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Severus Snape
Mona Fri May 20, 2011 9:24 am
This is a series of archived threads about Severus Snape, orginally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011.
ARCHIVISTS
Julia H. (Volumes 1, 2 & 6)
Lady Arabella (Volumes 3, 4 & 5)
Mona (Volumes 7 & 8 )
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Last edited by Mona on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:54 am; edited 29 times in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 61
Location : India
Severus Snape, Volume 1 (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003)
Mona Fri May 20, 2011 9:25 am
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 12:05 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 30, 2007 5:52 am
I edited the title of this thread from Severus Snape #1 to Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003). When this thread was closed, a new thread Severus Snape continued the discussion. - Kip Mar 9, 2004 9:23am
I edited the title of this thread by adding in #1, added an additional thread The vacancy Snape wished to fill... at the end as message #621 along with the 23 messages that had been at part of that thread, and closed out posting to this thread. - Kip Carter Nov 13, 2003 2:05am
Our favorite potions master that everyone loves to hate (and some of us love to love) So.. what will Snape's upcoming role be? Is he good, but written to be bad? Is he bad? Will he return to Voldemort? Has he done so already as a spy? Have at, you Snape-aholics.
INDEX VOLUME 1
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 30, 2007 5:52 am
I edited the title of this thread from Severus Snape #1 to Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003). When this thread was closed, a new thread Severus Snape continued the discussion. - Kip Mar 9, 2004 9:23am
I edited the title of this thread by adding in #1, added an additional thread The vacancy Snape wished to fill... at the end as message #621 along with the 23 messages that had been at part of that thread, and closed out posting to this thread. - Kip Carter Nov 13, 2003 2:05am
Our favorite potions master that everyone loves to hate (and some of us love to love) So.. what will Snape's upcoming role be? Is he good, but written to be bad? Is he bad? Will he return to Voldemort? Has he done so already as a spy? Have at, you Snape-aholics.
INDEX VOLUME 1
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Last edited by Mona on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:50 am; edited 12 times in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 61
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Posts 1 to 50
Mona Fri May 20, 2011 9:30 am
Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 12:34 pm (#1 of 644)
Edited Aug 29, 2003 1:35 pm
I think that Snape is neither 100% bad or good. He is somewhere between the two.
1)In the recent Albert Hall interview JKR said something along the lines that although Snape was on the good side we should not like him to much. I was wondering whether this comment had anything to do with the Occulmency lessons and the way he was treated during his time with Snape? Snape seemed to automatically go searching for the worst memories that Harry had? It might have been easier for Harry to learn to block something that was not quite as distressing. He is constantly horrible to him in potions. How childish was that breaking Harrys vial of potion.
2)I wonder what exactly Snape did so that Dumbly trusted him? It must have been something big if he had previously been a Death Eater. He is working as a spy for the order which is another good point but how is he doing it? Has he gone back to the DE and if so might his evil tendancys come to the fore?
3)He has also helped protect Harry to some extent in earlier adventures.
Moony's Heir - Aug 29, 2003 12:39 pm (#2 of 644)
Severus Snape or PerseusEvans?
We were discussing this last in the temp. forum and I guess we can continue with it? If Severus is Perseus, what(if there is any) is his relation to Lily?Her step-brother? Her cousin? Shoot away ,folks...
A-is-for-Amy - Aug 29, 2003 12:39 pm (#3 of 644)
I felt that when JKR made that comment, that she meant that Snape had done something horrible in his past that we haven't found out about yet. Even though he is horrible to Harry and other students, I have trouble seeing him betray them all.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 12:42 pm (#4 of 644)
I wonder what exactly he did as a death eater? Even being in that group suggests an extreeme level of nastiness.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 12:47 pm (#5 of 644)
Moony's Heir- the Snape as Perseus theory was actually talked about in great lengths already on this forum.. try the search feature or browse the thread entitled "Snape and Lily Evans.. does it hold water?" It might interest you!
I also took JKR's statement to mean that Snape might do something we won't like OR he has done something terrible that we don't know about yet. And I REALLY want to know why Dumbledore trusts him implicitly.
mollis - Aug 29, 2003 12:47 pm (#6 of 644)
I really like the idea that Snape was in love with Lilly during school when James was being mean to him. He probably fell in love with her because she was defending him. And I think it was his love for Lilly that made him betray Voldemort and warn Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters and intended to kill Harry. I think that is why Snape became a double-agent.
Viola Intonada - Aug 29, 2003 12:55 pm (#7 of 644)
I have two thoughts on why DD trusts Snape:
1) DD saved Snape once, so Snape is bound to DD through that type of magic or..
2) Snape is actually a tranfigured rogue House Elf and belongs to the Dumbledore family
I can't think of many other reasons why DD would trust him. Snape's actions and attitude toward Harry is out of line a lot of the time.
Moony's Heir - Aug 29, 2003 1:12 pm (#8 of 644)
Sorry,Sly girl...anyway, I strongly believe that Dumbledore trusts Snape because Snape still has a role play(sorta like why Gandalf trusted Gollum in LoTR). Though there may not be any prophecy about Snape, he may be in search of a goal that is far more important to him than being a DE or hating the Potters. And ,I do believe that Snape will be the successor of Dumbledore: as the headmaster.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 1:18 pm (#9 of 644)
Tis okay, Moony. I just thought you might be interested in reading what we had wrote about that topic, way back when.
Interesting, you don't think McGonagall would be successor, since she is 'deputy Headmistress' now? I honestly can't see Snape being in charge of the whole school, he just wouldn't have the patience for it, I think.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 1:23 pm (#10 of 644)
He would probably be a Phineus Nigellus clone.
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 3:11 pm (#11 of 644)
The patience, nor the tolerance. I would think as headmaster you'd have to at least be fair!
My take on why DD trusts Snape, though I'm also dying to know the real reason, is that he performed some kind of selfless act of kindness to a potential victim(s) of Old Morty's. Such as being ordered to kill or participate in the torture of someone he had no obvious ties to, and either stopping it or telling DD about it before it happened. Not very original, but certainly plausible knowing Dumbledore. Whatever it was, I'm convinced that it had to be a genuine act of repentance, showing that he truly saw the error of the DE's ways.
Hem Hem - Aug 29, 2003 3:22 pm (#12 of 644)
Viola Intonada, your idea that Snape is in life-debt to DD is really interesting.
Makes me wonder: If Dumbledore saved Snape's life, and James saved Snape's life, that's enough to make Snape feel rather delicate and succeptible. Perhaps that could be yet another source of his bitterness.
Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2003 3:42 pm (#13 of 644)
Edited Aug 29, 2003 4:43 pm
People are wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much. I think it's simply because he's a Ligilimens (sp?). Snape must have decided he didn't want to be on the Dark Side anymore, came back and said so to Dumbledore. Dumbledore would know he was telling the truth because he can read his mind. He knew Sirius was telling the truth when he heard his side of things in PoA. Remember, he came into the hospital wing already believing what had happened without even hearing it from Harry, Ron and Hermione? He didn't even need to check.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 4:59 pm (#14 of 644)
Are you talking about Dumbledore knowing the truth in PoA or Snape? Because Snape was definitely not believing a thing in PoA- which makes me wonder- why didn't he use his 'gift' with Occulmency then? Why didn't he just look at Sirius or Lupin and read into their thoughts?
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 5:33 pm (#15 of 644)
On the point of Dumbledore using Legilimency to figure out what's going on with Snape... DD says he's a powerful enough legilimens to know when he's being lied to (and knowing his modesty, he's surely much stronger), but he wasn't legilimens enough to know that Moody was really Crouch Jr., so I believe there must be a limit.??
On the point of why Snape didn't just reach into someone's head to figure out what the truth was, I don't believe he was at the point of listening to reason. He was a bit over the edge with his mania there. Personally I think he wanted very much to believe that Sirius was a DE and a murderer, and even more than that he wanted to get the credit for catching him. (--Even if he didn't believe Sirius murdered Peter and the Muggles, I don't think it unreasonable to believe that Snape would have been more than satisfied to have Sirius back in Azkaban for no better reason than because 'he existed')
Pinky - Aug 29, 2003 7:14 pm (#16 of 644)
Yes, I believe Snape was over the edge in PoA. There are people that will refuse to believe the truth, even if it is staring them in the face. *cough - Umbridge/Fudge- cough* Snape could have told himself that he already knew the truth, so he didn't need to look into anyone's mind. Remember, though, he doesn't exactly read their minds. "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader." (Ootp, p. 530, American edition) Also, in order to do Occlumency/Legilimency well, one needs to be emptied of emotion. Snape was hardly in any shape to do that.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 10:24 pm (#17 of 644)
Ah, merci beaucoup, mon amie. Thanks for hitting me with that fine Snapeism. You're right he was highly upset during that time period. Fancy him getting after Harry for being the same way?
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 29, 2003 11:03 pm (#18 of 644)
I don't think it's a question of good or evil with Snape. He's wholly and completely an evil, sadistic man with only one redeeming quality: for whatever reason, he is completely loyal to Dumbledore.
He does absolutely dispicable things. Things ranging from threatening to poision Neville's toad to his undying (though IMHO justified) quest to get Harry Potter thrown out of Hogwarts.
And I still say he's a terrible head of house. If he does care one iota about the students under his guidance, he doesn't seem to care enough to fix the out of control nature of the Slytherin house. Nay, he encourages their foul behavior by playing favorites and protecting his own house from justice.
At least McGonnigal tries to keep order with the bunch of rule-breaking ragamuffins she gets charged with. She's not afraid to clean her own house. There's no doubt that McGonnigal's heart is in the right place.
Snape, however, is not bullying Neville to 'try to help him become a better wizard.' He isn't doing Draco any favors by letting him be a little prat and get away with it any time the greasy-haired ruleshield is around.
Despite the fact that he seems to be the greatest potions master around, he still can't keep his professionalism intact. The one and only time he's given free reign over DADA classes, he uses them to bully Hermoine and cause harm to Professor Lupin.
There is nothing good about Snape. He doesn't care one iota for anyone other than himself, and for some reason Dumbledore. Take Dumbledore out of the equation, and I assure you that while he may not turn Death Eater, you'll see just how evil he can be.
timrew - Aug 30, 2003 12:24 am (#19 of 644)
I posted this on the other forum, but hope to re-introduce the discussion here. It has been said what a great proponent of Occlumency Snape is, so that he can even fool Voldemort into believing he is a bona fide Death Eater.
Well, if he can do it with Voldemort, why not with Dumbledore? Could he have been a double-agent all along, having fooled Dumbledore into thinking that he has 'returned to the fold'?
After all, JKR has told us not to get too fond of Snape. What do you think?
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 2:59 am (#20 of 644)
However, don't forget the most important rule of the HP Universe:
"Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard in the world."
Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 6:07 am (#21 of 644)
: sigh : I am too tired and ill this morning to trumpet my fighting words full throttle, SP. But I could not reenter the fray without defending my Severus.
Yes, he can be a petty man at times. But I do think, aside from living out his little revenge fantasies and amusing himself, that he is genuinely softening up Draco et al so they will not be capable of going the full fight when the time comes. He's playing a role, which means there are certain things he has no choice about doing. Favouring Draco is one of them.
I also think he is genuinely interested in the safety of Harry and the other kids. Yes, he threatens them with poison and such. But he doesn't actually do it. I thought for sure that his hand was shown in OoP when he gave the fake veritaserum and when he told Crabbe (or Goyle?) to loosen up on Neville. But I see there's no amount of convincing some people...
Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 8:21 am (#22 of 644)
I don't agree that Snape is evil. Petty, bitter, bullying? Certainly. However, DD trusts him, and that ALONE precludes his evil. His attitude toward Potter is due to old bitterness towards his father and ?possible? unknown feelings toward his mother (if he was in love with Lily, it would hurt him a great deal for her to marry his former tormentor James, and Harry, who looks like his father, is a living memory that she loved someone else). I think his bullying in class is more that he is one who 'doesn't tolerate fools lightly'. While he is a bit meaner about it, McGonagall is much the same way.
As for Draco, remember who he is. Snape is, to Lucias Malfoy, a fellow Deatheater. (Although he was pardoned by the MoM, no one ever says publically why, so most, including other Deatheaters, probably don't know why). I'm quite sure that DD was watching over Potter carefully in his first year, as this was the first 'public' appearance since Voldemort was defeated. I'll bet that several former Deatheaters would have loved to kill him, and so DD watched over him and I'm willing to bet DD encouraged Snape to 'cultivate' a closeness w/ Draco to keep him 'undercover'. Thus Snape has to tolerate Draco's foolishness and pretend to favor him (I suspect that Snape loathes the little self-important twit). This is also a part of the reason for Snape's public treatment of Potter (he'd raise suspicions real soon if he didn't treat him that way, i'll wager!)
As for Snape's behavior in PoA, he was overwhelmed by his emotions. (Remember, OoP gives us an insight on just how Snape was treated by Potter and Black, and very nearly lost his life to Lupin because of Black).
If Snape were truly evil, a true Deatheater still (as some have speculated), Harry Potter would be dead already. Don't forget the Quiddich match when Snape saved Potter from Quirrel's curse! Snape is just an A@%*#-hole, but a trustworthy one. I for one hope to see him redeemed a little more, and perhaps a grudging respect grow between him and Harry, as Harry grows up and becomes more mature in his responses to Snape's provacation.
Lady Margot - Aug 30, 2003 9:31 am (#23 of 644)
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 31, 2003 5:57 am
I have to think that Snape in PoA was reacting more to Sirius as the author of his pain from when he was in school more than as the escaped and dangerous prisoner that everyone thought he was. Everyone has a blind spot - Harry and the Marauders would be Snape's. As for the way he treats his students: if we assume he was a spy for Dumbledore during the first rise of Voldie then we must assume he took on a more exagerated version of his own personality to keep people at bay - makes it easier to be believed as a Death Eater if people don't see you being nice to kids. Unfortunately that type of personna is hard to lose - especially if you've lived it for a while. It was probably easier on him to keep up the walls after Voldie was "gone" - especially if neither he nor Dumbledore could really say that Voldie was gone for good. Now he's back at playing the spy game and the personna has become even more entrenched. The fact that he hates the sight of Potter because of who he reminds him of can only be to the good when playing a returning Death Eater. It wouldn't do for your boss to think you are actually keeping that rule-braking, ungrateful kid alive because you like him (which I'm sure he doesn't). Is he a detestable person? Yep - but he didn't force kids to carve lines into their hands during detention like a certain replacement head mistress sent by the MoM did he? He might be unfair - but has he actually caused physical pain like that witch did? He's kept that kid alive despite himself and gotten no acknowledgment for it. I'd be pretty annoyed too if I risked my hide to help the kid get around a questioning by the Wicked Witch of the West and then got blamed for something I had no control over. Margot (who probably didn't make a lot of sense with this reply).
I have edited a part of this post by removing words and replacing those two with three words which I felt were more appropriate for this Forum. -Kip
fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 9:40 am (#24 of 644)
Edited Aug 30, 2003 10:41 am
No, Margot, you made sense, at least to me, and probably to a lot of others. When I think of Snape, I keep thinking of that riddle of the Sphinx's in GoF, which begins: First think of a person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells only lies
or something like that.
Where's the line between the real Snape and the persona he's adopted [I think] for the last 16 or 17 years? Does even he know? I can find explanations for a lot of the things he does and says, even the ambiguous things, but who's the real Snape, and what's he like. No angel, I suspect, but more than that?! It's easy to just dismiss him as a complete cruel jerk, but JKR is rarely that simple.
David Olson - Aug 30, 2003 9:53 am (#25 of 644)
Edited by Aug 30, 2003 10:54 am
I agree with Liam. Snape has to be cruel to Harry to maintain his cover as a spy. If he were ever nice to him in potions, Malfoy would have squealed to his daddy instantly.
I think Snape is one of the two best candidates for a dramatic death in book 6 (DD is the other). In Snape's case, he might sacrifice himself to save Harry from certain death. Then in the end-of-book reveal session with Dumbledore, we'll find out Snape's true emotions. Maybe he'll leave a memory in the pensieve for Harry. That could be wrenching.
Edit: fidelio, excellent quote.
Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 1:33 pm (#26 of 644)
I want to touch back on the scene that Gina mentioned- in Umbridge's office, when Harry basically blows Snape's cover by screaming about Sirius. Can you imagine the control it took for Snape not to throttle Harry? I would of and I love Harry loads more than Snape does. I too thought it interesting that he saved Neville from getting strangled.. he mentions it at least twice, doesn't he? Why would he care? Besides the obvious reasons.
fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 2:05 pm (#27 of 644)
I have to say Snape's save on Harry's desperate outcry about Snuffles was pretty good though ("Potter, if I wished to hear nonsense from you--"), as was his caution about Neville's throttling. I wonder if he took the time to rescue the Slytherins from all those hexes before he went looking for Harry & Co. in the woods?
Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 5:11 pm (#28 of 644)
Edited Aug 30, 2003 6:13 pm
Ok. I have a question to pose, and I didn't want to start a whole thread for it. So, I'm posting it here. Where is Snape's dark mark? I've culled the following quotes. But, nowhere could I find where JKR says if it is on the top or underside of his arm.
GoF: The Egg and the Eye, pp. 410 (British Edition)
?Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him.?
GoF: The Parting of the Ways, pp. 617 (British Edition)
?Snape strode forwards, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm, and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.
?There,? said Snape harshly. ?There. The Dark Mark...
...[Fudge] stared, apparently repelled, at the ugly mark on Snape?s arm...?
Then in OoP: Occlumency, pp. 470 (British Edition)
?[Snape] rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin.?
So, what do people think? For the record, I think it is the top side of his forearm. It makes the most sense. She doesn't reference Snape turning his arm over to show Fudge, for example. And, it seems a much more natural gesture to rub the top side of one's arm unconsciously than the bottom. And I always think of the forearm as the top side (hair side) anyway. Well, those are my thoughts. Anyone else?
(btw, this was prompted by a conversation I had with an artist who drew the dark mark on the underside of his arm at the prompting of some other people).
Sassi Fras - Aug 30, 2003 5:20 pm (#29 of 644)
I've always imagined it on the inside (non-hairy side) though I'm not sure why. I've not seen any drawings suggesting this. I guess I just thought it would be easier to hide here. I don't think Voldy would want to advertise his active by making the mark too obvious.
mischa fan - Aug 30, 2003 6:04 pm (#30 of 644)
Ah, Gina, if you don't know where Snape's dark mark is how should we know?
I have always thought it was on the underside of his forearm, just seemed more natural there for some reason.
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 30, 2003 7:07 pm (#31 of 644)
Me too, thought it was on the underside, that is. Could be just a personal preference, though . I know from experience that it's much easier to hide tattoo's on the underside of your arm, than on the top... everyone has to roll up their sleaves sometime, and it would have been very easy to see on the top. Marks on the top also tend to distort more than those on the bottom. That's all assuming that the mark was made using the conventional Muggle tattooing method (I have my theories about how the dark mark was administered, but I've got to work out a couple holes in it before I mention in) Also, the tops of the arm tend to get damaged (in battle even?) more than the bottoms, I would think Voldemort would want to protect his investment.
As for Snape's nasty behavior to the student's at large - I know a lot of people who were treated poorly when they were younger, who decide that it's their turn to treat others the same once their in a position of power (whether it be parent, teacher, or whatever) ... some would say because they don't know any different.
One other thing I wanted to throw out at everyone. I ran across a random fellow and we began talking Potter... his belief is that Snape and Harry are actually going to grow closer in the 6th book, as (aside from Lupin, who is pretty low key) Harry's lost a lot of his link to parents and the past involving Voldemort - and Snape was involved in so much in it. Wish I could reproduce exactly what that fellow said, because it actually made some sense, but I was wondering what the general opinion of that theory is... thought I'd post it here to get your comments... ?
Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:15 pm (#32 of 644)
I always thought his mark was on the outside of his left arm, which is why we will not see Severus in any muscle shirts (sorry Gina). Actually, come to think of it, I guess it makes sense to be on the inside of his arm.
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 9:33 pm (#33 of 644)
There's a hundred different reasons why Dumbledore could be trusting Snape than he's 'a good guy deep down.'
He could have information on him that would lead to his demise if Snape betrayed him, Snape could have sworn the wizarding equivalent of a blood-oath to Dumbledore...
Or perhaps (getting back to the old 'glint of triumph' discussion), Dumbledore and Snape could be evil and are just waiting for their moment to do something horrific. ^_^
Gina R Snape - Aug 31, 2003 6:30 am (#34 of 644)
Haggis and Irn Bru, I touch upon this on in the Theories "folder." I think I named the thread "My Theory about Snape and the Prophecy" If you read that, let me know what you think.
Elatia, I would love for Snape and Harry to become closer in book 6. I was hoping that would happen in book 5. As it were, I was ready to slap Harry for choosing to blame Snape for Sirius' death. I think Snape and Harry are very much alike. And I think Snape holds a lot he could teach Harry as well as a lot of information about Harry's father and the past. But it will take A LOT to bring these to together.
The one thing I wonder is, if DD dies, will Harry become the OoP leader? If so, will Snape follow his lead? That could be interesting. I'm not sure what Snape would do in a situation like that.
fidelio - Aug 31, 2003 9:09 am (#35 of 644)
I've seen tattos on both the top and underside of the forearm--if you have a hairy arm, they're clearer on the underside. Also, how large is the Dark Mark? I remember reading a thriller several years ago [the name of the book is gone, but I remember a single cool detail--go figure!] where the members of a secret socirty were identifiable by a small tattoo on the arm the was just about where a watch would be--easy to conceal or reveal as needed.
However, on most people, the underside of the forearm is flatter, and would be a better, um, canvas for an image. It is also easier to shield next to your body, in case of possible injury or discovery.
popkin - Aug 31, 2003 9:13 pm (#36 of 644)
Sometimes it seems to me that Snape (and Draco) have very legitimate complaints about Harry's behavior and all the rule breaking he gets away with. He is out after hours when all the teachers are trying to protect him from Sirius (PoA) and other dangers (in all the books). He does fly the Anglia to school, and he is seen by no less than 12 muggles. He endangers his friends, his school, and his world by his actions, and he gets by with it.
I don't think Snape has Harry's best interests at heart - other than trying to keep him alive. If he did, he wouldn't be so keen to have Harry expelled. But, Snape does have a point. Harry sometimes needs to experience immediate consequences for his actions before they become so destructive (as skipping occlumency practice/lessons and leaving himself open to aiding in the destruction of the Order).
Given Harry's history and his remarkable physical resemblance to James, is it any wonder that Snape would come to despise him?
Snape should also suffer consequences for allowing Harry to quit occlumency lessons and putting the Order in danger.
popkin - Aug 31, 2003 9:23 pm (#37 of 644)
About JKR's comment that we shouldn't feel too sorry for old Snivellus, I've been wondering why Sirius tried to kill him. What did Snape do to make Sirius feel justified? Even though James and Sirius were cruel to Snape, I don't think they would have considered putting him in mortal danger without extreme provocation. Think of the consequences for Lupin. What would have happened to him if he had actually killed a student?
Anyway, I think we'll be finding out what Snivelly did, and we'll all feel a lot less sorry for him.
Lisaren - Sep 3, 2003 8:26 am (#38 of 644)
I believe Snape is a childish excuse for a teacher. He is uable to let the past go. His hatred of Harry is the same as hating a child born out of wedlock and is just as misplaced. I do not believe he is acting to keep his cover, he is just a big bully. Perhaps his past was horrible, but that is not excuse for present behavior. As far as Harry being the one in the wrong during the occlumency lessons, Snape made no effort to instruct Harry on proper technique or give him time to warm up, even in the beginning. Snape has fostered and encouraged the dislike of Harry and I see no indication he wishes for a closer relationship. If a relationship were to develop it would be for the "responsible adult" (which I do not believe Snape to be) to make the advances toward the child (at 15/16 Harry is still a child). He also owes Hermione an apology for the comment about her teeth which was totally inexcusable.
fidelio - Sep 3, 2003 9:53 am (#39 of 644)
All right, it's been a while since I threw out a new weird Snape theory, so it's about time.
Harry asks DD what Snape had done that caused DD to feel that he could trust him, and DD told him that this was between Snape and himself. So why does DD trust a bad-tempered possibly ex-DE like Snape. Yes, he's big on letting people making choices--and even on deciding that they didn't like their first choice and want another one. But he's trusted Snape with some pretty dangerous things--including the safety of Harry--the only way of defeating Voldy anyone knows of. Now he's trusting Snape to spy for the OP--possibly even by pretending to still be a faithful DE. Now, we have both DD and Remus Lupin's testimony that Snape is an outstanding Occlumens, and this may help hide what he's up to from Voldy. Snape told Harry that Legilimancy works by the Legilimens searching around, and interpreting what he sees by means of whatever emotional clues he can pick up. So while Snape may be able to keep Voldy out to some extent, possibly he's also blocking his emotions as much as his memories themselves. But there are some memories that would still be hard to explain--like any memories of spying for DD. Has Snape taken these out and stashed them in a jar in his desk drawer? (Which would be pretty inconvenient--he wouldn't be able to remember what he was supposed to do!)Or did he have DD to perform a Fidelius charm on him, covering all things concerning his intelligence work for DD and the OP? And all private orders and information DD's given him about Harry? He might not even be able to tell he was bound by the Fidelius charm unless DD allowed it. We saw a little bit about how the Fidelius charm worked at 12GP--Moody had to show Harry the note DD wrote, and the others couldn't say anything about it--the closest they could come was Lupin telling Harry to think carefully about what the note had said. Could the power of a Fidelius charm extend even to Snape's thoughts and memories? Would this help to explain why Snape seems to closed-in--not only is he naturally cautious, but because of the Fidelius charm--there's more that he simply can't express without DD's permission. It seems like an extreme step to take--but somehow I can see Snape offering to do it, on the grounds that only a drastic step such as this could make him trustworthy, whatever DD said to assure him otherwise. I somehow can't see DD asking him to do this--but I can see Snape (who tends to emotional extremes, whatever he tells Harry about not wearing his heart on his sleeve) suggesting it on his own.
There are bound to be catches with this--please set me straight and tell me why this wouldn't work, or is out of character, or whatever else is wrong with it.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 3, 2003 11:00 am (#40 of 644)
Fidelus charm="concecealment of a secret inside a single, living soul". I would imagine that hundreds of these would be required for lots of secrets. I can more relalistically see Snape dumping a large amount of controversial stuff in the Pensive and repressing a lot less controversial stuff. I know that you can wipe somebodies mind but I wonder if there is a spell that you could use that was not permanant.
Dr Filibuster - Sep 3, 2003 1:22 pm (#41 of 644)
Irn Bru, the secret concealed could be that Snape is working against Voldemort. One secret, not hundreds.
I like ths idea an awful lot Fidelio. I got into the trap of thinking the Fidelius charm was to keep a PLACE secret.
UrbanKat - Sep 4, 2003 7:07 am (#42 of 644)
Well another anagram for Severus Snape is persues evans; instead of Perseus. I think he was in love with Lily, especially since love seems to be a big theme in the books and JKR said something that Snape would fall in love or did at one point. It makes sense to me that only love could turn a deatheater to the good side.
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 8:35 am (#43 of 644)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 5, 2003 3:21 am
I have changed a description being that I felt the word used was inappropriate for this Forum. - Kip
That makes a lot of sense. Volde targeting the Potters may be what finally brought him over (although, if he was capable of such feelings, he would have been uncomfortable among the DE anyway). Plus, it would help explain his disdain for Harry. Harry isn't just the image of his father, but a living symbol that Lily loved his rival/enemy! Not a mature attitude certainly, but understandable. At the same time, I'll bet that there is a level of love-hate going on as well. Snape may still see Lily in Harry, and I suspect that while Snape may be a detestable person to Harry, when the chips are down I believe he'd fight to defend Harry, and perhaps even die for him. Would make an interesting scene, no? Snape dies sacrificing himself to save Harry, and Harry is forcibly confronted with the idea that one of his nemesises/detractors cared for him and gave up his life for him. Wouldn't that make a tear-jerking scene of forgiveness and missed opportunity loss? I don't know how likely this is, but it would make a fantastic scene!
Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 12:12 pm (#44 of 644)
>I think he was in love with Lily, especially since love seems to be a big theme in the books and JKR said something that Snape would fall in love or did at one point.<<
When and where did she say this, if you don't mind me asking. I'd like to read the interview.
timrew - Sep 4, 2003 1:51 pm (#45 of 644)
Ah, love! It makes the world go round, it's a many-spleandoured thing, it's all you need!
I can just see Snape tip-toeing through the tulips pursuing Lily!
Somewhere, someone said that Severus Snape, as well as being an anagram of Perseus Evans, was also an anagram of Persues Evans. This to suggest that Lily was followed everywhere by Snape.
I don't know about the USA, but here in the UK, 'pursues' is spelt differently. JKR would have spelt it this way too. So I think we can forget that anagram.
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 2:38 pm (#46 of 644)
You're right Tim. To follow, even here in backwards USA, is pursues.
timrew - Sep 4, 2003 2:42 pm (#47 of 644)
Thanks for putting me straight, Professor Kosh. I know you spell certain words differently in the USA, color-colour, aluminum-aluminium, tomato-tomato (oh, no! That's just pronounced differently).
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 3:26 pm (#48 of 644)
Yeah, I often wish they didn't change things between the British and American versions. Here in the USA, there is an almost magical feel to the British Isles themselves. Of course, that's probably because we have so little history comparitively (As Eddie Izzard says, we tear our history down!)
Anyhoo, back to the subject...
Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 4:38 pm (#49 of 644)
UrbanKat, if you want to read more on the subject of Lily/Snape, check out the thread, "Lily Evans and Severus Snape: Does it Hold Water?" down below. It's really interesting....
Prefect Marcus - Sep 4, 2003 4:42 pm (#50 of 644)
check out the thread, "Lily Evans and Severus Snape: Does it Hold Water?" down below...
You're right Hem Hem. I've often thought that theory was all wet.
:-)
Marcus
Edited Aug 29, 2003 1:35 pm
I think that Snape is neither 100% bad or good. He is somewhere between the two.
1)In the recent Albert Hall interview JKR said something along the lines that although Snape was on the good side we should not like him to much. I was wondering whether this comment had anything to do with the Occulmency lessons and the way he was treated during his time with Snape? Snape seemed to automatically go searching for the worst memories that Harry had? It might have been easier for Harry to learn to block something that was not quite as distressing. He is constantly horrible to him in potions. How childish was that breaking Harrys vial of potion.
2)I wonder what exactly Snape did so that Dumbly trusted him? It must have been something big if he had previously been a Death Eater. He is working as a spy for the order which is another good point but how is he doing it? Has he gone back to the DE and if so might his evil tendancys come to the fore?
3)He has also helped protect Harry to some extent in earlier adventures.
Moony's Heir - Aug 29, 2003 12:39 pm (#2 of 644)
Severus Snape or PerseusEvans?
We were discussing this last in the temp. forum and I guess we can continue with it? If Severus is Perseus, what(if there is any) is his relation to Lily?Her step-brother? Her cousin? Shoot away ,folks...
A-is-for-Amy - Aug 29, 2003 12:39 pm (#3 of 644)
I felt that when JKR made that comment, that she meant that Snape had done something horrible in his past that we haven't found out about yet. Even though he is horrible to Harry and other students, I have trouble seeing him betray them all.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 12:42 pm (#4 of 644)
I wonder what exactly he did as a death eater? Even being in that group suggests an extreeme level of nastiness.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 12:47 pm (#5 of 644)
Moony's Heir- the Snape as Perseus theory was actually talked about in great lengths already on this forum.. try the search feature or browse the thread entitled "Snape and Lily Evans.. does it hold water?" It might interest you!
I also took JKR's statement to mean that Snape might do something we won't like OR he has done something terrible that we don't know about yet. And I REALLY want to know why Dumbledore trusts him implicitly.
mollis - Aug 29, 2003 12:47 pm (#6 of 644)
I really like the idea that Snape was in love with Lilly during school when James was being mean to him. He probably fell in love with her because she was defending him. And I think it was his love for Lilly that made him betray Voldemort and warn Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters and intended to kill Harry. I think that is why Snape became a double-agent.
Viola Intonada - Aug 29, 2003 12:55 pm (#7 of 644)
I have two thoughts on why DD trusts Snape:
1) DD saved Snape once, so Snape is bound to DD through that type of magic or..
2) Snape is actually a tranfigured rogue House Elf and belongs to the Dumbledore family
I can't think of many other reasons why DD would trust him. Snape's actions and attitude toward Harry is out of line a lot of the time.
Moony's Heir - Aug 29, 2003 1:12 pm (#8 of 644)
Sorry,Sly girl...anyway, I strongly believe that Dumbledore trusts Snape because Snape still has a role play(sorta like why Gandalf trusted Gollum in LoTR). Though there may not be any prophecy about Snape, he may be in search of a goal that is far more important to him than being a DE or hating the Potters. And ,I do believe that Snape will be the successor of Dumbledore: as the headmaster.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 1:18 pm (#9 of 644)
Tis okay, Moony. I just thought you might be interested in reading what we had wrote about that topic, way back when.
Interesting, you don't think McGonagall would be successor, since she is 'deputy Headmistress' now? I honestly can't see Snape being in charge of the whole school, he just wouldn't have the patience for it, I think.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 1:23 pm (#10 of 644)
He would probably be a Phineus Nigellus clone.
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 3:11 pm (#11 of 644)
The patience, nor the tolerance. I would think as headmaster you'd have to at least be fair!
My take on why DD trusts Snape, though I'm also dying to know the real reason, is that he performed some kind of selfless act of kindness to a potential victim(s) of Old Morty's. Such as being ordered to kill or participate in the torture of someone he had no obvious ties to, and either stopping it or telling DD about it before it happened. Not very original, but certainly plausible knowing Dumbledore. Whatever it was, I'm convinced that it had to be a genuine act of repentance, showing that he truly saw the error of the DE's ways.
Hem Hem - Aug 29, 2003 3:22 pm (#12 of 644)
Viola Intonada, your idea that Snape is in life-debt to DD is really interesting.
Makes me wonder: If Dumbledore saved Snape's life, and James saved Snape's life, that's enough to make Snape feel rather delicate and succeptible. Perhaps that could be yet another source of his bitterness.
Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2003 3:42 pm (#13 of 644)
Edited Aug 29, 2003 4:43 pm
People are wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much. I think it's simply because he's a Ligilimens (sp?). Snape must have decided he didn't want to be on the Dark Side anymore, came back and said so to Dumbledore. Dumbledore would know he was telling the truth because he can read his mind. He knew Sirius was telling the truth when he heard his side of things in PoA. Remember, he came into the hospital wing already believing what had happened without even hearing it from Harry, Ron and Hermione? He didn't even need to check.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 4:59 pm (#14 of 644)
Are you talking about Dumbledore knowing the truth in PoA or Snape? Because Snape was definitely not believing a thing in PoA- which makes me wonder- why didn't he use his 'gift' with Occulmency then? Why didn't he just look at Sirius or Lupin and read into their thoughts?
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 5:33 pm (#15 of 644)
On the point of Dumbledore using Legilimency to figure out what's going on with Snape... DD says he's a powerful enough legilimens to know when he's being lied to (and knowing his modesty, he's surely much stronger), but he wasn't legilimens enough to know that Moody was really Crouch Jr., so I believe there must be a limit.??
On the point of why Snape didn't just reach into someone's head to figure out what the truth was, I don't believe he was at the point of listening to reason. He was a bit over the edge with his mania there. Personally I think he wanted very much to believe that Sirius was a DE and a murderer, and even more than that he wanted to get the credit for catching him. (--Even if he didn't believe Sirius murdered Peter and the Muggles, I don't think it unreasonable to believe that Snape would have been more than satisfied to have Sirius back in Azkaban for no better reason than because 'he existed')
Pinky - Aug 29, 2003 7:14 pm (#16 of 644)
Yes, I believe Snape was over the edge in PoA. There are people that will refuse to believe the truth, even if it is staring them in the face. *cough - Umbridge/Fudge- cough* Snape could have told himself that he already knew the truth, so he didn't need to look into anyone's mind. Remember, though, he doesn't exactly read their minds. "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader." (Ootp, p. 530, American edition) Also, in order to do Occlumency/Legilimency well, one needs to be emptied of emotion. Snape was hardly in any shape to do that.
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 10:24 pm (#17 of 644)
Ah, merci beaucoup, mon amie.
Thanks for hitting me with that fine Snapeism. You're right he was highly upset during that time period. Fancy him getting after Harry for being the same way? Slytherin Prefect - Aug 29, 2003 11:03 pm (#18 of 644)
I don't think it's a question of good or evil with Snape. He's wholly and completely an evil, sadistic man with only one redeeming quality: for whatever reason, he is completely loyal to Dumbledore.
He does absolutely dispicable things. Things ranging from threatening to poision Neville's toad to his undying (though IMHO justified) quest to get Harry Potter thrown out of Hogwarts.
And I still say he's a terrible head of house. If he does care one iota about the students under his guidance, he doesn't seem to care enough to fix the out of control nature of the Slytherin house. Nay, he encourages their foul behavior by playing favorites and protecting his own house from justice.
At least McGonnigal tries to keep order with the bunch of rule-breaking ragamuffins she gets charged with. She's not afraid to clean her own house. There's no doubt that McGonnigal's heart is in the right place.
Snape, however, is not bullying Neville to 'try to help him become a better wizard.' He isn't doing Draco any favors by letting him be a little prat and get away with it any time the greasy-haired ruleshield is around.
Despite the fact that he seems to be the greatest potions master around, he still can't keep his professionalism intact. The one and only time he's given free reign over DADA classes, he uses them to bully Hermoine and cause harm to Professor Lupin.
There is nothing good about Snape. He doesn't care one iota for anyone other than himself, and for some reason Dumbledore. Take Dumbledore out of the equation, and I assure you that while he may not turn Death Eater, you'll see just how evil he can be.
timrew - Aug 30, 2003 12:24 am (#19 of 644)
I posted this on the other forum, but hope to re-introduce the discussion here. It has been said what a great proponent of Occlumency Snape is, so that he can even fool Voldemort into believing he is a bona fide Death Eater.
Well, if he can do it with Voldemort, why not with Dumbledore? Could he have been a double-agent all along, having fooled Dumbledore into thinking that he has 'returned to the fold'?
After all, JKR has told us not to get too fond of Snape. What do you think?
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 2:59 am (#20 of 644)
However, don't forget the most important rule of the HP Universe:
"Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard in the world."
Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 6:07 am (#21 of 644)
: sigh : I am too tired and ill this morning to trumpet my fighting words full throttle, SP. But I could not reenter the fray without defending my Severus.
Yes, he can be a petty man at times. But I do think, aside from living out his little revenge fantasies and amusing himself, that he is genuinely softening up Draco et al so they will not be capable of going the full fight when the time comes. He's playing a role, which means there are certain things he has no choice about doing. Favouring Draco is one of them.
I also think he is genuinely interested in the safety of Harry and the other kids. Yes, he threatens them with poison and such. But he doesn't actually do it. I thought for sure that his hand was shown in OoP when he gave the fake veritaserum and when he told Crabbe (or Goyle?) to loosen up on Neville. But I see there's no amount of convincing some people...
Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 8:21 am (#22 of 644)
I don't agree that Snape is evil. Petty, bitter, bullying? Certainly. However, DD trusts him, and that ALONE precludes his evil. His attitude toward Potter is due to old bitterness towards his father and ?possible? unknown feelings toward his mother (if he was in love with Lily, it would hurt him a great deal for her to marry his former tormentor James, and Harry, who looks like his father, is a living memory that she loved someone else). I think his bullying in class is more that he is one who 'doesn't tolerate fools lightly'. While he is a bit meaner about it, McGonagall is much the same way.
As for Draco, remember who he is. Snape is, to Lucias Malfoy, a fellow Deatheater. (Although he was pardoned by the MoM, no one ever says publically why, so most, including other Deatheaters, probably don't know why). I'm quite sure that DD was watching over Potter carefully in his first year, as this was the first 'public' appearance since Voldemort was defeated. I'll bet that several former Deatheaters would have loved to kill him, and so DD watched over him and I'm willing to bet DD encouraged Snape to 'cultivate' a closeness w/ Draco to keep him 'undercover'. Thus Snape has to tolerate Draco's foolishness and pretend to favor him (I suspect that Snape loathes the little self-important twit). This is also a part of the reason for Snape's public treatment of Potter (he'd raise suspicions real soon if he didn't treat him that way, i'll wager!)
As for Snape's behavior in PoA, he was overwhelmed by his emotions. (Remember, OoP gives us an insight on just how Snape was treated by Potter and Black, and very nearly lost his life to Lupin because of Black).
If Snape were truly evil, a true Deatheater still (as some have speculated), Harry Potter would be dead already. Don't forget the Quiddich match when Snape saved Potter from Quirrel's curse! Snape is just an A@%*#-hole, but a trustworthy one. I for one hope to see him redeemed a little more, and perhaps a grudging respect grow between him and Harry, as Harry grows up and becomes more mature in his responses to Snape's provacation.
Lady Margot - Aug 30, 2003 9:31 am (#23 of 644)
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 31, 2003 5:57 am
I have to think that Snape in PoA was reacting more to Sirius as the author of his pain from when he was in school more than as the escaped and dangerous prisoner that everyone thought he was. Everyone has a blind spot - Harry and the Marauders would be Snape's. As for the way he treats his students: if we assume he was a spy for Dumbledore during the first rise of Voldie then we must assume he took on a more exagerated version of his own personality to keep people at bay - makes it easier to be believed as a Death Eater if people don't see you being nice to kids. Unfortunately that type of personna is hard to lose - especially if you've lived it for a while. It was probably easier on him to keep up the walls after Voldie was "gone" - especially if neither he nor Dumbledore could really say that Voldie was gone for good. Now he's back at playing the spy game and the personna has become even more entrenched. The fact that he hates the sight of Potter because of who he reminds him of can only be to the good when playing a returning Death Eater. It wouldn't do for your boss to think you are actually keeping that rule-braking, ungrateful kid alive because you like him (which I'm sure he doesn't). Is he a detestable person? Yep - but he didn't force kids to carve lines into their hands during detention like a certain replacement head mistress sent by the MoM did he? He might be unfair - but has he actually caused physical pain like that witch did? He's kept that kid alive despite himself and gotten no acknowledgment for it. I'd be pretty annoyed too if I risked my hide to help the kid get around a questioning by the Wicked Witch of the West and then got blamed for something I had no control over. Margot (who probably didn't make a lot of sense with this reply).
I have edited a part of this post by removing words and replacing those two with three words which I felt were more appropriate for this Forum. -Kip
fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 9:40 am (#24 of 644)
Edited Aug 30, 2003 10:41 am
No, Margot, you made sense, at least to me, and probably to a lot of others. When I think of Snape, I keep thinking of that riddle of the Sphinx's in GoF, which begins: First think of a person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells only lies
or something like that.
Where's the line between the real Snape and the persona he's adopted [I think] for the last 16 or 17 years? Does even he know? I can find explanations for a lot of the things he does and says, even the ambiguous things, but who's the real Snape, and what's he like. No angel, I suspect, but more than that?! It's easy to just dismiss him as a complete cruel jerk, but JKR is rarely that simple.
David Olson - Aug 30, 2003 9:53 am (#25 of 644)
Edited by Aug 30, 2003 10:54 am
I agree with Liam. Snape has to be cruel to Harry to maintain his cover as a spy. If he were ever nice to him in potions, Malfoy would have squealed to his daddy instantly.
I think Snape is one of the two best candidates for a dramatic death in book 6 (DD is the other). In Snape's case, he might sacrifice himself to save Harry from certain death. Then in the end-of-book reveal session with Dumbledore, we'll find out Snape's true emotions. Maybe he'll leave a memory in the pensieve for Harry. That could be wrenching.
Edit: fidelio, excellent quote.
Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 1:33 pm (#26 of 644)
I want to touch back on the scene that Gina mentioned- in Umbridge's office, when Harry basically blows Snape's cover by screaming about Sirius. Can you imagine the control it took for Snape not to throttle Harry? I would of and I love Harry loads more than Snape does. I too thought it interesting that he saved Neville from getting strangled.. he mentions it at least twice, doesn't he? Why would he care? Besides the obvious reasons.
fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 2:05 pm (#27 of 644)
I have to say Snape's save on Harry's desperate outcry about Snuffles was pretty good though ("Potter, if I wished to hear nonsense from you--"), as was his caution about Neville's throttling. I wonder if he took the time to rescue the Slytherins from all those hexes before he went looking for Harry & Co. in the woods?
Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 5:11 pm (#28 of 644)
Edited Aug 30, 2003 6:13 pm
Ok. I have a question to pose, and I didn't want to start a whole thread for it. So, I'm posting it here. Where is Snape's dark mark? I've culled the following quotes. But, nowhere could I find where JKR says if it is on the top or underside of his arm.
GoF: The Egg and the Eye, pp. 410 (British Edition)
?Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him.?
GoF: The Parting of the Ways, pp. 617 (British Edition)
?Snape strode forwards, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm, and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.
?There,? said Snape harshly. ?There. The Dark Mark...
...[Fudge] stared, apparently repelled, at the ugly mark on Snape?s arm...?
Then in OoP: Occlumency, pp. 470 (British Edition)
?[Snape] rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin.?
So, what do people think? For the record, I think it is the top side of his forearm. It makes the most sense. She doesn't reference Snape turning his arm over to show Fudge, for example. And, it seems a much more natural gesture to rub the top side of one's arm unconsciously than the bottom. And I always think of the forearm as the top side (hair side) anyway. Well, those are my thoughts. Anyone else?
(btw, this was prompted by a conversation I had with an artist who drew the dark mark on the underside of his arm at the prompting of some other people).
Sassi Fras - Aug 30, 2003 5:20 pm (#29 of 644)
I've always imagined it on the inside (non-hairy side) though I'm not sure why. I've not seen any drawings suggesting this. I guess I just thought it would be easier to hide here. I don't think Voldy would want to advertise his active by making the mark too obvious.
mischa fan - Aug 30, 2003 6:04 pm (#30 of 644)
Ah, Gina, if you don't know where Snape's dark mark is how should we know?
I have always thought it was on the underside of his forearm, just seemed more natural there for some reason.
Elatia Fishbane - Aug 30, 2003 7:07 pm (#31 of 644)
Me too, thought it was on the underside, that is. Could be just a personal preference, though . I know from experience that it's much easier to hide tattoo's on the underside of your arm, than on the top... everyone has to roll up their sleaves sometime, and it would have been very easy to see on the top. Marks on the top also tend to distort more than those on the bottom. That's all assuming that the mark was made using the conventional Muggle tattooing method (I have my theories about how the dark mark was administered, but I've got to work out a couple holes in it before I mention in) Also, the tops of the arm tend to get damaged (in battle even?) more than the bottoms, I would think Voldemort would want to protect his investment.
As for Snape's nasty behavior to the student's at large - I know a lot of people who were treated poorly when they were younger, who decide that it's their turn to treat others the same once their in a position of power (whether it be parent, teacher, or whatever) ... some would say because they don't know any different.
One other thing I wanted to throw out at everyone. I ran across a random fellow and we began talking Potter... his belief is that Snape and Harry are actually going to grow closer in the 6th book, as (aside from Lupin, who is pretty low key) Harry's lost a lot of his link to parents and the past involving Voldemort - and Snape was involved in so much in it. Wish I could reproduce exactly what that fellow said, because it actually made some sense, but I was wondering what the general opinion of that theory is... thought I'd post it here to get your comments... ?
Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:15 pm (#32 of 644)
I always thought his mark was on the outside of his left arm, which is why we will not see Severus in any muscle shirts (sorry Gina). Actually, come to think of it, I guess it makes sense to be on the inside of his arm.
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 9:33 pm (#33 of 644)
There's a hundred different reasons why Dumbledore could be trusting Snape than he's 'a good guy deep down.'
He could have information on him that would lead to his demise if Snape betrayed him, Snape could have sworn the wizarding equivalent of a blood-oath to Dumbledore...
Or perhaps (getting back to the old 'glint of triumph' discussion), Dumbledore and Snape could be evil and are just waiting for their moment to do something horrific. ^_^
Gina R Snape - Aug 31, 2003 6:30 am (#34 of 644)
Haggis and Irn Bru, I touch upon this on in the Theories "folder." I think I named the thread "My Theory about Snape and the Prophecy" If you read that, let me know what you think.
Elatia, I would love for Snape and Harry to become closer in book 6. I was hoping that would happen in book 5. As it were, I was ready to slap Harry for choosing to blame Snape for Sirius' death. I think Snape and Harry are very much alike. And I think Snape holds a lot he could teach Harry as well as a lot of information about Harry's father and the past. But it will take A LOT to bring these to together.
The one thing I wonder is, if DD dies, will Harry become the OoP leader? If so, will Snape follow his lead? That could be interesting. I'm not sure what Snape would do in a situation like that.
fidelio - Aug 31, 2003 9:09 am (#35 of 644)
I've seen tattos on both the top and underside of the forearm--if you have a hairy arm, they're clearer on the underside. Also, how large is the Dark Mark? I remember reading a thriller several years ago [the name of the book is gone, but I remember a single cool detail--go figure!] where the members of a secret socirty were identifiable by a small tattoo on the arm the was just about where a watch would be--easy to conceal or reveal as needed.
However, on most people, the underside of the forearm is flatter, and would be a better, um, canvas for an image. It is also easier to shield next to your body, in case of possible injury or discovery.
popkin - Aug 31, 2003 9:13 pm (#36 of 644)
Sometimes it seems to me that Snape (and Draco) have very legitimate complaints about Harry's behavior and all the rule breaking he gets away with. He is out after hours when all the teachers are trying to protect him from Sirius (PoA) and other dangers (in all the books). He does fly the Anglia to school, and he is seen by no less than 12 muggles. He endangers his friends, his school, and his world by his actions, and he gets by with it.
I don't think Snape has Harry's best interests at heart - other than trying to keep him alive. If he did, he wouldn't be so keen to have Harry expelled. But, Snape does have a point. Harry sometimes needs to experience immediate consequences for his actions before they become so destructive (as skipping occlumency practice/lessons and leaving himself open to aiding in the destruction of the Order).
Given Harry's history and his remarkable physical resemblance to James, is it any wonder that Snape would come to despise him?
Snape should also suffer consequences for allowing Harry to quit occlumency lessons and putting the Order in danger.
popkin - Aug 31, 2003 9:23 pm (#37 of 644)
About JKR's comment that we shouldn't feel too sorry for old Snivellus, I've been wondering why Sirius tried to kill him. What did Snape do to make Sirius feel justified? Even though James and Sirius were cruel to Snape, I don't think they would have considered putting him in mortal danger without extreme provocation. Think of the consequences for Lupin. What would have happened to him if he had actually killed a student?
Anyway, I think we'll be finding out what Snivelly did, and we'll all feel a lot less sorry for him.
Lisaren - Sep 3, 2003 8:26 am (#38 of 644)
I believe Snape is a childish excuse for a teacher. He is uable to let the past go. His hatred of Harry is the same as hating a child born out of wedlock and is just as misplaced. I do not believe he is acting to keep his cover, he is just a big bully. Perhaps his past was horrible, but that is not excuse for present behavior. As far as Harry being the one in the wrong during the occlumency lessons, Snape made no effort to instruct Harry on proper technique or give him time to warm up, even in the beginning. Snape has fostered and encouraged the dislike of Harry and I see no indication he wishes for a closer relationship. If a relationship were to develop it would be for the "responsible adult" (which I do not believe Snape to be) to make the advances toward the child (at 15/16 Harry is still a child). He also owes Hermione an apology for the comment about her teeth which was totally inexcusable.
fidelio - Sep 3, 2003 9:53 am (#39 of 644)
All right, it's been a while since I threw out a new weird Snape theory, so it's about time.
Harry asks DD what Snape had done that caused DD to feel that he could trust him, and DD told him that this was between Snape and himself. So why does DD trust a bad-tempered possibly ex-DE like Snape. Yes, he's big on letting people making choices--and even on deciding that they didn't like their first choice and want another one. But he's trusted Snape with some pretty dangerous things--including the safety of Harry--the only way of defeating Voldy anyone knows of. Now he's trusting Snape to spy for the OP--possibly even by pretending to still be a faithful DE. Now, we have both DD and Remus Lupin's testimony that Snape is an outstanding Occlumens, and this may help hide what he's up to from Voldy. Snape told Harry that Legilimancy works by the Legilimens searching around, and interpreting what he sees by means of whatever emotional clues he can pick up. So while Snape may be able to keep Voldy out to some extent, possibly he's also blocking his emotions as much as his memories themselves. But there are some memories that would still be hard to explain--like any memories of spying for DD. Has Snape taken these out and stashed them in a jar in his desk drawer? (Which would be pretty inconvenient--he wouldn't be able to remember what he was supposed to do!)Or did he have DD to perform a Fidelius charm on him, covering all things concerning his intelligence work for DD and the OP? And all private orders and information DD's given him about Harry? He might not even be able to tell he was bound by the Fidelius charm unless DD allowed it. We saw a little bit about how the Fidelius charm worked at 12GP--Moody had to show Harry the note DD wrote, and the others couldn't say anything about it--the closest they could come was Lupin telling Harry to think carefully about what the note had said. Could the power of a Fidelius charm extend even to Snape's thoughts and memories? Would this help to explain why Snape seems to closed-in--not only is he naturally cautious, but because of the Fidelius charm--there's more that he simply can't express without DD's permission. It seems like an extreme step to take--but somehow I can see Snape offering to do it, on the grounds that only a drastic step such as this could make him trustworthy, whatever DD said to assure him otherwise. I somehow can't see DD asking him to do this--but I can see Snape (who tends to emotional extremes, whatever he tells Harry about not wearing his heart on his sleeve) suggesting it on his own.
There are bound to be catches with this--please set me straight and tell me why this wouldn't work, or is out of character, or whatever else is wrong with it.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 3, 2003 11:00 am (#40 of 644)
Fidelus charm="concecealment of a secret inside a single, living soul". I would imagine that hundreds of these would be required for lots of secrets. I can more relalistically see Snape dumping a large amount of controversial stuff in the Pensive and repressing a lot less controversial stuff. I know that you can wipe somebodies mind but I wonder if there is a spell that you could use that was not permanant.
Dr Filibuster - Sep 3, 2003 1:22 pm (#41 of 644)
Irn Bru, the secret concealed could be that Snape is working against Voldemort. One secret, not hundreds.
I like ths idea an awful lot Fidelio. I got into the trap of thinking the Fidelius charm was to keep a PLACE secret.
UrbanKat - Sep 4, 2003 7:07 am (#42 of 644)
Well another anagram for Severus Snape is persues evans; instead of Perseus. I think he was in love with Lily, especially since love seems to be a big theme in the books and JKR said something that Snape would fall in love or did at one point. It makes sense to me that only love could turn a deatheater to the good side.
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 8:35 am (#43 of 644)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 5, 2003 3:21 am
I have changed a description being that I felt the word used was inappropriate for this Forum. - Kip
That makes a lot of sense. Volde targeting the Potters may be what finally brought him over (although, if he was capable of such feelings, he would have been uncomfortable among the DE anyway). Plus, it would help explain his disdain for Harry. Harry isn't just the image of his father, but a living symbol that Lily loved his rival/enemy! Not a mature attitude certainly, but understandable. At the same time, I'll bet that there is a level of love-hate going on as well. Snape may still see Lily in Harry, and I suspect that while Snape may be a detestable person to Harry, when the chips are down I believe he'd fight to defend Harry, and perhaps even die for him. Would make an interesting scene, no? Snape dies sacrificing himself to save Harry, and Harry is forcibly confronted with the idea that one of his nemesises/detractors cared for him and gave up his life for him. Wouldn't that make a tear-jerking scene of forgiveness and missed opportunity loss? I don't know how likely this is, but it would make a fantastic scene!
Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 12:12 pm (#44 of 644)
>I think he was in love with Lily, especially since love seems to be a big theme in the books and JKR said something that Snape would fall in love or did at one point.<<
When and where did she say this, if you don't mind me asking. I'd like to read the interview.
timrew - Sep 4, 2003 1:51 pm (#45 of 644)
Ah, love! It makes the world go round, it's a many-spleandoured thing, it's all you need!
I can just see Snape tip-toeing through the tulips pursuing Lily!
Somewhere, someone said that Severus Snape, as well as being an anagram of Perseus Evans, was also an anagram of Persues Evans. This to suggest that Lily was followed everywhere by Snape.
I don't know about the USA, but here in the UK, 'pursues' is spelt differently. JKR would have spelt it this way too. So I think we can forget that anagram.
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 2:38 pm (#46 of 644)
You're right Tim. To follow, even here in backwards USA, is pursues.
timrew - Sep 4, 2003 2:42 pm (#47 of 644)
Thanks for putting me straight, Professor Kosh. I know you spell certain words differently in the USA, color-colour, aluminum-aluminium, tomato-tomato (oh, no! That's just pronounced differently).
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 3:26 pm (#48 of 644)
Yeah, I often wish they didn't change things between the British and American versions. Here in the USA, there is an almost magical feel to the British Isles themselves. Of course, that's probably because we have so little history comparitively (As Eddie Izzard says, we tear our history down!)
Anyhoo, back to the subject...
Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 4:38 pm (#49 of 644)
UrbanKat, if you want to read more on the subject of Lily/Snape, check out the thread, "Lily Evans and Severus Snape: Does it Hold Water?" down below. It's really interesting....
Prefect Marcus - Sep 4, 2003 4:42 pm (#50 of 644)
check out the thread, "Lily Evans and Severus Snape: Does it Hold Water?" down below...
You're right Hem Hem. I've often thought that theory was all wet.
:-)
Marcus
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popkin - Sep 4, 2003 8:48 pm (#51 of 644)
I've often thought that "persues Evans" made perfect sense. I never noticed the spelling. It just goes to show that we see what we want to see.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 4, 2003 8:49 pm (#52 of 644)
However, just to keep the pot boiling, it does anagram into Peruses Evans!
popkin - Sep 4, 2003 9:04 pm (#53 of 644)
Yes, it does. And it anagrams to "never uses spa". I don't remember who came up with that one. It wasn't me. But I liked it.
Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 9:06 pm (#54 of 644)
Heeeheeeheee, popkin. That ties in with the greying undies so perfectly! Oh, my...
Madam Pince - Sep 5, 2003 9:40 pm (#55 of 644)
Edited Sep 5, 2003 10:48 pm
Never uses spa -- that's great! I love it! But I really do think it's going to be the Perseus Evans thing -- he changed his name when he disowned his abusive father, and it turns out he's either Lily's cousin (Mooney's Heir's theory, I think) or Lily's & Petunia's unknown stepbrother (my own personal favorite.)
For another theory, like Prof. Kosh, I fully believe that Snape is going to die, but not in book 6. I think he's going to be the big death scene in book 7. He's going to take the shot that's meant for Harry, and die saving him and also saving the Order. This will be the ultimate repayment of his life-debt to James. AND it may finally get Harry to see (wrenchingly, too late, of course) that Snape is not really evil and detestable (sorry, Slytherin Prefect!) I've gotta say I agree with Gina -- I spent a good part of OoP being extremely annoyed with Harry! I mean, come on, there at the end at Hogwarts when he was going "Oh dear what'll we do, there's nobody else left here from the Order who can help us!" I wanted to smack him! I was jumping up and down yelling "Snape! Snape! What's the matter with you, boy!" Like Mrs. Figg said at the beginning of the book -- "Good Lord, boy, they told me you were intelligent!" (My favorite quote, BTW, I think it sums up the whole book!)
Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 7:26 am (#56 of 644)
Madame Pince: "But I really do think it's going to be the Perseus Evans thing -- he changed his name when he disowned his abusive father, and it turns out he's either Lily's cousin (Mooney's Heir's theory, I think) or Lily's & Petunia's unknown stepbrother (my own personal favorite.)" (underlines added)
Wait, didn't JKR say somewere that Lily was a muggle-born? If that's the case, I don't see how a pure-blood like Snape would be related to her.
Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 1:00 pm (#57 of 644)
Do we know for certain that Snape is pure-blood? (Although I don't believe Snape is related to Petunia or Lily, just to be straight. heh) But I know he's in Slytherin...but so was Tom Riddle and he was half, like Harry (who also might have ended up there). So do we have an definitive answer to this question or did I miss it? Does Slytherin take half-bloods? (I would say the answer is yes, based on the above)
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 2:35 pm (#58 of 644)
Yeah, Slytherin House has taken a half-bloods (Volde) that we know. However, that half-blood was also the last descendant of Salazar Slytherin himself! Somewhere (here in the Lexicon or on the Ren Hen essays) I read that about 25% of the wizarding population is pureblood. Well, Slytherin House is 25% of Hogwarts, so maybe Volde was a unique case. (As for Harry's near placement there; he recieved some of Volde's essence in the infanthood attack, as he is now a Parselmouth and connected mentally to Volde, and that may be what the Sorting Hat sensed). I don't see how a half-blood could function in Slytherin without being a pariah. Also, I don't think Snape would have used the term 'mud-blood' as a child if he weren't a pureblood. Also, while Volde may have hidden his origins (from Belletrix's reaction, I suspect the only DEs who know are Wormtail and likely Malfoy. I bet Wormtail doesn't care, and Malfoy is manipulative and ambitious enough to ignore it for now), I doubt Snape could do so as easily, so I don't think if he were one he'd be able to be in the DEs quite so easily. I think the anagram of Snape's name is a red herring.
Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 7:08 pm (#59 of 644)
Sly Girl:"Do we know for certain that Snape is pure-blood?"
Well, he called Lily a mudblood, so I would assume he takes pride in the fact that he is not a "mudblood", hence he's a pureblood.
Regarding Slytherins being only purebloods: the house places students in Slytherin based on their resourcefulness and ambition, not on their genetics. At least, that's how I see it.
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 7:46 pm (#60 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 8:46 pm
Perhaps, but then think of all the torment those Slytherins who are half-blood or Muggle-born would go through! There would be fights among the Slytherins daily! No, I don't think ambition and resourcefulness are the only things the Hat considers. Remember that the hat was created to mimic how the Founders would have chosen, and to Salazar, pure-bloodedness was very important. Riddle got in because he was descendant of Salazar, and Harry was considered because of his connection with Voldemort. Given both Salazar's opinions and the Slytherin House's general attitude, I think the Hat must consider genetics.
Cristina Tatiana Zadorojny - Sep 6, 2003 8:52 pm (#61 of 644)
yes, yes, yes!!!! oh, my gosh! i think exactly the same thing!!! i'm CONVINCED that snape is going to die saving harry's life. i KNOW snape is one of the MOST important characters in the books. i've loved snape since the beginning, despite the way he treats harry and his favouritism towards the slytherins. the sole fact that dumbledore trusts him is enough for me, is PROOF that he's no DE. dumbledore's word is gold to me. i'm DYING to find out what's that fact, or what's that thing that snape must have done to convince dumbledore that he's DEFENITELY not on voldemort's side. and if DD's convinced, you know it's true. what he did must have been really big. we have yet to find out what it is, and i'm DYING to know. it's one of the series's biggest mysteries. you know j.k. rowling is letting us know about snape and the mystery of his life little by little, and that it's all going to be a big bang in book 7. the series is NOT going to end w/ snape and harry hating each other. there's so much more to all of this. i'm completely, 100% CONVINCED that snape is going to die saving harry's life. CONVINCED. there's no doubt in my mind. there's going to be a very big bond between snape and harry towards the end, and we have yet to find out what it is. it's going to blow our minds away, i just KNOW it.
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 9:02 pm (#62 of 644)
Whoop! Watch that capitalization and punctuation there Cristina! We are pretty big on proper writing in this forum. I refer you to the Philosophy thread to understand the rules. Netspeak is a big no no here. (Plus, I just can't follow it. I guess I'm too old!)
Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 9:43 pm (#63 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 10:44 pm
Not to pick on anyone or anything, but I'm really getting tired of people 'sacrificing themselves' to save other people... Isn't once per series enough? Maybe twice? They're not *all* going to die to save each other, or else then they'll all be dead and the whole thing pointless! Lily already died to save Harry, do we really need to see that repeated again? Realistically, how likely is it that you're going to get an oppirtunity to take an Avada Kedavra for someone else? Aren't we getting a little carried away with the drama? I don't think Harry would really appreciate people dying to save his life as much as one might think...
Okay, I'm done being grumpy now. Goodnight.
Madam Pince - Sep 6, 2003 10:31 pm (#64 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 11:36 pm
Well, I understand where you're coming from Olivia, but think of it this way -- the current situation in OoP is in fact a war. A war of good vs. evil. And in wars, there are usually lots and lots of sacrifices, unfortunately. Ask any veteran. People are always dying in war to save others, or to save causes, or whatever. So the fact that the last chapter of OoP is entitled "The Second War Begins" is a pretty big clue, I think, that more folks are going to die. Sacrifice and death during war isn't melodrama, it's just fact.
But anyway, back to my earlier post -- Denise, I agree that Lily is muggle-born and that Snape is pure-blood, although I think Sly Girl is right that it isn't exactly specified in canon that he's pureblood - it's just a pretty good assumption. I was just being wary of posting my huge long theory which explains how they could be related/same last names without being blood relatives. I posted it on the EZBoard annex forum just a week or so ago, and I wasn't sure if it was kosher to keep hammering away. But I suppose we've moved to new digs, and there will be new people reading here who weren't on EZ, so here goes my theory again (I apologize in advance for the length...)
Once upon a time there was a hook-nosed wizard named Dad Evans. He was an abusive husband and father, and the memory of him yelling at his witch wife while his pureblood young son, Perseus, cowered in a corner has stayed in the son's mind forever. The mother dies while the son is quite young, perhaps even as a result of something Dad did. Dad then farms the son out to an orphanage or something. Young Perseus Evans hates his Dad so much that he changes his name, via anagram, to Severus Snape. He wants nothing to do with the name Evans again. (Sounds a little like the Riddle deal here, but bear with me.) Because he has no mother, there is nobody to make sure his hair isn't greasy and his underpants aren't gray. He is lonely, geeky, and bitter, and his low self-esteem is masked by anger.
In the meantime, Dad Evans meets another lady and re-marries. This lady is a widow (she could be a witch who had been married to a Muggle, or she could be a Muggle) with two daughters from her first marriage, Petunia and Lily (Muggle-borns.) And for some reason, perhaps his love for the second wife, Dad Evans has a major personality change and becomes a good husband and father to his step-daughters, who have taken his name. (Admittedly, abusive types don't usually change personality, but let's just assume he does for whatever reason.) Severus is enraged that his father has abandoned and apparently forgotten him, while he dotes on his new family. A corrosive resentment begins to build up within Severus for his step-sisters, who may or may not know that he even exists. ('Why do THEY deserve MY father's love?!' type of thing.)
So then young Severus meets up with another youth, Sirius Black, who teases and torments him and nicknames him Snivellus. Sirius only knows him as Severus Snape, not Perseus Evans. Then, because both youths are wizards, they both go to Hogwarts, where Sirius expands the teasing by having his pal James and others to join him in making fun of Severus. And of course, the witch step-sister Lily Evans is there also, while Squib (or Muggle) Petunia is not.
Then we have the pensieve memory, where Lily defends Snape, probably just because she has a good heart, but perhaps because she knows he's her step-brother. And Snape rejects her help by the nasty "mudblood" comment because he still resents her. (Low self-esteem frequently lashes out at the very person who tries to help them.) And of course he hates James and Sirius for teasing him. So it's "I'll show THEM!" and he's off to join the DEs. Voldy knows exactly the buttons to push to get him to cross over -- "My dad was mean to my Mum too" and "With power, you can get back at your dad and your tormentors, too." Poor little boy who's always felt helpless, abandoned, and abused has finally found a home.
But then something happens to change his mind. Perhaps it's through his ability as a Legilimens that he sees true evil, or perhaps he blanches at the cruelty he sees Voldy employing. He's not a bad guy; after all, he has the good of his mother in him, and he's more a frustrated and angry outsider than a true evil-doer. So he is assisted by Dumbledore, who sees the good in him and wants to give him a second chance, to make the switchover. He feels a great deal of loyalty to Dumbledore because of getting the second chance. However, he still cannot rid himself completely of the bitterness he feels against Lily and James. And the fact that he owes James his life because of the Shrieking Shack incident makes it even worse. Also, a lifetime lived in a prickly, defensive mode is hard to shake, so he is still not the world's most pleasant person, even if he is no longer a DE.
And now here's Harry, the son of his two least-favorite people, whom he has to watch over on Dumbledore's request. He also has to pretend to have been faithful to Voldy all along and to dutifully file into the Circle at the graveyard, in order to fulfill his duties as spy for the Order. He is able to hide this from Voldy because he is a most highly skilled Legilimens, but grrrr...what a conflict!
And I'm sure 10-year-old Mark Evans fits into this also. Could it be that Snape has a wife and son who are going under his previous name in order to protect them because of his spy duties? He always hurries off from Order meetings, etc. because he has a wife and family to get home to!
So there you are. Told you it was long! :-) But, have at it!
Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2003 11:23 pm (#65 of 644)
Olivia Wood -
"Not to pick on anyone or anything, but I'm really getting tired of people 'sacrificing themselves' to save other people... Isn't once per series enough? Maybe twice?"
I agree with you on that, Olivia. While the Wizarding world is beginning a war and we all know characters we love will die, it might become too cliche for characters to sacrafice themselves.
It's possible Snape could die saving Harry, but Pollyanna Pigwidgeon (that's me) would much rather they both live at the end of the books and develop a relationship that, if not friendly, is at least without hostility.
Then again, Cedric's death came as a huge surprise to me, although Sirius Black's didn't, so maybe Snape will sacrifice himself after all.
Professor Kosh - Sep 7, 2003 11:27 am (#66 of 644)
Edited Sep 7, 2003 12:30 pm
Interesting theory Madame Pince. However, I don't think its too likely. As you said, abusive husbands/fathers almost never change. Also, Snape did use the term mudblood. My feeling is that was a bias that he grew up with in his home (although I don't think he really retains much of that anymore) and I think he probably picked it up from his father. Thus, I don't see a prejudiced wizard marrying a muggle, and I certainly don't see one 'abandoning' a pureblood son for a muggle-born witch and her muggle sister. Personally, I think the anagram thing is at best a red herring.
Still, the theory is interesting. I'd love to find out what, if any, relation Mark Evans has to Lily or Harry (or even Snape, were your theory correct!) Also, another thought. What if Snape's father did marry widowed/divorced Lily's mom, but remained abusive. It would help explain a little of Petunia's hatred toward magic!
Grant the Great - Sep 7, 2003 2:24 pm (#67 of 644)
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with the whole Snape-Lily related thing. Sorry, but I'm not going to expect that until Harry gets out his light saber and goes to space. It's just too Star Wars. I mean, I know there are relations things, but when you relate too many integral characters that are completely different, it just turns dumb (the Sirius-Bellatrix thing was done quite well, though, I must admit). Sorry if I offended anybody. I tried to say what I thought in a relatively kind manner.
Anyway, I'd like to throw out my theory (which doubtlessly also has holes). Snape, James, and Sirius are at school. Snape does something absolutely terrible to James in their seventh year (which is what will make us not like Snape as much anymore, as JKR has said that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him). I don't know exactly what it is, but James will try his hardest to put aside his resentment for this tragedy (perhaps a mostly-accidental killing?), probably pushed on by his new girlfriend. Sirius, however, won't put it aside so easily, and he will somehow allow Snape to "overhear" something about looking under the Whomping Willow on a full moon. Snape does this, and James, of course, saves him. This creates a life-debt. Well, Snape is too bitter to honor it too much, until he find out the Dark Lord is after the Potters (perhaps he was the spy that overheard part of the prophecy, but I think it was Mundungus Fletcher). Then, when the Dark Lord is talking about killing them, he turns over to DD's side, trying to repay his life-debt by saving the Potter's from the Dark Lord's wrath. However, he obviously fails, leaving him with a life-debt still in tact. This means that the life debt resolves to any of James's heirs (of which he only has one). Therefore, Snape now owes Harry a life-debt. He tries to repay it at the quidditch match in PS/SS, but Hermione actually takes over the life-saving by catching Quirrell's robes on fire. Thus, the life-debt is not repaid.
OK, there's the incredibly long theory. Tell me what you think (and please tell me if there is another incident where Snape tries--successfully or unsuccessfully--to save Harry's life).
Olivia Wood - Sep 7, 2003 2:47 pm (#68 of 644)
Nitpicking: Hermione actually sets Snape's robes on fire, she knocks Quirrell down accidentally.
Grant the Great - Sep 7, 2003 3:02 pm (#69 of 644)
Sorry, I was just writing fast and wasn't thinking very clearly on that part of my theory. Thanks for pointing that out; it seems to support my theory even better (Snape quite before Quirrell, making Snape receive no credit for finally saving Harry). Which brings up a new thought: since Dumbledore cushioned Harry's fall when he fell off his broom in Book 3, does that make Harry owe DD a life-debt?
Gina R Snape - Sep 7, 2003 4:44 pm (#70 of 644)
The whole life-debt thing is terribly confusing. What counts? What doesn't? I do, though, like the idea that Snape's effort to save Harry and relieve his life debt was thwarted by Hermione. heh, heh.
I don't buy the Severus Snape is Perseus Evans theory one iota. I think it's fun to think about, spinning theories out until they are out of control. But at base it doesn't fly with me for many many reasons.
I don't see Snape jumping in front of an AK to save Harry. But I do see him continuing to do things behind-the-scenes that are heroic, like the behind-the-scenes things he's been doing all along. And I do see him running off and doing something he knows could kill him in order to save Harry, but not in front of an audience. I don't see Harry being grateful for someone sacrificing their life. But especially not Snape. Harry and Snape are a lot alike in some ways. And I could see Harry being resentful if Snape jumped in front of an AK or something. He wouldn't think "Oh, that Snape saved my llife" he would think "Oh, that Snape thought I was too stupid or useless or whatever to protect my own life."
Madam Pince - Sep 7, 2003 10:07 pm (#71 of 644)
No offence taken, Grant. That's what this forum is for, I think, tossing out ideas and chewing on them awhile to find the holes. So even if Prof. Kosh, and Grant, and Gina, and... *sob!* doesn't ANYONE believe me?! :-)
No, seriously, I had also thought of the angle you mentioned, Professor, about the Dad staying abusive after marrying Lily's mom. However, I ran into a stumbling block then trying to think of why Snape would resent Lily. Good pickup, too, that Snape would typically learn the "mudblood" bias at home at an early age. It COULD be a later development though, particularly if he was just starting to feel out his idea of becoming a DE, and he may have been trying out the word to impress someone (a nearby Slytherin?) with the shock value.
Gina, I don't picture Snape's demise as him leaping dramatically in front of an AK before a huge audience either. You're right, he usually is behind the scenes, and is usually being as unpleasant as possible about it (probably so that nobody would accuse him of trying to save Harry's life -- heavens, that would mean he's got at least one redeeming quality!) But I do still think that he's going to die saving Harry -- dunno why for sure, I've just had this feeling building up ever since we first found out in PS/SS that he wasn't what we thought he was. In fact, I think maybe the best way to handle it would be that nobody else knew that he died for Harry -- except Harry and DD. The tragic martyr. How appealing!
Grant, I can't think of a specific "incident" where Snape tries to save Harry's life; it seems to me like it's just more of a constant thing. He's always there doing something which in the long run would help Harry, which of course Harry never recognizes as such. He was going to referee the Quidditch match so that Quirrell couldn't hurt Harry; the whole Occulemency lessons thing was designed to save Harry, etc. If one wanted to be generous, one could say that the reason Snape gets so enraged with Harry so often is because Harry (let's face it) often disregards all the warnings and efforts that others go to in order to try to protect him. Doesn't Snape say something to Harry that is sort of to that effect? I know I'd be ticked off if I was moving heaven and earth to try to help someone, and the silly kid was constantly endangering himself simply by being careless and immature. But the thing to keep in mind, I guess, is that Harry IS immature still, which I assume is why JKR allowed him to be such a ninny through most of OoP. I hope he'll mature more in the next book. If so, then Snape may be able to work with him a little more productively.
I'm just still rooting for Snape to turn out to be, if not a "good guy," at least one with an explanation for why he acts the way he does. I don't think it's going to be as simple as: If you're a nice person, you're on the side of the Order; If you're not a nice person, you're a DE. I think it's an important life lesson (and therefore a good book theme) to learn that just because someone is not on the side of evil, doesn't mean they're necessarily someone you'd love to sit down and have a butterbeer with. Or vice-versa, there may be people you like or even love who end up being very very bad news.
Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 2:04 am (#72 of 644)
Grant: Your theory has some interesting points, but does it require Snape doing something 'horrible' to James? I think it more likely Sirius did it more out of spite ("Spy on us, will you? Okay, you want to see, I'll let you see.") and believed that James (as Prongs) would be able to protect Snape from Lupin. Remember, they used to run around in Hogsmeade with wolf-ed-out Lupin and Lupin says himself that they were careless and arrogant. Only James, discovering this, realized that it was too dangerous (not just to Snape, but would likely give away thier illegal animagus status.). Sirius is and was not known for thinking things through, but acting impulsively and rashly. By this time, though, James had grown up a bit and realized that Sirius pushed it too far. This leaves the life-debt thing intact.
Also, Mundingus as the spy for Volde? That I doubt. If this were so, I don't think Mundingus would behave the way he does now. Even if he switched sides and joined DD, he indirectly lead to the deaths of the Potters. After his actions in OoP, if he had done the prior spying, I don't think DD would have allowed him to remain in the Order. I think it more likely that Snape himself was the spy, but I don't think so either. Still, I agree that Volde's intention to go after the Potters may have been the last straw that caused Snape to turn double-agent for DD.
Still, I wonder just what JKR means by not feeling 'too sorry' for Snape?
Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2003 9:02 am (#73 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:04 am
Hi, Professor Kosh
JKR may intend revealing more of Snape's past, and frankly, she almost has to. I'm sure he's done vile things or he would never have become a Death Eater.
It could also be that he does something horrid to someone at Hogwarts, even if it isn't life threatening. So far he's contented himself with making nasty remarks and threats, but with his "sunny" disposition and the war beginning, he might very easily lose his patience and his temper.
I've wondered why Snape is so intent on getting Harry expelled, though. Even if Harry is safest with Petunia, he wouldn't always be at the house. If he ended up expelled, he would either have to be a prisoner at Petunia's or someone besides Arabella Figg would have to live nearby to take the necessary measures for Harry's safety. I know Harry's mere presence is a thorn in Snape's side, but if Snape really doesn't want Harry dead, then his behavior seems a tad off plumb.
fidelio - Sep 8, 2003 9:17 am (#74 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:19 am
Weeny Owl, I don't think Snape is really serious about getting Harry expelled--it's probably window-dressing, to convince certain people that he's still the same reliable Death Eater they knew and trusted back in VoldyWarI. It's safe for him to make the threat, because DD isn't going to let it happen, but the children of DE's now at Hogwarts can tell their parents, "Oh, Snape is always down on that brat, it'd be the best day of his life if he could just get him expelled for all the stuff he does. Potter's dumb, too--you should see the mistakes he makes in Potions class!" Of course, Snape may be enjoying the fact that he can threaten James' son--but I think it's mostly for show.
Gina R Snape - Sep 8, 2003 9:36 am (#75 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:41 am
Madam Pince, in PoA, Snape and Lupin make nearly the same speech to Harry about his parents dying and others sacrificing to protect him and that he is ungrateful and should show more gratitude and respect.
I am of the opinion that Harry needs a good waking up to all that Snape has done for him. Harry needs to thank Snape for everything he's done, sometimes at great risk to himself for a kid who is not even grateful. But I've said it many times before here on the forum, so I won't get into my whole argument here. Sadly, I doubt it'll ever happen.
Sirius Black told Harry that the world isn't split into good people and death eaters. This was him trying to show Harry that the world is a more complicated place than what Harry has always believed. Children think in very black-and-white ways. But as we get older, become teenagers and forward, we begin to learn how the world is more complicated and about shades of grey. This is what Harry went through in OoP. And, I hope, he will soon realise that Snape is a "good" guy, just not a "nice" guy. Just like he must learn that Dumbledore is a good man, but still only a man.
Does Snape really want Harry expelled? I'm not sure. He wants Harry to not think he's privileged. He wants Harry to appreciate what others are doing for him. He wants Harry to have respect for rules designed for his safety, and to respect his elders. If he did want Harry expelled, I can only imagine it would be for his own protection, and maybe to relieve some of the daily pressure on him. Because the more rules Harry breaks (in Snape's mind), the more risks he takes, the greater danger he is in, the harder Snape's job is going to be. Dumbledore obviously has a different take. He wants Harry to learn how to get out of tight situations and learn how to have a few tricks up his sleeve for when that big showdown comes. Harry is privy to a lot of information, tools, magical items, etc. that others in the wizarding world don't seem to know about. Clearly, that is for a very specific reason. Unfortunately, Snape is so caught up in remembering how James got away with stuff that, like Sirius, he often sees James when he looks at Harry.
On the other hand, he might just derive some fun from frightening the heck out of Harry. And with all the pressure on him, the guy does need some kind of outlet.
Denise S. - Sep 8, 2003 10:09 am (#76 of 644)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 11:09 am
fidelio: " I don't think Snape is really serious about getting Harry expelled--it's probably window-dressing, to convince certain people that he's still the same reliable Death Eater they knew and trusted back in VoldyWarI."
I disagree. In CoS after the Flying Car Incident, Snape was in someone's office with Harry, Ron, Dumbledore, and McGonnagal--no potential Death Eater in sight. Yet the book says something like "The disappointment that Harry and Ron had not been expelled could not have been more obvious on Snape's face," (I'm loosely paraphrasing). I can't say why Snape would want Harry expelled when he ought to know that Hogwarts is the safest place for Harry, but if I disliked the kid that much, I'd prob'ly be inclined to feel the same.
*sigh*
People and their grudges. *tsk tsk*
Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2003 11:10 am (#77 of 644)
I think there are good arguments either way. It does make sense that it could be only for show, but also, with Snape's utter antipathy, it could be lingering in the back of his mind to make it happen.
Gina? You totally cracked me up about the poor guy needing some kind of outlet!
I do agree that Harry needs to see just how much people have done to protect him. I can understand his devastation about Sirius, but even I thought it unfair that he could even harbor the idea that it was Snape's fault. I would like to see JKR portray him as a bit more mature in the last two books.
I did say somewhere that I would like to see both Harry and Snape alive at the end and having, if not a friendly relationship, then at least one with grudging respect and little hostility.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 8, 2003 12:16 pm (#78 of 644)
Wow, as I am new here, I am addicted to reading everyone's ideas and theories, they are great!!!
But I have a few questions for Madam Pince or anyone who can answer them:
1. Where does it say that Severus changes his name so as to forget his past and abusive father, or is this speculation?
2. Madam Pince mentions Mark Evans in her theory and I know I have heard the name before, but I can't remember where and why.
Please help me with these questions. Also a comment...The fact that Snape and Lily's families are connected might explain why Petunia knows about dementors and Azkaban.
Thanks, Fawkesy Lady
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 12:33 pm (#79 of 644)
Fawkesy Lady:
1. This is a speculation that started a *long* time ago. As you are trying to read some of the speculation that's flying around here, I highly recommend you read some of the archived threads as well. I believe "Snape and Lily--Does it hold Water?" is the one with the best discussion. Good luck trying to catch up on everything! I don't envy you
2. Mark Evans is the 10-year-old boy Harry accuses Dudley of beating up in the first chapter of OoP. Don't worry, I missed it too. In case you don't know, Lily and Petunia's maiden name was Evans. It's probably not a coincidence that JKR choose this name for Mark also.
Welcome to the Forum!
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 8, 2003 12:41 pm (#80 of 644)
Schoff,
Thanks for the tips, as for the coincidence of Mark's last name, I don't believe that JKR allows coincidences...
FL
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 12:47 pm (#81 of 644)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 1:48 pm
You also might want to check out some of the discussions in the forum annex--especially about Mark.
I can't do the link, but the address is:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
(an older forum, pre-pub150, with not much on it is located at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
EDIT: Evidently, I *can* do the link, just by typing it in!
Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2003 5:05 pm (#82 of 644)
I think the link on the annex about Mark Evans was "Recurring Names" wasn't it?
And I missed the Mark Evans reference when I read it the first time, too. Heard it here on the Forum first! Just goes to show, 250-or-so heads are better than one!
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 5:09 pm (#83 of 644)
No kidding, Madam Pince! And yes, you're right. I'm pretty sure the thread was "Recurring Names."
Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 10:52 pm (#84 of 644)
I agree with those that believe Snape does try to get Harry expelled, especially at first, before the Order was re-activated. He has his reason for resenting Harry (both unjustified and justified. Harry doesn't exactly try to show Snape any respect.) In CoS, I believe Snape would have expelled any of his House (except Draco) who had done similar actions. In a way, DD (with McGonnagal)shielded Harry from the trouble he likely should have gotten from the car incident. Snape sees Harry getting away with things (as James did), and that understandibly causes resentment.
However, now that Volde's back, I don't think Snape would allow Harry's expulsion from Hogwarts (if he could).
Harry, especially in OoP, has been quite ungrateful. Heck, Snape saved his life. He is certainly not to blame for Sirius's death. If anyone could have prevented it, it is Harry. And I think, deep down, he knows this. If he had gone to Snape with the vision, Snape could have contacted Sirius and found out he was in no danger. I hope Harry comes to realize this. His attitude towards Snape at the end was incredibly immature, and as unfair as he often accuses Snape of being.
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 11:02 pm (#85 of 644)
Edited by Sep 9, 2003 12:03 am
It took me quite a while to figure out why Harry was mad at Snape for Sirius' death. Is it because Snape kept goading Sirius about his inability to actively help the Order, thereby making Sirius more apt to leave when Harry left to "save" him?
I'll also admit, I was very confused that Harry (or even Hermione) didn't think of Snape when he found out McGonnagal wasn't at Hogwarts. That seemed out of character to me.
Slytherin Prefect - Sep 9, 2003 2:07 am (#86 of 644)
I read that about 25% of the wizarding population is pureblood. Well, Slytherin House is 25% of Hogwarts, so maybe Volde was a unique case.
That's what I get for avoiding this thread so long, I miss something like this.
Let's say this 25% figure is accurate. Anthropology tells us that as human population increases, the 'straightness' of bloodlines decreases. So, rather than say perhaps a 5% margin on this statistic, which would be appropriate, that 5% can only apply on the lesser side, so our actual representation of the population would be approximately 20%-28% or so. Let's play Devil's Advocate and say that 28% of the wizarding population is pure-blood.
Slytherin representing 25% of the school sounds pretty accurate, and in theory should be the case without error (assuming a number of students divisible by four every year, that is).
Don't forget, however, that pure-blood wizards show up frequently in other houses as well... The Weasleys have all been Gryffindors. Neville is a Gryffindor. Seamus is a Gryffindor... Susan Bones is a Hufflepuff...
I would venture a guess that no less than 3 of the 25 percent that each house takes is a pure-blood witch or wizard. Playing Devil's Advocate again, we'll say 3, making 9% of the school pure-blooded and either Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw.
Going by this logic, we can simply subtract 9 from 28 and get 19. That means that, at best, that means that the rest of the pure-blooded population of Hogwarts (19% of the school's population, at best) belongs to Slytherin. However, Slytherin houses 25% of the school.
Which means that no less than 6% of Slytherin's take of the school, or 6/25, approximately ONE FOURTH the Slytherin house, is not pure-blooded.
They apparently are the folk who will "use any means to achieve their ends." ^_^
Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 2:33 am (#87 of 644)
Good point, SP! I wonder how those non-pure students deal with the attitudes of people like Malfoy. Are they afraid of him? Given the Slytherin attitude (as presented so far), I'm suprised Draco hasn't gotten his ferret-butt kicked yet. Still, perhaps they are a silent minority, who keep to themselves and don't participate in some of the more repugnant of Slytherin's actions.
I don't know if Hermionie's and Harry's failure to think of Snape was so much 'out of character'. Neither of them trust him, or really think of him as an ally. The wise, correct thing to do would be contact Snape, but I think it is consistent that they overlooked him.
Weeny Owl - Sep 9, 2003 8:28 am (#88 of 644)
Professor Kosh - "I don't know if Hermionie's and Harry's failure to think of Snape was so much 'out of character'. Neither of them trust him, or really think of him as an ally. The wise, correct thing to do would be contact Snape, but I think it is consistent that they overlooked him. "
You make an excellent point on that, Professor Kosh. Snape hasn't exactly made himself seem trustworthy to the trio, so him popping up in their minds as someone to go to in times of trouble wouldn't occur to them.
Also, and not to make excuses for them, they are teens, and while it may seem to adult readers that a particular course of action is wise, situations will look different from their perspective.
Then too, Snape wasn't exactly hanging around with the Order having dinner and chatting. He wasn't one of the ones who removed Harry from 4 Privet Drive. Harry remembered it too late, but he did what he could after realizing his blunder.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 9, 2003 9:36 am (#89 of 644)
I have to admit, as an adult, I didn't even think about Snape and I love his character. It is difficult to see Severus as an ally with Harry.
Gina R Snape - Sep 9, 2003 12:48 pm (#90 of 644)
During my first read of OoP,I kept screaming "What about Snape, you idiot! Go to Snape!!!"
But, in truth, I don't think any of the kids would ever in a million years think of him as a resource. Hermione may not believe him to be evil, but that doesn't mean she sees him as a resource either. Plus, it's much easier to think of these things watching from the outside than when you are right in the midst of the drama/dilemma.
Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:44 pm (#91 of 644)
I also think it's things like this that increases Snape's resentment. I believe (as do many others) that Snape sees himself as labouring hard for Harry's welfare and the Order, and sees himself as terribly unappreciated. If Harry ever acted grateful for Snape's help, ever really showed respect, I think he would deflect much of Snape's resentment. I can imagine how Snape feels, unappreciated (except by DD, and you see how Snape respects DD).
Madam Pince - Sep 9, 2003 2:10 pm (#92 of 644)
Gina, I was in exactly the same frame of mind. In fact, I spent a good part of OoP feeling like 'this is an awfully long book for not much to be happening except for Harry acting like a prat.' But I kept reminding myself of Harry's age, and I have to admire JKR for writing appropriately. I know when I was that age, I probably thought I knew more than a lot of adults also. But as Prof. Kosh says, it doesn't help Harry's relationship with Snape. I think that the whole underappreciated bit is a large part of why Snape is so bitter. He's not the most pleasant guy to start with, and then add the martyr complex and he can be downright nasty at times. Some of his comments have been really beyond the pale for a professional, er..professor. I think if Harry gave him a modicum of respect, it might help a little, but I don't think Snape's ever going to become anybody's best buddy.
dracomustgo - Sep 10, 2003 4:46 am (#93 of 644)
This may have been answered already, but I have to ask. Why did Snape and Pettigrew not know about each other?
Weeny Owl - Sep 10, 2003 8:01 am (#94 of 644)
Madame Pince - "Some of his comments have been really beyond the pale for a professional, er..professor. I think if Harry gave him a modicum of respect, it might help a little, but I don't think Snape's ever going to become anybody's best buddy."
You're right... Snape's attitude show little professionalism. I think if they both gave the other a modicum of respect it would help a little.
Snape had every right to insist on being called "Professor" or "sir" during Harry's first Occlumency lesson, but at the same time, since the lessons weren't something frivolous but necessary, Snape, being the adult, could have thought less of how he was being addressed and more about the urgency of Harry learning.
He resents Harry in general, Harry's attitudes, Harry's constant rule breaking, but he's never looked at Harry as an individual whose life is beyond anything most students (or even adults) experience.
Harry doesn't see, or isn't willing to admit, that Snape has gone the extra mile. Snape has endangered himself for Harry's sake, but Harry just thumbs his nose at it all.
If Snape had done this, if Harry had done that... well, things might be different. Since they're not, Dumbledore should sit Snape and Harry down and try once again to make sure each knows that the hostilities must end on both sides because their problems with each other are totally unimportant compared to what's coming. Of course, if Dumbledore did this, it probably wouldn't help. Something major is going to have to happen before they look at each other in a different light. I just hope it isn't too late.
haymoni - Sep 10, 2003 8:29 am (#95 of 644)
If this has been discussed, pardon my laziness at reading 94 previous postings.
Snape says "Yes, that is my job" when Harry confronts him as the one who finds out what Voldemort is doing. I took this to mean that Snape is pretending to be a Death Eater. I am assuming he is using Occlumency to block any attempt by Voldemort to access his thoughts.
Snape has to pretend he hates Harry and Neville (since the Longbottoms were Aurors) especially in front of Draco, so that Lucius can be assured that Snape is actually on their side.
His comments to Crabbe (it could have been Goyle - what's the difference?) to loosen his hold on Neville's neck are spoken in such a manner that he is able to help Neville, but not blow his cover.
Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape DID understand Harry's comments about Padfoot and that Snape contacted Sirius. He also told Harry that he thought Snape had gotten over his hatred of James.
I am hoping that Harry accepts Snape's double life and uses it to his advantage.
Olivia Wood - Sep 10, 2003 5:45 pm (#96 of 644)
Does he tell Harry he thinks Snape had gotten over his hatred of James? I don't remember that part....?
While I know that Snape and Harry's relationship is far from perfect, am I the only one who was impressed with the relative level of maturity Snape was showing in OoP concerning Harry? Apart from the Pensieve incident, of course, I thought they were getting along fine, making lots of progress. Snape complimented Harry not once, but twice! Doesn't that mean anything?
Gina R Snape - Sep 10, 2003 6:13 pm (#97 of 644)
Yeah, I noticed that too. I think there was a lot more than just "immaturity" to Snape giving up on Harry's Occlumency lessons.
Sly Girl - Sep 10, 2003 7:44 pm (#98 of 644)
Olivia (she of the funny avatars): "I thought they were getting along fine, making lots of progress. Snape complimented Harry not once, but twice! Doesn't that mean anything? "
Yeah, but from Harry's perspective of 5 years of being persucuted by Snape in almost every way, shape and form, two compliments is like two cups of water on a forest fire. It's a start but a terribly long way away from getting anywhere.
Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 9:50 pm (#99 of 644)
Gina: I don't think Snape's reaction to the pensieve incident was 'immaturity'. Harry violated his privacy, and experienced one of Snape's most humiliating memories. I think most normal people, let alone one with Snape's personalities, would have been highly offended and react somewhat similarly. Did Harry ever try to back to Snape and apologize? No. I'm not sure if you are implying something sinister about Snape's motives in refusing to further teach Harry, but if so, then I think that may be mistaken
molga parrot - Sep 11, 2003 1:35 am (#100 of 644)
Looking at Snape's memories was a rotten thing to do, like reading someone's private diary. Harry deserves a slap for that, if you ask me.
I've often thought that "persues Evans" made perfect sense. I never noticed the spelling. It just goes to show that we see what we want to see.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 4, 2003 8:49 pm (#52 of 644)
However, just to keep the pot boiling, it does anagram into Peruses Evans!
popkin - Sep 4, 2003 9:04 pm (#53 of 644)
Yes, it does. And it anagrams to "never uses spa". I don't remember who came up with that one. It wasn't me. But I liked it.
Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 9:06 pm (#54 of 644)
Heeeheeeheee, popkin. That ties in with the greying undies so perfectly! Oh, my...
Madam Pince - Sep 5, 2003 9:40 pm (#55 of 644)
Edited Sep 5, 2003 10:48 pm
Never uses spa -- that's great! I love it! But I really do think it's going to be the Perseus Evans thing -- he changed his name when he disowned his abusive father, and it turns out he's either Lily's cousin (Mooney's Heir's theory, I think) or Lily's & Petunia's unknown stepbrother (my own personal favorite.)
For another theory, like Prof. Kosh, I fully believe that Snape is going to die, but not in book 6. I think he's going to be the big death scene in book 7. He's going to take the shot that's meant for Harry, and die saving him and also saving the Order. This will be the ultimate repayment of his life-debt to James. AND it may finally get Harry to see (wrenchingly, too late, of course) that Snape is not really evil and detestable (sorry, Slytherin Prefect!) I've gotta say I agree with Gina -- I spent a good part of OoP being extremely annoyed with Harry! I mean, come on, there at the end at Hogwarts when he was going "Oh dear what'll we do, there's nobody else left here from the Order who can help us!" I wanted to smack him! I was jumping up and down yelling "Snape! Snape! What's the matter with you, boy!" Like Mrs. Figg said at the beginning of the book -- "Good Lord, boy, they told me you were intelligent!" (My favorite quote, BTW, I think it sums up the whole book!)
Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 7:26 am (#56 of 644)
Madame Pince: "But I really do think it's going to be the Perseus Evans thing -- he changed his name when he disowned his abusive father, and it turns out he's either Lily's cousin (Mooney's Heir's theory, I think) or Lily's & Petunia's unknown stepbrother (my own personal favorite.)" (underlines added)
Wait, didn't JKR say somewere that Lily was a muggle-born? If that's the case, I don't see how a pure-blood like Snape would be related to her.
Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 1:00 pm (#57 of 644)
Do we know for certain that Snape is pure-blood? (Although I don't believe Snape is related to Petunia or Lily, just to be straight. heh) But I know he's in Slytherin...but so was Tom Riddle and he was half, like Harry (who also might have ended up there). So do we have an definitive answer to this question or did I miss it? Does Slytherin take half-bloods? (I would say the answer is yes, based on the above)
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 2:35 pm (#58 of 644)
Yeah, Slytherin House has taken a half-bloods (Volde) that we know. However, that half-blood was also the last descendant of Salazar Slytherin himself! Somewhere (here in the Lexicon or on the Ren Hen essays) I read that about 25% of the wizarding population is pureblood. Well, Slytherin House is 25% of Hogwarts, so maybe Volde was a unique case. (As for Harry's near placement there; he recieved some of Volde's essence in the infanthood attack, as he is now a Parselmouth and connected mentally to Volde, and that may be what the Sorting Hat sensed). I don't see how a half-blood could function in Slytherin without being a pariah. Also, I don't think Snape would have used the term 'mud-blood' as a child if he weren't a pureblood. Also, while Volde may have hidden his origins (from Belletrix's reaction, I suspect the only DEs who know are Wormtail and likely Malfoy. I bet Wormtail doesn't care, and Malfoy is manipulative and ambitious enough to ignore it for now), I doubt Snape could do so as easily, so I don't think if he were one he'd be able to be in the DEs quite so easily. I think the anagram of Snape's name is a red herring.
Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 7:08 pm (#59 of 644)
Sly Girl:"Do we know for certain that Snape is pure-blood?"
Well, he called Lily a mudblood, so I would assume he takes pride in the fact that he is not a "mudblood", hence he's a pureblood.
Regarding Slytherins being only purebloods: the house places students in Slytherin based on their resourcefulness and ambition, not on their genetics. At least, that's how I see it.
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 7:46 pm (#60 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 8:46 pm
Perhaps, but then think of all the torment those Slytherins who are half-blood or Muggle-born would go through! There would be fights among the Slytherins daily! No, I don't think ambition and resourcefulness are the only things the Hat considers. Remember that the hat was created to mimic how the Founders would have chosen, and to Salazar, pure-bloodedness was very important. Riddle got in because he was descendant of Salazar, and Harry was considered because of his connection with Voldemort. Given both Salazar's opinions and the Slytherin House's general attitude, I think the Hat must consider genetics.
Cristina Tatiana Zadorojny - Sep 6, 2003 8:52 pm (#61 of 644)
yes, yes, yes!!!! oh, my gosh! i think exactly the same thing!!! i'm CONVINCED that snape is going to die saving harry's life. i KNOW snape is one of the MOST important characters in the books. i've loved snape since the beginning, despite the way he treats harry and his favouritism towards the slytherins. the sole fact that dumbledore trusts him is enough for me, is PROOF that he's no DE. dumbledore's word is gold to me. i'm DYING to find out what's that fact, or what's that thing that snape must have done to convince dumbledore that he's DEFENITELY not on voldemort's side. and if DD's convinced, you know it's true. what he did must have been really big. we have yet to find out what it is, and i'm DYING to know. it's one of the series's biggest mysteries. you know j.k. rowling is letting us know about snape and the mystery of his life little by little, and that it's all going to be a big bang in book 7. the series is NOT going to end w/ snape and harry hating each other. there's so much more to all of this. i'm completely, 100% CONVINCED that snape is going to die saving harry's life. CONVINCED. there's no doubt in my mind. there's going to be a very big bond between snape and harry towards the end, and we have yet to find out what it is. it's going to blow our minds away, i just KNOW it.
Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 9:02 pm (#62 of 644)
Whoop! Watch that capitalization and punctuation there Cristina! We are pretty big on proper writing in this forum. I refer you to the Philosophy thread to understand the rules. Netspeak is a big no no here. (Plus, I just can't follow it. I guess I'm too old!)
Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 9:43 pm (#63 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 10:44 pm
Not to pick on anyone or anything, but I'm really getting tired of people 'sacrificing themselves' to save other people... Isn't once per series enough? Maybe twice? They're not *all* going to die to save each other, or else then they'll all be dead and the whole thing pointless! Lily already died to save Harry, do we really need to see that repeated again? Realistically, how likely is it that you're going to get an oppirtunity to take an Avada Kedavra for someone else? Aren't we getting a little carried away with the drama? I don't think Harry would really appreciate people dying to save his life as much as one might think...
Okay, I'm done being grumpy now. Goodnight.
Madam Pince - Sep 6, 2003 10:31 pm (#64 of 644)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 11:36 pm
Well, I understand where you're coming from Olivia, but think of it this way -- the current situation in OoP is in fact a war. A war of good vs. evil. And in wars, there are usually lots and lots of sacrifices, unfortunately. Ask any veteran. People are always dying in war to save others, or to save causes, or whatever. So the fact that the last chapter of OoP is entitled "The Second War Begins" is a pretty big clue, I think, that more folks are going to die. Sacrifice and death during war isn't melodrama, it's just fact.
But anyway, back to my earlier post -- Denise, I agree that Lily is muggle-born and that Snape is pure-blood, although I think Sly Girl is right that it isn't exactly specified in canon that he's pureblood - it's just a pretty good assumption. I was just being wary of posting my huge long theory which explains how they could be related/same last names without being blood relatives. I posted it on the EZBoard annex forum just a week or so ago, and I wasn't sure if it was kosher to keep hammering away. But I suppose we've moved to new digs, and there will be new people reading here who weren't on EZ, so here goes my theory again (I apologize in advance for the length...)
Once upon a time there was a hook-nosed wizard named Dad Evans. He was an abusive husband and father, and the memory of him yelling at his witch wife while his pureblood young son, Perseus, cowered in a corner has stayed in the son's mind forever. The mother dies while the son is quite young, perhaps even as a result of something Dad did. Dad then farms the son out to an orphanage or something. Young Perseus Evans hates his Dad so much that he changes his name, via anagram, to Severus Snape. He wants nothing to do with the name Evans again. (Sounds a little like the Riddle deal here, but bear with me.) Because he has no mother, there is nobody to make sure his hair isn't greasy and his underpants aren't gray. He is lonely, geeky, and bitter, and his low self-esteem is masked by anger.
In the meantime, Dad Evans meets another lady and re-marries. This lady is a widow (she could be a witch who had been married to a Muggle, or she could be a Muggle) with two daughters from her first marriage, Petunia and Lily (Muggle-borns.) And for some reason, perhaps his love for the second wife, Dad Evans has a major personality change and becomes a good husband and father to his step-daughters, who have taken his name. (Admittedly, abusive types don't usually change personality, but let's just assume he does for whatever reason.) Severus is enraged that his father has abandoned and apparently forgotten him, while he dotes on his new family. A corrosive resentment begins to build up within Severus for his step-sisters, who may or may not know that he even exists. ('Why do THEY deserve MY father's love?!' type of thing.)
So then young Severus meets up with another youth, Sirius Black, who teases and torments him and nicknames him Snivellus. Sirius only knows him as Severus Snape, not Perseus Evans. Then, because both youths are wizards, they both go to Hogwarts, where Sirius expands the teasing by having his pal James and others to join him in making fun of Severus. And of course, the witch step-sister Lily Evans is there also, while Squib (or Muggle) Petunia is not.
Then we have the pensieve memory, where Lily defends Snape, probably just because she has a good heart, but perhaps because she knows he's her step-brother. And Snape rejects her help by the nasty "mudblood" comment because he still resents her. (Low self-esteem frequently lashes out at the very person who tries to help them.) And of course he hates James and Sirius for teasing him. So it's "I'll show THEM!" and he's off to join the DEs. Voldy knows exactly the buttons to push to get him to cross over -- "My dad was mean to my Mum too" and "With power, you can get back at your dad and your tormentors, too." Poor little boy who's always felt helpless, abandoned, and abused has finally found a home.
But then something happens to change his mind. Perhaps it's through his ability as a Legilimens that he sees true evil, or perhaps he blanches at the cruelty he sees Voldy employing. He's not a bad guy; after all, he has the good of his mother in him, and he's more a frustrated and angry outsider than a true evil-doer. So he is assisted by Dumbledore, who sees the good in him and wants to give him a second chance, to make the switchover. He feels a great deal of loyalty to Dumbledore because of getting the second chance. However, he still cannot rid himself completely of the bitterness he feels against Lily and James. And the fact that he owes James his life because of the Shrieking Shack incident makes it even worse. Also, a lifetime lived in a prickly, defensive mode is hard to shake, so he is still not the world's most pleasant person, even if he is no longer a DE.
And now here's Harry, the son of his two least-favorite people, whom he has to watch over on Dumbledore's request. He also has to pretend to have been faithful to Voldy all along and to dutifully file into the Circle at the graveyard, in order to fulfill his duties as spy for the Order. He is able to hide this from Voldy because he is a most highly skilled Legilimens, but grrrr...what a conflict!
And I'm sure 10-year-old Mark Evans fits into this also. Could it be that Snape has a wife and son who are going under his previous name in order to protect them because of his spy duties? He always hurries off from Order meetings, etc. because he has a wife and family to get home to!
So there you are. Told you it was long! :-) But, have at it!
Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2003 11:23 pm (#65 of 644)
Olivia Wood -
"Not to pick on anyone or anything, but I'm really getting tired of people 'sacrificing themselves' to save other people... Isn't once per series enough? Maybe twice?"
I agree with you on that, Olivia. While the Wizarding world is beginning a war and we all know characters we love will die, it might become too cliche for characters to sacrafice themselves.
It's possible Snape could die saving Harry, but Pollyanna Pigwidgeon (that's me) would much rather they both live at the end of the books and develop a relationship that, if not friendly, is at least without hostility.
Then again, Cedric's death came as a huge surprise to me, although Sirius Black's didn't, so maybe Snape will sacrifice himself after all.
Professor Kosh - Sep 7, 2003 11:27 am (#66 of 644)
Edited Sep 7, 2003 12:30 pm
Interesting theory Madame Pince. However, I don't think its too likely. As you said, abusive husbands/fathers almost never change. Also, Snape did use the term mudblood. My feeling is that was a bias that he grew up with in his home (although I don't think he really retains much of that anymore) and I think he probably picked it up from his father. Thus, I don't see a prejudiced wizard marrying a muggle, and I certainly don't see one 'abandoning' a pureblood son for a muggle-born witch and her muggle sister. Personally, I think the anagram thing is at best a red herring.
Still, the theory is interesting. I'd love to find out what, if any, relation Mark Evans has to Lily or Harry (or even Snape, were your theory correct!) Also, another thought. What if Snape's father did marry widowed/divorced Lily's mom, but remained abusive. It would help explain a little of Petunia's hatred toward magic!
Grant the Great - Sep 7, 2003 2:24 pm (#67 of 644)
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with the whole Snape-Lily related thing. Sorry, but I'm not going to expect that until Harry gets out his light saber and goes to space. It's just too Star Wars. I mean, I know there are relations things, but when you relate too many integral characters that are completely different, it just turns dumb (the Sirius-Bellatrix thing was done quite well, though, I must admit). Sorry if I offended anybody. I tried to say what I thought in a relatively kind manner.
Anyway, I'd like to throw out my theory (which doubtlessly also has holes). Snape, James, and Sirius are at school. Snape does something absolutely terrible to James in their seventh year (which is what will make us not like Snape as much anymore, as JKR has said that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him). I don't know exactly what it is, but James will try his hardest to put aside his resentment for this tragedy (perhaps a mostly-accidental killing?), probably pushed on by his new girlfriend. Sirius, however, won't put it aside so easily, and he will somehow allow Snape to "overhear" something about looking under the Whomping Willow on a full moon. Snape does this, and James, of course, saves him. This creates a life-debt. Well, Snape is too bitter to honor it too much, until he find out the Dark Lord is after the Potters (perhaps he was the spy that overheard part of the prophecy, but I think it was Mundungus Fletcher). Then, when the Dark Lord is talking about killing them, he turns over to DD's side, trying to repay his life-debt by saving the Potter's from the Dark Lord's wrath. However, he obviously fails, leaving him with a life-debt still in tact. This means that the life debt resolves to any of James's heirs (of which he only has one). Therefore, Snape now owes Harry a life-debt. He tries to repay it at the quidditch match in PS/SS, but Hermione actually takes over the life-saving by catching Quirrell's robes on fire. Thus, the life-debt is not repaid.
OK, there's the incredibly long theory. Tell me what you think (and please tell me if there is another incident where Snape tries--successfully or unsuccessfully--to save Harry's life).
Olivia Wood - Sep 7, 2003 2:47 pm (#68 of 644)
Nitpicking: Hermione actually sets Snape's robes on fire, she knocks Quirrell down accidentally.
Grant the Great - Sep 7, 2003 3:02 pm (#69 of 644)
Sorry, I was just writing fast and wasn't thinking very clearly on that part of my theory. Thanks for pointing that out; it seems to support my theory even better (Snape quite before Quirrell, making Snape receive no credit for finally saving Harry). Which brings up a new thought: since Dumbledore cushioned Harry's fall when he fell off his broom in Book 3, does that make Harry owe DD a life-debt?
Gina R Snape - Sep 7, 2003 4:44 pm (#70 of 644)
The whole life-debt thing is terribly confusing. What counts? What doesn't? I do, though, like the idea that Snape's effort to save Harry and relieve his life debt was thwarted by Hermione. heh, heh.
I don't buy the Severus Snape is Perseus Evans theory one iota. I think it's fun to think about, spinning theories out until they are out of control. But at base it doesn't fly with me for many many reasons.
I don't see Snape jumping in front of an AK to save Harry. But I do see him continuing to do things behind-the-scenes that are heroic, like the behind-the-scenes things he's been doing all along. And I do see him running off and doing something he knows could kill him in order to save Harry, but not in front of an audience. I don't see Harry being grateful for someone sacrificing their life. But especially not Snape. Harry and Snape are a lot alike in some ways. And I could see Harry being resentful if Snape jumped in front of an AK or something. He wouldn't think "Oh, that Snape saved my llife" he would think "Oh, that Snape thought I was too stupid or useless or whatever to protect my own life."
Madam Pince - Sep 7, 2003 10:07 pm (#71 of 644)
No offence taken, Grant. That's what this forum is for, I think, tossing out ideas and chewing on them awhile to find the holes. So even if Prof. Kosh, and Grant, and Gina, and... *sob!* doesn't ANYONE believe me?! :-)
No, seriously, I had also thought of the angle you mentioned, Professor, about the Dad staying abusive after marrying Lily's mom. However, I ran into a stumbling block then trying to think of why Snape would resent Lily. Good pickup, too, that Snape would typically learn the "mudblood" bias at home at an early age. It COULD be a later development though, particularly if he was just starting to feel out his idea of becoming a DE, and he may have been trying out the word to impress someone (a nearby Slytherin?) with the shock value.
Gina, I don't picture Snape's demise as him leaping dramatically in front of an AK before a huge audience either. You're right, he usually is behind the scenes, and is usually being as unpleasant as possible about it (probably so that nobody would accuse him of trying to save Harry's life -- heavens, that would mean he's got at least one redeeming quality!) But I do still think that he's going to die saving Harry -- dunno why for sure, I've just had this feeling building up ever since we first found out in PS/SS that he wasn't what we thought he was. In fact, I think maybe the best way to handle it would be that nobody else knew that he died for Harry -- except Harry and DD. The tragic martyr. How appealing!
Grant, I can't think of a specific "incident" where Snape tries to save Harry's life; it seems to me like it's just more of a constant thing. He's always there doing something which in the long run would help Harry, which of course Harry never recognizes as such. He was going to referee the Quidditch match so that Quirrell couldn't hurt Harry; the whole Occulemency lessons thing was designed to save Harry, etc. If one wanted to be generous, one could say that the reason Snape gets so enraged with Harry so often is because Harry (let's face it) often disregards all the warnings and efforts that others go to in order to try to protect him. Doesn't Snape say something to Harry that is sort of to that effect? I know I'd be ticked off if I was moving heaven and earth to try to help someone, and the silly kid was constantly endangering himself simply by being careless and immature. But the thing to keep in mind, I guess, is that Harry IS immature still, which I assume is why JKR allowed him to be such a ninny through most of OoP. I hope he'll mature more in the next book. If so, then Snape may be able to work with him a little more productively.
I'm just still rooting for Snape to turn out to be, if not a "good guy," at least one with an explanation for why he acts the way he does. I don't think it's going to be as simple as: If you're a nice person, you're on the side of the Order; If you're not a nice person, you're a DE. I think it's an important life lesson (and therefore a good book theme) to learn that just because someone is not on the side of evil, doesn't mean they're necessarily someone you'd love to sit down and have a butterbeer with. Or vice-versa, there may be people you like or even love who end up being very very bad news.
Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 2:04 am (#72 of 644)
Grant: Your theory has some interesting points, but does it require Snape doing something 'horrible' to James? I think it more likely Sirius did it more out of spite ("Spy on us, will you? Okay, you want to see, I'll let you see.") and believed that James (as Prongs) would be able to protect Snape from Lupin. Remember, they used to run around in Hogsmeade with wolf-ed-out Lupin and Lupin says himself that they were careless and arrogant. Only James, discovering this, realized that it was too dangerous (not just to Snape, but would likely give away thier illegal animagus status.). Sirius is and was not known for thinking things through, but acting impulsively and rashly. By this time, though, James had grown up a bit and realized that Sirius pushed it too far. This leaves the life-debt thing intact.
Also, Mundingus as the spy for Volde? That I doubt. If this were so, I don't think Mundingus would behave the way he does now. Even if he switched sides and joined DD, he indirectly lead to the deaths of the Potters. After his actions in OoP, if he had done the prior spying, I don't think DD would have allowed him to remain in the Order. I think it more likely that Snape himself was the spy, but I don't think so either. Still, I agree that Volde's intention to go after the Potters may have been the last straw that caused Snape to turn double-agent for DD.
Still, I wonder just what JKR means by not feeling 'too sorry' for Snape?
Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2003 9:02 am (#73 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:04 am
Hi, Professor Kosh
JKR may intend revealing more of Snape's past, and frankly, she almost has to. I'm sure he's done vile things or he would never have become a Death Eater.
It could also be that he does something horrid to someone at Hogwarts, even if it isn't life threatening. So far he's contented himself with making nasty remarks and threats, but with his "sunny" disposition and the war beginning, he might very easily lose his patience and his temper.
I've wondered why Snape is so intent on getting Harry expelled, though. Even if Harry is safest with Petunia, he wouldn't always be at the house. If he ended up expelled, he would either have to be a prisoner at Petunia's or someone besides Arabella Figg would have to live nearby to take the necessary measures for Harry's safety. I know Harry's mere presence is a thorn in Snape's side, but if Snape really doesn't want Harry dead, then his behavior seems a tad off plumb.
fidelio - Sep 8, 2003 9:17 am (#74 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:19 am
Weeny Owl, I don't think Snape is really serious about getting Harry expelled--it's probably window-dressing, to convince certain people that he's still the same reliable Death Eater they knew and trusted back in VoldyWarI. It's safe for him to make the threat, because DD isn't going to let it happen, but the children of DE's now at Hogwarts can tell their parents, "Oh, Snape is always down on that brat, it'd be the best day of his life if he could just get him expelled for all the stuff he does. Potter's dumb, too--you should see the mistakes he makes in Potions class!" Of course, Snape may be enjoying the fact that he can threaten James' son--but I think it's mostly for show.
Gina R Snape - Sep 8, 2003 9:36 am (#75 of 644)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 10:41 am
Madam Pince, in PoA, Snape and Lupin make nearly the same speech to Harry about his parents dying and others sacrificing to protect him and that he is ungrateful and should show more gratitude and respect.
I am of the opinion that Harry needs a good waking up to all that Snape has done for him. Harry needs to thank Snape for everything he's done, sometimes at great risk to himself for a kid who is not even grateful. But I've said it many times before here on the forum, so I won't get into my whole argument here. Sadly, I doubt it'll ever happen.
Sirius Black told Harry that the world isn't split into good people and death eaters. This was him trying to show Harry that the world is a more complicated place than what Harry has always believed. Children think in very black-and-white ways. But as we get older, become teenagers and forward, we begin to learn how the world is more complicated and about shades of grey. This is what Harry went through in OoP. And, I hope, he will soon realise that Snape is a "good" guy, just not a "nice" guy. Just like he must learn that Dumbledore is a good man, but still only a man.
Does Snape really want Harry expelled? I'm not sure. He wants Harry to not think he's privileged. He wants Harry to appreciate what others are doing for him. He wants Harry to have respect for rules designed for his safety, and to respect his elders. If he did want Harry expelled, I can only imagine it would be for his own protection, and maybe to relieve some of the daily pressure on him. Because the more rules Harry breaks (in Snape's mind), the more risks he takes, the greater danger he is in, the harder Snape's job is going to be. Dumbledore obviously has a different take. He wants Harry to learn how to get out of tight situations and learn how to have a few tricks up his sleeve for when that big showdown comes. Harry is privy to a lot of information, tools, magical items, etc. that others in the wizarding world don't seem to know about. Clearly, that is for a very specific reason. Unfortunately, Snape is so caught up in remembering how James got away with stuff that, like Sirius, he often sees James when he looks at Harry.
On the other hand, he might just derive some fun from frightening the heck out of Harry. And with all the pressure on him, the guy does need some kind of outlet.
Denise S. - Sep 8, 2003 10:09 am (#76 of 644)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 11:09 am
fidelio: " I don't think Snape is really serious about getting Harry expelled--it's probably window-dressing, to convince certain people that he's still the same reliable Death Eater they knew and trusted back in VoldyWarI."
I disagree. In CoS after the Flying Car Incident, Snape was in someone's office with Harry, Ron, Dumbledore, and McGonnagal--no potential Death Eater in sight. Yet the book says something like "The disappointment that Harry and Ron had not been expelled could not have been more obvious on Snape's face," (I'm loosely paraphrasing). I can't say why Snape would want Harry expelled when he ought to know that Hogwarts is the safest place for Harry, but if I disliked the kid that much, I'd prob'ly be inclined to feel the same.
*sigh*
People and their grudges. *tsk tsk*
Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2003 11:10 am (#77 of 644)
I think there are good arguments either way. It does make sense that it could be only for show, but also, with Snape's utter antipathy, it could be lingering in the back of his mind to make it happen.
Gina? You totally cracked me up about the poor guy needing some kind of outlet!
I do agree that Harry needs to see just how much people have done to protect him. I can understand his devastation about Sirius, but even I thought it unfair that he could even harbor the idea that it was Snape's fault. I would like to see JKR portray him as a bit more mature in the last two books.
I did say somewhere that I would like to see both Harry and Snape alive at the end and having, if not a friendly relationship, then at least one with grudging respect and little hostility.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 8, 2003 12:16 pm (#78 of 644)
Wow, as I am new here, I am addicted to reading everyone's ideas and theories, they are great!!!
But I have a few questions for Madam Pince or anyone who can answer them:
1. Where does it say that Severus changes his name so as to forget his past and abusive father, or is this speculation?
2. Madam Pince mentions Mark Evans in her theory and I know I have heard the name before, but I can't remember where and why.
Please help me with these questions. Also a comment...The fact that Snape and Lily's families are connected might explain why Petunia knows about dementors and Azkaban.
Thanks, Fawkesy Lady
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 12:33 pm (#79 of 644)
Fawkesy Lady:
1. This is a speculation that started a *long* time ago. As you are trying to read some of the speculation that's flying around here, I highly recommend you read some of the archived threads as well. I believe "Snape and Lily--Does it hold Water?" is the one with the best discussion. Good luck trying to catch up on everything! I don't envy you
2. Mark Evans is the 10-year-old boy Harry accuses Dudley of beating up in the first chapter of OoP. Don't worry, I missed it too. In case you don't know, Lily and Petunia's maiden name was Evans. It's probably not a coincidence that JKR choose this name for Mark also.
Welcome to the Forum!
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 8, 2003 12:41 pm (#80 of 644)
Schoff,
Thanks for the tips, as for the coincidence of Mark's last name, I don't believe that JKR allows coincidences...
FL
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 12:47 pm (#81 of 644)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 1:48 pm
You also might want to check out some of the discussions in the forum annex--especially about Mark.
I can't do the link, but the address is:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
(an older forum, pre-pub150, with not much on it is located at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
EDIT: Evidently, I *can* do the link, just by typing it in!
Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2003 5:05 pm (#82 of 644)
I think the link on the annex about Mark Evans was "Recurring Names" wasn't it?
And I missed the Mark Evans reference when I read it the first time, too. Heard it here on the Forum first! Just goes to show, 250-or-so heads are better than one!
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 5:09 pm (#83 of 644)
No kidding, Madam Pince! And yes, you're right. I'm pretty sure the thread was "Recurring Names."
Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 10:52 pm (#84 of 644)
I agree with those that believe Snape does try to get Harry expelled, especially at first, before the Order was re-activated. He has his reason for resenting Harry (both unjustified and justified. Harry doesn't exactly try to show Snape any respect.) In CoS, I believe Snape would have expelled any of his House (except Draco) who had done similar actions. In a way, DD (with McGonnagal)shielded Harry from the trouble he likely should have gotten from the car incident. Snape sees Harry getting away with things (as James did), and that understandibly causes resentment.
However, now that Volde's back, I don't think Snape would allow Harry's expulsion from Hogwarts (if he could).
Harry, especially in OoP, has been quite ungrateful. Heck, Snape saved his life. He is certainly not to blame for Sirius's death. If anyone could have prevented it, it is Harry. And I think, deep down, he knows this. If he had gone to Snape with the vision, Snape could have contacted Sirius and found out he was in no danger. I hope Harry comes to realize this. His attitude towards Snape at the end was incredibly immature, and as unfair as he often accuses Snape of being.
schoff - Sep 8, 2003 11:02 pm (#85 of 644)
Edited by Sep 9, 2003 12:03 am
It took me quite a while to figure out why Harry was mad at Snape for Sirius' death. Is it because Snape kept goading Sirius about his inability to actively help the Order, thereby making Sirius more apt to leave when Harry left to "save" him?
I'll also admit, I was very confused that Harry (or even Hermione) didn't think of Snape when he found out McGonnagal wasn't at Hogwarts. That seemed out of character to me.
Slytherin Prefect - Sep 9, 2003 2:07 am (#86 of 644)
I read that about 25% of the wizarding population is pureblood. Well, Slytherin House is 25% of Hogwarts, so maybe Volde was a unique case.
That's what I get for avoiding this thread so long, I miss something like this.
Let's say this 25% figure is accurate. Anthropology tells us that as human population increases, the 'straightness' of bloodlines decreases. So, rather than say perhaps a 5% margin on this statistic, which would be appropriate, that 5% can only apply on the lesser side, so our actual representation of the population would be approximately 20%-28% or so. Let's play Devil's Advocate and say that 28% of the wizarding population is pure-blood.
Slytherin representing 25% of the school sounds pretty accurate, and in theory should be the case without error (assuming a number of students divisible by four every year, that is).
Don't forget, however, that pure-blood wizards show up frequently in other houses as well... The Weasleys have all been Gryffindors. Neville is a Gryffindor. Seamus is a Gryffindor... Susan Bones is a Hufflepuff...
I would venture a guess that no less than 3 of the 25 percent that each house takes is a pure-blood witch or wizard. Playing Devil's Advocate again, we'll say 3, making 9% of the school pure-blooded and either Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw.
Going by this logic, we can simply subtract 9 from 28 and get 19. That means that, at best, that means that the rest of the pure-blooded population of Hogwarts (19% of the school's population, at best) belongs to Slytherin. However, Slytherin houses 25% of the school.
Which means that no less than 6% of Slytherin's take of the school, or 6/25, approximately ONE FOURTH the Slytherin house, is not pure-blooded.
They apparently are the folk who will "use any means to achieve their ends." ^_^
Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 2:33 am (#87 of 644)
Good point, SP! I wonder how those non-pure students deal with the attitudes of people like Malfoy. Are they afraid of him? Given the Slytherin attitude (as presented so far), I'm suprised Draco hasn't gotten his ferret-butt kicked yet. Still, perhaps they are a silent minority, who keep to themselves and don't participate in some of the more repugnant of Slytherin's actions.
I don't know if Hermionie's and Harry's failure to think of Snape was so much 'out of character'. Neither of them trust him, or really think of him as an ally. The wise, correct thing to do would be contact Snape, but I think it is consistent that they overlooked him.
Weeny Owl - Sep 9, 2003 8:28 am (#88 of 644)
Professor Kosh - "I don't know if Hermionie's and Harry's failure to think of Snape was so much 'out of character'. Neither of them trust him, or really think of him as an ally. The wise, correct thing to do would be contact Snape, but I think it is consistent that they overlooked him. "
You make an excellent point on that, Professor Kosh. Snape hasn't exactly made himself seem trustworthy to the trio, so him popping up in their minds as someone to go to in times of trouble wouldn't occur to them.
Also, and not to make excuses for them, they are teens, and while it may seem to adult readers that a particular course of action is wise, situations will look different from their perspective.
Then too, Snape wasn't exactly hanging around with the Order having dinner and chatting. He wasn't one of the ones who removed Harry from 4 Privet Drive. Harry remembered it too late, but he did what he could after realizing his blunder.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 9, 2003 9:36 am (#89 of 644)
I have to admit, as an adult, I didn't even think about Snape and I love his character. It is difficult to see Severus as an ally with Harry.
Gina R Snape - Sep 9, 2003 12:48 pm (#90 of 644)
During my first read of OoP,I kept screaming "What about Snape, you idiot! Go to Snape!!!"
But, in truth, I don't think any of the kids would ever in a million years think of him as a resource. Hermione may not believe him to be evil, but that doesn't mean she sees him as a resource either. Plus, it's much easier to think of these things watching from the outside than when you are right in the midst of the drama/dilemma.
Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:44 pm (#91 of 644)
I also think it's things like this that increases Snape's resentment. I believe (as do many others) that Snape sees himself as labouring hard for Harry's welfare and the Order, and sees himself as terribly unappreciated. If Harry ever acted grateful for Snape's help, ever really showed respect, I think he would deflect much of Snape's resentment. I can imagine how Snape feels, unappreciated (except by DD, and you see how Snape respects DD).
Madam Pince - Sep 9, 2003 2:10 pm (#92 of 644)
Gina, I was in exactly the same frame of mind. In fact, I spent a good part of OoP feeling like 'this is an awfully long book for not much to be happening except for Harry acting like a prat.' But I kept reminding myself of Harry's age, and I have to admire JKR for writing appropriately. I know when I was that age, I probably thought I knew more than a lot of adults also. But as Prof. Kosh says, it doesn't help Harry's relationship with Snape. I think that the whole underappreciated bit is a large part of why Snape is so bitter. He's not the most pleasant guy to start with, and then add the martyr complex and he can be downright nasty at times. Some of his comments have been really beyond the pale for a professional, er..professor. I think if Harry gave him a modicum of respect, it might help a little, but I don't think Snape's ever going to become anybody's best buddy.
dracomustgo - Sep 10, 2003 4:46 am (#93 of 644)
This may have been answered already, but I have to ask. Why did Snape and Pettigrew not know about each other?
Weeny Owl - Sep 10, 2003 8:01 am (#94 of 644)
Madame Pince - "Some of his comments have been really beyond the pale for a professional, er..professor. I think if Harry gave him a modicum of respect, it might help a little, but I don't think Snape's ever going to become anybody's best buddy."
You're right... Snape's attitude show little professionalism. I think if they both gave the other a modicum of respect it would help a little.
Snape had every right to insist on being called "Professor" or "sir" during Harry's first Occlumency lesson, but at the same time, since the lessons weren't something frivolous but necessary, Snape, being the adult, could have thought less of how he was being addressed and more about the urgency of Harry learning.
He resents Harry in general, Harry's attitudes, Harry's constant rule breaking, but he's never looked at Harry as an individual whose life is beyond anything most students (or even adults) experience.
Harry doesn't see, or isn't willing to admit, that Snape has gone the extra mile. Snape has endangered himself for Harry's sake, but Harry just thumbs his nose at it all.
If Snape had done this, if Harry had done that... well, things might be different. Since they're not, Dumbledore should sit Snape and Harry down and try once again to make sure each knows that the hostilities must end on both sides because their problems with each other are totally unimportant compared to what's coming. Of course, if Dumbledore did this, it probably wouldn't help. Something major is going to have to happen before they look at each other in a different light. I just hope it isn't too late.
haymoni - Sep 10, 2003 8:29 am (#95 of 644)
If this has been discussed, pardon my laziness at reading 94 previous postings.
Snape says "Yes, that is my job" when Harry confronts him as the one who finds out what Voldemort is doing. I took this to mean that Snape is pretending to be a Death Eater. I am assuming he is using Occlumency to block any attempt by Voldemort to access his thoughts.
Snape has to pretend he hates Harry and Neville (since the Longbottoms were Aurors) especially in front of Draco, so that Lucius can be assured that Snape is actually on their side.
His comments to Crabbe (it could have been Goyle - what's the difference?) to loosen his hold on Neville's neck are spoken in such a manner that he is able to help Neville, but not blow his cover.
Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape DID understand Harry's comments about Padfoot and that Snape contacted Sirius. He also told Harry that he thought Snape had gotten over his hatred of James.
I am hoping that Harry accepts Snape's double life and uses it to his advantage.
Olivia Wood - Sep 10, 2003 5:45 pm (#96 of 644)
Does he tell Harry he thinks Snape had gotten over his hatred of James? I don't remember that part....?
While I know that Snape and Harry's relationship is far from perfect, am I the only one who was impressed with the relative level of maturity Snape was showing in OoP concerning Harry? Apart from the Pensieve incident, of course, I thought they were getting along fine, making lots of progress. Snape complimented Harry not once, but twice! Doesn't that mean anything?
Gina R Snape - Sep 10, 2003 6:13 pm (#97 of 644)
Yeah, I noticed that too. I think there was a lot more than just "immaturity" to Snape giving up on Harry's Occlumency lessons.
Sly Girl - Sep 10, 2003 7:44 pm (#98 of 644)
Olivia (she of the funny avatars): "I thought they were getting along fine, making lots of progress. Snape complimented Harry not once, but twice! Doesn't that mean anything? "
Yeah, but from Harry's perspective of 5 years of being persucuted by Snape in almost every way, shape and form, two compliments is like two cups of water on a forest fire. It's a start but a terribly long way away from getting anywhere.
Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 9:50 pm (#99 of 644)
Gina: I don't think Snape's reaction to the pensieve incident was 'immaturity'. Harry violated his privacy, and experienced one of Snape's most humiliating memories. I think most normal people, let alone one with Snape's personalities, would have been highly offended and react somewhat similarly. Did Harry ever try to back to Snape and apologize? No. I'm not sure if you are implying something sinister about Snape's motives in refusing to further teach Harry, but if so, then I think that may be mistaken
molga parrot - Sep 11, 2003 1:35 am (#100 of 644)
Looking at Snape's memories was a rotten thing to do, like reading someone's private diary. Harry deserves a slap for that, if you ask me.
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Gina R Snape - Sep 11, 2003 12:10 pm (#101 of 644)
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think I just wasn't clear when I typed what I did.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Snape left the room, and in essence trusted that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong. When he came back, he was horrified to find his memories being violated. And I would wager a bet that Severus Snape has had his personal space, thoughts, and other things violated throughout his life. I'm sure he does not usually trust to leave his memories in a Pensieve unattended. But how much worse to find that it was Harry in the Pensieve...
Others have argued that it was immature of him to stop the Occlumency lessons as a result of this transgression of Harry's. But I'm saying I don't think that's the case. There are much deeper issues here, one being the reason I just stated above. Harry owes him a huge apology. But unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get to see that happen. The only way I could see, is if Snape explains to Dumbledore what happened, and Dumbledore has a chat with Harry about it. But, at this point, I think it's too late as it will have been a while since it passed, and for us, a whole 'nother book.
Lisaren - Sep 11, 2003 12:18 pm (#102 of 644)
Yes, Harry owes Snape an apology for violating Snape's memories, but Snape is the adult here. I do not believe his treatment of Harry and Nevile has anything to do with a cover story. He could simply not favor them rather than try to humiliate them at every chance. Harry owes Snape ONE apology (yes a VERY big one). Snape owes Harry an apology for every 0 in potions because he refused to accept Harry's, for every comment about how arrogant he is (Harry is not his father), for every comment about the celebrity (he does not like being a celebrity and does not need Snape to bring it up), for the dropped sample of potion he did turn in. In other words, Snape is way ahead in the owes apologies catagory and Harry's one major mistake does not cancel out those actions.
Olivia Wood - Sep 11, 2003 5:58 pm (#103 of 644)
I think it depends how you define 'adult'. I know plenty of so called 'adults' who are less mature than my 11 year old sister. Does age really mean that much? Especially in a world where people live to 200?
Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2003 6:59 pm (#104 of 644)
Edited Sep 11, 2003 7:59 pm
Lisaren - "Yes, Harry owes Snape an apology for violating Snape's memories, but Snape is the adult here. I do not believe his treatment of Harry and Nevile has anything to do with a cover story. He could simply not favor them rather than try to humiliate them at every chance. Harry owes Snape ONE apology (yes a VERY big one). Snape owes Harry an apology for every 0 in potions because he refused to accept Harry's, for every comment about how arrogant he is (Harry is not his father), for every comment about the celebrity (he does not like being a celebrity and does not need Snape to bring it up), for the dropped sample of potion he did turn in. In other words, Snape is way ahead in the owes apologies catagory and Harry's one major mistake does not cancel out those actions."
Yes, Harry does indeed owe Snape one gigantic apology, but as you pointed out, Snape is hardly innocent. It began from the first Potions lesson and has only gotten worse since. If it were only Harry Snape liked humiliating, I could see how it's part of the overall plan, but the way he has treated Neville, and his nasty comment to Hermione about her teeth, and a myriad of other things he's done certainly seem to show his issues. Even during the first Occlumency lesson, he seemed (at least to me) to get a kick out of the bad memories of Harry's he saw.
Olivia Wood - "I think it depends how you define 'adult'. I know plenty of so called 'adults' who are less mature than my 11 year old sister. Does age really mean that much? Especially in a world where people live to 200?"
Granted we don't know much about Snape's life, but since he's a spy for the Order, he should have been able to at least pretend to be the adult and continued the Occlumency lessons... after Harry groveled a bit, of course. Harry had absolutely no right in sneaking a peak at Snape's most private memories, granted, but Snape KNEW the dangers if Harry didn't learn to control his mind.
By the way... just what were the compliments I've seen mentioned? The only comment I can find that is remotely complimentary is where Snape said something to Harry about it not being a bad first try. Of course, he then went on to castigate Harry in every way possible.
S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 10:00 pm (#105 of 644)
You know, people keep pointing out the two complements that Snape gave Harry during the Occlumency lessons, and I've been thinking about why. Someone mentioned that they thought Snape got quite a kick out of seeing Harry's bad memories. I think Snape was starting to see a bit of his own life reflected in Harry's childhood and was starting to identify with him a little. I think this may be the reason that he was willing to leave Harry in his office with a pensieve full of his private memories and why he was so very upset when he found Harry viewing those memories....
Lisaren - Sep 12, 2003 4:46 am (#106 of 644)
Snape is a Potions Master, a Head of House, and a spy for the Order. He should have enough respect for his positions, if not enough maturity by the age of 35 - 37 to act a responsible adult and not humiliate the students because of his own issues. Harry can not be blamed for acting the child - he is one. Snape can and should be pointed out to be inappropriately childish in his behavior (except in finding his memories violated).
fidelio - Sep 12, 2003 5:13 am (#107 of 644)
I suspect he got it from DD. In that conversation with Harry at the end, I got the impression he knew the Occlumency lessons had fallen apart, and he more than likely found that out from Snape [and what a painful conversation that must have been, with Snape admitting he'd dropped the ball there].
Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2003 7:52 am (#108 of 644)
Edited Sep 12, 2003 8:53 am
In GoF during a Potions lesson, Snape said something to Hermione about while her social life might be fascinating, not to discuss it in his class and took ten points from Gryffindor. He then saw the article in "Witch Weekly" about Harry's "heartbreak" where Rita Skeeter skewers Hermione about Krum and Harry. Snape, of course, mentioned the article outloud.
He went way too far, though, when he read the article to the entire class (and deducted another ten points from Gryffiindor).
Mentioning the article and deducting the first ten points is understandable, and even deducting another ten points for reading an article during class is classic Snape, but to read the article outloud is just brutish behavior.
Granted, Snape thought Harry was stealing ingredients so that made him incredibly angry, but instead of humiliating Harry, he could have acted as a Potions Master and Head of House should and either confronted Harry privately or gone to Dumbledore.
Harry should apologize for the Pensieve incident, granted, but to our knowledge, Snape never said anything to Harry after Barty Crouch Jr.'s confession about being the one stealing the boomslang skin. True, Dobby stole the gillyweed and Hermione the boomslang skin two years previously, but Crouch Jr. said he'd been the one in Snape's office, yet Snape never said a thing to Harry. He wouldn't even have had to apologize exactly, but could have said something Snape-esque about how he realized where the boomslang skin had gone but still wondered about the gillyweed. Harry could have explained that a house-elf stole it and wouldn't have had to mention Dobby. I doubt if Dumbledore would sack Dobby because of that, so the entire thing would have been straightened out.
Lady Margot - Sep 12, 2003 1:20 pm (#109 of 644)
Does anyone really think that by GoF any apologies (insincere or not) from Harry would have been accepted by Snape? Or Harry? If anything was going to be done about this relationship (or lack thereof) it should have happened long before this. Dumbledore should have had a few words with Snape about his treatment of his students around the first book. By the time of the tournament attitudes had already hardened on both sides. As for any apology now - any change in behaviors on Snape's part would be noted and reported (I'm betting Draco isn't the only one with parents who are in Voldie's group). His attitude towards Potter is well known throughout the school. Any show of understanding or even indifference would be considered odd enough that Voldie might go hunting for what's changed - and there goes the Order's spy up in smoke. And possibly result in Snape's being tortured (to see if he's acting under Imperious and therefore a threat to Voldie and company) or to his death (which I suspect will occur in either the next book or the last book because of something Harry does or doesn't do). My concern is that if that happens how will Harry react? Especially if it is partially his fault. Will he care? Right now - I don't think so. And that puts him on the path to being just like Snape - a road I'm sure supporters of Harry don't want him to take. Yes Harry's a kid - but this is war. There's more at stake than his need for revenge or validation of his emotions. Yes Snape should be more mature - but someone should have beat that into long before this. There are so many missed opportunities here for someone to have intervened - but no one did. So ... what now? Margot
Pisceswicca - Sep 12, 2003 4:31 pm (#110 of 644)
Mollis, I also like the idea that Snape was in love with Lily and because of that he betrayed Voldemort. I think that would make for a good reason. I'm also sure that there are many others that would make for good reasons too, but this one is a good one.
Kelly Judge - Sep 12, 2003 1:42 pm (#111 of 644)
Florence & Snape theory
I know that this is a discussion that already has a thread but I'm going to try and bring a few theories together and wasn't sure where to post this...
I believe that when Bertha is seen in the pensive in GoF that it is Snape that she saw kissing Florence. He hexes Bertha as a warning not to tell anybody for fear of teasing from James et al but Bertha does inform Dumbledore. Florence may have been attracted to Snape's talent towards the dark arts.
Now what if Snape and Florence, unknowing to everybody, marry (I am sure I have seen a question with regards to teachers being married and that spouses are relevant in later books) and together they enter the services of Voldemort.
Something big must of happened to return Snape to the good side and I believe that something may of happened to his wife, Florence and Snape was striken with grief and returned to the fold. Dumbledore would have known of his relationship due to the revelation by Bertha and this is why he is so convinced that Snape no longer supports Voldemort.
It may also support why Snape is so desperate for the DADA job as he has lost a loved one and wants others to be prepared for what may come.
I know that it is a lot of if's and but's but it seems to make sense, I think....
Olivia Wood - Sep 13, 2003 6:36 am (#112 of 644)
How would getting the DADA position help Snape prepare? He's the one that's going to be teaching it...
I just can't see Snape kissing someone behind the greenhouses, and if he was going to hex her it probably would have been something a lot more lethal, or a Memory Charm or something.
From what we know about them, I think it sounds like something James (because he didn't want Lily to find out) or Sirius (because he was just being a jerk) would do.
Gina R Snape - Sep 13, 2003 2:15 pm (#113 of 644)
Well, Kelly, I don't necessarily agree with your reasons why he left Voldemort. But I have always thought it was Snape who hexed Bertha. It just seems like something he would do as a teenager. And, not for nothing, but I do think there is a reason why he knows to find the kids in GoF making out in the rose bushes
Grant the Great - Sep 14, 2003 7:55 pm (#114 of 644)
Sorry this reply took so long. In reply to Prof. Kosh (I think it was him/her), yes, my theory did require Snape to do something terrible to James. This helps solidify the thought that Snape isn't all good (JKR: don't feel too sorry for Snape), and it also redeems James (which, if that doesn't happen, I'll hate JKR forever!).
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 16, 2003 9:35 am (#115 of 644)
Yes Pisceswicca, but then why did Snape (in The Order of the Phoenix)refer to Lily as a "mudblood"? That is hardly the attitude one shows to the person he/she is in love with, right?
I don't think Snape having been in love with Lily is impossible,though, him calling her a mudblood could just have been due to his fury and humiliation at the moment. Nevertheless, I don't think he was in love with her, I don't know, maybe he risked his life for someone good, or something! Just an idea.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 16, 2003 9:42 am (#116 of 644)
No, Gina R.Snape, I don't completely agree. If Snape saved Harry's life I don't think he'd think "Oh, that Snape thought I was too stupid or useless or whatever to protect my own life". He doesn't like Snape, that's clear to all of us, but on the other hand Harry isn't made of stone,either -in the Order of the Phoenix he says that he felt sorry for him when he was a child (he says this to Black and Lupin). So I don't think he'd get mad at Snape saving his life, he wasn't mad in the first book, was he? Of course, alot has happened between them in the Philosopher's Stone and the Order of the Phoenix. So maybe Harry would be confused, but this isn't a very satisfying answer, because he got over his confusion in the first book, I think. So, he could be confused, that depends on the caliber of Snape's action to save Harry, o rmaybe he wouldn't be confused at all. Grateful?, probably, but of course, he might not show it. I for one like to think that some sort of understanding bond will unite them, in the sixth or seventh book-maybe in the sixth book, and grow stronger in the seventh.
Weeny Owl - Sep 16, 2003 7:29 pm (#117 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "I for one like to think that some sort of understanding bond will unite them, in the sixth or seventh book-maybe in the sixth book, and grow stronger in the seventh."
I agree with you. I'd like to see, if not a respectful relationship on both sides, then at least a non-hostile one.
I was rereading GoF, and I know this is completely and totally ridiculous, but at one point Harry thinks something along the lines of, "Snape would let us play in class about as soon as he'd adopt me."
If he ever does let them play in class, then maybe Snape would adopt him.
Yes, I know, it's silly and ridiculous, and knowing those two clashing personalities would never happen, but a girl can dream.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 17, 2003 7:09 am (#118 of 644)
Hehe Weeny Owl, I'd like to see that happen as well! But I think it's just wishful thinking, because during the summer he's got to go to the Dursleys- now we know he's sent there because he's safe there (that's why they didn't want him going to the Burrow in GoF)...
But I've got my mind on something that's been nagging me abit, maybe I've overlooked something, I don't know, I hope someone can explain this to me! : in GoF, Voldermort is talking to the Death Eaters and he says which one's are missing (Lestrange marriage, etc), and then he says that one escaped (Karkaroff, or whatever the headmaster of Durmstrang's name is!, can't recall now), and that he'll pay dearly, then he says that another one has left them forever and that he, of course, will be killed- he's talking about my dear Snape, no doubt.
NOW... Lucius Malfoy MUST know that Snape was a Death Eater, and that he left of his own accord (once you're a Death Eater you stay one and if you go then you're not loyal to the "Dark Lord"), so fine, L.Malfoy knows that Snape isn't working for the bad guy anymore (he doesn't know that he's working for the good one either, but having left Voldermort's circle willingly is a 'crime' to Voldermort). So how come Draco Malfoy is so chummy with Snape? How come "Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of him" (Umbridge says this to Snape towards the end of the Order of the Phoenix), knowing that he's left the Dark Lord's side of his own free will? I don't think it's a front (the one putting up a front is Snape).
So what's the deal? I can't imagine J.K Rowling having made a mistake, she's done everything so meticulously and carefully that I discard this possibility completeley. Can someone explain this?
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 17, 2003 7:16 am (#119 of 644)
Why does this seem like the sort of detail that is going to "bite us in the arse" later on in the series? It's an excellent point, and how else would Snape have known that Sirius was recognized on the platform by Malfoy (Jr. & Sr.)?
fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 7:29 am (#120 of 644)
We've argued about who Voldilocks was talking about there extensively, debating, considering, and calculating with great fervor, and I think the conclusion was that the "one who had left" might very well be Karkaroff--he was known to have ratted out some of his fellow DEs--remember the hearing Harry saw in DD's pensieve? Snape was spying, but I believe that this was not general knowledge--it was information reserved for the senior members of the Dept of Magical Law Enforcement, and the Wizengamot, if that's the council DD meant when he said Snape had been cleared by the council. [DD's not likely to have let them reveal Snape's activities, as, judging by what happened to the Longbottoms, he'd be in mortal peril if his work were known]. The 'most faithful servant' was apparently meant to be Barty Crouch jr. However, since not all DEs knew each other, and since Barty was still presumed dead by most of the WW, it's possible that some DEs may imagine that this was in fact Snape, who's known by most to be at Hogwarts. The 'coward' could be a reference to Karkaroff, but so could the 'one who has left me forever'. We think of Karkaroff as a coward, but Voldilocks may have had someone else in mind--there's some speculation that the coward could even be a Regulus Black, who didn't die, as Sirius and the rest of the family thought. Based on the evidence we have, which can be interpreted in more than one way, it's entirely possible that Snape's cover has never been blown, and that Lucius Malfoy, as well as any other DEs who knew that Snape was one of their number, are still under the impression that he has not wavered from the true faith, and is boring from within at Hogwarts. It has even been suggested that the task DD sent Snape out to perform at the end of GoF, was to take a time-turner and Apparate [once he'd left Hogwarts grounds] to the graveyard for Voldilock's reappearance. In other words, we still don't know, for sure, from JKR's own pen, what's up with Snape & Voldy. We're just speculating.
Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2003 8:28 am (#121 of 644)
In GoF when Snape was showing Fudge his Dark Mark, he did say something to the effect that Karkaroff had betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold.
While Karkaroff's actions can definitely appear to be cowardly, the fact that he was naming names at the Ministry seems to be something Voldie would kill someone for.
I've always liked that theory, and since Snape survived through the fifth book, it would make sense that he wouldn't be the one who would die. We don't know what Karkaroff's fate is yet, and since he ran he may be difficult to find, but Voldie & Company know where Snape is.
haymoni - Sep 17, 2003 12:01 pm (#122 of 644)
I think Snape uses Occlumency when he has to deal with Voldemort. When DD asks him at the end of GOF, "you know what I must ask you to do", I thought he wanted Snape to go to Voldemort and tell him that he truly was faithful. I don't think Voldemort would have killed him. He can't risk killing off Death Eaters when he needs numbers. I doubt he killed Avery for giving the wrong info. What's a little bit of torture?
Snape tells Harry that those well practiced in Occlumency can utter falsehoods while in the presence of Voldemort - I think he was tooting his own horn.
Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2003 2:46 pm (#123 of 644)
haymoni - "Snape tells Harry that those well practiced in Occlumency can utter falsehoods while in the presence of Voldemort - I think he was tooting his own horn. "
I think you're right about this. I don't see Snape surviving for any length of time in Voldie's presence otherwise.
Maollelujah - Sep 17, 2003 6:34 pm (#124 of 644)
I have a feeling the moment Voldermort finds Karkaroff is the beginning of Snape's downfall, Karkaroff is the only person who knows that Snape is a spy that isn't in the Order and we all know that Karkaroff will squeal like a little pig to save his own life.
Anybody else have this same feeling?
Viola Intonada - Sep 17, 2003 7:06 pm (#125 of 644)
I just can't accept that Snape is spying directly on Voldie. I am still convinced that "one has left me forever" was Snape. Voldie was in direct contact with Prof. Quirrell and I don't think that Snape ever "helped" Quirrell in any way, when Snape and Quirrell were in the woods "talking" I don't think Snape was carrying on a conversation about how he is devoted to Voldemort.
I am very curious about Lucius's and Snape's relationship, and as to why they are still so chummy. Lucius knows that DD trusts Snape, and he knows that DD is a powerful enough wizard that Snape would not be able to pull the wool over his eyes.
So many things to find out, and so few books left to reveal them!
popkin - Sep 17, 2003 7:28 pm (#126 of 644)
I have suspected that the "one has left me forever" is Ludo Bagman, because of his need to disappear from the goblins. I don't think he'd get any cover from Voldemort in this regard, and might even be punished for letting his gambling habit get in the way of his being a reliable Death Eather. Perhaps Snape was there in the circle and was one of those Voldemort passed in silence.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 18, 2003 9:40 am (#127 of 644)
No, I don't think Ludo Bagman is the one that has left them forever. He wasn't a Death Eater, not that we know of, of course, which means that maybe he is, you know, cause there's no proof that he ISN'T. But still, I don't think he is one, it's just a feeling that I have
Wait wait wait..... I just thought of something! When Snape suspects Quirrell and confronts him, Voldermort was there to hear it! He knows that Snape is on the good side, and so Voldermort must have been refering to Snape either when he said that there was one who betrayed them and would pay, or that there was one that had left them forever and that would be killed (I suspect this last one to be Snape, Karkaroff the other,but the point is that he's one of them, I'm sure of it).
And one other thing, if Snape is a spy for the dark side, how come he didn't go to the graveyard in the end of GoF? He should have, because all death eaters that weren't in Azkaban and that weren't running away from Voldermont went- if Snape has left them he's not about to show it to them all just like that, he would have gone to the graveyard, right?
Now that I put these two things together, the whole thing leads me to believe that Snape is NOT a spy for the Dark Side, and that he's doing something else. Snape is the most mysterious character of them all (Dumbledore is runner up).
I could, of course, be wrong, I just don't think that we'll rest until we find out, we'll always be guessing. But this is good, because once you all read this and show me if I'm making mistakes,or add or discard things to my theory, etc, we can narrow it down to fewer and fewere possibilites until we come up with something that we can all agree on,right?
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 9:46 am (#128 of 644)
We don't know if Snape was at the graveyard or not--it doesn't say he was, or that he wasn't, in GoF--there were several Death Eaters Voldilocks didn't name, they were masked, and not all of them spoke. So, as far as this goes, we don't know for sure.
As far as his conversations with Quirrell--the part that Harry overheard is somewhat ambiguous--go back and read that part of PS/SS again, and you'll see what I mean. It could be interpreted to mean that Snape want Quirrell to help HIM steal the Stone--Harry certainly thought it did. In the last scene, Quirrell knew that Snape had stopped his attempt to hex Harry's broom, but not why. He also knew that Snape was under suspicion--but nowhere does he plainly say that he knows Snape is no longer faithful to Voldilocks. It's possible, given what's in the text, that Snape could claim he was trying to steal the Stone in the hope that Voldilocks might be able to use it, and that he was unaware of Voldilocks' presence on the back of Quirrell's head--although it might be risky to complain "My lord, if only you'd told me what you were trying to do!" He could even get out of stopping the hex on the broomstick by claiming he thought it prudent to keep Harry alive for future study. Since Voldilocks' younger self in CoS wanted to know more about Harry, and Voldilocks was still collecting information about him in GoF and [apparently] OotP, this just might fly. I don't know that Voldilocks would buy this completely, but I think Snape could argue a good case.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 18, 2003 10:01 am (#129 of 644)
Edited Sep 18, 2003 11:03 am
Yes, what you're saying DOES make sense, but there's still one important fact- Dumbledore trusts Snape (this isn't me playing my last card,eh! It's just something that's always been there, beyond the speculations and suggestions). Dumbledore is an Occlumens, right?We know this because he would have tought Harry Occlumency but given the circumstances he couldnt. Well, there's the fact that Snape is a very good one too, and that he can lie if he wants to Dumbledore and he wouldn't notice. But Dumbledore sees through everyone,right? I trust in Dumbledore, I just think it difficult to belive that he doesn't know everything about his staff and students. I just can't see him making that kind of a mistake.
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 10:27 am (#130 of 644)
Rose Marie, what I see going on is that Snape is playing on DD's side--but that he hasn't blown his cover with Voldy and the DEs. There were other DEs, such as Lucius Malfoy, who have done their best to appear respectable and regretful over their connection with Voldilocks since his first encounter with Harry. To these people, Snape could seem to be one of them--doing his best to pass safely among old opponents, and waiting for the return of the Dork Lard. As far as Voldilocks himself--Snape has not necessarily lost all credibility with him, based on what's in the books. He may or may not be dealing with the Auld Serpent closely. We just don't know. He certainly seems to be doing so for the order, and I think he's made some very earnest efforts to convince DD that he's reliable.
DD seems very determined not to explain to Harry why he trusts Snape. This could be an effort to protect Snape's privacy. It could also be an effort to keep Snape safe for undercover intelligence work. He could even be hiding spells that have been used to bind Snape to him, so that he can't betray DD and the Order of the Phoenix, or Harry. I speculated at one point that a Fidelius charm, or something similar, may have been used on Snape, to conceal his work for DD from Voldilocks. I do think that if Snape has been bound to DD by a spell, he was willing to undergo this, and may even have suggested it as a proof of his sincerity. To sum up: I think we have been given no definite reason why Snape can't go back among the DEs with a fair degree of safety, and even deal with Voldilocks himself. I also believe that DD is probably safe in trusting Snape, allowing for errors arising from the flaws of human nature--like Snape's problems with Harry in Occlumency lessons. I could be wrong about both--but given what's in the books so far, my guesses are safe, at least until JKR tells us something that pulls the rug out from under me!
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 10:43 am (#131 of 644)
I don't debate that Snape is now on the side of the angels.
However, as far as contacts between Snape and the DEs, in OotP, Sirius taunts Snape with being Lucius Malfoy's lapdog, and Umbridge [in the scene in her office where he refuses to produce more veritaserum for her] complains that Lucius Malfoy had always said Snape was very helpful--implying that Lucius was wrong about Snape's helpfulness. The fact that we don't see or hear of the DEs contacting Snape doesn't mean it isn't happening. Based on the two remarks I've mentioned above, there is some sort of contact between Snape and the elder Malfoy--and the elder Malfoy thinks Snape is on his side.
LilyP - Sep 18, 2003 12:34 pm (#132 of 644)
"how come he didn't go to the graveyard in the end of GoF? He should have, because all death eaters that weren't in Azkaban and that weren't running away from Voldermont went- if Snape has left them he's not about to show it to them all just like that, he would have gone to the graveyard, right?"
This part has bothered me for a while, too. The only thing I could think of is that if Snape was with everyone else at the stadium, he was on Hogwarts grounds, and could not apparate. Therefore, he would need to sneak away from the grounds before he could apparate. That could be his reasoning and/or excuse for Voldi for not coming right away. I assumed that is where he went after DD sent him away from the hospital wing at he end of GoF. Then with his gifts in occlumency, he would be able to hide what he was really doing.
I also wonder about the pensieve. If you remove a memory into your pensieve, then a legilement would not be able to read/see it, right??
Gina R Snape - Sep 18, 2003 3:36 pm (#133 of 644)
Edited Sep 18, 2003 5:06 pm
We know frustratingly little about the mechanics of the Pensieve and the human mind.
But there is a way for Snape to stay under Dumbledore's protection and convince the Dark Lord that he is a true death eater. It's mostly been covered. But, in short, in PS/SS, Voldemort did not show himself. So, Snape could easily give any number of excuses as to why he ws preventing Quirrell from obtaining the stone. Protecting Potter in the Quidditch pitch could easily have been seen as Snape wanting to "save" Potter for Voldemort's pleasure to kill upon his return.
In CoS, Voldemort wasn't working out in the open. Snape could not have known the chamber was his doing. Furthermore, he might not have known the Tom Riddle history. Other DEs don't seem to know.
In GoF, Snape could very easily have said he could not disapparate off the Hogwarts grounds, and went and prostrated himself before the Dark Lord at the earliest moment. Also, Crouch Jr. was disguised as Moody, and so Snape couldn't have known that he was helping to bring Voldemort back. There's a very easy example of "but my Lord, had you told me, I could have helped..."
Finally, I believe Snape going to Dumbledore to become a spy was a double-edged plan to begin with. Snape went to Dumbledore for protection, yes, and because he switched sides. (I believe it has to do with the prophecy, but I started a thread about that subject). I also think Voldemort would have been quite pleased to have one of his death eaters inside Hogwarts castle. That would be the best explanation of all, the Snape could feign support of Dumbledore for Voldemort's benefit, and be none the wiser of the true nature of the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore.
Yes, my darling Severus could be the sneakiest, cleverest, most cunning of them all pulling that off. ::swoon::
EDIT: I just realised I'd completely forgotten there is a thread "Does Voldemort Know about Snape" so I'm not sure we should continue discussing this specifically on the Snape thread.
Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2003 7:31 pm (#134 of 644)
Snape is definitely an enigma. He seems to be good guy at one point and then possibly a bad guy, but again a good guy. He never quite reacts exactly as expected in many instances. He could be so many things, but the only thing he is consistently is a mystery.
Cconsidering his relationship to Lucius Malfoy, any number of people could probably arrange an "accident" for dear Severus if necessary, so it seems to me that he was either at the rebirthing or was the one who would pay. He lasted through the fifth book, after all.
At the end of GoF, Snape is at the feast and looks at Harry for a while. Snape's expression is difficult to read although he still has his usual sour look. Too bad we couldn't get inside his head at that moment to see exactly what he was thinking.
It does seem to be typical Snape that when he next encounters Harry after the entire DoM scene, he seems jubilant that he can take points away from Gryffindor because of Harry.
I swear that after the seventh book, JKR needs to write an entire book about Snape.
Madame Librarian - Sep 19, 2003 4:17 am (#135 of 644)
It just struck me that the two people who are given huge responsibilty to protect Harry are two people who truly seem to detest him the most--Snape and Petunia!
Anyone think there's a connection somehow? Has this been dealt with on an earlier thread? I have a vague recollection of someone putting Snape and Petunia in a relationship much earlier on, but can't quite dredge up the details. That's not exactly what I mean here, though. I'm thinking more some sort of life-debt thing to the WW or DD where they're bound to Harry's safety in order to protect them from punishment by the WW or revenge by V.
Snape and Petunia. Petunia and Snape. Hmmmm....
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2003 8:40 am (#136 of 644)
I hadn't quite thought of that before, Madame Librarian, but you sure nailed it on the head with those two protecting him yet detesting him.
There could easily be a relationship between them, albeit not a romantic one. I like your life-debt idea.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 19, 2003 1:11 pm (#137 of 644)
Snape and Petunia?, I don't think they're "related", just a coincidence that they protect and hate him at the same time. But I mean, Snape isn't the only one protecting him, there's Dumbledore, etc.. .well, they ARE the ones who hate him, but I just can't see a relationship between them.
S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 10:37 pm (#138 of 644)
As for the "coward" DE and the "one who had left forever" goes, Voldy had made a comment when he summoned the DEs about who would be too cowardly to return. I think Snape is the "coward" and he did use the 'on Hogwarts grounds' excuse to reincorporate himself into the fold. I think Karkaroff is definately the one who had left Voldy forever and will be killed since he was a known turncoat. However, I doubt that Karkaroff could offer any evidence that Snape was a spy for DD or on DD's side, so I think Severus is still relatively safe.....
popkin - Sep 20, 2003 1:35 am (#139 of 644)
This has probably been noticed a million times by now, but I just now saw it. Salazar Slytherin and Severus Snape share the initials "SS". Hmmmmmmmm.....
Madame Librarian - Sep 20, 2003 5:15 am (#140 of 644)
Rose Marie, I didn't mean a romantic relationship between Snape and Petunia, nor did I necessarily mean even a platonic one. What I meant was that perhaps they had both gotten involved in some sort of criminal action either with or without the DEs and were caught and offered this life-debt deal rather than an Azkaban sentence. In other words, I suggested a "partners in crime" sort of relationship without a need to be close or good friends. Maybe they were classmates or members of a "gang." Something like that. Or not--they could have crossed paths as defendants in their trials at the MoM or even at Azkaban.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 20, 2003 9:04 am (#141 of 644)
No, of course I didn't interpret any romantic relation, Petunia hates "that lot". But either way, I think this theory is too far fethed (sorry!). Now that I think of it, when Voldermort's giving his little speech, I think "the one who will be killed" is Karkaroff; the one who will only pay is Snape.
Maollelujah - Sep 21, 2003 7:56 pm (#142 of 644)
However, I doubt that Karkaroff could offer any evidence that Snape was a spy for DD or on DD's side, so I think Severus is still relatively safe.....
While Karkaroff might not be able to give Voldie solid evidence, he can still tell him what he heard, which will surely get Voldie thinking...
S.E. Jones - Sep 21, 2003 9:15 pm (#143 of 644)
What could he have really overheard that would give Snape away?
Maollelujah - Sep 21, 2003 9:53 pm (#144 of 644)
During his trial, he heard DD vouch that Snape had been a spy. Below is the text from GoF:
"No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. "I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."
Jesspy - Sep 21, 2003 11:54 pm (#145 of 644)
I had the thougth that Snape being nasty to Harry has had a positive outcome.
Harry was always going to be given a hard time about his past and as Dumbledore may have predicted, his future. Maybe it is possible Dumbledore has given permission to Snape to be mean to Harry. The purpose being to toughen up Harry, to beable to take unreasonable harsh critasim, make him stronger.
Harry has already had many things said about him that is very hurtful and a method of dealing with this had been developed at a young age, ie at the Dursleys. Snape is just continuing his education.
He maybe mean to Neville as he thinks Neville is actually the "one"
I do lean towards snapes hatred and cover as a spy theories more.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 22, 2003 9:49 am (#146 of 644)
If you look at Severus' past in OoP, the life he had would make anyone bitter. I don't think that Snape is "acting" mean to Harry. He has protected him and helped him, but I don't think that he cares for Harry like Sirius or DD do.
fidelio - Sep 22, 2003 10:02 am (#147 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 11:03 am
If we take one of the descriptions of Slytherins the Sorting Hat has given us, Snape was educated in a house characterized by being willing to use any means to achieve their desired ends. Therefore, if Harry Potter is the way to defeat the Dork Lard, Harry Potter shall be trained and educated to do this very thing. Snape wasn't raised to believe he had to like things to do them; if the result is important enough to him, he'll just have to accept the means.
However, he was probably in detention the day they had the little talk in the common room about being able to win more friends and influence more people if you concealed just how annoyed you were by all these annoying necessities, especially the ones that reminded you of their fathers, who used to beat you up when you were younger. In the American South, we refer to this as the "You catch more flies with molasses [or honey] than you do with vinegar" speech, and every Southern child has heard it at least once, usually after asking why they had to be nice to someone they loathed. [In fact, people who move to the South end up using it on their children, even if they grew up some place else where it was never used.]
I shall now leave you to contemplate the spectacle of Snape's reaction to this little homily.
fidelio - Sep 22, 2003 10:37 am (#148 of 644)
In fact, I'll even suggest that you contemplate the image of a young Snape being given lines to write by an exasperated teacher--Flitwick, perhaps, or Prof. SProut, or even Minerva McG: "You can catch more flies with treacle than you can with vinegar", with an extra detention, scrubbing things somewhere, when he asked "Why would I want a lot of flies?"
S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 1:54 pm (#149 of 644)
"Why would I want a lot of flies?"
Well, for potions work obviously...
Maollelujah, good point, but I still don't think this is too great a threat to Snape as Karkaroff is already considered by his side to be a traitor and so Voldy may not believe him, even if he gives him the chance to speak. He may prefer to believe Snape, who as a skills Occulemens could probably hide the fact that this is true. On the other hand, that could also be the reason that JK showed Karkaroff specifically naming Snape during his trial....Hmmm......
Maollelujah - Sep 22, 2003 4:01 pm (#150 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 5:02 pm
I don't think that Karkaroff presents any threat to Snape, until Voldie catches him. Once Voldie has Karkaroff cornered, Karkaroff will, in my estimation, squeal like a pig. He will try to save his skin and one of the things that might save him is the name of the spy among the Death Eaters.
Well that is just my guess.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think I just wasn't clear when I typed what I did.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Snape left the room, and in essence trusted that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong. When he came back, he was horrified to find his memories being violated. And I would wager a bet that Severus Snape has had his personal space, thoughts, and other things violated throughout his life. I'm sure he does not usually trust to leave his memories in a Pensieve unattended. But how much worse to find that it was Harry in the Pensieve...
Others have argued that it was immature of him to stop the Occlumency lessons as a result of this transgression of Harry's. But I'm saying I don't think that's the case. There are much deeper issues here, one being the reason I just stated above. Harry owes him a huge apology. But unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get to see that happen. The only way I could see, is if Snape explains to Dumbledore what happened, and Dumbledore has a chat with Harry about it. But, at this point, I think it's too late as it will have been a while since it passed, and for us, a whole 'nother book.
Lisaren - Sep 11, 2003 12:18 pm (#102 of 644)
Yes, Harry owes Snape an apology for violating Snape's memories, but Snape is the adult here. I do not believe his treatment of Harry and Nevile has anything to do with a cover story. He could simply not favor them rather than try to humiliate them at every chance. Harry owes Snape ONE apology (yes a VERY big one). Snape owes Harry an apology for every 0 in potions because he refused to accept Harry's, for every comment about how arrogant he is (Harry is not his father), for every comment about the celebrity (he does not like being a celebrity and does not need Snape to bring it up), for the dropped sample of potion he did turn in. In other words, Snape is way ahead in the owes apologies catagory and Harry's one major mistake does not cancel out those actions.
Olivia Wood - Sep 11, 2003 5:58 pm (#103 of 644)
I think it depends how you define 'adult'. I know plenty of so called 'adults' who are less mature than my 11 year old sister. Does age really mean that much? Especially in a world where people live to 200?
Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2003 6:59 pm (#104 of 644)
Edited Sep 11, 2003 7:59 pm
Lisaren - "Yes, Harry owes Snape an apology for violating Snape's memories, but Snape is the adult here. I do not believe his treatment of Harry and Nevile has anything to do with a cover story. He could simply not favor them rather than try to humiliate them at every chance. Harry owes Snape ONE apology (yes a VERY big one). Snape owes Harry an apology for every 0 in potions because he refused to accept Harry's, for every comment about how arrogant he is (Harry is not his father), for every comment about the celebrity (he does not like being a celebrity and does not need Snape to bring it up), for the dropped sample of potion he did turn in. In other words, Snape is way ahead in the owes apologies catagory and Harry's one major mistake does not cancel out those actions."
Yes, Harry does indeed owe Snape one gigantic apology, but as you pointed out, Snape is hardly innocent. It began from the first Potions lesson and has only gotten worse since. If it were only Harry Snape liked humiliating, I could see how it's part of the overall plan, but the way he has treated Neville, and his nasty comment to Hermione about her teeth, and a myriad of other things he's done certainly seem to show his issues. Even during the first Occlumency lesson, he seemed (at least to me) to get a kick out of the bad memories of Harry's he saw.
Olivia Wood - "I think it depends how you define 'adult'. I know plenty of so called 'adults' who are less mature than my 11 year old sister. Does age really mean that much? Especially in a world where people live to 200?"
Granted we don't know much about Snape's life, but since he's a spy for the Order, he should have been able to at least pretend to be the adult and continued the Occlumency lessons... after Harry groveled a bit, of course. Harry had absolutely no right in sneaking a peak at Snape's most private memories, granted, but Snape KNEW the dangers if Harry didn't learn to control his mind.
By the way... just what were the compliments I've seen mentioned? The only comment I can find that is remotely complimentary is where Snape said something to Harry about it not being a bad first try. Of course, he then went on to castigate Harry in every way possible.
S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 10:00 pm (#105 of 644)
You know, people keep pointing out the two complements that Snape gave Harry during the Occlumency lessons, and I've been thinking about why. Someone mentioned that they thought Snape got quite a kick out of seeing Harry's bad memories. I think Snape was starting to see a bit of his own life reflected in Harry's childhood and was starting to identify with him a little. I think this may be the reason that he was willing to leave Harry in his office with a pensieve full of his private memories and why he was so very upset when he found Harry viewing those memories....
Lisaren - Sep 12, 2003 4:46 am (#106 of 644)
Snape is a Potions Master, a Head of House, and a spy for the Order. He should have enough respect for his positions, if not enough maturity by the age of 35 - 37 to act a responsible adult and not humiliate the students because of his own issues. Harry can not be blamed for acting the child - he is one. Snape can and should be pointed out to be inappropriately childish in his behavior (except in finding his memories violated).
fidelio - Sep 12, 2003 5:13 am (#107 of 644)
I suspect he got it from DD. In that conversation with Harry at the end, I got the impression he knew the Occlumency lessons had fallen apart, and he more than likely found that out from Snape [and what a painful conversation that must have been, with Snape admitting he'd dropped the ball there].
Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2003 7:52 am (#108 of 644)
Edited Sep 12, 2003 8:53 am
In GoF during a Potions lesson, Snape said something to Hermione about while her social life might be fascinating, not to discuss it in his class and took ten points from Gryffindor. He then saw the article in "Witch Weekly" about Harry's "heartbreak" where Rita Skeeter skewers Hermione about Krum and Harry. Snape, of course, mentioned the article outloud.
He went way too far, though, when he read the article to the entire class (and deducted another ten points from Gryffiindor).
Mentioning the article and deducting the first ten points is understandable, and even deducting another ten points for reading an article during class is classic Snape, but to read the article outloud is just brutish behavior.
Granted, Snape thought Harry was stealing ingredients so that made him incredibly angry, but instead of humiliating Harry, he could have acted as a Potions Master and Head of House should and either confronted Harry privately or gone to Dumbledore.
Harry should apologize for the Pensieve incident, granted, but to our knowledge, Snape never said anything to Harry after Barty Crouch Jr.'s confession about being the one stealing the boomslang skin. True, Dobby stole the gillyweed and Hermione the boomslang skin two years previously, but Crouch Jr. said he'd been the one in Snape's office, yet Snape never said a thing to Harry. He wouldn't even have had to apologize exactly, but could have said something Snape-esque about how he realized where the boomslang skin had gone but still wondered about the gillyweed. Harry could have explained that a house-elf stole it and wouldn't have had to mention Dobby. I doubt if Dumbledore would sack Dobby because of that, so the entire thing would have been straightened out.
Lady Margot - Sep 12, 2003 1:20 pm (#109 of 644)
Does anyone really think that by GoF any apologies (insincere or not) from Harry would have been accepted by Snape? Or Harry? If anything was going to be done about this relationship (or lack thereof) it should have happened long before this. Dumbledore should have had a few words with Snape about his treatment of his students around the first book. By the time of the tournament attitudes had already hardened on both sides. As for any apology now - any change in behaviors on Snape's part would be noted and reported (I'm betting Draco isn't the only one with parents who are in Voldie's group). His attitude towards Potter is well known throughout the school. Any show of understanding or even indifference would be considered odd enough that Voldie might go hunting for what's changed - and there goes the Order's spy up in smoke. And possibly result in Snape's being tortured (to see if he's acting under Imperious and therefore a threat to Voldie and company) or to his death (which I suspect will occur in either the next book or the last book because of something Harry does or doesn't do). My concern is that if that happens how will Harry react? Especially if it is partially his fault. Will he care? Right now - I don't think so. And that puts him on the path to being just like Snape - a road I'm sure supporters of Harry don't want him to take. Yes Harry's a kid - but this is war. There's more at stake than his need for revenge or validation of his emotions. Yes Snape should be more mature - but someone should have beat that into long before this. There are so many missed opportunities here for someone to have intervened - but no one did. So ... what now? Margot
Pisceswicca - Sep 12, 2003 4:31 pm (#110 of 644)
Mollis, I also like the idea that Snape was in love with Lily and because of that he betrayed Voldemort. I think that would make for a good reason. I'm also sure that there are many others that would make for good reasons too, but this one is a good one.
Kelly Judge - Sep 12, 2003 1:42 pm (#111 of 644)
Florence & Snape theory
I know that this is a discussion that already has a thread but I'm going to try and bring a few theories together and wasn't sure where to post this...
I believe that when Bertha is seen in the pensive in GoF that it is Snape that she saw kissing Florence. He hexes Bertha as a warning not to tell anybody for fear of teasing from James et al but Bertha does inform Dumbledore. Florence may have been attracted to Snape's talent towards the dark arts.
Now what if Snape and Florence, unknowing to everybody, marry (I am sure I have seen a question with regards to teachers being married and that spouses are relevant in later books) and together they enter the services of Voldemort.
Something big must of happened to return Snape to the good side and I believe that something may of happened to his wife, Florence and Snape was striken with grief and returned to the fold. Dumbledore would have known of his relationship due to the revelation by Bertha and this is why he is so convinced that Snape no longer supports Voldemort.
It may also support why Snape is so desperate for the DADA job as he has lost a loved one and wants others to be prepared for what may come.
I know that it is a lot of if's and but's but it seems to make sense, I think....
Olivia Wood - Sep 13, 2003 6:36 am (#112 of 644)
How would getting the DADA position help Snape prepare? He's the one that's going to be teaching it...
I just can't see Snape kissing someone behind the greenhouses, and if he was going to hex her it probably would have been something a lot more lethal, or a Memory Charm or something.
From what we know about them, I think it sounds like something James (because he didn't want Lily to find out) or Sirius (because he was just being a jerk) would do.
Gina R Snape - Sep 13, 2003 2:15 pm (#113 of 644)
Well, Kelly, I don't necessarily agree with your reasons why he left Voldemort. But I have always thought it was Snape who hexed Bertha. It just seems like something he would do as a teenager. And, not for nothing, but I do think there is a reason why he knows to find the kids in GoF making out in the rose bushes
Grant the Great - Sep 14, 2003 7:55 pm (#114 of 644)
Sorry this reply took so long. In reply to Prof. Kosh (I think it was him/her), yes, my theory did require Snape to do something terrible to James. This helps solidify the thought that Snape isn't all good (JKR: don't feel too sorry for Snape), and it also redeems James (which, if that doesn't happen, I'll hate JKR forever!).
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 16, 2003 9:35 am (#115 of 644)
Yes Pisceswicca, but then why did Snape (in The Order of the Phoenix)refer to Lily as a "mudblood"? That is hardly the attitude one shows to the person he/she is in love with, right?
I don't think Snape having been in love with Lily is impossible,though, him calling her a mudblood could just have been due to his fury and humiliation at the moment. Nevertheless, I don't think he was in love with her, I don't know, maybe he risked his life for someone good, or something! Just an idea.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 16, 2003 9:42 am (#116 of 644)
No, Gina R.Snape, I don't completely agree. If Snape saved Harry's life I don't think he'd think "Oh, that Snape thought I was too stupid or useless or whatever to protect my own life". He doesn't like Snape, that's clear to all of us, but on the other hand Harry isn't made of stone,either -in the Order of the Phoenix he says that he felt sorry for him when he was a child (he says this to Black and Lupin). So I don't think he'd get mad at Snape saving his life, he wasn't mad in the first book, was he? Of course, alot has happened between them in the Philosopher's Stone and the Order of the Phoenix. So maybe Harry would be confused, but this isn't a very satisfying answer, because he got over his confusion in the first book, I think. So, he could be confused, that depends on the caliber of Snape's action to save Harry, o rmaybe he wouldn't be confused at all. Grateful?, probably, but of course, he might not show it. I for one like to think that some sort of understanding bond will unite them, in the sixth or seventh book-maybe in the sixth book, and grow stronger in the seventh.
Weeny Owl - Sep 16, 2003 7:29 pm (#117 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "I for one like to think that some sort of understanding bond will unite them, in the sixth or seventh book-maybe in the sixth book, and grow stronger in the seventh."
I agree with you. I'd like to see, if not a respectful relationship on both sides, then at least a non-hostile one.
I was rereading GoF, and I know this is completely and totally ridiculous, but at one point Harry thinks something along the lines of, "Snape would let us play in class about as soon as he'd adopt me."
If he ever does let them play in class
Yes, I know, it's silly and ridiculous, and knowing those two clashing personalities would never happen, but a girl can dream.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 17, 2003 7:09 am (#118 of 644)
Hehe Weeny Owl, I'd like to see that happen as well! But I think it's just wishful thinking, because during the summer he's got to go to the Dursleys- now we know he's sent there because he's safe there (that's why they didn't want him going to the Burrow in GoF)...
But I've got my mind on something that's been nagging me abit, maybe I've overlooked something, I don't know, I hope someone can explain this to me! : in GoF, Voldermort is talking to the Death Eaters and he says which one's are missing (Lestrange marriage, etc), and then he says that one escaped (Karkaroff, or whatever the headmaster of Durmstrang's name is!, can't recall now), and that he'll pay dearly, then he says that another one has left them forever and that he, of course, will be killed- he's talking about my dear Snape, no doubt.
NOW... Lucius Malfoy MUST know that Snape was a Death Eater, and that he left of his own accord (once you're a Death Eater you stay one and if you go then you're not loyal to the "Dark Lord"), so fine, L.Malfoy knows that Snape isn't working for the bad guy anymore (he doesn't know that he's working for the good one either, but having left Voldermort's circle willingly is a 'crime' to Voldermort). So how come Draco Malfoy is so chummy with Snape? How come "Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of him" (Umbridge says this to Snape towards the end of the Order of the Phoenix), knowing that he's left the Dark Lord's side of his own free will? I don't think it's a front (the one putting up a front is Snape).
So what's the deal? I can't imagine J.K Rowling having made a mistake, she's done everything so meticulously and carefully that I discard this possibility completeley. Can someone explain this?
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 17, 2003 7:16 am (#119 of 644)
Why does this seem like the sort of detail that is going to "bite us in the arse" later on in the series? It's an excellent point, and how else would Snape have known that Sirius was recognized on the platform by Malfoy (Jr. & Sr.)?
fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 7:29 am (#120 of 644)
We've argued about who Voldilocks was talking about there extensively, debating, considering, and calculating with great fervor, and I think the conclusion was that the "one who had left" might very well be Karkaroff--he was known to have ratted out some of his fellow DEs--remember the hearing Harry saw in DD's pensieve? Snape was spying, but I believe that this was not general knowledge--it was information reserved for the senior members of the Dept of Magical Law Enforcement, and the Wizengamot, if that's the council DD meant when he said Snape had been cleared by the council. [DD's not likely to have let them reveal Snape's activities, as, judging by what happened to the Longbottoms, he'd be in mortal peril if his work were known]. The 'most faithful servant' was apparently meant to be Barty Crouch jr. However, since not all DEs knew each other, and since Barty was still presumed dead by most of the WW, it's possible that some DEs may imagine that this was in fact Snape, who's known by most to be at Hogwarts. The 'coward' could be a reference to Karkaroff, but so could the 'one who has left me forever'. We think of Karkaroff as a coward, but Voldilocks may have had someone else in mind--there's some speculation that the coward could even be a Regulus Black, who didn't die, as Sirius and the rest of the family thought. Based on the evidence we have, which can be interpreted in more than one way, it's entirely possible that Snape's cover has never been blown, and that Lucius Malfoy, as well as any other DEs who knew that Snape was one of their number, are still under the impression that he has not wavered from the true faith, and is boring from within at Hogwarts. It has even been suggested that the task DD sent Snape out to perform at the end of GoF, was to take a time-turner and Apparate [once he'd left Hogwarts grounds] to the graveyard for Voldilock's reappearance. In other words, we still don't know, for sure, from JKR's own pen, what's up with Snape & Voldy. We're just speculating.
Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2003 8:28 am (#121 of 644)
In GoF when Snape was showing Fudge his Dark Mark, he did say something to the effect that Karkaroff had betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold.
While Karkaroff's actions can definitely appear to be cowardly, the fact that he was naming names at the Ministry seems to be something Voldie would kill someone for.
I've always liked that theory, and since Snape survived through the fifth book, it would make sense that he wouldn't be the one who would die. We don't know what Karkaroff's fate is yet, and since he ran he may be difficult to find, but Voldie & Company know where Snape is.
haymoni - Sep 17, 2003 12:01 pm (#122 of 644)
I think Snape uses Occlumency when he has to deal with Voldemort. When DD asks him at the end of GOF, "you know what I must ask you to do", I thought he wanted Snape to go to Voldemort and tell him that he truly was faithful. I don't think Voldemort would have killed him. He can't risk killing off Death Eaters when he needs numbers. I doubt he killed Avery for giving the wrong info. What's a little bit of torture?
Snape tells Harry that those well practiced in Occlumency can utter falsehoods while in the presence of Voldemort - I think he was tooting his own horn.
Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2003 2:46 pm (#123 of 644)
haymoni - "Snape tells Harry that those well practiced in Occlumency can utter falsehoods while in the presence of Voldemort - I think he was tooting his own horn. "
I think you're right about this. I don't see Snape surviving for any length of time in Voldie's presence otherwise.
Maollelujah - Sep 17, 2003 6:34 pm (#124 of 644)
I have a feeling the moment Voldermort finds Karkaroff is the beginning of Snape's downfall, Karkaroff is the only person who knows that Snape is a spy that isn't in the Order and we all know that Karkaroff will squeal like a little pig to save his own life.
Anybody else have this same feeling?
Viola Intonada - Sep 17, 2003 7:06 pm (#125 of 644)
I just can't accept that Snape is spying directly on Voldie. I am still convinced that "one has left me forever" was Snape. Voldie was in direct contact with Prof. Quirrell and I don't think that Snape ever "helped" Quirrell in any way, when Snape and Quirrell were in the woods "talking" I don't think Snape was carrying on a conversation about how he is devoted to Voldemort.
I am very curious about Lucius's and Snape's relationship, and as to why they are still so chummy. Lucius knows that DD trusts Snape, and he knows that DD is a powerful enough wizard that Snape would not be able to pull the wool over his eyes.
So many things to find out, and so few books left to reveal them!
popkin - Sep 17, 2003 7:28 pm (#126 of 644)
I have suspected that the "one has left me forever" is Ludo Bagman, because of his need to disappear from the goblins. I don't think he'd get any cover from Voldemort in this regard, and might even be punished for letting his gambling habit get in the way of his being a reliable Death Eather. Perhaps Snape was there in the circle and was one of those Voldemort passed in silence.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 18, 2003 9:40 am (#127 of 644)
No, I don't think Ludo Bagman is the one that has left them forever. He wasn't a Death Eater, not that we know of, of course, which means that maybe he is, you know, cause there's no proof that he ISN'T. But still, I don't think he is one, it's just a feeling that I have
Wait wait wait..... I just thought of something! When Snape suspects Quirrell and confronts him, Voldermort was there to hear it! He knows that Snape is on the good side, and so Voldermort must have been refering to Snape either when he said that there was one who betrayed them and would pay, or that there was one that had left them forever and that would be killed (I suspect this last one to be Snape, Karkaroff the other,but the point is that he's one of them, I'm sure of it).
And one other thing, if Snape is a spy for the dark side, how come he didn't go to the graveyard in the end of GoF? He should have, because all death eaters that weren't in Azkaban and that weren't running away from Voldermont went- if Snape has left them he's not about to show it to them all just like that, he would have gone to the graveyard, right?
Now that I put these two things together, the whole thing leads me to believe that Snape is NOT a spy for the Dark Side, and that he's doing something else. Snape is the most mysterious character of them all (Dumbledore is runner up).
