Hogwarts Boundries - Just a thought

Hogwarts Boundries - Just a thought

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Lanky Lisa - Jul 14, 2007 12:45 am
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 26, 2007 2:22 am
I went to see OotP yesterday and im also reading book6, and it came to mind that Fred and George, fly over the outer wall, but in HBP, Dumbledore has to take down the defences so they can fly through. There's other times when things fly over the walls as well, e.g. Charlie's Friends when they come to get Norbert, The Weasley's Car and Sirius and Buckbeak. It seems Hogwarts cant be that safe if anyone can fly over apart from the headmaster. Unless Dumbledore knows everything thats goin on at everymoment of the day, which is probably very likely, how can they have got over those walls?

Kip Carter - Jul 14, 2007 1:04 am (#1 of 27)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I think your question is an excellent one; however there may not be an answer readily available. If I were Jo Rowling or her editor, I could pass it off as different levels of security with complex measures in place during HBP with less restrictions in the previous books. To say that may seem to be an easy way out and it does skirt the intent of your question of which I think is a valid concern. I hope that others can provide better solutions.

Lanky Lisa, that was a quick question being that I just changed your status. Welcome aboard and take the time to post on the # Tell About Yourself (new) thread so others will know you. I hope to see more of your posts in the future.

In the meantime, maybe some of our really sharp minds can better answer your question.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 14, 2007 2:19 am (#2 of 27)
I don't have any other suggestions at the moment, but it might be interesting to make a list of some other times when the school boundaries were crossed. So, to add to Lisa's list:

- In GOF, the Beauxbatons carriage flew over into the grounds, and the Durmstrang ship appeared in the lake. This time, however, I'm certain that Dumbledore lowered any protections that could prevent that.
- Barty Crouch Sr. entered Hogwarts - it seems as though he went in through the Forbidden Forest, but that seems unlikely (we don't know how far the forest goes, and I doubt he could get out of there alive, in his state).

It's only HBP where we see defences than need to be let down, and we see it twice - once when Tonks escorts Harry to the gates, and only Snape can open them, and the second time when Harry and DD fly over.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 14, 2007 3:12 am (#3 of 27)
Two thoughts. Firstly, flying inside the Hogwarts grounds is not a problem as it occurs in every book (Quidditch and Triwizard Tournament) so the protection could be one way - getting in but not getting out.

Secondly in HbP Voldemort is admitted to be back and extra protection has been put on Hogwarts. What we see about Snape and Dumbledore lowering the protection so Harry (and Dumbledore) can get in may be HbP specific.

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zelmia - Jul 14, 2007 2:57 pm (#4 of 27)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, they do mention several times in HBP that "extra security" has been placed around Hogwarts. With this in mind, I agree with Kip's explanation and have always assumed the same thing.

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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 2:59 pm (#5 of 27)
I would imagine the security is lowered for specific times when people will be entering the environs of Hogwarts ... such as the first day of school (the flying Anglia), visitors arriving for the Triwizard Tournament (Madam Maxime's flying coach and the Durmstrang ship). Is it possible that Dumbledore lowered the security so that Sirius and Buckbeak could escape? After all, it was his idea!

How Fred & George leave is more of a problem ... although perhaps Dumbledore "altered" the security somewhat, after he disappeared with Fawkes. You see, I think he was still "hovering" around the castle, keeping an eye on things. Remember ... he does not have to be wearing a cloak to be invisible. I think he might also have discovered that Hagrid would be sending off Norbert to Charlie, too ... and he may have lowered the security field around Hogwarts for that, as well. Just speculation, though ...

Solitaire

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Paul Potter - Jul 14, 2007 3:42 pm (#6 of 27)
Another time that we see people leaving is Harry and Friends leaving to go to the MOM. They were able to just fly away.

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legolas returns - Jul 14, 2007 3:44 pm (#7 of 27)
It depends whether you count the forrest as part of the grounds or the outer boundary.

I am sure that the security was lower before HBP.

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Paul Potter - Jul 14, 2007 3:47 pm (#8 of 27)
Totally agree that the security was increased. You would have thought that DD would have had the same protection the year before knowing that LV was back even if the MOM didn't believe him.

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Allison R - Jul 14, 2007 4:04 pm (#9 of 27)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Paul, I agree with you in principle but if he had disallowed people flying in completely, then members of the Order wouldn't have been able to come add extra gaurd when he needed them?

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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 4:59 pm (#10 of 27)
Members of the Order may have had some special way of getting through the security.

