The Cave

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The Cave

Post  Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:16 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15th, 2011.



Last edited by Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:18 pm

The Cave

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 19, 2006 7:13 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter May 16, 2006 12:51 am

What can we learn about Dumbledore, Voldemort, Harry and book 7 by studying this location and portion of book 6...

JKR quoted from mugglenet interview:

ES: “What would Dumbledore's boggart be?”
JKR: “I can't answer that either, but for theories you should read six again. There you go.”

Some say DD relived another person's trauma in the cave. But considering the above clue, there weren't many times DD displayed utter fear in book 6. He was truly afraid during his experience upon drinking the potion in the basin.

What else about the cave scene could be deceiving or revealing? Personally, I liked the way Harry was able to hex several inferi with one stroke of the wand, foreshadowing his ability to potentially take on a crowd of adversaries.

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Regan of Gong - Jan 20, 2006 5:43 pm (#1 of 143)

Yeah, I read that the other day, and it occurred to me that when a spell is cast, the spell may be a short burst, instead of a single projectile. So you could wave your wand and then move it around you with the spell still coming out, like a hose or something.

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Puck - Jan 22, 2006 7:52 am (#2 of 143)

Well, DD has him vanquished a Dark Lord. Perhaps he relived part of that experience.

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Sarah R - Jan 29, 2006 2:32 pm (#3 of 143)

This may be better suited to another thread, but something about the cave scene stuck out at me. What effect, if any, did Umbridge's blood quill have when Dumbledore says that Harry's blood is worth more (don't have my books to look up the quote)? It just seems that this may have some scary implications.

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Puck - Jan 29, 2006 3:09 pm (#4 of 143)

I thought DD was just implying it's more important for Harry to survive, as he's the one to take down LV.

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Solitaire - Jan 29, 2006 3:25 pm (#5 of 143)

Harry's blood has proven important before--in Voldemort's rebirthing--so I was bothered by the blood thing, as well. As to Umbridge's quill ... are you suggesting it would have "retained" some of Harry's blood that could be used in some sinister way? I have wondered about that, although Lee Jordan used it, as well. Mainly, I've considered it an instrument of torture, which Umbridge herself should have been forced to use. I've often wondered why no one ever spilled the beans about this.

Solitaire

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Honour - Jan 29, 2006 3:37 pm (#6 of 143)

I agree with you on that score Soli, it annoyed me too that no one reported being tortured by Umbridge, not even Hermione (who annoyed everyone and sundry about the poor treatment of house-elves), didn't come to Harry's aid and tell say Minerva, or even Hagrid, or even Dumbledore, what was that about? (JKR?)

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 29, 2006 4:12 pm (#7 of 143)

I personally feel DD's statement in the cave about Harry's blood means more than Puck's interpretation. Of course it's a complex issue, Harry's blood, referred to directly & indirectly on many occasions. So I can't help but think DD's comment went unnoticed by Harry because of his anxiety being in the cave, but DD meant something particular -- related to Vold using Harry's blood, Lily's protection, and on and on.

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Sarah R - Jan 29, 2006 5:12 pm (#8 of 143)

I don't really have any coherent theories about Umbridge or Harry's blood. I definitely think that the main reason for the quill was Umbridge's cruelty but wondered if there was something else going on as well. I only posted because it concerned me that Harry's blood was allowed to be so easily taken at Hogwarts and wondered if this could mean trouble in the future. I don't know if Umbridge would have used it, but the fact that she, or anyone else for that matter, could have is what bothered me after reading Dumbledore's comments in the cave.

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Puck - Jan 29, 2006 6:46 pm (#9 of 143)

I don't think Umbridge gave Harry enough credit to believe his blood was special. However, given a chance she may have saved a vial or two from Fudge.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 30, 2006 6:44 pm (#10 of 143)

I also wondered if DD's comment about Harry's blood could mean that Harry is now (since CoS) a "true Gryffindor" as well as a part of Voldemort. And this combination is what makes Harry's blood more valuable than DD, only a Gryffindor. This "combining" theme has been used in recent stories like The Matrix -- it does seem obvious to me at this point that Harry's blood is a "purified" hybrid of dark and light.

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Honour - Feb 4, 2006 12:57 am (#11 of 143)

Question: It's been awhile since I read book 6, but for the life of me I just can't remember, but was there a reason why Harry and Dumbledore couldn't just apparate to the basin, or even fly there?

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]LooneyLuna - Feb 4, 2006 7:15 am (#12 of 143)

I'm sure the cave/island was magically protected against apparating wizards. Just like there are anti-apparating spells on wizard houses or on Hogwarts.

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haymoni - Feb 4, 2006 10:40 am (#13 of 143)

I'm guessing I wouldn't want to apparate into a booby-trapped hiding place created by Voldy.

You'd want to be able to see things coming.

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Puck - Feb 4, 2006 12:56 pm (#14 of 143)

What, Haymoni? You wouldn't want to apparate directly into an inferi-filled lake?

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 4, 2006 3:25 pm (#15 of 143)

My guess is DD allowed Harry to try to "accio" the then-unknown object from across the lake because DD was seeing if an average spell would work in the cave. It had undesirable results so this might be why apparating was deemed not an option. Then it seemed DD was keen on following the "trail" of magic left behind, which led him to the chain, boat, etc.

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Honour - Feb 4, 2006 5:23 pm (#16 of 143)

So why didn't Dumbledore transfigure? Maybe into a phoenix? Then he could have carried Harry there?

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Puck - Feb 4, 2006 6:43 pm (#17 of 143)

I never heard it mentioned that DD is an animagus, which he would have to be to turn into a phoenix. Very dangerous business, hunting horcruxes. DD need to teach Harry how careful he needed to be.

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Choices - Feb 5, 2006 9:49 am (#18 of 143)

I think there are things that Dumbledore could do in his search for Horcruxes that Harry would not be able to do - so Dumbledore had to show Harry in a way that Harry would be able to accomplish when he goes out Horcrux hunting without Dumbledore to guide him.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 5, 2006 4:58 pm (#19 of 143)

It's never been stated if the animagus is the only person able to change into an animal. Since DD was the Transfiguration teacher for a while, and is the most knowledgeable wizard there is, I've assumed he can change into anything he wants to, including thin air. This is why it seems he was adamant about their following the specific path or trail which led them to the chain, the boat, crossing the lake in the boat, etc. It seems he was looking for clues along the way which he may have missed had he simply popped over to the basin. Also, I agree with Choices in that he was teaching Harry in the process.

I am very interested in why DD insisted Harry not touch the water. Was it "don't disturb what's in the water" or was it "don't get the water on you because it's a potion". Also, I wonder if Vold made the "blood-key" into the cave that only allowed certain bloodlines to enter...

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Puck - Feb 5, 2006 8:07 pm (#20 of 143)

I think DD knew what was in the water, and knew they would come after them if the water was disturbed.

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Honour - Feb 6, 2006 12:11 am (#21 of 143)

As far as Dumbledore’s magical powers are concerned I have always believed that he was able to "transfigure" into anything too! Including being able to be invisible, or even changing his form whether it be a phoenix or a teeny spider Smile. Shadow, your suggestion of Dumbledore looking for something was an interesting thought. I think I need to go back and read HBP Smile

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Choices - Feb 6, 2006 10:43 am (#22 of 143)

Shadow - "It's never been stated if the animagus is the only person able to change into an animal."

Dumbledore can transfigure into anything and if that thing is an animal, then Dumbledore is an animagus. I think by definition, anyone who can transform into an animal is an animagus.

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Steve Newton - Feb 6, 2006 11:04 am (#23 of 143)

I kind of thought that you were an animagus if you could transfigure back from an animal. Otherwise, you're an animal.

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Choices - Feb 6, 2006 11:14 am (#24 of 143)

I'm not sure I understand your comment Steve. An animagus is a human who can transform into an animal, and logically back again to human form. Although Sirius did say that James had suggested he make the change into a dog permanent, but I think that was just in the movie and not canon. Anyway, I suppose there is a possibility that an animagus could make the change permanent if he/she so desired.

