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The Photograph Moody Showed Harry
Elanor Sun May 29, 2011 1:43 am
The Photograph Moody Showed Harry
Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 19, 2004 3:43 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 3:03 pm
The photograph Moodly showed Harry in OOTP with all the members......what time was it taken? Was this all the people in the Order? Who's taking the picture? Why aren't DD or McGonagall in the picture? This thread is to discuss these questions and more about the photograph.
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 19, 2004 3:43 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 3:03 pm
The photograph Moodly showed Harry in OOTP with all the members......what time was it taken? Was this all the people in the Order? Who's taking the picture? Why aren't DD or McGonagall in the picture? This thread is to discuss these questions and more about the photograph.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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The Photograph Moody Showed Harry (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sun May 29, 2011 1:44 am
Aud Duck - Oct 19, 2004 3:05 pm (#1 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I would guess that the people in the picture are the people that happened to be at headquarters when it was taken, and that it does not include nearly all of the Order members. It would probably have been impossible to gather them all together in one place. Judging by the fact that so many of the people in the photograph are dead, it was probably taken fairly early in the war, before the Death Eaters has started methodically killing off Order members. Personally, I have to wonder why this was taken. Sure, it would not include people that were spying on the Death Eaters, but it still doesn't seem like a good idea to create something that would, if found, tell the Death Eaters whom to kill.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 19, 2004 3:29 pm (#2 of 144)
Just to be sure that everyone's on the same page--literally and figuratively--the scene occurs in OoP, ch. 9 ("The Woes of Mrs. Weasley"), pgs. 173-175, US hardcover.
I, of course, just re-read it, and was struck by how upset, almost resentful, Harry seemed to have been shown it. In fact, he thinks to himself, "Well, Moody might find that interesting...he, Harry, found it disturbing...."
It was a shock to Harry to see his parents pictures again, everyone surrounding them happily waving and kidding around, "...not knowing that they were doomed...."
He tries to rationalize his feelings, already feeling guilty for not thinking that Moody had given him a big treat, "...but to have them sprung on him like that, when he was least expecting it...No one would like that, he thought angrily...."
Poor Harry--he's angry at Moody for this, but he's really angry at himself, I think. The last few weeks, months, even more, Harry has been living a miserable "it's all about me" sort of existence. He's probably carting around a large dose of guilt because he hasn't kept Cedric's death foremost in his thoughts, nor has he thought about his parents recently, or at least not enough.
Deep, deep down, I suspect this terribly difficult time for Harry includes some resentment of his parents' involvement in the very group that Moody his so happy to tell him about. You know, if they hadn't been activists in the Order, all would be well now, they'd be a normal family, he'd be a loved son, no scar, no great responsibility to save the world.
This touching scene occurs just afte Harry's been cleared. He's pretty elated. Mixed with that is all the other messy emotions--anger, fear, jealousy (of Ron's badge), and it's just too much at that moment to have to deal with Moody's nostalgia.
I know Jessalynn was probably hoping the first response would be to discuss one of the questions she presented. I apologize for hi-jacking the discussion to go on a riff about the scene itself. So, in an attempt to redeem myself, I will offer an observation that this scene is a clever JKR technique to provide us with a ton of important information. Here's a whole roster of characters, many of whom we'll never meet, some of whom are provided with mini-bios by Moody. I wouldn't be surprised if this very photo comes up again in some way that helps the kids or the DA (or whoever) solve a critical problem.
Ciao. Barb
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Choices - Oct 19, 2004 5:28 pm (#3 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We can probably pin down the time the photograph was taken - James and Lily were a couple, probably married, but before they had Harry. It had to be about the time they left Hogwarts, married and were either expecting or about to be expecting Harry. You timeline experts correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be about 1978 or thereabouts?
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 19, 2004 5:41 pm (#4 of 144)
Yes, I think it would, Choices. And Barb, I don't mind at all.
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JackO - Oct 20, 2004 11:34 am (#5 of 144)
This is one of my favorite short scenes in the book, but the first time I read it I had the same basic feeling towards the photo as Harry. It's cool to hear about new characters and see Harry's parents and their friends together, but when he saw Pettigrew next to Lily and James I got so disgusted and angry. If I could speak to Wormtail face to face I'd have some choice words to say to him.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 20, 2004 4:30 pm (#6 of 144)
The photograph I would put closer to 1978 because, The Prewetts, Dorcas Meadowes, Marlene McKinnon, Benjy Fenwick, Caradoc Dearbon, and Edgar Bones are all present in the photograph. As prominent as the Prewetts, Edgar Bones, and Dorcas Meadowes appear. It seems unlikely that they were all murdered within a time frame of a year because, that would have aroused suspiscion and possibly outrage among the wizarding community.
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Paul Filippelli - Oct 20, 2004 7:52 pm (#7 of 144)
There is no real way to put it on a timeline because every time JKR puts dates in the story they contradict each other: in CoS it says Nearly Headless Nick died in 1492 and it is his 500th Deathday; but in PoA it mentions Friday, Oct. 16, but October 16, 1993 was a Saturday. Another example of a date contradiction is the fact that Sept. 1 in OotP was a Sunday, but Sept. 1, 1995 was a Friday. I do, however, agree that the picture was taken about 2 years before Harry was born.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 20, 2004 8:31 pm (#8 of 144)
Paul, The only reference I could find concerning October 16, 1993 is to the death Lavender Brown's pet rabbit Binky. If you could provide the reference concerning Nick I would be most apprieciative. But, in Chapter 8 of the Chamber of Secrets the date of Nick's execution is given as October 31, 1492. It could be argued that a general timeline could be set because we know the photograph was taken between June 1978 and October 31, 1981.
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zelmia - Oct 20, 2004 10:41 pm (#9 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, I, for one, believe that Arthur was in the Order the first time round - even though he is not in the picture. If real life is any indication, these types of photos (i.e. sports teams, fraternal organisations, family reunions, etc.) NEVER have ALL the members present at the time they are taken. Someone is always missing for one reason or another.
There are many on the Forum who have used this photo pretty much as a full roster for the previous Order members. But we all know that Dumbledore was in the Order the first time and he is not in the photo.
As for who is taking it, that is an interesting question, and I wonder why Moody didn't mention that person by name. Is it possible to set a wizard camera on a timer?
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Madame Librarian - Oct 21, 2004 9:37 am (#10 of 144)
Zelmia, I'd bet any wizard worth his or her salt could charm a timer on a camera. Nevertheless, there are several good reasons members might not be in the photo ranging from on assignment, being photo-averse ("oh, don't bother with that charm Lily. I'll just take the picture myself. I hate the way I look in photos."), on leave, or not wishing to have a photo record of their presence (a spy, double agent), asleep/off duty...and on and on.
The intriguing bit may be just that--who's not in the picture and why? Will the picture become a parallel clue like the circle of DEs in the graveyard at the end of GoF?
Ciao. Barb
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Steve Newton - Oct 21, 2004 9:52 am (#11 of 144)
Librarian
I'll have to check, but, how many OOTP members are mentioned when the picture is described? Certain numbers seem to recur and seem to be important.
I'll try to remember to check tonight.
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Tomoé - Oct 21, 2004 11:01 am (#12 of 144)
Back in business
Zelmia, Dumbledore is in the picture :
'There's me,' said Moody, unnecessarily pointing at himself. The Moody in th picture was unmistakeable, though his hair was slightly less grey and his nose was intact. 'And there's Dumbledore beside me [...]'
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 21, 2004 4:10 pm (#13 of 144)
I think that Jo likes to sneak things in that nobody will notice, and this is something I noticed by luck. Next time she has a chat, someone ask who's missing and see what she answers. If she tells us straight out, no big deal. If she doesn't, I predict this thread will get an additional 50 messages added overnight!
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popkin - Oct 21, 2004 7:53 pm (#14 of 144)
mother
I think it's interesting that Moody and Dumbledore are next to each other. They sit next to each other at the Wizengamot trials, also. It makes me think that Moody is probably one of Dumbledore's closest friends.
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Classicsquid592 - Oct 21, 2004 8:22 pm (#15 of 144)
If that is the case one wonders why Dumbledore took a full year to recognize Crouch.
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 9:28 pm (#16 of 144)
"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Squid, that is one of those questions it's best not to ask. In other words, that has bugged the snot out of me since the book was published.
Marcus.
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therealscabbers - Oct 22, 2004 7:46 am (#17 of 144)
Petra t
because Crouch was very clever, and kept Moody alive to make sure he was able to get information to be able to fool even DD
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wolfgrl - Oct 22, 2004 12:00 pm (#18 of 144)
I have a question, from what we know, does the WW differ between photographs, and portraits? Can one move between photos or just paintings of ones self? Can photos talk like portraits? If they can maybe the photo was taken as a fast way to send info to each other. A copy was made for each person, and they could then send the photo of themself off with info to any other order member. I would gess that DD could put a charm on them to make shure the photo people could only go to other copies of the same photo. Maybe the "missing people" did not need this means of communication for what ever reason.
Edit: I just remembered the chocolate frog card that DD dissapears from, so I answered my own question about the portraits. But they could still be used as a communication device.
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Quidditch Mom - Oct 22, 2004 12:37 pm (#19 of 144)
Hi all. Longtime lurker. I don't get online much, and am still wading through the multitudes of your wonderful posts.
This is a bit off-track, but I've long been puzzled about the original Order. I was glad to discover a thread about them.
My question: Exactly how did the Order operate back then? There were Ministry aurors in the first Order, but I doubt that Lupin (werewolf), Mundungus (thief), and Mrs. Figg (squib) worked for the Ministry. We don't know about James and Lily and many others' occupations.
Was the original Order part of the Ministry? Did the Ministry simply know about and support them as best they could? Or were they a secret vigilante/resistance group outside Ministry control? I have the impression they were an underground group back then, as they were in Book 5. Except, why would there have been a need for secrecy back then? Any canon on this anywhere?
Now that the Ministry has acknowledged Voldemort is indeed back, how might the current Order relate to the Ministry in future books?
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 22, 2004 5:23 pm (#20 of 144)
"Except, why would there have been a need for secrecy back then?"
Same reason there's a need for secrecy now. Granted, it's a different authority... but there was no telling who was under Imperius and who wasn't. Heck, all of the Marauders suspected one of the others of being a spy...
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schoff - Oct 23, 2004 12:04 pm (#21 of 144)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
There is no real way to put it on a timeline because every time JKR puts dates in the story they contradict each other:
Just because JKR didn't correlate them to the real-life calendar doesn't mean we can't find dates. We just find them based on her calendar.
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TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 1:14 pm (#22 of 144)
Bullheaded empiricist
Many authors give exposition in long boring chapters rehashing the previous eight novels.
Jo doesn't succumb to this sort of thing.
The only time I've found her rehashing exposition boring is when she tries to rush through the Quiditch rules. CoS was particularly bad.
The Order photo scene seems very much like her way of giving needed exposition. What it's needed for I have no idea. All the deaths do seem to be a harbinger of an uncertain future.
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Steve Newton - Oct 23, 2004 1:44 pm (#23 of 144)
Librarian
From Chapter 9 of OOTP. The OOTP members mentioned in the photograph and, perhaps, some comments.
Moody, Dumbledore and Diggle on each side of him
Dumbledore, Albus variety
Dedalus Diggle
Marlene McKinnon, another example of alliteration, killed 2 weeks after the picture was taken. "They got her whole family."
Frank and Alice Longbottom
Emmeline Vance, Harry has met her
Lupin
Benjy Fenwick, "copped it," "we only ever found bits of him"
Edgar Bones, brother of Amelia, "they got him and his family too, he was a great wizard." Susan's uncle?
Sturgis Podmore, looks young
Caradoc Dearborn, vanished 6 months after this, body never found
Hagrid
Elphias Dodge, Harry has met (I don't remember this), stupid hat
Gideon Prewett, 5 death eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian, fought like heroes
Aberforth, only time Moody ever met him, strange bloke
Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally
Sirius, short hair
I count 18 named people. The number doesn't mean anything in particular to me since I don't think that JKR follows baseball. (The number needed to play a regulation game, no DH.)
I count 5 killed and one disappeared. I counted Benjy as a deader but you never know since they found about as much of him as they found of Peter and we know how well that went.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 23, 2004 10:36 pm (#24 of 144)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Aberforth, only time Moody ever met him, strange bloke" Rather interesting don't you think? Considering the tone is set for Moody to be one of Dumbledore's oldest friends, and yet has only met his brother once? Ok, goat spells aside, what gives here?
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 9:52 am (#25 of 144)
Librarian
Reading the list over I also notice that several families were wiped out. The McKinnons, the Bones' (obviously they are not counting nieces and such), maybe the Prewetts. Purebloods?
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Ann - Oct 24, 2004 10:43 am (#26 of 144)
Steve, you left out Peter, Lily, and James, which would be two more killed.
So, out of 21, 8 dead (McKinnon, Fenwick, Bones, Prewett, Prewett, Meadows, Potter, Potter), 1 disappeared (Dearborn), 2 tortured to insanity (Longbottom, Longbottom), and one turned traitor and servant to Voldemort (Pettigrew). Only nine of the original members shown still around and free--less than half. No wonder Molly is worried!
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 12:18 pm (#27 of 144)
Librarian
Ann, you're right. A big DUH! moment here.
So 21. Still not a meaningful number to me.
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Ann - Oct 24, 2004 12:58 pm (#28 of 144)
Blackjack?
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KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 1:07 pm (#29 of 144)
Maybe the British forum members would recognize 21 as a significant number in their culture? To Americans it means blackjack, the legal drinking age, or a 21-gun salute.
Hey, a 21-gun salute is universal.
From Google:
For many years, the number of guns fired for various purposes differed from country to country. By 1730, the Royal Navy was prescribing 21 guns for certain anniversary dates, although this was not mandatory as a salute to the Royal family until later in the eighteenth century.
AND...
What is the origin of the 21-gun salute? The use of gun salutes for military occasions is traced to early warriors who demonstrated their peaceful intentions by placing their weapons in a position that rendered them ineffective. Apparently this custom was universal, with the specific act varying with time and place, depending on the weapons being used. A North African tribe, for example, trailed the points of their spears on the ground to indicate that they did not mean to be hostile.
The tradition of rendering a salute by cannon originated in the 14th century as firearms and cannons came into use. Since these early devices contained only one projectile, discharging them once rendered them ineffective. Originally warships fired seven-gun salutes--the number seven probably selected because of its astrological and Biblical significance. Seven planets had been identified and the phases of the moon changed every seven days. The Bible states that God rested on the seventh day after Creation, that every seventh year was sabbatical and that the seven times seventh year ushered in the Jubilee year.
Land batteries, having a greater supply of gunpowder, were able to fire three guns for every shot fired afloat, hence the salute by shore batteries was 21 guns. The multiple of three probably was chosen because of the mystical significance of the number three in many ancient civilizations. Early gunpowder, composed mainly of sodium nitrate, spoiled easily at sea, but could be kept cooler and drier in land magazines. When potassium nitrate improved the quality of gunpowder, ships at sea adopted the salute of 21 guns.
The 21-gun salute became the highest honor a nation rendered. Varying customs among the maritime powers led to confusion in saluting and return of salutes. Great Britain, the world's preeminent seapower in the 18th and 19th centuries, compelled weaker nations to salute first, and for a time monarchies received more guns than did republics. Eventually, by agreement, the international salute was established at 21 guns, although the United States did not agree on this procedure until August 1875.
So, could JKR be referring to a wizarding monarchy? A stretch, I know.
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LooneyLuna - Oct 24, 2004 5:05 pm (#30 of 144)
Was Lupin in the original order? He's not in the picture, is he?
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librarian314 - Oct 24, 2004 5:59 pm (#31 of 144)
Lupin is mentioned between Emmaline Vance and Benjy Fenwick. (The Woes of Mrs. Weasley, p.174, OotP, Am. ppbk.)
