Possible glitch in GoF

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:30 pm

Possible glitch in GoF?

This topic was opened to archive the above titled thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum (HPLF) as it was created and hosted on World Crossing (WX) until WX ceased operation on 15 April 2011. ~ John
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Anatithenai - Nov 20, 2003 9:19 am (#0 of 292)
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:38 pm

Hello all, this is my first post here, so please bare with me if I have done this wrong, or put it in the wrong place. Thanks for the understanding.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, and if so, I apologize profusely. This just seems like it's a bit important to the Goblet of Fire book, and thus everything afterwards. It is also possible that I missed something that explained this in the book. If that is the case, feel free to publicly mock me.

All right, here we go. When Harry is fighting Voldemort at the end, he is saved by the Priori Incantatem, the two brother wands going a bit nuts. This saves Harry's life, gives him time to escape with the grim news of Voldemorts return to strength, and bring back Cedric. So here is the thing. As the story goes, when Voldemort used the Avada Kedavra curse on Harry, it rebounded back to him, making him lack substance. He fled in basically spirit form to the forests far away to regroup, but couldn't fix himself due to having no substance to hold a wand to begin to repair himself. This leads to the problem. How did he get his wand back? This specific wand is very much needed to save Harry, or else the Priori Incantatem would not have happened, meaning Harry is a dead duckie. His whole survival revolves around this wand, but Voldemort couldn't take his wand with him after being almost killed. They go to lenghts to say that he couldn't hold his wand, so where did it pop up at? Sirius was first on the scene. I doubt he would give it back. If the MoM took it, I would assume they would destroy such a vile wand. If you remember, in OotP, they threaten to destroy Harry's wand, for illegal use of magic. So it would be quite logical to destroy Voldemorts. It shouldn't have been hard to find, being that Voldemort didn't have a way to hide it. So please give me some ideas, or what I possibly may have forgotten.

Sorry this rambled on for so long, but it has been bugging me for a bit. Thanks for the time guys.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:32 pm

S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 12:42 pm (#1 of 292)

Actually, this little glitch has come up quite a lot. I think it's one of those little details JkR has yet to give us, on purpose, of course, but doesn't mean we can't try to out guess her. Someone, somewhere, suggested that Pettigrew may have shown up at some point, while being pursued by Black, and picked up Voldemort's wand. I thought that sounded like a pretty good explanation. We know that Animagi keep their belongings when they change and that Peter had Voldemort's wand with him in the graveyard before Voldemort was resurrected because he used it to kill Cedric.....

Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 20, 2003 12:49 pm (#2 of 292)
Edited by Nov 20, 2003 1:12 pm

My guess is that Wormtail was on the scene in rat form, nabbed the wand, and made off with it. It doesn't state what time the next day he came across Sirius, but I gather it was fairly early (which makes him knowing about it rather suspicious, as even someone as high up in the WW as McGonagall had to wait the best part of a day to find out that Lily and James were dead, while Peter knew all about it... because he was there).

This could be why the wand caused such chaos, too. Yes, it was his plan to fake his own death, but I'm pretty sure he didn't intend to blow up half the street and kill all the passersby. I think this is due to using a wand that firstly wasn't his own (you never perform as well than with your own wand), secondly, was an evil wand to begin with, and thirdly, by far outstripped his own powers.

This is just a theory, but it makes sense of various weird things.

It does raise the problem of what Peter did with the wand all those years he was disguised as a rat- a wand as long, impressive and notorious as Voldemort's can't be put anywhere. Maybe he kept it in the Shrieking Shack all those years he was disguised as the Weasley's pet rat (but what did he do with it at the pet shop?... could have made it invisible, I suppose, but it would be a hefty weight for a fairly small creature to lug around).

The Shrieking Shack was disused for years and would have made an ideal hiding place. I don't think Sirius found it while he was there.

But maybe he did have it in his robes all that time he was a rat... clothes transform too... Wearing the same robe for twelve years while going incognito as a rat is very scabby but hey, his alias was Scabbers!

Just theories, mind. Nothing anywhere near definite.

Jim the Potty - Nov 20, 2003 12:58 pm (#3 of 292)

I'v just had a brainwave. What if Pettigrew was there during the attack and it was him who tried to stop Voldy from killing Lily and Harry.

In PoA Lupin seems surprised when Harry tells him he heard James's voice whilst battling dementors. Why? Maybe James wasn't there. Maybe the voice belonged to Wormtail. Wormtail tells Voldy where to find the Potters. Then he changes his mind, remembering what a great friend James was. He gets to the Potters' house, finds that James is already dead and tries to save Lily and Harry. Voldy pushes him aside but doesn't kill him because he gave Voldy important information (location of the Potters). The killing curse on Harry backfires, leaving Voldy bodiless. Wormtail is already there so he pockets the wand then leaves the scene before anybody else arrives. 13 years later he finds Voldy, restores him to power and returns the wand.

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, I was typing stuff as soon as I thought of it!

Liz Mann - Nov 20, 2003 1:07 pm (#4 of 292)

Voldie would definately kill Wormtail, important info or not.

S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 1:09 pm (#5 of 292)

It does raise the problem of what Peter did with the wand all those years he was disguised as a rat- a wand as long, impressive and notorious as Voldemort's can't be put anywhere.

That's not really a problem. As I said before, it appears an animagus is able to keep their clothes and possessions on them when they transform as they transform with them. Therefore, if Voldemort's wand was in his pocket, it would've transformed with him as well....

Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 20, 2003 1:14 pm (#6 of 292)

Yes, I didn't realise that until halfway through my post. Doh!- I mean, you don't see McGonagall's, Sirius's or anyone else's wand when they're transformed, do they? They must have them, in case they run into a situation where it would be much more convenient to be human shaped than animal, and in dire need of protection.

FCBarca - Nov 28, 2003 12:13 pm (#7 of 292)

I think it's probably just a mistake she has made (J.K. Rowling). I don't think it is anything important, although it might be...

5ofclubs - Nov 29, 2003 7:35 pm (#8 of 292)

Maybe the attack on the Potters was planned... by the Potters. Knowing the full prophecy, and its possible ramifications, they chose Peter as the secret-keeper, knowing he would betray them. Knowing the "old magic" (to quote Narnia) of sacrificial love, they set LV up for his downfall... at great personal expense. No one said being in the Order was an easy job.

Hem Hem - Nov 29, 2003 8:17 pm (#9 of 292)

Couldn't they have worked it out, in that case, that one of the paretns would survive? For example, if they were planning this out, James could have hid in the basement...Voldemort's first concern for the evening was Killing Harry, so he would certainly have tried to kill Harry (and Lily, etc) before hunting out James...and once he would meet his downfall by Harry (killing Lily directly before, of course), James could survive and raise Harry.

Otherwise, it's an intruiging possiblity.

timrew - Nov 29, 2003 11:46 pm (#10 of 292)

I'm not buying this. Okay, I can see the Potters setting themselves up to trap Voldemort. But Harry as well? No way!

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:33 pm

Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 30, 2003 8:56 am (#11 of 292)

Let me tell you as a mother that I agree once more with Tim. I would kill someon if they came within two feet of my kids even appearing like they were going to hurt them. I am a risk taker, but endangering my kids is something I would never do.

Denise P. - Nov 30, 2003 8:58 am (#12 of 292)

Yep, the mama bear inside comes to the front if one's child is threatened. Mrs Weasley has it towards Harry as well. I can't buy Lily doing anything that would have put Harry at risk.

Orchal Fireb - Dec 2, 2003 11:09 pm (#13 of 292)

I thought James was killed first, then Lily, and finally Harry was attacked, but... when Priori incantatum was performed in the graveyard james comes out first then lily. I thought it was suppossed to be in reverse order, since all the other victoms were. Im confused.

Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 1:58 am (#14 of 292)

That part was an error, JRK changed it in the new editions.

Orchal Fireb - Dec 3, 2003 10:25 am (#15 of 292)

ohhhh makes sense

Andrew Hunt - Dec 3, 2003 2:23 pm (#16 of 292)

Ok, I've just thought of something. Somewhere, in one of the books, I thinking PoA. Someone, I think Hagrid, mentions that when he got to the Potter house it was too late, and the house was in ruins. I think the exact quote was that there was nothing left of the house. So how could Voldemorts' wand, and Harry survive when the house explodes or catches fire, or whatever happens to it when it is destroyed? One theory in this thread is that Wormtail was there trying to stop Voldemort. He would also have dies if the house exploded.

MTW - Dec 4, 2003 6:50 pm (#17 of 292)

Hagrid's description of the ruin house could be a) Hagrid exaggeration. or b) Wormtail ( who wouldn't want to be in the same room at that moment when V confronted Lily) got both Harry and Wand out of the burning house.

azi - Dec 14, 2003 8:45 am (#18 of 292)

Why would Wormtail get Harry out of the house? I think he's the kinda guy who runs very fast when everything goes wrong. I don't think Wormtail would want to be around when Sirius turned up. Harry will have survived because of a combination of wizards powers (like being able to survive falling 50 feet etc.) and his mum's protection.

Joost! - Dec 15, 2003 3:46 am (#19 of 292)

It's quite possible that Wormtail rescued Harry in 1981, that could be the reason why Harry saved his life in PoA.

azi - Dec 15, 2003 11:49 am (#20 of 292)

How would Harry know that? I think Harry would see it as another disgusting part of Wormtail's character. Plus Hagrid says he got Harry out of the ruins for himself.

Page 153. POA UK edition '...It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead.' and it goes on.

Wow, that was hard to write! I kept correcting all the grammar!

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:35 pm

Morsmorde - Dec 18, 2003 5:24 pm (#21 of 292)

I'm going with the standard simple explanation that Wormtail was close at hand during Voldemort's attack on the Potter's. Knowing the Dark Lord as I do Wink

He'd want him around in case he got it wrong, he'd be nearby so Voldy could punish him.

After the explosion, if indeed there was one, it has been correctly pointed out that Hagrid's version of the event may be exaggerated, Wormtail may have entered the house to see what had happened, who had won. He would have seen the dead bodies of James and Lily. He see's Voldemort's wand lying alone on the ground and baby Harry alive and well. Freaking, he most likely took Voldemort's wand and high-tailed it out of there.

So he has Voldemort's wand, we know that you keep your clothes and possession in your Animagus form. So when he reunites with Voldemort, TA DA!, he is able to return it to his master. Of course, it would be nice to have confirmation on this.

almightykneazle33 - Dec 19, 2003 12:28 pm (#22 of 292)

In PoA Lupin seems surprised when Harry tells him he heard James's voice whilst battling dementors. Why? Maybe James wasn't there. Maybe the voice belonged to Wormtail. Wormtail tells Voldy where to find the Potters. Then he changes his mind, remembering what a great friend James was. He gets to the Potters' house, finds that James is already dead and tries to save Lily and Harry. Voldy pushes him aside but doesn't kill him because he gave Voldy important information (location of the Potters). The killing curse on Harry backfires, leaving Voldy bodiless. Wormtail is already there so he pockets the wand then leaves the scene before anybody else arrives. 13 years later he finds Voldy, restores him to power and returns the wand. (Jim Potty Post #3)

A problem with that theory, Jim, is the fact that James came out of the wand... So lemme think. Wormtail tells Voldy location, Voldy goes to the Potters on Wormtail's info, and first he kills James, then he goes for Lily... ( From POA pg 240) "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off--" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room--a door bursting open--a cackle of high-pitched laugher.."

How about the voice is James, but the stumbling and door bursting was Wormtail bursting in... But why would Wormtail save James? Did something happen between James and Peter that Peter felt indebted to James? Maybe someone told Peter something after he had already betrayed the Potters to make him change his mind... But what? Was it true? That could be a possibility. Someone (Dumbledore?) had new information about Voldemort and told Peter (was Peter in the Order of the Pheonix? I would think that he would be..) and the rest of the Order through a meeting. Peter had just come from betraying the Potters to go to a Order meeting (ironic.) and suddenly this new information changes his mind. He doesn't want the Potters to die after all, maybe wanting them to die at a later date, or not at all. Something changes his mind.

Maybe someone told him something about the rest of the prophecy/a foretelling of some kind and so Peter knew that by Voldy trying to kill Harry, Voldy would kill himself. Peter thought that he might redeem himself or make himself a better DE in Voldy's eyes by saving Voldy so he goes to the Potter's house. When he gets there, James is already dead, Lily's screaming and covering Harry and Voldemort is about to preform the deadly Avada Kedavara curse to kill Harry. Wormtail crashes through the front door and is hiding out of sight, and Voldemort is too bent on Harry and Lily to notice. But for some crazy reason, he won't kill Lily ("Stand aside, step aside you silly girl!"). This causes a moment when Wormtail can stop them, but he gets cold feet at the last minute and so Voldy kills Lily. The house blows and the curse is rebounded. Wormtail immediately realizes what this means, grabs the wand, shoves it in his pocket and transforms, whipping through the falling house because in rat shape it is much easier to get through the rubble. Or maybe the house isn't even collapsed, its just an exaggeration on Hagrid's part. Sirius soon gets there to check on the Potter's (an hour later, perhaps not because surely the explosion [if it happened] is bound to attract some people). He freaks, calls up Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn't believe him, thinks he's the traitor trying to get out of it. DD sends Hagrid to pick up Harry, Sirius gives Hagrid the motorbike (which makes him sounds a bit guilty, might I add..) and the rest is history.

In my idea, there's two explanations: either Peter was trying to save James and/or Lily and/or Harry or trying to save Voldemort.

^.^ I know I'm rambling. Anyone have anything to add?

Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 30, 2003 8:56 am (#23 of 292)

almightykneazle33,

I haven't been on in quite a while and I come back to deep stuff like this???? WOW!!! Now you got me thinking!

S.E. Jones - Dec 30, 2003 1:13 pm (#24 of 292)

Sirius soon gets there to check on the Potter's.... He freaks, calls up Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn't believe him, thinks he's the traitor trying to get out of it. DD sends Hagrid to pick up Harry, Sirius gives Hagrid the motorbike (which makes him sounds a bit guilty, might I add..) and the rest is history.

Just wanted to point out that Hagrid got there before Sirius. He had already pulled Harry out of the rubble when Sirius arrived on his bike (PoA).... They argue over Harry because Sirius thinks he should get Harry but Hagrid says Dumbleldore's orders are that Harry is to go to his aunt and uncle and so Sirius gives him his bike to get him there more quickly. I don't see anything suspicious about that myself.

Rosariana - Dec 31, 2003 8:18 am (#25 of 292)

I think that "someone stumbling from the room" is supposed to be Lily with Harry. The door bursts open, in comes Voldemort, down goes James, and Voldemort continues through the house to find Harry. Wormtail, if he was there, which I imagine he was, could have been cowering quietly in a corner or keeping watch outside.

Mrs. Sirius - Jan 3, 2004 8:03 am (#26 of 292)

Hi Rosariana!!! Nice to see you again, welcome back. I agree that if Peter had gone with Voldemort, (which could explain the wand), he'd be crouching out in the bushes, hiding within listening range but safely out of sight. He isn't so brave that he would risk his own well being nor would he have gone inside the house to watch as his friends are murdered. He is a true coward.

A-is-for-Amy - Jan 3, 2004 1:12 pm (#27 of 292)

Voldemort might well have used Peter to lull the Potters into a state of complacency. They wouldn'thave thought twice about opening the door for theor own secret keeper, would they? Or, if Peter was already there, he may have been the one to 'answer the door' when Voldemort came a knockin'!

FCBarca - Jan 3, 2004 1:27 pm (#28 of 292)

Why would Voldemort have to wait for someone to open the door!!! He would unlock it using the 'Alohamora'(spelling) spell

A-is-for-Amy - Jan 3, 2004 6:13 pm (#29 of 292)

Yes, that 's true, but if the Potter's looked out the window and said, "Oh No!" when they saw him, they might have had more time to react than it appears they did. From the description, they were taken very much by surprise.

