on her link to a screen shot.
You can see only the 'He' of Hermione, but you can see Neville clearly.
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Elanor - Aug 24, 2006 8:56 pm (#1195 of 1448)
Thank you so much Chemist!!!
This is a fascinating piece of paper! If we think of "Longbottom" as the tobacco leaf's name from the LotR, it is interesting to notice that both "Puff" and "Longbottom" carry this "smoke" idea, hmm... I like the idea it is to tell us that Neville timorous appearance is but a "screen of smoke" and that there is definitely more about him than meet the eye!
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Asthore Cailin - Aug 25, 2006 3:00 am (#1196 of 1448)
Muggle-born
Neville Longbottom is one of my favorite characters in the books. The fact that his parents were Aurors makes me believe that Neville's true skills will come about and he will be an unbelievable wizard. Second to none, and equal to the best. His role at the Ministry of Magic was only a small taste of what he is capable of.
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Catherine - Aug 26, 2006 3:14 am (#1197 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
This is a fascinating piece of paper! If we think of "Longbottom" as the tobacco leaf's name from the LotR, it is interesting to notice that both "Puff" and "Longbottom" carry this "smoke" idea, hmm... I like the idea it is to tell us that Neville timorous appearance is but a "screen of smoke" and that there is definitely more about him than meet the eye!--Elanor
I sure hope Neville's link to "smoke" doesn't foreshadow an outcome like Cedric Diggory's....
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Regan of Gong - Aug 28, 2006 3:13 am (#1198 of 1448)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Daphne Greengrass's name was originally Queenie Greengrass. Lots of interesting names.
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Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2006 5:58 am (#1199 of 1448)
Librarian
I just reread OOTP. The scene in which the Prophecy breaks makes it clear that Harry didn't hear it because of the noise. I see no mention of Neville not hearing the Prophecy. I think that he did.
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Anna L. Black - Sep 11, 2006 10:08 am (#1200 of 1448)
Hmmmm, that's interesting. He said in HBP (In Sluggy's company, on the train) "We never heard a prophecy", and I don't know if he would lie on such a subject - then again, we can always say it wasn't a lie (because the "we" really didn't hear a prophecy, only "I" did).
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Neville Longbottom II (Post 1201 to 1250)
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Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2006 10:12 am (#1201 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville has a history of being pretty close mouthed. He went years without telling anyone at school about his parents. I think that he would keep silent about this to protect Harry. More thought needed, though.
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Meoshimo - Sep 11, 2006 4:03 pm (#1202 of 1448)
Hmm, Neville went years without telling people about his parents because he didn't want to get teased for having crazy parents. If it was too loud for Harry to hear the prophecy once it broke, then I'm sure it was too loud for Neville to hear as well.
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Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2006 4:35 pm (#1203 of 1448)
Librarian
But, as I recall it, Neville was near the bottom of the whatever it was and, so, nearer to the Prophecy.
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Meoshimo - Sep 11, 2006 4:38 pm (#1204 of 1448)
Possible, but my gut tells me that he didn't hear it. I wish I could give my reasons by way of quotes from Neville about the smashing of the Prophecy, but I don't have copies of the books.
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Choices - Sep 11, 2006 5:11 pm (#1205 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it is a possiblility that Neville did hear the prophesy, but could he understand it all in just one hearing, under very difficult and distracting circumstances? I think of all the times I have read it trying to understand just what it means - still haven't figured it out, either. LOL
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Mediwitch - Sep 11, 2006 5:47 pm (#1206 of 1448)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
"We never heard a prophecy," said Neville, turning geranium pink as he said it." (Scholastic Hardbound, ch. 7, p. 146)
I'm not sure this really clears it up. Neville is probably turning pink because he is lying, but there are a couple of possible interpretations of that statement: (1) He is claiming there was no prophecy to hear, or (2) He couldn't hear it over the noise so although he "heard" a voice he was unable to distinguish the words. Obviously, he wants Slughorn to think the 1st, but readers can't really rule out the second based on the text.
EDIT: I went and pulled out my copy of OoP, and found this line, immediately after Neville's robes tear and he kicks the prophecy: It flew some ten feet to their right and smashed on the step beneath them. (Scholastic Hardbound, ch. 35, p. 804)
I would think that it would be unlikely that Neville would have been able to hear it from that distance, as Harry also could not, and they were together (Harry was trying to pull Neville up the steps).
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Choices - Sep 12, 2006 8:45 am (#1207 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We have to also take into account Neville's poor memory. Even if he heard the prophesy or part of it, he probably wouldn't remember what it said.
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painting sheila - Sep 12, 2006 6:29 pm (#1208 of 1448)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Has anyone discussed the strange memory problems Neville has? I have often wondered if he hasn't had some sort of memory charm done. Maybe he saw - or heard - something at some point that his gran thought he should forget. If he defies her and doesn't go home for the summer, but accompanies Harry to Privet Drive, than maybe his memory could start coming back. He may remember some thing that will be crucial to the ending.
It just seems like more than a personality trait to me - no one else's lacking are emphasized as much as his lack of memory.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2006 8:08 pm (#1209 of 1448)
There has been discussion on the subject of Nevile's memory on the thread in the past. The earliest I can find is here mike miller, "+ Neville Longbottom" #315, 17 Apr 2004 4:07 am.
Additionally, a brief discussion on Neville'semory occurred in a sequence of posts beginning here Nathan Zimmermann, "+ Nymphadora Tonks" #252, 17 Jun 2004 4:21 pm.
Neville's memory has also been discussed on this thread Jimmy Bell, "-- I have figured out Cornelius Fudge's dirty little secret!" #, 1 Mar 2003 11:37 pm.
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painting sheila - Sep 13, 2006 5:49 am (#1210 of 1448)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Thank you!
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Steve Newton - Mar 9, 2007 3:35 pm (#1211 of 1448)
Librarian
Pardon some meandering. I am one of the bitterenders who is not certain that Harry is The One. 80% sure.
Anyway, I see many parallels between Harry and Neville and this is sort of my first gathering together of things that they have in common. Nothing profound just putting my thoughts together.
The prophecy could have referred to either Harry or Neville
They were born a day apart
They both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions
They are both Gryffindors
They have been to the Forbidden Forest together
They have each broken their right arms while on broomsticks
They have both dated Ginny
They have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell (not sure of the spelling)
They can both see Thestrals
Snape hates both
I thought that I had another but is escapes me now. I'll add it later if I remember.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 9, 2007 5:07 pm (#1212 of 1448)
Both Harry and Neville's parents were close to Albus Dumbledore and were members of the Order of the Phoenix.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 7:38 am (#1213 of 1448)
Steve - didn't Jo shut this theory down?
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Choices - Mar 10, 2007 10:29 am (#1214 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 9, 2007 5:07 pm (#1210 of 1211) "Both Harry and Neville's parents were close to Albus Dumbledore and were members of the Order of the Phoenix."
I'm not sure we know this for certain. The Longbottoms were Aurors and worked for the Order, but I don't think we know how close they were to Dumbledore. The Potters worked for the Order, but were they that close to Dumbledore before they were earmarked for death by Voldemort? I think it was more a "we all work for the same cause" and a "headmaster to student" sort of relationship. Now, after Dumbledore helped hide them and worked with them in a more personal way, I do think they enjoyed a closer relationship with him. As for the Longbottoms, I think they were told of possible danger, but more or less took care of their own protection.
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juliebug - Mar 10, 2007 10:45 am (#1215 of 1448)
The Order of the Phoenix (in it's early days) stikes me as a fairly tight knit group. I'm not saying this is canon, but I don't think it's a big stretch to say that Dumbledore had a close relationship to the Longbottoms.
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Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 11:01 am (#1216 of 1448)
I'm not so sure about that, Choices. In PoA, Dumbledore says to Harry, "I knew your father very well, both at Hogwarts and later." Guess that could be interpreted several ways but, to me, it sounds like DD kept in very close touch with the Potters from the time they graduated on. James, at least. (And probably Lily.) Admittedly we don't know though this for sure, of course. Not at this point in time.
Anyway, this is the Neville Longbottom thread (grin) so ... Dumbledore *does* tell Harry that Neville's parents were well-liked and highly respected throughout the whole wizarding community. I don't know if we actually have any canon on their closeness with Dumbledore himself beyond that.
Laura
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Steve Newton - Mar 10, 2007 5:08 pm (#1217 of 1448)
Librarian
haymoni, JKR said something about this but I can't remember exactly what it was. My very faulty memory says that there was a certain looseness to the statement.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 7:36 pm (#1218 of 1448)
She's great at being vague, isn't she???
I'm not much of a quote quoter - I vaguely remember things. I'll see what I can dig up.
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Steve Newton - Mar 11, 2007 4:45 am (#1219 of 1448)
Librarian
She's great at being vague, isn't she???
Me, too!
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frogface - Mar 11, 2007 10:13 am (#1220 of 1448)
I'm pretty sure the Longbottom's were given as much protection as the Potter's before Harry was marked as the One. We can't know that for sure because we've only heard the details of how the Potter's were hidden, but it wouldn't make any sense for Dumbledore to put more effort into protecting one family when both boys were possibilities for being Voldemort's downfall. Closeness and personal relationships aside - not only was Neville the possible key to winning the war but he was also a child in serious danger. And I'm sure Dumbledore would never stand back and not do anything about that.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 13, 2007 3:53 am (#1221 of 1448)
I'm pretty sure the Longbottom's were given as much protection as the Potter's before Harry was marked as the One. We can't know that for sure because we've only heard the details of how the Potter's were hidden, but it wouldn't make any sense for Dumbledore to put more effort into protecting one family when both boys were possibilities for being Voldemort's downfall.
Unless Dumbledore had some further knowledge. Remember that in the Shrieking Shack Sirius said, that one of Dumbledore's spies (Snape, I assume), told him, that Voldemort was after the Potters. Why was this necessary? Dumbledore knew about the prophecy and it didn't need anyone to tell him that Harry was in danger. And if Snape is the spy, than he knew that Dumbledore knew. The one thing Dumbledore did not know for sure, is which baby is Voldemort's target, and therefore that's what the spy must have told him. Maybe therefore the Potters' get bigger safety meassures than the Longbottoms. (And I hope this is still on-topic enough for the Neville thread).
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 6:02 am (#1222 of 1448)
But we don't know at what point Dumbledore knew Voldemort had chosen Harry, and we don't know at what point Snape found out. We are told that a spy (presumably Snape) told Dumbledore that Voldemort was targetting the Potters, but we don't know whether or not he told Dumbledore that Voldemort was also targetting the Longbottoms. McGonnagal could have easily left that bit out of the story - seeing as the main focus was about how Sirius (or so it was believed) had betrayed the Potter's. Its possible she didn't even know that the Longbottoms were also possible targets - she didn't know about the Prophecy after all.
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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 13, 2007 9:14 am (#1223 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't believe that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had chosen Harry until after the attack. I am sure that he advised precautions for both the Potters and the Longbottoms. Unfortunately for Harry his parents won the lottery. The Longbottoms probably let down their guard after the attack in GH and much to their misfortune ran into the DE's a short time later.
Mickey
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 13, 2007 9:45 am (#1224 of 1448)
Yes @ frogface, I agree with this, that McGonagall could have simply left it out, that Voldie targeted the Longbottoms as well. But why was this necessary? Dumbledore knew about the prophecy and it certainly would have been easy for him to find out which children were born at the end of July (especially, since James, lily, Frank and Alice all were in the Order). Therefore Dumbledore knew probably anyway that Harry and Neville were in danger. He therefore did not need any additional information from a spy. And if the spy was Snape, he even knew, that Dumbledore knew about the prophecy. So Snape has to come to Dumbledore with some information Dumbledore didn't already possess. And the most likely seems to me that Voldmeort chose Harry and not Neville.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2007 10:33 am (#1225 of 1448)
Librarian
I noticed in the COS read a long that Trevor is roaming again. Since a basilisk is the result of a hens egg hatched by a toad I was wondering if there is any evidence that Neville might be a Parseltongue. I can't think of anything off hand but will have to reread the dueling scene in COS.
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 1:28 pm (#1226 of 1448)
Neville Longbottom you're right that it was probably easy for Dumbledore to deduce that either Harry or Neville were the best candidates to be the Chosen One. But he wouldn't have known if Voldemort knew. THAT is the information that Snape would have been able to provide him - that Voldemort has also whittled it down to either Harry or Neville.
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rambkowalczyk - Mar 13, 2007 1:35 pm (#1227 of 1448)
is any evidence that Neville might be a Parseltongue. I can't think of anything off hand but will have to reread the dueling scene in COS.
If Neville was a Parseltongue, wouldn't he have said anything to Harry in COS, after Harry talked to the snake in the duel. Neville would have known what Harry was saying to the snake and he would have defended Harry from baseless accusations. Also Neville would have heard the basilisk calling in the pipes and would have told someone wouldn't he have?
Maybe Trevor will be responsible for the birth of a new basilisk one that will be on Harry's side.
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Mudblood and Proud - Mar 20, 2007 2:45 pm (#1228 of 1448)
I don't know if this is of consequence but in OoP (page 195 UK edition) upon viewing a photo of the Order, Harry notices that Neville is the spitting image of his mother. As Harry is the spitting image of his father and has his mother’s eyes, and Neville appears to be the opposite (although no description is given of his eyes) is this further proof that Neville is not the “chosen one?” I am making a big leap here and suggesting that Harry's appearance contributes to his importance but JKR does seem to place a lot of emphasis on his physical portrayal. What would really be interesting is if we had a description of Nevilles eyes.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 20, 2007 7:47 pm (#1229 of 1448)
I think it's further proof that Neville could have been the chosen one. A random act of fate changed two boys destinies, boys that are really a lot alike.
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Catherine - Mar 21, 2007 2:57 pm (#1230 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
I think it's further proof that Neville could have been the chosen one. A random act of fate changed two boys destinies, boys that are really a lot alike.--Die Zimtzicke
I don't think it is fate. I've always read it as though it were Voldemort's choice--that he chose and that he acted.
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Hagsquid - Jul 1, 2007 7:06 pm (#1231 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Sorry. I'll read through this thread tonight at work, but I wanted to get this down.
I've just seen COS for the fifteenth time, and I've read it at least twenty. JKR said that something in the film (which must have strayed from the book) gave her "chills" when she saw it; that the readers would swear it was a "clue" added for effect.
I came up with this:
When Harry says "how did he find out?" in regards to Malfoy knowing that Harry passed out in the train. The movie doesn't tell us who told Malfoy, but the book does.
Due to this reasoning, I think Neville Longbottom will not only betray Harry, but he will also be the one who returns to Hogwarts as a teacher (after redeeming himself ala Snape.) There's also a scene in the movie where Neville declares--quite saddly--that he's "killed Harry Potter." I think it foreshadows events of the future.
The prophecy never said that both couldn't die.
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Hagsquid - Jul 1, 2007 10:12 pm (#1232 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Okay, I wrote that in a hurry, I'll clear it up a bit.
I think that in the final book, Neville will betray HRH much like Peter did, though I don't think he'll do it with quite the intent of Peter, and I think he'll regret it as Snape did--assuming Snape really did, which I'm still on the fence about.
As I said, the added scenes to--not COS as I said in my previous post, but--GoF the film made me think of this. Both of them foreshadow that Neville will betray Harry in the future.
I hope this makes more sense them my ramblings from earlier.
Oh, and on a slightly unrelated note, I think Neville will be the charactor who returns to Hogwarts... as the Herbology teacher.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2007 7:12 am (#1233 of 1448)
I don't think Neville will betray HRH intentionally. He stood up against the Crucio pretty well in OoP. He refused to leave Harry and continued to fight for him. He has as much motivation as Harry to bring down the Dark Lord and the Death Eaters. LPO
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Choices - Jul 2, 2007 8:00 am (#1234 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have to agree with LPO - I don't think for a minute that Neville will betray the trio. I think he has proved himself loyal in the past and will remain so to the end (which is near, BTW) **sob**
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Potter Ace - Jul 2, 2007 8:42 am (#1235 of 1448)
JKR has given us no reason for Neville to betray the trio. If they had ridiculed the status of his parents, or his lack of magical skill or something else, maybe, but through all the books they have kept his secrets, treated him with respect and had him join in some of the quests even.
For Neville to betray the trio would be a huge plot twist and would be something you might see in a soap opera, not in a good book.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 2, 2007 9:59 am (#1236 of 1448)
Neville's one of the good guys, through and through. His will to do the right thing, perhaps to avenge his parents, is sufficient IMO to keep him from that kind of outcome.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2007 11:50 am (#1237 of 1448)
***pats Choices on the back*** I think we are going to need a support group thread after July. I can't believe it is soon over.
I hope Neville survives. (Had to get back on topic). I admire him. He had to work through his fears and become magically talented with a lot less help. He has had a solitary journey. He didn't believe in himself and no one else believed in him. LPO
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Allison R - Jul 2, 2007 6:18 pm (#1238 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm not sure where I read this (the peril of reading too much-- I loose track of what I read where...) but I thought I had read somewhere that the thing that gave Jo thrills was when the dementors were hovering over Sirius and Harry by the lake and you can see a small ball of light hovering over Sirius' mouth as they almost completely suck out his soul and then you see the light decending again down into Sirius' mouth as the dementors are driven off by Prongs. It was something she had not written into the book but which inadvertantly foreshadowed events to come in the last part of the story.
Did I totally make that up, or has anyone else heard anything similar?
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Hagsquid - Jul 2, 2007 10:28 pm (#1239 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Everyone seemed to think Peter was a safe bet as well, and we have no ideas about what happened in his past. Could be that Neville, much like Peter, is just scared and doesn't dare to stand against Malfoy.
I'd like to see a cite on that Alison.
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Steve Newton - Jul 3, 2007 3:44 am (#1240 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville, too scared to stand against Malfoy? Neville, the personification of decisive action and almost reckless bravery? I think not.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 5:01 am (#1241 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Sorry, definately meant Voldemort. My bad.
We know he's gone after Malfoy at least once.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 3, 2007 6:21 am (#1242 of 1448)
I think Neville's the type to know exactly what his actions will cost (with the example of his parents in front of him) but going ahead and doing the right thing anywat. After all, he *is* a Gryffendor.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 9:00 am (#1243 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
As was Peter. . . So similar aren't they?
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Choices - Jul 3, 2007 10:13 am (#1244 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Allison, I think JKR made the comment that there was something in the movie POA that gave her chill bumps that was not in the book. There has been much speculation as to what it might be - my personal guess is that it is the scene after they come out of the Shrieking Shack where Snape stands in front of the kids to protect them from werewolf Lupin. Others think it might be where Buckbeak protects Harry and Hermione from werewolf Lupin - foreshadowing the scene in HBP were Buckbeak attacks Snape to protect Harry. I hope we find out what it really was that gave JKR chills.
Oh, sorry. This is the Neville thread, isn't it! I love Neville. I think he is turning into an awesome wizard and I expect great things from him. I expect he will become Professor Longbottom, Hogwarts Herbology teacher.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 3:31 pm (#1245 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Allison, I think JKR made the comment that there was something in the movie POA that gave her chill bumps that was not in the book. There has been much speculation as to what it might be - my personal guess is that it is the scene after they come out of the Shrieking Shack where Snape stands in front of the kids to protect them from werewolf Lupin. Others think it might be where Buckbeak protects Harry and Hermione from werewolf Lupin - foreshadowing the scene in HBP were Buckbeak attacks Snape to protect Harry. I hope we find out what it really was that gave JKR chills.
I wish I could find the original quote, but it seems like she says that she has not yet seen GoF, but is certain that it will be just as good. This suggests that GoF was finished (or nearly) so she probably said that *after* HBP came out.
Which, of course, takes me back to "who told [Malfoy]" about Harry passing out on the train. Setting up a friendship between Nevelle and Malfoy.
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Allison R - Jul 3, 2007 3:42 pm (#1246 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Neville's come so far in the series! We were talking about it the other day while listening to (audio) book 5. It's made me so sad for him throughout the series when he makes comments like how his Gran tells him he hasn't got his dad's talent, or that she sees Charms as a "soft" option after his OWLs, stuff like that. It seems that Neville is always being told he doesn't measure up to someone else's standards. It made us want to cheer when Prof. MacGonnigal was going over his schedule with him and told him that she would send an owl to his Gran and inform her that "just because [his gran] failed HER charms OWL doesn't mean it's not a perfectly worthy subject" or words to that effect.
I think that HRH's friendship has really helped him develop and come out of his shell and sort of 'find himself'. Especially since the MoM fight when his dad's old wand was broken and he finally got his OWN wand (after all, Olivander says it's the wand that chooses the wizard, right? He's never going to get as good results using someone else's wand) and discovered that he really is quite a capable young wizard after all that he's really going to come into his own in book 7.
(with a nod again to Olivander) I expect great things from him!
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Choices - Jul 3, 2007 5:19 pm (#1247 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hagsquid - "Which, of course, takes me back to "who told [Malfoy]" about Harry passing out on the train. Setting up a friendship between Nevelle and Malfoy."
It is entirely possible that Draco simply overheard Neville telling someone, or a group of people, about what happened on the train. Nowhere does it say that Neville sought out Draco (or vice versa) and imparted this information. There isn't even a remote hint about Neville being friends with Draco. We know from 6 books, that Slytherins and Gryffindors do not become friends. We have not seen one instance of such a friendship. Not in a million years would I believe that Draco and Neville would become pals.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 9:54 pm (#1248 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Which is *exactly* what I thought when I read the book. When I saw the movie, I thought nothing of it. When I heard the quote by JKR (really wish I could find the cite for it) that there was something that the ?director? did, rather by accident, which foreshadowed events to come... I decided to watch the show again to look for something that would "give me chills."
This was the part that stuck out. IF the theory is true (and I'm not saying that I believe that it is, just that it's a possibility) then it would be something that I would have sworn they added into the movie to offer a clue of things to come.
Or JKR was just trying to increase movie ticket sales. Wouldn't put it past her.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 4, 2007 6:00 am (#1249 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Or JKR was just trying to increase movie ticket sales. Wouldn't put it past her."
With the money JKR already has, I really doubt that...
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Chemyst - Jul 4, 2007 6:23 am (#1250 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Hagsquid, how about this quote & source:
In an interview released by Warner Bros. in 2004, JKR said that in The Prisoner of Azkaban, Alfonso Cuaron inadvertently foreshadowed events that will happen in books six and seven. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling said.
I found the above in a search of a recent poll right here on the HP Lexicon Forum. It's interesting that there is more than one.
The Accio Quote text is HERE.
Jo Rowling: Alfonso had good intuition about what would and wouldn't work. He's put things in the film that, without knowing it, foreshadow things that are going to happen in the final two books. So I really got goosebumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought people are going to look back on the film and think those were put in deliberately as clues.
I have no clue as to whether the goosebumps were Neville-related.
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Librarian
Neville has a history of being pretty close mouthed. He went years without telling anyone at school about his parents. I think that he would keep silent about this to protect Harry. More thought needed, though.
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Meoshimo - Sep 11, 2006 4:03 pm (#1202 of 1448)
Hmm, Neville went years without telling people about his parents because he didn't want to get teased for having crazy parents. If it was too loud for Harry to hear the prophecy once it broke, then I'm sure it was too loud for Neville to hear as well.
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Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2006 4:35 pm (#1203 of 1448)
Librarian
But, as I recall it, Neville was near the bottom of the whatever it was and, so, nearer to the Prophecy.
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Meoshimo - Sep 11, 2006 4:38 pm (#1204 of 1448)
Possible, but my gut tells me that he didn't hear it. I wish I could give my reasons by way of quotes from Neville about the smashing of the Prophecy, but I don't have copies of the books.
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Choices - Sep 11, 2006 5:11 pm (#1205 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it is a possiblility that Neville did hear the prophesy, but could he understand it all in just one hearing, under very difficult and distracting circumstances? I think of all the times I have read it trying to understand just what it means - still haven't figured it out, either. LOL
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Mediwitch - Sep 11, 2006 5:47 pm (#1206 of 1448)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
"We never heard a prophecy," said Neville, turning geranium pink as he said it." (Scholastic Hardbound, ch. 7, p. 146)
I'm not sure this really clears it up. Neville is probably turning pink because he is lying, but there are a couple of possible interpretations of that statement: (1) He is claiming there was no prophecy to hear, or (2) He couldn't hear it over the noise so although he "heard" a voice he was unable to distinguish the words. Obviously, he wants Slughorn to think the 1st, but readers can't really rule out the second based on the text.
EDIT: I went and pulled out my copy of OoP, and found this line, immediately after Neville's robes tear and he kicks the prophecy: It flew some ten feet to their right and smashed on the step beneath them. (Scholastic Hardbound, ch. 35, p. 804)
I would think that it would be unlikely that Neville would have been able to hear it from that distance, as Harry also could not, and they were together (Harry was trying to pull Neville up the steps).
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Choices - Sep 12, 2006 8:45 am (#1207 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We have to also take into account Neville's poor memory. Even if he heard the prophesy or part of it, he probably wouldn't remember what it said.
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painting sheila - Sep 12, 2006 6:29 pm (#1208 of 1448)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Has anyone discussed the strange memory problems Neville has? I have often wondered if he hasn't had some sort of memory charm done. Maybe he saw - or heard - something at some point that his gran thought he should forget. If he defies her and doesn't go home for the summer, but accompanies Harry to Privet Drive, than maybe his memory could start coming back. He may remember some thing that will be crucial to the ending.
It just seems like more than a personality trait to me - no one else's lacking are emphasized as much as his lack of memory.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2006 8:08 pm (#1209 of 1448)
There has been discussion on the subject of Nevile's memory on the thread in the past. The earliest I can find is here mike miller, "+ Neville Longbottom" #315, 17 Apr 2004 4:07 am.
