Time-Turners

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Time-Turners Empty Time-Turners

Post  Potteraholic on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:44 pm

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


bigearl - Apr 24, 2006 1:04 pm
Edited by Kip Carter May 28, 2006 1:05 am

The possession and use Time-Turners seems to be uncommon even in the Wizarding World. Among the restrictions placed on Time-Turners is of course secrecy, not telling anyone you have one.

The obvious question is, will one be used in Book 7?

It seems that many of the MoM’s Time-Turners were smashed during the battle at the end of OoTP. I believe the use and possession of Time-Turners may be more widespread than just Hermione’s in PoA. For instance Percy Weasley had 12 OWLs, Barty Crouch Jr. also had 12 OWLs, they must have used Time-Turners to get to all the classes, along with countless other Witches and Wizards through out the years.
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Time-Turners Empty Time-Turners (posts #1 to #30)

Post  Potteraholic on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:46 pm

Choices - Apr 24, 2006 3:08 pm (#1 of 30)

How do we know Barty Crouch, Jr. had 12 O.W.L.s? I must have missed that one. Is that in POA?




Finn BV - Apr 24, 2006 4:02 pm (#2 of 30)

GoF, Choices.

Bigearl, I don't think time-turners will reappear. I think that the entire purpose of Jo telling us that all the Ministry ones were destroyed is sort of a reassurance that they won't come back into play.

Also check out the thread NYCNomad, "+ Time Travel" #1, 21 Jul 2004 9:05 am.




Amilia Smith - Apr 24, 2006 4:05 pm (#3 of 30)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 5:05 pm

I think it is from GoF when Harry finds Sr. in the woods, and he is going in and out of focus. In one of his less than lucid moments, Sr. accepts congratulations on his son's good grades, and says how proud he is of him. Haven't got the book handy to look up the quote for sure, though.

Mills.

Edit: cross-posted with Finn




bigearl - Apr 25, 2006 8:28 am (#4 of 30)

Yes, GOF the chapter titled "The Madness of Mr. Crouch"

Also, terrible things can happen to wizards who misuse time-turners, I can see this as a possible fate for a Death Eater.




Choices - Apr 25, 2006 8:38 am (#5 of 30)

Yikes, I meant GOF. I had forgotten about that scene with Mr. Crouch in the forest - thanks for the reminder.




TheSaint - Apr 25, 2006 8:21 pm (#6 of 30)

Anyone think it is possible that all of this occurred because Dumbledore messed with time? Just a thought.




Soul Search - Apr 26, 2006 7:21 am (#7 of 30)

Dumbledore had to regret letting Tom riddle out in the wizarding world. Maybe he felt so guilty that he tried to correct his mistakes. Can't come up with even a remote canon hint, however.




Choices - Apr 26, 2006 9:26 am (#8 of 30)

How could Dumbledore have stopped Tom though, short of killing him at Hogwarts? Tom was really a model student - head boy, good grades, award for services to the school, etc. - at least on the surface. How was anyone to know what he was to become? True enough, they had hints about him, but you can't stop a student from entering the world based on circumstantial evidence.




Deb Zawacki - Apr 27, 2006 4:08 pm (#9 of 30)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 5:09 pm

I wonder if there are different strength time turners--Hermione had one that turned back by the hour--but what if someone had one that could turn back weeks or months or years--Voldemort could do 16 turns and instead of killing Lily simply knock her to the ground....

I could see Harry using one to go back and warn Sirius not to come to the ministry or Dumbledore not to go to the castle...or drink the green potion.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 27, 2006 5:12 pm (#10 of 30)

The only problem with that is that it has already happened. This whole topic is very confusing to me but it seems that if he went back in time and fixed all of these things that went badly, then they wouldn't have happened in the future, yet they we know that they have happened so they can't be changed. Does this make sense?? Its like two parallel worlds, the past and the future are both there and the future can change the past, which affects the future. So if Harry went back in time to warn Sirius, then Sirius would have had to be in the 6th book, yet he wasn't so if suddenly he showed up in the last book, then that just wouldn't make sense. Its soo hard for me to put this into words because time travel is and never will be possible. Time is the one thing you can never truly change. Hope this makes sense!