There are some people (Aberforth, Dorcas, Sirius, the Potters, and Pettigrew) that are hidden/not easily seen because of the people in front of them. Moody tells the people in the front to "shift aside" and "budge along" and "the little people in the photograph jostled among themselves and those hidden right at the back appeared at the forefront of the picture." (Ibid.)
I vaguely envision the photo as being arranged in an irregular clump with some of the people being partially obscured, kind of like informal team photos where taller people sometimes end up in front of shorter people or a raised hand hides someone's face.
I know how I imagine it to be: an irregular blob, with three-ish rows. The bottom row consisting, left to right, Albus, Moody, Diggle, McKinnon, the Longbottoms, Vance, Lupin, and Fenwick. Just behind them are, left to right, Bones, Podmore, Dearborn, Hagrid, Doge, and Prewett. Behind them, again, left to right, Aberforth, Meadowes, Black, Lily, Pettigrew, and James. This puts MWPP on the same side of the photo separated by only a couple of people. (I like to think that Remus was chatting up Emmaline ;-) ) It sort of ends up looking like a rough Pyramid shape or maybe more like a bowler hat or a baseball cap if Albus, Moody, and Diggle are slightly off to the side.
I picture it thusly due to the way Moody describes it. The first shift aside comes after the mention of Fenwick, the second after Prewett.
This is one of the things I hope they show in the movie, so I can get a better idea of what JKR thinks it looks like.
*michelle the librarian**
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 6:51 pm (#32 of 144)
Librarian
Looney, he is definitely in the picture.
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Czarina II - Oct 24, 2004 9:53 pm (#33 of 144)
I somehow always assumed that there were more Order members than were present in the photo?
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 25, 2004 4:07 am (#34 of 144)
There probably are, especially if someone is taking the photo.
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TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 5:03 am (#35 of 144)
Bullheaded empiricist
I always assumed it was more like a picture at a party, there was absolutely no way that all of the Order members were even in the frame of the camera when the photo was snapped. Yet, magic being magic, everyone that was at the party could shuffle into the picture and wave at Moody.
Naturally, no way it would work with a muggle camera, but why not with a magic one?
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 12:51 pm (#36 of 144)
It would have been taken after Lily and James left Hogwarts, but before they were assassinated - that narrows it down to about three years then doesn't it? From 1978-1981, but as so many of the rest of the members in the photograph are now deceased, probably quite early in this phase.
I can't imagine the appeal of the Order to a full blooded wizard. It surely couldn't compare to the initial appeal of the Death Eaters?
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Ann - Oct 25, 2004 12:59 pm (#37 of 144)
Bash: "I can't imagine the appeal of the Order to a full blooded wizard. It surely couldn't compare to the initial appeal of the Death Eaters?"
What initial appeal? Not all members of elite groups find it necessary, or even pleasant, to put down people who are not members of the same group (much less kill them for fun). In fact, most probably find it abhorrent, particularly when elite status is something you are born with rather than something you achieve. Usually the people who value most highly the status that they get from their birth are people who don't have much else to be proud of. I think Voldemort's movement would be appealing mostly to the pure blood wizards who haven't done anything but be pure bloods--perhaps in many cases for generations. I mean, Crabbe & Goyle? People like Arthur Weasley and Sirius Black and James Potter don't need that sort of "pure-blood solidarity."
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 2:08 pm (#38 of 144)
Forgotten the way the animal kingdon works Ann? Animals commonly torture and kill members of other species for no other reason than that they are of different species. Take cats and mice!
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Aud Duck - Oct 25, 2004 3:36 pm (#39 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Cats eat mice, so it is a rather different thing. Cats get a meal out of the torture and death. Death Eaters get the pleasure of torturing people.
I think Voldemort's movement would be appealing mostly to the pure blood wizards who haven't done anything but be pure bloods--perhaps in many cases for generations. --Ann
Maybe sometimes, but I doubt it works in general. People like Bellatrix would be able to do plenty just on their merit as witches and wizards.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 25, 2004 3:40 pm (#40 of 144)
Ah, Bash, but I think you are overstating that animal kingdom metpahor a bit. Most living things in nature want one thing--to produce the next generation. Predatory animals hunt and kill as efficiently as possible (torture takes time) for the purpose of providing food for themselves and sometimes their offspring. These are not sentient, thinking beings, they are animals operating on instinct.
If what you say is really happening, the squirrel and rabbit in my yard right now would be going at each other tooth and claw. They may be competing with each other for the delicious bulbs I planted two weeks ago, but that's a far cry from torturing and killing. They seems to be completely ignoring each other actually. The robin has arrived and he's being ignored, too.
No one is denying that humanity is often embroiled in the worst wars and both individuals and groups will often exhibit horrible behavior to others, but I don't believe one can make a blanket statement that the "haves" must always be against the "have-nots" or the "ins" are by nature on opposite sides of the "outs." There are many examples of people reaching out across economic and cultural. There are groups worldwide with goals of establishing good relations between people who traditionally don't get along so well.
Now, what is JKR telling us in her story? I think she's showing us how similar the magical world is to the real one. There are some maybe even many wizards who are either threatened by the idea of inclusion, there are probably many who don't really think about it, but would go along with restrictive practices, and there are those that abhor the idea of eliminating the diversity that the half-blood and muggle-born witches and wizards bring to the society.
If what you suggest about the DE-side being much more appealing to a pure-blood, why would Voldemort's recruiting tactics include a heavy use of torture and blackmail? Why does his "inner circle" of DEs, the gang that shows us in the graveyard in GoF, seem so completely terrified of their Lord?
Ciao. Barb
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 4:16 pm (#41 of 144)
That could be explained, but only by inference: It is likely that most of Voldemort's wizard 'followers' are on a par with the giants and goblins and that the real Death Eaters are in fact a small group of pure blooded wizards who are his only inner circle.
However, Voldemort seems to have a personal agenda which is to cause as much general carnage as possible. This is most likely what disgusted many of his sympathisers (such as the Blacks) when it became apparent and must be sufficient to intimidate even his most fanatical supporters.
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ruthlesspenguin - Oct 26, 2004 7:44 pm (#42 of 144)
Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Barb, I think you may be confusing the Death Eaters shown to us at the end of GoF and the view of Voldemort when he first came to power. According to Sirius 'there were quite a few people, before he showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things...they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though.' (The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black, OotP)
Fear of the outsider is a common emotion and it is easy to see how many pure-bloods would support someone who claimed to be 'the only one who could deal with those lazy muggle-borns, who were living off the centuries of magical development made by our ancesters and depriving our children of jobs.' Of course many of these supporters would not have thought about what Voldie meant by 'deal with', probably just assuming they would be sent 'back where they came from'. It would have been quite a shock for them when they found out that Voldie had other ideas than a simple leaflet campaign and a bit of pressure on certain members of the ministry.
So while I think Bash has a point that the Death Eaters would initially be more appealing to many pure-bloods, I don't think it would be because 'it is fun to kill and torture people who are different' as seems to be suggested. Rather I think the attraction of the Death-Eaters would be more a consequence of ignorance and fear, along the lines of 'we are different, so we can do our thing over here, and they can go and their thing (whatever that is) somewhere else.'
In the case of the Order however, uf we assume it was started in reaction to Voldemort's rise in power, then Order members would have known that they were risking their lives by signing up. It is one thing to beleive that everyone should be treated equally, quite another to sacrifice your life for this reason.
<(')
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JackO - Oct 27, 2004 10:03 am (#43 of 144)
Sorry, this is sort of off topic but:
Did we ever find out how the members of the Order communicated with each other? It would be interesting if they used a photo for that purpose.
Just had to say that. Now you can get back to your discussion which I can't think of anything to add to.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 27, 2004 3:01 pm (#44 of 144)
That would be interesting. They could also use:
Portraits
Two way (or ten way!) mirrors like the one Sirius gave Harry *sniff*
Muggle telephones (Not likely, but I think it's funny)
Fawkes sending messages back and forth (Fakes can Apparate)
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Ann - Oct 27, 2004 6:14 pm (#45 of 144)
If the people in the photograph Moody showed Harry used Muggle telephones to communicate (note how neatly I worked the thread topic in), they aren't using them any more. Otherwise surely Arthur would develop a bit more deftness with them.
I like the idea, too--you would definitely exclude all the DEs, since they can't be muggle-born. But they wouldn't work at Hogwarts, since they need electricity.
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therealscabbers - Oct 28, 2004 8:21 am (#46 of 144)
Petra t
didnt DD send a "silvery thing" to get Hagrid when the real barty crouch turned up in GOF? might be lying but dont have books on me! if so this may be a way of communicating - maybe similar thing to the memories in the pensive - think of a message then conjour it so it floats of to find the recipient where it plants itself into their mind - long range telepathy
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Steve Newton - Oct 28, 2004 9:08 am (#47 of 144)
Librarian
Harry saw the silvery thing as the image of a bird. (Can't quote exactly since my books are at home.) I figure that it was probably a phoenix shape and is how the OOTP calls for help from each other. Sort of a saner version of the Dark Mark used by Lord V.
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wwtMask - Oct 29, 2004 11:30 am (#48 of 144)
Zelmia, I don't think Arthur was in the Order the first time around. Lupin himself said in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasly" that Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the last time.
I've always wondered about the number of DEs and Order members. According to Lupin (or was it Sirius?), the Order was outnumbered 10 to 1 last time. Where are all the others DEs? Even counting all the DEs that are dead or locked up, the number that showed up in the Graveyard were significantly less than even twice that of the original Order, if that photo shows all the members (which it does not). If we assume that the "inner circle" consisted of those DEs in the Graveyard, why could Karkaroff not name all of them (seriously, how hard can it be to learn the names of 12 people you work with for a few years, even if they are trying to remain anonymous)? Are we then to believe that every other wizard working for Voldemort was acting under the imperious curse? At 10 to 1, that's an awful lot of wizards to be manipulated with the imperious curse. Could there be even more DEs, foot soldiers, if you will, who still roam free? If there are, why didn't they respond to the dark mark at the Quidditch World Cup or go to the Graveyard?
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legolas - Oct 29, 2004 11:36 am (#49 of 144)
I hope that he was exagerating to make a point when he said 10:1. Scarey thought all those people doing his evil bidding.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 11:54 am (#50 of 144)
Lupin gave Molly the ratio 10 to 1 while, trying to comfort her after her experience with the Boggart. Is it posible that Lupin was not exaggerating the number as Edmund Burke once said, All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I would guess that the people in the picture are the people that happened to be at headquarters when it was taken, and that it does not include nearly all of the Order members. It would probably have been impossible to gather them all together in one place. Judging by the fact that so many of the people in the photograph are dead, it was probably taken fairly early in the war, before the Death Eaters has started methodically killing off Order members. Personally, I have to wonder why this was taken. Sure, it would not include people that were spying on the Death Eaters, but it still doesn't seem like a good idea to create something that would, if found, tell the Death Eaters whom to kill.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 19, 2004 3:29 pm (#2 of 144)
Just to be sure that everyone's on the same page--literally and figuratively--the scene occurs in OoP, ch. 9 ("The Woes of Mrs. Weasley"), pgs. 173-175, US hardcover.
I, of course, just re-read it, and was struck by how upset, almost resentful, Harry seemed to have been shown it. In fact, he thinks to himself, "Well, Moody might find that interesting...he, Harry, found it disturbing...."
It was a shock to Harry to see his parents pictures again, everyone surrounding them happily waving and kidding around, "...not knowing that they were doomed...."
He tries to rationalize his feelings, already feeling guilty for not thinking that Moody had given him a big treat, "...but to have them sprung on him like that, when he was least expecting it...No one would like that, he thought angrily...."
Poor Harry--he's angry at Moody for this, but he's really angry at himself, I think. The last few weeks, months, even more, Harry has been living a miserable "it's all about me" sort of existence. He's probably carting around a large dose of guilt because he hasn't kept Cedric's death foremost in his thoughts, nor has he thought about his parents recently, or at least not enough.
Deep, deep down, I suspect this terribly difficult time for Harry includes some resentment of his parents' involvement in the very group that Moody his so happy to tell him about. You know, if they hadn't been activists in the Order, all would be well now, they'd be a normal family, he'd be a loved son, no scar, no great responsibility to save the world.
This touching scene occurs just afte Harry's been cleared. He's pretty elated. Mixed with that is all the other messy emotions--anger, fear, jealousy (of Ron's badge), and it's just too much at that moment to have to deal with Moody's nostalgia.
I know Jessalynn was probably hoping the first response would be to discuss one of the questions she presented. I apologize for hi-jacking the discussion to go on a riff about the scene itself. So, in an attempt to redeem myself, I will offer an observation that this scene is a clever JKR technique to provide us with a ton of important information. Here's a whole roster of characters, many of whom we'll never meet, some of whom are provided with mini-bios by Moody. I wouldn't be surprised if this very photo comes up again in some way that helps the kids or the DA (or whoever) solve a critical problem.
Ciao. Barb
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Choices - Oct 19, 2004 5:28 pm (#3 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We can probably pin down the time the photograph was taken - James and Lily were a couple, probably married, but before they had Harry. It had to be about the time they left Hogwarts, married and were either expecting or about to be expecting Harry. You timeline experts correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be about 1978 or thereabouts?
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 19, 2004 5:41 pm (#4 of 144)
Yes, I think it would, Choices. And Barb, I don't mind at all.
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JackO - Oct 20, 2004 11:34 am (#5 of 144)
This is one of my favorite short scenes in the book, but the first time I read it I had the same basic feeling towards the photo as Harry. It's cool to hear about new characters and see Harry's parents and their friends together, but when he saw Pettigrew next to Lily and James I got so disgusted and angry. If I could speak to Wormtail face to face I'd have some choice words to say to him.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 20, 2004 4:30 pm (#6 of 144)
The photograph I would put closer to 1978 because, The Prewetts, Dorcas Meadowes, Marlene McKinnon, Benjy Fenwick, Caradoc Dearbon, and Edgar Bones are all present in the photograph. As prominent as the Prewetts, Edgar Bones, and Dorcas Meadowes appear. It seems unlikely that they were all murdered within a time frame of a year because, that would have aroused suspiscion and possibly outrage among the wizarding community.
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Paul Filippelli - Oct 20, 2004 7:52 pm (#7 of 144)
There is no real way to put it on a timeline because every time JKR puts dates in the story they contradict each other: in CoS it says Nearly Headless Nick died in 1492 and it is his 500th Deathday; but in PoA it mentions Friday, Oct. 16, but October 16, 1993 was a Saturday. Another example of a date contradiction is the fact that Sept. 1 in OotP was a Sunday, but Sept. 1, 1995 was a Friday. I do, however, agree that the picture was taken about 2 years before Harry was born.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 20, 2004 8:31 pm (#8 of 144)
Paul, The only reference I could find concerning October 16, 1993 is to the death Lavender Brown's pet rabbit Binky. If you could provide the reference concerning Nick I would be most apprieciative. But, in Chapter 8 of the Chamber of Secrets the date of Nick's execution is given as October 31, 1492. It could be argued that a general timeline could be set because we know the photograph was taken between June 1978 and October 31, 1981.
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zelmia - Oct 20, 2004 10:41 pm (#9 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, I, for one, believe that Arthur was in the Order the first time round - even though he is not in the picture. If real life is any indication, these types of photos (i.e. sports teams, fraternal organisations, family reunions, etc.) NEVER have ALL the members present at the time they are taken. Someone is always missing for one reason or another.
There are many on the Forum who have used this photo pretty much as a full roster for the previous Order members. But we all know that Dumbledore was in the Order the first time and he is not in the photo.
As for who is taking it, that is an interesting question, and I wonder why Moody didn't mention that person by name. Is it possible to set a wizard camera on a timer?
