Harry Potter

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Harry Potter

Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:32 am

This is an archive of the three Harry Potter threads orginally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011.
Archived by Lady Arabella


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Harry Potter 1 (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 10, 2003)

Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:02 am

Edited by Kip Carter May 2, 2006 7:51 am

I edited the title of this thread from Harry Potter #1 to Harry Potter (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 10, 2003). When this thread was closed, a new thread Harry Potter continued the discussion. - Kip Mar 9, 2004 9:55am

I edited the title of this thread by adding in #1, added an additional thread Could Harry be a Metamorphmagus? at the end as message #399 along with the 13 messages that had been at part of that thread, and closed out posting to this thread. - Kip Nov 13, 2003 1:56am

Ah.. can't forget Harry. Will he die? Will he be successful in killing Voldemort? Will the connection between the two only grow stronger? Will Harry ever get around to practicing occlumency properly? How will Sirius's death affect him?


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Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:05 am



fidelio - Aug 29, 2003 1:02 pm (#1 of 412)

Has he done well enough on his OWLS to get into the Advanced Potions classes he needs to be an Auror? What color will Snape turn when he finds this out?



Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 1:04 pm (#2 of 412)

I know! There is some part of me that really wants Harry to do well on his Potions O.W.L... Snape always thinks he is such a goof at it, it'd be nice to prove him wrong.



Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 29, 2003 1:07 pm (#3 of 412)

I asked somewhere previously in another forum whether Snape had delibrately been marking Harry down in potions and may be better than we are lead to believe. What do people think.



fidelio - Aug 29, 2003 1:13 pm (#4 of 412)

It's possible--he's been working to make Harry look like a dunce since the first day in class--whether for good reasons [to help hide his talents from Lucius Malfoy and other DEs, for example] or for bad [to humiliate the son of James Potter any way he can manage] I cannot say. Of course, he could be doing it for both reasons, which seems like such a Snapely thing to do somehow!



Dr.Filibuster - Aug 29, 2003 1:28 pm (#5 of 412)

JK seemed to emphasise how well Harry (and Neville) actually performed at potions when Snape wasn't putting them off.

How many times did she make little comments to that effect in OoP? It's as if she's hinting that they may do ok so we can't complain that it's out of the blue when they pass their OWLs.

Of course Harry must do better than just Ok if he wants to opt for Potion NEWTS. Do you think they do November re-sits at Hogwarts?



Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2003 2:14 pm (#6 of 412)

Probably not, otherwise Mrs Weasley probably would have made Fred and George do them.



Hem Hem - Aug 29, 2003 3:12 pm (#7 of 412)
Edited Aug 29, 2003 4:13 pm

Even if Harry does fail, he has McGongagall's word that she'll get him to be an Auror if it's the last thing she does. Let's not worry too much about Harry's grades in that class, because with McGonagall's pledge and with Snape being such a main character in the story, I think it's incredibly likely that Harry will be back in Snape's class.



Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 4:54 pm (#8 of 412)

What I want to know is if Harry will get to redo his History of Magic test and his Astronomy exam! He was a bit distracted during both!



Saralinda - Aug 29, 2003 8:09 pm (#9 of 412)

But he doesn't need either of those courses to become an Auror -- so even a barely-passing will do. He nearly finished both of them; maybe he'll do OK.



Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 30, 2003 1:18 am (#10 of 412)

I wonder if they will mark the practical exam a little more leiniently due to the hagrid/McGonigall incident.



Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 7:58 am (#11 of 412)

There has been speculation that Harry will die somewhere in the last book. I don't buy it. JKR has created a rich tapestry of a world, one the practically revolves around him. It makes no sense for her to kill him off. First of all, these are first and foremost children's books. I don't think the death of the main character will make them that appealling to children, or to their parents (can you imagine having to console your child because his/her favorite character was killed in a book?) Secondly, these books are about the growth and development of Harry. Not Herminonie, not Ron, not DD or Hagrid, but Harry. I think she plans these as the story of Harry's life and role in VWII, not the end of his life as well.

I'm not saying that it will be happily ever after, or that their won't be deaths, but Harry won't be one. I'd bet my entire Potter collection on it!



Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 1:15 pm (#12 of 412)

While I don't think Harry will die either, one minor point- these are not children's books and JKR has said as much. They were marketed as children's book, as that is the only way anyone would publish them, originally, but JKR has always had a grander plan regarding them, and originally wanted them published as tales for adults. It's just happens that her main characters are children. But she did not originally write them for children. Make sense?



popkin - Aug 30, 2003 9:06 pm (#13 of 412)
Edited by Aug 30, 2003 10:16 pm

I thought I read in an interview that JKR did regard the books as a children's series, and had read all but the last book to her daughter (now 7 years old). It seems she thought OotP too long to hold her daughter's interest, but thought she would want to read it within the next year or so.

I look to see Harry getting a good number of OWL's, but not in History of Magic. He did so pooly. Perhaps McGonagal will tutor him in that subject and it will suddenly become interesting to him. I'd like to see that, even if it isn't important to a career as an auror. It would satisfy my desire to see Harry appreciate and enjoy history.

If Hogwarts uses a bell curve, or any kind of a grading curve, Harry could get a passing grade in Astronomy. All the students were distracted for part of the time by the events of the evening.

At any rate, I'm sure Harry will need help from McGonagal in SOMETHING, else I don't think JKR would have had her make the promise.



Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:12 pm (#14 of 412)

Well, there's a difference between a book being appropiate for children as opposed to writing them for children. They're appropiate for children, because JKR is fairly moral and writes in a non-sensational way (not a lot of cussing, bad words, sexual situations etc). But you have to admit, some of the darker tones in these books do not work well with younger children.



popkin - Aug 30, 2003 9:19 pm (#15 of 412)
Edited by Aug 30, 2003 10:22 pm

Hi, Sly girl!

I really like the books, and I am certainly not a child. When we read the books (together as a family), I do sometimes gloss over things - especially the darker aspects of GOF.

I edited my last post before reading your reply. I'm not sure of the exact wording of the interview. I don't even know if it was a quote or a paraphrase of JKR's words.



Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:35 pm (#16 of 412)

To get back onto Harry, a bit.. did anyone find it weird that when Harry was taking his History of Magic exam, some of the 'answers' sort of came to him, when he wanted them? For instance, he was staring intently at Parvarti's hair and wishing he could use his legilemens to hear her answer and he noticed a *wasp* (or maybe a bee..hmm) buzzing in the window and then suddenly had the right answer.. It's a very weird passage when you re-read.



Hem Hem - Aug 30, 2003 9:43 pm (#17 of 412)

I seem to remember Harry thinking, "oh, if ONLY I could legilimens her right now," or something like that. And since you need eye contact for legilimency, I think it was just Harry getting the answers out of his own head. But I could be wrong.

And I'm pretty sure the lexicon also thinks that Harry did NOT use legilimency to get this information. Check the legilimency page, it's really good.



Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:44 pm (#18 of 412)

Well, no.. I didn't mean I thought he *did* use it, that's not what I was getting at. He was thinking it, but I don't think that's how he got the info...



Hem Hem - Aug 30, 2003 9:46 pm (#19 of 412)

Sorry, I guess I didn't get what you meant. So, how do you think he got the info?



Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 31, 2003 2:05 am (#20 of 412)

I always thouhgt in exams that you either knew the answer, it was somewhere in the back of my brain(a few fuzzy unconnected facts) or you did not know at all. To all of a sudden go from having no idea to knwoing the correct answer is quite a strech.



fidelio - Aug 31, 2003 8:40 am (#21 of 412)

I don't know--there have plenty of times when I thought I might know something but simply couldn't locate the information in the badly-organized filing system I call my brain. I thought Harry's experience in the History of Magic OWL was the same sort of thing, especially since he was short on sleep and stressed out over Hagrid's situation.



Landman - Aug 31, 2003 8:41 am (#22 of 412)
Edited Aug 31, 2003 9:42 am

The Wasp(Bee) gave him the answer - DD is a bumblebee, remember?

DD is the only Animagus that can turn into a Giant Squid and a BumbleBee -- remarkable!



OkieAngel - Aug 31, 2003 8:54 am (#23 of 412)

Whoa, where did I miss something?? DD is a squid and Bumblebee?? Is this just more wonderful sarcasm, or was I sleeping when this anamagi info was passed around? I mean, I get the name connotation for Bumblebee, but the Squid??



Landman - Aug 31, 2003 8:58 am (#24 of 412)
Edited Aug 31, 2003 9:58 am

OkieAngel, it's more sarcasm then anything else. The group here has speculated that DD is the Giant Squid - some are convinced it's true. See the archive thread near the bottom of the main page called "Slytherin Prefect, show me the evidence that Dumbledore is the Giant Squid"



OkieAngel - Aug 31, 2003 9:03 am (#25 of 412)

Thank You, I was afraid I had skived off class that day or something Smile



Arrows' Biggest Fan - Aug 31, 2003 12:30 pm (#26 of 412)

I think Harry will NOT take Potions in his sixth year (because he didn't get an O), but McGonagall will tutor him in that subject, then Snape will take over the DADA job in Harry's seventh year and Harry will do Potions with the new teacher (who takes students with grades that are less that Outstanding).



siobhan - Aug 31, 2003 1:30 pm (#27 of 412)

But Snape is central to the whole story and where is Harry going to have any real encounters with him if not for Potions. We still have to find out a lot about Snapes past and since in the first 5 books that has been through classes with Snape I think JKR is going to have to continue Potions as one of Harry's NEWT classes



Sly Girl - Aug 31, 2003 3:15 pm (#28 of 412)

Landaman sarcastically got the point I was making. I thought the wasp 'buzzing' about was quite... I don't know. I know in the Unoffcial Guide to Harry Potter they support the idea that Dumbledore's animagus is a bee or wasp or bug of some sort. It is a bit far fetched to think Dumbledore was buzzing the answers. lol That passage just struck me as odd because Harry goes from having no clue to suddenly having one, as though the answer just flitted into his head from nowhere. Reckon it is just one of those mysteries.



Marie E. - Aug 31, 2003 4:00 pm (#29 of 412)

The first time I read that passage I considered for a moment that the buzzing could be Dumbledore. Perhaps too much forum has clouded my reasoning.



TGF - Aug 31, 2003 4:07 pm (#30 of 412)

Well, Dumbledore did say he watched Harry closer than he could ever know, but buzzing around Harry's ear seems a bit too close even for him. I mean, Harry might well have swatted DD into oblivion. That wouldn't have been pleasant... I can see the Daily Prophet headline the next time...

BOY WHO LIVED SQUASHES HEADMASTER 'It's not my fault!' Harry told reporters last night before being taken to Azkaban, 'He was bugging me!' Bugging indeed...

^^



cara - Aug 31, 2003 4:24 pm (#31 of 412)

Can anyone see Harry ending up with Luna? i see it. There was something about that last scene with her that was special. Hmm.



Marye Lupin - Aug 31, 2003 4:32 pm (#32 of 412)

I can see it. I haven't really made up my mind about it but I'm open to it. If I weren't fairly convinced Ron is going to end up with Hermione, I'd actually see her with Ron. I really like her and hope she'll be more important in the next two books.



Denise P. - Aug 31, 2003 5:46 pm (#33 of 412)

Guys, please remember to post to the appropriate thread. There is a thread set up for 'ships, this is set up for Harry.



night41 - Sep 1, 2003 2:46 pm (#34 of 412)

Boy I can not wait to read that chapter here Harry Volly face off.



night41 - Sep 1, 2003 2:50 pm (#35 of 412)

I think Harry will live though the final battle



Grant the Great - Sep 1, 2003 6:29 pm (#36 of 412)

I know this is part of the WAY earlier part of the conversation, but I believe that Harry will not pass his Potions exam, but Dumbledore will force Snape to allow him in (whether for obvious reasons or not). Just a thought.



azi - Sep 2, 2003 11:35 am (#37 of 412)

I think McGonagall will force Snape to let Harry take potions. Harry will get 'acceptable' but for potions you normally need outstanding so here you see MCGonagall's promise/vow thing.



Lisaren - Sep 2, 2003 11:48 am (#38 of 412)

I know Harry stated he was interested in being an Auror, but I believe he will end up in some other profession. I know he is best at DADA in school, but I believe it was the most glamorous thing he could come up with, not his heart's desire.

Back to some earlier posts, I started out believing there is no way Harry Potter could die at the end of the series, but I am beginning to change my mind. It could be in the final battle or it could be in the follow-up chapter. Harry Potter lived to the age of 90 and had 12 kids.



Linda17 - Sep 2, 2003 2:11 pm (#39 of 412)

Harry will have to kill Volderment or be killed and I think Harry will not be able to kill him instead he I think Harry will forgive him and through him forgiving Volderment Volderment will die from the postive emotions. Maybe Harry and Luna Lovegood will hook up in the 6th and 7th book and Ron and hermoine might hook up also. I have a feeling that Harry might die in the 7th book.



Professor Kosh - Sep 2, 2003 5:11 pm (#40 of 412)

I also have doubts as to whether Harry will be willing to activly kill Voldemort, when it comes down to the final battle. I think it likely that somehow Voldemort will kill himself somehow, probably by forcing Harry into some act of defense (himself or someone else?) which ends up causing Volde's death. I do not see Harry, or anyone else, forgiving Voldemort. While there is a theme of second chances in JKR's world, Voldemort is well beyond that.



Hem Hem - Sep 2, 2003 5:20 pm (#41 of 412)

Prof. Kosh, in the room in the Department of Mysteries that contains the element that Voldy despises, there's a tank full of hearts. Voldy will get lured in there and attacked by the hearts.

Okay, this had nothing to do with Harry...it's time to get back on topic.



Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 8:30 am (#42 of 412)

I think Harry's going to get an Outstanding on his Potions O.W.L. Okay, aside from just spiting Snape, which is reason enough by itself, IMHO, the NEWT level Potions class is bound to be pretty small, since only the top students are admitted, and that makes it a great oppirtunity for Harry to finally have a class with some Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs in in, as well as Slytherins.

Harry's parents were Head Boy and Girl, shouldn't he have *some* talent?



fidelio - Sep 3, 2003 8:45 am (#43 of 412)

Perhaps Malfoy didn't do brilliantly on his Potions OWL either and the trade-off for letting him into Potions will be Snape consenting to take Harry.

But I have to say--maybe Snape's teaching style has been aimed at making the pressure of the OWL seem like nothing compared to a double Postions class with him--so lots of people do better than expected Sort of like the Marine drill instructor being so awful nothing you encounter afterwards can rattle you!



timrew - Sep 3, 2003 9:27 am (#44 of 412)

Voldy will get lured in there and attacked by the hearts.

So that's how he's going to go! He suffers a heart attack.



fidelio - Sep 3, 2003 9:29 am (#45 of 412)

TIM!!!!!! I was drinking when I read that!!!



timrew - Sep 3, 2003 9:34 am (#46 of 412)

Sorry, fidelio! Nothing hot, I hope?



fidelio - Sep 3, 2003 9:54 am (#47 of 412)

I had to clean the computer screen.



Detail Seeker - Sep 3, 2003 10:30 am (#48 of 412)

As for Harry suddenly knowing the answers in his exam: The buzzing wasp is one thing, but this may be a red herring - to what ??? But: Before coming to Hogwarts, we know, that Harry was able to do some "emotional magic" at quite a level. Did he loose these abilities during the process of learning real magic ? So , is there any chance of being able to find some way of gettting to "see" the answers given by Parvati by means unknown to him via this type of magic ? What do you think ?



OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 11:03 am (#49 of 412)

I don't think Harry lost his "emotion magic" at all, remember Aunt Madge bobbing along the ceiling??



Marye Lupin - Sep 3, 2003 12:42 pm (#50 of 412)

I would be very surprised if Harry doesn't take NEWT Potions next year, not only because he needs it to become an Auror, but also because Snape is too important character for Harry not to have a class with him (I think that if Snape ever gets the DADA job it will be in the 7th book). If he doesn't get an 'O', I like fidelio's idea that Snape would be forced to admit Harry in order to let Malfoy in because neither gets an 'O' (I'm not saying it couldn't happen but if McGonnagall or Dumbledore force him to let Harry in without a good reason it would be extremely obvious favoritism).



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Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:05 am



Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 12:53 pm (#51 of 412)

I question if McGonnagall would try to force Snape to let Harry in his NEWT class. She seems to have too much academic integrity to try to force another teacher to lower his standards. Perhaps he might get private tutoring, or Snape (like Marye said) is forced to lower them himself to admit Malfoy, so Harry get in. Personally, I'd like to see Harry get an 'O', and thus tick Snape off! (Although I doubt it...)



S.E. Jones - Sep 3, 2003 1:06 pm (#52 of 412)

Hey, if he has to lower his standards maybe we'll see Neville in there again too....



OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 1:08 pm (#53 of 412)

Poor Neville, he deserves a couple of Snape-free years at Hogwarts, doncha think?

Smile



S.E. Jones - Sep 3, 2003 1:10 pm (#54 of 412)

Yeah, but if he's ever going to come up with a cure for his parents he'll need more potions knowledge. Wink



TGF - Sep 3, 2003 1:30 pm (#55 of 412)

As much as I'd like to see Harry get an 'O' in potions, I have doubts about that. Judging by the description of how he did in OotP, I'd say he's very much in the 'A' to 'E' category... However, I like the idea of Snape having to stoop for Draco (To appease Lucius, as that's the only reason why the kid does well to start with) and then McGonnagall calling him on that and forcing him to take Harry. Thus is McGonnagall's academic integrity maintained, and Harry allowed to take potions.



rettoP yrraH - Sep 3, 2003 8:37 pm (#56 of 412)

Harry still has his emotonal magic...it made Uncle V. let go of him in OoP



OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 9:38 pm (#57 of 412)

I was wondering about that, retto...if Harry caused that jolt or if someone else cast it, but know that I re-read the passage it doesn't seem like anyone else was there. This brings up a question of mine I've been pondering for awhile. Harry seems able to do quite a bit of this "emotion magic." We've seen it since book 1. However, it's common thought that wizards need a wand to focus their magic, unlike say House-elves, yet DD seems quite competent in casting spells w/o his wand (or words, for that matter) as well. I guess my question is...Is this something that Harry can learn to control and use as an advantage??



rettoP yrraH - Sep 3, 2003 9:44 pm (#58 of 412)

Doesent seem like someone else...the some one else was off after cauldrons...Seems any way that all magicfolk can do this kind of magic, Hargid says so in the first book, 'Any thin' strange ever happen to ya when you were scared...' Nevill says it too '...and then I bounced...across the road'



Daniele S. - Sep 4, 2003 2:32 am (#59 of 412)

We are told that it is hard but not impossible to do magic without a wand, also during the battle at the end of OOP one of the death eaters hits Hermione with a charm even if he is unable to speak. I think that words and wands help but are not strictlyy necessary as one's power grows the use of these becomes less important. DD Vold are able to do magic in silence and without using the wand Dani



Harold Pinta - Sep 4, 2003 4:31 am (#60 of 412)

It was said in the first book I believe that the wand is necessary to focus your magic. Maybe Harry's extra talent is that he might become very good at this. He certainly cannot use his wand against Voldy, because of the Fawkes tailfeather connection. JKR has several of these clues scattered over the course of the series. one thing I pretty sure of is that Harry needs something else than "ordinary' wand magic to finish of Voldemort. He is going to kill Voldemort. I'm unsure whether Harry is going to survive. I think one quality Harry posseses that Voldy doesn't is the power of selfsacrifice (Voldemort goal is immortality after all.) I do not want Harry to die of course!



siobhan - Sep 4, 2003 11:24 am (#61 of 412)

Who said there were tanks of hearts in the DoM. Thats disgusting. I just thought it was a room full of shimmering light but now i'm just getting horrible images of hearts. I won't be able to sleep tonight now. You don't honestly think that is it do you? please say it was a joke because i think i'll skip that chapter if that is it.



Denise P. - Sep 4, 2003 12:35 pm (#62 of 412)

It was a tank of brains, not hearts.



siobhan - Sep 4, 2003 12:49 pm (#63 of 412)

Sorry wasn't about the brain room, someone said that the room filled with love had a tank of hearts. urgh! sorry should have made it clearer



Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 4:44 pm (#64 of 412)

Don't worry, Little Miss Giggles. It was a joke.

I sure hope you don't lose sleep over it! If you do, PLEAAASE except my apology!

Jackie



OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 4:51 pm (#65 of 412)

I agree the tank o' hearts was disgusting, but the joke about Voldy dying because of a "heart" attack was too clever!



Paul Patil - Sep 4, 2003 8:53 pm (#66 of 412)

I'm really hoping our Harry doesn't die in the end! One thing worries me, however; I seem to recall J.K saying something to the effect of we really don't find out why some people become ghosts and others don't until the last book. Since the whole series is from Harry's point of view, and our one ghost's perspective wasn't too helpful, it's got me a bit concerned! Then again, I can't imagine her letting Voldie triumph! So please let me be mistaken on this.

PaulPatil



schoffst - Sep 5, 2003 12:15 pm (#67 of 412)

It seems to me that Harry did, and still does, quite a bit of "emotional" magic--the magic without a wand. Especially when he was younger (before Hogwarts). SS lists some pretty amazing stuff (ie "jumping" to the top of the school roof, growing back his hair overnight, etc) that really couldn't be explained away by muggle standards.

My question is: Is this normal? I know magical children do some strange things, but do they do it as often, or as powerfully, as Harry does? Fred and George only turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider, and Neville bounced on the ground (evidence that wizards are hard to kill). That seems like small stuff compared to blowing up and levitating your aunt.



Sly Girl - Sep 5, 2003 12:18 pm (#68 of 412)

Well, just to agrue a point, Neville's act of magic probably meant a lot to him at the time! As well as the twin's 'teddy bear' incident. I don't think Harry has a special gift in emotional magic, but I do think he is powerful.



S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 12:52 pm (#69 of 412)

I agree Sly. And, didn't Neville fall from a second or third floor window and then bounce down the street? I'd say that certainly compares to blowing up your aunt. Also, Colin Creevey even made a comment about not knowing all that weird stuff he did was magic till he got his Hogwarts letter, so Muggle-born wizards do use emotional magic. I think perhaps, though, that Harry may have done more on a regular basis than most kids because he grew up in an emotionally unstable environment.



siobhan - Sep 5, 2003 2:15 pm (#70 of 412)

Thank God! i was so disturbed by that image. Back to Harry, I have always thought he was a v powerful wizard. Hermione is powerful because she reads books but Harry has a more DD style to his magical abilities. His emotional magic shows he does not always need a wand which suggests to me that it won't be avada kedavra killing Voldie but Harry's own branch of emotional magic. Thoughts??



Hem Hem - Sep 5, 2003 2:31 pm (#71 of 412)

Unless you're REALLY good, emotional magic is typically unfocused. To do something like killing Voldy, Harry will need to make otpimal use of all of his ability...so I think he'd be better off trying to use his wand.

Then again, he may be able to do away with Voldy without a spell at all...in which case, whether he uses the wand or not is ireelevant.



S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 7:22 pm (#72 of 412)

I don't see why he couldn't use his wand. As long as Voldy doesn't use his at the exact same time, resulting in the two wands "joining" again, Harry's wand should be more than effective.



Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 7:18 am (#73 of 412)

Linda17: "I think Harry will forgive him and through him forgiving Volderment Volderment will die from the postive emotions."

I think that in order for that to happen, Harry's gonna have to do a near-impossible amount of growing up between now and the near-end of Book 7. Harry is so angry and frustrated at everything and everyone that I don't see him having the maturity to forgive Voldemort. If he ever did forgive him, I would say it would be well into adulthood, and long after Voldemort is dead and/or gone.

Anyhow, this would be too similar to the ending of A Wrinkle In Time by Madeline L'Engle (as I mentioned on some other forum somewhere ).



Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 7:31 am (#74 of 412)

I never especially liked that ending. How can you really love somthing in order to destroy it? If you love it, wouldn't you not want to destroy it? It's a paradox.



Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 10:49 am (#75 of 412)

Not necessarily--it's comparable (kind of) to putting a pet to sleep. You love your pet like nothing else and you don't want it to die, but you know it will be better for everyone if you put the pet to sleep so that it doesn't suffer.

Of course, Harry killing Voldemort (or Meg and IT) is not quite in the same category as putting a beloved pet to sleep, so the parallels aren't exactly drawn. But at any rate, I cannot see Harry summoning up real love for Voldemort in order for Voldemort to be destroyed.



Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 12:33 pm (#76 of 412)

Me either.. although I do think 'love' will play a definite part in the ending. It is what saves Harry, time after time. She has to put that into the mix, somehow.

I think book 6 will see a more mature Harry, though. I think one of the aftermaths of losing Sirius will be Harry growing up. It's a price to pay, but one I think JKR needed to have Harry go through.



TGF - Sep 6, 2003 1:57 pm (#77 of 412)

I think that it's a given that Harry will continually evolve as a character... Each book he becomes more mature and loses that much more of the innocence that was so paramount within him.

I like to bring a point up every now and then... That being Harry's use of Crucio. Now, it has been discussed before, but I always wonder at people's thoughts as to which direction JKR will lead Harry as to that. After all, Harry did not even think of the consequences of Crucio... Technically he should be sent to Azkaban for a while Razz

I think it'd be interesting if JKR developed a 'becoming what you're fighting against' element to Harry... You know, building on the whole Riddle-Potter similar-but-different thing that was started in CoS...

Thoughts?



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 2:00 pm (#78 of 412)

Harry will grow up more; who wouldn't in his circumstances? However, I don't see anyone forgiving Volde. He has crossed the line, and did so long ago. He can be pitied perhaps, but I don't think anyone short of divine could have that kind of forgiveness. As for the role of 'love' in the ending, I see it as the force that saves Harry in the final confrontation(s). Volde's downfall will be due to his underestimating/misjudgement/arrogance. I don't think 'love' will destroy him (sorry, just too corney for me). Perhaps the end won't be just a Harry-Volde showdown, but a showdown of their very prinicples. Volde despises love and companionship, and so will be alone in the end. Harry will have friends and companions through respect and love, and perhaps that is what will truly defeat Volde: he doesn't go it alone (although, he still needs to learn this lesson somewhat in Book 6-7).



S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 2:45 pm (#79 of 412)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 3:46 pm

I wrote this in a different program and meant to transfer it to a thread here but I don't know if I did or not. It fits in pretty well with what we're currently discussing though, so....

Here’s a theory my brother and I came up with about how Harry and his ability to love will by Voldemort’s undoing. DD said at the end of GoF that “Lord Voldemort’s gift for spreading discord and emnity is very great.” How much power would Voldemort have over the Wizarding World if they refused, in mass, to be frightened of him? Harry has touched many lives through ability to love and feel human emotion and will probably continue to touch many more. He could be a rallying point for the WW, someone everyone could feel an emotional connection to as the Boy Who Lived. If they were to stand against Voldemort, his DEs and followers would flee and he would be left, in essence, powerless because he would have lost his center of control. Harry will then be able kill Voldemort in a one on one fight.



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 4:05 pm (#80 of 412)

I don't see Harry killing Volde outright. He has been unable to before, and DD seemed to think that he did the right thing, an important thing (regarding Wormtail). He has so much pain and bitterness in his past, that he crosses that line it may lead him down a much darker road.

Another thought, which came to me last night rereading OoP. Harry tries to use the Cruciatis curse on Bellatrix. I wonder, will there be reprocussions? He did attempt an Unforgivable on a human being. That is a life sentance in Azkaban! Unless noone else heard it, I don't think that it can be ignored. And, even if no one else heard it, he still crossed that line. What will this mean to his psyche, this knowledge that he is capable of it? The only thing that might save him from damage here is that he failed, and, as Bellatrix explained, he didn't really want to hurt her. I'd love to hear what you guys think of this, as I don't think I've heard it brought up here yet.



TGF - Sep 6, 2003 4:22 pm (#81 of 412)

Kosh: I made a post up there about that exact thing! :-\



S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 4:37 pm (#82 of 412)

It's not so much that he didn't really want to hurt her as he didn't want to enjoy hurting her... I think this is a big clue that it might affect him mentally and emotionally. He has a lot of things in common with Voldemort, it might be interesting if he sees some of Voldy inside himself and then has to deal with it.....



Denise S. - Sep 6, 2003 5:22 pm (#83 of 412)

If Harry should "get away" with Crucio'ing Bellatrix, could that tempt him to use it on other people if he feels they deserve it?

I don't really think so at the moment, I suppose, but this is a question that should be asked along with all the others.



sean bagheri - Sep 6, 2003 5:38 pm (#84 of 412)

In regards to Crucio I belive he did that because he was very agonized at the thought of Sirius's death. Which leads me to the theory of anger leads towards hate. This woudld explain Lord Voldy in that he had anger that his MUGGLE father left him, which led to the Dark Side. But a thought that has beeen on my mind is that I belive HP will die in the 7th because he will not be able to succesfully use AK because of his morality. Unless anger sets in which will mean there may be an important death, like a close person to Harry in the 7th. If that does not happen I belive most likely HP will die then someone will kill Voldy or he probably loses his power. I do not fathom Voldy living past the 7th book. What do you guys think?



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 6:17 pm (#85 of 412)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 7:18 pm

TGF: Oops! I didn't see it (I think you posted when I was typing a post, and I didn't notice it). My bad!

I don't see Voldy surviving, to be sure. However, I don't see Harry dying. Don't forget that AK is not the only way to kill with a wand! Remember that spell that DD cast in OoP that Harry felt even through the stone statue protecting him? If Volde hadn't blocked it, it would likely have killed him. AK is just a spell that is unblockable, and has no other purpose but to kill. As I have said before, I don't think Harry is going to directly kill Volde. Something will happen (reflected curse, accident, other) that will cause Volde's death in the final showdown. It's not going to be Harry saying AK and executing Voldemort (not unless JKR is going for something extremely dark). Harry is not a killer, nor will he become one. Volde will die as a consequence of the battle, not directly by Harry.



S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 6:34 pm (#86 of 412)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 7:35 pm

Yeah, but there is a difference between someone committing murder in coldblood and a soldier killing someone during a war. This is most definately a war and Harry will most definately be a soldier on the frontlines, sometimes you have to be willing to kill to save your side....



schoff - Sep 6, 2003 6:51 pm (#87 of 412)

Professor Kosh:

Dumbledore didn't cast a killing spell. Voldemort even points this out: "You do not seek to kill me?" Dumbledore admits that killing Voldemort would not satisfy him.

Personally, I think it would have been foolish of Dumbledore to try to kill Voldemort, when DD *knows* the only person who can do that is Harry.



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 7:07 pm (#88 of 412)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 8:08 pm

Schoff: Too true. He does say that right after that spell. Makes me wonder, though. If a spell were that powerful, that Harry could feel it like that, wouldn't it be deadly or at least seriously damaging if unblocked? Could Volde have been referring to the fact that DD didn't use AK? In any case, the point still is that you can kill without AK.

Also, I disagree with the acceptance of the prophecy as conformation that neither can be killed except by the other. It is too vague for such certainty. 'At the hand of the other' could simply mean that it is because of an action of the other. The DE's are under Volde's control, so a DE killing Potter could be construed as at Volde's hand. The reverse is true as well. Harry could simply be the one who places Volde in the situation that leads to his death, without any need for him to personally do it.

And, finally, how do we know that this prophecy is absolutely true? In every detail? Consider who made it. Trelawny isn't known to be all that accurate...



schoff - Sep 6, 2003 7:20 pm (#89 of 412)

quote:

And, finally, how do we know that this prophecy is absolutely true? In every detail? Consider who made it. Trelawny isn't known to be all that accurate. [end quote]

Only her interpretations seem to be inaccurate, not her actual predictions. However, we are talking about one of her two "trance" predictions, which have been shown to be completely accurate (remember the one in PoA?). I also completely believe DD's memory as being word for word. I think the only controversy about the first prediction is how to interpret it.

But back on topic--uh, can't think of anything...um...How 'bout: Do you guys think Harry alone will be the one to destroy Voldemort, or will he have help from others. I'm hoping the final battle is only Harry vs Voldy, but Harry's got a plan, which the DA and OoP helped him set up (whether it works or not).



Earo - Sep 6, 2003 7:37 pm (#90 of 412)

I see Harry teaming up with his friends in some way, at least with Neville to get LV. Harry is able to do things when he loses his temper, could he learn how to control this type of magic? Could he also be able to do things if under other extreme emotions. Like could he make his ability to Love others materialize or something? Not a Patronus but as a Weapon against LV. Maybe this is where his eyes could direct magic?



sean bagheri - Sep 6, 2003 11:09 pm (#91 of 412)

In regards to the theory I belive it is quite accurate because when she goes in her "trance" it usually seems very accurate. But I belive Harry will not and cannot be able to kill Voldemort because he is unable to use the Unforgivable Curses accuarately. So if her prophecies are true I belive that it will end up as Voldermort killing Harry. Then someone who knows who, ends up killing Voldemort. It seems that to use the Unforgivable Curses correctly you must be evil in a way, which Harry does not attain, or at least not of the moment. I smell a plot churning, Harry become evil which allows him to kill Voldemort, but in affect keeping the pattern because he becomes 1 of the Dark Side. What are your ideas?



Sinister Kittens - Sep 7, 2003 12:37 am (#92 of 412)
Edited Sep 7, 2003 1:37 am

Does it mention anywhere about the two parts of the serpent thing that DD sees in OotP? We are told that, perhaps, LV transfered some of his power to HP when the AK curse back-fired (hence the Parsletongue etc.) what if he transfered some of his essence? Maybe if HP kills that part of himself that is most like LV i.e. hatred, anger etc. LV will have far less control and his power over others will diminish? OK, it's just a thought, but do you guys think?



S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 10:18 am (#93 of 412)

No one ever said that Harry had to use AK to kill Voldemort, there are other ways of killing a wizard. There are other killing curses, just not unblockable ones, and there are apparently ways of injuring someone with thought.....



S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 11:34 pm (#94 of 412)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 12:34 am

Okay, I don't see a reconciliation between Draco and Harry (especially as I think Malfoy's about to do something really rotten), but does anyone think we might see an understanding between Harry and Dudley? He did save Dudley's life in OotP, though I can understand why Dudders, who knows nothing about magic, thought Harry had done something to him. Will Dudley ever realize that he would be soul-less if not for Harry? Will Harry forgive the person who made his childhood so horrible?



haymoni - Sep 8, 2003 6:44 am (#95 of 412)

Harry will spend a whole summer (or part of it anyway) with the Dursleys,who will be fearing a visit from the Order if they don't treat Harry well. Will they suddenly start falling all over him? (No.) Will Dudley want to know more about the wizarding world? (Maybe) Will Harry find out what Dudley felt/saw/heard when the dementors attacked him? Maybe the cousins will reconcile.



schoff - Sep 8, 2003 9:11 am (#96 of 412)

Harry and Dudley reconciling is a strong possibility. I have to tell you, when I was little, I absolutely hated my older brother. There was no love there, and I am not exaggerating. We did some pretty nasty stuff to each other. After I left for college and we spent some time apart our attitudes towards each other changed. I kinda like him now, and he's not that bad of a person anymore. We'll probably never be close, but we are involved in each other's life. I really thought I'd end up dropping him altogether as I got older.



Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2003 11:43 am (#97 of 412)

When Harry was having problems in his History of Magic O.W.L. and heard a wasp buzzing, that was when he was having problems concentrating. Even though he knew answers, he just couldn't get them written down.

I'm wondering if the wasp was a Death Eater Voldie sent or even Voldie himself, although most likely not. I do think the wasp and Harry's problems in concentrating on the test were somehow Voldie related, though.

During the summer, Harry is going to have to learn Occlumency somehow unless being at Petunia's can keep the dreams from happening, although if they can happen at Hogwarts, I'm sure they can happen at Petunia's.

I really can't see JKR killing Harry, although it's possible. Since the books are basically good against evil, I would hope she would have Harry triumph and live. Not doing so would almost be sending out the wrong message.

As far as Harry trying the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix, even though it's one of the Unforgivables, the Ministry of Magic might take a different viewpoint when it's used in the midst of battle as opposed to just using it as was done on the Longbottoms, for instance.

I really can't see Harry in Azakaban rooming with Lucius. ; )



Hem Hem - Sep 8, 2003 4:25 pm (#98 of 412)
Edited Sep 8, 2003 5:26 pm

I don't think Harry is very much at risk of his mind being penetrated by Voldy anymore. Harry is so full of the substance that Voldemort despises that the Dork Lard will probably be too scared to legilimize him again. Last time he tried (in the Atrium of the MoM), all Harry had to do in order to shoo him away was think caring thoughts. If Voldemort would ever be reckless enough to invade Harry again, Harry knows the defense. In the end, it doesn't matter that Harry couldn't learn Occlumency. Although learning it is probably still a very good idea.



Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2003 6:09 pm (#99 of 412)

It'll be interesting to see how the Ministry's outlook changes after this last battle. I mean, last time Harry did just a lil ole thing like underage magic, and look how they overreacted. Of course, things were very different back then. Using / trying to use -- is it the same thing? -- an Unforgivable curse has got to be a big deal. It's called "unforgivable" for a reason. I'm thinking Harry will be in some sort of trouble for it. But if the Ministry's outlook has changed as I hope it has, surely the more sensible heads will rule and they will take into consideration that it was in the heat of battle, and his godfather had just been killed, and so on.



Olivia Wood - Sep 8, 2003 6:13 pm (#100 of 412)

Does the Ministry even know that Sirius was killed?



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Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2003 6:19 pm (#101 of 412)

Um...good point. I guess I was just assuming that the half-hour Dumbledore said he's spend with Fudge to "update him on the important points of what happened here tonight" would include that info. But, now that I think about it, I don't know if he'd mention it even then. A lot of the ministry still think Sirius is a murderer.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 6:20 am (#102 of 412)

HemHem: "...all Harry had to do in order to shoo him away was think caring thoughts. If Voldemort would ever be reckless enough to invade Harry again, Harry knows the defense."

BTW, when Harry hurt Voldemort by thinking loving thoughts, Voldy was possessing him, not legilimizing him. So I think he may still need to learn Occulemency. What if Voldy enters Harry's mind without Harry realizing it, such as while he's sleeping and so thinks it's just a dream? He could do some serious emotional damage to our little hero this way, especially if his dreams include Sirius....



Marye Lupin - Sep 9, 2003 11:51 am (#103 of 412)

I don't think Harry is going to get in any trouble from the Ministry about using Crucio (I don't even know if they'll even find out), but I think there will be some psychological repurcussions for Harry. Does Dumbledore know Harry used the curse? If he does (or if he finds out) I can't see him turning Harry in to the Ministry, but I can see him giving Harry a talk on the dangers of using it.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 12:08 pm (#104 of 412)

I suppose nothing could come of his use of the Cruciatus and him using it a second time and crossing the line a bit or doing it in front of his friends and that snapping him back to his moral senses....

Whew, was that sentence a run-on or what?



Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:31 pm (#105 of 412)

Even if there are no legal ramifications of his use, I'll bet anything that DD knows (DD seems to know everything Harry does!). I believe it will come up again, maybe to help snap him out of this anger he's in (I didn't see it end in OoP; Harry still seems to be filled with anger.)



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 1:43 pm (#106 of 412)

I don't know, he seemed pretty mellowed on the train ride home.... I think Sirius's death will go much further in killing out that hormonal anger than a talk with DD about his use of an Unforgivable. Unfortunately, there will be other lasting effects stemming from his grief....



cara - Sep 9, 2003 1:54 pm (#107 of 412)
Edited Sep 9, 2003 2:54 pm

After the battle, the atrium sort of came back to life. The fires roared, people were standing all around, and it seemed as if they had seen what had just happened. This makes me think- why had Harry not been able to see them before? A trick of Voldermort's? Wouldn't they be witnesses that Harry had used the curse? I'm not for sure; I've only read the book twice.



schoff - Sep 9, 2003 1:58 pm (#108 of 412)

The fires roared because that was the moment all the wizards appeared using the Floo Network. DD sent the statues for them at the beginning of the fight. They showed up right at the end of the battle. Harry probably did miss several wizards showing up, since he was still woozy from the possession.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 1:58 pm (#109 of 412)

I think they showed up right at the end, just as Voldy was releasing his possession of Harry. So, no they wouldn't have seen him use the Cruciatus and no Harry wouldn't have seen them because he was possessed and in a great deal of pain....



Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 4:35 pm (#110 of 412)

Harry was calmer on the train, but he is still grieving. However, his reaction to Snape after the talk in DD's office tells me that the anger is still there. He may have gotten over it in relation to his friends and DD, but I think its still there. Grief doesn't kill or relieve anger, it often enhances it.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 4:51 pm (#111 of 412)

Or, it focuses the anger inward....



Madame Librarian - Sep 10, 2003 4:17 pm (#112 of 412)

JKR always uses the summer holidays to give time for whatever terrible events happened at the end the previous book to "marinate" and have full impact at the beginning of the next.

The kind of summer Harry has with the D's (being watched this time by Harry's buddies) may be a factor on how well Harry deals with the death of Sirius and the knowledge of the Prophecy. I predict that somehow, even with the warning given to the D's, they'll manage to make Harry miserable, and therefore, he'll be in pretty bad emotional shape in book 6, chapter 1. This device seems to drive the plot along and make Harry a more gripping character.

Otherwise we get a ho-hum book-opener like this:

Harry, a young boy of sixteen with unruly hair that covered an unusual scar, was looking forward to joining up with his best mate Ron Weasley for the last two weeks before school began. He was glad to be done with the Dursley's, though his problem with them was mostly boredom, not abuse, danger and cruelty, and he really looked forward to some quality time on his beloved Firebolt. Occasional drop-ins from Tonks, Lupin, and few other special friends meant that Harry was no longer clueless about the dramatic events in the Wizarding World. Now as he packed his trunk, Hedwig nibbled lovingly on his shoulder and....

(Yawn. Oh, dear, how awful!)

Ciao. Barb



OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 6:33 pm (#113 of 412)

Okay, here's my take on the subject of Harry using "Crucio." Even if the ministry does know, I don't think they'll go to the extent of prosecuting. I think we'll see an attitude similar to the Aunt Madge incident, or they'll say it was in the heat of battle against a high ranking DE and therefore it's okay. Remember Auror's are authorized to us the Unforgivables in the line of duty. I know Harry isn't an Auror yet, but I can see them taking that line to justify what he did.

Secondly, Voldy is going to know that Harry used it. I can't see Mr. Manipulative just letting that go. I think he'll try to torment Harry with the fact that he's becoming no better than those he's fighting. So I can definetly see the need for continuing Occlumency.

Third, and perhaps the most difficult, Harry is going to have to face his anger and guilt instead of wrap himself up in them. If he doesn't, he's a prime candidate for self-destruction.

I would really like to see a happier hero when we next meet. How that will come about, I have no idea.



Earo - Sep 10, 2003 8:03 pm (#114 of 412)

Personally, I feel that Harry could use some attitude adjusting. I hope that DD can help him control his temper; otherwise Voldy will be able to control Harry time after time.



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 8:19 pm (#115 of 412)

OkieAngel: "Voldy is going to know that Harry used it. I can't see Mr. Manipulative just letting that go. I think he'll try to torment Harry with the fact that he's becoming no better than those he's fighting. So I can definetly see the need for continuing Occlumency."

OkieAngel, that's such a great idea. I absolutely agree. There are already so many similarities between Harry and Voldy that it would be easy for Voldy to torment him with the idea that he's finally turning into Voldemort.....



Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 8:39 pm (#116 of 412)
Edited Sep 10, 2003 9:39 pm

Here here Okie! **Loud clapping** A wonderful point. Volde is certainly not going to let Harry forget that moment of weakness! I think you (and the irrepressible Ms. Jones) hit upon the main reason why JKR had Harry do that.

To address the point about Aurors and Unforgivables: That's was true during the end of VWI. Do we know if its still true, now that Crouch Sr is no longer in charge of it?



Madam Pince - Sep 10, 2003 10:31 pm (#117 of 412)

What a great point Okie! I agree 100%. Voldy will know that will be a very sensitive point with Harry -- Harry hates to be misunderstood, and if he's told "You're just like me!" it should really wake him up. Maybe that'll be the attitude adjustment he needs.



Sarah The Person - Sep 10, 2003 11:10 pm (#118 of 412)
Edited Sep 11, 2003 12:11 am

I think that Harry using an unforgiveable curse could be another way of showing that the world of morals isn't written in black and white. There are shades of gray. (Yes, I know this is over used) If you saw a person kill your father (figure) right in front of you, would you be able to stop yourself from wanting to hurt them? Obviously Harry is a good person, but he made a bad choice. Good people sometimes do bad things, and probably visa versa. JKR certainly liked to emphasize this point throughout the book. Which by the way, makes me wonder if there is any chance Voldie will ever feel any remorse/repentance for what he's done. It seemed to me like Dumbledore certainly felt so, especially when he called Voldemort by his original name; Tom. Anybody else here think there is any possibility for repentance on Voldemort's part?



Professor Kosh - Sep 11, 2003 12:29 am (#119 of 412)

Volde's potential for redemption has been discussed extensively on other threads (see the Lord Voldemort and Tom Riddle threads).

I personally don't think Volde has any potential for repentance or redemption. He is so far over the line, he's in another world. As to why Volde called him Tom, I see it more as a statement from DD that says I know who you are. I do not fear you. You were my student once, and I don't acknowledge your pretensions 'Lord'



Sly Girl - Sep 11, 2003 12:48 am (#120 of 412)

Back to Harry: Does anyone believe Harry to have a hero complex? Or if not- is he developing one? Could certain mistakes have been avoided if he perhaps did not consider himself the only one capable of doing anything?

Please note that I am merely putting forth the questions and not saying I believe one way or the other on these. I think it would be interesting to hear some comments, either way.



Sinister Kittens - Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am (#121 of 412)

Sly Girl - I have been thinking along the same lines. Are you familiar with the theory of Shakespears main characters having a 'fatal flaw'? It is something that crops up in many of his tradgedies and I can see similarities occuring with our young Harry. Self doubt, on behalf of the main character, leads to self questioning and worrying (see Hamlet as perfect example of fatal flaw) - Very, very brief I know but I wanted to stay on topic... go on, shoot me down...



Mindy - Sep 11, 2003 1:46 am (#122 of 412)

Well, I think Harry's 'hero complex' is OK when it comes to Sirius, but then again, during the second task at the Triwizard he DID push it a bit far, didn't he? He took the merpeople's rhyme seriously. I know he IS younger and more gullible...but...well...



haymoni - Sep 11, 2003 4:15 am (#123 of 412)

When Harry was transported back to Dumbledore's office, he thought about Hermione's comments and blamed himself for Sirius's death. I wonder if he will now 2nd guess every move, wondering if he is really needed or just acting the hero.



Lisaren - Sep 11, 2003 8:23 am (#124 of 412)

I do not believe he has a hero complex exactly, but he is unable to discuss things with people. He is also similar to Sirius that he wants to be doing something himself (not because others can't) because he can not stand to be on the sidelines. Understandable, because he has spent so much time without any information from the adults. If he is there, he does not have to rely on others for informaton, he gets it first hand. Still, he will have to live with the fact that his actions in going to save Sirius without contacting Snape or doing further verification that Sirius was captured contributed greatly to the death of his godfather.



mischa fan - Sep 11, 2003 8:36 am (#125 of 412)

I do not think that Harry has a hero complex, I think he has 15 year old male complex. He is confident, overly so, in his abilities and feels he can do what it takes to get the job done, with our even thinking if others can do it, or help him do it. If you put 100 other 15 year old boys in the same position, at least 85 of them would do exactly what Harry did.



schoff - Sep 11, 2003 8:44 am (#126 of 412)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 9:45 am

I think Harry's attitude has more to do with the fact that he *is* the one that gets things done (rather than it being a kid thing, or a hero complex). Harry made some excellent points when he was yelling at RH at 12 Grimmauld. He *is* the one who's escaped Voldy 4 times, protected the stone, saved Ginny, etc. I imagine this would be habit forming, in a way. He's always had to rely on himself to fix things, because no one else has ever done it for him (yes, I know, he's had help, but it's been secondary, not primary). I totally understood Harry thinking he was the only one who could save Sirius, because his own history has shown that he probably is.



Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2003 8:46 am (#127 of 412)

Harry may have a hero complex, but I don't believe it's as simple as that.

During his years with the Dursleys, he's had to handle his own problems and solve them however he could. That's his mindset. He's had to be a self-contained person who tries his best to handle situations he's in, but with no friends growing up, the attitude of the Dursleys, and having no other family members to help guide him, he's pretty much HAD to do everything himself.

Hopefully in the last two books he'll finally realize that he is not alone.



Lisaren - Sep 11, 2003 8:50 am (#128 of 412)

Weeny, that was almost exactly what I was trying to say, just put in much better words.



Kip Carter - Sep 11, 2003 11:17 am (#129 of 412)

While reading through the last ten posts, I keep thinking about one of the main reasons that young men make great warriors...they have no fear of dying.

Maybe this is one of the reasons that Dumbledore nurtures Harry. He sees the innate abilities that Harry possesses and realizes that he is able to teach those who see Harry as a leader/hero to be the extra ingredient need to overcome Voldemort's army.

To me it seems obvious when you look at the way that JKR has Molly protecting the "children" in her actions as the "mother". For an army to be successful, the final victory can not be won without the "mother" realizing that her "children" are going to determine the final outcome.

This is the history of all wars revisited!



Madame Librarian - Sep 11, 2003 12:08 pm (#130 of 412)

Great discussion! Sinister Kittens--the hero complex thing goes much further back than Shakespeare. Classical literature since the ancient Greeks and earlier icluded a concept called "hubris" which loosely translates to heroic arrogance, or that feeling a hero has that he/she can handle everything or that all danger is past. Think Oedipus Rex, where he hears the prophecy (ahem...another prophecy) that he'll kill his dad and marry his mom, so he leaves home and takes up a new life elsewhere only to end up doing what was foretold because he didn't know he was adopted and the home he left was not with his real mom and dad. Anyhow, Harry and others may fall into this kind of hubris trap, too.

And, Lisaren, I totally agree with your assessment of Harry's inability to open up and talk with others. It's one of his greatest flaws though a perfectly understandable one given his horrible childhood. What gets me is that he has repeatedly gotten himself and his friends into deep waters by stubbornly not asking for information, help, whatever. He does this over and over, even after he learns he can trust at least some people.

Gosh, there were times in the last two books, I just wanted to take him and shake some sense into him--"Harry, for goodness sake, just ask what that means. Scar hurting? Harry, dear boy, puh-leeze, tell DD!"

(A side note about this being a teen thing: my son would bemoan his academic problems all through high school, but if I suggested he talk directly to the teacher or his counselor, he'd look at me like I was telling him to consult with Bozo the Clown.)

Ciao. Barb



Madam Pince - Sep 11, 2003 12:25 pm (#131 of 412)

Schoff, I don't know that I agree that Harry's help has been secondary. It is if you mean it in the sense that nobody else was actually casting a spell at the exact same time he did, or something. But I think Harry needs to realize that the help he has been getting has been absolutely instrumental to his success. And the sooner he realizes this, the better. I'm like Barb -- I was getting rather aggravated with him.



S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 12:30 pm (#132 of 412)

Well, I can see it as secondary. The help got him to the final conflict but he got himself through it. For example, in PS, Ron and Hermy's help got him to the room with the stone but he kept Quirrell from taking it, in GoF, Ron and Hermy got him ready for the tasks but he had to face the actual tasks alone. That doesn't mean that the help wasn't essential, just secondary.....



schoff - Sep 11, 2003 12:33 pm (#133 of 412)

Yeah, Barb, that is what I meant. No one's been standing at his side helping him with anything (small exception with Cedric in the Maze). They've given him the tools (or instruments) to help him accomplish his goals, but in the end, it's just Harry and Voldy, or Harry and whatever he's fighting against. I totally agree Harry's had help, even he acknowledged it in OoP.



Sly Girl - Sep 11, 2003 1:01 pm (#134 of 412)

Thanks for all the great thoughts guys. Really interesting.

For those of you frustrated with Harry about not asking enough questions (and I myself have been at times, I admit) we have to go all the way back to book one in order to understand it:

Don't ask questions- that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursley's. S.S. page 20/American Edition

It's when we first become acquainted with Harry and the Dursley's that explains a lot about Harry's older hesitance to talk with and question other people. To a certain extent Harry is still under the impression that he must keep things to himself, because that is how he grew up. With that simple line JKR painted a major aspect of Harry's personality. Harry can and probably will learn to trust himself and others, but I think that's why it's been such a hard struggle for him about certain things and I think that's why he finally started asking part of what he needs to ask in Book 5. I think after the meaning of the prophecy fully sinks in, he will begin to see that he is the only who can do something. Hopefully the years of team-work with Ron and Hermione and most recently the DA will allow him to see that he is not as alone as he thinks.



Madame Librarian - Sep 11, 2003 1:36 pm (#135 of 412)

Sly Girl, I don't have a clue as to your age (and I am not prying), but you are definitely wise. You have written a very cogent statement on Harry's character and a bonus commentary on how keenly JKR understands people, especially children who have had difficult homelives. "Diffucult" is not quite a strong enough word, but you get what I mean. You rightly pointed out her skill at saying a huge amount in the merest of phrases. My compliments.

Ciao. Barb



Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2003 6:43 pm (#136 of 412)

Sly Girl:

Thank you for that quote! That does explain Harry in a nutshell.

I agree with Madame Librarian about your commentary... straight and to the point.



lys potter - Sep 13, 2003 12:32 pm (#137 of 412)

Someone on the Tonks thread suggested that JKR wrote Tonks to introduce us to the concept of the metamorphmagus, and that we might soon discover that one of the existing characters has this ability. Does anyone else think it might be Harry? I remember from SS that he was able to make his hair grow out when Petunia gave him that awful haircut. Are there any other instances of Harry being able to change aspects of his appearance without a wand or a potion?



TGF - Sep 13, 2003 12:49 pm (#138 of 412)

Well, the accepted view on that is that it was 'emotional magic' (a subject which has its own thread, I think).

But as far as him being a metamorphmagus... Ehhh... I don't think so, it seems to weird an ability for him to have. I mean, you'd think he'd have subconsciously removed the scar once or twice... We've been locked almost exclusively on Harry's PoV for 5 books, and this seems WAY too big for us to discover 'just like that'. And besides, magically stimulating hair folicles to grow and completely changing the way you look seem to be two things on entirely different pages.



lys potter - Sep 13, 2003 1:13 pm (#139 of 412)

I know this has been considered "emotional magic", I just thought it was interesting that this particular example of it sounds remarkably like Tonks' metamorphmagus abilities. We know from OotP that Tonks can change specific aspects of her appearance (trying different noses while everything else stays the same), and that she has to screw up her face in real concentration to make it happen. Perhaps Harry hasn't really dreaded having people see his scar as much as he was dreading the humiliation he would suffer because of that haircut. I mean, at this point, if he were a metamorphmagus, his accessing of this ability would still be "emotional magic", as he hasn't been taught how to do it so that it can be controlled. We also don't know if Harry's hair changed immediately from the bad haircut back to normal, or if it grew out over the night. I think he just says that when he woke up the next morning, his hair was back to normal.

I agree that right now it seems like a big power to reveal with only one prior example of it back in book one, but that's why I was asking if anyone had noticed other clues of a possible change in appearance without the use of a wand or a potion.



Caput Draconis - Sep 13, 2003 5:18 pm (#140 of 412)
Edited by Sep 13, 2003 6:19 pm

Hello hello. I'm catching up on threads, so my apologies that this stuff was discussed a while ago.

I too think that love must be a telling factor in the final battle, perhaps more a choice or act based on love rather than a physical manifestation of love as a force or weapon. We've all seen the old scene where a loved one is hanging off a cliff and by saving them, the hero will let the baddie get away. Always works out the baddie trip over a rock or something, and all is well. I'm a huge fan of fate in the series (with wizard debts and the like) and the love has to somehow overcome the anger for good to prevail.

Denise S - I loved that imagery of an older Harry finding it in himself to forgive Voldemort. It'd have to be written pretty well to work as the Book 7 finale (not that I doubt JKR) but it does work well that Harry's journey doesn't end with the death of Voldemort (even if the series does). It's a lifelong torment, and only with the benifit of many years can Harry truely be free of all the suffering he's endured. Depressing, but I like it.

Harry's 'hero complex' seems to me to be to be less 'I can (arrogantly) handle it' but 'I must handle it'. I think he has an overwhelming (and perhaps misplaced) sense of personal responsibility that comes with being the boy who lived, and the mindset that he must shoulder the burden on his own. It's another Greek/Roman epic hero thing. I was certainly aggrevated (talk to SNAPE, you stupid boy!!!), but I can sort of understand.

Bye now. Smile



Donna Bright - Sep 14, 2003 3:08 am (#141 of 412)

Here's my two Knuts worth -

I really don't think Harry will die. The prophesy, though a touch ambiguous, states that one cannot survive as long as the other lives. That's pretty black and white. Harry has to live otherwise the Dark Side will reign.

As to how Voldemort is defeated, well, I am pretty much convinced there is a blood relationship with Harry. JKR said she almost gave it all away in CoS. I think the statement that Riddle makes in the chamber about them even looking alike is very telling. JKR makes a point of saying that Harry looks like James, except for his eyes.

I know, there is that bit in Dumbledore's office about Riddle being the last descendant of Slytherin. But I am sure that JKR will find a way around that bit of info.

I also think that the transfer of powers to Harry has something to do with a familial connection. If not, then certain murders that took place prior to the start of the story would certainly mean that by killing another wizard, you can achieve some of his or her powers.

We don't know all that much about James and his family, yet. I think that there is some connection there. I think that the way Voldemort will die has to do with Harry finding out that connection and using it. After all, in OotP, it was the surge of emotion that drove Voldemort out of Harry after he possessed him. Harry was thinking about all the people he loved. Voldemort has forgotten what loving someone is all about and when he feels that Harry has found something in him that is redeemable, he will somehow destroy himself in the process of trying to destroy Harry.

Now I have no canon with which to support any of these arguments. But aren't these places where we can speculate to our heart's delight? Or have I been staring into the Mirror of Erised?

D



Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 14, 2003 3:09 am (#142 of 412)

hero complex

He was the boy that lived-He did not get a choice in this matter as his mother gave him sacrificial protection.

PS/SS-He was given help by Dumbly in correctly using the mirror. Hagrid inadvertnantly let slip a number of things. I was wondering why Dumbly told Hagrid to get the stone the same day as he collected Hagrid. If he had really wanted to not give any info to Harry he would have told Hagridd to quickly leave harry in a shop and tell him he had an errand. Maybee Dumbly expected Hagrid to behave the way he did an dlet slip things. I therfore think that he was given enough information to work out things (like hermy says) if he so chose to. SO I agree once he had worked things out he felt he had to do something. Choices!

COS-He was the only student in the school that could understand parseltonunge. Why did he not tell Dumbly that he could hear this? I dont think that Dumbly would have thought him mad. In Hagrids hut when he is being removed as Head he gives a speech about "you will find that helpwill always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it" (p195uk). He is described as saying it clearly and Harry thought that he looked over. Its like he felt that Dumbly was asking for help. Hagrids told the "empty" hut to follow the spiders. I think Hagrid expected them to solve the mystery because of there previous adventure, Harry wanted to save his friend. When Ginny got taken into the Chamber he was the only one that could open it. I dont think it would be a hard choice between letting your friends sister die or try and help.

POA-He was taught how to do a Patronus by Lupin because Dementors had such an effect on him. Dumbly told Hermy to use the Time turner once the Truth had emerged. They then worked out what they had to do. They saved Buckbeek and then Harry saved the day by using his Patronus.

GOF-Hary had lessons in which MEM-Crouch Jnr demonstrated unforgivable curses. He ws tested on the Imperius Curse until he could totally resist. He had no choice on whether he wanted to compete in the Triwizard competition. He was previously taught the disarming curse by Snape in 2nd year.

So I am agreeing with Caput that he feels a strong sense of I must do soemthing. I think that some of this burden has been placed on him by the people around him (see above). He chooses to help/do things with all the amalgamated information and he uses the skills he has been taught.

The one book where this breaks down is the last one. Yes he defends himself from the dementor because he can. Nobody tells him anything so he feels isolated and his love of Sirius prevents him could from thinking rationally. Why did hermy not think to speak to Snape either when she is telling him to be cautious? Come to think of it I did not think about it either when I read it. Voldy manipulated Harry because he could. If you saw someone you loved in trouble would you not want to do help no matter what. Voldy would have expected Harry to go to any length no matter the danger and he did. Harrys weakness was the fact that he could be manipulated into doing what Voldy wanted.



schoff - Sep 14, 2003 11:21 am (#143 of 412)

Donna Bright: I know, there is that bit in Dumbledore's office about Riddle being the last descendant of Slytherin. But I am sure that JKR will find a way around that bit of info

Ugh, I can't believe I'm going to open this can of worms, but I really think there's something to it: The original text uses the word ancestor, not descendant. It was changed later, but rumor has JKR made them change it back. Since I have a very late print (I bought my copy just last year--3 years after CoS was originally released) I'm willing to believe this is not a mistake. Perhaps, as Donna Bright suggests, this is a way JKR can have Harry and Voldy share a blood relation. Perhaps it means something else, I don't know, but I really wanted to bring it up--maybe in it's own thread?



Professor Kosh - Sep 15, 2003 7:08 pm (#144 of 412)

Perhaps, but the word ancestor, if it was actually intended, simply doesn't make sense. Unless you have Riddle/Volde going back in time to before Salazar Slytherin's time, how could he be an 'ancestor'. Sorry, it is much more believable to me that this was an error on JKR's part, not intentional, as for it to be intentional means time-travel, etc...

However, if your print really is so late, and it still says ancestor, that is an interesting question. Has JKR ever been asked about this? If so, what was her answer?

Also, is it possible that you actually have an earlier printing, but it just hadn't been sold yet? This is possible if you bought it at certain places (chain super-stores like Wal-Mart, airports, etc..) as they often don't sell out and can keep books around a good deal longer than they last in most bookstores.



Sinister Kittens - Sep 16, 2003 5:52 am (#145 of 412)

schoff - is there a thread on this possibilty? If not then perhaps there should be as the whole concept of time-travel has been bugging me as well. It is certainly a subject that is getting mentioned more anyway...



Fawkes Forever - Sep 16, 2003 7:40 am (#146 of 412)
Edited Sep 16, 2003 8:41 am

regarding Harry.....

Did anyone else notice that when Harry dropped his wand during the dementors attack at the start of OotP.... that he was able to find it by saying 'Lumos'!!

That is, his wand lit up, without the need for Harry to actually touch it.... He also just said the spell.... without realising it!!! Is this a sign of hidden talents??? So then, will he need his wand to defeat 'ol Voldy?



schoff - Sep 16, 2003 8:51 am (#147 of 412)
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 9:54 am

Sinister Kittens: I think we had a thread on this a long time ago, but I think it got deleted years ago. I did a search on "ancestor" and looked up a couple of threads where we got into it on a off-topic basis. There were several. Main ones:

# Key Things From Book 2
# Why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry so much
# Harry is Voldemort
# How many Hard & Fast errors are there

I also found this link to a transcript of JKR's Q&A.
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Question:
Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? Answer:
Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!)

Her use of the word "deliberate" is weird. JKR has been tricky in her interviews, perhaps this is another example of that?

And--I do have a later edition (at least I think). It says "Printed in the USA. First Scholastic Trade paperbook printing, September 2000." Text copyright is listed as 1999 by JK Rowling.




Caitlin McCoy - Sep 16, 2003 11:47 am (#148 of 412)

Fawkes Forever said: regarding Harry.....

Did anyone else notice that when Harry dropped his wand during the dementors attack at the start of OotP.... that he was able to find it by saying 'Lumos'!!

That is, his wand lit up, without the need for Harry to actually touch it.... He also just said the spell.... without realising it!!! Is this a sign of hidden talents??? So then, will he need his wand to defeat 'ol Voldy?

Page 847, Chapter 38, American Version, regarding Hermoine being in the hospital after the events at the MoM: "The curse Dolohov had used on her, though less effective that it would have been had he been able to say the incantation aloud, had nevertheless caused, in Madame Pomfrey's words, 'quite enough damage to be going on with'.

I think that as time goes on, it becomes less and less a must for a wizard to have their wand in hand, or even be able to completely speak an incantation, for it to work in some degree. In Books 1-4, there are plenty of times in which adult wizards/witches use spells without actually saying anything.



Sinister Kittens - Sep 16, 2003 1:29 pm (#149 of 412)

True Caitlin, Shacklebolt (we assume) mutters somethingh in DD's office AND thanks schoff! I will certainly try to read those threads before I start on my own (and probably slightly odd) ideas.



Fawkes Forever - Sep 17, 2003 4:11 am (#150 of 412)
Edited Sep 17, 2003 5:12 am

I think you're right Caitlin..... DD has cast a few spells without the use of his wand in the past...

I was just wondering if it was a sign that you where a powerful / accomplished wizard? Just a thought!



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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 17, 2003 7:06 am (#151 of 412)

I think it is, FF.



Marye Lupin - Sep 17, 2003 12:43 pm (#152 of 412)

About the ancestor/descendant mistake: I have the same edition as schoff (it sais ancestor). The interview schoff found is dated October (a month after the date on the book). You'd think that would be close enough to the interview to count as "subsequent editions". Does anybody have a more recent copy?



S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 7:37 pm (#153 of 412)

I don't know about the ancestor/descendent thing. She said a deliberate mistake (which is like saying something is tragically funny) but that is should be descendent..... Hm, maybe she made the "mistake" and put ancestor in just to see us all come up with all these weird possibilities with time-turners and such, to keep us from guessing the real plot.....



Anna Katarina - Sep 18, 2003 2:02 am (#154 of 412)

I wouldn't be surprised if she did that. She really love us guessing. (Have you changed your avatar S.E?)



siobhan - Sep 18, 2003 10:16 am (#155 of 412)

I think the effectiveness of a spell depends on emotion and intent. Harry in the MoM fight tries to use the crutiatus curse but it was not effective because he was only acting out of rage and a desire for revenge and not just wanting her to suffer for the sake of it. Therefore i think that intent plays a major part in casting such spells.



::StinkerBell:: - Sep 19, 2003 8:25 am (#156 of 412)

I just wanted to add something that caught my eye. hearry seems to slowly be going into depression ~duh~ but there was this line in book 5 that none of my friends catched, but I did. harry had just been in the hospital wing when he went down to see hagrid, he was in hagrids hut. "He was starting to wish he was alone again, and with the idea of hastening his departure he took several large guls of his dandelion juice, half empting his glass."(OoP,ch.38,Pg.854 american version)

Half empting his glass? sounds kind of pesimistic to me. he saw the glass as half empty. I could also be ranting about nothing. I know I would be depressed to. Just a thought that passed though my unusual mind. now that I re-read what I just wrote, its sounds kind of stupid ~Thoughts?



fidelio - Sep 19, 2003 8:51 am (#157 of 412)

Well, LongLiveSnuffles, it could be just a coincidence. But here, we are always suspicious of JKR's coincidences, just on general principles--she's so sneaky cometimes! I think this is the sort of thing English majors are trained to call something special in English-major speak. What it's supposed to do is emphasize the mood of the scene in a subtle way. Ever notice how the weather is nice when the characters are happy, and really rotten when they're miserable--like all the rain in the first term in OotP?



Susurro Notities - Sep 19, 2003 9:19 am (#158 of 412)

LongLiveSnuffles,

Doesn't sound stupid to me. I would think he would be depressed. I hadn't noticed the half empty reference. It does seem to be a metaphor for Harry's state of mind.



Sly Girl - Sep 19, 2003 1:27 pm (#159 of 412)
Edited Sep 19, 2003 2:30 pm

It could also just be a descriptor of how much liquid he took into his mouth- a gulp so large, the glass was now almost to half empty.

Of course, I say this as a former English major who now believes that sometimes a tree is just a tree and not the meaning of life.



S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 2:10 pm (#160 of 412)

Hehe, you know Sly, I'm reminded of a story one of my band directors in highschool told me. He had a friend who was a composer and a teacher. One year this friend decided to take his band to a musical competition. One of the judges there graded them very badly and the guy asked him why. He answered that the guy's band didn't play the score the way the composer had intended, and the guy just laughed and said, "Yeah they did, I wrote it." The mark of true art (both visual and literary) is that the reader/listener/viewer can pull out both the creators meaning and still pull out something that is completely their own. However, sometimes, we just keep pulling when there's nothing there.....

Back to Harry, I know he now knows why he has to stay with the Dursleys during the summer, but does anyone think we may yet see him pull a 'Sirius' and take off again on his own?



Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 19, 2003 2:18 pm (#161 of 412)

It would have to be an almighty row with the Dursleys. I would have thought that his life will improve at the Dursleys because they are now scared that people will come round and check on Harry. I can not see him delibaretly going so that he would potentially put himself into danger. I could see him leaving if his friends got into trouble (like he did with sirius)or he was tricked into leaving.



S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 2:23 pm (#162 of 412)

Hm, what about after he turns 17? Would Vernon then insist on kicking him out since he had turned of age? I mean, it's true that he only seems to need to stay about a month, just after his birthday, but what if Vernon chucked him out before DD could arrange for a guard to escort him to safety?



Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 19, 2003 2:35 pm (#163 of 412)

In britain you are considered and adult at age 18. Harry would have left school. The 7th book will have finished and hopefully Voldy will have been killed/defeated.



S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 2:53 pm (#164 of 412)

Yes, but in the WW you're an adult at age 17 so I didn't know if JK made that true overall or just in the WW. Hm, I don't suppose Harry would just leave... Yeah, I can agree that it would take a big argument with the Dursleys or maybe just the right sort of argument....



Susurro Notities - Sep 19, 2003 3:49 pm (#165 of 412)
Edited by Sep 19, 2003 4:53 pm

It could also just be a descriptor of how much liquid he took into his mouth- a gulp so large, the glass was now almost to half empty.

And a metaphor is only that a metaphor. Not a clue or a message or a plot line. The half empty glass does seem to describe Harry's state of mind whether JKR intended it that way or not.

However, sometimes, we just keep pulling when there's nothing there.....

I bet that's what JKR thinks about much of what is theorized on the fan sites.



Donna Bright - Sep 20, 2003 2:36 am (#166 of 412)

As to Harry's summer with the Dursley's in the 6th book...

I see the Dursley's relationship as strained. Vernon wants Harry gone, but Petunia is adamant that he stays. I think that Harry will have visitors from the order, and Vernon, his usual shade of purple, will be aching to kick Harry out, but because of Petunia and the order, is keeping his mouth shut. Dudley is probably going to be horrible to Harry, because he will see Harry as the reason his parent's relationship is strained.

Harry will be quite depressed. I think he will spend a lot of time in his room, brooding (Ooooh! Does any one think of Heathcliffe here?). Harry has finally realized that Petunia is Lily's sister. I think we will see a scene where Harry speaks to Petunia to find out about his mother. Perhaps this is where we will find out more about why Petunia is so jealous of Lily.

Of course, I am probably wrong. But it is fun to speculate.

D



Neville Longbottom - Sep 20, 2003 3:38 am (#167 of 412)

I am not sure of this. Petunia's usual reaction is "don't ask questions". I don't think, she would tell Harry anything, especially not, if the memories are painful for her. On the other hand, I can see Dudley being a bit nicer to him. That means, if he finally realises, that Harry saved his life and soul.



haymoni - Sep 22, 2003 7:00 am (#168 of 412)

Now that Dudley has seen some of the WW first hand, he may be more curious. I doubt, however, that he will be nice.



Neville Longbottom - Sep 22, 2003 9:26 am (#169 of 412)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 10:29 am

I don't know if Dudley will be more curious. Yes, he has seen more of the wizarding world. A half giant who made him a pigtail, twins, who made his tongue grow and Dementors, which wanted to suck out his soul. I can fully understand, why he is afraid and doesn't want to have anything to do with the wizarding world. But Harry did save his life, what may be a changing point in the relationship between the two. Their bickering at the beginning of OOTP did already remind me of an argument between brothers and was somehow much 'nicer' than the hostility between them in the earlier books.



Madam Pince - Sep 22, 2003 2:57 pm (#170 of 412)

Given what we know of Dudley so far, I'd say it's more likely that he'll resent Harry for helping him, rather than being grateful. Bullies usually hate to be shown up.

By the way, SE Jones, where did you find that 17 is the adult age in the WW? (I believe you, I just wondered...)



Denise P. - Sep 22, 2003 3:00 pm (#171 of 412)

Mrs Weasley makes some remark to the twins about being of age now that they are 17 in OoP.



S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 3:45 pm (#172 of 412)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 4:46 pm

Yeah, there are several remarks by Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, as well as the twins. That's why they could use magic outside of school during the summer. They turned 17 in April of their 6th year (GoF) so they were 17 the summer of OotP....



haymoni - Sep 23, 2003 6:13 am (#173 of 412)

Harry may make the first move - trying to find out what Dudley saw/felt when the Dementors came - trying to find out more from Aunt Petunia about what she knows - he may interrogate Mrs. Figg as well.

He now knows why he has to make his annual appearance at Privet Drive. He may try to make the most of it before he is swept into another summer adventure.



Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 6:19 am (#174 of 412)

Does this mean that Harry will really start to ask more questions? I hope he is now mature enough to know that keeping things bottled up doesn't ususally help the situation. He may incur the wrath of Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia, but he may persist anyways and get hints and partial answers that move the plot along. He also may pester each and every member of the Order to piece together a "history" of his parent's time at the end of VWI. Hope so.

Ciao. Barb



Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 6:31 am (#175 of 412)

Madame Librarian,

I think you are right. I think he may start asking Petunia for information which of course will irritate her but in light of the scene at the end of OoP she might actually give him answers.



Donna Bright - Sep 25, 2003 1:54 am (#176 of 412)

I think at some point in the next two books, Harry and Petunia will come to an understanding. I'm not saying it will develop into any kind of familial love, but it seems to me Vernon and Dudley are the ones who want to see Harry out of their house. Petunia is the one who insists Harry remain. She does know quite a bit about the WW. I think that we might see a scene where Harry goes to Petunia to talk about his mother. I see it happening while Vernon is at work and Dudley is out with his gang.

