Still Unanswered Questions

Page 5 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 pm

OK, I'll tackle some of these... 

The corned beef sandwiches are introduced to show us that the Weasleys are not a wealthy family. The reader is just getting to know Ron for the first time, so this detail gives us important information. However, we don't need it to be reinforced on every train trip, or by every Weasley. There are plenty of other hints throughout the books of the financial situation of the Weasleys, so I guess JKR didn't feel it was necessary to tell us more about the Weasley sandwiches. I can't remember if sandwiches were mentioned in COS when Harry and Ron flew the car to school. I don't think they were, because they were hungry, having just toffees to eat, which made them thirsty. So presumably Molly still had the sandwiches, ready to hand out to each child as they got on the train. I'm sure in years gone by, these kinds of questions could have spawned complicated theories about the significance of corned beef, or the fact that Molly forgot Ron didn't like it (in fact I think I remember reading a theory that Molly was really Hermione from the future in disguise or something like that, because Ron's real mother would remember he didn't like corned beef!)  


A voice echoed through the train: ‘We will be reaching Hogwarts in five minutes’ time. Please leave your luggage on the train, it will be taken to the school separately.’

We only hear this announcement in the first book (I think). Shouldn’t it be repeated every year for the benefit of the new first year students?

Likewise, this wasn't only for the benefit of the first years, but also for us readers who would otherwise be posting questions in 'unanswered questions' threads asking how the luggage got to the castle. We don't need this announcement every year, so JKR left it out of subsequent books. More to the point, where did Harry get his trunk from? It wasn't on the list of requirements, and who has a trunk lying around these days? Wouldn't Muggle-borns (and Harry who lived with Muggles) be more likely to turn up with a regular suitcase, probably one on wheels to make it more maneuverable?

I agree that the School Song was designed to show us the quirky side of the wizarding world. We get much more serious information from the Sorting Hat, so this one is just for fun. I know I've read something in a fan theory about the School Song only being sung in certain circumstances, but I can't remember what it was about. I'll have to see if I can find it.

Edit: I found this on the Lexicon:
The school song is not sung every year. In times of crisis, Dumbledore does not include the song in the opening festivities. With the rise of Voldemort in the mid-1990s [c. Y15], the song has not been sung recently (JKR).

The (JKR) is a link to a page about JKR's (old) website, so presumably she said something on there about the school song. However, since the website is not there anymore, we can't check. It's a shame, that was such a great website.  

_________________
We do not need magic to change the world, we carry all the power we need inside ourselves already: we have the power to imagine better.
J.K. Rowling
avatar
Verity Weasley
N.E.W.T.

Posts : 4419
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 47
Location : Thailand

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:32 am

She must have gotten money from his vault to purchase his school supplies, but there’s nothing said about him giving her the key. And if he had given her his key, would the goblins have let someone take money out of someone else’s vault just because they had the key? What if the key was stolen?
Harry may easily have given her the key without this detail being mentioned in the book. Having his key, she didn't need his wand as wands are for identification, and Molly needed to identify herself, not Harry. As for proving that she had not stolen the key, I suppose Harry could give her some official written permission to use the key and take out a certain amount of money from his vault. There may be an official (and magical) Gringotts form to do this (I suppose it must be magical to prevent forgery), which Bill may have been able to get for them, or perhaps you can get it by means of the Floo Network directly from Gringotts. Then Harry just had to fill this form and give Molly the key, who would then have to identify herself only.

Hagrid, too, was able to pick up the Philosopher's Stone from Gringotts, from a vault which can't have been his. He didn't show any official forms to the Goblins, but Dumbledore must have previously arranged for him to be given the Stone - here probably more security measures were involved than in the case of Harry's money.

Dumbledore having Harry's key is more interesting. Perhaps he was a sort of officially appointed guardian of Harry in the wizarding world (appointed after the Potter parents' death), which explains why he was able to make the decision to leave Harry with his Muggle relatives, and that could also mean that he would be the person to safeguard baby Harry's financial interests in the wizarding world, which included safeguarding his Gringotts key as soon as the key was recovered after the tragedy. It may have been with someone like Remus or in Sirius's house (Remus may have had access to it there or the house may have been searched by the aurors and they may have found it and identified it as the Potters' key) or under the ruins.

