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Emmeline Vance
Potteraholic Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:42 pm
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic
Soul Search - Jan 26, 2007 11:50 am
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 6, 2007 2:04 am
We first meet Emmeline Vance in OotP, "The Advanced Guard." She is described as "a stately looking witch in an emerald-green shawl." She makes no comments. She flies on a broom, guarding Harry as they leave Privet Drive. (I say this is the first time we meet her, but that "emerald-green shawl" seems a bit familiar.)
Moody also pointed out Emmeline in the picture of the original Order of the Phoenix he showed Harry in OotP, "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley."
Next, Fudge mentions "the Bones and Vance murders" in HBP, "the Other Minister." Later, Fudge says "Those murders were not the work of Muggles." The Prime Minister says, of Emmeline Vance's murder, "it happened just around the corner from here, as a matter of fact."
We also learn of Herbert Chorley, a junior minister, who "... has clearly reacted to a poorly performed Imperius Curse." (Scrimgeour in "The Other Minister.")
In HBP, "Spinner's End," Snape relates to Bellatrix and Narcissa: "the Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ... ."
In HBP, "The Lighting Struck Tower," Dumbledore says to Draco "... we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine." This is said with conviction, like he speaks from direct experience.
There seems to be too many, seemingly unrelated, incidents for them all to be just there for local color. I am thinking that all these mentions of Emmeline Vance and, seemingly, unrelated incidents, actually are related and are back-story for "Deathly Hallows."
Emmeline Vance was in the original Order and survived. She must be a capable witch. She was still in the Order, and performed tasks for Dumbledore. Among her tasks was guarding the Prime Minister or something related. I got the impression that Shacklebolt was new to his job there, so maybe Emmeline was in the front office position that Shacklebolt had in "The Other Minister." Anyway, something along those lines.
For some reason, a Death Eater tried to Imperius Herbert Chorley. Why I can't say, but WHO might be interesting. What Death Eater could only poorly perform an Imperius Curse? Most Death Eaters should be quite good at it; it is their stock in trade. How about a NEW Death Eater ... Draco! Draco was given a practice/proof-of-loyalty task by Voldemort. (He later does a better job with Madam Rosmerta.)
Whatever was going on with Chorley drew the attention of Emmeline Vance. She was "captured and murdered." Who did the murder? Draco?
Now, we have Snape saying he gave the Dark Lord information that led to the "capture and murder of Emmeline Vance." This doesn't sound good for Snape, if he is really on Dumbledore's side.
But, I think there is a scenario that fits the canon, showing Snape really is on Dumbledore's side, and that Draco is not a murderer.
Voldemort gives Draco a proof-of-loyalty task that involves putting Herbert Chorley under the Imperius Curse and killing anyone who gets in his way. Snape learns of this, and conveys this to Dumbledore. Dumbledore and Snape are worried about Draco; they don't want him to be hurt, or caught. (Which was probably Voldemort's intention, by the way.) They, especially, don't want Draco to become a murderer.
Dumbledore comes up with a plan so that it will appear that Draco performed his assigned task, including killing Emmeline Vance, but Emmeline will be secreted away and hidden, instead. Dumbledore gives Snape information to feed back to Voldemort or Draco to set it all up.
Draco performs his task (poorly on Chorley,) corners Emmeline Vance, and (thinks) he has killed her. Voldemort is pleased with Draco, he passed his first test. Voldemort is also pleased with Snape, he gave information that caused the death of a member of the order.
But, Snape is really loyal to Dumbledore and Draco is not a killer.
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Emmeline Vance (posts #1 to #33)
Potteraholic Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:43 pm
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 26, 2007 12:02 pm (#1 of 33)
Soul Search, this is an interesting idea, if Dumbledore has hidden Emmeline Vance in a safe house. It would explain Dumbledore's comment to Draco on the tower about hiding and protecting him because, the comment does not seem to be applicable to Igor Karkaroff who Lupin asserts has been murdered.
haymoni - Jan 26, 2007 12:33 pm (#2 of 33)
When I heard Snape make that comment "It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ... ." I wondered if he had actually told Voldy anything at all.
Choices - Jan 26, 2007 5:55 pm (#3 of 33)
I have just one question - why? We know virtually nothing about Vance. What would make her so important in the plot that Dumbledore would fake her murder and hide her? Wouldn't it have been mentioned in the papers that she was thought to have been murdered, but no body was ever found if Dumbledore is hiding her? Are we to assume that every person in the book who goes missing is being hidden by Dumbledore? No, I think Vance is really dead, the authorities have her body and she is not being hidden. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :-)
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 26, 2007 9:55 pm (#4 of 33)
Stick to your guns Choices, I'm right behind you.