I think that Harry has to stay in the house, seeing as how Dementors showed up in the alley by Magnolia Crescent. So, between being cooped up in a house where he is not welcome, combined with his grief and anger, we might see him take the opportunity to ask questions, even though he isn't supposed to. We already know that many of the restrictions put upon Harry as a child, he has dismissed.

Petunia may resist, but in the end, without Vernon there to stop her, she may just say a few things about Lily.

We shall see though, D



Fawkes8U - Sep 25, 2003 6:20 am (#177 of 412)

I don't think that Harry will have to worry about the Dursleys with regard to treatment. Don't forget that they were warned about mistreating Harry at the end of the book by Lupin and gang. I think that Petunia knows what that means, and that Vernon and Dudley are going to back down a bit with regards to Harry. The dementor attack on Dudley scared them all awfully. They are now terrified of the magical world and don't want to provoke anymore response from it. Recall Vernon's responses to Harry at the mere menition of Sirius Black. The Dursleys will probably just leave Harry alone, maybe even ignore him. They might attempt normalcy in their home, but without provoking Harry and friends. How Harry would handle this change would be interesting. Would he enjoy the freedom and power? Does he feel a bit protective of the Dursley's now knowing that Petunia took him in regardless of her feelings toward the magical world? Does Harry realize that if Petunia and Dudley are killed by Voldemort or his followers, he looses his protection?



Fawkes Forever - Sep 25, 2003 6:29 am (#178 of 412)

I'd like to see Petunia telling him something about his mum & how she knows more than she lets on...

But I agree with BritMom, I think the Dursleys will pretty much ignore Harry for most of the summer.... act as though nothing happened... leaving him to sit & brood about all the bad stuff thats happened (more angst )



Madame Librarian - Sep 25, 2003 6:45 am (#179 of 412)

I said a bit earlier on this thread or the Petunia one that Harry's "improved" treatment by the D's might lead to boredom. If he's even more confined to the house, especially since he was attacked just outside it in the alley, I can see him doing something rash (a day on the town, perhaps, or some such thing) just to break the cold, isolating monotony. I do think he'll figure out some way to "get" to Petunia to gain information. I certainly hope he's more assertive in asking questions now that he knows the D's can't really harm him, even that it's their own interest to keep him relatively content and safe.

I can envision all kinds of interesting scenes at Chez Dursley.

Ciao. Barb



Fawkes Forever - Sep 25, 2003 7:13 am (#180 of 412)

Oh can't wait..... roll on book 6



Dr Filibuster - Sep 25, 2003 10:32 am (#181 of 412)

Maybe Harry could go from Little Whinging to Great Whinging? (sorry, couldn't resist). Personally I hope he stops whinging, but hey he's a teenager and he's got more reason than most to grumble.



haymoni - Sep 25, 2003 12:17 pm (#182 of 412)

If Harry could break into Snape's memories, maybe he'll try to get at Petunia's.



Madame Librarian - Sep 25, 2003 12:33 pm (#183 of 412)

OK, fellow Forum Folk, I need a teeny bit of help. Being a Yank, but a big fan of British lit, humor, culture, etc., I was pretty sure that "whinging" is a term for what I'd call whining, or better yet "kvetching." Thinking that, I really chuckled every time the scene shifted to Privet Rd. Am I right or am I deluding myself and suffering from false memory syndrome? (Sorry, a little bit off topic, but it does relate to "home sweet home"--hah!--for our hero.)

Many thanks.

Ciao. Barb



timrew - Sep 25, 2003 12:38 pm (#184 of 412)
Edited Sep 25, 2003 1:47 pm

You are right, Madame Librarian. Whinging is indeed whining. An affectionate term that Australians have for UK immigrants in Oz is, "Whinging Poms" - meaning they are always finding something to complain about!

Courtesy of the Edit function, I'll reply to you before you ask me (saves on the number of posts!). Yes, it's pronounced win-jing.



Madame Librarian - Sep 25, 2003 12:44 pm (#185 of 412)

And, it's pronounced win-jing, isn't it? Or, wine-jing? Or, what? In other words, how would John Cleese say it? Or, Peter Sellers (who remembers Peter Sellers? I do, I do.)? Again, eternal gratitude.

Ciao. Barb

p.s.--Tim, why did I just know you'd be the first with an answer? You're always there to step up to the plate when there's a crucial piece of information to be settled.



Dr Filibuster - Sep 25, 2003 1:34 pm (#186 of 412)
Edited Sep 25, 2003 2:38 pm

Sorry, thought you knew about whinging (well you did Madam Librarian). Also places starting with "little" often have somewhere with "Great" , "greater" or even "superior" nearby. Superior Whinging, now there's a town I may have worked in once!

Haymoni, I like you're thinking re Harry testing his Legimens skills on Petunia. Would it be classed as under-age magic though? She'd freak out if he started staring at her.

I'd like Harry to go and have a cuppa at Mrs Figg's for once, and perhaps offer to carry her shopping.



S.E. Jones - Sep 25, 2003 4:04 pm (#187 of 412)

Well Snape had to do an actual spell to fully break into Harry's memories during the Occulemency lessons so I think it'd be classified as underage magic...



Hem Hem - Sep 25, 2003 7:02 pm (#188 of 412)

Someone said a few posts back that they thought Harry would spend a lot of time cooped up in the house this coming summer. Now, it's not a big point or anything, but I think that harry will be just as inclined as last year to wander. This coming year, he will be heavily guarded by Order members, and I highly doubt Dung will be getting the job again. I think a trip into town would be really interesting for Harry and for the reader-- especially if the Dursley's punish him afterwards. Then again, I expect Harry will be in contact with Order members all summer long, so he won't have the same sort of angst he had last year...a different sort of angst, perhaps, what with the sorrow of Sirius' death to mull over. All in all, this summer could shape up to be much more lively than last summer.



OkieAngel - Sep 25, 2003 8:16 pm (#189 of 412)

Wow, I have missed so much, but I'm fairly caught up now, so I just have to add my two knuts worth Smile

In regards to Harry's "Hero" complex...well, he IS the hero, but I think he learned a valuable lesson at the end of OoP when his rash action lead directly to a loved ones demise. I'm with most of ya'll in the fact that I was alternately aggravated and amused at his stubborn refusal to ask DD or Snape ( who can blame him there, really) for help. Will year six show him to be more diligent in his adventures? Perhaps. My fear is that he will wall himself off in order to protect those he cherishes, especially now that he knows it truly rests on his shoulders to vanquish Voldy. Also, I can't help but come back to the fact that he's a Gryffindor ( in more ways than one, in my opinion, but that's another thread!) and Gryff's are famous, or notorious, for their bravery. I know many people say there are many similarities to Voldemort that could tie him into Slyth, but I visualise Godric having the same feelings, beliefs and ideals as Harry does. Right is right and anything else is wrong...if you see an injustice, you should fight to make it right...ect, ect. I think this is why Sirius made the point to Harry that you can't just separate people into DE's and non-DE's, there are shades of gray in between. Personally, I hope Harry doesn't lose his "Hero" complex, I just hope he grows into it.



Mrs. Sirius - Sep 26, 2003 7:27 pm (#190 of 412)

Lately, I have been going out on a limb with my predictions, so I'll try to stay close to the point here.

I don't believe the Dursley will be too mean to Harry this summer break because they have been warned by his fan club. Their fear of Harry's power also grows. In an interview with Richard Griffith, the actor who plays Vernon Dursley, says that for PoA, the Dursleys know that Harry is becoming more powerful. They are much more fearful of him (Remember the in the playground in OoP when Harry sees Dudley and his gang and he hopes that they look in his direction? Harry wonders what Dudley would do, taunt him with his friend or leave him alone and look bad in front of his gang). Harry too is beginning to realize his growing power.

If the Dursley's can't spend time being mean to Harry and he is forced to stay in the house, there may well be some exchange of information.

What I do hope we get to see is Harry going to Godric Hallow to see his parents home. I had hoped to see that in OoP.



Sly Girl - Sep 26, 2003 8:48 pm (#191 of 412)

Wasn't the house in Godric's Hollow blown to smithereens after the AK backfired in the Voldemort attack? I doubt there'd be much to see. I was always under the impression the house was in shambles.



Becky Palmer - Sep 27, 2003 2:08 am (#192 of 412)

I just have one question. Now that Harry has saved Dudley's life, wouldn't Dinky Diddydums have a life debt to Harry? Or would that only work if a wizard saves another wizard?



Griffin - Sep 27, 2003 4:37 am (#193 of 412)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 5:42 am

Philosophers/Sorcerer’s(USA) Stone, page 16 (UK) Near the Bottom

DD: “No problems, were there”

Hagrid: “No, Sir – house was almost destroyed but I got him out before the Muggles started swarmin’ around. .....”

The house is still (or at least it was fourteen years ago) standing but most probably uninhabitable.

The house was damaged enough to remove the Fidelius Charm, assuming that Muggles are effected by it in the same way as Wizards. This may be an unsound assumption since the charm may have been lifted due to the deaths of James and Lilly.

(14 years, assuming Harry’s age is 15)



Caput Draconis - Sep 27, 2003 4:41 am (#194 of 412)

I think maybe a wizard's debt (what little we know about it) can only work between two wizards. I was of the impression that there was some super magical bond beyond that of one of us muggles helping out another. For us (muggles) it's more of a moral thing, but with the wizards there's that whole element of Fate and whatnot. Wizard to muggle (or Dudley), I'm not sure.

I've always been a fan of theories regarding Petunia's part in the series. Harry will surely press her for further information regarding the extent of her connection to Dumbledore and the wizarding world, as well as his mum. I'd hope this would bring them closer together, but could it have the opposite effect of furthering Harry's dislike of his aunt. We know a large part of his angst (and whinging, hehe) comes from being kept out of the loop about things. Depending on how much Petunia knows, his anger may only be inflamed in knowing she has kept stuff from him for so long. I'm up for some bonding, though. Smile



Griffin - Sep 27, 2003 4:55 am (#195 of 412)
Edited Sep 27, 2003 5:57 am

Harry is going to learn more about his parents. Whether this happens in the next book or the seventh, I could not say. I am astounded that Harry has not sort out this information before, however it is most probably because JKR didn’t want to give too much away, too soon.

I would like Harry to find this information out by using Dumbledore’s pensive, by using either Albus’s memories or Lupin’s. It would be a very wizardly way of experience his parents true nature (apart from Snape).



Donna Bright - Sep 27, 2003 5:03 am (#196 of 412)

Caput Draconus, I agree that Harry is going to press Petunia for more info about his mom. She may not be that forthcoming, but I think we will see Harry glean a little more info regarding his maternal family.

When you look at the stories, it is always Vernon and Dudley who are the meanest to Harry. Sure, Petunia is not exactly nice to him. But when she punishes him, she makes him do chores, not physical or mental abuse.

I know I am probably wrong, JKR has her own agenda, but this is what I think about Petunia. Yes, she is remarkably jealous of Lily (by the way, who is older?) I get the impression that Lily got the brains and beauty in the family. So, already, before she found out she was a witch, there was sibling rivalry. But I don't think it was as extreme as it is now.

Once Lily's abilities were discovered, Petunia's resentment began to grow. But (and this is a big one) I don't think it was so great as to cause the rift between them as yet. I am sure that James was introduced to the family after Lily and he became an item. So again, Lily got the great guy, after all James' charisma was pretty overwhelming. Again, the resentment grows.

Lily and James are married. Was Petunia in the wedding party? I cannot see Lily excluding her sister. We have no canon to show that Lily was as resentful of Petunia as Petunia was of Lily. I can see Petunia in the wedding party. Perhaps not Maid of Honor, but being Lily's sister, surely she was included. Perhaps, Petunia is Harry's godmother? (Whoa, even as I write that I find it a little bit of a stretch.)

I think it is after Petunia and Vernon get together that Petunia's resentment and jealousy come to a head. Vernon is the ultimate Muggle. Now Petunia has a comrade in her resentment. She lets it flow from Vernon.

Yes, Petunia finds Lily strange and unnatural, but she never says she hated her sister. She was the one who let Harry stay. Vernon would have sent him off to an orphanage. (I infer this from Aunt Marge. Seems to me she shares Vernon's opinions.)

Petunia still has a very important role to play. She will be the one who keeps Harry safe during the summers despite Vernon. I think there will definately be conflict in the Dursley family.

It will be fun to find out if some of what I think is true. But I won't be disappointed if I'm wrong. I fully expect to be.

Let hear what you all think.

D



Caput Draconis - Sep 27, 2003 5:39 am (#197 of 412)

Donna!

I agree with a bunch of what you just said, particularly regarding the subtle differences in the way Petunia treats Harry, as opposed to the other Dursleys.

This no doubt belongs in the 'Good Old Aunt Petunia' thread - check it out, my dear. It's down there in 'Wizards, Witches, Muggles, Squibs and Ghosts', and it's filled with Petunia goodness. Smile



S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2003 12:02 am (#198 of 412)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 1:02 am

Hm, do you think Dudley knows anything about his mum's past, i.e. her maiden name or what happened to his grandparents? If so, could Harry get some information out of him?



Susurro Notities - Sep 28, 2003 6:35 am (#199 of 412)
Edited by Sep 28, 2003 7:38 am

I am sure if there was anything in Dudley's mother's or his grandparent's past that could connect them to wizardry his parent's have sanitzed it. Remember Harry's parents died in a car crash. Maybe Harry could get the official version from Dudley and put it together with what little he knows and confront Petunia about it, but Harry probably doesn't know enough real information to do that. I am also skeptical about how much family history Dudley would retain even if he had been told or had over heard something.

There are alot of photographs in the Dursley house of Dudley and none of Harry. Are photographs of any other family members mentioned? I don't remember any mentioned. Weird family.



Casandra - Sep 28, 2003 8:37 am (#200 of 412)
Edited Sep 28, 2003 9:41 am

"he's in another world(Voldemort)"-Professor Kosh-

I don't think so, I think Voldemort lives in the same world that live the rest, and that exactly what JKR (I think) wants that we realize, he's human, a person who make many bad decisions since he was young.

"I would really like to see a happier hero when we next meet. How that will come about, I have no idea."-OkieAngel- Maybe Mark Evans have something to do with that, a "little brother" to Harry would make him happy.



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::StinkerBell:: - Sep 28, 2003 11:08 am (#201 of 412)

On the thread of info from Dudley.... I highly doubt that Petunia would tell Dudley any thing about his grandparents because they favored lily.



Pippa - Sep 28, 2003 3:45 pm (#202 of 412)

Harry is Hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



timrew - Sep 28, 2003 4:03 pm (#203 of 412)

Pippa. That kind of message is not welcome here. It adds nothing to the discussion; but at least thank you for using proper punctuation.

If you have anything valid to say, your input will be welcome. But this is not the place to discuss whether any character is "hot" or not.



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 29, 2003 3:48 pm (#204 of 412)
Edited Sep 29, 2003 4:48 pm

Oi. The Pippa comment again.

OK, back to topic...Petunia isn't quite as bad as Vernon/Dudley, but she has no truck with underfeeding Harry (I seem to recall a part right before Harry met Dobby where, after a day of doing chores - including painting a bench, and painting is a terrible chore, I should know - Petunia thought that an appropriate lunch was something along the lines of carrots and bread). I think that Petunia knows a great deal more than we previously really thought about, but I doubt she'll be very forthcoming with information to Harry. She hadn't talked to Lily in years, so we're told in Book 1, so why should she tell her weirdo brat anything? Honestly, I think she's scared of Dumbledore...and that's why the Howler had the effect it did.

~Caitlin



Griffon Kato - Sep 30, 2003 1:57 am (#205 of 412)

I think it will be a good thing that Harry is die perhaps with his die,he is sacrificing himself so all his friend will rest in peace i mean alive. And i think that Harry SHOULD NOT have a child coz maybe if he had a child his child will have the same tragedy as he had. And i thought if Harry died perhaps Voldemort will die too.(just my imagination) it can hapens because of those two (Harry and TOm r) will have a greater connection for each other.Sirius death will going to make him more stronger to kill voldemort.I hope......



Sinister Kittens - Sep 30, 2003 2:11 am (#206 of 412)

Hi Renita. Before one of the moderators spots you, you might want to have a quick look at the Philosophy of the Forum. Correct spelling and grammar really help us older folks read your posts. :-)



Fawkes Forever - Sep 30, 2003 2:22 am (#207 of 412)
Edited Sep 30, 2003 3:24 am

Hey SK, great minds think alike, you beat me to the post.... a friendly nod in the right direction before one of the 'prefects' I mean moderators steps in (kidding guys... please don't kipendo or use thumper on me )

Renita, if you're new.... welcome to the forum... please pop by the Tell About Yourself thread & do exactly that



Veela3173 - Sep 30, 2003 4:33 am (#208 of 412)

Hello, i am Veela3173 i was just log in here,i hope we can talk about something but first,greeting to all of you,Sinister kittens,Fawkes Forever and all, i hope we can be good friends.



Fawkes Forever - Sep 30, 2003 6:05 am (#209 of 412)

#VALUE!



andy kirkland - Sep 30, 2003 9:56 am (#210 of 412)

This thread jumps from topic to topic so quickly it's very easy to get lost. I just want to make my point and get out of the way. Harry had been learning Occlumency from Professor Snape. Could this have somehow opened his minds eye to Legilimency? We read in OP during the History of Magic O.W.L. that Harry wished he could read Patils mind to get the answers. Could he have unknowingly read her mind for the answer? If he had learned Leilimency who could have read Herminones mind as they walked to the forest when captured trying to contact Sirius. Just my ideas.



mollis - Sep 30, 2003 10:07 am (#211 of 412)

Actually Andy, that has been my thought as well. It seemed, when Harry was trying to come up with the answers that it was almost as if he was reading through papers looking for the answer (I've got that one, I've got that one, wait, don't have that yet...) The wasp or bee was suspicious, but it was when Harry was focused on the back of her head that he seemed to be able to pull the answers out that he was looking for. We may learn that we were correct if he is questioned for "cheating" because his answers were to close to hers!



Denise P. - Sep 30, 2003 1:42 pm (#212 of 412)

Hi Griffon Kato! Welcome to the Forum! Mosey over to the Tell About Yourself Thread and let us know who you are and where you are from

I agree with you, the death of Sirius may make Harry stronger and perhaps be strong enough to kill Voldemort.

Since we know that either Harry or Voldemort has to die in order for the other to live, if Harry were to survive, I think he could have children safely.

Guys, while we do stress proper spelling and grammar, please keep in mind that we have many people who are not native English speakers. I would be willing to bet that Griffon is not a native English speaker and the mere fact that they are able to post and follow in English is very impressive to me.



LilyP - Sep 30, 2003 5:57 pm (#213 of 412)

I also caught the legilimency hint during the History exam, or at least I took it as a legilimency. I think (purely speculation) that leglimency has something to do with the end of the whole Harry/Voldie mess.



feathy123 - Sep 30, 2003 10:51 pm (#214 of 412)

It just came to me. What if harry is phsycotic and that is why he keeps seeing things and hearing things. With the up bringing he had it is quite possible that he could fall into the trap of a mental illness. Though maybe it's just a harry thing though it doesn't happen to anyone else does it. P.S I don't he's scar hurting I think that that really is magical.



feathy123 - Sep 30, 2003 11:52 pm (#215 of 412)

Soz but i just thought of something else. If Harry had/s the marauders map wouldn't he be able to get to all the common rooms which means that the marauders probably would have been from all four houses. or were very close with people from each house.



siobhan - Oct 1, 2003 9:23 am (#216 of 412)

Not necessarily maybe they used James cloak to follow some Ravenclaws to their common rooms. As for your Psychotic theory it reminds me too much of Barry Trotter (which i didn't find all that funny). JKR would never do that to poor Harry, well i sincerely hope not any way!!

To address the Legimens theory i was seriously intrigued by that whole description which leads me to believe it's important. It was worded so carefully i think JkR is just hinting at Harry's abilities such as in the first book with the snake and then the Parseltongue episode in the 2nd book. I love JKR's little hints!! Keeps me going between books



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 2, 2003 7:44 am (#217 of 412)
Edited Oct 2, 2003 8:50 am

NoVeil4Me - it's nice to know that someone notices that we don't all speak (or write) very good english. Thanks for noticing ...

Feathy and Siobhan - You might want to check out the Houses of the Marauders thread with your ideas ...



GryffindorPhoenix - Oct 2, 2003 2:13 pm (#218 of 412)

Fawkes and Harry

I was thinking after watching the film Dragonheart, maybe Harry has some of Fawkes' power or something like that. In Dragonheart, King Einon has been given some of a dragon's immortality as he was wounded in battle. Only Einon could be killed if the dragon is slain. So maybe as long as Fawkes stays alive, Harry will be safe. This also gives the reason for the connection between Harry and Godric Gryffindor as Fawkes is Gryffindor's colours, red and gold.



Liz Mann - Oct 2, 2003 2:13 pm (#219 of 412)
Edited Oct 2, 2003 3:13 pm

And he could have been Gryffindor's bird, too. Good theory, GryffindorPhoenix!



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 2, 2003 8:46 pm (#220 of 412)

My first thought of Fawkes was that fawks belonged to Godrick Gryffindor. I'm glad to see more people had the same Idea. I have a question...Where do you guys find that James and lily lived in Godrick hollow? I never read about that..... Sara



Sly Girl - Oct 2, 2003 9:12 pm (#221 of 412)
Edited Oct 2, 2003 10:13 pm

Book One, Chapter One: "What they're saying is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter are -- are -- that they're --- dead." (page 12 in the American editions) -- Minerva McGonagall



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 2, 2003 9:17 pm (#222 of 412)

Thanks~ I never caught that....



eggplant - Oct 4, 2003 1:07 pm (#223 of 412)

Is Harry Powerful?

I can think of seven times Harry demonstrated far greater magical ability than average, there are probably more.

1) Harry is the only one to receive the AK curse and live. Well OK Voldemort did too but Harry just got a minor cut on his forehead while Voldemort nearly died with far more serious injuries.

2) At age eleven with no instruction Harry could fly better than anyone his age and better than most wizards of any age.

3) In all or recorded history only 3 wizards have been able to speak Parseltong. Harry is one of them.

4) Harry could produce a Patronis at a extraordinary young age but more important it was so powerful it awed even Hermione, because the only other wizard she knew who could repel a hundred Dementors was Dumbledore.

5) Harry could easily overcome the Imperious Curse, something even formidable wizards like the real Moody and Crouch junior and senior found extremely difficult to do. For example, Crouch junior struggled against it for over a decade and even then was only partially successful, Harry could triumph over it in just a few minutes.

6) I can’t think of a better demonstration of pure raw power than the scene in GoF where Harry engages man to man in magical arm wrestling with the most powerful dark wizard in a thousand years and wins. Harry forced those beads of light into Voldemort’s wand not the other way as the dark lord wanted.

7) Voldemort was able to possess Ginny and even a defense against the dark arts teacher for months but when he tried to do the same thing to Harry he had to retreat in defeat after just a few seconds.

Eggplant



Jim the Potty - Oct 4, 2003 1:07 pm (#224 of 412)

eggplant, check out the "Harry Potter" thread: Sly Girl "Harry Potter" 10/2/03 10:17pm

I'm sure your thoughts and opinions would be welcomed there.



eggplant - Oct 4, 2003 10:59 pm (#225 of 412)

Everybody likes Harry Potter but if you could trade places with him would you do it? If you’d only read the first book the question would be a no brainer, being a wizard sounded like fun and although you might get into danger from time to time you’ll probably manage to squeak through somehow. In later books it’s still great fun to read about Harry Potter but it would be less fun to be Harry Potter. The last book is 870 pages long and except for about a page and a half he’s miserable on all of them, at one point he’s in such agony he wants Dumbledore to kill him. So would you trade in your humdrum Muggle life for his if you could?

Eggplant



Madame Librarian - Oct 5, 2003 4:41 am (#226 of 412)

Wow. Deep question, eggplant, but I'm not sure it belongs on this thread. I think it merits a thread on its own. On this one we talk about the fictional character; your question will dramatically shift discussion to a personal choice (aah, choice!) issue. Are we sure we want to mix 'em up. It's a good topic, though. Moderators?

Ciao. Barb



Fred Campball - Oct 5, 2003 4:29 am (#227 of 412)

Has anyone noticed that Harry senses and feels people watching him

After reading OoP and thinking about the whole Harry's powers thing, I was listening to GoF and noticed that Harry feels people watching him: in the forest at the world cup and in the Maze. Anyone have any thoughts on this



Lumos* - Oct 4, 2003 9:30 pm (#228 of 412)
Edited Oct 4, 2003 10:30 pm

Hi Fred

Maybe this should be in the Harry Potter thread? I'm not sure...

In answer to your question, it's very valid, but I don't think its really mysterious. I sometimes 'feel' people watching me, you know what I mean?!

<|Surprised)



Vicky Leery - Oct 5, 2003 4:29 am (#229 of 412)

This is a very common phenomenon, and I think a very popular one in literature. For more information, there's a very good book called "The Sense of Being Stared At," which is all about stuff like that.



Denise P. - Oct 5, 2003 10:06 am (#230 of 412)
Edited Oct 5, 2003 11:10 am

Barb, since the question is directly asking about Harry, there is no reason for it to have its own thread. We don't nee to have a billion threads that all deal with Harry when we have a specific Harry thread already in place and being used.



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 5, 2003 10:18 am (#231 of 412)

I have a question about Harry and Voldemort...... Can someone else kill Harry other than Voldemort? And Vise Versa? Because If Harry is the only one that can kill Voldemort, Harry should try and kill him as soon as possible before Voldemort starts to take over things.



Hem Hem - Oct 5, 2003 10:28 am (#232 of 412)

Sorry to backtrack just a bit...Would I trade lives with Harry Potter? Never in a million years. His life features so much hatred, injustice, and suffering. I don't think Harry feels lucky to live under such special circumstances.



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 5, 2003 10:32 am (#233 of 412)

I'm not intirely sure if I would....... though... I really would love to be in the wizard world.......



Sly Girl - Oct 5, 2003 10:42 am (#234 of 412)

I'll answer the switch Harry question at the end of the series. to see if he makes out alive.



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 5, 2003 10:47 am (#235 of 412)

I like your anwser Sly Girl......



W J - Oct 5, 2003 11:02 am (#236 of 412)

Eggplant said: "The last book is 870 pages long and except for about a page and a half he’s miserable on all of them, at one point he’s in such agony he wants Dumbledore to kill him."

Wasn't Voldemort controlling Harry's thoughts at the moment that Harry wished Dumbledore would kill him at the end of the big fight in the MoM? I don't think it is fair to say that Harry wished Dumbledore would kill him, but more accurately, I think that, as Dumbledore himself says, Voldmemort was trying to trick Dumbledore into killing Harry by putting thoughts into Harry's head.



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 5, 2003 11:56 am (#237 of 412)

but Harry was thinking at the time that DD should because it was too painful when Voldemort was possesing him and then thought of Sirius and his heart filled with emotion....



Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 4:53 pm (#238 of 412)

Longlivesnuffles, as far as I know, nobody can kill either of them besides themselves. I agree with slygirls answer.



Susurro Notities - Oct 5, 2003 5:32 pm (#239 of 412)
Edited by Oct 5, 2003 6:35 pm

Switch with Harry - Never. Hem Hem is right, he has had a very sad and difficult life and it appears that there will be much more sadness and difficulty before Harry's life settles down. I too would love to experience the WW. Right now the WW is so scary to wish to be there is a bit like wishing to experience Germany during WWII.

Besides "I enjoy being a girl!"



Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 4:44 am (#240 of 412)

Maybe you'd be Hermione. But would you be Harriet?



Susurro Notities - Oct 6, 2003 9:14 am (#241 of 412)

Harriet! How very American 1950's. Bouffant hair, spike pumps, little hat, full skirt - oh dear the skirt would make my robes stick out horribly!



Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 9:29 pm (#242 of 412)

Laughing out Loud. Sorry I did that but I didn't want to netspeak. Yes, thats Australian 1850's. Sorry this is very sidetracked.



Madame Librarian - Oct 7, 2003 7:01 am (#243 of 412)

Part of the special magic that Lily imparted to Harry with her sacrifice may also be a factor in Harry being so resilient in the face of the emotional abuse and bare minimum care he gets from the Dursleys. He turns out remarkably "whole," almost against the odds. So she helped him not only survive V., but his Muggle family as well. JKR may be sending a message about how extremely powerful parental love is in the WW and the Muggle world.

Ciao. Barb



Jumbo - Oct 7, 2003 8:23 am (#244 of 412)

Although the Dursleys mistreated Harry "to squash the magic out of him" I cant help feeling it was merely the path of least resistance for them. In some ways it would have done more damage to have brought him up excatly like Dudley, in love with muggle materialism and not dreaming of a way to escape his miserable excistance.

Jumbo



Moony's Heir - Oct 7, 2003 8:00 am (#245 of 412)

My crazy theory about the scar

The Time room in the DoM is definitely gonna play a major role in the finale.I was thinking a lot about that when a real mad theory hit me. What would happen if Harry sticks his head into the hour-glass containing the material that transports you through time ? Suppose he comes to the exact time when he is one year old ,when he no longer has the scar. Which means there is no more connection between Voldy and Harry. Would something happen then to Voldy? OK, I admit it : I am a bit crazy.



Carina - Oct 5, 2003 1:32 pm (#246 of 412)

You mean like the baby death-eater guy did? I don't think i want that to happen.



Lumos* - Oct 5, 2003 11:18 pm (#247 of 412)
Edited Oct 6, 2003 12:18 am

I like the time travel part of your theory Moony's Heir.

Maybe Harry would travel back and fix something that happened in the past... so many possibilities don't you think?!

<|Surprised)



Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 9:01 pm (#248 of 412)

I am a small person with an even tinier brain. Please rephrase your theory in 'Baby talk' so that I can understand it. Razz



Sinister Kittens - Oct 7, 2003 8:00 am (#249 of 412)

Moonys Heir - I have been thinking about the time-travel aspects of the WW alot as well, and I find it mentioned all over the place. While I shudder at the thought of putting your head into the glass jar on purpose, yeuch, I find it more than plausible that time plays an important role in the series.

Possibly something to do with DD, he has made a few comments about having all the time in the world and suddenly finding he does not have enough (okay something like that I don't have my book with me).

What does everyone else think about the whole time issue? (I was directed to an archived thread on this subject, but I cannot find the link now - if I can find it I will post it here...)



MoaningMyrtle101 - Oct 7, 2003 2:03 pm (#250 of 412)

I do wish Harry had grabbed a time turner in the DOM, because he could have saved Sirius with it again! Or maybe if Hermione hadn't given up hers...



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Madame Librarian - Oct 7, 2003 2:13 pm (#251 of 412)
Edited Oct 7, 2003 3:13 pm

Whenever time travel rears its complex head, my head starts to spin. I don't mind a hint of things getting worked out with such a device. In PoA, JKR used it judiciously--it was not used to cover loooong periods of time like years, and she was meticulous in keeping the time-stream pure, which is difficult if the amount of time involved is long.

I will be disappointed if a time travel device is a big part of the "solution" to the story. I will feel that JKR will have not really figured things out as elegantly as I'm expecting, and just fixed all the problems and mysteries by using it like a Deus ex Machina; in other words, an easy fix.

Ciao. Barb



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 3:38 pm (#252 of 412)

Yeah, I agree. Like getting them to time travel back so that Lily and James never died or Voldemort never arose.



Sinister Kittens - Oct 8, 2003 2:51 am (#253 of 412)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 3:52 am

Madam Librarian. I know what you mean, the idea of an easy fix is too upsetting, but that's not what I meant. I guess I am having difficulties in explaining myself (as usual!)

I sort of had the impression of DD as an all seeing, all knowing, type of character, with very confused time lines. I'm not suggesting that he would ever go back and 'fix' mistakes, as that would cause far too much upset in the present. Oh, this is a jumble! I will try again in a bit - hopefully someone can untangle this confused mess of thoughts! I suppose I'm just curious about the uses of time travel in the WW, time-turners are strictly regulated, so what can and can't you do with them?



Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 3:06 am (#254 of 412)

That made complete sense to read Sinister, I know sometimes when you're writing it it feels like it is coming out in a jumble.

I looked on the lexicon for information about Time Turners, but there wasn't anything detailed. You can go back in time in hours, as far as I know, thats the only time period you can travel in. So long time period travel (I think) is impossible or unlikely with THIS device.



Madame Librarian - Oct 8, 2003 3:59 am (#255 of 412)

As I said, even discussing time travel is tricky. I did not mean that you were suggesting a time travel fix, Sinister Kittens. I sort of "got" what you meant--that DD was able to "know" stuff about the past and future even, but couldn't change things. I was just stating that I hoped the plot didn't hinge on stuff like that, even if JKR used it to let us in on something. Even that idea is fuzzy. Oy.

Ciao. Barb



Jumbo - Oct 8, 2003 6:18 am (#256 of 412)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 7:21 am

On the subject of time travel.

The time turner or time travel can not be used to change something that has already happened. I PoA DD helps H&H by buying extra moments to rescue Buckbeak, which suggest that he knew what they were trying to do either because he had traveled back in time to help them. Or he quickly reasiled what was going on and decided to help them then and later by suggesting they use TT.

My point being that everything they were going to do before they used the time turner had already happened.

And while we are on the subject... if Hermione used the TT severval time a day for a whole year she would maybe older.

Lets say since I cant rember for sure 40 weeks of school

x 5 school days a week x 2 hour gained using the TT = 400 hours gained

which is over 16 days. Almost enough for her not to be too young to be in that year at Hogwarts.

Jumbo

Sorry for going off topic and talking about Hermoine in Harry's thread and for hurting peoples heads by talking about time travel... Bad Jumbo... Bad Jumbo I will have to punish myself.



Mare - Oct 8, 2003 7:09 am (#257 of 412)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 8:09 am

Hem Hem

(Where is jim? I need to borrow his pink voldemort.)

Sweeties, this is the Harry thread... It is very tricky to start talking about time turners, because a lot of people have different opinions about it. It makes an interesting discussion, but erm... not here.



Pippa - Oct 8, 2003 1:25 pm (#258 of 412)

who here would love to live in the wizarding world?



S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2003 2:09 pm (#259 of 412)

Popkin pointed out on another thread that, though Snape is supposed to be an excellent Occulemens (which means he specializes in being able to block people from breaking into his mind), Harry was able to break into his mind during their Occulemency lessons. Is this a clue to Harry's growing powers? Will he be able to use Legilemency to his advantage at some critical point in future books?



Mare - Oct 8, 2003 2:14 pm (#260 of 412)

Well he has to master occlumency, to shield himself from Voldemort. But I think if he is really going to be able to use Legilemency, JKR has to write it very good not to make Harry some kind of Superman. Because even though he has all the rants and problems a teenager has, he is excelling at a lot of things (Quidditch, patronus, DA)

So this is not really an answer to your question Sarah, but I really hope that he isn't going to learn it. And I think that if he is going to learn it, it won't be before book seven.



Maollelujah - Oct 8, 2003 3:23 pm (#261 of 412)

I didn't think Harry actually broke into Snape's mind, rather Snape's spell bounced off Harry's shield, allowing Harry access to his mind. It seems more of a freak accident than his growing powers.



Madame Librarian - Oct 8, 2003 3:34 pm (#262 of 412)

Not sure this is the right place to ask this--

Can a Wizard be skilled in both Occlumency (being able to keep your mind closed to probing) and Legilemency (being able to probe others' minds)? I'm mixed up on this whole area.

It seems like Harry can do both, but cannot yet control either skill.

Occlumency--He gets into V.'s head in dreams, but cannot just do it at will. Do you think he'll improve and actually use this skill to get information for the Order?

Legilimency--His lessons with Snape went badly and are now cancelled. But it's crucial that Harry be able to block V. from "reading" him.

Ciao. Barb



Gryffin - Oct 8, 2003 3:58 pm (#263 of 412)

Harry is a very curious boy. He jusy can't seem to help himself (DD & Snape's Pensive just to name a few).....So I think it is very likely that he will improve and attempt to get into LV's head. Not with DD's permission I am sure....but becasue he can not help himself.



zixyer - Oct 8, 2003 6:15 pm (#264 of 412)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 7:29 pm

The thing I still find confusing is the nature of the link between Voldemort and Harry.

Harry seems to be able to occasionally see things that Voldemort does, but it seems like most of the time it's things that are concerning Harry or what Harry would be interested in (like Wormtail and Voldemort plotting Harry's death, Mr. Weasley being attacked, Voldemort finding out how to get the prophecy). I guess you could just pin this down to dramatic convenience.

When Harry got so far into Voldemort's head that he was seeing things from Voldemort's point of view, that's when Voldemort realized there was a connection between them. Does this mean that now Voldemort, since he's such a great Legilimens, can see what Harry's thinking any old time? Or is it like with Harry, who can see things that Voldemort does when it would be something that concerns Harry? Or is the whole thing just dramatic convenience and the times Harry sees into Voldemort's head are just random?

After Voldemort possessed Harry and found out that possessing Harry really sucks, all of the sudden Harry can look at Dumbledore without feeling that surge of hatred. Why is this? Did Voldemort break the connection between he and Harry after the failed possession? Or does Voldemort just no longer want to see anything Harry sees because he's so damn full of love?



Sly Girl - Oct 8, 2003 6:21 pm (#265 of 412)

I wondered about that at the end too- I did think it was because after possessing Harry, Voldemort was a bit weak and therefore the connection between them was weakened. But it would seem that perhaps because Voldemort is such a skilled Legilmens, that he can mostly control it so that Harry doesn't see things he isn't supposed to.



LilyP - Oct 8, 2003 10:56 pm (#266 of 412)
Edited Oct 8, 2003 11:58 pm

"Part of the special magic that Lily imparted to Harry with her sacrifice may also be a factor in Harry being so resilient in the face of the emotional abuse and bare minimum care he gets from the Dursleys. He turns out remarkably "whole," almost against the odds. So she helped him not only survive V., but his Muggle family as well. JKR may be sending a message about how extremely powerful parental love is in the WW and the Muggle world."

I know this was from several posts back, but I wanted to comment on what Barb said.

I often wonder how "whole" Harry really is. I think a lot of his difficulty with trusting others and lack of communication skills (not asking for help or communicating what is going on with those in authority) is due to his early abuse. He doesn't trust anyone but himself. It is frequently labeled as a need to play the Hero, but I see it more as a lack of trust of anyone or anything outside himself. I'm afraid we are going to see even more of how "messed up" he really is in this next book. His inability to open up to others when things get really tough will be coming to a head. It will be especially poignant with all that he is struggling with the prophecy. This is going to be a life long struggle for him. (and I just hope it will be a very long struggle)



Weeny Owl - Oct 8, 2003 11:43 pm (#267 of 412)

LilyP - "It is frequently labeled as a need to play the Hero, but I see it more as a lack of trust of anyone or anything outside himself."

I see him that way as well; he had only himself to depend on while growing up and it's a difficult habit for him to break now. I've also wondered, after all the discussions about who will be Quidditch captain, if Harry will even want to play Quidditch when he sees his Firebolt and remembers that it was a gift from Sirius.



Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 3:28 am (#268 of 412)

LilyP, I do not disagree with anything you said, but let me clarify what I meant by "remarkably whole." I was referring to the fact that despite the abusive home life he had, Harry did not, himself become abusive or cruel. His lack of trust and inability to ask questions is "baggage" but not something we'd here call an out-and-out behavior disorder.

As for his behavior in OoP, yes, I certainly think he acted like a git most of the time, but I had to keep reminding myself that he was so scared, frustrated, in the dark, lied to, not believed, in pain, with many thinking horrible things about him, and sleep-deprived to boot. Again, the fact that he lashed out with only the severe case of grouchiness we saw is saying that deep inside there is a resiliency that is amazing.

So, I think we're both right.

Ciao. Barb



Susurro Notities - Oct 9, 2003 4:39 am (#269 of 412)

I agree Madame Librarian. In addition to your list of things Harry had to deal with in OoP I would like to add the obvious, he is a teenager. Harry does have trust issues but I don't think he is any more "messed up" than the typical teenager who does not handle emotional upheaval tactfully but rather gets grouchy and either lashes out or withdraws.



Ricky Warner - Oct 9, 2003 7:25 am (#270 of 412)

Sadly, I am very like HP. I have grown up with similar parent issues, I apparently look similar (I won a comp that said I was number one HP look a like in Southern Hemisphere)and I am nice on here, but I can be very grouchy outside. My mum died when I was younger from a disease she had all my life (literally from the day I was born) and now my dad is about to remarry. i am fine with it, because I think she is a great lady, but omehow, underneath, it makes me lash out at the slightest thing. I can relate to Harry. (I haven't versed a Dark Lord or anything, I know, but I think i have seen Voldemort's ugly face when I wake up in the morning! Smile )



Donna Bright - Oct 10, 2003 2:13 am (#271 of 412)

I find Harry's behavior perfectly acceptable in OotP. If Harry were female, we would say that his mood swings, and irritability were attributed to puberty, hormones raging, body changing. But what holds true for the female also holds true for the male.

Harry is growing, and while he is not fully mature yet, he is still experiencing changes physically as well as mentally. I fully expected him to be angry and sullen, he's a teenager being kept in the dark about a lot of things. Notice when he gets to Grimmauld Place, he screams and rants about how HE was the one to defeat Voldemort, HE was the one who faced a basilisk, HE was the one who chased the dementors away, HE was the one who dueled and survived Voldemort again. But later, after Hermione suggests Harry teach DADA, he tells her and Ron that most of what happened to him was luck, not skill, that he had lots of help.

All through the book, we are shown Harry's mood swings. JKR certainly points that out. One minute he's calm, the next, his anger erupts like a volcano.

There is evidence of this with the other characters also. Ron and Hermione do tend to argue much more quickly. Ron's inability to play Keeper well has a lot to do with his physical as well as mental state. Doesn't it say that Ron seemed to have grown in the month he and Harry were apart?

Well, those are just some of my thoughts.

D



Mayme Fitzgerald - Oct 10, 2003 7:16 am (#272 of 412)

Harry's mood swings are very understandable. The thing that bothers me most is his moral compass. I know he has a lot of reasons to let his anger get away with him, but he did two things in this book that are just plain awful, the Cruciatus curse and his little trip into Snape's pensieve. The invasion of Snape's memories really bothered me. It is true that Snape had been invading Harry's thoughts through the lessons, but that is probably the only way to teach him unless he teaches "theory" like Umbridge. Harry had previously snooped into Dumbledore's memories too. That just seems like such a shocking invasion of privacy. I suppose he suppresses his questions due to life at Privet Drive and views invading the thoughts of others as a better alternative.

I also dislike his transfer of guilt for Sirius' death onto Snape. Ultimately, it is the DEs and Voldy who are responsible, but Harry at one point blames himself and then shifts onto Snape. Frankly, without Snape, while Sirius may not have died, several of the DA members may well have. Things looked pretty grim at the MoM until the Order arrived and Snape got them there.

I know JKR says she isn't writing "Star Wars," but what Harry does when he is angry reminds me of Yoda telling Luke that anger leads to the dark side. Going after Bellatrix by himself reminds me of Sirius going after Peter by himself. If he had enlisted help, he might not have spent all of those years in Azkaban, and Harry's life may have been much different. He does need to control his anger to avoid becoming that which he is fighting.

On another issue, but this thread is so long, I always thought Peter would kill Voldy to fulfill that life debt. Then the prophecy comes along. Could "the hand of the other" be either Peter killing Harry with the hand Voldy made for him, or ironically, Peter killing Voldy due to his life debt with the hand Voldy made him?



Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 7:31 am (#273 of 412)

Mayme, excellent analysis! I, too, had trouble liking Harry in OoP. Despite all the obvious reasons why he was acting like a git, those instances with the pensieves bothered me more than just being irked at his moodiness and so forth. Your use of the term "moral compass" is apt.

I think what is going on with these difficult scenes, is JKR again showing us quite dramatically that there is no hard line between Good and Evil. The world, whether Wizarding or Muggle, is made up of loads of grey areas. Again, the "choices" theme could be invoked here. Harry must always be choosing, and he will not always choose the right path. Even the heroes of the past (James, etal. for example) made bad choices, some that simply showed weakness of character (bullying) some that really crossed the line (Peter's betrayal).

JKR is telling us how human heroes really are, and it is dangerous to assume they are anything but.

Ciao. Barb



Peregrine - Oct 10, 2003 8:42 am (#274 of 412)

Yes, that is an excellent point, Mayme. I was appalled at Harry’s behavior with the pensieve (Snape’s more than Dumbldore’s since this time he knew what the pensieve was). Not only was he being intrusive, but also after Harry got yanked out of Snape’s memory I expected him to make some sort of apology for his father and was very disappointed when he didn’t. All these years Snape has been telling Harry that James was full of himself but when Harry finds out that there was a lot of truth in what Snape said, he couldn’t admit it. Harry said later on that he felt sorry for Snape so why not try to make amends? If it had been me, I would have been apologizing all over the place for my father’s behavior, even if it weren’t my fault.

I’d like to believe that Harry and Snape will come to some sort of understanding now that Harry saw what kind of a git his father could be. And hopefully he’ll remember that Snape did check on Sirius and made sure his life wasn’t in danger before the whole fiasco at the MOM started.



Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 8:51 am (#275 of 412)

Peregrine, not to forgive Harry for his invasion of privacy and for his failure to apologize to Snape, but I think the kid was in a state of shock. It must be awful to suddenly find that someone (your Dad, for instance) that you and everyone has idolized and made into a tragic hero, is such a prat. One minute he's on the grand pedestal, next he knocked off it. Got to be really hard to fathom for a 15-year-old, stressed-out kid. JKR probably knew that a profuse apology would not be in character at that dramatic moment. It just rings truer this way despite the fact that we are angrier at Harry for it.

Ciao. Barb



Susurro Notities - Oct 10, 2003 8:58 am (#276 of 412)

Where would Harry get a moral compass? The Dursley's actions toward Harry betray their public face of moral decency. The atmosphere at Hogwarts encourages ethical behavior but morals are personal codes learned by absorbing the examples set and the lessons taught by family and close friends. Harry has never had a consistent adult to guide his moral development.

Harry is in his teens and even teens with a really good moral up bringing often step outside the bounds of morality.

Put together his age and his up bringing and Harry's behavior makes sense. He doesn't have sufficient internal control to resist the temptation of the pensives. He doesn't have the moral stamina to examine his part in Sirius' death. Harry also doesn't have an adult that he is comfortable enough with to talk to about his moral dilemmas. He came the closest to discussing his feelings with Dumbledore at the end of OoP but he couldn't completely open himself at that time. Maybe he will in the future.



Weeny Owl - Oct 10, 2003 9:00 am (#277 of 412)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 10:05 am

The incident with the Pensieve bothered me too. When Harry goes into the Pensieve in Dumbledore's office, Dumbledore says something about curiosity isn't a sin but caution should be taken. (Sorry, I don't have GoF with me right now, so I can't look up the direct quote.)

That's certainly a foreshadowing of what happened with Snape's memories.

If Dumbledore does teach Harry Occlumency, then I hope he would give Harry a talk about Pensieve etiquette and convince Harry just how deep an intrusion it was for him to snoop, especially after being warned previously.

If Harry talks with anyone else about the incident (Lupin or Hermione?), then maybe Harry will see just how wrong his actions were and try to make amends.

If Harry apologized to Snape I doubt if it would have much of an impact immediately, but maybe it would help Snape eventually see that Harry and James are separate entities, and then Snape could just mellow slightly in his treatment of Harry. He would still have plenty of opportunities to berate Harry for all of the rule breaking, but it might give Snape some food for thought.

Susurro, you have quite an excellent way of explaining Harry's dilema with morals and actions. He has had virtually no good examples or any input during his formative years. He's one confused kid.



Madam Pince - Oct 10, 2003 11:07 am (#278 of 412)

Excellent point, Susurro. Just another example of how important early childhood surroundings can be to a person's moral fiber. Not to say that bad surroundings cannot be overcome, because they certainly can. But it's a good factor about Harry to keep in mind.



Peregrine - Oct 10, 2003 11:32 am (#279 of 412)

Yeah, I suppose you’re right, Madame Librarian...he was in shock. I guess I was expecting them to continue with the lessons since Lupin said he would speak to Snape about it. Then, after some time had passed, Harry could have brought it up (or said something to Snape after potions class). Although, maybe he wouldn’t want to bring it up again because Snape isn’t just angry about what happened but horribly embarrassed too. Harry might feel like it’s just better for everyone if they pretend it never happened. Oh well, it’ll probably come up again anyway.

Could someone refresh my memory? Did Harry apologize at all to Snape (not for his father, but for invading Snape’s privacy in general)? Or did Snape just boot him out of the office straight away? (I lent my book to a friend who lent it to a friend, who has since lost it so I can’t look it up and I could only bring myself to read it the one time because it depressed me so much, so my memory’s a little fuzzy.)



Mayme Fitzgerald - Oct 10, 2003 2:23 pm (#280 of 412)

Gee, my whole point was that he doesn't have much of a moral compass, so I guess now I'm being attacked for daring to think that he should? Last time it was going by the book instead of the Lexicon, now it's wanting him to act morally. Sure he had a rotten childhood, but he is 15 years old. In my church, he is old enough to be confirmed and considered an adult. I believe that would be the same in the Jewish faith with the bar mitzvah ceremony, too. Under the law in this country, it would be old enough to be waived into adult court for a serious offense, like say, torturing somebody. Under the common law, age 7 was often considered the age to know right from wrong. He also seemed to know that looking in the pensieve was wrong, especially since Dumbledore told him it was the year before. My dad works in a prison where everyone has an excuse for their illegal behavior and that's what this sounds like. He was two years older than me in OotP, it is old enough for anyone to know better. I wouldn't think all of the adults in the Muggle school he went to all of those years were awful influences.

For the last 5 years, he has been around Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, Arthur, Molly, Hagrid, and many others, including McGonagal and Snape, who are constantly trying to get him to follow rules. Hermione and Ron appear to be moral peers. He definitely knows what he did was wrong, he did it anyway, and he did not accept responsibility for his actions.

I have a friend who was taken away from his parents when he was 7 cause they beat him. He has been in 22 foster homes since, in several of which he was sexually abused. He is 13 and he is the first one to stand up to bullies at school, he doesn't lie, and he stopped some kids from taking money out of a purse they found. He is still having a rotten childhood, but he certainly knows right from wrong. Sometimes, when you are raised with people of low moral character, you are much more aware of how you should behave.

Sure, you can sympathize with Harry, understand why he acts the way he does, but you have to worry about his future if he continues down this path. Or maybe we're just supposed to assume he'll keep acting this way for the rest of his life cause of his rotten childhood?



Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 2:50 pm (#281 of 412)

Mayme, I'm very sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you. I certainly had no such thoughts. The Forum is a place where opinions and ideas are offered, debated and discussed, and if we all agreed there would be no reason to have a Forum in the first place. Please note that I was not excusing Harry, just expressing why he might have acted that way. Remember, I said it disturbed me, too. He was not a very likeable kid throughout most of the book. I don't think JKR is letting him off easy either. He still has a mess of things to deal with, and now he's lost Sirius. There is time and space for him to learn to trust, to express his feelings, and to nurture a moral compass that seems to be lacking sometimes in OoP.

Ciao. Barb



Susurro Notities - Oct 10, 2003 5:28 pm (#282 of 412)
Edited by Oct 10, 2003 6:38 pm

Mayme Fitzgerald,

The Forum is a place where opinions and ideas are offered, debated and discussed, and if we all agreed there would be no reason to have a Forum in the first place.

Thank you Madame Librarian. Mayme, you may agree or disagree with what others write but you should know that no one here is personally attacking you. In fact you have written some thought provoking things on this and other threads. That is what entices people to respond to you. If you think calmly about the responses you get and view them as debating points you will undoubtably be able to enjoy the debate. (You might also like to check the Molly Weasley thread for a statement regarding the Lexicon vs book issue.)

My previous post was meant only to shed illumination on why Harry would act the way he does not to excuse his behavior. From your youthful vantage point it may not be clear how important moral leadership from parents or consistent parental figures is. It is not impossible to grow to be a moral person without this leadership but it certainly is easier to do so with it.

I believe you are correct in stating that adults should over come their upbringing but Harry is a youth who should not be compared to adult felons. Harry is a remarkably decent guy given the atmosphere in which he spent eleven years. He is now at an important stage where a close relationship with a caring adult to whom he can confide would strengthen his moral compass.

I hope you will continue to post your thoughts. You have interesting viewpoints that stimulate discussion and that's why we all come here.



Sly Girl - Oct 10, 2003 8:28 pm (#283 of 412)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 9:30 pm

Mayme- this is the second time I've seen you lash out at people for disagreeing with you. Please keep in mind that when people respond to something you say, they are, in a sense, posting their ideas/thoughts about HP in the way that they see them. And of course, this may or may not correspond with your ideas or thoughts as yousee them. Sursurro and Barb have both been extremely civil in their replies to you, there is no need to get sarcastic with them for not interpreting something as you do. No one was jumping on you in the Molly thread either and yet you were highly sarcastic there as well. We like all different viewpoints on this forum and yours are more than welcome- you have very intelligent posts. But you have to understand that people will agree to disagree and not to take it personally. No one knows the 'right' way here- we're all just speculating and swapping ideas. That's what makes it fun.



zixyer - Oct 10, 2003 9:21 pm (#284 of 412)

I think it's important to point out that the reason Harry went into Snape's penseive was that he thought everyone was hiding something from him. He didn't expect to see an embarrassing memory. So he didn't really intend to violate Snape's personal privacy in the way that he did; he just wanted to find out what was in the Dept. of Mysteries (which Dumbledore admitted he should have told him about long ago).

My personal opinion is -- Snape never apoligized for breaking into Harry's memories -- why should Harry apologize? They're on an even footing, if you ask me.



Weeny Owl - Oct 10, 2003 10:04 pm (#285 of 412)

zixyer - "My personal opinion is -- Snape never apoligized for breaking into Harry's memories -- why should Harry apologize? They're on an even footing, if you ask me. "

I can see your reasoning, but breaking into memories during the lessons seems a bit different than deliberately going into the Pensieve, especially after Dumbledore's warning.

I do believe that Harry was worried about what Snape was up to and wasn't snooping just to be snooping. He was honestly worried that Snape had ulterior motives and wasn't actually teaching him Occlumency but was opening up his mind even more for Voldie.



Donna Bright - Oct 11, 2003 3:46 am (#286 of 412)

Madame Librarian wrote -

LilyP, I do not disagree with anything you said, but let me clarify what I meant by "remarkably whole." I was referring to the fact that despite the abusive home life he had, Harry did not, himself become abusive or cruel. His lack of trust and inability to ask questions is "baggage" but not something we'd here call an out-and-out behavior disorder.

As for his behavior in OoP, yes, I certainly think he acted like a git most of the time, but I had to keep reminding myself that he was so scared, frustrated, in the dark, lied to, not believed, in pain, with many thinking horrible things about him, and sleep-deprived to boot. Again, the fact that he lashed out with only the severe case of grouchiness we saw is saying that deep inside there is a resiliency that is amazing.

Now me -

When Dumbledore was explaining things to Harry in OotP, he tried to explain why he placed Harry with the Dursleys. He said when Harry came to Hogwarts at first, that his choice was the correct one. Harry came, malnourished and introverted, but basically he was as well adjusted as Dumbledore hoped.

As I have stated previously, Harry is behaving pretty much as I would have expected considering everything he has gone through. He is suffering from all the stress and injuries he has experienced. He is resentful that all that he has done is not, in his opinion, appreciated. He doesn't get the reassurances and unconditional love that most children get from their home life. He is also experiencing puberty with all its raging hormones and changes.

I suspect that the next summer vacation will be a little better for Harry. He will be contacted by members of the order on a regular basis. I think Remus will become more of a parental figure as they both suffer the grief of loosing Sirius. The anger and frustration will still be there but not bubbling so near the surface. There is so much for Harry to work through. Dumbledore realized the mistake he made in not telling Harry things. I think that will also be corrected. I think that Book 6 will be the story where we see a lot of the questions resolved. Book 7 will be the final battle at Hogwarts.

Dare I hope that somewhere down the line there will be a Book 8?

D



eggplant - Oct 11, 2003 9:56 am (#287 of 412)

I don’t understand what Harry is supposed to apologize about, is he supposed to apologize for looking like his father? And Snape didn’t hesitate for one second to invade Harry’s embarrassing memories and even rub his face in it (who’s dog was it?), so I think turn about is fair play. And I think Snape was sabotaging the Occlumency lessons, he keeps saying it’s important to have a calm mind to learn it but before each lesson starts he makes sure to make Harry as angry as possible. I’ll bet when somebody who really wants Harry to learn Occlumency teaches it he’ll pick it up in about 10 minutes.

Eggplant



Weeny Owl - Oct 11, 2003 10:27 am (#288 of 412)

All Harry should apologize about is getting into the Pensieve. He knows what the Pensieve is and was already warned by Dumbledore about curiosity.

Other than that, I agree with you about Snape rubbing Harry's face his own painful memories such as the dog incident.

I'm not sure I agree that Snape's actions are a way of deliberately sabotaging the Occlumency lessons, but rather they are something Snape himself has problems controlling. As much as he says one shouldn't wear one's heart on one's sleeve, it seems that he does that very thing regarding Harry.

It could be deliberate sabotage, but until we get more information from the sixth book, I think it's just that Snape can't control his own emotions where James's son is concerned.



Susurro Notities - Oct 11, 2003 8:21 pm (#289 of 412)

I wonder if Snape made Harry "as angry as possible" (eggplant, 10/11, Post #287) so that the lessons would be as effective as possible? Snape may be trying to prepare Harry to block mind invasions under the most difficult of situations (when the invader has made Harry angry).



eggplant - Oct 11, 2003 8:57 pm (#290 of 412)

If I was Harry after all the hell Snape had put me through for 5 years I wouldn’t dream of apologizing for violating his privacy until he first apologized for violating mine; and then I still wouldn’t apologize. At the end of the last book even after all the agony Harry went through Snape still thought he hadn’t suffered enough so he docked points from Harry. Severus Snape is a very small man.

And I don’t know if Snape deliberately did a poor job teaching Harry Occlumency but I think it’s clear he did a poor job.

Eggplant



zixyer - Oct 11, 2003 9:35 pm (#291 of 412)

I doubt that Snape deliberately made Harry angry based on what Dumbledore said at the end of the book. And if he did, that's a crappy way to teach. It's impossible to learn anything starting right off under the hardest circumstances possible. It's like taking Calculus before having Algebra.



Weeny Owl - Oct 11, 2003 11:01 pm (#292 of 412)
Edited Oct 12, 2003 12:03 am

I did notice that Snape insisted on being called "Professor" or "Sir" from the very beginning of Occlumency. Granted, he's a professor and from the title alone deserves respect from students, but considering the urgency, I thought his power trip did start the lessons off on the wrong foot.

Harry had questions, but Snape got annoyed at being interrupted instead of actually listening to Harry's concerns and fears.

He also just couldn't help himself when he had the opportunity to make insulting comments such as the one about Harry having no subtlety which was why he was such a lamentable potions maker.

I don't think it was deliberate, but considering how Snape is, I think it wasn't the best situation Dumbledore could have put Harry in.



Donna Bright - Oct 12, 2003 2:31 am (#293 of 412)

Now considering how both Harry and Snape feel toward each other, the situation was ripe for discord from the start. Harry doesn't have any respect for Snape and Snape detested Harry from the moment he laid eyes on him. Seeing as how both are creatures controlled by their emotions, there is no reason that their time together would be anything but fraught with ill-will.

Seeing as DD could not teach Harry Occlumency, Snape is the best choice for the job though. Apparently Snape uses Occlumency when dealing with LV. He would have to use it constantly when in contact with the Dark Lord, as LV is a legimeluns (sorry, about the spelling).

DD knows the relationship between Snape and Harry is one of distrust and downright hatred. I think he was hoping that the two of them could overcome this hatred and work together for the good of the Order. He just didn't realize that despite how they felt for one another and the fact that he didn't realize how Harry was feeling about DD at the time, that this was an impossibility. Harry constantly refuses to deal with DD because he feels slighted. He is deliberately avoiding DD througout OotP, whereas in the previous 4 books, he actively seeks him out when there is trouble. He has expected too much from Harry at this point. He is unaware of Harry's feelings because he has avoided speaking with Harry.

Snape cannot overcome the fact that everytime he sees Harry, he equates him with James. He has made no effort to see Harry as his own person. Whenever he referrs to Harry's behavior, he constantly compares him to his father. But DD trusts Snape. He trusts him to overcome his dislike and educate Harry in this matter.

I believe DD was blinded to all these things by his love for Harry and his singlemindedness to have his plan work out. DD is, after all, only human. He is not God, nor does he really have the power to control the situations fully. He merely assumes that because everyone has followed his instructions without question up until now, that they will continue to do so. It is a bit arrogant on his part. Not that I am against DD. On the contrary, I believe that what he did up until now, was completely in keeping with his character. But it is nice to know that JKR has given even the best characters, flaws. Makes them much more interesting.



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 12, 2003 8:00 am (#294 of 412)

I agree with Donna. I under the impression that DD letting Snape teach Harry Occlumensy was a strategic move. DD was afraid that if he taught Harry himself LV would get the impression that Harry and DD had more than a Headmaster/student relationship and that it would get serious consequenses for the Order if LV found out. I thought Snape was the only teacher at Hogwarts who knew Occlumensy/Legilimensy and therefore he was the only one who could teach Harry. Correct me if I'm wrong - but I thought that it was very rare for anyone to know Occlumency/Legilimency.



Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2003 10:20 am (#295 of 412)

Donna:

I like what you've said about the entire Occlumency situation. Your point that Dumbledore is human is important, I believe.

Snape may have been the only one available who could teach Harry Occlumency, and Dumbledore certainly thought he could overcome his hatred for James. That proves that Dumbledore, even with his great wisdom, doesn't always make the right decisions.

I really like this statement: "Seeing as how both are creatures controlled by their emotions, there is no reason that their time together would be anything but fraught with ill-will." If that were pointed out to Harry and Snape, I can only imagine how livid they'd be at anyone having the audacity to think they were that much alike.



Donna Bright - Oct 12, 2003 1:04 pm (#296 of 412)

Weeny Owl, thanks for the compliment.

I have always thought Snape, though an adult, has not matured over the years. He is as vindictive and immature as many of his students. Even though you have knowledge, and as a Potions Master he certainly does, it doesn't mean you have grown. I think that his treatment in school by the other students as well as his own identity of himself has contributed to this. I just get the impression he is teaching merely to take his own frustrations out on his students. Witness his treatment of Hermione when Harry and Malfoy's curses ricocheted to others. His comment that he saw no difference in Hermione was just what a kid Harry and Draco's age would say. He puts on a good act, as an adult, but he hasn't really progressed.

Harry, on the other hand, has matured each book. Admittedly, in OotP he is a typical adolescent male, anger and rebellion bubbling right under his skin. But I believe in the next book we will see Harry progress. He has to work through his grief and anger and we see hints that he is doing so. What he will need is contact with others in the WW. Dumbledore has seen what a mistake it was to leave Harry in the dark. He admitted so. The order members will make contact with Harry every three days. I think this is where Remus will become more and more important.

I know some think that Remus is the potential betrayer, but given the track record of the Marauders, it seems to me unlikely that it will be Remus. He cares as much for Harry as Sirius did. Given his history, though, I think he finds it difficult to get close to anyone. Harry and Remus will heal each other, I think.

At least I hope so, of course I could be wrong...

D



Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2003 1:38 pm (#297 of 412)

Donna:

I agree with you that while it's possible Lupin could betray Harry or the Order, I just can't quite see it that way. I really see him as more of a friend and brother to Harry.

Lupin has always seemed to be a calming influence on people in general. He's had a good relationship with Harry. He knows some of what Harry's been through with stares and gossip because of the reactions of people to him being a werewolf. I think he understands Harry's anxieties more than other people in Harry's life.

I'm hoping you're right, Donna, about Harry progressing over the summer. He will have a large group of people supporting him, and some of his stress will be over since the entire Wizarding World now knows he was always telling the truth.

I do hope Harry and Lupin can have some talks about Sirius and what happened in the Department of Mysteries... ones that JKR lets us in on, of course. With Lupin's gentle manner, I think he can help Harry over some of the rough spots, the anger, and the guilt.

What you've said about Snape not maturing reminds me of his minor hissy fit when Gryffindor won the house cup. I don't remember if it was the first or second book, but Snape's reaction did seem less than adult.



buckbeat - Oct 12, 2003 2:21 pm (#298 of 412)

When I read Lauras post (294) about DD not teaching Harry because LV might realise how their relationship really is, I had the idea, that there is the same danger for the lesson with Snape. I mean, if LV realises that Snape is effectivly teaching Harry occumency, he might get the idea that Snape isn´t exactly on his side. So maybe Snape is extra unfriendly as a cover (not that he has to try hard).



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 12, 2003 7:29 pm (#299 of 412)

I never thought of that~ If Voldemort had been in Harrys thoughts during the time that Snape was talking about Voldemort to Harry........



Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2003 7:55 pm (#300 of 412)

Good point, buckbeat... that could be why Snape had a major hissy fit when Harry mentioned the actual name of Voldemort. Of course, Snape really doesn't need a reason for major hissy fits, but it would explain that particular one.



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Lisaren - Oct 13, 2003 9:37 am (#301 of 412)

I am having a difficult time understanding just why Harry owes Snape an apology. During the last five years, Professor Snape has spent as much time as possible being patronizing, hateful, spiteful, abusive, and just plain mean to an eleven - sixteen year old kid. This kid is subjected to a class with an inhuman beast (at least in his eyes)who begins each class trying to get him as angry as possible. Yes he must learn to control his emotions, but as stated in an earlier post, it should be built up to, not started at the highest level. Not only that, but Snape has accessed and commented on some of the most painful memories this kid has. How would you feel knowing someone who hated you had access and had seen some of your most painful memories (afraid they would use them against you, as they have everything they have been given before? Experience is the best teacher and that is Harry's experience of Snape.) Yes what Harry did was wrong and his actions were inexcusable. But in my opinion Harry only owes Snape an apology for his one infringement on his privacy, but only after Snape has apologized for each day he has spent punishing a child for the actions of his father. He did not know Harry before the hating began, so it can not be for Harry's rule breaking or any action of Harry's. Snape never gave him a chance.



Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 9:48 am (#302 of 412)
Edited Oct 13, 2003 10:51 am

Lisaren:

I agree with everything you've said, but in order for Harry to grow and mature, he needs to take responsibility for his own actions regardless of what anyone else has done.

Growing up and being a responsible person means that Harry needs to look at his own actions apart from the world around him and what anyone else does. He shouldn't take Snape's attitude and make it his own... he should accept that he made a mistake, apologize for it, and then move on.

I see apologizing to Snape as merely something Harry should do to clear his conscience and lessen any guilt he feels for what happened in the Department of Mysteries. The apology wouldn't be for Snape but for Harry himself.

No, Snape has never given Harry a chance, but Harry, being our hero, should take the higher road and not become what he has been subjected to.



Lisaren - Oct 13, 2003 10:10 am (#303 of 412)

Weeny Owl:

I stand corrected and I agree with your reasoning.



Peregrine - Oct 13, 2003 11:20 am (#304 of 412)

I just wanted Harry to apologize because this entire time Snape has been telling him how awful James was and Harry’s never believed him because he himself dislikes Snape. Like that whole business in GoF when Snape accuses James of strutting and Harry vehemently defends him without knowing one way or another how his father really behaved. Next thing we see is James strutting around Hogwarts being a jerk just like Snape said. I don’t know…I guess that scene really got to me. That was one of the few times I took a break from reading because I was so sickened by the Marauder’s behavior and for the first time I actually agreed with Snape. I just really wanted to see Harry…well, maybe “apologize” isn’t the right word, but at least admit (to Snape) that he had a romanticized view of his father and that Snape has good reason to dislike James. Even if Harry would say something like, “Hey, Professor Snape, I know my father was prat towards you and I’m sorry, but that’s no reason to take it out on me,” things would be better. I don’t see Snape being the bigger person in the situation, and if Harry doesn’t do something to make amends I can see him turning all bitter and spiteful just like Snape. It seems likely that Harry will have to master Occlumency and if Snape remains his teacher they’ll have to work it out.

Also, when I read this passage, it never occurred to me that when Snape asked Harry about Aunt Marge’s dog, he was being mean to Harry. I thought Snape was being uncharacteristically nice—like he was realizing how bad of a childhood Harry had and was feeling sorry for him. Weird. I’m going to have to look that over again.



Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2003 7:11 pm (#305 of 412)

Lisaren:

Your take on Snape is really quite good from my point of view. I like seeing how everyone else views the Harry and Snape situation. I will say that Snape and Umbridge can definitely make me seethe.

Peregrine:

I really like the way you put this: “Hey, Professor Snape, I know my father was prat towards you and I’m sorry, but that’s no reason to take it out on me,”



schoff - Oct 13, 2003 11:35 pm (#306 of 412)
Edited by Oct 14, 2003 12:36 am

eggplant: And Snape didn’t hesitate for one second to invade Harry’s embarrassing memories and even rub his face in it (who’s dog was it?), so I think turn about is fair play.

Peregrine: Also, when I read this passage, it never occurred to me that when Snape asked Harry about Aunt Marge’s dog, he was being mean to Harry. I thought Snape was being uncharacteristically nice—like he was realizing how bad of a childhood Harry had and was feeling sorry for him.

I never got the impression Snape was being mean, either. I actually like the idea that Snape said it to throw Harry off--a red herring. If you noticed, the next memory was of Harry being Sorted, and the comments of the Sorting Hat, and possibly being put into Slytherin--Snape's House. Yet Snape chose to ask about the dog.

I agree with those who said Harry needs to apologize for his intrusion into Snape's pensieve. I'm sorry, but I'll never understand why Harry did this when he knew he couldn't get back out! This was an intentional hurt on Harry's part. It's not like he thought he would snoop and not get caught, so Snape would never know his privacy was invaded. Harry had to have known, on some level, that he would get caught by Snape.



A-is-for-Amy - Oct 14, 2003 7:13 am (#307 of 412)

I don't think Harry thought far enough in advance to consider whether he would get caught, or how he would get out of the pensieve. I think it was s pur of the moment thing. I also don't think that he did it to deliberately hurt Snape, but definitely didn't take Snape or his feelings and reactions into account at all. In short - he was being a typical thoughtless teenager, only seeing his own side of things.

Should he have apologized? Sure he should! I think he WOULD have, if Snape hadn't attacked him and began throwing jars around. I think Harry would have seriously wanted to talk to Snape about what he saw.

As for Snape seeing Harry's memories and such, I thought that it was kind of clever for Dumbledore to have Snape be the one to teach him occlumency for just this reason. I got the impression that Dumbledore wanted Snape to see the similarities between himself and the kid he's hated from day one. I think Dumbledore was hoping that Snape's attitutde might change to make him at little more accepting of Harry once he saw what Harry's life was like. Unfortunately, Snape doesn't seem to have the emotional control to make that connection as yet.

Just my two knuts!



Peregrine - Oct 14, 2003 8:42 am (#308 of 412)

I like that idea, Amy. From the beginning Snape seemed to assume Harry was brought up like a celebrity and had anyone told him how badly Harry was really treated, Snape probably wouldn’t have believed it. It’s good that he’s seeing it for himself. And on the flip-slide, Harry got to see a little bit of Snape’s rotten childhood too.



Weeny Owl - Oct 14, 2003 8:49 am (#309 of 412)

It seems to me that Harry was just worried that Snape was opening his mind even further to the invasion by Voldie and just didn't carry his worries and his actions to their logical conclusion... being caught.

I like the idea that maybe Dumbledore thought it might be a way for them to see each other in a different light. I think Harry was leaning in that direction, and maybe Snape was as well, but the Pensieve invasion put an end to that.



Romulus - Oct 15, 2003 6:37 am (#310 of 412)

The Snape/Harry lessons always reminded me of something from "To Kill a Mockingbird" - if you want to understand someone, walk a mile in their shoes. I think Dumbledore believes that throwing them together in that situation will improve their relationship long-term. It remains to be seen if this will happen. As has been pointed out elsewhere, when you get down to it, Snape isn't actually very nice, and Harry isn't going to win any awards for "Mature Teenager of the Year" anytime soon.

Away from the Snape/Harry dynamic, I have recently been rereading the series (again) from Book 1, and am now halfway through PoA. Once more I am struck by how little curiosity Harry seems to show. Surely he would be asking everyone (Hagrid, DD, McG, Lupin, Pomfrey, Hooch, even the Fat Lady and Nearly Headless Nick) if they knew anything about his parents?

I am also struck by how quickly he takes responsibility on himself in PS. Harry knows practically nothing of the Voldemort era except what Hagrid told him the first time they met. And yet when they are about to try to get the stone, Harry lectures Ron and Hermione on how awful the world will be if Voldemort wins. Harry is good at making correct decisions from minimal information.

Finally, after Harry being (frankly) a whining pitiful self-obssessed idiot in OotP, it was a relief to remind myself of his kindness and basic goodness - particularly the Dobby scene in CoS where he treats the unknown house-elf with respect and kindness and the scene in the Gryffindor common room in PS when he gives Neville his last choclate frog and tells him he is worth twelve of Malfoy.



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 8:07 am (#311 of 412)

Andrew:

About Harry taking on responsibility, he's had to all of his life after living with the Dursleys. He's had no one he could turn to so he had to learn the hard way how to solve his own problems. I truly think that's why he breaks rules... not that he feels he's above them but that when he's faced with a challenge, he has no choice but to face it himself.

His whining and self-obsessed manner in OotP are understandable in that he's a teenager, he's incredibly frustrated because so many things are happening to him and no one will explain, and he's been scared in one way or another since the Dementors. There is more stress on him from the attack, being locked in his room, the trial, not having Hagrid, having Umbridge, the Daily Prophet articles, and the way people are treating him... even people who have know him for years such as Seamus and Lavender.