MTW - Jan 3, 2004 6:29 pm (#30 of 292)

I think Peter being there was a necessary part for Voldie to find the Potter home. Harry was only given Dumbledore letter when they were just outside of Grimmauld Place ( if memory severs me right). So Peter had to take Voldie to a spot near the house then he could tell Voldie "It right in front of you " True Peter could of given him a letter, just like Dumbledore, but to Voldie that probable smell like a setup. So Peter was along for the ride.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:37 pm

S.E. Jones - Jan 4, 2004 11:05 pm (#31 of 292)

Why would they have looked out the window? They thought they were safe and it would appear that the attack happened sometime late at night so they may have been getting ready for bed. It would have been easy to sneek up on them, unlock the door with some spell, and enter the house....

I think Harry was only given Dumbledore's letter as a precaution to make sure no one showed up and grabbed Harry, thus endangering the Order as well. Know what I mean? I think Moody was being his usual cautious self there. He could've gotten the letter back at Privet Drive and still would've been able to find the house. I think Peter told him where they were and Voldemort went there on his own....

rambkowalczyk - Jan 23, 2004 7:23 am (#32 of 292)

Perhaps Voldemort put a homing spell on the wand, so that after a period of time when the wand isn't in the vicinity of Lord Voldemort it apparates to a predetermined location.

Blast - Feb 6, 2004 9:11 pm (#33 of 292)

There is also a summoning charm. Whoever or whereever the wand was it could of been retreved by Accio.

prof sprout - Feb 14, 2004 9:12 am (#34 of 292)

Peter reminds me of the character in the Mummy, Bennie. He is not trustworthy, and will go with whatever side will give him more money/power. He even quotes, its better to be in the right hand of the devil, than in his way.

I picture him hiding in a corner waiting to see what plays out, If Voldie wins he is the Hero, because he gave that information. If the Potters win, he was on his way to warn them, (or make up some story of how Voldie got the address). But win neither situation worked out, he went into hiding, because some DE would believe that it was a setup to get rid of Voldie, or the Order would eventually realize that Peter was the secret keeper. His best plan of escape was to do what he did and "die", and blame Sirius for it.

Jo S - Feb 15, 2004 11:13 pm (#35 of 292)

I found another minor flaw in the GoF text last night whilst reading. At the Quidditch World Cup, everybody was wearing muggle clothes, however when Bagman gave George a receipt for the money George and Fred gambled, George put it "in the front of his robes". Very minor I know but still a mistake????

mischa fan - Feb 16, 2004 3:33 am (#36 of 292)

Jo S if you remember it said that Bagman was walking around in his old Quidditch robes.

Anna L. Black - Feb 16, 2004 11:01 am (#37 of 292)

Bagman, yes, but not George

mischa fan - Feb 16, 2004 12:21 pm (#38 of 292)

Ooops, sorry, I don't think I should post so early in the morning.

Loopy Lupin - Feb 24, 2004 10:31 am (#39 of 292)

I think by the time Bagman showed up, it was getting close to time for the match, so they probably just changed into normal (wizard) clothes

freshwater - Feb 28, 2004 2:23 pm (#40 of 292)

I was listening to Stephen Fry read GoF on CD yesterday, the 2nd task where Harry is swimming in the lake to find the mer-people....as he came up to their village, the saw a large stone with paintings of mer-people on it....paintings...on a stone under the water? LOL How do you paint on something that is underwater? After reading the book 3 times and listening to the story on CD twice, I can't believe I never noticed that before.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:39 pm

Chris. - Feb 28, 2004 7:55 pm (#41 of 292)

Maybe they were watercolours?

freshwater - Feb 28, 2004 10:22 pm (#42 of 292)

Good thinking, Kingsley! But then, that's why you're an auror, right? ;-)

Luanee - Mar 2, 2004 10:37 pm (#43 of 292)

I am sure there are ways of making paintings waterproof.

Choices - Mar 3, 2004 10:28 am (#44 of 292)

I found it interesting that some of the "paintings" showed the Mer-people fighting the Giant Squid.

Hem Hem - Mar 7, 2004 12:22 pm (#45 of 292)

Hey, Dumbledore needed some way to pick up mermish, no?

Choices - Mar 7, 2004 5:54 pm (#46 of 292)

There are probably easier ways of learning the language than while you are being chased by spear carrying mer-people and swimming for your life. LOL

The giant squid - Mar 8, 2004 12:23 am (#47 of 292)

Ah, but were they really fighting, or simply performing an intricate spear-dance for the giant squid's amusement? Smile

Remember, Harry's no expert on mermish society. He could have misinterpreted the paintings the same way he's misinterpreted other things in the books.

We'd better be careful, though...we don't want this turning into another DIGS thread. Wink

I think I'll take this over to the Giant Squid thread and go from there.

Deboshire - Mar 31, 2004 7:24 pm (#48 of 292)

Anent Peter Pettigrew's possession of Voldemort's wand:

When he had informed Voldemort of the Potters' whereabouts, Voldemort very likely pronounced, "Lead the way!" or something similar. After the unfortunate demise of his master Peter knew that it was only a matter of time before he was traced as the Potters' secret-keeper. So he must have taken the wand and then legged it.

His plan was to "get blown up" by another wizard in the presence of either muggle or wizard witnesses. His wand would have survived the "blast". It would have served as a proof that he didn't orchestrate the whole thing in case Prior Incantato was to be used on his wand (It probably was, because even though Bartemius Crouch was insane, he wasn't stupid; so Crouch had the spell performed just to erase any remaining doubts about Sirious's guilt from his or others' minds. And it worked!..)

In order to pull this off, Peter needed somebody else's wand. And the first wand he saw that was readily available was none other than Voldemort's. So he performs the spell with Voldemort's wand while concealing his own. Chances are that the spell overperformed, since the wand was a really powerful one. Then he transforms into the rat with Voldemort's wand still on him and disappears into the sewers.

He either hid Voldemort's wand some place safe or kept it on him. Then, after reuniting with his master, he returns the wand, — Voldemort used the wand to kill Frank in the first chaper of GoF.

Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 9:05 pm (#49 of 292)

I don't think Voldemort have a powerful wand, but a wand that suit him powerfully well

urzafyffe - Mar 31, 2004 10:54 pm (#50 of 292)

Additionally, wouldn't the blast appear with Harry's and DL Prior Incantato? Anyway, I don't believe that Crouch cast the spell on Sirus' wand to prove his innocence. I also doubt that last spell cast by snuffles' wand was intended to create an explosion. So I must politely and respectfully disagree with your theory.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Deboshire - Apr 1, 2004 6:20 am (#51 of 292)

» Tomoé,
Do events around them shape great leaders or do great leaders shape events around them? The same can be said of wizards and wands.

» urzafyffe,
Anent Prior Incantato being performed on Pettigrew's wand, — until we know for certain the order of events, it is just a matter of opinion; however, this seems logical to me — if not Crouch, then may be somebody else (say, from Order of the Phoenix).

As for the rest of your post — not all the spells performed through a wand appear during Priori Incantatem. For example, Voldemort performed several Crucios on one of his followers and Harry. Those didn't "appear" during the process. The same can be said of the other spells — I cannot envisage Pettigrew and Voldemort not using the wand at all between the murders of Bertha and Frank. Perhaps it is not the spells themselves that "appear" but rather thir physical outcome.

Mellilot Flower. - Apr 1, 2004 6:56 am (#52 of 292)

some of the crucio's appear during the priori incantatum at least "At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain..." That would be Harry's screams- as they sound just before Cedric emerges from the wand.

Tomoé - Apr 1, 2004 8:25 am (#53 of 292)

I believe wands are more like ... dresses. If I take one from a top model and try to put it on, I will find out that I'm too big, not tall enough, the cutting won't fit me well, maybe the color will make me look sick. Even if the top model looked like a goddess with her dress, I will look ridiculous.

Maybe I was wrong all along ...

vball man - Apr 1, 2004 12:30 pm (#54 of 292)

You might find that the "Wand is a bit tempermental for your taste, but to each his own..."

Brandon Pennington - Apr 9, 2004 3:33 pm (#55 of 292)

Just responding to some minor mistakes, *This has nothing to do with GoF*, in my Amercican Version of CoS, it has a preview of PoA, and it that excerpt it says he blows up his Aunt Petunia, if memory serves right, doesnt he blow up Aunt Marge?

Okay now you all get to hear me ramble on about my thjeory of the glitch in GoF. What if voldy, hadn't taken his wand at all? What if he used Wormtails?? I mean, in GoF Voldy reached inside a deep pocket and ouut came his wand. So the wand receded instead his robes until he reached in. Lets see, no one gave him his wand, he just used someone elses.

Okay another thing I would like to run by you all. Wormtail, when he is doiing the spell to bring Voldy back, he says "Flesh ----of the servant ---- *w-willingly* given -- you will --- revive -- your master." Okay, first of all, throguht this chapter it mentions how fearful Wormtail is. It also says that he whimpered and sobbed. The w-willingly is emphasished in this sentence also. I thibnk its funny that he is willingly while he is whimpering and sobbing so much. Anwyays, your thoguths?

vball man - Apr 9, 2004 7:57 pm (#56 of 292)

Well, Vol was nervous about making sure that he killed Harry in the graveyard. He had all year to get his wand ready. Since each person gets the best results with his own wand, I would say that he would want his wand and he's make sure that Wormtail had it ready for him.

Neville Longbottom - Apr 10, 2004 12:48 am (#57 of 292)

It has to be Voldie's wand, because of the Priori Incantatem effect.

The giant squid - Apr 10, 2004 11:10 pm (#58 of 292)

It has to be Voldie's wand, because of the Priori Incantatem effect

Unless it was really Wormtail that killed the Potters...but that would basically invalidate the entire series, so I don't think that's anywhere near the case.

Forget I brought it up. Smile

--Mike

Tomoé - Apr 11, 2004 7:51 am (#59 of 292)

It can't be Peter's wand, because the only other wand with a Fakes feather core is the one Tom Riddle got from Olivanders.

To produce a Priori Incantatem, you need two wand sharing the same core, we know Harry's wand core is a feather for Fawkes, we know Fawkes only give another feather and we know the other feather core is in Voldemort's wand. There's no way around, Voldemort fight with his own wand in the graveyard.

Xela - Apr 11, 2004 8:09 am (#60 of 292)

I just read JKR on line interview on world book day or something where she said that Peter used Voldermort's want to kill Cedric. So it is Voldermort's wand on the Prior Incantatem.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:42 pm

vball man - Apr 12, 2004 9:42 am (#61 of 292)

No one was saying that it wasn't Vol's wand.

The giant squid - Apr 12, 2004 6:16 pm (#62 of 292)

Well, I was saying it, but only in jest. I apologize for any confusion...my mind does odd things at 2AM. Smile

--Mike

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 26, 2004 1:07 pm (#63 of 292)

I stumbled across something in GoF that I'd never caught before. Please let me know if there is a better thread for this.

And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought...(GoF p. 661 US)

But I thought Harry had been put under the Imperious curse 5 times by Moody? "Moody had insisted on putting Harry through his paces four times in a row, until Harry could throw off the curse entirely."(GoF p. 232 US)(I added the bolds)

That would make five times total by Moody. The first time Moody put him under he watched Harry fight and struggle to not hop onto the desk. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th times would have been when he put Harry through it four more times in a row. The 6th time would have been when Voldie tried to do it. Was that a miscalculation on JKR's part, or was it that she only counted Moody putting him through it once, which would leave when Voldemort used it; equaling twice. So then, when's the third? Is this a clue? Perhaps Harry had been under it before GoF, but we were never told? Personally, I just thought it was a miscalculation. Thoughts?

Denise P. - Apr 26, 2004 1:35 pm (#64 of 292)

I would count the multiple attempts by Moody as 1 try rather than 5 since they were done right there at the same time.

Catherine - Apr 26, 2004 1:53 pm (#65 of 292)

I'd wondered that, too, Sherbie. I can account for 2 times (the DADA class and Voldemort's attempt), but had to search for the third.

Here's what I came up with--and it's a scene that's always made me wonder. In PoA ,when the Twins have just given Harry the Marauder's Map, Harry debates about what to do.

Then, quite suddenly, as though following orders, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classoom. (p194, Scholastic)

As though following orders. We haven't yet learned about the Imperious Curse in PoA, but this made me wonder.

And if Harry is under the Imperious Curse--who did it?

Thoughts?

Mare - Apr 26, 2004 2:09 pm (#66 of 292)

Other people, on another thread have mentioned the Veela as mindwiping experience...

Detail Seeker - Apr 27, 2004 8:27 am (#67 of 292)

Without checking in my book (as it is at home, where I am not at the moment), I think, the first encounter with the dementors could be one of those experiences, too.

Emily - Apr 29, 2004 1:23 pm (#68 of 292)

Maybe she counted the attempts with Moody separately, but only two of them, because his mind stopped blanking out by the third time?

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 29, 2004 8:22 pm (#69 of 292)

I would agree that the veela and any encounter with dementors qualifies as "mind-sweeping," however, the dementors cause a totally different feeling than the Imperius curse. "An intense cold swept over them all. Harry felt his own breath catch in his chest. The cold went deeper than his skin. It was inside his chest, it was inside his very heart..."
Yet, I read through the Quidditch World Cup chapter and can really see the similarity between the curse and the veela.
Here's Harry's feelings when Imposter Moody puts him under the Imperius curse for the first time:
It was the most wonderfl feeling. Harry felt a floating sensation as every thought and worry in his head was wiped gently away, leaving nothing but a vauge, untraceable happiness. He stood there feeling immensely relaxed, only dimly aware of everyone watching him.
And here's Harry when Voldie performs the curse:
And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought....Ah, it was bliss, not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming...
Compare that to the veela, now.
The veela had started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank. All that mattered in the world was that he kept watching the veela, because if they stopped dancing, terrible things would happen...He wanted to do something very impressive, right now.

Yet, it seems that the veela inspire a hypnotic effect on the mind that causes the person under the effect to try to perform a certain task, while being able to contemplate exactly what action to take. On the other hand, the curse seems to cause the aflicted to be overcome by a dream like state, unsure why it is instructed to do things, yet happy to do them without comtemplation. Harry doesn't want the veela to stop because "terrible things would happen." However, when he is Imperioed, he wants to do whatever he's told, he wants to continue in his blissfully ignorant mind set.

And though the similarity is definitely there with the veela, when Harry gets put under the curse for the first time, he doesn't say "for the second time," nor does it seem like he's ever had that type of feeling before.

So I think Emily may be closest, or that JKR made an error or (I hope!) left a clue. Yet I am interested in the veela and their effect on people. This seems to be a very "mind" oriented book. First the dream with Bryce, then the veela, then the curse, then Ron being somewhat hypnotized by Fleur, then another dream, then the curse again... Perhaps she was just setting the stage for the whole Occlumency thing in 5? Oh well, I fear I'm drifting into another thread's territory here.

Deboshire - May 7, 2004 2:23 am (#70 of 292)

Anent Harry feeling while being placed under the Imperius Curse by Lord Voldemort that it has had happened for the third time:

I think that the unaccounted instance of this had happened during the First Task [Chapter 20 p. 333-334 US ed.]:

It was time to do what he had to do... to focus his mind, entirely and absolutely, upon the thing that was his only chance.... [snip] He seemed to be looking at everything around him through some sort of shimmering, transparent barrier, like a heat haze, which made the enclosure and the hundreds of faces around him swim strangely.... [snip] The crowd was making even more noise.... Bagman was shouting something... but Harry's ears were not working properly anymore...listening wasn't important.... [snip] And a second later, something miraculous happenned.... [snip] he realized that he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear.... He was back where he belonged.... This was just another Quidditch match, that was all... just another Quidditch match, and that Horntail was just another ugly opposing team..

