Who did Hagrid meet at the Hogs Head in SS

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Who did Hagrid meet at the Hogs Head in SS

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:51 am

Who did Hagrid meet at the Hogs Head in SS

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

rambkowalczyk - Jun 26, 2007 2:23 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 26, 2007 4:11 am
Hagrid met someone who offered to sell him a dragon in order to get information about how to get past the barriers to the Sorcerers Stone. Most posters (as do I) assume that it was Quirrel in disguise.

But the counter argument is that Quirrel never admitted to this when talking to Hagrid.

wynnleaf provides this quote from book 5

Harry remembered Hagrid mentioning this pub in his first year: `Yeh get a lot o' funny folk in the Hogs Head,' he had said, explaining how he had won a dragon's egg from a hooded stranger there. At the time Harry had wondered why Hagrid had not found it odd that the stranger kept his face hidden throughout their encounter; now he saw that keeping your face hidden was something of a fashion in the Hog's Head.

She questions why was it worded stranger instead of Quirrel.

Granted Hagrid didn't know who it was but JKR could have written it to imply that Harry figured out it was Quirrel.

If any of this is relevant to book 7, one must ask if the stranger wasn't Quirrel, how did Voldemort get in touch with him. Did he have Quirrel contact this unknown person? If so then the identity of the stranger is known only to Voldemort.

We can rule out Lucius because Lucius seemed truly clueless that Voldemort had any chance of coming back. I'm basing this on Dumbledore's statement in book 6 how angry Voldemort was that Lucius used the horcrux diary in such a careless manner. We can rule out the Death Eaters who were in Azkaban as they were unavailable.

If Snape is Dumbledore's man we can rule him out as well. If he isn't, then he could be a possibility, but wouldn't he then tell Bella in HBP that he tricked Hagrid into helping Quirrel.

Who else wasn't in prison besides Lucius, and Snape? I refer to the Spinner's end chapter where Snape lists them "Avery, Yaxley, the Carrows, Greyback, Lucius..." Any of these could have been commissioned by Quirrel to sell a dragon egg.

It could have been MacNair since he works in the Ministry (He was the one ordered to kill Buckbeak in book 3).

I thought I would start this thread to see if there were any ideas on the matter.
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Who did Hagrid meet at the Hogs Head in SS (Post 1 to 65)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:52 am

Choices - Jun 26, 2007 2:39 pm (#1 of 65)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think we have to determine motive in figuring out who it was. Who wanted to know how to get past Fluffy? Quirrell. Who was after the stone? Quirrell (for Voldemort). Who would have a dragon's egg in his pocket and would probably know Hagrid well enough to know that he wanted a dragon? Quirrell Who would know that Hagrid likes to drink and would use this knowledge to his advantage? Quirrell

You see where I am going with this - Quirrell is far and away the most likely candidate for this hooded man. He stands to gain the most from the information he gets out of Hagrid. We know that Quirrell goes into the Dark Forest to kill and drink the unicorn blood for Voldemort, why should it not be Quirrell who goes into the pub and gets information from Hagrid about how to steal the stone? Quirrell just makes sense as the most likely one.

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Paul Potter - Jun 26, 2007 2:43 pm (#2 of 65)

To true Choices we know that Quirrell is a good actor with his fake stutter for nearly a year. So it wouldn't be hard for him to put a hood over his head and put on a act for Hagrid

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Soul Search - Jun 26, 2007 3:43 pm (#3 of 65)

I think a important question is where did Quirrell get the dragon's egg? Possible that Quirrell just bought one, but Ron says they are rare, since they are outlawed.

Hagrid said the stranger was a dragon dealer. Maybe he was. Quirrell encounters a dragon dealer and convinces him to meet Hagrid and get information about Fluffy from him. Lots of funny folk in the Hogs Head.

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Choices - Jun 26, 2007 5:47 pm (#4 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soul Search - "Hagrid said the stranger was a dragon dealer. Maybe he was."

And maybe Quirrell (in disguise) fed a very gullible Hagrid that story to get his attention.

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Chemyst - Jun 28, 2007 5:21 pm (#5 of 65)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Quirrell (and Voldemort) had an awful lot at risk had he/they been discovered. At the Hog's Head you have people who have been drinking... people with secrets… people who are not fully legitimate… it all makes for a very unpredictable bar climate. One good bar fight grab at that turban and the entire plot changes. No, I don't think Voldemort would have wanted to take on the risk of Hagrid sensing something familiar, like say, the scent of garlic emanating from the hood. I think Quirrelmort paid off a dragon egg dealer who was a stranger.

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Choices - Jun 28, 2007 6:09 pm (#6 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
And you think Quirrell/Voldemort couldn't take on a bar full of drunks and weirdos? They could Apparate, AK everyone, Stupefy, Petrificus Totalus, etc. I think they could manage.