Harry does have a great deal of compassion, and as you pointed out, it's evident in the way he is with Dobby. I just loved it when he supported Neville with the "you're worth twelve of Malfoy" statement. Harry has a huge heart, and no matter how much of an idiot he may be at times, he's goodness always comes through in the end.



Madame Librarian - Oct 15, 2003 11:02 am (#312 of 412)

I've said this before, but when I got irked at Harry, I kept reminding myself that in addition to all the things Weeny Owl pointed out, Harry was often in great pain (his scar) and sleep deprived (people get real cranky or worse--some go psychotic--when they are short on sleep sleep). I think he's more than just scared--I think he's terrified, and isn't able to let that show.

Ciao. Barb



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2003 2:10 pm (#313 of 412)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 3:10 pm

Oh, wow, Madame Librarian, how could I have forgotten his actual physical pain and lack of sleep? (Is there a smilie to show an owl bopping herself on the head and having a V-8 moment?)

You're right, though, about what being short on sleep as well as being in pain can do, and also, you're right about him being terrified.



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 16, 2003 3:14 am (#314 of 412)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 4:17 am

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're loosing your grip on the book just a little ...

It's true, Harry is depressed most of the book but it sounds to me like you make it much worse than it really is. Considering everything that you've mentioned is going on around him, I think he's reacting very calm. If I had all of these problems I would be a lot more frustrated that Harry seems to be.

DD tells Harry why he had Snape teaching him Occlumensy. It was because (as I think I've mentioned before) DD thought that if LV possessed Harry, he would make a threat to the Order and, besides, DD didn't want to put Harry in any danger of being possessed by LV. DD also explains to Harry that it was a mistake to let Snape teach Harry ("some wounds are too deep for healing", right?) and that he should have predicted that Harry was too full of love for LV to possess him which made it irrelevant for Harry to learn Occlumensy because LV wouldn't be able to access Harry's mind anyway, because of the pain it contributes him.

Harry entered the Pensieve because he thought Snape was hiding thoughts about the DoM from him. But there were other reasons too. I doubt that Harry would have entered the Pensieve if that had been the only reason. Not even Harry is that foolhardy.

The reason why Harry even payed attention to the Pensieve was that it was making luminous reflections at the door when he was leaving Snape's office. These reflections reminded him of his dream in the DoM and he turned to find out what made them ... the Pensieve. Harry knew that it was wrong and though he didn't consider what might happen if he got caught, he did wonder how long it would take Snape to pull Montague out of the toilet.

Harry looked down the Pensieve and he knew that it was crazy to do it but he changed his mind when he thought of his fight with Cho and Malfoy's taunts. He just felt audacious courage.

I'm not completely sure of all this and I'm sorry if it's hard to understand me ...



Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 6:13 am (#315 of 412)

LauraAngel, I don't think anyone is "losing their grip on the book..." (maybe on other things, but not this). We're all just offering reasons why we can understand or not understand Harry's behavior, which admittedly has been on a bit of a downward spiral. That's all. Nobody's is giving up on the kid, at least it doesn't seem so to me. I'm particularly analytical because I think JKR is doing such a good job of creating a complex set of characters and conditions, and I enjoy discussing how she accomplishes that.

I don't think anyone on this Forum forgets for a minute that we're dealing with fiction here. It's just when you're caught up in the actual reading of the book, you have to willingly suspend your disbelief and get drawn in for the best impact. That's the marvelous thing about a good yarn and good literature.

Ciao. Barb



Peregrine - Oct 16, 2003 7:48 am (#316 of 412)

Whoa, wait a second…Harry’s not real? D’oh! That’s why he’s not answering my owl posts!

But seriously, good call on the sleep depravation and pain. I had completely forgotten that too. My mom just (finally) finished the book and she didn’t like it too much because Harry was too “grouchy” through the whole thing. No doubt she didn’t realize these factors either (of course, she also said Sirius wasn’t essential to the plot, so I’m not sure she was even reading the same series as I was). I’ll have to point it out to her—try to sway her opinion on Harry.



Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 8:23 am (#317 of 412)

Laura - "he should have predicted that Harry was too full of love for LV to possess him which made it irrelevant for Harry to learn Occlumensy because LV wouldn't be able to access Harry's mind anyway, because of the pain it contributes him. "

I cannot agree with that because Voldie was already invading Harry's mind which is why Occlumency was so urgent.

As for losing one's grip? I think most of the Potter-obsessed have a tenuous hold anyway... at least I know I do.

Barb, when I'm caught up in the reading, it's so easy to think of Harry's story almost as a biography. His growth from eleven to fifteen and all the changes and differences are amazing. Analyzing what is an important clue or what isn't has made this series a true joy.

Peregrine: Send your mother our way... we'll help you change her mind.



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 16, 2003 9:52 am (#318 of 412)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 10:53 am

Madame Librarian – I’m sorry. Now that I’m re-reading my post I see that I didn't’ express myself clear. And it was misunderstand for good reason… I didn't’ mean that people are ”loosing their grip on the book”, I meant something closer to: people are starting to discuss reasons and options and twisting facts that are given very clear in the books. I just meant that some posts are contradicting with facts that are very clear. I definitely didn't’ mean to offend anyone. Hope I didn't’t

And Weeny Owl – I seem to have made myself very unclear. I knew I should have re-read my post! Well, as for as I understood it, LV was using Legilimensy to enter Harry’s dreams but in the MoM he possessed Harry. (I hardly understand this part myself, which makes it very hard to explain to others how I understand it ) Harry needed to earn Occlumensy to keep the dreams from coming, not to keep LV from possessing him (Oy, now I’m arguing with myself! can’t be a good sign) I have a good theory, I just can't find the words for it! It’s all in my head! Argh! I just can’t get it out. I’ll think about it and see if it comes out in my next post …



schoff - Oct 16, 2003 10:04 am (#319 of 412)
Edited by Oct 16, 2003 11:07 am

Well, as for as I understood it, LV was using Legilimensy to enter Harry’s dreams but in the MoM he possessed Harry

I didn't really get that at all. The only times I think Voldie used Legilimency on Harry was right after Harry's "snake" dream (when Harry looked at DD and felt the hate) and the final dream of Sirius at the DoM. I think there might have been one other time when Harry looked at DD with hate, but I don't remember when. The possession in the MoM is a different power, one that Voldie used a lot when he was without a body. He says in GoF that the only power left to him was the ability to possess other bodies. (GF ch33 US653)

I think Harry was "piggy-backing" on Voldie's emotional state. That is to say, when Voldie was very angry (or happy) it made the connection between him and Harry stronger, allowing them both to share the memory. I don't think Voldie was aware Harry could do this until the Arthur and the Snake incident. I also think Voldie still doesn't realize how strong the link can get, or why would he allow Harry to see the conversation with Voldie and Rookwood? That happened after the Snake dream.



S.E. Jones - Oct 16, 2003 10:21 am (#320 of 412)

LauraAngel - "he should have predicted that Harry was too full of love for LV to possess him which made it irrelevant for Harry to learn Occlumensy because LV wouldn't be able to access Harry's mind anyway, because of the pain it contributes him. "

As you just said, he needed to learn Occulemency to prevent the dreams and to prevent Voldy from using Legilemency to penetrate his mind. He still needs to do this. The love in him only prevents Voldy from possessing him, not from breaking into his mind.

As far as people twisting facts that are clearly stated in the books, I disagree. In fact, I disagreed with some of the facts you mentioned as being clearly stated in the text because I interpreted the scenes differently. I love hearing everyone's opinions on why characters did what they did and such because such post carry with them some of the poster's background and mindset, as well as a new perspective on the characters and plot.... Keep the thoughts coming guys!



Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 11:47 am (#321 of 412)

Laura:

Okay, now I understand what you're saying about Voldie and the Occlumency thing.

S.E.: I love the differing opinions myself. I've changed my views somewhat about some of the characters based on others' interpretations of what they've read.



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 16, 2003 2:27 pm (#322 of 412)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 3:28 pm

Don't we all change our view of the characters? That's one of the reasons I'm here ... to hear what others have to say.

Weeny Owl -- I'm really glad you get it, because I'm not sure I do...

Okay, I need to be more precise ... Uh, I almost feel like a target with all these posts attacking me!

I think I almost promised someone a theory, so here it goes:

I’ve been thinking about it and now I doubt that LV ever used Legilimensy on Harry. When he possessed him, that was that, it was that simple; and when Harry was experiencing dreams and memories that didn’t belong to him, it was the connection between him and LV.

Harry already had the dreams when we first met him in the book. He had probably had them ever since the return of LV. Whenever LV was thinking/dreaming (I’m not sure) about the corridor, Harry would have that dream too. Harry’s mind was the weakest (for good reason and all through the book) and that was why Harry was experiencing what LV was dreaming and not the other way around (at least so I think…)

Later when Harry’s mind got even weaker (when he was asleep after the Occlumensy lessons), he entered LV’s mind (or alternatively: maybe Harry didn’t access LV’s mind but LV’s thoughts, feelings etc was “transferred/copied” to Harry’s mind) and experienced what LV was experiencing at that moment from LV’s point of view (the “Snake-situation”).

The same thing happened in the Rookwood-situation (I think but it’s not nearly as clear to me as the rest).

LV found out about the connection at some point (probably from the “Snake-situation”) but might not have understood what was happening. But when he found out he made a plan and changed Harry’s thoughts by changing his own. He showed Harry the way to find the prophecy and when he got enough information, he even showed Harry that Sirius was being tortured.

LV found out about the connection and took advantage of it.

Maybe the connection creates some kind of a balance between the two of them (it would fit with the whole “mark him as his even”-thing). When one mind is really strong and the other is really weak, the strong mind transfer some of it’s “strength/thoughts to the weakest.???

Well, I also thought that DD might have doubted how separated they were. Remember the “but in essence divided”-thing? Maybe he was referring to Harry and LV. Maybe he was asking whether they really were “two persons” (hope you know what I mean) and not just two sides of the same “essence”. ???

Anyway, it's in the middle of the night and I'm sorry if I've just been wasting everyone's time with a lot of nonsense. Just thought I would share my ideas before I forget them.

Good night



S.E. Jones - Oct 16, 2003 2:36 pm (#323 of 412)

Laura, I don't think anyone was attacking you. On reading my previous post, I can see how it may have sounded a little, er, grouchy, but I assure you I didn't mean it that way. I like your thoughts in your last post and I absolutely agree with your assumption that Lord Voldemort was simply taking advantage of the connection between them. I agree that LV has never, as of yet, used Legilimency on Harry, but I think it's still a possibility so he still needs to be learning Occulemency.



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 16, 2003 2:39 pm (#324 of 412)

I'm glad we agree.

It was meant as a joke when I mentioned that I felt attacked. I'm just not used to this many people answering my post at the same time ...



!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 17, 2003 12:20 am (#325 of 412)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 1:21 am

I see now that my post actually almost makes sence... I would love to make my thoughts more detailed, but I need to read the book again before I do and since I just finished it, I might take a while ...



nmnjr - Oct 18, 2003 9:20 am (#326 of 412)
Edited by W J Oct 18, 2003 10:17 am

Why do we know so little about Harry's family?

The books are from Harry's perspective, so in theory, we should find out most of the things he finds out. Then why do we know so little about his family? If at 11 years old, I discovered they weren't killed in a car crash but instead by resisting a Dark Wizard, I would want to know more of what happened. I'd also want to know where were any other relatives, and if there weren't, what happened to them all.

Why don't we know anything about his grandparents, aunts and uncles if there were any, what they did, or where they lived? Why don't we know more about James and Lily's back story? Also, if the Potters were pure-blooded, then Harry should be related to almost every other pure-blood, according to Sirius.

Harry's had plenty of chances to ask. Hagrid, Albus Dumbledore, and especially Sirius and Lupin would have been fonts of information.

Why hasn't Harry asked?



Lumos* - Oct 17, 2003 7:47 pm (#327 of 412)
Edited Oct 17, 2003 8:48 pm

You know, I have always , constantly, thought the same thing as you - why can't Harry just ask!? Not only about this, but there are so many other things he could have found out if he had just asked! I can't answer you're question because I agree with you, nmnjr.

<|Surprised)



Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 18, 2003 11:40 am (#328 of 412)

He was brought up to not ask questions so it seems unatural to him.



Madame Librarian - Oct 18, 2003 11:48 am (#329 of 412)

nmnjr and Lumos*--

We've hashed and re-hashed the question of Harry's reluctance to ask questions quite a bit on this thread. Go back a bit on this very thread and read carefully.

In brief, we offered up the ideas such as--

Harry was raised by the Dursely's to keep quiet and not ask questions.

Harry is the "new kid on the block" so to speak in the WW, and is very careful at first not to make waves-- he probably thinks: "no questions, don't pester adults, there's sooo much new stuff to absorb, wow, I can't believe this is happening to me!"

Harry doesn't develop trust easily, again thanks to the Dursleys. Every time he starts to ask Hagrid (who is his first "guide" to the WW sort of), something amazing or fantastical happens, or Hagrid gets vague and evasive. Once the plot really gets going and even more issues come up, Harry has learned to be wary of people, especially the teachers at school.

This is just a re-cap based on my limited memory, so don't take it as something everyone agrees on. It's really helpful to read through a thread (yes, I know they're long, but the longer they are means that it's likely a topic that just occurred to you will have been discussed before).

Happy reading!

Ciao. Barb



Choices - Oct 18, 2003 5:33 pm (#330 of 412)

Harry's Patronus

I am curious about something.....in PoA during the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor quidditch match, Harry produces a Patronus when he thinks the dementors are coming for him. It says something enormous and silver/white errupts from the end of Harry's wand and flys towards the dementors on the ground. (Chapter 13) The stands are full of spectators and yet no one but Prof. Lupin seems to notice the Patronus. Lupin comments to Harry after the game, "That was quite some Patronus". Considering the degree of difficulty in producing a Patronus, especially by a 13 year old wizard, you would think that everyone would be amazed and there would be many comments.

Later, in OotP, when the students are meeting in the Hog's Head to form the DADA group, Susan Bones asks Harry if it's true he can produce a corporal Patronus and when Harry says yes, Lee Jordan says "Blimey, Harry, I never knew that". Yet, guess who was announcing the game in PoA when Harry produced the Patronus? None other than Lee Jordan - how could he have missed seeing it? And how could he have forgotten about it. I'm sure it was a very memorable sight. I am just at a loss to understand why more was not made of this amazing feat of magic and why none of the students, who can't all have missed that quidditch match, don't seem to remember it. Any thoughts on this??



Matt Allair - Oct 18, 2003 9:20 pm (#331 of 412)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 10:23 pm

You know, it's been debated here a number of times but I wanted to add my two Knuts. Is Harry a powerful wizard? I have no doubt about that, we've seen the evidence again and again. Is Harry becoming aware of how powerful he is? I think so, but the more interesting question remains, through his awareness, how will he use his power?

If Voldemort and Dumbledore illustrate examples for Harry of what to be or not. What can one take "power" to mean? I don't know, but power without the wisdom to know when to use it, is meaningless. It will be curious to see, as Harry gains in skill, if he'll keep his confidence in check. I think you can see a similar trait in Voldemort and James Potter, even though they are on opposite sides of the spectrum, a confidence that leans to arrogance.

The major difference is that Voldemort lost his connection to being human, understanding ethical limitations. You have to admit that it takes arrogance to try to overcome death itself, not prolong life mind you, but to aim for immortality. Dumbledore understands that all things have their place in life. All beings, all life is valuable and that it's okay that we are mortal.

So to get back to Harry, will he learn the lessons that his father did not learn? The lessions that Voldemort did not learn? Will this knowledge be something that he'll apply in how he uses his "Power".

I think Dumbledore gave him a powerful lesson at the end of OOP, that the unbearable pain us mortals go through during grief, is as valuable as the joys we experience in life. You can't change what has been done in the past, but you can learn from it. Harry can't use his Power to change the past, that's not his place to do so, but he can use it to help other's in his immediate circle.

It will be interesting to see, if Harry survives, what kind of adult Wizard he turns out to be.



Nox NotteTorrente - Oct 18, 2003 11:45 pm (#332 of 412)



Hi Choices,

I guess most of the Quidditch action is in the air, where most people would be looking, while the Dementors would have been on the ground. The patronus would have been heading down towards them.

Just a guess...

Nox



Donna Bright - Oct 19, 2003 2:28 am (#333 of 412)

Choices - I got the impression that Draco and his cronies were off the pitch when they disguised themselves as dementors. Harry shot his patronus at them, but it did not take form until it hit the ground and charged them. The most anyone would have seen, would have been the silver wisp that shot out of Harry's wand. Then their attention would have been drawn to Harry's capture of the snitch.

Matt - I agree, Harry is definitely a powerful wizard. His "emotional" magic before he attends Hogwarts is something I do not think an ordinary wizarding child would exhibit. Also, JKR gives us plenty of examples of how, when Harry focuses, his magic is quite strong. In SS it is his flying ability. In CoS, it is his ability to make Fawkes hear his loyalty to DD (and yes, I believe that was magical ability). In PoA, he produces a corporeal Patronus at age 15. In GoF, he fights a returned Voldemort and aquits himself admirably, by concentrating his thoughts and pushing those beads of light back to a returned and strong Voldemort's wand. And when summoning his broomstick for the first task, wasn't Flitwick impressed with his ability? In OotP, the mere fact that he is able to Crucio Bellatrix, althought the spell doesn't stick, is proof that he is strong. I do not think that children, and they still are children, would be able to inflict any strong pain as the Crucio seems to me to be a complex spell.

I think that in the next two books, Harry will begin to realize how strong he really is. As he matures and overcomes his anger and grief he will begin to see that he has great power. DD did tell him he has more of that "secret" power than most wizards.

It would be fantastic if JKR tells us everyone's future in that last chapter she has already written.

And, on a personal note, I do hope that somewhere down the line she finds that she wants to revisit the Potterverse (oh how I like that word) and gives us another story or two.



Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 19, 2003 2:43 am (#334 of 412)

I agree with Donna because Hermy described Lupins and Dumblys Patronus as, "silvery thing" (P67 Dementor), or "Shot silver stuff" (P136 Grim defeat uk). I agree that pupils would have been concentrating on the win. The teachers would have been watching why Harry used his wand during a match. Hence McG hurrying over to put Malfoy et al. in detention.

I dont know how extraodinary Harrys emotional magic is because we have never had anyone else to compare against. But I agree that Harrys focussed magic is well above that of his peeers.



Fawkes8U - Oct 19, 2003 6:17 pm (#335 of 412)

Harry's got an impressive resume for one so young in magic. I think that his knowledge will also serve him well. He's able to put 2+2 together quickly in an emergency. His ability to force Voldemort's wand to reverse its' spells speaks of powerful magic. I see Voldemort & whoever else getting more desperate to get Harry as the years at Hogwarts roll on. With each year, Harry gains more knowlege of spells, creatures, skills, etc... If Harry can fend off Voldie at 14, imagine the strength and knowledge he'll have at 17. AS far as Harry being killed off, I personally don't think so. If J.K. had a bawling fit after she killed off Sirius, I think she's be hysterical after killing off Harry. If Harry does die, I think that it would be in order for him to go to a better/happier place and be with all of the people he loves. Then you wouldn't mind it as much.



eggplant - Oct 20, 2003 9:35 pm (#336 of 412)

I’m sure lots of people saw the Patronus at the game but they had no way of knowing that Harry was the one who produced it, there were thousands of people there. And Harry is not the sort to start bragging about it.

Eggplant



Ydnam96 - Oct 21, 2003 9:50 am (#337 of 412)

As far as I understood the prophecy and how DD explained it, it is not that no one else COULD kill Harry or Voldemort, just that no one WILL. The prophecy does not determine the future, it just tells what will happen in advance...there is a slight distinction there between the future being determined and simply being known.



shepherdess - Oct 21, 2003 11:15 am (#338 of 412)

Donna Bright: "His "emotional" magic before he attends Hogwarts is something I do not think an ordinary wizarding child would exhibit."

SS, US p.58, Hagrid: "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?"

Why would Hagrid ask this if it wasn't common?



zixyer - Oct 21, 2003 11:32 am (#339 of 412)

It's not that other wizard children couldn't do emotional magic, it's just that all of Harry's emotional magic was extremely powerful.



Donna Bright - Oct 21, 2003 2:34 pm (#340 of 412)

Ah, Shepherdess zixyer is correct. It's not that other wizarding children couldn't do emotional magic, but theirs is not a powerful as Harry's. Also, I don't think that their emotional magic is a specific as Harry's tends to be. If that were so, then a lot more wizarding children would be in trouble with the MoM. I do think the MoM takes into account that children will react emotionally to things that happen to them. They would produce some emotional magic uunintentionally. Colin Creevy says that his family couldn't figure out all the weird stuff he was doing was magic. He does not mention that he received warnings from the MoM. I believe it has to be powerful magic that gains the MoM's attention. Therefore, Harry would certainly be in trouble when he performs the magic than others.

Of course, I could be wrong... D



Hem Hem - Oct 21, 2003 4:04 pm (#341 of 412)

As for Harry's Patronus, the one that he sent out at the Quidditch game was an indistinct, vapory Patronus. I think that the ability to produce a corporeal patronus is a lot more uncommon and distinctive... and Lee Jordan had no idea he could make one of those.



Susurro Notities - Oct 21, 2003 4:10 pm (#342 of 412)
Edited by Oct 21, 2003 5:10 pm

I cannot recall any specific instances of childhood (pre-Hogwarts) magic other than the very scant description of children at the Quidditch World Cup. It seems there is little to compare Harry's childhood emotional magic to. Colin Creevy did not receive warnings from the MOM because he was pre-Hogwarts when the "weird stuff" happened, just as there is no evidence that Harry received warnings about emotional magic pre-Hogwarts.

I agree that Harry is likely a powerful wizard but I do not think that the caliber of his childhood emotional magic is evidence of his power.



S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 7:53 pm (#343 of 412)

It's not that other wizarding children couldn't do emotional magic, but theirs is not a powerful as Harry's. Also, I don't think that their emotional magic is a specific as Harry's tends to be.

Well, Neville's emotional magic made him bounce after being dropped out of a window and he bounced down the walk. Fred's emotional magic turned Ron's teddie bear into a spider (I'd say that's specific enough to qualify as Transfiguration). I'd say that those two examples are pretty equivalent to the emotional magic Harry's shown. And, I agree that we don't really have enough evidence of other's emotional magic to compare to much with Harry's.

BTW, when did Harry ever get a letter from the MoM for doing emotional magic? The only letters he's ever gotten, that I can recall, have been for specific spells. Fudge mentioned inflating Marge but that wasn't one of the charges and he only mentioned it because he was losing his argument....



Susurro Notities - Oct 21, 2003 8:27 pm (#344 of 412)

Thank you for the other examples of youthful emotional magic S. E. Jones and also for your insight that not only has Harry not received letters for youthful emotional magic he has not been penalized for any emotional magic.



schoff - Oct 21, 2003 8:51 pm (#345 of 412)
Edited by Oct 21, 2003 9:51 pm

I have the feeling that had not Harry been missing, and everyone worrying if he was dead, Harry would have been in serious trouble about the Marge incident. The only reason he wasn't was that everyone was relieved that Sirius hadn't killed him before he was found. Ron even makes the comment that had it been him (Ron) he wouldn't have been as lucky.



S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2003 9:04 pm (#346 of 412)

Yeah, but Ron also comments that they would've had to dig him up first because his mom would've killed him. I think this is one of the biggest reasons wizarding children aren't monitored as much for using magic at home as Muggle-born children (or children living with Muggles), there are wizarding parents there to take charge of them if they do some bit of magic they're not suposed to. But, we still don't know that other Muggle-born children haven't gotten in trouble or that Harry really would have. (Although, I do think it mattered that he was a 3rd year at this point and had been taught some control as in difference to an entering 1st year who has no background with magic whatsoever.) Also, Harry didn't hear anything when he made the glass in Marge's hand explode (Yes, I know some people think it was really Petunia who did it, but the point is the same. If emotional magic was performed, why didn't the MoM assume it was Harry and send him a letter.)....



LilyP - Oct 21, 2003 9:44 pm (#347 of 412)
Edited Oct 21, 2003 10:45 pm

I wonder if there is a difference between emotional magic and magic using the wand. Emotional magic can't always be controlled. Use of the wand or spells is different and easily monitored. I think Fudge was desperately grabbing at quicksand, so to speak, as it started to look like Harry was going to get out of the expulsion during his trial. I really wonder if someone can get into trouble for emotional magic. (OK - have at me )



Mrs. Sirius - Oct 22, 2003 8:35 pm (#348 of 412)

In PS/SS Aunt Petunia says that when Lilly came home from Hogwarts for the holidays she had pockets full of frog spawn and "turning teacups into rats".

So Lilly did magic away from Hogwarts and there seems to be no indication that she got into trouble with the ministry. So either Harry's behavior is more closely monitored and scrutinized, or the rules have changed, exceptions can be made or Petunia is making it up or conveniently forgetting Lilly's consequences.



Sinister Kittens - Oct 23, 2003 2:55 am (#349 of 412)

Or Lily was 17. But I must admit Mrs. Sirius, that line always irked me slightly. Like alot of people here I am of the opinion that HP is being watched alot more carefully than others (and with good reason).



A-is-for-Amy - Oct 23, 2003 7:42 am (#350 of 412)

I just took it to mean that Lily talked about (or wrote home about) turning teacups into rats. I would assume that her parents would want to know what she was learning while she was away from home, and they naturally would have talked about it.



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LilyP - Oct 23, 2003 4:49 pm (#351 of 412)

(OK I Know this is probably better on another thread - but it fits here) OR Petunia let it slip that she saw Lily do magic - and the only place she could have seen her turn a tea cup into a rat was at Hogwarts. Maybe she was there - at least for a while. (Yes, this is really more an argument for the Petunia thread, but it fit with the topic. I'll repeat it there).



A-is-for-Amy - Oct 24, 2003 8:58 am (#352 of 412)

The only reason I could think of for Petunia to be at Hogwarts (I amone of those pesky people who doesn't believe Petunia is an unercover witch in any way shape or form) would be there with her parents to see Lily for something - a graduation ceremony? A Quidditch match?

Anyway, I don't have my book handy, but didn't Petunia say that that Luly did those thing during her summer holidays?



Sly Girl - Oct 24, 2003 7:04 pm (#353 of 412)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 8:05 pm

Guys, this is the HARRY thread... please take the Petunia talk to the Petunia thread. Thanks.



Joanna S Lupin - Oct 25, 2003 10:56 am (#354 of 412)

hi!

yes, you're right:) Harry couldn't fail his potion OWL, it would be relly dull without Snape as his teacher



Donna Bright - Oct 25, 2003 1:55 pm (#355 of 412)

If y'all recall, in OotP, Harry surprised himself by doing better on his practical potions OWL than he thought he would. Whenever he is in class brewing potions, there is always something else on his mind distracting him from what he is doing. For Harry, the class is not the best environment for him to concentrate upon instructions.

Did you ever wonder if Harry was ADD? (Attention Deficit Disorder) My son is ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder), and he and Harry share some traits. Harry seems to be easily distracted, has a bit of trouble focusing (although this could be due to whatever is happening around him at the time), and he is impulsive. Although there are more symptoms to the disorder, I think it just might be a possibility.

I know that y'all may be gasping in shock, but forums like these are places to explore possibilities.

Of course, I could be wrong...

D



fidelio - Oct 25, 2003 2:27 pm (#356 of 412)

He could just be an adolscent boy with way too many stressful things going on in his life.



Sly Girl - Oct 25, 2003 11:58 pm (#357 of 412)

I don't think JKR is going to write about Harry having ADHD.



katayoun - Oct 26, 2003 6:18 am (#358 of 412)

was going through the messages since that i`m new here.i found some important things: 1.i`m sure that Harry is really powerful but i can`t imagine him someone as powerful as Dark Lord or even Dumbledore.i mean he could survive when he was 11 years old but that was not because of him . it was because of Lily Potter and we learn in SS that she was a specialist in charms . Harry`s mother`s love could save Harry not himself. and i suppose sure he would be able to vanquish Voldemort with power of love not with the power of magic because we all know that he can`t possibly become that much powerful in just two years and if the story want to lead this way it would be n`t be believable 2. yes Harry could defend himself against posesession but and Ginny couldn`t but i was under the impresion that their stuations were very different since Ginnny was controled in some times but Harry is possesed physicaly . i think that they are very different. 3. i was really excited about Petonia being at Hogwarts because i read somewhere that someone will find their magical ability in late of her life.



Jim the Potty - Oct 26, 2003 9:37 am (#359 of 412)

Hi katayoun! If you're new you may want to read Lexicon Steve "-- Philosophy of this Forum - Please Read!" 9/7/03 1:46pm.

You will notice that the first part of your message is in italics. This is because you used a lower case I, "i" at the start of the line. Using lower case letters etc on this forum is not acceptable as many of our members do not speak English as ther first language and have difficulty understanding posts like yours.

Please try to avoid simple errors like this in the future and enjoy your visits to the Lexicon Forum!



Kip Carter - Oct 26, 2003 3:58 pm (#360 of 412)

Jim,

I appreciate your concern for katayoun and your advice. His native language is not English and he is doing his best. Give him some time and encouragement. He has been on the Forum less than three weeks and this is only his seventh post.

I know you can really be a great buddy to have, especially being he is a teenager like you (he is 18) and teaches at an English school. Pass the word to your friends to work with katayoun and help him along the way.

Thanks!



popkin - Oct 26, 2003 6:00 pm (#361 of 412)

Well, there have been a few slow days on the Snape thread, so I thought I'd catch up on Harry. Whew!

One comment: Harry will not necessarily kill Lord Voldemort (or vice versa). One of them will "vanquish" the other. While that seems to mean "defeat" or "rid the world of", I don't think it will mean that Harry will have to end LVs life - just make sure he is rendered ineffective.

Note that Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald in 1945. Again a careful choice of words on JKR's part. I don't think saintly wizards in JKR's world kill evil wizards.



katayoun - Oct 26, 2003 8:13 pm (#362 of 412)

thank you so much for your support Jim The Potty.yours as well Kip Carter.actually I`m not HE i`m a girl. by the way thanx again . I will try my best in future.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Oct 27, 2003 10:43 am (#363 of 412)

Perhaps Snape will be the one to do it. I think that he has to do something to redeem his past actions- and he has saved Harry numerous times throughout, despite his loathing of him.



A-is-for-Amy - Oct 29, 2003 1:52 pm (#364 of 412)

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, (and if so, point me in the right direction, please!) but I was re-reading the whole Dumbledore/Voldemort battle scene, and I have a question. Harry is trapped behind this statue, and when Voldemort disappears, he begins to come out, but Dumbledore yells for him to stop. Harry see no reason for Dumbledore to seem scared as it is just him, Dumbledore and Bellatrix there now. THEN, he's in pain and Voldemort is posessing him, and speaking through Harry's own mouth. My question is this: Was Voldemort just posessing Harry's mind, or was his body entwined somehow with Harry's? If (as was my first thought) he was merely posessing Harry's mind, where did his body go? Harry thinks about Sirius and Voldemort withdraws, unable to stand the love, and then the next thing Harry knows he's flat on his face and there are people everywhere claiming to have seen Voldemort.

Thoughts, anyone?



schoff - Oct 30, 2003 12:42 am (#365 of 412)

I've thought about that too, Amy. I have a thought, but no idea if it's even near correct...

I think maybe Voldie can become "invisible" or mist-like--like he was pre-GoF. In that form, he can probably possess others, like the snake. If you've ever seen the movie "Ghost" when Patrick Swayze takes over Whoopi's body at the end so that he can talk to Demi Moore. Sort of like that. Then when he separated from Harry, he regained his solid form.

If you want to continue on with this (which I would be happy to do) maybe we should move it to the "Voldemort" thread.



S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2003 11:39 am (#366 of 412)

Was Harry possessing the snake too, along with Voldemort, or was he possessing the snake through Voldemort? I think the answer to this question could answer the question of whether Voldemort was inside Harry's body at the MoM or whether he kept a solid form. Ron pointed out tha Harry never left his bed, so, assuming that he was co-possessing the snake, possession is purely a mind thing, and Voldemort would have kept his body at the MoM. Harry may simply not have been able to see it from where he was behind the statue. Dumbledore said, "Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him." (OotP37, pg828, US) I'm not entirely sure how he meant by this statement. Did he mean that Voldemort was trying to get him to kill Harry because Voldy was actually inside him? If so, this points to Voldemort actually losing his solid form. Or, did he mean that Voldy was trying to get him to kill Harry because they were mentally connected. Now my question is, what happens when you kill someone who is mentally possessing someone else, and vise-a-versa? Do they both die? Voldemort did say (while using Harry's mouth to speak), "Kill me now, Dumbledore....If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy...." (OotP36, pg 816, US). So, maybe he thought he could trick Dumbledore into killing Harry, because he couldn't get to Voldemort's physical form, in the hope of killing Voldemort because they were mentally connected. That would point to it being a purely mental power. Hm, I dearly hope I'm actually making sense here. Anyway, I think it is a mental possession and so Voldemort did have a physical form there somewhere but that Dumbledore couldn't have gotten to or seen it....



Third guy from the left - Oct 30, 2003 12:16 pm (#367 of 412)

I took this as a purely mental possession. Voldie's consciousness would have been inside Harry's body. His own body would have been stashed somewhere safe. It would have still been breathing and would have been alive, but it would have essentially been soulless. (Suddenly the Dementors spring to mind, but that would be a tangent) Essentially, what I think is that if Harry died and Voldie was still inside him, Voldie would die too. Or at least that's what Voldie was hoping Dumbledore would think.

To be bad and quote a television show: Lyta Alexander, Babylon 5 telepath, regarding deathbed scans: "As the person dies, you feel part of yourself slipping away too - like you lose a piece of your own soul. A part of you goes cold and empty. You are never the same after that."



Peregrine - Oct 30, 2003 1:34 pm (#368 of 412)

Well I doubt Voldemort’s body stayed in the MOM while he was possessing Harry. If it had, couldn’t Dumbledore have just destroyed the body (like a shell) leaving Voldemort a mist again with nothing to return to? I think his body just ceases to exist while he’s inside something/someone else.



S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2003 2:01 pm (#369 of 412)

You might take a look at my last post Peregrine. I think his body was indeed present when he possessed Harry, but I think it was either stashed somewhere where Dumbledore couldn't have gotten to it or it was invisible in some way so Dumbledore couldn't see it. That way, he would've had, at least in Voldemort's mind, no choice but to attack Harry's body in the hopes of killing Voldemort.....



Emily - Oct 30, 2003 3:23 pm (#370 of 412)

I think that you lose your body while you posess someone else. if that person dies you would just be kicked out, if that makes sense, and regain your body. The reason that Harry is still in bed (according to Ron) when he sees Mr. Weasley being attacked is that he was seeing it through Voldemort, who was posesing the snake. Harry doesn't loose his form at any otherr time that he sees into Voldemort's mind, so he wouldn't now. Of course, this is just my interpretation, so start slamming!



freshwater - Oct 31, 2003 12:10 pm (#371 of 412)

Hi, all! I'm recently registered with the forum and have not posted before so feel free to correct me or direct me as needed. Also, I just read through the entire Harry Potter thread and my head is swimming with so many of your fascinating theories and insights....just wanted to throw out a couple of ideas and see what folks think:

I, too, was bothered by Harry's grouchiness and even rudeness in OoP, but agree with many previous posts that JKR has laid plenty of foundation for that kind of behavior and emotionality, not the least of which is teenage-hood and the tremendously negative peer pressure he is under, with most students suspecting him of foul deeds or believing the Daily Prophet's inuendoes that he is a lying, attention-seeking nutter. I'm thinking that in book 6 JKR may leave the well-worn track of "how does Harry cope with all the negative aspects of his celebrity" to "how will Harry cope with the overwhelming expectations of his peers for him to continue in the hero role". In other words, it would be interesting to see how Harry might respond to too much positive attention and adoration from his peers...on a big scale, not just Colin Creevy's hero-worship.

Also, it's been hinted that some important character will die in book 6...I think it may be Dumbledore. That would require Harry to be even more self-sufficient in book 7 as he is led up to the ultimate confronation with LV, and without the "saved at the 11th hour" possibility that currently exsists with Dumbledore alive.

Finally, I have to believe that Harry and Ginny will marry in the end, as will Ron and Hermione. The successful and joyful marriage of Harry and Ginny would be the ultimate fullfillment of the lives of Lily and James Potter which were cut short by LV's evil. I think JKR has left too many hints about the similarities of the Ron/Hermione relationship to the Molly/Arthur Weasley relationship to doubt the final outcome. Also, these two marriages would entwine these four characters very deeply for (dare I dream of it?) books 8-87.

Any thoughts?



S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2003 1:40 pm (#372 of 412)

Hey freshwater. Welcome to the Forum!

You might try some of that last post on the 'Ship (relationship) thread. We currently have an arguement going on between those voting for Harry/Hermione and Harry/Ginny (as well as Ron/Hermione, of course).... Go jump in!



freshwater - Oct 31, 2003 7:54 pm (#373 of 412)

Thanks, S.E! I'll do that! :-)



Donna Bright - Nov 1, 2003 5:34 am (#374 of 412)

I too think LV's body was safely tucked away somewhere when he possessed Harry. After all, he had just gotten it back. He would do nothing to risk that precious commodity. He knows what it is like to be without one for 14 years. He would not risk being without again.

That being said, I do not think he will attempt to possess Harry again. Everyone is well aware that LV has the power to do so. Even though Harry is now grieving and still angry, if LV attempted to do so, Harry is on his guard. Also, when LV attempted to possess Harry he ran head long into the "power that Harry has that he knows not". It is that power which drove him out of Harry's body.

JKR has used alternate words and euphemisms to describe it. But there is no doubt in my mind that that power is Love. She told us it was a surge of emotion so strong that drove LV out of his body. Emotion for Sirius. Harry loved and still loves Sirius. LV tried to use that to get Harry to sacrifice his own existence to rid Harry from his plans. Not knowing that kind of love, LV did not realize what a power it was. I suspect that this power LV discovered in Harry will somehow play itself out in the upcoming books.

It is quite a power. LV want all power, and will try to learn what that power is and how he can use it.

Of course, I could be wrong...

D



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 1, 2003 8:09 am (#375 of 412)

I, too, think that she is referring to love ( I think she used the words Human Heart), but I was confused as to why that door is kept locked at all times.

I can envision a sequence of events in which Harry tries to posess Voldemort and, well, Love him to death... but I don't think it will be successful.

I also think that Harry will have to tell Ron and Hermione (soon rather than later) about the prophecy, knowing that he will need their help in whatever plans that are to be made concerning it's outcome.



Sinister Kittens - Nov 2, 2003 7:51 am (#376 of 412)

Amy, I agree that Harry will tell Ron & Hermione eventually but he has never been to forthcoming with his feelings. I think he may welcome the break from the Wizarding World (probably briefly though judging from what happened during his last visit with the Dursleys), and might take the time to reflect and think things through before he even mentions it to anyone.



Rich - Nov 3, 2003 12:30 am (#377 of 412)

I think that Voldemort would have kept his body whilst possessing Harry. DD says to Harry in one of the books something along the lines of "I have other ways of becoming invisible" (referring to not using an invisibility cloak). Anything DD can do Voldemort can do - dare I say it - better.

Harry will have to eventually tell Ron and Hermione about the Prophecy, but it may be a matter of time (we've seen how reluctant he can be to tell people what's on his mind). The members of the Order most probably know about it so I suppose it's fair to say they'll learn about it in time.



Keaton Yale - Nov 4, 2003 10:07 am (#378 of 412)

Hi. I am new to this site.



mischa fan - Nov 4, 2003 12:21 pm (#379 of 412)

Hi Keaton Yale, welcome to the forum, please go to Haggis and Irn Bru "-- Tell About Yourself (new)" 8/29/03 11:38am and introduce yourself to the forum.



Mad Goose - Nov 8, 2003 7:13 pm (#380 of 412)

Reading GoF again. Just wanted to mention how humble Harry is with reference to the Weaslies financial situation and his own. I would rather like to see him buy his own stuff from now on though. It may have less of an impact on Ron. I wonder if there are any houses in Hogsmead and could Harry buy or rent one? Or possibly live in the Leaky Cauldron's Inn? I know about needed to go home each year and stuff, but I think I'd stay at the Dursleys a bit then leave like in PoA.



Mad Goose - Nov 8, 2003 7:14 pm (#381 of 412)

I'd also like to add to the threads first topic. I see Harry becoming much more dedicated at everything he does and taking everything more seriously. I'm sure he'll blame himself quite a bit. I also see him taking no truck from Dudley.



Hem Hem - Nov 8, 2003 8:45 pm (#382 of 412)

The Vote thread got me thinking...and I have a new idea, one that I don't remember hearing before, and although it isn't exactly what I'd expect to see, it's okay to be surprized, right? Anyways, here goes:

Will Harry die at the end of Book 7? On the one hand, having Harry die would make a lot of readers very upset, and that might not be the most wonderful thing...but on the other hand, if Harry were to survive, JKR would forever have to live with the pressure of writing another "epilogue" book.

Now, what do we know about the JKR's world view of how you become ghosts? Not too much, but we do know that we will learn the entire scoop of how one becomes a ghost in book 7...and that the nature of one becomeing a ghost will become a very important feature of the final book.

In the final book, we know that Harry will defeat Voldemort, or Voldemort will defeat Harry. Theories have been presented about Voldemort becoming a ghost, should he end up dying.

Could it be that Harry will end the series as a ghost?



Susurro Notities - Nov 8, 2003 9:02 pm (#383 of 412)

Interesting thought HemHem but it is my understanding that one chooses to be a ghost and Nearly Headless Nick's regret over becoming a ghost makes the choice seem unappealing. I don't think Harry would choose to become a ghost because those he wants to be with aren't ghosts; His mother, father, and I suspect Sirius.



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2003 10:29 pm (#384 of 412)

Maybe we'll learn about the process because Harry'll die and not become a ghost. I agree with what Susurro said about him wanting to be with his family. Plus, he doesn't seem to have Voldemort's view of death. Perhaps Luna will play a role in his making the other choice (consider her comments about the voices behind the veil). Unfortunately, unless Voldemort somehow dies with him, this idea would mean that Voldy wins, which I don't think will happen.... Frankly, I think it's far more important to JKR that her story's theme survive in tact than her being able to escape the pressure of writing another "epilogue" book.....



schoff - Nov 9, 2003 12:32 am (#385 of 412)

Since this subject has come up, I'll put my two knuts in:

I am suspicious as to whether Harry can actually die, especially by poison. He has cheated Death an awful lot of times, even when he was physically assaulted (ie Voldie's first attack, the confrontation for the Sorceror's Stone, and the Basilik [Yes, I know Fawkes can be attributed to this, but I'm not 100% convinced Fawkes was needed to save Harry's life from the poison, just the injury]).

I am hesitant to bring this up, but I thought The Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter made a good case that JKR stongly hinted Harry can't be poisoned when it dissected GoF. There was quite a lot of circumstantial evidence. Snape spends the entire year talking about poisons. Harry forgets to add the Bezoar, an ingredient that protects you from poison. Snape is interrupted when trying to poison Harry, so we never know how he would react. Plus, evidentally Harry was poisoned by the Aracumantula in the Maze, but was not affected by it. Not to mention Voldie's speech reinforcing his ability to survive Death--and the CS/OoP revelation that Voldie transferred most of his powers to Harry. Finally, of course, the many interrupted AK spells aimed at him.

Harry's faced and escaped Death so many times already, that I wonder what it would take to actually kill him.



freshwater - Nov 9, 2003 8:13 am (#386 of 412)

Good point, Schoff...I'd never put all that together before (I'm reading "The Official Guide..." now, but have not gotten as far as book 4). I wonder if the same is true of Dumbledore, given that he's at least 150 years old...or do great wizards just normally live far longer than muggles?



S.E. Jones - Nov 9, 2003 11:35 am (#387 of 412)

Plus, evidentally Harry was poisoned by the Aracumantula in the Maze, but was not affected by it.

Um, what makes you think it poisoned him? Also, keep in mind the Unofficial Guide is most definately unofficial. We've, in the past, disproved some of it's ideas and speculations. Besides, I think the prophecy is worded the way it is to show that either Harry or Voldy will kill the other, not that niether can be killed by someone else. Basically, once one of them's dead, all bets are off.....



schoff - Nov 9, 2003 12:03 pm (#388 of 412)
Edited by Nov 9, 2003 12:04 pm

Um, what makes you think it poisoned him? Also, keep in mind the Unofficial Guide is most definately unofficial

Acromantula: "...its pincers, which produce a distinctive clicking sound when the Acromantula is excited or angry; and a poisonous secretion." (FTAWTFT US1)

...his leg connected with the pincers and next moment he was in excruciating pain....He could see some sort of thick, gluey secretion from the spider's pincers on his torn robes. (GoF 33 US632)

And yes, SE, I know the Guide is unofficial. I give it as much weight as a printed post. That doesn't mean some of its ideas don't have value, and I think this one does. Although what it means for the final climax, I don't know.



S.E. Jones - Nov 9, 2003 12:27 pm (#389 of 412)

All it says is a poisonous secretion, there are several insects whose poison doesn't do more than cause pain or cause the muscles they bite to stiffen, thus preventing the prey from getting away. Also, keep in mind that the poisons all work at different speeds, so it could be a slow acting poison. Fawkes heeled his leg after he got back to Dumbledore's office, so we may never have seen the poison working.

P.S. Thanks for pointing out that citation to me, schoff....



schoff - Nov 9, 2003 12:43 pm (#390 of 412)
Edited by Nov 9, 2003 12:52 pm

Fawkes didn't heal Harry until at least an hour later (although I'm betting it's closer to two). That's a pretty slow moving poison in my book, especially for a monster that needs to stop fast moving prey (ie flies). Even if the poison didn't kill but only paralyzed (or something less), it still seems to me that Harry was unaffected by it. I know adrenaline could account for the time spent in the graveyard, but not for Crouch's confession, or DD's office.



S.E. Jones - Nov 9, 2003 4:45 pm (#391 of 412)

Why would a giant spider eat flies? Wouldn't it eat something bigger, like say deer, or an elephant or something?

...his leg connected with the pincers and next moment he was in excruciating pain....He could see some sort of thick, gluey secretion from the spider's pincers on his torn robes. (GoF 33 US632)

I didn't think the pinchers actually pierced his leg, just tore at some muscles. Also, the secretion was on "his torn robes" so we don't really know that any of the poison got into any cuts....



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 9, 2003 7:02 pm (#392 of 412)

Also, wasn't Harry affectedby the Basilisk venom when the fang pierced him arm? I have not read this unofficial guide book that keeps getting referred to, so there may have been an answer to this.



Marie E. - Nov 9, 2003 7:23 pm (#393 of 412)

As I consult the set of books I keep by the computer for just such an occasion: CoS American version Chapter 17 page 320 "He gripped the fang that was spreading poison through his body and wrenched it out of his arm."

Harry's vision immediately becomes blurry and he gets dizzy and lies down. Sounds to me as though the poison goes though Harry's body pretty fast. Just after he lies down, he feels Fawkes' head rest on his wounded arm. Harry starts to recover just as Tom Riddle is taunting him about dying.



timrew - Nov 9, 2003 11:43 pm (#394 of 412)

Maybe there are giant flies in the Forbidden Forest.....



S.E. Jones - Nov 10, 2003 6:54 am (#395 of 412)

Tim, all I have to say is eew!.... As you can tell, I don't care for flies....



SJ Rand - Nov 10, 2003 11:25 am (#396 of 412)

Hi folks, another new poster here. Pardon if my comments seem rather late, as I've been in read-only mode for a few days.

Harry's morality:

Snape and the Pensieve:

As others have said, he wanted to find out what was being hidden from him. In fact, it turned out there were some rather large things being hidden from him by Dumbledore. Plus, he's the one whose life has been in danger from LV four times in four years and the Order, other than Sirius, feel he's too young for them to share information with him about the person who wants him dead?

Harry has shown amazing self restraint with Snape, who has yet to miss an opportunity to harass and degrade the boy. Remember that this is a boy who has had to fight for his life. It would be easy for someone who is used to fighting for his life to just strike out at an attacker, even when that attack is psychological. Harry doesn't.

His overall attitude:

In addition to the annual attempts at killing him, he's been under constant verbal and physical attack since about midway into his fourth term, and it doesn't stop until the end of his fifth term, by which time Sirius is dead.

At first I also thought his grouchiness was overdone, until I remembered the beating he'd taken in GoF, from The Daily Prophet articles and the students' reactions to them, to that battle with Voldemort. Then, finally, Dumbledore forces him back to the Dursleys when he'd anticipated spending the summer with the Weasleys. This is at a time when he most needs to have understanding people around him: his classmate was murdered, he barely escaped death himself, and he now knows that Voldemort is back and at full power.

Rather than getting to be among caring people, he's back in the derisive atmosphere of 4 Privet Drive, and cut off from all information, while thinking that Voldemort could resume the attacks at any moment.

Regarding the Prophesy:

I like the elegance of the idea of banishing the evil "Dark Lord" persona out of Tom Swift, but I think it means literal death. I expect that Voldemort will end up killing himself by accident while trying to kill Harry. That would eliminate him while keeping Harry from becoming a murderer.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 10, 2003 12:49 pm (#397 of 412)

Welcom to the forum, SJ! Harry really has had annual attempts on his life, hasn't he? It's a wonder he looks forward to returning to school each year isn't it?

I'm pretty sure you meant Tom Riddle (Tom Swift is another character entirely! :Smile:) That would be an interesting twist, but I don't think that Voldemort could accidentally kill himself because of the line, 'either must die at the hand of the other'. I'm sure that no matter how it ends, most of us will be surprised.



SJ Rand - Nov 10, 2003 1:19 pm (#398 of 412)

Thank you, Amy.

>>I'm pretty sure you meant Tom Riddle (Tom Swift is another character entirely!<<<

Ouch. That was a nice way to introduce myself, wasn't it? Yes, I did mean Riddle. :-)

>>but I don't think that Voldemort could accidentally kill himself because of the line, 'either must die at the hand of the other'.<<<

True. Going well into hypothetical fantasy land, though, if Harry had a reflective shield on himself at the time Voldemort cast a spell that led to his death, whose "hand" would it have been? Voldemort cast the curse, but the force that knocked him backward into that handy lava pit wouldn't have hit LV if Harry hadn't caused it to be reflected it back at him.

That was the type of accident I was thinking about. A handy rebound or swapping of consciousness at just the right moment.



Naomi Boyer - Nov 2, 2003 3:59 pm (#399 of 412)

Could Harry be a Metamorphmagus?

I've read some threads in this forum that touch on Harry possibly being a metamorphmagus, but they mostly have to do with Tonks. I would like to hear other people's opinions on Harry's possible gift. Would anybody care to join?



Catherine - Oct 29, 2003 9:51 am (#400 of 412)

I don't think Harry is a metamorphmagus.

It's possible, of course, given that he does grow his hair back after a terrible haircut, but that sounded more like the "emotional" wandless magic that Harry did that he couldn't control and couldn't explain. In my opinion, the hair-growing incident falls into the same category of the shrinking sweater, the blue wig, the jump onto the roof, and the disappearing glass at the zoo. I think he was so embarrassed and worried that he did magic on his hair without meaning to.

This might be slightly off topic, but I have wondered, since there seems to be two people in the Black line (Sirius as an animagus and Tonks as a metamorphmagus) who have this ability if Draco or Belletrix or Narcissa or Andromeda or Regulus have/had these gifts.



S.E. Jones - Oct 29, 2003 10:09 am (#401 of 412)

Naomi, this topic has been brought up before on the "Harry Potter" thread. As we are in the practice of trying to prevent duplicate threads, due to the sheer size of our forum, you may want to try to post your observations on that thread. Before starting a new thread, it is usually best to try out our wonderful Search (found in the teal tool bar) function to see if the idea has been discussed anywhere else. Have fun on the Forum!



Naomi Boyer - Oct 29, 2003 10:38 am (#402 of 412)

I did do the search, and didn't find any thread that dealt with this particular subject specifically. Thanks for the heads up, though.



S.E. Jones - Oct 29, 2003 10:52 am (#403 of 412)

Yes, I saw that part of your post, actually. The thing is that we have so many posts every day that we can easily be burried under too many threads. That's why we try to group topics into the various existing threads, just as we try to group threads into folders. In that way, topics for discussion are much easier to find and relate to other topics about the same subject. As I said, the possibility of Harry being a Metamorphmagus could easily be discussed on the "Harry" thread because the topic deals mainly with Harry.



popkin - Oct 29, 2003 12:52 pm (#404 of 412)
Edited by Oct 29, 2003 12:59 pm

Maybe this post should be renamed "Who is a metamorphmagus besides Tonks?" I think someone is. It seems to be JKR's style to publicly introduce a character with a special ability, so that later on we won't say, "I didn't know people in the wizarding world could do that!" when a charcter has been secretly using that special ability for some time.

Cases in point:
# McGonnagal is a registered animagus. Rita Skeeter and the marauders turn out to have been unregistered animagi.
# Hermione, Harry and Ron use a polyjuce potion. Barty Crouch, Jr. secretly uses polyjuice to disguise himself as Mad Eye Moody.
# Memory charms are introduced in SS. Lockhart has been using memory charms all along to steal the credit for others' work.
# Parseltongue is introduced in SS. Riddle was a secret parseltongue (and heir of Slytherin).
# Ron pays Harry for the omnioculars with wizard gold, and Harry already knows it will disappear after a while. That way it gets mentioned twice before we find out Ludo paid off his debts in wizard gold - not exactly a special ability, but we were forwarned just the same.

My mind has gone completely blank, but you get the idea. Someone besides Tonks is probably a metamorphmagus, and there's a good possibility that we've already met the person.

On second thought, maybe all of this belongs in the "When will we see that again?" thread.



Naomi Boyer - Oct 29, 2003 3:46 pm (#405 of 412)

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the reply, Popkin. I loved it! Very well written.



Ladybug220 - Oct 29, 2003 5:16 pm (#406 of 412)

Popkin, I think you mean Leprechaun gold not wizard gold



schoff - Oct 29, 2003 11:09 pm (#407 of 412)

We've also talked about this on The Hidden Meaning in Hair.



popkin - Oct 30, 2003 9:04 am (#408 of 412)

You're right Ladybug220, I did mean Leprechaun gold.



Blast - Nov 2, 2003 3:59 pm (#409 of 412)

I'm sure that wizard gold,leprechangold,or good old muggle money all disappears eventually!



Dan Wells - Nov 10, 2003 7:04 pm (#410 of 412)

Hi!

I've been bugged about the idea of Harry being a murderer ever since he himself mused over the issue at the end of the book.

Let's look at two scenes: 1: Harry is attacked by death eaters and Voldemort. Using skill, bravery, luck, and several bricks he kills them all, including Voldemort.

2: Harry is walking down the street and sees Voldemort, looking away from Harry and clearly unaware that Harry is there. Summing up all the rage and frustration that a sixteen-year-old can harness (rather a lot!) he casts an AK spell squarely into Voldemort's back, killing him instantly.

Every moral, ethical, and legal code in the history of mankind has allowed lethal force in self defense. Scene number one is not and cannot be murder in the legal sense (or in the sense that most people would use the word).

Scene number 2 would be murder. With no immediate provocation, and shooting Voldemort in the back, no less.

I cannot see Harry committing anything like scene number 2.

Harry will not murder anyone, but he may very well kill Lord Voldemort. And, to be honest I could forgive Harry feeling a certain satisfaction afterward.

Please, the word murder is too specific for the problem that Harry faces.

Just my 2 knuts.

Dan Wells



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 10, 2003 7:27 pm (#411 of 412)

I agree. They are in a war, and deaths during a war are considered casualties. HOWEVER, that doesn't change the fact that if Harry is feeling that it would be murder for him to kill Voldemort, that changes things, because if he believes it, it makes it murder in his eyes. Does that make sense?



Susurro Notities - Nov 10, 2003 7:53 pm (#412 of 412)
Edited by Nov 10, 2003 7:54 pm

Nicely presented Dan.
...because if he believes it, it makes it murder in his eyes. I think you are right Amy but I also believe that with guidance Harry could learn to understand righteous anger.




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Harry Potter 2 (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Apr 25, 2006)

Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:23 am

Kip Carter - Nov 11, 2003 3:29 am
Edited May 2, 2006 8:10 am

I changed the title of this thread from Harry Potter #2 to Harry Potter and changed the title of the linked thread from Harry Potter #1 to Harry Potter (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 10, 2003) when I moved the linked thread to the Archived folder. - Kip

Harry Potter is the main character in the series and because of this, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate. The first thread Harry Potter (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 10, 2003) accumulated 412 messages in the 74 days since we returned to the World Crossing (WX) system.

The original thread had 398 messages on November 10,2003 with the last message that day being Post #398 by SJ Rand. In an effort to consolidate some similiar messages on another thread, Could Harry be a Metamorphmagus? was moved to the end of the original thread and the 14 messages of that thread start at Post #399 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.

The creation of this new thread allows those who care to look back and continue what wwas being discussed in a logical way without having to manuever around the 14 added messages. This will also allow for those interested in the moved 14 messages to now logical enter their thoughts into the new conversation.

Some of you may find this tedious and some of you, I hope, will find this a good working solution to the original huge thread. Regardless of how each of you handle this new thread depends on our working together. The nature of a forum is that new people come in and are faced with this huge number of messages to read and are somewhat intimidated by the amount that is needed to read before they can add their thoughts and ideas. This has caused many messages to start to rehash issues that some feel have already been discussed and problems occur. I hope my closing out the original huge thread and providing the links in this new thread will allow a new peaceful discussion of Harry Potter to continue with new life and no preconceived ideas of what needs to be discussed.

The first message to this new thread will set the tone of the thread for future posters. Let try to make this work.

For those who care about the original thread with its added messages, I have changed its status to permanent (for how long it remains in that status depends on how this thread progresses) and have placed it at the bottom of this folder for those who want to read those the various posts.


  INDEX HARRY POTTER 2

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Last edited by Mona on Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:58 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Mona
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Post  Mona on Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:29 am



Killian - Nov 11, 2003 12:41 pm (#1 of 2971)

Three or four?

Here's something I noticed in an interview with J. K. Rowling:

Harry is not a good enough wizard yet to even attempt to take on Voldemort as wizard to wizard. He’s escaped him three, four times if you count the encounter with Tom Riddle. - J.K. Rowling

Here's the link if you would like to read it for yourself:

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Now, at the end of Book 5 Dumbledore mentions how Harry is different from his parents and Neville's in that he managed to defeat Voldemort four times already, but in the interview Rowling initially says three but then quickly changes it to four. While this may be nothing, I think it is. If you think about it, Harry has only faced the true Voldemort three times, not four, and she even says in the interview "four if" and if is the key word there. So while this may not be relevant at all, I think that it may be considering that she originally only said three. So what will happen when Harry faces Voldemort for what will actually be the fourth time?



Jim the Potty - Nov 11, 2003 12:31 pm (#2 of 2971)

Harry has escaped Voldy again since then, they met at the end of OotP



schoff - Nov 11, 2003 12:39 pm (#3 of 2971)
Edited by Nov 11, 2003 12:39 pm

1. Halloween 1981--when Voldie is defeated the first time.
2. P/SS during the confrontation in front of the Mirror of Erised.
(3. CoS from Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets.)
4. GoF in the Graveyard.
5. OoP in the MoM.
DD makes the statement after Harry's return from the MoM in OoP. JKR made her statement on June 26th, before OoP came out. At that point, Harry had only escaped Voldie 3 times (4 if you count Riddle). When DD makes his statement, Harry has escaped 4 times (5 if you count Riddle, which apparently DD isn't).



Jim the Potty - Nov 11, 2003 12:41 pm (#4 of 2971)

Its amazing how people can say the same thing as me yet make seem so much more thought-out and persuasive...



eggplant - Nov 12, 2003 10:08 am (#5 of 2971)

To my counting Voldemort tried to kill Harry 5 times and failed 5 times, once when he was a year old, and then again at the end of book, 1,2,4 and 5. And of course book 2 counts, Voldemort is after all just Tom Riddle’s stage name.

Eggplant



Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 10:33 am (#6 of 2971)

It's interesting though that JKR made the distinction herself- between 'Voldemort' and Riddle.



S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 3:19 pm (#7 of 2971)

Question: If you can see more in a Pensieve than what you consciously remember (case in point, Harry saw James write "LE" on his paper while in Snape's memory, but there's no way Snape could've actually seen that), could Harry pull a memory of his past (say, the night his parents died, for instance) from his own head, place it in a pensieve and then see what happened?



Denise P. - Nov 12, 2003 3:50 pm (#8 of 2971)

Well, if you buy into regressive hypnosis, I would think it would stand to reason that one could pull a memory out and see it clearly in the Pensieve. If Harry was able to do that, it may answer some questions. He would have to keep in mind though that what he saw was not necessarily factual, just how he remembered it.



timrew - Nov 12, 2003 3:56 pm (#9 of 2971)

Good thought, Sarah!

But considering all that Harry's been through, should witnessing the deaths of his Mother and Father be something that he should see?

I think it would be something he would have to learn how to do alone; because I'm sure none of his friends (including Dumbledore) would help him with that one!



S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 3:57 pm (#10 of 2971)

That's why I put the example of Snape's memory in there, he couldn't have remembered what James was writing on his paper because he was sitting several rows back. I agree with those who said that a Pensieve shows you what actually happened (sort of like what your sensory memory takes in), taking out the bias and allowing you to see trends (as Dumbledore said). If that's the case, it would be showing the actual event as it took place. We know that he remembers some because he remembered the green light of the AK curse and Voldemort laughing, as well as his parents voices (when the Dementors were around), so I think the memory is there to pull out....

EDIT: Oops, didn't see you there, Tim. I was responding to Denise, btw. I was figuring that he may need to know because something about the way Lily died may be important in the future... Or something along those lines....



Susurro Notities - Nov 12, 2003 6:09 pm (#11 of 2971)

Never thought of Harry's memories in the Pensive S.E. - wonderful idea. I would be concerned as timrew is for Harry's welfare. Could Dumbledore look at Harry's memories to see what they reveal? Of course it would be difficult to remove them and then deny Harry's right to see the memories.



Viola Intonada - Nov 12, 2003 6:49 pm (#12 of 2971)

I can see Harry using the pensieve to watch Voldemort attack him in an attempt to try and figure out why he survived. I can especially see Harry doing this if anything happens to Dumbledore. Harry may want to see what kind of enchantment his mother placed on him in order to figure out how much protection she gave him and what kind of protection he still has since Voldemort shared his blood.



::StinkerBell:: - Nov 12, 2003 7:23 pm (#13 of 2971)

wait~ was it Lilys love that saved Harry? Or was it the prophecy? I'm confused, because DD told harry in the first books that it was Lilys love that saved Harry from dying, and now it is because of the prophecy....



LilyP - Nov 12, 2003 7:44 pm (#14 of 2971)

The prophecy doesn't have power. It is simply someone's view of future events. Lily saved Harry. The prophecy simply talked about it. It is our link to past and future events.



::StinkerBell:: - Nov 12, 2003 7:46 pm (#15 of 2971)

But it talked about being marked as an equal... blah blah blah, But if Voldemort tries to murder some a kid, and the parent is willing to risk their life, would the kid survive?



LilyP - Nov 12, 2003 8:02 pm (#16 of 2971)

That's the tricky thing about prophecies. It was talking about this specific situation, in a vague way. A prophecy doesn't give specifics - like the exact who, when, where, etc. But, it gives enough information to make it clear when it happens. In this case Trelawney (or the-powers-that-be through Trelawney) had a vision of a situation that was going to occur. They gave the heads up (message through Trelawney) to Dumbledore. There could have been a half dozen families killed in this way within a few days, but the prophecy was referring to one particular family (IMO the Potters).



schoff - Nov 13, 2003 12:15 am (#17 of 2971)

LilyP: The prophecy doesn't have power. It is simply someone's view of future events. Lily saved Harry

Hmmm....gonna disagree with you here LilyP. I don't think Lily was the only thing saving Harry that night. You and LongLiveSnuffles might be interested in the following threads, they're pretty good reads:

Lily Potter dying for Harry
Harry wasn’t special when Voldemort tried to kill him
Possibly Why did Voldemort offer to save Lily?

and a whole host of other threads that I can't quite seem to find right now....(I *know* there was one on the Annex I can't find!)



phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 7:55 am (#18 of 2971)

I think you also have to take into account the level of magic within the protecting parent. We have seen that magic is sort of an inherent force that cannot only be channeled, but exists inside of a person. At the end of OoP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he has a large concentration of a certain power resides inside of him.

We have also seen that there are Muggles, Squibs, Wizards, etc. All of them exhibit certain levels of inherent Magic. So I would assume that the parent sacrificing themselves would not be enough, they would have to contain a certain level of inherent magic.



Killian - Nov 15, 2003 10:47 am (#19 of 2971)

So I would assume that the parent sacrificing themselves would not be enough, they would have to contain a certain level of inherent magic.

That makes sense. In OotP, page 835 of the American version, Dumbledore says "You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated--to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you."

Since Dumbledore refers to it as an ancient magic, then I think it's safe to assume that the parent sacrificing themselves for the child must have had a bit of magic in them in order to do so, or that there might be something of magic that they would have to do previously to this,since I find it hard to believe that only Harry's mother would be willing to sacrifice herself for her child when other parents and their children must have died as well.



SJ Rand - Nov 15, 2003 11:20 am (#20 of 2971)

Killian :

I'm sure that Dumbledore's reference to "an ancient magic" means love. It's just a different way of saying "the power of a mother's love for her child", the stuff of poetry and legend.

Her love was what amplified her magical ability, similar to stories about a mother lifting a truck with one hand to free a trapped child. It's very sweet, but I felt it was a detraction from the implied magical power of the child who survived Voldemort.

>since I find it hard to believe that only Harry's mother would be willing to sacrifice herself for her child when other parents and their children must have died as well.

The circumstances would be different. In this case he was there for the purpose of killing Harry, and was so anxious to do it that he went for the child before he'd taken out the mother. In other cases where there were children, he would have just killed the parents and left the children for last, or just left the children alone since they were no threat to him.



LilyP - Nov 16, 2003 11:41 pm (#21 of 2971)

Schoff- I'm confused about what you were trying to say. You think the Prophecy had power over saving Harry?

The prophecy, itself, is a vision. Nothing more. I agreed with everything the links you supplied said. There might be more to the protection than just Lily dying for Harry. It's just not coming from the prophecy.

According to Miriam Webster's dictionary, prophecy means: 1 : an inspired utterance of a prophet 2 : the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose 3 : a prediction of something to come

I was a theology major in college, and I dealt with prophecies all the time. They don't have power in them. They are simply divine/inspired declarations.

Maybe there is some confusion to which post my response was referring. I was responding to a question by Snuffles (now StinkerBell) about which saved Harry, Lily's love or the prophecy. My response is that a prophecy can't save someone. It is only describing the actions that will save that person. The fact that a prophecy exists tells us that it is very significant - worth bothering a seer about. As for what or how Lily saved Harry, it is not specific and I am not ready to speculate on that yet. I'm still mulling that over myself.



Donna Bright - Nov 17, 2003 4:11 am (#22 of 2971)

All this discussion about prophesy. I would like to weigh in on this subject.

A prophesy is just what it says it is, prophesy. What the seer foresaw happening. It doesn't necessarily have to come true. In canon doesn't McGonnagal say that Divination is a very imprecise brand of magic? I am sure she was referring to more than Professor Trelawney's brand of divination. Now before everyone starts ranting at me, let me explain.

It is significant that DD says it's the choices that people make that determine the outcome of things, not their abilities. I think that those words will come back in a very significant way. Harry still has the option to choose to act on the prophesy or not.

While I have no doubt that Harry will take the words of the prophesy very seriously, they will definitely affect his choices, I do believe there is a way around Harry thinking he must become a murderer.

Words are very significant to the story. No where does the prophesy say that Harry must kill Voldemort. Oh, I know it says neither can live while the other survives. But it also says that the one marked by Voldemort as his equal will vanquish him, not kill him, vanquish him. Vanquish can have many meanings. While I do believe that Voldemort will die, I do have my doubts that Harry will be the one to kill him. Also, the word live can have different connotations.

When I first read the prophesy, I did not think that it meant literally stay alive. I interpreted it as having a life, being able to grow and have more to life. Harry really hasn't been able to live a "normal" life. He hasn't really gotten the chance to experience all life has to offer.

That is just one of many interpretations one can put on the prophesy.

Of course, I could be wrong...

D



Weeny Owl - Nov 17, 2003 8:49 am (#23 of 2971)

Donna - "No where does the prophesy say that Harry must kill Voldemort."

It does say, "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

I do think JKR might be able to find a way of working around it so Harry doesn't have to literally kill Voldie.



Warty Harris - Nov 17, 2003 11:18 am (#24 of 2971)

I think Harry will kill Voldemort. He was almost put in the Slytherin House. Perhaps the hat saw something in Harry.....Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends.....

oh wait...this should go in the sorting hat thread.



SJ Rand - Nov 17, 2003 12:33 pm (#25 of 2971)

Sorry my posts are so long again today.

Weeny Owl: >>I do think JKR might be able to find a way of working around it so Harry doesn't have to literally kill Voldie.

That's possible, but I've been thinking about the whole discussion about Harry not murdering someone.

As others have discussed, the books after PS/SS have "grown up", become darker and less child oriented..

I can't see a problem if Harry is attacked by Voldemort and kills him in self defense or defense of others. I don't see why Harry will have a major problem with having had to do it either. This is the man who killed Harry's parents, caused the death of his godfather and his classmate, and has tried to kill Harry before and indirectly sent him to suffer at the hands of the Dursleys, the first part of robbing him of a normal childhood in every conceivable way.

Dumbledore may be "above" killing, but then who else wields his kind of power? Voldemort couldn't even scratch him in that MoM fight scene, let alone hurt him.

Harry is no Dumbledore. He's no Voldemort either. He hasn't shown nearly that kind of power. He mostly can't even do a proper transfiguration spell in a classroom with Ron and Hermione on either side of him.

It's possible that the only unique powers Harry possesses are the abilities to ride a broom really well, catch a Snitch during a school Quidditch match, and kill Voldemort. And Voldemort is probably the one who gave Harry that power in the first place.

If there's more to Harry's abilities, Rowling's hidden it very well. He lived due to Lilly. Twice. He's been rescued by someone or something in every end of book battle, and needed a ton of help even getting to the battle. He seems to stand alone at the end, but he never stays alone for long.

He won at "wand wrestling" in GoF, but Voldemort had just been restored to his body and was obviously overconfident. The whole "same magical creature core" conflict was a well placed deux ex. I thought, "wow, look at what Harry did!", but Harry didn't. The wand did. Then the shadow people did. Or Fawakes does. Or Lilly's love. Or Dumbledore's magic. Or other people showing up just in time.

I want to see Harry become a top wizard who could make choices when faced with death, but with two more books, and no groundwork for it, is that even a possibility? If anything, Rowlings keeps making Harry weaker than the baby who survived in the beginning, or the boy who made glass vanish without need for a wand.

Something will make Harry kill Voldemort. Probably a death threat to Hermione or Ron that only killing LV can stop. Then the term will then end, Harry will accept Dumbledore's offer to remain at Hogwarts as the DADA teacher, and everyone will cheer.

While Snape glowers in the background. Smile

And nobody will say, "Gee, Harry, I know it was he-who-need-not-be-named, but did you have to kill him?." Well okay, maybe Snape will.



freshwater - Nov 17, 2003 1:48 pm (#26 of 2971)

SJ Rand, you make some interesting points about Harry's magical powers, or lack thereof. But, don't forget that corporeal patronus, and at such a young age. Perhaps JKR's point here is that it's not so much how powerful you are, but how well you use your power. True, Harry has often been "between a rock and a hard place" when facing LV. But, sometimes he has survived by just playing for time and hanging in there until help arrives, or until LV makes a mistake. That may not qualify as magical power, but it's been quite effective. Your comments also make me wonder whether JKR's point about Harry's magical powers (or lack thereof....sorry, I don't often get to say "thereof"!) may be that they (the magical powers) are not as important to his success as other qualities, such as compassion, humility, selflessness, bravery, love of friends and family, loyalty, etc. What do you think?



freshwater - Nov 17, 2003 2:35 pm (#27 of 2971)

I had to walk away from the computer, so here's a second post to address "Dumbledore may be above it all" (killing LV). I've heard this from several people, but am at a loss to see their foundation for this statement (if I'm ignorant of something in canon or JKR interviews, please set me straight). If anything, I think DD's comments to LV/TR in the MoM indicate that he is perfectly willing to kill him, but prefers to take another tact. To the best of my memory (I'm at work, so cannot quote from my book) DD said, "I confess that killing you would not satisfy me, Tom. We both know there are other ways of destroying a man." Several points from those statements jump out at me: 1) DD wants something more satisfying than just killing LV/TR, 2) DD is willing to use some other means to destroy LV, and 3)--most intriguing of all--they both (DD and LV) understand how a man can be destroyed, yet not be killed....what could that common knowledge be, and how is it that they both came to this knowledge???? I am hoping that book 6 will reveal a great deal more about DD's early life and formative experiences, perhaps also how he came into the defeat of the evil Grindelwald in the 1940's.

Ooops! Just realized I've rambled on about DD and LV in the HP thread! Thirty lashes with a wet noodle from a pirate smiley! Please move this post to a more appropriate thread if you wish.



SJ Rand - Nov 17, 2003 4:21 pm (#28 of 2971)

>Your comments also make me wonder whether JKR's point about Harry's magical powers (or lack thereof....sorry, I don't often get to say "thereof"!) may be that they (the magical powers) are not as important to his success as other qualities, such as compassion, humility, selflessness, bravery, love of friends and family, loyalty, etc. What do you think?

Unfortunately, I think you're right. On the matter of >>it's not so much how powerful you are, but how well you use your power. as well.