Additionally, a brief discussion on Neville'semory occurred in a sequence of posts beginning here Nathan Zimmermann, "+ Nymphadora Tonks" #252, 17 Jun 2004 4:21 pm.
Neville's memory has also been discussed on this thread Jimmy Bell, "-- I have figured out Cornelius Fudge's dirty little secret!" #, 1 Mar 2003 11:37 pm.
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painting sheila - Sep 13, 2006 5:49 am (#1210 of 1448)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Thank you!
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Steve Newton - Mar 9, 2007 3:35 pm (#1211 of 1448)
Librarian
Pardon some meandering. I am one of the bitterenders who is not certain that Harry is The One. 80% sure.
Anyway, I see many parallels between Harry and Neville and this is sort of my first gathering together of things that they have in common. Nothing profound just putting my thoughts together.
The prophecy could have referred to either Harry or Neville
They were born a day apart
They both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions
They are both Gryffindors
They have been to the Forbidden Forest together
They have each broken their right arms while on broomsticks
They have both dated Ginny
They have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell (not sure of the spelling)
They can both see Thestrals
Snape hates both
I thought that I had another but is escapes me now. I'll add it later if I remember.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 9, 2007 5:07 pm (#1212 of 1448)
Both Harry and Neville's parents were close to Albus Dumbledore and were members of the Order of the Phoenix.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 7:38 am (#1213 of 1448)
Steve - didn't Jo shut this theory down?
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Choices - Mar 10, 2007 10:29 am (#1214 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 9, 2007 5:07 pm (#1210 of 1211) "Both Harry and Neville's parents were close to Albus Dumbledore and were members of the Order of the Phoenix."
I'm not sure we know this for certain. The Longbottoms were Aurors and worked for the Order, but I don't think we know how close they were to Dumbledore. The Potters worked for the Order, but were they that close to Dumbledore before they were earmarked for death by Voldemort? I think it was more a "we all work for the same cause" and a "headmaster to student" sort of relationship. Now, after Dumbledore helped hide them and worked with them in a more personal way, I do think they enjoyed a closer relationship with him. As for the Longbottoms, I think they were told of possible danger, but more or less took care of their own protection.
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juliebug - Mar 10, 2007 10:45 am (#1215 of 1448)
The Order of the Phoenix (in it's early days) stikes me as a fairly tight knit group. I'm not saying this is canon, but I don't think it's a big stretch to say that Dumbledore had a close relationship to the Longbottoms.
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Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 11:01 am (#1216 of 1448)
I'm not so sure about that, Choices. In PoA, Dumbledore says to Harry, "I knew your father very well, both at Hogwarts and later." Guess that could be interpreted several ways but, to me, it sounds like DD kept in very close touch with the Potters from the time they graduated on. James, at least. (And probably Lily.) Admittedly we don't know though this for sure, of course. Not at this point in time.
Anyway, this is the Neville Longbottom thread (grin) so ... Dumbledore *does* tell Harry that Neville's parents were well-liked and highly respected throughout the whole wizarding community. I don't know if we actually have any canon on their closeness with Dumbledore himself beyond that.
Laura
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Steve Newton - Mar 10, 2007 5:08 pm (#1217 of 1448)
Librarian
haymoni, JKR said something about this but I can't remember exactly what it was. My very faulty memory says that there was a certain looseness to the statement.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 7:36 pm (#1218 of 1448)
She's great at being vague, isn't she???
I'm not much of a quote quoter - I vaguely remember things. I'll see what I can dig up.
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Steve Newton - Mar 11, 2007 4:45 am (#1219 of 1448)
Librarian
She's great at being vague, isn't she???
Me, too!
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frogface - Mar 11, 2007 10:13 am (#1220 of 1448)
I'm pretty sure the Longbottom's were given as much protection as the Potter's before Harry was marked as the One. We can't know that for sure because we've only heard the details of how the Potter's were hidden, but it wouldn't make any sense for Dumbledore to put more effort into protecting one family when both boys were possibilities for being Voldemort's downfall. Closeness and personal relationships aside - not only was Neville the possible key to winning the war but he was also a child in serious danger. And I'm sure Dumbledore would never stand back and not do anything about that.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 13, 2007 3:53 am (#1221 of 1448)
I'm pretty sure the Longbottom's were given as much protection as the Potter's before Harry was marked as the One. We can't know that for sure because we've only heard the details of how the Potter's were hidden, but it wouldn't make any sense for Dumbledore to put more effort into protecting one family when both boys were possibilities for being Voldemort's downfall.
Unless Dumbledore had some further knowledge. Remember that in the Shrieking Shack Sirius said, that one of Dumbledore's spies (Snape, I assume), told him, that Voldemort was after the Potters. Why was this necessary? Dumbledore knew about the prophecy and it didn't need anyone to tell him that Harry was in danger. And if Snape is the spy, than he knew that Dumbledore knew. The one thing Dumbledore did not know for sure, is which baby is Voldemort's target, and therefore that's what the spy must have told him. Maybe therefore the Potters' get bigger safety meassures than the Longbottoms. (And I hope this is still on-topic enough for the Neville thread).
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 6:02 am (#1222 of 1448)
But we don't know at what point Dumbledore knew Voldemort had chosen Harry, and we don't know at what point Snape found out. We are told that a spy (presumably Snape) told Dumbledore that Voldemort was targetting the Potters, but we don't know whether or not he told Dumbledore that Voldemort was also targetting the Longbottoms. McGonnagal could have easily left that bit out of the story - seeing as the main focus was about how Sirius (or so it was believed) had betrayed the Potter's. Its possible she didn't even know that the Longbottoms were also possible targets - she didn't know about the Prophecy after all.
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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 13, 2007 9:14 am (#1223 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't believe that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had chosen Harry until after the attack. I am sure that he advised precautions for both the Potters and the Longbottoms. Unfortunately for Harry his parents won the lottery. The Longbottoms probably let down their guard after the attack in GH and much to their misfortune ran into the DE's a short time later.
Mickey
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 13, 2007 9:45 am (#1224 of 1448)
Yes @ frogface, I agree with this, that McGonagall could have simply left it out, that Voldie targeted the Longbottoms as well. But why was this necessary? Dumbledore knew about the prophecy and it certainly would have been easy for him to find out which children were born at the end of July (especially, since James, lily, Frank and Alice all were in the Order). Therefore Dumbledore knew probably anyway that Harry and Neville were in danger. He therefore did not need any additional information from a spy. And if the spy was Snape, he even knew, that Dumbledore knew about the prophecy. So Snape has to come to Dumbledore with some information Dumbledore didn't already possess. And the most likely seems to me that Voldmeort chose Harry and not Neville.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2007 10:33 am (#1225 of 1448)
Librarian
I noticed in the COS read a long that Trevor is roaming again. Since a basilisk is the result of a hens egg hatched by a toad I was wondering if there is any evidence that Neville might be a Parseltongue. I can't think of anything off hand but will have to reread the dueling scene in COS.
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 1:28 pm (#1226 of 1448)
Neville Longbottom you're right that it was probably easy for Dumbledore to deduce that either Harry or Neville were the best candidates to be the Chosen One. But he wouldn't have known if Voldemort knew. THAT is the information that Snape would have been able to provide him - that Voldemort has also whittled it down to either Harry or Neville.
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rambkowalczyk - Mar 13, 2007 1:35 pm (#1227 of 1448)
is any evidence that Neville might be a Parseltongue. I can't think of anything off hand but will have to reread the dueling scene in COS.
If Neville was a Parseltongue, wouldn't he have said anything to Harry in COS, after Harry talked to the snake in the duel. Neville would have known what Harry was saying to the snake and he would have defended Harry from baseless accusations. Also Neville would have heard the basilisk calling in the pipes and would have told someone wouldn't he have?
Maybe Trevor will be responsible for the birth of a new basilisk one that will be on Harry's side.
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Mudblood and Proud - Mar 20, 2007 2:45 pm (#1228 of 1448)
I don't know if this is of consequence but in OoP (page 195 UK edition) upon viewing a photo of the Order, Harry notices that Neville is the spitting image of his mother. As Harry is the spitting image of his father and has his mother’s eyes, and Neville appears to be the opposite (although no description is given of his eyes) is this further proof that Neville is not the “chosen one?” I am making a big leap here and suggesting that Harry's appearance contributes to his importance but JKR does seem to place a lot of emphasis on his physical portrayal. What would really be interesting is if we had a description of Nevilles eyes.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 20, 2007 7:47 pm (#1229 of 1448)
I think it's further proof that Neville could have been the chosen one. A random act of fate changed two boys destinies, boys that are really a lot alike.
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Catherine - Mar 21, 2007 2:57 pm (#1230 of 1448)
Canon Seeker
I think it's further proof that Neville could have been the chosen one. A random act of fate changed two boys destinies, boys that are really a lot alike.--Die Zimtzicke
I don't think it is fate. I've always read it as though it were Voldemort's choice--that he chose and that he acted.
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Hagsquid - Jul 1, 2007 7:06 pm (#1231 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Sorry. I'll read through this thread tonight at work, but I wanted to get this down.
I've just seen COS for the fifteenth time, and I've read it at least twenty. JKR said that something in the film (which must have strayed from the book) gave her "chills" when she saw it; that the readers would swear it was a "clue" added for effect.
I came up with this:
When Harry says "how did he find out?" in regards to Malfoy knowing that Harry passed out in the train. The movie doesn't tell us who told Malfoy, but the book does.
Due to this reasoning, I think Neville Longbottom will not only betray Harry, but he will also be the one who returns to Hogwarts as a teacher (after redeeming himself ala Snape.) There's also a scene in the movie where Neville declares--quite saddly--that he's "killed Harry Potter." I think it foreshadows events of the future.
The prophecy never said that both couldn't die.
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Hagsquid - Jul 1, 2007 10:12 pm (#1232 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Okay, I wrote that in a hurry, I'll clear it up a bit.
I think that in the final book, Neville will betray HRH much like Peter did, though I don't think he'll do it with quite the intent of Peter, and I think he'll regret it as Snape did--assuming Snape really did, which I'm still on the fence about.
As I said, the added scenes to--not COS as I said in my previous post, but--GoF the film made me think of this. Both of them foreshadow that Neville will betray Harry in the future.
I hope this makes more sense them my ramblings from earlier.
Oh, and on a slightly unrelated note, I think Neville will be the charactor who returns to Hogwarts... as the Herbology teacher.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2007 7:12 am (#1233 of 1448)
I don't think Neville will betray HRH intentionally. He stood up against the Crucio pretty well in OoP. He refused to leave Harry and continued to fight for him. He has as much motivation as Harry to bring down the Dark Lord and the Death Eaters. LPO
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Choices - Jul 2, 2007 8:00 am (#1234 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have to agree with LPO - I don't think for a minute that Neville will betray the trio. I think he has proved himself loyal in the past and will remain so to the end (which is near, BTW) **sob**
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Potter Ace - Jul 2, 2007 8:42 am (#1235 of 1448)
JKR has given us no reason for Neville to betray the trio. If they had ridiculed the status of his parents, or his lack of magical skill or something else, maybe, but through all the books they have kept his secrets, treated him with respect and had him join in some of the quests even.
For Neville to betray the trio would be a huge plot twist and would be something you might see in a soap opera, not in a good book.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 2, 2007 9:59 am (#1236 of 1448)
Neville's one of the good guys, through and through. His will to do the right thing, perhaps to avenge his parents, is sufficient IMO to keep him from that kind of outcome.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2007 11:50 am (#1237 of 1448)
***pats Choices on the back*** I think we are going to need a support group thread after July. I can't believe it is soon over.
I hope Neville survives. (Had to get back on topic). I admire him. He had to work through his fears and become magically talented with a lot less help. He has had a solitary journey. He didn't believe in himself and no one else believed in him. LPO
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Allison R - Jul 2, 2007 6:18 pm (#1238 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm not sure where I read this (the peril of reading too much-- I loose track of what I read where...) but I thought I had read somewhere that the thing that gave Jo thrills was when the dementors were hovering over Sirius and Harry by the lake and you can see a small ball of light hovering over Sirius' mouth as they almost completely suck out his soul and then you see the light decending again down into Sirius' mouth as the dementors are driven off by Prongs. It was something she had not written into the book but which inadvertantly foreshadowed events to come in the last part of the story.
Did I totally make that up, or has anyone else heard anything similar?
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Hagsquid - Jul 2, 2007 10:28 pm (#1239 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Everyone seemed to think Peter was a safe bet as well, and we have no ideas about what happened in his past. Could be that Neville, much like Peter, is just scared and doesn't dare to stand against Malfoy.
I'd like to see a cite on that Alison.
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Steve Newton - Jul 3, 2007 3:44 am (#1240 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville, too scared to stand against Malfoy? Neville, the personification of decisive action and almost reckless bravery? I think not.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 5:01 am (#1241 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Sorry, definately meant Voldemort. My bad.
We know he's gone after Malfoy at least once.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 3, 2007 6:21 am (#1242 of 1448)
I think Neville's the type to know exactly what his actions will cost (with the example of his parents in front of him) but going ahead and doing the right thing anywat. After all, he *is* a Gryffendor.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 9:00 am (#1243 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
As was Peter. . . So similar aren't they?
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Choices - Jul 3, 2007 10:13 am (#1244 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Allison, I think JKR made the comment that there was something in the movie POA that gave her chill bumps that was not in the book. There has been much speculation as to what it might be - my personal guess is that it is the scene after they come out of the Shrieking Shack where Snape stands in front of the kids to protect them from werewolf Lupin. Others think it might be where Buckbeak protects Harry and Hermione from werewolf Lupin - foreshadowing the scene in HBP were Buckbeak attacks Snape to protect Harry. I hope we find out what it really was that gave JKR chills.
Oh, sorry. This is the Neville thread, isn't it! I love Neville. I think he is turning into an awesome wizard and I expect great things from him. I expect he will become Professor Longbottom, Hogwarts Herbology teacher.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 3:31 pm (#1245 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Allison, I think JKR made the comment that there was something in the movie POA that gave her chill bumps that was not in the book. There has been much speculation as to what it might be - my personal guess is that it is the scene after they come out of the Shrieking Shack where Snape stands in front of the kids to protect them from werewolf Lupin. Others think it might be where Buckbeak protects Harry and Hermione from werewolf Lupin - foreshadowing the scene in HBP were Buckbeak attacks Snape to protect Harry. I hope we find out what it really was that gave JKR chills.
I wish I could find the original quote, but it seems like she says that she has not yet seen GoF, but is certain that it will be just as good. This suggests that GoF was finished (or nearly) so she probably said that *after* HBP came out.
Which, of course, takes me back to "who told [Malfoy]" about Harry passing out on the train. Setting up a friendship between Nevelle and Malfoy.
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Allison R - Jul 3, 2007 3:42 pm (#1246 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Neville's come so far in the series! We were talking about it the other day while listening to (audio) book 5. It's made me so sad for him throughout the series when he makes comments like how his Gran tells him he hasn't got his dad's talent, or that she sees Charms as a "soft" option after his OWLs, stuff like that. It seems that Neville is always being told he doesn't measure up to someone else's standards. It made us want to cheer when Prof. MacGonnigal was going over his schedule with him and told him that she would send an owl to his Gran and inform her that "just because [his gran] failed HER charms OWL doesn't mean it's not a perfectly worthy subject" or words to that effect.
I think that HRH's friendship has really helped him develop and come out of his shell and sort of 'find himself'. Especially since the MoM fight when his dad's old wand was broken and he finally got his OWN wand (after all, Olivander says it's the wand that chooses the wizard, right? He's never going to get as good results using someone else's wand) and discovered that he really is quite a capable young wizard after all that he's really going to come into his own in book 7.
(with a nod again to Olivander) I expect great things from him!
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Choices - Jul 3, 2007 5:19 pm (#1247 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hagsquid - "Which, of course, takes me back to "who told [Malfoy]" about Harry passing out on the train. Setting up a friendship between Nevelle and Malfoy."
It is entirely possible that Draco simply overheard Neville telling someone, or a group of people, about what happened on the train. Nowhere does it say that Neville sought out Draco (or vice versa) and imparted this information. There isn't even a remote hint about Neville being friends with Draco. We know from 6 books, that Slytherins and Gryffindors do not become friends. We have not seen one instance of such a friendship. Not in a million years would I believe that Draco and Neville would become pals.
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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 9:54 pm (#1248 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Which is *exactly* what I thought when I read the book. When I saw the movie, I thought nothing of it. When I heard the quote by JKR (really wish I could find the cite for it) that there was something that the ?director? did, rather by accident, which foreshadowed events to come... I decided to watch the show again to look for something that would "give me chills."
This was the part that stuck out. IF the theory is true (and I'm not saying that I believe that it is, just that it's a possibility) then it would be something that I would have sworn they added into the movie to offer a clue of things to come.
Or JKR was just trying to increase movie ticket sales. Wouldn't put it past her.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 4, 2007 6:00 am (#1249 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Or JKR was just trying to increase movie ticket sales. Wouldn't put it past her.
" With the money JKR already has, I really doubt that...
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Chemyst - Jul 4, 2007 6:23 am (#1250 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Hagsquid, how about this quote & source:
In an interview released by Warner Bros. in 2004, JKR said that in The Prisoner of Azkaban, Alfonso Cuaron inadvertently foreshadowed events that will happen in books six and seven. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling said.
I found the above in a search of a recent poll right here on the HP Lexicon Forum. It's interesting that there is more than one.
The Accio Quote text is HERE.
Jo Rowling: Alfonso had good intuition about what would and wouldn't work. He's put things in the film that, without knowing it, foreshadow things that are going to happen in the final two books. So I really got goosebumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought people are going to look back on the film and think those were put in deliberately as clues.
I have no clue as to whether the goosebumps were Neville-related.
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Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:25 am (#1251 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Yup, that's the quote.
So far, I've narrowed it down to a few ideas.
1. Neville Betrays Harry.
2. Ron is an animagi Lion.
3. Buckbeak protecting the trio from Lupin.
I like all three ideas to be honest.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 4, 2007 12:27 pm (#1252 of 1448)
I think it's either:
a) Draco howling like a werewolf.
b) Snape standing in front of the kids to protect them.
c) Hogwarts getting locked down in the face of an expected attack.
None of which I admit, have to do with Neville. I don't think he would betray Harry intentionally. Maybe he could be confused or tricked into it, but not intentionally.
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Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 12:47 pm (#1253 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Wow. There was a lot added to the movie that wasn't in the book. Mayhap this is a fruitless endevour.
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Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 2:09 pm (#1254 of 1448)
Librarian
I once tried to watch POA, the movie, and keep track of what the surprising thing could be. I was running about 1 a minute when I gave up. I agree, this is a fruitless endeavor.
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Choices - Jul 4, 2007 5:47 pm (#1255 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Die Z - I like your choices. The Draco one I had not thought about. Very good!
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2007 6:47 pm (#1256 of 1448)
I think it is sad that the Death Eaters break out from jail is what really motivated Neville in the DA. We saw a glimmer of Neville showing bravery in PS/SS when he stood up to HRH. One scene in the books that touches me the most is when Neville sees everyone at St. Mungos. LPO
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totyle - Jul 4, 2007 7:00 pm (#1257 of 1448)
Yes..that scene in OotP was very touching. And his Gran is an absolute tyrant..I couldnt believe even there she had to belittle Neville in front of his friends. I couldve smacked her with her own stuffed vulture for that. Just shows what poor Neville had to put up growing up with her.
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Allison R - Jul 4, 2007 7:35 pm (#1258 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
You know, it's not even on the same scale of damage or intent, but it reminds me of the constant bullying and belittling and terrorizing that Marvelo Gaunt inflicted on Merope. It's that constant chipping away of self esteem and negative self-image being reinforced...
I get the impression that HRH's friendship was one of the first relationships that contradicted all that for Neville. It would be hard enough growing up without parents, but to have your caregiver inflict that kind of damage would just make things ten times worse.
Hmm, I guess the Dursely's would be another fine example of inflicting the same type of damage. JK Rowling's got a real theme going here, doesn't she?
Maybe it's all back to Dumbledore's "it's our choices that define who we are, and not our abilities", doesn't it?
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 4, 2007 7:40 pm (#1259 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Not as bad as what Harry had to put up with.
Mickey
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2007 7:47 pm (#1260 of 1448)
I agree Allison. I think there is a couple themes. Neville and Harry are constantly degraded and Dudley. and Draco are spoiled rotten.
I think Neville's Gran is a bit old to be raising a child. He must share things with her because she knew his friends and appreciated how much Hermione helped him. Her comment about him being a good boy but not very talented breaks my heart. In GoF when Harry finds out about Neville's parents he wonders why he never asked Neville about his family. Neville is invisible in many ways. LPO
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M A Grimmett - Jul 5, 2007 6:11 am (#1261 of 1448)
It's not just Neville's Gran--all his relations seemed to treat him like a slightly retarded pet.--Remember his Uncle, who dropped him out the window? There is something seriously wrong with that family.
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Choices - Jul 5, 2007 8:34 am (#1262 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have always wondered if Neville's Gran is a mean, spiteful old woman or is she just from another era where children were less "spoiled" and pampered? Is she just a strict, "no-nonsense" type of person, or does she purposely try to hurt and belittle Neville? I try to give Gran the benefit of the doubt and think that she is doing the best she knows how with Neville - she is older and perhaps from a strict background, and she has had some sorrows in her life stemming from what happened to her only son and his wife.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2007 9:00 am (#1263 of 1448)
I don't think she is mean spirited like Snape or the Dursleys. She commands a certain amount of respect in the wizarding community. I'm not a parent but it seems to me most grandparents look for their child in the grandchild. I think Gran is a bit disappointed in not seeing more of her son in Neville.
The relations aren't a good example either! LPO
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Choices - Jul 5, 2007 9:05 am (#1264 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You made me remember that McGonagall seemed to know Neville's Gran quite well - perhaps they were friends in school. They seem to be cut from the same cloth. McGonagall is a strict, no-nonsense teacher and probably the same in her personal life - much like Gran. You bring up a good point, LPO, that Gran is respected in the wizarding community.
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journeymom - Jul 5, 2007 9:06 am (#1265 of 1448)
Choices, I'm with you on this one. I don't think we're supposed to put Gran in the same category with the Dursleys. We should contrast them. Gran is harsh and has unreasonably high expectations of Neville, but she doesn't loath him like the Dursleys do Harry. I think she cares for him, she's glad he's a Longbottom. LPO is right, she's too old to be raising Neville. I think we can contrast her with Lucius Malfoy, too. Like Gran, Lucius is imperious, but in a racial way, while Gran is proud to be a Dumbledore supporter.
I think Uncle Algie dropping baby Neville out a window (wasn't it sort of accidental?) is just ludicrous, but JKR intends it to be funny. There are a few things she intends to be funny that I think are kind of horrible, but oh well!
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2007 11:50 am (#1266 of 1448)
but JKR intends it to be funny. There are a few things she intends to be funny that I think are kind of horrible, but oh well! Journeymom
There is a slapstick nature to Jo's humor that I sometimes have to remind myself about. LPO
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2007 2:21 pm (#1267 of 1448)
Gran Longbottom seems very Victoriran, when children were seen and not heard, and you told the kids not to be crybabies, and to buck up and forge on for duty and humanity.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 6, 2007 7:46 am (#1268 of 1448)
Yeah, she does seem very Victorian. She does seem cruel to Neville--in an off-hand sort of way. She's so fixated on her son (treats his wife as something of annoyance) that she compares Neville to him almost unmercifully. Anybody who is treated that way is going to have self-esteem problems, and Neville has had it in spades. What's given him boosts up have been his excellence in Herbology, and Harry treating him like a friend (and I think, after the Ministry incident) an equal.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 6, 2007 3:11 pm (#1269 of 1448)
@ Azkaban movie: JKR said, that something Cuaron *added* to the movie gave her goosebumps. As far as I remember, no scene with Neville talking to Malfoy was added. If anything, the fact how Malfoy learned about Harry's breakdown was left out of the movie. Therefore I don't think she could have meant anything regarding Neville's "friendship" with Malfoy. There wasn't even the tiniest hint for this in the movie. Personally, I think it was either Snape protecting the Trio, or the students chattering about falling off the Astronomy Tower.
And also, please don't take it personally Hagssquid, but I honestly wonder, how people can think Neville can be intimated that easily. He was willing to let himself tortured by the very same Death Eater, who drove his parents into madness. If this isn't some real bravery, than I really don't know, what is. Also, Wormatail always hid behind his friends, and that's exactly what Neville never did.
(And now I'm finishing this post really relieved, that there will only be two more weeks, until all the *Neville is like Wormtail* theories are finally going to the bin, where they belong at the latest since the release of OotP, if not much earlier).
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 6, 2007 3:48 pm (#1270 of 1448)
"You're worth twelve of Malfoy", Harry said. "The Sorting Hat chose your for Gryffindor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin." SS p. 218 Scholastic Hardbound. Neville proved his bravery by taking on Crabbe and Goyle at the Quidditch match and facing down HRH as Dumbledore said: "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends." p. 306 of said book.
I agree Neville. I'm looking forward to the "Neville is like Wormtail" theories being chucked in the bin. LPO
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Hagsquid - Jul 7, 2007 11:06 pm (#1271 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
yeah.... that was my point.
In the movie, Harry asks "How did [Malfoy] find out" when Malfoy asks Harry if it's true that he passed out on the train.
Someone watching only the movie, would be left wondering how Malfoy found out. Someone who knows the books would know how he found out.
Could give JKR chills if Neville was meant to betray Harry. See my point?