I am not saying that whoever may have put Harry under Imerius Curse guided him through each and every step of the task, but that Harry was "programmed" somewhere along the way to say the least.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:43 pm

Detail Seeker - May 7, 2004 12:09 pm (#71 of 292)

Deboshire, interesting point, you make.

But allow me to disagree. Harry goes through an intensive stress situation and has found the solution and now adrenalin rules. That helps you focus on what is needed to be done and suppresses signals, that offer deviation. There are numerous stories about "tunnel hearing", where people heard low noise signals related to their object of action, blacking out louder noises around. Often you read about that in stories told by soldiers, having encountered such situations in tight fight situations.

So, I read this part of the text as a good description of this effect rather than as a hint of Harry being "programmed" by someone outside of himself.

Hagsquid - May 7, 2004 1:27 pm (#72 of 292)

I think what's important about the "third time" bit is the wiping of his mind. Consider the following three sentences:

Imperius ala Crouch Jr: "Harry felt a floating sensation as every thought and worry in his head was wiped gently away, leaving nothing but a vauge, untraceable happiness."

Then the veelas: "The veela had started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank."

Now on to the graveyard. "And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought...."

It only says that it's the third time that his mind had been wiped of all thought. I think the veela fit that description to a tee.

Tomoé - May 7, 2004 3:22 pm (#73 of 292)

I agree Detail Seeker, that's a good description of a "adrenaline induced trance" (for a lack of better term), your thoughts are uncanny clear, you feel no emotion and you think uncanny fast. I remember I experienced it thrice, when I rescued my dog in a brook, when I rescued one of the children I was baby-sitting (who thought he was big enough to swim without his floats) and when I read the DoM battle for the first time.

Hogs Head - May 24, 2004 3:59 pm (#74 of 292)

SE Jones's point about the transformed Animagi retaining their clothing (and wands) -- quite convenient, isn't it? If you were naked every time you reappeared in human form, that might materially reduce the popularity of being Animagus . . . except among the ranks of devout exhibitionists. It's like Superman always having his Clark Kent clothes handy in some secret pocket of his cape, no?

Karla Labanda - May 27, 2004 8:03 am (#75 of 292)

I have a doubt about Voldemort's wand.

Is he alone when he went to James and Lily' home? I am not sure. But if he was alone, Who recover his wand? Somebody have to stay with him. Peter?? and where he keep the wand during 12 years before Voldermort returns. May somebody help me with this point.

Thank you

mike miller - May 27, 2004 8:19 am (#76 of 292)

Karla - Others may provide more details, but you are right in that Peter ends up with Voldemort's wand. He uses it to kill Cedric in the graveyard scene. I think exactly how the wand came to be in Peter's possession is speculation at this point. He may have gone to Godric's Hollow with Voldemort, we just don't know yet.

Padfoot - May 27, 2004 9:42 am (#77 of 292)

If you were naked every time you reappeared in human form, that might materially reduce the popularity of being Animagus . . . except among the ranks of devout exhibitionists. -Hogs Head

Lol! Good point.

Liz - May 30, 2004 8:24 pm (#78 of 292)

I have a solution, I think that Voldemort travels through time to try to get his glory by killing Harry in the past, or is going to Slitherin himself to try to get plans, or to try to go back in time to get a deeper look into antient magic. I also think HRH along with who ever else, have to fix time again from however Voldemort messes it up. We have already established two timelines and everything, all we need to know is what Voldemort did in the past to attempt to mess up the future. Beth

S.E. Jones - May 30, 2004 9:34 pm (#79 of 292)

We have already established two timelines and everything...

Okay, you lost me. Do you mean if Voldemort goes back in time it will establish two timelines?

Verschwinden Sie - May 31, 2004 10:58 am (#80 of 292)

First, I must ask where two timelines are established. Things have seemed consistent to me so far (as far as the timeline of Harry Potter goes). I could have missed it of course, and if I did, would someone please point out where they were established?

Just off the top of my head, I think the time travel theory may be unnecessarily complex, though. It seems more likely that a Death Eater (probably Peter Pettigrew) just picked up the wand. After all, we know from the Three Broomsticks conversation between Fudge, Flitwick, McGonagall, Madam Rosmerta, and Hagrid that Sirius Black was chasing Pettigrew (the MoM thought it was the other way around, but in any case, Black found Peter), and that he did show up in AWFULLY short order at the Potters' house after Voldemort had attacked them.

That suggests to me Black figured out Pettigrew had betrayed the Potters, and that Pettigrew made it to the Potters' and away again. Besides, it seems entirely in character that Peter Pettigrew would have wanted to be there when Voldemort killed the Potters because a) he liked playing the audience to more powerful wizards and this would have been a very good opportunity to do so and b) he would have wanted to be rewarded on the spot.

Nowhere in the books does it say there were any witnesses to Lily and James Potter being killed, so we don't know whether or not Voldemort showed up alone (though I get the impression Voldemort is never alone, since he has to have at least one follower with him to summon the others).

Sure, the scene from the first movie shows him going in alone, but Peter Pettigrew could have, and probably would have, gone as a rat (he wouldn't want to be seen there in case things went wrong... which they did).

That would leave him on the scene to retrieve Voldemort's wand when he went in to investigate after everything went down (after all, he would have known something was wrong when the house was suddenly destroyed and Voldemort didn't come back out).

In any case, how Voldemort got his wand back begs a bigger question. How did Dumbledore know to send Hagrid to retrieve Harry Potter and get him to safety before even the fire department could show up? I don't know about England, but if a house suddenly blew up here in America, the fire department would be sent, even if we couldn't see a fire at the time... and while they may not be the fastest people around (though they usually are), I would give them half an hour or less to Harry's house, which means Hagrid would have had to arrived very shortly after things went wrong to be able to pull Harry out of the ruins, comfort Sirius Black, and make his getaway on that motorbike. Add in the delay involved in Dumbledore contacting Hagrid and giving him instructions, and Hagrid's travel time to the Potters' (I'm not sure Hagrid can Apparate), and Dumbledore would have had to have known about Voldemort's demise, as well as the demise of the Potters, practically before they happened.

Makes one wonder... Hopefully J.K. Rowling will answer this one somewhere in book six or seven.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:44 pm

S.E. Jones - May 31, 2004 5:08 pm (#81 of 292)

If the house is out in the country, i.e. outside a town as the Weasleys' house is, it might take people time to realize that a house that wasn't there before (because of the Fidelius Charm) had suddenly appeared in ruins.....

Verschwinden Sie - May 31, 2004 6:44 pm (#82 of 292)

That's certainly true, but I got the feeling from the way the charm was described that the secret keeper could divulge the location of those being protected by the Fidelius Charm to other people legitimately and that only those people would know, but that betraying the secret would break the charm.

After all, everyone could see the Potters' house after Pettigrew betrayed them to Voldemort... but no indication was given that 12 Grimmauld Place had to be abandoned once Sirius Black died because it could suddenly be seen.

I also got the feeling that the Fidelius Charm was more about sort've making people look around something that was there than it was actively removing it... so I figure once the charm's broken people would simply remember that a house was there and it would be a smooth transition that people wouldn't go "Holy Monkey! Did you just see that house spring out of the ground?!" about.

Besides, from the way Dumbledore and McGonagall talked in the beginning of the first book, I was under the impression the Potters' house was in the village itself.

S.E. Jones - May 31, 2004 7:09 pm (#83 of 292)

Well, maybe it's because I'm from Oklahoma and we have a lot of rural towns here, but there are towns that are literally made up of several farms in close proximity to each other. On the Godric's Hollow thread we discussed what a Hollow is and what the town would look like. You might go there and check out what's been said.

As for the Fidelius Charm, why would Sirius dying break the charm on Grimmauld Place? The charm has Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper and protects the Order whose headquarters is at 12 Grimmauld Place. Sirius isn't needed for that equation to work. All he did was volunteer to let them use the place so him dying wouldn't affect the charm. I think the Potters dying is what broke the charm. Either that or the force of the rebounding AK. Technically, there is no difference between Peter telling McGonagall where the Potters are and telling Voldemort where the Potters are. In each case, it is the Secret-Keepers responsibility to tell or not tell the secret. The only difference would be the person who hears the secret's intent, to help or to hurt. So, I don't think that would be what would break the charm as it is all interpretation as to what constitutes "betraying"....

Verschwinden Sie - May 31, 2004 9:26 pm (#84 of 292)

Well, I actually grew up outside Altus, so I'm very familiar with the backwaters of Oklahoma. I picked 30 minutes because that's how long it took the fire department to get past the farms and out to our house after we called them because my mother's car caught fire. It might be beneficial to get someone who lives in a smaller township or village in England to shed some light on the matter for us (rumor has it that Godric's Hollow is loosely based on Lacock England, so if there's anyone out there who knows about what that village is like, it would shed a LOT of light on the matter).

As for the secret keeper matter, I don't think the Fidelius Charm broke because the Potters died for one simple reason. Not all the Potters died. Sure, James and Lily died, but I can't imagine they would have left Harry out of that secret. If the Potters' location was supposed to be kept secret and the only way to break the charm was the death of the Potters, then the location of Harry Potter should have remained a secret, and not a single soul that wasn't told by Peter Pettigrew where the Potters were should have been able to find them...

And since NO ONE except Sirius Black, the Potters, and Voldemort even knew Peter Pettigrew was the Potters' secret keeper, he couldn't have told anyone else so they could find the Potters. That means Harry would have been "unfindable" because the charm was still binding and no one else had been specifically told by the secret keeper where he could be found.

What THAT tells me is that something else has to break the charm, and the nature of the charm makes betrayal of the secret the most obvious answer as to what breaks it. The intent of the secret is ingrained within the soul that contains it. The intent of the telling is found within each time it's uttered. I think it entirely likely that uttering the secret with the intent of betraying what it's set to protect would break the charm, and it's very likely that the charm protecting the Potters broke because it was betrayed but the charm protecting Sirius's house remains because it wasn't.

And I don't think the intent of the person being told really counts for much beyond what they themselves can do, because I don't think they can betray the information to anyone else. After all, if they could, why did they have to stop and make sure Harry was told by Dumbledore where the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix was before they took him inside 12 Grimmauld Place? I would be willing to bet if someone for the Order who was in on the secret wanted to betray the Order, they couldn't do so because the house simply wouldn't be there for anyone who wasn't told the secret directly by Dumbledore himself.

To make a long story short, I think the only interpretation of betrayal important to the Fidelius Charm is whether or not there's a betrayal by the secret keeper, because it's within his sole soul the information, and thus the ability to betray it, resides.

S.E. Jones - May 31, 2004 9:39 pm (#85 of 292)

When we had a Fidelius Charm thread, someone suggested that the wording might have been such that it was the house that bore the brunt of the charm, so when the house was destroyed, the charm broke. However, we don't know when Peter told Voldemort exactly, which is what makes deciphering just how the charm works so very difficult.

It might be beneficial to get someone who lives in a smaller township or village in England to shed some light on the matter for us...

That's why I suggested the Godric's Hollow thread. We have some British members there who've been chatting back and forth about this.

taniwha - Jun 2, 2004 3:26 am (#86 of 292)
Edited by Jun 2, 2004 4:53 am

Is Godric's Hollow in England?

I always thought it was in Wales or Southern Ireland

Didn¡¦t Harry fall asleep flying over Bristol, as Bristol is an hour due West of Surrey and the other side of Bristol channel is Wales (Evans is a good welsh name). Slightly further West is Ireland. Admittedly Hagrid could have headed north or south to Bristol, and then headed east.

Personally I believe that the dark lord had a homing spell on his wand, to keep it safe.

I prefer the original version of Gof where Priori Incantatem brings out the spells in an unexpected order.

This could show, like the rest of the world, magic is not perfect. While the spell may over a short time give perfect results, over time impurities or other factors may affect the memory of any spell cast, for example, type and strength of the spell may have a greater effect on preserving the memory. As the same spell was cast three times, the dark lord would have put more effort into the first one, as there were two wizards there and was more focused on making sure it worked. The second, there was only one to worry about. Why put too much effort into attacking a baby. This is one possible reason why the memory of the spell were reversed.

Hence unlike many who take some parts of the book too literary, or don¡¦t consider there may be other factors, what someone sees or perceives may not be the truth or the full truth. I don¡¦t consider this to be a glitch.

Verschwinden Sie - Jun 2, 2004 11:39 am (#87 of 292)

They actually have a very good article on why Godric's Hollow is probably NOT in Wales over in the "Wizarding World" section of the Lexicon. I have to say, I agree with the writer of the article, as it makes a lot of sense that Dumbledore would not have Harry Potter brought straight from Godric's Hollow to the Dursley residence in Little Whinging.

There are those (especially in the Godric's Hollow thread) who insist extra precautions weren't needed when transporting Harry Potter because of the protections placed around him, but I'd like to note at this point the only protection Dumbledore (and anyone else in the books for that matter) seems to have placed directly on Harry Potter is the pact that protects him while he is in the care of Petunia Dursley (though we have to ask ourselves exactly when it was that Arabella Figg moved to such a close proximity to the Dursleys and got to know them).

That would suggest, since his safety wasn't assured before, that precautions were needed to secure Harry's safety while he was in transport, and to assure to some extent that Voldemort's forces weren't following Harry to his new home. This notion is also reinforced by the fact there was a 24 hour lapse between Harry being removed from his parents' house and being delivered to the Dursleys'.

Since the longest trip I can find across the UK to Surrey (that being from Thurso at the very tip top of N. Scotland to Surrey in S. England) is estimated at about 15 hours drive time, and we can assume flying is probably going to be faster simply due to the fact that a) you can fly straight if you want and b) there are less obstructions to stop you in the middle of the sky (no construction zones, no traffic clouds, no multi-broom pile-ups taking up the entire horizon ahead of you, and let's face it... when's the last time you had to stop and pay a toll on a rainbow bridge?). That means unless Godric's Hollow is somewhere near Oslo or Luxembourg, Hagrid didn't take a direct route from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, so I don't think we really have any idea where it is based on the fact Hagrid flew over Bristol. We just know he happened to fly over Bristol on the way to Little Whinging.

As for Godric's Hollow being in Wales because the name Evans is a good proper Welsh name... well, these things can get muddled. I'm a Native American from the boondocks of Oklahoma, and my last name is Buchanan. A good Scottish name if ever there was one, and I don't even have an ounce of Scottish blood in me.

Besides, J.K. Rowling established the name Evans in the vicinity of Little Whinging by putting Mark Evans in the neighborhood, and I get always got the impression from the books Petunia and Lily grew up in the area, if for no other reason than Petunia and Vernon live in the area, but Vernon commutes to another city for his job. The Dursleys', for all their complaining about the amount of money it costs to keep Harry, don't strike me as a family that has to worry about money (Vernon Dursley has a very good job, they live in a four bedroom house in a neighborhood that by all descriptions is upper middle class, Petunia need not work to bring money to the family, they have enough money to send Dudley to an exclusive private school, lavish expensive gifts on him, etc...) so I don't imagine they live there because they can't afford to live closer to his office.

The connections made in the wizarding world, on the other hand, seem to have Hogwarts in common (and that only indicates its students live somewhere in the greater UK). The one person whose residence we actually know of in the Harry Potter series (outside, of course, of Harry Potter, the staff of Hogwarts, and the Weasleys'... whose village of Ottery St. Catchpole isn't on the map, either) is Sirius Black, and he lives in London. Again, no help there...

So unless J.K. Rowling coughs up some more clues as to the location and nature of Godric's Hollow than "Voldemort showed up there last night...", I don't think we'll ever be able to pin down where it is.

Finally, as for Priori Incantatem, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe J.K. Rowling admitted she had just goofed up the order, and that it should have been Lily first, and then James that came out of Voldemort's wand.