I could, of course, be wrong, I just don't think that we'll rest until we find out, we'll always be guessing. But this is good, because once you all read this and show me if I'm making mistakes,or add or discard things to my theory, etc, we can narrow it down to fewer and fewere possibilites until we come up with something that we can all agree on,right?
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 9:46 am (#128 of 644)
We don't know if Snape was at the graveyard or not--it doesn't say he was, or that he wasn't, in GoF--there were several Death Eaters Voldilocks didn't name, they were masked, and not all of them spoke. So, as far as this goes, we don't know for sure.
As far as his conversations with Quirrell--the part that Harry overheard is somewhat ambiguous--go back and read that part of PS/SS again, and you'll see what I mean. It could be interpreted to mean that Snape want Quirrell to help HIM steal the Stone--Harry certainly thought it did. In the last scene, Quirrell knew that Snape had stopped his attempt to hex Harry's broom, but not why. He also knew that Snape was under suspicion--but nowhere does he plainly say that he knows Snape is no longer faithful to Voldilocks. It's possible, given what's in the text, that Snape could claim he was trying to steal the Stone in the hope that Voldilocks might be able to use it, and that he was unaware of Voldilocks' presence on the back of Quirrell's head--although it might be risky to complain "My lord, if only you'd told me what you were trying to do!" He could even get out of stopping the hex on the broomstick by claiming he thought it prudent to keep Harry alive for future study. Since Voldilocks' younger self in CoS wanted to know more about Harry, and Voldilocks was still collecting information about him in GoF and [apparently] OotP, this just might fly. I don't know that Voldilocks would buy this completely, but I think Snape could argue a good case.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 18, 2003 10:01 am (#129 of 644)
Edited Sep 18, 2003 11:03 am
Yes, what you're saying DOES make sense, but there's still one important fact- Dumbledore trusts Snape (this isn't me playing my last card,eh! It's just something that's always been there, beyond the speculations and suggestions). Dumbledore is an Occlumens, right?We know this because he would have tought Harry Occlumency but given the circumstances he couldnt. Well, there's the fact that Snape is a very good one too, and that he can lie if he wants to Dumbledore and he wouldn't notice. But Dumbledore sees through everyone,right? I trust in Dumbledore, I just think it difficult to belive that he doesn't know everything about his staff and students. I just can't see him making that kind of a mistake.
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 10:27 am (#130 of 644)
Rose Marie, what I see going on is that Snape is playing on DD's side--but that he hasn't blown his cover with Voldy and the DEs. There were other DEs, such as Lucius Malfoy, who have done their best to appear respectable and regretful over their connection with Voldilocks since his first encounter with Harry. To these people, Snape could seem to be one of them--doing his best to pass safely among old opponents, and waiting for the return of the Dork Lard. As far as Voldilocks himself--Snape has not necessarily lost all credibility with him, based on what's in the books. He may or may not be dealing with the Auld Serpent closely. We just don't know. He certainly seems to be doing so for the order, and I think he's made some very earnest efforts to convince DD that he's reliable.
DD seems very determined not to explain to Harry why he trusts Snape. This could be an effort to protect Snape's privacy. It could also be an effort to keep Snape safe for undercover intelligence work. He could even be hiding spells that have been used to bind Snape to him, so that he can't betray DD and the Order of the Phoenix, or Harry. I speculated at one point that a Fidelius charm, or something similar, may have been used on Snape, to conceal his work for DD from Voldilocks. I do think that if Snape has been bound to DD by a spell, he was willing to undergo this, and may even have suggested it as a proof of his sincerity. To sum up: I think we have been given no definite reason why Snape can't go back among the DEs with a fair degree of safety, and even deal with Voldilocks himself. I also believe that DD is probably safe in trusting Snape, allowing for errors arising from the flaws of human nature--like Snape's problems with Harry in Occlumency lessons. I could be wrong about both--but given what's in the books so far, my guesses are safe, at least until JKR tells us something that pulls the rug out from under me!
fidelio - Sep 18, 2003 10:43 am (#131 of 644)
I don't debate that Snape is now on the side of the angels.
However, as far as contacts between Snape and the DEs, in OotP, Sirius taunts Snape with being Lucius Malfoy's lapdog, and Umbridge [in the scene in her office where he refuses to produce more veritaserum for her] complains that Lucius Malfoy had always said Snape was very helpful--implying that Lucius was wrong about Snape's helpfulness. The fact that we don't see or hear of the DEs contacting Snape doesn't mean it isn't happening. Based on the two remarks I've mentioned above, there is some sort of contact between Snape and the elder Malfoy--and the elder Malfoy thinks Snape is on his side.
LilyP - Sep 18, 2003 12:34 pm (#132 of 644)
"how come he didn't go to the graveyard in the end of GoF? He should have, because all death eaters that weren't in Azkaban and that weren't running away from Voldermont went- if Snape has left them he's not about to show it to them all just like that, he would have gone to the graveyard, right?"
This part has bothered me for a while, too. The only thing I could think of is that if Snape was with everyone else at the stadium, he was on Hogwarts grounds, and could not apparate. Therefore, he would need to sneak away from the grounds before he could apparate. That could be his reasoning and/or excuse for Voldi for not coming right away. I assumed that is where he went after DD sent him away from the hospital wing at he end of GoF. Then with his gifts in occlumency, he would be able to hide what he was really doing.
I also wonder about the pensieve. If you remove a memory into your pensieve, then a legilement would not be able to read/see it, right??
Gina R Snape - Sep 18, 2003 3:36 pm (#133 of 644)
Edited Sep 18, 2003 5:06 pm
We know frustratingly little about the mechanics of the Pensieve and the human mind.
But there is a way for Snape to stay under Dumbledore's protection and convince the Dark Lord that he is a true death eater. It's mostly been covered. But, in short, in PS/SS, Voldemort did not show himself. So, Snape could easily give any number of excuses as to why he ws preventing Quirrell from obtaining the stone. Protecting Potter in the Quidditch pitch could easily have been seen as Snape wanting to "save" Potter for Voldemort's pleasure to kill upon his return.
In CoS, Voldemort wasn't working out in the open. Snape could not have known the chamber was his doing. Furthermore, he might not have known the Tom Riddle history. Other DEs don't seem to know.
In GoF, Snape could very easily have said he could not disapparate off the Hogwarts grounds, and went and prostrated himself before the Dark Lord at the earliest moment. Also, Crouch Jr. was disguised as Moody, and so Snape couldn't have known that he was helping to bring Voldemort back. There's a very easy example of "but my Lord, had you told me, I could have helped..."
Finally, I believe Snape going to Dumbledore to become a spy was a double-edged plan to begin with. Snape went to Dumbledore for protection, yes, and because he switched sides. (I believe it has to do with the prophecy, but I started a thread about that subject). I also think Voldemort would have been quite pleased to have one of his death eaters inside Hogwarts castle. That would be the best explanation of all, the Snape could feign support of Dumbledore for Voldemort's benefit, and be none the wiser of the true nature of the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore.
Yes, my darling Severus could be the sneakiest, cleverest, most cunning of them all pulling that off. ::swoon::
EDIT: I just realised I'd completely forgotten there is a thread "Does Voldemort Know about Snape" so I'm not sure we should continue discussing this specifically on the Snape thread.
Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2003 7:31 pm (#134 of 644)
Snape is definitely an enigma. He seems to be good guy at one point and then possibly a bad guy, but again a good guy. He never quite reacts exactly as expected in many instances. He could be so many things, but the only thing he is consistently is a mystery.
Cconsidering his relationship to Lucius Malfoy, any number of people could probably arrange an "accident" for dear Severus if necessary, so it seems to me that he was either at the rebirthing or was the one who would pay. He lasted through the fifth book, after all.
At the end of GoF, Snape is at the feast and looks at Harry for a while. Snape's expression is difficult to read although he still has his usual sour look. Too bad we couldn't get inside his head at that moment to see exactly what he was thinking.
It does seem to be typical Snape that when he next encounters Harry after the entire DoM scene, he seems jubilant that he can take points away from Gryffindor because of Harry.
I swear that after the seventh book, JKR needs to write an entire book about Snape.
Madame Librarian - Sep 19, 2003 4:17 am (#135 of 644)
It just struck me that the two people who are given huge responsibilty to protect Harry are two people who truly seem to detest him the most--Snape and Petunia!
Anyone think there's a connection somehow? Has this been dealt with on an earlier thread? I have a vague recollection of someone putting Snape and Petunia in a relationship much earlier on, but can't quite dredge up the details. That's not exactly what I mean here, though. I'm thinking more some sort of life-debt thing to the WW or DD where they're bound to Harry's safety in order to protect them from punishment by the WW or revenge by V.
Snape and Petunia. Petunia and Snape. Hmmmm....
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2003 8:40 am (#136 of 644)
I hadn't quite thought of that before, Madame Librarian, but you sure nailed it on the head with those two protecting him yet detesting him.
There could easily be a relationship between them, albeit not a romantic one. I like your life-debt idea.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 19, 2003 1:11 pm (#137 of 644)
Snape and Petunia?, I don't think they're "related", just a coincidence that they protect and hate him at the same time. But I mean, Snape isn't the only one protecting him, there's Dumbledore, etc.. .well, they ARE the ones who hate him, but I just can't see a relationship between them.
S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 10:37 pm (#138 of 644)
As for the "coward" DE and the "one who had left forever" goes, Voldy had made a comment when he summoned the DEs about who would be too cowardly to return. I think Snape is the "coward" and he did use the 'on Hogwarts grounds' excuse to reincorporate himself into the fold. I think Karkaroff is definately the one who had left Voldy forever and will be killed since he was a known turncoat. However, I doubt that Karkaroff could offer any evidence that Snape was a spy for DD or on DD's side, so I think Severus is still relatively safe.....
popkin - Sep 20, 2003 1:35 am (#139 of 644)
This has probably been noticed a million times by now, but I just now saw it. Salazar Slytherin and Severus Snape share the initials "SS". Hmmmmmmmm.....
Madame Librarian - Sep 20, 2003 5:15 am (#140 of 644)
Rose Marie, I didn't mean a romantic relationship between Snape and Petunia, nor did I necessarily mean even a platonic one. What I meant was that perhaps they had both gotten involved in some sort of criminal action either with or without the DEs and were caught and offered this life-debt deal rather than an Azkaban sentence. In other words, I suggested a "partners in crime" sort of relationship without a need to be close or good friends. Maybe they were classmates or members of a "gang." Something like that. Or not--they could have crossed paths as defendants in their trials at the MoM or even at Azkaban.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 20, 2003 9:04 am (#141 of 644)
No, of course I didn't interpret any romantic relation, Petunia hates "that lot". But either way, I think this theory is too far fethed (sorry!). Now that I think of it, when Voldermort's giving his little speech, I think "the one who will be killed" is Karkaroff; the one who will only pay is Snape.
Maollelujah - Sep 21, 2003 7:56 pm (#142 of 644)
However, I doubt that Karkaroff could offer any evidence that Snape was a spy for DD or on DD's side, so I think Severus is still relatively safe.....
While Karkaroff might not be able to give Voldie solid evidence, he can still tell him what he heard, which will surely get Voldie thinking...
S.E. Jones - Sep 21, 2003 9:15 pm (#143 of 644)
What could he have really overheard that would give Snape away?
Maollelujah - Sep 21, 2003 9:53 pm (#144 of 644)
During his trial, he heard DD vouch that Snape had been a spy. Below is the text from GoF:
"No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. "I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."
Jesspy - Sep 21, 2003 11:54 pm (#145 of 644)
I had the thougth that Snape being nasty to Harry has had a positive outcome.
Harry was always going to be given a hard time about his past and as Dumbledore may have predicted, his future. Maybe it is possible Dumbledore has given permission to Snape to be mean to Harry. The purpose being to toughen up Harry, to beable to take unreasonable harsh critasim, make him stronger.
Harry has already had many things said about him that is very hurtful and a method of dealing with this had been developed at a young age, ie at the Dursleys. Snape is just continuing his education.
He maybe mean to Neville as he thinks Neville is actually the "one"
I do lean towards snapes hatred and cover as a spy theories more.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 22, 2003 9:49 am (#146 of 644)
If you look at Severus' past in OoP, the life he had would make anyone bitter. I don't think that Snape is "acting" mean to Harry. He has protected him and helped him, but I don't think that he cares for Harry like Sirius or DD do.
fidelio - Sep 22, 2003 10:02 am (#147 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 11:03 am
If we take one of the descriptions of Slytherins the Sorting Hat has given us, Snape was educated in a house characterized by being willing to use any means to achieve their desired ends. Therefore, if Harry Potter is the way to defeat the Dork Lard, Harry Potter shall be trained and educated to do this very thing. Snape wasn't raised to believe he had to like things to do them; if the result is important enough to him, he'll just have to accept the means.
However, he was probably in detention the day they had the little talk in the common room about being able to win more friends and influence more people if you concealed just how annoyed you were by all these annoying necessities, especially the ones that reminded you of their fathers, who used to beat you up when you were younger. In the American South, we refer to this as the "You catch more flies with molasses [or honey] than you do with vinegar" speech, and every Southern child has heard it at least once, usually after asking why they had to be nice to someone they loathed. [In fact, people who move to the South end up using it on their children, even if they grew up some place else where it was never used.]
I shall now leave you to contemplate the spectacle of Snape's reaction to this little homily.
fidelio - Sep 22, 2003 10:37 am (#148 of 644)
In fact, I'll even suggest that you contemplate the image of a young Snape being given lines to write by an exasperated teacher--Flitwick, perhaps, or Prof. SProut, or even Minerva McG: "You can catch more flies with treacle than you can with vinegar", with an extra detention, scrubbing things somewhere, when he asked "Why would I want a lot of flies?"
S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 1:54 pm (#149 of 644)
"Why would I want a lot of flies?"
Well, for potions work obviously...
Maollelujah, good point, but I still don't think this is too great a threat to Snape as Karkaroff is already considered by his side to be a traitor and so Voldy may not believe him, even if he gives him the chance to speak. He may prefer to believe Snape, who as a skills Occulemens could probably hide the fact that this is true. On the other hand, that could also be the reason that JK showed Karkaroff specifically naming Snape during his trial....Hmmm......
Maollelujah - Sep 22, 2003 4:01 pm (#150 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 5:02 pm
I don't think that Karkaroff presents any threat to Snape, until Voldie catches him. Once Voldie has Karkaroff cornered, Karkaroff will, in my estimation, squeal like a pig. He will try to save his skin and one of the things that might save him is the name of the spy among the Death Eaters.
Well that is just my guess.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 22, 2003 6:36 pm (#151 of 644)
Personally, I hope Karkaroff is killed long before Moldy Voldy can question him.
And on the subject of the Death Eater trials...wouldn't one of the other DEs (say, Malfoy Sr.) know about Karkaroff's outburst and Dumbledore's reply? Wouldn't that have gotten back to Voldy? Because didn't Fudge say in book 4 that there were trial transcripts? If I were a DE, I would have read those things a long time ago...just to know what, if anything, was said about me.
S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 6:43 pm (#152 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 7:45 pm
That's assuming any of the DEs had access to them. They might be kept by the Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement head and even the Minister of Magic can't access them or can't show them to anyone....
I still don't know if Voldy would believe Karkaroff as he definately knows that he's a traitor and Snape has Lucius's word and his Occulemency going for him.....
popkin - Sep 22, 2003 7:08 pm (#153 of 644)
One of the things Voldy is really good at is knowing when someone is telling him the truth. If Karkaroff were given the chance to divulge information about Snape, I think it would be the end of Snape's spying career - unless, of course, he's a double agent.
Romulus - Sep 23, 2003 8:54 am (#154 of 644)
For me, the most interesting thing about Snape is the reaction we fans have to him. I can't think of a single canon instance of Snape doing something nice, whereas there are many examples of him being unfair, bullying etc. So why is he a favourite character of so many of us, me included? I think a big factor is the unreserved trust Dumbledore has for him. Contrast this to someone like Fudge, who has on occasion done the right thing, but is almost universally disliked by fans. What's the attraction of Severus?
popkin - Sep 23, 2003 9:48 am (#155 of 644)
At least one thing in Snape's favor is that Alan Rickman portrays him in the movies.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 23, 2003 10:24 am (#156 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 11:43 am
Probably the only thing...*greasy little slimeball*
Granted he is a very complex character, but going by canon alone, he's not exactly the swooning romantic figure that some people see him as.
Okay Snape people, let those tomatoes fly!
Neville Longbottom - Sep 23, 2003 10:38 am (#157 of 644)
Snape did save Harry's life in book 1. I liked him ever since this happened. And although Harry was in parts pretty annoying in book 5, I would say saving his life is a nice thing to do. ;-) Snape again helped saving Harry at the end of books 4 and 5.
schoff - Sep 23, 2003 10:43 am (#158 of 644)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 11:46 am
Yeah, that's what turned me too. Even though Snape is a very cruel individual, he helps save Harry, but in the background, so that's it's not immediately noticeable. I like the quiet background work that he does so that you're always going "Okay, is he really helping, or hindering?"--and it turns out he's usually helping. He's been instrumental in saving Harry's life in each book, whether knowingly (SS, GoF), unknowingly (CoS), or in quasi-good faith (PoA). And I read all four books before I even saw the first movie.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 10:53 am (#159 of 644)
Snape also allows JKR to give some comic relief. I mean, you do have to admit visualizing Snape with Neville's Gran's vulture hat is quite humorous, or young Severus being suspended upside-down so all can see his grey underwear. Thank goodness he wasn't going commando!
Sly Girl - Sep 23, 2003 11:29 am (#160 of 644)
I thought some might find this essay on the importance of Snape to the series, interesting. It's from the Harry Potter Prognostications website. It's long, but worth it and I think it ties into the other discussion we were having about Slytherin being a 'bad' house.
Many words can be used to describe Harry Potter (the boy, not the books). Courageous, brave, faithful. Some words can't. A good example of a word that can't be used to describe Harry is "perfect." Harry is not perfect.
The problem is that Harry would like to think that he is perfect. Any number of events in Harry's past could have contributed to this; the death of his parents, making him feel as if the world owed him something, or the sudden knowledge that he was a hero to the Wizarding World. Either way, Harry is not sufficiently in touch with his Dark Side. Throughout the books, we see the proverbial little red devil on Harry's shoulder sway him towards untoward actions. And all the while, Harry's ego is calmly ignoring the pleas of his conscience.
Try as he might to ignore the fact that he is not perfect, one person constantly reminds Harry of this fact:Snape. Time and again, just when Harry thinks he's on top of the world, Snape comes along and takes him down a few. From their first meeting in Book 1, Snape shows his contempt for Harry's self-righteousness. Repeatedly, he presents us with a clear and concise explanation as to why he feels this way: Harry is a boy who thinks he is above the rules, that he can decide for himself what is right.
The striking aspect of Snape's character, aside from his loathsomeness, is the fact that he is the exact opposite of Harry in this regard. Snape has shown he has the moral strength to not get down with his bad self. Despite his inclination towards the Dark Side, in which he indulges quite copiously in ruling his Potions class with iron-fist, when the big decisions come around, Snape makes the "right" choice. He chooses to defy Lord Voldemort, turning spy for Dumbledore (despite the fact that James and Sirius, his arch-rivals, would not only be on his side, but would be able to harp him for admitting his failure in judgment). He does this even when it puts him in danger; in Book 5 it is apparent that he has some contact, if not with Lord Voldemort himself, then at least with some of his Death Eaters.
In Book 5 we get a bit more history on Snape, when Harry delves into his memories in the Pensieve. What we learn of Snape is not pretty, but adds to our knowledge and understanding of him considerably. We learn, amongst other things, that as a boy, Snape liked to kill spiders with his wand, practicing the Unforgivable Curses. His family was, in a word, dysfunctional. He was disliked at school, despite being an exceptional student. And he was picked on and tortured by James and his gang, who relied on their house affiliation to keep their images pristine. As a result of years of this kind of pressure, Snape becomes the person who is today: a bitter, jaded and sometimes cruel soul.
Here we come to the crux of who Snape is, and what to expect from his character. Snape represents the injustice paid to people who have affiliations and connection they can not break to unfavorable elements of society. His natural tendencies are towards Slytherin, which really shouldn?t be a big deal. We see that Snape is able to make moral decisions in important situations. Yet he is still accused of being a Death Eater, and only the testimony of Albus Dumbledore saves him from Azkaban. Even after repeated events that should have convinced Harry and the Gang that he is trustworthy, Snape still finds himself having to win over the Gryffindor's trust and respect. Nonetheless, Snape stays true to himself, not compromising his identity to placate the masses into accepting him.
What Snape experiences is the exact opposite of the racism preached by Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort's elitism excludes all but the purest of blood. But the so-called inclusiveness heralded by the Gryffindor's in fact alienates those Slytherins who are not pure Evil, like Snape. Due to their association with the house that Voldemort built, they are branded as outcasts. True, so far no one in the books appears to exhibit redeeming qualities, but the prevailing attitude is "Kick out the Slytherins" and not, "Kick out the Bad Guys." But as soon as it becomes about the house and not the person, it?s the same racism espoused by Voldemort. No doubt Snape's dislike for Harry stems from this; within himself, he has conquered his Little-Red-Devil, making sacrifices beyond most others, yet he is still considered an outcast. Harry, on the other hand, quietly gives in to his desire quite frequently, yet is still publicly thought a hero. Harry pleaded with the Sorting Hat to keep him out of Slytherin, yet he calls on their powers ever so often, all the time wearing the pure badge of Gryffindor. Snape senses this hypocrisy, sees in himself the result of its distinctions, and fights back.
In the end, I think Snape will be presented with a choice, where if he makes the "right" decision, it will be detrimental to himself, and beneficial to Harry. This in turn will drive home to Harry the nature of his own selfishness, and cause him to consciously change his attitude. Snape will help Harry take a major step away from the James he saw in the Pensieve, towards a Harry that is able to look past his own insecurities and join together even with those he loathes. And he will be one step closer to fulfilling the advice of the Sorting Hat in Book 5; that all houses must work together in order to conquer Evil. Don?t forget, this was the major advice of the Sorting Hat in Book 5, and by the end we are no closer (in fact, we are much further) away from this goal than before. Snape may be the rare individual who has the power to join the two houses, of integrating the Lion and Snake into a single, whole beast, stronger and more terrible than Lord Voldemort can imagine.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 12:00 pm (#161 of 644)
Sly Girl, the essay about Snape was very very interesting, it explains and clarifies a whole lot, I'm glad you posted it. Well I did have one question before I even read your post, I'll post it anyway (even though your essay has proably answered my question. But still, I would like to see what people have to say about it).
One thing I thought about after I read the 5th book for the second time: how come Harry hates Snape even more? I mean, Harry admits that he didn't put any effort into his Occlumency lessons, he knows that he is, in some way, responsible for the death of Sirius. Not only that, but he knows that Snape got his message (back in Umbridge's office), that he contacted Sirius to see if he was OK, AND he went into the forest to look for Harry after seeing Sirius was fine.. so why does he hate him? Is it just because he feels guilty and thinks it more comfortable to place the blame on someone else, especially if that someone is a person he doesn't like at all to begin with? He should feel less resentful towards him,I think. But knowing Harry, I suppose the incrase in his dislike towards Snape is "understandable".
There is also one other thing; Snape dislikes Harry from the moment he sees him. I know he hated James, but why should he take it out on Harry? He didn't even give Harry a chance, I think this was very unfair.
S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 12:21 pm (#162 of 644)
Yeah, I think he increased resentment is just part of the grieving process....
Will Snape lay off Harry somewhat this next year, know what he knows about Harry and Sirius's relationship and Harry's part in Sirius's death, or will he dig into him even more in an attempt to finally get through to him that there are consequences for his actions? What does everyone think?
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 12:33 pm (#163 of 644)
Even though he has helped Harry in the past, for example the Quiddich match in PS/SS, there is still animosity between them. Snape still looks for ways to pick on Harry. It may be a matter of Snape allowing himself to "get back" at James for picking on him, but all the while maintain the life debt to James by saving Harry...often.
Gina R Snape - Sep 23, 2003 12:58 pm (#164 of 644)
Sly Girl, that is a wonderful essay. Thank you so much for posting it! I think we should direct a thread to it from Josh's thread on "what went wrong with the house of Slytherin" (exact title escapes me right now).
On the first EZBoard, I posted something about why I like Snape apart from Rickman. When I go home tonight I'll fish it out and repost it here. Because I do want to make the point that many of us love Snape entirely apart from Rickman, exceptional though his portrayal is.
Oh, and to the person who had the tomato-throwing smiley---very cute!
Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 1:06 pm (#165 of 644)
Sarah, to answer your question about whether Snape will lay off Harry a bit, I can almost see that happening in a real world situation, but in the Potterverse, I think book 6 will be too soon for them to starting getting along better. At least the beginning of book 6 would be too soon. So much of the emotional tone of the start of the school year is dependent upon Harry dreading Snape's classes. It would be a big departure for JKR to have them off on a better foot.
But, she is a very creative lady and could have a terrifically powerful opening with them starting to understand each other better. I have to remind myself that I was at first taken aback by the opening scenes in GoF. What is she doing? Where are those Dursleys? What's happenend to Dudders. But that scene at the Riddle house was great and sooo creepy. And, then the familiar pattern took over.
Ciao. Barb
Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 2:28 pm (#166 of 644)
Rose, I agree with Sarah -- I think the increased hatred right now is just a part of the grieving process. Harry is a very angry young man right now, and I don't think he'll resolve it right away. It will take time, probably a good part of Book 6 if not all of it. And, much as I like Snape's character (well, let's say "find Snape's character interesting" rather than "like"), I don't believe he'll exactly help Harry to like him more.
Very interesting and observant essay, Sly Girl.
S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 2:36 pm (#167 of 644)
Barb, I didn't say I thought they'd get along, I don't think they ever will. I was just pondering if Snape would lay off Harry, possibly at being asked to by DD, or if he would dig into him more. This will be a hard year for Harry because I think he'll still be grieving in Bk6, however, it is also the year he'll really have to start buckling down and focusing on his fight with Voldy, I hope....
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 2:48 pm (#168 of 644)
Like Mme. Pince, I don't so much like Snape as find him fascinating--what exactly, makes him tick, and what's he going to do next? Also, while I agree that his behavior is often exasperating, infuriating, or simply annoying, without knowing more I find it hard to be too judgmental--I've seen too much of the forces that produce messed-up people to condemn him out-of-hand, and I want to see what happens--is he going to achieve closure on his feud with James Potter, sort out his baggage, and achieve, if not inner peace, then at least some insight, and eventual redemption? Or is he heading for a cell with an ocean view at Azkaban, or a duel to the death with Nymphadora Tonks or Alastor Moody? Will he help save the day, or sell them all out at the last moment? Is he going to be a Judas, whose treachery is vital to the final victory, or has he been cooperating all along simply for a chance to score off Lucius Malfoy in settlement of a family feud, and once he has the keys to the Manor and ejects Narcissa and Draco, will he stop teaching and start raising flesh-eating orchids in genteel, if bad-tempered retirement, exclaiming to Harry and Voldilocks "My curse on both of you! Now go away, I need to repot an orchid!" [That last sentence was probably much too long, but I got carried away.]
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 2:50 pm (#169 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 3:55 pm
Fidelio- about your questions as to what will happen with Snape, they reflect my state of mind! (well only the part of my mind concerned with Snape), we know nothing about what's going to happen later on with him, so I ask myself a whole bunch of questions as I want to know more, then I have to think to myself "ok now this is getting out of hand", etc.
I don't think he'll be less hateful towards Harry. When Harry is about to hex Draco (I think it was the last day of term, in book 5), Snape takes points away from Gryffindor (because Harry was about to hex Malfoy); this isn't what tells me that his attitude towards doesn't change, it's obvious that he'll take points from Harry's house if he knows he was going to hex somebody; what does is that it says that Snape spoke to him "as coldly as ever" (I think that's the exact words). You know at first I wondered whether Snape would be "nicer" (in his own way, anyway) to Harry, knowing how much he's suffereing. But knowing Snape I don't think his attitute towards Harry will change (not until something happens between them, like someone saving someone's life, or them having to work together, or SOMETHING). Basically I think things will be the same between them (well except for the fact that Harry hates him more, I think he'll stop feeling this way when he comes to term with the fact that Snape is on their side).
schoff - Sep 23, 2003 2:54 pm (#170 of 644)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 3:54 pm
You know Rose Marie, I read that scene completely differently. I didn't get that Snape was taking points because Harry was going to hex Draco, but because Harry talked back to Snape. Snape actually seemed taken aback at Harry's answer to his question. I don't think he quite expected Harry to say that, or with such venom.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 2:58 pm (#171 of 644)
Hehe, maybe you're right. Either way, he'd find some way of taking points away anyway, he always does that with Harry, you know, he's always trying to make him tick, by bullying and so on.
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 3:25 pm (#172 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 4:26 pm
We still don't know if he's favoring Draco to cover up his spying, by seeming to be on the Malfoys' side, or if it's a genuine preference on his part. Of course, if he's still keeping up his cover, he's going to be looking for reasons to put Harry down in front of witnesses. Even if we could crack his skull open and look around, it wouldn't help much. Book 6 is expected when?!
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 23, 2003 3:27 pm (#173 of 644)
The man needs a girlfriend!
~Caitlin
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 3:29 pm (#174 of 644)
He needs therapy first. Trust me--I've dated a Snape-like man. They need therapy first.
Gina R Snape - Sep 23, 2003 3:40 pm (#175 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 4:41 pm
::whistles, taps foot and looks around in response to Caitlin's remark:: Needs a girlfriend, indeed.
schoff, I agree with you. Snape has no way of knowing at this point that Harry hates him more than ever, and blames him for Sirius' death. But I think it will come out in book six as these two are forced to work together. Don't forget, Snape is looking forward to No More Potter In His Classroom. But we all know Dumbledore will make him let Harry take Potions anyway...
So, I went back to the EZBoard and found my post. Because it's a personal pet peeve of mine when I tell people I like Snape and they insist it's because of Alan Rickman, or assume all Snape fans are really just AR fans, etc. Not that the accusation has happened here. But someone did ask about people being Snape fans. So here goes.
---
I'd like to offer something of my POV regarding Snape, not the lust-after Rickman portrayal. But an honest examination of his character. So, please bear with me.
Snape does something for Harry's benefit in every single book. And he shows unprecedented loyalty to Dumbledore and the side of good.
The Snape I see is a complex and fascinating man. He's the kind of man who's been around the block a few times and has the scars to show it, but he's not yet reached an age where the tell-tale signs of wisdom, thoughtful reflection and patience start kicking in.
He's clearly had a hard life, even if we only know a smattering of details (we can make respectable guesses to fill in the gaps), and he's been around long enough to become hardened, cynical and embittered.
Yet there's still those traces of an angry young man: He harbours a lot of rage, resentment and jealousy, and has a nasty, often childish and petty, vindictive streak running through him (which is what many people seem to focus on). There's an underlying hint of an insecure person desperately seeking respect, who's worth in this world is constantly questioned by others, and is seemingly disappointed that he hasn't become more than he has.
He is extremely intelligent. His comments are seen as mean by the kids, but are often quite funny and sharp. And his interactions with McGonagall, for example, are biting but actually quite playful. However, children often do not understand sarcasm, and these books are written from Harry's POV. Which is why so many readers see him as a bad guy. But he is not. He is complicated. He is on the side of good, but he is not nice. Like Sirius says in OoP, the world is not made up of good people and death eaters.
Snape teaches a kind of tough love. He is not kind to the kids. But he is strategic. He makes sure they learn what he thinks they need to learn to ready themselves for what's out there. It was Snape who taught Harry Expelliarmus in book two. Which wound up saving his life in book 4. It is Snape who loses it in book 3 because -- and he tells Harry this-- so many people are working on his benefit to protect his life. He is frustrated with Harry because he and so many others are doing so much for his benefit. In fact, in PoA, Lupin tells Harry the same exact message as Snape, only Lupin is nice so Harry actually listens to him.
Snape has been watching over Harry and trying to get him to follow rules and learn how to think strategically (eg. when to keep his mouth shut) for five years for Harry's own protection. He just isn't nice about doing it, so people think he's an evil, greasy git.
What makes him attractive as a character is this combination of dark inner struggle, difficult past, extreme intelligence, snarkiness, committment to good, and battling his inner deamons and urges on what frankly seems like a daily basis. I want to know what horrors he faced as a death eater. It will make his turn-around all that more dramatic. Brave. Romantic. Heroic. Tragic. And funny. I laugh out loud at many of his "lines" in the book. It's a kind of black humour not everyone gets. I want to see how dark he has been and can become. It makes his struggle against it all the more real. All the more fascinating. It adds a depth to his character beyond many others in HP in my opinion. And this is all from the books and has nothing to do with Alan Rickman's fine portrayal.
Not that I am complaining about AR's portrayal. His ability to ooze nastiness, sex appeal, sarcasm, worldliness, swooping body language and other Snape traits was, to me, a most delightful added bonus.
My apologies to everyone who has now had to read this twice (once on EZBoard).
Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 8:00 pm (#176 of 644)
Bravo, Gina! An excellent summation. It should be on the Lexicon.
Weeny Owl - Sep 23, 2003 9:34 pm (#177 of 644)
Excellent observations, Gina.
I can agree with you on most of it. I do remember in CoS when Harry and Ron were wondering where Snape was, Snape is right behind them and really lets them have it. I thought that was hilrious and well-written.
I think Harry's hatred of Snape at the end of OotP is because of how Snape was goading Sirius about being a coward and staying in the house. Regardless of what Dumbledore said about Sirius being too old to react to such taunts, Harry may feel that even though he blames himself for most, if not all, of what led up to Sirius dying, that Sirius might have stayed at 12 Grimmauld Place if it hadn't been for Snape.
I can see how Snape's attitude about Harry makes a lot of sense in later books because of the constant rule breaking and such, but I still don't understand the utter loathing of an eleven-year-old boy who had never, at least at the beginning of his first year, ever done any harm to Snape.
I do find it interesting that Sirius and Snape both seem to be unable to separate the son from the father. Sirius acts sometimes as if his best friend is back while Snape acts as if his worst enemy is back. I'm sure they'd hate being compared to each other.
LilyP - Sep 23, 2003 11:09 pm (#178 of 644)
"Snape has been watching over Harry and trying to get him to follow rules and learn how to think strategically (eg. when to keep his mouth shut) for five years for Harry's own protection. He just isn't nice about doing it, so people think he's an evil, greasy git."
I am with you 100%. I think he knows what Harry has to potential to become and is unwilling to settle for the mediocrity that we see in most pre-teens. He expects Harry to rise above his circumstances and become truly great. I think it does become irksome to him at times because of the connection with James. I think Weeny Owl has a point about both men being unable to separate the two Potters. As we saw in the pensieve, James and Harry are not as alike as we had originally thought. I think it will take Snape time to realize this (like 2 more years) - or maybe he never will.
I guess I'm just glad there is someone at Hogwarts that is holding Harry to such a high standard. (Not that the other professors have low standards, mind you.) Harry is going to have to deal with horrors that no one (except maybe Dumbledore) can even imagine. I think the strength of character and perseverance building within Harry due to Snape's treatment will carry him a long way in the end.
popkin - Sep 24, 2003 12:09 am (#179 of 644)
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 1:14 am
I think you are giving Snape a little bit too much credit. While he has certainly protected Harry from harm in the past, he does not seem to be that interested in forming Harry's character. How many times has he sincerely wished to see Harry expelled? Was that to form Harry's character, or to be rid of him. Why did he quit trying to teach Harry occlumency? To be rid of him.
I see Snape having scruples about the most important things - life and death situations. However, in most matters, Snape seems to be concerned with his own agenda. He wants his own house to excell, to win at quiditch, to win the house cup, to win at one-upmanship. In order to achieve his goals, he is willing to sacrifice his other students' self-esteem, grades, and school careers.
And, JKR does not want us to like him. That's why she's written him as a beak nosed, greasy haired, sneering, conniving, childish, vindictive git.
Gina R Snape - Sep 24, 2003 9:31 am (#180 of 644)
Well, popkin. I have repeatedly noticed that JKR and her audience will sometimes disagree about who they like. I chalk that up to "taste." Yes, she knows what will happen in the future. But she also has her preferences along with everyone else. She herself said she'd like to be a Gryffindor. How many of us would rather be a Ravenclaw or Slytherin or Hufflepuff for example?
Aside from that, I think she's created a bit of a "front" or "red herring." She sets Snape up to look bad, and it masks the good he's doing. I thought that was pretty clear at the end of OoP when Dumbledore tells Harry everything Snape did behind the scenes. Even going so far as to show concern for Sirius' safety. But then, I also thought that was clear in PS/SS and we are still debating that 4 books later.
Alas, I firmly believe we readers will debate this until well beyond the 7th book. But what JKR has told us is that sometimes Snape takes advantage of his position (for his own amusement I think, when the consequences aren't dire) and that we shouldn't feel "too sorry" for him. With that, I think she means that he's had a hard lot in life, but he has brought some of his own misery on himself. And who of us hasn't had some that in our lifes?
As I see it, the only time he really messed up was ending the Occlumency lessons. But in truth, Dumbledore should've known better than to set him and Harry up that way. And Harry did something very wrong (breaking a major major boundary) precipitating that reaction. In the end, we all have limits to our capabilities (both skill and emotional) and Snape is no exception here.
(pauses to breathe)
And I am a firm believer that he either puts something in his hair to keep it from setting fire over all those cauldrons, or it only looks greasy, but it's really just super shiny, fine and soft. hee
Neville Longbottom - Sep 24, 2003 10:02 am (#181 of 644)
I agree with you Gina. And about the occlumency lessons: Harry didn't practise anyway, therefore I doubt it would have been much of a difference, if Snape had continued the lessons. Still, that doesn't exuse his behaviour in that case, of course.
Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 10:19 am (#182 of 644)
Just occurred to me--maybe Snape keeps trying to get Harry expelled in order to send him "home" (Dursley house) where he is the safest. Or where Snape thinks he's the safest. Yes, Snape may detest Harry on one level, but for some mysterious reason wants Harry to survive and at the same time be out of his hair, greasy though it may be.
I find Snape and Petunia to be two of the most befuddling characters. I don't think their stories will unwind fully until the very end of book 7.
Ciao. Barb
timrew - Sep 24, 2003 11:09 am (#183 of 644)
Edited Sep 24, 2003 12:10 pm
"That's why she's written him as a beak nosed, greasy haired, sneering, conniving, childish, vindictive git."
I think you should realise, popkin, that nobody's perfect.
Lisaren - Sep 25, 2003 6:55 am (#184 of 644)
Edited Sep 25, 2003 7:57 am
Popkin, I must say I agree completely and could not have said it better.
In response to the essay (post #160), I do not believe the essay is correct in its treatment of Harry. Snape shows his dislike of Harry on his first day at Hogwarts. There is no way he could know anything about Harry's character without first talking to him. He made Harry of victim of the Snape/James/Sirius war that should have ended 20 years ago. Harry does not feel he is always right any more so than any teenager. As a matter of fact, the abuse he has received at the Dursley's has in most ways made him more sympathetic toward the other characters in the story. He does have an issue with discussing his problems with an adult. Oops, this looks like it should go to the Harry thread, but I am unable to believe Snape's treatment of any of the kids in the story is to teach them anything.
I think Snape is a childish, selfish git who understands the big things as Popkin said, but lets his own fears, vendettas, and bitterness affect his daily dealing with those weaker than himself (the typical bully).
Susurro Notities - Sep 25, 2003 9:46 am (#185 of 644)
Edited by Sep 25, 2003 11:08 am
I sincerely regret not having read this thread earlier. I would like to post a response to Madam Pince regarding post #64. Madam Pince brought this to my attention on a different thread where my response would not be appropriate. Sorry about this interuption in the current discussion. (I do think there are some connections between this theory and the current discussions regarding Snape and Harry's relationship but I am too tired to type them now.)
Madam Pince,
I read it last night. I thought it was brilliant, so well thought out. Thank you for reposting it and for bringing my attention to it. I had a couple of observations about about your theory. 1. I thought Lily's mom must have been a witch or dad wouldn't want to marry her. Lily's father was a muggle. Thus Lily is a (forgive me) 'mudblood' 2. Snape's use of the word 'mudblood' might have been something he learned in the orphanage. He may have held on to his purebred status as a way to set him apart from the other kids. Therefore they were mudbloods. 3. Dad was abusive but his anger was misplaced youthful rage. With aging he mellowed - I know from experience that can happen! 4. Unfortunately dad's maturing did not include rescuing Snape from the orphanage. I have known a couple of men who had nice families and wives and were nice guys and then found out that they had a troubled youth complete with bad marriages and children that they no longer associated with. These men seem afraid that to include children from former marriages will taint their current families. Unfortunately some of these children are so angry, justifiable so, that they would be unable to integrate peacefully into a family. They would in fact be disruptive and damaging to a family. What horrible messes adults make when they fail to see the consequences of their actions and almost without exception it is the children who suffer the most.
I love the idea of Mark Evens being Snape's son. JKR said that OoP had to be long because she had to include information so that later fans would not be saying 'where did that come from'. I am convinced that Mark Evens is one of those things. If your theory is right it would also fit with the statement JKR made that some of the Hogwarts professors are married. If all of this is correct then we can look forward to an interesting plot twist involving Snape and his family.
LilyP - Sep 25, 2003 1:46 pm (#186 of 644)
Actually, in that same interview (I think), she mentioned that in the future books we would be learning more about professors' spouses. I need to look for my source. I'll add it in if I find it. Does anyone else remember reading this somewhere?
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 25, 2003 1:54 pm (#187 of 644)
I remember hearing about it in the St. Mungo's Fallout Shelter while we were waiting for Book 5 to come out...
~Caitlin
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 25, 2003 2:48 pm (#188 of 644)
I remember seeing it too, but after Book 5 came out. But I can't remember where I saw it.
virgoddess1313 - Sep 25, 2003 3:43 pm (#189 of 644)
In PoA, no doubt Snape knew the truth about Sirius, but, he held a grudge, so naturally, why would he want to save him? Snape was going to tell the story that gave him the glory. He's only human, right? Sure he's bitter and yeah, it wasn't the right way to go, but Snape and Sirius had been enemies for years. Sirius had made Snape look like an idiot while they were in school, and now Snape had the chance to be the hero for once.
And as far as Dumbledore and his trust of Snape goes, I think there is quite a bit too it, which, doubtless, we will be privy too later on.
Susurro Notities - Sep 25, 2003 5:00 pm (#190 of 644)
Edited by Sep 25, 2003 6:00 pm
The interview in which she mentions the spouses is: Comic Relief interview, 12 March, 2001. There is a link to it in the Lexicon.
S.E. Jones - Sep 25, 2003 7:53 pm (#191 of 644)
Comic Relief, 12 March 2001:
Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
A: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 26, 2003 11:12 am (#192 of 644)
OOooh I can't wait! Does anyone have any idea when the 6th book is or might be coming out?
Olivia Wood - Sep 26, 2003 2:25 pm (#193 of 644)
I'm betting on July 2005, for no particular reason. : )
Anyway, back to Snape. I love him, he's so well written, but I didn't really like Alan Rickman's portrayal of him at all, so I assure you all that my interpretation of book Snape is not being tainted. I don't think Snape is being mean to the kids to teach them a lesson, or to keep up his cover (although that might be the reason he favors Draco) or anything like that, I think he just doesn't like children. I wouldn't be surprised if thats one of the things he regrets most about becoming a Death Eater; it eventually forced him to spend 15 years teaching potions to a bunch of annoying, incompetent, spoiled brats. Just how overqualified is he?
I actually think I'd get along pretty well with Snape. Overly-nice people are annoying. They always seem insencere and shallow and all that, Snape has much bigger concerns than to worry himself about offending a bunch of 11-year-olds. I actually think he'd dislike Harry even if he didn't have a personal grudge against his father. He just seems like the type of person who would go against popular opinion just on principle, and he's got good reason for it.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 26, 2003 2:42 pm (#194 of 644)
Olivia Wood- I love Snape as well (I liked A.Rickman but I imagine Snape to be even meaner). But just the same, think it's unfair the way he treats Harry. He is a "superb occlumens", isn't he? He knows just by looking at Harry's eyes what's going on in his mind, he knows he doesn't like to be a "celebrity",etc; I think that his grudge is PART OF the reason why he's always so nasty to Harry; In Occlumency he pointed out Harry's "faults"; that is, sometimes the way Harry is makes him an easy target (it was so easy for Voldermort to lure him into the Ministry of Magic). I think Snape wants to bring out the best in Harry as the wizard who's "duty" is to defeat Voldermort. At the same time, I think his grudge makes it much more enjoyable to teach him these lessons (add to this that he is a bitter man).
Blast - Sep 26, 2003 6:18 pm (#195 of 644)
what is it about Snapes childhood that we dont know. Could it be that being from a disfunctional family he does not want to get to close to anybody and end up in the same disfunctional situation?
zixyer - Sep 26, 2003 10:35 pm (#196 of 644)
All right, I've held my tongue for a while but I don't think I can do it any more.
Occlumency is protecting your mind from external attack.
Legilimency is breaking into someone else's mind and extracting feelings and memories.
People mixing these up is becoming a big pet peeve of mine, I'm sorry if I'm being rude.
Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 9:26 am (#197 of 644)
No, thank you zixyer! I have a hard time keeping it straight, so it's nice when someone clarifies.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 27, 2003 11:28 am (#198 of 644)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 12:32 pm
Gina R. Snape: that was an excellent post (#175), it was as if you had taken my thoughts and posted them!
Madame Librarian: you said "maybe Snape keeps trying to get Harry expelled in order to send him "home" (Dursley house) where he is the safest. Or where Snape thinks he's the safest. Yes, Snape may detest Harry on one level, but for some mysterious reason wants Harry to survive and at the same time be out of his hair, greasy though it may be."
I must say I don't agree (that sounded so pompous, I might as well be Ernie Macmillan!hehe, but I didn't mean it in a pompous way, seriously). Anyway, Snape KNOWS that it's Harry's "duty" to defeat Voldermort, for that he needs proper training, if he goes back to the Dursley's he'll be safe, ok, but then who would get rid of Voldermort? As for all the times he's tried to get him expelled, I think it was in those moments that he let his grudge get the best of him. And as for all the times he's SAID "if it were up to me I'd have you expelled", I think that's just all talk.
Gina R Snape - Sep 27, 2003 5:07 pm (#199 of 644)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 6:07 pm
Thanks, Rose Marie. And, I agree on your last statement. It's very easy to spout "this is what I would do..." when you are not in charge. It is an entirely different matter when you are the decision-maker. And I wonder, were it up to him, what he would do. It would be a short-term pleasure for Snape to be rid of Harry Potter, but surely a long-term relief to be rid of the Dark Lord. And the only way to do that is by training up Harry Potter for the final face-off. Even Snape knows that, I'm sure.
zixyer - Sep 27, 2003 6:43 pm (#200 of 644)
We don't know that Snape knows that Harry needs to defeat Voldemort. Dubledore didn't even tell Prof. McGonagall the real reason that he left Harry with his relatives at the begining of book 1. I can't see him not telling McGonagall but telling Snape.
Personally, I hope Karkaroff is killed long before Moldy Voldy can question him.
And on the subject of the Death Eater trials...wouldn't one of the other DEs (say, Malfoy Sr.) know about Karkaroff's outburst and Dumbledore's reply? Wouldn't that have gotten back to Voldy? Because didn't Fudge say in book 4 that there were trial transcripts? If I were a DE, I would have read those things a long time ago...just to know what, if anything, was said about me.
S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 6:43 pm (#152 of 644)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 7:45 pm
That's assuming any of the DEs had access to them. They might be kept by the Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement head and even the Minister of Magic can't access them or can't show them to anyone....
I still don't know if Voldy would believe Karkaroff as he definately knows that he's a traitor and Snape has Lucius's word and his Occulemency going for him.....
popkin - Sep 22, 2003 7:08 pm (#153 of 644)
One of the things Voldy is really good at is knowing when someone is telling him the truth. If Karkaroff were given the chance to divulge information about Snape, I think it would be the end of Snape's spying career - unless, of course, he's a double agent.
Romulus - Sep 23, 2003 8:54 am (#154 of 644)
For me, the most interesting thing about Snape is the reaction we fans have to him. I can't think of a single canon instance of Snape doing something nice, whereas there are many examples of him being unfair, bullying etc. So why is he a favourite character of so many of us, me included? I think a big factor is the unreserved trust Dumbledore has for him. Contrast this to someone like Fudge, who has on occasion done the right thing, but is almost universally disliked by fans. What's the attraction of Severus?
popkin - Sep 23, 2003 9:48 am (#155 of 644)
At least one thing in Snape's favor is that Alan Rickman portrays him in the movies.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 23, 2003 10:24 am (#156 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 11:43 am
Probably the only thing...*greasy little slimeball*
Granted he is a very complex character, but going by canon alone, he's not exactly the swooning romantic figure that some people see him as.
Okay Snape people, let those tomatoes fly!
Neville Longbottom - Sep 23, 2003 10:38 am (#157 of 644)
Snape did save Harry's life in book 1. I liked him ever since this happened. And although Harry was in parts pretty annoying in book 5, I would say saving his life is a nice thing to do. ;-) Snape again helped saving Harry at the end of books 4 and 5.
schoff - Sep 23, 2003 10:43 am (#158 of 644)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 11:46 am
Yeah, that's what turned me too. Even though Snape is a very cruel individual, he helps save Harry, but in the background, so that's it's not immediately noticeable. I like the quiet background work that he does so that you're always going "Okay, is he really helping, or hindering?"--and it turns out he's usually helping. He's been instrumental in saving Harry's life in each book, whether knowingly (SS, GoF), unknowingly (CoS), or in quasi-good faith (PoA). And I read all four books before I even saw the first movie.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 10:53 am (#159 of 644)
Snape also allows JKR to give some comic relief. I mean, you do have to admit visualizing Snape with Neville's Gran's vulture hat is quite humorous, or young Severus being suspended upside-down so all can see his grey underwear. Thank goodness he wasn't going commando!
Sly Girl - Sep 23, 2003 11:29 am (#160 of 644)
I thought some might find this essay on the importance of Snape to the series, interesting. It's from the Harry Potter Prognostications website. It's long, but worth it and I think it ties into the other discussion we were having about Slytherin being a 'bad' house.
Many words can be used to describe Harry Potter (the boy, not the books). Courageous, brave, faithful. Some words can't. A good example of a word that can't be used to describe Harry is "perfect." Harry is not perfect.
The problem is that Harry would like to think that he is perfect. Any number of events in Harry's past could have contributed to this; the death of his parents, making him feel as if the world owed him something, or the sudden knowledge that he was a hero to the Wizarding World. Either way, Harry is not sufficiently in touch with his Dark Side. Throughout the books, we see the proverbial little red devil on Harry's shoulder sway him towards untoward actions. And all the while, Harry's ego is calmly ignoring the pleas of his conscience.
Try as he might to ignore the fact that he is not perfect, one person constantly reminds Harry of this fact:Snape. Time and again, just when Harry thinks he's on top of the world, Snape comes along and takes him down a few. From their first meeting in Book 1, Snape shows his contempt for Harry's self-righteousness. Repeatedly, he presents us with a clear and concise explanation as to why he feels this way: Harry is a boy who thinks he is above the rules, that he can decide for himself what is right.
The striking aspect of Snape's character, aside from his loathsomeness, is the fact that he is the exact opposite of Harry in this regard. Snape has shown he has the moral strength to not get down with his bad self. Despite his inclination towards the Dark Side, in which he indulges quite copiously in ruling his Potions class with iron-fist, when the big decisions come around, Snape makes the "right" choice. He chooses to defy Lord Voldemort, turning spy for Dumbledore (despite the fact that James and Sirius, his arch-rivals, would not only be on his side, but would be able to harp him for admitting his failure in judgment). He does this even when it puts him in danger; in Book 5 it is apparent that he has some contact, if not with Lord Voldemort himself, then at least with some of his Death Eaters.
In Book 5 we get a bit more history on Snape, when Harry delves into his memories in the Pensieve. What we learn of Snape is not pretty, but adds to our knowledge and understanding of him considerably. We learn, amongst other things, that as a boy, Snape liked to kill spiders with his wand, practicing the Unforgivable Curses. His family was, in a word, dysfunctional. He was disliked at school, despite being an exceptional student. And he was picked on and tortured by James and his gang, who relied on their house affiliation to keep their images pristine. As a result of years of this kind of pressure, Snape becomes the person who is today: a bitter, jaded and sometimes cruel soul.
Here we come to the crux of who Snape is, and what to expect from his character. Snape represents the injustice paid to people who have affiliations and connection they can not break to unfavorable elements of society. His natural tendencies are towards Slytherin, which really shouldn?t be a big deal. We see that Snape is able to make moral decisions in important situations. Yet he is still accused of being a Death Eater, and only the testimony of Albus Dumbledore saves him from Azkaban. Even after repeated events that should have convinced Harry and the Gang that he is trustworthy, Snape still finds himself having to win over the Gryffindor's trust and respect. Nonetheless, Snape stays true to himself, not compromising his identity to placate the masses into accepting him.
What Snape experiences is the exact opposite of the racism preached by Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort's elitism excludes all but the purest of blood. But the so-called inclusiveness heralded by the Gryffindor's in fact alienates those Slytherins who are not pure Evil, like Snape. Due to their association with the house that Voldemort built, they are branded as outcasts. True, so far no one in the books appears to exhibit redeeming qualities, but the prevailing attitude is "Kick out the Slytherins" and not, "Kick out the Bad Guys." But as soon as it becomes about the house and not the person, it?s the same racism espoused by Voldemort. No doubt Snape's dislike for Harry stems from this; within himself, he has conquered his Little-Red-Devil, making sacrifices beyond most others, yet he is still considered an outcast. Harry, on the other hand, quietly gives in to his desire quite frequently, yet is still publicly thought a hero. Harry pleaded with the Sorting Hat to keep him out of Slytherin, yet he calls on their powers ever so often, all the time wearing the pure badge of Gryffindor. Snape senses this hypocrisy, sees in himself the result of its distinctions, and fights back.
In the end, I think Snape will be presented with a choice, where if he makes the "right" decision, it will be detrimental to himself, and beneficial to Harry. This in turn will drive home to Harry the nature of his own selfishness, and cause him to consciously change his attitude. Snape will help Harry take a major step away from the James he saw in the Pensieve, towards a Harry that is able to look past his own insecurities and join together even with those he loathes. And he will be one step closer to fulfilling the advice of the Sorting Hat in Book 5; that all houses must work together in order to conquer Evil. Don?t forget, this was the major advice of the Sorting Hat in Book 5, and by the end we are no closer (in fact, we are much further) away from this goal than before. Snape may be the rare individual who has the power to join the two houses, of integrating the Lion and Snake into a single, whole beast, stronger and more terrible than Lord Voldemort can imagine.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 12:00 pm (#161 of 644)
Sly Girl, the essay about Snape was very very interesting, it explains and clarifies a whole lot, I'm glad you posted it. Well I did have one question before I even read your post, I'll post it anyway (even though your essay has proably answered my question. But still, I would like to see what people have to say about it).
One thing I thought about after I read the 5th book for the second time: how come Harry hates Snape even more? I mean, Harry admits that he didn't put any effort into his Occlumency lessons, he knows that he is, in some way, responsible for the death of Sirius. Not only that, but he knows that Snape got his message (back in Umbridge's office), that he contacted Sirius to see if he was OK, AND he went into the forest to look for Harry after seeing Sirius was fine.. so why does he hate him? Is it just because he feels guilty and thinks it more comfortable to place the blame on someone else, especially if that someone is a person he doesn't like at all to begin with? He should feel less resentful towards him,I think. But knowing Harry, I suppose the incrase in his dislike towards Snape is "understandable".
There is also one other thing; Snape dislikes Harry from the moment he sees him. I know he hated James, but why should he take it out on Harry? He didn't even give Harry a chance, I think this was very unfair.
S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 12:21 pm (#162 of 644)
Yeah, I think he increased resentment is just part of the grieving process....
Will Snape lay off Harry somewhat this next year, know what he knows about Harry and Sirius's relationship and Harry's part in Sirius's death, or will he dig into him even more in an attempt to finally get through to him that there are consequences for his actions? What does everyone think?
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 12:33 pm (#163 of 644)
Even though he has helped Harry in the past, for example the Quiddich match in PS/SS, there is still animosity between them. Snape still looks for ways to pick on Harry. It may be a matter of Snape allowing himself to "get back" at James for picking on him, but all the while maintain the life debt to James by saving Harry...often.
Gina R Snape - Sep 23, 2003 12:58 pm (#164 of 644)
Sly Girl, that is a wonderful essay. Thank you so much for posting it! I think we should direct a thread to it from Josh's thread on "what went wrong with the house of Slytherin" (exact title escapes me right now).
On the first EZBoard, I posted something about why I like Snape apart from Rickman. When I go home tonight I'll fish it out and repost it here. Because I do want to make the point that many of us love Snape entirely apart from Rickman, exceptional though his portrayal is.
Oh, and to the person who had the tomato-throwing smiley---very cute!
Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 1:06 pm (#165 of 644)
Sarah, to answer your question about whether Snape will lay off Harry a bit, I can almost see that happening in a real world situation, but in the Potterverse, I think book 6 will be too soon for them to starting getting along better. At least the beginning of book 6 would be too soon. So much of the emotional tone of the start of the school year is dependent upon Harry dreading Snape's classes. It would be a big departure for JKR to have them off on a better foot.
But, she is a very creative lady and could have a terrifically powerful opening with them starting to understand each other better. I have to remind myself that I was at first taken aback by the opening scenes in GoF. What is she doing? Where are those Dursleys? What's happenend to Dudders. But that scene at the Riddle house was great and sooo creepy. And, then the familiar pattern took over.
Ciao. Barb
Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 2:28 pm (#166 of 644)
Rose, I agree with Sarah -- I think the increased hatred right now is just a part of the grieving process. Harry is a very angry young man right now, and I don't think he'll resolve it right away. It will take time, probably a good part of Book 6 if not all of it. And, much as I like Snape's character (well, let's say "find Snape's character interesting" rather than "like"), I don't believe he'll exactly help Harry to like him more.
Very interesting and observant essay, Sly Girl.
S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 2:36 pm (#167 of 644)
Barb, I didn't say I thought they'd get along, I don't think they ever will. I was just pondering if Snape would lay off Harry, possibly at being asked to by DD, or if he would dig into him more. This will be a hard year for Harry because I think he'll still be grieving in Bk6, however, it is also the year he'll really have to start buckling down and focusing on his fight with Voldy, I hope....
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 2:48 pm (#168 of 644)
Like Mme. Pince, I don't so much like Snape as find him fascinating--what exactly, makes him tick, and what's he going to do next? Also, while I agree that his behavior is often exasperating, infuriating, or simply annoying, without knowing more I find it hard to be too judgmental--I've seen too much of the forces that produce messed-up people to condemn him out-of-hand, and I want to see what happens--is he going to achieve closure on his feud with James Potter, sort out his baggage, and achieve, if not inner peace, then at least some insight, and eventual redemption? Or is he heading for a cell with an ocean view at Azkaban, or a duel to the death with Nymphadora Tonks or Alastor Moody? Will he help save the day, or sell them all out at the last moment? Is he going to be a Judas, whose treachery is vital to the final victory, or has he been cooperating all along simply for a chance to score off Lucius Malfoy in settlement of a family feud, and once he has the keys to the Manor and ejects Narcissa and Draco, will he stop teaching and start raising flesh-eating orchids in genteel, if bad-tempered retirement, exclaiming to Harry and Voldilocks "My curse on both of you! Now go away, I need to repot an orchid!" [That last sentence was probably much too long, but I got carried away.]
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 2:50 pm (#169 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 3:55 pm
Fidelio- about your questions as to what will happen with Snape, they reflect my state of mind! (well only the part of my mind concerned with Snape), we know nothing about what's going to happen later on with him, so I ask myself a whole bunch of questions as I want to know more, then I have to think to myself "ok now this is getting out of hand", etc.
I don't think he'll be less hateful towards Harry. When Harry is about to hex Draco (I think it was the last day of term, in book 5), Snape takes points away from Gryffindor (because Harry was about to hex Malfoy); this isn't what tells me that his attitude towards doesn't change, it's obvious that he'll take points from Harry's house if he knows he was going to hex somebody; what does is that it says that Snape spoke to him "as coldly as ever" (I think that's the exact words). You know at first I wondered whether Snape would be "nicer" (in his own way, anyway) to Harry, knowing how much he's suffereing. But knowing Snape I don't think his attitute towards Harry will change (not until something happens between them, like someone saving someone's life, or them having to work together, or SOMETHING). Basically I think things will be the same between them (well except for the fact that Harry hates him more, I think he'll stop feeling this way when he comes to term with the fact that Snape is on their side).
schoff - Sep 23, 2003 2:54 pm (#170 of 644)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 3:54 pm
You know Rose Marie, I read that scene completely differently. I didn't get that Snape was taking points because Harry was going to hex Draco, but because Harry talked back to Snape. Snape actually seemed taken aback at Harry's answer to his question. I don't think he quite expected Harry to say that, or with such venom.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 23, 2003 2:58 pm (#171 of 644)
Hehe, maybe you're right. Either way, he'd find some way of taking points away anyway, he always does that with Harry, you know, he's always trying to make him tick, by bullying and so on.
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 3:25 pm (#172 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 4:26 pm
We still don't know if he's favoring Draco to cover up his spying, by seeming to be on the Malfoys' side, or if it's a genuine preference on his part. Of course, if he's still keeping up his cover, he's going to be looking for reasons to put Harry down in front of witnesses. Even if we could crack his skull open and look around, it wouldn't help much. Book 6 is expected when?!
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 23, 2003 3:27 pm (#173 of 644)
The man needs a girlfriend!
~Caitlin
fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 3:29 pm (#174 of 644)
He needs therapy first. Trust me--I've dated a Snape-like man. They need therapy first.
Gina R Snape - Sep 23, 2003 3:40 pm (#175 of 644)
Edited Sep 23, 2003 4:41 pm
::whistles, taps foot and looks around in response to Caitlin's remark:: Needs a girlfriend, indeed.
schoff, I agree with you. Snape has no way of knowing at this point that Harry hates him more than ever, and blames him for Sirius' death. But I think it will come out in book six as these two are forced to work together. Don't forget, Snape is looking forward to No More Potter In His Classroom. But we all know Dumbledore will make him let Harry take Potions anyway...
So, I went back to the EZBoard and found my post. Because it's a personal pet peeve of mine when I tell people I like Snape and they insist it's because of Alan Rickman, or assume all Snape fans are really just AR fans, etc. Not that the accusation has happened here. But someone did ask about people being Snape fans. So here goes.
---
I'd like to offer something of my POV regarding Snape, not the lust-after Rickman portrayal. But an honest examination of his character. So, please bear with me.
Snape does something for Harry's benefit in every single book. And he shows unprecedented loyalty to Dumbledore and the side of good.
The Snape I see is a complex and fascinating man. He's the kind of man who's been around the block a few times and has the scars to show it, but he's not yet reached an age where the tell-tale signs of wisdom, thoughtful reflection and patience start kicking in.
He's clearly had a hard life, even if we only know a smattering of details (we can make respectable guesses to fill in the gaps), and he's been around long enough to become hardened, cynical and embittered.
Yet there's still those traces of an angry young man: He harbours a lot of rage, resentment and jealousy, and has a nasty, often childish and petty, vindictive streak running through him (which is what many people seem to focus on). There's an underlying hint of an insecure person desperately seeking respect, who's worth in this world is constantly questioned by others, and is seemingly disappointed that he hasn't become more than he has.
He is extremely intelligent. His comments are seen as mean by the kids, but are often quite funny and sharp. And his interactions with McGonagall, for example, are biting but actually quite playful. However, children often do not understand sarcasm, and these books are written from Harry's POV. Which is why so many readers see him as a bad guy. But he is not. He is complicated. He is on the side of good, but he is not nice. Like Sirius says in OoP, the world is not made up of good people and death eaters.
Snape teaches a kind of tough love. He is not kind to the kids. But he is strategic. He makes sure they learn what he thinks they need to learn to ready themselves for what's out there. It was Snape who taught Harry Expelliarmus in book two. Which wound up saving his life in book 4. It is Snape who loses it in book 3 because -- and he tells Harry this-- so many people are working on his benefit to protect his life. He is frustrated with Harry because he and so many others are doing so much for his benefit. In fact, in PoA, Lupin tells Harry the same exact message as Snape, only Lupin is nice so Harry actually listens to him.
Snape has been watching over Harry and trying to get him to follow rules and learn how to think strategically (eg. when to keep his mouth shut) for five years for Harry's own protection. He just isn't nice about doing it, so people think he's an evil, greasy git.
What makes him attractive as a character is this combination of dark inner struggle, difficult past, extreme intelligence, snarkiness, committment to good, and battling his inner deamons and urges on what frankly seems like a daily basis. I want to know what horrors he faced as a death eater. It will make his turn-around all that more dramatic. Brave. Romantic. Heroic. Tragic. And funny. I laugh out loud at many of his "lines" in the book. It's a kind of black humour not everyone gets. I want to see how dark he has been and can become. It makes his struggle against it all the more real. All the more fascinating. It adds a depth to his character beyond many others in HP in my opinion. And this is all from the books and has nothing to do with Alan Rickman's fine portrayal.
Not that I am complaining about AR's portrayal. His ability to ooze nastiness, sex appeal, sarcasm, worldliness, swooping body language and other Snape traits was, to me, a most delightful added bonus.
My apologies to everyone who has now had to read this twice (once on EZBoard).
Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 8:00 pm (#176 of 644)
Bravo, Gina! An excellent summation. It should be on the Lexicon.
Weeny Owl - Sep 23, 2003 9:34 pm (#177 of 644)
Excellent observations, Gina.
I can agree with you on most of it. I do remember in CoS when Harry and Ron were wondering where Snape was, Snape is right behind them and really lets them have it. I thought that was hilrious and well-written.
I think Harry's hatred of Snape at the end of OotP is because of how Snape was goading Sirius about being a coward and staying in the house. Regardless of what Dumbledore said about Sirius being too old to react to such taunts, Harry may feel that even though he blames himself for most, if not all, of what led up to Sirius dying, that Sirius might have stayed at 12 Grimmauld Place if it hadn't been for Snape.
I can see how Snape's attitude about Harry makes a lot of sense in later books because of the constant rule breaking and such, but I still don't understand the utter loathing of an eleven-year-old boy who had never, at least at the beginning of his first year, ever done any harm to Snape.
I do find it interesting that Sirius and Snape both seem to be unable to separate the son from the father. Sirius acts sometimes as if his best friend is back while Snape acts as if his worst enemy is back. I'm sure they'd hate being compared to each other.
LilyP - Sep 23, 2003 11:09 pm (#178 of 644)
"Snape has been watching over Harry and trying to get him to follow rules and learn how to think strategically (eg. when to keep his mouth shut) for five years for Harry's own protection. He just isn't nice about doing it, so people think he's an evil, greasy git."
I am with you 100%. I think he knows what Harry has to potential to become and is unwilling to settle for the mediocrity that we see in most pre-teens. He expects Harry to rise above his circumstances and become truly great. I think it does become irksome to him at times because of the connection with James. I think Weeny Owl has a point about both men being unable to separate the two Potters. As we saw in the pensieve, James and Harry are not as alike as we had originally thought. I think it will take Snape time to realize this (like 2 more years) - or maybe he never will.
I guess I'm just glad there is someone at Hogwarts that is holding Harry to such a high standard. (Not that the other professors have low standards, mind you.) Harry is going to have to deal with horrors that no one (except maybe Dumbledore) can even imagine. I think the strength of character and perseverance building within Harry due to Snape's treatment will carry him a long way in the end.
popkin - Sep 24, 2003 12:09 am (#179 of 644)
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 1:14 am
I think you are giving Snape a little bit too much credit. While he has certainly protected Harry from harm in the past, he does not seem to be that interested in forming Harry's character. How many times has he sincerely wished to see Harry expelled? Was that to form Harry's character, or to be rid of him. Why did he quit trying to teach Harry occlumency? To be rid of him.
I see Snape having scruples about the most important things - life and death situations. However, in most matters, Snape seems to be concerned with his own agenda. He wants his own house to excell, to win at quiditch, to win the house cup, to win at one-upmanship. In order to achieve his goals, he is willing to sacrifice his other students' self-esteem, grades, and school careers.
And, JKR does not want us to like him. That's why she's written him as a beak nosed, greasy haired, sneering, conniving, childish, vindictive git.
Gina R Snape - Sep 24, 2003 9:31 am (#180 of 644)
Well, popkin. I have repeatedly noticed that JKR and her audience will sometimes disagree about who they like. I chalk that up to "taste." Yes, she knows what will happen in the future. But she also has her preferences along with everyone else. She herself said she'd like to be a Gryffindor. How many of us would rather be a Ravenclaw or Slytherin or Hufflepuff for example?
Aside from that, I think she's created a bit of a "front" or "red herring." She sets Snape up to look bad, and it masks the good he's doing. I thought that was pretty clear at the end of OoP when Dumbledore tells Harry everything Snape did behind the scenes. Even going so far as to show concern for Sirius' safety. But then, I also thought that was clear in PS/SS and we are still debating that 4 books later.
Alas, I firmly believe we readers will debate this until well beyond the 7th book. But what JKR has told us is that sometimes Snape takes advantage of his position (for his own amusement I think, when the consequences aren't dire) and that we shouldn't feel "too sorry" for him. With that, I think she means that he's had a hard lot in life, but he has brought some of his own misery on himself. And who of us hasn't had some that in our lifes?
As I see it, the only time he really messed up was ending the Occlumency lessons. But in truth, Dumbledore should've known better than to set him and Harry up that way. And Harry did something very wrong (breaking a major major boundary) precipitating that reaction. In the end, we all have limits to our capabilities (both skill and emotional) and Snape is no exception here.
(pauses to breathe)
And I am a firm believer that he either puts something in his hair to keep it from setting fire over all those cauldrons, or it only looks greasy, but it's really just super shiny, fine and soft. hee
Neville Longbottom - Sep 24, 2003 10:02 am (#181 of 644)
I agree with you Gina. And about the occlumency lessons: Harry didn't practise anyway, therefore I doubt it would have been much of a difference, if Snape had continued the lessons. Still, that doesn't exuse his behaviour in that case, of course.
Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 10:19 am (#182 of 644)
Just occurred to me--maybe Snape keeps trying to get Harry expelled in order to send him "home" (Dursley house) where he is the safest. Or where Snape thinks he's the safest. Yes, Snape may detest Harry on one level, but for some mysterious reason wants Harry to survive and at the same time be out of his hair, greasy though it may be.
I find Snape and Petunia to be two of the most befuddling characters. I don't think their stories will unwind fully until the very end of book 7.
Ciao. Barb
timrew - Sep 24, 2003 11:09 am (#183 of 644)
Edited Sep 24, 2003 12:10 pm
"That's why she's written him as a beak nosed, greasy haired, sneering, conniving, childish, vindictive git."
I think you should realise, popkin, that nobody's perfect.
Lisaren - Sep 25, 2003 6:55 am (#184 of 644)
Edited Sep 25, 2003 7:57 am
Popkin, I must say I agree completely and could not have said it better.
In response to the essay (post #160), I do not believe the essay is correct in its treatment of Harry. Snape shows his dislike of Harry on his first day at Hogwarts. There is no way he could know anything about Harry's character without first talking to him. He made Harry of victim of the Snape/James/Sirius war that should have ended 20 years ago. Harry does not feel he is always right any more so than any teenager. As a matter of fact, the abuse he has received at the Dursley's has in most ways made him more sympathetic toward the other characters in the story. He does have an issue with discussing his problems with an adult. Oops, this looks like it should go to the Harry thread, but I am unable to believe Snape's treatment of any of the kids in the story is to teach them anything.
I think Snape is a childish, selfish git who understands the big things as Popkin said, but lets his own fears, vendettas, and bitterness affect his daily dealing with those weaker than himself (the typical bully).
Susurro Notities - Sep 25, 2003 9:46 am (#185 of 644)
Edited by Sep 25, 2003 11:08 am
I sincerely regret not having read this thread earlier. I would like to post a response to Madam Pince regarding post #64. Madam Pince brought this to my attention on a different thread where my response would not be appropriate. Sorry about this interuption in the current discussion. (I do think there are some connections between this theory and the current discussions regarding Snape and Harry's relationship but I am too tired to type them now.)
Madam Pince,
I read it last night. I thought it was brilliant, so well thought out. Thank you for reposting it and for bringing my attention to it. I had a couple of observations about about your theory. 1. I thought Lily's mom must have been a witch or dad wouldn't want to marry her. Lily's father was a muggle. Thus Lily is a (forgive me) 'mudblood' 2. Snape's use of the word 'mudblood' might have been something he learned in the orphanage. He may have held on to his purebred status as a way to set him apart from the other kids. Therefore they were mudbloods. 3. Dad was abusive but his anger was misplaced youthful rage. With aging he mellowed - I know from experience that can happen! 4. Unfortunately dad's maturing did not include rescuing Snape from the orphanage. I have known a couple of men who had nice families and wives and were nice guys and then found out that they had a troubled youth complete with bad marriages and children that they no longer associated with. These men seem afraid that to include children from former marriages will taint their current families. Unfortunately some of these children are so angry, justifiable so, that they would be unable to integrate peacefully into a family. They would in fact be disruptive and damaging to a family. What horrible messes adults make when they fail to see the consequences of their actions and almost without exception it is the children who suffer the most.
I love the idea of Mark Evens being Snape's son. JKR said that OoP had to be long because she had to include information so that later fans would not be saying 'where did that come from'. I am convinced that Mark Evens is one of those things. If your theory is right it would also fit with the statement JKR made that some of the Hogwarts professors are married. If all of this is correct then we can look forward to an interesting plot twist involving Snape and his family.
LilyP - Sep 25, 2003 1:46 pm (#186 of 644)
Actually, in that same interview (I think), she mentioned that in the future books we would be learning more about professors' spouses. I need to look for my source. I'll add it in if I find it. Does anyone else remember reading this somewhere?
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 25, 2003 1:54 pm (#187 of 644)
I remember hearing about it in the St. Mungo's Fallout Shelter while we were waiting for Book 5 to come out...
~Caitlin
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 25, 2003 2:48 pm (#188 of 644)
I remember seeing it too, but after Book 5 came out. But I can't remember where I saw it.
virgoddess1313 - Sep 25, 2003 3:43 pm (#189 of 644)
In PoA, no doubt Snape knew the truth about Sirius, but, he held a grudge, so naturally, why would he want to save him? Snape was going to tell the story that gave him the glory. He's only human, right? Sure he's bitter and yeah, it wasn't the right way to go, but Snape and Sirius had been enemies for years. Sirius had made Snape look like an idiot while they were in school, and now Snape had the chance to be the hero for once.
And as far as Dumbledore and his trust of Snape goes, I think there is quite a bit too it, which, doubtless, we will be privy too later on.
Susurro Notities - Sep 25, 2003 5:00 pm (#190 of 644)
Edited by Sep 25, 2003 6:00 pm
The interview in which she mentions the spouses is: Comic Relief interview, 12 March, 2001. There is a link to it in the Lexicon.
S.E. Jones - Sep 25, 2003 7:53 pm (#191 of 644)
Comic Relief, 12 March 2001:
Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
A: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 26, 2003 11:12 am (#192 of 644)
OOooh I can't wait! Does anyone have any idea when the 6th book is or might be coming out?
Olivia Wood - Sep 26, 2003 2:25 pm (#193 of 644)
I'm betting on July 2005, for no particular reason. : )
Anyway, back to Snape. I love him, he's so well written, but I didn't really like Alan Rickman's portrayal of him at all, so I assure you all that my interpretation of book Snape is not being tainted. I don't think Snape is being mean to the kids to teach them a lesson, or to keep up his cover (although that might be the reason he favors Draco) or anything like that, I think he just doesn't like children. I wouldn't be surprised if thats one of the things he regrets most about becoming a Death Eater; it eventually forced him to spend 15 years teaching potions to a bunch of annoying, incompetent, spoiled brats. Just how overqualified is he?
I actually think I'd get along pretty well with Snape. Overly-nice people are annoying. They always seem insencere and shallow and all that, Snape has much bigger concerns than to worry himself about offending a bunch of 11-year-olds. I actually think he'd dislike Harry even if he didn't have a personal grudge against his father. He just seems like the type of person who would go against popular opinion just on principle, and he's got good reason for it.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 26, 2003 2:42 pm (#194 of 644)
Olivia Wood- I love Snape as well (I liked A.Rickman but I imagine Snape to be even meaner). But just the same, think it's unfair the way he treats Harry. He is a "superb occlumens", isn't he? He knows just by looking at Harry's eyes what's going on in his mind, he knows he doesn't like to be a "celebrity",etc; I think that his grudge is PART OF the reason why he's always so nasty to Harry; In Occlumency he pointed out Harry's "faults"; that is, sometimes the way Harry is makes him an easy target (it was so easy for Voldermort to lure him into the Ministry of Magic). I think Snape wants to bring out the best in Harry as the wizard who's "duty" is to defeat Voldermort. At the same time, I think his grudge makes it much more enjoyable to teach him these lessons (add to this that he is a bitter man).
Blast - Sep 26, 2003 6:18 pm (#195 of 644)
what is it about Snapes childhood that we dont know. Could it be that being from a disfunctional family he does not want to get to close to anybody and end up in the same disfunctional situation?
zixyer - Sep 26, 2003 10:35 pm (#196 of 644)
All right, I've held my tongue for a while but I don't think I can do it any more.
Occlumency is protecting your mind from external attack.
Legilimency is breaking into someone else's mind and extracting feelings and memories.
People mixing these up is becoming a big pet peeve of mine, I'm sorry if I'm being rude.
Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 9:26 am (#197 of 644)
No, thank you zixyer! I have a hard time keeping it straight, so it's nice when someone clarifies.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 27, 2003 11:28 am (#198 of 644)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 12:32 pm
Gina R. Snape: that was an excellent post (#175), it was as if you had taken my thoughts and posted them!
Madame Librarian: you said "maybe Snape keeps trying to get Harry expelled in order to send him "home" (Dursley house) where he is the safest. Or where Snape thinks he's the safest. Yes, Snape may detest Harry on one level, but for some mysterious reason wants Harry to survive and at the same time be out of his hair, greasy though it may be."
I must say I don't agree (that sounded so pompous, I might as well be Ernie Macmillan!hehe, but I didn't mean it in a pompous way, seriously). Anyway, Snape KNOWS that it's Harry's "duty" to defeat Voldermort, for that he needs proper training, if he goes back to the Dursley's he'll be safe, ok, but then who would get rid of Voldermort? As for all the times he's tried to get him expelled, I think it was in those moments that he let his grudge get the best of him. And as for all the times he's SAID "if it were up to me I'd have you expelled", I think that's just all talk.
Gina R Snape - Sep 27, 2003 5:07 pm (#199 of 644)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 6:07 pm
Thanks, Rose Marie. And, I agree on your last statement. It's very easy to spout "this is what I would do..." when you are not in charge. It is an entirely different matter when you are the decision-maker. And I wonder, were it up to him, what he would do. It would be a short-term pleasure for Snape to be rid of Harry Potter, but surely a long-term relief to be rid of the Dark Lord. And the only way to do that is by training up Harry Potter for the final face-off. Even Snape knows that, I'm sure.
zixyer - Sep 27, 2003 6:43 pm (#200 of 644)
We don't know that Snape knows that Harry needs to defeat Voldemort. Dubledore didn't even tell Prof. McGonagall the real reason that he left Harry with his relatives at the begining of book 1. I can't see him not telling McGonagall but telling Snape.
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Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 7:00 pm (#201 of 644)
In fact, if I remember correctly, Dumbledore told Harry that the only two people who know the (full) prophecy are himself and Harry.
popkin - Sep 28, 2003 1:41 am (#202 of 644)
Snape may have learned something of the prophecy from Voldemort. Do we know exactly when he left LV's service? Was it before or after the prophecy was made? Before or after LV's fall?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 28, 2003 11:07 am (#203 of 644)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 12:10 pm
Well maybe Snape knows, just because we haven't seen anyone telling him about the prophecy, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, I mean, we didn't see him go into the forest to fetch Harry but we know he did,right? Maybe Dumbledore doesn't know he knows...or something! Actually I'm not so sure of the theory myself.
But anyway, I mean we never knew about the prophecy but I think deep down inside we always knew that it was either Harry or Voldermort,right? We knew all along that it was Harry who would have to defeat him, a man of Snape's intelligence would have guessed that too.
Weeny Owl - Sep 28, 2003 11:16 am (#204 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "We knew all along that it was Harry who would have to defeat him, a man of Snape's intelligence would have guessed that too."
Snape may never have given Harry a thought until he arrived at Hogwarts with his scar, and you're right... Snape has the intelligence to figure out that there is still something going on between Voldie and Harry.
The whole "life-debt" thing in the first book may account for him protecting Harry in the first year, but definitely by the end of GoF, Snape knew Voldie would be after Harry. I'm sure he's figured out something even if he doesn't know exactly what the prophecy involves.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 28, 2003 11:45 am (#205 of 644)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 12:45 pm
Yes you're right, he HAD tried to expell him before Voldermort's come back. But still if it wasn't just all talk, his grudge got the best of him.
From now on, I think Snape won't even suggest Harry's expulsion, now that he knows there's something between him and Voldie.
I think Dumbledore wouldn't expell Harry even if he set the common room sofa on fire on purpose (which he never would,anyway); his mission is far more important. Snape knows this now.
Weeny Owl - Sep 28, 2003 2:54 pm (#206 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "I think Dumbledore wouldn't expell Harry even if he set the common room sofa on fire on purpose (which he never would,anyway); his mission is far more important. Snape knows this now."
I know there's a lot of speculation as to the new DADA teacher, and Snape did say when Umbridge was inspecting his class that he keeps applying for the job, but regardless of whether or not he is DADA teacher or continues with potions, I would hope Snape wouldn't let his grudges go too far with trying to get Harry kicked out of school. Of course, you're right... Dumbledore wouldn't allow it.
Even if Harry and Snape never get along, I'd at least like to see them having a conversation where they acknowledge that while they detest each other, they'll both try to work together for Voldie's defeat and the betterment of the Wizarding World.
JKR has so many options with dear Severus, so there's no way of know quite what she has planned.
Madam Pince - Sep 28, 2003 10:42 pm (#207 of 644)
Susurro, so glad you liked my theory. I think you're the only one who does. (ha!)
I think that, as of OoP, Snape certainly knows that Harry is something special, because Dumbledore asked him to do the Occlumency lessons. Dumbledore must've given him some sort of reason for doing so.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 29, 2003 8:37 am (#208 of 644)
Well, one possibility could be Snape becoming the DADA teacher in book 6. It just occured to me, but at the same time I don't really think it's true.
I think DD has a very important reason as to why he doesn't allow Snape to be the DADA teacher; I think it will be something big and we'll be finding out why, no doubt!
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 29, 2003 3:27 pm (#209 of 644)
Edited Sep 29, 2003 4:27 pm
There we go! I want to know why Dumbledore won't let Severus be the DADA teacher (he would have been a vast improvement over allowing Umbridge or Lockheart speard their nonsense around). It seems to me that if someone wanted to be a teacher of a certain subject so badly, you might as well let them have a crack at it. But, knowing Dumbledore, he has a solid reason behind it. I, for one, would like to be let in on the big mystery.
~Caitlin
Grant the Great - Sep 29, 2003 5:03 pm (#210 of 644)
OK, I think I said this before already, but here it goes . . .
I read in an interview with JKR (I can't remember which one, if someone knows, please tell) that someone asked why Snape hasn't been given the position. She explained (without giving away too much, of course) that Snape first applied for the DADA position over Potions, but Dumbledore (in his seemingly infinite wisdom) basically told him, "Well, let's see how you do with Potions first." (not an exact quote). Anyway, that's the basic idea. Now, I hereby officially open the discussion for why Dumbledore didn't give it to him in the first place (OK, please don't stone me monitors, I was only joking!)
Personally, I hope it isn't as simple as, let's prove your allegiance to the Dark Lord is vanquished completely before you begin to tell these kids about how to avoid Dark Magic, especially when you were a child prodigy (OK, I can't think of the right word, is that right?) in the Dark Arts at school. Any other opinions?
Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:06 pm (#211 of 644)
That was from the Royal Albert Hall interview, just after the release of OotP.
I searched around to find the reference, but all of my favorite JKR interview databases seemed to not have the RAH transcript yet. Oh well.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 29, 2003 5:41 pm (#212 of 644)
Is it more speculation on the students part that Severus prefers the DADA spot?
Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:52 pm (#213 of 644)
We know from his interview with Umbridge that he has been regularly applying for the DADA position, and Dumbledore isn't ready to give him the job.
Susurro Notities - Sep 29, 2003 6:41 pm (#214 of 644)
Royal Albert Hall Interview: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
popkin - Sep 29, 2003 7:54 pm (#215 of 644)
Edited by Sep 29, 2003 8:56 pm
The Royal Albert Hall interview is also on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .
I thought I read somwhere that JKR said Snape never got the DADA position because Dumbledore knew it would bring out the worst in Snape.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 30, 2003 3:14 am (#216 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:15 am
Could he be worse than he already is in Potions? I don't know, I think it's because of something that's happened...just a hunch.
Sinister Kittens - Sep 30, 2003 3:35 am (#217 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:36 am
I always thought that he was too good at Potions. It has been mentioned before that he is capable of producing the most difficult potions (Lupin, I think?). But, having said that, maybe DD did not want him tempted by the Dark Arts?
Veela3173 - Sep 30, 2003 4:41 am (#218 of 644)
I really thinks that Snape really had something good inside his heart, if you compares Draco malfoy and Severus snape type,who will you choose? if you ask me perhaps i will choose Snape because he had a tiny little good heart but DRACO!! just....i cant describe it.But SK (if i can call you that) Is right he just too good for poisons i mean potion.. but Snape have to traine his patient for having teachers favourite students Harry,ron,Hermione and of course Neville longbottom
Sinister Kittens - Sep 30, 2003 5:14 am (#219 of 644)
Veela3173, of course you can call me that. You might want to have a quick look at the Philosophy of the Forum before a moderator finds you though! And don't forget to introduce yourself as well, it's always nice to meet more HP fans. (But thank you for agreeing with me).
!!!!!LauraAngel - Sep 30, 2003 9:13 am (#220 of 644)
We know that Snape is good at Potions. As SK says, he's produced some difficult potions. But we also knows that he's good at Dark Arts (think Sirius once mentioned it). He was fascinated by the Dark Arts and could do very difficult spells in a young age.
I'm I wrong or didn't Snape seem very humain in OP when he was "tortured" by James? Maybe he isn't such a bad guy after all, but have just been forced to be or pretend to be all his life...
Consider his fascination of the Dark Arts, maybe the Sorting Hat only placed him in Slytherin House because of that. And assuming he is a Pure Blood (he is, right?) maybe his 'evil' family expected him to get into Slytherin House (like Ron) and the Sorting Hat allowed him to have something to say in the decision (Harry) and that's how he ended up in Slytherin ...
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 30, 2003 9:45 am (#221 of 644)
I am not sure I would want him teaching DADA. Look at the way he treats non-Slytherins in potions and how he was in PoA when he substituted for Lupin. Students not in his favor would not do well in a very important subject.
Emily - Sep 30, 2003 1:48 pm (#222 of 644)
I always thought that Snape didn't get the DADA post because he had once been a Death Eater. But considering how much DD trusts him in everything else, I guess there must be something else; something bigger maybe? Is that even possible? Being on the subject, I want to know what made him finally convert to DD's side.(Did I phrase that correctly?)Sorry for being off topic, but I'm just so curious!
timrew - Sep 30, 2003 2:41 pm (#223 of 644)
HAS he converted to DD'd side, Marauder5? The guy is such a slippery character; and even JKR has told us not to get too fond of him.
Is Severus Snape a double agent, a double-double agent, or what?
LilyP - Sep 30, 2003 3:39 pm (#224 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:41 pm
Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. The alliance between Snape and the order is definitely questionable. Although, Dumbledore trusts him. He is repeatedly questioned about this trust, and he sticks to it. So, that makes me think we can, in fact, trust him. That said, I am of the thought that now would be a good time to consider Snape for the DADA position. It would free up the position of potions for someone else, who might actually be able to teach Harry something. I think Harry's strength in the DADA field will help him endure Snape's- well, shall we say personality quirks. Harry is easily intimidated in potions class, and therefore he has not had time to build his confidence. He has the confidence in DADA, so he could withstand a little abuse from Snape better. Snape could also take Harry to the advanced levels of DADA that he will need, not for the NEWTs, but for his final battles with Voldemort.
(OK - upon reading this, I think it might fit better on the DADA thread, but I'll leave it here for now, because I think it is also along the lines of the current discussion. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sorry and I'll try to do better next time. I'd put a sad face smiley here - if I had the time to figure out how to do it).
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 5:39 pm (#225 of 644)
Yes, DD is human, subject to "flaws of human nature," but i've come to see that when DD is sure of something, HE'S SURE OF SOMETHING. There's no hesitation in him when it comes to trusting Snape, or expressing to Harry or to whoever that he does. Just like Rose Marie said, this could sound like a "last resort" attempt to plead with the fact that Snape really IS on our side (hehe) but i just KNOW that Snape is not with the DE's. It's too obvious, it's something too many people would imagine. Then again it may be something that J.K. Rowling knows that people will think and then think that because it's "too obvious" it can't be that he's a DE (is everyone following me? hehe) and so he may be a DE after all. But i very, very, seriously doubt it. I don't think that Rowling would be going so much in depth into his character (however slowly she may be doing it, to keep us is complete and desperate anticipation!) if he really WAS on the "dark" side. you know what i mean? I think, as Rose Marie (my sister, by the way!), and many others think as well, is one of the most fascinating characters of the whole story. Both him and DD are. Maybe DUMBLEDORE is a DE! JUST JOKING!!!!! hahaha...no, seriously, Snape is one of my FAVOURITE characters - the most mysterious and fascinating. I think that one of the reasons that Rowling has him in the story, as the ANTAGONIST (who doesn't necessarily HAVE to be bad or evil, mind you), is to have both him and Harry learn from each other. One is what the other isn't. Or maybe the have more in common what they or even WE think? I'll try to into that in more detail in a future post... But anyway, Snape and Harry will grow more as people by learning from each other. It's stared in OoP with Harry finding Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve, and with Snape "seeing" Harry's thoughts during the Occlumency lessons. Both will realize that maybe both aren't really that different, that Harry isn't THAT much like his father after all, and that Snape probably really has a vulnerable and noble side as Harry would see it. I saw somewhere in these Snape posts someone saying that there probably will be some kind of "understanding" between the both of them. I think it's going to be a little more than that. Let me dare to say that i think there's probably going to be a kind of respect between them by the end of the series. YOU ALL MARK MY WORDS!!! It's the feeling deep down inside my gut that things will end up ok between Harry and Snape. Then again, maybe not, being that that's what maybe many people would like to happen but it isn't necessarily like that in real life - but I think that it'll be ok. Like I already said in another post, agreeing with someone else (the words had been taken from my mouth! haha), I'm pretty sure Snape is probably going to risk his life (and most probably lose it) by saving Harry from Volilock's final blow, AFTER Harry's and Snape's coming-to-terms-with-eachother. All of this rambling is making me realize more and more that Snape probably IS one of THE most important characters in the series. The perfect antagonist. The Harry-Snape issue/sub-plot/story or whatever you want to call it is one of the central issues in the series. I just can't see Snape ending up as one of the DE's after all. Nope.
Grant the Great - Sep 30, 2003 6:20 pm (#226 of 644)
Pisceswicca, I know that maybe your post isn't enough to suggest reading the Philosophy of the Forum, but I think your ideas would be a LOT easier to read if you put them in paragraphs. One hit of "ENTER" isn't enough, you have to hit it twice. Thanks! Oh, and sorry if that came out as rude; I always try to avoid it, but I'm not always successful!
Now, on my opinion of Snape, I think I have posted this question before, but no one seemed to have a sure answer in their opinion. What does everyone think about whether Snape will continue the Occlumency lessons? Also, has anyone wondered whether Harry will delve into Legimency (did I spell that right?)? All right, ya'll, slash away at my post!
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 6:29 pm (#227 of 644)
Yes, Rose Marie, I agree on you with that one. I think that Snape really DOES know the wizard that Harry is and that WILL be, and that he really does have what it takes to become a great, great, and powerful wizard, but I also do agree with what you said about his quiting the Occlumency lessons and him being nasty to Harry being the "grudges getting the better of him." Remember, no one is perfect, and Snape certainly isn't either. He's been scarred very deep by people around him his whole life. You may even know it yourself, and KNOW that just because certain things have happened to you it doesn't give you an excuse to be, in turn, nasty to others. But infortunately human nature doesn't always act according to what we LOGICALLY know and feel. Our subconscious demons come out and play with our minds, making us do and say things that deep down inside in our conscious minds we KNOW are wrong. And there's Snape for you. He ain't perfect, he let's the worst get the better of him sometimes. Just like DD - he's not perfect either. He's made big mistakes as well. He talked about it with Harry in OoP.
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 7:36 pm (#228 of 644)
Ok, I have a few ideas about the Snape I'd like to run by you all. Maybe I'm repeating myself in some of them, and I profusely apologize in advance if I seem to be ranting and raving. It's just that I have all these thoughts and things that I want to say as a result of reading each and every one of the posts here for Snape, that I'd like to put them all out now before I forget. Some of these are remarks to many of the posts I've just read. Sorry if right now at this moment I can't place the comments I'm responding to to their authors!
Snape and Petunia: I think that Petunia, just like Snape, is another of THE mystereious characters in the books. Book 5 is where my mind made this "click" and things and ideas started coming up. I think that Petunia has more to do with the wizarding world than we know and that she'd like to know. But that's for another post. As for the connection to Snape, I'm not sure if there's as much as a DIRECT connection to Snape but the fact that they're both protecting Harry, as much as they "dislike" him, to say the least, is very curious indeed.
"Snape being mean to Harry with permission from DD" (or something like that...): Mmmmmmmm....interesting.... It's interesting in the fact that yes, it does give room for Harry to "toughen up" as a result of this. I don't know if DD "gives him permission" but rather, perhaps, just merely doesn't DO much about it because whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? And Harry Potter needs all the strength, guts, bravery, fierce qualities, that he can acquire. I also know that DD addresses the problems he thinks he should address. He doesn't do or not do anything for no reason. He's on top of it all - at least where HIS actions are concerned.
On the other hand, Snape's grudges and demons he obviously internally deals with are something that fall under "human nature," and DD can try to do all he can from preventing Snape from outwardly doing something REALLY bad to Harry (if he did, hypothetically), but he can't control a person's feelings.
Snape's "hate" and grudges against Harry: The question of whether Harry and Snape will actually come to amends and maybe like each other or not has arisen a few times, and people have had many opinions, and I may be repeating myself with this, but I'm going to emphasize what i believe - that maybe Snape and Harry won't really learn to actually "love" each other but I'm pretty sure there will be a certain level of respect that'll grow. Snape's finding things out about Harry - in turn, Harry is finding a lot of things out about Snape. They've both gone through ugly experiences and pain. Rowling puts so much explanation (although a little at a time) into their relationship and about their characters, I think that the both will learn things about each other that they never imagined they would. Snape will learn that maybe Harry IS different to the way James was when HE was Harry's age. And Harry will learn, probably, that Snape is someone he'll come to respect.
Harry's increased hate towards Snape after the deathe of Sirius: I agree with whoever mentioned something along the lines of Harry blaming Sirius' leaving 12 Grimmauld Place on Snape's taunts of Sirius. To Harry, maybe that's what drove Sirius out of there, and him being out of there killed him in the long run.
Another thing - it's natural for him to have this increased hate for him after his death. Snape said things that were HORRIBLE to Harry! They seem even more horrible now that Sirius is dead. Now, I've never had anyone that close to me leave me in that way, but I can imagine that when you love someone that way and they die, you remember the mean things a certain person might have said about them. This creates a new and more intense kind of hate. The person you love just DIED, and here you are, with one of the people you hate the most, who said all these horrible things about that person, still alive and well. Not that he wanted Snape dead or anything, but he'd just said those things about one of the only people he truly loved - it's like an insult to their memory.
Snape and Harry getting along better?? MMMM...well, like some other people have just said, I don't see this happening until later on either. It's going to happen in Book 7. 6 is too soon. We still have a lot of things to find out about Snape and DD and other characters before there's some kind of closure on this issue. We JUST are beginning to find out about Snape, but REALLY finding out about him, in Book 5. I think that the Harry-Snape story is only one of the most important ones of the series, and with something like that there's no climax until the end. Anticipation, anticipation!
Ok, those were a few things that caught my attention about a few posts. I hope you're all still awake and well and that I didn't bore you to death! :-D
Weeny Owl - Sep 30, 2003 7:53 pm (#229 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 8:54 pm
I don't think Snape will continue Occlumency lessons with Harry. Either Dumbledore will or he'll find someone else who can take a more gentle approach than what amounts to a nuclear explosion in Harry's mind.
While Snape understands the subtlety necessary for potions, when it comes to emotions, even if he removes some memories, he's still too preoccupied with tormenting Harry to be effective.
As for Snape being a Death Eater? I don't think he is on Voldie's side, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's on the side of good either. It's been mentioned on the Lucius thread that Lucius and Snape may have another plan entirely, and it wouldn't surprise me if Snape truly wants Voldie defeated so that he could become the next "Incredibly Powerful Dark Arts Wizard of the century." After all, he alredy has a group of potential Death Eaters of his own with seven years of Death Nibblers wandering around the Slytherin common room.
Get their fathers and Voldie defeated, channel their anger, and there's no way of telling what Snape could become.
That doesn't mean I see it as a viable scenario, but it's a possibility, however remote.
Crackoff Smirnoff - Sep 30, 2003 8:20 pm (#230 of 644)
Hiya Kids - I'm a newbie and this is all fascinating. Here's my .02.
I think that Snape's connection to the Dark Lord is directly through Lucius Malfoy. I have no doubt that he did pay his homage to Voldemort, at Dumbledore's urging, soon after he returned to his body in GoF.
I don't care what JK says, I seem to think that Snape's intentions are honorable. Yes he is horrible to Harry and does not miss an opportunity to publicly humiliate "the Famous Harry Potter" He obviously has an axe to grind with James whether it is jealously in in atheleticism, magical skill and no doubt the amorous desire for the for the same young and tantilizing witch. A desire fueled by the hope that "it" could actually happen as she rushes to publicly defend him as he is being hazed by his classmates.
Let's not forget the obvious competitive nature of the Hogwarts wizarding community. This competetive spirit is not denied by the students, who have a long history of hexing each other. Nor by the Staff who are alarmingly loyal to their Houses. Perhaps Snape's episodes grandstanding are fueled by this competetiveness and this sense of house loyalty. Examples being that McGonnagall wasted no time in recruiting Harry as a seeker, even though Madam Hooch clearly outlined the consequences of unauthorized flight. The blatant and historically acknowledged acceptance of cheating in the TWC. This could explain some of Snape public fdisplays of nastiness in regards to Harry especially in the presence of the progeny of confirmed Death Eaters. I can see an owl carrying a parchment that read something like "Don't worry about Snape Dad, he'd squash that Mudblood Potter in an instant if Dumbldore wasn't around."
To his honor there are numerous instances where Snape did rescue Harry and his thankless entourage. Did he show up at the shreiking shack thinking that he would find Sirius? Or did he go down the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, with a freshly brewed goblet of homebrew to save his students from an inevitable encounter with a dangerous half-breed, considering the point in the Lunar Calendar Only to find the icing on the cake, Sirius standing right in front of him. (How long was he standing there in the invisibility cloak before he announced his presence?)
I hope that there is a lot of Snape in the next book. JK has some explaining to do.
A couple of not so extended comments. In the film CoS was Lucius saying Avaada...when Dobby flew to the rescue?
Is Bagman the cowardly Death Eater?
I fantasize that Edie McCLurg, principal Rooney's secretary in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, plays Delores Umbridge in the Movie.
Grant the Great - Sep 30, 2003 8:48 pm (#231 of 644)
Welcome to the board! I like your thoughts on Snape, but we try to keep other thoughts on the appropriate threads here. You might want to consider posting them somewhere else! Thanks a bunch!
schoff - Sep 30, 2003 9:12 pm (#232 of 644)
Edited by Sep 30, 2003 10:12 pm
Paul Brown: A couple of not so extended comments. In the film CoS was Lucius saying Avaada...when Dobby flew to the rescue?
Yeah. It sure sounded like it to me!
Is Bagman the cowardly Death Eater?
I know these threads are really cumbersome to weed through. We talked about this a little earlier on this thread, but the second one's an archived thread you might be interested in:
popkin 9/17/03 8:28pm
Jimmy Bell ""Three dead in my service ... " Who is the Mystery Death Eater?" 8/27/03 3:48pm
I fantasize that Edie McCLurg, principal Rooney's secretary in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, plays Delores Umbridge in the Movie.
Ooh! What a great idea! I can totally see her in this part! You should post this on the casting thread, I bet they'd love to read it!
timrew "-- Discussions about the Cast of any HP movie." 9/30/03 4:07pm
Welcome to the Forum, Paul. Don't forget to Tell Us About Yourself. We always love to hear from new people!
popkin - Sep 30, 2003 11:15 pm (#233 of 644)
Quote from Paul Brown: "To his honor there are numerous instances where Snape did rescue Harry and his thankless entourage. Did he show up at the shreiking shack thinking that he would find Sirius? Or did he go down the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, with a freshly brewed goblet of homebrew to save his students from an inevitable encounter with a dangerous half-breed, considering the point in the Lunar Calendar Only to find the icing on the cake, Sirius standing right in front of him. (How long was he standing there in the invisibility cloak before he announced his presence?)"
Good catch! I always assumed Snape went to the shrieking shack to catch Harry and company being bad and to make sure they were properly punished. I never made the connection that Snape made this same trip once before with almost disastrous consequences, and that he might be trying to save Harry's hide one more time. I thought he brought along the potion along just because he happened to have it, and because he knew Lupin needed it.
Fawkes Forever - Oct 1, 2003 4:33 am (#234 of 644)
Paul, In the shrieking shack, when Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lupin, Sirius, Scabbers & Crookshanks are all in the upstairs bedroom, the door opens at one point.... but noone walks in... that is noone visible. They put it down to the wind / ghosts (which don't actually occupy the shack) & continue with their discussions/arguements for a few minutes.... & then, ta-dah... Snape removes the invisiblity cloak!
He came in when the door opened! BTW, welcome to the forum
zixyer - Oct 1, 2003 12:37 pm (#235 of 644)
Uhm, Snape didn't bring the potion along. He brought the potion to Lupin's office, and then he saw Lupin on the map going to Hogsmeade, and assumed this meant that Lupin was helping Sirius get into Hogwarts, so he went to the shrieking shack so he could catch Lupin and have him and Sirius killed by the dementors. He explains this at the begining of chapter 19.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 1, 2003 12:59 pm (#236 of 644)
Edited Oct 1, 2003 2:06 pm
Yes, I think so too. I had no doubt in my mind that Snape went into the Shrieking Shack to catch Sirius and turn him in. However, I don't think he meant to do the same with Lupin.
I know we're not supposed to talk about the films but I do want to answer something about Lucius saying "avada..." to Harry and Dobby rescuing him. This didn't happen in the book, did it?
Pisceswicca, I agree with you when you describe Snape, especially the part about him being on OUR side.
Also, I wanted to say that I don't think Sirius left 12GP as a reaction to Snape's taunts about him being a coward. I'm certain that he left the house because he knew Harry was in trouble; Sirius was ready to fight for Harry, no matter what the consequences, because he loved him. It was the love that he felt for Harry that lead him to the Ministry of Magic.
Oooh..I wanted to explain something! I'd have cleared it up before but I've gotten hold of a computer just now!
popkin (post #215): I thought I read somwhere that JKR said Snape never got the DADA position because Dumbledore knew it would bring out the worst in Snape.
me(rose marie): Could he be worse than he already is in Potions? I don't know, I think it's because of something that's happened...just a hunch.
sinister kittens: always thought that he was too good at Potions. It has been mentioned before that he is capable of producing the most difficult potions
I didn't mean that he was a horrible Potions maker, I meant that his attitude to Harry couldn't get any worse. Just wanted to clear that up!
S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2003 2:54 pm (#237 of 644)
Edited Oct 1, 2003 3:56 pm
The Royal Albert Hall transcript is kind of bulky if you try to look through it so here's what JK said about Snape and the DADA position:
Royal Albert Hall, June 2003:
Jackson: Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against Dark Arts teacher. In book 5 he still hasn?t got the job. Why does Professor Dumbedore not allow him to be Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher?
JK Rowling: That is an excellent question and the reason is that I have to be careful what I say here. To answer it fully would give a lot away about the remaining two books. When Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said "I'd like to be Professor of Defence Against the Dark Arts please? and Professor Dumbledore felt it might bring out the worst in Snape so said ?I think we?ll get you to teach Potions and see how you get along there?.
I find the most interesting part of that answer to be the part I underlined. I think this means that we will indeed be hearing about what events led up to Dd trusting Snape and hiring him, despite his DE background....
BTW, welcome to the Forum Paul. Your post was very well thought out and I look forward to seeing more posts from you in the future.
Pisceswicca - Oct 1, 2003 3:38 pm (#238 of 644)
No, Rose Marie, I'm not saying that Sirius left 12 GP because of Snape's taunts, but that maybe one of the reasons that Harry now hates Snape even more is because he THINKS that aside from Sirius obvious reasons for leaving the house, that in part the things that Snape said infuriated him even more. Harry knows that Sirius was the way he was, that he acted on impulses, that he was passionate, and Snape's comments could have fueled Sirius' feelings of helplessnes.
popkin - Oct 2, 2003 12:57 am (#239 of 644)
Edited by Oct 2, 2003 2:10 am
S.E.Jones, thank you for posting that exerpt from the RAH interview.
If Dumbledore were to die, or simply resign as Hogwart's Headmaster, another headmaster might put Snape in the position of DADA teacher. Then perhaps we would get to see his worst side in action. If this were to happen, though, I hope we would also see his total redemption, and not his absolute fall from grace.
Despite all his nasty quirks, I feel terribly sorry for Snape (can't help it, JKR), and believe that ultimately he wants to do the right things - albeit, in as nasty a way as possible. He certainly doesn't want to let down his guard.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 2, 2003 7:39 am (#240 of 644)
Yes Pisceswicca... and, from Harry's attitude, I say he's got alot to learn. He's been through what most grown wizzards hasn't, now he's got to use that and learn from it; he's gotten better at battling, and he's very quick. But he's got to learn to channel his emotions, like Snape said to him during Occlumency.
And Popkin, I understand what you mean. I also feel very sorry for Snape. He might not be pleasant to people but I don't think that's what makes you a good person. We'll see Snape doing something very good, and very very risky- more than the risks he's probably taking now.
LilyP - Oct 2, 2003 2:21 pm (#241 of 644)
Yeah, I wouldn't be supprised if Snape made the ultimate sacrifice with his own life in the end. I will bawl!
Pisceswicca - Oct 2, 2003 6:24 pm (#242 of 644)
Oh, but he WILL, Lily P! I'm sure he's going to risk his life saving Harry or something like that, like I've already said. Of course, it's going to be in Book 7. Rowling is portraying so much conflict and hate between Harry and Snape that of COURSE they're finally going to come to terms with each other. Again, like I said, the Harry-Snape storyline is one of the main ones in the series.
Weeny Owl - Oct 2, 2003 7:29 pm (#243 of 644)
I've been thinking about dear Severus and his attitude.
He could hate Harry because of how he was treated by James, but it could be something else entirely such as guilt.
Snape calls Lily a filthy little mudblood, yet his relationship with Hermione isn't based on blood but on Hermione being an "insufferable know-it-all."
Snape is generally not terribly hostile with Ron. There have been times, of course, but Ron usually isn't a target. I'm sure Ginny doesn't like Snape, but she's never specifically mentioned him being cruel to her (at least not that I remember). Even the twins, with their obvious dislike for Snape, don't seem to have quite the adversarial relationship with him that Harry and Neville do.
And speaking of Neville... granted, Neville's potions work is abysmal, but what if there's something more to it than that? What if Snape's attitude toward Harry and Neville has to do with the Potters being killed and the Longbottoms being hunted down by Bella and company?
I'm not saying Snape was involved in what happened to the Longbottoms exactly, because by that time he was probably already teaching at Hogwarts, but he might have had knowledge as to their whereabouts and given that away. I'm not sure how he could have been involved in the Potters dying, but something could have happened.
Sometimes people hate a person more if they've been the cause of pain rather than being the victim. If Snape was involved somehow, then Harry and Neville's presence is a constant reminder of just how low Snape sunk.
There just has to be more to his attitude with Harry and Neville than merely hating James, and because of Neville's lack of potions skills.
Then again, maybe there doesn't and I'm reading too much into it.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 3, 2003 7:06 am (#244 of 644)
Weeny, your last statement about Snape's attitude with Harry and Neville. I wonder if it has anything to do with the prophecy which could be about Harry or Nevelle? Perhaps there is a connection?
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 8:05 am (#245 of 644)
Fawkesy, it could very easily have a connection with the prophecy. I've been split as to whether or not Snape was the one who overheard it, but there could be something to it.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 3, 2003 11:58 am (#246 of 644)
Edited Oct 3, 2003 1:06 pm
I don't think it could have been Snape. Snape left Voldermort well before Voldermort's fateful visit to the Potter's (well maybe not that long before, but it wasn't JUST before his downfall either). If Snape was the one that had overheard the prophecy, it was he who went to tell Voldermort. Voldermort reacted shortly afterwards, so I don't think it could have been Snape.
Maybe it was..what's his name..that crook, the one that was the stolen cauldron business. Mundungus was his name, I remember now. Sirius says that he was banned from the Hog's inn (or Hog's Head, can't remember the name). When the DA meet there for the first time, they see a witch, but it's actually him, he had to be disguised because he had been banned. Aaand, DD tells Harry in the end of OoP that the person who had overheard the prophecy had been banned. So what if they're the same person?
What do you all think? I'm not too sure, because Mundungus might be a crook but he seems OK (well then again it's not as if we've seen enough of him to have a strong opinion). Maybe he changed his mind about Voldie and decided to go back to the good side.
Comments, please!
schoff - Oct 3, 2003 12:26 pm (#247 of 644)
Edited by Oct 3, 2003 1:27 pm
Rose Marie: Check out the Eavesdropper thread a little farther down the list.
Madame Librarian - Oct 3, 2003 12:31 pm (#248 of 644)
Here's a question that's been brewing in my muddled brain for a bit:
If I read the timeline correctly, Harry's parents and Snape graduated from H-warts in 1977 or 1978 (let's assume they are all in the same year--it isn't crucial to be exact for my questions). They were 17 or 18 years old.
We know Harry was born in 1980, which makes James and Lily very young to be married and parents. They and Snape are approx. 20 then. I know we've wondered what everyone was doing professionally and in terms of VWI, but what I'm wondering is the specific little timeline for Snape's "occupation" as a DE and then as a reformed man.
Did he become a Death Nibbler while still at H-warts? If so, what does this imply about the security, neutrality, etc. of the school itself? Is there an active recruiting campaign to enlist students to the Dark Side? How did it all work? Was there also a Good Side group operative at the school? If Snape was not involved until he finished H-warts, that leaves 3 years for so-called active duty with the DEs and then a return to Good Side. Seems like such a short time frame, doesn't it?
This brings up a whole bunch of question regarding VWI and how it was fought, but I'll save that for another thread.
What about the period immediately after the 1981 ousting of V. from power? What is Snape doing then (I know that he applies for the DADA job at H-warts, but I'm wondering where his loyalties are and what he's doing just before that)?
Your thoughts, please.
Ciao. Barb
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 1:01 pm (#249 of 644)
I'd find it hard to swallow if it turns out the reason that Snape is horrible to Harry or Neville was because he was responsible for what happened to their parents.
I always thought that he was mean to Hermione because she's muggle-born but seems to be a better witch at her age than anyone else (resulting in cognitive dissonance), he's mean to Harry because his dad was a jerk, but it's a mystery why he's mean to Neville, unless it's just because of Neville being a lousy student.
I wonder why Neville's boggart was Snape, anyway? I'm sure you've all discussed this to death already, though.
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 2:05 pm (#250 of 644)
Madame Librarian:
I've wondered myself what Snape was doing after school and before he became a professor.
He said to Umbridge that he'd been teaching for fourteen years, and that was Harry's fifth year, so he would have started a couple of months before Harry's parents were killed.
Say that was 1980, and what you said about him possibly graduating in 1977 and it being only a few years to become a Death Eater and reform isn't a lot of time. You may be right about there being a Death Nibbler group at Hogwarts.
I really don't think Snape was the one who heard the prophecy, but it's possible. I'm still 50/50 on that. The prophecy was made before Harry's birth, but the actual attack on him and his parents wasn't until he was a bit over a year old, so a lot depends on when Snape became a spy.
As I said, I could be reading too much into Snape's attitude with Neville, but I just feel there has to be more to it than Neville's lack of potions skills.
In fact, if I remember correctly, Dumbledore told Harry that the only two people who know the (full) prophecy are himself and Harry.
popkin - Sep 28, 2003 1:41 am (#202 of 644)
Snape may have learned something of the prophecy from Voldemort. Do we know exactly when he left LV's service? Was it before or after the prophecy was made? Before or after LV's fall?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 28, 2003 11:07 am (#203 of 644)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 12:10 pm
Well maybe Snape knows, just because we haven't seen anyone telling him about the prophecy, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, I mean, we didn't see him go into the forest to fetch Harry but we know he did,right? Maybe Dumbledore doesn't know he knows...or something! Actually I'm not so sure of the theory myself.
But anyway, I mean we never knew about the prophecy but I think deep down inside we always knew that it was either Harry or Voldermort,right? We knew all along that it was Harry who would have to defeat him, a man of Snape's intelligence would have guessed that too.
Weeny Owl - Sep 28, 2003 11:16 am (#204 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "We knew all along that it was Harry who would have to defeat him, a man of Snape's intelligence would have guessed that too."
Snape may never have given Harry a thought until he arrived at Hogwarts with his scar, and you're right... Snape has the intelligence to figure out that there is still something going on between Voldie and Harry.
The whole "life-debt" thing in the first book may account for him protecting Harry in the first year, but definitely by the end of GoF, Snape knew Voldie would be after Harry. I'm sure he's figured out something even if he doesn't know exactly what the prophecy involves.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 28, 2003 11:45 am (#205 of 644)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 12:45 pm
Yes you're right, he HAD tried to expell him before Voldermort's come back. But still if it wasn't just all talk, his grudge got the best of him.
From now on, I think Snape won't even suggest Harry's expulsion, now that he knows there's something between him and Voldie.
I think Dumbledore wouldn't expell Harry even if he set the common room sofa on fire on purpose (which he never would,anyway); his mission is far more important. Snape knows this now.
Weeny Owl - Sep 28, 2003 2:54 pm (#206 of 644)
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - "I think Dumbledore wouldn't expell Harry even if he set the common room sofa on fire on purpose (which he never would,anyway); his mission is far more important. Snape knows this now."
I know there's a lot of speculation as to the new DADA teacher, and Snape did say when Umbridge was inspecting his class that he keeps applying for the job, but regardless of whether or not he is DADA teacher or continues with potions, I would hope Snape wouldn't let his grudges go too far with trying to get Harry kicked out of school. Of course, you're right... Dumbledore wouldn't allow it.
Even if Harry and Snape never get along, I'd at least like to see them having a conversation where they acknowledge that while they detest each other, they'll both try to work together for Voldie's defeat and the betterment of the Wizarding World.
JKR has so many options with dear Severus, so there's no way of know quite what she has planned.
Madam Pince - Sep 28, 2003 10:42 pm (#207 of 644)
Susurro, so glad you liked my theory. I think you're the only one who does. (ha!)
I think that, as of OoP, Snape certainly knows that Harry is something special, because Dumbledore asked him to do the Occlumency lessons. Dumbledore must've given him some sort of reason for doing so.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 29, 2003 8:37 am (#208 of 644)
Well, one possibility could be Snape becoming the DADA teacher in book 6. It just occured to me, but at the same time I don't really think it's true.
I think DD has a very important reason as to why he doesn't allow Snape to be the DADA teacher; I think it will be something big and we'll be finding out why, no doubt!
Caitlin McCoy - Sep 29, 2003 3:27 pm (#209 of 644)
Edited Sep 29, 2003 4:27 pm
There we go! I want to know why Dumbledore won't let Severus be the DADA teacher (he would have been a vast improvement over allowing Umbridge or Lockheart speard their nonsense around). It seems to me that if someone wanted to be a teacher of a certain subject so badly, you might as well let them have a crack at it. But, knowing Dumbledore, he has a solid reason behind it. I, for one, would like to be let in on the big mystery.
~Caitlin
Grant the Great - Sep 29, 2003 5:03 pm (#210 of 644)
OK, I think I said this before already, but here it goes . . .
I read in an interview with JKR (I can't remember which one, if someone knows, please tell) that someone asked why Snape hasn't been given the position. She explained (without giving away too much, of course) that Snape first applied for the DADA position over Potions, but Dumbledore (in his seemingly infinite wisdom) basically told him, "Well, let's see how you do with Potions first." (not an exact quote). Anyway, that's the basic idea. Now, I hereby officially open the discussion for why Dumbledore didn't give it to him in the first place (OK, please don't stone me monitors, I was only joking!)
Personally, I hope it isn't as simple as, let's prove your allegiance to the Dark Lord is vanquished completely before you begin to tell these kids about how to avoid Dark Magic, especially when you were a child prodigy (OK, I can't think of the right word, is that right?) in the Dark Arts at school. Any other opinions?
Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:06 pm (#211 of 644)
That was from the Royal Albert Hall interview, just after the release of OotP.
I searched around to find the reference, but all of my favorite JKR interview databases seemed to not have the RAH transcript yet. Oh well.
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 29, 2003 5:41 pm (#212 of 644)
Is it more speculation on the students part that Severus prefers the DADA spot?
Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:52 pm (#213 of 644)
We know from his interview with Umbridge that he has been regularly applying for the DADA position, and Dumbledore isn't ready to give him the job.
Susurro Notities - Sep 29, 2003 6:41 pm (#214 of 644)
Royal Albert Hall Interview: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
popkin - Sep 29, 2003 7:54 pm (#215 of 644)
Edited by Sep 29, 2003 8:56 pm
The Royal Albert Hall interview is also on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .
I thought I read somwhere that JKR said Snape never got the DADA position because Dumbledore knew it would bring out the worst in Snape.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 30, 2003 3:14 am (#216 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:15 am
Could he be worse than he already is in Potions? I don't know, I think it's because of something that's happened...just a hunch.
Sinister Kittens - Sep 30, 2003 3:35 am (#217 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:36 am
I always thought that he was too good at Potions. It has been mentioned before that he is capable of producing the most difficult potions (Lupin, I think?). But, having said that, maybe DD did not want him tempted by the Dark Arts?
Veela3173 - Sep 30, 2003 4:41 am (#218 of 644)
I really thinks that Snape really had something good inside his heart, if you compares Draco malfoy and Severus snape type,who will you choose? if you ask me perhaps i will choose Snape because he had a tiny little good heart but DRACO!! just....i cant describe it.But SK (if i can call you that) Is right he just too good for poisons i mean potion.. but Snape have to traine his patient for having teachers favourite students Harry,ron,Hermione and of course Neville longbottom
Sinister Kittens - Sep 30, 2003 5:14 am (#219 of 644)
Veela3173, of course you can call me that. You might want to have a quick look at the Philosophy of the Forum before a moderator finds you though! And don't forget to introduce yourself as well, it's always nice to meet more HP fans. (But thank you for agreeing with me).
!!!!!LauraAngel - Sep 30, 2003 9:13 am (#220 of 644)
We know that Snape is good at Potions. As SK says, he's produced some difficult potions. But we also knows that he's good at Dark Arts (think Sirius once mentioned it). He was fascinated by the Dark Arts and could do very difficult spells in a young age.
I'm I wrong or didn't Snape seem very humain in OP when he was "tortured" by James? Maybe he isn't such a bad guy after all, but have just been forced to be or pretend to be all his life...
Consider his fascination of the Dark Arts, maybe the Sorting Hat only placed him in Slytherin House because of that. And assuming he is a Pure Blood (he is, right?) maybe his 'evil' family expected him to get into Slytherin House (like Ron) and the Sorting Hat allowed him to have something to say in the decision (Harry) and that's how he ended up in Slytherin ...
Fawkesy Lady - Sep 30, 2003 9:45 am (#221 of 644)
I am not sure I would want him teaching DADA. Look at the way he treats non-Slytherins in potions and how he was in PoA when he substituted for Lupin. Students not in his favor would not do well in a very important subject.
Emily - Sep 30, 2003 1:48 pm (#222 of 644)
I always thought that Snape didn't get the DADA post because he had once been a Death Eater. But considering how much DD trusts him in everything else, I guess there must be something else; something bigger maybe? Is that even possible? Being on the subject, I want to know what made him finally convert to DD's side.(Did I phrase that correctly?)Sorry for being off topic, but I'm just so curious!
timrew - Sep 30, 2003 2:41 pm (#223 of 644)
HAS he converted to DD'd side, Marauder5? The guy is such a slippery character; and even JKR has told us not to get too fond of him.
Is Severus Snape a double agent, a double-double agent, or what?
LilyP - Sep 30, 2003 3:39 pm (#224 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 4:41 pm
Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. The alliance between Snape and the order is definitely questionable. Although, Dumbledore trusts him. He is repeatedly questioned about this trust, and he sticks to it. So, that makes me think we can, in fact, trust him. That said, I am of the thought that now would be a good time to consider Snape for the DADA position. It would free up the position of potions for someone else, who might actually be able to teach Harry something. I think Harry's strength in the DADA field will help him endure Snape's- well, shall we say personality quirks. Harry is easily intimidated in potions class, and therefore he has not had time to build his confidence. He has the confidence in DADA, so he could withstand a little abuse from Snape better. Snape could also take Harry to the advanced levels of DADA that he will need, not for the NEWTs, but for his final battles with Voldemort.
(OK - upon reading this, I think it might fit better on the DADA thread, but I'll leave it here for now, because I think it is also along the lines of the current discussion. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sorry and I'll try to do better next time. I'd put a sad face smiley here - if I had the time to figure out how to do it).
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 5:39 pm (#225 of 644)
Yes, DD is human, subject to "flaws of human nature," but i've come to see that when DD is sure of something, HE'S SURE OF SOMETHING. There's no hesitation in him when it comes to trusting Snape, or expressing to Harry or to whoever that he does. Just like Rose Marie said, this could sound like a "last resort" attempt to plead with the fact that Snape really IS on our side (hehe) but i just KNOW that Snape is not with the DE's. It's too obvious, it's something too many people would imagine. Then again it may be something that J.K. Rowling knows that people will think and then think that because it's "too obvious" it can't be that he's a DE (is everyone following me? hehe) and so he may be a DE after all. But i very, very, seriously doubt it. I don't think that Rowling would be going so much in depth into his character (however slowly she may be doing it, to keep us is complete and desperate anticipation!) if he really WAS on the "dark" side. you know what i mean? I think, as Rose Marie (my sister, by the way!), and many others think as well, is one of the most fascinating characters of the whole story. Both him and DD are. Maybe DUMBLEDORE is a DE! JUST JOKING!!!!! hahaha...no, seriously, Snape is one of my FAVOURITE characters - the most mysterious and fascinating. I think that one of the reasons that Rowling has him in the story, as the ANTAGONIST (who doesn't necessarily HAVE to be bad or evil, mind you), is to have both him and Harry learn from each other. One is what the other isn't. Or maybe the have more in common what they or even WE think? I'll try to into that in more detail in a future post... But anyway, Snape and Harry will grow more as people by learning from each other. It's stared in OoP with Harry finding Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve, and with Snape "seeing" Harry's thoughts during the Occlumency lessons. Both will realize that maybe both aren't really that different, that Harry isn't THAT much like his father after all, and that Snape probably really has a vulnerable and noble side as Harry would see it. I saw somewhere in these Snape posts someone saying that there probably will be some kind of "understanding" between the both of them. I think it's going to be a little more than that. Let me dare to say that i think there's probably going to be a kind of respect between them by the end of the series. YOU ALL MARK MY WORDS!!! It's the feeling deep down inside my gut that things will end up ok between Harry and Snape. Then again, maybe not, being that that's what maybe many people would like to happen but it isn't necessarily like that in real life - but I think that it'll be ok. Like I already said in another post, agreeing with someone else (the words had been taken from my mouth! haha), I'm pretty sure Snape is probably going to risk his life (and most probably lose it) by saving Harry from Volilock's final blow, AFTER Harry's and Snape's coming-to-terms-with-eachother. All of this rambling is making me realize more and more that Snape probably IS one of THE most important characters in the series. The perfect antagonist. The Harry-Snape issue/sub-plot/story or whatever you want to call it is one of the central issues in the series. I just can't see Snape ending up as one of the DE's after all. Nope.
Grant the Great - Sep 30, 2003 6:20 pm (#226 of 644)
Pisceswicca, I know that maybe your post isn't enough to suggest reading the Philosophy of the Forum, but I think your ideas would be a LOT easier to read if you put them in paragraphs. One hit of "ENTER" isn't enough, you have to hit it twice. Thanks! Oh, and sorry if that came out as rude; I always try to avoid it, but I'm not always successful!
Now, on my opinion of Snape, I think I have posted this question before, but no one seemed to have a sure answer in their opinion. What does everyone think about whether Snape will continue the Occlumency lessons? Also, has anyone wondered whether Harry will delve into Legimency (did I spell that right?)? All right, ya'll, slash away at my post!
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 6:29 pm (#227 of 644)
Yes, Rose Marie, I agree on you with that one. I think that Snape really DOES know the wizard that Harry is and that WILL be, and that he really does have what it takes to become a great, great, and powerful wizard, but I also do agree with what you said about his quiting the Occlumency lessons and him being nasty to Harry being the "grudges getting the better of him." Remember, no one is perfect, and Snape certainly isn't either. He's been scarred very deep by people around him his whole life. You may even know it yourself, and KNOW that just because certain things have happened to you it doesn't give you an excuse to be, in turn, nasty to others. But infortunately human nature doesn't always act according to what we LOGICALLY know and feel. Our subconscious demons come out and play with our minds, making us do and say things that deep down inside in our conscious minds we KNOW are wrong. And there's Snape for you. He ain't perfect, he let's the worst get the better of him sometimes. Just like DD - he's not perfect either. He's made big mistakes as well. He talked about it with Harry in OoP.
Pisceswicca - Sep 30, 2003 7:36 pm (#228 of 644)
Ok, I have a few ideas about the Snape I'd like to run by you all. Maybe I'm repeating myself in some of them, and I profusely apologize in advance if I seem to be ranting and raving. It's just that I have all these thoughts and things that I want to say as a result of reading each and every one of the posts here for Snape, that I'd like to put them all out now before I forget. Some of these are remarks to many of the posts I've just read. Sorry if right now at this moment I can't place the comments I'm responding to to their authors!
Snape and Petunia: I think that Petunia, just like Snape, is another of THE mystereious characters in the books. Book 5 is where my mind made this "click" and things and ideas started coming up. I think that Petunia has more to do with the wizarding world than we know and that she'd like to know. But that's for another post. As for the connection to Snape, I'm not sure if there's as much as a DIRECT connection to Snape but the fact that they're both protecting Harry, as much as they "dislike" him, to say the least, is very curious indeed.
"Snape being mean to Harry with permission from DD" (or something like that...): Mmmmmmmm....interesting.... It's interesting in the fact that yes, it does give room for Harry to "toughen up" as a result of this. I don't know if DD "gives him permission" but rather, perhaps, just merely doesn't DO much about it because whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? And Harry Potter needs all the strength, guts, bravery, fierce qualities, that he can acquire. I also know that DD addresses the problems he thinks he should address. He doesn't do or not do anything for no reason. He's on top of it all - at least where HIS actions are concerned.
On the other hand, Snape's grudges and demons he obviously internally deals with are something that fall under "human nature," and DD can try to do all he can from preventing Snape from outwardly doing something REALLY bad to Harry (if he did, hypothetically), but he can't control a person's feelings.
Snape's "hate" and grudges against Harry: The question of whether Harry and Snape will actually come to amends and maybe like each other or not has arisen a few times, and people have had many opinions, and I may be repeating myself with this, but I'm going to emphasize what i believe - that maybe Snape and Harry won't really learn to actually "love" each other but I'm pretty sure there will be a certain level of respect that'll grow. Snape's finding things out about Harry - in turn, Harry is finding a lot of things out about Snape. They've both gone through ugly experiences and pain. Rowling puts so much explanation (although a little at a time) into their relationship and about their characters, I think that the both will learn things about each other that they never imagined they would. Snape will learn that maybe Harry IS different to the way James was when HE was Harry's age. And Harry will learn, probably, that Snape is someone he'll come to respect.
Harry's increased hate towards Snape after the deathe of Sirius: I agree with whoever mentioned something along the lines of Harry blaming Sirius' leaving 12 Grimmauld Place on Snape's taunts of Sirius. To Harry, maybe that's what drove Sirius out of there, and him being out of there killed him in the long run.
Another thing - it's natural for him to have this increased hate for him after his death. Snape said things that were HORRIBLE to Harry! They seem even more horrible now that Sirius is dead. Now, I've never had anyone that close to me leave me in that way, but I can imagine that when you love someone that way and they die, you remember the mean things a certain person might have said about them. This creates a new and more intense kind of hate. The person you love just DIED, and here you are, with one of the people you hate the most, who said all these horrible things about that person, still alive and well. Not that he wanted Snape dead or anything, but he'd just said those things about one of the only people he truly loved - it's like an insult to their memory.
Snape and Harry getting along better?? MMMM...well, like some other people have just said, I don't see this happening until later on either. It's going to happen in Book 7. 6 is too soon. We still have a lot of things to find out about Snape and DD and other characters before there's some kind of closure on this issue. We JUST are beginning to find out about Snape, but REALLY finding out about him, in Book 5. I think that the Harry-Snape story is only one of the most important ones of the series, and with something like that there's no climax until the end. Anticipation, anticipation!
Ok, those were a few things that caught my attention about a few posts. I hope you're all still awake and well and that I didn't bore you to death! :-D
Weeny Owl - Sep 30, 2003 7:53 pm (#229 of 644)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 8:54 pm
I don't think Snape will continue Occlumency lessons with Harry. Either Dumbledore will or he'll find someone else who can take a more gentle approach than what amounts to a nuclear explosion in Harry's mind.
While Snape understands the subtlety necessary for potions, when it comes to emotions, even if he removes some memories, he's still too preoccupied with tormenting Harry to be effective.
As for Snape being a Death Eater? I don't think he is on Voldie's side, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's on the side of good either. It's been mentioned on the Lucius thread that Lucius and Snape may have another plan entirely, and it wouldn't surprise me if Snape truly wants Voldie defeated so that he could become the next "Incredibly Powerful Dark Arts Wizard of the century." After all, he alredy has a group of potential Death Eaters of his own with seven years of Death Nibblers wandering around the Slytherin common room.
Get their fathers and Voldie defeated, channel their anger, and there's no way of telling what Snape could become.
That doesn't mean I see it as a viable scenario, but it's a possibility, however remote.
Crackoff Smirnoff - Sep 30, 2003 8:20 pm (#230 of 644)
Hiya Kids - I'm a newbie and this is all fascinating. Here's my .02.
I think that Snape's connection to the Dark Lord is directly through Lucius Malfoy. I have no doubt that he did pay his homage to Voldemort, at Dumbledore's urging, soon after he returned to his body in GoF.
I don't care what JK says, I seem to think that Snape's intentions are honorable. Yes he is horrible to Harry and does not miss an opportunity to publicly humiliate "the Famous Harry Potter" He obviously has an axe to grind with James whether it is jealously in in atheleticism, magical skill and no doubt the amorous desire for the for the same young and tantilizing witch. A desire fueled by the hope that "it" could actually happen as she rushes to publicly defend him as he is being hazed by his classmates.
Let's not forget the obvious competitive nature of the Hogwarts wizarding community. This competetive spirit is not denied by the students, who have a long history of hexing each other. Nor by the Staff who are alarmingly loyal to their Houses. Perhaps Snape's episodes grandstanding are fueled by this competetiveness and this sense of house loyalty. Examples being that McGonnagall wasted no time in recruiting Harry as a seeker, even though Madam Hooch clearly outlined the consequences of unauthorized flight. The blatant and historically acknowledged acceptance of cheating in the TWC. This could explain some of Snape public fdisplays of nastiness in regards to Harry especially in the presence of the progeny of confirmed Death Eaters. I can see an owl carrying a parchment that read something like "Don't worry about Snape Dad, he'd squash that Mudblood Potter in an instant if Dumbldore wasn't around."
To his honor there are numerous instances where Snape did rescue Harry and his thankless entourage. Did he show up at the shreiking shack thinking that he would find Sirius? Or did he go down the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, with a freshly brewed goblet of homebrew to save his students from an inevitable encounter with a dangerous half-breed, considering the point in the Lunar Calendar Only to find the icing on the cake, Sirius standing right in front of him. (How long was he standing there in the invisibility cloak before he announced his presence?)
I hope that there is a lot of Snape in the next book. JK has some explaining to do.
A couple of not so extended comments. In the film CoS was Lucius saying Avaada...when Dobby flew to the rescue?
Is Bagman the cowardly Death Eater?
I fantasize that Edie McCLurg, principal Rooney's secretary in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, plays Delores Umbridge in the Movie.
Grant the Great - Sep 30, 2003 8:48 pm (#231 of 644)
Welcome to the board! I like your thoughts on Snape, but we try to keep other thoughts on the appropriate threads here. You might want to consider posting them somewhere else! Thanks a bunch!
schoff - Sep 30, 2003 9:12 pm (#232 of 644)
Edited by Sep 30, 2003 10:12 pm
Paul Brown: A couple of not so extended comments. In the film CoS was Lucius saying Avaada...when Dobby flew to the rescue?
Yeah. It sure sounded like it to me!
Is Bagman the cowardly Death Eater?
I know these threads are really cumbersome to weed through. We talked about this a little earlier on this thread, but the second one's an archived thread you might be interested in:
popkin 9/17/03 8:28pm
Jimmy Bell ""Three dead in my service ... " Who is the Mystery Death Eater?" 8/27/03 3:48pm
I fantasize that Edie McCLurg, principal Rooney's secretary in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, plays Delores Umbridge in the Movie.
Ooh! What a great idea! I can totally see her in this part! You should post this on the casting thread, I bet they'd love to read it!
timrew "-- Discussions about the Cast of any HP movie." 9/30/03 4:07pm
Welcome to the Forum, Paul. Don't forget to Tell Us About Yourself. We always love to hear from new people!
popkin - Sep 30, 2003 11:15 pm (#233 of 644)
Quote from Paul Brown: "To his honor there are numerous instances where Snape did rescue Harry and his thankless entourage. Did he show up at the shreiking shack thinking that he would find Sirius? Or did he go down the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, with a freshly brewed goblet of homebrew to save his students from an inevitable encounter with a dangerous half-breed, considering the point in the Lunar Calendar Only to find the icing on the cake, Sirius standing right in front of him. (How long was he standing there in the invisibility cloak before he announced his presence?)"
Good catch! I always assumed Snape went to the shrieking shack to catch Harry and company being bad and to make sure they were properly punished. I never made the connection that Snape made this same trip once before with almost disastrous consequences, and that he might be trying to save Harry's hide one more time. I thought he brought along the potion along just because he happened to have it, and because he knew Lupin needed it.
Fawkes Forever - Oct 1, 2003 4:33 am (#234 of 644)
Paul, In the shrieking shack, when Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lupin, Sirius, Scabbers & Crookshanks are all in the upstairs bedroom, the door opens at one point.... but noone walks in... that is noone visible. They put it down to the wind / ghosts (which don't actually occupy the shack) & continue with their discussions/arguements for a few minutes.... & then, ta-dah... Snape removes the invisiblity cloak!
He came in when the door opened! BTW, welcome to the forum
zixyer - Oct 1, 2003 12:37 pm (#235 of 644)
Uhm, Snape didn't bring the potion along. He brought the potion to Lupin's office, and then he saw Lupin on the map going to Hogsmeade, and assumed this meant that Lupin was helping Sirius get into Hogwarts, so he went to the shrieking shack so he could catch Lupin and have him and Sirius killed by the dementors. He explains this at the begining of chapter 19.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 1, 2003 12:59 pm (#236 of 644)
Edited Oct 1, 2003 2:06 pm
Yes, I think so too. I had no doubt in my mind that Snape went into the Shrieking Shack to catch Sirius and turn him in. However, I don't think he meant to do the same with Lupin.
I know we're not supposed to talk about the films but I do want to answer something about Lucius saying "avada..." to Harry and Dobby rescuing him. This didn't happen in the book, did it?
Pisceswicca, I agree with you when you describe Snape, especially the part about him being on OUR side.
Also, I wanted to say that I don't think Sirius left 12GP as a reaction to Snape's taunts about him being a coward. I'm certain that he left the house because he knew Harry was in trouble; Sirius was ready to fight for Harry, no matter what the consequences, because he loved him. It was the love that he felt for Harry that lead him to the Ministry of Magic.
Oooh..I wanted to explain something! I'd have cleared it up before but I've gotten hold of a computer just now!
popkin (post #215): I thought I read somwhere that JKR said Snape never got the DADA position because Dumbledore knew it would bring out the worst in Snape.
me(rose marie): Could he be worse than he already is in Potions? I don't know, I think it's because of something that's happened...just a hunch.
sinister kittens: always thought that he was too good at Potions. It has been mentioned before that he is capable of producing the most difficult potions
I didn't mean that he was a horrible Potions maker, I meant that his attitude to Harry couldn't get any worse. Just wanted to clear that up!
S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2003 2:54 pm (#237 of 644)
Edited Oct 1, 2003 3:56 pm
The Royal Albert Hall transcript is kind of bulky if you try to look through it so here's what JK said about Snape and the DADA position:
Royal Albert Hall, June 2003:
Jackson: Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against Dark Arts teacher. In book 5 he still hasn?t got the job. Why does Professor Dumbedore not allow him to be Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher?
JK Rowling: That is an excellent question and the reason is that I have to be careful what I say here. To answer it fully would give a lot away about the remaining two books. When Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said "I'd like to be Professor of Defence Against the Dark Arts please? and Professor Dumbledore felt it might bring out the worst in Snape so said ?I think we?ll get you to teach Potions and see how you get along there?.
I find the most interesting part of that answer to be the part I underlined. I think this means that we will indeed be hearing about what events led up to Dd trusting Snape and hiring him, despite his DE background....
BTW, welcome to the Forum Paul. Your post was very well thought out and I look forward to seeing more posts from you in the future.
Pisceswicca - Oct 1, 2003 3:38 pm (#238 of 644)
No, Rose Marie, I'm not saying that Sirius left 12 GP because of Snape's taunts, but that maybe one of the reasons that Harry now hates Snape even more is because he THINKS that aside from Sirius obvious reasons for leaving the house, that in part the things that Snape said infuriated him even more. Harry knows that Sirius was the way he was, that he acted on impulses, that he was passionate, and Snape's comments could have fueled Sirius' feelings of helplessnes.
popkin - Oct 2, 2003 12:57 am (#239 of 644)
Edited by Oct 2, 2003 2:10 am
S.E.Jones, thank you for posting that exerpt from the RAH interview.
If Dumbledore were to die, or simply resign as Hogwart's Headmaster, another headmaster might put Snape in the position of DADA teacher. Then perhaps we would get to see his worst side in action. If this were to happen, though, I hope we would also see his total redemption, and not his absolute fall from grace.
Despite all his nasty quirks, I feel terribly sorry for Snape (can't help it, JKR), and believe that ultimately he wants to do the right things - albeit, in as nasty a way as possible. He certainly doesn't want to let down his guard.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 2, 2003 7:39 am (#240 of 644)
Yes Pisceswicca... and, from Harry's attitude, I say he's got alot to learn. He's been through what most grown wizzards hasn't, now he's got to use that and learn from it; he's gotten better at battling, and he's very quick. But he's got to learn to channel his emotions, like Snape said to him during Occlumency.
And Popkin, I understand what you mean. I also feel very sorry for Snape. He might not be pleasant to people but I don't think that's what makes you a good person. We'll see Snape doing something very good, and very very risky- more than the risks he's probably taking now.
LilyP - Oct 2, 2003 2:21 pm (#241 of 644)
Yeah, I wouldn't be supprised if Snape made the ultimate sacrifice with his own life in the end. I will bawl!
Pisceswicca - Oct 2, 2003 6:24 pm (#242 of 644)
Oh, but he WILL, Lily P! I'm sure he's going to risk his life saving Harry or something like that, like I've already said. Of course, it's going to be in Book 7. Rowling is portraying so much conflict and hate between Harry and Snape that of COURSE they're finally going to come to terms with each other. Again, like I said, the Harry-Snape storyline is one of the main ones in the series.
Weeny Owl - Oct 2, 2003 7:29 pm (#243 of 644)
I've been thinking about dear Severus and his attitude.
He could hate Harry because of how he was treated by James, but it could be something else entirely such as guilt.
Snape calls Lily a filthy little mudblood, yet his relationship with Hermione isn't based on blood but on Hermione being an "insufferable know-it-all."
Snape is generally not terribly hostile with Ron. There have been times, of course, but Ron usually isn't a target. I'm sure Ginny doesn't like Snape, but she's never specifically mentioned him being cruel to her (at least not that I remember). Even the twins, with their obvious dislike for Snape, don't seem to have quite the adversarial relationship with him that Harry and Neville do.
And speaking of Neville... granted, Neville's potions work is abysmal, but what if there's something more to it than that? What if Snape's attitude toward Harry and Neville has to do with the Potters being killed and the Longbottoms being hunted down by Bella and company?
I'm not saying Snape was involved in what happened to the Longbottoms exactly, because by that time he was probably already teaching at Hogwarts, but he might have had knowledge as to their whereabouts and given that away. I'm not sure how he could have been involved in the Potters dying, but something could have happened.
Sometimes people hate a person more if they've been the cause of pain rather than being the victim. If Snape was involved somehow, then Harry and Neville's presence is a constant reminder of just how low Snape sunk.
There just has to be more to his attitude with Harry and Neville than merely hating James, and because of Neville's lack of potions skills.
Then again, maybe there doesn't and I'm reading too much into it.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 3, 2003 7:06 am (#244 of 644)
Weeny, your last statement about Snape's attitude with Harry and Neville. I wonder if it has anything to do with the prophecy which could be about Harry or Nevelle? Perhaps there is a connection?
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 8:05 am (#245 of 644)
Fawkesy, it could very easily have a connection with the prophecy. I've been split as to whether or not Snape was the one who overheard it, but there could be something to it.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 3, 2003 11:58 am (#246 of 644)
Edited Oct 3, 2003 1:06 pm
I don't think it could have been Snape. Snape left Voldermort well before Voldermort's fateful visit to the Potter's (well maybe not that long before, but it wasn't JUST before his downfall either). If Snape was the one that had overheard the prophecy, it was he who went to tell Voldermort. Voldermort reacted shortly afterwards, so I don't think it could have been Snape.
Maybe it was..what's his name..that crook, the one that was the stolen cauldron business. Mundungus was his name, I remember now. Sirius says that he was banned from the Hog's inn (or Hog's Head, can't remember the name). When the DA meet there for the first time, they see a witch, but it's actually him, he had to be disguised because he had been banned. Aaand, DD tells Harry in the end of OoP that the person who had overheard the prophecy had been banned. So what if they're the same person?
What do you all think? I'm not too sure, because Mundungus might be a crook but he seems OK (well then again it's not as if we've seen enough of him to have a strong opinion). Maybe he changed his mind about Voldie and decided to go back to the good side.
Comments, please!
schoff - Oct 3, 2003 12:26 pm (#247 of 644)
Edited by Oct 3, 2003 1:27 pm
Rose Marie: Check out the Eavesdropper thread a little farther down the list.
Madame Librarian - Oct 3, 2003 12:31 pm (#248 of 644)
Here's a question that's been brewing in my muddled brain for a bit:
If I read the timeline correctly, Harry's parents and Snape graduated from H-warts in 1977 or 1978 (let's assume they are all in the same year--it isn't crucial to be exact for my questions). They were 17 or 18 years old.
We know Harry was born in 1980, which makes James and Lily very young to be married and parents. They and Snape are approx. 20 then. I know we've wondered what everyone was doing professionally and in terms of VWI, but what I'm wondering is the specific little timeline for Snape's "occupation" as a DE and then as a reformed man.
Did he become a Death Nibbler while still at H-warts? If so, what does this imply about the security, neutrality, etc. of the school itself? Is there an active recruiting campaign to enlist students to the Dark Side? How did it all work? Was there also a Good Side group operative at the school? If Snape was not involved until he finished H-warts, that leaves 3 years for so-called active duty with the DEs and then a return to Good Side. Seems like such a short time frame, doesn't it?
This brings up a whole bunch of question regarding VWI and how it was fought, but I'll save that for another thread.
What about the period immediately after the 1981 ousting of V. from power? What is Snape doing then (I know that he applies for the DADA job at H-warts, but I'm wondering where his loyalties are and what he's doing just before that)?
Your thoughts, please.
Ciao. Barb
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 1:01 pm (#249 of 644)
I'd find it hard to swallow if it turns out the reason that Snape is horrible to Harry or Neville was because he was responsible for what happened to their parents.
I always thought that he was mean to Hermione because she's muggle-born but seems to be a better witch at her age than anyone else (resulting in cognitive dissonance), he's mean to Harry because his dad was a jerk, but it's a mystery why he's mean to Neville, unless it's just because of Neville being a lousy student.
I wonder why Neville's boggart was Snape, anyway? I'm sure you've all discussed this to death already, though.
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 2:05 pm (#250 of 644)
Madame Librarian:
I've wondered myself what Snape was doing after school and before he became a professor.
He said to Umbridge that he'd been teaching for fourteen years, and that was Harry's fifth year, so he would have started a couple of months before Harry's parents were killed.
Say that was 1980, and what you said about him possibly graduating in 1977 and it being only a few years to become a Death Eater and reform isn't a lot of time. You may be right about there being a Death Nibbler group at Hogwarts.
I really don't think Snape was the one who heard the prophecy, but it's possible. I'm still 50/50 on that. The prophecy was made before Harry's birth, but the actual attack on him and his parents wasn't until he was a bit over a year old, so a lot depends on when Snape became a spy.
As I said, I could be reading too much into Snape's attitude with Neville, but I just feel there has to be more to it than Neville's lack of potions skills.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 3, 2003 2:35 pm (#251 of 644)
If we don't take the fourteen years to literally, I would say, it makes more sense, that Snape started in Hogwarts shortly after James and Lily's death., at the end of 1981, perhaps. Otherwise Voldemort might become suspicious, if one of his Death Eathers suddenly starts teaching for Dumbledore.
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 2:38 pm (#252 of 644)
Neville:
I always thought that it was part of Voldie's plan to have Snape at Hogwarts spying on Dumbledore even if Snape is really spying on Voldie FOR Dumbledore.
Neville Longbottom - Oct 3, 2003 2:53 pm (#253 of 644)
You are right, of course. That's entirely possible.
S.E. Jones - Oct 3, 2003 4:02 pm (#254 of 644)
Mdm Librarian: If Snape was not involved until he finished H-warts, that leaves 3 years for so-called active duty with the DEs and then a return to Good Side. Seems like such a short time frame, doesn't it?
Well, how long do you think it would take someone to get involved in a violent group and then realize that they were in over their head and want out? I don't think it would take long. Maybe he simply realized that what they were doing was wrong or felt some moral twinges at the thought of killing someone or maybe the killing simply got to him. Either way, I don't think the three year time frame is too short.....
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 6:21 pm (#255 of 644)
I seriously doubt he woke up one day and realized that he was wrong. There's got to be a better reason that he changed sides.
Pisceswicca - Oct 3, 2003 6:51 pm (#256 of 644)
Weenie Owl - I like that one. That makes a lot of sense. Not too complicated, very simple, but very possible. But what would give DD the assurance that Snape acutally WAS on Good's side? Whatever it is must be a very, very big deal - it's the reason for why DD trusts him like he does. How does he prove to DD that although he's a "double agent" he's actually NOT telling Lordy about HIS plans. And how does he prove it to Voldemort? Oh, yes, Occlumency... Anybody has anything to say about this thread of thought?
Madame Librarian - Oct 3, 2003 7:12 pm (#257 of 644)
If it's true what Weeny and Pisceswicca are saying--that Snape is possibly not just a double agent, but a triple agent (telling V. he'll pretend to be good, spy on DD, etal., then telling DD that he'll really be on the Good Side and tell DD what the DEs are planning), that means he's in a very precarious position. He has to be sooo careful. By the end of GoF, he's had to do some pretty tricky dancing (behind the scenes) to keep V. and the DEs convinced he's on their side and his overtly awful treatment of Harry may be partially due to this, but it's also got to keep Snape totally stressed and cranky out all the time. His full story is the one I'm most eager to hear (oh, and Petunia's, too). I'll be disappointed if it's not twisty and complex.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 7:22 pm (#258 of 644)
It's starting to sound like some spy movie spoof.
I really do think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and the Order, but I also think that Voldie planned on Snape being at Hogwarts so that after the Potters and Harry were killed, Voldie would have an inside man. He didn't realize, of course, that Snape's loyalties were no longer with him, though. Since it seems that he pretty much planned on taking over the entire Wizarding World and maybe the entire world in general, Hogwarts would have been a fairly good place to start after he eliminated Harry and his parents. But the best laid plans of mice and Dark Lords...
I don't think Snape is still a Voldie supporter, and whatever happened to turn him away from the Dark Arts and get Dumbledore's support has to be huge. Not just a promise or a little thing, but something that would leave Dumbledore with no shadow of a doubt whatsoever that Snape is on the side of good, his personality notwithstanding.
Somewhere along the line, Snape will be found out, even if it's near the end of the seventh book. I do hope he isn't one of the casualities, though, and that eventually he and Harry can develop at least a friendly relationship.
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 10:40 pm (#259 of 644)
At the end of Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore says something like "There are some wounds too deep for healing", referring to Snape and James's emnity. I took this to mean that there isn't going to be any reconciliation between Harry and Snape.
Sly Girl - Oct 3, 2003 10:48 pm (#260 of 644)
Yes, as long as Snape continues to think that Harry is just as bad as James (arrogantly speaking) and as long as Harry continues to put up such a brick wall between them, the two of them will get nowhere. Or perhaps it will be tragic and Harry and Snape will finally come to an understanding about each other and then one of them will die trying to save the other...
I'm a bit morbid tonight.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:28 am (#261 of 644)
Well, all of you have taken the words out of my mouth, hehe...Yes, some wounds are too deep for healing, and DD was referring to Snape and James, but that doesn't mean that there won't be closure for Snape and Harry. FINALLY there HAS to be some closure to the whole issue, that's the point. What couldn't be "mended" or "healed" with James will be with Harry. Harry is a different person, and Snape will see that. Of course this is sounding like James was this terrible and awful person, but yet I'm pretty sure that Snape will realize that James and Harry are not the same person.
On the other hand, I think there's much more to this James-Snape issue than what meets the eye. The images in the Pensieve were just a glimpse of more to come. We don't know what else really happened between Snape and James, we'll find out in Book 7, most probably. I'm not sure if the whole lot of them were involved (Lily, Lupin, James and Sirius) or if it was just a James and Snape issue or a James and Snape and Lily issue or whatever, but there's defenitely much more we don't know yet.
I stand by my belief that with Harry and Snape, one will risk his life to save the other.
There WILL be closure. With James AND with Harry.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:36 am (#262 of 644)
Oh, and another thing, needless to say, I DO think that Snape is loyal to DD and to the Order. He must have done something awfully serious to give DD the assurance that he's on his size. You'll all see me repeating and repeating this last thing, but only because I'm so convinced that it's true!
And a thing about what Rowling said, that we "shouldn't like Snape too much." Now, I haven't read or heard that interview or didn't really read too much on discussions concerning that, but maybe she just said that to throw us off. Maybe...? Just a thought...
Back to the subject at hand...Snape is just simply a fascinating mystery...
Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2003 12:44 am (#263 of 644)
It might have to be something Harry does to risk his life for Snape. There have been enough instances already where Snape has saved Harry, and even though he's angry at the world, he may be empathetic enough to listen if someone points them out to him. I really see Harry as a fairly compassionate person, more the Dumbledore type, who doesn't want to hate anyone. Of course, he'll have to work through a lot of stuff first, but hopefully by the end of the sixth book, he will.
Then I can picture the ending confrontation of the sixth book to include Harry and Snape along with the Death Eaters (Voldie included or not) whereby Harry manages to save Snape's role as a spy and perhaps his life as well.
Snape being Snape would have to think a long time about what happened since he doesn't like letting go of grudges, so that near the end of the last book, he finally sees Harry as an individual. He and Snape and whoever else are in the final battle with Voldie and from there, who knows... they're friends, one mourns the passing of the other, or the Wizarding World mourns the passing of both.
Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 12:49 am (#264 of 644)
OK, I have missed out on a LOT. I was here just after the 5th book came out, because I remember posting a thread named 'So what was everyone's first thoughts' or something along those lines. I left because of other site taking up my time (the shame) and would like to get back into the jist. So could someone tell me what the low-down on this thread is, whats been happening, basically a summary of the discussions in here so far.
Madame Librarian - Oct 4, 2003 4:52 am (#265 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 5:54 am
Welcome, Ricky Warner. As you can see from even a small snippet of this thread, most comments are well thought out and try hard stay on the sub-topic per moment.
I'm afraid you're just going to have to do your homework and read the old postings. It's kind of a rite of passage to get in the groove, so to speak, with what folks are discussing. You don't have to go all the way back to the old temporary Forum, perhaps, but I'd suggest you at least read from our return to WX. Approx. the 29th of Aug., I think.
Right, everyone?
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 11:33 am (#266 of 644)
Yes, that's just about right, I think.
Welcome Ricky!
Weeny Owl and Pisceswicca, I say "here here!". I think exactly the same things.
As for the "we shouldn't feel too sorry for him", I believe Rowling said this before book 5? I think she was saying it because of the horrible way he treats Harry. I love Snape, and I admire him too, but this wasn't so in the beginning; in the first books I'd grip my book really hard because I got angry at Snape, but little by little I let go of that; in Occlumency and in class, Snape is horrible to Harry, but I can't help but feel amused as I read their conversations. I know I'm not the only one that loves to see the way the speak to each other, because it's interesting how intense their "relationship" is, and we love to see Harry answer back ,etc, to see Snape's reaction. But on the other hand, I'm sure that many have the same attitude I had when I was first reading the books. When Rowling said this, I think she was predicting that many would still get angry at Snape when they saw how horrible he is to Harry.
If she said this after we all had a chance to read OoP, she could have said it for the same reason (maybe Snape will be even worse with Harry?), or because Snape will do something bad (which I find unlikely), in which case you should throw my post down the toilet, hehe.
Long Live Snape!
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 11:55 am (#267 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 12:57 pm
Actually Rose Marie, the comment was made after OotP came out during the Royal Albert Hall interview:
Stephen Fry: Yes, and even in the books there is a certain flair. Most characters like Snape are hard to love but there is a sort of ambiguity ? you can?t quite decide - something sad about him ? lonely and it?s fascinating when you think he?s going to be the evil one a party from Voldemort obviously in the first book then slowly you get this idea he?s not so bad after all.
JK Rowling: Yes but you shouldn?t think him too nice. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus definitely!
I think the comment's there more to show that, though he's on the same side as Harry and Dd, he's still a git....
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 4, 2003 12:03 pm (#268 of 644)
thanks S.E. I agree but i think he might betray DD personally. Not seriously but just a small thing and i bt it has somethingto do with Harry.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 12:25 pm (#269 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:29 pm
I just realized I put "here here" instead of "hear hear". Is it hear or here??!!!
Laura Angel (by the way I've got a sister called Laura, hehe):If that does happen, I don't think it would be worse than him not giving Harry Occlumency classes anymore.
Well now that I think about it him having put a stop to Occlumency was very very serious, it made Harry go to the MoM in the first place.
Well I still think JKR meant that to say that we'll still be seeing Snape being horrible to Harry.
And thatnks for that part of the interview, S.E!
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:33 pm (#270 of 644)
Yes, he might betray DD on something small, with something that has something to do with Harry. But I still think he'll redeem himself in the end. And as a response to the thread that Weeny Owl and I were talking about, yes, it may be that HARRY does something to save SNAPE'S life, and that maybe that because the way it happens Snape will realize that Harry is different to what he thought he was.
At the same time, maybe Snape IS mean to Harry (and to Neville) because of some reason we don't quite know about...
But going back to that, maybe Harry will save Snape's life, and because of the life-debt thing, Snape will save Harry's. And maybe he'll die doing it. Just a thought of how the things I think most probably happen will happen. Can anybody sort of "perfect" the way I've expressed my thoughts? He, he...
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 12:39 pm (#271 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:40 pm
Rose, it's "hear hear"... You had it right....
I don't think Snape's gonna stab Dd in the back. He's shown a lot of trust in Severus, there must be a reason for that, right?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 12:47 pm (#272 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:48 pm
Thanks S.E.! I'm a bit embarassed now,though (because of my mistake, not because you corrected me-it had been on my request,anyway).
I had always assumed that Snape would save Harry's life, but I've thought it through and it will be interesting if Harry saves Snape's life, as Pisceswicca pointed out. But that would also make Snape be angry, because of the whole "life-debt" thing. I doubt he'll be grateful, though.. . Maybe he'll be amazed at what lengths Harry has gone to to save Snape, maybe that's why he'll stop being so awful to Harry.
schoff - Oct 4, 2003 1:05 pm (#273 of 644)
Edited by Oct 4, 2003 2:09 pm
But Snape's already proactively saved Harry's life. He did it in P/SS during the first Quidditch game, and in GoF when he stunned Crouch, Jr. Or do those not count?
For the GoF example, Harry was on the verge of imminent death.
Neville Longbottom - Oct 4, 2003 1:10 pm (#274 of 644)
Snape also played a very important role in saving Harry's life at the end of OOTP.
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 1:21 pm (#275 of 644)
schoff: and in GoF when he stunned Crouch, Jr.
Do you mean when Crouch Jr was stunned when he was about to attack Harry at the end? That wasn't Snape, it was Dd....
schoff - Oct 4, 2003 1:27 pm (#276 of 644)
Huh, you're right, SE. Only DD had his wand out... (GoF, US, ch35, 679). I always pictured DD, McGonagall, and Snape as doing the spell together, and that's why it was so powerful that it broke the door and threw Crouch across the room...
Hmm...I guess that just leaves Snape helping Harry in P/SS, and Harry wasn't yet at the point of immediately dying, so it might not have acquired life-debt status...
Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2003 1:40 pm (#277 of 644)
Well, in a way, Snape has already betrayed Dumbledore by not continuing the Occlumency lessons. I don't see Snape betraying Dumbledore in a huge way, though. Dumbledore is smart enough and wise enough not to put his trust in someone too much. As he said, he'd forgotten a few things such as how young men think, and that scars can run too deep for the healing, but I doubt if he'd see the end of Occlumency as a betrayal.
Snape has saved Harry, but it could be taken in ways other than a true life-debt. In the first book, even if Harry had fallen off his broom, there's no way of telling if he would have ended up with broken bones or if it could actually have been fatal. The other instances may or may not have saved Harry's life.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 5:50 pm (#278 of 644)
Mmm...yeah, maybe Snape WOULD be a little angry if Harry saved his life. But maybe the relationship will have gotten a little "better" by then, I don't know. Maybe that's stretching it a little. I still think, now that I think about it again, that it's Snape that's going to save Harry's life. Aaah, now I'm confused - it could be anyone of them. It IS going to be one of them, though.
And yes, DD IS too smart for anywone to stab him in the back like that. If he trusts Snape it's for a very valid reason.
zixyer - Oct 4, 2003 7:01 pm (#279 of 644)
I think Hermione was more responsible for saving Harry's life than Snape was. I guess you could say she removed all the risk from the situation, but had she not intervened, Quirrel could still have won over Snape and Harry could have died. So I don't think Snape's action in PS/SS count towards fulfilling his life debt.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 4, 2003 9:31 pm (#280 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 10:44 pm
I must repeat here, I have stated it previously on one of the boards, but I think that Snape is the spy that told DD that Voldemort was on the move for the Potters. Somewhere it is stated that at great risk to himself, the spy reported to DD the info just before VM attacked them. Somewhere else it states that Snape was a spy to DD (Sorry that I don't have the exact quotes and source right here, it's very late and very tired). Now that we know about Snape's legilimens and occlumency abilities, I think even more, that Snape was that spy. If Snape had spied for DD and provided that kind of information, that could well explain why DD trusts him so much and why DD is protecting him by having Severus teach at Hogwarts, just like he is protecting Professor Trelawney.
Snape has been on DD's side for quite sometime, certainly since the Potter's murder, but IMP, since sometime before the Potters were killed. However, I don't believe that Snape, like VM knows the content of the prophesy. I think that would help explain why Snape seems bent on getting Harry expelled. It also help explain Snapes snide comments to Harry that he is nothing special.
I love to hate Snape and have perused this thread but haven't posted because there is so much here and Snape is such a complex character. Snape can't be view or understood in a simple the good vs the bad. Like his underpants, Snape has so many shades of grey, I can't wait to see him in book 6.
NOTE: To Gina R. Snape, you're DSMIV analysis of Snape was just wonderful, I've wondered if you could post it here (I have looked for it and haven't found it).
Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 9:52 pm (#281 of 644)
Ummm... I agree with you. But I was just wondering, seeing as it may be earlier and less tiring to find the quotes for a thing like that. As many people used to say here: I reckon it 'holds water'.
Grant the Great - Oct 4, 2003 10:16 pm (#282 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 11:17 pm
Hehe! "Holds water!" I finally read most of that archived thread. BTW, you all can count me in on the DIGS (if any of you even care still!).
OK, going back to Snape. Have any of you considered what type of boy Snape was. I posted this on the "Bucking Broomstick" thread, but I think it also fits here, so I'm also going to copy it here (wow, that was repetetive in a very repeating repetition!):
I always just thought Snape was trying to mount a broomstick unsuccessfully. I doubt it was outside influence. And, I must say that I have been in a position of being the totally outcast, scrawny kid at that age (I've come a long way, thought I'm still rather thin). If that means anything to anyone, I'll write on on my interpretation of what Snape must have been like as a child. If he was like me--which I think he was--then he was very studious, because it was the only thing he could succeed in to any degree (given, he studied mostly the Dark Arts, but, anyway). Though he always spoke poorly of the popular people (James, for instance), he cried himself to sleep many nights, wishing that he could switch places for just an hour (I still do that sometimes). He would have thus tried to be the jock he knew he couldn't be (sorry, Snape, you're not a quidditch player). He thus failed miserably and the girl he liked laughed at him (Lily?). He thus became even more withdrawn and bitter, hating his father for being abusive (yeah, the parallels are not here anymore) and for not raising him to be like a jock. Anyway, you get the idea. The amazing thing is, though, that he fought James. Most of the people like that that I knew (including me) just preferred to watch at the sidelines, imagining tackling that stupid jock!!! OK, now you all get the idea of what I'm trying to say.
So, yeah . . . and on the matter of Neville that somebody brought up . . . I LOVE your idea! It makes sense! I have done the same thing before (and regretted it, mind you). I look back and see a poor, teased kid. I contribute to his self-degrading, in a sense of justice and divine purpose (yeah, I have had some very diluted moments). It feels like . . . "Yeah, life's tough, but you didn't have it as tough as I did. If you can accept more of this taunting from me, then you will grow into someone that I am now, which I am very happy to be."
And, just so you know, I'm totally over all of the stages presented above. I don't want any of you to think that I'm like Snape, cause I'm probably more like Lupin that anybody.
Madame Librarian - Oct 5, 2003 4:47 am (#283 of 644)
Mrs. Sirius, I'm being dense I suppose, but what is DSMIV? (Also, please read thread down below titled "We are S.C.A.R." It's about abbreviations and acronyms.)
Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Ladybug220 - Oct 5, 2003 8:14 am (#284 of 644)
Edited by Oct 5, 2003 9:14 am
Madame Librarian,
The DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders #4) is the the manual that psychiatrists/psychologists use in their practices because it has the complete listings and symptoms of mental disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder (manic depression), schziohrenia, MPD (multiple personality disorder) etc
Madame Librarian - Oct 5, 2003 8:35 am (#285 of 644)
Aaah...thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 5, 2003 11:22 am (#286 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 12:24 pm
Oh yes I did want to ask you all to please lay low on those tough abreviations! I don't get all of them and it's abit frustrating trying to figure out what means what in order to give certain sentences any sense. Thank you
(just so you know in case you didn't, I'm not a monitor or anything so you don't have to pay attention to me if you don't want to).
I was reading your lasts posts, and I really don't have much to say, except that reading them I've thought to myself what a lonely and sad person Snape is. From the looks of it, he's got no one; it doesn't look like he had anything to lose when he became a Death Eater, yet he turned to the good side. There's still hope for the man (I'm saying it for those who think he's not good!).
Pink Arjuna - Oct 5, 2003 11:59 am (#287 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 1:18 pm
I think Snape is a jaded man. There is no doubt of this. Systematic bullying or abuse suggests this. Harry looks like James. Would snape feel the same if the potters had had a girl?? male and female roles play a big part in the books. I doubt Snape loved Lilly as she was a muggle born and therefore he would have little interest in her if his families entrenched ideals were passed on to him.
I believe him to be in a transitional period. He is neither entirely evil or good. He has deep magic conecting him to James so I doubt if he will do Harry in. Perhaps dumbledore used verituserum on him as well as legilimens and not to mention he has known the bloke for years. His whole history will be knowledge on some level for dumbledore. Perhaps the school robes were changed because of snape's upsidedown bullying... the boys wear trousus now... not long dress type robes as they did in the pensieve.... We have little knowledge of the methods used to aquire truth from wizards.
I think Snape will ruin Harrys chances of being an auror. He never takes anyone without an outstanding and to be honest Harry has given snape and excuse to persicute him in this sense as he has never worked hard enough and shouldn't get special treatment. I believe he will cause mayhem on this front in the future books. He may keep Harry alive but ruining his career choice and bullying him is no small act of maliciousness. However we learn about regulus black that he was foolish and thought Voldemort was on the right track. Perhaps his past has him so scared and he did just as his slytherin peers did. he can't have been more than about 20 maximum when he joined voldemort and we know voldemort would have promised whatever anyone wished for themselves to join him.
Perhaps his period as a death eater helped him realise his power as a wizard yet he had no real life experience to know the true nature of life. He had bad experiences but what of love? is he capeable of love? could he even let someone love him? has he loved at all? He is short of aquaintances as he rarely leaves hogwarts and also doesn't socialize with other staff members. However he could have friends we don't know about... He is lonely on an emotional level as he chooses to despise a memory rather than move on and live in the present. The Dark arts could empower him mentally where he always thought he was a falier... who knows... But he succeeded on being in voldemorts inner circle so perhaps this is the one time he has been appreciated for his abilities where he was not overshadowed by others. Perhaps Draco reminds him of himself? Father moulding him into a little idiot... we are a product of our environments as well as the choices we make. Even though Draco is vindictive he is sheltered and perhaps Snape is trying to value him in the only way he knows how to, as Slytherins are always overlooked and hogwarts. We forget though that Draco will have no father at home at least for the next little while even though the big bad will probably break them out.
He could be many different people in one. I don't doubt he'll make Harrys life hell. Even though harry doesn't deserve this treatment he does provoke some level of aggrivation as he gets away with everything. He can't respect the privacy of someones memories and thinks the world revolves around him. Not to mention he'll risk his life for some dung bombs (poa) as he doesn't yet realise sirius is good.
I do believe Snape is more like Harry than Harry is like James. they have been systematically bullied however Harry has become humbled and Snape embittered. From the legilimens class I believe snape has become similar in manner to his father (remember in poa when his face is shoved up next to harrys? and then his mother is in the same position with his father) Also Snape believes controlling emotions is the way to strength, he poorly misunderstands that he needs to except and that no matter how well he can control his emotions they still explode at times as he needs to address them not bury them.
The man needs to be given a chance. He needs to give himself a chance. Most importantly he needs to progress, or for lack of better words grow up.... but we don't know the extent of his past agonies and perhaps he has turned out better than he might have...
As a death eater he is likely to have done something terrible... however surviving sometimes means doing something terrible. Voldemort is ultimately the architect of evil and doing his bidding or dying is no easy choice. Also Snape would have been magically bound to James after the attempted killing by sirius and therefore like pettigrew the Dark lord has someone in Potters debt.
Pisceswicca - Oct 5, 2003 1:06 pm (#288 of 644)
Pink Arjuna and Grant the Great - LOVED your last posts. It's how I see Snape as well, if a brief analysis of his character and personality is what we're talking about. Again, loved your last posts.
Pink Arjuna - Oct 5, 2003 2:58 pm (#289 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 4:16 pm
Oh I am deply interested in old severus!!! I hated him at first but he has long been the most intriquing character in the books. There is something so withdrawn about him that simple thought can not be contemplated when it comes to this character.
Gina R Snape wrote these next two paragraphs, It summarized what I said in about a gazillion and added a little emphasis to my 2 knuts: Thanks Gina! I am not as die hard as you but this sums him up entirely.
------------------------------
The Snape I see is a complex and fascinating man. Snape has the feel of a man who's been around the block a few times and has the scars to show it... but he's not yet reached an age where the tell-tale signs of wisdom, thoughtful reflection and patience start kicking in. He's clearly had a hard life, even if we only know a smattering of details (we can make respectable guesses)...and he's been around long enough to become hardened, cynical and embittered.
Yet there's still those traces of an angry young man: He harbours a lot of rage, resentment and jealousy...and has a nasty, often childish and petty, vindictive streak running through him. There's an underlying hint of an insecure person desperately seeking respect, who's unsure of his mark and his worth in the world and is seemingly disappointed that he hasn't become more than he has.
------------------------------
I also think he is eyes wide shut. You know can't see reason when it stares him in the face. He needed to believe implicitly in sirius's guilt to justify his action... or intended action. We will never know if old padfoot (my other favourite) would have had his face sucked off or not..... if it had been different... it is that 'unsure' to what lengths he'll go to while not being 'evil' that interests me most. Dumbledore is the mans breaks.... maybe he would be on a fast track to hell without old Albus...
Gina R Snape - Oct 5, 2003 7:26 pm (#290 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 8:31 pm
Pink Arjuna and Mrs. Sirius, thanks for your notice of my posts. I actually reposted (and slightly edited) the above elsewhere on this very thread. To paraphrase Snape Might I suggest...using the search function.
As for my DSM-IV discussion, I shall look for it tomorrow and repost it here, with pleasure.
Ricky, welcome back. In a nutshell, some people still believe Snape to be bad. Some people can now, after OoP, properly appreciate the man the way I believe he ought to be appreciated. Some of us love him more than ever. Some are doubtful, but more intrigued than ever, as he is clearly one of the most complicated characters in the books. We are all dying to find out loads of history about him and what goes on behind that alluring/mysterious/loathsome (as you choose) exterior.
I guess you could say, the more things change...the more they stay the same.
To those pondering why DD trusts Snape, and the whole issue about the prophecy, I would be over the moon if you read my thread "My theory regarding Snape and the prophecy." It is Snape-centric (well, it is MY theory so it'd have to be), but I think holds some water nonetheless.
Gina R Snape "My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophecy" 9/23/03 12:13pm
(Sorry if that doesn't take you to the beginning of the thread. Links are not exactly my speciality).
Now, how am I to catch up on all the other threads without the use of some dark magic of my own?!?!
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 6, 2003 3:50 am (#291 of 644)
Gina, I absolutely love your theory of the prophecy. BRAVO!!! (clapping hands enthusiastically).
Gina R Snape - Oct 6, 2003 8:14 am (#292 of 644)
:blushes: Thanks, darlin'
Ok, by popular request, I am reposting the Psych. Analysis I posted months ago on the EZBoard. Please keep in mind it was in response to others, in the midst of a discussion on Severus' mental health.
Post:
Well, I am not a Psychiatrist. But I am an MSW (Master's in Social Work) and have worked for many years with homeless adults and families in shelters, and also provided therapy to children in foster care. It is of course impossible to come up with a "real" diagnosis of a fictional character when we cannot "observe" his everyday behaviour nor interview him for subjective data. That doesn't mean we can't have fun with this... I apologise in advance for the length of this post.
But I can tell you flat out that Severus does not appear to have a Conduct Disorder (a childhood dx) or the adult equivalent of Antisocial Personality Disorder. He expresses remorse. He expresses sympathy (just not for Harry and co!). He doesn't provoke physical fights (Sirius fans may argue this one). And he *is* able to control his emotions and actions at will. Otherwise he would never listen to Dumbledore's orders, and he would not be any good at Occlumency. He also does not present with mood swings typical of Bipolar disorder. The DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) lists specific criteria for mental health diagnoses (dx), in case anyone is interested. I didn't want to post all the criteria for the various dx suggestions. But I think Disthymic Disorder (your garden variety non-episodic depression) might fit the bill.
"Depressed mood for most of the day, for more days than not, as indicated either by subjective account or observation by others, for at least 2 years. Note: In children and adolescents, mood can be irritable and duration must be at least 1 year."
Presence, while depressed, of two (or more) of the following:
1. poor appetite or overeating (he is very thin)
2. insomnia or hypersomnia (he does prowl the castle at night)
3. low energy or fatigue (we can't know this one)
4. low self-esteem (quite apparent in our little Severus)
5. poor concentration or difficulty making decisions (n/a)
6. feelings of hopelessness (again, we can't know, but I wouldn't be surprised).
If we take into account his assumed abusive history (familial and peers), and I think zapping flies alone in a room sounds pretty depressing besides, we have a very good candidate with this one. Anger and severe sarcasm are often outward manifestations of depression and insecurity. Good call on that one. While the greasy hair comments are debatable, they could be a sign of neglected self-care (hygiene) typical of depression and low self-esteem. Also, social workers look at the person in his/her environment. Severus has plenty of reasons to be depressed! Need I list them all?
He might also have some mild features of an Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. While I would never say full-blown,the tendencies are there. Of the 7 or 8 features in the DSM, I think he seems to present with include:
1. preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost (on an occasional basis he will be rigid about rules and such, but it seems more manipulative than obssessive IMO, so it's highly debatable so I thought I'd throw it in anyway)
2. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
3. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
4. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes (to me he seems particular about his clothes, but is not extravagant. Greying pants may be a reluctance to purchase new ones, but we don't really know how he spends his money)
5. shows rigidity and stubbornness (e.g. insists on being called Sir or Professor)
I would recommend an anti-depressant, self-esteem building exercises (an Order of Merlin would help), therapy, and a LOT of TLC from yours truly.
popkin - Oct 6, 2003 8:29 am (#293 of 644)
Everyone was right. That was a very enlightening post.
Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2003 8:40 am (#294 of 644)
Gina - "I would recommend an anti-depressant, self-esteem building exercises (an Order of Merlin would help), therapy, and a LOT of TLC from yours truly."
That sounds reasonable to me. Either you'd cure him of his existing problem or he'd just have you spend a few months chopping armadillo spleens or something.
I've greatly enjoyed reading your views on Snape. You've obviously put a lot of thought into his motivations and his personality. You've given me some insights that have me waffling sometimes on my opinion of him.
I've often wondered about the Pensieve scene and the graying undies. I don't know what the routine is for laundry at Hogwarts, but if the house elves do the laundry and if Snape's undies aren't white, then if he isn't having his laundry done, it would fit your diagnosis of depression and not caring about personal hygiene.
Snape is a character I just can't quite like but that I can't quite dislike either, but he does have a hypnotic way about him that is intriguing.
Gina R Snape - Oct 7, 2003 9:43 am (#295 of 644)
Thanks Weeny Owl.
On a side note, I think the greying undies are more a sign of poverty. There are only so many times you can wash a pair of underpants before they are not white anymore. Especially if you mix them in with black robes...
Weeny Owl - Oct 7, 2003 2:41 pm (#296 of 644)
Gina:
Poverty is an obvious explanation that just zoomed right over my head; another superb observation, I must say. It might explain even more about some of his bitterness. Ron certainly has difficulties with his family's lack of money, but he seems to have a loving family structure that, from that one scene during Occlumency, Snape seems to have lacked.
Denise P. - Oct 7, 2003 6:23 pm (#297 of 644)
Rather than a sign of poverty, I took it as a sign that Severus did his own laundry (indicating noninvolvement by a parent..neglect if you will) and didn't know that you wash whites seperate from other colors.
Pisceswicca - Oct 7, 2003 7:07 pm (#298 of 644)
Gina R. Snape - I absolutely LOVED your theory of Snape regarding the Prophecy. Simple yet so brilliant and obvious! The ONLY thing that's on my mind is - being the evil "being" that he is, why on EARTH would Voldie care about Snape's life-debt and whether it's Snape's duty to fulfill it? He's a DE, for crying out loud! There should be no room for owing anybody anything! Maybe there's something that I'm missing out on here, and maybe even the most evil of them all absolutely MUST fulfill such a debt, even agains one's own will, but I don't recall that (mmm, I'm not sure now). But again, it's Voldemort, why should he care? He has killed and tortured in cold blood. He drank UNICORN'S blood. He's CURSED because of that. Why should he care about a life-debt that one of his DE's has?
And another thing. I STILL think there's more Snape did other than warn DD about Voldy's plans and save the Potter's so that he could trust him like he does. Yes, it WAS at great risk that he did what he did, and he DID try and save the Potters' lives, but he could've been doing that just to APPEAR to be on DD's side, and LET DD think that he's on his side and really still be on Voldy's side. Now, I love Snape's character, but I think that if DD trusts Snape the way that he does there must have been something ELSE that he did, something even MORE important than telling DD about Voldy's plans to kill the Potters. And if I were DD, I'd be thinking to myself - how does Snape know this, and what is the reason Voldy would have to kill the Potters? Yes, Lordy killed people at randomly and at will for merely not being on his side, but for Snape to warn DD about the POTTERS in particular? There MUST be a reason for this. That would lead DD to question Snape about his motives. OH, YES! Snape's life debt to James - I forgot!!! But still, if I were DD, and knowing how wise and astute he is, I wouldn't think that the life-debt was all there was to it.
And if it really were Snape that told DD about the Prophecy, wouldn't that mean that HARRY owes him a life-debt now? Would him having been a baby apply anyway? What can anybody tell me about this?
Now, like I said, I LOVED YOUR POST, Gina R. Snape, but if it is so, those are the questions and minor doubts, if you will, that I have. I know my thoughts are a little jumbled up and rash, probably. Does anyone have anything to say about all this? Replies very, very, very welcome! :-D
Pisceswicca - Oct 7, 2003 7:12 pm (#299 of 644)
Ok, another thing, going back to what I JUST posted - ok, so let's say that DD thinks that Snape is warning about Voldy's plans for the Potters because he's fulfilling a life-debt, and he's "switching" sides, so he says. That still doesn't prove that he's not still a DE? Ok, so he fulfills a life-debt because he HAS to, not because he wants to. And he SAYS he's turning to DD. So what? That really doesn't prove anything.
Of course, this is all assuming we want to question Snape's credibility. I'm trying to put myself in DD's position at the time, or ANYBODY'S for that matter, if Snape had come to them. Anybody?
S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2003 9:18 pm (#300 of 644)
Firstly, Pink Arjuna: Perhaps the school robes were changed because of snape's upsidedown bullying... the boys wear trousus now... not long dress type robes as they did in the pensieve....
Um, that's the movie, not the books. As far as I can tell, except for a few instances where robes are thrown on over muggle clothes, they do still wear those types of robes....
Secondly, Gina, as always, I love your insight into Severus's psyche. I, like Denise, saw the greying undies as lack of parental involvement. I saw the fact that they were grey pointing to the fact that they were old which to me says that his parents didn't buy new clothes, either because they were poor or because they simply didn't spend much money on their child.
If we don't take the fourteen years to literally, I would say, it makes more sense, that Snape started in Hogwarts shortly after James and Lily's death., at the end of 1981, perhaps. Otherwise Voldemort might become suspicious, if one of his Death Eathers suddenly starts teaching for Dumbledore.
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 2:38 pm (#252 of 644)
Neville:
I always thought that it was part of Voldie's plan to have Snape at Hogwarts spying on Dumbledore even if Snape is really spying on Voldie FOR Dumbledore.
Neville Longbottom - Oct 3, 2003 2:53 pm (#253 of 644)
You are right, of course. That's entirely possible.
S.E. Jones - Oct 3, 2003 4:02 pm (#254 of 644)
Mdm Librarian: If Snape was not involved until he finished H-warts, that leaves 3 years for so-called active duty with the DEs and then a return to Good Side. Seems like such a short time frame, doesn't it?
Well, how long do you think it would take someone to get involved in a violent group and then realize that they were in over their head and want out? I don't think it would take long. Maybe he simply realized that what they were doing was wrong or felt some moral twinges at the thought of killing someone or maybe the killing simply got to him. Either way, I don't think the three year time frame is too short.....
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 6:21 pm (#255 of 644)
I seriously doubt he woke up one day and realized that he was wrong. There's got to be a better reason that he changed sides.
Pisceswicca - Oct 3, 2003 6:51 pm (#256 of 644)
Weenie Owl - I like that one. That makes a lot of sense. Not too complicated, very simple, but very possible. But what would give DD the assurance that Snape acutally WAS on Good's side? Whatever it is must be a very, very big deal - it's the reason for why DD trusts him like he does. How does he prove to DD that although he's a "double agent" he's actually NOT telling Lordy about HIS plans. And how does he prove it to Voldemort? Oh, yes, Occlumency... Anybody has anything to say about this thread of thought?
Madame Librarian - Oct 3, 2003 7:12 pm (#257 of 644)
If it's true what Weeny and Pisceswicca are saying--that Snape is possibly not just a double agent, but a triple agent (telling V. he'll pretend to be good, spy on DD, etal., then telling DD that he'll really be on the Good Side and tell DD what the DEs are planning), that means he's in a very precarious position. He has to be sooo careful. By the end of GoF, he's had to do some pretty tricky dancing (behind the scenes) to keep V. and the DEs convinced he's on their side and his overtly awful treatment of Harry may be partially due to this, but it's also got to keep Snape totally stressed and cranky out all the time. His full story is the one I'm most eager to hear (oh, and Petunia's, too). I'll be disappointed if it's not twisty and complex.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Oct 3, 2003 7:22 pm (#258 of 644)
It's starting to sound like some spy movie spoof.
I really do think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and the Order, but I also think that Voldie planned on Snape being at Hogwarts so that after the Potters and Harry were killed, Voldie would have an inside man. He didn't realize, of course, that Snape's loyalties were no longer with him, though. Since it seems that he pretty much planned on taking over the entire Wizarding World and maybe the entire world in general, Hogwarts would have been a fairly good place to start after he eliminated Harry and his parents. But the best laid plans of mice and Dark Lords...
I don't think Snape is still a Voldie supporter, and whatever happened to turn him away from the Dark Arts and get Dumbledore's support has to be huge. Not just a promise or a little thing, but something that would leave Dumbledore with no shadow of a doubt whatsoever that Snape is on the side of good, his personality notwithstanding.
Somewhere along the line, Snape will be found out, even if it's near the end of the seventh book. I do hope he isn't one of the casualities, though, and that eventually he and Harry can develop at least a friendly relationship.
zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 10:40 pm (#259 of 644)
At the end of Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore says something like "There are some wounds too deep for healing", referring to Snape and James's emnity. I took this to mean that there isn't going to be any reconciliation between Harry and Snape.
Sly Girl - Oct 3, 2003 10:48 pm (#260 of 644)
Yes, as long as Snape continues to think that Harry is just as bad as James (arrogantly speaking) and as long as Harry continues to put up such a brick wall between them, the two of them will get nowhere. Or perhaps it will be tragic and Harry and Snape will finally come to an understanding about each other and then one of them will die trying to save the other...