In another post I mentioned the movie The Karate Kid. It had the same point, and was equally disappointing to me. If you haven't seen it, it boils down to this:

A kid gets the stuffing beaten out of him by karate students. He dedicates himself to learning karate. He enters a tournament, where the same bullies beat a lot more of the stuffing out of him until he makes one good move, and scores the winning point,

This somehow makes up for his having had the stuffing beaten out of him by the bullies, every chance they got, during the entire rest of the movie. The two sequels are the same, but have different people to beat him up.

Now, it seems very nice and very sweet and Hurrah! He WON! But when he goes home, he's going to have a broken nose, fractured ribs, and a broken knee that keeps him on cruches for quite some time... oh, and swollen testicles too. The bullies will have a few bruises here and there.

More importantly, he didn't deserve to beat them. Not outside of a Hollywood fantasy.. They were better than him. They still are. He might forget that later on, but in his dreams they're still beating the devil out of him because they can, and in the next move the same people, wearing different faces, do it all over again because they can. He didn't learn enough to be a winner, he just let himself get hit until he finally got lucky.

Not satisfying at all.

Repeating myself, the Harry Potter we first met in PS/SS seemed destined to become the most powerful wizard of his generation. Now it looks like he's going to win "karate kid" style, with one lucky "punch". That's not very satisfying either. Not to me at least. I very much hope I'm absolutely wrong about what I see coming. Other than his becoming the DADA professor. That would fit nicely.

>If anything, I think DD's comments to LV/TR in the MoM indicate that he is perfectly willing to kill him, but prefers to take another tact.

Voldemort says (paraphrase) "You do not seek to kill me. Above it are you?" before Dumbledore, not denying that reemark, makes his retort about there being other ways to destroy a man, and worse things than death.

>Ooops! Just realized I've rambled on about DD and LV in the HP thread! Yes, but you did it in the same spirit as I did: to make a point about Harry. Right? Smile

Edit:

By the way, about that Patronus: For once in his life, Harry dedicated himself to learning something he had to know. And most of the reason was that the dementors interfered with his Quidditch match. The other three or four spells he learned were so he could win the tri-wizard championship.

Here's a thought:

Dumbledore should make learning how to fight Voldemort with advanced magic into a school wide contest. Harry'd be sure to learn something that way.



Killian - Nov 17, 2003 5:15 pm (#29 of 2971)

Dumbledore should make learning how to fight Voldemort with advanced magic into a school wide contest. Harry'd be sure to learn something that way.

SJ Rand,

That seems kind of foolish, to have a contest to force Harry into learning some type of magic to use against Voldemort. For one, it would make it into more of a game and less of a serious and potentially deadly battle. The other problem with that would be that Voldemort doesn't neccesarily use deadly magic; he uses a variety of spells, primarily Avada Kedavra to kill his foes, and it's already known that it can't be blocked. (Unless, of course, you can make statues jump in the way of the spell for you). I don't think that it's a matter of learning higher magic or anything like that, since the books have been suggesting that the power that Harry has over Voldemort is his heart.

Book five, American version,page 843: "It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."

Also, J.K. Rowling said once that "What's very important for me is when Dumbledore says that you have to choose between what is right and what is easy. This is the setup for the next three books. All of them are going to have to choose, because what is easy is often not right."

Okay, so basically what I feel is that Rowling is not going to have Harry kill Voldemort. Everything seems to be suggesting that it will be something else, from what Voldemort says about Harry to what Rowling says about the right thing often not being easy. I'm not saying that it's easy to kill someone, but I am saying that it would be a hundred times easier for Harry to learn some type of higher magic or whatever you want to call it that would allow him to kill Voldemort. On one of the prophecy threads, someone brought up a good point as well: Harry didn't kill Wormtail even when he knew that he was responsible for imprisoning his grandfather and getting his parents killed. The only person that it has ever seemed that Harry has wanted to kill for even a little while would be Beatrix Lestrange, and that was immediately after he saw her kill Sirius. While Harry is getting older, and the books are getting darker, I don't think it's going to conclude with such an obvious ending. Why would Rowling make something so blatantly obvious after tricking everyone so many times before? Maybe getting us to over analyze these things is what she is trying to get us to do, but I don't really think so. Killing Voldemort just seems to easy a solution, and personally I like the idea better that Harry might try to do that and fail miserably because that is not the case. Remember, Tom did say that he has no extraordinary magical talent, so Harry learning high level magic doesn't seem to be the key. Obviously whatever the solution is may have to do with Harry's talent at Defense Against the Dark Arts, but who knows? I just don't think things will be so simple as "ha, look, now I killed you. The end."



freshwater - Nov 17, 2003 7:15 pm (#30 of 2971)

Killian wrote: I don't think that it's a matter of learning higher magic or anything like that, since the books have been suggesting that the power that Harry has over Voldemort is his heart.

Book five, American version,page 843: "It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."

Also, J.K. Rowling said once that "What's very important for me is when Dumbledore says that you have to choose between what is right and what is easy. This is the setup for the next three books. All of them are going to have to choose, because what is easy is often not right."

I agree, Killian, that the power of Harry's magic will not be the deciding factor in LV's destruction. It will be something more like a combination of his wizard powers and his humanity/those forces contained in the MOM room (read: compassion, selflessness, humility, loyalty, bravery, etc.). This would parallel the miracle of his survival as an infant: it was not due to the greatness of Lily's magical powers, but those powers in combination with her sacrificing herself for Harry. It was the sacrifice--the kind of "magic" of which any of us muggles is capable, should we so choose--that empowered the magic, so to speak.

I believe JKR wants to not only write an epic story of good vs. evil, but to show her readers (many of them young people in the process of forming their ideals and values) that it will not be magic that will cure the world's ills (in Potterverse or in Muggleworld). Rather it will be the consequences of the choices they/we make, day in and day out, to do what is right and good rather than what is easy and popular. In the end, it will probably not be the greatness of Harry's magic that defeats LV, but will be more the manner or circumstances in which he acts that will result in LV's destruction.

But, even that will not be "the end" in a neat and easy "ding, dong the witch is dead" kind of way. JKR has made it very clear that the main reason that LV is such a threat is that there already exsists in the wizarding world such inequity and discord among the various creatures and species: wizards/witches, goblins, giants, werewolves, centaurs, etc. Even with LV out of the picture, the wizarding world has plenty of hash to settle. That will be the real and never-ending battle. And, why I believe Harry must survive the LV confrontation, so that he may continue in his role-model/leadership role of doing what is good and right rather than what is easy, as the WW works through all these issues.

Wow, give me a soapbox and I can go on forever! Any thoughts?



Madame Librarian - Nov 18, 2003 7:10 am (#31 of 2971)

Very good ideas in your post, freshwater!

I especially agree with your observation that even without V. and the DEs looming over the Wizarding World, there is lots to deal with. Here again, a parallel to the the real world after the defeat of Hitler--lots of issues were still around to cause misery, unfairness, bloodshed, confrontation:

struggle for independence in India, Israel, Ireland

the Civil Rights movement in the US

Communism v. Capitalism, i.e., the Cold Ward and the nuclear threat

and many more things

Ciao. Barb



SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 10:35 am (#32 of 2971)

Killian: >> That seems kind of foolish, to have a contest to force Harry into learning some type of magic to use against Voldemort.

That was a joke, Killian. My fault: I really need to start linking "graphic emoticons". Let's see <--- Okay, now it's more obvious that I'm kidding.

My point is that he's most serious about learning when it involves a contest he wants to win. What spells can Harry perform well which weren't picked up because of a contest, or from Hermione, or from Hermione because of a contest?

>but I am saying that it would be a hundred times easier for Harry to learn some type of higher magic or whatever you want to call it that would allow him to kill Voldemort.

And what I'm saying is that Harry isn't learning enough magic to avoid killing Voldemort if some accident opens up the possibility. Dumbledore's "higher magic" gives him the skills to avoid killing. Harry doesn't do "higher magic", and shows no inclination to learn. He's known about the danger of Voldemort since first term, and still doesn't try to learn anything to help himself... unless it's to help himself in a contest.

>Harry didn't kill Wormtail even when he knew that he was responsible for imprisoning his grandfather and getting his parents killed.
True. But remember that Wormtail was subdued, in custody of Lupin and Sirius, and was destined for Azkaban. I doubt Voldemort is going to end up that way. Not by Harry's hand, at least, unless something major changes in him for the last two books.

Freshwater: >>that it will not be magic that will cure the world's ills (in Potterverse or in Muggleworld). Rather it will be the consequences of the choices they/we make, day in and day out, to do what is right and good rather than what is easy and popular.

and:

>JKR has made it very clear that the main reason that LV is such a threat is that there already exsists in the wizarding world such inequity and discord among the various creatures and species: wizards/witches, goblins, giants, werewolves, centaurs, etc. Even with LV out of the picture, the wizarding world has plenty of hash to settle. That will be the real and never-ending battle. And, why I believe Harry must survive the LV confrontation, so that he may continue in his role-model/leadership role of doing what is good and right

Then Hermione is the hero. You've described her far better than you've described Harry.

Hermione applies herself to becoming the best person she can be. She tries to right the injustice of (Elf) slavery. Ron and Harry laugh at her tilting at windmills. While Hermione's nose is buried in a book, Harry and Ron play wizard chess. When Harry or Ron need to learn something, Hermione helps them, but they still laugh at her obsession with school work.

Harry's choices are to play Quidditch and do as little as he can get away with without being expelled, since he doesn't want to go back to the Dursley's. In OotP, that was his biggest fear if the MoM got him kicked out.

This is the enigma that Rowling has created, particularly with the last two books, by having her hero shirk all duty other than what he feels like doing.

The result of his choices? Well, who was really responsible for Sirius' death?

Voldemort set up the method of trapping Harry.

Snape could have been far better at teaching Occlumency.

But in the end it was Harry, who wanted to see how the dreams turned out. Was he being noble? No. He just wanted to see the weapon the MoM was guarding. He doesn't even try to practice Occlumency, or tell anyone that he's not learning it, because he doesn't want to stop the dreams. Many people warn him but he wants to see that weapon, so Sirius ends up dead.



Killian - Nov 18, 2003 2:21 pm (#33 of 2971)

Harry's choices are to play Quidditch and do as little as he can get away with without being expelled, since he doesn't want to go back to the Dursley's. In OotP, that was his biggest fear if the MoM got him kicked out.

Wow, now is that harsh or what? While I am willing to admit that one of Harry's major fears was getting expelled from school and going back to the Dursleys, I don't think that that was all he was afraid of. And yes, it's also true that he does seem to only learn things when he has to and play Quidditch, but I don't think that's all there is to it. It would make him such a lousy character if it was, and obviously there are things that are more important to him in the books. Harry has a hero complex: he just has to go and save people if he thinks that they're in danger, and Hermione tells him as much in the book. But why does he do it in the first place? Harry doesn't choose to go look for Sirius because he thinks it will help him figure out what's in the Department of Mysteries; he goes because he's scared that Sirius will die, and to him Sirius was one of the most important things in the world. While it did result in his death in the end, how was Harry to know that? He truly believed that Sirius was there, and because of that he went to rescue him. There have been other times in the books where he's also gone to great lengths to save others, and not because he wants praise but because he couldn't live with himself if he didn't help them.

Thinking along those same lines causes me to think that Harry won't kill Voldemort. Yes, it's true, he did think Wormtail would go to Azkaban, and that's probably why he was willing to let him off, but still, to actually have him take Voldemort's life? The solution just seems way to simple.

My point is that he's most serious about learning when it involves a contest he wants to win. What spells can Harry perform well which weren't picked up because of a contest, or from Hermione, or from Hermione because of a contest?

Point taken, but I wonder if after Harry dies what he will do now? Somehow, I don't see him sitting around and acting much the same as before. If he believes that he is going to have to kill Voldemort one day, then he's probably going to try and improve a little more. Not to mention he probably wants revenge on Bellatrix for killing Sirius. I don't think that Harry's going to be as lazy in the next books, since he knows what can happen as a result of that. Of course, people have a tendency to repeat their mistakes so I could definitely be wrong and he could still be acting like a slightly pompous fool in the next book . . .



::StinkerBell:: - Nov 18, 2003 3:08 pm (#34 of 2971)

I think its very odd that the last two books had Wormtongue all over, and now he has vanished. JK never does this to a character. DD said to Harry that Wormtongue has bounded himself to Harry. Some how I think Wormtongue still had a part in OoP, just not in the open. People mentioned the whole "Lupin's death by Wormtongue" But what if Voldemort Dies by the hand other, by Wormtongue.... How does the prophecy go? "One must die by the hand of the other" It was Voldemort's fault Wormtongue has the hand, if he is bound by Harry, it would be that he is one of Harry's spirit, in a weird way. Ok, the last sentence does not make sense, but I found no other way to explain.... all I'm trying to say is, I think that by not killing Wormtonge, he will need a reason to live. Harry can not dwell on the thought that he should of murdered Wormtonge. Its not a good thought. To regret not killing some one is a little to scary to me.



SJ Rand - Nov 18, 2003 3:31 pm (#35 of 2971)

Me: "Harry's choices are to play Quidditch and do as little as he can get away with without being expelled, since he doesn't want to go back to the Dursley's. In OotP, that was his biggest fear if the MoM got him kicked out."

Killian:

>Wow, now is that harsh or what?

Yes, it's harsh but it's also been true in both GoF and OotP. There was a whole lot more to Harry before those two books, especially before OotP, and I'm hoping there will again be a lot more to him in the last two books.

>And yes, it's also true that he does seem to only learn things when he has to and play Quidditch, but I don't think that's all there is to it. It would make him such a lousy character if it was...

I don't know. Not a sterling character, certainly, but there wasn't much more to Tom Sawyer, and he was a good character.

>Harry doesn't choose to go look for Sirius because he thinks it will help him figure out what's in the Department of Mysteries; he goes because he's scared that Sirius will die,

Yes, but if he wasn't so set on learning what the weapon in the MoM was, he'd never have been deluded into thinking that Sirius was in trouble, and ran off to rescue him thereby actually causing Sirius to get killed. He had to know what that weapon was. Only Harry Potter could fully appreciate it's value, since only Harry Potter had faced Voldemort recently.

>There have been other times in the books where he's also gone to great lengths to save others, and not because he wants praise but because he couldn't live with himself if he didn't help them.

Absolutely true. Which is both admirable and a character flaw at the same time. He wants to save people because he doesn't want them hurt. That's admirable. In GoF and OotP, he seems to think that he's the only one who can do it. That's part of what's been causing him trouble.

In OotP he doesn't even think "Who can stop this?", it's too obvious to him that only he can. Later, he remembers that Snape is in the order too. He never remembers that if he could contact Sirius via the fire, he could contact the Weasleys the same way, and they could get the entire Order over to the MoM a lot faster than he could get there.

This is what one might call "A fatal flaw". It was certainly fatal for Sirius. To be fair, not even Ron or Hermione suggested calling Ron's parents.

> Thinking along those same lines causes me to think that Harry won't kill Voldemort.

I do think you're right about that. I just can't see the problem if he did end up killing the guy. Wouldn't be the first time a hero killed a villan, not even in a strictly children's book, which these aren't. Good guy not killing bad guy is a recent development, maybe sparked by 1960's - 1980's comic books where a real hero won't kill even to save his own life, or the lives of fifty thousand innocent people.

>I don't think that Harry's going to be as lazy in the next books, since he knows what can happen as a result of that.

I'm very much hoping the same thing. I liked Harry. I still do, but his "feet of clay" have gotten a bit too large and brittle for my tastes. I hope Rowling think's she's made her point about him having flaws and being a real teenager with real teenage issues, and just moves on to writing a semi-adult who can and will do what needs to be done to protect himself and everyone around him. Even if he's not the one that needs to do it.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 18, 2003 5:06 pm (#36 of 2971)

Stinkerbell, I think you meant WormTAIL.



freshwater - Nov 18, 2003 7:34 pm (#37 of 2971)

S.J. Rand wrote: Then Hermione is the hero. You've described her far better than you've described Harry.

Hermione applies herself to becoming the best person she can be. She tries to right the injustice of (Elf) slavery. Ron and Harry laugh at her tilting at windmills. While Hermione's nose is buried in a book, Harry and Ron play wizard chess. When Harry or Ron need to learn something, Hermione helps them, but they still laugh at her obsession with school work.

I've never had any problem with there being more than one hero in this series. I think that has been JKR's intention all along: to show that one can be a hero in many different ways....famous-unusually gifted-subject of a prophesy-compassionate (Harry), or....bumbling-ineffective-but loyal and brave (Neville), or....studious-determined-bossy-focused (Hermione). Also, that a hero need not be the BEST at something (a neurotic American hang-up: if you're not #1, you're nothing) in order to still accomplish something great and significant. I believe the whole point of the series--or at least one of the major points--will be that we are each a "hero" when we make choices that are selfless and loving, and that one does not need to be a SUPERhero in order to accomplish important things.

One of my favorite things about the series is the way that simple courtesies and considerations end up having profound consequences: Harry is kind to Moaning Myrtle when everyone else thinks she's batty, and she ends up helping him solve the egg riddle in GoF; Harry takes pity on Dobby and tricks Lucius into freeing Dobby, later Dobby is able to provide a safe location for DA meetings and food for Sirius when he is in hiding; Ron gives Dobby his unwanted socks and Dobby is so touched that he is determined that Harry will not "lose his weezy" in the 2nd test in GoF. Over and over again JKR shows that small kindnesses reverberate through time to have a big impact on events.



::StinkerBell:: - Nov 18, 2003 8:03 pm (#38 of 2971)

oops! Sorry all! Didn't catch that, I was just watching Lord of the Rings, and one of the bad guy's name is Grima Wormtongue....



popkin - Nov 19, 2003 2:12 am (#39 of 2971)

About Harry's laziness regarding lessons. Don't forget the DA. Harry really applied himself there, and there is no better way to learn a subject than to try to teach it. It was because of those efforts that he was able to repel Snape from his mind with an unexpected curse. Was is "protega"? I figured he learned it while teaching his fellow students.

Also, Harry was constantly studying in OotP. He wasn't applying himself to occlumency like he should have been. But, very often, he was having trouble emptying his mind because it was swirling around all the subjects he was trying to master for his O.W.L.s.

I'm not saying Harry isn't lazy on occasion, but he also hasn't neglected his school duties to the degree that some on this forum have stated.



Lenka - Nov 19, 2003 4:45 am (#40 of 2971)

StinkerBell, somehow I think JK got the idea of "wormtail" from wormtongue. They have SO much in common. I mean, both spies, both on the said of the dark, both worthless bits of slime with no respect for themselves or others.

You know what? Maybe Pettigrew had a crush on Lily. Smile (aka Wormtongue - Eowyn). It would at least explain why Voldy wanted to spare Lily. Smile

Lenka



Weeny Owl - Nov 19, 2003 8:18 am (#41 of 2971)

Occlumency: Yes, Harry wanted to see what was in the DoM, and he didn't practice Occlumency as he should have, but...

...by the time Harry begins lessons, he's already faced Dementors, a trial, Umbridge's quill, people who have known him for years treating him as if he were something vile, and all the nasty things being said about him in the newspaper. Then there's the pressure of O.W.L.s, not to mention Snape giving him a zero during the first potions lesson. One thing I remembered throughout the book is that Harry's scar hurts quite a bit. I would think that would affect his concentration not only during Occlumency but during all the ordinary trials and tribulations a fifteen-year-old goes through.

He's one confused kid during OoTp, and he IS a kid. He's only fifteen years old, and having been around enough people who have been that age (and remembering myself at fifteen), I don't see Harry's behavior or emotions as anything but normal.

I don't see Harry as arrogant or wanting attention. He does have some arrogance, but most people do. He tends to have attention thrust upon him when he would prefer to be a normal kid with nothing more to worry about than girls, grades, and Quidditch. I think he tries to be normal during OotP but circumstances won't allow it.

I do not feel that Harry is responsible for Sirius dying. He bears some responsibility, but so do quite a few others including Sirius himself. If Sirius had remembered the mirror, he could have reminded Harry about it during that fireplace chat in Umbridge's office. If Dumbledore or other members of the Order had told Harry more about the situation, it could have been different. If Snape had taken a different approach, Harry might have learned more quickly. If any of the trio had remembered Snape was in the Order, Sirius might not have died. The only one who is truly responsible is Voldie... well, Bella the psychotic too, of course.

Harry might not have been the likable kid we saw during the first four books, true, but he's had more to deal with than any ten adult wizards. I think he handled himself as well as could be expected under the circumstances.



HP Fan - Nov 19, 2003 2:46 pm (#42 of 2971)

I think you have hi-lighted a very important thing about life there Weeny Owl, that life is full of ifs. As Dumbledore says in I think PoA [haven't got the book in front of me right now - 'The consequences of our actions are so diverse that its hard to predict the future' [not exact quote]. It is so easy to look back in hindsight and think 'If only I'd done A instead of B... then C wouldn't of happened.' I think JKR has created a very realistic teenage boy who is developing like all others, I know from my own experiences when I was 15 most lads my age were at times arrogant little berks' [I think Sirius says that somewhere in OoP] even now at twenty they're not always as mature or as sensitive to other people's feelings and views as they could/should be. I think people who are moaning about Harry's attitude [please don't shoot me it's just an opinion which you can agree or disagree with as you wish] are missing a very vital point. He's 15 and been through more than most 15 years olds have ever been through. When people go through experiences such as Harry's anger is just one way of dealing with it all, it helps stop things building up to a point where you breakdown. It releases tension.

Harry's changing views of McGonagall and indeed of Dumbledore are indicators to the fact he is growing up and maturing. He's beginning to see there is more to teachers than pupils expect, he sees McGonnagall's softer side and feels wrong footed. He's now realised that Dumbledore can make mistakes, yes he's angry with Dumbledore at the end of the book and it shows that he is beginning to move beyond the one dimensional student view of teachers, to see them as three dimensional humans beings. The teenagers world is a confusing place, hormones are racing and in both the Wizarding and muggle worlds you are going through the most intense and most important phase of your education taking exams which WILL effect your whole future, add all Harry's experiences on top, and I know I for one wouldn't have coped even half as well as him - I had mini breakdowns during GCSE and A Level final years!

Oh well me thinks I may have started to ramble so I'm going to post this and see what happens! :-) I think I've got most of rant of my chest now! See I'm taking the Weasley twins advice in not bottling things up! I feel better now. Whether anyone else does now or not I don't know!



SJ Rand - Nov 19, 2003 3:36 pm (#43 of 2971)

Weeny Owl: >>...by the time Harry begins lessons, he's already faced Dementors, a trial, Umbridge's quill, people who have known him for years treating him as if he were something vile,.......

All true, but remember that he was already having the dreams at the Dursley's, and was so interested in what was at the end of the corridor that he hid them from everybody. I'm not sure, but wasn't Snape the first person to find out about them due to those "lessons"?

Also while he was at the Dursley's, and really did have every reason to feel angry and cut off, he determined that he was the one who had defeated Voldemort... with maybe just a little help. But regardless of the help, it was he who stood before Voldemort.

These two things set the stage for much of what follows.

In the end, it's undeniable that no matter what distractions he had, the real reason the dreams continued was because he wanted to have them.

> I don't see Harry as arrogant or wanting attention.

For the most part, neither do I. Other than what I mentioned above, and his little fantasy about being the Tri-Wizard champion when he first heard of it. That one surprised me, considering he does always seem annoyed at the attention.

>I do not feel that Harry is responsible for Sirius dying. He bears some responsibility, but so do quite a few others....

This is a tough one because I don't like the fact that Harry bears the brunt of the responsibility for it any more than anyone else, but he does.

Yes, everybody is less helpful and forthcoming than they should be, but then nobody knew about his dream either. Dumbledore should have told Harry why he needed to learn Occlumency, but did try to impress upon Harry that he needed to learn it. So did almost everyone else.

Unfortunately, Harry heeds only to his own council.

Changing the subject slightly, here's another thought:

It seems that corporeal punishment is outlawed at Hogwarts.

Harry decided not to tell anyone about Umbridge's flesh carving quill. This was from pride. He didn't want Umbridge to think she was getting to him. So he hid that too.

What might have happened if he did tell Dumbledore about that torture device? Way back in the beginning, while she was nothing more than another teacher? Could DD could have tossed Umbridge out on her ear?

The MoM rule only said that they could place her, it didn't say that DD couldn't fire her if he had a good reason. Torturing students would probably have been a pretty good reason.



nmnjr - Nov 20, 2003 6:16 am (#44 of 2971)

I think Harry's fantasy about the Tri-Wizard tournament is because (assuming he were old enough) he would get attention/admiration for something he did, not something that happened to him.

As for the quill of Umbridge's, he is trying desperately not to seem like the whiny attention-seeker The Daily Prophet is making him out to be.

Then again, I shudder to think who they'd replace Umbridge with since she was the best the Ministry could come up with!



SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 9:54 am (#45 of 2971)

nmnjr: >>Then again, I shudder to think who they'd replace Umbridge with since she was the best the Ministry could come up with!

I was thinking that, for all the teaching ability Umbridge brought to the position, Dumbledore could have replaced her with Dobby.



Fawkes Forever - Nov 20, 2003 10:09 am (#46 of 2971)

Seeing that it's well known Voldy is back... I think the Ministry will make sure that Hogwarts gets a competent DADA teacher ... then again, we have been wrong before!

As for Harrys fantasy about the Tri-Wizard Tournament.... thats all it was.... a fantasy... he didn't really want to take part....

Admittedly like a true teenager, initially he was more worried about making a fool of himself in front of the entire school rather than a little matter like.... ummm, he might die But then again, that reaction is only human ....



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 20, 2003 10:11 am (#47 of 2971)

About Harry not speaking up about the 'Carving Quill': He wasn't the only one who doesn't speak up. Lee Jordan also got a taste of it, didn't he? And at one point didn't the book say that Goyle got "lines" as a punishment from Umbridge for the Quidditch incident? Why didn't either of them speak up?



SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 12:20 pm (#48 of 2971)

Amy Alpin,

If I remember correctly, by the time Jordan got treated to Umbridge she was already High Inquisitor and arguably beyond Dumbledore's authority. When she first applied that quill to Harry, she was still nothing more than the Ministry's post for a teaching position Dumbledore failed to fill.

If Harry had spoken up, Dumbledore might have been able to fire her. If Jordan spoke up, I'd guess the best they could do would have been send a protest to the Ministry, which would only have resulted in her being granted authority to use corporeal punishment.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 20, 2003 12:38 pm (#49 of 2971)

Right you are! I stand corrected! I just have a hard time believing that Harry was the only studrnt treated this way during her stint as a teacher BEFORE she bacame High Inquisitor.



Killian - Nov 20, 2003 4:09 pm (#50 of 2971)

Now, everyone's been saying things like "when I was fifteen, I know that I blah, blah, blah . . . Well, guess what? I'm sixteen, so I think I can provide insight on the teenage mind that most may have forgotten.

I think Harry's fantasy about the Tri-Wizard tournament is because (assuming he were old enough) he would get attention/admiration for something he did, not something that happened to him.

Trust me, he was old enough, and that's a good point. Harry wasn't really being arrogant when he was thinking of it, he was being like any other teenage guy and thinking "wow, I can't wait to impress everyone with how good I am" and other stupid, silly thoughts like that. His whole stupid Cho crush thing annoyed me to death, because it reduced Hermione to an advice columnist and because that's all I ever hear about at school, guys complaining because they can't understand why girls do things and . . . yeah, that's really not what I'm supposed to be talking about. Anyway, Harry is basically the average teenager. He doesn't listen to common sense (know I don't most of the time) or other people's advice even when he knows it's good and that he should listen. He daydreams about silly things and being better than what he is. He doesn't really do his homework very well or very often, which trust me, most teenagers I know (and this includes me) don't, and he likes to think that he's always right. He wants to blame himself for everything that goes wrong and has a tendency to think that the entire world revolves around him and everything that happens in it happens because of him. Guess what? Just about every teenager I know is like that, myself included. So, pretty much, in terms of his behavior in this book, it's perfectly natural even if none of us really like to see it. I just hope that maybe he'll grow out of it (yeah, right) by the time the next book comes out.

And as for not telling anyone about Umbridge, he did that for several reason which are very clear to me: One was pride, two was he was mad at Dumbledore, and three was him being stupid and not listening to good advice. So you know, most of us teenagers have a tendency not to tell people things when we really, really should and we eventually find out that we really, really should have later. Is this coming from experience? Yeah. I had a major problem with a teacher a few weeks ago (though not as severe as Harry's) and instead of telling someone about it I kept it to myself, and I am still keeping it to myself. Am I going to tell anyone? No, because I have way to much pride and I don't want my teacher to realize that she's gotten to me, which is exactly how Harry felt. As crazy as the kid drives me, I realize that had that been me in his place I would have done the same thing.



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Madame Librarian - Nov 20, 2003 4:32 pm (#51 of 2971)

Killian, thanks for your good insights there. I, too, thought that Harry was not telling partially out of anger at Dumbledore. He feels that DD has abandoned him and experiences a complex mix of anger, fear and sorrow at losing the great man's attention. I can see him thinking that if he were to run to DD complaining about Umbridge, he might be rejected as a whiner, given the silent treatment, or just met with a lack of sympathy and understanding (as he was for the hearing at the MoM).

So, he reacts like a little kid: "I'll show them! They'll be sooo sorry and shocked when they find out what I've been through."

Another theory I have, which is very dark, is that Harry doesn't report these sadistic detention methods because he feels deep inside himself that he deserves to be punished for a variety of faults--his terrible accusations of his friends, his own rash behavior (which he is just starting to recognize may endanger his friends), his guilt at wanting to continue those bizarre dreams. Unconsciously Harry may be hoping that the pain of Umbridge's awful quill will drive out all the negative feelings, dreams, memories, what have you.

Yes, I know this is a stretch here, so I've not totally convinced even myself. It's a bit too Freudian. But, I can see a little tiny hint of "I deserve this" in Harry.

Ciao. Barb



Susurro Notities - Nov 20, 2003 5:28 pm (#52 of 2971)

Killian,
You are right it is difficult to recall exactly what it is like to be a teen when one is - well let's just say - a bit beyond those years. You have respectfully and insightfully reminded all of us older folks that Harry's behavior is typical.
I am sure you get PLENTY of do your homework talk from your parents but if you would permit me I would like to repay your insight with a bit of my 40 something insight. Do your homework. Once you are older you really will wish you had done more with your very obvious talents when you were young.
Ok I am now descending the soap box.



Weeny Owl - Nov 20, 2003 8:13 pm (#53 of 2971)

Killian:

You've put your heart and your life in what I've been trying to say about Harry and his motivations. Thank you!

Barb:

I've wondered myself about Harry feeling the need to be punished. Perhaps it's growing up with the Dursleys or maybe it's because he knows his parents died trying to save him or maybe we're both a bit nutty.

I also agree with both of you about his anger and puzzlement regarding Dumbledore.



S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 9:44 pm (#54 of 2971)

I reminded of something Mark Twain said: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Basically, it means that when we're young, we think we know everything, but hindsight is twenty-twenty and we find out later in life that all those things our parents told us actually were handy after all. Harry is, unfortunately, still in the former stage. He's still a little too sure of himself to realize that those older than himself have, as Phineas pointed out, never led him wrong and just accept that. I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but perhaps there is an upside to Sirius's death... One of the good things about grief is the it can give us an early hindsight. Maybe we'll see Harry re-thinking some things in book 6. Maybe we'll see him more willing to accept that those older and wiser than himself may have a better idea of what he should be doing than he does... Just an idea....



popkin - Nov 21, 2003 1:30 am (#55 of 2971)

I'm hoping we see a much more mature Harry in the next book. He's going to have to put aside his resentment toward Snape to really accept personal resposibility and to grow emotionally.



Peregrine - Nov 21, 2003 8:02 am (#56 of 2971)

S.E., I think you’re right about Sirius’ death. Speaking from experience (unfortunately) that sort of thing does make you grow up fast and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it’s not like Harry’s going to be missing out on his childhood because he had to grow up faster than others—his childhood was lousy from age one. Getting away from the torments of adolescence may actually make Harry, dare I say it…happy.



SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 9:27 am (#57 of 2971)

Typical teenage behavior, but would Harry be a typical teenager? We all read and remember the things he's been through, has done, and has had done to him.

Peregrine accurately points out (regarding Sirius dying) : >>that sort of thing does make you grow up fast and that's not necessarily a bad thing

That's true, and Harry's been through many things that should make him grow up very quickly. Dismissing things he does or doesn't do by saying it's only typical teenage behavior might not be as on the mark as we would like to think.

Yes, Harry was mad at Dumbledore, but he wasn't angry at McGonagall, head of his house, assistant headmaster, and Order member.

Lacking Umbridge's quill in real life, an example of similar abuse might be a teacher punching a student in the kidneys. I can't accept that even a "typical" teenager wouldn't tell somebody about that. An American football, or British rugby, jock might take a couple of punches from the team's coach and keep his mouth shut, but the reasons would be very different. I doubt that same student would keep silent if it were done by a new and universally unpopular (hated) teacher.

Madame Librarian: >>Another theory I have, which is very dark, is that Harry doesn't report these sadistic detention methods because he feels deep inside himself that he deserves to be punished for a variety of faults...

That's probably closer to the truth. I don't think it's the whole explanation, but I agree that it's likely a part of what's going on in his mind.



S.E. Jones - Nov 21, 2003 10:05 am (#58 of 2971)

Typical teenage behavior, but would Harry be a typical teenager? We all read and remember the things he's been through, has done, and has had done to him.

I don't quite see where you're coming from with this one. Of course he would be. He's still human and human bodies have to go through certain cycles. That's just the natural process of things. Grief, however, can force certain mental processes to speed up, not all of them, just certain ones. Harry's had to endure quite a few out-there things, grief, neglect, etc, but there are many kids who have to go through these same things (Voldemort not withstanding). He's different on certain levels than other kids his age, just as a kid who was severely abused as a child would be compared to their peers. These things do have an effect, I'll grant you. But, I think Harry has done an amazing job of letting the majority of these things, at least until recently, slide of his back so that he could remain unscathed and whole. As normal a kid as anyone could expect him to be. Dumbledore said as much when he spoke to Harry at the end of OotP.



Susurro Notities - Nov 21, 2003 10:20 am (#59 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 21, 2003 10:40 am

Growing up is a broad term. While experiencing death early may result in maturing in some emotional arenas it can stunt growth or have no effect in others. Irregardless of experience, psychologically intact individuals do not skip stages of growth. It is indicative of Harry's resilient nature that he continues to develop normally.
I buy Killian's idea that Harry didn't want to appear weak in front of Umbridge so he didn't report the pen incidents. That was a piece of the past that Killian's well written post brought back to me. I well remember being willing to suffer rather than let a hated adult know they had gotten to me.
Freud said that dreams mean what the dreamer says they mean. In other words if a psychiatrist isn't careful he will inject his own experiences and muddy the waters. I feel that way about the Harry thinks he deserves to be punished theory. Killian's simpler interpretation of Harry's actions sounds like something Harry would himself say. The deserves to be punished theory strikes me as injecting an outside adult interpretation.
I sincerely don't wish to offend Madame Librarian and SJ Rand - it's just my opinion.

EDIT: We must have cross posted S.E. - Thanks for the compliment - you and I do seem to be of like mind on this issue.



S.E. Jones - Nov 21, 2003 10:28 am (#60 of 2971)

Susurro: "Growing up" is a broad term. While experiencing death early may result in maturing in some emotional arenas it can stunt growth or have no effect in others. Irregardless of experience, psychologically intact individuals do not skip stages of growth. It is indicative of Harry's resilient nature that he continues to develop normally.

That is exactly what I was trying to say, Susurro, but, per usually, you said it far more articulately than I.

And, to add to what Killian said, OotP, c13, p269, US: He was not really sure why he was not telling Ron and Hermione exactly what was happening in Umbridge's room: He only knew that he did not want to see thie looks of horror; that would make the whole thing seem worse and therefore more difficult to face. He also felt dimly that this was between himself and Umbridge, a private battle of wills, and he was not going to give her the satisfaction of hearing that he had complained about it.



Madame Librarian - Nov 21, 2003 10:31 am (#61 of 2971)

Susurro, don't worry, you are soo nice. Well, to respond, I did qualify my comment by saying it's Freudian and I didn't totally buy it. I just sensed that Harry might be feeling a whiff of guilt over his behavior. I think his reluctance to squeal is due to a messy, complex stew of emotions, and the fast-moving tsunami of dire events that are happening around him keep him from dwelling on this particular problem. I do think if he'd been on his way back to Gryffindor Tower and McGonagall or Mme. Poppy had seen him with his hand bleeding, they could have gotten the full story out of him. Now, that might have been an interesting twist. Obviously, not the one JKR wished us to read.

Ciao. Barb



SJ Rand - Nov 21, 2003 12:58 pm (#62 of 2971)

S.E. Jones: >>He's different on certain levels than other kids his age, just as a kid who was severely abused as a child would be compared to their peers.

In other words he's not "typical". Reactions are changed by experience, and he's had many highly unusual experiences. You alluded to hormonal changes, I believe. Yes, they happen no matter what experiences a person has had, but those experiences will alter their behavioral effect. We're both saying the same thing, but from different sides of the fence.

Susurro,

You're not offending me in any way. If people didn't have different opinions, what could we talk about? Our local weather?

S.E. Jones: (quoting from OotP) He also felt dimly that this was between himself and Umbridge, a private battle of wills, and he was not going to give her the satisfaction of hearing that he had complained about it.

Which I think can just as easily be read as his wanting to sort her out himself, based on his pride not his age. Any person can feel that way at any age.

Madame Librarian: >>I do think if he'd been on his way back to Gryffindor Tower and McGonagall or Mme. Poppy had seen him with his hand bleeding, they could have gotten the full story out of him. Now, that might have been an interesting twist. Obviously, not the one JKR wished us to read.

That's the ultimate reality here. Whatever else we argue, if Harry had gotten Umbridge fired most of the rest of the story would be gone, or Rowling would have had to put another Umbridge in, and what would be the point of that when she already had one there?



Weeny Owl - Nov 21, 2003 1:52 pm (#63 of 2971)

Susurro - "The deserves to be punished theory strikes me as injecting an outside adult interpretation."

That is a good point, Susurro. It was a topic worthy of discussion, but I can see what you mean.



Rich - Nov 21, 2003 6:35 pm (#64 of 2971)

Harry is a very independant person for his age. He has mananged to grow up with the Dursleys and he still is, even though they treat him like rubbish. He always cops a lot of abuse from them but he pushes it aside and gets on with life. He didn't complain to them because he knew it would not get him anywhere (I meant to use the word didn't, because I think things are going to be different form now on.)

So when Umbridge abuses him, is it fair to say that he thought complaining would get him nowhere? His past life experiences have led him to believe that he should cope with things on his own, independantly. Another example of this is when he was hearing the Basilisk.

Their is no doubt that other, shall we say, traits also made him act the way he did. Pride, being the main one.

Only when Harry fully accepts the fact that people do want to help him, will he ask for help.



Killian - Nov 21, 2003 7:15 pm (#65 of 2971)

Only when Harry fully accepts the fact that people do want to help him, will he ask for help.

True, but the thing is he does realize that people want to help. It's just that he's not willing to listen to the advice of his elders. He's too proud, which is a failing that most of us teenagers have as well. And as for he's been through a lot, yeah, that's very true, but you want to know one of the reasons why he still doesn't always act as mature as he ought to, given his experiences? Because's he is still a kid, regardless of what he's seen and been through. A lot of teenagers have been through times that while not being as bad as some of Harry's, are still very hard to get through. As much as a person's experiences affect them, there is still the fact that he is a teenager and thinks like a teenager because everyone around him is also thinking like a teenager. Believe it or not, a lot of us have tough lives, or what we think of as being a tough lives. Teenagers like me all think that we're the center of the universe, have way too much pride, and just do stupid things because we figure that it's not going to matter later on. We don't see what happens as a result of our actions, no matter how much our parents or anyone else tries to explain it to us. Even after we've learned better, we still repeat the same old mistakes. Case and point: even after getting really bad grades on three trigonometry tests and telling myself I would study, I didn't. I knew it was the right thing, my parents told me it was the right thing, and yet I didn't do it. While that experience can't really compare to some of the things that Harry's gone through, he still does the same sort of thing.

The main problem is this: every time Harry faces Voldemort, he gets through it okay. Though he tells himself that he's just as human as the rest of us, he still stupidly believes that he can go in and do what no one else can because he's managed to do it before. Harry is, in all respect, a teenager, and as much as we all hope that he's finally learned from his mistakes, he probably still hasn't.



S.E. Jones - Nov 21, 2003 7:54 pm (#66 of 2971)

Though he tells himself that he's just as human as the rest of us, he still stupidly believes that he can go in and do what no one else can because he's managed to do it before. Harry is, in all respect, a teenager, and as much as we all hope that he's finally learned from his mistakes, he probably still hasn't.

Well put Killian. I'm hoping this is the hindsight that Sirius's death will give him. This is the first time he's had a direct consequence for his actions where Voldemort is concerned. Admittedly, Cedric died in GoF, but there is no way Harry could've foreseen or avoided that, it was out of his control. However, he willfully went to the MoM after Sirius, putting Sirius in danger, and Sirius died as a consequence of that action. I think we will see a mentally older Harry in Book 6, hopefully....



freshwater - Nov 22, 2003 6:28 am (#67 of 2971)

I don't mean to butt in and change the subject, but...I guess I am! I'd like to respond to some earlier posts on this thread addressing how much magical knowledge or power Harry has, and whether or not he will grow into a powerful enough wizard to be able to defeat LV on his own. After several days of mulling over, I finally realized that Harry has never defeated LV with the power of his magic....it has always come about through some positive character trait or moral response. Consider...

In SS, Harry used no magic on LV...well, some magic may have gotten him to the confrontration, but once there, it was Harry's purity of heart or purity of intent which enabled him to get the stone, and his quick thinking which enabled him to take advantage of the "burning skin" phenomenon.

In CoS, if was Harry's expression of loyalty to Dumbledore which called Fawkes...bringing the hat...containing the sword, etc.

In PoA,...hmmmmm....my theory is breaking down a bit here: perhaps someone else can help me out? LV is not directly defeated...perhaps the long-term effects of this book's ending will not be apparent until book 6 or 7? My best thought is that Harry's understanding or insight enabled him to grasp the logical outcome of Lupin's and Black's intent to kill PP: they would be murderers, and his parents would not have wanted that for their dearest friends (not to mention a couple of Harry's few caretakers). When I first read this, I thought that not many adults, let alone teenagers, would have figured this out in the midst of such a turbulent situation. This also has the effect of creating a bond or life-debt between PP and himself, which we are led to believe will be significant at some later point in the series.

In GoF, Harry's use of magic kept him alive until the Priori Incantatum kicked in...then it was Harry's presence of mind--self control--will power which enabled him to move the beads back to LV's wand and so bring out the "shades" or "echoes" of good guys who had been killed by LV and who were able to help Harry escape. I suppose LV was not actually defeated here...but he was thwarted in his attempt/desire to kill Harry.

In OoP, again LV was not actully defeated, but his intent was thwarted by Harry's capacity for love (for Sirius...ironically the very thing that brought Harry into LV's clutches in the MoM to start with). Later, in his conversation with Luna Lovegood, it is his own capacity for compassion and empathy for Luna (her possessions taken and hidden by other) that allowed him to begin healing from the pain and loss of Sirius.

In book 6...can we predict then that LV will not be defeated, but will in some way be thwarted? And, not by magic so much, as by some other positive character trait of Harry's? What remains to be revealed about his character (internally...not as a book character)?

One of my favorite things about Harry is how, when in circumstances with seemingly no escape, and when he has no faint clue what to do next, he keeps on keeping on...he just keeps doing whatever he can, moment by moment, to persevere or endure...until help arrives or LV screws up.

Finally, I believe that it is JKR's intent for this 7-book series to culminate in a message of this sort: "There is no magical solution to the evil and hatred and self-absorbtion in the world (HP or muggle). Evil can only be defeated by the actions resulting from purity of heart, loyalty, understanding and insight, self-control, compassion and empathy, perseverance and endurance(add in traits from books 6 and 7). The sort of "magic" that any muggle is capable of exercising (in HP world or muggle world). And....once the focus of all evil is destroyed (aka Hitler, bin Laden, Lord Voldemort, etc.) there will remain aspects of that evil in the everyday world which must be unendingly opposed, day in and day out, by these same characteristics."

What do you think?



popkin - Nov 22, 2003 8:27 am (#68 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 22, 2003 8:34 am

freshwater, I think you make some excellent observations about what has saved Harry so far - but don't forget he's also had a fair amount of good luck (karma if you will, or what goes around comes around). And, as you say, JKR will probably sum up her series with a moral statement through one of the characters - Hermione, maybe, as she pursues her writing career. But, at some point I think we are going to see Harry come into his own, magically speaking.

The threat of LV will be more real to Harry than it's ever been before, now that Sirius has been murdered; Professor McGonagall has sworn to do whatever it takes to help Harry to become an Auror; and, someone will need to rise up to take Dumbledore's place as the champion of righteousness when he either retires or dies, and Harry seems the most logical choice. Over the next two books, Harry is going to buckle down and become a very serious student, and he's going to become a very powerful wizard. But, he still has a few issues to work out before that happens.



SJ Rand - Nov 22, 2003 9:56 am (#69 of 2971)

Killian,

It's not only teenagers who think they're the center of the universe and who refuse to learn from their mistakes. I'd say eighty percent of all adults easily fit into that description all the time, and one hundred percent fit into it at least part of the time.

popkin,

I agree with what you said about Harry winning through luck. He's also had a lot of help each time, which I've mentioned before and will avoid going into particulars about again.

I hope your assessment that >>"Harry is going to buckle down and become a very serious student, and he's going to become a very powerful wizard." proves true. It's what I'd like to see as well.

Sorry to repeat myself, but while I agree with about Harry "(rising) up to take Dumbledore's place as the champion of righteousness", I don't see him becoming an Auror.

I think he'll end up being made the DADA professor at the end of book seven, which might explain why Dumbledore never finds anyone who lasts more than one term. If you're right about Dumbledore retiring, then McGonagall would move up to Headmistress and Harry would probably take over as head of Gryffindor House.



freshwater - Nov 22, 2003 11:35 am (#70 of 2971)

Popkin wrote: freshwater, I think you make some excellent observations about what has saved Harry so far - but don't forget he's also had a fair amount of good luck (karma if you will, or what goes around comes around)

I agree with everything you said, but couldn't help but recall this quote, "In my experience, there is no such thing as 'luck'." I'm not sure, but I think Obi-Wan Kenobi said this to Hans Solo in the first Star Wars movie, when referring to 'the force'. I'm not trying to make connections with Star Wars, just think that the same philosophy (it's not luck...it's fate, destiny....the choices we make)is at play in JKR's wizarding world.



Killian - Nov 22, 2003 5:28 pm (#71 of 2971)

It's not only teenagers who think they're the center of the universe and who refuse to learn from their mistakes. I'd say eighty percent of all adults easily fit into that description all the time, and one hundred percent fit into it at least part of the time.

SJ Rand,

That's nice to know.

I think he'll end up being made the DADA professor at the end of book seven, which might explain why Dumbledore never finds anyone who lasts more than one term. If you're right about Dumbledore retiring, then McGonagall would move up to Headmistress and Harry would probably take over as head of Gryffindor House.

Rowling's already stated that neither Harry nor Ron will become teachers, though someone in their class definitely will. I'm pretty sure that Hermione was mentioned in an interview somewhere as well, but I couldn't find that one. Anyway, here's where she said it:

Anyway, it’s very exciting. We just love Harry Potter. We’re curious ---- well first of all we can’t wait for Books 4, 5, 6 and 7. But after that, we’re curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher.

Rowling: "Well, because all your kids said ‘hello’ so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven’t given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry’s classmates, though it’s not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----"

Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen?

Rowling: "Do you guys have a guess as to who it is?"

(Kids shouting in background) "Ron"

They say Ron.

Rowling: "No, it’s not Ron. I can’t see Ron as a teacher. No way."

Well, we have just been having such a fun time with Harry Potter and we’re so thrilled that you took our call. We’re just all absolute huge fans. Thank you so much. You make our day everyday.

Here's a link to the interview if you want it:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

As a note, it's towards the end of the interview when she mentions it.



freshwater - Nov 22, 2003 10:55 pm (#72 of 2971)

I'll bet it's Neville, as the new Herbology teacher.



SJ Rand - Nov 23, 2003 10:17 am (#73 of 2971)

Killian: >>Rowling's already stated that neither Harry nor Ron will become teachers

Oh well. I liked the idea while it lasted. Somehow I still don't see him becoming an Auror, but I don't know what else would be left. It's likely that I just don't care for the idea of his working for the Ministry of Magic in any capacity.

Even before Fudge went ballistic, they didn't really seem like the good guys to me. The use of Dementors in Azkaban, even on people convicted of petty crimes, is probably part of what got my nose out of joint.



Killian - Nov 23, 2003 11:14 am (#74 of 2971)

Actually, I read something somewhere that made me think about the whole Azkaban prison thing. Why don't they use Veritaserum when they try to learn who's a death eater and who isn't, as oppose to convicting possibly innocent people like Sirius? It seems to me that it's like the magical equivalent of a lie detector test, but maybe since it is like that there's also a chance that it could be fooled.

And anyway, to go back on topic, I don't like the idea of him working for the ministry, either, especially after everything that Fudge did in book 5 and because of his use of the dementors. Not to mention it'd be way too obvious, and Rowling never likes to make anything very obvious.



SJ Rand - Nov 23, 2003 12:07 pm (#75 of 2971)

I wonder if there wouldn't be a potion or spell that could block the serum the way Occlumency can block Legimency. When it's said that there's no way to block the AK curse, it makes me think that's unusual.

Yes, it does seem that Harry becoming an Auror would be too obvious, but what else is really left? Unless Dumbledore does retire as others have guessed, and Harry joins him as an apprentice.

I'll admit that the seeming lack of higher education, beyond what I think of as high school, has bothered me for quite some time. Hmmm. I was going to say more on that, but it really should have it's own thread. Too far off topic here.



Denise P. - Nov 23, 2003 2:41 pm (#76 of 2971)

I started a new thread to discuss Veritaserum on, scroll down to Magical Items



zixyer - Nov 24, 2003 2:05 am (#77 of 2971)

At the end of the book, I know it's kind of obvious, but wasn't it clever how JKR took Harry through all the stages of coping with death?

Denial/Shock: Wanting to go through the veil after Sirius
Anger: Screaming at Dumbledore and breaking his stuff
Bargaining: Deluding himself into thinking that he could still talk to Sirius through the mirror, and then going to see Sir Nicholas, trying to convince himself that Sirius will come back as a ghost
Guilt: I don't have the book with me right now, but I'm sure there's some description of Harry feeling responsible for what happened
Depression: Not wanting to talk to anyone, feeling like he'd never be cheerful again
Acceptance: When he finally talks to Luna



Peregrine - Nov 24, 2003 8:19 am (#78 of 2971)

Thanks for pointing that out, zixyer. I expected him to go through the stages during the summer and it being long and drawn out…I hadn’t realized he already hit each stage in some capacity.

Why hasn’t Harry ever considered playing professional Quidditch? If Wood could get onto a team, why not Harry?



Lenka - Nov 24, 2003 8:53 am (#79 of 2971)

Because Harry has a "saving-people thing"??? Just quoting Hermione, don't take me too seriously...



HP Fan - Nov 24, 2003 12:43 pm (#80 of 2971)

zixyer - thanks for that, its really helpful. I had vaguely registered that Harry was going through the stages of grief. But it rams it home when its written down in such a way



boop - Nov 24, 2003 1:16 pm (#81 of 2971)

zixyer- thanks, I could relate to what Harry was going through. I read Ootp for the first time in Sept. I was reading the part about Sirius being killed, when I found out my friend was killed by a drunk driver. I know Harry is not real, but what he was going through was real.



Killian - Nov 24, 2003 3:26 pm (#82 of 2971)

Even though Harry's not real, he seems it because each of us can relate to him. Each of us has been through at least one of the experiences he has been through, even if it hasn't been in a magical sense, and so that's what makes the books so great--it's because you can relate to the characters while you're reading. And boop, sorry about your friend. I know what it's like to lose someone who means a lot to you, and so I, too, could really relate to the feelings that Harry felt in the end.



HP Fan - Nov 27, 2003 12:24 pm (#83 of 2971)

Well said Killian - take a bow! :-)

That's the gift a good writer has - of making you empathise with the characters and they do that by creating a world, situation and characters that are believable. 10 points to JKR. Boop - I'm sorry to hear about your friend - I know what you're going through I lost my Nanna two months ago and like Killian can relate to Harry's feelings.



eggplant - Nov 29, 2003 2:03 pm (#84 of 2971)

I hear a lot of talk about how Harry is so sweet he could never kill anyone, well, I would be very surprised and disappointed if Rowling caves in to the politically correct crowd and doesn’t have Harry kill Voldemort in book 7, preferably in a bloody and rather horrible manner. Remember this is a war and in wars nice kind decent people kill people, even other nice kind decent people; so killing Voldemort should not cause any ethical dilemma for Harry as the Dark Lord is not nice kind or decent. Yes I know Harry stopped Sirius and Lupin from murdering Wormtail in book3 but he’s stronger and wiser now and I don’t think he’d make the same mistake again.

Eggplant



SJ Rand - Nov 29, 2003 2:43 pm (#85 of 2971)

Eggplant, I made a similar point about Harry killing Voldemort, but you know he just might not have it in him.

Remember just before Voldemort entered the battle at the MoM in OotP? Harry seemed dead set upon making Bellatrix pay for Sirius, and hit her with a Cruciatus curse... which she laughed off. Not because he was weak, but because, as she said "You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it---righteous anger won't hurt me for long".

Maybe for Rowling, not killing is even more important than winning against the ultimate evil... although I really do want to see Voldemort shredded.



A-is-for-Amy - Nov 29, 2003 3:18 pm (#86 of 2971)

Maybe what JKR is trying to tell is that Ultimate Evil has to be countered by Ultimate Good? I think that Voldemort will die at the end, and that Harry will beat him, but not necessarily kill tim... or maybe a mercy killing will be the answer to "either must die at the hand of the other"?



timrew - Nov 29, 2003 4:58 pm (#87 of 2971)

Harry will beat him, but not necessarily kill tim...

Why would Harry want to kill me, Amy?



wormsé - Nov 29, 2003 5:06 pm (#88 of 2971)

::sniggers:: I was wondering the same thing...



Sly Girl - Nov 29, 2003 5:15 pm (#89 of 2971)

I hear a lot of talk about how Harry is so sweet he could never kill anyone, well, I would be very surprised and disappointed if Rowling caves in to the politically correct crowd and doesn’t have Harry kill Voldemort in book 7

Not killing someone is politically correct now? Wow. Imagine that. And I just thought it was good morals not to.

Truth of the matter is, JKR already has her ending in mind and since this was conceived of many years ago, I can hardly see how whatever she does could be considered to be any sort of political- correct or otherwise.



timrew - Nov 29, 2003 5:32 pm (#90 of 2971)

I thought I was alone in thinking that Harry was well right when he 'Crucioed' Bellatrix, the annoying little witch!

I think Harry should turn Voldemort into an inside-out ferret: then into a man who desperately needs a wee (he can leave him like this for a week): then into a pathetic comedian whose audience refuses to laugh at him: then into a flying Ford Anglia which is cruising at 30,000 feet when it runs out of petrol: then into a tom cat that has just had the operation.....

Then he can Crucio him, Imperio him and Avada Kedavra him at the same time, just for a laugh. And then, if he's still alive, he can kill him.



I Am Used Vlad - Nov 29, 2003 7:13 pm (#91 of 2971)

Harry could not bring himself to kill Sirius in PoA. Nor could he effectively torture Bellatrix with the Crucio curse in OotP. But this doesn't mean that Harry is too sweet to kill anyone. Had he killed Sirius, it would have been to avenge the murder of his parents. Likewise, his attempt to Crucio Bellatrix was driven by his desire to avenge the death of Sirius. These examples indicate that Harry is incapable of murder and torture for vengence.

However, when Riddle was stealing Ginny's life in CoS, Harry had no problem stabbing the diary and destroying Riddle. Granted, Riddle wasn't a "real" person, but it still shows that Harry reacts differently when lives are on the line.

To sum up, Harry is a moral person. That is why he stopped himself from killing Sirius (Crookshanks helped, too, but that is another issue) and failed to torture Bellatrix. But I don't see him having any trouble killing Voldemort, or any other DE, for that matter, in order to save lives.



Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 30, 2003 8:26 am (#92 of 2971)

"I think Harry should turn Voldemort into an inside-out ferret: then into a man who desperately needs a wee (he can leave him like this for a week): then into a pathetic comedian whose audience refuses to laugh at him: then into a flying Ford Anglia which is cruising at 30,000 feet when it runs out of petrol: then into a tom cat that has just had the operation.....

Then he can Crucio him, Imperio him and Avada Kedavra him at the same time, just for a laugh. And then, if he's still alive, he can kill him."

Tim, is it me or are there anger issues there with Voldie or what? Do you need to go see Dumbledore for some anger management? lol



timrew - Nov 30, 2003 9:33 am (#93 of 2971)

I just can't stand bullies, Anastasia!



SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 9:49 am (#94 of 2971)

timrew: I thought I was alone in thinking that Harry was well right when he 'Crucioed' Bellatrix, the annoying little witch!

If you've been following the Unforgivable Curse thread, I can see how you'd feel that way. I had to stop myself from replying to it, since I found it just too annoying for various reasons.

Truth be told, I expected him to AK her, wasn't disappointed when he Crucioed her, but was disappointed when she shook it off because his mind set wasn't hard enough to make it stick.

There's probably some culture clash adding to this issue. In the U.S. we're among the last few civilized nations that have a death penalty. Some (many) of us don't like it, but we're at least somewhat used to the idea. The UK abolished it quite some time ago. That can't help but add fuel to the fire of this type debate.

Also there's the conflict in wizard world accepted behavior verses justice system punishment.

What's unforgivable? Taking someone's life (AK), stealing someone's free will (Imperious), and causing pain for the sake of causing pain (Cruciatus). But the Ministry uses (or used) Dementors for their prison guards, guarding every type of imprisonable criminal, not just murderers or even just violent criminals.

What do the Dementors do? They steal free will (you can only think despairing thoughts, not what you want to think). They cause pain for the sake of causing pain (only despair is left in the mind). And they steal life because someone driven insane, which is said to be common and usually happens quickly, is not really alive even though their bodies still breath.

That's an unresolvable conflict. Something is either just or unjust, within given circumstances, not "just" if we do it, but "unforgivable' if you do it.

Harry killing Voldemort on sight would be both just and proper. Harry using any power at his disposal to kill Voldemort in order to save the life of anyone else is not only proper, but laudable.



Hem Hem - Nov 30, 2003 10:37 am (#95 of 2971)

Let's tread this topic carefully, folks. We don't want this discussion to turn into a debate of ethics in real-world justice systems. Not that the conversation has left Harry Potter talk yet, but a political debate around here might turn pretty ugly....



Susurro Notities - Nov 30, 2003 11:47 am (#96 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 30, 2003 11:58 am

Something is either just or unjust, within given circumstances, not just" if we do it, but "unforgivable' if you do it."
I agree with your statement SJ Rand. In the same vein breaking the law is not justified because governmental policies are not consistent. The use of any of the unforgivable curses is not justified by the Ministries use of Dementors.
As I posted on the Unforgivable Curse thread "The desire to punish Bellatrix is understandable both in Harry and in HP fans. I don't want to see Harry become sadistic. I would like to see Harry think out his choices and become a better Wizard so that his righteous anger is consistently effective." I might add that I would like to see the vanquishing of Voldemort be a choice Harry makes not just a reaction to a situation based on his anger with Voldemort.
In our society killing is just in the context of war, if that is true in the wizarding world it would change the nature of this discussion. In deciding to fight a war one is hopeful that those fighting and those who send them to fight have made a conscious decision, based on a deep understanding of the situation. I would like to see a strong, thoughtful, righteous Harry make choices not just reactions in the future.

As an aside - I wish you would post your thoughts about the unforgivable curse on that thread SJ Rand. You always have thoughtful things to say that spark interesting debate.



SJ Rand - Nov 30, 2003 2:38 pm (#97 of 2971)

Susurro Notities, thank you, that was very nice of you to say.

A reaction, even a seemingly spontaneous one, is the result of choice. Choices made before the need to react arose.

Harry chasing down Bellatrix seems like a spontaneous reaction or reflex, but it isn't. That reaction was trained and built into him by five years of pain, frustration, and injustice. Fourteen if you include the Dursleys.

From the "casual" cruelty of Vernon, Draco, and Snape, to the more active cruelty of Dudley, Voldemort, and Umbridge, through to the dismissal of reality by The Daily Prophet and the MoM, every aspect of his life trained him to make the choice he did.

In a very real way, Harry has been trained to reject authority because authority not only rejects him, but actively undermines his efforts while exposing him to ridicule. Even Dumbledore let him down in many ways. He's been taught that he is the law, because nobody in authority has been willing to be the law for him.

Of course he had to chose to pursue Bellatrix. Who else was going to do it? In Harry's experience there is one type of justice: vigilante justice. The only thing the "real" justice system has done is hurt both him and those around him.

If we expect Harry to behave in a "just" manner, Harry will first have to be taught that justice exists and can be relied upon. The precise opposite of everything he's been taught so far.



Susurro Notities - Nov 30, 2003 7:26 pm (#98 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 30, 2003 7:27 pm

SJ Rand,
Although I agree that Harry's responses are based on his less than ideal upbringing, unfair treatment by authorities, and lack of examples of reliable justice I cannot agree that his response to Bellatrix is a choice. Nor do I agree that "A reaction, even a seemingly spontaneous one, is the result of choice. Choices made before the need to react arose."
The word choice indicates election of one from two or more alternatives. The Merriam Webster dictionary further defines choice as "...the opportunity or privilege of choosing freely..." and "requires exercise of judgment". You have neatly made the case that Harry's experience has not given him much freedom to explore nor allowed him to see alternatives. Harry doesn't exercise judgment he reacts based on his experience.
At the end of OoP Dumbledore suggests, as you do, that Harry needs guidance and acknowledges his failure in that regard. I hope JKR will provide Harry with more information and guidance from Dumbledore, Lupin, Moody and others in the next book. I also hope that Harry will learn to choose his course of action. I suppose that Harry's ability to learn and choose will be directly related to his ability to mature and see the gray between the black and white.



S.E. Jones - Nov 30, 2003 11:02 pm (#99 of 2971)

I'd like to weigh in on whether or not Harry would be able to bring himself to kill Voldemort. I think a distinction needs to be made between killing and murder, between killing in cold blood and killing on the battlefield (and JK has already stated that this is definately a war). Also, I see Harry as being someone who is righteous and moral enough to be willing to stain his own hands to prevent his friends hands from being stained, be willing to kill to prevent them from having to kill or from being killed themselves.... I think, in the end, if he has to, he will be willing to kill Voldemort and will be at peace with the decision....



Denise P. - Dec 1, 2003 6:27 am (#100 of 2971)

, I see Harry as being someone who is righteous and moral enough to be willing to stain his own hands to prevent his friends hands from being stained, be willing to kill to prevent them from having to kill or from being killed themselves

I agree Sarah, Harry is going to look at the big picture and see that killing Voldemort is going to prevent further deaths and that will allow him to overcome any personal objections to actually doing the deed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. (geek alert! geek alert!)



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SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 9:32 am (#101 of 2971)

Susurro Notities: >> The word choice indicates election of one from two or more alternatives.,

He did have two or more alternatives, and all reactions are choices based on experience, training, or knowledge.

Two people hear the sound of a nearby gunshot. One dives for cover. The other just looks around. The one who "ducked" knows what a nearby gunshot means, and chose not to be an easy target. The other hasn't been exposed to guns being fired around him, and chooses to stand there looking to see what's happening.

These are seemingly spontaneous reactions, but both were chosen actions based on previous experience. Every reaction is a choice made from prior knowledge or experience, no matter how spontaneous it seems.

Harry chose to go after Bellatrix. Other choices included: yelling "Somebody GET her!"; shrieking "We'll get you for this!" while not moving; standing there crying; staring blankly at her retreating back; and calling for Dumbledore to help him. He chose to pursue her because his experience has trained him to act, not wait for someone else to act, since "someone else" never does. He chose justice (revenge), and "knew" that only he would get that justice (revenge).

I apologize for repeating myself, but the only training that could have moderated Harry's actions was being "trained" that other people will do something constructive.

Here's a random hypothetical: Had Harry not chosen to go after Bellatrix, what would have happened to her? Nobody else was trying to stop her, and when he caught up to her she was about to exit though the portal.

The answer to that question displays whether his choice was based on reality or self delusion.

S.E. Jones, I'm in total agreement with you on all the points you made above.

Killing Voldemort could never be in "cold blood" since Harry knows Voldemort will kill him and anyone else that interferes. He's seen Voldemort order Cedric's murder as casually as we might order a cup of coffee.

More casually, actually, since I can get emotional over getting my morning coffee.



Weeny Owl - Dec 1, 2003 9:55 am (#102 of 2971)

Here, SJ... have some much needed caffeine.

I agree with you about Harry learning that he's been trained to act since the elusive "someone else" never does.

He's known all along in many ways just how dangerous Voldie and the Death Eaters are, but now he's seen that he isn't the only one at risk. He knew it on one level because of his parents and Cedric's murders, but they didn't have quite the emotional impact on him that Sirius's murder did. Now he knows on a visceral level just what is at stake.

That he is disturbed by knowing he'll have to eliminate Voldie shows that while he may be willing to do what must be done, he won't lower himself to the level of the Death Eaters and just kill, as you said, SJ, as casually as we might order a cup of coffee.

He'll face what he has to because he's a courageous Gryffindor, but it won't be something easy for him. He'll never have the attitude of someone who can just "kill the spare."



Fawkes8U - Dec 1, 2003 10:08 am (#103 of 2971)

I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this in another thread or not, but the prophecy says that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord...etc..." What if the "the one" is Harry AND Neville? I mean, if Voldemort can possess Harry...Why can't Neville possess Harry or vice-versa? Then together, they would be "the one"? It is interesting that Harry & Neville were stragetically placed together, by themselves at the end of OOP. Is this a foreshadowing of things to come?



Susurro Notities - Jul 9, 2004 10:14 am (#104 of 2971)

SJ Rand,
I understand that you are saying that all actions are choices. In your earlier post you stated that Harry had experienced a harsh upbringing with little authority support. So although Harry made a choice it was a choice based on a rather limited experience. Is that then really a choice? Real choices happen when one has a deep and broad understanding of the alternatives available. I might choose black coffee because I have never been exposed to capuccino. I have selected but I have done so with limited resources. A choice but an ill informed one that is more reflexive than thoughtful.
I think we are having a semantics discussion SJ as we seem to agree that with further experience, information, and I would add the ability to trust others, Harry might see that "....people will do something constructive." Then Harry would have real choices not just reflexive choices.



SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 12:39 pm (#105 of 2971)

Weeny Owl: >>He'll face what he has to because he's a courageous Gryffindor, but it won't be something easy for him. He'll never have the attitude of someone who can just "kill the spare."

You're right, he won't. That's what will always set him apart from Voldemort and his people. As you said, Harry doesn't want to kill him. Also, Harry took no pleasure from the Crucio curse he'd cast, which is why it was ineffective.

Mainly, he's only doing what needs to be done since nobody else seems willing or able to do it.

Susurro,

Yes, we're really not that far apart on this. I'm guessing that your biggest stumbling block is Harry's use of a forbidden curse, while I just don't understand why they're forbidden in the first place. I won't use the space here, but I could make many arguments in favor of them, and not just as compared to Azkaban.

I'm sorry that my earlier reference was unclear.

I didn't mean that Harry had limited experiences upon which to base his choice. He has a lot of experience. For fourteen years his experience has taught him that authority doesn't help him, only hurts him. By OotP even Dumbledore has hurt him in various ways. DD had reasons, but Harry didn't know that.

>I think we are having a semantics discussion SJ as we seem to agree that with further experience, information, and I would add the ability to trust others, Harry might see that "....people will do something constructive." Then Harry would have real choices not just reflexive choices.

It's probably too late for that. I don't think there's anyone alive who can overcome his lifetime of training... if they even want to.



Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 1:49 pm (#106 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 1, 2003 1:57 pm

Of course, Harry has had 15 years of experience - unfortunately it was much the same experience over and over, lack of familial warmth, unfair treatment by authorities, and lack of examples of reliable justice. Just as the coffee drinker has had lots of coffee - all black. Neither Harry nor the coffee drinker has enough different types of experience to make anything but reflexive choices.

I don't think there's anyone alive who can overcome his lifetime of training... if they even want to. Oh that is a sad thought. I think many people can and do overcome what they have been taught. Certainly we all retain something of our childhood but it is very common for people to redirect their moral compass, change churches and even religions, incorporate other cultures' customs, and to consciously work to overcome character flaws. This as I see it is not only common it is what constitutes adult development. To not just accept what one has been handed but to examine the world, learn, and make choices. Hopefully wise choices. At 15 Harry is just entering the time of life when exploration of the world leads to adult development.

You are correct in stating that I find Harry's use of an unforgivable curse disturbing. I am baffled as to why you would say "I just don't understand why they're forbidden in the first place." Most if not all cultures have laws that forbid murder, enslavement, and torture. It seems appropriate that the WW would abhor these behaviors as well. As this is off topic here I once again urge you to post in the Unforgivable Curse thread - would undoubtably make for a lively discussion.



SJ Rand - Dec 1, 2003 3:12 pm (#107 of 2971)

Susurro Notities: >>"I don't think there's anyone alive who can overcome his lifetime of training... if they even want to." Oh that is a sad thought.

No, not really. Many people become police officers because of similar reasons. Some altruistic few become politicians for the same reason. If Harry were to go into the Ministry, you could expect genuine justice, not a facsimile of justice used to hide nothing more than greed and a desire for power.

Dudley Dursley has gotten everything he's wanted his entire life. He loves authority because authority has always been quite good to him. Which of the two would you prefer to see writing and enforcing laws for a whole society?

>I think many people can and do overcome what they have been taught.

But Harry hasn't merely been taught, he's been trained. Not unlike a soldier. All the way back in PS/SS it was conceded that Dumbledore knew what was going on with the stone, but wanted to give Harry a chance to take care of the matter, Even the kids realized this. Also in PS/SS, Dumbledore knew the Dursley's were foul beings. McGonagall mentioned it before Harry even arrived.

Dumbledore chose to leave Harry there all the same. Better that Harry should experience the hardship than the fame. Why?

Dumbledore could also have taken the Dursley's aside at any point and told them in no uncertain terms that Harry was to be treated properly. He never did, although he knew how they were treating him. If nothing else, his spies would have told him.

But he let it stand.

Now, think of Snape's treatment of Harry. Is Dumbledore a total fool who can't even see what's going on right under his nose in his own school, or does he choose not to take the Potions master aside and tell him to tone it down?

When the Ministry unjustly flagged Harry for using magic when Dobby was the one who did it, did this get lost on him? Or does he like Harry fearing, then later resenting, the Ministry?

Far too much has been allowed to pass, seemingly unnoticed by Dumbledore, for this to have all been accidental. Dumbledore needed a warrior, and Dumbledore made one.

>I am baffled as to why you would say "I just don't understand why they're forbidden in the first place."

I'll pop into the Unforgivable Curse thread in a day or two and go into my reasoning there.



S.E. Jones - Dec 1, 2003 3:35 pm (#108 of 2971)

I quite agree, Susurro, people are often able to overcome such things, such as their childhood baggage, and "rise above it". Traditional behaviorists thought that humans were ruled by conditioned responses but that theory has been disproven many times over (just ask the humanists ), mainly based on man's ability to reason, the thing that seperates him from the animals. As an example, when a child is placed in an extreme upbringing, he will most likely react one of two ways, he will follow the conditioned response and become like the caregiver or make a conscious effort to become the exact opposite. A child raised with an alcoholic parent (and I mean an extreme alcoholic parent) will most likely either become an alcoholic himself or never touch a drop of liquor in a conscious effort not to become that parent. One pole or the other, yes, but there is a choice present. Harry can certainly overcome any "training," moral or otherwise, because he has the capacity for reason.



freshwater - Dec 1, 2003 6:36 pm (#109 of 2971)

Gotta say "Thanks!", S.E., S.J. and S.N. (do we see a pattern here?) for the fascinating discussion above. I'd like to weigh in and agree with, well, all of you! (decisive is not my middle name) S.J., I think I see your point about Harry not being able to escape his "training"... this is not just learned behavior, it's become his second nature or instinct. And, yes, S.E. and S.N., I agree that people can overcome a tremendous amount of 'training' or previous experience in their lives. But it can often take years for them to even become aware of the need to change some aspect of their behavior or outlook; much less be able to make any sort of lasting change. Given the 'training' that Harry has received in his short life, he will probably always have a tendency to "save people" and be very self-reliant in every situation.



Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 6:38 pm (#110 of 2971)

S.E.,
Way back on post #99 you stated: "Also, I see Harry as being someone who is righteous and moral enough to be willing to stain his own hands to prevent his friends hands from being stained, be willing to kill to prevent them from having to kill or from being killed themselves.... I think, in the end, if he has to, he will be willing to kill Voldemort and will be at peace with the decision...."
You have encapsulated the elements that will go into the most important choice Harry has to make. I think for Harry to be "...at peace with the decision" he will have to mature enough to clearly see the alternatives and make a decision not just a Voldemort is bad reaction.
At the end of OoP we see a confused Harry who is searching for answers. I am hopeful that this is the turning point in Harry's development. I am also hoping that he will seek information and comfort from many sources. The philosophical - Dumbledore, the practical - Moody, his parents friend - Lupin, his surrogate family - the Weasleys.