Mickey
Soul Search - Jan 27, 2007 6:26 am (#5 of 33)
A dead Emmeline Vance doesn't fit and has some momentous implications.
Given Snape's claim to Bellatrix: "It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ... ."
If we assume "Snape is Evil," then Snape caused the death of a member of the Order, and is boasting about it. Dumbledore has other spies; he will learn of it, revealing Snape’s evil nature. Doesn't make sense.
If Snape is good, then he, perhaps with Dumbledore's okay, sacrificed a member of the Order to win a few points with Voldemort. Doesn't make sense and goes against both Snape's and Dumbledore's nature.
Snape lied, he really didn't have anything to do with Emmeline Vance's death and is just claiming his involvement. Risky. Bellatrix would call him out and damage his credibility. So, Snape did give information that led to her "death."
The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked.
Even that presents some problems. Faking her death had to have more reasons than Snape winning a few points with Voldemort. The Herbert Chorley > Imperius Curse, Madam Rosmerta > Imperius Curse, Aunt Bellatrix teaching Draco Occlumency, Draco is new death eater, canon hints seem to direct possible scenarios to Draco.
Choices - Jan 27, 2007 10:27 am (#6 of 33)
Soul Search - "The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked."
I have to disagree. Perhaps Snape unknowingly gave information to Voldemort that did result in Vance's death, just as he did with James and Lily. He gave Voldemort half the prophesy and it did result in James and Lily being killed and attempted murder on Harry. Could Dumbledore be hiding James and Lily as well as Vance? Food for thought....????? When you add in Trelawney and Madam Pince, it's a good thing Hogwarts is big enough to hold all the folks Dumbledore is possibly hiding. Who else do we know that's missing?
Elanor - Jan 27, 2007 11:39 am (#7 of 33)
Good points Choices!
Who else do we know that's missing?
Ollivander! I'd really see him being hidden by DD! His absence is "glaring" at the beginning of the HBP, don't you think?
Choices - Jan 27, 2007 5:00 pm (#8 of 33)
And Florian Fortescue.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 27, 2007 6:10 pm (#9 of 33)
Yeah, I vote for the Ice Cream man - Florian. Seriously doubt if James and Lily are in hiding. Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did.
Mickey
Laura W - Jan 27, 2007 6:48 pm (#10 of 33)
Could Dumbledore be hiding James and Lily as well as Vance? Food for thought....????? (Choices)
Man, would *that* be a twist!! Alas, on Jo's website, Rumours section, answer to the question, "Is Lily alive?", the response is "No, afraid not."
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And I agree with your post #3, Choices. I think the deaths of Emmeline Vance and Amelia Bones were put into the book to show how much more powerful LV is getting and the increased havoc he is perpetrating on the wizard and Muggle world. Even a respected member of the MOM (Bones) and a member of DD's own Order of the Phoenix (Vance) have become casualties in this second war - not to mention all those people who died when the bridge collapsed.
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Re what Snape said in Spinners End; my guess is that Snape had nothing to do with the kidnap and murder of Vance, and that he was just saying this to Bellatrix to show what a loyal DE he is (snort). I'm not a hundred per cent sure about my previous sentence though. (As in, if he really *is* still on Voldemort's side, he could have been telling Bella the truth about this; I just don't think so.)
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Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did. (Mickey)
Absolutely!!
Laura
Thom Matheson - Jan 27, 2007 8:21 pm (#11 of 33)
Laura and Choices, I'm with you on this. Snape’s was a boast to Bella. What is Bella going to do, ask Voldemort? Voldemorts response is, "do you doubt the Dark Lord"? Oops to Bella. If wrong Voldemort still responds to Bella. Bella cannot question or challenge Voldemort. If she says anything the only real loser would be Bella. Snape is in no danger. It is a gamble, but when you are a spy everything you say is a roll of the dice, and a chance for discovery isn't it?
Chemyst - Jan 27, 2007 11:01 pm (#12 of 33)
The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked. - Soul Search
Au contraire! I have one that works if Snape is on the good side; Emmeline Vance was a traitor to the Order. Snape discovered Emmeline was only pretending to be a member of the Order but that she was actually a spy for Voldemort.