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Chemyst - Jun 28, 2007 8:16 pm (#7 of 65)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Well, yes, but then everyone would be asking, "Who was that wild man with the fancy wand work?" ...which sort of ruins the whole laying-low-until-I-get-the-stone-and-secure-my-immortality plan. I think hiring a stranger would be more discrete, have a greater margin for error, and entail a far, far easier clean-up if they do make a mess of things.

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wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2007 9:11 am (#8 of 65)

I didn't know this thread had been started and had posted this on the Hagrid thread #831.

I found another instance where this is mentioned. In OOTP, Harry considered Hagrid and the stranger:

Harry remembered Hagrid mentioning this pub in his first year: `Yeh get a lot o' funny folk in the Hogs Head,' he had said, explaining how he had won a dragon's egg from a hooded stranger there. At the time Harry had wondered why Hagrid had not found it odd that the stranger kept his face hidden throughout their encounter; now he saw that keeping your face hidden was something of a fashion in the Hog's Head.

What I found interesting is that JKR has Harry recall this event, but she does not have Harry recall who the stranger was supposed to have been. In other words, where JKR could have had the narration say "at the time Harry had wondered why Hagrid had not found it odd that Quirrell had kept his face hidden...." but instead the person Hagrid met in the Hogs Head is only referred to as "the stranger."

While this proves absolutely nothing, it does lend a bit of credence to the notion that in fact "the stranger" is still just that -- a stranger. We were never told in PS/SS that "the stranger" was actually Quirrell or Voldemort. Harry initially assumed it was either Snape or Voldemort. But we know it wasn't Snape and we can be fairly certain it wasn't just Voldemort since he didn't have a body. But at no point does Harry or the narration come back and affirm that it was Quirrell.

And then there's that mention of it in OOTP, and yet again, even though JKR has no problem mentioning all sorts of "spoilers" for the previous books, we are still not told that "the stranger" was Quirrell.

This might mean nothing. But if the stranger is just that -- still a stranger -- and will be revealed to be someone else altogether in DH, then it would have behooved JKR to mention this incident someplace further on in the series, after PS/SS and once again refer to the person as "the stranger."

Not on post #831 on the Hagrid thread:

I find it odd that Hagrid would not have recognized Quirrell's voice. Some have said Quirrell could have disguised his voice by dropping the stutter. But Hagrid had known Quirrell prior to his losing his nerve. In fact Quirrell had only been the highly fearful, stuttering type after he came back from his travels in which he got possessed by Voldemort. So if he'd just dropped the stutter, Hagrid should still have been able to recognize the "old Quirrell's" voice. After all, Hagrid conversed for some time with the stranger.

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Madam Pince - Jul 9, 2007 9:35 am (#9 of 65)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Hagrid also probably had had a few butterbeers while at the Hogs Head and may not have been at his most observant. We know he likes his drink.

The other "stranger" that I have always wondered about is the one who brought Aragog in his pocket. Could it be the same stranger? That's one more mention of a "stranger" if you're looking for one...

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wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2007 9:40 am (#10 of 65)

Hagrid also probably had had a few butterbeers while at the Hogs Head and may not have been at his most observant. We know he likes his drink. (Madam Pince)

While that might explain Hagrid not recognizing his voice, it doesn't explain the OOTP references not mentioning anything about who the stranger actually was -- no mention of it being Quirrell or Voldemort or both. There's no point in not mentioning it if it were Quirrell or Voldemort. JKR has no compunction about referring to the surprises or revelations of the previous books. She does it all the time. So why not mention who the stranger was?

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zelmia - Jul 9, 2007 10:56 am (#11 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Harry is sort of quoting his own thoughts here. Rather than generalizing, he is remembering his actual line of thinking during that conversation. Since at the time he and Hagrid were having the conversation Harry didn't know (or suspect) that "the stranger" was Quirrell or Voldemort (or even Snape), he just thinks it is odd that "the stranger" never took off his hood.
It isn't until later, when Harry puts 2 and 2 together, that he suspects "the stranger" was really Snape or Voldemort.

But if we're looking for a Stranger who may still be at large, my prime suspect would be Mundungus Fletcher. He is a known thief, he has been banned from the Hog's Head (if I recall correctly), which would explain why he never revealed his face; and he is certainly not above swindling even people he knows. How Dung might have obtained the dragon egg in the first place could have been any number of ways, but he obviously runs with a questionable crowd and I'm sure this wouldn't have been at all unusual. But Dung knew Hagrid from the first Order, and he certainly would have known that he could foist the egg onto Hagrid for some quick cash.

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Soul Search - Jul 9, 2007 11:53 am (#12 of 65)

The "stranger" and the dragon egg were not there by coincidence. It was a well conceived plot to wrest Fluffy's secret from Hagrid. Only Quirrell/Voldemort were interested in getting past Fluffy, so they must have been behind it, whoever actually talked to Hagrid.