S.E. Jones - Dec 1, 2003 8:08 pm (#111 of 2971)

I couldn't agree more Susurro. And Freshwater, I agree, I don't think Harry will get much chance to take stock of his overall behavior too much, but then again, he's only 15, his life isn't set in stone as yet so he could easily make changes if he so chose, I've seen it done before. However, I don't think it will be done because there simply isn't anyone else to step into his place. Harry is the one, the person who is marked to bring the Dark Lord down. JKR has made this rather clear (please no more "Neville could be.." arguments here, there are other threads for that) so I don't think she'll be changing her mind now.



Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 9:40 pm (#112 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 1, 2003 9:48 pm

freshwater,
I agree that Harry "...will probably always have a tendency to 'save people' and be very self-reliant in every situation." I just think Harry needs to understand why he saves people and how to deal with Voldemort in a just way that does not compromise his integrity.



SJ Rand - Dec 2, 2003 9:16 am (#113 of 2971)

S.E. Jones: >>And Freshwater, I agree, I don't think Harry will get much chance to take stock of his overall behavior too much, but then again, he's only 15, his life isn't set in stone as yet so he could easily make changes if he so chose, I've seen it done before. However, I don't think it will be done because there simply isn't anyone else to step into his place.

Putting aside the psychoanalysis for a moment, your comment above is really what it all comes down to. He won't change because his character type is required for the story.

And, as Freshwater pointed out: "people can overcome a tremendous amount of 'training' or previous experience in their lives. But it can often take years for them to even become aware of the need to change some aspect of their behavior or outlook; much less be able to make any sort of lasting change."

Apart from an epiphany, something that happens far more in books than reality, this is a good assessment. If Rowling decides to do a follow up book set many years from the present HP time line, the Harry we'll meet then will be a very different person.

Susurro: >> I just think Harry needs to understand why he saves people and how to deal with Voldemort in a just way that does not compromise his integrity

This presumes that there is a way to deal with Voldemort "justly". Don't forget that to be "just", one needs to have more power than the person one is trying to be just towards. Right now Harry isn't even close to having as much power as Voldemort. For Harry to have more power, from which he can chose to be "just", Voldemort will need to be somehow incapacitated, even if only temporarily. We'll have to see how Rowling decides to play it out.

If Harry suddenly applies himself to being a powerful wizard, he might be going for a "just" solution.

Harry can also finally bridge the gap between Slytherin and the other houses by not being so proud of his nobility that he ignores so called Dark Arts as a possible means to a good end. There has to be some less obvious reason we keep reading about how Harry almost went into Slytherin. Power isn't evil, only the way power is used. Harry has already used a Slytherin trait that everyone considered either outright evil or a sign of being evil, Parseltongue, for a good purpose.



Susurro Notities - Dec 2, 2003 10:23 am (#114 of 2971)

...he's only 15, his life isn't set in stone as yet so he could easily make changes if he so chose, I've seen it done before. However, I don't think it will be done because there simply isn't anyone else to step into his place.
Harry's taking stock of his life and understanding his motivation and alternatives does not mean that he cannot fulfill his destiny. The complexity of the prophecy's wording has spawned serious debate about vanquish vs die at the other's hand. When Dumbledore says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom." (OoP p. 814 US) he is letting us know that there are alternatives to killing that would enact the equivalent of death, death of the spirit, death of the mind, death of magical ability in other words death of the person Voldemort is without physically killing him.
The combination of Harry's gaining knowledge, magical ability, and an understanding of himself would, I believe, result in his ability to see the alternatives and to fulfill the prophecy without compromising his integrity.

Don't forget that to be just", one needs to have more power than the person one is trying to be just towards. Right now Harry isn't even close to having as much power as Voldemort."
Although it is difficult to enact justice without power it has been done. Civil disobedience and political revolution are two examples of this. Additionally Harry displays more power as time goes on. I do not think we have any knowledge of the extent of Harry's power. As I stated in my previous post Harry has many resources for developing power and sharpening the skills he now has: "The philosophical - Dumbledore, the practical - Moody, his parents friend - Lupin, his surrogate family - the Weasleys." I might add Snape, Hagrid, Hermione, and the members of the OoP to this list.



SJ Rand - Dec 2, 2003 11:19 am (#115 of 2971)

You're not talking about justice now, Sussero, you're talking about political upheaval, a somewhat different subject which usually comes about due to the lack of justice... or food.

If I don't have power over you, I can't be "just" towards you. I can be kind, or fair, or nice, but I can't be "just".

Even in your examples of civil disobedience and revolution, those doing it have some amount of power over the society. The power to overthrow. The power to disrupt. For civil disorder to work, you need power in the form of large numbers of very dedicated people, or there's no effect.

The biggest disagreement you and I have here is that you think Harry should change, should become more moderate or more merciful to those who killed his family and want to kill him.

I don't.

He's facing murderers who have used every means at their disposal to cause pain, suffering, misery, and fear. They killed people, and families, just to frighten others into obeying them. Five times Voldemort has tried to kill Harry. His "memory" tried to kill several students through Ginny, then tried to kill her. He had Cedric killed for no reason.

The only mercy Voldemort deserves is euthanasia. As Dumbledore said, there are far worse things than death. So let Harry be merciful and just kill Voldemort so he doesn't have to suffer something far worse. That would be noble enough for me. Then he could do something about Fudge.....



Orchal Fireb - Dec 2, 2003 11:25 am (#116 of 2971)

I agree Harry killing Voldie in a respectable manner, not aa cowardly avadra kedavra, would be a good way to put him out of his misery, I think it would be very anticlimatic to make Harry imprison Voldie. Harry should not kill him because of Hatred either but more out of pity for Tom Riddle and for the people that Voldie permanently hurt, like Neville. PS I too think Fudge should be punished, I would like him to have Arthur's job, and Arthur to have his.



Susurro Notities - Dec 2, 2003 12:46 pm (#117 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 2, 2003 12:49 pm

To be just is a virtue. Those without power may not have the ability to enact justice but they can most certainly be just. There is power in virtue, in being just. Small grass roots organizations that evolve into civil disobedience and political revolution are emboldened by the injustice of the powerful to fight for sweeping social change just as Harry and the OoP are.

The biggest disagreement you and I have here is that you think Harry should change, should become more moderate or more merciful to those who killed his family and want to kill him.
You mistake my argument. I do not believe that Harry "...should become more moderate or merciful..." My examples (Examples that are not more merciful or moderate - just different) of other ways one might vanquish Voldemort were merely to illustrate that there are decisions Harry will have to make. He should be prepared as best he can to make those decisions. I do not want to see Harry hurl an unforgivable curse out of, as Orchal Fireb so aptly said, "Hatred". Rather I would like him to have a greater understanding of his motivation, the alternatives he has, his allies, his strengths, and his weaknesses so that he has the basis to make informed choices.



S.E. Jones - Dec 2, 2003 2:53 pm (#118 of 2971)

I agree Susurro. I think he will end up killing Voldemort, mainly because I can't see any other way for Voldemort to end and do justice to all the lives he cut short, but I think, when the time comes, Harry will be at peace with the decision. I do not feel he will be compromising his integrity because I think he will have had the opportunity to look his choices over and because he will be acting, not out of Hatred, but with the Wizarding world's interests at heart.... Hm, I think that made sense....



Devika - Dec 3, 2003 8:21 am (#119 of 2971)

I agree, Voldemort will have to die at the 'hands of Harry' in the end, though I can't really picture him using Avada Kedavra- not because he has demonstrated so often that killing and hurting another one is not his way of doing things, but more because of literary compulsions. I mean Avada Kedavra would almost come as a sort of anticlimax since thats the only way of killing in the WW that we are aware of. I think it'll be more in JRK's style to spring upon us some relatively unknown/hidden way by which Harry could conquer Voldemort - maybe some 'brand of ancient magic' which 'Voldemort has always underestimated to his cost'.



eggplant - Dec 3, 2003 9:13 am (#120 of 2971)

I don’t know where people got the idea that Avada Kedavra is the only way to kill a wizard, a properly placed chain saw would do it. If you prefer magic try “Acio Voldemort’s heart”, if he was unable to block the spell it would be a colorful was to end the series.

Eggplant



Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 9:56 am (#121 of 2971)

I don't think a chain saw will works for Big V's, his body died in Potter's house as his AK fire back, but his spirit didn't died. But I agree with you, to kill a wizard, no need to use magic, common muggles weapons can do the trick, even bows and arrows ^_^ .



SJ Rand - Dec 3, 2003 10:51 am (#122 of 2971)

Susurro,

No matter what he learns about himself or Voldemort, in the end he can only have two motivations: revenge and prevention. Most people will consider prevention the heroic one and, since this series is slanted toward young people, he'll be heroic.

He'll never be very powerful, magic wise. That, I'm reluctantly forced to admit, is not what this series is about, despite what many of us thought we'd see when we read the opening pages of the first book.

So if it isn't about his power, then it's about his human, or humane, virtues with everything else just being the ride he takes to hone those virtues.

As I finished my re-read of CoS last night, I was forced to admit to myself that I've been debating about a character that doesn't exist. I mean doesn't even exist in the pages of the story. I knew this, but kept denying it because I wanted him to exist in the story. Unfortunately for me, and probably some other folks, Rowling is writing a character she wants to write, not a character I want to read about or thought I was reading about.

With this realization, my part in this morals debate is over.

We'll get to book seven, Harry will learn and grow emotionally, not magically, and he'll finally manage to overcome Voldemort in whatever kind, loving, and "just" 21st century protagonist way that he does manage to overcome Voldemort. Then Pinocchio will turn into a real boy and live contentedly ever after, having found that love does indeed conquer all.



timrew - Dec 3, 2003 4:06 pm (#123 of 2971)

On the other hand, Book Seven may be entitled, "Harry Potter and the Chain Saw Massacre"



A-is-for-Amy - Dec 3, 2003 5:55 pm (#124 of 2971)

How about Accio Brain? It worked for Ron!



Andrew Hunt - Dec 3, 2003 7:15 pm (#125 of 2971)

All right a long while back in this thread, people were guessing what occupation Harry would take when (or if) he graduates from Hogwarts. Of course, auror is the obvious guess, but I have had a theory since the second book: Harry will be the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher. He would be the perfect instructor because of all the experience he's had AND the D.A., plus auror is a little too obvious. And I also think that Harry will find out he hasn't even done well enough in his OWLS to become an auror.



Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 7:52 pm (#126 of 2971)

According to the Connection Interview, back in 1999, Harry won't become a teacher.

The Connection, October 12th, 1999

Anyway, it’s very exciting. We just love Harry Potter. We’re curious ---- well first of all we can’t wait for Books 4, 5, 6 and 7. But after that, we’re curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher.

JKR : Well, because all your kids said ‘hello’ so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven’t given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry’s classmates, though it’s not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----



Orchal Fireb - Dec 3, 2003 10:04 pm (#127 of 2971)

That sounds like Neville to me!



Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 11:55 pm (#128 of 2971)

Yeah, to me too. Especialy since the kids ask her if it'll be Ron and she answer somthing like "No way !". She was likely think about Hermione. Of course, it could be Lavander, Pavarti, Dean or Seamus, but I have the feeling it will be Neville.



Devika - Dec 4, 2003 2:05 am (#129 of 2971)

How about Lavender or Parvati for Divination?



Neville Longbottom - Dec 4, 2003 5:55 am (#130 of 2971)

I doubt it very much. They like the subject, that's all. Trelawney, in spite of being a fraud most days of her life, made two real predictions, and that's the reason why she's there. Lavender and Parvati haven't shown any talent for Divination at all.



Mrs. Sirius - Dec 4, 2003 11:50 am (#131 of 2971)

tim, you do offer such great insights into this character!



popkin - Dec 6, 2003 1:32 am (#132 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 6, 2003 1:35 am

All Harry's life he's been struggling against something. Hidden away in Godric's Hollow he was probably unaware that he and his family were pitted against Voldemort, but he was born into a great conflict. At the Dursley's, prior to Hogwarts, he was pitted against his own magical nature and struggling to find happiness in a world that utterly rejected him. At Hogwarts, he's become more and more enmeshed in the struggle against LV, and, while he has help from others, the task to vanquish the Dark Lord is solely his.

Once the Dark Lord is vanquished, Harry will experience a freedom he has never known before. He won't be struggling against his inner nature and he won't have this monumental task shadowing every moment of his life. Maybe he'll take a well earned vacation from being a champion of justice, and choose a completely frivolous career - like professional Quidditch seeker.

I would really like to see Harry allow himself to be joyously happy, at least for a while, in a career that's not so serious as auror.



Madame Librarian - Dec 6, 2003 6:17 am (#133 of 2971)

This question I'm posing may have more to do with JKR's "maturing" treatment of the saga, but I wonder if popkin's wish for Harry will play out as she hopes--Harry able to relax, enjoy life out of the limelight, doing something that makes him truly happy--or, in a darker interpretation, with Harry feeling lost and strangely useless now that his worries (LV and the DEs) are gone.

The first outcome (which assumes the war is won by the good guys) is more in keeping with a make-believe world where the "happily ever after" rule kicks in. The second is plausible, too, given JKR's shift in tone and sophistication (somewhere during PoA, I think) to a more mature, real-world view. I believe, with her skill as a writer, she could make a good go of either. Any thoughts to add?

Ciao. Barb



Sly Girl - Dec 6, 2003 9:46 am (#134 of 2971)

I see Harry going either way- the way popkin describes or (and this all hinges on him surviving) I see him sort of feeling lost because he's had so many things taken from him and so many people have made sacrifices on his behalf. He'll feel weighted down by this- this love he feels he never deserved and it will make him surly at best. That's why I think it's important Harry discover or have some sort of deep connection (ie romantic love) with a character, but that could be my romantic tendencies.

He's fought all his life pratically- he fought the Dursley's in his own way and he has faced death repeatedly and by the end, will have faced it again. This has to effect his psyche. Or at the very least, his mood.I could very well see Harry reverting to some sort of angst- but I don't think it's something that will last his whole life.



Weeny Owl - Dec 6, 2003 10:03 am (#135 of 2971)

popkin: I would love to see a truly happy Harry who lives and has a career he enjoys.

Barb: I can see him feeling lost, though, when his quest has ended. It would be an emotional high in some ways, but in other ways, his reason for being is gone. All of the training, the worries, the intensity are gone. He has friends who love him, but as we saw at the end of OotP, there was so much weighing him down that he couldn't talk to his friends.

Sly:

I agree that a deep connection with someone else is necessary for Harry. It wouldn't necessarily have to be romantic, but as we saw with Luna, he will need someone who can understand him.

I could see JKR going either way with Harry... assuming he is still alive at the end.



night41 - Dec 7, 2003 7:40 pm (#136 of 2971)

I really do belive Harry is a powerful wizard. In the first book JKR hinted alot about how powerful Harry would be and also all the very difficult magic he learned all out through the seris. A good bit of people are basing Harry's power level on how well he does in school. We really had no idea how well Harry does in school except for a few notable incidents. We do not have enough information about Harry in real class, not counting History of Magic and Diviations.



Joost! - Dec 8, 2003 2:53 am (#137 of 2971)

Harry could produce a Patronus that could repel a couple of hundred Dementors, but we don't really know if that's normal.



SJ Rand - Dec 8, 2003 9:12 am (#138 of 2971)

night41,

I do hope you turn out to be right, but I wouldn't base much on the first book. It seems to be less connected (to me at least) than books three through five. Also, at the beginning of the first book it was implied that Harry had extraordinary power to resist Voldemort's curse, and ended with it being his mother's charm that saved him. A large contrast from beginning to end.

Joost!,

The Patronus, when he learned it in third year, was described by Lupin as being a very advanced charm, NEWT level. Of course, Harry needed it for Quidditch (Dementors on the field) so he was very determined.

I don't know if this means he's of average ability but can be well above average if he really wants to, or if he's supposed to be well above average all the time but only shows it under pressure. Most of his big confrontation scenes have been too cluttered with other things or people for us to get a clear view of what he can do magically.



Susurro Notities - Dec 8, 2003 3:08 pm (#139 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 8, 2003 3:14 pm

I agree that we don't have a clear picture of Harry's abilities nor of his performance in most classes. I do think that there have been indications,in addition to his patronus, that he is powerful. In GoF (chapter 34) Harry forces the Priori Incantatem connection toward the weak but much more knowledgeable and experienced Voldemort. Dumbledore states "You have shouldered a grown wizard's burden and found yourself equal to it -" (GoF p.699, US). In OoP (p.838) Dumbledore says to Harry "And so we entered your second year at Hogwarts. And once again you met challenges even grown wizards have never faced. Once again you acquitted yourself beyond my widest dreams." Again in OoP (p. 838) Dumbledore says "Young you might be, but you had proved you were exceptional." Dumbledore believes Harry is extraordinary despite his statement that he has watched Harry "... struggling under more burdens than any student who has ever passed though this school..." (OoP p.839, US).
It seems Harry might become a very powerful wizard.



Sinister Kittens - Dec 8, 2003 3:12 pm (#140 of 2971)

Well - he can conjure lumos from a wand not in his physical possession in GoF. I would think that that was an advanced stage of wizadry...



Mrs. Black - Dec 8, 2003 7:21 pm (#141 of 2971)

I think there's a difference between power and cleverness. Hermione is clearly more clever the Harry, she picks everything up very quickly and doesn't seem to need to practice spells, she can usually pick them up out of a book. But, that doesn't mean she's more powerful than Harry. She could come to a place where no matter how well she understands how a charm works she just doesn't have the power to do it. Harry seems to be just the opposite. When he puts his mind to it and is willing to do the work he is able to tap into some pretty serious power. It just takes more effort for him to figure out how to pull it off in the first place.



Tomoé - Dec 8, 2003 7:31 pm (#142 of 2971)

I don't know if Harry is an powerful wizard, but his ability to overcome Imperius curses, even Voldemort's, is quite outstanding.



Devika - Dec 9, 2003 1:42 am (#143 of 2971)

I think the fact that Harry is a powerful wizard is based more on his powerfully strong character and sense of right and wrong, and less on his magical prowess which I believe he has inherited from his parents, whom we can say with a degree of certainty(sp) were powerful.



Joost! - Dec 9, 2003 4:23 am (#144 of 2971)

How do we know Lily or James were powerful? We don't even know how "powerful wizard" is defined.



eggplant - Dec 9, 2003 9:26 am (#145 of 2971)

Well yes I’d say Harry is powerful. Harry is the only one to receive the AK curse and live. Well OK Voldemort did too but Harry just got a minor cut on his forehead while Voldemort nearly died with far more serious injuries. At age eleven with no instruction Harry could fly better than anyone his age and better than most wizards of any age. In the last thousand years only 3 wizards have been able to speak Parseltong. Harry is one of them. Harry could produce a Patronis at a extraordinary young age but more important it was so powerful it awed even Hermione, because the only other wizard she knew who could repel a hundred Dementors was Dumbledore. Harry could easily overcome the Imperious Curse, something even formidable wizards like the real Moody and Crouch junior and senior found extremely difficult to do. For example, Crouch junior struggled against it for over a decade and even then was only partially successful, Harry could triumph over it in just a few minutes.

I can’t think of a better demonstration of pure raw power than the scene in GoF where Harry engages man to man in magical arm wrestling with the most powerful dark wizard in a thousand years and wins. Harry forced those beads of light into Voldemort’s wand not the other way as the dark lord wanted. Voldemort was able to possess Ginny and even a defense against the dark arts teacher for months but when he tried to do the same thing to Harry in the newest book he had to retreat in defeat after just a few seconds.

Eggplant



SJ Rand - Dec 9, 2003 9:38 am (#146 of 2971)

In different sections, James is described as very powerful and as the smartest student at Hogwarts, both times by Dumbledore as I remember. Off hand, I don't recall anything about Lily.

How powerful Harry will show himself to be depends on where Rowling decides to go with the rest of the series. So far the books have been about his bravery, determination, and loyalty, and the loyalty he inspires in a select few others.

In the Voldemort locked wand duel, as has been said, Voldemort was weak. He was newly reborn and he had a lot less to lose. Harry fought for his life, while Voldemort fought from vanity. Voldemort could have had one of the DEs kill Harry. In fact, he stopped them from doing it because he wanted to show them he could beat Harry.

It seems like everything Harry has done has been through raw determination. Even many of his Quidditch successes. As I've said before, I want to see a magically powerful Harry, but so far that just isn't what the series is about.



Peregrine - Dec 9, 2003 9:50 am (#147 of 2971)

Harry reminds me of a friend of mine whose IQ well above average and who is easily the smartest person I know. Classes shouldn’t be any kind of a challenge to him, but it took him 7 years to go through what should have been 4 years of college. And it’s not because he couldn’t do the work, it’s because he didn’t really care—he didn’t feel like writing papers or going to class so he didn’t.

This is like Harry in that Harry can do the work; he just has a million other things on his mind and isn’t worried about whether or not he can turn a rabbit into a pair of slippers. When he has to learn a spell (Accio for instance) he learns it in a day and does it better than other students (I’m assuming since Flitwick was so impressed after the 2nd tournament). He has the power but he doesn’t apply himself.

Actually, not many of his classes require power do they? History of Magic doesn’t, Divination doesn’t, Care of Magical Creatures doesn’t, Potions doesn’t and Defense against the Dark Art doesn’t depending on the teacher (and Harry did quite well with Lupin and Moody/Crouch). So that leaves Transfiguration and Charms. We can see he does well in Charms when he tries and Transfiguration…well, he hasn’t needed to transfigure anything yet has he?

I know I’m regurgitating a lot of what others have said. I guess my point is, count me in with the folks who say he’s very powerful.



Mrs. Black - Dec 9, 2003 2:54 pm (#148 of 2971)

I think what SJRand was saying about Harry's determination goes well with what I said earlier. When Harry decides to tap into his power the results are very impressive, he just doesn't chose to do it all the time. When push comes to shove he's very impressive, but it takes to much focus to do it all the time. It's important to the series that Harry not have this incredible power pervading everything he does, it has to be something that in there when he needs to tap into it.



SJ Rand - Dec 10, 2003 10:11 am (#149 of 2971)

A stray line to toss into the fray (GoF American chapter 5 page 63): Flying came more naturally to Harry than anything else in the magical world.

We know he's an exceptional flyer, but what does that say about everything else?



Mrs. Black - Dec 10, 2003 4:08 pm (#150 of 2971)

One thing to keep in mind there is that its very early in Harry's life in the Wizarding World. He hasn't learned how to control his power, or probably even to call it up. Everything about the world is foreign to him, but he found one that that was intuitive. It's like he's living abroad, at first even the little things of day to day life take a huge effort.



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MTW - Dec 10, 2003 5:56 pm (#151 of 2971)

SJ

You have to consider the total amount of training he had to do learn how to fly:

1) Hold your hand over your broom and say up

2) Hooch showing him the proper grip on the broom. That was the last bit of training Harry ever had in how to fly. Every thing else he had to concentrate on putting the right ingredients, or proper incantations. Sometimes he even had problem just thinking about happy events or even mediate before going to bed. Harry has a focus problem. I sometimes think , if Neville had not broken is wrist, Harry wouldn't of found flying as enjoyable.



Devika - Dec 11, 2003 1:32 am (#152 of 2971)

I'm not sure if this whole debate about Harry being a powerful wizard is very relevant or not. The books are about him and I think that should be enough for us to think that he is an important person. In any case JKR has shown us more than once that what counts in the long run is not your strength or magical prowess but your strength of character, and Harry does seem to have that.



SJ Rand - Dec 11, 2003 8:50 am (#153 of 2971)

Mrs. Black and MTW: Points taken, but that's where that phrase "came more naturally" comes into play. He just grabbed the broom and flew it like a champion. For "the magical world" nothing else seems to come easily to him, which I expect would be different if he was supposed to be exceptionally powerful. Granted, that is reading a lot into one single line.

Devika Bahadur: >>The books are about him and I think that should be enough for us to think that he is an important person.

Yes. Nobody is arguing against that.

>In any case JKR has shown us more than once that what counts in the long run is not your strength or magical prowess but your strength of character, and Harry does seem to have that.

That's what I've been debating about. After the first few chapters of book one we've seen nothing to indicate that Harry has especially strong magical ability. He's just brave and determined. Later, even the things in those first few chapters which seemed to indicate that he was powerful (apperating to the school roof, making the snake's restraining glass vanish) were explained as being common to all wizard kids. Not those exact things, but things of that type in times of strong emotion.



Maollelujah - Dec 11, 2003 10:25 pm (#154 of 2971)

I think that Harry is a rather powerful wizard for his age. Remember in the DA he taught students older than him that couldn't do some of the things he could two years before. Not only does he have talent, but he has a knack of doing the right thing at the right time. I think the only thing holding him back is that he is a lazy git.



Devika - Dec 12, 2003 1:07 am (#155 of 2971)

I feel that there is another thing that has prevented Harry from manifesting too many extraorinary magical powers on purpose. He is someone who stood out in the WW right from the outset, and now he doesn't really want to do something that is exceptional to attract attention to himself.

But it is evident, that when the opportunity presents itself, Harry rises to the ocasion. When he needed to defend himself from the dementors, he got his latent strength and produced a patronus. When he felt the need to train his fellow students in the wake of Voldemort's return, he came across as a brilliant teacher.



fidelio - Dec 12, 2003 7:01 am (#156 of 2971)

Here's a piece from the Lexicon on the way magic seems to work in JKR's world:

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This suggests that magic requires intention, focus of power, and focus of mind in order to work, and that the clearer and stronger these three elements are, the greater the effect of the spell. This is in line with what Crouch JR/"Moody" says during the lesson on the unforgivable curses in GoF--the students in that class [4th year] couldn't concentrate enough to give him more than a headache. This reminds me a lot of the oriental martial arts, where strength alone isn't enough--concentration and focus are essential to the effect--the difference between breaking the board, and just knocking it off the supports.

The fact that Harry does quite well when he really buckles down and concentrates bears this out--he does the summoning spell [Accio] well in GoF when he really buckles down, he learns to produce the Patronus in PoA, and he wins the duel with Voldie in the graveyard. However, most of the time, he lacks this focus and concentration--which probably shouldn't amaze us in a boy his age, especially one surrounded by so many distractions, from the attractive ones of the Hogwarts menu and the sport of Quidditch, to the less appealing ones of Snape's temper, Umbridge, and the threat of Voldemort.

It seems to me that when Harry learns to focus and concentrate consistently, he'll be pretty powerful, but that without that, he'll just work in fits and starts--remember how often he messes up potions, when he wasn't paying close attention to what he was doing, or some of the problems he's had in Charms and Transfiguration. Also, this could be a part of Hermione's success--she is able to focus well, and concentrate her willpower on an end. Neville could have a similar problem--once he's given a motivation, in OotP, he starts doing well. This might also explain some of Snape's exasperation with both Harry and Neville--he can see they lack the needed focus, and is trying to prod them into developing it, although he's not the world's most effective drill sergeant.

So my angle on how powerful Harry is, or might be comes down to "Pretty powerful, if he learns to focus his will power and concentration on accomplishing his intent." Until then, he's going to be pretty sporadic in his results.



Susurro Notities - Dec 12, 2003 7:26 am (#157 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 12, 2003 7:27 am

I am unable to recall any incident where Harry really needed to perform and didn't - other than in class. I agree that Harry is typical for his age - great when his interest is engaged and lackluster in class work. He certainly is not the first teenager to choose fun over school work and to fail to recognize the connection between school work and future performance in real life. I think the events at the end of OoP will galvanize Harry to become more diligent and focused in his studies. McGonagall's declaration to help Harry become an Auror will also push Harry to be more studious as I doubt she will put up with his dillydallying



SJ Rand - Dec 12, 2003 10:25 am (#158 of 2971)

>I am unable to recall any incident where Harry really needed to perform and didn't

From the perspective of magic ability alone, I remember many.

In reverse order:

7: Not published yet, but look for the blood Voldemort took from Harry for the rebirth spell in book 4 to be the deciding factor.

5: The DEs have beaten Harry and company. It's over. He's about to get hit with a spell, then the Order appears and saves him. He later chases down a fleeing Bellatrix, gets off one spell that had little effect on her (for noble reasons of course) then the fight was over. Again. From the way it was written, it was clear that Bellatrix was on the verge of besting him, only holding back from fear of breaking the Prophecy. When Voldemort appeared, Harry was standing with his wand down. Voldemort casts the AK curse at Harry, end of this series time to start that new novel now, but Dumbledore appears and saves him. Voldemort possesses Harry, but Harry just wants to die now, from grief etc, and Voldemort can't deal with those emotions so he catches a cab and goes home.

4: He resists the Imperious. His willpower was never in question. He then survives Voldemort due to brother wands not wanting to fight each other. When they lock, he wins that arm wrestle contest with the just re-born Voldemort (again, Harry's willpower was never in question), then gets saved by the shadow people creating a diversion for him to escape. Oh, he also didn't get killed earlier because an overconfident Voldemort told his DEs that he was going to take care of Harry, which he then tries to do in an astounding duel. Astounding because Voldemort never struck me as being a John Sullivan Marquis of Queensberry rules type of fighter.

3: Black disarms Harry and Hermione in the shrieking shack. Ron was already hurt and on the floor. If Sirius really was the bad guy, then buh bye Harry. Later, when the dementors attack, he can't produce his much lauded Patronus. He's saved by persons unknown at that moment, someone who can produce a Patronus. He then has to travel back through time, and now he can produce a Patronus because he's figured out that he's the one that did produce the Patronus before in a time paradox sequence that still has me slightly dizzy.

2: Harry drops his wand, Riddle takes it. Fawkes appears out of nowhere, dropping the sorting hat with a crackerjack prize on the inside. Riddle says "I'll have one basilisk to go, please, hold the pickle". Fawkes takes out the serpent's eyes, and Harry finishes it off in a sword fight. Fawkes cries and heals the deadly poison inside Harry from getting bitten during the fight. Harry beats Riddle by stabbing the diary with a serpent tooth which had luckily broken out of the serpent's mouth. Gotta be more careful with those old teeth.

1: Quirrell has Harry trussed up like a thanksgiving turkey. Quirrell removes the ropes so Harry can get the stone for him. Quirrell then can't touch Harry because of Lily's charm, and for some odd reason doesn't remember to use magic. Harry loses anyway and is on his way to death before Dumbledore steps in and saves him.

Those are only the highlights from the dramatic end of book scenes.

Converse:

Harry uses Accio in his fourth year. Wasn't that a second year spell?

Harry produces a Patronus in his third year, a NEWT level spell. He learned it because he didn't want the dementors to stop him from playing Quidditch, and up to the fifth book was still on and off with it. It worked everytime he tried it, except for all the times when it didn't work. As might be expected from someone doing something well over their heads talent wise.



Peregrine - Dec 12, 2003 10:29 am (#159 of 2971)

Accio was a spell they were trying to learn (and Harry was really bad at it) right before the first task. So that one was a properly-aged spell.



Susurro Notities - Dec 12, 2003 3:30 pm (#160 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 12, 2003 3:44 pm

SJ, thanks for your post - you have noted some failures I agree with but I differ with your assessment of some of others:

7. Although the blood will probably play a role we don't know what that role will be so to say that this is a failure on Harry's part is premature.

4. This is decidedly not a failure on Harry's part. Although Voldemort was weak Harry had just finished a mentally and physically exhausting task and seen a comrade die. Harry is merely a 4th year Hogwarts student without the knowledge or experience that Voldemort has. Despite Harry's decided disadvantage he wins the "duel". The use of the shadow people is merely reaping the reward of his power.

2. Harry did not have reason to mistrust Tom prior to Tom's revealing his real identity thus he didn't pick up his wand promptly and Tom got it. I also wonder if just anyone could have picked up that tooth and destroyed the diary. Maybe it was Harry's power that was the operational force not the tooth.

I agree that Harry has failed in some tasks yet we should not discount how well he does even when he fails. Considering his relative lack of exposure to the WW, age, knowledge, experience,along with the level of exhaustion, and the emotional upheaval inherent in the dramatic scenes you have noted he generally performs very well.

I also question the idea that for Harry to be viewed as powerful he must not have any assistance from anyone or thing. At the graveyard he was outnumbered 20+ to one. In the MoM Harry and Company are one to one with wizards that have significantly more experience and knowledge. The DEs at the MoM were not tired from a long flight nor were they surprised as were the DA members. I would bet that every DE there had fought in other battles whereas this was new for the DAs. At the end of CoS Harry is significantly disadvantaged by the loss of his wand. Lost only because he wasn't privy to the same knowledge his adversary had. (that Tom was Voldemort) Finally in SS Harry was an eleven year old boy with all of one year of magic training. I don't think it is indicative of a lack of power that Harry would need assistance when he is significantly disadvantaged. After all even Voldemort makes use of Wormtail and DEs and Sirius didn't go to the MoM by himself he went with a crew.
In the end SE you are correct Harry has failed yet I have yet to see any instance where Harry does not appear to be brave, talented, and powerful.
You did have me laughing SE! I loved the image of Voldemort in a cab!

Peregrine, I believe your example would fall into the category of class work which I had excepted in my previous post. When Harry becomes motivated to learn Accio he does so.



Weeny Owl - Dec 12, 2003 3:40 pm (#161 of 2971)

Susurro:

I really like your viewpoint on all of Harry's trials and tribulations.

I think he has more power than he realizes, but being a pre-teen/teenager, he is interested in the wonders of a new world, a new game, new friends, new pets, and he probably doesn't see anything being that different from his regular school except for what he's learning.

He also has the added disadvantages of his celebrity status, his living conditions with the Dursleys, and his scar hurting. Add to that the dreams, Cedric's death, and what happened in OotP, and I still feel he's much better adjusted than he should be.

If he concentrates and applies himself, I think his power will finally get the exercise it needs.



Susurro Notities - Dec 12, 2003 11:34 pm (#162 of 2971)

Sorry Peregrine,
I misread the posts by you and SE. I see now what you were saying in post #159. I promise to read more carefully in the future.



SJ Rand - Dec 13, 2003 9:36 am (#163 of 2971)

Susurro,

Remember that I'm only writing from a perspective of magical ability or raw magic power.

I don't think Harry "failed" to live up to what he is in this series: brave, dedicated, willing to put his life on the line to do what he thinks is right. I just think that these qualities are what the books are about, not exceptional magic power.

Where he "fails" is in the area of having any extraordinary magic power, as any reader of other fantasy books about powerful magic users could tell you. Even in Feist's The Riftwar Saga, which also featured a young magician who had trouble calling upon his magic, but had at least some spontaneous bursts of raw power when his back was against the wall. Eventually he learned, and became the best of the best.

Rowling hasn't shown this type of progression with Harry. There really haven't been any events foreshadowing great magical power. In fact, its been the exact opposite. When it seems like he does have great power, that apparent power is explained away as having come from someone else. Lily's charm, Voldemort accidentally passing along the parcelmouth ability. When he needs to find a well of raw power to save him, someone or something else pops into the story to save him instead.

I need to repeat that line so it doesn't get lost among all these words:

When he needs to find a well of raw power to save him, someone or something else pops into the story to save him instead.

How much more obvious can Rowling be about this? Harry doesn't reach into himself, find his power, and create a brilliant burst of light to cover his escape. The shadow people cover it. Harry doesn't find raw power to drive Voldemort out of his body. Harry wants to die due to grief and loss, and that's what gets Voldemort to run away.

At around the same age, James, Lupin, Sirius, and even Pettigrew were Animages. Fred and George were already viciously masterful with spells and potions to make their pranks. Hermione has been casting spells Harry doesn't even seem to know of since the first book.

Harry is not being shown as a powerful wizard. He is being shown as someone who will do what he has to do in order to win He's the president who can order a nuclear attack, not the nuclear bomb, not even the one who can build the nuclear bomb.

While he's had little foreshadowing of great magic power, there has been a lot of foreshadowing for him being the catalyst and leader. Even Dumbledore, who seems to be the puppet master, turns out to be the puppet following Harry's lead. If Dumbledore thinks he's leading Harry he'd best guess again. Harry has led Dumbledore at least as many times.



Denise P. - Dec 13, 2003 9:53 am (#164 of 2971)

When it seems like he does have great power, that apparent power is explained away as having come from someone else. Lily's charm, Voldemort accidentally passing along the parcelmouth ability.

Just a small point, we don't KNOW that Voldemort accidently passed along that talent. It could be that Harry already possessed it. Dumbledore was speculating when he said: "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar.

One of the rules when reading JKR is Never take a character's word for it So while it does seem likely that Dumbledore is correct, it is not a fact as far as we know.



Matt Allair - Dec 13, 2003 7:43 pm (#165 of 2971)

Point taken Denise P, We then have to go back and consider that Harry might have some Slytherin blood in his family tree. If Harry's Parseltongue abilities were not transferred to him by Voldemort, then how else would he have such an ability? As Sirius's family tree illustrates, we can't say for certain, at least definitively, that the Potters don't have any connection to Salazar Slytherin.

As much as it will make people cringe to think that way.



I Am Used Vlad - Dec 13, 2003 7:51 pm (#166 of 2971)

Even if Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue is innate, SJ Rand's point is still valid. First, Harry has never used the ability to save himself. He's only used it to free the snake at the zoo and protect Justin. Also, just because he has a "rare gift," as Ron calls it, doesn't mean that he has extraordinary power to do magic.

I'll use Tonks as an example. She is a Metamorphmagus, which is rare and an ability that one must be born with. But that doesn't mean that she is an exceptionally powerful witch. She certainly doesn't fare well at the battle at the end of OotP, where Dumbledore, who as far as we know is neither a Metamorphmagus nor a Parselmouth, easily defeats the DE's and saves Harry from Voldemort.



Devika - Dec 14, 2003 2:12 am (#167 of 2971)

After reading the last few posts, I get the feeling that the whole crux of having Harry as the main protagonist is to show what happens when an ordinary boy becomes a part of extraordinary circumstances. I know it is somewhat cliched, but come to think of it, except for the fact that he survived LV's attack, he is quite an ordinary and average boy. And it is this extraordinary situation that he finds himself enveloped in that brings out his own talent. Okay... Quidditch may be an exception, but even a normal boy can be quite good at a sport - that doesn't mean he was born special. The deeper message I guess is that we all have great hidden potential in us and we only need to find it. I know I am getting somewhat philosophical, but these are just a few of my musings...



freshwater - Dec 14, 2003 7:33 am (#168 of 2971)

I'm with you, Devika: I think that some of JKR's main points in this entire series are that 1) magic may be fun and useful but it will not solve your most important problems; 2) special abilities may seem desirable, but it is the potential greatness within each of us--for compassion, loyalty, courage, determination, etc.--that is what will see us through the challenges in our lives; 3) these latent attributes don't develop well when we are happy and comfortable, but rathter when we are faced with peer pressure, uncertainty, danger and misunderstanding; and of course, 4) it's not what you are born with or what you acquire, but the choices you make that will determine who you are and how your life unfolds.

I can understand that fans of magical/fantasy fiction may have been looking for increasing magical powers to develop in Harry, but I don't think that will prove to be important in this series.



Madame Librarian - Dec 14, 2003 8:26 am (#169 of 2971)

freshwater, give yourself 25 points! You summation of major themes was excellent, so clearly stated.

Ciao. Barb



SJ Rand - Dec 14, 2003 8:27 am (#170 of 2971)

Devika Bahadur: >>I get the feeling that the whole crux of having Harry as the main protagonist is to show what happens when an ordinary boy becomes a part of extraordinary circumstances. {omitted} The deeper message I guess is that we all have great hidden potential in us and we only need to find it. I know I am getting somewhat philosophical, but these are just a few of my musings...

Yes, I think that's exactly right. And you're not being overly philosophical, you pinpointed the type of message that can be expected in a series written with children in mind.

freshwater: >>I can understand that fans of magical/fantasy fiction may have been looking for increasing magical powers to develop in Harry, but I don't think that will prove to be important in this series.

I had to overcome this prejudice myself, being a fantasy fan. When I came to this forum I was among those who were still waiting for Harry to become the greatest wizard of all, but as I read the posts here and then began re-reading the series I realized that wasn't the point at all.



Susurro Notities - Dec 14, 2003 8:30 pm (#171 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 14, 2003 8:31 pm

I believe I understand what you are saying about raw power Rand. I agree that is not what HP is about. I think Harry may very well have "extraordinary magic power" but I agree that it is not of the ""...spontaneous bursts of raw power." type. (quotations from SJ Rand post #163) Harry has shown plenty of talent and some power but I believe he needs to develop emotionally, become more studious, get over his teenage anger and hormones, and become serious about the task that Dumbledore set before him when he revealed the contents of the prophecy. Only then will we know how powerful Harry is and whether he will make good or poor choices.
I don't know that I would be as interested in the Harry Potter series if it was about raw power. freshwater's excellent eloquent post outlined the aspects of this series that make it interesting for me.



SJ Rand - Dec 15, 2003 8:42 am (#172 of 2971)

Susurro: >>Harry has shown plenty of talent and some power but I believe he needs to develop emotionally, become more studious, get over his teenage anger and hormones, and become serious about the task that Dumbledore set before him when he revealed the contents of the prophecy. Only then will we know how powerful Harry is

I'd guess he'll end up being somewhat above average. Part of the concept of "built in" (or natural) power is that training is optional. Training will refine the magic ability, but the magic is there to use even without it. I think we see some of this in Fred and George. They don't seem to study, but their tricks are still masterful.

>I don't know that I would be as interested in the Harry Potter series if it was about raw power.

It does get dull, and writers end up not knowing what to do with them. Since I mentioned the Feist character before, what ended up happening to him was that he eventually had to vanish. He was too powerful. He could have solved every problem, that Feist wanted to use to drive his stories, with the wave of a hand, so he had to disappear for the sake of the story.

Dumbledore is sort of like this, which is probably why he keeps getting buried in the HP series. We know he's there in his office, but we don't see him. Or he gets fired and has to leave the school. That would be hard to do with the title character.



Sharker11 - Dec 15, 2003 3:01 pm (#173 of 2971)

I have one question about Cedric, how did the ministry write off his death as an accident, and not blame Harry? It seemed to me at the end of GoF that he was going to face murder charges, how did no one, but his follow classmates accuse him? I'm assuming they can easily tell he was killed by AK. Sharker



Sly Girl - Dec 15, 2003 6:25 pm (#174 of 2971)

They probably assumed Harry wasn't strong enough to do an AK, just being a teenager and all. Plus, I'm sure Dumbledore still had a grip on things at that time and Fudge probably wanted to just cover everything up.



eggplant - Dec 15, 2003 10:52 pm (#175 of 2971)

It mystifies me when people say Harry has not shown extraordinary magical ability, and apparently Hermione was impressed too. She said only “Very very advanced magic” could overcome a hundred dementors as Harry did. And according to her Victor Krum, a powerful wizard himself, said this 'He said Harry knew how to do stuff even he didn't, and he was in the final year at Durmstrang.' Then she added “there's no point pretending that you're not good at Defence Against the Dark Arts, because you are. You were the only person last year who could throw off the Imperius Curse completely, you can produce a Patronus, you can do all sorts of stuff that full-grown wizards can't”. Remember Crouch junior, a pretty formidable wizard was imprisoned by the Imperius Curse for over a decade but Harry overcame it in just a few minutes. And for the life of me I don’t see how you can ignore that scene at the end of Goblet Of Fire where he beats Voldemort at magical arm wrestling.

Eggplant



Joost! - Dec 15, 2003 11:55 pm (#176 of 2971)

I agree with you, Eggplant, that overcoming a hundred Dementors (in PoA) and a Dark Lord in one-on-one combat (in GoF) are examples of above average magical power (this could be an understatement, but we really don't know what an average wizard can do). I don't know however if only wizards with a lot of "raw power" can overcome the Imperius Curse. Who is to say that muggles can't do it? Also, in PoA we are to believe that the ability to produce a Patronus is only for powerful wizards, but in OoP almost everyone in Dumbledore's Army is able to do it.

I agree that someone with a lot of knowledge could overcome a wizard with more raw power. But that's not really the issue here.

SJ Rand: "It does get dull, and writers end up not knowing what to do with them. Since I mentioned the Feist character before, what ended up happening to him was that he eventually had to vanish. He was too powerful. He could have solved every problem, that Feist wanted to use to drive his stories, with the wave of a hand, so he had to disappear for the sake of the story.

Dumbledore is sort of like this, which is probably why he keeps getting buried in the HP series. We know he's there in his office, but we don't see him. Or he gets fired and has to leave the school. That would be hard to do with the title character."

That's very interesting, I never thought about it that way...



Joanna S Lupin - Dec 16, 2003 7:18 am (#177 of 2971)

Joost about your statement on DA members producing Patronus Charms -

Remember that they didn't try it on neither a Dementor nor a Boggard as Harry did - it's not a problem to say the incantation but to be able to concentrate on your happy memory when you are affected by Dementors.



eggplant - Dec 16, 2003 8:13 am (#178 of 2971)

It is one thing to produce a Patronus in a calm classroom, it is quite another to produce one powerful enough to repel a hundred dementors especially when they’re trying to suck your soul out of your mouth; besides Harry the only one we’ve seen able to do that is Dumbledore and I don’t know if he could have when he was only 13.

Eggplant



SJ Rand - Dec 16, 2003 10:05 am (#179 of 2971)

Joost!: >>I don't know however if only wizards with a lot of "raw power" can overcome the Imperius Curse. Who is to say that muggles can't do it?

You're right. I was just reading the part when Crouch/Moody teaches it, and he says nothing about magic. What he tells them is: "The Imperious curse can be fought, and I'll be teaching you how, but it takes real strength of character and not everyone's got it." (the italics are mine). We already knew Harry has real strength of character.

eggplant: >>It is one thing to produce a Patronus in a calm classroom, it is quite another to produce one powerful enough to repel a hundred dementors especially when they're trying to suck your soul out of your mouth;

Absolutely true and, as you'll recall, when Harry was in those circumstances he was not able to produce a Patronus.

He did it later, after having traveled back in time from three hours into the future, from the safety of bushes and at a distance from the action and, he explains, he's able to do it then because he knew that he had done it from the bushes before, within the bizarre confines of a time loop where he first thinks that he's his father, and later realizes that he was himself.

Dizzy yet?

Anyway, he wasn't under pressure when he cast the charm in PoA. He was safe and filled with confidence owing to having "already done it" in that time paradox Rowling introduced.

Just before fifth year, still a couple of years before NEWT levels, he was able to produce one under pressure in the beginning of OotP, after four or five failed attempts (I think). As I said before, exactly what you'd expect from someone doing something they'd been taught, but which was still above their level of ability.

Oh, one other thing: Even in Rowling's wizard world, raw magic manifests itself under extreme pressure. Remember the "test" for a kid being a wizard in the first place? Spontaneously casting a spell when emotional, even if they don't know they're wizards?



Maollelujah - Dec 21, 2003 7:09 pm (#180 of 2971)

but in OoP almost everyone in Dumbledore's Army is able to do it.

I only remember it mentioning that two, besides Harry could, Hermy and Cho.



Detail Seeker - Dec 22, 2003 3:09 pm (#181 of 2971)

Just to open another theatre on this thread On the "Doris Crockford" thread, I just stumbled over the remark, that Harry was the only wizard in the Little Whinging area. There is possibly a small flaw in the story. In PS, we heard of Daedalus Diggle greeting Harry when shopping with Petunia. Did he follow Hyrry on purpose or did he just happen to se him ?

If the latter, the place where Petunia went shopping must have been the place, where Diggle went, too - so he cannot live that far away. Either he has moved in the mean time or there is another wizard in the Little Whinging surrounding.



Peregrine - Dec 23, 2003 12:07 pm (#182 of 2971)

Or he was keeping an eye on Harry.



Maollelujah - Dec 23, 2003 3:15 pm (#183 of 2971)

I thought Diggle was from Kent. I bet he just happened to be in the neighborhood, and accidentally bumped into 'the boy like no other.'



Hem Hem - Dec 23, 2003 7:43 pm (#184 of 2971)

When you have access to wizarding means of transportation, showing up in the other end of the country isn't nearly as difficult or unlikely as it is in our lives.



Devika - Dec 24, 2003 9:34 am (#185 of 2971)

I agree Hem Hem... Dedalus Diggle it seems had turned up just to have a look at Harry. It must not have been too difficult.



eggplant - Dec 24, 2003 11:20 pm (#186 of 2971)

Somebody said something about Crouch/Moody teaching how to overcome the Imperious curse, well, Crouch never did anything of the sort, he couldn’t have because you cant teach what you don’t know. Crouch battled the Imperious curse for over a decade and even then he was only partially successful; Harry on his first day could overcome it completely in just a few minutes. Crouch wasn’t teaching Harry, he was testing him to obtain intelligence his master could use.

Eggplant



SJ Rand - Dec 25, 2003 9:37 am (#187 of 2971)

Teaching or testing, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) found someone who was able to partly resist it and hit him with it several times until he was able to fully resist it due to his "strength of character". That's no different at all from how Snape tried to teach Occlumency, which he is an expert on.



Emily - Dec 25, 2003 4:57 pm (#188 of 2971)

At least Snape explained how to do Occlumensy., even if he didn't give any helping hints. Crouch (as Moody) just threw it at the kids. Harry was the only one to throw it off.

What I want to know is how long the DA had been working on the Patronuses. Harry could not produce a corporeal one until the Quidditch match where Malfoy pretended to be a dementor. At least we know he didn't before then, and towards the end of the book, Dumbledore tells Harry that he remembered the form Harry's Patronus had taken at he match, or something like that. Which means that it did have a definite shape, and presumably the same stag that we see later. So, my point is, all Harry got the first time he did it (without the boggart dementor) was a 'silvery whoosh'. Could it be argued that Hermione and whoever else did it were more powerful than Harry?

Points against: 1. That was Harry's very first attempt, and after that he was always up against a boggart.

2.They are starting older, and he can produce a Patronus against at least 2 dementors at the age they are starting with.

3. They were in a brightly lit, dementor-free classroom, Harry was up against a boggart.

4.It's possible that that lesson was not the first that they practiced Patronuses.

Basically, I don't know what I'm saying, I came up with something and then shot it down myself. If any body has any ideas about this, please post.



Joost! - Dec 26, 2003 3:22 pm (#189 of 2971)

Maraunder5: Could it be argued that Hermione and whoever else did it [produce a Patronus] were more powerful than Harry?

It could be argued, of course, but I don't think the ability to perform a spell is a sign of power. It's just a sign that someone is indeed a wizard or witch. I believe the power of a wizards shows itself in the power of the spells he performs. Harry seems to be powerful not because he can summon a Patronus but because he can summon a Patronus that can repel a hundred Dementors. He's not powerful because he knows how to do an Accio spell but because he can accio his broom from miles away.

I think that a good test of power would be two wizards (or witches) on opposite sides of the Quidditch pitch, both trying to Accio a Quaffle. The one who gets it to his side would be the most powerful. This is of course highly hypothetical, but I think it would be nice if JKR introduced something like that between Harry and some average student at Hogwarts (like Dean or Simon or Pansy or Lavender...). Although I also think that that was indeed the purpose of the duel between Harry and You-Know-Who in GoF, to show Harry is more powerful (if he manages to concentrate) than the Dark Lord himself.



A-is-for-Amy - Dec 26, 2003 8:24 pm (#190 of 2971)

Just a little fact I picked up today while looking up the meanings of flowers. It struck me because Harry's wand is made of Holly, isn't it?

Holly stands for Defense, Domestic Happiness, Foresight



Sly Girl - Dec 26, 2003 10:10 pm (#191 of 2971)

Holly also means 'holy' in the Celtic/Pagan world, at any rate, and can stand for consecration, beauty and physical revenge.

Of course, conversely, Voldemort's wand is YEW wood, which stands for death and has a long history of being used in death rituals and being grown in and around cemetaries.



Mad Goose - Dec 28, 2003 5:23 pm (#192 of 2971)

joost, you said what i was thinking. I only just finished GoF (second read) and thought that the dark lord was either still weak or awfully lowsy at wizarding. Or just underestimating Harry and sporting around some too.



popkin - Dec 29, 2003 6:03 pm (#193 of 2971)

Hermione and Cho may owe their success at producing a patroness to Harry's superior teaching ability. Another teacher may not have been able to get such good results from the same students.



Lady Nagini - Dec 31, 2003 1:00 pm (#194 of 2971)

Right, but Harry had a superb teacher in Lupin. Are you saying that Cho, Hermione, and whoever else produced Patroni would have done so with Lupin, too?

Then again, they may not have been able to do so under pressure, so I'm not sure what my point is anymore. Sigh. I just talked myself through a circle.



eggplant - Jan 1, 2004 11:57 pm (#195 of 2971)

Could it be argued that Hermione and whoever else did it [produce a Patronus] were more powerful than Harry? No I don’t believe you can argue that. In the first place they were 2 years older than when Harry first did it, in the second place it is one thing to produce a Patronus in a classroom, it is a very different thing to do it when a Dementor is about to such your soul out of your mouth. Most important of all, Harry didn’t just produce a corporeal Patronus, he made one powerful enough to repel a hundred Dementors, an act which left even Hermione in awe “that’s very very advanced magic”. The only other wizard we’ve seen able to do something like that is Dumbledore.

Eggplant



Lady Nagini - Jan 2, 2004 1:06 pm (#196 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jan 2, 2004 1:06 pm

We haven't really seen anyone else try to produce Patroni under pressure at all (besides Mrs. Weasley, and that was different), so we don't really know how difficult it is.

And I think someone brought up the point that in PoA Harry already knew for a fact that he could do it, since he'd done it before. He wasn't tecnically under pressure.



SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 2:31 pm (#197 of 2971)

I did, but that was PoA. Harry did produce one under pressure in OotP, on the third try. Everyone in OotP does think it's very impressive but I don't think that one spell indicates a massive amount of raw talent, although when the last two books come out I do hope I'm wrong.



Joanna S Lupin - Jan 2, 2004 2:47 pm (#198 of 2971)

Lady Nagini may I ask you when did Mrs Weasley produce a Patronus? Didn't you mistake it with Boggart-repeling spell 'Riddiculus'?



Lady Nagini - Jan 3, 2004 1:42 pm (#199 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jan 3, 2004 1:42 pm

I might have, whoops.

My point still holds, though.



popkin - Jan 3, 2004 3:30 pm (#200 of 2971)

Harry has a lot of raw talent:
# Something about Harry (at age 1 1/2) did defeat LV the first time around. We just don't know what it was yet.
# Parseltongue displayed for the first time before Hogwarts.
# At 11 yrs. can fly expertly without instruction.
# At 13 yrs. can produce a corporeal patronus under pressure. (The bogart provided pressure, and he did find strength to fend off 100 dementors from the sure knowledge that he had already done it.)
# He threw off the imperious curse both in a classroom situation, AND when it was cast by LV himself in the graveyard in GOF.

I don't think JKR has led us to question whether Harry is a powerful wizard. She has presented him as one. However, Harry has failed, so far, to develop his talent.

Harry reminds me of so many young (and older) people who have tremendous innate abilities (ie. music), but no one notices, because they don't exercise their talents (ie. devote a set time to daily practice). Fortunately, it's not too late for Harry to get serious about developing his natural magical ability.

Before the end of Book 7, I am expecting Harry to make peace with himself and his circumstances, and to blossom into a man much like Dumbledore.



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A-is-for-Amy - Jan 3, 2004 5:55 pm (#201 of 2971)

I agree that Harry is a very talented wizard (the sorting hat told us so!) I think that he tends to work best under pressure (the summoning charm for the first task in GOF). Now that he had seen what can happen when he doesn't apply himself - the death of his Godfather - he would be smart to start taking his studies seriously.



Fawkes8U - Jan 3, 2004 6:16 pm (#202 of 2971)

I agree that Harry works best under pressure. He's got a talent for quick thinking and reacting. He's also under pressure when he shouldn't be, ie: at school. He has to deal with Draco and cronies in class, Professor Trelawney predicting his death about every class, , Professor Snape well.... being less than encouraging in class, and so far every year he's been at Hogwarts, he's had to deal with the most evil wizard ever. When does Harry get a break? Quiddich and his friendships are it. There was Sirius, but that was also terrible pressure on him to keep Sirius from being caught. Now that Sirius is gone, he's got to deal with guilt also. I see that the external pressures on him keep him so preoccupied that he can't concentrate on any of the things that would make him a more "informed" wizard. Hopefully, he'll be able to focus some of his frustration from OOP on honing his talent and skill. I think that after the revelation from Dumbledore about the prophecy, Harry knows now what not having all of the facts mean.



Lady Nagini - Jan 3, 2004 6:55 pm (#203 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jan 3, 2004 6:56 pm

Yeah, I was reading OotP for the umpteenth time last night, and I noticed that while Harry (and Ron & Hermione) did spend a lot of time on homework, he was rarely productive in actually learning anything. I know that he hasn't ever been exactly the model student, but this year he was more distracted by external events than ever before.

Yes, he will feel terribly guilty about Sirius' death, and I do hope that will push him into working harder. However, I have serious doubts that he will have the chance to work at becoming a better wizard. He has a tendency to mope and internalize everything, rather than to see what's in front of him (he didn't remember that Ginny was possessed by Voldemort), and he's going to be increasingly distracted in next two books.

I really hope that he will develop his talents farther, but I don't know whether he will have either the time or the inclination.



popkin - Jan 4, 2004 8:24 pm (#204 of 2971)

You're right. Harry has several things he has to overcome before he will be inspired to hone his talents. One of his greatest obstacles next year will be the deepseated anger he is now feeling toward Snape, holding him responsible for Sirius' death. Harry will probably pass his potions OWL, and will be required to work with Snape again. Until he can let go of his anger, Harry will have more difficulties in potions than ever before.



Flame Alligator - Jan 14, 2004 6:41 am (#205 of 2971)

Finally, after several hours, I have read through this thread. I will try not to rehash. I may have a little brain fog from contemplating all the views. Did anyone mention Harry becoming an Auror? This is the profession he has expressed interest. I can not see young adult Harry becoming a DADA professor. Maybe after he is retired as an Auror. Plus, I'm hoping we will get more books about Harry after he graduates from Hogwarts. It seems to be that experience is preparing Harry to be an Auror regardless of what happens with Voldemort. There is always a bad wizard that needs to be brought to justice. Harry seems to thrive on action and adventure even when he is quivering in his boots. This is evident in GoF. Harry is heroic by nature. Not to say professors can't be heroes. I just think Harry would be more fulfilled as an Auror.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 14, 2004 7:10 am (#206 of 2971)

There has been som discussion, but a lot of others seem to think that after the final confrontation with LV, Harry will have had enough of the Dark Arts to last him a lifetime (if he lives). I'm not so sure I believe that, but you never know. His becoming a pro quidditch player doesn't seem entirely out of the question if he doesn't want to deal with dark wizards after all is said and done.

JKR has said that she isn't currently planning any Harry books after the seventh, and that the final book would wrap everything up and answer all the unanswered questions. Can she really do that?



FCBarca - Jan 14, 2004 7:40 am (#207 of 2971)

One of the things about Harry I find strange is that he said that becoming an Auror was the only career he has considered. But one of the things he likes best is Quidditch, so why has he not considered becoming a professional Quidditch player?



fidelio - Jan 14, 2004 7:47 am (#208 of 2971)

Maybe it hasn't dawned on him this is an option, which is odd, since Oliver Wood has been chosen as a trainee by a pro team. Maybe because Harry didn't grow up with Quidditch from childhood and isn't able to follow the pro teams very closely when he's not at Hogwarts, this hasn't really sunk in to his awareness. Besides, I doubt that the Ministry of Magic [aka Dolores Umbridge] would allow open recruiting on campus for such an "impractical" career choice! [This is, in fact, a touchy sort of subject right now in the US, as pro basketball teams are recruiting young men straight out of high school, with, frequently, bad results for those recruited--they're pushed into a very complicated world when they often don't have the knowledge or background to cope with the pressures and temptations they face.]However, I agree with you that it seems like a "natural" choice for Harry.



Peregrine - Jan 14, 2004 8:03 am (#209 of 2971)

Maybe if Krum comes back into the picture he’ll be able to fill Harry in on the pro-Quidditch lifestyle and make him realize there are other options out there.



S.E. Jones - Jan 14, 2004 9:05 am (#210 of 2971)

I don't think JKR will go down the pro-Quidditch player road with Harry. I keep thinking of what Bagman said in GoF, "And Rookwood kept talking about getting me a job in the Ministry later on... once my Quidditch days are over, you know... I mean, I can't keep getting hit by Bludgers for the rest of my life, can I?". Admittedly, Bagman was a beater and not a seeker, but the bludgers are present no matter the position, and players take quite a few beatings anyway. It doesn't seem like a career you can, er, grow old with. And, thinking of what kept happening to Ireland's seeker during the Quidditch World Cup, Harry may be safer as an Auror.....

EDIT: Also, isn't it possible that Harry knows what kind of fame comes with being a pro-Quidditch player and he simply isn't looking for more? I mean, he saw the giggling girls that followed Krum around and the people wanting his autograph, etc. I don't think Harry would want to seek out more renown if he can avoid it.



popkin - Jan 14, 2004 9:23 am (#211 of 2971)

S.E., that's a good point. The fame would be a definite drawback to being a pro-quiditch player. A more secluded lifestyle would suit Harry better.



Mrs. Sirius - Jan 14, 2004 10:35 pm (#212 of 2971)

IF Harry survives, I always imagine that he will choose a very quite, low key life. Just he (and Ginny?) pottering about Godrics Hollow, gardening trying out new spells, reading...



Devika - Jan 15, 2004 2:35 am (#213 of 2971)

Harry? reading? I'm not so sure! It's more the kind of thing Hermione will do after retirement! But that apart, I don't think Harry will end up as a pro Quidditch player. I honestly do imagine him as an auror. He is someoe who feels very strongly against the Dark side and it is that passionate side to him which will be an asset. Somehow I have always got the impression that an auror's job is very difficult to get, coveted, and highly respected. That'll be something that is perfect for Harry. Of course that will mean that he has to do really well in studies, which I feel he has the potential for, just not the inclination or will. But then again, in his NEWT year - book 7- he will most likely be involved in the final face-off against Voldy, so he might not be able to study quite as well. But then again, maybe his defeat of the Dark Lord, might just get him honoroury 'aurorship' !!



Sly Girl - Jan 15, 2004 9:33 am (#214 of 2971)

My thoughts on what Harry will do afterwards (should he survive)... well, basically give the boy whatever he wants. He's done and suffered enough, me thinks. If he wants to move to the Alps and studying the mating habits of Mountain Trolls, peace be with him.

That said,I hope JKR gives him a nice ending. Just my two knuts.



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 15, 2004 10:22 am (#215 of 2971)

Ok.... Trelawney predicts that Harry will live to a "ripe old age, become the Minister of Magic, and have twelve children." Now, while she is sobbing hysterically and Harry presents this as a favor one of the teachers is giving him because he is standing up against Umbridge, the number twelve sent up a red flag when I was reading it the first time, and again as I'm reading it now. There have been discussions before as to the importance of the number twelve in the septology before (and thinking about that I'll search the threads again to see if I can find one pertaining to that).

Anyway, I can't get this prediction out of my mind, and nor do I think I should. The number twelve has proven to be important, at the very least a clue, and again I am realizing I need to do some more research. So I'll be back. Smile

EDIT: Sorry this is on the end of page 582 and the beginning of 583, Chapter 26, US Version



Czarina - Jan 15, 2004 2:18 pm (#216 of 2971)

Since Trelawney has made two correct predictions, anything she says should be noted carefully. Though she wasn't in a trance when she said that Harry would live to a ripe old age, etc., she might be partially right. (Most of her predictions, when taken in context or interpreted symbolically, could be proven true -- like most "fortunetellers".) This sounds like a clue that is easily passed over.

If/when Harry Potter defeats Lord Voldemort, he will be VERY famous. No matter what career he chooses, he will be well-knowned and harassed. In that sense, he wouldn't make a good Auror. He will probably choose a job at the Ministry, something that could eventually lead to him becoming the Minister for Magic later in life. If he could possibly become the Minister, then it stands to reason that he could also live a long life with twelve children.



Flame Alligator - Jan 16, 2004 3:48 am (#217 of 2971)

Devika, Finally, I get some support on Harry becoming an auror. I love your idea of an honorary aurorship. Excellent! Experience should count for something. Good grades are not the only indication of skills. In GoF, Harry is very interested in the "tools of the trade in Mad Eye Moody's office. Plus, Mad Eye tells Harry to use his strengths. The same would apply in the auror profession.

I just can't see Harry settling down into a domestic life as a young wizard. I think Harry is a natural born auror even if he isn't the best student. He will need Hermione's help to pass his NEWT's.

Czarina, Wasn't Mad Eye Moody famous or should I say infamous and still an effect auror. An auror is a hunter (track down bad wizards) not a spy.



Fawkes Forever - Jan 16, 2004 6:07 am (#218 of 2971)

I think Aurors are particuarly skilled at disguise... was that not the reason why Tonks was such a good Auror, even though she was clumsy!

Then we have the theories that Harry might also be a Metamorphagus, therefore disguise would be easy! I'm not arguing here whether is he or isn't, my point is that Aurors can disguise themselves by several methods ... polyjuice & the like. So being famous mightn't hinder Harrys progression to become an auror.

In saying that, the added pressures of the prophesy et al, are going to make it hard for Harry to buckle down in school to get top marks in his NEWTS! Or perhaps Hermione will help there.

The honourary auror idea is good, he might receive a scholarship to auror school post Voldy finale! That is if he's not sick of the dark arts by that stage, or is still with us



Czarina - Jan 16, 2004 6:38 am (#219 of 2971)

Wasn't Mad-Eye Moody famous BECAUSE he was an auror; that is, his auror exploits made him famous? Harry Potter is famous and would be so before ever becoming an auror.



mollis - Jan 16, 2004 8:00 am (#220 of 2971)

I absolutely think that Harry will become an auror. I think that his inner urge to protect the innocent and search out the evil guys will translate perfectly to a career as an auror. And I don't think that being an auror is neccessarily a high profile job. I agree with Czarina that MEM (Mad-Eye Moody) was recognized for his efforts to catch death eaters. MEM, or any auror, could be compared to a police detective who gains notoriety by catching a serial killer. I think that Harry could live in a modest home in the country with his wife (Ginny!) and 12 kids and work on a case-by-case basis even. The MOM could call him in for their tough cases. I am sure Harry has enough gold in that vault of his to not have to work really hard, if he didn't want to. That way he can avoid publicity and still save the WW from evil!

Just my opinion, of course.



Fawkes Forever - Jan 16, 2004 8:02 am (#221 of 2971)

Hee hee Mollis, I'm picturing some kind of detective show with Harry in it.... Harry Potter PI!



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 16, 2004 10:24 am (#222 of 2971)

I also think that Harry will become an Auror. I scoff at you who think that dear Harry could not pass his NEWTS! I mean, come on... Just like Dumbleydore said, he has encountered and overcome things that no grown wizard has encountered, let alone overcome. What are a few slightly exhausting wizarding exams after about four battles with Moldy Voldy in his various and asundry forms, and a few dementors to boot? Smile

No, I think that Harry will buckle down these last two years, or something of the sort, and get whatever NEWTS he needs to become an Auror. As we saw when he wanted to rescue Sirius and a few times before, he can be.... stubborn . Besides, I don't think that he did so bad on his OWLS that he couldn't get into any of the NEWT level classes he'd need to take to become an Auror. Well, maybe Potions.... But I guess we'll have to wait until Book 6, "Harry Potter and the Auror Training". Wink



Dan Wells - Jan 16, 2004 6:30 pm (#223 of 2971)

Harry's notoriety could help his work as an auror. After all, who in the wizarding world is going to want to have Auror Harry Potter after them after Harry's defeated Lord Voldemort! As soon as the word got out that Harry was on a case, the suspected bad guy would turn himself in.



Flame Alligator - Jan 17, 2004 4:34 am (#224 of 2971)

Yes, we are starting to get a consensus that Harry would make a formidable Auror. I can not even consider any other wizard profession for him. Of course, we don't know very much about the vast wizard professions that exist.

OOOOOH! HARRY POTTER PI! I love it Fawkes! Then, we would get a weekly Harry fix.



Sinister Kittens - Jan 17, 2004 3:34 pm (#225 of 2971)

To be honest - we haven't really seen the full scope of Wizarding job opportunities, mainly because Harry himself hasn't.

I would love him to be an auror as that is what he seems to want to be. But to be honest I see him ending up as more of a Dumbledore type character. IF he defeats Voldemort it will likely be the conclusion of a long personal struggle (which we have just seen the beginning of with the death of Sirius), I just cannot see a person suffering that sort of intense personal struggle whishing to continue his life in a similar vein?

Maybe, just, maybe... he will start to be a bit more reflective and decide on a career in which in can help without being so stressed, teaching perhaps?

P.S. I'm not saying that teachers don't have a stressfull time!



LilyP - Jan 17, 2004 8:44 pm (#226 of 2971)

SK - I agree. Part of me sees Harry as the head of Hogwarts some day. Although, that seems like a long way off. Not a job for right out of school. He would need/want more life experience first.

In the meantime, I wonder about a possible job with the Department of Mysteries. My impression of them are that they are like Aurors, only more elite.

Later, when he's ready to slow down, he can go back to Hogwarts and teach for a while. Wouldn't it be a coup if he were to teach potions. Then on to Headmaster until retirement.



Sinister Kittens - Jan 18, 2004 3:25 am (#227 of 2971)

Hey Lily, nice to see you back! I agree with you, the teaching would have to wait until he was older, if he ended up as Potions master would that mean that Snape gets the DADA job? Arrggghhh, poor future students (sorry Gina, only joking!).

But what to do in the mean-time? Personally I would find it rather ironic if Harry worked for the MOM in any capacity, seeing as they are partly responsible for alot of his problems.



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 18, 2004 9:18 am (#228 of 2971)

I dunno. I see Harry taking the DADA position if he gets a teaching job at Hogwarts. Potions is too much of a stretch for me. Even though he thinks he did well on his OWL for it. Potions is too... I don't know. I think he'd rather leave it to Snape. One, though he can do it, it doesn't mean that he'll want to teach it. And two, I think he'll get some perverse pleasure out of getting the job that Snape want's so badly.



Q. Trimble - Jan 18, 2004 12:24 pm (#229 of 2971)

I think that McGonagall will fulfil her words to Umbridge and give Harry all the training that he needs to become an auror. I also think that as Dumbledore's most loyal supporter she will be the one to deliver Voldemort's favourite, Bellatrix, her comeuppance and that this will greatly impress Harry and encourage him to be more committed academically. Possibly Harry may come to surpass Hermione in terms of magical talent and their relationship may become something similar to that of McGonagall and Dumbledore.

In any case I think he is eventually going to come into his own as a 'wizard,' as it's already been established that he is an exceptional person.



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 18, 2004 1:07 pm (#230 of 2971)

I agree Trimble. Harry is an exceptional wizard. He just hasn't really applied himself yet, like some other Hogwarts students we know and love. I think whatever he wants to become, he'll work towards that goal with all he's got.

One other question... Seeing as James wasn't a prefect in Snape's memory, but Hagrid said he was Head Boy in his day, does that mean Harry could become prefect or whatever next year? Do y'all think he would he want to? Does someone know more about this system than I?



Devika - Jan 19, 2004 6:07 am (#231 of 2971)

Cliff Hamaker, I think that is definitely a possibility. Especially now that DD appears to have seen that he was at fault in being over-protective with Harry. He himself felt the need to justify Harry's exclusion from the prefects. He might make Harry a prefect now even if it is to show him that he can trust him with some responsibilty. Being a prefect won't hurt Harry's confidence either.



mollis - Jan 19, 2004 9:23 am (#232 of 2971)

I must respectfully disagree, I do not think that Harry will be made prefect next year. Primarily because to do so, Ron would be kicked out of being a prefect, and I don't think DD would do that to any student. However, I do think that in his 7th year, Harry will be head boy (Ron and Hermione will remain prefects). Harry will be the perfect choice, because he'll be fighting to protect the students from Voldy anyway. Why not make him the official protector of students as the head boy?



popkin - Jan 19, 2004 1:54 pm (#233 of 2971)

I think Ron will be head boy, because that was his heart's desire in the Mirror of Erised, and he's well on his way to achieving it. He's won the House Cup - now all he has to do is become quiditch captain and become head boy.



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 19, 2004 4:25 pm (#234 of 2971)

As much as I *love* Ron, I'd rather see Harry as prefect or Head Boy. Partly because I Ron's a little slow on the uptake... And in general. And partly because I like Harry more.



Czarina - Jan 19, 2004 5:42 pm (#235 of 2971)

Didn't Dumbledore say that he figured Harry had enough responsibility as it was? How has this responsibility lessened at the end of OoP? I think Harry will continue battling Voldemort, probably with special privileges in the Order, and lead the DA as maybe a legitimate club. He will continue with his studies, commit himself to Occlumency, and lead Gryffindor to win the Quidditch Cup. Harry would have too much responsibility as Head Boy (in Book 7, or as Prefect in Book 6). I mean, you can't have your Head Boy struggling with nightmares of possessing snakes, can you?



Sly Girl - Jan 19, 2004 5:45 pm (#236 of 2971)

I know Harry was disappointed about the whole Prefect thing, but... do you guys think he even wants Head Boy? I mean, he may just figure... er.. yeah, got this whole kill the Dark Lord thing vs Making sure first years stay in line... hmmm...



mollis - Jan 20, 2004 8:21 am (#237 of 2971)

That is the reason that I don't think Harry will be prefect at all, too much additional responsibility. But does Head Boy really do much? Aside from giving the initial prefect orientation on the train, what does the head boy do? The main thing I remember Percy doing as head boy was to watch over all the students sleeping in the great Hall after Sirius' attack. And who would you rather have in charge of protecting the student body, Harry or Ron? Or maybe Malfoy? I think that VWII may be in full swing at that point (7th year), so the head boy may be a protector more than a disciplinarian (sp?).



S.E. Jones - Jan 20, 2004 8:57 am (#238 of 2971)

I thought the Head Boy and Girl were responsible for coordinating and controlling the Prefects..?.... I agree that Harry will most likely be Head Boy, but I don't think he'll be a prefect first.