Magic Words - Apr 27, 2006 5:26 pm (#11 of 30)

Yes, the thing about the time travel in PoA is that even their first time through - when the trio is in Hagrid's hut - the same thing happens that happens the second time through. Harry sees himself conjure a Patronus, then later he actually does it. If Harry were ever to go back to the cave or to warn Sirius, we would be reading the results of his interference now, not the way things would have happened if he hadn't interfered.




geauxtigers - Apr 27, 2006 5:32 pm (#12 of 30)

Virginia, I get what you are saying and I agree. I don't think that anyone has gone back in time and changed things such as Voldemort. I have always thought that everything happens for a reason and I think DD is there as well. Too many classes is one thing, but going back and changing the past, is not very smart, DD says something in PoA along the lines of 'you see Harry the consequences of our actions are so complex that predicting the future is very hard indeed', or something to that extent. There’s too much of the past to be changed in order to make a difference. It’s like going back and time and trying to prevent a war or something, it’s basically counter productive because there will always be wars and it going to happen as much as we wish it wouldn't. Time travel is a very complex thing and it’s not something most wizards mess around with. I don't think we'll see it again, though I agree it would be nice to have Sirius back, but it won't happen. Its weird to think that right now as I'm typing this it will never ever be April 27th at 8:31 pm ever again. Gone can't go back! wow creeping myself out I think I'll leave now....




TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 7:52 pm (#13 of 30)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 8:52 pm

'Dumbledore had to regret letting Tom riddle out in the wizarding world. Maybe he felt so guilty that he tried to correct his mistakes. Can't come up with even a remote canon hint, however. '

That is just it though... it does not have to be related at all. Say he went back in time during his fight with Grindelwald and whatever he changed there gave rise to this Dark Lord. 'You see Harry the consequences of our actions are so complex that predicting the future is very hard indeed.' Remember Homer's trip through time, One donut can blow a whole species! LOL




Soul Search - Apr 28, 2006 7:58 am (#14 of 30)

I have this contention that everything in books 1 - 5 is really background for the book 6-7 finality.

Time Turners were introduced in PoA and then we were reminded of them in HBP.

Perhaps, more importantly, Harry learned, first hand, about time turners. In particular, the exchange between Hermione and Harry where Harry wants to rush into the cabin and grab Scabbers/Wormtail. Hermione cautions by asking what would Harry think if he saw himself. Harry replies that he would think some dark magic was at work.

If, in book seven, Harry sees his future self, he will now know what is going on and be more likely to accept that it is just his future self, rather than any dark magic, and pay attention to what future Harry has to say. He learned enough in PoA to understand what is going on.

I predict that a time turner will be used in book seven and Harry will accept that it is his future self (or maybe Hermione) and will take the future counsel provided.




haymoni - Apr 28, 2006 9:43 am (#15 of 30)

So we'll have a bit of "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" in Book 7???

Maybe Keanu Reeves can play Older Harry!!!!

I know - not British!!




zelmia - Apr 28, 2006 3:19 pm (#16 of 30)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 4:21 pm

Yeah, and he can't even do a British accent.

Anyway, there are a couple of very good explanations of what happened during the Time Travel sequence of PA (on the old Time Travel Thread) here: Time Turner Explanation and here: Another Explanation

I don't believe even Rowling ever thought of creating a Time Turner that could go back days, weeks, etc. I am of the camp who believe that Time Turners are for increments of up to - maybe - a few hours only.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 28, 2006 7:58 pm (#17 of 30)

I must say that was a great way to explain it zelmia! It makes sense and this is how I look at it in my head, but without the string! I can't really explain how I understand it, but it makes sense in my head. I'm impressed that you can visualize it like that, it even helped me get it straighter in my mind! I also don't think that it can go back more than a couple of hours.




Deb Zawacki - Apr 29, 2006 1:57 pm (#18 of 30)

I'm not sure that everything about the return in time happened exactly the same-- I'm thinking movie here--but it seems like the first time they saw the axe fall on Buckbeak--but the second time they prevented that--recall Dumbledore saying that two lives could be saved--- but he warned them against being seen.

