Goodby to All That

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Goodbye to All That

Vulture - Apr 17, 2007 9:41 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:29 am

With not long to go before Book 7, I'd like to suggest that Book 6 seemed to have a "goodbye to all that" feel on several levels. We're all, of course, aware of Harry's statement that he won't return to Hogwarts even if it does re-open (whether he sticks to this or not). Also, I felt that Dumbledore's funeral seemed a bit like a roll-call of most of the (still living !!) characters from all the books, apart from (a) Voldemort's cronies, and (b) Muggle characters. To me, there's a hint there that we've seen the last of most of those who were at the funeral. Also, the tone of the last paragraph of Book 6 conveys the idea of Harry and his two closest friends now setting out on a lonely road towards a fate that, on balance, wouldn't seem _ to him, at least _ to hold much hope. And on the Snape thread, in post #1933 , I've suggested, that, far from Snape being a big star in Book 7, Book 6 might in fact have been his final dramatic exit, at least as a major character.

I don't want this thread to discuss the Snape aspect - because I've already gone into that on his thread. But I would like to get into the "farewell" feel of Book 6. I realize that some of this may seem to overlap with "Will Harry Return To Hogwarts ?" and/or "Predictions for Book 7" _ but I don't think the "goodbye to all that" question could be fully tackled in either of those discussions.

(By the way, I forgot the No.1 "goodbye to all that" element _ Dumbledore's death itself !!)

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frogface - Apr 25, 2007 10:19 am (#1 of 33)

I don't think JKR would choose to dispose of so many characters before the end of the series, I'm sure most of them will get as much as a look in as they have in the previous books. However I do agree that Books 1-6 had a certain pattern that I suspect book 7 will not. I don't think Harry will return as a student to Hogwarts in book 7 (otherwise why would JKR have him say that he was planning not to go back?) and other things will be very different - this will be the only book where its possible for ANY of the characters to die, and all bets are off. We also know that this book will end will an epilogue. Curiously, HBP was the only book that didn't end at Kings Cross Station. This is why I agree with you to an extent - It's clear to see that JKR had already started breaking certain patterns by the end of book 6. We also had the first death of a character who appeared in every book up until his death.

But I think that JKR will wrap up the story for most of her characters in book 7, not book 6. And I do think Snape will have a major part to play, even though HBP was "his book" in many ways.

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Soul Search - Apr 26, 2007 6:45 am (#2 of 33)

Vulture,

I think I have to disagree with the "Goodbye" premise. If anything, Dumbledore's funeral was reminding us of characters we will see more of in Deathly Hallows.

Barman/Aberforth -- We have only had hints of this character, starting in GoF. Dumbledore's brother should have a larger role in Deathly Hallows.

Madam Pince -- If there is anything to MPISM, she will have a role.

Grawp -- He wasn't brought to Hogwarts just to scare of the centaurs in OotP. He has a bit more to do.

Madame Maxine -- Not sure about her, other than Hagrid's love interest. I do recall Ron's "any baby they had would weigh a ton" (from memory) comment. Maybe they both appear in the epilog.

Ernie Prang -- A reminder of Stan Shunpike?

The witch that pushes the cart on the Hogwart's Express -- Not sure why she was mentioned.

Percy -- JKR has been building up to something for him since PS/SS.

Umbridge -- She still has a lot of comeupance due.

MOM crowd -- I can't decide if they will help or hinder Harry, but there will be something.

Rita Skeeter -- Will she write Harry's story?

The more I think of it, the more I would suggest the opposite of "Goodbye to all that."

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[Sirius, Mrs.]Mrs. Sirius - Apr 26, 2007 8:28 am (#3 of 33)
Edited Apr 26, 2007 9:29 am

Vulture I read your post several days ago, but it has taken me a long time to respond because I guess our views are so different. In some ways the funeral is more of JK's introduction, in my opinion of all the people she will be calling upon. It is sort of a curtain call at the beginning of the show.