Speaking of Gringotts, what seems really interesting to me is how in PoA Sirius managed to get money to buy the Firebolt for Harry. I know Crookshanks helped him, but could Crookshanks go to the bank and take out money from his vault as well? Or was there any money hidden in Sirius's house that was still there after all those years so he could go back to get it? Or did Kreacher bring it to him?

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:00 pm

I agree that we can just assume that Ron had sandwiches every year on the train even if it is not mentioned, and the voice on the  train could be there, too. It would have become boring if all the small details had been repeated in every book, besides the books were getting longer and longer even without that. Perhaps the school song, too, was sung a few more times. In CoS, Harry and Ron entirely missed the Welcome Feast, while in POA, the focus is on how the Trio hurried to Hagrid at the end of the dinner to congratulate him on his new position. The song may or may not have been sung, we don't actually know. Alternatively, we can assume that the other teachers had finally managed to persuade Dumbledore not to make the school sing that stupid song. In PS, they are certainly not happy about having to sing it. In GoF, the news of the Triwizard Tournament was announced at the dinner, and it must have put the song out of everyone's mind anyway, while in OotP and HBP Dumbledore may not have been in the mood for singing.

I still wonder how poor the Weasleys exactly were and why. Was it usual for Ministry employees to be underpaid or was it only the fact that the Weasleys had so many children that made it so difficult for them to manage? Or was their "poverty" only a way of careful economizing? I know they had little money at Gringotts, so they must have spent most of their income, but they did have all the essential things, didn't they, even if not the most expensive and newest things? I mean taking sandwiches on the train journey is clearly cheaper than buying sweets on the train, but it is probably healthier and more nutritious as well. Ron did have a lot of second-hand things, and that was again clearly a way of economizing, but does that mean that the Weasleys were poor or just that they didn't consider themselves rich enough to throw away things that could still be used in the family? When they won a lot of money, they spent it on a journey to Egypt - that doesn't sound like something a desperately poor family would be likely to do.

Also, Ministry jobs seem quite prestigious in the wizarding world, otherwise people like Percy wouldn't want one so much, and Ministry employees do not usually strike me as poor, although, of course, we don't know about the others as much as we know about the Weasleys. Then how about Hogwarts teachers? Hogwarts is a Ministry institution - does it pay to be a teacher there? Admittedly, Howarts teachers don't seem to have families, so they can't be compared to Mr Weasley, but still...

Whe have very few hints in this respect: We know that being a Hogwarts teacher is better than being unemployed (cf. Lupin). We know that Slughorn wanted a pay rise - but he seemed quite well off anyway. Then again we know he used his influence to obtain all sorts of material privileges on top of his salary. We see Snape's home at Spinner's End and it could be a poor person's home with the threadbare sofa and other things except for all those books, which must have cost a lot of money. But then we can also suspect that Snape may not have cared much for his childhood home and the place may have been neglected simply because Snape took no interest in doing it up - after all, he lived most of the time at Hogwarts.

And Voldemort? He used Bella's vault at Gringotts presumably because he had no vault of his own. But why? And what did he live on in the first place? If he was able to live without working and even to rule wizarding Britain for a while, why could he not acquire a Gringotts vault and some money to go with it? Or did he use Bella's money as well as her vault?

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Choices on Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:58 pm

I am probably wrong, but I always thought Voldemort didn't have a vault because it would be dangerous for him to go to Gringotts to open/rent a vault. He was, after all, a wanted wizard.  
avatar
Choices
Seventh Year
Seventh Year

Posts : 5104
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 74
Location : Mobile, Alabama

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:10 pm

Yes, definitely, but only until he seized power in DH. After that, it is strange that he used Bella's vault instead of acquiring one of his own. He kept a Horcrux in Bellatrix's vault and it meant Bellatrix had access to it, too, unless Bella had handed over her key to him. Actually I can imagine Bella giving up her vault and her wealth to serve her beloved Dark Lord. (Voldemort could repay her by giving her access to the Malfoy vault instead. Lucius would hardly have had the courage to protest.) In this case, the fact that Hermione wanted to use Bellatrix Lestrange's vault disguised as Bellatrix Lestrange would have created suspicion among the goblins even if they hadn't known that Bella had lost her wand.

I don't know how independent Gringotts remained after Voldemort had seized power. For example, could he force the goblins to open  Harry Potter's vault for him if he wanted to or was there magic that would have prevented him even if the goblins were afraid to defy his wish?

But that could only be during the DH year. What had he lived on before? Bella's money?