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Madame Librarian - Oct 21, 2004 9:37 am (#10 of 144)
Zelmia, I'd bet any wizard worth his or her salt could charm a timer on a camera. Nevertheless, there are several good reasons members might not be in the photo ranging from on assignment, being photo-averse ("oh, don't bother with that charm Lily. I'll just take the picture myself. I hate the way I look in photos."), on leave, or not wishing to have a photo record of their presence (a spy, double agent), asleep/off duty...and on and on.
The intriguing bit may be just that--who's not in the picture and why? Will the picture become a parallel clue like the circle of DEs in the graveyard at the end of GoF?
Ciao. Barb
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Steve Newton - Oct 21, 2004 9:52 am (#11 of 144)
Librarian
I'll have to check, but, how many OOTP members are mentioned when the picture is described? Certain numbers seem to recur and seem to be important.
I'll try to remember to check tonight.
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Tomoé - Oct 21, 2004 11:01 am (#12 of 144)
Back in business
Zelmia, Dumbledore is in the picture :
'There's me,' said Moody, unnecessarily pointing at himself. The Moody in th picture was unmistakeable, though his hair was slightly less grey and his nose was intact. 'And there's Dumbledore beside me [...]'
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 21, 2004 4:10 pm (#13 of 144)
I think that Jo likes to sneak things in that nobody will notice, and this is something I noticed by luck. Next time she has a chat, someone ask who's missing and see what she answers. If she tells us straight out, no big deal. If she doesn't, I predict this thread will get an additional 50 messages added overnight!
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popkin - Oct 21, 2004 7:53 pm (#14 of 144)
mother
I think it's interesting that Moody and Dumbledore are next to each other. They sit next to each other at the Wizengamot trials, also. It makes me think that Moody is probably one of Dumbledore's closest friends.
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Classicsquid592 - Oct 21, 2004 8:22 pm (#15 of 144)
If that is the case one wonders why Dumbledore took a full year to recognize Crouch.
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 9:28 pm (#16 of 144)
"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Squid, that is one of those questions it's best not to ask. In other words, that has bugged the snot out of me since the book was published.
Marcus.
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therealscabbers - Oct 22, 2004 7:46 am (#17 of 144)
Petra t
because Crouch was very clever, and kept Moody alive to make sure he was able to get information to be able to fool even DD
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wolfgrl - Oct 22, 2004 12:00 pm (#18 of 144)
I have a question, from what we know, does the WW differ between photographs, and portraits? Can one move between photos or just paintings of ones self? Can photos talk like portraits? If they can maybe the photo was taken as a fast way to send info to each other. A copy was made for each person, and they could then send the photo of themself off with info to any other order member. I would gess that DD could put a charm on them to make shure the photo people could only go to other copies of the same photo. Maybe the "missing people" did not need this means of communication for what ever reason.
Edit: I just remembered the chocolate frog card that DD dissapears from, so I answered my own question about the portraits. But they could still be used as a communication device.
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Quidditch Mom - Oct 22, 2004 12:37 pm (#19 of 144)
Hi all. Longtime lurker. I don't get online much, and am still wading through the multitudes of your wonderful posts.
This is a bit off-track, but I've long been puzzled about the original Order. I was glad to discover a thread about them.
My question: Exactly how did the Order operate back then? There were Ministry aurors in the first Order, but I doubt that Lupin (werewolf), Mundungus (thief), and Mrs. Figg (squib) worked for the Ministry. We don't know about James and Lily and many others' occupations.
Was the original Order part of the Ministry? Did the Ministry simply know about and support them as best they could? Or were they a secret vigilante/resistance group outside Ministry control? I have the impression they were an underground group back then, as they were in Book 5. Except, why would there have been a need for secrecy back then? Any canon on this anywhere?
Now that the Ministry has acknowledged Voldemort is indeed back, how might the current Order relate to the Ministry in future books?
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 22, 2004 5:23 pm (#20 of 144)
"Except, why would there have been a need for secrecy back then?"
Same reason there's a need for secrecy now. Granted, it's a different authority... but there was no telling who was under Imperius and who wasn't. Heck, all of the Marauders suspected one of the others of being a spy...
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schoff - Oct 23, 2004 12:04 pm (#21 of 144)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
There is no real way to put it on a timeline because every time JKR puts dates in the story they contradict each other:
Just because JKR didn't correlate them to the real-life calendar doesn't mean we can't find dates. We just find them based on her calendar.
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TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 1:14 pm (#22 of 144)
Bullheaded empiricist
Many authors give exposition in long boring chapters rehashing the previous eight novels.
Jo doesn't succumb to this sort of thing.
The only time I've found her rehashing exposition boring is when she tries to rush through the Quiditch rules. CoS was particularly bad.
The Order photo scene seems very much like her way of giving needed exposition. What it's needed for I have no idea. All the deaths do seem to be a harbinger of an uncertain future.
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Steve Newton - Oct 23, 2004 1:44 pm (#23 of 144)
Librarian
From Chapter 9 of OOTP. The OOTP members mentioned in the photograph and, perhaps, some comments.
Moody, Dumbledore and Diggle on each side of him
Dumbledore, Albus variety
Dedalus Diggle
Marlene McKinnon, another example of alliteration, killed 2 weeks after the picture was taken. "They got her whole family."
Frank and Alice Longbottom
Emmeline Vance, Harry has met her
Lupin
Benjy Fenwick, "copped it," "we only ever found bits of him"
Edgar Bones, brother of Amelia, "they got him and his family too, he was a great wizard." Susan's uncle?
Sturgis Podmore, looks young
Caradoc Dearborn, vanished 6 months after this, body never found
Hagrid
Elphias Dodge, Harry has met (I don't remember this), stupid hat
Gideon Prewett, 5 death eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian, fought like heroes
Aberforth, only time Moody ever met him, strange bloke
Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally
Sirius, short hair
I count 18 named people. The number doesn't mean anything in particular to me since I don't think that JKR follows baseball. (The number needed to play a regulation game, no DH.)
I count 5 killed and one disappeared. I counted Benjy as a deader but you never know since they found about as much of him as they found of Peter and we know how well that went.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 23, 2004 10:36 pm (#24 of 144)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Aberforth, only time Moody ever met him, strange bloke" Rather interesting don't you think? Considering the tone is set for Moody to be one of Dumbledore's oldest friends, and yet has only met his brother once? Ok, goat spells aside, what gives here?
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 9:52 am (#25 of 144)
Librarian
Reading the list over I also notice that several families were wiped out. The McKinnons, the Bones' (obviously they are not counting nieces and such), maybe the Prewetts. Purebloods?
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Ann - Oct 24, 2004 10:43 am (#26 of 144)
Steve, you left out Peter, Lily, and James, which would be two more killed.
So, out of 21, 8 dead (McKinnon, Fenwick, Bones, Prewett, Prewett, Meadows, Potter, Potter), 1 disappeared (Dearborn), 2 tortured to insanity (Longbottom, Longbottom), and one turned traitor and servant to Voldemort (Pettigrew). Only nine of the original members shown still around and free--less than half. No wonder Molly is worried!
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 12:18 pm (#27 of 144)
Librarian
Ann, you're right. A big DUH! moment here.
So 21. Still not a meaningful number to me.
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Ann - Oct 24, 2004 12:58 pm (#28 of 144)
Blackjack?
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KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 1:07 pm (#29 of 144)
Maybe the British forum members would recognize 21 as a significant number in their culture? To Americans it means blackjack, the legal drinking age, or a 21-gun salute.
Hey, a 21-gun salute is universal.
From Google:
For many years, the number of guns fired for various purposes differed from country to country. By 1730, the Royal Navy was prescribing 21 guns for certain anniversary dates, although this was not mandatory as a salute to the Royal family until later in the eighteenth century.
AND...
What is the origin of the 21-gun salute? The use of gun salutes for military occasions is traced to early warriors who demonstrated their peaceful intentions by placing their weapons in a position that rendered them ineffective. Apparently this custom was universal, with the specific act varying with time and place, depending on the weapons being used. A North African tribe, for example, trailed the points of their spears on the ground to indicate that they did not mean to be hostile.
The tradition of rendering a salute by cannon originated in the 14th century as firearms and cannons came into use. Since these early devices contained only one projectile, discharging them once rendered them ineffective. Originally warships fired seven-gun salutes--the number seven probably selected because of its astrological and Biblical significance. Seven planets had been identified and the phases of the moon changed every seven days. The Bible states that God rested on the seventh day after Creation, that every seventh year was sabbatical and that the seven times seventh year ushered in the Jubilee year.
Land batteries, having a greater supply of gunpowder, were able to fire three guns for every shot fired afloat, hence the salute by shore batteries was 21 guns. The multiple of three probably was chosen because of the mystical significance of the number three in many ancient civilizations. Early gunpowder, composed mainly of sodium nitrate, spoiled easily at sea, but could be kept cooler and drier in land magazines. When potassium nitrate improved the quality of gunpowder, ships at sea adopted the salute of 21 guns.
The 21-gun salute became the highest honor a nation rendered. Varying customs among the maritime powers led to confusion in saluting and return of salutes. Great Britain, the world's preeminent seapower in the 18th and 19th centuries, compelled weaker nations to salute first, and for a time monarchies received more guns than did republics. Eventually, by agreement, the international salute was established at 21 guns, although the United States did not agree on this procedure until August 1875.
So, could JKR be referring to a wizarding monarchy? A stretch, I know.
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LooneyLuna - Oct 24, 2004 5:05 pm (#30 of 144)
Was Lupin in the original order? He's not in the picture, is he?
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librarian314 - Oct 24, 2004 5:59 pm (#31 of 144)
Lupin is mentioned between Emmaline Vance and Benjy Fenwick. (The Woes of Mrs. Weasley, p.174, OotP, Am. ppbk.)
There are some people (Aberforth, Dorcas, Sirius, the Potters, and Pettigrew) that are hidden/not easily seen because of the people in front of them. Moody tells the people in the front to "shift aside" and "budge along" and "the little people in the photograph jostled among themselves and those hidden right at the back appeared at the forefront of the picture." (Ibid.)
I vaguely envision the photo as being arranged in an irregular clump with some of the people being partially obscured, kind of like informal team photos where taller people sometimes end up in front of shorter people or a raised hand hides someone's face.
I know how I imagine it to be: an irregular blob, with three-ish rows. The bottom row consisting, left to right, Albus, Moody, Diggle, McKinnon, the Longbottoms, Vance, Lupin, and Fenwick. Just behind them are, left to right, Bones, Podmore, Dearborn, Hagrid, Doge, and Prewett. Behind them, again, left to right, Aberforth, Meadowes, Black, Lily, Pettigrew, and James. This puts MWPP on the same side of the photo separated by only a couple of people. (I like to think that Remus was chatting up Emmaline ;-) ) It sort of ends up looking like a rough Pyramid shape or maybe more like a bowler hat or a baseball cap if Albus, Moody, and Diggle are slightly off to the side.
I picture it thusly due to the way Moody describes it. The first shift aside comes after the mention of Fenwick, the second after Prewett.
This is one of the things I hope they show in the movie, so I can get a better idea of what JKR thinks it looks like.
*michelle the librarian**
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Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 6:51 pm (#32 of 144)
Librarian
Looney, he is definitely in the picture.
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Czarina II - Oct 24, 2004 9:53 pm (#33 of 144)
I somehow always assumed that there were more Order members than were present in the photo?
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 25, 2004 4:07 am (#34 of 144)
There probably are, especially if someone is taking the photo.
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TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 5:03 am (#35 of 144)
Bullheaded empiricist
I always assumed it was more like a picture at a party, there was absolutely no way that all of the Order members were even in the frame of the camera when the photo was snapped. Yet, magic being magic, everyone that was at the party could shuffle into the picture and wave at Moody.
Naturally, no way it would work with a muggle camera, but why not with a magic one?
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 12:51 pm (#36 of 144)
It would have been taken after Lily and James left Hogwarts, but before they were assassinated - that narrows it down to about three years then doesn't it? From 1978-1981, but as so many of the rest of the members in the photograph are now deceased, probably quite early in this phase.
I can't imagine the appeal of the Order to a full blooded wizard. It surely couldn't compare to the initial appeal of the Death Eaters?
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Ann - Oct 25, 2004 12:59 pm (#37 of 144)
Bash: "I can't imagine the appeal of the Order to a full blooded wizard. It surely couldn't compare to the initial appeal of the Death Eaters?"
What initial appeal? Not all members of elite groups find it necessary, or even pleasant, to put down people who are not members of the same group (much less kill them for fun). In fact, most probably find it abhorrent, particularly when elite status is something you are born with rather than something you achieve. Usually the people who value most highly the status that they get from their birth are people who don't have much else to be proud of. I think Voldemort's movement would be appealing mostly to the pure blood wizards who haven't done anything but be pure bloods--perhaps in many cases for generations. I mean, Crabbe & Goyle? People like Arthur Weasley and Sirius Black and James Potter don't need that sort of "pure-blood solidarity."
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 2:08 pm (#38 of 144)
Forgotten the way the animal kingdon works Ann? Animals commonly torture and kill members of other species for no other reason than that they are of different species. Take cats and mice!
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Aud Duck - Oct 25, 2004 3:36 pm (#39 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Cats eat mice, so it is a rather different thing. Cats get a meal out of the torture and death. Death Eaters get the pleasure of torturing people.
I think Voldemort's movement would be appealing mostly to the pure blood wizards who haven't done anything but be pure bloods--perhaps in many cases for generations. --Ann
Maybe sometimes, but I doubt it works in general. People like Bellatrix would be able to do plenty just on their merit as witches and wizards.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 25, 2004 3:40 pm (#40 of 144)
Ah, Bash, but I think you are overstating that animal kingdom metpahor a bit. Most living things in nature want one thing--to produce the next generation. Predatory animals hunt and kill as efficiently as possible (torture takes time) for the purpose of providing food for themselves and sometimes their offspring. These are not sentient, thinking beings, they are animals operating on instinct.
If what you say is really happening, the squirrel and rabbit in my yard right now would be going at each other tooth and claw. They may be competing with each other for the delicious bulbs I planted two weeks ago, but that's a far cry from torturing and killing. They seems to be completely ignoring each other actually. The robin has arrived and he's being ignored, too.
No one is denying that humanity is often embroiled in the worst wars and both individuals and groups will often exhibit horrible behavior to others, but I don't believe one can make a blanket statement that the "haves" must always be against the "have-nots" or the "ins" are by nature on opposite sides of the "outs." There are many examples of people reaching out across economic and cultural. There are groups worldwide with goals of establishing good relations between people who traditionally don't get along so well.
Now, what is JKR telling us in her story? I think she's showing us how similar the magical world is to the real one. There are some maybe even many wizards who are either threatened by the idea of inclusion, there are probably many who don't really think about it, but would go along with restrictive practices, and there are those that abhor the idea of eliminating the diversity that the half-blood and muggle-born witches and wizards bring to the society.
If what you suggest about the DE-side being much more appealing to a pure-blood, why would Voldemort's recruiting tactics include a heavy use of torture and blackmail? Why does his "inner circle" of DEs, the gang that shows us in the graveyard in GoF, seem so completely terrified of their Lord?
Ciao. Barb
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Bash - Oct 25, 2004 4:16 pm (#41 of 144)
That could be explained, but only by inference: It is likely that most of Voldemort's wizard 'followers' are on a par with the giants and goblins and that the real Death Eaters are in fact a small group of pure blooded wizards who are his only inner circle.
However, Voldemort seems to have a personal agenda which is to cause as much general carnage as possible. This is most likely what disgusted many of his sympathisers (such as the Blacks) when it became apparent and must be sufficient to intimidate even his most fanatical supporters.