I'm a bit morbid tonight.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:28 am (#261 of 644)
Well, all of you have taken the words out of my mouth, hehe...Yes, some wounds are too deep for healing, and DD was referring to Snape and James, but that doesn't mean that there won't be closure for Snape and Harry. FINALLY there HAS to be some closure to the whole issue, that's the point. What couldn't be "mended" or "healed" with James will be with Harry. Harry is a different person, and Snape will see that. Of course this is sounding like James was this terrible and awful person, but yet I'm pretty sure that Snape will realize that James and Harry are not the same person.
On the other hand, I think there's much more to this James-Snape issue than what meets the eye. The images in the Pensieve were just a glimpse of more to come. We don't know what else really happened between Snape and James, we'll find out in Book 7, most probably. I'm not sure if the whole lot of them were involved (Lily, Lupin, James and Sirius) or if it was just a James and Snape issue or a James and Snape and Lily issue or whatever, but there's defenitely much more we don't know yet.
I stand by my belief that with Harry and Snape, one will risk his life to save the other.
There WILL be closure. With James AND with Harry.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:36 am (#262 of 644)
Oh, and another thing, needless to say, I DO think that Snape is loyal to DD and to the Order. He must have done something awfully serious to give DD the assurance that he's on his size. You'll all see me repeating and repeating this last thing, but only because I'm so convinced that it's true!
And a thing about what Rowling said, that we "shouldn't like Snape too much." Now, I haven't read or heard that interview or didn't really read too much on discussions concerning that, but maybe she just said that to throw us off. Maybe...? Just a thought...
Back to the subject at hand...Snape is just simply a fascinating mystery...
Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2003 12:44 am (#263 of 644)
It might have to be something Harry does to risk his life for Snape. There have been enough instances already where Snape has saved Harry, and even though he's angry at the world, he may be empathetic enough to listen if someone points them out to him. I really see Harry as a fairly compassionate person, more the Dumbledore type, who doesn't want to hate anyone. Of course, he'll have to work through a lot of stuff first, but hopefully by the end of the sixth book, he will.
Then I can picture the ending confrontation of the sixth book to include Harry and Snape along with the Death Eaters (Voldie included or not) whereby Harry manages to save Snape's role as a spy and perhaps his life as well.
Snape being Snape would have to think a long time about what happened since he doesn't like letting go of grudges, so that near the end of the last book, he finally sees Harry as an individual. He and Snape and whoever else are in the final battle with Voldie and from there, who knows... they're friends, one mourns the passing of the other, or the Wizarding World mourns the passing of both.
Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 12:49 am (#264 of 644)
OK, I have missed out on a LOT. I was here just after the 5th book came out, because I remember posting a thread named 'So what was everyone's first thoughts' or something along those lines. I left because of other site taking up my time (the shame) and would like to get back into the jist. So could someone tell me what the low-down on this thread is, whats been happening, basically a summary of the discussions in here so far.
Madame Librarian - Oct 4, 2003 4:52 am (#265 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 5:54 am
Welcome, Ricky Warner. As you can see from even a small snippet of this thread, most comments are well thought out and try hard stay on the sub-topic per moment.
I'm afraid you're just going to have to do your homework and read the old postings. It's kind of a rite of passage to get in the groove, so to speak, with what folks are discussing. You don't have to go all the way back to the old temporary Forum, perhaps, but I'd suggest you at least read from our return to WX. Approx. the 29th of Aug., I think.
Right, everyone?
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 11:33 am (#266 of 644)
Yes, that's just about right, I think.
Welcome Ricky!
Weeny Owl and Pisceswicca, I say "here here!". I think exactly the same things.
As for the "we shouldn't feel too sorry for him", I believe Rowling said this before book 5? I think she was saying it because of the horrible way he treats Harry. I love Snape, and I admire him too, but this wasn't so in the beginning; in the first books I'd grip my book really hard because I got angry at Snape, but little by little I let go of that; in Occlumency and in class, Snape is horrible to Harry, but I can't help but feel amused as I read their conversations. I know I'm not the only one that loves to see the way the speak to each other, because it's interesting how intense their "relationship" is, and we love to see Harry answer back ,etc, to see Snape's reaction. But on the other hand, I'm sure that many have the same attitude I had when I was first reading the books. When Rowling said this, I think she was predicting that many would still get angry at Snape when they saw how horrible he is to Harry.
If she said this after we all had a chance to read OoP, she could have said it for the same reason (maybe Snape will be even worse with Harry?), or because Snape will do something bad (which I find unlikely), in which case you should throw my post down the toilet, hehe.
Long Live Snape!
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 11:55 am (#267 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 12:57 pm
Actually Rose Marie, the comment was made after OotP came out during the Royal Albert Hall interview:
Stephen Fry: Yes, and even in the books there is a certain flair. Most characters like Snape are hard to love but there is a sort of ambiguity ? you can?t quite decide - something sad about him ? lonely and it?s fascinating when you think he?s going to be the evil one a party from Voldemort obviously in the first book then slowly you get this idea he?s not so bad after all.
JK Rowling: Yes but you shouldn?t think him too nice. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus definitely!
I think the comment's there more to show that, though he's on the same side as Harry and Dd, he's still a git....
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 4, 2003 12:03 pm (#268 of 644)
thanks S.E. I agree but i think he might betray DD personally. Not seriously but just a small thing and i bt it has somethingto do with Harry.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 12:25 pm (#269 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:29 pm
I just realized I put "here here" instead of "hear hear". Is it hear or here??!!!
Laura Angel (by the way I've got a sister called Laura, hehe):If that does happen, I don't think it would be worse than him not giving Harry Occlumency classes anymore.
Well now that I think about it him having put a stop to Occlumency was very very serious, it made Harry go to the MoM in the first place.
Well I still think JKR meant that to say that we'll still be seeing Snape being horrible to Harry.
And thatnks for that part of the interview, S.E!
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 12:33 pm (#270 of 644)
Yes, he might betray DD on something small, with something that has something to do with Harry. But I still think he'll redeem himself in the end. And as a response to the thread that Weeny Owl and I were talking about, yes, it may be that HARRY does something to save SNAPE'S life, and that maybe that because the way it happens Snape will realize that Harry is different to what he thought he was.
At the same time, maybe Snape IS mean to Harry (and to Neville) because of some reason we don't quite know about...
But going back to that, maybe Harry will save Snape's life, and because of the life-debt thing, Snape will save Harry's. And maybe he'll die doing it. Just a thought of how the things I think most probably happen will happen. Can anybody sort of "perfect" the way I've expressed my thoughts? He, he...
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 12:39 pm (#271 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:40 pm
Rose, it's "hear hear"... You had it right....
I don't think Snape's gonna stab Dd in the back. He's shown a lot of trust in Severus, there must be a reason for that, right?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 4, 2003 12:47 pm (#272 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 1:48 pm
Thanks S.E.! I'm a bit embarassed now,though (because of my mistake, not because you corrected me-it had been on my request,anyway).
I had always assumed that Snape would save Harry's life, but I've thought it through and it will be interesting if Harry saves Snape's life, as Pisceswicca pointed out. But that would also make Snape be angry, because of the whole "life-debt" thing. I doubt he'll be grateful, though.. . Maybe he'll be amazed at what lengths Harry has gone to to save Snape, maybe that's why he'll stop being so awful to Harry.
schoff - Oct 4, 2003 1:05 pm (#273 of 644)
Edited by Oct 4, 2003 2:09 pm
But Snape's already proactively saved Harry's life. He did it in P/SS during the first Quidditch game, and in GoF when he stunned Crouch, Jr. Or do those not count?
For the GoF example, Harry was on the verge of imminent death.
Neville Longbottom - Oct 4, 2003 1:10 pm (#274 of 644)
Snape also played a very important role in saving Harry's life at the end of OOTP.
S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 1:21 pm (#275 of 644)
schoff: and in GoF when he stunned Crouch, Jr.
Do you mean when Crouch Jr was stunned when he was about to attack Harry at the end? That wasn't Snape, it was Dd....
schoff - Oct 4, 2003 1:27 pm (#276 of 644)
Huh, you're right, SE. Only DD had his wand out... (GoF, US, ch35, 679). I always pictured DD, McGonagall, and Snape as doing the spell together, and that's why it was so powerful that it broke the door and threw Crouch across the room...
Hmm...I guess that just leaves Snape helping Harry in P/SS, and Harry wasn't yet at the point of immediately dying, so it might not have acquired life-debt status...
Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2003 1:40 pm (#277 of 644)
Well, in a way, Snape has already betrayed Dumbledore by not continuing the Occlumency lessons. I don't see Snape betraying Dumbledore in a huge way, though. Dumbledore is smart enough and wise enough not to put his trust in someone too much. As he said, he'd forgotten a few things such as how young men think, and that scars can run too deep for the healing, but I doubt if he'd see the end of Occlumency as a betrayal.
Snape has saved Harry, but it could be taken in ways other than a true life-debt. In the first book, even if Harry had fallen off his broom, there's no way of telling if he would have ended up with broken bones or if it could actually have been fatal. The other instances may or may not have saved Harry's life.
Pisceswicca - Oct 4, 2003 5:50 pm (#278 of 644)
Mmm...yeah, maybe Snape WOULD be a little angry if Harry saved his life. But maybe the relationship will have gotten a little "better" by then, I don't know. Maybe that's stretching it a little. I still think, now that I think about it again, that it's Snape that's going to save Harry's life. Aaah, now I'm confused - it could be anyone of them. It IS going to be one of them, though.
And yes, DD IS too smart for anywone to stab him in the back like that. If he trusts Snape it's for a very valid reason.
zixyer - Oct 4, 2003 7:01 pm (#279 of 644)
I think Hermione was more responsible for saving Harry's life than Snape was. I guess you could say she removed all the risk from the situation, but had she not intervened, Quirrel could still have won over Snape and Harry could have died. So I don't think Snape's action in PS/SS count towards fulfilling his life debt.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 4, 2003 9:31 pm (#280 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 10:44 pm
I must repeat here, I have stated it previously on one of the boards, but I think that Snape is the spy that told DD that Voldemort was on the move for the Potters. Somewhere it is stated that at great risk to himself, the spy reported to DD the info just before VM attacked them. Somewhere else it states that Snape was a spy to DD (Sorry that I don't have the exact quotes and source right here, it's very late and very tired). Now that we know about Snape's legilimens and occlumency abilities, I think even more, that Snape was that spy. If Snape had spied for DD and provided that kind of information, that could well explain why DD trusts him so much and why DD is protecting him by having Severus teach at Hogwarts, just like he is protecting Professor Trelawney.
Snape has been on DD's side for quite sometime, certainly since the Potter's murder, but IMP, since sometime before the Potters were killed. However, I don't believe that Snape, like VM knows the content of the prophesy. I think that would help explain why Snape seems bent on getting Harry expelled. It also help explain Snapes snide comments to Harry that he is nothing special.
I love to hate Snape and have perused this thread but haven't posted because there is so much here and Snape is such a complex character. Snape can't be view or understood in a simple the good vs the bad. Like his underpants, Snape has so many shades of grey, I can't wait to see him in book 6.
NOTE: To Gina R. Snape, you're DSMIV analysis of Snape was just wonderful, I've wondered if you could post it here (I have looked for it and haven't found it).
Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 9:52 pm (#281 of 644)
Ummm... I agree with you. But I was just wondering, seeing as it may be earlier and less tiring to find the quotes for a thing like that. As many people used to say here: I reckon it 'holds water'.
Grant the Great - Oct 4, 2003 10:16 pm (#282 of 644)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 11:17 pm
Hehe! "Holds water!" I finally read most of that archived thread. BTW, you all can count me in on the DIGS (if any of you even care still!).
OK, going back to Snape. Have any of you considered what type of boy Snape was. I posted this on the "Bucking Broomstick" thread, but I think it also fits here, so I'm also going to copy it here (wow, that was repetetive in a very repeating repetition!):
I always just thought Snape was trying to mount a broomstick unsuccessfully. I doubt it was outside influence. And, I must say that I have been in a position of being the totally outcast, scrawny kid at that age (I've come a long way, thought I'm still rather thin). If that means anything to anyone, I'll write on on my interpretation of what Snape must have been like as a child. If he was like me--which I think he was--then he was very studious, because it was the only thing he could succeed in to any degree (given, he studied mostly the Dark Arts, but, anyway). Though he always spoke poorly of the popular people (James, for instance), he cried himself to sleep many nights, wishing that he could switch places for just an hour (I still do that sometimes). He would have thus tried to be the jock he knew he couldn't be (sorry, Snape, you're not a quidditch player). He thus failed miserably and the girl he liked laughed at him (Lily?). He thus became even more withdrawn and bitter, hating his father for being abusive (yeah, the parallels are not here anymore) and for not raising him to be like a jock. Anyway, you get the idea. The amazing thing is, though, that he fought James. Most of the people like that that I knew (including me) just preferred to watch at the sidelines, imagining tackling that stupid jock!!! OK, now you all get the idea of what I'm trying to say.
So, yeah . . . and on the matter of Neville that somebody brought up . . . I LOVE your idea! It makes sense! I have done the same thing before (and regretted it, mind you). I look back and see a poor, teased kid. I contribute to his self-degrading, in a sense of justice and divine purpose (yeah, I have had some very diluted moments). It feels like . . . "Yeah, life's tough, but you didn't have it as tough as I did. If you can accept more of this taunting from me, then you will grow into someone that I am now, which I am very happy to be."
And, just so you know, I'm totally over all of the stages presented above. I don't want any of you to think that I'm like Snape, cause I'm probably more like Lupin that anybody.
Madame Librarian - Oct 5, 2003 4:47 am (#283 of 644)
Mrs. Sirius, I'm being dense I suppose, but what is DSMIV? (Also, please read thread down below titled "We are S.C.A.R." It's about abbreviations and acronyms.)
Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Ladybug220 - Oct 5, 2003 8:14 am (#284 of 644)
Edited by Oct 5, 2003 9:14 am
Madame Librarian,
The DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders #4) is the the manual that psychiatrists/psychologists use in their practices because it has the complete listings and symptoms of mental disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder (manic depression), schziohrenia, MPD (multiple personality disorder) etc
Madame Librarian - Oct 5, 2003 8:35 am (#285 of 644)
Aaah...thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 5, 2003 11:22 am (#286 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 12:24 pm
Oh yes I did want to ask you all to please lay low on those tough abreviations! I don't get all of them and it's abit frustrating trying to figure out what means what in order to give certain sentences any sense. Thank you
(just so you know in case you didn't, I'm not a monitor or anything so you don't have to pay attention to me if you don't want to). I was reading your lasts posts, and I really don't have much to say, except that reading them I've thought to myself what a lonely and sad person Snape is. From the looks of it, he's got no one; it doesn't look like he had anything to lose when he became a Death Eater, yet he turned to the good side. There's still hope for the man (I'm saying it for those who think he's not good!).
Pink Arjuna - Oct 5, 2003 11:59 am (#287 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 1:18 pm
I think Snape is a jaded man. There is no doubt of this. Systematic bullying or abuse suggests this. Harry looks like James. Would snape feel the same if the potters had had a girl?? male and female roles play a big part in the books. I doubt Snape loved Lilly as she was a muggle born and therefore he would have little interest in her if his families entrenched ideals were passed on to him.
I believe him to be in a transitional period. He is neither entirely evil or good. He has deep magic conecting him to James so I doubt if he will do Harry in. Perhaps dumbledore used verituserum on him as well as legilimens and not to mention he has known the bloke for years. His whole history will be knowledge on some level for dumbledore. Perhaps the school robes were changed because of snape's upsidedown bullying... the boys wear trousus now... not long dress type robes as they did in the pensieve.... We have little knowledge of the methods used to aquire truth from wizards.
I think Snape will ruin Harrys chances of being an auror. He never takes anyone without an outstanding and to be honest Harry has given snape and excuse to persicute him in this sense as he has never worked hard enough and shouldn't get special treatment. I believe he will cause mayhem on this front in the future books. He may keep Harry alive but ruining his career choice and bullying him is no small act of maliciousness. However we learn about regulus black that he was foolish and thought Voldemort was on the right track. Perhaps his past has him so scared and he did just as his slytherin peers did. he can't have been more than about 20 maximum when he joined voldemort and we know voldemort would have promised whatever anyone wished for themselves to join him.
Perhaps his period as a death eater helped him realise his power as a wizard yet he had no real life experience to know the true nature of life. He had bad experiences but what of love? is he capeable of love? could he even let someone love him? has he loved at all? He is short of aquaintances as he rarely leaves hogwarts and also doesn't socialize with other staff members. However he could have friends we don't know about... He is lonely on an emotional level as he chooses to despise a memory rather than move on and live in the present. The Dark arts could empower him mentally where he always thought he was a falier... who knows... But he succeeded on being in voldemorts inner circle so perhaps this is the one time he has been appreciated for his abilities where he was not overshadowed by others. Perhaps Draco reminds him of himself? Father moulding him into a little idiot... we are a product of our environments as well as the choices we make. Even though Draco is vindictive he is sheltered and perhaps Snape is trying to value him in the only way he knows how to, as Slytherins are always overlooked and hogwarts. We forget though that Draco will have no father at home at least for the next little while even though the big bad will probably break them out.
He could be many different people in one. I don't doubt he'll make Harrys life hell. Even though harry doesn't deserve this treatment he does provoke some level of aggrivation as he gets away with everything. He can't respect the privacy of someones memories and thinks the world revolves around him. Not to mention he'll risk his life for some dung bombs (poa) as he doesn't yet realise sirius is good.
I do believe Snape is more like Harry than Harry is like James. they have been systematically bullied however Harry has become humbled and Snape embittered. From the legilimens class I believe snape has become similar in manner to his father (remember in poa when his face is shoved up next to harrys? and then his mother is in the same position with his father) Also Snape believes controlling emotions is the way to strength, he poorly misunderstands that he needs to except and that no matter how well he can control his emotions they still explode at times as he needs to address them not bury them.
The man needs to be given a chance. He needs to give himself a chance. Most importantly he needs to progress, or for lack of better words grow up.... but we don't know the extent of his past agonies and perhaps he has turned out better than he might have...
As a death eater he is likely to have done something terrible... however surviving sometimes means doing something terrible. Voldemort is ultimately the architect of evil and doing his bidding or dying is no easy choice. Also Snape would have been magically bound to James after the attempted killing by sirius and therefore like pettigrew the Dark lord has someone in Potters debt.
Pisceswicca - Oct 5, 2003 1:06 pm (#288 of 644)
Pink Arjuna and Grant the Great - LOVED your last posts. It's how I see Snape as well, if a brief analysis of his character and personality is what we're talking about. Again, loved your last posts.
Pink Arjuna - Oct 5, 2003 2:58 pm (#289 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 4:16 pm
Oh I am deply interested in old severus!!! I hated him at first but he has long been the most intriquing character in the books. There is something so withdrawn about him that simple thought can not be contemplated when it comes to this character.
Gina R Snape wrote these next two paragraphs, It summarized what I said in about a gazillion and added a little emphasis to my 2 knuts: Thanks Gina! I am not as die hard as you but this sums him up entirely.
------------------------------
The Snape I see is a complex and fascinating man. Snape has the feel of a man who's been around the block a few times and has the scars to show it... but he's not yet reached an age where the tell-tale signs of wisdom, thoughtful reflection and patience start kicking in. He's clearly had a hard life, even if we only know a smattering of details (we can make respectable guesses)...and he's been around long enough to become hardened, cynical and embittered.
Yet there's still those traces of an angry young man: He harbours a lot of rage, resentment and jealousy...and has a nasty, often childish and petty, vindictive streak running through him. There's an underlying hint of an insecure person desperately seeking respect, who's unsure of his mark and his worth in the world and is seemingly disappointed that he hasn't become more than he has.
------------------------------
I also think he is eyes wide shut. You know can't see reason when it stares him in the face. He needed to believe implicitly in sirius's guilt to justify his action... or intended action. We will never know if old padfoot (my other favourite) would have had his face sucked off or not..... if it had been different... it is that 'unsure' to what lengths he'll go to while not being 'evil' that interests me most. Dumbledore is the mans breaks.... maybe he would be on a fast track to hell without old Albus...
Gina R Snape - Oct 5, 2003 7:26 pm (#290 of 644)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 8:31 pm
Pink Arjuna and Mrs. Sirius, thanks for your notice of my posts. I actually reposted (and slightly edited) the above elsewhere on this very thread. To paraphrase Snape Might I suggest...using the search function.
As for my DSM-IV discussion, I shall look for it tomorrow and repost it here, with pleasure.
Ricky, welcome back. In a nutshell, some people still believe Snape to be bad. Some people can now, after OoP, properly appreciate the man the way I believe he ought to be appreciated. Some of us love him more than ever. Some are doubtful, but more intrigued than ever, as he is clearly one of the most complicated characters in the books. We are all dying to find out loads of history about him and what goes on behind that alluring/mysterious/loathsome (as you choose) exterior.
I guess you could say, the more things change...the more they stay the same.
To those pondering why DD trusts Snape, and the whole issue about the prophecy, I would be over the moon if you read my thread "My theory regarding Snape and the prophecy." It is Snape-centric (well, it is MY theory so it'd have to be), but I think holds some water nonetheless.
Gina R Snape "My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophecy" 9/23/03 12:13pm
(Sorry if that doesn't take you to the beginning of the thread. Links are not exactly my speciality).
Now, how am I to catch up on all the other threads without the use of some dark magic of my own?!?!
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 6, 2003 3:50 am (#291 of 644)
Gina, I absolutely love your theory of the prophecy. BRAVO!!! (clapping hands enthusiastically).
Gina R Snape - Oct 6, 2003 8:14 am (#292 of 644)
:blushes: Thanks, darlin'
Ok, by popular request, I am reposting the Psych. Analysis I posted months ago on the EZBoard. Please keep in mind it was in response to others, in the midst of a discussion on Severus' mental health.
Post:
Well, I am not a Psychiatrist. But I am an MSW (Master's in Social Work) and have worked for many years with homeless adults and families in shelters, and also provided therapy to children in foster care. It is of course impossible to come up with a "real" diagnosis of a fictional character when we cannot "observe" his everyday behaviour nor interview him for subjective data. That doesn't mean we can't have fun with this... I apologise in advance for the length of this post.
But I can tell you flat out that Severus does not appear to have a Conduct Disorder (a childhood dx) or the adult equivalent of Antisocial Personality Disorder. He expresses remorse. He expresses sympathy (just not for Harry and co!). He doesn't provoke physical fights (Sirius fans may argue this one). And he *is* able to control his emotions and actions at will. Otherwise he would never listen to Dumbledore's orders, and he would not be any good at Occlumency. He also does not present with mood swings typical of Bipolar disorder. The DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) lists specific criteria for mental health diagnoses (dx), in case anyone is interested. I didn't want to post all the criteria for the various dx suggestions. But I think Disthymic Disorder (your garden variety non-episodic depression) might fit the bill.
"Depressed mood for most of the day, for more days than not, as indicated either by subjective account or observation by others, for at least 2 years. Note: In children and adolescents, mood can be irritable and duration must be at least 1 year."
Presence, while depressed, of two (or more) of the following:
1. poor appetite or overeating (he is very thin)
2. insomnia or hypersomnia (he does prowl the castle at night)
3. low energy or fatigue (we can't know this one)
4. low self-esteem (quite apparent in our little Severus)
5. poor concentration or difficulty making decisions (n/a)
6. feelings of hopelessness (again, we can't know, but I wouldn't be surprised).
If we take into account his assumed abusive history (familial and peers), and I think zapping flies alone in a room sounds pretty depressing besides, we have a very good candidate with this one. Anger and severe sarcasm are often outward manifestations of depression and insecurity. Good call on that one. While the greasy hair comments are debatable, they could be a sign of neglected self-care (hygiene) typical of depression and low self-esteem. Also, social workers look at the person in his/her environment. Severus has plenty of reasons to be depressed! Need I list them all?
He might also have some mild features of an Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. While I would never say full-blown,the tendencies are there. Of the 7 or 8 features in the DSM, I think he seems to present with include:
1. preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost (on an occasional basis he will be rigid about rules and such, but it seems more manipulative than obssessive IMO, so it's highly debatable so I thought I'd throw it in anyway)
2. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
3. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
4. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes (to me he seems particular about his clothes, but is not extravagant. Greying pants may be a reluctance to purchase new ones, but we don't really know how he spends his money)
5. shows rigidity and stubbornness (e.g. insists on being called Sir or Professor)
I would recommend an anti-depressant, self-esteem building exercises (an Order of Merlin would help), therapy, and a LOT of TLC from yours truly.
popkin - Oct 6, 2003 8:29 am (#293 of 644)
Everyone was right. That was a very enlightening post.
Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2003 8:40 am (#294 of 644)
Gina - "I would recommend an anti-depressant, self-esteem building exercises (an Order of Merlin would help), therapy, and a LOT of TLC from yours truly."
That sounds reasonable to me. Either you'd cure him of his existing problem or he'd just have you spend a few months chopping armadillo spleens or something.
I've greatly enjoyed reading your views on Snape. You've obviously put a lot of thought into his motivations and his personality. You've given me some insights that have me waffling sometimes on my opinion of him.
I've often wondered about the Pensieve scene and the graying undies. I don't know what the routine is for laundry at Hogwarts, but if the house elves do the laundry and if Snape's undies aren't white, then if he isn't having his laundry done, it would fit your diagnosis of depression and not caring about personal hygiene.
Snape is a character I just can't quite like but that I can't quite dislike either, but he does have a hypnotic way about him that is intriguing.
Gina R Snape - Oct 7, 2003 9:43 am (#295 of 644)
Thanks Weeny Owl.
On a side note, I think the greying undies are more a sign of poverty. There are only so many times you can wash a pair of underpants before they are not white anymore. Especially if you mix them in with black robes...
Weeny Owl - Oct 7, 2003 2:41 pm (#296 of 644)
Gina:
Poverty is an obvious explanation that just zoomed right over my head; another superb observation, I must say. It might explain even more about some of his bitterness. Ron certainly has difficulties with his family's lack of money, but he seems to have a loving family structure that, from that one scene during Occlumency, Snape seems to have lacked.
Denise P. - Oct 7, 2003 6:23 pm (#297 of 644)
Rather than a sign of poverty, I took it as a sign that Severus did his own laundry (indicating noninvolvement by a parent..neglect if you will) and didn't know that you wash whites seperate from other colors.
Pisceswicca - Oct 7, 2003 7:07 pm (#298 of 644)
Gina R. Snape - I absolutely LOVED your theory of Snape regarding the Prophecy. Simple yet so brilliant and obvious! The ONLY thing that's on my mind is - being the evil "being" that he is, why on EARTH would Voldie care about Snape's life-debt and whether it's Snape's duty to fulfill it? He's a DE, for crying out loud! There should be no room for owing anybody anything! Maybe there's something that I'm missing out on here, and maybe even the most evil of them all absolutely MUST fulfill such a debt, even agains one's own will, but I don't recall that (mmm, I'm not sure now). But again, it's Voldemort, why should he care? He has killed and tortured in cold blood. He drank UNICORN'S blood. He's CURSED because of that. Why should he care about a life-debt that one of his DE's has?
And another thing. I STILL think there's more Snape did other than warn DD about Voldy's plans and save the Potter's so that he could trust him like he does. Yes, it WAS at great risk that he did what he did, and he DID try and save the Potters' lives, but he could've been doing that just to APPEAR to be on DD's side, and LET DD think that he's on his side and really still be on Voldy's side. Now, I love Snape's character, but I think that if DD trusts Snape the way that he does there must have been something ELSE that he did, something even MORE important than telling DD about Voldy's plans to kill the Potters. And if I were DD, I'd be thinking to myself - how does Snape know this, and what is the reason Voldy would have to kill the Potters? Yes, Lordy killed people at randomly and at will for merely not being on his side, but for Snape to warn DD about the POTTERS in particular? There MUST be a reason for this. That would lead DD to question Snape about his motives. OH, YES! Snape's life debt to James - I forgot!!! But still, if I were DD, and knowing how wise and astute he is, I wouldn't think that the life-debt was all there was to it.
And if it really were Snape that told DD about the Prophecy, wouldn't that mean that HARRY owes him a life-debt now? Would him having been a baby apply anyway? What can anybody tell me about this?
Now, like I said, I LOVED YOUR POST, Gina R. Snape, but if it is so, those are the questions and minor doubts, if you will, that I have. I know my thoughts are a little jumbled up and rash, probably. Does anyone have anything to say about all this? Replies very, very, very welcome! :-D
Pisceswicca - Oct 7, 2003 7:12 pm (#299 of 644)
Ok, another thing, going back to what I JUST posted - ok, so let's say that DD thinks that Snape is warning about Voldy's plans for the Potters because he's fulfilling a life-debt, and he's "switching" sides, so he says. That still doesn't prove that he's not still a DE? Ok, so he fulfills a life-debt because he HAS to, not because he wants to. And he SAYS he's turning to DD. So what? That really doesn't prove anything.
Of course, this is all assuming we want to question Snape's credibility. I'm trying to put myself in DD's position at the time, or ANYBODY'S for that matter, if Snape had come to them. Anybody?
S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2003 9:18 pm (#300 of 644)
Firstly, Pink Arjuna: Perhaps the school robes were changed because of snape's upsidedown bullying... the boys wear trousus now... not long dress type robes as they did in the pensieve....
Um, that's the movie, not the books. As far as I can tell, except for a few instances where robes are thrown on over muggle clothes, they do still wear those types of robes....
Secondly, Gina, as always, I love your insight into Severus's psyche. I, like Denise, saw the greying undies as lack of parental involvement. I saw the fact that they were grey pointing to the fact that they were old which to me says that his parents didn't buy new clothes, either because they were poor or because they simply didn't spend much money on their child.
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Last edited by Mona on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:44 am; edited 5 times in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 61
Location : India
Posts 301 to 350
Mona Sat May 21, 2011 12:48 am
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 8, 2003 3:27 am (#301 of 644)
I was a bit unfair when I read about the grey undies, I assumed it was lack of personal hygiene and didn't think about him being poor or his parents not caring for him; even if he was the cleanest person in the world, if he didn't have parents to buy him clothes it's not his fault at all that he's got them dirty all the time (even if the same undies are washed every day, they start graying just the same, as Gina pointed out in post #295).
The thing is, now that he's an adult and that he gets paid for his job, he still doesn't wash his hair! Which makes me think that he isn't insistent at all when it comes to personal hygiene.Even if his parents were like that and Snape was brought up that way, there must have come a time when Snape had the mental capacity to know that keeping yourself clean is up to you, not to others (just like there comes a time when we learn right from wrong).
Just imagine how soft,shiny and silky his hair must be when washed!
Pisceswicca (hi crissy! :X): you mention something about DD knowing whether or not Snape is good. I've had a thought about it and I hope I explain myself well.
Imagine two people, one "normal", the other a very good occlumens (by normal I mean that he's not an occlumens, I just didn't know how to put it). The occlumens would know when the other was lying. But what if you get two occlumenses (is that the plural for occlumens???), like DD and Snape. Could they tell when the other was bad or good? Or is it that they both block their minds so that when one tries to "read" his fellow occlumens's mind(I know it's not actually "reading" and if Snape were real and saw this he'd get angry with me because he tells Harry that the mind isn't a book, and I know that someone else here -can't remember who- told us all exactly the difference between an occlumens and a legi--- (can't remember the name, oops).
I know this sounds jumbled and I haven't explained myself as well as I would have like to, I hope you've understood the message. What I want to know is, if they're both occlumenses (??), could one be 100% sure that the other was good (like DD is 100% sure that Snape is good)?
Gina R Snape - Oct 8, 2003 9:03 am (#302 of 644)
Hi again.
I like the idea of further lack of parental involvement in Snape's childhood. I'm toying with writing a young Snape fic (when I finish my current fanfic [sorry, the current one is not an appropriate story for this forum]), and this idea fits in well.
I too wondered about the whole Occlumency/Legilimency thing. But I suspect either Dumbledore is more powerful enough than Snape to know, or else has some other tool(s) at his disposal. And I do agree that Snape has probably done some other specific acts to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. But in GoF, Dumbledore points out to Harry that Voldemort would not want a death eater in his service with a life debt to Harry. So, there must be some magical overriding thing that happens if you try to not fulfill your life debt.
Also, I don't think Harry would owe a life debt to Snape at this point, if Snape was trying to fulfill his life debt to the Potters. But wouldn't it be a kick of we did find that out? These two would spend an eternity running life debt rings around each other!
S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2003 12:29 pm (#303 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 1:31 pm
Imagine two people, one "normal", the other a very good occlumens (by normal I mean that he's not an occlumens, I just didn't know how to put it). The occlumens would know when the other was lying. But what if you get two occlumenses (is that the plural for occlumens???), like DD and Snape. Could they tell when the other was bad or good? Or is it that they both block their minds so that when one tries to "read" his fellow occlumens's mind(I know it's not actually "reading" and if Snape were real and saw this he'd get angry with me because he tells Harry that the mind isn't a book, and I know that someone else here -can't remember who- told us all exactly the difference between an occlumens and a legi--- (can't remember the name, oops).
Firstly, keep in mind that Snape was said to be an excellant Occulemens, which means he specializes in blocking others from reading his thoughts, memories, emotions... Dumbledore is said to be an excellent Lemens, which means he specializes in breaking into others minds.... I think that Dumbledore could penetrate Snape's mind as long as he's a better lemens than Snape is an occulemens.....
Secondly, I think Dumbledore is also a very good judge of people and characters, i.e. I think he knows other, more subtle, ways of judging whether someone is lieing to him or not.....
popkin - Oct 8, 2003 1:07 pm (#304 of 644)
Also, Harry, a relatively young and untrained wizard was able to break into Snape's thoughts and see things that Snape would almost certainly rather he did not. If Harry can do it, certainly Dumbledore can.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 8, 2003 2:21 pm (#305 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 3:21 pm
DD is a good Lemens? Where does it say that? I'm not saying you're making it up, I just want to know where it's written because I hadn't noticed. I thought DD was an occlumens all along.
Weeny Owl - Oct 8, 2003 2:31 pm (#306 of 644)
It's in chapter thirty-seven, "The Lost Prophecy," when Dumbledore is telling Harry about Kreacher. Dumbledore said he was a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens to know when he was being lied to.
Pisceswicca - Oct 8, 2003 4:09 pm (#307 of 644)
Ok, let me see if I can get my thoughts straight and easy to understand (I know that my ideas can be all jumbled up). So Snape is an excellent Occlumens and DD is an excellent Lemens. Assuming Snape is a better Occlumens than DD is an Lemens, than he can "block" his mind and not let DD see that he is actually a DE. Therefore DD thinks he really has switched. That still can't be proof enough to DD that Snape is good. He knows he's a skilled Occlumens, so he really wouldn't know, right? And the fact that he's as wise as he is and that he's a good judge of character because of "other reasons" -DD IS still human. He said so himself. He's not perfect.
And assuming that DD is a better Lemens than Snape an Occlumens and that he CAN "break" into Snape's mind - wouldn't that be too simple of an explanation of him knowing that Snape DID in fact, switch? Why would it be such a problem for him to tell Harry if that really is the reason why he knows he can trust Snape? Because there's something else, that's why. Him being able to read Snape's thoughts and therefor know he's good is too easy. It can't be that. And Harry keeps questioning DD's reasons for trusting Snape. Wouldn't DD even give him THAT reason, even to just make Harry stop asking him so much? You know, "keep him quiet" about it? Because him being a good Lemens and being able to "read" Snape is NOT the reason why he trusts Snape. Like I said, there's something else.
So them being great Occlumens and Lemens doesn't really make that much of a difference. DD doesn't really have proof that Snape is good, and on the other hand, THAT being the proof - would be way too simple. It would make things and reasons too easy.
So that brings me to the reason having to be something else, like I keep saying over and over again like a royal pain in the you-know-what.
Anybody...?
Pisceswicca - Oct 8, 2003 4:34 pm (#308 of 644)
You know, this is practically the only section I post in! I'm obsessed with Snape!
I have to start posting elswhere as well...hahahaha.... :-D
Gina R Snape - Oct 8, 2003 4:56 pm (#309 of 644)
Nah, join the club Pisceswicca.
I think Harry was able to see into Snape's memories because Snape was totally thrown off guard and as such not prepared. Don't forget, the force of Harry pushing Snape out of his mind caused Snape to drop his wand and I believe lose his balance. So, Harry had a very short window of "opportunity" before Snape was able to block him out again. Snape may have put some memories in the Pensieve "just in case" but I do think he never expected that it would actually happen.
Also, it's Legilimens, not Lemens. Unless you want to turn HP characters into a misspelled fruit.
zixyer - Oct 8, 2003 6:27 pm (#310 of 644)
Thanks Gina, I was just wondering where they got that word "Lemens". I just searched through OotP and it ain't in there. You're right, the proper word is "Legilimens", both for the incantation and for a person who is skilled in Legilimency.
LilyP - Oct 8, 2003 10:15 pm (#311 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 11:17 pm
Ok, I just had a brain storm. Remember in OotP when Hermione secretly put a spell on the paper all the members of the DA signed that would let everyone know who the traitor was. Well, maybe Dumbledore has done something similar with Severus (and a few of the other questionable characters like Dung). Dumbledore knows Snape hasn't betrayed him yet, because the sign (whatever that may be) has not shown up on Snape's forehead. So all the occlumency and legilimency is good, but the final answer is on Snape.
As for the Occlumens vs Legilimens, I then begin to wonder what effect the pensieve has in all this. When you remove a memory, the occlumens doesn't have access to it. I always assumed that was one of the reasons why Snape had one - to remove memories he doesn't want to risk Voldemort seeing.
Madam Pince - Oct 8, 2003 10:22 pm (#312 of 644)
I agree with Pisceswicca -- there is some reason other than legilimency that assures Dumbledore that he can trust Snape. That would be just too boring. I feel sure it is something that Snape did in the past, that we just haven't found out about yet. Can't wait!
A little off-topic, but along the same lines...same thing about why Dumbledore knows he can "...trust Hagrid with my life." Wonder what that circumstance was? I just don't think it's legilimency for either situation -- it's something specific that the person has done that assures DD of their loyalty.
popkin - Oct 9, 2003 12:21 am (#313 of 644)
LilyP, that's a great idea. Things like that paper have a way of turning up again, don't they? I bet Dumbledore has got a way of knowing for certain that he can trust Snape, and if the trust is ever broken.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 5:36 am (#314 of 644)
LilyP. I think your idea about Snape putting some of his memories in the pensieve, such as where the OoP headquarters are when he goes to Voldy is an excellent idea. He doesn't have to lie and say he doesn't know, because he doesn't...the memories are in the pensieve.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 5:53 am (#315 of 644)
Fawkesy Lady-- Uh oh, does that mean that if you put memories in the pensieve, you have no recollection of them yourself? Oh dear, this gets tricky, doesn't it? DD and Snape both seemed to know instantly what Harry was "seeing" in their respective pensieves. Help, everyone!
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 6:28 am (#316 of 644)
If DD and Snape remembered the memories in the pensieve, what is the point of taking the memories out of your head then? Perhaps when Snape caught Harry with his head in the pensieve, he know Harry was looking at the memories, but didn't know which until he put them back into his head.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 6:33 am (#317 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 7:34 am
Or maybe when he grabbed Harry by the neck, he glanced over the rim of the pensieve. When I get a chance, I'll re-read the scenes where Harry is looking into the pensieves.
Another tricky question, even if you can't remember specifics about what's in your pensieve, do you remember that you've placed memories in one? If so (and, how would you know to retrieve them if not), aren't you vulnerable to V. or the DEs to give up the information of where your pensieve is or even that you've used one? Oy.
Ciao. Barb
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 6:58 am (#318 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 7:59 am
I think you'd remember that you'd parked something in the Pensieve, you just wouldn't remember what it was. However, I suspect that a good Legilimens would have a chance of snatching that recollection out of your skull, at which point they might be curious about why you'd been parking memories someplace, even if they didn't know what the memory was. However, they would have to sort through everything else in your head to find the memory of using the Pensieve, which is probably harder if you aren't red-flagging that recollection by worrying about it. Of course, with Snape, a Legilimens would have to search through all the back issues of Potions Quarterly, 1000 magical plants and fungi, plus all the other potions-related and Dark-arts related stuff he's memorized, plus every Quidditch game he's ever seen, every argument he's ever lost at a faculty meeting, plus all the grades he's given in 14 years of teaching, as well as the text of every letter of recommendation he's ever written.
I find it interesting that Snape prefers supressing all emotion connected with his memories [which isn't a complete success, as he's unable to supress the anger, even if he's deprived himself of all other feelings]. I would think it would be much more helpful to concentrate all your fear and anxiety into a fairly trivial item, thus red-flagging that one, over all others. Imagine the Dork Lard's frustration at following up a promising hot lead of fear, to find your concern about getting caught up on the ironing, or whether you'd mislaid a library book, or put out the fire before you left the house.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 7:27 am (#319 of 644)
fidelio, I like your suggestion of hiding an important memory buried in a bunch of trivial ones (though I do not --ahem-- consider a lost library book trivial). It's sort of the same idea as reacting to a boggart with something silly that makes you laugh.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 7:49 am (#320 of 644)
fidelio,I agree with Mdm Librarian about your more detailed ideas of the pensieve. Didn't DD say something about the amount of memories he has and keeping them in the pensieve. That would mean that he knows he has memories there, but not necessarily what they were. I think that Snape has had to hold back on so many thoughts and feelings his whole life, that it comes as a second nature. However, he doesn't seem to have difficulty showing his feelings towards Harry.
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 8:10 am (#321 of 644)
Well, he needs some sort of outlet, I guess. But what are the feelings he shows towards Harry? Think about it.
Do we, in fact, see Severus Snape ever display joy in anything other than triumph over an adversary? Simple contentment? Affection? Kindly concern? Amusement over anything except someone's discomfiture or humiliation? The poor twisted slob has taken everything resembling a normal human emotion that he might have and either suppressed it, twisted it in an effort to protect himself [whether from Voldemort's prying, or a childhood fear of exploitation--dating to before he ever made it to Hogwarts, I suspect], or either uprooted it or had it uprooted for him.
There's a lot of rage and pain left, and this seems to be behind every display of feeling we see from him.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 8:21 am (#322 of 644)
That still doesn't clear up the issue of your enemies knowing you've used a pensieve to hold important information. Maybe you just don't do that if you're smart. You use the pensieve for non-essential ones, keep the critical ones in your head and hope your occlumency skill is in top form.
OK, I can live with that.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 8:28 am (#323 of 644)
Mdm., good point. Obviously DD has some important memories in his pensieve (the Wizengamot's decision on the DE). I think perhaps temporarily removing important memories is ok, but better to keep them in your head?
fidelio, you said you don't remember Snape showing any joy. In PoA wasn't he excited (not exactly the word I was looking for but just go with it) when he thought he might get Order of Merlin 1st Class for catching Sirius? When Sirius escapes, of course we see angry Severus again.
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 8:34 am (#324 of 644)
They might be able to figure out you've put something into a pensieve, if they can locate the memory of putting something in a pensieve.
If you seem anxious about this, they are likely to suspect what you put in there matters a lot to you.
A skilled occlumens might be able to conceal the memory of using the pensieve in the first place, or make it seem like a trivial matter in the second. However, Snape was using his as temporary storage for things he apparently didn't want Harry to see. DD, however, was using his to sort and classify his thoughts about a specific problem, by gathering them together in one place where he could sort though and review them, looking for connections and patterns. Therefore, there are more reasons for using them than as a temporary memory bank, so the fact of having used one is not immediately a give-away that you're hiding one or more betraying memories. Presumably, you could have used it to gather together all you recollections of a person, either for writing a eulogy for their funeral--or to figure out, based on past behavior, what they'd be likely to do in a given situation--or even if you could spot betraying details they were selling you out. You could assemble everything you know about the uses of wild onions in potions, or all the plays by beaters [or chasers, keepers, or seekers] in all the Quidditch games you'd ever seen, to figure out future strategies--or to write about playing a certain position.
I suspect that the more you use a pensieve for purposes other than banking memories the easier it becomes to convince a Legilimens that a suspicious use is just another run-of-the-mill occurence. After all, it would be your anxiety over the use of the pensieve that would tip them off that there was something important there--remember how Snape described a Legilimens using your emotions to lead them to important things?
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 8:41 am (#325 of 644)
fidelio, I never thought of other uses for the pensieve. Very good (applauds). I suppose we should get back on topic - Severus, before we get yelled at.
Gina R Snape - Oct 9, 2003 9:14 am (#326 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 10:17 am
fidelio strikes again!
I about cracked up at the idea of Voldemort looting through Snape's mind and coming up with student recommendations and faculty meetings and such.
But, and I believe this has been suggested before, he would likely come up with memories of Snape being mean to Neville and Harry, and his apparent dislike of them. This, of course, would further solidify Voldemort's belief in Snape being on the side of the DEs.
...which brings me to another thought... The legilimency chapters are so fascinating to me because I can see so many dynamics going on at once both plainly and between-the-lines:
Snape's general distaste for Potter.
Snape feeling resentful about this assignment.
Snape enjoying torturing Potter a little bit and taking pot shots at him verbally.
Snape deliberately choosing his words so as not to reveal anything Dumbledore wants not revealed.
Snape deliberately choosing his words so that if Voldemort sees this memory he will not be suspicious.
Snape getting to know Potter a little better (eg. asking about the memory of the dogs).
Snape on a mission to get information for Dumbledore on what Potter has seen in his dreams. Etc.
JKR was so ingenious, that these chapters are among my faves even apart from the fact that they are about Severus.
Oh, and of course we could also spend months discussing what it means when he runs his finger over his lips while thinking. Interesting gesture.
popkin - Oct 9, 2003 10:05 am (#327 of 644)
Edited by Oct 9, 2003 11:08 am
About Snape's emotions, I think they seem to run especially deep within him. He has enormous pride about Slitherin House and its accomplishments, his abilities as a Potions Master, his abilities in general. He also seems to reserve a special kind of pride for Draco, and appears to consider himself Draco's mentor. He is certainly emotional about the fact that Dumbledore trusts him. I'm not sure exactly what the emotion is - definitely defensiveness, but also loyalty? pride? something more?
Anyway, Snape does take pleasure in certain things besides victory over perceived enemies. He seems to take a very special pleasure in those things which require intricate precision - like potions. He enjoys activities which require intense patience.
This is the one quality in Snape that I find most likely to make it possible for him to be a terrible traitor to Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. I can see him waiting very patiently, taking pride in every tiny step, attending to each little detail, setting up the dominos one by one until they are all in place. Then, after years or even decades have passed, when his task is completed, he taps the last domino and watches as the rest fall into place. In a flash, he steps forward and takes everything - from Dumbledore, from Lucius, from Voldemort - and realizes his ambition - a new empire with the patient Potions Master at its head.
Fortunately for the good guys, he'll have underestimated his opponent - Harry Potter - and his plan will fail.
Pam Galloway - Oct 9, 2003 12:13 pm (#328 of 644)
Snape absolutely FASCINATES me...Clearly, some of you as well...I've these questions:
In "Snape's Worst Memory", while humiliating and tormenting Severus, James replies to Lily..."It's more the fact that he exists, you know what I mean?"
Probably just a throw away line...but there are 4 characters, each specified as having jet black hair. Harry, James, Severus and Tom Riddle...(I think Sirius may have "black" as well, but definitely "dark".)
Since we know almost nothing about James' family, and we do know that Severus had an unpleasant home life as a child...could there be a connection? Anyone have relatives they would rather not recognize?(but who has time to spend all day exploring the possibilities???)
I like the "Severus loved Lily" theme...however, he does call her a "Mudblood" when she comes to his aid. But, those full of hurt are often hurtful. If he was enamoured with Lily, his pain of humiliation and disgust at that moment would have been almost consuming.
Also, I found the "Persues" anagram interesting...has anyone any thoughts on his name being "Sever Us"?
One last thing for now...if Severus is spying on Voldemort, couldn't he be using Polyjuice? Of course, he'd only have an hour...
Dunja - Oct 10, 2003 12:06 am (#329 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 1:07 am
Did you know what "severus" means? It means strict, it's a Latin adjective and it's fully form is severus, severa, severum (masculinum, femininum, neutrum). I'm not sure if anybody said this already.
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 4:19 am (#330 of 644)
Cleo, we have discussed this topic numerous times on various threads in the Forum. I just tried using the "search" function with keyword "character names meanings," and got lots of hits. There is no one thread that covers it all because sometimes it has come up under the individual character's thread. We have talked about how JKR sometimes plans in both the meaning and pronounciation of the name (e.g., Sirius=serious).
There are also wonderful definitions given in the Lexicon itself. Check it out, why not?
So, the fact that "Severus" does not mean "sever us" may not matter in the end. What we hear in our mind's...um...ear, just adds to the complexity of the character and may turn out to actually be a valid clue.
Ciao. Barb
Sly Girl - Oct 10, 2003 4:27 am (#331 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 5:29 am
Actually, Barb.. there is a thread dedicated to the name meanings..
it's located here: Lucky Charmzz "Is there more to the meaning of character names?" 8/27/03 1:47pm
EDIT: It'll probably be condensed and edited to be kept for later viewing and added to.
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 4:36 am (#332 of 644)
Sly Girl, I found that one, too, but I know there was more so I suggested the search function. I scanned that one and didn't see the comments pertaining to just what Cleo was talking about so I figured they must have come up somewhere else.
Aaaiiii! The Forum is going to need its own Lexicon just to keep our own good ideas straight!!
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 10, 2003 6:48 am (#333 of 644)
The meanings for Sirius and Severus are so close, I wonder if there is a connection, brothers, cousins, twins raised apart? I am sure that has also been discussed in other threads.
Popkin, I really like your thoughts on Snape's patience, especially regarding taking everything from Lucius.
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 7:19 am (#334 of 644)
Thanks, Fawkesy Lady. I would really like to like Snape, but I'm afraid JKR is setting us up for a big disappointment in his regard. I'm afraid Sirius was speaking very truthfully when he said no one ever leaves the Dark Lord's service - they either serve 'til their death, or die trying to leave (paraphrased).
Other than Snape, are there any Death Eaters who were successful in turning away from Lord Voldemort's service?
Sinister Kittens - Oct 10, 2003 7:31 am (#335 of 644)
popkin - I can't think of any that tried it and survived... Very good question!
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 7:34 am (#336 of 644)
Is Regulus Black a possible survivor? There are some telling hints about him with the Stubby Boardman business. That whole thing is very confusing. Now this really is on the wrong thread. Moderators, if it's worth pursuing the question popkin raised, should it be moved?
Ciao. Barb
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 7:40 am (#337 of 644)
Edited by Oct 10, 2003 8:45 am
I see there is a new thread called "Death Eaters". I'll post my comment there.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 10, 2003 9:48 am (#338 of 644)
What about Karkaroff? Ican't remember what happened to him.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 10, 2003 3:00 pm (#339 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 4:02 pm
Sorry to talk to switch topic, but I've gone to my town for the weekend, I didnt' think there'd be so many posts when I got back... actually it's more of a "going back to this..". I've been gone for two days, I can imagine poor Tim when he gets back from his holiday..
About the reason why you put thoughts into your pensive, I think it has something to do with having to remember every single detail,etc. When you put a thought into your pensive it remains intact; that is, if you forget every detail of a memory, you can just look at it in your pensive. DD said something about your mind being too full to remember everything, I think.
Also, is it my imagination, (or maybe it was a dream or something!), but did I read somewhere in OoP that Snape had borrowed the pensive from DD? (I can imagine some of you saying " WHAT is this girl talking about??!"), it was just something that popped into my mind. I'm not sure where I read it, if I read it at all... .
Oh, I didn't know where to post this but what does "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" mean? I know Draco is "dragon" in latin; "dormiens" is sleep or something, and "nunquam" is never. But what does everything together mean?
Please, comments on that and on the pensive belonging to DD... .
PS: Sly Girl, I looove your display pic!
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 3:02 pm (#340 of 644)
The quote means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" which is the Hogwarts motto.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 10, 2003 3:12 pm (#341 of 644)
Interesting!! Thanks Barb.
Ok now any thoughts on the pensive Snape was using being DD's?
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 3:22 pm (#342 of 644)
The pensive was borrowed from Dumbledore. Snape used it for hiding certain private thoughts during occlumens lessons. He might also have been using it to hide thoughts from Lord Voldemort - but that is just speculation.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 3:47 pm (#343 of 644)
No, Harry thinks that it's Dumbledore's Pensieve. But we don't know for sure.
I think a lot of people missed this discussion on the EZBoard. But, there was a huge debate about it. I think it doesn't matter if it's DD's or not. I think it's reusable like a cup or a bowl. No one else would (could?) use it so long as someone else's thoughts are in it. So, in effect, you "clean it out" before borrowing it out.
Pisceswicca - Oct 10, 2003 8:42 pm (#344 of 644)
I don't know about the Pensieve being "reusable" or not. I don't think so...maybe you can put a special kind of "code" or spell on it so as to "block" it from other people...perhaps? but everyone would have to have their own spell or "password", if you will - not one spell would be the same. I don't know... It would'nt make sense that the Pensieve be "reusable" like a cup or bowl. DD said that he stored thoughts there so that he could go back to them if necessary. And we saw that he had IMPORTANT thoughts there that Harry was able to access about the trials of the DE's and of Crouch's son and all that. Those all seemed too important for DD to have "cleaned them out" so that Snape could use them.
And another thing. There's not too much detail on how the Pensieve works in the first place. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall it mentioning it anywhere that once you put your thought in the Pensieve, you don't have a recollection of it. I mean, if you can access certain thoughts at will, you'd have to remember which ones they were, right? DD said that sometimes too many thoughts can be overbearing - that when you have so many things to remember it's difficult to keep track of everthing. So you don't have to make an EFFORT to remember details of recollections. You know what they are, you remember them, but sometimes you have to think too hard on the DETAILS. You have to put effort in knowing the EXACT details. So, in that case, you access the Pensieve to remember the exact, exact way things happened.
And another thing - I love the way fidelio describes possible purposes for the Pensieve. And if I'm not wrong, that is vaguely how DD described the Pensieve. Bravo to fidelio! That was great.
And I like how it was put that Snape does and says things in a way so that if Voldy DOES access his thoughts off-guard, his actions and words are so ambiguous that he'd not really have an exact way of knowing that he was betraying him.
About Harry seeing Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve? I don't know what to think....it DOES seem that Snape put them in there temporarily so that Harry wouldn't have access to his thoughts. But than again that would contradict to what I just said about how the Pensieve works, right? It's almost logical that Snape put his thoughts in there just because of that. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Well, I'm already a little jumbled up...help, anywone?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 11, 2003 10:49 am (#345 of 644)
Hey, that's true, I hadn't thought of that (of Snape putting those memories in his pensive so that Harry wouldnt' be able to access them). I think it's tricky and unfair, why should Snape have access to Harry's private memories (him and Cho,for instance) when he doesn't allow Harry do the same thing? A sign of his childish behaviour, maybe?
Pisceswicca; yes, I see what you mean by that contradiction. But I think it's the whole detail thing; but either way, even if you do put it in your pensive that doesn't mean you forget about it, and what stays in your memory still preserves it's essence. This would mean that Voldie could see Snape talking to DD in the OP headquarters, but not in detail. If the Pensive works that way, then Snape isn't using it to hide his thoughts from Voldie or any DE for that matter. This would also mean that he wasn't using the Pensive during Occlumency to hide his thoughts from Harry.
And one thing, in GoF Harry got pulled out of the pensive by DD; in OoP, it was Snape who helped Harry up. Is there a way to get out of the Pensive on your own?
Gina R Snape - Oct 11, 2003 1:38 pm (#346 of 644)
Hee. Rose, I wouldn't say Snape exactly "helped" Harry out so much as forcibly removed him.
But I've wondered that myself, about getting out. How many people read that chapter and yelled at the book "Harry! Are you crazy?! Get out before Snape comes back!!!" But perhaps Harry doesn't know how to get out.
Pisceswicca - Oct 11, 2003 5:02 pm (#347 of 644)
I guess Harry WOULDN'T be in some sort of life-debt to Snape, because it was actually his mother who risked her life to save him. But if Snape was in fact the one who told DD about the attack against the Potters, he therefore tried to save the lives of them ALL, right? I guess it depends on the way you look at it. It could either be that way, or it was just James. Whatever...
I've also wondered how you can get out of the Pensieve on your own. When Harry was in there I practically tore my hair out, knowing Snape was going to come into the room any second! Of course we KNEW Snape was going to catch him that moment, there was no question about it.
See you guys later! :-D
Gina R Snape - Oct 11, 2003 8:00 pm (#348 of 644)
Yeah. But I noticed JKR had a way of writing so that we were sucked in right along with Harry, and just when we forgot all about being in a Pensieve :BAM: that's when Snape came back.
Pisceswicca - Oct 12, 2003 8:39 am (#349 of 644)
Well, as far as we know, Karkaroff is still at large, isn't he? We don't know where he is right now. I DO suspect we haven't heard the last from him, though...Rowling isn't just going to have it like thatf. He's coming back and I suspect we're going to see a whole lot of things happening where he's involved. Either he's still running away from Voldy or he's still with him and pretending to be good. But that defenitely was NOT the last we heard from him.
And about what Sirius said about nobody leaving Voldy's side, or that they die trying, I don't know.... I think most of the ones that are saying so are on to something when we talk about Snape being the spy on Voldy while still appearing to him a DE. I think there's much MORE to it, details and such, and just pieces we haven't figured out yet that will sort of explain it all better to us, but I think we're defenitely on to something on that thread.
Now, does anywone think that Snape will have a "moment of weakness" at some point and do something to momentarily betray DD? Just a thought. I don't know whether to go along that train of thought, but I'm sure a few people have thought it, nevertheless. Maybe Voldy will promise Snape something no one has EVER promised him and Snape will be on the brink of "Good" and "Evil"?
Then again, maybe it's not likely because it's like history would be repeating itself and then DD REALLY would never trust Snape ever again. Besides, Snape ALREADY did something to prove himself to DD. Just a thought going on in my head in the name of all those who still don't entirely don't like and trust Snape...
Any other thoughts on ANYTHING regarding Snape? Is there anything we haven't gone over?
Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2003 10:05 am (#350 of 644)
I'm not sure Snape will have a moment of weakness, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's being loyal to Dumbledore because he truly wants Voldie gone only so he can become the next powerful dark wizard.
If Voldie and the current Death Eaters are conquered and Snape lies low for a few years, he could have his own Death Eaters from Slytherin that he's personally trained. They're already used to obeying their Head of House, after all, and being in Slytherin makes them ambitious. I could see Draco becoming to Snape what Lucius is to Voldie.
I don't completely and totally believe that will happen, but I just cannot trust Snape or his motives regardless of whether or not Dumbledore trusts him.
I was a bit unfair when I read about the grey undies, I assumed it was lack of personal hygiene and didn't think about him being poor or his parents not caring for him; even if he was the cleanest person in the world, if he didn't have parents to buy him clothes it's not his fault at all that he's got them dirty all the time (even if the same undies are washed every day, they start graying just the same, as Gina pointed out in post #295).
The thing is, now that he's an adult and that he gets paid for his job, he still doesn't wash his hair! Which makes me think that he isn't insistent at all when it comes to personal hygiene.Even if his parents were like that and Snape was brought up that way, there must have come a time when Snape had the mental capacity to know that keeping yourself clean is up to you, not to others (just like there comes a time when we learn right from wrong).
Just imagine how soft,shiny and silky his hair must be when washed!
Pisceswicca (hi crissy! :X): you mention something about DD knowing whether or not Snape is good. I've had a thought about it and I hope I explain myself well.
Imagine two people, one "normal", the other a very good occlumens (by normal I mean that he's not an occlumens, I just didn't know how to put it). The occlumens would know when the other was lying. But what if you get two occlumenses (is that the plural for occlumens???), like DD and Snape. Could they tell when the other was bad or good? Or is it that they both block their minds so that when one tries to "read" his fellow occlumens's mind(I know it's not actually "reading" and if Snape were real and saw this he'd get angry with me because he tells Harry that the mind isn't a book, and I know that someone else here -can't remember who- told us all exactly the difference between an occlumens and a legi--- (can't remember the name, oops).
I know this sounds jumbled and I haven't explained myself as well as I would have like to, I hope you've understood the message. What I want to know is, if they're both occlumenses (??), could one be 100% sure that the other was good (like DD is 100% sure that Snape is good)?
Gina R Snape - Oct 8, 2003 9:03 am (#302 of 644)
Hi again.
I like the idea of further lack of parental involvement in Snape's childhood. I'm toying with writing a young Snape fic (when I finish my current fanfic [sorry, the current one is not an appropriate story for this forum]), and this idea fits in well.
I too wondered about the whole Occlumency/Legilimency thing. But I suspect either Dumbledore is more powerful enough than Snape to know, or else has some other tool(s) at his disposal. And I do agree that Snape has probably done some other specific acts to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. But in GoF, Dumbledore points out to Harry that Voldemort would not want a death eater in his service with a life debt to Harry. So, there must be some magical overriding thing that happens if you try to not fulfill your life debt.
Also, I don't think Harry would owe a life debt to Snape at this point, if Snape was trying to fulfill his life debt to the Potters. But wouldn't it be a kick of we did find that out? These two would spend an eternity running life debt rings around each other!
S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2003 12:29 pm (#303 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 1:31 pm
Imagine two people, one "normal", the other a very good occlumens (by normal I mean that he's not an occlumens, I just didn't know how to put it). The occlumens would know when the other was lying. But what if you get two occlumenses (is that the plural for occlumens???), like DD and Snape. Could they tell when the other was bad or good? Or is it that they both block their minds so that when one tries to "read" his fellow occlumens's mind(I know it's not actually "reading" and if Snape were real and saw this he'd get angry with me because he tells Harry that the mind isn't a book, and I know that someone else here -can't remember who- told us all exactly the difference between an occlumens and a legi--- (can't remember the name, oops).
Firstly, keep in mind that Snape was said to be an excellant Occulemens, which means he specializes in blocking others from reading his thoughts, memories, emotions... Dumbledore is said to be an excellent Lemens, which means he specializes in breaking into others minds.... I think that Dumbledore could penetrate Snape's mind as long as he's a better lemens than Snape is an occulemens.....
Secondly, I think Dumbledore is also a very good judge of people and characters, i.e. I think he knows other, more subtle, ways of judging whether someone is lieing to him or not.....
popkin - Oct 8, 2003 1:07 pm (#304 of 644)
Also, Harry, a relatively young and untrained wizard was able to break into Snape's thoughts and see things that Snape would almost certainly rather he did not. If Harry can do it, certainly Dumbledore can.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 8, 2003 2:21 pm (#305 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 3:21 pm
DD is a good Lemens? Where does it say that? I'm not saying you're making it up, I just want to know where it's written because I hadn't noticed. I thought DD was an occlumens all along.
Weeny Owl - Oct 8, 2003 2:31 pm (#306 of 644)
It's in chapter thirty-seven, "The Lost Prophecy," when Dumbledore is telling Harry about Kreacher. Dumbledore said he was a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens to know when he was being lied to.
Pisceswicca - Oct 8, 2003 4:09 pm (#307 of 644)
Ok, let me see if I can get my thoughts straight and easy to understand (I know that my ideas can be all jumbled up). So Snape is an excellent Occlumens and DD is an excellent Lemens. Assuming Snape is a better Occlumens than DD is an Lemens, than he can "block" his mind and not let DD see that he is actually a DE. Therefore DD thinks he really has switched. That still can't be proof enough to DD that Snape is good. He knows he's a skilled Occlumens, so he really wouldn't know, right? And the fact that he's as wise as he is and that he's a good judge of character because of "other reasons" -DD IS still human. He said so himself. He's not perfect.
And assuming that DD is a better Lemens than Snape an Occlumens and that he CAN "break" into Snape's mind - wouldn't that be too simple of an explanation of him knowing that Snape DID in fact, switch? Why would it be such a problem for him to tell Harry if that really is the reason why he knows he can trust Snape? Because there's something else, that's why. Him being able to read Snape's thoughts and therefor know he's good is too easy. It can't be that. And Harry keeps questioning DD's reasons for trusting Snape. Wouldn't DD even give him THAT reason, even to just make Harry stop asking him so much? You know, "keep him quiet" about it? Because him being a good Lemens and being able to "read" Snape is NOT the reason why he trusts Snape. Like I said, there's something else.
So them being great Occlumens and Lemens doesn't really make that much of a difference. DD doesn't really have proof that Snape is good, and on the other hand, THAT being the proof - would be way too simple. It would make things and reasons too easy.
So that brings me to the reason having to be something else, like I keep saying over and over again like a royal pain in the you-know-what.
Anybody...?
Pisceswicca - Oct 8, 2003 4:34 pm (#308 of 644)
You know, this is practically the only section I post in! I'm obsessed with Snape!
I have to start posting elswhere as well...hahahaha.... :-D
Gina R Snape - Oct 8, 2003 4:56 pm (#309 of 644)
Nah, join the club Pisceswicca.
I think Harry was able to see into Snape's memories because Snape was totally thrown off guard and as such not prepared. Don't forget, the force of Harry pushing Snape out of his mind caused Snape to drop his wand and I believe lose his balance. So, Harry had a very short window of "opportunity" before Snape was able to block him out again. Snape may have put some memories in the Pensieve "just in case" but I do think he never expected that it would actually happen.
Also, it's Legilimens, not Lemens. Unless you want to turn HP characters into a misspelled fruit.
zixyer - Oct 8, 2003 6:27 pm (#310 of 644)
Thanks Gina, I was just wondering where they got that word "Lemens". I just searched through OotP and it ain't in there. You're right, the proper word is "Legilimens", both for the incantation and for a person who is skilled in Legilimency.
LilyP - Oct 8, 2003 10:15 pm (#311 of 644)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 11:17 pm
Ok, I just had a brain storm. Remember in OotP when Hermione secretly put a spell on the paper all the members of the DA signed that would let everyone know who the traitor was. Well, maybe Dumbledore has done something similar with Severus (and a few of the other questionable characters like Dung). Dumbledore knows Snape hasn't betrayed him yet, because the sign (whatever that may be) has not shown up on Snape's forehead. So all the occlumency and legilimency is good, but the final answer is on Snape.
As for the Occlumens vs Legilimens, I then begin to wonder what effect the pensieve has in all this. When you remove a memory, the occlumens doesn't have access to it. I always assumed that was one of the reasons why Snape had one - to remove memories he doesn't want to risk Voldemort seeing.
Madam Pince - Oct 8, 2003 10:22 pm (#312 of 644)
I agree with Pisceswicca -- there is some reason other than legilimency that assures Dumbledore that he can trust Snape. That would be just too boring. I feel sure it is something that Snape did in the past, that we just haven't found out about yet. Can't wait!
A little off-topic, but along the same lines...same thing about why Dumbledore knows he can "...trust Hagrid with my life." Wonder what that circumstance was? I just don't think it's legilimency for either situation -- it's something specific that the person has done that assures DD of their loyalty.
popkin - Oct 9, 2003 12:21 am (#313 of 644)
LilyP, that's a great idea. Things like that paper have a way of turning up again, don't they? I bet Dumbledore has got a way of knowing for certain that he can trust Snape, and if the trust is ever broken.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 5:36 am (#314 of 644)
LilyP. I think your idea about Snape putting some of his memories in the pensieve, such as where the OoP headquarters are when he goes to Voldy is an excellent idea. He doesn't have to lie and say he doesn't know, because he doesn't...the memories are in the pensieve.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 5:53 am (#315 of 644)
Fawkesy Lady-- Uh oh, does that mean that if you put memories in the pensieve, you have no recollection of them yourself? Oh dear, this gets tricky, doesn't it? DD and Snape both seemed to know instantly what Harry was "seeing" in their respective pensieves. Help, everyone!
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 6:28 am (#316 of 644)
If DD and Snape remembered the memories in the pensieve, what is the point of taking the memories out of your head then? Perhaps when Snape caught Harry with his head in the pensieve, he know Harry was looking at the memories, but didn't know which until he put them back into his head.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 6:33 am (#317 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 7:34 am
Or maybe when he grabbed Harry by the neck, he glanced over the rim of the pensieve. When I get a chance, I'll re-read the scenes where Harry is looking into the pensieves.
Another tricky question, even if you can't remember specifics about what's in your pensieve, do you remember that you've placed memories in one? If so (and, how would you know to retrieve them if not), aren't you vulnerable to V. or the DEs to give up the information of where your pensieve is or even that you've used one? Oy.
Ciao. Barb
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 6:58 am (#318 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 7:59 am
I think you'd remember that you'd parked something in the Pensieve, you just wouldn't remember what it was. However, I suspect that a good Legilimens would have a chance of snatching that recollection out of your skull, at which point they might be curious about why you'd been parking memories someplace, even if they didn't know what the memory was. However, they would have to sort through everything else in your head to find the memory of using the Pensieve, which is probably harder if you aren't red-flagging that recollection by worrying about it. Of course, with Snape, a Legilimens would have to search through all the back issues of Potions Quarterly, 1000 magical plants and fungi, plus all the other potions-related and Dark-arts related stuff he's memorized, plus every Quidditch game he's ever seen, every argument he's ever lost at a faculty meeting, plus all the grades he's given in 14 years of teaching, as well as the text of every letter of recommendation he's ever written.
I find it interesting that Snape prefers supressing all emotion connected with his memories [which isn't a complete success, as he's unable to supress the anger, even if he's deprived himself of all other feelings]. I would think it would be much more helpful to concentrate all your fear and anxiety into a fairly trivial item, thus red-flagging that one, over all others. Imagine the Dork Lard's frustration at following up a promising hot lead of fear, to find your concern about getting caught up on the ironing, or whether you'd mislaid a library book, or put out the fire before you left the house.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 7:27 am (#319 of 644)
fidelio, I like your suggestion of hiding an important memory buried in a bunch of trivial ones (though I do not --ahem-- consider a lost library book trivial). It's sort of the same idea as reacting to a boggart with something silly that makes you laugh.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 7:49 am (#320 of 644)
fidelio,I agree with Mdm Librarian about your more detailed ideas of the pensieve. Didn't DD say something about the amount of memories he has and keeping them in the pensieve. That would mean that he knows he has memories there, but not necessarily what they were. I think that Snape has had to hold back on so many thoughts and feelings his whole life, that it comes as a second nature. However, he doesn't seem to have difficulty showing his feelings towards Harry.
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 8:10 am (#321 of 644)
Well, he needs some sort of outlet, I guess. But what are the feelings he shows towards Harry? Think about it.
Do we, in fact, see Severus Snape ever display joy in anything other than triumph over an adversary? Simple contentment? Affection? Kindly concern? Amusement over anything except someone's discomfiture or humiliation? The poor twisted slob has taken everything resembling a normal human emotion that he might have and either suppressed it, twisted it in an effort to protect himself [whether from Voldemort's prying, or a childhood fear of exploitation--dating to before he ever made it to Hogwarts, I suspect], or either uprooted it or had it uprooted for him.
There's a lot of rage and pain left, and this seems to be behind every display of feeling we see from him.
Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 8:21 am (#322 of 644)
That still doesn't clear up the issue of your enemies knowing you've used a pensieve to hold important information. Maybe you just don't do that if you're smart. You use the pensieve for non-essential ones, keep the critical ones in your head and hope your occlumency skill is in top form.
OK, I can live with that.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 8:28 am (#323 of 644)
Mdm., good point. Obviously DD has some important memories in his pensieve (the Wizengamot's decision on the DE). I think perhaps temporarily removing important memories is ok, but better to keep them in your head?
fidelio, you said you don't remember Snape showing any joy. In PoA wasn't he excited (not exactly the word I was looking for but just go with it) when he thought he might get Order of Merlin 1st Class for catching Sirius? When Sirius escapes, of course we see angry Severus again.
fidelio - Oct 9, 2003 8:34 am (#324 of 644)
They might be able to figure out you've put something into a pensieve, if they can locate the memory of putting something in a pensieve.
If you seem anxious about this, they are likely to suspect what you put in there matters a lot to you.
A skilled occlumens might be able to conceal the memory of using the pensieve in the first place, or make it seem like a trivial matter in the second. However, Snape was using his as temporary storage for things he apparently didn't want Harry to see. DD, however, was using his to sort and classify his thoughts about a specific problem, by gathering them together in one place where he could sort though and review them, looking for connections and patterns. Therefore, there are more reasons for using them than as a temporary memory bank, so the fact of having used one is not immediately a give-away that you're hiding one or more betraying memories. Presumably, you could have used it to gather together all you recollections of a person, either for writing a eulogy for their funeral--or to figure out, based on past behavior, what they'd be likely to do in a given situation--or even if you could spot betraying details they were selling you out. You could assemble everything you know about the uses of wild onions in potions, or all the plays by beaters [or chasers, keepers, or seekers] in all the Quidditch games you'd ever seen, to figure out future strategies--or to write about playing a certain position.
I suspect that the more you use a pensieve for purposes other than banking memories the easier it becomes to convince a Legilimens that a suspicious use is just another run-of-the-mill occurence. After all, it would be your anxiety over the use of the pensieve that would tip them off that there was something important there--remember how Snape described a Legilimens using your emotions to lead them to important things?
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 9, 2003 8:41 am (#325 of 644)
fidelio, I never thought of other uses for the pensieve. Very good (applauds). I suppose we should get back on topic - Severus, before we get yelled at.
Gina R Snape - Oct 9, 2003 9:14 am (#326 of 644)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 10:17 am
fidelio strikes again!
I about cracked up at the idea of Voldemort looting through Snape's mind and coming up with student recommendations and faculty meetings and such.
But, and I believe this has been suggested before, he would likely come up with memories of Snape being mean to Neville and Harry, and his apparent dislike of them. This, of course, would further solidify Voldemort's belief in Snape being on the side of the DEs.
...which brings me to another thought... The legilimency chapters are so fascinating to me because I can see so many dynamics going on at once both plainly and between-the-lines:
Snape's general distaste for Potter.
Snape feeling resentful about this assignment.
Snape enjoying torturing Potter a little bit and taking pot shots at him verbally.
Snape deliberately choosing his words so as not to reveal anything Dumbledore wants not revealed.
Snape deliberately choosing his words so that if Voldemort sees this memory he will not be suspicious.
Snape getting to know Potter a little better (eg. asking about the memory of the dogs).
Snape on a mission to get information for Dumbledore on what Potter has seen in his dreams. Etc.
JKR was so ingenious, that these chapters are among my faves even apart from the fact that they are about Severus.
Oh, and of course we could also spend months discussing what it means when he runs his finger over his lips while thinking. Interesting gesture.
popkin - Oct 9, 2003 10:05 am (#327 of 644)
Edited by Oct 9, 2003 11:08 am
About Snape's emotions, I think they seem to run especially deep within him. He has enormous pride about Slitherin House and its accomplishments, his abilities as a Potions Master, his abilities in general. He also seems to reserve a special kind of pride for Draco, and appears to consider himself Draco's mentor. He is certainly emotional about the fact that Dumbledore trusts him. I'm not sure exactly what the emotion is - definitely defensiveness, but also loyalty? pride? something more?
Anyway, Snape does take pleasure in certain things besides victory over perceived enemies. He seems to take a very special pleasure in those things which require intricate precision - like potions. He enjoys activities which require intense patience.
This is the one quality in Snape that I find most likely to make it possible for him to be a terrible traitor to Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. I can see him waiting very patiently, taking pride in every tiny step, attending to each little detail, setting up the dominos one by one until they are all in place. Then, after years or even decades have passed, when his task is completed, he taps the last domino and watches as the rest fall into place. In a flash, he steps forward and takes everything - from Dumbledore, from Lucius, from Voldemort - and realizes his ambition - a new empire with the patient Potions Master at its head.
Fortunately for the good guys, he'll have underestimated his opponent - Harry Potter - and his plan will fail.
Pam Galloway - Oct 9, 2003 12:13 pm (#328 of 644)
Snape absolutely FASCINATES me...Clearly, some of you as well...I've these questions:
In "Snape's Worst Memory", while humiliating and tormenting Severus, James replies to Lily..."It's more the fact that he exists, you know what I mean?"
Probably just a throw away line...but there are 4 characters, each specified as having jet black hair. Harry, James, Severus and Tom Riddle...(I think Sirius may have "black" as well, but definitely "dark".)
Since we know almost nothing about James' family, and we do know that Severus had an unpleasant home life as a child...could there be a connection? Anyone have relatives they would rather not recognize?(but who has time to spend all day exploring the possibilities???)
I like the "Severus loved Lily" theme...however, he does call her a "Mudblood" when she comes to his aid. But, those full of hurt are often hurtful. If he was enamoured with Lily, his pain of humiliation and disgust at that moment would have been almost consuming.
Also, I found the "Persues" anagram interesting...has anyone any thoughts on his name being "Sever Us"?
One last thing for now...if Severus is spying on Voldemort, couldn't he be using Polyjuice? Of course, he'd only have an hour...
Dunja - Oct 10, 2003 12:06 am (#329 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 1:07 am
Did you know what "severus" means? It means strict, it's a Latin adjective and it's fully form is severus, severa, severum (masculinum, femininum, neutrum). I'm not sure if anybody said this already.
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 4:19 am (#330 of 644)
Cleo, we have discussed this topic numerous times on various threads in the Forum. I just tried using the "search" function with keyword "character names meanings," and got lots of hits. There is no one thread that covers it all because sometimes it has come up under the individual character's thread. We have talked about how JKR sometimes plans in both the meaning and pronounciation of the name (e.g., Sirius=serious).
There are also wonderful definitions given in the Lexicon itself. Check it out, why not?
So, the fact that "Severus" does not mean "sever us" may not matter in the end. What we hear in our mind's...um...ear, just adds to the complexity of the character and may turn out to actually be a valid clue.
Ciao. Barb
Sly Girl - Oct 10, 2003 4:27 am (#331 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 5:29 am
Actually, Barb.. there is a thread dedicated to the name meanings..
it's located here: Lucky Charmzz "Is there more to the meaning of character names?" 8/27/03 1:47pm
EDIT: It'll probably be condensed and edited to be kept for later viewing and added to.
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 4:36 am (#332 of 644)
Sly Girl, I found that one, too, but I know there was more so I suggested the search function. I scanned that one and didn't see the comments pertaining to just what Cleo was talking about so I figured they must have come up somewhere else.
Aaaiiii! The Forum is going to need its own Lexicon just to keep our own good ideas straight!!
Ciao. Barb
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 10, 2003 6:48 am (#333 of 644)
The meanings for Sirius and Severus are so close, I wonder if there is a connection, brothers, cousins, twins raised apart? I am sure that has also been discussed in other threads.
Popkin, I really like your thoughts on Snape's patience, especially regarding taking everything from Lucius.
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 7:19 am (#334 of 644)
Thanks, Fawkesy Lady. I would really like to like Snape, but I'm afraid JKR is setting us up for a big disappointment in his regard. I'm afraid Sirius was speaking very truthfully when he said no one ever leaves the Dark Lord's service - they either serve 'til their death, or die trying to leave (paraphrased).
Other than Snape, are there any Death Eaters who were successful in turning away from Lord Voldemort's service?
Sinister Kittens - Oct 10, 2003 7:31 am (#335 of 644)
popkin - I can't think of any that tried it and survived... Very good question!
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 7:34 am (#336 of 644)
Is Regulus Black a possible survivor? There are some telling hints about him with the Stubby Boardman business. That whole thing is very confusing. Now this really is on the wrong thread. Moderators, if it's worth pursuing the question popkin raised, should it be moved?
Ciao. Barb
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 7:40 am (#337 of 644)
Edited by Oct 10, 2003 8:45 am
I see there is a new thread called "Death Eaters". I'll post my comment there.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 10, 2003 9:48 am (#338 of 644)
What about Karkaroff? Ican't remember what happened to him.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 10, 2003 3:00 pm (#339 of 644)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 4:02 pm
Sorry to talk to switch topic, but I've gone to my town for the weekend, I didnt' think there'd be so many posts when I got back... actually it's more of a "going back to this..". I've been gone for two days, I can imagine poor Tim when he gets back from his holiday..
About the reason why you put thoughts into your pensive, I think it has something to do with having to remember every single detail,etc. When you put a thought into your pensive it remains intact; that is, if you forget every detail of a memory, you can just look at it in your pensive. DD said something about your mind being too full to remember everything, I think.
Also, is it my imagination, (or maybe it was a dream or something!), but did I read somewhere in OoP that Snape had borrowed the pensive from DD? (I can imagine some of you saying " WHAT is this girl talking about??!"), it was just something that popped into my mind. I'm not sure where I read it, if I read it at all... .
Oh, I didn't know where to post this but what does "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" mean? I know Draco is "dragon" in latin; "dormiens" is sleep or something, and "nunquam" is never. But what does everything together mean?
Please, comments on that and on the pensive belonging to DD... .
PS: Sly Girl, I looove your display pic!
Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 3:02 pm (#340 of 644)
The quote means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" which is the Hogwarts motto.
Ciao. Barb
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 10, 2003 3:12 pm (#341 of 644)
Interesting!! Thanks Barb.
Ok now any thoughts on the pensive Snape was using being DD's?
popkin - Oct 10, 2003 3:22 pm (#342 of 644)
The pensive was borrowed from Dumbledore. Snape used it for hiding certain private thoughts during occlumens lessons. He might also have been using it to hide thoughts from Lord Voldemort - but that is just speculation.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 3:47 pm (#343 of 644)
No, Harry thinks that it's Dumbledore's Pensieve. But we don't know for sure.
I think a lot of people missed this discussion on the EZBoard. But, there was a huge debate about it. I think it doesn't matter if it's DD's or not. I think it's reusable like a cup or a bowl. No one else would (could?) use it so long as someone else's thoughts are in it. So, in effect, you "clean it out" before borrowing it out.
Pisceswicca - Oct 10, 2003 8:42 pm (#344 of 644)
I don't know about the Pensieve being "reusable" or not. I don't think so...maybe you can put a special kind of "code" or spell on it so as to "block" it from other people...perhaps? but everyone would have to have their own spell or "password", if you will - not one spell would be the same. I don't know... It would'nt make sense that the Pensieve be "reusable" like a cup or bowl. DD said that he stored thoughts there so that he could go back to them if necessary. And we saw that he had IMPORTANT thoughts there that Harry was able to access about the trials of the DE's and of Crouch's son and all that. Those all seemed too important for DD to have "cleaned them out" so that Snape could use them.
And another thing. There's not too much detail on how the Pensieve works in the first place. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall it mentioning it anywhere that once you put your thought in the Pensieve, you don't have a recollection of it. I mean, if you can access certain thoughts at will, you'd have to remember which ones they were, right? DD said that sometimes too many thoughts can be overbearing - that when you have so many things to remember it's difficult to keep track of everthing. So you don't have to make an EFFORT to remember details of recollections. You know what they are, you remember them, but sometimes you have to think too hard on the DETAILS. You have to put effort in knowing the EXACT details. So, in that case, you access the Pensieve to remember the exact, exact way things happened.
And another thing - I love the way fidelio describes possible purposes for the Pensieve. And if I'm not wrong, that is vaguely how DD described the Pensieve. Bravo to fidelio! That was great.
And I like how it was put that Snape does and says things in a way so that if Voldy DOES access his thoughts off-guard, his actions and words are so ambiguous that he'd not really have an exact way of knowing that he was betraying him.
About Harry seeing Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve? I don't know what to think....it DOES seem that Snape put them in there temporarily so that Harry wouldn't have access to his thoughts. But than again that would contradict to what I just said about how the Pensieve works, right? It's almost logical that Snape put his thoughts in there just because of that. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Well, I'm already a little jumbled up...help, anywone?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 11, 2003 10:49 am (#345 of 644)
Hey, that's true, I hadn't thought of that (of Snape putting those memories in his pensive so that Harry wouldnt' be able to access them). I think it's tricky and unfair, why should Snape have access to Harry's private memories (him and Cho,for instance) when he doesn't allow Harry do the same thing? A sign of his childish behaviour, maybe?
Pisceswicca; yes, I see what you mean by that contradiction. But I think it's the whole detail thing; but either way, even if you do put it in your pensive that doesn't mean you forget about it, and what stays in your memory still preserves it's essence. This would mean that Voldie could see Snape talking to DD in the OP headquarters, but not in detail. If the Pensive works that way, then Snape isn't using it to hide his thoughts from Voldie or any DE for that matter. This would also mean that he wasn't using the Pensive during Occlumency to hide his thoughts from Harry.
And one thing, in GoF Harry got pulled out of the pensive by DD; in OoP, it was Snape who helped Harry up. Is there a way to get out of the Pensive on your own?
Gina R Snape - Oct 11, 2003 1:38 pm (#346 of 644)
Hee. Rose, I wouldn't say Snape exactly "helped" Harry out so much as forcibly removed him.
But I've wondered that myself, about getting out. How many people read that chapter and yelled at the book "Harry! Are you crazy?! Get out before Snape comes back!!!" But perhaps Harry doesn't know how to get out.
Pisceswicca - Oct 11, 2003 5:02 pm (#347 of 644)
I guess Harry WOULDN'T be in some sort of life-debt to Snape, because it was actually his mother who risked her life to save him. But if Snape was in fact the one who told DD about the attack against the Potters, he therefore tried to save the lives of them ALL, right? I guess it depends on the way you look at it. It could either be that way, or it was just James. Whatever...
I've also wondered how you can get out of the Pensieve on your own. When Harry was in there I practically tore my hair out, knowing Snape was going to come into the room any second! Of course we KNEW Snape was going to catch him that moment, there was no question about it.
See you guys later! :-D
Gina R Snape - Oct 11, 2003 8:00 pm (#348 of 644)
Yeah. But I noticed JKR had a way of writing so that we were sucked in right along with Harry, and just when we forgot all about being in a Pensieve :BAM: that's when Snape came back.
Pisceswicca - Oct 12, 2003 8:39 am (#349 of 644)
Well, as far as we know, Karkaroff is still at large, isn't he? We don't know where he is right now. I DO suspect we haven't heard the last from him, though...Rowling isn't just going to have it like thatf. He's coming back and I suspect we're going to see a whole lot of things happening where he's involved. Either he's still running away from Voldy or he's still with him and pretending to be good. But that defenitely was NOT the last we heard from him.
And about what Sirius said about nobody leaving Voldy's side, or that they die trying, I don't know.... I think most of the ones that are saying so are on to something when we talk about Snape being the spy on Voldy while still appearing to him a DE. I think there's much MORE to it, details and such, and just pieces we haven't figured out yet that will sort of explain it all better to us, but I think we're defenitely on to something on that thread.
Now, does anywone think that Snape will have a "moment of weakness" at some point and do something to momentarily betray DD? Just a thought. I don't know whether to go along that train of thought, but I'm sure a few people have thought it, nevertheless. Maybe Voldy will promise Snape something no one has EVER promised him and Snape will be on the brink of "Good" and "Evil"?
Then again, maybe it's not likely because it's like history would be repeating itself and then DD REALLY would never trust Snape ever again. Besides, Snape ALREADY did something to prove himself to DD. Just a thought going on in my head in the name of all those who still don't entirely don't like and trust Snape...
Any other thoughts on ANYTHING regarding Snape? Is there anything we haven't gone over?
Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2003 10:05 am (#350 of 644)
I'm not sure Snape will have a moment of weakness, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's being loyal to Dumbledore because he truly wants Voldie gone only so he can become the next powerful dark wizard.
If Voldie and the current Death Eaters are conquered and Snape lies low for a few years, he could have his own Death Eaters from Slytherin that he's personally trained. They're already used to obeying their Head of House, after all, and being in Slytherin makes them ambitious. I could see Draco becoming to Snape what Lucius is to Voldie.
I don't completely and totally believe that will happen, but I just cannot trust Snape or his motives regardless of whether or not Dumbledore trusts him.
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Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 12, 2003 11:19 am (#351 of 644)
I don't think this will happen. I don't think his decision has been DD over Voldie, but "good" over "evil".
LevTRox - Oct 12, 2003 12:57 pm (#352 of 644)
Hi, I'm new and my use of grammer on the NET is imaculate normally...got an A in English honest!
I find Snape very interesting for many resons and I think I've just trawled throuh this *whole* thread to check I won't be repeating things. Feel freed to tell me my ideas are rubbish.
I found that Snape shares his name (Severus that is) with a Roman emperor concidered exeptionally shrewd, ambitious...generally shareing many Slytherin like qualities (Niccolo Machiavelli thought extrememly highly of him). When the old emperor died Severus (the emperor not the fictional potions master) marches his army straight to Rome manages to get rid of his rivals to the imperial throne and is victorious, keeps the army happy and the civillians in line - without particularly indulging either of them and manages to die of natural cases (quite a feat for a Roman Emperor). As far as emperors go he did good. Maybe Snape is destined for great things?
Hope you didn't find the history lesson too dull.
Why did he join the Death Eaters? The Death Eaters seem to be (or were) a text book fascist organisation (although I have no idea if they hate the Left - because the Left seem to be dissapointingly inactive in the wizarding world, oppose homosexuality and abortion or if they were ever funded by big corperations). Fascist organisations typically appeal to the middle-classes ("pure-blood" wizards seem to fall into this category), the dissolusioned and youth; Snape falls smack bang into all of these categories and with his apparent deepseated ontological insecurity he is a prime target for their evil brainwashing. Remember Sirius talking about how a lot of wizards thinking Voldemort had the right idea when he started up (somewhere on OoP)? Well that suggests, to me, that joining an organisation like the Death Eaters wasn't going to take much *effort* initially. If there was popular feling towards Voldemort's ideas he's hardly going to have to go around in secret (prior to people finding out how far he's going to go that is) he'd probably hand out leaflets!
On the hair (my most frivalous thought) people can naturally have the sort of hair that gets very greasy quickly (not me I'm a bona fide Lily Evans type red head but I must stick up for the less lucky) it's not like he seems to have universal bad hygine, does anyone ever say Snape smells or had bad breath?! No I don't think so! And working in a dungeon full of cauldrons boiling up greusome dead bits of things can't be benificial to hair care!
I'm new so don't be too mean to me please
popkin - Oct 12, 2003 6:09 pm (#353 of 644)
Welcome to the forum, LevTRox. You had a lot of interesting thoughts - especially about the Roman emperor Severus. I hope you always have fun on this forum, and I think you'll find everyone is pretty nice.
Gina R Snape - Oct 12, 2003 7:45 pm (#354 of 644)
Welcome LevTRox. We may be discussing Snape, but that doesn't mean will treat you like Snape would!
I've heard the Emperor Severus theory before. Oh, but were it to come true... I really hope he doesn't wind up horribly tragic. My poor Sev has been through enough already.
Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 4:46 am (#355 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 5:48 am
I must say that I don't think Snape is some really negative guy.His attitude to Harry we can explain with his past.Harry's father treated him really bad,and he wants to revenge to James through Harry. Snape himself had a very depresing childhood.Nobody liked him,people laughed at him and all he wants to do now is revenge to people,back.It's a human's psychology. He already saved Harry which he didn't have to. J.K.Rowling has prooved she's unpredictible and maby she'll surprise us about Snape,too.Sorry if I'm not wright.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 13, 2003 7:40 am (#356 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 8:40 am
Yes, I think so too, I don't think the way you treat someone or a few people defines your personality. Like Sirius said, the world isn't divided into Good people and Death Eaters. Snape is a good person (I'm quite sure of this), he's just a bitter, unpleasant fellow.
And welcome LevTrox! I'm sure you'll like this place.
Iman Khan - Oct 13, 2003 7:52 am (#357 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 9:00 am
well we know that Snape is a gifted leglimens... and that skill allowed Snape to betray Voldemort and spy on him... but what if he used the same skill against DD? it is possible, and we still don't know why he left Voldemorts side... because he's definitely evil enough.. or is he? then again, DD said in the pensieve in GoF that Snape hard turned back before the fall of the dark side... why? we don't know.. I'm just hoping that JKR comes out with Book 6 already...
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 8:13 am (#358 of 644)
May I point out that if Dumbledore *knows* already Snape is a good occlumens/legimens he will have probably taken this into account and found some other way to be sure of Snape's loyalty to him.
Speaking as someone who's had their share of bullying at school I'm not surprised at Snape's attitude to Harry. Wouldn't you be a bit irritated if one day you met the kids of someone who bullied you and they were under the impression their bullying parent was a saint?!
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 8:53 am (#359 of 644)
Lev - "Wouldn't you be a bit irritated if one day you met the kids of someone who bullied you and they were under the impression their bullying parent was a saint?!"
A bit irritated? Possibly, but most adults wouldn't spend five years tormenting a child for what someone else did.
I can easily understand Snape's hatred for James and Sirius. I can understand Snape's attitude toward Harry regarding all of the rule breaking. What I cannot understand is how a grown man could punish a child over and over and over again for something that happened before the child was even born.
After four years of knowing Harry, Snape should realize that Harry doesn't have the arrogance James had, and Harry doesn't hex people just for fun, yet in the first Potions class of fifth year, Snape makes Harry's potion disappear and gives him a zero even though other students' potions were worse.
Until the Pensieve scene, Harry had really never done anything to Snape personally. Granted, there was the Shrieking Shack scene where Snape was knocked out, but Harry wasn't the only one involved in that.
Snape is the one with the power and he doesn't hesitate to use it to humiliate Harry at every possible opportunity. What recourse does Harry have when it's a professor? Harry is fairly helpless in his dealings with Snape while Snape knows he can do pretty much anything short of actual physical injuries.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:04 am (#360 of 644)
Okay I back down.
He's just not a well adjusted person.
I don't think Dumbledore could possible be in any doubt of Snape's loyalty. He is fully aware of Snape's past as a Death Eater and he's not going to knowingly let a murderous psychopath near children (although he doesn't have a good track record...). Okay Quirrel was too wet to be suspicious, Lockheart was only a Murderous Psychopath in exceptional circumstances (when his bestselling reputation was threatened), Lupin was only a Murderous Psychopath when being a wolf minus wolfsbane potion, Crouch Junior...was very convincingly Moody, Umbridge well DD wasn't willing to have her on the staff...I haven't got a leg to stand on with this "Dumbledore wouldn't let murderous psychopaths near children" idea have I?
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:13 am (#361 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 10:28 am
How do you know Snape is particularly mean?
Harry is just a school kid after all and all this stuff about Snape being unpleasant seems to come from the perspective of students or people who bullied him at school, he might just be a run of the mill unpleasantly strict teacher. Everyone has teachers they reckon have got it in for them and when they grow up they realise they were being a little unreasonable and they weren't really *that* bad.
Maybe he has a teaching style too authoritarian for Harry and Co to swallow? Harry, lovely and brave as he is, does seem to have a small problem with authority.
Maybe sarcasm is Snape's idea of a joke?
I don't think I'd like to be taught by him at all I'd probably HATE it in fact; but being a teacher does't mean you have to be an angel.
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 9:30 am (#362 of 644)
Lev - "Everyone has teachers they reckon have got it in for them and when they grow up they realise they were being a little unreasonable and they weren't really *that* bad."
I can see your point of view with Snape's treatment of most students, but Harry is the exception. Snape has "evanescoed" Harry's potions and given him zeros, he's knocked a perfectly good potion off his desk only to give Harry a zero, he threatens Harry with Veritaserum, he puts Harry in detention when other students have done worse things, and he singles Harry out for his most cutting comments.
He accuses Harry of stealing potion ingredients, yet when Barty Crouch, Jr. confesses that he's the one who stole the boomslang skin, Snape still treats Harry as if he's some form of disgusting bacteria. Granted, Dobby stole the gillyweed for Harry, but Harry didn't spend his fourth year breaking into Snape's office.
Being a strict teacher is one thing, but where Harry is concerned, Snape isn't just strict... he's vindictive.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:37 am (#363 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 10:38 am
I definately see your point where Harry is concerned. I will stop defending him on the "Teaching Harry" front I do think he's totally out of order.
How do you think Snape became a Death Eater Weeny Owl?
Gina R Snape - Oct 13, 2003 9:51 am (#364 of 644)
Harry breaks a lot of rules without punishment, and he does give Snape and others a lot of cheek. With precious few other interactions, Snape doesn't know Harry isn't as arrogant as his father.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 10:04 am (#365 of 644)
Ah you recognise Harry's small problem with authority too!
Do you think snape has a sense of humour? I've been thinking about this. Wizard humour doesn't seem, as such, to be more sophysticated then tricky practical jokes (i.e. irritating ten-year-old level). Sarcasm and satire seem sparce (just look at the Quibbler, I swear wizards need a decent newspaper!). Do you think Snape's vicious jibes at students could be intended as acid wit rather then intentional cruelty?
Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 10:27 am (#366 of 644)
I agree that Snape treats Harry awfull,but anyway I don't think he's capable to go back to Voldemort.Dumbledore belives to much in him.I think he vould never disapoint him.The only person he has to be thankful to for his freedom and his job is Dumbledor.And I just can't imagine Snape being so meen.And Dumbledore doesn't belive in wrong people.He always repeets that Snape is a good person. Who knows if he had his reason to treat Harry bad.He was already thought to be bad and found to be good,in Harry's first year. Maby there is some point in his treating Harry bad.
Gina R Snape - Oct 13, 2003 11:14 am (#367 of 644)
Oh, I find Snape to be a VERY funny person. I get the sense a lot of people don't get his extremely dry, sarcastic sense of humour. But, c'mon. When he stands behind the boys in CoS and says "Or maybe..." that was just too funny. Teasing and taunting McGonagall about the Quidditch/house cup. Taunting/teasing Hermione about her love life in the newspaper. I can't think of others right now. But they are done with humour. It's just that most children...and especially if you are the direct recipient of Snape's gaze and in fear...won't see the humour in the situation.
No, I say Snape would be a real treat to have at a party. Loosen him up, and that vicious tongue will have people rolling.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 13, 2003 11:23 am (#368 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 12:24 pm
I can see your point on Harry and "authority", but I don't agree 100%. Yes, Harry has broken many rules, but if he hadn't what would have happened with the Philosopher's stone? What about Ginny in book 2? The list goes on, you get the idea. Of course, Harry isn't a saint, but he has got other people's best interest at heart (Sirius's life, for one, in book 5....etc)most of the time he's breaking rules.
Snape should take that into account.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 1:19 pm (#369 of 644)
I don't think "good intentions" hold much water with Snape around.
I think Harry gets away with murder at school and after the fifth book I'm surprised he isn't out on his ear (unless wizards don't concider endangering the lives of your fellow students a bad thing - what did the governers do? Get Neville, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, and Luna together and ask them "are you *really* good at keeping secrets from your parents?")
Anyway this is a Snape thread.
Snape for Minister of Magic! Etc...
What does Snape do in the summer holidays anyway?
Do you think he has a wife and kids hidden away somewhere who he spends some quality time with?
Or do you think he sits in a dark room trying to push back the bounds of potion making and filling out his fantastic new aplication form that will be SURE to land him the DADA position?
Any other suggestions?
Neville Longbottom - Oct 13, 2003 2:49 pm (#370 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 3:50 pm
Just a short off-topic comment: Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna all chose to accompany Harry to the DoM. It's not that he forced them. If they had died, it would have been at least to a big part, because of their own decisions (especially in Neville, Ginny and Luna's case).
Back on topic: With the exception of Tom Riddle, the only part were a student really endangered another one (as far as we know), without his agreement, is Sirius sending Snape to the werewolf. That's why I can absolutely understand Snape's loathing towards Sirius. I, too, would hate someone, who tried to kill me.
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 7:19 pm (#371 of 644)
Lev:
Oh, please don't stop defending him! I'm enjoying this debate immensely.
How did Snape become a Death Eater? Oy, talk about a difficult question! We could theorize from now until the cows come home and never hit on what made him become one or go over to Dumbledore's side.
That's one of the things I truly hope JKR reveals in the sixth book... if not the complete story, then at least some of it.
Gina:
Yes, I have found some of Snape's comments funny, and that "Or maybe.." one just seriously tickled my funny bone. Before I had seen the movie, when I read that part, I just knew something would happen, and when Snape crept up behind them, I loved it.
Yes, Harry does have a problem with authority in some ways, but considering how he grew up, I'm surprised he's as well-mannered as he is. His interactions with Snape are ones I've read a few times just to try to catch a different slant on what's happening.
Rich - Oct 13, 2003 11:40 pm (#372 of 644)
I've always thought the reason Snape went over to Voldemort was jealousy. Though he did seriously loathe Sirius, James, Lupin and Pettigrew I think he wanted to be like them or as good as them. He wanted to prove himself and the only way he saw how was to do things that they couldn't (or wouldn't) which is dark magic.
He was an innocent boy who got caught up in the wrong crowd.
Were/Are his parents pureblood?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 14, 2003 3:28 am (#373 of 644)
Edited Oct 14, 2003 4:51 am
I think Snape's funny too (in his own way). If I were in Hogwarts though I don't think I'd laugh out loud (like I always do when Fred and George say something funny, they really crack me up), I think it would be more of an "inner chuckle". I mean he's so sarcastic, but very funny and dark, that always makes me laugh, but in Snape's case I'd try and keep the liking of that sense of humour to myself.
"How did Snape become a Death Eater?" (Weeny Owl). Well of course there's the influence of his fellow Slytherins. Of course not all Slytherins are bad (but all bad ones were or are Slytherins). But I think what really made him turn to the dark side "officialy" was that he came to the conclusion that the "good" crowd had nothing for him. Like saying "I've got nothing to loose anyway, so what the hell".
Gina, love your display pic!
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 14, 2003 5:47 am (#374 of 644)
Rose, is your picture of Gary Oldman? If it is, in that picture, I can almost see him more as Snape than Sirius, but that's just me. Just to cover my own behind...I love Alan as Snape.
Potion Master's Pet - Oct 14, 2003 6:37 am (#375 of 644)
Re: Sirius trying to get Snape killed.
Did Sirius ever get punished for this?
Neville Longbottom - Oct 14, 2003 6:43 am (#376 of 644)
It is never mentioned. Maybe Snape kept silent, because James saved his life? If Snape told everything or the teachers found out what happened, I am sure Sirius got a severe detention. He obviously wasn't expelled, but I think it's in character for Dumbledore, who believes in second chances, not to expel Sirius.
LevTRox - Oct 14, 2003 10:20 am (#377 of 644)
Weeny Owl: aww, I *want* to debate till the cows come home though!
Maybe Snape had a sudden political conversion?
I see it now...
there he was standing about in his Death Eater's cowl and he thought "What am I DOING?".
He immideately went out and:
joined the SWP
had a hammer and sickle tattooed on the other arm
hung a red flag up in his living room
and spent the rest of his like trying to explain to idiots how Stalin wasn't a real Communist...
That's why Dumbledore trusts Snape, who'd hate someone like Voldemort more than a Socialist?!
Weeny Owl - Oct 14, 2003 1:56 pm (#378 of 644)
Edited Oct 14, 2003 3:00 pm
Lev:
LOL, then moo to you!
I've long pondered the whys and wherefores of Snape's Death Eaterism and conversion to the good guys.
Why did he join the Death Eaters? It might have had something to do with The Marauders and the way they treated him... power would be an intoxicating thing to Snape. Perhaps feeling that he would never be put in a position like that again because the Wizarding World would come to know and fear Death Eaters would give him just the right nudge toward Voldie.
Why did he convert to the good guys? I've wondered if what Harry accidentally saw during that one Occlumency lesson (not when he went into the Pensieve) could have something to do with it. Harry saw what would appear to be Snape's childhood. It looked as if his father was being somewhat abusive toward his mother. I'm wondering if somehow Snape's mother was killed by Voldie or by a Death Eater, and if she was someone Snape loved, he would want to avenge her. He would know he didn't have the power to defeat Voldie alone or really to get much in the way of vengeance, but by going to Dumbledore, he would be able to do something at least.
This is all just supposition, and I'm sure there are much better theories out there, but those are a few thoughts as to why.
Pisceswicca - Oct 14, 2003 7:33 pm (#379 of 644)
That's a very good theory, Weeny Owl. I could see it happening this way, more or less. Snape was tormented as a child by the very people he probably wanted to be like. He was bullied. He was abused at home. He came from a dysfunctional family. He was made fun of by the "beautiful people" in school. Maybe one of those "beautiful people" was a girl he was fond of but whose love was unrequited. Maybe he wanted to be something or do something big - but he couldn't. He got to see life, or a SIDE of life, that many people don't get to see. What's "good" or "evil" is relative. His conception of it is not like many others'.
So maybe he discovers that the Dark Arts is something he's very good at. Maybe it's something that he'd needed to defend himself from the very things that hurt him. Maybe it gave him confidence. Or then again, maybe the "Dark" in the term "Dark Arts" is relative. There's nothing really "good" or "bad." Those concepts don't really exist. This are ambiguous. Nothing is really good or bad. They're both. Maybe that's the way he viewed the Dark Arts. Everybody with me?
So, here's Voldy, in the early days, promising things Snape's always wanted. He's a little "unconventional." He's a little "liberal", if you will. So what? The seemingly "good" people - Sirius, James and Co, didn't ever really do much good for him. They made him miserable. His father, his life at home...
And then maybe, when he thought that Voldy would be good for him, that he had a promising life - Voldy hurts him in a way he couldn't possibly imagine. Maybe he hurt his mother. Maybe he killed someone he loved dearly. So what really IS "good" and what really IS "evil"?
It's not that Snape can't differentiate what really IS "good" and what really is "evil." He knows it's ambiguous, but he knows what is "morally right" and "morally wrong." He then does something to prove to DD that he isn't a DE anymore. All that avenging the kind of life that he had - he sees that it is not the answer. But what IS it that he does?
Of course we'll find out - like I've said time and time again: Snape is probably one of the most important characters in the series, next to Harry. He's the antagonist in the story. We're going to find out some big things about Snape. And he's connected to Harry in more ways that we can imagine, or maybe no one yet thinks he's connected to Harry! But you'll see everyone...
Remarks? Comments?
Madam Pince - Oct 14, 2003 11:21 pm (#380 of 644)
Weeny Owl: "What I cannot understand is how a grown man could punish a child over and over and over again for something that happened before the child was even born."
I think it's because he never got the chance to punish the REAL offender, the person who persecuted him in the first place. If he'd had the chance to exact his revenge on James, he wouldn't be so tough on Harry. Festering bitterness from an injustice suffered is very hard to "outgrow," particularly if it has no other outlet. Harry is now his outlet, I think. Not that it's right, but...
LevTRox - Oct 14, 2003 11:24 pm (#381 of 644)
I think your right, maybe Snape does see "good" and "evil" as more of a subjective thing.
I mentioned this before but the Death Eaters is a fascist organisation, a real text-book one. Snape seems to come from the groups these most appeal to.
He might just join them for the sense of perpose and belonging thses things tend to provide, something he seems to have been deprived of before, rather than face up to his problems.
If Snape has a real moral core in there somewhere he might have left because of feelings of guilt? Nothing might have had to happen *specifically* he might have just, on his own terms, found that he felt what he was doing was morally wrong and left of his own accord?
I don't suppose this idea is exactly *dramatic* but Snape strikes me as more of a person who'd weigh things up before swapping sides rather than rushing in to avenge someone.
He might have discovered to fit in he didn't have to be friends with a bunch of psychotic murderers?
Rich - Oct 14, 2003 11:40 pm (#382 of 644)
On the subject of the ambiguity of good and evil. In one of the books it says something along the lines of "there is no such thing as good and evil there is only power and those strong enough to take it" (I'm not sure of the exact quote). But it pretty much sums up the fact that when Snape was a DE he didn't think what he was doing was evil. Does that make sense?
As for him turning his back on Voldemort. Do you think it could have happened after Lily was killed? What I'm trying to say is do you think Snape had feelings for Lily and it didn't matter to him who Voldemort killed but when Lily died that was the last straw? He finally woke up and realised that what Voldemort was and is doing is evil.
LevTRox - Oct 15, 2003 3:39 am (#383 of 644)
Rich13: Yeah that kind of makes sense, the good and evil thing that is
I don't know about Snape having feelings for Lily though...
Would you honestly call someone you had feelings for, and a quote, a "filthy little mudblood"? If Snape actually cared he probably wouldn't have said this. If he really felt compelled to say something along these lines to show James he wasn't a wimp (or some stupid blokey thing like that) "I don't need help from her!" would have sufficed. "Mudblood" is exactly a conversation-type word in the wizarding world.
I think you might want to check your chronology too Rich. Dumbledore says Snape changed sides a long time BEFORE, Voldemort fell, if Lily's death had been the last straw he would have changed sides AFTER Voldemort fell, see?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 15, 2003 5:19 am (#384 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 6:20 am
Yes Fawkesy Lady, that is Gary Oldman. And I agree with you, he looks more like Snape than Sirius. I would imagine Sirius like that when he was younger though, but not as a fully grown man, as he is now.
LevTRox, I've also thought of Snape leaving on his own accord, due to feelings of guilt. But then again, would that be enough for DD to know for sure that he's with the good guys? It doesn't seem like that to me. Maybe he went to the good guys because he felt it was the right thing to do, then he did something specific -something big and important- to prove himself to DD. Just an idea.
Also, is DD the only one that's 100% sure Snape is actually good? Wouldn't Sirius or Arthur or anyone else in the Order have suspected Snape before?
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 6:00 am (#385 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 7:11 am
As to why/how Snape became a DE, I found Barty Crouch JR's rant about the similarities between Voldy and himself enlightening--it sounded almost as if he was, in part, repeating something Voldy had said to him--winning the younger Barty over by sympathizing with him and pointing out what they had in common--fathers they disliked, and so on. I can see him employing the same methods on Snape, as well as possible blandishments by Lucius and Bellatrix, who, in their own day, must have been parts of 'cool' factions at school, based on looks, family social status, and strength of personality.
I also wonder is Snape's early edge in the Dark Arts might have come from an exposure to this at home--perhaps his father was a practitioner in a big way. It's also possible that he was studying up on those curses in order to get even with his father--revenge against an abusive parent, especially a father, is a common issue with abused children, particularly with boys, and even more so when they see their mothers abused as well. [Mistreatment of his mother would have been yet another hook for Voldy to sink into Snape--after, his died when she was abandoned]. Extending the mother issue [and I think that's reasonable--love, from mothers and for mothers, is a big thing in JKR's writing, in case you hadn't noticed! ] to Snape's turn away from the DEs, it could be because his mother found out, and made it plain she wasn't happy about this. It could even have been a dying wish of hers--and I can see that having even more impact in the WW world than it does among us. She wouldn't have to be killed by Voldy and/or DEs to make this a big thing, either.
As far as Snape calling Lily names--it's been noted before that he was in a horribly embarrassing situation, and not inclined to appreciate being seen by her, or anyone else, in that position, but also to be embarrassed at the thought he needed to be rescues by a girl. Resorting to name-calling seems pretty natural, given his general misanthropy, in addition to his youthful gaucheness at that point in time. Not admirable, certainly, but in character. This wouldn't keep him from potentially being fascinated by her--she may have been one of the very first muggle-born people he'd ever met in his life--you all may recall the extent to which even Ron found the Muggle-borns in their first year unusual--and he'd been hearing about Muggles from his father all his life. The sheer 'exotic' [to him] nature of Lily's background may have made her fascinating to him--and her looks wouldn't have hurt, either. Also, her 'stick up for the underdog' attitude [shades of Hermione!] seems atypical of the WW, which doesn't always find exploiting the weaker to be bad, in and of itself. Given Snape's difficulty dealing normally with others, and, er, complex, emotional life, I don't think that at the age of fifteen or sixteen he'd have managed to find a more appropriate way to express an interest in a girl. It's a tough age, and it's worse for some than others--I think Snape was a permanent resident in adolescent hell--he's still not free of it altogether!
Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 8:35 am (#386 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 9:45 am
Interesting ideas, everyone. I'll have to think about them for a bit.
fidelio: I think this is a superb description of Snape: I think Snape was a permanent resident in adolescent hell--he's still not free of it altogether!
In the chapter, "Christmas on the Closed Ward," Phineas Nigellus is talking to Harry and says, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
I'm wondering if that's a clue about Snape. He would be saving his own neck by siding with Dumbledore, even though there's a risk involved. Maybe in the last two books when push comes to shove, if it's a choice between Snape and someone else, Snape will choose to save himself.
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 9:10 am (#387 of 644)
Saving himself is a distinct possibility. But I think he's sticking his head out so far right now with the double life (spying inside and keeping a cover with the students) that he's already putting his life in danger every single day. The only thing I can imagine is that it just gets to be too much for the poor guy after all these years.
Madam Pince - Oct 15, 2003 11:03 am (#388 of 644)
Very nice, fidelio -- I like your ideas about Crouch, Jr. and also about Snape's mother's dying wish. I feel certain that he was "hooked" by Voldemort by something to do with the memory that seemed to show us an abusive father. And it would be very JKR-ish to have his mother's opinion become a major factor in his life decisions.
I am convinced that, in the end, our dear Severus is going to "pass thru the veil" by saving someone else, however. Good catch about Phineas' comment, but I'm also thinking of the Sorting Hat and the idea that the houses need to re-unite. Perhaps Snape's sacrifice (whatever it turns out to be) will break the Slytherin mold and bring the houses together again.
Madame Librarian - Oct 15, 2003 12:50 pm (#389 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 1:52 pm
All kinds of wonderful ideas here, folks. Lots to ponder.
The "save our own necks" comment stood out to me, too. It's just possible, granted a little simplistic, that at some point, Snape, who is no dummy, assessed the eventual outcome of the conflict, and decided that V., in the long run, would not win. That was the factor that sent Snape back to the good guys. Of course, JKR could make this a more elaborate process, but at the core, this would be the motivation.
Another thought--maybe Snape was on to the fact that V. was Muggle-born, and simply could not take him a a true heir of anything. Again, he could see V.'s little empire falling apart at some point, and all kinds of internal squabbling would just further destory its temporary hold on the WW.
And, one last idea--Snape is the classic outsider: geeky, sullen, unkempt, rude, unable to laugh at himself, easily offended, etc. etc. It's quite possible that he is just as scorned and outcast by the DE "in" crowd as he was with the Hogwarts kids. Most of the DEs seem to come from the so-called upper-crust of the WW--you know, fine old families who all were related by marriage and other social alliances. Snape is not a part of this. He found he was just lonely and unappreciated in this bunch as anywhere. If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order.
Now the flaw in this is that those in Order don't seem to like Snape any better than the DEs might have, but at least DD (the guy in charge) has respect and trust in him.
Whew! Out of breath from gabbing so much.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 1:00 pm (#390 of 644)
Hey, Barb, I completely agree with your last statement. Although I think there was a moral component involved, I've no doubt he was just as much of an outsider geek even within the DE inner circle as he is an outsider anywhere else. Safety, a decent position, and opportunity to define himself apart from the crowd (whichever crowd) would be very appealing to Severus.
Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 2:32 pm (#391 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 3:33 pm
Madame Librarian - "If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order."
Actually, aside from whatever Snape's personality is or isn't, he really is brilliant. He's not just a teacher but a Potions Master, and he's accomplished in Occlumency and Legilimency, and being a spy certainly takes brains.
We really don't know how everyone in the Order views Snape. Some are obvious, but some haven't really said much about him. Moody (not Barty Crouch, Jr.), Tonks, Molly and Arthur, Shacklebolt, and I'm not sure who else haven't commented on him that I remember. If he's getting the respect he feels he deserves from being in the Order, I could see the appeal.
As Gina said, "Safety, a decent position, and opportunity to define himself apart from the crowd (whichever crowd) would be very appealing to Severus."
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 4:11 pm (#392 of 644)
I get the feeling that some of the OotP, at least, respects what Snape is doing with his undercover work--Tonks and probably Shacklebolt are young enough to have been students of his, and Remus Lupin has expressed admiration for Snape's skills in potions. However, I suspect that Snape just can't believe in this--his self-image is so distorted, and he's so suspicious of everyone's motives that he can't believe anyone would be willing to express, or even feel, honest admiration for something he's done without an ulterior motive that probably involves taking advantage of one Severus Snape.
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 4:26 pm (#393 of 644)
Linda, he's no babe in the woods. But do you think poor Severus is that so totally cynical? That would be very sad indeed.
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 4:27 pm (#394 of 644)
To quote Indiana Jones, "It's not the years, babe, it's the mileage."
zixyer - Oct 15, 2003 7:21 pm (#395 of 644)
You know, I was thinking, a lot of people seem to be assuming that Snape has been spying on the Death Eaters for the Order this time around. I mean, obviously the evidence is there: Dumbledore tells him that "you know what I must ask you to do" at the end of book 4, we learn that he was a spy for the Order before Voldemort's downfall, and during the Occlumency lesson, Snape tells Harry that it's his job to find out what Voldemort's doing.
We've got all this evidence that Snape's turned spy again, except it's never actually stated directly. This is making me think that Rowling is setting us up for a surprise and Snape is actually doing something else.
Grant the Great - Oct 15, 2003 7:31 pm (#396 of 644)
Sorry, but I don't agree with the whole "Snape switched sides to be on the winning side" theory. I think that if he did that, DD would have no reason to trust him, because he would switch back if it seemed that V. would win VWII.
I really like your idea that he is actually not a spy. It seems quite JKR-ish, especially when Snape openly admitted that his job was to find out out what the Dark Lord was up to (Legimency? nah, Snape isn't powerful enough for that).
Someone asked a long time ago what Snape did in his spare time. This thought really intrigued me, for some reason. I think that all his free time is up now, spying, teaching Potions, and tutoring in Occlumency, not to mention any unknown work for the Order. However, before Big V's return, I picture Snape doing some light reading, Hermione version (yes, you can hear him drop his "light" book in the towers when he's in the dungeons). This reading would be studying Potions and . . . more likely, the Dark Arts (yes, and how to defend against them).
OK, I'm done .
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 7:41 pm (#397 of 644)
Don't forget all the evenings he is presiding over detentions!
Snape does mention giving up his evenings to Harry. So, the concept of him having evenings to give up is at least on the table. I too suspect he did a "bit of light reading" Hermione-style. But who knows. Maybe he hung out with Dumbledore and played 10-pin bowling.
Rich - Oct 15, 2003 10:59 pm (#398 of 644)
zixyer, you said that their is no actual proof as to Snape's spying. Somewhere in OotP during an Occlumency lesson Harry says something along the lines of "I know what you do for the Order" (assuming he spies) and Snape gives him a kind of smirk. Was Harry correct in presuming he spies for the Order?
It's been said that Snape could've been outside the 'click' that is the DE. Do you think he could've been roped in to do some of the dirty work. They told him to do it and he obliged hoping that in return they would like him. He was so eager to impress them and prove himself that he forgot that what he was doing was wrong.
Then one day he woke up after seeing so many innocent people die at the hand of Voldemort and said "This isn't right." He switched sides because under all that vent up hatred and anger, he has a conscience.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 16, 2003 3:26 am (#399 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 4:26 am
I have to agree with Grant the Great. If Snape switched because he knew Voldermort was bound to fall, DD would know this (somehow)and wouldn't have offered him his current post at Hogwarts; I think the reason he switched came from himself and not from the possible outcome of any one else's actions.
In his spare time I see him (apart from doing his reading) playing Wizard chess. By himself, of course.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 16, 2003 5:34 am (#400 of 644)
Madam Librarian in post 389 stated that: "And, one last idea--Snape is the classic outsider: geeky, sullen, unkempt, rude, unable to laugh at himself, easily offended, etc. etc. It's quite possible that he is just as scorned and outcast by the DE "in" crowd as he was with the Hogwarts kids. Most of the DEs seem to come from the so-called upper-crust of the WW--you know, fine old families who all were related by marriage and other social alliances. Snape is not a part of this. He found he was just lonely and unappreciated in this bunch as anywhere. If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order."
Ok, here is my thought, is it possible that Snape is muggle born or half blood or even the son of two squibs? I mean there is no mention of his family background. I know you will tell me that he insulted Lily by calling her the Mud----d! But like Voldy he wanted to deny that part of his past. Just think about it.
I don't think this will happen. I don't think his decision has been DD over Voldie, but "good" over "evil".
LevTRox - Oct 12, 2003 12:57 pm (#352 of 644)
Hi, I'm new and my use of grammer on the NET is imaculate normally...got an A in English honest!
I find Snape very interesting for many resons and I think I've just trawled throuh this *whole* thread to check I won't be repeating things. Feel freed to tell me my ideas are rubbish.
I found that Snape shares his name (Severus that is) with a Roman emperor concidered exeptionally shrewd, ambitious...generally shareing many Slytherin like qualities (Niccolo Machiavelli thought extrememly highly of him). When the old emperor died Severus (the emperor not the fictional potions master) marches his army straight to Rome manages to get rid of his rivals to the imperial throne and is victorious, keeps the army happy and the civillians in line - without particularly indulging either of them and manages to die of natural cases (quite a feat for a Roman Emperor). As far as emperors go he did good. Maybe Snape is destined for great things?
Hope you didn't find the history lesson too dull.
Why did he join the Death Eaters? The Death Eaters seem to be (or were) a text book fascist organisation (although I have no idea if they hate the Left - because the Left seem to be dissapointingly inactive in the wizarding world, oppose homosexuality and abortion or if they were ever funded by big corperations). Fascist organisations typically appeal to the middle-classes ("pure-blood" wizards seem to fall into this category), the dissolusioned and youth; Snape falls smack bang into all of these categories and with his apparent deepseated ontological insecurity he is a prime target for their evil brainwashing. Remember Sirius talking about how a lot of wizards thinking Voldemort had the right idea when he started up (somewhere on OoP)? Well that suggests, to me, that joining an organisation like the Death Eaters wasn't going to take much *effort* initially. If there was popular feling towards Voldemort's ideas he's hardly going to have to go around in secret (prior to people finding out how far he's going to go that is) he'd probably hand out leaflets!
On the hair (my most frivalous thought) people can naturally have the sort of hair that gets very greasy quickly (not me I'm a bona fide Lily Evans type red head but I must stick up for the less lucky) it's not like he seems to have universal bad hygine, does anyone ever say Snape smells or had bad breath?! No I don't think so! And working in a dungeon full of cauldrons boiling up greusome dead bits of things can't be benificial to hair care!
I'm new so don't be too mean to me please
popkin - Oct 12, 2003 6:09 pm (#353 of 644)
Welcome to the forum, LevTRox. You had a lot of interesting thoughts - especially about the Roman emperor Severus. I hope you always have fun on this forum, and I think you'll find everyone is pretty nice.
Gina R Snape - Oct 12, 2003 7:45 pm (#354 of 644)
Welcome LevTRox. We may be discussing Snape, but that doesn't mean will treat you like Snape would!
I've heard the Emperor Severus theory before. Oh, but were it to come true... I really hope he doesn't wind up horribly tragic. My poor Sev has been through enough already.
Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 4:46 am (#355 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 5:48 am
I must say that I don't think Snape is some really negative guy.His attitude to Harry we can explain with his past.Harry's father treated him really bad,and he wants to revenge to James through Harry. Snape himself had a very depresing childhood.Nobody liked him,people laughed at him and all he wants to do now is revenge to people,back.It's a human's psychology. He already saved Harry which he didn't have to. J.K.Rowling has prooved she's unpredictible and maby she'll surprise us about Snape,too.Sorry if I'm not wright.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 13, 2003 7:40 am (#356 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 8:40 am
Yes, I think so too, I don't think the way you treat someone or a few people defines your personality. Like Sirius said, the world isn't divided into Good people and Death Eaters. Snape is a good person (I'm quite sure of this), he's just a bitter, unpleasant fellow.
And welcome LevTrox! I'm sure you'll like this place.
Iman Khan - Oct 13, 2003 7:52 am (#357 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 9:00 am
well we know that Snape is a gifted leglimens... and that skill allowed Snape to betray Voldemort and spy on him... but what if he used the same skill against DD? it is possible, and we still don't know why he left Voldemorts side... because he's definitely evil enough.. or is he? then again, DD said in the pensieve in GoF that Snape hard turned back before the fall of the dark side... why? we don't know.. I'm just hoping that JKR comes out with Book 6 already...
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 8:13 am (#358 of 644)
May I point out that if Dumbledore *knows* already Snape is a good occlumens/legimens he will have probably taken this into account and found some other way to be sure of Snape's loyalty to him.
Speaking as someone who's had their share of bullying at school I'm not surprised at Snape's attitude to Harry. Wouldn't you be a bit irritated if one day you met the kids of someone who bullied you and they were under the impression their bullying parent was a saint?!
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 8:53 am (#359 of 644)
Lev - "Wouldn't you be a bit irritated if one day you met the kids of someone who bullied you and they were under the impression their bullying parent was a saint?!"
A bit irritated? Possibly, but most adults wouldn't spend five years tormenting a child for what someone else did.
I can easily understand Snape's hatred for James and Sirius. I can understand Snape's attitude toward Harry regarding all of the rule breaking. What I cannot understand is how a grown man could punish a child over and over and over again for something that happened before the child was even born.
After four years of knowing Harry, Snape should realize that Harry doesn't have the arrogance James had, and Harry doesn't hex people just for fun, yet in the first Potions class of fifth year, Snape makes Harry's potion disappear and gives him a zero even though other students' potions were worse.
Until the Pensieve scene, Harry had really never done anything to Snape personally. Granted, there was the Shrieking Shack scene where Snape was knocked out, but Harry wasn't the only one involved in that.
Snape is the one with the power and he doesn't hesitate to use it to humiliate Harry at every possible opportunity. What recourse does Harry have when it's a professor? Harry is fairly helpless in his dealings with Snape while Snape knows he can do pretty much anything short of actual physical injuries.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:04 am (#360 of 644)
Okay I back down.
He's just not a well adjusted person.
I don't think Dumbledore could possible be in any doubt of Snape's loyalty. He is fully aware of Snape's past as a Death Eater and he's not going to knowingly let a murderous psychopath near children (although he doesn't have a good track record...). Okay Quirrel was too wet to be suspicious, Lockheart was only a Murderous Psychopath in exceptional circumstances (when his bestselling reputation was threatened), Lupin was only a Murderous Psychopath when being a wolf minus wolfsbane potion, Crouch Junior...was very convincingly Moody, Umbridge well DD wasn't willing to have her on the staff...I haven't got a leg to stand on with this "Dumbledore wouldn't let murderous psychopaths near children" idea have I?
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:13 am (#361 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 10:28 am
How do you know Snape is particularly mean?
Harry is just a school kid after all and all this stuff about Snape being unpleasant seems to come from the perspective of students or people who bullied him at school, he might just be a run of the mill unpleasantly strict teacher. Everyone has teachers they reckon have got it in for them and when they grow up they realise they were being a little unreasonable and they weren't really *that* bad.
Maybe he has a teaching style too authoritarian for Harry and Co to swallow? Harry, lovely and brave as he is, does seem to have a small problem with authority.
Maybe sarcasm is Snape's idea of a joke?
I don't think I'd like to be taught by him at all I'd probably HATE it in fact; but being a teacher does't mean you have to be an angel.
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 9:30 am (#362 of 644)
Lev - "Everyone has teachers they reckon have got it in for them and when they grow up they realise they were being a little unreasonable and they weren't really *that* bad."
I can see your point of view with Snape's treatment of most students, but Harry is the exception. Snape has "evanescoed" Harry's potions and given him zeros, he's knocked a perfectly good potion off his desk only to give Harry a zero, he threatens Harry with Veritaserum, he puts Harry in detention when other students have done worse things, and he singles Harry out for his most cutting comments.
He accuses Harry of stealing potion ingredients, yet when Barty Crouch, Jr. confesses that he's the one who stole the boomslang skin, Snape still treats Harry as if he's some form of disgusting bacteria. Granted, Dobby stole the gillyweed for Harry, but Harry didn't spend his fourth year breaking into Snape's office.
Being a strict teacher is one thing, but where Harry is concerned, Snape isn't just strict... he's vindictive.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 9:37 am (#363 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 10:38 am
I definately see your point where Harry is concerned. I will stop defending him on the "Teaching Harry" front I do think he's totally out of order.
How do you think Snape became a Death Eater Weeny Owl?
Gina R Snape - Oct 13, 2003 9:51 am (#364 of 644)
Harry breaks a lot of rules without punishment, and he does give Snape and others a lot of cheek. With precious few other interactions, Snape doesn't know Harry isn't as arrogant as his father.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 10:04 am (#365 of 644)
Ah you recognise Harry's small problem with authority too!
Do you think snape has a sense of humour? I've been thinking about this. Wizard humour doesn't seem, as such, to be more sophysticated then tricky practical jokes (i.e. irritating ten-year-old level). Sarcasm and satire seem sparce (just look at the Quibbler, I swear wizards need a decent newspaper!). Do you think Snape's vicious jibes at students could be intended as acid wit rather then intentional cruelty?
Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 10:27 am (#366 of 644)
I agree that Snape treats Harry awfull,but anyway I don't think he's capable to go back to Voldemort.Dumbledore belives to much in him.I think he vould never disapoint him.The only person he has to be thankful to for his freedom and his job is Dumbledor.And I just can't imagine Snape being so meen.And Dumbledore doesn't belive in wrong people.He always repeets that Snape is a good person. Who knows if he had his reason to treat Harry bad.He was already thought to be bad and found to be good,in Harry's first year. Maby there is some point in his treating Harry bad.
Gina R Snape - Oct 13, 2003 11:14 am (#367 of 644)
Oh, I find Snape to be a VERY funny person. I get the sense a lot of people don't get his extremely dry, sarcastic sense of humour. But, c'mon. When he stands behind the boys in CoS and says "Or maybe..." that was just too funny. Teasing and taunting McGonagall about the Quidditch/house cup. Taunting/teasing Hermione about her love life in the newspaper. I can't think of others right now. But they are done with humour. It's just that most children...and especially if you are the direct recipient of Snape's gaze and in fear...won't see the humour in the situation.
No, I say Snape would be a real treat to have at a party. Loosen him up, and that vicious tongue will have people rolling.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 13, 2003 11:23 am (#368 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 12:24 pm
I can see your point on Harry and "authority", but I don't agree 100%. Yes, Harry has broken many rules, but if he hadn't what would have happened with the Philosopher's stone? What about Ginny in book 2? The list goes on, you get the idea. Of course, Harry isn't a saint, but he has got other people's best interest at heart (Sirius's life, for one, in book 5....etc)most of the time he's breaking rules.
Snape should take that into account.
LevTRox - Oct 13, 2003 1:19 pm (#369 of 644)
I don't think "good intentions" hold much water with Snape around.
I think Harry gets away with murder at school and after the fifth book I'm surprised he isn't out on his ear (unless wizards don't concider endangering the lives of your fellow students a bad thing - what did the governers do? Get Neville, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, and Luna together and ask them "are you *really* good at keeping secrets from your parents?")
Anyway this is a Snape thread.
Snape for Minister of Magic! Etc...
What does Snape do in the summer holidays anyway?
Do you think he has a wife and kids hidden away somewhere who he spends some quality time with?
Or do you think he sits in a dark room trying to push back the bounds of potion making and filling out his fantastic new aplication form that will be SURE to land him the DADA position?
Any other suggestions?
Neville Longbottom - Oct 13, 2003 2:49 pm (#370 of 644)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 3:50 pm
Just a short off-topic comment: Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna all chose to accompany Harry to the DoM. It's not that he forced them. If they had died, it would have been at least to a big part, because of their own decisions (especially in Neville, Ginny and Luna's case).
Back on topic: With the exception of Tom Riddle, the only part were a student really endangered another one (as far as we know), without his agreement, is Sirius sending Snape to the werewolf. That's why I can absolutely understand Snape's loathing towards Sirius. I, too, would hate someone, who tried to kill me.
Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 7:19 pm (#371 of 644)
Lev:
Oh, please don't stop defending him! I'm enjoying this debate immensely.
How did Snape become a Death Eater? Oy, talk about a difficult question! We could theorize from now until the cows come home and never hit on what made him become one or go over to Dumbledore's side.
That's one of the things I truly hope JKR reveals in the sixth book... if not the complete story, then at least some of it.
Gina:
Yes, I have found some of Snape's comments funny, and that "Or maybe.." one just seriously tickled my funny bone. Before I had seen the movie, when I read that part, I just knew something would happen, and when Snape crept up behind them, I loved it.
Yes, Harry does have a problem with authority in some ways, but considering how he grew up, I'm surprised he's as well-mannered as he is. His interactions with Snape are ones I've read a few times just to try to catch a different slant on what's happening.
Rich - Oct 13, 2003 11:40 pm (#372 of 644)
I've always thought the reason Snape went over to Voldemort was jealousy. Though he did seriously loathe Sirius, James, Lupin and Pettigrew I think he wanted to be like them or as good as them. He wanted to prove himself and the only way he saw how was to do things that they couldn't (or wouldn't) which is dark magic.
He was an innocent boy who got caught up in the wrong crowd.
Were/Are his parents pureblood?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 14, 2003 3:28 am (#373 of 644)
Edited Oct 14, 2003 4:51 am
I think Snape's funny too (in his own way). If I were in Hogwarts though I don't think I'd laugh out loud (like I always do when Fred and George say something funny, they really crack me up), I think it would be more of an "inner chuckle". I mean he's so sarcastic, but very funny and dark, that always makes me laugh, but in Snape's case I'd try and keep the liking of that sense of humour to myself.
"How did Snape become a Death Eater?" (Weeny Owl). Well of course there's the influence of his fellow Slytherins. Of course not all Slytherins are bad (but all bad ones were or are Slytherins). But I think what really made him turn to the dark side "officialy" was that he came to the conclusion that the "good" crowd had nothing for him. Like saying "I've got nothing to loose anyway, so what the hell".
Gina, love your display pic!
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 14, 2003 5:47 am (#374 of 644)
Rose, is your picture of Gary Oldman? If it is, in that picture, I can almost see him more as Snape than Sirius, but that's just me. Just to cover my own behind...I love Alan as Snape.
Potion Master's Pet - Oct 14, 2003 6:37 am (#375 of 644)
Re: Sirius trying to get Snape killed.
Did Sirius ever get punished for this?
Neville Longbottom - Oct 14, 2003 6:43 am (#376 of 644)
It is never mentioned. Maybe Snape kept silent, because James saved his life? If Snape told everything or the teachers found out what happened, I am sure Sirius got a severe detention. He obviously wasn't expelled, but I think it's in character for Dumbledore, who believes in second chances, not to expel Sirius.
LevTRox - Oct 14, 2003 10:20 am (#377 of 644)
Weeny Owl: aww, I *want* to debate till the cows come home though!
Maybe Snape had a sudden political conversion?
I see it now...
there he was standing about in his Death Eater's cowl and he thought "What am I DOING?".
He immideately went out and:
joined the SWP
had a hammer and sickle tattooed on the other arm
hung a red flag up in his living room
and spent the rest of his like trying to explain to idiots how Stalin wasn't a real Communist...
That's why Dumbledore trusts Snape, who'd hate someone like Voldemort more than a Socialist?!
Weeny Owl - Oct 14, 2003 1:56 pm (#378 of 644)
Edited Oct 14, 2003 3:00 pm
Lev:
LOL, then moo to you!
I've long pondered the whys and wherefores of Snape's Death Eaterism and conversion to the good guys.
Why did he join the Death Eaters? It might have had something to do with The Marauders and the way they treated him... power would be an intoxicating thing to Snape. Perhaps feeling that he would never be put in a position like that again because the Wizarding World would come to know and fear Death Eaters would give him just the right nudge toward Voldie.
Why did he convert to the good guys? I've wondered if what Harry accidentally saw during that one Occlumency lesson (not when he went into the Pensieve) could have something to do with it. Harry saw what would appear to be Snape's childhood. It looked as if his father was being somewhat abusive toward his mother. I'm wondering if somehow Snape's mother was killed by Voldie or by a Death Eater, and if she was someone Snape loved, he would want to avenge her. He would know he didn't have the power to defeat Voldie alone or really to get much in the way of vengeance, but by going to Dumbledore, he would be able to do something at least.
This is all just supposition, and I'm sure there are much better theories out there, but those are a few thoughts as to why.
Pisceswicca - Oct 14, 2003 7:33 pm (#379 of 644)
That's a very good theory, Weeny Owl. I could see it happening this way, more or less. Snape was tormented as a child by the very people he probably wanted to be like. He was bullied. He was abused at home. He came from a dysfunctional family. He was made fun of by the "beautiful people" in school. Maybe one of those "beautiful people" was a girl he was fond of but whose love was unrequited. Maybe he wanted to be something or do something big - but he couldn't. He got to see life, or a SIDE of life, that many people don't get to see. What's "good" or "evil" is relative. His conception of it is not like many others'.
So maybe he discovers that the Dark Arts is something he's very good at. Maybe it's something that he'd needed to defend himself from the very things that hurt him. Maybe it gave him confidence. Or then again, maybe the "Dark" in the term "Dark Arts" is relative. There's nothing really "good" or "bad." Those concepts don't really exist. This are ambiguous. Nothing is really good or bad. They're both. Maybe that's the way he viewed the Dark Arts. Everybody with me?
So, here's Voldy, in the early days, promising things Snape's always wanted. He's a little "unconventional." He's a little "liberal", if you will. So what? The seemingly "good" people - Sirius, James and Co, didn't ever really do much good for him. They made him miserable. His father, his life at home...
And then maybe, when he thought that Voldy would be good for him, that he had a promising life - Voldy hurts him in a way he couldn't possibly imagine. Maybe he hurt his mother. Maybe he killed someone he loved dearly. So what really IS "good" and what really IS "evil"?
It's not that Snape can't differentiate what really IS "good" and what really is "evil." He knows it's ambiguous, but he knows what is "morally right" and "morally wrong." He then does something to prove to DD that he isn't a DE anymore. All that avenging the kind of life that he had - he sees that it is not the answer. But what IS it that he does?
Of course we'll find out - like I've said time and time again: Snape is probably one of the most important characters in the series, next to Harry. He's the antagonist in the story. We're going to find out some big things about Snape. And he's connected to Harry in more ways that we can imagine, or maybe no one yet thinks he's connected to Harry! But you'll see everyone...
Remarks? Comments?
Madam Pince - Oct 14, 2003 11:21 pm (#380 of 644)
Weeny Owl: "What I cannot understand is how a grown man could punish a child over and over and over again for something that happened before the child was even born."
I think it's because he never got the chance to punish the REAL offender, the person who persecuted him in the first place. If he'd had the chance to exact his revenge on James, he wouldn't be so tough on Harry. Festering bitterness from an injustice suffered is very hard to "outgrow," particularly if it has no other outlet. Harry is now his outlet, I think. Not that it's right, but...
LevTRox - Oct 14, 2003 11:24 pm (#381 of 644)
I think your right, maybe Snape does see "good" and "evil" as more of a subjective thing.
I mentioned this before but the Death Eaters is a fascist organisation, a real text-book one. Snape seems to come from the groups these most appeal to.
He might just join them for the sense of perpose and belonging thses things tend to provide, something he seems to have been deprived of before, rather than face up to his problems.
If Snape has a real moral core in there somewhere he might have left because of feelings of guilt? Nothing might have had to happen *specifically* he might have just, on his own terms, found that he felt what he was doing was morally wrong and left of his own accord?
I don't suppose this idea is exactly *dramatic* but Snape strikes me as more of a person who'd weigh things up before swapping sides rather than rushing in to avenge someone.
He might have discovered to fit in he didn't have to be friends with a bunch of psychotic murderers?
Rich - Oct 14, 2003 11:40 pm (#382 of 644)
On the subject of the ambiguity of good and evil. In one of the books it says something along the lines of "there is no such thing as good and evil there is only power and those strong enough to take it" (I'm not sure of the exact quote). But it pretty much sums up the fact that when Snape was a DE he didn't think what he was doing was evil. Does that make sense?
As for him turning his back on Voldemort. Do you think it could have happened after Lily was killed? What I'm trying to say is do you think Snape had feelings for Lily and it didn't matter to him who Voldemort killed but when Lily died that was the last straw? He finally woke up and realised that what Voldemort was and is doing is evil.
LevTRox - Oct 15, 2003 3:39 am (#383 of 644)
Rich13: Yeah that kind of makes sense, the good and evil thing that is
I don't know about Snape having feelings for Lily though...
Would you honestly call someone you had feelings for, and a quote, a "filthy little mudblood"? If Snape actually cared he probably wouldn't have said this. If he really felt compelled to say something along these lines to show James he wasn't a wimp (or some stupid blokey thing like that) "I don't need help from her!" would have sufficed. "Mudblood" is exactly a conversation-type word in the wizarding world.
I think you might want to check your chronology too Rich. Dumbledore says Snape changed sides a long time BEFORE, Voldemort fell, if Lily's death had been the last straw he would have changed sides AFTER Voldemort fell, see?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 15, 2003 5:19 am (#384 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 6:20 am
Yes Fawkesy Lady, that is Gary Oldman. And I agree with you, he looks more like Snape than Sirius. I would imagine Sirius like that when he was younger though, but not as a fully grown man, as he is now.
LevTRox, I've also thought of Snape leaving on his own accord, due to feelings of guilt. But then again, would that be enough for DD to know for sure that he's with the good guys? It doesn't seem like that to me. Maybe he went to the good guys because he felt it was the right thing to do, then he did something specific -something big and important- to prove himself to DD. Just an idea.
Also, is DD the only one that's 100% sure Snape is actually good? Wouldn't Sirius or Arthur or anyone else in the Order have suspected Snape before?
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 6:00 am (#385 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 7:11 am
As to why/how Snape became a DE, I found Barty Crouch JR's rant about the similarities between Voldy and himself enlightening--it sounded almost as if he was, in part, repeating something Voldy had said to him--winning the younger Barty over by sympathizing with him and pointing out what they had in common--fathers they disliked, and so on. I can see him employing the same methods on Snape, as well as possible blandishments by Lucius and Bellatrix, who, in their own day, must have been parts of 'cool' factions at school, based on looks, family social status, and strength of personality.
I also wonder is Snape's early edge in the Dark Arts might have come from an exposure to this at home--perhaps his father was a practitioner in a big way. It's also possible that he was studying up on those curses in order to get even with his father--revenge against an abusive parent, especially a father, is a common issue with abused children, particularly with boys, and even more so when they see their mothers abused as well. [Mistreatment of his mother would have been yet another hook for Voldy to sink into Snape--after, his died when she was abandoned]. Extending the mother issue [and I think that's reasonable--love, from mothers and for mothers, is a big thing in JKR's writing, in case you hadn't noticed! ] to Snape's turn away from the DEs, it could be because his mother found out, and made it plain she wasn't happy about this. It could even have been a dying wish of hers--and I can see that having even more impact in the WW world than it does among us. She wouldn't have to be killed by Voldy and/or DEs to make this a big thing, either.
As far as Snape calling Lily names--it's been noted before that he was in a horribly embarrassing situation, and not inclined to appreciate being seen by her, or anyone else, in that position, but also to be embarrassed at the thought he needed to be rescues by a girl. Resorting to name-calling seems pretty natural, given his general misanthropy, in addition to his youthful gaucheness at that point in time. Not admirable, certainly, but in character. This wouldn't keep him from potentially being fascinated by her--she may have been one of the very first muggle-born people he'd ever met in his life--you all may recall the extent to which even Ron found the Muggle-borns in their first year unusual--and he'd been hearing about Muggles from his father all his life. The sheer 'exotic' [to him] nature of Lily's background may have made her fascinating to him--and her looks wouldn't have hurt, either. Also, her 'stick up for the underdog' attitude [shades of Hermione!] seems atypical of the WW, which doesn't always find exploiting the weaker to be bad, in and of itself. Given Snape's difficulty dealing normally with others, and, er, complex, emotional life, I don't think that at the age of fifteen or sixteen he'd have managed to find a more appropriate way to express an interest in a girl. It's a tough age, and it's worse for some than others--I think Snape was a permanent resident in adolescent hell--he's still not free of it altogether!
Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 8:35 am (#386 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 9:45 am
Interesting ideas, everyone. I'll have to think about them for a bit.
fidelio: I think this is a superb description of Snape: I think Snape was a permanent resident in adolescent hell--he's still not free of it altogether!
In the chapter, "Christmas on the Closed Ward," Phineas Nigellus is talking to Harry and says, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
I'm wondering if that's a clue about Snape. He would be saving his own neck by siding with Dumbledore, even though there's a risk involved. Maybe in the last two books when push comes to shove, if it's a choice between Snape and someone else, Snape will choose to save himself.
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 9:10 am (#387 of 644)
Saving himself is a distinct possibility. But I think he's sticking his head out so far right now with the double life (spying inside and keeping a cover with the students) that he's already putting his life in danger every single day. The only thing I can imagine is that it just gets to be too much for the poor guy after all these years.
Madam Pince - Oct 15, 2003 11:03 am (#388 of 644)
Very nice, fidelio -- I like your ideas about Crouch, Jr. and also about Snape's mother's dying wish. I feel certain that he was "hooked" by Voldemort by something to do with the memory that seemed to show us an abusive father. And it would be very JKR-ish to have his mother's opinion become a major factor in his life decisions.
I am convinced that, in the end, our dear Severus is going to "pass thru the veil" by saving someone else, however. Good catch about Phineas' comment, but I'm also thinking of the Sorting Hat and the idea that the houses need to re-unite. Perhaps Snape's sacrifice (whatever it turns out to be) will break the Slytherin mold and bring the houses together again.
Madame Librarian - Oct 15, 2003 12:50 pm (#389 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 1:52 pm
All kinds of wonderful ideas here, folks. Lots to ponder.
The "save our own necks" comment stood out to me, too. It's just possible, granted a little simplistic, that at some point, Snape, who is no dummy, assessed the eventual outcome of the conflict, and decided that V., in the long run, would not win. That was the factor that sent Snape back to the good guys. Of course, JKR could make this a more elaborate process, but at the core, this would be the motivation.
Another thought--maybe Snape was on to the fact that V. was Muggle-born, and simply could not take him a a true heir of anything. Again, he could see V.'s little empire falling apart at some point, and all kinds of internal squabbling would just further destory its temporary hold on the WW.
And, one last idea--Snape is the classic outsider: geeky, sullen, unkempt, rude, unable to laugh at himself, easily offended, etc. etc. It's quite possible that he is just as scorned and outcast by the DE "in" crowd as he was with the Hogwarts kids. Most of the DEs seem to come from the so-called upper-crust of the WW--you know, fine old families who all were related by marriage and other social alliances. Snape is not a part of this. He found he was just lonely and unappreciated in this bunch as anywhere. If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order.
Now the flaw in this is that those in Order don't seem to like Snape any better than the DEs might have, but at least DD (the guy in charge) has respect and trust in him.
Whew! Out of breath from gabbing so much.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 1:00 pm (#390 of 644)
Hey, Barb, I completely agree with your last statement. Although I think there was a moral component involved, I've no doubt he was just as much of an outsider geek even within the DE inner circle as he is an outsider anywhere else. Safety, a decent position, and opportunity to define himself apart from the crowd (whichever crowd) would be very appealing to Severus.
Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 2:32 pm (#391 of 644)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 3:33 pm
Madame Librarian - "If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order."
Actually, aside from whatever Snape's personality is or isn't, he really is brilliant. He's not just a teacher but a Potions Master, and he's accomplished in Occlumency and Legilimency, and being a spy certainly takes brains.
We really don't know how everyone in the Order views Snape. Some are obvious, but some haven't really said much about him. Moody (not Barty Crouch, Jr.), Tonks, Molly and Arthur, Shacklebolt, and I'm not sure who else haven't commented on him that I remember. If he's getting the respect he feels he deserves from being in the Order, I could see the appeal.
As Gina said, "Safety, a decent position, and opportunity to define himself apart from the crowd (whichever crowd) would be very appealing to Severus."
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 4:11 pm (#392 of 644)
I get the feeling that some of the OotP, at least, respects what Snape is doing with his undercover work--Tonks and probably Shacklebolt are young enough to have been students of his, and Remus Lupin has expressed admiration for Snape's skills in potions. However, I suspect that Snape just can't believe in this--his self-image is so distorted, and he's so suspicious of everyone's motives that he can't believe anyone would be willing to express, or even feel, honest admiration for something he's done without an ulterior motive that probably involves taking advantage of one Severus Snape.
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 4:26 pm (#393 of 644)
Linda, he's no babe in the woods. But do you think poor Severus is that so totally cynical? That would be very sad indeed.
fidelio - Oct 15, 2003 4:27 pm (#394 of 644)
To quote Indiana Jones, "It's not the years, babe, it's the mileage."
zixyer - Oct 15, 2003 7:21 pm (#395 of 644)
You know, I was thinking, a lot of people seem to be assuming that Snape has been spying on the Death Eaters for the Order this time around. I mean, obviously the evidence is there: Dumbledore tells him that "you know what I must ask you to do" at the end of book 4, we learn that he was a spy for the Order before Voldemort's downfall, and during the Occlumency lesson, Snape tells Harry that it's his job to find out what Voldemort's doing.
We've got all this evidence that Snape's turned spy again, except it's never actually stated directly. This is making me think that Rowling is setting us up for a surprise and Snape is actually doing something else.
Grant the Great - Oct 15, 2003 7:31 pm (#396 of 644)
Sorry, but I don't agree with the whole "Snape switched sides to be on the winning side" theory. I think that if he did that, DD would have no reason to trust him, because he would switch back if it seemed that V. would win VWII.
I really like your idea that he is actually not a spy. It seems quite JKR-ish, especially when Snape openly admitted that his job was to find out out what the Dark Lord was up to (Legimency? nah, Snape isn't powerful enough for that).
Someone asked a long time ago what Snape did in his spare time. This thought really intrigued me, for some reason. I think that all his free time is up now, spying, teaching Potions, and tutoring in Occlumency, not to mention any unknown work for the Order. However, before Big V's return, I picture Snape doing some light reading, Hermione version (yes, you can hear him drop his "light" book in the towers when he's in the dungeons). This reading would be studying Potions and . . . more likely, the Dark Arts (yes, and how to defend against them).
OK, I'm done .
Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 7:41 pm (#397 of 644)
Don't forget all the evenings he is presiding over detentions!
Snape does mention giving up his evenings to Harry. So, the concept of him having evenings to give up is at least on the table. I too suspect he did a "bit of light reading" Hermione-style. But who knows. Maybe he hung out with Dumbledore and played 10-pin bowling.
Rich - Oct 15, 2003 10:59 pm (#398 of 644)
zixyer, you said that their is no actual proof as to Snape's spying. Somewhere in OotP during an Occlumency lesson Harry says something along the lines of "I know what you do for the Order" (assuming he spies) and Snape gives him a kind of smirk. Was Harry correct in presuming he spies for the Order?
It's been said that Snape could've been outside the 'click' that is the DE. Do you think he could've been roped in to do some of the dirty work. They told him to do it and he obliged hoping that in return they would like him. He was so eager to impress them and prove himself that he forgot that what he was doing was wrong.
Then one day he woke up after seeing so many innocent people die at the hand of Voldemort and said "This isn't right." He switched sides because under all that vent up hatred and anger, he has a conscience.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 16, 2003 3:26 am (#399 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 4:26 am
I have to agree with Grant the Great. If Snape switched because he knew Voldermort was bound to fall, DD would know this (somehow)and wouldn't have offered him his current post at Hogwarts; I think the reason he switched came from himself and not from the possible outcome of any one else's actions.
In his spare time I see him (apart from doing his reading) playing Wizard chess. By himself, of course.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 16, 2003 5:34 am (#400 of 644)
Madam Librarian in post 389 stated that: "And, one last idea--Snape is the classic outsider: geeky, sullen, unkempt, rude, unable to laugh at himself, easily offended, etc. etc. It's quite possible that he is just as scorned and outcast by the DE "in" crowd as he was with the Hogwarts kids. Most of the DEs seem to come from the so-called upper-crust of the WW--you know, fine old families who all were related by marriage and other social alliances. Snape is not a part of this. He found he was just lonely and unappreciated in this bunch as anywhere. If he also looked around and said to himself, "These idiots are so blinded by V. and his promises of power, they can no longer think for themselves. They can no longer recognize true intelligence. They'll never understand how brilliant I am," he'd be willing to listen to DD's offer of a respected position and an important role in the Order."
Ok, here is my thought, is it possible that Snape is muggle born or half blood or even the son of two squibs? I mean there is no mention of his family background. I know you will tell me that he insulted Lily by calling her the Mud----d! But like Voldy he wanted to deny that part of his past. Just think about it.
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Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 16, 2003 7:27 am (#401 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 8:28 am
Hahahaha!, Fawkesy Lady, that "Mud----d" thing was great!, it cracked me up.
I had never thought about Snape being muggle born or anything of the sort. And I thought to myself "aren't all Slytherin's pure-blood?", then I remembered that the Sorting Hat had seriously considered putting Harry, who's half muggle, in Slytherin.
I'll have to think about Snape though. Hasn't there been any hint, ever? I'm trying to remember any. But hey, that's Snape, very mysterious. I don't think it's impossible though, but at the same time I don't find it likely. I don't know why, it's just a hunch.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 7:55 am (#402 of 644)
No, there has never been any hint of his heritage at all, and we never saw even a glimpse of anything until OoP. I suspect he is a pureblood.
What's interesting is, not only has he made comments about blood status before, or treated kids any differently because of their blood status, but prior to OoP he never even said the word "muggle" except when reading the Daily Prophet article aloud in CoS about the flying Ford Anglia, let alone "mudblood" or "squib" etc. He only seems to pick on Harry and Neville (which I more and more think Neville has to do with the prophecy and what happened to his parents). And, of course, he shows favouritism to his own house. But being a Slytherin, he naturally would not see anything wrong with that.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 16, 2003 8:12 am (#403 of 644)
Thanks Rose!
I can picture Snape's parents jealous of his talent, perhaps because they don't have it themselves? Being abusive calling him names, etc.
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 8:15 am (#404 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 9:16 am
I would be really interested in Snape's family history as well, especially after what Harry saw during his Occlumency lessons. It doesn't seem to me like his childhood was so peachy, which would probably explain a lot about his attitudes.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 8:37 am (#405 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 9:49 am
While I'm still not convinced that Snape is on the side of the angels, Gina and company are making me view some of Snape's behavior in a different way.
I reread the first Occlumency lesson and saw the part about Harry controlling his emotions in a different light. Here's the paragraph:
"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hears proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"
The first few times I read that, I thought Snape was just being his usual bullying self, but now I wonder... is he talking about Harry or himself? Is his anger with Harry not trying hard enough more fear of what could happen to Harry than just Snape's ordinary insults and taunting. Could he <gasp!> actually care about Harry's overall welfare? Not that he actually likes the kid, of course, but maybe he doesn't want to see anyone at all fall prey to Voldie the way he did?
Snape certainly doesn't give away anything about his past, but is he, perhaps, talking about his own experiences with Voldie penetrating his mind and not just what's happening with Harry?
Snape definitely has problems controlling some of his emotions, and there are sad memories he seems to wallow in, but for the most part, it seems that he can control himself.
Snape learned Occlumency for a reason and maybe it wasn't just so he could be an effective spy but so he could keep Voldie from manipulating him the way Harry's being manipulated. I wonder if Dumbledore taught him Occlumency, and from that learned, at least somewhat, why Snape can be trusted.
He may have felt betrayed when Harry went into the Pensieve, not just because of what Harry saw, but because after everything he's done to try to keep Harry from being another victim of Voldie's, Harry did something so utterly reprehensible that it reminded him of what he went through learning Occlumency and why he needed to learn it to begin with.
popkin - Oct 16, 2003 9:04 am (#406 of 644)
Edited by Oct 16, 2003 10:05 am
Weeny Owl, those were some of the most interesting insights into Snape's character I've read in a while. It makes sense that Dumbledore would have taught Snape occlumency so that he could turn away from LV without exposing himself. I can see Snape coming to Dumbledore, begging for a second chance, for clemency and sanctuary - and Dumbledore knowing that the only way for Snape to defy LV and live would be to pretend he was still in LV's service.
And, how horrid of Harry to do to Snape what he has been able to keep LV from doing for the past 15 years or more.
Peregrine [/b]- Oct 16, 2003 9:11 am (#407 of 644)
Phew! It took me six hours to read through this entire thread, but I finally did it (that?s one good way to kill an afternoon).
Weeny Owl, I can totally see Snape referring to himself in that passage. It almost sounds like Snape made some mistake and is chastising himself for it. Maybe it was a mistake that he just made that hasn?t been found out yet (as opposed to something he did the first time around).
Regarding his family?let?s say for the sake of argument that his parents were Muggles. Maybe they feared magic as much as the Dursleys do and treated Snape in the same manner as the Dursleys treat Harry.
And Rose Marie, maybe Snape doesn?t have to play chess by himself. Maybe he has a pen pal--er, quill pal on the other side of the world that he plays correspondence chess with.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 9:50 am (#408 of 644)
Beautiful, Weeny Owl!
It never occurred to me that Dumbledore taught Snape Occlumency. I always suspected Snape learned it much earlier, to protect himself from his father. But your idea has a lot of merit, and works to bring Snape and Dumbledore even closer together. Intriguing.
Wendy Snelgrove - Oct 16, 2003 10:03 am (#409 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 11:06 am
I just read/skimmed through the last 200 or so posts on this thread. Fascinating reading. Snape is perhaps the most interesting character.
A few thoughts:
Dumbledore using his Legilemens ability to assure himself Snape is onside
This was mentioned a large number of posts ago. I don't see how this ability could possibly work this way. Even if Snape's mind was totally penetrable by Dumbledore, Dumbledore would still not have 100% assurance of what Snape was thinking. Why? Because Snape is unlikely to be 100% sure of what he is thinking. It is possible that Snape was (I am speaking of the moment in time when he chose to leave the Death Eaters and join Dumbledore) sure in his mind, if he were lying to Dumbledore and only intending to spy. But if he was genuinely ready to come over, he must have felt uncertainties.
The human psyche doesn't easily come to 100% certain positions on these kinds of issues. Snape didn't go from one day being 100% convinced that Voldemort was right to being 100% convinced that Voldemort was wrong (although he may be at that place now). Uncertainties slowly creep into your mind. "Gee, did he really need to kill that guy just because he didn't like his tie". "He used crucio on Jackson because Jackson was 5 minutes late, even though he had a good reason and has always been loyal." "Those Phoenix guys are nasty to me but Longbottom was always a decent fellow". "I am afraid of what Voldemort might do to me, but I want my mother to be proud of me".
Who knows at what point these kinds of thoughts congealed sufficiently for Snape to push past his fears and/or earlier beliefs that Voldemort was right and decide to leave. The point is that he would likely have left while still being somewhat uncertain. So if Dumbledore had probed his mind, he would have seen some doubts and uncertainties mixed in with some convictions that Voldemort was wrong.
I am confident that Snape is now 100% certain that Voldemort is and was wrong. I just think it often takes time to get there. The example that springs to my mind is like leaving a relationship that is not good but not terrible either. Things get progressively worse until, at the moment of deciding to go, the bad overwhelms the good. (And if you are like me, you hang in even longer, not wanting to leave just because you are in a tough patch). So when you leave, these might be the thoughts in your mind: I love her, we don't get along, we repeat the same arguments, I will be lonely, we have a great house, we can never seem to agree about money, I will miss her family and she will miss mine etc. etc. (It's a mixed bag). Then later, time usually takes you to a place of more certainty: I love her as a friend, its good to go to dinner sometimes, we just didn't do well as partners, we are both better off this way, I am truly in a happy relationship with my new love and so is she, etc. etc.
Anyway, enough rambling about that - I think the point is made.
Snape's treatment of Harry
I haven't read the thread regarding Snape and the Prophecy yet, and I apologize if this ground has been covered, but I don't think Snape knows the Prophecy. And therefore, I think he just thinks Harry is a lucky guy, nothing special. He got saved by his mother's love, not anything about him. He comes to the school and is admired and special, but doesn't deserve it. He's got all kinds of people willing to let him get away with breaking the rules. He needs protecting perhaps more than other kids, but he seems to disregard other people's efforts, etc. etc.
Snape's feelings about Harry can be entirely consistent with being against Voldemort I think. He is a fairly damaged person (mean, sarcastic, lonely, angry) on the right side. Harry is a thorn in his side in his own right (without deserving it, from Snape's point of view) and a reminder of his tormenting father.
Snape as the next DADA teacher
I know this could (should?) go in the post for this topic specifically, but it has been referenced here as well. I don't think Snape will be the next DADA teacher, for reasons that are completely external to the plot/Wizarding World:
- 5 of 5 DADA teachers have been new to the stories the year they appeared
- 5 of 5 DADA teachers have ceased to be teachers after that year
I think JKR will keep up this little pattern because it is part of the amusing background. So no Snape, no Bill, no Fleur, no Molly etc. Someone we've not yet met, in my humble opinion.
Thanks for letting me post.
LevTRox - Oct 16, 2003 11:56 am (#410 of 644)
I agree Wendy, I think the pattern may break up...
Maybe the next DADA teacher will be that "Quill Pal" of Snape's being talked about earlier? Either that or an old mate of Lily's...or perhaps they'll be BOTH?! It would be quite cool/interesting/strange to meet someone who actually LIKED Snape. Do you think he'd perk up about if he had a kindred spirit about the place?
Wondering how Snape spends his free time?
You know how teachers spend their evnings comrades? WORKING! The governments of the world should cut them a LOT of slack because even though they get a lot of holidays their workload is huge (In Britain at least) and they have a tough job to contend with.
I come from a family of teachers so I have the deepest sympathy with them. From obsevations I have found the average teacher's evening is spent doing the following:
Marking homework
Marking Essays (much worse than run of the mill homwork)
Paniking about all the other work yet to be marked and will be handed in the next day
Planning lessons
Complaing, *without* mentioning names of hooligan children, about work
Stomping about because your rotten kids are sitting around in front of the telly enjoing themselves whilst you've done a hard day's work AND THEY HAVEN'T EVEN DONE THE DISHES!
Moaning about getting into London
Sitting on the sofa
Watching telly/reading
(This is what the teachers *I* know do)
If doing something else when they NEED TO BE WORKING they generally:
Act very grumpilly and cease to communicate
Look bored out of their minds
Be excessivly nice about "X" and waste more time then necessary so as to not appear that you want to be working rather than doing the lovely activity that is "X"
Snape's probably annoyed because he had the Fourth-Year Hufflepuff's essays to mark when he'd been made to give Harry Occlumnency lesons lessons! Perfectly normal!
Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 12:30 pm (#411 of 644)
Hello everyone.
I really enjoyed your post Wendy, but I'm curious about a couple of points. First, while its true that each DADA teacher only lasts one year, its also true that Snape will only take those who have achieved outstanding OWLs in Potions into his NEWT level Potions class. I can't see how Harry could have an outstanding OWL in Potions, exceeds expectations perhaps, but not outstanding. It seems likely to me that Harry will be in a NEWTs Potions class given his desire to pursue (possibly) a career as an Auror so he would have to have a teacher other than Snape. I don't think there will be two Potions teachers and the school does need a DADA teacher. Snape as Harry's DADA teacher would be even more interesting than Snape as his Potions teacher. And he can't reject Harry from his DADA class since Harry undoubtably achieved an outstanding OWL in that subject. I don't think that Snape will be teaching DADA in Harry's seventh year, I think that that will be Dumbledore.
Second, I wonder why Dumbledore would be better able to determine Snape's loyalties than Voldemort would. After all, Voldemort can literally smell a lie. And Dumbledore has admitted that he underestimated how much Snape's bitterness toward Harry's father would affect his ability to teach Harry Occulamency (sp?). Could he also be mistaken about Snape's loyalties? Snape did save Harry's life, but perhaps Harry isn't Snape's target, maybe his target is Dumbledore himself. Saving Harry would have been a way to further instill trust in Dumbledore.
Snape confronted Quirrel about his loyalties in book 1. Wouldn't that confrontation have shown Voldemort what Snape's loyalties really were? Its difficult to see how Voldemort could trust Snape.
LevTRox - Oct 16, 2003 12:48 pm (#412 of 644)
Maybe Harry will re-sit Potions in his 6th year get an "O"? Maybe Madam Hooch handles students re-sitting exams between Quiddich matches? - a bit off thread here...
Then Harry might, in the 7th year, study with the 6th year and get the WW equivalent of an A/S-Level in Potions. Harry re-sitting with Snape that could be a laugh (for us!) Think Snape takes re-sit students or not?
Pisceswicca - Oct 16, 2003 2:02 pm (#413 of 644)
oH, my gosh!! I've been absent from reading in the Forum for a day or two, and so many great and interesting theories have been discussed! I wouldn't even know where to begin! First of all, props to Mdme. Librarian, and Pince for your very interesting "alternate" views. I also want to say "hooray" to Weeny Owl, Grant the Great, and fidelio for your posts. My trains of thoughts coincide with yours. I also kike Wendy Snelgrove's last posts. These past 200-something posts have been fascinating!
I also hadn't thought of where Snape couldn've learned Occlumency. I didn't assume anything. I think I thought he'd already been accomplished in it way before he decided to turn to DD. DD teaching him absolutely MUST have brought them closer together.
Regarding Snape's reasons for switching to DD's side - all of the reasons I've read so far have weight. I tend towards him switching on his own. The whole "mother's death wish" and all of that was great! It wouln't have to necesarily have been THAT in particular, but something along the lines of. Great theory.
I also found it interesting, that in a few hundred posts ago, it mentions that Snape actually does NOT know about the Prophesy. And that that's the reason why he thinks that Harry isn't at all that special, and that that's why he's so keen on expelling Harry. But he DOES know that Voldy wants to kill him, so what gives?
About Snape becoming a DE in the first place, I'm pretty sure that Voldy DID use the "sympathetic" approach. I'd forgotten about Barty Crouch Jr.'s comments about how he and Voldy were so alike. I don't know what approaches he used on OTHER sorts of people, but I think that in Snape's case, telling him how much alike they are and how they'd both come from Muggle families who'd disappointed them, and how they both hated they're fathers, and how "maybe we can do this together" could have appealed to Snape. The sympathetic approach is very effective on many, many people. On most people I'd think.
And like Madame Librarian says, I also think that Snape is most likely going to die to save someone's life. Maybe it's Harry's. Maybe it's DD's. If it isn't Harry than it's going to be somebody Harry loves very, very, very much.
One thing I find curious is that if Snape is such a good Leglimens and Occlumens, then wouldn't he have used those skills in earlier books? To get into Harry's mind? Why threaten him with Veriseratum? Why weren't DD's and Snape's skills used to avoid or prevent or to handle situations in the previous books?
Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 2:07 pm (#414 of 644)
Pisceswicca--Thanks for your kudos, but one correction--it wasn't I who made the Snape will die prediction. I have taken a self-imposed oath to not predict any character's death because I can see sooo many arguments for and against any particular prediction. Rather than use up the limited amount of "think" power in my brain, I'll leave that issue to JKR.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 4:23 pm (#415 of 644)
Ovate, the thread "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" Professor Kosh "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 10/8/03 6:26pm has a discussion about your question about Quirrell.
I don't want to think about Snape dying. I know it's possible. But I just don't want to think about it. I do think, though, that JKR has set him up to be pivotal, and that our minds will be blown away by what he will do, and we will learn a lot more about his past.
As for the Snape-Voldemort break-up. I don't see it like a romantic break-up decision-wise. I see it as more of trying to leave a career. Yes, when one makes the decision to leave something significant there are lingering doubts. But usually most of those doubts get played out (people get tired of a never-changing pattern of escalating unpleasantness of some sort) or there is a "big bang" event that causes a person to make up their mind. In the case of Snape, I think he had a series of escalating doubts, but the "big bang" was the prophecy and something else unknown to us as of yet. But I do believe there was a moral component and that he didn't look back once his mind was made up.
Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 4:38 pm (#416 of 644)
Thanks for the heads up Gina.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 7:30 pm (#417 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 8:37 pm
I don't think Harry will do his exams over, but he's going to have Snape as a teacher one way or the other. If he surprises himself and everyone else and gets an Outstanding in his Potions O.W.L., then that's that. If Snape is DADA teacher, which I doubt, then Harry still has a class with Snape.
If Harry doesn't get an Outstanding Potions O.W.L. and Snape still teaches Potions, what could happen is that since Professor McGonagall said she'd help Harry become an Auror, then I think she'll step in somehow.
I think Draco didn't do that well in his Transfigurations O.W.L., so I could see McGonagall saying something to Snape about how she would be willing to take Draco if he'd be willing to take Harry.
Harry was thinking about the written part of the Potions O.W.L. being difficult, but he didn't say it was impossible. He thought he'd done fairly well with the practical portion. I think he'll either get an Outstanding or be so close that, maybe with pressure from Dumbledore, Snape takes him anyway.
As for using Veritaserum instead of Legilimency, Snape said that the mind wasn't a book to be read at leisure (or something to that effect), and part of what makes a good Legilimens is correctly interpreting what is seen. Veritaserum is a way of making the person actually tell the truth as he/she sees it... it may not be correct, but it's what the person actually thinks is the truth. It wouldn't really require any analyzing.
S.E. Jones - Oct 16, 2003 9:08 pm (#418 of 644)
Popkin: And, how horrid of Harry to do to Snape what he has been able to keep LV from doing for the past 15 years or more.
Wow, I'm so loving this discussion, it's one of the best this forum has seen in a while. It was worth every hour it took to completely catch up on it after weeks of constant tests and studying. Okay, we were discussing why Snape joined the DEs and why he left and why he used the pensieve during the Occulemency lessons and something about popkin's quote (above) caught my attention. What if Snape put those particular memories in the pensieve, not to keep Harry himself from seeing them, but to prevent Voldie from somehow seeing them, via Harry, and using them against him. I think Snape realizes that he has a lasting resentment towards James and these memories (which drudge up so much of that resentment and anger on their own) could be easily twisted and manipulated to make Snape do something against Harry that would be in Voldemort's favor, even if he's not entirely aware of it or not entirely willing (strong emotions can do strange things to us sometimes). Maybe it was the fear of what Voldy could do with that kind of a weapon that lead to him putting them into the pensieve, and Harry invading the pensieve the way he did was sort of rendering that protection null and void. Maybe that's why Snape lost it the way he did, he knew Harry could have just given the Dark Lord something big to work with..... Comments?......
Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense, it's after midnight here and I've been pretty sleep deprived for a while now....
Hem Hem - Oct 16, 2003 9:12 pm (#419 of 644)
That's a really intruiging possibility, Sarah...the premise makes a lot of sense. I just can't figure out why Snape would hide that particular memory from Voldemort.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 9:26 pm (#420 of 644)
Oh, Sarah, how positively brilliant! Snape was totally unnerved when Harry actually said "Voldemort," and maybe that works in with what you've said... mentioning Voldie's name is nearly the same as calling him, and if Harry now has memories of Snape's that Voldie could use against Snape, then no wonder he'd be just a tad disgruntled. It would almost be like hanging a neon sign over Hogwarts asking Voldie snoop in Harry's mind.
Hem Hem, it could be that it wasn't that memory in and of itself but rather what else Harry might have seen had Snape not returned when he did.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 17, 2003 4:50 am (#421 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 6:04 am
I haven't been here for about 24 hours and I've had lots to catch up on (20 posts is a lot for me, especially when it comes to Snape). I hope my thoughts aren't jumbled up now.
Weeny Owl, I think you came up with a very good idea, about McGonagall taking Draco if Snape took Harry. It seems very possible. But I can't shake off the feeling that it will be DD who tells Snape to take Harry again. I mean let's see, Snape could think "now why should I do that, just because he wants to become an auror? Why should I care about what career he wants to pursue? Why should he always be the 'priviliged' one?" (of course, we know that it isn't exactly the prilivage thing that would get to him, because he's treated Draco and co.better than the rest- it's just that he doesn't like Harry and that's that). But becoming an Auror is the only thing that Harry has thought about doing after finishing his studies at Hogwarts; not only that, but it would help him alot in his mission to finnish Voldie off (some think Snape doesn't know about the prophecy, others think he does know about it....either way, he'll find out, if he doesn't know about it already, soon). Snape will have to give in, whether (with or withought the "h" after the "w"???) he likes it or not.
Wendy, about your theory as of why Snape won't become the next DADA teacher, I don't know... I mean, I don't see Snape as the next DADA teacher either, but just because "5 of 5 DADA teachers have been new to the stories the year they appeared" and "5 of 5 DADA teachers have ceased to be teachers after that year", as you stated in post #409, doesn't mean the pattern won't break. Just a possibility. And by the way, I find your opinions of Snape and his "gradual certainty that he was doing the right thing" very interesting indeed. And I agree with you there 100%.
I can't remember who suggested DD becoming the next DADA teacher; I think it's an excellent idea, but I think if it were to happen, we'll see it in book 7.
Sarah "What if Snape put those particular memories in the pensieve, not to keep Harry himself from seeing them, but to prevent Voldie from somehow seeing them, via Harry, and using them against him". Bravo! I love it.
One last thing (I promise I'm almost done!): Weeny Owl "[...]Snape was totally unnerved when Harry actually said "Voldemort," and maybe that works in with what you've said... mentioning Voldie's name is nearly the same as calling him, and if Harry now has memories of Snape's that Voldie could use against Snape, then no wonder he'd be just a tad disgruntled".
Then how would this explain Bellatrix's reaction when Harry said "Voldermort"?
Thank you for having made it till here! I'll be gone for the weekend (I'll do my best and be back before Sunday).... um, try not to get too carried away with so many posts,hee... kidding (well sort of).
Have a nice weekend!
Lisaren - Oct 17, 2003 6:27 am (#422 of 644)
Snape is a fascinating and integral part of the Harry Potter series. His relationship with Harry has provided endless speculation and entertainment for everyone. I do not believe he is evil and working with Voldemort to bring about the rise of the Dark Lord. I also do not believe he is a tragic misunderstood man who deserves our sympathy. I believe he is warped, twisted, suspicious, mean, childish, bitter, angry and any other equivalent trait. He is a flawed human who strikes chords with almost all of us in some way, just to an extreme. How many of us don?t have memories from the past that shape our reactions to certain situations? Snape is just twisted to the degree that every one of his current actions is shaped from memories and past hurts. Do I believe he will be pivotal in the later books? How could he not, he has been pivotal in the entire series. Harry?s reaction to Snape has been most interesting and will continue to be so. I personally do not believe they will ever be able to work together and play nicely. Because Harry is capable of feeling empathy, I believe he will never understand how a grown man could behave as Snape has done to innocent children (not only to Harry but Hermione and Neville also). I mean Harry does not go out his way to bother Draco and only responds to what Draco starts, so how could Harry understand the strike first mentality (at least not before he has achieved some age and wisdom)? Snape will never be able to let go of his hatred for James to see the man Harry is becoming (I believe much more like Lily than James). If he were going to be able to, he would not have been blinded by James arrogance to call Harry arrogant. Yes, Harry has his faults (including problems with authority and asking for advice or help), but the problems Snape goads him with are James? faults not Harry?s. Will Snape die during the series? Only JRK knows for sure. I do not think Snape is a heroic figure, and I can not see him sacrificing himself for anyone, especially not for that brat Potter.
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 6:50 am (#423 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 7:53 am
Hem Hem: I just can't figure out why Snape would hide that particular memory from Voldemort.
Well the memory was of something really horrid that James did to Snape, right? And, it's quite possible that the other memories were similar, perhaps the Shrieking Shack incident would have been the next memory.... My point is that, if Voldy wanted to manipulate Snape into doing something against Harry, even though he knows they need Harry to defeat Voldemort, those particular memories that drudge up the old resentments toward James would be just the tools Voldemort would need to use.....
BTW, some ways back someone mentioned that, without having any interactions outside of mischief making and potions class, there is no way for Snape to know that Harry is indeed not as arrogant as James. I just wanted to say that I agree, and that's what made the whole peeking in the pensieve scene so bad, in my opinion, I think Snape was finally realizing that Harry's life was the enchanted experience that James's was but was instead more like his own tortured childhood....
fidelio - Oct 17, 2003 7:20 am (#424 of 644)
I suspect that if Voldilocks had browsed through Snape's memories when Snape was much younger, he may have already seen these memories--what Harry saw in the Pensieve and the Shrieking Shack business. They'd have been much fresher and more immediately painful, and much easier to spot and draw out, and that much harder to hide, if Snape had any knowledge of Occlumency at that time.
I've suggested this before, but it may have become lost in the shuffle, since no one bit into it at the time--maybe Snape his the business with James because he was ashamed of something he'd done, and didn't want Harry to see it. And what might he be ashamed of? Why, being rude to Lily! Has anyone else noticed that some of the worst fights between Harry, Ron and Draco begin when someone [usually Malfoy] insults someone else's mother? [JKR has a thing about mothers--the protective effects of Lily's death are just part of it. It's also a convention of all the British boarding-school books and stories, from Tom Brown's Schooldays on.] Even Draco, little rotter that he is, gets upset when Harry and Ron mention his mother's appearance at the Quidditch World Cup. The fastest way to escalate things from a simple slanging match to actual physical violence [forget the hexes] is to be hateful about someone's mother. I have to wonder if Snape didn't somehow feel that Harry would be unlikely to handle seeing his dead mother called an ugly name by an adolescent Snape. There are other reasons why he might hide it as well--our general favorite has been that Snape didn't want Harry to see him being humiliated so thoroughly.
I also wonder if it's possible that Snape was in fact trying to shelter Harry from seeing James acting like a jerk. It doesn't seem to be in character, but I suppose it's possible. Snape certainly doesn't do a good job of conveying kindness and concern from what we've seen so far, but he may either feel this and be unable to express it, or be pragmatic enough that he felt it would keep Harry calmer not to see this and become upset--after all, Harry was upset enough about it to go to dangerous lengths to discuss it with Lupin and Sirius.
I guess we should also remember that he may well have had more than one reason for wanting Harry not to see it--and the more reasons he has, the more he'd want to hide it.
LevTRox - Oct 17, 2003 8:10 am (#425 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 9:11 am
Cool ideas.
I really hope Snape doesn't die, this would be a bit depressing and/or contrived.
Anyone ever watch Dr Who? Good seried (I was a bit obsessed at about 13 years old), but the most dull contrived bit of story line was the person who was theoretically on the good side but had a Snape-like attitude to the Doctor redeemed themself by sacrificing themself nobelly to save all of the "Nice People"
But JKR can't dissapoint us like this can she?!! She couldn't write something THAT naff?!!
Okay, mild hysteria over...
Snape's worst memory was plain humiliating and, incase no one has noticed, Snape has a real REPUTATION to keep up, he is the teacher who you quake in your boots at the though of and NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES someone who gets dangled upside down, see?
Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 8:13 am (#426 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 9:22 am
fidelio, wonderful ideas there about the "mother" issue. JKR certainly has given us a strong thread throughout the epic about mothers.
All of the mother characters--Petunia, Molly, Lily, Narcissa, Mrs. Black, Luna's deceased mum, Alice Longbottom, Gran, Mrs. Riddle (dying in childbirth), have I left any out?--represent some aspect of motherhood. A relationship based on a particular emotion--love, hate, uninvolvement, indifference, resentment--can possibly set a child on a course for life.
And, you are so right about people, espcially boys, I think, getting really, really steamed when someone insults their mother, often to the point of losing it. I think that is a universal response common in most cultures.
I've drifted a bit off the Snape topic directly, but I do think that Snape was hiding his rude and ill treatment of Lily by putting that memory in the pensieve. Maybe that wasn't the only reason, but you've made a good argument to include it on the list of reasons.
Ciao. Barb
Peregrine - Oct 17, 2003 8:18 am (#427 of 644)
Wow, there?s so much to talk about I?m forced to take notes. If this weren?t actually interesting/fun I?d swear I was still in school.
I really like the idea of Snape being ashamed of what he called Lily. I can see him wanting to show Harry what a jerk James was (to prove all of his snide comments right), but he wouldn?t want Harry to see that maybe, yeah, Snape deserved what James did to him. Maybe Snape wants to show himself as purely a victim. (I?m convinced there was something he must have done to set James and Sirius off in the first place?not that they should have retaliated the way they did.)
As for Snape being the new DADA?I?m hesitant to say JKR would break the pattern of new characters for the teacher. Remember back in the day when a lot of us thought she would break the pattern and bring in Mrs. Figg or Fluer? But, on the other hand, she broke the pattern of Halloween?. I don?t know, I?d say if she brings in a recurring character it?ll be Moody over Snape (but then, I never thought she?d kill Sirius, so what do I know?).
And lastly, maybe the reason Harry was able to break into Snape?s memories was because Snape wasn?t trying very hard. Either he thought Harry would never be able to do it, or he wanted Harry to break through so he (Harry) would know what it felt like when it worked.
Just a thought?or three.
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 8:45 am (#428 of 644)
fidelio: "I guess we should also remember that he may well have had more than one reason for wanting Harry not to see it--and the more reasons he has, the more he'd want to hide it. "
I like that idea. People are usually much too complex to have only one reason for things, and JKR has certainly shown us Snape's complexity.
Lev: "but the most dull contrived bit of story line was the person who was theoretically on the good side but had a Snape-like attitude to the Doctor redeemed themself by sacrificing themself nobelly to save all of the "Nice People" "
I'm hoping JKR doesn't do this. If she does, then she would have to be very careful in how she wrote it so it wouldn't seem too trite.
The rest of you on the "mother" thing:
I like your concepts of how the "mother" idea works. I've never been in the "Snape was in love with Lily" camp, but I could see him later developing respect for her in how she stands up to people who are doing what she thinks is wrong.
I can also see Snape not wanting Harry to see that entire confrontation for a multitude of reasons. I think Snape would be livid if he knew Harry felt sorry for him, he'd definitely not want his current reputation as a Potions Master and professor to be sullied, and while I don't think he'd care much if Harry were to be hurt by something he saw James do, I think he'd want to be careful of how those excess emotions would affect the Occlumency training.
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:01 am (#429 of 644)
Fidelio: I suspect that if Voldilocks had browsed through Snape's memories when Snape was much younger, he may have already seen these memories--what Harry saw in the Pensieve and the Shrieking Shack business. They'd have been much fresher and more immediately painful, and much easier to spot and draw out, and that much harder to hide, if Snape had any knowledge of Occlumency at that time.
Per usual, fidelio, you have given me more food for thought with eloquence and grace. I had thought of this too when I came up with my last little theory. I figured that Voldemort had come across them before, but that would have been, what, almost twenty years ago? And, then he spent 13 years as a spirit. At the time, Harry wasn't a specific target and so now would be the time Snape would be more worried about letting certain memories slip because now Voldemort has a focus for his manipulation - Harry, a bit of a sore subject with Snape anyway.....
I absolutely agree, though, that there were probably multiple reasons he was hiding that particular memory from Harry. If there weren't, it just wouldn't be our Severus, would it.....
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 17, 2003 9:02 am (#430 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 10:02 am
Weeny Owl: "[...] I could see him later developing respect for her in how she stands up to people who are doing what she thinks is wrong."
Try to replace Lily with Hermione. If Snape has this respect for Lily then I would expect him to behave similarly in in front of Hermy; at least a light touch of respect, but I never noticed anything...
Just a quick thought...
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 9:06 am (#431 of 644)
Laura:
I understand your point, but I think the difference is that Lily and Snape were contemporaries while Hermione is a student. Plus, Snape actually saw Lily defending him and hasn't really seen Hermione in action... yet.
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 17, 2003 9:10 am (#432 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 10:22 am
Right, good point...
I like your "...yet". After all, we've seen Hermy defending Snape on many occasions - maybe we'll see her standing up for his rights in public soon... or maybe she'll ask him to join SPEW?!?
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:44 am (#433 of 644)
Oh dear, I have a question I would like to pose but I'm afraid of disrupting the flow of the discussion, it's going so well.... Okay, if this doesn't seem worth discussing, skip it....
We were discussing why Snape joined the DEs and why he may have left them and we got onto the subject of his childhood, his growing up in an abusive home, and his personality. Now, children who grow up in extreme situations (abusive parent, alcoholic parent, etc) usually tend to confront that situation in an extreme way when they're adults (they either become an alcoholic or go well out of their way to avoid alcohol all together, etc). If Snape were to have married and perhaps had a family of his own hidden away in some dungeon or in Hogsmeade or something, how might he interact with them? (Also keep in mind that these responses are like any other type of conditioning/learning and are usually specific to environment.)
fidelio - Oct 17, 2003 10:33 am (#434 of 644)
That's a tough one--I suspect he may have reacted by avoiding marriage and other close relationships. This may be because he's afraid he's too 'damaged' to handle such things and doesn't trust himself; it may be because he really doesn't have the skills to manage such things and so hasn't been able to lure anyone into a marriage or other close, long-term relationship. He may even have one or more failed relationships that lie in the past. Snape may even be able to attraxt women, but not know how to keep them interested. You need a certain amount of openness to keep a relationship moving for any length of time, and it seems like any time Our Sev manages to open up about his feelings/experiences/thoughts that it's in moments of extreme stress, and the results aren't too pretty. You need to know something about having a good relationship of any kind, in order to have them, and it seems like such experiences, even by exposure to how other people interact, have been rare for Snape. I suspect he has a better grasp of the medicinal herbs and potions used by the !Kung bushmen than he does of how a good marriage works, and DD may be a close to a good father-figure as he's ever had.