Mare - Jun 2, 2004 1:01 pm (#88 of 292)

Nice essay Andrew. What can I add? (Except that I would like to have Godrics Hollow in Oslo, would put a nice spin on the tale...)

And off course, just like the flint on Flint (see "Bill and charlie how old are they?" thread) Lily and James' order of appearing has been changed in later editions. (For the few who didn't knew )

azi - Jun 3, 2004 11:19 am (#89 of 292)

Yes, the changing of the order was very amusing. They just swapped the names and he/she round to have James 'blossoming' out of a wand. I was in histerics the first time I read it. Smirking now actually. Smile

Accio Book Six - Jun 9, 2004 10:13 am (#90 of 292)

So she must have changed quite a bit to allow for Lily to come out first I suppose... does anyone have the quote? I'm at work now, but from what I remember, James comes out and prepares Harry to meet his mother. I just can't see Lily coming out first and saying the same thing to Harry.

Pity she had to change it, because I thought the way it was originally written (though incorrect by a technicality) was very touching and effective. Oh well.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:45 pm

S.E. Jones - Jun 9, 2004 6:33 pm (#91 of 292)

Accio Book Six: So she must have changed quite a bit to allow for Lily to come out first I suppose... does anyone have the quote?

Quote? You mean the correct wand order? Sure....

And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand... and Harry knew when he saw it who it would be... he knew, as though he had expected it from the moment when Cedric had appeared from the wand... knew, because the woman was the one he'd thought of more than any other tonight....

The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother.

Your father's coming... she said quietly. "Hold on for your father... it will be all right... hold on...."

And he came... first his head, then his body... tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife. He walked close to Harry, looking down at him, and he spoke in the same distant, echoing voice as the others, but quietly, so that Voldemort, his face now livid with fear as his victims prowled around him, could not hear....

Accio Book Six - Jun 10, 2004 7:05 pm (#92 of 292)

oh! it all makes sense now! hehe. Thanks for that. I didn't really think that she would have rewritten the scene or anything, but, I don't know... I guess when you're used to something one way, you can't picture it another until you see it with your own eyes.

haymoni - Jun 11, 2004 4:53 am (#93 of 292)

Accio - is that cat biting Harry's arm???

Accio Book Six - Jun 11, 2004 10:15 am (#94 of 292)

haha, I don't know! I just saw this picture in a gallery and loved it. There are some other gems like it, too. Unfortunatly I had to cut some of the best parts of the picture out to make it small enough, but I think Harry is supposed to be waving... with a cat behind his arm...

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 9:36 am (#95 of 292)

I don't know if anyone has seen the updates on JKR's site, but she updated her FAQ and put this up concerning the wand order mistake:

Q: At the end of ‘Goblet of Fire’, in which order should Harry’s parents have come out of the wand?
A: James first, then Lily. That’s how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time.

So, what could that mean in terms of the story, James dying after Lily? Or is she still sleep-deprived and doesn't realize that she needed to swap them around (unlikely)? I'm guessing there is some plot-twist coming that involves James dying later since she now says this which is opposite what all the other characters think, but didn't she say somewhere else that James died first? Didn't Voldemort say so as well?

Any thoughts?

Chemyst - Jun 28, 2004 1:04 pm (#96 of 292)

Also in the FAQ section about the books, in answer to the question about Harry seeing thestrals, we learn that Harry was in his cot and did not see his parents die. This invalidates the speculation in #524 that Lily was using both hands holding Harry and protecting him. --and relieves the mental images of baby Harry plummeting from her arms.

So, if James died last after Lily had already sacrificed herself --which we've always assumed coincided with the Harry deflecting the curse and Voldemort losing his body, then... either our timetable is wrong, or Voldemort did not directly kill James.

Mare - Jun 28, 2004 1:16 pm (#97 of 292)

James first than Lily. This is like in the original books, this is what roused the discussion. Mucho discussion.
Than the american editor saw it and changed it, and that is what we got now... but it should be changed back??

Or... The orginal one it was Lily first than James. the american editor changed it to James than Lily. Making that the first edition.
Mucho discussion.
Than a mistake was caught and it got changed back to Lily > James, and then... JKR lost her mind and tells us the wrong one is right?
That doesn't add up either...

HELP!!

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:19 pm (#98 of 292)

What I don't get is, I thought Voldemort mentioned killing James first and I thought JKR mentioned it in an interview somewhere. So, shouldn't he have come out of the wand after Lily like in the latter editions?

Mare - Jun 28, 2004 1:24 pm (#99 of 292)

Well, James could have died slowly. Therefore Voldemort did the act of killing James first, no wait.

It's the spells that come out of the wand, nothing else, so the spell to kill Lily was cast first . So maybe that one travelled longer...

(Rambling I know)

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:35 pm (#100 of 292)

Okay, you lost me....

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:47 pm

Mare - Jun 28, 2004 1:45 pm (#101 of 292)

If James came out of the wand first, than the spell to kill James was cast later. The spell to kill Lily should have been cast right before it.
James could still die before Lily, if he was simply AK'ed but a "slower killing" spell was used for Lily.

Capice?

Ginevra - Jun 28, 2004 2:46 pm (#102 of 292)

PS/SS pg. 294 American- "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you..." Voldemort

This is Voldemort's account of what happened, however a line earlier he told Harry that his parents died begging for mercy. So I'm not sure how accurate his version of events is.

I'm not really sure what to believe...

Wheezy - Jun 28, 2004 2:50 pm (#103 of 292)

This is my first post but I figured that it was about time for me to put in my opinion so here goes:

Is there a "slower killing spell" that we know of? To me, it seemed that Harry's parents were killed in the same manner because in PoA when Harry encounters the Dementors, he sees a flash of green light. Based on what we know from imposter-Moody's teaching, a blinding flash of green light accompanies the AK curse. So I would assume that his parents were killed with the same kind of curse.

I hope all that makes sense and has at least some relevance...

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 2:53 pm (#104 of 292)

Ginevra: PS/SS pg. 294 American- "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you..." Voldemort

This is Voldemort's account of what happened, however a line earlier he told Harry that his parents died begging for mercy. So I'm not sure how accurate his version of events is.

He also says that James died "straight-backed and proud" in GoF, so....

I could've sworn that JKR made a statement about the wand order before, stating that Voldemort killed James first then went after Lily. I believe this came up when some of us were discussing the fact that JKR, who wrote the flashback scene in the PS movie, didn't let them show James specifically....

I just re-read the part Ginevra quoted and Voldemort was trying to manipulate Harry with the "begging for mercy" line. When it doesn't work he drops the "story" and seems to be telling the truth....

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 3:18 pm (#105 of 292)

I think JKR is under too much stress and has lost her bloody marbles. She needs to get a vacation home in Majorca.

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 3:36 pm (#106 of 292)

We're having a very interesting discussion on the 'Was Snape at Godric's Hollow' thread concerning this topic.

From one of my posts there:

When we had discussed the scene in PS (which JKR wrote so I, at least, consider it mostly canon), we discussed the possibility that Voldemort simply knocked James aside and proceeded straight to Harry (and thus Lily). In the scene Lily is seen slamming the door on someone and screaming what appears to be "James" as the person in front of her turns around. We had theorized before that she was screaming to James, perhaps at the bottom of the stairs, who was recovering and coming back to stop Voldemort (at the top of the stairs). Now, if this was all true, Voldemort may have proceeded to simply knock James aside like a bothersome fly (yet again) and focus on his intended target - Harry. Thus, he kills Lily to get to Harry, James comes running in, gets killed, and then, finally, Voldemort attempts to AK Harry and it rebounds.....

Ginevra - Jun 28, 2004 3:52 pm (#107 of 292)

SE, I think that is very possible. That explanation makes the most sense to me so far. I was only pointing out the "begging for mercy" part to show that Voldemort is a liar so we can't necessarily believe his version of events.

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 3:53 pm (#108 of 292)

That sounds very sensible to me, Sarah.

She has dug a hole for herself, though, with the quote from Voldemort in SS saying "I killed your father first..." I suppose we can say Voldemort was just lying, simply making up a story to try to goad Harry. Do you reckon that at the time JKR wrote SS, she wasn't exactly sure herself which one got killed first? Maybe she was going back and forth with two options, and then when she did the GoF wand-order thing, she had forgotten about that Voldemort quote in SS?

Your above scenario fits admirably, though, if we can just discount Voldemort's quote. I say let's do it! ***waves wand - "Voldemort never said that!*** There. Done.

Marye Lupin - Jun 28, 2004 4:43 pm (#109 of 292)

I personally think that JKR was sleep deprived or convused when she made the website update (after all it is fairly confusing to think about)-- she might have meant to say James died first then Lily. I can't believe that if Lily died first she wouldn't have made that correction before now. After all GoF came out four years ago and the "corrected" version of GoF has been out at least three years hasn't it? I don't know... I guess I could be wrong.

Kip Carter - Jun 28, 2004 4:48 pm (#110 of 292)

One point that you may need to consider is that Voldemort may not remember his facts as well as he thinks when he speaks to Harry. Remember also we are hearing this from Harry's viewpoint.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:48 pm

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 5:03 pm (#111 of 292)

I agree with Marye, it seems like a long time to let go by without correcting the error. I guess, though, maybe she was hoping nobody would notice? (HA!) I mean, there's a LOT of copies of books out there that are wrong, how exactly do you go about correcting that? She can't exactly publish a new page and send it out to all the bookstores and announce "Everyone please turn to page 667 of your American copies of GoF....all right now, peel off the self-stick backing from the back of your new page, and insert it on top of page 667 in your book. Thank you very much for your time and patience, and sorry for causing everyone three years of headaches in trying to figure this out."

Spooky - Jun 28, 2004 5:15 pm (#112 of 292)

Is it possible that James indeed received a fatal blow from Voldemort, but he nonetheless managed to linger on and was still alive (albeit fading rapidly) after Lily had been killed instantly?

Hermy1982 - Jun 28, 2004 8:06 pm (#113 of 292)

Or, is it possible that Voldemort truly thought he had delivered a fatal blow to James but James somehow survived? Maybe Voldemort believed that he killed James but he was mistaken. Voldemort possibly didn't realize he was wrong when he said, "I killed your father first...".

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 8:28 pm (#114 of 292)

That's what I think, Hermy1982. I wouldn't have thought it until I read the 'battle scene' from OoP, though. All those curses flying around that were deflected or blocked by the statues, etc. -- you could easily think you hit somebody when in fact you'd missed, or just "winged" them or something.

Except then, if Voldy thought that, then he must not have finished James off, or he'd have known he didn't succeed in killing James "first." So then, who DID finish him off? Hmmmm.... here we go again...

Julia. - Jun 28, 2004 8:55 pm (#115 of 292)

Just to go back a few posts, I too remember reading that JRK said that Voldie killed James then Lily, and I will find that quote, even if I have to read every interview on Quick Quotes. I'm off to do just that, I'll post it as soon as I find it, just hope I make it back before the edit time runs out...

Julia. - Jun 28, 2004 11:46 pm (#116 of 292)

I give up. I've been sitting here for three hours, and I can't find that darn quote! Grrrrr!

Mare - Jun 29, 2004 2:38 am (#117 of 292)

But the thing is, it's not about who got killed first. With the priori incantatem it is about which spell got cast first. Two different things, lots of possible scenario's...

septentrion - Jun 29, 2004 3:57 am (#118 of 292)

I've posted the following in the "was Snape at GH that Night ?", I think it fits in this thread :

I was checking GoF for the curses which emerged from LV's wand (ch priori incantatum) to see if the Harry's AK came out before or after James's ghost but that curse didn't came out of LV's wand ! In my american edition, the curses are, in this order : the cruciatus curse cast upon Harry, Wormtail's fake hand, Cedric Diggory, Franck Bryce, Bertha Jorkins, Lily and James. We know these two last must be reversed, but where is the AK destined to Harry ?

After having read the posts above, I'm not sure anymore if the curses against Lily and James have to be reversed, but surely the AK against Harry is missing.

Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 5:22 am (#119 of 292)

I think JKR is under too much stress and has lost her bloody marbles. She needs to get a vacation home in Majorca. -- Madam Pince

I must agree wholeheartedly. I confess that I don't haunt her website much and have just learned about this issue. I'm so flabbergasted I can't really think of what to say except: "What the bloody hell?"

Oh, and I only agree with the vacation home so long as she takes her lap top (typewriter, whatever she uses) with her. It would probably do well for her to have an internet connection with a direct link to this forum as well. :0

Marcus Aurelius Ravenclaw - Jun 29, 2004 5:56 am (#120 of 292)

agreed, agreed!

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:48 pm

Marye Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 6:28 am (#121 of 292)

Well she changed it (again): now it says Lily comes out first then James!

Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 6:35 am (#122 of 292)

Well, she does seem like she's in a bit of a need for a break. I mean, no offense to the Lexicon, but the author's gotta be feeling slightly burned out about their job when they check on a fansite (no matter how good the fansite is) rather than looking something up in their notes.

Mare - Jun 29, 2004 7:08 am (#123 of 292)

Anrew, she that at that moment she had no notes or books with her.

Mare - Jun 29, 2004 7:21 am (#124 of 292)

Marye is right, it now says "Lily first and than James" there goes all the theories and fun. I wonder if at some point she is going to edit that piece of tekst, because now in later editions they just swapped names and it doesn't really fit right...

Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 8:17 am (#125 of 292)

I'm so confused.......

Marye Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 7:28 am (#121 of 124) "Life is way too short to stay on topic"

Hehe...

Sconie Girl - Jul 1, 2004 4:53 am (#126 of 292)

I tried to figure this out on the bus home last night....and just became more confused!

So if it's Lily first then James...James died first...RIGHT????

I think I need to go back to bed!

S.E. Jones - Jul 1, 2004 11:43 am (#127 of 292)

Right.

Madam Pince - Jul 1, 2004 5:10 pm (#128 of 292)

If she's changed it yet again (I haven't been to her site yet today, so I'm going by what people have said here), then I am seriously beginning to worry about her!

I mean, in the supposed "correction" a few days ago, she very specifically mentioned that the American editor who caught the mistake had done so in error, so therefore the American editions (showing that James was killed first) were wrong. Now she's reversing that? So it's not like she just mis-spoke, or mixed up the names "James" and "Lily," because she definitely thought the American editor was wrong. Now she's saying the editor was right? So James did in fact get killed first? Grrrrrr....

If she's doing this just to mess with our heads, I'll.... I'll.... well, I'll do something, I don't know what yet. I probably would know, except for the fact that my head is now so messed up.

Dumbledore - Jul 1, 2004 5:13 pm (#129 of 292)

I think the official thing is (according to JKR's website) is that Lily should have come out of the wand first, meaning that James was killed first.

Fawkes Forever - Jul 2, 2004 1:39 am (#130 of 292)

Was the wand order mistake only in the US first editions of GoF, or was it in both UK & US versions... because I don't remember ever seeing it in my sisters copy (UK) At least I think she has a first edition... I'll check tonight.... My own copy is the paperback version....

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Christina Keimig - Jul 2, 2004 4:10 pm (#131 of 292)

My copy had no such error, but I bought the paperback version. James had to die first--can you honestly imagine him letting his wife and son be attacked without trying to defend them? And in Book 3 we hear him tell Lily to take Harry and run, that he'll try and hold him off. Therefore, she comes out of the wand first, as hers was the more recent death.

Christina Keimig - Jul 2, 2004 4:16 pm (#132 of 292)

The only explanation I can think of for this (crossed my mind as well--how'd he get his own wand back?) was that Peter got it for him...but how could they find it after what happened at the Potters'?

My big problem with book four is yet another. It has to do with the (oh-so-complicated) Polyjuice Potion Barty Crouch takes during the entire book to allow him to impersonate Moody. As we learn in book 2 (CoS), it takes about a month to brew up. So how on EARTH can Barty and Peter have whipped it up in the day and a half (maximum) they had between the Quidditch World Cup and the attack on Moody?? Unless Peter was brewing it all along the route from Albania, in addition to milking Nagini to feed Voldemort and travelling who knows how, it's just not possible for them to have had it all ready.