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ruthlesspenguin - Oct 26, 2004 7:44 pm (#42 of 144)
Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Barb, I think you may be confusing the Death Eaters shown to us at the end of GoF and the view of Voldemort when he first came to power. According to Sirius 'there were quite a few people, before he showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things...they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though.' (The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black, OotP)
Fear of the outsider is a common emotion and it is easy to see how many pure-bloods would support someone who claimed to be 'the only one who could deal with those lazy muggle-borns, who were living off the centuries of magical development made by our ancesters and depriving our children of jobs.' Of course many of these supporters would not have thought about what Voldie meant by 'deal with', probably just assuming they would be sent 'back where they came from'. It would have been quite a shock for them when they found out that Voldie had other ideas than a simple leaflet campaign and a bit of pressure on certain members of the ministry.
So while I think Bash has a point that the Death Eaters would initially be more appealing to many pure-bloods, I don't think it would be because 'it is fun to kill and torture people who are different' as seems to be suggested. Rather I think the attraction of the Death-Eaters would be more a consequence of ignorance and fear, along the lines of 'we are different, so we can do our thing over here, and they can go and their thing (whatever that is) somewhere else.'
In the case of the Order however, uf we assume it was started in reaction to Voldemort's rise in power, then Order members would have known that they were risking their lives by signing up. It is one thing to beleive that everyone should be treated equally, quite another to sacrifice your life for this reason.
<(')
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JackO - Oct 27, 2004 10:03 am (#43 of 144)
Sorry, this is sort of off topic but:
Did we ever find out how the members of the Order communicated with each other? It would be interesting if they used a photo for that purpose.
Just had to say that. Now you can get back to your discussion which I can't think of anything to add to.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 27, 2004 3:01 pm (#44 of 144)
That would be interesting. They could also use:
Portraits
Two way (or ten way!) mirrors like the one Sirius gave Harry *sniff*
Muggle telephones (Not likely, but I think it's funny)
Fawkes sending messages back and forth (Fakes can Apparate)
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Ann - Oct 27, 2004 6:14 pm (#45 of 144)
If the people in the photograph Moody showed Harry used Muggle telephones to communicate (note how neatly I worked the thread topic in), they aren't using them any more. Otherwise surely Arthur would develop a bit more deftness with them.
I like the idea, too--you would definitely exclude all the DEs, since they can't be muggle-born. But they wouldn't work at Hogwarts, since they need electricity.
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therealscabbers - Oct 28, 2004 8:21 am (#46 of 144)
Petra t
didnt DD send a "silvery thing" to get Hagrid when the real barty crouch turned up in GOF? might be lying but dont have books on me! if so this may be a way of communicating - maybe similar thing to the memories in the pensive - think of a message then conjour it so it floats of to find the recipient where it plants itself into their mind - long range telepathy
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Steve Newton - Oct 28, 2004 9:08 am (#47 of 144)
Librarian
Harry saw the silvery thing as the image of a bird. (Can't quote exactly since my books are at home.) I figure that it was probably a phoenix shape and is how the OOTP calls for help from each other. Sort of a saner version of the Dark Mark used by Lord V.
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wwtMask - Oct 29, 2004 11:30 am (#48 of 144)
Zelmia, I don't think Arthur was in the Order the first time around. Lupin himself said in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasly" that Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the last time.
I've always wondered about the number of DEs and Order members. According to Lupin (or was it Sirius?), the Order was outnumbered 10 to 1 last time. Where are all the others DEs? Even counting all the DEs that are dead or locked up, the number that showed up in the Graveyard were significantly less than even twice that of the original Order, if that photo shows all the members (which it does not). If we assume that the "inner circle" consisted of those DEs in the Graveyard, why could Karkaroff not name all of them (seriously, how hard can it be to learn the names of 12 people you work with for a few years, even if they are trying to remain anonymous)? Are we then to believe that every other wizard working for Voldemort was acting under the imperious curse? At 10 to 1, that's an awful lot of wizards to be manipulated with the imperious curse. Could there be even more DEs, foot soldiers, if you will, who still roam free? If there are, why didn't they respond to the dark mark at the Quidditch World Cup or go to the Graveyard?
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legolas - Oct 29, 2004 11:36 am (#49 of 144)
I hope that he was exagerating to make a point when he said 10:1. Scarey thought all those people doing his evil bidding.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 11:54 am (#50 of 144)
Lupin gave Molly the ratio 10 to 1 while, trying to comfort her after her experience with the Boggart. Is it posible that Lupin was not exaggerating the number as Edmund Burke once said, All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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The Photograph Moody Showed Harry (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Sun May 29, 2011 1:45 am
Prefect Marcus - Oct 29, 2004 11:59 am (#51 of 144)
"Anyone can cook"
I've never considered the 10:1 ratio as an exact calculation. More of a "We are vastly outnumbered" statement.
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Steve Newton - Oct 29, 2004 12:08 pm (#52 of 144)
Librarian
I actually thought that he said 20-1. In any case I think that it just meant that we were outnumbered and are in much better shape this time.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 30, 2004 11:19 am (#53 of 144)
I think he was exaggerating too.
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 30, 2004 11:23 am (#54 of 144)
"Anyone can cook"
First of all, it is doubtful that the order burst full-force into being. It likely began small and grew in size. So, as Lupin says, it would have been vastly out-numbered, especially in the beginning.
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zelmia - Oct 30, 2004 1:19 pm (#55 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Lupin himself said in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" that Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the last time. - wwtmask
Lupin's exact words were "You weren't in the Order last time..." I have always understood him to be referring to Molly, herself, not Molly and Arthur. Clearly others have interpreted this statement differently. All we can glean for certain from Lupin's remark is that Molly was not in the Order the first time round.
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JackO - Oct 31, 2004 8:21 am (#56 of 144)
I agree that the ratio is probably an exaggeration, but I wonder if Lupin was also referring to all the other forces who were on Voldemort's side the last time, like the Giants and other big, hairy creatures with extra limbs that Hagrid would surely try to adopt if at all possible.
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Steve Newton - Nov 16, 2004 7:28 am (#57 of 144)
Librarian
I am listening to OOTP, again. I noticed that when Moody shows the picture to Harry that Dumbledore and Diggle on each side of Moody. The only other mention of somebody being between 2 other is the person between Lily and James. One Peter Pettigrew. Is this a hint that Moody will go traitor?
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Catherine - Nov 16, 2004 6:09 pm (#58 of 144)
Canon Seeker
Is this a hint that Moody will go traitor?
Well, Moody has already, as of GoF, "been there and done that," in terms of being "the bad guy" against his will.
I think Alastor Moody, minus the Death Eaters, is a real veteran of a real war who can lend some advice.
He's also a huge resource for any budding wizard warrior.
I don't think, by his own choice, that he'd go Dark.
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wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 6:50 am (#59 of 144)
Zelmia, the problem I have with the way that is read is that Molly shouldn't be as bothered if Arthur really was in the Order before. And, even if Arthur had secretly been a member of the original Order, Lupin would really be coming close to revealing that secret to Molly.
As for Moody being a traitor, I suppose it could work as a good surprise, but Dumbly trusts Moody and if we can't trust him, who can we trust? (sorry, had to borrow Hermione's line)
I wonder when the new Order is going to take a photo. I get the feeling they'll be in for the same kind of casualties this time around.
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Bash - Nov 17, 2004 8:03 pm (#60 of 144)
I think it will be different this time. The wizarding world is worn out from the previous conflicts.
I expect Moody's attitude towards the Death Eaters was disapproval at their creating disorder.
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2004 9:39 pm (#61 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Zelmia, the problem I have with the way that is read is that Molly shouldn't be as bothered if Arthur really was in the Order before. And, even if Arthur had secretly been a member of the original Order, Lupin would really be coming close to revealing that secret to Molly. - wwtmask
Good point. But she doesn't seem upset about it now. So either she knew about it all along, or she's simply not bothered. Still, there may have been a conversation between Molly and Arthur about this that we wouldn't know about; or there may have been one 'later that same night'. ("Arthur, what did Remus mean when he said,'you weren't in the Order then'?")
Either way, I'm going to guess that Lupin wasn't aware that Arthur's involvement may not have been known to his wife.
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Aud Duck - Nov 22, 2004 9:07 pm (#62 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Arthur may have been in the Order the first time around, but I can see no reason that he would keep it a secret from Molly. Weren't the Prewitts (her relatives) in the Order the first time? Haven't looked it up, so maybe not.
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Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2004 7:33 am (#63 of 144)
Librarian
Aud Duck, the Prewetts are in the photograph of the OOTP that Moody shows to Harry. They were members.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Nov 23, 2004 10:38 am (#64 of 144)
No day but Today
I'm sure that if Arthur was in the oreder the first time Molly knew about it. She is a person who you don't, or even can't, keep secrets from.
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hells456 - Nov 27, 2004 5:56 pm (#65 of 144)
Has anyone else wondered why Harry can clearly see Pettigrew between his parents in the photo?
In the chapter before this Harry sees Arthur's family photo in his office - "A photograph of the Weasley family stood beside the in-tray. Harry noticed that Percy had appeared to have walked out of it."
It seems strange to me that just a few pages before the Order photo, JKR reminded us that people can walk out of photos if they don't want to be there. I can understand why Pettigrew stayed in the photo before he was unmasked as the traitor, but why would he still be sitting there then, especially between Harry's beaming parents?
It is possible that Pettigrew wasn't a true traitor and that his actions were orchestrated by DD, or the Potters themselves, for some as yet unknown reason.
Any thoughts?
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zelmia - Nov 27, 2004 8:27 pm (#66 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Good question. Perhaps the fact that the photo was taken so long ago might have something to do with it.
Or perhaps Pettigrew is remorseful over what he did. Like Sirius and the other Marauders, Pettigrew was also only about 22 when all that was going on. Maybe now that he's older, part of him truly wishes he hadn't made the decisions he did then; the part that wants to stay in the photo.
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ruthlesspenguin - Nov 28, 2004 6:56 pm (#67 of 144)
Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
I had always assumed that photos show the people as they were when the photo was taken, and that their personalities do not evolve with time. For this reason, Peter was still in the photo as at the time he was not a traitor or was pretending not to be. This seems to fit in with some of the other photos we have seen, such as the picture of Sirius from Lily and James' wedding, which was smiling and waving, instead of trying to strangle Peter.
The photo of Percy seems to contradict this, however I think we should take note of the word 'appeared'. It could simply be that Harry had looked at the photo just when Percy had momentarily left it.
Alternatively, Moody showed that he was able to interact with the photo when he asked the people to move, so perhaps Arthur came in one morning after an argument with Percy and ordered him out of the photo.
<(')
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hells456 - Nov 30, 2004 9:14 am (#68 of 144)
Both very good points. I like the idea that Pettigrew is remorseful, and this is reflected by his photo self. It is also possible that he wasn't yet a traitor, we don't actually know for definite that it was him passing information (other that the Potters whereabouts) or for how long.
I didn't notice the "appeared", for all we know he could have been vanished with a spell, or ordered away as penguin suggested.
The descrption of the photo just stood out for me, I thought Moody stumbled on his words when he saw the Potters and Pettigrew, especially with them beaming away.
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Mare - Dec 29, 2004 5:49 am (#69 of 144)
It always seemed strange to me that Peter was sitting between Lily and James. I wouldn't have expected him to walk out himself, but I would have expected photo sirius and Lupin to throw him out.
The behaviour of Gilderoy, Harry and Percy in photo's had always led me to believe that photo's had some "link" to their real life counterparts.
Maybe that was why James and Lilly didn't do anything about Peter, they aren't alive anymore...
Another I noticed was the killer of Gideon and Fabian, Antonin Dolohov. He is the only one mentioned, allthough there are supposed to be four more. I wonder if some of these four are escaped death eaters as well, or DE's that we saw in the circle or simply dead.
I don't think we will see or meet the other four, but I was wondering if dolohov is going to cause some more pain to the Weasley family... Or maybe it will be one of the Weasleys who will get revenge.
(I like the last option better, I think)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 29, 2004 10:37 am (#70 of 144)
Marè, is possible that Doholov was mentioned in connection with the Prewett's murders because he was in command of the contingent of Death Eaters dispatched to kill Fabian and Gideon Prewett.
I like your thoughts regarding Prewett's and the Weasley's. I too have wondered whether Rosier, Wilkes, and or Travers was involvedin their murder.
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Ms Amanda - Dec 29, 2004 2:06 pm (#71 of 144)
I was greatly impressed by the scene in which Harry saw the photograph. I took the emotional ride with him. It's like sitting at your grandparents' house while they show you pictures of people long since dead. It's very disturbing to confront mortality like that, but older people who have experienced it more are much more comfortable with it. I think it is an excellently written scene that just deals honestly with two different points of view.
As for why the traitor doesn't leave the photograph, I have a couple of thoughts. First, the people in the photograph have the personality their real couterparts had at the time. In other words, Peter wanted to be there at the time the photograph was taken, or at least he wanted to appear that way. Second, the book clearly states that the people in the photograph don't know what has happened to them since the picture was taken. That explains why Pettigrew didn't leave and the Potters didn't throw him out of the picture.
If we need more evidence, let's think about other pictures we've seen. Percy's picture may have been taken near the time of the argument or may have witnessed the argument. That would explain him walking out. And Colin's picture of Harry and idiot-professor let's Harry pull away because that's how he felt at the time.
My question is, how much new information can photographs take in? It's clear that Percy's picture is aware of a family argument, but the people in the Order photograph don't know they are dead. Lockhart's photographs fix their hair at night and straighten up if people walk into the room with them, but the pictures of Lily and James that Hagrid gives to Harry don't act like they know what has happened.
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Aud Duck - Jan 4, 2005 6:22 pm (#72 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think that pictures do capture the people as they are when the photo is taken. I didn't, but Ms. Amanda has a good point about the Weasley family photo possibly being a recent photo. It's also possible (as I think has been suggested before) that Mr. Weasley asked photographic Percy to leave. It was probably pretty painful to sit at his desk and look at a loving, Percy-including family that he knew didn't exist anymore.
Incidentally, I think it is possible that photographic people do know what has happened, but that they don't necessarily care that they are dead. We have no proof that the James and Lily in Harry's pictures don't know that they died. I don't think it's all that surprising that, even if they did know that they had died, they would still cheerily wave at Harry. I think I would do the same thing if I died and someone I loved got hold of my picture. I might even be more friendly on account of my death. Think of Harry's parents. They died when he was barely a year old. Depending on how aware photos are of their surroundings (and, given that the Potters had frieds like Hagrid and Lupin, I would say that those photos got a chance to do a lot of listening), it is entirely possible that they knew that Harry was being raised by the Dursleys, knew how miserable that would be, and wanted to show their love for their son as best they could. As they were pictures, all they could really do was smile at him and wave. But I don't think that the fact of being dead would stop them from doing what they could.
I'm not sure that photographs are that aware of things, but if they are, I don't think it's odd that they would still be so cheerful. They've had a long time to contemplate being dead. They've probably gotten over it by now.
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Hermy - Jan 5, 2005 8:37 pm (#73 of 144)
I agree that the people in the photographs know what happened to them. The portraits in Dumbledore's office are aware that they are not the current headmaster although the portrait was made at or soon after being headmaster. Phineas is aware of Sirius which is his great-great-grandson the last of the Blacks is dead.
Moody is talking to the photograph and the people are responding. If they didn't know they were dead he didn't mind telling them. "Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too, we only ever found bits of him...... shift aside there,"
Maybe Neville's parents will be able to give him a clue on how to save them.
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Aud Duck - Jan 6, 2005 12:36 pm (#74 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
If they didn't know they were dead he didn't mind telling them.
Good point there, Hermy.