So Snape was crafty enough to convince the Dark Lord that Emmeline was really a double agent. Then LV, thinking that Emmeline had betrayed him, killed her; when all the while she was really loyal to LV and her position in the Order was her spy persona.
LV kills his own spy planted in the Order because he was paranoid enough to believe she was betraying him as a double agent. No fake death required. Snape can claim credit for having her killed. DD has yet another reason to trust Snape.
Luna Logic - Jan 28, 2007 6:02 am (#13 of 33)
At this stage of this discussion I have just a question about the presentation of Emmeline Vance: "a stately looking witch in an emerald-green shawl." Have we clues or hints that green clothing may be related to Slytherin's House at school?
Just to test a (weak ...) link Slytherin/traitor to the Order...
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 8:27 am (#14 of 33)
Only problem I have with your theory Chemyst is that if Emmeline was a traitor to the order then surely she has informed Voldemort about Snape. Voldemort would then be put in the position of who to believe. Personally with the paranoia that Voldie has exhibited, it would be easier to AK them both.
Mickey
Choices - Jan 28, 2007 11:22 am (#15 of 33)
Mickey - "Seriously doubt if James and Lily are in hiding. Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did."
Mickey, I hope you realize I did not mean that seriously. My tongue was firmly in my cheek. LOL
About the green clothing - Green is definitely connected to Slytherin, but then McGonagall (and other non-Slytherins) sometimes wears green clothing. So, once again JKR is being vague.
Luna Logic - Jan 28, 2007 12:40 pm (#16 of 33)
thank you, Choices... I have tried This Emmeline Vance seems not very promising, and I admire those who persevere (persist) in involving her somewhere... Courage, Emmeline, you have fans You are not forgotten !
oh... another question to participate to this noble task: has Emmeline Vance any family? at school? (I think not, but....)
Or has somebody try an anagram ? (surely...)
Chemyst - Jan 28, 2007 12:57 pm (#17 of 33)
Only problem I have with your theory Chemyst is that if Emmeline was a traitor to the order then surely she has informed Voldemort about Snape. ... Personally with the paranoia that Voldie has exhibited, it would be easier to AK them both. - Mickey
LOL on the AK! My biggest problem with my own theory was explaining Emmeline's whereabouts during the rebirthing; but I decided perhaps she needed to stay anonymous under her hood. Harry would not recognize her yet; they weren't formally introduced until a few months later. As to your objection, I'd explain it this way-
Voldemort's initial Point Of View:
Having good intel on DD is vital; he assigns Emmeline to spy on DD. Emmeline can't cover DD's time at school, so LV chooses the bright young DE/potions whiz to be his spy at Hogwarts.
Fate Intervenes
During the job interview, DD becomes aware of Snape's "assignment" and speaks to Snape much like he did to Draco on the tower, offering Snape a way out. Snape agrees.
Emmeline's Point of View:
She is a spy for LV deep undercover in the Order of the Phoenix. She realizes LV has DD being watched at Hogwarts by someone else. LV does not generally let one DE know who the other DEs are (this is canon) but she may have figured out it was Snape. Even so, Snape was not visibly active in the Order during the first war, so Emmeline never crossed paths with Snape and would not have found anything to report.
Snape's Point of View:
He'd joined the DE to have friends, but like Regulus, was having second thoughts. Unlike Regulus though, he had a better grasp of the intricacies involved in leaving. He sees Dumbledore's offer as an intriguing challenge. LV does not generally let one DE know who the other DEs are (this is canon) and Snape did not know about Emmeline's true role during the first war.
So it is unlikely Emmeline would have informed LV about Snape during the first war, and if she did, it could be explained by Snape giving a "very convincing" performance as a spy. If Emmeline attempted to report Snape after the Order was reassembled, we have canon as a testament to Snape's Occlumency skill. His being a decent Legilimens is certainly implied. I think Snape would find it a major rush to deflect Emmeline’s accusations by getting LV to kill his own spy. We did get to see how Snape nonchalantly dismissed Bella's suspicions. If he can stay that cool in the face of the Dark Lord, he can twist Emmeline's report effectively and convincingly too.
Also, (assuming once again that the other DEs did not know Emmeline was one of them,) since one of LV's greatest weapons is fear, for propaganda purposes he would want Emmeline's murder to "look like" he is so strong he is taking out DD supporters; which he believed he was!
rambkowalczyk - Jan 28, 2007 4:46 pm (#18 of 33)
Choices makes a good point that not everyone can be saved by Dumbledore but still this is an interesting idea.