My read has always been that Quirrell/voldemort was the "stranger," with Voldemort doing the talking. A different person would not have needed to hide under a cloak. They might still have, since it is the fashion in the Hogs Head, but Quirrell/Voldemort had to hide.

A hooded cloak would muffle any voice and, thus, conceal that the voice was coming out of the back of the stranger's head.

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Mattew Bates - Jul 9, 2007 12:09 pm (#13 of 65)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17 - The Man With Two Faces

"It's -- all -- my -- ruddy -- fault!" he sobbed, his face in his hands. I told the evil git how ter get past Fluffy! I told him! It was the only thing he didn't know, an' I told him! Yeh could've died! All fer a dragon egg! I'll never drink again! I should be chucked out an' made ter live as a Muggle!"

"Hagrid!" said Harry, shocked to see Hagrid shaking with grief and remorse, great tears leaking down into his beard. "Hagrid, he'd have found out somehow, this is Voldemort we're talking about, he'd have found out even if you hadn't told him."

While not 100% conclusive, both Harry and Hagrid are speaking as though Hagrid spoke directly to Voldemort, not an unknown intermediary. As to why Hagrid didn't recognize Quirrell's voice, it's possible Voldey did the talking.

As I have in the past, I'll gladly eat my serving of Crow if I'm wrong, but I think we're reading too much into the word JKR chose to use - I think she chose that word to emphasize how many strange individuals were in the Hog's Head at that moment.

edit - cross-posted with Soul Search

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wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2007 1:46 pm (#14 of 65)

But didn't Harry recognize when another voice, besides Quirrell's, was speaking out of the back of Quirrell's head? You'd think over the period of a longish conversation that Hagrid could tell if the stranger was not speaking through his mouth, but from the back of his head.

Yes, I know. It's probably Quirrell/Voldemort. But there's also the possibility that it isn't, because we were never directly told that it was, nor did JKR follow up in her later mentions of the event by saying that it was Quirrell or Voldemort. This is one of those things that Harry assumes and therefore we assume that we know. But in fact, the identity of the "stranger" was never directly revealed to either Harry or the reader.

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Choices - Jul 9, 2007 5:50 pm (#15 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Mattew, I'm with you on this one, although Wynnleaf is right in that we have not directly been told that the stranger was just that or was Quirrell/Voldemort. My money is on the stranger being Quirrell/Voldemort, and your quote convinces me even more.

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Solitaire - Jul 10, 2007 4:43 pm (#16 of 65)

Count me into the camp of those who believe the stranger was Quirrell/Voldemort. Quirrell was a DADA teacher and had dabbled sufficiently in the Dark Arts that I believe he could have taken on any appearance ... not to mention he had plenty of help just over his shoulder! Hagrid could also have been under some sort of confundus spell ... Q/V would have been the one who knew about Fluffy and the stone and needed the info.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jul 10, 2007 7:19 pm (#17 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Hagrid could also have been under some sort of confundus spell ...
Yeah, it's called "alcohol".

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Solitaire - Jul 11, 2007 5:41 pm (#18 of 65)

That, too ... but Quirrell might not have counted on Hagrid being that drunk and possibly "helped" him along.

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legolas returns - Jul 12, 2007 1:13 pm (#19 of 65)

I thought Hagrid had his own glass in the pub. I think it would take 2 glasses to drain a barrel.

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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2007 11:59 am (#20 of 65)

LOL Perhaps he drank directly from the keg!

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wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2007 12:52 pm (#21 of 65)

Obviously there's no proof or even evidence of anything. But there is an opening within canon for the "stranger" to be someone other than Quirrell/Voldemort.

I was interested in Levine, JKR's US editor, commenting that after reading the 7th book he was so impressed with how JKR had been setting so many pieces in motion from the very beginning and putting in bits and pieces of clues all the way from the first book. That's definitely not the way Levine said it, but I can't find the quote.

However I'm certain that JKR has been leaving what appear to be unremarkable clues throughout the books. We just don't know what's a clue and what's not. This could be one of those, because it is indefinite as regards the identity of the "stranger."

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Choices - Jul 13, 2007 5:47 pm (#22 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I firmly believe that it was Quirrell/Voldemort in the Hog's head, but let's pretend it was some stranger. It is now 6 years later and we have heard no mention of this stranger. Do you really believe that he is important to the story and will show up to play a vital role in book 7? It is Quirrell that Harry goes through the trapdoor and meets at the end of PS/SS and Quirrell is the one who would benefit from the information that Hagrid has about getting past Fluffy. Quirrell would never have been there to greet Harry in the end if he couldn't get past the three headed dog. Why drag some stranger into the story when Quirrell/Voldemort can do the job? JKR has enough going on without bringing in some stranger who never shows up again. I don't think she came right out and said it was Quirrell because it was so obvious that it was. She figured we were savvy enough to solve that little mystery.

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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2007 5:52 pm (#23 of 65)

I don't think she came right out and said it was Quirrell because it was so obvious that it was.