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Maria Dunlavey - Jan 9, 2005 6:23 am (#75 of 144)
One thing I noticed, in respect to how complete the photo is, was that Gideon Prewett was mentioned as being in the photo, and it's mentioned that he and Fabian died like heroes, but Moody never says that Fabian is in the photo. It's pretty ridiculous to think that he wouldn't be part of the Order, so I doubt that the entire Order was present at the time.
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John Bumbledore - Jan 10, 2005 2:31 pm (#76 of 144)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Portraits are not Photographs
The portraits are said to be on Canvas or at least in a frame. To me this indicates they were painted portraits. This requires a substantially longer time investment for the subject as well as the painter.
This is in contrast to photographs which are taken more quickly. This could explain why Portraits talk, discuss, and move while photos only move.
(John) Bumbledore
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constant vigilance - Jan 12, 2005 8:21 am (#77 of 144)
art student
I don't believe all of the Order members were present when the photo was taken because I don't recall any mention of Mcgonagal or Hagrid. Considering these two were very involved in Harry's rescue and relocation I would have a hard time believing they weren't part of the Original Order.
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scoop2172000 - Jan 12, 2005 8:45 am (#78 of 144)
Excellent point, Bumbledore.
Adding my two knuts to your theory: a portrait usually (though not always) requires the cooperation of the subject, who must "sit" for the artist. Perhaps part of the subject's agreeing to cooperate in the making of the portrait comes the cooperation of infusing his/her personality into the finished product.
By contrast, photos can be taken without the consent of the subject -- indeed, they can be taken against the will of the subject, such as Harry being dragged into the photo op with Lockhart at Flourish and Blots.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jan 12, 2005 12:22 pm (#79 of 144)
No day but Today
The pictures of Lockhart were portraits, not photographs, which was why they would fix thier hair and things when someone walked by. Its the same for the ex-headmasters. The portraits have some semblance of a brain and are perfectly aware of whats going on. Photo's don't. The people in the photo that Moody showed Harry probably don't know they are dead. Thats why they looked happy. They don't know what's going on. Percy was probably told to leave by Arthur.
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Aud Duck - Jan 12, 2005 5:36 pm (#80 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
We don't know that photos don't know what's going on. It's possible, but it is not an assumption we can make.
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Choices - Jan 12, 2005 6:32 pm (#81 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"Percy was probably told to leave by Arthur".....
But, if Arthur knew enough to tell him to leave, why couldn't Percy have known enough to want to leave?
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Hermy - Jan 12, 2005 8:28 pm (#82 of 144)
Maybe the photo people are happy because the picture was finally found by Moody.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 12, 2005 8:59 pm (#83 of 144)
It's an old photo. Maybe the little photo-people were upset when they first heard about their demise, but have since gotten over it, and have defaulted back to their original attitudes. I doubt the picture people have very complex emotions.
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T Brightwater - Jan 13, 2005 7:01 am (#84 of 144)
constant vigilance, I thought Hagrid was in the photo - didn't Moody say something about how you couldn't miss him? (Haven't got the book here.)
It's possible that living people have some control over their photographic images, conscious or otherwise - I'm thinking of Harry's image pulling away from Lockhart. That would account for Percy leaving the Weasley family photo.
If this is true, it may signify that Peter wishes he were still in the Order
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Steve Newton - Jan 13, 2005 7:51 am (#85 of 144)
Librarian
T, I did a list of who was in the photograph back in post 23 and others added comments up to post 28 or so. No Hagrid sighting.
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Catherine - Jan 13, 2005 9:19 am (#86 of 144)
Canon Seeker
Steve, Hagrid was in the picture of the original Order. One of your lists includes him.
From Chapter 9 of OoP, Scholastic hardback, page 174: "...Caradoc Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body...Hagrid, of course, looks exactly the same as ever...
If I misunderstood yours last post, or anyone else's post, I apologize in advance. I just wanted to be precise.
Here's the link to Steve's list of Order members in Moody's photograph:
Steve Newton, "The Photograph Moody Showed Harry" #23, 23 Oct 2004 12:44 pm
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Steve Newton - Jan 13, 2005 9:35 am (#87 of 144)
Librarian
Wow, Catherine, I can't even read my own post. Thanks for the correction.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 6, 2005 12:27 pm (#88 of 144)
Is possible that the photo ended up being a liability for the order. In that it could have served as a visual guide for the Death Eaters much like wanted posters.
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Aud Duck - Feb 6, 2005 1:46 pm (#89 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
That's the main reason that I think a lot--or even most--of the members were left out of the photograph. Only people that were already open Dumbledore supporters would have considered it safe to be in the photo. It would have been pretty predictable that Moody, for instance, would be part of the Order.
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Choices - Feb 6, 2005 6:45 pm (#90 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But, if the photograph was just in Moody's private collection, how would any DE's see it? I'm sure Moody wouldn't just show it to anybody. Maybe he just carries it around to remind him of the friends and collegues he has lost because of Voldemort - reminds him why he is fighting - to keep more deaths from happening.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 9, 2005 1:59 pm (#91 of 144)
Choices, that raises the following question: Is it possible that more than one copy of the photograph exists? I agree that Moddy would not not show the photograph to any Death Eaters. But, the same cannot be said of Peter Pettigrew.
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Choices - Feb 9, 2005 7:00 pm (#92 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Nathan - Of course the possibility exists, but I just don't think it is likely. I have gone places and taken a photograph of a group of people and I don't come home and have bunches of copies made and pass them around. I don't think Moody would either, especially when the picture is of a secret group who need their identities kept secret. As paranoid as Moody is about dark wizards, I think he of all people would keep it to himself. If someone wanted to betray the group, they wouldn't have to have a photograph, they could just name names.
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librarian314 - Feb 11, 2005 10:01 am (#93 of 144)
Hey all!
I have the feeling that there were/may be other copies of the photo. It would help to know if the photo was staged or just a candid shot. If it was staged, then there's a chance that Moody took it himself and the camera was on a timer, and he made just one print for himself. I think though, if it were staged, more of those in the photo would have wanted a copy.
Oh the other hand, if it were a candid snap-shot, then Moody did not take the photo, as he is in it, sitting with Dumbledore, and my guess is that may be the only copy. Maybe one of the people who died soon after it was taken was the photographer and it was sitting on the roll of film in the camera. Moody had the film developed and when he saw this photo kept it to keep it out of others' hands.
Or maybe a copy of this photo fell into the wrong hands and the Death Eaters were using it as a check-list.
I don't think that Moody took the photo, but he never said who did.
I kind of hope we find out who the photographer was because this photo is definitely one worth more than a 1000 words! ;-)
*michelle the librarian**
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Aud Duck - Feb 19, 2005 8:59 pm (#94 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Even if it was a candid shot, there was likely someone in the group that said "Can I have a copy of that when you get it developed, Mad-Eye?" I've never been in a picture of that many people where someone didn't want a copy. I'm not saying everyone in the Order had a copy, but that probably one or two other people had one. This might be the only one left, of course.
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Good Evans - Feb 20, 2005 2:35 am (#95 of 144)
Practically perfect in every way
I always thought the photo was taken for prosterity (sp?) in that while we are all here - and all alive!! lets have a picture, weren't some people sitting down? and other standing?
I also assumed the "camera" was operated by magic so everyone could be in it.
I agree it is a risky thing to do, but Moody is careful (constant vigilence!!!) and despite his little mishap in GoF (but he was older then) I suspect DD had no problem with the photo being taken at the time and kept by moody.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 11, 2005 4:07 pm (#96 of 144)
When Moody shows Harry the photo he says that it is a photo of the original Order of the Phoenix. Now I developed an idea is it possible that there was at least one reformation of the Order between 1978 and 1982 in which new members were added to replace those members of the original order who were deceased or incapacitated and that a photo was taken of them as well.
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Aud Duck - Apr 3, 2005 1:42 pm (#97 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I'm not sure quite what Moody meant by "the original Order of the Phoenix." It could mean that it was a picture of the very first members of the Order, or just that it was of people who were in the Order the last time Voldemort was in power. And it is, of course, possible that there was a reformation during Voldemort War I. Would this make any difference in what information we can get from the photograph?
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Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Apr 27, 2005 9:52 pm (#98 of 144)
It seems to me that wizard photos "capture the moment" in a similar way that Muggle ones do, only in a deeper way. The people in the photos move around, but their personality and emotions stay exactly the same as the moment the photo was taken. That explains why Harry's photo self keeps walking out of the picture with Lockhart - because that's what Harry wanted to do at the time. Lockhart's photos primp and curl their hair because Lockhart was just as vain when the photos were taken as he always is. It also explains the happy, smiling faces of all those dead Order-members; the mood in the room is happy and cheerful, and the photo captures that, forever.
The one hole in this theory is the instance of Percy walking out; the only two possibilities I see are: 1) as other people have suggested, it was a recent picture - in my opinion, that must mean recent enough that the divisions and anger were already brewing. The Percy in the picture doesn't necessarily know that his real self has abandoned the family; he's just walked out of the photograph because Percy already felt like walking out at the time. Or, 2) JKR is just being a little inconsistent about photos.
Oh, one more possibility: (3) The spell used on the camera-film isn't consistent, or comes in different varieties, giving photo-people different awarenesses of what's going on in the real world.
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Tomoé - Apr 28, 2005 1:29 pm (#99 of 144)
Back in business
Moody was able to move the people around in his photograph, maybe Arthur asked photo Percy leace the frame.
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Moo4Freedom - Jun 5, 2005 7:53 pm (#100 of 144)
Ok, I'm new to the forum so bear with me.
This is how I see it. I think Astra was right about therebeing different types of magic pictures or in other words ways to develop them. There seem to be 3 levels of picture complexity.
1.Painted Portraits -These seem to retain not the moment like a snapshot, but the personality of the subject. It mimics how the person would react to the different situations put before it. Sirius's mother's portrait also had knowledge in a sense. She recognized Sirius and knows how he is a traitor. The Fat Lady also seems to have a memory. She knows who isn't in the house and won't let them in even if they have the correct password. This shows that they are complex piece of magic and therefore not easily created unless by a skilled wizard. The former headmasters' portraits are another example.
2.Emotional Snapshots - This seems to be the type of photo that Moody showed Harry. The people's feelings at the moment the picture was taken were captured in the picture. Much like the picture taken of Harry with Lockhart. Trapping emotions might not be too terribly difficult, but it seems to require a bit of skill. Colin was able to make it simply because he was in a school stuffed with magical professors. I can't remember who he said helped him. If Moody had produced the picture he showed Harry then it would be understandible it was the emotion capturing kind. Moody is a skilled wizard.
3. Moving Pictures - Cleary the above two types of pictures move. However these are the most simple to make. The family picture of the Weasleys is one of these. The Weasley's didn't know how to make the emotional picture so they did the best they could. The strictly moving pictures have no emotions. In the sense that they do not exhibit the emotions of the moment of picture taken. They merely stay for the most part, in the position they were in when the picture was taken. That is until instructed to otherwise or if they observe something that makes them react. Photo Percy in the family photo saw the real Percy leave so he left. It stated in the book that he stomped out of the family photo. Another example is the Viktor Krum pictures from the camp site at the World Cup. Viktor being, well a quiet person only blinks and scowls. His reaction was most likely the scowling at the Irish fans. The Krum model seems to have a similiar charm. He scowls at Ron's shamrock.
That's my theory.
"Anyone can cook"
I've never considered the 10:1 ratio as an exact calculation. More of a "We are vastly outnumbered" statement.
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Steve Newton - Oct 29, 2004 12:08 pm (#52 of 144)
Librarian
I actually thought that he said 20-1. In any case I think that it just meant that we were outnumbered and are in much better shape this time.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 30, 2004 11:19 am (#53 of 144)
I think he was exaggerating too.
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 30, 2004 11:23 am (#54 of 144)
"Anyone can cook"
First of all, it is doubtful that the order burst full-force into being. It likely began small and grew in size. So, as Lupin says, it would have been vastly out-numbered, especially in the beginning.
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zelmia - Oct 30, 2004 1:19 pm (#55 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Lupin himself said in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" that Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order the last time. - wwtmask
Lupin's exact words were "You weren't in the Order last time..." I have always understood him to be referring to Molly, herself, not Molly and Arthur. Clearly others have interpreted this statement differently. All we can glean for certain from Lupin's remark is that Molly was not in the Order the first time round.
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JackO - Oct 31, 2004 8:21 am (#56 of 144)
I agree that the ratio is probably an exaggeration, but I wonder if Lupin was also referring to all the other forces who were on Voldemort's side the last time, like the Giants and other big, hairy creatures with extra limbs that Hagrid would surely try to adopt if at all possible.
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Steve Newton - Nov 16, 2004 7:28 am (#57 of 144)
Librarian
I am listening to OOTP, again. I noticed that when Moody shows the picture to Harry that Dumbledore and Diggle on each side of Moody. The only other mention of somebody being between 2 other is the person between Lily and James. One Peter Pettigrew. Is this a hint that Moody will go traitor?
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Catherine - Nov 16, 2004 6:09 pm (#58 of 144)
Canon Seeker
Is this a hint that Moody will go traitor?
Well, Moody has already, as of GoF, "been there and done that," in terms of being "the bad guy" against his will.
I think Alastor Moody, minus the Death Eaters, is a real veteran of a real war who can lend some advice.
He's also a huge resource for any budding wizard warrior.
I don't think, by his own choice, that he'd go Dark.
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wwtMask - Nov 17, 2004 6:50 am (#59 of 144)
Zelmia, the problem I have with the way that is read is that Molly shouldn't be as bothered if Arthur really was in the Order before. And, even if Arthur had secretly been a member of the original Order, Lupin would really be coming close to revealing that secret to Molly.
As for Moody being a traitor, I suppose it could work as a good surprise, but Dumbly trusts Moody and if we can't trust him, who can we trust? (sorry, had to borrow Hermione's line)
I wonder when the new Order is going to take a photo. I get the feeling they'll be in for the same kind of casualties this time around.
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Bash - Nov 17, 2004 8:03 pm (#60 of 144)
I think it will be different this time. The wizarding world is worn out from the previous conflicts.
I expect Moody's attitude towards the Death Eaters was disapproval at their creating disorder.
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2004 9:39 pm (#61 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Zelmia, the problem I have with the way that is read is that Molly shouldn't be as bothered if Arthur really was in the Order before. And, even if Arthur had secretly been a member of the original Order, Lupin would really be coming close to revealing that secret to Molly. - wwtmask
Good point. But she doesn't seem upset about it now. So either she knew about it all along, or she's simply not bothered. Still, there may have been a conversation between Molly and Arthur about this that we wouldn't know about; or there may have been one 'later that same night'. ("Arthur, what did Remus mean when he said,'you weren't in the Order then'?")
Either way, I'm going to guess that Lupin wasn't aware that Arthur's involvement may not have been known to his wife.
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Aud Duck - Nov 22, 2004 9:07 pm (#62 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Arthur may have been in the Order the first time around, but I can see no reason that he would keep it a secret from Molly. Weren't the Prewitts (her relatives) in the Order the first time? Haven't looked it up, so maybe not.
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Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2004 7:33 am (#63 of 144)
Librarian
Aud Duck, the Prewetts are in the photograph of the OOTP that Moody shows to Harry. They were members.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Nov 23, 2004 10:38 am (#64 of 144)
No day but Today
I'm sure that if Arthur was in the oreder the first time Molly knew about it. She is a person who you don't, or even can't, keep secrets from.
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hells456 - Nov 27, 2004 5:56 pm (#65 of 144)
Has anyone else wondered why Harry can clearly see Pettigrew between his parents in the photo?
In the chapter before this Harry sees Arthur's family photo in his office - "A photograph of the Weasley family stood beside the in-tray. Harry noticed that Percy had appeared to have walked out of it."
It seems strange to me that just a few pages before the Order photo, JKR reminded us that people can walk out of photos if they don't want to be there. I can understand why Pettigrew stayed in the photo before he was unmasked as the traitor, but why would he still be sitting there then, especially between Harry's beaming parents?