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Choices on Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:04 pm

After he rose to power, perhaps he was just too busy to bother with getting a vault. Using Bella's vault worked for him and was a better hiding place for his horcrux than in a vault under his own name.

As the only surviving heir of the Riddles, perhaps he had money of his own that he inherited. Maybe he kept it under his mattress. LOL
avatar
Choices
Seventh Year
Seventh Year

Posts : 5104
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 74
Location : Mobile, Alabama

Back to top Go down

Some Answers

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:59 pm

More to the point, where did Harry get his trunk from? It wasn't on the list of requirements, and who has a trunk lying around these days? Wouldn't Muggle-borns (and Harry who lived with Muggles) be more likely to turn up with a regular suitcase, probably one on wheels to make it more maneuverable?
Why would the Dursleys buy Harry a suitcase, not to speak of a comfortable one with wheels? They probably kept an old trunk (inherited from Vernons grandfather) in the Cupboard under the Stairs, and Harry kept his handed-down clothes and few other possessions in it, because there was neither need nor space for a wardrobe in the closet. Harry just continued to use it.

Concerning Voldemort and Bellatrix’s vault, Voldemort still pretended to be dead in DH. Many wizards didn’t fight against the Ministry’s new policy because they didn’t know that the Dark Lord was behind it. This could not longer work if Voldemort walked publicly into Gringotts to access Tom Riddle’s or any other vault.

What did he live of? Probably just taking whatever he wanted and killing all witnesses.

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Choices on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:09 pm

Why would the Dursleys buy Harry a suitcase......to get rid of him. (They would have bought Harry a car if they thought he would get in it and drive out of their lives forever. LOL) I think they would have thought it a good deal to get him a suitcase if he would go away for 9 months out of the year!
avatar
Choices
Seventh Year
Seventh Year

Posts : 5104
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 74
Location : Mobile, Alabama

Back to top Go down

... to get rid of him

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:47 pm

This is true, but obviously the Dursleys could get rid of Harry without buying him a suitcase.

On another note, concerning a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] we had in July, I found something in the Lexicon’s "Edits and changes to the text":

OP: Harry shared a compartment with Ginny, Neville, and Luna. Ron and Hermione joined them later. At least two of them travelled backwards, sitting face to face (and knee to knee) to others.
"'We’d better change,' said Hermione at last. She and Ron pinned their prefect badges carefully to their chests."
Something seems to be left out between these two sentences, so we don’t know how the changing into wizard robes was actually done before the prefects pinned the badges to their robes (assuming that this is what happened).
I actually quoted the "edited version", the "original version" (until 2005) was:
"We'd better change," said Hermione at last, and all of them opened their trunks with difficulty and pulled on their school robes. She and Ron pinned their prefect badges carefully to their chests.
 
The "reason for the change" was

, so it was probably "remove hints on changing in front of each other", but we weren’t told this.

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:21 pm

Maybe he kept it under his mattress...
. LOL, that's an interesting image.  

What did he live of? Probably just taking whatever he wanted and killing all witnesses.
That's probable... It's also a sign that should have been a warning to his followers early on.

Concerning Voldemort and Bellatrix’s vault, Voldemort still pretended to be dead in DH.
I don't know. After the Battle of the MOM the papers were full of the news of Voldemort's return. The kind of things that kept happening all over the country (large numbers of Dementors on the loose, mysterious deaths and disappearances, the wizarding world in a general panic etc.) didn't exactly make it easy to return to the earlier policy of secrecy. Then Dumbledore died and the Ministry fell, and Voldemort wasn't afraid of anyone except Harry Potter, and Harry knew that he was alive anyway. Besides, the goblins know how to keep a secret if they must.

I like the idea of an old trunk under the staircase. (I would also like the idea of Lily's old school trunk being inherited by Harry, but it's very improbable that Petunia would have kept such a thing.)

Originally, the Dursleys wanted to send Harry to a local public school. Is it possible that it was a boarding school and Harry would have moved there despite its being local? In that case, he would have needed something like a suitcase or a trunk, and the Dursleys might have given him granddad's old trunk (which no one else wanted) and then it could be taken for granted that Harry would use that even though he was going to a different school now.