There is a Broadway show, Clue, I think it is, at the beginning one of the actors steps out of character and introduces the players, before the show starts. Love is a strong theme for JK and she showed us all her love pairs, she showed us Dumbledores portrait quiet and reposed, Percy, obediently awaiting his masters commands, Wormtail in a very miserable spot (but was that more miserable that life as a rat for 12 years).

People and creatures owe Harry life debts and favors. So far only Buckbeak, sorry Witherwings, seems to have paid Harry any kind of recompense. I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw that Brazilian snake makes a comeback. Yes the trio will go off but not for the entire time. We do know that we will see the Burrows again

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 26, 2007 7:20 pm (#4 of 33)

Remus, Tonks, Moody, Shacklebolt, Aberforth, the Weasleys, Hagrid, Grawp, Fierenze, and Dobby as well as his other allies will array themselves against Voldemort, the Death Eaters and if need be the Ministry.

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Luna Logic - Apr 27, 2007 4:12 am (#5 of 33)

And the Brazilian snake too.

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Esther Rose - Apr 27, 2007 7:57 am (#6 of 33)
Edited Apr 27, 2007 9:18 am

Hmmmm... I seem to see the funeral as a gathering of the chess pieces more than a "final bow". As in the Chess game Dumbledore vs. Voldemort is now finished, Dumbledore lost. But the Chess game Harry Potter vs. Voldemort has just begun. (Now that Harry no longer has Dumbledore's, and let's face it, Hogwart's protection.)

Just like in Quidditch when Harry became the captain. Harry most likely has to carefully pick his chess pieces from the people at the funeral.

Oh boy, now I am off to figure out the location of everyone in the funeral. Hagrid was near the back right?

Remember: White moves first. Which is quite cool that HBP ended the way it did. Harry can't go anywhere (not #4 Privet, Godric's Hollow, #12 Grimmauld, or the Burrow) until Voldemort makes a daring move. Will Voldemort's opening move be Bellatrix or Pettigrew? That question, I suppose, needs to be answered in the Chess reflection/projection thread. And it would mean that I opened a possibility or I'm just rambling on.

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journeymom - Apr 27, 2007 9:32 am (#7 of 33)

Or both, Esther Rose. I love the chess theory and even if you're wrong I still enjoy every addition to the thread.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 5, 2007 2:59 pm (#8 of 33)

Esther, I really like the chess comparison.

With regard to Book 6, from the time DD was introduced, I felt as though DD was "getting his ducks in a row", so to speak. I also feel as though this can be applied to the whole of Book 6. We have the players for both sides (or so it seems) lined up - the prisoners have escaped from Azkaban and have returned to Big V. Those who had gathered at DD's funeral who had once been separate beings doing their own thing have now come together - they share a common ground in DD.

My concerns would be more for those who weren't mentioned at the funeral, such as Trelawney. I strongly feel as though she will not make it through Book 7. Ollivander is another.

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Veritaserum - May 8, 2007 11:07 am (#9 of 33)

Vulture, I really like your idea. I think it sounds like a really interesting and risky choice for JKR to make if DH is a much sparser, tighter storyline in terms of characters and subplots.

Soul Search, I see in your list of characters the potential for it to really be the last curtain call for many of the minor yet important ones (at least maybe until the epilogue). It seems to me that characters such as Umbridge, Rita Skeeter, Grawp, Ernie Prang, etc. have fulfilled their purpose and since there is going to be so much important stuff going on in DH, it would be appropriate to have them all come together at some point to kind of wrap things up, as Vulture said.

I do see HBP as kind of an ending of life as Harry had known it, and as setting up the beginning of a new kind of story, where Harry has fully come into his own as the adult hero.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 8, 2007 6:38 pm (#10 of 33)

I could see no reason for Umbridge to stay through HBP unless she is going to be a player in DH. I imagine the ministry may be in such disarray that they could turn to Delores out of desperation. I can imagine what Harry would think. In incensed a strong enough word?