Somehow I doubt they had a time-turner and turned it back a month...or that you can buy ready-stewed lacewings and pre-under-the-full-moon-picked tuftgrass at your local potion ingredients shop, but I could be (and hope I am!) wrong... Although there would still be an error in that Barty, under the influence of Veritaserum, said he and Peter had made the potion before going to Moody's house...

Comments???

Kip Carter - Jul 2, 2004 6:22 pm (#133 of 292)

One possible thought should be considered! Voldemort knows all the people who are proficient in the Dark Arts. Could there be someone or a group of wizards/witches who keep a ready supply of Polyjuice Potion available among other potions that could be useful in the Dark Arts? If so, I am sure Voldemort would be able to secure as much as needed to get Barty Crouch through the initial period until he has the resources to produce it himself (Barty, now as Moody)!

At least this is something to think about! It's a very simple answer, similar to the society in which we live. Remember this happened in the mid 1990's in London (one of the largest cities in the world) and I am sure there were wizards there who would do almost anything to survive. Like I said, think about it!

DJ Evans - Jul 2, 2004 6:35 pm (#134 of 292)

Kip, it's usually the simple answers that are the hardest to come up with sometimes!!! And I think in the world of JKR that is even more true in certain areas. You could very well be right with the ready made Polyjuice Potion. Or maybe even Borgin & Burkes has a ready supply of it just for those emergencies? (Just hope if it has an expiration date--that they pay attention to that or maybe I should say I hope they "don't" pay attention, in case it should backfire on them? hee hee) And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they (D.E.'s) don't have a collection of hair (or whatever) from each of the good guys!

Later, Deb

S.E. Jones - Jul 2, 2004 7:49 pm (#135 of 292)

Fawkes Forever: Was the wand order mistake only in the US first editions of GoF, or was it in both UK & US versions...

For the record, the "mistaken" order, in which James comes out of the wand first, appears in the first US editions of GoF, and it was later changed so that Lily came out first instead.

azi - Jul 3, 2004 12:01 pm (#136 of 292)

The mistake was also in my UK first edition.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 3, 2004 4:27 pm (#137 of 292)

This is the current quote from J.K. Rowling's site

Lily first, then James. That’s how it appears in my original manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time.

If this is the case doesn't that infer that James was killed before Lily since the echoes appeared in reverse order. So that out of the wand would come in this order:

1. Cedric Diggory 2. Frank Bryce 3. Bertha Jorkins 4. Lily Potter 5. James Potter

Best Regards, Nathan

haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 4:46 pm (#138 of 292)

Isn't the silver hand in there somewhere?

And I agree with whomever said it - where is the AK Voldy used on Harry?

riddikulus - Jul 3, 2004 10:39 pm (#139 of 292)

YES yes yes... this is what i've been talking about, at length, since GoF. I'm so glad to see this somewhere else, and wonder why no one else seems to find this odd(or the fact that harry was able to carry cedric back using the portkey without cedric touching it, odd) but sorry, back to the point... If this doesnt get answered, which i'm convinced it will in book 6, then it's a huge mistake. Voldy says he lost his body, had to live in snakes and such... no arms, no ability to carry anything, let alone a wand... after the aveda kedavra. so... how HOW did he get his wand back to use against Harry all those years later? Did someone have it the whole time and was able to get it back to him and if so who? Who else was in the house that night and took the wand for him? If this is not a mistake... then this person will be a huge deal in the coming books. Who was at the house... hmmmm Wormtail, sirius, snape, hagrid... hmmmm

S.E. Jones - Jul 3, 2004 11:22 pm (#140 of 292)

I've heard some interesting possibilities surrounding the question of Voldemort's wand. One is that Peter was there that night (whether known by Voldemort or not) and he picked the wand up after the AK backfired. Another was that Peter stole the wand, after returning to England with Voldemort from where it was being kept in the MoM. Yet another was that Voldemort's body didn't "die" initially when the house exploded, but was greatly injured and he fled somewhere else where his body then died and Peter later recovered the wand from that place on Voldemort's orders after returning to England in GoF.

Out of all of those possibilities, I think I favor the second one personally as it seems very logical somehow....

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 2:49 am (#141 of 292)

Perhaps Peter never did actually "tell" Voldemort where the house was. What if he took Voldemort to the door, knocked on the door, and went to go hide. When James opened the door, he could only see Voldemort.

Voldemort killed James, went upstairs to kill Lily (although I'm still not sure why Voldemort wasn't too fond of killing her; maybe, in the back of his mind, he was aware of the possibility of ancient magic?) Then he tried to kill Harry. When the spell backfired, the wand either didn't register the spell, or it didn't recognize it and therefore was unable to register it. Harry's cot must have had protections around it, so even if the house did crumble, he'd be safe.

Peter saw what happened, to a certain extent, and rushed into the house as a rat in order to get through the rubble, picked up the wand and ran, later to run into Sirius. Since the Fidelius Charm, IMHO, hides the house, once the house "broke", so did the charm. The people who walked past the house previously simply hadn't noticed it, just as muggles don't notice the Leaky Cauldron.

Right, so that's my opinion. Feel free to criticise.

S.E. Jones - Jul 4, 2004 10:11 am (#142 of 292)

He had to have told him or the Fidelius Charm couldn't have broken as far as Voldemort was concerned. He still wouldn't have been able to see the house unless Peter told him where to find it.....

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 4, 2004 12:42 pm (#143 of 292)

Speaking of the AK spell attempted on Harry and the creation of Pettigrew's new hand. There are three possible explanations as to why they were absent from the regurgitated spells.

Possibility 1. The spells were intentionally left out because, it will become important in books 6 and 7.

Possibility 2. The spells were unintentionally left out. Thus, creating another error in editing process akin to the wand error question.

The third possibility only applies to the AK spell attempted on Harry by Voldemort.

Possibility 3. The AK attempted on Harry was not included because, it was an incomplete spell. I have often wondered whether spells which fail or are incomplete are not included in the regurgitation effect.

Best Regards, Nathan

Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 1:33 pm (#144 of 292)

Nathan, I agree with you on the third possibility. It does seem likely that spells that fail to "fulfill their purpose" won't be counted as spells. Like I mentioned in post 141, when the spell backfired, the wand might have either not registered the spell, or it wasnt able to recognize it and therefore was unable to register it.

But back to the Fidelius Charm. Technically, Peter had betrayed the secret by going up to the door with Voldemort and knocking on it. Do the words have to be said out loud?

Anna L. Black - Jul 5, 2004 12:07 am (#145 of 292)

I think that the answer is yes, the words have to be said out loud (or written). Fliwick says in PoA:

As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"

It means that if Peter didn't tell Voldemort about it, Voldemort wouldn't be able to see Lily and James. I believe that the charm wasn't placed on their house, but on Lily and James themselves, so the problem was seeing them, not seeing the house.

Christina Keimig - Jul 5, 2004 5:57 am (#146 of 292)

In my copy of GoF, the hand also is regurgitated...and in the correct order (after Cedric comes out).

Dumbledore - Jul 5, 2004 7:14 am (#147 of 292)

Mine as well...

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 5, 2004 9:58 am (#148 of 292)

Anna L. Black, that is true but, it has been expanded ever so slightly by Order of the Phoenix.

Here, Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of paperof parchment toward Harry's Disillusioned hand hold his lit wand close to it, so as to illuminate the writing. "Read quickly and memorize." The narrow handwriting was vaugely familiar. It said: The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London..."But where's--?""Think about what you've just memorized," said Lupin quietly, Harry thought, and no sooner had he reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld Place, than a battered door emerged out of nowhere between numbers eleven and thirteen , followed swiftly dirty walls and grimy windows.

Pages 91-94 of Order of the Phoenix Large print edition printed by Thorndike Press.

Since, all Harry had to do was to read memorize and think about what he had just mmemorized. It is possible that the location of the Potter's house could have been revealed by either Peter telling Voldemort its location. Or its location could have been revealed by writing a note in the same fashion as Dumbledore did to enable Harry to find 12 Grimmauld Place.

Best Regards Nathan

S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 4:31 pm (#149 of 292)

Precisely, Nathan. Peter couldn't have just led him there and pointed, he would've had to say or write out "the Potters are here"....

I don't think it was them, but the house that was under the Fidelius Charm. If it was just them, nearby Muggles (and Wizards) would've found it odd, the lights coming on and off by themselves, etc, because they wouldn't be able to see the Potters but would see the Potters' house. I think the spell must've been on the house also. I think Flitwick phrased it the way he did because the spell doesn't make the physical object cease to exist (i.e. it is still there), it just makes it mentally non-existant to anyone not in on the secret (i.e. they don't see it), much like the Leaky Cauldron. With the Leaky Cauldron, Muggles walk from one store front to the LC to the next store front, but all the Muggle actually sees (all that actually mentally exists for the Muggle) is the two store fronts. Likewise, the house's window would still actually exist and so you could press your face against it but you wouldn't see it or the room beyond or the people in the room because for you, in your mind, it doesn't exist because of the spell....

Aisha Ahsia - Jul 18, 2004 11:29 am (#150 of 292)

Hi I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if I know how to use it yet. Anyway, I don't think this has been mentioned before. I might of course be totally wrong about this too. my point is: (drumroll...) In GoF, how could anyone in 6th year have put their names into the Goblet? You would have to be 17, right? I know Angelina said she was 17 in October, but wouldn't that make her a year older than Fred and George who were in the same year? the tournament started in october, but none of the 6th years could possibly be 17 until after Dec 31th? I mean; think about it. In Harry's 6th year, Harry and everyone born before Dec 31th will be 16 in october, and the rest would be 15. If Fred and Geroge turned 16 on April 1st the year of the Triwizard tournament, how could Anelina who is in the same year turn 17??

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:52 pm

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 11:45 am (#151 of 292)

I mean; think about it. In Harry's 6th year, Harry and everyone born before Dec 31th will be 16 in october, and the rest would be 15.

Harry is one of the youngest in his class. The cut-off date for schools is at the beginning of the school year, not Dec. 31st. You need to be (or be turning) 16 by the end of September in order to be a sixth year student.

Everyone born from end of June/beginning of July to approximately Sept 20th (Hermione's b-day is the 19th) will stay 16 throughout their 6th year. In other words, all the summer births. Harry was 16 when he entered his sixth year. Hermione was just turning 16 when she entered her sixth year.

Everyone born after the end of September will turn 17 at some point during the school year. Ron was 16 when he started his sixth year and turned 17 in March.

Angelina's birthday is in October. Therefore, she started her sixth year as a 16 year old, but she only stayed a 16 year old for two months.

S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 4:42 pm (#152 of 292)

Well, the cut-off date is either the end of September or the begining of October. I don't think we actually know when, do we? Anyway, it's somewhere around there (September 20-first two weeks of October).

Warty Harris - Jul 18, 2004 7:56 pm (#153 of 292)

I would just point out that Peter was not at his hideout the night the Potters died. This means he went somewhere. He could have went into hiding or he could have gone to Godric's Hollow with Voldemort and then went to get his wand from the Rubble. Hagrid may have even retrieved the wand at some point but didn't take it with him assuming another witch or wizard would come to the home to collect Lily and James things.

Peter or another Death Eater could have stolen it from the Ministry. This seems like it would be dangerous and hard to do. I would think if the Ministry had it they would destroy it. It was used to murder people and we know they snap wands of expelled students.

JK Powers - Jul 18, 2004 9:39 pm (#154 of 292)

It is possible they would have kept it to study the "prior incantations" to determine what spells Voldemort had cast to implcate or clear other accussed death eaters. Possibly this is how they found out who were suspects, and if they were actually under the controlling curses.

Warty Harris - Jul 19, 2004 10:44 am (#155 of 292)

Good point JK Powers. That may answer the question on how they knew. They were certain that the young Crouch was a Death Eater even though he strongly denied it.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2004 2:22 pm (#156 of 292)

If such a system of checking wands is in place. It raises the question as to how Sirius Black ended up remaining incarcerated in Azkaban.

If the ministry of magic were able to regurgitate the spells cast by a wizard they had captured. The absence of the curses used to kill the the twelve muggles and Peter Pettigrew would have definitively proved his innocence.

Best Regards, Nathan

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 19, 2004 2:34 pm (#157 of 292)

I think there's an answer to the theory of holding Voldemort's wand to find out about what Imperius Curses it cast during the Priori Incantatem that happens at the end of GoF.

If you'll recall, Voldemort cast the Imperius Curse on Harry during their duel in the graveyard. However, during the Priori Incantatem on Voldemort's wand, you see no direct evidence of the Imperius Curse being cast on Harry coming out of Voldemort's wand. Unlike the Avada Kedavra curses, there was no trace of Harry appearing out of Voldemort's wands, and no trace of the screams you hear Voldemort's wand make to mark the Cruciatus Curses he performed.

Considering that, I would say the Imperius Curse is a spell that doesn't leave any demonstrable effect for a wand to regurgitate, so there wouldn't really be any way to gauge who was and wasn't under the Imperius Curse by holding onto Voldemort's wand.

Besides, if the Ministry of Magic had Voldemort's wand, it would beg the larger question of "How did Voldemort get it back from the Ministry of Magic?" Surely Lucius Malfoy wouldn't go buying it back from them, especially in the light of being an accused Death Eater. I mean, it's not like he could pass off his interest in the wand as "collectible" interest. That'd be a bit like an accused Nazi saying he was only interested in Third Reich relics for their collectible value. No one would believe it.

On the subject of Barty Crouch Jr., I don't think the Ministry of Magic was really all that certain about his guilt as much as they were simply caught up in the zeal of catching and imprisoning anyone associated with the stigma of being a Death Eater. Let's face it, when you have people being carted off to Azkaban without the pleasure of a trial before being unceremoniously thrown to the Dementors, the quest for justice has turned into a bit of a witch hunt (no pun intended). If you want proof of that, look no farther than Sirius Black.

I think Barty Crouch Jr. was convicted the moment he was caught with Bellatrix, Rabastan, and Rodolphus Lestrange. Even if the Longbottoms hadn't fingered him (and I believe at some point they say Frank and Alice Longbottom did name him as one of their torturers), Crouch Sr. would have argued that Junior's being with the Lestranges was proof positive in and of itself and just glossed over the fact he wasn't mentioned with everyone else.

On a final note, there are other questions involving wands we should be asking amongst all our speculation of where Voldemort's wand went. There were two other magic wands in that house the night Harry Potter was pulled out of it. Since we know where Voldemort's wand ended up, shouldn't we be slightly curious as to where James and Lily Potter's wands ended up?

Edit: Saw your post after I posted mine, Nathan... you're right, the absence of the curse used to kill the muggles and Peter Pettigrew should've proved his innocence. I always figured it was a matter of the Ministry of Magic simply skipping due process rather than an inability to check to see if his wand caused the spell. From the way it was described, I've always gotten the feeling the Ministry didn't bother to take the time to do even that minimal little thing.

Warty Harris - Jul 19, 2004 2:54 pm (#158 of 292)

I just thought of something else. Bertha Jorkins came out of the wand as well. She was killed while they were in Albania correct? Then Peter must have had the wand and taken it with him to Voldemort in Albania.

Warty Harris - Jul 19, 2004 3:46 pm (#159 of 292)

From the Lexicon When Harry Potter was captured, it was Peter who killed Cedric Diggory, who bound Harry, who set up the cauldron over the fire, and who cut Harry's arm for blood for the potion. Peter then cut off his own right hand to add to the potion. From that horrible mixture, the Dark Lord was reborn in his old body. He cast a spell which created a new shining and powerful hand for Pettigrew.

