Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0

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Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0 Empty Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0

Post  Potteraholic on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:36 pm

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


zelmia - Jun 25, 2006 10:12 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 11, 2006 8:04 am

I wanted to resurrect this old Thread even for a short while because Dumbledore's remark to Harry in HBP that he didn't think Lucius Malfoy knew the true purpose of the Diary harkens back to our discussion on the original Diary Thread.

At that time we had suggested that perhaps Lucius did indeed know precisely what the Diary was for, which is why Voldemort was so angry with him. To Voldemort's mind Lucius had wasted the Diary for his own selfish purposes - and this did turn out to be the case. But we had originally believed that the Diary was meant to provide Voldemort with a means to resurrect himself. (Of course we didn't know then that the Diary was actually a means to prevent Death in the first place.)

However, as far as Lucius' knowledge of the Diary is concerned, Dumbledore seems to disagree.

Where it becomes confusing is that Dobby the House Elf most certainly did know of the Diary's true purpose. So if Lucius really didn't know what the Diary was for, what was "the Plot" to which Dobby repeatedly referred? What Plot was so dastardly that Dobby thought it should prevent Harry from returning to school? And was it Lucius who had formulated this Plot, or was it someone else? Narcissa, perhaps?
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Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0 Empty Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0 (posts #1 to #35)

Post  Potteraholic on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:39 pm

Mrs. D. - Jun 25, 2006 10:22 pm (#1 of 61)

I had always thought the plot was to reopen the chamber and get the basilisk to attack people. I thought Lucius knew Voldemort had enchanted the book, but didn't realize how "special" the book really was.




zelmia - Jun 25, 2006 10:23 pm (#2 of 61)

By the way: Here is the link to The Original Diary Thread




geauxtigers - Jun 25, 2006 10:54 pm (#3 of 61)

I agree with Mrs. D here. I always thought that Dobby had overheard Lucius talking about the Chamber of Secrets and how the "monster" was going to kill people... Well Dobby, being in the home he was in must have know all about Voldemort and Harry and what not. I think Dobby is smarter than he’s given credit for. I use the word smarter meaning he knows more than we give him credit for. I can easily see him overhearing the plot and how it would open the Chamber and how Harry would hopefully die etc. Thus him appearing in Harry's room.




So Sirius - Jun 26, 2006 6:17 am (#4 of 61)

I think that although the DE's fear LV, because they realize he can't be killed, mainly, as well as his superior magical skills... I don't suspect they have any clue about how or why, this is. LV wouldn't entrust anyone to know this valuable detail. I seriously doubt that Malfoy knew what the diary really was and took it upon himself to use the book to cause havoc upon the school and Dobby wanted to protect Harry, in particular, for some reason. This, more than anything, I find odd. We know Dobby was a free thinker, but to risk so much to save Harry, was quite something.

On a side note: I was thinking about DD's hand upon destroying the horcrux (ring) and thought when reading it, it was the act of destroying it that caused his hand to wither. I realize now that it was enchantments surrounding the ring that DD was afflicted by. I wonder why the diary, as a precious horcrux, didn't have the same enchantments, put on it? Perhaps it's true that LV left it with Malfoy to use at some point, in case of, oh say, losing a body. But, I don't imagine Malfoy knew this part of the plan. But, LV, being egotistical, didn't just think regaining his body would be enough, he had to open the chamber again and this was yet another mistake on his part.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 26, 2006 9:13 am (#5 of 61)

I find that Dobby risking himself to save Harry odd, also. If Dobby was aware of the basilisk possibly being released to kill Muggle-borns, why did Dobby seek Harry and not Dumbledore? Dobby also realized that the CoS had been opened once before, Dumbledore was there at that time, so why did he not warn Dumbledore? Also, why would Dobby fear for Harry when Harry is not a Muggle-born? I haven't read CoS in some time now. Am I missing something?




Choices - Jun 26, 2006 9:26 am (#6 of 61)
Edited Jun 26, 2006 10:29 am

I think Voldemort had more than one purpose for the diary. Yes, he hid a soul bit in it, but he also enclosed a memory of his 16-year-old self in it. He had planned to trick some student into opening the Chamber of Secrets again, releasing the basilisk and it killing students he considered "undesirables". Voldemort gives the diary to Lucius to keep until he is ready to put his plan into action, but in the mean time, Voldemort is killed (body) and his soul flies off to hide in a far off forest, leaving his DE's to think him gone for good. I think Lucius did not know the diary was a Horcrux or he would have known Voldemort would come back. So, Lucius bides his time holding onto the diary - he knows about the diary as a plan to open the chamber again - Lucius is ticked off at Arthur Weasley for the raids upon his house, so he plants the diary in Ginny's cauldron when he sees them in Diagon Alley and she carries the diary to Hogwarts. Lucius wants her to be caught opening the Chamber of Secrets and knows it will discredit Arthur and embarrass him. It is only after diary Tom learns about Harry and what happened as a baby, that Harry then becomes his target. I agree Madame Pomfrey as to why Dobby didn't go to Dumbledore - I don't know, maybe he did and Dumbledore sent him to Harry.....as a test/learning experience for Harry.