I can't help but feel, though, that if he does have a wife and possibly children as well, that DD, if he had any reason to feel things weren't going the way they should, would drop the anvil "Have you considered how much you are acting like your father?" on Snape's head.
Thanks to you all for rising to the bait about Lily, as well as the chance of mixed motives!
HarrysAngel - Oct 17, 2003 11:25 am (#435 of 644)
Hi, folks! My first post, and it's about something that's really been bugging me. A few pages back someone mentioned Harry's first occlumency lesson. I'm sure this scene is significant but I just wish I could work out how!
The first time Snape Occls Harry (or whatever the word should be!) and gets an insight into Harry's less-than-perfect childhood he's not much moved by it. But then they try again and three of Harry's memories are mentioned - the dragon in GoF, his parents in the mirror of Erised, and Cedric's dead body. This time Snape is described as angry and very pale. Why? After all, he knew about the dragon and Cedric's death.
Did it reminded him what Harry went through in the Triwizard - surely he knew already? I prefer the idea that it was the unexpected sight of Lily in the mirror. I liked what someone said earlier, about how Snape could have been talking about himself when he went into a rant about 'weak people' - was Lily his weak point?
Ideas anyone?
Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 11:35 am (#436 of 644)
HarrysAngel, good questions.
Two possible answers:
1) The "angry and pale" bit might have been an honest reaction to the murder of an innocent student by one's enemy. Remember, Snape is supposed to be on the good side now (and no one has yet convinced me totally that he's not), and this memory is of his arch enemy and the cronies that used to be Snape's fellow DEs.
2) It is possible that when one performs legilimency (which is actually what Snape was doing to try to get into Harry's head; Harry is supposedly using occlumency to block him out), one not only accesses the thoughts and memories but also the emotions to some extent. If this were how it worked, Snape would be feeling and echo of Harry's own emtions. It could also explain that business with Harry feeling like doing evil (biting Arthur, attacking DD) when he was having the connection with V. The emotional content flows in and out. BTW, this was one of the truly horrible bits in the book that really creeped me out because it opened up the possibilty that Harry could be "taken" (possessed?) and no longer be Harry.
Ciao. Barb
HarrysAngel - Oct 17, 2003 11:47 am (#437 of 644)
Oops, sorry, of course it's legilimency.
I like the idea that there's an emotional echo when you perform legilimency - although Snape didn't seem to pick up much from the first memories he extracted from Harry.
I just can't decide which side Snape's on. I think the bottom line is that he's on his own side...
By the way, Madame Librarian, I agree, Voldie getting inside Harry's brain is not a nice thought.
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 7:14 pm (#438 of 644)
Laura:
Yes, we have seen Hermione defending Snape. I think she'd defend him in public, and if she did, he'd probably drop over in a faint.
Sarah and fidelio:
I feel that Snape has had his share of... errr... romantic encounters, but I don't feel he's married or has children. I could see him puzzled and angry over a relationship not working out but never realizing that relationships can't be one-sided things.
HarrysAngel:
As for Snape being pale after seeing Cedric's body in Harry's memories, it could be that he was reminded of just exactly what happened that night... Voldie being reborn, Cedric's death, Barty Crouch pretending to be Moody, and of course... whatever it was Dumbledore asked him to do if he was prepared.
Rich - Oct 18, 2003 2:34 am (#439 of 644)
I think the angry part could be contributed to by the fact that Snape thought Harry wasn't trying hard enough in trying to block him out. And as for being pale, Snape's always pretty pale isn't he?
This was mentioned a fair few posts back about how Snape might have possibly intended to leave the Pensieve on the bench with that memory in it to show Harry 'something'. I don't think he meant to. He gave Harry the big 'don't wear your heart on your sleeve' talk a few weeks back and now he is pretty much - purposely - doing what he specifically told Harry not to do.
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 3:40 am (#440 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 4:48 am
On the Snape married topic.
Maybe he is married (possibly with children) and his relationship with them wildly differs from the others he's had in his life?
He might have a family who really love an respect him (perhaps enabeling him to reciprocate these feelings) whilst the rest of the world hate him, dislike him or are suspicious of him. This could make him a bit more hostile to everyone, give him a bit of a seige mentality; that the whole world is against his appart from his missus and kid(s).
Perhaps he dislikes Harry because his own son/daughter attends Hogwarts, and is, strictly speaking, a far better student (behaviour wise and academically at least) but does not get the sort of recognition they deserve (maybe the kid uses their mother's name to avoid the embarassment if being at the same school as their parent!)
Like to nominate anyone to be Snape's kid?
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 18, 2003 3:55 am (#441 of 644)
I think the kid would be probably hooked nosed and greasy haired. Nobody is described like that in the books. I would assume that if he did have a child they go to a different school e.g Durmstrang/BeauBattons. I have difficulty in seeing Snape married with children because he has so many issues.
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 4:19 am (#442 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 5:20 am
Maybe the kid takes after their mother and doesn't look much like Snape? And there are plenty of Hogwarts kids who haven't been described, for all we know Severus Snape Junior could be ANYONE! Especially if he/she didn't want to be known as "Snape" to avoid embarassment.
My cousin had a friend who when he was transfering to Senior School (at eleven) looked to change his name to his mother's maiden name for similar reasons.
I want to nominate Anthony Goldstein!
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 4:51 am (#443 of 644)
I have no good reason for this nomination by the way...
I really think if Snape had his own child who was "better" (better behaved, better at potions) than Harry he would feel more resentful towards a boy who hasn't exactly "earned" any of his fame, just got un/lucky .
"Why does Potter get treated like a hero and X get ignored?" "It's unfair, I shall show Harry he's just another student as is X" (I'm not seriously suggesting he'd name his kid X by the way!)
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 18, 2003 5:10 am (#444 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 6:11 am
I don?t think Snape is married or that he has any kids?
On the topic of Snape being angry and pale:
I don?t really believe this (yet...), just thought I?d share my idea:
HarrysAngel: ?[?] three of Harry's memories are mentioned - the dragon in GoF, his parents in the mirror of Erised, and Cedric's dead body. This time Snape is described as angry and very pale. Why? After all, he knew about the dragon and Cedric's death.?
It was only the mirror of Erised that Snape didn?t already know about. Maybe his reaction played on that???
Emily - Oct 18, 2003 5:43 pm (#445 of 644)
Consider seeing you old school enemy, unexpectedly, in someone elses memories. Particularly that person's son, whom you hate as well. Wouldn't you be angry and/or pale, too?
schoff - Oct 18, 2003 5:48 pm (#446 of 644)
You know, you've got a point, Marauder5. Snape probably didn't expect to see a grown-up James in Harry's head. He probably would have assumed Harry wouldn't know what James (or Lily for that matter) really looked like, since he died when Harry was very young.
Rich - Oct 18, 2003 10:07 pm (#447 of 644)
Did Snape see what Harry was looking at in the mirror, or did he only see the mirror?
HarrysAngel - Oct 18, 2003 10:10 pm (#448 of 644)
Rich13, he saw James and Lily waving out of the mirror...
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 19, 2003 1:48 am (#449 of 644)
Snape said that he could only see snatches of what was in Harrys mind. This leads me to think that he may or may not have seen Harrys parents in the mirror of Erised. I think that he would probably have been more likely to see things attached to very strong negative moments more easily because it would make Harry extreemly uncomfertable. Its just a thought because I thought that Legilemency was about correctly interpriting the issues that you see if someones head and its not like reading a book.
LevTRox - Oct 19, 2003 6:58 am (#450 of 644)
This may be a bit off the current discussion but what was the old Potions teacher like?
Did they effect how Snape acts as the Potions Master?
Were they a real softie that let their students get away with murder and the subject slip?
Were they a real hardcase who gave Snape a serious reputation to live up to?
Edited Oct 16, 2003 8:28 am
Hahahaha!, Fawkesy Lady, that "Mud----d" thing was great!, it cracked me up.
I had never thought about Snape being muggle born or anything of the sort. And I thought to myself "aren't all Slytherin's pure-blood?", then I remembered that the Sorting Hat had seriously considered putting Harry, who's half muggle, in Slytherin.
I'll have to think about Snape though. Hasn't there been any hint, ever? I'm trying to remember any. But hey, that's Snape, very mysterious. I don't think it's impossible though, but at the same time I don't find it likely. I don't know why, it's just a hunch.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 7:55 am (#402 of 644)
No, there has never been any hint of his heritage at all, and we never saw even a glimpse of anything until OoP. I suspect he is a pureblood.
What's interesting is, not only has he made comments about blood status before, or treated kids any differently because of their blood status, but prior to OoP he never even said the word "muggle" except when reading the Daily Prophet article aloud in CoS about the flying Ford Anglia, let alone "mudblood" or "squib" etc. He only seems to pick on Harry and Neville (which I more and more think Neville has to do with the prophecy and what happened to his parents). And, of course, he shows favouritism to his own house. But being a Slytherin, he naturally would not see anything wrong with that.
Fawkesy Lady - Oct 16, 2003 8:12 am (#403 of 644)
Thanks Rose!
I can picture Snape's parents jealous of his talent, perhaps because they don't have it themselves? Being abusive calling him names, etc.
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 8:15 am (#404 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 9:16 am
I would be really interested in Snape's family history as well, especially after what Harry saw during his Occlumency lessons. It doesn't seem to me like his childhood was so peachy, which would probably explain a lot about his attitudes.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 8:37 am (#405 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 9:49 am
While I'm still not convinced that Snape is on the side of the angels, Gina and company are making me view some of Snape's behavior in a different way.
I reread the first Occlumency lesson and saw the part about Harry controlling his emotions in a different light. Here's the paragraph:
"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hears proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"
The first few times I read that, I thought Snape was just being his usual bullying self, but now I wonder... is he talking about Harry or himself? Is his anger with Harry not trying hard enough more fear of what could happen to Harry than just Snape's ordinary insults and taunting. Could he <gasp!> actually care about Harry's overall welfare? Not that he actually likes the kid, of course, but maybe he doesn't want to see anyone at all fall prey to Voldie the way he did?
Snape certainly doesn't give away anything about his past, but is he, perhaps, talking about his own experiences with Voldie penetrating his mind and not just what's happening with Harry?
Snape definitely has problems controlling some of his emotions, and there are sad memories he seems to wallow in, but for the most part, it seems that he can control himself.
Snape learned Occlumency for a reason and maybe it wasn't just so he could be an effective spy but so he could keep Voldie from manipulating him the way Harry's being manipulated. I wonder if Dumbledore taught him Occlumency, and from that learned, at least somewhat, why Snape can be trusted.
He may have felt betrayed when Harry went into the Pensieve, not just because of what Harry saw, but because after everything he's done to try to keep Harry from being another victim of Voldie's, Harry did something so utterly reprehensible that it reminded him of what he went through learning Occlumency and why he needed to learn it to begin with.
popkin - Oct 16, 2003 9:04 am (#406 of 644)
Edited by Oct 16, 2003 10:05 am
Weeny Owl, those were some of the most interesting insights into Snape's character I've read in a while. It makes sense that Dumbledore would have taught Snape occlumency so that he could turn away from LV without exposing himself. I can see Snape coming to Dumbledore, begging for a second chance, for clemency and sanctuary - and Dumbledore knowing that the only way for Snape to defy LV and live would be to pretend he was still in LV's service.
And, how horrid of Harry to do to Snape what he has been able to keep LV from doing for the past 15 years or more.
Peregrine [/b]- Oct 16, 2003 9:11 am (#407 of 644)
Phew! It took me six hours to read through this entire thread, but I finally did it (that?s one good way to kill an afternoon).
Weeny Owl, I can totally see Snape referring to himself in that passage. It almost sounds like Snape made some mistake and is chastising himself for it. Maybe it was a mistake that he just made that hasn?t been found out yet (as opposed to something he did the first time around).
Regarding his family?let?s say for the sake of argument that his parents were Muggles. Maybe they feared magic as much as the Dursleys do and treated Snape in the same manner as the Dursleys treat Harry.
And Rose Marie, maybe Snape doesn?t have to play chess by himself. Maybe he has a pen pal--er, quill pal on the other side of the world that he plays correspondence chess with.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 9:50 am (#408 of 644)
Beautiful, Weeny Owl!
It never occurred to me that Dumbledore taught Snape Occlumency. I always suspected Snape learned it much earlier, to protect himself from his father. But your idea has a lot of merit, and works to bring Snape and Dumbledore even closer together. Intriguing.
Wendy Snelgrove - Oct 16, 2003 10:03 am (#409 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 11:06 am
I just read/skimmed through the last 200 or so posts on this thread. Fascinating reading. Snape is perhaps the most interesting character.
A few thoughts:
Dumbledore using his Legilemens ability to assure himself Snape is onside
This was mentioned a large number of posts ago. I don't see how this ability could possibly work this way. Even if Snape's mind was totally penetrable by Dumbledore, Dumbledore would still not have 100% assurance of what Snape was thinking. Why? Because Snape is unlikely to be 100% sure of what he is thinking. It is possible that Snape was (I am speaking of the moment in time when he chose to leave the Death Eaters and join Dumbledore) sure in his mind, if he were lying to Dumbledore and only intending to spy. But if he was genuinely ready to come over, he must have felt uncertainties.
The human psyche doesn't easily come to 100% certain positions on these kinds of issues. Snape didn't go from one day being 100% convinced that Voldemort was right to being 100% convinced that Voldemort was wrong (although he may be at that place now). Uncertainties slowly creep into your mind. "Gee, did he really need to kill that guy just because he didn't like his tie". "He used crucio on Jackson because Jackson was 5 minutes late, even though he had a good reason and has always been loyal." "Those Phoenix guys are nasty to me but Longbottom was always a decent fellow". "I am afraid of what Voldemort might do to me, but I want my mother to be proud of me".
Who knows at what point these kinds of thoughts congealed sufficiently for Snape to push past his fears and/or earlier beliefs that Voldemort was right and decide to leave. The point is that he would likely have left while still being somewhat uncertain. So if Dumbledore had probed his mind, he would have seen some doubts and uncertainties mixed in with some convictions that Voldemort was wrong.
I am confident that Snape is now 100% certain that Voldemort is and was wrong. I just think it often takes time to get there. The example that springs to my mind is like leaving a relationship that is not good but not terrible either. Things get progressively worse until, at the moment of deciding to go, the bad overwhelms the good. (And if you are like me, you hang in even longer, not wanting to leave just because you are in a tough patch). So when you leave, these might be the thoughts in your mind: I love her, we don't get along, we repeat the same arguments, I will be lonely, we have a great house, we can never seem to agree about money, I will miss her family and she will miss mine etc. etc. (It's a mixed bag). Then later, time usually takes you to a place of more certainty: I love her as a friend, its good to go to dinner sometimes, we just didn't do well as partners, we are both better off this way, I am truly in a happy relationship with my new love and so is she, etc. etc.
Anyway, enough rambling about that - I think the point is made.
Snape's treatment of Harry
I haven't read the thread regarding Snape and the Prophecy yet, and I apologize if this ground has been covered, but I don't think Snape knows the Prophecy. And therefore, I think he just thinks Harry is a lucky guy, nothing special. He got saved by his mother's love, not anything about him. He comes to the school and is admired and special, but doesn't deserve it. He's got all kinds of people willing to let him get away with breaking the rules. He needs protecting perhaps more than other kids, but he seems to disregard other people's efforts, etc. etc.
Snape's feelings about Harry can be entirely consistent with being against Voldemort I think. He is a fairly damaged person (mean, sarcastic, lonely, angry) on the right side. Harry is a thorn in his side in his own right (without deserving it, from Snape's point of view) and a reminder of his tormenting father.
Snape as the next DADA teacher
I know this could (should?) go in the post for this topic specifically, but it has been referenced here as well. I don't think Snape will be the next DADA teacher, for reasons that are completely external to the plot/Wizarding World:
- 5 of 5 DADA teachers have been new to the stories the year they appeared
- 5 of 5 DADA teachers have ceased to be teachers after that year
I think JKR will keep up this little pattern because it is part of the amusing background. So no Snape, no Bill, no Fleur, no Molly etc. Someone we've not yet met, in my humble opinion.
Thanks for letting me post.
LevTRox - Oct 16, 2003 11:56 am (#410 of 644)
I agree Wendy, I think the pattern may break up...
Maybe the next DADA teacher will be that "Quill Pal" of Snape's being talked about earlier? Either that or an old mate of Lily's...or perhaps they'll be BOTH?! It would be quite cool/interesting/strange to meet someone who actually LIKED Snape. Do you think he'd perk up about if he had a kindred spirit about the place?
Wondering how Snape spends his free time?
You know how teachers spend their evnings comrades? WORKING! The governments of the world should cut them a LOT of slack because even though they get a lot of holidays their workload is huge (In Britain at least) and they have a tough job to contend with.
I come from a family of teachers so I have the deepest sympathy with them. From obsevations I have found the average teacher's evening is spent doing the following:
Marking homework
Marking Essays (much worse than run of the mill homwork)
Paniking about all the other work yet to be marked and will be handed in the next day
Planning lessons
Complaing, *without* mentioning names of hooligan children, about work
Stomping about because your rotten kids are sitting around in front of the telly enjoing themselves whilst you've done a hard day's work AND THEY HAVEN'T EVEN DONE THE DISHES!
Moaning about getting into London
Sitting on the sofa
Watching telly/reading
(This is what the teachers *I* know do)
If doing something else when they NEED TO BE WORKING they generally:
Act very grumpilly and cease to communicate
Look bored out of their minds
Be excessivly nice about "X" and waste more time then necessary so as to not appear that you want to be working rather than doing the lovely activity that is "X"
Snape's probably annoyed because he had the Fourth-Year Hufflepuff's essays to mark when he'd been made to give Harry Occlumnency lesons lessons! Perfectly normal!
Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 12:30 pm (#411 of 644)
Hello everyone.
I really enjoyed your post Wendy, but I'm curious about a couple of points. First, while its true that each DADA teacher only lasts one year, its also true that Snape will only take those who have achieved outstanding OWLs in Potions into his NEWT level Potions class. I can't see how Harry could have an outstanding OWL in Potions, exceeds expectations perhaps, but not outstanding. It seems likely to me that Harry will be in a NEWTs Potions class given his desire to pursue (possibly) a career as an Auror so he would have to have a teacher other than Snape. I don't think there will be two Potions teachers and the school does need a DADA teacher. Snape as Harry's DADA teacher would be even more interesting than Snape as his Potions teacher. And he can't reject Harry from his DADA class since Harry undoubtably achieved an outstanding OWL in that subject. I don't think that Snape will be teaching DADA in Harry's seventh year, I think that that will be Dumbledore.
Second, I wonder why Dumbledore would be better able to determine Snape's loyalties than Voldemort would. After all, Voldemort can literally smell a lie. And Dumbledore has admitted that he underestimated how much Snape's bitterness toward Harry's father would affect his ability to teach Harry Occulamency (sp?). Could he also be mistaken about Snape's loyalties? Snape did save Harry's life, but perhaps Harry isn't Snape's target, maybe his target is Dumbledore himself. Saving Harry would have been a way to further instill trust in Dumbledore.
Snape confronted Quirrel about his loyalties in book 1. Wouldn't that confrontation have shown Voldemort what Snape's loyalties really were? Its difficult to see how Voldemort could trust Snape.
LevTRox - Oct 16, 2003 12:48 pm (#412 of 644)
Maybe Harry will re-sit Potions in his 6th year get an "O"? Maybe Madam Hooch handles students re-sitting exams between Quiddich matches? - a bit off thread here...
Then Harry might, in the 7th year, study with the 6th year and get the WW equivalent of an A/S-Level in Potions. Harry re-sitting with Snape that could be a laugh (for us!) Think Snape takes re-sit students or not?
Pisceswicca - Oct 16, 2003 2:02 pm (#413 of 644)
oH, my gosh!! I've been absent from reading in the Forum for a day or two, and so many great and interesting theories have been discussed! I wouldn't even know where to begin! First of all, props to Mdme. Librarian, and Pince for your very interesting "alternate" views. I also want to say "hooray" to Weeny Owl, Grant the Great, and fidelio for your posts. My trains of thoughts coincide with yours. I also kike Wendy Snelgrove's last posts. These past 200-something posts have been fascinating!
I also hadn't thought of where Snape couldn've learned Occlumency. I didn't assume anything. I think I thought he'd already been accomplished in it way before he decided to turn to DD. DD teaching him absolutely MUST have brought them closer together.
Regarding Snape's reasons for switching to DD's side - all of the reasons I've read so far have weight. I tend towards him switching on his own. The whole "mother's death wish" and all of that was great! It wouln't have to necesarily have been THAT in particular, but something along the lines of. Great theory.
I also found it interesting, that in a few hundred posts ago, it mentions that Snape actually does NOT know about the Prophesy. And that that's the reason why he thinks that Harry isn't at all that special, and that that's why he's so keen on expelling Harry. But he DOES know that Voldy wants to kill him, so what gives?
About Snape becoming a DE in the first place, I'm pretty sure that Voldy DID use the "sympathetic" approach. I'd forgotten about Barty Crouch Jr.'s comments about how he and Voldy were so alike. I don't know what approaches he used on OTHER sorts of people, but I think that in Snape's case, telling him how much alike they are and how they'd both come from Muggle families who'd disappointed them, and how they both hated they're fathers, and how "maybe we can do this together" could have appealed to Snape. The sympathetic approach is very effective on many, many people. On most people I'd think.
And like Madame Librarian says, I also think that Snape is most likely going to die to save someone's life. Maybe it's Harry's. Maybe it's DD's. If it isn't Harry than it's going to be somebody Harry loves very, very, very much.
One thing I find curious is that if Snape is such a good Leglimens and Occlumens, then wouldn't he have used those skills in earlier books? To get into Harry's mind? Why threaten him with Veriseratum? Why weren't DD's and Snape's skills used to avoid or prevent or to handle situations in the previous books?
Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 2:07 pm (#414 of 644)
Pisceswicca--Thanks for your kudos, but one correction--it wasn't I who made the Snape will die prediction. I have taken a self-imposed oath to not predict any character's death because I can see sooo many arguments for and against any particular prediction. Rather than use up the limited amount of "think" power in my brain, I'll leave that issue to JKR.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 4:23 pm (#415 of 644)
Ovate, the thread "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" Professor Kosh "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 10/8/03 6:26pm has a discussion about your question about Quirrell.
I don't want to think about Snape dying. I know it's possible. But I just don't want to think about it. I do think, though, that JKR has set him up to be pivotal, and that our minds will be blown away by what he will do, and we will learn a lot more about his past.
As for the Snape-Voldemort break-up. I don't see it like a romantic break-up decision-wise. I see it as more of trying to leave a career. Yes, when one makes the decision to leave something significant there are lingering doubts. But usually most of those doubts get played out (people get tired of a never-changing pattern of escalating unpleasantness of some sort) or there is a "big bang" event that causes a person to make up their mind. In the case of Snape, I think he had a series of escalating doubts, but the "big bang" was the prophecy and something else unknown to us as of yet. But I do believe there was a moral component and that he didn't look back once his mind was made up.
Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 4:38 pm (#416 of 644)
Thanks for the heads up Gina.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 7:30 pm (#417 of 644)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 8:37 pm
I don't think Harry will do his exams over, but he's going to have Snape as a teacher one way or the other. If he surprises himself and everyone else and gets an Outstanding in his Potions O.W.L., then that's that. If Snape is DADA teacher, which I doubt, then Harry still has a class with Snape.
If Harry doesn't get an Outstanding Potions O.W.L. and Snape still teaches Potions, what could happen is that since Professor McGonagall said she'd help Harry become an Auror, then I think she'll step in somehow.
I think Draco didn't do that well in his Transfigurations O.W.L., so I could see McGonagall saying something to Snape about how she would be willing to take Draco if he'd be willing to take Harry.
Harry was thinking about the written part of the Potions O.W.L. being difficult, but he didn't say it was impossible. He thought he'd done fairly well with the practical portion. I think he'll either get an Outstanding or be so close that, maybe with pressure from Dumbledore, Snape takes him anyway.
As for using Veritaserum instead of Legilimency, Snape said that the mind wasn't a book to be read at leisure (or something to that effect), and part of what makes a good Legilimens is correctly interpreting what is seen. Veritaserum is a way of making the person actually tell the truth as he/she sees it... it may not be correct, but it's what the person actually thinks is the truth. It wouldn't really require any analyzing.
S.E. Jones - Oct 16, 2003 9:08 pm (#418 of 644)
Popkin: And, how horrid of Harry to do to Snape what he has been able to keep LV from doing for the past 15 years or more.
Wow, I'm so loving this discussion, it's one of the best this forum has seen in a while. It was worth every hour it took to completely catch up on it after weeks of constant tests and studying. Okay, we were discussing why Snape joined the DEs and why he left and why he used the pensieve during the Occulemency lessons and something about popkin's quote (above) caught my attention. What if Snape put those particular memories in the pensieve, not to keep Harry himself from seeing them, but to prevent Voldie from somehow seeing them, via Harry, and using them against him. I think Snape realizes that he has a lasting resentment towards James and these memories (which drudge up so much of that resentment and anger on their own) could be easily twisted and manipulated to make Snape do something against Harry that would be in Voldemort's favor, even if he's not entirely aware of it or not entirely willing (strong emotions can do strange things to us sometimes). Maybe it was the fear of what Voldy could do with that kind of a weapon that lead to him putting them into the pensieve, and Harry invading the pensieve the way he did was sort of rendering that protection null and void. Maybe that's why Snape lost it the way he did, he knew Harry could have just given the Dark Lord something big to work with..... Comments?......
Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense, it's after midnight here and I've been pretty sleep deprived for a while now....
Hem Hem - Oct 16, 2003 9:12 pm (#419 of 644)
That's a really intruiging possibility, Sarah...the premise makes a lot of sense. I just can't figure out why Snape would hide that particular memory from Voldemort.
Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 9:26 pm (#420 of 644)
Oh, Sarah, how positively brilliant! Snape was totally unnerved when Harry actually said "Voldemort," and maybe that works in with what you've said... mentioning Voldie's name is nearly the same as calling him, and if Harry now has memories of Snape's that Voldie could use against Snape, then no wonder he'd be just a tad disgruntled. It would almost be like hanging a neon sign over Hogwarts asking Voldie snoop in Harry's mind.
Hem Hem, it could be that it wasn't that memory in and of itself but rather what else Harry might have seen had Snape not returned when he did.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 17, 2003 4:50 am (#421 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 6:04 am
I haven't been here for about 24 hours and I've had lots to catch up on (20 posts is a lot for me, especially when it comes to Snape). I hope my thoughts aren't jumbled up now.
Weeny Owl, I think you came up with a very good idea, about McGonagall taking Draco if Snape took Harry. It seems very possible. But I can't shake off the feeling that it will be DD who tells Snape to take Harry again. I mean let's see, Snape could think "now why should I do that, just because he wants to become an auror? Why should I care about what career he wants to pursue? Why should he always be the 'priviliged' one?" (of course, we know that it isn't exactly the prilivage thing that would get to him, because he's treated Draco and co.better than the rest- it's just that he doesn't like Harry and that's that). But becoming an Auror is the only thing that Harry has thought about doing after finishing his studies at Hogwarts; not only that, but it would help him alot in his mission to finnish Voldie off (some think Snape doesn't know about the prophecy, others think he does know about it....either way, he'll find out, if he doesn't know about it already, soon). Snape will have to give in, whether (with or withought the "h" after the "w"???) he likes it or not.
Wendy, about your theory as of why Snape won't become the next DADA teacher, I don't know... I mean, I don't see Snape as the next DADA teacher either, but just because "5 of 5 DADA teachers have been new to the stories the year they appeared" and "5 of 5 DADA teachers have ceased to be teachers after that year", as you stated in post #409, doesn't mean the pattern won't break. Just a possibility. And by the way, I find your opinions of Snape and his "gradual certainty that he was doing the right thing" very interesting indeed. And I agree with you there 100%.
I can't remember who suggested DD becoming the next DADA teacher; I think it's an excellent idea, but I think if it were to happen, we'll see it in book 7.
Sarah "What if Snape put those particular memories in the pensieve, not to keep Harry himself from seeing them, but to prevent Voldie from somehow seeing them, via Harry, and using them against him". Bravo! I love it.
One last thing (I promise I'm almost done!): Weeny Owl "[...]Snape was totally unnerved when Harry actually said "Voldemort," and maybe that works in with what you've said... mentioning Voldie's name is nearly the same as calling him, and if Harry now has memories of Snape's that Voldie could use against Snape, then no wonder he'd be just a tad disgruntled".
Then how would this explain Bellatrix's reaction when Harry said "Voldermort"?
Thank you for having made it till here! I'll be gone for the weekend (I'll do my best and be back before Sunday).... um, try not to get too carried away with so many posts,hee... kidding (well sort of).
Have a nice weekend!
Lisaren - Oct 17, 2003 6:27 am (#422 of 644)
Snape is a fascinating and integral part of the Harry Potter series. His relationship with Harry has provided endless speculation and entertainment for everyone. I do not believe he is evil and working with Voldemort to bring about the rise of the Dark Lord. I also do not believe he is a tragic misunderstood man who deserves our sympathy. I believe he is warped, twisted, suspicious, mean, childish, bitter, angry and any other equivalent trait. He is a flawed human who strikes chords with almost all of us in some way, just to an extreme. How many of us don?t have memories from the past that shape our reactions to certain situations? Snape is just twisted to the degree that every one of his current actions is shaped from memories and past hurts. Do I believe he will be pivotal in the later books? How could he not, he has been pivotal in the entire series. Harry?s reaction to Snape has been most interesting and will continue to be so. I personally do not believe they will ever be able to work together and play nicely. Because Harry is capable of feeling empathy, I believe he will never understand how a grown man could behave as Snape has done to innocent children (not only to Harry but Hermione and Neville also). I mean Harry does not go out his way to bother Draco and only responds to what Draco starts, so how could Harry understand the strike first mentality (at least not before he has achieved some age and wisdom)? Snape will never be able to let go of his hatred for James to see the man Harry is becoming (I believe much more like Lily than James). If he were going to be able to, he would not have been blinded by James arrogance to call Harry arrogant. Yes, Harry has his faults (including problems with authority and asking for advice or help), but the problems Snape goads him with are James? faults not Harry?s. Will Snape die during the series? Only JRK knows for sure. I do not think Snape is a heroic figure, and I can not see him sacrificing himself for anyone, especially not for that brat Potter.
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 6:50 am (#423 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 7:53 am
Hem Hem: I just can't figure out why Snape would hide that particular memory from Voldemort.
Well the memory was of something really horrid that James did to Snape, right? And, it's quite possible that the other memories were similar, perhaps the Shrieking Shack incident would have been the next memory.... My point is that, if Voldy wanted to manipulate Snape into doing something against Harry, even though he knows they need Harry to defeat Voldemort, those particular memories that drudge up the old resentments toward James would be just the tools Voldemort would need to use.....
BTW, some ways back someone mentioned that, without having any interactions outside of mischief making and potions class, there is no way for Snape to know that Harry is indeed not as arrogant as James. I just wanted to say that I agree, and that's what made the whole peeking in the pensieve scene so bad, in my opinion, I think Snape was finally realizing that Harry's life was the enchanted experience that James's was but was instead more like his own tortured childhood....
fidelio - Oct 17, 2003 7:20 am (#424 of 644)
I suspect that if Voldilocks had browsed through Snape's memories when Snape was much younger, he may have already seen these memories--what Harry saw in the Pensieve and the Shrieking Shack business. They'd have been much fresher and more immediately painful, and much easier to spot and draw out, and that much harder to hide, if Snape had any knowledge of Occlumency at that time.
I've suggested this before, but it may have become lost in the shuffle, since no one bit into it at the time--maybe Snape his the business with James because he was ashamed of something he'd done, and didn't want Harry to see it. And what might he be ashamed of? Why, being rude to Lily! Has anyone else noticed that some of the worst fights between Harry, Ron and Draco begin when someone [usually Malfoy] insults someone else's mother? [JKR has a thing about mothers--the protective effects of Lily's death are just part of it. It's also a convention of all the British boarding-school books and stories, from Tom Brown's Schooldays on.] Even Draco, little rotter that he is, gets upset when Harry and Ron mention his mother's appearance at the Quidditch World Cup. The fastest way to escalate things from a simple slanging match to actual physical violence [forget the hexes] is to be hateful about someone's mother. I have to wonder if Snape didn't somehow feel that Harry would be unlikely to handle seeing his dead mother called an ugly name by an adolescent Snape. There are other reasons why he might hide it as well--our general favorite has been that Snape didn't want Harry to see him being humiliated so thoroughly.
I also wonder if it's possible that Snape was in fact trying to shelter Harry from seeing James acting like a jerk. It doesn't seem to be in character, but I suppose it's possible. Snape certainly doesn't do a good job of conveying kindness and concern from what we've seen so far, but he may either feel this and be unable to express it, or be pragmatic enough that he felt it would keep Harry calmer not to see this and become upset--after all, Harry was upset enough about it to go to dangerous lengths to discuss it with Lupin and Sirius.
I guess we should also remember that he may well have had more than one reason for wanting Harry not to see it--and the more reasons he has, the more he'd want to hide it.
LevTRox - Oct 17, 2003 8:10 am (#425 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 9:11 am
Cool ideas.
I really hope Snape doesn't die, this would be a bit depressing and/or contrived.
Anyone ever watch Dr Who? Good seried (I was a bit obsessed at about 13 years old), but the most dull contrived bit of story line was the person who was theoretically on the good side but had a Snape-like attitude to the Doctor redeemed themself by sacrificing themself nobelly to save all of the "Nice People"
But JKR can't dissapoint us like this can she?!! She couldn't write something THAT naff?!!
Okay, mild hysteria over...
Snape's worst memory was plain humiliating and, incase no one has noticed, Snape has a real REPUTATION to keep up, he is the teacher who you quake in your boots at the though of and NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES someone who gets dangled upside down, see?
Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 8:13 am (#426 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 9:22 am
fidelio, wonderful ideas there about the "mother" issue. JKR certainly has given us a strong thread throughout the epic about mothers.
All of the mother characters--Petunia, Molly, Lily, Narcissa, Mrs. Black, Luna's deceased mum, Alice Longbottom, Gran, Mrs. Riddle (dying in childbirth), have I left any out?--represent some aspect of motherhood. A relationship based on a particular emotion--love, hate, uninvolvement, indifference, resentment--can possibly set a child on a course for life.
And, you are so right about people, espcially boys, I think, getting really, really steamed when someone insults their mother, often to the point of losing it. I think that is a universal response common in most cultures.
I've drifted a bit off the Snape topic directly, but I do think that Snape was hiding his rude and ill treatment of Lily by putting that memory in the pensieve. Maybe that wasn't the only reason, but you've made a good argument to include it on the list of reasons.
Ciao. Barb
Peregrine - Oct 17, 2003 8:18 am (#427 of 644)
Wow, there?s so much to talk about I?m forced to take notes. If this weren?t actually interesting/fun I?d swear I was still in school.
I really like the idea of Snape being ashamed of what he called Lily. I can see him wanting to show Harry what a jerk James was (to prove all of his snide comments right), but he wouldn?t want Harry to see that maybe, yeah, Snape deserved what James did to him. Maybe Snape wants to show himself as purely a victim. (I?m convinced there was something he must have done to set James and Sirius off in the first place?not that they should have retaliated the way they did.)
As for Snape being the new DADA?I?m hesitant to say JKR would break the pattern of new characters for the teacher. Remember back in the day when a lot of us thought she would break the pattern and bring in Mrs. Figg or Fluer? But, on the other hand, she broke the pattern of Halloween?. I don?t know, I?d say if she brings in a recurring character it?ll be Moody over Snape (but then, I never thought she?d kill Sirius, so what do I know?).
And lastly, maybe the reason Harry was able to break into Snape?s memories was because Snape wasn?t trying very hard. Either he thought Harry would never be able to do it, or he wanted Harry to break through so he (Harry) would know what it felt like when it worked.
Just a thought?or three.
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 8:45 am (#428 of 644)
fidelio: "I guess we should also remember that he may well have had more than one reason for wanting Harry not to see it--and the more reasons he has, the more he'd want to hide it. "
I like that idea. People are usually much too complex to have only one reason for things, and JKR has certainly shown us Snape's complexity.
Lev: "but the most dull contrived bit of story line was the person who was theoretically on the good side but had a Snape-like attitude to the Doctor redeemed themself by sacrificing themself nobelly to save all of the "Nice People" "
I'm hoping JKR doesn't do this. If she does, then she would have to be very careful in how she wrote it so it wouldn't seem too trite.
The rest of you on the "mother" thing:
I like your concepts of how the "mother" idea works. I've never been in the "Snape was in love with Lily" camp, but I could see him later developing respect for her in how she stands up to people who are doing what she thinks is wrong.
I can also see Snape not wanting Harry to see that entire confrontation for a multitude of reasons. I think Snape would be livid if he knew Harry felt sorry for him, he'd definitely not want his current reputation as a Potions Master and professor to be sullied, and while I don't think he'd care much if Harry were to be hurt by something he saw James do, I think he'd want to be careful of how those excess emotions would affect the Occlumency training.
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:01 am (#429 of 644)
Fidelio: I suspect that if Voldilocks had browsed through Snape's memories when Snape was much younger, he may have already seen these memories--what Harry saw in the Pensieve and the Shrieking Shack business. They'd have been much fresher and more immediately painful, and much easier to spot and draw out, and that much harder to hide, if Snape had any knowledge of Occlumency at that time.
Per usual, fidelio, you have given me more food for thought with eloquence and grace. I had thought of this too when I came up with my last little theory. I figured that Voldemort had come across them before, but that would have been, what, almost twenty years ago? And, then he spent 13 years as a spirit. At the time, Harry wasn't a specific target and so now would be the time Snape would be more worried about letting certain memories slip because now Voldemort has a focus for his manipulation - Harry, a bit of a sore subject with Snape anyway.....
I absolutely agree, though, that there were probably multiple reasons he was hiding that particular memory from Harry. If there weren't, it just wouldn't be our Severus, would it.....
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 17, 2003 9:02 am (#430 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 10:02 am
Weeny Owl: "[...] I could see him later developing respect for her in how she stands up to people who are doing what she thinks is wrong."
Try to replace Lily with Hermione. If Snape has this respect for Lily then I would expect him to behave similarly in in front of Hermy; at least a light touch of respect, but I never noticed anything...
Just a quick thought...
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 9:06 am (#431 of 644)
Laura:
I understand your point, but I think the difference is that Lily and Snape were contemporaries while Hermione is a student. Plus, Snape actually saw Lily defending him and hasn't really seen Hermione in action... yet.
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 17, 2003 9:10 am (#432 of 644)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 10:22 am
Right, good point...
I like your "...yet". After all, we've seen Hermy defending Snape on many occasions - maybe we'll see her standing up for his rights in public soon... or maybe she'll ask him to join SPEW?!?
S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:44 am (#433 of 644)
Oh dear, I have a question I would like to pose but I'm afraid of disrupting the flow of the discussion, it's going so well.... Okay, if this doesn't seem worth discussing, skip it....
We were discussing why Snape joined the DEs and why he may have left them and we got onto the subject of his childhood, his growing up in an abusive home, and his personality. Now, children who grow up in extreme situations (abusive parent, alcoholic parent, etc) usually tend to confront that situation in an extreme way when they're adults (they either become an alcoholic or go well out of their way to avoid alcohol all together, etc). If Snape were to have married and perhaps had a family of his own hidden away in some dungeon or in Hogsmeade or something, how might he interact with them? (Also keep in mind that these responses are like any other type of conditioning/learning and are usually specific to environment.)
fidelio - Oct 17, 2003 10:33 am (#434 of 644)
That's a tough one--I suspect he may have reacted by avoiding marriage and other close relationships. This may be because he's afraid he's too 'damaged' to handle such things and doesn't trust himself; it may be because he really doesn't have the skills to manage such things and so hasn't been able to lure anyone into a marriage or other close, long-term relationship. He may even have one or more failed relationships that lie in the past. Snape may even be able to attraxt women, but not know how to keep them interested. You need a certain amount of openness to keep a relationship moving for any length of time, and it seems like any time Our Sev manages to open up about his feelings/experiences/thoughts that it's in moments of extreme stress, and the results aren't too pretty. You need to know something about having a good relationship of any kind, in order to have them, and it seems like such experiences, even by exposure to how other people interact, have been rare for Snape. I suspect he has a better grasp of the medicinal herbs and potions used by the !Kung bushmen than he does of how a good marriage works, and DD may be a close to a good father-figure as he's ever had.
I can't help but feel, though, that if he does have a wife and possibly children as well, that DD, if he had any reason to feel things weren't going the way they should, would drop the anvil "Have you considered how much you are acting like your father?" on Snape's head.
Thanks to you all for rising to the bait about Lily, as well as the chance of mixed motives!
HarrysAngel - Oct 17, 2003 11:25 am (#435 of 644)
Hi, folks! My first post, and it's about something that's really been bugging me. A few pages back someone mentioned Harry's first occlumency lesson. I'm sure this scene is significant but I just wish I could work out how!
The first time Snape Occls Harry (or whatever the word should be!) and gets an insight into Harry's less-than-perfect childhood he's not much moved by it. But then they try again and three of Harry's memories are mentioned - the dragon in GoF, his parents in the mirror of Erised, and Cedric's dead body. This time Snape is described as angry and very pale. Why? After all, he knew about the dragon and Cedric's death.
Did it reminded him what Harry went through in the Triwizard - surely he knew already? I prefer the idea that it was the unexpected sight of Lily in the mirror. I liked what someone said earlier, about how Snape could have been talking about himself when he went into a rant about 'weak people' - was Lily his weak point?
Ideas anyone?
Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 11:35 am (#436 of 644)
HarrysAngel, good questions.
Two possible answers:
1) The "angry and pale" bit might have been an honest reaction to the murder of an innocent student by one's enemy. Remember, Snape is supposed to be on the good side now (and no one has yet convinced me totally that he's not), and this memory is of his arch enemy and the cronies that used to be Snape's fellow DEs.
2) It is possible that when one performs legilimency (which is actually what Snape was doing to try to get into Harry's head; Harry is supposedly using occlumency to block him out), one not only accesses the thoughts and memories but also the emotions to some extent. If this were how it worked, Snape would be feeling and echo of Harry's own emtions. It could also explain that business with Harry feeling like doing evil (biting Arthur, attacking DD) when he was having the connection with V. The emotional content flows in and out. BTW, this was one of the truly horrible bits in the book that really creeped me out because it opened up the possibilty that Harry could be "taken" (possessed?) and no longer be Harry.
Ciao. Barb
HarrysAngel - Oct 17, 2003 11:47 am (#437 of 644)
Oops, sorry, of course it's legilimency.
I like the idea that there's an emotional echo when you perform legilimency - although Snape didn't seem to pick up much from the first memories he extracted from Harry.
I just can't decide which side Snape's on. I think the bottom line is that he's on his own side...
By the way, Madame Librarian, I agree, Voldie getting inside Harry's brain is not a nice thought.
Weeny Owl - Oct 17, 2003 7:14 pm (#438 of 644)
Laura:
Yes, we have seen Hermione defending Snape. I think she'd defend him in public, and if she did, he'd probably drop over in a faint.
Sarah and fidelio:
I feel that Snape has had his share of... errr... romantic encounters, but I don't feel he's married or has children. I could see him puzzled and angry over a relationship not working out but never realizing that relationships can't be one-sided things.
HarrysAngel:
As for Snape being pale after seeing Cedric's body in Harry's memories, it could be that he was reminded of just exactly what happened that night... Voldie being reborn, Cedric's death, Barty Crouch pretending to be Moody, and of course... whatever it was Dumbledore asked him to do if he was prepared.
Rich - Oct 18, 2003 2:34 am (#439 of 644)
I think the angry part could be contributed to by the fact that Snape thought Harry wasn't trying hard enough in trying to block him out. And as for being pale, Snape's always pretty pale isn't he?
This was mentioned a fair few posts back about how Snape might have possibly intended to leave the Pensieve on the bench with that memory in it to show Harry 'something'. I don't think he meant to. He gave Harry the big 'don't wear your heart on your sleeve' talk a few weeks back and now he is pretty much - purposely - doing what he specifically told Harry not to do.
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 3:40 am (#440 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 4:48 am
On the Snape married topic.
Maybe he is married (possibly with children) and his relationship with them wildly differs from the others he's had in his life?
He might have a family who really love an respect him (perhaps enabeling him to reciprocate these feelings) whilst the rest of the world hate him, dislike him or are suspicious of him. This could make him a bit more hostile to everyone, give him a bit of a seige mentality; that the whole world is against his appart from his missus and kid(s).
Perhaps he dislikes Harry because his own son/daughter attends Hogwarts, and is, strictly speaking, a far better student (behaviour wise and academically at least) but does not get the sort of recognition they deserve (maybe the kid uses their mother's name to avoid the embarassment if being at the same school as their parent!)
Like to nominate anyone to be Snape's kid?
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 18, 2003 3:55 am (#441 of 644)
I think the kid would be probably hooked nosed and greasy haired. Nobody is described like that in the books. I would assume that if he did have a child they go to a different school e.g Durmstrang/BeauBattons. I have difficulty in seeing Snape married with children because he has so many issues.
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 4:19 am (#442 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 5:20 am
Maybe the kid takes after their mother and doesn't look much like Snape? And there are plenty of Hogwarts kids who haven't been described, for all we know Severus Snape Junior could be ANYONE! Especially if he/she didn't want to be known as "Snape" to avoid embarassment.
My cousin had a friend who when he was transfering to Senior School (at eleven) looked to change his name to his mother's maiden name for similar reasons.
I want to nominate Anthony Goldstein!
LevTRox - Oct 18, 2003 4:51 am (#443 of 644)
I have no good reason for this nomination by the way...
I really think if Snape had his own child who was "better" (better behaved, better at potions) than Harry he would feel more resentful towards a boy who hasn't exactly "earned" any of his fame, just got un/lucky .
"Why does Potter get treated like a hero and X get ignored?" "It's unfair, I shall show Harry he's just another student as is X" (I'm not seriously suggesting he'd name his kid X by the way!)
!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 18, 2003 5:10 am (#444 of 644)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 6:11 am
I don?t think Snape is married or that he has any kids?
On the topic of Snape being angry and pale:
I don?t really believe this (yet...), just thought I?d share my idea:
HarrysAngel: ?[?] three of Harry's memories are mentioned - the dragon in GoF, his parents in the mirror of Erised, and Cedric's dead body. This time Snape is described as angry and very pale. Why? After all, he knew about the dragon and Cedric's death.?
It was only the mirror of Erised that Snape didn?t already know about. Maybe his reaction played on that???
Emily - Oct 18, 2003 5:43 pm (#445 of 644)
Consider seeing you old school enemy, unexpectedly, in someone elses memories. Particularly that person's son, whom you hate as well. Wouldn't you be angry and/or pale, too?
schoff - Oct 18, 2003 5:48 pm (#446 of 644)
You know, you've got a point, Marauder5. Snape probably didn't expect to see a grown-up James in Harry's head. He probably would have assumed Harry wouldn't know what James (or Lily for that matter) really looked like, since he died when Harry was very young.
Rich - Oct 18, 2003 10:07 pm (#447 of 644)
Did Snape see what Harry was looking at in the mirror, or did he only see the mirror?
HarrysAngel - Oct 18, 2003 10:10 pm (#448 of 644)
Rich13, he saw James and Lily waving out of the mirror...
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 19, 2003 1:48 am (#449 of 644)
Snape said that he could only see snatches of what was in Harrys mind. This leads me to think that he may or may not have seen Harrys parents in the mirror of Erised. I think that he would probably have been more likely to see things attached to very strong negative moments more easily because it would make Harry extreemly uncomfertable. Its just a thought because I thought that Legilemency was about correctly interpriting the issues that you see if someones head and its not like reading a book.
LevTRox - Oct 19, 2003 6:58 am (#450 of 644)
This may be a bit off the current discussion but what was the old Potions teacher like?
Did they effect how Snape acts as the Potions Master?
Were they a real softie that let their students get away with murder and the subject slip?
Were they a real hardcase who gave Snape a serious reputation to live up to?
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timrew - Oct 19, 2003 9:06 am (#451 of 644)
A thought that occurred to me while reading the 240 or so posts that this thread has received since I went on holiday (!).
I noticed that there was a bit of a discussion as to why Snape became a Death Eater.
We already know that Snape was into the Dark Arts at the time that Harry saw him in the Pensieve. Perhaps he redoubled his efforts to learn the Dark Arts as a means of defending himself against the bullying of James and Sirius.
Perhaps also, he saw that he never would be accepted by James, Sirius and their crowd; that they just saw him as some kind of "whipping boy" they could use to show off their magic skills.
This could lead Snape (in time) to reject them altogether, leading himself to look elsewhere for acceptance.
Could this be one of the reasons that Snape became a Death Eater? Could he have been driven to Voldemort and his followers by the bullying of James and Sirius, especially when Sirius tried to kill him (in Snape's view) by leading him to a werewolf's lair?
LevTRox - Oct 19, 2003 9:22 am (#452 of 644)
I suggested many posts ago that the Death Eaters are the kind of organisation that would appeal you a young/dissolusioned/middle-class (I think) person like Snape.
It would give him a feeling of acceptance and perpose, and stop him from having to rationalise any of his feelings of rejection. Hating "mud----ds" and "muggles" could direct his general anger at the world into utterly irrational chanels which would stop him having to acutally *think* about working out his problems in a reasonable way.
I also don't think becoming a Death Eater would have been *too* difficult if the political climate JKR seems to be writing existed when Snape was young.
Ladybug220 - Oct 19, 2003 9:50 am (#453 of 644)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 10:51 am
Well, when HRH go to see Sirius in the cave in GOF, Sirius talks about the Snape he knew in school:
"Ever since I found out that Snape was teaching here, I've wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school ... Snape know more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." GOF, US, pg 531
If Sirius was not exaggerating too much then an 11 year old Snape knew more curses than most of the 17 year olds and was already into the Dark arts at a very young age.
S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2003 1:56 pm (#454 of 644)
I originally posted this on the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread but am moving it per request....
Another suggestion, though one I don't personally subscribe to: (OotP, ch29, pg670, US) "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other.... I think James was everything Snape wanted to be -- he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball...." We've discussed before whether it was possible for Sirius and Snape to be related, but the theory seemed, for the most part, unlikely. I've heard it suggested that perhaps it was, in fact, James and Snape who were related, that Snape was an illegitamate son of James's father and the knowledge of that was the reason the two hated each other so drastically. As I said, I don't personally believe it, but the person from which I heard it had an interesting case so I thought I'd mention it.....
Weeny Owl - Oct 19, 2003 2:33 pm (#455 of 644)
Sarah:
I don't believe it either.
I see James and Snape more the way I see Harry and Draco. With some people, there's almost an instant bonding, as if two people had been looking for each other for a long time. I've had friends I've just adored from the first "hello."
With others, there's been almost an instant antipathy. Something about some people just rubbed me the wrong way from the first meeting.
I can see them detesting each other at first glance because of something intangible, and then it manifesting itself into something more because of whatever happened during shared classes or in the hallways. James liked to hex people in the hallways and Snape was into Dark Arts... it's more an explosion waiting to happen.
schoff - Oct 19, 2003 5:39 pm (#456 of 644)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 6:41 pm
James and Snape who were related, that Snape was an illegitamate son of James's father and the knowledge of that was the reason the two hated each other so drastically
I dunno, I think this might have at least some merit. People are always going on about how Snape might be related to Harry through Lily. I don't remember much discussion that the two might be related through James' side instead. Harry, James, and Snape do have some similar physical characteristics.
Grant the Great - Oct 19, 2003 6:55 pm (#457 of 644)
I seriously (I chuckle every time I say "serious" on this board) :laugh: doubt that Snape and James are related. I'm hoping JK will leave affairs out of the series (this is backed up by the fact that she said nothing will be innappropriate for kids to read).
I see their instant dislike for each other as more of a senario like this: James, confident and already popular, sees Snape struggling to pull his trunk onto the Hogwarts Express. He slips and lets it fall, having hardly any muscle on his arms. OK, OK, I'll stop the fanfic (I don't see it as fanfic, just using my best methods to express a point, but some people do). Anyway, do you see my point? James sees Snape struggling to do something simple, and taking advatantage to laugh at him.
Also, two quick questions: if Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight? Is it that Snape knew the curses from a spellbook, but couldn't properly impliment them (hmmm . . . no wonder Snape doesn't like Hermione, that "[some word I can't remember, but is really good] know it all").
S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2003 7:38 pm (#458 of 644)
Grant the Great: if Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight?
Well, my guess would be that either a) James's just has better reflexes or is perhaps more gifted in magic than Snape, b) James caught up in magical skill and spell knowledge somewhere during those five years at school, or c) James came to school knowing his own share of spells.
Iman Khan - Oct 20, 2003 4:41 am (#459 of 644)
Edited by Denise P. Oct 20, 2003 6:07 am
Even after reading the scene in the pensieve, I still can't understand how Snape could bully Harry for something he didn't do. We're not even sure that Snape's memory, as it is shown is real or not. I think we may find out in later books what a pensieve really records, your thoughts and feelings of an event, or the actual event that took place. Back to Snape and Harry: I'm sure Snape knows how important Harry is in the 'war against Voldemort', why is he constantly telling him that he would personally have him expelled. Also in GoF, when Harry was telling truth after his name came out from the goblet, and since Snape is a gifted leglimens, why didn't he stick up for him? Did it bring back the popularity of James back to him? But Snape knows for a fact that Harry never calls attention to him,it's just attracted to him. Another question, do you think if the sorting hat put HArry in Slytherin, would that have changed Snape's attitude toward him?
the word i think is 'insufferable'
popkin - Oct 20, 2003 7:05 am (#460 of 644)
Edited by Oct 20, 2003 8:22 am
Go away for two days, and there are 50 posts to catch up on...
Thought Group #1:
Iman Khan: "I still can't understand how Snape could bully Harry for something he didn't do."
Its important to me that we remember that Snape is a mean man. He does things to be mean. He gets pleasure from inflicting suffering on others - especially by causing students like Harry, Neville and Hermione to be embarrassed. He enjoys humiliating people who can't fight back. I can't think of a time that Snape humiliated a teacher (other than Lockhart, who was constantly setting himself up for it). He brandishes his power in front of the people who are least likely to be able to protect themselves from it, and most likely to be intimidated by it: his students.
I'm pretty sure that a time will come, though, when he will rise against the powers that be. He's just waiting for the right opportunity to strike.
I really liked the idea someone had that Snape must have signed something (like the DA sign-up sheet that Hermione charmed to expose any traitors) that makes Dumbledore absolutely certain that Snape can be trusted. When the time comes that Snape betrays the Order and makes his power grab, Dumbledore will know immediately. That is, if he's still alive. Maybe the moment Snape is waiting for is Dumbledore's death.
Thought group #2:
About James, Sirius and Snape, the part I don't get is why were James and Sirius so cruel to Snape? He wasn't in their house. He wasn't doing anything to them (at least at the moment). And, Sirius really did intend to kill him when he sent Snape snooping on Lupin (Dumbledore confirms this.) And, what would the consequences for Lupin have been when he had killed a fellow student? What was the deal? James and Sirius are supposed to be the heros here. How did such hateful, self centered bully boys become loving, self sacrificing men?
Thought Group #3:
About James/Sirius/Harry (or any other wizard/witch) being related to Snape. Sirius and Hagrid both tell us that all the pureblood wizarding families are related to one another. If Snape is a pureblood, he would certainly be related to James and Sirius (and Harry). If this were the case and Snape had changed his name, Harry might not have noticed it on the tapestry.
If Snape is not a pureblood, then he would still almost certainly be related to James and Sirius (and Harry), but more distantly, by his pureblood ancestors.
If Snape is not a pureblood, he may be related to Lily through their muggle ancestry. But this possibility seems much less likely since there is never any mention of any kind of physical (or any other type) of similarity between the two.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 20, 2003 7:43 am (#461 of 644)
It was mentioned a couple of posts back about Snape knowing more curses than the whole of the 7th year. I see the worst memory scene not it terms of one wizard knowing more than the other but more in terms of inventiveness and quick thinking. James used a multitude of simple spells to give Snape grief i.e Scourgify, leg locker curse etc which were easyily available and come to mind quickly. This quick fire spell making did not give Snape time to react. James reacted quickest. In the scene Snape was consentrating on big curses and was having to use a lot of mental energy. The curse he sent at James caused physical damage rather than humiliation that James was causing.
Denise S. - Oct 20, 2003 7:44 am (#462 of 644)
Grant the Great: "If Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight?"
There's also the fact that we didn't get to see the entirety of the memory, so it's possible that he did in the end.
(Wow, I turn my back for a week and already I'm up to my eyes in Snape posts! o_O)
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 8:19 am (#463 of 644)
Popkin: What was the deal? James and Sirius are supposed to be the heros here. How did such hateful, self centered bully boys become loving, self sacrificing men?
Popkin, I think you should repost your "thought group #2" comments on the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread. I had posted some thoughts of my own on their personalities and would really like to know what you think of them....
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 20, 2003 9:12 am (#464 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 10:17 am
Popkin, you said ?Go away for two days, and there are 50 posts to catch up on...?. My thoughts exactly! (I told you all not to get too carried away..!!! heheee). This post isn?t as well organized as yours, Pokin (dividing it into different Thought Groups); what I?ve done is read each post and answer it as I go along, in M.Word; I then copy and paste the whole thing here, so I?m sorry if it?s all jumbled up!
Here goes...
I don?t think Snape put that memory in the Pensive so that Harry didn?t see how rude he was, I mean since when has Snape cared what Harry thinks of him? The only thing Snape demands of Harry is for him to treat him with respect (calling him ?Sir? or ?Master?for instance; but Snape knows that Harry loathes him and it doesn?t seem like he cares what Harry thinks about him, anyway).
Maybe he just put that memory in the Pensive because it was too much to bear?
As for Snape and a possible wife and/or child (or children), I think Snape?s is such a closed person, it doesn?t seem like he?d let anyone get too near, he?s been hurt before (family, school..) Well, if he?s married [in the BOOK (not counting Gina R.Snape, we know those two are married ?in real life?,hehe)] at least we know who he plays Wizard Chess with!
Harry?s Angel-welcome. I wanted to comment on your first post, I think you?re thoughts on Harry?s first Occlumency lesson were interesting. I couldn?t figure out Snape?s reaction, I think the whole Lily-mirror of Erised thought was very interesting (I don?t know if I agree, but it was interesting). And Laura (post #444), you said that the only memory Snape didn?t know about was the mirror of Erised thing. Even so, knowing about Cedric?s death isn?t the same as SEEING him lying dead (it?s even creepier when you?ve got your eyes open- this isn?t personal experience, I just imagine that it must be horrible seeing someone like that, with their eyes wide open... gruesome). So maybe Snape?s reaction was a combination of those two images he saw in Harry?s mind (Cedric dead, and Lily?s reflection in the Mirror of Erised). Someone also mentioned that Snape might have reacted that way (after ?seeing? what was in Harry?s mind) because of an ?emotional echo? .Now, if there?s an ?emotional echo? when you perform Legilimency, how come we don?t see Harry feeling anything when he ?entered? Snape?s mind (or memories ?whatever, you get the point!).
And as for his rant about weak people (I hadn?t thought of mentioning this before), I think Snape was describing the kind of person he used to be, but now isn?t. I believe if Snape?s upringing had been different, he himself would be different. I think JKR put that part about Snape crying as a little boy so that we could see how different he?s actually turned out to be. From what we know, he?s been through alot of pain, and that makes him shut himself up. Let all of this brew and then simmer for a long period of time, and we get the Snape we have today.
Timrew, welcome back! Hope you had a good holiday I read and re-read your post (nº 451), I agree with you, those are good reasons for Snape becoming a Death Eater.
Sarah, when I read post # 454 (which was yours), I instantly thought of the similarities between the Snape-James and Harry-Draco relationships and wanted to comment on it (Wenny Owl beat me to it though!). I think Snape might see his younger self reflected in Draco. But at the same time, Snape knows he?s with the ?bad guys?, so he shouldn?t be as nice to him as he is. But as it?s been discussed before, maybe it?s just his cover. And even if it is part of his cover, I still think Snape enjoys himself alot playing his part, as he hates Harry so much. But Snape knows Harry?s the good guy . Imagine a situation in which Harry and Draco?s life were in serious danger, and Snape could only save one of them- I strongly believe he?d choose to save Harry?s life. That?s just an example I?m using to show that even if Snape ?hates? Harry and treats him like he does, he knows that Harry isn?t really bad, even if he sees him as a ?mini James? (James Jr., if you preffer),.
Grant the Great (post nº 457), I actually put my hand on my heart and did a said someting along the lines of ?aaaw!? when I read about Snape getting of the Hogwarts express, hehe (how crazy does that sound!).
Popkin, you said ?Sirius really did intend to kill him when he sent Snape snooping on Lupin (Dumbledore confirms this.)?. Did Sirius really intend to kill him? He was too young, I don?t think he would have continued with the ?joke? if someone from the future would have told him ?hey, if you carry out your joke Snape WILL die? (um the ?someone from the future? sounded rediculous, I know, I just didn?t know what else to put). Sirius was young and stupid,and as he said in OoP, ?I?m not proud of it?.
Phew! I?ve just re-read this post, I?m putting it on the Forum now. Once again, I apologize for my jumbled up thoughts.
Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2003 9:43 am (#465 of 644)
Iman Khan:
When Harry's name came out of the Goblet of Fire, why didn't Snape use Legilimency and stick up for him?
I think there are a few reasons...
One: Harry is constantly breaking rules, and Snape would believe that it was just another instance of Harry doing something he shouldn't have done.
Two: Snape says that the mind is not a book to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Those who have mastered Legilimency can go into someone's mind and correctly interpret what is seen. Harry would have no memory of the Goblet of Fire since he never put his name in, so if Snape did use Legiimency, there would be nothing to see. Plus, I don't think a Legilimens can pick and choose what memories show up. Snape also says that Voldie almost always knows when someone is lying to him, but even if Snape has the same ability, he would probably have to actively use it. Back to the first reason, since he thinks Harry's just breaking the rules again, he wouldn't bother to look.
Three: He hates Harry. He wouldn't stick up for Harry in a situation like that. He may save Harry's life, he may do work for the Order that protects Harry, but he wouldn't give Harry the benefit of any doubt when it comes to a rule being broken.
As for the Sorting Hat putting Harry into Slytherin and it changing Snape's attitude? Whoa, that's a billion-dollar question. Since it didn't happen, there's no way of knowing how JKR would write such a scenario, but it could go either way, I'd think. Either Snape would have even more opportunities to punish Harry for what James did or he would start seeing Harry as a separate person.
As for Snape's attitude after Goblet of Fire, I was thinking sort of along the lines that Hermione was... Snape is in the Order now, and I thought Snape might see Harry in a slightly different light. I also thought that since he was present when Barty Crouch, Jr. confessed to stealing the potion ingredients and to putting Harry's name into the Goblet, that he might have realized that Harry was telling the truth all along and not be quite so nasty to him.
I do think that Snape's attitude can be summed up by what Dumbledore said... some wounds run too deep for the healing. JKR said in an interview that during OotP, Snape was 35 or 36. He was eleven or so when he first met James, so that would be about 24 or 25 years of dislike and hatred to overcome. As popkin said, he brandishes his power in front of the people who are least likely to be able to protect themselves from it. Harry is a perfect target.
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#466 of 644)
Iman Khan: Also in GoF, when Harry was telling truth after his name came out from the goblet, and since Snape is a gifted leglimens, why didn't he stick up for him?
Actually Snape is an expert Occlumens (OotP24 pg527 US), not a leglimens....
Denise S. - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#467 of 644)
A couple people have made suggestions as to why Snape would have left his memories in the pensieve alone with Harry Potter, a person everyone knows he hates.
By this point in the tutoring, Snape could have seen enough of Harry's memories to realize that Harry is no Wonder Boy living a charmed and perfect life, adored by all those around him. While his dislike did not lessen any, it could be argued that he had gained a modicum of respect or understanding (not a lot, but some).
By the point in time where Snape left the Pensieve alone with Harry, he would have seen rather far into Harry's background/personality/self. That, as well as the immense amount of fear of what Snape would do to him if he found Harry peeking into the Pensieve, would keep Harry from going anywhere near it--or so Snape would have thought. So, in his reaction, there would have been anger at Harry, embarrassment that Harry saw what he did, as well as a good deal of anger at himself, I'd imagine, for letting himself make such a humiliating mistake.
Peregrine - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#468 of 644)
I guess I got off easy?only 31 posts for me to sort through?
Do we know how Snape treats the Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws at all? Or do we just know that he favors Slytherin and hates Gryffindor? This may explain why he was upset about seeing Cedric dead. Since Cedric was a good student, it could be that Snape actually *gasp* liked him and was sorry to see a good student, and a nice guy, die for no reason.
I?ve always thought there was something else that happened that made Sirius angry enough to want to kill Snape--something more than just Snape trying to get them into trouble. I can see Sirius? act as being more for revenge, then just an idle prank.
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 12:58 pm (#469 of 644)
I agree Peregrine, but I think that argument is best left to the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread.
Actually, have we ever heard anything from Gryffindors not in Harry's year that suggests that Snape is that mean to them?
Grant the Great - Oct 20, 2003 4:57 pm (#470 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 5:59 pm
Yeah, SE Jones, Fred and George said something in the first book about Snape being prejudiced.
re: emotional echo. Umm . . . I think Harry did get an emotional echo when he delved into Snape's mind. Remember, he found himself on the floor (quite the echo to throw him backwards). Also, I'm guessing that Snape's pale face was just a rush from flying through memories that quickly. I mean, think of it as an adreneline high to speed through someone's mind and then abruptly stop back where you started.
Oh yeah, and I don't even miss a day and have 21 posts to catch up on. Geeze Louise! I think we need to separate the Snape thread into two (or more) threads: Snape's Death Eater Past/Betrayal and Snape's Mind Abilities and the Pensieve Scene. Anyone agree?
schoff - Oct 20, 2003 6:42 pm (#471 of 644)
Yeah, SE Jones, Fred and George said something in the first book about Snape being prejudiced.
Yeah, I'm not so sure Fred and George are the best people to be giving this quote, considering their probable behavior in his class...
Grant the Great - Oct 20, 2003 6:47 pm (#472 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 7:47 pm
Oh, I guess that might be so . . . hmmm . . . and I had such faith in them :mock tear:
Rich - Oct 20, 2003 7:06 pm (#473 of 644)
Could it be plausible that one of the reasons Snape loathes Gryffindor, and in particular HRH, so much is because he is supposed to appear as though he is a spy for Voldemort. So for the likes of Malfoy, who would probably report back to his father, he would have to be biased.
Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2003 7:43 pm (#474 of 644)
Sarah:
I thought Snape was experienced in both Occlumency and Legilimency since he used "Legilimens" to get into Harry's mind. Have I totally misinterpreted that?
popkin - Oct 20, 2003 10:02 pm (#475 of 644)
Weeny Owl, I'm sure you're right. Snape is an accomplished legilimens as well.
vanish forever - Oct 21, 2003 2:58 am (#476 of 644)
Snape is the head of Slytherins. And in all probability was a slytherin himself. In which case he HAS to be a pure blood. Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius' lapdog. And he does go out of his way to be good to Draco. So without doubt he is a spy. Maybe, pretending to the DE that he was actually spying on them. But in GoF, Voldemort does mention that there is one who has left for good and he will be killed and another who is a coward. The former is Snape and latter Kakkarof (is the spelling right?). If voldemort does know that Snape is a lost cause then how does Snape manage to spy on them. Or was he referring to yet another person, so that means he still considers Snape a DE. Which explains why he was not there in the Dept of Ministries when the other members of the Order landed up there to fight.
vanish forever - Oct 21, 2003 3:04 am (#477 of 644)
Snape is also a leglimens. And the reason he didnt read Harry's mind in GoF is probably because he is not supposed to brandish this particular talent about. Back to Sirius wanting to kill Snape - Scare is more like it. Maybe Snape had an idea about Lupin and would have publicised it to the whole school which would have made life miserable for Lupin. He may have been forced to leave the school even. Maybe Snape wanted to do that to get back at the Four. Sirius was probably peeved at him for nosing around and resorted to this.
Romana - Oct 21, 2003 3:35 am (#478 of 644)
Sorry I'm new,
Someone said that Snape HAS to be a pureblood. Why? It has been said in the books that the pureblood families are dying out. To be honest I don't think there would be enough pure blood wizard children to fill Slytherin, let alone pure blood wizards who have the right temprement to get in there. I think to sorting hat puts kids into the relevant houses regardless of wheter they are pure blood or not. I also find it significant that Snape is good at logic. I remember in one of the books it is said that wizards aren't good at logic, yet Snape is. So is Hermionie and Harry. I think Snape is Muggle born, or at least half and half.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 21, 2003 3:39 am (#479 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 4:46 am
I'm thinking maybe Sirius hadn't actually considered the possibility of Snape's death after falling into the joke's "trap". We know how mean he was to Snape (with this I'm not saying that Snape wasn't cruel as well, we don't know that for sure, or to what extent, but I'm just talking about Sirius now), he picked on him after the DADA OWL exam merely out of boredom. My opinion (so far) is that he just wanted to play a joke on him and hadn't thought about all the possible consequences. He WAs young and foolish, after all.... .
As for Occlumency and Legilimency, aren't those two faces of the same coin? (I don't know how the expression goes in English, so I've translated the Spanish version). Wouldn't an expert Occlumens be an expert Legilimens, and vice versa?
As for the hate-hate relation between Slytherin and Griffindor, my thoughts are these (this may not be appropriate for this thread, but I have to say it to make my point, which is appropiate for this thread):
Salazar Slytherin and Godric Gryffindor were best friends, but their differences "got the best of them" and so they ended up as they did (friendship complety down the toilet). When I say "differences" I'm actually saying that Slytherins and Gryffindors are exact opposites.
A Gryffindor, in his/her bravery, would put someone else's life before theirs (and that's just one example). Slytherins are selfish, so they'd always be doing things more for themselves than for anyone else, and Gryffindor's are very proud, which would make them have difficulties admitting they're mistakes. Gryffindors and Slytherins clash completely, that's why Slytherin's (in this case, Snape) treat Gryffindors (Harry, Ron, etc) more unfairly. Slytherins just don't like Griffindors, and they show it with cruelity and unfair behaviour. Gryffindors don't like Slytherins, but they show it differently (Harry hates Draco; despite this, he was somewhat protective of Draco in the Forbidden Forest in CoS). That's why DD could easily dislkie Draco, but he'd always be fair with him. Snape dislikes all Gryffindors and is mean and unfair towards them (that was my point). I'm referring to Gryffindors in an "inferior position" (students), not Gryffindor's on the same level as Snape (McGonagall).
Oh and I do recall Colin Creevy being terrified of Snape.
(oh, and Welcome Romana!). I'd comment on your post, but I can't because the reason why I think Snape is a pureblood is based entirely on a "hunch".
LevTRox - Oct 21, 2003 4:27 am (#480 of 644)
Maybe Snape's thing with logic is just the result of being an exceptionally intelligent wizard (which he clearly is)?
Slytherins are supposed to be shrewd.
Wendy Snelgrove [/b]- Oct 21, 2003 8:36 am (#481 of 644)
I don't think you can say that Snape must be a pure-blood because he is in Slytherin and all Slytherins are pure-bloods. The sorting hat considered putting Harry there, remember. Although clearly all that we've heard about Salazar himself was that he was a pure-blood racist. So I guess there is contradictory evidence here. But still, if the Sorting Hat considered Harry, you can't conclude that Snape must be a pureblood because he was in Slytherin.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 21, 2003 10:54 am (#482 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 11:55 am
Oh I wanted to correct myself, in paragraph nº3 of my last post I put "they're mistakes" instead of "their mistakes"...(oops)
Is there any evidence that Snape is actually racist?
popkin - Oct 21, 2003 11:12 am (#483 of 644)
Tom Riddle was also in Slytherin and was half muggle - but he was the heir of Slytherin, and I think that could have made a difference to Salazar.
Maybe Harry is also an heir, and so was considered for Slytherin even though he is of mixed parentage.
Grant the Great - Oct 21, 2003 5:48 pm (#484 of 644)
I liked whoever said about the two sides of the same coin thing. However, though I think the idea is interesting, I was always under the impression that they were separate skills. It's like art. You can be good at drawing but bad at painting. I hope I made that point clear.
On the subject of Snape being an "accomplished legilimens," as someone put it (please, someone tell me, is it "legilimens" or "legimens?" I've had my book lent out to this one family for MONTHS, grrr): I don't think we have evidence that he is an accomplished legi-whatsit. On the contrary, he may not be. He had to actually say the incantation when he was violating Harry. Harry has, of course, said that he has felt like Snape could read minds, but Snape has never been able to delve too deeply in the mind, as far as we know. I can't think of any incidences when he knew specifically something from Harry, rather just feeling emotions. I think this is a sign that he is not an "advanced" legil--dang it, mind reader.
Madame Librarian - Oct 21, 2003 6:01 pm (#485 of 644)
Grant--
The skill is called Legilimency; the wizard who has the talent is a Legilimens.
Whenever you have questions like this, the best reference can be right at your fingertips if you have the Lexicon also open. There is a search tool and a great index.
Ciao. Barb
S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 8:00 pm (#486 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 9:12 pm
Weeny Owl: I thought Snape was experienced in both Occlumency and Legilimency since he used "Legilimens" to get into Harry's mind. Have I totally misinterpreted that?
I'm sure he is skilled in both Occlumency and Legilimency, but he is only mentioned as being an expert in the former. Just because he can use the spell doesn't mean he's specialized in it.... And, I do agree that they are related skills, like Occlumency and fighting of the Imperius curse are....
vanish forever: But in GoF, Voldemort does mention that there is one who has left for good and he will be killed and another who is a coward. The former is Snape and latter Kakkarof (is the spelling right?).
Actually, I think Snape was the one to cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever. It is probably known that Karkaroff sold out fellow DEs to get out of Azkaban. As for Dumbledore speaking up for Snape being know, well, Lucius found a way to weasle out of his trial, he probably figured that's what Snape had done. Also, in GoF, Voldemort says, "How many will be brave enough to return when they feel [the Dark Mark burn]. And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?" Well, if some where brave enough to return and this person was "to cowardly to return" then wouldn't it figure that it was because he stayed away? Snape didn't show up immediately like everyone else did. He was by Dumbledore's side, supposedly, until he sent him away at the end of GoF.... Hm, hope I'm making sense here....
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2003 8:16 pm (#487 of 644)
I believe that Snape is thought to be a pureblood because of the "mudblood" epithet he hurls at Lilly (Evans) Potter in OoP when she tries to defend him when MPPW attack him. Your true feeling may show more in the heat of the moment, but then again, you may just want to lash out and hurt someone at that moment too.
popkin - Oct 21, 2003 9:56 pm (#488 of 644)
Susurro, it's why we wade through 50 to 100 posts to catch up on this thread, isn't it? Because Snape is such a fleshed out character, that we can't read him - in the same sense that Snape can't read Harry's mind. We can interpret, but we don't know if we've interpreted correctly. What are his intentions? Dumbledore trusts him; should we? Is he good, or is he evil? Or is he neither, but one who seeks power? We don't know, and it keeps us coming back here.
About occlumency and legilimency. There are probably several teachers at Hogwarts who have some skill in both. But, Harry needs to learn to keep LV out of his head. So, he needs an accomplished legilimens to fight off with his newly learned occlumency skills. That is why Dumbledore has chosen Snape to be Harry's teacher - because Snape is good enough at both to rival LV.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 12:00 am (#489 of 644)
Ok, I have read every single post in this forum, and I have finally decided to join in. First, I thought that Snape's reaction to seeing Harry's memories was because of seeing Cedric's body. I think that he cared that a student died. Remember when he found out the Ginny was taken into the Chamber of Secrets? Well, he also reacted then; he grabbed the back of is chair. Second, in reference to the whole "Does Voldemort know, or doesn't he," discussion that has reared its head every now and then... perhaps he knows that Snape is a spy, and he is feeding Snape false information to give to the order. Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department. Also, I have to vent this horrible thought that has been haunting me. JKR said that we will find out more about ghosts in later books, and that the happiest people become ghosts. *Sigh* I am praying that he does not die and become a ghost *sigh*. I think someone typed this thought before, but I just had to get that out of my head and onto a screen. And finally, I think that Snape has a strong very strong value system, and a certain amount of honor. However, I do believe that he does like to abuse his power, and torment children. He is not a nice person, at all. And I have always been a sucker for a man with honor, intelligence,and who is original. And, I really, really do not like Harry Potter. As a result, I forgive, laugh at, and appreciate his... tendencies.
Rich - Oct 22, 2003 1:11 am (#490 of 644)
It's a bit hard to appreciate Snape's tendancies when you consider the fact that we may not have seen Snape's true tendancies as of yet. He is not one to wear his heart on his sleeve (as he says).
But the things that you mentioned Tpujiko4444 about his strong value system I have to agree with. He respects those who express good qualities eg. DD, Mc-G, most of the staff and most of the Order.
I think the reason that he does not treat students with the same respect could have something to do with the fact that he thinks he is superior (which he kind of is).
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 22, 2003 5:31 am (#491 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 6:45 am
It was mentioned a few posts ago; "I think Snape was the one too cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever". I don't agree with this (as I've said on countless occasions); the reason I think Karkaroff is the coward is because when he sees his Dark Mark getting darker, he runs away-only a coward would run away,right? And Snape has stayed... . I mean it's like "if A=B, and B=C, then A=C" [Karkaroff(A)-runs away(B); who runs away(B) is a coward (C); Karkaroff (A)is a coward(C)]. And, OK, I know things aren't black or white, but I'm turning to a bit of logic with this one (can't think of anything else), I'm tired of basing myself on hunches.
Tpujiko4444, welcome. Also, have you posted anything on the Harry Potter thread? If you haven't, please do, you're the first person I've "met" that doesn't like Harry Potter, and I'd like to know your reasons. Thanks.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 7:26 am (#492 of 644)
I really do not have a strong opinion about who Voldemort was talking about during the "One has left me foreever..." speech. I was just offering another possibility.
Yes, rich13, I have also thought that he might be a lot worse than what we have seen, but I am hoping that he is not. And as mentioned before,when he becomes angry, especially vindictive, or whatever, you do see it. But in those times, in relation to Harry, he does retaliate, but he does so in relativly small ways. Granted he could not kill Harry, and I doubt that he would, but I am pretty sure that he could get away with punishments that are a bit more extreme considering Dumbledore's seemingly hands off approach.
Thank you for the welcome Rose Marie. No, I have not gone to the Harry Potter thread yet, but I will, and if I see a relevant topic, I will post why I do not like Harry.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 22, 2003 7:45 am (#493 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 8:53 am
Actually, about the "One has left me forever" speech I was quoting S.E Jones (post #486).
"Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department"; I think this was a very good observation, something those who think Snape's a spy for Voldermort to think about. But what if Snape's "job" was something else, something in secret? Like the "paper work" behind it all, working by Voldermort's side.... [but as a spy only, that's the only way he'd work for Voldie, I think (hope)].
Peregrine - Oct 22, 2003 8:51 am (#494 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 9:51 am
So Snape could be doing Voldy?s taxes?
I never really thought about it before, but if Snape did know what Voldemort was specifically planning, he would have warned Arthur about the snake. Maybe Voldemort doesn?t trust Snape and is feeding him false information to take back to the Order.
S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2003 9:03 am (#495 of 644)
Popkin: That is why Dumbledore has chosen Snape to be Harry's teacher - because Snape is good enough at both to rival LV.
My only point, popkin, was that that is never actually stated in the text, only that he was an expert in Occlumency....
Rose Marie: "I think Snape was the one too cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever". I don't agree with this (as I've said on countless occasions); the reason I think Karkaroff is the coward is because when he sees his Dark Mark getting darker, he runs away-only a coward would run away,right? And Snape has stayed...
Yes, Karkaroff is definately a coward, I just don't think he is the coward Voldemort was referring to. As I said in my last post, Voldemort says, "How many will be brave enough to return when they feel [the Dark Mark burn]. And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?" One can assume from this that he views who don't return to be cowards and Snape didn't return so he is viewed as a coward by Voldemort....
popkin - Oct 22, 2003 1:12 pm (#496 of 644)
I think Snape did return - but late. He could have said he was detained, "Sorry, LV. I came as quickly as I could." I think Dumbledore sent him to LV.
It is possible that Snape went polyjuiced into Barty Crouch Jr. But, then, he would not have appeared to Lucius as a loyal supporter of LV.
timrew - Oct 22, 2003 1:25 pm (#497 of 644)
As has been said, Snape could always give Voldy the excuse that he couldn't apparate in Hogwarts grounds. This would explain the delay.
Gina R Snape - Oct 22, 2003 7:27 pm (#498 of 644)
Phew! I've been dying to "catch up" on this thread for days. But, I didn't want to just pop in and out. A topic as incredible as Severus Snape requires, ne, demands my fullest attention.
It seems we are going in circles about some ideas, as is wont to happen on a big board like this. But I am just so proud that this thread is the busiest thread on the entire forum. And thank you, Rose for that little nod of recognition.
If the internet fan base is any clue, Snape has no problems attracting females. But one theme popular in fanfic which I offer up as a possiblity is that perhaps Snape deliberately does not have a mate so as not to place that person in harm's way. She would be a target for anyone who went against Snape. He may be so busy with his spying work that he doesn't have time. And if Voldy ever figured out that Snape wasn't really on his side, well you can be sure his wife and children would suffer the consequences.
As I've said before, I think Snape was "the coward" because that is how Voldemort would see things. We have to consider the Dark Lord's perception. Who is the traitor? Karkaroff! Who ratted out all the death eaters he could? Karkaroff! I suspect Snape went and prostrated himself before the Dark Lord, claiming that little problem of not being able to disapparate from the Hogwarts grounds (as mentioned by Tim). And I think he gets a great deal of personal satisfaction out of using his skills to fool the dark lord and do things behind the scenes and feel above everyone else as a result.
On a final note, I think Sirius didn't fully think out his little joke with the Shrieking Shack. I think he's bloody lucky that James intervened when he did. And I think Lupin had every right to be furious with Sirius for it. Snape could have been killed. Or, he could have been bitten. And if you all think Snape is nasty now to those he holds power over, I do not want to imagine what he'd do if he found himself become a werewolf.
zixyer - Oct 22, 2003 7:38 pm (#499 of 644)
As I've said before, I don't think Snape's spying on Voldemort. There's so much evidence on the surface that he is (he used to spy on Voldemort, Dumbledore mysteriously asked him to do something that was apparently very risky at the end of GoF, he tells Harry that it's his job to find out what Voldemort is doing).
When you look beneath the surface, it doesn't make much sense. Why didn't he know about the plan to lure Harry to the Dept. of Mysteries when it seems like all the Death Eaters in Voldemort's inner circle were there? If he is spying, how come he smirked when Harry outed him? I don't think finding out that someone you dislike knows you're a spy is an occasion for smirking (just look at the current events in the real world). Why has it been hinted at so often and, more importantly, so obviously that Snape is spying but never said directly? It sounds like it's a red herring to me.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 7:45 pm (#500 of 644)
I think that Snape would have trouble attracting a woman, even if he wanted a girlfriend. I think that a big part of his attraction outside of the book is because a lot of his fans really romanticise him. I think that in the Harry Potter universe, it would be much harder to do that. Also, I think that adult Snape would not be interested in getting married or having a girlfirend in general, and this is not even considering the safety reasons Gina pointed out.
A thought that occurred to me while reading the 240 or so posts that this thread has received since I went on holiday (!).
I noticed that there was a bit of a discussion as to why Snape became a Death Eater.
We already know that Snape was into the Dark Arts at the time that Harry saw him in the Pensieve. Perhaps he redoubled his efforts to learn the Dark Arts as a means of defending himself against the bullying of James and Sirius.
Perhaps also, he saw that he never would be accepted by James, Sirius and their crowd; that they just saw him as some kind of "whipping boy" they could use to show off their magic skills.
This could lead Snape (in time) to reject them altogether, leading himself to look elsewhere for acceptance.
Could this be one of the reasons that Snape became a Death Eater? Could he have been driven to Voldemort and his followers by the bullying of James and Sirius, especially when Sirius tried to kill him (in Snape's view) by leading him to a werewolf's lair?
LevTRox - Oct 19, 2003 9:22 am (#452 of 644)
I suggested many posts ago that the Death Eaters are the kind of organisation that would appeal you a young/dissolusioned/middle-class (I think) person like Snape.
It would give him a feeling of acceptance and perpose, and stop him from having to rationalise any of his feelings of rejection. Hating "mud----ds" and "muggles" could direct his general anger at the world into utterly irrational chanels which would stop him having to acutally *think* about working out his problems in a reasonable way.
I also don't think becoming a Death Eater would have been *too* difficult if the political climate JKR seems to be writing existed when Snape was young.
Ladybug220 - Oct 19, 2003 9:50 am (#453 of 644)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 10:51 am
Well, when HRH go to see Sirius in the cave in GOF, Sirius talks about the Snape he knew in school:
"Ever since I found out that Snape was teaching here, I've wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school ... Snape know more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." GOF, US, pg 531
If Sirius was not exaggerating too much then an 11 year old Snape knew more curses than most of the 17 year olds and was already into the Dark arts at a very young age.
S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2003 1:56 pm (#454 of 644)
I originally posted this on the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread but am moving it per request....
Another suggestion, though one I don't personally subscribe to: (OotP, ch29, pg670, US) "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other.... I think James was everything Snape wanted to be -- he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball...." We've discussed before whether it was possible for Sirius and Snape to be related, but the theory seemed, for the most part, unlikely. I've heard it suggested that perhaps it was, in fact, James and Snape who were related, that Snape was an illegitamate son of James's father and the knowledge of that was the reason the two hated each other so drastically. As I said, I don't personally believe it, but the person from which I heard it had an interesting case so I thought I'd mention it.....
Weeny Owl - Oct 19, 2003 2:33 pm (#455 of 644)
Sarah:
I don't believe it either.
I see James and Snape more the way I see Harry and Draco. With some people, there's almost an instant bonding, as if two people had been looking for each other for a long time. I've had friends I've just adored from the first "hello."
With others, there's been almost an instant antipathy. Something about some people just rubbed me the wrong way from the first meeting.
I can see them detesting each other at first glance because of something intangible, and then it manifesting itself into something more because of whatever happened during shared classes or in the hallways. James liked to hex people in the hallways and Snape was into Dark Arts... it's more an explosion waiting to happen.
schoff - Oct 19, 2003 5:39 pm (#456 of 644)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 6:41 pm
James and Snape who were related, that Snape was an illegitamate son of James's father and the knowledge of that was the reason the two hated each other so drastically
I dunno, I think this might have at least some merit. People are always going on about how Snape might be related to Harry through Lily. I don't remember much discussion that the two might be related through James' side instead. Harry, James, and Snape do have some similar physical characteristics.
Grant the Great - Oct 19, 2003 6:55 pm (#457 of 644)
I seriously (I chuckle every time I say "serious" on this board) :laugh: doubt that Snape and James are related. I'm hoping JK will leave affairs out of the series (this is backed up by the fact that she said nothing will be innappropriate for kids to read).
I see their instant dislike for each other as more of a senario like this: James, confident and already popular, sees Snape struggling to pull his trunk onto the Hogwarts Express. He slips and lets it fall, having hardly any muscle on his arms. OK, OK, I'll stop the fanfic (I don't see it as fanfic, just using my best methods to express a point, but some people do). Anyway, do you see my point? James sees Snape struggling to do something simple, and taking advatantage to laugh at him.
Also, two quick questions: if Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight? Is it that Snape knew the curses from a spellbook, but couldn't properly impliment them (hmmm . . . no wonder Snape doesn't like Hermione, that "[some word I can't remember, but is really good] know it all").
S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2003 7:38 pm (#458 of 644)
Grant the Great: if Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight?
Well, my guess would be that either a) James's just has better reflexes or is perhaps more gifted in magic than Snape, b) James caught up in magical skill and spell knowledge somewhere during those five years at school, or c) James came to school knowing his own share of spells.
Iman Khan - Oct 20, 2003 4:41 am (#459 of 644)
Edited by Denise P. Oct 20, 2003 6:07 am
Even after reading the scene in the pensieve, I still can't understand how Snape could bully Harry for something he didn't do. We're not even sure that Snape's memory, as it is shown is real or not. I think we may find out in later books what a pensieve really records, your thoughts and feelings of an event, or the actual event that took place. Back to Snape and Harry: I'm sure Snape knows how important Harry is in the 'war against Voldemort', why is he constantly telling him that he would personally have him expelled. Also in GoF, when Harry was telling truth after his name came out from the goblet, and since Snape is a gifted leglimens, why didn't he stick up for him? Did it bring back the popularity of James back to him? But Snape knows for a fact that Harry never calls attention to him,it's just attracted to him. Another question, do you think if the sorting hat put HArry in Slytherin, would that have changed Snape's attitude toward him?
the word i think is 'insufferable'
popkin - Oct 20, 2003 7:05 am (#460 of 644)
Edited by Oct 20, 2003 8:22 am
Go away for two days, and there are 50 posts to catch up on...
Thought Group #1:
Iman Khan: "I still can't understand how Snape could bully Harry for something he didn't do."
Its important to me that we remember that Snape is a mean man. He does things to be mean. He gets pleasure from inflicting suffering on others - especially by causing students like Harry, Neville and Hermione to be embarrassed. He enjoys humiliating people who can't fight back. I can't think of a time that Snape humiliated a teacher (other than Lockhart, who was constantly setting himself up for it). He brandishes his power in front of the people who are least likely to be able to protect themselves from it, and most likely to be intimidated by it: his students.
I'm pretty sure that a time will come, though, when he will rise against the powers that be. He's just waiting for the right opportunity to strike.
I really liked the idea someone had that Snape must have signed something (like the DA sign-up sheet that Hermione charmed to expose any traitors) that makes Dumbledore absolutely certain that Snape can be trusted. When the time comes that Snape betrays the Order and makes his power grab, Dumbledore will know immediately. That is, if he's still alive. Maybe the moment Snape is waiting for is Dumbledore's death.
Thought group #2:
About James, Sirius and Snape, the part I don't get is why were James and Sirius so cruel to Snape? He wasn't in their house. He wasn't doing anything to them (at least at the moment). And, Sirius really did intend to kill him when he sent Snape snooping on Lupin (Dumbledore confirms this.) And, what would the consequences for Lupin have been when he had killed a fellow student? What was the deal? James and Sirius are supposed to be the heros here. How did such hateful, self centered bully boys become loving, self sacrificing men?
Thought Group #3:
About James/Sirius/Harry (or any other wizard/witch) being related to Snape. Sirius and Hagrid both tell us that all the pureblood wizarding families are related to one another. If Snape is a pureblood, he would certainly be related to James and Sirius (and Harry). If this were the case and Snape had changed his name, Harry might not have noticed it on the tapestry.
If Snape is not a pureblood, then he would still almost certainly be related to James and Sirius (and Harry), but more distantly, by his pureblood ancestors.
If Snape is not a pureblood, he may be related to Lily through their muggle ancestry. But this possibility seems much less likely since there is never any mention of any kind of physical (or any other type) of similarity between the two.
Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 20, 2003 7:43 am (#461 of 644)
It was mentioned a couple of posts back about Snape knowing more curses than the whole of the 7th year. I see the worst memory scene not it terms of one wizard knowing more than the other but more in terms of inventiveness and quick thinking. James used a multitude of simple spells to give Snape grief i.e Scourgify, leg locker curse etc which were easyily available and come to mind quickly. This quick fire spell making did not give Snape time to react. James reacted quickest. In the scene Snape was consentrating on big curses and was having to use a lot of mental energy. The curse he sent at James caused physical damage rather than humiliation that James was causing.
Denise S. - Oct 20, 2003 7:44 am (#462 of 644)
Grant the Great: "If Snape knew more curses upon entering Hogwarts than most seventh years, how come he couldn't beat James during their fifth-year fight?"
There's also the fact that we didn't get to see the entirety of the memory, so it's possible that he did in the end.
(Wow, I turn my back for a week and already I'm up to my eyes in Snape posts! o_O)
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 8:19 am (#463 of 644)
Popkin: What was the deal? James and Sirius are supposed to be the heros here. How did such hateful, self centered bully boys become loving, self sacrificing men?
Popkin, I think you should repost your "thought group #2" comments on the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread. I had posted some thoughts of my own on their personalities and would really like to know what you think of them....
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 20, 2003 9:12 am (#464 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 10:17 am
Popkin, you said ?Go away for two days, and there are 50 posts to catch up on...?. My thoughts exactly! (I told you all not to get too carried away..!!! heheee). This post isn?t as well organized as yours, Pokin (dividing it into different Thought Groups); what I?ve done is read each post and answer it as I go along, in M.Word; I then copy and paste the whole thing here, so I?m sorry if it?s all jumbled up!
Here goes...
I don?t think Snape put that memory in the Pensive so that Harry didn?t see how rude he was, I mean since when has Snape cared what Harry thinks of him? The only thing Snape demands of Harry is for him to treat him with respect (calling him ?Sir? or ?Master?for instance; but Snape knows that Harry loathes him and it doesn?t seem like he cares what Harry thinks about him, anyway).
Maybe he just put that memory in the Pensive because it was too much to bear?
As for Snape and a possible wife and/or child (or children), I think Snape?s is such a closed person, it doesn?t seem like he?d let anyone get too near, he?s been hurt before (family, school..) Well, if he?s married [in the BOOK (not counting Gina R.Snape, we know those two are married ?in real life?,hehe)] at least we know who he plays Wizard Chess with!
Harry?s Angel-welcome. I wanted to comment on your first post, I think you?re thoughts on Harry?s first Occlumency lesson were interesting. I couldn?t figure out Snape?s reaction, I think the whole Lily-mirror of Erised thought was very interesting (I don?t know if I agree, but it was interesting). And Laura (post #444), you said that the only memory Snape didn?t know about was the mirror of Erised thing. Even so, knowing about Cedric?s death isn?t the same as SEEING him lying dead (it?s even creepier when you?ve got your eyes open- this isn?t personal experience, I just imagine that it must be horrible seeing someone like that, with their eyes wide open... gruesome). So maybe Snape?s reaction was a combination of those two images he saw in Harry?s mind (Cedric dead, and Lily?s reflection in the Mirror of Erised). Someone also mentioned that Snape might have reacted that way (after ?seeing? what was in Harry?s mind) because of an ?emotional echo? .Now, if there?s an ?emotional echo? when you perform Legilimency, how come we don?t see Harry feeling anything when he ?entered? Snape?s mind (or memories ?whatever, you get the point!).
And as for his rant about weak people (I hadn?t thought of mentioning this before), I think Snape was describing the kind of person he used to be, but now isn?t. I believe if Snape?s upringing had been different, he himself would be different. I think JKR put that part about Snape crying as a little boy so that we could see how different he?s actually turned out to be. From what we know, he?s been through alot of pain, and that makes him shut himself up. Let all of this brew and then simmer for a long period of time, and we get the Snape we have today.
Timrew, welcome back! Hope you had a good holiday
I read and re-read your post (nº 451), I agree with you, those are good reasons for Snape becoming a Death Eater. Sarah, when I read post # 454 (which was yours), I instantly thought of the similarities between the Snape-James and Harry-Draco relationships and wanted to comment on it (Wenny Owl beat me to it though!). I think Snape might see his younger self reflected in Draco. But at the same time, Snape knows he?s with the ?bad guys?, so he shouldn?t be as nice to him as he is. But as it?s been discussed before, maybe it?s just his cover. And even if it is part of his cover, I still think Snape enjoys himself alot playing his part, as he hates Harry so much. But Snape knows Harry?s the good guy . Imagine a situation in which Harry and Draco?s life were in serious danger, and Snape could only save one of them- I strongly believe he?d choose to save Harry?s life. That?s just an example I?m using to show that even if Snape ?hates? Harry and treats him like he does, he knows that Harry isn?t really bad, even if he sees him as a ?mini James? (James Jr., if you preffer),.
Grant the Great (post nº 457), I actually put my hand on my heart and did a said someting along the lines of ?aaaw!? when I read about Snape getting of the Hogwarts express, hehe (how crazy does that sound!).
Popkin, you said ?Sirius really did intend to kill him when he sent Snape snooping on Lupin (Dumbledore confirms this.)?. Did Sirius really intend to kill him? He was too young, I don?t think he would have continued with the ?joke? if someone from the future would have told him ?hey, if you carry out your joke Snape WILL die? (um the ?someone from the future? sounded rediculous, I know, I just didn?t know what else to put). Sirius was young and stupid,and as he said in OoP, ?I?m not proud of it?.
Phew! I?ve just re-read this post, I?m putting it on the Forum now. Once again, I apologize for my jumbled up thoughts.
Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2003 9:43 am (#465 of 644)
Iman Khan:
When Harry's name came out of the Goblet of Fire, why didn't Snape use Legilimency and stick up for him?
I think there are a few reasons...
One: Harry is constantly breaking rules, and Snape would believe that it was just another instance of Harry doing something he shouldn't have done.
Two: Snape says that the mind is not a book to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Those who have mastered Legilimency can go into someone's mind and correctly interpret what is seen. Harry would have no memory of the Goblet of Fire since he never put his name in, so if Snape did use Legiimency, there would be nothing to see. Plus, I don't think a Legilimens can pick and choose what memories show up. Snape also says that Voldie almost always knows when someone is lying to him, but even if Snape has the same ability, he would probably have to actively use it. Back to the first reason, since he thinks Harry's just breaking the rules again, he wouldn't bother to look.
Three: He hates Harry. He wouldn't stick up for Harry in a situation like that. He may save Harry's life, he may do work for the Order that protects Harry, but he wouldn't give Harry the benefit of any doubt when it comes to a rule being broken.
As for the Sorting Hat putting Harry into Slytherin and it changing Snape's attitude? Whoa, that's a billion-dollar question. Since it didn't happen, there's no way of knowing how JKR would write such a scenario, but it could go either way, I'd think. Either Snape would have even more opportunities to punish Harry for what James did or he would start seeing Harry as a separate person.
As for Snape's attitude after Goblet of Fire, I was thinking sort of along the lines that Hermione was... Snape is in the Order now, and I thought Snape might see Harry in a slightly different light. I also thought that since he was present when Barty Crouch, Jr. confessed to stealing the potion ingredients and to putting Harry's name into the Goblet, that he might have realized that Harry was telling the truth all along and not be quite so nasty to him.
I do think that Snape's attitude can be summed up by what Dumbledore said... some wounds run too deep for the healing. JKR said in an interview that during OotP, Snape was 35 or 36. He was eleven or so when he first met James, so that would be about 24 or 25 years of dislike and hatred to overcome. As popkin said, he brandishes his power in front of the people who are least likely to be able to protect themselves from it. Harry is a perfect target.
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#466 of 644)
Iman Khan: Also in GoF, when Harry was telling truth after his name came out from the goblet, and since Snape is a gifted leglimens, why didn't he stick up for him?
Actually Snape is an expert Occlumens (OotP24 pg527 US), not a leglimens....
Denise S. - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#467 of 644)
A couple people have made suggestions as to why Snape would have left his memories in the pensieve alone with Harry Potter, a person everyone knows he hates.
By this point in the tutoring, Snape could have seen enough of Harry's memories to realize that Harry is no Wonder Boy living a charmed and perfect life, adored by all those around him. While his dislike did not lessen any, it could be argued that he had gained a modicum of respect or understanding (not a lot, but some).
By the point in time where Snape left the Pensieve alone with Harry, he would have seen rather far into Harry's background/personality/self. That, as well as the immense amount of fear of what Snape would do to him if he found Harry peeking into the Pensieve, would keep Harry from going anywhere near it--or so Snape would have thought. So, in his reaction, there would have been anger at Harry, embarrassment that Harry saw what he did, as well as a good deal of anger at himself, I'd imagine, for letting himself make such a humiliating mistake.
Peregrine - Oct 20, 2003 12:39 pm (#468 of 644)
I guess I got off easy?only 31 posts for me to sort through?
Do we know how Snape treats the Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws at all? Or do we just know that he favors Slytherin and hates Gryffindor? This may explain why he was upset about seeing Cedric dead. Since Cedric was a good student, it could be that Snape actually *gasp* liked him and was sorry to see a good student, and a nice guy, die for no reason.
I?ve always thought there was something else that happened that made Sirius angry enough to want to kill Snape--something more than just Snape trying to get them into trouble. I can see Sirius? act as being more for revenge, then just an idle prank.
S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2003 12:58 pm (#469 of 644)
I agree Peregrine, but I think that argument is best left to the "Harsh Reality of James and Sirius" thread.
Actually, have we ever heard anything from Gryffindors not in Harry's year that suggests that Snape is that mean to them?
Grant the Great - Oct 20, 2003 4:57 pm (#470 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 5:59 pm
Yeah, SE Jones, Fred and George said something in the first book about Snape being prejudiced.
re: emotional echo. Umm . . . I think Harry did get an emotional echo when he delved into Snape's mind. Remember, he found himself on the floor (quite the echo to throw him backwards). Also, I'm guessing that Snape's pale face was just a rush from flying through memories that quickly. I mean, think of it as an adreneline high to speed through someone's mind and then abruptly stop back where you started.
Oh yeah, and I don't even miss a day and have 21 posts to catch up on. Geeze Louise! I think we need to separate the Snape thread into two (or more) threads: Snape's Death Eater Past/Betrayal and Snape's Mind Abilities and the Pensieve Scene. Anyone agree?
schoff - Oct 20, 2003 6:42 pm (#471 of 644)
Yeah, SE Jones, Fred and George said something in the first book about Snape being prejudiced.
Yeah, I'm not so sure Fred and George are the best people to be giving this quote, considering their probable behavior in his class...
Grant the Great - Oct 20, 2003 6:47 pm (#472 of 644)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 7:47 pm
Oh, I guess that might be so . . . hmmm . . . and I had such faith in them :mock tear:
Rich - Oct 20, 2003 7:06 pm (#473 of 644)
Could it be plausible that one of the reasons Snape loathes Gryffindor, and in particular HRH, so much is because he is supposed to appear as though he is a spy for Voldemort. So for the likes of Malfoy, who would probably report back to his father, he would have to be biased.
Weeny Owl - Oct 20, 2003 7:43 pm (#474 of 644)
Sarah:
I thought Snape was experienced in both Occlumency and Legilimency since he used "Legilimens" to get into Harry's mind. Have I totally misinterpreted that?
popkin - Oct 20, 2003 10:02 pm (#475 of 644)
Weeny Owl, I'm sure you're right. Snape is an accomplished legilimens as well.
vanish forever - Oct 21, 2003 2:58 am (#476 of 644)
Snape is the head of Slytherins. And in all probability was a slytherin himself. In which case he HAS to be a pure blood. Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius' lapdog. And he does go out of his way to be good to Draco. So without doubt he is a spy. Maybe, pretending to the DE that he was actually spying on them. But in GoF, Voldemort does mention that there is one who has left for good and he will be killed and another who is a coward. The former is Snape and latter Kakkarof (is the spelling right?). If voldemort does know that Snape is a lost cause then how does Snape manage to spy on them. Or was he referring to yet another person, so that means he still considers Snape a DE. Which explains why he was not there in the Dept of Ministries when the other members of the Order landed up there to fight.
vanish forever - Oct 21, 2003 3:04 am (#477 of 644)
Snape is also a leglimens. And the reason he didnt read Harry's mind in GoF is probably because he is not supposed to brandish this particular talent about. Back to Sirius wanting to kill Snape - Scare is more like it. Maybe Snape had an idea about Lupin and would have publicised it to the whole school which would have made life miserable for Lupin. He may have been forced to leave the school even. Maybe Snape wanted to do that to get back at the Four. Sirius was probably peeved at him for nosing around and resorted to this.
Romana - Oct 21, 2003 3:35 am (#478 of 644)
Sorry I'm new,
Someone said that Snape HAS to be a pureblood. Why? It has been said in the books that the pureblood families are dying out. To be honest I don't think there would be enough pure blood wizard children to fill Slytherin, let alone pure blood wizards who have the right temprement to get in there. I think to sorting hat puts kids into the relevant houses regardless of wheter they are pure blood or not. I also find it significant that Snape is good at logic. I remember in one of the books it is said that wizards aren't good at logic, yet Snape is. So is Hermionie and Harry. I think Snape is Muggle born, or at least half and half.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 21, 2003 3:39 am (#479 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 4:46 am
I'm thinking maybe Sirius hadn't actually considered the possibility of Snape's death after falling into the joke's "trap". We know how mean he was to Snape (with this I'm not saying that Snape wasn't cruel as well, we don't know that for sure, or to what extent, but I'm just talking about Sirius now), he picked on him after the DADA OWL exam merely out of boredom. My opinion (so far) is that he just wanted to play a joke on him and hadn't thought about all the possible consequences. He WAs young and foolish, after all.... .
As for Occlumency and Legilimency, aren't those two faces of the same coin? (I don't know how the expression goes in English, so I've translated the Spanish version). Wouldn't an expert Occlumens be an expert Legilimens, and vice versa?
As for the hate-hate relation between Slytherin and Griffindor, my thoughts are these (this may not be appropriate for this thread, but I have to say it to make my point, which is appropiate for this thread):
Salazar Slytherin and Godric Gryffindor were best friends, but their differences "got the best of them" and so they ended up as they did (friendship complety down the toilet). When I say "differences" I'm actually saying that Slytherins and Gryffindors are exact opposites.
A Gryffindor, in his/her bravery, would put someone else's life before theirs (and that's just one example). Slytherins are selfish, so they'd always be doing things more for themselves than for anyone else, and Gryffindor's are very proud, which would make them have difficulties admitting they're mistakes. Gryffindors and Slytherins clash completely, that's why Slytherin's (in this case, Snape) treat Gryffindors (Harry, Ron, etc) more unfairly. Slytherins just don't like Griffindors, and they show it with cruelity and unfair behaviour. Gryffindors don't like Slytherins, but they show it differently (Harry hates Draco; despite this, he was somewhat protective of Draco in the Forbidden Forest in CoS). That's why DD could easily dislkie Draco, but he'd always be fair with him. Snape dislikes all Gryffindors and is mean and unfair towards them (that was my point). I'm referring to Gryffindors in an "inferior position" (students), not Gryffindor's on the same level as Snape (McGonagall).
Oh and I do recall Colin Creevy being terrified of Snape.
(oh, and Welcome Romana!). I'd comment on your post, but I can't because the reason why I think Snape is a pureblood is based entirely on a "hunch".
LevTRox - Oct 21, 2003 4:27 am (#480 of 644)
Maybe Snape's thing with logic is just the result of being an exceptionally intelligent wizard (which he clearly is)?
Slytherins are supposed to be shrewd.
Wendy Snelgrove [/b]- Oct 21, 2003 8:36 am (#481 of 644)
I don't think you can say that Snape must be a pure-blood because he is in Slytherin and all Slytherins are pure-bloods. The sorting hat considered putting Harry there, remember. Although clearly all that we've heard about Salazar himself was that he was a pure-blood racist. So I guess there is contradictory evidence here. But still, if the Sorting Hat considered Harry, you can't conclude that Snape must be a pureblood because he was in Slytherin.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 21, 2003 10:54 am (#482 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 11:55 am
Oh I wanted to correct myself, in paragraph nº3 of my last post I put "they're mistakes" instead of "their mistakes"...(oops)
Is there any evidence that Snape is actually racist?
popkin - Oct 21, 2003 11:12 am (#483 of 644)
Tom Riddle was also in Slytherin and was half muggle - but he was the heir of Slytherin, and I think that could have made a difference to Salazar.
Maybe Harry is also an heir, and so was considered for Slytherin even though he is of mixed parentage.
Grant the Great - Oct 21, 2003 5:48 pm (#484 of 644)
I liked whoever said about the two sides of the same coin thing. However, though I think the idea is interesting, I was always under the impression that they were separate skills. It's like art. You can be good at drawing but bad at painting. I hope I made that point clear.
On the subject of Snape being an "accomplished legilimens," as someone put it (please, someone tell me, is it "legilimens" or "legimens?" I've had my book lent out to this one family for MONTHS, grrr): I don't think we have evidence that he is an accomplished legi-whatsit. On the contrary, he may not be. He had to actually say the incantation when he was violating Harry. Harry has, of course, said that he has felt like Snape could read minds, but Snape has never been able to delve too deeply in the mind, as far as we know. I can't think of any incidences when he knew specifically something from Harry, rather just feeling emotions. I think this is a sign that he is not an "advanced" legil--dang it, mind reader.
Madame Librarian - Oct 21, 2003 6:01 pm (#485 of 644)
Grant--
The skill is called Legilimency; the wizard who has the talent is a Legilimens.
Whenever you have questions like this, the best reference can be right at your fingertips if you have the Lexicon also open. There is a search tool and a great index.
Ciao. Barb
S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 8:00 pm (#486 of 644)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 9:12 pm
Weeny Owl: I thought Snape was experienced in both Occlumency and Legilimency since he used "Legilimens" to get into Harry's mind. Have I totally misinterpreted that?
I'm sure he is skilled in both Occlumency and Legilimency, but he is only mentioned as being an expert in the former. Just because he can use the spell doesn't mean he's specialized in it.... And, I do agree that they are related skills, like Occlumency and fighting of the Imperius curse are....
vanish forever: But in GoF, Voldemort does mention that there is one who has left for good and he will be killed and another who is a coward. The former is Snape and latter Kakkarof (is the spelling right?).
Actually, I think Snape was the one to cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever. It is probably known that Karkaroff sold out fellow DEs to get out of Azkaban. As for Dumbledore speaking up for Snape being know, well, Lucius found a way to weasle out of his trial, he probably figured that's what Snape had done. Also, in GoF, Voldemort says, "How many will be brave enough to return when they feel [the Dark Mark burn]. And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?" Well, if some where brave enough to return and this person was "to cowardly to return" then wouldn't it figure that it was because he stayed away? Snape didn't show up immediately like everyone else did. He was by Dumbledore's side, supposedly, until he sent him away at the end of GoF.... Hm, hope I'm making sense here....
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2003 8:16 pm (#487 of 644)
I believe that Snape is thought to be a pureblood because of the "mudblood" epithet he hurls at Lilly (Evans) Potter in OoP when she tries to defend him when MPPW attack him. Your true feeling may show more in the heat of the moment, but then again, you may just want to lash out and hurt someone at that moment too.
popkin - Oct 21, 2003 9:56 pm (#488 of 644)
Susurro, it's why we wade through 50 to 100 posts to catch up on this thread, isn't it? Because Snape is such a fleshed out character, that we can't read him - in the same sense that Snape can't read Harry's mind. We can interpret, but we don't know if we've interpreted correctly. What are his intentions? Dumbledore trusts him; should we? Is he good, or is he evil? Or is he neither, but one who seeks power? We don't know, and it keeps us coming back here.
About occlumency and legilimency. There are probably several teachers at Hogwarts who have some skill in both. But, Harry needs to learn to keep LV out of his head. So, he needs an accomplished legilimens to fight off with his newly learned occlumency skills. That is why Dumbledore has chosen Snape to be Harry's teacher - because Snape is good enough at both to rival LV.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 12:00 am (#489 of 644)
Ok, I have read every single post in this forum, and I have finally decided to join in. First, I thought that Snape's reaction to seeing Harry's memories was because of seeing Cedric's body. I think that he cared that a student died. Remember when he found out the Ginny was taken into the Chamber of Secrets? Well, he also reacted then; he grabbed the back of is chair. Second, in reference to the whole "Does Voldemort know, or doesn't he," discussion that has reared its head every now and then... perhaps he knows that Snape is a spy, and he is feeding Snape false information to give to the order. Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department. Also, I have to vent this horrible thought that has been haunting me. JKR said that we will find out more about ghosts in later books, and that the happiest people become ghosts. *Sigh* I am praying that he does not die and become a ghost *sigh*. I think someone typed this thought before, but I just had to get that out of my head and onto a screen. And finally, I think that Snape has a strong very strong value system, and a certain amount of honor. However, I do believe that he does like to abuse his power, and torment children. He is not a nice person, at all. And I have always been a sucker for a man with honor, intelligence,and who is original. And, I really, really do not like Harry Potter. As a result, I forgive, laugh at, and appreciate his... tendencies.
Rich - Oct 22, 2003 1:11 am (#490 of 644)
It's a bit hard to appreciate Snape's tendancies when you consider the fact that we may not have seen Snape's true tendancies as of yet. He is not one to wear his heart on his sleeve (as he says).
But the things that you mentioned Tpujiko4444 about his strong value system I have to agree with. He respects those who express good qualities eg. DD, Mc-G, most of the staff and most of the Order.
I think the reason that he does not treat students with the same respect could have something to do with the fact that he thinks he is superior (which he kind of is).
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 22, 2003 5:31 am (#491 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 6:45 am
It was mentioned a few posts ago; "I think Snape was the one too cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever". I don't agree with this (as I've said on countless occasions); the reason I think Karkaroff is the coward is because when he sees his Dark Mark getting darker, he runs away-only a coward would run away,right? And Snape has stayed... . I mean it's like "if A=B, and B=C, then A=C" [Karkaroff(A)-runs away(B); who runs away(B) is a coward (C); Karkaroff (A)is a coward(C)]. And, OK, I know things aren't black or white, but I'm turning to a bit of logic with this one (can't think of anything else), I'm tired of basing myself on hunches.
Tpujiko4444, welcome. Also, have you posted anything on the Harry Potter thread? If you haven't, please do, you're the first person I've "met" that doesn't like Harry Potter, and I'd like to know your reasons. Thanks.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 7:26 am (#492 of 644)
I really do not have a strong opinion about who Voldemort was talking about during the "One has left me foreever..." speech. I was just offering another possibility.
Yes, rich13, I have also thought that he might be a lot worse than what we have seen, but I am hoping that he is not. And as mentioned before,when he becomes angry, especially vindictive, or whatever, you do see it. But in those times, in relation to Harry, he does retaliate, but he does so in relativly small ways. Granted he could not kill Harry, and I doubt that he would, but I am pretty sure that he could get away with punishments that are a bit more extreme considering Dumbledore's seemingly hands off approach.
Thank you for the welcome Rose Marie. No, I have not gone to the Harry Potter thread yet, but I will, and if I see a relevant topic, I will post why I do not like Harry.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 22, 2003 7:45 am (#493 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 8:53 am
Actually, about the "One has left me forever" speech I was quoting S.E Jones (post #486).
"Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department"; I think this was a very good observation, something those who think Snape's a spy for Voldermort to think about. But what if Snape's "job" was something else, something in secret? Like the "paper work" behind it all, working by Voldermort's side.... [but as a spy only, that's the only way he'd work for Voldie, I think (hope)].
Peregrine - Oct 22, 2003 8:51 am (#494 of 644)
Edited Oct 22, 2003 9:51 am
So Snape could be doing Voldy?s taxes?
I never really thought about it before, but if Snape did know what Voldemort was specifically planning, he would have warned Arthur about the snake. Maybe Voldemort doesn?t trust Snape and is feeding him false information to take back to the Order.
S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2003 9:03 am (#495 of 644)
Popkin: That is why Dumbledore has chosen Snape to be Harry's teacher - because Snape is good enough at both to rival LV.
My only point, popkin, was that that is never actually stated in the text, only that he was an expert in Occlumency....
Rose Marie: "I think Snape was the one too cowardly to return and Karkaroff was the one he believed had left him forever". I don't agree with this (as I've said on countless occasions); the reason I think Karkaroff is the coward is because when he sees his Dark Mark getting darker, he runs away-only a coward would run away,right? And Snape has stayed...
Yes, Karkaroff is definately a coward, I just don't think he is the coward Voldemort was referring to. As I said in my last post, Voldemort says, "How many will be brave enough to return when they feel [the Dark Mark burn]. And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?" One can assume from this that he views who don't return to be cowards and Snape didn't return so he is viewed as a coward by Voldemort....
popkin - Oct 22, 2003 1:12 pm (#496 of 644)
I think Snape did return - but late. He could have said he was detained, "Sorry, LV. I came as quickly as I could." I think Dumbledore sent him to LV.
It is possible that Snape went polyjuiced into Barty Crouch Jr. But, then, he would not have appeared to Lucius as a loyal supporter of LV.
timrew - Oct 22, 2003 1:25 pm (#497 of 644)
As has been said, Snape could always give Voldy the excuse that he couldn't apparate in Hogwarts grounds. This would explain the delay.
Gina R Snape - Oct 22, 2003 7:27 pm (#498 of 644)
Phew! I've been dying to "catch up" on this thread for days. But, I didn't want to just pop in and out. A topic as incredible as Severus Snape requires, ne, demands my fullest attention.
It seems we are going in circles about some ideas, as is wont to happen on a big board like this. But I am just so proud that this thread is the busiest thread on the entire forum. And thank you, Rose for that little nod of recognition.
If the internet fan base is any clue, Snape has no problems attracting females. But one theme popular in fanfic which I offer up as a possiblity is that perhaps Snape deliberately does not have a mate so as not to place that person in harm's way. She would be a target for anyone who went against Snape. He may be so busy with his spying work that he doesn't have time. And if Voldy ever figured out that Snape wasn't really on his side, well you can be sure his wife and children would suffer the consequences.
As I've said before, I think Snape was "the coward" because that is how Voldemort would see things. We have to consider the Dark Lord's perception. Who is the traitor? Karkaroff! Who ratted out all the death eaters he could? Karkaroff! I suspect Snape went and prostrated himself before the Dark Lord, claiming that little problem of not being able to disapparate from the Hogwarts grounds (as mentioned by Tim). And I think he gets a great deal of personal satisfaction out of using his skills to fool the dark lord and do things behind the scenes and feel above everyone else as a result.
On a final note, I think Sirius didn't fully think out his little joke with the Shrieking Shack. I think he's bloody lucky that James intervened when he did. And I think Lupin had every right to be furious with Sirius for it. Snape could have been killed. Or, he could have been bitten. And if you all think Snape is nasty now to those he holds power over, I do not want to imagine what he'd do if he found himself become a werewolf.
zixyer - Oct 22, 2003 7:38 pm (#499 of 644)
As I've said before, I don't think Snape's spying on Voldemort. There's so much evidence on the surface that he is (he used to spy on Voldemort, Dumbledore mysteriously asked him to do something that was apparently very risky at the end of GoF, he tells Harry that it's his job to find out what Voldemort is doing).
When you look beneath the surface, it doesn't make much sense. Why didn't he know about the plan to lure Harry to the Dept. of Mysteries when it seems like all the Death Eaters in Voldemort's inner circle were there? If he is spying, how come he smirked when Harry outed him? I don't think finding out that someone you dislike knows you're a spy is an occasion for smirking (just look at the current events in the real world). Why has it been hinted at so often and, more importantly, so obviously that Snape is spying but never said directly? It sounds like it's a red herring to me.
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 22, 2003 7:45 pm (#500 of 644)
I think that Snape would have trouble attracting a woman, even if he wanted a girlfriend. I think that a big part of his attraction outside of the book is because a lot of his fans really romanticise him. I think that in the Harry Potter universe, it would be much harder to do that. Also, I think that adult Snape would not be interested in getting married or having a girlfirend in general, and this is not even considering the safety reasons Gina pointed out.
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Grant the Great - Oct 22, 2003 8:11 pm (#501 of 644)
"Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department."
I couldn't find who posted this, but I had copied it already. Sorry, whoever wants the credit. Anyway, I think that Snape did know about the plan to steal the prophesy. When Harry goes in after the Order meeting when he first arrives at 12 Grimmauld Place, he sees what appears to be plans of a building. I took those to be a map of the Department of Mysteries (you'd need one to navigate through there, especially if you were guarding it). However, I think that it goes back to the debate of how close to the inner circle Snape is. Obviously he's considerably close, because he wears the Dark Mark. However, I doubt that the Dark Lord tells any of the Death Eaters everything. I think maybe he sent only his most trusted ones to the Dept. of Mysteries to get Harry, and they may have not even known about the dream.
And, I will state my opinion of whether the Dark Lord knows of Snape's espionage, so that I won't have to ever again. I think that there are many choices, which I will leave up to JKR to decide which is right. They each have their reasons. 1) LV knows Snape is a spy and is using him to help lure the Order into his traps. 2) LV has no idea (yet) that Snape is a spy, and Snape simply came late or used the time-turner to get to the graveyard (heck, the no-apparating Hogwarts things is a perfect excuse). 3) LV knows that Snape is a double agent, and he thinks Snape is on his side.
I'll have to continue this later, because it's time for me to get some sleep (yes, that thing we all lack here), and my train of thought has just crashed, killing all aboard.
Weeny Owl - Oct 22, 2003 9:42 pm (#502 of 644)
I think Snape was well aware of the plan to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries. I also don't think he was smirking... something about "a curious and satisfied" expression. Snape may know about the plan only because of his work for the Order, but he may also know about it from being part of Voldie's inner circle. Either way, he knows much more than he's letting on.
I think Snape was the coward in the graveyard scene. He did tell Fudge later that Karkaroff had betrayed too many to be sure of a welcome back into the fold. I also feel he's not the one who has left Voldie forever because Lucius Malfoy was present in the graveyard scene and they're buddies. Umbridge said that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and if Snape were no longer considered a Death Eater, Lucius wouldn't be praising Snape.
Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years. Harry is fifteen, and he would have been over a year old when the Godric's Hollow fiasco happened. That was on Halloween, so Snape would have been teaching at Hogwarts for a couple of months. I think it was Voldie's idea to have Snape at Hogwarts.
Hogwarts is the safest place in the Wizarding World except for Gringott's. During a war, that would be one of the key places an enemy would want captured. I think Voldie's plan was to have Snape there as an insider so that after he killed Harry, he could send his troops into the school and basically control the entire British Wizarding World. He could take over the school, get rid of all the students who were not what he considered to be proper (non-purebloods, half-giants, any other half-humans he thought not worthy, any whose parents weren't supporters), and then turn his eyes to conquering the rest of the European Wizarding World. He could also get rid of that horrid Defense Against the Dark Arts class and make it a true Dark Arts class. Plus, with his henchman there, or so he sees Snape, there would be an even greater chance that he could finally defeat his nemesis... Dumbledore.
So, Snape not being at the Department of Mysteries and staying at Hogwarts would still be in keeping with Voldie's plans.
Aquiline - Oct 23, 2003 2:57 am (#503 of 644)
Hi to all the Snapeaholics. A couple of days ago I stumbled across this forum and well, just decided to sign up. I've read the complete thread, yes, but it's impossible to keep it all in mind...
Tpujiko4444: I perfectly agree that Snape would indeed have difficulties to attract women in 'the real world'. We, as readers, can imagine him the way we want him to be, we can pity and romanticise him, find all kinds of excuses. But let's face it: who wants a bad mooded, sarcastic, bitter man with greasy hair and yellow teeth to send her pickled cockroaches? Thank you very much. But well, he might now be using the looks that once helped his outsider-career to keep people from getting too close to him. Maybe because he doesn't want to endanger a potential lover or, much more likely, to protect himself from getting scared for somebody. Snape tells us/Harry in the Occlumency lesson that Voldemort uses a persons fears as a weapon.
The spying thing is something I?ve, too, been wondering about: I don?t think Snape was present at Voldemorts ?rebirthing party?, simply because he was at Hogwarts when Harry returned: Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape come to get Harry from Moody. Snape might have had the time to leave Hogwarts grounds and apparate at the graveyard, but he never could have made it back and join the triumvirate so quickly. And I think that, if Snape is mentioned at the graveyard, he is the one Voldemort ? thinks has left me for good?. Snape might have managed to change Voldemorts mind later as he is in such a good position at Hogwarts. I tend to believe that Dumbledore sent Snape back to Voldemort to continue his spying job. Or maybe just start it? Anyway, it puts Snape into a bizarre position. Both, Dumbledore and Voldemort, are extremely powerful wizards and highly skilled Legilimens, and neither of them is extremely stupid. Neither of them can give Snape critical information, given the risk he might give them away - whether out of his free will or not! So Snape is pretty much worthless as a spy , except he maybe can tap Lucius for information. Snape rather seems to be some kind of play ball in Voldemorts and Dumbledores plans, something like a Bludger or the Quaffle in Quidditch terms. And I can?t see Snape deliberately bringing himself into such a position.
Weeny Owl (in post 502) says ?I think it was Voldie's idea to have Snape at Hogwarts?...
Well, as much as I like the thought, I don?t think it?s possible. That would mean that Voldemort gave some information to Snape to pass it to Dumbledore (or one of his crowd) so he could be taken for a spy. Then Snape must have been caught or let himself get caught (without getting avadakedavra?d!) and put into Azkaban. Then Dumbledore comes and saves Snape by vouching for him and takes him into Hogwarts before Voldemorts downfall, just as Voldemort had planned? It would have had to be some crucial piece of information that Snape gave to Dumbledore to assure him that Snape is on his side and cause him to get Snape out of prison. Information of the kind you simply can?t give away to your enemy. Especially not on such a little chance for your plan to work out.
One last question: What do you think Snape?s Boggart would look like?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 3:26 am (#504 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 4:33 am
Gina R.Snape: I'm also completely sure that Sirius didn't think out his little "joke" on Snape, he was young and stupid (he himself, in OoP, said he wasn't proud of it), and I think if he had known that Snape would have most probably end up being killed, he wouldn't have gone through with it.
Zixyer: "Why didn't he know about the plan to lure Harry to the Dept. of Mysteries when it seems like all the Death Eaters in Voldemort's inner circle were there?" I pointed out in my last post that maybe he was behind the plan (only I used "doing the paperwork" to express myself,hehe); then someone (can't remember who it was) made a very good point: why didn't Snape warn the Order Members? Ok, so maybe he didn't know... so what if Voldie's circle are in on Snape? This is, if Snape is a spy that's "infiltrated". Maybe they know what Snape is up to (spying on them) and they've decided to play his little game, and kill him in the end for the "traitor that he is".
Maybe he's a spy, but isn't an infiltrated one....maybe he's just spying on them from the outside (like a vampire for example, but I've repeated a thousand times in the "Is Snape a Vampire?" thread that I don't think he's a vampire... it was an example, he could go as a spider, for example, etc etc (unregistered animangus, maybe?).
But I'm also taking into consideration Grant the Great's last post (#501): "I doubt that the Dark Lord tells any of the Death Eaters everything. I think maybe he sent only his most trusted ones to the Dept. of Mysteries to get Harry, and they may have not even known about the dream". That was a very, very good point. We've seen that LV thinks some DE's are foolish and stupid. He would be more than happy to kill the ones he thinks could stumble and ruin things for him because of their stupidity, but in the meantime,he needs all the support he can get.
Of course, Weeny Owl also made a very good point (post #502): "Umbridge said that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and if Snape were no longer considered a Death Eater, Lucius wouldn't be praising Snape".
So now that makes me believe that maybe he is an infiltrated spy...
I still like the idea of Snape being an animangus, though. It just occured to me (I don't know if it's been discussed or even mentioned before).
And welcome Aquiline! What would Snape's boggart look like? Good question! Maybe his mother dead?
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 3:49 am (#505 of 644)
Maybe it would look like himself with a red purse and wearing a vulture hat?
It occurs to me that Lucius may not care if Snape is a traitor. He is willing to use anyone to achieve his purposes. So, since Snape treats Draco so well, maybe Lucius overlooks the fact that Snape has betrayed LV. Afterall, if Lucius could get by with it (being the slippery guy that he is), he might do the same.
That clears the road for Snape to impersonate Barty Jr. to get into the inner circle (while Lucius plays both sides of the coin). The Barty Jr. impersonation makes sense to me because there is no evidence, so far, that LV knows Barty Jr. is out of the picture. Then the question is why weren't the Order forwarned of the exact date of the break-in?
Maybe Snape was so put out with Harry about the pensieve betrayal that he didn't care if Harry got caught by a DE ambush? Maybe he wanted revenge on Sirius and expected things to go exactly as they did (minus five additional students)?
OR, maybe LV knows something about Barty Jr. that we don't and considers him to be a traitor for some reason. That would clear the road for Snape to be the faithful servant at Hogwarts.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 7:15 am (#506 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:37 am
Whoa! (I've just fallen off my chair,hehe). Snape his faithful servant? A completely different point of view. Hmm... (I don't agree but "hmm..." just the same, hehee).
If Snape had to impersonate Barty Jr., it would be waaaay too risky, because Barty Jr. is dead, so he's got no Verasiterum to take; Snape doesn't know everything there is to know about him, is there? Surely LV knows more about him than Snape does? If this is true, Snape could make a mistake and LV would catch on soon. Wouldn't it be foolish of Snape to do that impersonate Barty Jr.?
If the Boggart looked like himself with a red purse and vulture hat, that would mean that he himself is what most frightens him.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 7:25 am (#507 of 644)
Edited by Oct 23, 2003 8:29 am
Barty isn't actually dead. He's had his soul sucked out. So he's alive, but without a soul - thus "worse than dead". I thought that was why JKR did it that way - so that he would be around to supply the hairs (or whatever) to add to the polyjuice potion (which Barty must have had around already, since he was using it). I suppose that Snape might be able to freely peruse Barty's memories while he is in an almost catatonic state? If he's impersonating Barty Jr., Snape certainly has some way to make a convincing show of it.
About the purse and hat - I was referring to a loss of decorum, or a loss of esteem or fright factor, or respect. Snape was mortified by the whole boggart lesson that Lupin conducted. I think he's very afraid of being laughed at.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 7:36 am (#508 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:49 am
Oops!, you're completely right, Barty isn't dead... well he can't talk, so Snape would have to use his Occlumency skills to peruse Barty's memories, as you said Popkin. But when he does that, he would only get little "peeks" of Barty Jr's life, through mere flashes, wouldn't he? It would take too long to get the information he needs. Not only that, he can't choose what memories he can have access to; so he could get many flashes of things that have nothing to do with LV or his connection with Barty Jr, and that wouldn't get Snape far. Not only this, but he wouldn't be sure of everything he saw -in Harry's first Occlumency lesson, Snape sees Marge's dog, but he doesn't know who it belongs to or where it came from.
Assuming he has a faster, more efficent way of having access to Barty's memories (or assuming he has a better way to know about Barty Jr. altogether), the idea of him spying on Voldermort disguised as Barty Jr. is quite good, and plausible.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 8:06 am (#509 of 644)
Aqualine, welcome! I can already tell we're going to have a lot of fun debates.
"Then Dumbledore comes and saves Snape by vouching for him and takes him into Hogwarts before Voldemorts downfall, just as Voldemort had planned?"
No, Dumbledore doesn't save Snape by vouching for him... what Dumbledore knows about Snape in order to vouch for him would have happened much earlier. I think something happened, or maybe a few somethings, that led to Snape going to Dumbledore. Giving Dumbledore crucial info wouldn't be enough either... Dumbledore would have to know deep in his heart why Snape changed sides, and a bit of information wouldn't do it.
The idea of having someone at Hogwarts would have been part of the long-range plan. Hogwarts needed a DADA teacher and a Potions Master, and Snape applied for the DADA position. Dumbledore gave him the Potions Master position, and Voldie thought that was better than nothing.
Voldie says that the one he believes has left him forever will be killed. Voldie knows where Snape is, Lucius knows where Snape is... there would be plenty of opportunities to kill Snape if Voldie thought he was the one who had left forever.
popkin: As to the date of the break-in, Snape (or Snape as Crouch, Jr.) wouldn't know about the exact date because Harry didn't know himself that he was going. Snape let the Order know as soon as he could. Lucius said that Voldie had wondered why Harry hadn't come earlier, but Voldie didn't realize Harry didn't know about the Prophecy.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella [/b]- Oct 23, 2003 8:14 am (#510 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 9:17 am
Weeny Owl, sorry but I don't understand last paragraph! Could you explain it again please? Thanks alot.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 8:35 am (#511 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 9:36 am
Sure, Rose.
popkin said: "That clears the road for Snape to impersonate Barty Jr. to get into the inner circle (while Lucius plays both sides of the coin). The Barty Jr. impersonation makes sense to me because there is no evidence, so far, that LV knows Barty Jr. is out of the picture. Then the question is why weren't the Order forwarned of the exact date of the break-in?"
I took popkin to mean breaking into the Department of Mysteries, although I could have misunderstood.
If it is the exact date of the break-in at the DoM, then no one would be able to tell the Order because Harry's decision to go to the Ministry wasn't planned... it was made only after the last "dream" with Sirius being tortured. When Snape realized what had happened, he let the Order know. Lucius had said that Voldie was wondering why Harry hadn't come earlier, and then laughed when Harry had no idea what the Prophecy was.
Peregrine - Oct 23, 2003 8:41 am (#512 of 644)
Okay, I?m confused? Are we thinking that Snape didn?t know Voldemort was trying to lure Harry to the MOM to get the Prophesy? Because if that?s the case, what?s the point of the Occlumency lessons? I thought the whole reason Dumbledore set that up was so Voldemort couldn?t trick Harry into going to the MOM (and obviously because he didn?t want Voldemort reading Harry?s mind in general). Isn?t that why Snape was so angry with Harry when he was still dreaming about the hallway and that he realized where the hallway was?
What am I missing?
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 10:27 am (#513 of 644)
I'm quite sure Snape knew the plan, and that was why he was so alarmed when he saw that Harry was still having the dreams.
To me, it makes no sense at all that Snape would be using polyjuice to impersonate Barty Crouch Jr. He could not keep that up indefitely. Wouldn't the wizarding world be made aware of Barty's situation. For that matter, wouldn't Voldemort know Barty well enough after a while to tell the difference? Finally, I think he would get suspicious if Barty and Snape were summoned with the rest and never appeared at the same time.
I also don't think Voldemort sent those he most trusted to the MoM. I think he strategically sent those most effective and easily able to reach it. The entire group of DEs weren't there. And, they may be off doing other things. With that in mind, it wouldn't make sense for him to send Snape when Snape is busy at Hogwarts. (Especially if you subscribe to the theory---which I do---that Voldemort thinks he placed Snape there).
Finally, did Snape go to Azkaban? I thought he was vouched for by Dumbledore, but I don't recall any mention of Dumbledore physically getting him out of Azkaban--just out of going to Azkaban.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 11:00 am (#514 of 644)
Thanks alot for clearing that up, Weeny Owl. And, your theory makes sense. But:
You said: "Lucius had said that Voldie was wondering why Harry hadn't come earlier, and then laughed when Harry had no idea what the Prophecy was".
So I don't get it, why do you assume he laughed at Harry? I just assumed, when I read the book, that he was just making Harry feel foolish (which he accomplished)...
And about him wondering why Harry took so long to get there, I think it was because of the image everyone had, at that time, of Harry (the one who likes being the hero and saving the day). He thought that Harry would go to the MoM after seeing Arthur's attack, right? Or that his curiosity would get the best of him, I think he said (or something along those lines, maybe?). That's what I thought. What were you trying to say when you said that Lucius had laughed at him?
As for Snape going to Azkaban, no, I don't think he ever did..well, it hasn't been mentioned before.
fidelio - Oct 23, 2003 11:10 am (#515 of 644)
Remember, Bellatrix made fun of Harry as well--all that baby-talk of hers, and the reference to thinking what he had dreamed was real? I believe the DEs thought that had Harry at a disadvantage, and were happy to humiliate this little thorn in all their sides.
I get the feeling Snape may have been aware that Voldy had some plot on to get to the prophecy, and when Harry described the scene he was dreaming, realized Voldy was trying to set Harry up. He didn't tell Harry what might be in the Dept. of Mysteries--perhaps because he didn't want to stir Harry's curiosity, in the hope that the less Harry knew, the less he'd be interested [fat chance!]However, I don't think Snape knew for sure when, or if, Voldy would be able to break through and manage to get Harry into the Dept. of Mysteries--how could he? Voldy didn't know--all he could do was keep planting thoughts in Harry's mind, and hope that sooner or later, Harry would take the bait.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 11:38 am (#516 of 644)
You're right Gina: "To me, it makes no sense at all that Snape would be using polyjuice to impersonate Barty Crouch Jr. He could not keep that up indefitely. Wouldn't the wizarding world be made aware of Barty's situation."
The only time Snape could have used a Barty Jr. disguise would have been the first time he went to see LV following the third task. Fudge knew about the kiss, so Lucius would have found out right away.
I'd been kind of kicking that idea around in my head for quite a while. Post it on the forum one day, and - POOF - it's gone. Just goes to show a dozen heads are better than one.
As to Harry just having a dream one day and panicking himself into the DOM - I didn't think it happened like that. That incident was planned by LV. The guards were disposed of, or lured away. The Death Eaters were in place in the prophecies "stacks". They couldn't have been ready in that way (guards gone, DEs in stacks) every day since Harry "snaked out", could they? I thought that LV had known he would get through to Harry that day using one of his favorite "weapons" - a person's blind love for an endangered loved one - in this case Harry's love for a tortured Sirius.
The only surprise was that Harry didn't come alone. All the communications lines were down, and had been for some time. Kreacher was known to be disloyal to Sirius. Umbridge and the obedient ministry officials had gotten rid of McGonnagal and Hagrid. I can't remember where Dumbledore was - but I bet LV knew he wouldn't be available to help. I think Umbridge was going to "let" Harry go to the DOM sans wand - but, her plan was thwarted when the six bested the death nibblers, etc...
Anyway, the way I see it, Snape either sat on the information about which day the break in would take place, or he missed that LV staff meeting due to Hogwarts duties. ("Begging your pardon, Dark Lord, but we have O.W.L.'s that week and I can't possibly make it.")
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 12:05 pm (#517 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 1:20 pm
Linda, I think Dumbledore specifically instructed Snape not to let on about the prophecy to Harry. I interpret this in his choice of words during the occlumency lessons. "You are neither special nor needed" (paraphrasing) was, in my opinion, a deliberate ploy to both cool Harry's heels and conceal the true nature of Harry's role in things until Dumbledore was ready to tell Harry.
As I've stated previously (what, 300 posts ago?) the whole conversation between Snape and Harry when Snape is choosing his words very carefully is emblematic of JKR's superb skills and, in effect, Snape's ability to follow Dumbledore's orders, and give one impression, but actually be doing something else. (In this case, Snape was both teaching occlumency and gathering information from Harry's mind on what Voldemort was up to). Snape was walking an extremely perilous tight-rope in those lessons and it's a testament to both his dedication and his skills that he did it as long as he did.
fidelio - Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm (#518 of 644)
I see your point, popkin. However, I think we can have it both ways--Voldy and the DEs had the planning all in place for the day when Voldy broke through with Harry, but they may not have been sure when the exact time and the exact day would be--it would depend on just when he managed to plant the idea in Harry's mind that Sirius was in danger, which may have taken more than one or two tries. At least, if I were in Voldy's shoes, I would have hoped to made it through with the idea of Sirius in danger the first time, but not counted on it. After all, the wretched boy may have been making progress with the occlumency after all!
However, it seems logical that at some time during exams, Harry would have been tired and distracted, and his ability to concentrate diminished, so that that would be the best time to try and work on him, hoping sooner or later to break through--and sooner rather than later! The effort to take out the guards, and so on, could have gone into play as soon as Voldy was sure Harry had taken the bait. Sort of like a commando operation, they already had their ground checked out, and a plan in place--all they needed was the order to go into action. In comparison, the planning for D-Day in June 1944 was set up in detail, and they had a choice of dates lined up, depending on tides, moon phases and so on--as soon as the weather was right, they were ready to go. Everyone had their assigned duties, and knew what to do, once the order to go went out.
As for Snape's part in this--he may have had some idea of what was planned, but since Voldy and his strike force weren't sure of the exact attack date, there's no way he could know. Also, this plan may not have been in general circulation among all the DEs--I would think that need-to-know would apply pretty strictly here, since one slip that warned DD or anyone at the MoM [like Mme. Bones, or the aurors] would ruin everything. I can see how Voldy would really want to compartmentalize this sort of operation, and, per Karkaroff and Snape, he's always preferred to do play his cards close to his chest, and not tell all his stooges what he was up to. Barring Lucius or one of the others mislaying the Wizarding equivalent of a daytimer, with the date marked in red: "Invade Dept. of Mysteries, seize prophecy" it could have been hard for Snape, or anyone else, to know the exact day.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 7:15 pm (#519 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:17 pm
Rose:
I said Lucius was laughing at Harry, but I meant it in a general sense. Lucius sounded "maliciously delighted," he sounded "incredulously delighted," and the other Death Eaters were laughing while Lucius explained about the Prophecy. Lucius may not have been laughing in a literal sense, but he was still laughing at Harry's incredulity and lack of knowledge.
fidelio explains it much better than I have with, "Remember, Bellatrix made fun of Harry as well--all that baby-talk of hers, and the reference to thinking what he had dreamed was real? I believe the DEs thought that had Harry at a disadvantage, and were happy to humiliate this little thorn in all their sides."
and then with, "However, I don't think Snape knew for sure when, or if, Voldy would be able to break through and manage to get Harry into the Dept. of Mysteries--how could he? Voldy didn't know--all he could do was keep planting thoughts in Harry's mind, and hope that sooner or later, Harry would take the bait."
Gina: " I think Dumbledore specifically instructed Snape not to let on about the prophecy to Harry. I interpret this in his choice of words during the occlumency lessons. "You are neither special nor needed" (paraphrasing) was, in my opinion, a deliberate ploy to both cool Harry's heels and conceal the true nature of Harry's role in things until Dumbledore was ready to tell Harry."
I love this explanation. I wondered about that myself, and what you've said makes perfect sense. I better be careful or you'll have me being a Snapeaholic soon.
and fidelio... last, but certainly not least, your analogy of D-Day is, again, a great explanation. I'm hooting hysterically over, "Barring Lucius or one of the others mislaying the Wizarding equivalent of a daytimer, with the date marked in red: "Invade Dept. of Mysteries, seize prophecy" it could have been hard for Snape, or anyone else, to know the exact day."
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 7:25 pm (#520 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:26 pm
Weeny Owl wrote: " I better be careful or you'll have me being a Snapeaholic soon."
There's hope for you yet, Weeny Owl!
Now all I have to do is work on about 75% of the rest of the board!
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 23, 2003 8:08 pm (#521 of 644)
Ricky Warner, I apologize that it has taken me so much time to respond with this quote but I had to track it down, it's from PoA p. 204, American, Cornelius Fudge speaking at the Three Broomsticks:
"the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore,...had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off...".
I am still searching for the second quote about it having been at great danger to himself (the spys), it may also be from PoA but it may also be from GOF, but I'm almost certain it was spoken by DD himself to Harry.
Another point, I think JK rather pointedly tells us that Snape has been at Hogwarts 14 years, (OoP pg 363, American) that dates to about the time when Harry was a year old and of his parents death. She shows us that Trelawney has been at Hogwarts since her prediction and even after she is no longer employed as a teacher at Hogwarts, he will keep her there, presumebly for her protection. I think that we will see that Snape has also been at Hogwarts for his protection since he informed about Voldermort's move for the Potters.
Somewhere else there is discussion of whether it is Snape that LV refers to in GoP as a coward. Hiding at Hogwarts, may indeed be viewed by LV as cowardice.
mischa fan - Oct 23, 2003 8:16 pm (#522 of 644)
Mrs. Sirius, the quote about Snape acting at great danger to himself comes from GoF, when Harry is in Dumbledore's Pensive, I don't have my book handy or I would get the quote for you myself, it is during Karkaroff's hearing where he is naming names.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 23, 2003 9:10 pm (#523 of 644)
Thanks, Mischa.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am (#524 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 3:14 am
Allright, Weeny Owl, I think I start to get yout point. You are suggesting that Voldemort deliberately pushed Snape 'away' or at least just let him go, counting on Dumbledore to take Snape to a safe place - Hogwarts. So he (LV) would have someone like a 'Sleeper' inside? Snape thinks he really changed sides, and so does Dumbledore (I'll simply call him AD, OK?). Fine. But there must have been some kind of trial at which AD vouched for Snape, who then got cleared. Are you saying that this happened months before LVs defeat? Like Snape coming to AD, without ever getting actually caught, who then goes to the ministry and says ?Hey, I?ve got Snape. I vouch for him, so please clear him and we all can go back to business.?. Hm, though AD certainly has a funny way to tell the truth, he wouldn?t tell a complete lie (that would probably be detectable by another Legillimens). So there must have been a time when Snape already had changed sides but still was in LVs service. OK, LV could tolerate and handle that. Fine.
But I?ve got a faint echo in my head of Dumbledore telling someone, probably Harry, that he had tried to make Snapes time in Azkaban as short as possible. Unfortunately I can?t find the line, so if anybody knows... That would mean that Snape was in Azkaban. Given what Sirius, Hagrid and Lupin say about Azkaban and the Dementors and that it's pretty hard to tell how long it would take AD to get Snape out, LV can't tell what state Snape will be in when AD gets him. Snape might be dead by the time or rather gone insane. Not that LV would care about Snapes faith. Way like a long shot that luckily worked out right.
So how and when would LV activate his 'Sleeper' when Snape himself thinks he's on ADs sit
there would be plenty of opportunities to kill Snape if Voldie thought he was the one who had left forever
There?s a point in that... Quirell, the Basilisk and Moody/Crouch, you mean?
Romana - Oct 24, 2003 2:55 am (#525 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 3:58 am
For my part I am assuming Snape has changed sides for ever, just from a few small quotes dotted round here and there. One in particular when he is talking to Karkaroff in GOF. Snape says "Very well, flee! I, however shall remain at Hogwarts." What If the underlining message of that was "I am not going to run away from him again?" I think Snape has a very good reason for hating Voldemort, we just don't know what it is yet.
As for the 'Snape's trial' at MoM, I got the impression that it happened after Voldemorts fall, but before Karkaroff's and, you know, the group trial of Death Eaters. In my opinon it would make no sense to have Snapes trial before then, becuase then his cover would be blown and he would become usless as a spy. Dumbledore has a lot of influence at that time remember.
I would love to know exactly how Snape is spying for Voldemort. I just don't buy the 'Returning as a Death Eater' idea. Imagine, Snape returns to Voldemort's hideout. After narrowly escaping death (which he would considering the Death Eathers guarding the front door), Voldemort looks down at him from his high chair and askes. "So why didn't you come when I called?" Snape replies "So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten." My point being that I don't think Voldemort would believe anything that he said as he didn't arrive on time. I think he is using Lucius as a source of information. It would explain why he being nice to Draco, and obviously nasty to Harry (though deserved in my view). What if they agreed to let Dumbledore get rid of Voldemort, then after he's gone, Snape gets rid of Dumbledore, and they take up the powerbase that is left? Just a thought, though not terribly serious. I can just imagine Lucius dreaming that up.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 3:00 am (#526 of 644)
On the 'how did Voldemort know when to act on the prophecy and who was in it'-thing discussion:
We are told all the time that Harry and Voldemort are somehow connected. At one point Harry feels like he's 'tuned in to Voldemorts moods' (at the end of the Occlumency-chapter). And this connection works in both directions, Voldemort has just found out and uses it to lure Harry into the MOM. Malfoy, at the MOM, tells Harry that Voldemort knows Harrys 'weakness for heroism'. First Voldemort, assuming that Harry knew about the prophecy, tried Harrys curiosity. When that didn't work he went for this 'weakness for heroism'. Now that Voldemort knows how to work the connection to Harry he certainly can sense Harry feelings, too, right? And therefore knows exactly when Harry takes the bait.
Getting the prophecy than has to be a quick action anyway, I don't think you can occupy the Ministry for too long a time. So with everybody ready and prepared Voldemort can send his DEs in just in time.
And, as popkin states, The only surprise was that Harry didn't come alone.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 3:47 am (#527 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 5:03 am
Romana
For my part I am assuming Snape has changed sides for ever,...
Yes, or at least isn't on Voldemorts site. I'm quite sure of that, too.
...Snape has a very good reason for hating Voldemort, we just don't know what it is yet. Probably, and until JKR lets us know, only fanfic and a Crytall Ball can tell (sighs).
In my opinon it would make no sense to have Snapes trial before then, ...
Well, it's Weeny Owls theory. But you're right. Even if Voldemort tolerated that, he probably would have had some trouble to explain it to the other DEs. Or at least it doesn't seem to make sense that Lucius still 'speaks highly' of Snape.
"So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten."
Thank you for this one! Nearly knocked me off my chair. Yes, as a spy Snape is probably worthless (I mentioned that before), but Voldemort might have accepted him back, taking the opportunity to have at least someone inside Hogwarts and close to Dumbledore. For what purpose ever. And I do sense a connection to Lucius, too. I can see them using Harry and Dumbledore to defeat Voldemort, hope for Dumbledore to die soon, maybe get rid of Harry -the stupid brat- and than try to get rid of each other. Ha! Maybe the next 5 or so books are about ?Luna Lovegood? fighting the two most evil wizards in the world. Sorry, I?m getting a bit hilarious. But yes, there?s something about them.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 24, 2003 4:58 am (#528 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 5:59 am
"So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten."
Well if you're a faithfull DE, then you wouldn't forget such a thing. Besides, if you've got some memory you wouldn't remember, and we know that Snape has got good memory, and LV knows this as well (and better than any of us, too). I preffer the "I had my duties at Hogwarts, I couldn't come right away" (can't remember who pointed that out), or Timrew's "I had to leave Hogwarts grounds becuase you can't apparate there, that's why I'm late".
Either way, these last posts have been a bit confusing, I'm also reading them too quickly because my time is almost up in this computer! What's worse is all be gone for the whole weekend and I'll return on Sunday, so I'll have alot to catch up on.... Well everyone, have a nice weekend!
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 7:17 am (#529 of 644)
Heh, heh. Ok, so d'you think DD wrote a "note" for Snape to bring to the Dark Lord, explaining why he's late? hee.
But on a serious note, I still think Snape went to DD b4 all the big trials took place. That he was accused along with the others, but by that time was already working with DD and so was vouched for. Of course, I think Snape went to DD after hearing about the prophecy and a combination of life debt and moral reasoning lead him to Dumbledore.
But even if Snape is just biding his time for Voldemort and Dumbledore to die, I wouldn't be upset. I mean, he can be faithful to Dumbledore up to the very end. But eventually both DD and the Dark Lord will be gone, and Snape is a pretty young guy. He's got to think of his long-term future.
popkin - Oct 24, 2003 7:34 am (#530 of 644)
?And then I ask myself, perhaps they believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?
?And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort?perhaps they now pay allegiance to another?perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?? GOF ch33 p648
Maybe LV is describing Snape (among others) in this quote. Maybe Snape didn't want to be allied to the losing side, so he switched.
It could be that he waited for an opportune moment to leave LV - it definitely had to be before LVs downfall, because it was important for Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust. If Snape had waited until after LVs fall, Dumbledore (and everybody else) would have figured he falsely claimed to have been duped, imperioed, or blackmailed. When Snape became aware of vital information about LVs plans to get to the Potters and dispose of Harry, perhaps he thought, "now is my chance. I will warn Dumbledore and gain his trust."
I'm sure that warning Dumbledore that James was in danger is somehow tied in to Snape's lifedebt to James, but I can also see him using the situation to his advantage.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2003 8:32 am (#531 of 644)
Whatever you say about Snape, I don't believe he is devious. By devious, I mean I don't believe he is hiding behind DD robes for his protection while actually planning double cross DD and go back to Lord Voldemort. Despite the grease in his hair, he doesn't seem the type for that kind of slimy act. I think he is strong in his convictions once he has really made up his mind.
Weeny Owl - Oct 24, 2003 8:56 am (#532 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 9:57 am
What I am saying is that the reason Dumbledore could vouch for Snape was because of something that happened a fairly long time (at least a year or two) before Godric's Hollow and Harry's parents dying. Something that gave Dumbledore no doubt whatsoever of Snape's loyalty and his honest intention of helping defeat Voldie.
The trials happened after Voldie's defeat, and when Snape's name was brought up before the Wizengamot, Dumbledore knew what Snape had been doing as a spy so Snape was either never actually tried or he was and was cleared. Snape was never in Azkaban.
As to his cover possibly being blown during Karkaroff's trial, if it was Voldie's idea in the first place to have Snape spying on Dumbledore, then Voldie would be filled with glee that Dumbledore has no idea there's a spy at Hogwarts. Voldie would think he and Snape had really pulled a fast one on old Dumbledore.
As for Voldie explaining anything to the Death Eaters, he wouldn't bother. He's the big kahuna and they're mere underlings. His plans aren't their business unless they're being told to do something.
If Voldie thinks Snape is actually on Dumbledore's side and is the traitor (the one who has left forever), he could have Snape killed anytime he wanted. Lucius could lure Snape to Malfoy Manor where a happy group of Death Eaters could have a "let's Crucio Snape and then Avada Kedavra him for our master" party. If the traitor is Karkaroff, he's fled, maybe back to Durmstrang or maybe not, but he would be a bit harder to track down than Snape.
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 9:50 am (#533 of 644)
I agree, Weeny Owl. Snape is just plain too accessible to be on Voldemort's hit list.
Snape seems like a very resourceful, strategic man. I've no doubt he chose his moment to act, and didn't just go running in panic to Dumbledore for protection. JKR said to "keep an eye on ol' Severus" and some may take that to mean he is up to no good. But I just think he's got a few tricks up his sleeve which will blow us away, when we find out all he's been up to to protect Potter and fool the Death Eaters.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 9:52 am (#534 of 644)
Hm, I've alway thought that Snapes dept to James was somehow 'inherited' by Harry. Maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm not, it means that Snape can't possibly be on Voldemorts side, even if he wanted. It would mean that he has to protect Harry and save his life at least once. But Harry, whatever he does, is pretty well protected by Dumbledore - hardly a chance for Snape to free himself.
And, if Snape is on good terms with Voldemort, why is he going pale when he's sent off to his task at the end of GoF? It's certainly not just his turn to take out Trelawney for a drink?
popkin - Oct 24, 2003 10:47 am (#535 of 644)
Aquiline, Snape feels he owes Harry a life debt because of what James did to save Snape. You're right.
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 1:31 pm (#536 of 644)
Yes, but the question is when does that life debt expire? How much does he have to do to fulfill that debt? He's been fulfilling that debt in one way or another for the past 5 years. Or is it a literal thing? Does he physically have to step in to prevent Harry's immediate demise? Because, in that case, his debt would have been repaid in book 1 when he muttered his counter curse against Quirrell.
It is particularly cruel, however, to think he can never repay his debt because Dumbledore is doing it all the time, and is therefore stuck in an unwanted residence and career. Heaven knows I'd be in a bad mood all the time if I were in that situation!
Oh, and Aquiline, I think no matter how good terms a person may be on with the Dark Lord, he's still got to be a scary person to go pay a visit.
Fawkes8U - Oct 24, 2003 7:13 pm (#537 of 644)
Just finished watching both Harry Potter movies today. What struck me as interesting is the way Snape man-handles, a little bit, Draco during the wizard's duel with Harry. Draco seems to be a little afraid of Snape whenever Harry counterstrikes and lands Draco right in front of Snape. Draco, doesn't seem to be that worried with anyone other than his Dad. It seemed a bit odd to me that Snape, as a teacher, and even as mean as he is to the students in the other houses, would feel so free to command a Death Eater's kid like he does. It makes me wonder. I mean, he shows favoritism towards his students for sure, and I'm sure that he was embarrassed by Draco being helicoptered by Harry, but to shove Lucius's kid?
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 11:26 pm (#538 of 644)
Edited Oct 25, 2003 12:27 am
Gina R Snape: ...his debt would have been repaid in book 1 when he muttered his counter curse against Quirrell.
Yes, I thought of that, too. But I doubt that he actually saved Harry's life then. I mean, wizards don't get killed in a car crash, nobody ever got killed in a Qudditch match, Harry fell off his broomstick in PoA and survived...
Rich - Oct 25, 2003 1:08 am (#539 of 644)
Fawkes8U, could the reason he was so forceful with Draco be because he didn't want to see him lose to Harry? Or more likely he didn't want to see Harry win?
Also, we've seen that Lucius wants his son to be better than anyone else (especially mudbloods), so has he had a word to Snape saying that he wants Malfoy to be given good grades?
popkin - Oct 25, 2003 3:56 am (#540 of 644)
Edited by Oct 25, 2003 4:58 am
I think that, regardless of Snape's standing with Voldemort, Lucius is keeping his options open (he's "slippery", remember?). Lucius may not know where Snape stands, but he realizes Snape is in a position to be helpful to him.
Whether Snape is:
1. a true follower of LV
2. a true friend of Dumbledore
3. playing LV and Dumbledore as fools
Lucius is going to use Snape to achieve his ends - a proper education and preferential treatment for his son. And later on, maybe Snape will prove to be useful in other ways - as a "gift" from Lucius to Voldemort, or as an ally in the future design to usurp power from LV.
fidelio - Oct 25, 2003 2:43 pm (#541 of 644)
Edited Oct 25, 2003 3:43 pm
As far as Snape's treatment of Draco in the CoS movie--of course, we can't count on the movies being canon, but here are some possibilities:
Snape was in a bad mood to begin with, not wanting to expose the students to temptation and possible injury with the dueling club Lockhart insisted on foisting on the school. DD may have ordered him to 'help out' to keep things under control, thus forcing him to work with Lockhart, an untalented faker most of the teachers seem to have despised within days of the start of school--and to be treated by Lockhart as an "assistant'!
Snape had also caught some of Lucius' wrath over Draco's poor grades, and was under orders to make sure he buckled down, worked harder, shut up with the whining, and acted like a credit to the Malfoy family and House Slytherin.
Snape has zero tolerance for wimps and whiners, and Draco sounds like both, no matter how 'nicely' Snape is forced to treat him for form's sake.
Snape really likes a good fight, and was having trouble not wading in and reducing Lockhart to chopped liver. Hence, he was even more inclined to be abrupt and short-tempered.
All of the above.
Catherine - Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm (#542 of 644)
Ah, Fidelio, thanks...
Couldn'tve said it better meself.
--Catherine
Gina R Snape - Oct 25, 2003 10:40 pm (#543 of 644)
True, true Fidelio. Plus, just think of all the opportunities he had in that scene to toss his hair!
(Those of you who saw Comic Relief will remember the joke).
timrew - Oct 28, 2003 5:43 pm (#544 of 644)
I think he could have tossed his hair clear across the room, Gina.
Or even hung it over the back of a chair.
Gina R Snape - Oct 28, 2003 7:44 pm (#545 of 644)
aw[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Well, one of the lines in Comic Relief was how the wig looked "so much better this time." Hee.
There's no hair tossing in the books, though. I did notice, however, that JKR seemed to focus more on his nose than his hair in this book. I know there is a thread about hair on the Lex. But, aside from Snape's beautifully prominent proboscis and the chunk missing from Moody's is there mention of anyone else's nose?
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 28, 2003 7:56 pm (#546 of 644)
JKR mentions Dumbledore's nose relatively often. I liked Snape tossing his hair in the movie. I thought that it was a nice touch.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 28, 2003 9:30 pm (#547 of 644)
Ron's nose, I think, is also referred as long in PS/SS.
LadyOfThePensieve - Oct 28, 2003 11:34 pm (#548 of 644)
Hi,
first at all I´m here. Nice to meet you all. And I´m sorry, I´m not a native speaker, so my English probably isn´t completely correct.
About Florence and Snape. I always assumed it must have been Snape who put a hex on Berta, because he is the only one who would overreact in such a way. He got bullied many times, and when Berta tried to teas him he simply got in rage.
But on the other hand it seems not understandable why he got angry because Berta saw him kissing a girl, something which happens very often at hide places in a school. Maybe Florence wasn´t just any girl, but a sister to someone he called his foe? If it was James (it´s quite possible he had a sister, why not?) his reaction becomes more understandable. Hiding his relationship to a Potter sister would make sense, am I wrong? And maybe he was at the same time Sirius rival? Sirius had been completely fixed on James Potter, being together with his sister would have been perfect for him.
Ok, I know I´m going too far, but I think it make sense. Even the "prank" at The Whomping Willow could have been a reaction to Snape´s love interest in Florence, who knows?
Wendy Snelgrove - Oct 29, 2003 1:12 pm (#549 of 644)
I don't know whether I can add anything new to the "Is Snape a spy, a double-agent, for whom" type questions, but I'm going to give it a go.
First, I see the two key pieces of information being as follows:
1. Snape's actions at the end of VW1, including testifying against other DE's, were well known. There was no equivalent of a witness protection programme. I take this most specifically from what Harry saw in DD's pensieve about Karkaroff's trial.
2. Snape does not appear to be vilified or hated by his fellow death eaters. It is hard to justify this completely as a general statement, but it is certainly true that there were opportunities to get him that weren't taken, and Malfoy appears to genuinely like Snape, as opposed to merely tolerate him for appearances sake (consider that he told Umbridge that Snape was a good guy "off camera").
Options as to Snape's status between VW1 and Voldy's return:
a) Snape is on DD's side and is open and honest about this. Not possible because Malfoy wouldn't treat him this way, especially after Voldy came back.
b) Snape is on DD's side and tells the DE's he is on theirs. Entirely possible and most likely, in my opinion. He has to tell the DE's that he only ratted on those who were going down anyways (making the best of a bad situation) in order to infiltrate.
c) Snape is really on Voldy's side and he tells DD he is on his side. Possible, and fits with the existing evidence. Again, he ratted on those DE's who were going down anyways in order to infiltrate. I think this is less likely because I guess I have too much faith in DD.
Then we have an intervening act - Voldy's return. What are the possibilities now:
If
a) Snape is on DD's side and is open and honest about this - then Malfoy isn't nice to him and doesn't refer Umbridge to him, plus everyone wants him dead - so this can't be true.
If
b) Snape was really on DD's side and tolds the DE's he was on their side before Voldy's return then:
i) He continues to engage as a spy - he returns late to the rebirth (sorry, My Lord, but as your other faithful followers will have told you, I infiltrated the enemy to spy awaiting your return. I could not apparate away from Hogwart's, and I didn't want to arouse suspician - I am ready to do as you ask).
ii) He changes to being openly loyal to DD - not possible because of Malfoy's treatment
iii) He switches sides again - same story as #1, but he means it - in other words, he is truly loyal to Voldy - I think this is unlikely however since if he had spent 14 years being truly loyal to DD, then why would Voldemort's appearance change anything
If
c) He is truly loyal to Voldy but lied to DD then,
i) He continues to engage as a spy - he returns late to the rebirth (sorry, My Lord, but as your other faithful followers will have told you, I infiltrated the enemy to spy awaiting your return. I could not apparate away from Hogwart's, and I didn't want to arouse suspician - I am ready to do as you ask).
ii) He switches sides again - same story as #1, but he means it - in other words, he is truly loyal to DD - I think this is unlikely because any conversion to DD would have happened earlier
I don't know if I confused everyone with that. But my main points are these:
- before Voldy comes back, he is truly loyal to one side and lying to the other - which is not certain, but both believe he belongs to them
- after Voldy comes back, he can remain with whatever position he has earlier, or he can switch (there is no difference in behaviour with any switch, because he is telling both sides he is loyal to them and spying on the other - the only difference is in his own true loyalty)
Don't know whether this adds anything but... oh well.
Weeny Owl - Oct 29, 2003 3:34 pm (#550 of 644)
Wendy - " Snape's actions at the end of VW1, including testifying against other DE's, were well known."
Snape didn't testify against other Death Eaters that I can remember. Dumbledore said he had already given evidence of Snape's innocence when Karkaroff accused Snape. Karkaroff definitely named names, but I can't find anything stating specifically that Snape did... only that he was accused and Dumbledore provided adequate testimony that Snape was no longer a Death Eater.
"Snape did not seem in on the plot to get the prophesy in the Mysteries department."
I couldn't find who posted this, but I had copied it already. Sorry, whoever wants the credit. Anyway, I think that Snape did know about the plan to steal the prophesy. When Harry goes in after the Order meeting when he first arrives at 12 Grimmauld Place, he sees what appears to be plans of a building. I took those to be a map of the Department of Mysteries (you'd need one to navigate through there, especially if you were guarding it). However, I think that it goes back to the debate of how close to the inner circle Snape is. Obviously he's considerably close, because he wears the Dark Mark. However, I doubt that the Dark Lord tells any of the Death Eaters everything. I think maybe he sent only his most trusted ones to the Dept. of Mysteries to get Harry, and they may have not even known about the dream.
And, I will state my opinion of whether the Dark Lord knows of Snape's espionage, so that I won't have to ever again. I think that there are many choices, which I will leave up to JKR to decide which is right. They each have their reasons. 1) LV knows Snape is a spy and is using him to help lure the Order into his traps. 2) LV has no idea (yet) that Snape is a spy, and Snape simply came late or used the time-turner to get to the graveyard (heck, the no-apparating Hogwarts things is a perfect excuse). 3) LV knows that Snape is a double agent, and he thinks Snape is on his side.
I'll have to continue this later, because it's time for me to get some sleep (yes, that thing we all lack here), and my train of thought has just crashed, killing all aboard.
Weeny Owl - Oct 22, 2003 9:42 pm (#502 of 644)
I think Snape was well aware of the plan to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries. I also don't think he was smirking... something about "a curious and satisfied" expression. Snape may know about the plan only because of his work for the Order, but he may also know about it from being part of Voldie's inner circle. Either way, he knows much more than he's letting on.
I think Snape was the coward in the graveyard scene. He did tell Fudge later that Karkaroff had betrayed too many to be sure of a welcome back into the fold. I also feel he's not the one who has left Voldie forever because Lucius Malfoy was present in the graveyard scene and they're buddies. Umbridge said that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and if Snape were no longer considered a Death Eater, Lucius wouldn't be praising Snape.
Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years. Harry is fifteen, and he would have been over a year old when the Godric's Hollow fiasco happened. That was on Halloween, so Snape would have been teaching at Hogwarts for a couple of months. I think it was Voldie's idea to have Snape at Hogwarts.
Hogwarts is the safest place in the Wizarding World except for Gringott's. During a war, that would be one of the key places an enemy would want captured. I think Voldie's plan was to have Snape there as an insider so that after he killed Harry, he could send his troops into the school and basically control the entire British Wizarding World. He could take over the school, get rid of all the students who were not what he considered to be proper (non-purebloods, half-giants, any other half-humans he thought not worthy, any whose parents weren't supporters), and then turn his eyes to conquering the rest of the European Wizarding World. He could also get rid of that horrid Defense Against the Dark Arts class and make it a true Dark Arts class. Plus, with his henchman there, or so he sees Snape, there would be an even greater chance that he could finally defeat his nemesis... Dumbledore.
So, Snape not being at the Department of Mysteries and staying at Hogwarts would still be in keeping with Voldie's plans.
Aquiline - Oct 23, 2003 2:57 am (#503 of 644)
Hi to all the Snapeaholics. A couple of days ago I stumbled across this forum and well, just decided to sign up. I've read the complete thread, yes, but it's impossible to keep it all in mind...
Tpujiko4444: I perfectly agree that Snape would indeed have difficulties to attract women in 'the real world'. We, as readers, can imagine him the way we want him to be, we can pity and romanticise him, find all kinds of excuses. But let's face it: who wants a bad mooded, sarcastic, bitter man with greasy hair and yellow teeth to send her pickled cockroaches? Thank you very much. But well, he might now be using the looks that once helped his outsider-career to keep people from getting too close to him. Maybe because he doesn't want to endanger a potential lover or, much more likely, to protect himself from getting scared for somebody. Snape tells us/Harry in the Occlumency lesson that Voldemort uses a persons fears as a weapon.
The spying thing is something I?ve, too, been wondering about: I don?t think Snape was present at Voldemorts ?rebirthing party?, simply because he was at Hogwarts when Harry returned: Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape come to get Harry from Moody. Snape might have had the time to leave Hogwarts grounds and apparate at the graveyard, but he never could have made it back and join the triumvirate so quickly. And I think that, if Snape is mentioned at the graveyard, he is the one Voldemort ? thinks has left me for good?. Snape might have managed to change Voldemorts mind later as he is in such a good position at Hogwarts. I tend to believe that Dumbledore sent Snape back to Voldemort to continue his spying job. Or maybe just start it? Anyway, it puts Snape into a bizarre position. Both, Dumbledore and Voldemort, are extremely powerful wizards and highly skilled Legilimens, and neither of them is extremely stupid. Neither of them can give Snape critical information, given the risk he might give them away - whether out of his free will or not! So Snape is pretty much worthless as a spy , except he maybe can tap Lucius for information. Snape rather seems to be some kind of play ball in Voldemorts and Dumbledores plans, something like a Bludger or the Quaffle in Quidditch terms. And I can?t see Snape deliberately bringing himself into such a position.
Weeny Owl (in post 502) says ?I think it was Voldie's idea to have Snape at Hogwarts?...
Well, as much as I like the thought, I don?t think it?s possible. That would mean that Voldemort gave some information to Snape to pass it to Dumbledore (or one of his crowd) so he could be taken for a spy. Then Snape must have been caught or let himself get caught (without getting avadakedavra?d!) and put into Azkaban. Then Dumbledore comes and saves Snape by vouching for him and takes him into Hogwarts before Voldemorts downfall, just as Voldemort had planned? It would have had to be some crucial piece of information that Snape gave to Dumbledore to assure him that Snape is on his side and cause him to get Snape out of prison. Information of the kind you simply can?t give away to your enemy. Especially not on such a little chance for your plan to work out.
One last question: What do you think Snape?s Boggart would look like?
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 3:26 am (#504 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 4:33 am
Gina R.Snape: I'm also completely sure that Sirius didn't think out his little "joke" on Snape, he was young and stupid (he himself, in OoP, said he wasn't proud of it), and I think if he had known that Snape would have most probably end up being killed, he wouldn't have gone through with it.
Zixyer: "Why didn't he know about the plan to lure Harry to the Dept. of Mysteries when it seems like all the Death Eaters in Voldemort's inner circle were there?" I pointed out in my last post that maybe he was behind the plan (only I used "doing the paperwork" to express myself,hehe); then someone (can't remember who it was) made a very good point: why didn't Snape warn the Order Members? Ok, so maybe he didn't know... so what if Voldie's circle are in on Snape? This is, if Snape is a spy that's "infiltrated". Maybe they know what Snape is up to (spying on them) and they've decided to play his little game, and kill him in the end for the "traitor that he is".
Maybe he's a spy, but isn't an infiltrated one....maybe he's just spying on them from the outside (like a vampire for example, but I've repeated a thousand times in the "Is Snape a Vampire?" thread that I don't think he's a vampire... it was an example, he could go as a spider, for example, etc etc (unregistered animangus, maybe?).
But I'm also taking into consideration Grant the Great's last post (#501): "I doubt that the Dark Lord tells any of the Death Eaters everything. I think maybe he sent only his most trusted ones to the Dept. of Mysteries to get Harry, and they may have not even known about the dream". That was a very, very good point. We've seen that LV thinks some DE's are foolish and stupid. He would be more than happy to kill the ones he thinks could stumble and ruin things for him because of their stupidity, but in the meantime,he needs all the support he can get.
Of course, Weeny Owl also made a very good point (post #502): "Umbridge said that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and if Snape were no longer considered a Death Eater, Lucius wouldn't be praising Snape".
So now that makes me believe that maybe he is an infiltrated spy...
I still like the idea of Snape being an animangus, though. It just occured to me (I don't know if it's been discussed or even mentioned before).
And welcome Aquiline! What would Snape's boggart look like? Good question! Maybe his mother dead?
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 3:49 am (#505 of 644)
Maybe it would look like himself with a red purse and wearing a vulture hat?
It occurs to me that Lucius may not care if Snape is a traitor. He is willing to use anyone to achieve his purposes. So, since Snape treats Draco so well, maybe Lucius overlooks the fact that Snape has betrayed LV. Afterall, if Lucius could get by with it (being the slippery guy that he is), he might do the same.
That clears the road for Snape to impersonate Barty Jr. to get into the inner circle (while Lucius plays both sides of the coin). The Barty Jr. impersonation makes sense to me because there is no evidence, so far, that LV knows Barty Jr. is out of the picture. Then the question is why weren't the Order forwarned of the exact date of the break-in?
Maybe Snape was so put out with Harry about the pensieve betrayal that he didn't care if Harry got caught by a DE ambush? Maybe he wanted revenge on Sirius and expected things to go exactly as they did (minus five additional students)?
OR, maybe LV knows something about Barty Jr. that we don't and considers him to be a traitor for some reason. That would clear the road for Snape to be the faithful servant at Hogwarts.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 7:15 am (#506 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:37 am
Whoa! (I've just fallen off my chair,hehe). Snape his faithful servant? A completely different point of view. Hmm... (I don't agree but "hmm..." just the same, hehee).
If Snape had to impersonate Barty Jr., it would be waaaay too risky, because Barty Jr. is dead, so he's got no Verasiterum to take; Snape doesn't know everything there is to know about him, is there? Surely LV knows more about him than Snape does? If this is true, Snape could make a mistake and LV would catch on soon. Wouldn't it be foolish of Snape to do that impersonate Barty Jr.?
If the Boggart looked like himself with a red purse and vulture hat, that would mean that he himself is what most frightens him.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 7:25 am (#507 of 644)
Edited by Oct 23, 2003 8:29 am
Barty isn't actually dead. He's had his soul sucked out. So he's alive, but without a soul - thus "worse than dead". I thought that was why JKR did it that way - so that he would be around to supply the hairs (or whatever) to add to the polyjuice potion (which Barty must have had around already, since he was using it). I suppose that Snape might be able to freely peruse Barty's memories while he is in an almost catatonic state? If he's impersonating Barty Jr., Snape certainly has some way to make a convincing show of it.
About the purse and hat - I was referring to a loss of decorum, or a loss of esteem or fright factor, or respect. Snape was mortified by the whole boggart lesson that Lupin conducted. I think he's very afraid of being laughed at.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 7:36 am (#508 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:49 am
Oops!, you're completely right, Barty isn't dead... well he can't talk, so Snape would have to use his Occlumency skills to peruse Barty's memories, as you said Popkin. But when he does that, he would only get little "peeks" of Barty Jr's life, through mere flashes, wouldn't he? It would take too long to get the information he needs. Not only that, he can't choose what memories he can have access to; so he could get many flashes of things that have nothing to do with LV or his connection with Barty Jr, and that wouldn't get Snape far. Not only this, but he wouldn't be sure of everything he saw -in Harry's first Occlumency lesson, Snape sees Marge's dog, but he doesn't know who it belongs to or where it came from.
Assuming he has a faster, more efficent way of having access to Barty's memories (or assuming he has a better way to know about Barty Jr. altogether), the idea of him spying on Voldermort disguised as Barty Jr. is quite good, and plausible.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 8:06 am (#509 of 644)
Aqualine, welcome! I can already tell we're going to have a lot of fun debates.
"Then Dumbledore comes and saves Snape by vouching for him and takes him into Hogwarts before Voldemorts downfall, just as Voldemort had planned?"
No, Dumbledore doesn't save Snape by vouching for him... what Dumbledore knows about Snape in order to vouch for him would have happened much earlier. I think something happened, or maybe a few somethings, that led to Snape going to Dumbledore. Giving Dumbledore crucial info wouldn't be enough either... Dumbledore would have to know deep in his heart why Snape changed sides, and a bit of information wouldn't do it.
The idea of having someone at Hogwarts would have been part of the long-range plan. Hogwarts needed a DADA teacher and a Potions Master, and Snape applied for the DADA position. Dumbledore gave him the Potions Master position, and Voldie thought that was better than nothing.
Voldie says that the one he believes has left him forever will be killed. Voldie knows where Snape is, Lucius knows where Snape is... there would be plenty of opportunities to kill Snape if Voldie thought he was the one who had left forever.
popkin: As to the date of the break-in, Snape (or Snape as Crouch, Jr.) wouldn't know about the exact date because Harry didn't know himself that he was going. Snape let the Order know as soon as he could. Lucius said that Voldie had wondered why Harry hadn't come earlier, but Voldie didn't realize Harry didn't know about the Prophecy.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella [/b]- Oct 23, 2003 8:14 am (#510 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 9:17 am
Weeny Owl, sorry but I don't understand last paragraph! Could you explain it again please? Thanks alot.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 8:35 am (#511 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 9:36 am
Sure, Rose.
popkin said: "That clears the road for Snape to impersonate Barty Jr. to get into the inner circle (while Lucius plays both sides of the coin). The Barty Jr. impersonation makes sense to me because there is no evidence, so far, that LV knows Barty Jr. is out of the picture. Then the question is why weren't the Order forwarned of the exact date of the break-in?"
I took popkin to mean breaking into the Department of Mysteries, although I could have misunderstood.
If it is the exact date of the break-in at the DoM, then no one would be able to tell the Order because Harry's decision to go to the Ministry wasn't planned... it was made only after the last "dream" with Sirius being tortured. When Snape realized what had happened, he let the Order know. Lucius had said that Voldie was wondering why Harry hadn't come earlier, and then laughed when Harry had no idea what the Prophecy was.
Peregrine - Oct 23, 2003 8:41 am (#512 of 644)
Okay, I?m confused? Are we thinking that Snape didn?t know Voldemort was trying to lure Harry to the MOM to get the Prophesy? Because if that?s the case, what?s the point of the Occlumency lessons? I thought the whole reason Dumbledore set that up was so Voldemort couldn?t trick Harry into going to the MOM (and obviously because he didn?t want Voldemort reading Harry?s mind in general). Isn?t that why Snape was so angry with Harry when he was still dreaming about the hallway and that he realized where the hallway was?
What am I missing?
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 10:27 am (#513 of 644)
I'm quite sure Snape knew the plan, and that was why he was so alarmed when he saw that Harry was still having the dreams.
To me, it makes no sense at all that Snape would be using polyjuice to impersonate Barty Crouch Jr. He could not keep that up indefitely. Wouldn't the wizarding world be made aware of Barty's situation. For that matter, wouldn't Voldemort know Barty well enough after a while to tell the difference? Finally, I think he would get suspicious if Barty and Snape were summoned with the rest and never appeared at the same time.
I also don't think Voldemort sent those he most trusted to the MoM. I think he strategically sent those most effective and easily able to reach it. The entire group of DEs weren't there. And, they may be off doing other things. With that in mind, it wouldn't make sense for him to send Snape when Snape is busy at Hogwarts. (Especially if you subscribe to the theory---which I do---that Voldemort thinks he placed Snape there).
Finally, did Snape go to Azkaban? I thought he was vouched for by Dumbledore, but I don't recall any mention of Dumbledore physically getting him out of Azkaban--just out of going to Azkaban.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 23, 2003 11:00 am (#514 of 644)
Thanks alot for clearing that up, Weeny Owl. And, your theory makes sense. But:
You said: "Lucius had said that Voldie was wondering why Harry hadn't come earlier, and then laughed when Harry had no idea what the Prophecy was".
So I don't get it, why do you assume he laughed at Harry? I just assumed, when I read the book, that he was just making Harry feel foolish (which he accomplished)...
And about him wondering why Harry took so long to get there, I think it was because of the image everyone had, at that time, of Harry (the one who likes being the hero and saving the day). He thought that Harry would go to the MoM after seeing Arthur's attack, right? Or that his curiosity would get the best of him, I think he said (or something along those lines, maybe?). That's what I thought. What were you trying to say when you said that Lucius had laughed at him?
As for Snape going to Azkaban, no, I don't think he ever did..well, it hasn't been mentioned before.
fidelio - Oct 23, 2003 11:10 am (#515 of 644)
Remember, Bellatrix made fun of Harry as well--all that baby-talk of hers, and the reference to thinking what he had dreamed was real? I believe the DEs thought that had Harry at a disadvantage, and were happy to humiliate this little thorn in all their sides.
I get the feeling Snape may have been aware that Voldy had some plot on to get to the prophecy, and when Harry described the scene he was dreaming, realized Voldy was trying to set Harry up. He didn't tell Harry what might be in the Dept. of Mysteries--perhaps because he didn't want to stir Harry's curiosity, in the hope that the less Harry knew, the less he'd be interested [fat chance!]However, I don't think Snape knew for sure when, or if, Voldy would be able to break through and manage to get Harry into the Dept. of Mysteries--how could he? Voldy didn't know--all he could do was keep planting thoughts in Harry's mind, and hope that sooner or later, Harry would take the bait.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 11:38 am (#516 of 644)
You're right Gina: "To me, it makes no sense at all that Snape would be using polyjuice to impersonate Barty Crouch Jr. He could not keep that up indefitely. Wouldn't the wizarding world be made aware of Barty's situation."
The only time Snape could have used a Barty Jr. disguise would have been the first time he went to see LV following the third task. Fudge knew about the kiss, so Lucius would have found out right away.
I'd been kind of kicking that idea around in my head for quite a while. Post it on the forum one day, and - POOF - it's gone. Just goes to show a dozen heads are better than one.
As to Harry just having a dream one day and panicking himself into the DOM - I didn't think it happened like that. That incident was planned by LV. The guards were disposed of, or lured away. The Death Eaters were in place in the prophecies "stacks". They couldn't have been ready in that way (guards gone, DEs in stacks) every day since Harry "snaked out", could they? I thought that LV had known he would get through to Harry that day using one of his favorite "weapons" - a person's blind love for an endangered loved one - in this case Harry's love for a tortured Sirius.
The only surprise was that Harry didn't come alone. All the communications lines were down, and had been for some time. Kreacher was known to be disloyal to Sirius. Umbridge and the obedient ministry officials had gotten rid of McGonnagal and Hagrid. I can't remember where Dumbledore was - but I bet LV knew he wouldn't be available to help. I think Umbridge was going to "let" Harry go to the DOM sans wand - but, her plan was thwarted when the six bested the death nibblers, etc...
Anyway, the way I see it, Snape either sat on the information about which day the break in would take place, or he missed that LV staff meeting due to Hogwarts duties. ("Begging your pardon, Dark Lord, but we have O.W.L.'s that week and I can't possibly make it.")
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 12:05 pm (#517 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 1:20 pm
Linda, I think Dumbledore specifically instructed Snape not to let on about the prophecy to Harry. I interpret this in his choice of words during the occlumency lessons. "You are neither special nor needed" (paraphrasing) was, in my opinion, a deliberate ploy to both cool Harry's heels and conceal the true nature of Harry's role in things until Dumbledore was ready to tell Harry.
As I've stated previously (what, 300 posts ago?) the whole conversation between Snape and Harry when Snape is choosing his words very carefully is emblematic of JKR's superb skills and, in effect, Snape's ability to follow Dumbledore's orders, and give one impression, but actually be doing something else. (In this case, Snape was both teaching occlumency and gathering information from Harry's mind on what Voldemort was up to). Snape was walking an extremely perilous tight-rope in those lessons and it's a testament to both his dedication and his skills that he did it as long as he did.
fidelio - Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm (#518 of 644)
I see your point, popkin. However, I think we can have it both ways--Voldy and the DEs had the planning all in place for the day when Voldy broke through with Harry, but they may not have been sure when the exact time and the exact day would be--it would depend on just when he managed to plant the idea in Harry's mind that Sirius was in danger, which may have taken more than one or two tries. At least, if I were in Voldy's shoes, I would have hoped to made it through with the idea of Sirius in danger the first time, but not counted on it. After all, the wretched boy may have been making progress with the occlumency after all!
However, it seems logical that at some time during exams, Harry would have been tired and distracted, and his ability to concentrate diminished, so that that would be the best time to try and work on him, hoping sooner or later to break through--and sooner rather than later! The effort to take out the guards, and so on, could have gone into play as soon as Voldy was sure Harry had taken the bait. Sort of like a commando operation, they already had their ground checked out, and a plan in place--all they needed was the order to go into action. In comparison, the planning for D-Day in June 1944 was set up in detail, and they had a choice of dates lined up, depending on tides, moon phases and so on--as soon as the weather was right, they were ready to go. Everyone had their assigned duties, and knew what to do, once the order to go went out.