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 9, 2007 5:12 pm (#1272 of 1448)
I may be wrong about a lot of things, but I'm absolutely certain that Neville is NOT going to betray Harry. Neville is not analogous to Wormtail. Wormtail was a suck-up, a fawning sycophant, such people are usually self-interested, and likely to falter in their loyalty when put to the test. They seek favor, not friendship. They are all humility in their devotion to someone greater than themselves, but they hope that persons greatness will rub off on themselves, and that they will share in his perquisites.
Neville, in contrast, is artless in his friendship for Harry. He admires and respects Harry, but he is not obsequious or ostentatious in his admiration. He serves the D.A. not to curry favor, but because he knows it is the right thing to do. He even stands up to Harry when he believes that is the right thing to do.
I fear that Neville will attempt more than he can handle, possibly by trying to take on LV directly in the mistaken belief that he is the chosen one in the prophecy. But I have no fear at all that he will prove coward or traitor.
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Choices - Jul 9, 2007 5:19 pm (#1273 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Bravo **claps madly** Well said, Vox.
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Soul Search - Jul 9, 2007 5:25 pm (#1274 of 1448)
Vox Gerbilis,
Well expressed. I agree. (Although I did have to look up perquisite. New word for me. Thanks.)
I also agree with your fear that Neville did hear the prophecy and may do something heroic, but tragically stupid.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 9, 2007 7:26 pm (#1275 of 1448)
Congratulations to Vox. That was one of the best posts about Neville that I have ever read. Truly awesome and to the point. Neville has a personal stake in this. Of course he knows it's the right thing to do. And I'm not ruling out that someone may trick him into making a mistake, but he would not intentionally betray the cause that gives him his one hope to resolve his past and have a future.
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journeymom - Jul 9, 2007 10:26 pm (#1276 of 1448)
Yes! Sorry, but I've been avoiding Neville's thread here because I so strongly object to the idea that Neville would betray Harry.
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Steve Newton - Jul 10, 2007 3:37 am (#1277 of 1448)
Librarian
Vox, I agree with you. Unfortunately, its Neville's willingness to take on more than he might be able which makes me think that he won't be with us at the end of DH.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 10, 2007 6:27 am (#1278 of 1448)
Well said, Vox!!!!!!!
If the worse happens, maybe his grandmother will finally approve of him.
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Joanna Lupin - Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am (#1279 of 1448)
Isn't it typical? We see the truth worth of people only when they're gone... Oh, I hope Neville makes it through to the end and becomes herbology teacher... *sobs*
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 10, 2007 9:45 am (#1280 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"I fear that Neville will attempt more than he can handle, possibly by trying to take on LV directly in the mistaken belief that he is the chosen one in the prophecy. But I have no fear at all that he will prove coward or traitor."
Myself, I feel the opposite, I think he will neither prove coward nor traitor, I think he will dig deep, find the real thing of his worth, he'll be tried, and come out ahead.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2007 11:53 am (#1281 of 1448)
I agree TBE. Neville is a true Gryffindor. LPO
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legolas returns - Jul 10, 2007 11:59 am (#1282 of 1448)
He told Harry not to give the prophosy to Lucius Malfoy. Thats the hard rather than easy way. Good choice Nevile!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 11, 2007 1:10 pm (#1283 of 1448)
Even if Neville finds out what the prophesy was about, he'd know that Harry is the chosen one.
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The Viking - Jul 16, 2007 12:48 am (#1284 of 1448)
I do carry a grudge against Augusta Longbottom. She has never loved Neville as an unique individual with his own life, abilities and weaknesses, but has more or less considered him a replacement for her lost son. While she did not intended do be cruel or abusive, she has in fact been so.
In the DoM battle Neille did fight bravely, but not very skillfull. I hope that his final contribution to the cause is not suddenly turning into a great warrior, but more in supplying herbolgy knowlegde or acting like a medic or something like it.
I want him to be recogniced for what he is, not for finally turning into a replacement for his dad.
I also have considered the possibilty that Neville will follow in his dads path to the extent of dying or being permanetly disabled on the battlefied, fullfilling Augustas wish a bit more than she would have wanted.
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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 3:02 am (#1285 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I keep waiting for the "Neville is Dobby" theories to crop out now that I've seen the second movie. ^^
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M A Grimmett - Jul 16, 2007 6:21 am (#1286 of 1448)
Excellent post, Viking. My thoughts exactly. No one can doubt Neville's courage.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 16, 2007 9:05 am (#1287 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
His grandmother has an elevated view of her son and his wife due to the injuries they sustained in the war with Voldemort. No matter how good Neville had been he never would have achieved his fathers pedestal in my view.
Mickey
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 19, 2007 6:40 am (#1288 of 1448)
After re-reading OoP I thought it odd that Neville is the one that accidently destroys the prophecy. It could have been about him. He is always there with Harry. I think he will have an important role. I agree Mickey. It would be sad if, as The Viking suggests, that Neville dies or suffers the fate of his parents. LPO
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M A Grimmett - Jul 19, 2007 6:43 am (#1289 of 1448)
I want more than anything for Neville to break through and show the world definitively that he is a wizard to be reckoned with. I want Voldemort to wonder if maybe he chose the wrong kid. I think Neville's magic has been blocked up because of what happened to his parents and the attitude of his remaining family; I want him to get all unblocked and prove that he is Harry's equal.
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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2007 7:25 am (#1290 of 1448)
Librarian
I also think that Neville heard the prophecy. It is unclear in OOTP but in HBP when he says that he did not hear the prophecy he turns "geranium pink." The Round Pink Spider has done a good deal of study and concludes that pink means secrets. Just a few instances off the top of my head, Hagrid's pink umbrella hides his wand, the Fat Lady who hides the Gryffindor common room wears pink and when Hermione is talking about confunding Cormac (can't spell his last name) she turns pink.
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Choices - Jul 19, 2007 8:46 am (#1291 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Umbridge wears a pink sweater. Pink definitely indicates that someone is hiding a secret or is not what they appear to be.
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Ms Amanda - Jul 19, 2007 9:04 am (#1292 of 1448)
You know, Dumbledore said that prophecies don't have to come true. Neville broke the prophecy orb. What if that is foreshadowing?
Then again, JKR seemed to suggest that Neville is simply a could-have-been when it comes to the prophecy, hasn't she?
No matter. I really want Neville to step up, too. He definitely has it in him and just needs something to stand up for and someone to stand with him.
I still vote for Trevor to be important, or at least great-uncle Algie.
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Hagsquid - Jul 21, 2007 1:42 am (#1293 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Neville is Grifendor, and his courage is unquestionable. [=
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 8:53 am (#1294 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 6:23 pm (#1295 of 1448)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Go Neville, It's your birthday. Go Neville. I'm not big fan of him or anything!
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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 9:21 am (#1296 of 1448)
I've always loved Neville. In fact, scroll to the very bottom of my profile and see what's there! Hm ... speaking of profiles, I guess I should get rid of Veronica one of these days. LOL
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Chelsealyn - Aug 4, 2007 2:13 pm (#1297 of 1448)
Hello Everyone !! I love Neville and I've always had this theory to why he is so forgetful, it might be a bit late now that the last book is out but here it goes:
I think Neville was there when his parents were tortured and either saw it happen or heard something. Then when the Ministry came and his Gran took him to live with her, he was extremely upset and the thought of it was tormenting him (nightmares, not sleeping, etc.)so his Gran tried to make him forget by using a Memory Charm but sort of over did it a bit. Like what Professor McGonagall says to Neville:
"Take Charms" said Professor McGonagall, "and I shall drop Augusta a line reminding her that just because she failed her Charms O.W.L., the subject is not necessarily worthless" -HBP pg166UK
Now Neville has lasting damage because of the mistake. Maybe she got him the Remembrall because she felt bad about it. ... Or maybe its just a present. Neville could have nothing wrong with him at all.
Its just a thought -- Chelsealyn
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 4, 2007 3:42 pm (#1298 of 1448)
I feel terrible that all of those theories about why Neville was forgetful went down the drain. So many of them were interesting. But Neville was awesome in DH!
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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 4:01 pm (#1299 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Until JKR comes out with her encyclopedia saying otherwise, I'm going with the idea that Neville discovered an herbal tonic and is now cured.
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Puck - Aug 4, 2007 6:30 pm (#1300 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think that tonic is called self confidence, which Neville seemed to find a bucket of in the room of requirement.
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This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Yup, that's the quote.
So far, I've narrowed it down to a few ideas.
1. Neville Betrays Harry.
2. Ron is an animagi Lion.
3. Buckbeak protecting the trio from Lupin.
I like all three ideas to be honest.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 4, 2007 12:27 pm (#1252 of 1448)
I think it's either:
a) Draco howling like a werewolf.
b) Snape standing in front of the kids to protect them.
c) Hogwarts getting locked down in the face of an expected attack.
None of which I admit, have to do with Neville. I don't think he would betray Harry intentionally. Maybe he could be confused or tricked into it, but not intentionally.
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Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 12:47 pm (#1253 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Wow. There was a lot added to the movie that wasn't in the book. Mayhap this is a fruitless endevour.
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Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 2:09 pm (#1254 of 1448)
Librarian
I once tried to watch POA, the movie, and keep track of what the surprising thing could be. I was running about 1 a minute when I gave up. I agree, this is a fruitless endeavor.
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Choices - Jul 4, 2007 5:47 pm (#1255 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Die Z - I like your choices. The Draco one I had not thought about. Very good!
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2007 6:47 pm (#1256 of 1448)
I think it is sad that the Death Eaters break out from jail is what really motivated Neville in the DA. We saw a glimmer of Neville showing bravery in PS/SS when he stood up to HRH. One scene in the books that touches me the most is when Neville sees everyone at St. Mungos. LPO
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totyle - Jul 4, 2007 7:00 pm (#1257 of 1448)
Yes..that scene in OotP was very touching. And his Gran is an absolute tyrant..I couldnt believe even there she had to belittle Neville in front of his friends. I couldve smacked her with her own stuffed vulture for that. Just shows what poor Neville had to put up growing up with her.
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Allison R - Jul 4, 2007 7:35 pm (#1258 of 1448)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
You know, it's not even on the same scale of damage or intent, but it reminds me of the constant bullying and belittling and terrorizing that Marvelo Gaunt inflicted on Merope. It's that constant chipping away of self esteem and negative self-image being reinforced...
I get the impression that HRH's friendship was one of the first relationships that contradicted all that for Neville. It would be hard enough growing up without parents, but to have your caregiver inflict that kind of damage would just make things ten times worse.
Hmm, I guess the Dursely's would be another fine example of inflicting the same type of damage. JK Rowling's got a real theme going here, doesn't she?
Maybe it's all back to Dumbledore's "it's our choices that define who we are, and not our abilities", doesn't it?
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 4, 2007 7:40 pm (#1259 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Not as bad as what Harry had to put up with.
Mickey
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2007 7:47 pm (#1260 of 1448)
I agree Allison. I think there is a couple themes. Neville and Harry are constantly degraded and Dudley. and Draco are spoiled rotten.
I think Neville's Gran is a bit old to be raising a child. He must share things with her because she knew his friends and appreciated how much Hermione helped him. Her comment about him being a good boy but not very talented breaks my heart. In GoF when Harry finds out about Neville's parents he wonders why he never asked Neville about his family. Neville is invisible in many ways. LPO
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M A Grimmett - Jul 5, 2007 6:11 am (#1261 of 1448)
It's not just Neville's Gran--all his relations seemed to treat him like a slightly retarded pet.--Remember his Uncle, who dropped him out the window? There is something seriously wrong with that family.
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Choices - Jul 5, 2007 8:34 am (#1262 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have always wondered if Neville's Gran is a mean, spiteful old woman or is she just from another era where children were less "spoiled" and pampered? Is she just a strict, "no-nonsense" type of person, or does she purposely try to hurt and belittle Neville? I try to give Gran the benefit of the doubt and think that she is doing the best she knows how with Neville - she is older and perhaps from a strict background, and she has had some sorrows in her life stemming from what happened to her only son and his wife.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2007 9:00 am (#1263 of 1448)
I don't think she is mean spirited like Snape or the Dursleys. She commands a certain amount of respect in the wizarding community. I'm not a parent but it seems to me most grandparents look for their child in the grandchild. I think Gran is a bit disappointed in not seeing more of her son in Neville.
The relations aren't a good example either! LPO
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Choices - Jul 5, 2007 9:05 am (#1264 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You made me remember that McGonagall seemed to know Neville's Gran quite well - perhaps they were friends in school. They seem to be cut from the same cloth. McGonagall is a strict, no-nonsense teacher and probably the same in her personal life - much like Gran. You bring up a good point, LPO, that Gran is respected in the wizarding community.
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journeymom - Jul 5, 2007 9:06 am (#1265 of 1448)
Choices, I'm with you on this one. I don't think we're supposed to put Gran in the same category with the Dursleys. We should contrast them. Gran is harsh and has unreasonably high expectations of Neville, but she doesn't loath him like the Dursleys do Harry. I think she cares for him, she's glad he's a Longbottom. LPO is right, she's too old to be raising Neville. I think we can contrast her with Lucius Malfoy, too. Like Gran, Lucius is imperious, but in a racial way, while Gran is proud to be a Dumbledore supporter.
I think Uncle Algie dropping baby Neville out a window (wasn't it sort of accidental?) is just ludicrous, but JKR intends it to be funny. There are a few things she intends to be funny that I think are kind of horrible, but oh well!
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2007 11:50 am (#1266 of 1448)
but JKR intends it to be funny. There are a few things she intends to be funny that I think are kind of horrible, but oh well! Journeymom
There is a slapstick nature to Jo's humor that I sometimes have to remind myself about. LPO
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2007 2:21 pm (#1267 of 1448)
Gran Longbottom seems very Victoriran, when children were seen and not heard, and you told the kids not to be crybabies, and to buck up and forge on for duty and humanity.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 6, 2007 7:46 am (#1268 of 1448)
Yeah, she does seem very Victorian. She does seem cruel to Neville--in an off-hand sort of way. She's so fixated on her son (treats his wife as something of annoyance) that she compares Neville to him almost unmercifully. Anybody who is treated that way is going to have self-esteem problems, and Neville has had it in spades. What's given him boosts up have been his excellence in Herbology, and Harry treating him like a friend (and I think, after the Ministry incident) an equal.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 6, 2007 3:11 pm (#1269 of 1448)
@ Azkaban movie: JKR said, that something Cuaron *added* to the movie gave her goosebumps. As far as I remember, no scene with Neville talking to Malfoy was added. If anything, the fact how Malfoy learned about Harry's breakdown was left out of the movie. Therefore I don't think she could have meant anything regarding Neville's "friendship" with Malfoy. There wasn't even the tiniest hint for this in the movie. Personally, I think it was either Snape protecting the Trio, or the students chattering about falling off the Astronomy Tower.
And also, please don't take it personally Hagssquid, but I honestly wonder, how people can think Neville can be intimated that easily. He was willing to let himself tortured by the very same Death Eater, who drove his parents into madness. If this isn't some real bravery, than I really don't know, what is. Also, Wormatail always hid behind his friends, and that's exactly what Neville never did.
(And now I'm finishing this post really relieved, that there will only be two more weeks, until all the *Neville is like Wormtail* theories are finally going to the bin, where they belong at the latest since the release of OotP, if not much earlier).
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 6, 2007 3:48 pm (#1270 of 1448)
"You're worth twelve of Malfoy", Harry said. "The Sorting Hat chose your for Gryffindor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin." SS p. 218 Scholastic Hardbound. Neville proved his bravery by taking on Crabbe and Goyle at the Quidditch match and facing down HRH as Dumbledore said: "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends." p. 306 of said book.
I agree Neville. I'm looking forward to the "Neville is like Wormtail" theories being chucked in the bin. LPO
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Hagsquid - Jul 7, 2007 11:06 pm (#1271 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
yeah.... that was my point.
In the movie, Harry asks "How did [Malfoy] find out" when Malfoy asks Harry if it's true that he passed out on the train.
Someone watching only the movie, would be left wondering how Malfoy found out. Someone who knows the books would know how he found out.
Could give JKR chills if Neville was meant to betray Harry. See my point?
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 9, 2007 5:12 pm (#1272 of 1448)
I may be wrong about a lot of things, but I'm absolutely certain that Neville is NOT going to betray Harry. Neville is not analogous to Wormtail. Wormtail was a suck-up, a fawning sycophant, such people are usually self-interested, and likely to falter in their loyalty when put to the test. They seek favor, not friendship. They are all humility in their devotion to someone greater than themselves, but they hope that persons greatness will rub off on themselves, and that they will share in his perquisites.
Neville, in contrast, is artless in his friendship for Harry. He admires and respects Harry, but he is not obsequious or ostentatious in his admiration. He serves the D.A. not to curry favor, but because he knows it is the right thing to do. He even stands up to Harry when he believes that is the right thing to do.
I fear that Neville will attempt more than he can handle, possibly by trying to take on LV directly in the mistaken belief that he is the chosen one in the prophecy. But I have no fear at all that he will prove coward or traitor.
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Choices - Jul 9, 2007 5:19 pm (#1273 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Bravo **claps madly** Well said, Vox.
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Soul Search - Jul 9, 2007 5:25 pm (#1274 of 1448)
Vox Gerbilis,
Well expressed. I agree. (Although I did have to look up perquisite. New word for me. Thanks.)
I also agree with your fear that Neville did hear the prophecy and may do something heroic, but tragically stupid.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 9, 2007 7:26 pm (#1275 of 1448)
Congratulations to Vox. That was one of the best posts about Neville that I have ever read. Truly awesome and to the point. Neville has a personal stake in this. Of course he knows it's the right thing to do. And I'm not ruling out that someone may trick him into making a mistake, but he would not intentionally betray the cause that gives him his one hope to resolve his past and have a future.
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journeymom - Jul 9, 2007 10:26 pm (#1276 of 1448)
Yes! Sorry, but I've been avoiding Neville's thread here because I so strongly object to the idea that Neville would betray Harry.
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Steve Newton - Jul 10, 2007 3:37 am (#1277 of 1448)
Librarian
Vox, I agree with you. Unfortunately, its Neville's willingness to take on more than he might be able which makes me think that he won't be with us at the end of DH.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 10, 2007 6:27 am (#1278 of 1448)
Well said, Vox!!!!!!!
If the worse happens, maybe his grandmother will finally approve of him.
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Joanna Lupin - Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am (#1279 of 1448)
Isn't it typical? We see the truth worth of people only when they're gone... Oh, I hope Neville makes it through to the end and becomes herbology teacher... *sobs*
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 10, 2007 9:45 am (#1280 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"I fear that Neville will attempt more than he can handle, possibly by trying to take on LV directly in the mistaken belief that he is the chosen one in the prophecy. But I have no fear at all that he will prove coward or traitor."
Myself, I feel the opposite, I think he will neither prove coward nor traitor, I think he will dig deep, find the real thing of his worth, he'll be tried, and come out ahead.
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2007 11:53 am (#1281 of 1448)
I agree TBE. Neville is a true Gryffindor. LPO
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legolas returns - Jul 10, 2007 11:59 am (#1282 of 1448)
He told Harry not to give the prophosy to Lucius Malfoy. Thats the hard rather than easy way. Good choice Nevile!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 11, 2007 1:10 pm (#1283 of 1448)
Even if Neville finds out what the prophesy was about, he'd know that Harry is the chosen one.
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The Viking - Jul 16, 2007 12:48 am (#1284 of 1448)
I do carry a grudge against Augusta Longbottom. She has never loved Neville as an unique individual with his own life, abilities and weaknesses, but has more or less considered him a replacement for her lost son. While she did not intended do be cruel or abusive, she has in fact been so.
In the DoM battle Neille did fight bravely, but not very skillfull. I hope that his final contribution to the cause is not suddenly turning into a great warrior, but more in supplying herbolgy knowlegde or acting like a medic or something like it.
I want him to be recogniced for what he is, not for finally turning into a replacement for his dad.
I also have considered the possibilty that Neville will follow in his dads path to the extent of dying or being permanetly disabled on the battlefied, fullfilling Augustas wish a bit more than she would have wanted.
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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 3:02 am (#1285 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I keep waiting for the "Neville is Dobby" theories to crop out now that I've seen the second movie. ^^
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M A Grimmett - Jul 16, 2007 6:21 am (#1286 of 1448)
Excellent post, Viking. My thoughts exactly. No one can doubt Neville's courage.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 16, 2007 9:05 am (#1287 of 1448)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
His grandmother has an elevated view of her son and his wife due to the injuries they sustained in the war with Voldemort. No matter how good Neville had been he never would have achieved his fathers pedestal in my view.
Mickey
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 19, 2007 6:40 am (#1288 of 1448)
After re-reading OoP I thought it odd that Neville is the one that accidently destroys the prophecy. It could have been about him. He is always there with Harry. I think he will have an important role. I agree Mickey. It would be sad if, as The Viking suggests, that Neville dies or suffers the fate of his parents. LPO
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M A Grimmett - Jul 19, 2007 6:43 am (#1289 of 1448)
I want more than anything for Neville to break through and show the world definitively that he is a wizard to be reckoned with. I want Voldemort to wonder if maybe he chose the wrong kid. I think Neville's magic has been blocked up because of what happened to his parents and the attitude of his remaining family; I want him to get all unblocked and prove that he is Harry's equal.
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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2007 7:25 am (#1290 of 1448)
Librarian
I also think that Neville heard the prophecy. It is unclear in OOTP but in HBP when he says that he did not hear the prophecy he turns "geranium pink." The Round Pink Spider has done a good deal of study and concludes that pink means secrets. Just a few instances off the top of my head, Hagrid's pink umbrella hides his wand, the Fat Lady who hides the Gryffindor common room wears pink and when Hermione is talking about confunding Cormac (can't spell his last name) she turns pink.
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Choices - Jul 19, 2007 8:46 am (#1291 of 1448)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Umbridge wears a pink sweater. Pink definitely indicates that someone is hiding a secret or is not what they appear to be.
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Ms Amanda - Jul 19, 2007 9:04 am (#1292 of 1448)
You know, Dumbledore said that prophecies don't have to come true. Neville broke the prophecy orb. What if that is foreshadowing?
Then again, JKR seemed to suggest that Neville is simply a could-have-been when it comes to the prophecy, hasn't she?
No matter. I really want Neville to step up, too. He definitely has it in him and just needs something to stand up for and someone to stand with him.
I still vote for Trevor to be important, or at least great-uncle Algie.
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Hagsquid - Jul 21, 2007 1:42 am (#1293 of 1448)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Neville is Grifendor, and his courage is unquestionable. [=
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 8:53 am (#1294 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 6:23 pm (#1295 of 1448)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Go Neville, It's your birthday. Go Neville. I'm not big fan of him or anything!
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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 9:21 am (#1296 of 1448)
I've always loved Neville. In fact, scroll to the very bottom of my profile and see what's there! Hm ... speaking of profiles, I guess I should get rid of Veronica one of these days. LOL
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Chelsealyn - Aug 4, 2007 2:13 pm (#1297 of 1448)
Hello Everyone !! I love Neville and I've always had this theory to why he is so forgetful, it might be a bit late now that the last book is out but here it goes:
I think Neville was there when his parents were tortured and either saw it happen or heard something. Then when the Ministry came and his Gran took him to live with her, he was extremely upset and the thought of it was tormenting him (nightmares, not sleeping, etc.)so his Gran tried to make him forget by using a Memory Charm but sort of over did it a bit. Like what Professor McGonagall says to Neville:
"Take Charms" said Professor McGonagall, "and I shall drop Augusta a line reminding her that just because she failed her Charms O.W.L., the subject is not necessarily worthless" -HBP pg166UK
Now Neville has lasting damage because of the mistake. Maybe she got him the Remembrall because she felt bad about it. ... Or maybe its just a present. Neville could have nothing wrong with him at all.
Its just a thought
-- Chelsealyn - - - - - - - - - -
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 4, 2007 3:42 pm (#1298 of 1448)
I feel terrible that all of those theories about why Neville was forgetful went down the drain. So many of them were interesting. But Neville was awesome in DH!
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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 4:01 pm (#1299 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Until JKR comes out with her encyclopedia saying otherwise, I'm going with the idea that Neville discovered an herbal tonic and is now cured.
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Puck - Aug 4, 2007 6:30 pm (#1300 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think that tonic is called self confidence, which Neville seemed to find a bucket of in the room of requirement.
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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2007 7:10 pm (#1301 of 1448)
I think the reason Neville was so forgetful was probably that he lacked confidence and felt totally intimidated by so many of the people in his life. From the start, his family made it known that they had feared he was a Squib. That doesn't do much to instill confidence in a kid, now, does it? Then there was the way Snape treated him for most of his time at Hogwarts.
Neville's Gran and Uncle Algy may not have been cruel to him in the way that Marvolo Gaunt was cruel to Merope, but Uncle Algy's attempts to discover whether or not Neville had magical ability border on abusive, if you ask me. Gran may not have participated in these shenanigans, but she lost no opportunity to compare Neville unfavorably with his more talented father. Stuff like that takes a toll on a kid.
We see a big change in Neville in OotP, when he participates in the DA and insists on accompanying Harry & Co. to the Ministry to save Sirius. I thought it was interesting that Neville is the one who stays with Harry as the others fall, despite the fact that he is suffering under the effects of the Tarantallegra curse. I love that Neville and Luna are the ones who answer the summons of the coins in HBP, and I really love that Neville led the "resistance" at Hogwarts in Harry's absence. Not surprisingly, I think Gran began to respect Neville after his participation at the DoM battle. We certainly see her pride in him in DH.