If Draco thought he killed Emmeline, would that account for his overconfidence in thinking he can kill Dumbledore?
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 5:38 pm (#19 of 33)
Me thinks that if Draco had killed ANYONE then he would have had no problem with doing in Dumbledore up on the tower. No he hasn't and I doubt if he was the one who placed the curse on Rosmerta.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 6:51 pm (#20 of 33)
I doubt if he was the one who placed the curse on Rosmerta.
I'm curious about why you doubt it, Mickey. I'll admit I find it interesting that Draco chose Muggle methods to deal with Harry on the train (after he'd used the body-bind, of course) ... but I think he is quite capable of putting an Imperius on Rosmerta when she was not looking. In fact, I think this is exactly the kind of thing he would do very well.
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 7:47 pm (#21 of 33)
Because of the same reason he couldn't AK Dumbledore. He lacks the confidence of an adult wizard. A full body bind. Heck, Hermione did one of those in her first year. But to put a full Imperius on Rosmerta especially one as complex as what she was hit with. I believe he would have had to have some help from another DE. Sorry, but I have little confidence in Draco's ability as a wizard. I may be proved wrong in book 7 but I have a feeling that he had nothing to do with Ms Vance death, or a "Unforgiveable Curse" . We have seen NONE done by a student in the previous five books. I don't think JKR started in book six. But JM2K's.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 8:34 pm (#22 of 33)
I do not think he had anything to do with Vance's death, either. But I am betting he could do an Imperius Curse.
journeymom - Jan 28, 2007 11:20 pm (#23 of 33)
Chemyst, where in canon does it say that LV doesn't let the DEs know who each other are? The showdown in the DoM was led by Lucius, and they all certainly seemed to know who each other were. Some of them were there when LV was rebirthed a year before. Then there is the group on the Tower in HBP, and one of them (Fenrir?) acknowledges Snape without hesitation. Pettigrew was living with Snape.
Did I misunderstand?
Choices - Jan 29, 2007 10:07 am (#24 of 33)
Chemyst - wish I knew where that quote was. I remember it, but just don't know where to put my finger on it. Someone made the statement that the DEs did not know all the other members, just a few of them - this for security reasons I suppose, so they could not expose the whole membership if caught and given Veritaserum or something similar.
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 29, 2007 10:33 am (#25 of 33)
I think the quote was given in GoF during the Pensieve scene of Karakoff's trial.
Choices - Jan 29, 2007 11:11 am (#26 of 33)
You're right. Thanks, Nathan.
------we never knew the names of every one of our fellows----He alone knew exactly who we all were----- (Karkaroff) GOF chapter 30 The Pensieve
journeymom - Jan 29, 2007 11:17 am (#27 of 33)
Ahhh. That's a great point.
wynnleaf - Jan 29, 2007 1:44 pm (#28 of 33)
Prior to the tower scene, I don't think Draco had ever been at wand point and ready to kill someone. My impression was that he'd never before attempted to kill someone directly. Dumbledore said that Draco wasn't killer. But (putting aside those other attempts on DD's life) if he'd directly "fired" on someone before with intent to kill, then I'd say he was a killer, even if the person didn't actually die.
As regards who Dumbledore has hidden, my guesses are Ollivander, possibly Fortescue, and maybe Snape's mom (if Pince=Prince).
As for Snape's involvement with Vance's death, it could also be that Snape did give some information to LV (after all, as a double agent he's got to pass along some "good" info, in order to be believable), and Vance was supposed to be warned or otherwise protected, but something fell through and she was killed anyway.
-
Soul Search - Jan 29, 2007 5:28 pm (#29 of 33)
MickeyCee3948,
Me thinks that if Draco had killed ANYONE then he would have had no problem with doing in Dumbledore up on the tower.
Good thought. Of course, he did try to kill Dumbledore twice before. He did let Death Eaters into Hogwarts, which could have led to a lot of deaths. I see Draco desperation overruling everything else. On the tower, he had accomplished his task, getting Death Eaters into the castle, and wasn't pushed by desperation. He knew someone would kill Dumbledore, given the situation, and he, Draco, didn't need to do it.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2007 5:32 pm (#30 of 33)
Didn't need to do it even though the DEs were telling each other that LV had said Draco had to do it.