I am almost certain that Peter was the one who had the wand. I do wonder what happened to his own wand. He may have blown it up to hide the last spell that came from it. He could have stolen it from the Ministry of Magic while visiting with Ron or Percy. I think it most likely he had the wand with him since the James and Lily were killed and returned it to Voldemort in Albania.

schoff - Jul 19, 2004 8:03 pm (#160 of 292)

Nathan Zimmermann: It raises the question as to how Sirius Black ended up remaining incarcerated in Azkaban.

Considering Crouch put Sirius in jail without even giving him a trial, I'm in agreement with Andrew. They trod all over his due process rights and probably didn't care.

Warty Harris: Bertha Jorkins came out of the wand as well. She was killed while they were in Albania correct? Then Peter must have had the wand and taken it with him to Voldemort in Albania.

Bertha wasn't killed until after Wormtail gave her to Voldemort. It's still possible Voldemort had his wand before Wormtail showed up.

If Wormtail had Voldemort's wand, I can't imagine him not using it--especially for creature comforts like decent food. Wormtail doesn't like to suffer-he takes the easy way whenever possible.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:53 pm

S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 8:14 pm (#161 of 292)

I can see him not using it. It's Voldemort's wand, afterall. What if something happened to it? What if Voldemort found out he was using his wand without permission? Wormtail would be far to scared of what his master would do to him after returning to power (and I do think he'd think that far ahead, he picked a wizarding family with the purpose in mind of listening for information for Voldemort after all) if he did something Voldemort wouldn't approve of.

Warty Harris - Jul 19, 2004 8:35 pm (#162 of 292)

Voldemort could not hold anything until the potions were brewed. Peter did this for him while in Albania. I got the impression the grotesque half body/miniature alien thing that Voldemort was at the beginning of Goblet of Fire came about because Peter nursed him back to health. Before this he was a wisp of air ala Philosopher's Stone. He couldn't hold his wand.

If Voldemort could hold his wand somehow and take it with him to Albania, then he could use it to kill people. As soon as he became grotesque half human/miniature alien notice how he killed someone. Yet we know he never killed anyone with this wand until Bertha Jorkins. He probably couldn't hold the wand because he had no hands until Peter Brewed the potions for him. I would think Peter brought it with him. Maybe Bertha told them where it was in the Ministry but I doubt it. If the Ministry had it they most likely would have destroyed it.

I do not think Peter always takes the easy way out. He could have ran away somewhere after Voldemorts downfall yet he stayed as a rat trying to help his master when there wasn't anything in it for him. He could have ran away to a tropical Island and no one would have known if he were careful. Instead he brought back the Dark Lord...that little rat.

Why wouldn't Voldemort use the wand for creature comforts? Why wouldn't Voldemort brew potions for himself? If Voldemort knew where the wand was (if Peter didn't have it) then why not ask Quirrell to get it for him? I think the answer is Peter had the wand because his Master had no hands to hold on to it.

zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 12:10 am (#163 of 292)

Actually, whatever shape Voldemort had taken, he was fully capable of using his own wand.

GF Ch 1: - And then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it.... He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised its wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor."

So Voldemort used his own wand when he killed Frank Bryce.

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 12:29 am (#164 of 292)

The thing about whether or not Voldemort could use his wand, of course, hinges on whether or not he had a corporeal body just yet. As we find out at the beginning of GoF, he's been returned to one, so yes... he's using his wand.

However, he says during his little diatribe to his Death Eaters, and I quote:

Wormtail's body, of course, was ill adapted for possession, as all assumed him dead, and would attract far too much attention if noticed. However, he was the able-bodied servant I needed, and, poor wizard though he is, Wormtail was able to follow the instructions I gave him, which would return me to a rudimentary, weak body of my own, a body I would be able to inhabit while arranging the essential ingredients for true rebirth...

SO! Voldemort, while being able to use his wand come the beginning of GoF, was without the power to use a wand until such time as Peter Pettigrew actually fashioned him a new body to hold it with... which we know had to have taken place just about a month before the Quidditch World Cup.

Up until that point, the wand had to be in someone else's possession, because Voldemort couldn't have carried it to Albania with him (if he could have carried it all the way across Europe, surely he would've been able to hold onto it long enough to pull off a spell or two).

Since the wand re-enters the picture when Voldemort's body is returned, and since the only servant who has returned to him by that time is Peter Pettigrew, then logic would have it that Peter Pettigrew would had to have had possession of it in the first place... and of course that supports the notion that he's had it all along. I mean, J.K. Rowling doesn't make it sound like he made a pit stop anywhere on his way to Albania, does she?

As for using the wand for creature comforts and what not... no, I don't think that Peter Pettigrew would have used Voldemort's wand. Oh, it's not so much that it's VOLDEMORT'S wand, mind you... but it'd be awfully strange and suspicion rousing if a rat started conjuring up things, and Peter Pettigrew was so desperate to avoid attracting any attention to himself that he masqueraded as a RAT for twelve years, folks... and the most boring rat imaginable, at that. Being a rat wasn't good enough. He had to be a rat that pretended to spend all its time asleep.

If he was paranoid enough to spend over a decade as a narcoleptic rodent, I can see where he might avoid using magic in any way, shape, or form, even if he's got a little hot rod of a wand like Voldemort's on him.

Now, who wants to see me get him out of that little "Marauder's Map" problem? MWA HA HA HAH!!!

ShelterGirl - Jul 20, 2004 4:35 am (#165 of 292)

Now, who wants to see me get him out of that little Marauder's Map" problem? MWA HA HA HAH!!!"

(quietly raises hand, looks around...)

I do Andrew. Smile

ShelterGirl

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 7:24 am (#166 of 292)

Okay, in my humble opinion, this is the way out of the "Marauder's Map" problem.

The Marauder's Map, as we all know, lists everyone in Hogwarts or on the Hogwarts grounds by name and location. The thing we have to ask ourselves is "why does it list them by the names it does?"

The obvious answer, of course, is because that's what their names are. For instance, it lists Harry Potter as Harry Potter because his name is, well, Harry Potter. This begs another question, though, and while it has an equally obvious answer, it has a good bit of bearing on this argument. The question is "why is Harry Potter's name Harry Potter?"

Of course it's his name because that's the name someone gave to him. So, we know the Marauder's Map goes by the name people are given.

Also, the Marauder's Map allows a bit of leeway about people's names when it lists them on the map. For instance, looking at Harry again, it lists him as Harry Potter. It doesn't list him as Harry James Potter, which is actually what his name is. Likewise, it doesn't list the Headmaster of Hogwarts as Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. The Marauder's Map just calls them Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, because those are the names most commonly associated with those two people (which is why it doesn't change the names of people based on nicknames, snide wordplays, etc.).

Now for Peter Pettigrew. While in animal form, none of the other animagi on the Hogwarts grounds had any other identity than their own. Naturally, should they be listed at all, they would be listed by the Marauder's Map as the identities they are known by.

There's a bit of a separation between them and Peter Pettigrew, though, in that Peter Pettigrew DID have another name while he was in animal form. He was given a name by the Weasley family while he was in rat form. He was given the name Scabbers. Not only was that his official name as a rat, but it's also the name he was known by.

So by both of those criteria, during his twelve year stint as a rat(except for the last night he was there), he would have simply been known as Scabbers, and not as Peter Pettigrew.

The only time this would have changed would be on his last night there, when Sirius Black officially caught up to Peter (the night in the dormitory doesn't count because Sirius Black didn't actually find Scabbers). Once the connection was made between both his animal and human form, the map should have changed its designation from Scabbers to Peter Pettigrew.

colbow - Jul 20, 2004 9:02 am (#167 of 292)

Yes, Andrew , once Scabbers was known to be Peter Pettigew then his name offically changed on the Marauder's map! Excellent! Before he was thought to be a just a rat known as Scabbers, nothing more........

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 20, 2004 9:31 am (#168 of 292)

If it is the case that once Peter Pettigrew's true identity were revealled that he would be shown on the map as Wormtail as well? Depending on the form he takes.

This however, assumes that the Marauder's Map is endowed with a certain level of intelligence akin to that demonstrated by the Sorting Hat.

Best Regards, Nathan

haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 10:00 am (#169 of 292)

I wonder if it has to do with who is looking at the map.

The Twins knew Peter as Scabbers but Lupin knew him as Peter.

prof sprout - Jul 20, 2004 11:19 am (#170 of 292)

Well, that wouldn't actually matter, if it is how they knew him, because the fake Mad Eye Moody aka Barty Crouch Jr. Showed up as Barthelmow (sp?) Crouch, when Harry was noticed him in Snape's office. I like the idea that Andrew had, Andrew are you sure you are not JKR in hiding? Surprised

)

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:55 pm

Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 11:21 am (#171 of 292)

Back to Voldemort. Clearly Voldemort didn't have a body and didn't have a hand to use his wand. This is why Wormtail had to make him one. It clearly states that in the book. This grotesque body was made only as a temporary one. He had this body in Albania before he killed Frank Bryce.

zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 11:26 am (#172 of 292)

Andrew, I read that part about Voldemort's body too. I thought the question was whether or not he had - before the Grand Rebirthing - at some point been able to use his wand and thus put to rest who would be responsible for what spells emerged during the Priori Incatatem.
With our combined information then, we can conclude that the spells came out like this:
Screams of pain (Harry's and Avery's) - Voldemort
Smoky hand - Voldemort
More shouts of pain (Harry's ?) - Voldemort
Cedric Diggory - Wormtail
Screams of pain (unknown victims, maybe?) - could have been either Wormtail or Voldemort
Frank Bryce - Voldemort
Bertha Jorkins - probably Wormtail
Harry's parents - Voldemort (although there are those who argue that it wasn't he, but someone else using his wand)
Not sure any of this really matters but there it is.

Aisha Ahsia - Jul 20, 2004 12:24 pm (#173 of 292)

Ok, I'm sorry. I thought about this later, you know that maybe this system is different in the U.K.

Thanks for clearing that up for me:)

Courtney22 - Jul 20, 2004 1:20 pm (#174 of 292)

If he was paranoid enough to spend over a decade as a narcoleptic rodent...

I don't know why but I love that image... a narcoleptic rodent...that made me cry I was laughing so hard Smile

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 3:50 pm (#175 of 292)

As near as I can make out on the usage of Voldemort's wand from time period spanning the death of Lily and James Potter up to the Priori Incantatem in the graveyard in Little Hangleton, the following spells were performed by the following people:

Spell------------------------Victim/Recipient------------------------Caster

Cruciatus curses----------Harry Potter--------------------------Voldemort

Conjured hand-----------Wormtail------------------------------Voldemort

Cruciatus curses----------Harry Potter and Avery-------------Voldemort

Avada Kedavra-----------Cedric Diggory------------------------Wormtail

Cruciatus curse-----------Wormtail-----------------------------Voldemort

Avada Kedavra-----------Frank Bryce--------------------------Voldemort

Avada Kedavra-----------Bertha Jorkins------------------------Voldemort

Avada Kedavra-----------Lily Potter----------------------------Voldemort

Avada Kedavra-----------James Potter--------------------------Voldemort

In addition to those spells which were visibly regurgitated from Voldemort's wand, the following was also done with Voldemort's wand (though it seems to have not left any trace that could be discerned during the Priori Incantatem):

During the duel with Harry, there was a spell or two that Voldemort fired but that missed Harry.

The Imperius Curse was placed on Harry by Voldemort to get Harry to say he didn't want Voldemort to cast another Cruciatus Curse on him. Harry was able to cast this curse off.

Voldemort used his wand to make Harry bow at the beginning of their duel.

Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to start a magical fire underneath the cauldron in which Voldemort was resurrected.

One would also assume there were some minor housekeeping chores done with the wand such as the starting of fires and what not, during the year in which Wormtail and Voldemort occupied the Riddle house.

Finally, an unsuccessful Avada Kedavra Curse was performed against Harry Potter.

I'm pretty sure this covers all the spells that it's mentioned were performed by Voldemort's wand during the time spanning James and Lily's death to the Priori Incantatem. If anyone can think of any others, please chime in on this one. =)

Finally, for prof sprout, yes... even though he was using Polyjuice Potion, the Marauder's Map listed the imposter as Bartemius Crouch, and not as Alastor Moody (though he would also have appeared on the map, in his office, at the time the incident with the egg and the trick stair took place). My out on that one, though, is that no one had officially given Bartemius Crouch Jr. another name to go with his altered form, and like I said before, nicknames that just happen to crop up don't count. It's the name that's actually given to you, and no one actually renamed Barty Crouch Jr., they just sort've started calling him something else. =)

ShelterGirl - Jul 20, 2004 4:45 pm (#176 of 292)

Very slick of you Andrew. And it all makes sense to me.

Smile

Thanks. I've always had trouble with that, and can now sleep better.

ShelterGirl

schoff - Jul 20, 2004 4:48 pm (#177 of 292)

Warty Harris: Clearly Voldemort didn't have a body and didn't have a hand to use his wand.

Voldemort can possess other bodies, who do have hands. He could have "persuaded" them.

Andrew Buchanan: Peter Pettigrew was so desperate to avoid attracting any attention to himself that he masqueraded as a RAT for twelve years, folks... and the most boring rat imaginable, at that. Being a rat wasn't good enough. He had to be a rat that pretended to spend all its time asleep.

I don't think Peter was desperate once he landed in the Weasley household. I think he had a cushy life and knew what was good for him. I highly doubt he ever "pretended" to sleep, at least not until Sirius escaped.

Peter is an opportunist, pure and simple. He does what's best for him. He'd betray Voldemort in a heartbeat if he got a better offer.

Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 5:23 pm (#178 of 292)

One other thing I think fits with Wormtail's character: if he felt eclipsed by the powers of James, Lupin and Sirius, imagine the bizarre pleasure Wormtail must have taken in having the such a powerful wizard like Voldemort depending heavily upon him in secret for the simplest needs.

Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 5:42 pm (#179 of 292)

schoff -

Voldemort can possess other bodies, who do have hands. He could have "persuaded" them.

I think what you said proves that Voldemort didn't have his wand. He didn't have hands unless he possessed someone else. When he possessed Quirrell it seemed that Quirrell had control over his body and was just doing what Voldemort told him too. Voldemort orders Quirrell to get the Philosopher's Stone thinking this is the easiest way to bring him back to the way he was. If he knew where his wand was he probably would have ordered Quirrell to get that as well. There is no point in Voldemort using Quirell's wand when he possessed him because it is just not the same as his. Notice the curious absence of wands in the last battle with Quirrell in Philosopher's Stone.

So, once again clearly Voldemort does not have his wand at anytime until he uses it to kill Bertha Jorkins. After October 31st when he killed the Potter's he had no way to pick up his wand. Someone at that time probably retrieved it. No Death Eater knew where Voldemort had gone so they couldn't help him.

If Voldemort could pick up a wand, he could brew a potion and do magic that made him whole again. He would not have needed Peter for this. If it was just that easy to possess someone else then he could get into another body and possess someone else to brew a potion to make him whole again. He doesn't do this. Perhaps because he needed his wand and a true servant.

Once again he doesn't have use of his hands after the Avada Kedavra backfires. He could not have picked up his wand. He was a Whisp of air. The ending of Philosopher's Stone portrays him the way I thought he looked pretty well. Completly incapable of picking up a wand or the Philosopher's Stone.

zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 6:34 pm (#180 of 292)

So that sort of leads - on another thread - to the conclusion that Peter actually accompanied Voldemort that to Godric's Hollow that night.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:58 pm

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 6:40 pm (#181 of 292)

I dunno, schoff. Scabbers slept all through PS/SS, and Ron does say "He might have died and you wouldn't know the difference," when describing Scabbers in general, so I imagine he really didn't do much of anything for any length of time. Even the laziest people I know can't really sleep all the time. That said, valid points one and all.

I do think there was one more really major reason everyone's acted the way they have up to this point, though.