Frankly, I was rather glad that Harry wasn't made prefect in OotP. He said that, had he remembered about Prefects' badges being sent out, he would have expected himself to get one, not Ron. He then wonders if he really thinks himself better than his friend. Perhaps it's good for Harry to let someone else step in in a leadership-like role. It might help to remind him of that humility that we love so much....



freshwater - Jan 20, 2004 12:11 pm (#239 of 2971)

Good point, S.E. Jones. I especially love the internal dialogue he has with himself, such as when the prefect pins come and after watching his father in the pensieve. That kind of internal conversation--questioning his own perceptions, feelings and motivations--is an excellent example for HP's younger readers (well, all of us, really!).



Devika - Jan 21, 2004 1:36 am (#240 of 2971)

If Harry is made prefect, it might give him the chance to not only enhance his own confidence, but also to get to know fellow students better. I mean Harry has never been the very social type who knows half the school. Being in the position of a prefect or a Head Boy could give him the opportunity to harnass more support maybe for his side...



Peregrine - Jan 21, 2004 11:15 am (#241 of 2971)

But he may not need that status to get to know the other students now. Before a majority of them were scared to death of him and now they know the truth and may be more eager to know him (whether it's because they like him or his fame). After the Quibbler article, lots of students were wanting to talk to him.



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 21, 2004 1:36 pm (#242 of 2971)

Ok, I'm just really biased towards Harry. I identify strongly with him for whatever reason and personally I don't think that Ron is better than Harry in many areas, if any at all, and I think that Harry could have handled being Prefect. Life is hard. Why should he have it easy now? Yes, he's alrady had a hard life, but being a Prefect involved what? A few lectures and leading the first-years to the dorms? Besides the occasional disciplinarian role, which we saw noe too often in OoP, what responsibilities does being a Prefect hold? Now that I think about it, I'm inclined to think that this is the one time that Dumbleydore wasn't entirely honest, barring any more evidence that being a Prefect is any more trying that previously thought.

Related question, is being a Prefect/Head Boy or Girl like being an RA(Residental Asst) in college?

And to add my thoughts to something that Devika said, Harry has always been on the outside looking in really with the other students at Hogwarts. Outside of the Weasleys and his dormmates, he doesn't socialize with many other students because of the way they percieve Harry: as the Boy Who Lived. So, I don't think that it's Harry as much as the rest of the student body for the reason that he isn't that social. I think that Harry is a social person, it's just that not too many want to be social with him in return.

Along with that, I really hope to see Harry grow up emotionally in book 6 and 7. In the past 5 books, Harry, or one of the others, has always made some comment or observation about how the rest of the student body is reacting towards Harry. I know that Harry is emotionally resilient, but I think he still takes it personally whn hey look at him in suspicion or fear, and takes some perverse pleasure at the fact that they all love him when he is proven correct. I just hope that he can overcome this, and realise that, as Emerson put it, "Society is a wave".



Madame Librarian - Jan 21, 2004 2:53 pm (#243 of 2971)

To helpt sort out my own thinking on why Harry was not made prefect (a few have been mentioned before), I thought it would be helpful to make a list of all the possible reasons that occurred to me:

1)--DD felt that Harry would be busy enough with keeping Voldie at bay.
2)--DD needed to keep Harry out of the limelight as much as possible. As prefect, students would naturally know him better and there would be more casual chatter about him.
3)--DD himself was trying to have as little contact as possible with Harry. As prefect, he'd most likely need to communicate with him more.
4)--DD gave Ron the position so as to put him in a leadership position. This would bolster Ron's confidence and in the long run, help Harry in the battles ahead.
5)--(This one really is hard to type.)It bodes Harry's death (no!) or his not being part of the Trio for some reason. Ron and Hermione are the Duo, there is no more Trio.
6)--DD knew that Harry was in a baaad state emotionally and simply wouldn't be a good prefect just then.

And, of course, there's the "None of the Above" and "All of the Above" approach. Any thoughts?

Ciao. Barb



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 21, 2004 3:08 pm (#244 of 2971)

HARRY CAN'T DIE!!!!!!

Sorry, I just can't bear the thought of.... You've made me sad...

Anyway, I think that at least some, if not most, of those reason are plausible.

I'm still pulling for Harry to be the Head Boy though!



freshwater - Jan 21, 2004 7:04 pm (#245 of 2971)

If being a prefect was too much for Harry to take on in 5th year (what with saving the WW from evil and all), I can't see him taking on the role of Head Boy for his 7th, when the final showdown with LV is due. I think JKR's point here may be that it isn't always the recognized "leaders" who are doing the leading or being the most effective.



Czarina - Jan 22, 2004 5:24 pm (#246 of 2971)

I think if Rowling makes Harry the Head Boy, she might be backtracking on her message. Harry is a hero, yes, but he is not an "all-star" if you like. If he had extremely good school grades (with a better attitude toward his studies) and seemed to handle his fame a bit better in addition to playing Quidditch, I might be more inclined to believe him as Head Boy. Harry Potter as the Head Boy would be too cliche. He is already famous and doesn't need the extra attention or responsibility. Ron is the underdog of the trio and it would be nice for him to be Head Boy, but I wouldn't mind having some other character get the role -- Ernie MacMillan, maybe. (As long as it's not Malfoy!)



Sly Girl - Jan 22, 2004 5:29 pm (#247 of 2971)

Exactly Czarina! I've been trying to articulate those thoughts too and you did it perfectly. Although, you could argue that JKR may think Harry might like some sort of connection to his father.. you know, father was a Head Boy, son was a Head Boy.. that sort of thing.

I always thought Harry sort of wanted the prefect thing because he hated to be separated from Ron and Hermione, not because he had this dying urge to serve the school in any capacity.



S.E. Jones - Jan 22, 2004 8:47 pm (#248 of 2971)

Cliff: Besides the occasional disciplinarian role, which we saw noe too often in OoP, what responsibilities does being a Prefect hold?

Don't the Prefects have to make regular patrols of the hallways in shifts? Maybe Dumbledore knew that Harry was going to have enough homework and stress that he simply didn't want to pull more time away from him or dump more responsibility on him than he had to....



Czarina - Jan 23, 2004 5:00 am (#249 of 2971)

All, if Harry is patrolling the hallway, there is only one MORE convenient time for something bad to happen to him -- especially if he were on his own.



Flame Alligator - Jan 23, 2004 7:54 am (#250 of 2971)

Czarina, I agree with you. Harry is the hero. Head boy added to his plate of concerns would be too much and possibly endanger his life unduly. Harry is an outsider and I don't think being social and popular are going to change that this fact. He is also introspective as a hero should be. I was not surprised at his attitude when Ron was made Prefect. I certainly think Harry is more qualified and this is why he is disappointed that he was not made Prefect. He has not quite caught on that he is an outsider. Harry as Head Boy I just don't see it. How can he fulfil such a position that has so many obligations and responsibilities?



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Cliff Hamaker - Jan 24, 2004 3:03 pm (#251 of 2971)

Now I think that Harry won't get it. And that he'll realize what a pain it really is and be able to laugh at Ron for a bit. I also think it's good for their friendship. Since forever, Ron's always been second to him, and now he REALLY isn't. But I don't think it will strain the friendship any.



Sharker11 - Jan 27, 2004 10:28 am (#252 of 2971)

I know this a completely new topic, but oh well. I found this quote, somewhere I can't remember, (suger quill maybe?), it has to do with what Albus said at the end of CoS, which I think with the prophecy, that we now known, what he said there was nothing more then him manipulating Harry. "In some ways I truly feel sorry for Harry. He is a weapon and a pawn more than he knows. He has never truly been in control of his own life. Others have manipulated and used him, fought over him, and basically controlled all aspects of his own life. What freedoms he has had have been under the scrutiny and supervision of others anyhow. I know that's a harsh way to look at it, but I think that is why the references to the sword and Harry's accomplishments are being repeated throughout the story. At this point, Harry, like any sword in the creation process is being tempered and tested and soon will be placed into the fray full force to succeed or fail. Hopefully, if he succeeds he will not break in the process."

The choices we make was supposed to be a lesson of JKR stories. With the prophecy has Harry ever really made a choice, or has his entire life bin set in stone before he was born. Their is also the fact that without all available information to make decisions, he isn't really in control in OotP.



Madame Librarian - Jan 27, 2004 11:23 am (#253 of 2971)

Sharker11, please read the discussion that takes place on the thread devoted to the topic you've mentioned just now. It's a thread titled "Fate (the Prophecy) or Choices", and it deals with what you are talking about, I think. Look for it below on the Forum, or try this link

click here

I think if the discussion picks up on this topic, we should transfer you post #252 to that thread and revive it, so to speak.

Ciao. Barb



Sharker11 - Jan 27, 2004 12:35 pm (#254 of 2971)

opps, sorry

Lets just talk about how much Harry really is in charge of his own life, via people controling him. (?) The quote I through in.



Madame Librarian - Jan 27, 2004 1:48 pm (#255 of 2971)

Well, Sharker11, the first reaction that comes to mind is that for Harry and many teens, it's both--tons of controlling adults, and the first real bits of freedom in determining your own path. It's definately a time of being stuck between childhood and adult. It's very hard to even talk about this without reverting to cliches.

In some ways, because he essentially has no family that truly cares about what he does at Hogwarts--the Durleys only meddle when he's living at Privet Drive--Harry has more freedom than some. He won't get any howlers from Petunia like Ron gets from Molly. He doesn't have any siblings to compete with in terms of playing Quidditch, being prefect, etc. Nobody cares if he stays at Hogwarts over the holidays as Hermione's parents probably did a little when she decided not to go with them on a ski trip.

So, as Harry has said more than once, Hogwarts is his home, and he feels that Hagrid, DD and even McGonagall are more like his parents than anyone else. Until Sirius, that is. Most of them all have huge expectations of him because he's the Boy Who Lived. There is a tacit understanding from almost the beginning that the fate of the Wizarding World rests on his shoulders. Even though this is not clearly articulated to him until the end of OoP, I have to believe at some level everyone reacts to Harry with this thought, and Harry feels it.

In some ways, Sirius is such an attractive father figure for him, because he just wants Harry to be Harry. Now, the reason for that may be because when he looks at Harry, he sees James, a friend, not a responsibilty, but no matter, he still probably doesn't look at Harry with that odd look people might unconsciously have when they think they might be looking at the next Most Powerful Wizard (to borrow a phrase from another thread). And, at the same time, he doesn't want to shelter Harry from grim (pun intended) facts of life about the past, the Order, the dangers, etc. But for whatever reason Sirius wants to clue Harry in, it's an issue of how much in control Harry will be. With all the information laid out before him, he'll have more decisions to make, but they'll be his. I'm not arguing for or against this. As the mother of a 19-year-old, I'm fully aware of the bizarre combination of rational adult and inexperienced child contained in one boy's mind.

Sheesh, I've on on too long. If anyone can figure out the elusive points I'm trying to make, please, I'd love to hear some other ideas.

Ciao. BArb



S.E. Jones - Jan 27, 2004 8:33 pm (#256 of 2971)

Actually, going back to Sharker's initial post, I find it very interesting. When I first heard about "the weapon" in OotP, I, like Harry, wondered if it wasn't him. After finding out about the Prophecy, I found myself convinced that it was, indeed, him. The only question left in my mind was who intended to use him? I think Dumbledore's speech about the "flaw in his plan" reveals a great deal more than just him caring for Harry. I think it showed that he saw Harry as something of a weapon initially that he was going to have to use, whether he wanted to or not, and that was why his line about not caring about nameless faces as long as Harry was safe is so poignant. I think this points to Harry having indeed less control over his life than he, or we, thought. He is sort of a tool of fate. The real question here is, will he ever look at his own fate this way? Will he see himself as being used as a "weapon of choice"? How will he react?

Barb, excellently put. I'd like to add that I think part of the reason Sirius reacted differently to Harry, especially initially, was because he probably looked at Harry and saw that little baby he used to hold. He probably knew Harry from the time he was in the womb to the time he went to the Dursleys, as long, though not quite as well, as his parents. In contrast, the wizarding world looks at Harry and sees only the Boy Who Lived or The Next Greatest Wizard of the Age and nothing else. Also, I think Sirius was more willing to give Harry information because he realized that Harry would not be fighting on the front line, he is the front line. The only way to keep him alive is the make sure he knows what he is doing and what is going on around him....



Julia. - Jan 27, 2004 8:42 pm (#257 of 2971)

Excellent Sarah, take 25 points! You're right, Sirius did realize that Harry needed to know what was going on. (Sorry if this sounds weird, I can't quite find the words to explain my thoughts) The poor guy has so much happen to him, that makes him a rather important person. Dumbledore was right in saying that he should have told Harry about the prophecy long ago, and I think he's learned his lesson about keeping people in the dark. Well, that's as much sence as I can make now, I'll try again in the morning. Night all.



Peregrine - Jan 28, 2004 8:16 am (#258 of 2971)

Oh, Sarah, you got me all teary with that post.

I don’t know how, but it never occurred to me that Harry really could be the weapon. I just chalked it up to him being paranoid and I completely forgot about it by the end of the book. Then I subsequently thought it was the actual prophesy that was the weapon (the information it held) but never thought that it was an actual physical thing (i.e. Harry). Interesting. Looks like I need to read the book again.



Flame Alligator - Jan 28, 2004 10:34 am (#259 of 2971)

If I may put my 2 cents in, Madame Librarian, S.E. Jones I agree completely. I might add that the prophecy is a weapon in as much as it tells about Harry and how Voldemort can be destroyed and vanquished whichever may occur. Harry is the weapon and he does have fate ruling his life but then again don't we all. We all have a path in life. We can choose to disregard our purpose, our fate. I see this everyday and it seems to turn people neurotic and depressed. There are other forces at work besides our egos trying to have our way all the time. Sometimes fate knows better.

This is not to say that Harry is not justified in being angry but I'm hoping he will come to terms with his destiny. After all, How often does one get the opportunity to be a hero. Harry is heroic by nature. Should he deny what he is and thumb his nose at destiny?



Sly Girl - Jan 28, 2004 10:40 am (#260 of 2971)

Harry is heroic by nature, yes, but I'm not sure if he really wants to be a hero. Which sort of makes him more heroic, in a sense, because he fights it. But yes, I do agree he will come to peace about what he needs to do. He has to. It will be what saves his life. I can't imagine JKR killing off her creation, no matter how many cynical thoughts I read on the subject.



Julia. - Jan 28, 2004 1:58 pm (#261 of 2971)

Ok, this is what I was trying to say last night, only hopefully it will come out better now that I'm posting in the middle of the afternoon. What I was trying to say is that it is dangerous for Harry not to know what's going on. We all saw what happened when he was kept in the dark (Siriu's death). I think that Dumbledore, now knowing about Harry's personality trait of being rash and acting without thinking, will be a lot less hesitant to hold information from Harry. So basically, I think he's learned his lesson.



Mad Madame Mim - Jan 28, 2004 7:59 pm (#262 of 2971)

I keep pondering a line in OoP about Harry's scar. On page 178 in the US printing are these two lines:

"Without warning, the scar on his forehead seared with pain again and his stomach churned horribly.

'Cut it out,' he said firmly, rubbing the scar as the pain receded again."

I keep thinking that this is hinting that Harry has the ability to control it... maybe even get into Voldemort's mind at will. This would make Harry an extraordinary weapon.

As to Harry's hero complex... He didn't choose to be the Boy Who Lived. Its his heart that leads him through the circumstances that are given to him. He has been put in a role by Dumbledore and Voldemort where he has no choice but to be the hero. His heart won't let him sit the side lines as people get hurt.



Devika - Jan 29, 2004 1:35 am (#263 of 2971)

Mim, I think you've made a great observation. This might mean that the link between Harry and Voldemort has taken new dimensions. While Voldemort is aware that he can in a way transplant his thoughts into Harry's head, it might just strike Harry that vice versa is possible as well. Right now it might be a subconscious thing, but there's some scope in that.

As for Harry himself being a weapon, I'm not sure if weapon is the right word. Weapon implies that he is going to be used by someone (we assume DD here) to defeat Voldemort. But it seems to me that it is his fight alone and he alone will know how to defeat Voldy. JKR has made this point quite often, that ultimately for Harry this will be a solitary struggle. In PS he faces Quirrel alone, in CoS he faces the basilisk alone, in PoA he faces the dementors alone, and even in GoF he is alone at the graveyard and duels single-handedly with Voldemort. It seems to me that all his friends and after one stage even Dumbledore will ultimately be reduced to the status of ancillaries, or support systems while Harry takes the stage. There is a strong chance the DD has had his moment of glory with Voldemort in OoP, and now it will be up to Harry to take over, especially now that he knows it is all in his hands. So the observation that Harry himself is the weapon, I guess, is a sort of self-evident statement. He has to power to vanquish the Dark Lord, so the Dark Lord would automatically want to destroy or control him. But if we look at what Harry's role in the future might be, in my opinion, weapon is not exactly an appropriate word.



Flame Alligator - Jan 29, 2004 10:42 am (#264 of 2971)

Devika, I see what you mean about the use of the word weapon. I think it is Fate that is using Harry as the weapon to balance the wizard world. Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort was already in play, so to speak, when Harry became the boy who lived. Without Harry eventually Voldemort would take over the Wizard World. Yes, I whole heartedly agree, Harry will face The Dark Lord alone.

When Harry first starting having the dream/visions of Voldemort, I figured eventually he is going to be able to reverse this process and use it to his advantage. Is not this what occlumency (sp.?) lessons are leading to? Harry just lacks experience and needs more tools (spells, potions etc.) at his disposal. So far, Voldemort has been in a weakened condition when Harry confronted him. His education, his friends all these things are developing his character/personality for the final confrontation.



S.E. Jones - Jan 29, 2004 5:50 pm (#265 of 2971)

Devika: As for Harry himself being a weapon, I'm not sure if weapon is the right word. Weapon implies that he is going to be used by someone (we assume DD here) to defeat Voldemort. But it seems to me that it is his fight alone and he alone will know how to defeat Voldy.

Keep in mind, Devika, that even a soldier can be considered a weapon as he is trained to kill by another, similar to a sword being swung by an arm. How many military units have been equated to weapons throughout history in textbooks and the like, though they act reflexively to their situations? Dumbledore is training him to kill/destroy Voldemort. My point was that perhaps this may come at some cost to Harry and Dumbledore may realize that and that's why he initially saw caring for him as a "flaw in his plan".

I agree that fate is what is manuevering Harry right now, as with all of us to some point, but I disagree that he has as much choice in his life as most of us. "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...". I think that, should Harry decide he doesn't want to be the hero who charges into the fight, the fight will simply come looking for him. It is simply fated to happen.



Matt Allair - Jan 29, 2004 8:22 pm (#266 of 2971)

Hi Cliff, it's really great to see you back here again, long time missed! I also love that Emerson quote. I have been one of those long time believers that Harry would become an Auror. Why would JKR bring up the idea a number of times in the last two books, if she wasn't dropping a hint about Harry's future?

I agree, I think Harry's 'fame' would be an advantage. I could see a rival wizard quaking in their shoes if they heard Auror Harry Potter was after them!



Essidji - Jan 30, 2004 12:46 am (#267 of 2971)

Whatever we call this, he's going to fight to save his own skin... It's more like a duel than the use of a weapon person to me...



S.E. Jones - Feb 14, 2004 2:20 pm (#268 of 2971)

I just thought of a reason that people may not volunteer information to Harry about his parents and would like to know what everyone thinks. When Hagrid came to deliver Harry's Hogwarts acceptance letter to him in PS he says, "yeh'll know all about Hogwarts, o'course," expecting his Aunt and Uncle to have told him all about his parents and past and where he was going. Upon finding out that Harry doesn't know about Hogwarts or the wizarding world he says, "Do you mean ter tell me that this boy -- this boy! -- knows nothin' abou' -- about ANYTHING?..... About our world, I mean. Your world. My world. Yer parents' world." He's obviosly in shock! Could the reason people don't volunteer information to Harry about his parents be because they think he already knows, they think he's been told at some point while growing up? How many people do you think know that Petunia and Vernon kept him locked in a cupboard for the greater part of his life?



Madame Librarian - Feb 14, 2004 2:32 pm (#269 of 2971)

Sarah, not that I bothered to think about it much before, but I agree that it may only be Ron, the Weasleys, Hermione, DD, McGonagall, and Hagrid who know during book 1 what Harry's childhood was like. Later, I'm sure Sirius and Lupin will have been clued in. By OoP, I think most of the Order members (at least those who came to get him) were briefed. I suspect that Neville and Luna have a clue that Harry had a rough time of it at home; maybe Hermione or Ginny mentioned a few details to them. I think it's quite likely that a good number of students don't know. Just think how Malfoy would take this up somehow and taunt Harry with it if it was general knowledge.

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Feb 14, 2004 2:36 pm (#270 of 2971)

I sometimes wonder just how much the Weasleys, and Ron and Hermione for that matter, really know about Harry's life growing up. Has he ever mentioned being locked in a cupboard to Ron or Hermione, for instance? I know the Weasleys know he had it rough and that he's not treated well at home but they may still not know to the full extent.... Dumbledore, and to some extent Lupin and Sirius, probably have a much better idea, though....



Madame Librarian - Feb 14, 2004 2:42 pm (#271 of 2971)

Well, it's possible that Harry would share some of the more outrageous incidents with his friends not to gain sympathy because they are sad (which they are), but mostly because they are very hilarious. And, remember, Ron and the twins literally tear the bars off his bedroom window to get him out of the Dursley house in CoS. I mean, that's pretty dramatic. "Say, Harry, you want to tell us why you have bars on your window? Was your Aunt Petunia just trying some new decorating scheme?" I think his friends know bits and pieces, enough to get a pretty good idea of the dreadful people Harry has had to live with.

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Feb 14, 2004 3:07 pm (#272 of 2971)

A good idea, yeah, but not the full extent. My whole point was, the Weasleys (meaning the older members of the family) and others may know things about James and Lily, simple things like what they did for a living, that they haven't voluntarily told Harry because they think he may already know.... Other people may not know that his aunt and uncle have tried to keep information from him.....



mooncalf - Feb 14, 2004 10:50 pm (#273 of 2971)

Good point, Madame Librarian. Harry is very good at keeping things to himself, he is certainly not the sort to tell stories to gain sympathy, and he is not particularly chatty. Some of his story seems to be common knowledge; in CoS, Ernie MacMillan says that "Everyone knows' that Harry hates "those Muggles you live with." But I wouldn't think that the particulars of why he hates them are well known.



Denise P. - Feb 15, 2004 1:51 pm (#274 of 2971)

My whole point was, the Weasleys (meaning the older members of the family) and others may know things about James and Lily, simple things like what they did for a living, that they haven't voluntarily told Harry because they think he may already know

Very good point, Sarah. It doesn't occur to them to volunteer information since they assume he knows it. It may also be that other believe it would be painful to Harry if it were mentioned.

The only part that doesn't gel with that idea is the numerous casual mentions of incidental information that people say in regular conversations. "Remember when James slipped on that memo in the office?" or "Lily never did like it when that happened to her" ...that kind of mention. Of course, we never really see any friends other than Lupin and Sirius and neither were exactly forthcoming in details.

Could there be some sort of magical ban that prevents people from telling Harry for reasons not yet disclosed? That would certainly explain the glaring lack of information about his parents.



S.E. Jones - Feb 15, 2004 2:34 pm (#275 of 2971)

Magical ban? Hm, interesting... Or, perhaps just some community wide consensus, like them agreeing to say "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" instead of Voldemort (admittedly this is out of fear, but it could be out of respect or sympathy for the Potters and Harry), though I don't know why that would be....



Maollelujah - Feb 15, 2004 5:39 pm (#276 of 2971)

It has always been my impression that the Weasleys didn't know Harry's parents.

As for the magical ban, I don't think there is one. It is just Harry has never asked anyone that many questions about his parents. So maybe he already knows or he is just not interested...



Weeny Owl - Feb 15, 2004 7:07 pm (#277 of 2971)

I think Harry is interested, but conditioning is difficult to overcome. Harry said something in the first book about learning at an early age not to ask questions of the Dursleys, and he may think that pertains to most, if not all, adults.



Peregrine - Feb 16, 2004 11:45 am (#278 of 2971)

After the Pensieve scene in OoP, when Harry is in the fire talking to Sirius and Lupin, they're almost surprised that he wants to talk about his dad. I've never really understood if it's because they were expecting some horrible news, or because it never occurred to them before that Harry doesn't know much about James.

It's also weird that, in PoA, when Harry finds out Lupin knew his dad instead of asking questions about James, he asks about Sirius (especially taking into account that he just heard his father's voice in his head).



fidelio - Feb 16, 2004 2:16 pm (#279 of 2971)

I think he absorbed at a very early age that it was dangerous to ask questions about his parents. Look at some of the reastions we've seen from Vernon Dursley--nailing the house shut to avoid the Hogwarts letters, the escape trip to the tiny island, his conniption fit over the business at the zoo, the fit he pitched in front of Hagrid id SS/PS, His reaction at the start of CoS, and so on. With a human volcano like that around, it's easy to see, however desperate Harry's curiosity might be, that he asks no questions. He's curious [remember his reaction to the mirror of Erised] but he's been conditioned to keep his mouth shut.



megfox - Feb 16, 2004 6:19 pm (#280 of 2971)

I just hope that he learns his lesson from this book and will start asking questions!



Madame Librarian - Feb 19, 2004 9:45 am (#281 of 2971)

OK, a great deal of the current discussion on the Snape, Dumbledore, and Dumbledore/Snape threads naturally involves the complex three-way relationship between Harry, Snape, and DD. In a number of posts it's mentioned how some of Snape's dislike for Harry is because he's always breaking the rules, getting away with stuff, not thinking the rules apply to him. This is a recurring complaint from Snape throughout the books, and I wonder if JKR is hinting at something larger here. Is it possible that Harry's proclivity to break the rules will apply to the prophecy itself? Is there something about this kid that will "break the rules" of the prophecy, i.e., that either he or Voldie must die (be vanquished?)?

I was planning to make a grand list of all the instances where Harry is caught breaking the rules, but [*sighs in partial exhaustion*], I am not up to a huge research project just now due to a bad cold and the feeling of loads of cotton between my ears. However, maybe this partial list (in no particular order) is enough to get us going on this topic if you think it's worth a little discussion:

1)--Harry is the Boy Who Lived. He broke the rule that an AK curse is unblockable.

2)--Harry argues with the Sorting Hat to avoid being chosen for Slytherin. This is a bit of rule-breaking, too. Most kids wouldn't dare to speak up.

3)--Insert here all the school rules (after hours snooping, etc.) that he breaks.

4)--He can produce a patronus at an exceptionally early age.

5)--The Ford Anglia incident.

6)--He's an exceptional flyer, makes the Quidditch team as a first year.

I'm out of things to list, so I'll stop. Feel free to add to it if you like, but mostly I'm looking for your comments on the whole idea of Harry being a rule breaker and what that may mean.

Ciao. Barb



Peregrine - Feb 19, 2004 11:11 am (#282 of 2971)

He's also escaped Voldemort how many times now? Five?



Dr Filibuster - Feb 19, 2004 3:04 pm (#283 of 2971)

Barb, once again I am nodding at your post.

The books make such a big thing about choices being important that it feels odd for a prophesy to figure so promenantly, eventhough the prophesy doesn't say who will win.

In my opinion, Rowling obviously believes in freewill over fate.

I like the fact that the prophesy is a kind of self-fullfilling one for Voldemort. It certainly wields power over him despite the fact that he only knows part of it and heard it second hand. He tracked down baby Harry and tried to kill him. This very act caused his biggest downfall yet.

Harry can't just ignore the prophesy, it's the reason the Dark Lord's after him. If he refuses to believe in it will he have an advantage over Voldemort? How can he bend it's rules, or not let it affect his choices? Am I thinking about the movie "Minority Report" too much?

Harry seems to inspire/force/persuade others to bend rules, or just chose to act differently. Lots of characters behave in a manner that goes against the rules of their "type" eg;

Book 1, A centaur helping a human, probably saving his life. A class wimp voluntarily joining a fight with the school bullies. The class swot lying to teachers and breaking school rules regularly ever since.

Book 2, A house-elf knowingly acting against his master's will. A ghost who's only ever been a miserable bloody nuisance for 50 years gets a crush on our hero and tells him about the basilisk and where it came from. An acromantula who gives 2 humans information. A house-elf who issues demands to his ex-master and magically throws him down stairs.

Book 3, A decent werewolf, also a teacher, who helped him out of a tight spot with Snape. A dangerous and deranged escaped prisoner who was persuaded not to committ murder.

Book 4, Mrytle helpful and full of adivce again. tri-wizard competitors helping each other. A house elf stealing school potion supplies.

Book 5, A fiercely muggle aunt confirming Harry's explanation of Dementors, a squib who helps to protect a wizard, all those prefects in a banned club (DA).

All those characters doing all those things because of our Harry! By the end of book 7 there should be hundreds of them breaking rules. Do you see a magic-world revolution as well as a show down with Voldemort?



Madame Librarian - Feb 19, 2004 3:50 pm (#284 of 2971)

One important broken "rule" that hadn't occurred to me until just now is the very telling one that even DD comments--how normal (though a tad underfed) Harry has turned out. That's amazing given what we know about child abuse and withdrawal of love. Harry grows up in a cruel, unloving household, constantly faced with his toad of a cousin who has parental love in abundance, yet our Harry is pretty OK.

Here's the quote I'm basing this on. It's in OoP, ch. 37, pg. 837 (US):

Five years ago, then, continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story, "you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well nourished as I would have like, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hope under the circumstances...."

[Whoa. This is spooky. I grabbed the book off the shelf and it opened right to that page. *Theme from "The Twilight Zone" plays in background*]

Ciao. Barb



popkin - Feb 19, 2004 8:00 pm (#285 of 2971)

There's no way that prophecy will be fulfilled in a straightforward fashion. I'm sure that Harry will end up interpreting some part of it literally, where we are accepting the more obvious meaning (like "the hand of the other" - that phrase could be interpreted to work in quite a few different situations).



Devika - Mar 7, 2004 3:23 am (#286 of 2971)

Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor? JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be related to. Maybe he is Wink

What do all of you read into this staement. I think Harry isn't related to Godric Gryffindor (I've always believed the contrary, but this statement makes me rethink), but to some other character we know. I think the most likely candidate is Dumbledore. Does anyone have any other ideas?? I find the staement particularly intriguing, since it almost tells us that Harry is related to someone we know. Who could this be and why has he/she not told this to Harry yet??



Dr Filibuster - Mar 7, 2004 7:55 am (#287 of 2971)

I am currently of the opinion that Harry is not a descendant of Godric Gryffinor.

I did wonder if the question was asked by the ex-forum member Jami though.



Czarina - Mar 7, 2004 10:56 am (#288 of 2971)

Well, it's quite possible that Harry is a descendant of Gryffindor -- the Founders lived a thousand years ago. It would be logical that quite a lot of the wizarding world is descended from all four, unless only Slytherin bothered to reproduce? Unlikely. There is probably a mixture of all four Founders in Harry and this will turn out to be a rather insignificant detail. A Muggle example might be how many British people could claim to be descendants of William the Conqueror -- they're not all royalty! I think the "heir of Slytherin" and likewise the "heir of Gryffindor" follow a particular bloodline only, not everyone. Riddle/Voldemort may be the "last descendant" of Salazar Slytherin as well as the HEIR of Slytherin (which would make sense). Harry Potter might very well be a DESCENDANT of Gryffindor, but someone else could be the HEIR of Gryffindor and that someone could be just about anybody.

In a nutshell, I think Harry is a descendant of Gryffindor, but not necessarily any sort of special Heir.



Robert Dierken - Mar 9, 2004 8:49 pm (#289 of 2971)

Somewhere I read that nearly all of the English are descended from King Edward the Third. If they are, they are also descendants of William the Conqueror.



Madame Librarian - Mar 10, 2004 2:43 pm (#290 of 2971)

OK...everyone, now...as loud as you can--"We are family, dah, da-dah, dah...."

Ciao. Barb



Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 13, 2004 4:34 am (#291 of 2971)

I would love to think Neville is the heir of Gryffindor, personally...

But I'm not too sure whether the device will be used again, since we were beaten round the head with the 'Heir of Slytherin' idea in CoS.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Mar 19, 2004 10:19 am (#292 of 2971)

I was reading through this thread, and came across where Vol said for Lily to move away. Not sure if this has been brought up or not...but here's a thought. I wonder if there is any relation between Lily and Tom Riddle. Afterall, Tom's father was a muggle (so is Lily's family). I wonder if that is why he didn't want to kill her, because they were related some how. Although Harry could of been related, he would of killed him merly for the reason that he could of been the one who brought him down in the end. I also brought this up in chat last night. Has anyone noticed that the lighting bolt on Harry's forehead looks like two V's put together? (was just a thought) I can't wait for the other books to come out so we can get so many unanwsered questions anwsered.



S.E. Jones - Mar 20, 2004 3:05 pm (#293 of 2971)

->I moved this post over from a duplicate thread.<-

Harry's Powers

vball man - Mar 20, 2004 2:00 pm

I believe that Harry has more magical power than Voldemort. His powers are not trained, but the raw power is there.

# Harry was down for Hogwart prior to the "curse that failed." Apparently students are chosen for Hogwarts by the quill at birth. Therefore he had powers of his own - as a wizard before the curse.

# Hagrid thought it was a no-brainer that he'd be a wizard with parents like James and Lily.

# Seems reasonable that Harry would inherit Magical ability/power from his parents.

# Harry seems to have gotten flying ability from his father.

How much power did Harry get from Vol at the curse? I think he gained an equal share of Vol's power.

# The prophecy said that Vol would mark him as his equal. - And that Harry would have power the Dark Lord knows not. (Dumbledore said that power was Love.)

# Harry beat Vol in the bead pushing game in GoF. (Priori Incantatem Chapter)

Certainly Vol has more magical knowledge. So much of Harry's power is "untapped."



Susurro Notities - Mar 20, 2004 8:21 pm (#294 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Mar 20, 2004 8:22 pm

While rereading GOF a few night ago, I noticed that when Harry was down in the lake for the second task, he was not able to speak a sound(a bubble came out), but he was still able to cast a spell to thwart the grindylows when they attacked him. Choices - Jan 12, 2004 6:03 pm (OoP, the battle at the MoM...why was I chuckling? #118)
Thank you Choices for another piece of evidence that Harry has superior wizarding talents.



S.E. Jones - Mar 21, 2004 3:03 am (#295 of 2971)

I agree that Harry's power is as yet untapped. In OotP, he is able to cast the Lumos spell without actually holding his wand. In GoF, he is able to learn the Summoning spell in, what was it, one day? He just needs to apply himself more.

Ooh, also found this from the World Day chat:
dsm: Are Harry's powers going to get even greater? JK Rowling replies -> Yes, he's really progressing as a wizard now (which is lucky, because I know what's in store for him).



FCBarca - Mar 22, 2004 1:27 pm (#296 of 2971)

I believe it utter stupidity and nonsense if JKR makes Harry more powerful than Voldemort, utter stupidity and nonsense! (this isn't a rant at you, Vball man, it's at JKR if she does it, which she will.)

Voldemort is more powerful than Harry, always has, always will. (Again, I'm not moaning at you, Vball man, you're right , Harry will become more powerful than Voldemort, because 'good will prevail'.) It's bad enough with Dumbledore being more powerful, but Harry! An 18 year old, more powerful than Lord Voldemort!

Voldemort, realistically, would prevail. He would conquer! But JKR will make it that he falters (that's obvious, of course, but it's still angering. )



Prefect Marcus - Mar 22, 2004 1:54 pm (#297 of 2971)

FC, if we were to follow what you seem to be arguing, there would be no need to hold competitions for anything. All we would have to do is poll the experts as to what was the most likely outcome, then award the winner accordingly. Just think how simplier life would be. :-)

Seriously, we already know that Harry has the stronger will. This was established back in GoF with the mental push game in the graveyard. Voldemort definitely came up second best there. We also know that Harry is lightning quick. Ol' Voldie's getting on in years.



Tomoé - Mar 22, 2004 2:25 pm (#298 of 2971)

And don't forget that Tom is almost 70 years old. Of course, that could count as 45 in muggle years, but even if there's life in him yet, I'm not sure he is still in his peak of power, so to speak. He have the advantage of the knowledge, though.

As we saw in the "mental push game in the graveyard", Harry have a stronger willpower than 70 years old Tom, but Tom could have be victorious against a 70 years old Harry.

The same could be said of the fight Tom vs Dumbledore. Seventy years old Tom seems to be the equal of 150 years old Dumbledore. Maybe DD would have easily win against a 150 years old Tom.



timrew - Mar 22, 2004 3:05 pm (#299 of 2971)

FCBarca, look on the bright side! JKR could have an ending to book seven where Voldemort kills Harry and goes on to rule the world forever, having discovered the secret of immortality.......

Oh.....and there goes a flying pig......



Prefect Marcus - Mar 22, 2004 4:42 pm (#300 of 2971)

Tomoe,

I not so sure I would say that Tom was Dumbledore' equal. One, I got the distinct impression that Dumbledore was pulling his punches. Even Voldemort commented on it, if you recall. Two, if it hadn't been for Fawkes's sacrifice, Voldie would have nailed Dumbledore with an A.K..

I think Dumbledore was concentrating more on protecting Harry than on actually fighting a duel with Voldemort.



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Tomoé - Mar 22, 2004 6:12 pm (#301 of 2971)

Right Marcus, that was a bad phrasing, 150 years old DD is at the very least the equal of 70 years old Tom.



S.E. Jones - Mar 22, 2004 6:48 pm (#302 of 2971)

Prefect Marcus: I think Dumbledore was concentrating more on protecting Harry than on actually fighting a duel with Voldemort.

I agree Marcus.

FCBarca: I believe it utter stupidity and nonsense if JKR makes Harry more powerful than Voldemort, utter stupidity and nonsense! (this isn't a rant at you, Vball man, it's at JKR if she does it, which she will.)

FC, what makes you think she'll make Harry stronger than Voldemort? I think they'll eventually (note the "eventual" part) be equal in magical ability. I think that's what the "mark him as his equal" part of the prophecy was referring to. I am referring to, well, gross magical ability/power here, so they can be equal in power but not be equal completely because Harry doesn't have the years of experience with magic that Voldemort does. Harry, however, has differring personality traits, etc. from Voldemort that I think will be what will make up for this and will allow even a 17-18 year old boy defeat the Dark Lord....



vball man - Mar 22, 2004 8:21 pm (#303 of 2971)

Wow, FCBarca. Lets see....I do think that is makes sense for JKR to make Harry more powerful than Vol. And more powerful than DD, for that matter. After all, the series is about Harry Potter.

There are other reasons to make Harry Potter the hero of the series besides that he's special in being SuperPowerful. So you certainly could be right. He could be less powerful.

In post #293, I gave my reasons why Harry seems more powerful than Vol. I think that calling it utter stupidity and nonsense may not be necessary. Anyone can take the points in that post one by one and disagree. I, for one, will be glad to read it.

I'll offer something against my own post: You could say that Vol was still sleepy after 14 years as a vapor - that's the only reason why he lost the beads of light fight.



AngelEyes18 - Mar 22, 2004 9:30 pm (#304 of 2971)

My bet is that they are both equal in ability to do magic and Harry just needs to learn to apply that ability in a very short time to be able to defeat Vol. Maybe that means that Harry will have to start working on training to be an auror (or like profession) so that he will aquire the knowledge that he needs to match his magical ability.



Essidji - Mar 23, 2004 1:14 am (#305 of 2971)

Reading your posts I was thinking about this old legend about little David getting rid of this powerful giant Goliath with a simple stone right between the eyes. A smaller and younger fighter can always win if he make unexpected attacks. This happens in real life, too! FCBarca, why being so bitter? There is always hope!

But I bet this is not going to be as simple as this. We know Harry sometimes feels so much anger that he feels he could kill (Voldemort in the graveyard, Sirius in the Shrieking Shack scene, and even Dumbledore in OOTP, when he was under Voldemort's influence). But we also know that Harry IS a genuine Griffindor (the sword at the end of COS), so I believe he will learn to control himself.

I mean, he may not kill Voldemort on his own will. Maybe he could just do it when defending himself, or maybe "the power of love" could have a surprising effect, leading to Voldemort's death without Harry expecting to...



FCBarca - Mar 23, 2004 4:24 am (#306 of 2971)

Vball man, you said in your last post: "In post #293, I gave my reasons why Harry seems more powerful than Vol. I think that calling it utter stupidity and nonsense may not be necessary."

But I said: 'This isn't a rant at you, Vball man, it's at JKR if she does it, which she will.'

Don't you see, I was having a go at JKR, not you, because what you said was right. (I know JKR can't hear me, I mean moaning about her, if she makes Harry more powerful.)

Harry will become more powerful than Voldemort. I was saying that, if JKR does that, I won't be very happy, that is all.



FCBarca - Mar 23, 2004 6:10 am (#307 of 2971)

I don't believe Harry has more will power than Voldemort. I believe the only reason Harry 'won' the 'bead-fight' was because all he wanted was to survive, and I believe the will to survive is stronger than any other will. There's no doubt Harry's will power outdone Voldemort's in the graveyard, but Voldemort was shocked at the effect of the two wands 'connecting'. Yes, Harry was shocked too, but all Harry wanted was to survive, so he hit the pain barrier and went past it. Voldemort, on the other hand, was shocked, so his mind was in a sense of disbelief, and that's why he 'lost'.

Harry and Voldemort won't duel, I'm sure. JKR will do it some other way. Harry can't duel with Voldemort, not because of the 'wand thing', but because Harry can't fight like Voldemort. JKR left us a powerful hint by having Harry say that he couldn't fight like Voldemort; and the even greater hint was that Dumbledore basically said that the power Harry possesses, the power Harry has and Voldemort doesn't, is love, in the same paragraph.

Dumbledore knows Harry has no chance in a duel with Voldemort. Just look at what Voldemort could do against Harry: He can conjure a shield that seems to stop any spell, except for the AK curse. He could transfigure objects, like Dumbledore can. He can apparate around the room, turn invisible (probably), perform the AK curse (remember, you have to want to kill someone to be able to perform it.) He could possess Harry. Dumbledore said that he can't, but Dumbledore is stupid. If Voldemort can't possess Harry, why did he (Dumbledore) not want to look at Harry, in case Voldemort possessed him and used him. You could say that Dumbledore wasn't sure of Harry's 'power', like love, which he can use to repel Voldemort. But Voldemort could get around that, by misdirecting Harry's thoughts and emotions. The list of what Voldemort can do and Harry can't goes on, and on, and on.

But JKR will make Harry more powerful, not by spell knowledge, but by some other stupid way. Like love, and caring, and all those type of things (those things aren't stupid, but making Harry more powerful than Voldemort because he can feel them, is stupid.)



nmnjr - Mar 23, 2004 6:20 am (#308 of 2971)

Going back to what Essidji (post #305) said:

I was in a fencing club in college and our instructor told us that a beginning fencer would be more likely to beat an experienced fencer than a mid-level one would. Why? Because they would do the unexpected. No one yet knew their style (harder to prepare against) and the beginner wouldn't follow convention as someone who had been fencing for a while would (they just hadn't "conformed" yet).

Harry will vanquish Voldemort by doing something in an unusual/ unique way...something Voldemort never even thought of.



Essidji - Mar 23, 2004 6:55 am (#309 of 2971)

Got it, Nmnjr, exactly what I meant! I suppose, just better said as you must be a native English speaker...

^_^



vball man - Mar 23, 2004 7:07 am (#310 of 2971)

'This isn't a rant at you, Vball man, it's at JKR Well, as Mis Rosana-Rosana-Dana used to say, Oh, well, that's very different, never mind.

You've mentioned something else interesting. The MoM scene in which DD makes Harry stay out of the fight. Eventually, Harry will have to do something. But for now, DD clearly does not think that Harry is up to it. This is a mystery.

I personally hope my RBL theory is right, because it gives a way for Harry to become SuperPowerful without it being stupid, as you say.



haymoni - Mar 23, 2004 7:26 am (#311 of 2971)

I think it was Emily Litilla, another character of the great Gilda Radner, that said "Never mind!"

I agree with Nmnjr - it will be something unexpected or something that doesn't go as planned but still manages to work.



Detail Seeker - Mar 23, 2004 9:52 am (#312 of 2971)

FC Barca, you - among other arguments - doubt, that Harry has the will to kill Voldemort, the will to get Avada Kedavra (AK)working. You, if I understand that right - think, that Harry cannot want to kill because of the love in him. To my mind - an e.g. Nietzsche said the same - love and hate are two sides of one coin. Voldemort endangering or killing or having killed somebody, whom Harry dearly loves, will drive him to really want to kill - then , there will be the power to make AK or other spells working.

As to abilities. Harry has about 1 1/2 years + left to learn a lot of good fighting spells. He is quite witty, when it comes push to shove, so all the ingedients to a powerful wizard at the height of his physical abilities are there. Harry will - that is my prophecy for this fight - kill Voldemort by a simple and absolutely unlikely spell. And afterwards he will have to think: "What a chance was there, that that worked..."

Look at GoF, where he realized, that the simple "Accio" would save him, not any sophisticated Dark Magic.

I like the fencing parallel: Those who show off with a lot of tricks and variants often enough fail against somebody who does the basic technique very consequent, concentrating either on the one strike, he wants to hit with or concentrating just on defending himself and thereby blowing the offensive defence of the opponent. He who attacks, opens his defence.



Dr Filibuster - Mar 23, 2004 2:33 pm (#313 of 2971)

Voldemort's in for a shock when Harry sticks a wand up one of his nostrils. Or whatever V has instead of nostrils.

Actually, I am reminded of Neville poking a Deatheater's eye in the MoM. That was a desperate act, only attempted after all his spells failed due to his broken nose....unyet it was still very effective.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I like that fencing parallel too NMNjR.



Madame Librarian - Mar 23, 2004 3:21 pm (#314 of 2971)

I was on a college fencing team--the only beginner that year. I had to work out and practice with all these more experienced fencers. I learned the basics very well because I had many teachers, and I learned a few tricks and moves that a beginner would never even hear of during their first intramural year.

Add to that the first true competition I was in (as the only beginner grade for U. of I.), I fenced against only beginners. Since I won that one, for the next one, I had to bump up to the intermediate round robin. Aaack, I was terrified. Then I realized that the one fencer I had to beat was not really much better than I was, and she was a lefty. Usually this is big challenge because your "target" area on the opponent's body is all mirror-imaged. I watched her in a few bouts before mine and realized that she had the same disadvantage. It was obvious that on her team she had found one or two fencers plus maybe a coach who were lefties, and she had practiced with them rather than developing a mean offense against righties. Fencing against righties was just as much a challenge to her.

Now, I have no idea if some fighting-style issue will come into play in a duel (i.e., Voldie being even more arrogant that we've seen), but I believe the point about the less experienced fighter presenting surprising challenges is a valid one.

Ciao. Barb



vball man - Mar 23, 2004 4:12 pm (#315 of 2971)

I think that the fencing analogy is excellent. I believe that is from a classic essay on fencing. I fenced in college, too. What a neat group, here.

I think that the application is already seen. Vol was surprized by part of DD's attack in the MoM. Since Vol doesn't know what attack to expect, DD (and Harry) has a advantage. I always feel like Harry will do in Vol by forcing him into a position where Vol actually hurts himself. I mean to his own "defeat." I somehow don't think that Harry will "become a murderer just for him." That's just speculation, though.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 23, 2004 4:14 pm (#316 of 2971)

Pride goeth before a fall.

I really think the grave-yard duel said a lot more about Voldemort than is generally recognized.

First of course is that Harry won the battle of wills. Harry forced the beads of light away from his wand and into Voldemort's wand. Don't you buy for a second the notion that Voldemort didn't care about it as much as Harry. He was trying to prove he was still the meanest, baddest, strongest dude on the block. That was the whole point for that night's performance. Any sign of weakness and strong independent DeathEaters like Lucius Malfoy are going to start getting ideas. He can't let that happen. So he would have fought those beads as hard as he could.

Second, Harry saw genuine fear in the eyes of Voldemort when the shadows of his victims were prowling around him. Why? They were dead. They were just shadows. They weren't even ghosts. Why was he afraid of them? Was it because they WERE dead and he fears death? I think not. I don't see Voldemort trembling before Moaning Myrtle, or Sir Nicolas, do you? So what was he scared of?

I think I am going to give this question its own thread.

Marcus



Mad Madame Mim - Mar 23, 2004 5:28 pm (#317 of 2971)

Marcus,

Good points, also Voldemort could have easily gotten into the MoM without being seen or detected and retrieved the prophesy himself, but he didn't. He used Harry and prayed on his weaknesses. It seems that Voldemort is better at manipulating others to do his job rather than doing it himself. Each time Voldemort has gone up against Harry he has lost. Bellatrix could have easily killed Harry at the MoM, but was under orders not too. It almost seems that Voldemort needs Harry to make him seem all powerful.



Prefect Marcus - Mar 23, 2004 8:21 pm (#318 of 2971)

Mim, You are one of my all-time favorite Disney characters. If it wasn't for the minor matter of that 'y' chromosone that I have, I would have taken her. Smile

Anyway, your point is very good. Voldemort's power seems to be strongest at manipulating people. He certainly does have a great deal of raw power, but his true strength seems to be in affecting the minds of others.

Marcus



NYCNomad - Mar 24, 2004 10:35 am (#319 of 2971)

OK, I have a thought that's been bugging me for a while. I don't know if this is the right place to put it, but it does include Harry. Back when James, Sirius, Remus and Peter were at school they all did amazing things, like become Animagi, make the Maurauders map, the 2 way mirrow, ect. They did some amazing things. Now, I'm not saying that Harry is a failure to his fathers memory or anything like that, but is this generation going to do anything like that? Anybody have any thoughts?



Tomoé - Mar 24, 2004 10:50 am (#320 of 2971)

They did polyjuice potion in their second year, that's quite a achievement (Ok, Hermione did, not the whole crew). HRH don't have the magic-object-creator attitude, the Weasley twins are more like the marauders. HRH are more in the save-the-world attitude.



vball man - Mar 24, 2004 10:52 am (#321 of 2971)

James did have the advantage of growing up with Wizard parents. Harry grew up with the Dursleys.



NYCNomad - Mar 24, 2004 11:09 am (#322 of 2971)

Ron grew up with his family and had plenty of exposure with the wizarding world there, and Hermirone seems like she would be trying to think of ways to expand her knowledge. Like I said, they have don't things, but nothing that they can take with them. Like, all the maurauders became animagi, a skill they could use forever. Yes, HRH made potions and are great wizards and witches but... I feel they there will be more along those lines coming up.



vball man - Mar 24, 2004 11:52 am (#323 of 2971)

Well, you're right. Look at the Marauder's map. DD should have made one. Would have saved a lot of trouble in GoF. You'd think if they could make one DD could. Or other way to see around polyjuice potion. Whoops, getting OT.



Mad Madame Mim - Mar 24, 2004 8:42 pm (#324 of 2971)

Thanks Marcus!

She's one of my favorites too.

Well HRH did manage to get the Stone as first years. Harry would not have found the Chamber of Secrets if it was not for Ron's and Hermione's help. Harry manage to learn and preform under pressure a very difficult Patronus. Harry and Hermione managed to rewrite history and save Buckbeak and Sirius. Harry was an underage participant in the triwizard tournament. Harry saw and partook in the rebirth of Lord Voldemort. Harry taught the other to do a Patronus Charm as well as other spell in DA. The trio plus three took on no less than 12 Death Eaters at the MoM.

They may not have made a tangible memento like a map or even became animagi, but they haven't been setting on their bums either. With all of the saving the world business plus keeping their grades up, they really don't have time for anything else!



alexa - Mar 24, 2004 9:21 pm (#325 of 2971)

Hello NYCNomad! Saw your post where you introduced yourself as 'newbie'. Welcome!

The reason why James, Sirius and Petter learnt to become animagi was to accompany Lupin during his transformation. For HRH, there aren't a right situation which sort of 'encourage' or 'push' them to become animagi. I believe MWPP days were much more relaxed than HRH days, and I remembered Sirius complain that he was bored. HRH have more things on their minds than to think of what 'mischief' or 'rules breaking adventures' they could be up to. But I agreed with you that Harry could have learnt to do something 'amazing' in the next two books. Nice thoughts!



Phoenix - Mar 30, 2004 11:20 am (#326 of 2971)

Of course he's going to do something amazing. He's going to leard how to defeat Lord Voldemort. I'm not sure exactly how but I guess it will have something to with the locked door in the DoM.



Catherine - Apr 8, 2004 12:52 pm (#327 of 2971)

This post refers back into this thread about Harry possibly becoming more powerful than Voldemort, and how to defeat Voldemort.

I agree totally that Voldemort's transfer of powers to Harry has helped him, but I don't think that's how Harry will defeat Voldemort. It won't be ability at all. I think it's about choices, which Dumbledore says are more important than abilities. Harry may have to make the choice to sacrifice himself, for example, in order to vanquish Lord Voldemort.

We've seen numerous examples of self-sacrifice in the novels, and it may come to that in the end.



nmnjr - Apr 8, 2004 7:26 pm (#328 of 2971)
Edited Apr 8, 2004 8:28 pm

Brilliant point!

Choices will certainly be the deciding factor in my opinion. But I hope Harry's choice isn't to sacrifice himself. Then there's no chance for more sequels!



Padfoot - Apr 9, 2004 7:40 am (#329 of 2971)

I wonder if Harry will be in any trouble because he used magic outside of school? Yes he was defending himself, but it looks like this is the third time he has violated the law. I can't see him going to another hearing, unless it is completely different from the last one. I also wonder if students get in trouble for trying to use magic, even if nothing happens? I am thinking of the crucio spell Harry tried but didn't work.



Choices - Apr 9, 2004 7:54 am (#330 of 2971)
Edited Apr 9, 2004 8:56 am

nmnjr --- If it means that Harry can go on, I will be more than happy to sacrifice myself. ;-) LOL



Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 9:27 am (#331 of 2971)

Padfoot,

Unless I am mistaken, the rule is no magic outside of the school year. As I understand it, it applies from Platform 9-3/4 to Platform 9-3/4. There is the broader rule of no magic in the presence of muggles, but that wouldn't apply to the MoM attrium.

The only witnesses to the crucio attempt were Harry and Bellatrix. Is Bellatrix going to report it?

I like to think that Harry was so horrified by what he attempted, that he is never going to try that again.



Padfoot - Apr 9, 2004 9:33 am (#332 of 2971)

Ok I see. I guess I was thinking: Here we go again. And no, I doubt Bella is going to complain to the MoM.

I'm not sure that Harry is horrified about what he tried to do. If he had succeeded in the curse, I think it would have startled him enough for him to stop it quickly though.



Madame Librarian - Apr 9, 2004 9:47 am (#333 of 2971)

I don't think Harry will get into any serious trouble for trying to use that curse against Bella, but aside from neither of them saying anything about it, isn't there some mysterious way the MoM always seems to know when Harry has used some illegal form of magic? The floating dessert, the Anglia, Aunt Marge, the Dementors? I don't think it'll pass by without a mention in book 6. In fact, it may serve to create some issue about Harry's true nature or some such controversy.

Ciao. Barb



dobbyiscool - Apr 9, 2004 9:49 am (#334 of 2971)

Who would belive her? I mean, a student casting a spell that most adults arn't able to do?



Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 9:57 am (#335 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Apr 9, 2004 10:58 am

Well, in the case of Harry and Privet Drive, he is the only wizard for miles. It should be fairly simple to sense magic and determine if it is under-age.

In the case of Harry at the MoM and Hermione's use of Lumos at the World Cup, there were spells of all sorts being cast right and left all around them. Trying to pinpoint Harry's feeble attempt at a Crucio spell and/or Hermione's little Lumos spell from all the others would be difficult at best, more likely impossible.

Yes, it might come back to haunt him. We shall see.



Dr Filibuster - Apr 9, 2004 1:49 pm (#336 of 2971)

I'd like to know the consequences of Harry's wand being recorded at the MoM before speculatng on this matter.



Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 2:12 pm (#337 of 2971)

Good point, Doc F. I hadn't thought about that. :-)



Catherine - Apr 9, 2004 4:25 pm (#338 of 2971)

It might be a little bit like being arrested for something minor that got dismissed, but your DNA or fingerprints are on file for later. At least in the American system. Hmmmm...



Choices - Apr 10, 2004 8:12 am (#339 of 2971)

I thought it was allowed for an under age wizard to do magic out of school if it was to save their life??? Surely the kids in the MOM battle were fighting for their lives.



HP Fan - Apr 11, 2004 12:45 pm (#340 of 2971)

It was still term time so that rule wouldn't really count aside from the fact it wouldn't count as they were fighting for their lives - the notices are only given out at the beginning of the summer holidays and possibly the other holidays though it's never been mentioned. Any way I think the ministry have too much on their hands at the moment to bother about their spell work in the ministry battle.



Choices - Apr 11, 2004 3:29 pm (#341 of 2971)

I think the rule applies anytime they are away from Hogwarts - not just over the summer or holidays.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 12, 2004 8:30 am (#342 of 2971)

I think that the rule applies if they are away from the wizarding world. They were all in the MoM, which is very much a part of the WW. So, I don't think they will do anything to the students who did magic there. Besides...like some many others said, they were doing magic to save their lives. They didn't do any sort of magic to get to the MoM, just when they were there.



vball man - Apr 12, 2004 9:44 am (#343 of 2971)

I suspect that it is a law that is not always aggressively prosecuted.

I don't think that anyone will say anything.



FCBarca - Apr 12, 2004 10:24 am (#344 of 2971)
Edited Apr 12, 2004 11:26 am

Detail Seeker, you said: (way back. Sorry.)

FC Barca, you - among other arguments - doubt, that Harry has the will to kill Voldemort, the will to get Avada Kedavra (AK)working. You, if I understand that right - think, that Harry cannot want to kill because of the love in him.

No, I was saying that Voldemort's will power may be equal or stronger than Harry's, and the reason Harry won the bead fight was because the will to survive is stronger than the will to kill. That's what I believe, anyway. Basically, I was saying that Harry's will power may not necessarily be better than Voldemort's; Harry's will power was more in that instance.



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 12, 2004 10:38 am (#345 of 2971)

Actually, cannon would have it the other way around. In OoP, Harry wanted to die when Voldemort possessed him in the MoM. This willingness and Harry's comfort in knowing he would see Sirius again is what made Voldemort let go of Harry. Voldemort has tried to make himself immortal because he is afraid of dying. Harry accepts his mortality. This is what makes them different. Harry would sacrifice himself to save his friends and he would die for a cause. Voldemort would do or kill anything to survive.



Madame Librarian - Apr 12, 2004 11:24 am (#346 of 2971)

MMM-- Voldemort has tried to make himself immortal because he is afraid of dying. Harry accepts his mortality.

Well said, Mim! A very profound observation. It may be the crux of Harry's eventual victory, along with the love factor.

Ciao. Barb



Detail Seeker - Apr 12, 2004 12:11 pm (#347 of 2971)

#VALUE!

But - in a different situation - the will to survive may necessarily include the necessity to kill. And even if Harry accepts his mortality ( as obeserved above), he may have the will to let others survive together with ther hatred against the one, who killed those he loved. And that mixture may become hard to overcome, though Voldemorts fear of death will be quite powerful, too.



FCBarca - Apr 12, 2004 12:16 pm (#348 of 2971)

A good point, MMM, but I was specifically talking about Harry's willingness to survive over Voldemort's willingness to kill.

Another point I'd like to make: I believe it's true that Harry has an advantage over Voldemort in the sense that Harry would be more willing to die than Voldemort. But Voldemort also has an advantage over Harry: the willingness to kill. Harry would have more problems killing Voldemort than Voldemort would have killing Harry, and although Harry will conquer Voldemort, this is a problem.

Voldemort is only half-human now, and that could play a part in the series.



Alexander Nevermind - Apr 12, 2004 1:21 pm (#349 of 2971)

That's it then. MMM is on to somethning. It may end as simply as it began, if you can call it simple. In PS/SS Lily jumps between Voldemort and Harry in an effort to save her son. Voldemort kills her and her sacrifice gives Harry the protection needed to survive Voldemort's AK curse. Imagine, in the end Harry chooses to come between one of the friends, whom he cares deeply for, and Voldemort when Voldemort is about about to AK that person, during the last battle perhaps. Voldemort lets fly the curse and it strikes Harry. However the curse again bounces off Harry and this time it destroys Voldemort. The reason being that Harry chose to sacrifice himself to save that friend. I believe that this fact, coupled with the protection that his mother gave him when she saved him from Voldemort the first time, will allow Harry to surivive Voldemort's killing curse a second time. He'll live becuse of the love that he has for the person that Voldemort intended to kill. Voldemort, on the other hand will be completely destroyed because of that power that Harry has that Voldemort knows nothing of (love) and because of what was foretold in the prophecy.



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 12, 2004 1:45 pm (#350 of 2971)

The half that makes Voldemort human came from Harry and Voldemort's muggle father. Voldemort knows that he now has the same protection that Harry has running through their veins.

FCBarca, you are right Voldemort has the willingness to kill. his DE are not members of his cause, or pawns even, but tools. Pieces of property that can be used to get his job done. He has no respect or compassion for his property. He uses people.

Harry has friends, respect of people he hardly knows that would die for him and they would kill those that might harm him. They are loyal. Harry has a child-like awe for these people, they would risk their lives for me. If anything happen to an order member he would feel responsible. Harry doesn't have to kill anyone but Voldemort because others are there to do it for him.

Harry is suppose to be the day to Voldemort's night. For Voldemort to overcome Harry, Harry would have to lose hope. Lose that light of love and let the shadows of darkness take him.



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Choices - Apr 12, 2004 6:05 pm (#351 of 2971)

Alexander Nevermind - I like what you said and can see that scenerio playing out very easily. Harry would definitely step in to save a friend - Ron or Hermione especially - take the AK and bounce it right back at Voldemort, killing him and ending the battle. That would make a great ending because Harry wouldn't exactly kill Voldemort, Voldemort's own evil would come back to kill him, but Harry would be victorious. I like it!!



haymoni - Apr 13, 2004 4:14 am (#352 of 2971)

What if Voldy tries to kill Petunia as the last blood connection to Lily and Harry jumps in to save HER??!!



mollis - Apr 13, 2004 5:35 am (#353 of 2971)

Not likely.



Julia. - Apr 13, 2004 8:22 am (#354 of 2971)

I don't think so Haymoni. Lily sacraficed herself to save Harry, not Petunia.



haymoni - Apr 13, 2004 8:28 am (#355 of 2971)

I was thinking about the protection that Petunia now gives Harry. Dumbledore says that by agreeing to take Harry in Petunia sealed the protection he had set up.

If Voldy kills Petunia, Harry may not be protected any longer. Harry may save Petunia to save himself.



Anna Katarina - Apr 13, 2004 8:56 am (#356 of 2971)
Edited Apr 13, 2004 9:58 am

I'm assuming that the protection works both ways, as long as Harry is protected so is Petunia, and maybe Dudders too (being of Lily's bloodline). Perhaps this might be the reason for Petunia putting her foot down.

Edit: Come to think of it... Didn't someone else say this before? Didn't mean to steal a good idea.



Marie E. - Apr 13, 2004 10:57 am (#357 of 2971)

Does Voldemort know the extent of Harry's protection? I mean, does he know that Petunia is now the "guardian" of it? If this is the case, the Petunia could be in some real danger now that Voldy has been outed.

PS. Hi, Anna Katarina, long time no see!



HP Fan - Apr 13, 2004 11:21 am (#358 of 2971)

Mad Madame Mim --> "Harry is suppose to be the day to Voldemort's night. For Voldemort to overcome Harry, Harry would have to lose hope. Lose that light of love and let the shadows of darkness take him."

I love this line in your post it's so poetic. I like the idea of Harry as day to Voldemort's night it hits exactly on the crux of the matters. Harry has many similarities to Voldemort [partly due to the curse that failed] yet he is completely different to him [power the Dark Lord knows not, his capacity to love etc].

I think Petunia and her family are in danger to some extent especially in view of DD saying that he sent the Howler because he thought "the dementor attack may have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son." [not exact haven't got the book with me - still haven't broken bad habit of posting without books close by]. The bond of blood DD talks about might work both ways offering them some general protection. While Lilly's sacrifice gives Harry a specific kind of protection.

Alex Nevermind - I agree with Choices your version of the ending is good - Harry doesn't have to become the murderer - Voldemort does himself in.

I know someone mentioned about Voldemort having the protection from Harry - I can't help feeling that that will be Voldemort's undoing - I just get the feeling that as the protection was based on love - a mother making the ultimate sacrifice for her child - Voldemort being unable to love or understand love will not get the benefits of it. In fact I can;t help thinking it will backfire spectacularly on him at some point.

Just my two knuts worth.



Anna Katarina - Apr 13, 2004 8:25 pm (#359 of 2971)
Edited Apr 13, 2004 9:26 pm

About Voldemort knowing where Harry is 'hidden'. GoF, chapter "The Death Eaters" (at the end of it) 'But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relation's care. Not even I can touch him there..." Voldemort to the Death Eaters. Hmm.. He said that AFTER he had been restored. Does that mean that Voldemort can touch Harry but not when he is at 'the Muggle's place'?

(Hi Marie! I've been around, lurking as usual. It is nice to talk again.)



Rich - Apr 13, 2004 10:23 pm (#360 of 2971)

Isn't it something like Harry has to spend a certain amount of time at Privet Drive each year. Enough so he can call it "home", then the charm will protect him.

Voldemort says, "...not even I can touch him there...", which leads me to think that while Harry is at Privet Drive absolutely no one with the intention of hurting Harry can do any harm to him.

This is further backed up by an incident at the very beginning of OotP. Harry is in the garden listening to the news when he hears Mundungus disapparate (though he doesn't know what it is) so he quickly jumps up, hitting his head on the open window. This really hurts him. Uncle Vernon puts his hands around Harry's neck when he sees the wand and tries to strangle him. When the pain in Harry's head is at its worst, "...Uncle Vernon yelped and let go of Harry as if he had received an electric shock..."

I don't know for sure what that's all about - If it's explained in the book and I missed it, fill me in. But without knowing 100% what caused Vernon to yelp and let go of Harry - as though Vernon had been stopped by some third party - I tend to think it was the charm kicking in.



boop - Apr 14, 2004 2:50 am (#361 of 2971)

Rich, you could be right about the charm, or it could have just been Harry. I guess we will not really know for sure.



Ladybug220 - Apr 15, 2004 8:36 am (#362 of 2971)

Well, it could have been emotional magic on Harry's part that caused Vernon to let go. We know that he did some before getting the Hogwarts letter.



Mrs. Sirius - Apr 15, 2004 9:02 pm (#363 of 2971)

It think it's the same thing that made it impossible for Quirrel to hold on to him. And although I cannot remember just now, I think there is another time in one of the books where Harry's body gives of some type of a charge.



S.E. Jones - Apr 18, 2004 6:59 pm (#364 of 2971)
Edited Apr 18, 2004 8:03 pm

Madam Mim: This is what makes them different. Harry would sacrifice himself to save his friends and he would die for a cause. Voldemort would do or kill anything to survive.

FCBarca: I believe it's true that Harry has an advantage over Voldemort in the sense that Harry would be more willing to die than Voldemort. But Voldemort also has an advantage over Harry: the willingness to kill. Harry would have more problems killing Voldemort than Voldemort would have killing Harry, and although Harry will conquer Voldemort, this is a problem.

I agree that Harry might well indeed kill Voldemort via a sacrifice, but I don't know if it will kill him. In PS, he nearly sacrifices himself, willingly, by holding onto Quirrell to prevent him from getting the stone; Dumbledore even comments that he shows up just in time to pull Harry off before the strain kills the boy and it does kill Quirrell, so I could see something like this happening with Voldemort, though exactly what I'm not sure.

As for Harry not being willing to kill, I disagree. For those who are unfamiliar with the story of Sergeant Alvin C. York during World War I, he was an American pacifist who was drafted into the army. He tried to get an excemption as a conscientious objector on the basis that killing in war violated the teachings of his faith but was denied. Later in battle, he single handedly took an entire German machine gun nest (understatement, he took 132 prisoners). There is a quote from a movie made about his life (1941) that, paraphrased, said, when he saw his fellow men, his friends, dying around him because of the machine guns, he figured the guns had to be stopped and so he took it upon himself to do so to keep more of his friends from dying. I see Harry falling into the same category as York, he won't want to kill but he may be willing to stain his own hands rather than see his friends hurt or worse.



Rich - Apr 19, 2004 12:58 am (#365 of 2971)

Which is part of the reason why Harry is in Gryffindor and not Slytherin, he puts/will put others well-being ahead of his.



Mare - Apr 19, 2004 2:32 am (#366 of 2971)

Sounds more like a Hufflepuff trait to me

I see Harry falling into the same category as York, he won't want to kill but he may be willing to stain his own hands rather than see his friends hurt or worse.
Or maybe he would kill because he doesn't want his friends to do it. (think the shrieking shack scene, stopping Remus and Sirius). Harry always had all the crap thrown over him, he might as well think. "I'll do it and be done with it, and the rest can have a notmal life."
Right now he's not as such a point, he is kicking against everything the prophecy holds for him. He wants to be a "normal boy", but in the pondering after Sirius death, he might come to such a conclusion.



FCBarca - Apr 19, 2004 4:14 am (#367 of 2971)
Edited Apr 19, 2004 5:16 am

As for Harry not being willing to kill, I disagree.

S.E. Jones, if that was a reply to my post, then I'm afraid you've misread it. I said he would have more problems with killing Voldemort, than Voldemort would killing Harry, not that he couldn't. I believe he would have problems killing Voldemort, but not that he couldn't do it. He said himself that he "can't possess people or-or kill them-". The Lost Prophecy.

He would overcome the problem, there's no doubt about that, but I believe the problem does exist.



Iverson Godfrey - Apr 20, 2004 4:11 pm (#368 of 2971)

But in The Lost Prophecy, Harry was only 15. It isn't like they are teaching kids how to kill one another at school. Up to that point he never knew that it would be his destiny to kill or be killed. Now that he is a little wiser to the whole situation, I think he might start learning and concentrating a little more on his offense, rather that his defense exclusively.



FCBarca - Apr 21, 2004 2:40 am (#369 of 2971)

But Iverson, he is a person who would rather not kill. So I don't think it matters how old he is, he will never want to kill someone. He will always hesitate, in my opinion.

Also, Iverson, what do you mean by concentrating on his offence rather than defence? I presume you mean he should learn spells for attack rather than defence, but I think the majority of spells are for attack anyway, apart from Shield spells. Or do you mean the way he uses the spells? Like using them with an attack mind.



S.E. Jones - Apr 21, 2004 8:37 am (#370 of 2971)

FCBarca: S.E. Jones, if that was a reply to my post, then I'm afraid you've misread it. I said he would have more problems with killing Voldemort, than Voldemort would killing Harry, not that he couldn't.

Actually, I didn't misread it, I know what you meant -- that he would hesitate, would be, as I said, unwilling. However, I think this unwillingness would vanish if he decided, i.e. made a conscious decision before the fact, that he had to kill Voldemort to prevent harm from befalling his friends or to prevent them from, as Mare pointed out, becoming killers themselves. I think he will end up with a well laid out plan of study and preparation with the intent of setting himself up for this task. I hope I made more sense there and cleared up any confusion....

I agree that his choice of spells and his intent in using them will change. Most of the spells we see him use are more defensive, either to disarm, to shield, or to distract and allow for a getaway, but I think he will change his strategy and spell choice to allow for a more direct means of attack.



Padfoot - Apr 21, 2004 9:08 am (#371 of 2971)

Iverson Godfrey, do you think Harry will seek out old Voldy now in order to attack him? I'm not sure Harry is ready for that. I have pictured the final battle in which Voldemort seeks Harry out, like he has done previously.



FCBarca - Apr 21, 2004 9:21 am (#372 of 2971)
Edited Apr 21, 2004 10:22 am

S.E. Jones, you said: (I'm putting the bold in) "I think this unwillingness would vanish...

So you agree Harry would be unwilling to kill Voldemort then? Because more point was, overall, Harry would have more problems killing Voldemort than Voldemort would have killing Harry; circumstances weren't a part of my opinion. I guess I should have put that in, to avoid confusion. Sorry.



Iverson Godfrey - Apr 21, 2004 3:44 pm (#373 of 2971)

I don't think Harry should strike out on his own and pick a fight with Voldemort, or anyone for that matter. If he did that would show a continuing lack of maturity and critical thinking skills. I think Harry will grow from the adversity he has been facing and we will see an older, more mature, more focused Harry very soon, but probably not until a while into the next book.

All of the recent tragedy in his life has been a result of circumstances Harry has found himself in because of careful strategic planning by the enemy. Harry has been a victim, but luckily he does have a knack for defending himself.

I think if Harry is going to switch from being a constant victim, always on the defensive, they (DD, Harry, the Order) need to think more proactively- maybe catch the other team off guard for a change.

So, by offense, I simply meant I think they should start working on their own plan. I don't think Harry wants to be a killer, but I don't think he will think twice if he has to attack Bellatrix or Voldemort-



Choices - Apr 21, 2004 5:55 pm (#374 of 2971)

I think everything that has happened to Harry and is happening now, serves to enlighten him as to the ways of the dark side. He has to realize that they are not playing - people can and will die in this conflict. I think the more he comes to recognize that this is a life and death struggle, the more he will be prepared to kill if need be. He will know that if he hesitates, someone near and dear to him may suffer the consequences.....it is kill or be killed from now on.



Bittersweet - Apr 22, 2004 5:55 pm (#375 of 2971)

Choices: I agree completely with what you've said. Now that I look back on it, I think that the moment that Harry fully realizes that he must kill or be killed is the true coming of age moment in the books (so far, at least). Harry can never really be a child again now that he has this to face. In some ways, it makes him a tragic character, which he has been all along, I guess.



vball man - Apr 22, 2004 6:28 pm (#376 of 2971)

Coming of Age would be an interesting discussion. Here's one from OoP just after the DE's "escape" from Azkaban:

There they all were, talking about homework and Quidditch and who knew what other rubbish, when outside these walls ten more Death Eaters had swollen Voldemort's ranks.