Mickey

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Neville Longbottom - May 9, 2007 1:38 am (#11 of 33)

Rita and Umbridge will appear again, Jo said so. I think it was in the post HBP interview with Melissa and Emerson, where she said that there's a bit more to come about Umbridge, and that she loves torturing her. Similarly, sometime between OotP and HBP (and it might be during the Edinburgh book festival, where the questions and answers are on her website), she said that there's more to come on Rita. Surely she couldn't have meant the cameo appearance during the funeral with this.

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gankomon - May 10, 2007 3:12 pm (#12 of 33)
Edited May 10, 2007 4:29 pm

Vulture, et al,

I am a first-time poster, so be gentle. The funeral scene certainly did feel like a roll call and a goodbye. However, I don't believe that Book Six was intended as a character farewell scene. There are a number of reasons for this view, which I shall list as follows:

1. Ms. Rowling has said in interviews that some characters will be back. I specifically recall her comment regarding Snape, (something like "You'll always see a lot of Snape because he's a gift of a character", though I am not sure my quote is precise) but there were others as well. I also seem to recall that Ms. Rowling said it was too fun to torture Umbridge, which seems to suggest she may re-appear as well.

2. Harry still has a long road to travel, and I would be very surprised if he does not encounter some of these characters along the way, whether he carries through on his intentions to return to Hogwarts or not. I am principally thinking of the Order of the Phoenix members and some of the Ministry here but other cast members might offer clues.

3. While Dumbledore's death may well have signaled a farewell to Hogwarts, I think it is designed to be more along the lines of the demarcation of an "end of an era". It is this event that brought home to Harry that he had no one to stand between himself and Voldemort any longer, and pushes him to begin the quest to destroy the horcruxes.In many ways, the series is about Harry's coming-of-age, and Book Six removed the last vestiges of childhood. harry is almost of age; he is an adult and has to shoulder an adult's task. This may be why there will be no more Quidditch as well.

That being said, you have a fascinating characterization of the "feel" of Book 6. However, I think the "goodbye" feel is more of a goodbye to childhood than it is a goodbye to some of the cast.

Regards,

gankomon
--------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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frogface - May 12, 2007 4:32 am (#13 of 33)

Good first post gankomon! I fully agree. Especially with the point about saying goodbye to childhood. I'd never looked at it that way. Harry will turn 17 at the beginning of book 7, so he will basically be a man for most of the book, and he character will continue to change and grow as it did throughout the series. The changes he went through from books 4-6 were certainly apparent. Hopefully book 6 was a goodbye to the moody, shouting Harry of OotP and some of HBP. I like him more when he's thinking with a clear head!

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Luna Logic - May 13, 2007 12:01 am (#14 of 33)

I agree with your post, Gankomon: Harry still has a long road to travel. And the the "goodbye" feel of HBP would be more a goodbye to childhood

As Frogface, I think Harry in DH will be a different Harry, saying goodbye to a part of his (angry?) former self at his coming on age, perhaps ? (If I risk a prediction: maybe after a dream...)

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vball man - May 20, 2007 9:58 am (#15 of 33)

...saying goodbye to a part of his (angry?) former self... - Luna Logic

I agree. I'd like to see Harry make an effort to do as Dumbledore did and try to rescue Draco. Draco might refuse, but Harry needs to overcome his bitterness toward Draco and offer forgiveness and restitution. I think that he will - I think DH will have Harry bitter toward Draco and Harry will be refined as he "forgives" (or offers it) Draco at the end.

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Mrs. Sirius - May 20, 2007 9:55 pm (#16 of 33)
Edited May 20, 2007 10:57 pm

but Harry needs to overcome his bitterness toward Draco and offer forgiveness and restitution - vball man

Is it Draco or Snape that Harry has to forgive? Harry noticed that Draco lowered his wand when menacing Dumbledore. He noted that Draco hesitated and trembled. After the funeral he remembered that Draco had lowered his wand. Harry, (love- capable Harry) is set to have sympathy for Draco. He knows that Draco was forced into position under threat to his family.