Sometimes, it only takes having someone to believe in one to bring out the best. Harry believed in Neville enough to charge him with making sure the final Horcrux was destroyed ... although he didn't tell him that's what he would be doing. And Neville trusted Harry enough to accept the charge without question. I love that Neville helped to bring about the fall of Voldemort ... and, in a way, was a part of the fulfillment of the prophecy.
Solitaire
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Viola Intonada - Aug 5, 2007 8:43 am (#1302 of 1448)
I loved Neville in DH.
I have one question though. How did Neville get Griffindor's Sword? Did Griphook give it to Neville because he wanted Voldemort overcome, or is there a charm on the sword that causes the sword to go to a Griffindor in need?
In CoS, I always assumed that the sword came to Harry because Dumbledore had sent it, or Fawkes caused it to come the Harry.
I loved Neville's Gran in DH. About time she realized what a great Grandson she has.
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Paul Potter - Aug 5, 2007 8:54 am (#1303 of 1448)
The Sword will only come to true Gryffindors, Griphook could never truly own the sword as he wasn't a Gryffindor.
Yes I think there is a charm on the sword that when a Gryffindor asks for help it will come
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 9:32 am (#1304 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think Neville needed someone to believe in him, but he also needed a cause, something to fight for. Umbridge managed to give him that, and Bella's escape only fed the fire.
I think McGonogall's praise went a long way, as well.
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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2007 12:58 pm (#1305 of 1448)
The sword must be taken under conditions of need and valor. I'd say having the Sorting Hat sitting upon one's head while burning would certainly constitute need ... and telling Voldemort (more or less) to stuff it constitutes bravery. Besides that, Neville needed to kill that snake ... and the Hat would have known it, as he was probably wondering how he was going to accomplish that while the Hat was on his head! I figure the Hat did the same thing to Neville as it did to Harry in CoS--it loosened the sword, which conked him on the head! That's how he knew it was in the Hat!
Solitaire
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Remi - Aug 5, 2007 3:34 pm (#1306 of 1448)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
One of my friends thought that Neville getting the sword out of the hat was a "cheat". I thought it was brilliant. Proves that Godrick didn't get the sword thru deceit as Griphook suggested, and that Neville is a true griffyndor.
I also LOVED that Neville led the resistance against Voldemort and that HE - not Ron, Hermione or one of the teachers or adults - was the one to break free of the crowd and charge Voldemort. That he said, "I'll join you when hell freezes over."
We've been waiting for Neville to be a truly important figure since the first book. It's great to see him become a man.
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 7:43 pm (#1307 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Not just a man, but the man.
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Jenniffler - Aug 5, 2007 7:48 pm (#1308 of 1448)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
He's not a professor, he is the professor.
Pretty good for the boy who was almost king.
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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 6:57 am (#1309 of 1448)
Remi, I think that Neville did that partly because Harry had given him a job to do just before Harry went into the forest. He was the only one Harry had given a specific task to at that time.
I am sure that the first thing Neville noticed when he walked out in front of Hogwarts (besides Hagrid carrying Harry) was Nagini. And I am sure Harry's "last words" to kill the snake was the only thing he was thinking about at that time. Yay for Harry giving Neville a crucial part of winning the war. Yay Neville for seeing the opportunity for what it was and finishing the job.
And to pull the sword out of fire. Neville was truely a Griffindor's Griffindor.
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 6, 2007 9:39 am (#1310 of 1448)
Neville's development was my favourite part of DH. I loved the Nagini scene. I got worried he wouldn't play any part, because he didn't appear for the first 3/4 of the book. But the end made totally up for it.
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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2007 10:24 am (#1311 of 1448)
I really think that some of the things Neville did with the "Resistance" were things the twins would have done ... like the graffitti (Dumbledore's Army, Still Recruiting)! I was impressed by the way he figured out how to really work the RoR to make it Carrow-proof. Most of all, I loved how he never lost faith in Harry--"I knew you'd come! I knew it, Harry!" What a guy!
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2007 10:31 am (#1312 of 1448)
Librarian
The Legendary Snake Slayer would have made an excellent Chosen One.
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Remi - Aug 6, 2007 3:25 pm (#1313 of 1448)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Yes, Neville has become THE man. I stand corrected
It probably has been mentioned previosly, but I was thrilled that Neville's role in the GOF movie was increased (Neville being the one who gave Harry gillyweed, being the first to dance in McGonagal's dance class, and staying to the very end of the Yule Ball). I also loved that Neville was the one who found the ROR in the OOTP movie.
Since Jo has input in the movies, I wonder if she was the one who suggested these changes, particularly in light of DH. I had always assumed that the screenwriter or director knew Neville had a large fan-following and made the changes to increase public appeal....
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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2007 8:14 pm (#1314 of 1448)
I was just thinking about the night Neville was sorted, when he ran off to join the Gryffindor table, still wearing the Sorting Hat! Was that a clue to his true nature? How interesting that the Sorting Hat was placed on his head again in DH, this time confirming to all that he was, indeed, a true Gryffindor ... as if we had any doubts!
Solitaire
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 14, 2007 10:12 pm (#1315 of 1448)
In OoP when Harry was setting out to the MoM he would have never picked Neville to go and fight with him. I love in DH Harry picked Neville to replace him. Neville got the job done. It is a long way from standing up to your friends as a first year to standing up to Voldemort as a seventh year. LPO
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Solitaire - Aug 15, 2007 7:14 pm (#1316 of 1448)
I think Harry realized, when he saw Neville in the Hog's Head, that Neville had pretty much stepped in and done what he (Harry) would have done, had he stayed. In fact, I think Neville may have had a bit more of the twins' panache in how he handled it. Neville had a sense of humor about what he did (Dumbledore's Army, Still Recruiting just screams F&G), even though he completely meant business. Harry has always tended to be more serious. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 12:31 am (#1317 of 1448)
Yeah! Neville and Hannah get married and live over the Leaky Cauldron. Does this mean that Neville stops being a Herbology teacher and becomes a Bar Man or does he remain a teacher?
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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 20, 2007 5:17 am (#1318 of 1448)
When did Neville even notice Hannah? Oh, I forgot. You can ignore someone for years and suddenly be in love with them. Snorts.
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 5:26 am (#1319 of 1448)
I am glad Neville found happiness regardless of who it was with.
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Eponine - Oct 20, 2007 6:19 am (#1320 of 1448)
I wouldn't say that Neville ignored Hannah or vice versa. They didn't really seem to know each other in Hogwarts. Who's to say they didn't get acquainted after school?
I'm just glad he found someone to be happy with.
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Meoshimo - Oct 20, 2007 7:17 am (#1321 of 1448)
I'm sure Neville proving time and again his bravery and courage didn't hurt when attracting the ladies.
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Eponine - Oct 20, 2007 7:25 am (#1322 of 1448)
Definitely. Neville proved himself to be one kick-butt character, and that would definitely be attractive to some girls.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 11:25 am (#1323 of 1448)
I don't know why but I always found Hannah to be a sort of female version of Neville (pre-DH Neville, that is).
Perhaps Professor Longbottom will reveal the mystery surrounding Hogwarts teachers and their spouses!
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 11:48 am (#1324 of 1448)
I thought that the mystery was because of Lupin and Tonks.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 11:51 am (#1325 of 1448)
Really? I thought JKR just didn't want us fishing around Snape's marital status/love life too much.
It's interesting how the same comment has just a variety of meanings to different people.
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Solitaire - Oct 20, 2007 5:40 pm (#1326 of 1448)
Tonks and Lupin didn't even meet until long after he'd left Hogwarts, so I do not think it would be about them.
The thing I like about Neville is his consistency. Through all of the garbage that has swirled around Harry over the years, Neville has never once wavered in his support and friendship. He has always been there, covering Harry's back, whenever he's been needed. In his 7th year, with the absence of the Trio and the Twins, Neville truly had the opportunity to shine in the insolence department. He had five years of watching master pranksters F&G keep things hopping at Hogwarts. He's had six years of watching Harry the Underdog be the reluctant hero. Neville knew just what to do!
Congratulations to Neville and Hannah!
Solitaire
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jose043 - Oct 20, 2007 10:34 pm (#1327 of 1448)
Congratulation to Neville & Hannah, hope they have many happy years together & some children a long the way.
Josephine & Anne
Little Werewolves of London
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Orion - Oct 21, 2007 1:35 am (#1328 of 1448)
It's a very fan-friendly solution. In fact, it's almost a fan-fiction solution. I'm not convinced, but it's okay. So he has to walk up from Hogsmeade every morning or apparate to the gate. It's nice that finally one of the teachers is allowed a life outside the grounds. It was creepy, them all living in their cubicles.
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legolas returns - Oct 21, 2007 2:13 am (#1329 of 1448)
Was thinking the same thing Orion about teachers living outside the grounds. I was wondering if the floo network could be set up to work for Neville only e.g connecting the leaky cauldron to his study in Hogwarts? The death eaters had magic that only allowed people with a dark mark through so I am sure that there must of been a non dark magic way as well e.g connection opened by the DA magic coin . I was wondering whether Neville went home every evening or just at weekends and holidays.
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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2007 5:54 am (#1330 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited Oct 21, 2007 8:16 am
In in OotP did the Floo network get disconnected under the Umbridge administration. In HBP it was back. When the Harry, Ron, and Ginny returned after the Christmas holiday, the took the Floo right into Professor McGonagall's office.
Edit: mea culpa, Floo Network was not disconnected, it was watched. Vigilance!
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Joanna Lupin - Oct 21, 2007 6:29 am (#1331 of 1448)
As far as I can remember, it wasn't disconnected at all. It was being watched by the Ministry.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 8:39 am (#1332 of 1448)
I'm assuming if Neville lives above the pub he isn't head of Gryffindor House (as I'd hoped) because a Head of House needs to sleep near the dorm to be accessible to their students at all times.
We've seen students rush to call McGonagall when Harry is sick, so I'm sure she's come in for other sickies as well. (giggle, just had a mental image of Snape coming into the Slytherin common room in his grey nightshirt to take a first year with tummyache to the hospital wing!)
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 23, 2007 5:19 am (#1333 of 1448)
Yay for Neville and Hannah.
I didn't see that one coming. But it makes sense. Neville, who has to all intents and purposes lost his parents, finds it in himself to be incredibly brave, to the point where he gets tortured for it. Hannah, who has lost her mother, comes back for the last fight and runs right past Voldemort to get into the Great Hall in pursuit of the retreating Death Eaters. They're sweet, gentle, but really incredibly brave, kickarse people. They really do deserve each other. (As to how they get together I'm not sure. It might help, though I'm not sure how much of an old-scholars network Hogwarts has, that Hannah's Head of House is Neville's predecessor. And remember they WERE both DA. My fanfic wheels are spinning.)
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Barbara J - Oct 23, 2007 8:21 am (#1334 of 1448)
Yay Neville, indeed. He did get his moment in DH, but my favorite Neville moment is still in OoP, yelling STUBEFY! STUBEFY! through his broken, bloody nose. He deserves a happy, happy ending to the story.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 8:23 am (#1335 of 1448)
I also loved, "It's DUBBLEDORE!" in OotP.
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legolas returns - Oct 25, 2007 11:25 am (#1336 of 1448)
Neville began his time at Hogwarts as somewhat inept and not very popular. By the end of the time he has a big band of admirers and is incredibly brave when standing up to Voldemort. Way to go neville! He becomes a teacher, marries Hannah and lives over the leaky cauldron. Pretty cool!
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Winky Woo - Nov 13, 2007 8:17 am (#1337 of 1448)
My favourite place in the world, the English Lake District
Yea for Neville! I second what Legolas has written.
It has been a joy to watch him grow through out the 7 books. Many peoples personalities are glimpsed when they are younger, but they never have the opportunity to truly blossom until much later in their lives.
I think this another subtle message from JKR about not judging people too soon, and gives hope than it doesn't matter if you aren't the smartest or most popular person in school, you can still come into your own and make a difference. Just be true to yourself.
Love Winky x
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Denise P. - Nov 13, 2007 9:19 am (#1338 of 1448)
Ravenclaw Pony
I really like how we were able to see him grow and come into his own through the course of the books. It was nice to see him blossom and grow when JKR could have just left him to be the pathetic bumbling boy who tries but always falls short.
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totyle - Nov 13, 2007 6:58 pm (#1339 of 1448)
Denise P :It was nice to see him blossom and grow when JKR could have just left him to be the pathetic bumbling boy who tries but always falls short.
Oh Yes..totally agree! I was actually very much frustrated that in GoF we still see poor Neville as someone who couldn't get the date he wanted for the Yule Ball and kept stepping on Ginny's toes during the dance. The movie version is what I keep in mind because that actually is a much better progression of his character and it is sooooo satisfying that Neville outshone the other boys in dancing. And again in Ootp she made him a pathetic bumbling boy who broke his nose and could not utter the spells properly. It's like he was marked as pathetic by JKR and was going to remain so. So, I was SO VERY HAPPY when JKR finally gave him the break he so much deserves. I simply loved Neville in DH.
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Soul Search - Mar 25, 2008 12:53 pm (#1340 of 1448)
I was listening to SS and it occurred to me there was no mention of Neville's toad Trevor in Deathly Hallows. Then I wondered about HBP; I couldn't recall any mention of Trevor, but I will have to listen again to make sure. The last mention of Trevor I can recall is on the train at the beginning of OotP. There, Neville is in his usually bumbling form, demonstrated with help from Trevor.
What I am working up to is that OotP starts off with a bumbling Neville but progresses to a more confident, capable Neville. In Deathly Hallows Neville has come into his own, but Trevor is not in Deathly Hallows. Does JKR use Trevor the toad to indicate Neville's "bumblelingness?"
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wynnleaf - Mar 26, 2008 5:45 am (#1341 of 1448)
That's a good catch. By the end of OOTP, Neville is willing to even go up against someone like Bellatrix. Trevor evokes the "Neville as naive, fearful, bumbling kid" which no longer fits his character. Neville is growing up at the end of OOTP and of course by DH he is, in my opinion, more mature, dependable, and capable than almost any of the teenage characters. More so, for instance (in my opinion) than Ron. So where ever Trevor is, he is no longer appropriate as a "prop" to augment Neville's character.
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PeskyPixie - Mar 26, 2008 7:02 am (#1342 of 1448)
Maybe the new Neville has a better grip on Trevor and therefore no longer loses him?
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haymoni - Mar 29, 2008 7:31 am (#1343 of 1448)
Maybe Trevor bit the dust.
I mean, if "a common garden rat" wasn't supposed to live long, how long does a toad live?
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Orion - Mar 29, 2008 12:19 pm (#1344 of 1448)
Toads get 10 years, 15 years old. I'm a member of Friends Of The Earth and carry the little gits over the road every year, and I've been told that some of them are real methusalems. Trevor was a too childish accessory for Neville in the end. He (Trevor) served as a reminder how clumsy Neville was, and when Neville wasn't clumsy any more, Trevor didn't fit into the picture any more.
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Chemyst - Mar 29, 2008 5:40 pm (#1345 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
... or maybe Umbridge caught Trevor doing a comedic impersonation and she turned him into hors d'oeuvres.
It is curious that Trevor would just hop away without any mention, (Crookshanks, too.)
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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 29, 2008 9:29 pm (#1346 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Crookshanks was left at the Wesleys, ... I think.
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jose043 - Mar 29, 2008 11:03 pm (#1347 of 1448)
Chemyst - LOL glad we were not drinking any water at the time of your post. We could see Umbridge catching Trevor and turning him into hors d' oeuvres, as she was a very nasty peace of medicine.
Josephine & Anne
Little Werewolves of London
The Moon made me do it.
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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2008 11:03 am (#1348 of 1448)
Librarian
Just a few comments about similarities between Neville and Harry. Mostly for my own memory. Most of this is a repeat of an earlier posting, over a year ago, but I have a couple of updates.
Harry and Neville:
Could each have been meant by the Prophecy Were born a day apart Both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions Both true Gryffindors (The sword came to each.) In the Forbidden Forest together as a punishment Each have their right arms broken while on broomsticks (Technically crashing broomsticks.) Both dated Ginny Have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell, Neville by Dolohov and Hermione, Harry by Draco Both can see Thestrals Snape hates both Both have been hit by the Petrificus Totalus spell, Neville by Hermione and Harry by Draco, again Both have led rebellions/resistance movements at Hogwarts Both faced Voldemort in battle
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shepherdess - Mar 31, 2008 12:00 pm (#1349 of 1448)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I think also, early in their lives they were both a little unsure about their place in the wizarding world, but grew to be very powerful wizards, confident in their abilities to do what was required of them.
The difference, of course, being that Harry was carrying around a piece of Voldemort's soul.
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Julia H. - Mar 31, 2008 12:04 pm (#1350 of 1448)
Both loved a mother who could not bring them up.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think the reason Neville was so forgetful was probably that he lacked confidence and felt totally intimidated by so many of the people in his life. From the start, his family made it known that they had feared he was a Squib. That doesn't do much to instill confidence in a kid, now, does it? Then there was the way Snape treated him for most of his time at Hogwarts.
Neville's Gran and Uncle Algy may not have been cruel to him in the way that Marvolo Gaunt was cruel to Merope, but Uncle Algy's attempts to discover whether or not Neville had magical ability border on abusive, if you ask me. Gran may not have participated in these shenanigans, but she lost no opportunity to compare Neville unfavorably with his more talented father. Stuff like that takes a toll on a kid.
We see a big change in Neville in OotP, when he participates in the DA and insists on accompanying Harry & Co. to the Ministry to save Sirius. I thought it was interesting that Neville is the one who stays with Harry as the others fall, despite the fact that he is suffering under the effects of the Tarantallegra curse. I love that Neville and Luna are the ones who answer the summons of the coins in HBP, and I really love that Neville led the "resistance" at Hogwarts in Harry's absence. Not surprisingly, I think Gran began to respect Neville after his participation at the DoM battle. We certainly see her pride in him in DH.
Sometimes, it only takes having someone to believe in one to bring out the best. Harry believed in Neville enough to charge him with making sure the final Horcrux was destroyed ... although he didn't tell him that's what he would be doing. And Neville trusted Harry enough to accept the charge without question. I love that Neville helped to bring about the fall of Voldemort ... and, in a way, was a part of the fulfillment of the prophecy.
Solitaire
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Viola Intonada - Aug 5, 2007 8:43 am (#1302 of 1448)
I loved Neville in DH.
I have one question though. How did Neville get Griffindor's Sword? Did Griphook give it to Neville because he wanted Voldemort overcome, or is there a charm on the sword that causes the sword to go to a Griffindor in need?
In CoS, I always assumed that the sword came to Harry because Dumbledore had sent it, or Fawkes caused it to come the Harry.
I loved Neville's Gran in DH. About time she realized what a great Grandson she has.
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Paul Potter - Aug 5, 2007 8:54 am (#1303 of 1448)
The Sword will only come to true Gryffindors, Griphook could never truly own the sword as he wasn't a Gryffindor.
Yes I think there is a charm on the sword that when a Gryffindor asks for help it will come
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 9:32 am (#1304 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think Neville needed someone to believe in him, but he also needed a cause, something to fight for. Umbridge managed to give him that, and Bella's escape only fed the fire.
I think McGonogall's praise went a long way, as well.
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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2007 12:58 pm (#1305 of 1448)
The sword must be taken under conditions of need and valor. I'd say having the Sorting Hat sitting upon one's head while burning would certainly constitute need ... and telling Voldemort (more or less) to stuff it constitutes bravery. Besides that, Neville needed to kill that snake ... and the Hat would have known it, as he was probably wondering how he was going to accomplish that while the Hat was on his head! I figure the Hat did the same thing to Neville as it did to Harry in CoS--it loosened the sword, which conked him on the head! That's how he knew it was in the Hat!
Solitaire
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Remi - Aug 5, 2007 3:34 pm (#1306 of 1448)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
One of my friends thought that Neville getting the sword out of the hat was a "cheat". I thought it was brilliant. Proves that Godrick didn't get the sword thru deceit as Griphook suggested, and that Neville is a true griffyndor.
I also LOVED that Neville led the resistance against Voldemort and that HE - not Ron, Hermione or one of the teachers or adults - was the one to break free of the crowd and charge Voldemort. That he said, "I'll join you when hell freezes over."
We've been waiting for Neville to be a truly important figure since the first book. It's great to see him become a man.
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 7:43 pm (#1307 of 1448)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Not just a man, but the man.
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Jenniffler - Aug 5, 2007 7:48 pm (#1308 of 1448)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
He's not a professor, he is the professor.
Pretty good for the boy who was almost king.
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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 6:57 am (#1309 of 1448)
Remi, I think that Neville did that partly because Harry had given him a job to do just before Harry went into the forest. He was the only one Harry had given a specific task to at that time.
I am sure that the first thing Neville noticed when he walked out in front of Hogwarts (besides Hagrid carrying Harry) was Nagini. And I am sure Harry's "last words" to kill the snake was the only thing he was thinking about at that time. Yay for Harry giving Neville a crucial part of winning the war. Yay Neville for seeing the opportunity for what it was and finishing the job.
And to pull the sword out of fire. Neville was truely a Griffindor's Griffindor.
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 6, 2007 9:39 am (#1310 of 1448)
Neville's development was my favourite part of DH. I loved the Nagini scene. I got worried he wouldn't play any part, because he didn't appear for the first 3/4 of the book. But the end made totally up for it.
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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2007 10:24 am (#1311 of 1448)
I really think that some of the things Neville did with the "Resistance" were things the twins would have done ... like the graffitti (Dumbledore's Army, Still Recruiting)! I was impressed by the way he figured out how to really work the RoR to make it Carrow-proof. Most of all, I loved how he never lost faith in Harry--"I knew you'd come! I knew it, Harry!" What a guy!
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2007 10:31 am (#1312 of 1448)
Librarian
The Legendary Snake Slayer would have made an excellent Chosen One.
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Remi - Aug 6, 2007 3:25 pm (#1313 of 1448)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Yes, Neville has become THE man. I stand corrected
It probably has been mentioned previosly, but I was thrilled that Neville's role in the GOF movie was increased (Neville being the one who gave Harry gillyweed, being the first to dance in McGonagal's dance class, and staying to the very end of the Yule Ball). I also loved that Neville was the one who found the ROR in the OOTP movie.
Since Jo has input in the movies, I wonder if she was the one who suggested these changes, particularly in light of DH. I had always assumed that the screenwriter or director knew Neville had a large fan-following and made the changes to increase public appeal....
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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2007 8:14 pm (#1314 of 1448)
I was just thinking about the night Neville was sorted, when he ran off to join the Gryffindor table, still wearing the Sorting Hat! Was that a clue to his true nature? How interesting that the Sorting Hat was placed on his head again in DH, this time confirming to all that he was, indeed, a true Gryffindor ... as if we had any doubts!
Solitaire
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 14, 2007 10:12 pm (#1315 of 1448)
In OoP when Harry was setting out to the MoM he would have never picked Neville to go and fight with him. I love in DH Harry picked Neville to replace him. Neville got the job done. It is a long way from standing up to your friends as a first year to standing up to Voldemort as a seventh year. LPO
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Solitaire - Aug 15, 2007 7:14 pm (#1316 of 1448)
I think Harry realized, when he saw Neville in the Hog's Head, that Neville had pretty much stepped in and done what he (Harry) would have done, had he stayed. In fact, I think Neville may have had a bit more of the twins' panache in how he handled it. Neville had a sense of humor about what he did (Dumbledore's Army, Still Recruiting just screams F&G), even though he completely meant business. Harry has always tended to be more serious. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 12:31 am (#1317 of 1448)
Yeah! Neville and Hannah get married and live over the Leaky Cauldron. Does this mean that Neville stops being a Herbology teacher and becomes a Bar Man or does he remain a teacher?
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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 20, 2007 5:17 am (#1318 of 1448)
When did Neville even notice Hannah? Oh, I forgot. You can ignore someone for years and suddenly be in love with them. Snorts.
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 5:26 am (#1319 of 1448)
I am glad Neville found happiness regardless of who it was with.
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Eponine - Oct 20, 2007 6:19 am (#1320 of 1448)
I wouldn't say that Neville ignored Hannah or vice versa. They didn't really seem to know each other in Hogwarts. Who's to say they didn't get acquainted after school?
I'm just glad he found someone to be happy with.
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Meoshimo - Oct 20, 2007 7:17 am (#1321 of 1448)
I'm sure Neville proving time and again his bravery and courage didn't hurt when attracting the ladies.
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Eponine - Oct 20, 2007 7:25 am (#1322 of 1448)
Definitely. Neville proved himself to be one kick-butt character, and that would definitely be attractive to some girls.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 11:25 am (#1323 of 1448)
I don't know why but I always found Hannah to be a sort of female version of Neville (pre-DH Neville, that is).
Perhaps Professor Longbottom will reveal the mystery surrounding Hogwarts teachers and their spouses!
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 11:48 am (#1324 of 1448)
I thought that the mystery was because of Lupin and Tonks.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 11:51 am (#1325 of 1448)
Really? I thought JKR just didn't want us fishing around Snape's marital status/love life too much.
It's interesting how the same comment has just a variety of meanings to different people.
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Solitaire - Oct 20, 2007 5:40 pm (#1326 of 1448)
Tonks and Lupin didn't even meet until long after he'd left Hogwarts, so I do not think it would be about them.
The thing I like about Neville is his consistency. Through all of the garbage that has swirled around Harry over the years, Neville has never once wavered in his support and friendship. He has always been there, covering Harry's back, whenever he's been needed. In his 7th year, with the absence of the Trio and the Twins, Neville truly had the opportunity to shine in the insolence department. He had five years of watching master pranksters F&G keep things hopping at Hogwarts. He's had six years of watching Harry the Underdog be the reluctant hero. Neville knew just what to do!