As for Snape's part in this--he may have had some idea of what was planned, but since Voldy and his strike force weren't sure of the exact attack date, there's no way he could know. Also, this plan may not have been in general circulation among all the DEs--I would think that need-to-know would apply pretty strictly here, since one slip that warned DD or anyone at the MoM [like Mme. Bones, or the aurors] would ruin everything. I can see how Voldy would really want to compartmentalize this sort of operation, and, per Karkaroff and Snape, he's always preferred to do play his cards close to his chest, and not tell all his stooges what he was up to. Barring Lucius or one of the others mislaying the Wizarding equivalent of a daytimer, with the date marked in red: "Invade Dept. of Mysteries, seize prophecy" it could have been hard for Snape, or anyone else, to know the exact day.
Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2003 7:15 pm (#519 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:17 pm
Rose:
I said Lucius was laughing at Harry, but I meant it in a general sense. Lucius sounded "maliciously delighted," he sounded "incredulously delighted," and the other Death Eaters were laughing while Lucius explained about the Prophecy. Lucius may not have been laughing in a literal sense, but he was still laughing at Harry's incredulity and lack of knowledge.
fidelio explains it much better than I have with, "Remember, Bellatrix made fun of Harry as well--all that baby-talk of hers, and the reference to thinking what he had dreamed was real? I believe the DEs thought that had Harry at a disadvantage, and were happy to humiliate this little thorn in all their sides."
and then with, "However, I don't think Snape knew for sure when, or if, Voldy would be able to break through and manage to get Harry into the Dept. of Mysteries--how could he? Voldy didn't know--all he could do was keep planting thoughts in Harry's mind, and hope that sooner or later, Harry would take the bait."
Gina: " I think Dumbledore specifically instructed Snape not to let on about the prophecy to Harry. I interpret this in his choice of words during the occlumency lessons. "You are neither special nor needed" (paraphrasing) was, in my opinion, a deliberate ploy to both cool Harry's heels and conceal the true nature of Harry's role in things until Dumbledore was ready to tell Harry."
I love this explanation. I wondered about that myself, and what you've said makes perfect sense. I better be careful or you'll have me being a Snapeaholic soon.
and fidelio... last, but certainly not least, your analogy of D-Day is, again, a great explanation. I'm hooting hysterically over, "Barring Lucius or one of the others mislaying the Wizarding equivalent of a daytimer, with the date marked in red: "Invade Dept. of Mysteries, seize prophecy" it could have been hard for Snape, or anyone else, to know the exact day."
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 7:25 pm (#520 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 8:26 pm
Weeny Owl wrote: " I better be careful or you'll have me being a Snapeaholic soon."
There's hope for you yet, Weeny Owl!
Now all I have to do is work on about 75% of the rest of the board!
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 23, 2003 8:08 pm (#521 of 644)
Ricky Warner, I apologize that it has taken me so much time to respond with this quote but I had to track it down, it's from PoA p. 204, American, Cornelius Fudge speaking at the Three Broomsticks:
"the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore,...had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off...".
I am still searching for the second quote about it having been at great danger to himself (the spys), it may also be from PoA but it may also be from GOF, but I'm almost certain it was spoken by DD himself to Harry.
Another point, I think JK rather pointedly tells us that Snape has been at Hogwarts 14 years, (OoP pg 363, American) that dates to about the time when Harry was a year old and of his parents death. She shows us that Trelawney has been at Hogwarts since her prediction and even after she is no longer employed as a teacher at Hogwarts, he will keep her there, presumebly for her protection. I think that we will see that Snape has also been at Hogwarts for his protection since he informed about Voldermort's move for the Potters.
Somewhere else there is discussion of whether it is Snape that LV refers to in GoP as a coward. Hiding at Hogwarts, may indeed be viewed by LV as cowardice.
mischa fan - Oct 23, 2003 8:16 pm (#522 of 644)
Mrs. Sirius, the quote about Snape acting at great danger to himself comes from GoF, when Harry is in Dumbledore's Pensive, I don't have my book handy or I would get the quote for you myself, it is during Karkaroff's hearing where he is naming names.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 23, 2003 9:10 pm (#523 of 644)
Thanks, Mischa.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am (#524 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 3:14 am
Allright, Weeny Owl, I think I start to get yout point. You are suggesting that Voldemort deliberately pushed Snape 'away' or at least just let him go, counting on Dumbledore to take Snape to a safe place - Hogwarts. So he (LV) would have someone like a 'Sleeper' inside? Snape thinks he really changed sides, and so does Dumbledore (I'll simply call him AD, OK?). Fine. But there must have been some kind of trial at which AD vouched for Snape, who then got cleared. Are you saying that this happened months before LVs defeat? Like Snape coming to AD, without ever getting actually caught, who then goes to the ministry and says ?Hey, I?ve got Snape. I vouch for him, so please clear him and we all can go back to business.?. Hm, though AD certainly has a funny way to tell the truth, he wouldn?t tell a complete lie (that would probably be detectable by another Legillimens). So there must have been a time when Snape already had changed sides but still was in LVs service. OK, LV could tolerate and handle that. Fine.
But I?ve got a faint echo in my head of Dumbledore telling someone, probably Harry, that he had tried to make Snapes time in Azkaban as short as possible. Unfortunately I can?t find the line, so if anybody knows... That would mean that Snape was in Azkaban. Given what Sirius, Hagrid and Lupin say about Azkaban and the Dementors and that it's pretty hard to tell how long it would take AD to get Snape out, LV can't tell what state Snape will be in when AD gets him. Snape might be dead by the time or rather gone insane. Not that LV would care about Snapes faith. Way like a long shot that luckily worked out right.
So how and when would LV activate his 'Sleeper' when Snape himself thinks he's on ADs sit
there would be plenty of opportunities to kill Snape if Voldie thought he was the one who had left forever
There?s a point in that... Quirell, the Basilisk and Moody/Crouch, you mean?
Romana - Oct 24, 2003 2:55 am (#525 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 3:58 am
For my part I am assuming Snape has changed sides for ever, just from a few small quotes dotted round here and there. One in particular when he is talking to Karkaroff in GOF. Snape says "Very well, flee! I, however shall remain at Hogwarts." What If the underlining message of that was "I am not going to run away from him again?" I think Snape has a very good reason for hating Voldemort, we just don't know what it is yet.
As for the 'Snape's trial' at MoM, I got the impression that it happened after Voldemorts fall, but before Karkaroff's and, you know, the group trial of Death Eaters. In my opinon it would make no sense to have Snapes trial before then, becuase then his cover would be blown and he would become usless as a spy. Dumbledore has a lot of influence at that time remember.
I would love to know exactly how Snape is spying for Voldemort. I just don't buy the 'Returning as a Death Eater' idea. Imagine, Snape returns to Voldemort's hideout. After narrowly escaping death (which he would considering the Death Eathers guarding the front door), Voldemort looks down at him from his high chair and askes. "So why didn't you come when I called?" Snape replies "So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten." My point being that I don't think Voldemort would believe anything that he said as he didn't arrive on time. I think he is using Lucius as a source of information. It would explain why he being nice to Draco, and obviously nasty to Harry (though deserved in my view). What if they agreed to let Dumbledore get rid of Voldemort, then after he's gone, Snape gets rid of Dumbledore, and they take up the powerbase that is left? Just a thought, though not terribly serious. I can just imagine Lucius dreaming that up.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 3:00 am (#526 of 644)
On the 'how did Voldemort know when to act on the prophecy and who was in it'-thing discussion:
We are told all the time that Harry and Voldemort are somehow connected. At one point Harry feels like he's 'tuned in to Voldemorts moods' (at the end of the Occlumency-chapter). And this connection works in both directions, Voldemort has just found out and uses it to lure Harry into the MOM. Malfoy, at the MOM, tells Harry that Voldemort knows Harrys 'weakness for heroism'. First Voldemort, assuming that Harry knew about the prophecy, tried Harrys curiosity. When that didn't work he went for this 'weakness for heroism'. Now that Voldemort knows how to work the connection to Harry he certainly can sense Harry feelings, too, right? And therefore knows exactly when Harry takes the bait.
Getting the prophecy than has to be a quick action anyway, I don't think you can occupy the Ministry for too long a time. So with everybody ready and prepared Voldemort can send his DEs in just in time.
And, as popkin states, The only surprise was that Harry didn't come alone.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 3:47 am (#527 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 5:03 am
Romana
For my part I am assuming Snape has changed sides for ever,...
Yes, or at least isn't on Voldemorts site. I'm quite sure of that, too.
...Snape has a very good reason for hating Voldemort, we just don't know what it is yet. Probably, and until JKR lets us know, only fanfic and a Crytall Ball can tell (sighs).
In my opinon it would make no sense to have Snapes trial before then, ...
Well, it's Weeny Owls theory. But you're right. Even if Voldemort tolerated that, he probably would have had some trouble to explain it to the other DEs. Or at least it doesn't seem to make sense that Lucius still 'speaks highly' of Snape.
"So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten."
Thank you for this one! Nearly knocked me off my chair. Yes, as a spy Snape is probably worthless (I mentioned that before), but Voldemort might have accepted him back, taking the opportunity to have at least someone inside Hogwarts and close to Dumbledore. For what purpose ever. And I do sense a connection to Lucius, too. I can see them using Harry and Dumbledore to defeat Voldemort, hope for Dumbledore to die soon, maybe get rid of Harry -the stupid brat- and than try to get rid of each other. Ha! Maybe the next 5 or so books are about ?Luna Lovegood? fighting the two most evil wizards in the world. Sorry, I?m getting a bit hilarious. But yes, there?s something about them.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Oct 24, 2003 4:58 am (#528 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 5:59 am
"So THAT what the burning on my arm meant? You know after all these years I'd completly forgotten."
Well if you're a faithfull DE, then you wouldn't forget such a thing. Besides, if you've got some memory you wouldn't remember, and we know that Snape has got good memory, and LV knows this as well (and better than any of us, too). I preffer the "I had my duties at Hogwarts, I couldn't come right away" (can't remember who pointed that out), or Timrew's "I had to leave Hogwarts grounds becuase you can't apparate there, that's why I'm late".
Either way, these last posts have been a bit confusing, I'm also reading them too quickly because my time is almost up in this computer! What's worse is all be gone for the whole weekend and I'll return on Sunday, so I'll have alot to catch up on.... Well everyone, have a nice weekend!
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 7:17 am (#529 of 644)
Heh, heh. Ok, so d'you think DD wrote a "note" for Snape to bring to the Dark Lord, explaining why he's late? hee.
But on a serious note, I still think Snape went to DD b4 all the big trials took place. That he was accused along with the others, but by that time was already working with DD and so was vouched for. Of course, I think Snape went to DD after hearing about the prophecy and a combination of life debt and moral reasoning lead him to Dumbledore.
But even if Snape is just biding his time for Voldemort and Dumbledore to die, I wouldn't be upset. I mean, he can be faithful to Dumbledore up to the very end. But eventually both DD and the Dark Lord will be gone, and Snape is a pretty young guy. He's got to think of his long-term future.
popkin - Oct 24, 2003 7:34 am (#530 of 644)
?And then I ask myself, perhaps they believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?
?And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort?perhaps they now pay allegiance to another?perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?? GOF ch33 p648
Maybe LV is describing Snape (among others) in this quote. Maybe Snape didn't want to be allied to the losing side, so he switched.
It could be that he waited for an opportune moment to leave LV - it definitely had to be before LVs downfall, because it was important for Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust. If Snape had waited until after LVs fall, Dumbledore (and everybody else) would have figured he falsely claimed to have been duped, imperioed, or blackmailed. When Snape became aware of vital information about LVs plans to get to the Potters and dispose of Harry, perhaps he thought, "now is my chance. I will warn Dumbledore and gain his trust."
I'm sure that warning Dumbledore that James was in danger is somehow tied in to Snape's lifedebt to James, but I can also see him using the situation to his advantage.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2003 8:32 am (#531 of 644)
Whatever you say about Snape, I don't believe he is devious. By devious, I mean I don't believe he is hiding behind DD robes for his protection while actually planning double cross DD and go back to Lord Voldemort. Despite the grease in his hair, he doesn't seem the type for that kind of slimy act. I think he is strong in his convictions once he has really made up his mind.
Weeny Owl - Oct 24, 2003 8:56 am (#532 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 9:57 am
What I am saying is that the reason Dumbledore could vouch for Snape was because of something that happened a fairly long time (at least a year or two) before Godric's Hollow and Harry's parents dying. Something that gave Dumbledore no doubt whatsoever of Snape's loyalty and his honest intention of helping defeat Voldie.
The trials happened after Voldie's defeat, and when Snape's name was brought up before the Wizengamot, Dumbledore knew what Snape had been doing as a spy so Snape was either never actually tried or he was and was cleared. Snape was never in Azkaban.
As to his cover possibly being blown during Karkaroff's trial, if it was Voldie's idea in the first place to have Snape spying on Dumbledore, then Voldie would be filled with glee that Dumbledore has no idea there's a spy at Hogwarts. Voldie would think he and Snape had really pulled a fast one on old Dumbledore.
As for Voldie explaining anything to the Death Eaters, he wouldn't bother. He's the big kahuna and they're mere underlings. His plans aren't their business unless they're being told to do something.
If Voldie thinks Snape is actually on Dumbledore's side and is the traitor (the one who has left forever), he could have Snape killed anytime he wanted. Lucius could lure Snape to Malfoy Manor where a happy group of Death Eaters could have a "let's Crucio Snape and then Avada Kedavra him for our master" party. If the traitor is Karkaroff, he's fled, maybe back to Durmstrang or maybe not, but he would be a bit harder to track down than Snape.
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 9:50 am (#533 of 644)
I agree, Weeny Owl. Snape is just plain too accessible to be on Voldemort's hit list.
Snape seems like a very resourceful, strategic man. I've no doubt he chose his moment to act, and didn't just go running in panic to Dumbledore for protection. JKR said to "keep an eye on ol' Severus" and some may take that to mean he is up to no good. But I just think he's got a few tricks up his sleeve which will blow us away, when we find out all he's been up to to protect Potter and fool the Death Eaters.
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 9:52 am (#534 of 644)
Hm, I've alway thought that Snapes dept to James was somehow 'inherited' by Harry. Maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm not, it means that Snape can't possibly be on Voldemorts side, even if he wanted. It would mean that he has to protect Harry and save his life at least once. But Harry, whatever he does, is pretty well protected by Dumbledore - hardly a chance for Snape to free himself.
And, if Snape is on good terms with Voldemort, why is he going pale when he's sent off to his task at the end of GoF? It's certainly not just his turn to take out Trelawney for a drink?
popkin - Oct 24, 2003 10:47 am (#535 of 644)
Aquiline, Snape feels he owes Harry a life debt because of what James did to save Snape. You're right.
Gina R Snape - Oct 24, 2003 1:31 pm (#536 of 644)
Yes, but the question is when does that life debt expire? How much does he have to do to fulfill that debt? He's been fulfilling that debt in one way or another for the past 5 years. Or is it a literal thing? Does he physically have to step in to prevent Harry's immediate demise? Because, in that case, his debt would have been repaid in book 1 when he muttered his counter curse against Quirrell.
It is particularly cruel, however, to think he can never repay his debt because Dumbledore is doing it all the time, and is therefore stuck in an unwanted residence and career. Heaven knows I'd be in a bad mood all the time if I were in that situation!
Oh, and Aquiline, I think no matter how good terms a person may be on with the Dark Lord, he's still got to be a scary person to go pay a visit.
Fawkes8U - Oct 24, 2003 7:13 pm (#537 of 644)
Just finished watching both Harry Potter movies today. What struck me as interesting is the way Snape man-handles, a little bit, Draco during the wizard's duel with Harry. Draco seems to be a little afraid of Snape whenever Harry counterstrikes and lands Draco right in front of Snape. Draco, doesn't seem to be that worried with anyone other than his Dad. It seemed a bit odd to me that Snape, as a teacher, and even as mean as he is to the students in the other houses, would feel so free to command a Death Eater's kid like he does. It makes me wonder. I mean, he shows favoritism towards his students for sure, and I'm sure that he was embarrassed by Draco being helicoptered by Harry, but to shove Lucius's kid?
Aquiline - Oct 24, 2003 11:26 pm (#538 of 644)
Edited Oct 25, 2003 12:27 am
Gina R Snape: ...his debt would have been repaid in book 1 when he muttered his counter curse against Quirrell.
Yes, I thought of that, too. But I doubt that he actually saved Harry's life then. I mean, wizards don't get killed in a car crash, nobody ever got killed in a Qudditch match, Harry fell off his broomstick in PoA and survived...
Rich - Oct 25, 2003 1:08 am (#539 of 644)
Fawkes8U, could the reason he was so forceful with Draco be because he didn't want to see him lose to Harry? Or more likely he didn't want to see Harry win?
Also, we've seen that Lucius wants his son to be better than anyone else (especially mudbloods), so has he had a word to Snape saying that he wants Malfoy to be given good grades?
popkin - Oct 25, 2003 3:56 am (#540 of 644)
Edited by Oct 25, 2003 4:58 am
I think that, regardless of Snape's standing with Voldemort, Lucius is keeping his options open (he's "slippery", remember?). Lucius may not know where Snape stands, but he realizes Snape is in a position to be helpful to him.
Whether Snape is:
1. a true follower of LV
2. a true friend of Dumbledore
3. playing LV and Dumbledore as fools
Lucius is going to use Snape to achieve his ends - a proper education and preferential treatment for his son. And later on, maybe Snape will prove to be useful in other ways - as a "gift" from Lucius to Voldemort, or as an ally in the future design to usurp power from LV.
fidelio - Oct 25, 2003 2:43 pm (#541 of 644)
Edited Oct 25, 2003 3:43 pm
As far as Snape's treatment of Draco in the CoS movie--of course, we can't count on the movies being canon, but here are some possibilities:
Snape was in a bad mood to begin with, not wanting to expose the students to temptation and possible injury with the dueling club Lockhart insisted on foisting on the school. DD may have ordered him to 'help out' to keep things under control, thus forcing him to work with Lockhart, an untalented faker most of the teachers seem to have despised within days of the start of school--and to be treated by Lockhart as an "assistant'!
Snape had also caught some of Lucius' wrath over Draco's poor grades, and was under orders to make sure he buckled down, worked harder, shut up with the whining, and acted like a credit to the Malfoy family and House Slytherin.
Snape has zero tolerance for wimps and whiners, and Draco sounds like both, no matter how 'nicely' Snape is forced to treat him for form's sake.
Snape really likes a good fight, and was having trouble not wading in and reducing Lockhart to chopped liver. Hence, he was even more inclined to be abrupt and short-tempered.
All of the above.
Catherine - Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm (#542 of 644)
Ah, Fidelio, thanks...
Couldn'tve said it better meself.
--Catherine
Gina R Snape - Oct 25, 2003 10:40 pm (#543 of 644)
True, true Fidelio. Plus, just think of all the opportunities he had in that scene to toss his hair!
(Those of you who saw Comic Relief will remember the joke).
timrew - Oct 28, 2003 5:43 pm (#544 of 644)
I think he could have tossed his hair clear across the room, Gina.
Or even hung it over the back of a chair.
Gina R Snape - Oct 28, 2003 7:44 pm (#545 of 644)
aw[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Well, one of the lines in Comic Relief was how the wig looked "so much better this time." Hee.
There's no hair tossing in the books, though. I did notice, however, that JKR seemed to focus more on his nose than his hair in this book. I know there is a thread about hair on the Lex. But, aside from Snape's beautifully prominent proboscis and the chunk missing from Moody's is there mention of anyone else's nose?
Tpujiko4444 - Oct 28, 2003 7:56 pm (#546 of 644)
JKR mentions Dumbledore's nose relatively often. I liked Snape tossing his hair in the movie. I thought that it was a nice touch.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 28, 2003 9:30 pm (#547 of 644)
Ron's nose, I think, is also referred as long in PS/SS.
LadyOfThePensieve - Oct 28, 2003 11:34 pm (#548 of 644)
Hi,
first at all I´m here. Nice to meet you all. And I´m sorry, I´m not a native speaker, so my English probably isn´t completely correct.
About Florence and Snape. I always assumed it must have been Snape who put a hex on Berta, because he is the only one who would overreact in such a way. He got bullied many times, and when Berta tried to teas him he simply got in rage.
But on the other hand it seems not understandable why he got angry because Berta saw him kissing a girl, something which happens very often at hide places in a school. Maybe Florence wasn´t just any girl, but a sister to someone he called his foe? If it was James (it´s quite possible he had a sister, why not?) his reaction becomes more understandable. Hiding his relationship to a Potter sister would make sense, am I wrong? And maybe he was at the same time Sirius rival? Sirius had been completely fixed on James Potter, being together with his sister would have been perfect for him.
Ok, I know I´m going too far, but I think it make sense. Even the "prank" at The Whomping Willow could have been a reaction to Snape´s love interest in Florence, who knows?
Wendy Snelgrove - Oct 29, 2003 1:12 pm (#549 of 644)
I don't know whether I can add anything new to the "Is Snape a spy, a double-agent, for whom" type questions, but I'm going to give it a go.
First, I see the two key pieces of information being as follows:
1. Snape's actions at the end of VW1, including testifying against other DE's, were well known. There was no equivalent of a witness protection programme. I take this most specifically from what Harry saw in DD's pensieve about Karkaroff's trial.
2. Snape does not appear to be vilified or hated by his fellow death eaters. It is hard to justify this completely as a general statement, but it is certainly true that there were opportunities to get him that weren't taken, and Malfoy appears to genuinely like Snape, as opposed to merely tolerate him for appearances sake (consider that he told Umbridge that Snape was a good guy "off camera").
Options as to Snape's status between VW1 and Voldy's return:
a) Snape is on DD's side and is open and honest about this. Not possible because Malfoy wouldn't treat him this way, especially after Voldy came back.
b) Snape is on DD's side and tells the DE's he is on theirs. Entirely possible and most likely, in my opinion. He has to tell the DE's that he only ratted on those who were going down anyways (making the best of a bad situation) in order to infiltrate.
c) Snape is really on Voldy's side and he tells DD he is on his side. Possible, and fits with the existing evidence. Again, he ratted on those DE's who were going down anyways in order to infiltrate. I think this is less likely because I guess I have too much faith in DD.
Then we have an intervening act - Voldy's return. What are the possibilities now:
If
a) Snape is on DD's side and is open and honest about this - then Malfoy isn't nice to him and doesn't refer Umbridge to him, plus everyone wants him dead - so this can't be true.
If
b) Snape was really on DD's side and tolds the DE's he was on their side before Voldy's return then:
i) He continues to engage as a spy - he returns late to the rebirth (sorry, My Lord, but as your other faithful followers will have told you, I infiltrated the enemy to spy awaiting your return. I could not apparate away from Hogwart's, and I didn't want to arouse suspician - I am ready to do as you ask).
ii) He changes to being openly loyal to DD - not possible because of Malfoy's treatment
iii) He switches sides again - same story as #1, but he means it - in other words, he is truly loyal to Voldy - I think this is unlikely however since if he had spent 14 years being truly loyal to DD, then why would Voldemort's appearance change anything
If
c) He is truly loyal to Voldy but lied to DD then,
i) He continues to engage as a spy - he returns late to the rebirth (sorry, My Lord, but as your other faithful followers will have told you, I infiltrated the enemy to spy awaiting your return. I could not apparate away from Hogwart's, and I didn't want to arouse suspician - I am ready to do as you ask).
ii) He switches sides again - same story as #1, but he means it - in other words, he is truly loyal to DD - I think this is unlikely because any conversion to DD would have happened earlier
I don't know if I confused everyone with that. But my main points are these:
- before Voldy comes back, he is truly loyal to one side and lying to the other - which is not certain, but both believe he belongs to them
- after Voldy comes back, he can remain with whatever position he has earlier, or he can switch (there is no difference in behaviour with any switch, because he is telling both sides he is loyal to them and spying on the other - the only difference is in his own true loyalty)
Don't know whether this adds anything but... oh well.
Weeny Owl - Oct 29, 2003 3:34 pm (#550 of 644)
Wendy - " Snape's actions at the end of VW1, including testifying against other DE's, were well known."
Snape didn't testify against other Death Eaters that I can remember. Dumbledore said he had already given evidence of Snape's innocence when Karkaroff accused Snape. Karkaroff definitely named names, but I can't find anything stating specifically that Snape did... only that he was accused and Dumbledore provided adequate testimony that Snape was no longer a Death Eater.
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Maollelujah - Oct 29, 2003 7:49 pm (#551 of 644)
You beat me to it Weeny Owl, I was about to say the same thing.
Aquiline - Oct 30, 2003 6:17 am (#552 of 644)
Hi again, I?ve done some re-reading and found a line I had obviously completely forgotten about. Sirius states in GoF, end of chapter ?Padfoot Returns? that ?...as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much?.
So, thank you very much for putting me on track again, Weeny Owl!
Now, and I?m not meaning to offend anybody, where is it stated that he was accused?
What bothered me over the weekend was the Occlumency lessons. I?ve done some research, but still felt left with the following nagging questions. Please forgive me if I?ve overlooked something, but I still find 500plus posts a bit hard to handle. So here?s what I came up with:
1) Who does Snape really hide his thoughts from? Harry, Voldemort or himself?
By now, I go for the last option. Snape doesn?t seem to be too pleased with this job, and Dumbledore (later) admits (another) mistake: ?I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong'. I?ve got the impression that Snape is kind of ridding his mind of James in order to be able to do the job, as he seems to have some trouble with ?controlling? his emotions whenever it comes to the Marauders.
2) Why does Snape put his thoughts into the Pensieve right in front of Harrys eyes? He could have done this before and keep them in another room, well hidden from Harrys curiosity.
It took me a while, but then this one just struck me. What if Severus ?you lack subtlety, Potter? Snape is actually giving Harry a sign? Like ?Look, I put those thoughts aside, let?s concentrate on the job? and co-operate, for a change?
3) Why does Snape get so exceptionally angry when he catches Harry in the Pensieve? I don?t remember him getting physical like this before.
Yes, he may be angry about himself having forgotten about the Pensieve. But it doesn?t really fit Snape to forget about something, and he didn?t seem to be leaving in too much of a hurry. But what if he really tried to give Harry a sign and simply didn?t bother to put away the Pensieve because he couldn?t imagine that Harry would take a look into the Pensieve. (Like he couldn?t imagine that Sirius would sent him into the Whomping Willow when there really was a werewolf in there? - Sorry, just struck me.) What?s even worse is that Harry fails to control his curiosity, which is exactly what Voldemort uses against him. And I do trust Snape to gather this much (and a lot more). So Harry not only doesn?t get his message, doesn?t see what it takes Snape to do this job, can?t control his curiosity, doesn?t get the point of his Occlumency lessons and therefore at least wastes Snapes time or even puts him at risk, but Harry even breaks into his memories and maybe even breaks his trust - God knows, I?d throw something bigger than a jar of cockroaches after Harry! Harry probably gets his ?D?s for his poor performance and behaviour in Occlumency. Maybe Snape really does his best and tries to put aside his ?grudge?, but Harrys ignorance is too much to bear?
I can only hope I didn?t waste your time
Gina R Snape - Oct 30, 2003 7:34 am (#553 of 644)
Aquiline, I have been thinking that for the longest. You missed the EZBoard discussion. But, trust is something I thought about a great deal. Snape, for all of his issues, did trust that Harry wouldn't go into his Pensieve. I imagine he has an incredible amount of difficulty trusting anyone. But certain things you just don't do. Snape probably never guessed that he'd have to run out in the middle of a lesson. But it shouldn't have mattered. He placed a potential emergency before his privacy, trusting that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong when left alone in his office. Let's not forget, it wasn't just the pensieve in there. He has books and property and potions ingredients and all other manner of things in his office which Harry should've kept his hands off. And Snape ran out assuming it would all be ok. This--a man who places special wards over his things. I think that says a lot. And Harry totally violated his privacy in a particularly vulnerable way. Harry felt a sense of remorse, but for the wrong reasons. He felt bad knowing Snape was treated that way by people who he thought were better than that. It had nothing to do with Snape's feelings or his privacy. So, I really don't blame poor Severus for getting so angry and acting out impulsively.
I also have no doubt that Harry is a constant reminder for Snape of his own youth. But I'd go even further to say that every day he spends at Hogwarts, in a job he doesn't seem to like, putting his life on the line under Dumbledore's orders, is a daily reminder of the regretful mistake he made in his youth to get that dark mark. If anyone needs a good holiday and strong hug, it's Severus Snape.
popkin - Oct 30, 2003 8:08 am (#554 of 644)
Gina, reading your post, it occurs to me that Snape (and all the teachers and staff at Hogwarts) are tried more severely by their students than most teachers are because they live with their charges day in and day out. The staff at Hogwarts has a more personal role in raising these kids than the teachers in my children's school (for example), because my children come home every day (where they are instructed by their parents).
Now, I can attest that as a parent I do not always behave as I would like my children to behave. When we are out in public I am able to control myself, and, generally speaking, to set an example of behavior that I personally find pleasing. However, in the relaxed atmosphere of home, sometimes I find myself losing my temper with my family and will act in ways that I would never allow myself to act in public.
For Snape, and the rest of the Hogwarts staff, there is no separation between private and public life. In spite of all the decorum Snape might wish to convey, it would take monumental self control to never lose his temper with his students.
Madame Librarian - Oct 30, 2003 8:11 am (#555 of 644)
The last two posts, by Aquiline and Gina, are very insightful and exactly why I love this Forum so much! Thanks, for giving us great ideas to chew on and debate.
The whole business of Harry invading Snape's privacy is so painful to think about. It's a brilliant example of JKR layering the concept of a flawed person--here's Harry (our hero) doing something not so nice, in fact, quite shockingly unethical; in the pensieve memory, we have the Marauders (heroes of the past, idolized by Harry) doing something also shocking and unethical). JKR's has contrived an elegant way of getting her message(s) across without getting preachy or dull. It's one of the most compelling scenes in the book, I think, because it shocks us into thinking hard and soberly about our concept of what a hero is, and challenges us to reconsider all our preconceived notions about Snape and the Marauders.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Oct 30, 2003 9:42 am (#556 of 644)
I do think Snape showed remarkable restraint in only throwing a jar at Harry and later knocking a potion off his desk and giving Harry a zero.
If Snape were truly as horrible as some think, and if he let his negative feelings completely rise to the surface, he could have found a way of letting Filch and his whips have a go at Harry. After all, Harry already has one scar so what are a few more? Umbridge certainly wouldn't have objected.
That he didn't so something that sadistic proves, I think, that regardless of what he may appear to be, there are some lines he wouldn't cross. He does have principles and morals, and while it may relieve some of his stress to taunt Harry, he never really goes too far. There are many little things he'll do when provoked, but causing a student physical harm wouldn't be included.
Harry needs to learn the same lesson about boundaries. As Gina said, there are some things you just don't do.
Gina R Snape - Oct 30, 2003 11:48 am (#557 of 644)
Hey, you guys. I found this incredible cartoon about Snape, and the disappointments in his life. It's by an artist who goes by the name "Glrmonkey" and she's really cool. Go check it out!
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I think she's captured a lot of what we've been discussing on this thread. Keep in mind, she is a Snape fan and so is sympathetic to him here.
schoff [/b]- Oct 30, 2003 12:39 pm (#558 of 644)
Gina: He placed a potential emergency before his privacy, trusting that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong when left alone in his office. Let's not forget, it wasn't just the pensieve in there. He has books and property and potions ingredients and all other manner of things in his office which Harry should've kept his hands off. And Snape ran out assuming it would all be ok. This--a man who places special wards over his things. I think that says a lot
I thought this was a very insightful paragraph, especially considering Snape already believes that Harry has broken into his private office twice before. Snape doesn't strike me as someone who forgets things easily. It says a lot that he thought Harry could be trusted alone for those few minutes.
Weeny Owl - Oct 30, 2003 8:10 pm (#559 of 644)
Wow, Gina, that makes me want to shed a tear or two for our Severus... that last part about not looking anymore? <sniff>
popkin - Oct 30, 2003 10:55 pm (#560 of 644)
Gina, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for the link. The drawings were insightful and masterfully rendered.
Liz Mann - Nov 2, 2003 3:38 pm (#561 of 644)
I've just had an idea as to why James hated Snape so much and his comment in Snape's pensieve memory ("It's not so much what he's done as the fact that he exists if you know what I mean").
Maybe James's father had an affair or something with Snape's mother (explaining Snape's memory of his father having a go at her while young Snape sat in the corner). James's parents could have made up on the condition that he never has anything to do with Mrs Snape again. But then he found out that Snape was his son and couldn't stay away from him and when Mrs Potter found out she ended their marriage or something. James would hate the fact that Snape existed because if Snape hadn't been born his parents would have stayed together.
Grant the Great - Nov 2, 2003 3:59 pm (#562 of 644)
JKR has said that her books will remain appropriate for children (even if they do get darker), so I doubt she'll include infidelity and affairs in her series (at least I hope so).
Rich - Nov 3, 2003 1:07 am (#563 of 644)
I think James' comment was a figure of speech and a lame attmept at showing how 'witty' he is. He was 15, pretentious and had all the confidence in the world. He'd say anything regardless of whether people thought it funny, especially when it comes to Snape.
Dunja - Nov 3, 2003 7:53 am (#564 of 644)
Hi About the pic, I didn't really get: "Remus's arms around him" (boys don't hug). Have you ever thought that Snape could be homosexual (I don't know how to spell it), and that that is cause for all his issues?
Has anyone read Victor Hugo's novel Notre Dame de Paris? Claude Frollo is really the same character as Snape. A bit more fanatic, but you could really see Snape in him
Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 8:40 am (#565 of 644)
Cleo, remember that is one artist's interpretation of Snape's personality and desires, not JKR's.
Also, there is no rule that says boys can't hug, but I'm not interested in a debate about that. JKR has claimed many times that she is not writing specifically for children, but she is very aware that a large portion of her readership is kids, some as young as 5 and 6. There are certain topic areas that simply won't come up, and I do believe the sexual orientation of any one character definitely falls into that area.
The Forum, too, has some younger participants, and it is generally agreed that despite our erudite and complex discussions (except when we're being downright silly), we will follow JKR's example of suitable limits.
As to your other point--I have not read that Hugo book, but your suggestion sounds interesting. Can you offer a little description of the character you mentioned. I do think JKR "borrows" characters, places, legends and more from other classic stories in order to plant ideas in her readers and to embellish her great themes. It is great fun to make comparisons in the hope of finding clues to the outcome of this story.
Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Nov 3, 2003 9:35 am (#566 of 644)
Cleo, One of the "rules" on this forum is that sexual orientation isn't discussed. I debated whether or not to post the link to that drawing, but decided to because I thought the overall message was so powerful and it wasn't exactly 'explicit' of anything in particular.
Interpretations being what they are, in truth I suspect a small part of Snape may have wanted a friendship with the Marauders and he did seem especially curious about where Remus went every month. So, I took that to interpret wanting a friendship. Boys certainly do hug one another as friends and wrap their arms around each other in companionship. Apologies for the generalisation, but I find that to be a much more prevalent thing for boys and men to do in European and Latin-American countries than in North America.
Dunja - Nov 3, 2003 10:45 am (#567 of 644)
I HOPE that JK won't take Claude Froll's life story for Snape's end, because he falls from the highest tower of the church. He was a deacon in Notre Dame and he fell in love with a gipsy girl who he despised. I'm missing words to describe his emotions, but they are very similar to ones Snape has. And another thing, he was very interested in alchemy which was in that time considered witchcraft, and he could get convicted. (Snape's interests in dark magic). It may not be, it's my opinion.
Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 11:29 am (#568 of 644)
Cleo, thanks for the brief description of Froll. There certainly is a parallel to some extant based on your simple recap. If you take the fall to be symbolic, Snape's fall could be a fall from good to evil (in the past, or future) and gypsy girl could equal a Muggle-born (Lily? Petunia?). This is really way over the top on my part since I've never read the story, and am basing this on the merest of mentions be a fellow Forum member. It doesn't really solve any of the mystery either. Ah, well, sometimes one just needs to speculate.
Ciao. Barb
Liz Mann - Nov 3, 2003 11:43 am (#569 of 644)
JK has had strong violence in CoS, she has made Uncle Vernon substitute a very bad word () in OotP and made Dudley say, "Who's Cedric? Your boyfriend?", also in OoP. She doesn't have to go into detail on the affair thing. She's a bit of a rebel when it concerns her writing.
Rich - Nov 3, 2003 3:15 pm (#570 of 644)
I don't want to see JKR compromise her books in order to keep smaller kids happy and to keep the series, well, politically correct. I'm 14 and would have no problems reading about what has been mentioned. But I don't think it's going to happen, my image of Snape doesn't fit in with the cartoon.
Grant the Great - Nov 3, 2003 3:21 pm (#571 of 644)
OK, I'm not a monitor, but let's drop the topic. I also have my opinions on the subject, and I am very tempted to throw out my POV to counter some of yours, but let's please move to a better feature of Snape. Here, I'll start (my new topic is stupid, but I really want the topic to change:
Ummm :searching mind for any idea: . . . What do you think Snape's position as a Death Eater was? Was he a spy for Voldemort? He could be useful in other areas (ie. poisoning, mind-breaker, etc.). Please give me your ideas.
Gina R Snape - Nov 3, 2003 3:28 pm (#572 of 644)
Excellent idea, Grant!
I think Snape rose fairly high fairly quickly because of his connexion to Malfoy. But I find it very interesting that Sirius never heard that Snape had become a death eater. Which has got me wondering if he's played both sides of the fence from the beginning. He's very smart and gifted at potions. He told the kids in PS/SS that he could put a stopper on death. That's a very interesting statement considering the Dark Lord spent years trying to find ways to keep from dying.
Madam Pince - Nov 3, 2003 4:49 pm (#573 of 644)
I have long thought that those comments made in Snape's first class could be very telling. Good theory, Gina, on the "Stopper in death" one.
Remember, Snape gave the class that information on werewolves in PoA because he was trying to prod them into discovering something. He wasn't about to tell them outright, but he sure wanted to lead them right to it! That got me to thinking about the three questions he asked Harry in SS at his first class -- "What would I get if I added powdered root of asophodel to an infusion of wormwood?" (ans: a powerful sleeping potion known as the Draught of the Living Death) "Where would I go to find a bezoar?" (ans: bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat which would save you from most poisons) "What is the difference between monkshood and wolfsbane?" (ans: same plant also known as aconite).
Hmmmmmm...certainly the first two of those questions would have been VERY helpful to our young hero had he remembered them when he was going through the enchantments guarding the Sorceror's Stone! He could've used the Draught of the Living Death on Fluffy, and it would've been nice to have had the bezoar as a 'just-in-case' when he was drinking the potions after having solved the riddle. I'm not sure yet about the third question since I'm not quite sure what that plant does -- sounds like it could fend off werewolves maybe?
Can't you just hear Severus now..."For pity's SAKE, boy, I GAVE you the answers to set you on your way -- why can't you pay attention?" On some occasions, at least, I really do think that Severus is not being nasty so much as he's just trying to push the students to learn on their own -- he merely has a ...um...different way of doing it. I had a teacher once who was sort of like that. I guess the charitable way of looking on it is to say that they are being "challenging" teachers. Then later they can say to you "Don't blame ME because you failed -- I GAVE you all the tools you needed! You need to take SOME responsibility on to yourself for learning what you need to know!"
And really, they are absolutely right.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Nov 4, 2003 6:48 am (#574 of 644)
Hi, so nice to be back! (cought up with school and about 100 asignmentes, hehe). I've missed out on alot and I've read all the posts I've missed out on, and I'd answer a few of them but I really wouldn't be saying anything new.
Gina R. Snape: "Sirius never heard that Snape had become a death eater". Wasn't it that Sirius had never heard that Snape had become a convicted death eather? I recall him knowing Snape was a death eater, but that he wasn't tried for it and that he didn't go to Azkaban, then he says something like "not that it means much", or something along those lines. I remember reading it from the messages that were posted here while I was gone.
Madam Pince, the Draught of the Living death and the stone that saves you from most potions comment was great, I didn't think they could have any significance, but you did get me thinking. OK, so Harry didn't use them in PS, but what if he does remember them in the future books? I would say it's unlikely, because in his DADA OWL exam he recalled the levitating spell thanks to the troll they had knocked down in PS; remembering "technical" stuff,though, like specific stones and what they do might be harder for Harry, but hey, it's possible, right?
(Gina and Sly Girl, great "display pics" you've got there!)
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 7:16 am (#575 of 644)
In GoF, chapter "Padfoot Returns" Sirius says:
"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half thekids in seventh year, and he was part of ag ang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters...But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater -- not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught. And Snape's certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble."
Upon rereading it, what struck me immediately interesting was that Sirius didn't seem to know about the location of the DE's dark marks. He was imprisoned already during the DE trials, yet saw prisoners being taken in. He has half information. Obviously JKR uses him to throw us off the trail of what is really going on. But Sirius knows just enough to keep us in doubt until the end of GoF about 'ol Severus. I can't help but wonder how many people do know about Snape. Which makes me think even more that Karkaroff is a big loose cannon out there somewhere.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Nov 4, 2003 7:54 am (#576 of 644)
Oops!(my face is blushing right now, hehe), thanks Gina.
I don't have my GoF book here now, but is Sirius present (as a dog) when Sirius shows Fudge his dark mark?
About Sirius having half the information, didn't DD tell him everything when he joined the Order? Before joining them, and if he wasn't present when Snape showed Fudge his dark mark, he might not have known about the dark mark. But I think that when he joined the Order, he was told everything that needed, right? Just an assumption.
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 8:17 am (#577 of 644)
That scene in GoF I quoted before is before Snape shows Fudge his dark mark. But when Snape lifts his sleeve and steps forward, Sirius is there, unknown to Snape, in his canine form.
Fawkesy Lady - Nov 4, 2003 8:57 am (#578 of 644)
Madam Pince and Gina were discussing the idea during Harry's first year that Snape could teach them how to "put a stopper in death." It is a very interesting statement. I'd like to know what he's talking about and why didn't he help Voldy when he was a Death Eater. Or did JKR put that line in to help keep our minds on that it was Snape after the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone and not Quirrell?
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 9:48 am (#579 of 644)
We don't know exactly how he helped the Dark Lord when in his service. He may very well have created or reproduced said death-stopping serum. But it could be something impermanent, like the Philosopher's Stone. That you drink the elixir and it works for a bit and then wears off. It could be that Snape stopped making it for the Dark Lord. Maybe the ingredients were too difficult to come by. Maybe it had side effects the Dark Lord did not like.
Thinking about Snape's infamous speech, though, it does strike me how incredibly Slytherin it is. It's all about learning how to control people through potions. Bewitching the mind...ensnaring the senses... It's all terribly hypnotic and sensual, and sounds exactly like the kind of thing the Dark Lord would like to use potions for. He doesn't mention teaching the kids how to control the afflictions of lycanthropy or reduce swelling or regrow bones, which are also all done through potions. No, I think his speech was memorable enough to Snape fans like me and non-fans alike that those lessons about the Draught of Living Death, Bezoars and such could come back at some point. Come to think of it, Harry did forget to put a bezoar in his potion once in class.
Madam Pince - Nov 4, 2003 10:04 am (#580 of 644)
Exactly. And we don't really know for sure -- maybe Snape DID help Voldy "put a stopper in death." After all, Voldy didn't die, did he? Perhaps he would've died after his curse on Harry rebounded, except for the fact that he'd drunk some potion of Snape's which ended up "stoppering" death. Of course, we are told that Snape had already turned away from the Dark Side by the time that curse was administered, but perhaps he had given Voldy the potion a long time before, and it was still effective, or maybe Voldy had held onto it and just taken it at a later date.
Wow, what a load of guilt for dear Severus to be carrying around -- if he knows that a potion of his is what has kept the Dark Lord around all this time...
Lucretia S. Malfoy - Nov 4, 2003 2:24 pm (#581 of 644)
Aconite
Botanical: Aconitum napellus (LINN.) Family: N.O. Ranunculaciae
---Synonyms---Monkshood. Blue Rocket. Friar's Cap. Auld Wife's Huid. ---Part Used---The whole plant. ---Habitat---Lower mountain slopes of North portion of Eastern Hemisphere. From Himalayas through Europe to Great Britain.
In the Anglo-Saxon vocabularies it is called thung, which seems to have been a general name for any very poisonous plant. It was then called Aconite (the English form of its Greek and Latin name), later Wolf's Bane, the direct translation of the Greek Iycotonum, derived from the idea that arrows tipped with the juice, or baits anointed with it, would kill wolves - the species mentioned by Dioscorides seems to have been Aconitum lycotonum. In the Middle Ages it became Monkshood and Helmet-flower, from the curious shape of the upper sepal overtopping the rest of the flower. This was the ordinary name in Shakespeare's days.
Hermionefan(#1) - Nov 4, 2003 6:18 pm (#582 of 644)
Oh, I so wanted to believe Snape was good. It's like the start of the thread says : Some of us love to love him. And then again it's also like I said in another thread (I forgot which one ), that could be due mainly to the fact that Alan Rickman plays him in the movies. But then JKR's got to go say don't get to fond of him. And I don't want to try and decipher this message, thank you very much, because I'd much rather defend poor Snape.
Weeny Owl - Nov 4, 2003 8:22 pm (#583 of 644)
Hermionefan:
JKR said something about not thinkng Snape too nice and that he was worth keeping an eye on. She's written him to be nasty, unpleasant, vengeful, and probably not someone you'd want as a next-door neighbor.
That doesn't preclude the possibility that he is good or at least on the side of good.
He has an unpleasant personality at times, but at others he can be funny. He loves getting in his digs at those who annoy him but he's never, at least that we've been shown so far, actually physically hurt a student. Even though he loathes Harry, he's done his best to see that Harry comes to no harm. He did give away Lupin's secret, but at the same time he made the potion for Lupin all year.
There are many things he's said and done that may appear to be one way but may not be quite what they seem.
We may find out he did horrible things as a Death Eater, but he's reformed himself... at least to Dumbledore's satisfaction.
He'll never be a fluffy bunny rabbit, but comfort yourself with the fact that most likely he'll never in a million years be as utterly disgusting as Umbridge.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 4, 2003 9:45 pm (#584 of 644)
Yes Gina, I believe it was in GoF that Harry forgot to use the Bezoar. It seemed to me to be an after thought, that he forgot to add the Bezoar, after it's significant introdution in PS/SS.
Grant the Great - Nov 4, 2003 10:24 pm (#585 of 644)
Before the subject gets too far the from the "stoppering death" subject, I'd like to throw in my two cents. The way I always interpreted the sentence was that he was stoppering, or sealing a bottle, of some freshly brewed lethal poison. In that sense, he was bottling up death, not creating something that would stop death. Just thought I'd say this. Just a thought. I, personally, still think that might be a more accurate interpretation.
schoff - Nov 4, 2003 11:59 pm (#586 of 644)
When I heard that line, I thought of "Romeo and Juliet"--that poison Juliet takes that makes Romeo think she's dead. I thought that might come into play later.
Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2003 2:11 pm (#587 of 644)
Idea: maybe Harry will fight Voldie and get mortally wounded. Voldie is defeated, Harry is lying there dying. Snape has to save him with the 'stopper death' thing.
Madam Pince - Nov 5, 2003 2:22 pm (#588 of 644)
Very good point, Grant. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right -- a very literal reading of it does sound like preparing a bottle of death, and it goes along better that way with "bottle fame" and "brew glory." Of course, "putting a stopper in death" in that manner doesn't seem like it'd be too difficult; some of my recipes have turned out sorta like that without my even trying! But it would be harder, and more useful also, to make a potion like what schoff describes. Hmmmmm....wonder which it was? Could go either way. I really like the idea of Snape having "saved" Voldy with a death-stoppering potion and then regretting it later, though.
Edit: yeah, Liz, I like that idea too!
timrew - Nov 5, 2003 4:10 pm (#589 of 644)
And if Voldy was denied any more of the Snape potion, it could explain why he was reduced to drinking Unicorn's blood....or Nagini venom....shaken, not stirred, with an olive on a stick, in a dirty glass......
Taylor Buetts - Nov 5, 2003 4:15 pm (#590 of 644)
I don't know if he'll return to Voldemort, but I do know that in an interview with JKR she said that the readers shouldn't get to attached to Snape. Not saying that he'll die or anything, it just means we shouldn't think he's all good. For reference the interview was I believe the Royal Albert Hall or something along those lines.
P.S. i do love Snape! I don't care if he's evil.
Gina R Snape - Nov 5, 2003 8:54 pm (#591 of 644)
Actually, she said it's worth keeping an eye on 'ol Severus, that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him. Not that we shouldn't get too attached to him. Big difference, in my opinion! As such, I think we are going to learn a great deal more about the dastardly deeds he's done as a death eater. But, for me anyway, it'll only make it that much richer to show his redemption.
And Tim, I'm not so sure Voldemort would be fussy about a dirty glass. But maybe he'd prefer a cocktail onion over an olive?
popkin - Nov 6, 2003 2:29 pm (#592 of 644)
A couple of questions for everyone:
1. OotP, US, CH13, p271, Harry had never before considered the possibility that there might be another teacher in the world he hated more than Snape, but as he walked back toward Gryffindor Tower he had to admit he had found a contender. 'She's evil," he thought, as he climbed a staircase to the seventh floor, 'she's an evil, twisted, mad, old--'
Do you think Umbridge was put in (in part) to contrast with Snape so we could see that he is, by comparison, a responsible teacher and a caring individual, OR to throw us off his scent?
2. Do you think that every time Snape gives an essay assignment that JKR is giving us a homework assignment as well? Since the werewolf assignment panned out, do you think that the moonstone assignment will too? Has he given any other homework assignments that we should pursue?
Gina R Snape - Nov 6, 2003 8:11 pm (#593 of 644)
Umbridge was clearly a character who brought things up a notch, as it were, in the sadism department. She did make Snape seem reasonable even for those who do not like him. But I doubt she did it simply to draw the comparison. Maybe for Harry to realise there are gradations of meanness and dislike. I don't know.
As for lessons in the lessons, I don't know about every essay. But in book 2 Snape gives them an assignment on how to detect if something has been poisoned or tampered with, and I'm DEFINITELY waiting for that lesson to come back. JKR dropped it in the conversation so off-handedly that I think it's surely bound to come back.
On a side note, I am bursting with joy but don't know where exactly to post this. But I went to the Love Actually premiere and met Emma Thompson and, yes, pant, I met Alan RIckman today!!!!!!!
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 6, 2003 9:14 pm (#594 of 644)
Gina, when I saw Alan Rickman on the ad for this movie I jumped out of my seat and wanted to run and call you or post to you right away. Congratulations!
Now something related to the thread, when Umbridge was inspecting Snapes class Harry did same something to the effect that he didn't know which which would like to see lose in a battle of the wills Umbridge vs. Snape. (I posted this info somewhere else but can't find it now, sorry)
Gina R Snape - Nov 6, 2003 9:22 pm (#595 of 644)
Thanks, Maritza! Rest assured, I manage to stay abreast one way or another on every upcoming project of Mr. Rickman.
It's actually got me wondering if we should start a thread on the actors. But I don't know if Kip et al. would consider that too "off topic."
And, just to stay on topic, I wonder if Harry will ever again have a teacher he hates more than Severus Snape.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 7, 2003 5:06 am (#596 of 644)
After the the end of the fifth book, I doubt it.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 7, 2003 10:12 pm (#597 of 644)
Allright, when a person asked in an interview if Snape will ever fall in love, JKR said "Who would want Snape in love with them? That would be horrible." Now I was wondering how do you think Snape would act towards the person he loves. Now, I am not one of those people who believes that he will auromaticall become this wonderful person when he falls in love, but I do not think that he will be nasty to the person he loves, if they return his love. I think that he would be abusive if they did not return his love, maybe not on purpose. But, if they did, I think that he would be possesive, perhaps to the point of obbsession. I think that he would also be a litte clingy, but he would be loyal. What do you guys think? I do not know why this interested me, but ever since I read that interview, I have been wondering about that.
Weeny Owl - Nov 8, 2003 12:03 am (#598 of 644)
That's an interesting question, Tpujiko.
Snape in love and Snape in an actual relationship aren't one and the same mainly because until Voldie is defeated, I don't believe Snape would allow himself to become involved with anyone. That doesn't mean he wouldn't feel things, but I don't think he'd act on his feelings unless there was an element of safety for anyone involved.
Assuming he lives through the next Voldie War and has a love interest, I think he'd take as much care with her as he does with brewing potions. I could see him being very attentive and taking great care with details such as anniversaries and birthdays. I would definitely see him as loyal.
I can also see him using his razor-sharp tongue when provoked, and holding grudges on occasion, but I don't see him as being physically abusive.
I'm not totally convinced that he would ever let himself care for someone, though. He doesn't seem the type to open up or share himself in the way a relationship needs.
Anyone who would be attracted to him would need a great deal of patience in breaking through his emotional barriers and tolerating or even appreciating his sarcasm.
I think he'd need a woman who is as strong as he is... anyone too shy or unsure of herself would just be steamrollered by him.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 8, 2003 4:23 am (#599 of 644)
I agree with most of what you said Weeny Owl. Yes, no matter how much he loved someone, he probably would not be with that person for safety reasons. However, I did not mean physical abuse. I can very easily see him being verbaly abusive with someone who did not return his love, intentional or nonintentional, as a way to deal with the pain of unrequited love. I also do not think that Snape is the type of man to actively look for love or anyting like that; however, if he found the right women, I think that it would be really hard for him to keep himself from caring for her. It does seem hard for him to control particularly strong emotions. If he were with someone who was a little shy, I think it would bring out his protective side. If this were the case, I believe he would be a little like Spike, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, when he was with Drusilla.
Gina R Snape - Nov 8, 2003 7:28 am (#600 of 644)
Oh, this is indeed dangerous ground to tread. If we try to stick to canon, and not flights of fancy leading toward fanfiction, I think we might find the following.
First and foremost, Snape would be extremely loyal. I think he would be extremely protective and very worried for the safety of his beloved. I think he would not be prone to public displays of affection. He strikes me as incredibly private. He certainly would take a very long time to get to know someone before becoming romantically involved. I suspect he'd do a great deal of background research on the person, and would need a very long time before he truly felt he could completely trust her. Since he's a spy, and a Slytherin, and Snape is generally paranoid, she'd have to reckon with that triple wammy of suspicion.
In addition, there's evidence that he was abused as a child, which would also engender trust issues. I do agree that his love would have to be patient and intelligent and forgiving and strong. Snape would have to feel like he'd met his match. Maybe even his superior, though he'd be in denial of it. There is a big part of me that suspects Snape thinks he wants to be in charge, but is really more confortable with someone else as leader.
I could see the Snape household being a very unpleasant place when squabbles ensued. But if he loved his partner he'd find a way to get over it. Actually, now that I think on it, she would have to be the one more in charge in the family for him not to ruin or abandon the relationship. I could see him getting very mean and then regretting it, holding terrible grudges and not forgiving, unless she was again that patient, understanding and very strong person who could gently put him back in his place.
What would be extremely tricky is timing. If they were together when he was a DE, then I suspect she'd be a supporter and he couldn't stay with her. If it were after he'd left the DE ranks, she'd have to be exceptionally trustworthy and strong. Ah, maybe Snape will find love in the Order. That would actually be a perfect place for them to meet! I don't see any romantic partner of Snape's being politically neutral or uninvolved. He's in too deep and would need someone he could talk with when the pressure got to be too much. And she'd have to understand and empathise which I don't think you can do if you're out of the loop or not intelligent. Someone McGonagall-like, only closer to his own age I think.
Oh, and I think she'd find our dear Severus very attractive and bewildered by the horrid descriptions of his hooked nose and greasy hair. She would have a different 'take' on his looks and be proud to stand by his side. After all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Snape deserves someone who doesn't think he is a "greasy git."
;coughGinacough:
You beat me to it Weeny Owl, I was about to say the same thing.
Aquiline - Oct 30, 2003 6:17 am (#552 of 644)
Hi again, I?ve done some re-reading and found a line I had obviously completely forgotten about. Sirius states in GoF, end of chapter ?Padfoot Returns? that ?...as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much?.
So, thank you very much for putting me on track again, Weeny Owl!
Now, and I?m not meaning to offend anybody, where is it stated that he was accused?
What bothered me over the weekend was the Occlumency lessons. I?ve done some research, but still felt left with the following nagging questions. Please forgive me if I?ve overlooked something, but I still find 500plus posts a bit hard to handle. So here?s what I came up with:
1) Who does Snape really hide his thoughts from? Harry, Voldemort or himself?
By now, I go for the last option. Snape doesn?t seem to be too pleased with this job, and Dumbledore (later) admits (another) mistake: ?I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong'. I?ve got the impression that Snape is kind of ridding his mind of James in order to be able to do the job, as he seems to have some trouble with ?controlling? his emotions whenever it comes to the Marauders.
2) Why does Snape put his thoughts into the Pensieve right in front of Harrys eyes? He could have done this before and keep them in another room, well hidden from Harrys curiosity.
It took me a while, but then this one just struck me. What if Severus ?you lack subtlety, Potter? Snape is actually giving Harry a sign? Like ?Look, I put those thoughts aside, let?s concentrate on the job? and co-operate, for a change?
3) Why does Snape get so exceptionally angry when he catches Harry in the Pensieve? I don?t remember him getting physical like this before.
Yes, he may be angry about himself having forgotten about the Pensieve. But it doesn?t really fit Snape to forget about something, and he didn?t seem to be leaving in too much of a hurry. But what if he really tried to give Harry a sign and simply didn?t bother to put away the Pensieve because he couldn?t imagine that Harry would take a look into the Pensieve. (Like he couldn?t imagine that Sirius would sent him into the Whomping Willow when there really was a werewolf in there? - Sorry, just struck me.) What?s even worse is that Harry fails to control his curiosity, which is exactly what Voldemort uses against him. And I do trust Snape to gather this much (and a lot more). So Harry not only doesn?t get his message, doesn?t see what it takes Snape to do this job, can?t control his curiosity, doesn?t get the point of his Occlumency lessons and therefore at least wastes Snapes time or even puts him at risk, but Harry even breaks into his memories and maybe even breaks his trust - God knows, I?d throw something bigger than a jar of cockroaches after Harry! Harry probably gets his ?D?s for his poor performance and behaviour in Occlumency. Maybe Snape really does his best and tries to put aside his ?grudge?, but Harrys ignorance is too much to bear?
I can only hope I didn?t waste your time
Gina R Snape - Oct 30, 2003 7:34 am (#553 of 644)
Aquiline, I have been thinking that for the longest. You missed the EZBoard discussion. But, trust is something I thought about a great deal. Snape, for all of his issues, did trust that Harry wouldn't go into his Pensieve. I imagine he has an incredible amount of difficulty trusting anyone. But certain things you just don't do. Snape probably never guessed that he'd have to run out in the middle of a lesson. But it shouldn't have mattered. He placed a potential emergency before his privacy, trusting that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong when left alone in his office. Let's not forget, it wasn't just the pensieve in there. He has books and property and potions ingredients and all other manner of things in his office which Harry should've kept his hands off. And Snape ran out assuming it would all be ok. This--a man who places special wards over his things. I think that says a lot. And Harry totally violated his privacy in a particularly vulnerable way. Harry felt a sense of remorse, but for the wrong reasons. He felt bad knowing Snape was treated that way by people who he thought were better than that. It had nothing to do with Snape's feelings or his privacy. So, I really don't blame poor Severus for getting so angry and acting out impulsively.
I also have no doubt that Harry is a constant reminder for Snape of his own youth. But I'd go even further to say that every day he spends at Hogwarts, in a job he doesn't seem to like, putting his life on the line under Dumbledore's orders, is a daily reminder of the regretful mistake he made in his youth to get that dark mark. If anyone needs a good holiday and strong hug, it's Severus Snape.
popkin - Oct 30, 2003 8:08 am (#554 of 644)
Gina, reading your post, it occurs to me that Snape (and all the teachers and staff at Hogwarts) are tried more severely by their students than most teachers are because they live with their charges day in and day out. The staff at Hogwarts has a more personal role in raising these kids than the teachers in my children's school (for example), because my children come home every day (where they are instructed by their parents).
Now, I can attest that as a parent I do not always behave as I would like my children to behave. When we are out in public I am able to control myself, and, generally speaking, to set an example of behavior that I personally find pleasing. However, in the relaxed atmosphere of home, sometimes I find myself losing my temper with my family and will act in ways that I would never allow myself to act in public.
For Snape, and the rest of the Hogwarts staff, there is no separation between private and public life. In spite of all the decorum Snape might wish to convey, it would take monumental self control to never lose his temper with his students.
Madame Librarian - Oct 30, 2003 8:11 am (#555 of 644)
The last two posts, by Aquiline and Gina, are very insightful and exactly why I love this Forum so much! Thanks, for giving us great ideas to chew on and debate.
The whole business of Harry invading Snape's privacy is so painful to think about. It's a brilliant example of JKR layering the concept of a flawed person--here's Harry (our hero) doing something not so nice, in fact, quite shockingly unethical; in the pensieve memory, we have the Marauders (heroes of the past, idolized by Harry) doing something also shocking and unethical). JKR's has contrived an elegant way of getting her message(s) across without getting preachy or dull. It's one of the most compelling scenes in the book, I think, because it shocks us into thinking hard and soberly about our concept of what a hero is, and challenges us to reconsider all our preconceived notions about Snape and the Marauders.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Oct 30, 2003 9:42 am (#556 of 644)
I do think Snape showed remarkable restraint in only throwing a jar at Harry and later knocking a potion off his desk and giving Harry a zero.
If Snape were truly as horrible as some think, and if he let his negative feelings completely rise to the surface, he could have found a way of letting Filch and his whips have a go at Harry. After all, Harry already has one scar so what are a few more? Umbridge certainly wouldn't have objected.
That he didn't so something that sadistic proves, I think, that regardless of what he may appear to be, there are some lines he wouldn't cross. He does have principles and morals, and while it may relieve some of his stress to taunt Harry, he never really goes too far. There are many little things he'll do when provoked, but causing a student physical harm wouldn't be included.
Harry needs to learn the same lesson about boundaries. As Gina said, there are some things you just don't do.
Gina R Snape - Oct 30, 2003 11:48 am (#557 of 644)
Hey, you guys. I found this incredible cartoon about Snape, and the disappointments in his life. It's by an artist who goes by the name "Glrmonkey" and she's really cool. Go check it out!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think she's captured a lot of what we've been discussing on this thread. Keep in mind, she is a Snape fan and so is sympathetic to him here.
schoff [/b]- Oct 30, 2003 12:39 pm (#558 of 644)
Gina: He placed a potential emergency before his privacy, trusting that Harry wouldn't do anything wrong when left alone in his office. Let's not forget, it wasn't just the pensieve in there. He has books and property and potions ingredients and all other manner of things in his office which Harry should've kept his hands off. And Snape ran out assuming it would all be ok. This--a man who places special wards over his things. I think that says a lot
I thought this was a very insightful paragraph, especially considering Snape already believes that Harry has broken into his private office twice before. Snape doesn't strike me as someone who forgets things easily. It says a lot that he thought Harry could be trusted alone for those few minutes.
Weeny Owl - Oct 30, 2003 8:10 pm (#559 of 644)
Wow, Gina, that makes me want to shed a tear or two for our Severus... that last part about not looking anymore? <sniff>
popkin - Oct 30, 2003 10:55 pm (#560 of 644)
Gina, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for the link. The drawings were insightful and masterfully rendered.
Liz Mann - Nov 2, 2003 3:38 pm (#561 of 644)
I've just had an idea as to why James hated Snape so much and his comment in Snape's pensieve memory ("It's not so much what he's done as the fact that he exists if you know what I mean").
Maybe James's father had an affair or something with Snape's mother (explaining Snape's memory of his father having a go at her while young Snape sat in the corner). James's parents could have made up on the condition that he never has anything to do with Mrs Snape again. But then he found out that Snape was his son and couldn't stay away from him and when Mrs Potter found out she ended their marriage or something. James would hate the fact that Snape existed because if Snape hadn't been born his parents would have stayed together.
Grant the Great - Nov 2, 2003 3:59 pm (#562 of 644)
JKR has said that her books will remain appropriate for children (even if they do get darker), so I doubt she'll include infidelity and affairs in her series (at least I hope so).
Rich - Nov 3, 2003 1:07 am (#563 of 644)
I think James' comment was a figure of speech and a lame attmept at showing how 'witty' he is. He was 15, pretentious and had all the confidence in the world. He'd say anything regardless of whether people thought it funny, especially when it comes to Snape.
Dunja - Nov 3, 2003 7:53 am (#564 of 644)
Hi About the pic, I didn't really get: "Remus's arms around him" (boys don't hug). Have you ever thought that Snape could be homosexual (I don't know how to spell it), and that that is cause for all his issues?
Has anyone read Victor Hugo's novel Notre Dame de Paris? Claude Frollo is really the same character as Snape. A bit more fanatic, but you could really see Snape in him
Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 8:40 am (#565 of 644)
Cleo, remember that is one artist's interpretation of Snape's personality and desires, not JKR's.
Also, there is no rule that says boys can't hug, but I'm not interested in a debate about that. JKR has claimed many times that she is not writing specifically for children, but she is very aware that a large portion of her readership is kids, some as young as 5 and 6. There are certain topic areas that simply won't come up, and I do believe the sexual orientation of any one character definitely falls into that area.
The Forum, too, has some younger participants, and it is generally agreed that despite our erudite and complex discussions (except when we're being downright silly), we will follow JKR's example of suitable limits.
As to your other point--I have not read that Hugo book, but your suggestion sounds interesting. Can you offer a little description of the character you mentioned. I do think JKR "borrows" characters, places, legends and more from other classic stories in order to plant ideas in her readers and to embellish her great themes. It is great fun to make comparisons in the hope of finding clues to the outcome of this story.
Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Nov 3, 2003 9:35 am (#566 of 644)
Cleo, One of the "rules" on this forum is that sexual orientation isn't discussed. I debated whether or not to post the link to that drawing, but decided to because I thought the overall message was so powerful and it wasn't exactly 'explicit' of anything in particular.
Interpretations being what they are, in truth I suspect a small part of Snape may have wanted a friendship with the Marauders and he did seem especially curious about where Remus went every month. So, I took that to interpret wanting a friendship. Boys certainly do hug one another as friends and wrap their arms around each other in companionship. Apologies for the generalisation, but I find that to be a much more prevalent thing for boys and men to do in European and Latin-American countries than in North America.
Dunja - Nov 3, 2003 10:45 am (#567 of 644)
I HOPE that JK won't take Claude Froll's life story for Snape's end, because he falls from the highest tower of the church. He was a deacon in Notre Dame and he fell in love with a gipsy girl who he despised. I'm missing words to describe his emotions, but they are very similar to ones Snape has. And another thing, he was very interested in alchemy which was in that time considered witchcraft, and he could get convicted. (Snape's interests in dark magic). It may not be, it's my opinion.
Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 11:29 am (#568 of 644)
Cleo, thanks for the brief description of Froll. There certainly is a parallel to some extant based on your simple recap. If you take the fall to be symbolic, Snape's fall could be a fall from good to evil (in the past, or future) and gypsy girl could equal a Muggle-born (Lily? Petunia?). This is really way over the top on my part since I've never read the story, and am basing this on the merest of mentions be a fellow Forum member. It doesn't really solve any of the mystery either. Ah, well, sometimes one just needs to speculate.
Ciao. Barb
Liz Mann - Nov 3, 2003 11:43 am (#569 of 644)
JK has had strong violence in CoS, she has made Uncle Vernon substitute a very bad word () in OotP and made Dudley say, "Who's Cedric? Your boyfriend?", also in OoP. She doesn't have to go into detail on the affair thing. She's a bit of a rebel when it concerns her writing.
Rich - Nov 3, 2003 3:15 pm (#570 of 644)
I don't want to see JKR compromise her books in order to keep smaller kids happy and to keep the series, well, politically correct. I'm 14 and would have no problems reading about what has been mentioned. But I don't think it's going to happen, my image of Snape doesn't fit in with the cartoon.
Grant the Great - Nov 3, 2003 3:21 pm (#571 of 644)
OK, I'm not a monitor, but let's drop the topic. I also have my opinions on the subject, and I am very tempted to throw out my POV to counter some of yours, but let's please move to a better feature of Snape. Here, I'll start (my new topic is stupid, but I really want the topic to change:
Ummm :searching mind for any idea: . . . What do you think Snape's position as a Death Eater was? Was he a spy for Voldemort? He could be useful in other areas (ie. poisoning, mind-breaker, etc.). Please give me your ideas.
Gina R Snape - Nov 3, 2003 3:28 pm (#572 of 644)
Excellent idea, Grant!
I think Snape rose fairly high fairly quickly because of his connexion to Malfoy. But I find it very interesting that Sirius never heard that Snape had become a death eater. Which has got me wondering if he's played both sides of the fence from the beginning. He's very smart and gifted at potions. He told the kids in PS/SS that he could put a stopper on death. That's a very interesting statement considering the Dark Lord spent years trying to find ways to keep from dying.
Madam Pince - Nov 3, 2003 4:49 pm (#573 of 644)
I have long thought that those comments made in Snape's first class could be very telling. Good theory, Gina, on the "Stopper in death" one.
Remember, Snape gave the class that information on werewolves in PoA because he was trying to prod them into discovering something. He wasn't about to tell them outright, but he sure wanted to lead them right to it! That got me to thinking about the three questions he asked Harry in SS at his first class -- "What would I get if I added powdered root of asophodel to an infusion of wormwood?" (ans: a powerful sleeping potion known as the Draught of the Living Death) "Where would I go to find a bezoar?" (ans: bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat which would save you from most poisons) "What is the difference between monkshood and wolfsbane?" (ans: same plant also known as aconite).
Hmmmmmm...certainly the first two of those questions would have been VERY helpful to our young hero had he remembered them when he was going through the enchantments guarding the Sorceror's Stone! He could've used the Draught of the Living Death on Fluffy, and it would've been nice to have had the bezoar as a 'just-in-case' when he was drinking the potions after having solved the riddle. I'm not sure yet about the third question since I'm not quite sure what that plant does -- sounds like it could fend off werewolves maybe?
Can't you just hear Severus now..."For pity's SAKE, boy, I GAVE you the answers to set you on your way -- why can't you pay attention?" On some occasions, at least, I really do think that Severus is not being nasty so much as he's just trying to push the students to learn on their own -- he merely has a ...um...different way of doing it. I had a teacher once who was sort of like that. I guess the charitable way of looking on it is to say that they are being "challenging" teachers. Then later they can say to you "Don't blame ME because you failed -- I GAVE you all the tools you needed! You need to take SOME responsibility on to yourself for learning what you need to know!"
And really, they are absolutely right.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Nov 4, 2003 6:48 am (#574 of 644)
Hi, so nice to be back! (cought up with school and about 100 asignmentes, hehe). I've missed out on alot and I've read all the posts I've missed out on, and I'd answer a few of them but I really wouldn't be saying anything new.
Gina R. Snape: "Sirius never heard that Snape had become a death eater". Wasn't it that Sirius had never heard that Snape had become a convicted death eather? I recall him knowing Snape was a death eater, but that he wasn't tried for it and that he didn't go to Azkaban, then he says something like "not that it means much", or something along those lines. I remember reading it from the messages that were posted here while I was gone.
Madam Pince, the Draught of the Living death and the stone that saves you from most potions comment was great, I didn't think they could have any significance, but you did get me thinking. OK, so Harry didn't use them in PS, but what if he does remember them in the future books? I would say it's unlikely, because in his DADA OWL exam he recalled the levitating spell thanks to the troll they had knocked down in PS; remembering "technical" stuff,though, like specific stones and what they do might be harder for Harry, but hey, it's possible, right?
(Gina and Sly Girl, great "display pics" you've got there!)
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 7:16 am (#575 of 644)
In GoF, chapter "Padfoot Returns" Sirius says:
"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half thekids in seventh year, and he was part of ag ang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters...But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater -- not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught. And Snape's certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble."
Upon rereading it, what struck me immediately interesting was that Sirius didn't seem to know about the location of the DE's dark marks. He was imprisoned already during the DE trials, yet saw prisoners being taken in. He has half information. Obviously JKR uses him to throw us off the trail of what is really going on. But Sirius knows just enough to keep us in doubt until the end of GoF about 'ol Severus. I can't help but wonder how many people do know about Snape. Which makes me think even more that Karkaroff is a big loose cannon out there somewhere.
Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Nov 4, 2003 7:54 am (#576 of 644)
Oops!(my face is blushing right now, hehe), thanks Gina.
I don't have my GoF book here now, but is Sirius present (as a dog) when Sirius shows Fudge his dark mark?
About Sirius having half the information, didn't DD tell him everything when he joined the Order? Before joining them, and if he wasn't present when Snape showed Fudge his dark mark, he might not have known about the dark mark. But I think that when he joined the Order, he was told everything that needed, right? Just an assumption.
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 8:17 am (#577 of 644)
That scene in GoF I quoted before is before Snape shows Fudge his dark mark. But when Snape lifts his sleeve and steps forward, Sirius is there, unknown to Snape, in his canine form.
Fawkesy Lady - Nov 4, 2003 8:57 am (#578 of 644)
Madam Pince and Gina were discussing the idea during Harry's first year that Snape could teach them how to "put a stopper in death." It is a very interesting statement. I'd like to know what he's talking about and why didn't he help Voldy when he was a Death Eater. Or did JKR put that line in to help keep our minds on that it was Snape after the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone and not Quirrell?
Gina R Snape - Nov 4, 2003 9:48 am (#579 of 644)
We don't know exactly how he helped the Dark Lord when in his service. He may very well have created or reproduced said death-stopping serum. But it could be something impermanent, like the Philosopher's Stone. That you drink the elixir and it works for a bit and then wears off. It could be that Snape stopped making it for the Dark Lord. Maybe the ingredients were too difficult to come by. Maybe it had side effects the Dark Lord did not like.
Thinking about Snape's infamous speech, though, it does strike me how incredibly Slytherin it is. It's all about learning how to control people through potions. Bewitching the mind...ensnaring the senses... It's all terribly hypnotic and sensual, and sounds exactly like the kind of thing the Dark Lord would like to use potions for. He doesn't mention teaching the kids how to control the afflictions of lycanthropy or reduce swelling or regrow bones, which are also all done through potions. No, I think his speech was memorable enough to Snape fans like me and non-fans alike that those lessons about the Draught of Living Death, Bezoars and such could come back at some point. Come to think of it, Harry did forget to put a bezoar in his potion once in class.
Madam Pince - Nov 4, 2003 10:04 am (#580 of 644)
Exactly. And we don't really know for sure -- maybe Snape DID help Voldy "put a stopper in death." After all, Voldy didn't die, did he? Perhaps he would've died after his curse on Harry rebounded, except for the fact that he'd drunk some potion of Snape's which ended up "stoppering" death. Of course, we are told that Snape had already turned away from the Dark Side by the time that curse was administered, but perhaps he had given Voldy the potion a long time before, and it was still effective, or maybe Voldy had held onto it and just taken it at a later date.
Wow, what a load of guilt for dear Severus to be carrying around -- if he knows that a potion of his is what has kept the Dark Lord around all this time...
Lucretia S. Malfoy - Nov 4, 2003 2:24 pm (#581 of 644)
Aconite
Botanical: Aconitum napellus (LINN.) Family: N.O. Ranunculaciae
---Synonyms---Monkshood. Blue Rocket. Friar's Cap. Auld Wife's Huid. ---Part Used---The whole plant. ---Habitat---Lower mountain slopes of North portion of Eastern Hemisphere. From Himalayas through Europe to Great Britain.
In the Anglo-Saxon vocabularies it is called thung, which seems to have been a general name for any very poisonous plant. It was then called Aconite (the English form of its Greek and Latin name), later Wolf's Bane, the direct translation of the Greek Iycotonum, derived from the idea that arrows tipped with the juice, or baits anointed with it, would kill wolves - the species mentioned by Dioscorides seems to have been Aconitum lycotonum. In the Middle Ages it became Monkshood and Helmet-flower, from the curious shape of the upper sepal overtopping the rest of the flower. This was the ordinary name in Shakespeare's days.
Hermionefan(#1) - Nov 4, 2003 6:18 pm (#582 of 644)
Oh, I so wanted to believe Snape was good. It's like the start of the thread says : Some of us love to love him. And then again it's also like I said in another thread (I forgot which one ), that could be due mainly to the fact that Alan Rickman plays him in the movies. But then JKR's got to go say don't get to fond of him. And I don't want to try and decipher this message, thank you very much, because I'd much rather defend poor Snape.
Weeny Owl - Nov 4, 2003 8:22 pm (#583 of 644)
Hermionefan:
JKR said something about not thinkng Snape too nice and that he was worth keeping an eye on. She's written him to be nasty, unpleasant, vengeful, and probably not someone you'd want as a next-door neighbor.
That doesn't preclude the possibility that he is good or at least on the side of good.
He has an unpleasant personality at times, but at others he can be funny. He loves getting in his digs at those who annoy him but he's never, at least that we've been shown so far, actually physically hurt a student. Even though he loathes Harry, he's done his best to see that Harry comes to no harm. He did give away Lupin's secret, but at the same time he made the potion for Lupin all year.
There are many things he's said and done that may appear to be one way but may not be quite what they seem.
We may find out he did horrible things as a Death Eater, but he's reformed himself... at least to Dumbledore's satisfaction.
He'll never be a fluffy bunny rabbit, but comfort yourself with the fact that most likely he'll never in a million years be as utterly disgusting as Umbridge.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 4, 2003 9:45 pm (#584 of 644)
Yes Gina, I believe it was in GoF that Harry forgot to use the Bezoar. It seemed to me to be an after thought, that he forgot to add the Bezoar, after it's significant introdution in PS/SS.
Grant the Great - Nov 4, 2003 10:24 pm (#585 of 644)
Before the subject gets too far the from the "stoppering death" subject, I'd like to throw in my two cents. The way I always interpreted the sentence was that he was stoppering, or sealing a bottle, of some freshly brewed lethal poison. In that sense, he was bottling up death, not creating something that would stop death. Just thought I'd say this. Just a thought. I, personally, still think that might be a more accurate interpretation.
schoff - Nov 4, 2003 11:59 pm (#586 of 644)
When I heard that line, I thought of "Romeo and Juliet"--that poison Juliet takes that makes Romeo think she's dead. I thought that might come into play later.
Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2003 2:11 pm (#587 of 644)
Idea: maybe Harry will fight Voldie and get mortally wounded. Voldie is defeated, Harry is lying there dying. Snape has to save him with the 'stopper death' thing.
Madam Pince - Nov 5, 2003 2:22 pm (#588 of 644)
Very good point, Grant. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right -- a very literal reading of it does sound like preparing a bottle of death, and it goes along better that way with "bottle fame" and "brew glory." Of course, "putting a stopper in death" in that manner doesn't seem like it'd be too difficult; some of my recipes have turned out sorta like that without my even trying! But it would be harder, and more useful also, to make a potion like what schoff describes. Hmmmmm....wonder which it was? Could go either way. I really like the idea of Snape having "saved" Voldy with a death-stoppering potion and then regretting it later, though.
Edit: yeah, Liz, I like that idea too!
timrew - Nov 5, 2003 4:10 pm (#589 of 644)
And if Voldy was denied any more of the Snape potion, it could explain why he was reduced to drinking Unicorn's blood....or Nagini venom....shaken, not stirred, with an olive on a stick, in a dirty glass......
Taylor Buetts - Nov 5, 2003 4:15 pm (#590 of 644)
I don't know if he'll return to Voldemort, but I do know that in an interview with JKR she said that the readers shouldn't get to attached to Snape. Not saying that he'll die or anything, it just means we shouldn't think he's all good. For reference the interview was I believe the Royal Albert Hall or something along those lines.
P.S. i do love Snape! I don't care if he's evil.
Gina R Snape - Nov 5, 2003 8:54 pm (#591 of 644)
Actually, she said it's worth keeping an eye on 'ol Severus, that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him. Not that we shouldn't get too attached to him. Big difference, in my opinion! As such, I think we are going to learn a great deal more about the dastardly deeds he's done as a death eater. But, for me anyway, it'll only make it that much richer to show his redemption.
And Tim, I'm not so sure Voldemort would be fussy about a dirty glass. But maybe he'd prefer a cocktail onion over an olive?
popkin - Nov 6, 2003 2:29 pm (#592 of 644)
A couple of questions for everyone:
1. OotP, US, CH13, p271, Harry had never before considered the possibility that there might be another teacher in the world he hated more than Snape, but as he walked back toward Gryffindor Tower he had to admit he had found a contender. 'She's evil," he thought, as he climbed a staircase to the seventh floor, 'she's an evil, twisted, mad, old--'
Do you think Umbridge was put in (in part) to contrast with Snape so we could see that he is, by comparison, a responsible teacher and a caring individual, OR to throw us off his scent?
2. Do you think that every time Snape gives an essay assignment that JKR is giving us a homework assignment as well? Since the werewolf assignment panned out, do you think that the moonstone assignment will too? Has he given any other homework assignments that we should pursue?
Gina R Snape - Nov 6, 2003 8:11 pm (#593 of 644)
Umbridge was clearly a character who brought things up a notch, as it were, in the sadism department. She did make Snape seem reasonable even for those who do not like him. But I doubt she did it simply to draw the comparison. Maybe for Harry to realise there are gradations of meanness and dislike. I don't know.
As for lessons in the lessons, I don't know about every essay. But in book 2 Snape gives them an assignment on how to detect if something has been poisoned or tampered with, and I'm DEFINITELY waiting for that lesson to come back. JKR dropped it in the conversation so off-handedly that I think it's surely bound to come back.
On a side note, I am bursting with joy but don't know where exactly to post this. But I went to the Love Actually premiere and met Emma Thompson and, yes, pant, I met Alan RIckman today!!!!!!!
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 6, 2003 9:14 pm (#594 of 644)
Gina, when I saw Alan Rickman on the ad for this movie I jumped out of my seat and wanted to run and call you or post to you right away. Congratulations!
Now something related to the thread, when Umbridge was inspecting Snapes class Harry did same something to the effect that he didn't know which which would like to see lose in a battle of the wills Umbridge vs. Snape. (I posted this info somewhere else but can't find it now, sorry)
Gina R Snape - Nov 6, 2003 9:22 pm (#595 of 644)
Thanks, Maritza! Rest assured, I manage to stay abreast one way or another on every upcoming project of Mr. Rickman.
It's actually got me wondering if we should start a thread on the actors. But I don't know if Kip et al. would consider that too "off topic."
And, just to stay on topic, I wonder if Harry will ever again have a teacher he hates more than Severus Snape.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 7, 2003 5:06 am (#596 of 644)
After the the end of the fifth book, I doubt it.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 7, 2003 10:12 pm (#597 of 644)
Allright, when a person asked in an interview if Snape will ever fall in love, JKR said "Who would want Snape in love with them? That would be horrible." Now I was wondering how do you think Snape would act towards the person he loves. Now, I am not one of those people who believes that he will auromaticall become this wonderful person when he falls in love, but I do not think that he will be nasty to the person he loves, if they return his love. I think that he would be abusive if they did not return his love, maybe not on purpose. But, if they did, I think that he would be possesive, perhaps to the point of obbsession. I think that he would also be a litte clingy, but he would be loyal. What do you guys think? I do not know why this interested me, but ever since I read that interview, I have been wondering about that.
Weeny Owl - Nov 8, 2003 12:03 am (#598 of 644)
That's an interesting question, Tpujiko.
Snape in love and Snape in an actual relationship aren't one and the same mainly because until Voldie is defeated, I don't believe Snape would allow himself to become involved with anyone. That doesn't mean he wouldn't feel things, but I don't think he'd act on his feelings unless there was an element of safety for anyone involved.
Assuming he lives through the next Voldie War and has a love interest, I think he'd take as much care with her as he does with brewing potions. I could see him being very attentive and taking great care with details such as anniversaries and birthdays. I would definitely see him as loyal.
I can also see him using his razor-sharp tongue when provoked, and holding grudges on occasion, but I don't see him as being physically abusive.
I'm not totally convinced that he would ever let himself care for someone, though. He doesn't seem the type to open up or share himself in the way a relationship needs.
Anyone who would be attracted to him would need a great deal of patience in breaking through his emotional barriers and tolerating or even appreciating his sarcasm.
I think he'd need a woman who is as strong as he is... anyone too shy or unsure of herself would just be steamrollered by him.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 8, 2003 4:23 am (#599 of 644)
I agree with most of what you said Weeny Owl. Yes, no matter how much he loved someone, he probably would not be with that person for safety reasons. However, I did not mean physical abuse. I can very easily see him being verbaly abusive with someone who did not return his love, intentional or nonintentional, as a way to deal with the pain of unrequited love. I also do not think that Snape is the type of man to actively look for love or anyting like that; however, if he found the right women, I think that it would be really hard for him to keep himself from caring for her. It does seem hard for him to control particularly strong emotions. If he were with someone who was a little shy, I think it would bring out his protective side. If this were the case, I believe he would be a little like Spike, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, when he was with Drusilla.
Gina R Snape - Nov 8, 2003 7:28 am (#600 of 644)
Oh, this is indeed dangerous ground to tread. If we try to stick to canon, and not flights of fancy leading toward fanfiction, I think we might find the following.
First and foremost, Snape would be extremely loyal. I think he would be extremely protective and very worried for the safety of his beloved. I think he would not be prone to public displays of affection. He strikes me as incredibly private. He certainly would take a very long time to get to know someone before becoming romantically involved. I suspect he'd do a great deal of background research on the person, and would need a very long time before he truly felt he could completely trust her. Since he's a spy, and a Slytherin, and Snape is generally paranoid, she'd have to reckon with that triple wammy of suspicion.
In addition, there's evidence that he was abused as a child, which would also engender trust issues. I do agree that his love would have to be patient and intelligent and forgiving and strong. Snape would have to feel like he'd met his match. Maybe even his superior, though he'd be in denial of it. There is a big part of me that suspects Snape thinks he wants to be in charge, but is really more confortable with someone else as leader.
I could see the Snape household being a very unpleasant place when squabbles ensued. But if he loved his partner he'd find a way to get over it. Actually, now that I think on it, she would have to be the one more in charge in the family for him not to ruin or abandon the relationship. I could see him getting very mean and then regretting it, holding terrible grudges and not forgiving, unless she was again that patient, understanding and very strong person who could gently put him back in his place.
What would be extremely tricky is timing. If they were together when he was a DE, then I suspect she'd be a supporter and he couldn't stay with her. If it were after he'd left the DE ranks, she'd have to be exceptionally trustworthy and strong. Ah, maybe Snape will find love in the Order. That would actually be a perfect place for them to meet! I don't see any romantic partner of Snape's being politically neutral or uninvolved. He's in too deep and would need someone he could talk with when the pressure got to be too much. And she'd have to understand and empathise which I don't think you can do if you're out of the loop or not intelligent. Someone McGonagall-like, only closer to his own age I think.
Oh, and I think she'd find our dear Severus very attractive and bewildered by the horrid descriptions of his hooked nose and greasy hair. She would have a different 'take' on his looks and be proud to stand by his side. After all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Snape deserves someone who doesn't think he is a "greasy git."
;coughGinacough:
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Weeny Owl - Nov 8, 2003 9:38 am (#601 of 644)
Tpujiko:
I didn't think you meant physical abuse, but with Snape's reputation being what it is, I just had to throw that out. I don't think anyone would ever think of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows where he's concerned, but he does have some lines he wouldn't cross, and being physically abusive is one of those lines.
I can see how if he cared for someone and couldn't control his feelings he would lash out. Although he does have patience in potion brewing, he does seem to lack it when dealing with people.
He would be protective of someone he loved, and a bit of shyness might bring that out in him. In the initial stages, and with his forceful personality, someone too shy would probably only irritate him. He'd have to see past her shyness.
:coughGinacough:
I love the comparison with McGonagall and someone his own age. She's definitely a strong woman but one who has been shown to have a gentle and compassionate side. I think he'd do well with someone similar.
I also agree that at home she would be the one with the task of keeping the family together through tough times. She would have to gently bully him not to brood.
Ovate - Nov 8, 2003 10:28 am (#602 of 644)
A less complete version of this was posted in the Spouses thread, but I think it sort of fits. The moderator should feel free to delete one or the other of the posts.
(I realize that this post is, hmmm, a creative stretch)
In OotP (Seen and Unforseen), Harry accidently breaks into Snape's memories and sees bits of three of his memories. One of those memories is of a hook-nosed man shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner. How clearly did Harry see this memory? During Harry's first Occlumency lesson, Harry asked Snape if he saw everything that Harry saw when he probed Harry's mind. Snape said that he saw flashes of it. My question is; if Harry only saw a fleeting glimpse of Snape's memory, is it possible that the man, not the boy crying in the corner, was actually Snape? If Snape were the man, rather than the boy, it would probably mean that he's married and that he has a son. What if he has a son and that son is a squib? Wouldn't that make the fame of the son of Jame's Potter, his hated rival, all the more infuriating? Also the near-squib Neville (until recently) would remind him of his putative squib son. That might explain his bullying of Neville. And Hermione is muggle-born and yet the best student at Hogwarts. Unless his attitude toward the muggle-born has changed drastically since he was a student, a muggle-born being Hogwarts' best student while his son (a pureblood?) is a squib would also infuriate him. As far as I can tell, these three are abused to a much greater degree than the other students in his classes.
Fan-fiction? So be it.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 8, 2003 11:43 am (#603 of 644)
I thought that the hooked nose man in the memory could have been Snape; however, I dismissed it. I dismissed it, because if it was Snape, Harry would have known it immediatly. Even if he would only saw a glimpse of the man, it takes less then a second to recognize a person. Also, I think that if Harry even thought the man was Snape for a split second, he would have jumped at another reason to hate Snape. Once again, I could see him with someone who is strong or someone who is very shy, but has a lot of inner strength. If she were strong, it would be a more equal relationship; however, if she were weaker, it would bring out his protective side even more and that might be a reign on him. I think that it could work either way. However, if she were too weak, I also think that he would not respect her, and she would be overwellmed by him.
Ovate - Nov 8, 2003 12:13 pm (#604 of 644)
Tpujiko4444, the man has a hooked nose. That's all we know for sure. Snape has a hooked-nose (of course his father might have had a hooked nose too). But if the memories that Harry saw were just flashes as Snape has said they these kinds of visions are, its possible that Harry didn't see the man well enough to be certain of anything but the man's most prominent feature: a hooked-nose. Yes, if he saw the man clearly, the man could not have been Snape.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 4:39 pm (#605 of 644)
I agree that if it had been Snape, Harry would have recognised him right away. This scene was clearly meant to be a glimpse into Snape's past. All the other scenes were of his past, and so I think that was the overall idea.
Now, does no one else want to discuss the eligibility of Severus as a mate? I am very curious to hear what other people think.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 9, 2003 4:49 pm (#606 of 644)
Yeah, JKR said that it would be horrible if Snape loved someone, why do you think it might be horrible if Snape was in love with a woman. The only thing I could think of, beyond the whole being a spy against Voldemort, would be that he might be obssesive.
Weeny Owl - Nov 9, 2003 4:52 pm (#607 of 644)
I was thinking that during Occlumency all of Harry's memories came in the order they happened. His first ones were when he was small and went right on up until he was kissing Cho.
I think it was Snape's father due to the same reasoning. That's just my opinion, though.
Tpujiko:
JKR may have quite a bit to reveal about Snape that might have a bearing on why she feels it would be horrible. It could be that he would be too obsessive/possessive or it could be something we just have no idea about yet.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 5:39 pm (#608 of 644)
Don't laugh, but I suspect Snape is simply not JKR's "type." She seems bewildered by the idea that anyone likes Snape, Draco, or Slytherin house. At least, it seems that way to me.
Ovate - Nov 9, 2003 7:25 pm (#609 of 644)
I don't see why we should assume that all the memories that Harry saw were of Snape as a boy. Some of Harry's memories Snape saw are from Harry's childhood, others are more recent. For instance, Harry recalls being taken downstairs by Arthur Weasley past the Department of Mysteries on the way to his hearing (Apparently Snape didn't recognize the Department of Mysteries as Harry passed by it or he didn't see it clearly enough to be certain). So why should the memories that Harry sees be any different. They might all be from Snape's childhood but there is no reason to assume that.
During the first lesson, Harry asked Snape if he saw everything that Harry saw when he probed Harry's mind. Snape said, "Flashes of it." We don't know how clearly Harry saw Snape's memories. Certainly, I have on occasion not recognized someone I knew when I'd had only a brief glimpse of them.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 8:11 pm (#610 of 644)
My guess is Harry saw glimpses of Snape's memories. Like, if Harry saw Snape crying as a little boy, perhaps Snape saw himself crying just after his father did something to make him cry. Maybe Snape saw the whole scene of him crying, his father yelling, his mother cowering, and what led up to it. But Harry only caught the last few seconds.
I'm not doubting it's debatable that Snape is the grown man and not the child. But to me that explanation just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the scene.
Weeny Owl - Nov 9, 2003 9:51 pm (#611 of 644)
Gina:
Yes, she does seem bewildered. I must agree with her on Draco, but Snape is getting to be more and more appealing. Unless JKR shows something truly horrid and even Umbridge-esque in the last two books that Snape has done, then I just won't see him as quite the horror she does. That isn't to say that I think he's all sweetness and light... just that his appeal is deeper than what is on the surface.
Ovate:
Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was that it seemed to me that Harry's memories each time Snape did the Legilimens thing were in chronological order, so that when Harry broke into Snape's mind, he was seeing the first memory being from Snape's childhood and then the next from his teenage years.
It's entirely possible that what Harry saw was Snape berating a woman and a child, but Gina's explanation makes the most sense to me. These are Snape's memories, and the memories that come out during Occlumency/Legilimency seem to be ones that are traumatic to the one who experienced them. It just seems more likely that a child would be traumatized by parents arguing than that a husband would be traumatized by being the one arguing.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 9, 2003 10:07 pm (#612 of 644)
Call me prudish, but I agree with Gina, Snape is probably just not JK's type. In addition to possibly being a possessive/obsessive personality to live with, (here's the prudish part), just the thought of contact with someone who has that much grease on his person. His hair is greasy, his face is so greasy that according to MPPW his exam paper was smeared with it. Add to that graying underpants, yuck!
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 10, 2003 12:25 am (#613 of 644)
Yes, JKR does not seem to like the Slytherins in general, as well as Snape.
LadyOfThePensieve [/b]- Nov 10, 2003 4:10 am (#614 of 644)
Hi
Mrs Black,
I disagree in one point with you. Snape´s hair didn´t smear the examination paper, even it was greasy. This is simply NOT possible. There is no canon or proof for such a statement from your side. We only know his nose was directly situated above the paper, not more. Black (I never liked him very much). He just said this because he wanted to embarrass poor Snivellus.
LadyOfThePensieve
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 5:05 am (#615 of 644)
Yes Weeny Owl that's a good point, I noticed that Harry's memories were in chronological order. I'm not saying that Snape is the man, just that he could be.
I'm not sure about the order of Snape's memories, the second is of a teenager and the third of a "scrawny boy". It's possible that Snape is older in the second memory than in the third. Could it be that when the spell is reversed the chronological order of the memories is also reversed?
I'm sorry that I'm being argumentative. The main reason that I think that the man might be Snape is because JKR has made such a mystery of the teachers having spouses. Why? One of the teacher's must have (or have had) a marriage of some importance to the flow of the story. Personally I think that its most likely that a marriage that might have that kind of impact would be either Dumbledore's or Snape's. Otherwise I wouldn't even have brought up Snape's memories.
Gina R Snape - Nov 10, 2003 6:52 am (#616 of 644)
Lady of the Pensieve, your avatar of young Snape studying is breathtaking! How could anyone not want to run up and hug that little guy?
Did you draw that yourself? Am I correct in assuming you are the same Lady of the Pensieve as on several Snape Yahoo groups?
Maritza, I firmly believe that Sirius et al. grossly exaggerate (sp?) the greasiness of our poor Severus. Sirius likes to pick on Snape, and that's just one more way for him to do so.
Weeny Owl - Nov 10, 2003 10:02 am (#617 of 644)
Ovate:
Only JKR knows who is who in that scene, and it could be a reversal of memories, true. I'm sticking with the theory that it was Snape's father mainly because I think it helps explain at least part of why Snape is the way he is.
As for him being one of the married teachers JKR mentioned? I just can't quite see him as married while he's teaching and spying. He'd be much too busy, I think.
Now, as for Snape actually being covered in Crisco? Considering the relationship between Snape and the Marauders, much of what they say about one another I take with a grain of salt.
I would love to see JKR either introducing a new character who was a classmate of theirs or having someone else who wasn't personally involved with them talk about them objectively. We could see what they're like when they're not being adversarial.
While the Marauders in that scene were horrible to Snape, I doubt if he's an innocent victim. I'm sure he can dish out as much as he can take and has on more than one occasion.
Rereading that chapter and hearing what Snape calls Lily, I can see him lashing out at her because it would be horribly embarrassing for a teenage guy to be rescued by a girl. Plus, if what Harry saw during Occlumency lessons is Snape's father berating his mother, Snape might react the same way to a female because that's what he saw while growing up.
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 10:24 am (#618 of 644)
Weeny Owl:
Most likely you're right, but I do think a reversal of chronology might be telling. I've explained elsewhere why I think that Snape might have a son. And I think that many people in the real world take on tasks that leave them little time for their families. Besides I'm not saying he's still married. There must be divorce in the wizarding world.
Weeny Owl - Nov 10, 2003 10:38 am (#619 of 644)
Ovate:
That's a good point about people not having time for families.
I've wondered myself about what the Wizarding World does about marriages gone bad and also about weddings.
Snape could have a child and a former spouse somewhere. He could still be married and have children. I just can't quite see it from what we know about him so far, but JKR has surprised me more than once.
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 10:56 am (#620 of 644)
OK, I believe that the following is the most far out thing that I've posted, which is saying something. (I've posted a less complete version elsewhere).
Let's say that Snape has a son. Let's say that that son is a squib. That might affect his attitude toward the Death Eaters given their views on squibs. Maybe the Death Eaters did something to his son, or maybe his family had to go into hiding. If his son were a squib, that would also probably make him very bitter. Especially given that his arch-rival's son, Harry Potter, is one of the most famous wizards in the world.
Snape seems to be particularly nasty toward Harry, Neville, and Hermione (a little less toward Hermione than the other two, but telling her that he saw no difference when Draco's misfired spell had caused her teeth to grow down to her chin was pretty nasty). Harry is James Potter's famous son. Neville is a near squib, possibly reminding him of his own son. And Hermione, the best student in the school, is muggle-born. Imagine how that would make him feel, the best student in the school a muggle-born and his own son a squib.
I know this is far-fetched, you don't need to tell me so, but I think that if it were true, it could explain a few things.
Kelly Judge - Nov 6, 2003 9:46 pm (#621 of 644)
The vacancy Snape wished to fill...
Just listening to Stephen Fry, OOTP audio and I noticed that when Umbridge is questioning Snape with regards to the DADA position he first applied for that he says that it was fourteen years ago.
If my calculations are correct (and it is possible they're not) this will coincide with the year that Lily and James were murdered, is this a coincidence or is it possible that Lily or James had been the DADA teacher.
If it had been James it might be a reason why Snape wants it so much. To prove that he is just as good as James.
Detail Seeker - Oct 7, 2003 11:48 am (#622 of 644)
Nice idea - and taking into account that Quirrell seemed not too old, when taking over his job, not impossible. But I think, we would have heard that. At least Hagrid would have told (wanted or by accident) Harry - and so us. But as no offspring of an active or former teacher is at school at the moment, we have never heard of the way, this relationship is handeled in Hogwarts.
Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 2:38 pm (#623 of 644)
But it could also explain how the 'Jinxed' theory on the position cam about.
MoaningMyrtle101 - Oct 7, 2003 5:50 pm (#624 of 644)
Edited by Oct 7, 2003 6:53 pm
But an older Hogwarts student like Fred or George Weasley would have been there. Weren't the Weasley twins there when HRH were talking about the job being jinxed? Wouldn't it have come up before? Unless everyone is trying to keep Harry from knowing for some reason. Come to think of it, isn't it weird that we've been looking through Harry's viewpoint for 5 years now and have never yet found out what his parents did for a living or where they were buried when they died? Hagrid was at the house just afterwards, don't you think it's odd that Harry's never asked him before? And that all we know about how Lily and James spent their time was that they were Order members? It's especially strange because there are so many possible sources for that type of information. Hagrid, Dumbledore, the Weasleys, Sirius(before his death), Lupin, and even Aunt Petunia probably know where they were buried, what they did for a living, and a whole bunch of other stuff that's being withheld from us. Yet Harry's never bothered to ask. Strange...
mischa fan - Oct 7, 2003 6:05 pm (#625 of 644)
Kelly, 14 years ago was also the end of VW1, when it would have been safe for Snape, the spy, to come to work for Dumbledore. Also at this point many people where being killed by Voldemort and his DEs, so it is possible that the last DADA teacher could have been killed before Voldemort went after little Harry Potter. Although if James or Lily were the DADA teacher it would explain how Dumbledore came to have James' cloak and key to his vault.
MoaningMyrtle101, you ask some good questions, if you go to the Harry Potter thread and read and post there I am sure you will get your answers.
Romulus - Oct 8, 2003 1:57 pm (#626 of 644)
On the evidence we have, I don't think we can be sure that James or Lily was or wasn't the DADA teacher. However, I think there are a few points against that.
1) They would both have been very young at the time - not an insurmountable barrier, but would the Hogwarts governers have allowed a newbie to teach DADA during Voldemort's reign of terror? 2) It has been hinted that their skills lay in other areas - specifically charms for Lily and transfiguration for James. 3) If either was a Hogwarts teacher, it is more likely they would have been at Hogwarts (specifically the Halloween feast) than at Godric's Hollow as their deaths were in term time.
Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 5:35 pm (#627 of 644)
I agree with that, at least on the point about them not being at school. But then, they might have changed teacher's when Lily and James found it nesecary to go into hiding.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 2:13 pm (#628 of 644)
It's impossibly frustrating that we don't know more about Harry's parents. But I get the sense they weren't buried anywhere. Like, maybe something happened when the house collapsed.
It's an interesting idea that James or Lily waas the DADA teacher. But what I find compelling, and what really bugged me througout the whole book (especially on reread) in OoP is that DD would rather have Dolores Umbridge in the position and Ministry influence in the school than simply give it to Snape, even for just one year. Why? I didn't believe Snape wanted the DADA position until OoP, and the Royal Albert Hall interview. And as much as JKR alludes to Snape's negative potential in the position, I just cannot see it ever being as bad as the Ministry. Except that his actions might be more permenent than the Ministry.
Weeny Owl - Oct 10, 2003 7:15 pm (#629 of 644)
I wondered about that myself, Gina. Snape was certainly infuriated at the questioning he got from Umbridge.
Maybe Dumbledore felt that things had to come to a head before the Ministry would listen to reason. I don't know that I believe he had a confrontation with Voldie in mind, but after what Umbridge did to the students, there might have been quite a bit of flak.
Of course, Dumbledore might been between a rock and a hard place... if he gave Snape the DADA job, he'd have to find another Potions teacher, and he might still have ended up with an Umbridge type.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 9:00 pm (#630 of 644)
Yes, that does seem like a distinct possibility Weeny Owl. Good point. And, I suspect it's easier to find someone to teach DADA than it is to find a decent Potions professor.
Ricky Warner - Oct 14, 2003 3:56 am (#631 of 644)
Yeah. Most people seem to know the basics about Defense, but as Lupin said 'Lucky for me Snape is a skilled potionist'. (Not direct quote). Also, when Hagrid said that Gilderoy was the ONLY person for the job, does that mean Snape couldn't go and do DADA foer some reason?
Gina R Snape - Oct 14, 2003 5:06 pm (#632 of 644)
Well, yes Ricky. He couldn't do DADA because Dumbledore wouldn't allow it. in OoP it comes out that poor Snape did apply every year. That would have to include the year with Lockhart.
popkin - Oct 16, 2003 9:55 am (#633 of 644)
In fact, Dumbledore is so opposed to Snape filling the position of DADA, that he prefered Umbridge. That's saying something!
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 10:47 am (#634 of 644)
I don't think he prefered Umbridge. If he gave Snape the DADA position, there then would have been the matter of finding a new potions teacher, which may or may not have been as difficult to fill, but all the same, it would be there. Besides, I doubt he knew she would turn out to be such a nightmare.
I think it all boils down to whatever the reason is that Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position. I couldn't even fathom a guess at what that reason is, though.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 4:28 pm (#635 of 644)
JKR has said in the Royal Albert Hall interview that Dumbledore does not give Snape the DADA position because he fears it will bring out the worst in him.
The question is, is the worst in Snape worse than the worst in Umbridge? And, as you point out virgoddess1313, did Dumbledore know what was the potential worst in Umbridge as a basis for decision-making? I guess we'll never know. But I do believe he would have strongly preferred not to have the Ministry inside the walls of Hogwarts at that (or any) time. So, whatever his plan was, we don't know if it worked or backfired by allowing Umbridge to come in.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 12:09 pm (#636 of 644)
The kids certainly learned that just because a law is made it doesn't mean that it was needed or even desirable. They also learned that just because someone holds a position of trust (teacher, ministry official), doesn't mean that you can trust them. And, they learned that toad-like women with tightly curled hair and repulsively cute kitten plates definitely should not be given an inch.
timrew - Oct 23, 2003 1:49 pm (#637 of 644)
Let's face it. With Umbridge as DADA teacher, the kids learned precisely nothing all year. If it wasn't for Harry (with encouragement from Ron and Hermione), starting the DA, a whole year would have been wasted.
I think DD slipped up here, by letting Umbridge become DADA teacher - unless he had no choice.
There again, if he had appointed Snape, we would never have met the deliciously nasty Dolores - unless, of course, she became the Potions Teacher.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 2:24 pm (#638 of 644)
Edited by Oct 23, 2003 3:28 pm
They learned that Harry's a good teacher. They learned that, given the freedom to do so (and, for a while even without freedom), they can learn an awful lot of DADA on their own. And look at Neville - he gained a lot of confidence in Harry's class. If it hadn't been for Umbridge, the kids would never have struck out on their own and found out what they could do if they banded together for a noble cause.
It's not how you or I would run a school (assigning Umbridge to the DADA position), but our schools would be boring by comparison, wouldn't they?
I wonder if any of the students who were not in Dumbledore's Army got together and bridged the gap in their DADA classes. I can see the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws huddled around some hefty DADA books in their common rooms. And I can see the Slytherins getting into straight dark arts - not defense.
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 2:41 pm (#639 of 644)
Yes, some of Harry's extended circle learned from him, and learned to question the law and question authority. But what about the entire rest of the school?
No, I suspect that had Snape been made DADA professor, Umbridge would've filled the Potions position. The MoM must've been steadfast determined to get someone inside the school walls. As such, with a choice of the best of two bad situations, DD decided to keep Snape where he was. It's the only explanation I can find.
Viola Intonada - Oct 23, 2003 5:48 pm (#640 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 6:51 pm
I was reading some of the other threads when a thought occurred to me. What if Dumbledore dies in the end of book 6, and what if the new headmaster appointed Snape as the DADA teacher. What kind of teacher would Snape be? I have always envisioned that one of the reasons Dumbledore refuses to assign Snape to the position is that it would be similar to hiring an alcoholic as a bar tender. Would Snape go over to the other side (towards Voldemort)? What if it has been a life-debt that has kept Dumbledore so sure of Snape's loyalties?
Tonal OfTimes - Oct 23, 2003 7:49 pm (#641 of 644)
I think Snape will be the next DADA teacher in Book 6. I think that because is the only way I can imagine that Harry can have a hope to be an Auror. Harry will never get a NEWT Potions class unless Severus teaches DADA and another Teacher (perhaps someone new or someone known that have less expectation in the students and accepts students with just standard grades in hisNEWT class) gets The Potions Class. Of course if Severus is still the Potions Master in Book 6 well, Harry will have to forget about the three years of Auror training.
Emily - Oct 24, 2003 9:30 am (#642 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 10:31 am
Unless McGonagall helps him, like she said she would, Tonal OfTimes. She might insinuate Harry int the NEWT class to keep from giving up even more of her evenings. Or she might just be stuck teaching him advanced potions. I do think, however, that when Proffessor McGonagall says something like that, itshould not be taken lightly.
Choices - Nov 5, 2003 4:49 pm (#643 of 644)
I was under the impression that Dumbledore had no choice in letting Umbridge into Hogwarts. She was sent by the MOM and acting under their authority. I believe Snape, after hearing his "welcoming speech" to the first years in his Potions class, would not be good at teaching the DADA class - he might teach the kids more of the Dark Arts instead of Defence Against the Dark Arts. His speech made him seem very sinister and power hungry.
Michele A - Nov 6, 2003 6:03 pm (#644 of 644)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 6, 2003 9:46 pm
Edit: Michelle, I edited a word out of your post that has no place on the forum, masked or otherwise, in the context it was. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me - Denise P (NoVeil4Me@aol.com)
I agree with you, Choices. I thought that Dumbledore had no choice in the matter. My thoughts were this:
Umbridge comes in as DADA teacher. Why? The MOM is trying to keep the students quiet about what happend the previous year. They don't want students, parents and teachers all in a trifle about Voldermort. MOM sends Umbridge because she rules with an Iron (or silver!) Fist. Shes a hard woman. She doesn't let the students practice Defense, she just lets them read up on it. She stands out Harry alot, like making him an example to the other students. Umbridge knew that Snape tried year after year to get the DADA, and that Dumbledore had refused him. The MOM also knows that Dumbleydorr agrees with Harry, so the MOM is trying to discredit them both. Fudge has been trying for a bit now. Thats why Dumbledore is booted out as Headmaster. Once Fudge realized at the end of book 5 that Voldermort was back, he restores Dumbledore as Headmaster. Its like getting hit in the face with a big pie. "I told you so!!" is what Harry should be thinking.
Thoes are my thoughts as I read and re-read the book.
Tpujiko:
I didn't think you meant physical abuse, but with Snape's reputation being what it is, I just had to throw that out. I don't think anyone would ever think of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows where he's concerned, but he does have some lines he wouldn't cross, and being physically abusive is one of those lines.
I can see how if he cared for someone and couldn't control his feelings he would lash out. Although he does have patience in potion brewing, he does seem to lack it when dealing with people.
He would be protective of someone he loved, and a bit of shyness might bring that out in him. In the initial stages, and with his forceful personality, someone too shy would probably only irritate him. He'd have to see past her shyness.
:coughGinacough:
I love the comparison with McGonagall and someone his own age. She's definitely a strong woman but one who has been shown to have a gentle and compassionate side. I think he'd do well with someone similar.
I also agree that at home she would be the one with the task of keeping the family together through tough times. She would have to gently bully him not to brood.
Ovate - Nov 8, 2003 10:28 am (#602 of 644)
A less complete version of this was posted in the Spouses thread, but I think it sort of fits. The moderator should feel free to delete one or the other of the posts.
(I realize that this post is, hmmm, a creative stretch)
In OotP (Seen and Unforseen), Harry accidently breaks into Snape's memories and sees bits of three of his memories. One of those memories is of a hook-nosed man shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner. How clearly did Harry see this memory? During Harry's first Occlumency lesson, Harry asked Snape if he saw everything that Harry saw when he probed Harry's mind. Snape said that he saw flashes of it. My question is; if Harry only saw a fleeting glimpse of Snape's memory, is it possible that the man, not the boy crying in the corner, was actually Snape? If Snape were the man, rather than the boy, it would probably mean that he's married and that he has a son. What if he has a son and that son is a squib? Wouldn't that make the fame of the son of Jame's Potter, his hated rival, all the more infuriating? Also the near-squib Neville (until recently) would remind him of his putative squib son. That might explain his bullying of Neville. And Hermione is muggle-born and yet the best student at Hogwarts. Unless his attitude toward the muggle-born has changed drastically since he was a student, a muggle-born being Hogwarts' best student while his son (a pureblood?) is a squib would also infuriate him. As far as I can tell, these three are abused to a much greater degree than the other students in his classes.
Fan-fiction? So be it.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 8, 2003 11:43 am (#603 of 644)
I thought that the hooked nose man in the memory could have been Snape; however, I dismissed it. I dismissed it, because if it was Snape, Harry would have known it immediatly. Even if he would only saw a glimpse of the man, it takes less then a second to recognize a person. Also, I think that if Harry even thought the man was Snape for a split second, he would have jumped at another reason to hate Snape. Once again, I could see him with someone who is strong or someone who is very shy, but has a lot of inner strength. If she were strong, it would be a more equal relationship; however, if she were weaker, it would bring out his protective side even more and that might be a reign on him. I think that it could work either way. However, if she were too weak, I also think that he would not respect her, and she would be overwellmed by him.
Ovate - Nov 8, 2003 12:13 pm (#604 of 644)
Tpujiko4444, the man has a hooked nose. That's all we know for sure. Snape has a hooked-nose (of course his father might have had a hooked nose too). But if the memories that Harry saw were just flashes as Snape has said they these kinds of visions are, its possible that Harry didn't see the man well enough to be certain of anything but the man's most prominent feature: a hooked-nose. Yes, if he saw the man clearly, the man could not have been Snape.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 4:39 pm (#605 of 644)
I agree that if it had been Snape, Harry would have recognised him right away. This scene was clearly meant to be a glimpse into Snape's past. All the other scenes were of his past, and so I think that was the overall idea.
Now, does no one else want to discuss the eligibility of Severus as a mate? I am very curious to hear what other people think.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 9, 2003 4:49 pm (#606 of 644)
Yeah, JKR said that it would be horrible if Snape loved someone, why do you think it might be horrible if Snape was in love with a woman. The only thing I could think of, beyond the whole being a spy against Voldemort, would be that he might be obssesive.
Weeny Owl - Nov 9, 2003 4:52 pm (#607 of 644)
I was thinking that during Occlumency all of Harry's memories came in the order they happened. His first ones were when he was small and went right on up until he was kissing Cho.
I think it was Snape's father due to the same reasoning. That's just my opinion, though.
Tpujiko:
JKR may have quite a bit to reveal about Snape that might have a bearing on why she feels it would be horrible. It could be that he would be too obsessive/possessive or it could be something we just have no idea about yet.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 5:39 pm (#608 of 644)
Don't laugh, but I suspect Snape is simply not JKR's "type." She seems bewildered by the idea that anyone likes Snape, Draco, or Slytherin house. At least, it seems that way to me.
Ovate - Nov 9, 2003 7:25 pm (#609 of 644)
I don't see why we should assume that all the memories that Harry saw were of Snape as a boy. Some of Harry's memories Snape saw are from Harry's childhood, others are more recent. For instance, Harry recalls being taken downstairs by Arthur Weasley past the Department of Mysteries on the way to his hearing (Apparently Snape didn't recognize the Department of Mysteries as Harry passed by it or he didn't see it clearly enough to be certain). So why should the memories that Harry sees be any different. They might all be from Snape's childhood but there is no reason to assume that.
During the first lesson, Harry asked Snape if he saw everything that Harry saw when he probed Harry's mind. Snape said, "Flashes of it." We don't know how clearly Harry saw Snape's memories. Certainly, I have on occasion not recognized someone I knew when I'd had only a brief glimpse of them.
Gina R Snape - Nov 9, 2003 8:11 pm (#610 of 644)
My guess is Harry saw glimpses of Snape's memories. Like, if Harry saw Snape crying as a little boy, perhaps Snape saw himself crying just after his father did something to make him cry. Maybe Snape saw the whole scene of him crying, his father yelling, his mother cowering, and what led up to it. But Harry only caught the last few seconds.
I'm not doubting it's debatable that Snape is the grown man and not the child. But to me that explanation just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the scene.
Weeny Owl - Nov 9, 2003 9:51 pm (#611 of 644)
Gina:
Yes, she does seem bewildered. I must agree with her on Draco, but Snape is getting to be more and more appealing. Unless JKR shows something truly horrid and even Umbridge-esque in the last two books that Snape has done, then I just won't see him as quite the horror she does. That isn't to say that I think he's all sweetness and light... just that his appeal is deeper than what is on the surface.
Ovate:
Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was that it seemed to me that Harry's memories each time Snape did the Legilimens thing were in chronological order, so that when Harry broke into Snape's mind, he was seeing the first memory being from Snape's childhood and then the next from his teenage years.
It's entirely possible that what Harry saw was Snape berating a woman and a child, but Gina's explanation makes the most sense to me. These are Snape's memories, and the memories that come out during Occlumency/Legilimency seem to be ones that are traumatic to the one who experienced them. It just seems more likely that a child would be traumatized by parents arguing than that a husband would be traumatized by being the one arguing.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 9, 2003 10:07 pm (#612 of 644)
Call me prudish, but I agree with Gina, Snape is probably just not JK's type. In addition to possibly being a possessive/obsessive personality to live with, (here's the prudish part), just the thought of contact with someone who has that much grease on his person. His hair is greasy, his face is so greasy that according to MPPW his exam paper was smeared with it. Add to that graying underpants, yuck!
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 10, 2003 12:25 am (#613 of 644)
Yes, JKR does not seem to like the Slytherins in general, as well as Snape.
LadyOfThePensieve [/b]- Nov 10, 2003 4:10 am (#614 of 644)
Hi
Mrs Black,
I disagree in one point with you. Snape´s hair didn´t smear the examination paper, even it was greasy. This is simply NOT possible. There is no canon or proof for such a statement from your side. We only know his nose was directly situated above the paper, not more. Black (I never liked him very much). He just said this because he wanted to embarrass poor Snivellus.
LadyOfThePensieve
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 5:05 am (#615 of 644)
Yes Weeny Owl that's a good point, I noticed that Harry's memories were in chronological order. I'm not saying that Snape is the man, just that he could be.
I'm not sure about the order of Snape's memories, the second is of a teenager and the third of a "scrawny boy". It's possible that Snape is older in the second memory than in the third. Could it be that when the spell is reversed the chronological order of the memories is also reversed?
I'm sorry that I'm being argumentative. The main reason that I think that the man might be Snape is because JKR has made such a mystery of the teachers having spouses. Why? One of the teacher's must have (or have had) a marriage of some importance to the flow of the story. Personally I think that its most likely that a marriage that might have that kind of impact would be either Dumbledore's or Snape's. Otherwise I wouldn't even have brought up Snape's memories.
Gina R Snape - Nov 10, 2003 6:52 am (#616 of 644)
Lady of the Pensieve, your avatar of young Snape studying is breathtaking! How could anyone not want to run up and hug that little guy?
Did you draw that yourself? Am I correct in assuming you are the same Lady of the Pensieve as on several Snape Yahoo groups?
Maritza, I firmly believe that Sirius et al. grossly exaggerate (sp?) the greasiness of our poor Severus. Sirius likes to pick on Snape, and that's just one more way for him to do so.
Weeny Owl - Nov 10, 2003 10:02 am (#617 of 644)
Ovate:
Only JKR knows who is who in that scene, and it could be a reversal of memories, true. I'm sticking with the theory that it was Snape's father mainly because I think it helps explain at least part of why Snape is the way he is.
As for him being one of the married teachers JKR mentioned? I just can't quite see him as married while he's teaching and spying. He'd be much too busy, I think.
Now, as for Snape actually being covered in Crisco? Considering the relationship between Snape and the Marauders, much of what they say about one another I take with a grain of salt.
I would love to see JKR either introducing a new character who was a classmate of theirs or having someone else who wasn't personally involved with them talk about them objectively. We could see what they're like when they're not being adversarial.
While the Marauders in that scene were horrible to Snape, I doubt if he's an innocent victim. I'm sure he can dish out as much as he can take and has on more than one occasion.
Rereading that chapter and hearing what Snape calls Lily, I can see him lashing out at her because it would be horribly embarrassing for a teenage guy to be rescued by a girl. Plus, if what Harry saw during Occlumency lessons is Snape's father berating his mother, Snape might react the same way to a female because that's what he saw while growing up.
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 10:24 am (#618 of 644)
Weeny Owl:
Most likely you're right, but I do think a reversal of chronology might be telling. I've explained elsewhere why I think that Snape might have a son. And I think that many people in the real world take on tasks that leave them little time for their families. Besides I'm not saying he's still married. There must be divorce in the wizarding world.
Weeny Owl - Nov 10, 2003 10:38 am (#619 of 644)
Ovate:
That's a good point about people not having time for families.
I've wondered myself about what the Wizarding World does about marriages gone bad and also about weddings.
Snape could have a child and a former spouse somewhere. He could still be married and have children. I just can't quite see it from what we know about him so far, but JKR has surprised me more than once.
Ovate - Nov 10, 2003 10:56 am (#620 of 644)
OK, I believe that the following is the most far out thing that I've posted, which is saying something. (I've posted a less complete version elsewhere).
Let's say that Snape has a son. Let's say that that son is a squib. That might affect his attitude toward the Death Eaters given their views on squibs. Maybe the Death Eaters did something to his son, or maybe his family had to go into hiding. If his son were a squib, that would also probably make him very bitter. Especially given that his arch-rival's son, Harry Potter, is one of the most famous wizards in the world.
Snape seems to be particularly nasty toward Harry, Neville, and Hermione (a little less toward Hermione than the other two, but telling her that he saw no difference when Draco's misfired spell had caused her teeth to grow down to her chin was pretty nasty). Harry is James Potter's famous son. Neville is a near squib, possibly reminding him of his own son. And Hermione, the best student in the school, is muggle-born. Imagine how that would make him feel, the best student in the school a muggle-born and his own son a squib.
I know this is far-fetched, you don't need to tell me so, but I think that if it were true, it could explain a few things.
Kelly Judge - Nov 6, 2003 9:46 pm (#621 of 644)
The vacancy Snape wished to fill...
Just listening to Stephen Fry, OOTP audio and I noticed that when Umbridge is questioning Snape with regards to the DADA position he first applied for that he says that it was fourteen years ago.
If my calculations are correct (and it is possible they're not) this will coincide with the year that Lily and James were murdered, is this a coincidence or is it possible that Lily or James had been the DADA teacher.
If it had been James it might be a reason why Snape wants it so much. To prove that he is just as good as James.
Detail Seeker - Oct 7, 2003 11:48 am (#622 of 644)
Nice idea - and taking into account that Quirrell seemed not too old, when taking over his job, not impossible. But I think, we would have heard that. At least Hagrid would have told (wanted or by accident) Harry - and so us. But as no offspring of an active or former teacher is at school at the moment, we have never heard of the way, this relationship is handeled in Hogwarts.
Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 2:38 pm (#623 of 644)
But it could also explain how the 'Jinxed' theory on the position cam about.
MoaningMyrtle101 - Oct 7, 2003 5:50 pm (#624 of 644)
Edited by Oct 7, 2003 6:53 pm
But an older Hogwarts student like Fred or George Weasley would have been there. Weren't the Weasley twins there when HRH were talking about the job being jinxed? Wouldn't it have come up before? Unless everyone is trying to keep Harry from knowing for some reason. Come to think of it, isn't it weird that we've been looking through Harry's viewpoint for 5 years now and have never yet found out what his parents did for a living or where they were buried when they died? Hagrid was at the house just afterwards, don't you think it's odd that Harry's never asked him before? And that all we know about how Lily and James spent their time was that they were Order members? It's especially strange because there are so many possible sources for that type of information. Hagrid, Dumbledore, the Weasleys, Sirius(before his death), Lupin, and even Aunt Petunia probably know where they were buried, what they did for a living, and a whole bunch of other stuff that's being withheld from us. Yet Harry's never bothered to ask. Strange...
mischa fan - Oct 7, 2003 6:05 pm (#625 of 644)
Kelly, 14 years ago was also the end of VW1, when it would have been safe for Snape, the spy, to come to work for Dumbledore. Also at this point many people where being killed by Voldemort and his DEs, so it is possible that the last DADA teacher could have been killed before Voldemort went after little Harry Potter. Although if James or Lily were the DADA teacher it would explain how Dumbledore came to have James' cloak and key to his vault.
MoaningMyrtle101, you ask some good questions, if you go to the Harry Potter thread and read and post there I am sure you will get your answers.
Romulus - Oct 8, 2003 1:57 pm (#626 of 644)
On the evidence we have, I don't think we can be sure that James or Lily was or wasn't the DADA teacher. However, I think there are a few points against that.
1) They would both have been very young at the time - not an insurmountable barrier, but would the Hogwarts governers have allowed a newbie to teach DADA during Voldemort's reign of terror? 2) It has been hinted that their skills lay in other areas - specifically charms for Lily and transfiguration for James. 3) If either was a Hogwarts teacher, it is more likely they would have been at Hogwarts (specifically the Halloween feast) than at Godric's Hollow as their deaths were in term time.
Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 5:35 pm (#627 of 644)
I agree with that, at least on the point about them not being at school. But then, they might have changed teacher's when Lily and James found it nesecary to go into hiding.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 2:13 pm (#628 of 644)
It's impossibly frustrating that we don't know more about Harry's parents. But I get the sense they weren't buried anywhere. Like, maybe something happened when the house collapsed.
It's an interesting idea that James or Lily waas the DADA teacher. But what I find compelling, and what really bugged me througout the whole book (especially on reread) in OoP is that DD would rather have Dolores Umbridge in the position and Ministry influence in the school than simply give it to Snape, even for just one year. Why? I didn't believe Snape wanted the DADA position until OoP, and the Royal Albert Hall interview. And as much as JKR alludes to Snape's negative potential in the position, I just cannot see it ever being as bad as the Ministry. Except that his actions might be more permenent than the Ministry.
Weeny Owl - Oct 10, 2003 7:15 pm (#629 of 644)
I wondered about that myself, Gina. Snape was certainly infuriated at the questioning he got from Umbridge.
Maybe Dumbledore felt that things had to come to a head before the Ministry would listen to reason. I don't know that I believe he had a confrontation with Voldie in mind, but after what Umbridge did to the students, there might have been quite a bit of flak.
Of course, Dumbledore might been between a rock and a hard place... if he gave Snape the DADA job, he'd have to find another Potions teacher, and he might still have ended up with an Umbridge type.
Gina R Snape - Oct 10, 2003 9:00 pm (#630 of 644)
Yes, that does seem like a distinct possibility Weeny Owl. Good point. And, I suspect it's easier to find someone to teach DADA than it is to find a decent Potions professor.
Ricky Warner - Oct 14, 2003 3:56 am (#631 of 644)
Yeah. Most people seem to know the basics about Defense, but as Lupin said 'Lucky for me Snape is a skilled potionist'. (Not direct quote). Also, when Hagrid said that Gilderoy was the ONLY person for the job, does that mean Snape couldn't go and do DADA foer some reason?
Gina R Snape - Oct 14, 2003 5:06 pm (#632 of 644)
Well, yes Ricky. He couldn't do DADA because Dumbledore wouldn't allow it. in OoP it comes out that poor Snape did apply every year. That would have to include the year with Lockhart.
popkin - Oct 16, 2003 9:55 am (#633 of 644)
In fact, Dumbledore is so opposed to Snape filling the position of DADA, that he prefered Umbridge. That's saying something!
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 10:47 am (#634 of 644)
I don't think he prefered Umbridge. If he gave Snape the DADA position, there then would have been the matter of finding a new potions teacher, which may or may not have been as difficult to fill, but all the same, it would be there. Besides, I doubt he knew she would turn out to be such a nightmare.
I think it all boils down to whatever the reason is that Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position. I couldn't even fathom a guess at what that reason is, though.
Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 4:28 pm (#635 of 644)
JKR has said in the Royal Albert Hall interview that Dumbledore does not give Snape the DADA position because he fears it will bring out the worst in him.
The question is, is the worst in Snape worse than the worst in Umbridge? And, as you point out virgoddess1313, did Dumbledore know what was the potential worst in Umbridge as a basis for decision-making? I guess we'll never know. But I do believe he would have strongly preferred not to have the Ministry inside the walls of Hogwarts at that (or any) time. So, whatever his plan was, we don't know if it worked or backfired by allowing Umbridge to come in.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 12:09 pm (#636 of 644)
The kids certainly learned that just because a law is made it doesn't mean that it was needed or even desirable. They also learned that just because someone holds a position of trust (teacher, ministry official), doesn't mean that you can trust them. And, they learned that toad-like women with tightly curled hair and repulsively cute kitten plates definitely should not be given an inch.
timrew - Oct 23, 2003 1:49 pm (#637 of 644)
Let's face it. With Umbridge as DADA teacher, the kids learned precisely nothing all year. If it wasn't for Harry (with encouragement from Ron and Hermione), starting the DA, a whole year would have been wasted.
I think DD slipped up here, by letting Umbridge become DADA teacher - unless he had no choice.
There again, if he had appointed Snape, we would never have met the deliciously nasty Dolores - unless, of course, she became the Potions Teacher.
popkin - Oct 23, 2003 2:24 pm (#638 of 644)
Edited by Oct 23, 2003 3:28 pm
They learned that Harry's a good teacher. They learned that, given the freedom to do so (and, for a while even without freedom), they can learn an awful lot of DADA on their own. And look at Neville - he gained a lot of confidence in Harry's class. If it hadn't been for Umbridge, the kids would never have struck out on their own and found out what they could do if they banded together for a noble cause.
It's not how you or I would run a school (assigning Umbridge to the DADA position), but our schools would be boring by comparison, wouldn't they?
I wonder if any of the students who were not in Dumbledore's Army got together and bridged the gap in their DADA classes. I can see the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws huddled around some hefty DADA books in their common rooms. And I can see the Slytherins getting into straight dark arts - not defense.
Gina R Snape - Oct 23, 2003 2:41 pm (#639 of 644)
Yes, some of Harry's extended circle learned from him, and learned to question the law and question authority. But what about the entire rest of the school?
No, I suspect that had Snape been made DADA professor, Umbridge would've filled the Potions position. The MoM must've been steadfast determined to get someone inside the school walls. As such, with a choice of the best of two bad situations, DD decided to keep Snape where he was. It's the only explanation I can find.
Viola Intonada - Oct 23, 2003 5:48 pm (#640 of 644)
Edited Oct 23, 2003 6:51 pm
I was reading some of the other threads when a thought occurred to me. What if Dumbledore dies in the end of book 6, and what if the new headmaster appointed Snape as the DADA teacher. What kind of teacher would Snape be? I have always envisioned that one of the reasons Dumbledore refuses to assign Snape to the position is that it would be similar to hiring an alcoholic as a bar tender. Would Snape go over to the other side (towards Voldemort)? What if it has been a life-debt that has kept Dumbledore so sure of Snape's loyalties?
Tonal OfTimes - Oct 23, 2003 7:49 pm (#641 of 644)
I think Snape will be the next DADA teacher in Book 6. I think that because is the only way I can imagine that Harry can have a hope to be an Auror. Harry will never get a NEWT Potions class unless Severus teaches DADA and another Teacher (perhaps someone new or someone known that have less expectation in the students and accepts students with just standard grades in hisNEWT class) gets The Potions Class. Of course if Severus is still the Potions Master in Book 6 well, Harry will have to forget about the three years of Auror training.
Emily - Oct 24, 2003 9:30 am (#642 of 644)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 10:31 am
Unless McGonagall helps him, like she said she would, Tonal OfTimes. She might insinuate Harry int the NEWT class to keep from giving up even more of her evenings. Or she might just be stuck teaching him advanced potions. I do think, however, that when Proffessor McGonagall says something like that, itshould not be taken lightly.
Choices - Nov 5, 2003 4:49 pm (#643 of 644)
I was under the impression that Dumbledore had no choice in letting Umbridge into Hogwarts. She was sent by the MOM and acting under their authority. I believe Snape, after hearing his "welcoming speech" to the first years in his Potions class, would not be good at teaching the DADA class - he might teach the kids more of the Dark Arts instead of Defence Against the Dark Arts. His speech made him seem very sinister and power hungry.
Michele A - Nov 6, 2003 6:03 pm (#644 of 644)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 6, 2003 9:46 pm
Edit: Michelle, I edited a word out of your post that has no place on the forum, masked or otherwise, in the context it was. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me - Denise P (NoVeil4Me@aol.com)
I agree with you, Choices. I thought that Dumbledore had no choice in the matter. My thoughts were this:
Umbridge comes in as DADA teacher. Why? The MOM is trying to keep the students quiet about what happend the previous year. They don't want students, parents and teachers all in a trifle about Voldermort. MOM sends Umbridge because she rules with an Iron (or silver!) Fist. Shes a hard woman. She doesn't let the students practice Defense, she just lets them read up on it. She stands out Harry alot, like making him an example to the other students. Umbridge knew that Snape tried year after year to get the DADA, and that Dumbledore had refused him. The MOM also knows that Dumbleydorr agrees with Harry, so the MOM is trying to discredit them both. Fudge has been trying for a bit now. Thats why Dumbledore is booted out as Headmaster. Once Fudge realized at the end of book 5 that Voldermort was back, he restores Dumbledore as Headmaster. Its like getting hit in the face with a big pie. "I told you so!!" is what Harry should be thinking.
Thoes are my thoughts as I read and re-read the book.
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Last edited by Mona on Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Severus Snape, Volume 2 (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004)
Mona Sat May 21, 2011 11:09 am
Kip Carter - Nov 11, 2003 1:19 am
Edited Aug 30, 2007 5:53 am
I changed the title of this thread from Severus Snape to Severus Snape (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004) and moved the new Saved thread to the bottom of this folder. The new thread Severus Snape is the continuation of this thread. - Kip 22 Oct 04
I changed the title of this thread from Severus Snape #2 to Severus Snape and changed the title of the linked thread from Severus Snape #1 to Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) when I moved the linked thread to the Archived folder. - Kip
Severus Snape is one of the most controversial characters in the Harry Potter series and because of this, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate. The first thread Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) accumulated 644 messages in the 74 days since we returned to the World Crossing (WX) system.
The original thread had 620 messages on November 10, 2003 with the last message that day being Post #620 by Ovate. In an effort to consolidate some similiar messages on another thread, The vacancy Snape wished to fill... was moved to the end of the original thread and the 24 messages of that thread start at Post #621 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.
The creation of this new thread allows those who care to look back and continue what wwas being discussed in a logical way without having to manuever around the 24 added messages. This will also allow for those interested in the moved 24 messages to now logical enter their thoughts into the new conversation.
Some of you may find this tedious and some of you, I hope, will find this a good working solution to the original huge thread. Regardless of how each of you handle this new thread depends on our working together. The nature of a forum is that new people come in and are faced with this huge number of messages to read and are somewhat intimidated by the amount that is needed to read before they can add their thoughts and ideas. This has caused many messages to start to rehash issues that some feel have already been discussed and problems occur. I hope my closing out the original huge thread and providing the links in this new thread will allow a new peaceful discussion of Severus Snape to continue with new life and no preconceived ideas of what needs to be discussed.
The first message to this new thread will set the tone of the thread for future posters. Let try to make this work.
For those who care about the original thread with its added messages, I have changed its status to permanent (for how long it remains in that status depends on how this thread progresses) and have placed it at the bottom of this folder for those who want to read those the various posts.
VOLUME 2 INDEX
Edited Aug 30, 2007 5:53 am
I changed the title of this thread from Severus Snape to Severus Snape (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004) and moved the new Saved thread to the bottom of this folder. The new thread Severus Snape is the continuation of this thread. - Kip 22 Oct 04
I changed the title of this thread from Severus Snape #2 to Severus Snape and changed the title of the linked thread from Severus Snape #1 to Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) when I moved the linked thread to the Archived folder. - Kip
Severus Snape is one of the most controversial characters in the Harry Potter series and because of this, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate. The first thread Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) accumulated 644 messages in the 74 days since we returned to the World Crossing (WX) system.
The original thread had 620 messages on November 10, 2003 with the last message that day being Post #620 by Ovate. In an effort to consolidate some similiar messages on another thread, The vacancy Snape wished to fill... was moved to the end of the original thread and the 24 messages of that thread start at Post #621 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.
The creation of this new thread allows those who care to look back and continue what wwas being discussed in a logical way without having to manuever around the 24 added messages. This will also allow for those interested in the moved 24 messages to now logical enter their thoughts into the new conversation.
Some of you may find this tedious and some of you, I hope, will find this a good working solution to the original huge thread. Regardless of how each of you handle this new thread depends on our working together. The nature of a forum is that new people come in and are faced with this huge number of messages to read and are somewhat intimidated by the amount that is needed to read before they can add their thoughts and ideas. This has caused many messages to start to rehash issues that some feel have already been discussed and problems occur. I hope my closing out the original huge thread and providing the links in this new thread will allow a new peaceful discussion of Severus Snape to continue with new life and no preconceived ideas of what needs to be discussed.
The first message to this new thread will set the tone of the thread for future posters. Let try to make this work.
For those who care about the original thread with its added messages, I have changed its status to permanent (for how long it remains in that status depends on how this thread progresses) and have placed it at the bottom of this folder for those who want to read those the various posts.
VOLUME 2 INDEX
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Last edited by Mona on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:29 pm; edited 13 times in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Posts 1 to 50
Mona Sat May 21, 2011 11:47 am
Gina R Snape - Nov 11, 2003 8:44 am (#1 of 2956)
Well, ok. I was hoping to get to be poster #666 on the Snape thread. But, oh well. I can be first here!
So, this is a topic I was debating with a friend the other day I can't remember being here. Who thinks Snape told Malfoy to use Serpensortia in the dueling scene in CoS to see if Harry was a parselmouth? In the book, he whispers and grins in Malfoy's ear. And, we can suspect the paintings reported to Dumbledore when they overheard Harry saying to Ron and Hermione that he was hearing voices.
Anyone?
S.E. Jones - Nov 11, 2003 10:42 am (#2 of 2956)
Hm, interesting. I thought, though, that Snape was surprised and upset when Harry spoke to the snake. Isn't there a description of him making some sort of face? 'Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: It was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it.' (CoS11) I definately think Snape told Malfoy to use that spell, though. I think he wanted to scare the pride of Gryffindor with a little snake (the symbol of Slytherin house)...
mollis - Nov 11, 2003 3:50 pm (#3 of 2956)
Yes, it would make sense for Snape to have Draco use a snake. It is both the symbol of Slytherin and most people are afraid of snakes. I don't see why Snape would have a reason to suspect Harry of being a parselmouth, though. Even if the portraits told DD (good thought, by the way!) he was hearing voices, why would they think he was parseltounge? It seems to me Snape would prefer to think of Harry insane rather than having an ability that would likely be prized in the Slytherin house.
Mad Goose - Nov 11, 2003 6:17 pm (#4 of 2956)
True, I imagine that Malfoy did not like Slytherin having anything in common with Potter.
I also think, and this was discussed on the thread about Snape and occlumency and legilimency, that Snape was reading Harry's thoughts.
Romana - Nov 12, 2003 6:15 am (#5 of 2956)
Possibly Snape whispered this spell into Draco's ear out of malice for Potter, possibly he wanted to see Potter scared or something. The shrewd look may mean many things, my favourite being that the only other person Snape had heard talking like that was Voldemort, and he was surprised (Alan Rickman looked puzzled in the film.)
On a slighly separate note, can anyone tell me whether Alan Rickman did have a private chat about his character with JK? I have certainly heard rumours to this effect, and I am wondering whether they are true or not.
Choices - Nov 12, 2003 10:09 am (#6 of 2956)
I have been undecided about Snape - whether he is good or evil. But last night in reading book two (again) I noticed something interesting when Harry ends up in Knockturn Alley. The shop where Mr. Malfoy goes to sell his poisons - a shop devoted to the dark arts - where Harry hides in the large cabinet to avoid Draco. The shopkeeper is described as "greasy" and I think JKR is using this to indicate characters who are evil. We all know that Snape is known for his "greasy" hair and he certainly looks evil and isn't very pleasant, so I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that he is going to turn out to be evil and betray the trust that Dumbledore has in him - or seems to have (maybe Dumbledore is just hoping that Snape's darker side will not win out). That may be the reason that Dumbledore will not entrust the teaching of the Defence Against the Dark Arts class to him.
Peregrine - Nov 12, 2003 10:26 am (#7 of 2956)
Choices, that?s the kind of thing we?re trying to determine with the Hidden Meaning of Hair thread further down?whether or not we can judge a character?s, er, character by their hair color and texture. It?s an interesting theory?come take a look!
Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 11:04 am (#8 of 2956)
Greasy may just be what it is, too- a descriptor. I'd probably go along with your idea, if say, someone we really know to be evil, like Malfoy or Voldemort or one of the DE's was described with greasy hair too, but it was just the shopkeeper. We haven't seen him since and maybe dabbling in dark art type things, like potions or whatnot (you know, hiding from the light, lurking in the shadows) just makes people have greasy hair. You have to admit Snape isn't exactly a SUN worshipper.
As for the calculating look thing about the Parselmouth- it's always struck me that in the book it's one way and Rickman plays it as surprise. Are the two the same?
timrew - Nov 12, 2003 12:30 pm (#9 of 2956)
"You have to admit Snape isn't exactly a SUN worshipper."
Sly, this conjured up an image of Snape in designer shades, lying on a sun-lounger on a tropical beach in his greying Bermudas, sipping one of those exotic cocktails out of a coconut with a little paper umbrella in it.....
Wouldn't that be an image he would confine to Dumbledore's Pensieve?
Gina R Snape - Nov 12, 2003 1:52 pm (#10 of 2956)
I like, Tim! Where's the sunblock?
And, I think the look Alan Rickman gives in the movie is interpretable. He looks shrewd and calculating in my eyes. The camera pans back and his eyes narrow when he looks at Harry. That didn't register as surprise to me.
S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 4:20 pm (#11 of 2956)
(CoS11) "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake.
Yeah, I definately think he was just trying to frighten, and possibly embarrass, Harry.....
Romana - Nov 13, 2003 7:29 am (#12 of 2956)
It is with a big broad smile I type this. I have just seen the Harry Potter trailer (go to warner brothers website if you havent). It looks fantastic! (not that that was ever in doubt) But my favourite part of the book was shown on the trailer, SNAPE IN DRAG! YAY! I had to stop myself from laughing, I think the others in the computer room might have had something to say!
But looking at the trailer (through the tears of laughter) it seemes as though Snape has been given quite a large role. I admit he has a large role anyway in the book, but I admit I thought it would be cut.
IT LOOKS GREAT!!!
Michele A - Nov 13, 2003 6:21 pm (#13 of 2956)
Hi, I think Snape is evil, and he pretends to be good. I will always think he's evil until he proves himself otherwise, but he seems to be getting deeper and deeper into evil the more Voldemort gains. In the first book, Harry's scar hurts when he sees Snape. A tie to Voldemort? Then it really started getting noticeable with GOF, then the icing on the cake for me was in OOTP, in the chapter where Snape gives Occlumency lessons to Harry. I said to myself, Well thats it for me. He is going to turn.
Thoes who are in Voldemorts service call him "Master" and the "Dark Lord". Example is when the fake Moody takes Harry away from Dumbledore's sight at the end of GOF and askes if the "What did the Dark Lord take from you?" He keeps mentioning the Dark Lord. Snape also refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord too, when teaching Harry Occlumency. ..."The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency..." Snape got very angry when Harry mentioned Voldemorts name, like it was an insult to Voldemort. But I could be wrong, perhaps others outside of Voldemorts service had mentioned him as the Dark Lord.
I think ultimately Snape will die in service to Lord Voldemort, not Dumbledore. Thats my 2 knuts.
Carina - Nov 13, 2003 7:16 pm (#14 of 2956)
Romana, there's a huge discussion of the trailer at Joa Pendragen "-- 3rd movie: HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban discussion" 11/13/03 7:11pm
The link should drop you right in the middle of the conversation.
Grant the Great - Nov 13, 2003 8:15 pm (#15 of 2956)
I think the interesting thing about Snape is how well-developed he is. I hope this post isn't too obvious already, BTW. I just thought I'd say that JKR has done an amazing job with having him look evil, so that he will fit in as a misunderstood good person or a truly evil person. It makes it so great, and I can't say I "know" what he is. That's what I love. I look forward to Book VII! Don't ya'll think that if he looked pleasant, with a negative personality, it wouldn't be very fitting for him to be good, because it's a bit too cliche. But, with the evil look going (minus the shades and sunblock, Tim! :slysmile: ), he can be either! I hope this made sense.
Weeny Owl - Nov 13, 2003 8:41 pm (#16 of 2956)
Grant:
When you mentioned Snape being well-developed, my little heart went pitty-patter.
I know you mean the character, and I agree with you. I've gone from thinking Snape is an absolute horror to thinking he might be a very good and accomplished actor who is hiding his true role from Voldie. Of course, that doesn't mean that in the sixth book he might not go back to being an absolute horror again, but I hope not.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 13, 2003 11:16 pm (#17 of 2956)
When Prof. Umbridge calls Snape to her office to ask for more Veritaserum, Harry is desperate to communicate with him. Harry frantically concentrates all of his energy to try and make a connection with Snape, force his legiliment abilities to communicate this urgent message. Yet Snape walks out of there and apparently received NO information from Harry.
While Snape has said the the mind is not like a book to be picked up, opened and read, you would think that in that situation Severus' curiosity would might want to reach out his mind to find out what is going on. So I wondered, did Harry so injure and scar Severus by looking in Snapes worst memory in the pensieve that he automatically occlumens (?) himself when he's around Harry.
It can be argued that we have seen Harry use legilimency while he was taking that final exam, so we know that he can go into the mind of another, so why did he so lack in connecting with Snape? Is Snape unable to bear the thought of connecting thoughts with Harry?
Dumblore later said that Snape did make efforts to keep track of Harry and know what was happening. Snape is expert at legilimancy and Harry also has shown to have the ability, yet at a crucial it failed them both. Was it because Snape was blocking Harry?
S.E. Jones - Nov 13, 2003 11:29 pm (#18 of 2956)
Snape is expert at legilimancy
Actually, the text says Snape is an expert at Occlumency. He can obviously use Legilimancy, as he uses it while giving Harry private lessons, but it never states he's an expert at it. I think, being an expert Occlumens, he always has his mental guard up and that's why Harry couldn't force it to work....
Neville Longbottom - Nov 14, 2003 2:10 am (#19 of 2956)
In the first book, Harry's scar hurts when he sees Snape. A tie to Voldemort?
That was actually a red herring. His scar hurt, because Voldemort himself, who was on Quirrel's backside, looked at him.
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 6:59 am (#20 of 2956)
:suppresses giggle: Neville, don't you mean Voldemort was on the back side of his head? His backside would be his butt! But yes, JKR did say that was a red herring.
Mrs. Sirius, interesting thought about that scene in Umbridge's office. I think what we learned there is that there is a difference between reading someone's mind and sending messages to someone's mind. I do think Snape uses Occlumency whenever he is around any perceived enemy, and Umbridge is certainly an enemy. I do not believe he was using it because of Harry.
but, to use Legilimency you must look in the person's eyes and say the word, right? So, I don't think he could have done that and not gone unnoticed. Everyone in the room would have seen he was trying to read Harry's mind, and they (or at least Umbridge)would have questioned him.
I actually wonder how useful Legilimency is as a stealth weapon, unless you are extremely practised. But then again, there are times in the other books where it seems like Snape is reading kids' minds. So, I'm guessing this might be further clarified in the next two books.
Neville Longbottom - Nov 14, 2003 7:03 am (#21 of 2956)
Oh my. Yes, that's of course what I meant. Sorry, English isn't my mothertongue.
S.E. Jones - Nov 14, 2003 9:51 am (#22 of 2956)
I don't know that you have to look into a person's eyes and say the word every time. I think it is just when you want to really break into the mind, pull out memories and such, not when you're just skimming the surface, reading the most prominant emotions. Harry has long mentioned Snape or Dumbledore replying to something he was thinking and has wondered if they could read his mind. I think they are able to, as I said, skim the surface, and pick up some residual emotions and thoughts, but not be able to penetrate too deeply without the incantation. Of course, this is just my own personal theory, but I do think it would explain quite a few scenes....
Blast - Nov 14, 2003 12:49 pm (#23 of 2956)
We must remember that Snape is a very proud man. In the CoS when Lockheart says that he can whip up a Mandrake retoritive potion in his sleep, Snape bluntly reminds Lockheart that he is the potion master at Hogwarts. Unfortunatly Snape is also an arrogant insuferable know it all. Yes I am comparing him to Hermiome. This could be the reason why Dumbledore does not give him the DADA teaching position. Snape needs this goal kept out of his reach until he can learn that even though he would be great at teaching DADA , he probably would let it go to his head. When a proud person is denyied the thing he want's most, he will overcompinsate at what he has to show he is the best. In this way DD has made probably the best potion master that ever taught at Hogwarts. I think this is why Snape reacted so violently when Harry was in the pensieve. He did not want Harry to see him as anything but what he projects. In this way he is not exposing any weaknesses to Harry. I think that a weak Snape in Harry's eyes would bring about a feeling of pity instead of imtimidation. Snape has a lot of skeletons in his closet and I think that as the books continue, we will see some of them come out.
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 1:13 pm (#24 of 2956)
Brilliant, Blast end newt!
Snape should be proud for his intelligence and for what he's accomplished. But bravo to Dumbledore for his good management skills at bringing out the best in our beloved Potionns Master.
I don't have pity for him. I have compassion. But I'm not sure young Harry is mature/sophisticated enough yet to know the subtle difference.
Andrew Hunt - Nov 14, 2003 1:56 pm (#25 of 2956)
Why Snape's Cover is Blown
Hello to all, this is my first post. I think I've come up with a theory which may ruin Shape's cover (being a spy for Dumbledore) but feel free to prove me wrong! Ok, so in the fifth book, O.o.P, Harry gives an interview on what happened the night Cedric was murdered. This interview appeared in The Quibbler, a fairly popular magazine for witches and wizards. All right so far? Good! Harry lists the death eaters which appeared in the graveyard when summoned by Voldemort (sorry for saying the name). Some people can argue that Snape could not apparate then because he was at Hogwarts. I can refute this though: a. The death eaters did NOT apparate in the graveyard. When they feel the mark on their arms burn, they can touch it and they are transpoted to Voldemort. b. There is a pause of a few minutes between when Voldemort summons the death eaters, and when they all appear, plenty of time for Snape to get away from Hogwarts and disapparate, if that's actually what they need to do. Ok! So now whether Snape is in the graveyard or not, Harry names the death eaters. Now thee are two possibilities: 1. HARRY DOES NOT NAME SNAPE AS A DEATH EATER: Somehow Voldemorts' supporters get hold of the Quibbler, seeing as it is a wizarding magazine. They realize that Snape is the only one not listed as being present in the graveyard. Then they all know that Snape is a spy for the other side. 2. HARRY DOES NAME SNAPE AS A DEATH EATER: Now he's in trouble. Several parents and students would read the article and realize that they or their children are being taught by a death eater! Snape is fired. Now clearly this did not happen in the book, therfore we must assume that Harry did NOT name Snape as present, which results in Snapes' cover being blown forever. Any comments?
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 2:07 pm (#26 of 2956)
Welcome to the forum AndrewHunt! Note: I started posting this on the new thread you created, but I see it was moved to this thread. So, I'm just going to cut and paste my response.
Far be it from me to discourage as many Snape threads as possible... But you might want to check out the thread fidelio "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 8/30/03 10:36am
this topic, if not your exact points, is discussed there. You might also want to try the search function if you haven't already, in getting to know the board and the various discussions already underway.
By the way, I don't see how The Dark Lord's dark mark is any different from disapparating and apparating. In GoF one of the DEs specificially mentions apparating by his side. I'm sorry I don't have the exact quote at this moment, but I do remember reading that.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2003 2:11 pm (#27 of 2956)
Snape says it, Gina
"When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side." It is when he is talking to Fudge at the end of GoF, right before Fudge gives Harry the 1000 galleons.
Weeny Owl - Nov 14, 2003 2:45 pm (#28 of 2956)
Mentioning or not mentioning Snape in the article in "The Quibbler" doesn't mean all that much since Voldie didn't name all the Death Eaters present at the rebirth.
I can't remember exactly how many were named, but it was in the low twenties, I think. Later, Harry is thinking of what spells he could use on Voldie and thinks something about how he could use Expelliarmus, but since he's outnumbered by about 30 to 1, it wouldn't do him much good to get Voldie's wand.
The rebirthing scene did mention that Voldie passed by some Death Eaters without mentioning names, so whoever was left out of the article would be known probably only to Voldie himself. They are all hooded and masked, after all.
Grant the Great - Nov 14, 2003 3:19 pm (#29 of 2956)
Don't mean to change the subject, but I have a question for British residents. OK, Snape is called the "Potions Master" at least once. Is this the same thing as a regular teacher, or are there certain qualities one must have (ie. teaching for so many years) before they become a "master?" I was just wondering, because if you have to have studied so much of the subject to be a master, it really adds to the fact that he must really know his potions (and he probably, therefore, used them as a Death Eater).
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 3:35 pm (#30 of 2956)
:bows my head in shame: Oh, Denise.
How could I forget that quote came directly from my beloved Potion's Master's lips? I must go iron my hands now.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 14, 2003 10:28 pm (#31 of 2956)
Andrew while your theory about how the deatheaters arrived at the graveyard may not hold water, I do like it for explaining how Dobby may get in and out of Hogwarts if one can't apparate within the castle, it's a little like a portkey.
Now about the legilimency, we really do need more information about it. I was under the impression that Snape was equally expert at occlumency as legilimency from things said in a couple of places (of course I could just be jump to wild conclusions).
During his first lesson Snape tells Harry "Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand."
During another lesson, there is an extend exchange, Harry asks something to the effect of how do you know what's going on at the Dept. of Mysteries, and Prof. Snape responds, -that's my job-. I always interpreted that to mean that it was Snape's job to spy on Lord Thingy. Even Lupin when dropping the group off after the Knight bus ride, tells Harry the Snape is "a superb" occlumens. I consider a compliment from Lupin very worthy of noting. Also I would say that to teach occlumency one must also have fairly good legilimency skills. And as SEJones noted there are times that Harry thought or felt that Dumbledore or Snape where watching him or knew what he was thinking.
Perhaps these facts are too divergent to really make a strong argument that Snape is an expert legilemens, but I do get the feeling that, whatever Snape does, he does very well.
Blast - Nov 15, 2003 3:49 am (#32 of 2956)
Did not someone say [Karkaroff] that the Dark Lord only knew who all his death eaters were? Was this not to protect them from being ratted out? If this was the case maybe there are exception to the you must apperate to my side rules. If there are mole D.E.s I don't think that Voldemort would want them to be known. If this is the case, we may have a lot more suprises in store in the future. This way Snape can still play the double role. The D.E.s that apperated may only be one cell of many.
Blast - Nov 15, 2003 5:41 pm (#33 of 2956)
Something that Phineas Nigellus said about Slytherins; We Slytherinsare brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given yhe choice, we will always choose to save our own necks. If Snape has to choose in an upcoming situation will he give the ultimate sacrifice to save someone else or will he take door number two and save his own neck? Snape to me is a very complex personality, I think that he would give his life but it would have to be a glorious one. Snape is arrogant,, bullish, jealous, and downright miserable most of the time, but he is also very smart and brave. I could see him sacrificing himself but I think that he would give it deep thought before he did. If he did give his life up unconditionaly he would of been sorted into Gryffindor.
Gina R Snape - Nov 15, 2003 11:36 pm (#34 of 2956)
As much as he hates Harry Potter, I think Snape would give his life to save Harry's if--and only if--Snape knew for certain that it would mean ridding the world of Voldemort. I also believe he would give his life to Dumbledore. But that's about it.
Blast - Nov 16, 2003 12:00 am (#35 of 2956)
Snape is one of those character that you love to hate. The reason that I like him is that he is an enigma. You know he has been evil, but something happened to him. Did he change or didn't he. JKR. has created a litterairy paradox here . Is Snape bad or good? I guess only time will tell. There is a deep hole in Snape, he dwells on too many bad things. He is kind of an opposite to Hagrid who for the most part sees good in things. I wonder if the wizarding world has healers for the sole. Maybe if there are, Snape should check into St. Mungos for a session. Could Snape learn to love? Only Gina knows for sure.
Gina R Snape - Nov 16, 2003 12:23 am (#36 of 2956)
You are too kind, Blast.
After OoP, though, I was wondering if there were mental health counselors in the wizarding world. Harry and Severus could do with a nice therapeutic chat or three.
Blast - Nov 16, 2003 8:26 pm (#37 of 2956)
Is Snape acting as Harry's conscience? He seems to be intent in making sure that Harry does not get away with very much.I've noticed that Harry seems to have a few similarities with Tom Riddle here. Is Snape trying so hard to get Harry in trouble because he sees some of Voldemorte in Harry? Does he want to keep Harry humble bacause he knows of Harry's destiny? In some ways Snape and Dumbledore seem to be playing good cop bad cop with Harry. There is obviously Snape's dislike of James but to me there is something eles there. Maybe Snape in his own special way will make a better person out of Harryin the long run.
Madame Librarian - Nov 16, 2003 8:46 pm (#38 of 2956)
Blast end, I like your comment that Snape and Dumbledore might be the "good cop, bad cop" for Harry.
In OoP we see Harry have negative emotions about Dumbledore, and when he's possessed by V., Harry experiences a hate so strong toward DD that he could kill him. So there you have someone Harry loves becoming someone Harry hates (at least temporarily). I wonder if in book 6 or 7, a similar flip-flop will happen with Harry's feelings toward Snape. It could be JKR's way of getting across the idea that love and hate are such powerful emotions, and they are not very far removed from each other.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkes Forever - Nov 17, 2003 3:58 am (#39 of 2956)
Grant the Great : Don't mean to change the subject, but I have a question for British residents. OK, Snape is called the "Potions Master" at least once. Is this the same thing as a regular teacher, or are there certain qualities one must have (ie. teaching for so many years) before they become a "master?" I was just wondering, because if you have to have studied so much of the subject to be a master, it really adds to the fact that he must really know his potions (and he probably, therefore, used them as a Death Eater).
Ok, so I'm not a British resident, but I grew up in the North of Ireland, where our Education system is identical to the UK, so I hope I'm qualified to answer this question!
The term Master, in respect to a school, is another name for a Teacher, or to be more specific, it's the name for a male teacher. As far as I know it's not related to experience in the job or knowledge of the subject, but more as a term of respect. It's sometimes used instead of 'Sir' by a pupil when addressing a male teacher, or can be used as a full title, e.g. referring to Prof Lupin & Prof Snape as Master Lupin & Master Snape!
It's sort of old fashioned really & probably goes back to the days of the old school teachers in the 19th & early 20th centurys, when one teacher usually taught the whole school in one classroom. In the case of a male teacher this meant that in effect he was the teacher & head master [principal] all in one!
Maybe you don't have that term in the US version of the books? Whenever a male teacher becomes the head-teacher /principal, they are refered to as being the Head Master, (or Head Mistress if female, however I've never heard female teachers refered to as Mistresses though )
Hope I explained myself properly, I'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well today.... sorry.
I could also be wrong? If anyone else knows different, or knows anything more on this subject, please feel free to enlighten us
Gina R Snape - Nov 17, 2003 9:43 am (#40 of 2956)
I've discussed this many times on various Snape groups and, yes, the concensus among fans seems to be that "Master" is an old fashioned term in the way you described it Fawkes. It might also be related to him being the 3rd in command after DD and McGonagall.
As for the good cop/bad cop idea. I concur completely. It has been my contention all along, from my first introduction to Snape, that he is practising a form of "tough love" as it were. Not that he feels love particularly for the child, but that he believes not letting Potter get away with things and not allowing him to be treated specially is in his best interest. He even says as much in GoF (or was it PoA? I forget...) when Fudge says "Well, you know, we let the Potter boy get away with things..." or something along those lines. And Snape says he strives to treat him the same as everyone else.
Little Ginny - Nov 17, 2003 12:12 pm (#41 of 2956)
I think as well that if Snape just hated Harry it would be far too easy.
I think that Snape is not nearly as bad as some people might think while first reading the book. I think what makes him so hateable is his pride (even more than Mr Darcy- if anyone knows Pride and Prejudice) and, of course, the dark secret from his past.
and I think there must be a really great secret in the past (even greater than just the DE thing) because I think I remember JKR once said that she needed to give Alan Rickman a lot of background information about Snape, and I think that JKR didn't want to answer questions about Snape's love life. Now, I don't want to begin theories whether he has ahd an affair with Mrs Weasley, or Lily Potter, or anyone else, but I think there are loads of things we don't know about old Snape.
timrew - Nov 17, 2003 4:44 pm (#42 of 2956)
There's something I've been thinking about for a while. We know that Snape was a Death Eater for a time; but then he came back into the fold and joined the Order Of The Phoenix as a spy in Voldemort's camp.
Why did he do this?
I've been wondering if he was at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort, and witnessed the murders of James and Lily, and the attempted murder of Harry.
Could he have been so sickened by this incident that he decided to leave the Death Eaters?
Could this be why he is so protective of Harry now, and not because of the James/Lupin incident? He expressed contempt to Harry about James having saved his life; and put it more down to James saving his own and Sirius' skin from becoming murderers.
Where was Snape on the night James and Lily were murdered? Am I opening another useful line of discussion, or am I completely wrong? Ideas?
Blast - Nov 17, 2003 5:15 pm (#43 of 2956)
Was not Snape already working as a spy when Lilly and James were murdered? In the pensieve does not Dumbledore say that Snape had already switched sides before Voldemort's downfall? He could of still gone with Voldemort but I think that he had already jumped ship before the murders.
Neville Longbottom - Nov 17, 2003 8:49 pm (#44 of 2956)
Dumbledore said that Snape changed sides before Voldemorts downfall. After the Godric's Hollow murders there was nothing he could have spied, because Voldemort was gone.
Gina R Snape - Nov 17, 2003 9:39 pm (#45 of 2956)
Tim, did you read my theory on Snape and the prophesy?
Neville is right about the timing. Snape switched sides before the night the Potters were murdered and Harry became The Boy Who Lived.
timrew - Nov 18, 2003 10:17 am (#46 of 2956)
Okay, I stand corrected!
mollis - Nov 18, 2003 11:48 am (#47 of 2956)
I am of the opinion that it may have been Snape who told DD that the Potters were being targeted by Voldemort. It goes along with the theory that Snape had a thing for Lily, something like this: Snape is a loyal DE that may have some doubts, but learns that Voldemort is going to kill the Potters (James, Lily, and Harry). Snape has had a crush on Lily or been in love with her and despite his hatred for James, switches sides and tells DD everything he knows in an effort to protect Lily. Maybe Snape is there the night Voldemort kills James and Lily and tries to kill Harry. And maybe he knows Lily didn't have to die, but did anyway to protect Harry. And maybe that's why Snape hates Harry so much: the woman he was in love with gave her life to save the life of the child she had with his mortal enemy. Snape remained loyal to DD because he could never support someone that liked his beloved Lily.
Yeah I know, way too many maybes. But is there any cannon to contradict this explanation?
SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 12:14 pm (#48 of 2956)
>It has been my contention all along, from my first introduction to Snape, that he is practising a form of "tough love" as it were. Not that he feels love particularly for the child, but that he believes not letting Potter get away with things and not allowing him to be treated specially is in his best interest.
We might as well contend that Umbridge really wasn't a vindictive witch out to get Harry and destroy Hogwarts. After all, didn't those dementors she sent after him allow him to practice defending himself in battlefield conditions? Tough love, but love all the same.
She also wanted to get rid of the two worst teachers in the school. Even Harry admits to himself that Hagrid isn't a good teacher, and who needs to be told the fake prophesy that they're going to die soon? Trelawney is an obvious sadist who shouldn't be teaching anything.
Umbridge (bless her) tried to impose order in a school that had four consecutive years of at least one extremely hazardous event taking place each year, and where a student finally did die the prior year. A school that had used an escaped DE from Azkaban as a teacher the prior year! And had allowed plagiarist imposter to teach two years before that.
She tried to protect the students from the danger of casting curses on each other in DADA. She monitored the floo network to try catching another dangerous escapee from Azkaban. She even wanted to have that vile and nasty poltergeist, Peeves, exorcized. Isn't that good?
Many of the things she did were unpopular with students and staff, and many seemed very unfair to those involved, but wasn't she just playing ?tough cop" and allowing herself to be unjustly hated for the greatest good of all involved? Can you imagine how much that must have hurt her, knowing everyone hated her for trying to save them?
Just like Snape who only "seems" dramatically unfair to Harry, but really only has Harry's best interest at heart?
And Filch. Doesn't he only want to teach the students to respect the rules and behave properly? Isn't that part of what they're at school for?
Isn't Peeves there to teach the students how to think fast in bad situations... which he only happens to be the one creating? Those lessons will come in handy someday.
Plus Fudge isn't really a power hungry duffer. He knew premature announcment of the return of Voldemort would create chaos. He wanted to protect the citizens from hurting each other. Of course he had to discredit Harry and Dumbledore, or how could he have maintained order? They both insisted on trying to create a panic in the Wizard world, and had to be stopped.
Gina R Snape: >>After OoP, though, I was wondering if there were mental health counselors in the wizarding world. Harry and Severus could do with a nice therapeutic chat or three.
I couldn't agree with you more.
SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 12:53 pm (#49 of 2956)
After re-reading my above post I realize that it probably came off as much too sarcastic, although it was meant to be humorous.
My only point was that sometimes characters really are what they seem to be, and we readers (myself included) can go too deep into trying to find hidden meanings and motivations. My method was jokingly defending characters that other people wouldn't be likely to want to defend.
I apologize to anyone that my original post may have offended. The "joke" obviously went too far.
Gina R Snape - Nov 18, 2003 2:12 pm (#50 of 2956)
SJRand, I am so glad you posted your second post before I ever got to read the first one. I was ready for a major argument!
But I will argue without malice (but with the familiar conviction and passion nonetheless that others here know of me...) the following points:
There are lines one should never cross. And I personally don't believe Snape has really crossed them. Come very very close? Sure. But he hasn't seriously attempted or actually inflicted bodily harm on Harry, he hasn't stopped him from learning, and hasn't denied him his rights. Umbridge did all of those things and then some.
I don't think Fudge was avoiding chaos with a premature announcement. I think--and I mean literally, clinically--that he was in genuine denial and experiencing acute paranoia.
Filch is a frustrated squib. Peeves I have no comment on. I honestly haven't spent much time thinking about him.
And unlike Umbridge, Fudge, Filch, or Peeves, Snape has gone out of his way in every single book, on some occasions risking mortal peril behind the scenes, to save and protect Harry's life.
So, these are my opinions.
And on an amusing side-note, Alan Rickman was interviewed on the Jimmy Kimmel show last week and a kid on the show said "Yes, you are evil" meaning Snape, and Alan responded, "What did I do? All I've ever done is try and save the boy's life!" Hee. Thought you all might find that entertaining.
Well, ok. I was hoping to get to be poster #666 on the Snape thread. But, oh well. I can be first here!
So, this is a topic I was debating with a friend the other day I can't remember being here. Who thinks Snape told Malfoy to use Serpensortia in the dueling scene in CoS to see if Harry was a parselmouth? In the book, he whispers and grins in Malfoy's ear. And, we can suspect the paintings reported to Dumbledore when they overheard Harry saying to Ron and Hermione that he was hearing voices.
Anyone?
S.E. Jones - Nov 11, 2003 10:42 am (#2 of 2956)
Hm, interesting. I thought, though, that Snape was surprised and upset when Harry spoke to the snake. Isn't there a description of him making some sort of face? 'Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: It was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it.' (CoS11) I definately think Snape told Malfoy to use that spell, though. I think he wanted to scare the pride of Gryffindor with a little snake (the symbol of Slytherin house)...
mollis - Nov 11, 2003 3:50 pm (#3 of 2956)
Yes, it would make sense for Snape to have Draco use a snake. It is both the symbol of Slytherin and most people are afraid of snakes. I don't see why Snape would have a reason to suspect Harry of being a parselmouth, though. Even if the portraits told DD (good thought, by the way!) he was hearing voices, why would they think he was parseltounge? It seems to me Snape would prefer to think of Harry insane rather than having an ability that would likely be prized in the Slytherin house.
Mad Goose - Nov 11, 2003 6:17 pm (#4 of 2956)
True, I imagine that Malfoy did not like Slytherin having anything in common with Potter.
I also think, and this was discussed on the thread about Snape and occlumency and legilimency, that Snape was reading Harry's thoughts.
Romana - Nov 12, 2003 6:15 am (#5 of 2956)
Possibly Snape whispered this spell into Draco's ear out of malice for Potter, possibly he wanted to see Potter scared or something. The shrewd look may mean many things, my favourite being that the only other person Snape had heard talking like that was Voldemort, and he was surprised (Alan Rickman looked puzzled in the film.)
On a slighly separate note, can anyone tell me whether Alan Rickman did have a private chat about his character with JK? I have certainly heard rumours to this effect, and I am wondering whether they are true or not.
Choices - Nov 12, 2003 10:09 am (#6 of 2956)
I have been undecided about Snape - whether he is good or evil. But last night in reading book two (again) I noticed something interesting when Harry ends up in Knockturn Alley. The shop where Mr. Malfoy goes to sell his poisons - a shop devoted to the dark arts - where Harry hides in the large cabinet to avoid Draco. The shopkeeper is described as "greasy" and I think JKR is using this to indicate characters who are evil. We all know that Snape is known for his "greasy" hair and he certainly looks evil and isn't very pleasant, so I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that he is going to turn out to be evil and betray the trust that Dumbledore has in him - or seems to have (maybe Dumbledore is just hoping that Snape's darker side will not win out). That may be the reason that Dumbledore will not entrust the teaching of the Defence Against the Dark Arts class to him.
Peregrine - Nov 12, 2003 10:26 am (#7 of 2956)
Choices, that?s the kind of thing we?re trying to determine with the Hidden Meaning of Hair thread further down?whether or not we can judge a character?s, er, character by their hair color and texture. It?s an interesting theory?come take a look!
Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 11:04 am (#8 of 2956)
Greasy may just be what it is, too- a descriptor. I'd probably go along with your idea, if say, someone we really know to be evil, like Malfoy or Voldemort or one of the DE's was described with greasy hair too, but it was just the shopkeeper. We haven't seen him since and maybe dabbling in dark art type things, like potions or whatnot (you know, hiding from the light, lurking in the shadows) just makes people have greasy hair. You have to admit Snape isn't exactly a SUN worshipper.
As for the calculating look thing about the Parselmouth- it's always struck me that in the book it's one way and Rickman plays it as surprise. Are the two the same?
timrew - Nov 12, 2003 12:30 pm (#9 of 2956)
"You have to admit Snape isn't exactly a SUN worshipper."
Sly, this conjured up an image of Snape in designer shades, lying on a sun-lounger on a tropical beach in his greying Bermudas, sipping one of those exotic cocktails out of a coconut with a little paper umbrella in it.....
Wouldn't that be an image he would confine to Dumbledore's Pensieve?
Gina R Snape - Nov 12, 2003 1:52 pm (#10 of 2956)
I like, Tim! Where's the sunblock?
And, I think the look Alan Rickman gives in the movie is interpretable. He looks shrewd and calculating in my eyes. The camera pans back and his eyes narrow when he looks at Harry. That didn't register as surprise to me.
S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 4:20 pm (#11 of 2956)
(CoS11) "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake.
Yeah, I definately think he was just trying to frighten, and possibly embarrass, Harry.....
Romana - Nov 13, 2003 7:29 am (#12 of 2956)
It is with a big broad smile I type this. I have just seen the Harry Potter trailer (go to warner brothers website if you havent). It looks fantastic! (not that that was ever in doubt) But my favourite part of the book was shown on the trailer, SNAPE IN DRAG! YAY! I had to stop myself from laughing, I think the others in the computer room might have had something to say!
But looking at the trailer (through the tears of laughter) it seemes as though Snape has been given quite a large role. I admit he has a large role anyway in the book, but I admit I thought it would be cut.
IT LOOKS GREAT!!!
Michele A - Nov 13, 2003 6:21 pm (#13 of 2956)
Hi, I think Snape is evil, and he pretends to be good. I will always think he's evil until he proves himself otherwise, but he seems to be getting deeper and deeper into evil the more Voldemort gains. In the first book, Harry's scar hurts when he sees Snape. A tie to Voldemort? Then it really started getting noticeable with GOF, then the icing on the cake for me was in OOTP, in the chapter where Snape gives Occlumency lessons to Harry. I said to myself, Well thats it for me. He is going to turn.
Thoes who are in Voldemorts service call him "Master" and the "Dark Lord". Example is when the fake Moody takes Harry away from Dumbledore's sight at the end of GOF and askes if the "What did the Dark Lord take from you?" He keeps mentioning the Dark Lord. Snape also refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord too, when teaching Harry Occlumency. ..."The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency..." Snape got very angry when Harry mentioned Voldemorts name, like it was an insult to Voldemort. But I could be wrong, perhaps others outside of Voldemorts service had mentioned him as the Dark Lord.
I think ultimately Snape will die in service to Lord Voldemort, not Dumbledore. Thats my 2 knuts.
Carina - Nov 13, 2003 7:16 pm (#14 of 2956)
Romana, there's a huge discussion of the trailer at Joa Pendragen "-- 3rd movie: HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban discussion" 11/13/03 7:11pm
The link should drop you right in the middle of the conversation.
Grant the Great - Nov 13, 2003 8:15 pm (#15 of 2956)
I think the interesting thing about Snape is how well-developed he is. I hope this post isn't too obvious already, BTW. I just thought I'd say that JKR has done an amazing job with having him look evil, so that he will fit in as a misunderstood good person or a truly evil person. It makes it so great, and I can't say I "know" what he is. That's what I love. I look forward to Book VII! Don't ya'll think that if he looked pleasant, with a negative personality, it wouldn't be very fitting for him to be good, because it's a bit too cliche. But, with the evil look going (minus the shades and sunblock, Tim! :slysmile: ), he can be either! I hope this made sense.
Weeny Owl - Nov 13, 2003 8:41 pm (#16 of 2956)
Grant:
When you mentioned Snape being well-developed, my little heart went pitty-patter.
I know you mean the character, and I agree with you. I've gone from thinking Snape is an absolute horror to thinking he might be a very good and accomplished actor who is hiding his true role from Voldie. Of course, that doesn't mean that in the sixth book he might not go back to being an absolute horror again, but I hope not.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 13, 2003 11:16 pm (#17 of 2956)
When Prof. Umbridge calls Snape to her office to ask for more Veritaserum, Harry is desperate to communicate with him. Harry frantically concentrates all of his energy to try and make a connection with Snape, force his legiliment abilities to communicate this urgent message. Yet Snape walks out of there and apparently received NO information from Harry.
While Snape has said the the mind is not like a book to be picked up, opened and read, you would think that in that situation Severus' curiosity would might want to reach out his mind to find out what is going on. So I wondered, did Harry so injure and scar Severus by looking in Snapes worst memory in the pensieve that he automatically occlumens (?) himself when he's around Harry.
It can be argued that we have seen Harry use legilimency while he was taking that final exam, so we know that he can go into the mind of another, so why did he so lack in connecting with Snape? Is Snape unable to bear the thought of connecting thoughts with Harry?
Dumblore later said that Snape did make efforts to keep track of Harry and know what was happening. Snape is expert at legilimancy and Harry also has shown to have the ability, yet at a crucial it failed them both. Was it because Snape was blocking Harry?
S.E. Jones - Nov 13, 2003 11:29 pm (#18 of 2956)
Snape is expert at legilimancy
Actually, the text says Snape is an expert at Occlumency. He can obviously use Legilimancy, as he uses it while giving Harry private lessons, but it never states he's an expert at it. I think, being an expert Occlumens, he always has his mental guard up and that's why Harry couldn't force it to work....
Neville Longbottom - Nov 14, 2003 2:10 am (#19 of 2956)
In the first book, Harry's scar hurts when he sees Snape. A tie to Voldemort?
That was actually a red herring. His scar hurt, because Voldemort himself, who was on Quirrel's backside, looked at him.
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 6:59 am (#20 of 2956)
:suppresses giggle: Neville, don't you mean Voldemort was on the back side of his head? His backside would be his butt! But yes, JKR did say that was a red herring.
Mrs. Sirius, interesting thought about that scene in Umbridge's office. I think what we learned there is that there is a difference between reading someone's mind and sending messages to someone's mind. I do think Snape uses Occlumency whenever he is around any perceived enemy, and Umbridge is certainly an enemy. I do not believe he was using it because of Harry.
but, to use Legilimency you must look in the person's eyes and say the word, right? So, I don't think he could have done that and not gone unnoticed. Everyone in the room would have seen he was trying to read Harry's mind, and they (or at least Umbridge)would have questioned him.
I actually wonder how useful Legilimency is as a stealth weapon, unless you are extremely practised. But then again, there are times in the other books where it seems like Snape is reading kids' minds. So, I'm guessing this might be further clarified in the next two books.
Neville Longbottom - Nov 14, 2003 7:03 am (#21 of 2956)
Oh my. Yes, that's of course what I meant. Sorry, English isn't my mothertongue.
S.E. Jones - Nov 14, 2003 9:51 am (#22 of 2956)
I don't know that you have to look into a person's eyes and say the word every time. I think it is just when you want to really break into the mind, pull out memories and such, not when you're just skimming the surface, reading the most prominant emotions. Harry has long mentioned Snape or Dumbledore replying to something he was thinking and has wondered if they could read his mind. I think they are able to, as I said, skim the surface, and pick up some residual emotions and thoughts, but not be able to penetrate too deeply without the incantation. Of course, this is just my own personal theory, but I do think it would explain quite a few scenes....
Blast - Nov 14, 2003 12:49 pm (#23 of 2956)
We must remember that Snape is a very proud man. In the CoS when Lockheart says that he can whip up a Mandrake retoritive potion in his sleep, Snape bluntly reminds Lockheart that he is the potion master at Hogwarts. Unfortunatly Snape is also an arrogant insuferable know it all. Yes I am comparing him to Hermiome. This could be the reason why Dumbledore does not give him the DADA teaching position. Snape needs this goal kept out of his reach until he can learn that even though he would be great at teaching DADA , he probably would let it go to his head. When a proud person is denyied the thing he want's most, he will overcompinsate at what he has to show he is the best. In this way DD has made probably the best potion master that ever taught at Hogwarts. I think this is why Snape reacted so violently when Harry was in the pensieve. He did not want Harry to see him as anything but what he projects. In this way he is not exposing any weaknesses to Harry. I think that a weak Snape in Harry's eyes would bring about a feeling of pity instead of imtimidation. Snape has a lot of skeletons in his closet and I think that as the books continue, we will see some of them come out.
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 1:13 pm (#24 of 2956)
Brilliant, Blast end newt!
Snape should be proud for his intelligence and for what he's accomplished. But bravo to Dumbledore for his good management skills at bringing out the best in our beloved Potionns Master.
I don't have pity for him. I have compassion. But I'm not sure young Harry is mature/sophisticated enough yet to know the subtle difference.
Andrew Hunt - Nov 14, 2003 1:56 pm (#25 of 2956)
Why Snape's Cover is Blown
Hello to all, this is my first post. I think I've come up with a theory which may ruin Shape's cover (being a spy for Dumbledore) but feel free to prove me wrong!
Ok, so in the fifth book, O.o.P, Harry gives an interview on what happened the night Cedric was murdered. This interview appeared in The Quibbler, a fairly popular magazine for witches and wizards. All right so far? Good! Harry lists the death eaters which appeared in the graveyard when summoned by Voldemort (sorry for saying the name). Some people can argue that Snape could not apparate then because he was at Hogwarts. I can refute this though: a. The death eaters did NOT apparate in the graveyard. When they feel the mark on their arms burn, they can touch it and they are transpoted to Voldemort. b. There is a pause of a few minutes between when Voldemort summons the death eaters, and when they all appear, plenty of time for Snape to get away from Hogwarts and disapparate, if that's actually what they need to do. Ok! So now whether Snape is in the graveyard or not, Harry names the death eaters. Now thee are two possibilities: 1. HARRY DOES NOT NAME SNAPE AS A DEATH EATER: Somehow Voldemorts' supporters get hold of the Quibbler, seeing as it is a wizarding magazine. They realize that Snape is the only one not listed as being present in the graveyard. Then they all know that Snape is a spy for the other side. 2. HARRY DOES NAME SNAPE AS A DEATH EATER: Now he's in trouble. Several parents and students would read the article and realize that they or their children are being taught by a death eater! Snape is fired. Now clearly this did not happen in the book, therfore we must assume that Harry did NOT name Snape as present, which results in Snapes' cover being blown forever. Any comments? Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 2:07 pm (#26 of 2956)
Welcome to the forum AndrewHunt! Note: I started posting this on the new thread you created, but I see it was moved to this thread. So, I'm just going to cut and paste my response.
Far be it from me to discourage as many Snape threads as possible... But you might want to check out the thread fidelio "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 8/30/03 10:36am
this topic, if not your exact points, is discussed there. You might also want to try the search function if you haven't already, in getting to know the board and the various discussions already underway.
By the way, I don't see how The Dark Lord's dark mark is any different from disapparating and apparating. In GoF one of the DEs specificially mentions apparating by his side. I'm sorry I don't have the exact quote at this moment, but I do remember reading that.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2003 2:11 pm (#27 of 2956)
Snape says it, Gina
"When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side." It is when he is talking to Fudge at the end of GoF, right before Fudge gives Harry the 1000 galleons.
Weeny Owl - Nov 14, 2003 2:45 pm (#28 of 2956)
Mentioning or not mentioning Snape in the article in "The Quibbler" doesn't mean all that much since Voldie didn't name all the Death Eaters present at the rebirth.
I can't remember exactly how many were named, but it was in the low twenties, I think. Later, Harry is thinking of what spells he could use on Voldie and thinks something about how he could use Expelliarmus, but since he's outnumbered by about 30 to 1, it wouldn't do him much good to get Voldie's wand.
The rebirthing scene did mention that Voldie passed by some Death Eaters without mentioning names, so whoever was left out of the article would be known probably only to Voldie himself. They are all hooded and masked, after all.
Grant the Great - Nov 14, 2003 3:19 pm (#29 of 2956)
Don't mean to change the subject, but I have a question for British residents. OK, Snape is called the "Potions Master" at least once. Is this the same thing as a regular teacher, or are there certain qualities one must have (ie. teaching for so many years) before they become a "master?" I was just wondering, because if you have to have studied so much of the subject to be a master, it really adds to the fact that he must really know his potions (and he probably, therefore, used them as a Death Eater).
Gina R Snape - Nov 14, 2003 3:35 pm (#30 of 2956)
:bows my head in shame: Oh, Denise.
How could I forget that quote came directly from my beloved Potion's Master's lips? I must go iron my hands now.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 14, 2003 10:28 pm (#31 of 2956)
Andrew while your theory about how the deatheaters arrived at the graveyard may not hold water, I do like it for explaining how Dobby may get in and out of Hogwarts if one can't apparate within the castle, it's a little like a portkey.
Now about the legilimency, we really do need more information about it. I was under the impression that Snape was equally expert at occlumency as legilimency from things said in a couple of places (of course I could just be jump to wild conclusions).
During his first lesson Snape tells Harry "Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand."
During another lesson, there is an extend exchange, Harry asks something to the effect of how do you know what's going on at the Dept. of Mysteries, and Prof. Snape responds, -that's my job-. I always interpreted that to mean that it was Snape's job to spy on Lord Thingy. Even Lupin when dropping the group off after the Knight bus ride, tells Harry the Snape is "a superb" occlumens. I consider a compliment from Lupin very worthy of noting. Also I would say that to teach occlumency one must also have fairly good legilimency skills. And as SEJones noted there are times that Harry thought or felt that Dumbledore or Snape where watching him or knew what he was thinking.
Perhaps these facts are too divergent to really make a strong argument that Snape is an expert legilemens, but I do get the feeling that, whatever Snape does, he does very well.
Blast - Nov 15, 2003 3:49 am (#32 of 2956)
Did not someone say [Karkaroff] that the Dark Lord only knew who all his death eaters were? Was this not to protect them from being ratted out? If this was the case maybe there are exception to the you must apperate to my side rules. If there are mole D.E.s I don't think that Voldemort would want them to be known. If this is the case, we may have a lot more suprises in store in the future. This way Snape can still play the double role. The D.E.s that apperated may only be one cell of many.
Blast - Nov 15, 2003 5:41 pm (#33 of 2956)
Something that Phineas Nigellus said about Slytherins; We Slytherinsare brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given yhe choice, we will always choose to save our own necks. If Snape has to choose in an upcoming situation will he give the ultimate sacrifice to save someone else or will he take door number two and save his own neck? Snape to me is a very complex personality, I think that he would give his life but it would have to be a glorious one. Snape is arrogant,, bullish, jealous, and downright miserable most of the time, but he is also very smart and brave. I could see him sacrificing himself but I think that he would give it deep thought before he did. If he did give his life up unconditionaly he would of been sorted into Gryffindor.