Mickey
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 29, 2007 6:51 pm (#31 of 33)
From Accio Quote! --
Harry believes that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore even if he had all the time in the world. Indeed he would not have; this will have implications for Draco’s future. [Read the whole quote from RCMH1, 2006]
Of course we know sending poisoned mead and cursed necklaces from afar is very different from pointing a wand at someone's chest and finding the hatred in your heart to execute a killing curse.
Back to Ms. Vance, I think Severus must have had something to do with it (in Vold's eyes) otherwise he wouldn't risk tossing out such info to Bella. She would find a way to slide it into conversation with Vold just to see if Severus was telling the truth. I feel it's possible she's in DD's WWProgram.
Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 2:12 pm (#32 of 33)
Just in passing... in + Predictions for Book Seven thread I found something very appropriate journeymom: "I predict it will be revealed that another character used an anagram to create a name." (Luna): are you thinking of Emmeline Vance ? (good luck...) TheSaint #1210: How about: 'Evil men menace'
LOL (my first lol) Yes Emmeline Vance is good to investigate But agent, or double, or... ? Of what side of evil?
Evil menace men, but a woman is there, and her name is now known! (I refer to Choices above: ‘we never knew the names of every one of our fellow’) Or: Evil men menace, and Emmeline is one of those (women).
(sorry for this non serious post - but thanks to Journeymom’s prediction and The Saint’s research anyway)
Solitaire - Feb 3, 2007 8:40 am (#33 of 33)
I do not believe it was Emmeline Vance who was in the graveyard. I believe it was Narcissa Malfoy. I think that is why Draco was on his own when the masked DEs were tormenting their victims in the campground at the QWC (GoF). He couldn't be with Narcissa, because she was robed and masked with the other DEs. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Soul Search, this is an interesting idea, if Dumbledore has hidden Emmeline Vance in a safe house. It would explain Dumbledore's comment to Draco on the tower about hiding and protecting him because, the comment does not seem to be applicable to Igor Karkaroff who Lupin asserts has been murdered.
haymoni - Jan 26, 2007 12:33 pm (#2 of 33)
When I heard Snape make that comment "It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ... ." I wondered if he had actually told Voldy anything at all.
Choices - Jan 26, 2007 5:55 pm (#3 of 33)
I have just one question - why? We know virtually nothing about Vance. What would make her so important in the plot that Dumbledore would fake her murder and hide her? Wouldn't it have been mentioned in the papers that she was thought to have been murdered, but no body was ever found if Dumbledore is hiding her? Are we to assume that every person in the book who goes missing is being hidden by Dumbledore? No, I think Vance is really dead, the authorities have her body and she is not being hidden. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :-)
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 26, 2007 9:55 pm (#4 of 33)
Stick to your guns Choices, I'm right behind you.
Mickey
Soul Search - Jan 27, 2007 6:26 am (#5 of 33)
A dead Emmeline Vance doesn't fit and has some momentous implications.
Given Snape's claim to Bellatrix: "It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ... ."
If we assume "Snape is Evil," then Snape caused the death of a member of the Order, and is boasting about it. Dumbledore has other spies; he will learn of it, revealing Snape’s evil nature. Doesn't make sense.
If Snape is good, then he, perhaps with Dumbledore's okay, sacrificed a member of the Order to win a few points with Voldemort. Doesn't make sense and goes against both Snape's and Dumbledore's nature.
Snape lied, he really didn't have anything to do with Emmeline Vance's death and is just claiming his involvement. Risky. Bellatrix would call him out and damage his credibility. So, Snape did give information that led to her "death."
The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked.
Even that presents some problems. Faking her death had to have more reasons than Snape winning a few points with Voldemort. The Herbert Chorley > Imperius Curse, Madam Rosmerta > Imperius Curse, Aunt Bellatrix teaching Draco Occlumency, Draco is new death eater, canon hints seem to direct possible scenarios to Draco.
Choices - Jan 27, 2007 10:27 am (#6 of 33)
Soul Search - "The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked."
I have to disagree. Perhaps Snape unknowingly gave information to Voldemort that did result in Vance's death, just as he did with James and Lily. He gave Voldemort half the prophesy and it did result in James and Lily being killed and attempted murder on Harry. Could Dumbledore be hiding James and Lily as well as Vance? Food for thought....????? When you add in Trelawney and Madam Pince, it's a good thing Hogwarts is big enough to hold all the folks Dumbledore is possibly hiding. Who else do we know that's missing?