Why else would anyone want to use a time turner (excepting Hermione's compulsive work ethic) if not to change or correct something from the past--

Although the series skirts issues of religion explicitly, it does deal with past present. future, memories captured and bottled, psychic prophesy, afterlife as ghost or "moving on" past the veil.... Time travel doesn't seem that out of the question....

I find the "selective" approach to what is possible in JKR's magic world frustrating. On one hand she has absolutes like protection caused by sacrificing one's self for love, protection so strong it deflected the most powerful curse in the wizarding world-- a doorway or veil into another dimension, a machine that ages and regresses a human head---but other things that might make sense or a part of contemporary human/psychic philosophy are out of the question. . . .

If one can go back in time, then going back in time must have a purpose--not just simply so Harry could see himself cast a Patronus--but to save Buckbeak who ultimately saved Sirius. . .




The One - Apr 29, 2006 2:02 pm (#19 of 30)

They do not see that Buckbeak was beheaded, they hear a thud and assumes he was. Later they realise that the sound was the executer axing the fence in frustration.




zelmia - Apr 29, 2006 2:17 pm (#20 of 30)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 3:18 pm

Deb brings up a good point. I tend to look at Time Turners the same way I look at microwave ovens. Though the microwave oven was invented with the idea in mind of being able to cook entire meals much faster than a conventional oven, the actual modern purpose of a microwave is simply to reheat leftovers and pop popcorn.

Though cooking an entire meal is certainly possible using only a microwave oven, it's definitely something that takes an enormous amount of practice to perfect the technique, and the "side effects" and difficulties (i.e. uneven cooking, rock hard food, etc) are too numerous to make this worth most people's time and energy.

We could say the same of Time Turners: they take an enormous amount of practice to use properly, use of them they can have some pretty devastating effects, and most wizards probably use them as a convenience mechanism rather than whatever the original intention behind their invention might have been.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 23, 2009 8:10 pm (#21 of 30)
Edited Jan 23, 2009 9:30 pm

I don't want to begin a new thread so...

wynnleaf brought up time travel on another thread, and I thought it might be fun to explore time travel and what concepts JKR intended to expose (what else do we have until JKR gives us more!? - answer: writing your own masterpiece... heh heh)

Look at ‘future Harry’ casting the Patronus to save ‘present Harry’ and Sirius: the chicken and egg scenario. Particularly because Luna correctly - according to Rowena - offered the answer to this riddle, it seems JKR is inviting us to enter the ‘maze’ of this mind-bending stream of consciousness. Into the prophecy-esque realm, if Harry had known he was supposed to cast the Patronus (rather than going to the spot in order to see his father) could he have believed himself capable of doing it beforehand?

And, regarding prophecy/destiny and time travel, how would one know whether you are ‘changing’ something or are simply at the right place at the right time, doing what you were meant to do?

For those so inclined, I am interested in comments, thoughts, silly remarks.




tandaradei - Jan 24, 2009 3:27 pm (#22 of 30)

I have logic problems with time travel, and think that's why Jo abandoned it as a driving theme.

For instance, suppose you travel backwards in time. If you were then in the REAL time in the past, you would not have already encountered the possibilities of time travel and thus in this past time could not be aware that you had travelled! It would be a backward, useless loop. So, when you eventually get back to the time you chose to travel back, you'd just disappear from that moment on and never be seen again, without knowing that the logic of going back in REAL time would require your ceasing to exist anytime in the future.

Lets say you travel into the future. Well, how about the in-between times of your existence, then? Would you have in-between memories of travelling into the future, then coming back to live from that moment on with those memories? Or would those memories be of your life outside of time travel stuff?? That would mean, then, that your travelling into the future would only put you ahead in your life, with memories of in-between, but without having lived those parts. Also, in effect you couldn't really then know you had travelled.

Its logic trips like this that make me leery of true time travel.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2009 3:59 pm (#23 of 30)

tanda -- I'll have to work out what you mean when you say REAL time. Or could you expound?