A-is-for-Amy - Apr 22, 2004 9:10 pm (#377 of 2971)

I've just caught up with a 160-odd posts, and I haven't noticed, in the theories on how Harry will defeat Voldemort, anyone mention Wormtail's life debt to Harry. Do you think this will come into play during the final confrontation?

One other thing, from WAY back, there was a brief discussion of Harry's genealogy and whether or not he was the heir of Gryffindor or even Slytherin. I found it interesting in OotP, that when they were discussing and looking at the Black family tree, they were interrupted, and only focused on a small branch. Later, at Christmastime, the family tree is blocked from view by the Christmas tree. I remember thinking at the time that the reason behind that was that JKR was deliberately hiding the family tree from the readers. Why? It made me wonder how closely related Harry and Sirius were. Were Sirius and James closely related? James and Snape? They all have black hair and I've gotten the distinct impression that Snape is a pureblood, and of course all pureblood families tend to be realted in one way or another.

Not sure where I'm going with this - in circles it seems - anyone have any thought on this?



Rich - Apr 22, 2004 10:36 pm (#378 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 11:37 pm

I think Wormtail's role regarding the prophecy, the life debt and pretty much the next two books has been discussed on the Pettigrew thread. There used to be a thread "Wormtail's life debt" or whatever (I started it so I probably should know, but I don't), I'm not sure where that got to.

It's very possible that Sirius and James were related. James being a pureblood (right?) and Sirius as well. Doesn't Sirius say something like all pureblood families are pretty closely related so there's not many other purebloods that you can marry that you're not related to...Inbred!



S.E. Jones - Apr 22, 2004 11:37 pm (#379 of 2971)

Another "coming of age moment" for Harry in OotP: (upon finding out Cho was going out with someone else) Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt at all. Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him. So much of what he had wanted before Sirius's death felt that way these days.... The week that had elapsed since he had last seen Sirius seemed to have lasted much, much longer: It stretched across two universes, the one with Sirius in it, and the one without. (OotP, ch38, pg865-866, US)

Harry has clearly stepped over the threshold into adulthood at the end of OotP and is no longer a child. We even see Harry making the distinction for us here between childhood (the life with Sirius, trying to impress girls, wanting all those other things) and adulthood (the life without Sirius, with the Prophecy, the life that includes or ends with murder).



mononoke - Apr 23, 2004 6:21 am (#380 of 2971)

Oh no...will Harry consider Quidditch is something belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him.



rambkowalczyk - Apr 26, 2004 12:03 pm (#381 of 2971)

I find it a stretch to think Harry will give up Quidditch as it was the first wizardly thing he was good at. Maybe in his 6th year he will lose to Malfoy and have to learn to accept defeat with good grace even though he will have to fight every instinct to do so.



A-is-for-Amy - Apr 26, 2004 4:30 pm (#382 of 2971)

I'm also not going to give up my hope that Harry will lead (or at least participate in) and aerial attack at some point during the coming war... Quidditch is just practice for that, so he can't give it up!



S.E. Jones - Apr 26, 2004 8:26 pm (#383 of 2971)

Here's a quote from Fawkes Egg on the Sirius thread:

Fawkes Egg (#418): Harry was not really going to listen to people like Hermione ("Don't you think you have a bit of a saving-people thing?") until he had the consequences demonstrated to him.

My question is, now that Harry knows what kind of consequences can come about due to rash actions and he's got the guilt of Sirius's death sitting on his shoulders, do you think we'll see an extra careful Harry in Book 6, one who will forego taking risks to help on the odd chance that he gets someone hurt (i.e. will he over think everything)? Will this lead to someone else (someone close to him) getting hurt inadvertently?



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 26, 2004 8:29 pm (#384 of 2971)

I think it will be a real struggle for balance, don't you S.E.?



Verbina - Apr 26, 2004 8:33 pm (#385 of 2971)

I think that will be the painful choice Harry will have to make. Should he act or should he wait? He will have to tread the thin line between them and make up his mind without taking too long. He has always done well thinking on his feet in the past but this may hamper him a bit, causing a new set of problems for him to deal with.



A-is-for-Amy - Apr 27, 2004 7:22 am (#386 of 2971)

I think that now that Harry knows that Voldemort can use the link between him , that he is going to end up second guessing everything he does, wondering if they are really his own thoughts and feelings or if it is something that is being subtly fed to him by Voldemort. JKR has said that the next book will be Harry's shortest ever stay at Privet Drive, and I'm wondering if it is because his occlumency training has to be stepped up dramatically.



Madame Librarian - Apr 27, 2004 7:50 am (#387 of 2971)
Edited Apr 27, 2004 8:51 am

Adding to Sarah's thought, will Harry isolate himself from his friends socially and emotionally to keep them safer? Maybe he'll think that if the DEs see him at odds with his friends, they'll not be potential victims or hostages used to get at Harry.

Ciao. Barb



Verbina - Apr 27, 2004 8:21 am (#388 of 2971)

Plus with the Prophecy, Harry may begin to develop an idea that to associate with him is dangerous. His parents died because of him essentially as did Cedric and Sirius. He may begin to think, now knowing the prophecy, that it would be safer for all he cares about to not be around them. That is not to say he will act on the feeling but he may begin to think about it in those terms and by the end of the book he may begin to take actions.



Lagniappe - Apr 27, 2004 9:54 am (#389 of 2971)

Those are interesting thoughts. We've seen him attempt a separation once before (at Grimmauld Place after Mr. Weasley's attack), and now that he knows the prophecy I could definitely see him thinking along those lines again.



DJ Evans - Apr 27, 2004 10:50 am (#390 of 2971)

Or, also I can see Harry becoming closer to Neville now. As with the wording of the Prophecy and having it either talking about Harry or Neville--I think Harry will take Neville more under his wing and protect Neville more. He might feel like it will come down to basically himself and Neville having to "deal" with LV.

Later days, Deb



septentrion - Apr 28, 2004 7:31 am (#391 of 2971)

Maybe Harry will try and separate from his friends (which I don't really believe) but he won't be able to do it without explanations. They followed him in the MoM, nearly died, though they knew they could have been lured there. Their bounds are stronger than ever, he can't just tell them : "you mustn't stand with me anymore". And JKR wrote in her last chat that Harry will tell about the prophecy to his nearest and dearest. She didn't tell who are (is ?) his nearest and dearest but I bet they're Ron and Hermione. And these two won't accept to separate from Harry.



Tomoé - Apr 28, 2004 8:35 am (#392 of 2971)

Maybe Ron and Hermione will get closer together, and will want to spend some time all by themselves ...



Verbina - Apr 28, 2004 8:51 am (#393 of 2971)

Which, if it happens, would make Harry a third wheel. I can see him spending more time with Neville. He has always sort of had Neville under his wing without even realizing it and I think that after meeting Neville's gran and seeing his parents, Harry will do more along those lines. He and Neville are more alike than anyone realizes except for themselves. But...I hesitate to think that he would tell Neville about the prophecy. Harry would tell Ron and Hermione. Then there is also Ginny and Luna. I am not sure if he would tell them about the prophecy but I feel we will see him talking to them a bit more. Ginny seems genuinly concerned for Harry at times and Luna was the only one that Harry was willing to talk to about Sirius's death.

Of course, it is just speculation.



Devika - Apr 28, 2004 9:31 am (#394 of 2971)

Amy raised the point about Harry second guessing his own thoughts. But I think one ca even look at this from the opposite point of view. Voldemort will now realise that Harry will know when he will try to penetrate his mind, so I don't think we'll see too much of this dilemma.

While we may see Harry getting a little more aloof and serious, I think in an ironical sort of way he will get closer to his closest friends - Ron and Hermione, and distant from his everyday acquaintances. There is of course the chance that Harry will now develop a strong support base in the DA for any future trials, but emotionally he will be alienating himself from his friends except Ron and Hermione. It does seem however that Neville and Luna will be able to penetrate this 'inner cordon' of his.



Tomoé - Apr 28, 2004 10:52 am (#395 of 2971)

I think Neville will become one of Harry's nearest and dearest in book 6. Wasn't a line in PS telling there are things in life that you can't go through without becoming friends and fighting a Troll in a toilette was one of those things? I bet fighting DE when you outnumbered 1 to 2 is one of those things as well.

(Can anyone get the quote, my PS is still away T_T)



Julia. - Apr 28, 2004 11:12 am (#396 of 2971)
Edited Apr 28, 2004 12:22 pm

Sure Tomoe. Here it is. "From that moment on, Hermione Granger became thier friend. There are some things you can't share withou ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountan troll is one of them." (PS/SS Ch. 10, pg 179 US)



Verbina - Apr 28, 2004 11:13 am (#397 of 2971)
Edited Apr 28, 2004 12:14 pm

There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot moutnain troll is one of them. Book 1, Chapter 10 "Halloween" last line of the chapter.

Edit - Ooops! Cross posted there!!! ^_^



Tomoé - Apr 28, 2004 12:04 pm (#398 of 2971)

Thanks Julia and Verbina. ^_^

Plus, the six of them were in the hospital wing at the end of OoP, to read the newspaper (and Luna was reading the Quibbler ^_^ ). There's no mention of Luna in their train compartment as they returned home, but Neville was definitely there.



vball man - Apr 28, 2004 2:58 pm (#399 of 2971)

...I think one ca even look at this from the opposite point of view. Voldemort will now realise that Harry will know when he will try to penetrate his mind. - Devika

Interesting. Harry drove Vol out of Harry's body by thinking of how he loved Sirius. Maybe Harry could drive Vol out of Vol's body by a similar method.



Verbina - Apr 28, 2004 7:25 pm (#400 of 2971)

And that would make him like he was in book one though, right? Not exactly destruction but...once in that state...how easy would he be to destroy?



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Fawkes Egg - Apr 29, 2004 12:46 pm (#401 of 2971)

SE Jones: - Thank you - I think that's the first time I've been quoted on here! (#383)

Tomoé: I really hope to see Neville playing a bigger role too, and after MoM I think he's ready for it. He's also lowered an important barrier between himself and the others now that they know about his parents. He and Harry are bound to feel a stronger bond now - they've both lost their parents (who knows if the Longbottoms will ever recover?).

I think at the end of OotP there were a lot of clues towards Harry starting to feel less lonely, even though Sirius was gone. The Order rallying round at King's Cross, the chats with Luna...I think perhaps Harry might start relying on his friends more now, instead of being independent beyond reason (e.g., keeping Umbridge's horrible quill quiet). This might help him take a more considered approach to anything LV and co. throw his way.



Weeny Owl - Apr 29, 2004 1:16 pm (#402 of 2971)

I hope Harry gets over his upbringing about not asking questions and starts to interrogate practically everyone. He needs so much information (as do we) that has been withheld.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 29, 2004 1:18 pm (#403 of 2971)
Edited Apr 29, 2004 2:18 pm

Hey, Weeny Owl, I like that idea. It should work except the person Harry really needs to interrogate is JKR and she's not talking! : )



Fawkes Egg - Apr 29, 2004 1:35 pm (#404 of 2971)

LOL LupinisLupin! I like your screen name, by the way.

Harry seems to have made a start with getting slowly over the Dursleys' "don't ask questions" drill in OotP: constantly checking the news, wanting to know more from the Order at when he first arrives in Grimmauld Place. Granted, he didn't go about this in quite the right way when he yelled at Ron and Hermione, but I think he will start to ask more and more questions now.



Peregrine - Apr 29, 2004 7:46 pm (#405 of 2971)

Out of the three others at the MOM that night for Harry to become closer to, I would have to pick Ginny over Neville and Luna. Not in a shippy way, but Ginny is the only other person in the world (that we know of) who knows what it's like to have Voldemort inside their head. And I can see Harry and Ginny having sort of the same conversation he and Luna had. She cared about Sirius enough to go to the MOM--in fact, her argument for going to the MOM was because of Sirius while Neville and Luna's were because they were in the DA together. And Ginny had even spent more time with Sirius than Harry had (all those days in #12 before Harry arrived). She knew Sirius just as well as Hermione and Ron and she's got the Voldemort connection going for her too.



S.E. Jones - Apr 29, 2004 10:53 pm (#406 of 2971)

Fawkes Egg: I think at the end of OotP there were a lot of clues towards Harry starting to feel less lonely, even though Sirius was gone.

I didn't see the end of OotP as Harry starting to feel less lonely but more as his friends very purposeful attempt to show him that he is definately not alone. I think they will go well out of their way to gather around him more than ever now. I'm afraid, though, that we'll see a Harry who's still alone despite being in a crowd of loved ones, at least for part of the next book.

P.S. Gee, Fawkes Egg, quoted twice in one thread!....



Rich - Apr 30, 2004 2:47 am (#407 of 2971)

I think Neville will have a lot more confidence in the next books. He won't take "stuff" from Malfoy etc. and he'll come to the aide of HRH and whoever else Malfoy has a go at.

This in turn will mean that people should begin to respect Neville more. I'm not saying that Harry doesn't respect Neville, because he does. But after seeing the situation that Neville's parents are in, Harry should realise that apart from his Gran (and relatives that we've heard a tiny bit about) Neville is also pretty alone in the world. This might be the start of a pretty deep relationship.



Verbina - Apr 30, 2004 7:15 am (#408 of 2971)

I agree rich. Harry and Neville are so alike and I think that is why Harry ahs alwasy treated Neville fairly. And it is obvious from what Neville's gran says that he thinks a great deal of Ron and Hermione but especially Harry. (She knew who they were with very little said and mentioned that Neville talked about them.) But I don't think Harry will tell Neville about the prophecy.



I show not your face but your hearts desire - Apr 30, 2004 9:22 am (#409 of 2971)

Hello. First post Smile (and last if you're all nasty :-P) I know this might be on the wrong post, but i was re-reading CS last night and noticed something for the first time.

Chapter 4: "At Flourish and Blotts" (P46 - British version) Harry's just got out of of Knockturn Alley and found the Weasleys.

Where did you come out? Ron asked. "Knockturn Alley," said Hagrid grimly. "Brilliant!" said Fred and George together. "We've never been allowed in," said Ron enviously.

I know Ron might mean he hasn't been allowed in by his parents, but i wondered if it might mean more, like you have to have some evil in you to be allowed to enter, any thoughts?

PS - just thought, does this mean something about Hagrid as well?



Fawkes Egg - Apr 30, 2004 10:54 am (#410 of 2971)

LOL SE Jones!

I don't expect Harry to suddenly become markedly more open, but I think a start has been made. It could be a slow change though, I agree.

Interesting point, Heart's Desire. I think it might just mean that Ron's parents won't let him in, but Hagrid does seem to have access to places that others don't - like the Forbidden Forest. I don't think it means he's evil, just that he can hold his own among some of the murkier denizens of the WW. And what does it say about Harry getting to Knockturn Alley, of all places, by accident?



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 30, 2004 3:07 pm (#411 of 2971)
Edited Apr 30, 2004 4:08 pm

Well, Harry does have a bit of "evil" in him since Vold gave him some of his powers when he gave him that scar. And for Hagrid.....aren't giants considered "evil" (killing their own kind, ect...). He in fact is part giant. Maybe the wizarding side of him has more power over his giant heritage.



S.E. Jones - Apr 30, 2004 4:15 pm (#412 of 2971)

Further discussions on Hagrid's heritage and what the passage possibly means concerning him would probably best be continued on the Hagrid thread.



Fawkes Egg - Apr 30, 2004 5:40 pm (#413 of 2971)

Well I'll take the "Harry" aspect of the above thoughts. Is having some of Voldemort's powers (Parseltongue could be just one!) going to allow Harry to go places where more ordinary wizards can't - unless of course they're Dark wizards? I think this ability to handle the Dark could be as much the key to Harry defeating the DL as forces like love/Lily's protection.

And on that latter subject: Harry thought he saw a "gleam" of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes when he told him about Voldemort being able to touch him following the graveyard party in GoF. Perhaps, now that LV has some of Harry's blood (in which lay Lily's protection), he's become a little more "humanized" - though he doesn't know it yet, and he'll still be doing all sorts of evil, awful things. That could make him more vulnerable to being killed or otherwise defeated by Harry. Kind of analogous to the life-debt owed Harry by Wormtail.

Just some random thoughts for a Friday evening! Surprised)



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 30, 2004 7:05 pm (#414 of 2971)

I know this is completely off topic, but there is this handmade Harry Potter bag with the Gryffindor crest being sold on ebay by bags_by_april.

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how do I make a hot link?



Verbina - Apr 30, 2004 9:15 pm (#415 of 2971)

Oh yes Fawkes Egg. One thing that was said about Voldie that sort of leads to that is in Book 1. When Hagrid is talking to Harry about Voldie killing his parents. He said that he didn't think Voldie was gone because there wasn't enough human in him to die. And we do know that Voldie conducted "experiments" on himself trying to hold off the possibility of death. After enough of them he would hardly be human anymore. But now with Harry's blood running in his veins, Moldy Voldy is now a tiny bit human and is capable of truly dying.



night41 - May 1, 2004 11:49 am (#416 of 2971)

You know what would be a strange twist to Book 6, but personally I don't it would happen, that after Harry finally tells his friends about the prophesy Neville begins to think that Lord Voldemort made a mistake and then believes that he is the one that can destroy Voldemort not Harry. Then there maybe a power struggle between Harry and Neville. I really don't see this happening, but I do think it is an interesting idea.



Verbina - May 1, 2004 1:39 pm (#417 of 2971)

That could happen though I doubt it. But it would make for a very interesting twist as you said.

Either that or Neville will realize it just about was him that had Harry's life and he becomes even more dedicated to helping Harry.



haymoni - May 1, 2004 2:41 pm (#418 of 2971)

I could see Neville thinking that it COULD have been him and going out to get Voldemort himself - not as a competitor with Harry but thinking, with his new-found confidence, that he could have been "The Chosen One" and that he could save Harry by killing Voldemort.



Madame Librarian - May 1, 2004 5:30 pm (#419 of 2971)
Edited May 1, 2004 6:32 pm

Yes, haymoni. This could lead to a tragic mistake on Neville's part: he dashes off to deal with Voldie thinking that it wasn't Harry, but him all along. The poor boy takes this brave and rash action on his own, trying not to involve anyone else, but, of course, he's in terrible danger and the Order and the DA (if it's still around) have to attempt a save. All kinds of awful ramifications are possible. But I do see Neville as being this kind of sacrificing kid.

Then, we have Harry feeling all guilty and miserable to the extreme because he was the one who let slip about Neville being the other possible chosen one.

Ciao. Barb



haymoni - May 1, 2004 5:41 pm (#420 of 2971)

The innocent are the first to die. Neville has to make it to the end of the series. I don't think I could take it.

Harry & Neville seemed to be such opposites of each other in SS/PS. Now they have been moved closer together by experience and by the prophesy.

Just like the troll-bashing brought the Trio together, I think the DOM battle will bring Harry & Neville together.



Neville Longbottom - May 2, 2004 9:20 am (#421 of 2971)

I could see Neville thinking that it COULD have been him and going out to get Voldemort himself

I agree that this is possible. As is that Neville decided to use himself as a bait for Voldemort, so that Harry can finish him off.



Verbina - May 2, 2004 11:30 am (#422 of 2971)

I don't think Neville would be bait for Voldemort. He would, however, be excellent bait for Lestrange. She seemed to really like the idea of torturing Neville like she did his parents.



S.E. Jones - May 2, 2004 1:32 pm (#423 of 2971)
Edited May 2, 2004 2:33 pm

Let's move the Neville discussion to the Neville thread.

Back to Harry. We've brought up the idea of Harry feeling isolated from his friends because of the prophecy and his guild over Sirius's death, the possible repercussions on his friends, and the possibility of his maturing with the added responsibility of having a younger brother, i.e. Mark Evans, to look after and mentor. How does everyone actually see Harry at the beginning of Book 6 though? How will he have settled into Privet Drive after the show of support on the station platform and the with the weight of the prophecy and Sirius's death on his shoulders? Any thoughts?



The giant squid - May 3, 2004 12:10 am (#424 of 2971)

I think he'll stand up for himself with the Dursleys more in book 6. We've seen already in GoF & OotP that he's putting up more of a fight when they try to beat him down. Now that he knows for a fact that they can't throw him out, I think he'll be less likely to cave when Vernon starts ranting. I also think we'll see a bit of a change in Dudley with regards to Harry due to the Dementor encounter, but that may be fodder for another thread.

--Mike



rambkowalczyk - May 3, 2004 4:53 am (#425 of 2971)

Harry has been standing up to the Dursleys since POA. He was defending his parents reputation to Aunt Marge. What he needs to do is do it more effectively. Although it didn't work he did try to negotiate getting Vernon to sign his permission slip to Hogsmeade. He needs to find the balance between getting what he wants/needs and also showing respect to his elders. Anyone can be nice to their caregivers when they are nice but being respectful when they are not would show the emotion maturity that Harry is going to need.



Verbina - May 3, 2004 9:00 am (#426 of 2971)

At the beginning of book 6, I see the Dursleys treating Harry differently. Not nicer but differently. Dudley will likely be terrified of Harry for no other reason than he will recall the Dementors. Vernon and Petunia will be jumpy around Harry as well because of the threat of Voldemort. This will be fine with Harry for a while but eventually the jumpiness will get to him. Thus he will ask to leave to go to either the Burrow or somewhere else that he has been invited and the Dursleys will be all too ready to send him on his way. Essentially, I think Harry will have a little more freedom from the bullying from Dudley and a bit more...awe I guess...from Vernon and Petunia. This will make him a bit...disoriented as he will still be blaming himself about Sirius though everyone will be mailing him regularly. (Another reason Vernon would be more than happy to send him on his way early. He hates those owls!) He will, this time, be allowed to know what is going on, makin ghim feel as if he is part of things abit though he will want badly to be there. He will still be on an emotional roller coaster with the different things going on around him. I see the next book as not only what happens next with Voldemort but a look at Harry growing and thinking more logically, which would lead to some pretty interesting questions from him. Basically, he will start out the book being sullen and guilt ridden but by the end...he will start to come out of it at the very least.



A-is-for-Amy - May 3, 2004 9:12 am (#427 of 2971)

Well JKR had said that this will be his shortest stay at Privet Drive yet, and I can think of TONS of reasons for this, but I think for the most part, he'll be sad. He is grieving for Sirius, but that doesn't mean he has to wallow in it. I remember when my father died, I felt a bit guilty the first few times I was able to laugh, or hadn't thought about him every few minutes. Harry has to go through a grieving process, but he also has to realize the he isn't the only one doing so. His friends have shown that they want to help, and I hope that he lets them. I'm also curious as to where Harry will be spending his summer, if not at Privet Drive.



night41 - May 3, 2004 4:05 pm (#428 of 2971)
Edited May 3, 2004 5:05 pm

I just got done watching to the Quidditch match in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on HBO. It made me realize I miss reading about Harry playing Quidditch. I really do hope nothing comes up to stop Harry from playing in the next book.



Dumbly-dorr - May 9, 2004 9:05 pm (#429 of 2971)

As far as Harry at Privet Drive in book 6: Dudly and Vernon are stagnant, their characters don't really change, ie. bullying but with the inevitable weakness that is characteristic to bullies. Petunia, however is the real driving force in that household. She's the one who really calles the shots. Now that Harry knows that Petunia knows more, much more, than she's ever revealed, I think Harry will, in some way, be able to talk with her, even if only a little--that is, if and only if, Petunia will curb her stiffness. Petunia of the past may not be open enough to do this, but now that Harry knows that she knows, he may be able to get through to her, especially if Petunia sees his sadness over Sirius's death. It may be enough to soften her up a bit concerning Harry.

At any rate, if Petunia is going to open up to Harry at all JKR will be able to find a way to make it happen. Petunia could be a good resource, maybe the only resource, for Harry to find out about his mother's heritage.



Loopy Lupin - May 11, 2004 9:07 am (#430 of 2971)

I don't know about Harry talking to Petunia "only a little." I think he'll use his short stay at Privet Drive this summer to demand information. Petunia may be reluctant at first, but she seems to be able to understand the true gravity of the situation and will likely give in. It should dawn on Harry that Petunia is a link to Lily and the best source of information about her. Petunia, on the other hand, may surprise everyone by being curious herself about what is going on in the WW.



haymoni - May 11, 2004 11:44 am (#431 of 2971)

I agree, Loopy. If anything, she'll want to protect Dudders.



Verbina - May 12, 2004 7:24 am (#432 of 2971)

Can't say that I can imagine Petunia becoming nicer to Harry. She obvioulsy has some really big issues concerning Lily. Harry however may be able to get more out of her concerning Lily because of the potential danger to Dudley. Something like, "If I knew more of what had happened and what you know about my coming here, the better able I will be able to prevent anything from happening." Not those exact words but that sort of logic. Especially if Dudders has some problem relating to the Dementors attack. Petunia would want to know more about what to do to help Dudley and Harry would want to know more about his arrival and such. More along the lines of you help me and I'll help you arrangement.



Loopy Lupin - May 12, 2004 8:21 am (#433 of 2971)

That's an interesting idea Verbina. I wonder if Harry will return to Privet Drive to find Dudley his old self or to find that the Dementor attack has had some bad effect on poor Dudders.



Tomoé - May 12, 2004 8:38 am (#434 of 2971)
Edited May 12, 2004 9:40 am

I think Dudley will want a word with Harry about the Dementor attack, they didn't talk together since then.

Edit : Just question like are Dementors common? Do they attack muggles often? Is there other creatures like that lurking around?



Padfoot - May 12, 2004 10:17 am (#435 of 2971)

Wasn't there something like 100 Dementors that go out on the Quiddich field during that game Harry fell off his broom? I would imagine that not all Dementors were there that day, some had to stay at Azkaban.

We know that Harry is curious about what Dudley heard/felt when the Dementors got close. So if Dudley does want to talk about it, I'm sure Harry would be more than willing too.



Tomoé - May 12, 2004 10:38 am (#436 of 2971)

By Is there other creatures like that lurking around? I meant something other than Dementors, like Lethifolds, Basilisks, werewolves and other creatures that Muggles cannot hope to overcome. Something like wardrobe monsters that do exist and that can kill you for real.



FCBarca - May 16, 2004 9:52 am (#437 of 2971)
Edited May 16, 2004 10:53 am

Well, at least we know Harry isn't a descendant of Slytherin, or a close relative of Voldemort, as JKR squashed it on her official website. You should take a look at it, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as it has some interesting stuff.



Robert Dierken - May 16, 2004 12:16 pm (#438 of 2971)

OK. I give up. When I try the link in post #437, all I get is a list of publishers. How are you getting to more information from there?

(I did manage to score 26 on the HP Challenge at the Scholastic site.)



Czarina II - May 17, 2004 7:26 pm (#439 of 2971)

Robert Dierken, I don't know how to avoid the list of publishers, but maybe try clicking on the "Text-Only Version" line at the top of the page.



Choices - May 18, 2004 9:32 am (#440 of 2971)
Edited May 18, 2004 10:40 am

Robert - Don't give up. I had trouble at first. It took quite a time for mine to load. I clicked on the British Flag at the bottom for language - then it took me to her desk. Then more loading - it just takes time. I don't remember any publishers, but I could have missed them. I thought it interesting that she had gum wrappers all over her desk - shades of Alice Longbottom!!



Robert Dierken - May 18, 2004 12:45 pm (#441 of 2971)

Czarina and Choices - I did finally find a way to get into the right place. Post #2 on the "JK Rowling Official Site" thread shows two links. The US link takes me to the publisher list, but the UK link takes me to the one with the messy desk.

According to JKR, the publisher list is an older website she had before. Apparently my DNS hasn't picked up on the change for that one.



Dumbledore - May 19, 2004 1:57 pm (#442 of 2971)

s.e. jones, on the topic of snape and lily potter...did u notice that the letters of severus snape rearranged spell "pursues evans". as we all know, evans is lily's last name.(i didn't see this clue myself, i read it on a fan website). you all have probably all heard this theory before, however i would just like to remind you. snape's name is probably this way not by coincidence...jkr usually has a method of making her names (i.e. latin and other ancient languages) but for snape i couldn't find one... and it would make sense if snape had a crush on lily in his hogwarts years because it would explain why he hated james so much!



Catherine - May 19, 2004 2:18 pm (#443 of 2971)

Dumbledore,

I'm glad someone else likes anagrams. Check out the anagram thread; it's a lot of fun!

I must say, though, that "Severus Snape" does not make "pursues Evans." There is only one letter "u" in the name Severus Snape, and the phrase "pursues evans" has two.

Best of luck with anagramming! It's what I do when I have insomnia. Cheers!



Dumbledore - May 19, 2004 2:21 pm (#444 of 2971)

thanks for the tip! i didn't actually make up that "pursues evans" thing...so i didn't actually check to see if it was accurate!



megfox - May 20, 2004 2:21 pm (#445 of 2971)
Edited May 20, 2004 3:21 pm

Hi dumbledore! I am glad that you are having fun here on the Lexicon, and like Catherine Allen suggests, you should go see the anagram thread. I do have a request for you, however. Due to the fact that we have many foreign members, and people whose first language is not English, we ask that all of our members use proper grammar, spelling, and capitalization in their posts, whenever possible. For example, we try not to use "netspeak" (an example of this would be the letter "u" for the word "you", or the word "prolly" for the word "probably") Also, please capitalize the letter "I", other wise, your posts might end up looking like this! This is not a reprimand, just a friendly reminder. Hope to see some more of your thoughts on other threads!

Cheers, Meg



eggplant - May 27, 2004 7:38 am (#446 of 2971)

Apparently I’m not the only one who thinks Harry will die, this is from The Scotsman:

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Daniel Radcliffe Predicts Harry's death

Harry Potter star Daniel Radcliffe predicts the schoolboy wizard will die in the last book.Radcliffe reckons author JK Rowling plans to kill off her beloved Harry. Harry's fate in the seventh and final book is a closely-guarded secret. But with every new instalment Rowling reveals more connections between the character and his arch-enemy, the evil wizard Lord Voldemort.

Speaking at a press conference to promote the third film, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Radcliffe, 14, said: "I'm going to be really unpopular for saying this about Harry, but I've always had the suspicion - with everything that's going on - that he might die. "Harry and Voldemort have the same core in them, we get to see that in the fourth film. "The only way Voldemort could die is if Harry dies as well." Voldemort was responsible for the deaths of Harry's parents and left him with the scar on his forehead. But the pair have similar powers - including their wands and ability to speak Parsel tongue - and Voldemort has been unable to kill Harry. Rowling herself has hinted in the past that Harry may be killed off. Asked whether she would write books about the character when he reaches adulthood, she replied: "You have to wait and see whether he survives to be a grown-up."



Madame Librarian - May 27, 2004 8:52 am (#447 of 2971)
Edited May 27, 2004 9:54 am

You know, this is eerie to read this because I've always held the belief that whether JKR does kill off (nooooo!) Harry at the end, Harry, himself is preparing himself in subtle ways to face his own death. I can't put my finger on exact examples, it's such a vague intuition. Part of it is simply his reluctance to dig real deep into his own history, and his "I'll think about it tomorrow" attitude about certain things. At any rate, I think it's very perceptive of Daniel to also have this feeling even if JKR does not indeed kill off the character.

I don't know if this made any sense.

Ciao. Barb



Miréimé - May 27, 2004 10:31 am (#448 of 2971)

Barb -> Harry, himself is preparing himself in subtle ways to face his own death

I understand what you mean Barb. From book one we got some "Death is the next adventure" from Dumbledore. In book 2, "If death is like this, it isn't that bad" in the basilisk scene. Ghosts are shown as those who missed the trip. The mirror of Erised show what Harry wants and everyone in that mirror happens to be on the Death realm.

And so on and on.

If Harry dies, I'll be sad but, well, it's Jo who write it so the ending is going to be so good, even if Harry... T_T .



Tomoé - May 27, 2004 1:18 pm (#449 of 2971)

GoF -> Harry crouched behind the headstone, and knew the end had come. There was no hope ... no help to be had. And as he heard Voldemort draw nearer still, he knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason - he was not going to die crouching like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet ... he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defence was possible ...

OoP -> Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist; his mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor. [...] Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead [...] let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore ... death is nothing compared to this ...

I can't remember anything in PoA, though. Anyone else?



S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 1:37 pm (#450 of 2971)

I had a theory I posted on the Prophecy thread that I think might explain Harry's connection to death and what may happen to him. It had to do with why Voldemort and Harry survived the night the AK backfired. We know from the books that Lily's sacrifice connected the two of them by causing the AK to backfire. I think the reason Voldemort didn't die is because of this connection. He lived because Harry was alive. The AK couldn't kill him because it was Lily's sacrifice that caused it to rebound, not Harry himself (the prophecy says only Harry and Voldemort can kill each other). The backfiring curse destroyed his body (we can assume no body was found because people said he disappeared not died which would point to a body being found) and so his spirit, still alive, was left without a body, caught between life and death, and that's why he wasn't exactly a ghost. Reciprically, Harry didn't die when the house exploded or fell in (it was in ruins when Hagrid showed up) because Voldemort was then still alive, technically, even though he was bodiless. Thus, one's lifeforce keeps the other alive unless they break the connection by one killing the other. But does that mean they both would die or that only one would? I think this may be why Harry has such a strong connection to death throughout the series and why there was a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye in GoF. I think using Harry's blood may have either strengthened the connection between them that was weakened when Voldemort lost his body, thus ensuring Voldemort can be killed, or providing for a way that Harry can survive once the connection is broken. Also, the entire thing started with love (his mother's love initiated the whole connection) and could be stopped with love (the power that Harry has that Voldemort has not), so I think it fits. I'm still working out the details, though, and would appreciate some help over on the Prophecy thread.



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night41 - May 27, 2004 2:14 pm (#451 of 2971)

Wow good theory S.E. Jones.



Rich - May 27, 2004 10:23 pm (#452 of 2971)

That's really interesting S.E. Jones. I must say, I can't find much to disagree with.

So you're suggesting that Harry and Voldemort are keeping each other alive, and have been since the night Voldemort killed James and Lily, because of effects of the backfiring AK? And because of this if one kills the other, there is a pretty large chance that the "killer" will die too? Because Harry has the ability to love whereas Voldemort, as far as we know, doesn't that could have an effect on how the story comes to an end, so to speak.

I might re-post this on the Prophecy thread as well as this thread.



Fawkes Egg - May 27, 2004 11:54 pm (#453 of 2971)

Very interesting theory, and I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Only JKR knows what's going on. There are certainly many important connections between Harry and LV.

But: "Harry and Voldemort have the same core in them"? Their iwands have the same core. Either Daniel got it wrong (and I read a previous interview where the trio actors hadn't read all the books yet due to lack of time - they're busy kids!), or, more likely, the Scotsman misquoted him.



Padfoot - May 28, 2004 11:13 am (#454 of 2971)

I think the trio have read all the books by now. The kid who plays Neville has said he has read all the books too.



Iverson Godfrey - May 28, 2004 6:34 pm (#455 of 2971)

I saw that quote by Daniel a few weeks ago, but there was more to it...something along the lines that is was only his own opinion and that he had absolutely no extra or inside info about Harry's future, it was just his opinion and he didn't want to be flogged for it. Something like that. I think I read it on the Leaky Cauldron website, but I'm not positive and I don't have time to look it up right now.



haymoni - May 29, 2004 5:05 am (#456 of 2971)

I saw an interview with Dan & he said that the WANDS share a core and he thinks that (through the wands connecting) Voldemort & Harry will end up being killed at the same time.

He finished that statement with - "I'm probably completely wrong."



Verbina - May 29, 2004 7:37 am (#457 of 2971)

In other words, he is just guessing right along with us.

The funny thing is that we can guess all we want but...if previous twists and surprises are any indication, JKR has something totally different in mind for the series end. I mean, if everyone thinks Harry is going to die, the likelihood of it happening drops. Law of averages basically.



freshwater - May 29, 2004 7:50 am (#458 of 2971)

JKR has something totally different in mind for the series end. I mean, if everyone thinks Harry is going to die, the likelihood of it happening drops. Law of averages basically.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me, Verbina...but I'm right there with you! I'll be very disappointed if Harry dies at the end.



Madame Librarian - May 29, 2004 4:01 pm (#459 of 2971)
Edited May 29, 2004 5:01 pm

I'm wondering if with all the various speculations and theories if someone hasn't actually hit upon the way things will play out. I mean, how odd or byzantine could JKR get at this point? I'm a little worried that one of us (or a group) will say that that's what we've figured all along. In other words--it won't be as incredible a twist as we think it should be. I know, I know--someone is saying, "Oh, ye, of little faith."

This isn't really apt for the Harry thread, so I apologize if I've gotten a tangent started. I suppose if there are a bunch of additional comments, this belongs on the predictions thread.

Ciao. Barb



haymoni - May 29, 2004 5:41 pm (#460 of 2971)

I think comments and speculations about whether or not Harry will die or how it might happen can go on the Harry thread. An outright prediction or a conclusion reached after mulling over the comments and speculations should probably be added to the Predictions thread.

Anyway, if that last chapter is truly already written and hidden away in a vault someplace, JKR's had it figured out for a very long time. I'm sure whatever happens to Harry will have been guessed by someone on this forum. We've analyzed every little thing - someone is bound to guess correctly!



Diagon Nilly - May 29, 2004 6:34 pm (#461 of 2971)

I was rereading OOP and a question occured to me. When Harry meets Tonks she explains she's a metamorphmagus. Harry asks how one becomes a metamorphmagus and Tonks explains they're born, not made and a regular wizard needs wands or potions to change their looks. However, in SS/PS, it's explained how Harry could make his hair grow back when Aunt Petunia cut it. Is it possible that Harry was born with a little Metamorphmagus in him?



haymoni - May 29, 2004 9:10 pm (#462 of 2971)

We talked about that somewhere - you might want to do a search to see. I can't remember if it was on Harry's thread or on Tonk's.



freshwater - May 30, 2004 6:38 am (#463 of 2971)

That's an interesting thought, Diagon Nilly. I'd always supposed that the regrowing of hair was simply the result of uncontrolled childhood magic responding to the intense embarassment he felt with the bad haircut....something along the magical lines of regrowing missing bones (CoS).

Still, your point has a lot of potential....could Harry 'hide' from LV by changing shape? Will the scar disappear--or not--when he changes appearace? ....all assuming that he does have any metamorphmagus abilities, which has not be established in canon, to my recollection, at this point.



Chris. - May 30, 2004 6:55 am (#464 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2004 7:56 am

I don't think Harry is a Metamorphmagus.

I like the idea of Tonks being rare, being what she is. I think people forget that, like Time Turners and Animagus, not everyone has something or is someone.



lys potter - Jun 2, 2004 12:27 pm (#465 of 2971)

I have always been suspicious that Harry is a metamorphmagus, because of that very example, Diagon Nilly. I remember discussing it once we came back to World Crossing, but also on the second temporary board. There may have even been a thread called "who will be a metamorphmagus" that has since been auto-mulched. It seems to me that there were others who thought that someone else would turn out to be a metamorphmagus, otherwise we wouldn't have learned so much about it. (Think polyjuice potion for the trio in CoS, then Moody/Crouch Jr. in GoF. Or, animagi in PoA, then Rita Skeeter in GoF.) I think JKR teaches us about these things so that we can put things together if we have our wits about us.

Personally, I do think it could be Harry, and that the hair re-growing incident wasn't just emotional magic. The only downside of this is that Harry is already so many "special" things - the Boy Who Lived, Parseltongue, etc.



haymoni - Jun 2, 2004 12:35 pm (#466 of 2971)

What if, during his Auror training with McGonagall, Harry discovers that he is, indeed, a metamorphmagus? (JKR chose to read that particular section about Harry wanting to be an Auror out loud, didn't she?)

That opens up a whole realm of possibilities. Harry could change his appearance to hide/escape from Voldemort. And, yes, he is "special" - he has his own inherited gifts from James & Lily plus the talents he received "on the rebound" from Voldy.



S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2004 2:33 pm (#467 of 2971)

What about the begining of that passage?

Once, Aunt Petunia, tired of Harry coming back from the barbers looking as though he hadn't been at all..... (underline mine).

Could that also point to anything?



Dumbledore - Jun 2, 2004 3:57 pm (#468 of 2971)

That's very possible, Sarah. But I, personally, don't think Harry is a Metamorphmagus. The line above was probably just a passing reference to the fact that regardless of how many times Harry cuts his hair or tries to tame it, it will always be wild and out of control. However, I would like for Harry to be a metamorphmagus, because I think it would be cool if he had special powers that we were unaware of, as well as the fact that being a Metamorphmagus would be a power entirely his own, and not transferred to him by Voldemort!



Emily - Jun 2, 2004 4:03 pm (#469 of 2971)

I always thought that Harry's hair stayed the same was because of emotional magic- he was afraid of other people seeing him with different hair, so it repaired itself.



Dumbledore - Jun 2, 2004 4:04 pm (#470 of 2971)

I agree with you on that, Emily.



Steve Newton - Jun 2, 2004 5:29 pm (#471 of 2971)

I have started listening to POA in anticipation of the opening of the movie on Friday. In the first couple of chapters (sorry I'm listening and don't have page or chapter numbers) it is mentioned that Harry is the youngest quidditch player in 100 years. It also says that The Big Bad V is the worst wizard in 100 years. Is their a connection?



S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2004 11:28 pm (#472 of 2971)

There was a comment made by JKR during her biography that was on A&E tonight that I found very interesty. I'll underline the parts I found interesting:

When he first arrives at school, he is totally unsure. He has the feelings we all have, as adults as well, when you enter a new place and you don't know what's going on, but greatly exaggerated, obviously, by the fact that he's set apart even there by his fame and his ancestry and... um... this curious quirk... um... that means he survived what should have been this fatal attack. He's every boy but with a twist.

Now I assume the "curious quirk" is referring to some, shall we say, some twist of fate, meaning the prophecy, Lily's sacrifice, something about Harry we don't yet know, etc. That whole thing. But, what is there about his ancestry that sets him apart? His being a half-blood?

There was another interesting quote:

Death is an extremely important theme throughout all seven books. I would say possibly the most important theme. If you are writing about evil, which I am, and if you are writing about someone who is essentially a psychopath, you have a duty to show the real evil of taking a human life. (JKR stressed the "the", not me.)

Does that mean Harry isn't going to kill Voldemort?



Weeny Owl - Jun 3, 2004 12:07 am (#473 of 2971)
Edited Jun 3, 2004 1:09 am

Not necessarily, Sarah, but it doesn't bode well for other characters.

JKR said that the sixth book will be where Harry has his shortest stay at Privet Drive ever. Perhaps the Dursleys will be killed or attacked. Harry will be sixteen in the sixth book, and shortly after that book he will turn seventeen and be a legal adult in the Wizarding World. Perhaps he won't have to return to Privet Drive in the seventh book, or if he does, maybe it will be to collect whatever belongings he has left there and say goodbye to Petunia. I doubt if she or Dudley would be killed off, but considering Vernon's arrogance, he seems a likely target.

While this is the Harry Potter thread, it should be taken into consideration how other deaths could affect him.

Any of the Weasleys dying would be horrible for him. He doesn't really know Hermione's parents, but they could certainly be a target, and what affects her would affect him.

Of course she could just be referring to Harry's Parents, Cedric Diggory, and Sirius, but I think she said in an interview that there would be more deaths.

Since we experience the happenings from Harry's point of view, she almost has to keep him around so we know how he deals with events. Even in the final battle his point of view afterwards is going to be important... at least I hope so.



mike miller - Jun 3, 2004 4:44 am (#474 of 2971)
Edited Jun 3, 2004 5:45 am

JKR does mention "more deaths" in the Biography interview when she's holding the final chapter of book seven. She says that it will pull everything together and provide a bit of an epilogue about what happen to those who survive.



Steve Newton - Jun 3, 2004 6:38 am (#475 of 2971)

Beth,

I didn't mean that The Big Bad V was 100 years old but that a major evil was around 100 years ago. Could this in some way connect to having a young Quidditch player 100 years ago? I am becoming very suspicious of all JKR coincidences.



Verbina - Jun 3, 2004 7:31 am (#476 of 2971)

I had seen that interview before actually. It was done...before the release of OotP. I knwo because I have that one on tape and will watch it every so often hoping for a few clues here and there.

The part I found the most interesting was that the original first chapters gave away too much. In fact she said that if you put them all together and read them, you wold know the entire plot. Interesting. Though I doubt the one she allows us to view on her website would reveal much.

Anyway, back to Harry. His ancestry does seem to hint at there being a bit mroe than just his parents but then...it could be just his parents. His parents were pretty well known in the wizarding world I think. Or at least their names were well known. Why, I am not sure.

Odd quirk - could that elude to the strange twist of fate that made Harry the Boy Who Lived instead of Neville?



night41 - Jun 4, 2004 12:54 pm (#477 of 2971)

What if Vernon does die in the next book, how do you think Harry would react. I really don't have any idea how Harry would react. I know Vernon made Harry's life a you know what, but Vernon is still family.



Accio Book Six - Jun 5, 2004 4:15 pm (#478 of 2971)

One thing has always made me wonder about harry and his future. Everyone keeps making their predictions... dada teacher, auror, quiddich player, MoM member... To me, the only two options are being an Auror or a Quiddich player. Now this is what bothers me. Quiddich, as harry has said OVER and OVER is the pretty much what makes the world go round. Even in the worst of times, getting on his broom makes him feel better. And then there's his remarkable talent. People are constantly commenting that they've never seen anyone fly like him.

So Quiddich is what makes Harry happy, and he's just SO damn good at it. This makes me think that he couldn't go for the rest of his life without playing quiddich. I mean, logically, he'll pretty much never play again after he leaves Hogwarts. how could he live with that?

But then again, Quiddich is just such an insignificant thing in large scheme of things. Harry just seems destined for greater things. He is just great at the DADA and I REALLY think he's meant to bring peace and justice to the world. Harry is meant to make a difference. I just don't think that after he defeats the dark lord and loses more loved ones, that he could just retire from the evil-fighting business and go back to something less significant.



Accio Book Six - Jun 5, 2004 4:52 pm (#479 of 2971)

And about harry's powers... I have TRIED to read this entire thread, but it proved to be a daunting task. So I'm sorry if the subject is dead, but I want to get my two cents in here before it's all done.

Harry, in my opinion, will be the next Dumbledore. I think he is a GREATLY powerful wizard. A lot of people on here have been saying that there's nothing really that special about him except his knack for getting help or waiting until someone else screws up. Well although he may have gotten help, I think that he contains an extraordinary amount of magical power. I think at this point, that this is coming out in the form of his DADA powers... which is why Hermione has told him time and again that he is a very powerful wizard... I know she says this at least in the first and fith books. It's also why he was asked to run the DA.

I also know that JK has also called him very 'special' and that he's a very 'powerful wizard'. It just seems to me that MOST children are greatly loved by their parents. Not all parents died for thier children, but it just seems that most kids are filled with love, and if it's so hard for voldemort to kill anyone who is filled with love, he would have had a lot more trouble killing the hundreds of others that he has. There is something more about harry.

And to all those people that say he's not great at everything else like transfiguration... I just think that he's had a lot of other things on his mind in the past five years at school. Chances are, when Dumbledore was in school, he didn't have all of these other distractions while he was learning his other subjects. I think that as harry gets older and voldie is out of the way, he'll be able to bone up on all the other things that matter in life. He'll be able to condure up shintz chairs and do all the great things that dumbledore can do. remember, when a student leaves hogwarts at 17, it doesn't mean that they've learned all that they can learn... it just means that they've got the foundations. I just think that Harry has been focusing on what has been important to him to this point, which has been passing his classes (though not worrying about EXCELLING) and dealing with the threats of impending evil.

I think that Harry is now focussed. He's lost Sirius. He has a goal in life... he wants to be an auror and he knows that if Voldemort is going to be eradicated, that it has to be him to do it. I think that he's going to work hard from now on, and I don't think that he'll try and do everything himself anymore.

Wow. That was long. I just wanted to address everything about him that I've been keeping bottled up inside. Thanks for reading!



Verbina - Jun 5, 2004 9:09 pm (#480 of 2971)

I for one agree with you Accio Book Six! Harry is a great wizard. Sure he may not always have high marks in school but in a pinch, he knows exactly what to do. He always does know. And it is because of this...his ability to think on his feet...that is what makes him great. Hermione is book smart and Ron has had the advantage of being around the magic all his life but...Harry...he has shown the true power within him. Books can only go so far



Czarina II - Jun 6, 2004 6:53 pm (#481 of 2971)

I also agree with you, Accio Book Six and Verbina.

Lots of people have mediocre marks in high school, especially in the lower grades. They improve toward the end of high school or after they leave because they mature and become more focused. That is what is currently happening with Harry. Also, we really don't know much about Dumbledore. It seems as though he comes from rather humble origins, though. I don't think the teenaged Dumbledore (back in 1855 or so) was smart like Hermione. I don't think he constantly studied like Ernie MacMillan. I see Dumbledore being more like Harry -- just getting by, doing his assignments but not obsessing over them, etc. Therefore, I think is it quite conceivable that Harry will become the next Dumbledore.

Actually, if Harry lives at the end of Bk7, I'd really like to see JKR write another novel with Harry as a 150-year-old Headmaster -- with his own Chocolate Frog card, of course. :-)



Diagon Nilly - Jun 6, 2004 7:27 pm (#482 of 2971)

I also noticed something the happened in OoP...It's accepted that older and more practised wizards can perform certain magic without their wands. While in Wisteria Walk when the dementors attack Harry is able to perform the Lumos spell on his wand without his having to hold it...If I'm not mistaken, this is the first time Harry has performed intentional magic without holding his wand...I wonder if this is meant as a significant advancement for him, being able to do a form of wandless magic.



haymoni - Jun 7, 2004 1:54 pm (#483 of 2971)

Gifted children often get poor marks in school.

They aren't being challenged - they realize they know more than the teacher - they are too busy concerning themselves with issues greater than what's going on at school.

Sound like anyone we know???



vball man - Jun 7, 2004 7:39 pm (#484 of 2971)

don't think the teenaged Dumbledore (back in 1855 or so) was smart like Hermione. I don't think he constantly studied like Ernie MacMillan. I see Dumbledore being more like Harry -- just getting by, doing his assignments but not obsessing over them, etc. - Czarina II (why the "II"?)

I've gone back and forth about this. On the one hand, there's his simple lifestyle - wants "socks" for a present, treats everyone with respect, has a brother who can't even read, and he never advances himself - even though we all know he could dominate any struggle he chose. On the other hand, in NEWTs he "did things with a wand I'd never seen before."



Lady Kazuma - Jun 7, 2004 8:01 pm (#485 of 2971)

I always thought (alas, yet another thing tonight I have no evidence for) that Dumbledore as a child was a bit more like Neville than anyone else. I just can't back it up...

Well, Harry is still a good comparison. I think those two are very similar as well.



Ff3girl - Jun 7, 2004 10:17 pm (#486 of 2971)

I think Dumbledore actually was VERY gifted in school. I think I can remember one of the old wizards who was giving the OWLs exams saying that he saw Dumbledore do things with a wand he had never seen before... I can't remember quite where that is right now...



Verbina - Jun 7, 2004 10:22 pm (#487 of 2971)

That doesn't mean however that he did very well on the essays and such. It meant that when it came to actual magic, he was very talented. He could have been one to not do well on the written assignments yet do extremely well on the actual doing of the magic.



The giant squid - Jun 7, 2004 10:44 pm (#488 of 2971)

We seem to have drifted into more Dumbledore and less Harry, so let me try to steer us back on course. Smile

Haymoni had a good point, in that gifted students sometimes get low grades because they don't bother to apply themselves. They do enough to get by, then go back to whatever "important" things they have on their minds. This definitely sounds like Harry. We never hear about him actually failing a class, even though he hardly ever does homework (or does it at the last minute), pays little attention in class, purposely does assignments incorrectly (divination)... Most students, wizard or muggle, that did all this would have failed out of school a long time ago--Harry would have been held back to Dennis Creevey's class! Smile I can only conclude that Harry is both greatly talented and incredibly lucky when it comes to guessing on tests.

--Mike



Ff3girl - Jun 7, 2004 10:44 pm (#489 of 2971)
Edited Jun 7, 2004 11:46 pm

Still, in order to know all those spells and be able to perform acts that the tester had "never been seen done with a wand before", Dumbledore would've had to have studied and practiced the spells quite a bit. Besides that, I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would be a person who would do anything important half-heartedly, including school work. Then again, maybe that is what people will be saying of Harry someday... "What?? You mean the boy who lived only averaged Acceptable in his charms classes??!!"

Edit: oops, sorry... you're right, this really is more about Dumbledore...



Hagsquid - Jun 8, 2004 1:42 pm (#490 of 2971)

OoP-chapter 31.

I doubt it, shouted tiny Professor Marchbanks, "not if Dumbledore doesn't want to be found! I should know... examined him personally in Transifuguration and Charms when he did NEWTs... did things with a wand I'd never seen before."

To me, this doesn't suggest that he scored high in his classes/tests. Just that he knew his way around a wand. Harry performed a corpreal patronus, to the amazment of many.

I can see the links between Harry and Dumbledore.



S.E. Jones - Jun 8, 2004 3:22 pm (#491 of 2971)

It seems to me that Harry is exceptionally bright (think of the way he picks up on little things that even Hermione doesn't always get, like in PS when he realized that it must've been Voldemort or Snape who gave Hagrid the dragon egg, or in CoS when he realized that the girl who died must've been Moaning Myrtle...). I think his main problem is he just doesn't apply himself and doesn't have to until he has to, unless it's necessary. By that I mean that there is no incentive for him to do well or study hard until he is facing dragons or Voldemort, etc. He doesn't have to contend with parents or expectations or the other things that motivate most children to do well in school. He has the ability, no doubt about it, just not the drive under normal conditions.



Catherine - Jun 8, 2004 3:31 pm (#492 of 2971)
Edited Jun 8, 2004 4:33 pm

I would add to this discussion that there are many kinds of intelligence, which I tended to overlook (yes, even as a teacher ) until I was the parent of a pretty special child. (See my introduction for details).

Performance intelligence and Verbal intelligence are fairly different in the Muggle world, and perhaps it's not a stretch to say that that might prove true in the Wizarding World, also.

Harry hasn't shown exceptional "book smarts" as of yet, but his Wizarding Performance I.Q., at least by my measure, seems to be pretty top-notch. He's survived, so far, yes? One of a kind?



Prefect Marcus - Jun 8, 2004 4:18 pm (#493 of 2971)

Don't be too hard of Harry. He is smart. He is intelligent. He is starting to become fairly powerful. But he is not omniscent. Nobody is. Just because he doesn't think of something at the time it is important does not make him any less intelligent.

For example, why in GoF didn't Harry just accio the map and egg when he had his leg caught in the step? The answer -- he didn't think of it.

Even the extremely bright Hermione doesn't always know the answer right off. It took her quite some time to figure out the basilisk, for example. Dumbledore had trouble with that, too. Even Voldemort is fallible as we have endlessly commented on.

I am amused by the thread asking why James and Sirius didn't suspect Peter if they were so smart. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. But as Harry tried to explain to Hermione and Ron, and later to the D.A., you can't always come up with the right answer at the moment of crisis. There is a lot of luck involved.



Verbina - Jun 9, 2004 8:42 pm (#494 of 2971)

Plus we also have to consider that Harry doesn't think of himself as a great wizard. He knows that Hermione is the smartest of the three and says it many times. And he knows that Ron has the advantage over him by having been exposed to the WW all his life. This puts me in the way of thinking that he is willing to learn things.

Actually, he reminds me a bit of my #1 son. (I have two BTW) He remembers things that no one would think he would remember. Passing comments are simply just filed away somewhere for future reference ^_^ And I see that in Harry. He remembers things that most would forget. He remembered that Hagrid had said he wanted a dragon in PS/SS. He pieced things about Moaning Myrtle together because he remembered something that no one else did.

Basically, I see Harry as a hands on, visual learner (books and essays bore him to tears) that has many things on his mind, least of which is homework.



rambkowalczyk - Jun 10, 2004 5:07 am (#495 of 2971)

I was all set to challenge Marcus about Harry not using his wand. (I thought his wand was out of reach as well)but I rechecked the source. Sure enough it says Harry used his wand to try to clear the Marauder's Map but it was too far away.

So instead I say well done. I never noticed this before. And I have read this section a number of times.



Rich - Jun 12, 2004 10:54 pm (#496 of 2971)

Lily and James, as far as we know, were quite smart and intelligent. So it is certainly in Harry's genes to be a capable wizard.

As Verbina said:

...I see Harry as a hands on, visual learner (books and essays bore him to tears)...

I agree, and this explains why he is extremely good at DADA and even Care of Magical Creatures. While these classes require theory they are predominantly practical. And while the likes of Charms and Tranfiguration are also practical they require a lot of theory to perfect incantations and wand movements etc. Potions is practical but the work is very complicated and requires a lot of study.

Hermione wants to understand the theory in order to do the practical work whereas Harry wants to jump straight into the practical work. They both have different natures.

I find practical work tedious and uninteresting if I don't understand the theory behind it. While some other kids might like to jump straight into pratical work regardless of what it is they're doing. What it comes down to is a child's nature.

Harry is more than capable of doing whatever it is he puts his mind towards doing. Whether he can be bothered or not is another thing all together.



Accio Book Six - Jun 13, 2004 8:15 am (#497 of 2971)

I completely agree, Rich. It's not that Harry CAN'T, it's that he doesn't WANT to. He just doesn't really see things that don't give immediate results as worth his time... Hmmmm... I WONDER why he is this way? *sarcasm*

Harry has a lot of pressing things in his life that require a lot of thought and skill. He doesn't want to waste his time in history of magic when he could be learning DADA skills and stuff like that.

Also remember that James and Sirius were two of the best students Hogwarts has ever seen. And whenever the book mentions Hermione checking Ron and Harry's homework, Harry's is always lEAGUES better than Ron's. I think if he actually applied himself, he'd be better than Hermione herself.

And one last thing... I can't remember where I read it, but JK Rowling was quoted as saying something like "Harry is a very powerful wizard... he is a lot more powerful and has talent that even he doesn't know about yet" (that was a very crude rendition of the quote, but it' a long that nature.



Verbina - Jun 13, 2004 8:55 pm (#498 of 2971)

I wouldn't say that Harry won't do the things to get good marks in potions and such. I would say that he simply cannot do it the same way as others can. He needs to see the actual working of the magic to understand it. For instance, the history of magic has essentially no hands on things in it. So in that class he doesn't do as well as he could. But now with the DADA, he is able to see and do the magic itself, thus he is better able to grasp it.

Plus we all know where his interests lie. In the action sort of classes. Though...he seemed to do all right in astronomy though little was said about that class.

Sort of how a kid could do terribly in english but get extremely high marks in science or art. If the child is interested and is geared to a visual learning, then those are the subjects they will do well in.



S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 5:57 pm (#499 of 2971)

Just found this old quote and thought it was very interesting:

The Boston Globe, 18 October 1999:
Q: Do you know what Harry's parents look like?
A: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and that's very important in a future book."



Accio Book Six - Jun 14, 2004 6:02 pm (#500 of 2971)

oooooh... that's exciting! Good one, S.E.! I've heard about the quote, but I've never read it. It's exciting to know just even a little bit of what's going to happen in one of the next books, and this one seems big, eh? I wonder what it could be... what could having your mother's eyes POSSIBLY do for you?

Does anyone have any ideas?



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Lady Nagini - Jun 14, 2004 6:04 pm (#501 of 2971)
Edited by Jun 14, 2004 7:05 pm

Could it be a part of Harry's protection? Do we know what color eyes Petunia has?

Also, it's interesting that his eyes are green, a color typically associated with Slytherin. This would probably be better posted on the Hidden Meaning of Color thread, though.



Accio Book Six - Jun 14, 2004 6:15 pm (#502 of 2971)

Maybe Lily was really good at Occlumency... Occlumency has a lot to do with the eyes, doesn't it? So maybe Harry will find a formidable power in occlumency... it seems that he'll need to be good at it if he wants to beat Voldemort, because he's great at it.

Do intense eyes have to do with anything else we know about yet?



S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 7:05 pm (#503 of 2971)

Maybe the importance of Harry having Lily's eyes is someohow related to why Petunia kept Harry? I mean, maybe she couldn't turn down the infant when she looked into his eyes and saw her sister looking back at her (metaphorically speaking). It would show that Petunia does have some love for her sister for her blood without her having to come out and say it....



mike miller - Jun 15, 2004 6:28 am (#504 of 2971)

I come up with 2 quick thoughts:

First, eyes are used for seeing, so is it possible that Harry will discover a power of Divination yet untapped? He has experienced several what could be called "seeing" events so far. Did Lily possess the "inner eye"? Were the precautions that ultimately saved Harry's life that night in Godric's Hollow the result of Lily's preminitions? The potential clue from the PoA film for a skill in Divination could be Sirius calling Harry's name from the crystal ball.

Second, the eyes are often referred to as "the windows to the soul". Harry does seem to have a self-sacrificing" character always willing to take on danger to save someone else. I hate to think where this could lead!



Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 6:49 am (#505 of 2971)

When I wrote my message about Harry's possible use of his eyes in the form of occlumency, I thought immediately afterwards that he could be a seer... but I second-guessed myself, I guess, because he was never able to see anything in divination class. But maybe this is one of his strong powers that JK has said he will find out about but hasn't yet... I'm so curious as to what they are! She has talked about Harry being way more powerful and having way more powers/abilites than he could ever guess. Divination would be good, but I can almost see it leading Harry astray. Being able to forsee events would be a huge help, but if they involved himself or volemort, I can see Harry worrying less or more about events and feeling as though he has no control over the outcome. Imagine Harry forsaw the end of Voldemort, and then got overconfident. We all know that Dumbledore has said that it is our actions that matter, and if harry thinks that no matter what, Voldemort will die, that will lead him into a false sense of security.

What do you think? I just think that a great talent at occlumency would be more useful... hmmmmmmmmmmm...



night41 - Jun 15, 2004 8:13 am (#506 of 2971)

Do you think Harry has ever been to his parent's grave?



Diagon Nilly - Jun 15, 2004 8:46 am (#507 of 2971)

Probably not, as I think He'd have mentioned it. I know a lot of people are hoping he'll make a visit there in the next 2 books. Although I'm surprised no one has brought him there yet...



Steve Newton - Jun 15, 2004 10:09 am (#508 of 2971)

Quite a few posts ago someone suggested that Harry will either end up as an auror or a quidditch player. Quidditch seems to be just a game and not that important in the scheme of real life. However, I am reminded that Harry is the youngest seeker in 100 years and that the last time there was an evil wizard of Lord V's power was 100 years ago. (Sorry, can't site the source of either statement. The first is in SS and the second is probably in POA, I just read it recently.) I think that his flying/quidditch skill will be important in defeating the Big Bad V.



Chris. - Jun 15, 2004 10:16 am (#509 of 2971)

Steve, I think you could have a theory there. Harry's Quidditch reflexes have helped him in the past. They helped him dodge the dragon's attacks in the First Task of the Tournament (GF) and then again in the graveyard against Voldemort.



Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 11:38 am (#510 of 2971)

And when he was in the MoM with Bellatrix, Dumbledore, and Voldemort. I'm pretty sure he dodges a couple hexes there as well.

I'm with you guys about Harry's unnatural ability at Quiddich. I've posted a lot about it on the Heir of Gryffindor thread if you want to go read it. He's just TOO good for it only to be important in the sense of him winning games for Gryffindor... there's something more to it, I'll bet my life on it!



Padfoot - Jun 15, 2004 1:22 pm (#511 of 2971)

the eyes are often referred to as "the windows to the soul"-Mike

I am reminded of how often people compare Harry's eyes to Lilly's eyes. We don't know a lot about her. But we do know she was kind, she tried to help Snape at least once. There has been talk that the Lupin/Harry scene in the PoA movie could be a clue for the next couple of books. In the movie Lupin talks about how Lilly was there for him when no one else was. Keeping that in mind, perhaps Harry has a soul similar to Lilly's. Harry obviously stands up for his friends and doesn't bully kids smaller than him. He breaks rules like James, but I'd like to know what other qualities he could have gotten from his mom.



Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 1:32 pm (#512 of 2971)
Edited Jun 15, 2004 2:37 pm

I'm going back a few post to the meaning of Lily/Harry's eyes. The more I thing of it, the more I believe Lily was and Harry is a seer. That would answer a lot of question.

There are Harry's dream in GoF, in the first one he's seeing the events by Frank's point of view, nothing to do with legilimency, and he watched a conversation in the Hanged Man that even Frank didn't witness. (GoF 1)

There's the second dream, where he follow Crouch Jr's owl to Voldemort. He flutter across the room and stay behind the Voldemort's chair. Nothing to do with legilimency. (GoF 29)

There's the dream about his patronus in PoA. That was after he encounter Ravenclaw and do his patronus for the first time, but he didn't saw his patronus in the match. (PoA 13)

He had a feeling of dread as he left Sirius, as if he wouldn't see him again. (OoP 24)

He dreamed Ron and Hermione were crowned and the next day he learn they have been made prefects. (OoP 9)

When Harry tell Dumbledore about the snake and Mr Weasley, he asked if Harry was within the snake or fluttering above the scene. Dumbledore suspected that Harry and Tom's mind where connected by the failed AK, but the "fluttering above the scene" doesn't sound like legilimency. Dumbledore suspect something else (notice he wasn't surprised when Harry tell him he dreamed of Voldemort in GoF). (OoP 22)

If Lily and Harry are seer, that would explain why Dumbledore had the Potter's key and the invisibility cloak, why some times he seems to know a lot and other times he seems clueless about some major things.

Why he knew how to give all the information Harry needs to get the stone, but didn't knew how to prevent Harry from going in Voldemort's trap in OoP. Why he didn't act in CoS, except to say you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who sk for it. Why he was clueless about the marauders being animagi. Why he didn't knew about Moody/Crouch.

Edit : plus, there's that instance when Harry tell Tonks there's no seer in is family, that line is prime candidate to backfire spectacularly.



S.E. Jones - Jun 15, 2004 3:50 pm (#513 of 2971)
Edited Jun 15, 2004 4:53 pm

You forgot one, Tomoe. Harry's Divination final in PoA. He made it up but he said he saw a hippogriff, with its head, flying off. Buckbeak then later, with Harry's help, escapes the executioner and flyies off with Sirius.

Also, his dream with the Patronus and Firebolt: he has the Firebolt over his shoulder while he's chasing the Patronus through the forest to a clearing (which I believe is by the lake). Could this be the clearing where he either sees the Patronus or casts it later? Also, the Patronus is his father's image, he's carrying his godfather's present with him. You could almost argue that he needs his godfather to help him find his father. Of course you could also argue the referse since white stags are known in legends for leading people who are lost or on quests, that the stag (James) led Harry to Sirius.

Anyway, I've long suspected that either Harry or Ron may end up being a seer. I've seen evidence in the books pointing both ways, so I'm not decided which way to go. However, the 'Truest Gryffindor of All' essay on the Lexicon pointed out that St Godric was known for the gifts of prophecy and prescience (being able to see things that are happening miles away in the present, that is if I spelt it right). So if you believe the 'Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor' theory, it certainly points that way.



Lady Nagini - Jun 15, 2004 3:58 pm (#514 of 2971)

I don't know, somehow it just seems that making Harry the Heir of Gryff and a Seer would just be too easy. You know, like making him prefect. Yes, he is the hero of the story -- but he can't be the Boy Who Lived, the savior of the WW, a prefect, Head Boy, the Heir of Gryff, and a seer all in one. He's supposed to be less 'superhero-ish' than that.

That didn't make any sense. Let me try again.

He can't have all these honors and powers bestowed upon him; it would end up making him a caricature of the Harry we know. It would typecast him even more, and JKR wants to avoid that, at least as far as I can tell.



S.E. Jones - Jun 15, 2004 4:35 pm (#515 of 2971)

That's why I thought it might also be Ron. There is evidence pointing both ways.....

As for the "caricature", though, he'd still be the person we know, with or without added powers. He's going to get very powerful. We already know that, but that won't change him from the Harry we know, will it? Yes he's the Boy Who Lived, but he hates the title and it was dearly bought because it cost him a family and a normal childhood. Yes, he'll end up saving the Wizarding World, but we don't yet know what that will end up costing him. If one of his growing powers ends up as prophecy or prescience, I can't say I'd be very surprised because he does seem so very powerful, however, how often does he even remember these dreams or listen to them when he does? He just thinks they are dreams and nothing more sometimes, so even with an added power, there is something there to help balance it out. As for the Heir thing, I think that would only have significance in relation to the fact that Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin and so you have the war they started being ended by their descendants. Nothing more. I don't think it will give him any extra powers or money or fame. It would just be something nifty he could tell his grandkids about, assuming he lives....



Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 4:39 pm (#516 of 2971)

I agree. here here.



Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 4:55 pm (#517 of 2971)

How could I forgot the exam of Divination! Thanks Sarah. ^_^

I don't think being seer will turn him to the Almighty Harry Potter, the Boy Who Live, he is not of the Trelawney fanclub, I don't think he want to be a seer and won't admit he is one until the very end. ^_^



Lady Nagini - Jun 15, 2004 5:04 pm (#518 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jun 15, 2004 6:05 pm

Hmm. He can't be everything, though. I understand that he's growing up to be a very powerful wizard, indeed, but still...being a Seer and Heir -- it's a bit too much, IMHO.

EDIT: Tomoe, that's why I don't think Harry will suddenly become all these things. He's not the Almighty Harry Potter; he has abilities and fate going for him, but...there has to be some point where it stops.



vball man - Jun 15, 2004 5:50 pm (#519 of 2971)

but...there has to be some point where it stops.

Does there? This is about Harry. Harry is worth writing a series of books about, while Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore and countless others aren't.

I don't think that he'll be the Almighty Potter, either, nor do I think that he'll be a seer. But I don't think that "too much power for Harry" is an argument against Tomoe's nice collection of "future glimpses" on Harry's part.

I think that most of these things can be explained by the Harry-Vol connection, or by simple "gut feelings." "Frank and LV" - I don't think that Harry actually saw the bar scene, just the scene at the Riddle house. "Buckbeak flies away" - Harry just said what he would like the truth to be. Then, later, when he found himself in a position to make it true, he did so.



The giant squid - Jun 15, 2004 5:58 pm (#520 of 2971)

I think there's a difference between being able to "see" and being a seer. I could buy that Harry develops (or already has but doesn't know it) the ability to foresee events, but that wouldn't necessarily make him a seer--someone whose sole purpose is foretelling the future. For Harry it would be yet another tool in his fight against LV.

That said, I don't think Harry will develop divinatory abilities. We've got a seer in the books already, so Harry doesn't need that power.

--Mike



Sir Tornado - Jun 16, 2004 2:40 am (#521 of 2971)

I don't know this, but if Harry IS to defeat Lord Voldemort; he'll need all the powers he can have, won't he? Some of them may be those which Lord transfered into Harry, so he may have many hidden and unknown powers after all. But I don't really think Lord is a seer, no way!



Accio Book Six - Jun 16, 2004 4:37 am (#522 of 2971)

I think Harry is going to have atleast one or two HUGE powers that are completely separate from Lord Voldemort. It's all well and good to find out things he can do just because he was marked by Voldie, but I want to see a powerful power or two that came from Lily and/or James... two very well known and powerful wizards. I have a feeling that Legilimency/occlumency/seeing will probably be one of them.

I know, it seems like Harry is becoming a superhero... but look at what he's up against... Lord Voldemort is like the worst and most powerful supervilain of all time. I dare you to find one that was worse! It's just, to go up against a super villain, you NEED to be a super hero. I for one can't wait to see the little boy who put up with so much and always felt like he was worth nothing turn into this hugely powerful wizard and smite Lord Voldemort... But I love harry and anything to do with him, so I suppose I'm a bit biased!



Verbina - Jun 16, 2004 9:45 am (#523 of 2971)

Well what else does Harry have, without the benefit of the transfer of powers from Voldemort. Things that are his abilities alone. Seems to be the ability to get into the trouble and his flying capabilities. Though he does show a knack for the DADA magic.

So if Harry was to be a seer, then I wouldn't see that as being super Harry. I would see it as something he got from his parents and not Voldemort.



Liz - Jun 16, 2004 10:05 am (#524 of 2971)

Remember that Harry is friends with an extremely smart which, Hermione could make a polyjuice potion in second year for crying out loud, if she doesn't invent some sort of potion, spell, or "Power" for Harry or for whatever now that she has the Room of Requirement, in the words of a Weasley "I'm a flubberworm."

As a side note: JKR loves this Room of Requirement and I would be very surprised if Harry doesn't see more of it. *smiles and waves at author*



Sir Tornado - Jun 16, 2004 10:12 am (#525 of 2971)

Power that came from James? Could it be ability to become an Animagus?



Verbina - Jun 16, 2004 10:14 am (#526 of 2971)

About the room...it could very well be a place for Harry to go and be alone. I just get the feeling that he is going to be more quiet and introspective in the future books. And what better place to go and be alone than to be in a room that only those that know how can find.



Liz - Jun 16, 2004 10:22 am (#527 of 2971)
Edited Jun 16, 2004 11:23 am

Yep, Verbina I agree. Harry is probably going to want to separate himself from the rest of the group at times because of the prophecy, but that makes more of a reason to tell Neville doesn't it. Of course this might change because Harry wouldn't want to disturb Neville with this information.

Harry is going to have a lot of mixed feelings, so the Room of Requirement is an ideal place to sit these feelings out.



Lady Nagini - Jun 16, 2004 1:52 pm (#528 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jun 16, 2004 2:52 pm

Especially while grieving for Sirius, he's going to want to be alone. But the rest of the DA knows about the Room, so will they come looking for him?



Accio Book Six - Jun 16, 2004 1:55 pm (#529 of 2971)

That's what I was thinking. Maybe, because it's the room of REQUIREMENT, and Harry wants to be alone, the door will lock or not appear?