It is possible that Pettigrew wasn't a true traitor and that his actions were orchestrated by DD, or the Potters themselves, for some as yet unknown reason.
Any thoughts?
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zelmia - Nov 27, 2004 8:27 pm (#66 of 144)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Good question. Perhaps the fact that the photo was taken so long ago might have something to do with it.
Or perhaps Pettigrew is remorseful over what he did. Like Sirius and the other Marauders, Pettigrew was also only about 22 when all that was going on. Maybe now that he's older, part of him truly wishes he hadn't made the decisions he did then; the part that wants to stay in the photo.
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ruthlesspenguin - Nov 28, 2004 6:56 pm (#67 of 144)
Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
I had always assumed that photos show the people as they were when the photo was taken, and that their personalities do not evolve with time. For this reason, Peter was still in the photo as at the time he was not a traitor or was pretending not to be. This seems to fit in with some of the other photos we have seen, such as the picture of Sirius from Lily and James' wedding, which was smiling and waving, instead of trying to strangle Peter.
The photo of Percy seems to contradict this, however I think we should take note of the word 'appeared'. It could simply be that Harry had looked at the photo just when Percy had momentarily left it.
Alternatively, Moody showed that he was able to interact with the photo when he asked the people to move, so perhaps Arthur came in one morning after an argument with Percy and ordered him out of the photo.
<(')
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hells456 - Nov 30, 2004 9:14 am (#68 of 144)
Both very good points. I like the idea that Pettigrew is remorseful, and this is reflected by his photo self. It is also possible that he wasn't yet a traitor, we don't actually know for definite that it was him passing information (other that the Potters whereabouts) or for how long.
I didn't notice the "appeared", for all we know he could have been vanished with a spell, or ordered away as penguin suggested.
The descrption of the photo just stood out for me, I thought Moody stumbled on his words when he saw the Potters and Pettigrew, especially with them beaming away.
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Mare - Dec 29, 2004 5:49 am (#69 of 144)
It always seemed strange to me that Peter was sitting between Lily and James. I wouldn't have expected him to walk out himself, but I would have expected photo sirius and Lupin to throw him out.
The behaviour of Gilderoy, Harry and Percy in photo's had always led me to believe that photo's had some "link" to their real life counterparts.
Maybe that was why James and Lilly didn't do anything about Peter, they aren't alive anymore...
Another I noticed was the killer of Gideon and Fabian, Antonin Dolohov. He is the only one mentioned, allthough there are supposed to be four more. I wonder if some of these four are escaped death eaters as well, or DE's that we saw in the circle or simply dead.
I don't think we will see or meet the other four, but I was wondering if dolohov is going to cause some more pain to the Weasley family... Or maybe it will be one of the Weasleys who will get revenge.
(I like the last option better, I think)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 29, 2004 10:37 am (#70 of 144)
Marè, is possible that Doholov was mentioned in connection with the Prewett's murders because he was in command of the contingent of Death Eaters dispatched to kill Fabian and Gideon Prewett.
I like your thoughts regarding Prewett's and the Weasley's. I too have wondered whether Rosier, Wilkes, and or Travers was involvedin their murder.
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Ms Amanda - Dec 29, 2004 2:06 pm (#71 of 144)
I was greatly impressed by the scene in which Harry saw the photograph. I took the emotional ride with him. It's like sitting at your grandparents' house while they show you pictures of people long since dead. It's very disturbing to confront mortality like that, but older people who have experienced it more are much more comfortable with it. I think it is an excellently written scene that just deals honestly with two different points of view.
As for why the traitor doesn't leave the photograph, I have a couple of thoughts. First, the people in the photograph have the personality their real couterparts had at the time. In other words, Peter wanted to be there at the time the photograph was taken, or at least he wanted to appear that way. Second, the book clearly states that the people in the photograph don't know what has happened to them since the picture was taken. That explains why Pettigrew didn't leave and the Potters didn't throw him out of the picture.
If we need more evidence, let's think about other pictures we've seen. Percy's picture may have been taken near the time of the argument or may have witnessed the argument. That would explain him walking out. And Colin's picture of Harry and idiot-professor let's Harry pull away because that's how he felt at the time.
My question is, how much new information can photographs take in? It's clear that Percy's picture is aware of a family argument, but the people in the Order photograph don't know they are dead. Lockhart's photographs fix their hair at night and straighten up if people walk into the room with them, but the pictures of Lily and James that Hagrid gives to Harry don't act like they know what has happened.
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Aud Duck - Jan 4, 2005 6:22 pm (#72 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think that pictures do capture the people as they are when the photo is taken. I didn't, but Ms. Amanda has a good point about the Weasley family photo possibly being a recent photo. It's also possible (as I think has been suggested before) that Mr. Weasley asked photographic Percy to leave. It was probably pretty painful to sit at his desk and look at a loving, Percy-including family that he knew didn't exist anymore.
Incidentally, I think it is possible that photographic people do know what has happened, but that they don't necessarily care that they are dead. We have no proof that the James and Lily in Harry's pictures don't know that they died. I don't think it's all that surprising that, even if they did know that they had died, they would still cheerily wave at Harry. I think I would do the same thing if I died and someone I loved got hold of my picture. I might even be more friendly on account of my death. Think of Harry's parents. They died when he was barely a year old. Depending on how aware photos are of their surroundings (and, given that the Potters had frieds like Hagrid and Lupin, I would say that those photos got a chance to do a lot of listening), it is entirely possible that they knew that Harry was being raised by the Dursleys, knew how miserable that would be, and wanted to show their love for their son as best they could. As they were pictures, all they could really do was smile at him and wave. But I don't think that the fact of being dead would stop them from doing what they could.
I'm not sure that photographs are that aware of things, but if they are, I don't think it's odd that they would still be so cheerful. They've had a long time to contemplate being dead. They've probably gotten over it by now.
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Hermy - Jan 5, 2005 8:37 pm (#73 of 144)
I agree that the people in the photographs know what happened to them. The portraits in Dumbledore's office are aware that they are not the current headmaster although the portrait was made at or soon after being headmaster. Phineas is aware of Sirius which is his great-great-grandson the last of the Blacks is dead.
Moody is talking to the photograph and the people are responding. If they didn't know they were dead he didn't mind telling them. "Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too, we only ever found bits of him...... shift aside there,"
Maybe Neville's parents will be able to give him a clue on how to save them.
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Aud Duck - Jan 6, 2005 12:36 pm (#74 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
If they didn't know they were dead he didn't mind telling them.
Good point there, Hermy.
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Maria Dunlavey - Jan 9, 2005 6:23 am (#75 of 144)
One thing I noticed, in respect to how complete the photo is, was that Gideon Prewett was mentioned as being in the photo, and it's mentioned that he and Fabian died like heroes, but Moody never says that Fabian is in the photo. It's pretty ridiculous to think that he wouldn't be part of the Order, so I doubt that the entire Order was present at the time.
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John Bumbledore - Jan 10, 2005 2:31 pm (#76 of 144)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Portraits are not Photographs
The portraits are said to be on Canvas or at least in a frame. To me this indicates they were painted portraits. This requires a substantially longer time investment for the subject as well as the painter.
This is in contrast to photographs which are taken more quickly. This could explain why Portraits talk, discuss, and move while photos only move.
(John) Bumbledore
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constant vigilance - Jan 12, 2005 8:21 am (#77 of 144)
art student
I don't believe all of the Order members were present when the photo was taken because I don't recall any mention of Mcgonagal or Hagrid. Considering these two were very involved in Harry's rescue and relocation I would have a hard time believing they weren't part of the Original Order.
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scoop2172000 - Jan 12, 2005 8:45 am (#78 of 144)
Excellent point, Bumbledore.
Adding my two knuts to your theory: a portrait usually (though not always) requires the cooperation of the subject, who must "sit" for the artist. Perhaps part of the subject's agreeing to cooperate in the making of the portrait comes the cooperation of infusing his/her personality into the finished product.
By contrast, photos can be taken without the consent of the subject -- indeed, they can be taken against the will of the subject, such as Harry being dragged into the photo op with Lockhart at Flourish and Blots.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jan 12, 2005 12:22 pm (#79 of 144)
No day but Today
The pictures of Lockhart were portraits, not photographs, which was why they would fix thier hair and things when someone walked by. Its the same for the ex-headmasters. The portraits have some semblance of a brain and are perfectly aware of whats going on. Photo's don't. The people in the photo that Moody showed Harry probably don't know they are dead. Thats why they looked happy. They don't know what's going on. Percy was probably told to leave by Arthur.
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Aud Duck - Jan 12, 2005 5:36 pm (#80 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
We don't know that photos don't know what's going on. It's possible, but it is not an assumption we can make.
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Choices - Jan 12, 2005 6:32 pm (#81 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"Percy was probably told to leave by Arthur".....
But, if Arthur knew enough to tell him to leave, why couldn't Percy have known enough to want to leave?
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Hermy - Jan 12, 2005 8:28 pm (#82 of 144)
Maybe the photo people are happy because the picture was finally found by Moody.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 12, 2005 8:59 pm (#83 of 144)
It's an old photo. Maybe the little photo-people were upset when they first heard about their demise, but have since gotten over it, and have defaulted back to their original attitudes. I doubt the picture people have very complex emotions.
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T Brightwater - Jan 13, 2005 7:01 am (#84 of 144)
constant vigilance, I thought Hagrid was in the photo - didn't Moody say something about how you couldn't miss him? (Haven't got the book here.)
It's possible that living people have some control over their photographic images, conscious or otherwise - I'm thinking of Harry's image pulling away from Lockhart. That would account for Percy leaving the Weasley family photo.
If this is true, it may signify that Peter wishes he were still in the Order
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Steve Newton - Jan 13, 2005 7:51 am (#85 of 144)
Librarian
T, I did a list of who was in the photograph back in post 23 and others added comments up to post 28 or so. No Hagrid sighting.
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Catherine - Jan 13, 2005 9:19 am (#86 of 144)
Canon Seeker
Steve, Hagrid was in the picture of the original Order. One of your lists includes him.
From Chapter 9 of OoP, Scholastic hardback, page 174: "...Caradoc Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body...Hagrid, of course, looks exactly the same as ever...
If I misunderstood yours last post, or anyone else's post, I apologize in advance. I just wanted to be precise.
Here's the link to Steve's list of Order members in Moody's photograph:
Steve Newton, "The Photograph Moody Showed Harry" #23, 23 Oct 2004 12:44 pm
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Steve Newton - Jan 13, 2005 9:35 am (#87 of 144)
Librarian
Wow, Catherine, I can't even read my own post. Thanks for the correction.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 6, 2005 12:27 pm (#88 of 144)
Is possible that the photo ended up being a liability for the order. In that it could have served as a visual guide for the Death Eaters much like wanted posters.
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Aud Duck - Feb 6, 2005 1:46 pm (#89 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
That's the main reason that I think a lot--or even most--of the members were left out of the photograph. Only people that were already open Dumbledore supporters would have considered it safe to be in the photo. It would have been pretty predictable that Moody, for instance, would be part of the Order.
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Choices - Feb 6, 2005 6:45 pm (#90 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But, if the photograph was just in Moody's private collection, how would any DE's see it? I'm sure Moody wouldn't just show it to anybody. Maybe he just carries it around to remind him of the friends and collegues he has lost because of Voldemort - reminds him why he is fighting - to keep more deaths from happening.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 9, 2005 1:59 pm (#91 of 144)
Choices, that raises the following question: Is it possible that more than one copy of the photograph exists? I agree that Moddy would not not show the photograph to any Death Eaters. But, the same cannot be said of Peter Pettigrew.
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Choices - Feb 9, 2005 7:00 pm (#92 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Nathan - Of course the possibility exists, but I just don't think it is likely. I have gone places and taken a photograph of a group of people and I don't come home and have bunches of copies made and pass them around. I don't think Moody would either, especially when the picture is of a secret group who need their identities kept secret. As paranoid as Moody is about dark wizards, I think he of all people would keep it to himself. If someone wanted to betray the group, they wouldn't have to have a photograph, they could just name names.
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librarian314 - Feb 11, 2005 10:01 am (#93 of 144)
Hey all!
I have the feeling that there were/may be other copies of the photo. It would help to know if the photo was staged or just a candid shot. If it was staged, then there's a chance that Moody took it himself and the camera was on a timer, and he made just one print for himself. I think though, if it were staged, more of those in the photo would have wanted a copy.
Oh the other hand, if it were a candid snap-shot, then Moody did not take the photo, as he is in it, sitting with Dumbledore, and my guess is that may be the only copy. Maybe one of the people who died soon after it was taken was the photographer and it was sitting on the roll of film in the camera. Moody had the film developed and when he saw this photo kept it to keep it out of others' hands.
Or maybe a copy of this photo fell into the wrong hands and the Death Eaters were using it as a check-list.
I don't think that Moody took the photo, but he never said who did.
I kind of hope we find out who the photographer was because this photo is definitely one worth more than a 1000 words! ;-)
*michelle the librarian**
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Aud Duck - Feb 19, 2005 8:59 pm (#94 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Even if it was a candid shot, there was likely someone in the group that said "Can I have a copy of that when you get it developed, Mad-Eye?" I've never been in a picture of that many people where someone didn't want a copy. I'm not saying everyone in the Order had a copy, but that probably one or two other people had one. This might be the only one left, of course.
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Good Evans - Feb 20, 2005 2:35 am (#95 of 144)
Practically perfect in every way
I always thought the photo was taken for prosterity (sp?) in that while we are all here - and all alive!! lets have a picture, weren't some people sitting down? and other standing?
I also assumed the "camera" was operated by magic so everyone could be in it.
I agree it is a risky thing to do, but Moody is careful (constant vigilence!!!) and despite his little mishap in GoF (but he was older then) I suspect DD had no problem with the photo being taken at the time and kept by moody.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 11, 2005 4:07 pm (#96 of 144)
When Moody shows Harry the photo he says that it is a photo of the original Order of the Phoenix. Now I developed an idea is it possible that there was at least one reformation of the Order between 1978 and 1982 in which new members were added to replace those members of the original order who were deceased or incapacitated and that a photo was taken of them as well.
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Aud Duck - Apr 3, 2005 1:42 pm (#97 of 144)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I'm not sure quite what Moody meant by "the original Order of the Phoenix." It could mean that it was a picture of the very first members of the Order, or just that it was of people who were in the Order the last time Voldemort was in power. And it is, of course, possible that there was a reformation during Voldemort War I. Would this make any difference in what information we can get from the photograph?
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Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Apr 27, 2005 9:52 pm (#98 of 144)
It seems to me that wizard photos "capture the moment" in a similar way that Muggle ones do, only in a deeper way. The people in the photos move around, but their personality and emotions stay exactly the same as the moment the photo was taken. That explains why Harry's photo self keeps walking out of the picture with Lockhart - because that's what Harry wanted to do at the time. Lockhart's photos primp and curl their hair because Lockhart was just as vain when the photos were taken as he always is. It also explains the happy, smiling faces of all those dead Order-members; the mood in the room is happy and cheerful, and the photo captures that, forever.
The one hole in this theory is the instance of Percy walking out; the only two possibilities I see are: 1) as other people have suggested, it was a recent picture - in my opinion, that must mean recent enough that the divisions and anger were already brewing. The Percy in the picture doesn't necessarily know that his real self has abandoned the family; he's just walked out of the photograph because Percy already felt like walking out at the time. Or, 2) JKR is just being a little inconsistent about photos.
Oh, one more possibility: (3) The spell used on the camera-film isn't consistent, or comes in different varieties, giving photo-people different awarenesses of what's going on in the real world.
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Tomoé - Apr 28, 2005 1:29 pm (#99 of 144)
Back in business
Moody was able to move the people around in his photograph, maybe Arthur asked photo Percy leace the frame.