I agree with this. The only other option, IMO, would be Snape ... and that would mean he is on Voldemort's side ... wouldn't it? I mean, Peter wasn't "out" yet.

Solitaire

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Chemyst - Jul 13, 2007 9:23 pm (#24 of 65)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
It is now 6 years later and we have heard no mention of this stranger.

Are you sure? Let's see… List of suspects:

Amycus Carrow, DE who never went to Azkaban
Bozo, photographer for Daily Prophet in CS4, worked with Rita in GF
"Grubby Looking Wizard," thrown out of Three Broomsticks by Rosemerta HBP25
Kevin's dad, allowed his son to play with his wand at the World Cup
Bertha Jorkins' second cousin from Albania
"Will" the guy from whom Mundungus stole the toads and then sold them back to him in OP5
Jugson a DE who fought in the Battle at the MOM, OP35
Yaxley, Another DE who did not go to Azkaban
Arnold Peasegood, an Obliviator and trained hit-wizard.
Davy Gudgeon, student during the 70's who tried to outwit the Whomping Willow, PA10
With the possible exception of Kevins's dad, most of these characters have something shady about them.

Since he was a stranger to Hagrid, we can't really be sure if he's shown up later in a scene where Hagrid is not around.
If it was Quirrell, then he must have bathed in Mrs. Skower's All-Purpose Garlic Scent Remover before the meeting.

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Choices - Jul 14, 2007 10:03 am (#25 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soli, I think if it had been Snape, he would have employed some Veritaserum on Hagrid to get the information he wants. It would be all too easy to let his hand slip over Hagrid's bucket of mead.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 14, 2007 10:21 am (#26 of 65)

Chemyst, an interesting list I would also add Malfoy, Avery, and Macnair, because, it is said that they wormed his their way out of terms in Azkaban by claiming to have been acting under the influence of the Imperius Curse.

I doubt the stranger was an untransformed Pettigrew because even in a drunken state Hagrid would have recognized him.

Note: I edited and reposted to achieve a higher degree of clarity.

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wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2007 9:27 pm (#27 of 65)

It is now 6 years later and we have heard no mention of this stranger. Do you really believe that he is important to the story and will show up to play a vital role in book 7? Why drag some stranger into the story when Quirrell/Voldemort can do the job? JKR has enough going on without bringing in some stranger who never shows up again. (Choices)

If Quirrell/Voldemort isn't the answer to who was the stranger, it's not so JKR can haul out some new character in DH. After all -- no new characters in Book 7, right?

No, the whole interest in the "stranger" stems from considering the prospect of a final traitor in Book 7. And if there is a traitor in DH, some people (not necessarily me, but I still think it's quite possible) feel that said traitor would not only be a character we've already been introduced to, but could be a particular big "surprise" traitor and we'd find that he/she had been active all the way back to the first book. If JKR did that, well it's obvious she'd have to have made preparation for such a revelation, complete with revelations of how this person had been involved through the years doing his/her nefarious deeds. And naturally, said deeds couldn't just be out of the blue, but directly connected to things we readers and Harry thought we all knew, but in fact had got wrong all along.

So that's where "the stranger" comes in. A place where JKR could have quite conveniently and neatly laid a trap for us and Harry to think we knew exactly what was going on, all the while never actually telling us who the "stranger" really was -- perfectly set up for the "reveal all" in Book 7, when Harry learns how someone has been working for Voldemort all along.

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zelmia - Jul 14, 2007 9:45 pm (#28 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Harry does suggest that it's either Snape or Voldemort under the cloak at the Hog's Head. Snape having been a true Death Eater all along doesn't seem like such a great surprise at this point.

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wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2007 10:11 pm (#29 of 65)

Naturally, it being me after all, Snape wasn't in my list of possible traitors to be revealed in DH.

Anyway, Harry thought it was Snape or Voldemort because at the time he thought Snape was the one helping Voldemort in PS/SS. Later, although we're not directly told, we (the readers) assume that the stranger must have been Quirrell, since it wouldn't have been Snape. But we're never actually told that.

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Choices - Jul 15, 2007 9:33 am (#30 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I just find it difficult to believe we are going to have the revelation of a traitor in book 7 based on one mention of this "stranger" (who is probably Quirrell) in book one. Now if this stranger/traitor had been mentioned/hinted at in each book, I might find it easier to believe. I personally think we have seen all the traitors we are going to see. I think book 7 is going to be mainly about destroying the Horcruxes, vanquishing Voldemort and hopefully, lots of backstory.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 10:02 am (#31 of 65)

Choices and Nathan, I do not think it was either Snape or Peter ... I just tossed them in as the most likely options at the time. In order for it to have been Snape, he has to have been Voldy's man all along ... and Peter was still "in hiding" as Scabbers.