Snape, however, Harry only just hours before Dumbledore's death, did Harry learn that Snape was the betrayer that lead to his parents death. How will he be able to forgive him that.

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Gatorgrad1991 - May 24, 2007 9:51 am (#17 of 33)

I agree with this to an extent. One of the things that struck me forcibly throughout HBP was this "Good-bye to childhood" feeling it had. It's there in how Dumbledore treats Harry more as an equal, it's an undercurrent in all of the romantic hijinks, and the fight at Hogwarts could be considered symbolic of losing that last, safe childhood place.

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frogface - May 24, 2007 10:56 am (#18 of 33)

I agree Gatorgrad. You can clearly see a great deal of development in Harry's relationship with Dumbledore in HBP. He refers to Harry at one point as a friend. This isn't something he's said before, but it does show that he's seeing Harry as more of an equal and less as a student. That was the lesson Dumbledore learned in OotP: he could help Harry shoulder his burden, but he couldn't shoulder it for him.

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M A Grimmett - May 25, 2007 12:47 pm (#19 of 33)

Since everything has been building up to this final book, I think it's quite fitting that it has a "farewell" feeling to it. From Year 1, Rowling has put Harry on this specific path leading to a specific destiny. The previous years had life-threatening encounters, but there's always been more time, other years. This is the endgame. Harry's not a kid anymore; he's got some skills and a quick intelligence, loyal and talented friends who are willing to see this through all the way, and his mentors and protectors have gone as far with him as they can. Harry's made the specific commitment to end Voldemort or die trying. There are no more books and we are aware that there's only a set amount of time for him to achieve his goal. I don't think an epilogue is long enough to fully satisfy us as to everyone's fates; the goodbyes had to start early.

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Lavandula - Jun 5, 2007 10:57 am (#20 of 33)

I too echo the thoughts of Grimmett, Gatorgrad, Frogface, and Gankomon. The”Goodbye to Childhood” is a strong feeling evoked in the last chapter of HBP.

It is also a goodbye to the other things HP that we have all come to love reading about in the last six books: 1. Classes and lessons 2. Quidditch 3. Childhood/Adolescent behavior and relationships (games, pranks, jokes, dances, etc) 4. Escape from Privet Drive and the Dursleys and 5. Wizarding World Facts, lessons, history.

As mentioned by many others before, the last book is a totally different story from all the rest and won't have the same qualities as the others that we have come to love. Now we just need the story finished.

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Vox Gerbilis - Jun 9, 2007 4:21 pm (#21 of 33)

I believe that DH will be a more streamlined book than the previous 6, with a focus on only the most important characters and the events surrounding the destruction of horcruxes and the final battle with LV. I don't think we'll see much more of the characters whose roles have been limited to providing color and rounding out the Hogwarts community.

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Solitaire - Jun 9, 2007 6:26 pm (#22 of 33)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 7:27 pm

These comments really make me wish Jo would do a "prequel" that tells more about the Marauders' generation ... and some of the older denizens of the magical world. I, for one, would like to know how Snape and Peter were enticed into the DEs and what led Sirius to question Remus's loyalties. I would also like to know what James and Lily did for work and how they came to do it, whether or not there is a familial tie between McGonagall and Figgy, the extent of Petunia's experiences with the Magical World ... I could go on, but I really do think there is material a-plenty for such a book. I don't see how Jo can possibly answer all of our questions in just one more volume ... though she may pull it off. At the very least, she absolutely must write Hogwarts: A History.

Solitaire

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frogface - Jun 10, 2007 12:41 am (#23 of 33)
Edited Jun 10, 2007 1:42 am

I disagree with Vox Gerbilis. Deathly Hallows will be the second longest book of the series. It’s going to be longer than GoF but not quite as long as OotP, so it'll be a fairly long book. I think JKR will feature characters like Lupin, Tonks, McGonnagall etc. as much as she ever has. And I think we'll find out quite a bit about the Marauder generation in this book - particularly Lily.