Elanor - Jan 27, 2007 11:39 am (#7 of 33)
Good points Choices!
Who else do we know that's missing?
Ollivander! I'd really see him being hidden by DD! His absence is "glaring" at the beginning of the HBP, don't you think?
Choices - Jan 27, 2007 5:00 pm (#8 of 33)
And Florian Fortescue.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 27, 2007 6:10 pm (#9 of 33)
Yeah, I vote for the Ice Cream man - Florian. Seriously doubt if James and Lily are in hiding. Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did.
Mickey
Laura W - Jan 27, 2007 6:48 pm (#10 of 33)
Could Dumbledore be hiding James and Lily as well as Vance? Food for thought....????? (Choices)
Man, would *that* be a twist!! Alas, on Jo's website, Rumours section, answer to the question, "Is Lily alive?", the response is "No, afraid not."
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And I agree with your post #3, Choices. I think the deaths of Emmeline Vance and Amelia Bones were put into the book to show how much more powerful LV is getting and the increased havoc he is perpetrating on the wizard and Muggle world. Even a respected member of the MOM (Bones) and a member of DD's own Order of the Phoenix (Vance) have become casualties in this second war - not to mention all those people who died when the bridge collapsed.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re what Snape said in Spinners End; my guess is that Snape had nothing to do with the kidnap and murder of Vance, and that he was just saying this to Bellatrix to show what a loyal DE he is (snort). I'm not a hundred per cent sure about my previous sentence though. (As in, if he really *is* still on Voldemort's side, he could have been telling Bella the truth about this; I just don't think so.)
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Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did. (Mickey)
Absolutely!!
Laura
Thom Matheson - Jan 27, 2007 8:21 pm (#11 of 33)
Laura and Choices, I'm with you on this. Snape’s was a boast to Bella. What is Bella going to do, ask Voldemort? Voldemorts response is, "do you doubt the Dark Lord"? Oops to Bella. If wrong Voldemort still responds to Bella. Bella cannot question or challenge Voldemort. If she says anything the only real loser would be Bella. Snape is in no danger. It is a gamble, but when you are a spy everything you say is a roll of the dice, and a chance for discovery isn't it?
Chemyst - Jan 27, 2007 11:01 pm (#12 of 33)
The only scenario that works is that Emmeline Vance's death was faked. - Soul Search
Au contraire! I have one that works if Snape is on the good side; Emmeline Vance was a traitor to the Order. Snape discovered Emmeline was only pretending to be a member of the Order but that she was actually a spy for Voldemort.
So Snape was crafty enough to convince the Dark Lord that Emmeline was really a double agent. Then LV, thinking that Emmeline had betrayed him, killed her; when all the while she was really loyal to LV and her position in the Order was her spy persona.
LV kills his own spy planted in the Order because he was paranoid enough to believe she was betraying him as a double agent. No fake death required. Snape can claim credit for having her killed. DD has yet another reason to trust Snape.
Luna Logic - Jan 28, 2007 6:02 am (#13 of 33)
At this stage of this discussion I have just a question about the presentation of Emmeline Vance: "a stately looking witch in an emerald-green shawl." Have we clues or hints that green clothing may be related to Slytherin's House at school?
Just to test a (weak ...) link Slytherin/traitor to the Order...
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 8:27 am (#14 of 33)
Only problem I have with your theory Chemyst is that if Emmeline was a traitor to the order then surely she has informed Voldemort about Snape. Voldemort would then be put in the position of who to believe. Personally with the paranoia that Voldie has exhibited, it would be easier to AK them both.
Mickey
Choices - Jan 28, 2007 11:22 am (#15 of 33)
Mickey - "Seriously doubt if James and Lily are in hiding. Lily would never, never stand for Petunia raising Harry the way she did."
Mickey, I hope you realize I did not mean that seriously. My tongue was firmly in my cheek. LOL
About the green clothing - Green is definitely connected to Slytherin, but then McGonagall (and other non-Slytherins) sometimes wears green clothing. So, once again JKR is being vague.
Luna Logic - Jan 28, 2007 12:40 pm (#16 of 33)
thank you, Choices... I have tried This Emmeline Vance seems not very promising, and I admire those who persevere (persist) in involving her somewhere... Courage, Emmeline, you have fans You are not forgotten !
oh... another question to participate to this noble task: has Emmeline Vance any family? at school? (I think not, but....)