Judging from the turnout we saw in the graveyard, it appears most of the DEs "on the outside" (including Lucius) thought Voldemort was dead and gone. Who among them would have even known about the Philosopher's Stone or it's presence at Hogwarts? For it to be someone other than Quirrell, wouldn't this mean that someone else was aware of Voldy's current state of existence and was in on the plan? Just asking ...

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Jul 15, 2007 10:07 am (#32 of 65)

Librarian
I haven't seen anything in the books to make me think that it was anyone other than Quirrell. Choices brings up a good point. For this traitor to become only real in DH there would have had to have been other hints in the intervening books. Since I haven't picked up on any I don't think that any traitor, and there may well be one or more, will have any relation to this undistinguished character in SS/PS.

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zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 10:12 am (#33 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well the only reason I don't think it was Snape is not because he was not in a position to be the guy, but because, based on what we know of Snape's character, I can't see Snape offering Hagrid anything in return for the information even under the pretense of "gambling". Snape would use his wiles to learn what he needed and then go. He wouldn't stick around playing cards.

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wynnleaf - Jul 15, 2007 11:50 am (#34 of 65)

Reply to Choice's comments:

I just find it difficult to believe we are going to have the revelation of a traitor in book 7 based on one mention of this "stranger" (who is probably Quirrell) in book one.

It wouldn't be based on the stranger. The stranger would be just one place among many where a revelation could show that the traitor of Book 7 had been active throughout the series, or at least since the beginning of the series (not necessarily in each book). Other instances of the traitor's activity in the series almost certainly wouldn't be in the guise of a "stranger." Good grief, no self-respecting author would dot her series with an unknown "stranger." If the traitor has been in action since the first, the instances would have to all be different, not one stranger and that's all, nor repeated strangers.

Now if this stranger/traitor had been mentioned/hinted at in each book, I might find it easier to believe.

As I said just above, that's why no author trying to pull off planting long standing clues would use a "stranger" over and over. It would be a giveaway Just once or maybe twice and then in other cases, the actions of the traitor would be hinted at in other ways.

I personally think we have seen all the traitors we are going to see.

Why? What reason can you think of for assuming that JKR would give up a six book pattern in her last book? Yes, I suppose she could give it up. But we have no reason to believe she will any more than we should assume that the point of view will suddenly no longer be primarily Harry, but some other character. She has established a consistent pattern and without any evidence to the contrary it is reasonable to assume she'll continue it.

I think book 7 is going to be mainly about destroying the Horcruxes, vanquishing Voldemort and hopefully, lots of backstory.

Gosh I hope not, at least as far as the horcruxes and Voldemort. I'm hoping the horcrux hunt will be more of a vehicle for the real story -- just like the Triwizard Tasks weren't the real story of GOF. And Voldemort himself has, to date, been a relatively boring character -- cardboard cutout villain. Now the backstory, that's something else altogether. JKR's comments about her 10-15 variations on the first chapter of PS/SS put together and giving away the whole story make it seem like JKR considers the backstory as important as Harry's story. So if JKR reveals a traitor in Book 7 that goes back all the way through the series, then it wouldn't be surprising if that character is related to the backstory as well.

It's not that I definitely think the traitor of DH will go all the way back through the series. That's one particular view of the traitor situation.

Nevertheless, I do think that JKR has been setting up many of the revelations in DH throughout the entire series. In fact, US editor Levine seemed to be alluding to that in his recent interview. So it wouldn't be surprising if one of those revelations - a spy in Book 7 - also had its roots in the earliest parts of the story.

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Choices - Jul 15, 2007 12:27 pm (#35 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Wynnleaf, we obviously have very different expectations for book 7, so we will have to agree to disagree. :-)

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zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 1:19 pm (#36 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
There has been a "traitor" in every book to now. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to assume that DH would not also have some sort of traitor. The Stranger at the Hog's Head from Book 1 could very well be someone we know and be revealed as the self-same "stranger" from Book 1.

My prime suspects (should this turn out to be true) would be:
Mundungus Fletcher. He is a known thief, not above stealing even from people he knows or is allied with. He is clearly the most likely to have come across a dragon egg and, knowing Hagrid's affinity for dragons, would know who to go to for a quick galleon. I believe there is also a passage that tells how Dung had been barred from the Hog's Head at one point; so that would explain why he wouldn't want to remove his hood.