Congratulations to Neville and Hannah!
Solitaire
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jose043 - Oct 20, 2007 10:34 pm (#1327 of 1448)
Congratulation to Neville & Hannah, hope they have many happy years together & some children a long the way.
Josephine & Anne
Little Werewolves of London
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Orion - Oct 21, 2007 1:35 am (#1328 of 1448)
It's a very fan-friendly solution. In fact, it's almost a fan-fiction solution. I'm not convinced, but it's okay. So he has to walk up from Hogsmeade every morning or apparate to the gate. It's nice that finally one of the teachers is allowed a life outside the grounds. It was creepy, them all living in their cubicles.
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legolas returns - Oct 21, 2007 2:13 am (#1329 of 1448)
Was thinking the same thing Orion about teachers living outside the grounds. I was wondering if the floo network could be set up to work for Neville only e.g connecting the leaky cauldron to his study in Hogwarts? The death eaters had magic that only allowed people with a dark mark through so I am sure that there must of been a non dark magic way as well e.g connection opened by the DA magic coin . I was wondering whether Neville went home every evening or just at weekends and holidays.
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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2007 5:54 am (#1330 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited Oct 21, 2007 8:16 am
In in OotP did the Floo network get disconnected under the Umbridge administration. In HBP it was back. When the Harry, Ron, and Ginny returned after the Christmas holiday, the took the Floo right into Professor McGonagall's office.
Edit: mea culpa, Floo Network was not disconnected, it was watched. Vigilance!
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Joanna Lupin - Oct 21, 2007 6:29 am (#1331 of 1448)
As far as I can remember, it wasn't disconnected at all. It was being watched by the Ministry.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 8:39 am (#1332 of 1448)
I'm assuming if Neville lives above the pub he isn't head of Gryffindor House (as I'd hoped) because a Head of House needs to sleep near the dorm to be accessible to their students at all times.
We've seen students rush to call McGonagall when Harry is sick, so I'm sure she's come in for other sickies as well. (giggle, just had a mental image of Snape coming into the Slytherin common room in his grey nightshirt to take a first year with tummyache to the hospital wing!)
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 23, 2007 5:19 am (#1333 of 1448)
Yay for Neville and Hannah.
I didn't see that one coming. But it makes sense. Neville, who has to all intents and purposes lost his parents, finds it in himself to be incredibly brave, to the point where he gets tortured for it. Hannah, who has lost her mother, comes back for the last fight and runs right past Voldemort to get into the Great Hall in pursuit of the retreating Death Eaters. They're sweet, gentle, but really incredibly brave, kickarse people. They really do deserve each other. (As to how they get together I'm not sure. It might help, though I'm not sure how much of an old-scholars network Hogwarts has, that Hannah's Head of House is Neville's predecessor. And remember they WERE both DA. My fanfic wheels are spinning.)
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Barbara J - Oct 23, 2007 8:21 am (#1334 of 1448)
Yay Neville, indeed. He did get his moment in DH, but my favorite Neville moment is still in OoP, yelling STUBEFY! STUBEFY! through his broken, bloody nose. He deserves a happy, happy ending to the story.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 8:23 am (#1335 of 1448)
I also loved, "It's DUBBLEDORE!" in OotP.
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legolas returns - Oct 25, 2007 11:25 am (#1336 of 1448)
Neville began his time at Hogwarts as somewhat inept and not very popular. By the end of the time he has a big band of admirers and is incredibly brave when standing up to Voldemort. Way to go neville! He becomes a teacher, marries Hannah and lives over the leaky cauldron. Pretty cool!
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Winky Woo - Nov 13, 2007 8:17 am (#1337 of 1448)
My favourite place in the world, the English Lake District
Yea for Neville! I second what Legolas has written.
It has been a joy to watch him grow through out the 7 books. Many peoples personalities are glimpsed when they are younger, but they never have the opportunity to truly blossom until much later in their lives.
I think this another subtle message from JKR about not judging people too soon, and gives hope than it doesn't matter if you aren't the smartest or most popular person in school, you can still come into your own and make a difference. Just be true to yourself.
Love Winky x
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Denise P. - Nov 13, 2007 9:19 am (#1338 of 1448)
Ravenclaw Pony
I really like how we were able to see him grow and come into his own through the course of the books. It was nice to see him blossom and grow when JKR could have just left him to be the pathetic bumbling boy who tries but always falls short.
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totyle - Nov 13, 2007 6:58 pm (#1339 of 1448)
Denise P :It was nice to see him blossom and grow when JKR could have just left him to be the pathetic bumbling boy who tries but always falls short.
Oh Yes..totally agree! I was actually very much frustrated that in GoF we still see poor Neville as someone who couldn't get the date he wanted for the Yule Ball and kept stepping on Ginny's toes during the dance. The movie version is what I keep in mind because that actually is a much better progression of his character and it is sooooo satisfying that Neville outshone the other boys in dancing. And again in Ootp she made him a pathetic bumbling boy who broke his nose and could not utter the spells properly. It's like he was marked as pathetic by JKR and was going to remain so. So, I was SO VERY HAPPY when JKR finally gave him the break he so much deserves. I simply loved Neville in DH.
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Soul Search - Mar 25, 2008 12:53 pm (#1340 of 1448)
I was listening to SS and it occurred to me there was no mention of Neville's toad Trevor in Deathly Hallows. Then I wondered about HBP; I couldn't recall any mention of Trevor, but I will have to listen again to make sure. The last mention of Trevor I can recall is on the train at the beginning of OotP. There, Neville is in his usually bumbling form, demonstrated with help from Trevor.
What I am working up to is that OotP starts off with a bumbling Neville but progresses to a more confident, capable Neville. In Deathly Hallows Neville has come into his own, but Trevor is not in Deathly Hallows. Does JKR use Trevor the toad to indicate Neville's "bumblelingness?"
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wynnleaf - Mar 26, 2008 5:45 am (#1341 of 1448)
That's a good catch. By the end of OOTP, Neville is willing to even go up against someone like Bellatrix. Trevor evokes the "Neville as naive, fearful, bumbling kid" which no longer fits his character. Neville is growing up at the end of OOTP and of course by DH he is, in my opinion, more mature, dependable, and capable than almost any of the teenage characters. More so, for instance (in my opinion) than Ron. So where ever Trevor is, he is no longer appropriate as a "prop" to augment Neville's character.
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PeskyPixie - Mar 26, 2008 7:02 am (#1342 of 1448)
Maybe the new Neville has a better grip on Trevor and therefore no longer loses him?
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haymoni - Mar 29, 2008 7:31 am (#1343 of 1448)
Maybe Trevor bit the dust.
I mean, if "a common garden rat" wasn't supposed to live long, how long does a toad live?
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Orion - Mar 29, 2008 12:19 pm (#1344 of 1448)
Toads get 10 years, 15 years old. I'm a member of Friends Of The Earth and carry the little gits over the road every year, and I've been told that some of them are real methusalems. Trevor was a too childish accessory for Neville in the end. He (Trevor) served as a reminder how clumsy Neville was, and when Neville wasn't clumsy any more, Trevor didn't fit into the picture any more.
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Chemyst - Mar 29, 2008 5:40 pm (#1345 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
... or maybe Umbridge caught Trevor doing a comedic impersonation and she turned him into hors d'oeuvres.
It is curious that Trevor would just hop away without any mention, (Crookshanks, too.)
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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 29, 2008 9:29 pm (#1346 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Crookshanks was left at the Wesleys, ... I think.
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jose043 - Mar 29, 2008 11:03 pm (#1347 of 1448)
Chemyst - LOL glad we were not drinking any water at the time of your post. We could see Umbridge catching Trevor and turning him into hors d' oeuvres, as she was a very nasty peace of medicine.
Josephine & Anne
Little Werewolves of London
The Moon made me do it.
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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2008 11:03 am (#1348 of 1448)
Librarian
Just a few comments about similarities between Neville and Harry. Mostly for my own memory. Most of this is a repeat of an earlier posting, over a year ago, but I have a couple of updates.
Harry and Neville:
Could each have been meant by the Prophecy Were born a day apart Both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions Both true Gryffindors (The sword came to each.) In the Forbidden Forest together as a punishment Each have their right arms broken while on broomsticks (Technically crashing broomsticks.) Both dated Ginny Have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell, Neville by Dolohov and Hermione, Harry by Draco Both can see Thestrals Snape hates both Both have been hit by the Petrificus Totalus spell, Neville by Hermione and Harry by Draco, again Both have led rebellions/resistance movements at Hogwarts Both faced Voldemort in battle
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shepherdess - Mar 31, 2008 12:00 pm (#1349 of 1448)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I think also, early in their lives they were both a little unsure about their place in the wizarding world, but grew to be very powerful wizards, confident in their abilities to do what was required of them.
The difference, of course, being that Harry was carrying around a piece of Voldemort's soul.
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Julia H. - Mar 31, 2008 12:04 pm (#1350 of 1448)
Both loved a mother who could not bring them up.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
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Neville Longbottom II (Post 1351 to 1400)
Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:41 am
Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2008 12:42 pm (#1351 of 1448)
Librarian
AAAAAAAAAAHHH, I forgot to put in the spacing! Rats!
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Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2008 8:50 am (#1352 of 1448)
Librarian
I just noticed that I had included Neville being hit with the Tarantallegra spell by Hermione. Not right. I had included a list and Hermione is the one who does the Petrificus Totalus spell. I got it right later.
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Elanor - Apr 1, 2008 10:21 am (#1353 of 1448)
I have searched a bit and Trevor appears in the HBP again: in chapter 7, "The Slug Club", aboard the Hogwarts Express: first when Neville mentions his new wand:
"We think it was one of the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished next day - oi, come back here, Trevor!" (p.137, Sch. paperback), then a bit later when Romilda Vane arrives :
"indicating Neville's bottom, which was sticking out from under the seat again as he groped around for Trevor" (p.138, Sch.) and again:
"Neville, emerging from under the seat with fluff and dust in his hair and a resigned-looking Trevor in his hand" (p.139).
That's the last mention of Trevor I could find. Hope it helps.
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Soul Search - Apr 1, 2008 10:48 am (#1354 of 1448)
Elanor, thanks. That does help. So, the beginning of HBP was the last we see of Trevor. Of course, Neville doesn't have that much of a role in HBP.
I haven't found any DH references, but we only see Neville at the end and circumstances wouldn't reasonably include a toad.
I also can't recall any reference to Arnold in DH.
We do see Hedwig (sadly), Pigwidgeon, and Crookshanks.
While many Hogwarts students seem to have owls, I can't recall any reference to any other pets. Scabbers was there to play a key role. Hagrid, of course, had magical creatures upon occasion, but they aren't exactly "pets," and I don't count Fawkes as just a pet.
What I am working up to is Neville having a toad seems to be a bit unique. I do recall a mention that toads went out of style a long time ago (I think from Draco.) I can't imagine toads being "in style." My recollection from finding toads as a young boy is that there was always a certain risk when picking them up.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 10:50 am (#1355 of 1448)
There was a particularly nasty boy named Trevor in many of my classes in high school. It made me despise the name ... until this charming little toad and his stubborn little quests for freedom changed my mind. I love Trevor the toad ('resigned-looking', hee, hee) and miss him greatly in DH, although I understand the symbolism behind Trevor's absence in Neville's life at this point.
Still, for all we know, Trevor may well be chilling in the Gryffindor common room. We just don't see him as he is not relevant to the parts of the story when we see Neville in DH.
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Orion - Apr 1, 2008 1:23 pm (#1356 of 1448)
When Neville got heroic in DH, he must have been so preoccupied that Trevor escaped for good. Maybe he made it to the Forbidden Forest, grew and ate naughty first years. Darwinism assumes many shapes.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 2:11 pm (#1357 of 1448)
Maybe Trevor the liberated toad ate up nasty Trevor from my schooldays!
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 1, 2008 4:25 pm (#1358 of 1448)
I believe it was Hagrid who advised Harry not to get a toad because they were out of style. Neville's possession of a toad right away marks him as a misfit. I wonder if he chose a toad, or if Gram bought it not realizing that they were unfashionable. Or maybe it was the cheapest type of pet, and she didn't want him to lose anything more expensive.
I've thought of another Harry/Neville parallel, though it's not as symmetrical as those already given here. In PS/SS, Harry rejects Neville's "invitation" to hang with the right sort out of loyalty to Ron, although he barely knows Ron and hasn't yet established a close friendship. In OotP, Neville speaks up for Harry, although they're not close friends, when Seamus is ready to toe the Ministry line. They'll both do what's right, even when no personal loyalties are at stake, and when popular acceptance can be gained.
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Solitaire - Apr 1, 2008 7:57 pm (#1359 of 1448)
I thought Uncle Algie bought the toad for Neville.
Harry rejects Neville's "invitation" to hang with the right sort
Wasn't it Draco who told Harry he didn't want to go "making friends with the wrong sort"? I believe it was just before Wormtail bit Goyle!
Solitaire
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Barbara J - Apr 1, 2008 8:07 pm (#1360 of 1448)
I usually don't like to speculate, but I think Neville would have kept Trevor in a safe place or set him free, and the reason we didn't see him in DH is that he was happily hopping around somewhere. But it is consistent with the other Harry parallels that neither one of them has a childhood pet in their pocket when they face LV.
For me, though Neville really becomes heroic in OoP, not just DH. I know an earlier post commented that he seemed "bumbling" when he was trying to cast spells with his broken, bloody nose, but I thought that was quintessential Neville...the Neville we see again (not for the first time) in DH.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 8:14 pm (#1361 of 1448)
"I know an earlier post commented that he seemed "bumbling" when he was trying to cast spells with his broken, bloody nose, but I thought that was quintessential Neville...the Neville we see again (not for the first time) in DH." -Barbara J
This sounds very interesting. Do elaborate!
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2008 5:42 am (#1362 of 1448)
Even in PS/SS (Ch. 16), Neville is willing to take a stand. Remember when he tries to stop HRH from leaving, the night they go through the trap door? Okay, he probably knows they will not seriously harm him, but he still attempts to stand up to the three of them. At the leaving feast that first year, Dumbledore recognizes Neville's courage. I guess I think Neville has always been a hero-in-waiting.
Solitaire
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Soul Search - Apr 2, 2008 7:42 am (#1363 of 1448)
"I guess I think Neville has always been a hero-in-waiting." (Solitaire)
I agree. The first instance I recall is the Quiditch match where Neville takes on Crabbe and Goyle. Neville is revealed to be a true Gryffindor, even then.
While there are numerous demonstrations that Neville is a hero, none really work out until Deathly Hallows, where Neville truely comes into his own.
We learn in OotP that Neville also fits the prophecy. Recall our speculation: everything up to and including Neville really being the one who would defeat Voldemort, not Harry. Almost true, since Neville destroyed the last horcrux, allowing Harry to cause Voldemort's final death.
I have found Neville a very interesting literary device. At times a humorous break, a sad victim, a red herring, then ending as a glorious hero.
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Steve Newton - Apr 2, 2008 1:01 pm (#1364 of 1448)
Librarian
I don't know, a bloodied, tarantallegraed Neville telling Harry not to give up the Prophecy seemed pretty heroic to me.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 2, 2008 2:38 pm (#1365 of 1448)
I agree, Steve. Draco is an absolute whiny brat in DH, yet Neville is willing to face his parents' fate in order to keep the prophecy out of Voldy's hands. Very heroic. Especially for a fifteen-year-old who understands the extreme brutality Death Eaters are capable of.
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rambkowalczyk - Apr 2, 2008 6:00 pm (#1366 of 1448)
Not to sound to pessimistic here, but it's very possible that Trevor met the same fate as Hedwig. Death by Death Eaters. I doubt if Neville left Trevor with Gran in his seventh year and it would be just like the Carrows to teach Neville a lesson by killing his toad.
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 2, 2008 6:48 pm (#1367 of 1448)
Soli, of course it was Draco who made the "invitation," not Neville. I must have been mentally already in bed when I made that blooper.
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2008 8:59 pm (#1368 of 1448)
Ramb, that sounds absolutely plausible to me.
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Chemyst - Apr 3, 2008 5:45 am (#1369 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Ramb, my sole objection to that is that I think free-style Trevor could have hopped away on his own. Hedwig was caged.
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Barbara J - Apr 5, 2008 10:54 am (#1370 of 1448)
Pesky, the wizarding world seems more tolerant of physical injury and some kinds of brutality than we are (we tolerate and even enjoy rugby, but we don't encourage kids to play it the way professionals do) - even within the WW, though, some people experience more of it than others - Harry and Neville are not strangers to pain, but both of them "play through it." In DH, where we see Neville wounded but still resisting, it's easy to see him as heroic - but I think he was just as heroic in OoP. Perhaps the scene was a little funnier than what we learn was happening DH (stubefy! stubefy!) but the persistence against nearly certain failure is there. That's what I meant by not seeing "heroic" Neville for the first time in DH. [ETA: Sorry I cannot always keep up with these discussions! I know my response is a little late.]
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 8:44 am (#1371 of 1448)
Poor Neville can't have had it easy growing up with Gran and Uncle Algie. Imagine always being compared to his father ... and being found wanting. And with his father out of commission, the "legend" was probably even more talented than the actual man. At Hogwarts, Neville seems to find his niche with the "misfits" (Harry, Hermione, even Ron, to an extent). The interesting thing is that these "misfits" seem to find more adventure and more opportunities of proving themselves than the other Hogwarts students. It's obvious from year one that sticking by Harry is going to be dangerous--even unpopular with other Hogwarts kids--but Neville remains a loyal supporter.
In DH, when it appears Harry is gone, Neville takes up the cause he believes Harry would have taken and heads the "resistance." He even manages to pull in supporters, despite the reluctance of many kids to step up to the plate in the past. He doesn't know when or if Harry will return, but he stands strong and continues to fight the odds. The interesting thing about Neville is that he doesn't seem too concerned about what people think of him. He is not trying to make a name for himself or prove that people have been wrong about him in the past. He just does what he believes to be the right thing. He is a real hero.
Solitaire
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PeskyPixie - Apr 6, 2008 9:08 am (#1372 of 1448)
Even in OotP, Neville's faith in Harry never waivers.
I'd never thought of it before, but even Ron has a few moments when he loses faith in Harry, but Neville never turns away from him. I understand Ron's 'demons' and admire him for overcoming them, but find Neville to be an even worthier Gryffindor for his ability to not allow his own difficult upbringing taint his view of others. Really, Harry and Neville are both naturally 'good'; Voldy is toast from the moment both are born.
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 9:14 am (#1373 of 1448)
Voldy is toast from the moment both are born. Yep!
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Orion - Apr 6, 2008 9:43 am (#1374 of 1448)
I wonder what Neville would have seen when the locket Horcrux had opened for him?
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 10:33 am (#1375 of 1448)
Hmmmmm ... possibly Bellatrix torturing him like she did his parents???
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Barbara J - Apr 6, 2008 6:30 pm (#1376 of 1448)
I think he would see Bellatrix torturing his parents.
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Orion - Apr 7, 2008 7:58 am (#1377 of 1448)
Yes, and taunting him about it. So what the locket Horcrux shows isn't necessarily the same as your boggart. Too bad we never learned what Ron's boggart was. (Or did we? I can't remember such a thing.)
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Swedish Short-Snout - Apr 7, 2008 8:05 am (#1378 of 1448)
"Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon"
Ron's boggart was a spider in PA, Orion.
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Orion - Apr 7, 2008 8:27 am (#1379 of 1448)
Oh, really? Thanks, SSS, you're a fountain of knowledge. Isn't that curious? A boggart can be something serious as well, if you think of Molly's boggart in OOP. Yet every person seems to have a whole set of nightmares.
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Solitaire - Apr 7, 2008 7:01 pm (#1380 of 1448)
Orion, it's possible that what Neville feared changed over the years. Remember that when he faced the boggart in PoA, Bella was locked up in Azkaban. At that time, Snape's tormenting and Gran's disapproval were his biggest boggarts. By DH, Bella is on the loose--he has even faced her in battle--and has become a very real threat. Also, Gran has also begun to understand that Neville has more on the ball than she suspected.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 7, 2008 7:11 pm (#1381 of 1448)
Librarian
I could be wrong but I don't think that Neville was afraid of Bellatrix. Angry and vengeful would more than fill the bill. I only remember him being afraid of embarassment never any sort of physical danger. After all he attacked Crabbe and Goyle as a 12 year old and went toe to toe with Voldemort as a 17 year old.
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Anna L. Black - Apr 7, 2008 10:53 pm (#1382 of 1448)
I agree, Steve. She did torture him for a while in the DOM, during which he stood bravely against her (and told Harry not to surrender the Prophecy...).
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 10, 2008 5:14 pm (#1383 of 1448)
If Neville had seen the inside of the locket, I believe he would have seen his parents taunting him about being a disappointment. The belief that he was an inadequate near-squib in contrast to his heroic parents must have haunted him the way Ron was haunted by his fears that his mother and best friends thought meanly of him.
Soli, I love your comment about Neville not seeking praise or approval, but just doing what he believes is right. It makes so much sense that after his heroics in DH, he was content to take the Herbology position at Hogwarts. He didn't need or want a glamorous or high-profile job; he just wanted a job where he could do good work and make important, albeit uncelebrated contributions to the WW.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 5:46 pm (#1384 of 1448)
If Severus had lived, it would have been funny to see him interact with Neville as a staff member. It would be Lupin on staff all over again. Imagine if Neville decided to call him 'Severus'?
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Solitaire - Apr 10, 2008 8:00 pm (#1385 of 1448)
Hm ... how about Sev? Severus sounds so formal!
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 8:29 pm (#1386 of 1448)
***snickers***
Neville (at the staff table in the Great Hall): "Hey, Sev, pass the potatoes, will you?"
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 10:15 pm (#1387 of 1448)
Edited Apr 10, 2008 11:56 pm
Pesky, weren't you the one telling me how rude it seemed to be to you to call a former teacher of ours by his/her first name? :-)
"Sev" would probably have been out of the question (that was Lily's privilege) but a post-Voldemort Snape might not have minded Neville as a person.
Perhaps Snape would have been called "Headmaster" if he had lived...
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 11:11 pm (#1388 of 1448)
"Pesky, weren't you the one telling me how rude it seemed to be to you to call a former teacher of ours by his/her first name?" -Julia H.
Of course! I'm just going along with the rules JKR has set up in her world for the sake of a snicker.
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 11:30 pm (#1389 of 1448)
But "Sev" would be something like Snape calling McGonagall "Minnie" or McGonagall calling Dumbledore .. hm .. "Al"(?).
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 11:50 pm (#1390 of 1448)
It was just a joke. I don't think Soli and I were being serious.
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 11:57 pm (#1391 of 1448)
I know! :-)
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Orion - Apr 11, 2008 6:56 am (#1392 of 1448)
Al!!! ROTFL!!!
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PeskyPixie - Apr 11, 2008 7:55 am (#1393 of 1448)
I know! :-)
Good. I thought for a moment that we hadn't been obvious enough.
BTW, the first time I called McGonagall 'Minnie' some of our forum friends let me know that it made them cringe!
'Al' is just wrong; it's one of the many things I hate about the epilogue.
But, back to Neville. It would have been great fun to see him as his former Boggart's colleague!
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Orion - Apr 11, 2008 8:37 am (#1394 of 1448)
Snape would have minded. But he minds everybody, come to think of it. BTW, I'm on first name terms with a number of my former teachers, it doesn't feel weird at all.
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Swedish Short-Snout - Apr 11, 2008 9:40 am (#1395 of 1448)
"Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon"
At first I thought it was weird that they called their teachers 'Professor'. We always call our teachers their first names. Cultural differences...
Back on topic: I think Vox Gerbilis is right about what Neville would have seen in the locket.
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Solitaire - Apr 11, 2008 6:24 pm (#1396 of 1448)
a post-Voldemort Snape might not have minded Neville as a person.
In retrospect, it's a bit easier to understand why Snape sometimes became so annoyed with ineptitude. He knew what lay ahead of these kids, and he probably figured they were toast, if they didn't learn to control their emotions and their magic.
Snape was a master of control, and Harry and Neville were really both ruled by their hearts. Snape had walled his heart off a long time ago, I think, and he was not really able to understand someone so thoroughly good and pure as Neville. And really, we never see any negative character qualities appear in Neville, do we? He never does anything with an ulterior motive. His sacrifices are always pure and from the heart.
Solitaire
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Orion - Apr 12, 2008 1:11 am (#1397 of 1448)
IMO, Snape isn't a master of control, because he freaks out at the slightest provocation. His insecurities prevent him from effectively controlling his emotions. It always seems to me as if he vents his emotions on the children, his inner turmoil and his fears of what lies ahead of him. Neville is an easy target and doesn't strike back, something which makes him the ideal victim. Snape would back down if Neville was a tougher nut to crack.
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Julia H. - Apr 12, 2008 3:06 am (#1398 of 1448)
That is interesting, Solitaire and Orion, two such different interpretations of the same thing and both interpretations seem to be quite probable! Snape is insecure but I think he becomes really upset when somebody does not seem to be able to learn something. His anger may often disguise real concern (he is furious as he asks DD why he had to put on that cursed ring). He seems to be a person who does not stop learning (he learns to fly in the end) and he probably finds constant learning important for success and survival in the fight. A lot of what these children learn in school is mainly about survival but they do not really think about it (and why should they?) before OOTP. At the very first potions lesson, when Snape certainly taunts Harry, he also calls Harry's and everybody's attention with quite an emphasis to something (the bezoar) that can be very useful in various life-threatening situations. I think Snape's "experiment" with Neville's toad and his promise to poison someone to test how much the students know about antidotes are at least partly aimed at making them understand that their lives or others' lives may be at stake one day when they have to use what they learned in school and mistakes will not be permitted. (It is a bit similar to the situation where a student of medicine is told by the professor to imagine that he has to treat his own mother and then asked whether he still would not want to know things a bit better.) It may not (always) be consciously done, it may often be just the anger that these kids just don't seem to be fit to survive.