Or has somebody try an anagram ? (surely...)
Chemyst - Jan 28, 2007 12:57 pm (#17 of 33)
Only problem I have with your theory Chemyst is that if Emmeline was a traitor to the order then surely she has informed Voldemort about Snape. ... Personally with the paranoia that Voldie has exhibited, it would be easier to AK them both. - Mickey
LOL on the AK! My biggest problem with my own theory was explaining Emmeline's whereabouts during the rebirthing; but I decided perhaps she needed to stay anonymous under her hood. Harry would not recognize her yet; they weren't formally introduced until a few months later. As to your objection, I'd explain it this way-
Voldemort's initial Point Of View:
Having good intel on DD is vital; he assigns Emmeline to spy on DD. Emmeline can't cover DD's time at school, so LV chooses the bright young DE/potions whiz to be his spy at Hogwarts.
Fate Intervenes
During the job interview, DD becomes aware of Snape's "assignment" and speaks to Snape much like he did to Draco on the tower, offering Snape a way out. Snape agrees.
Emmeline's Point of View:
She is a spy for LV deep undercover in the Order of the Phoenix. She realizes LV has DD being watched at Hogwarts by someone else. LV does not generally let one DE know who the other DEs are (this is canon) but she may have figured out it was Snape. Even so, Snape was not visibly active in the Order during the first war, so Emmeline never crossed paths with Snape and would not have found anything to report.
Snape's Point of View:
He'd joined the DE to have friends, but like Regulus, was having second thoughts. Unlike Regulus though, he had a better grasp of the intricacies involved in leaving. He sees Dumbledore's offer as an intriguing challenge. LV does not generally let one DE know who the other DEs are (this is canon) and Snape did not know about Emmeline's true role during the first war.
So it is unlikely Emmeline would have informed LV about Snape during the first war, and if she did, it could be explained by Snape giving a "very convincing" performance as a spy. If Emmeline attempted to report Snape after the Order was reassembled, we have canon as a testament to Snape's Occlumency skill. His being a decent Legilimens is certainly implied. I think Snape would find it a major rush to deflect Emmeline’s accusations by getting LV to kill his own spy. We did get to see how Snape nonchalantly dismissed Bella's suspicions. If he can stay that cool in the face of the Dark Lord, he can twist Emmeline's report effectively and convincingly too.
Also, (assuming once again that the other DEs did not know Emmeline was one of them,) since one of LV's greatest weapons is fear, for propaganda purposes he would want Emmeline's murder to "look like" he is so strong he is taking out DD supporters; which he believed he was!
rambkowalczyk - Jan 28, 2007 4:46 pm (#18 of 33)
Choices makes a good point that not everyone can be saved by Dumbledore but still this is an interesting idea.
If Draco thought he killed Emmeline, would that account for his overconfidence in thinking he can kill Dumbledore?
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 5:38 pm (#19 of 33)
Me thinks that if Draco had killed ANYONE then he would have had no problem with doing in Dumbledore up on the tower. No he hasn't and I doubt if he was the one who placed the curse on Rosmerta.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 6:51 pm (#20 of 33)
I doubt if he was the one who placed the curse on Rosmerta.
I'm curious about why you doubt it, Mickey. I'll admit I find it interesting that Draco chose Muggle methods to deal with Harry on the train (after he'd used the body-bind, of course) ... but I think he is quite capable of putting an Imperius on Rosmerta when she was not looking. In fact, I think this is exactly the kind of thing he would do very well.
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 7:47 pm (#21 of 33)
Because of the same reason he couldn't AK Dumbledore. He lacks the confidence of an adult wizard. A full body bind. Heck, Hermione did one of those in her first year. But to put a full Imperius on Rosmerta especially one as complex as what she was hit with. I believe he would have had to have some help from another DE. Sorry, but I have little confidence in Draco's ability as a wizard. I may be proved wrong in book 7 but I have a feeling that he had nothing to do with Ms Vance death, or a "Unforgiveable Curse" . We have seen NONE done by a student in the previous five books. I don't think JKR started in book six. But JM2K's.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 8:34 pm (#22 of 33)
I do not think he had anything to do with Vance's death, either. But I am betting he could do an Imperius Curse.
journeymom - Jan 28, 2007 11:20 pm (#23 of 33)
Chemyst, where in canon does it say that LV doesn't let the DEs know who each other are? The showdown in the DoM was led by Lucius, and they all certainly seemed to know who each other were. Some of them were there when LV was rebirthed a year before. Then there is the group on the Tower in HBP, and one of them (Fenrir?) acknowledges Snape without hesitation. Pettigrew was living with Snape.