Wormtail. No one knew he wasn't dead, at this point. Ron wasn't watching Scabbers every moment (particularly after he'd gone to bed) so Wormtail could very easily have tranformed, kept himself hooded and all the rest. If the Stranger does turn out to be Wormtail, his "treachery" may come at Voldemort's expense due to the Life Debt, as opposed to the standard "traitor" M.O.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 3:25 pm (#37 of 65)

Zelmia, I could buy Dung as the mysterious stranger ... except why would he want to pump Hagrid about Fluffy? That is the only reason I do not believe it was Dung.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 5:52 pm (#38 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Good point, Soli. But perhaps Dung wasn't "pumping Hagrid" as much as Hagrid was simply talking about what was going on up at the castle. I mean, Hagrid let quite a bit slip to the Trio when he was sober. Imagine what he could have revealed after a few flaggons of mead.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 6:57 pm (#39 of 65)

Yes, Hagrid admits he couldn't remember too much about the conversation " 'cause he kept buyin' me drinks ..." It sounds to me as though whoever was under that hood knew Hagrid was in on the secret and knew he had a loose lip, particularly when he was drinking ... so he kept plying him with booze to get him talking and keep him talking ... and work the conversation around to Fluffy.

As a member of staff, Quirrell probably would have known about Hagrid's passion to own a dragon, so he chose the perfect enticement. He would also have been in a pretty good position to know what time of night Hagrid slipped out for a drink in Hogsmeade. He certainly could have disguised his voice--in fact, we know he is capable of this. The smell emanating from his turban wouldn't have been noticeable in the smelly Hog's Head pub, either. I still think it was Quirrell. He refused to take off his hood because he knew Hagrid would recognize him. Even if he was disguised in some way--and as a DADA professor, I bet he could do that, too--he still had that turban on his head.

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - Jul 15, 2007 9:24 pm (#40 of 65)

Without some sort of added disguise going on, I'd think that it would be easy to tell that someone was wearing something large under the hood of a cloak.

Otherwise, I agree that Hagrid would likely have recognized the face of the person under the hood. In addition, the stranger knew Hagrid well enough to know just how to get him talking about Fluffy.

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legolas returns - Jul 16, 2007 12:20 am (#41 of 65)

Hagrid probably did not recognise the man as Quirrel because he was not stuttering.

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wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2007 6:58 am (#42 of 65)

If I understood correctly, Quirrell's stuttering was part of the losing of his nerve that occurred while he was off on his travels (and getting taken over by LV). But Hagrid knew Quirrell before that happened, so presumably he knew Quirrell before he stuttered -- which would only have been about a year and a half previously.

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Chemyst - Jul 16, 2007 9:31 am (#43 of 65)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I think the stranger was — a stranger. Just as Mark Evans was just a neighborhood kid.
Snape describes Quirrell as a mediocre wizard. It makes sense that Quirrell hired (or possibly imperioed) a stooge to lose an egg to Hagrid. A mediocre wizard would not want to risk getting caught. When Draco was working for LV, he tried to get others to do all the risky stuff for him.

As for DH; I think the remaining traitors will either betray Voldemort, or they will cause peripheral trouble for the good side by targeting Harry's supporters. Harry is into the home stretch now and he may not have any personal "Surprise!" traitors. He should know his enemy.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 16, 2007 10:36 am (#44 of 65)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
It could have been Quirrell with Tom doing the talking. Hagrid has never heard him before. Just my opinion.

Mickey

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Choices - Jul 16, 2007 11:52 am (#45 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Mickey. This was not just a mediocre wizard, this was a wizard possessed (and empowered) by Lord Voldemort. He didn't need to be wearing the turban under the hood, the hood alone would hide Voldemort on the back of his head. That is probably why he didn't take the hood off.

Quirrell's stuttering was a put on - he wanted people to think he lost his nerve and feel sorry for him, but he turned it off quickly enough when he faced Harry at the end.

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wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2007 9:59 am (#46 of 65)

Quirrell's stuttering was a put on - he wanted people to think he lost his nerve and feel sorry for him, but he turned it off quickly enough when he faced Harry at the end. (Choices)

Exactly. Which means Hagrid was quite familiar with Quirrell's non-stuttering voice.

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Joanne Reid - Jul 17, 2007 10:28 am (#47 of 65)

Hi,

In spite of the cogent arguments made for others, I remain convinced that the stranger was Quirrel.

As we remember, on the Night of the Troll, Quirrel headed to the third floor to investigate the nature of the protective device in place behind the door. This was confirmed by Quirrel himself.

It would not take a leap of intuition to consider that a Cerberus could only have come from Hagrid. After all, who else would consider an acromantula, a three-headed dog or a thestral as cute and cuddly creatures to be loved and tended? Further, Hagrid had made it known that he wanted to raise a dragon, no doubt convinced that he could control and train it. For Tom Riddle, who had known Hagrid at school, it was obvious who had arranged for such a creature to be guarding the trap door.

We simply don't know how Quirrel / Voldemort obtained the dragon egg. However, it would be relatively easy, albeit expensive, to get Hagrid drunk. In that condition, and in exchange for a dragon's egg, Hagrid could easily be manipulated. The combination of inebriation, greed and clever questioning would have been all that was necessary to obtain the needed information. Let's remember, for instance, how easy is was for HRH to extract the vital information from him.