In my opinion, as in PoA with "future Harry" for instance, it did not matter what his "past" self knew but what his "future" self knew that mattered. The "future" self has the vital information (similar to a prophecy/divining) with which to participate in (not change) the "past". They are intertwined, not separate events. Note, that DD at Hagrid's cabin knew to delay Macnair and even kept talking for just long enough for H&H to get Buckbeak into the trees. When Buckbeak was missing, DD was "amused". He knew.

I'll be adding to this in a bit -- *must compose thoughts*




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2009 4:44 pm (#24 of 30)

Your use of REAL time seems to be less complicated than I was reading it as : )

IMO, you would not "disappear" any more than the landscape would disappear. This seems to be what occurs in PoA and is what seems to be so dangerous about time travel. That in REAL time "you" are standing there at the ice cream shop and when "future you" arrives must remain hidden.

For me, to put in Physics terms, the Unified Field includes an imprint not just of the environment but of the entire contents of that point in space/time. That includes your "past" physical form, even if your consciousness is with you "now".

Would you have in-between memories of travelling into the future, then coming back to live from that moment on with those memories? Or would those memories be of your life outside of time travel stuff??

IMO you would not have any knowledge of what occurred between the "time" in which you left and the "time" of your destination. I don't think "future traveling" would be a very wise idea, personally...

To me, time traveling into the past has much in common with prophecy/divination.

There is an esoteric statement:

To err is human
To forgive, divine
To forget: Diviner

The information from divination could be viewed as a way (in order to not run into your "future self" and freak out) to convey needed information from the future to the present. Given what, to me, Trelawney comes up with in the series, I don't see JKR's view on divination being "it's rubbish".

edited for clarity - if that's possible...




Quinn Crockett - Jan 24, 2009 6:30 pm (#25 of 30)

Shadow, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that the author did not keep to the parameters she outlined for "time turning" in her own universe? Or that she didn't keep to the real world concept of "time travel"? Because in real life there are, as I understand it, numerous theories for how the concept of time travel could function in the real universe. I am very interested to hear (well, read) more of what you have to say




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 25, 2009 11:20 am (#26 of 30)

Thanks, Quinn! I do not necessarily think JKR broke her own rules about time travel, and I agree there are as many theories on the subject as there are people crazy enough to sit around contemplating it. I am trying to address this topic regarding the HP world and not go off on a tangent or two or three, unless I can bring it back to HP.

That said, I won’t go into future time travel as we do not read about it and, as mentioned, it seems, uh, unpleasant unless you had someone waiting on the ‘other side’, in the future, ready to ‘catch’ you and protect you or at least fill you in on the situation. I am thinking of the film ‘Kate and Leopold’ and Leopold was very lucky he found people to take care of him! (I might need to rent that one again, actually).

Back to PoA Hermione’s Secret: to me, since H&H are moving back in time they have all the information they need to participate in the past in order to *change* the future or outcome of an undesirable event. They didn’t know they had all they needed because it was DD’s idea, of course. But they caught on pretty quickly.

Hermione’s talking about the Wizarding Law that they can’t change anything is, for me, another wink about how Hermione cannot fathom or at least is very uncomfortable with rule breaking. Obviously, they changed things in the sense that they *performed actions* which no one else knew to do in the past. Had they simply went back in time and watched that would have been a different story. Literally!

They were not ‘interfering’ with the outcome or the ‘future’, they were participating. Had Harry not gone to see his father on the bank of the lake, what would have happened?

I'd love to go into the time travel/prophecy thing later.




Quinn Crockett - Jan 25, 2009 4:22 pm (#27 of 30)

But is Hermione talking about Wizard Law or simple physics? Seems to me that they were incapable of interfering, of changing the outcome of their "present" because those things had already happened in the present. Only by going back in time Harry and Hermione simply got another perspective on how those events were actually put in motion - and learned that they, themselves were the cause.