Why would the Dursleys buy Harry a suitcase......to get rid of him. (They would have bought Harry a car if they thought he would get in it and drive out of their lives forever. LOL) I think they would have thought it a good deal to get him a suitcase if he would go away for 9 months out of the year!
That's just strange, because the Dursleys don't seem to want to do anything to get rid of Harry although they constantly complain what a burden he is. They don't want Harry to go to Hogwarts in the first place. That's understandable because they don't want a qualified wizard in the family. However, when the Weasleys invite Harry to the Burrow for the summer in GoF, what's Vernon's dilemma? If he let Harry go, he could get rid of the boy immediately, but that would make Harry happy, and that was something Vernon really, really did not want. Sometimes Vernon doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind how much exactly he would be willing to do to get rid of Harry.

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Voldemort’s appearance in DH

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:42 am

It may not have been easy, but Voldemort tried to return to the earlier policy of secrecy anyway. As far as he could control the public media, the Ministry had never fallen, Rufus Scrimgeour had just been replaced by the more suitable Pius Thicknesse, and Dumbledore had probably been murdered by Harry Potter gone mad. Dementors on the loose and other problems all were Fudge and Scrimgeour’s faults, because they hadn’t known how to do their job. Voldemort had never been seen by anybody, with the only exception of this dubious event at the MoM, where hundreds of witches and wizards probably had fallen to an illusion caused by Dumbledore, and so on, and so on,

Don’t forget that there was a reason why Voldemort didn’t become the new Minster for Magic himself (it’s spelled out somewhere in DH, perhaps Remus Lupin says it): There was not much resistance because many witches and wizards who would never have supported Voldemort could still believe (or pretend) that there was nothing to resist to. Harry may have been the only single person Voldemort was afraid of, but Voldemort and the Death Eaters beeing outnumbered by thousands of enemies would have made everything much more difficult.

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:36 am

Why didn’t Voldemort declare himself Minister of Magic?” asked Ron.
Lupin laughed.
“He doesn’t need to, Ron. Effectively, he is the Minister, but why should he sit behind a desk at the Ministry? His puppet, Thicknesse, is taking care of everyday business, leaving Voldemort free to extend his power beyond the Ministry.
“Naturally many people have deduced what has happened: There has been such a dramatic change in Ministry policy in the last few days, and many are whispering that Voldemort must be behind it. However, that is the point: They whisper. They daren’t confide in each other, not knowing whom to trust; they are scared to speak out, in case their suspicions are true and their families are targeted. Yes, Voldemort is playing a very clever game. Declaring himself might have provoked open rebellion: Remaining masked has created confusion, uncertainty, and fear.” (DH)
Lupin here lists two reasons for Voldemort not to come forward: 

1) He is not interested in being the Minister and doing all the Minister's perceived duties - he only wants power.
2) Remaining masked makes him more mysterious, therefore more terrifying.

We can also add a third reason, one that Lupin doesn't know about:

3) Voldemort is looking for the Elder Wand, a quest he can't leave to anyone else (while he is certainly able to leave everyday cruelty to his minions), so he doesn't have time to play the role of the Minister in person. He is planning to obtain the wand, kill Potter and enjoy immortality for the rest of eternity. He firmly believes that no one but Potter has the power to vanquish him, so he doesn't care about the multitudes.

However, he doesn't mean to achieve absolute secrecy: People suspecting what is going on creates more fear than the simple assumption that only Thicknesse is behind it all (which would sooner cause open rebellion, I think). Voldemort doesn't want to be visible, he doesn't want his movements to be known, but he doesn't exactly pretend he is dead. There is a certain level of secrecy, as explained by Lupin only days after the fall of the Ministry (it is probably getting difficult to keep up the secrecy as time goes on), but I don't see why it would stop him from having his own vault at Gringotts (where the goblins are secretive and are afraid of him anyway) when the alternative is to keep his precious soulbit (and the Sword of Gryffindor) in Bella's vault, accessible to her. The only way I can imagine him doing that is by taking absolute possession of the vault and all of its contents so that it belongs to Bella in name only (as the Ministry belongs to Thicknesse in name only).

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

You may be right, Julia

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:36 pm

or I may be able to find other quotes from later in the book, when I find the time to look

Anyway, Voldemort didn’t want to be seen in public, and could he really trust the goblins? Would he trust anybody? Wouldn’t smart persons  who tried to find and destroy a Horcrux look into Voldemort’s vault first? Obviously this vault, or any vault Voldemort had taken possesion of, would be the least safe place to store a Horcrux.

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:27 pm

Quote hunting is exciting.  