As for discovery, I doubt that was any problem. As long as Quirrel / Voldemort kept his heads down and his hood up, his faces would have been hidden. Hagrid's eyes would have been on the dragon egg, and his intoxication would have done the rest. Regardless, all Quirrel had to do was disguise his voice and not stammer.

Once this was accomplished, Quirrel / Voldemort could pass by Fluffy to overcome the rest of the protections. That's why I had always assumed that Quirrel / Voldemort had been the stranger. And, in spite of the excelllent arguments to the contrary, I remain convinced that it was Quirrel and not some other character.

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Choices - Jul 17, 2007 10:44 am (#48 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Joanne, that's a well presented argument for Quirrell being the one who talked to Hagrid in the Hog's Head. I agree with you.

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Allison R - Jul 17, 2007 11:56 am (#49 of 65)

Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
How exactly did Hagrid know Quirrel from before the year that Quirrel taught DADA? I don't remember that (although I have no doubt it's correct LOL I think I have finally succeeded in finding a bunch of people more anal about details than ME! Wait until I tell my 11 year-old that I am not alone in my determination to get things right) from my readings of the books.

I agree Joanne-- very well presented. It makes perfect sense to me that it could very well have happened just that way

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zelmia - Jul 17, 2007 12:20 pm (#50 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
When Hagrid takes Harry to Diagon Alley for the first time, he introduces Harry to a bunch of people in the Leaky Cauldron, one of whom is Quirrell. He tells Harry that Quirrell "was fine when he was studying out of books. But then he took a year off to get some first-hand experience..."


Prior to Book 6, I had always assumed that Quirrell had been the DADA teacher for a few years at least. But after the revelation that the DADA teacher position was indeed cursed, I could only conclude that Quirrell must have taught a year (from books only), then taken a year off (when he met Voldemort), then returned to take up the post again.

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Allison R - Jul 17, 2007 12:34 pm (#51 of 65)

Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Thanks, Zelmia! I had totally overlooked that.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 17, 2007 5:27 pm (#52 of 65)

If the stranger isn't Quirrel and is a traitor then I propose that it is Ludo Bagman instead of Mungdungus Fletcher.

As I see it Mungdungus is set up to be Voldemort's man, while Ludo is relatively innocent. Everyone knows he was too stupid to be a Death Eater. (GOF, his trial, no one took it seriously that he could be a Death Eater). In Gof he ran off because he had gambling debt with the goblins. It's possible that Voldemort (through Lucius) paid them off insuring Ludo's loyalty.

I think it's possible that Ludo is a Death Eater through and through and acting as a spy for Voldemort. Ludo could have been paid off by Quirrel to get the information about how to slip past Fluffy.

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Soul Search - Jul 18, 2007 7:00 am (#53 of 65)

rambkowalczyk,

I still think it was Quirrell/Voldemort, but your observations about Bagman are interesting.

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zelmia - Jul 18, 2007 5:13 pm (#54 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I believe Bill remarks that the Goblins never got their gold from Ludo Bagman. Of course, if what you say is true, ramb, we could interpret that literally, meaning that it was Voldemort who paid them off.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 19, 2007 9:49 am (#55 of 65)

Ramb,I always thought there might be more going on with Ludo.It won't surprise me if we see him in DH. There's still Winky's remark about his being a "very bad wizard" to consider.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 19, 2007 11:22 am (#56 of 65)

I believe that Bagman was just a (very big) red herring in GOF. I think that Bill's remark is there so that we could forget him in peace. Then again, I've certainly been wrong before

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2007 11:50 am (#57 of 65)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
It's true, though, about Winky. There may well be more of that particular little side-plot to come.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm (#58 of 65)

Both the Bagman's are dodgy I think both are capable of deceiving Hagrid.

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valuereflection - Jul 21, 2007 8:35 pm (#59 of 65)

Edited Jul 21, 2007 9:32 pm
It could have been Quirrell with Tom doing the talking. Hagrid has never heard him before. Just my opinion. --MickeyCee3948

This is not true. In Chamber of Secrets chapter 13, Hagrid had a long conversation with Tom Riddle, in which Tom framed Hagrid for murder and Hagrid's beloved pet ran away from Riddle and barely escaped with its life. This was a traumatic, life-changing experience for Hagrid. He said how awful it was: "Kep' goin' over horrible stuff in me mind... the day I got expelled from Hogwarts..." (Prisoner of Azkaban, chapter 11) Thus Hagrid did not forget Tom Riddle's voice, despite it having been a decade or longer since he heard Voldemort speak.

However, many posters on this thread gave convincing arguments that the stranger was probably Quirrel/Voldemort. (unless he is a surprise twist in Deathly Hallows)

How did Quirrel avoid being recognized by Hagrid? He knew both Riddle and Quirrel well enough to recognize their voices. I think he knew Quirrel well enough, from living for years at Hogwarts, to be able to recognize Quirrel's gait, gestures, and posture, and also well enough to recognize Quirrel from seeing part of his face in shadow. (Harry can recognize Hogwarts teachers by their gait in shadow -- think Snape -- but Hagrid would be better still than Harry at recognizing these things, because Hagrid must observe carefully in order to care for animals.) Not to mention that Hagrid might sense a whiff of garlic if the door to the bar opened and blew a draft in their direction. Quirrel/Voldemort was talking intimately with Hagrid for several hours -- this would have been a very big risk for Voldemort to take. So how did he and Quirrel pull it off?