Gina R Snape - Nov 15, 2003 11:36 pm (#34 of 2956)
As much as he hates Harry Potter, I think Snape would give his life to save Harry's if--and only if--Snape knew for certain that it would mean ridding the world of Voldemort. I also believe he would give his life to Dumbledore. But that's about it.
Blast - Nov 16, 2003 12:00 am (#35 of 2956)
Snape is one of those character that you love to hate. The reason that I like him is that he is an enigma. You know he has been evil, but something happened to him. Did he change or didn't he. JKR. has created a litterairy paradox here . Is Snape bad or good? I guess only time will tell. There is a deep hole in Snape, he dwells on too many bad things. He is kind of an opposite to Hagrid who for the most part sees good in things. I wonder if the wizarding world has healers for the sole. Maybe if there are, Snape should check into St. Mungos for a session. Could Snape learn to love? Only Gina knows for sure.
Gina R Snape - Nov 16, 2003 12:23 am (#36 of 2956)
You are too kind, Blast.
After OoP, though, I was wondering if there were mental health counselors in the wizarding world. Harry and Severus could do with a nice therapeutic chat or three.
Blast - Nov 16, 2003 8:26 pm (#37 of 2956)
Is Snape acting as Harry's conscience? He seems to be intent in making sure that Harry does not get away with very much.I've noticed that Harry seems to have a few similarities with Tom Riddle here. Is Snape trying so hard to get Harry in trouble because he sees some of Voldemorte in Harry? Does he want to keep Harry humble bacause he knows of Harry's destiny? In some ways Snape and Dumbledore seem to be playing good cop bad cop with Harry. There is obviously Snape's dislike of James but to me there is something eles there. Maybe Snape in his own special way will make a better person out of Harryin the long run.
Madame Librarian - Nov 16, 2003 8:46 pm (#38 of 2956)
Blast end, I like your comment that Snape and Dumbledore might be the "good cop, bad cop" for Harry.
In OoP we see Harry have negative emotions about Dumbledore, and when he's possessed by V., Harry experiences a hate so strong toward DD that he could kill him. So there you have someone Harry loves becoming someone Harry hates (at least temporarily). I wonder if in book 6 or 7, a similar flip-flop will happen with Harry's feelings toward Snape. It could be JKR's way of getting across the idea that love and hate are such powerful emotions, and they are not very far removed from each other.
Ciao. Barb
Fawkes Forever - Nov 17, 2003 3:58 am (#39 of 2956)
Grant the Great : Don't mean to change the subject, but I have a question for British residents. OK, Snape is called the "Potions Master" at least once. Is this the same thing as a regular teacher, or are there certain qualities one must have (ie. teaching for so many years) before they become a "master?" I was just wondering, because if you have to have studied so much of the subject to be a master, it really adds to the fact that he must really know his potions (and he probably, therefore, used them as a Death Eater).
Ok, so I'm not a British resident, but I grew up in the North of Ireland, where our Education system is identical to the UK, so I hope I'm qualified to answer this question!
The term Master, in respect to a school, is another name for a Teacher, or to be more specific, it's the name for a male teacher. As far as I know it's not related to experience in the job or knowledge of the subject, but more as a term of respect. It's sometimes used instead of 'Sir' by a pupil when addressing a male teacher, or can be used as a full title, e.g. referring to Prof Lupin & Prof Snape as Master Lupin & Master Snape!
It's sort of old fashioned really & probably goes back to the days of the old school teachers in the 19th & early 20th centurys, when one teacher usually taught the whole school in one classroom. In the case of a male teacher this meant that in effect he was the teacher & head master [principal] all in one!
Maybe you don't have that term in the US version of the books? Whenever a male teacher becomes the head-teacher /principal, they are refered to as being the Head Master, (or Head Mistress if female, however I've never heard female teachers refered to as Mistresses though )
Hope I explained myself properly, I'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well today.... sorry.
I could also be wrong? If anyone else knows different, or knows anything more on this subject, please feel free to enlighten us
Gina R Snape - Nov 17, 2003 9:43 am (#40 of 2956)
I've discussed this many times on various Snape groups and, yes, the concensus among fans seems to be that "Master" is an old fashioned term in the way you described it Fawkes. It might also be related to him being the 3rd in command after DD and McGonagall.
As for the good cop/bad cop idea. I concur completely. It has been my contention all along, from my first introduction to Snape, that he is practising a form of "tough love" as it were. Not that he feels love particularly for the child, but that he believes not letting Potter get away with things and not allowing him to be treated specially is in his best interest. He even says as much in GoF (or was it PoA? I forget...) when Fudge says "Well, you know, we let the Potter boy get away with things..." or something along those lines. And Snape says he strives to treat him the same as everyone else.
Little Ginny - Nov 17, 2003 12:12 pm (#41 of 2956)
I think as well that if Snape just hated Harry it would be far too easy.
I think that Snape is not nearly as bad as some people might think while first reading the book. I think what makes him so hateable is his pride (even more than Mr Darcy- if anyone knows Pride and Prejudice) and, of course, the dark secret from his past.
and I think there must be a really great secret in the past (even greater than just the DE thing) because I think I remember JKR once said that she needed to give Alan Rickman a lot of background information about Snape, and I think that JKR didn't want to answer questions about Snape's love life. Now, I don't want to begin theories whether he has ahd an affair with Mrs Weasley, or Lily Potter, or anyone else, but I think there are loads of things we don't know about old Snape.
timrew - Nov 17, 2003 4:44 pm (#42 of 2956)
There's something I've been thinking about for a while. We know that Snape was a Death Eater for a time; but then he came back into the fold and joined the Order Of The Phoenix as a spy in Voldemort's camp.
Why did he do this?
I've been wondering if he was at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort, and witnessed the murders of James and Lily, and the attempted murder of Harry.
Could he have been so sickened by this incident that he decided to leave the Death Eaters?
Could this be why he is so protective of Harry now, and not because of the James/Lupin incident? He expressed contempt to Harry about James having saved his life; and put it more down to James saving his own and Sirius' skin from becoming murderers.
Where was Snape on the night James and Lily were murdered? Am I opening another useful line of discussion, or am I completely wrong? Ideas?
Blast - Nov 17, 2003 5:15 pm (#43 of 2956)
Was not Snape already working as a spy when Lilly and James were murdered? In the pensieve does not Dumbledore say that Snape had already switched sides before Voldemort's downfall? He could of still gone with Voldemort but I think that he had already jumped ship before the murders.
Neville Longbottom - Nov 17, 2003 8:49 pm (#44 of 2956)
Dumbledore said that Snape changed sides before Voldemorts downfall. After the Godric's Hollow murders there was nothing he could have spied, because Voldemort was gone.
Gina R Snape - Nov 17, 2003 9:39 pm (#45 of 2956)
Tim, did you read my theory on Snape and the prophesy?
Neville is right about the timing. Snape switched sides before the night the Potters were murdered and Harry became The Boy Who Lived.
timrew - Nov 18, 2003 10:17 am (#46 of 2956)
Okay, I stand corrected!
mollis - Nov 18, 2003 11:48 am (#47 of 2956)
I am of the opinion that it may have been Snape who told DD that the Potters were being targeted by Voldemort. It goes along with the theory that Snape had a thing for Lily, something like this: Snape is a loyal DE that may have some doubts, but learns that Voldemort is going to kill the Potters (James, Lily, and Harry). Snape has had a crush on Lily or been in love with her and despite his hatred for James, switches sides and tells DD everything he knows in an effort to protect Lily. Maybe Snape is there the night Voldemort kills James and Lily and tries to kill Harry. And maybe he knows Lily didn't have to die, but did anyway to protect Harry. And maybe that's why Snape hates Harry so much: the woman he was in love with gave her life to save the life of the child she had with his mortal enemy. Snape remained loyal to DD because he could never support someone that liked his beloved Lily.
Yeah I know, way too many maybes. But is there any cannon to contradict this explanation?
SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 12:14 pm (#48 of 2956)
>It has been my contention all along, from my first introduction to Snape, that he is practising a form of "tough love" as it were. Not that he feels love particularly for the child, but that he believes not letting Potter get away with things and not allowing him to be treated specially is in his best interest.
We might as well contend that Umbridge really wasn't a vindictive witch out to get Harry and destroy Hogwarts. After all, didn't those dementors she sent after him allow him to practice defending himself in battlefield conditions? Tough love, but love all the same.
She also wanted to get rid of the two worst teachers in the school. Even Harry admits to himself that Hagrid isn't a good teacher, and who needs to be told the fake prophesy that they're going to die soon? Trelawney is an obvious sadist who shouldn't be teaching anything.
Umbridge (bless her) tried to impose order in a school that had four consecutive years of at least one extremely hazardous event taking place each year, and where a student finally did die the prior year. A school that had used an escaped DE from Azkaban as a teacher the prior year! And had allowed plagiarist imposter to teach two years before that.
She tried to protect the students from the danger of casting curses on each other in DADA. She monitored the floo network to try catching another dangerous escapee from Azkaban. She even wanted to have that vile and nasty poltergeist, Peeves, exorcized. Isn't that good?
Many of the things she did were unpopular with students and staff, and many seemed very unfair to those involved, but wasn't she just playing ?tough cop" and allowing herself to be unjustly hated for the greatest good of all involved? Can you imagine how much that must have hurt her, knowing everyone hated her for trying to save them?
Just like Snape who only "seems" dramatically unfair to Harry, but really only has Harry's best interest at heart?
And Filch. Doesn't he only want to teach the students to respect the rules and behave properly? Isn't that part of what they're at school for?
Isn't Peeves there to teach the students how to think fast in bad situations... which he only happens to be the one creating? Those lessons will come in handy someday.
Plus Fudge isn't really a power hungry duffer. He knew premature announcment of the return of Voldemort would create chaos. He wanted to protect the citizens from hurting each other. Of course he had to discredit Harry and Dumbledore, or how could he have maintained order? They both insisted on trying to create a panic in the Wizard world, and had to be stopped.
Gina R Snape: >>After OoP, though, I was wondering if there were mental health counselors in the wizarding world. Harry and Severus could do with a nice therapeutic chat or three.
I couldn't agree with you more.
SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 12:53 pm (#49 of 2956)
After re-reading my above post I realize that it probably came off as much too sarcastic, although it was meant to be humorous.
My only point was that sometimes characters really are what they seem to be, and we readers (myself included) can go too deep into trying to find hidden meanings and motivations. My method was jokingly defending characters that other people wouldn't be likely to want to defend.
I apologize to anyone that my original post may have offended. The "joke" obviously went too far.
Gina R Snape - Nov 18, 2003 2:12 pm (#50 of 2956)
SJRand, I am so glad you posted your second post before I ever got to read the first one. I was ready for a major argument!
But I will argue without malice (but with the familiar conviction and passion nonetheless that others here know of me...) the following points:
There are lines one should never cross. And I personally don't believe Snape has really crossed them. Come very very close? Sure. But he hasn't seriously attempted or actually inflicted bodily harm on Harry, he hasn't stopped him from learning, and hasn't denied him his rights. Umbridge did all of those things and then some.
I don't think Fudge was avoiding chaos with a premature announcement. I think--and I mean literally, clinically--that he was in genuine denial and experiencing acute paranoia.
Filch is a frustrated squib. Peeves I have no comment on. I honestly haven't spent much time thinking about him.
And unlike Umbridge, Fudge, Filch, or Peeves, Snape has gone out of his way in every single book, on some occasions risking mortal peril behind the scenes, to save and protect Harry's life.
So, these are my opinions.
And on an amusing side-note, Alan Rickman was interviewed on the Jimmy Kimmel show last week and a kid on the show said "Yes, you are evil" meaning Snape, and Alan responded, "What did I do? All I've ever done is try and save the boy's life!" Hee. Thought you all might find that entertaining.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 18, 2003 4:24 pm (#51 of 2956)
On the Petunia thread we were discussing the "doing the right thing, not just the easy thing" theme (to paraphrase Dumbledore's speech to Harry at the end of Oop), and I commented that Petunia embodies this idea most clearly. Gina added that Snape, too, does what's right in protecting Harry, but it is certainly not easy for him.
This got me thinking about a speech or quote from an interview I had come across by Martin Luther King, Jr. (not the "I Have Dream" speech). He talked about having to love our fellow man, and was asked how could he, a victim of violence and injustice, claim to love someone who would just as soon see King lynched as anything. King responded that he didn't have to like a person, particularly, he didn't have to agree, he could even despise this guy's opinions, but in loving him, he'd be recognizing the essential human-ness of his opponent, and this was an infinitely better solution than a hate which denied human-ness.
Now, I can see this applying perfectly to Snape's position. He recognizes Harry's human-ness, his value as a living person, his right to be alive and stay alive, and the need to protect him from forces that would like to do him in (after all, he's just an inexperienced kid). But, Snape makes no bones about it--he really dislikes Harry, and that's OK.
Until JKR reveals the whole story, I am of the Snape-is-on-the-good-side school of thought and say this to sum up: Snape is not evil. He's mean, but not evil.
Ciao. Barb
timrew - Nov 18, 2003 4:37 pm (#52 of 2956)
You've just put my opinion into words, Barb.
I can't see Snape turning out to be an evil Death Eater, despite all the hints we've had from JKR - or should I say, just the one hint!
What would be the point of the guy if he turned out to be evil? Why all the thoughts put into the Pensieve? Why his childhood memories? Why the (momentary) empathy with Harry during the Occlumency scene?
If Snape turns out to be evil, then he'd better do it in a spectacular way. He has been built up as a major character, and we need him to go down two possible paths....
Either as a major turncoat sidekick of Voldemort, or as a person who comes to (if not love) then respect Harry, and all that he has gone through.
S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 7:48 pm (#53 of 2956)
Tim: Either as a major turncoat sidekick of Voldemort, or as a person who comes to (if not love) then respect Harry, and all that he has gone through.
Frankly, Tim, I don't need him to love Harry, or even really, really respect him. I'd be happy with a "not bad, Potter" at the end....
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 18, 2003 8:31 pm (#54 of 2956)
Madame Librarian, I love this theory and can see how it applies to the Snape-Harry relationship. It also reminds me of a quote my huband uses to describe himself:
----------"I love humanity, it's people I can't stand".
Speaking of sarcasm, I too posted a few days ago and on re-reading, I may have come off far more sarcastic than I intended. My apologies to AndrewHunt if I did offend.
Weeny Owl - Nov 18, 2003 10:59 pm (#55 of 2956)
There is a huge difference between Snape and Filch, Umbridge, and Fudge.
Fudge was trying his best to hurt Harry regardless of his motives. Maybe he truly believed that Harry was nuts, but he was willing to ramrod his own verdict through during Harry's trial regardless of evidence.
Umbridge not only tortured Harry and other students with her quill, but she also tried to get Harry killed by sending Dementors after him. She was going to Crucio him. She was willing to allow Filch to use whips on students.
Filch was practically foaming at the mouth over the thought of finally being able to use said whips.
I said on an earlier post that if Snape truly hated Harry and wanted him to come to harm, he could very easily have arranged it so that Filch could have a go at Harry with those dreaded whips. Snape never did that. There are some lines he would never cross.
I'm not sure if I feel that it's tough love, but I do feel that Snape does not want anyone to fall prey to Voldie because of what he himself has experienced. It's one thing to take points from houses or to assign essays, but it's a totally different matter to cause someone physical harm. Aside from when Snape tossed Harry across the dungeon in anger over the Pensieve, he has never actually injured a student.
There are just too many ways Snape could cause physical harm to Harry if he really wanted to. Snape may completely and totally loathe Harry but he hasn't put his feelings into actions and I doubt if he will.
popkin - Nov 19, 2003 2:36 am (#56 of 2956)
SJ Rand [/b]- Nov 18, 2003 12:14 pm (#48 of 55) [Umbridge] also wanted to get rid of the two worst teachers in the school. Even Harry admits to himself that Hagrid isn't a good teacher...
Harry never admits that Hagrid isn't a good teacher. He admits that Grubbly Plank IS a good teacher.
SJ Rand - Nov 19, 2003 10:52 am (#57 of 2956)
Edited by S.E. Jones Nov 19, 2003 7:58 pm
Gina R Snape and Weeny Owl:
I wasn't actually defending those characters, just showing examples of how they could be defended if someone really wanted to do so.
In general:
Personally, I don't make much distinction between physical torture and mental torture. Sure, Snape doesn't physically hurt Harry, but mentally? Do I need to point out specific instances here, to other devout readers of the series?
"He's not evil, just mean." I think that depends on one's definition of "evil". Purposely causing suffering for it's own sake fits into my definition of evil quite well. He's a sadist, even if he only uses words.
It's a great philosophical exercise to try showing how Snape really isn't as bad as most people perceive him to be. That's why I defended all those other characters; to point this out. But everything in the books points to Snape being a malicious git, who delights in causing pain and even chaos every chance he gets.
He can't or won't control his emotions >>"Aside from when Snape tossed Harry across the dungeon in anger over the Pensieve, he has never actually injured a student.", and aside from creating chaos and dissension in the Order by relentlessly tormenting Sirius for something he had no control over.
Hey, sure, he's mad at Sirius. He has a right to be. But Sirius got to spend (how many?) years being tortured in Azkaban for something he didn't do, and has had to keep in hiding ever since.
Snape knows no moderation and knows nothing of extenuation. This is the person who was a former Death Eater and received a second chance from Dumbledore when he repented. So it's okay for him to have done vile things in the past, and be forgiven, but he can't forgive anybody else, not even the blameless son of one who tormented him?
Unless he grows up soon, and deigns to treat others with at least a shadow of the same courtesy he himself received,. the Order doesn't need this clown. Throw him back to the Death Eaters where he belongs.
Lisaren - Nov 19, 2003 11:15 am (#58 of 2956)
SJ Rand you have summed up my sentiments on Snape quite effectively. I could do no better.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 19, 2003 2:05 pm (#59 of 2956)
Ok, I am not one of those people who believes that Snape is using tough love or anything like that, and I am one of the first people to say that he is immature, spiteful, and the rest. However "Unless he grows up soon, and deigns to treat others with at least a shadow of the same courtesy he himself received,. the Order doesn't need this clown. Throw him back to the Death Eaters where he belongs." They kind off do need him. He is an invaluable spy for the order, and I am sure he has done some great things for the cause. Yes, mental torture is worse than physical torture; however, Snape does not mentally torture his students. He is a mean bully, but I am sure that is the immpression that most of his students have of him. I doubt that any of them will need to go to counseling in 15 years because of what he said their potions were bad. The worst affect he has had on his students seems to be on Neville; however, once again reacts to him like a person reacts to a bully. I do not think Neville needs, or will need counselling because of Snape.
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 3:00 pm (#60 of 2956)
"I see no difference". His remark when Hermione's teeth grew to enormous size.
His destroying of Harry's potion (after the Pensieve incident), which lost Harry exam points.
His threat to kill Nevilles toad, if Neville's potion is not made up correctly when Snape feeds it to Trevor.....
Sometimes I think this guy is going to redeem himself - but at times like this, I think he's behaving like a vindictive five year old.
And IMHO, He does mentally torture his students! At least, certain ones.....
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 3:27 pm (#61 of 2956)
We are shown a side of Snape that is not the least bit attractive but that can have other interpretations.
I think Snape is no worse than many teachers or other authority figures in many ways, but we're seeing him at his worst when he's dealing with specific students.
I think he knew very well Hermione had helped Neville with the potion and that there was no chance Trevor would be poisoned.
His comment to Hermione about her teeth was horrid, yes, but if this weren't the nasty Snape we see so much of, it could be attributed to PMS (potion master syndrome ). It did get her up to the hospital wing where she ended up doing something she'd wanted to do for a while about her teeth. She can now thumb her nose (or teeth) at Snape.
Harry is a different matter entirely, and I agree that there is no excuse for Snape to destroy Harry's potions and give him zeros.
I don't think Snape is as bad as he seems or as good as he might be, but I do think he's walking a very fine line as a spy and that that line might make him much less tolerable than he might be otherwise.
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 3:37 pm (#62 of 2956)
"I think he knew very well Hermione had helped Neville with the potion and that there was no chance Trevor would be poisoned."
Weeny, but did Neville know this? I don't think so.
And whatever his reasons, or excuses put forward on his behalf, what he said to Hermione was unforgiveable for a teacher to say to a pupil.
Whichever way you look at it, it's mental torture, IMHO.....
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 4:25 pm (#63 of 2956)
Well, I know I will be completely alone in this, but I don't mind playing devil's advocate. I thought the "I see no difference" comment was extremely catty and kind of funny. There's no way, under any circumstance, that Snape would ever be able to show sympathy to Hermione. I think, if anything, Snape chose at that moment not to treat Hermione as a child. She acts like such a 'know-it-all' that he doesn't mollycoddle her. Sure it made her cry, but he didn't take points when she exploded and ran off to the infirmary.
My brothers (who are 7 and 10 years older than I) used to make me cry all the time until I figured out how not to play into their games. And now as an adult I feel much more prepared not to be easily manipulated by people. So, to compare with Snape, I, er, see no difference.
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 4:35 pm (#64 of 2956)
Mental torture, tim?
Well, as you so often say, nobody's perfect
It may very well be torture, but it's also showing us that Snape is undergoing his own stressful moments and lost it. He's been feeling the Dark Mark for a while, he's come upon a group of students dueling, and he lost his patience and said something nasty.
Good point about Neville not knowing, though. I think there's more to his treatment of Neville than exasperation due to burnt cauldrons.
I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
Hem Hem - Nov 19, 2003 4:41 pm (#65 of 2956)
Snape has to treat Harry and co. miserably, because if he didn't, Malfoy would go complaining to his father about it. Now, that doesn't mean that if Snape didn't have to watch his back, he's be giving them candy, but he does have to be aware of keeping his cover at all times. The Snape that we see is never the whole Snape....
SJ Rand - Nov 19, 2003 4:47 pm (#66 of 2956)
Timrew: >>And whatever his reasons, or excuses put forward on his behalf, what he said to Hermione was unforgivable for a teacher to say to a pupil.
I agree one hundred percent. Also with your mention of the threat of poisoning Neville's toad. By the way, Neville's potion was still a mess despite Hermione's attempts to help him set it straight.
Tpujiko4444: >>He is an invaluable spy for the order, and I am sure he has done some great things for the cause.
A spy might be very desirable, but a spy who was a former DE, hates the Order's most valuable (non) member, hates another member (Lupin), and seems psychologically unstable is a bigger risk than I would take.
I'll pull back a bit on what I said earlier though. I think Dumbledore should metaphorically slap the guy around a bit and remind him of his place in the world. A reminder that Harry is not James wouldn't hurt either.
I don't think that Snape is absolutely unredeemable, but I'm sure that he needs someone to change his behavior, because he's not going to do it on his own. If he were, he'd have mellowed when Quirrell tried to kill Harry, or when he saw that Harry's life had been as miserable as Snape's.
Weeny Owl: >>I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
Why does there have to be? I won't dismiss that there might be, but I don't understand the requirement for there to be.
Um, okay let me toss this one at you? Most seem to agree that Harry and Neville get the worst of Snape. Neville messes up all the time, Harry only some of the time, so what else do they have in common?
Harry and Neville were both candidates to be the one named in the Phophesy.
Hail Snape, the Once and Future Death Eater?
Changing subjects:
Has anyone come up with any good ideas about why Snape doesn't get the DADA position?
Too good at Potions to lose there? Too dangerous around students to trust hurling curses at them? It can't be a question of teaching quality, because Quirrell was a joke at teaching it (intentionally, but nobody knew that).
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 4:52 pm (#67 of 2956)
SJ Rand, the question about Snape not getting the DADA job was discussed at length in the Severus Snape #1 thread.
I can tell you, though, that during the Albert Finney Hall interview, JKR said Dumbledore is afraid the DADA position would bring out the worst in him. Blast end newt also came up on this thread with what I thought was a brilliant idea--a management ploy on Dumbledore's part. Namely, that Snape is a proud man, and would go above and beyond in his role as Potions Master to prove himself in the absence of being given what he truly wants. Kind of a motivational AND keep him in his place tactic in one.
Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 6:00 pm (#68 of 2956)
You can argue about whether or not Snape is horrid to the children all day and all night basically, and you will always have people say yes and you will always have people say no (and of course you will have some who say Yes, BUT...) However, as a literary device he is quite desirable- on one level every school needs a teacher to despise and Snape fills those shoes nicely. He also fills the shoes of how you would expect a former-death-eater-turned-good to act, as well.
Realistically, would the story be as believable if Snape- a man we know to have a troubled past and a man we know to have been connected to the darkest wizard of an age, walked around as Mary-Sunshine, towing the line and never stepping out of place and crying into his butterbeer about his previous immoral acts?! He'd be boring, if you ask me and I'm not sure people would care about him as much (either hating or liking)
Within this story JKR has set it up that Snape's actions and motivations are not what they seem. And yet she has also made it quite clear that Snape is not just 'playing' a role, either. He is a complicated man, our Mr. Snape, and to dismiss him as evil and to send him back to the DE's as it were, is an injustice to the wonderful charactization she has given him. He is not all bad. He is not all good. No one in this story is, honestly (except maybe Voldemort and even he may have a saving grace). But with Snape it is more pronounced- we have the examples of his cruelty and we have examples of his ability to do the right thing. We also have Dumbledore's trust in the man, which is definitely NOT something to disregard.
Snape is the way he is- all shadow and gray areas- because that is the way his creator made him. JKR knows what she's doing with this guy, no doubt about it. When she sets it up so that it is SNAPE who saves Harry in book one, there's a reason. When she shows us a memory that involves Harry's father and Snape's utter embarrassment and calls it 'Snape's Worse Memory' and *doesn't* show us something from his Death Eater days, there is a reason. It is too easy to dismiss Snape as evil and let it lie at that . JKR has been telling us this for awhile now and I think her characterization of Snape shows it best- there is not just black and white, good versus evil type of people. There are some you can dislike and still fight on the same side with. There are some who appear one way and act like another. There are those individuals who you would believe would never save you and yet, in complete contrast to their personality, they do. This is what she is trying to teach Harry and Snape is a prime example of that. And he's (she's) bloody brilliant at it.
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 6:28 pm (#69 of 2956)
Way to go, Sly Girl! And JKR, of course...
S.E. Jones - Nov 19, 2003 8:14 pm (#70 of 2956)
Ah, Sly, thank you. Your posts are always so insightful and intriguing, no wonder I look for to them..!
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 8:32 pm (#71 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
SJ: Why does there have to be? I won't dismiss that there might be, but I don't understand the requirement for there to be.
The requirement is simply because JKR has made Snape more than a one-dimensional character. His motivations would be much too simplistic if they were to be a result ONLY of hating someone's father and annoyance with a student. The feelings about James and the frustration with Neville's lack of potion-making skills are the obvious, but with Snape, there is rarely only what is seen on the surface.
Sly: Snape is the way he is- all shadow and gray areas- because that is the way his creator made him. JKR knows what she's doing with this guy, no doubt about it.
Oh, yes indeed she does, and you have such a unique way with words. Your explanations are much better than anything I could say.
Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 8:34 pm (#72 of 2956)
Blush* Oh stop it. My thanks. I'm sure others will disagree.
timrew - Nov 20, 2003 10:45 am (#73 of 2956)
I might not like some of Snape's characteristics, Sly; but I think he's damn interesting and would have him no other way.
The day he becomes, 'Mary Sunshine' is the day I stop reading the books!
SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 11:26 am (#74 of 2956)
Sly Girl: >>Realistically, would the story be as believable if Snape- a man we know to have a troubled past and a man we know to have been connected to the darkest wizard of an age, walked around as Mary-Sunshine...
No, not at all.
He could walk around like McGonagall though. Tough as nails, a bit of favoritism towards "her" house, often sarcastic, and sometimes unreasonable, but not a caricature of a Dickens Orphan School headmaster.
>We also have Dumbledore's trust in the man, which is definitely NOT something to disregard.
Before OotP, I couldn't possibly argue that point. However by OotP's end, Dumbledore has made too many mistakes. He's just a mortal, and mortals sometimes slip up.
He trusted Snape to want, and be able, to teach Occlumency to Harry. He trusted Harry to want to learn it just from having been told he should. He trusted that he didn't need to tell Harry what the Prophesy was yet. He trusted "Mad Eye Moody" as impersonated by Crouch. He trusted Quirrell. He allowed, by failure of action, the MoM to place their "teacher" in his school knowing full well the climate of overt hostility towards him, Harry, and Hogwarts, within the Ministry.
Snape could well have fully reformed, but if he slid back to his former alliance would Dumbledore notice? Quirrell only had a turban hiding Voldemort. DD never noticed. Given Snape's usual behavior, how would anyone notice if he was no longer just a man with an evil temperament, but once again an evil man?
>JKR has been telling us this for awhile now ...
Please don't take offense, but I have no interest in what Rowling says in interviews any more than I'll listen to a poet explain what his verse really meant. Either the text does the job or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the text needs to be changed, not explained.
It's very common for faithful fans to quote what writers say in interviews. I'm just a very old school, hard nosed, critic. No matter how much I like the artist, the art must speak for itself.
Weeny Owl: >>The requirement is simply because JKR has made Snape more than a one-dimensional character. His motivations would be much too simplistic if they were to be a result ONLY of hating someone's father and annoyance with a student.
But those are the only motivations we're seeing in print. As written, Snape is a one dimensional character who is present only to provide misery to those around him. His decision to save Harry's life in PS/SS hints at a more developed character, but Dumbledore explains that away at the end. The only extra information we have now is why he hates James, but James has been dead for fourteen years.
There might well end up being far more to Snape than what we've read, but from what we've read so far there's very little to him.
I hope that by the next book Rowling either does something with Snape or just pushes him into the background. Harry and company have more than enough problems without keeping Snape and his petty punishments front and center if he doesn't have something else to contribute.
In PS/SS and CoS he was the evil one, there to make Harry's new life less sublime. A good counterpoint.
By PoA there was more than enough evil to go around, and Snape's role became redundant. By OotP there was so much evil and misery that he was just a waste of space.
timrew - Nov 20, 2003 3:36 pm (#75 of 2956)
I think Snape was beginning to be more interesting in OOP. There was the bit with Harry in the Occlumency chapter, where he seemed to realise that Harry had not had a privileged and pampered upbringing.
He seemed to be on the verge of establishing some form of 'contact' between them, until Harry made a complete mess of things by prying into Snape's memories in the Pensieve.
I honestly think there is a lot more to learn about Snape yet. Okay, JKR is taking things at her own pace; but there could well be a reason for this. We'll just have to wait for Book 6, or even Book 7 to find out.
Sly Girl - Nov 20, 2003 4:18 pm (#76 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 20, 2003 6:02 pm
He could walk around like McGonagall though. Tough as nails, a bit of favoritism towards "her" house, often sarcastic, and sometimes unreasonable, but not a caricature of a Dickens Orphan School headmaster.
But McGonagall is already McGonagall and for the purpose of a literary story, the character of Snape is such that it shows the difference of two approaches. Personal wise- McGonagall also does not have the dark past that Snape does. Or if she does, we have not been made aware of it as we have with Snape.
Please don't take offense, but I have no interest in what Rowling says in interviews any more than I'll listen to a poet explain what his verse really meant. Either the text does the job or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the text needs to be changed, not explained.
It's very common for faithful fans to quote what writers say in interviews. I'm just a very old school, hard nosed, critic. No matter how much I like the artist, the art must speak for itself.
Actually, I do take offense because you have basically just said that my reasoning is based on non-story (ie non canon)information and is therefore invalid to you. The humorous thing is, is I wasn't even referring to JKR interviews or what she has said elsewhere. I meant what she has told us within her own text. She has set the stories up so that Harry recognizes that not everyone is as good as he thinks and not everyone is as bad as he thinks either. She even has a character state- "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." (American Edition, page 302) This is the process in which Harry needs to grow up and I do believe that JKR has SHOWN us this in her WRITING, not her outside comments.
However, please do not condescend to others if they do happen to 'quote' JKR about her own work. There are some people who do like to know outside information and actually believe it furthers their understanding and enjoyment. It is part of the nature of writing- it is an act of communication, after all- that people will wonder what the creator of certain works, thinks. Your way of being a hard nose critic is no better than others.
SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 5:34 pm (#77 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 20, 2003 6:07 pm
Sly Girl: >>But McGonagall is already McGonagall and for the purpose of a literary story, the character of Snape is such that it shows the difference of two approaches
You're right, and I should have seen that coming.
I didn't mean that he should be a carbon copy, just a tougher and more snide version of her.
When I went to school we had several teachers that were somewhere between McGonagall and Snape. We even had one who liked to bounce bits of chalk off the heads of students who nodded off during his class (he taught algebra, so it wasn't uncommon).
Even the chalk hurler, though, never snatched a page of poorly done calculations off a student's desk, destroyed the work, and crowed "No Marks!!! HeHeHe! 500 points from...", um, well we had nothing to take points from, but you get the idea.
The contradiction on this board right now it that people are defending Harry's and some other characters' actions with post after post about how Rowling is showing "real teenage behavior", while at the same time others, sometimes the same ones, are defending the drastically over the top behavior of Snape.
He had a tough life. James was jerk to him and Harry looks like James. He was with the evil crowd and converted.
>The humorous thing is, is I wasn't even referring to JKR interviews or what she has said elsewhere. I meant what she has told us within her own text.
I apologize for that stupid mistake. I've been in so many book discussion groups that when I see ""Author" told us" type phrases I automatically figure what follows is from an interview, and my brain shuts down. Sorry!
Denise P. - Nov 20, 2003 6:09 pm (#78 of 2956)
This is a discussion of Snape. Get it back on track please.
Christina is correct in saying people feel that they are being talked down to if they refer to an interview. On this Forum, JKR interviews are accepted as canon. An individual can decide if they accept it or not but that doesn't mean it is acceptable to ridicule those who do.
MTW - Nov 20, 2003 7:20 pm (#79 of 2956)
When I first read Snape's worst memory. I had some problems with the amount of detail that it contained. The conversations between the Marauders. Also how could Snape know James was writing L.E. on his paper made me doubt the details in it as truth. On the second reading , I though if Snape did hear some of the conversations it would explain his curiosity that almost got him killed. Lupin talking about the five signs of a werewolf.
One : He's sitting in my chair. Two: He's wearing my clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin... OotP p643 American
Snape hearing this would consider this be a gold mine. A chance to strike back at his tormentors. But I reason that Snape heard parts of the conversation. Only after his near death with Lupin did his mind put together and filled in the blanks. But the L.E. still remained. A torn in my mind irating me.
The answer is in the book. Harry is looking at the back of Parvati Patils head and thought : if only he could preform Legilimency and open a window in the back of her head and see what it was about trolls that cause the breach between Pierre Bonaccord and Liechtenstein... p726 OotP American
Then the answer poped into his head.
Could Snape have been doing the same thing . Looking at back of James head to figure out what he was doing. Then the answer poped into my head. Snape was spying on the Marauders. The moment Snape finished his test in DADA. Harry attention saw the back of James head. Harry moves toward James, but the text mentions....Instead he seemed to slide, dreamlike, across two aisles and up a third. The back of the black-haired boy's head drew nearer and nearer.... p641 OotP American
What Harry didn't realize the reason of this moment was not only being fueled by his desire to see James, but also Snape was put his full attention on James. Thus achieving the full detail of the memory.
S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 8:07 pm (#80 of 2956)
Even the chalk hurler, though, never snatched a page of poorly done calculations off a student's desk, destroyed the work, and crowed "No Marks!!! HeHeHe! 500 points from...", um, well we had nothing to take points from, but you get the idea.
But you don't live in a fictional world where characters must serve a literary purpose. Harry and Snape do. Snape must be the way he is the serve the purpose he does. He must be cruel and calculating and layered or he doesn't make for a very good literary device and thus can't forward the plot any. This is a story with a very determined outline and flow, in which everything has a purpose and a place in the scheme of things.
Weeny Owl - Nov 20, 2003 8:20 pm (#81 of 2956)
SJ - "But those are the only motivations we're seeing in print. As written, Snape is a one dimensional character who is present only to provide misery to those around him. His decision to save Harry's life in PS/SS hints at a more developed character, but Dumbledore explains that away at the end. The only extra information we have now is why he hates James, but James has been dead for fourteen years"
We have more information than that, really. We know he's a reformed Death Eater, we know that he's not only an excellent Potion Master but also skilled in a rather obscure branch of magic, and we know that he knows much more than he's giving away.
The Occlumency lessons have quite a few hints as to what might actually be going on with him. He has to be very careful of what he sys and to whom he says it because he is putting his life on the line for the Order.
I'm not saying he's a fluffy bunny rabbit or will ever be one, but from the first book, we've been shown that in his case, appearances can be very deceptive.
Tomoé - Nov 20, 2003 8:34 pm (#82 of 2956)
The History of magic's OWL incident have made me wonder. Was Harry reading Parvati's mine, Hermione's (he remembered the image of the pages that she write), the waps's (that could be an DD ^_^ , I don't trust that one too much) or Voldemort's ? If he was reading Voldie's, I'm pretty sure that Snape couldn't read James's memories like that. If he was reading Parvati's or Hermione's, Snape could have look in the marauders's head.
Could Voldemort remember that kind of stuff after so many years, no wonder he may be the must brilliant student in Hogwarts ever.
Caput Draconis - Nov 21, 2003 4:46 am (#83 of 2956)
Edited by Nov 21, 2003 4:47 am
Ah, nothing feeds the soul like reading 700 consecutive Snape posts - I feel so clean...
I love the whole concept of Legilimancy/Occlumancy, especially because what Snape teaches seems to reflect his complex (definitely complex, btw) nature. Potions displays his mastery of process, his knowledge, skill and patience at creating that which will bewitch and ensnare. Leg/Occ is a different kind of skill, but requires a similar concentration ? but here I think we also understand that he has real power, the kind of pure magical force that potions has never really allowed us to see. They?re both such individual arts, and ones that only enhance his loneliness, for me. But there again, it is an immensely intimate thing to have access to the deepest workings of the mind. And to assign that power to Severus ? it?s almost painful to think of a man who seems to have had so little true human contact experiencing the most personal moments of another?s life?
Anyway, I just think JKR couldn?t have picked more appropriate arts for Snape. I?ve always thought it interesting that the pensieve is like a potion of thoughts ? Severus has some mastery of both ? yet his weakness lies in the memory, regret and bitterness that has bewitched his mind.
I?ve no idea how anyone could find him one dimensional. Maybe I?m just a sucker for a dark soul redeemed, especially one with that undefinable element of?something. The X factor.
And oh, from weeks ago: "What did I do? All I've ever done is try and save the boy's life!" Great AR moment!
popkin - Nov 21, 2003 8:51 am (#84 of 2956)
MTW, those were excellent thoughts on how Snape could have known that James had doodled L.E. on his exam paper. Snape could very well have been using Legilimens during his worst memory - otherwise why would Harry have slipped into position to see the back of James' head when in every other movement through a memory in the pensieve he has run to keep up with the characters he was watching?
However, I don't think Snape personally witnessed all the details of the memory. He seems to be oblivious to the marauders during most of the beginning scenes. I think the pensieve fills in the details. It is magic, afterall.
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 9:10 am (#85 of 2956)
I agree, Popkin. My take on it is that it is a medical fact that we all experience a phenomenon where the brain filters things out so we don't suffer from sensory overload. Literally, we hear and see more than we can cope with, and so the brain chooses what we notice, storing the rest unbeknownst to our conscious selves. I suspect that when a memory is put into a Pensieve, some of this stuff our conscious mind filtered out is still included in the regurgitated memory. Hence, Harry being able to see and experience so much in the memory.
Caput, I love it! Only you and I and a select few could read this entire Snape thread and feel "clean" afterwards. LOL.
And now that you mention it, being an Occlumens and Legilimens does make Snape more isolated in a way. I'd like to hear your and others' thoughts on this more thoroughly. It's a fascinating angle I hadn't thought of before.
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 11:26 am (#86 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 21, 2003 1:16 pm
S.E. Jones: >>But you don't live in a fictional world where characters must serve a literary purpose. Harry and Snape do. Snape must be the way he is the serve the purpose he does.
You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that he's filled that purpose for five books now, and his need in that capacity is gone. I'm not simply saying Rowling should get Snape out of the series. I'm saying that she should either advance, or grow, the character beyond what we've seen since PS/SS or put him on the back burner. I'd be equally happy with either one.
Weeny Owl: >>We have more information than that, really. We know he's a reformed Death Eater, we know that he's not only an excellent Potion Master but also skilled in a rather obscure branch of magic, and we know that he knows much more than he's giving away.
Playing devil's advocate here, but don't we know even more about Fudge, a minor character? We even know pretty well as much about Crouch Senior and Bagman, who were one book characters used only to help set up other events.
>I'm not saying he's a fluffy bunny rabbit or will ever be one but from the first book, we've been shown that in his case, appearances can be very deceptive
Nice turn of phrase there with the bunny thing.
I don't see that they are deceptive. He saved Harry's life in PS/SS, and he's a spy for the Order, but that doesn't mean he isn't evil, or at least vile, in his own right.
We still don't know why he left Voldemort either. It could be that, as folks here have suggested, Voldemort went too far and Snape couldn't take it anymore. It could also be that Voldemort wouldn't give him as high a position among the DEs as Snape thought he deserved.
I'd enjoy an in depth look at Snape that wasn't nasty remarks and unjust punishments. The Pensieve memory was more about James than about Snape, even with the insight it provided.
Edit SJ, if you continue to post on an issue that is over, you will be placed on moderated status. If you have a question on my editing, the reasons for it and why this post was edited, the correct place to address them would be via email, not on the Forum. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 11:40 am (#87 of 2956)
SJ Rand, if you are suggesting that there be more Snape in the next two books in order to further expand and clarify his character...I am All For That!!!
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 11:47 am (#88 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: Yes, that's what I'm saying. We know the punishments part by heart now, so let's get on to the good stuff. Or maybe I should have said "other stuff" rather than "good".
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 11:57 am (#89 of 2956)
Heh, heh. Speaking as someone who wouldn't mind doing detention with Snape, I'd say it's all good stuff. Let's have the harsh Potions Master and the intriguing backstory, and his motivations, and so on and so forth...
Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 2:02 pm (#90 of 2956)
::kicking Gina out of the way:: Detention with Snape would be so interesting.
I would also like to see more of him in the remaining books. The Pensieve scene just whetted my appetite for finding out more about him and his family history and all the whys and wherefores of what made him reform.
I do feel, though, that Snape wouldn't be trusted by Dumbledore simply because Voldie wouldn't give him a higher position within the Death Eaters' inner circle. While Dumbledore is great on second chances, I think there would have to be something indicative of a change of heart for a true second chance.
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 2:06 pm (#91 of 2956)
Cute smilies, Weeny. But there's no reason why we couldn't both serve detention. Then again, if we fight over it, he might give us even more detention with him. Hee hee.
Dumbledore mentions that Snape did something which put himself in great danger. It is that crucial bit of information I am waiting to find out, and which I think lies at the crux of why Dumbledore implicitly and explicity trusts our Severus.
Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 2:14 pm (#92 of 2956)
Gina:
I could see him giving us more detentions if we fight over it!
Dumbledore did mention that Snape had turned spy at a great personal risk. That sounds as if something truly major happened.
I have wondered about something, and I'm not sure JKR would ever think it anything worthy of mention, but when Snape stopped Harry from cursing Draco and was going to remove points, he said something to the effect of, "...then we'll just have to..." That's when McGonagall said, "Add some more?" What could Snape do besides take away points? A detention, maybe?
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 2:54 pm (#93 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I do feel, though, that Snape wouldn't be trusted by Dumbledore simply because Voldie wouldn't give him a higher position within the Death Eaters' inner circle.
I don't remember reading that Dumbledore knew the exact reason Snape left. Do you remember where it's mentioned? I'll be re-reading the series, but probably not until next week.
Blast - Nov 22, 2003 9:17 am (#94 of 2956)
Dumbledore tells Harry that what made Snape change sides is between the two of them. This is after Harry sees what happened in DD's pensieve. Ladies don't forget that Filch seems to be in charge of most detentions.
SJ Rand - Nov 22, 2003 11:14 am (#95 of 2956)
Ah, okay I found it. Last page of chapter thirty in GoF. Thank you, Blast end newt.
Weeny Owl, sorry I forgot about that part of the conversation. You're right of course.
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 12:24 am (#96 of 2956)
Gina wrote>> And now that you mention it, being an Occlumens and Legilimens does make Snape more isolated in a way.<<
It would! Being able to see/feel the darkest thoughts of human nature would make a depressing existence. If anyone has seen or read "The Green Mile", by Stephen King, John Coffey, about to be executed for a murder he didn't commit has the ability to "see" the truth, "hear" people's thoughts... and he tells the prison wardens (who have befriended him) that he *wants* to die. It is painful for him to hear the lower aspects of the human mind relentlessly, and longs to be released from the burden.
Back to occlumency/legilimancy... I would probably avoid people if I had the ability to see what they *really* thought when they were smiling and agreeing with me! <grin> Even if it was an ability which could be *not* used all the time, the temptation would be there to peek. And most people probably wouldn't like what was really in the minds of others... Then, those being "read" wouldn't like it either, and would perhaps withdraw further.
So, in addition to his Spying Game (in which he would undoubtedly have to hide *so* much of himself - Does anyone know the *real* Snape? I hardly think so, apart from perhaps DD. IS there any such thing anymore as the *real* Snape or has he been lost in the game of Spy?), we have someone with the potential to know exactly how people feel about him (usually not positive). I can see his behaviour as stemming from this. If you treat an animal badly, it will eventually repay you by behaving badly.
Nox (joing Gina and Weeny Owl in the fight for detention with Snape... I'll be the one kicking over cauldrons and setting the dungeon alight. "Do I get detention *now* sir?")
Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 9:44 am (#97 of 2956)
Welcome to the Detention Club, Nox! I do like what you've said about our Severus... especially the part about whether or not there is a real Snape any longer.
I can see similarities between Harry and him because of how self-contained they both are. We know what Harry is thinking and feeling, but he doesn't let it show with others. Even his best friends aren't always sure of what he's feeling.
Snape is even more of a loner than Harry, I would think. He really can't let anyone become too close because of his work as a spy.
I do hope JKR lets him live at the end and that we see him happy, or as happy as he can ever be, in his later years.
SJ Rand - Nov 23, 2003 10:49 am (#98 of 2956)
Nox NotteTorrente: >>Being able to see/feel the darkest thoughts of human nature would make a depressing existence. If anyone has seen or read "The Green Mile", by Stephen King, John Coffey...
Yes, I'm a horror fan so I've read all of King's books. The difference between Coffey's left handed gift from god and Legilimency is, I think, Legilimency is exercised by choice.
I don't believe they're true telepaths or empaths, who can't block out what others are thinking, but instead have the ability to intentionally push into a person's mind when they want to. Sort of like how we read a book, or look through someone's window.
Since you mentioned King, I'll offer one of his favorite sayings: "Peek not through keyholes, lest ye be vexed." Legimens peek.
Gina R Snape - Nov 23, 2003 11:12 am (#99 of 2956)
Interesting, SJ Rand.
Legilimens do more than peek, I think. They probe and seek out thoughts and feelings to extract and interpret. They can dig around, as opposed to just hear what you happen to be thinking at that moment. Of course, I think an Occlumens can control what the Legilimens finds. Either by blocking actual memories or manipulating the feelings attached to them.
I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others). It must take a tremendous amount of pressure to calm the mind and protect it from intrusion. He might be the type to always stand guard in case of such an intrusion. I find that incredibly sad and lonely.
Living that kind of life, the only safe emotions would be anger and annoyance. Showing any kind of affection, comradarie, or being relaxed and playful would open himself and the one(s) he's relaxed around to vulnerabilities. Which is why I think he can play around sportingly with McGonagall--she's one of the few who he has no fear can protect herself (plus, I do think they have a genuine co-worker friendship).
Oh, and I'm officially dubbing myself Founder of the Detention with Snape! club.
Killian - Nov 23, 2003 12:11 pm (#100 of 2956)
"Legilimens do more than peek, I think. They probe and seek out thoughts and feelings to extract and interpret. They can dig around, as opposed to just hear what you happen to be thinking at that moment. Of course, I think an Occlumens can control what the Legilimens finds. Either by blocking actual memories or manipulating the feelings attached to them."
I think that's the difference that Snape was trying to explain to Harry in OotP. A person who can read a person's mind only sees what's on the surface, whereas someone trained in Legilimens can bring up memories and thoughts, as well as the emotions attatched to them, that a person may not even recall having.
On the Petunia thread we were discussing the "doing the right thing, not just the easy thing" theme (to paraphrase Dumbledore's speech to Harry at the end of Oop), and I commented that Petunia embodies this idea most clearly. Gina added that Snape, too, does what's right in protecting Harry, but it is certainly not easy for him.
This got me thinking about a speech or quote from an interview I had come across by Martin Luther King, Jr. (not the "I Have Dream" speech). He talked about having to love our fellow man, and was asked how could he, a victim of violence and injustice, claim to love someone who would just as soon see King lynched as anything. King responded that he didn't have to like a person, particularly, he didn't have to agree, he could even despise this guy's opinions, but in loving him, he'd be recognizing the essential human-ness of his opponent, and this was an infinitely better solution than a hate which denied human-ness.
Now, I can see this applying perfectly to Snape's position. He recognizes Harry's human-ness, his value as a living person, his right to be alive and stay alive, and the need to protect him from forces that would like to do him in (after all, he's just an inexperienced kid). But, Snape makes no bones about it--he really dislikes Harry, and that's OK.
Until JKR reveals the whole story, I am of the Snape-is-on-the-good-side school of thought and say this to sum up: Snape is not evil. He's mean, but not evil.
Ciao. Barb
timrew - Nov 18, 2003 4:37 pm (#52 of 2956)
You've just put my opinion into words, Barb.
I can't see Snape turning out to be an evil Death Eater, despite all the hints we've had from JKR - or should I say, just the one hint!
What would be the point of the guy if he turned out to be evil? Why all the thoughts put into the Pensieve? Why his childhood memories? Why the (momentary) empathy with Harry during the Occlumency scene?
If Snape turns out to be evil, then he'd better do it in a spectacular way. He has been built up as a major character, and we need him to go down two possible paths....
Either as a major turncoat sidekick of Voldemort, or as a person who comes to (if not love) then respect Harry, and all that he has gone through.
S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 7:48 pm (#53 of 2956)
Tim: Either as a major turncoat sidekick of Voldemort, or as a person who comes to (if not love) then respect Harry, and all that he has gone through.
Frankly, Tim, I don't need him to love Harry, or even really, really respect him. I'd be happy with a "not bad, Potter" at the end....
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 18, 2003 8:31 pm (#54 of 2956)
Madame Librarian, I love this theory and can see how it applies to the Snape-Harry relationship. It also reminds me of a quote my huband uses to describe himself:
----------"I love humanity, it's people I can't stand".
Speaking of sarcasm, I too posted a few days ago and on re-reading, I may have come off far more sarcastic than I intended. My apologies to AndrewHunt if I did offend.
Weeny Owl - Nov 18, 2003 10:59 pm (#55 of 2956)
There is a huge difference between Snape and Filch, Umbridge, and Fudge.
Fudge was trying his best to hurt Harry regardless of his motives. Maybe he truly believed that Harry was nuts, but he was willing to ramrod his own verdict through during Harry's trial regardless of evidence.
Umbridge not only tortured Harry and other students with her quill, but she also tried to get Harry killed by sending Dementors after him. She was going to Crucio him. She was willing to allow Filch to use whips on students.
Filch was practically foaming at the mouth over the thought of finally being able to use said whips.
I said on an earlier post that if Snape truly hated Harry and wanted him to come to harm, he could very easily have arranged it so that Filch could have a go at Harry with those dreaded whips. Snape never did that. There are some lines he would never cross.
I'm not sure if I feel that it's tough love, but I do feel that Snape does not want anyone to fall prey to Voldie because of what he himself has experienced. It's one thing to take points from houses or to assign essays, but it's a totally different matter to cause someone physical harm. Aside from when Snape tossed Harry across the dungeon in anger over the Pensieve, he has never actually injured a student.
There are just too many ways Snape could cause physical harm to Harry if he really wanted to. Snape may completely and totally loathe Harry but he hasn't put his feelings into actions and I doubt if he will.
popkin - Nov 19, 2003 2:36 am (#56 of 2956)
SJ Rand [/b]- Nov 18, 2003 12:14 pm (#48 of 55) [Umbridge] also wanted to get rid of the two worst teachers in the school. Even Harry admits to himself that Hagrid isn't a good teacher...
Harry never admits that Hagrid isn't a good teacher. He admits that Grubbly Plank IS a good teacher.
SJ Rand - Nov 19, 2003 10:52 am (#57 of 2956)
Edited by S.E. Jones Nov 19, 2003 7:58 pm
Gina R Snape and Weeny Owl:
I wasn't actually defending those characters, just showing examples of how they could be defended if someone really wanted to do so.
In general:
Personally, I don't make much distinction between physical torture and mental torture. Sure, Snape doesn't physically hurt Harry, but mentally? Do I need to point out specific instances here, to other devout readers of the series?
"He's not evil, just mean." I think that depends on one's definition of "evil". Purposely causing suffering for it's own sake fits into my definition of evil quite well. He's a sadist, even if he only uses words.
It's a great philosophical exercise to try showing how Snape really isn't as bad as most people perceive him to be. That's why I defended all those other characters; to point this out. But everything in the books points to Snape being a malicious git, who delights in causing pain and even chaos every chance he gets.
He can't or won't control his emotions >>"Aside from when Snape tossed Harry across the dungeon in anger over the Pensieve, he has never actually injured a student.", and aside from creating chaos and dissension in the Order by relentlessly tormenting Sirius for something he had no control over.
Hey, sure, he's mad at Sirius. He has a right to be. But Sirius got to spend (how many?) years being tortured in Azkaban for something he didn't do, and has had to keep in hiding ever since.
Snape knows no moderation and knows nothing of extenuation. This is the person who was a former Death Eater and received a second chance from Dumbledore when he repented. So it's okay for him to have done vile things in the past, and be forgiven, but he can't forgive anybody else, not even the blameless son of one who tormented him?
Unless he grows up soon, and deigns to treat others with at least a shadow of the same courtesy he himself received,. the Order doesn't need this clown. Throw him back to the Death Eaters where he belongs.
Lisaren - Nov 19, 2003 11:15 am (#58 of 2956)
SJ Rand you have summed up my sentiments on Snape quite effectively. I could do no better.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 19, 2003 2:05 pm (#59 of 2956)
Ok, I am not one of those people who believes that Snape is using tough love or anything like that, and I am one of the first people to say that he is immature, spiteful, and the rest. However "Unless he grows up soon, and deigns to treat others with at least a shadow of the same courtesy he himself received,. the Order doesn't need this clown. Throw him back to the Death Eaters where he belongs." They kind off do need him. He is an invaluable spy for the order, and I am sure he has done some great things for the cause. Yes, mental torture is worse than physical torture; however, Snape does not mentally torture his students. He is a mean bully, but I am sure that is the immpression that most of his students have of him. I doubt that any of them will need to go to counseling in 15 years because of what he said their potions were bad. The worst affect he has had on his students seems to be on Neville; however, once again reacts to him like a person reacts to a bully. I do not think Neville needs, or will need counselling because of Snape.
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 3:00 pm (#60 of 2956)
"I see no difference". His remark when Hermione's teeth grew to enormous size.
His destroying of Harry's potion (after the Pensieve incident), which lost Harry exam points.
His threat to kill Nevilles toad, if Neville's potion is not made up correctly when Snape feeds it to Trevor.....
Sometimes I think this guy is going to redeem himself - but at times like this, I think he's behaving like a vindictive five year old.
And IMHO, He does mentally torture his students! At least, certain ones.....
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 3:27 pm (#61 of 2956)
We are shown a side of Snape that is not the least bit attractive but that can have other interpretations.
I think Snape is no worse than many teachers or other authority figures in many ways, but we're seeing him at his worst when he's dealing with specific students.
I think he knew very well Hermione had helped Neville with the potion and that there was no chance Trevor would be poisoned.
His comment to Hermione about her teeth was horrid, yes, but if this weren't the nasty Snape we see so much of, it could be attributed to PMS (potion master syndrome ). It did get her up to the hospital wing where she ended up doing something she'd wanted to do for a while about her teeth. She can now thumb her nose (or teeth) at Snape.
Harry is a different matter entirely, and I agree that there is no excuse for Snape to destroy Harry's potions and give him zeros.
I don't think Snape is as bad as he seems or as good as he might be, but I do think he's walking a very fine line as a spy and that that line might make him much less tolerable than he might be otherwise.
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 3:37 pm (#62 of 2956)
"I think he knew very well Hermione had helped Neville with the potion and that there was no chance Trevor would be poisoned."
Weeny, but did Neville know this? I don't think so.
And whatever his reasons, or excuses put forward on his behalf, what he said to Hermione was unforgiveable for a teacher to say to a pupil.
Whichever way you look at it, it's mental torture, IMHO.....
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 4:25 pm (#63 of 2956)
Well, I know I will be completely alone in this, but I don't mind playing devil's advocate. I thought the "I see no difference" comment was extremely catty and kind of funny. There's no way, under any circumstance, that Snape would ever be able to show sympathy to Hermione. I think, if anything, Snape chose at that moment not to treat Hermione as a child. She acts like such a 'know-it-all' that he doesn't mollycoddle her. Sure it made her cry, but he didn't take points when she exploded and ran off to the infirmary.
My brothers (who are 7 and 10 years older than I) used to make me cry all the time until I figured out how not to play into their games. And now as an adult I feel much more prepared not to be easily manipulated by people. So, to compare with Snape, I, er, see no difference.
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 4:35 pm (#64 of 2956)
Mental torture, tim?
Well, as you so often say, nobody's perfect
It may very well be torture, but it's also showing us that Snape is undergoing his own stressful moments and lost it. He's been feeling the Dark Mark for a while, he's come upon a group of students dueling, and he lost his patience and said something nasty.
Good point about Neville not knowing, though. I think there's more to his treatment of Neville than exasperation due to burnt cauldrons.
I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
Hem Hem - Nov 19, 2003 4:41 pm (#65 of 2956)
Snape has to treat Harry and co. miserably, because if he didn't, Malfoy would go complaining to his father about it. Now, that doesn't mean that if Snape didn't have to watch his back, he's be giving them candy, but he does have to be aware of keeping his cover at all times. The Snape that we see is never the whole Snape....
SJ Rand - Nov 19, 2003 4:47 pm (#66 of 2956)
Timrew: >>And whatever his reasons, or excuses put forward on his behalf, what he said to Hermione was unforgivable for a teacher to say to a pupil.
I agree one hundred percent. Also with your mention of the threat of poisoning Neville's toad. By the way, Neville's potion was still a mess despite Hermione's attempts to help him set it straight.
Tpujiko4444: >>He is an invaluable spy for the order, and I am sure he has done some great things for the cause.
A spy might be very desirable, but a spy who was a former DE, hates the Order's most valuable (non) member, hates another member (Lupin), and seems psychologically unstable is a bigger risk than I would take.
I'll pull back a bit on what I said earlier though. I think Dumbledore should metaphorically slap the guy around a bit and remind him of his place in the world. A reminder that Harry is not James wouldn't hurt either.
I don't think that Snape is absolutely unredeemable, but I'm sure that he needs someone to change his behavior, because he's not going to do it on his own. If he were, he'd have mellowed when Quirrell tried to kill Harry, or when he saw that Harry's life had been as miserable as Snape's.
Weeny Owl: >>I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
Why does there have to be? I won't dismiss that there might be, but I don't understand the requirement for there to be.
Um, okay let me toss this one at you? Most seem to agree that Harry and Neville get the worst of Snape. Neville messes up all the time, Harry only some of the time, so what else do they have in common?
Harry and Neville were both candidates to be the one named in the Phophesy.
Hail Snape, the Once and Future Death Eater?
Changing subjects:
Has anyone come up with any good ideas about why Snape doesn't get the DADA position?
Too good at Potions to lose there? Too dangerous around students to trust hurling curses at them? It can't be a question of teaching quality, because Quirrell was a joke at teaching it (intentionally, but nobody knew that).
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 4:52 pm (#67 of 2956)
SJ Rand, the question about Snape not getting the DADA job was discussed at length in the Severus Snape #1 thread.
I can tell you, though, that during the Albert Finney Hall interview, JKR said Dumbledore is afraid the DADA position would bring out the worst in him. Blast end newt also came up on this thread with what I thought was a brilliant idea--a management ploy on Dumbledore's part. Namely, that Snape is a proud man, and would go above and beyond in his role as Potions Master to prove himself in the absence of being given what he truly wants. Kind of a motivational AND keep him in his place tactic in one.
Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 6:00 pm (#68 of 2956)
You can argue about whether or not Snape is horrid to the children all day and all night basically, and you will always have people say yes and you will always have people say no (and of course you will have some who say Yes, BUT...) However, as a literary device he is quite desirable- on one level every school needs a teacher to despise and Snape fills those shoes nicely. He also fills the shoes of how you would expect a former-death-eater-turned-good to act, as well.
Realistically, would the story be as believable if Snape- a man we know to have a troubled past and a man we know to have been connected to the darkest wizard of an age, walked around as Mary-Sunshine, towing the line and never stepping out of place and crying into his butterbeer about his previous immoral acts?! He'd be boring, if you ask me and I'm not sure people would care about him as much (either hating or liking)
Within this story JKR has set it up that Snape's actions and motivations are not what they seem. And yet she has also made it quite clear that Snape is not just 'playing' a role, either. He is a complicated man, our Mr. Snape, and to dismiss him as evil and to send him back to the DE's as it were, is an injustice to the wonderful charactization she has given him. He is not all bad. He is not all good. No one in this story is, honestly (except maybe Voldemort and even he may have a saving grace). But with Snape it is more pronounced- we have the examples of his cruelty and we have examples of his ability to do the right thing. We also have Dumbledore's trust in the man, which is definitely NOT something to disregard.
Snape is the way he is- all shadow and gray areas- because that is the way his creator made him. JKR knows what she's doing with this guy, no doubt about it. When she sets it up so that it is SNAPE who saves Harry in book one, there's a reason. When she shows us a memory that involves Harry's father and Snape's utter embarrassment and calls it 'Snape's Worse Memory' and *doesn't* show us something from his Death Eater days, there is a reason. It is too easy to dismiss Snape as evil and let it lie at that . JKR has been telling us this for awhile now and I think her characterization of Snape shows it best- there is not just black and white, good versus evil type of people. There are some you can dislike and still fight on the same side with. There are some who appear one way and act like another. There are those individuals who you would believe would never save you and yet, in complete contrast to their personality, they do. This is what she is trying to teach Harry and Snape is a prime example of that. And he's (she's) bloody brilliant at it.
Gina R Snape - Nov 19, 2003 6:28 pm (#69 of 2956)
Way to go, Sly Girl! And JKR, of course...
S.E. Jones - Nov 19, 2003 8:14 pm (#70 of 2956)
Ah, Sly, thank you. Your posts are always so insightful and intriguing, no wonder I look for to them..!
Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 8:32 pm (#71 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I don't think Snape's behavior toward Harry and Neville is quite as simple as it seems, though. There has to be much more to it than him taking his hatred of James out on Harry and being frustrated with Neville.
SJ: Why does there have to be? I won't dismiss that there might be, but I don't understand the requirement for there to be.
The requirement is simply because JKR has made Snape more than a one-dimensional character. His motivations would be much too simplistic if they were to be a result ONLY of hating someone's father and annoyance with a student. The feelings about James and the frustration with Neville's lack of potion-making skills are the obvious, but with Snape, there is rarely only what is seen on the surface.
Sly: Snape is the way he is- all shadow and gray areas- because that is the way his creator made him. JKR knows what she's doing with this guy, no doubt about it.
Oh, yes indeed she does, and you have such a unique way with words. Your explanations are much better than anything I could say.
Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 8:34 pm (#72 of 2956)
Blush* Oh stop it. My thanks. I'm sure others will disagree.
timrew - Nov 20, 2003 10:45 am (#73 of 2956)
I might not like some of Snape's characteristics, Sly; but I think he's damn interesting and would have him no other way.
The day he becomes, 'Mary Sunshine' is the day I stop reading the books!
SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 11:26 am (#74 of 2956)
Sly Girl: >>Realistically, would the story be as believable if Snape- a man we know to have a troubled past and a man we know to have been connected to the darkest wizard of an age, walked around as Mary-Sunshine...
No, not at all.
He could walk around like McGonagall though. Tough as nails, a bit of favoritism towards "her" house, often sarcastic, and sometimes unreasonable, but not a caricature of a Dickens Orphan School headmaster.
>We also have Dumbledore's trust in the man, which is definitely NOT something to disregard.
Before OotP, I couldn't possibly argue that point. However by OotP's end, Dumbledore has made too many mistakes. He's just a mortal, and mortals sometimes slip up.
He trusted Snape to want, and be able, to teach Occlumency to Harry. He trusted Harry to want to learn it just from having been told he should. He trusted that he didn't need to tell Harry what the Prophesy was yet. He trusted "Mad Eye Moody" as impersonated by Crouch. He trusted Quirrell. He allowed, by failure of action, the MoM to place their "teacher" in his school knowing full well the climate of overt hostility towards him, Harry, and Hogwarts, within the Ministry.
Snape could well have fully reformed, but if he slid back to his former alliance would Dumbledore notice? Quirrell only had a turban hiding Voldemort. DD never noticed. Given Snape's usual behavior, how would anyone notice if he was no longer just a man with an evil temperament, but once again an evil man?
>JKR has been telling us this for awhile now ...
Please don't take offense, but I have no interest in what Rowling says in interviews any more than I'll listen to a poet explain what his verse really meant. Either the text does the job or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the text needs to be changed, not explained.
It's very common for faithful fans to quote what writers say in interviews. I'm just a very old school, hard nosed, critic. No matter how much I like the artist, the art must speak for itself.
Weeny Owl: >>The requirement is simply because JKR has made Snape more than a one-dimensional character. His motivations would be much too simplistic if they were to be a result ONLY of hating someone's father and annoyance with a student.
But those are the only motivations we're seeing in print. As written, Snape is a one dimensional character who is present only to provide misery to those around him. His decision to save Harry's life in PS/SS hints at a more developed character, but Dumbledore explains that away at the end. The only extra information we have now is why he hates James, but James has been dead for fourteen years.
There might well end up being far more to Snape than what we've read, but from what we've read so far there's very little to him.
I hope that by the next book Rowling either does something with Snape or just pushes him into the background. Harry and company have more than enough problems without keeping Snape and his petty punishments front and center if he doesn't have something else to contribute.
In PS/SS and CoS he was the evil one, there to make Harry's new life less sublime. A good counterpoint.
By PoA there was more than enough evil to go around, and Snape's role became redundant. By OotP there was so much evil and misery that he was just a waste of space.
timrew - Nov 20, 2003 3:36 pm (#75 of 2956)
I think Snape was beginning to be more interesting in OOP. There was the bit with Harry in the Occlumency chapter, where he seemed to realise that Harry had not had a privileged and pampered upbringing.
He seemed to be on the verge of establishing some form of 'contact' between them, until Harry made a complete mess of things by prying into Snape's memories in the Pensieve.
I honestly think there is a lot more to learn about Snape yet. Okay, JKR is taking things at her own pace; but there could well be a reason for this. We'll just have to wait for Book 6, or even Book 7 to find out.
Sly Girl - Nov 20, 2003 4:18 pm (#76 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 20, 2003 6:02 pm
He could walk around like McGonagall though. Tough as nails, a bit of favoritism towards "her" house, often sarcastic, and sometimes unreasonable, but not a caricature of a Dickens Orphan School headmaster.
But McGonagall is already McGonagall and for the purpose of a literary story, the character of Snape is such that it shows the difference of two approaches. Personal wise- McGonagall also does not have the dark past that Snape does. Or if she does, we have not been made aware of it as we have with Snape.
Please don't take offense, but I have no interest in what Rowling says in interviews any more than I'll listen to a poet explain what his verse really meant. Either the text does the job or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the text needs to be changed, not explained.
It's very common for faithful fans to quote what writers say in interviews. I'm just a very old school, hard nosed, critic. No matter how much I like the artist, the art must speak for itself.
Actually, I do take offense because you have basically just said that my reasoning is based on non-story (ie non canon)information and is therefore invalid to you. The humorous thing is, is I wasn't even referring to JKR interviews or what she has said elsewhere. I meant what she has told us within her own text. She has set the stories up so that Harry recognizes that not everyone is as good as he thinks and not everyone is as bad as he thinks either. She even has a character state- "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." (American Edition, page 302) This is the process in which Harry needs to grow up and I do believe that JKR has SHOWN us this in her WRITING, not her outside comments.
However, please do not condescend to others if they do happen to 'quote' JKR about her own work. There are some people who do like to know outside information and actually believe it furthers their understanding and enjoyment. It is part of the nature of writing- it is an act of communication, after all- that people will wonder what the creator of certain works, thinks. Your way of being a hard nose critic is no better than others.
SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 5:34 pm (#77 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 20, 2003 6:07 pm
Sly Girl: >>But McGonagall is already McGonagall and for the purpose of a literary story, the character of Snape is such that it shows the difference of two approaches
You're right, and I should have seen that coming.
I didn't mean that he should be a carbon copy, just a tougher and more snide version of her.
When I went to school we had several teachers that were somewhere between McGonagall and Snape. We even had one who liked to bounce bits of chalk off the heads of students who nodded off during his class (he taught algebra, so it wasn't uncommon).
Even the chalk hurler, though, never snatched a page of poorly done calculations off a student's desk, destroyed the work, and crowed "No Marks!!! HeHeHe! 500 points from...", um, well we had nothing to take points from, but you get the idea.
The contradiction on this board right now it that people are defending Harry's and some other characters' actions with post after post about how Rowling is showing "real teenage behavior", while at the same time others, sometimes the same ones, are defending the drastically over the top behavior of Snape.
He had a tough life. James was jerk to him and Harry looks like James. He was with the evil crowd and converted.
>The humorous thing is, is I wasn't even referring to JKR interviews or what she has said elsewhere. I meant what she has told us within her own text.
I apologize for that stupid mistake. I've been in so many book discussion groups that when I see ""Author" told us" type phrases I automatically figure what follows is from an interview, and my brain shuts down. Sorry!
Denise P. - Nov 20, 2003 6:09 pm (#78 of 2956)
This is a discussion of Snape. Get it back on track please.
Christina is correct in saying people feel that they are being talked down to if they refer to an interview. On this Forum, JKR interviews are accepted as canon. An individual can decide if they accept it or not but that doesn't mean it is acceptable to ridicule those who do.
MTW - Nov 20, 2003 7:20 pm (#79 of 2956)
When I first read Snape's worst memory. I had some problems with the amount of detail that it contained. The conversations between the Marauders. Also how could Snape know James was writing L.E. on his paper made me doubt the details in it as truth. On the second reading , I though if Snape did hear some of the conversations it would explain his curiosity that almost got him killed. Lupin talking about the five signs of a werewolf.
One : He's sitting in my chair. Two: He's wearing my clothes. Three: His name's Remus Lupin... OotP p643 American
Snape hearing this would consider this be a gold mine. A chance to strike back at his tormentors. But I reason that Snape heard parts of the conversation. Only after his near death with Lupin did his mind put together and filled in the blanks. But the L.E. still remained. A torn in my mind irating me.
The answer is in the book. Harry is looking at the back of Parvati Patils head and thought : if only he could preform Legilimency and open a window in the back of her head and see what it was about trolls that cause the breach between Pierre Bonaccord and Liechtenstein... p726 OotP American
Then the answer poped into his head.
Could Snape have been doing the same thing . Looking at back of James head to figure out what he was doing. Then the answer poped into my head. Snape was spying on the Marauders. The moment Snape finished his test in DADA. Harry attention saw the back of James head. Harry moves toward James, but the text mentions....Instead he seemed to slide, dreamlike, across two aisles and up a third. The back of the black-haired boy's head drew nearer and nearer.... p641 OotP American
What Harry didn't realize the reason of this moment was not only being fueled by his desire to see James, but also Snape was put his full attention on James. Thus achieving the full detail of the memory.
S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 8:07 pm (#80 of 2956)
Even the chalk hurler, though, never snatched a page of poorly done calculations off a student's desk, destroyed the work, and crowed "No Marks!!! HeHeHe! 500 points from...", um, well we had nothing to take points from, but you get the idea.
But you don't live in a fictional world where characters must serve a literary purpose. Harry and Snape do. Snape must be the way he is the serve the purpose he does. He must be cruel and calculating and layered or he doesn't make for a very good literary device and thus can't forward the plot any. This is a story with a very determined outline and flow, in which everything has a purpose and a place in the scheme of things.
Weeny Owl - Nov 20, 2003 8:20 pm (#81 of 2956)
SJ - "But those are the only motivations we're seeing in print. As written, Snape is a one dimensional character who is present only to provide misery to those around him. His decision to save Harry's life in PS/SS hints at a more developed character, but Dumbledore explains that away at the end. The only extra information we have now is why he hates James, but James has been dead for fourteen years"
We have more information than that, really. We know he's a reformed Death Eater, we know that he's not only an excellent Potion Master but also skilled in a rather obscure branch of magic, and we know that he knows much more than he's giving away.
The Occlumency lessons have quite a few hints as to what might actually be going on with him. He has to be very careful of what he sys and to whom he says it because he is putting his life on the line for the Order.
I'm not saying he's a fluffy bunny rabbit or will ever be one, but from the first book, we've been shown that in his case, appearances can be very deceptive.
Tomoé - Nov 20, 2003 8:34 pm (#82 of 2956)
The History of magic's OWL incident have made me wonder. Was Harry reading Parvati's mine, Hermione's (he remembered the image of the pages that she write), the waps's (that could be an DD ^_^ , I don't trust that one too much) or Voldemort's ? If he was reading Voldie's, I'm pretty sure that Snape couldn't read James's memories like that. If he was reading Parvati's or Hermione's, Snape could have look in the marauders's head.
Could Voldemort remember that kind of stuff after so many years, no wonder he may be the must brilliant student in Hogwarts ever.
Caput Draconis - Nov 21, 2003 4:46 am (#83 of 2956)
Edited by Nov 21, 2003 4:47 am
Ah, nothing feeds the soul like reading 700 consecutive Snape posts - I feel so clean...
I love the whole concept of Legilimancy/Occlumancy, especially because what Snape teaches seems to reflect his complex (definitely complex, btw) nature. Potions displays his mastery of process, his knowledge, skill and patience at creating that which will bewitch and ensnare. Leg/Occ is a different kind of skill, but requires a similar concentration ? but here I think we also understand that he has real power, the kind of pure magical force that potions has never really allowed us to see. They?re both such individual arts, and ones that only enhance his loneliness, for me. But there again, it is an immensely intimate thing to have access to the deepest workings of the mind. And to assign that power to Severus ? it?s almost painful to think of a man who seems to have had so little true human contact experiencing the most personal moments of another?s life?
Anyway, I just think JKR couldn?t have picked more appropriate arts for Snape. I?ve always thought it interesting that the pensieve is like a potion of thoughts ? Severus has some mastery of both ? yet his weakness lies in the memory, regret and bitterness that has bewitched his mind.
I?ve no idea how anyone could find him one dimensional. Maybe I?m just a sucker for a dark soul redeemed, especially one with that undefinable element of?something. The X factor.
And oh, from weeks ago: "What did I do? All I've ever done is try and save the boy's life!" Great AR moment!
popkin - Nov 21, 2003 8:51 am (#84 of 2956)
MTW, those were excellent thoughts on how Snape could have known that James had doodled L.E. on his exam paper. Snape could very well have been using Legilimens during his worst memory - otherwise why would Harry have slipped into position to see the back of James' head when in every other movement through a memory in the pensieve he has run to keep up with the characters he was watching?
However, I don't think Snape personally witnessed all the details of the memory. He seems to be oblivious to the marauders during most of the beginning scenes. I think the pensieve fills in the details. It is magic, afterall.
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 9:10 am (#85 of 2956)
I agree, Popkin. My take on it is that it is a medical fact that we all experience a phenomenon where the brain filters things out so we don't suffer from sensory overload. Literally, we hear and see more than we can cope with, and so the brain chooses what we notice, storing the rest unbeknownst to our conscious selves. I suspect that when a memory is put into a Pensieve, some of this stuff our conscious mind filtered out is still included in the regurgitated memory. Hence, Harry being able to see and experience so much in the memory.
Caput, I love it! Only you and I and a select few could read this entire Snape thread and feel "clean" afterwards. LOL.
And now that you mention it, being an Occlumens and Legilimens does make Snape more isolated in a way. I'd like to hear your and others' thoughts on this more thoroughly. It's a fascinating angle I hadn't thought of before.
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 11:26 am (#86 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 21, 2003 1:16 pm
S.E. Jones: >>But you don't live in a fictional world where characters must serve a literary purpose. Harry and Snape do. Snape must be the way he is the serve the purpose he does.
You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that he's filled that purpose for five books now, and his need in that capacity is gone. I'm not simply saying Rowling should get Snape out of the series. I'm saying that she should either advance, or grow, the character beyond what we've seen since PS/SS or put him on the back burner. I'd be equally happy with either one.
Weeny Owl: >>We have more information than that, really. We know he's a reformed Death Eater, we know that he's not only an excellent Potion Master but also skilled in a rather obscure branch of magic, and we know that he knows much more than he's giving away.
Playing devil's advocate here, but don't we know even more about Fudge, a minor character? We even know pretty well as much about Crouch Senior and Bagman, who were one book characters used only to help set up other events.
>I'm not saying he's a fluffy bunny rabbit or will ever be one but from the first book, we've been shown that in his case, appearances can be very deceptive
Nice turn of phrase there with the bunny thing.
I don't see that they are deceptive. He saved Harry's life in PS/SS, and he's a spy for the Order, but that doesn't mean he isn't evil, or at least vile, in his own right.
We still don't know why he left Voldemort either. It could be that, as folks here have suggested, Voldemort went too far and Snape couldn't take it anymore. It could also be that Voldemort wouldn't give him as high a position among the DEs as Snape thought he deserved.
I'd enjoy an in depth look at Snape that wasn't nasty remarks and unjust punishments. The Pensieve memory was more about James than about Snape, even with the insight it provided.
Edit SJ, if you continue to post on an issue that is over, you will be placed on moderated status. If you have a question on my editing, the reasons for it and why this post was edited, the correct place to address them would be via email, not on the Forum. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 11:40 am (#87 of 2956)
SJ Rand, if you are suggesting that there be more Snape in the next two books in order to further expand and clarify his character...I am All For That!!!
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 11:47 am (#88 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: Yes, that's what I'm saying. We know the punishments part by heart now, so let's get on to the good stuff. Or maybe I should have said "other stuff" rather than "good".
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 11:57 am (#89 of 2956)
Heh, heh. Speaking as someone who wouldn't mind doing detention with Snape, I'd say it's all good stuff. Let's have the harsh Potions Master and the intriguing backstory, and his motivations, and so on and so forth...
Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 2:02 pm (#90 of 2956)
::kicking Gina out of the way:: Detention with Snape would be so interesting.
I would also like to see more of him in the remaining books. The Pensieve scene just whetted my appetite for finding out more about him and his family history and all the whys and wherefores of what made him reform.
I do feel, though, that Snape wouldn't be trusted by Dumbledore simply because Voldie wouldn't give him a higher position within the Death Eaters' inner circle. While Dumbledore is great on second chances, I think there would have to be something indicative of a change of heart for a true second chance.
Gina R Snape - Nov 21, 2003 2:06 pm (#91 of 2956)
Cute smilies, Weeny. But there's no reason why we couldn't both serve detention. Then again, if we fight over it, he might give us even more detention with him. Hee hee.
Dumbledore mentions that Snape did something which put himself in great danger. It is that crucial bit of information I am waiting to find out, and which I think lies at the crux of why Dumbledore implicitly and explicity trusts our Severus.
Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 2:14 pm (#92 of 2956)
Gina:
I could see him giving us more detentions if we fight over it!
Dumbledore did mention that Snape had turned spy at a great personal risk. That sounds as if something truly major happened.
I have wondered about something, and I'm not sure JKR would ever think it anything worthy of mention, but when Snape stopped Harry from cursing Draco and was going to remove points, he said something to the effect of, "...then we'll just have to..." That's when McGonagall said, "Add some more?" What could Snape do besides take away points? A detention, maybe?
SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 2:54 pm (#93 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I do feel, though, that Snape wouldn't be trusted by Dumbledore simply because Voldie wouldn't give him a higher position within the Death Eaters' inner circle.
I don't remember reading that Dumbledore knew the exact reason Snape left. Do you remember where it's mentioned? I'll be re-reading the series, but probably not until next week.
Blast - Nov 22, 2003 9:17 am (#94 of 2956)
Dumbledore tells Harry that what made Snape change sides is between the two of them. This is after Harry sees what happened in DD's pensieve. Ladies don't forget that Filch seems to be in charge of most detentions.
SJ Rand - Nov 22, 2003 11:14 am (#95 of 2956)
Ah, okay I found it. Last page of chapter thirty in GoF. Thank you, Blast end newt.
Weeny Owl, sorry I forgot about that part of the conversation. You're right of course.
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 12:24 am (#96 of 2956)
Gina wrote>> And now that you mention it, being an Occlumens and Legilimens does make Snape more isolated in a way.<<
It would! Being able to see/feel the darkest thoughts of human nature would make a depressing existence. If anyone has seen or read "The Green Mile", by Stephen King, John Coffey, about to be executed for a murder he didn't commit has the ability to "see" the truth, "hear" people's thoughts... and he tells the prison wardens (who have befriended him) that he *wants* to die. It is painful for him to hear the lower aspects of the human mind relentlessly, and longs to be released from the burden.
Back to occlumency/legilimancy... I would probably avoid people if I had the ability to see what they *really* thought when they were smiling and agreeing with me! <grin> Even if it was an ability which could be *not* used all the time, the temptation would be there to peek. And most people probably wouldn't like what was really in the minds of others... Then, those being "read" wouldn't like it either, and would perhaps withdraw further.
So, in addition to his Spying Game (in which he would undoubtedly have to hide *so* much of himself - Does anyone know the *real* Snape? I hardly think so, apart from perhaps DD. IS there any such thing anymore as the *real* Snape or has he been lost in the game of Spy?), we have someone with the potential to know exactly how people feel about him (usually not positive). I can see his behaviour as stemming from this. If you treat an animal badly, it will eventually repay you by behaving badly.
Nox (joing Gina and Weeny Owl in the fight for detention with Snape... I'll be the one kicking over cauldrons and setting the dungeon alight. "Do I get detention *now* sir?")
Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 9:44 am (#97 of 2956)
Welcome to the Detention Club, Nox! I do like what you've said about our Severus... especially the part about whether or not there is a real Snape any longer.
I can see similarities between Harry and him because of how self-contained they both are. We know what Harry is thinking and feeling, but he doesn't let it show with others. Even his best friends aren't always sure of what he's feeling.
Snape is even more of a loner than Harry, I would think. He really can't let anyone become too close because of his work as a spy.
I do hope JKR lets him live at the end and that we see him happy, or as happy as he can ever be, in his later years.
SJ Rand - Nov 23, 2003 10:49 am (#98 of 2956)
Nox NotteTorrente: >>Being able to see/feel the darkest thoughts of human nature would make a depressing existence. If anyone has seen or read "The Green Mile", by Stephen King, John Coffey...
Yes, I'm a horror fan so I've read all of King's books. The difference between Coffey's left handed gift from god and Legilimency is, I think, Legilimency is exercised by choice.
I don't believe they're true telepaths or empaths, who can't block out what others are thinking, but instead have the ability to intentionally push into a person's mind when they want to. Sort of like how we read a book, or look through someone's window.
Since you mentioned King, I'll offer one of his favorite sayings: "Peek not through keyholes, lest ye be vexed." Legimens peek.
Gina R Snape - Nov 23, 2003 11:12 am (#99 of 2956)
Interesting, SJ Rand.
Legilimens do more than peek, I think. They probe and seek out thoughts and feelings to extract and interpret. They can dig around, as opposed to just hear what you happen to be thinking at that moment. Of course, I think an Occlumens can control what the Legilimens finds. Either by blocking actual memories or manipulating the feelings attached to them.
I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others). It must take a tremendous amount of pressure to calm the mind and protect it from intrusion. He might be the type to always stand guard in case of such an intrusion. I find that incredibly sad and lonely.
Living that kind of life, the only safe emotions would be anger and annoyance. Showing any kind of affection, comradarie, or being relaxed and playful would open himself and the one(s) he's relaxed around to vulnerabilities. Which is why I think he can play around sportingly with McGonagall--she's one of the few who he has no fear can protect herself (plus, I do think they have a genuine co-worker friendship).
Oh, and I'm officially dubbing myself Founder of the Detention with Snape! club.
Killian - Nov 23, 2003 12:11 pm (#100 of 2956)
"Legilimens do more than peek, I think. They probe and seek out thoughts and feelings to extract and interpret. They can dig around, as opposed to just hear what you happen to be thinking at that moment. Of course, I think an Occlumens can control what the Legilimens finds. Either by blocking actual memories or manipulating the feelings attached to them."
I think that's the difference that Snape was trying to explain to Harry in OotP. A person who can read a person's mind only sees what's on the surface, whereas someone trained in Legilimens can bring up memories and thoughts, as well as the emotions attatched to them, that a person may not even recall having.
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HP Fan - Nov 23, 2003 1:21 pm (#101 of 2956)
Gina: I think you're right about Snape and McGonagall having a co-worker friendship in one sense. I'm not really sure I think that they do - it's a gut reaction partly based around that scene in OoP where he starts towards her and then stops almost as if he's pulling himself up possibly because Malfoy is there. Also where she says think in PoA something like 'Potter do try and win, or we'll be out of the running for the Xth year in a row, as Snape was kind enough to remind me" Not exact quote and couldn't remember the number of years and also in PS again not exact as haven't either books in front of me I'm sure she says that they [Griffindor] need a better team than the year before and goes on to say she couldn't look Snape in the eye for weeks. It just strikes me a bit like my relationship with some of my friends they tend to rub it in if I don't do as well as them at something and I return the compliment. [I'm not sure if that makes sense].
However I must question how you think Dumbledore isn't able to defend himself where you say "Which is why I think he can play around sportingly with McGonagall--she's one of the few who he has no fear can protect herself (plus, I do think they have a genuine co-worker friendship." it just gives me the impression [and I could have misunderstood so could you clear it up for me if I have.] that you feel she can protect herself where Dumbledore can't. Or do you mean [just come to me while typing] that because he's playing the spy game and knows so much about Dumbledore that he can't relax around him in case Voldemort manages to get at his guard. Does that make sense? I start typing and then doubt myself as to whether I'm making any sense at all. Even if I start out with a very clear idea of what I want to say.
My take on Snape is that he is much more than a one dimensional character, he's way too intriguing, we think we know a lot about him but if you come to write it down in a list we know very little. I can't wait for the next two books as I feel JKR has some very startling things about him up her sleeve.
Oh yeah I think I want to join the in Detention with Snape club too!
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 3:06 pm (#102 of 2956)
Gee, I expected to log on this morning and have someone remind me that Snape is a superb *occlumens* not *legilimens* but never mind But then we have seen Harry under the impression that Snape can read his mind, so I think he is sufficiently accomplished in 'natural' legilimancy, for want of a better term. I thought there was a distinct difference in being a legilimens (natural) and casting the legilimency spell... Personally, I got the impression he can see/read thoughts or whatever *briefly*, but for the sustained effort required to teach Harry to skill of occlumency, he needed to resort to the Legilimens! spell. So he may not have been "probing and seeking" in the past, just "picking up" with the barest touch, maybe even unconsciously before he learned to control his talent.
timrew - Nov 23, 2003 3:11 pm (#103 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
I was thinking about the same thing myself, Gina. When Harry is having a go at Snape for always referring to Voldemort as, "The Dark Lord". I think this is part of Snape's cover. He daren't refer to Voldemort any other way, unless he slips up at the next Death Eater meeting.....
"You know, I was thinking, Voldie, old buddy.......oops!"
I think Snape is on a knife edge all the time, seeing as he has to occupy both worlds. Harry and co. see him as mean and distant because of this; whereas, perhaps he is a soft and cuddly old teddy bear at heart!
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 3:20 pm (#104 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
This is what I was getting at with the "does anybody know the real Snape (apart from Gina, of course )" part of my post. He *can't* be himself because of his work as a spy (although I doubt he has a Care Bear. Maybe a stuffed vulture... no that wouldn't work...)
Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 3:59 pm (#105 of 2956)
A stuffed vulture? Ha! That's why he gave the vulture hat to Dumbledore... he didn't want to wear a relative on his head.
I do agree with tim that he absolutely cannot take a chance with how he refers to Voldie. I also think that there's something about mentioning the name that might draw attention from Voldie himself. As you said, tim, Snape is on a knife edge.
I like what you said, Nox, about him being a natural Legilimens. Sensing emotions, probably being able to guess correctly in most instances what someone feels, but actually probing deeply needs the spell itself.
Gina has now been elected the president of the "Detention with Snape" Club. Poor guy... we'll wear him out.
Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 4:03 pm (#106 of 2956)
I said earlier on the "Saying the name of Voldemort" thread (I think that's where it came up) that the reason Snape gets sooo upset when Harry says Voldemort's name is due a fear that this allows V. easier entry into one's mind.
Ciao. Barb
Killian - Nov 23, 2003 5:31 pm (#107 of 2956)
Maybe the reason why he doesn't say Voldemort is partially out of fear and partially out of the fact that he doesn't want to make it become to common out of fear of the fact that he might slip up. But I was wondering something else as well. One of Dumbledore's greatest assets as well as greatest problems is that he is, in all respect, by far too trusting. I don't want to sound paranoid about Snape, but isn't it possible that he may be acting as a double agent but not in the way that they think? Saying that he's spying for the Order while in actuality he's feeding them false information mixed in with truths about Voldemort because he is still working for Voldemort? And now that we know that he's a skilled Legilimens and Occlumens, isn't it possible for him to lie to Dumbledore's face without fear of being discovered if he can supposedly do the same with Voldemort? I don't really believe this myself, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Gina R Snape - Nov 23, 2003 8:39 pm (#108 of 2956)
Going back to HP Fan's question about DD. I don't think Dumbledore has any problem defending himself. But I don't think he and Snape are friends like Snape and McGonagall are. Dumbledore is Voldemort's enemy, so Snape couldn't appear friendly with him. But even if that were not an issue, I see Dumbledore as needing to keep a measure of distance from Snape so that he can remain an authority figure, and perhaps something of a father figure to Snape.
We have yet to have a scene between the two other than DD giving Snape directives, and the Christmas crackers scene (and DD was totally taking the piss out of Snape after the boggart incident). Snape was not amused, but DD can pull that sort of thing off. I just don't think Snape could reciprocate on that level with DD the way he could with McGonagall. She and he are much more on a peer level. I hope that makes sense.
Caput Draconis - Nov 23, 2003 11:12 pm (#109 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
Gosh yes. And surely that is at the heart of any loneliness we see in his character - imagine seeing the expression of basic emotions as a luxury - and one that is denied to you. The nature of his work for the order means he must view everyone he knows or meets as an enemy that must be fooled, or a ?friend? that must be distanced. And to do this he must literally shut his mind ? or force his way into the minds of others ? which will only increase any emptiness within. There may be an echo of emotional empathy but that?s all it is, an echo, a stolen glimpse of what it might be like to drop his guard. And all this to protect a boy who (in Snape?s eyes) is surrounded by the love that he himself has always been denied or had to shun.
I think he?s been in a similar state of loneliness his whole life, especially during his time at school, and this was perhaps one of the tools the Dark Lord used to recruit him in the first place. Promising him an escape from the walls he created even at so young an age to block the taunts of his peers (I?d like to know about this ?gang of Slytherins? he supposedly hung around?) or the yet to be properly explained issues at home, offering him respect, acceptance, revenge...
Maybe it only enhances Severus? isolation for him to know that his current situation was brought about in part by the need to redeem himself of his Death Eater past, but if the consequence of his past actions is to find himself even further trapped in the loneliness he was trying to free himself of?no wonder he?s messed up.
Do I get detention for saying you?re messed up, sir? And I adore that idea about McGonagall being Snape?s only outlet to relax a little?
Weeny Owl - Nov 24, 2003 9:57 am (#110 of 2956)
Killian - "I don't want to sound paranoid about Snape, but isn't it possible that he may be acting as a double agent but not in the way that they think?"
I've changed my opinion of Snape quite a bit (thanks, Gina!), but still, in the back of my mind, there is a seed of doubt as to his true intentions.
I do feel that overall he will be loyal to Dumbledore and the Order, but if something major were to happen, I could see him allowing his darker side to flourish.
One concern I have is that the Pensieve incident will cause him to detest Harry even more than he already does, and that he might, maybe not even realizing it consciously, not pass along information that is critical. I don't think he would do anything obvious in the next book that would harm Harry, but he might do (or fail to do) something that could get an Order member hurt or killed.
Since I do feel he's on the side of the angels, I could see him regretting whatever he did or didn't do, and finally coming to terms with his feelings about Harry and James and letting go of his hatred.
I would like to see JKR having Harry and Snape hash out their problems and have a more mature relationship. It wouldn't mean that they actually liked each other but that they could respect each other and work together. Not in public, perhaps, but at least when they're alone or with other members of the Order.
HP Fan - Nov 24, 2003 12:34 pm (#111 of 2956)
Thanks Gina, I was tired when I read the last lot of posts. I didn't really take in what I was reading. I get what you mean now. Weeny Owl I really want to see Harry and Snape come to a more mature relationship and a better understanding as well. But both of them have got to let go of their pride. Plus with Voldemort back on the scene, I doubt that in book 6 that its going to happen. Hopefully it'll happen in book 7, but even then probably near the end. I think that the pensive scene is a tantalising hint of what made Snape the way he is, as is the scene when Harry manages to break into Snape's memory. Gina I like the idea of DD taking the Mickey out of Snape with the Vulture hat in the cracker.
Gina R Snape - Nov 24, 2003 1:35 pm (#112 of 2956)
Oh yeah. I hope that they show that in the movie. It's actually one of my favourite 'non-crucial' scenes in the book. The look on Snape's face is priceless I'm sure! Being forced to play along with opening the wizard crackers, and then getting Neville's gran's hat. Hee. In fact, I can just imagine him fuming as it came up in a staff meeting. Because you know all the staff must have heard about it from the kids, then laughed and talked about it. Bwa ha ha. Poor Severus.
Anyway, wasn't that the scene where Trelawney mentions 13 people at the table? So, hopefully that will be deemed 'important enough' not to be cut. But I'm not holding my breath.
Edit: By the way, I've really particularly enjoyed this thread lately. I'm just so pleased to have influenced some people's thoughts on how they see Snape. And we even have a Snape for Detention club now. Wow!
timrew - Nov 26, 2003 4:27 pm (#113 of 2956)
Like you, Gina, I hope that this scene is left in, for the part you've mentioned, but especially for the banter between McGonagall and Trelawney - but with a book the size of GOF it might not be.
You're bringing me round about Snape. From being the dyed-in-the-wool Death Eater who will end up going back to Voldie, I'm beginning to see another side to our dear old Potions Master.
He has a lot to put up with. Preserving his loyalty to Voldemort, while at the same time spying on him; being a member of The Order who is not well liked by anybody (except maybe McGonagall and Dumbledore); and putting up with tantrums from Harry.
Snape is between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, the Frying Pan and The Fire. How he comes out of it is anybody's guess (and JKR's certainty).
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 26, 2003 5:23 pm (#114 of 2956)
You all have probably read what Alan Rickman said about Snape in his interview on Handbag.com, but I wanted to know what you all thought about it, since this disscusion seems to be pittering out. Interviewer-"The part of Snape seemed so perfect for you... there was something about it which made it look like you were stretched and yet sort of confined at the same time. Did you feel that? Alan Rickman-Good way of putting it, actually. Because that's what Snape's like. There are such still waters in there. And the trouble is that there's so much we don't know yet 'cause JK Rowling hasn't revealed it. I know a couple of things about all that, that you don't and I'm not telling..." Any theories as to what you guys think he might mean?
Gina R Snape - Nov 26, 2003 5:48 pm (#115 of 2956)
Tim, I am indeed soooo pleased to hear your thoughts on Severus being influenced. And, Tripe, Sybil? bwa ha ha ha
Tpujiko4444, I have many thoughts on Alan's quote. Still waters do run deep indeed. But I think what Alan is saying most is just that Snape is a very complex character, which we all know already (well, almost all of us). And of course, Alan is being a tease to us fans. He must be taking lessons from JRK
popkin - Nov 27, 2003 12:26 am (#116 of 2956)
Edited by Nov 27, 2003 12:29 am
I know this has probably been discussed to death somewhere already, and I've probably read the discussions, but I don't remember the answer right now, SO.....how is it possible that LV would not know where Snape's "loyalties lie" when he made them absolutely clear to Quirrel at several junctures in SS/PS? Since LV was literally in Quirrel's head, he would know exactly where Snape stood, wouldn't he? So, how can Snape still be spying for the order?
Gina R Snape - Nov 27, 2003 9:49 am (#117 of 2956)
Yes, popkin. There is a thread entitled "Does Voldemort Know About Snape?"
Here: fidelio "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 8/30/03 10:36am
HP Fan - Nov 27, 2003 12:46 pm (#118 of 2956)
I was just going to comment that still water have a habit of running deep but it seems that Gina's beaten me to it! Oh well - still got it in :-)
I think that he may be meaning that Snape is the type of character which is very demanding to act for quite a number of reasons. Colin Firth in a BBC book on the making of 'Pride and Prejudice' says something like with the character of Darcy he had to create a performance that was [this isn't an exact quote just the gist of it as I can remember it.] very dynamic, multi-layered and multifaceted and then not act it. I. e., he had to come up with a performance and then cram it into a very narrow framework on camera so as to hint that something is there but not to reveal it properly until right at the end of the film. If he's meaning something along those lines then Snape seems to be just that sort of character. Thus Rickman has to know more than we do at this point in order to hint at it so that when the last book and eventually last film come out the audience isn't sitting there as the credits go up and saying "Well there was no indication that he was going to do X, Y or Z, or was like that." For JKR it's so much easier as words can convey things but be deliberately obscuring at the same time. In acting its as much words, facial expressions and actions which convey things. So Rickman's got to act these things yet at the same time suppress them.
Has that made any sense to anyone? If not can someone perhaps express it better than me? I've sort of confused myself. [Which isn't very hard really!]
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 12:26 am (#119 of 2956)
Yeah, that made a lot of sense. I honestly was not quite sure what to make of that quote, but what you said HP fan sounds very likly. Awesome.
Little Ginny - Nov 28, 2003 9:57 am (#120 of 2956)
Hey, there is someone else who likes to compare Snape to Darcy! Have you actually read the book? Because I think they have really much in common, and I do totally agree with HP fan about what you said that they both have layers of character they are hiding.
If you didn't read the book, I can only recommend it! It's great!
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 12:02 pm (#121 of 2956)
Um, Little Ginny, if "you" is reffering to me, then yes I have read all of the books, and even the two book JKR wrote for charity. I have never thought about it, but yes I think that they have some things in common, like holding grudges, and being a petty. However, I think that there are more differences than simularities.
Gina R Snape - Nov 28, 2003 2:49 pm (#122 of 2956)
Heh, heh. Tpujiko4444, I don't think she meant have you read the HP books. I think she meant did you read Pride and Prejudice.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 3:25 pm (#123 of 2956)
Oh yeah, that makes much more sense.
Little Ginny - Nov 29, 2003 2:57 am (#124 of 2956)
That's actually what I meant. Besides, I did not say they are like twin brothers, I just said I like to compare them, because I cannot believe that Snape is THAT bad after all.
HP Fan - Nov 29, 2003 4:58 am (#125 of 2956)
Yep I have read all the HP books including the charity ones and Pride and Prejudice - they're my all time favorites. A bit of a contrast between them though. Glad my last post made sense to someone. I have habit of confusing myself! I'm glad it doesn't translate to others. It defiantly going to be interesting seeing in which direction JKR takes Snape.
Little Ginny - Nov 30, 2003 3:16 am (#126 of 2956)
I think she will let him develop for the best. I think he might actually forgive Lupin some time, but only in book seven, I think, when he will forgive Harry.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 30, 2003 9:22 am (#127 of 2956)
I agree that he has to forgive Harry, but what cataclysm do you think will bring this about?
Maybe Harry will have to save him... although this might even deepen his resentment, as it evidently did with James.
If that makes any sense.
SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 10:25 am (#128 of 2956)
Psychedelic Enchantress: Maybe Harry will have to save him... although this might even deepen his resentment, as it evidently did with James.
We've been told two versions of that story. Dumbledore made it sound like James just did something to save Snape, and Snape hated the obligation.
Snape told a version where he had been set up by James and friends to encounter Lupin in werewolf form, so the danger he was in was their fault to begin with.
Does he resent having his life saved, or resent having his life threatened?
On another topic, here's a thought to cast upon the flames:
How do we know that the "memory" Harry viewed is absolutely genuine? Could the pensieve distinguish between a real memory and one that is fake or has been embellished by the mind of the person who held it?
We all "remember" things which aren't exactly the way those things happened. Lies to ourselves can eventually become the truth as we know it.
There was conflict between James and Snape, but did the incident of James dangling Snape in the air just because he was bored really happen that way? Could it have been caused by something else that didn't make it into the pensieve? Could it have been mostly a fabrication left there on the chance that Harry would be able to access the pensieve?
Whether the memories fully are real or not, Snape, so secretive, waits until Harry is in the office with him to remove those memories and leaves the pensieve in plain sight. If the memories were removed earlier, and the pensieve stored away, Harry would never even know Snape had it, let alone be able to look into it. Is this a blatant error in judgement by someone quite used to keeping secrets, or a set up?
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 30, 2003 10:53 am (#129 of 2956)
Well, the basic outline and the motive for what happened seemed to be right because Harry talked to Lupin and Sirius about it, and they pretty much confirmed the story.
Little Ginny - Nov 30, 2003 12:56 pm (#130 of 2956)
What cataclysm do you think will bring this about?
Perhaps Dumbledore will have the power to unite them both, as he tried with Sirius and Snape.
It might also be that Lupin as the only surviving Marauder will apologize to Snape.
Sly Girl - Nov 30, 2003 1:20 pm (#131 of 2956)
The importance of the Penseive scene is that it teaches Harry that there are many sides to the 'truth' and that even the truth based on memory can be wrong or one sided. He sees Snape's interpretation of the events, he hears Sirius's and Lupin's. Was his father a bullying git or was there something more going on? Was Snape just a wizard-geek who got picked on or was he something else? Harry uses that scene to realize that truth is not in black and white and that the reality is in the middle somewhere. Which sort of explains his new understanding of Snape at the end of the book. Harry is beginning to learn that not eveything is as it seems and not everything has just one side of right and wrong. Including Snape.
SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 2:57 pm (#132 of 2956)
Now if only Snape could learn the same thing that a fifteen year old boy has begun to learn, there might be some kind of truce between the two. Especially since it's the father, not the son, who committed the crimes.
I honestly don't see what Harry can say to make things better. "I'm sorry about what my father, who I never even met since he was killed when I was one year old, did to you twenty seven years ago"?
Snape rules the argument, because Snape began it and Snape pursued it, well before Harry had the least inkling of why. Only Snape can begin to mend the rift.
Choices - Nov 30, 2003 5:10 pm (#133 of 2956)
If James and his friends bullied Snape, perhaps that is why he grew up to be such a bully. Look at the way he treats Neville and Harry and sometimes Hermione and Ron. He terrorizes poor Neville and he is mean and certainly unfair to Harry in Potions class. I have been on the fence about Snape, but he has such a definite cruel streak that I am starting to lean towards thinking him evil.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 30, 2003 5:58 pm (#134 of 2956)
Well, it could also have to do with his family background, which does not seem to be all that good,(unless, that just happened to be an argument, and not a good indicator of what usually went on in that house,I doubt it, but that is besides the point). I think Snape wants to be this big bad wizard, that people respect, and perhaps even fear, and I think that also is a big reason for why he treats people under him the way he does. Eh, Choices, you might be starting to think that he is evil, but I appreciate that side of him for various reasons. Two of those being I think that he is very funny, and he does do very good things.
Hem Hem - Nov 30, 2003 9:10 pm (#135 of 2956)
Since you brought up Snape's desires in your last post, Tpujiko, I decided to post a link to a really compelling comic that Gina had shown us a while back. You may have seen it before, but for those readers who haven't, it's really interesting and worth a look...it's all about Sanpe's wishes. Check it out: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Blast - Dec 1, 2003 3:08 am (#136 of 2956)
I posted this idea on the Neville thread but maybe it belongs here too. Does Snape bully Neville because of the prophesy? Is it his way of protecting Neville? If Neville doesn't develope his abilities, he won't become a great Wizard. Neville is already in is own mind nearly a Squib. Gran over the years has not helped his confidence by treating him the way she does. But is Snape reinforcing the let's keep Neville down bit. Harry has the protection of Privet Dr., Neville does not. I am sure that the prophesy that is known Neville's name must of been bantered around too. If Neville does not develope into a powerful wizard, he won't be a threat to anybody.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 1, 2003 3:31 am (#137 of 2956)
Did'nt Dumbledore say that he and now Harry were the only ones who knew the whole Prophesy, (I do not have my copy of OotP with me, so I cannot look). Even if Snape was the man who was thrown out for listening in on the Prophesy, I do not think that he heard enough to know that Neville could have been The One. Yes, I saw the comic before, Hem Hem, I liked it anyway, and I thought it was interesting. I think that ideas behind it are plausible and realstic.
Peregrine - Dec 1, 2003 9:35 am (#138 of 2956)
Ack, this always happens with the Snape thread?leave for a few days and it snowballs.
SJ Rand, I was thinking the same thing you were regarding Snape vs. James. I feel Snape is angry with James (and Lupin) because he thought they were in on the joke and the only reason James saved him was because he ?got cold feet? and was saving his own skin too. It?s not much of a stretch to think that Sirius never confronted Snape and took full responsibility for his actions. I believe that if Snape were aware that James was innocent in the prank, and truly saved his life because it was the right thing to do, Snape wouldn?t hate him and Harry so much.
(By the way, do we have a timeline for the prank? Do we know if it was before or after the Pensieve scene?)
Speaking of the Pensieve, I believe that it does record all of the facts. I think it?s a lot like the omnioculars. Harry was able to watch the Quidditch match in slow motion through them. But he would have been following the action close up which means he would be swishing them around as opposed to holding them still and watching the entire pitch. If he were moving them around, they would somehow have to record the action that was going on out of his eye-line, in order to replay it a second later. In other words, say player A is on the west side of the pitch and player B is on the east side. Harry has his omnioculars aimed at player A, but they still have to record what player B is doing so Harry can see it a second later. Therefore, they?re recording all of the action, not just what they?re pointed at. Did that make a bit of sense?
SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 11:34 am (#139 of 2956)
Blast end newt: >>Does Snape bully Neville because of the prophesy?
I've wondered about that as well.
>Is it his way of protecting Neville?
Why does anyone think that Snape is protecting anybody? Okay, Snape protected Harry in the Quidditch match. That was sort of explained as paying back a life debt. But what didn't Snape do in that same book?
Hmmm. Snape somehow didn't bother to tell anybody about what Quirrell was up to, even though he had enough information to be certain.
PS/SS American page 290:
Harry speaking to Quirrell about Snape:
"I saw you and Snape in the forest ---" he blurted out.
"Yes", said Quirrell idly, walking around the mirror to look at the back. "He was on to me by that time, trying to figure out how far I'd got.....
Snape knew what Quirrell was up to, he just didn't know how far Quirrell had progressed in being able to break the protective spells. Didn't Snape think Dumbledore might have a slight interest in that?
But somehow Snape is protecting people?
Tpujiko4444: >>Did'nt Dumbledore say that he and now Harry were the only ones who knew the whole Prophesy,
Voldemort knew enough about the prophesy to go after Harry in the first place, so he probably knew the part where Neville could have been The One as well. Or his spies could have reported that the MoM was watching both of these children, and Voldemort went after Harry first, after which he wasn't in any position to go for Neville.
Edit:
I'm going to pull back a bit ffrom my PS/SS reference. I really don't think Rowling knew where her story would be heading when she wrote that first book, so happenings in it are probably useless to a series overview.
Gina R Snape - Dec 1, 2003 12:46 pm (#140 of 2956)
We don't know what Dumbledore knew. We don't know what Snape informed Dumbledore. But I, for one, am certain he reported everything to Dumbledore.
But then, I happen to subscribe to the theory that DD allowed certain things in the first year to set Harry up. In other words, he wanted to see what the kid was made of. He made sure Harry knew how the mirror worked, for example. I only don't think anyone knew that Voldemort was actually IN Quirrell's head.
I also do think Snape acts in his own way to prepare and protect the children--Neville included. I think Snape was the one who overheard the prophesy (see My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophesy thread). But even if I am wrong and he wasn't there, I also think Snape and McGonagall are his "righthand men" so to speak, and he would make sure they knew. Plus, the Dark Lord knew there were two kids to go after. So Snape could have found out that way. He knew about the "when the seventh month dies" part, just not the part about Harry having powers the Dark Lord knows not, and whatever the last words were which I cannot remember at this second!
Lisaren - Dec 1, 2003 1:05 pm (#141 of 2956)
I do not like the Snape character as a man, but as a character in the Harry Potter books, they would be no where near as good without him. His character and bulling tactics are essential to the overall story. I do not believe Snape is EVIL and will turn on Dumbledore and the Order. I also do not believe Snape is a nice human being. I think he is a self centered git who can not look past his own hurts or past to see people for who they are and not how his preconceptions paint them (James was arrogant and priviliged i.e. Harry must be just like James because he looks like him). A good ending for Snape would be for him to mature as much as the children have done in the previos 5 books, which he has shown no signs of doing.
SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 3:31 pm (#142 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: >>But then, I happen to subscribe to the theory that DD allowed certain things in the first year to set Harry up.
So do I. It was even brought up in the book. I only know that because I just finished re-reading it.
Lisaren: >> A good ending for Snape would be for him to mature as much as the children have done in the previos 5 books, which he has shown no signs of doing.
Agreed on both counts.
. . I mentioned re-reading the series. I'm only on the second book now, first re-read, but it's been mentioned at least three times by Harry that he thinks Snape can read minds. Could be because the sternest teachers always seem to know what's going on in students' heads since the teacher always acts the same and therefore always gets the same reactions, or a heads up on how good a Legimens Snape really is.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 1, 2003 4:26 pm (#143 of 2956)
I sort off hope not. I before the 5th book, I liked that Snape was a good detective and used logic to know what people were doing, instead of magic. But, either theory is equally valed. Maybe, Snape would not or cannot read people's minds that often. We only know that Snape is a skilled Occulemens, so he might not be as skilled in Legimens. P.S. Lisaren, I do not think that Harry, Ron, and Hermione have matured all that much. Harry is maturing, but I really do not think they have matured. But, eh, they are just 15 now, so I do not hold that against them all that much.
Gina R Snape - Dec 1, 2003 7:24 pm (#144 of 2956)
I agree, Tpujiko4444. There's something much cooler about Snape being smart and logical and a good detective than just using magic to see into people's minds. He should be able to do all those things, with style and strategy.
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 1, 2003 10:03 pm (#145 of 2956)
SJ Rand
...or a heads up on how good a Legimens Snape really is.
...or could this be an indication that perhaps Harry too, has an undiscovered talent for Legilimens? there was a discussion previously, I believe on Severus Snape #1 about legimency and occlumency. If I remember correctly, there is some indication in OotP that one must use/have legilimens ability in order to teach occlumency. I wonder if Harry won't prove to be a good occlumen and legilimens? Wasn't that legilimency that he used on the history of magic exam? And not only does Harry feel that Snape can read his mind, but also that Dumbledore can, DD who is also a good occlumens. So, is Harry inadvertanly using his own legilimens ability with DD and Snape?
Blast - Dec 2, 2003 2:58 am (#146 of 2956)
Snape mentions that Harry's ability to throw off the imperius curse is the same force to use occulemency.
Madame Librarian - Dec 2, 2003 8:02 am (#147 of 2956)
A small question:
I thought that eye contact was important in the art of legilimency (and in curses, hexes, charms in general). Doesn't Snape even remind Harry that eye contact is key when he gives the first lesson (sorry, no book available)? What does this mean in terms of the history exam situation? He was behind Patil, n'est pas? Maybe he's really good at it! Maybe we're reading too much into that scene.
Ciao. Barb
Tomoé - Dec 2, 2003 9:46 am (#148 of 2956)
My guess is that Harry legilimencied Voldemort, as they don't need eye contact to see in each other mind. Voldie was a brilliant student after all, he could still remember what he learn in History of Magic, fifty years ago.
SJ Rand - Dec 2, 2003 9:49 am (#149 of 2956)
Mrs. Sirius: >>If I remember correctly, there is some indication in OotP that one must use/have legilimens ability in order to teach occlumency.
I'd also think one would have to be. How can you teach someone how to block if you don't know how to strike? And Snape does get a good view of some presumably very deep childhood memories.
Madame Librarian: >>I thought that eye contact was important in the art of legilimency (and in curses, hexes, charms in general). Doesn't Snape even remind Harry that eye contact is key when he gives the first lesson
Yes, I remember the same thing as you do. Perhaps some other type of connection is possible, as Harry reads Voldemort from a great distance through their connection, or maybe there's another type of mind reading possible. Or it could all be coincidence
I just re-read that Patil scene, and it seems to me that he's accidentally hypnotizing himself, or just falling into a quasi hypnotic state, helped by his ongoing lack of sleep. It could really go either way, but I think he knows the answers himself and the rest is just stream of consciousness.
Back to Snape, doesn't he have a habit of staring intently at students, particularly when he's angry? He could pretty much be skimming the topmost thoughts of half the student body and who would be any the wiser?
Orchal Fireb - Dec 2, 2003 11:32 am (#150 of 2956)
Ohh that would be a really cool thought, if Snape was scanning the memories of his poor students, but if that was the case why threaten Harry with the Veritiserum, if he could just take a gander at his thoughts.
Gina: I think you're right about Snape and McGonagall having a co-worker friendship in one sense. I'm not really sure I think that they do - it's a gut reaction partly based around that scene in OoP where he starts towards her and then stops almost as if he's pulling himself up possibly because Malfoy is there. Also where she says think in PoA something like 'Potter do try and win, or we'll be out of the running for the Xth year in a row, as Snape was kind enough to remind me" Not exact quote and couldn't remember the number of years and also in PS again not exact as haven't either books in front of me I'm sure she says that they [Griffindor] need a better team than the year before and goes on to say she couldn't look Snape in the eye for weeks. It just strikes me a bit like my relationship with some of my friends they tend to rub it in if I don't do as well as them at something and I return the compliment. [I'm not sure if that makes sense].
However I must question how you think Dumbledore isn't able to defend himself where you say "Which is why I think he can play around sportingly with McGonagall--she's one of the few who he has no fear can protect herself (plus, I do think they have a genuine co-worker friendship." it just gives me the impression [and I could have misunderstood so could you clear it up for me if I have.] that you feel she can protect herself where Dumbledore can't. Or do you mean [just come to me while typing] that because he's playing the spy game and knows so much about Dumbledore that he can't relax around him in case Voldemort manages to get at his guard. Does that make sense? I start typing and then doubt myself as to whether I'm making any sense at all. Even if I start out with a very clear idea of what I want to say.
My take on Snape is that he is much more than a one dimensional character, he's way too intriguing, we think we know a lot about him but if you come to write it down in a list we know very little. I can't wait for the next two books as I feel JKR has some very startling things about him up her sleeve.
Oh yeah I think I want to join the in Detention with Snape club too!
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 3:06 pm (#102 of 2956)
Gee, I expected to log on this morning and have someone remind me that Snape is a superb *occlumens* not *legilimens* but never mind But then we have seen Harry under the impression that Snape can read his mind, so I think he is sufficiently accomplished in 'natural' legilimancy, for want of a better term. I thought there was a distinct difference in being a legilimens (natural) and casting the legilimency spell... Personally, I got the impression he can see/read thoughts or whatever *briefly*, but for the sustained effort required to teach Harry to skill of occlumency, he needed to resort to the Legilimens! spell. So he may not have been "probing and seeking" in the past, just "picking up" with the barest touch, maybe even unconsciously before he learned to control his talent.
timrew - Nov 23, 2003 3:11 pm (#103 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
I was thinking about the same thing myself, Gina. When Harry is having a go at Snape for always referring to Voldemort as, "The Dark Lord". I think this is part of Snape's cover. He daren't refer to Voldemort any other way, unless he slips up at the next Death Eater meeting.....
"You know, I was thinking, Voldie, old buddy.......oops!"
I think Snape is on a knife edge all the time, seeing as he has to occupy both worlds. Harry and co. see him as mean and distant because of this; whereas, perhaps he is a soft and cuddly old teddy bear at heart!
Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 3:20 pm (#104 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
This is what I was getting at with the "does anybody know the real Snape (apart from Gina, of course )" part of my post. He *can't* be himself because of his work as a spy (although I doubt he has a Care Bear. Maybe a stuffed vulture... no that wouldn't work...)
Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 3:59 pm (#105 of 2956)
A stuffed vulture? Ha! That's why he gave the vulture hat to Dumbledore... he didn't want to wear a relative on his head.
I do agree with tim that he absolutely cannot take a chance with how he refers to Voldie. I also think that there's something about mentioning the name that might draw attention from Voldie himself. As you said, tim, Snape is on a knife edge.
I like what you said, Nox, about him being a natural Legilimens. Sensing emotions, probably being able to guess correctly in most instances what someone feels, but actually probing deeply needs the spell itself.
Gina has now been elected the president of the "Detention with Snape" Club. Poor guy... we'll wear him out.
Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 4:03 pm (#106 of 2956)
I said earlier on the "Saying the name of Voldemort" thread (I think that's where it came up) that the reason Snape gets sooo upset when Harry says Voldemort's name is due a fear that this allows V. easier entry into one's mind.
Ciao. Barb
Killian - Nov 23, 2003 5:31 pm (#107 of 2956)
Maybe the reason why he doesn't say Voldemort is partially out of fear and partially out of the fact that he doesn't want to make it become to common out of fear of the fact that he might slip up. But I was wondering something else as well. One of Dumbledore's greatest assets as well as greatest problems is that he is, in all respect, by far too trusting. I don't want to sound paranoid about Snape, but isn't it possible that he may be acting as a double agent but not in the way that they think? Saying that he's spying for the Order while in actuality he's feeding them false information mixed in with truths about Voldemort because he is still working for Voldemort? And now that we know that he's a skilled Legilimens and Occlumens, isn't it possible for him to lie to Dumbledore's face without fear of being discovered if he can supposedly do the same with Voldemort? I don't really believe this myself, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Gina R Snape - Nov 23, 2003 8:39 pm (#108 of 2956)
Going back to HP Fan's question about DD. I don't think Dumbledore has any problem defending himself. But I don't think he and Snape are friends like Snape and McGonagall are. Dumbledore is Voldemort's enemy, so Snape couldn't appear friendly with him. But even if that were not an issue, I see Dumbledore as needing to keep a measure of distance from Snape so that he can remain an authority figure, and perhaps something of a father figure to Snape.
We have yet to have a scene between the two other than DD giving Snape directives, and the Christmas crackers scene (and DD was totally taking the piss out of Snape after the boggart incident). Snape was not amused, but DD can pull that sort of thing off. I just don't think Snape could reciprocate on that level with DD the way he could with McGonagall. She and he are much more on a peer level. I hope that makes sense.
Caput Draconis - Nov 23, 2003 11:12 pm (#109 of 2956)
"I see Snape as isolated because he does not have the luxury of relaxing and letting people in for risk of his own, Harry's and Dumbledore's security (among others)."
Gosh yes. And surely that is at the heart of any loneliness we see in his character - imagine seeing the expression of basic emotions as a luxury - and one that is denied to you. The nature of his work for the order means he must view everyone he knows or meets as an enemy that must be fooled, or a ?friend? that must be distanced. And to do this he must literally shut his mind ? or force his way into the minds of others ? which will only increase any emptiness within. There may be an echo of emotional empathy but that?s all it is, an echo, a stolen glimpse of what it might be like to drop his guard. And all this to protect a boy who (in Snape?s eyes) is surrounded by the love that he himself has always been denied or had to shun.
I think he?s been in a similar state of loneliness his whole life, especially during his time at school, and this was perhaps one of the tools the Dark Lord used to recruit him in the first place. Promising him an escape from the walls he created even at so young an age to block the taunts of his peers (I?d like to know about this ?gang of Slytherins? he supposedly hung around?) or the yet to be properly explained issues at home, offering him respect, acceptance, revenge...
Maybe it only enhances Severus? isolation for him to know that his current situation was brought about in part by the need to redeem himself of his Death Eater past, but if the consequence of his past actions is to find himself even further trapped in the loneliness he was trying to free himself of?no wonder he?s messed up.
Do I get detention for saying you?re messed up, sir? And I adore that idea about McGonagall being Snape?s only outlet to relax a little?
Weeny Owl - Nov 24, 2003 9:57 am (#110 of 2956)
Killian - "I don't want to sound paranoid about Snape, but isn't it possible that he may be acting as a double agent but not in the way that they think?"
I've changed my opinion of Snape quite a bit (thanks, Gina!), but still, in the back of my mind, there is a seed of doubt as to his true intentions.
I do feel that overall he will be loyal to Dumbledore and the Order, but if something major were to happen, I could see him allowing his darker side to flourish.
One concern I have is that the Pensieve incident will cause him to detest Harry even more than he already does, and that he might, maybe not even realizing it consciously, not pass along information that is critical. I don't think he would do anything obvious in the next book that would harm Harry, but he might do (or fail to do) something that could get an Order member hurt or killed.
Since I do feel he's on the side of the angels, I could see him regretting whatever he did or didn't do, and finally coming to terms with his feelings about Harry and James and letting go of his hatred.
I would like to see JKR having Harry and Snape hash out their problems and have a more mature relationship. It wouldn't mean that they actually liked each other but that they could respect each other and work together. Not in public, perhaps, but at least when they're alone or with other members of the Order.
HP Fan - Nov 24, 2003 12:34 pm (#111 of 2956)
Thanks Gina, I was tired when I read the last lot of posts. I didn't really take in what I was reading. I get what you mean now. Weeny Owl I really want to see Harry and Snape come to a more mature relationship and a better understanding as well. But both of them have got to let go of their pride. Plus with Voldemort back on the scene, I doubt that in book 6 that its going to happen. Hopefully it'll happen in book 7, but even then probably near the end. I think that the pensive scene is a tantalising hint of what made Snape the way he is, as is the scene when Harry manages to break into Snape's memory. Gina I like the idea of DD taking the Mickey out of Snape with the Vulture hat in the cracker.
Gina R Snape - Nov 24, 2003 1:35 pm (#112 of 2956)
Oh yeah. I hope that they show that in the movie. It's actually one of my favourite 'non-crucial' scenes in the book. The look on Snape's face is priceless I'm sure! Being forced to play along with opening the wizard crackers, and then getting Neville's gran's hat. Hee. In fact, I can just imagine him fuming as it came up in a staff meeting. Because you know all the staff must have heard about it from the kids, then laughed and talked about it. Bwa ha ha. Poor Severus.
Anyway, wasn't that the scene where Trelawney mentions 13 people at the table? So, hopefully that will be deemed 'important enough' not to be cut. But I'm not holding my breath.
Edit: By the way, I've really particularly enjoyed this thread lately. I'm just so pleased to have influenced some people's thoughts on how they see Snape. And we even have a Snape for Detention club now. Wow!
timrew - Nov 26, 2003 4:27 pm (#113 of 2956)
Like you, Gina, I hope that this scene is left in, for the part you've mentioned, but especially for the banter between McGonagall and Trelawney - but with a book the size of GOF it might not be.
You're bringing me round about Snape. From being the dyed-in-the-wool Death Eater who will end up going back to Voldie, I'm beginning to see another side to our dear old Potions Master.
He has a lot to put up with. Preserving his loyalty to Voldemort, while at the same time spying on him; being a member of The Order who is not well liked by anybody (except maybe McGonagall and Dumbledore); and putting up with tantrums from Harry.
Snape is between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, the Frying Pan and The Fire. How he comes out of it is anybody's guess (and JKR's certainty).
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 26, 2003 5:23 pm (#114 of 2956)
You all have probably read what Alan Rickman said about Snape in his interview on Handbag.com, but I wanted to know what you all thought about it, since this disscusion seems to be pittering out. Interviewer-"The part of Snape seemed so perfect for you... there was something about it which made it look like you were stretched and yet sort of confined at the same time. Did you feel that? Alan Rickman-Good way of putting it, actually. Because that's what Snape's like. There are such still waters in there. And the trouble is that there's so much we don't know yet 'cause JK Rowling hasn't revealed it. I know a couple of things about all that, that you don't and I'm not telling..." Any theories as to what you guys think he might mean?
Gina R Snape - Nov 26, 2003 5:48 pm (#115 of 2956)
Tim, I am indeed soooo pleased to hear your thoughts on Severus being influenced. And, Tripe, Sybil? bwa ha ha ha
Tpujiko4444, I have many thoughts on Alan's quote. Still waters do run deep indeed. But I think what Alan is saying most is just that Snape is a very complex character, which we all know already (well, almost all of us). And of course, Alan is being a tease to us fans. He must be taking lessons from JRK
popkin - Nov 27, 2003 12:26 am (#116 of 2956)
Edited by Nov 27, 2003 12:29 am
I know this has probably been discussed to death somewhere already, and I've probably read the discussions, but I don't remember the answer right now, SO.....how is it possible that LV would not know where Snape's "loyalties lie" when he made them absolutely clear to Quirrel at several junctures in SS/PS? Since LV was literally in Quirrel's head, he would know exactly where Snape stood, wouldn't he? So, how can Snape still be spying for the order?
Gina R Snape - Nov 27, 2003 9:49 am (#117 of 2956)
Yes, popkin. There is a thread entitled "Does Voldemort Know About Snape?"
Here: fidelio "Does Voldemort know about Snape?" 8/30/03 10:36am
HP Fan - Nov 27, 2003 12:46 pm (#118 of 2956)
I was just going to comment that still water have a habit of running deep but it seems that Gina's beaten me to it! Oh well - still got it in :-)
I think that he may be meaning that Snape is the type of character which is very demanding to act for quite a number of reasons. Colin Firth in a BBC book on the making of 'Pride and Prejudice' says something like with the character of Darcy he had to create a performance that was [this isn't an exact quote just the gist of it as I can remember it.] very dynamic, multi-layered and multifaceted and then not act it. I. e., he had to come up with a performance and then cram it into a very narrow framework on camera so as to hint that something is there but not to reveal it properly until right at the end of the film. If he's meaning something along those lines then Snape seems to be just that sort of character. Thus Rickman has to know more than we do at this point in order to hint at it so that when the last book and eventually last film come out the audience isn't sitting there as the credits go up and saying "Well there was no indication that he was going to do X, Y or Z, or was like that." For JKR it's so much easier as words can convey things but be deliberately obscuring at the same time. In acting its as much words, facial expressions and actions which convey things. So Rickman's got to act these things yet at the same time suppress them.
Has that made any sense to anyone? If not can someone perhaps express it better than me? I've sort of confused myself. [Which isn't very hard really!]
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 12:26 am (#119 of 2956)
Yeah, that made a lot of sense. I honestly was not quite sure what to make of that quote, but what you said HP fan sounds very likly. Awesome.
Little Ginny - Nov 28, 2003 9:57 am (#120 of 2956)
Hey, there is someone else who likes to compare Snape to Darcy! Have you actually read the book? Because I think they have really much in common, and I do totally agree with HP fan about what you said that they both have layers of character they are hiding.
If you didn't read the book, I can only recommend it! It's great!
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 12:02 pm (#121 of 2956)
Um, Little Ginny, if "you" is reffering to me, then yes I have read all of the books, and even the two book JKR wrote for charity. I have never thought about it, but yes I think that they have some things in common, like holding grudges, and being a petty. However, I think that there are more differences than simularities.
Gina R Snape - Nov 28, 2003 2:49 pm (#122 of 2956)
Heh, heh. Tpujiko4444, I don't think she meant have you read the HP books. I think she meant did you read Pride and Prejudice.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 28, 2003 3:25 pm (#123 of 2956)
Oh yeah, that makes much more sense
. Little Ginny - Nov 29, 2003 2:57 am (#124 of 2956)
That's actually what I meant. Besides, I did not say they are like twin brothers, I just said I like to compare them, because I cannot believe that Snape is THAT bad after all.
HP Fan - Nov 29, 2003 4:58 am (#125 of 2956)
Yep I have read all the HP books including the charity ones and Pride and Prejudice - they're my all time favorites. A bit of a contrast between them though. Glad my last post made sense to someone. I have habit of confusing myself! I'm glad it doesn't translate to others. It defiantly going to be interesting seeing in which direction JKR takes Snape.
Little Ginny - Nov 30, 2003 3:16 am (#126 of 2956)
I think she will let him develop for the best. I think he might actually forgive Lupin some time, but only in book seven, I think, when he will forgive Harry.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 30, 2003 9:22 am (#127 of 2956)
I agree that he has to forgive Harry, but what cataclysm do you think will bring this about?
Maybe Harry will have to save him... although this might even deepen his resentment, as it evidently did with James.
If that makes any sense.
SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 10:25 am (#128 of 2956)
Psychedelic Enchantress: Maybe Harry will have to save him... although this might even deepen his resentment, as it evidently did with James.
We've been told two versions of that story. Dumbledore made it sound like James just did something to save Snape, and Snape hated the obligation.
Snape told a version where he had been set up by James and friends to encounter Lupin in werewolf form, so the danger he was in was their fault to begin with.
Does he resent having his life saved, or resent having his life threatened?
On another topic, here's a thought to cast upon the flames:
How do we know that the "memory" Harry viewed is absolutely genuine? Could the pensieve distinguish between a real memory and one that is fake or has been embellished by the mind of the person who held it?
We all "remember" things which aren't exactly the way those things happened. Lies to ourselves can eventually become the truth as we know it.
There was conflict between James and Snape, but did the incident of James dangling Snape in the air just because he was bored really happen that way? Could it have been caused by something else that didn't make it into the pensieve? Could it have been mostly a fabrication left there on the chance that Harry would be able to access the pensieve?
Whether the memories fully are real or not, Snape, so secretive, waits until Harry is in the office with him to remove those memories and leaves the pensieve in plain sight. If the memories were removed earlier, and the pensieve stored away, Harry would never even know Snape had it, let alone be able to look into it. Is this a blatant error in judgement by someone quite used to keeping secrets, or a set up?
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 30, 2003 10:53 am (#129 of 2956)
Well, the basic outline and the motive for what happened seemed to be right because Harry talked to Lupin and Sirius about it, and they pretty much confirmed the story.
Little Ginny - Nov 30, 2003 12:56 pm (#130 of 2956)
What cataclysm do you think will bring this about?
Perhaps Dumbledore will have the power to unite them both, as he tried with Sirius and Snape.
It might also be that Lupin as the only surviving Marauder will apologize to Snape.
Sly Girl - Nov 30, 2003 1:20 pm (#131 of 2956)
The importance of the Penseive scene is that it teaches Harry that there are many sides to the 'truth' and that even the truth based on memory can be wrong or one sided. He sees Snape's interpretation of the events, he hears Sirius's and Lupin's. Was his father a bullying git or was there something more going on? Was Snape just a wizard-geek who got picked on or was he something else? Harry uses that scene to realize that truth is not in black and white and that the reality is in the middle somewhere. Which sort of explains his new understanding of Snape at the end of the book. Harry is beginning to learn that not eveything is as it seems and not everything has just one side of right and wrong. Including Snape.
SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 2:57 pm (#132 of 2956)
Now if only Snape could learn the same thing that a fifteen year old boy has begun to learn, there might be some kind of truce between the two. Especially since it's the father, not the son, who committed the crimes.
I honestly don't see what Harry can say to make things better. "I'm sorry about what my father, who I never even met since he was killed when I was one year old, did to you twenty seven years ago"?
Snape rules the argument, because Snape began it and Snape pursued it, well before Harry had the least inkling of why. Only Snape can begin to mend the rift.
Choices - Nov 30, 2003 5:10 pm (#133 of 2956)
If James and his friends bullied Snape, perhaps that is why he grew up to be such a bully. Look at the way he treats Neville and Harry and sometimes Hermione and Ron. He terrorizes poor Neville and he is mean and certainly unfair to Harry in Potions class. I have been on the fence about Snape, but he has such a definite cruel streak that I am starting to lean towards thinking him evil.
Tpujiko4444 - Nov 30, 2003 5:58 pm (#134 of 2956)
Well, it could also have to do with his family background, which does not seem to be all that good,(unless, that just happened to be an argument, and not a good indicator of what usually went on in that house,I doubt it, but that is besides the point). I think Snape wants to be this big bad wizard, that people respect, and perhaps even fear, and I think that also is a big reason for why he treats people under him the way he does. Eh, Choices, you might be starting to think that he is evil, but I appreciate that side of him for various reasons. Two of those being I think that he is very funny, and he does do very good things.
Hem Hem - Nov 30, 2003 9:10 pm (#135 of 2956)
Since you brought up Snape's desires in your last post, Tpujiko, I decided to post a link to a really compelling comic that Gina had shown us a while back. You may have seen it before, but for those readers who haven't, it's really interesting and worth a look...it's all about Sanpe's wishes. Check it out: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Blast - Dec 1, 2003 3:08 am (#136 of 2956)
I posted this idea on the Neville thread but maybe it belongs here too. Does Snape bully Neville because of the prophesy? Is it his way of protecting Neville? If Neville doesn't develope his abilities, he won't become a great Wizard. Neville is already in is own mind nearly a Squib. Gran over the years has not helped his confidence by treating him the way she does. But is Snape reinforcing the let's keep Neville down bit. Harry has the protection of Privet Dr., Neville does not. I am sure that the prophesy that is known Neville's name must of been bantered around too. If Neville does not develope into a powerful wizard, he won't be a threat to anybody.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 1, 2003 3:31 am (#137 of 2956)
Did'nt Dumbledore say that he and now Harry were the only ones who knew the whole Prophesy, (I do not have my copy of OotP with me, so I cannot look). Even if Snape was the man who was thrown out for listening in on the Prophesy, I do not think that he heard enough to know that Neville could have been The One. Yes, I saw the comic before, Hem Hem, I liked it anyway, and I thought it was interesting. I think that ideas behind it are plausible and realstic.
Peregrine - Dec 1, 2003 9:35 am (#138 of 2956)
Ack, this always happens with the Snape thread?leave for a few days and it snowballs.
SJ Rand, I was thinking the same thing you were regarding Snape vs. James. I feel Snape is angry with James (and Lupin) because he thought they were in on the joke and the only reason James saved him was because he ?got cold feet? and was saving his own skin too. It?s not much of a stretch to think that Sirius never confronted Snape and took full responsibility for his actions. I believe that if Snape were aware that James was innocent in the prank, and truly saved his life because it was the right thing to do, Snape wouldn?t hate him and Harry so much.
(By the way, do we have a timeline for the prank? Do we know if it was before or after the Pensieve scene?)
Speaking of the Pensieve, I believe that it does record all of the facts. I think it?s a lot like the omnioculars. Harry was able to watch the Quidditch match in slow motion through them. But he would have been following the action close up which means he would be swishing them around as opposed to holding them still and watching the entire pitch. If he were moving them around, they would somehow have to record the action that was going on out of his eye-line, in order to replay it a second later. In other words, say player A is on the west side of the pitch and player B is on the east side. Harry has his omnioculars aimed at player A, but they still have to record what player B is doing so Harry can see it a second later. Therefore, they?re recording all of the action, not just what they?re pointed at. Did that make a bit of sense?
SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 11:34 am (#139 of 2956)
Blast end newt: >>Does Snape bully Neville because of the prophesy?
I've wondered about that as well.
>Is it his way of protecting Neville?
Why does anyone think that Snape is protecting anybody? Okay, Snape protected Harry in the Quidditch match. That was sort of explained as paying back a life debt. But what didn't Snape do in that same book?
Hmmm. Snape somehow didn't bother to tell anybody about what Quirrell was up to, even though he had enough information to be certain.
PS/SS American page 290:
Harry speaking to Quirrell about Snape:
"I saw you and Snape in the forest ---" he blurted out.
"Yes", said Quirrell idly, walking around the mirror to look at the back. "He was on to me by that time, trying to figure out how far I'd got.....
Snape knew what Quirrell was up to, he just didn't know how far Quirrell had progressed in being able to break the protective spells. Didn't Snape think Dumbledore might have a slight interest in that?
But somehow Snape is protecting people?
Tpujiko4444: >>Did'nt Dumbledore say that he and now Harry were the only ones who knew the whole Prophesy,
Voldemort knew enough about the prophesy to go after Harry in the first place, so he probably knew the part where Neville could have been The One as well. Or his spies could have reported that the MoM was watching both of these children, and Voldemort went after Harry first, after which he wasn't in any position to go for Neville.
Edit:
I'm going to pull back a bit ffrom my PS/SS reference. I really don't think Rowling knew where her story would be heading when she wrote that first book, so happenings in it are probably useless to a series overview.
Gina R Snape - Dec 1, 2003 12:46 pm (#140 of 2956)
We don't know what Dumbledore knew. We don't know what Snape informed Dumbledore. But I, for one, am certain he reported everything to Dumbledore.
But then, I happen to subscribe to the theory that DD allowed certain things in the first year to set Harry up. In other words, he wanted to see what the kid was made of. He made sure Harry knew how the mirror worked, for example. I only don't think anyone knew that Voldemort was actually IN Quirrell's head.
I also do think Snape acts in his own way to prepare and protect the children--Neville included. I think Snape was the one who overheard the prophesy (see My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophesy thread). But even if I am wrong and he wasn't there, I also think Snape and McGonagall are his "righthand men" so to speak, and he would make sure they knew. Plus, the Dark Lord knew there were two kids to go after. So Snape could have found out that way. He knew about the "when the seventh month dies" part, just not the part about Harry having powers the Dark Lord knows not, and whatever the last words were which I cannot remember at this second!
Lisaren - Dec 1, 2003 1:05 pm (#141 of 2956)
I do not like the Snape character as a man, but as a character in the Harry Potter books, they would be no where near as good without him. His character and bulling tactics are essential to the overall story. I do not believe Snape is EVIL and will turn on Dumbledore and the Order. I also do not believe Snape is a nice human being. I think he is a self centered git who can not look past his own hurts or past to see people for who they are and not how his preconceptions paint them (James was arrogant and priviliged i.e. Harry must be just like James because he looks like him). A good ending for Snape would be for him to mature as much as the children have done in the previos 5 books, which he has shown no signs of doing.
SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 3:31 pm (#142 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: >>But then, I happen to subscribe to the theory that DD allowed certain things in the first year to set Harry up.
So do I. It was even brought up in the book. I only know that because I just finished re-reading it.
Lisaren: >> A good ending for Snape would be for him to mature as much as the children have done in the previos 5 books, which he has shown no signs of doing.
Agreed on both counts.
. . I mentioned re-reading the series. I'm only on the second book now, first re-read, but it's been mentioned at least three times by Harry that he thinks Snape can read minds. Could be because the sternest teachers always seem to know what's going on in students' heads since the teacher always acts the same and therefore always gets the same reactions, or a heads up on how good a Legimens Snape really is.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 1, 2003 4:26 pm (#143 of 2956)
I sort off hope not. I before the 5th book, I liked that Snape was a good detective and used logic to know what people were doing, instead of magic. But, either theory is equally valed. Maybe, Snape would not or cannot read people's minds that often. We only know that Snape is a skilled Occulemens, so he might not be as skilled in Legimens. P.S. Lisaren, I do not think that Harry, Ron, and Hermione have matured all that much. Harry is maturing, but I really do not think they have matured. But, eh, they are just 15 now, so I do not hold that against them all that much.
Gina R Snape - Dec 1, 2003 7:24 pm (#144 of 2956)
I agree, Tpujiko4444. There's something much cooler about Snape being smart and logical and a good detective than just using magic to see into people's minds. He should be able to do all those things, with style and strategy.
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 1, 2003 10:03 pm (#145 of 2956)
SJ Rand
...or a heads up on how good a Legimens Snape really is.
...or could this be an indication that perhaps Harry too, has an undiscovered talent for Legilimens? there was a discussion previously, I believe on Severus Snape #1 about legimency and occlumency. If I remember correctly, there is some indication in OotP that one must use/have legilimens ability in order to teach occlumency. I wonder if Harry won't prove to be a good occlumen and legilimens? Wasn't that legilimency that he used on the history of magic exam? And not only does Harry feel that Snape can read his mind, but also that Dumbledore can, DD who is also a good occlumens. So, is Harry inadvertanly using his own legilimens ability with DD and Snape?
Blast - Dec 2, 2003 2:58 am (#146 of 2956)
Snape mentions that Harry's ability to throw off the imperius curse is the same force to use occulemency.
Madame Librarian - Dec 2, 2003 8:02 am (#147 of 2956)
A small question:
I thought that eye contact was important in the art of legilimency (and in curses, hexes, charms in general). Doesn't Snape even remind Harry that eye contact is key when he gives the first lesson (sorry, no book available)? What does this mean in terms of the history exam situation? He was behind Patil, n'est pas? Maybe he's really good at it! Maybe we're reading too much into that scene.
Ciao. Barb
Tomoé - Dec 2, 2003 9:46 am (#148 of 2956)
My guess is that Harry legilimencied Voldemort, as they don't need eye contact to see in each other mind. Voldie was a brilliant student after all, he could still remember what he learn in History of Magic, fifty years ago.
SJ Rand - Dec 2, 2003 9:49 am (#149 of 2956)
Mrs. Sirius: >>If I remember correctly, there is some indication in OotP that one must use/have legilimens ability in order to teach occlumency.
I'd also think one would have to be. How can you teach someone how to block if you don't know how to strike? And Snape does get a good view of some presumably very deep childhood memories.
Madame Librarian: >>I thought that eye contact was important in the art of legilimency (and in curses, hexes, charms in general). Doesn't Snape even remind Harry that eye contact is key when he gives the first lesson
Yes, I remember the same thing as you do. Perhaps some other type of connection is possible, as Harry reads Voldemort from a great distance through their connection, or maybe there's another type of mind reading possible. Or it could all be coincidence
I just re-read that Patil scene, and it seems to me that he's accidentally hypnotizing himself, or just falling into a quasi hypnotic state, helped by his ongoing lack of sleep. It could really go either way, but I think he knows the answers himself and the rest is just stream of consciousness.
Back to Snape, doesn't he have a habit of staring intently at students, particularly when he's angry? He could pretty much be skimming the topmost thoughts of half the student body and who would be any the wiser?
Orchal Fireb - Dec 2, 2003 11:32 am (#150 of 2956)
Ohh that would be a really cool thought, if Snape was scanning the memories of his poor students, but if that was the case why threaten Harry with the Veritiserum, if he could just take a gander at his thoughts.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 2, 2003 12:29 pm (#151 of 2956)
Why? Because it's cooler and more menacing that way. And, of course, as a literary devise it introduces us to veritaserum and let's our imagination run wild along with Harry's.
fidelio - Dec 2, 2003 12:57 pm (#152 of 2956)
Also, legilimency is not fool-proof. Of course, veritaserum may not be fool-proof either--we've discussed in various places whether it makes on tell the truth, or just what one believes to be the truth. Besides, Snape wasn't trying to extract the truth from Harry when he threatened him with the stuff in GoF, he was trying to make it plain that there was no point in lying to him about stealing from the locked supply closet. For that purpose the veritaserum was as good a threat as any other that might have been used. It was probably better, in fact, because it gave a specific "if you do this, I shall do this in response" shape to the threat, aimed at producing good behavior, rather than "Don't try to lie, because I can read your mind", which would leave Harry open to the fear of having his thoughts invaded at random, expose Snape's abilities along those lines, and possibly still not be useful, since a Legilimens can be misled. I think the first two are especially important, as not many people would be happy about the thought that someone could read their minds at will--Harry was distressed simply over the thought that he'd tell every little secret with he was dosed with the veritaserum, so imagine how he'd feel about the mind-reading threat. I doubt that anyone at Hogwarts would feel too happy about believing that Snape, or anyone else, could browse through their thoughts and memories at random, so it's probably not an ability people are anxious to admit to having.
Gina R Snape - Dec 2, 2003 5:37 pm (#153 of 2956)
Great points, fidelio.
And, yet another example of people thinking Snape is "evil" but he's really just trying to discourage certain behaviours in Harry--with style.
MTW - Dec 2, 2003 7:18 pm (#154 of 2956)
Legilimency is not like picking up a book, looking in index for a page with the piece of information that needed. I think Snape pointed this out to Harry. It sort of human lie detector. When a question is ask. The question can cause the person to flash back to certain incident. Thus given a glimps of the person actions. But if the person being asked questions is prepared he could only think about Snape coming out of the cubboard with a green dress and buzzard hat.
The eye contact maybe for best results or for see past incident. I think JKR maybe showing that Legilimencist may also have (realtime) abilities. It hinted with Harry with Patil during the test and Snape's worst memory with knowing what James was writing.
Another possible reason for Snape to threaten Harry with the Veritserium. Snape accused him of breaking into his supply closet, but Snape didn't see the flash of Harry in his office that he expected to see. Snape disappointed at not catching him got the better of him.
S.E. Jones - Dec 2, 2003 8:46 pm (#155 of 2956)
It hinted with Harry with Patil during the test and Snape's worst memory with knowing what James was writing.
I don't think so. I think the Snape's memory thing can be chalked up to the Pensieve's magic, plain and simply (okay, as plain and simple as the old pensieve argument ever is). As for Harry and the test, I took that as Harry pulling information out of his memory. I've often experienced the same sensation of knowing I know something, being able to see the page of the book in my head, being able to see the spot on the page where the word is, but not the word, then suddenly remembering it a few minutes later. That's just the quirks of memory recollection.....
Sly Girl - Dec 3, 2003 10:55 am (#156 of 2956)
Has anyone else picked up on the fact that Occlumency is what it says it is? Break it down- Oc (a) clue (clue) men (men) cey (see) A clue men see. Nifty, eh?
I think Snape liked the fact that he had this ability and others (sirius) didn't. Call me crazy, but I'm fairly sure he took it as an ego boost that he would be the one teaching Harry. Is it because he just likes to have things over on Harry or is it because he was prideful of the fact that the headmaster was counting on him?
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 3, 2003 2:29 pm (#157 of 2956)
Maybe a little of both, and he probably also likes to be needed and important.
Devika - Dec 4, 2003 2:49 am (#158 of 2956)
That was a good one Sly!
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 4, 2003 1:10 pm (#159 of 2956)
If he was prideful of the fact that Dumbledore was counting on him, he probably wouldn't have thrown Harry out and quit teaching him.
Gina R Snape - Dec 4, 2003 1:59 pm (#160 of 2956)
Yes, well, sometimes anger, embarrassment and self-preservation win out over impressing the boss...
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 4, 2003 3:28 pm (#161 of 2956)
True, Gina, but he does still have some Harry/James issues. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it was entirely Snape's fault that it didn't work out. Harry shouldn't have looked at his memories, and Dumbledore should have been smart enough to realize that there was too much animosity between the two of them.
But if Harry's learning of Occlumency is vital if he is to defeat Voldemort, and Snape is truly on the right side, he could have suffered through some anger and embarrassment and kept on teaching.
P.S. I'm not trying to insult your loving husband. He's one of my favorite characters, good or bad.
SJ Rand - Dec 4, 2003 3:53 pm (#162 of 2956)
nimrod 2000: But if Harry's learning of Occlumency is vital if he is to defeat Voldemort, and Snape is truly on the right side, he could have suffered through some anger and embarrassment and kept on teaching.
Agreed. After a suitable punishment, or an over the top one since we're talking about Snape, he should have resumed for the cause, if nothing else. That he didn't, speaks volumes towards what we might expect from this guy in the next two books, and very much flies in the face of the "it's just tough love all he really wants to do is protect, help, prepare Harry" theories.
boop - Dec 4, 2003 4:14 pm (#163 of 2956)
I think Snape just can't get pass his anger for James. Harry looks and acts like his father in many ways. Snape didn't even give Harry a chance.,from day one he has shown his dislike for Harry. I don't know what Harry could do that would make Snape change his opinion of him.
Gina R Snape - Dec 4, 2003 5:11 pm (#164 of 2956)
I think we need to respect when a person has reached his limits. Dumbledore realised this assignment was wrong for the two of them and regretted putting them together. That doesn't mean Severus isn't committed to the cause. It means, after all, he is only just a man. And even he has his limits.
I think it humanizes Snape. I think it should create more sympathy, not antipathy. Reliving that scene of being held upside down when he pulls Harry out, and having the offspring of your childhood tormentor witness such a scene at all was just too much. As I've said before, Snape ran out to look after the needs of one of his students. He trusted Harry to not peek, and Harry violated that trust.
Snape does need to realise that Harry is not James. But it cannot be easy to see that face every day, to see James' face living on He is employed with the mission to both educate and protect that child. How could he not crack at some point?
Maybe if Severus was the only one who could teach Harry Occlumency this thought wouldn't hold water. But he's not the only one capable of teaching him.
I know a lot of people have thought about whether or not Snape was penalised in some way. Yelled at by Dumbledore? Written up for insubordination? etc. But Dumbledore seemed genuinely remoreseful at the end of OoP for making many wrong decisions. I'd like to think that Dumbledore cares about more than just Harry. He must care about his staff. I rather suspect he saw just how wrong this assignment was and had some sympathy for Snape. Knowing the man cannot let go--for whatever reason--and responding in a supportive way is an important part of being a good manager. Dumbledore needs to know how to manage his staff for so many reasons. To run the school, to create a formidable opposition to both Voldemort and the Ministry, and so one. He is the man of "second chances" and so I think of him as something of a mentor. If he truly is a mentor to Snape and not just THE BOSS, he will back off and let the man grieve his childhood and find a purpose that does not involve private lessons and invasions of privacy.
Now, with that said, I do hope Snape and Harry are forced into a classroom setting again. The tension will be fun. Snape's and Harry's controlled grousing will be a comedic treat when juxtaposed against the realities of war. But I also hope they are able to come to some kind of terms. I think they have a lot they can teach one another. And I think they are more alike than either one would like to admit.
Blast - Dec 4, 2003 6:33 pm (#165 of 2956)
Maybe Snape was upset that he wasn,t wearing his cool new boxers when he was turned upside down. But seriously maybe Snape hated James because James had fame talent and gold. The state of Snape's undergarments show's that he did not grow up rolling in Wizard gold. If his parents had split up because they couldn't get along maybe times were a bit tough in the Snape household. Here was Snape, pureblood, talented, hard working, but virtually friendless. He reminds me a bit of Scrooge , life dealt him a crummy hand but he just withdraws into self pitty and then tries and buries himself in his work[and being a bit sadistic about it as well.]
boop - Dec 4, 2003 6:38 pm (#166 of 2956)
I agree that Harry should not have violated Snape's privacy. Snape had a right to be very angry. I don't believe that Snape should be penalized.
I agree Dumbledore realized that it was his mistake to expect Snape to teach Harry occlumency.
I agree they both had awful childhoods. There are alot of painful memories on both sides. Hopefully they will realize this and come to a understanding.
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 7:51 am (#167 of 2956)
Assuming there is something we don?t know about James? and Snape?s relationship?something more than pranks that makes Snape?s hatred pass on to Harry?do you suppose Dumbledore knows what it is? Or does Dumbledore only have the same information we do: Snape hated James, James saved his life, Snape hated James (and Harry) even more. I can understand that if Dumbledore weren?t aware of the whole history, he would think Snape would be able set aside his emotions and teach Harry. Otherwise, why would he put Harry and Snape under that sort of torture (yes I think it was torture for Snape too?to be reminded day after day of his adolescent nemesis)?
Gina R Snape - Dec 5, 2003 8:24 am (#168 of 2956)
Oooh, Peregrine. Nice new avatar.
I think Dumbledore knows more of the story, but perhaps doesn't take it seriously enough because they were "just kids." He has said himself that he forgets what it's like to be young.
I don't know if James was in on the prank and regretted it at the last minute, or if he just thought Sirius went too far and stepped in. Only James knows for sure. But Snape is absolutely right in being angry for the setup. He was nosy, sure. But my hope is that he learned a very important lesson or two about the spy business out of that scenario.
What's interesting to me is that Snape did wind up becoming a spy afterwards. That this didn't scare him off. He has justified anger on his side, which probably doesn't help get past it emotionally.
What's even more fascinating is how drastic the recollections are regarding this incident. The first time I read "Snape's Grudge" I was angry at just how unbelievably petty it seemed. I questioned my poor Severus' judgment. But the more I know, and the more I look back, the more despicable I find the Sirius character. He not only set up Snape to be in danger. He set up one of his best friends to be the purpetrator. I'm sure Lupin would not have found it funny if Snape was bitten and inflicted with Lycanthropy because of him.
I am rereading PoA now, and did not yet get up to this chapter. But I can't wait to, now, knowing what I know. I'm sure I'll be yelling at the book!
Poor Harry only has Lupin and Snape to tell him firsthand accounts about his parents (firsthand of their generation). It will be interesting to see if he can integrate both sides of the story. It would be really cool to get the 3 of them in a room together, but I suppose that belongs on the ff side...
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 9:22 am (#169 of 2956)
Thanks!
At least Lupin?s accounts of what happened will be closer to the truth than something Sirius would have said. He?s seems like he could be a little less biased and emotional about the past than anyone else. Although, Snape wasn?t far off usually?James did sort of ?strut?, didn?t he?
SJ Rand - Dec 5, 2003 9:49 am (#170 of 2956)
Sorry, but Snape's behavior boarders on psychotic obsession. Actually, saying "boarders on" is being nice. At the least, it's an "idee fixe": thoughts the mind can't stop itself from returing to.
Holding a grudge against the person who did these things to him is understandable.
Holding a grudge against the son of the living person who did these things is foolish, but almost understandable; the son can talk to the father and the father would know his son is being punished for what he did. Not a nice thing to do, but it wouldn't be the first time it's been done.
Holding a grudge against the son of the dead person, fourteen years in the grave and murdered by a common enemy, isn't rational. The "criminal" has been killed, the son is an orphan. What more revenge can he get? What more revenge could a sane man want?
The traits displayed by Snape, if created by a horror writer, would be the feeble "explanation" of why the serial killer went on his murder spree. He's like the evil protagonist in a thousand "released directly to video" horror films.
His past suffering neither excuses nor rationally explains his current behavior. If Rowling wants to flesh this character out, she really has to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Something like: he was being watched by Voldemort and needed to put on a show of loyalty... but Voldemort, who could think he's using Snape to spy on Dumbledore, would be smart enough to tell Snape to stop being so blasted obvious.
Even the inexperienced Riddle was clever enough to "sweet talk" Ginny, and to give the appearance of helping Harry, until the trap was sprung.
Weeny Owl - Dec 5, 2003 10:09 am (#171 of 2956)
Peregrine:
James did more than just sort of strut. After the Pensieve scene, I'm surprised he didn't turn into a rooster in his animagus form instead of a stag.
I think Snape is wrong about Harry strutting, though. He needs to learn to view Harry as an individual with his own strengths and weaknesses and not as a carbon copy of his father.
As much as Snape detested Sirius, I would like to think that maybe he could overcome some of his feelings about the Marauders and realize how deeply Harry has been affected.
I do wonder if Dumbledore telling Snape he couldn't mention anything about Lupin being a werewolf might not have played a part in why Snape became a Death Eater. As much as Snape may respect Dumbledore now, he probably didn't feel that way after almost being attacked by a werewolf only to find out that the perpetrators of the joke weren't even going to be expelled.
SJ:
It always bothered me that Snape would feel such animosity toward a child who had never done anything to him... at least when Harry first came to Hogwarts. I wonder if we're being somewhat misled by JKR as to the reasons for it. I think there is more to it than just Harry looking like James.
Gina R Snape - Dec 5, 2003 10:30 am (#172 of 2956)
Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnddddddd the arguments live on...
SJ Rand, I wholeheartedly DISagree with your assessment that Snape is acting almost psychotic. I'm shocked you would go that far. Really, I'm speechless. But then, that is the fun of this board, isn't it? Two shockingly disparate opinions about the man.
Weeny Owl, I can't wait to see what else JKR has up her sleeve.
And, I'm gonna leave it at that for now.
Lisaren - Dec 5, 2003 10:36 am (#173 of 2956)
I do wonder if Dumbledore telling Snape he couldn't mention anything about Lupin being a werewolf might not have played a part in why Snape became a Death Eater. As much as Snape may respect Dumbledore now, he probably didn't feel that way after almost being attacked by a werewolf only to find out that the perpetrators of the joke weren't even going to be expelled.
I believe the above statement by Weeny Owl makes Snapes reaction to Harry even less understandable. I am of the opinion that Snape is mean to Harry because he dislikes him and his entire family (James). He is not protecting his position as a spy. As SJ pointed out he is being extremely obvious if that is his objective and with his other faults, Voldemort is not completely obvious in his methods. If Snape can forgive Dumbledore for protecting those awful Mauraders and not even expelling them for the act that almost ended his life, how can he not be civil to the child of one of the mauraders who was not even involved or born and is now an orphan?
Weeny Owl - Dec 5, 2003 10:49 am (#174 of 2956)
Lisaren:
I'm not saying that Dumbledore protecting the Marauders was the sole reason Snape became a Death Eater, just that his resentment over the situation might have added to whatever made him become one. Maybe he thought that by becoming a Death Eater he would have the power not to be put in a position like that again, and by having an alliance with someone powerful no one would dare to pull another joke like that on him.
I think Snape's reaction to Dumbledore's decision might have a small part in why he hates Harry... just a very small part, though. Harry gets by with way too much, at least in Snape's opinion, and so did James.
Lisaren - Dec 5, 2003 10:54 am (#175 of 2956)
Weeny Owl:
I understood that was not the sole reason for becoming a Death Eater. But Snape is not the forgiving kind .. He will not even tolerate the son of a dead man because he hated the father (yes, after 5 years Harry does seem to get away with alot, but Snape hated Harry with the same intensity on day one, before he knew anything except he was James Potter's son). If Snape is so unable to forgive, how can he forgive Dumbledore for forcing him to accept what James and company did to him so many years ago and still remain loyal? Could his hatred of Harry also be a transferrance of anger that should be directed toward Dumbledore (in Snape's mind of course).
septentrion - Dec 5, 2003 11:26 am (#176 of 2956)
If Snape is so unable to forgive, how can he forgive Dumbledore for forcing him to accept what James and company did to him so many years ago and still remain loyal? Could his hatred of Harry also be a transferrance of anger that should be directed toward Dumbledore (in Snape's mind of course).
Lisaren, your argument is good but time has passed, and I think something happened AFTER Snape has become a death eater that made him indebted to Dumbledore. I am the opinion that what happened between Snape and Dumbledore was important enough to make Snape change his mind if he had ever hated Dumbledore. But I hardly have an idea of what it could be, even if it has been discussed in this forum. And .... is it too late to join the in detention with Severus club ?
SJ Rand - Dec 5, 2003 12:09 pm (#177 of 2956)
This is for Gina R Snape, but it's not private so no need to avert your eyes.
I'll play the other side of the debate for a moment.
It's remotely possible that Snape somehow helped Voldemort get at the Potters through Pettigrew. I'm not sure how, but it's not beyond reason.
Perhaps Snape learned that Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the one keeping the Potters hidden and Voldemort read that thought. Maybe Voldemort was able to read it because Snape couldn't stop thinking about it, or didn't want to stop thinking about it. He did hate James no matter how he felt about what Voldemort was doing.
Or maybe Snape was somehow responsible for getting Pettigrew in with the DEs, where Pettigrew would then be able to talk to Voldemort.
If Snape helped tip Voldemort off, then he would feel responsible for Harry being an orphan. Feeling guilty would not sit well with Snape. Feeling guilty about the death of his tormentor would be even worse. If these things were at play, then it's conceivable for him to perform a sort of emotional transference.
"I don't like feeling guilty about that snotnose. If he wasn't here, then I wouldn't be feeling guilty. It his fault that I feel guilty. I hate him for making me feel this way."
That's a stretch, but it's at least a sane, if still neurotic, motivation. People do come to resent others who "make" them experience emotions that they don't want.
This could also tie into the reason Snape defected from Voldemort's camp.
Anyway, in this line of thought, Snape would both really believe that Harry is responsible for the way Snape feels about him, and not being stupid, would also know that's complete rubbish, which would paradoxically make Snape behave even worse.
Enjoy your detention.
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 12:14 pm (#178 of 2956)
Maybe Snape?s hatred of Harry does have more to do with Harry himself than James. In their first class together Snape referred to Harry as their newest celebrity. We don?t really know what was said about Harry for all those years. He would have been mentioned in history books (as we saw through Hermione) and could possibly have his own day named after him (if McGonagall was right) and for what? Harry did nothing to deserve any fame. Lily?s the one who (temporarily) defeated Voldemort, not Harry, but Harry?s getting the praise and admiration for it.
Maybe that?s Snape?s problem (part of it at any rate). Snape gets no recognition for what he does. People can?t know he was/is a spy. So he has to sit in the shadows as a loathed Potions Master while Harry saves the philosopher?s stone, and saves Ginny, and wins the Triwizard Tournament?.
This has probably been brought up before, but it may be worth another look (especially since if we didn?t have this to argue over, we?d hardly get to talk about Snape at all).
Caput Draconis - Dec 6, 2003 3:21 am (#179 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 6, 2003 3:22 am
Just a thought - if Snape knew Pettigrew was a DE (whether or not he conspired with him) then he would have known Sirius was not the secret keeper, not the traitor, right? I'm not sure his hatred extends so far as allowing an innocent man - even one who tormented and tried to kill him - to be sent to Azkaban for a crime not his own. And if he knew Sirius was innocent by the time of PoA, and he doesn't act to prevent the dementors kiss, that for me is one of the (few ) things that would make his character irredeemable. Snape was completely blinded by his schoolboy resentment towards Lupin and Sirius in the (awesome) Shrieking Shack scene, but I think his reaction was also based on a genuine belief that Sirius was a traitor, thus needed to be brought to justice - and preferably by Snape himself.
Which ties into Peregrine's recognition point, which I agree with. He seems to have, maybe not a need to please, but a need to seem efficient, perhaps to show Dumbledore that his faith is justified, or to earn the respect that Harry has received his whole life for doing, in Snape's eyes, little of merit.
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 9:31 am (#180 of 2956)
Lisaren:
Yes, Snape hated Harry from the first day, but if Harry had been an ordinary kid who wasn't a rule breaker, Snape may have let up a bit as time progressed.
septentrion:
I agree with you that something major happened that caused Snape to stop being a Death Eater and go to Dumbledore. I also don't think Snape ever actually hated Dumbledore but did resent his decision over the Lupin incident.
I think Gina would be happy to let you join us in detention with Severus... the more the merrier.
SJ:
"I don't like feeling guilty about that snotnose. If he wasn't here, then I wouldn't be feeling guilty. It his fault that I feel guilty. I hate him for making me feel this way."
I can see a scenario like that. That does seem to be a Snapeish way of reacting to the situation.
There's a huge thread about Snape being in love with Lily, and while I've never really believed it, I have wondered if it's possible.
Snape loves her; she dies. She wouldn't be dead if it weren't for Harry (although he isn't at fault in any way, of course). He has her eyes. Every time he sees Harry, he sees her, remembers what he felt for her, and that's why he has so much animosity.
That might be possible even if he didn't love her in a romantic way. While he did call her a mudblood, that doesn't mean that he didn't apologize to her later. They could have become friends in their last two years at Hogwarts.
As you said about what you wrote, it's a stretch, but it is a possible motivation.
Pregrine:
Snape's attitude toward Harry would probably include Harry getting recognition while Snape doesn't, but I do feel that there is much more to it.
After the Occlumency lessons, Snape has seen that Harry's life hasn't been a bowl of cherries. Snape also knows that Harry was at Voldie's rebirthing and was present when Cedric was murdered. Those aren't easy things for anyone to deal with, much less a kid.
Snape is an intelligent man, and for him to continue his utter antipathy after knowing things that Harry's been through, there would almost have to be much more to it than no recognition or what James did in the Pensieve scene.
Caput:
I agree with you that Snape wouldn't be so blinded as to let someone innocent be subjected to the Dementors.
Snape seems to lean more toward petty revenges such as giving Harry zeros and letting it "slip" that Lupin is a werewolf. Granted, he did ruin Lupin's teaching career with that "slip," but it wasn't the same as a Dementor's kiss.
He does like drawing blood with his sharp tongue, but I don't think he is so consumed that he doesn't understand the ramifications of his actions.
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 12:07 pm (#181 of 2956)
SJ, I admire your ability to come up with another far-fetched theory. We are not short of them on this board. I have my own theory, on the thread "My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophecy."
I am more in line with Peregrine's thoughts concerning Snape's resentment. He hated James. Then here comes along Harry, obtaining glory for "simply living" and things seem to be handed to him on a silver platter. Quidditch star. Obtaining praise and house points for breaking rules--on occasion flaunting rules.
Weeny, I agree that Snape takes pleasure out of petty revenges. But when it comes to the big stuff, he steps in. When he went to the Shrieking Shack, it was with the express purpose of protecting those children. Even if they are children he detests, that is still his responsibility. He knew Lupin hadn't taken the woflsbane potion and that it was a full moon. Once he got there, he fully believed Sirius Black was guilty. It is unfortunate that he did not see Pettigrew reemerge. This is the perfect example of Snape acting on what he believes to be the facts, in the face of what is really happening. His actions are misunderstood and he comes off the bad guy for once again risking his life. Which, incidentally, also refutes SJ's theory.
SJ Rand, I hope this does not come off as snotty. But I would suggest you seriously consider before throwing around words like Psychotic. It is a very loaded term socially, but a very specific term psychiatrically. As a professional social worker who also teaches at the university level, I tend to bristle at the casual use of psychiatric terms. So forgive me. But anyway, Snape's world view is guided by his perception of events, and his life experiences just like the rest of us. But to be psychotic is to have a break from reality. Snape acts within the confines of reality as he knows it (factwise), which is a rational one, if sometimes emotionally frustrating, pessimistic and unhappy. He is suspicious and pessimistic realistically because of the life he's lead. He has reason to believe people are up to no good. He has reason to believe there are people out there ready to kill Potter--the one chance the wizarding world has to defeat Voldemort. He's gotten a rotten deal in life and he takes pleasure in making others suffer in small, ultimately insignificant ways because, as they say, misery loves company.
But he does not have a genuine loss of contact with reality. He isn't unreasonably paranoid. He does not act out violently. He's not delusional. He has his reasons for hating Harry, and we are not privy to them all but can have loads of fun guessiing what they may be. Perhaps, working so hard as he has, it's frustrating to see the child of your enemy come along as prince of the wizarding world just for being born. How frustrating would that be?! Especially when we know that Snape was a very bright student, and Harry is average and does not apply himself.
If he freaks out under stress--like when he loses it at the end of PoA, I do not think he's gone over the line to psychotic. He is bloody angry. Justifiably angry. His chance at recognition for stepping intot he line of fire is thwarted again. Yet he keeps on going. He keeps on working for DD, protecting and teaching the children, spying, and who knows what else, at great danger to himself. /end rant.
On another note, I am quite happily the President of the Detention with Snape! club Anyone who appreciates the Potions Master and wants to join is welcome to. So long as I get all the turns I want...
HP Fan - Dec 6, 2003 12:09 pm (#182 of 2956)
I know the Snape's Worst Memory has been discussed in length earlier but I've been mulling something over for a while, ad thought I might as well voice it. It sort of ties in with the discussion of his hatred of Harry and his ways of getting revenge. It's possible that Snape reacted in the way he did i.e., throwing Harry away from himself and then throwing jars at Harry to scare him [Harry] into leaving the room so that he wouldn't totally lose control of himself and end up harming/hurting Harry in some way. When I read that scene I felt that Snape was in some way keeping a very, very tight hold on himself and not just on Harry's arm :-).
From the Occulmency lesson's he'd seen that Harry's past wasn't a barrel of laughs, and neither was Snape's He'd even gone as far as praising Harry, admittedly reluctantly but he had praised him. And leaving the Pensive there certainly shows an amount of trust not present even in GoF where he suspects Harry of robbing his office! Yet Harry betrays that trust. Plus the memory could be hidden so that Harry doesn't see what his father was REALLY like - so that Harry didn't have even more things worrying him. Perhaps Snape couldn't trust HIMSELF to not react and lose control when he was on his own with Harry and that's why he never taught him again. Because your not telling me that McGonagall and DD and possible Lupin didn't try to persuade him to teach Harry again.
Does that make sense? Sorry I get myself in a bit of a muddle when posting.
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 12:16 pm (#183 of 2956)
Your post makes perfect sense, HP Fan. I like it! It shows a level of responsibility even in the midst of him having something of an emotional crisis. Well done!
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 12:26 pm (#184 of 2956)
Gina:
Yes, Snape was at the Shrieking Shack to protect those brats. He also, regardless of his personal feelings, did want to have Lupin take the Wolfsbane Potion. Those aren't the actions of someone who is psychotic.
I do think Harry is more than average, though. That he does not apply himself is evident, but the Sorting Hat said he had talent. I think that may be part of the reason Snape gets so angry with him. Harry has the ability and the talent but doesn't use it.
HP Fan:
I really like that theory... Snape couldn't trust himself not to lose control again.
I agree... while he was justifiably and intensely angry, he could have done much more to Harry than what he did. He does have a very tight hold on himself.
septentrion - Dec 6, 2003 12:49 pm (#185 of 2956)
I also think that Snape has great self-control in comparison with the emotions he feels. As you say, HPfan, in he had let go his anger totally after the pensieve scene,he would have hurt Harry physically.
Weeny Owl, and some others, you told that Snape wouldn't have called Lily a "mudblood" if he has loved her. I disagree : if he has loved her (which I don't think), he could on the contrary have wanted to insult her, and maybe whoever tried to help him. He felt so humiliated that he could have wanted her (and the others) to go and not see what was happening to him. Lily's kindness could have hurt him too. Well, it's difficult to say clearly what I mean, but sometimes, you are harsher with the people you love more. Moreover, if we keep the hypothesis that Snape loved lily, he couldn't admit it publicly because he was known by his slytherin friends as a "mudblood" hater. I hope my ideas are clear for everyone for I am not accustomed to write in English. Please, tell me if precisons are needed.
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 2:23 pm (#186 of 2956)
septentrion:
I think Snape might have reacted so harshly because he was a fifteen-year-old boy being rescued by a girl. That would have been humiliating for him, but with him hanging upside down with his undies showing, it would have been much much worse.
Whether or not he loved her romantically, I doubt if he hated her or her blood status.
SJ Rand - Dec 6, 2003 4:54 pm (#187 of 2956)
Gina R. Snape:
First, let's look at what I wrote, Sorry, but Snape's behavior boarders on psychotic obsession. Actually, saying "boarders on" is being nice. At the least, it's an "idee fixe": thoughts the mind can't stop itself from returning to.
Next, please don't make assumptions about my own qualifications to proffer a diagnosis such as the above. You'd probably be surprised at what they are.
Snape, as written, is either a deep character who is obsessed with events from the past, or he's a caricature borrowed from a Dickens novel. Rowling hasn't given us much middle ground with him thus far. He has at times shown the ability to overcome his fixation, but in the end he always returns to it.
My far fetched theory, and it certainly was far fetched, was just my playing devil's advocate against myself to come up with a more positive explanation of his behavior. I don't believe it and couldn't even begin to defend it if I wanted to. Not that I do.
>But to be psychotic is to have a break from reality. Snape acts within the confines of reality
From some aspect of reality, certainly. It doesn't mean they can't be functional and even appear to be in full control. It doesn't even mean that they aren't often, or even mostly, really in control.
But Snape's behavior is not always rational. For just one example, he threatens to poison Neville's pet, and <as Rowling wrote it looked "sour" when the potion he used on the toad worked right. In his own words, he didn't expect it to work right. When it did, he took points from Hermione for helping Neville. Don't take my word for it, read the scene. (Beginning of chapter seven, page 128 American)
Did he secretly know that Hermione helped Neville get it right? That's the debate, I guess, but the words on the page don't indicate it. Not to me at least. So was he just putting on a show? For whom? And why?
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 5:18 pm (#188 of 2956)
Oh, I think he knew Hermione was helping Neville. He knew she was muttering directions to him under her breath. What was questionable, was how much repair she might have been able to do, depending upon her skill and how badly Neville had messed up in the first place.
I think he did that little scene for his own amusement, and maybe for the 'benefit' of the Slytherins. I thought it was funny. And I seriously doubt, had the potion been brewed incorrectly, that he would have inflicted any lasting harm on Neville's toad. But I guess that's one of the differences between us. I see Snape as inherently good, but with a wicked sense of humour. The way I see it, he created a scenario for Neville to have some incentive to pay attention.
And I still don't think anything Snape does borders on psychotic. I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree.
Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 6:38 pm (#189 of 2956)
I have a new theory about why Snape was so mean to Harry and Neville from day one.
What those two boys have in common ? They are both Griffindor, both born as July dies (and Snape could know what that mean) and they are both sons of OP members.
If I cross that information to what Timrew said on Draco Malfoy thread (post #210) :
I think JKR, with Draco, is giving us (especially us Brits) a supreme example of our class system at work.
The Malfoys are the 'elite' of the wizarding establishment. Pure Bloods who are admired and respected by other Pure Bloods [...].
An astounding (but true) thing about the upper classes, is that they take no notice whatsoever of any criticism from any source, especially if it comes from a class lower than themselves. The Upper Classes can do no wrong.....ever!
[...] [They] is right, and everyone else in the world is wrong.
I had concluded that as a known DE teaching to 4 DE sons and 2 OP member sons, he cannot act like he and his fellows DE were wrong. By giving good comments about the sons of is kind and by being meany to his ennemy's sons, he prove that he is a faithfull DE, not in Azkaban because he's more cunning.
Blast - Dec 6, 2003 7:44 pm (#190 of 2956)
I agree that Harry is not doing his best at school. Snape in his own way is trying to provoke Harry into doing better.If Snape compares Harry to James, and we know that James was a very bright student, then I think he will expect a better performance from Harry.
septentrion - Dec 7, 2003 11:59 am (#191 of 2956)
Gina, your new portrait is too funny ! But are you sure Snape said "Gina" ? ;-) By the way, I'm not sure that he is inherently good but sure he likes to have fun at the expense of the others. I'm even sure he had fun when professor Mac Gonagall couldn't look him in the face for weeks after the Slytherin quidditch team have beaten the Gryffindor team (SS chapter seven). But it doesn't mean that he dislikes those he has fun at their expense. Yet, he always keeps a straight face when doing it, so he seems to be nasty.
Little Ginny - Dec 7, 2003 12:18 pm (#192 of 2956)
Wouldn't all of us enjoy such a situation, if we were not Gryffindor fans?
I don't think the fact that Snape pointed out to McGonagall that his house had won the cup already says that Snape is bad, or has a bad character.
I only think that he has a very special idea of fun, and most people don't understand him. I won't say that inside he is a teddybear, or something like that, but in my opinion, he doesn't have an evil soul or stuff like that.
septentrion - Dec 7, 2003 1:30 pm (#193 of 2956)
In fact, Little Ginny, I totally agree with you, but I didn't write it clearly enough.
SJ Rand - Dec 7, 2003 2:24 pm (#194 of 2956)
This must be a female thing, similar to how most of the folks defending Cho in that thread were male. I'm at a loss for any other explanation of why the most despicable character to hit a fantasy series since the Baron Harkonnen in Dune has so many people strenuously defending him.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 7, 2003 2:44 pm (#195 of 2956)
Maybe because people do not see him as just a black and white character. Yes, he does leave room for fantasising about him, and pretending that he is supposed to be more handsome than he is and such. But, character wise , there is a significant amount of evidence to believe that he is not as bad as he seems, and there is also a significant amount of evidence to think that he really is a truely evil creature. Either way, just because you cannot understand something, does not make it any less valid. That was insulting to all of the people on this board who have posted inteligent responses to your post and who have posted valid reasons for defending him. Just beacuse you see him like that does not make anyone else's vision of him any less valid. P.S. Do you really think that Snape is the most despicable character in a fantasy series since the Baron? Because if so.......wow. Because, I can give you rapists, truely sadistic people, people who committe genocide, destroy worlds, etc.
Weeny Owl - Dec 7, 2003 2:48 pm (#196 of 2956)
SJ:
I'm not sure it's a female thing as much as it's the way the character is written.
I completely and totally detest Draco and Lucius. Granted, Jason Isaacs is totally yummy, but the character of Lucius Malfoy makes my skin crawl.
I absolutely adore Lupin, Bill and Charlie, and Kingsley Shacklebolt. There are other male characters I like as well.
The thing about Snape is that while he may be unpleasant and not someone you'd want for a neighbor, he is trusted by Dumbledore and has saved Harry's life on more than one occasion.
He is a complicated character, multi-dimensional, and mysterious. I want to know WHY Dumbledore trusts him, what his motives were for leaving the Death Eaters, and all the whys and wherefores of his feelings about James and Harry.
On the surface he does seem to be horrid, but just like an iceberg, are we seeing a minute part of him or is that all there is?
If that's all there is, then I can go back to finding him vile, but if there's more, then I would like to see what lies beneath.
Caput Draconis - Dec 7, 2003 3:12 pm (#197 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 7, 2003 3:13 pm
It's perhaps a 'female thing' to romanticise Snape, and most times we see this it is from people drawing on things that aren't evident in the character the way he's written, and tending to talk away his bitterness, anger, cruelty etc to fit a fantasy.
I don't think that's what most of us are doing here. We're just searching through the layers that we believe exist, and that we can determine from his book characterisation. A pet hate (not that anyone here has done this) is have any Snape exploration be dismissed immediately as Rickman induced idiocy. There is plenty in the books to warrant the views in this thread. Rickman is a bonus.
At risk of being hypocritical... "Granted, Jason Isaacs is totally yummy, but the character of Lucius Malfoy makes my skin crawl." Too true...
Gina R Snape - Dec 7, 2003 3:26 pm (#198 of 2956)
Well said, Caput. We've debated the Snape/Rickman thing ad naseum, but your comments are well appreciated.
And yes, septentrion, I'm quite sure that's what he said!
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 4:03 pm (#199 of 2956)
There is something to be said for a character, even a mean one like Snape, who produces a sympathetic repsonse. I believe, based on how much we discuss his past and true (hidden) motivations that Snape has a very sad story to tell that will be revealed later. Also, I suspect a number of his fans may unconsciouly worry that he's the one who's going to buy the farm in the end just at the very moment when his inner goodness (or at least a darn good reason for his personality and behavior toward Harry) is revealed.
Just as Snape brings us to the brink of disgust when he overdoes it toward Harry or Neville, something usually comes up to remind us that despite all that, DD still trusts him, he's got a crucial role in protecting Harry, and he's a darn good potions master.
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 7, 2003 4:08 pm (#200 of 2956)
Tpujiko4444,
Yes, but I said the most despicable, not the most evil. Snape isn't even the most evil in HP land. Umbridge makes him look like Mary Poppins, and who needs to get started on Voldemort?
>That was insulting to all of the people on this board who have posted inteligent responses to your post...
I was actually thinking more of the quasi love mail that was gathering here before I even entered the thread, not any reply anyone made to something I'd posted.
Plus there's been more than just a bit of what I'd label sinnuendo. I'm not knocking it, I'm waiting for the Cho dangling upside down scene myself, but I'm not blind to subtle nuances of phraseology either. And no, I'm not going to give examples because the moderators will trash me if I do.
Madame Librarian,
No disagreement, but out of curiosity were you around before OotP came out? I ask because I'm still newish here, and I wonder how many sympathetic votes he got before the dirty undies thing came about. That scene could make many people pity the poor geek being abused by the nasty jock. Even I winced, and I don't like the guy.
Why? Because it's cooler and more menacing that way. And, of course, as a literary devise it introduces us to veritaserum and let's our imagination run wild along with Harry's.
fidelio - Dec 2, 2003 12:57 pm (#152 of 2956)
Also, legilimency is not fool-proof. Of course, veritaserum may not be fool-proof either--we've discussed in various places whether it makes on tell the truth, or just what one believes to be the truth. Besides, Snape wasn't trying to extract the truth from Harry when he threatened him with the stuff in GoF, he was trying to make it plain that there was no point in lying to him about stealing from the locked supply closet. For that purpose the veritaserum was as good a threat as any other that might have been used. It was probably better, in fact, because it gave a specific "if you do this, I shall do this in response" shape to the threat, aimed at producing good behavior, rather than "Don't try to lie, because I can read your mind", which would leave Harry open to the fear of having his thoughts invaded at random, expose Snape's abilities along those lines, and possibly still not be useful, since a Legilimens can be misled. I think the first two are especially important, as not many people would be happy about the thought that someone could read their minds at will--Harry was distressed simply over the thought that he'd tell every little secret with he was dosed with the veritaserum, so imagine how he'd feel about the mind-reading threat. I doubt that anyone at Hogwarts would feel too happy about believing that Snape, or anyone else, could browse through their thoughts and memories at random, so it's probably not an ability people are anxious to admit to having.
Gina R Snape - Dec 2, 2003 5:37 pm (#153 of 2956)
Great points, fidelio.
And, yet another example of people thinking Snape is "evil" but he's really just trying to discourage certain behaviours in Harry--with style.
MTW - Dec 2, 2003 7:18 pm (#154 of 2956)
Legilimency is not like picking up a book, looking in index for a page with the piece of information that needed. I think Snape pointed this out to Harry. It sort of human lie detector. When a question is ask. The question can cause the person to flash back to certain incident. Thus given a glimps of the person actions. But if the person being asked questions is prepared he could only think about Snape coming out of the cubboard with a green dress and buzzard hat.
The eye contact maybe for best results or for see past incident. I think JKR maybe showing that Legilimencist may also have (realtime) abilities. It hinted with Harry with Patil during the test and Snape's worst memory with knowing what James was writing.
Another possible reason for Snape to threaten Harry with the Veritserium. Snape accused him of breaking into his supply closet, but Snape didn't see the flash of Harry in his office that he expected to see. Snape disappointed at not catching him got the better of him.
S.E. Jones - Dec 2, 2003 8:46 pm (#155 of 2956)
It hinted with Harry with Patil during the test and Snape's worst memory with knowing what James was writing.
I don't think so. I think the Snape's memory thing can be chalked up to the Pensieve's magic, plain and simply (okay, as plain and simple as the old pensieve argument ever is). As for Harry and the test, I took that as Harry pulling information out of his memory. I've often experienced the same sensation of knowing I know something, being able to see the page of the book in my head, being able to see the spot on the page where the word is, but not the word, then suddenly remembering it a few minutes later. That's just the quirks of memory recollection.....
Sly Girl - Dec 3, 2003 10:55 am (#156 of 2956)
Has anyone else picked up on the fact that Occlumency is what it says it is? Break it down- Oc (a) clue (clue) men (men) cey (see) A clue men see. Nifty, eh?
I think Snape liked the fact that he had this ability and others (sirius) didn't. Call me crazy, but I'm fairly sure he took it as an ego boost that he would be the one teaching Harry. Is it because he just likes to have things over on Harry or is it because he was prideful of the fact that the headmaster was counting on him?
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 3, 2003 2:29 pm (#157 of 2956)
Maybe a little of both, and he probably also likes to be needed and important.
Devika - Dec 4, 2003 2:49 am (#158 of 2956)
That was a good one Sly!
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 4, 2003 1:10 pm (#159 of 2956)
If he was prideful of the fact that Dumbledore was counting on him, he probably wouldn't have thrown Harry out and quit teaching him.
Gina R Snape - Dec 4, 2003 1:59 pm (#160 of 2956)
Yes, well, sometimes anger, embarrassment and self-preservation win out over impressing the boss...