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haymoni - Apr 12, 2008 7:17 am (#1399 of 1448)
If Neville opened the locket at the same point in time that Ron did, I think he would have seen Bellatrix.
Bellatrix was the cause of his heartbreak.
At first, I thought it might be the Carrows, since they were the enemy at the time, but the Horcrux seems to go deeper than that.
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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2008 7:53 am (#1400 of 1448)
Snape isn't a master of control, because he freaks out at the slightest provocation.
Yes and no, Orion. Snape does blow his stack at the kids quite frequently, something which shows his (IMO) lack of emotional maturity. On the other hand, when he is in the presence of Bella, other DEs, and Voldemort, he is as cool as a cucumber and manages to use his Occlumency to best advantage ... through control. When Snape wants to be in control, he is. Sometimes I think exploding all over the kids is his "safety valve." He can't explode at anyone else without consequences, so he takes advantage here. Of course, I think this is absolutely unfair ... but it's how things appear to me.
it may often be just the anger that these kids just don't seem to be fit to survive.
I think he truly fears for their survival, because he has come to understand that the well-being of the Wizarding World may just depend on the abilities of Harry and his friends. If Harry cannot survive and prevail, it may mean the end of any kind of decent life for those who oppose Voldemort. But we are getting off topic; this is Neville's thread.
Solitaire
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Librarian
AAAAAAAAAAHHH, I forgot to put in the spacing! Rats!
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Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2008 8:50 am (#1352 of 1448)
Librarian
I just noticed that I had included Neville being hit with the Tarantallegra spell by Hermione. Not right. I had included a list and Hermione is the one who does the Petrificus Totalus spell. I got it right later.
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Elanor - Apr 1, 2008 10:21 am (#1353 of 1448)
I have searched a bit and Trevor appears in the HBP again: in chapter 7, "The Slug Club", aboard the Hogwarts Express: first when Neville mentions his new wand:
"We think it was one of the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished next day - oi, come back here, Trevor!" (p.137, Sch. paperback), then a bit later when Romilda Vane arrives :
"indicating Neville's bottom, which was sticking out from under the seat again as he groped around for Trevor" (p.138, Sch.) and again:
"Neville, emerging from under the seat with fluff and dust in his hair and a resigned-looking Trevor in his hand" (p.139).
That's the last mention of Trevor I could find. Hope it helps.
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Soul Search - Apr 1, 2008 10:48 am (#1354 of 1448)
Elanor, thanks. That does help. So, the beginning of HBP was the last we see of Trevor. Of course, Neville doesn't have that much of a role in HBP.
I haven't found any DH references, but we only see Neville at the end and circumstances wouldn't reasonably include a toad.
I also can't recall any reference to Arnold in DH.
We do see Hedwig (sadly), Pigwidgeon, and Crookshanks.
While many Hogwarts students seem to have owls, I can't recall any reference to any other pets. Scabbers was there to play a key role. Hagrid, of course, had magical creatures upon occasion, but they aren't exactly "pets," and I don't count Fawkes as just a pet.
What I am working up to is Neville having a toad seems to be a bit unique. I do recall a mention that toads went out of style a long time ago (I think from Draco.) I can't imagine toads being "in style." My recollection from finding toads as a young boy is that there was always a certain risk when picking them up.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 10:50 am (#1355 of 1448)
There was a particularly nasty boy named Trevor in many of my classes in high school. It made me despise the name ... until this charming little toad and his stubborn little quests for freedom changed my mind. I love Trevor the toad ('resigned-looking', hee, hee) and miss him greatly in DH, although I understand the symbolism behind Trevor's absence in Neville's life at this point.
Still, for all we know, Trevor may well be chilling in the Gryffindor common room. We just don't see him as he is not relevant to the parts of the story when we see Neville in DH.
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Orion - Apr 1, 2008 1:23 pm (#1356 of 1448)
When Neville got heroic in DH, he must have been so preoccupied that Trevor escaped for good. Maybe he made it to the Forbidden Forest, grew and ate naughty first years. Darwinism assumes many shapes.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 2:11 pm (#1357 of 1448)
Maybe Trevor the liberated toad ate up nasty Trevor from my schooldays!
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 1, 2008 4:25 pm (#1358 of 1448)
I believe it was Hagrid who advised Harry not to get a toad because they were out of style. Neville's possession of a toad right away marks him as a misfit. I wonder if he chose a toad, or if Gram bought it not realizing that they were unfashionable. Or maybe it was the cheapest type of pet, and she didn't want him to lose anything more expensive.
I've thought of another Harry/Neville parallel, though it's not as symmetrical as those already given here. In PS/SS, Harry rejects Neville's "invitation" to hang with the right sort out of loyalty to Ron, although he barely knows Ron and hasn't yet established a close friendship. In OotP, Neville speaks up for Harry, although they're not close friends, when Seamus is ready to toe the Ministry line. They'll both do what's right, even when no personal loyalties are at stake, and when popular acceptance can be gained.
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Solitaire - Apr 1, 2008 7:57 pm (#1359 of 1448)
I thought Uncle Algie bought the toad for Neville.
Harry rejects Neville's "invitation" to hang with the right sort
Wasn't it Draco who told Harry he didn't want to go "making friends with the wrong sort"? I believe it was just before Wormtail bit Goyle!
Solitaire
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Barbara J - Apr 1, 2008 8:07 pm (#1360 of 1448)
I usually don't like to speculate, but I think Neville would have kept Trevor in a safe place or set him free, and the reason we didn't see him in DH is that he was happily hopping around somewhere. But it is consistent with the other Harry parallels that neither one of them has a childhood pet in their pocket when they face LV.
For me, though Neville really becomes heroic in OoP, not just DH. I know an earlier post commented that he seemed "bumbling" when he was trying to cast spells with his broken, bloody nose, but I thought that was quintessential Neville...the Neville we see again (not for the first time) in DH.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 1, 2008 8:14 pm (#1361 of 1448)
"I know an earlier post commented that he seemed "bumbling" when he was trying to cast spells with his broken, bloody nose, but I thought that was quintessential Neville...the Neville we see again (not for the first time) in DH." -Barbara J
This sounds very interesting. Do elaborate!
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2008 5:42 am (#1362 of 1448)
Even in PS/SS (Ch. 16), Neville is willing to take a stand. Remember when he tries to stop HRH from leaving, the night they go through the trap door? Okay, he probably knows they will not seriously harm him, but he still attempts to stand up to the three of them. At the leaving feast that first year, Dumbledore recognizes Neville's courage. I guess I think Neville has always been a hero-in-waiting.
Solitaire
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Soul Search - Apr 2, 2008 7:42 am (#1363 of 1448)
"I guess I think Neville has always been a hero-in-waiting." (Solitaire)
I agree. The first instance I recall is the Quiditch match where Neville takes on Crabbe and Goyle. Neville is revealed to be a true Gryffindor, even then.
While there are numerous demonstrations that Neville is a hero, none really work out until Deathly Hallows, where Neville truely comes into his own.
We learn in OotP that Neville also fits the prophecy. Recall our speculation: everything up to and including Neville really being the one who would defeat Voldemort, not Harry. Almost true, since Neville destroyed the last horcrux, allowing Harry to cause Voldemort's final death.
I have found Neville a very interesting literary device. At times a humorous break, a sad victim, a red herring, then ending as a glorious hero.
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Steve Newton - Apr 2, 2008 1:01 pm (#1364 of 1448)
Librarian
I don't know, a bloodied, tarantallegraed Neville telling Harry not to give up the Prophecy seemed pretty heroic to me.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 2, 2008 2:38 pm (#1365 of 1448)
I agree, Steve. Draco is an absolute whiny brat in DH, yet Neville is willing to face his parents' fate in order to keep the prophecy out of Voldy's hands. Very heroic. Especially for a fifteen-year-old who understands the extreme brutality Death Eaters are capable of.
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rambkowalczyk - Apr 2, 2008 6:00 pm (#1366 of 1448)
Not to sound to pessimistic here, but it's very possible that Trevor met the same fate as Hedwig. Death by Death Eaters. I doubt if Neville left Trevor with Gran in his seventh year and it would be just like the Carrows to teach Neville a lesson by killing his toad.
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 2, 2008 6:48 pm (#1367 of 1448)
Soli, of course it was Draco who made the "invitation," not Neville. I must have been mentally already in bed when I made that blooper.
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2008 8:59 pm (#1368 of 1448)
Ramb, that sounds absolutely plausible to me.
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Chemyst - Apr 3, 2008 5:45 am (#1369 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Ramb, my sole objection to that is that I think free-style Trevor could have hopped away on his own. Hedwig was caged.
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Barbara J - Apr 5, 2008 10:54 am (#1370 of 1448)
Pesky, the wizarding world seems more tolerant of physical injury and some kinds of brutality than we are (we tolerate and even enjoy rugby, but we don't encourage kids to play it the way professionals do) - even within the WW, though, some people experience more of it than others - Harry and Neville are not strangers to pain, but both of them "play through it." In DH, where we see Neville wounded but still resisting, it's easy to see him as heroic - but I think he was just as heroic in OoP. Perhaps the scene was a little funnier than what we learn was happening DH (stubefy! stubefy!) but the persistence against nearly certain failure is there. That's what I meant by not seeing "heroic" Neville for the first time in DH. [ETA: Sorry I cannot always keep up with these discussions! I know my response is a little late.]
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 8:44 am (#1371 of 1448)
Poor Neville can't have had it easy growing up with Gran and Uncle Algie. Imagine always being compared to his father ... and being found wanting. And with his father out of commission, the "legend" was probably even more talented than the actual man. At Hogwarts, Neville seems to find his niche with the "misfits" (Harry, Hermione, even Ron, to an extent). The interesting thing is that these "misfits" seem to find more adventure and more opportunities of proving themselves than the other Hogwarts students. It's obvious from year one that sticking by Harry is going to be dangerous--even unpopular with other Hogwarts kids--but Neville remains a loyal supporter.
In DH, when it appears Harry is gone, Neville takes up the cause he believes Harry would have taken and heads the "resistance." He even manages to pull in supporters, despite the reluctance of many kids to step up to the plate in the past. He doesn't know when or if Harry will return, but he stands strong and continues to fight the odds. The interesting thing about Neville is that he doesn't seem too concerned about what people think of him. He is not trying to make a name for himself or prove that people have been wrong about him in the past. He just does what he believes to be the right thing. He is a real hero.
Solitaire
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PeskyPixie - Apr 6, 2008 9:08 am (#1372 of 1448)
Even in OotP, Neville's faith in Harry never waivers.
I'd never thought of it before, but even Ron has a few moments when he loses faith in Harry, but Neville never turns away from him. I understand Ron's 'demons' and admire him for overcoming them, but find Neville to be an even worthier Gryffindor for his ability to not allow his own difficult upbringing taint his view of others. Really, Harry and Neville are both naturally 'good'; Voldy is toast from the moment both are born.
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 9:14 am (#1373 of 1448)
Voldy is toast from the moment both are born. Yep!
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Orion - Apr 6, 2008 9:43 am (#1374 of 1448)
I wonder what Neville would have seen when the locket Horcrux had opened for him?
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2008 10:33 am (#1375 of 1448)
Hmmmmm ... possibly Bellatrix torturing him like she did his parents???
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Barbara J - Apr 6, 2008 6:30 pm (#1376 of 1448)
I think he would see Bellatrix torturing his parents.
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Orion - Apr 7, 2008 7:58 am (#1377 of 1448)
Yes, and taunting him about it. So what the locket Horcrux shows isn't necessarily the same as your boggart. Too bad we never learned what Ron's boggart was. (Or did we? I can't remember such a thing.)
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Swedish Short-Snout - Apr 7, 2008 8:05 am (#1378 of 1448)
"Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon"
Ron's boggart was a spider in PA, Orion.
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Orion - Apr 7, 2008 8:27 am (#1379 of 1448)
Oh, really? Thanks, SSS, you're a fountain of knowledge. Isn't that curious? A boggart can be something serious as well, if you think of Molly's boggart in OOP. Yet every person seems to have a whole set of nightmares.
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Solitaire - Apr 7, 2008 7:01 pm (#1380 of 1448)
Orion, it's possible that what Neville feared changed over the years. Remember that when he faced the boggart in PoA, Bella was locked up in Azkaban. At that time, Snape's tormenting and Gran's disapproval were his biggest boggarts. By DH, Bella is on the loose--he has even faced her in battle--and has become a very real threat. Also, Gran has also begun to understand that Neville has more on the ball than she suspected.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 7, 2008 7:11 pm (#1381 of 1448)
Librarian
I could be wrong but I don't think that Neville was afraid of Bellatrix. Angry and vengeful would more than fill the bill. I only remember him being afraid of embarassment never any sort of physical danger. After all he attacked Crabbe and Goyle as a 12 year old and went toe to toe with Voldemort as a 17 year old.
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Anna L. Black - Apr 7, 2008 10:53 pm (#1382 of 1448)
I agree, Steve. She did torture him for a while in the DOM, during which he stood bravely against her (and told Harry not to surrender the Prophecy...).
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Vox Gerbilis - Apr 10, 2008 5:14 pm (#1383 of 1448)
If Neville had seen the inside of the locket, I believe he would have seen his parents taunting him about being a disappointment. The belief that he was an inadequate near-squib in contrast to his heroic parents must have haunted him the way Ron was haunted by his fears that his mother and best friends thought meanly of him.
Soli, I love your comment about Neville not seeking praise or approval, but just doing what he believes is right. It makes so much sense that after his heroics in DH, he was content to take the Herbology position at Hogwarts. He didn't need or want a glamorous or high-profile job; he just wanted a job where he could do good work and make important, albeit uncelebrated contributions to the WW.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 5:46 pm (#1384 of 1448)
If Severus had lived, it would have been funny to see him interact with Neville as a staff member. It would be Lupin on staff all over again. Imagine if Neville decided to call him 'Severus'?
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Solitaire - Apr 10, 2008 8:00 pm (#1385 of 1448)
Hm ... how about Sev? Severus sounds so formal!
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 8:29 pm (#1386 of 1448)
***snickers***
Neville (at the staff table in the Great Hall): "Hey, Sev, pass the potatoes, will you?"
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 10:15 pm (#1387 of 1448)
Edited Apr 10, 2008 11:56 pm
Pesky, weren't you the one telling me how rude it seemed to be to you to call a former teacher of ours by his/her first name? :-)
"Sev" would probably have been out of the question (that was Lily's privilege) but a post-Voldemort Snape might not have minded Neville as a person.
Perhaps Snape would have been called "Headmaster" if he had lived...
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 11:11 pm (#1388 of 1448)
"Pesky, weren't you the one telling me how rude it seemed to be to you to call a former teacher of ours by his/her first name?" -Julia H.
Of course! I'm just going along with the rules JKR has set up in her world for the sake of a snicker.
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 11:30 pm (#1389 of 1448)
But "Sev" would be something like Snape calling McGonagall "Minnie" or McGonagall calling Dumbledore .. hm .. "Al"(?).
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PeskyPixie - Apr 10, 2008 11:50 pm (#1390 of 1448)
It was just a joke. I don't think Soli and I were being serious.
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Julia H. - Apr 10, 2008 11:57 pm (#1391 of 1448)
I know! :-)
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Orion - Apr 11, 2008 6:56 am (#1392 of 1448)
Al!!! ROTFL!!!
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PeskyPixie - Apr 11, 2008 7:55 am (#1393 of 1448)
I know! :-)
Good. I thought for a moment that we hadn't been obvious enough.
BTW, the first time I called McGonagall 'Minnie' some of our forum friends let me know that it made them cringe!
'Al' is just wrong; it's one of the many things I hate about the epilogue.
But, back to Neville. It would have been great fun to see him as his former Boggart's colleague!
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Orion - Apr 11, 2008 8:37 am (#1394 of 1448)
Snape would have minded. But he minds everybody, come to think of it. BTW, I'm on first name terms with a number of my former teachers, it doesn't feel weird at all.
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Swedish Short-Snout - Apr 11, 2008 9:40 am (#1395 of 1448)
"Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon"
At first I thought it was weird that they called their teachers 'Professor'. We always call our teachers their first names. Cultural differences...
Back on topic: I think Vox Gerbilis is right about what Neville would have seen in the locket.
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Solitaire - Apr 11, 2008 6:24 pm (#1396 of 1448)
a post-Voldemort Snape might not have minded Neville as a person.
In retrospect, it's a bit easier to understand why Snape sometimes became so annoyed with ineptitude. He knew what lay ahead of these kids, and he probably figured they were toast, if they didn't learn to control their emotions and their magic.
Snape was a master of control, and Harry and Neville were really both ruled by their hearts. Snape had walled his heart off a long time ago, I think, and he was not really able to understand someone so thoroughly good and pure as Neville. And really, we never see any negative character qualities appear in Neville, do we? He never does anything with an ulterior motive. His sacrifices are always pure and from the heart.
Solitaire
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Orion - Apr 12, 2008 1:11 am (#1397 of 1448)
IMO, Snape isn't a master of control, because he freaks out at the slightest provocation. His insecurities prevent him from effectively controlling his emotions. It always seems to me as if he vents his emotions on the children, his inner turmoil and his fears of what lies ahead of him. Neville is an easy target and doesn't strike back, something which makes him the ideal victim. Snape would back down if Neville was a tougher nut to crack.
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Julia H. - Apr 12, 2008 3:06 am (#1398 of 1448)
That is interesting, Solitaire and Orion, two such different interpretations of the same thing and both interpretations seem to be quite probable! Snape is insecure but I think he becomes really upset when somebody does not seem to be able to learn something. His anger may often disguise real concern (he is furious as he asks DD why he had to put on that cursed ring). He seems to be a person who does not stop learning (he learns to fly in the end) and he probably finds constant learning important for success and survival in the fight. A lot of what these children learn in school is mainly about survival but they do not really think about it (and why should they?) before OOTP. At the very first potions lesson, when Snape certainly taunts Harry, he also calls Harry's and everybody's attention with quite an emphasis to something (the bezoar) that can be very useful in various life-threatening situations. I think Snape's "experiment" with Neville's toad and his promise to poison someone to test how much the students know about antidotes are at least partly aimed at making them understand that their lives or others' lives may be at stake one day when they have to use what they learned in school and mistakes will not be permitted. (It is a bit similar to the situation where a student of medicine is told by the professor to imagine that he has to treat his own mother and then asked whether he still would not want to know things a bit better.) It may not (always) be consciously done, it may often be just the anger that these kids just don't seem to be fit to survive.
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haymoni - Apr 12, 2008 7:17 am (#1399 of 1448)
If Neville opened the locket at the same point in time that Ron did, I think he would have seen Bellatrix.
Bellatrix was the cause of his heartbreak.
At first, I thought it might be the Carrows, since they were the enemy at the time, but the Horcrux seems to go deeper than that.
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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2008 7:53 am (#1400 of 1448)
Snape isn't a master of control, because he freaks out at the slightest provocation.
Yes and no, Orion. Snape does blow his stack at the kids quite frequently, something which shows his (IMO) lack of emotional maturity. On the other hand, when he is in the presence of Bella, other DEs, and Voldemort, he is as cool as a cucumber and manages to use his Occlumency to best advantage ... through control. When Snape wants to be in control, he is. Sometimes I think exploding all over the kids is his "safety valve." He can't explode at anyone else without consequences, so he takes advantage here. Of course, I think this is absolutely unfair ... but it's how things appear to me.
it may often be just the anger that these kids just don't seem to be fit to survive.
I think he truly fears for their survival, because he has come to understand that the well-being of the Wizarding World may just depend on the abilities of Harry and his friends. If Harry cannot survive and prevail, it may mean the end of any kind of decent life for those who oppose Voldemort. But we are getting off topic; this is Neville's thread.
Solitaire
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Elanor Sat May 07, 2011 10:43 am
Vox Gerbilis - Apr 12, 2008 3:19 pm (#1401 of 1448)
I wouldn't say that Snape blows his stack when he becomes exasperated with the students. There's nothing emotional or out-of-control in his punishments or caustic sarcasm. His reactions are always cold and calculating. Even when his punishments are disproportionate to the offense, and unfair to his "target" students, he's not acting out of rage.
But I would also say that Neville is a very emotionally contained individual. I can't recall any appearance of a CAPSLOCK Neville in the series, or any instance of his acting irrationally or rashly when he's upset. Even when he's frightened, he never loses control of his emotions. I'm not convinced that his performance deficits result from emotional upset. True, he performs worst in Potions, where Snape is always haranguing him, but he doesn't do well in Transfigurations, either. That could just be a matter of learning style: he functions best with the gentle encouragement of a Lupin or Sprout (or Harry in the DA), and worst with the authoritarian approach of a Snape or McGonagall. Probably the combination of Augusta's Victorian child rearing style and years of coping with his parents' tragedy taught him to keep his emotions inside.
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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2008 4:27 pm (#1402 of 1448)
You could be right about Neville keeping his emotions in check. However, I do always see him leading with his heart.
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Chemyst - Apr 12, 2008 4:38 pm (#1403 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I know you all were having a rollicking joke about Professors Snape and Longbottom interacting at the head table, but the joke assumes an awful lot. If Snape had survived, would he be asked to remain as Headmaster after his desertion? …and if so, would he even want to be Headmaster since he doesn't really seem that fond of adolescents and could probably make more galleons as a Potions Master in the private sector? Or any other such number of speculations as would belong to the Snape thread? … But for the purpose of discussing Neville, there are only two:
1. If Snape was no longer at Hogwarts– Well, this was canon and we saw how a little of how it played out in the epilogue.
2. If Snape had remained at Hogwarts– I am not sure Neville would have taken the job. I don't think he'd have wanted a job with Snape as his boss. At least not right away. How about this as a theoretical progression of events: Neville starts his own business as a supplier of magical plants, but because he makes decisions based on his heart rather than cold hard knuts, he is a struggling businessman. Snape tried another year at Hogwarts but just didn't get the respect he needed; so he buys out Neville's inventory as a discounted source for potions ingredients and agrees to throw in a recommendation for Neville to get the Herbology job just before he resigns. Snape could live on in semi-seclusion with his books and potions, just brewing enough werewolf antidote to sell to meet his needs. And then having a psychotic administrator to appease.
Either way, Neville deserves a Snape-free life.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 6:49 pm (#1404 of 1448)
And Snape deserves a Neville-free life.
Seriously, we all love Neville. However, I don't really blame Snape-the-teacher for becoming irritated with a student who can't follow the most basic instructions in a Potions class. From his very first day in Potions, Neville's lack of ability to follow basic instructions results in dangerous situations for his friends. By PoA, I understand where Snape is coming from when he says, "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" Snape cares deeply about knowledge and learning; he is passionate about the 'art' of potion-making. He obviously considers himself to be some sort of artist/scientist/inventor and is beyond annoyed by this kid who is unable to follow step-by-step instructions he has provided. Also, in Snape's eyes, Neville does not make the effort to improve and in Snape's books, this is probably unforgivable.
"I don't think he'd have wanted a job with Snape as his boss." -Chemyst
I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!
ETA: Soli, I'm taking part of your post (#1397) over to the Snape thread to discuss.
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Chemyst - Apr 12, 2008 7:26 pm (#1405 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
He obviously considers himself to be some sort of artist/scientist/inventor and is beyond annoyed by this kid who is unable to follow step-by-step instructions he has provided.
Hmm… I didn't see' teacher' or 'educator' on that list.
Oh, I'd be such a good teacher if only my students weren't too stupid to follow my directions!
Snape came to Hogwarts for Dumbledore's protection, and then later stayed to keep his part of the deal for that protection. Times changed and that reason to be there is no longer valid, not even in our hypothetical case. What always was valid though was that students have a right to be educated at Hogwarts. Providing instruction, even instruction in instructions, is part of being a good teacher. So, I disagree that Snape deserved a Neville-free life– teaching the Neville's of the wizarding world were part of his job description.
And I don't want to read any posts that try to convince me that Neville is a better teacher today because he had such a great example of what not to do!
I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!
You are joking, right? The mature Neville does not go looking for confrontation; he tried that briefly in DH and learned from it. He stands his ground when things come to him, but he has too much sense to take a job for such a shallow reason as running flying Snape off.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 8:08 pm (#1406 of 1448)
Chemyst, this belongs more on the Severus Snape thread, however, I think it is common knowledge by now that Snape is not a born educator, especially for those students who have no ability in the classes he teaches. His main function is as Dumbledore's spy when the Dark Lord surely arises once again. However, he is a pro at what he does and any student who gets a chance to learn with him should consider him/herself fortunate.
"Oh, I'd be such a good teacher if only my students weren't too stupid to follow my directions!"
Since when do all of Snape's students fail? Many students learn from Snape and he certainly puts effort into his lessons. Is it wrong to expect dedication and concentration in return?
Neville is a good kid who develops into an outstanding young man, but let's not kid ourselves that he is a poster child for Hogwarts academics. He has areas of strength but is not a well-rounded student. And in truth, I think it is rather idiotic of him to not be able to take his cauldron off the fire before adding porcupine quills as Snape's instructions specify. What else is his instructor supposed to do? Coddle him, perhaps. Instill confidence in him, certainly. But do we really expect that from Snape? The only time we see any form of tenderness from him towards a student is when his student is almost dead (Draco in HBP).