Mattew Bates - Jun 26, 2006 9:46 am (#7 of 61)

Perhaps Lucius' original plan, the one he spoke of in front of Dobby, was to give the Diary to Harry. If so, he changed his mind after Arthur's raids without consulting his house elf (the nerve!). That might account for Dobby's focus on protecting Harry.




Dr Filibuster - Jun 26, 2006 12:33 pm (#8 of 61)

Why did Dobby go to Harry not Dumbledore in the beginning of CoS? VERY good question.

1) OK, here's a weird thought that just popped into my head; what if Dobby is a horcrux? Maybe that's why he instinctively knew a regenerated Voldemort would try and kill Harry AND that Harry was the "chosen one".

2)Then again. perhaps he just realised all that after learning what happened at Godric's Hollow and possibly overhearing something about the prophecy?

3)The Malfoys at some time expressly forbid him to go to Dumbledore or the authorities.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 26, 2006 1:56 pm (#9 of 61)

My guess would be that Malfoy forbid Dobby to go to Dumbledore about anything, but he didn't forbid him to go to Harry. The only problem with this is that Dobby was forbidden to tell because he goes on about having to shut his ears in the oven door. If Dobby was forbidden to tell any of it, but he goes and tells Harry, he's breaking his promise, so why wouldn't he have told Dumbledore? Why Harry? If he was going to break his promise anyway, then why would he tell Harry, why was it so important for him to protect Harry in particular?




Magic Words - Jun 26, 2006 3:08 pm (#10 of 61)

I always thought he couldn't disobey a direct order, and the punishments came from doing things he knew his family would disapprove of, even thought they hadn't forbidden it.




Jewel - Jun 26, 2006 3:38 pm (#11 of 61)

If I'm remembering correctly Dobby doesn't really "tell" Harry much of anything except that he should not go to Hogwarts that year for his own safety. If I am wrong, please correct me!




Choices - Jun 26, 2006 3:55 pm (#12 of 61)

I believe Dobby says there is a plot to make most terrible things happen at Hogwarts - he tells this to Harry.




Jewel - Jun 26, 2006 4:03 pm (#13 of 61)

Sorry, forgot about that one! I've been sick with strep throat (sp.?) and it must be moving into my brain!

But Dobby still doesn't give very specific warnings does he?




Choices - Jun 26, 2006 4:07 pm (#14 of 61)

No he doesn't, but he sure goes all out to keep Harry from going/staying at Hogwarts.

Hope that throat is better soon, Jewel!!! ****healing charms for you****




haymoni - Jun 26, 2006 5:31 pm (#15 of 61)

I could be movie contaminated, but Dobby goes on about how terrible things were before Harry got rid of Voldy.

If he thinks Voldy is coming back, he needs to keep Harry safe so that Harry can take care of business again.




zelmia - Jun 26, 2006 6:19 pm (#16 of 61)

Very good ideas, everyone! Allow me to recap for a moment:

Dobby repeatedly mentions "a plot". This clearly implies that he overheard someone in the Malfoy family discussing something. Why Dobby chooses to go to Harry and not Dumbledore is a mystery. Therefore it seems safe to conclude that "the Plot" must have been meant for Harry - whatever that may have been.

Lucius surreptitiously gives Ginny Weasley the Diary. Now, here's where it becomes confusing. In order for the Diary to be the key element in "the Plot", it would be necessary for Lucius to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the Diary's true nature. How else could he have known that Ginny could become possessed by writing in it and, as a result, responsible for opening the Chamber? This supposition is basically confirmed by Draco's remark to Ron-as-Crabbe and Harry-as-Goyle: "My father says to keep my head down and let Slytherin's heir get on with it." Lucius must have known what the Diary was capable of.

How could Lucius have known that much about the Diary without knowing it was really a Horcrux? Dumbledore says he doesn't think Lucius knew about the Diary. Therefore we can conclude that that is what Jo wants us to know. Hmm...

Finally, even after Ginny had been given the Diary, Dobby still insisted that Harry was in grave danger. Why? Again, Dobby seems to know a great deal more than anyone regarding the Diary and its true purpose. However, he does not share this with Dumbledore. And ultimately, Harry is not in as much danger as Dobby seems to think. Even Dumbledore leaves Harry to deal with the Basilisk on his own - though of course he does send Fawkes to help. Was there something missing from Dobby's warning?

Was "the Plot" to release Diary Tom upon the world? It sort of seems so. In which case, Lucius clearly knew what potential the Diary held.

Whew! That's enough for now. Your thoughts?