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Allison R - Jul 14, 2007 5:31 pm (#11 of 27)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Good point, Soli! Hmmm, that was my best idea. This is a possible inconsistency that hadn't occured to me before reading this thread, but which I find very interesting!

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Choices - Jul 14, 2007 5:53 pm (#12 of 27)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Members of the Order could just apparate to outside the gates and walk up to the castle. In HBP they were stationed in Hogsmeade, so it wouldn't take them long to walk to the school from there, or from anywhere if they apparate.

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Allison R - Jul 14, 2007 6:18 pm (#13 of 27)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
If Hermione would just stop hogging all the copies of Hogwarts: A History we could clear this right up! I'm sure this is explained in detail in the same chapter that explains that you cannot Apparate or Disapperate inside the castle.

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Choices - Jul 14, 2007 6:38 pm (#14 of 27)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Allison - "The words "too much" and "chocolate" should never appear in the same sentence."

But, what if the sentence says, "You can never get too much chocolate"? There's that old exception to every rule thing. LOL

Right, but you can apparate TO outside the gates or FROM outside the gates as Snape and the DE's did at the end of HBP.

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Allison R - Jul 14, 2007 6:43 pm (#15 of 27)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.

But, what if the sentence says, "You can never get too much chocolate"? There's that old exception to every rule thing. LOL


Oooh, I hadn't considered that!! It's the fine print that gets me every time, alas!


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Choices - Jul 14, 2007 7:08 pm (#16 of 27)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
:-) I just had to tease you about that. I totally agree with the concept of that statement. LOL

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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 9:24 pm (#17 of 27)
Like I tell my students ... adverbs ARE important!

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 14, 2007 11:35 pm (#18 of 27)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
The twins could have gotten out the same way. Rode their brooms to the gates, got off and walked through the gates and then taken off again. Just not that interested at this late date.

Mickey

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 10:09 am (#19 of 27)
I suspect that keeping people (Voldemort & DEs) OUT was probably more critical than keeping them IN at this particular point in time. There might be different kinds of enchantments for each need.

Solitaire

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2007 11:42 am (#20 of 27)
If members of the Order of the Phoenix can lower the extra security why did Snape have to do it to let Harry in? If a teacher has to do it how did then the extra Order members could have been let in by McGonnagel or DD.

I think there were less protection prior to HBP, but then why did they not just up the protection magically in PoA?

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Allison R - Jul 15, 2007 12:12 pm (#21 of 27)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Phelim, in PoA I doubt whatever protections there were in place would have cared if a dog wandered through the gates-- all Sirius would have had to do is transform and meander through to get onto the grounds. They also had the Dementors patrolling the area at that time, which they were assured would provide lots of protection for the school and its occupants.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2007 12:29 pm (#22 of 27)
I agree Allison that the protection in PoA was not aimed at dogs, but nobody knew that Sirius was an animagus so the dog issue isn't as relevant as it could be. As far as they were concerned they were looking for a non-animagus wizard so they could have upped the protection. Yes the dementors were looking for Sirius but protecion could have been hightened as in HbP.

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zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 1:31 pm (#23 of 27)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I believe in PA the Dementors were the "heightened" protection.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 16, 2007 2:14 am (#24 of 27)
But why Dementors? Not the extra charms etc that were in place in HbP?

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totyle - Jul 16, 2007 2:30 am (#25 of 27)
It was Fudge's idea as I recall....

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zelmia - Jul 16, 2007 10:18 am (#26 of 27)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
But why Dementors? Not the extra charms etc that were in place in HbP?

In PA the concern was only one lone Wizard (Sirius). And, based on what they knew about Sirius (or thought they did), having Dementors patrol the perimeter of the grounds was enough. In fact it would have been enough to keep Sirius out had the secret passages not existed and had Sirius been just an ordinary wizard (and not an animagus).
Also, they were really just trying to protect Harry and not the school as a whole. And remember too that no one had previously escaped from Azkaban so there was no precident for how to respond.

In the later episodes there was a real threat from mutiple fronts, who meant real harm not just to Harry, which is why additional enchantments were implemented.

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Hoot Owl - Jul 18, 2007 12:36 am (#27 of 27)
Teacher
POA Chp. 19 pg.372 US ed hardcover;" I journeyed north and slipped into the Hogwarts grounds as a dog. I've been living in the forest ever since, except when I came to watch the Quidditch of course." So Sirius Black did not use the secret passages to get into the grounds.