Sybill Trelawney

Sibyll Trelawney

penguin patronus - May 19, 2005 7:08 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:46 am

Well, we all know Trelawney is mysterious. She is a seer after all, and has predicted quite a few important events. I thought this thread would be very interesting. We can talk about Trelawney, divination, the prophecy, all that jazz. So, talk away!

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Earliest MessagesPrevious MessagesAll MessagesOutline (135 previous messages) T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 4:09 am (#136 of 354)

frogface- Malfoy talks a good game, but when it comes down to it he seems to be a coward (not just in HBP, but as far back as PS/SS, going into the forbidden forest). Post Christmas, Malfoy seemed less confident. Wonder if LV paid a holiday visit...

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 6, 2005 11:14 am (#137 of 354)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 12:19 pm

Well, we must keep in mind that Sybil Trelawney doesn't even know she made a prediction about Harry & Voldemort. She wouldn't remember it anyway. She has no recollection of it. We don't know how prophecies work.. we can only guess. Dumbledore told Harry that he never told Sybil what occurred that day. The only thing I could think of would be a memory retrieval that would work in a pensieve, but if Sybil 'recieved' this prophecy (from where?) it perhaps would not be a part of her memory.

I do think Dumbledore keeps her around for her own saftey though.

I wonder how prophecies are recorded in the Ministry of Magic. Do they occur 'magically'? (for example, is the 'prophecy', Sybil's 2'nd propehcy) that only Harry heard recorded there? Or would someone have to 'turn in' the prophecy?

I am guessing it is recorded in a magical way.

Mr. Ollivander... he could have seen the so called, 'writting on the wall' and packed up and left town for parts unknown after what happened to Fortesque.

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Ana Cis - Oct 6, 2005 5:14 pm (#138 of 354)

Rose, this is just a guess: The listener of the prophesy pulls the memory out his/her head and it's put in the magical sphere w/a special spell that allows only those that are referred to within the prophecy to access it.
 

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 6, 2005 5:28 pm (#139 of 354)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 6:30 pm

Ana Cis, Sounds good to me. Especially since the prophecies in the spheres looked like the ones that are described in the pensieve scenes. So, do you think that prophecies such as the one Sybil told Harry would not be in the Hall of Prophices? Because Harry did not tell anyone or pull a memory out to be placed in a crystal sphere. Not only that, but what would the purpose of the sphere's be? I mean, other than plot reasons.

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Ana Cis - Oct 6, 2005 6:15 pm (#140 of 354)

That's a great question Rose. I believe that unless Harry retrieves the memory from his mind, it wouldn’t be recorded in Hall of Prophecies. However, I don't see that it would be necessary since the prophecy was already fulfilled with Wormtail returning to LV and helping him come to power.

 
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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 4:47 am (#141 of 354)

I don't think this has been mentioned in awhile, but earlier there was some comments about Harry leaving Trelawney right outside the Room of Requirement. I was reading that part a couple days ago and I don't think that's where he left her. As I understood it, he left her just around the corner from DD's office.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 4:59 am (#142 of 354)

They were somewhere in between. Trelawney seemed to be, ahhh, under the weather, so progress while conversing with Harry may have been a bit slow. They were just around the corner from DD's corridor. It is hard to know how far from the RoR this is unless there are other references to the proximity of DD's office and the RoR.

DD was looking for a chamber pot one evening...

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 7, 2005 6:03 am (#143 of 354)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 7:32 am

Dumbledore's office (I would imagine this means the base/entryway..and then you go up the spiral staircase), the base of Gryffindor tower/common room, Room of Requirement and the base of the North Tower/Professor Trelawney's office are all on the 7th floor, oh, and also Flitwick's office (thirteenth window from the right of the West tower).

Edited to add: I guess there is some conflicting evidence about exactly where the entrance to Dumbledore's office is, In GoF, ch 28 it is off of the 2nd floor, but in HBP it's base is on the 7th floor. Perhaps there is an entrance to the spiral staircase on each level? Or perhaps it moves? Anyway...it is in one of the towers.


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T Vrana - Oct 13, 2005 6:29 pm (#144 of 354)

Slughorn invites only certain people to his parties. Usually people who have something to offer, fame, talent, power, potential...Why invite Trelawney to his Christmas party?

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valuereflection - Oct 13, 2005 8:42 pm (#145 of 354)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 9:43 pm

Sibyll has a famous relative. She is the great-great-granddaughter of the very famous, very gifted seer Cassandra Trelawney. Slughorn probably views her somewhat like he does Neville: the jury is still out. In other words, he's reserving judgement, yet to see whether she has any of her relative's flair. Or maybe slughorn decided that Sybill does have some of that flair, because she gave a real prophecy of great significance, which was stored by the Ministry of Magic and alluded to in a Daily Prophet article.