"So, I disagree that Snape deserved a Neville-free life"
The wink beside my statement indicated the joking manner in which I made the comment. I then started my next sentence with the word, "seriously" to further demonstrate the lightheartedness of my previous statement. Please don't put so much seriousness to a comment made in jest. This whole thing of Snape and Neville working together was just a joke between a few of us, nothing more. I couldn't resist a snicker at crabby old Snape's horrified reaction to having Neville on his staff. I found it funny and decided to share. It wasn't meant to be realistic at all because Snape is dead by the end of the series.
And I don't want to read any posts that try to convince me that Neville is a better teacher today because he had such a great example of what not to do!
Well, Chemyst, you should stop reading right about .......... now! () I believe that we are shaped by our experiences in life and how we respond to them. Any teacher will encounter students who have no knack whatsoever in their subject. When Neville encounters such a student he will empathize with Snape. However, a sensitive soul like Neville will most certainly have the patience which Snape lacks. This will be a result of his own kind nature and his firsthand experiences as a student who did not comprehend Potions but had the 'luck' of being taught by a man passionate about them.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 9:43 pm (#1407 of 1448)
"I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!" -myself
"You are joking, right? The mature Neville does not go looking for confrontation; he tried that briefly in DH and learned from it. He stands his ground when things come to him, but he has too much sense to take a job for such a shallow reason as running flying Snape off." -Chemyst
Yes, Chemyst, I'm joking, although I think it best to refrain from it on this thread from now on as it seems that there is far too much room for misinterpretation.
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Solitaire - Apr 13, 2008 7:28 am (#1408 of 1448)
Hmm… I didn't see' teacher' or 'educator' on that list.
Chemyst is right that Snape was at Hogwarts because of a deal he made with Dumbledore. He never really was a teacher; his heart wasn't in it. He was brilliant, to be sure, but--like many of his Muggle counterparts who hold teaching credentials and teaching positions--he despised his charges and felt only contempt for their meager abilities.
Neville, far less academically gifted than Snape, will make a wonderful teacher, I think. He understands what it is like to struggle in school and to be made to feel like an untalented dope. His gentleness and patience will make him beloved by his students. He has also lost some of his self-consciousness, and I'll bet he can laugh at himself well enough. That ability is almost crucial when dealing with preteens and teens--especially if one is occasionally prone to making the occasional gaffe. I think Neville will continue to shine.
Solitaire
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PeskyPixie - Apr 14, 2008 8:32 am (#1409 of 1448)
Neville, far less academically gifted than Snape, will make a wonderful teacher, I think. He understands what it is like to struggle in school and to be made to feel like an untalented dope. His gentleness and patience will make him beloved by his students. He has also lost some of his self-consciousness, and I'll bet he can laugh at himself well enough. That ability is almost crucial when dealing with preteens and teens--especially if one is occasionally prone to making the occasional gaffe. I think Neville will continue to shine. -Solitaire
I think this is similar to my description of Neville as a teacher? No, Snape is not the reason he becomes a good teacher, but those experiences must have some effect on him and enhance his natural ability to feel for his students, especially those who have no gift for Herbology. I agree that Neville's loss of self-consciousness and ability to laugh at himself also assist in becoming a great teacher.
I've addressed your points regarding Snape on the Snape thread.
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shepherdess - Apr 14, 2008 11:16 am (#1410 of 1448)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I am reminded of the poem Children Learn What They Live. If they only hear one thing, they're going to believe it's true. Until he was eleven and went off to school, Neville heard criticism and doubt concerning his abilities, with no opposing opinions being presented to him. So, naturally, he didn't believe he had much ability.
Then he went to Hogwart's and what does he find? Snape treating him just like his family did, or worse (with intimidation). Did his other teachers offer a different perspective? We have no indication of that. McGonagall, didn't treat him badly or discourage him, but how much effort did she put into instilling him with confidence in his abilities? He probably thought she was a fairly nice teacher who was reasonably tolerant of his lack of ability. I'm not sure Sprout did much more.
Now it was obvious that Neville's biggest problem was that he didn't believe in himself. If Snape were any kind of teacher, he would have seen that and tried to help him gain self-confidence. But since Snape is too wrapped in himself and his loss of Lily to be able to think of anyone else, he did exactly the opposite of what Neville needed, and contributed to the only thing Neville ever heard. So Neville continued to believe he wasn't very good magically.
Then the DA started, and Harry taught Neville as if he believed he could succeed. And in that type of environment, Neville was comfortable and therefore able to go beyond what he had done before. That, coupled with Harry's belief in him, showed Neville that he was better than other people had led him to believe. Finally Neville had a different opinion to consider! Now he could choose which he wanted to believe in, and he chose Harry's opinion.
No, I don't think Snape contributed anything to Neville's teaching abilities. I think Harry taught him what a teacher should be. And I think it was Harry's influence that made Neville want to teach.
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haymoni - Apr 14, 2008 8:10 pm (#1411 of 1448)
I'm guessing Professor Sprout might have had something to do with it as well.
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Orion - Apr 15, 2008 5:20 am (#1412 of 1448)
Professor Sprout is quite strict, isn't she? For example in HBP when they tackle the Bubotuber she forbids the trio to chat, and there's really no need for that because you can very well chat when you do work with your hands instead of writing or paying attention. And when she talks it sounds rather brisk. She is a lot like McGonagall, only more energetic and not so sarcastic. Neville likes Herbology because he likes plants and it's an interesting subject for him. If you like a subject, it doesn't matter at all who teaches it. (I always liked painting although I had some atrocious arts teachers.) What's so remarkable about Sprout?
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PeskyPixie - Apr 15, 2008 7:57 am (#1413 of 1448)
I find it poor logic to argue that Neville's experiences at the hands of his Gran and Snape have no effect on the person he grows up to become. If anything, this argument makes him less human and less sensitive to others' actions.
Dark little Severus Snape understands pain and not belonging and is shaped by it. Cold 'emotionless' Tom Riddle is also capable of feeling the hurt of abandonment and reacts negatively to it. Harry Potter is no stranger to loneliness and bullying and his most compassionate feelings as an adolescent and young man are often influenced by his dark experiences.
Similarly, Neville's suffering makes him even more fit to be a truly wonderful teacher. He can completely empathize with his dunderhead students due to his own patience and good nature and also because he himself was a 'dunderhead' in many classes. I don't think Harry's 'teaching' in the DA influences him as greatly because Neville naturally possesses the same patience and kind disposition, although he gains self-confidence in the environment Harry creates in the D.A. meetings. Still, I feel that Bella's escape from Azkaban is a greater factor in his determination to live up to his parents' reputation.
Orion, I agree about Professor Sprout. I actually find her treatment of Harry (early GoF) to be quite petty; I would expect that type of reaction from Snape. For the most part Sprout is a McGonagall and just as Hermione's ability at Transfiguration earns her 'rare' smiles and praise from Minnie McG, Neville's gift at Herbology makes him a favourite of Sprout.
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haymoni - Apr 15, 2008 8:24 pm (#1414 of 1448)
If I like a subject, I generally like the teacher.
I guess that's why I thought Neville may have been influenced by Sprout.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 16, 2008 6:17 am (#1415 of 1448)
I'm sure Neville's self-confidence develops in Herbology, but I feel this has more to do with his own discovery of a subject in which he excels, rather than the teacher's method of teaching.
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Chemyst - Apr 18, 2008 4:43 am (#1416 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I find it poor logic to argue that Neville's experiences at the hands of his Gran and Snape have no effect on the person he grows up to become. ~ Pesky
I haven't read any posts that say this, Pesky. I don't see where anyone has argued that Snape had "no effect" on Neville. I meant only that Snape ought not to be given the credit for making Neville a compassionate teacher. THAT is the claim that would be illogical. If Snape's treatment of Neville made Neville a better, more caring teacher, then it follows that children ought to be regularly mistreated to ensure that they grow into humane adults; and I don't think any well-balanced wizard would condone that. No, the resources of Neville's own heart produced this ability in spite of, not because of.
And, Oh Look! It seems you came to this very conclusion as well when you saw it from another angle: I feel this has more to do with his own discovery of a subject in which he excels, rather than the teacher's method of teaching. Then it was Neville being true to Neville afterall, rather than the contributions of Sprout's methods? Or Snape's.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 18, 2008 7:20 am (#1417 of 1448)
"I don't see where anyone has argued that Snape had "no effect" on Neville." -Chemyst
Let me clarify that I find it illogical to claim that Neville's experiences in Snape's classes do not make him even more sensitive to the feelings of 'dunderheads' when he himself is a teacher. That's what I meant by 'no effect', and I stand by it.
"And, Oh Look! It seems you came to this very conclusion as well when you saw it from another angle: ... Then it was Neville being true to Neville afterall, rather than the contributions of Sprout's methods? Or Snape's." -Chemyst
When did I ever claim that Snape himself should be given credit for Neville's success as a teacher? I can understand if you don't like the character Severus Snape - many people don't - but it's unfair to claim that I've discovered some truth behind Neville and Snape when in fact all I've done is explain my long-standing stance on an issue. Neither Snape nor Sprout inspire Neville to be the teacher he becomes. Neville gains much self-confidence in Sprout's classes as he is finally gifted at a subject, and the teacher looks kindly on him because of this talent. Neville falls to pieces in Snape's classes because he is not adept at Potions and his teacher does not tolerate 'dunderheads' and even lashes out at them verbally. Neville is naturally good, kind, etc.. I think he'll always look back fondly on his days in Sprout's classes, but will he be able to forget Snape's classes? Absolutely not. As Neville turns out to be an extremely brave young man, I don't believe he's traumatized by Snape's bitterness either. IMO, Snape will always be a reminder to him to never lose the patience and tolerance he naturally possesses, even in the most trying of situations.
"If Snape's treatment of Neville made Neville a better, more caring teacher, then it follows that children ought to be regularly mistreated to ensure that they grow into humane adults; and I don't think any well-balanced wizard would condone that. No, the resources of Neville's own heart produced this ability in spite of, not because of." -Chemyst
My view is clearly stated in my previous post that many of the characters go through negative experiences in life; each reacts differently and it is who they are inside which creates the mould for the adults they will become. This is no great revelation to me; it's what I've always believed.
I'm not extreme in my thinking. Snape's treatment of Neville does not make him a guiding influence in Neville's teaching career. Also, acknowledgement that Neville himself is the type of person to find something positive even in a negative experience and remember it his whole life does not mean that that all children should be tortured to become good adults. Actually, I don't know how this claim even entered this discussion as I don't recall anybody arguing it.
ETA: Neville must eventually know of 'The Prince's Tale'. I think he too learns to appreciate Snape for what he was rather than eternally despise him for what he was not.
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Julia H. - Jun 17, 2008 11:32 am (#1418 of 1448)
I don't think there is a separate thread for Neville's family members, so I'll just ask this question here: Is there anyone else besides me who by the little we know about Augusta and Algie is reminded of Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth of Blandings Castle?
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tandaradei - Jun 17, 2008 4:58 pm (#1419 of 1448)
Reference Librarian
Never read Wodehouse, would you please enlighten? That might prove a very useful analogy.
Actually, I feel I may have misread Neville as I've misread Snape. Now in SS/PS, both the Sorting Hat and Dumbledore award him for bravery, which in the persona of that narrative it sounds a bit bizaare; but after HP who would argue? I'm truly wondering if Jo kept Harry (and us through Harry) in the dark about the true Neville, even from the beginning. Things like lost Trevors and rebellious broomsticks, now make me think we were to construct a two-dimensional, knee-jerk summary of Neville, and never mind that he visited his traumatized parents regularly -- brave thing to do, braver the more consistently he does it.
The family strikes me as eccentric, within which much of what Harry first notices about Neville sounds perfectly "normal" for a growing boy. Remember in OoP where Neville readily deconstructs and "analyzes" his dreams, but where Harry avoids such uneasy things?? What's bravery? In the series readalong I really intend to look into things like this.
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Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2008 6:28 pm (#1420 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville shows unswerving bravery and decisive action throughout the series. From standing up to his friends, singlehandedly fighting Crabbe and Goyle to facing Voldemort alone he was showing his strength. With just a tad of nebbish thrown in.
He also seems to have no luck with pets and plants. Trevor keeps trying to escape and, it seems, eventually succeeded and the mimbullus mimbletonia seems to have disappeared somewhere before DH.
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Solitaire - Jun 17, 2008 9:59 pm (#1421 of 1448)
Julia, somewhere in the archives, I believe, is a thread for Alice and Frank Longbottom. I'm not sure whether it is still accessible, but one of the hosts will know.
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Dryleaves - Jun 18, 2008 12:38 am (#1422 of 1448)
Actually, I feel I may have misread Neville as I've misread Snape. (tandaradei)
From very early on I though that both Neville and Snape would turn out to be "better" than they appeared to be, but I think that is more due to a weakness for anti-heroes from my part than reading in the "right" way. I think both Neville and Snape do things throughout the series that contradict the way in which they are portrayed through Harry's eyes. "What is bravery?" is a very good question to keep in mind in the series readalong. Neville is brave in a lot of different ways throughout the series, I think. He is also a boy who has a troublesome childhood. His parents are mentally ill and his grandmother and great-uncle sometimes treat him in a really bad way, they even cross the line to child-abuse, when they are worried that he might be a squib. (I think they love him, though, but misdirect their concern for him.) Another thing to keep in mind in a readalong could be the limits of the third-person narrative, how it makes us judge characters, such as Neville and Snape, and what "between the lines" do contradict the third-person point of view.
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mona amon - Jun 18, 2008 7:00 am (#1423 of 1448)
Is there anyone else besides me who by the little we know about Augusta and Algie is reminded of Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth of Blandings Castle? (Julia)
Er, Julia, why do you think so? I'm a big fan of Wodehouse and have read the Blandings books several times, but I can't see any resemblance?
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Julia H. - Jun 18, 2008 8:08 am (#1424 of 1448)
I don't know, they seem to be caricatures. Algie seems to be well-meaning but dangerously absent-minded (hanging the kid out of the window as a way of testing his abilities, then forgetting about him because of - what is it a biscuit or something?). Augusta is this impressive-looking, strong-willed woman, who rules and frightens at least some of her family members, - given what happens to Dawlish when he wants to capture her, I would not be surprised if some adult family members found her kind of awesome as well... Then they are a pure-blood family, so I can imagine they are a bit aristocratic, too. Augusta seems to have a certain family pride. Of course, Neville's family has this tragic aspect that is entirely missing from Wodehouse but JKR does seem to like mixing tragedy and comedy. (BTW, Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth have a sister called Hermione!)
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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2008 10:08 am (#1425 of 1448)
Augusta just seems like the typical "rules with an iron hand" matriarch of an old, aristocratic family. She is used to being treated with respect--and possibly a bit of awe--and if she and Dawlish had been Muggles, I believe she would probably have whacked him in the head with her handbag and either "kneed" him or jabbed him in the eye with her long, pointed fingernail file (like my mom carries) if he tried to "bring her in." JM2K, though ...
Maybe (again, I have no proof for this) Great Uncle Algie is Augusta's "sponge" of a younger brother, who moved in with her when he ran through all of his own money. If Great Aunt Enid is his wife, perhaps they just all live together in the family manor. Anyway, his treatment of Neville when he was younger does not sound like something Gran would have appreciated, had she known. I suspect Uncle Algie is probably a bit of a "ne'er-do-well." Again, JM2K ...
Solitaire
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haymoni - Jun 19, 2008 6:18 pm (#1426 of 1448)
I just wanna know what happened to Trevor. I really hoped he was going to be an Animagus or at least a bit magical - something!!
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2008 8:22 pm (#1427 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Stringer - Jul 31, 2008 10:56 am (#1428 of 1448)
May I wish Professor Longbottom a belated Happy Birthday!
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Steve Newton - Aug 18, 2008 7:14 am (#1429 of 1448)
Librarian
Way back in post 1345 I listed these parallels between Harry and Neville:
Could each have been meant by the Prophecy Were born a day apart Both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions Both true Gryffindors (The sword came to each.) In the Forbidden Forest together as a punishment Each have their right arms broken while on broomsticks (Technically crashing broomsticks.) Both dated Ginny Have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell, Neville by Dolohov and Hermione, Harry by Draco Both can see Thestrals Snape hates both Both have been hit by the Petrificus Totalus spell, Neville by Hermione and Harry by Draco, again Both have led rebellions/resistance movements at Hogwarts Both faced Voldemort in battle
I have another to add. They both have had broomsticks drift into the Forbidden Forest. Neville at the first flying lesson in SS/PS and Harry in POA.
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Solitaire - Aug 22, 2008 5:41 am (#1430 of 1448)
Interesting thoughts, Steve. I also wonder if Harry and Neville are the only two students to have worn the Sorting Hat on an occasion other than sorting. Both also pulled Gryffindor's sword from it, and each used that sword to kill a snake controlled by Voldemort.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Aug 25, 2008 7:45 am (#1431 of 1448)
Librarian
They are certainly the only ones that we have seen.
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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2008 7:42 am (#1432 of 1448)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I am currently listening to Sorceror's Stone on audiotape (I originally had good intentions about doing the read-along, but oh well...) At any rate, I am constantly amazed at the new stuff I pick up on while listening to the books rather than reading them. It truly is a totally different medium for me and I find tons more stuff that I had missed in many previous readings; I highly recommend trying it if you have the opportunity...
Anyway, at the beginning feast when everyone is sharing stories about their backgrounds, Neville says "...but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages." Now, shouldn't he have said "...the family thought I was a Squib for ages"? Neville knows his parents were both magical. He clearly comes from an all-magical family. Shouldn't he know the difference between a Muggle and a Squib?
Maybe it's just another example of a JKR mini-error -- perhaps she hadn't yet thought of the concept of "squibs" when she wrote the first book. Anyway, it was an oddity I noticed...
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Liz Mann - Sep 13, 2008 7:56 am (#1433 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe he didn't want to use the word Squib to describe himself, after all there is a certain amount of disgust against Squibs in the wizarding world. But really J.K. probably just did it deliberately because she didn't want to introduce the concept of a Squib until CoS.
Someone on the Half-Blood Prince movie thread suggested that Neville might have dyspraxia. What do you guys think?
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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2008 8:00 am (#1434 of 1448)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I think that's a definite possibility! Poor guy...
But then again, I don't know. By the end of the series, he certainly seemed to have out-grown it, as if it were more of a confidence-thing...
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Orion - Sep 13, 2008 11:17 am (#1435 of 1448)
And no wonder if his family has been mopping him up all his life. They are more lethal than the Dursleys because they don't treat Neville like an outsider who doesn't belong to the family. So Neville can't escape, like Harry can, by seeing the funny side of them. Harry can see the Dursleys from the outside. They don't mean anything to him. But for Neville his crazy family is family. It means, if they put him down, he takes it seriously, he has no inner distance to them.
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Solitaire - Sep 13, 2008 12:12 pm (#1436 of 1448)
Do we know the background of Neville's mother, Alice? Could she have been a Half-Blood or Muggle-Born? If so, the Longbottoms might have felt Neville was a "throw-back" to the Muggle side of the family. I know it is mentioned that Neville is Pure-blood, but do we know who Alice's ancestors were? I found Longbottoms on the Black Family crest, but I didn't see a maiden name for Alice. Just wondering ...
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Sep 13, 2008 1:59 pm (#1437 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Alice must have been at least half-blood because if she was Muggle-born then Neville would have been considered half-blood like Harry.
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Solitaire - Sep 13, 2008 2:18 pm (#1438 of 1448)
True ... the "all-Muggle" thing made me wonder, though, so I started checking. Even though Gran doesn't act like the Malfoys regarding non Pure-bloods, the fact that the family believed he might be "all Muggle" makes it sound like there may have been a Muggle somewhere in the family tree. Then again, maybe they felt that, if he didn't show any magical ability, it was better to be thought a Muggle than a Squib. Hard to say ...
Solitaire
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legolas returns - Sep 14, 2008 3:58 am (#1439 of 1448)
Neville is described in the books as "pureblood". If you check out the bit in OOP where Harry finally hears/discusses what the prophesy means.
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PeskyPixie - Sep 21, 2008 1:27 pm (#1440 of 1448)
Alice would have to be more than a Half-Blood for Neville to be considered a Pure-Blood, wouldn't she? We're not told too much about how these things exactly work, but I've heard JKR say that she based it on how the Nazis used to define what made a person Jewish.
I hadn't thought of this before, but the Longbottoms are Blood Traitors, like the Weasleys. Bella says that Blood Traitor is next to Mudblood in her books, so there is some serious hatred there.
I know this is Harry's story, but had Neville been the hero I think we could have expected a great story as well.
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Solitaire - Sep 21, 2008 3:54 pm (#1441 of 1448)
It's hard to say, Pesky. Sometimes I think it's Harry's pluck and determination in the face of what often seem like overwhelming odds that have strengthened Neville. If Neville hadn't met Harry, he might have continued to be intimidated by his own family forever. Neville--like the rest of Harry's real band of supporters--is looked down upon by many in his world. Something in him seems to change a little when Harry tells him he is worth a dozen of Malfoy. I sometimes wonder if that is the first compliment he has ever received.
Anyway, Neville seems to draw hope from Harry's resistance to those who seem to want to squash him down. It's hard to say whether Neville could have done as Harry did, because his family was not of the "You can do it! We have confidence in you!" kind. Harry never even knew anything about Voldemort and what happened, either, until he was eleven. Neville would have heard about it all that time, I expect, from Gran and Uncle Algie.
I'm not sure I've made sense here, but it seems to me that the boys are who and what they are because of how they've been raised. Harry has had to learn those survival skills a bit earlier than Neville. I'm just not sure how Gran and Uncle Algie might have dealt with it all ... and that is what might have made the difference.
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Sep 22, 2008 8:01 am (#1442 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
On a completely different topic, has anyone here read the transcript of a radio interview Jo did in 2000 where she said that she imagined Neville as being blond? I've never imagined him as blond, I always imagined him as having brown hair.
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 22, 2008 7:58 pm (#1443 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Not that one Liz, but I do remember JK being surprised that someone thought Neville had dreadlocks or braids.
I went back to PS/SS to figure out how anyone could get such a strange idea, and noticed that the paragraph immediately following Neville's introduction, Lee Jordan's description follows. That reader simply confused the two characters.
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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2008 6:00 pm (#1444 of 1448)
" ... someone thought Neville had dreadlocks or braids." -Mrs. Sirius
Someone has confused Mr. Longbottom with Mr. Jordan.
It kind of reminds me of the fan who was shocked to see Gary Oldman portraying Sirius in the movies as he had thought that Sirius was of African descent.
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jose043 - Jul 30, 2009 2:05 am (#1445 of 1448)
Happy Birthday Neville, and many more to come.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2009 8:18 am (#1446 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Dryleaves - Jul 30, 2009 10:12 am (#1447 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 30, 2009 1:55 pm (#1448 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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I wouldn't say that Snape blows his stack when he becomes exasperated with the students. There's nothing emotional or out-of-control in his punishments or caustic sarcasm. His reactions are always cold and calculating. Even when his punishments are disproportionate to the offense, and unfair to his "target" students, he's not acting out of rage.
But I would also say that Neville is a very emotionally contained individual. I can't recall any appearance of a CAPSLOCK Neville in the series, or any instance of his acting irrationally or rashly when he's upset. Even when he's frightened, he never loses control of his emotions. I'm not convinced that his performance deficits result from emotional upset. True, he performs worst in Potions, where Snape is always haranguing him, but he doesn't do well in Transfigurations, either. That could just be a matter of learning style: he functions best with the gentle encouragement of a Lupin or Sprout (or Harry in the DA), and worst with the authoritarian approach of a Snape or McGonagall. Probably the combination of Augusta's Victorian child rearing style and years of coping with his parents' tragedy taught him to keep his emotions inside.
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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2008 4:27 pm (#1402 of 1448)
You could be right about Neville keeping his emotions in check. However, I do always see him leading with his heart.
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Chemyst - Apr 12, 2008 4:38 pm (#1403 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I know you all were having a rollicking joke about Professors Snape and Longbottom interacting at the head table, but the joke assumes an awful lot. If Snape had survived, would he be asked to remain as Headmaster after his desertion? …and if so, would he even want to be Headmaster since he doesn't really seem that fond of adolescents and could probably make more galleons as a Potions Master in the private sector? Or any other such number of speculations as would belong to the Snape thread? … But for the purpose of discussing Neville, there are only two:
1. If Snape was no longer at Hogwarts– Well, this was canon and we saw how a little of how it played out in the epilogue.
2. If Snape had remained at Hogwarts– I am not sure Neville would have taken the job. I don't think he'd have wanted a job with Snape as his boss. At least not right away. How about this as a theoretical progression of events: Neville starts his own business as a supplier of magical plants, but because he makes decisions based on his heart rather than cold hard knuts, he is a struggling businessman. Snape tried another year at Hogwarts but just didn't get the respect he needed; so he buys out Neville's inventory as a discounted source for potions ingredients and agrees to throw in a recommendation for Neville to get the Herbology job just before he resigns. Snape could live on in semi-seclusion with his books and potions, just brewing enough werewolf antidote to sell to meet his needs. And then having a psychotic administrator to appease.
Either way, Neville deserves a Snape-free life.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 6:49 pm (#1404 of 1448)
And Snape deserves a Neville-free life.
Seriously, we all love Neville. However, I don't really blame Snape-the-teacher for becoming irritated with a student who can't follow the most basic instructions in a Potions class. From his very first day in Potions, Neville's lack of ability to follow basic instructions results in dangerous situations for his friends. By PoA, I understand where Snape is coming from when he says, "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" Snape cares deeply about knowledge and learning; he is passionate about the 'art' of potion-making. He obviously considers himself to be some sort of artist/scientist/inventor and is beyond annoyed by this kid who is unable to follow step-by-step instructions he has provided. Also, in Snape's eyes, Neville does not make the effort to improve and in Snape's books, this is probably unforgivable.