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 4, 2003 3:28 pm (#161 of 2956)
True, Gina, but he does still have some Harry/James issues. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it was entirely Snape's fault that it didn't work out. Harry shouldn't have looked at his memories, and Dumbledore should have been smart enough to realize that there was too much animosity between the two of them.
But if Harry's learning of Occlumency is vital if he is to defeat Voldemort, and Snape is truly on the right side, he could have suffered through some anger and embarrassment and kept on teaching.
P.S. I'm not trying to insult your loving husband. He's one of my favorite characters, good or bad.
SJ Rand - Dec 4, 2003 3:53 pm (#162 of 2956)
nimrod 2000: But if Harry's learning of Occlumency is vital if he is to defeat Voldemort, and Snape is truly on the right side, he could have suffered through some anger and embarrassment and kept on teaching.
Agreed. After a suitable punishment, or an over the top one since we're talking about Snape, he should have resumed for the cause, if nothing else. That he didn't, speaks volumes towards what we might expect from this guy in the next two books, and very much flies in the face of the "it's just tough love all he really wants to do is protect, help, prepare Harry" theories.
boop - Dec 4, 2003 4:14 pm (#163 of 2956)
I think Snape just can't get pass his anger for James. Harry looks and acts like his father in many ways. Snape didn't even give Harry a chance.,from day one he has shown his dislike for Harry. I don't know what Harry could do that would make Snape change his opinion of him.
Gina R Snape - Dec 4, 2003 5:11 pm (#164 of 2956)
I think we need to respect when a person has reached his limits. Dumbledore realised this assignment was wrong for the two of them and regretted putting them together. That doesn't mean Severus isn't committed to the cause. It means, after all, he is only just a man. And even he has his limits.
I think it humanizes Snape. I think it should create more sympathy, not antipathy. Reliving that scene of being held upside down when he pulls Harry out, and having the offspring of your childhood tormentor witness such a scene at all was just too much. As I've said before, Snape ran out to look after the needs of one of his students. He trusted Harry to not peek, and Harry violated that trust.
Snape does need to realise that Harry is not James. But it cannot be easy to see that face every day, to see James' face living on He is employed with the mission to both educate and protect that child. How could he not crack at some point?
Maybe if Severus was the only one who could teach Harry Occlumency this thought wouldn't hold water. But he's not the only one capable of teaching him.
I know a lot of people have thought about whether or not Snape was penalised in some way. Yelled at by Dumbledore? Written up for insubordination? etc. But Dumbledore seemed genuinely remoreseful at the end of OoP for making many wrong decisions. I'd like to think that Dumbledore cares about more than just Harry. He must care about his staff. I rather suspect he saw just how wrong this assignment was and had some sympathy for Snape. Knowing the man cannot let go--for whatever reason--and responding in a supportive way is an important part of being a good manager. Dumbledore needs to know how to manage his staff for so many reasons. To run the school, to create a formidable opposition to both Voldemort and the Ministry, and so one. He is the man of "second chances" and so I think of him as something of a mentor. If he truly is a mentor to Snape and not just THE BOSS, he will back off and let the man grieve his childhood and find a purpose that does not involve private lessons and invasions of privacy.
Now, with that said, I do hope Snape and Harry are forced into a classroom setting again. The tension will be fun. Snape's and Harry's controlled grousing will be a comedic treat when juxtaposed against the realities of war. But I also hope they are able to come to some kind of terms. I think they have a lot they can teach one another. And I think they are more alike than either one would like to admit.
Blast - Dec 4, 2003 6:33 pm (#165 of 2956)
Maybe Snape was upset that he wasn,t wearing his cool new boxers when he was turned upside down. But seriously maybe Snape hated James because James had fame talent and gold. The state of Snape's undergarments show's that he did not grow up rolling in Wizard gold. If his parents had split up because they couldn't get along maybe times were a bit tough in the Snape household. Here was Snape, pureblood, talented, hard working, but virtually friendless. He reminds me a bit of Scrooge , life dealt him a crummy hand but he just withdraws into self pitty and then tries and buries himself in his work[and being a bit sadistic about it as well.]
boop - Dec 4, 2003 6:38 pm (#166 of 2956)
I agree that Harry should not have violated Snape's privacy. Snape had a right to be very angry. I don't believe that Snape should be penalized.
I agree Dumbledore realized that it was his mistake to expect Snape to teach Harry occlumency.
I agree they both had awful childhoods. There are alot of painful memories on both sides. Hopefully they will realize this and come to a understanding.
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 7:51 am (#167 of 2956)
Assuming there is something we don?t know about James? and Snape?s relationship?something more than pranks that makes Snape?s hatred pass on to Harry?do you suppose Dumbledore knows what it is? Or does Dumbledore only have the same information we do: Snape hated James, James saved his life, Snape hated James (and Harry) even more. I can understand that if Dumbledore weren?t aware of the whole history, he would think Snape would be able set aside his emotions and teach Harry. Otherwise, why would he put Harry and Snape under that sort of torture (yes I think it was torture for Snape too?to be reminded day after day of his adolescent nemesis)?
Gina R Snape - Dec 5, 2003 8:24 am (#168 of 2956)
Oooh, Peregrine. Nice new avatar.
I think Dumbledore knows more of the story, but perhaps doesn't take it seriously enough because they were "just kids." He has said himself that he forgets what it's like to be young.
I don't know if James was in on the prank and regretted it at the last minute, or if he just thought Sirius went too far and stepped in. Only James knows for sure. But Snape is absolutely right in being angry for the setup. He was nosy, sure. But my hope is that he learned a very important lesson or two about the spy business out of that scenario.
What's interesting to me is that Snape did wind up becoming a spy afterwards. That this didn't scare him off. He has justified anger on his side, which probably doesn't help get past it emotionally.
What's even more fascinating is how drastic the recollections are regarding this incident. The first time I read "Snape's Grudge" I was angry at just how unbelievably petty it seemed. I questioned my poor Severus' judgment. But the more I know, and the more I look back, the more despicable I find the Sirius character. He not only set up Snape to be in danger. He set up one of his best friends to be the purpetrator. I'm sure Lupin would not have found it funny if Snape was bitten and inflicted with Lycanthropy because of him.
I am rereading PoA now, and did not yet get up to this chapter. But I can't wait to, now, knowing what I know. I'm sure I'll be yelling at the book!
Poor Harry only has Lupin and Snape to tell him firsthand accounts about his parents (firsthand of their generation). It will be interesting to see if he can integrate both sides of the story. It would be really cool to get the 3 of them in a room together, but I suppose that belongs on the ff side...
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 9:22 am (#169 of 2956)
Thanks!
At least Lupin?s accounts of what happened will be closer to the truth than something Sirius would have said. He?s seems like he could be a little less biased and emotional about the past than anyone else. Although, Snape wasn?t far off usually?James did sort of ?strut?, didn?t he?
SJ Rand - Dec 5, 2003 9:49 am (#170 of 2956)
Sorry, but Snape's behavior boarders on psychotic obsession. Actually, saying "boarders on" is being nice. At the least, it's an "idee fixe": thoughts the mind can't stop itself from returing to.
Holding a grudge against the person who did these things to him is understandable.
Holding a grudge against the son of the living person who did these things is foolish, but almost understandable; the son can talk to the father and the father would know his son is being punished for what he did. Not a nice thing to do, but it wouldn't be the first time it's been done.
Holding a grudge against the son of the dead person, fourteen years in the grave and murdered by a common enemy, isn't rational. The "criminal" has been killed, the son is an orphan. What more revenge can he get? What more revenge could a sane man want?
The traits displayed by Snape, if created by a horror writer, would be the feeble "explanation" of why the serial killer went on his murder spree. He's like the evil protagonist in a thousand "released directly to video" horror films.
His past suffering neither excuses nor rationally explains his current behavior. If Rowling wants to flesh this character out, she really has to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Something like: he was being watched by Voldemort and needed to put on a show of loyalty... but Voldemort, who could think he's using Snape to spy on Dumbledore, would be smart enough to tell Snape to stop being so blasted obvious.
Even the inexperienced Riddle was clever enough to "sweet talk" Ginny, and to give the appearance of helping Harry, until the trap was sprung.
Weeny Owl - Dec 5, 2003 10:09 am (#171 of 2956)
Peregrine:
James did more than just sort of strut. After the Pensieve scene, I'm surprised he didn't turn into a rooster in his animagus form instead of a stag.
I think Snape is wrong about Harry strutting, though. He needs to learn to view Harry as an individual with his own strengths and weaknesses and not as a carbon copy of his father.
As much as Snape detested Sirius, I would like to think that maybe he could overcome some of his feelings about the Marauders and realize how deeply Harry has been affected.
I do wonder if Dumbledore telling Snape he couldn't mention anything about Lupin being a werewolf might not have played a part in why Snape became a Death Eater. As much as Snape may respect Dumbledore now, he probably didn't feel that way after almost being attacked by a werewolf only to find out that the perpetrators of the joke weren't even going to be expelled.
SJ:
It always bothered me that Snape would feel such animosity toward a child who had never done anything to him... at least when Harry first came to Hogwarts. I wonder if we're being somewhat misled by JKR as to the reasons for it. I think there is more to it than just Harry looking like James.
Gina R Snape - Dec 5, 2003 10:30 am (#172 of 2956)
Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnddddddd the arguments live on...
SJ Rand, I wholeheartedly DISagree with your assessment that Snape is acting almost psychotic. I'm shocked you would go that far. Really, I'm speechless. But then, that is the fun of this board, isn't it? Two shockingly disparate opinions about the man.
Weeny Owl, I can't wait to see what else JKR has up her sleeve.
And, I'm gonna leave it at that for now.
Lisaren - Dec 5, 2003 10:36 am (#173 of 2956)
I do wonder if Dumbledore telling Snape he couldn't mention anything about Lupin being a werewolf might not have played a part in why Snape became a Death Eater. As much as Snape may respect Dumbledore now, he probably didn't feel that way after almost being attacked by a werewolf only to find out that the perpetrators of the joke weren't even going to be expelled.
I believe the above statement by Weeny Owl makes Snapes reaction to Harry even less understandable. I am of the opinion that Snape is mean to Harry because he dislikes him and his entire family (James). He is not protecting his position as a spy. As SJ pointed out he is being extremely obvious if that is his objective and with his other faults, Voldemort is not completely obvious in his methods. If Snape can forgive Dumbledore for protecting those awful Mauraders and not even expelling them for the act that almost ended his life, how can he not be civil to the child of one of the mauraders who was not even involved or born and is now an orphan?
Weeny Owl - Dec 5, 2003 10:49 am (#174 of 2956)
Lisaren:
I'm not saying that Dumbledore protecting the Marauders was the sole reason Snape became a Death Eater, just that his resentment over the situation might have added to whatever made him become one. Maybe he thought that by becoming a Death Eater he would have the power not to be put in a position like that again, and by having an alliance with someone powerful no one would dare to pull another joke like that on him.
I think Snape's reaction to Dumbledore's decision might have a small part in why he hates Harry... just a very small part, though. Harry gets by with way too much, at least in Snape's opinion, and so did James.
Lisaren - Dec 5, 2003 10:54 am (#175 of 2956)
Weeny Owl:
I understood that was not the sole reason for becoming a Death Eater. But Snape is not the forgiving kind .. He will not even tolerate the son of a dead man because he hated the father (yes, after 5 years Harry does seem to get away with alot, but Snape hated Harry with the same intensity on day one, before he knew anything except he was James Potter's son). If Snape is so unable to forgive, how can he forgive Dumbledore for forcing him to accept what James and company did to him so many years ago and still remain loyal? Could his hatred of Harry also be a transferrance of anger that should be directed toward Dumbledore (in Snape's mind of course).
septentrion - Dec 5, 2003 11:26 am (#176 of 2956)
If Snape is so unable to forgive, how can he forgive Dumbledore for forcing him to accept what James and company did to him so many years ago and still remain loyal? Could his hatred of Harry also be a transferrance of anger that should be directed toward Dumbledore (in Snape's mind of course).
Lisaren, your argument is good but time has passed, and I think something happened AFTER Snape has become a death eater that made him indebted to Dumbledore. I am the opinion that what happened between Snape and Dumbledore was important enough to make Snape change his mind if he had ever hated Dumbledore. But I hardly have an idea of what it could be, even if it has been discussed in this forum. And .... is it too late to join the in detention with Severus club ?
SJ Rand - Dec 5, 2003 12:09 pm (#177 of 2956)
This is for Gina R Snape, but it's not private so no need to avert your eyes.
I'll play the other side of the debate for a moment.
It's remotely possible that Snape somehow helped Voldemort get at the Potters through Pettigrew. I'm not sure how, but it's not beyond reason.
Perhaps Snape learned that Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the one keeping the Potters hidden and Voldemort read that thought. Maybe Voldemort was able to read it because Snape couldn't stop thinking about it, or didn't want to stop thinking about it. He did hate James no matter how he felt about what Voldemort was doing.
Or maybe Snape was somehow responsible for getting Pettigrew in with the DEs, where Pettigrew would then be able to talk to Voldemort.
If Snape helped tip Voldemort off, then he would feel responsible for Harry being an orphan. Feeling guilty would not sit well with Snape. Feeling guilty about the death of his tormentor would be even worse. If these things were at play, then it's conceivable for him to perform a sort of emotional transference.
"I don't like feeling guilty about that snotnose. If he wasn't here, then I wouldn't be feeling guilty. It his fault that I feel guilty. I hate him for making me feel this way."
That's a stretch, but it's at least a sane, if still neurotic, motivation. People do come to resent others who "make" them experience emotions that they don't want.
This could also tie into the reason Snape defected from Voldemort's camp.
Anyway, in this line of thought, Snape would both really believe that Harry is responsible for the way Snape feels about him, and not being stupid, would also know that's complete rubbish, which would paradoxically make Snape behave even worse.
Enjoy your detention.
Peregrine - Dec 5, 2003 12:14 pm (#178 of 2956)
Maybe Snape?s hatred of Harry does have more to do with Harry himself than James. In their first class together Snape referred to Harry as their newest celebrity. We don?t really know what was said about Harry for all those years. He would have been mentioned in history books (as we saw through Hermione) and could possibly have his own day named after him (if McGonagall was right) and for what? Harry did nothing to deserve any fame. Lily?s the one who (temporarily) defeated Voldemort, not Harry, but Harry?s getting the praise and admiration for it.
Maybe that?s Snape?s problem (part of it at any rate). Snape gets no recognition for what he does. People can?t know he was/is a spy. So he has to sit in the shadows as a loathed Potions Master while Harry saves the philosopher?s stone, and saves Ginny, and wins the Triwizard Tournament?.
This has probably been brought up before, but it may be worth another look (especially since if we didn?t have this to argue over, we?d hardly get to talk about Snape at all).
Caput Draconis - Dec 6, 2003 3:21 am (#179 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 6, 2003 3:22 am
Just a thought - if Snape knew Pettigrew was a DE (whether or not he conspired with him) then he would have known Sirius was not the secret keeper, not the traitor, right? I'm not sure his hatred extends so far as allowing an innocent man - even one who tormented and tried to kill him - to be sent to Azkaban for a crime not his own. And if he knew Sirius was innocent by the time of PoA, and he doesn't act to prevent the dementors kiss, that for me is one of the (few ) things that would make his character irredeemable. Snape was completely blinded by his schoolboy resentment towards Lupin and Sirius in the (awesome) Shrieking Shack scene, but I think his reaction was also based on a genuine belief that Sirius was a traitor, thus needed to be brought to justice - and preferably by Snape himself.
Which ties into Peregrine's recognition point, which I agree with. He seems to have, maybe not a need to please, but a need to seem efficient, perhaps to show Dumbledore that his faith is justified, or to earn the respect that Harry has received his whole life for doing, in Snape's eyes, little of merit.
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 9:31 am (#180 of 2956)
Lisaren:
Yes, Snape hated Harry from the first day, but if Harry had been an ordinary kid who wasn't a rule breaker, Snape may have let up a bit as time progressed.
septentrion:
I agree with you that something major happened that caused Snape to stop being a Death Eater and go to Dumbledore. I also don't think Snape ever actually hated Dumbledore but did resent his decision over the Lupin incident.
I think Gina would be happy to let you join us in detention with Severus... the more the merrier.
SJ:
"I don't like feeling guilty about that snotnose. If he wasn't here, then I wouldn't be feeling guilty. It his fault that I feel guilty. I hate him for making me feel this way."
I can see a scenario like that. That does seem to be a Snapeish way of reacting to the situation.
There's a huge thread about Snape being in love with Lily, and while I've never really believed it, I have wondered if it's possible.
Snape loves her; she dies. She wouldn't be dead if it weren't for Harry (although he isn't at fault in any way, of course). He has her eyes. Every time he sees Harry, he sees her, remembers what he felt for her, and that's why he has so much animosity.
That might be possible even if he didn't love her in a romantic way. While he did call her a mudblood, that doesn't mean that he didn't apologize to her later. They could have become friends in their last two years at Hogwarts.
As you said about what you wrote, it's a stretch, but it is a possible motivation.
Pregrine:
Snape's attitude toward Harry would probably include Harry getting recognition while Snape doesn't, but I do feel that there is much more to it.
After the Occlumency lessons, Snape has seen that Harry's life hasn't been a bowl of cherries. Snape also knows that Harry was at Voldie's rebirthing and was present when Cedric was murdered. Those aren't easy things for anyone to deal with, much less a kid.
Snape is an intelligent man, and for him to continue his utter antipathy after knowing things that Harry's been through, there would almost have to be much more to it than no recognition or what James did in the Pensieve scene.
Caput:
I agree with you that Snape wouldn't be so blinded as to let someone innocent be subjected to the Dementors.
Snape seems to lean more toward petty revenges such as giving Harry zeros and letting it "slip" that Lupin is a werewolf. Granted, he did ruin Lupin's teaching career with that "slip," but it wasn't the same as a Dementor's kiss.
He does like drawing blood with his sharp tongue, but I don't think he is so consumed that he doesn't understand the ramifications of his actions.
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 12:07 pm (#181 of 2956)
SJ, I admire your ability to come up with another far-fetched theory. We are not short of them on this board. I have my own theory, on the thread "My Theory Regarding Snape and the Prophecy."
I am more in line with Peregrine's thoughts concerning Snape's resentment. He hated James. Then here comes along Harry, obtaining glory for "simply living" and things seem to be handed to him on a silver platter. Quidditch star. Obtaining praise and house points for breaking rules--on occasion flaunting rules.
Weeny, I agree that Snape takes pleasure out of petty revenges. But when it comes to the big stuff, he steps in. When he went to the Shrieking Shack, it was with the express purpose of protecting those children. Even if they are children he detests, that is still his responsibility. He knew Lupin hadn't taken the woflsbane potion and that it was a full moon. Once he got there, he fully believed Sirius Black was guilty. It is unfortunate that he did not see Pettigrew reemerge. This is the perfect example of Snape acting on what he believes to be the facts, in the face of what is really happening. His actions are misunderstood and he comes off the bad guy for once again risking his life. Which, incidentally, also refutes SJ's theory.
SJ Rand, I hope this does not come off as snotty. But I would suggest you seriously consider before throwing around words like Psychotic. It is a very loaded term socially, but a very specific term psychiatrically. As a professional social worker who also teaches at the university level, I tend to bristle at the casual use of psychiatric terms. So forgive me. But anyway, Snape's world view is guided by his perception of events, and his life experiences just like the rest of us. But to be psychotic is to have a break from reality. Snape acts within the confines of reality as he knows it (factwise), which is a rational one, if sometimes emotionally frustrating, pessimistic and unhappy. He is suspicious and pessimistic realistically because of the life he's lead. He has reason to believe people are up to no good. He has reason to believe there are people out there ready to kill Potter--the one chance the wizarding world has to defeat Voldemort. He's gotten a rotten deal in life and he takes pleasure in making others suffer in small, ultimately insignificant ways because, as they say, misery loves company.
But he does not have a genuine loss of contact with reality. He isn't unreasonably paranoid. He does not act out violently. He's not delusional. He has his reasons for hating Harry, and we are not privy to them all but can have loads of fun guessiing what they may be. Perhaps, working so hard as he has, it's frustrating to see the child of your enemy come along as prince of the wizarding world just for being born. How frustrating would that be?! Especially when we know that Snape was a very bright student, and Harry is average and does not apply himself.
If he freaks out under stress--like when he loses it at the end of PoA, I do not think he's gone over the line to psychotic. He is bloody angry. Justifiably angry. His chance at recognition for stepping intot he line of fire is thwarted again. Yet he keeps on going. He keeps on working for DD, protecting and teaching the children, spying, and who knows what else, at great danger to himself. /end rant.
On another note, I am quite happily the President of the Detention with Snape! club Anyone who appreciates the Potions Master and wants to join is welcome to. So long as I get all the turns I want...
HP Fan - Dec 6, 2003 12:09 pm (#182 of 2956)
I know the Snape's Worst Memory has been discussed in length earlier but I've been mulling something over for a while, ad thought I might as well voice it. It sort of ties in with the discussion of his hatred of Harry and his ways of getting revenge. It's possible that Snape reacted in the way he did i.e., throwing Harry away from himself and then throwing jars at Harry to scare him [Harry] into leaving the room so that he wouldn't totally lose control of himself and end up harming/hurting Harry in some way. When I read that scene I felt that Snape was in some way keeping a very, very tight hold on himself and not just on Harry's arm :-).
From the Occulmency lesson's he'd seen that Harry's past wasn't a barrel of laughs, and neither was Snape's He'd even gone as far as praising Harry, admittedly reluctantly but he had praised him. And leaving the Pensive there certainly shows an amount of trust not present even in GoF where he suspects Harry of robbing his office! Yet Harry betrays that trust. Plus the memory could be hidden so that Harry doesn't see what his father was REALLY like - so that Harry didn't have even more things worrying him. Perhaps Snape couldn't trust HIMSELF to not react and lose control when he was on his own with Harry and that's why he never taught him again. Because your not telling me that McGonagall and DD and possible Lupin didn't try to persuade him to teach Harry again.
Does that make sense? Sorry I get myself in a bit of a muddle when posting.
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 12:16 pm (#183 of 2956)
Your post makes perfect sense, HP Fan. I like it! It shows a level of responsibility even in the midst of him having something of an emotional crisis. Well done!
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 12:26 pm (#184 of 2956)
Gina:
Yes, Snape was at the Shrieking Shack to protect those brats. He also, regardless of his personal feelings, did want to have Lupin take the Wolfsbane Potion. Those aren't the actions of someone who is psychotic.
I do think Harry is more than average, though. That he does not apply himself is evident, but the Sorting Hat said he had talent. I think that may be part of the reason Snape gets so angry with him. Harry has the ability and the talent but doesn't use it.
HP Fan:
I really like that theory... Snape couldn't trust himself not to lose control again.
I agree... while he was justifiably and intensely angry, he could have done much more to Harry than what he did. He does have a very tight hold on himself.
septentrion - Dec 6, 2003 12:49 pm (#185 of 2956)
I also think that Snape has great self-control in comparison with the emotions he feels. As you say, HPfan, in he had let go his anger totally after the pensieve scene,he would have hurt Harry physically.
Weeny Owl, and some others, you told that Snape wouldn't have called Lily a "mudblood" if he has loved her. I disagree : if he has loved her (which I don't think), he could on the contrary have wanted to insult her, and maybe whoever tried to help him. He felt so humiliated that he could have wanted her (and the others) to go and not see what was happening to him. Lily's kindness could have hurt him too. Well, it's difficult to say clearly what I mean, but sometimes, you are harsher with the people you love more. Moreover, if we keep the hypothesis that Snape loved lily, he couldn't admit it publicly because he was known by his slytherin friends as a "mudblood" hater. I hope my ideas are clear for everyone for I am not accustomed to write in English. Please, tell me if precisons are needed.
Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 2:23 pm (#186 of 2956)
septentrion:
I think Snape might have reacted so harshly because he was a fifteen-year-old boy being rescued by a girl. That would have been humiliating for him, but with him hanging upside down with his undies showing, it would have been much much worse.
Whether or not he loved her romantically, I doubt if he hated her or her blood status.
SJ Rand - Dec 6, 2003 4:54 pm (#187 of 2956)
Gina R. Snape:
First, let's look at what I wrote, Sorry, but Snape's behavior boarders on psychotic obsession. Actually, saying "boarders on" is being nice. At the least, it's an "idee fixe": thoughts the mind can't stop itself from returning to.
Next, please don't make assumptions about my own qualifications to proffer a diagnosis such as the above. You'd probably be surprised at what they are.
Snape, as written, is either a deep character who is obsessed with events from the past, or he's a caricature borrowed from a Dickens novel. Rowling hasn't given us much middle ground with him thus far. He has at times shown the ability to overcome his fixation, but in the end he always returns to it.
My far fetched theory, and it certainly was far fetched, was just my playing devil's advocate against myself to come up with a more positive explanation of his behavior. I don't believe it and couldn't even begin to defend it if I wanted to. Not that I do.
>But to be psychotic is to have a break from reality. Snape acts within the confines of reality
From some aspect of reality, certainly. It doesn't mean they can't be functional and even appear to be in full control. It doesn't even mean that they aren't often, or even mostly, really in control.
But Snape's behavior is not always rational. For just one example, he threatens to poison Neville's pet, and <as Rowling wrote it looked "sour" when the potion he used on the toad worked right. In his own words, he didn't expect it to work right. When it did, he took points from Hermione for helping Neville. Don't take my word for it, read the scene. (Beginning of chapter seven, page 128 American)
Did he secretly know that Hermione helped Neville get it right? That's the debate, I guess, but the words on the page don't indicate it. Not to me at least. So was he just putting on a show? For whom? And why?
Gina R Snape - Dec 6, 2003 5:18 pm (#188 of 2956)
Oh, I think he knew Hermione was helping Neville. He knew she was muttering directions to him under her breath. What was questionable, was how much repair she might have been able to do, depending upon her skill and how badly Neville had messed up in the first place.
I think he did that little scene for his own amusement, and maybe for the 'benefit' of the Slytherins. I thought it was funny. And I seriously doubt, had the potion been brewed incorrectly, that he would have inflicted any lasting harm on Neville's toad. But I guess that's one of the differences between us. I see Snape as inherently good, but with a wicked sense of humour. The way I see it, he created a scenario for Neville to have some incentive to pay attention.
And I still don't think anything Snape does borders on psychotic. I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree.
Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 6:38 pm (#189 of 2956)
I have a new theory about why Snape was so mean to Harry and Neville from day one.
What those two boys have in common ? They are both Griffindor, both born as July dies (and Snape could know what that mean) and they are both sons of OP members.
If I cross that information to what Timrew said on Draco Malfoy thread (post #210) :
I think JKR, with Draco, is giving us (especially us Brits) a supreme example of our class system at work.
The Malfoys are the 'elite' of the wizarding establishment. Pure Bloods who are admired and respected by other Pure Bloods [...].
An astounding (but true) thing about the upper classes, is that they take no notice whatsoever of any criticism from any source, especially if it comes from a class lower than themselves. The Upper Classes can do no wrong.....ever!
[...] [They] is right, and everyone else in the world is wrong.
I had concluded that as a known DE teaching to 4 DE sons and 2 OP member sons, he cannot act like he and his fellows DE were wrong. By giving good comments about the sons of is kind and by being meany to his ennemy's sons, he prove that he is a faithfull DE, not in Azkaban because he's more cunning.
Blast - Dec 6, 2003 7:44 pm (#190 of 2956)
I agree that Harry is not doing his best at school. Snape in his own way is trying to provoke Harry into doing better.If Snape compares Harry to James, and we know that James was a very bright student, then I think he will expect a better performance from Harry.
septentrion - Dec 7, 2003 11:59 am (#191 of 2956)
Gina, your new portrait is too funny ! But are you sure Snape said "Gina" ? ;-) By the way, I'm not sure that he is inherently good but sure he likes to have fun at the expense of the others. I'm even sure he had fun when professor Mac Gonagall couldn't look him in the face for weeks after the Slytherin quidditch team have beaten the Gryffindor team (SS chapter seven). But it doesn't mean that he dislikes those he has fun at their expense. Yet, he always keeps a straight face when doing it, so he seems to be nasty.
Little Ginny - Dec 7, 2003 12:18 pm (#192 of 2956)
Wouldn't all of us enjoy such a situation, if we were not Gryffindor fans?
I don't think the fact that Snape pointed out to McGonagall that his house had won the cup already says that Snape is bad, or has a bad character.
I only think that he has a very special idea of fun, and most people don't understand him. I won't say that inside he is a teddybear, or something like that, but in my opinion, he doesn't have an evil soul or stuff like that.
septentrion - Dec 7, 2003 1:30 pm (#193 of 2956)
In fact, Little Ginny, I totally agree with you, but I didn't write it clearly enough.
SJ Rand - Dec 7, 2003 2:24 pm (#194 of 2956)
This must be a female thing, similar to how most of the folks defending Cho in that thread were male. I'm at a loss for any other explanation of why the most despicable character to hit a fantasy series since the Baron Harkonnen in Dune has so many people strenuously defending him.
Tpujiko4444 - Dec 7, 2003 2:44 pm (#195 of 2956)
Maybe because people do not see him as just a black and white character. Yes, he does leave room for fantasising about him, and pretending that he is supposed to be more handsome than he is and such. But, character wise , there is a significant amount of evidence to believe that he is not as bad as he seems, and there is also a significant amount of evidence to think that he really is a truely evil creature. Either way, just because you cannot understand something, does not make it any less valid. That was insulting to all of the people on this board who have posted inteligent responses to your post and who have posted valid reasons for defending him. Just beacuse you see him like that does not make anyone else's vision of him any less valid. P.S. Do you really think that Snape is the most despicable character in a fantasy series since the Baron? Because if so.......wow. Because, I can give you rapists, truely sadistic people, people who committe genocide, destroy worlds, etc.
Weeny Owl - Dec 7, 2003 2:48 pm (#196 of 2956)
SJ:
I'm not sure it's a female thing as much as it's the way the character is written.
I completely and totally detest Draco and Lucius. Granted, Jason Isaacs is totally yummy, but the character of Lucius Malfoy makes my skin crawl.
I absolutely adore Lupin, Bill and Charlie, and Kingsley Shacklebolt. There are other male characters I like as well.
The thing about Snape is that while he may be unpleasant and not someone you'd want for a neighbor, he is trusted by Dumbledore and has saved Harry's life on more than one occasion.
He is a complicated character, multi-dimensional, and mysterious. I want to know WHY Dumbledore trusts him, what his motives were for leaving the Death Eaters, and all the whys and wherefores of his feelings about James and Harry.
On the surface he does seem to be horrid, but just like an iceberg, are we seeing a minute part of him or is that all there is?
If that's all there is, then I can go back to finding him vile, but if there's more, then I would like to see what lies beneath.
Caput Draconis - Dec 7, 2003 3:12 pm (#197 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 7, 2003 3:13 pm
It's perhaps a 'female thing' to romanticise Snape, and most times we see this it is from people drawing on things that aren't evident in the character the way he's written, and tending to talk away his bitterness, anger, cruelty etc to fit a fantasy.
I don't think that's what most of us are doing here. We're just searching through the layers that we believe exist, and that we can determine from his book characterisation. A pet hate (not that anyone here has done this) is have any Snape exploration be dismissed immediately as Rickman induced idiocy. There is plenty in the books to warrant the views in this thread. Rickman is a bonus.
At risk of being hypocritical... "Granted, Jason Isaacs is totally yummy, but the character of Lucius Malfoy makes my skin crawl." Too true...
Gina R Snape - Dec 7, 2003 3:26 pm (#198 of 2956)
Well said, Caput. We've debated the Snape/Rickman thing ad naseum, but your comments are well appreciated.
And yes, septentrion, I'm quite sure that's what he said!
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 4:03 pm (#199 of 2956)
There is something to be said for a character, even a mean one like Snape, who produces a sympathetic repsonse. I believe, based on how much we discuss his past and true (hidden) motivations that Snape has a very sad story to tell that will be revealed later. Also, I suspect a number of his fans may unconsciouly worry that he's the one who's going to buy the farm in the end just at the very moment when his inner goodness (or at least a darn good reason for his personality and behavior toward Harry) is revealed.
Just as Snape brings us to the brink of disgust when he overdoes it toward Harry or Neville, something usually comes up to remind us that despite all that, DD still trusts him, he's got a crucial role in protecting Harry, and he's a darn good potions master.
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 7, 2003 4:08 pm (#200 of 2956)
Tpujiko4444,
Yes, but I said the most despicable, not the most evil. Snape isn't even the most evil in HP land. Umbridge makes him look like Mary Poppins, and who needs to get started on Voldemort?
>That was insulting to all of the people on this board who have posted inteligent responses to your post...
I was actually thinking more of the quasi love mail that was gathering here before I even entered the thread, not any reply anyone made to something I'd posted.
Plus there's been more than just a bit of what I'd label sinnuendo. I'm not knocking it, I'm waiting for the Cho dangling upside down scene myself, but I'm not blind to subtle nuances of phraseology either. And no, I'm not going to give examples because the moderators will trash me if I do.
Madame Librarian,
No disagreement, but out of curiosity were you around before OotP came out? I ask because I'm still newish here, and I wonder how many sympathetic votes he got before the dirty undies thing came about. That scene could make many people pity the poor geek being abused by the nasty jock. Even I winced, and I don't like the guy.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 7, 2003 5:57 pm (#201 of 2956)
sinnuendo, very cute SJ. Off the Lex, the Snape fandom is well beyond the nuendo part, as I suspect you might already know. But what makes the Lex interesting, is that we are put to task to focus on other aspects--for all the characters. Hence no posts of "Draco is sooooo hoooooot." (except on April Fool's Day, of course).
As to your question, there were loads of Snape fans before OoP came out. When I entered the fray a little over a year ago, the Snape threads and theories were as active as this one is now. I thought for sure, after OoP, that more people would have turned towards sympathizing. Yes, the greying underpants scene was brutal. It brought forth a twinge of sympathy from some, even if it didn't make them believe Snape was on the side of good. But what I've found consistently is that most people seem to have turned towards a rethinking of Snape after reading the perspectives of us pro-Snape Lexiconers. The debate makes people see things from a different perspective. They reread the books in a whole new light. At least, that's what I've been told by some. And it's nothing to do with the baser elements, as it were.
I would generalise that statement to the entire Lex, in that, all the debates get us to rethink, reexamine, reread and rejoice.
Taylor Buetts - Dec 7, 2003 8:03 pm (#202 of 2956)
I've always liked Snape even from the beginning when he seemed to be the bad man and how Quirrel/Voldemort pointed that out to Harry. It might be his downfall as we all saw in GoF where Moody was ready to tell Dumbledore how fast Snapes mind went to Harry, but as the books went on he has his redeeming factors. He's wonderfully complex and one of the more interesting characters to watch.
oooo...I must say I love your Snape pic Gina!
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 8:14 pm (#203 of 2956)
SJ, to answer your question, I did not join the Forum till after OoP was released, so I have not read the rich and varied history of debate on Snape, just the material from the last few months. I have to be honest, though, when I read the first three books, I didn't dwell on Snape as much more than the meanie teacher who has it in for Harry, though I didn't doubt his ultimate loyalty to DD, due to the quidditch match scene in PS/SS. What it was that got me really thinking about him as a complex character was Rickman's portrayal. I saw a multi-dimensional intepretation that I had missed with the first reading. Of course, since then I have read and listened to all the books again and view Snape quite differently.
I don't consider myself one of the enamored ones, but I do think the fellow has a fascinating story to tell us, and figures somehow in JKR's major themes (love, choices, loyalty).
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 10:00 am (#204 of 2956)
Well, if nothing else you folks do have me paying more attention to the character as I've been re-reading the series. I'm not sure if that's good or bad when it comes to this discussion though.
For example, I remember reading here that Snape is considered to have rushed off to the Shrieking Shack to save the kids. I just read that scene last night, and he didn't even knew they were there. Snape to Lupin (PoA American page 358 first page of chapter 19):
"You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?", he said, his eyes glittering. "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did . . . lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
It's stated earlier that the passage he mentioned goes off the map, and the shack isn't on the map at all. Lupin arrived several minutes into the confrontation, within the shack, between the kids and Sirius. So Snape saw Lupin and, having suspected Lupin had been helping Sirius get into the castle, Snape figured Lupin was going in to talk to Sirius... who Snape very much wanted to be the one to recapture
His loyalty to Dumbledore doesn't stop short of him wanting to show that he knows better either (facing page to the above):
"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof..."
{omitted}
"Two more for Azkaban tonight," said Snape, his eyes now gleaming frantically. "I shall be quite interested to see how Dumbledore takes this... He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf --"
To me, this makes it very clear that Snape wasn't rushing off to protect the children, who weren't on the map when he saw it. He was rushing off to get Black and show that he (Snape) was right that Lupin couldn't be trusted.
Understandable motives, but no hint of altruism there.
Peregrine - Dec 8, 2003 10:28 am (#205 of 2956)
Just to illustrate what Gina said?when I first read the books (before OoP) I didn?t really think about Snape one way or another. I didn?t really like him too much for how he treated Harry and Neville and Lupin and Sirius, but I didn?t loathe him. When I started posting here (still before OoP) I read the Snape threads and started to realize there was more to the man than I had first realized and I started to actually like him (even though I usually didn?t like what he did). Then after the undies scene my feelings of ?there?s a whole lot more going on than we realized? were solidified and now Snape?s one of my favorites. My mother on the other hand?I forced her to read the series (as my birthday present last year). She finished just before OoP was released and all she really said about the books was that she hated Snape and she hoped he would die. Even after reading OoP she still couldn?t forgive him for what he?d done. But, if my mom were crazy like us, (crazy in the best way, of course) and she read all this fantastic debating going on, she?d probably realize there?s more to the man than just a petty git.
When I was reading the discussion on the larger amounts of females who tend to like Snape I was reminded of Sherlock Holmes. He was a character who was very cold, calculating, impatient and cynical. He disliked pretty much everyone and had a massive distrust of women and a drug habit. Holmes rarely smiled, rarely laughed and was a very closed-off person?Watson, who lived with him for years, knew very little about Holmes? private and family life. Logically he should be an unlikable character, but in fact Sherlock Holmes is beloved, and a majority of his fans are females.
I guess the unknown is just fascinating to us.
Edited to add: SJ, I?d say you?re right. It does seem that Snape initially went to the Shrieking Shack to snag Lupin and Sirius. ?Rescuing? the kids was just a bonus.
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 11:14 am (#206 of 2956)
The kids kind of blasted him into dreamland before he could rescue them. Not his fault, of course.
Out of curiosity.
Other than Snape doing the counter curse in PS/SS, which I think was nothing more or less than a literary device used by mystery writers to show us we've not only picked the wrong villain but that the villain was really trying to help....
Um, let me try that again.
Other than the counter curse, what are the instances where Snape is clearly doing something good? I don't mean acting nice, just doing something for someone else when he hasn't been told to do it?
What I can think of is:
He alerted the Order in OotP.
He defected from, and is a spy against, Voldemort.
What have I missed? Other than reading motives not stated into otherwise vile behavior, since one person's "tough love" is another person's "he just likes being nasty".
What are his redeeming qualities, the ones I'm obviously not seeing?
Weeny Owl - Dec 8, 2003 11:21 am (#207 of 2956)
I don't think Snape could ever be considered altruistic, but at the same time he tends to do what needs to be done in a way that works. He has a lousy "bedside manner," but he gets the job done.
When Quirrell was trying to kill Harry at the Quidditch match, Snape saved him.
He was with Dumbledore and McGonagall when all three saved Harry from Moody/Barty Crouch, Jr.
Even though he dislikes Lupin, he still made the Wolfsbane Potion for him.
He gave fake Veritaserum to Umbridge, and when she had the group cornered in her office, he not only didn't give her actual Veritaserum, he also saved Neville from being strangled to death.
If Harry were someone else, someone whose parents didn't have a history with Snape, his methods might be less harsh.
Snape is not a pleasant person, he is not the type to give sugar mice to someone the way Professor Flitwick did, he is often petty, and he does let his hatreds and jealousies dictate his actions at certain times.
He does not need to be pleasant, though, to want Voldie defeated. He can see to it that the students are prepared without being sweet and loving and giving them sugar mice. He can still save someone he detests and overcome his pettiness, hatred, and jealousies most of the time, even if he resents having to.
He is flawed, most definitely. He could not completely overcome his hatred after the Pensieve incident. He cannot resist taunting Sirius and feeling superior because Sirius was stuck at 12 Grimmauld Place.
As for redeeming qualities, he may not have any to speak of except realizing that Voldie must be eliminated in order to save the Wizarding World.
JKR has written a complicated character and one whose ways are anathema to most of us, but doing what is right and good and beneficial to Wizard-kind doesn't have to be done by someone we like.
Gina R Snape - Dec 8, 2003 12:44 pm (#208 of 2956)
SJ Rand, there is a list somewhere on this or the EZBoard temporary forum (or both). Unfortunately, I haven't got the time right now to re-research it. But I was able to find evidence of incidences in each and every book when this argument came up before.
I do have a response to the Shrieking Shack scene, but it's going to have to wait.
In the meantime, I encourage, ne, implore Weeny, Barb, fidelio, Sly Girl, or anyone else who has followed these arguments to list what they remember in my absence. I deeply apologise, for I truly love trumpeting the list of our Potion Master's unrecognised efforts. But I'm in the midst of grading final exams and creating a new syllabus, etc. Which, by the way, is also my way of saying that crunch time is upon me and I may seem to be more absent from the board than usual, temporarily of course. This is one of the few threads I consistently hover over, well, like the Master waiting to strike.
And, to borrow a quote from Sirius--the world isn't split into good people and death eaters. Snape is not nice but I do believe he is good. And he is a former death eater. If that alone does not make him one of JKR's most fascinating and complex characters, then I don't know who is.
SarcasticGinny - Dec 8, 2003 12:53 pm (#209 of 2956)
Hey Weeny, you forgot him rolling up his sleeve to show the death eater mark to Fudge in GOF to try to convince him that Voldemort was back. I was sick of Snape after his misbehavior in POA, but that moment made me feel some humanity coming from the guy, and since then, I've tried to keep an open mind. Imagine how much guts that had to take for him to pull his sleeve up and expose his past in front of everyone, just in hopes that Fudge might finally believe. To pull a Phineus here, I disagree with Snape on many counts, but he DOES have a style in some regards, and I respect the man...for now.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 8, 2003 2:27 pm (#210 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 8, 2003 2:28 pm
When he knew what revulsion that would rouse in everyone... I think that act took some guts.
Did Fudge even understand the significance of this gesture? He merely says something like, "I don't know what your staff are playing at..."
I do agree that PoA shows Snape at his very worst. We are shown that he is deeply prejudiced against werewolves (does he dislike Lupin because of his condition, or dislike him as a person? Or, as Harry put it, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" Or all of these?... It's quite a list of motives). We are shown his utter moral blindness: he'd rather "get back" at Sirius than have justice served (i.e. by not sending an innocent man back to Azkaban). And his paranoia/ fury when he realises that he has been foiled, and Sirius has escaped... We know that he's right in saying that 'Potter' (I do wish he would use his name for once), had a hand in it somewhere, but he doesn't come out of the scenario looking good. No wonder Fudge describes him as "unstable".
I myself wonder at how close his relationship with Crouch Junior was. The use of the name "Barty" suggests some sort of bond, since Snape very seldom uses people's names, and definitely not nicknames/shortenings. Are the Death Eaters really a sort of family, with a common regard for one another, or were he and Crouch particular friends? (And how old is Crouch Jr anyway?)
Redemptive touches are added after then (although it was cruel of him to say he saw no difference as regards Hermione's teeth). I'm a fan of Snape insofar as he is a complex and compellingly written character, but I doubt I'll be able to like him as a "person".
Sly Girl - Dec 8, 2003 3:18 pm (#211 of 2956)
Does anyone else think it odd that for almost the entire first part of the year, Harry was studying the Draught of Peace in Potions and it was probably the very thing that would have helped him cope with everything? I find it interesting that not only by having Snape be the character that is attempting to teach Harry a way of dealing with Voldemort's ever growing prescence in his head, JKR also chose to have Snape be the Professor that was teaching something that would calm your nerves. It just struck me as interesting that Snape would be the bearer of both methods and yet (still) Harry didn't learn from either.
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 3:21 pm (#212 of 2956)
Psychedelic Enchantress: >> I'm a fan of Snape insofar as he is a complex and compellingly written character, but I doubt I'll be able to like him as a "person".
Now that's a statement I have absolutely no trouble agreeing with.
For my own part, I'll reiterate that since it doesn't seem that she's going push him onto the back burner, I'd like to see Rowling light a fire under this character and show some more aspects of him. There isn't much good having a "complex" character who just keeps doing essentially the same things over and over.
We've seen more depth of action and emotion in Fudge, and he's supposed to be a minor character. I think.
Neville Longbottom - Dec 8, 2003 9:13 pm (#213 of 2956)
About PoA: While I completely loathe Snape in this book, I also want to defend him. I think his behaviour towards Lupin has more to do with who Lupin is (namely one of the Marauders), not what he is (a werewolf). He shows no prejudice towards Hagrid, the half-giant. The only scene, where he shows dislike, because of what somebody is, was in the pensieve scene with Lily. And this was in a deeply ashaming situation for him.
Also, while Snape threatens to send Sirius directly to the Dementors, without going with him to the castle or Dumbledore's office first, he doesn't do it. After the Dementor attack, Snape was the first who became counscious again, he could have done, whatever he wanted, with Sirius. But he didn't. He chose the official way. His behaviour in this scene was still horrible, but it's not that he took "justice" in his own hands.
I also want to add, that his mean behaviour in Occlumency is only for Harry's best. I like Snape as a character, but I think he is a horrible teacher and he would be my worst nightmare as a teacher. But in Occlumency, it's all about Harry closing his mind. And if he isn't able to resist Snape mean remarks, he will in no way be able to close his mind in front of Voldemort, the murderer of his parents.
I also want to add, that JKR could have made Quirrell the villain in PS, without Snape saving Harry's life.
popkin - Dec 9, 2003 1:58 am (#214 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 9, 2003 2:07 am
Sly Girl, your comments about the Draught of Peace are interesting. They remind me of Snape telling Harry that he has no subtlety. And, he's right. Harry tends to be very slow on the uptake - especially if he is blocked by his negative feelings for someone (Snape).
Despite the fact that Snape has repeatedly proved himself to be trustworhy, and has tried very hard (at least in his own estimation) to help Harry, Harry has resisted all of Snape's efforts. Harry is not an unusual person when he rejects Snape's help - most people would reject the help of a person who clearly hates them. However, if Harry were able to look at Snape objectively (not likely in the near future), and accept the subtle (and not so subtle - ie. "don't break the rules", "practice occlumency every night before you fall asleep", "don't wear your heart on your sleeve") clues that Snape is dropping, he would be better armed for future encounters with LV.
Of course, I didn't notice that Snape was dropping any hints about the Draught of Peace either. Just like Harry, no matter what Snape does, I don't trust him.
Romana - Dec 9, 2003 3:57 am (#215 of 2956)
Snape has constantly shown that he has a flair for the drama, (his entrance to the class room in the first book, standing behind Harry and Ron in COS 'or maybe he is standing right behind you wondering why you two weren't on the train (oh why did the cut that line? It would have been so funny in the film... I think I've just answered my own question...)and so on) Not to mention his sacastic sense of humour, that scene in Umbridge's office had me in fits! Basically, I think he's acting. Remember we only have Harry's view on Snape, and how Hary sees Snape. Harry hates Snape, so naturally all Hary is going to see is the worst of Snape and naturally not pay any attention at all when (if) Snape proves himself innocent.
I leave this forum for a few days and suddenly I have over 100 posts to read..
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 10:13 am (#216 of 2956)
I think it would be nice to see how Snape interacts with the other professors (aside from the occasional dig at McGonagall). It must be strange for him to be a peer to many people who were once his teachers?who knew him when he was a greasy little oddball.
Along the same lines, in the beginning of OoP, when Harry first gets to #12, they enter the house and everyone is excited because someone has just arrived. I don?t remember if it said who, but I always assumed they were talking about Snape because he was there to give his report (although I guess it could have been Dumbledore?could someone with the book check?). Anyway, it looks like Snape is very respected within the order, a respect he may not have gotten the first time around if no one knew he was a spy. This sort of interaction with other people (besides bratty students) might help in humanizing Snape more. He?ll get the respect he deserves for risking his life and maybe he?ll be a tiny bit happier.
Just speculation and hope on my part.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 10:39 am (#217 of 2956)
I don't remember people being excited. But I do remember a flurry of activity around him as he left. That's when Harry looked down and saw his black hair and big nose sticking out.
The question is, were they excited to be hearing the news from Snape, or just excited to hear the news?
On another note, I was thinking about CoS last night on my way home. As I've said, I don't have time to go through the books right now. But I thought of one thing--debatable as it might be. In the dueling club scene, Snape volunteers to be Lockhart's 'assistant.' Now, I think we might all agree that any of the staff would be loathe to call themselves an assistant to Lockhart. I think he volunteered for this little duty to keep an eye on things and ensure the children's safety. It was clear, within a matter of seconds, that Lockhart was more about preening and less about preparing the children for duels. Snape steps in and not only rearranges who partners with whom, but does the finite incantatum when things get out of hand. Surely, he did not volunteer for such a task because of his love of Lockhart and wanting to nurture the kids in extra-curricular activities.
On a side note, it has been hotly debated whether Snape instructed Malfoy to use 'serpensortia' on Harry. Yes, the snake could represent Slytherin. But Snape did not seem surprised that Malfoy conjured one, and was lazily ready to get rid of it. The bigger controversy in that is whether or not Snape wanted to see if Harry was a parselmouth. I say that because the portraits overhead that Harry is hearing voices when the basilisk was released by Tom Riddle via Ginny. He may have put two and two together in that way Snape has of putting two and two together, and this was the perfect opportunity. Snape had a calculating expression on his face in that scene. It made Harry uncomfortable. Calculating is not the expression of a man who is surprised in my opinion.
I'm slowly rereading PoA at night, about a half a chapter at a time before falling asleep. I will eventually get back to the Shrieking Shack scene and respond to SJ. But I concur with what Neville has said. And, you know, I never thought about the idea that JKR didn't "have" to set up Snape as a red herring to make Quirrell the bad guy. I actually would argue she did have to set him up as a red herring, because it set the tone for the kids to continue distrusting him throughout the series. And I'm sure that will ultimately serve a purpose other than to torture and entertain us.
So, I finished the scene last night where Snape accuses Harry of obtaining the Marauders Map 'directly from the manufacturer' and that line, no, that whole scene of undercurrent between Snape, the map, and Lupin gets funnier and funnier every time I read it. I was also struck by how Snape describes James strutting around with his friends and admirers. And of course, this time I was immediately transported to the Pensieve scene where the Marauders ganged up and hung him upside-down. Ah, JKR is a genius. I'm sure she wrote it exactly that way so that memory would come to mind upon a reread.
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 10:54 am (#218 of 2956)
I think you?re probably right about Snape and Lockhart, Gina?either that or Dumbledore asked him to keep an eye on things. However you look at it, Snape agreed to be a lowly assistant?unless of course he had some ulterior motive (i.e. setting things up so a snake could attack Harry?after all, Flitwick was a champion, why not have him assist?). But if that were the case I think we may have heard more about it since CoS. Sheesh, now I?m contradicting myself. I need a Pensieve so I can sort out all my thoughts on Snape before I post. Or, if I can?t have that, how about book 6, shortly followed by book 7, one of which should have the answer.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 11:03 am (#219 of 2956)
Or, "JKR--the Official Guide and Final Answer to all those millions of theories and questions everyone has..."
and an interview in which she tells us "I can't tell you that...it might be important to book 8, which may or may not ever get written"
Followed by the series I've been praying for for ages now... "The Snape Chronicles"
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 1:41 pm (#220 of 2956)
And then hopefully that will be followed up with Marauding Memoirs: The True Life Exploits of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. (Chapter 7 ? What really happened between Sirius and Snape)
Wishful thinking. *sigh*
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:19 pm (#221 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Dec 9, 2003 9:02 pm
If it wouldn't be plagiarism and so on, I would have a dab at writing that myself... I adore the Marauders, despite the nastier side shown in 'Snape's Worst Memory'.
Edit: I edited a line out of here since it did not conform to the Philosophy of the Forum. If you have a question, as always, feel free to contact me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
SJ Rand - Dec 9, 2003 2:20 pm (#222 of 2956)
Snape "assisted" Lockhart, an obvious blowhard, for a chance to take him down in front of the students. Most of the other teachers would probably have enjoyed doing it, but they don't belittle each other in front of the students. Snape doesn't have this compunction. When opportunity presented itself, he took it and wasted little time in laying Lockhart out, showing everyone who the "assistant" was. Actually that was one of the few times I enjoyed Snape's sadism. A lot.
He rearranged partners to get his house into position to take out Gryffindor students, Draco verses Harry in particular. Draco comes from an old wizarding family well versed in the dark arts. Harry was muggle raised. Obviously Draco was going to win. He didn't, so...
the snake was meant to strike terror into Harry and leave him standing there looking like a fool. Snape didn't expect what happened, but he isn't one who'll allow surprise to keep him from calculating how new information might be used to his advantage. Why a Snake? As said, it's the Slytherin symbol. What better way to make Harry a fool and show which house is superior and doesn't suffer fools gladly, both at the same time?
Keeping one character as the obvious evil one shows economy of writing on Rowling's part. She doesn't have to create an new evil diversion every time, just the primary evil. Unfortunately, she also over plays Snape's teaching "style", something we know about and could easily presume with only the smallest hint. That's part of why I said she needs to do something different with him.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:28 pm (#223 of 2956)
I've always seen it as such a waste. He's obviously very talented- whether as a Leglimens/Occlumens, Potions master, or wannabe Dark Artist (cringe! What an awful thought! It makes you think of some dodgy Baroque type painting!)... and, if he hadn't been driven by the spike of meanness and hatred, would probably be a gifted teacher.
As it is, he doesn't have the slightest grain of compassion, or social skills. While he may be a 'good man', he shall never get anyone to appreciate his finer qualities by behaving like a brat in the Latency period.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 2:36 pm (#224 of 2956)
SJ Rand wrote: "Actually that was one of the few times I enjoyed Snape's sadism. A lot. "
Well, at least you enjoyed it in that scene. There is hope for you yet.
Snape wanted to set up Gryffindor against Slytherin, for sure. But there was no way for him to know the side he wanted to win would win. Rather, it is a real life opportunity for potential adult rivals to start getting on with it early. As much as I am loathe to admit, the majority of Slytherins do seem to be death eaters in breeding and in training. More can be accomplished by pitting them against others than against themselves, or for that matter for any students who habitually hang out to play amongst themselves. This is an example of Snape being a good teacher, in my opinion. Splitting up the "dream team" as he puts it, means splitting up other cliques as well. Any teacher knows you have to do that often to accomplish learning goals.
Showing Lockhart who was the real assistant was delicious icing on the cake.
I, for one, love this stuff and will never get bored of it. I seek out fanfiction where the writers know how to "write Snape" and not turn him into a fluffy ball of niceness (and write some of it too). His turns of phrase and new means of torturing the students are extremely entertaining. But again, it's amusing for him, but works to teach the students as well.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:39 pm (#225 of 2956)
It was good to see Lockhart exposed as a useless pillock (not that we hadn't guessed that already). I like the way it was conveyed in the film: when Lockhart falls flat on his back, everyone bursts into laughter, even Harry. Hermione is the only one to show concern for the scuppered ninny
("Is he all right?" "Who cares!")
Priceless.
Devika - Dec 11, 2003 2:01 am (#226 of 2956)
JKR,I feel has shown great talent in portraying Snape's character, especially considering that it is all from Harry's perspective. Harry has never had any feelings but hatred for Snape, yet as readers, a whole different message comes across in which Snape is this highly complex character.
My understanding is that the roots of Snape's behaviour can be traced to his childhood, where he was a part of an abusive household, and a student who apparently didn't enjoy much popularity (okay I know this is prejudiced, but which Slytherin has been genuinely popular - and in any case he was the victim of the marauders' taunts and hatred). I believe that a large part of his personality is an aura that he has cultivated in a sort of defence mechanism around him since he never seems to have had many genuine friends.As Romana mentioned, he shows a certain flair for drama - this is a common attention-seeking act.Attention-seeking may be too strong a term, but the idea is that this dramatic personality is very noticeable. This coupled with his hatred for James makes him a particularly 'hateable' character.
Dumbledore, it appears has a shrewd understanding of his character and has used his intelligence and passionate nature to the Order's advantage. At the same time, by denying him the DADA post, as JKR has said in an interview, he has tried to avoid bringing out the worst in Snape.
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 9:41 am (#227 of 2956)
Snape doesn't need a defense mechanism in dealing with these students, he's not exactly teaching inner city tough guys from a Hollywood Death In The Classroom movie, and we've never seen the real teachers displayed as anything less than publically supportive of each other. McGonagall's reactions to Trelawney being an understandable exception. By "real" I mean those that aren't transient DADA teachers. They're a whole other story.
Personally I don't care how he feels about James. He could burn an effigy of the man every night before bed. My umbrage is from his behavior towards the living, Harry and Neville in particular, though no one outside of Slytherin seems immune.
We do see things from Harry's perspective, but even within that perspective the spoken dialog stands exactly as written. So do the displayed actions. Parts about Snape's facial expressions, and any interpretations of motive, could be colored by Harry's feelings, but what Snape says and is seen to do are what Snape says and does.
I especially like this paraphrased quote: At the same time, by denying him the DADA post, as JKR has said in an interview, he has tried to avoid bringing out the worst in Snape.
Good move. If he got much worse, he might end up on sabbatical in Azkaban.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 11:19 am (#228 of 2956)
SJ Rand wrote: "Good move. If he got much worse, he might end up on sabbatical in Azkaban."
LOL. So, what would that be called then? Snark takes a holiday?
I wonder if Severus has had enough joy in his life for the Dementors to take away...
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 11:42 am (#229 of 2956)
The joy of tormenting Harry and Neville. Exposing Lupin, twice in the same year. Working Lockhart over in that dueling club. Being right, over Dumbledore's opinion, about Lupin being the one helping Black and being dangerous. Winning the House Cup seven years running. Taking house points away for one student helping another get an assignment right, and for "being an insufferable know it all". Taunting Sirius while he was essentially imprisoned in the Black house. Draco saying that Snape should be the new headmaster after the governors ousted Dumbledore.
Nor does he seem all broken up inside over Sirius getting killed. At least not so much as have enough sympathy over Harry's loss to keep him from adding to Harry's misery in the confrontation with Draco.
As the old song goes, "We'll have these moments to remember".
Neville Longbottom - Dec 11, 2003 12:34 pm (#230 of 2956)
While I don't think this exuses everything Snape has done, especially his behaviour towards Neville and Harry or the comment about Hermione's teeth, Snape has to be mean towards the Gryffindors to some extent. If he behaves to nice, Malfoy and company would probably start to suspect him. Especially the last scene in OotP seemed to me a lot like that he just tried to keep his cover in front of Draco.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 2:31 pm (#231 of 2956)
Oooh, SJ. You have a good point. Those are happy memories for Snape! They put a smile on my face on his behalf! He'd especially appreciate the part about righting DD about Lupin and knowing Sirius is dead.
I still think they are small highlights in an otherwise unhappy life, though.
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 4:04 pm (#232 of 2956)
Neville,
If he wants to keep his cover in Voldemort's eyes, he should be less taunting. As I maintained earlier, from Voldemort's perspective he's just being too obvious. In fact if I were Voldemort, I'd suspect him of doing exactly what posters here think he's doing: Putting on a show. Voldemort is not a fool.
Gina R Snape,
I just added this thread because this will go off topic to Snape, but look at all of the characters in this series who haven't exactly had wonderful lives. I've been wondering recently if it's at all accidental, or if Rowling is purposely contrasting the effects of loss, abandonment, and varying levels of suffering or abuse in shaping the current attitudes and behavior of several key characters.
Of the characters whose lives we know anything about, only Hermione, Seamus, and Cedric seem to have had a good home life, and I'm not really sure about Seamus or Cedric.
Sharker11 - Dec 11, 2003 6:57 pm (#233 of 2956)
Hey I'm just wondering what people think of the following: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Its a wonderful essay. First question I have is where did Snape save Harry's life, I thought he tried to, but Granger did. Second, while it might not be 'psychotic,' he and a rather large number of people, 'Peter,' have a rather unhealthy obsession with James and Harry.
Thirdly having the kid learn Occlumency, without telling him why and in that environment, was about as intelligent as thinking their is such a thing as safety through ignorance.
Last, I think Albus has a few more things to worry about then having Harry and Snape on talking terms.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 7:16 pm (#234 of 2956)
I don't think we should let the fact that Hermione accidentally distracted Quirrell detract from the fact that Snape was trying to save Harry's life. Not only did he "mutter his little counter-curse" at the game, he volunteered to referee the next game to ensure his safety.
I agree that keeping Harry in the dark was sheer stupidity, among other things, on Dumbledore's part. But it's part of what makes those particular scenes so fascinating to read, in my opinion. You can practically see the wheels turning as Snape tries to keep calm and think about how to address Harry, answer his questions and obtain information all at the same time whilst remaining under Dumbledore's orders not to divulge anything to Harry. It's like there are 3 layers of text in those chapters and JKR handles it very very well.
And, I hope this hard lesson on Dumbledore's part will lead to a new era of openness in the next two books. Maybe it will mean Harry is clued in on more of what the Order is up to and, consequently, what kinds of things Snape is doing.
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 11, 2003 9:31 pm (#235 of 2956)
The joy of tormenting Harry and Neville...
Does this really bring joy to Snape? The poor creature is so miserable and tortured himself, I really can't see those moments as being joyful or bringing joy to him. The misery of others may momentary easy some past hurt or pain, but is that truely joyful?
Neville Longbottom - Dec 12, 2003 1:10 am (#236 of 2956)
@ SJ Rand:
Voldemort is not a fool, but Draco Malfoy is. And I can very well see Draco trusting Snape and Snape learning some important informations, because of this. Umbridge told Snape, that "Lucius Malfoy speaks most highly of [him]".
SJ Rand - Dec 12, 2003 3:06 pm (#237 of 2956)
Neville,
Draco isn't the only person seeing Snape's consistently over the top behavior, and isn't the only student at Hogwarts who has parents that were, or are, Death Eaters.
"The night has a thousand eyes" and "the walls have ears". Moody was perhaps too paranoid, but is Snape paranoid enough (if it's all supposed to be an act)?
Blast - Dec 13, 2003 12:46 pm (#238 of 2956)
The only time that I think that Snape is truely joyed is when he sees Proffesor McGonnegal return from St. Mungo's. Yes there are other times such as when after the capture of Sirius, but I think that was more of a look what I did thing more than happiness. Snape is like the people behind other great people. I am sure that some of the great generals from the past would not of been so great if not for their staffs. They are only remembered in history because of either ego or publicity have made them who they became. We see Snape as being disappointed a few times. He wants to show the Wizarding World that he is a great Wizard, but he is constantly being left out or overshadowed in the glory. Maybe when things are all settled Snape will recieve his due recognition and then he can settle down with a beautiful intelligent wife, write his memoirs and be the happy person we all know is inside him.
SJ Rand - Dec 13, 2003 1:07 pm (#239 of 2956)
The only way Snape has a happy person inside him is if he ate Santa Claus.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Dec 13, 2003 3:00 pm (#240 of 2956)
SJ, that's priceless!
boop - Dec 13, 2003 4:43 pm (#241 of 2956)
SJ- that made me laugh, thanks
Here is maybe a wide idea. Could Snape be a metamorphmagus like Tonks? Could be a way of spying for the order. JKR makes a connection with Snape when Tonks is entertains Hermione and Ginny at the dinner table. Tonks makes her nose beak like protuberance like Snaps. Chapter 5, pg. 85.
ElfWorks - Dec 14, 2003 8:24 pm (#242 of 2956)
well, I posted this before, but apparently, my expressing love of AR got this thought moved to the cast thread, but my point was that my theory isnt influenced by my love of AR..... anyway, i believe that snape became a DE as a double agent acting for the good guys. this explains so many things and his expertise at occlumency and legilmens would make him a good secret agent and explain why dumbledore supports him so wholeheartedly!
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 15, 2003 7:28 am (#243 of 2956)
Over on the thread SJ Rand created about characters' pasts, Rand himself posited that Snape is not a major character. While this came as something of a surprise to me that anyone would not consider Snape a major character, he certainly has the right to his opinion. And it does raise some interesting questions.
So, I thought I'd open it up here, since it's more the appropriate thread. Do people think Snape is a major character who is "back-story" driven? Or do people think he's just a generic baddie for whom we've learned some extra bits of information?
Naturally, I think Snape is a major character. Not just because I love him so. But he has been a driving force behind the kids in so many ways. They constantly debate his allegiance and intentions. Yet the way I see it, in every book he does something to help the kids in a fundamental way. He is nasty to their faces, but he is also a spy for the Order. He is, to me, the epitome of someone who is good without being nice. And I predict he will play a major part in books 6 and 7.
What does everyone else think?
Oh, and I've been meaning to post this for days. But one of Severus' major contribution in book 2 was to teach Harry Expelliarmus, which served to save Harry's life in GoF.
ElfWorks - Dec 15, 2003 8:38 am (#244 of 2956)
Well, I must say, I fail to see how anyone could in any way not consider Snape to be a major character. I will go read SJ Rand's post, but if what you say is true...... well, it makes no sense. Professor Severus Snape, Potions Master is most definitely, in my opinion, a major character. He figures prominantly in story lines in all of the books to date. He clearly has a major role in the Order (please see my previous post just above). I cast my vote with Ms. snape; He IS a major character!
xo
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 9:45 am (#245 of 2956)
Oh, I think he's become a major character, I just don't think he began that way.
Some characters "write themselves" and end up doing things the author never intended. Other times the writer wants to do something and has to decide whether a known character can do it for them or if they have to introduce a new one.
I'd be willing to bet that Rowling was as surprised as the rest of us when she found out that Snape was a defected DE now spying for the order. Just as the useless rat became a device to get Pettigrew into the story as an animagus, something I'm sure it was not when she wrote the first two books.
Before book five, Snape was Hagrid in a Grinch suit. He did things that ran alongside the main story, but he didn't move the main story. Even in PoA, everything that happened could still have played out exactly the same without Snape being there.
That's the test of a whether a character is major or minor: Does he consistently effect, or contribute to, the main plot. If not, then he's a minor character used for convenience or color. Even Hagrid is mostly a minor character. Rowling didn't need him to break down the door where the Dursley's were hiding Harry, any other teacher could have apperated into that shack.
Disarming was not something Snape intentionally taught the kids. Snape used it on Lockhart to show him up, then Lockhart covered his humiliation by deciding that was what the kids should learn. It wasn't Snape's desire to teach it to them, it grew out of side motivated actions. Harry uses it far more than the Patronus spell, but it was Lupin's intention that Harry learn that one, as it was Crouch/Moody's intention to teach resisting an Imperious spell.
>I predict he will play a major part in books 6 and 7.
I don't doubt that. Rowling put enough effort into his existence in book five to make that a very good possibility.
What I don't see is what "contributions" he's made to the kids other than books one and five.
The kids learning Expelliarmus was a side effect, as I've said. And had they not learned it then, they would have learned it in PoA (Black used it on them), still in time to save Harry's life in GoF. All Snape did in book three was give Rowling an excuse to have Lupin resign, which could have been done in a hundred other ways, and in book four his contribution to the story was allowing Hermione to have her "overlarge" teeth shrunk.
At least that's all I can remember as far as direct action goes.
Weeny Owl - Dec 15, 2003 10:42 am (#246 of 2956)
I might agree with you, SJ, except JKR has had the basic storyline of these books for quite some time.
If I wanted to search for interviews, I could give you quotes. Not just about Snape, but also about her writing process.
I think she intended him to be necessary throughout all the books because he is not only featured significantly in the first book, but he also has his own chapter title in that book. No other character does.
In CoS, the first person they run into at Hogwarts is Snape, and whether or not he accidentally or intentionally taught Harry "Expelliarmus" is something only JKR knows for sure.
In PoA, again, he has his own chapter title plus he is featured significantly.
In GoF, we learn some interesting things about Karkaroff, Sirius gives us information about Snape and the Death Eaters, and near the end, Snape is one of the Hogwarts staff who saves Harry from Crouch, Jr. - one of only three. We also know Dumbledore sent him on a mission of some kind which seemed dangerous.
In the fifth book, he again has his own chapter title, but we learn even more about him such as the fact that he's in the Order, he saves Harry with the fake Verituserum, he has a history with Harry's mother that we've never seen before, we learn all about Occlumency and Legilimency, he saves Neville from being strangled, and he helps to save all six kids by alerting the Order.
Sirius was introduced in the first book yet we didn't see him again until the third. Expelliarmus was introduced in the second book but Harry didn't really need it again until the third and later in the fourth. There are other instances of things, people, or places introduced early that are important later. Snape is a constant.
Snape's significance to the series is something we're not told in one fell swoop, but in bits and pieces. With a character as mysterious as this one, I doubt JKR intended him to be minor.
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 12:21 pm (#247 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I might agree with you, SJ, except JKR has had the basic storyline of these books for quite some time.
Yes, the basic storyline. But I doubt she knew what every PS/SS character, and item, would be doing by book three, let alone by book five. Characters grow, things get changed, even the most detailed outlines get altered for new ideas.
>Snape is one of the Hogwarts staff who saves Harry from Crouch, Jr..
I'm not "picking on" you here, but this is the fifth or sixth time I've seen that mentioned. Does anyone think that Dumbledore needed either Snape or McGonagall to defeat Crouch Jr.? Snape was in the scene so Dumbledore could send him out for Veritaserum.
>In the fifth book, he again has his own chapter title,
In the fifth book he became a major character. He moved the main plot by tying in with Harry's dreams and getting the Order members to the Ministry. I don't doubt that Rowling at least had the idea during book three that he might come into his own, but in book three, for all his back story, he was still just a comic book villan. YOU DON'T KNOW POTTER! HE DID IT! I KNOW HE DID IT!
>Sirius was introduced in the first book yet we didn't see him again until the third. Expelliarmus was introduced in the second book but Harry didn't really need it again until the third and later in the fourth.
This is where folks can begin thinking the writer is omniscient. Writers do plan many things in advance, but they also re-use existing things that they had no idea were going to be key when first written. Neither way is more effective than the other, nor makes a writer better or worse at her craft.
Remember, the wands did not want to fight each other. Casting the disarming spell isn't what caused the wands to lock. Casting any spell would have done it. The key point wasn't which spells were cast, but that both the wands were casting at each other at the same time. If Harry had used the stun spell he learned through Hermione it would have had the same result.
septentrion - Dec 15, 2003 12:40 pm (#248 of 2956)
Well, it's difficult to add an idea which would not have been expressed. I'm the opinion that Snape is a major character, but it's as if his importance has been hidden, discreet. But he is necessary to the plot so JKR arranged it so that we never lose sight of him until he is revealed as a major character. Yet, even before OotP I have considered him as a major character because he is important in the trio's everyday life, as well as McGonagall : he's one of their most described teachers. They have several teachers, and not all of them are described or spoken of as much as Snape is, though he's neither their house's head nor their friend. Even Trelawney, which could be considered like a major character (her predictions have made her unavoidable), seems less important than Snape.
Weeny Owl - Dec 15, 2003 12:45 pm (#249 of 2956)
SJ - "Snape was in the scene so Dumbledore could send him out for Veritaserum."
The same could be said for quite a few characters and the reasons for them being where they are and doing what they do. McGonagall's reason for being there was to bring Sirius to Dumbledore's office, yet that doesn't make her character a minor one.
JKR could have used different characters for major scenes, but she didn't. That seems rather telling to me.
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 2:45 pm (#250 of 2956)
It seems that we're all coming from different directions as to what "major" means. I posted my definition of "major" earlier. I might be tempted to call some characters "major" because I like them, but I won't. McGonagall is not "major", although she had a major role in book one; getting Harry onto the Quidditch team. Nor is Lupin, except for book three.
There's another thought. "Major" to the entire series, and "major" to a book in the series. Snape was "major" in OotP. Crouch was "major" to GoF. Lupin had his book, as did Umbridge. Dumbledore had, I think, two books, otherwise he's a substitute narrator.
At this point, (I think) the only characters I'd classify as "major" throughout the entire series are Harry, Hermione, and Ron. The rest are support characters, there to fill a specific purpose. Some do it on a recurring basis, others have just one or two books. Some recurring characters serve as major characters for a book or two, then become part of the chorus again.
sinnuendo, very cute SJ. Off the Lex, the Snape fandom is well beyond the nuendo part, as I suspect you might already know. But what makes the Lex interesting, is that we are put to task to focus on other aspects--for all the characters. Hence no posts of "Draco is sooooo hoooooot." (except on April Fool's Day, of course).
As to your question, there were loads of Snape fans before OoP came out. When I entered the fray a little over a year ago, the Snape threads and theories were as active as this one is now. I thought for sure, after OoP, that more people would have turned towards sympathizing. Yes, the greying underpants scene was brutal. It brought forth a twinge of sympathy from some, even if it didn't make them believe Snape was on the side of good. But what I've found consistently is that most people seem to have turned towards a rethinking of Snape after reading the perspectives of us pro-Snape Lexiconers. The debate makes people see things from a different perspective. They reread the books in a whole new light. At least, that's what I've been told by some. And it's nothing to do with the baser elements, as it were.
I would generalise that statement to the entire Lex, in that, all the debates get us to rethink, reexamine, reread and rejoice.
Taylor Buetts - Dec 7, 2003 8:03 pm (#202 of 2956)
I've always liked Snape even from the beginning when he seemed to be the bad man and how Quirrel/Voldemort pointed that out to Harry. It might be his downfall as we all saw in GoF where Moody was ready to tell Dumbledore how fast Snapes mind went to Harry, but as the books went on he has his redeeming factors. He's wonderfully complex and one of the more interesting characters to watch.
oooo...I must say I love your Snape pic Gina!
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 8:14 pm (#203 of 2956)
SJ, to answer your question, I did not join the Forum till after OoP was released, so I have not read the rich and varied history of debate on Snape, just the material from the last few months. I have to be honest, though, when I read the first three books, I didn't dwell on Snape as much more than the meanie teacher who has it in for Harry, though I didn't doubt his ultimate loyalty to DD, due to the quidditch match scene in PS/SS. What it was that got me really thinking about him as a complex character was Rickman's portrayal. I saw a multi-dimensional intepretation that I had missed with the first reading. Of course, since then I have read and listened to all the books again and view Snape quite differently.
I don't consider myself one of the enamored ones, but I do think the fellow has a fascinating story to tell us, and figures somehow in JKR's major themes (love, choices, loyalty).
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 10:00 am (#204 of 2956)
Well, if nothing else you folks do have me paying more attention to the character as I've been re-reading the series. I'm not sure if that's good or bad when it comes to this discussion though.
For example, I remember reading here that Snape is considered to have rushed off to the Shrieking Shack to save the kids. I just read that scene last night, and he didn't even knew they were there. Snape to Lupin (PoA American page 358 first page of chapter 19):
"You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?", he said, his eyes glittering. "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did . . . lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
It's stated earlier that the passage he mentioned goes off the map, and the shack isn't on the map at all. Lupin arrived several minutes into the confrontation, within the shack, between the kids and Sirius. So Snape saw Lupin and, having suspected Lupin had been helping Sirius get into the castle, Snape figured Lupin was going in to talk to Sirius... who Snape very much wanted to be the one to recapture
His loyalty to Dumbledore doesn't stop short of him wanting to show that he knows better either (facing page to the above):
"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof..."
{omitted}
"Two more for Azkaban tonight," said Snape, his eyes now gleaming frantically. "I shall be quite interested to see how Dumbledore takes this... He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf --"
To me, this makes it very clear that Snape wasn't rushing off to protect the children, who weren't on the map when he saw it. He was rushing off to get Black and show that he (Snape) was right that Lupin couldn't be trusted.
Understandable motives, but no hint of altruism there.
Peregrine - Dec 8, 2003 10:28 am (#205 of 2956)
Just to illustrate what Gina said?when I first read the books (before OoP) I didn?t really think about Snape one way or another. I didn?t really like him too much for how he treated Harry and Neville and Lupin and Sirius, but I didn?t loathe him. When I started posting here (still before OoP) I read the Snape threads and started to realize there was more to the man than I had first realized and I started to actually like him (even though I usually didn?t like what he did). Then after the undies scene my feelings of ?there?s a whole lot more going on than we realized? were solidified and now Snape?s one of my favorites. My mother on the other hand?I forced her to read the series (as my birthday present last year). She finished just before OoP was released and all she really said about the books was that she hated Snape and she hoped he would die. Even after reading OoP she still couldn?t forgive him for what he?d done. But, if my mom were crazy like us, (crazy in the best way, of course) and she read all this fantastic debating going on, she?d probably realize there?s more to the man than just a petty git.
When I was reading the discussion on the larger amounts of females who tend to like Snape I was reminded of Sherlock Holmes. He was a character who was very cold, calculating, impatient and cynical. He disliked pretty much everyone and had a massive distrust of women and a drug habit. Holmes rarely smiled, rarely laughed and was a very closed-off person?Watson, who lived with him for years, knew very little about Holmes? private and family life. Logically he should be an unlikable character, but in fact Sherlock Holmes is beloved, and a majority of his fans are females.
I guess the unknown is just fascinating to us.
Edited to add: SJ, I?d say you?re right. It does seem that Snape initially went to the Shrieking Shack to snag Lupin and Sirius. ?Rescuing? the kids was just a bonus.
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 11:14 am (#206 of 2956)
The kids kind of blasted him into dreamland before he could rescue them. Not his fault, of course.
Out of curiosity.
Other than Snape doing the counter curse in PS/SS, which I think was nothing more or less than a literary device used by mystery writers to show us we've not only picked the wrong villain but that the villain was really trying to help....
Um, let me try that again.
Other than the counter curse, what are the instances where Snape is clearly doing something good? I don't mean acting nice, just doing something for someone else when he hasn't been told to do it?
What I can think of is:
He alerted the Order in OotP.
He defected from, and is a spy against, Voldemort.
What have I missed? Other than reading motives not stated into otherwise vile behavior, since one person's "tough love" is another person's "he just likes being nasty".
What are his redeeming qualities, the ones I'm obviously not seeing?
Weeny Owl - Dec 8, 2003 11:21 am (#207 of 2956)
I don't think Snape could ever be considered altruistic, but at the same time he tends to do what needs to be done in a way that works. He has a lousy "bedside manner," but he gets the job done.
When Quirrell was trying to kill Harry at the Quidditch match, Snape saved him.
He was with Dumbledore and McGonagall when all three saved Harry from Moody/Barty Crouch, Jr.
Even though he dislikes Lupin, he still made the Wolfsbane Potion for him.
He gave fake Veritaserum to Umbridge, and when she had the group cornered in her office, he not only didn't give her actual Veritaserum, he also saved Neville from being strangled to death.
If Harry were someone else, someone whose parents didn't have a history with Snape, his methods might be less harsh.
Snape is not a pleasant person, he is not the type to give sugar mice to someone the way Professor Flitwick did, he is often petty, and he does let his hatreds and jealousies dictate his actions at certain times.
He does not need to be pleasant, though, to want Voldie defeated. He can see to it that the students are prepared without being sweet and loving and giving them sugar mice. He can still save someone he detests and overcome his pettiness, hatred, and jealousies most of the time, even if he resents having to.
He is flawed, most definitely. He could not completely overcome his hatred after the Pensieve incident. He cannot resist taunting Sirius and feeling superior because Sirius was stuck at 12 Grimmauld Place.
As for redeeming qualities, he may not have any to speak of except realizing that Voldie must be eliminated in order to save the Wizarding World.
JKR has written a complicated character and one whose ways are anathema to most of us, but doing what is right and good and beneficial to Wizard-kind doesn't have to be done by someone we like.
Gina R Snape - Dec 8, 2003 12:44 pm (#208 of 2956)
SJ Rand, there is a list somewhere on this or the EZBoard temporary forum (or both). Unfortunately, I haven't got the time right now to re-research it. But I was able to find evidence of incidences in each and every book when this argument came up before.
I do have a response to the Shrieking Shack scene, but it's going to have to wait.
In the meantime, I encourage, ne, implore Weeny, Barb, fidelio, Sly Girl, or anyone else who has followed these arguments to list what they remember in my absence. I deeply apologise, for I truly love trumpeting the list of our Potion Master's unrecognised efforts. But I'm in the midst of grading final exams and creating a new syllabus, etc. Which, by the way, is also my way of saying that crunch time is upon me and I may seem to be more absent from the board than usual, temporarily of course. This is one of the few threads I consistently hover over, well, like the Master waiting to strike.
And, to borrow a quote from Sirius--the world isn't split into good people and death eaters. Snape is not nice but I do believe he is good. And he is a former death eater. If that alone does not make him one of JKR's most fascinating and complex characters, then I don't know who is.
SarcasticGinny - Dec 8, 2003 12:53 pm (#209 of 2956)
Hey Weeny, you forgot him rolling up his sleeve to show the death eater mark to Fudge in GOF to try to convince him that Voldemort was back. I was sick of Snape after his misbehavior in POA, but that moment made me feel some humanity coming from the guy, and since then, I've tried to keep an open mind. Imagine how much guts that had to take for him to pull his sleeve up and expose his past in front of everyone, just in hopes that Fudge might finally believe. To pull a Phineus here, I disagree with Snape on many counts, but he DOES have a style in some regards, and I respect the man...for now.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 8, 2003 2:27 pm (#210 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 8, 2003 2:28 pm
When he knew what revulsion that would rouse in everyone... I think that act took some guts.
Did Fudge even understand the significance of this gesture? He merely says something like, "I don't know what your staff are playing at..."
I do agree that PoA shows Snape at his very worst. We are shown that he is deeply prejudiced against werewolves (does he dislike Lupin because of his condition, or dislike him as a person? Or, as Harry put it, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" Or all of these?... It's quite a list of motives). We are shown his utter moral blindness: he'd rather "get back" at Sirius than have justice served (i.e. by not sending an innocent man back to Azkaban). And his paranoia/ fury when he realises that he has been foiled, and Sirius has escaped... We know that he's right in saying that 'Potter' (I do wish he would use his name for once), had a hand in it somewhere, but he doesn't come out of the scenario looking good. No wonder Fudge describes him as "unstable".
I myself wonder at how close his relationship with Crouch Junior was. The use of the name "Barty" suggests some sort of bond, since Snape very seldom uses people's names, and definitely not nicknames/shortenings. Are the Death Eaters really a sort of family, with a common regard for one another, or were he and Crouch particular friends? (And how old is Crouch Jr anyway?)
Redemptive touches are added after then (although it was cruel of him to say he saw no difference as regards Hermione's teeth). I'm a fan of Snape insofar as he is a complex and compellingly written character, but I doubt I'll be able to like him as a "person".
Sly Girl - Dec 8, 2003 3:18 pm (#211 of 2956)
Does anyone else think it odd that for almost the entire first part of the year, Harry was studying the Draught of Peace in Potions and it was probably the very thing that would have helped him cope with everything? I find it interesting that not only by having Snape be the character that is attempting to teach Harry a way of dealing with Voldemort's ever growing prescence in his head, JKR also chose to have Snape be the Professor that was teaching something that would calm your nerves. It just struck me as interesting that Snape would be the bearer of both methods and yet (still) Harry didn't learn from either.
SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 3:21 pm (#212 of 2956)
Psychedelic Enchantress: >> I'm a fan of Snape insofar as he is a complex and compellingly written character, but I doubt I'll be able to like him as a "person".
Now that's a statement I have absolutely no trouble agreeing with.
For my own part, I'll reiterate that since it doesn't seem that she's going push him onto the back burner, I'd like to see Rowling light a fire under this character and show some more aspects of him. There isn't much good having a "complex" character who just keeps doing essentially the same things over and over.
We've seen more depth of action and emotion in Fudge, and he's supposed to be a minor character. I think.
Neville Longbottom - Dec 8, 2003 9:13 pm (#213 of 2956)
About PoA: While I completely loathe Snape in this book, I also want to defend him. I think his behaviour towards Lupin has more to do with who Lupin is (namely one of the Marauders), not what he is (a werewolf). He shows no prejudice towards Hagrid, the half-giant. The only scene, where he shows dislike, because of what somebody is, was in the pensieve scene with Lily. And this was in a deeply ashaming situation for him.
Also, while Snape threatens to send Sirius directly to the Dementors, without going with him to the castle or Dumbledore's office first, he doesn't do it. After the Dementor attack, Snape was the first who became counscious again, he could have done, whatever he wanted, with Sirius. But he didn't. He chose the official way. His behaviour in this scene was still horrible, but it's not that he took "justice" in his own hands.
I also want to add, that his mean behaviour in Occlumency is only for Harry's best. I like Snape as a character, but I think he is a horrible teacher and he would be my worst nightmare as a teacher. But in Occlumency, it's all about Harry closing his mind. And if he isn't able to resist Snape mean remarks, he will in no way be able to close his mind in front of Voldemort, the murderer of his parents.
I also want to add, that JKR could have made Quirrell the villain in PS, without Snape saving Harry's life.
popkin - Dec 9, 2003 1:58 am (#214 of 2956)
Edited by Dec 9, 2003 2:07 am
Sly Girl, your comments about the Draught of Peace are interesting. They remind me of Snape telling Harry that he has no subtlety. And, he's right. Harry tends to be very slow on the uptake - especially if he is blocked by his negative feelings for someone (Snape).
Despite the fact that Snape has repeatedly proved himself to be trustworhy, and has tried very hard (at least in his own estimation) to help Harry, Harry has resisted all of Snape's efforts. Harry is not an unusual person when he rejects Snape's help - most people would reject the help of a person who clearly hates them. However, if Harry were able to look at Snape objectively (not likely in the near future), and accept the subtle (and not so subtle - ie. "don't break the rules", "practice occlumency every night before you fall asleep", "don't wear your heart on your sleeve") clues that Snape is dropping, he would be better armed for future encounters with LV.
Of course, I didn't notice that Snape was dropping any hints about the Draught of Peace either. Just like Harry, no matter what Snape does, I don't trust him.
Romana - Dec 9, 2003 3:57 am (#215 of 2956)
Snape has constantly shown that he has a flair for the drama, (his entrance to the class room in the first book, standing behind Harry and Ron in COS 'or maybe he is standing right behind you wondering why you two weren't on the train (oh why did the cut that line? It would have been so funny in the film... I think I've just answered my own question...)and so on) Not to mention his sacastic sense of humour, that scene in Umbridge's office had me in fits! Basically, I think he's acting. Remember we only have Harry's view on Snape, and how Hary sees Snape. Harry hates Snape, so naturally all Hary is going to see is the worst of Snape and naturally not pay any attention at all when (if) Snape proves himself innocent.
I leave this forum for a few days and suddenly I have over 100 posts to read..
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 10:13 am (#216 of 2956)
I think it would be nice to see how Snape interacts with the other professors (aside from the occasional dig at McGonagall). It must be strange for him to be a peer to many people who were once his teachers?who knew him when he was a greasy little oddball.
Along the same lines, in the beginning of OoP, when Harry first gets to #12, they enter the house and everyone is excited because someone has just arrived. I don?t remember if it said who, but I always assumed they were talking about Snape because he was there to give his report (although I guess it could have been Dumbledore?could someone with the book check?). Anyway, it looks like Snape is very respected within the order, a respect he may not have gotten the first time around if no one knew he was a spy. This sort of interaction with other people (besides bratty students) might help in humanizing Snape more. He?ll get the respect he deserves for risking his life and maybe he?ll be a tiny bit happier.
Just speculation and hope on my part.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 10:39 am (#217 of 2956)
I don't remember people being excited. But I do remember a flurry of activity around him as he left. That's when Harry looked down and saw his black hair and big nose sticking out.
The question is, were they excited to be hearing the news from Snape, or just excited to hear the news?
On another note, I was thinking about CoS last night on my way home. As I've said, I don't have time to go through the books right now. But I thought of one thing--debatable as it might be. In the dueling club scene, Snape volunteers to be Lockhart's 'assistant.' Now, I think we might all agree that any of the staff would be loathe to call themselves an assistant to Lockhart. I think he volunteered for this little duty to keep an eye on things and ensure the children's safety. It was clear, within a matter of seconds, that Lockhart was more about preening and less about preparing the children for duels. Snape steps in and not only rearranges who partners with whom, but does the finite incantatum when things get out of hand. Surely, he did not volunteer for such a task because of his love of Lockhart and wanting to nurture the kids in extra-curricular activities.
On a side note, it has been hotly debated whether Snape instructed Malfoy to use 'serpensortia' on Harry. Yes, the snake could represent Slytherin. But Snape did not seem surprised that Malfoy conjured one, and was lazily ready to get rid of it. The bigger controversy in that is whether or not Snape wanted to see if Harry was a parselmouth. I say that because the portraits overhead that Harry is hearing voices when the basilisk was released by Tom Riddle via Ginny. He may have put two and two together in that way Snape has of putting two and two together, and this was the perfect opportunity. Snape had a calculating expression on his face in that scene. It made Harry uncomfortable. Calculating is not the expression of a man who is surprised in my opinion.
I'm slowly rereading PoA at night, about a half a chapter at a time before falling asleep. I will eventually get back to the Shrieking Shack scene and respond to SJ. But I concur with what Neville has said. And, you know, I never thought about the idea that JKR didn't "have" to set up Snape as a red herring to make Quirrell the bad guy. I actually would argue she did have to set him up as a red herring, because it set the tone for the kids to continue distrusting him throughout the series. And I'm sure that will ultimately serve a purpose other than to torture and entertain us.
So, I finished the scene last night where Snape accuses Harry of obtaining the Marauders Map 'directly from the manufacturer' and that line, no, that whole scene of undercurrent between Snape, the map, and Lupin gets funnier and funnier every time I read it. I was also struck by how Snape describes James strutting around with his friends and admirers. And of course, this time I was immediately transported to the Pensieve scene where the Marauders ganged up and hung him upside-down. Ah, JKR is a genius. I'm sure she wrote it exactly that way so that memory would come to mind upon a reread.
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 10:54 am (#218 of 2956)
I think you?re probably right about Snape and Lockhart, Gina?either that or Dumbledore asked him to keep an eye on things. However you look at it, Snape agreed to be a lowly assistant?unless of course he had some ulterior motive (i.e. setting things up so a snake could attack Harry?after all, Flitwick was a champion, why not have him assist?). But if that were the case I think we may have heard more about it since CoS. Sheesh, now I?m contradicting myself. I need a Pensieve so I can sort out all my thoughts on Snape before I post. Or, if I can?t have that, how about book 6, shortly followed by book 7, one of which should have the answer.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 11:03 am (#219 of 2956)
Or, "JKR--the Official Guide and Final Answer to all those millions of theories and questions everyone has..."
and an interview in which she tells us "I can't tell you that...it might be important to book 8, which may or may not ever get written"
Followed by the series I've been praying for for ages now... "The Snape Chronicles"
Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 1:41 pm (#220 of 2956)
And then hopefully that will be followed up with Marauding Memoirs: The True Life Exploits of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. (Chapter 7 ? What really happened between Sirius and Snape)
Wishful thinking. *sigh*
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:19 pm (#221 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Dec 9, 2003 9:02 pm
If it wouldn't be plagiarism and so on, I would have a dab at writing that myself... I adore the Marauders, despite the nastier side shown in 'Snape's Worst Memory'.
Edit: I edited a line out of here since it did not conform to the Philosophy of the Forum. If you have a question, as always, feel free to contact me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
SJ Rand - Dec 9, 2003 2:20 pm (#222 of 2956)
Snape "assisted" Lockhart, an obvious blowhard, for a chance to take him down in front of the students. Most of the other teachers would probably have enjoyed doing it, but they don't belittle each other in front of the students. Snape doesn't have this compunction. When opportunity presented itself, he took it and wasted little time in laying Lockhart out, showing everyone who the "assistant" was. Actually that was one of the few times I enjoyed Snape's sadism. A lot.
He rearranged partners to get his house into position to take out Gryffindor students, Draco verses Harry in particular. Draco comes from an old wizarding family well versed in the dark arts. Harry was muggle raised. Obviously Draco was going to win. He didn't, so...
the snake was meant to strike terror into Harry and leave him standing there looking like a fool. Snape didn't expect what happened, but he isn't one who'll allow surprise to keep him from calculating how new information might be used to his advantage. Why a Snake? As said, it's the Slytherin symbol. What better way to make Harry a fool and show which house is superior and doesn't suffer fools gladly, both at the same time?
Keeping one character as the obvious evil one shows economy of writing on Rowling's part. She doesn't have to create an new evil diversion every time, just the primary evil. Unfortunately, she also over plays Snape's teaching "style", something we know about and could easily presume with only the smallest hint. That's part of why I said she needs to do something different with him.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:28 pm (#223 of 2956)
I've always seen it as such a waste. He's obviously very talented- whether as a Leglimens/Occlumens, Potions master, or wannabe Dark Artist (cringe! What an awful thought! It makes you think of some dodgy Baroque type painting!)... and, if he hadn't been driven by the spike of meanness and hatred, would probably be a gifted teacher.
As it is, he doesn't have the slightest grain of compassion, or social skills. While he may be a 'good man', he shall never get anyone to appreciate his finer qualities by behaving like a brat in the Latency period.
Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 2:36 pm (#224 of 2956)
SJ Rand wrote: "Actually that was one of the few times I enjoyed Snape's sadism. A lot. "
Well, at least you enjoyed it in that scene. There is hope for you yet.
Snape wanted to set up Gryffindor against Slytherin, for sure. But there was no way for him to know the side he wanted to win would win. Rather, it is a real life opportunity for potential adult rivals to start getting on with it early. As much as I am loathe to admit, the majority of Slytherins do seem to be death eaters in breeding and in training. More can be accomplished by pitting them against others than against themselves, or for that matter for any students who habitually hang out to play amongst themselves. This is an example of Snape being a good teacher, in my opinion. Splitting up the "dream team" as he puts it, means splitting up other cliques as well. Any teacher knows you have to do that often to accomplish learning goals.
Showing Lockhart who was the real assistant was delicious icing on the cake.
I, for one, love this stuff and will never get bored of it. I seek out fanfiction where the writers know how to "write Snape" and not turn him into a fluffy ball of niceness (and write some of it too). His turns of phrase and new means of torturing the students are extremely entertaining. But again, it's amusing for him, but works to teach the students as well.
Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 9, 2003 2:39 pm (#225 of 2956)
It was good to see Lockhart exposed as a useless pillock (not that we hadn't guessed that already). I like the way it was conveyed in the film: when Lockhart falls flat on his back, everyone bursts into laughter, even Harry. Hermione is the only one to show concern for the scuppered ninny
("Is he all right?" "Who cares!")
Priceless.
Devika - Dec 11, 2003 2:01 am (#226 of 2956)
JKR,I feel has shown great talent in portraying Snape's character, especially considering that it is all from Harry's perspective. Harry has never had any feelings but hatred for Snape, yet as readers, a whole different message comes across in which Snape is this highly complex character.
My understanding is that the roots of Snape's behaviour can be traced to his childhood, where he was a part of an abusive household, and a student who apparently didn't enjoy much popularity (okay I know this is prejudiced, but which Slytherin has been genuinely popular - and in any case he was the victim of the marauders' taunts and hatred). I believe that a large part of his personality is an aura that he has cultivated in a sort of defence mechanism around him since he never seems to have had many genuine friends.As Romana mentioned, he shows a certain flair for drama - this is a common attention-seeking act.Attention-seeking may be too strong a term, but the idea is that this dramatic personality is very noticeable. This coupled with his hatred for James makes him a particularly 'hateable' character.
Dumbledore, it appears has a shrewd understanding of his character and has used his intelligence and passionate nature to the Order's advantage. At the same time, by denying him the DADA post, as JKR has said in an interview, he has tried to avoid bringing out the worst in Snape.
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 9:41 am (#227 of 2956)
Snape doesn't need a defense mechanism in dealing with these students, he's not exactly teaching inner city tough guys from a Hollywood Death In The Classroom movie, and we've never seen the real teachers displayed as anything less than publically supportive of each other. McGonagall's reactions to Trelawney being an understandable exception. By "real" I mean those that aren't transient DADA teachers. They're a whole other story.
Personally I don't care how he feels about James. He could burn an effigy of the man every night before bed. My umbrage is from his behavior towards the living, Harry and Neville in particular, though no one outside of Slytherin seems immune.
We do see things from Harry's perspective, but even within that perspective the spoken dialog stands exactly as written. So do the displayed actions. Parts about Snape's facial expressions, and any interpretations of motive, could be colored by Harry's feelings, but what Snape says and is seen to do are what Snape says and does.
I especially like this paraphrased quote: At the same time, by denying him the DADA post, as JKR has said in an interview, he has tried to avoid bringing out the worst in Snape.
Good move. If he got much worse, he might end up on sabbatical in Azkaban.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 11:19 am (#228 of 2956)
SJ Rand wrote: "Good move. If he got much worse, he might end up on sabbatical in Azkaban."
LOL. So, what would that be called then? Snark takes a holiday?
I wonder if Severus has had enough joy in his life for the Dementors to take away...
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 11:42 am (#229 of 2956)
The joy of tormenting Harry and Neville. Exposing Lupin, twice in the same year. Working Lockhart over in that dueling club. Being right, over Dumbledore's opinion, about Lupin being the one helping Black and being dangerous. Winning the House Cup seven years running. Taking house points away for one student helping another get an assignment right, and for "being an insufferable know it all". Taunting Sirius while he was essentially imprisoned in the Black house. Draco saying that Snape should be the new headmaster after the governors ousted Dumbledore.
Nor does he seem all broken up inside over Sirius getting killed. At least not so much as have enough sympathy over Harry's loss to keep him from adding to Harry's misery in the confrontation with Draco.
As the old song goes, "We'll have these moments to remember".
Neville Longbottom - Dec 11, 2003 12:34 pm (#230 of 2956)
While I don't think this exuses everything Snape has done, especially his behaviour towards Neville and Harry or the comment about Hermione's teeth, Snape has to be mean towards the Gryffindors to some extent. If he behaves to nice, Malfoy and company would probably start to suspect him. Especially the last scene in OotP seemed to me a lot like that he just tried to keep his cover in front of Draco.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 2:31 pm (#231 of 2956)
Oooh, SJ. You have a good point. Those are happy memories for Snape! They put a smile on my face on his behalf! He'd especially appreciate the part about righting DD about Lupin and knowing Sirius is dead.
I still think they are small highlights in an otherwise unhappy life, though.
SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 4:04 pm (#232 of 2956)
Neville,
If he wants to keep his cover in Voldemort's eyes, he should be less taunting. As I maintained earlier, from Voldemort's perspective he's just being too obvious. In fact if I were Voldemort, I'd suspect him of doing exactly what posters here think he's doing: Putting on a show. Voldemort is not a fool.
Gina R Snape,
I just added this thread because this will go off topic to Snape, but look at all of the characters in this series who haven't exactly had wonderful lives. I've been wondering recently if it's at all accidental, or if Rowling is purposely contrasting the effects of loss, abandonment, and varying levels of suffering or abuse in shaping the current attitudes and behavior of several key characters.
Of the characters whose lives we know anything about, only Hermione, Seamus, and Cedric seem to have had a good home life, and I'm not really sure about Seamus or Cedric.
Sharker11 - Dec 11, 2003 6:57 pm (#233 of 2956)
Hey I'm just wondering what people think of the following: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Its a wonderful essay. First question I have is where did Snape save Harry's life, I thought he tried to, but Granger did. Second, while it might not be 'psychotic,' he and a rather large number of people, 'Peter,' have a rather unhealthy obsession with James and Harry.
Thirdly having the kid learn Occlumency, without telling him why and in that environment, was about as intelligent as thinking their is such a thing as safety through ignorance.
Last, I think Albus has a few more things to worry about then having Harry and Snape on talking terms.
Gina R Snape - Dec 11, 2003 7:16 pm (#234 of 2956)
I don't think we should let the fact that Hermione accidentally distracted Quirrell detract from the fact that Snape was trying to save Harry's life. Not only did he "mutter his little counter-curse" at the game, he volunteered to referee the next game to ensure his safety.
I agree that keeping Harry in the dark was sheer stupidity, among other things, on Dumbledore's part. But it's part of what makes those particular scenes so fascinating to read, in my opinion. You can practically see the wheels turning as Snape tries to keep calm and think about how to address Harry, answer his questions and obtain information all at the same time whilst remaining under Dumbledore's orders not to divulge anything to Harry. It's like there are 3 layers of text in those chapters and JKR handles it very very well.
And, I hope this hard lesson on Dumbledore's part will lead to a new era of openness in the next two books. Maybe it will mean Harry is clued in on more of what the Order is up to and, consequently, what kinds of things Snape is doing.
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 11, 2003 9:31 pm (#235 of 2956)
The joy of tormenting Harry and Neville...
Does this really bring joy to Snape? The poor creature is so miserable and tortured himself, I really can't see those moments as being joyful or bringing joy to him. The misery of others may momentary easy some past hurt or pain, but is that truely joyful?
Neville Longbottom - Dec 12, 2003 1:10 am (#236 of 2956)
@ SJ Rand:
Voldemort is not a fool, but Draco Malfoy is. And I can very well see Draco trusting Snape and Snape learning some important informations, because of this. Umbridge told Snape, that "Lucius Malfoy speaks most highly of [him]".
SJ Rand - Dec 12, 2003 3:06 pm (#237 of 2956)
Neville,
Draco isn't the only person seeing Snape's consistently over the top behavior, and isn't the only student at Hogwarts who has parents that were, or are, Death Eaters.
"The night has a thousand eyes" and "the walls have ears". Moody was perhaps too paranoid, but is Snape paranoid enough (if it's all supposed to be an act)?
Blast - Dec 13, 2003 12:46 pm (#238 of 2956)
The only time that I think that Snape is truely joyed is when he sees Proffesor McGonnegal return from St. Mungo's. Yes there are other times such as when after the capture of Sirius, but I think that was more of a look what I did thing more than happiness. Snape is like the people behind other great people. I am sure that some of the great generals from the past would not of been so great if not for their staffs. They are only remembered in history because of either ego or publicity have made them who they became. We see Snape as being disappointed a few times. He wants to show the Wizarding World that he is a great Wizard, but he is constantly being left out or overshadowed in the glory. Maybe when things are all settled Snape will recieve his due recognition and then he can settle down with a beautiful intelligent wife, write his memoirs and be the happy person we all know is inside him.
SJ Rand - Dec 13, 2003 1:07 pm (#239 of 2956)
The only way Snape has a happy person inside him is if he ate Santa Claus.
Ihavebothbuttocks - Dec 13, 2003 3:00 pm (#240 of 2956)
SJ, that's priceless!
boop - Dec 13, 2003 4:43 pm (#241 of 2956)
SJ- that made me laugh, thanks
Here is maybe a wide idea. Could Snape be a metamorphmagus like Tonks? Could be a way of spying for the order. JKR makes a connection with Snape when Tonks is entertains Hermione and Ginny at the dinner table. Tonks makes her nose beak like protuberance like Snaps. Chapter 5, pg. 85.
ElfWorks - Dec 14, 2003 8:24 pm (#242 of 2956)
well, I posted this before, but apparently, my expressing love of AR got this thought moved to the cast thread, but my point was that my theory isnt influenced by my love of AR..... anyway, i believe that snape became a DE as a double agent acting for the good guys. this explains so many things and his expertise at occlumency and legilmens would make him a good secret agent and explain why dumbledore supports him so wholeheartedly!
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 15, 2003 7:28 am (#243 of 2956)
Over on the thread SJ Rand created about characters' pasts, Rand himself posited that Snape is not a major character. While this came as something of a surprise to me that anyone would not consider Snape a major character, he certainly has the right to his opinion. And it does raise some interesting questions.
So, I thought I'd open it up here, since it's more the appropriate thread. Do people think Snape is a major character who is "back-story" driven? Or do people think he's just a generic baddie for whom we've learned some extra bits of information?
Naturally, I think Snape is a major character. Not just because I love him so. But he has been a driving force behind the kids in so many ways. They constantly debate his allegiance and intentions. Yet the way I see it, in every book he does something to help the kids in a fundamental way. He is nasty to their faces, but he is also a spy for the Order. He is, to me, the epitome of someone who is good without being nice. And I predict he will play a major part in books 6 and 7.
What does everyone else think?
Oh, and I've been meaning to post this for days. But one of Severus' major contribution in book 2 was to teach Harry Expelliarmus, which served to save Harry's life in GoF.
ElfWorks - Dec 15, 2003 8:38 am (#244 of 2956)
Well, I must say, I fail to see how anyone could in any way not consider Snape to be a major character. I will go read SJ Rand's post, but if what you say is true...... well, it makes no sense. Professor Severus Snape, Potions Master is most definitely, in my opinion, a major character. He figures prominantly in story lines in all of the books to date. He clearly has a major role in the Order (please see my previous post just above). I cast my vote with Ms. snape; He IS a major character!
xo
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 9:45 am (#245 of 2956)
Oh, I think he's become a major character, I just don't think he began that way.
Some characters "write themselves" and end up doing things the author never intended. Other times the writer wants to do something and has to decide whether a known character can do it for them or if they have to introduce a new one.
I'd be willing to bet that Rowling was as surprised as the rest of us when she found out that Snape was a defected DE now spying for the order. Just as the useless rat became a device to get Pettigrew into the story as an animagus, something I'm sure it was not when she wrote the first two books.
Before book five, Snape was Hagrid in a Grinch suit. He did things that ran alongside the main story, but he didn't move the main story. Even in PoA, everything that happened could still have played out exactly the same without Snape being there.
That's the test of a whether a character is major or minor: Does he consistently effect, or contribute to, the main plot. If not, then he's a minor character used for convenience or color. Even Hagrid is mostly a minor character. Rowling didn't need him to break down the door where the Dursley's were hiding Harry, any other teacher could have apperated into that shack.
Disarming was not something Snape intentionally taught the kids. Snape used it on Lockhart to show him up, then Lockhart covered his humiliation by deciding that was what the kids should learn. It wasn't Snape's desire to teach it to them, it grew out of side motivated actions. Harry uses it far more than the Patronus spell, but it was Lupin's intention that Harry learn that one, as it was Crouch/Moody's intention to teach resisting an Imperious spell.
>I predict he will play a major part in books 6 and 7.
I don't doubt that. Rowling put enough effort into his existence in book five to make that a very good possibility.
What I don't see is what "contributions" he's made to the kids other than books one and five.
The kids learning Expelliarmus was a side effect, as I've said. And had they not learned it then, they would have learned it in PoA (Black used it on them), still in time to save Harry's life in GoF. All Snape did in book three was give Rowling an excuse to have Lupin resign, which could have been done in a hundred other ways, and in book four his contribution to the story was allowing Hermione to have her "overlarge" teeth shrunk.
At least that's all I can remember as far as direct action goes.
Weeny Owl - Dec 15, 2003 10:42 am (#246 of 2956)
I might agree with you, SJ, except JKR has had the basic storyline of these books for quite some time.
If I wanted to search for interviews, I could give you quotes. Not just about Snape, but also about her writing process.
I think she intended him to be necessary throughout all the books because he is not only featured significantly in the first book, but he also has his own chapter title in that book. No other character does.
In CoS, the first person they run into at Hogwarts is Snape, and whether or not he accidentally or intentionally taught Harry "Expelliarmus" is something only JKR knows for sure.
In PoA, again, he has his own chapter title plus he is featured significantly.
In GoF, we learn some interesting things about Karkaroff, Sirius gives us information about Snape and the Death Eaters, and near the end, Snape is one of the Hogwarts staff who saves Harry from Crouch, Jr. - one of only three. We also know Dumbledore sent him on a mission of some kind which seemed dangerous.
In the fifth book, he again has his own chapter title, but we learn even more about him such as the fact that he's in the Order, he saves Harry with the fake Verituserum, he has a history with Harry's mother that we've never seen before, we learn all about Occlumency and Legilimency, he saves Neville from being strangled, and he helps to save all six kids by alerting the Order.
Sirius was introduced in the first book yet we didn't see him again until the third. Expelliarmus was introduced in the second book but Harry didn't really need it again until the third and later in the fourth. There are other instances of things, people, or places introduced early that are important later. Snape is a constant.
Snape's significance to the series is something we're not told in one fell swoop, but in bits and pieces. With a character as mysterious as this one, I doubt JKR intended him to be minor.
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 12:21 pm (#247 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>I might agree with you, SJ, except JKR has had the basic storyline of these books for quite some time.
Yes, the basic storyline. But I doubt she knew what every PS/SS character, and item, would be doing by book three, let alone by book five. Characters grow, things get changed, even the most detailed outlines get altered for new ideas.
>Snape is one of the Hogwarts staff who saves Harry from Crouch, Jr..
I'm not "picking on" you here, but this is the fifth or sixth time I've seen that mentioned. Does anyone think that Dumbledore needed either Snape or McGonagall to defeat Crouch Jr.? Snape was in the scene so Dumbledore could send him out for Veritaserum.
>In the fifth book, he again has his own chapter title,
In the fifth book he became a major character. He moved the main plot by tying in with Harry's dreams and getting the Order members to the Ministry. I don't doubt that Rowling at least had the idea during book three that he might come into his own, but in book three, for all his back story, he was still just a comic book villan. YOU DON'T KNOW POTTER! HE DID IT! I KNOW HE DID IT!
>Sirius was introduced in the first book yet we didn't see him again until the third. Expelliarmus was introduced in the second book but Harry didn't really need it again until the third and later in the fourth.
This is where folks can begin thinking the writer is omniscient. Writers do plan many things in advance, but they also re-use existing things that they had no idea were going to be key when first written. Neither way is more effective than the other, nor makes a writer better or worse at her craft.
Remember, the wands did not want to fight each other. Casting the disarming spell isn't what caused the wands to lock. Casting any spell would have done it. The key point wasn't which spells were cast, but that both the wands were casting at each other at the same time. If Harry had used the stun spell he learned through Hermione it would have had the same result.
septentrion - Dec 15, 2003 12:40 pm (#248 of 2956)
Well, it's difficult to add an idea which would not have been expressed. I'm the opinion that Snape is a major character, but it's as if his importance has been hidden, discreet. But he is necessary to the plot so JKR arranged it so that we never lose sight of him until he is revealed as a major character. Yet, even before OotP I have considered him as a major character because he is important in the trio's everyday life, as well as McGonagall : he's one of their most described teachers. They have several teachers, and not all of them are described or spoken of as much as Snape is, though he's neither their house's head nor their friend. Even Trelawney, which could be considered like a major character (her predictions have made her unavoidable), seems less important than Snape.
Weeny Owl - Dec 15, 2003 12:45 pm (#249 of 2956)
SJ - "Snape was in the scene so Dumbledore could send him out for Veritaserum."
The same could be said for quite a few characters and the reasons for them being where they are and doing what they do. McGonagall's reason for being there was to bring Sirius to Dumbledore's office, yet that doesn't make her character a minor one.
JKR could have used different characters for major scenes, but she didn't. That seems rather telling to me.
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 2:45 pm (#250 of 2956)
It seems that we're all coming from different directions as to what "major" means. I posted my definition of "major" earlier. I might be tempted to call some characters "major" because I like them, but I won't. McGonagall is not "major", although she had a major role in book one; getting Harry onto the Quidditch team. Nor is Lupin, except for book three.
There's another thought. "Major" to the entire series, and "major" to a book in the series. Snape was "major" in OotP. Crouch was "major" to GoF. Lupin had his book, as did Umbridge. Dumbledore had, I think, two books, otherwise he's a substitute narrator.
At this point, (I think) the only characters I'd classify as "major" throughout the entire series are Harry, Hermione, and Ron. The rest are support characters, there to fill a specific purpose. Some do it on a recurring basis, others have just one or two books. Some recurring characters serve as major characters for a book or two, then become part of the chorus again.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 15, 2003 2:46 pm (#251 of 2956)
I think it's extremely significant that Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape were the only 3 to appear in the foe glass in GoF. To say Dumbledore didn't need them except to run errands is, in my mind, like saying all the staff are interchangeable when it comes to tasks. But the foe glass scene set up a literal image of a triumverate. Dumbledore relies on those two more than anyone else in the school for things we/Harry are not fully privy to.
JKR has specifically stated she puts things in books to give hints for future books. It's why book 5 was so long. "So no one will say 'why didn't you give us a clue beforehand'..." While I agree that during the writing process ideas emerge--that is half the fun of writing--for a seven book series to weave together successfully all the complicated relationships, magical abilities and an overall cohesive world, JKR did a considerable amount of work. She has outlines and charts for every book. Characters, skills, backgrounds, etc. She's shown some of them in past interviews.
It's part of what makes this forum so much fun. She gives us a wide berth to pinpoint and pontificate what's a deliberate clue, what's a red herring, what's a mere coincidence. And time and time again very little is left as a coincidence. I think it's a part of what makes her such a great writer, or at least what makes her so much fun to read.
The thing about Snape intentionally teaching the kids things is that he does everything in a sneaky underhanded way. He does not directly pound into the kids "learn this, it will be useful the next time you meet a dementor." He gives them enough rope to pull themselves up or hang themselves.
Even if one disagrees with the concept of him using "tough love" or accomplishment through adversity, we can see his sneaky teaching methods in the way he gave the kids the werewolf essay, or when he teaches them Expelliarmus. Because any spell would have embarrassed Lockhart--heck I could probably embarrass Lockhart. But after Snape disarmend him, Lockhart was quick enough on the uptake to realise that the kids should be learning to disarm each other as a result of that little demonstration and not casting spells to one another recklessly.
It's strange, because Snape is so flamboyant in many ways. You would think he would be direct about why they must learn things. But he's not. He puts it out there and they pick it up or they don't. In a way, he gives the kids a lot of credit--just not being nice about it. When he assigned the werewolf essay, it was with the hopes that some of the kids would figure it out. I think he just didn't count on Hermione not telling anyone what she'd figured out--seeing as she's such an insufferable know-it-all who likes to show off...
So, the same way Snape slithers around the edges, or lurks beneath the surface in his teaching, so is his character written. He's always there. He's frequently on the kids' minds. He's always up to something behind the scenes. He always knows more or figures out something (except during the Shrieking Shack scene), and when he does stick out his neck he never gets any credit. I love him precisely because he's so easy to dislike, so easy to dismiss as embittered and peripheral and ugly and unpleasant. But I see him as funny and heroic and staunch and above all else intelligent and moral. And I like big noses.
Edit: SJ Rand posted while I was still composing this one. But, I do see characters in terms of the whole series and not individual books. I see it that way because the seven books will have in effect told one story--the story of Harry Potter. She writes with deliberate continuity. And I would say after book 1, you cannot read the books individually without reading the ones before it. No book will make sense without reading the others except for book 1 in my opinion. (with the obvious personal bias that I think you could carry on without book 2 and not miss much, but that's for another thread!)
ElfWorks - Dec 15, 2003 3:12 pm (#252 of 2956)
It is my opinion that JKR has spent entirely too much time working out every little detail to dismiss anyone as unimportant to anything. One might be tempted to say that MadameRosmerta isnt an important character, but the series isnt over and you never know.... She has already played an important role in being the means to harry hearing some stuff. TECHNICALLY speaking, HRH are truly the MOST IMPORTANT characters, but I agree with gina, the characters should be viewed from the point of the entire series. Some little something that some little "nobody" did in book 1 may come back around and i think it probably will. And to trivialize Snape's part in all this is a big mistake. IMO Snape is a major character as are Dumbledore and Minerva. Triumvirate is exactly the right word! They are the HRH of the older generation!
xo
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 3:17 pm (#253 of 2956)
Gina R Snape,
If you're defining a major character as any character who has, in any single book, made a major contribution to the single story that is the series taken as a whole, then yes, Snape is a major character. So is Dobby... and he has a big nose too.
timrew - Dec 15, 2003 4:03 pm (#254 of 2956)
And big ears! It seems like everyone has got onto a merry-go-round here. So-and so is a major character, I don't agree - he, she it, is not, ad infinitum.
Everyone has their opinion, and no matter what anyone says, it's not going to get changed.
IMHO, this is not making an interesting thread.
Romana - Dec 16, 2003 3:46 am (#255 of 2956)
I think Snape seems a major character from the very first book. The first time I read PS/SS, Snape stuck out like a sore thumb, I just couldn't help but notice him. From the first Snape is portrayed as 'dark and mysterious' and you can't help but ask the questions (throughly discussed on this forum) who is this guy? Why does he act the way he does? He doesn't feature too much in the first two books, and yet we are still curious about him. In my opinon this alone makes Snape a major character, and JK's descriptions causing this effect are probably quite deliberate. I would be surprised if they weren't.
Devika - Dec 16, 2003 5:15 am (#256 of 2956)
There is no doubt that Snape is a very major character. He was given a distinctive introduction in Book 1. Throughout he has been a teacher Harry has been very bothered about - JKR doesn't give us so much detail about anyone else's classes. In Book 3 we came to know a vague bit about his school days and in Book 4 about his being a death-eater turned spy. Book 5 showed us a lot more about his character and inspite of all this he remains a mysterious character for whom we are shooting guesses in the dark. With most other characters we at least know where they are heading, but with Snape, as a reader one has no clue what he might do next and what he did in the past. He must be an important character, otherwise he would have faded into oblivion like other teachers inspite of not being instrumental in the main plot of most books. We have got such a complex picture of this man, that we just can't afford to ignore him. If a person is characterized that way then he has to be important.
Joanna S Lupin - Dec 17, 2003 12:13 pm (#257 of 2956)
I do agree with you Devika - Snape just can't be put in the same line with other teachers, he seems to be even more important for storyline than Dumbleddore himself. We see the story from the kids' point of view so it's obvious that Snape can't appear as often as they do, but all the same HE IS the most important person among adults in this story.
HP Fan - Dec 19, 2003 7:12 am (#258 of 2956)
I think Devika and Joanna S Lupin are right Snape is an important character amongst the adults however I don't think he's more important than DD partly because DD is one of the main sources of knowledge for Harry and by extension the reader, and also because of the constant theme in the books about DD being the most powerful wizard of the age. We get nothing said about Snape's magical prowess. Snape is a many layered complex character who on the surface appears an evil sadistic and that's your lot folks type of person. However as I think I may have said before still waters run deep and each book is bringing us just a little bit more of information about Snape. Which draws the reader or at least draws me into wanting to know more about him. And yes it's lead to threads like this discussing every little detail based on reading and re-reading the books and finding a wealth of clues or hints or little tit bits of information which may or may not be the result of reading too much into something. But that's what makes this forum fun. I don't mean to put anyone's back up with the next bit I'm going to say and I'm not going to mention names but having been away for a week and not having been able to browse for a couple of days before hand you can imagine I have had a lot of posts to read through and I feel some people are being way to aggressive towards those who disagree with them or criticise their posts. It's putting me off posting any opinions or commenting. Come on lets get some of the Harry Potter Magic and combine it with Christmas Spirit - trust me it's a potent combination and it will make everything more pleasant and enjoyable again for everyone.
OK rant over back to Snape.
I've been listening to my set of audio tapes for of the first three books and in the scene at the Shrieking Shack at the end of PoA I think there's evidence that Sirius' and possibly some of the other Maurader's must have played other tricks just as cruel as sending him into the Whomping Willow. Do you think it's just that and the Worst Memory incident from OoP that's hinted at in his attitude or do you think we're going to get more revelations about his less than friendly relationship with the Mauraders?
SJ Rand - Dec 24, 2003 10:03 am (#259 of 2956)
Re-reading GoF I found a very odd thought in Harry's mind.
Something about [Name] would no sooner [whatever] than Snape would adopt Harry.
I froze when I read that.
Where on earth did that thought come from, I asked myself. Okay, two absurdities are being compared in Harry's mind, but why ever would he even think to compare anything to the odds against Snape adopting him?
I don't usually go in for off the wall theories, but I think that reference was just too strange to not foreshadow something.
Gina R Snape - Dec 24, 2003 10:11 am (#260 of 2956)
Rand, you wouldn't believe how many fanfic stories came out of that one little line! It would be very very very interesting to see the circumstances under which it happened. But considering that Harry is an orphan, it's not as surprising that he'd think of comparing anyone adopting him as a child whose parents are alive. Does that make sense?
Maybe you should put that on a theory thread and see what people come up with.
Madame Librarian - Dec 24, 2003 10:13 am (#261 of 2956)
Please accept an apology for my total density on this one. Rand, I don't get the bracket business in your quote. Can you direct me to the citation, or flesh it out a bit more? Sounds really intriguing and I'm feeling stoopid here. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 24, 2003 11:07 am (#262 of 2956)
Barb,
The thing with the brackets was because I forgot who and what he was comparing it too. You're not being dense, I'm being forgetful.
I'll give a quick scan for it... have to start cooking the "feast of the seven fishes" Christmas eve meal soon or we'll be eating it on New Year's eve. Oh, how I love holiday cooking...
Edit
I found it posted by Weeny Owl in the Snape #1 thread. The quote was "Snape would let us play in class about as soon as he'd adopt me." That'll give us a general idea of where it was in the book.
Thanks, Weeny Owl!
Weeny Owl - Dec 24, 2003 12:49 pm (#263 of 2956)
It was chapter Twenty-Two, "The Unexpected Task." US Scholastic paperback edition, page 392.
It was about the last week before the Yule Ball where Harry was thinking about which teachers let them goof off in class and which ones were sticking to their lessons.
I don't think Snape would actually adopt Harry, but with Sirius dead, perhaps Dumbledore might push them into a relationship whereby Snape is Harry's guardian in the Wizarding World.
That could prove to be a scenario fraught with drama and angst or it could prove to be quite hilarious, or maybe both.
It could also provide a basis for Harry finding out Snape's history and more about the Marauders and their histories.
What would really crack me up would be if JKR had it happen during summer and Snape visited Harry while Dudders was around. I would love to see Dudders react to the sarcasm and sneers.
If something like that did happen, it might be where Harry finds out more about exactly how much Petunia knows about the Wizarding World.
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 24, 2003 12:56 pm (#264 of 2956)
The quote is on page 392 of the American version, in chapter 22, The Unexpected Task. It is not a direct quote from Harry, either, at least in the American version. It is from a paragraph about how some of the teachers almost quit teaching because the students were obsessed with the Yule Ball, while other teachers didn't let up at all.
I doubt it is foreshadowing anything, since Harry is almost of age in the Wizarding World.
Never mind, Weeny got in before me.
Blast - Dec 24, 2003 1:23 pm (#265 of 2956)
Maybe in Sirius's will, he leaves his gaurdian duties to Harry to someone else. It would really be interesting to see Snape take over this duty. BTW I think that Snape in different circumstances would make an excellent Godfather. Uncle Snape could I borrow your broom tonight?
SJ Rand - Dec 25, 2003 9:59 am (#266 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>What would really crack me up would be if JKR had it happen during summer and Snape visited Harry while Dudders was around. I would love to see Dudders react to the sarcasm and sneers.
Forget Dudley, I'd love to see a Snape in full bloom going at kind and loving Uncle Vernon. He certainly wouldn't apologize for blowing up the fireplace, that's for sure. Might even take out the living room and kitchen too, for good measure.
Nimrod 2000,
He didn't speak it aloud, but it was presented from Harry's perspective of events, as most of the narrative in the series is.
I agree that Snape couldn't literally adopt Harry, with Harry being 16 next book it would be a bit odd at the least. But that comment was still so "out of left field" (appropriate to nothing at all going on at the time) that I think it's likely meant to be a clue of some sort.
I wonder if Rowling originally thought the Snape/Harry lessons in OotP would go differently, but the characters "resisted" as sometimes happens with good writers. Or if we won't see a change until book six or seven.
Blast end newt:>>BTW I think that Snape in different circumstances would make an excellent Godfather.
I don't know about being an "excellent Godfather", and I still hate the guy, but he'd make for a fierce bodyguard.
Weeny Owl - Dec 25, 2003 10:41 am (#267 of 2956)
SJ:
I love the smiley, and your point about Uncle Vernon is great. After his reactions to Mad-Eye and Hagrid,I would love to see what Snape swooping around and sneering would do.
septentrion - Dec 25, 2003 11:07 am (#268 of 2956)
Do you think it's just that and the Worst Memory incident from OoP i that's hinted at in his (Snape's) attitude or do you think we're going to get i more revelations about his less than friendly relationship with the i Mauraders?
HPfan, I hope we'll get more revelations, it seems to me that we lack some informations to understand the whole background of the hatred between Snape and the marauders, and therefore why Snape hated Harry so strongly and so immediately.
I also wonder what would be Snape's attitude towards Harry if Harry had let himself be sorted in Slytherin.
SJ Rand - Dec 25, 2003 2:40 pm (#269 of 2956)
septentrion: >>I hope we'll get more revelations, it seems to me that we lack some informations to understand the whole background of the hatred between Snape and the marauders...
I think we'll at least get more of James and friends side of the story, since the Snape memory only shows one incident. It's mentioned elsewhere that by the time Snape came to Hogwarts he was very well versed in the dark arts, and knew more curses as a first year than most seventh year students. (something along those lines)
I really can't imagine someone with that much skill and desire ending up as a helpless patsy without a substantial history between him and the group. I'd go so far as to guess that Snape was the aggressor, a Draco type, until somebody found something out about him and used that information to keep him from starting fights or fighting back.
Wild speculation, but how else does this acknowledged font of knowledge in dark arts and curses end up dangling upside down from a spell James cast out of boredom?
Edit:
That just got me thinking of something else.
Imagine thirty years from now, Draco putting his worst memories into a pensive. Someone might well see one of those memories, and the part of the memory they see could be Draco and his buddies suddenly getting turned into slugs by a group of obviously malicious bullies on the Hogwarts Express.
"Foul children!" everyone would cry. "Look at what they did to that poor child!"
Of course they wouldn't know what happened before Draco and crew got slimed, and why it was about the least of what they deserved.
septentrion - Dec 26, 2003 1:32 am (#270 of 2956)
SJ Rand, I didn't think of it ! How a supposed Dark Arts skilled boy can let himself being humiliated in front of thier fellows ? By the way, even if Snape was that good in magic, he didn't react quickly enough when James attacked him and he lost his wand, so he couldn't defend himself. I guess he should have taken a revenge later, but in a cunning, slytherin way...
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 8:27 am (#271 of 2956)
That pensieve scene was certainly not the finest hour for Severus nor the Marauders for a variety of reasons. But I find it very very interesting that JKR chooses to tell us Snape was an oddball and into the dark arts, but shows us scenes where Snape is the one suffering. How I'd love to see the scene where Snape gets his comeuppance for Marauder abuse. What I'd really like to see is how it all started. Because the sense I get is that Snape showed up at school with all this dark arts knowledge (theories abound regarding why...). Sirius and James took an immediate disliking to the kid and the rift began.
I have no doubt there were times Snape got one in on the guys. But the Draco/Harry comparison is most striking because over and over again it seems Severus was the Harry and James (or Sirius) was the Draco in this relationship.
Someone going back into a pensieve would see Draco, Crabbe and Goyle turned into slugs with scorching hexmarks, but if they saw the whole scene they would've seen the boys entering Harry's car and starting with them. And, fairly consistently that's what happens. We almost never see Harry and Ron initiating (the mud flinging scene in PoA a notable exception).
In the pensieve scene, we see the start of the scene at exams. Snape was walking alone, looking at the exam paper, and gets picked on because the boys were bored and wanted to show off. And they didn't just hit him with a few hexes. They went to pains to completely humiliate him. It was a pretty complete scene in terms of lead-up I think. If something had happened earlier in the day? Probably, something always happened nearly every day. How far back need one go for a scene to be complete?
But again, DD refers to their relationship akin to that of Harry and Draco. But repeatedly, Snape is the Harry. My emphathy for him as the one picked on stands.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 8:57 am (#272 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: >>How far back need one go for a scene to be complete?
But again, DD refers to their relationship akin to that of Harry and Draco. But repeatedly, Snape is the Harry. My emphathy for him as the one picked on stands.
How far back is my question too. It's possible that he never did anything at all. It's also possible that he was the ten ton gorilla when he first came to Hogwarts. Or that he liked showing off his skills. He had to have done something for anyone else to know that he knew a lot of advanced curses even as a first year. That doesn't mean he had to do something bad, but if he didn't use his curses in some way who could ever realize he knew them at all?
So we either have a would-be bully who got trumped, or a Hermione type showing off in class (the insufferable know it all of his own class).
We need some more background. Right now we can't tell if he became the target of choice because he was originally the nasty one and as the others became more powerful they gave back what he used to give them, or only because he was the wizard equivalent of a "geek". It's even harder to figure out when it's James who Dumbledore refers to as one of the best students that Hogwarts has ever seen. (I think it was Dumbledore who said that)
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 9:17 am (#273 of 2956)
Ack! When oh when is book 6 coming out?! We need these questions answered!
Although it is complete conjecture, I suspect Snape was a know-it-all like Hermione (showing off in DADA classes, teeny tiny writing on his DADA OWL to cram in everything he knows...). But I also suspect his skills were "discovered" after he was quick to respond when someone picked on him, causing people to step back and say "Blimey How'd you learn to do that?!" Someone laugh at him for struggling with that broom? Bam! I'll show you... A reactive kid who never made real friends, but maybe some of the older Slytherins (Malfoy, anyone?) saw this kid as very useful.
I base this primarily on two things. One, just like Snape, we see Hermione reviewing the exam questions afterwards, and the tiny writing on the OWLS I already mentioned. Two, the theory that Snape was the one who hexed Bertha Jorkins in the DD pensieve scene. Also, the pensieve memories we see of him being laughed at or picked on, and his general personality from what I see. Oh, and it would be kind of cute if he was always found hanging out in the library looking at books from the Restricted Section.
You have added to my fanfic idea regarding Snape's childhood. So thanks!
Weeny Owl - Dec 26, 2003 9:23 am (#274 of 2956)
Gina:
I agree with you that it seems to be Harry and Snape being picked on while James and Draco are the agressors. I'm not sure how much Snape actually witnesses of what Ferret Boy does to the trio, though. I would love to see a situation where he had to take points from Slytherin for the little snot's behavior or at least have to quietly sneer while another professor did.
I would like to know more about his relationship with the Malfoys because it seems odd that Ferret Boy is the only one he calls by a first name (at least that I remember).
Good observation about his tiny writing and reviewing questions from his exams, Gina.
SJ:
Interesting thought about Snape being the know it all. I can imagine that if he were something of a show-off, seeing that very same quality in Hermione might be part of why he reacts to her the way he does. In a way he's complimenting her even if he would deny it.
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 11:48 am (#275 of 2956)
Thanks, Weeny.
His reactions toward Hermione might also be someting of an attempt to protect her. Knowing firsthand that "nobody likes a know-it-all" he could be, in his own way, trying to not let what happened to him happen to her. What he does not realise, though, is that Hermione has a core set of friends and perhaps even a better core set of Slytherin tactics than young Severus had at the same age. The problems he may have faced she began to deal with in her very first year. Ron pointed out she had no friends--until they faced adversity together. She is more outgoing that young Severus might have been, and so successfully jumped that social hurdle whereas he could not.
Of course, children like Hermione are also in their own ways disruptive to the classroom setting. You cannot always rely on one student to answer all the questions. He poses questions to see if any kids have read, or surmised, or even paying attention, and sometimes to make dramatic points. Hermione tends to disrupt the flow by constantly raising her hand and squirming in her seat. I could easily see not just Snape but quite a few other teachers growing annoyed with this behaviour after a while.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 12:27 pm (#276 of 2956)
The wild card still at play here is the question of why a kid versed in the dark arts and who knows more curses than seventh year students would allow himself to be victimized. One would think that a single encounter of a third year hitting Snape with a body lock only to find himself transformed into a jellybean later on would be enough to keep random bullies from going after him.
Bullies do, on odd occasion, pick on people that can defend themselves, but most often they go after the weak. Snape, we've been told, was far from being weak. So who idly picks on a first year who could take on a NEWT level student?
septentrion - Dec 26, 2003 12:52 pm (#277 of 2956)
Maybe everyone feared the young Snape, except the marauders. These last ones seemed to fear no one, even Dumbledore. After all, they managed to become animagi and to wander with a werewolf in Hogwarts grounds, right under Dumbledore's nose ! They were confident in themselves. Yet, in the pensieve scene, if Snape was so fearful, so terrible, I doubt if Lily would have defended him. You generally help someone weak, not someone you fear. SJRand, it will be difficult to give an answer to your question without a lot of speculations, I hope we have more clues in book 6.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 1:24 pm (#278 of 2956)
septentrion: >>Yet, in the pensieve scene, if Snape was so fearful, so terrible, I doubt if Lily would have defended him. You generally help someone weak, not someone you fear.
That's a good point.
Blast it. As Gina said, I want more information. Bring on book six, please.
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 1:44 pm (#279 of 2956)
That is a good question. I suspect the Marauders habitually ganged up on young Severus as a team. Also, perhaps Severus' reflexes weren't that quick. Sure, he knew a lot of spells--but he'd have to get you before you got him!
Sirius describes him as being an oddball, slimy, into the dark arts. Other impressions we get were that he was smart but a loner, geeky, nosy, skinny, a bit uncoordinated and possibly angry and depressed. The Marauders on the other hand were popular, handsome, athletic and gifted, but pranksters, mischievious, cocky and maybe somewhat 'ruled the school.'
Snape probably din't pick fights outright because of being outnumbered and, like I suggested before, possibly slow reflexes. But just like Draco (who tried to get HRH in trouble over the dragon), Snape spied on the Marauders in attempts to expose their rulebreaking. Very Slytherin-like in my opinion and certainly the makings of a boy destined to grow up to be a spy. That would make him 'fair game' in the Marauders' eyes, and is definitely backed up by canon with Sirius telling Harry that Snape was always snooping around wanting to know where Lupin went every month--which ultimately lead up to the shrieking shack incident.
One question then, if this was the case, is who was more right or wrong? The Marauders broke rules--were they good 'ol boys having a bit of fun? Or too smart for their own good arrogant gits whose games and jokes were potentially deadly? Did Snape simply resent their rulebreaking and popularity and wanted to take them down a peg? Does that make him terrible and annoying? Or sneaky but ultimately moral and seeking a sense of justice? Or did the Marauders 'start' and he just found an interesting way of pestering them back?
Sirius and James outright resented his interest in the dark arts and the shrieking shack was definitely in my mind their revenge for his attempts to have them exposed. The pensieve scene for sure made it look like they took pot shots at him any chance they got. Regardless of how we try to piece the history together, the Marauders were smart and fun kids, but they also had poor judgment. In the pensieve scene, they definitely went too far. And with the shrieking shack prank, Sirius specifically went too far.
Weeny Owl - Dec 26, 2003 2:19 pm (#280 of 2956)
I really like Hermione but I'm sure some of her teachers become exasperated with her. When she raises her hand it's one thing, but Snape warned her in PoA before he made the "insufferable know-it-all" comment. As intelligent as she is, she needs to learn that Snape can be pushed only so far before he puts his foot down.
Snape is a smart guy, but he lets his desires get in the way, and wanting to find out something about the Marauders is a good example. Sometimes he's a "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts" type of person.
He and Hermione are both too rigid in so many ways. During the first Occlumency lesson Snape was too concerned with being called "Professor" or "sir" than with taking time to explain to a frightened teenager exactly how to go about blocking thoughts. If Snape had just suspended the teacher/student protocol for a bit and let Harry ask questions, a lot of what happened might have been avoided.
There are just so many hints that could go either way as to why Snape is the way he is.
I still think he's on the side of the Order but he needs a Dale Carnegie course to go with his redemption.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 2:47 pm (#281 of 2956)
If what we saw is all there was to it, the marauders were certainly way out of line and I can fully understand a grudge that lasts even up to the present day.
A funny aspect of all this is that, being versed in dark arts, Snape would probably be one of very few students who wouldn't care that Lupin was a werewolf. It probably would have intrigued him. So would the animagus part. As to the marauders hating Snape because he was a dark arts student, well how much darker can you get than going on a monthly killing spree? Didn't stop them from befriending Lupin, who was an outcast as well.
Snape came to school as what these guys became while there: outlaws, and (it seems) they disliked Snape because he was an outlaw, which is even more ironic.
No, this still bugs me. These guys should have been friends, not enemies. Unless it all comes down to "class" (money), Snape and the marauders had more in common than Harry has with Ron.
It really doesn't add up well at all. James thinks Lupin is cool because he's a werewolf, but thinks Snape is a creep for knowing dark arts and curses? How do you rectify those two things without deciding that a big part of the puzzle is missing? If being a werewolf is cool, then casting dark curses has to be just as cool.
Weeny Owl: >>I still think he's on the side of the Order but he needs a Dale Carnegie course to go with his redemption.
I love that line.
MTW - Dec 26, 2003 7:18 pm (#282 of 2956)
I think "rule breaking" is the important divide between Snape and the Marauders. The Marauders saw their actions as a bit of harmless fun. Snape on the other hand saw them breaking rules and getting away with it because of their popularity. Something that Snape has harped on about Harry in every book. Whether the importance of rules to Snape came about through strict discipline from his father or ( near fatal ) brush with rule breaking on his own. Its the fault that would prevent any kind of friendship. Eventually leading to Snape joining the proto Death Eaters.
Marigold Evans - Dec 26, 2003 7:19 pm (#283 of 2956)
"These guys should have been friends, not enemies"
Well, look at it this way: you have Snape, who is very good at Dark Arts. You have the Marauders, who are good at other forms of magic. You have a Slytheran / Gryffindor rivalry that frequently gets out of hand. Why invite Snape into the group when you can try to best him? If you are trying to show off, a la James & Sirius, you need a worthy opponent, not just some Joe Schmo. Snape was obviously good enough to fight back against the four of them, and from the rival house to boot.
magepeachtree - Dec 26, 2003 10:23 pm (#284 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: "During the first Occlumency lesson Snape was too concerned with being called "Professor" or "sir" than with taking time to explain to a frightened teenager exactly how to go about blocking thoughts."
I think there must be something very important coming up about showing people the respect due their position. Both Dumbledore and Sirius chastise Harry for not calling Snape "Professor." DD even does it right after Sirius dies, when Harry's even more emotional and afraid. It has to be important. He definitely could have done it a better way, but we can't forget, he is Snape.
septentrion - Dec 27, 2003 4:51 am (#285 of 2956)
Marigold Evans : Why invite Snape into the group when you can try to best him?
Snape as a foil for the marauders ? why not
magepeachtree : I think there must be something very important coming up about showing people the respect due their position
I didn't think of it till now, but yes Snape is not the only one to give importance to this fact. Is it just education of young people ? I can't find any other satisfactory explanation for this. To call some one by his title doesn't make one becoming something else or makes one to appear or whatever else, if so, even DD woundn't say "Voldemort". Does I make sense ? But I don't remember Sirius telling Harry to call Snape "professor" ? Could you give the reference, please ?
Gina R Snape - Dec 27, 2003 7:06 am (#286 of 2956)
By Harry not calling him Professor Snape, it shows disrespect. The fact that he does it on an habitual basis shows that Harry has absolutely no respect for him. I think Dumbledore and many others know this, and Harry simply needs to be reminded that just because you don't like someone does not mean you don't show them respect. I think Harry will learn, in time, that there are things about Snape worth respecting. In the meantime, his lack of respect for those he dislikes has already gotten him into trouble. He was boiling in oil for Umbridge, and McGonagall reminded him (like Snape has many times) that he needs to learn how and when to keep his mouth shut. That's not mean, that's an important lesson that could come back and bite him in the behind.
Will the lack of 'Professor' before Snape bite him in the bum? Good question. It might come down to Harry failing to show respect at a crucial turning point. And I can't help but wonder how their relationship will change in book 6. Harry failed to see Snape's efforts when Dumbledore told him, and now Harry hates Snape more than ever. It could prove disastrous.
SJ Rand - Dec 27, 2003 9:25 am (#287 of 2956)
On the "call me professor or sir" thing.
When Dumbledore corrects Harry it's because Harry has said "Snape" without using his title.
When Snape corrects Harry it's because Harry dared speak a sentence without adding "professor" or "sir". That's a big difference. It's something one would expect in military "boot camp", or in addressing royalty. It's purpose is to remind the speaker of his inferior position.
You don't say "But why did he do that?". You say "But, sir, why did he do that professor Snape, sir?". Then you salute and stand at attention while waiting for an answer, preferably softly humming the school song or national anthem and getting the boot polish ready.
This isn't a reflection on Harry's attitudes, it's a reflection on Snape's attitudes. Harry and the other kids can manage to speak entire paragraphs to Dumbledore or McGonagall without using their royal title, and neither raises an eyebrow at this horrid infraction against military discipline... errr, proper addressing of superiors.
If Snape were so concerned with proper form, he'd refer to Harry by his given name or as "Mister Potter", not just "Potter". In the same lesson, Snape refers to Professor Dumbledore as just "Dumbledore". To a student. To the same student he just demanded affix his own royal title to each sentence.
Seems to me it's only his own position that he's concerned with.
Edit:
To be fair, I strongly doubt that Snape was any more pleased about needing to teach Occlumency to Harry than Harry was to have to learn it from Snape. DD, as he later admitted, messed up big time there, and I've no idea how or why he could ever think that things would have worked out any differently than the way they did.
Weeny Owl - Dec 27, 2003 11:07 am (#288 of 2956)
In Harry's defense, he has legitimate reasons for having little respect for Snape.
Dumbledore has reminded Harry more than once about referring to Snape by his title. Molly has reminded Harry about it as well (mage, I think you meant Molly and not Sirius. When Snape came to 12 Grimmauld Place about the Occlumency lessons, Molly told Harry Snape wanted a word with him, and that's when she reminded him about the "Professor Snape" thing).
Dumbledore is frequently called by his last name, so I feel he is in a class by himself as is Hagrid.
I do find it interesting that while Snape calls Ron, Harry, and Neville by their last names, he always calls Hermione "Miss Granger." I can't remember an instance where he hasn't.
I do think Snape and Harry are oil and water at this point. Neither is willing to try to understand the other person.
In many ways Harry and Snape are somewhat alike. They both have too much curiosity that gets them in trouble, they are both incredibly hard headed, and they both have problems stepping back and looking at situations rationally rather than emotionally.
I'm not sure if the outcome of the war is doing to depend on Harry and Snape learning to work together, but things might be easier for both of them if they could learn.
Little Ginny - Dec 27, 2003 12:35 pm (#289 of 2956)
I'm not really sure, but isn't all that calling the boys with surnames and girls with Miss, and saying sir to teachers very British?
Forgive me if I'm totally wrong now, but I got the impression when watching British films. But as I am neither British nor American, could someone from Britain tell me whether this would be normal adressing in school or not, please?
Weeny Owl - Dec 27, 2003 12:59 pm (#290 of 2956)
Little Ginny:
It might be, but Snape does call Ferret Boy Draco at least once that I remember.
Blast - Dec 27, 2003 7:01 pm (#291 of 2956)
Does the British school system call the males by their last names and the ladies as Miss[last name]. Growing up in the colonies, in many ways we have a British influence. In High School I had about three teachers that called the boys last name only, and the girls as Miss [last name]. Doesn't Professor McGonagal address the students in the same way. Also Harry blames Snape in part for Sirius's death. This to me is a copout on Harry's part. Snape was also a rule breaker. Sirius mentions that Snape did not mind jinxing someone if he got the chance.Lupin was not breaking the rules when he went to the shrieking shack. Snape was breaking them when he followed Lupin. Snape is stewing in his own vision of the past. I think that he was more jealous of the Mauraders popularity than at breaking the rules. What made Snape become a Death Eater in the first place? Since he knew a lot of Dark Arts maybe joining the Death Eaters was his chance to prove his talent. Snape does need to relize that Harry is not James. Sirius realizes this when Harry objects to Sirius's suggestion to come to Hogsmead in his anamagus form to meet them. Sirius tells him that the risk would of made it fun for James. Harry might look like his dad, but he is not the same person. Snape must come to terms with this and start to respect Harry and Harry must come to terms and respect Snape.
Devika - Dec 28, 2003 1:52 am (#292 of 2956)
About girls being addressed as Miss and boys by their surnames, I was reminded of a passage in 'To Sir, with love'. I'm not British myself, but in the book, the new teacher ER Braithwaite, sets some rules of conduct saying that boys will be addressed by their surnames, and girls as Miss. He also said that he will be called Sir or Mr. Braithwaite. Later he says that these are basic courtsies. I think we need not look too deep into this except that by this outlook Snape's attitude towards teaching is underlined - professional, formal, and impersonal.
SJ Rand wrote "These guys should have been friends, not enemies" I think more than anything else the main reason why Snape and the Marauders could not have been friends was that they were in Gryffindor(assumption) and Snape was in Slytherin. The traditional rivalry between the two would suffice to keep their realations antagonistic. The arrogant, rule-breaking ways of the marauders and Snape's own slimy and underhand ways wouldn't have helped their cause. Even Lily, who I assume was in Gryffindor, while protecting Snape doesn't show a sympathetic attitude towards him - more a problem with the way the marauders were treating him. I mean can we imagine Harry or any other Gryffindors being good friends with or a least not disliking a Slytherin, whatever he/she might be like. Just as Harry and Malfoy had no great reason for enimity except instinctive dislike, fuelled by subsequent incidents, so I don't think there is some great hidden reason about why there was enemity between them.
septentrion - Dec 28, 2003 6:48 am (#293 of 2956)
About Snape insisting for Harry to call him "sir" or "professor", maybe it's just because he dislikes Harry.
On another subject, Sirius assumed that Snape knew more curses when he arrived in Hogwarts than half the 7th years students (GoF, Padfoot returns). Is it that sure or could Sirius' memories be distorted by time and disliking ? Was Snape's reputation a little swollen ? I'd like your opinion about this.
magepeachtree - Dec 28, 2003 9:06 am (#294 of 2956)
You guys are right, I got Harry's surrogate parental figures all mixed up. It was starting to get late, I apologize.
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 9:45 am (#295 of 2956)
I don't think we know that all the marauders were in Gryffindor. We don't even know that Snape was a Slytherin. It seems to be a good basic assumption, but from things said in the series, especially OotP, I wouldn't be surprised if Pettigrew was a (bumbling) Hufflepuff, and Sirius a Slytherin. Sirius not only came from a long line of pureblood dark wizards, but had a very pronounced dark side himself.
I'd also guess that the prejudice against Slytherin wasn't quite as great in those pre-Voldemort days. One of the things used to run down Slytherin is that most of Voldemort's supporters came from that house, but that hadn't happened yet.
James seems to have been drawn to "sport" and malicious "fun". A stereo-typical rich kid brat in love with breaking rules and going against the norm. I don't think he'd have cared that someone who could add to his rule breaking party was in Slytherin. That could even have made it more fun, especially if it shocked his house mates.
Again, back to the "call me sir..." bit.
This is a selective application of insisting on proper respect. He tells Harry to show him respect, but minutes later when Harry says "Professor Dumbledore says his name (Voldemort's)", Snape replies "Dumbledore is an extemely powerful wizard".
Not "professor Dumbledore", or "Headmaster Dumbledore", just "Dumbledore". If he's trying to re-enforce proper respect, then he should have said "Professor Dumbledore". Since he didn't, his concern is shown to be with getting respect for himself, not teaching Harry to be respectful.
Madame Librarian - Dec 28, 2003 11:40 am (#296 of 2956)
For what it's worth, here is Snape's bio from the Lexicon:
Snape attended Hogwarts in the 1970s as a Slytherin, and was in the same year as Gryffindors James Potter, Sirius Black, and Remus Lupin.
And, if you check the Death Eater thread, post #63, here, Wendelin paraphrases from GoF that Sirius describes Snape as part of a "gang of Slytherins."
So, if we accept that as two sources, one canon, one well researched, I think we can say that Snape was a Slytherin. Now, I'm not sure I have time to dig for the exact quote about Snape from GoF, but I'll get to it when I can. Unless, of course, someone can find it or knows where it is exactly already (mucho thanks if you do).
Ciao. Barb
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 11:50 am (#297 of 2956)
Madame Librarian: "Snape as part of a 'gang of Slytherins' "
I am curious to see Snape in a pal kind of situation. I hope book 6 brings us more background on him. Does he have any friends??? Did he have school pals? He doesnt seem to have a crabbe and goyle-like entourage in the pensieve. Curious....
lisa
septentrion - Dec 28, 2003 12:02 pm (#298 of 2956)
Madam Librarian, the Sirius' quote you're looking for is "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters", Gof, Padfoot returns, p 531 american paperback edition.
Madame Librarian - Dec 28, 2003 12:12 pm (#299 of 2956)
Thanks, Septentrion!
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 12:31 pm (#300 of 2956)
Thanks, Barb. That corrects my saying that we don't know Snape was Slytherin, since we do (or now I do too).
ElfWorks and septentrion's posts also shoot down the "quiet loner" and "follows the rules" theories expressed earlier.
The marauders could have been a "rival gang" to that Slytherin gang, and that horrid pensieve scene could have been revenge for something that happened earlier, just as an urban street gang might beat up a member of another gang for something that happened hours or days before. As far as we know, these two groups could have been trading curses since they got to Hogwarts.
I think it's extremely significant that Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape were the only 3 to appear in the foe glass in GoF. To say Dumbledore didn't need them except to run errands is, in my mind, like saying all the staff are interchangeable when it comes to tasks. But the foe glass scene set up a literal image of a triumverate. Dumbledore relies on those two more than anyone else in the school for things we/Harry are not fully privy to.
JKR has specifically stated she puts things in books to give hints for future books. It's why book 5 was so long. "So no one will say 'why didn't you give us a clue beforehand'..." While I agree that during the writing process ideas emerge--that is half the fun of writing--for a seven book series to weave together successfully all the complicated relationships, magical abilities and an overall cohesive world, JKR did a considerable amount of work. She has outlines and charts for every book. Characters, skills, backgrounds, etc. She's shown some of them in past interviews.
It's part of what makes this forum so much fun. She gives us a wide berth to pinpoint and pontificate what's a deliberate clue, what's a red herring, what's a mere coincidence. And time and time again very little is left as a coincidence. I think it's a part of what makes her such a great writer, or at least what makes her so much fun to read.
The thing about Snape intentionally teaching the kids things is that he does everything in a sneaky underhanded way. He does not directly pound into the kids "learn this, it will be useful the next time you meet a dementor." He gives them enough rope to pull themselves up or hang themselves.
Even if one disagrees with the concept of him using "tough love" or accomplishment through adversity, we can see his sneaky teaching methods in the way he gave the kids the werewolf essay, or when he teaches them Expelliarmus. Because any spell would have embarrassed Lockhart--heck I could probably embarrass Lockhart. But after Snape disarmend him, Lockhart was quick enough on the uptake to realise that the kids should be learning to disarm each other as a result of that little demonstration and not casting spells to one another recklessly.
It's strange, because Snape is so flamboyant in many ways. You would think he would be direct about why they must learn things. But he's not. He puts it out there and they pick it up or they don't. In a way, he gives the kids a lot of credit--just not being nice about it. When he assigned the werewolf essay, it was with the hopes that some of the kids would figure it out. I think he just didn't count on Hermione not telling anyone what she'd figured out--seeing as she's such an insufferable know-it-all who likes to show off...
So, the same way Snape slithers around the edges, or lurks beneath the surface in his teaching, so is his character written. He's always there. He's frequently on the kids' minds. He's always up to something behind the scenes. He always knows more or figures out something (except during the Shrieking Shack scene), and when he does stick out his neck he never gets any credit. I love him precisely because he's so easy to dislike, so easy to dismiss as embittered and peripheral and ugly and unpleasant. But I see him as funny and heroic and staunch and above all else intelligent and moral. And I like big noses.
Edit: SJ Rand posted while I was still composing this one. But, I do see characters in terms of the whole series and not individual books. I see it that way because the seven books will have in effect told one story--the story of Harry Potter. She writes with deliberate continuity. And I would say after book 1, you cannot read the books individually without reading the ones before it. No book will make sense without reading the others except for book 1 in my opinion. (with the obvious personal bias that I think you could carry on without book 2 and not miss much, but that's for another thread!)
ElfWorks - Dec 15, 2003 3:12 pm (#252 of 2956)
It is my opinion that JKR has spent entirely too much time working out every little detail to dismiss anyone as unimportant to anything. One might be tempted to say that MadameRosmerta isnt an important character, but the series isnt over and you never know.... She has already played an important role in being the means to harry hearing some stuff. TECHNICALLY speaking, HRH are truly the MOST IMPORTANT characters, but I agree with gina, the characters should be viewed from the point of the entire series. Some little something that some little "nobody" did in book 1 may come back around and i think it probably will. And to trivialize Snape's part in all this is a big mistake. IMO Snape is a major character as are Dumbledore and Minerva. Triumvirate is exactly the right word! They are the HRH of the older generation!
xo
SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 3:17 pm (#253 of 2956)
Gina R Snape,
If you're defining a major character as any character who has, in any single book, made a major contribution to the single story that is the series taken as a whole, then yes, Snape is a major character. So is Dobby... and he has a big nose too.
timrew - Dec 15, 2003 4:03 pm (#254 of 2956)
And big ears! It seems like everyone has got onto a merry-go-round here. So-and so is a major character, I don't agree - he, she it, is not, ad infinitum.
Everyone has their opinion, and no matter what anyone says, it's not going to get changed.
IMHO, this is not making an interesting thread.
Romana - Dec 16, 2003 3:46 am (#255 of 2956)
I think Snape seems a major character from the very first book. The first time I read PS/SS, Snape stuck out like a sore thumb, I just couldn't help but notice him. From the first Snape is portrayed as 'dark and mysterious' and you can't help but ask the questions (throughly discussed on this forum) who is this guy? Why does he act the way he does? He doesn't feature too much in the first two books, and yet we are still curious about him. In my opinon this alone makes Snape a major character, and JK's descriptions causing this effect are probably quite deliberate. I would be surprised if they weren't.
Devika - Dec 16, 2003 5:15 am (#256 of 2956)
There is no doubt that Snape is a very major character. He was given a distinctive introduction in Book 1. Throughout he has been a teacher Harry has been very bothered about - JKR doesn't give us so much detail about anyone else's classes. In Book 3 we came to know a vague bit about his school days and in Book 4 about his being a death-eater turned spy. Book 5 showed us a lot more about his character and inspite of all this he remains a mysterious character for whom we are shooting guesses in the dark. With most other characters we at least know where they are heading, but with Snape, as a reader one has no clue what he might do next and what he did in the past. He must be an important character, otherwise he would have faded into oblivion like other teachers inspite of not being instrumental in the main plot of most books. We have got such a complex picture of this man, that we just can't afford to ignore him. If a person is characterized that way then he has to be important.
Joanna S Lupin - Dec 17, 2003 12:13 pm (#257 of 2956)
I do agree with you Devika - Snape just can't be put in the same line with other teachers, he seems to be even more important for storyline than Dumbleddore himself. We see the story from the kids' point of view so it's obvious that Snape can't appear as often as they do, but all the same HE IS the most important person among adults in this story.
HP Fan - Dec 19, 2003 7:12 am (#258 of 2956)
I think Devika and Joanna S Lupin are right Snape is an important character amongst the adults however I don't think he's more important than DD partly because DD is one of the main sources of knowledge for Harry and by extension the reader, and also because of the constant theme in the books about DD being the most powerful wizard of the age. We get nothing said about Snape's magical prowess. Snape is a many layered complex character who on the surface appears an evil sadistic and that's your lot folks type of person. However as I think I may have said before still waters run deep and each book is bringing us just a little bit more of information about Snape. Which draws the reader or at least draws me into wanting to know more about him. And yes it's lead to threads like this discussing every little detail based on reading and re-reading the books and finding a wealth of clues or hints or little tit bits of information which may or may not be the result of reading too much into something. But that's what makes this forum fun. I don't mean to put anyone's back up with the next bit I'm going to say and I'm not going to mention names but having been away for a week and not having been able to browse for a couple of days before hand you can imagine I have had a lot of posts to read through and I feel some people are being way to aggressive towards those who disagree with them or criticise their posts. It's putting me off posting any opinions or commenting. Come on lets get some of the Harry Potter Magic and combine it with Christmas Spirit - trust me it's a potent combination and it will make everything more pleasant and enjoyable again for everyone.
OK rant over back to Snape.
I've been listening to my set of audio tapes for of the first three books and in the scene at the Shrieking Shack at the end of PoA I think there's evidence that Sirius' and possibly some of the other Maurader's must have played other tricks just as cruel as sending him into the Whomping Willow. Do you think it's just that and the Worst Memory incident from OoP that's hinted at in his attitude or do you think we're going to get more revelations about his less than friendly relationship with the Mauraders?
SJ Rand - Dec 24, 2003 10:03 am (#259 of 2956)
Re-reading GoF I found a very odd thought in Harry's mind.
Something about [Name] would no sooner [whatever] than Snape would adopt Harry.
I froze when I read that.
Where on earth did that thought come from, I asked myself. Okay, two absurdities are being compared in Harry's mind, but why ever would he even think to compare anything to the odds against Snape adopting him?
I don't usually go in for off the wall theories, but I think that reference was just too strange to not foreshadow something.
Gina R Snape - Dec 24, 2003 10:11 am (#260 of 2956)
Rand, you wouldn't believe how many fanfic stories came out of that one little line! It would be very very very interesting to see the circumstances under which it happened. But considering that Harry is an orphan, it's not as surprising that he'd think of comparing anyone adopting him as a child whose parents are alive. Does that make sense?
Maybe you should put that on a theory thread and see what people come up with.
Madame Librarian - Dec 24, 2003 10:13 am (#261 of 2956)
Please accept an apology for my total density on this one. Rand, I don't get the bracket business in your quote. Can you direct me to the citation, or flesh it out a bit more? Sounds really intriguing and I'm feeling stoopid here. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 24, 2003 11:07 am (#262 of 2956)
Barb,
The thing with the brackets was because I forgot who and what he was comparing it too. You're not being dense, I'm being forgetful.
I'll give a quick scan for it... have to start cooking the "feast of the seven fishes" Christmas eve meal soon or we'll be eating it on New Year's eve. Oh, how I love holiday cooking...
Edit
I found it posted by Weeny Owl in the Snape #1 thread. The quote was "Snape would let us play in class about as soon as he'd adopt me." That'll give us a general idea of where it was in the book.
Thanks, Weeny Owl!
Weeny Owl - Dec 24, 2003 12:49 pm (#263 of 2956)
It was chapter Twenty-Two, "The Unexpected Task." US Scholastic paperback edition, page 392.
It was about the last week before the Yule Ball where Harry was thinking about which teachers let them goof off in class and which ones were sticking to their lessons.
I don't think Snape would actually adopt Harry, but with Sirius dead, perhaps Dumbledore might push them into a relationship whereby Snape is Harry's guardian in the Wizarding World.
That could prove to be a scenario fraught with drama and angst or it could prove to be quite hilarious, or maybe both.
It could also provide a basis for Harry finding out Snape's history and more about the Marauders and their histories.
What would really crack me up would be if JKR had it happen during summer and Snape visited Harry while Dudders was around. I would love to see Dudders react to the sarcasm and sneers.
If something like that did happen, it might be where Harry finds out more about exactly how much Petunia knows about the Wizarding World.
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 24, 2003 12:56 pm (#264 of 2956)
The quote is on page 392 of the American version, in chapter 22, The Unexpected Task. It is not a direct quote from Harry, either, at least in the American version. It is from a paragraph about how some of the teachers almost quit teaching because the students were obsessed with the Yule Ball, while other teachers didn't let up at all.
I doubt it is foreshadowing anything, since Harry is almost of age in the Wizarding World.
Never mind, Weeny got in before me.
Blast - Dec 24, 2003 1:23 pm (#265 of 2956)
Maybe in Sirius's will, he leaves his gaurdian duties to Harry to someone else. It would really be interesting to see Snape take over this duty. BTW I think that Snape in different circumstances would make an excellent Godfather. Uncle Snape could I borrow your broom tonight?
SJ Rand - Dec 25, 2003 9:59 am (#266 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: >>What would really crack me up would be if JKR had it happen during summer and Snape visited Harry while Dudders was around. I would love to see Dudders react to the sarcasm and sneers.
Forget Dudley, I'd love to see a Snape in full bloom going at kind and loving Uncle Vernon. He certainly wouldn't apologize for blowing up the fireplace, that's for sure. Might even take out the living room and kitchen too, for good measure.
Nimrod 2000,
He didn't speak it aloud, but it was presented from Harry's perspective of events, as most of the narrative in the series is.
I agree that Snape couldn't literally adopt Harry, with Harry being 16 next book it would be a bit odd at the least. But that comment was still so "out of left field" (appropriate to nothing at all going on at the time) that I think it's likely meant to be a clue of some sort.
I wonder if Rowling originally thought the Snape/Harry lessons in OotP would go differently, but the characters "resisted" as sometimes happens with good writers. Or if we won't see a change until book six or seven.
Blast end newt:>>BTW I think that Snape in different circumstances would make an excellent Godfather.
I don't know about being an "excellent Godfather", and I still hate the guy, but he'd make for a fierce bodyguard.
Weeny Owl - Dec 25, 2003 10:41 am (#267 of 2956)
SJ:
I love the smiley, and your point about Uncle Vernon is great. After his reactions to Mad-Eye and Hagrid,I would love to see what Snape swooping around and sneering would do.
septentrion - Dec 25, 2003 11:07 am (#268 of 2956)
Do you think it's just that and the Worst Memory incident from OoP i that's hinted at in his (Snape's) attitude or do you think we're going to get i more revelations about his less than friendly relationship with the i Mauraders?
HPfan, I hope we'll get more revelations, it seems to me that we lack some informations to understand the whole background of the hatred between Snape and the marauders, and therefore why Snape hated Harry so strongly and so immediately.
I also wonder what would be Snape's attitude towards Harry if Harry had let himself be sorted in Slytherin.
SJ Rand - Dec 25, 2003 2:40 pm (#269 of 2956)
septentrion: >>I hope we'll get more revelations, it seems to me that we lack some informations to understand the whole background of the hatred between Snape and the marauders...
I think we'll at least get more of James and friends side of the story, since the Snape memory only shows one incident. It's mentioned elsewhere that by the time Snape came to Hogwarts he was very well versed in the dark arts, and knew more curses as a first year than most seventh year students. (something along those lines)
I really can't imagine someone with that much skill and desire ending up as a helpless patsy without a substantial history between him and the group. I'd go so far as to guess that Snape was the aggressor, a Draco type, until somebody found something out about him and used that information to keep him from starting fights or fighting back.
Wild speculation, but how else does this acknowledged font of knowledge in dark arts and curses end up dangling upside down from a spell James cast out of boredom?
Edit:
That just got me thinking of something else.
Imagine thirty years from now, Draco putting his worst memories into a pensive. Someone might well see one of those memories, and the part of the memory they see could be Draco and his buddies suddenly getting turned into slugs by a group of obviously malicious bullies on the Hogwarts Express.
"Foul children!" everyone would cry. "Look at what they did to that poor child!"
Of course they wouldn't know what happened before Draco and crew got slimed, and why it was about the least of what they deserved.
septentrion - Dec 26, 2003 1:32 am (#270 of 2956)
SJ Rand, I didn't think of it ! How a supposed Dark Arts skilled boy can let himself being humiliated in front of thier fellows ? By the way, even if Snape was that good in magic, he didn't react quickly enough when James attacked him and he lost his wand, so he couldn't defend himself. I guess he should have taken a revenge later, but in a cunning, slytherin way...
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 8:27 am (#271 of 2956)
That pensieve scene was certainly not the finest hour for Severus nor the Marauders for a variety of reasons. But I find it very very interesting that JKR chooses to tell us Snape was an oddball and into the dark arts, but shows us scenes where Snape is the one suffering. How I'd love to see the scene where Snape gets his comeuppance for Marauder abuse. What I'd really like to see is how it all started. Because the sense I get is that Snape showed up at school with all this dark arts knowledge (theories abound regarding why...). Sirius and James took an immediate disliking to the kid and the rift began.
I have no doubt there were times Snape got one in on the guys. But the Draco/Harry comparison is most striking because over and over again it seems Severus was the Harry and James (or Sirius) was the Draco in this relationship.
Someone going back into a pensieve would see Draco, Crabbe and Goyle turned into slugs with scorching hexmarks, but if they saw the whole scene they would've seen the boys entering Harry's car and starting with them. And, fairly consistently that's what happens. We almost never see Harry and Ron initiating (the mud flinging scene in PoA a notable exception).
In the pensieve scene, we see the start of the scene at exams. Snape was walking alone, looking at the exam paper, and gets picked on because the boys were bored and wanted to show off. And they didn't just hit him with a few hexes. They went to pains to completely humiliate him. It was a pretty complete scene in terms of lead-up I think. If something had happened earlier in the day? Probably, something always happened nearly every day. How far back need one go for a scene to be complete?
But again, DD refers to their relationship akin to that of Harry and Draco. But repeatedly, Snape is the Harry. My emphathy for him as the one picked on stands.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 8:57 am (#272 of 2956)
Gina R Snape: >>How far back need one go for a scene to be complete?
But again, DD refers to their relationship akin to that of Harry and Draco. But repeatedly, Snape is the Harry. My emphathy for him as the one picked on stands.
How far back is my question too. It's possible that he never did anything at all. It's also possible that he was the ten ton gorilla when he first came to Hogwarts. Or that he liked showing off his skills. He had to have done something for anyone else to know that he knew a lot of advanced curses even as a first year. That doesn't mean he had to do something bad, but if he didn't use his curses in some way who could ever realize he knew them at all?
So we either have a would-be bully who got trumped, or a Hermione type showing off in class (the insufferable know it all of his own class).
We need some more background. Right now we can't tell if he became the target of choice because he was originally the nasty one and as the others became more powerful they gave back what he used to give them, or only because he was the wizard equivalent of a "geek". It's even harder to figure out when it's James who Dumbledore refers to as one of the best students that Hogwarts has ever seen. (I think it was Dumbledore who said that)
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 9:17 am (#273 of 2956)
Ack! When oh when is book 6 coming out?! We need these questions answered!
Although it is complete conjecture, I suspect Snape was a know-it-all like Hermione (showing off in DADA classes, teeny tiny writing on his DADA OWL to cram in everything he knows...). But I also suspect his skills were "discovered" after he was quick to respond when someone picked on him, causing people to step back and say "Blimey How'd you learn to do that?!" Someone laugh at him for struggling with that broom? Bam! I'll show you... A reactive kid who never made real friends, but maybe some of the older Slytherins (Malfoy, anyone?) saw this kid as very useful.
I base this primarily on two things. One, just like Snape, we see Hermione reviewing the exam questions afterwards, and the tiny writing on the OWLS I already mentioned. Two, the theory that Snape was the one who hexed Bertha Jorkins in the DD pensieve scene. Also, the pensieve memories we see of him being laughed at or picked on, and his general personality from what I see. Oh, and it would be kind of cute if he was always found hanging out in the library looking at books from the Restricted Section.
You have added to my fanfic idea regarding Snape's childhood. So thanks!
Weeny Owl - Dec 26, 2003 9:23 am (#274 of 2956)
Gina:
I agree with you that it seems to be Harry and Snape being picked on while James and Draco are the agressors. I'm not sure how much Snape actually witnesses of what Ferret Boy does to the trio, though. I would love to see a situation where he had to take points from Slytherin for the little snot's behavior or at least have to quietly sneer while another professor did.
I would like to know more about his relationship with the Malfoys because it seems odd that Ferret Boy is the only one he calls by a first name (at least that I remember).
Good observation about his tiny writing and reviewing questions from his exams, Gina.
SJ:
Interesting thought about Snape being the know it all. I can imagine that if he were something of a show-off, seeing that very same quality in Hermione might be part of why he reacts to her the way he does. In a way he's complimenting her even if he would deny it.
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 11:48 am (#275 of 2956)
Thanks, Weeny.
His reactions toward Hermione might also be someting of an attempt to protect her. Knowing firsthand that "nobody likes a know-it-all" he could be, in his own way, trying to not let what happened to him happen to her. What he does not realise, though, is that Hermione has a core set of friends and perhaps even a better core set of Slytherin tactics than young Severus had at the same age. The problems he may have faced she began to deal with in her very first year. Ron pointed out she had no friends--until they faced adversity together. She is more outgoing that young Severus might have been, and so successfully jumped that social hurdle whereas he could not.
Of course, children like Hermione are also in their own ways disruptive to the classroom setting. You cannot always rely on one student to answer all the questions. He poses questions to see if any kids have read, or surmised, or even paying attention, and sometimes to make dramatic points. Hermione tends to disrupt the flow by constantly raising her hand and squirming in her seat. I could easily see not just Snape but quite a few other teachers growing annoyed with this behaviour after a while.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 12:27 pm (#276 of 2956)
The wild card still at play here is the question of why a kid versed in the dark arts and who knows more curses than seventh year students would allow himself to be victimized. One would think that a single encounter of a third year hitting Snape with a body lock only to find himself transformed into a jellybean later on would be enough to keep random bullies from going after him.
Bullies do, on odd occasion, pick on people that can defend themselves, but most often they go after the weak. Snape, we've been told, was far from being weak. So who idly picks on a first year who could take on a NEWT level student?
septentrion - Dec 26, 2003 12:52 pm (#277 of 2956)
Maybe everyone feared the young Snape, except the marauders. These last ones seemed to fear no one, even Dumbledore. After all, they managed to become animagi and to wander with a werewolf in Hogwarts grounds, right under Dumbledore's nose ! They were confident in themselves. Yet, in the pensieve scene, if Snape was so fearful, so terrible, I doubt if Lily would have defended him. You generally help someone weak, not someone you fear. SJRand, it will be difficult to give an answer to your question without a lot of speculations, I hope we have more clues in book 6.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 1:24 pm (#278 of 2956)
septentrion: >>Yet, in the pensieve scene, if Snape was so fearful, so terrible, I doubt if Lily would have defended him. You generally help someone weak, not someone you fear.
That's a good point.
Blast it. As Gina said, I want more information. Bring on book six, please.
Gina R Snape - Dec 26, 2003 1:44 pm (#279 of 2956)
That is a good question. I suspect the Marauders habitually ganged up on young Severus as a team. Also, perhaps Severus' reflexes weren't that quick. Sure, he knew a lot of spells--but he'd have to get you before you got him!
Sirius describes him as being an oddball, slimy, into the dark arts. Other impressions we get were that he was smart but a loner, geeky, nosy, skinny, a bit uncoordinated and possibly angry and depressed. The Marauders on the other hand were popular, handsome, athletic and gifted, but pranksters, mischievious, cocky and maybe somewhat 'ruled the school.'
Snape probably din't pick fights outright because of being outnumbered and, like I suggested before, possibly slow reflexes. But just like Draco (who tried to get HRH in trouble over the dragon), Snape spied on the Marauders in attempts to expose their rulebreaking. Very Slytherin-like in my opinion and certainly the makings of a boy destined to grow up to be a spy. That would make him 'fair game' in the Marauders' eyes, and is definitely backed up by canon with Sirius telling Harry that Snape was always snooping around wanting to know where Lupin went every month--which ultimately lead up to the shrieking shack incident.
One question then, if this was the case, is who was more right or wrong? The Marauders broke rules--were they good 'ol boys having a bit of fun? Or too smart for their own good arrogant gits whose games and jokes were potentially deadly? Did Snape simply resent their rulebreaking and popularity and wanted to take them down a peg? Does that make him terrible and annoying? Or sneaky but ultimately moral and seeking a sense of justice? Or did the Marauders 'start' and he just found an interesting way of pestering them back?
Sirius and James outright resented his interest in the dark arts and the shrieking shack was definitely in my mind their revenge for his attempts to have them exposed. The pensieve scene for sure made it look like they took pot shots at him any chance they got. Regardless of how we try to piece the history together, the Marauders were smart and fun kids, but they also had poor judgment. In the pensieve scene, they definitely went too far. And with the shrieking shack prank, Sirius specifically went too far.
Weeny Owl - Dec 26, 2003 2:19 pm (#280 of 2956)
I really like Hermione but I'm sure some of her teachers become exasperated with her. When she raises her hand it's one thing, but Snape warned her in PoA before he made the "insufferable know-it-all" comment. As intelligent as she is, she needs to learn that Snape can be pushed only so far before he puts his foot down.
Snape is a smart guy, but he lets his desires get in the way, and wanting to find out something about the Marauders is a good example. Sometimes he's a "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts" type of person.
He and Hermione are both too rigid in so many ways. During the first Occlumency lesson Snape was too concerned with being called "Professor" or "sir" than with taking time to explain to a frightened teenager exactly how to go about blocking thoughts. If Snape had just suspended the teacher/student protocol for a bit and let Harry ask questions, a lot of what happened might have been avoided.
There are just so many hints that could go either way as to why Snape is the way he is.
I still think he's on the side of the Order but he needs a Dale Carnegie course to go with his redemption.
SJ Rand - Dec 26, 2003 2:47 pm (#281 of 2956)
If what we saw is all there was to it, the marauders were certainly way out of line and I can fully understand a grudge that lasts even up to the present day.
A funny aspect of all this is that, being versed in dark arts, Snape would probably be one of very few students who wouldn't care that Lupin was a werewolf. It probably would have intrigued him. So would the animagus part. As to the marauders hating Snape because he was a dark arts student, well how much darker can you get than going on a monthly killing spree? Didn't stop them from befriending Lupin, who was an outcast as well.
Snape came to school as what these guys became while there: outlaws, and (it seems) they disliked Snape because he was an outlaw, which is even more ironic.
No, this still bugs me. These guys should have been friends, not enemies. Unless it all comes down to "class" (money), Snape and the marauders had more in common than Harry has with Ron.
It really doesn't add up well at all. James thinks Lupin is cool because he's a werewolf, but thinks Snape is a creep for knowing dark arts and curses? How do you rectify those two things without deciding that a big part of the puzzle is missing? If being a werewolf is cool, then casting dark curses has to be just as cool.
Weeny Owl: >>I still think he's on the side of the Order but he needs a Dale Carnegie course to go with his redemption.
I love that line.
MTW - Dec 26, 2003 7:18 pm (#282 of 2956)
I think "rule breaking" is the important divide between Snape and the Marauders. The Marauders saw their actions as a bit of harmless fun. Snape on the other hand saw them breaking rules and getting away with it because of their popularity. Something that Snape has harped on about Harry in every book. Whether the importance of rules to Snape came about through strict discipline from his father or ( near fatal ) brush with rule breaking on his own. Its the fault that would prevent any kind of friendship. Eventually leading to Snape joining the proto Death Eaters.
Marigold Evans - Dec 26, 2003 7:19 pm (#283 of 2956)
"These guys should have been friends, not enemies"
Well, look at it this way: you have Snape, who is very good at Dark Arts. You have the Marauders, who are good at other forms of magic. You have a Slytheran / Gryffindor rivalry that frequently gets out of hand. Why invite Snape into the group when you can try to best him? If you are trying to show off, a la James & Sirius, you need a worthy opponent, not just some Joe Schmo. Snape was obviously good enough to fight back against the four of them, and from the rival house to boot.
magepeachtree - Dec 26, 2003 10:23 pm (#284 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: "During the first Occlumency lesson Snape was too concerned with being called "Professor" or "sir" than with taking time to explain to a frightened teenager exactly how to go about blocking thoughts."
I think there must be something very important coming up about showing people the respect due their position. Both Dumbledore and Sirius chastise Harry for not calling Snape "Professor." DD even does it right after Sirius dies, when Harry's even more emotional and afraid. It has to be important. He definitely could have done it a better way, but we can't forget, he is Snape.
septentrion - Dec 27, 2003 4:51 am (#285 of 2956)
Marigold Evans : Why invite Snape into the group when you can try to best him?
Snape as a foil for the marauders ? why not
magepeachtree : I think there must be something very important coming up about showing people the respect due their position
I didn't think of it till now, but yes Snape is not the only one to give importance to this fact. Is it just education of young people ? I can't find any other satisfactory explanation for this. To call some one by his title doesn't make one becoming something else or makes one to appear or whatever else, if so, even DD woundn't say "Voldemort". Does I make sense ? But I don't remember Sirius telling Harry to call Snape "professor" ? Could you give the reference, please ?
Gina R Snape - Dec 27, 2003 7:06 am (#286 of 2956)
By Harry not calling him Professor Snape, it shows disrespect. The fact that he does it on an habitual basis shows that Harry has absolutely no respect for him. I think Dumbledore and many others know this, and Harry simply needs to be reminded that just because you don't like someone does not mean you don't show them respect. I think Harry will learn, in time, that there are things about Snape worth respecting. In the meantime, his lack of respect for those he dislikes has already gotten him into trouble. He was boiling in oil for Umbridge, and McGonagall reminded him (like Snape has many times) that he needs to learn how and when to keep his mouth shut. That's not mean, that's an important lesson that could come back and bite him in the behind.
Will the lack of 'Professor' before Snape bite him in the bum? Good question. It might come down to Harry failing to show respect at a crucial turning point. And I can't help but wonder how their relationship will change in book 6. Harry failed to see Snape's efforts when Dumbledore told him, and now Harry hates Snape more than ever. It could prove disastrous.
SJ Rand - Dec 27, 2003 9:25 am (#287 of 2956)
On the "call me professor or sir" thing.
When Dumbledore corrects Harry it's because Harry has said "Snape" without using his title.
When Snape corrects Harry it's because Harry dared speak a sentence without adding "professor" or "sir". That's a big difference. It's something one would expect in military "boot camp", or in addressing royalty. It's purpose is to remind the speaker of his inferior position.
You don't say "But why did he do that?". You say "But, sir, why did he do that professor Snape, sir?". Then you salute and stand at attention while waiting for an answer, preferably softly humming the school song or national anthem and getting the boot polish ready.
This isn't a reflection on Harry's attitudes, it's a reflection on Snape's attitudes. Harry and the other kids can manage to speak entire paragraphs to Dumbledore or McGonagall without using their royal title, and neither raises an eyebrow at this horrid infraction against military discipline... errr, proper addressing of superiors.
If Snape were so concerned with proper form, he'd refer to Harry by his given name or as "Mister Potter", not just "Potter". In the same lesson, Snape refers to Professor Dumbledore as just "Dumbledore". To a student. To the same student he just demanded affix his own royal title to each sentence.
Seems to me it's only his own position that he's concerned with.
Edit:
To be fair, I strongly doubt that Snape was any more pleased about needing to teach Occlumency to Harry than Harry was to have to learn it from Snape. DD, as he later admitted, messed up big time there, and I've no idea how or why he could ever think that things would have worked out any differently than the way they did.
Weeny Owl - Dec 27, 2003 11:07 am (#288 of 2956)
In Harry's defense, he has legitimate reasons for having little respect for Snape.
Dumbledore has reminded Harry more than once about referring to Snape by his title. Molly has reminded Harry about it as well (mage, I think you meant Molly and not Sirius. When Snape came to 12 Grimmauld Place about the Occlumency lessons, Molly told Harry Snape wanted a word with him, and that's when she reminded him about the "Professor Snape" thing).
Dumbledore is frequently called by his last name, so I feel he is in a class by himself as is Hagrid.
I do find it interesting that while Snape calls Ron, Harry, and Neville by their last names, he always calls Hermione "Miss Granger." I can't remember an instance where he hasn't.
I do think Snape and Harry are oil and water at this point. Neither is willing to try to understand the other person.
In many ways Harry and Snape are somewhat alike. They both have too much curiosity that gets them in trouble, they are both incredibly hard headed, and they both have problems stepping back and looking at situations rationally rather than emotionally.
I'm not sure if the outcome of the war is doing to depend on Harry and Snape learning to work together, but things might be easier for both of them if they could learn.
Little Ginny - Dec 27, 2003 12:35 pm (#289 of 2956)
I'm not really sure, but isn't all that calling the boys with surnames and girls with Miss, and saying sir to teachers very British?
Forgive me if I'm totally wrong now, but I got the impression when watching British films. But as I am neither British nor American, could someone from Britain tell me whether this would be normal adressing in school or not, please?
Weeny Owl - Dec 27, 2003 12:59 pm (#290 of 2956)
Little Ginny:
It might be, but Snape does call Ferret Boy Draco at least once that I remember.
Blast - Dec 27, 2003 7:01 pm (#291 of 2956)
Does the British school system call the males by their last names and the ladies as Miss[last name]. Growing up in the colonies, in many ways we have a British influence. In High School I had about three teachers that called the boys last name only, and the girls as Miss [last name]. Doesn't Professor McGonagal address the students in the same way. Also Harry blames Snape in part for Sirius's death. This to me is a copout on Harry's part. Snape was also a rule breaker. Sirius mentions that Snape did not mind jinxing someone if he got the chance.Lupin was not breaking the rules when he went to the shrieking shack. Snape was breaking them when he followed Lupin. Snape is stewing in his own vision of the past. I think that he was more jealous of the Mauraders popularity than at breaking the rules. What made Snape become a Death Eater in the first place? Since he knew a lot of Dark Arts maybe joining the Death Eaters was his chance to prove his talent. Snape does need to relize that Harry is not James. Sirius realizes this when Harry objects to Sirius's suggestion to come to Hogsmead in his anamagus form to meet them. Sirius tells him that the risk would of made it fun for James. Harry might look like his dad, but he is not the same person. Snape must come to terms with this and start to respect Harry and Harry must come to terms and respect Snape.
Devika - Dec 28, 2003 1:52 am (#292 of 2956)
About girls being addressed as Miss and boys by their surnames, I was reminded of a passage in 'To Sir, with love'. I'm not British myself, but in the book, the new teacher ER Braithwaite, sets some rules of conduct saying that boys will be addressed by their surnames, and girls as Miss. He also said that he will be called Sir or Mr. Braithwaite. Later he says that these are basic courtsies. I think we need not look too deep into this except that by this outlook Snape's attitude towards teaching is underlined - professional, formal, and impersonal.
SJ Rand wrote "These guys should have been friends, not enemies" I think more than anything else the main reason why Snape and the Marauders could not have been friends was that they were in Gryffindor(assumption) and Snape was in Slytherin. The traditional rivalry between the two would suffice to keep their realations antagonistic. The arrogant, rule-breaking ways of the marauders and Snape's own slimy and underhand ways wouldn't have helped their cause. Even Lily, who I assume was in Gryffindor, while protecting Snape doesn't show a sympathetic attitude towards him - more a problem with the way the marauders were treating him. I mean can we imagine Harry or any other Gryffindors being good friends with or a least not disliking a Slytherin, whatever he/she might be like. Just as Harry and Malfoy had no great reason for enimity except instinctive dislike, fuelled by subsequent incidents, so I don't think there is some great hidden reason about why there was enemity between them.
septentrion - Dec 28, 2003 6:48 am (#293 of 2956)
About Snape insisting for Harry to call him "sir" or "professor", maybe it's just because he dislikes Harry.
On another subject, Sirius assumed that Snape knew more curses when he arrived in Hogwarts than half the 7th years students (GoF, Padfoot returns). Is it that sure or could Sirius' memories be distorted by time and disliking ? Was Snape's reputation a little swollen ? I'd like your opinion about this.
magepeachtree - Dec 28, 2003 9:06 am (#294 of 2956)
You guys are right, I got Harry's surrogate parental figures all mixed up. It was starting to get late, I apologize.
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 9:45 am (#295 of 2956)
I don't think we know that all the marauders were in Gryffindor. We don't even know that Snape was a Slytherin. It seems to be a good basic assumption, but from things said in the series, especially OotP, I wouldn't be surprised if Pettigrew was a (bumbling) Hufflepuff, and Sirius a Slytherin. Sirius not only came from a long line of pureblood dark wizards, but had a very pronounced dark side himself.
I'd also guess that the prejudice against Slytherin wasn't quite as great in those pre-Voldemort days. One of the things used to run down Slytherin is that most of Voldemort's supporters came from that house, but that hadn't happened yet.
James seems to have been drawn to "sport" and malicious "fun". A stereo-typical rich kid brat in love with breaking rules and going against the norm. I don't think he'd have cared that someone who could add to his rule breaking party was in Slytherin. That could even have made it more fun, especially if it shocked his house mates.
Again, back to the "call me sir..." bit.
This is a selective application of insisting on proper respect. He tells Harry to show him respect, but minutes later when Harry says "Professor Dumbledore says his name (Voldemort's)", Snape replies "Dumbledore is an extemely powerful wizard".