They probably could not cast a spell on Hagrid. Recall that in Order of the Phoenix chapter 31, Ron told us that "all the spells bounced off him," and Hermione explained that it is very hard for spells to affect Hagrid because of his giant blood. I suspect this effect would apply with spells generally and not just with Stunning spells.

I think Quirrel took Polyjuice Potion. He needed to impersonate someone who Hagrid would not recognize. Polyjuice Potion would disguise his voice very well. (See chapter 12 of Chamber of Secrets; Harry and Ron's trouble in the movie with Crabbe and Goyle's voices was movie contamination.) I suspect the potion would disguise both his body odor and gait, too. Combined with wearing a hood and keeping in shadow, polyjuice potion would have made it unlikely for Hagrid to recognize any idiosyncratic gestures or posture.

But how would they keep Hagrid from suspecting Polyjuice Potion? What if he recalled the polyjuice impersonations during the first wizarding war? (He was a member of the original Order of the Phoenix.) In Philosopher's Stone chapter 4, Hagrid described his experience in the first wizarding war: "Didn't know who ter trust, didn't dare get friendly with strange wizards or witches." Quirrel/Voldemort did not want Hagrid to recall any vigilance or watch-my-tongue, so they got him drunk. Quirrel knew Hagrid well, too, as several posters described; next Quirrel pumped Hagrid for the information.

Thank you for this thread. This question has nagged at the back of my mind. I enjoyed thinking of new ideas while I read everyone's comments.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 3, 2007 1:50 pm (#60 of 65)

In Jo's recent chat on the Bloomsbury website I think she said that the person who Hagrid met was Voldemort/Quirrel.

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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 5:43 am (#61 of 65)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I am so disappointed in Hagrid then. I know he makes a lot of blundering errors, and that side of the story works; but I thought he'd have a better sense of detecting character. I guess I expected him to be more like the dog who growls at the new boyfriend because it knows that under the dashing smile he is a scoundrel at heart. It's easy to forgive Hagrid for letting his guard down around the trio since they're the good guys, and back in PS still relatively innocent. But to not have any spidey sense (Aragogy sense?) about a stranger at the Hog's Head…. I am sorely disappointed in him.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2007 9:55 am (#62 of 65)

Hagrid's flaw was his desire for a dragon, something that Riddle might have remembered. This desire overshadowed his common sense.

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Choices - Aug 4, 2007 10:02 am (#63 of 65)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Confundus Charm? Perhaps?

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valuereflection - Aug 4, 2007 11:00 am (#64 of 65)

How many people have we watched in these books being attracted to and flattered by Tom Riddle? For example, Helena Ravenclaw, most of the Hogwarts staff, Ron (when he destroyed the Horcrux), Ginny and Harry in Book 2, Quirrel, and more. When we got to know Riddle, he said, "I've always been able to charm the people I needed." (CS chapter 17) Harry consoled Helena Ravenclaw, "Well, you weren't the first person Riddle wormed things out of. He could be charming when he wanted..." (DH chapter 31) Dumbledore said of Ginny, "There will be no punishment. Older and wiser wizards than she have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort." (CS chapter 18)

Hagrid admitted his mistakes. He acknowledged the consequences of him letting his guard down, talking and sharing too much with a stranger, and succumbing to the temptation of a long-desired pet: "...I told the evil git... Yeh could've died! All for a dragon egg!"

Hagrid was full of such remorse at the end of PS. He begged forgiveness and felt he deserved the punishment of being sacked and forced to live as a Muggle. Instead, Dumbledore told him a way to atone for his mistake and not to work at his job until he fixed his mistake. I think it was harder for Hagrid to make the photo album than it would be for other people. His hands were cumbersomely large, he wasn't allowed to do magic, and every photo reminded him of how sad Harry's life had been.

He even acknowledged his weakness for drink at that time. ("I'll never drink again!") Its too bad that the wizarding world does not have the equivalent of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that Dumbledore did not recommend he join it -- but then the story would have been different and maybe not as funny.

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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2007 3:42 pm (#65 of 65)

I am so disappointed in Hagrid then. I know he makes a lot of blundering errors, and that side of the story works; but I thought he'd have a better sense of detecting character.

I simply do not feel we can discount the fact that Quirrell was being possessed by Voldemort, and that--as a DADA professor and under the tutelage of LV--he must have had ways of disguising himself and his voice that Hagrid couldn't possibly have recognized, even if he had seen his face.

Solitaire
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