"I don't think he'd have wanted a job with Snape as his boss." -Chemyst
I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!
ETA: Soli, I'm taking part of your post (#1397) over to the Snape thread to discuss.
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Chemyst - Apr 12, 2008 7:26 pm (#1405 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
He obviously considers himself to be some sort of artist/scientist/inventor and is beyond annoyed by this kid who is unable to follow step-by-step instructions he has provided.
Hmm… I didn't see' teacher' or 'educator' on that list.
Oh, I'd be such a good teacher if only my students weren't too stupid to follow my directions!
Snape came to Hogwarts for Dumbledore's protection, and then later stayed to keep his part of the deal for that protection. Times changed and that reason to be there is no longer valid, not even in our hypothetical case. What always was valid though was that students have a right to be educated at Hogwarts. Providing instruction, even instruction in instructions, is part of being a good teacher. So, I disagree that Snape deserved a Neville-free life– teaching the Neville's of the wizarding world were part of his job description.
And I don't want to read any posts that try to convince me that Neville is a better teacher today because he had such a great example of what not to do!
I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!
You are joking, right? The mature Neville does not go looking for confrontation; he tried that briefly in DH and learned from it. He stands his ground when things come to him, but he has too much sense to take a job for such a shallow reason as running flying Snape off.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 8:08 pm (#1406 of 1448)
Chemyst, this belongs more on the Severus Snape thread, however, I think it is common knowledge by now that Snape is not a born educator, especially for those students who have no ability in the classes he teaches. His main function is as Dumbledore's spy when the Dark Lord surely arises once again. However, he is a pro at what he does and any student who gets a chance to learn with him should consider him/herself fortunate.
"Oh, I'd be such a good teacher if only my students weren't too stupid to follow my directions!"
Since when do all of Snape's students fail? Many students learn from Snape and he certainly puts effort into his lessons. Is it wrong to expect dedication and concentration in return?
Neville is a good kid who develops into an outstanding young man, but let's not kid ourselves that he is a poster child for Hogwarts academics. He has areas of strength but is not a well-rounded student. And in truth, I think it is rather idiotic of him to not be able to take his cauldron off the fire before adding porcupine quills as Snape's instructions specify. What else is his instructor supposed to do? Coddle him, perhaps. Instill confidence in him, certainly. But do we really expect that from Snape? The only time we see any form of tenderness from him towards a student is when his student is almost dead (Draco in HBP).
"So, I disagree that Snape deserved a Neville-free life"
The wink beside my statement indicated the joking manner in which I made the comment. I then started my next sentence with the word, "seriously" to further demonstrate the lightheartedness of my previous statement. Please don't put so much seriousness to a comment made in jest. This whole thing of Snape and Neville working together was just a joke between a few of us, nothing more. I couldn't resist a snicker at crabby old Snape's horrified reaction to having Neville on his staff. I found it funny and decided to share. It wasn't meant to be realistic at all because Snape is dead by the end of the series.
And I don't want to read any posts that try to convince me that Neville is a better teacher today because he had such a great example of what not to do!
Well, Chemyst, you should stop reading right about .......... now! () I believe that we are shaped by our experiences in life and how we respond to them. Any teacher will encounter students who have no knack whatsoever in their subject. When Neville encounters such a student he will empathize with Snape. However, a sensitive soul like Neville will most certainly have the patience which Snape lacks. This will be a result of his own kind nature and his firsthand experiences as a student who did not comprehend Potions but had the 'luck' of being taught by a man passionate about them.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 12, 2008 9:43 pm (#1407 of 1448)
"I'm a bit wary about predicting anything about Neville as he develops into quite a confident little scrapper. If anything, he'd probably take the job and cause Snape to fly away to a different job in a year!" -myself
"You are joking, right? The mature Neville does not go looking for confrontation; he tried that briefly in DH and learned from it. He stands his ground when things come to him, but he has too much sense to take a job for such a shallow reason as running flying Snape off." -Chemyst
Yes, Chemyst, I'm joking, although I think it best to refrain from it on this thread from now on as it seems that there is far too much room for misinterpretation.
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Solitaire - Apr 13, 2008 7:28 am (#1408 of 1448)
Hmm… I didn't see' teacher' or 'educator' on that list.
Chemyst is right that Snape was at Hogwarts because of a deal he made with Dumbledore. He never really was a teacher; his heart wasn't in it. He was brilliant, to be sure, but--like many of his Muggle counterparts who hold teaching credentials and teaching positions--he despised his charges and felt only contempt for their meager abilities.
Neville, far less academically gifted than Snape, will make a wonderful teacher, I think. He understands what it is like to struggle in school and to be made to feel like an untalented dope. His gentleness and patience will make him beloved by his students. He has also lost some of his self-consciousness, and I'll bet he can laugh at himself well enough. That ability is almost crucial when dealing with preteens and teens--especially if one is occasionally prone to making the occasional gaffe. I think Neville will continue to shine.
Solitaire
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PeskyPixie - Apr 14, 2008 8:32 am (#1409 of 1448)
Neville, far less academically gifted than Snape, will make a wonderful teacher, I think. He understands what it is like to struggle in school and to be made to feel like an untalented dope. His gentleness and patience will make him beloved by his students. He has also lost some of his self-consciousness, and I'll bet he can laugh at himself well enough. That ability is almost crucial when dealing with preteens and teens--especially if one is occasionally prone to making the occasional gaffe. I think Neville will continue to shine. -Solitaire
I think this is similar to my description of Neville as a teacher? No, Snape is not the reason he becomes a good teacher, but those experiences must have some effect on him and enhance his natural ability to feel for his students, especially those who have no gift for Herbology. I agree that Neville's loss of self-consciousness and ability to laugh at himself also assist in becoming a great teacher.
I've addressed your points regarding Snape on the Snape thread.
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shepherdess - Apr 14, 2008 11:16 am (#1410 of 1448)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I am reminded of the poem Children Learn What They Live. If they only hear one thing, they're going to believe it's true. Until he was eleven and went off to school, Neville heard criticism and doubt concerning his abilities, with no opposing opinions being presented to him. So, naturally, he didn't believe he had much ability.
Then he went to Hogwart's and what does he find? Snape treating him just like his family did, or worse (with intimidation). Did his other teachers offer a different perspective? We have no indication of that. McGonagall, didn't treat him badly or discourage him, but how much effort did she put into instilling him with confidence in his abilities? He probably thought she was a fairly nice teacher who was reasonably tolerant of his lack of ability. I'm not sure Sprout did much more.
Now it was obvious that Neville's biggest problem was that he didn't believe in himself. If Snape were any kind of teacher, he would have seen that and tried to help him gain self-confidence. But since Snape is too wrapped in himself and his loss of Lily to be able to think of anyone else, he did exactly the opposite of what Neville needed, and contributed to the only thing Neville ever heard. So Neville continued to believe he wasn't very good magically.
Then the DA started, and Harry taught Neville as if he believed he could succeed. And in that type of environment, Neville was comfortable and therefore able to go beyond what he had done before. That, coupled with Harry's belief in him, showed Neville that he was better than other people had led him to believe. Finally Neville had a different opinion to consider! Now he could choose which he wanted to believe in, and he chose Harry's opinion.
No, I don't think Snape contributed anything to Neville's teaching abilities. I think Harry taught him what a teacher should be. And I think it was Harry's influence that made Neville want to teach.
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haymoni - Apr 14, 2008 8:10 pm (#1411 of 1448)
I'm guessing Professor Sprout might have had something to do with it as well.
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Orion - Apr 15, 2008 5:20 am (#1412 of 1448)
Professor Sprout is quite strict, isn't she? For example in HBP when they tackle the Bubotuber she forbids the trio to chat, and there's really no need for that because you can very well chat when you do work with your hands instead of writing or paying attention. And when she talks it sounds rather brisk. She is a lot like McGonagall, only more energetic and not so sarcastic. Neville likes Herbology because he likes plants and it's an interesting subject for him. If you like a subject, it doesn't matter at all who teaches it. (I always liked painting although I had some atrocious arts teachers.) What's so remarkable about Sprout?
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PeskyPixie - Apr 15, 2008 7:57 am (#1413 of 1448)
I find it poor logic to argue that Neville's experiences at the hands of his Gran and Snape have no effect on the person he grows up to become. If anything, this argument makes him less human and less sensitive to others' actions.
Dark little Severus Snape understands pain and not belonging and is shaped by it. Cold 'emotionless' Tom Riddle is also capable of feeling the hurt of abandonment and reacts negatively to it. Harry Potter is no stranger to loneliness and bullying and his most compassionate feelings as an adolescent and young man are often influenced by his dark experiences.
Similarly, Neville's suffering makes him even more fit to be a truly wonderful teacher. He can completely empathize with his dunderhead students due to his own patience and good nature and also because he himself was a 'dunderhead' in many classes. I don't think Harry's 'teaching' in the DA influences him as greatly because Neville naturally possesses the same patience and kind disposition, although he gains self-confidence in the environment Harry creates in the D.A. meetings. Still, I feel that Bella's escape from Azkaban is a greater factor in his determination to live up to his parents' reputation.
Orion, I agree about Professor Sprout. I actually find her treatment of Harry (early GoF) to be quite petty; I would expect that type of reaction from Snape. For the most part Sprout is a McGonagall and just as Hermione's ability at Transfiguration earns her 'rare' smiles and praise from Minnie McG, Neville's gift at Herbology makes him a favourite of Sprout.
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haymoni - Apr 15, 2008 8:24 pm (#1414 of 1448)
If I like a subject, I generally like the teacher.
I guess that's why I thought Neville may have been influenced by Sprout.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 16, 2008 6:17 am (#1415 of 1448)
I'm sure Neville's self-confidence develops in Herbology, but I feel this has more to do with his own discovery of a subject in which he excels, rather than the teacher's method of teaching.
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Chemyst - Apr 18, 2008 4:43 am (#1416 of 1448)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I find it poor logic to argue that Neville's experiences at the hands of his Gran and Snape have no effect on the person he grows up to become. ~ Pesky
I haven't read any posts that say this, Pesky. I don't see where anyone has argued that Snape had "no effect" on Neville. I meant only that Snape ought not to be given the credit for making Neville a compassionate teacher. THAT is the claim that would be illogical. If Snape's treatment of Neville made Neville a better, more caring teacher, then it follows that children ought to be regularly mistreated to ensure that they grow into humane adults; and I don't think any well-balanced wizard would condone that. No, the resources of Neville's own heart produced this ability in spite of, not because of.
And, Oh Look! It seems you came to this very conclusion as well when you saw it from another angle: I feel this has more to do with his own discovery of a subject in which he excels, rather than the teacher's method of teaching. Then it was Neville being true to Neville afterall, rather than the contributions of Sprout's methods? Or Snape's.
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PeskyPixie - Apr 18, 2008 7:20 am (#1417 of 1448)
"I don't see where anyone has argued that Snape had "no effect" on Neville." -Chemyst
Let me clarify that I find it illogical to claim that Neville's experiences in Snape's classes do not make him even more sensitive to the feelings of 'dunderheads' when he himself is a teacher. That's what I meant by 'no effect', and I stand by it.
"And, Oh Look! It seems you came to this very conclusion as well when you saw it from another angle: ... Then it was Neville being true to Neville afterall, rather than the contributions of Sprout's methods? Or Snape's." -Chemyst
When did I ever claim that Snape himself should be given credit for Neville's success as a teacher? I can understand if you don't like the character Severus Snape - many people don't - but it's unfair to claim that I've discovered some truth behind Neville and Snape when in fact all I've done is explain my long-standing stance on an issue. Neither Snape nor Sprout inspire Neville to be the teacher he becomes. Neville gains much self-confidence in Sprout's classes as he is finally gifted at a subject, and the teacher looks kindly on him because of this talent. Neville falls to pieces in Snape's classes because he is not adept at Potions and his teacher does not tolerate 'dunderheads' and even lashes out at them verbally. Neville is naturally good, kind, etc.. I think he'll always look back fondly on his days in Sprout's classes, but will he be able to forget Snape's classes? Absolutely not. As Neville turns out to be an extremely brave young man, I don't believe he's traumatized by Snape's bitterness either. IMO, Snape will always be a reminder to him to never lose the patience and tolerance he naturally possesses, even in the most trying of situations.
"If Snape's treatment of Neville made Neville a better, more caring teacher, then it follows that children ought to be regularly mistreated to ensure that they grow into humane adults; and I don't think any well-balanced wizard would condone that. No, the resources of Neville's own heart produced this ability in spite of, not because of." -Chemyst
My view is clearly stated in my previous post that many of the characters go through negative experiences in life; each reacts differently and it is who they are inside which creates the mould for the adults they will become. This is no great revelation to me; it's what I've always believed.
I'm not extreme in my thinking. Snape's treatment of Neville does not make him a guiding influence in Neville's teaching career. Also, acknowledgement that Neville himself is the type of person to find something positive even in a negative experience and remember it his whole life does not mean that that all children should be tortured to become good adults. Actually, I don't know how this claim even entered this discussion as I don't recall anybody arguing it.
ETA: Neville must eventually know of 'The Prince's Tale'. I think he too learns to appreciate Snape for what he was rather than eternally despise him for what he was not.
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Julia H. - Jun 17, 2008 11:32 am (#1418 of 1448)
I don't think there is a separate thread for Neville's family members, so I'll just ask this question here: Is there anyone else besides me who by the little we know about Augusta and Algie is reminded of Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth of Blandings Castle?
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tandaradei - Jun 17, 2008 4:58 pm (#1419 of 1448)
Reference Librarian
Never read Wodehouse, would you please enlighten? That might prove a very useful analogy.
Actually, I feel I may have misread Neville as I've misread Snape. Now in SS/PS, both the Sorting Hat and Dumbledore award him for bravery, which in the persona of that narrative it sounds a bit bizaare; but after HP who would argue? I'm truly wondering if Jo kept Harry (and us through Harry) in the dark about the true Neville, even from the beginning. Things like lost Trevors and rebellious broomsticks, now make me think we were to construct a two-dimensional, knee-jerk summary of Neville, and never mind that he visited his traumatized parents regularly -- brave thing to do, braver the more consistently he does it.
The family strikes me as eccentric, within which much of what Harry first notices about Neville sounds perfectly "normal" for a growing boy. Remember in OoP where Neville readily deconstructs and "analyzes" his dreams, but where Harry avoids such uneasy things?? What's bravery? In the series readalong I really intend to look into things like this.
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Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2008 6:28 pm (#1420 of 1448)
Librarian
Neville shows unswerving bravery and decisive action throughout the series. From standing up to his friends, singlehandedly fighting Crabbe and Goyle to facing Voldemort alone he was showing his strength. With just a tad of nebbish thrown in.
He also seems to have no luck with pets and plants. Trevor keeps trying to escape and, it seems, eventually succeeded and the mimbullus mimbletonia seems to have disappeared somewhere before DH.
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Solitaire - Jun 17, 2008 9:59 pm (#1421 of 1448)
Julia, somewhere in the archives, I believe, is a thread for Alice and Frank Longbottom. I'm not sure whether it is still accessible, but one of the hosts will know.
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Dryleaves - Jun 18, 2008 12:38 am (#1422 of 1448)
Actually, I feel I may have misread Neville as I've misread Snape. (tandaradei)
From very early on I though that both Neville and Snape would turn out to be "better" than they appeared to be, but I think that is more due to a weakness for anti-heroes from my part than reading in the "right" way. I think both Neville and Snape do things throughout the series that contradict the way in which they are portrayed through Harry's eyes. "What is bravery?" is a very good question to keep in mind in the series readalong. Neville is brave in a lot of different ways throughout the series, I think. He is also a boy who has a troublesome childhood. His parents are mentally ill and his grandmother and great-uncle sometimes treat him in a really bad way, they even cross the line to child-abuse, when they are worried that he might be a squib. (I think they love him, though, but misdirect their concern for him.) Another thing to keep in mind in a readalong could be the limits of the third-person narrative, how it makes us judge characters, such as Neville and Snape, and what "between the lines" do contradict the third-person point of view.
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mona amon - Jun 18, 2008 7:00 am (#1423 of 1448)
Is there anyone else besides me who by the little we know about Augusta and Algie is reminded of Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth of Blandings Castle? (Julia)
Er, Julia, why do you think so? I'm a big fan of Wodehouse and have read the Blandings books several times, but I can't see any resemblance?
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Julia H. - Jun 18, 2008 8:08 am (#1424 of 1448)
I don't know, they seem to be caricatures. Algie seems to be well-meaning but dangerously absent-minded (hanging the kid out of the window as a way of testing his abilities, then forgetting about him because of - what is it a biscuit or something?). Augusta is this impressive-looking, strong-willed woman, who rules and frightens at least some of her family members, - given what happens to Dawlish when he wants to capture her, I would not be surprised if some adult family members found her kind of awesome as well... Then they are a pure-blood family, so I can imagine they are a bit aristocratic, too. Augusta seems to have a certain family pride. Of course, Neville's family has this tragic aspect that is entirely missing from Wodehouse but JKR does seem to like mixing tragedy and comedy. (BTW, Lady Constance and Lord Emsworth have a sister called Hermione!)
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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2008 10:08 am (#1425 of 1448)
Augusta just seems like the typical "rules with an iron hand" matriarch of an old, aristocratic family. She is used to being treated with respect--and possibly a bit of awe--and if she and Dawlish had been Muggles, I believe she would probably have whacked him in the head with her handbag and either "kneed" him or jabbed him in the eye with her long, pointed fingernail file (like my mom carries) if he tried to "bring her in." JM2K, though ...
Maybe (again, I have no proof for this) Great Uncle Algie is Augusta's "sponge" of a younger brother, who moved in with her when he ran through all of his own money. If Great Aunt Enid is his wife, perhaps they just all live together in the family manor. Anyway, his treatment of Neville when he was younger does not sound like something Gran would have appreciated, had she known. I suspect Uncle Algie is probably a bit of a "ne'er-do-well." Again, JM2K ...
Solitaire
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haymoni - Jun 19, 2008 6:18 pm (#1426 of 1448)
I just wanna know what happened to Trevor. I really hoped he was going to be an Animagus or at least a bit magical - something!!
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2008 8:22 pm (#1427 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Stringer - Jul 31, 2008 10:56 am (#1428 of 1448)
May I wish Professor Longbottom a belated Happy Birthday!
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Steve Newton - Aug 18, 2008 7:14 am (#1429 of 1448)
Librarian
Way back in post 1345 I listed these parallels between Harry and Neville:
Could each have been meant by the Prophecy Were born a day apart Both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions Both true Gryffindors (The sword came to each.) In the Forbidden Forest together as a punishment Each have their right arms broken while on broomsticks (Technically crashing broomsticks.) Both dated Ginny Have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell, Neville by Dolohov and Hermione, Harry by Draco Both can see Thestrals Snape hates both Both have been hit by the Petrificus Totalus spell, Neville by Hermione and Harry by Draco, again Both have led rebellions/resistance movements at Hogwarts Both faced Voldemort in battle
I have another to add. They both have had broomsticks drift into the Forbidden Forest. Neville at the first flying lesson in SS/PS and Harry in POA.
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Solitaire - Aug 22, 2008 5:41 am (#1430 of 1448)
Interesting thoughts, Steve. I also wonder if Harry and Neville are the only two students to have worn the Sorting Hat on an occasion other than sorting. Both also pulled Gryffindor's sword from it, and each used that sword to kill a snake controlled by Voldemort.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Aug 25, 2008 7:45 am (#1431 of 1448)
Librarian
They are certainly the only ones that we have seen.
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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2008 7:42 am (#1432 of 1448)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I am currently listening to Sorceror's Stone on audiotape (I originally had good intentions about doing the read-along, but oh well...) At any rate, I am constantly amazed at the new stuff I pick up on while listening to the books rather than reading them. It truly is a totally different medium for me and I find tons more stuff that I had missed in many previous readings; I highly recommend trying it if you have the opportunity...
Anyway, at the beginning feast when everyone is sharing stories about their backgrounds, Neville says "...but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages." Now, shouldn't he have said "...the family thought I was a Squib for ages"? Neville knows his parents were both magical. He clearly comes from an all-magical family. Shouldn't he know the difference between a Muggle and a Squib?
Maybe it's just another example of a JKR mini-error -- perhaps she hadn't yet thought of the concept of "squibs" when she wrote the first book. Anyway, it was an oddity I noticed...
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Liz Mann - Sep 13, 2008 7:56 am (#1433 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe he didn't want to use the word Squib to describe himself, after all there is a certain amount of disgust against Squibs in the wizarding world. But really J.K. probably just did it deliberately because she didn't want to introduce the concept of a Squib until CoS.
Someone on the Half-Blood Prince movie thread suggested that Neville might have dyspraxia. What do you guys think?
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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2008 8:00 am (#1434 of 1448)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I think that's a definite possibility! Poor guy...
But then again, I don't know. By the end of the series, he certainly seemed to have out-grown it, as if it were more of a confidence-thing...
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Orion - Sep 13, 2008 11:17 am (#1435 of 1448)
And no wonder if his family has been mopping him up all his life. They are more lethal than the Dursleys because they don't treat Neville like an outsider who doesn't belong to the family. So Neville can't escape, like Harry can, by seeing the funny side of them. Harry can see the Dursleys from the outside. They don't mean anything to him. But for Neville his crazy family is family. It means, if they put him down, he takes it seriously, he has no inner distance to them.
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Solitaire - Sep 13, 2008 12:12 pm (#1436 of 1448)
Do we know the background of Neville's mother, Alice? Could she have been a Half-Blood or Muggle-Born? If so, the Longbottoms might have felt Neville was a "throw-back" to the Muggle side of the family. I know it is mentioned that Neville is Pure-blood, but do we know who Alice's ancestors were? I found Longbottoms on the Black Family crest, but I didn't see a maiden name for Alice. Just wondering ...
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Sep 13, 2008 1:59 pm (#1437 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Alice must have been at least half-blood because if she was Muggle-born then Neville would have been considered half-blood like Harry.
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Solitaire - Sep 13, 2008 2:18 pm (#1438 of 1448)
True ... the "all-Muggle" thing made me wonder, though, so I started checking. Even though Gran doesn't act like the Malfoys regarding non Pure-bloods, the fact that the family believed he might be "all Muggle" makes it sound like there may have been a Muggle somewhere in the family tree. Then again, maybe they felt that, if he didn't show any magical ability, it was better to be thought a Muggle than a Squib. Hard to say ...
Solitaire
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legolas returns - Sep 14, 2008 3:58 am (#1439 of 1448)
Neville is described in the books as "pureblood". If you check out the bit in OOP where Harry finally hears/discusses what the prophesy means.
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PeskyPixie - Sep 21, 2008 1:27 pm (#1440 of 1448)
Alice would have to be more than a Half-Blood for Neville to be considered a Pure-Blood, wouldn't she? We're not told too much about how these things exactly work, but I've heard JKR say that she based it on how the Nazis used to define what made a person Jewish.
I hadn't thought of this before, but the Longbottoms are Blood Traitors, like the Weasleys. Bella says that Blood Traitor is next to Mudblood in her books, so there is some serious hatred there.
I know this is Harry's story, but had Neville been the hero I think we could have expected a great story as well.
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Solitaire - Sep 21, 2008 3:54 pm (#1441 of 1448)
It's hard to say, Pesky. Sometimes I think it's Harry's pluck and determination in the face of what often seem like overwhelming odds that have strengthened Neville. If Neville hadn't met Harry, he might have continued to be intimidated by his own family forever. Neville--like the rest of Harry's real band of supporters--is looked down upon by many in his world. Something in him seems to change a little when Harry tells him he is worth a dozen of Malfoy. I sometimes wonder if that is the first compliment he has ever received.
Anyway, Neville seems to draw hope from Harry's resistance to those who seem to want to squash him down. It's hard to say whether Neville could have done as Harry did, because his family was not of the "You can do it! We have confidence in you!" kind. Harry never even knew anything about Voldemort and what happened, either, until he was eleven. Neville would have heard about it all that time, I expect, from Gran and Uncle Algie.
I'm not sure I've made sense here, but it seems to me that the boys are who and what they are because of how they've been raised. Harry has had to learn those survival skills a bit earlier than Neville. I'm just not sure how Gran and Uncle Algie might have dealt with it all ... and that is what might have made the difference.
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Sep 22, 2008 8:01 am (#1442 of 1448)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
On a completely different topic, has anyone here read the transcript of a radio interview Jo did in 2000 where she said that she imagined Neville as being blond? I've never imagined him as blond, I always imagined him as having brown hair.
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 22, 2008 7:58 pm (#1443 of 1448)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Not that one Liz, but I do remember JK being surprised that someone thought Neville had dreadlocks or braids.
I went back to PS/SS to figure out how anyone could get such a strange idea, and noticed that the paragraph immediately following Neville's introduction, Lee Jordan's description follows. That reader simply confused the two characters.
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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2008 6:00 pm (#1444 of 1448)
" ... someone thought Neville had dreadlocks or braids." -Mrs. Sirius
Someone has confused Mr. Longbottom with Mr. Jordan.
It kind of reminds me of the fan who was shocked to see Gary Oldman portraying Sirius in the movies as he had thought that Sirius was of African descent.
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jose043 - Jul 30, 2009 2:05 am (#1445 of 1448)
Happy Birthday Neville, and many more to come.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2009 8:18 am (#1446 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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Dryleaves - Jul 30, 2009 10:12 am (#1447 of 1448)
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 30, 2009 1:55 pm (#1448 of 1448)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Happy Birthday, Neville!
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