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Steve Newton - Feb 6, 2006 11:17 am (#25 of 143)

Well, actually, my point was that if you cannot change yourself back then you will remain an animal. To be an animagus you must be able to go both ways. I guess this would also mean that the resulting animal must retain its memory of being human. And, of course, of the way back. I'm rambling.

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Choices - Feb 6, 2006 11:24 am (#26 of 143)

LOL OK, I get it. Thanks... I guess I just figured that part of learning to be an animagus was also learning how to reverse the process.

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timrew - Feb 6, 2006 3:43 pm (#27 of 143)

Okay. It's not just animagus that can turn into any animal. It takes a special animagus, of which Dumbledore is, er,.........one.

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Puck - Feb 6, 2006 8:12 pm (#28 of 143)

LOL, Steve!

Well, wouldn't he have to be registered? Of course, DD was not exactly a "by the book" kind of guy...

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The giant squid - Feb 7, 2006 12:49 am (#29 of 143)

Puck, we've come across that one before... Hermione mentioned that she'd seen the list of all registered animagi "for the last century". Dumbledore was 150 years old. That leaves him plenty of time to register prior to Hermy's search.

--Mike

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Puck - Feb 7, 2006 5:36 am (#30 of 143)

Good catch!

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 7, 2006 2:55 pm (#31 of 143)

I agree with Puck and giant squid in that he could have registered last century but he could also have forgotten to register Wink He could also have so many animals -if not any animal- to turn into at his desire that he's beyond animagus and is an Omnimagus... In any case, regarding the Cave, he obviously chose to remain himself. This is curious and can't be only because of his withered hand/weakness.

I also imagine there were several "booby traps" - small ones - that he didn't want to risk with Harry at his side. Obviously the inferi were a major booby trap, but there may have been other things similar to the boat only able to carry one person, etc.

Regarding the potion, I wonder if it was the memory of the last person who tried to take the locket. As we know, Vold would have wanted them alive, so perhaps somehow it was the voice of the "burglar" being tortured by Vold...perhaps Regulus told someone about it and when they didn't succeed he went in himself... otherwise, I think it's either the memory of the orphanage kids or a dark secret of DD's being triggered.

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Puck - Feb 8, 2006 11:09 am (#32 of 143)

I wonder if poor Harry will have to drink a similar potion, and we'll thus find out more about it.

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Choices - Feb 8, 2006 11:32 am (#33 of 143)

Shadow - "Regarding the potion, I wonder if it was the memory of the last person who tried to take the locket."

We have read a description of how a memory is extracted from the mind - the wand is touched to the temple area and a thin, silvery strand of memory catches onto the tip of the wand and is then pulled free and deposited into the Pensieve. How could a memory get into the potion in the cave unless a person went through the process of extracting the memory and putting it into the potion? Even if that were done, would the memory survive since it is not put into the proper liquid like what is in the Pensieve - the Pensieve liquid is silvery and the potion in the basin in the cave is green. That would be like taking a fish out of clean water and putting it into green KoolAid - would it live long? No, I think the memory that Dumbledore experienced had to be one from his own past that was already inside his mind.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 8, 2006 4:21 pm (#34 of 143)

Actually, I wasn't really thinking of it as a Pensieve thing, so perhaps rather than "memory" I should say "experience". Of course I'm just speculating here, but as we know from Harry and DD observing memories, they had no strong emotional reaction to what they witnessed. And JKR said pensieve memories are objective. However, if a potion would put you in the person's subjective experience and therefore feel what they felt, it could happen the way we saw in the cave. But since we've never been introduced to such a potion, I'm not putting any weight on this.

If it is in fact a DD past experience, I wonder if it was Grindewald or not. I started a thread months ago that speculated DD had a son who betrayed him. I can't help but think this may be hinting at that since JKR said looking into DD's family would be fruitful. I interpreted that as a former family unit and not as Aberforth.... oh well, we'll have to wait and see.

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Geber - Feb 8, 2006 6:49 pm (#35 of 143)

Shadow,

If indeed Dumbledore was reliving a memory of being betrayed by a son, that would make him a mixture of Merlin (a powerful wizard) and King Arthur (betrayed by a son).

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Choices - Feb 8, 2006 7:03 pm (#36 of 143)

I agree, Shadow, that the potion may have triggered a past experience and forced Dumbledore to relive it in his mind. I have always thought that he was reliving the torture of his family or loved ones and saying that whatever caused the torture was his fault and he should be the one punished.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 8, 2006 7:27 pm (#37 of 143)

Interesting, Geber. I hadn't thought of Arthur/Mordred. My little theory started with DD getting teary-eyed when Harry said he told Scrimgeour he was "DD's man through and through". DD's reaction, coupled with numerous past references from DD about "loyalty", made me think he may have been betrayed by his own son, the "authentic" Gryffindor heir. In his stead, Harry is proving himself loyal enough to become the next heir.

Back to the potion, it has been said that Vold killed enough people to make an army of Inferi, so I can't help but think all those people in the lake of the cave somehow died *in* the cave with the help of that potion. It just makes sense to me if after they drink the potion and are so thirsty they have to drink the lake -which we may speculate is DoLD- without the help of a second wizard, they would be pulled into the lake by the Inferi and become one of them. So if this could be a scenario, the question is why did so many people enter the cave? Did Vold in fact make it known about his horcruxes? He said at graveyard in GoF to the DE's *you know the lengths I went to* (paraphrasing). Could my idea about "burglars" be accurate?

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Geber - Feb 10, 2006 3:35 pm (#38 of 143)

I can't imagine that all the Inferi in the lake were seeking the horcrux. After all, the most likely person to seek one of Voldemort's horcruxes would be one of his opponents. One would think that at least some of the opponents would have told some of his/her friends what (s)he was up to, and the Order of the Phoenix would have known about the cave sooner than they did.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2006 4:26 pm (#39 of 143)

Geber, I'm with you on that. Upon more research, it states in Cave chapter, "Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes."

I suppose Vold apparated a few hundred corpses into the lake. Or, more likely, he brought them in as he killed them, a little at a time. I don't think Vold had a castle or any specific dwelling so the cave could have been where he lived. I don't think he lived at Gaunt's...

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Choices - Feb 10, 2006 5:13 pm (#40 of 143)

Shadow, you don't think he lived at the old Riddle mansion? I don't remember any evidence in the cave that Voldemort lived there. Surely Dumbledore would have spotted that and told Harry if he suspected Voldemort lived there.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2006 5:38 pm (#41 of 143)

Choices, as I wrote that I wondered if HBP had any canon about Vold living at Gaunts. I didn't think so, but as I am currently re-rereading, I'll soon find out. It just seems the last place Vold would want to live is a muggle village, let alone the town where his hated muggle father came from. And I was referring to his living there years ago, first war as they deem it, not recently. But I'm not sure... more research.

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Puck - Feb 10, 2006 7:13 pm (#42 of 143)

I doubt LV would live in the cave. I see him wanting -and feeling he deserves- something grand.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 11, 2006 1:39 am (#43 of 143)

Who was the rich person who owned the Riddle House in GoF? Could it have been Voldemort?

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Madame Pomfrey - Feb 11, 2006 9:12 am (#44 of 143)

I had thought about that too,Phelim.The villagers said the rich man(it was man wasn't it?) bought it for tax purposes I was thinking it might be Lucius Malfoy but for other purposes.

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Choices - Feb 11, 2006 10:05 am (#45 of 143)

Well, we know that in GOF Voldemort and Wormtail were staying at the Riddle house. I just figured maybe he was still there.

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Puck - Feb 11, 2006 10:43 am (#46 of 143)

I think that the Riddle House stopped being a good hide out the moment DD became aware of LV's return.

I just don't think the cave is comforable enough for him. Plus, I believe he will not stay with a horcrux, as he would want to keep all his soul bits seperate from each other. Safer that way.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 11, 2006 2:16 pm (#47 of 143)

I was thinking Vold and Wormtail went to Riddle Sr.'s manor after Albania, otherwise the caretaker probably would have noticed them before the night he was killed.

Prior to that, prior to the Potter murders, I don't see Vold living in Little Hangleton. It seems fitting, given most Slytherin-related dwellings are subterranean (Snape's office even after he stopped as Potions Master, Slytherin House Common Room, are some examples) I thought perhaps it would be comfortable for Vold to be well hidden and underground. I'm sure he wouldn't have trouble conjuring a few luxury items to surround himself with, as we saw a common tent at the World Quidditch match was easily conjured into a little palace.

Changing the subject, I found it interesting that it's mentioned by Lupin in HBP Draco's Detour chapter that Regulus managed to stay alive a few days after leaving the DE's. I wondered if this meant a few days after visiting the Cave and drinking the potion. If so, it might indicate that DD wasn't going to die on that night...

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Choices - Feb 11, 2006 4:34 pm (#48 of 143)

Shadow - "... given most Slytherin-related dwellings are subterranean"

Well, the Slytherin dormatory is on a lower floor and Snape's office is in the dungeon - how many other Slytherin-related dwellings have we seen? Malfoy lives in a mansion, Slughorn lived in a regular Muggle house when Dumbledore and Harry visited him and Snape's own house (if it is his house) was not underground. The Gaunt's house was above ground and they were related to Slytherin. I don't think we can make the assumption that most Slytherin's have subterranean dwellings.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 11, 2006 7:39 pm (#49 of 143)

Slughorn's house was not his house. He was simply squatting at a Muggle house that he chose because they were on holiday for a week, which he inhabited along with many other Muggle houses in his year of hiding out. Plus, it's been discussed quite a bit how Slughorn does not fit the "typical" Slytherin image, so I think he'd be quite happy living on top of a mountain.

Snape's house was described "as though it were not usually inhabited", and I do believe that Snape was probably never there, preferring the dungeon and darkness in general which is reminiscent of underground dwellings. Even though he was *finally* made DADA teacher, he chose to remain in the dungeon which says a lot.

JKR said somewhere the Slytherin House Common Room is not simply on a lower floor, it is beneath the lake. Since she said Slytherin represents the Water element, it is natural to draw the conclusion that the people associated with Slytherin are associated with water, which is usually not associated with high places. It is associated with the wet, the deep, the dark, the cold. It is also safe to assume, since JKR likes her symbols, that we're dealing with Snake-symbolized people and snakes are generally fond of being under rocks, which is basically what being "underground" is.

The Gaunt house is described as being down a "rocky, sloping downhill" path. It is "half-hidden" with trees "blocking all light", it's walls were "mossy" and "steam or smoke" came from the windows. This to me sounds like JKR is making it as subterranean/cave-like as possible but still being above ground.

In any event, I simply don't see Vold wanting to live there because of his feelings about Muggles, Riddle Sr. and Merope. But, as I said, I could easily be wrong as there's no canon to support that Vold set foot into the Cave after he initially hid the horcrux.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 12, 2006 11:00 am (#50 of 143)

Also, I'm not sure whether Voldemort would chose a cave over the Riddle House when he had recently vacated on in Albania.

Edit: Just had a thought after I posted the first bit. Wasn't the ring hidden in the Gaunt house/cave? And the locket was also hidden in a cave. Does this mean that other horcrux are hidden in subterranean places?
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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2006 1:11 pm (#51 of 143)

Phelim, in my initial post wondering about Vold dwelling in the Cave I specified that I'm referring to where he lived in the *first war*, or when he initially rose in power -- in other words, between when he graduated from Hogwarts up until the Potter murders. I wouldn't think he lived in the Cave after Wormtail found him in Albania, as it seems he was taken to Riddle Sr. manor, but I don't think he lived there previously because the caretaker would have noticed. We know he worked at B&B after graduation, perhaps for a while he lived in Diagon or Knockturn Alley...

Regarding the Gaunt house, we know Vold went there in his final year at Hogwarts as we see in A Sluggish Memory chapter when DD shows Harry Morfin's memory. Riddle uses Morfin's wand to kill Riddle Sr. and the grandparents. DD says, "Then he returned to the Gaunt hovel, performed the complex bit of magic that would implant a false memory in his uncle's mind, laid Morfin's wand beside its unconscious owner, pocketed the ancient ring he wore and departed."

In Horcruxes chapter, DD tells Harry, "I have travelled widely, visiting those places he once knew. I stumbled across the ring hidden in the ruin of the Gaunts' house. It seems that once Voldemort had succeeded in sealing a piece of his soul inside it, he did not want to wear it any more. He hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments, in the shack where his ancestors had once lived...never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment."

From that statement, coupled with his despising Muggles and having no respect for Merope, I do not gather that Vold chose to live at the Gaunts or Little Hangleton.

Phelim, regarding your Edit -- I don't know, it could mean that the horcruxes are hidden in similar places but I wouldn't bet on it.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 13, 2006 1:54 am (#52 of 143)

me and my shadow - yet for much of GoF Voledmort appears to be based at the Riddle House. That is where Harry sees him while asleep, the battle at the end takes place in Little Hangleton. The battle mentioned in HbP appears to have happened at the same time as Dumbledore getting the ring which was hidden at the Gaunts. So Voldemort did CHOSE to live in Little Hangleton, as it met his needs at the time.

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Esther Rose - Feb 13, 2006 9:54 am (#53 of 143)

Here is a rather budding thought that I have. There is no canon in this. It's just a theory.

What if the Potion in the basin was a veritaserum mixed with something that would connect the drinker of the potion to Voldemort so that Voldemort could read their mind no matter where he is.

So, now when Dumbledore is ranting for someone to kill him it is because Voldemort is gaining information from Dumbledore's mind.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 13, 2006 12:31 pm (#54 of 143)

Phelim, true, Vold did stay for a period in GoF at Riddle manor with Wormtail and Nagini, no doubts there, although it seems the resurrection/battle was at Little Hangleton simply because it's where his father's grave was located. Again, I'm speculating as to where he chose to live during his first rise to power as there are many years between graduating from Hogwarts and the Potter murders. But I don't know to which "battle mentioned in HbP" you are referring...?

Esther Rose, I had a vague thought about something along those lines. It's an interesting concept, because as we know young Tom was very concerned that people Tell The Truth. Vold may not be *that* good at Legilmency but he is good at knowing when most people are lying to him (as in first book with Harry having PS in his pocket, and with Wormtail on a few occasions). It could be that he'd want to know the deep, dark truths of whichever Great Wizard made it through all of his obstacles and to the locket.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 14, 2006 9:02 am (#55 of 143)

While he was speaking with Narcissa and Bella in his home Snape spoke of a battle with Voldemort which shook Dumbledore. When speaking with Harry about the ring, Dumbledore spoke of an incident where Snape had to work quickly to save him. I am guessing the two are the same.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 14, 2006 2:42 pm (#56 of 143)

Phelim, I understand now, but I believe the battle Snape refers to in Spinner's End which "shook him" was with Vold at the MoM in OoP. Later, the incident where Snape had to work quickly to save him I thought was the burnt hand due to the curse on the ring. So I see them as two separate incidents, though related in Snape saying that DD's "reactions are slower" than they once were.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 15, 2006 12:56 am (#57 of 143)

I can see why Dumbledore was shaken concerning the battle in the Ministry of Magic but as Dumbledore's hand had already been damaged by the time he collected Harry it could still be the same event.

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Puck - Feb 15, 2006 12:03 pm (#58 of 143)

I'm pretty sure the hand injury occurred collecting the Horcrux. DD was wearing the ring the day he went to fetch Harry.

So, the potion in the basin and the hand injury both led DD to Snape seeking help. Who will Harry go to?

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 15, 2006 3:07 pm (#59 of 143)

I need to make a correction on a previous post -- I'd said that Riddle killed his parents the summer before his final year at Hogwarts, but upon rereading it seems he killed them the summer before his sixth year as Slughorn calls him "prefect" in the memory and not "head boy". In that memory, Riddle had already killed his parents...

Does anyone have a theory as to why Fawkes did not come to DD's aid in the Cave?

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Choices - Feb 15, 2006 5:37 pm (#60 of 143)

Perhaps Dumbledore didn't want Fawkes' help. He knew what he had to do and Fawkes could do nothing to assist him. Harry being there with him was all he needed.

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Puck - Feb 17, 2006 9:22 am (#61 of 143)

Or perhaps he was concerned that there was some magical protection on the cave that Fawkes wouldn't be able to get through.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 17, 2006 3:32 pm (#62 of 143)

Yes, it seems there's a similar discussion going on the Fawkes thread. Interesting...

On another topic, I wondered about DD using his burnt hand to feel the cave walls when he and Harry are in the "ante-chamber". I thought perhaps that hand, being damaged by one of Vold's horcruxes, was more sensitive to the Vold-created obstacles which protected the entrance. He uses the left hand to hold his wand once they are in the inner cave, so it can't be because he needed his right hand to hold the wand...

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 18, 2006 4:21 pm (#63 of 143)

Adding to above comment about DD using burnt hand to feel cave walls, he also uses the burnt hand to examine the potion in the basin. Seems to be significant because if it's burnt and withered, why would he use it for doing things that require heightened sensation ...unless it's now heightened to Vold-magic sensations.

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Jessalynn Quirky - Feb 20, 2006 2:00 pm (#64 of 143)

Adding to what Esther Rose said....if Voldemort could somehow read DD's mind, might that also explain why Snape had to kill DD? To keep Voldemort from learning anything else?

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Matthew B - Feb 21, 2006 7:32 pm (#65 of 143)

Firstly- why did Dumbledore have to drink the potion in the basin? I haven't read HBP in a while so I don't know whether it says why he has to drink it. Couldn’t he have just poured it away?

Secondly- It's been said on another thread (I can’t remember which) that the body that came out of the lake when Harry tried to accio the horcrux, was Regulus Black with the horcrux. I think this is a possibility although Dumbledore would probably have realised.

Matt

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Steve Newton - Feb 22, 2006 6:08 am (#66 of 143)

Matthew, Dumbledore tried dipping, pouring, and everything else he could think of to get rid of the liquid. Nothing else besides drinking worked.

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Matthew B - Feb 22, 2006 3:40 pm (#67 of 143)

Ah, sorry about that then. I haven’t read the book in a while so my memory was a bit vivid about that. Thanks for telling me

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 24, 2006 5:17 pm (#68 of 143)

I wonder what would have happened if DD went alone to the Cave. He could still have made it to the island and drunk the potion but he probably wouldn't have been able to move enough to drink the lake water. If he never disturbed the water, the inferi would probably not have emerged. We know that Vold designed the "trap" for only one wizard on the boat, so how did Vold plan on "questioning" the wizard who penetrated his defenses, etc. Obviously, Vold didn't design the potion to kill the wizard immediately, because he wants to question them.

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Choices - Feb 24, 2006 5:51 pm (#69 of 143)

I don't think anyone would have even made it through drinking the potion. Dumbledore made it to three and a half goblets (I think it was) and then Harry had to begin forcing him to drink more. Had Harry not been there, Dumbledore would not have gone any farther in emptying the basin. He ended up drinking 12 goblets of the potion before the basin was empty and then Harry splashed the lake water in his face.

I, too, am curious how Voldemort would have known that the potion had been drunk and the Horcrux taken.

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Puck - Feb 24, 2006 7:53 pm (#70 of 143)

Maybe he didn't care to question them. Perhaps he just wanted the death to be slow and painful, make the person who dared to touch his "precious" suffer.

DD obviously didn't think LV would have some kind of "alarm", because he thought it possible for Harry to destroy the Horcruxes without LV's knowledge.

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Choices - Feb 25, 2006 11:40 am (#71 of 143)

It was Dumbledore that told Harry....

“Lord Voldemort would not want to kill the person who reached this island.” Harry couldn't believe it. Was this more of Dumbledore's insane determination to see good in everyone?

“I'm sorry Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island,” Dumbledore corrected himself. "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent on emptying the basin. Don't forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes."

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haymoni - Feb 25, 2006 7:46 pm (#72 of 143)

Another argument for those who think Dumbledore was already dying by the time Snape "AK"'d him.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 26, 2006 5:36 am (#73 of 143)

Actually, I would take it as an argument for the opposite, because Voldemort wanted the person alive.

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Puck - Feb 26, 2006 9:25 am (#74 of 143)

Alive, but weak and in pain. Though how long would they be in the cave before LV came to question them? It goes against what DD said about destroying the horcruxes without LV knowing about to thinking he was watching the cave closely enough to know if there was a security breech.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 26, 2006 7:54 pm (#75 of 143)

Hmm, this might go back to my "out there" thought that Vold used to spend a lot of time in the cave. Perhaps, perhaps not. But I agree with Mrs Brisbee that it supports the idea of DD not dying from drinking the potion or lake. Remember, Vold seems to enjoy *personally* killing significant wizards and witches. I'm sure the clever wizard to get through all his obstacles in the cave would qualify as one Vold would like to interrogate and then kill himself.

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Dawn Thompson - Mar 13, 2006 8:24 pm (#76 of 143)

I'll have to go back and look it up...but I don’t remember him trying to dip or pour the potion..

I thought he tried to do things with magic....vanish, transfigure, charm, etc..

But I don’t remember him conjuring up the cup and trying to pour the potion anywhere. He first conjured the cup right after telling Harry that he had tried all the other magical means, and so it must be meant to be drunk.

I have to wonder what would have happened if he had conjured up the cup and a large bowl, and dipped the cup in and poured the potion into the bowl...It might not have worked, but it would have been worth a try!

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 19, 2006 9:26 am (#77 of 143)

That's an awesome idea Dawn! I never thought of that before, but it very easily could have worked and then DD wouldn't have had to suffer, unfortunately we may never know. But you are right, he did try just magical things.(I think that would be a very clever way of concealing a magical item-using ordinary muggle techniques-it would help prevent a wizard from penetrating it, b/c they wouldn't be thinking that way!

I definitely think that LV would want to kill the person who penetrated his strong protection, and he would want to do it himself.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 1:04 pm (#78 of 143)

Well, I wouldn't say drinking the potion was very magical. But you've got a point, Dawn.

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TheSaint - Mar 19, 2006 1:31 pm (#79 of 143)

If the item in question was really a pensieve, then pouring it out makes no sense. He had to come into contact with it in some way, in order for it to work correctly.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 19, 2006 6:00 pm (#80 of 143)

I see your point Finn, about it not really being magical, I must have been thinking out loud when I wrote that and sometimes it comes out not making much sense!

Saint: I see where you are coming from about having to come in contact with it for it to work, but how would it being a pensieve have anything to do with it?

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 8:06 pm (#81 of 143)

That's okay, virginia. Happens to me all the time!

I think TheSaint means that if the basin was a Pensieve the thought inside would need to touch Dumbledore's body. But I agree with you – it could have been anything and Dumbledore would have just needed to touch it.

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TheSaint - Mar 20, 2006 4:57 am (#82 of 143)

As they approach the 'island' Harry thinks that it looks like a penseive. The things Dumbledore says after drinking it lead me to believe that he is seeing a vision, like the penseive, and I tend to think it is Voldemort's memory of what he did to those two children in said cave. Just makes sense to me. Feel free to throw dungbombs!

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Phelim Mcintyre - Mar 20, 2006 6:30 am (#83 of 143)

This could be why the liquid had to be drunk. If it was memories, either of Voldeort or his victims who are now the inferi in the lake, tipping the liquid out would not really have any effect. The memories would need to be absorbed by something living.

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Choices - Mar 20, 2006 10:35 am (#84 of 143)

TheSaint - "....and I tend to think it is Voldemort's memory of what he did to those two children in said cave."

“Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's not their fault, hurt me instead” (may not be exact words, but close)..... If this is Tom Riddle's memory of what he did to the children, who is he pleading with to not hurt the children? It doesn't make sense for Tom to be saying it or for the children to be saying it. If it is Tom and the children, then some third party must have been there pleading with Tom. It makes much more sense to me that it is Dumbledore remembering an incident from his own past - him pleading with a person (Grindelwald, perhaps) not to hurt someone he cares about.

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Finn BV - Mar 20, 2006 12:23 pm (#85 of 143)

I don't think it's a Pensieve because wouldn't Dumbledore "fall into" the basin like he does every other single time we've visited a Pensieve? I think this is some potion which makes you feel emotions that would not want you to continue drinking. Choices' examples follow this.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 20, 2006 1:52 pm (#86 of 143)

I'm gonna have to agree with you Finn, I don't think the basin was a pensieve, because a pensieve has a "clould-like" substance in it, not a thick green potion. No one has ever drank memories, they fall into them.

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TheSaint - Mar 20, 2006 7:36 pm (#87 of 143)

Choices - If this is Tom Riddle's memory of what he did to the children, who is he pleading with to not hurt the children?

Obviously it is Dumbledore doing the pleading, don't hurt them, as he is seeing it. You don't repeat what is going on, you react to it.

Finn BV -I don't think it's a Pensieve because wouldn't Dumbledore "fall into" the basin like he does every other single time we've visited a Pensieve?

As stated previously, when you fall into the penseive you have the option of leaving, or making a choice not to view it. Voldemort would want you imprisoned and poisoned with it.

virginiaelizabeth - because a pensive has a "clould-like" substance in it, not a thick green potion...

Do you know for sure that a memory of pure evil would look just like any other memory?

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haymoni - Mar 20, 2006 7:38 pm (#88 of 143)

Those memories of Marvolo & Morfin looked like the other memories.

They may not have been PURE evil, but they were pretty bad!

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Finn BV - Mar 20, 2006 7:46 pm (#89 of 143)

Right, TheSaint, about the Pensieve – you and I are on the same page. I agree with that. If I was unclear, I apologize.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 20, 2006 9:19 pm (#90 of 143)

We have seen some pretty evil memories before and they weren't any different. We also don't know what the memory DD was forced to re-live (or even if it was a memory) was about. It very well could have been one of DD's memories. I wonder if it has any relation to Dementors-making-you-relive your- worst-memories, and they-they-suck-your-soul-out/LV-has-his-soul-in-the-basin-sorta thing. I know that sound kinda confusing but hopefully yall get my drift.


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frogface - Mar 21, 2006 2:50 am (#91 of 143)

It’s quite an interesting idea, TheSaint. But why would Dumbledore be saying "don't hurt them please, it’s my fault"?(paraphrasing that) How would it have been his fault? The events in the Cave with the children took place before DD met Tom, so DD could not had possibly had any influence over that particular event.

However it does seem evident that Dumbledore saw something, whether that was from his memory, Tom's memory, or a fake vision. And whatever it was he saw, I'm sure it's going to come up in Book Seven in some way.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 21, 2006 9:50 am (#92 of 143)

Maybe pensieve-memories were an ingredient for the green potion.

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haymoni - Mar 21, 2006 10:14 am (#93 of 143)

It just bothers me that Dumbledore seemed to know so much about this Cave and the potion.

How did he know so much?

How did he know that Harry would have to keep feeding him the potion?

It just seems as though he knew what it was but didn't want to tell Harry.

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Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 11:06 am (#94 of 143)

He's Dumbledore. He just knows.

No, seriously, it's like in Young Frankenstein – you just have a feeling that it won't be as easy as drinking it. DD wanted to make sure that no matter what, he would finish drinking the potion. His brain works in such a manner that he had already thought of the possibility that he might not be able to willingly finish.

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Puck - Mar 21, 2006 11:27 am (#95 of 143)

DD knows LV well, understands how his mind works. It makes sense that drinking the potion would be difficult.

I'm suddenly wondering if DD's vision was not past, but present. Perhaps it was the DE entering the school and attacking students that he saw.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 21, 2006 3:30 pm (#96 of 143)

I posted a long theory on the Was the Major Death in Half-Blood Prince Real? thread but I'm not sure how to link it to this thread. But basically builds on what you have said, haymoni, about how DD knows so much. I think that he found out as much as he could about the cave before he and Harry went there and that this was all a plan, created by DD himself. If anyone knows how to link it on here let me know because its long.

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Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 6:54 pm (#97 of 143)

Virginia, do you mean virginiaelizabeth, "+ Was the Major Death in the HBP Real?" #834, 21 Mar 2006 3:06 pm? For linking directions see S.E. Jones, "** Navigating the Forum" #2, 17 Sep 2004 3:39 pm.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 21, 2006 8:22 pm (#98 of 143)

Thanks Finn!!

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geauxtigers - Mar 22, 2006 5:50 am (#99 of 143)

I was also always bothered by how DD knew so much in the cave, too, Haymoni. He knew too much, I know he is DD, but it seems like he’s already been there or at least knew what to expect. It’s one of the reasons that I believe he isn't dead. The whole cave thing is so well played out. He knew that Harry wouldn't register as a wizard, and he knew that he had to drink the potion. How? At first you just think, oh he's DD, he knows everything. But I don't think that’s the case here, but this is just my opinion.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 22, 2006 9:02 pm (#100 of 143)

I think we are led to believe that DD visited the cave at least once before he brought Harry, since he was missing from Hogwarts a bit and had been single-minded in his focus of gaining knowledge about the horcruxes. It's possible he was out and about in other locations, but it's likely he confirmed his theory at cave before lugging Harry there for no reason. So, I agree this lends itself to the idea that it could have been part of a "master plan".

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 24, 2006 2:18 pm (#101 of 143)

Yes I definitely think that he went there before the night with Harry, just to check things out and make sure that It would be safe enough to bring Harry because DD is kinda protective of Harry. I don't think he would want to take hime somewhere that was dangerous and unpredictable.

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frogface - Mar 25, 2006 11:30 am (#102 of 143)

I'm not so sure about that. After all Dumbledore knew that Harry has and will be faced with a lot of dangerous and unpredictable situations, isn't that part of what he's training Harry to do? While Dumbledore would take great lengths to protect Harry, I think he learnt since Sirius died to let Harry shoulder his own burden alot more, otherwise I suspect he would have simply told Harry very kindly that he didn't think it would be wise for Harry to accompany him to the cave.

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virginiaelizabeth - Mar 25, 2006 1:18 pm (#103 of 143)

Yes, the trip to the cave was dangerous, but DD didn't want to start Harry off trying to defend himself from the unknown, he needed to go there first to know what they were up against, before taking him. There could have been something in the cave that killed whoever, was there the second that they got onto the small island. DD doesn't want Harry dead, so he goes and checks it our beforehand. As DD put it, Harry's blood is far more valuable.

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Chinese fireball - Apr 17, 2006 5:50 pm (#104 of 143)

I put this in the magical creatures thread but the cave thread might be even better. Hermione's specialty is waterproof, portable fires. Can they maybe be used to ward off inferi?

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geauxtigers - Apr 17, 2006 6:48 pm (#105 of 143)

I think that’s a given really... I mean it seems obvious and I think that could be part of Hermione's contributions to helping Harry in the final downfall.

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Choices - Apr 18, 2006 8:35 am (#106 of 143)

Dumbledore conjured a ring of crimson and gold fire to ward off the Inferi. Hermione's fire is blue - I'm not sure they are the same or would work the same.

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Mediwitch - Apr 18, 2006 5:43 pm (#107 of 143)

Well, if Hermione's fire is warm and provides light, it should do the trick.

“However, like many creatures that dwell in cold and darkness, they fear light and warmth, which we shall therefore call to our aid should the need arise. Fire, Harry.” (HBP, Scholastic, p.566)

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MzWhizz123 - Aug 5, 2006 7:47 am (#108 of 143)
Edited Aug 5, 2006 8:48 am

Hello, all!

While I was cooking my breakfast this morning something popped into my head that may implicate the cave. At Voldemort's re-birthing he says, "They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death." This sounds to me like the Death Eaters bore witness to the creation of a horcrux. Now, what better place to hold a horcrux-making sorrie than in a great big cave?

We might assume that the diary and the ring had already been created and stashed away for safe-keeping, so LV had become familiar with the process. I would be willing to bet that he felt a public demonstration of his power was the perfect way to show the DEs his commitment to his cause.

Once LV was finished, I could see him placing all sorts of charms and protections on the place to secure it against infiltration. He could have even used "Imperius"ed wizards to test his handiwork, which coould account for the Inferi.

This also explains both how RAB knew the location of the locket; he was either a witness to the event, or heard about it through another DE, and how Dumbledore found the cave, since more than likely Snape was either in attendance or helped with the security by creating the potion afterwards. (This would explain how DD knew he had to drink the potion, what it would do to him, and that he would have to get back to Snape ASAP.)

This raises two questions: 1.) Who was the person whose significant death created the horcrux? (The Black Family Tree tells us that Regulus and his father both died in 1979. Might knowing his father's death had created a horcrux have been enough to make Regulus steal the locket? Hmmm.....) and 2.) If Snape did know the location of the cave, why not tell DD instead of giving his the general vicinity and making him hunt around for it?

I have now finished my breakfast, my dog has licked the plate clean, and I am going to go outside to work in my yard to get away from the dungbombs. <<covers head and sprints out the door>>

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 5, 2006 4:24 pm (#109 of 143)

Dumbledore said that Voldemort thinks he alone knows about his horcruxes, which I myself have wondered if maybe he was wrong, however,R.A.B. stated in his note that it was he that discovered Voldemort’s secret. It doesn't sound like he showed his DE because he called it a secret.

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haymoni - Aug 5, 2006 5:33 pm (#110 of 143)

Perhaps there are Death Eaters and there are Death Eaters.

I mean perhaps there is an Inner Circle among Voldy's followers.

We know from the Black Family Tree and from Sluggy's conversation with Tom Riddle that a number of the current Death Eaters are 2nd Generation.

We know that Voldy "associated with the worst of our kind" and traveled the world to learn how to be immortal. That comment may have been made referencing that time period.

Or...perhaps the First generation of Death Eaters knew what Tom was planning, but the young pups do not.

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MzWhizz123 - Aug 5, 2006 7:17 pm (#111 of 143)

Madame Pomfrey, I, too, wondered about DD's statement that LV was the only one who knew about the horcruxes. But then how would the DEs have known "the steps he took against mortal death"? Maybe there is ANOTHER spell/charm/whatever that they could have witnessed. Then again, maybe RAB WAS NOT part of the event. It would have still been a secret among the INNER Inner circle. Hhmmm...

Haymoni,

Your idea is one I have always thought likely. The very closest of LV's followers each knew a little bit more than the others, but not necessarily the SAME "little bit" if you know what I mean. Each DE, feeling that LV had shared a confidence, would consider him/herself the lost loyal follower and protect their knowledge fiercely. I can totally imagine the first generation being the receivers of certain tidbits not accessible to those who joined ranks later.

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darien - Aug 7, 2006 12:26 am (#112 of 143)

the First generation of Death Eaters knew what Tom was planning, but the young pups do not.

I like that. When Voldemort was saying the " my loyal death eaters, who knew the steps I took against mortal death," he was only referencing to the Top Death Eaters and not the whole lot. This allows for a Death Eater to be RAB and still "discover" his secret as is said in the note. And Regulus was very young, I think, to be one of the Top.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 15, 2006 3:28 am (#113 of 143)

Lucius seems to have known that there was something special about the diary. He knew that it could be used to open the Chamber of Secrets. He knew that whatever was there would possess Ginny. What he didn't know was that the part of Voldemort's soul in the diary would become obsessed with Harry Potter. Yes I'm reading between the lines but Lucius knew more about the diary than is let on. He also appears to have been part of an inner circle as Voldemort trusted him with the diary. If Lucius knew about a horcrux then other "generals" could do likewise - I'm thinking of Bella. I don't think all the Death Eaters knew but a select few knew of one of the horcrux. This would make sense. Lucius and one other knew of the diary. A few knew of the locket. A couple knew of the cup or ring. But none knew of the total that had been made.

I doubt Snape knew of the horcruxes as he says at Spinner End that he believed Voldemort to be finished.

Could one of these have blabbed about the Cave? Could it have been the green liquid that have killed of Regulus? We know that Sirius says he was killed (but by a Death Eater not Voldemort). Could Voldemort have sensed Regulus betrayal of removing the locket but not what he had done? Could it have been the protection on the locket or even the part of Voldemort's soul in the horcrux that killed Regulus? Too many questions and only one book to get the answers from.

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Puck - Aug 18, 2006 9:01 am (#114 of 143)

I don't think Lucius knew that the diary was, other than a means of opening the chamber. He would not have trusted it in the hands of students. Plus, he also believed LV had been finished. Any devoted follower with one of LV's Horcruxes in his hand -and knowing he had it- would have searched for his master. Just my 2 knuts.

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haymoni - Aug 18, 2006 9:18 am (#115 of 143)

I don't think he knew what the diary was either.

If he knew that a Voldy soul-bit was inside, he would either try to find a way to bring him back or he would destroy it in the hopes that he could continue the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed.

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Puck - Aug 18, 2006 6:29 pm (#116 of 143)

Plus, LV has never been trusting of anyone. It may be possible some knew he had a horcrux, but not more than one. He likely wouldn't tell them what the object was. If some knew the cave was special, they wouldn't be told why -though it may be simple enough for some to guess why he went to great lengths to guard a cave. (A few DE may have helped fill the lake with inferi.)

I cannot see him handing over an unprotected horcrux and disclosing it's true nature to anyone.

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]LooneyLuna - Aug 26, 2006 7:36 am (#117 of 143)
Edited Aug 26, 2006 8:45 am

Bella kept searching for Voldemort after his demise because she knew Voldemort wasn't completely gone. Malfoy & Snape did not because they didn't know about any of the horcruxes. Malfoy had the diary, but didn't know exactly what it was. Otherwise, he wouldn't have given it to Ginny Weasley.

Bella knew of at least one - the one she was entrusted with hiding.

Things that make you go hmmmmm.....

And I do like the "inner circle" of original DE's theory. Regulus was probably brought in by Bella, his cousin. So, who else might have hidden a horcrux? Bella, Rabastan and Barty Crouch Jr. never lost faith - they always thought Voldemort would come back. More things that make you go hmmmm....

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 1, 2006 6:10 am (#118 of 143)

LooneyLuna, I agree. There is more to the issue of who knew about horcruxes than just LV not trusting anyone.

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Gerald Costales - Sep 24, 2006 3:42 pm (#119 of 143)
Edited Sep 24, 2006 4:43 pm

There is more to the issue of who knew about horcruxes than just LV not trusting anyone. Phelim Mcintyre

I would divide the Death Eaters into three groups. People who knew Voldemort as Tom Riddle or students at Hogwarts before 1945. Since these people have known Voldemort the longest, these people would seem candidates for Voldemort's Inner Circle. (Tom's generation)

The Second Group would be people who joined the Death Eater after 1945 to his fall. A few from this group would be in the Inner Circle. I would guess Lucius and may be Wormtail are possible candidates to be included in the Inner Circle (Lucius' generation)

The Final Group (as someone dubbed the Death Nibblers, sorry I don't know who coined this label) would be people who joined after his fall to the present. (Draco's generation) I think that no one from this group would be in the Inner Circle. Draco may know a select secret but Draco is still not trustworthy for any really important duties or information. ;-) GC

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shepherdess - Sep 25, 2006 8:32 pm (#120 of 143)

The term "Death Nibblers" was coined by our own Timrew, while the forum was on EZboard after OoP came out.

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valuereflection - Oct 17, 2006 6:58 pm (#121 of 143)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 8:28 pm

Lucius did not know that the diary was a horcrux. My impression is that Dumbledore gathered evidence to confirm this, probably from DD's spies and / or Lucius himself. Just to recap, here is what DD said in HPB chapter 23:

...Of course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted. Had Lucius known he held a portion of his master's soul in his hands, he would undoubtedly have treated it with more reverence -- but instead he...carried out the old plan for his own ends...Ah poor Lucius...what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain, and the fiasco at the Ministry last year, I would not be surprised if he is not secretly glad to be safe in Azkaban at the moment.

DD also said during that same lesson, "...on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. 'I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality.' ...And I thought I knew what that meant though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes, Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do not believe any other wizard has ever had..."

So what did Voldemort mean when he said, "my loyal death eaters who knew the the steps I took against mortal death?" That was part of his scripted speech to impress the Death Eaters with his power. I don't believe LV; no Death Eater actually knew the steps he took against mortal death. But LV put on an act which made them believe that they knew. As part of his act, he probably boasted with stories about how he had travelled the world in order to learn how to counteract mortality -- without revealing too many precise details about how much he had learned. From his earlier boasts, they knew that he that he had taken steps and why. But he didn't allow his Death Eaters to press him for more details. Within this "political speech" which LV gave, I felt the phrase "knew the steps I took," had no more meaning than a figure of speech designed to remind them how much smarter and more powerful he was than themselves. Because of all he had done -- except he wouldn't tolerate much questioning about exactly what all he had done. He probably said to each one something like, "If you prove your loyalty, then you will have proven that you are ready to earn the reward of me teaching you some more."

R.A.B.'s letter to LV said, "...it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux..." The tone of his/her letter sounded to me like he/she was very proud of discovering that Voldemort made a Horcrux, because that was not common knowledge among the Death Eaters, and he/she did not guess that Voldemort made more than one Horcrux.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2006 7:11 pm (#122 of 143)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 8:18 pm

Valuereflection I respectfully disagree that there were no Death Eaters or other individuals who knew of Voldemort's Horcruxes, the existence of the fake locket in the cave demonstrates.

I tend to think however, that the majority of the individuals who knew the whole truth about the Horcruxes are dead or incarcerated in Azkaban.

The individuals, I would speculate, had some knowledge of Voldemort's Horcruxes include Nott, Rosier Sr., Avery Sr., Dolohov, and R.A.B.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 17, 2006 8:03 pm (#123 of 143)

Nathan what makes you think that? I have never thought that Voldemort trusted anyone, just used them, Death Eaters included. His reference to going further than anyone to immortality to me meant that although he was virtually vapor, he did not die. That he was just making that point to them.

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valuereflection - Oct 17, 2006 8:15 pm (#124 of 143)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 10:44 pm

Okay, Nathan Zimmerman. If your speculation turns out to be correct, I think that it would create a more intriguing story than my idea would in Book 7. But my interpretation works for me. Right now I don't think we have sufficient information to know.

The Gaunt house is described as being down a "rocky, sloping downhill" path. It is "half-hidden" with trees "blocking all light", it's walls were "mossy" and "steam or smoke" came from the windows. This to me sounds like JKR is making it as subterranean/cave-like as possible but still being above ground. (Post #49)

What a great observation, me and my shadow 813!

What first impressed me about The Cave (in HPB chapter 26) was the realistic description of the setting. JKR has used a cave setting in the series before, but given much less description. For example, Sirius' cave in the mountain above Hogsmeade in GF -- her description was so minimal that HRH could have met with Sirius in some deserted room practically anywhere. I have been spelunking or touring on a few occasions, within caves of various types, and JKR's description of Sirius' cave didn't sound to me like her characters were inside a real cave. Or that cave was very boring.

But from JKR's description in HBP, I felt as if JKR had spent time inside a real sea-cave. First she described the difficulty of reaching it through mountaineering and swimming. Then she described the anteroom / outer room, the large inner chamber, and the underground lake in a challenging manner that made me feel as if I were walking behind Harry during this mysterious adventure. When he and DD left, she even remembered the sea water had filled the crevice in the cliff -- I pictured that the tide had risen somewhat since their arrival.

So everybody calls LV's sea-cave "The Cave" now. But I recently realized how very many caves JKR used before the sea-cave (without describing them much). There was the Hogwarts underground harbor in PS/SS chapter 6, Sirius' cave in GF chapter 27, the 7 caves in the mountains which Hagrid and Madame Maxime entered in OotP chapter 20, and the nice big cave in the mountains which DD found for Grawp in HPB chapter 8. That's a lot of caves.

Is there someone on the forum who has studied literature and could explain the symbolic meaning of caves?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2006 8:50 pm (#125 of 143)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 10:10 pm

Valuereflection and Thom, my speculation is based on this portion of Voldemort's speech in GoF.

“And then I ask myself, but, how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took long ago to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?" (GoF Large Print Edition page 826).

This quotation implies that certain Death Eaters may have been aware of the Horcruxes and of their locations including the cave.

As I said in my earlier post I believe that tend to think however, that the majority of the individuals who knew the whole truth about the Horcruxes are dead or incarcerated in Azkaban.

The individuals I would speculate had some knowledge of Voldemort's Horcruxes include Nott, Rosier Sr., Avery Sr., Dolohov, the Lestrange mentioned in HBP chapter 17 and HBP 23 and subsequently well as R.A.B. although I doubt R.A.B. was entrusted with information, I find it more likely that he discovered this information through some other means.

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Soul Search - Oct 18, 2006 6:50 am (#126 of 143)

I think Voldmeort had performed magic to make his body immortal, separate from the horcruxes, which meant his soul could not leave the mortal plane.

In his GoF rebirthing rant, Voldemort says he would be satisfied with a mortal body, implying that his previous body was more than mortal. Death eaters could have well known about the steps he took to make his body more than mortal, without knowing about the horcruxes.

I tend to think that Voldmeort would not have trusted even his closest death eaters with the knowledge of his horcruxes, especially about his multiple horcruxes.

The more I think of it, R.A.B. may have been targeted for death because he learned of a horcrux.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 18, 2006 8:13 am (#127 of 143)

Thanks Nathan, I can see your point. I'll have to give that more thought then I originally did.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 18, 2006 8:28 am (#128 of 143)

Valuereflection, regarding your question on the symbolic meaning of caves. I would suggest raising the question in the Literary Symbolism thread because, it is trove of knowledge about symbols and symbolism as is the Alchemy thread.

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Choices - Oct 18, 2006 10:39 am (#129 of 143)

I think Voldemort's DE's did know that he was experimenting with becoming immortal, that he was searching for a way. They probably knew he sought the Sorcerer's Stone and was thwarted in his efforts to get it. However, I do not think he shared with them exactly how he was going about seeking immortality and I do not think they knew about the Horcruxes. I am not convinced that R.A.B. was a DE, but we shall see.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 19, 2006 2:59 am (#130 of 143)

Doesn't R.A.B start the letter to the Dark Lord, something we have only seen Death Eaters (including Snape) use? This suggests that RAB was a Death Eater.

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haymoni - Oct 19, 2006 4:46 am (#131 of 143)

It is possible that R.A.B. was a follower but wasn't tattoo'd.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2006 5:40 pm (#132 of 143)

I've seen it suggested (I think on the 'RAB' thread) that Voldemort would've Imperio-ed someone to get his horcrux for him, but Dumbledore suggested that Voldemort, himself, would want to be able to get to it, so I was thinking, what in the cave would harm everyone but Voldemort. Dumbledore points out that only a very powerful wizard could've found the boat and that it would only hold one wizard at a time. The inferi wake if the water is touched or if you attempt to touch the horcrux (I'm thinking Dumbledore was right about this too, that they would've waken even if Harry hadn't touched the water once he tried to actually grab and leave with the Horcrux). The boat and the inferi wouldn't have been a problem for Voldemort (he could've used the same flame spell Dumbledore used). No, the problem would've been the potion, which leads me to believe that he either wouldn't have to drink it (as some have suggested, anyone with a Dark Mark might be able to get through it, but we don't know if Voldemort himself wears the brand; or maybe the liquid simply parts for Voldemort) or he wouldn't have been affected by it. I'm thinking that it works on a person much the way a dementor's presence does, as others have suggested before. It's been pointed out Voldemort has long since lost his most human emotions of love, compassion, remorse, etc. If the potion causes you to see someone you love harmed, or for you to relive your most tragic memories, then Voldemort wouldn't be affected in the least as he can't love and thus can't feel remorse. Any other thoughts on how Voldemort would've gone about getting to his horcrux in the cave?

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Choices - Oct 19, 2006 6:22 pm (#133 of 143)

I am trying to imagine a situation in which Voldemort would need to get the Horcrux. It does not have to be on his person or even near him to work, it only has to exist somewhere. I suppose he might just feel the need to see the locket - but that is all I can think of. He made the locket a Horcrux, hid it in a safe place, it will hold his soul to this plane of existence.....what reason would he have to go get it out of the basin? Surely he won't just get lonely for that particular soul bit?

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Hoot Owl - Oct 19, 2006 7:15 pm (#134 of 143)

Perhaps LV knows the exact counter spell, in case he ever wanted to check if that horcrux was still there.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2006 12:57 am (#135 of 143)

Regarding whether or not the Death Eaters knew of the Horcruxes, I was watching a program on the History Channel, and it was all about candy making.

There were tours through various manufacturing plants, and a step-by-step showing of how major brands of candy are made. The one thing most of them said, though, was at the point where specific ingredients such as flavorings were added, and all they would say was that the exact flavorings were a secret.

I doubt if the Horcruxes are the only thing Voldemort did to try to become immortal, and he could have told the Death Eaters about various processes, but leaving out the specific details. Even if he semi-explained about Horcruxes, he wouldn't have to go into great detail. He could easily say that he had developed a spell that would keep him alive, and that specific objects had to be used.

Most of the Death Eaters probably wouldn't try to find out the exact details, although R.A.B. found out something.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2006 1:11 am (#136 of 143)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 2:11 am

Good points on Voldemort not divulging too much info, Weeny. Knowledge is power (especially when you're dealing with magic) so I don't think Voldemort would've wanted his little followers to have too much knowledge on anything he did, knows, etc.

I really don't think Voldemort would've told the DEs about the Horcruxes. We have Dumbledore saying that Voldemort doesn't think any DEs know about them (and I think we can trust Dumbledore on most all things Voldemort related), but we also have Voldemort saying "they who knew the steps I took long ago, to guard myself against mortal death", but I don' t think these statements are contradictory. Voldemort doesn't say what "they" know, just that they know he took steps. Dumbledore pointed out that Voldemort travelled far and wide studying various dark magic and seeking those who would teach him, so his comment in the graveyard could've simply been a reference to his DEs knowing that he'd gone looking for various dark ways to prolong death. Also, he mentions "steps" (plural, not "step" singular) so, they may have known about potions involving unicorn blood or who knows what without ever having heard about Voldemort looking into Horcruxes.

Now, the interesting thing will be finding out just how RAB learned of them....

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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2006 11:16 am (#137 of 143)

A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous. It is better to either really inform people or not tell them anything. Most things go wrong with a little knowledge.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2006 12:12 pm (#138 of 143)

Knowledge is power (especially when you're dealing with magic) so I don't think Voldemort would've wanted his little followers to have too much knowledge on anything he did, knows, etc.

That reminds me of what JKR said about Tom Riddle and the scene with Hagrid that Harry saw in the diary: Riddle was lying when he said that Hagrid had raised werewolf cubs under his bed.

Voldemort is a liar when it suits him, and even if he says that his Death Eaters know what steps he took, why would he be telling the truth? He was trying to impress them with his return, and he was telling an elaborate story.

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T Vrana - Oct 21, 2006 4:59 pm (#139 of 143)

I think LV thinks there is only one person who may know about his horcruxes...Slughorn. I think that is why Slughorn was moving once a week...

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Mattew Bates - Oct 24, 2006 8:22 pm (#140 of 143)

... the problem would've been the potion, which leads me to believe that he either wouldn't have to drink it ... or he wouldn't have been affected by it.

I have an idea about another way past the potion, S.E. Jones. Perhaps the potion would be neutralized if scooped out and drunk using Hufflepuff's Cup.

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Mattew Bates - Oct 30, 2006 1:47 pm (#141 of 143)

I'm cross-posting this to the Horcruxes, Inferi, and Cave threads. It's an expansion on some things brought up in the” R.A.B. - Your Thoughts?” thread, but the ideas don't really concern R.A.B., and the conversation about it had died down there anyway, so I thought relocation to be the best option.

Voldemort would have wanted to be able to check on the cave without anyone's assistance. Indeed, he set up the cave so that only one fully qualified wizard could make it to the center at any given time, so I'm not sure that he could bring help even if he wanted to. Still, the way Dumbledore found past the potion required assistance. For Voldey to have an unassisted way past, it should involve one of the following:

1) a way past the barrier at the surface of the potion (a dark mark barrier or similar) 2) a potion that does him no harm (no conscience = no regrets) 3) a non-wizard assistant (like Harry or Kreature) 4) carrying in an antidote to the potion 5) having another way to neutralize the potion

This small bundle of interlocking theories involves the fifth way past. Hypothetically, Voldey goes to check up on the cave. Once on the pedestal island, he summons a specific inferius (something he can presumably do as its creator), and retrieves Hufflepuff's Cup from it. He uses it to drink the pedestal potion. This hinges on the idea that the intrinsic magic of the cup would neutralize the ill effects of the potion. After all, many Holy Grail myths involve it having poison neutralizing powers.

Pure speculation, surely, but it still answers the question as to why a body rose to the surface when Harry accio-ed a horcrux. It has the added benefit of convenience, as no special preparations are necessary for Voldey to check the horcruxes at the drop of a hat.

The biggest detractor to this theory, as far as I can see, is that Voldey would be unlikely to risk hiding two of his precious shiny things on one place. Still, putting one at the obvious focal point in the middle of the lake would certainly distract from the possible presence of another.

P.S. - as I was writing this, it occurred to me that if Voldey can order around the Inferi, then he could probably make them drink the potion per option 3. A bit more in line with Occam's Razor, but I still like all three of my theories.

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valuereflection - Nov 1, 2006 2:52 pm (#142 of 143)

Mattew Bates, have you read the new "Scribbulus" essays at The Leaky Cauldron? There is a new essay about Hufflepuff's cup being a portkey to transport Harry to the final battle. How do think that essay might blend into your ideas?

*link to Scribbulus*

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Mattew Bates - Nov 1, 2006 4:10 pm (#143 of 143)

It's interesting, and it would be a smart protection, but I think if Voldey was going to put it on one horcrux, it would go on all of them - most would only think he made one (R.A.B., for example), and he wouldn't want to give them a chance to discover otherwise - he'd port them in and kill them before they had a chance to do him any damage. If I look past that objection, I would still want to put the protection on the more obvious of two horcruxes hidden in the same location - in my theory, the locket. Also, from a story-telling aspect, it puts Harry at Voldey's side before he's likely to have had a chance to kill Nagini. This would put him at a distinct disadvantage - good strategy for Voldey, a tough pickle to write Harry out of for JKR.

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