The story wouldn't have worked out the right way if they had all behaved differently.

schoff - Jul 20, 2004 7:11 pm (#182 of 292)

Warty Harris: If he knew where his wand was he probably would have ordered Quirrell to get that as well.

I knew this was coming when I said it, but I don't think it proves anything. Voldemort could very well have had Quirrel get it, but Quirrel may not have been able to use it. Wands work best when it's *your* wand, not someone elses (hence the arguments over Ron's and Neville's new wands). If Quirrel used a wand, he'd most likely use his own since it would work better than Voldemort's--and this doesn't even mention the fact that I don't think Quirrel was adept or prolific at using a wand to begin with. He was not the most competent of people, even before Voldemort possessed him. He was good at books, remember? (P/SS 5 71 US)

As to the lack of a wand in PS/SS during the last chapter, everything that led up to it was pretty wandless too (Fluffy, Keys, Chess, Potions). The only wand use was Hermione and the fire spell for the plant. Things would have much easier if Hermione had used the petrification spell on the keys or Chess pieces.

Andrew Buchanan: Even the laziest people I know can't really sleep all the time.

Heh. Then you have never seen my cat!

Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 7:55 pm (#183 of 292)

Zelmia - It could be that Peter was with him that night. Voldemort could have come by his wand another way but it seems like he got it back while in Albania. This makes me think that Peter or Bertha Jorkins had something to do with it. Peter could have gone after the wand before heading to Albania. This would bring up the question as to how he knew where to go look for it. Did the Ministry have it? Lucius Malfoy? I could see Peter stealing it to show the Dark Lord his obediance....or he coulda picked up after he became and smoke and has had it with him all this time.

Have I been spelling Quirrel wrong all this time??

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 9:14 pm (#184 of 292)

No, it's spelled Quirrell, Warty. You got it right. =^P

Unfortunately, I'm going to come down on schoff's side on the "Voldemort wand issue". I don't think at the point at which Voldemort was attempting to steal the Sorcerer's Stone he would have wanted his wand stolen, because it would have been of little use to him until such time as his body was restored, and with the attempted theft at Gringott's, he probably would have known he couldn't risk it.

After all, the vault having been cleared out would have immediately told Voldemort his presence was suspected, and the quick reporting of the break-in (which could easily and unobtrusively been observed by Quirrell during his daily perusal of the newspaper) would have warned Voldemort away from any thefts which might have put his name back in the public eye.

That being said, however, I don't think it's a likely explanation. It seems entirely more likely that Peter Pettigrew would have had the wand in the first place because, as was said previously, Voldemort couldn't have had it with him once his body was destroyed, and I doubt if Peter Pettigrew had either the presence of mind or the resources as a wizard to break into wherever the wand was being held and steal it (it would've raised a similar alarm as stealing it previously would have). Since no sort of alarm was raised by the sudden theft of Voldemort's wizarding essentials (and remember at the time the entire wizarding community thought Voldemort's biggest supporter was at large and trying to rejoin his master, so they would have been very paranoid about such things), one can reasonably assume that the whereabouts of his wand wasn't known to either the wizarding community at large, or to the proper authorities in the wizarding world.

Hence, the wand made its reappearance when Voldemort was joined by the person who had it, and since it reappeared with Peter Pettigrew rejoining him, then he's probably the one who had it with him...

Unless, of course, you think Bertha Jorkins was carrying it around for twelve years.

Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 9:49 pm (#185 of 292)

It is always possible

MrsGump - Jul 21, 2004 8:18 am (#186 of 292)

I've been under the assumption that when an animagus turns into their animal form, all their clothes and possessions turn with them. McGonagall keeps her glasses and robes right from the beginning of SS/PS. (I am getting to the wand thing here)

So why couldn't LV's wand join the etheral/ vapor Voldemort thing and not have it's true solid form? This could also answer what happened to his body, clothes, etc. They all transformed. So LV didn't have his wand until Wormtail gets him back a rudimentary body. Wormtail could've used Bertha's wand to make the first potion; although it seemed to need Nagini's venom for some sort of potion, so many a wand wasn't needed.

When LV gets that partial body he had in the beginning of GoF, his wand could've returned to solid form with him.

prof sprout - Jul 21, 2004 8:59 am (#187 of 292)

No Andrew I agree with you. I was commenting on how the map shows who is familiar. I also asked if you are/were JKR in disguise Smile

colbow - Jul 21, 2004 10:46 am (#188 of 292)

Okay, I got a question/theory, and feel free to set me on the right path....I always thought that when you transform from wizard to animal the wand that is with you( on your person,in robes etc..) just transforms somehow with you(as does clothes, McGonagall glasses) and when you transform back to human form it will be right there in it same place. So if Peter Pettigrew had went with V-Mort to the Potters then when AK backfired he picked up the wand and had it with him, then he became a rat for twelve yrs. Why didn't he pull it out when confronted by Lupin,Sirius.......because he is a git and a coward.

Warty Harris - Jul 21, 2004 11:04 am (#189 of 292)

The only thing I can think of is that Peter was to afraid to use it. Why didn't he use the wand during that twelve years as well? If it was Peter who gave Voldemort his wand back then there are only two explanations for its curious absence.

1. Peter had it the entire time and was afraid to use it.

2. He stole/took it from where it was before going to Albania.

If he retrieved the wand right before going to Albania, where had it been all the years before? The only thing I can think of is that a Death Eater had the wand or the Ministry of Magic had the wand. If a Death Eater had the wand then why hadn't this Death Eater gone to Albania to help Voldemort? If the Ministry of Magic had the wand then why keep it around. They would have locked it up or destroyed it. Even if they had the wand I don't think Peter could get into the Ministry of Magic.

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 11:20 am (#190 of 292)

Ah. My mistake, prof. =)

And yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think Peter had to have had the wand the entire time.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:59 pm

Warty Harris - Jul 21, 2004 11:43 am (#191 of 292)

MrsGump - That is the only other explaination really. However I thought that Voldemort was no longer there physically, just a vapor. Is the wand vapor as well. Would the same potions bring back a wand like person? I don't see why not but an Animagus is still physically there and its clothing, glasses, wands magically transform to fur or markings. Voldermort is a smokey whisp of air that does not really have substance to it the way an animal does. I do not think that Voldemort was transformed as a violent seperation from his physical body occurred. It appears his body became nothing more than a vapor. I do not recall Hagrid finding his body there and no one was sure that Voldemort was really dead. Least of all Hagrid.

I would think Voldemort dropped the wand because he was now just smoke. It is possible the wand was also turned into smoke. However the wand was not immortal like Voldemort was. If a powerful spell meant to destroy anything in its way hit the wand I think it would have been no more. So I am still guessing the backfired cursed hit Voldemort, made his physical body into a vapor and then he dropped the wand and went flying into the trees around Godric's Hollow. Barely alive and finding it difficult to go on he left Britain and went to Albania to rejuvinate himself where no one he knew could find him or for other reasons we are unaware of.

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 12:34 pm (#192 of 292)

I always got the feeling that Voldemort's body was literally annhilated when his AK failed to kill Harry Potter. Maybe it would be easier for us to hypothesize if J.K. Rowling had said something more concrete about him like "Voldemort's body was blown apart in the blast".

I don't think he was able to take his wand with him, though. I'm pretty sure he said he couldn't pick up a wand to use it, so that's a significant statement, I think, that his wand was left behind.

Warty Harris - Jul 21, 2004 1:15 pm (#193 of 292)

I think that is how it happened. There are a number of ways that the wand could have ended up with Voldemort years later. If he said somewhere he couldn't pick up his wand to use it that is very significant. It would mean he couldn't pick it up after he tried to kill Harry.

MrsGump - Jul 21, 2004 2:01 pm (#194 of 292)

I'm hoping that the first chapter of HBP will be the description of the night at Godric's Hollow that was one of the discarded first chapters of SS/PS. And, hopefully, JKR says what happened to his body, the wand, etc.

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 2:09 pm (#195 of 292)

I think the reference for whether or not he could pick up his wand is found on page 653 of the American Hardback Edition of Goblet of Fire:

I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost...

This part pretty well says that Voldemort's body wasn't transformed into vapor or anything. It says his "essence", if you will, was removed from his physical form... so it would be reasonable to assume that his body was actually physically destroyed. Anyway, to continue the quote...

... but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal-- to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself... for I had no body, and every spell that might have helped me required the use of a wand....

Voldemort goes on to say that he wasn't able to perform the magic he needed to, so while the words "I wasn't able to hold a wand" aren't in there, I think it's exceedingly clear by the statements above that Voldemort's body was utterly destroyed, and that he had absolutely no way to pick up or use a wand.

Hence it couldn't have been on his body when he fled, because his body was gone, and he couldn't have taken it with him, because he had nothing to pick up a wand with... so someone else had to have retrieved the wand and taken it to Voldemort.

ShelterGirl - Jul 21, 2004 2:58 pm (#196 of 292)

If we go with the theory that when an animagus changes form all of the items it has on its person are transformed as well, then I would have to agree with those who think that Peter had Voldemort's wand with him when he took off as a rat. I don't know that he would have carried it with him all those years, but he certainly could have stashed it somewhere. I don't know. This has probably all been discussed before. Has anyone determined if a wand can be transfigured into another item? It might have sat in the Weasley house or yard somewhere looking like bric-a-brack.

ShelterGirl

zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 3:05 pm (#197 of 292)

I think one's OWN wand can transform with you. But if you are keeping another wizard's wand, that seems to be another matter.

Warty Harris - Jul 21, 2004 3:54 pm (#198 of 292)

You may be right Zelmia.

I am certain that Voldemort could not hold his wand and did not take it with him when he left Godric's Hollow. What happened to the wand after that is not so certain. Was Peter there that night and took the wand with him, keeping it for all those years? Did the Ministry of Magic take it and a Death Eater steal it later? Did Lucius Malfoy retrieve it from Godric's Hollow sometime on November 1st. It is a mystery. We do know that it shows back up in Albania the same time Peter does.

S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 10:04 pm (#199 of 292)

I doubt it matters if the wand is yours or someone else's in relation to being an animagus as your other belongings (the clothes you're wearing that day, the jewelry, the wallet, the watch, etc - all things that change from a daily basis and things you could've picked up from other people, ie pickpocketing) change with you as well.

As for the wand, I don't think it changed into vapor for the reason's Andrew stated (Voldemort being ripped from his physical form). I think that most likely Peter may have hidden Voldemort's wand, if he did have it, on the odd chance that a DE who escaped Azkaban was able to magically track it somehow (don't know if that's possible or not) or in case he was ever found out and found with Voldemort's wand (would't look good). He could say he was hiding from the horrid Sirius Black and from DEs, but if he had Voldemort's wand on him, it would look awefully suspicious. I'm guessing he retrieved it from some hiding spot after PoA and before going to Albania.

donders bas - Jul 25, 2004 1:38 pm (#200 of 292)

Ok, let's try this again but in the appropriate thread this time Wink

Hi, _second_ post here, had a couple of questions/observations I was wondering about if other people besides me had noticed them... so here it goes

I think that Crouch had an assistant called Weatherby before Percy started to work for him. In chapter "the madness of Mr Crouch" in GF, Crouch says 'Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending a concert tonight with Mr and Mrs Fudge.' This must be a memory from before they found out his son was a death eater, since he was accompanying them to the concert that night. This must have been before the fall of voldemort, since Crouch jr was apprehended shortly aftere voldemort's fall. Percy wasn't working at the ministry at that time, I don't think he even was at hogwarts yet. So I think that Crouch had an assistant called Weatherby when he still was head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. I wonder what people think about this.

Now, on to a glitch. Same thing here, wondering if anyone noticed this before...

I think that Sirius wasn't the first person to escape from Azkaban, but that Crouch jr beat him to it. When he's under the influence of veritaserum, he tells dumbledore that winky convinced his father to take him to the quidditch world cup, and that that would "be the first time in years I was out of the house"... from that we can deduce that he's been in the house for at least 2 years. This all takes place before the world cup, so 2 years means he has been at that house since at least the summer of 1992, while sirius escaped azkaban in 1993. So people saying that sirius was the first person ever to escape azkaban are wrong. Not that they know that of course.

That's it. eagerly awaiting your replies.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:00 pm

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 25, 2004 2:23 pm (#201 of 292)

If you'll remember, before Crouch went mad, he called Percy by the name "Weatherby". It happened in the campgrounds just before the Quidditch World Cup. Since his son was still under his control at the time, we can assume Voldemort hadn't made it to his house yet. So, I think Barty Crouch Sr. was just in the habit of calling Percy that. He may have had an assistant named Weatherby before he had Percy working for him, but I we don't really know one way or the other.

As for Barty Crouch Jr. being the first to escape from Azkaban, yes... he did beat Sirius Black out of Azkaban. In fact, he didn't just beat him out by two years. Assuming that the Death Eaters Crouch Jr. was with were caught within a year of Sirius Black being caught, then Barty Crouch Jr. escaped from Azkaban eleven or more years before Sirius Black did.

If you'll remember, as Sirius talks to the Trio in the cave outside of Hogsmeade, he tells them Barty Crouch Jr. died about a year after he was put in Azkaban.

I'm not really sure what he did constitutes "escaping" from Azkaban, though. He wasn't in any condition to leave Azkaban under his own power, and I don't think it was even his idea to leave in the first place. I think it would be more appropriate to say Barty Crouch Jr. was smuggled out of Azkaban by his father. That would still mean Sirius Black was the first to escape Azkaban under his own power.

Also, as you pointed out, donders, at the time Sirius Black escaped, no one knew Barty Crouch Jr. had made it out of Azkaban, up until the point he was found out by Dumbledore at the end of Harry's fourth year (almost two full years after the escape of Sirius Black) everyone assumed he died and was buried at Azkaban fortress... and once it was discovered, Cornelius Fudge was making sure that the truth of the situation was being well suppressed, so the wizarding world at large would still be of the impression he was dead and buried in Azkaban.

donders bas - Jul 25, 2004 4:25 pm (#202 of 292)

Ahh yes, forgot that he 'died' within one year. I was under the impression it wasn't mentioned when it took place, but it did. As for the weatherby part though... " Since his son was still under his control at the time, we can assume Voldemort hadn't made it to his house yet." His wife was dead at this point, and he would never tell percy that his son was still alive, so what you said here doesn't make much sense to me.

That Crouch mentions both his son and his wife in the quoted fragment means I think that it took place before his son was arrested, and with his wife obviously still alive. This is important because he doesn't know percy yet at this point. So he can't be referring to him in this memory. He addresses someone named Weatherby though, which makes me believe he did have an assistant called Weatherby at that point.

Also, "Weatherby" isn't _that_ close to "Weasley"... Maybe mr. Crouch was just a bit senile Wink

Eponine - Jul 25, 2004 4:30 pm (#203 of 292)

I always thought it was to show how unimportant Percy actually was to Crouch Sr. He couldn't even be bothered to learn his assistant's name.

zelmia - Jul 26, 2004 12:00 am (#204 of 292)

Also, when Crouch Sr. is saying those things, he is, at that point, only pretending to be mad because he is trying to get to Dumbledore. He has thrown off the Imperious Curse enough to make it to Hogwarts. He knows his son is there and that he mustn't be found out. So he pretends to be a raving lunatic so he can try to get to Dumbedore.
I agree that the moniker Weatherby is deliberate and symbolizes the true relationship Crouch has with Percy, who in turn thinks of himself as Crouch's indispensible right-hand man.

donders bas - Jul 26, 2004 1:51 am (#205 of 292)

I always thought it was to show how unimportant Percy actually was to Crouch Sr. He couldn't even be bothered to learn his assistant's name Well yes... that much is obvious. But nevermind

Catherine - Jul 26, 2004 5:48 am (#206 of 292)

Also, when Crouch Sr. is saying those things, he is, at that point, only pretending to be mad because he is trying to get to Dumbledore. He has thrown off the Imperious Curse enough to make it to Hogwarts. He knows his son is there and that he mustn't be found out. So he pretends to be a raving lunatic so he can try to get to Dumbedore.--Zelmia

I hadn't considered this. I'm not sure that I believe that Crouch was pretending to be mad. His talk of his son seemed to take him back many years in time, back to Barty, Jr.'s O.W.L year. This reminds me of the ways in which people with dementia can remember something from very long ago, but are confused in the present.