Lady Nagini - Jun 16, 2004 1:58 pm (#530 of 2971)

Hmm. How does the Room choose who to cater to? If Harry's already in there, and wants to be left alone, will the Room not admit anyone else? But if people outside want to speak to Harry, will it let them in?



Sir Tornado - Jun 16, 2004 2:29 pm (#531 of 2971)

Yes it will. When HRH were looking for a room for DA; Harry wanted to find a room where "(They) could learn to fight, somewhere they (Umbrige) won't find us." Still, Umbrige found out the room in the end because she Wanted to find it.



Prefect Marcus - Jun 16, 2004 2:52 pm (#532 of 2971)

The Room of Requirement would sure have helped with Harry's tri-wizard tasks.

I need a room where I can study about getting around dragons.

I need a room where I can study about breathing and working underwater.

It's better than a Google search! :-)

I am sure it was no accident that Harry learned of its use in OoP, and not GoF when it is mentioned for the first time. It would have taken away most of the drama of preparing for the tasks.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 16, 2004 3:10 pm (#533 of 2971)
Edited Jun 16, 2004 4:12 pm

How about, Harry goes into the Room of Requirement and says, "I really need to speak to Sirius." Would the room provide him? In a kind of Priori Incantatem-like echo.



Prefect Marcus - Jun 16, 2004 3:32 pm (#534 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jun 16, 2004 4:33 pm

If he did that, it might have a portrait of him. But as in "My Fair Lady":

(As near as I can remember)
Liza: Well, you can switch on your gramaphone player and hear my voice any time you want. It has no feelings to hurt.

Higgins: I can't turn your soul on.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 16, 2004 3:36 pm (#535 of 2971)

Well, Marcus, that's a thought. But could the portrait be useful anyway? I mean Harry might go in wanting Sirius to confide in, but might come out with some handy information.

By the by, I had no idea Professor Higgins was so fresh ; )



Verbina - Jun 16, 2004 10:10 pm (#536 of 2971)

hehe Neither did I.

If Harry really wanted to talk to Sirus...it might produce a portrait if there is one of him around. And we know that the portraits can talk to people so...it could happen. But...what sort of information could Harry get? How much of a conciousness (sp?) would the portrait have? Sorry that would be a topic for the portraits thread. Never mind.



Kerstin - Jun 17, 2004 4:20 am (#537 of 2971)

If the Room of Requirement could do this, why should Harry ask for Sirius? I think he should (or would rather) ask for his parents!

But I don't think it works this way.



Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 4:36 am (#538 of 2971)

Requirement sort of means that one NEEDS something. So I don't think that Harry could get the RfR to show his parents or Sirius because, although he may WANT them, he really doesn't NEED them, right?

haha, maybe I'm wrong, but if the RfR just gave you what you want all the time, it would be called the Room of Desire or something like that. In this case, I think it just shows up if you REALLY need something (like the toilet, a room to practice DADA, or a place to de-tox a drunken house elf)



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 6:30 am (#539 of 2971)

If Harry want to be alone, why not use the Chamber of Secrets, there only two persons who can open the door in the whole Britain, Harry and Tom. Plus, we are suppose to meet Myrtle again ...

(I fact, I thought of the Chamber of Secrets right away when Harry was locking for a room where Umbridge couldn't find them. But it's sure than forty people who enter a toilet where no one goes is not exactly subtle ^_^ )



Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 6:42 am (#540 of 2971)

The only problem is that they'd need to get out. In CoS they only get out with Fawkes' help, didn't they? It just seems like a LOT of hassle. Plus, when you get down there you have to get through all the fallen rocks and walk for quite a while until you get to the big open area. And they'd ALWAYS have to go with harry, because he's the only Parslemouth. Oh, and one last thing. I bet that huge Basilisk carcass STINKS.

oh, and I dont' think either harry OR ginny would be too stoked to go back down there. Too many bad memories.



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 8:04 am (#541 of 2971)

A simple reparo should get the rocks in their proper place, scourgifi would have remove the slim on the slide, I can't believe there's no spell to remove old carcass or odor.

The only real problem is Harry and Giny's bad memories about the place.



Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 10:25 am (#542 of 2971)

OK, So Harry and his friends go into the CoS and clear everything, but how on Earth do they get back up? How does Ginny come out of CoS in the second book any way?



megfox - Jun 17, 2004 10:27 am (#543 of 2971)

Flying on Fawkes' tailfeathers with the others.



Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 10:38 am (#544 of 2971)

Wow, that would indeed be something to watch. A chain of 28 children and a Pheonix.



S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 10:47 am (#545 of 2971)

...but how on Earth do they get back up?

Human ladder? It might work pretty well, except for that last guy... (Poor Neville!)



Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 11:02 am (#546 of 2971)

I thinkthe others might be able to Wingardium Leviosa him.



Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 11:08 am (#547 of 2971)

hahahaha, human ladder! that's awesome. I suppose they could all bring their brooms down, but not everyone HAS a broom.



S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 11:16 am (#548 of 2971)

Okay, I think we're getting a little too far off of Harry. How can we focus a little more on him?

(We could Wingardium Leviousa the human ladder and other DA quandries to the DA thread, though....)



Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 11:23 am (#549 of 2971)

So who here thinks that Harry is going to be stronger (emotionally) in book 6 than he was in OoP? I think he might just get it together and excel at everything. We might just see the hero shining through. Who thinks he'll become more of a whiny brat than he was in OoP? I personally believe he had EVERY right to act and feel the way he did in OoP, but we all have to admit... he was exceptionally moody.



Lady Nagini - Jun 17, 2004 11:25 am (#550 of 2971)
Edited by Jun 17, 2004 12:26 pm

He's definitely going to be grieving. It remains to be seen whether he uses that grief to whine about his life or to take action.



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Padfoot - Jun 17, 2004 11:27 am (#551 of 2971)

I think Harry will become stronger emotionally. He had to grow up in book 5 and deal with Sirius dying. I don't think he was a whinny brat at all. He was definitely moody, but that is part of growing up. He learned some good lessons about controlling his anger (the hard way) that will become useful to him. In every book he has gained strength in knowledge and magical skill, so that will help him defeat Voldemort when the time comes.



Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 11:45 am (#552 of 2971)

I think Harry is going to be stronger emotionally in the next book if he has a short stay at #4. If he remains there a long time though, God help Ron and Hermione. Also, I think Harry is going to mature a lot and finally figure out whom he likes. (I'd better stop this here, we have an entire thread for that)



freshwater - Jun 17, 2004 4:43 pm (#553 of 2971)

Good questions, Accio Book Six! Because Harry will be grieving and adjusting, and dealing with guilt, I think he will be a bit emotionally volatile in the first half of book 6: expect a few angry or emotional outbursts. But, as time passes and Harry heals and matures, I think we will see him demonstrating more self-discipline, insight and wisdom. Wow....that's quite a lot for a sixteen year old!



Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 4:39 am (#554 of 2971)

I can't believe that Harry is sixteen... it blows my mind! *sniff* my little boy is growing up! haha, anyways...

I sort of agree with you, freshwater. I don't know if it will take half of the book, but he will be moody again. I don't know if I could take him being so upset again, though! I loved OoP, but when I read it the first time, I was torn between being happy that I"m finally reading a new HP story and being sad and mildly upset because Harry was so sad and angry the whole time. I'm a very empathetic person, and I just couldn't take it again!

So I think he'll be moody at times, but I think he'll express it more as drive and focus rather than outbursts and self pity like in GoF. He certainly won't be carefree and happy like he was for a lot of the first three (before overhearing McGonnagall in the Three Broomsticks)but I think we'll see a way more mature and driven Harry this time. I just hope he lets himself have fun sometimes... and I hope quiddich comes back because he REALLY needs it.



Liz - Jun 18, 2004 9:29 am (#555 of 2971)
Edited Jun 18, 2004 10:30 am

I wonder if Harry got his firebolt back now that you mention quiditch. Remember Umbridge took it, and so if Harry was to go back to his favorite sport then he would need his firebolt back.

Of course he could get another firebolt from the Room of Requirement. Just a thought. I bet this has already been mentioned, sorry.



Padfoot - Jun 18, 2004 9:59 am (#556 of 2971)
Edited by Jun 18, 2004 11:00 am

Someone will return Harry's Firebolt back to him, probably DD. Either this will happen during the summer or at the beginning of next year. Unless this is one of those times JKR figures we all assume he got it back in OotP, despite it not being mentioned (Marauders map anyone?).



Sir Tornado - Jun 18, 2004 10:27 am (#557 of 2971)

May be, DD would give him back his Firebolt on his birthday. (I read this in some Fanfic)



Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 12:41 pm (#558 of 2971)

I did a very bad job at predicting Harry's mood for OoP, but I'll try nevertheless.

In OoP, Harry was happy to clean 12GP because it kept his mind busy on something else than Cedric, Voldemort and the graveyard. So, I suppose he will try to keep his mind busy and work hard on either potions (if there's a way to the pass the OWL test again in the summer) or DADA. As school begin he will invest himself in all his subjects, he could even take more than the 5 required subjects he need to become Auror, and he could even take Quidditch captaincy to be sure he have no free time.

Meanwhile, loads of characters will share their death experiences with him, Lupin, Molly, Moody, Hagrid, MacGonagall, etc. (I'm not sure about Dumbledore though, I'm not sure Harry will trust him with his grief anytime soon, last time he tried, Dumbledore ended up striking at Sirius, what the old man was thinking!)

Once he will be in school, he will likely try talk with Cho about that, maybe he will become the human hosepipe. I'll likely talk with Neville, Luna and maybe even the Mytery Slytherin.

Now how will he deal with the guilt? I don't think the "it's all because of Snape's mistakes" will work for more than a few weeks. It could then be replace by "it's the whole Order of Phoenix fault", but sooner or later that will be "it's all my fault, I should have listen Hermione when she told me it was a trap, I should have opened Sirius Christmas present, I shouldn't have take Kreacher word, I should have remember Snape is in the Order" and so on. He will isolate himself at some point, like he did when he overheard he was possessed by Voldemort and didn't talk to anyone for a long time. That will probably be the time he'll try to drown his thoughts with work.



freshwater - Jun 18, 2004 5:05 pm (#559 of 2971)

Tomoe', your thoughts on how Harry may deal with the guilt make a lot of sense....take 25 points for your house! :-)



Tomoé - Jun 19, 2004 7:22 am (#560 of 2971)

Like I said, I did a pretty lame job for OoP, so I may be absolutely out of track. But I'll take the points anyway. ^_^

While I'm thinking of it, Harry could even avoid Lupin because he killed his only remaining best friend.



Marie E. - Jun 19, 2004 8:27 am (#561 of 2971)

I wonder if Harry will become overly cautious now. He has seen the results of rushing in without thinking things through and the outcome of his "hero complex". Maybe we'll see some instances of where he should act but is afraid to rush in.



JasonS - Jun 19, 2004 5:39 pm (#562 of 2971)

I have a thought that I have not seen anywhere else about Harry. It seems that the wizarding community is starting to refer to him more and more as "The Boy Who Lived." Instead of calling him by his name, they call him that. It reminds me of You Know Who. Are they affraid of Harry? I think they might be, just a little. Especially now that he has survived 4 direct assaults from Voldemort. Do we know of anyone else who has survived so many assaults.

Also, earlier on this thread some were commenting on Harry'a poor grades and such. Dumbledore does say in OoTP US p 839 that Harry has "struggling more burdens than any student who has ever passed through this school...", it seems to me that grades would almost be secondary. Time after time Dumbledore tells Harry that he has stepped up to challenges that most wizards never face. So I think if Harry were to be graded on the other stuff, he would probably be at the top. I can almost see why grades and studying about goblin rebellions 400 years ago might not matter too much. One time I had an ear infection that was very painful and led to a disease. I was going to have surger two days after my dr's appoitment, but went to school. I had forgotten that we were going to have band pics that day and forgot my uniform. My band director yelled at me saying that I shouldn't be in the pics because I didnt think about the "band." I told him I really didn't care about a stupid picture that day since in two days a doctor would be cutting my ear off and if he didn't get all of the disease, most likely I would end up dying in a year. Sometimes it might seem like people dont care, but if you look at what is all going on in their lives, maybe somethings just seem to not matter. Much like Harry at the end of OoTP. Sorry long post.



Liz - Jun 20, 2004 11:57 am (#563 of 2971)

That's ok to have a long post JasonS, I have had surguries too. Sorry to get off topic.

I quite agree, if wizards thought Harry to be a dark wizard because he could speak Parseltong(hope I spelled that right), then perhaps Fudge in particular is afraid of Harry. Well they thought Harry was the heir of Slytherin so that would tie in to their paranoia.

That would have meant that Harry defeated another dark wizard when a baby to grow up to take his own dark glory. And if they thought Voldie was bad then they would be terrified of the wizard who defeated him.



Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 12:32 pm (#564 of 2971)

I don't think the Wizarding community name Harry the boy who live out of fear, but more out of respect.



S.E. Jones - Jun 21, 2004 2:45 pm (#565 of 2971)

They may start using it out of something bordering on reverence though. I mean, who else has survived a living Voldemort that many times?



Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 3:12 pm (#566 of 2971)
Edited Jun 21, 2004 4:13 pm

Likely, only Dumbledore have survived more death-fight encounters with Voldemort than Harry.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 21, 2004 3:16 pm (#567 of 2971)

Tomoe, I don't think even DD has survived more encounters than Harry. DD knew Voldemort when he was Tom Riddle, but there is no known history of them battling after he became Voldemort (except for OotP). Voldemort just steered clear of Dumbledore.



Green Eyes - Jun 21, 2004 4:59 pm (#568 of 2971)
Edited Jun 21, 2004 6:00 pm

I've been reading the last several posts on this and I must say, I really like the idea of Harry having his mother's eyes and the eyes being the windows to the soul. This is what I have thought all along...because while everyone is telling Harry how much he looks like his father (except for the eyes), he actually behaves much more like Lily based on what we see of her in OOTP and of course the sacrifice she made to protect Harry. She defends Snape even though he is clearly not a friend of hers...Harry defends Neville in front of Malfoy (SS)...he risks his life to save Ginny (COS even though he isn't incredibly close to her) *yet*. He aids Mark Evans, I believe in OOTP.

As for how he will be in book 6...probably feeling very guilty...he'll tend to want to isolate himself more from his friends for fear of their safety. Of course they will have none of that! But I don't see him confiding in Cho...she has never been able to offer him any solace or comfort or aid - NONE. The person who does that in OOTP is Ginny. Read the library scene, the scene about her being possessed, the conversation they have after her first Quidditch match and he compliments her playing...No lectures ala Hermione...just the right words in the right tone of voice (usually depending on his tone) at that right time.



Ff3girl - Jun 21, 2004 5:21 pm (#569 of 2971)
Edited Jun 21, 2004 6:23 pm

Good points, Green Eyes. But I'm not sure about him being more like Lily. We've only actually seen James and Lily once in the whole series (so far). I think its hard to judge a person based on a memory of them when they were fifteen. Lots of people change a lot after being teenagers.

I think Harry is a lot more like his Dad. For one, his Patronus was the stag, and James' animagus was the stag. Harry did feel really bad for Snape after he saw the memory, but then thinks that he wouldn't mind the same kind of humiliation being done to a person like Malfoy.

Besides that, Harry did seem to have a lot of instances in the fifth book of being satisfied about hurtful things he said to his friends.

I don't think we can fairly say that James is more like James or Lily. In my own opinion, he's more like James.

Green Eyes, you say that Harry helped Mark Evans in some way in OOTP? I'm not sure what you're talking about.



Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 5:41 pm (#570 of 2971)

I didn't thought Harry would talk with Cho the same way he would talk with Neville, Ron, Hermione or Ginny. Yes, Sirius was a friend to Ron and Hermione, but he wasn't nearly as important as he was for Harry. Ginny liked him too, but nothing like Harry. Luna did lost her mother, but that's old, at least 5 years as the 6th book will begin. Neville did lost his grand-father, but that have to be at least 6 years ago as we learn in PS that he lived alone with his grand-mother, no too fresh either. There's Hagrid who lost his father as he was in his second year, fifty years ago, not too fresh either.

Cho is only a year apart for that experience, she lost someone dear to her and she lost him suddenly. Her experience of death is closer to Harry's and is still fresh to her memory. Now they have something in common beside Quidditch, and I suppose Harry will understand why she wanted to talk about Cedric even if that topic make her cry. He will likely ask her about tips to deal with the absence, how long it takes to feel a little bit better, things that none of his friend can tell him.



Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 4:36 am (#571 of 2971)

I think Harry is way to independent to go to Cho about that stuff. I think if he trusts ANYONE enough to let them into his private thoughts and fears, it will either be Ron or Hermione, or maybe Hagrid. I just think that from his track record, we probably can't count on him going to someone he isn't close to and who dumped him for help.



Verbina - Jun 22, 2004 4:23 pm (#572 of 2971)

Though...Neville has something going fo rhim in the fact that he has lost someone close to him. Not in the same way of course. But...then again, because of the prophecy, Harry may not say anything to him.

There is a chance though that he may talk a little with Luna. She was the only one that he was willing to talk to at the end of OotP about Sirius. Not alot granted but some. He may talk to her a little especially since one of the last things she said to him seemed to comfort him. So there is a chance there.

Just an idea.



Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 4:17 am (#573 of 2971)

Sorry, I forgot about Neville and Luna. I just meant that he HAS people to go to, so I don't think he'll go to Cho.



Verbina - Jun 23, 2004 10:06 pm (#574 of 2971)

I agree. Not Cho. She was just so...forgive me all Cho fans out there...self centered. She didn't really seem to care about Harry's feelig and what he went through. She only was concerned with trying to feel better about Cedric's death. So I don't see any reason for him to go to Cho.



Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 3:08 am (#575 of 2971)

I would keep way away from Cho, if I was Harry!

I think Harry will be nervous around Neville, now that he knows it could have been him. He did feel a rush of gratitude when Neville stood up for him in OP but I don't think he could talk to him.

Ron, Hermione and Hagrid are too close. He needs someone that can understand him. I think he needs someone who he rarely talks to, except now and again like Luna, Ginny or Dean. He couldn't talk to Seamus, seeing as he didn't believe Harry at the start. I would narrow L, G and D down to Luna and Ginny, seeing as Dean didn't know Sirius.



Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 5:10 am (#576 of 2971)

I actually think he'll talk to Lupin a lot. Before the others probably... I mean, who knew Sirius better than him? And Lupin has lots of experience and might be able to give Harry the answers he needs. Also, I can see Lupin's answers easing Harry's guilt more than any student's answers.



Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 5:14 am (#577 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2004 6:14 am

I don't think he'll talk to Lupin about Sirius. Even though Dumbledore ensured him that it wasn't his fault Sirius died, I think Harry will still feel guilty everytime he sees that Lupin has lost three of his best friends, one that Harry thinks is his fault.



Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 5:28 am (#578 of 2971)

I think he'll feel that way too, but I think Lupin will force him to talk about it and then Harry will realize that he has a real confidant in Lupin.



Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 5:30 am (#579 of 2971)

Maybe, but is Lupin like that? Would he force someone into talking about a touchy subject or anything for that matter?



Ff3girl - Jun 24, 2004 9:01 am (#580 of 2971)

I like Accio Book Six's idea about Harry going to talk to Lupin first. I don't think Lupin would force it out of him, but Lupin was the person Harry talked to about hearing his parents' screams when he encountered dementors. I think Lupin would be really great for helping ease some of his guilt... but this might just be wishful thinking. I think it is more likely that he'll tell Ron & Hermione first.



Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 9:18 am (#581 of 2971)

Well he wouldn't FORCE Harry to talk, but I can see him being very persuasive in trying to get Harry to talk to him about what he's feeling.



Tomoé - Jun 24, 2004 12:10 pm (#582 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2004 1:12 pm

The worst with that situation is Sirius would have been the very first person Harry would talk to.

I'm sure Lupin will try to help and will make it subtly clear he doesn't think Harry is guilty of Sirius's death and he don't mind to talk about it with Harry. He will also wait until Harry is ready to accept his offer.

I'm sure Molly will try to help, Moody too in he's own way (I expect something as creepy as the group picture, poor Harry), and many others. But when the school will start again, Harry won't have access to Lupin anymore, letters are just not like real talk.

He have Luna, she lost her mom and talk with him a bit before the leave last year. However, Luna could get bored pretty fast of death talk and simply answer "hum-hum" after one sentence from Harry and then continue with "do you see the form of that cloud, it look like a nest of a [put a made-up noun]." I'm not sure talks about death will stimulating enough for her.



Ff3girl - Jun 24, 2004 2:30 pm (#583 of 2971)

I don't know about Luna not being interested in talking about death. I think the only true conversation we've ever seen her participate in was one about death with Harry. Every other time she talks, it seems like she just like to throw in a random sentence here and there. For example:

Rita stared at [Hermione]. So did Harry. Luna, on the other hand, sang Weasley is our King dreamily under her breath and stirred her drink with a cocktail onion on a stick." (pg 566 American)

I don't know. It just seemed like the conversation they had was very serious to both of them and to me was very heart-felt. I don't think Luna would get bored talking with Harry about it. But, I'm not JKR... that's not really my call, is it? ^_^



Day - Jun 24, 2004 3:12 pm (#584 of 2971)

I definitely believe Harry will do a bit of talking to Lupin. Lupin is the best connection he has to his parents. Of those living, he knew them best. Lupin and Harry taked a few times in POA and it was some of the most productive and informative conversing he's had so far.



Verbina - Jun 24, 2004 10:05 pm (#585 of 2971)

Personally, I think Harry will be too proud to talk to anyone at first. Then when he really starts to have trouble with things, then he will finally talk to someone. Very likely Lupin. Up to that point, he will likely stay clear of Lupin because of a tinge of guilt. Yes, Lupin lost three friends now....and if you think about it, which Harry may do...all three were "lost" due to Harry.

- James was likely killed because of getting in the way when Voldemort went to kill Harry. (Not sure as this is very much debated yet.) - Peter was "lost" to Lupin when he betrayed the Potters then faked his own death. - Sirius was lost when he went to save Harry at the DoM.

Once Harry wrestles with this guilt for a time, then he will talk to Lupin. But before that...I do think he will talk to Luna or Ginny.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 25, 2004 1:53 am (#586 of 2971)

Look at that big scene on the bridge in the film, Lupin talks to Harry about his mother. I wonder if this was the big correct accidental guess by the director that JKR talks about. It would tie in with Harry talking to Remus.



Accio Book Six - Jun 25, 2004 4:20 am (#587 of 2971)

Well first of all, I don't think that Harry will have a CHANCE to talk to Luna until at least he's back at school. Considering we know that this will be his shortest stay at #4, I assume that he'll talk to a lot of people before he gets the chance to talk to Luna. And I just can't see Harry writing to her. Likely he'll tell people a lot of what's wrong with him, but as usual, he'll keep some to himself... so maybe when he gets to school he'll let the other information out when he's talking to Luna. I don't know though,.



Kevin Griffin - Jun 25, 2004 5:42 am (#588 of 2971)

sorry guys, im new here. From a couple of post back you guys were talking about who Harry would confide in about the prophecy.

The secret of the prophecy is that DD cant defeat Voldemort, not that Harry is the one to have to fight him. Isnt it? So harry cant tell anyone or it could get back to volemort that DD cant beat him, the one he always feared.



Kevin Griffin - Jun 25, 2004 5:47 am (#589 of 2971)

Phelim, I think that you are right. Maybe this helps explain why sirius and james suspected that it was lupin who was the spy. Lupin and james had a falling out in there 7th year or after about lily. Notice that lupin wasnt in their wedding picture.



Accio Book Six - Jun 25, 2004 5:58 am (#590 of 2971)

Interesting idea, Kevin. I bet that could have happened. Before Lily and James got together Lupin tried to get her because she was so nice to him... or maybe he fell in love with her AFTER James and Lily got together... taht would mean that James (being a bit of a hot-head) might have gotten angry and not invited him to the wedding... or SOMETHING. And then James died and Lupin feels guilty and upset forever because he and his best friend never resolved the argument...

Oh, and Kevin. Up until half a hour after your post you are able to edit it. So if you remember something you want to say right afterwards, just hit the edit button next to your post and you can add in the rest of your thoughts. It just helps against double posting.



vball man - Jun 25, 2004 7:46 pm (#591 of 2971)

I like that thinking, Accio. It would put into practice what DD said about Vol. Lord Voldemorts gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.



Verbina - Jun 25, 2004 8:08 pm (#592 of 2971)

It wouldn 't necessarily have to be that Lupin loved Lily....but it could have been a falling out either way. And very possibly over something silly....

I never really noticed that about the wedding pictures. And that lack is very telling!!!

Idea!!!! We know from what Lupin said in the Shrieking Shack, he thought Sirius was the traitor. We already supposed that Voldemort, through Peter was causing trouble with the four friends. What if...Lupin was suspicious of Sirius and voiced his concern to James. James, being best friends with Sirius, would have stuck up for his friend and may even have gotten upset with him to the point of telling him off. This would cause a rift between them all. And Lupin seems to think a great deal of Lily. (Unless that is movie contamination again!) This could be explained if Lily was attempting to heal the rift between the friends before her death.

Anyway, back to Harry. I do think he will talk to people before school and such but he will not talk about Sirius. He didn't talk about Cedric's death and how it affected him. So I think he will do the same with the death of Sirius. But like a pressure keg, he will eventually explode about it.

I can just about see it really. Harry is sitting near Luna and she is reading the Quibbler. Soemthing about an article about what had happened at the DoM and Sirius. She will read it to him or mention it and he will explode all over the place emotionally, letting it all out and Luna will be there to try to help.

Just an odd notion I have harbored I guess.



S.E. Jones - Jun 25, 2004 10:16 pm (#593 of 2971)

Verbina: I never really noticed that about the wedding pictures. And that lack is very telling!!!

All I have tos say about this is that Peter isn't mentioned in the picture either, by the way. And, Verbina, I love the idea. I got this picture in my head of Lily doing what Hermione did in GoF where she ran between Ron and Harry (though in Lily's case it would be James and Lupin) trying to get them to make up. But this needs to be moved to the 'Parting of the Ways' thread. Can you move your post there, Verbina? I think this is an interesting line of discussion....



Rich - Jun 25, 2004 11:00 pm (#594 of 2971)

In OotP Harry has no problem biting people's head off when he is angry, or overly emotional.

Do you think that in book 6 people who are close to Harry (such as the Order) will be afraid to talk to him properly because they're afraid he will explode and bite their head off?

The likes of Ron and Molly will sit next to him and talk to him very tentatively but never raise the subject of how he is feeling inside. Will it eventually take someone like Hermione - or maybe even McG because she takes no nonsense - to talk some sense into him after seeing how isolated he is, and tell him to share his thoughts/feelings?

If people are scared of Harry exploding and are not talking to him will this lead to him feeling somewhat alienated?



Kevin Griffin - Jun 26, 2004 5:35 am (#595 of 2971)

I think that Harry will settle down in book 6. In OotP harry had to deal with being shut out, and not given answers to his many questions. That would drive anyone to be short tempered. But I think that now that DD has layied it out to him what must be done..he will settle down. He will have a focus now for everything, even his anger. He will step up to the plate.



Green Eyes - Jun 26, 2004 5:44 am (#596 of 2971)

Who knows what will happen...but I see Harry, of course blaming himself for what happened to Sirius. He will hesitate to talk to Ron and Hermione because he frequently tries to avoid telling them how he feels about alot of things and when he does finally vent he tends to do it in anger almost daring them to hate him. I think he thinks that people will abandon him and he's afraid.

One scenario that might be interesting would be if Ginny approached Harry...she knows what it is to feel guilty (diary/chamber etc.) and perhaps she would be able to draw him out as she did in the library in OOTP. She's the one person who can understand what he's feeling...being manipulated by Voldemort and his allies. It would also allow us to see them actually have a conversation about it. Perhaps then he'd be more at ease talking to Ron and Hermione having gone through it once with Ginny.



Verbina - Jun 26, 2004 6:26 am (#597 of 2971)

SE Jones. Sure I can move it. No problem. Or at least copy that section and move it to the parting thread.



Day - Jun 26, 2004 11:25 am (#598 of 2971)

That makes sense, Green Eyes. Harry felt more at ease talking about what happened at the Graveyard after he taked to Dumbledore. It would stand to reason that getting it out once would make it easier to tell again. You have a point about Ginny being the one he'll talk to. I supppose it depends on what topic he wants to cover first. The whole Voldemort-Prophesy thing or Sirius' death. I think Ginny would be a good guess with the Dark Lord stuff, but as for Sirius I still feel Lupin would be the better choice.



Ff3girl - Jun 26, 2004 3:59 pm (#599 of 2971)

Well, I still think that Hermione and Ron are going to the ones who he talks to first about the prophesy and about Sirius. I mean, they're his best friends, aren't they? It makes the most sense to me...

Hey, wouldn't it be a strange twist if he ended up talking with Petunia about them first if he could actually get her to discuss the wizarding world with him?! I could even imagine him yelling something like... "You think you got it hard?! You don't know the half of it!" Hm...



Day - Jun 27, 2004 5:01 am (#600 of 2971)

Ff3girl, That would, indeed, be strange! :-)



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Accio Book Six - Jun 27, 2004 10:58 am (#601 of 2971)

I think who Harry talks to first will have to do with who the first person he trusts that he comes into contact with. If it's Lupin, it will be Lupin. If it is R/H, then he'll go to them...



Verbina - Jun 27, 2004 8:14 pm (#602 of 2971)

But Harry already had the opportunity to talk to them. In fact, they seemed to want him to talk. At least Hermione did. Hagrid tried as well. To no avail. The only one that got him to talk even just a little bit about it was Luna. Yes, it was just a tiny bit but...I think his not wanting to talk to Ron or Hermione or even Hagrid about it...it's sort of telling. Harry has more friends now that may be able to rely on in different situations as each will see things differently and be able to help him in different ways.

Of course, though, that is just about the death of Sirius. The prophecy...I think he will say nothing to anyone about it until he feels he has to. And then...then it would be Lupin I think since he knows about it already and may be able to help him find some answers.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 28, 2004 3:07 am (#603 of 2971)

Concerning the wedding photo. Wasn't Sirius James's best man? If so this would make it natural for a photo without either Remus or Peter.



S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 7:14 am (#604 of 2971)

Phelim, I think the discussion has been moved to the 'Parting of the Ways' thread. If not, it should be moved there.

Thanks!



freshwater - Jun 28, 2004 8:57 am (#605 of 2971)
Edited Jun 28, 2004 10:00 am

Earlier, rich wrote: In OotP Harry has no problem biting people's head off when he is angry, or overly emotional. Do you think that in book 6 people who are close to Harry (such as the Order) will be afraid to talk to him properly because they're afraid he will explode and bite their head off?

I think that's very likely, rich. Also, in my own experiences of grief, I found it was difficult to talk about it to people who had not experienced anything like it. I sought out people who, even if very different from me in every other way, had that grief experience in common...it was the unspoken foundation that let all of the other words come out. Sooooo.....

I agree with green eyes, who wrote: One scenario that might be interesting would be if Ginny approached Harry...she knows what it is to feel guilty (diary/chamber etc.) and perhaps she would be able to draw him out as she did in the library in OOTP. She's the one person who can understand what he's feeling...being manipulated by Voldemort and his allies.

One the Ginny thread, I just mentioned that, while Hermione seems to show awareness of Harry's thoughts and thinking processes, it is Ginny who seems more aware of Harry's emotional state and needs, as in when he wants to talk to Sirius about the pensieve.



S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 9:05 am (#606 of 2971)

I can see the same thing happening with Lupin, Freshwater. Lupin knows what it is to carry the burden of guilt (though he often blames himself for things as more a character flaw, I think). Plus, he shares Harry's loss, unlike Harry's other friends. Lupin was about as close to Sirius as Harry was and I can see that shared grief bringing them closer and Lupin using that bridge to get Harry to open up and express some of the emotions boiling up inside of him so he can grieve openly and start to recover a little....



Accio Book Six - Jun 28, 2004 6:27 pm (#607 of 2971)

I agree. Lupin will help Harry to be the mature character I believe Harry will be in book six by way of some revalation or something. Harry will probably have a bit of a relationship with Lupin and one day he'll just 'get it' and grow up and get focussed. Then he'll be able to talk to his friends, but that's if he doesn't feel a bit... beyond them. I hope Harry doesn't feel he can't relate to his friends anymore, or thinks himself above their help.



Ff3girl - Jun 28, 2004 6:47 pm (#608 of 2971)

Oh, that would be so sad if he never told Ron and Hermione... but I could kind of picture it! I can definitely imagine him thinking, "There's no point freaking them out over something they can do nothing about. No point making two other people bear the weight of the world on their shoulders."

Maybe he doesn't want to see what their reaction would be.

And really, how would any person react to hearing that one of their best friends was the savior of the world? He's already worldly famous as the boy who lived, but this would be so different. Its one thing to know that your friend has survived a terrible ordeal, its another to know that they have to go through it again and either be the killer or killed...

Poor, poor Harry.



Verbina - Jun 28, 2004 10:06 pm (#609 of 2971)

Can you imagine what Hermione's reaction would be to that? She doesn't like Trelawny anyway and to find out that this Prophecy came from her would only make Hermione dead set against it. She would constantly be trying to talk him out of things. Okay...she does that now...but it would only be worse if Hermione knew.



S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 10:10 pm (#610 of 2971)

I don't know about that, Verbina. Hermione seemed to do a complete 180 on the issue of Divination. She believes in prophecies in general now, even though Ron doesn't. She said so at the end of OotP. She may change her mind about Trewlany if given proof that she can, indeed, make real prophecies, on the rare occasion. Ron, on the other hand, will be much harder to convince....



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 29, 2004 1:39 am (#611 of 2971)

I'm not so sure that Hermione has done a 180 on divination, but recognises that there is such a thing as prophecy. But as any further comments are more suitable for another thread or too religios in nature I'll leave it there.

As long as Harry doesn't use tea leaves to try and work out what to do, then Hermione will be fine.



septentrion - Jun 29, 2004 2:29 am (#612 of 2971)

wouldn't it be a mistake from Harry to let his friends in darkness ? DD did so with Harry and we know the result. If Hermione and Ron don't know what's at stake, that could lead to other mistakes. I hope Harry will realise this.



Kevin Griffin - Jun 29, 2004 5:35 am (#613 of 2971) Reply
Edited by megfox Jun 29, 2004 10:22 am

I understand what everyone is saying with the last couple of post, but the secret of the prophecy, is that dumbledore cannot defeat voldemort. Harry must not tell anyone about it. Dumbledore has worked hard to keep this from everyone. If voldemort knew this the order would lose a huge tactical advantage, not to mention throw the wizarding world upside down in knowing that the one they consider the greatest living wizard cannot defeat him, there would be panic everywhere. The longer voldemort fears dumbledore the better it is for harry and friends. He is likely going to be more cautious going up against dumbledore, not to mention it is probably one of the only reasons he never openly attacked hogwarts.

(Edit: Kevin, I went back and edited your post so it wouldn't show up in italics. That happens when you start a sentence with "I", but don't capitalize it.)



freshwater - Jun 29, 2004 6:29 am (#614 of 2971)

Hmmmm....good point there, Kevin. That is definately the flip side of the coin.



JasonS - Jun 29, 2004 7:08 pm (#615 of 2971)

Hey all, I am rereading CoS (again) after JKR's news yesterday and I noticed something that has intrigued me. I am not sure if this is the best thread, if not please tell me.

I think Dobby and Harry are both very similar. They both have green eyes, hated the families they were stuck with, maybe more powerful than they reailize, extremely loyal to friends. Dobby has always been one of my favorite characters and I really like the relationship between Dobby and Harry.

Do you think there might be some significance, I was really taken aback by both having green eyes. I always jumped over that part about Dobby, but so many people talk about Harry's eyes and their significance, even Ms. Rowling has commented about Harry's eyes being important. J



total hatred - Jun 30, 2004 12:33 am (#616 of 2971) Reply
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 30, 2004 2:14 am

I agree with you. In a way, Harry and Dobby are similar. as if their lives are joined in a single thread.

I also noticed Winky is much similar to Hermione. Both are hard headed and they lives on law and order where in Harry and Dobby is chaotic.

->Please use Hermione's full name or the shortened "Hermy" given in OotP so our members who don't use English as a first language can better understand your post. If you're going to use something else, please show the full name with the abbreviation in parenthesis first so that others know to whom you are referring. Thanks!<- SE Jones



Verbina - Jun 30, 2004 7:56 pm (#617 of 2971)

I have to admit that I always wondered about Dobby. JKR once said somewhere (where I cannot recall) that something in CoS, something small, would be important. Then a friend of mine said that Dobby was small, as a joke but...there could be something to Dobby being important. In fact...he has been in every book since CoS in some way and he always has something to do with something important!



JasonS - Jul 1, 2004 8:46 am (#618 of 2971)

Another similarity is how important clothes are to the both of them. Growing up Harry never had his own clothes, just old clothes of Dudders, it was only after he was "released" from the Dursley's that he got his own clothes that fit. Clothes represent freedom to Dobby and happiness. Look at socks for the both of them, mentioned frequently.



sere35 - Jul 2, 2004 8:42 pm (#619 of 2971)

Dobby has to be one of my favourite characters. I have always hoped Dobby would leave hogwarts and become Harry's house elf.



StareyedSlytherin - Jul 2, 2004 9:56 pm (#620 of 2971)

I have to say that that's a hope of mine too. After all he's been through/going to go through in the series, Harry could at least use a good loyal house elf in the end^_^



haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 9:50 am (#621 of 2971)

We were talking about how vicious Umbridge was to Harry - the blood pen and scarring.

Did the murtlap heal Harry or just help with the pain? My real question is how long will he have that scar on his hand?



Hollywand - Jul 3, 2004 9:23 pm (#622 of 2971)

Hello, a question to the Chorus: Harry's patronus is a stag, as we all know. An older name for a stag is a hart, an interesting pun since Harry is all about the heart, yes? Hart and Hounds (Sirius) are usually typical enemies, the hounds tearing up the harts in traditional depictions. Any thoughts? Methinks Sirius a Slytherin, surely, yes, and James a Gryffindor? I've not noticed this detail mentioned. Thanks!



Chris. - Jul 3, 2004 9:31 pm (#623 of 2971)
Edited Jul 3, 2004 10:32 pm

Methinks Sirius a Slytherin, surely, yes, and James a Gryffindor?-Hollywand.

Yes, James was a Gryffindor but Sirius was one too.

Sirius Riddle:What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling herself!
JKR replies:This is JK herself saying that they were indeed in Gryffindor!(Book Day chat, March 2004)

The asker of the question repeats "Remus Lupin" twice instead of mentioning Peter Pettigrew but I think JKR took it as all the Marauders.

It seems that JKR, like in many other aspects of legends she uses, broke the trend. Nice reasoning though.



StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 10:54 pm (#624 of 2971)

I've thought about the hart thing before, and it is interesting. ^_^ Would be nice to do some research maybe and see if there's any more of a connection between them-Harry and the stag [hart]?

I've always thought of the Marauders as all being from the same house from the first mention of them in the books. I think it's just because they seemed to be such close friends.



Sir Tornado - Jul 3, 2004 10:56 pm (#625 of 2971)

Did the murtlap heal Harry or just help with the pain? My real question is how long will he have that scar on his hand?-- haymoni.

I guess till the end of the series. I think that scar might have a purpose later, of inspiring him to fight injustice.

A question from me: Why is JKR so fond of scars?



S.E. Jones - Jul 3, 2004 11:29 pm (#626 of 2971)

Tornedo: A question from me: Why is JKR so fond of scars?

Because scars are permanent reminders. They allow you to remember an moment in time, a feeling, someone associated with the injury, etc. I think it is tied to that old adage "out of sight and out of mind". Scars are always there and so you always remember how you got them, usually in detail. Plus, it works well with imagery. I mean, you have an actual physical thing that represents some strife the character has gone through; it's something others can see and the character may not be able to hide as they can emotional and mental scars....



Dumbledore - Jul 4, 2004 9:40 am (#627 of 2971)

Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but do we know if Harry was actually born at Godric's Hollow or if he was born somewhere else and his parents went there to hide after Harry was born?



S.E. Jones - Jul 4, 2004 10:53 am (#628 of 2971)

I originally thought that the house at Godric's Hollow was just some sort of safe house where they went into hiding, but after carefully re-reading the books (and considering it for about a year ), I think the house actually belonged to the Potters and they went into hiding by using the Fidelius Charm. Hagrid and Sirius both refer to it as the Potter's house (Hagrid: "He came ter yer house an' - an' -" "...took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even..."; Sirius: "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed...."). Also, Hagrid says in PS that Godric's Hollow was "the village where you was all living" not the villiage where they were hiding or where they had gone into hiding or whatever. Fudge says that Dumbledore told the Potters to go into hiding and their best bet was the Fidelius Charm, and, by the description of the Fidelius Charm, putting it on their house would make their house completely disappear from Voldemort's view. So, I think that they were, indeed, living in Godric's Hollow at the time Harry was an infant and he may very well have been born there....

Just my two knuts on the subject....



Hollywand - Jul 4, 2004 12:07 pm (#629 of 2971)

Just a thought: in Kentucky, a hollow or "holler" (as the locals call it) is a place where no trees grow, an anomoly in the thick forest that is Kentucky. Usually, hollows are sacred areas, where haints and headless horsemen are found. So I imagined Godric's Hollow to be a gap in the trees to muggles, and a wizard village to wizards, a haven.



Sir Tornado - Jul 4, 2004 12:57 pm (#630 of 2971)

Head-less Horsemen? Isn't a headless Horseman connected to some Sleepy Hollow or something? Whoa, I think there might be more to the headless hunt than meets the eye.

--Cheers--



Accio Book Six - Jul 4, 2004 1:17 pm (#631 of 2971)

Well I think we can be very sure that it was at the least, a small villiage. I dont know if it's a wizard's haven, just because they say the only all wizard area is Hogsmeade.

I, too, am fairly sure that Godric's Hollow has been the home of the Potters for generations. I think that we'll be able to go to Godric's hollow one of these days with Harry and maybe learn a lot about him. And it's an interesting idea that maybe the headless hunt haunts the hollow, but I dont' see how it could further the story much... unless they saw first hand what happened that hallowe'en night! I mean, there has to be a reason Nick made such a big deal about the hunt AND that we actually MET the hunters.



Day - Jul 5, 2004 12:35 pm (#632 of 2971)

I don't believe it has ever been addressed by JKR, however, it is widely thought that Godrick Hollow is where the Potters' lived up until the attack.



S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 1:48 pm (#633 of 2971)

I mentioned part of this discussion over on the 'Godric's Hollow' thread. Feel free to come join in!

Now, back to Harry.....



S.E. Jones - Jul 6, 2004 1:06 am (#634 of 2971)

This was originally posted by another member and is being moved here.

Harrys Dreams

Diana LeStrange - Jul 5, 2004 10:16 pm

I have a feeling this will get moved to either Harry or the like, but I thought it a subject of it's own. Of course, if it is already a subject... or fits in a better place, I'm sorry... please direct me to that thread. Here goes... We all know Harrys dreams are interesting. They open up a whole other world. One where he sees into Voldemort and or becomes him. His dreams are a key focus. I recall a very odd placed dream in PoA that really stuck out for me. On pg. 265 its states "He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he cold only catch a glimpse of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and ------- aaaaggggghhhhhhnooooo! He woke up. Well... we know that his dreams are signs of something to come... right? But this was so oddly placed in this story. It meant nothing to the story and really stuck out there. Does anyone have any ideas on what they think this is? A foreshadowing of some sort? Thanks.



spug - Jul 5, 2004 9:56 pm (#635 of 2971)

That had always struck me as odd too.

... walking through a forest... following something silvery-white... heard hooves gathering speed...

When I first read this I thought of the unicorn Harry, Hagrid, Hermione, Neville and Draco were looking for while in detention in the forest. But that was way back in the first book, what importance could it have in the third?

Then I thought of Harry's patronus- a stag, symbolizing his father. Wasn't it described as "silvery-white"? (Sorry if I'm mistaken, I don't have the books handy) And the hooves, too. Maybe it could be foreshadowing of Harry trying to get a glimpse of his dad by the lake. He never did but "Prongs rode again last night", according to Dumbledore (not exact quote, still don't have books Wink). So... maybe?



riddikulus - Jul 5, 2004 10:14 pm (#636 of 2971)

Actually, I thought the hooves to be the centaurs... and the silvery white thing, perhaps a patronus ... but don't know. The thing that struck me as odd... more than the dream, even, was how she just set this right in the middle of the book... without no seemingly obvious reason or outcome. I think it's a foreshadowing, perhaps, of events to come in the next books. She wouldnt just place a dream like that without a reason, i'd suspect.



riddikulus - Jul 5, 2004 10:29 pm (#637 of 2971)

I was thinking further about your suggestion about a foreshadowing of events to come when prongs rides again at the end and maybe it's a dream about that, alone... but then... my thoughts on his dreams, really should be explored even more so. How does Harry have the ability to see events in his dreams that will occur? Is this a simple foreshadowing of the events of this book or something else to come in later books and why can Harry see things in his dreams that will happen?



Chris. - Jul 5, 2004 10:57 pm (#638 of 2971)

In OP, Harry has dreams/connections about the things Voldemort is seeing but in GF, Harry's PoV is from a different angle. Not through Voldemort's eyes but from a full view of Frank Bryce etc. Any ideas? I just found it weird.



septentrion - Jul 6, 2004 1:52 am (#639 of 2971)

I think this has to see with the legilimency/occlumency thing. LV is skilled at legilimency and has passed some of his powers to Harry, so I'm rather sure that Harry will develop that skill too. The dreams he has where he adopts some one else's point of view are foreshadowing his ability IMHO, plus the fact that JKR shows us Harry learning occlumency is a clue for me.

As for the dream with the silvery-white thing, I'm not sure it can be related to legilimency and I don't know what meaning to give it either. I've always interpreted it as a will, need of Harry to see his father. Harry was one year old when his parents died and even if he was a baby, he may have unconsciously stored some memories about them, among them something about his father's animagus. When he learned how to produce a patronus, it made this memory to rise in Harry's brain and it was expressed through a dream because as an unconscious memory, it could'nt be expressed another way.



Chris. - Jul 6, 2004 2:02 am (#640 of 2971)
Edited Jul 6, 2004 3:15 am

He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run and ahead, he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and-(PA, Ch13, P197, UK Edition)

He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white.

Well, are we being led to believe that the forest is the Forbidden Forest?... and the silvery white object could be one of the Headless Hunt. Recently, this has been discussed on the thread about Hollows (Godric's Hollow?) having Headless Horsemen. It could have been Prongs, symolizing however hard Harry tries to get to his parents, it won't work as it's not his destiny to give up and die, it's to fight.



Sir Tornado - Jul 6, 2004 2:19 am (#641 of 2971)

Prongs, the dream is mentioned just before Sirius attacks Ron in the Dormitory, it happens during the night after Ravenclaw match if I'm not mistaken.



Chris. - Jul 6, 2004 2:21 am (#642 of 2971)

Thanks Tornedo, but right after I posted, guess what, I found it!



S.E. Jones - Jul 6, 2004 11:35 pm (#643 of 2971)
Edited Jul 7, 2004 12:36 am

From my post, 513, on this thread:

...his dream with the Patronus and Firebolt: he has the Firebolt over his shoulder while he's chasing the Patronus through the forest to a clearing (which I believe is by the lake). Could this be the clearing where he either sees the Patronus or casts it later? Also, the Patronus is his father's image, he's carrying his godfather's present with him. You could almost argue that he needs his godfather to help him find his father. Of course you could also argue the reverse since white stags are known in legends for leading people who are lost or on quests, that the stag (James) led Harry to Sirius.

I realise that movies aren't canon (they're more like the ultimate fanfiction), but I liked the fact that they switched Harry's prediction for Ron to Ron predicting it for Harry: "you'll suffer, but you'll be happy about it" (paraphrased). Harry goes through quite a bit of suffering, thinking Sirius had backstabbed his parents, listening to his parents being murdered all year, but at the end, he finds the one thing he truely wants (the thing the white stag is leading him to in his dream) - family, in the form of Sirius. Sirius was the next best thing to having his parents back, I think. He is also the first adult we hear Harry refer to as a parent (as in a parental figure to Harry). All the suffering he went through was worth it in PoA to have Sirius at the end, and so he was happy in so many ways.

Personally, I think Harry's dreams are more either a heightened sense of his surroundings (like the way he just knew to stick the basilisk fang through the diary to get rid of Riddle, the way he just knows so many other things that are never quite explained...) or his connection to Voldemort.



Verbina - Jul 8, 2004 4:22 pm (#644 of 2971)

In PS/SS he dreams of Quirels turban on his head telling him to be a Slytherin. Long before he knew that Voldemort was under that turban. As if he knew. But how???

I could buy them being just an unconcious awareness of his surroundings except that when he had that dream...I see nothing pointing to Quirrel in anyway other than he is a bit odd and jumpy. How it would connect to something trying to convince him to go to Slytherin....I am not sure.

Some of his dreams I write off as memories like the flying motorcycle.

His patronus dream...he didn't have a clue that his father had been a stag so...why would he be dreaming of it like that? That isn't a memory and really other than the firebolt and a silvery looking thing, has no connectin to what was happening in his life. There is something there we still haven't discovered I think.



S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 5:42 pm (#645 of 2971)

Verbina: I could buy them being just an unconcious awareness of his surroundings except that when he had that dream...I see nothing pointing to Quirrel in anyway other than he is a bit odd and jumpy.

Well, he was looking at the back of Quirrell's head (and it's not just in the movies, Quirrell is next to Snape in the books too) when his scar hurt during the opening feast in PS, so that might be some instincts kicking in to tell him that it was Voldemort, even though he wasn't consciously aware of it. As for the Slytherin thing, again, I think that had to do with the connection with Voldemort. I think this is the same thing that made T M Riddle sound so familiar to Harry....

As to the stag, again, white stags also represent guides for those who are lost or searching, so it might have been that and not his patronus at all....



schoff - Jul 8, 2004 5:46 pm (#646 of 2971)

I assumed it was Voldemort trying to tell Harry to switch to Slytherin. Much like the false memory he implanted on Harry about Sirius in OOP. The link just wasn't as strong because Voldie wasn't full power.



Verbina - Jul 8, 2004 8:48 pm (#647 of 2971)

But the thing he is following, which we figure to be a stag in some form...is described as silvery white. That doesn't exactly lead me to think of ...say the white stag in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.

I'm not really arguing it though. I can see the stag relationship in that. Just being a bit of a devil's advocate.

And yes, Harry was looking in the direction of the back of Quirrels head but not directly at it. He was looking in that general direction, looking at Snape (I believe. Darned movie contamination!) So really, he would have no reason to connect the hurting of the scar to a person he met before and did not have that reaction to...even on a subconcious level.

And I sort of half way suspected that the Slytherin thing was a slight bit of the Voldemort thing...but not so much that his mind was able to sort of try to sway harry's but that part of Voldemort's mind is essentially part of Harry's due to the backfired curse. So part of Harry wanted to go to Slytherin just as part of Harry recognized the name Tom Riddle.



S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 9:13 pm (#648 of 2971)

Our subconscious picks up a lot of stuff that we don't even pick up on in a conscious state, hence the wierd dreams we sometimes get. Harry is a bit unusual in that he seems to know things that he shouldn't with no real explanation (a sort of sixth sense regarding magic, ie knowing how to destroy 16-yr-old Tom Riddle by destroying the diary with the basilisk fang), so I don't find it that odd that his subconscious would also be making links that his conscious mind isn't....



Lord Montemort - Jul 9, 2004 8:47 am (#649 of 2971)
Edited Jul 9, 2004 9:47 am

Maybe Tonks was right in saying "you got a bit a seer blood in your family Harry?" Paraphrased of course, but I think that was the gist of it.



Anna Osipova - Jul 9, 2004 12:14 pm (#650 of 2971)

Oh! I'd just love to see him related to Trelawny! :~D

I mean, I know that that isn't the only family that has Seer blood in it, but wouldn't that be great?



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Verbina - Jul 9, 2004 8:50 pm (#651 of 2971)

Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants?????

I have wondered if maybe there isn't something to Harry having seer blood. The eyes thing with Lily and a fe other odd things here and there. Nothing big though. And he just denied it way too fast....can't toss out the possibility.



haymoni - Jul 10, 2004 2:47 pm (#652 of 2971)

Ron related to Trelawny would be even better!



Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 8:52 pm (#653 of 2971)
Edited Jul 11, 2004 9:52 pm

I second that Verbina, Harry denied seer in his family way too fast to not backfire spectacularly in next books.



Rosebud221 - Jul 12, 2004 9:45 am (#654 of 2971)

Hi, all, first post here. In CoS, Tom Riddle as Tom really isn't Lord Voldemort yet, is he?



Laurelin - Jul 12, 2004 9:57 am (#655 of 2971)

Why do you ask that in the HP-thread? Smile Tom says in CoS: "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT", so yes, he is.



Catherine - Jul 12, 2004 10:04 am (#656 of 2971)

Hi, Sarah Glass! If you haven't already done so, feel free to introduce yourself in the New Member thread.

Your question about Voldemort and Tom Riddle is a good one--there's been LOTS of discussion about that in several threads, notably the Voldemort thread and the Book6 HBP thread. The search function in the tool bar may help you find the posts that deal most specifically with your question, as we probably have a daunting number of posts for a new member to read!



Animagus Anna - Jul 13, 2004 9:18 am (#657 of 2971)
Edited Jul 13, 2004 10:21 am

(This has to do with the above comment about Harry developing the skill as a legitimens...)

I have to agree with Harry being a little more extra sensorially pereceptive. I also think that instead of saying that he will develop the skill as a legitimens I will go as far as saying that he is developing the skill - although he may not know it yet....

I'm re-reading HP and the Philosopher's Stone at the moment and came across these two quotes from the book.

In the 'Stone' chamber with Voldermort:

'Don't be a fool,' snarled the face. 'Better save your own life and join me... or you'll meet the same end as your parents... They died begging for mercy...'

'LIAR!' Harry shouted suddenly.

And then later at the leaving feast after all the new points had been awarded to Gryffindor:

He (Snape) caught Harry's eye and Harry knew at once that Snape's feelings towards him hadn't changed one jot.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 14, 2004 2:20 am (#658 of 2971)

I don't think it took a seer or a legilamas to recognise at the end of Philosopher's Stone that Snape's attitude had not changed towards Harry. Looking at Snape's behaviour that is a no-brainer.

As to Harry's comment when facing Voldemeort, this is probably just a reaction to fear and anger. An impulsive reply to the accusation from a child who wants to believe his parents died heroically.

This is proably the same reason for harry's rapid denial of seer ability. Fear because of what he had seen and felt. I wouldn't be suprised if he did develop seer abilities - notice his accurate prediction concerning Bugbeak in Prisoner. His failure in Order of the Phoenix could have been due to his fear over the dreams.

But would Harry becoming a seer annoy Hermione or Ron most?



Sir Tornado - Jul 14, 2004 2:33 am (#659 of 2971)

I don't think any one would be annoyed. Remember, Hermione and Ron are annoyed because Trelawney is an old fraud. Harry won't be a fraud.



Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 5:00 am (#660 of 2971)

Yes, absolutely, I think Harry might end up as a seer!

This is an edited reposting of a couple of posts from “Cause of the Longbottoms’ Illness thread". S. E. Jones thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion over here, so she asked me to bring it over.

I think Harry is next in line to end up in the mental ward. JKR has made two references to Harry being in a straitjacket (one after the second task [GoF, p.504], one after his vision of Voldie-serpent [OotP, p. 463]), plus that comment of Draco's that his father claimed it was only “a matter of time before the Ministry has him carted off to St. Mungo’s” to “a special ward for people whose brains have been addled by magic.” [OotP, p. 361] Thus Harry is perfectly positioned to find out the truth about the Longbottoms -- if he survives his incarceration, of course. (My husband thinks that's how book 6 is going to end, with Harry being carted off to the mental ward. Certainly the Dursleys would be delighted. Ick.)

In case some of you haven’t found the reference yet, the name of the mental ward, "Janus Thickey", is tucked away one of JKR’s charity books, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. It’s in a footnote in the information about lethifolds (the text starts on p. 25; the footnote is on p. 27). Lethifolds, also known as “living shrouds” (more ‘death eaters’), are shapeless shadows like black cloaks that sneak up on and suffocate their sleeping victims, then digest them in their beds and sneak back out, leaving no sign of their entry. The only spell that works against them is the Patronus charm. Janus Thickey was a man who pretended to have been killed by a lethifold so he could two-time his wife. Janus, by the way, is the Roman god of gates and doors (and interestingly enough, young people just growing up), and is traditionally depicted as having two faces, one looking forward, the other backward.

From the manner of Broderick Bode’s death, there's definitely something two-faced about the ward. But wouldn't that be a convenient way for Voldie to get his hands on Harry -- fake Harry's demise, and leave the Order mourning him and none the wiser...

Here's some sheer speculation. Remember that, from Voldie's point of view, he really needs to get his hands on Harry this year. This is the last full year before Harry turns 17 and can legally use magic outside of school. Also, Harry's made him look bad in front of his followers, and since he controls them by intimidation, that's something Voldemort can't ignore. He's going to be doing everything he can to get Harry under his control. Plus, Harry is now carrying the prophecy around in his head, and the mental ward would be just the place to get it out of his head. As a nasty "coincidence", did you notice what they said they used to "help" the patients? "Intensive remedial potions"! (No, I'm not trying to imply that Snape is involved with this, just that someone else has the same nasty sense of humor.)

Between the increasingly strong effect that Voldemort is having on Harry, Voldemort's awareness of the link between them, and the potential for traitors or friends under the Imperious Curse, I think it would be possible to make Harry look insane before the end of book 6. Voldie has to use the means he has at his disposal, and the hospital is probably one of those means. He needs to get Harry away from Hogwarts. Think of what a challenge that was in GoF!

And this isn't really a "dead horse." In OotP, the Ministry was just trying to make him out a liar. They failed in that, but they started a strong foundation on which to build a case that "poor, noble Harry Potter, having suffered irreversible brain damage as the result of Voldemort's attack on him as an infant, has finally suffered total mental collapse, and will have to be hospitalized for treatment." They haven't used that foundation yet, and I'm sure they will.

Also, remember that, when Ginny Weasley was taken in CoS (p. 293), Professor McGonagall was interrupted when she started to say, "This is the end of Hogwarts. Professor Dumbledore always said..." What did he always say? That it would be the end of Hogwarts when a student was snatched from the school?



S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 1:52 pm (#661 of 2971)

Thanks for moving the discussion, RPS. Okay, I think this is a very interesting, and possible, idea. If Fudge (or even Umbridge) were to be brought before the Wizengamot for any reason (an impeachment of some kind?) he may not want Harry to testify against him. Thus, to save his position, he has Harry carted off to St Mungo's, thus explaining why Harry's stay at Privent Drive is so short this summer. I could definately see a desperate politician pulling something like that, especially if it were Fudge or Umbridge as we've seen the depths they're willing to sink to before. This might even explain why we have a new Minister coming, because the public finds out Fudge try to cart off 'The Boy Who Lived'.



Anna Osipova - Jul 14, 2004 4:49 pm (#662 of 2971)

Wow, I would absolutely hate to see Harry sharing a room with Lockhart, but it does seem plausible. That would answer our question of why JKR brought back Lockhart.

The Dursley's would surely be pleased.

But how would the HBP tie into all this?



S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 6:03 pm (#663 of 2971)

Hm, good question. I guess that would depend whether it (being put in St Mungo's) happened at the beginning or end of the book. If it happened at the beginning, it might have nothing to do with the HBP, but might be a catalyst to start something else off in the story that eventually leads to the story arc involving the HBP. If it happens at the end of the book, the HBP story arc might be realized/conclude with him being carted off.

Any thoughts from anyone else?



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 1:58 am (#664 of 2971)

I'm not sure that the moving of Harry to St Mungo's would work. Fudge has been shown to have been decieving the wizarding world. The Ministry is now seen as untrustworthy. So to lock up the one person with the chance of defeating Voldemort would be seen as the populace as suicide.

This may actually be the tool to bring down the Ministry regieme. Fudge, feeling threatened by Harry, gets him sectioned. The Prophet reports this. Fudge is forced to stand down, and Harry is released to go back to Hogwarts.

I think Harry is going to end up in St Mungo's but not in the ward for the psychologically challenged. Probably injured through a hex or an animal bite during the holiday.



Round Pink Spider - Jul 15, 2004 4:18 am (#665 of 2971)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 5:22 am

I don't think Fudge is going to have anything to do with it now. Fudge is probably going to get thrown out almost immediately, either for incompetence for botching the business with Voldemort, or because his corrupt dealings are going to be exposed. It's the next person we have to watch out for.

Remember that Voldemort is trying to get control of the MoM. There's an old saying, "The cream rises to the top. So does the scum." JKR is basing a lot of her ideas on WWII Germany. The Chancellor of that period (whose name I'm apparently not allowed to put in -- H-T--R) got ELECTED because things were in turmoil and people thought he would make things better. I'm not saying that Volde is going to get elected, but the next Minister is probably going to look OK at first but turn out to be a bad guy.

I meant it literally when I did that "fake press cutting" in my post. I expect the next Minister to be so solicitous of the well-being of our hero, that he's going to "solicit" him right into the hospital "for his own good." Thus, the hospitalization would not happen at the beginning, because it's going to take a while to make Harry look crazy. The soonest I think it could happen would be 2/3 of the way through.

As for the HBP thing, IF the Longbottoms know something, and IF they could communicate it to Harry, I think they could give him a clue as to who it is. But that's just speculation again.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 4:30 am (#666 of 2971)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 5:34 am

You know what, I don't give much to Harry being thrown in St. Mungos by the Ministry. I believe that Ministry will cooperate with Dumbledore and Harry will recieve a hand-written apology from the Minister. The only way Harry is going to be admitted to the Hospital is if something really happens to him, and only if Dumbledore thinks it's safe.

Best regards from the Tornedo.



haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 4:44 am (#667 of 2971)

If Harry was going to be put in St. Mungo's for being "addled", it would have been after his hearing in OotP.

Institutionalizing the Boy Who Lived after it has been proven that he was right all along makes no sense to me.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 5:13 am (#668 of 2971)

Tornedo, haymoni. Well said. I agree. But we don't know who the new minister of magic will be yet and how they will come into power. If it is Lucius Malfoy, wouldn't he want to get revenge?

But seriously, the only way I can see Harry ending up in St Mungo's is through injury.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 5:58 am (#669 of 2971)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 6:59 am

Lucius Malfoy? Lucius Malfoy? Lucius Malfoy? They might as well make Voldemort the minister. No, personally, I guess I'd vote for Ms. Bones if I were a Ministry member.



tracie1976 - Jul 15, 2004 6:16 am (#670 of 2971)

I don't think Harry would be admitted into St. Mungo's. If the Ministry wanted to do that, it would have been better if it happened at the beginning of OotP. They were all saying how crazy Harry and Dumbledore were for saying that Voldemort was back.



Weeny Owl - Jul 15, 2004 9:32 am (#671 of 2971)

Lucius Malfoy is in Azkaban, and even if he escapes or manages to get himself cleared of the charges, after Harry's interview in the Quibbler and after what happened in the Department of Mysteries, I doubt if anyone is going to trust him.

I don't see how Harry being at St. Mungo's would advance the plot unless there is an injury that requires more medical knowledge than Madam Pomfrey has. Perhaps he'll be there eventually to help the Longbottoms, but other than that, how could him being at St. Mungo's at the beginning of the sixth book help things along, or even halfway or two-thirds of the way through?

Harry has to learn Occlumency, for one thing, and he might spend most of the summer at Hogwarts being taught by Dumbledore. He might be at Grimmauld Place for various reasons including Occlumency lessons. Those sound more likely than St. Mungo's.

As for Harry's mental state, I agree with those who said that if something like that had been planned by JKR it would have happened in OotP. Now that the Wizarding World knows Harry was telling the truth all along, he isn't going to be treated the way he was in OotP.



S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 9:53 am (#672 of 2971)

The only way I could see it happening is as a last ditch effort on Fudge or Umbridge's part to stay in power by getting Harry out of the way so he couldn't testify against them in some way. I think it might move the plot along by causing outrage in the populace and being the 'straw that broke the camel's back' with the community who then demand they leave their station, if they don't drive them from office. I can't see it happening at the end of the book, and especially not anywhere in the middle, if at all. It would definately have to drive the plot along, I agree, and so would have to be a catalyst at the beginning of the book not an internal plot point.



haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 10:10 am (#673 of 2971)

Some are speculating that Voldy will try to get Harry at the Dursleys. It is possible that Harry could be hurt and he ends up at St. Mungo's.

This also takes care of that "shortest stay at Privet Drive" business.



S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 10:20 am (#674 of 2971)

My brother's suggestion is that Voldemort will find a way around the protection at Privet Drive, thus Harry's early removal and him not returning for the summer of Book 7..... But how would he get around it?



haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 10:22 am (#675 of 2971)

Harry walks around the neighborhood in OotP - maybe Voldy will get him in that playground.



Weeny Owl - Jul 15, 2004 10:44 am (#676 of 2971)

The only way I could see it happening is as a last ditch effort on Fudge or Umbridge's part to stay in power by getting Harry out of the way so he couldn't testify against them in some way.

Ah... that makes sense, Sarah.

My brother's suggestion is that Voldemort will find a way around the protection at Privet Drive, thus Harry's early removal and him not returning for the summer of Book 7..... But how would he get around it?

The protection from Petunia wouldn't necessarily have to be just Privet Drive. If she's at Grimmauld Place, then it could work just as easily since it's her blood that matters. I'm not sure JKR would have the Dursleys at Grimmauld Place, but it would provide some hilarious moments between the serious ones.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 11:36 am (#677 of 2971)

Hang on a minnute. Why are we assuming that Fudge will be kicked out from office? In fact it'll be wiser to let him stay. It's not nice having a new chief when a war is going on.I think Fudge will stay and listen to Dumbledore. Harry's shortest stay at number 4? Well, I'd say that would be because, well, Vernon would write to DD and request Harry's removal from the house. I know my theory is quite lame, but it might just happen.



haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 11:45 am (#678 of 2971)

I agree - JKR said we would have a new MOM - but she didn't say when. It might not be until Book 7 or even in the Epilogue.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 12:04 pm (#679 of 2971)

By the way, going offtrack a bit, but what's MoM's tenure at the office?



Paulus Maximus - Jul 15, 2004 12:13 pm (#680 of 2971)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 1:15 pm

My brother's suggestion is that Voldemort will find a way around the protection at Privet Drive, thus Harry's early removal and him not returning for the summer of Book 7..... But how would he get around it?

Lily's blood only protects Harry from Voldemort himself, not from the Death Eaters. Voldemort will probably send Death Eaters to kill the Dursleys and try to kill Harry, not knowing that only he himself can kill Harry.

But if the Dursleys are dead, #4 Privet Drive will not protect Harry from Voldemort.



Hollywand - Jul 15, 2004 12:17 pm (#681 of 2971)

Regarding Lilly's blood protection: I think this protection was altered by the blood exchange in the graveyard in the Goblet of Fire. Voldemort even touches Harry, if I remember correctly. So watch out Petunia, you are now a spare.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 12:29 pm (#682 of 2971)

Lily's blood only protects Harry from Voldemort himself, not from the Death Eaters. Voldemort will probably send Death Eaters to kill the Dursleys and try to kill Harry, not knowing that only he himself can kill Harry. --Paulus Maximus

That's not true, In OotP, Vernon tries to strangle Harry and feels jumps backwards as if he he's recieved an electric shock. If the protection works against Vernon, it can work against DEs.



S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 2:22 pm (#683 of 2971)

Yes, Lily's blood protects Harry from more than just Voldemort. He says "not even I can touch him while he's there" (or something very close to that) in GoF so that would include the DEs.

Tornedo: Why are we assuming that Fudge will be kicked out from office? In fact it'll be wiser to let him stay. It's not nice having a new chief when a war is going on.

I agree that Dumbledore wouldn't want Fudge out, just yet. That's why I was suggesting that Fudge, being the overly paranoid person he is, might try to hold onto his post too strongly and get the people to turn against him and run him out, whether Dumbledore likes it or not.....



Czarina II - Jul 15, 2004 2:55 pm (#684 of 2971)

Regarding the fact that Fudge might be kept in office to fight the war: Chamberlain was replaced by Churchill at the beginning of WWII. It turned out to be a wise decision. It is perfectly logical that if the Wizengamot thinks that Fudge is incapable of handling the situation (he certainly fumbled in OoP and even before that with Sirius), Fudge will be replaced.



riddikulus - Jul 15, 2004 4:46 pm (#685 of 2971)

I agree. And, I am under the delusion that good always wins against evil... therefore I see the next minister being Arthur. I think that Fudge will be one of the first people to die at Voldys wand tips. When looking for a replacement, I don't see them going outside of the ministry... although my brother would put Malfoy in there, readily. It's obvious Harry will go through a lot in the coming books and will get injured... but I think it's others that will face very serious or life threatening injuries that will affect Harry even more than his own.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 15, 2004 5:07 pm (#686 of 2971)

Vernon tries to strangle Harry and feels jumps backwards as if he he's recieved an electric shock.

Which might have had nothing to do with the blood protection at all. Harry has been bullied and tormented before, and I very much doubt that every instance of his use of magic prior to school could be attributed to the blood protection.

Anyway, we'll find out soon enough whether Privet Drive is protected from the Death Eaters (or even Voldemort now that Lily's blood flows in his veins...)



Courtney22 - Jul 15, 2004 7:01 pm (#687 of 2971)

I was under the impression that Vernon stopped strangling Harry because Harry was outside in and the neighbors might see Vernon acting unusual. After all the most important thing to Vernon is keeping up a normal appearance. But re reading that passage I'm not sure.



Julia. - Jul 15, 2004 8:57 pm (#688 of 2971)

If I may chim in...I though Vernon stoped strangeling Harry because of some sort of protection he has, likely that which he gets from Petunia. "Then, as the pain in the top of Harry's head giave a particularly nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had recieved an electirc shock--some invisible force seemed to have surged though his nephew, making him impossible to hold." (OoP ch 1, pg 5, US)

On how Voldemort would get around the protection on Privet Drive, as far as I know, the protection is only for Harry, not Privet Drive itself. If the Dursleys moved to London, Privet Drive would not be protected. Also, I'm not sure if the protection extends to the Dursleys. I would think that the Lily blood protection does not. It protects Harry in the place where his mother's blood dwels, not his mother's blood. Dumbledore may have put some protection on the Dursley family as part of the deal allowing Harry to live there. If he did not place extra protection on them, and Lily's blood protection does not extend to the Dursley family, then Voldie could just apperait into the Dursley's front room and AK them all.

Wow, why do I get the feeling that was a lot longer than it needed to be?



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 11:37 pm (#689 of 2971)

Thanks for the quote Julia.



Ladybug220 - Jul 16, 2004 4:39 am (#690 of 2971)

I had assume that it wasn't from the protection of Petunia that Uncle Vernon let go but rather emotional magic from Harry. Harry had a very emotionally turbulent summer so those feelings would be hovering just below the surface, ready to explode at the very slightest provocation.



Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2004 10:41 am (#691 of 2971)

I agree that it might be more emotional magic that made Vernon let go of Harry.

As for Privet Drive and Harry's protection, in GoF (Chapter 33, The Death Eaters, Scholastic edition, page 657), Voldemort says, "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care." If the protection has to do with Petunia's blood, then perhaps wherever Petunia is, Harry is safe from Voldemort. If this protection is only Voldemort-related and doesn't affect the Death Eaters, then an attack on the Dursleys might be why it's Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive.

It's all speculation, of course, and there are dozens of reasons Harry could leave early, but I do think it's a possibility.



Julia. - Jul 16, 2004 12:58 pm (#692 of 2971)

If this protection is only Voldemort-related and doesn't affect the Death Eaters, then an attack on the Dursleys might be why it's Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive.

I've thought about that too Weeny Owl. But the quote you sited continues. "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there." (GoF ch. 33 pg. 657 US) (underline mine) Use of the word "even" makes me think that no one can touch him there, the protection is not specific to Voldemort, IMHO.



Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 7:34 pm (#693 of 2971)

I agree with Julia.



Chris. - Jul 16, 2004 7:36 pm (#694 of 2971)

Maybe it means that the power of Harry's protection that Voldemort, who thinks himself a very powerful wizard, knows that not even the most powerful wizards can break it.



Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 8:05 pm (#695 of 2971)

I agree with Prongs.



Weeny Owl - Jul 17, 2004 1:11 am (#696 of 2971)

You're certainly agreeable, Tornedo.

That's an excellent point, Julia, although I would like something to happen to where the Dursleys have to be at Grimmauld Place. Harry would have plenty of distractions from his grief over Sirius after Fred and George tormented Dudley for a bit.



Round Pink Spider - Jul 17, 2004 3:19 am (#697 of 2971)

I could imagine DEs trying to kidnap some member of the Dursley family in order to blackmail Harry into leaving the house... then the Order would have to take the lot of them into protective custody. That would do it! :-)



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 3:53 am (#698 of 2971)

You're certainly agreeable, Tornedo. --Weeny Owl.

I agree with Weeny.

Spider; why do DEs need to kidnap the Dursley? A simple threat could suffice. BTW, the Voldemort can't touch Harry. Fine. But can't he come to #4 and simply AK Harry. That way, he won't need to touch Harry.



vball man - Jul 17, 2004 5:56 am (#699 of 2971)

I'm at work now - no books with me today. I think that in DD's office at the end of OoP, DD addresses this. He says that Harry had to go back to Privet for protection from DE's as well as Vol.

I'll find the quote later - if no one else does.



haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 10:39 am (#700 of 2971)

Depending on Harry's mood, kidnapping a Dursley may get Voldy nowhere!

Go ahead - take 'em all!

I suppose he might feel sorry for Petunia having realized that she is his mother's sister. And he might be curious enough to save Dudley after the dementor attack.

But if Voldy takes Vernon...



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