Magic Words - Jun 26, 2006 6:37 pm (#17 of 61)

Dumbledore said Lucius believed the diary would open the Chamber of Secrets because it was cleverly enchanted. My guess is that Voldemort gave him this object that he wanted him to take very good care of, so he needed some excuse for why the diary would be so important. So he told a part truth, leaving out the Horcrux bit. So Lucius could have known everything about the diary except the fact that it contained a soul piece. Or he could have known nothing more than "If you give this to a Hogwarts student the Chamber of Secrets will open."




haymoni - Jun 26, 2006 6:39 pm (#18 of 61)

We have to establish if "Diary Tom" is the memory or the Horcrux.

If Diary Tom is the memory, it is quite possible that Lucius & therefore, Dobby, knew that the young man preserved in the diary could cause enough trouble for anyone that came in contact with the book. Whether Lucius planned on giving the diary to Ginny or to Harry really wouldn't matter. The damage would be done.

If Diary Tom is the Horcrux, I would say that Lucius didn't know about it and possibly the "Tom" that writes is the memory - he's there to give instructions to open The Chamber to whomever finds the diary. He ends up becoming physical, however, because of the Horcrux and being able to "feed" off Ginny.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 26, 2006 8:25 pm (#19 of 61)

I think that Diary Tom is the horcrux. In HBP horcrux chapter Dumbledore says:

"Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No something more sinister had lived inside that book....a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it. The diary had been a Horcrux. But this raised as many questions as it answered.........What intrigued and alarmed me most was that the diary had been intended as a weapon as much as a safeguard."

This makes me think that it had to have been the horcrux part of the diary that made Tom come out of the book, and what not. What does everyone else think?




Jewel - Jun 27, 2006 12:57 am (#20 of 61)

Thanks for the healing charms Choices! The doctor has had me on antibiotics for three days now, so I'm starting to feel a little better, hopefully it speeds up because I've got a vacation planned for this weekend!**crossing fingers**

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. I agree with you, virginiaelizabeth, it seems that "Diary Tom" was the soul bit. This is the paragraph right after Harry plunged the basilisk fang into the diary.

"There was a long, dreadful, piercing scream. Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry's hands, flooding the floor. Riddle was writhing and twisting, screaming and flailing and then- He had gone.

Of course, one could also argue that if Diary Tom was only the memory , then he would have gone when the diary was destroyed anyway.

Who knows if we'll ever really know? That's what makes this place so fun!




zelmia - Jun 27, 2006 3:09 am (#21 of 61)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 4:10 am

I think VirginiaElizabeth is on to something. The fact that Dumbledore seems to recognize Diary Tom as "something sinister" seems to confirm that the Diary was indeed a Horcrux. This seems to be given to us, the Readers, outright.

Now, how does this coincide with "the Plot" that Dobby fears so much? What was the original intention of the Diary that Lucius clearly used to his own devices?

Lucius must have known what the Diary could do in terms of opening the Chamber. But even so, why waste in on Ginny? In other words, how could he know that she would even use it in such a way as to facilitate that?

And if the Diary was initially meant for Harry, what could that have done? Harry would have written in the Diary and then.... I think ultimately it would have played out as it did.

Seems that Lucius really didn't think his "plot" through very well. Even so, Dobby was terrified of it nonetheless.




rambkowalczyk - Jun 27, 2006 3:16 am (#22 of 61)

I thought Voldemort gave the diary to Bella, not Lucius. He only had it because she gave it Narcissa after she was sentenced to Azkaban. Lucius, therefore has the diary's "purpose" third hand.

Also Dobby wanting to save Harry, doesn't necessarily mean that Harry was in more danger than other students, only that Dobby felt a deep gratitude to Harry for defeating the Dark Lord as a baby.

As someone else had mentioned, I'm sure Dobby was given specific instructions not no talk to Dumbledore or the authorities and not to discuss anything he overheard.

It was his recognition of his debt, that allowed him to approach Harry although he couldn't give him specific information.




TheSaint - Jun 27, 2006 3:31 am (#23 of 61)

He 'wasted' the diary on Ginny to discredit her father and get him off his back. Nothing to do with advancing Voldie’s cause, or making the future safe for his boss. He was just sick of Arthur suspecting him and trying to get Muggle protection acts passed.

I tend to think this is a wicked enough plan. Results would be the same as Hagrid's case. An innocent would be blamed and suspended from school, and others would die.

Dobby was protecting Harry as he was the heir...heir of the Parseltongue and, if he is a horcrux, actually part of Voldie himself. Heir to himself.




haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 4:26 am (#24 of 61)

Diary Tom says that he preserved his 16-year-old self in the diary to lead someone else to the Chamber. I think that was step one.

I'll definitely accept that he made the diary a Horcrux holder from the get-go (possibly with Myrtle's death, although that seems almost accidental - the basilisk killed her, not Tom), but the preservation of the 16-year-old self is what hangs me up. When you create the soul bit, is there age connected with it? i.e. is this particular soul bit Voldy at 16?