I'm not sure that I think that Crouch was pretending. Maybe I need to think more about it.

Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2004 11:16 am (#207 of 292)

I tend to agree with you, Catherine. I felt that Crouch was attempting to "fight off" the Imperius Curse, and was succeeding sometimes, and not succeeding other times -- in other words, his "madness" comes and goes. His struggle with the Curse caused him to be disoriented and confused, very much like a person struggling with dementia. I took his statement to be a moment in which he was confused and thinking back to a time many years back (as you say, in Barty, Jr.'s OWL year.)

I have been around people with dementia, and they can carry on some, um, interesting conversations to say the least. They can effortlessly hop back and forth between the past and the present, while you're sitting there going "Huh? Oh, ok...." Anyway, that's how I interpreted Crouch's statements.

zelmia - Jul 26, 2004 12:48 pm (#208 of 292)

Well, he certainly had the wherewithall to make it all the way to Hogwarts, apparently on foot. And he seemed to be pretty aware of what was happening to him, albeit unable to totally resist it. That tells me that he wasn't truly "mad" - though certainly the Dementia could have been inflicted as a side effect of the Curse.

Catherine - Jul 26, 2004 3:31 pm (#209 of 292)

Well, Zelmia, he might have apparated within walking distance of Hogwarts during one of his saner moments. His trousers were dirty, so he might really have been struggling, even on hands and knees.

His general appearance doesn't tell us everything, but it suggests that either he was very neglectful of his appearance while under the Imperious Curse with Wormtail, or that his appearance was at least partially due to his struggles to reach Hogwarts.

I think it's a little of both.

I think that Crouch was NOT pretending to be insane, or sane. I think he was "coming and going" out of the Imperious Curse.

King Size - Jul 26, 2004 10:56 pm (#210 of 292)

Hey Everyone, I think this might have already been discussed... but this "Possibly Glitch in GoF" seemed an appropriate place to post my problem... towards the end of GoF Dumbledore to Snape " Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready.... If you are prepared..." and Snape says "I am." Could someone explain this to me? I'm guessing it ties into something with OotP... but what exactly? - KS

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:01 pm

Leila 2X4B - Jul 27, 2004 4:00 am (#211 of 292)

KS it is assumed that DD was asking Snape to return as a spy to Voldy and the Death Eaters. It is dangerous because either death or Crucio are possible for Snape. Leila

Loony Loopy Larissa - Jul 27, 2004 9:14 am (#212 of 292)

This has been bugging me: if Snape was bullying Quirrel in #1, and Quirrel was sharing his head with Voldemort (referred to as Vapormort somewhere), wouldn't Voldemort and his Death Eaters realize Snape had turned spy? I suppose it wouldn't be too suspicious if Snape wasn't aware of Voldemort's presence, but it would show his loyalty to Dumbledore. Also, if Voldemort had thought Snape still loyal, he would have had Quirrel enlist his help in stealing the stone. Let's face it, if you had a choice between Quirrel and Snape helping you, would you really choose Quirrel? Once Quirrel dies, wouldn't he then have gone to Snape? Snape would have been just as good of a candidate as Quirrel: a Hogwarts professor, a supposedly loyal Death Eater, a fairly powerful wizard. If he trusted Snape, Voldemort would have contacted Snape before fleeing back to Albania. This, and the comment made by Voldemort, leads me to believe that Snape is either suspected or being fed false information. I also believe Snape will die. (Perhaps some odd twist where he dies to save Harry...now that would be ironic!)

Edit: Perhaps this should belong on the Snape thread, but as I haven't had a chance to read through that thread I just put it here. My apologies.

S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 2:03 pm (#213 of 292)

Loony Loopy Larissa, I don't think Snape threatening Quirrell will be a problem. Why? Because we don't actually hear him saying anything about being loyal to Dumbledore. All the times Harry overhears Snape's threats, he's asking Quirrell if he'd gotten past Fluffy, etc, so it could very well be that Snape was trying to get Quirrell to admit to breaking Dumbledore's trust by agreeing to help him (Snape) get the stone. Once he'd openly agreed, I'm sure Snape would've gone to Dumbledore....

So, when Snape faces Voldemort, he could just say he was trying to get the stone himself and would've helped, had he known Voldemort was there....

Loony Loopy Larissa - Jul 27, 2004 3:04 pm (#214 of 292)

That makes good sense, but it still leaves the problem that Voldemort didn't go to Snape once he left Quirrel. Perhaps he left because Dumbledore had just shown up, and he wanted to get as far away from the Only One He Ever Feared. Though he still spent a lot of very desperate time in the Albanian forest that he might not have had to. Also, don't you think some of his Death Eaters who had evaded punishment would have told him what Dumbledore said about turning spy against Voldemort to great personal risk? Perhaps Jo just hasn't thought about it, but it stood out to me. I know I've strayed way off topic.

Just for a little relevance to the previous discussion, didn't Crouch, Sr., take awhile to get to Hogwarts after escaping? Wormtail had enough time to send an owl to Crouch, Jr., that I believe arrived the day before Crouch, Sr., showed up (all these Sr.'s and Jr.'s are getting troublesome). Perhaps he managed to apparate some of the way, but I believe it is more difficult over long distances. He doubtfully had the strength to apparate that far.

S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 3:19 pm (#215 of 292)

Though he still spent a lot of very desperate time in the Albanian forest that he might not have had to. Also, don't you think some of his Death Eaters who had evaded punishment would have told him what Dumbledore said about turning spy against Voldemort to great personal risk?

Well, I definately think he was trying to get someplace safe when he left Hogwarts. As for the other DEs telling, I don't think they heard, except for Karkaroff. So, they wouldn't know what Dumbledore said on Snape's behalf. I've also heard a theory that Voldemort was the one who sent Snape to Hogwarts (to spy on Dumbledore) and so anything Dumbledore said about Snape would be playing to that plan of keeping Snape there. If that were the case, Voldemort surely wouldn't have gone to a DE who seems to be very much out for himself (he wanted the stone) and who is stuck under Dumbledore's nose. Surely he would've known that Dumbledore would now be checking for him so why stay with Snape?

As to Crouch Jr, for some reason I got the idea that Riddle showed up to his house just shortly after the Quidditch World Cup, so he'd have had enough time to go to Moody's (the night the dustbins were making a racket), impersonate Moody and get to Hogwarts via the Knight Bus or something....

Loony Loopy Larissa - Jul 27, 2004 4:23 pm (#216 of 292)

Ahh...brilliant! Does anyone happen to recall how long Snape says he had been teaching at Hogwarts when he is "inspected" by Umbridge? I don't have my copy of the book right now.

S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 4:34 pm (#217 of 292)

Larissa, reask on the Snape thread and we can move the topic there....

schoff - Jul 27, 2004 6:45 pm (#218 of 292)

KS it is assumed that DD was asking Snape to return as a spy to Voldy and the Death Eaters.

Aah, but not by everyone....

zelmia - Jul 27, 2004 11:06 pm (#219 of 292)

As for Voldemort "going to Snape" once Quirrell had died, firstly, Quirell was very easily manipulated (check the Graveyard speech in GF). Secondly, as a Mist, Voldemort apparently doesn't have a lot of control over where he can and cannot go. True, he can possess "lesser" creatures, and this is probably how he got to Albania. Thirdly, in spite of both of these, Dumbledore was now aware of his - sort of - return and he would have had to high tail it out of Hogwarts no matter what.

Shanda - Aug 9, 2004 8:47 pm (#220 of 292)

Hello everyone I have a question. Maybe it has already been asked somewhere on the thread but i haven't had a lot of time to read every post. Anyway here it goes. Crouch Sr. used polyjuice potion to exchange likenesses with his wife and his son to get Crouch Jr. out of Azkaban. His wife died in there and she was buried, but if polyjuice only lasts an hour then how come no one noticed who she really was. I understand that the dementors can't see so they would not have noticed, but I would think that someone from the MoM would be there to see the body buried.

If this has already been answered or if i just missed something in the book (which is always possible. I have read it 5 times and am still finding new things in it.) then let me know.

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:02 pm

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 9:09 pm (#221 of 292)

Shanda, I found what you are looking for, I believe. (US ed page 684) "The dementors are blind. They sensed one healthy, one dying person entering azkaban. They sensed one healthy, one dying person leaving it. My father smuggled me out, disguised as my mother, in case any prisoners were watching through their doors. ... My mother died a short while afterward in Azkaban. She was careful to drink Polyjuice Potion until the end. She was buried under my name and bearing my appearance. Everyone believed her to be me."

Is that the passage you wanted?

Solitaire

Verschwinden Sie - Aug 9, 2004 9:12 pm (#222 of 292)

Well, there are a couple of possibilities. The first is that the Ministry of Magic simply leaves the running of Azkaban, to include the burial of prisoners, to the Dementors and stays as far away as possible. Actually, that's likely since the Dementors seem to feed on human beings indiscriminately (being in their very presence seems to cause acute discomfort for people), and since the Dementors have, up to OotP, been very faithful in the execution of their duties.

Also, while polyjuice potion lasts an hour on living people, we don't have any indication it would wear off once the person in question died. There's a chance that once the person is dead, the effect is permanent... so if she was very careful to take her polyjuice potion to the very end of her life (which we're told she was), then she would have stayed in the form of her son after she died. In fact, that's probably the case since J.K. Rowling essentially tells us it is (or else she took her last dose of the potion, died, and was buried within the space of an hour).

I think the question with the polyjuice potion, though, is "why didn't anyone notice someone with a giant flask of polyjuice potion and handfuls of someone else's hair in their cell?" I mean, you think someone would have noticed and gone "Well, there's a giant corked flask of polyjuice potion in here! Bloody Hell, do you think we should look into why one of our prisoners wanted the ability to CHANGE SHAPE?"

Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 9:23 pm (#223 of 292)

Could the dementors know about the potion? Since the change is from one sick human to another, they shouldn't sense any difference. I don't think they have the ability to "see" objects at all. And since Ministry officials and pretty much everyone else avoid Azkaban if at all possible, as Andrew said, I don't think it's inconceivable that the potion went unnoticed.

Verschwinden Sie - Aug 9, 2004 9:32 pm (#224 of 292)

Yeah, but you'd imagine they have to clean out the cells every once in a while, especially after a prisoner dies. The potion should've turned up then, yes?

Of course, we could always take Basil Exposition's advice on the subject, and just relax and remind ourselves it's only a book. =)

Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 9:38 pm (#225 of 292)

Hmmmm. I just don't see dementors cleaning things. I keep trying, and this ridiculous image of a dementor in a frilly apron brandishing a feather duster keeps popping into my head. Do they have house elves on Azkaban? Do dementors affect them?

Personally, I don't think anyone cleans. It's prison, it's supposed to be horrible, and with the dementors around, dirt is the least of the prisoners' problems.

Verschwinden Sie - Aug 9, 2004 9:45 pm (#226 of 292)

I'm not saying they're concerned about dirt in the least. I imagine Azkaban is a filthy, ratty stinkhole... but imagine how long it's been around. It's probably hundreds of years old, and while I don't suppose prisoners are really sent to Azkaban with a lot of personal belongings, it doesn't seem like it's against the rule to allow them to have some (Cornelius Fudge did allow a prisoner to have his copy of the paper). I'm just saying that those items would have to be cleared out, because after centuries of them accumulating, there wouldn't be any place left to put the prisoners... so yeah, I can see the whole "dead person's stuff gets thrown away" thing happening.

Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 9:48 pm (#227 of 292)

True, but I can't imagine them taking much time to examine anything. They'd just chuck it. Even if they did notice the Polyjuice Potion, and even if they figured out what had happened, would they care? I think not. When Hagrid comes back from Azkaban, he tells the trio that the dementoids didn't want to let him go, that they didn't care about guilt or innocence as long as they had lots of souls to munch on. So they killed the wrong person. I don't think they'd be too fussed about it.

Verschwinden Sie - Aug 9, 2004 10:04 pm (#228 of 292)

True, but finding the right person would give them another person to munch on.

McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 7:47 am (#229 of 292)

Ozy, very funny! I can picture that too.

Shanda - Aug 10, 2004 8:08 am (#230 of 292)

Thanks Solitaire, I guess that I did miss that part in the book. Andrew I think you are right it does make sense that the effect would be perminate after death. Ozy I am laughing at the image of an dementor with a feather duster Smile

John Bumbledore Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:03 pm

McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 8:58 am (#231 of 292)

Shanda- did you see my avatar?

Shanda - Aug 10, 2004 9:04 am (#232 of 292)

I just noticed it. I love it. I am sitting at work laughing (which isn't good because i am suppose to be on the phone now).

McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 9:26 am (#233 of 292)

Oops! Hee hee... aaah well. Maybe I can get my dementor to clean up your work area!

Shanda - Aug 10, 2004 9:39 am (#234 of 292)

Oh no bad idea. I work for disney. With all the happiness around here the dementors would have a feast.

Shanda - Aug 10, 2004 10:21 am (#235 of 292)

Anyway I think that i strayed off topic a little. One other little thing that bothers me about GoF. Harry saved Peter's life in the third book so that means that peter owes Harry. How come when Voldy was about to AK Harry Peter did nothing? Was there just not enough time before the two wands connected? Or was it just not possible for him to do anything with all those DEs around? Or is this something that i also missed in the book?

Verschwinden Sie - Aug 10, 2004 11:08 am (#236 of 292)

No, you didn't miss this one in the book. Peter Pettigrew did, indeed, do absolutely nothing to help Harry Potter in GoF. However, the way I read it, Pettigrew distinctly avoided paying attention to Harry as a person while he did what his master wanted him to do.

I think it's important to remember that Peter Pettigrew is motivated much more by fear than he is by morality... hence his betrayal of the Potters to Voldemort, spending twelve years as a rat, running straight back to Voldemort when the gig was up on his Scabbers scheme and it became more dangerous for him to remain in England.

Not to be rude to the mustelidae, but Pettigrew tries to weasel out of everything he can, and I think this is one of those cases. It seemed to make him uncomfortable to do what he did to Harry Potter, but then, being tortured and killed by Voldemort would be pretty uncomfortable, too... and it's something that he is very much trying to avoid.

I think Pettigrew's debt to Harry will play out later in the books, and I think J.K. Rowling gave us a good hint as to when it will happen when she said "conjured things don't last".

Remus J. Lupin - Aug 20, 2004 1:04 pm (#237 of 292)

Jim the Potty, your first post looks odd. James couldn't have already been dead, because JK said herself that Voldy killed Lily first. It doesn't really make sense.

zelmia - Aug 20, 2004 2:29 pm (#238 of 292)

Actually she says that Voldemort killed James then Lily. She clears this up once and for all on her own website. So James was in fact already dead. Lupin is Lupin, Crookshanks is Crookshanks and Lavender Brown is Lavender Brown.

Jessalynn Quirky - Aug 21, 2004 12:49 pm (#239 of 292)

Everybody says that shortly after Lily and James Potter's death, Wormtail turns up, gets Voldy's wand, and changes into a rat. Thus, when he returns back to Voldy, he gives Voldy his wand back.

If this is so, it would also mean that when Sirius and Lupin forced Wormtail to transform back to his human form at the end of PoA, Wormtail would have had Voldy's wand. However, in PoA, we see that Wormtail does not have a wand or he would have used it against Lupin and Sirius.

Loopy Lupin - Aug 21, 2004 1:32 pm (#240 of 292)

Perhaps Voldy's things were hidden somewhere for safekeeping?

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