Would he trust anybody?
That's precisely what I'm wondering. He seems to trust Bella to a great deal if he gives her access to his Horcrux, even if Bella doesn't know it's a Horcrux. As for the goblins, the problem is that they are at Gringotts anyway - he cannot trust the bank without trusting them

He wouldn't need to be seen in public in order to get a vault at Gringotts. As the wizard effectively ruling the country, he could walk into Gringotts at night after summoning the chief of the goblins and hire a vault without meeting anyone else and under any false name. 


Wouldn’t smart persons [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] who tried to find and destroy a Horcrux look into Voldemort’s vault first? Obviously this vault, or any vault Voldemort had taken possesion of, would be the least safe place to store a Horcrux.
Could any smart person just "look into" someone else's vault at Gringotts with all the security magic in place? Could they look into the vault of the Chief DE when he is the de facto ruler of wizarding Britain? Besides, Voldemort has no idea that anyone has guessed he has Horcruxes until the Trio break into Bella's vault. Voldemort doesn't expect anyone to specifically look for them, he simply wants to guard the objects in question (and in a prominent place) against theft, carelessness or accident.

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

You are right, Julia

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:18 am

But I still don’t see why Voldemort would consider a vault which is known as the place where he stores his dangerous treasures a safer place than any other vault.

He kept the locket in a cave, where it, although this probably was the safest of his hiding places, could still be found by an exploring wizard who overcame the spells. Did he really expect that nobody would ever enter a place he himself had found when he was still a child?

He kept the necklace in the Room of Requirements, where it could be found by everybody who lived at Hogwarts. Did he really believe that he was the only person who would ever enter this room?

He kept the ring in the Gaunt’s house, which wasn’t even a secret place. People knew still that a family had once lived there, why wouldn’t they come to see if something had been left?

Until short before the end, he used Nagini as a weapon and a spy, and she could have been killed on one of these missions.

He had left the diary to Lucius Malfoy, and you may think that he should have learned from this. But Bellatrix is not Lucius and he may still consider her to be more trustworthy. If her vault wasn’t a safer place than Voldemorts vault, then this was only one of many bad decisions he made.

Also, I’m not sure whether summoning the chief of the goblins wouldn’t count as being seen in public (meaning: by somebody who doesn’t already know that Voldemort is back and survives to tell about it).

In OP 5, Bill Weasley tries to convince Ragnok, but the goblins "are not giving anything away yet", and Bill "still can’t work out whether or not they believe he’s back."

In DH 15, Ted Tonks "had the impression the goblins were for You-Know-Who, on the whole." Griphook and Gornuk tell him that he had a false impression and that the goblins don’t take sides in this wizard’s war, but they still don’t actually let out whether they knew that Voldemort is one side in this wizard’s war before they left Gringott’s, learned this later or don’t even believe Ted now. They only admit that they know there is a wizard’s war and that they had to leave Gringotts because they refused the "impertinent requests" of an unnamed authority (probably the Minister for Magic) who attempts to control the bank. So Ted Tonks impression may just come from other goblins not refusing such requests.

Are you sure that Voldemort knows that the chief of the goblins knows that Voldemort is the wizard effectively ruling the country?

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:27 am

I can't be sure, but I do think Voldemort made sure to let all those in positions of power know who is the boss. He replaced leaders he didn't like with those he could - sort of - trust (cf. the Ministry, Hogwarts). In the case of the goblins, who took no sides in the war, it was probably enough to inform them (when and if Voldemort considered it necessary) that when they were dealing with wizard government, they were dealing with him. That probably taught them to respect that government more than simply the name of Pius Thicknesse. The goblins' reluctance to acknowledge what they know about the war or Voldemort (good examples!) is precisely what may have made them "trustworthy" in the eyes of secretive Voldemort. Goblins didn't take sides, nor did they spread information, but they were certainly afraid of Voldemort and wanted to ensure their own safety and survival. As for whether they knew who was behind the changes ... goblins strike me as cunning and calculating. As they deal with money, they must know the value of information and they probably know how to obtain it as well. They realize that it may be a matter of survival to know who is in charge - and it could be equally important not to reveal what they know.

I agree with you that Voldemort did not guard his secrets very successfully. Then again, as long as he thought no one knew he had Horcruxes or what they were, he didn't have much reason to worry about deserted places like the cave or even the Gaunt House. Admittedly, the cave seems the better place of the two, though we don't know what protection he placed on the Gaunt House which Dumbledore had to break. Now, we know that Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort feared (besides Harry), and with good reason... As for the diary, he gambled with it for a purpose, and the Room of Requirement was not absolutely safe either (though you had to know what you were looking for if you wanted to find the diadem). 