What I mean is, for example, Buckbeak did escape. That happened in the "present". But it's only when Harry and Hermione go back in time that they are able to see that they were the ones who released him. The Patronus did save Sirius but Harry doesn't learn that he was the one who sent it until he went back the three hours. Which is what he means by "I knew I could do it because I'd already done it." So I think Harry didn't really have much of a choice about whether or not to go down to the lake.

They were not ‘interfering’ with the outcome or the ‘future’, they were participating. - Sorry, I didn't catch this at first. So, I guess we're saying the same thing

I haven't seen "Kate and Leopold". And I'm not sure one could really go to the "future". But if you could, I agree that you would have to have someone waiting for you there.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2009 3:09 pm (#28 of 30)
Edited Jan 26, 2009 4:52 pm

More musings...

Going back to read in PoA end of Ch. 16 and into 17, if you keep in mind what is going on with ‘future’ H&H, the descriptions become interesting. As HRH leave Hagrid’s at the end of Chapter 16:

‘Slowly, in a kind of horrified trance, Harry, Ron and Hermione set of silently around Hagrid’s house. As they reached the other side, the front door closed with a sharp snap.’

They are walking by their ‘future’ selves at that moment. It is interesting to note that while they are in close proximity, JKR uses the word *trance* as if the consciousness of the ‘future’ selves nearby is affecting their minds. And, when they reach the other side of Hagrid's house, there is a *snap*. This reminds me of hypnotism: a state of trance, awakened by a snap of the fingers.

There are other references to senses or physicality being impaired:

- ‘Harry felt strangely unreal’
- ‘Buckbeak seemed to know something was happening’
- ‘But they didn’t move’
- ‘Ron stopped dead’
- ‘Hermione swayed on the spot’
- ‘Harry’s mind had gone blank’
- ‘The three of them stood transfixed’
- ‘Darkness was settling like a spell around them’

I also love the connection here: at the end of chapter 16, Hermione exclaims: ‘They did it!’ referring to the assumed execution. Then at the beginning of chapter 22, Harry says to DD: ‘We did it!’ referring to their successfully preventing the execution.

I also like the spiral staircase as a reference to changing states of consciousness or reality. It is used both when H&H return from time traveling: ‘down a tightly spiraling stone staircase’ (reminds me of the cartoon-ish black & white spiral often symbolizing hypnosis or trance) and also when HRH go into Divination for the first time in Talons and Tea Leaves: ‘Harry, Ron and Hermione climbed the tightly spiraling steps, getting dizzier and dizzier, until at last they heard the murmur of voices above them’

Regarding an earlier post about ‘disappearing’ when going back in time:

I think it is important to note that the one using the Time Turner never ceases to exist in the ‘present’ and therefore never truly ‘disappears’. When Hermione pops in and out she seems to be rushing to arrive in the exact spot from which she ‘left’. When H&H turn the Timer and ‘vanish’, they are simultaneously arriving in the hallway. So when H&H in the hospital ward ‘vanish’, the ‘future’ H&H in the hall are now ‘present’ H&H, taking up where the ‘vanished’ H&H left off. This is a very convoluted way of pointing out that: so long as you return at the appointed time, there will be no ‘rip in the continuum’.

Edited for grammar and to attempt clarity : }




Orion - Jan 28, 2009 9:03 am (#29 of 30)

But there are always two sets of people around, not one? That's the whole point of a time-turner.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 28, 2009 12:55 pm (#30 of 30)

Hi Orion,

I agree that one goes back in time in order to meet oneself or at least the circumstances surrounding oneself.

I was trying to address tandaradei's statement about "disappearing" from the Present Time when one goes back. My response, above, was giving the example of, in Chapter 7 of PoA, Hermione was "hurrying up the stairs" when returning from Time Turning to a class so there were no "gaps" in her existence in the continuum.

The other example is that "hallway" H&H went from "future" to "present" time as soon as "hospital ward" H&H vanished. So there is never a point in Present Time in which there are no H&H. If they ceased to exist in Present Time (i.e., if "future" H&H didn't get back in time before "hospital ward" H&H vanished), then H&H would cease to exist in the space/time continuum. This would be very bad, causing a "rip" of sorts, or as The Matrix movie called it, a "glitch". JM2K : )
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