Did I misunderstand?
Choices - Jan 29, 2007 10:07 am (#24 of 33)
Chemyst - wish I knew where that quote was. I remember it, but just don't know where to put my finger on it. Someone made the statement that the DEs did not know all the other members, just a few of them - this for security reasons I suppose, so they could not expose the whole membership if caught and given Veritaserum or something similar.
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 29, 2007 10:33 am (#25 of 33)
I think the quote was given in GoF during the Pensieve scene of Karakoff's trial.
Choices - Jan 29, 2007 11:11 am (#26 of 33)
You're right. Thanks, Nathan.
------we never knew the names of every one of our fellows----He alone knew exactly who we all were----- (Karkaroff) GOF chapter 30 The Pensieve
journeymom - Jan 29, 2007 11:17 am (#27 of 33)
Ahhh. That's a great point.
wynnleaf - Jan 29, 2007 1:44 pm (#28 of 33)
Prior to the tower scene, I don't think Draco had ever been at wand point and ready to kill someone. My impression was that he'd never before attempted to kill someone directly. Dumbledore said that Draco wasn't killer. But (putting aside those other attempts on DD's life) if he'd directly "fired" on someone before with intent to kill, then I'd say he was a killer, even if the person didn't actually die.
As regards who Dumbledore has hidden, my guesses are Ollivander, possibly Fortescue, and maybe Snape's mom (if Pince=Prince).
As for Snape's involvement with Vance's death, it could also be that Snape did give some information to LV (after all, as a double agent he's got to pass along some "good" info, in order to be believable), and Vance was supposed to be warned or otherwise protected, but something fell through and she was killed anyway.
-
Soul Search - Jan 29, 2007 5:28 pm (#29 of 33)
MickeyCee3948,
Me thinks that if Draco had killed ANYONE then he would have had no problem with doing in Dumbledore up on the tower.
Good thought. Of course, he did try to kill Dumbledore twice before. He did let Death Eaters into Hogwarts, which could have led to a lot of deaths. I see Draco desperation overruling everything else. On the tower, he had accomplished his task, getting Death Eaters into the castle, and wasn't pushed by desperation. He knew someone would kill Dumbledore, given the situation, and he, Draco, didn't need to do it.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2007 5:32 pm (#30 of 33)
Didn't need to do it even though the DEs were telling each other that LV had said Draco had to do it.
Mickey
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 29, 2007 6:51 pm (#31 of 33)
From Accio Quote! --
Harry believes that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore even if he had all the time in the world. Indeed he would not have; this will have implications for Draco’s future. [Read the whole quote from RCMH1, 2006]
Of course we know sending poisoned mead and cursed necklaces from afar is very different from pointing a wand at someone's chest and finding the hatred in your heart to execute a killing curse.
Back to Ms. Vance, I think Severus must have had something to do with it (in Vold's eyes) otherwise he wouldn't risk tossing out such info to Bella. She would find a way to slide it into conversation with Vold just to see if Severus was telling the truth. I feel it's possible she's in DD's WWProgram.
Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 2:12 pm (#32 of 33)
Just in passing... in + Predictions for Book Seven thread I found something very appropriate journeymom: "I predict it will be revealed that another character used an anagram to create a name." (Luna): are you thinking of Emmeline Vance ? (good luck...) TheSaint #1210: How about: 'Evil men menace'
LOL (my first lol) Yes Emmeline Vance is good to investigate But agent, or double, or... ? Of what side of evil?
Evil menace men, but a woman is there, and her name is now known! (I refer to Choices above: ‘we never knew the names of every one of our fellow’) Or: Evil men menace, and Emmeline is one of those (women).
(sorry for this non serious post - but thanks to Journeymom’s prediction and The Saint’s research anyway)
Solitaire - Feb 3, 2007 8:40 am (#33 of 33)
I do not believe it was Emmeline Vance who was in the graveyard. I believe it was Narcissa Malfoy. I think that is why Draco was on his own when the masked DEs were tormenting their victims in the campground at the QWC (GoF). He couldn't be with Narcissa, because she was robed and masked with the other DEs. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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