The mistakes Voldemort made are discussed often enough in the books. I think Bella's vault instead of his own vault was another mistake. He may not have revealed himself to the chief of the goblins, but I consider it yet another mistake, since his treasure was in their hands anyway. (I don't think he was still pretending to be actually dead, which would have been impossible at that point, even if he remained mysterious, and most of all busy, in the background.) The Trio couldn't have broken into Gringotts without the help of a goblin, and they got that help only because they were able to offer him a particular kind of treasure (which, incidentally, Voldemort believed to be safe in Bella's vault, too.). Also, the goblin had been offended by humans before, so it was also a kind of revenge on his part. (Even so, he tried to make sure that his human accomplices would be caught.) But all the time the goblin knew he was breaking into Bellatrix Lestrange's vault. Would he have had the courage to break into Voldemort's vault as well? It would have counted as a personal attack on the most dangerous dark wizard, and it is at least doubtful that he would have dared to agree to it, even if he had been offered the Sword of Gryffindor.

Then there is also Voldemort's wizard pride, which, according to Dumbledore and Harry, played an important part (perhaps a more important part than safety) in the way he guarded his Horcruxes. He left the ring in the Gaunt House because that was the place of his wizard ancestors and also one of his earliest - perhaps the very first, I'm not sure - murders). The cave was also a place of his early triumphs, so he hid the locket there, making sure that no one, except someone who was ready to kill himself, could obtain it. He hid the diadem in the Room of Requirement, because he considered Hogwarts his birthright (probably on the grounds that he was Slytherin's heir). He also used the diary to reinforce his connection with Salazar Slytherin and his values early on. He left it with Lucius Malfoy at the time when he had no access to Gringotts, and perhaps Lucius was supposed to guard it in his vault, just as Bella was supposed to guard the cup and the sword in her vault, but, as I've said, in those days (during the first war), Voldemort was really in no position to open a vault at Gringotts himself. However, Gringotts is not only a safe place, it is also an iconic place of wizard life and a symbol of a wizard's social position, and it is completely in character with Voldemort to want to have a Horcrux there - and I think it would be in character for him to want a vault of his own as well. Especially after Lucius's failure to safeguard the diary, it is surprising that he continues to trust another of his followers with another Horcrux when he really could have a vault of his own now. But I still find it possible that he simply took possesion of Bella's vault (and key) instead of getting one under his own name (though the chief of the goblins might still have known, LOL). 

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Considering Voldemort’s triumphs

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:06 am

I’m wondering now which victory he celebrated when he preferred Bellatrix’ vault over his own to store a Horcrux in it

Hieronymus Graubart
Second Year
Second Year

Posts : 226
Join date : 2011-03-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:06 pm

First, I'd like to go back and address a couple of things from earlier in the discussion.

Verity wrote:So, someone is patrolling Godrics Hollow and sends word to Dumbledore as soon as they're aware of LV's presence.

1. The 'neighbourhood watch' patrol sends word to Dumbledore of a disturbance in Godrics Hollow.
2. Dumbledore immediately dispatches Fawkes to investigate (why not go in person? perhaps he believed that the Fidelius Charm would keep the Potters safe, and his sudden appearance would only serve to alert LV that he was on the right track)
3. Fawkes arrives in time to witness the murder of Lily and the attempted murder of Harry.
4. Fawkes returns and reports to Dumbledore.
The two problems with this theory are that JKR has told us that DD found out about the attack at GH from the charm he placed on the Potter's house, not from someone else; and that if there had been a patrol (presumably made up of OoP members or other trusted and talented witches/wizards, they would have helped defend the Potters from LV. But we have no evidence of anyone else being there or helping in any way. Too bad; it might have made a difference.