Not "professor Dumbledore", or "Headmaster Dumbledore", just "Dumbledore". If he's trying to re-enforce proper respect, then he should have said "Professor Dumbledore". Since he didn't, his concern is shown to be with getting respect for himself, not teaching Harry to be respectful.
Madame Librarian - Dec 28, 2003 11:40 am (#296 of 2956)
For what it's worth, here is Snape's bio from the Lexicon:
Snape attended Hogwarts in the 1970s as a Slytherin, and was in the same year as Gryffindors James Potter, Sirius Black, and Remus Lupin.
And, if you check the Death Eater thread, post #63, here, Wendelin paraphrases from GoF that Sirius describes Snape as part of a "gang of Slytherins."
So, if we accept that as two sources, one canon, one well researched, I think we can say that Snape was a Slytherin. Now, I'm not sure I have time to dig for the exact quote about Snape from GoF, but I'll get to it when I can. Unless, of course, someone can find it or knows where it is exactly already (mucho thanks if you do).
Ciao. Barb
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 11:50 am (#297 of 2956)
Madame Librarian: "Snape as part of a 'gang of Slytherins' "
I am curious to see Snape in a pal kind of situation. I hope book 6 brings us more background on him. Does he have any friends??? Did he have school pals? He doesnt seem to have a crabbe and goyle-like entourage in the pensieve. Curious....
lisa
septentrion - Dec 28, 2003 12:02 pm (#298 of 2956)
Madam Librarian, the Sirius' quote you're looking for is "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters", Gof, Padfoot returns, p 531 american paperback edition.
Madame Librarian - Dec 28, 2003 12:12 pm (#299 of 2956)
Thanks, Septentrion!
Ciao. Barb
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 12:31 pm (#300 of 2956)
Thanks, Barb. That corrects my saying that we don't know Snape was Slytherin, since we do (or now I do too).
ElfWorks and septentrion's posts also shoot down the "quiet loner" and "follows the rules" theories expressed earlier.
The marauders could have been a "rival gang" to that Slytherin gang, and that horrid pensieve scene could have been revenge for something that happened earlier, just as an urban street gang might beat up a member of another gang for something that happened hours or days before. As far as we know, these two groups could have been trading curses since they got to Hogwarts.
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Blast - Dec 28, 2003 1:01 pm (#301 of 2956)
Is Snape related to the Malfoys? If we see the way he addresses Draco it seems like more an uncle would. Maybe Snape is Draco's Godfather.
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 1:29 pm (#302 of 2956)
I can't believe I go away for a day and half and come back to such activity! I'm thrilled.
As pure conjecture, I think Harry would have noticed in the pensieve scene if Snape was wearing robes from any other house besides Slytherin.
In reference to the 'sir' thing, Snape always seems to directly call Dumbledore 'Headmaster.' Perhaps there is in his mind different etiqutte in speaking to someone and referencing them.
No doubt, there are some deeply psychological games going on with his choice of words. He referred to Harry as 'Mr Potter' in their first class. Thereafter, it's always 'Potter.' Yet, he has referred to Draco as 'Draco' or 'Mr Malfoy' but I can't remember a time when he referes to him as simply 'Malfoy.'
Other people, though, remind Harry that Snape should be referred to as 'Professor Snape' as someone else pointed out. That is what I had in mind regarding Harry's attitude.
On another note, Lupin was not rulebreaking by going to the Shrieking Shack. But Snape did not know that. It was, however, suspicious activity seeing as how he was a werewolf.
I should think the Marauders thought Lupin being a werewolf was 'cool' in a sense only because Lupin was a nice guy and loaths his werewolf side. If Lupin revelled in monthly killing sprees and his animal side, they would have had nothing to do with him.
Also, I don't think the Marauders' and Snape era were pre-Voldemort. I think they were smack in the middle of it, as Harry's parents were killed at the height of his power. Since they were very recently out of school, it stands to reason that the Dark Lord was gaining power whilst Snape, Lupin, Black, Pettigrew and Potter were in school.
Oh, yes, and I was ready to fall into my book during the Sirius' family tree scene. After the Malfoys showed up, I was dying waiting to see if Snape was on there as well.
Blast - Dec 28, 2003 2:05 pm (#303 of 2956)
Did not Voldemort begin his rise for power in the early seventies? Now to mention it around the same time that Dumbledore became Headmaster at Hogwarts.One thing eles about Snape, if he was part vampire, he would not of been a pureblood. Not being a pureblood, I don't think that he would of had any friends in Sltherin. They would of thought that he would of been unworthy of being there. Even though Tom Riddle was part Muggle, having Slytherin's blood in him would of made him the exception, plus Riddle was a powerful Wizard maybe fear motivated them. I can't see Snape making people fear him when the Marauders could handle him so.
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 2:34 pm (#304 of 2956)
Gina >>I think Harry would have noticed in the pensieve scene if Snape was wearing robes from any other house besides Slytherin.
Don't all the students wear black robes for class?
>I should think the Marauders thought Lupin being a werewolf was 'cool' in a sense only because Lupin was a nice guy and loaths his werewolf side.
That's possible, but they could also have been drawn by the fact that he became a monster once a month. I find some of the reactions of students in Harry Era Hogwarts a bit unrealistic. Many of the times the students are horrified over something, real eleven to sixteen year olds would either not care very much or would think it was sort of cool.
For example I can more see them sneaking to the corridor where the first Heir attack took place to have a peek then stay away out of fright. When Harry was proclaimed a lunatic by the Daily Prophet, I'd more expect the students to point and laugh, or just ignore him, then cast frightened sidelong glances and shy away. Perhaps some teenage posters here can correct me or back me up based on their own experiences?
>Also, I don't think the Marauders' and Snape era were pre-Voldemort. I think they were smack in the middle of it, as Harry's parents were killed at the height of his power. Since they were very recently out of school, it stands to reason that the Dark Lord was gaining power whilst Snape, Lupin, Black, Pettigrew and Potter were in school.
You're right, but I don't think he'd "revealed" himself for what he was yet. In OotP, Sirius said something about how, when his younger brother joined the DEs, folks knew about the pureblood stuff but not "how far" Voldemort was willing to go.
If his brother joined at seventeen, the marauders would have been done with school. If the brother joined as young as fifteen, it would still be after the "worst memory" scene.
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 7:11 pm (#305 of 2956)
Rand, that's a very good point about Voldemort not showing his true colours until the very end.
The kids do wear clothing that shows their house. Otherwise, Ron and Harry would not have needed Crabbe and Goyle's robes in CoS.
Oh, hang on a minute, they did need them for size. But anyway, their house crest is on their robes.
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 7:25 pm (#306 of 2956)
Wait..... they dont know which house they are going to be in when they buy them in diagon alley..... where did the crest come from?
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 7:39 pm (#307 of 2956)
Maybe they magically appear after the sorting ceremony. Or maybe the house elves put them on or something. I don't know. Drat! But I am certain there is a way to differentiate the kids in different houses.
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 7:53 pm (#308 of 2956)
This is going to make me nuts now.....
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 8:31 pm (#309 of 2956)
Yeah, me too...
I wonder if Snape could be the head of Slytherin house if he wasn't a Slytherin as a student.
Marie E. - Dec 28, 2003 9:49 pm (#310 of 2956)
I know that the movies aren't canon, but they show the kids wearing generic Hogwarts crests on the Hogwarts Express and then they suddenly have the proper House crests the next day. I always thought the house elves snuck in during the night and sewed the proper badges on, sort of like the brownie story.
Peregrine - Dec 29, 2003 8:47 am (#311 of 2956)
I know this is going back quite a few posts (I had 52 to catch up on), but regarding Lily defending Snape because he was weak?. What if she wasn?t really defending Snape? What if she just saw it as an opportunity to yell at James for something? I?m wondering, if it had been someone else attacking Snape, would have said anything (notice she tears James apart and pretty much ignores Sirius)? I guess what I?m saying is that I like the idea of Snape being as strong (just not as fast) as the Marauders and it?s plausible that Lily had ulterior motives in defending him.
SJ Rand - Dec 29, 2003 9:56 am (#312 of 2956)
House crests. Odd, but I can't remember them being referenced. On the other hand, Harry does always seem to know exactly what house the student he's looking at comes from, even when they're strangers to him and he doesn't know their names. Or is that just Rowling doing a brief switch from third person limited to third person omniscient?
Edit: Wait a second. In CoS, while polyjuiced, Ron and Harry didn't know that the girl who they asked directions from to the Slytherin dormatory was a Ravenclaw.
Peregrine: >>I guess what I'm saying is that I like the idea of Snape being as strong (just not as fast) as the Marauders...
Take heart. The memory we saw had Snape there alone while all of the marauders were present. Gang verses gang "warfare" would allow the rival gang to take advantage of getting at someone when their "backup" wasn't around. Last week Snape may have hit Sirius with a jellylegs curse when Sirius was alone and Snape was with the Slytherins.
Gina R Snape - Dec 29, 2003 10:17 am (#313 of 2956)
I am definitely going to have to add this (house crest) to the list of questions for JKR if I ever get to meet her...
Rand, true it is entirely possible that Snape and his gang hit Sirius with a curse a week before. That is a scene I would like to see.
In truth, I would very much like to see a young Snape in action. Particularly pre-redeemed death eater Snape. I'm dying to see just how despicable deeds he did before reforming. The worse the better.
Joanna S Lupin - Dec 29, 2003 10:42 am (#314 of 2956)
About the crest: in CoS Harry thought Tom Riddle a decent boy, I don't suppose he would have trusted him if he noticed that Riddle was a Slytherin, I think there are no crests at all, just movie-makers idea
Blast - Dec 29, 2003 4:39 pm (#315 of 2956)
Does not the letter tell Harry to get plain black workrobes. I do not think that the books mention a house crest anywhere.
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 29, 2003 7:45 pm (#316 of 2956)
When Riddle entered Dippet's office in "The Very Secret Diary" chapter of CoS, Harry sees a prefect badge pinned on Tom's chest. In OotP, Ron's badge is described as having a large P superimposed on the Gryffindor lion. Even if Riddle's robe did not reveal his house, his badge should have.
Devika - Dec 30, 2003 8:34 am (#317 of 2956)
I guess that could be put down to a lapse on Harry's part. After all, in the memory he had a lot more to see and it isn't hard to imagine that he would have missed that part of the badge. Anyway, I still think that the crests were a movie thing. They were probably to make a drab plain black cloak look more 'school-uniformish' and give it some more colour...
magepeachtree - Dec 30, 2003 7:52 pm (#318 of 2956)
I thought they had crests on their robes too, but now that I think about it, in CoS Harry and Ron mistake Percy's girl friend, the Ravenclaw Prefect (can't recall her name just now), for a Slytherin. They may just have been nervous, but wouldn't they have thought to look for a crest on her robes?
Madam Poppy - Dec 30, 2003 8:04 pm (#319 of 2956)
Could the crest on her robes just been covered with her hair? I know the girl in the movie had long hair.
magepeachtree - Dec 30, 2003 8:42 pm (#320 of 2956)
That's a possibility, but you would think that if there were house crests on their robes, that would be the perfect time to mention it. Harry or Ron could have said, "Oh, we should have looked at her robes," or, "I wish her hair wasn't covering her house crest."
Gina R Snape - Dec 30, 2003 8:45 pm (#321 of 2956)
Maybe it was "evil curly hair" that distracted them!
But seriously. There must be a way for teachers to tell what houses students are in. It's inconcievable to me that any professor could on sight remember 1,000 students and which houses they are in.
Devika - Dec 31, 2003 2:21 am (#322 of 2956)
Gina, I'm not entirely sure if it's that difficult for teachers to remember a student's house. It seems that on an average there are 10 students per year per house or even less. If a teacher takes a certain class, it shouldn't be too difficult to memorise a dozen names in a week. I assume that they would already be familiar with the older students' houses. There would be no need for house crests in such a scenario. I study in a class of almost 60 people, and all our teachers knew our names by the end of a week. At any rate, HP is a magical world, so I guess they could simply be using magic to remember names!
Blast - Dec 31, 2003 3:14 am (#323 of 2956)
D on't forget that these are not ordinary teachers. Um bridge on the otherhand must ask some of the students their names.
Gina R Snape - Dec 31, 2003 6:56 am (#324 of 2956)
I don't want to extend this thread over number of students because there is a thread to debate this. But in a nutshell, JKR has said there are 1000 students at Hogwarts, which means 250 per house, so that would average to 35 students per year per house for 140 new students a year total. While a agree that these teachers are for the most part seasoned and probably have magically enhanced memories, I know for myself that it seems to take me forever to remember students' names--except those who stand out. I would never be able to remember all those students names AND houses. I can imagine a few other professors would have that problem as well.
Well, now it's going to bug me to no end regarding this subject of the house crests! But I still think Snape is such a quintessential Slytherin that there's no way he could have been in any other house.
Devika - Jan 1, 2004 12:01 am (#325 of 2956)
Gina... thanks for getting this thread back to Snape!
Blast - Jan 1, 2004 8:46 am (#326 of 2956)
I don't know about Snape being in Slytherin he has many qualities that would place him in other houses. I bet the Sorting Hat spent a bit of time on his head before it placed him.
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 10:35 am (#327 of 2956)
Well, I could see him being a Ravenclaw, but he's just too sly in my opinion. And he'd never tolerate being placed in Gryffindor!
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 11:38 am (#328 of 2956)
Or MAYBE.... Snape wanted to be a Gryffindor really really bad and he wasnt sorted there and that's yet another reason he loathes them all, to a man.
Just a thought....
xo
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:08 pm (#329 of 2956)
ElfWorks, go back a bit on this thread and read posts #295 through 298. We pretty much settled the fact that Snape was in Slytherin with both canon fact and with through his bio on the Lexicon. Hope this helps with creating more ideas about our dear Professor of Potions.
Ciao. Barb
Edit: here's a link to #295: click here
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 2:21 pm (#330 of 2956)
Yes, Madame Librarian, I understand that he was a Slytherin. I have no doubt about it. I was just saying... maybe he WANTED to be a Griff. This might account, in small part, for his outrageous loathing of all things Gryffindor.
lisa
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:42 pm (#331 of 2956)
Barb, I think ElfWorks is debating his wants, not his actual house.
And, well, I suppose it's possible he wanted to be in Gryffindor. But, wouldn't the sorting hat put him there if he really wanted it? After all, it is our choices...
The question is, why would he want to be in Gryffindor? Sure, some of the spying stuff he's doing now is brave. But he does it all in a very Slytherin way---behind the scenes and such. Gryffindors rush in where others fear to tread. They are certainly seen as the heroes by JKR and to some extent within the wizarding world I suppose. Does Snape want to be the hero in the limelight? I don't think so. I think he wants credit and appreciation and admiration and respect. But I don't think he wants the kind of flash the Gryffindor Marauders had. Unfortunately, we don't know enough about Snape as a child. But it does seem the attention he got wasn't positive. So, I can't imagine he'd want any more attention as a youth.
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:42 pm (#332 of 2956)
Aaah, sorry for misinterpreting. I am not reading things carefully today; for some strange reason I had a late night last night. (Yawn.)
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:45 pm (#333 of 2956)
Yippee, I get to be post 333! Half the way there...
Can't imagine why you are feeling tired today... I wonder what wizards do on New Year's.
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 2:47 pm (#334 of 2956)
Madame, I do indeed understand! Eggnog and champagne can do that to me. uh you i mean!
xo
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:49 pm (#335 of 2956)
They probably have an incredibly effective potion for hangovers, another one for upset tummies, and a third comparable to muggle No-Doz of all-nighter fame. Another argument in support of how important a good Potions Master can be.
OK, sorry, enough off-topic stuff (well, Snape is indirectly mentioned).
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:55 pm (#336 of 2956)
Well, on the Potions thread there was a very brief discussion about how potions don't seem to be that widely used in the wizarding world. I think they are difficult and at times very inconvenient to make. Snape talks to Harry about not being subtle. Potions making requires a certain set of skills which tells us a lot about Snape's character I think.
septentrion - Jan 2, 2004 11:31 am (#337 of 2956)
at least, potions making requires patience, concentration and precision. About potions (I haven't read the potions thread yet), I think that the most useful potions can be purchased already done, and that would be another reason why they don't seem to be used that much.
HP Fan - Jan 2, 2004 12:12 pm (#338 of 2956)
This thread - you leave it for a few days and wow it takes off like a rocket. Sorry to take the discussion back a little bit but I would like to throw my two knuts worth into the cauldron and see what you think of it.
On the issue of Harry using Snape's name without the Professor tag. At my school there were certain teachers who me and my friend when amongst ourselves would call purely by their surname, not because we didn't respect them, in many cases it was the exact opposite. We like and respected them a lot, they were those particular type of teachers who treat you as equals who you can have a really good laugh with and who where well known to be really laid back out of school hours ie school holiday etc. Yet at the same time you know exactly how far you can go with them, where they personally drew the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. However hen we were talking about them to another teacher we wouldn't have dreamed of referring to them as anything except Mr,Mrs. or Miss __________. I think DD's correction of Harry is in a way a little reminder that it's not really the correct thing to refer to another teacher by their surname only in front of a staff member least of all the Headmaster. Snape's insistance of having Sir or Professor included in each sentence Harry speaks is a little example of someone having power/position over another person and loving the feeling it gives them. He's reinforcing his position as teacher, and Harry's as pupil, just when it's not needed.
Another valid point is how Snape refers to DD just by his surname in front of Harry, one thing that has struck me through out the whole series is the way teachers refer to each other in front of students. There are numerous occasions where one or another refers to another staff member by their first name or just by their surname. Something that's not normal practise really in schools. If ever a pupil was present in a classroom, anytime staff referred to one another, made and enquiry or anything like that they always used Mr or Mrs. _________ rather than first names. [I keep leaving blanks as you can fill them with any particular name you wish your own or that of one of your favorite/most hated teachers.] Snape's use of ' Dumbledore' rather than ' Professor Dumbledore' is normal in that particular light. McGonagall refer's to Mad Eye Moody as plain Moody in front of a hall full of students and calls Professor Trelawany 'Sybil' on a number of occasions [after the first Divination lesson, at Christmas in PoA and in OoP in front of a hall full of students. Even Dumbledore refers to McGonagall as Minerva on several occasions in front of students and to Snape as Severus Snape in front of Harry, after correcting him for saying Snape instead of Professor Snape. Yes Snape might have been wiser to enforce his point about respect through the use of Professor Dumbledore rather than plain Dumbledore but to him it would have been an entirely normal way for him to refer to Dumbledore. The use of surnames and first names alone in front of students seems normal on the Wizarding world.
Someone I can't remember who was asking about the practise of calling male students by their surnames and female students by Miss ________. It's not so much practise in schools now but at some Private schools and in the Victorian times up to the fifties possibly later it was common practise. Jugging by things relatives have said and other books I have read, I think it's part of the Wizarding World's oldy worldy feel the same as the use of quills etc.
Well I'm not sure whether that has helped or just confused people - I'm never sure whether or not I'm making sense. Or expressing things clearly enough.
Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2004 12:24 pm (#339 of 2956)
You've expressed yourself perfectly well HPFan.
I half wonder if JKR was making a power point with Snape but didn't even think about him referring to DD without the "Professor." Maybe she has a general rule of conduct in her head but 'slips' in her own writing. Nevertheless, regardless of what the teachers call each other, they are peers. The students should remember they are students in the presence of their professors.
Edit: Egads, that must be my inner Snape emerging today!
SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 12:24 pm (#340 of 2956)
The only problem I have with Snape's call me sir line, is that Harry had spoken all of one word to him. I mean, we're not even talking about an entire sentence.
In painfully full context:
He paused outside the door when he reached it, wishing he were almost anywhere else, then, taking a deep breath, he knocked and entered.
The shadowy room was lined with shelves bearing hundreds of glass jars in which slimy bits of animals and plants were suspended in variously coloured potions. In one corner stood the cupboard full of ingredients that Snape had once accused Harry - not without reason - of robbing. Harry's attention was drawn towards the desk, however, where a shallow stone basin engraved with runes and symbols lay in a pool of candlelight. Harry recognised it at once - it was Dumbledore's Pensieve. Wondering what on earth it was doing there, he jumped when Snape's cold voice came out of the shadows.
'Shut the door behind you, Potter.'
Harry did as he was told, with the horrible feeling that he was imprisoning himself. When he turned back into the room, Snape had moved into the light and was pointing silently at the chair opposite his desk. Harry sat down and so did Snape, his cold black eyes fixed unblinkingly upon Harry, dislike etched in every line of his face.
'Well, Potter, you know why you are here', he said. 'The Headmaster has asked me to teach you Occlumency. I can only hope that you prove more adept at it than at Potions.'
'Right', said Harry tersely.
'This may not be an ordinary class, Potter', said Snape, his eyes narrowed malevolently, 'but I am still your teacher and you will therefore call me "sir" or "Professor" at all times.'
There's respect, and then there's brow beating. This is an example of the later.
Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2004 3:44 pm (#341 of 2956)
I don't disagree he went a bit far with the "Sir" thing in this scene. But actually, this particular exchange was not inappropriate to me. Occlumency was an unusual 'class' for Harry. Mental boundaries were literally crossed. Snape did not want Harry to get too comfortable (as if that were possible!) in their exchanges and forget where he was or who he was with. Snape was trying to set the tone here, and I don't object to it. Now, later on when he interrupts Harry for forgetting to say Sir, it did go a bit overboard. But then, that's our Severus...
SJ Rand - Jan 3, 2004 8:15 am (#342 of 2956)
The "problem" that I have with it is that he eventually tells Harry that the mind must be cleared and relaxed with no emotions cluttering it up. But he sets the stage by provoking Harry.
Slight side track: First Snape tells Harry that Occlumency uses the same force as (or similar to?) resisting an Imperious. Then he says that Harry must be free of emotion.
Okay, first off the times we see Harry resist an Imperious curse he's far from emotion free. When he resists Voldemort in he graveyard, he's quite angry.
Next, controlling emotions and learning Occlumency would really have to be two different exercises. I don't see how it's possible to be relaxed and emotionless while even a friend is looking at thoughts you'd rather not share with others. Unless you've first had a lot of training at repressing your emotions, just the learning process alone is going to cause annoyance, embarrassment, frustration, and so on.
Last, if elimination of emotions is the key, how does Snape do it? He's not exactly Mister Spock himself, is he?
Another last, wouldn't Voldemort become just a tiny little bit suspicious when one of his usually agitated and fearful supporters, or a prisoner, suddenly goes all Vulcan on him during questioning? "Oh, you're an Occlumens, are you? Crucio!"
Edit:
How does a person stay emotionless while they're asleep? I kind of thought that emotions were what dreams are all about.
Weeny Owl - Jan 3, 2004 10:46 am (#343 of 2956)
Snape said, "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."
That doesn't mean Snape would be emotionless in Voldie's presence, but he would be able to shut down certain feelings so that he could convince Voldie he's telling the truth.
As for the dreams, I think someone who has mastered Occlumency wouldn't need to worry about emotions in dreams because the mind would be blocked against intrusion. It's analogy time: I see Legilimency as the sun and Occlumency as the sunglasses... without them, you're vulnerable but with them you're protected. That doesn't mean you won't know the sun is there or feel it, but that you will have the protection you need so that it won't be a problem. Maybe an umbrella and rain. Regardless, the protection is there.
Snape said, "I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for this..."
Similar powers to the Imperius Curse but not necessarily the exact same powers. Here's another analogy... Harry can paint using watercolors as the medium but cannot quite master using oils. There are similar techniques in painting, but there are still differences in how a painter goes about achieving the wanted effect.
Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 11:19 am (#344 of 2956)
Yes, I think the key word here is resistance. Harry would not let Crouch!Moody control his mind and body. In the same way, perhaps Occlumency is about controlling what thoughts and feelings can be found.
I actually wrote a piece of fanfic exploring this topic. Let me see if I can make it G-rated enough to post here as a way of explaining how I think occlumency works. It is a scene where Snape is giving Tonks Occlumency lessons and she puts up some resistance regarding what memories and feelings he can see, and influences about what she wants him to find out.
Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 8:33 pm (#345 of 2956)
Ok, I did not get to my fic this weekend. So, no further discussion of occlumency from me (and now that I think about it, this isn't the right thread for that anyway, but I digress...) But a friend just pointed me to this analysis of Snape on mugglenet and I am bursting, I tell you. bursting!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ok, I really wish I were done with my blasted syllabus already, because I want to tear apart every section. But anyway, I trust someone here will pick up on some of the exciting debate and bring it over!
Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 9:14 pm (#346 of 2956)
Ok. I see the 'edit' button has a timer on it. I thought once you were in mid-edit, you had time. Oh well. Anyway...
Ok, I've just finished reading the whole thing. And a few very quick thoughts came to mind--
Snape jinxed the DADA position? Completely brilliant!!!!!!
Snape helped Harry in the GoF scene outside DD's office? I have been struggling and struggling for a way to interpret that scene in a positive light for Snape. Now I have got one!!!!!
Confession time---although I do strongly believe that Snape is 100% on Dumbledore's side and will do something visibly and indisputably spectacular by the end of the series, I would not be entirely disappointed if he was a 'true Slytherin' and took care of himself first. But only if he did it with style. I know, it's terrible. I can't help it. I'm just so smitten...
Julia. - Jan 4, 2004 10:14 pm (#347 of 2956)
Gina, I love the new avatar, although I have to admit your old one was pretty cool as well. After spending all day slogging through over 900 Snape posts, I want to join the Detention's With Snape Club
Caput Draconis - Jan 5, 2004 2:16 am (#348 of 2956)
Well I like nothing more than a good Snape-a-thon, especially when it's drawn direct from JKR like that one. I enjoyed it a lot.
Now...I like the connection with the Quiddich World Cup (QWC) that reveals specific similarities between DE muggle torture and Snape's worst memory. I don't think that 'one' was Severus, at least not motivated by his usual bitterness toward James. I'm just not sure the connection is strong enough - maybe if that random muggle was James' long lost cousin, or something. What it does do for me is further knock James off his pedestal. It's not Snape, as most would expect, who is in the position that paralells the DEs, but Harry's dad.
But that gets you thinking about Lucius and Snape. Malfoy was leading that group of DE's at the QWC, and we know that Snape at least maintains the illusion of friendship with him. To be a friend of Lucius, a 'lap-dog' even, I would think that you couldn't deny him too many times. So how many times can Snape excuse himself if his DE 'buddies' want to go muggle baiting? Surely he'd avoid any situation where one of Malfoy's schemes involved murder/torture, but does he have to participate on some level to stay in the evil loop?
I think one of my favourite things in this whole crazy Harry world is endless discussion on The Sudden Movement (TSM). I certainly don't think Snape was worried about Harry implicating him after Lucius. The author of Gina's link dismisses the fact Snape shows his Dark Mark (best scene ever, btw) when supporting this theory, saying that having Harry say Snape's name would negate any brownie points he earns by coming forward himself, thus he moves to shut Harry up. I reckon TSM is about silencing Harry, not for himself or Lucius (who everyone knows was a DE, imperioed or not), but for Harry's own benifit. We know that Snape, in his own way, has protected Harry throughout the books (like the list at the link lists ). Snape may be considering the fact that Harry is putting himself in danger by revealing all he knows about the DEs, in case it leaks and some loyal follower takes it upon themselves to shut Potter's mouth permanently. Snape knows better than anyone how ruthless followers of Voldemort can be in carrying out their master's orders.
I don't know about that scene outside DD's office - I'd need to reread it. I'm not sure there needs to be a way to paint Snape in a positive light, we know that sometimes the man can be plain vindictive. But in light of what Harry said? I'l have to reread, but 'helping' seemed a bit of a stretch.
Snape jinxing the DADA position completely floated my boat, love it to death. So Slytherin. Which brings us to the last passage of that editorial, which I think we'd do well to keep in mind at all times when we discuss Severus - he is perhaps the ultimate Slytherin...
That was super fun. Have at it.
Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2004 11:36 am (#349 of 2956)
I enjoyed the treatise very much. It's a great example of how a teensy, itsy-bitsy, ickle shift in perspective can shed a whole new light onto some relatively innocent phrases or actions. Snape, along with good ol' Autnie Pet, is one of the most enigmatic characters in the epic. One minute I'm sure he's truly DE, spying for Voldie; another minute I'm equally sure it's the other way 'round. Then I throw up my arms in complete dismay and say he's both at once and he's an absolute genius at it!
Is there any possibility that those potions he's so good at have something to do with keeping anyone who he wants the dark? I know there are virtually no scenes that I recall where Snape offers a pick-me-up to any visitors (except his anti-werewolf draught for Lupin), but I'm just taking a wild stab here. Is this why DD keeps Snape as Potions Master rather than "promoting" him to DADA?
Ooooh, I just thought of something odd--Snape never dines with Staff at Hogwarts (even though he sits as table, he looks at the food distastefully and scowls a lot), and refuses to join the meals at the 12GP. There are pointed moments when he awkwardly begs off from doing so. Isn't there a bit of his introductory description to that effect (always eats on his own down in his dungeon office--paraphrase here)? Is it there something to that? Something to do with the food? Something to do with something in the food? I have gone overboard here, I think.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Jan 5, 2004 11:41 am (#350 of 2956)
Snape does have Christmas dinner with everyone in PoA. That's when he pulls the cracker with Dumbledore and the stuffed vulture hat appears. I always thought that was something Dumbledore had planned to tease Snape about being Neville's Gran in the boggart scene.
Is Snape related to the Malfoys? If we see the way he addresses Draco it seems like more an uncle would. Maybe Snape is Draco's Godfather.
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 1:29 pm (#302 of 2956)
I can't believe I go away for a day and half and come back to such activity! I'm thrilled.
As pure conjecture, I think Harry would have noticed in the pensieve scene if Snape was wearing robes from any other house besides Slytherin.
In reference to the 'sir' thing, Snape always seems to directly call Dumbledore 'Headmaster.' Perhaps there is in his mind different etiqutte in speaking to someone and referencing them.
No doubt, there are some deeply psychological games going on with his choice of words. He referred to Harry as 'Mr Potter' in their first class. Thereafter, it's always 'Potter.' Yet, he has referred to Draco as 'Draco' or 'Mr Malfoy' but I can't remember a time when he referes to him as simply 'Malfoy.'
Other people, though, remind Harry that Snape should be referred to as 'Professor Snape' as someone else pointed out. That is what I had in mind regarding Harry's attitude.
On another note, Lupin was not rulebreaking by going to the Shrieking Shack. But Snape did not know that. It was, however, suspicious activity seeing as how he was a werewolf.
I should think the Marauders thought Lupin being a werewolf was 'cool' in a sense only because Lupin was a nice guy and loaths his werewolf side. If Lupin revelled in monthly killing sprees and his animal side, they would have had nothing to do with him.
Also, I don't think the Marauders' and Snape era were pre-Voldemort. I think they were smack in the middle of it, as Harry's parents were killed at the height of his power. Since they were very recently out of school, it stands to reason that the Dark Lord was gaining power whilst Snape, Lupin, Black, Pettigrew and Potter were in school.
Oh, yes, and I was ready to fall into my book during the Sirius' family tree scene. After the Malfoys showed up, I was dying waiting to see if Snape was on there as well.
Blast - Dec 28, 2003 2:05 pm (#303 of 2956)
Did not Voldemort begin his rise for power in the early seventies? Now to mention it around the same time that Dumbledore became Headmaster at Hogwarts.One thing eles about Snape, if he was part vampire, he would not of been a pureblood. Not being a pureblood, I don't think that he would of had any friends in Sltherin. They would of thought that he would of been unworthy of being there. Even though Tom Riddle was part Muggle, having Slytherin's blood in him would of made him the exception, plus Riddle was a powerful Wizard maybe fear motivated them. I can't see Snape making people fear him when the Marauders could handle him so.
SJ Rand - Dec 28, 2003 2:34 pm (#304 of 2956)
Gina >>I think Harry would have noticed in the pensieve scene if Snape was wearing robes from any other house besides Slytherin.
Don't all the students wear black robes for class?
>I should think the Marauders thought Lupin being a werewolf was 'cool' in a sense only because Lupin was a nice guy and loaths his werewolf side.
That's possible, but they could also have been drawn by the fact that he became a monster once a month. I find some of the reactions of students in Harry Era Hogwarts a bit unrealistic. Many of the times the students are horrified over something, real eleven to sixteen year olds would either not care very much or would think it was sort of cool.
For example I can more see them sneaking to the corridor where the first Heir attack took place to have a peek then stay away out of fright. When Harry was proclaimed a lunatic by the Daily Prophet, I'd more expect the students to point and laugh, or just ignore him, then cast frightened sidelong glances and shy away. Perhaps some teenage posters here can correct me or back me up based on their own experiences?
>Also, I don't think the Marauders' and Snape era were pre-Voldemort. I think they were smack in the middle of it, as Harry's parents were killed at the height of his power. Since they were very recently out of school, it stands to reason that the Dark Lord was gaining power whilst Snape, Lupin, Black, Pettigrew and Potter were in school.
You're right, but I don't think he'd "revealed" himself for what he was yet. In OotP, Sirius said something about how, when his younger brother joined the DEs, folks knew about the pureblood stuff but not "how far" Voldemort was willing to go.
If his brother joined at seventeen, the marauders would have been done with school. If the brother joined as young as fifteen, it would still be after the "worst memory" scene.
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 7:11 pm (#305 of 2956)
Rand, that's a very good point about Voldemort not showing his true colours until the very end.
The kids do wear clothing that shows their house. Otherwise, Ron and Harry would not have needed Crabbe and Goyle's robes in CoS.
Oh, hang on a minute, they did need them for size. But anyway, their house crest is on their robes.
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 7:25 pm (#306 of 2956)
Wait..... they dont know which house they are going to be in when they buy them in diagon alley..... where did the crest come from?
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 7:39 pm (#307 of 2956)
Maybe they magically appear after the sorting ceremony. Or maybe the house elves put them on or something. I don't know. Drat! But I am certain there is a way to differentiate the kids in different houses.
ElfWorks - Dec 28, 2003 7:53 pm (#308 of 2956)
This is going to make me nuts now.....
xo
Gina R Snape - Dec 28, 2003 8:31 pm (#309 of 2956)
Yeah, me too...
I wonder if Snape could be the head of Slytherin house if he wasn't a Slytherin as a student.
Marie E. - Dec 28, 2003 9:49 pm (#310 of 2956)
I know that the movies aren't canon, but they show the kids wearing generic Hogwarts crests on the Hogwarts Express and then they suddenly have the proper House crests the next day. I always thought the house elves snuck in during the night and sewed the proper badges on, sort of like the brownie story.
Peregrine - Dec 29, 2003 8:47 am (#311 of 2956)
I know this is going back quite a few posts (I had 52 to catch up on), but regarding Lily defending Snape because he was weak?. What if she wasn?t really defending Snape? What if she just saw it as an opportunity to yell at James for something? I?m wondering, if it had been someone else attacking Snape, would have said anything (notice she tears James apart and pretty much ignores Sirius)? I guess what I?m saying is that I like the idea of Snape being as strong (just not as fast) as the Marauders and it?s plausible that Lily had ulterior motives in defending him.
SJ Rand - Dec 29, 2003 9:56 am (#312 of 2956)
House crests. Odd, but I can't remember them being referenced. On the other hand, Harry does always seem to know exactly what house the student he's looking at comes from, even when they're strangers to him and he doesn't know their names. Or is that just Rowling doing a brief switch from third person limited to third person omniscient?
Edit: Wait a second. In CoS, while polyjuiced, Ron and Harry didn't know that the girl who they asked directions from to the Slytherin dormatory was a Ravenclaw.
Peregrine: >>I guess what I'm saying is that I like the idea of Snape being as strong (just not as fast) as the Marauders...
Take heart. The memory we saw had Snape there alone while all of the marauders were present. Gang verses gang "warfare" would allow the rival gang to take advantage of getting at someone when their "backup" wasn't around. Last week Snape may have hit Sirius with a jellylegs curse when Sirius was alone and Snape was with the Slytherins.
Gina R Snape - Dec 29, 2003 10:17 am (#313 of 2956)
I am definitely going to have to add this (house crest) to the list of questions for JKR if I ever get to meet her...
Rand, true it is entirely possible that Snape and his gang hit Sirius with a curse a week before. That is a scene I would like to see.
In truth, I would very much like to see a young Snape in action. Particularly pre-redeemed death eater Snape. I'm dying to see just how despicable deeds he did before reforming. The worse the better.
Joanna S Lupin - Dec 29, 2003 10:42 am (#314 of 2956)
About the crest: in CoS Harry thought Tom Riddle a decent boy, I don't suppose he would have trusted him if he noticed that Riddle was a Slytherin, I think there are no crests at all, just movie-makers idea
Blast - Dec 29, 2003 4:39 pm (#315 of 2956)
Does not the letter tell Harry to get plain black workrobes. I do not think that the books mention a house crest anywhere.
I Am Used Vlad - Dec 29, 2003 7:45 pm (#316 of 2956)
When Riddle entered Dippet's office in "The Very Secret Diary" chapter of CoS, Harry sees a prefect badge pinned on Tom's chest. In OotP, Ron's badge is described as having a large P superimposed on the Gryffindor lion. Even if Riddle's robe did not reveal his house, his badge should have.
Devika - Dec 30, 2003 8:34 am (#317 of 2956)
I guess that could be put down to a lapse on Harry's part. After all, in the memory he had a lot more to see and it isn't hard to imagine that he would have missed that part of the badge. Anyway, I still think that the crests were a movie thing. They were probably to make a drab plain black cloak look more 'school-uniformish' and give it some more colour...
magepeachtree - Dec 30, 2003 7:52 pm (#318 of 2956)
I thought they had crests on their robes too, but now that I think about it, in CoS Harry and Ron mistake Percy's girl friend, the Ravenclaw Prefect (can't recall her name just now), for a Slytherin. They may just have been nervous, but wouldn't they have thought to look for a crest on her robes?
Madam Poppy - Dec 30, 2003 8:04 pm (#319 of 2956)
Could the crest on her robes just been covered with her hair? I know the girl in the movie had long hair.
magepeachtree - Dec 30, 2003 8:42 pm (#320 of 2956)
That's a possibility, but you would think that if there were house crests on their robes, that would be the perfect time to mention it. Harry or Ron could have said, "Oh, we should have looked at her robes," or, "I wish her hair wasn't covering her house crest."
Gina R Snape - Dec 30, 2003 8:45 pm (#321 of 2956)
Maybe it was "evil curly hair" that distracted them!
But seriously. There must be a way for teachers to tell what houses students are in. It's inconcievable to me that any professor could on sight remember 1,000 students and which houses they are in.
Devika - Dec 31, 2003 2:21 am (#322 of 2956)
Gina, I'm not entirely sure if it's that difficult for teachers to remember a student's house. It seems that on an average there are 10 students per year per house or even less. If a teacher takes a certain class, it shouldn't be too difficult to memorise a dozen names in a week. I assume that they would already be familiar with the older students' houses. There would be no need for house crests in such a scenario. I study in a class of almost 60 people, and all our teachers knew our names by the end of a week. At any rate, HP is a magical world, so I guess they could simply be using magic to remember names!
Blast - Dec 31, 2003 3:14 am (#323 of 2956)
D on't forget that these are not ordinary teachers. Um bridge on the otherhand must ask some of the students their names.
Gina R Snape - Dec 31, 2003 6:56 am (#324 of 2956)
I don't want to extend this thread over number of students because there is a thread to debate this. But in a nutshell, JKR has said there are 1000 students at Hogwarts, which means 250 per house, so that would average to 35 students per year per house for 140 new students a year total. While a agree that these teachers are for the most part seasoned and probably have magically enhanced memories, I know for myself that it seems to take me forever to remember students' names--except those who stand out. I would never be able to remember all those students names AND houses. I can imagine a few other professors would have that problem as well.
Well, now it's going to bug me to no end regarding this subject of the house crests! But I still think Snape is such a quintessential Slytherin that there's no way he could have been in any other house.
Devika - Jan 1, 2004 12:01 am (#325 of 2956)
Gina... thanks for getting this thread back to Snape!
Blast - Jan 1, 2004 8:46 am (#326 of 2956)
I don't know about Snape being in Slytherin he has many qualities that would place him in other houses. I bet the Sorting Hat spent a bit of time on his head before it placed him.
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 10:35 am (#327 of 2956)
Well, I could see him being a Ravenclaw, but he's just too sly in my opinion. And he'd never tolerate being placed in Gryffindor!
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 11:38 am (#328 of 2956)
Or MAYBE.... Snape wanted to be a Gryffindor really really bad and he wasnt sorted there and that's yet another reason he loathes them all, to a man.
Just a thought....
xo
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:08 pm (#329 of 2956)
ElfWorks, go back a bit on this thread and read posts #295 through 298. We pretty much settled the fact that Snape was in Slytherin with both canon fact and with through his bio on the Lexicon. Hope this helps with creating more ideas about our dear Professor of Potions.
Ciao. Barb
Edit: here's a link to #295: click here
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 2:21 pm (#330 of 2956)
Yes, Madame Librarian, I understand that he was a Slytherin. I have no doubt about it. I was just saying... maybe he WANTED to be a Griff. This might account, in small part, for his outrageous loathing of all things Gryffindor.
lisa
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:42 pm (#331 of 2956)
Barb, I think ElfWorks is debating his wants, not his actual house.
And, well, I suppose it's possible he wanted to be in Gryffindor. But, wouldn't the sorting hat put him there if he really wanted it? After all, it is our choices...
The question is, why would he want to be in Gryffindor? Sure, some of the spying stuff he's doing now is brave. But he does it all in a very Slytherin way---behind the scenes and such. Gryffindors rush in where others fear to tread. They are certainly seen as the heroes by JKR and to some extent within the wizarding world I suppose. Does Snape want to be the hero in the limelight? I don't think so. I think he wants credit and appreciation and admiration and respect. But I don't think he wants the kind of flash the Gryffindor Marauders had. Unfortunately, we don't know enough about Snape as a child. But it does seem the attention he got wasn't positive. So, I can't imagine he'd want any more attention as a youth.
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:42 pm (#332 of 2956)
Aaah, sorry for misinterpreting. I am not reading things carefully today; for some strange reason I had a late night last night. (Yawn.)
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:45 pm (#333 of 2956)
Yippee, I get to be post 333! Half the way there...
Can't imagine why you are feeling tired today... I wonder what wizards do on New Year's.
ElfWorks - Jan 1, 2004 2:47 pm (#334 of 2956)
Madame, I do indeed understand! Eggnog and champagne can do that to me. uh you i mean!
xo
Madame Librarian - Jan 1, 2004 2:49 pm (#335 of 2956)
They probably have an incredibly effective potion for hangovers, another one for upset tummies, and a third comparable to muggle No-Doz of all-nighter fame. Another argument in support of how important a good Potions Master can be.
OK, sorry, enough off-topic stuff (well, Snape is indirectly mentioned).
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 1, 2004 2:55 pm (#336 of 2956)
Well, on the Potions thread there was a very brief discussion about how potions don't seem to be that widely used in the wizarding world. I think they are difficult and at times very inconvenient to make. Snape talks to Harry about not being subtle. Potions making requires a certain set of skills which tells us a lot about Snape's character I think.
septentrion - Jan 2, 2004 11:31 am (#337 of 2956)
at least, potions making requires patience, concentration and precision. About potions (I haven't read the potions thread yet), I think that the most useful potions can be purchased already done, and that would be another reason why they don't seem to be used that much.
HP Fan - Jan 2, 2004 12:12 pm (#338 of 2956)
This thread - you leave it for a few days and wow it takes off like a rocket. Sorry to take the discussion back a little bit but I would like to throw my two knuts worth into the cauldron and see what you think of it.
On the issue of Harry using Snape's name without the Professor tag. At my school there were certain teachers who me and my friend when amongst ourselves would call purely by their surname, not because we didn't respect them, in many cases it was the exact opposite. We like and respected them a lot, they were those particular type of teachers who treat you as equals who you can have a really good laugh with and who where well known to be really laid back out of school hours ie school holiday etc. Yet at the same time you know exactly how far you can go with them, where they personally drew the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. However hen we were talking about them to another teacher we wouldn't have dreamed of referring to them as anything except Mr,Mrs. or Miss __________. I think DD's correction of Harry is in a way a little reminder that it's not really the correct thing to refer to another teacher by their surname only in front of a staff member least of all the Headmaster. Snape's insistance of having Sir or Professor included in each sentence Harry speaks is a little example of someone having power/position over another person and loving the feeling it gives them. He's reinforcing his position as teacher, and Harry's as pupil, just when it's not needed.
Another valid point is how Snape refers to DD just by his surname in front of Harry, one thing that has struck me through out the whole series is the way teachers refer to each other in front of students. There are numerous occasions where one or another refers to another staff member by their first name or just by their surname. Something that's not normal practise really in schools. If ever a pupil was present in a classroom, anytime staff referred to one another, made and enquiry or anything like that they always used Mr or Mrs. _________ rather than first names. [I keep leaving blanks as you can fill them with any particular name you wish your own or that of one of your favorite/most hated teachers.] Snape's use of ' Dumbledore' rather than ' Professor Dumbledore' is normal in that particular light. McGonagall refer's to Mad Eye Moody as plain Moody in front of a hall full of students and calls Professor Trelawany 'Sybil' on a number of occasions [after the first Divination lesson, at Christmas in PoA and in OoP in front of a hall full of students. Even Dumbledore refers to McGonagall as Minerva on several occasions in front of students and to Snape as Severus Snape in front of Harry, after correcting him for saying Snape instead of Professor Snape. Yes Snape might have been wiser to enforce his point about respect through the use of Professor Dumbledore rather than plain Dumbledore but to him it would have been an entirely normal way for him to refer to Dumbledore. The use of surnames and first names alone in front of students seems normal on the Wizarding world.
Someone I can't remember who was asking about the practise of calling male students by their surnames and female students by Miss ________. It's not so much practise in schools now but at some Private schools and in the Victorian times up to the fifties possibly later it was common practise. Jugging by things relatives have said and other books I have read, I think it's part of the Wizarding World's oldy worldy feel the same as the use of quills etc.
Well I'm not sure whether that has helped or just confused people - I'm never sure whether or not I'm making sense. Or expressing things clearly enough.
Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2004 12:24 pm (#339 of 2956)
You've expressed yourself perfectly well HPFan.
I half wonder if JKR was making a power point with Snape but didn't even think about him referring to DD without the "Professor." Maybe she has a general rule of conduct in her head but 'slips' in her own writing. Nevertheless, regardless of what the teachers call each other, they are peers. The students should remember they are students in the presence of their professors.
Edit: Egads, that must be my inner Snape emerging today!
SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 12:24 pm (#340 of 2956)
The only problem I have with Snape's call me sir line, is that Harry had spoken all of one word to him. I mean, we're not even talking about an entire sentence.
In painfully full context:
He paused outside the door when he reached it, wishing he were almost anywhere else, then, taking a deep breath, he knocked and entered.
The shadowy room was lined with shelves bearing hundreds of glass jars in which slimy bits of animals and plants were suspended in variously coloured potions. In one corner stood the cupboard full of ingredients that Snape had once accused Harry - not without reason - of robbing. Harry's attention was drawn towards the desk, however, where a shallow stone basin engraved with runes and symbols lay in a pool of candlelight. Harry recognised it at once - it was Dumbledore's Pensieve. Wondering what on earth it was doing there, he jumped when Snape's cold voice came out of the shadows.
'Shut the door behind you, Potter.'
Harry did as he was told, with the horrible feeling that he was imprisoning himself. When he turned back into the room, Snape had moved into the light and was pointing silently at the chair opposite his desk. Harry sat down and so did Snape, his cold black eyes fixed unblinkingly upon Harry, dislike etched in every line of his face.
'Well, Potter, you know why you are here', he said. 'The Headmaster has asked me to teach you Occlumency. I can only hope that you prove more adept at it than at Potions.'
'Right', said Harry tersely.
'This may not be an ordinary class, Potter', said Snape, his eyes narrowed malevolently, 'but I am still your teacher and you will therefore call me "sir" or "Professor" at all times.'
There's respect, and then there's brow beating. This is an example of the later.
Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2004 3:44 pm (#341 of 2956)
I don't disagree he went a bit far with the "Sir" thing in this scene. But actually, this particular exchange was not inappropriate to me. Occlumency was an unusual 'class' for Harry. Mental boundaries were literally crossed. Snape did not want Harry to get too comfortable (as if that were possible!) in their exchanges and forget where he was or who he was with. Snape was trying to set the tone here, and I don't object to it. Now, later on when he interrupts Harry for forgetting to say Sir, it did go a bit overboard. But then, that's our Severus...
SJ Rand - Jan 3, 2004 8:15 am (#342 of 2956)
The "problem" that I have with it is that he eventually tells Harry that the mind must be cleared and relaxed with no emotions cluttering it up. But he sets the stage by provoking Harry.
Slight side track: First Snape tells Harry that Occlumency uses the same force as (or similar to?) resisting an Imperious. Then he says that Harry must be free of emotion.
Okay, first off the times we see Harry resist an Imperious curse he's far from emotion free. When he resists Voldemort in he graveyard, he's quite angry.
Next, controlling emotions and learning Occlumency would really have to be two different exercises. I don't see how it's possible to be relaxed and emotionless while even a friend is looking at thoughts you'd rather not share with others. Unless you've first had a lot of training at repressing your emotions, just the learning process alone is going to cause annoyance, embarrassment, frustration, and so on.
Last, if elimination of emotions is the key, how does Snape do it? He's not exactly Mister Spock himself, is he?
Another last, wouldn't Voldemort become just a tiny little bit suspicious when one of his usually agitated and fearful supporters, or a prisoner, suddenly goes all Vulcan on him during questioning? "Oh, you're an Occlumens, are you? Crucio!"
Edit:
How does a person stay emotionless while they're asleep? I kind of thought that emotions were what dreams are all about.
Weeny Owl - Jan 3, 2004 10:46 am (#343 of 2956)
Snape said, "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."
That doesn't mean Snape would be emotionless in Voldie's presence, but he would be able to shut down certain feelings so that he could convince Voldie he's telling the truth.
As for the dreams, I think someone who has mastered Occlumency wouldn't need to worry about emotions in dreams because the mind would be blocked against intrusion. It's analogy time: I see Legilimency as the sun and Occlumency as the sunglasses... without them, you're vulnerable but with them you're protected. That doesn't mean you won't know the sun is there or feel it, but that you will have the protection you need so that it won't be a problem. Maybe an umbrella and rain. Regardless, the protection is there.
Snape said, "I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for this..."
Similar powers to the Imperius Curse but not necessarily the exact same powers. Here's another analogy... Harry can paint using watercolors as the medium but cannot quite master using oils. There are similar techniques in painting, but there are still differences in how a painter goes about achieving the wanted effect.
Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 11:19 am (#344 of 2956)
Yes, I think the key word here is resistance. Harry would not let Crouch!Moody control his mind and body. In the same way, perhaps Occlumency is about controlling what thoughts and feelings can be found.
I actually wrote a piece of fanfic exploring this topic. Let me see if I can make it G-rated enough to post here as a way of explaining how I think occlumency works. It is a scene where Snape is giving Tonks Occlumency lessons and she puts up some resistance regarding what memories and feelings he can see, and influences about what she wants him to find out.
Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 8:33 pm (#345 of 2956)
Ok, I did not get to my fic this weekend. So, no further discussion of occlumency from me (and now that I think about it, this isn't the right thread for that anyway, but I digress...) But a friend just pointed me to this analysis of Snape on mugglenet and I am bursting, I tell you. bursting!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ok, I really wish I were done with my blasted syllabus already, because I want to tear apart every section. But anyway, I trust someone here will pick up on some of the exciting debate and bring it over!
Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 9:14 pm (#346 of 2956)
Ok. I see the 'edit' button has a timer on it. I thought once you were in mid-edit, you had time. Oh well. Anyway...
Ok, I've just finished reading the whole thing. And a few very quick thoughts came to mind--
Snape jinxed the DADA position? Completely brilliant!!!!!!
Snape helped Harry in the GoF scene outside DD's office? I have been struggling and struggling for a way to interpret that scene in a positive light for Snape. Now I have got one!!!!!
Confession time---although I do strongly believe that Snape is 100% on Dumbledore's side and will do something visibly and indisputably spectacular by the end of the series, I would not be entirely disappointed if he was a 'true Slytherin' and took care of himself first. But only if he did it with style. I know, it's terrible. I can't help it. I'm just so smitten...
Julia. - Jan 4, 2004 10:14 pm (#347 of 2956)
Gina, I love the new avatar, although I have to admit your old one was pretty cool as well. After spending all day slogging through over 900 Snape posts, I want to join the Detention's With Snape Club
Caput Draconis - Jan 5, 2004 2:16 am (#348 of 2956)
Well I like nothing more than a good Snape-a-thon, especially when it's drawn direct from JKR like that one. I enjoyed it a lot.
Now...I like the connection with the Quiddich World Cup (QWC) that reveals specific similarities between DE muggle torture and Snape's worst memory. I don't think that 'one' was Severus, at least not motivated by his usual bitterness toward James. I'm just not sure the connection is strong enough - maybe if that random muggle was James' long lost cousin, or something. What it does do for me is further knock James off his pedestal. It's not Snape, as most would expect, who is in the position that paralells the DEs, but Harry's dad.
But that gets you thinking about Lucius and Snape. Malfoy was leading that group of DE's at the QWC, and we know that Snape at least maintains the illusion of friendship with him. To be a friend of Lucius, a 'lap-dog' even, I would think that you couldn't deny him too many times. So how many times can Snape excuse himself if his DE 'buddies' want to go muggle baiting? Surely he'd avoid any situation where one of Malfoy's schemes involved murder/torture, but does he have to participate on some level to stay in the evil loop?
I think one of my favourite things in this whole crazy Harry world is endless discussion on The Sudden Movement (TSM). I certainly don't think Snape was worried about Harry implicating him after Lucius. The author of Gina's link dismisses the fact Snape shows his Dark Mark (best scene ever, btw) when supporting this theory, saying that having Harry say Snape's name would negate any brownie points he earns by coming forward himself, thus he moves to shut Harry up. I reckon TSM is about silencing Harry, not for himself or Lucius (who everyone knows was a DE, imperioed or not), but for Harry's own benifit. We know that Snape, in his own way, has protected Harry throughout the books (like the list at the link lists ). Snape may be considering the fact that Harry is putting himself in danger by revealing all he knows about the DEs, in case it leaks and some loyal follower takes it upon themselves to shut Potter's mouth permanently. Snape knows better than anyone how ruthless followers of Voldemort can be in carrying out their master's orders.
I don't know about that scene outside DD's office - I'd need to reread it. I'm not sure there needs to be a way to paint Snape in a positive light, we know that sometimes the man can be plain vindictive. But in light of what Harry said? I'l have to reread, but 'helping' seemed a bit of a stretch.
Snape jinxing the DADA position completely floated my boat, love it to death. So Slytherin. Which brings us to the last passage of that editorial, which I think we'd do well to keep in mind at all times when we discuss Severus - he is perhaps the ultimate Slytherin...
That was super fun. Have at it.
Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2004 11:36 am (#349 of 2956)
I enjoyed the treatise very much. It's a great example of how a teensy, itsy-bitsy, ickle shift in perspective can shed a whole new light onto some relatively innocent phrases or actions. Snape, along with good ol' Autnie Pet, is one of the most enigmatic characters in the epic. One minute I'm sure he's truly DE, spying for Voldie; another minute I'm equally sure it's the other way 'round. Then I throw up my arms in complete dismay and say he's both at once and he's an absolute genius at it!
Is there any possibility that those potions he's so good at have something to do with keeping anyone who he wants the dark? I know there are virtually no scenes that I recall where Snape offers a pick-me-up to any visitors (except his anti-werewolf draught for Lupin), but I'm just taking a wild stab here. Is this why DD keeps Snape as Potions Master rather than "promoting" him to DADA?
Ooooh, I just thought of something odd--Snape never dines with Staff at Hogwarts (even though he sits as table, he looks at the food distastefully and scowls a lot), and refuses to join the meals at the 12GP. There are pointed moments when he awkwardly begs off from doing so. Isn't there a bit of his introductory description to that effect (always eats on his own down in his dungeon office--paraphrase here)? Is it there something to that? Something to do with the food? Something to do with something in the food? I have gone overboard here, I think.
Ciao. Barb
Weeny Owl - Jan 5, 2004 11:41 am (#350 of 2956)
Snape does have Christmas dinner with everyone in PoA. That's when he pulls the cracker with Dumbledore and the stuffed vulture hat appears. I always thought that was something Dumbledore had planned to tease Snape about being Neville's Gran in the boggart scene.
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Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2004 11:53 am (#351 of 2956)
Not to belabor a point (but, um, well here goes)--if my whacko suggestion has any merit at all, then Snape would for sure not do anything strange to the food if he knew he had to dine in company. For certain festive events he just has to be there.
Ciao. Barb
septentrion - Jan 5, 2004 12:13 pm (#352 of 2956)
Julia, Gina is president of "in detention with Snape" club but I think she wouldn't care if I welcome you first in the club. The more, the funnier !
I've checked the mugglenet essay and I'll try to add my two knuts.
About Draco suggesting Snape becoming Hogwarts headmaster in CoS, I'd say that Draco was well informed at a time when his father was influential in the school. Afterwards, his information became obsolete of course.
Snape being the man who made the muggles hang upside down at the quidditch world cup : it's hard for me to believe it. Sure he can be very mean and nasty, but to that point ? more, we haven't heard of him during the QWC.
I don't think either that he knew about Lucius opening the chamber of secrets. I'm sure that he had known, he had told it to DD. After all, Hogwarts gives him a respectable position, wages, and maybe one day the job of DADA teacher. How could he have let done something which would have lead to close the scool ? Even if Lucius is his friend, and I believe so, he would have save his own neck first.
I've often wondered about Snape's sudden movement at the end of GoF, and I like caput draconis' explanation. It fits to me.
Is Snape still a death eater or DD's supporter ? I'm inclined to believe that he's DD's supporter, but I can't think of how he gets LV's(or death eaters)trust, which is essential to spy above them.
as for the Great Question : did Snape jinxed the DADA position ? I have my own theory : I think the position is kind of "self-jinxed" until its "natural owner" is in age, I mean Harry Potter. Harry made incredibly good work with the DA, he's a natural teacher, and very skilled in DADA, so the job should be for him, but he's too young. I think he could get it after his last year in Hogwarts. Poor Severus will have to stay potions master ! (could I be wrong !)
Julia. - Jan 5, 2004 12:45 pm (#353 of 2956)
Septentrion, Thanks for the welcome Just a few comments on your comments...
"As for the Great Question : did Snape jinxed the DADA position ? I have my own theory : I think the position is kind of "self-jinxed" until its "natural owner" is in age, I mean Harry Potter. Harry made incredibly good work with the DA, he's a natural teacher, and very skilled in DADA, so the job should be for him, but he's too young. I think he could get it after his last year in Hogwarts. Poor Severus will have to stay potions master ! (could I be wrong !)"
I couldn't agree with you more!
"About Draco suggesting Snape becoming Hogwarts headmaster in CoS, I'd say that Draco was well informed at a time when his father was influential in the school. Afterwards, his information became obsolete of course."
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Lucius is still VERY influential at Hogwarts. He may not be a school Governor, but he still has a lot of money, and he's still a very powerful dark wizard, and thus has a lot of influence over what goes on. Remember that in PoA when Hagrid made his case for Buckbeak, (the second time of course, the first was a complete disaster) despite his good defence, they still killed Buckbeak. Hagrid was quoted as saying something along the lines of "Lucius Malfoy's got that whole committee in his pocket." (I'm at work and the exact quote and citation escapes me at the moment) But I think this shows that Malfoy still has a lot of say about what goes on. However, I'm going to stop now, as this is a Snape thread, not a Malfoy Sr. one.
Gina R Snape - Jan 5, 2004 1:53 pm (#354 of 2956)
Welcome, Julie. I am the President of the Detention with Snape club, and we are always happy to have new members.
If the DADA position is self-jinxed, then Snape will positively have kittens for days if Harry gets the job. I think that would be enough for him to quit--protection or no protection!
I don't buy the idea that Snape was the one who turned the muggles upside down at the World Cup. Some of the ideas were really stretching it, and that one more than others in my opinion. But he may have been part of the hijinx as a way of hanging with Lucius. During the year he as the Hogwarts excuse. But we don't know what he gets up to during the summer (except in fanfic of course!).
And I do firmly believe Snape is very friendly with Lucius. I suspect it was part of the plan for Snape to come to Hogwarts, and for Voldemort and company to think he is the Dark Lord's loyal servant at Hogwarts, meanwhile he's really serving Dumbledore.
To that end, I don't believe for a second that he was in on the diary plan. He was genuinely worried when Ginny was taken into the chamber. (Such a shame that scene was changed in the movie. Snape gasping and grabbing the chair, his knuckles going white, would have been a terrific reaction shot).
Malfoy didn't have influence over Hogwarts. He had influence over the MoM Committee regarding Buckbeak. Big difference. Plus, we of course now know that the would-be animal executioner is an active Death Eater.
We have never seen evidence that Snape doesn't eat with others at Hogwarts to my recollection. We know he won't eat at 12 Grimmauld Place. But I suspect he a)doesn't want to dine with them; and b)wouldn't dine in the house of his enemy Sirius. It's bad enough he has to go there to begin with! It's enough...
I do wonder, though, about Snape ending his first meeting with Harry for lessons in order to be at the Death Eater 'escape party.' Man that would make a great piece of fanfic!
Weeny Owl - Jan 5, 2004 8:24 pm (#355 of 2956)
Gina:
Voldie himself mentions Lucius indulging in a bit of Muggle torture at the Quidditch World Cup, and while it's open to interpretation, I would agree that it was Ferret Boy's father and not Snape who did the upside down thing. Snape could have been there, of course.
I think he doesn't eat at 12 Grimmauld Place for two reasons... what you said about the house of his enemy, but also because he'd have to be around the students he teaches. I doubt if he would want them to see him as a "family friend/visitor" after school begins again. Keeping that distance seems totally in character.
The scene in GoF where Harry is trying to get to Dumbledore's office to tell him about Crouch can be seen in a few ways, and I haven't quite decided if he was trying to help Harry in his typical Slytherin way or if he was just having fun frustrating Harry.
AriadneSeverine - Jan 6, 2004 10:45 am (#356 of 2956)
Hey Gina! Guess who's back: good to see you on form as usual...
I wouldn't be surprised if it were just Severus having his bit of fun frustrating Harry - it must be quite amusing watching one of your students who looks a lot like his father (who once turned you upside down) start getting flustered at the flick of a switch.
And in response to Weeny Owl about eating with them at 12 Grimmauld place: I do agree with you, but I also think that he would just be uncomfortable (which could lead to anger and frustration, knowing our beloved Potions Master) sitting with people who no matter what he does, will always distrust/dislike him. I can see him thinking "Oh to Hell with them all!" and swearing to have as little to do with them as possible, in the socialising sense...
Romana - Jan 7, 2004 5:03 am (#357 of 2956)
Just to add a knut or two about Severus Snape and Lucius Malfoy. What if Lucius Malfoy fooled Snape into thinking that he was no longer a Death Eater and that he had really changed on to the side of good? As has been said, Snape was genuinely worried when Ginny got trapped in the Chamber of Secrets. Draco Malfoy seemed to know an awful lot about what was going on at the school for the first few years, could this be Snape gossiping with his old friend Lucius? I say this because of the scene in GoF when Harry names Malfoy as a Death Eater, remember Snape's reaction? Can't type it I haven't got the book with me. What if he was surprised?
I hope I am right to a degree, because it would lead to a simply wonderful confrontation scene between Malfoy and Snape... I really wouldn'd want to be in Malfoy's shoes at that point!
One other thing... Does anyone have a theory as to why Snape followed DD and McGonagall into the champoins room when Hary's name came out of the Goblet in GoF? Every other person has a reason to be there: E.g. DD, headmaster, McGonagall deputy head, and Head of Griffindor House, the three other heads, because of their champinons, the organisers and Percy, because he is the organisers assistant. I can't remember if Mrs Weasly was there, but if she was she would also have a valid reason for being there because of Harry. But the Poitons master? What's he going to do? Poison him? (as much as he'd like to...)
P.s. If Snape is a pure blood wizard (which I assume he is) And James is a pure blood wizard, it means they are related... Just a thought
P.P.s That means that Harry Draco and Ron could be related too... Now the world is getting too complicated. I think I'll stop about here.
septentrion - Jan 7, 2004 5:19 am (#358 of 2956)
If Snape was surprised when Harry named L. Malfoy as a death eater; it didn't lead obviously to a confrontation. In fact, I don't think you're right on that point, Romana. I'm sure that Snape have never been fooled about Lucius' nature. Surely he didn't know everything Lucius was up to like opening the chamber of secrets, but surely too he knew Lucius was adept of dark arts and LV.
About the reason why Snape came into the champions' room after their names had gone out of the goblet of fire : good question, I have to think about it.
Peregrine - Jan 7, 2004 8:21 am (#359 of 2956)
I think he was just eager for a chance to show everyone that Harry was somehow breaking the rules again.
Gina R Snape - Jan 7, 2004 9:21 am (#360 of 2956)
I think that is one subtle example of how Snape and McGonagall form a triumverate with Dumbledore. They are his team, his inner circle. If DD and McGonagall are there, Snape is going to be there. Even if not for Harry specifically, then because the event is taking place at Hogwarts and DD will require the attention of his two trusted top staff to assist in every aspect of the championship.
Oh, and welcome back Ariadne. Glad to see you.
Julia. - Jan 7, 2004 12:49 pm (#361 of 2956)
I agree Gina. I think the whole point of having Snape go in the little room with Dumbledore and McGonnagal was to show that he is part of the "Big Three" of Hogwarts staff, or the "Trio," if you will. It was no mistake that those three were there in that scene, as well as during the interrogation of Barty Crouch Jr. in GoF. Snape and McGonnagal are two of Dumbledore's most trusted people, and having Snape in that room (the one after Harry's name is drawn from the GoF, that is) shows that brilliantly.
Slyangel - Jan 7, 2004 5:25 pm (#362 of 2956)
I'm so ashamed to admit to not knowing this, but isn't Snape deputy headmaster? I thought I read that somewhere--like if DD was incapacitated and then McGonagal, Snape would be next in line (maybe I'm just confused).
Argh, I wish I had time to read through every single Snape comment, so this is probably redundant material (but you like having an excuse to analyze and re-analyze the Potions Master, admit it ;-): Surely Snape's "worst memory" was a bit more, er, dramatic than a childhood humiliation?
Feel free to ignore that query if it's been done to death.
Also, am I the only one wondering if Snape was present in the cemetary at the end of GoF? He seemed genuinely surprised at Voldemort's return (the infirmary scene in GoF), but could he have been acting? What sort of treatment was he subjected to if he *wasn't* present at V's rebirthing ceremony? *Shudders* It obviously would've been quite sadistic, especially considering how traumatized he seemed when DD sent him away at the end of GoF to take care of business.
Has anyone made predictions concerning Snape's role as a double agent? And why *hasn't* he gotten the position of DADA professor? Is it because DD felt Snape would be showing off his dark arts talent, and he wanted to prevent awkward questions from parents (and possibly the MoM)?
Also, is there a thread for Book 6 predictions?
P.S. Gina R Snape, I love your avatar--that is the most inventive SS incarnation I've seen :-) Sev-severi-sev-severi-sev-sev-er-ee, when you're with Sev'rus Snape, you're lucky 's can be! Sev-severi-sev-severi-sev-sev-er-oo, he can give me detention, bet you'd like one too!
Weeny Owl - Jan 7, 2004 8:17 pm (#363 of 2956)
I've been rereading the part where Snape makes a sudden movement after Harry mentions to Fudge that Lucius Malfoy was one of the Death Eaters at the rebirthing.
I'm wondering if Snape was just startled to hear Malfoy's name actually mentioned, and looked at Fudge to see how HE would react. Perhaps Snape wonders just how close the Minister of Magic and Lucius are.
Granted, that wasn't explained in the fifth book, but where Snape had gone after the scene in the hospital wing wasn't explained either.
septentrion - Jan 8, 2004 2:37 am (#364 of 2956)
Gina : "I think that is one subtle example of how Snape and McGonagall form a triumverate with Dumbledore"
thanks Gina for avoiding me a long pain while trying to find a fitting explanation ;-) I quite agree with you, JKR builts a triumvirate book after book. Maybe she's preparing the reconciliation between Hogwarts houses...
Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2004 7:03 am (#365 of 2956)
Thanks for the compliment, Slyangel. But I got sick of Ms. Poppins and changed it back to Detention Snape. (For now! I'm a compulsive avatar-changer I admit).
I too wonder how close Fudge and Lucius were at that point. Lucius Malfoy seems to have Fudge in his pocket throughout OoP. So I would guess pretty tight. Maybe Snape wants Lucius to be tight with Fudge for some reason and Harry's revelation spoils his cover. Because there's no doubt in my mind that Snape knew Malfoy would be at LV's rebirthing.
And I don't think there was surprise in Snape that LV rose again. I think it's the horror and memories and knowledge of what comes next and just the story itself would be enough to elicit some sort of emotion from Snape. Knowing how well he tends to mask his emotions (because I think even in full rage we only see a fraction of what is going on inside him), I can only imagine the freak-out and/or meltdown Sev had in private. And of course, his dark mark would tell him enough of the return, even if not the details of the return.
So, here is a thought for everyone, on a different topic. A friend of mine who is very very pro-Snape came up with the theory that maybe Snape is protecting Harry for Lord Voldemort's purposes, not for Dumbledore's. So that at some point he can deliver the boy to the Dark Lord. I don't buy it for several reasons. But I throw it out there for your thoughts.
Peregrine - Jan 8, 2004 7:44 am (#366 of 2956)
I would probably be behind that theory if I wasn?t so convinced that Snape is a good guy (hm, having the words ?good? and ?Snape? in the same sentence like that looks funny). But even if he were on wrong side, what?s he waiting for? Voldemort has been back, more or less, for two books and Snape?s had plenty of opportunities to kidnap Harry and whisk him away to the Dark Lord. Unless Snape has something very specific in mind for Harry and has to get the timing just right (like Barty Jr. did), I don?t see that happening. And at this point, Voldemort is so twitchy and anxious when it comes to Harry; I can?t see Snape making him wait. The sooner he brings him Harry, the sooner Voldemort will reward him.
Come to think of it, why hasn?t Voldemort demanded Snape bring him Harry? I would think Snape?s certainly smart enough to do it without getting caught.
SarcasticGinny - Jan 8, 2004 8:26 am (#367 of 2956)
I think that after the wand-incedent in GOF, Voldemort wants the prophecy because he thinks it will tell him how to kill Harry. Otherwise, on the first day of school he could have said, "Sev, let me hide in your storage cabinet, keep Potter after class, and I'll jump out and A.K. him." I think Voldemort, when he isn't a furiously foolish prat like he is in the Dept. of Mysteries, is carefully plotting how to get the knowlege of how take down Harry before he tries to do so, and therefore hasn't asked Snape for help...yet.
Slyangel - Jan 8, 2004 6:41 pm (#368 of 2956)
I think that may very well be an integral part of Book 6. Why couldn't Snape bring Harry to V? I can think of subtle ways Severus could lure Harry, drug him, smuggle him out of Hogwarts--surely Voldemort has thought of this? Perhaps he'll threaten, "Bring me Potter or DIE!" (Because I really believe V would want to do the honors himself; and not due to a lack of faith in his DEs, but out of a sadistic desire to be Harry's executioner.) Perhaps a DE, no, wait, perhaps Lucius will acquire sensitive info from Draco to the effect that Snape is not all that he seems, and Lucius will tip off V; then V, riddled with suspicion and anxious for closure, will deliver his ultimatum. That would put my (our) beloved Snape in one heck of a position :-\
I've been rereading the part where Snape makes a sudden movement after Harry mentions to Fudge that Lucius Malfoy was one of the Death Eaters at the rebirthing. I'm wondering if Snape was just startled to hear Malfoy's name actually mentioned, and looked at Fudge to see how HE would react.
Yes, I think you're right about that. I think he wanted to see how Fudge would react.
Perhaps Snape wonders just how close the Minister of Magic and Lucius are.
I think a possibility is that Fudge is being controlled by way of an Imperius curse, through Lucius. I know there's no logical reason to suspect this, because Fudge does seem awfully dense (my, but he makes a convincing politician!). I just wonder if that obliviousness is part and parcel his personality, or if he might've cast a blind eye on all evidence of V's return, previously, because he's being controlled.
Edited to say: By the way, I know that Fudge distrusted DD before, and having Umbridge and Lucius whispering in his ear certainly would've had an impact on his loyalties. If Book 6 opens with Fudge having reverted to his obstinate old self *then* I'll have no other choice but to think he's being controlled (!!).
A friend of mine who is very very pro-Snape came up with the theory that maybe Snape is protecting Harry for Lord Voldemort's purposes, not for Dumbledore's.
Nooooooooooo. No way. Never. What purpose? Now that V has a body he no longer needs him; we *know* he wants him dead (otherwise V wouldn't have tried to kill him in GoF...and SS, and CoS, and OotP). Unless there's been a change in plans. Nah, I doubt it. I think he suspects that it's a kill-or-be-killed scenario, though the evidence is now lost forever to him.
HP Fan - Jan 9, 2004 11:43 am (#369 of 2956)
I don't think it has been said anywhere that Snape is deputy-head. I think that Hogwarts only has one deputy-head [though unusual for a secondary school of that size - however it is a school for Witch Craft and Wizardry so it shouldn't be that surprising I suppose]and that is McGonagall. However having said that I think, based on my old school's hierarchical system, that Snape is what we called a "Senior Teacher" ie. on the senior management team that is headed by the Head and deputies. As such he would be privy to more information than ordinary teachers and more involved. In addition I think that when McGonagall became temporary head it would be logical to assume that Snape became the temporary deputy-head. Therefore it is natural that he would be part of Harry's rescue party after the Harry returns to Hogwarts in GoF, and that he would be present in the scene in the chamber off the Great Hall at the start of the tournament.
Also to continue a point someone made earlier [sorry I've a memory like a sieve where names are concerned and can't remember who that someone is] McGonagall and Snape are the only members of staff who [to my knowledge/memory] have accepted an order or request of action from DD without a question. Madam Pumfrey questions him when he wants to speak to Harry and Hermione alone in PoA and though I can't remember off hand other instances in detail I am sure there have been a couple more occasions of this as well. [My brain's not working today I think someone's slipped me a draught of Forget fulness potion somewhere along the line.] I'll stop posting now before I do my brain an injury by straining it to remember too much information. Trying to remember the contents of 23 posts and my reactions plus canon evidence to back up what I'm saying - not good for mind. Being carted off to St Mungo's as type.
popkin - Jan 10, 2004 11:24 am (#370 of 2956)
I'm backing up just a bit to right after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet of Fire, and Snape follows him into the side room. Snape may have wanted to make sure that Harry was allowed to compete, and not dismissed because he was underage and chosen "illegally". If Snape was the "most loyal servant" of Voldemort, that would mean that he was orchestrating all the events of GOF, all the while manipulating Crouch Jr. to think himself in charge.
Also, I have never noticed Snape eating anything. If he takes his meals in solitude, that could be evidence in support of the "Snape is a vampire" theory. But that's another thread.
Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2004 11:26 am (#371 of 2956)
popkin, your last comment about eating echoes posts I made a week of so ago. Of course, I couldn't support my possible false memory with any canon text, but I have this feeling that something is up with dear Snape preferring to eat solo in his dungeon.
Ciao. Barb
Edit: You might want to read this post and the few following (where my idea get pretty much shot down, oh well).
Madame Librarian 1/5/04 11:36am
popkin - Jan 10, 2004 11:31 am (#372 of 2956)
Well, if he's munching down on bloodsicles, he might want to keep it a secret.
Sorry, I forgot who had mentioned the meals alone, or I would have given you credit for introducing the subject.
Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2004 11:39 am (#373 of 2956)
That's OK, I'm not sure I should be so ready to admit it. One of these days, I'll try to search the books thoroughly to see if I can find a shred of canon evidence for the eating alone comment. I remember it (again, I may have dreamed it) as part of one of those descriptive comments one kid makes to another, or the author makes to the reader to introduce or re-introduce a standing character. If that's true, it would be at the beginning of one of the earlier books. Something like, "Snape, the Head of Slytherin, was Harry's least favorite professor. Though considered a cold and demanding teacher by all, and recognized to be on cool terms with the rest of the staff--he preferred to dine alone in his dark dungeon of an office, and was rarely seen at the head table--the Potions Master seemed to take special satisfaction in making Harry's life miserable."
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 10, 2004 12:09 pm (#374 of 2956)
In the GoF scene, Snape did not seem keen on Harry participating. I still think Crouch was the Dark Lord's most loyal servant, but that Snape is NOT the one who has 'left forever.'
Barb, I definitely would remember if there was a passing comment like the one above. JKR has mentioned Snape and his dungeon-dwelling, but I'd be willing to wager a case of Snog that the only comment about Snape not eating with others was in OoP about not eating in Sirius' house. But if you come up with anything, please do post it here. I would be quite quite interested.
Edit: In fact, there are many scenes where Harry looks up at the head table and sees Snape there either watching him, glaring at someone else, or completely ignoring people. And, like someone mentioned above, there was also Christmas dinner. I hope he didn't eat the tripe...
Romana - Jan 12, 2004 1:11 am (#375 of 2956)
With regard to the eating, I think it would look pretty odd if Snape was at the teachers table during mealtimes and NOT eating don't you?
Also with regard to the 'one has left me forever' bit, I am convinced Snape is the one Voldemort is on about. Specifically because of Snape reaction to Karkaroff (sorry can't spell). 'Very well flee! I shall remain at Hogwarts' that doesn't sound like a coward running away to me. Karkaroff DID run away, I'm sure it mentions that somewhere. I don't think Snape has any intention of leaving Hogwarts.
popkin - Jan 12, 2004 4:11 am (#376 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 12, 2004 4:13 am
If Lucius and Snape have anything resembling a friendship, and they apparently do, I don't see how Snape can be the "one who has left [Voldemort] forever". Surely Lucius would have Snape killed to make points with the Dark Lord. Surely Voldemort would not leave Snape alive for an entire year after stating, in front of his highest ranking Death Eaters, that he would kill him.
I think that Snape is either Voldemort's "most trusted servant" (and not Crouch Jr., as we have supposed), or he simply arrived late to the meeting to pose as a loyal DE while actually spying for the Order and Voldemort passed his empty place in line in silence. After all, if Voldemort believes Snape to be undermining Dumbledore from inside Hogwarts, wouldn't he know that Snape would be late for the meeting since he can't apparate from his post?
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 12, 2004 9:10 am (#377 of 2956)
I don't think that Snape is his most trusted servant. remember in GoF (page 651, US)Voldemort says as he stops at the largest gap:
"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, two cowardly to return... he will pay. One, whoo I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already rentered my service."
Voldemort goes on to say that his most faithful servant is at Hogwarts and that it was through his efforts that Harry arrived at the birthing party.
I don't recall Snape helping Harry get to the goblet. Snape didn't really want Harry in the contest.
I do not like where this is leading... snape might die...
Gina R Snape - Jan 12, 2004 11:32 am (#378 of 2956)
Ok, I think we need to look at this from Voldemort's perspective
JKR plays up Karkaroff's cowardice to make us think he is the one too cowardly to return. But Karkaroff went to trial and squealed on his fellow death eaters. Then he fled the country. I think this would make the Dark Lord see him as the one who has left him forever and must be killed.
Snape, on the other hand, keeps a low profile. The Dark Lord might interpret his lackof appearance as cowardice, that's he's too afraid to show up. Therefore, Snape will pay. I think at the end of GoF, Dumbledore sent Snape to the Dark Lord to prostrate himself before him, and beg forgiveness and to ask to be let back into the fold. As has been said before, he can use the "no disapparating out of Hogwarts" as an excuse not to show earlier. And he can say "when I saw Potter return to the school, I knew you would need me..." plus he can report on what happened to Barty Crouch Jr. as a way to get back in the Dark Lord's favour and provide useful information at the same time.
The question then is, what happened to Karkaroff? Will we hear of his demise?
Will we ever get to see direct evidence of Snape's activities? Tea at Malfoy Mansion? Attendance at a DE meeting? Consoling Narcissa? Tenpin bowling with "da DE boyz" on Saturday night?
I've often found a fanfic devise where Malfoy Sr. comes to Hogwarts to pay a visit and stir up trouble. I just don't see this as realistically happening in any of the books so far, nor in the future. Had Harry continued Occlumency lessons with Snape, I supposed he might witness some of Snape's activities. But maybe he'll have more dreams, and see the Dark Lord with Snape the way he saw him with Avery. That would be interesting too.
In any event, there's a reason why Snape is able to stay alive and keep up his spying activities for the Order. And I doubt he'd be able to do that if he was the one who 'left forever' and there were plans for the Dark Lord to arrange a permanent nap.
I Am Used Vlad - Jan 12, 2004 3:03 pm (#379 of 2956)
Isn't Snape a double agent? By this I mean he is really spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore but Voldemort thinks he's spying on Dumbledore for him. If this is true, Voldemort would not expect him to show up. It would blow his cover. I don't think Voldemort was referring to Snape when he mentioned the missing DE's.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 12, 2004 3:44 pm (#380 of 2956)
Gina, tenpin bowling!!! I would give my arm to see that!!!
My sides are still hurting.
timrew - Jan 12, 2004 4:43 pm (#381 of 2956)
Yeah, tenpin bowling with the Death Eaters...
"You used a spell to get that strike, Malfoy!"
"No I didn't! It was pure skill, McNair! You're just jealous!"
"Skill? You couldn't hit a Death Eater with an 'Avada Kedavra' at two paces, you blond-haired, incompetent twit!"
"Avada Kedavra!"
"Okay, I take it all back!" (dies)
fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 7:29 am (#382 of 2956)
You'd want to watch that lot when the loser has to buy the beer.
I agree with Gina's theory about the three mentioned by Voldie. Like a lot of people, I saw the Karkarof = coward Snape = one who has left me forever, and didn't consider that there could be other interpretations. However, with time, since this was first pointed out [on this thread or Snape #1?] I've come to see the sense of this other view.
I'm not so sure that Snape is really good friends with the Malfoys, although I do think they have close ties somehow. This doesn't mean they like each other, or that Snape may not have included either Lucius, Narcissa, or both of his list of towering resentments. I can see the Snapes having been tenants or employees of the Malfoys in times past, I can see a clever Snape ancestor being backed in a business deal by a Malfoy, and losing control of his invention, I can even see a comely Snape ancestress being "taken advantage of" by a self-indulgent Malfoy--these are just a few of the ways the two families could be tied together, with, as a result, lordly assumption of patronage by Lucius, and a bitter acceptance, thinly veiled in gratitude, by Severus Snape. The way Sirius called him "Lucius Malfoy's lapdog", and Snape's angry reaction to it, suggests that Snape really doesn't like the Malfoys very much, although he may put a good face on things when they are around. I also get the impression that this dislike doesn't have much to do with Voldie and DE business per se.
Madame Librarian - Jan 13, 2004 8:15 am (#383 of 2956)
fidelio, I'd always envisioned the relationship between Snape and the Malfoys--particularly Lucius--as one of mutual advantage. There's no love lost between them, but they both recongize that at one time or another, they each can use each other to get ahead, reach a goal, etc.
For example, they probably each know of the other's involvment with the DEs--it's mutually advantagous to both to keep mum on this. Maybe Snape was offered a tutoring position in the Malfoy household and learned other things to hold over Lucius. Now Lucius keeps Snape relatively happy (with info, special regard amongst the elite of wizarding society, etc.) because the professor is head of his son's house and has certain academic powers. Snape, on the other hand, likes being cottoned to by someone as prominent as Lucius. Your scenario of past mistreatment also works-- Lucius may fear that it's payback time, so let's all get along (he knows how accomplished a potions master Snape is, not to mention his overall wizarding skill).
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2004 10:35 am (#384 of 2956)
fidelio, you have such a delicate way of phrasing such indelicate possibilities!
I think Snape growled at Sirius' 'lapdog' comment because it was a mean and nasty comment. I don't think it tells us much about the Malfoy/Snape relationship except that Lucius holds a bit of a rank over Snape (no surprise there) and maybe asks favours of him. But we could have suspected that to begin with considering the treatment Draco enjoys from Snape.
popkin - Jan 13, 2004 12:55 pm (#385 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 13, 2004 12:57 pm
I think fidelio makes a good point about the "lapdog" comment. If Snape were just upset at Sirius, I think he wouldn't have lost his feeling of superiority? Afterall, Snape believes himself to be a fine upstanding gentleman, and believes (believed) Sirius to be a rogue at best and a criminal at worst. Why would he stoop to Sirius' comment if there were not a ring of truth to it?
Leonean1 - Jan 13, 2004 1:14 pm (#386 of 2956)
I don't think I've seen this addressed before but I'm relatively new to the forum, and after much searching and reading I didn't find this. Who tutored Snape in Occlumency? And thanks to all for the analogies of what Occlumency is...
My initial thought was Voldemort or some other DE (Bellatrix? Malfoy?) who was fairly high up in the pecking order. But would this put Voldie at a disadvantage as far as Snape's talent working against him? I would assume that Volemort would want DE's to be good (adept at dark arts, ambitious, well-places, thugs, easily manipulated, etc), but not that good, if you know what I mean.
My second thought was Dumbledore tutored Snape prior to him leaving Hogwarts, perhaps in part to help Snape deal with how MWPP treated him and to head off another soul going over (fully) to the dark side. This may help explain why Dumbledore trusts Snape so implicitly -- because the dark side never really had him to begin with. But this explanation is a little to peaches-and-cream.
Third, Dumbledore tutored Snape as part of the deal to come back to Hogwarts, so as to protect him as a double agent (or triple agent or whatever he is...) from DEs out for revenge.
Any other possibilities? If this has been discussed, I would really appreciate someone pointing me to those posts!
Madame Librarian - Jan 13, 2004 1:22 pm (#387 of 2956)
Leoneanl, good question! Of all the possibilites, the most intriguing in the one where DD tutored Snape while he was a student at Hogwarts. It would mean they have a history of a trusting relationship before Snape had much to do with the DEs.
I'll pose another question--is it possible that Snape (or anyone for that matter) could have a natural tendency toward being a legilimens/occlumens? Would these wizards need minimal training? This could easily go off-topic, so if we get going on a discussion, we need to post to the appropriate thread.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2004 1:39 pm (#388 of 2956)
I think it's possible that Snape could have sought out this skill in light of the abuse he received as a child. It could be another way for him to protect himself.
But it absolutely serves him in his role as a spy. It's less important to me who taught him, and more important that Dumbledore knows he has this skill whereas Voldemort should not know. That shows Dumbledore's trust quite deeply because he knows Snape could lie to him. Even if Dumbledore is a better legilimens than Snape is an occlumens, there must still be a basis of trust involved I think.
fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 1:50 pm (#389 of 2956)
If he developed it as a result of childhood abuse, it might almost have been unconscious at first. There's a condition called elective mutism, where a victim responds to a specific, or to ongoing, trauma by not speaking. Given that, in the Wizarding World, your thoughts may by invaded by a skilled and determined Legelimens, I can see how the need might lead to such a result. After all, a domestic tyrant in the Wizarding World has so many more dreadful possibilities open to control family memebers--death curses, hexes, legilimency, and so on. If his da was determined to see into his wife and child's [or children's] minds to know what they were up to, I can envision young Sev instinctively learning to close off his mind to probing. This early skill might have received additional training and shaping later in life, but I agree with Gina--I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Snape was already an advanced Occlumens by the time he was Harry's age--in fact, this may be one reason why he has so little sympathy with Harry's efforts to learn it--if something comes naturally to you, it can be hard to appreciate how difficult it is for others.
Leonean1 - Jan 13, 2004 5:03 pm (#390 of 2956)
Good points regarding the natural occlumens possibility. I may have fallen into the trap of figuring that since Harry doesn't know what it is by age 15, no one knows what it is until at least age 15. Occlumens and legilimens are described as rare (or maybe obscure branch of magic -- I don't remember the wording exactly). And the fact that Moody and/or Lupin were not recruited to give Harry an intensive crash course during the holiday as preparation for his private lessons with Snape lead me to believe that perhaps occlumency and legilimency are inherently natural "abilities" that are refined with magic. Moody and Lupin don't *seem* to have other jobs, they're both fantastic DADA teachers, Dumbledore most likely knew for at least 2 weeks that Occlumency was the answer, and Harry certainly would have had a better response to learning. But it's Snape who's given the monumental task, and for these reasons I don't think the occlumency lessons are simply way to introduce more tension between the characters.
That casts a interesting read on Snape's school years -- talk about multi-dimensional. Say he was a natural legilimens/occlumens by adolesence. It doesn't seem like the sort of gift he'd go bragging about to his fellow DEs (nor does he seem like the type to do so), and he really could have done some mental damage to MWPP but doesn't appear to have done so. Now I'm wondering did he bide his time and refine his skill? Did he miss an opportunity to just let off some steam?
popkin - Jan 13, 2004 10:15 pm (#391 of 2956)
On the Mark Evans thread I introduced the idea that Snape and Lily might have communicated via occlumency and legilimency. While there is certainly no real evidence to support that thought, it is a fun one to ponder (and all the thought that led up to that conclusion was pretty entertaining).
Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more dark magic than most seventh years. It wouldn't be too surprising if he had also honed his skills as an occlumens/legilimens before he became a student. And if he was doing a good deal of dark magic at home before attending Hogwarts, he would very likely have wanted to keep it secret - so occlumency might have come in handy around home.
Leonean1 - Jan 14, 2004 6:44 am (#392 of 2956)
Thanks for mentioning the your posts popkin! I'll go read them now...
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 15, 2004 10:00 pm (#393 of 2956)
Snape says something to the effect -of mundane minds not being good at occlumency- when he begins lessons with Harry. Wouldn't there be a 'natural talent' element in addition to working hard and good tutoring to occlumency?
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 3:13 am (#394 of 2956)
when you think of it, it seems indeed that you need some "natural talent" to be good at occlumency, but I would say talent like will, very strong will. Snape said that qualities required for occlumency and for repelling the impero curse are similar (I don't have my book so I don't have the exact quote), and undoubtlessly you need a very strong will to repell an impero curse. Harry showed such a will when he resisted to LV in the graveyard, wand versus wand. Would then Snape have such a will ? After all, he's a "superb occlumens" ! What do you think of it ?
Devika - Jan 16, 2004 4:55 am (#395 of 2956)
Well... Harry's mind is not mundane, whatever Snape might think and it is his strong will power and control that helps him to develop such abilities. As for Snape, I have no doubt that he is not only a very powerful wizard but also someone with a very strong ability to control his own emotions. He has usually come across as the most stoic of the teachers and none of his emotions except hate, seem to have affected him much, at least externally. He does seem to have a very strong ability to keep his emotions under check at most times. And if we are right in imagining that Snape is spying for DD, then it must be these powers that help him to hoodwink Voldy, who himself is quite a good legimens.
HP Fan - Jan 16, 2004 8:03 am (#396 of 2956)
Perhaps Snape is so good at Occlumens because he can control his emotions to such an extent. As you say the only emotions we really see Snape showing are hatred and anger - yet his anger always seems to me to be suppressed - like he's not giving into it. I got that impression where he catches Harry in the Pensive - he could have done Harry some serious damage there - it's the only time we've really seen him lose it and even then it seems controlled aiming at getting Harry out of the room as fast as he can so he doesn't hurt him. Just my impression. But if that is case it shows how much self-control he has, and we've had it right from his mouth that people who "wear their hearts on their sleeves" and cannot control their emotions are no good at Occulmency not sure what page it is my books not with me at the moment and I can't remember the whole quote.
Gina R Snape - Jan 16, 2004 8:47 am (#397 of 2956)
I agree HP Fan. Something tells me if Snape let loose his anger it would be an awesome, terrifying scene. Maybe the extent of his own anger frightened even him, and lead to his defection from the Death Eaters.
Harry is lucky he is who he is. I'm not so sure Snape would have been so "nice" to another student. JKR said DD keeps him in Potions to keep him in check. My mind fills with all kinds of possibilities if he were truly let loose to teach DADA.
Only JKR knows for sure what Snape is capable of. But I'd say we've got a good idea.
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 12:28 pm (#398 of 2956)
to control one's emotions as Snape does is a sign of a strong will in my opinion. The difference with Harry is that Snape uses his will to control his emotions and not Harry
Gina R Snape - Jan 16, 2004 12:37 pm (#399 of 2956)
Do you think Harry tries to control other people? And Snape only tries to control himself? Or do mean just in the context of the pensieve scene? Because I think Snape tries to control his students all the time in the classroom. He owns the classroom and merlin help the one who disrupts that!
Come to think of it, I thought he used remarkable self-control in CoS when Harry set off the fireworks and Hermione stole the boomslang skin for the polyjuice potion.
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 1:00 pm (#400 of 2956)
Gina, I don't think that Harry tries to control other people but he uses his will to face danger, to face people, foes... Snape uses his will to control his own emotions and has some success in it all the time or nearly, that's why he's so good at occlumency. And yes, he tries to control his students, I didn't think of it in that way. I was just trying to think of how powerful a will he may have and to express myself clearly ;-)
Not to belabor a point (but, um, well here goes)--if my whacko suggestion has any merit at all, then Snape would for sure not do anything strange to the food if he knew he had to dine in company. For certain festive events he just has to be there.
Ciao. Barb
septentrion - Jan 5, 2004 12:13 pm (#352 of 2956)
Julia, Gina is president of "in detention with Snape" club but I think she wouldn't care if I welcome you first in the club. The more, the funnier !
I've checked the mugglenet essay and I'll try to add my two knuts.
About Draco suggesting Snape becoming Hogwarts headmaster in CoS, I'd say that Draco was well informed at a time when his father was influential in the school. Afterwards, his information became obsolete of course.
Snape being the man who made the muggles hang upside down at the quidditch world cup : it's hard for me to believe it. Sure he can be very mean and nasty, but to that point ? more, we haven't heard of him during the QWC.
I don't think either that he knew about Lucius opening the chamber of secrets. I'm sure that he had known, he had told it to DD. After all, Hogwarts gives him a respectable position, wages, and maybe one day the job of DADA teacher. How could he have let done something which would have lead to close the scool ? Even if Lucius is his friend, and I believe so, he would have save his own neck first.
I've often wondered about Snape's sudden movement at the end of GoF, and I like caput draconis' explanation. It fits to me.
Is Snape still a death eater or DD's supporter ? I'm inclined to believe that he's DD's supporter, but I can't think of how he gets LV's(or death eaters)trust, which is essential to spy above them.
as for the Great Question : did Snape jinxed the DADA position ? I have my own theory : I think the position is kind of "self-jinxed" until its "natural owner" is in age, I mean Harry Potter. Harry made incredibly good work with the DA, he's a natural teacher, and very skilled in DADA, so the job should be for him, but he's too young. I think he could get it after his last year in Hogwarts. Poor Severus will have to stay potions master ! (could I be wrong !)
Julia. - Jan 5, 2004 12:45 pm (#353 of 2956)
Septentrion, Thanks for the welcome
Just a few comments on your comments... "As for the Great Question : did Snape jinxed the DADA position ? I have my own theory : I think the position is kind of "self-jinxed" until its "natural owner" is in age, I mean Harry Potter. Harry made incredibly good work with the DA, he's a natural teacher, and very skilled in DADA, so the job should be for him, but he's too young. I think he could get it after his last year in Hogwarts. Poor Severus will have to stay potions master ! (could I be wrong !)"
I couldn't agree with you more!
"About Draco suggesting Snape becoming Hogwarts headmaster in CoS, I'd say that Draco was well informed at a time when his father was influential in the school. Afterwards, his information became obsolete of course."
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Lucius is still VERY influential at Hogwarts. He may not be a school Governor, but he still has a lot of money, and he's still a very powerful dark wizard, and thus has a lot of influence over what goes on. Remember that in PoA when Hagrid made his case for Buckbeak, (the second time of course, the first was a complete disaster) despite his good defence, they still killed Buckbeak. Hagrid was quoted as saying something along the lines of "Lucius Malfoy's got that whole committee in his pocket." (I'm at work and the exact quote and citation escapes me at the moment) But I think this shows that Malfoy still has a lot of say about what goes on. However, I'm going to stop now, as this is a Snape thread, not a Malfoy Sr. one.
Gina R Snape - Jan 5, 2004 1:53 pm (#354 of 2956)
Welcome, Julie. I am the President of the Detention with Snape club, and we are always happy to have new members.
If the DADA position is self-jinxed, then Snape will positively have kittens for days if Harry gets the job. I think that would be enough for him to quit--protection or no protection!
I don't buy the idea that Snape was the one who turned the muggles upside down at the World Cup. Some of the ideas were really stretching it, and that one more than others in my opinion. But he may have been part of the hijinx as a way of hanging with Lucius. During the year he as the Hogwarts excuse. But we don't know what he gets up to during the summer (except in fanfic of course!).
And I do firmly believe Snape is very friendly with Lucius. I suspect it was part of the plan for Snape to come to Hogwarts, and for Voldemort and company to think he is the Dark Lord's loyal servant at Hogwarts, meanwhile he's really serving Dumbledore.
To that end, I don't believe for a second that he was in on the diary plan. He was genuinely worried when Ginny was taken into the chamber. (Such a shame that scene was changed in the movie. Snape gasping and grabbing the chair, his knuckles going white, would have been a terrific reaction shot).
Malfoy didn't have influence over Hogwarts. He had influence over the MoM Committee regarding Buckbeak. Big difference. Plus, we of course now know that the would-be animal executioner is an active Death Eater.
We have never seen evidence that Snape doesn't eat with others at Hogwarts to my recollection. We know he won't eat at 12 Grimmauld Place. But I suspect he a)doesn't want to dine with them; and b)wouldn't dine in the house of his enemy Sirius. It's bad enough he has to go there to begin with! It's enough...
I do wonder, though, about Snape ending his first meeting with Harry for lessons in order to be at the Death Eater 'escape party.' Man that would make a great piece of fanfic!
Weeny Owl - Jan 5, 2004 8:24 pm (#355 of 2956)
Gina:
Voldie himself mentions Lucius indulging in a bit of Muggle torture at the Quidditch World Cup, and while it's open to interpretation, I would agree that it was Ferret Boy's father and not Snape who did the upside down thing. Snape could have been there, of course.
I think he doesn't eat at 12 Grimmauld Place for two reasons... what you said about the house of his enemy, but also because he'd have to be around the students he teaches. I doubt if he would want them to see him as a "family friend/visitor" after school begins again. Keeping that distance seems totally in character.
The scene in GoF where Harry is trying to get to Dumbledore's office to tell him about Crouch can be seen in a few ways, and I haven't quite decided if he was trying to help Harry in his typical Slytherin way or if he was just having fun frustrating Harry.
AriadneSeverine - Jan 6, 2004 10:45 am (#356 of 2956)
Hey Gina! Guess who's back: good to see you on form as usual...
I wouldn't be surprised if it were just Severus having his bit of fun frustrating Harry - it must be quite amusing watching one of your students who looks a lot like his father (who once turned you upside down) start getting flustered at the flick of a switch.
And in response to Weeny Owl about eating with them at 12 Grimmauld place: I do agree with you, but I also think that he would just be uncomfortable (which could lead to anger and frustration, knowing our beloved Potions Master) sitting with people who no matter what he does, will always distrust/dislike him. I can see him thinking "Oh to Hell with them all!" and swearing to have as little to do with them as possible, in the socialising sense...
Romana - Jan 7, 2004 5:03 am (#357 of 2956)
Just to add a knut or two about Severus Snape and Lucius Malfoy. What if Lucius Malfoy fooled Snape into thinking that he was no longer a Death Eater and that he had really changed on to the side of good? As has been said, Snape was genuinely worried when Ginny got trapped in the Chamber of Secrets. Draco Malfoy seemed to know an awful lot about what was going on at the school for the first few years, could this be Snape gossiping with his old friend Lucius? I say this because of the scene in GoF when Harry names Malfoy as a Death Eater, remember Snape's reaction? Can't type it I haven't got the book with me. What if he was surprised?
I hope I am right to a degree, because it would lead to a simply wonderful confrontation scene between Malfoy and Snape... I really wouldn'd want to be in Malfoy's shoes at that point!
One other thing... Does anyone have a theory as to why Snape followed DD and McGonagall into the champoins room when Hary's name came out of the Goblet in GoF? Every other person has a reason to be there: E.g. DD, headmaster, McGonagall deputy head, and Head of Griffindor House, the three other heads, because of their champinons, the organisers and Percy, because he is the organisers assistant. I can't remember if Mrs Weasly was there, but if she was she would also have a valid reason for being there because of Harry. But the Poitons master? What's he going to do? Poison him? (as much as he'd like to...)
P.s. If Snape is a pure blood wizard (which I assume he is) And James is a pure blood wizard, it means they are related... Just a thought
P.P.s That means that Harry Draco and Ron could be related too... Now the world is getting too complicated. I think I'll stop about here.
septentrion - Jan 7, 2004 5:19 am (#358 of 2956)
If Snape was surprised when Harry named L. Malfoy as a death eater; it didn't lead obviously to a confrontation. In fact, I don't think you're right on that point, Romana. I'm sure that Snape have never been fooled about Lucius' nature. Surely he didn't know everything Lucius was up to like opening the chamber of secrets, but surely too he knew Lucius was adept of dark arts and LV.
About the reason why Snape came into the champions' room after their names had gone out of the goblet of fire : good question, I have to think about it.
Peregrine - Jan 7, 2004 8:21 am (#359 of 2956)
I think he was just eager for a chance to show everyone that Harry was somehow breaking the rules again.
Gina R Snape - Jan 7, 2004 9:21 am (#360 of 2956)
I think that is one subtle example of how Snape and McGonagall form a triumverate with Dumbledore. They are his team, his inner circle. If DD and McGonagall are there, Snape is going to be there. Even if not for Harry specifically, then because the event is taking place at Hogwarts and DD will require the attention of his two trusted top staff to assist in every aspect of the championship.
Oh, and welcome back Ariadne. Glad to see you.
Julia. - Jan 7, 2004 12:49 pm (#361 of 2956)
I agree Gina. I think the whole point of having Snape go in the little room with Dumbledore and McGonnagal was to show that he is part of the "Big Three" of Hogwarts staff, or the "Trio," if you will. It was no mistake that those three were there in that scene, as well as during the interrogation of Barty Crouch Jr. in GoF. Snape and McGonnagal are two of Dumbledore's most trusted people, and having Snape in that room (the one after Harry's name is drawn from the GoF, that is) shows that brilliantly.
Slyangel - Jan 7, 2004 5:25 pm (#362 of 2956)
I'm so ashamed to admit to not knowing this, but isn't Snape deputy headmaster? I thought I read that somewhere--like if DD was incapacitated and then McGonagal, Snape would be next in line (maybe I'm just confused).
Argh, I wish I had time to read through every single Snape comment, so this is probably redundant material (but you like having an excuse to analyze and re-analyze the Potions Master, admit it ;-): Surely Snape's "worst memory" was a bit more, er, dramatic than a childhood humiliation?
Feel free to ignore that query if it's been done to death.
Also, am I the only one wondering if Snape was present in the cemetary at the end of GoF? He seemed genuinely surprised at Voldemort's return (the infirmary scene in GoF), but could he have been acting? What sort of treatment was he subjected to if he *wasn't* present at V's rebirthing ceremony? *Shudders* It obviously would've been quite sadistic, especially considering how traumatized he seemed when DD sent him away at the end of GoF to take care of business.
Has anyone made predictions concerning Snape's role as a double agent? And why *hasn't* he gotten the position of DADA professor? Is it because DD felt Snape would be showing off his dark arts talent, and he wanted to prevent awkward questions from parents (and possibly the MoM)?
Also, is there a thread for Book 6 predictions?
P.S. Gina R Snape, I love your avatar--that is the most inventive SS incarnation I've seen :-) Sev-severi-sev-severi-sev-sev-er-ee, when you're with Sev'rus Snape, you're lucky 's can be! Sev-severi-sev-severi-sev-sev-er-oo, he can give me detention, bet you'd like one too!
Weeny Owl - Jan 7, 2004 8:17 pm (#363 of 2956)
I've been rereading the part where Snape makes a sudden movement after Harry mentions to Fudge that Lucius Malfoy was one of the Death Eaters at the rebirthing.
I'm wondering if Snape was just startled to hear Malfoy's name actually mentioned, and looked at Fudge to see how HE would react. Perhaps Snape wonders just how close the Minister of Magic and Lucius are.
Granted, that wasn't explained in the fifth book, but where Snape had gone after the scene in the hospital wing wasn't explained either.
septentrion - Jan 8, 2004 2:37 am (#364 of 2956)
Gina : "I think that is one subtle example of how Snape and McGonagall form a triumverate with Dumbledore"
thanks Gina for avoiding me a long pain while trying to find a fitting explanation ;-) I quite agree with you, JKR builts a triumvirate book after book. Maybe she's preparing the reconciliation between Hogwarts houses...
Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2004 7:03 am (#365 of 2956)
Thanks for the compliment, Slyangel. But I got sick of Ms. Poppins and changed it back to Detention Snape. (For now! I'm a compulsive avatar-changer I admit).
I too wonder how close Fudge and Lucius were at that point. Lucius Malfoy seems to have Fudge in his pocket throughout OoP. So I would guess pretty tight. Maybe Snape wants Lucius to be tight with Fudge for some reason and Harry's revelation spoils his cover. Because there's no doubt in my mind that Snape knew Malfoy would be at LV's rebirthing.
And I don't think there was surprise in Snape that LV rose again. I think it's the horror and memories and knowledge of what comes next and just the story itself would be enough to elicit some sort of emotion from Snape. Knowing how well he tends to mask his emotions (because I think even in full rage we only see a fraction of what is going on inside him), I can only imagine the freak-out and/or meltdown Sev had in private. And of course, his dark mark would tell him enough of the return, even if not the details of the return.
So, here is a thought for everyone, on a different topic. A friend of mine who is very very pro-Snape came up with the theory that maybe Snape is protecting Harry for Lord Voldemort's purposes, not for Dumbledore's. So that at some point he can deliver the boy to the Dark Lord. I don't buy it for several reasons. But I throw it out there for your thoughts.
Peregrine - Jan 8, 2004 7:44 am (#366 of 2956)
I would probably be behind that theory if I wasn?t so convinced that Snape is a good guy (hm, having the words ?good? and ?Snape? in the same sentence like that looks funny). But even if he were on wrong side, what?s he waiting for? Voldemort has been back, more or less, for two books and Snape?s had plenty of opportunities to kidnap Harry and whisk him away to the Dark Lord. Unless Snape has something very specific in mind for Harry and has to get the timing just right (like Barty Jr. did), I don?t see that happening. And at this point, Voldemort is so twitchy and anxious when it comes to Harry; I can?t see Snape making him wait. The sooner he brings him Harry, the sooner Voldemort will reward him.
Come to think of it, why hasn?t Voldemort demanded Snape bring him Harry? I would think Snape?s certainly smart enough to do it without getting caught.
SarcasticGinny - Jan 8, 2004 8:26 am (#367 of 2956)
I think that after the wand-incedent in GOF, Voldemort wants the prophecy because he thinks it will tell him how to kill Harry. Otherwise, on the first day of school he could have said, "Sev, let me hide in your storage cabinet, keep Potter after class, and I'll jump out and A.K. him." I think Voldemort, when he isn't a furiously foolish prat like he is in the Dept. of Mysteries, is carefully plotting how to get the knowlege of how take down Harry before he tries to do so, and therefore hasn't asked Snape for help...yet.
Slyangel - Jan 8, 2004 6:41 pm (#368 of 2956)
I think that may very well be an integral part of Book 6. Why couldn't Snape bring Harry to V? I can think of subtle ways Severus could lure Harry, drug him, smuggle him out of Hogwarts--surely Voldemort has thought of this? Perhaps he'll threaten, "Bring me Potter or DIE!" (Because I really believe V would want to do the honors himself; and not due to a lack of faith in his DEs, but out of a sadistic desire to be Harry's executioner.) Perhaps a DE, no, wait, perhaps Lucius will acquire sensitive info from Draco to the effect that Snape is not all that he seems, and Lucius will tip off V; then V, riddled with suspicion and anxious for closure, will deliver his ultimatum. That would put my (our) beloved Snape in one heck of a position :-\
I've been rereading the part where Snape makes a sudden movement after Harry mentions to Fudge that Lucius Malfoy was one of the Death Eaters at the rebirthing. I'm wondering if Snape was just startled to hear Malfoy's name actually mentioned, and looked at Fudge to see how HE would react.
Yes, I think you're right about that. I think he wanted to see how Fudge would react.
Perhaps Snape wonders just how close the Minister of Magic and Lucius are.
I think a possibility is that Fudge is being controlled by way of an Imperius curse, through Lucius. I know there's no logical reason to suspect this, because Fudge does seem awfully dense (my, but he makes a convincing politician!). I just wonder if that obliviousness is part and parcel his personality, or if he might've cast a blind eye on all evidence of V's return, previously, because he's being controlled.
Edited to say: By the way, I know that Fudge distrusted DD before, and having Umbridge and Lucius whispering in his ear certainly would've had an impact on his loyalties. If Book 6 opens with Fudge having reverted to his obstinate old self *then* I'll have no other choice but to think he's being controlled (!!).
A friend of mine who is very very pro-Snape came up with the theory that maybe Snape is protecting Harry for Lord Voldemort's purposes, not for Dumbledore's.
Nooooooooooo. No way. Never. What purpose? Now that V has a body he no longer needs him; we *know* he wants him dead (otherwise V wouldn't have tried to kill him in GoF...and SS, and CoS, and OotP). Unless there's been a change in plans. Nah, I doubt it. I think he suspects that it's a kill-or-be-killed scenario, though the evidence is now lost forever to him.
HP Fan - Jan 9, 2004 11:43 am (#369 of 2956)
I don't think it has been said anywhere that Snape is deputy-head. I think that Hogwarts only has one deputy-head [though unusual for a secondary school of that size - however it is a school for Witch Craft and Wizardry so it shouldn't be that surprising I suppose]and that is McGonagall. However having said that I think, based on my old school's hierarchical system, that Snape is what we called a "Senior Teacher" ie. on the senior management team that is headed by the Head and deputies. As such he would be privy to more information than ordinary teachers and more involved. In addition I think that when McGonagall became temporary head it would be logical to assume that Snape became the temporary deputy-head. Therefore it is natural that he would be part of Harry's rescue party after the Harry returns to Hogwarts in GoF, and that he would be present in the scene in the chamber off the Great Hall at the start of the tournament.
Also to continue a point someone made earlier [sorry I've a memory like a sieve where names are concerned and can't remember who that someone is] McGonagall and Snape are the only members of staff who [to my knowledge/memory] have accepted an order or request of action from DD without a question. Madam Pumfrey questions him when he wants to speak to Harry and Hermione alone in PoA and though I can't remember off hand other instances in detail I am sure there have been a couple more occasions of this as well. [My brain's not working today I think someone's slipped me a draught of Forget fulness potion somewhere along the line.] I'll stop posting now before I do my brain an injury by straining it to remember too much information. Trying to remember the contents of 23 posts and my reactions plus canon evidence to back up what I'm saying - not good for mind. Being carted off to St Mungo's as type.
popkin - Jan 10, 2004 11:24 am (#370 of 2956)
I'm backing up just a bit to right after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet of Fire, and Snape follows him into the side room. Snape may have wanted to make sure that Harry was allowed to compete, and not dismissed because he was underage and chosen "illegally". If Snape was the "most loyal servant" of Voldemort, that would mean that he was orchestrating all the events of GOF, all the while manipulating Crouch Jr. to think himself in charge.
Also, I have never noticed Snape eating anything. If he takes his meals in solitude, that could be evidence in support of the "Snape is a vampire" theory. But that's another thread.
Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2004 11:26 am (#371 of 2956)
popkin, your last comment about eating echoes posts I made a week of so ago. Of course, I couldn't support my possible false memory with any canon text, but I have this feeling that something is up with dear Snape preferring to eat solo in his dungeon.
Ciao. Barb
Edit: You might want to read this post and the few following (where my idea get pretty much shot down, oh well).
Madame Librarian 1/5/04 11:36am
popkin - Jan 10, 2004 11:31 am (#372 of 2956)
Well, if he's munching down on bloodsicles, he might want to keep it a secret.
Sorry, I forgot who had mentioned the meals alone, or I would have given you credit for introducing the subject.
Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2004 11:39 am (#373 of 2956)
That's OK, I'm not sure I should be so ready to admit it. One of these days, I'll try to search the books thoroughly to see if I can find a shred of canon evidence for the eating alone comment. I remember it (again, I may have dreamed it) as part of one of those descriptive comments one kid makes to another, or the author makes to the reader to introduce or re-introduce a standing character. If that's true, it would be at the beginning of one of the earlier books. Something like, "Snape, the Head of Slytherin, was Harry's least favorite professor. Though considered a cold and demanding teacher by all, and recognized to be on cool terms with the rest of the staff--he preferred to dine alone in his dark dungeon of an office, and was rarely seen at the head table--the Potions Master seemed to take special satisfaction in making Harry's life miserable."
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 10, 2004 12:09 pm (#374 of 2956)
In the GoF scene, Snape did not seem keen on Harry participating. I still think Crouch was the Dark Lord's most loyal servant, but that Snape is NOT the one who has 'left forever.'
Barb, I definitely would remember if there was a passing comment like the one above. JKR has mentioned Snape and his dungeon-dwelling, but I'd be willing to wager a case of Snog that the only comment about Snape not eating with others was in OoP about not eating in Sirius' house. But if you come up with anything, please do post it here. I would be quite quite interested.
Edit: In fact, there are many scenes where Harry looks up at the head table and sees Snape there either watching him, glaring at someone else, or completely ignoring people. And, like someone mentioned above, there was also Christmas dinner. I hope he didn't eat the tripe...
Romana - Jan 12, 2004 1:11 am (#375 of 2956)
With regard to the eating, I think it would look pretty odd if Snape was at the teachers table during mealtimes and NOT eating don't you?
Also with regard to the 'one has left me forever' bit, I am convinced Snape is the one Voldemort is on about. Specifically because of Snape reaction to Karkaroff (sorry can't spell). 'Very well flee! I shall remain at Hogwarts' that doesn't sound like a coward running away to me. Karkaroff DID run away, I'm sure it mentions that somewhere. I don't think Snape has any intention of leaving Hogwarts.
popkin - Jan 12, 2004 4:11 am (#376 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 12, 2004 4:13 am
If Lucius and Snape have anything resembling a friendship, and they apparently do, I don't see how Snape can be the "one who has left [Voldemort] forever". Surely Lucius would have Snape killed to make points with the Dark Lord. Surely Voldemort would not leave Snape alive for an entire year after stating, in front of his highest ranking Death Eaters, that he would kill him.
I think that Snape is either Voldemort's "most trusted servant" (and not Crouch Jr., as we have supposed), or he simply arrived late to the meeting to pose as a loyal DE while actually spying for the Order and Voldemort passed his empty place in line in silence. After all, if Voldemort believes Snape to be undermining Dumbledore from inside Hogwarts, wouldn't he know that Snape would be late for the meeting since he can't apparate from his post?
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 12, 2004 9:10 am (#377 of 2956)
I don't think that Snape is his most trusted servant. remember in GoF (page 651, US)Voldemort says as he stops at the largest gap:
"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, two cowardly to return... he will pay. One, whoo I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already rentered my service."
Voldemort goes on to say that his most faithful servant is at Hogwarts and that it was through his efforts that Harry arrived at the birthing party.
I don't recall Snape helping Harry get to the goblet. Snape didn't really want Harry in the contest.
I do not like where this is leading... snape might die...
Gina R Snape - Jan 12, 2004 11:32 am (#378 of 2956)
Ok, I think we need to look at this from Voldemort's perspective
JKR plays up Karkaroff's cowardice to make us think he is the one too cowardly to return. But Karkaroff went to trial and squealed on his fellow death eaters. Then he fled the country. I think this would make the Dark Lord see him as the one who has left him forever and must be killed.
Snape, on the other hand, keeps a low profile. The Dark Lord might interpret his lackof appearance as cowardice, that's he's too afraid to show up. Therefore, Snape will pay. I think at the end of GoF, Dumbledore sent Snape to the Dark Lord to prostrate himself before him, and beg forgiveness and to ask to be let back into the fold. As has been said before, he can use the "no disapparating out of Hogwarts" as an excuse not to show earlier. And he can say "when I saw Potter return to the school, I knew you would need me..." plus he can report on what happened to Barty Crouch Jr. as a way to get back in the Dark Lord's favour and provide useful information at the same time.
The question then is, what happened to Karkaroff? Will we hear of his demise?
Will we ever get to see direct evidence of Snape's activities? Tea at Malfoy Mansion? Attendance at a DE meeting? Consoling Narcissa? Tenpin bowling with "da DE boyz" on Saturday night?
I've often found a fanfic devise where Malfoy Sr. comes to Hogwarts to pay a visit and stir up trouble. I just don't see this as realistically happening in any of the books so far, nor in the future. Had Harry continued Occlumency lessons with Snape, I supposed he might witness some of Snape's activities. But maybe he'll have more dreams, and see the Dark Lord with Snape the way he saw him with Avery. That would be interesting too.
In any event, there's a reason why Snape is able to stay alive and keep up his spying activities for the Order. And I doubt he'd be able to do that if he was the one who 'left forever' and there were plans for the Dark Lord to arrange a permanent nap.
I Am Used Vlad - Jan 12, 2004 3:03 pm (#379 of 2956)
Isn't Snape a double agent? By this I mean he is really spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore but Voldemort thinks he's spying on Dumbledore for him. If this is true, Voldemort would not expect him to show up. It would blow his cover. I don't think Voldemort was referring to Snape when he mentioned the missing DE's.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 12, 2004 3:44 pm (#380 of 2956)
Gina, tenpin bowling!!! I would give my arm to see that!!!
My sides are still hurting.
timrew - Jan 12, 2004 4:43 pm (#381 of 2956)
Yeah, tenpin bowling with the Death Eaters...
"You used a spell to get that strike, Malfoy!"
"No I didn't! It was pure skill, McNair! You're just jealous!"
"Skill? You couldn't hit a Death Eater with an 'Avada Kedavra' at two paces, you blond-haired, incompetent twit!"
"Avada Kedavra!"
"Okay, I take it all back!" (dies)
fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 7:29 am (#382 of 2956)
You'd want to watch that lot when the loser has to buy the beer.
I agree with Gina's theory about the three mentioned by Voldie. Like a lot of people, I saw the Karkarof = coward Snape = one who has left me forever, and didn't consider that there could be other interpretations. However, with time, since this was first pointed out [on this thread or Snape #1?] I've come to see the sense of this other view.
I'm not so sure that Snape is really good friends with the Malfoys, although I do think they have close ties somehow. This doesn't mean they like each other, or that Snape may not have included either Lucius, Narcissa, or both of his list of towering resentments. I can see the Snapes having been tenants or employees of the Malfoys in times past, I can see a clever Snape ancestor being backed in a business deal by a Malfoy, and losing control of his invention, I can even see a comely Snape ancestress being "taken advantage of" by a self-indulgent Malfoy--these are just a few of the ways the two families could be tied together, with, as a result, lordly assumption of patronage by Lucius, and a bitter acceptance, thinly veiled in gratitude, by Severus Snape. The way Sirius called him "Lucius Malfoy's lapdog", and Snape's angry reaction to it, suggests that Snape really doesn't like the Malfoys very much, although he may put a good face on things when they are around. I also get the impression that this dislike doesn't have much to do with Voldie and DE business per se.
Madame Librarian - Jan 13, 2004 8:15 am (#383 of 2956)
fidelio, I'd always envisioned the relationship between Snape and the Malfoys--particularly Lucius--as one of mutual advantage. There's no love lost between them, but they both recongize that at one time or another, they each can use each other to get ahead, reach a goal, etc.
For example, they probably each know of the other's involvment with the DEs--it's mutually advantagous to both to keep mum on this. Maybe Snape was offered a tutoring position in the Malfoy household and learned other things to hold over Lucius. Now Lucius keeps Snape relatively happy (with info, special regard amongst the elite of wizarding society, etc.) because the professor is head of his son's house and has certain academic powers. Snape, on the other hand, likes being cottoned to by someone as prominent as Lucius. Your scenario of past mistreatment also works-- Lucius may fear that it's payback time, so let's all get along (he knows how accomplished a potions master Snape is, not to mention his overall wizarding skill).
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2004 10:35 am (#384 of 2956)
fidelio, you have such a delicate way of phrasing such indelicate possibilities!
I think Snape growled at Sirius' 'lapdog' comment because it was a mean and nasty comment. I don't think it tells us much about the Malfoy/Snape relationship except that Lucius holds a bit of a rank over Snape (no surprise there) and maybe asks favours of him. But we could have suspected that to begin with considering the treatment Draco enjoys from Snape.
popkin - Jan 13, 2004 12:55 pm (#385 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 13, 2004 12:57 pm
I think fidelio makes a good point about the "lapdog" comment. If Snape were just upset at Sirius, I think he wouldn't have lost his feeling of superiority? Afterall, Snape believes himself to be a fine upstanding gentleman, and believes (believed) Sirius to be a rogue at best and a criminal at worst. Why would he stoop to Sirius' comment if there were not a ring of truth to it?
Leonean1 - Jan 13, 2004 1:14 pm (#386 of 2956)
I don't think I've seen this addressed before but I'm relatively new to the forum, and after much searching and reading I didn't find this. Who tutored Snape in Occlumency? And thanks to all for the analogies of what Occlumency is...
My initial thought was Voldemort or some other DE (Bellatrix? Malfoy?) who was fairly high up in the pecking order. But would this put Voldie at a disadvantage as far as Snape's talent working against him? I would assume that Volemort would want DE's to be good (adept at dark arts, ambitious, well-places, thugs, easily manipulated, etc), but not that good, if you know what I mean.
My second thought was Dumbledore tutored Snape prior to him leaving Hogwarts, perhaps in part to help Snape deal with how MWPP treated him and to head off another soul going over (fully) to the dark side. This may help explain why Dumbledore trusts Snape so implicitly -- because the dark side never really had him to begin with. But this explanation is a little to peaches-and-cream.
Third, Dumbledore tutored Snape as part of the deal to come back to Hogwarts, so as to protect him as a double agent (or triple agent or whatever he is...) from DEs out for revenge.
Any other possibilities? If this has been discussed, I would really appreciate someone pointing me to those posts!
Madame Librarian - Jan 13, 2004 1:22 pm (#387 of 2956)
Leoneanl, good question! Of all the possibilites, the most intriguing in the one where DD tutored Snape while he was a student at Hogwarts. It would mean they have a history of a trusting relationship before Snape had much to do with the DEs.
I'll pose another question--is it possible that Snape (or anyone for that matter) could have a natural tendency toward being a legilimens/occlumens? Would these wizards need minimal training? This could easily go off-topic, so if we get going on a discussion, we need to post to the appropriate thread.
Ciao. Barb
Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2004 1:39 pm (#388 of 2956)
I think it's possible that Snape could have sought out this skill in light of the abuse he received as a child. It could be another way for him to protect himself.
But it absolutely serves him in his role as a spy. It's less important to me who taught him, and more important that Dumbledore knows he has this skill whereas Voldemort should not know. That shows Dumbledore's trust quite deeply because he knows Snape could lie to him. Even if Dumbledore is a better legilimens than Snape is an occlumens, there must still be a basis of trust involved I think.
fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 1:50 pm (#389 of 2956)
If he developed it as a result of childhood abuse, it might almost have been unconscious at first. There's a condition called elective mutism, where a victim responds to a specific, or to ongoing, trauma by not speaking. Given that, in the Wizarding World, your thoughts may by invaded by a skilled and determined Legelimens, I can see how the need might lead to such a result. After all, a domestic tyrant in the Wizarding World has so many more dreadful possibilities open to control family memebers--death curses, hexes, legilimency, and so on. If his da was determined to see into his wife and child's [or children's] minds to know what they were up to, I can envision young Sev instinctively learning to close off his mind to probing. This early skill might have received additional training and shaping later in life, but I agree with Gina--I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Snape was already an advanced Occlumens by the time he was Harry's age--in fact, this may be one reason why he has so little sympathy with Harry's efforts to learn it--if something comes naturally to you, it can be hard to appreciate how difficult it is for others.
Leonean1 - Jan 13, 2004 5:03 pm (#390 of 2956)
Good points regarding the natural occlumens possibility. I may have fallen into the trap of figuring that since Harry doesn't know what it is by age 15, no one knows what it is until at least age 15. Occlumens and legilimens are described as rare (or maybe obscure branch of magic -- I don't remember the wording exactly). And the fact that Moody and/or Lupin were not recruited to give Harry an intensive crash course during the holiday as preparation for his private lessons with Snape lead me to believe that perhaps occlumency and legilimency are inherently natural "abilities" that are refined with magic. Moody and Lupin don't *seem* to have other jobs, they're both fantastic DADA teachers, Dumbledore most likely knew for at least 2 weeks that Occlumency was the answer, and Harry certainly would have had a better response to learning. But it's Snape who's given the monumental task, and for these reasons I don't think the occlumency lessons are simply way to introduce more tension between the characters.
That casts a interesting read on Snape's school years -- talk about multi-dimensional. Say he was a natural legilimens/occlumens by adolesence. It doesn't seem like the sort of gift he'd go bragging about to his fellow DEs (nor does he seem like the type to do so), and he really could have done some mental damage to MWPP but doesn't appear to have done so. Now I'm wondering did he bide his time and refine his skill? Did he miss an opportunity to just let off some steam?
popkin - Jan 13, 2004 10:15 pm (#391 of 2956)
On the Mark Evans thread I introduced the idea that Snape and Lily might have communicated via occlumency and legilimency. While there is certainly no real evidence to support that thought, it is a fun one to ponder (and all the thought that led up to that conclusion was pretty entertaining).
Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more dark magic than most seventh years. It wouldn't be too surprising if he had also honed his skills as an occlumens/legilimens before he became a student. And if he was doing a good deal of dark magic at home before attending Hogwarts, he would very likely have wanted to keep it secret - so occlumency might have come in handy around home.
Leonean1 - Jan 14, 2004 6:44 am (#392 of 2956)
Thanks for mentioning the your posts popkin! I'll go read them now...
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 15, 2004 10:00 pm (#393 of 2956)
Snape says something to the effect -of mundane minds not being good at occlumency- when he begins lessons with Harry. Wouldn't there be a 'natural talent' element in addition to working hard and good tutoring to occlumency?
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 3:13 am (#394 of 2956)
when you think of it, it seems indeed that you need some "natural talent" to be good at occlumency, but I would say talent like will, very strong will. Snape said that qualities required for occlumency and for repelling the impero curse are similar (I don't have my book so I don't have the exact quote), and undoubtlessly you need a very strong will to repell an impero curse. Harry showed such a will when he resisted to LV in the graveyard, wand versus wand. Would then Snape have such a will ? After all, he's a "superb occlumens" ! What do you think of it ?
Devika - Jan 16, 2004 4:55 am (#395 of 2956)
Well... Harry's mind is not mundane, whatever Snape might think and it is his strong will power and control that helps him to develop such abilities. As for Snape, I have no doubt that he is not only a very powerful wizard but also someone with a very strong ability to control his own emotions. He has usually come across as the most stoic of the teachers and none of his emotions except hate, seem to have affected him much, at least externally. He does seem to have a very strong ability to keep his emotions under check at most times. And if we are right in imagining that Snape is spying for DD, then it must be these powers that help him to hoodwink Voldy, who himself is quite a good legimens.
HP Fan - Jan 16, 2004 8:03 am (#396 of 2956)
Perhaps Snape is so good at Occlumens because he can control his emotions to such an extent. As you say the only emotions we really see Snape showing are hatred and anger - yet his anger always seems to me to be suppressed - like he's not giving into it. I got that impression where he catches Harry in the Pensive - he could have done Harry some serious damage there - it's the only time we've really seen him lose it and even then it seems controlled aiming at getting Harry out of the room as fast as he can so he doesn't hurt him. Just my impression. But if that is case it shows how much self-control he has, and we've had it right from his mouth that people who "wear their hearts on their sleeves" and cannot control their emotions are no good at Occulmency not sure what page it is my books not with me at the moment and I can't remember the whole quote.
Gina R Snape - Jan 16, 2004 8:47 am (#397 of 2956)
I agree HP Fan. Something tells me if Snape let loose his anger it would be an awesome, terrifying scene. Maybe the extent of his own anger frightened even him, and lead to his defection from the Death Eaters.
Harry is lucky he is who he is. I'm not so sure Snape would have been so "nice" to another student. JKR said DD keeps him in Potions to keep him in check. My mind fills with all kinds of possibilities if he were truly let loose to teach DADA.
Only JKR knows for sure what Snape is capable of. But I'd say we've got a good idea.
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 12:28 pm (#398 of 2956)
to control one's emotions as Snape does is a sign of a strong will in my opinion. The difference with Harry is that Snape uses his will to control his emotions and not Harry
Gina R Snape - Jan 16, 2004 12:37 pm (#399 of 2956)
Do you think Harry tries to control other people? And Snape only tries to control himself? Or do mean just in the context of the pensieve scene? Because I think Snape tries to control his students all the time in the classroom. He owns the classroom and merlin help the one who disrupts that!
Come to think of it, I thought he used remarkable self-control in CoS when Harry set off the fireworks and Hermione stole the boomslang skin for the polyjuice potion.
septentrion - Jan 16, 2004 1:00 pm (#400 of 2956)
Gina, I don't think that Harry tries to control other people but he uses his will to face danger, to face people, foes... Snape uses his will to control his own emotions and has some success in it all the time or nearly, that's why he's so good at occlumency. And yes, he tries to control his students, I didn't think of it in that way. I was just trying to think of how powerful a will he may have and to express myself clearly ;-)
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septentrion - Jan 18, 2004 7:09 am (#401 of 2956)
I was checking my books before to post on the wands thread when my eyes were attracted by some sentences which rang a bell about a recurrent debate on this thread : is Snape the loyal servant of LV, or the coward, or the one who left LV ? I haven't definitively settled myself about the coward and the one who left theories (yet I'm inclined to favor the coward theory), but he isn't definitely the faithful servant. In Gof, Crouch Jr tells (ch. veritaserum) that LV told him "he needed to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts [...]who would guide HP through the Triwizard Tournament", and LV tells in the graveyard (ch. the Deatheaters) about his faithful servant : " he is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his eforts that our young friend arrived here tonight". It definitively states for me that Snape IS NOT the one referred as LV's faithful servant because LV had to place such a servant to achieve his plans. If he had thought of Snape as a loyal servant, he would have used him.
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 18, 2004 12:50 pm (#402 of 2956)
Ooooh, good catch septentrion.
Madame Librarian - Jan 18, 2004 12:52 pm (#403 of 2956)
septentrion, I agree with you. The other night I read that same section you refer to and I felt that LV meant Crouch, Jr. during the graveyard scene. I never thought it was Snape at all. Given the effort, not to mention risks, that Crouch-as-Moody had to make at Hogwarts in order to assure that Harry got to that graveyard, I'm pretty sure he meant Crouch, Jr.
But, here I go trying to over-analyse. Maybe that's just exactly what JKR wants us to assume so she can give us a real shocker later on. Or, maybe she'd double back again, figuring that we'd figure her out so she'd not go that route. Am I making sense? Don't think so (had a huge brunch celebration today, and all the blood normally helping by brain to function is busy helping my tummy digest a week's worth of rich food). Oh, rats, I'm not a gambling person, but I'll stick with my original reaction: faithful servant at Hogwarts=Crouch, Jr.
Whew.
Ciao. Barb
septentrion - Jan 18, 2004 1:33 pm (#404 of 2956)
Barb, I had the temptation to overanalyse too but I told to myself : stay stick to canon ! Things are not always so complicated !
Madame Librarian - Jan 18, 2004 4:23 pm (#405 of 2956)
Yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Ciao. Barb
popkin - Jan 18, 2004 8:57 pm (#406 of 2956)
And sometimes it's a submarine. I can't help but overanalyse the graveyard scene.
septentrion - Jan 20, 2004 11:56 am (#407 of 2956)
Two days without a post on the Snape thread
By the way, I wanted to ask you Barb : do I miss a well-known joke about the cigar ? or about the submarine (Popkin's post) ?
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 12:32 pm (#408 of 2956)
Ok, fidelio and I have been debating this, perhaps I'll just bring some of it to the board...
Snape was friends with Bellatrix LeStrange and Avery. Did they have him around just to use him for his talents and abilities? Or did they all enjoy each other's company? Snape seems like a loner in canon, yet Sirius says he ran around with his gang. We both tend to agree that he enjoyed hanging with a girl as cool and pretty and downright mean as Bellatrix, (indulging his own mean streak upon others to be sure), but chances are she was no nicer to him than to anyone else when it suited her. Are the nature of Slytherin friendships any different than those in other houses? Are trust and comraderie viewed and felt and prioritised (sp?) differently?
Also, does Snape enjoy Lucius' company? Why haven't we seen them interact in canon--ever? We know they talk.
Did he leave the DEs solely for moral reasons? Was he tired being used by the likes of Bella and Lucius? Did they make as much fun of him behind his back as the Marauders? Was Snape jealous of the Marauders' friendship? Snape seemed much much crueler to Sirius (and vice versa) than he ever was to Lupin. Why was that?
Ok, those are some open questions to get discussion going. I do find it a most unsettling feeling when the Snape thread isn't in the top 2 of this folder!
Little Ginny - Jan 20, 2004 12:36 pm (#409 of 2956)
Well, I agree: Snape can't be the faithful Death Eater. Not only that it would destroy all my hopes that Snape is going to improve in the next books, I agree with all those who put forth evidence that the faithful one is Barty Crouch. Yes, it is quite obvious, but some things have to be obvious, like, Harry is the good one, or, Dumbledore is one of the good ones, too. (And possibly one of the Squids as well).
If we all agree that Snape was one of the three Death Eaters mentioned, then he can either be the coward, or the one who has left Voldemort forever.
And you may say a lot about Snape, but you can't really call him a coward.
septentrion - Jan 20, 2004 1:16 pm (#410 of 2956)
Gina : "Snape seems like a loner in canon, yet Sirius says he ran around with his gang."
well, well, well...in fact, there's no real proof, even in canon, that Snape was a loner. There's just a scene during occlumency lessons where Harry sees Snape alone in a room, but it may have been an isolated memory. We know nearly nothing about his social life. He never eats at 12GP but does it mean that he always eats alone or that he doesn't have friends or relations ? After all, we know as little about Snape's social life than about McGonagall's social life !
Are the nature of Slytherin friendships any different than those in other houses?
In fact, we don't really have examples of Slytherin friendships under our eyes (I don't call Malfoy's relationship with Crabbe and Goyle friendship). Yet we have heard of some : Salazar Slytherin and Godric Griffyndor, the gang to which belonged Snape, and the end wasn't very glorious. Is it enough to take it as the norm ? In other words, can Slytherins have other relations than useful ones ? It seems not, but I have hope that the potions master is an exception
And you may say a lot about Snape, but you can't really call him a coward.
I agree with you, Little Giny, but I really swing between Snape is the coward and Snape is the one who left LV. When I wrote my post, I was on the coward theory, but today, I don't know.
Madame Librarian - Jan 20, 2004 2:42 pm (#411 of 2956)
A l-o-o-n-g way back on the Snape #1 thread, I theorized that Snape was just as much of an outcast or object of scorn with the DEs as he was at school (though now I realize that septentrion has a good point about Snape having a "gang," and there is no absolute canon reference to him being a loner while in school). And I will re-state that with this slight change to accomodate septention's comment--
Snape was scorned and sneered at (and worse) by the Marauders, and possibly he gave back in kind to them. We've only had one "memory" and some reminiscences by Sirius and Lupin. Nonetheless, the Marauders were the cool kids, the smart ones, the popular ones. Snape's gang might have been a group of oddballs and nerds. So, when he joins up with the DEs, it's possible that he's gotten to the inner circle by toadying and adoration. The inner circle of DEs is a clique comparable to the cool group at school. Snape still doesn't fit in and may be teased and scorned, and worst of all, his talents are overlooked or ignored. This, above all, makes him re-think his allegiance. If they won't recognize him for the brilliant wizard he is, he's outta there.
Ciao. Barb
p.s.--septentrion, I'll explain the "cigar is just a cigar" on the chat thread. See ya, there!
Peregrine - Jan 20, 2004 2:44 pm (#412 of 2956)
A friendship/romance with Bella may explain some of the more hateful feelings that Snape has towards Sirius (as opposed to Lupin). I think it?s safe to say Sirius wasn?t exactly nice to his cousin and vice versa. It could be either Sirius was cruel to Bella and Snape stood up for her or Bella was cruel to Sirius and Snape joined in the fun (or a mixture of both). I don?t know where James would fit into this except he was Sirius? best friend, but it could explain why Lupin wasn?t as much of a target (besides his affable Lupiness).
Weeny Owl - Jan 20, 2004 7:59 pm (#413 of 2956)
The problem with the professors is that we know very little about them, and that includes Lupin.
We have a few biased comments about Snape from Sirius, and we have the Pensieve scene with Snape and the Marauders, but that doesn't really say much.
We see a little boy crying while adults are arguing, and it could be his parents. One scene doesn't mean he had a bad childhood, though. It could be that the scene stands out in Snape's memories because of something that happened after and not because it was the norm. We see him zapping flies, but we don't know why that particular memory is so important.
Sirius said he hung out with a gang of Slytherins who nearly all became Death Eaters. Sirius never said if he hung out with them the way Pettigrew hung out with the Marauders or if Snape was actually part of the gang. He also didn't say if the members of the gang were all the same age.
We have no idea if Snape's parents are still alive - one or both - or if he has any siblings, grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, etc. who are still alive. We also don't know for a fact that he's a pureblood, although with him calling Lily a Mudblood, chances are he is. If he is a pureblood, he probably has tons of relatives, however distantly related they might be. He could be related to Draco, Ron, Harry, Neville, or to any other student who has at least one pureblood parent. Sirius and Snape might be related which could be even more of why they detested each other.
I've been reading GoF, and while we know Viktor Krum's parents were with him at the end of the Tri-Wizard Tournament, I was intrigued by how much his description resembles Snape's. Dark hair, hooked nose, sallow skin, rounded shoulders... maybe they're distant cousins.
As for Snape's relationship with Bella, it could be that there was something between them, but if they were related, maybe not.
There's just too much JKR hasn't explained, and while much can be read into what she's told us so far, there can be so many possible explanations that I think I need to ask our Potions Master for a headache potion.
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 8:11 pm (#414 of 2956)
OMG, Weeny. That is the BEST smiley!!!!!!
I think the scene of Snape zapping flies was made to show us a sense of isolation, loneliness and depression. It's a very sad image. Combine that with Sirius' description of Snape being an oddball, and I doubt his childhood was filled with ribald tales of camraderie like the Marauders had. I think JKR gives us just enough to give us an overall picture, without provide the full details.
Still. I want the full details!!!!!!
Weeny Owl - Jan 20, 2004 8:23 pm (#415 of 2956)
I agree with you, Gina, but JKR doesn't actually spell it out, and I want the full details myself!
I think it does show the sense of isolation, and maybe it shows even more how much isolation he'll experience later in his role as a spy.
I would like to know why those particular memories came out during the Occlumency lessons, though... what happened before we see the couple arguing and the child crying? What happened before we see the lone teen zapping flies? Why were those memories the ones Harry could bring out and not something else?
Glad you liked the smiley... have a potion on Severus.
Julia. - Jan 20, 2004 8:32 pm (#416 of 2956)
If you want full details Gina, why don't you just ask him before bed or something? Actually, I think that would make excellent dinner conversation, myself.
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 8:40 pm (#417 of 2956)
Ah, yes, Julia. I would, but then I could only broadcast the conversation on the fanfiction side...
Anyway, I want to hear JKR's version of events. Snape's untold childhood will otherwise be penned by me at some point.
Julia. - Jan 20, 2004 8:41 pm (#418 of 2956)
I can't wait for either one!
septentrion - Jan 21, 2004 12:19 am (#419 of 2956)
Sirius never said if he hung out with them the way Pettigrew hung out with the Marauders or if Snape was actually part of the gang
Weeny Owl, your question makes me think of this : what if JKR did a parallel between Pettigrew and Snape ? Each of them can be considered as a sneak to his own camp, and are maybe destined to be redeemed. The difference is that Snape seems to be already redeemed, and Pettigrew not yet.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 6:38 am (#420 of 2956)
That's an interesting idea. Except that Pettigrew lacks a backbone and has no intelligence. Snape, on the other hand, has a brilliant mind, multiple talents and skills, and has enough backbone (or perhaps exoskeleton?) for two.
septentrion - Jan 21, 2004 7:34 am (#421 of 2956)
that's why he gained his redemption first...
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2004 9:43 am (#422 of 2956)
Perhaps the main difference is that Pettigrew redeemed himself for Voldie and the bad guys while Snape redeemed himself for the Order and the good guys.
If both Pettigrew and Snape were on the fringes of their groups instead of integral parts, it could show strength of character for Snape while Pettigrew is just a nasty betraying rat.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 9:50 am (#423 of 2956)
But while Dumbledore seems to trust Snape implicitly and explicitly, Voldemort repeatedly reminds Pettigrew that he is neither trusted nor particularly valued. Pettigrew and Snape are both in some ways being used. It's more like they are mirror images of one another.
Not to mention that Pettigrew is balding and unattractive, ill-dressed and out of shape, whereas Snape is the opposite.
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2004 10:11 am (#424 of 2956)
Mirror images? I would agree with that, Gina. Opposites? Most definitely, and part of that would include Voldie not trusting Pettigrew while Dumbledore does trust Snape.
I Am Used Vlad - Jan 21, 2004 6:49 pm (#425 of 2956)
Gina, everyone is attractive when compared to a rat.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 8:36 pm (#426 of 2956)
True, true nimrod.
Hey, I thought of something else. Snape and Pettigrew will have both had life debts to repay to him (I don't know if Snape's life debt is considered repaid or not).
Gina R Snape - Jan 22, 2004 9:48 am (#427 of 2956)
Hey, I just thought of something else today.
Dumbledore always says he trusts Snape. But one thing I realised today that makes Snape trustworthy, is that he is not a "yes man." Voldemort requires allegiance, and looks into people to see if they are lying because he cannot trust they will tell the truth. Plus he's a mean psychopath, but I digress...
Snape, in his interactions with Dumbledore, will let him know when he disagrees with something. There is a real relationship, genuine interaction there. He argued against Lupin's appointment and gave rational reasons beyond his dislike for the man. He has argued with Dumbledore over the intentions and history of Sirius Black. He's argued about the treatment of Harry Potter. He's made himself unpopular to the staff by volunteering to referree the quidditch match in PS/SS. He stands up and opens his mouth. Yet it is not insubordination. When DD gives a final answer or a directive, Snape follows through--begrudgingly if he disagrees--but does nonetheles.
If Snape did not do those things, I and probably Dumbledore would have a case to suspect him of not being trustworthy.
septentrion - Jan 22, 2004 10:52 am (#428 of 2956)
Snape and Pettigrew will have both had life debts to repay to him
to him = Harry ?
Gina R Snape - Jan 24, 2004 7:46 pm (#429 of 2956)
Yes, septentrion. That's what I meant.
So, who here thinks Snape's relationship to Harry and Lupin will change now that Sirius is dead? I wonder if Sirius played a big role in keeping the animosity fires stoked.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 24, 2004 8:15 pm (#430 of 2956)
Oh Gina!!!
Did you do that? I'm soo envious. I haven't had the freedom paint in the past two years (I'm a mommy). Pastels? Oh how my fingers ache to touch a canvas. Big sighes.
Its beautiful, and so is your husband.
Weeny Owl - Jan 24, 2004 8:17 pm (#431 of 2956)
Gina:
I think the relationship between Snape and Lupin might calm down considerably. I'm not sure Snape ever really hated Lupin since he was as much a victim as Snape himself was.
As for Harry, I think a lot will depend on what happens to him over the summer and what happens when they meet again. If Dumbledore teaches Harry Occlumency, I think he might also throw in some subtle psychological counseling while he's at it. If that happens, and if Harry can control his anger around Snape, then Snape may do the same.
I'm not saying they'll be best friends but that they might be able to tolerate each other for brief periods of time.
Gina R Snape - Jan 24, 2004 8:27 pm (#432 of 2956)
Thank you, Mim, but I cannot take credit for the artwork.
I'd like to see Snape and Lupin become friends, or at least have some kind of amicable relationship with one another. Lupin seems to have a lot of respect for Snape. He could maybe calm some of Snape's anger and give him recognition. Plus, I think Snape needs a friend in the Order or he'll start to resent his role of spying for people. I hope Dumbledore shows his appreciation for Snape's efforts in some way.
septentrion - Jan 25, 2004 12:34 pm (#433 of 2956)
Things may change between Lupin and snape, but I have no certainty about this. Snape showed himself very mean towards Lupin in PoA. He produced rational arguments against Lupin yet his behaviour was everything but rational when it came to Lupin. So, if Snape's attitude towards Lupin was deep in Snape's mind, I'm not sure their relation will calm down. At least they should ignore each other and just have a "professional" relationship.
Snape doesn't have the same kind of background in his relationship with Harry, and he now knows how Harry's life was not that easy. Here I think the problem would come from Harry : we saw his surge of hatred towards Snape at the end of OoTP with no reason. Snape and Harry's relationhip will depend in my mind on how Harry will be able to overcome his feelings.
popkin - Jan 26, 2004 3:28 am (#434 of 2956)
Harry hasn't been the most respectful student of Snape's, but I think he was open minded up until the end of OotP when he decided to lay all the blame for Sirius death upon Snape. At that point, reconciliation became a much more difficult task. I can see Snape ruminating over the summer about the stuff he saw in Harry's brain, and concluding that he hasn't been supportive enough of the boy. If Snape returns to Hogwarts with a subtly more understanding attitude toward Harry, it's not likely to change their relationship, however, if he could bring himself to uttering a heartfelt apology they might be able to come to some kind of a working arrangement.
At any rate, I think the first move toward reconciliation is resting on Snape.
Gina R Snape - Jan 26, 2004 7:20 am (#435 of 2956)
popkin, I don't think we'll ever see an apology from Snape unless DD steps in and makes him do it.
My hope is that Harry realises that Snape is a scapegoat for him; but they may yet have a head-to-head at some crucial moment where house points and detentions are not an issue. Maybe at an Order meeting or in some other context created by Dumbledore.
I think if they can hash it out in some way, they may come to an understanding of one another. But they are so alike in some ways, that I don't see either one coming forward to freely offer an apology. Also, despite Snape's nasty attitude towards Harry, Harry owes Snape a thank you for all that he's done. I don't see that coming either, sadly.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 26, 2004 11:31 pm (#436 of 2956)
Gina, I agree with you. They are so very much alike and that's what will keep them apart. Both are too proud to say 'sorry'.
When I read Snape, I see his relationship with Harry as a mix of hate and jealousy with a little envy. When Snape sees Harry, he sees James first, but then sees himself. Think of the waves of rage that overcome him every time he sees Harry; of being reminded daily of all the things you would love to rid your memory. He sees himself in Harry's pain of being alone.
Harry has a gang of friends that are somewhat cool. When you are on the outside looking in, you always want to be accepted. Even if canon tells us that Snape had a gang he ran with in school, it doesn't tell us how he fit in it. I see syltherin friendships not being that of bonds of trust and acceptance, but being tools for the ambitious.
Snape's worst memory wasn't just to show why he is so mean to Harry, but (what I think is more important) that people aren't always what they seem. Harry's dad wasn't the hero Harry thought him to be. Maybe Snape isn't the bully Harry thinks.
I think there will be more roach hurling. Amongst the shards of glass, words will be said, maybe Snape will call Harry 'James' ,and in a rush of words, say everything that James ever did to him. Harry will lash back that he is not his father. And maybe in the awake ward silence that follows there will be an understanding, and will see each other for the men they could be.
Okie dokie, no more wine for me!
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 6:52 am (#437 of 2956)
Heee. That would be some scene! I don't think JKR would do it, but you could jot something down on the fanfiction side!
I rather suspect Snape will be forced to follow Harry into battle somehow. He'll resent it, but he'll go. And in this context the two will garner a grudging respect for one another.
Weeny Owl - Jan 27, 2004 9:10 am (#438 of 2956)
Gina:
When you say you thing Snape will be forced to follow Harry into battle, do you mean the final battle or do you think something significant might happen before then?
If haven't quite decided what I think JKR will do with Snape's spying activities. She could have him work behind the scenes until the end or she could have him in a situation where he has to choose between saving someone or revealing himself as a spy. I could see either scenario working.
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 10:05 am (#439 of 2956)
I think it will be a major and significant battle, but I don't know if it'll be the final one. It depends on what JKR has planned in terms of confrontations. If she keeps up the final battle scene at end of book motif, then yes the final battle. But if books 6 and 7 are littered with violence, then I'm not so sure.
I agree that Snape's activities will somehow be unveiled to us. There's no way she can build up soooo much curiosity about the man and his activities, and not clue us in at some point. It would be unfair to the readers in my opinion. Really unfair. But I wonder if it will be Snape forced to show his hand or if it'll be us just being clued in because Harry is told or something.
I do think, because JKR said to 'keep an eye on 'ol Severus' at Albert Hall, that we are in store for some spectacular move on his part. But again, I don't know if it will be more of the same read-between-the-lines stuff like we got in OoP or something else entirely.
I hope he doesn't get himself killed, though. I couldn't bear the thought!
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 27, 2004 7:27 pm (#440 of 2956)
I too see Harry and Snape following one another into battle. It goes something like this:
Harry overhears part of a conversation that Snape is having with a DE, Malfoy maybe. OR even another dream sequence where Voldemort is talking with Snape. Harry thinks Snape betrayed the Order or even Dumbledore himself. There is another battle with Death Eaters, this time Snape is there and Harry goes for him. Wands at each others throats, Snape has to blow his cover to save Harry and himself from Harry. Voldemort sees this and....
Oops! fan fiction!
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 7:38 pm (#441 of 2956)
Compelling idea, Min. It makes sense.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 27, 2004 8:22 pm (#442 of 2956)
Maybe this is more for the Harry thread, but I want to mention it here first.
At the end of OoP, when Draco adn Harry are about to have sparks fly, Snape comes in and ask Harry what he is doing.
Harry response is that he is trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy. In a seemingly matter of fact way. (I don't have my books with me.)
This seemed to mark a turning point in Snape's and Harry relationship. Harry didn't seem to be afarid of Snape. Before, anytime Snape caught Harry in something, Harry would back down and give Snape the upper hand. This didn't happen. It suggests that Harry almost dared Snape to do something.
Was it hate inspired or some other change in Harry's veiws of Snape?
I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Gina.
Julia. - Jan 27, 2004 8:23 pm (#443 of 2956)
Not a bad idea Min, but even though Harry is known to be rash and act with out thinking, I do think he'd have the good sence to tell Ron and Hermione, who would insist that he tell Dumbledore what he saw, or she (Hermione, that is), would go to Dumbledore herself, so I don't see that happening.
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 8:39 pm (#444 of 2956)
btw, welcome to the Lex, Min.
I think Harry's entire world view has changed. I worry it may go to his head in book 6 and he'll be uncontrollable.
I think Harry's interactions with Snape will be very dangerous and disconcertingly lacking in trepidation. He might feel invincible knowing his purpose in life is to reckon with Voldemort. And since he's gone to battle now several times, that's bound to inflate his ego a bit. Plus, his anger towards Snape is so white-hot that it might blind him to the fact that Snape is an authority figure.
It was pretty plain that the loss of points meant nothing to Harry. But Snape hasn't caught up to that yet. Harry will be playing by a new set of rules and I think Snape's treatment of Harry has been with kid gloves. I'm sure Snape is capable of far worse and we may see it yet of Harry pushes too far.
Rich - Jan 27, 2004 9:53 pm (#445 of 2956)
It kind of revolves around the way that HRH and everyone else in that year is starting to grow up, not only will they start to treat and react to teachers differently (Harry's change will be intriguing) but the teachers will have to start treating them a little differently. It will be interesting to see how Snape will change in his attitude towards them (if at all). Also, HRH and Snape are starting to develop a relationship that is not only teacher/student but "comrades" in the Order. Will this affect the way that they interact?
popkin - Jan 28, 2004 8:07 am (#446 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 28, 2004 8:09 am
About Harry saying to Snape that he's trying to decide which curse to use on Draco: I think Harry is just acting out his anger over Sirius' death. I don't think it so much signals a change in Harry's attitude toward Snape, but indicates how out of whack Harry's emotional state is in general.
Harry's got a summer to get his emotions under control (it would take longer in the real world, but I think we'll see a relatively stable Harry at the beginning of book 6). When Harry gets back to Hogwarts, if he is still holding Snape responsible for Sirius' death, there is likely to be a true confrontation between them. However, before everything comes to a head, Harry may face the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bellatrix, Lucius and LV are responsible for Sirius' death, since she killed him under Lucius' and Voldemort's orders.
Snape has said all along that Harry's father was an arrogant rule breaker, and Harry was not able to believe it until, following in his father's footsteps, Harry intrudes on Snape's private thoughts and sees the truth. Maybe Snape will be able to show Harry some other unpleasant truths in sixth year.
Devika - Jan 28, 2004 8:30 am (#447 of 2956)
I agree Popkin. Harry wasn't in the best state of mind when he said that. It was almost as if he didn't care what would happen if Snape did get really angry at him. He seemed to be in a frame of mind in which everything seems unimportant except venting out your anger... a subtle version of his behaviour in DD's office. But at the same time, there is a definite possibility that this could signal a change in his overall attitude maybe not just towards Snape. With Snape, I'm not sure if he entirely meant it when he accused him in DD's office. Agreed he hates Snape, but I'm sure Harry has a better judgement and upon further reflection will not feel so badly about Snape. I'm not saying that this will mean that they'll suddenly start getting along, but it might just be the beginning of a thaw in their relationship. Let's see.... I'm not sure about all this myself... it's pure speculation, but it could be quite ironical that Sirius' death helps Snape and Harry to overcome their feelings for each other... okay.... now I'm rambling.... I think I'm getting sleepy!
Peregrine - Jan 28, 2004 8:33 am (#448 of 2956)
Argh, I hate not having my books with me, so correct me if I?m wrong?. After Sirius died and Harry was venting at Dumbledore, isn?t there one little sentence tucked away in the chapter where Harry admits internally that it was his own fault but vocally he blames everyone else? Or am I completely making things up? I?ve always been under the impression that Harry was using Snape as a scapegoat because he couldn?t face the fact that it was his own forgetfulness and haste that caused Sirius? death?but deep down he knew Snape tried to help. And therefore Harry wouldn?t have to spend the summer getting over his anger towards Snape, but accepting his own fault instead.
In other words, I?ve never thought Harry truly hated Snape anymore than he ever did. The trying-to-decide-what-curse outburst reminded me more of Harry mouthing off to Umbridge in frustration. Like popkin said, it's more like his emotions are "out of whack" than an elevated hatred towards Snape.
Weeny Owl - Jan 28, 2004 9:29 am (#449 of 2956)
Harry and Snape's future relationship has so many variables that I can see JKR going a number of ways with it.
A lot will depend on outside factors over the summer... Occlumency with Dumbledore, what happens with the Dursleys, the return to 12 Grimmauld Place, whether or not Lupin, Ron, Hermione, Tonks, Luna, or even another character can get Harry to discuss Sirius's death, any attacks by Death Eaters, or even something else such as a new character being introduced who knew Sirius and Harry's parents.
Then, there's Harry's O.W.L. results and whether or not he's going to be taking Potions in his sixth year. JKR could go a number of ways with that as well.
I can see Harry and Snape's relationship calming down somewhat if they have a confrontation, and if someone else were involved such as Dumbledore who could make both of them see the situation from a different perspective. Maybe Harry finding out why Dumbledore trusts Snape or Snape seeing Harry as his own person and not a carbon copy of James might help both of them stop being so hard-headed.
I can also see things only getting worse between them until something happens that will knock them for a loop.
Whether their relationship improves or gets worse, I doubt if it will continue as it has.
Gina R Snape - Jan 28, 2004 9:29 am (#450 of 2956)
Yes, Peregrine, he does have a moment where he blames himself. But then there is a line where he says he'll 'never forgive Snape' (paraphrasing), which clearly leads to speculation about whether he will in some way always continue to blame Snape.
I really hope this kid gets some mental health counseling. Unfortunately, I doubt it wil happen, and wonder if it's even available in the wizarding world.
Where are the school social workers?! And how come Snape was never referred to one?
Edit: I see Weeny responded. I just wanted to add that I suspect Harry will not have gotten a perfect Potions grade. But I foresee Dumbledore forcing Snape to accept Harry in his Potions class anyway, which will lead to even more tension. Snape will be even more justified in his anger that Harry gets to disregard the rules because he's Harry Potter. And Snape will of course find new and fresh ways to take it out on Harry. I can't wait!
I was checking my books before to post on the wands thread when my eyes were attracted by some sentences which rang a bell about a recurrent debate on this thread : is Snape the loyal servant of LV, or the coward, or the one who left LV ? I haven't definitively settled myself about the coward and the one who left theories (yet I'm inclined to favor the coward theory), but he isn't definitely the faithful servant. In Gof, Crouch Jr tells (ch. veritaserum) that LV told him "he needed to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts [...]who would guide HP through the Triwizard Tournament", and LV tells in the graveyard (ch. the Deatheaters) about his faithful servant : " he is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his eforts that our young friend arrived here tonight". It definitively states for me that Snape IS NOT the one referred as LV's faithful servant because LV had to place such a servant to achieve his plans. If he had thought of Snape as a loyal servant, he would have used him.
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 18, 2004 12:50 pm (#402 of 2956)
Ooooh, good catch septentrion.
Madame Librarian - Jan 18, 2004 12:52 pm (#403 of 2956)
septentrion, I agree with you. The other night I read that same section you refer to and I felt that LV meant Crouch, Jr. during the graveyard scene. I never thought it was Snape at all. Given the effort, not to mention risks, that Crouch-as-Moody had to make at Hogwarts in order to assure that Harry got to that graveyard, I'm pretty sure he meant Crouch, Jr.
But, here I go trying to over-analyse. Maybe that's just exactly what JKR wants us to assume so she can give us a real shocker later on. Or, maybe she'd double back again, figuring that we'd figure her out so she'd not go that route. Am I making sense? Don't think so (had a huge brunch celebration today, and all the blood normally helping by brain to function is busy helping my tummy digest a week's worth of rich food). Oh, rats, I'm not a gambling person, but I'll stick with my original reaction: faithful servant at Hogwarts=Crouch, Jr.
Whew.
Ciao. Barb
septentrion - Jan 18, 2004 1:33 pm (#404 of 2956)
Barb, I had the temptation to overanalyse too but I told to myself : stay stick to canon ! Things are not always so complicated !
Madame Librarian - Jan 18, 2004 4:23 pm (#405 of 2956)
Yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Ciao. Barb
popkin - Jan 18, 2004 8:57 pm (#406 of 2956)
And sometimes it's a submarine. I can't help but overanalyse the graveyard scene.
septentrion - Jan 20, 2004 11:56 am (#407 of 2956)
Two days without a post on the Snape thread
By the way, I wanted to ask you Barb : do I miss a well-known joke about the cigar ? or about the submarine (Popkin's post) ?
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 12:32 pm (#408 of 2956)
Ok, fidelio and I have been debating this, perhaps I'll just bring some of it to the board...
Snape was friends with Bellatrix LeStrange and Avery. Did they have him around just to use him for his talents and abilities? Or did they all enjoy each other's company? Snape seems like a loner in canon, yet Sirius says he ran around with his gang. We both tend to agree that he enjoyed hanging with a girl as cool and pretty and downright mean as Bellatrix, (indulging his own mean streak upon others to be sure), but chances are she was no nicer to him than to anyone else when it suited her. Are the nature of Slytherin friendships any different than those in other houses? Are trust and comraderie viewed and felt and prioritised (sp?) differently?
Also, does Snape enjoy Lucius' company? Why haven't we seen them interact in canon--ever? We know they talk.
Did he leave the DEs solely for moral reasons? Was he tired being used by the likes of Bella and Lucius? Did they make as much fun of him behind his back as the Marauders? Was Snape jealous of the Marauders' friendship? Snape seemed much much crueler to Sirius (and vice versa) than he ever was to Lupin. Why was that?
Ok, those are some open questions to get discussion going. I do find it a most unsettling feeling when the Snape thread isn't in the top 2 of this folder!
Little Ginny - Jan 20, 2004 12:36 pm (#409 of 2956)
Well, I agree: Snape can't be the faithful Death Eater. Not only that it would destroy all my hopes that Snape is going to improve in the next books, I agree with all those who put forth evidence that the faithful one is Barty Crouch. Yes, it is quite obvious, but some things have to be obvious, like, Harry is the good one, or, Dumbledore is one of the good ones, too. (And possibly one of the Squids as well).
If we all agree that Snape was one of the three Death Eaters mentioned, then he can either be the coward, or the one who has left Voldemort forever.
And you may say a lot about Snape, but you can't really call him a coward.
septentrion - Jan 20, 2004 1:16 pm (#410 of 2956)
Gina : "Snape seems like a loner in canon, yet Sirius says he ran around with his gang."
well, well, well...in fact, there's no real proof, even in canon, that Snape was a loner. There's just a scene during occlumency lessons where Harry sees Snape alone in a room, but it may have been an isolated memory. We know nearly nothing about his social life. He never eats at 12GP but does it mean that he always eats alone or that he doesn't have friends or relations ? After all, we know as little about Snape's social life than about McGonagall's social life !
Are the nature of Slytherin friendships any different than those in other houses?
In fact, we don't really have examples of Slytherin friendships under our eyes (I don't call Malfoy's relationship with Crabbe and Goyle friendship). Yet we have heard of some : Salazar Slytherin and Godric Griffyndor, the gang to which belonged Snape, and the end wasn't very glorious. Is it enough to take it as the norm ? In other words, can Slytherins have other relations than useful ones ? It seems not, but I have hope that the potions master is an exception
And you may say a lot about Snape, but you can't really call him a coward.
I agree with you, Little Giny, but I really swing between Snape is the coward and Snape is the one who left LV. When I wrote my post, I was on the coward theory, but today, I don't know.
Madame Librarian - Jan 20, 2004 2:42 pm (#411 of 2956)
A l-o-o-n-g way back on the Snape #1 thread, I theorized that Snape was just as much of an outcast or object of scorn with the DEs as he was at school (though now I realize that septentrion has a good point about Snape having a "gang," and there is no absolute canon reference to him being a loner while in school). And I will re-state that with this slight change to accomodate septention's comment--
Snape was scorned and sneered at (and worse) by the Marauders, and possibly he gave back in kind to them. We've only had one "memory" and some reminiscences by Sirius and Lupin. Nonetheless, the Marauders were the cool kids, the smart ones, the popular ones. Snape's gang might have been a group of oddballs and nerds. So, when he joins up with the DEs, it's possible that he's gotten to the inner circle by toadying and adoration. The inner circle of DEs is a clique comparable to the cool group at school. Snape still doesn't fit in and may be teased and scorned, and worst of all, his talents are overlooked or ignored. This, above all, makes him re-think his allegiance. If they won't recognize him for the brilliant wizard he is, he's outta there.
Ciao. Barb
p.s.--septentrion, I'll explain the "cigar is just a cigar" on the chat thread. See ya, there!
Peregrine - Jan 20, 2004 2:44 pm (#412 of 2956)
A friendship/romance with Bella may explain some of the more hateful feelings that Snape has towards Sirius (as opposed to Lupin). I think it?s safe to say Sirius wasn?t exactly nice to his cousin and vice versa. It could be either Sirius was cruel to Bella and Snape stood up for her or Bella was cruel to Sirius and Snape joined in the fun (or a mixture of both). I don?t know where James would fit into this except he was Sirius? best friend, but it could explain why Lupin wasn?t as much of a target (besides his affable Lupiness).
Weeny Owl - Jan 20, 2004 7:59 pm (#413 of 2956)
The problem with the professors is that we know very little about them, and that includes Lupin.
We have a few biased comments about Snape from Sirius, and we have the Pensieve scene with Snape and the Marauders, but that doesn't really say much.
We see a little boy crying while adults are arguing, and it could be his parents. One scene doesn't mean he had a bad childhood, though. It could be that the scene stands out in Snape's memories because of something that happened after and not because it was the norm. We see him zapping flies, but we don't know why that particular memory is so important.
Sirius said he hung out with a gang of Slytherins who nearly all became Death Eaters. Sirius never said if he hung out with them the way Pettigrew hung out with the Marauders or if Snape was actually part of the gang. He also didn't say if the members of the gang were all the same age.
We have no idea if Snape's parents are still alive - one or both - or if he has any siblings, grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, etc. who are still alive. We also don't know for a fact that he's a pureblood, although with him calling Lily a Mudblood, chances are he is. If he is a pureblood, he probably has tons of relatives, however distantly related they might be. He could be related to Draco, Ron, Harry, Neville, or to any other student who has at least one pureblood parent. Sirius and Snape might be related which could be even more of why they detested each other.
I've been reading GoF, and while we know Viktor Krum's parents were with him at the end of the Tri-Wizard Tournament, I was intrigued by how much his description resembles Snape's. Dark hair, hooked nose, sallow skin, rounded shoulders... maybe they're distant cousins.
As for Snape's relationship with Bella, it could be that there was something between them, but if they were related, maybe not.
There's just too much JKR hasn't explained, and while much can be read into what she's told us so far, there can be so many possible explanations that I think I need to ask our Potions Master for a headache potion.
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 8:11 pm (#414 of 2956)
OMG, Weeny. That is the BEST smiley!!!!!!
I think the scene of Snape zapping flies was made to show us a sense of isolation, loneliness and depression. It's a very sad image. Combine that with Sirius' description of Snape being an oddball, and I doubt his childhood was filled with ribald tales of camraderie like the Marauders had. I think JKR gives us just enough to give us an overall picture, without provide the full details.
Still. I want the full details!!!!!!
Weeny Owl - Jan 20, 2004 8:23 pm (#415 of 2956)
I agree with you, Gina, but JKR doesn't actually spell it out, and I want the full details myself!
I think it does show the sense of isolation, and maybe it shows even more how much isolation he'll experience later in his role as a spy.
I would like to know why those particular memories came out during the Occlumency lessons, though... what happened before we see the couple arguing and the child crying? What happened before we see the lone teen zapping flies? Why were those memories the ones Harry could bring out and not something else?
Glad you liked the smiley... have a potion on Severus.
Julia. - Jan 20, 2004 8:32 pm (#416 of 2956)
If you want full details Gina, why don't you just ask him before bed or something? Actually, I think that would make excellent dinner conversation, myself.
Gina R Snape - Jan 20, 2004 8:40 pm (#417 of 2956)
Ah, yes, Julia. I would, but then I could only broadcast the conversation on the fanfiction side...
Anyway, I want to hear JKR's version of events. Snape's untold childhood will otherwise be penned by me at some point.
Julia. - Jan 20, 2004 8:41 pm (#418 of 2956)
I can't wait for either one!
septentrion - Jan 21, 2004 12:19 am (#419 of 2956)
Sirius never said if he hung out with them the way Pettigrew hung out with the Marauders or if Snape was actually part of the gang
Weeny Owl, your question makes me think of this : what if JKR did a parallel between Pettigrew and Snape ? Each of them can be considered as a sneak to his own camp, and are maybe destined to be redeemed. The difference is that Snape seems to be already redeemed, and Pettigrew not yet.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 6:38 am (#420 of 2956)
That's an interesting idea. Except that Pettigrew lacks a backbone and has no intelligence. Snape, on the other hand, has a brilliant mind, multiple talents and skills, and has enough backbone (or perhaps exoskeleton?) for two.
septentrion - Jan 21, 2004 7:34 am (#421 of 2956)
that's why he gained his redemption first...
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2004 9:43 am (#422 of 2956)
Perhaps the main difference is that Pettigrew redeemed himself for Voldie and the bad guys while Snape redeemed himself for the Order and the good guys.
If both Pettigrew and Snape were on the fringes of their groups instead of integral parts, it could show strength of character for Snape while Pettigrew is just a nasty betraying rat.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 9:50 am (#423 of 2956)
But while Dumbledore seems to trust Snape implicitly and explicitly, Voldemort repeatedly reminds Pettigrew that he is neither trusted nor particularly valued. Pettigrew and Snape are both in some ways being used. It's more like they are mirror images of one another.
Not to mention that Pettigrew is balding and unattractive, ill-dressed and out of shape, whereas Snape is the opposite.
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2004 10:11 am (#424 of 2956)
Mirror images? I would agree with that, Gina. Opposites? Most definitely, and part of that would include Voldie not trusting Pettigrew while Dumbledore does trust Snape.
I Am Used Vlad - Jan 21, 2004 6:49 pm (#425 of 2956)
Gina, everyone is attractive when compared to a rat.
Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 8:36 pm (#426 of 2956)
True, true nimrod.
Hey, I thought of something else. Snape and Pettigrew will have both had life debts to repay to him (I don't know if Snape's life debt is considered repaid or not).
Gina R Snape - Jan 22, 2004 9:48 am (#427 of 2956)
Hey, I just thought of something else today.
Dumbledore always says he trusts Snape. But one thing I realised today that makes Snape trustworthy, is that he is not a "yes man." Voldemort requires allegiance, and looks into people to see if they are lying because he cannot trust they will tell the truth. Plus he's a mean psychopath, but I digress...
Snape, in his interactions with Dumbledore, will let him know when he disagrees with something. There is a real relationship, genuine interaction there. He argued against Lupin's appointment and gave rational reasons beyond his dislike for the man. He has argued with Dumbledore over the intentions and history of Sirius Black. He's argued about the treatment of Harry Potter. He's made himself unpopular to the staff by volunteering to referree the quidditch match in PS/SS. He stands up and opens his mouth. Yet it is not insubordination. When DD gives a final answer or a directive, Snape follows through--begrudgingly if he disagrees--but does nonetheles.
If Snape did not do those things, I and probably Dumbledore would have a case to suspect him of not being trustworthy.
septentrion - Jan 22, 2004 10:52 am (#428 of 2956)
Snape and Pettigrew will have both had life debts to repay to him
to him = Harry ?
Gina R Snape - Jan 24, 2004 7:46 pm (#429 of 2956)
Yes, septentrion. That's what I meant.
So, who here thinks Snape's relationship to Harry and Lupin will change now that Sirius is dead? I wonder if Sirius played a big role in keeping the animosity fires stoked.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 24, 2004 8:15 pm (#430 of 2956)
Oh Gina!!!
Did you do that? I'm soo envious. I haven't had the freedom paint in the past two years (I'm a mommy). Pastels? Oh how my fingers ache to touch a canvas. Big sighes.
Its beautiful, and so is your husband.
Weeny Owl - Jan 24, 2004 8:17 pm (#431 of 2956)
Gina:
I think the relationship between Snape and Lupin might calm down considerably. I'm not sure Snape ever really hated Lupin since he was as much a victim as Snape himself was.
As for Harry, I think a lot will depend on what happens to him over the summer and what happens when they meet again. If Dumbledore teaches Harry Occlumency, I think he might also throw in some subtle psychological counseling while he's at it. If that happens, and if Harry can control his anger around Snape, then Snape may do the same.
I'm not saying they'll be best friends but that they might be able to tolerate each other for brief periods of time.
Gina R Snape - Jan 24, 2004 8:27 pm (#432 of 2956)
Thank you, Mim, but I cannot take credit for the artwork.
I'd like to see Snape and Lupin become friends, or at least have some kind of amicable relationship with one another. Lupin seems to have a lot of respect for Snape. He could maybe calm some of Snape's anger and give him recognition. Plus, I think Snape needs a friend in the Order or he'll start to resent his role of spying for people. I hope Dumbledore shows his appreciation for Snape's efforts in some way.
septentrion - Jan 25, 2004 12:34 pm (#433 of 2956)
Things may change between Lupin and snape, but I have no certainty about this. Snape showed himself very mean towards Lupin in PoA. He produced rational arguments against Lupin yet his behaviour was everything but rational when it came to Lupin. So, if Snape's attitude towards Lupin was deep in Snape's mind, I'm not sure their relation will calm down. At least they should ignore each other and just have a "professional" relationship.
Snape doesn't have the same kind of background in his relationship with Harry, and he now knows how Harry's life was not that easy. Here I think the problem would come from Harry : we saw his surge of hatred towards Snape at the end of OoTP with no reason. Snape and Harry's relationhip will depend in my mind on how Harry will be able to overcome his feelings.
popkin - Jan 26, 2004 3:28 am (#434 of 2956)
Harry hasn't been the most respectful student of Snape's, but I think he was open minded up until the end of OotP when he decided to lay all the blame for Sirius death upon Snape. At that point, reconciliation became a much more difficult task. I can see Snape ruminating over the summer about the stuff he saw in Harry's brain, and concluding that he hasn't been supportive enough of the boy. If Snape returns to Hogwarts with a subtly more understanding attitude toward Harry, it's not likely to change their relationship, however, if he could bring himself to uttering a heartfelt apology they might be able to come to some kind of a working arrangement.
At any rate, I think the first move toward reconciliation is resting on Snape.
Gina R Snape - Jan 26, 2004 7:20 am (#435 of 2956)
popkin, I don't think we'll ever see an apology from Snape unless DD steps in and makes him do it.
My hope is that Harry realises that Snape is a scapegoat for him; but they may yet have a head-to-head at some crucial moment where house points and detentions are not an issue. Maybe at an Order meeting or in some other context created by Dumbledore.
I think if they can hash it out in some way, they may come to an understanding of one another. But they are so alike in some ways, that I don't see either one coming forward to freely offer an apology. Also, despite Snape's nasty attitude towards Harry, Harry owes Snape a thank you for all that he's done. I don't see that coming either, sadly.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 26, 2004 11:31 pm (#436 of 2956)
Gina, I agree with you. They are so very much alike and that's what will keep them apart. Both are too proud to say 'sorry'.
When I read Snape, I see his relationship with Harry as a mix of hate and jealousy with a little envy. When Snape sees Harry, he sees James first, but then sees himself. Think of the waves of rage that overcome him every time he sees Harry; of being reminded daily of all the things you would love to rid your memory. He sees himself in Harry's pain of being alone.
Harry has a gang of friends that are somewhat cool. When you are on the outside looking in, you always want to be accepted. Even if canon tells us that Snape had a gang he ran with in school, it doesn't tell us how he fit in it. I see syltherin friendships not being that of bonds of trust and acceptance, but being tools for the ambitious.
Snape's worst memory wasn't just to show why he is so mean to Harry, but (what I think is more important) that people aren't always what they seem. Harry's dad wasn't the hero Harry thought him to be. Maybe Snape isn't the bully Harry thinks.
I think there will be more roach hurling. Amongst the shards of glass, words will be said, maybe Snape will call Harry 'James' ,and in a rush of words, say everything that James ever did to him. Harry will lash back that he is not his father. And maybe in the awake ward silence that follows there will be an understanding, and will see each other for the men they could be.
Okie dokie, no more wine for me!
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 6:52 am (#437 of 2956)
Heee. That would be some scene! I don't think JKR would do it, but you could jot something down on the fanfiction side!
I rather suspect Snape will be forced to follow Harry into battle somehow. He'll resent it, but he'll go. And in this context the two will garner a grudging respect for one another.
Weeny Owl - Jan 27, 2004 9:10 am (#438 of 2956)
Gina:
When you say you thing Snape will be forced to follow Harry into battle, do you mean the final battle or do you think something significant might happen before then?
If haven't quite decided what I think JKR will do with Snape's spying activities. She could have him work behind the scenes until the end or she could have him in a situation where he has to choose between saving someone or revealing himself as a spy. I could see either scenario working.
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 10:05 am (#439 of 2956)
I think it will be a major and significant battle, but I don't know if it'll be the final one. It depends on what JKR has planned in terms of confrontations. If she keeps up the final battle scene at end of book motif, then yes the final battle. But if books 6 and 7 are littered with violence, then I'm not so sure.
I agree that Snape's activities will somehow be unveiled to us. There's no way she can build up soooo much curiosity about the man and his activities, and not clue us in at some point. It would be unfair to the readers in my opinion. Really unfair. But I wonder if it will be Snape forced to show his hand or if it'll be us just being clued in because Harry is told or something.
I do think, because JKR said to 'keep an eye on 'ol Severus' at Albert Hall, that we are in store for some spectacular move on his part. But again, I don't know if it will be more of the same read-between-the-lines stuff like we got in OoP or something else entirely.
I hope he doesn't get himself killed, though. I couldn't bear the thought!
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 27, 2004 7:27 pm (#440 of 2956)
I too see Harry and Snape following one another into battle. It goes something like this:
Harry overhears part of a conversation that Snape is having with a DE, Malfoy maybe. OR even another dream sequence where Voldemort is talking with Snape. Harry thinks Snape betrayed the Order or even Dumbledore himself. There is another battle with Death Eaters, this time Snape is there and Harry goes for him. Wands at each others throats, Snape has to blow his cover to save Harry and himself from Harry. Voldemort sees this and....
Oops! fan fiction!
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 7:38 pm (#441 of 2956)
Compelling idea, Min. It makes sense.
Mad Madame Mim - Jan 27, 2004 8:22 pm (#442 of 2956)
Maybe this is more for the Harry thread, but I want to mention it here first.
At the end of OoP, when Draco adn Harry are about to have sparks fly, Snape comes in and ask Harry what he is doing.
Harry response is that he is trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy. In a seemingly matter of fact way. (I don't have my books with me.)
This seemed to mark a turning point in Snape's and Harry relationship. Harry didn't seem to be afarid of Snape. Before, anytime Snape caught Harry in something, Harry would back down and give Snape the upper hand. This didn't happen. It suggests that Harry almost dared Snape to do something.
Was it hate inspired or some other change in Harry's veiws of Snape?
I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Gina.
Julia. - Jan 27, 2004 8:23 pm (#443 of 2956)
Not a bad idea Min, but even though Harry is known to be rash and act with out thinking, I do think he'd have the good sence to tell Ron and Hermione, who would insist that he tell Dumbledore what he saw, or she (Hermione, that is), would go to Dumbledore herself, so I don't see that happening.
Gina R Snape - Jan 27, 2004 8:39 pm (#444 of 2956)
btw, welcome to the Lex, Min.
I think Harry's entire world view has changed. I worry it may go to his head in book 6 and he'll be uncontrollable.
I think Harry's interactions with Snape will be very dangerous and disconcertingly lacking in trepidation. He might feel invincible knowing his purpose in life is to reckon with Voldemort. And since he's gone to battle now several times, that's bound to inflate his ego a bit. Plus, his anger towards Snape is so white-hot that it might blind him to the fact that Snape is an authority figure.
It was pretty plain that the loss of points meant nothing to Harry. But Snape hasn't caught up to that yet. Harry will be playing by a new set of rules and I think Snape's treatment of Harry has been with kid gloves. I'm sure Snape is capable of far worse and we may see it yet of Harry pushes too far.
Rich - Jan 27, 2004 9:53 pm (#445 of 2956)
It kind of revolves around the way that HRH and everyone else in that year is starting to grow up, not only will they start to treat and react to teachers differently (Harry's change will be intriguing) but the teachers will have to start treating them a little differently. It will be interesting to see how Snape will change in his attitude towards them (if at all). Also, HRH and Snape are starting to develop a relationship that is not only teacher/student but "comrades" in the Order. Will this affect the way that they interact?
popkin - Jan 28, 2004 8:07 am (#446 of 2956)
Edited by Jan 28, 2004 8:09 am
About Harry saying to Snape that he's trying to decide which curse to use on Draco: I think Harry is just acting out his anger over Sirius' death. I don't think it so much signals a change in Harry's attitude toward Snape, but indicates how out of whack Harry's emotional state is in general.
Harry's got a summer to get his emotions under control (it would take longer in the real world, but I think we'll see a relatively stable Harry at the beginning of book 6). When Harry gets back to Hogwarts, if he is still holding Snape responsible for Sirius' death, there is likely to be a true confrontation between them. However, before everything comes to a head, Harry may face the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bellatrix, Lucius and LV are responsible for Sirius' death, since she killed him under Lucius' and Voldemort's orders.
Snape has said all along that Harry's father was an arrogant rule breaker, and Harry was not able to believe it until, following in his father's footsteps, Harry intrudes on Snape's private thoughts and sees the truth. Maybe Snape will be able to show Harry some other unpleasant truths in sixth year.
Devika - Jan 28, 2004 8:30 am (#447 of 2956)
I agree Popkin. Harry wasn't in the best state of mind when he said that. It was almost as if he didn't care what would happen if Snape did get really angry at him. He seemed to be in a frame of mind in which everything seems unimportant except venting out your anger... a subtle version of his behaviour in DD's office. But at the same time, there is a definite possibility that this could signal a change in his overall attitude maybe not just towards Snape. With Snape, I'm not sure if he entirely meant it when he accused him in DD's office. Agreed he hates Snape, but I'm sure Harry has a better judgement and upon further reflection will not feel so badly about Snape. I'm not saying that this will mean that they'll suddenly start getting along, but it might just be the beginning of a thaw in their relationship. Let's see.... I'm not sure about all this myself... it's pure speculation, but it could be quite ironical that Sirius' death helps Snape and Harry to overcome their feelings for each other... okay.... now I'm rambling.... I think I'm getting sleepy!
Peregrine - Jan 28, 2004 8:33 am (#448 of 2956)
Argh, I hate not having my books with me, so correct me if I?m wrong?. After Sirius died and Harry was venting at Dumbledore, isn?t there one little sentence tucked away in the chapter where Harry admits internally that it was his own fault but vocally he blames everyone else? Or am I completely making things up? I?ve always been under the impression that Harry was using Snape as a scapegoat because he couldn?t face the fact that it was his own forgetfulness and haste that caused Sirius? death?but deep down he knew Snape tried to help. And therefore Harry wouldn?t have to spend the summer getting over his anger towards Snape, but accepting his own fault instead.
In other words, I?ve never thought Harry truly hated Snape anymore than he ever did. The trying-to-decide-what-curse outburst reminded me more of Harry mouthing off to Umbridge in frustration. Like popkin said, it's more like his emotions are "out of whack" than an elevated hatred towards Snape.
Weeny Owl - Jan 28, 2004 9:29 am (#449 of 2956)
Harry and Snape's future relationship has so many variables that I can see JKR going a number of ways with it.
A lot will depend on outside factors over the summer... Occlumency with Dumbledore, what happens with the Dursleys, the return to 12 Grimmauld Place, whether or not Lupin, Ron, Hermione, Tonks, Luna, or even another character can get Harry to discuss Sirius's death, any attacks by Death Eaters, or even something else such as a new character being introduced who knew Sirius and Harry's parents.
Then, there's Harry's O.W.L. results and whether or not he's going to be taking Potions in his sixth year. JKR could go a number of ways with that as well.
I can see Harry and Snape's relationship calming down somewhat if they have a confrontation, and if someone else were involved such as Dumbledore who could make both of them see the situation from a different perspective. Maybe Harry finding out why Dumbledore trusts Snape or Snape seeing Harry as his own person and not a carbon copy of James might help both of them stop being so hard-headed.
I can also see things only getting worse between them until something happens that will knock them for a loop.
Whether their relationship improves or gets worse, I doubt if it will continue as it has.
Gina R Snape - Jan 28, 2004 9:29 am (#450 of 2956)
Yes, Peregrine, he does have a moment where he blames himself. But then there is a line where he says he'll 'never forgive Snape' (paraphrasing), which clearly leads to speculation about whether he will in some way always continue to blame Snape.
I really hope this kid gets some mental health counseling. Unfortunately, I doubt it wil happen, and wonder if it's even available in the wizarding world.
Where are the school social workers?! And how come Snape was never referred to one?
Edit: I see Weeny responded. I just wanted to add that I suspect Harry will not have gotten a perfect Potions grade. But I foresee Dumbledore forcing Snape to accept Harry in his Potions class anyway, which will lead to even more tension. Snape will be even more justified in his anger that Harry gets to disregard the rules because he's Harry Potter. And Snape will of course find new and fresh ways to take it out on Harry. I can't wait!
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