Solitaire, I read back in May that JKR will be doing an encyclopedia of the Harry Potter world, where she will flesh out characters etc., as a charity book or something like that. So you'll get your wish

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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 10, 2007 7:14 pm (#24 of 33)

I have to agree with Vox Gerbilis I don't see how JKR can have the trio perform all that is going to have to be done to defeat Tom and still have time for back story on all of the minor characters. I don't mean that they will be totally forgotten just not featured. We have the wedding which will allow for a lot of interaction with the minor characters, the trip to Harry's homestead and the search for at least three and possibly four horcruxes. That will fill up the book real fast. JM2K's.

Mickey

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Choices - Jun 11, 2007 8:44 am (#25 of 33)

I agree Mickey. There is so much we want to know, but if it is unimportant to the plot, I don't think JKR is going to take the time to tell us. We will just have to settle certain things in our own minds - right or wrong.

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zelmia - Jun 12, 2007 9:14 am (#26 of 33)
Edited Jun 12, 2007 10:14 am

Madame Author made quite a point, in HBP, of setting up the Pensieve for Harry to be able to continue his quest for the Horcruxes (i.e. Dumbledore decanting his own personal memories, Dumbledore pouring memories into the basin). She has also assured us that the entire backstory will be revealed in the final episode of the saga so sufficiently as to preclude the necessity for a "prequel". Therefore I am confident we will be seeing the Marauders' generation through Harry's total immersion in the Pensieve.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 12, 2007 10:24 am (#27 of 33)

zelmia I'm not saying we won't find out about the Marauders and most of the other characters that we love and have questions about. I am saying that it won't be big of a part of the book. It could all happen after the final battle has been fought when Harry has time to relax and delve into the Pensieve more out of desire rather than necessity.

Mickey

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2007 12:35 pm (#28 of 33)

It could all happen after the final battle has been fought when Harry has time to relax and delve into the Pensieve more out of desire rather than necessity.

The thing is, Mickey, that a lot of what Harry is going to need to know to find and destroy the Horcruxes and vanquish Voldy is going to (probably) require knowledge of past events. In his pursuit of that knowledge, I have no doubt he will be gathering information about the Marauders and their friends/enemies. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Vox Gerbilis - Jun 12, 2007 4:52 pm (#29 of 33)

I believe that there will be a lot of focus on the Marauders and other pre-PS/SS events. I expect to find out a lot about the Potters' careers, their run-in with LV, the Snape-Lily connection, the Petunia angle, the Longbottoms, and the Malfoys.

However, I believe that the Hogwarts-based characters who have not yet played a major role will have little to do in DH. They might cross paths with Harry on his journey to destroy the horcruxes and bring down LV, or get a mention in the epilogue. But it's too late in the game for Lavendar, Seamus, Flitwick or Sprout to become major players.

I wonder how many seemingly come-and-gone characters will re-emerge. I fully expect to see Umbridge again (PAYBACK!), but what about Cho or Angelina?

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2007 6:24 pm (#30 of 33)

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the Hogwarts DA graduates (Fred & George, Lee, Angelina, etc.) show up for battle ... would you?

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Veritaserum - Jun 12, 2007 7:54 pm (#31 of 33)

Or Oliver Wood?

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2007 9:37 pm (#32 of 33)
Edited Jun 12, 2007 10:40 pm

He's Gryff ... perhaps he'd show up for the showdown! Besides, think how useful he'd be in battle. As a keeper, he can use big shield charms to keep DEs from aiming wild curses at Harry, and he can blast all injured DEs back into play ... until they croak!

Solitaire

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Madam Pince - Jun 13, 2007 1:12 pm (#33 of 33)

Plus then they could bring back Sean Biggerstaff for the last movie!