But that does still leave the question of how DD knew about Lily's sacrifice so early on.
------------------------

Julia wrote:..the Dursleys don't seem to want to do anything to get rid of Harry although they constantly complain what a burden he is.
I think the Dursleys are very well aware that as long as Harry can call their house home he is protected from LV and DE's, and by estension they themselves are protected from being tortured for information concerning Harry's whereabouts. They really don't want Harry (or magic) there, but it's in their own best interest to keep him. They would love to have him leave, but their protection would leave with him. So they do complain about him being a burden because they consider him so. But instead of actually getting rid of Harry, they settle for the next best thing--having him gone as much as possible (without making him and other witches/wizards happy by letting him stay with them).
avatar
shepherdess
Head Girl
Head Girl

Posts : 1687
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 62
Location : Oklahoma

http://abetteryou.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:35 am

Voldemort had an agenda. We know he wanted to take over the wizarding world. I don't remember if we're ever told exactly how far he intends to go with his rule--Britain? Europe? Eastern Hemisphere? The world? He was successfully working towards his ultimate goal during his first rise to power, until Harry Potter (or Lily) threw a monkey wrench in the works, causing a major setback.

Several years later and with the help of a couple of his followers, LV had the opportunity to begin his rise to power again. But you don't go from the beginning of a rise to power to ultimate power in the snap of your fingers-even in the wizarding world. It's a process; there are steps to be taken, things to be accomplished, priorities to be set. Some of the things LV needed/wanted to do on the way to his long term goal are:

Get his body back
Gather his supporters
Get rid of DD
Kill HP
Take over the MoM
Take over the media
Recruit new supporters
Teach people to fear/obey him
Obtain the Elder Wand so he can kill HP (added after the graveyard incident)
Protect his horcruxes (added once he found out someone was after them)

Now we can't be sure how he would prioritize the items on the list, and this may not be all of them. But we know he plans on living forever, so not everything has to happen immediately, although I'm sure he'd like to have a comfortable amount of power as soon as possible. Also items can overlap instead of being achieved one at a time. For example, he can have Draco working on getting rid of DD and at the same time have some supporters infiltrating the MoM, some infiltrating the media, and DE's terrorizing people and creating fear and chaos.

LV uses a couple of tools quite effectively. One is confusion and the other is divide and conquer. He causes confusion by making sure there is enough information out there to make some people believe he's back (rumors of sightings, mysterious disappearances and deaths, people suddenly changing things, odd occurances), without undeniable proof that he's back and powerful again. Since most people (not having first hand knowledge) can't be sure what to believe, they become fearful of saying anything to others, not knowing their allegiance.

The result is a division between the hopes of supporters and the fear of the enemies. The supporters become his by choice (usually). The enemies can be conquered by force if necessary.

Even though there are a handful of (non-supporting) people who know first hand that he's back, he doesn't rush to prove them right because that would eliminate the confusion. Maybe one of his goals is to get a vault in Gringotts; but that may be lower on his list of priorities and something he'll get around to in time. Or he may just be waiting til such time as he can take over the entire bank and not be limited to one vault. In the meantime, using Bella's vault is good enough.

As far as who he trusts--he doesn't need to ‘trust’ anyone (as in believing that they’ll be loyal to him of their own free will). He only needs to be sure they will obey him (as in do what they're told out of fear that he’ll kill them and/or their families). Either way they'll do what he wants.
avatar
shepherdess
Head Girl
Head Girl

Posts : 1687
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 62
Location : Oklahoma

http://abetteryou.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:37 am

Shepherdess wrote: They really don't want Harry (or magic) there, but it's in their own best interest to keep him. 
I agree but when I say they don't seem to want to do anything to get rid of Harry, I don't mean getting rid of him forever. It is precisely their reluctance to let Harry visit the Weasleys during the summer holiday that makes me wonder... I know they don't want Harry to be happy, but if he is such a burden to them as they say, they should be equally happy to let him go two weeks earlier than usual. I can understand that they don't want Harry to go to Hogwarts at first, because Harry will improve his magical skills there - but once they have realised that they can't separate Harry from the wizarding world, they could just as well give up trying. 

Oh,well, I know that they are petty and revengeful and stupid, it's just difficult to understand that they are willing to go against their own domestic comfort (as they perceive it) purely out of revenge, when they could have Harry at a comfortable distance (for free) without having to give up the protection he means to them.


As far as who he trusts--he doesn't need to ‘trust’ anyone (as in believing that they’ll be loyal to him of their own free will). 
LV is probably unable to feel real trust and that is reflected in the way he hides most of his horcruxes. He leaves two of them in the hands of his followers though. The diary can be explained - and the cup too, as long as LV has to hide and he actually needs the help of human beings. What I find inconsistent is that he leaves the cup with Bella even when he does not really need to depend on someone else's vault any longer, and even after- as Snape points out - his followers, including Bella, have  proved to be a failure at the Battle of the MOM. He also knows that the diary (which was guarded by another of his followers) has been destroyed.