Or did he just preserve his memory in the book when Dumbledore started catching on and then make it a Horcrux later?




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 27, 2006 10:19 am (#25 of 61)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 11:21 am

but the preservation of the 16-year-old self is what hangs me up. When you create the soul bit, is there age connected with it? i.e. is this particular soul bit Voldy at 16? haymoni

I'm not really sure, but I'll hazard a guess here. At this point I think it's safe to say that he has murdered his father and grandparents, so that's four tears in his soul. When he decided to make the diary to reopen the chamber, then he probably got the idea at this point, to make it into a horcrux as well. Maybe this is how you can make a memory "come alive" maybe a bit of soul is required to make it happen. I think it goes back to what Dumbledore said:

"A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No something more sinister had lived inside that book....a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it"

I think that this is very telling because Dumbledore implies here that a normal memory doesn't act in a possessive way. A normal memory doesn't have the ability to control another person, to possess them. I think it's the soul bit that took over Ginny. But then, what would be the purpose of putting a memory inside? Why did Riddle need to preserve himself as a 16 year old in a diary? Are all horcruxes like this? This also goes against the whole, horcruxes don't draw attention to themselves statement, so maybe the memory was there to get the readers attention, make them read the book. The soul bit is the thing that possessed the reader, while the memory got their attention. Sorry for rambling, I'm working this out in my head as I Write it so sorry if it doesn't make much sense! So confusing! Your thoughts?




haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 10:44 am (#26 of 61)

That's why I think this was a 2-part thing.

First he made the memory so someone could let the basilisk out and then later he made it a Horcrux, so it wasn't just a memory anymore.




Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 11:17 am (#27 of 61)

I'm thinking more along the lines of emergent properties. Yes, it had two parts. The Horcrux kept a piece of soul safe while the memory did whatever memories are capable of doing. Probably just showing people things, like the scene with Hagrid and Aragog. (Harry relates that to a Pensieve, doesn't he?) But when you combine this sort of tape-recording memory with a piece of soul, even though by itself a piece of soul can't do much, it interacts with the memory and gives it a mind of its own.




haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 11:44 am (#28 of 61)

I'm guessing that was why Voldy was so upset that the diary was destroyed.

It wasn't just a Horcrux. There was the opportunity for another Voldy to emerge.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 27, 2006 1:45 pm (#29 of 61)

There was the opportunity for another Voldy to emerge.

I agree, but how? This might be movie contamination, but doesn't the Riddle who comes out of the diary, have more of a ghost-like appearance? I don't think he was a solid person, just a memory. If it was another way to get LV into the world, then what would be the purpose of putting a memory out there, especially one that's only 16? Maybe I'm just thinking too hard.......




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 27, 2006 3:10 pm (#30 of 61)

Maybe, had memory Tom totally became a being if Ginny had died, Vapormort would inhabit his 16 yr old self-Rebirth. Now, I’m thinking too hard.

Now that Dobby is free, Harry could probably learn a lot if he would just ask questions.




Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 3:28 pm (#31 of 61)

The book does say he grows more solid as Ginny weakens, so I think it was only a matter of time before he transitioned from memory to life. IMO a new sixteen-year-old Voldemort at large would be bad enough, but can you imagine what would have happened if he'd teamed up with his Vapormort self?

Come to think of it, his Vapormort self could probably inhabit his sixteen-year-old body much more easily than Quirrell or an animal.




haymoni - Jun 28, 2006 5:04 am (#32 of 61)

Or Vapormort may have been willing to STAY Vapormort and just hang out helping Tom Riddle along without having to go through experiments and such.




Weeny Owl - Jun 28, 2006 7:29 am (#33 of 61)
Edited Jun 28, 2006 8:30 am

I thought the main purpose Lucius had was to get Dumbledore out of Hogwarts and the secondary purpose being ridding the school of what Lucius thinks of as undesirables.

I believe that the original intent was for Lucius to find a way to get the diary to Harry, and that the original goal was to discredit The Boy Who Lived, and that was the plot Dobby overheard.

Instead, Lucius finds an opportunity not only to get the diary to Hogwarts but also to discredit Arthur and cause him problems. It would still achieve the goal of ridding Hogwarts of Dumbledore and possibly getting rid of Muggle-borns at the same time, but the bonus was revenge on Arthur by using Ginny.

Even Dumbledore leaves Harry to deal with the Basilisk on his own - though of course he does send Fawkes to help.

I was under the impression that it wasn't Dumbledore who sent Fawkes but that Fawkes chose to go on his own. Dumbledore said something about Harry's loyalty and how that was the only thing that could have called Fawkes to Harry.

First he made the memory so someone could let the basilisk out and then later he made it a Horcrux, so it wasn't just a memory anymore.

That's how I see it. The original purpose and the later purpose weren't one and the same.




Choices - Jun 28, 2006 9:22 am (#34 of 61)
Edited Jun 28, 2006 10:28 am

Weeny Owl - "I believe that the original intent was for Lucius to find a way to get the diary to Harry, and that the original goal was to discredit The Boy Who Lived, and that was the plot Dobby overheard."

I believe the original purpose of the diary was to be a way to open the COS again and to be a Horcrux. Voldemort gives the diary to Lucius (who doesn't know about the Horcrux part) who hangs on to it after Voldemort disappears. Angry at Arthur Weasley for the raids on his house, Lucius devises a scheme to give the diary to Ginny, who will take the diary to Hogwarts, open the COS and the resulting publicity about that will cause Arthur to be discredited and embarrassed. Lucius can fulfill two purposes with the diary - one for Voldemort (open the COS again) and one for himself (discredit Arthur). When Tom Riddle confronts Harry in the COS, he tells him his original intent was to find someone to open the COS so that S. Slytherin's noble work could be continued. Then.... "Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been----you." It was only after Ginny told Tom about Harry and what had happened between Harry and Voldemort when Harry was a baby, that Tom Riddle became interested more in Harry than in the COS and killing Mudbloods. I don't believe Lucius knew about this as it happened after the diary was out of his hands, so I don't think Dobby could have known about Tom Riddle's new focus on Harry. I think Dobby only heard about the plot to open the COS and possibly about Lucius' anger over the raids on his house.




zelmia - Jun 28, 2006 1:36 pm (#35 of 61)

Actually, Madame Pomfrey, we had talked about that on the old Thread. We had suggested that the Diary was actually created specifically to ensure Voldemort's immortality in that he could quite literally become his own heir. Whether he chose to use the released Diary Tom for a new body, or simply to become Vapormort's protÈgÈ. Of course we didn't know then about Horcruxes.

But if Diary Tom is any example, based on Dumbledore's remark ("A memory beginning to think and act for itself...") it seems the Horcruxes must retain some element of the personality of the individual as well - at least at the time that particular Horcrux was created.

I am curious as to the function of (in this case) Ginny's soul. Diary Tom was able to feed and grow stronger through Ginny. If another soul in its entirety is absorbed into the Horcrux as well, wouldn't there be some sort of... battle for domination?

Would Ginny's soul have been trapped in the Diary in place of Tom?

Or would Ginny's soul have become completely absorbed into Tom's? Hm.... very confusing, these Horcrux... Thingys....
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Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0 Empty Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0 (posts #36 to #61)

Post  Potteraholic on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:42 pm

Magic Words - Jun 28, 2006 2:06 pm (#36 of 61)

it seems the Horcruxes must retain some element of the personality of the individual as well - at least at the time that particular Horcrux was created.

It could also be that the memory retains all this, but it's the Horcrux element that allows the memory to extrapolate into new situation.




Weeny Owl - Jun 28, 2006 9:26 pm (#37 of 61)
Edited Jun 28, 2006 10:28 pm

I believe the original purpose of the diary was to be a way to open the COS again and to be a Horcrux.

I should have said that the original purpose of Lucius using the diary was what I said above. I didn't mean Voldemort, but rather what Malfoy's motives were.

I don't think Tom Riddle had a focus on Harry, but that Lucius Malfoy did, and that was why Dobby got involved. Dobby heard something or saw something regarding Lucius and his plotting, but Tom Riddle wasn't involved in it, just Lucius.

Everything I said above was just for whatever reasoning Malfoy had and what goals he hoped to accomplish, and the main one I still believe was getting rid of Dumbledore. I feel that was his main focus primarily because he was so thrilled at being the one to tell Dumbledore he had been suspended. The thing with Arthur was just icing on the cake.




smurf - Jun 29, 2006 1:10 am (#38 of 61)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 2:11 am

Magic words - I think that if Diary Tom had absorbed all of Ginny's soul she would have died because her "essence" (her soul) would have been used up by Tom. I know he already had a soul piece of his own in the diary/horcrux but I think he needed an extra soul to regenerate himself.

I think this horcrux is quite unique because it is accompanied by a memory. I don't think a horcrux on its own can simply "wake up" and become a living being, but rather the horcrux-maker must find it and absorb the soul piece within it (this is of course just my interpretation of the text). I believe that the memory served as a channel for the soul piece to act through and that it was not normal horcrux activity.

Is there a general Horcrux thread? - Never mind found it Smile




TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 3:02 am (#39 of 61)

If another soul in its entirety is absorbed into the Horcrux as well, wouldn't there be some sort of... battle for domination?

or... if a horcrux is stored in a whole soul...? LOL




Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2006 10:40 am (#40 of 61)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 1:02 pm

A thought occurred concerning the Horcruxes that have been destroyed. It appears given the condition of Dumbledore's hand that the Horcrux within the ring was harder to destroy than the Horcrux contained within the pages of the diary. Could this indicate that as Voldemort's power and knowledge of the dark arts grew that the complexity of the spells and enchantments protecting the Horcruxes also increased. The diary was the simplest to destroy because Voldemort had not perfected the arts necessary to safeguard the items that he eventually chose to become Horcruxes.

I edited the post to correct some mistakes in grammar.




zelmia - Jun 29, 2006 11:54 am (#41 of 61)

That seems a very reasonable assumption Nathan.




Soul Search - Jun 29, 2006 1:06 pm (#42 of 61)

I think it more likely that placing dark protections on the Diary would have made it less useful.

We know there are instruments that reveal dark magic and Dumbledore could, somehow, sense the magic in the cave. Dark magic on the diary could have been detected, causing the Diary to be destroyed.

Brings up the question, can a horcrux be detected?




Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2006 2:21 am (#43 of 61)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 3:24 am

This thread brings up a lot of interesting questions, and I had many different thoughts on the topics presented - I only hope I can remember all of them now Smile So:

What is the "plot" and what does Dobby know about it?

First of all - I do believe it was the obvious option - Lucius wants to open the COS, thus achieving: 1) DD gone from Hogwarts 2) Muggle-borns killed 3) Arthur gets discredited. I think the original plan was 1+2, and giving the diary to Ginny was just convenient.

It doesn't really explain why Dobby chose to go to Harry, but a lot of good explanations to that were already suggested on this thread.

But I had another thought - what if the original plan was not only giving the diary to Harry, but telling the Diary Tom to go after Harry? What if Lucius actually wrote in the Diary, and told Tom that his future self was banished by some 1-year-old kid, and would he please be so nice and get rid of him? As it is, we only know that Tom was after Harry "for many months now", and it doesn't necessarily mean that he changed his goal only after Ginny told him about Harry.

Granted, Riddle does say : "Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry. Your whole fascinating history." But that doesn't really contradict anything - Lucius could have told him the same history before Ginny did. That said, I'm not sure I believe this is what happened. But it can give a very good explanation of why Dobby was so anxious to protect Harry's life - he knew Harry was in serious danger from the Diary. That also explains why he went to Harry, and not to Dumbledore - Harry is the main target of the attack (while Muggle-borns are just a bonus).

Diary Tom - a memory, a horcrux, or both?

I really enjoyed the discussion about it, the suggested ideas have a lot of merit.

Personally, I think that the 16-year-old-memory and the horcrux were created at the same time. After opening the COS and framing Hagrid, Tom kills his father's family during the summer and frames Morfin (A pattern, anyone?). He then makes the diary a horcrux, and puts his memories into it, just like a pensieve. It really requires a deep knowledge of magic (especially Dark, but not only), which I'm sure Tom had at that point. But apart from his knowledge, and his first horcrux, he also now has the Ring! At that point, he starts thinking about multiple Horcruxes, and he wonders whether it could be done. So next year, he makes sure to ask Slughorn about it, receiving a positive answer.

That fits in with quite a few facts from the books. It also goes well with what Nathan said in post #40 - The Ring seems much more protected than the Diary - because it was a later horcrux.

What would've happened if the Diary Tom stayed out there?

I remember there were many debates about that questions long before HBP, and JKR said this on her site:

In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?

I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.

I don't really have anything to say about it, just thought it'd be interesting to point that out.

Phew, that's all I wanted to say Smile




Madam Pince - Jul 1, 2006 8:35 am (#44 of 61)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 9:36 am

Excellent theories, everyone, about Diary Tom and Horcruxes/Memories! I have to say that this whole topic makes my head hurt -- I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out and couldn't, so I decided to just wait until JKR tells us! It has so many conflicting issues, it seems. In particular I can't figure out the whole "if Ginny died and Diary Tom 'solidified' then what would that accomplish?" Most confusing....

I do tend to think that Riddle created the Diary and the Memory originally with the purpose of returning someday to open the CoS and release the basilisk. Then later decided to make the Diary a Horcrux. Whoever said that the Horcrux and the Memory then intermingled to form a new and different critter is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking.

Regarding Dobby, I don't think Dobby knew exactly what was going to happen with the Diary. He had heard his master discussing some "plot" which involved the diary and which would create danger at Hogwarts, and Dobby was just trying to keep Harry out of the way of any danger whatsoever. He went to Harry because he loves Harry and owes a debt to Harry -- he doesn't have those particular feelings for Dumbledore, so he wouldn't go to Dumbledore. I don't think Dobby had quite made the transition from "mindless" house-elf to "somewhat independent, thinking" house-elf yet -- he was just in the process, and he knew "something bad" was happening, and he felt the duty to try to keep Harry safe. The only way he knew to do this was to keep Harry away from Hogwarts, where he knew the danger lay. He didn't necessarily have to believe that Harry was targeted in particular.

It's sort of like staying out of a "bad" neighborhood after dark -- you don't know that you in particular will be a target, but it's just a good idea in general to be cautious. That's what I see Dobby trying to accomplish. He's not out to save the school from evil, just to protect Harry.




zelmia - Jul 10, 2006 11:56 am (#45 of 61)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 1:12 pm

Going back to "the Plot" for a moment. Why does Lucius want Dumbledore gone from Hogwarts so badly, apart from the obvious? Could it be that this was only the first leg of a more advanced "plot" such as was finally realised in HBP?

In other words, with Dumbledore gone, there would be a perfect opportunity for those closet Voldemort supporters to sidle in and put their own Head in Dumbledore's chair.

"What about you, sir?" Draco says to Snape. Perhaps Snape was indeed short-listed to take over the Headmaster post, or perhaps it was Lucius himself.

Regardless, I think it was likely that the original Plot had several components to it. Dumbledore being removed was perhaps only the first stage. But it makes me wonder who else may have been involved. Who was Lucius talking to that Dobby overheard?




Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 7:48 pm (#46 of 61)

Interesting theory, zelmia. It does make sense. Actually, though, it might not even have had to be Lucius or Snape who took over headship. Lucius certainly had Fudge and Umbridge pretty well fooled. I think he could have pulled Umbridge's strings well enough from where he was that she would have been a "useful" Head. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire




Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 6:25 am (#47 of 61)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 7:28 am

Good thought, zelmia.

I don't think Lucius wanted the headmaster job; he works best behind the scenes and wouldn't want to be stuck far away from the ministry and all the action.

Remembering that his goal in placing the diary with Ginny was to discredit Arthur Weasley, I think it more likely he thought Dumbledore stood the best chance of thwarting his goal or discovering the perpetrator, so sought to eliminate him.

Since Lucius thought Dumbledore "was the worst headmaster Hogwarts has ever had," eliminating him would have served a secondary purpose of installing a headmaster that wasn't so fond of Mudbloods.

Good planning, when you think of it. Almost worked. Would have, were it not for Dobby ... and Harry.




geauxtigers - Jul 11, 2006 5:01 pm (#48 of 61)

I agree with Soul Search here about his best chance to open the Chamber of Secrets was to get DD out. He can scope things out no one at that school, he knows what’s going on. I like your theory there Zelmia, I think that’s very possible... I have to think on this a little, but I like it...




virginiaelizabeth - Jul 13, 2006 1:31 pm (#49 of 61)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 2:32 pm

I'm rereading CoS right now and I came across this in ch. 17. It seems really important but I'm not quite sure what to make of it and I'm hoping y'all can help me out here.

"If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted....I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful that little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." (310)

So did Riddle require another's soul to come out of the diary? What does he mean by growing stronger off her fears and secrets? By pouring his soul back into Ginny, is that what’s possessing her or is it something else? Just found it interesting and thought I'd mention it to see what everyone else thinks.




Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 1:56 pm (#50 of 61)

I think two things might have happened here:

First of all, Riddle's soul is incomplete - and its "main" bit is not in the diary - so he needs a soul that has this "main" bit in order to become stronger.

But what he really needs is someone that could be a carrier of his own bit of soul - that is what gave Ginny Tom's powers (like Parseltongue...). This carrier has to be weak enough to accept the possessing soul - and Ginny, who probably was consumed with emotions at the times of writing on the diary, was just that.

I didn't really say anything new, did I? Well, that's the sign to go to bed Smile




zelmia - Jul 13, 2006 2:06 pm (#51 of 61)

I always interpreted that particular phrasing "... pour a bit of my own soul back into [Ginny]..." as Riddle's way of saying he had possessed Ginny. Sounds a lot more mysterious when he puts it that way.




virginiaelizabeth - Jul 13, 2006 2:46 pm (#52 of 61)

That sounds good to me Miss Black. I think zelmia's right as well, it sounds so mysterious and intriguing that it caught my eye. Thanks for the ideas!




Majikthise - Jul 19, 2006 1:30 pm (#53 of 61)

From Anna L. Black, "+ Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0" #43, 30 Jun 2006 3:21 am

Personally, I think that the 16-year-old-memory and the horcrux were created at the same time. After opening the COS and framing Hagrid, Tom kills his father's family during the summer and frames Morfin (A pattern, anyone?). He then makes the diary a horcrux, and puts his memories into it, just like a pensieve. It really requires a deep knowledge of magic (especially Dark, but not only), which I'm sure Tom had at that point. But apart from his knowledge, and his first horcrux, he also now has the Ring! At that point, he starts thinking about multiple Horcruxes, and he wonders whether it could be done. So next year, he makes sure to ask Slughorn about it, receiving a positive answer.

Interesting hypothesis. Supporting evidence:

In HBP23, Dumbledore says that "what particularly wanted from Horace was an opinion on what would happen to the wizard who created more than one Horcrux ... No book would have given him that information." This suggests that Riddle already knew the other information.

In HBP23, Dumbledore refers to the diary as Riddle's first Horcrux ("loss of his first"). I don't know how Dumbledore would know this except by associating the soul fragment with the memory of the 16-year-old Riddle.

Evidence against:

In HBP23, Slughorn doesn't really answer Riddle's question about making multiple Horcruxes; his response is one of shock at the idea. Yet Riddle's face is "full of that same wild happiness it had worn when he had first found out that he was a wizard". It seems that Riddle has discovered something, and I don't see what that could be except that a Horcrux contains a soul fragment, that the soul fragment is created by committing murder, or that a Horcrux prevents death.

Other arguments against:

Given Riddle's reputed fear of death, it seems strange that he would make his first Horcrux the disposable one, particularly if he wasn't sure he could make more.

If Riddle's knowledge of magic in general and the Dark Arts in particular was so deep while he was at Hogwarts that he would naturally know how to make a Horcrux, why did it take him 25 years to start his rebellion?

By the way, although it's not critical to the hypothesis that Riddle knew how to make a Horcrux when he questioned Slughorn, an exact reading of HBP17 indicates that Riddle killed his father's family before he opened the Chamber of Secrets, not after. From HBP17, Riddle killed his father's family in "the summer of his sixteenth year" (i.e., when he was 15). This passage may well be misworded, but I don't think we can simply assume that (we can soon check the paperback for a correction). Passages in CS13 and CS17 indicate that Riddle turned 16 in the school year he opened the Chamber of Secrets; most significant is a reference in CS13 to Riddle's prefect's badge.




zelmia - Jul 19, 2006 1:37 pm (#54 of 61)
Edited Jul 19, 2006 2:38 pm

Interesting points, Majik and well researched. Actually, Riddle himself tells Harry that he had found out about his heritage (i.e. heir of Slytherin) in CS. So he may very well have already killed his father and grandparents before opening the Chamber.




Detail Seeker - Jul 23, 2006 12:43 pm (#55 of 61)

"...why did it take him 25 years to start his rebellion?2 Majikthise

The ability to make a Horcrux itself is not a basis for a revolution. He had - at first - to improve his knowledge about Dark Arts.

Afterwards, he had to gather followers - enough followers to think, he could be able to start and win a war. These followers had to be set up to be ready to act. This takes time. A revolution can only be successful, if the situation has evolved that far, that the adherers to the old standard are not really willing to defend this standard anymore, until the Pettigrews in the community to be revolutionized are ripe to switch sides, so to say.

20 - 25 years is a typical incubation time for revolutionary thoughts to get a broader base in a larger or - as here with the wizarding world - dispersed community.




Die Zimtzicke - Jul 31, 2006 7:43 pm (#56 of 61)

I'm still terribly confused by the fact that 16-year-old Riddle almost escaped, when the older Riddle still existed in some form. Would there have been two of them when Voldemort managed to get his body back or would the spirit Voldemort gone back into the younger body so that a new body would no longer have been needed?

Would they have been able to combine, one piece of soul joining with another? Or would they have been two different entities entirely and able to disagree on some points? It's weird to think of one meeting up with the other, like some kind of Doctor Who reunion episode.




Choices - Aug 1, 2006 9:05 am (#57 of 61)

Didn't JKR say that had memory Tom lived (killing Ginny) that Voldemort would have simply been stronger?




Mattew Bates - Aug 1, 2006 9:57 am (#58 of 61)
Edited Aug 1, 2006 10:58 am

The quote is from JKR's FAQ page.

Section: F.A.Q.

In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?

I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.

It is one of the older questions, answered before HBP came out, but I still think she implies that more information pertaining to this will arise in book 7.




zelmia - Aug 21, 2006 11:08 am (#59 of 61)

There is a certain amount of information in JKR's response. For one thing, her response implies that Voldemort, in his current "split-souled" state, is weak (...[Diary Riddle's emergence] would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.). I have long wondered what exactly she means, particularly in light of Dumbledore's having explained what Horcruxes are.

Perhaps there is some way Harry can take advantage of Voldemort's current state of being in order to buy time until he's located all of the other Horcruxes.




Choices - Aug 21, 2006 5:28 pm (#60 of 61)

Could she have meant the pre-rebirthed Voldemort? In COS he was in the "ugly baby" state and Tom Riddle could have strengthened him then, but after his rebirth in GOF he regained his strength. Trelawney predicted in POA that he would come back more powerful than ever and in GOF he does.




zelmia - Aug 21, 2006 7:49 pm (#61 of 61)
Edited Aug 21, 2006 9:07 pm

Ah, yes, Choices. You're right, as usual. Thanks for reminding me. I'll have to think about this some more then.
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