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Moo4Freedom - Jun 5, 2005 7:53 pm (#100 of 144)
Ok, I'm new to the forum so bear with me.
This is how I see it. I think Astra was right about therebeing different types of magic pictures or in other words ways to develop them. There seem to be 3 levels of picture complexity.
1.Painted Portraits -These seem to retain not the moment like a snapshot, but the personality of the subject. It mimics how the person would react to the different situations put before it. Sirius's mother's portrait also had knowledge in a sense. She recognized Sirius and knows how he is a traitor. The Fat Lady also seems to have a memory. She knows who isn't in the house and won't let them in even if they have the correct password. This shows that they are complex piece of magic and therefore not easily created unless by a skilled wizard. The former headmasters' portraits are another example.
2.Emotional Snapshots - This seems to be the type of photo that Moody showed Harry. The people's feelings at the moment the picture was taken were captured in the picture. Much like the picture taken of Harry with Lockhart. Trapping emotions might not be too terribly difficult, but it seems to require a bit of skill. Colin was able to make it simply because he was in a school stuffed with magical professors. I can't remember who he said helped him. If Moody had produced the picture he showed Harry then it would be understandible it was the emotion capturing kind. Moody is a skilled wizard.
3. Moving Pictures - Cleary the above two types of pictures move. However these are the most simple to make. The family picture of the Weasleys is one of these. The Weasley's didn't know how to make the emotional picture so they did the best they could. The strictly moving pictures have no emotions. In the sense that they do not exhibit the emotions of the moment of picture taken. They merely stay for the most part, in the position they were in when the picture was taken. That is until instructed to otherwise or if they observe something that makes them react. Photo Percy in the family photo saw the real Percy leave so he left. It stated in the book that he stomped out of the family photo. Another example is the Viktor Krum pictures from the camp site at the World Cup. Viktor being, well a quiet person only blinks and scowls. His reaction was most likely the scowling at the Irish fans. The Krum model seems to have a similiar charm. He scowls at Ron's shamrock.
That's my theory.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
The Photograph Moody Showed Harry (Post 101 to 144)
Elanor Sun May 29, 2011 1:47 am
lemonbalm&bees - Jun 5, 2005 10:11 pm (#101 of 144)
"This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything." ~D.A.
I really like this observation of yours, M4F. It's great that you picked up on the differences between paintings and photographs. I'm still a bit confused about your differentiation between emotional snapshots and moving pictures. Are you saying that characters in moving pictures can change their pattern of behavior based on the circumstances surrounding them, but that emotional snapshots only reflect the feelings of the subject at the time that the foto was taken? That's the best interpretation of your theory that I can come up with.
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dizzy lizzy - Jun 5, 2005 10:45 pm (#102 of 144)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
I rather like the theory too, M4F. It gives me somthing else to think about. I'm fascinated by the pictures. Both paintings and photo's and the roles they play in the story.
We haven't seen the last of them.
Lizzy
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 7:55 am (#103 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Wonderful theory, M4F. Now you've given me something else to be confused about...lol
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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 10:18 am (#104 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Moo4Freedom - "The Fat Lady also seems to have a memory. She knows who isn't in the house and won't let them in even if they have the correct password."
But remember, she let in Sirius Black because he had the password and he certainly wasn't in Gryffindor House at that time and wasn't supposed to get in. That was a serious lapse of memory.
Moo4Freedom - "I can't remember who he said helped him."
Colin said a kid in his dorm told him what potion to use to develope the pictures so they would move.
Moo4Freedom - "The Weasley's didn't know how to make the emotional picture"
The Weasleys should know more about making pictures than Colin. They have been wizards for ages and Colin is the son of a Muggle milk man and some kid tells him how to develope the pictures to make them move. I would think the Weasleys would have much more knowledge than Colin about making "emotional" pictures.
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2005 10:26 am (#105 of 144)
Librarian
Actually, the Fat Lady (What could her name be?) didn't let Sirius in. That was the estimable Sir Cadogan.
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 10:26 am (#106 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Choices, I just wonder if the Fat Lady let Sirius in because he was in Gryffindor when he was at school. Maybe she just recognizes Gryffindor's in general??? I'm just grabbing straws here...
Edit: Cross-posted with Steve...
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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 10:39 am (#107 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Uh-Oh - Steve you are so right. I had forgotten that the Fat Lady had not yet returned to guard the Gruffindor entrance. Thanks for pointing that out. :-) Anyway, the portrait would let anyone in who had the password.
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 11:13 am (#108 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
I had forgotten that too...
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2005 11:39 am (#109 of 144)
Librarian
Sir Cadogan being a totally nut case I wouldn't look at anything that he did as precedent setting.
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Moo4Freedom - Jun 6, 2005 12:39 pm (#110 of 144)
Hm. The only thing I think of to defend the emotional pictures for Colin was either the other student had gone to a Profesor allready or Colin lied. That seems plausible if you remember how much Colin wants to impress Harry. He might have fudged who helped him a bit to seem more impressive to Harry.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Jun 6, 2005 7:03 pm (#111 of 144)
The Weasleys should know more about making pictures than Colin. They have been wizards for ages and Colin is the son of a Muggle milk man and some kid tells him how to develope the pictures to make them move. I would think the Weasleys would have much more knowledge than Colin about making "emotional" pictures. --Choices
I agree that the Weasleys would probably know what kind of potion would make "emotional" pictures, but I also think that the potion used to make those pictures would probably be more expensive than the regular (well regular in the wizarding sense, anyway) kind that only makes the pictures move. Since the Weasleys are not exceptionally wealthy, they might not have been able to afford the potion for "emotional" pictures.
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John Bumbledore - Jun 20, 2005 1:39 pm (#112 of 144)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
I always assumed that there was a wizarding equivalent to Kodak, Polaroid, etc. and not that each wizard or family had to develop and print their own photographs. It would be interesting to find out more from Jo about such details. If we consider the wizarding world to be a magical parallel to the muggle world, most casual muggle photographers would (and still do) send their film to a company to be developed and printed. Colin may well be a hobbyist that develops and prints his own photographs, but the author does not address this directly.
Considering the secrecy that the Order must maintain, it is more likely that another member took the photo and both developed and printed the photo that Moody shows to Harry. I would think that Moody most likely demanded the film and prints so that it would not get into the wrong hands, maintaining "Constant Vigilance!"
One question I have is that if multiple prints of a photo are made, then if the son tells his image to leave his copy of the photo (like before he buries it in storage) then does the son's image also leave other prints that other family members may have?
<)B^D= John Bumbledore
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irish flutterby - Jul 26, 2005 4:41 pm (#113 of 144)
I have another question related to the picture. JKR mentioned, either in her interview with Mugglenet and TLC, or on her site under FAQ's, that the Weasley's didn't know Sirius before he was arrested/ the last time Voldy was around. However, we all know that he was in the picture with the OOP, so are we to assume that Mr. and Mrs. Weasley weren't involved with OOP even though the Prewett brothers (Molly's brothers) did help with OOP.
thanks
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 26, 2005 9:03 pm (#114 of 144)
Brandi, at the time of the first war with Voldemort it is possible that neither Arthur or Molly was involved in the business of the Order because, at the time the photo was taken the Weasleys had five children under the age of ten at home, So it is entirely possible that Arthur and Molly had no involvement.
The time frame that photo was taken between June 1978 and October 1981 can be determined because, the Marauders and Lily are included in the photo which would have been less likely to occur if they had been students.
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irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 11:36 am (#115 of 144)
Wow.
I love reading stuff off of sites like this one. It really puts perspective in my knowledge of Harry's World. I really enjoy the books, but it's obvious that you guys just love the whole Harry Potter realm. Hopefully, through this site I will become more familiar with it as well.
Thanks for the info.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 27, 2005 1:43 pm (#116 of 144)
Brandi, you are welcome. If you would like some excellent reading material on the Order of the Phoenix and the Weasley's the Which Wizard of the Wizarding World section of the Lexicon has some excellent essays amd other meaterial on the Weasley's.
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Mattew Bates - Aug 2, 2005 10:15 pm (#117 of 144)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I think this picture gives us an enormous clue as to how book seven will progress. Dorcas Meadowes' name has come up over on the Horcrux discussion, because Voldemort killed her personally . This may be a clue that she was important enough of a target for Voldie to make a horcrux out of her murder. If that is the case, then perhaps this is the clue that will lead to the Ravenclaw horcrux.
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Finn BV - Oct 2, 2005 6:55 pm (#118 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ok, did a quick search and couldn't find the answer to this: Do we know who took the photo Moody showed Harry? Is there a wizarding equivalent of self-timer? Perhaps it is an Order member we haven't met/we don't know…?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 4, 2005 7:16 am (#119 of 144)
FinnBV, the idenmtity of the person who took the photo is a mystery.
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Esther Rose - Oct 4, 2005 7:24 am (#120 of 144)
Would a bunch of skilled wizards and witches really need someone to physically hold up a camera and take a picture?
Wingardium Leviosa!
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Finn BV - Oct 4, 2005 6:13 pm (#121 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks, Nathan.
Esther, that's something to think about, which is why I asked if there were a wizarding equivalent of self-timer/other means of getting the camera to take a picture by itself.
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Choices - Oct 5, 2005 9:37 am (#122 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
What exactly would be the importance of knowing how or who took the picture?
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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 10:02 am (#123 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Perhaps the person who took the photo is another Order member, which may turn out to be significant (or not). If we find out the picture was taken by some means of Wizarding-"self-timer," then it will down the observation. But if there is no Wizarding equivalent, or we find out it was taken by a person, it would be very interesting to know who else is "in the picture" (no pun intended ).
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K Stahl - Oct 5, 2005 4:34 pm (#124 of 144)
Wizards do not need a special self-timer. They do not even need a tripod. One could position the camera while another could cause the camera to take the picture. After all, if a potato can be made to peal itself, why couldn't a camera be made to shoot itself?
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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 5:42 pm (#125 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
No, I understand that, I just wanted to know if, while there may very well be a self-timer, was it used? Perhaps it was a silly question, but it is one of those "things."
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 6, 2005 12:24 am (#126 of 144)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"why couldn't a camera be made to shoot itself?"
Now that was an interesting choice of words...
...toddles off chuckling to self...
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Finn BV - Oct 6, 2005 5:07 am (#127 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
LOL TBE!
Ok back on topic: You must admit, it's an interesting question…
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Detail Seeker - Oct 7, 2005 11:36 am (#128 of 144)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Didn´t they have problems with the self-stirring cauldron and the self-spelling wand ?
So, the self-targeting camera might be a problem, too.
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irish flutterby - Oct 9, 2005 4:39 pm (#129 of 144)
I understand your point Finn. If, indeed, there was another wizard..shooting...the picture, who was it? Aberforth, another DE, maybe? Good thought. And, yes, I do believe I remember problems with self acting magical tools. Seems a camera might cause a bit of a bump, too. How would it know what to focus on, etc.?
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Finn BV - Oct 9, 2005 5:46 pm (#130 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, it wasn't Aberforth because he was in the picture…
Yes, Detail Seeker, good point! Magic can go wrong in all sorts of instances… it doesn't do everything too, I remember a quote JKR said about having to put limits on magic, for one, you can't make people return from the dead. Why not do something silly like not allow self-timing cameras?
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irish flutterby - Oct 9, 2005 6:02 pm (#131 of 144)
***GASP****
An error? Me? No!
I agree. If you can't allow something as trivial as raising someone from the dead via magic, why not ban "self-shooting" camaras?
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Honour - Oct 21, 2005 1:44 am (#132 of 144)
It seems to be generally accepted that Minerva was a member of the Order, but as she was not mentioned by Madeye as being in this photograph I wondered if (a) she really was an original member or (b) maybe that it was she who took the photo?
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irish flutterby - Oct 24, 2005 8:40 am (#133 of 144)
On the other hand, Madeye would know that Harry was aware who Minerva is and that she is a member, so he may have just skipped referring ot her.
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Honour - Oct 24, 2005 5:35 pm (#134 of 144)
I don't think that is the answer irish flutterby, Harry knew DD and Madeye mentioned him, even mentioned Aberforth, as well as the Marauders, Harry knew most of them either by sight or reputation. I am not sure if Minerva is actually an Order member, with the comings and goings at 12 Grimauld, we saw the Order reporting in, even Severus and DD came and went, but no Minerva and diffinately no Filius? Is this why she is out of the loop? by the end of HBP? Curious ...
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Choices - Oct 24, 2005 6:31 pm (#135 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Actually we did see McGonagall come to 12 Grimmauld Place. Harry even remarked about her being dressed in Muggle clothes. She is definitely in the Order. Check out page 118 of the Scholastic hardback edition - chapter The Ancient and Most Noble House of Black.
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Honour - Oct 25, 2005 12:36 am (#136 of 144)
Thank you Choices, its been awhile since I have read OOTP, have started a re-read am currently in the middle of GOF.
Which still doesn't explain why DD did not trust Minerva enough to fill her in on the happenings in HBP - nor does it explain about Filius, as I have said I am in the middle of a re-read if someone knows where it states that he is an Order member please let me know Ta Thanks guys ...
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Choices - Oct 25, 2005 10:58 am (#137 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do not recall Flitwick ever being mentioned as an Order member. He was not in the photograph and we never saw him at 12 Grimmauld Place.
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haymoni - Oct 25, 2005 11:14 am (#138 of 144)
Remember in Godfather II when Michael wouldn't tell Tom everything because he had to protect him?
Maybe Dumbledore wanted to protect Minerva. If she knew too much, she would end up carrying an extra burden - being in charge of Hogwarts is tough enough. By not knowing what was going on, she would never be able to reveal anything.
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frogface - Nov 15, 2005 3:08 am (#139 of 144)
I agree Haymoni. Also Dumbledore my have suspected his death was approaching, and so would have wanted someone he could trust ready to take up his mantle at Hogwarts who wasn't going to be in the immediate cross fire. (BTW I LOVE those films...except the third one...eurgh).
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irish flutterby - Mar 15, 2006 7:00 pm (#140 of 144)
Another option is this. She could be a horrible occlumense. Maybe DD is REALLY protecting her. He couldn't tell some people things because if they were taken by the DE's, they could be in danger and place the Order in jeopardy.
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Nathan Henderson - Apr 1, 2006 7:37 am (#141 of 144)
I had an idea on when the photo was taken that as far as I can find doesn't contridict canon (i.e. this is an idea for a fanfic I had that seems to work with canon):
The photo was taken during the '77/'78 school year (over Christmas Break?) when the Marauders & Lily had finally become old enough to join the Order. It was taken after they were officially inducted in.
Dorcas Meadows was the Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher that year working with/for Dumbledore to prepare students for the war against Voldemort. Of course thanks to the curse, Dorcas was doomed & Voldemort killed her personally before the year was out.
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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 20, 2006 6:30 am (#142 of 144)
Back to Lupin's statement that the Order was outnumbered 20-1, again, if no one minds. I think the statement has got to be an exaggeration, even though Voldemort is turning out to have once had more forces than we had heard about originally. But it’s still an overstatement in my opinion.
The Order of the Phoenix consists of a couple of dozen people now, as far as I can see. Maybe there were more than that originally. If the picture does show 28, I accept that. I also accept that they had a high casualty rate. But I still don't see more than a couple of dozen either then or now.
Voldemort had maybe about 50-60 Death Eaters during the first war. He could also call on the Giants, although there probably weren't that many more of them around either than there are now, and he might have had some werewolves at that time, too, but they are only at their best fighting form once a month, aren't they? Even if we are counting the people who say they were under the Imperious Curse, (and I truly wonder how much good they were in an actual fight) I don't get 20-1. The only way 20-1 makes sense to me is if, during the first war, the Order members were being attacked in ambushes, where you had one or two Order members attacked by larger groups of Death Eaters at a time. THEN they could have been outnumbered 20-1.