I also wonder how long that cup may have been in Bella's vault. Voldemort was relatively young when he took it from the rightful owner, so it must have been a long time ago. I'm not sure if he made a horcrux right then (I will check it when I have time), but it was an important object to him anyway and he had to keep it hidden somewhere.

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:28 pm

Maybe the Dursley's aren't sure how much time a person has to spend at a house for it to truly be their home. They could be afraid that, since he's only there for the summers now, if he goes away for part of that time, what's left may not be enough to warrent the protection on their house.

Or maybe Vernon wants to spend as much time as possible forbidding Harry to do magic. If he's out of his sight (and house), Vernon has no control over whether or not he's practicing magic. And we know how much Vernon wants to keep that from happening.

How long the horcrux was in Bella's vault is a good question. During his second rise for power he didn't seem particularly concerned about the safety of his horcruxes; at least not until he realized they were in danger. Seems like he had a lot of confidence in his hiding places. Stupid really, considering every one of them was breached. I can't see why he would have removed that particular one from it's former hiding place and moved it to Bella's vault. Which means it probably had been in there for a long time before his downfall.

And that means he must have had a fair amount of trust in Bellatrix long before she went to Azkaban for him. No wonder she refused to renounce him. It makes one wonder about the extent of their relationship (but I'm not sure we want to go there).
avatar
shepherdess
Head Girl
Head Girl

Posts : 1687
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 62
Location : Oklahoma

http://abetteryou.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:02 pm

I think Bella did love and lust after Voldemort, and I think it is possible that they did have some kind of physical relationship during the first war. Bella craved power, and she was insane in her devotion to him--a perfect combination for Voldemort. After his rebirth in the graveyard, I rather doubt there was enough human in him to lust after a woman ... only after power. Such love as he had was lavished on himself. There really wasn't any admiration left over for anyone else. Of course, this is JM2K.

_________________
"I don't understand this new wave of incredibly good-looking vampires. How can they do their hair and makeup so well when they can't see themselves in the mirror?" -- Mark Trenwith, comedian
avatar
Solitaire
Seventh Year
Seventh Year

Posts : 5482
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 66
Location : California

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:57 am

It's a perfectly possible scenario for Bella and Voldemort... It means Bella must have been disappointed after LV's return. (But perhaps she didn't give up hope that the old relationship might be somehow renewed.)

_________________
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
avatar
Julia H.
Prefect
Prefect

Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:09 pm

I have always seen LV as an asexual being, at least, since his rebirth, if that makes sense. I don't see him as lusting after anything but power, and I sometimes think Bella's ministrations--when things have gone wrong or he is upset--annoy him. I'm not sure why I feel that way ... it's just the way I "hear" the dialogue in my head when I read it. I think LV would much rather use force on an unwilling female (or male?) victim, because it is an issue of power for him. (I'm trying not to use language that is too graphic here, but I think you understand what I mean.)

_________________
"I don't understand this new wave of incredibly good-looking vampires. How can they do their hair and makeup so well when they can't see themselves in the mirror?" -- Mark Trenwith, comedian
avatar
Solitaire
Seventh Year
Seventh Year

Posts : 5482
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 66
Location : California

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:25 pm

Regarding LV's agenda, I found this in HBP:

"The Brockdale bridge - he did it, Prime Minister, he threatened a mass Muggle killing unless I stood aside for him and -" ~Fudge

This was part of Fudge telling the Prime Minister about the things LV had been doing recently. So apparently LV wasn't wasting any time attempting to take over the MoM. That must have been pretty high on his list of priorities.

Then, telling the Prime Minister that he'll keep him informed, Scrimgeour said "I shall probably be too busy to come personally, in which case I shall send Fudge here. He has consented to stay on in an advisory capacity."

So LV asked Fidge to step aside for him and threatened to kill a bunch of Muggles if he didn't. Fudge didn't agree and the Muggles were killed. The wizarding community demanded Fudge step down and he was replaced by Scrimgeour (LV's man). But they kept Fudge on in an advisory capacity. So Fudge couldn't have known Scrimgeour was LV's man.

Just rambling here. heh.
avatar
shepherdess
Head Girl
Head Girl

Posts : 1687
Join date : 2011-02-18
Age : 62
Location : Oklahoma

http://abetteryou.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum