CoS Quidditch and Book 7 - related ? ?

CoS Quidditch and Book 7 - related ? ?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

vball man - Aug 12, 2006 4:28 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 28, 2006 12:38 am
Long ago, I think there was a thread which compared quidditch to the overall story.

The scoring system makes Harry's contribution to the game almost always the whole game. The other players will score 50 or maybe 100 points, but the game is won or lost based disproportionately on Harry's catching the snitch.

Also, in the Wizarding World many wizards will do their part in fighting the death eaters, but the victory will be based on Harry's defeat of Voldemort.

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I was reading CoS today and some things struck me about the quidditch game. Could the game with the rogue bludger, in which Harry's arm is broken, be a picture of the whole struggle between Voldemort and Harry?

- The Rogue Bludger - It goes after Harry specifically. Then there is a "time out." Harry comes to understand that he needs to deal with the bludger himself - without help. Then, when play resumes, it goes after Harry again. The rogue bludger represents Voldemort.

- Harry's role as seeker - Harry will spend the next year seeking horcruxes.

- Oliver Wood's pre-match pep talk

"Slytherin has better brooms than us," he began. "No point denying it. But we've got better people on our brooms. We've trained harder than they have, we've been flying in all weathers -" ("Too true," muttered George Weasley. "I haven't been properly dry since August") "- and we're going to make them rue the day they let that little bit of slime, Malfoy, buy his way onto their team."

Chest heaving with emotion, Wood turned to Harry.

"It'll be down to you, Harry, to show them that a Seeker has to have something more than a rich father. Get to that Snitch before Malfoy or die trying, Harry, because we've got to win today, we've got to."

Get that last horcrux or die trying, Harry, or die trying. We've got to win, we've got to.

- Harry get's his arm broken in the process of the game. I don't know what this could represent. Ideas are some physical damage to Harry in Book 7, or Dumbledore's arm (though I don't know why it would pertain to Dumbledore).

- Harry does catch the snitch, but he does not finish off the bludger. Fred and George do. Perhaps Harry will not be the one to kill off Voldemort. Snape perhaps?

journeymom - Aug 12, 2006 4:16 pm (#1 of 38)
I like the analogy.

" Harry get's his arm broken in the process of the game. I don't know what this could represent. Ideas are some physical damage to Harry in Book 7, or Dumbledore's arm (though I don't know why it would pertain to Dumbledore). "

Throughout the series while Harry is busy doing normal school boy stuff like go to classes, etc, Dumbledore has been "playing the game".

There's a chess analogy, too. In HBP Dd sacrificed himself to advance Harry (and possibly Snape, the pawn quietly making his way to the other side), just like Ron did in PS.

Harry will be the only one to do in Voldemort. Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Hagrid, Neville, Snape and Pettigrew will all play a part in weakening Voldemort, I think.

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Finn BV - Aug 12, 2006 5:48 pm (#2 of 38)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I think you could really regeneralize "CoS Quidditch" back to every book Quidditch, or a Slytherin-Gryffindor Quidditch match.

After all, Harry is always Seeker and Wood always gives the same speeches. It's the Rogue Bludger that goes after Harry that makes this game unique.

But the Slytherins go after Harry, in a general sense. The Slytherins in the stands will boo him. And, the first Quidditch match in PS has Quirrell, a Death Eater no less, impeding Harry.

I like the analogy about the time out and Harry finding out he needs to go on alone, but other than that, it seems that this Harry's role in Book 7 could be related to a handful of matches.

The interesting thing to note, however, is that JKR has said that there will be no Quidditch matches written in-depth in Book 7, suggesting that there will be no Quidditch, either at all or when Harry is present. Perhaps the lack of Quidditch is made up by the comparison to the entire plotline of Book 7 equalling Quidditch?

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Solitaire - Aug 13, 2006 12:07 am (#3 of 38)
Could Harry's broken arm equal a broken wand? What if he breaks his wand in book 7? He might have to use his mother's wand ... or his dad's. Just a wild thought ... I'm curious about the Potters' wands, because Jo has mentioned that it will be important that Lily's wand was good for charm work.

Solitaire

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painting sheila - Aug 17, 2006 11:36 pm (#4 of 38)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Do we know where Lilly's and James' wands are?

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Choices - Aug 18, 2006 11:12 am (#5 of 38)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That information has not been revealed. Hopefully we will find out in book 7. So far, not even a hint as to what happened to their wands.

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Madam Pince - Aug 19, 2006 9:46 pm (#6 of 38)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Except for the squeaking stair on the Dursley's staircase... ***cue sinister music...***

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Solitaire - Aug 19, 2006 11:29 pm (#7 of 38)
1. Pet could have retrieved them from GH sometime after the murders. I don't know when, but it assumes she was there at some point.
2. Peter (or whoever accompanied Voldy to GH) could have taken them and hidden them away somewhere. Those wands the escaped DEs have used came from somewhere. Surely their own were snapped when they were sent to Azkaban.
3. Hagrid could have retrieved them and given them to DD for safekeeping.
4. Sirius could have taken them and they could be with his motorbike, wherever it is.
5. Dumbledore could have taken them, and they could be somewhere at Hogwarts--or he could have given them to Pet--to be given to Harry when he comes of age (I favor this one).
6. Could they have been buried with James and Lily?

Just a few suggestions ...

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Aug 23, 2006 2:22 pm (#8 of 38)
Snape, the pawn quietly making his way to the other side

Brilliant, Journeymom.

Just throwing out another idea: CoS quidditch as it relates to book 6. Harry as Seeker would represent Dumbledore searching for Horcruxes, hence the arm thing, and hence the rogue bludger trying wildly to take him out all game.

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Ann - Aug 24, 2006 10:54 am (#9 of 38)
Solitaire, I think we know what happened to those wands, and they're not going to be of much use to Harry. In HBP, the chapter "After the Burial," p. 465 British edition, Slughorn sings a song about Odo the hero:

And Odo the hero, they bore him back home
To the place that he'd known as a lad,
They laid him to rest with his hat inside out
And his wand snapped in two, which was sad.

I can think of no other reason she'd have put that particular verse in except to give us the anthropological information on wizarding burial tradition. (Now if I could only work out why she gave us all the anthropological information in OotP on giant customs and social organization....)

Sorry, nothing on Quidditch here!

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 30, 2006 11:56 am (#10 of 38)
If Quidditch mattered a lot to the plot, I don't think Jo would have let them cut the Quidditch scenes out of the OotP film, and they have been cut.

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Choices - Aug 30, 2006 12:02 pm (#11 of 38)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It's not that Quidditch was important to the plot necessarily, it's that the Quidditch game itself was symbolic of the overall plot....Harry being a "seeker", seeking "gold", etc.

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Finn BV - Aug 30, 2006 3:05 pm (#12 of 38)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
And also, as I explained in my post on the OoP movie thread (Finn BV, "# 5th movie: HP & the Order of the Phoenix discussion" #1858, 30 Aug 2006 2:36 pm), Quidditch serves as a device to introduce plot elements (rogue bludger/Dobby, Dementor/Whomping Willow/new broom, QWC terrorism, Harry, F&G banned from it -- thus fuelling anger with Umbridge, etc.). Also, can you imagine writing a believable (well… if you believe in magic) boarding school story where they exclude sports? I think she wanted a wizard sport, just for the sake of it, too.

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haymoni - Sep 8, 2006 11:17 am (#13 of 38)
I didn't know where else to ask this, but why aren't there extra players/subs on a Quidditch team?

If your Seeker gets injured, does one of the Chasers or Beaters have to substitute for them?

Or are there actually backup players? Certainly folks were allowed to try out for vacant spots, but what happens in the middle of a match?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 8, 2006 11:59 am (#14 of 38)
Haymoni, I think there are resevere players.

I believe Ginny continued to act as reserve Seeker in HBP because, she had been a successful replacement for Harry in OotP after he was banned.

Andrew Kirke and Jack Sloper served as subsititute (reservist) beaters for Fred and George after they were banned as well.

Cormac McLaggen served as a reserve Keeper in Ron's absence after his poisoning.

Dean Thomas substituted for both Katie Bell while she was recovering, and he Ginny as Chaser after she becaming acting seeker during the final match/

In terms of who acted as the team Captain on the Quidditch Pitch in Harry's absence. I think that responsibility would have naturally fallen to Katie Bell as the most experienced and senior most member of the team.

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haymoni - Sep 8, 2006 12:13 pm (#15 of 38)
Do they practice with the team?

Why wouldn't Harry tell Cormac that he was the reserve Keeper after he lost the position to Ron?

It just seems odd that we don't see players coming in during the game as folks get injured.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 8, 2006 12:47 pm (#16 of 38)
Haymoni, I tend to think that McLaggen's actions after the trials dissuaded Harry from officially designating him as the reserve Keeper at that time.

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Choices - Sep 8, 2006 12:52 pm (#17 of 38)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We have seen people sub for players when they had advance notice, but we have never seen a player injured in a game and then someone step up to sub for them - at least I don't recall any instances.

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 12, 2006 7:49 am (#18 of 38)
Yes, that's true. If someone gets hurt, they either postpone the game, like they did when Draco said his arm was hurt, or try out new people for that spot. There are no reservists that we know of in canon.

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Soul Search - Sep 12, 2006 9:27 am (#19 of 38)
I do recall the announcer at a match refering to a player as "only a reserve last year."

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2006 9:28 am (#20 of 38)
Die Zimtzicke, there is canon for the existence of reservists. We know of one reserve player from canon specifically from PS chapter eleven.

Lee Jordan in his commentary on the match asserts the following: Alicia Spinnet, a good find of Oliver Wood's, last year only a reserve. (PS Large Print Edition page 257)

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haymoni - Sep 12, 2006 9:33 am (#21 of 38)
I just thought it was strange that it was such a dangerous game but you didn't have players sitting on the bench.

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Choices - Sep 12, 2006 9:41 am (#22 of 38)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In the Quidditch World Cup when the Irish seeker hit the ground twice, the Mediwizards just revived him and put him back into the game. They did not seem to have backup players.

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haymoni - Sep 12, 2006 10:00 am (#23 of 38)
Oh yeah!

That magic thing again!

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Choices - Sep 12, 2006 10:03 am (#24 of 38)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
LOL Isn't it amazing how often magic happens in books about magic? LOL

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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 15, 2006 9:05 pm (#25 of 38)
I always thought Alica was perhaps like Jack Sloper, someone they put in when the regular person had to leave the team for awhile for some reason. That's not the same way I normally see a reserve, but then the whole thing is not clear anyway.

The whole thing is not consistent, either, which I think may well relate to the fact that Jo possibly got tired of thinking about Quidditch. She did say that she had written her last Quidditch game and that it was getting hard to keep making the games interesting, or fresh, or something like that. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it was in regard to why she had Luna commentate.

I really dislike Quidditch, and if she's written her last game, it's obviously not important to the main plot, so maybe she did not give it the detailed attention that she did other things.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 5, 2006 9:35 pm (#26 of 38)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Don't forget that Katie Bell was a reserve in her first year. I believe it is in SS that they she says she was a reserve her previous year.

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juliebug - Oct 6, 2006 6:16 am (#27 of 38)
I was just reading Quidditch through the Ages. In the section titled "Rules," number 5 states, "In the case of injury, no substitution of players will take place. The team will play on without the injured player." There is no mention of reservists in the book, but it stands to reason that alternates can be put into the game if something keeps a quidditch player off the pitch before a game.

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haymoni - Oct 6, 2006 7:34 am (#28 of 38)
Thanks, juliebug - I always wondered about that.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 6, 2006 6:34 pm (#29 of 38)
So, in the books the words altenate and reservist are interchangeable? Or are they different? I'm confused.

Of course that IS my usual state.

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juliebug - Oct 6, 2006 10:04 pm (#30 of 38)
There is no mention of reservists or alternates in Quidditch through the Ages. I added my own speculation that in the event a player becomes injured or for some other reason is unable to play before the game (illness, family emergency, spliching related trauma, ect) that a reservist would probably be permissible. There is no rule in the book addressing that in the book. Rule 5 states only that if a player is injured DURING the game that no substitutions can be made.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 8, 2006 4:44 pm (#31 of 38)
But in the part of GoF about the World Cup, isn't there a section where someone talks about a game that went on for days and they kept brining in substitutes so that the players could get some sleep?

What would you call that?

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juliebug - Oct 8, 2006 5:23 pm (#32 of 38)
Sounds like rule-breaking to me.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 9, 2006 8:29 am (#33 of 38)
Or sloppy writing.

I don't think Quidditch is Jo's favorite plot point, but maybe that's just my impression.

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juliebug - Oct 9, 2006 8:43 am (#34 of 38)
I just re-read Quidditch through the Ages. There is no mention of reservist players anywhere in the book, but there is a small loop hole in the substitutions rules. The rule states, "In case of injury no substitutions will be made..." for the full quote, see post number 27 (highlighting the word injury is not original to the text.) The book never says that substitutes can't be used for reasons other than injury during game play. It could be argued that rule 5 implies no substitutions are ever allowed and that the ones mentioned in GoF are contradictory, but I suppose that is up to the individual reader to decide.

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haymoni - Oct 9, 2006 9:22 am (#35 of 38)
It's possible that 5 players played while 2 slept, so you had replacements coming in, but you didn't have a full team.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 9, 2006 8:31 pm (#36 of 38)
If there is Qudditch in Book Seven it is likely to be off screen and the likelihood is that the Captain will either be Ron or Ginny. Although I think Ginny is the more logical candidate because

In HBP the selection of Team Captain did not follow strict seniority as it had in OotP because, as the only seventh year Remain the captaincy should have passed to Katie Bell, but extenuating circumstances made Harry the naturl choice for the position.

Assuming Ron and Hermione are assisting Harry then it seems likely that the captaincy will devolve to Ginny.

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Die Zimtzicke - Oct 10, 2006 9:57 am (#37 of 38)
I hope Ron does get it. Then at least some part of his Mirror of Erised wish will have come true.

But I think there will be no Quidditch. We don't even know if the school will reopen for sure, much less if enough kids will return to field teams. Jo did say she had written her last Quiddtich match. I know it could still be off screen, but I have a suspicion it just won't happen. The houses have to start reuniting, if we are finally going to get that unity that got dropped after OotP, and as Hemrione pointed out, it causes bad feelings.

Of course that may just be wishful thinking on my part, as Quidditch bores me to tears.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 29, 2006 11:12 am (#38 of 38)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Ron as quidditch captain, this will be his chance to shine and to really make a difference. He will be able to show his leadership capacity and prove himself worthy of both Harry and Hermione.

If indeed it is time for the houses to unite, what a leader it would take to captain the team that unites the four houses and still competes.

The controversy of the school re-opening having been resolved with much difficulty, Ron captains Gryffindor guiding them through the difficult task of good athletic sport and good sportsmanship. But yes all of this most likely all off screen.

A worthy supporter of Harry in his endeavor and a match to clever Hermione.