I do agree that the Order is better off now than they probably were during the first war. Voldemort certainly doesn't have the same number of forces this time, even if you add in the dementors, which I'm not sure we should do. They might be working for themselves, not just for him. We're jsut assuming they left Azkaban to join him. They might have just left because they wanted to leave. He definitely has fewer Death Eaters, judging by how many showed up in the cemetery when he came back. And some of the ones we saw that night have been captured or killed.
So whether the 20-1 is right depends on how you look at it, however, it seems likely the Order is better off now than then.
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haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 6:49 am (#143 of 144)
I think the 20-1 was an exaggeration also.
Lupin's point was that they were outnumbered.
The Order was formed because they didn't know who they could trust at the Ministry.
At least now there is some assurance that Rufus is at least TRYING to round up Voldy's followers.
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irish flutterby - Apr 23, 2006 5:13 pm (#144 of 144)
Rufus might be trying, albeit barely successfully, but there are those who are in the ministry that are not on our side. They still don't know who they can trust.
"This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything." ~D.A.
I really like this observation of yours, M4F. It's great that you picked up on the differences between paintings and photographs. I'm still a bit confused about your differentiation between emotional snapshots and moving pictures. Are you saying that characters in moving pictures can change their pattern of behavior based on the circumstances surrounding them, but that emotional snapshots only reflect the feelings of the subject at the time that the foto was taken? That's the best interpretation of your theory that I can come up with.
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dizzy lizzy - Jun 5, 2005 10:45 pm (#102 of 144)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
I rather like the theory too, M4F. It gives me somthing else to think about. I'm fascinated by the pictures. Both paintings and photo's and the roles they play in the story.
We haven't seen the last of them.
Lizzy
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 7:55 am (#103 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Wonderful theory, M4F. Now you've given me something else to be confused about...lol
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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 10:18 am (#104 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Moo4Freedom - "The Fat Lady also seems to have a memory. She knows who isn't in the house and won't let them in even if they have the correct password."
But remember, she let in Sirius Black because he had the password and he certainly wasn't in Gryffindor House at that time and wasn't supposed to get in. That was a serious lapse of memory.
Moo4Freedom - "I can't remember who he said helped him."
Colin said a kid in his dorm told him what potion to use to develope the pictures so they would move.
Moo4Freedom - "The Weasley's didn't know how to make the emotional picture"
The Weasleys should know more about making pictures than Colin. They have been wizards for ages and Colin is the son of a Muggle milk man and some kid tells him how to develope the pictures to make them move. I would think the Weasleys would have much more knowledge than Colin about making "emotional" pictures.
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2005 10:26 am (#105 of 144)
Librarian
Actually, the Fat Lady (What could her name be?) didn't let Sirius in. That was the estimable Sir Cadogan.
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 10:26 am (#106 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Choices, I just wonder if the Fat Lady let Sirius in because he was in Gryffindor when he was at school. Maybe she just recognizes Gryffindor's in general??? I'm just grabbing straws here...
Edit: Cross-posted with Steve...
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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 10:39 am (#107 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Uh-Oh - Steve you are so right. I had forgotten that the Fat Lady had not yet returned to guard the Gruffindor entrance. Thanks for pointing that out. :-) Anyway, the portrait would let anyone in who had the password.
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applepie - Jun 6, 2005 11:13 am (#108 of 144)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
I had forgotten that too...
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2005 11:39 am (#109 of 144)
Librarian
Sir Cadogan being a totally nut case I wouldn't look at anything that he did as precedent setting.
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Moo4Freedom - Jun 6, 2005 12:39 pm (#110 of 144)
Hm. The only thing I think of to defend the emotional pictures for Colin was either the other student had gone to a Profesor allready or Colin lied. That seems plausible if you remember how much Colin wants to impress Harry. He might have fudged who helped him a bit to seem more impressive to Harry.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Jun 6, 2005 7:03 pm (#111 of 144)
The Weasleys should know more about making pictures than Colin. They have been wizards for ages and Colin is the son of a Muggle milk man and some kid tells him how to develope the pictures to make them move. I would think the Weasleys would have much more knowledge than Colin about making "emotional" pictures. --Choices
I agree that the Weasleys would probably know what kind of potion would make "emotional" pictures, but I also think that the potion used to make those pictures would probably be more expensive than the regular (well regular in the wizarding sense, anyway) kind that only makes the pictures move. Since the Weasleys are not exceptionally wealthy, they might not have been able to afford the potion for "emotional" pictures.
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John Bumbledore - Jun 20, 2005 1:39 pm (#112 of 144)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
I always assumed that there was a wizarding equivalent to Kodak, Polaroid, etc. and not that each wizard or family had to develop and print their own photographs. It would be interesting to find out more from Jo about such details. If we consider the wizarding world to be a magical parallel to the muggle world, most casual muggle photographers would (and still do) send their film to a company to be developed and printed. Colin may well be a hobbyist that develops and prints his own photographs, but the author does not address this directly.
Considering the secrecy that the Order must maintain, it is more likely that another member took the photo and both developed and printed the photo that Moody shows to Harry. I would think that Moody most likely demanded the film and prints so that it would not get into the wrong hands, maintaining "Constant Vigilance!"
One question I have is that if multiple prints of a photo are made, then if the son tells his image to leave his copy of the photo (like before he buries it in storage) then does the son's image also leave other prints that other family members may have?
<)B^D= John Bumbledore
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irish flutterby - Jul 26, 2005 4:41 pm (#113 of 144)
I have another question related to the picture. JKR mentioned, either in her interview with Mugglenet and TLC, or on her site under FAQ's, that the Weasley's didn't know Sirius before he was arrested/ the last time Voldy was around. However, we all know that he was in the picture with the OOP, so are we to assume that Mr. and Mrs. Weasley weren't involved with OOP even though the Prewett brothers (Molly's brothers) did help with OOP.
thanks
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 26, 2005 9:03 pm (#114 of 144)
Brandi, at the time of the first war with Voldemort it is possible that neither Arthur or Molly was involved in the business of the Order because, at the time the photo was taken the Weasleys had five children under the age of ten at home, So it is entirely possible that Arthur and Molly had no involvement.
The time frame that photo was taken between June 1978 and October 1981 can be determined because, the Marauders and Lily are included in the photo which would have been less likely to occur if they had been students.
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irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 11:36 am (#115 of 144)
Wow.
I love reading stuff off of sites like this one. It really puts perspective in my knowledge of Harry's World. I really enjoy the books, but it's obvious that you guys just love the whole Harry Potter realm. Hopefully, through this site I will become more familiar with it as well.
Thanks for the info.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 27, 2005 1:43 pm (#116 of 144)
Brandi, you are welcome. If you would like some excellent reading material on the Order of the Phoenix and the Weasley's the Which Wizard of the Wizarding World section of the Lexicon has some excellent essays amd other meaterial on the Weasley's.
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Mattew Bates - Aug 2, 2005 10:15 pm (#117 of 144)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I think this picture gives us an enormous clue as to how book seven will progress. Dorcas Meadowes' name has come up over on the Horcrux discussion, because Voldemort killed her personally . This may be a clue that she was important enough of a target for Voldie to make a horcrux out of her murder. If that is the case, then perhaps this is the clue that will lead to the Ravenclaw horcrux.
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Finn BV - Oct 2, 2005 6:55 pm (#118 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ok, did a quick search and couldn't find the answer to this: Do we know who took the photo Moody showed Harry? Is there a wizarding equivalent of self-timer? Perhaps it is an Order member we haven't met/we don't know…?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 4, 2005 7:16 am (#119 of 144)
FinnBV, the idenmtity of the person who took the photo is a mystery.
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Esther Rose - Oct 4, 2005 7:24 am (#120 of 144)
Would a bunch of skilled wizards and witches really need someone to physically hold up a camera and take a picture?
Wingardium Leviosa!
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Finn BV - Oct 4, 2005 6:13 pm (#121 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks, Nathan.
Esther, that's something to think about, which is why I asked if there were a wizarding equivalent of self-timer/other means of getting the camera to take a picture by itself.
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Choices - Oct 5, 2005 9:37 am (#122 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
What exactly would be the importance of knowing how or who took the picture?
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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 10:02 am (#123 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Perhaps the person who took the photo is another Order member, which may turn out to be significant (or not). If we find out the picture was taken by some means of Wizarding-"self-timer," then it will down the observation. But if there is no Wizarding equivalent, or we find out it was taken by a person, it would be very interesting to know who else is "in the picture" (no pun intended ).
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K Stahl - Oct 5, 2005 4:34 pm (#124 of 144)
Wizards do not need a special self-timer. They do not even need a tripod. One could position the camera while another could cause the camera to take the picture. After all, if a potato can be made to peal itself, why couldn't a camera be made to shoot itself?
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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 5:42 pm (#125 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
No, I understand that, I just wanted to know if, while there may very well be a self-timer, was it used? Perhaps it was a silly question, but it is one of those "things."
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 6, 2005 12:24 am (#126 of 144)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"why couldn't a camera be made to shoot itself?"
Now that was an interesting choice of words...
...toddles off chuckling to self...
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Finn BV - Oct 6, 2005 5:07 am (#127 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
LOL TBE!
Ok back on topic: You must admit, it's an interesting question…
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Detail Seeker - Oct 7, 2005 11:36 am (#128 of 144)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Didn´t they have problems with the self-stirring cauldron and the self-spelling wand ?
So, the self-targeting camera might be a problem, too.
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irish flutterby - Oct 9, 2005 4:39 pm (#129 of 144)
I understand your point Finn. If, indeed, there was another wizard..shooting...the picture, who was it? Aberforth, another DE, maybe? Good thought. And, yes, I do believe I remember problems with self acting magical tools. Seems a camera might cause a bit of a bump, too. How would it know what to focus on, etc.?
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Finn BV - Oct 9, 2005 5:46 pm (#130 of 144)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, it wasn't Aberforth because he was in the picture…
Yes, Detail Seeker, good point! Magic can go wrong in all sorts of instances… it doesn't do everything too, I remember a quote JKR said about having to put limits on magic, for one, you can't make people return from the dead. Why not do something silly like not allow self-timing cameras?
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irish flutterby - Oct 9, 2005 6:02 pm (#131 of 144)
***GASP****
An error? Me? No!
I agree. If you can't allow something as trivial as raising someone from the dead via magic, why not ban "self-shooting" camaras?
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Honour - Oct 21, 2005 1:44 am (#132 of 144)
It seems to be generally accepted that Minerva was a member of the Order, but as she was not mentioned by Madeye as being in this photograph I wondered if (a) she really was an original member or (b) maybe that it was she who took the photo?
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irish flutterby - Oct 24, 2005 8:40 am (#133 of 144)
On the other hand, Madeye would know that Harry was aware who Minerva is and that she is a member, so he may have just skipped referring ot her.
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Honour - Oct 24, 2005 5:35 pm (#134 of 144)
I don't think that is the answer irish flutterby, Harry knew DD and Madeye mentioned him, even mentioned Aberforth, as well as the Marauders, Harry knew most of them either by sight or reputation. I am not sure if Minerva is actually an Order member, with the comings and goings at 12 Grimauld, we saw the Order reporting in, even Severus and DD came and went, but no Minerva and diffinately no Filius? Is this why she is out of the loop? by the end of HBP? Curious ...
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Choices - Oct 24, 2005 6:31 pm (#135 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Actually we did see McGonagall come to 12 Grimmauld Place. Harry even remarked about her being dressed in Muggle clothes. She is definitely in the Order. Check out page 118 of the Scholastic hardback edition - chapter The Ancient and Most Noble House of Black.
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Honour - Oct 25, 2005 12:36 am (#136 of 144)
Thank you Choices, its been awhile since I have read OOTP, have started a re-read am currently in the middle of GOF.
Which still doesn't explain why DD did not trust Minerva enough to fill her in on the happenings in HBP - nor does it explain about Filius, as I have said I am in the middle of a re-read if someone knows where it states that he is an Order member please let me know Ta Thanks guys ...
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Choices - Oct 25, 2005 10:58 am (#137 of 144)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do not recall Flitwick ever being mentioned as an Order member. He was not in the photograph and we never saw him at 12 Grimmauld Place.
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haymoni - Oct 25, 2005 11:14 am (#138 of 144)
Remember in Godfather II when Michael wouldn't tell Tom everything because he had to protect him?
Maybe Dumbledore wanted to protect Minerva. If she knew too much, she would end up carrying an extra burden - being in charge of Hogwarts is tough enough. By not knowing what was going on, she would never be able to reveal anything.
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frogface - Nov 15, 2005 3:08 am (#139 of 144)
I agree Haymoni. Also Dumbledore my have suspected his death was approaching, and so would have wanted someone he could trust ready to take up his mantle at Hogwarts who wasn't going to be in the immediate cross fire. (BTW I LOVE those films...except the third one...eurgh).
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irish flutterby - Mar 15, 2006 7:00 pm (#140 of 144)
Another option is this. She could be a horrible occlumense. Maybe DD is REALLY protecting her. He couldn't tell some people things because if they were taken by the DE's, they could be in danger and place the Order in jeopardy.
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Nathan Henderson - Apr 1, 2006 7:37 am (#141 of 144)
I had an idea on when the photo was taken that as far as I can find doesn't contridict canon (i.e. this is an idea for a fanfic I had that seems to work with canon):
The photo was taken during the '77/'78 school year (over Christmas Break?) when the Marauders & Lily had finally become old enough to join the Order. It was taken after they were officially inducted in.
Dorcas Meadows was the Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher that year working with/for Dumbledore to prepare students for the war against Voldemort. Of course thanks to the curse, Dorcas was doomed & Voldemort killed her personally before the year was out.
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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 20, 2006 6:30 am (#142 of 144)
Back to Lupin's statement that the Order was outnumbered 20-1, again, if no one minds. I think the statement has got to be an exaggeration, even though Voldemort is turning out to have once had more forces than we had heard about originally. But it’s still an overstatement in my opinion.
The Order of the Phoenix consists of a couple of dozen people now, as far as I can see. Maybe there were more than that originally. If the picture does show 28, I accept that. I also accept that they had a high casualty rate. But I still don't see more than a couple of dozen either then or now.
Voldemort had maybe about 50-60 Death Eaters during the first war. He could also call on the Giants, although there probably weren't that many more of them around either than there are now, and he might have had some werewolves at that time, too, but they are only at their best fighting form once a month, aren't they? Even if we are counting the people who say they were under the Imperious Curse, (and I truly wonder how much good they were in an actual fight) I don't get 20-1. The only way 20-1 makes sense to me is if, during the first war, the Order members were being attacked in ambushes, where you had one or two Order members attacked by larger groups of Death Eaters at a time. THEN they could have been outnumbered 20-1.
I do agree that the Order is better off now than they probably were during the first war. Voldemort certainly doesn't have the same number of forces this time, even if you add in the dementors, which I'm not sure we should do. They might be working for themselves, not just for him. We're jsut assuming they left Azkaban to join him. They might have just left because they wanted to leave. He definitely has fewer Death Eaters, judging by how many showed up in the cemetery when he came back. And some of the ones we saw that night have been captured or killed.
So whether the 20-1 is right depends on how you look at it, however, it seems likely the Order is better off now than then.
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haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 6:49 am (#143 of 144)
I think the 20-1 was an exaggeration also.
Lupin's point was that they were outnumbered.
The Order was formed because they didn't know who they could trust at the Ministry.
At least now there is some assurance that Rufus is at least TRYING to round up Voldy's followers.
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irish flutterby - Apr 23, 2006 5:13 pm (#144 of 144)
Rufus might be trying, albeit barely successfully, but there are those who are in the ministry that are not on our side. They still don't know who they can trust.
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