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Neville Longbottom - Oct 14, 2005 4:38 am (#146 of 354)

It's also possible that he knew or at least suspected that Sybill made the prophecy.

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 14, 2005 5:08 am (#147 of 354)

Why invite Trelawney to his Christmas party?

I think valuereflection has an excellent point - Slughorn would probably introduce her as "the great-great granddaughter of the famed Cassandra" to his other guests. Additionally, while Slughorn is always selective, I might imagine that for his Christmas party he extended invitations to the staff as a professional courtesy - if nothing else, he would be on the good side of those who enjoyed themselves (or simply appreciated the thought, even if they didn't go), and there are always advantages to that!

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haymoni - Oct 14, 2005 9:22 am (#148 of 354)

I figured he invited a number of fellow teachers.

I wonder which house Sibyll was in?

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positively floating - Oct 21, 2005 3:26 pm (#149 of 354)

Does anyone else think Trelawney was kidnapped?

She wasn't in Dumbledore's funeral (at least that we know). Probably her kidnapping was the real reason Voldemort wanted those Vanishing Cabinets fixed, of course never in his wildest dreams he expected Draco to succeed in killing Dumbledore. So maybe that was the reason to send his Death Eaters into Hogwarts.

With Trelawney Voldemort would finally learn the rest of the prophecy. Wasn't he obsessed about it in the end of OotP? It makes sense he'd try to get it.

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T Vrana - Oct 21, 2005 3:35 pm (#150 of 354)

positively floating- I had asked the same thing. I think it is a real possibility since daddy Malfoy failed to get the prophesy.

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Soul Search - Oct 26, 2005 3:11 pm (#151 of 354)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 4:12 pm

Has Trelawney ever done any magic? Used a wand?

Could she be a squib?

Magic late in life? While she is being held by Voldemort? To help Harry?

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Chemyst - Oct 26, 2005 3:31 pm (#152 of 354)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 4:36 pm

Has Trelawney ever done any magic? Used a wand? - Soul Search
You have to check out I Am Vlad's earlier post.

And Elanor also posted this early in this thread:  I'm reading again GoF, I've just found her doing some magic, in "The dream" chapter. The text says: "She waved her wand and the lamps went out." (p.499). It is not very advanced magic but at least we know she has a wand and can use it.

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T Brightwater - Oct 26, 2005 7:35 pm (#153 of 354)

I'm with those who think that, at the very least, Minerva would have checked on all of her fellow teachers after DD's death.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 26, 2005 10:15 pm (#154 of 354)

Although it would be interesting if Trelawney were taken, I would think it would have been a last minute/afterthought kidnapping. The reason I say this is because when Draco meets up with Dumbledore on the tower, after a few 'pleasantries' Draco tells Dumbledore he has "...a job to do." He doesn't say he succeeded in half his quest, etc.. It also seems that this 'job' is something that Draco has been thinking about for quite some time. He says he has been working on it 'all year' and that he got ideas from Montague's earlier entrapment in one of the vanishing cabinets and ideas about the coins from Hermione.

The necklace and wine were not aimed at Trelawney...and it seems like he could have done that easily enough with a bottle of cooking sherry. I mean, if he went as far as putting an Imperious curse on Rosmerta, I would think that his efforts with Trelawney would have been a little more noticeable.

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T Vrana - Oct 27, 2005 4:07 am (#155 of 354)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 5:07 am

RMS- You may be right, but, Draco is now standing in front of the most powerful wizard ever, and he has to kill him. Whatever else he may have accomplished I'm certain he's overwhelmed with what he has to do right then. He does say "You have no idea what I've done." And he starts to say "...and tonight...", but is cut off . I re-read the tower and there are moments when other info might come out, but the fighting downstairs and DD interrupt. When DD interrupts he turns the conversation to what he knows of Draco's mission, kill DD.

Draco would not have wanted kill Trelawney. He needed the cabinet, in theory , to get her out of the castle, so until that was fixed, he would not have done anything to Trelawney. The wine and necklace could have been Malfoy getting off track, trying to impress.

I'm not completely tied to this theory, but I do think there was more going on than just killing DD.

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 30, 2005 7:57 am (#156 of 354)

I think something more was going on too,T. My question is: Since Voldemort is already after Harry and has been trying to kill him since he was a year old,what is in the prophecy that would be to Voldemorts advantage? I mean, I have heard alot of posters state that the thought of Voldemort getting the prophecy is scary. When Voldemort learns of "the power the Dark Lord knows not" will he be able to guess what this is and prepare for it? Thoughts, please?

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T Vrana - Oct 30, 2005 8:26 am (#157 of 354)

M Pomfrey- I don't think the prophecy will help LV at all. He will not understand or will undervalue what Harry's power is. But, since he's been foiled so many times, he clearly wants to hear it.

I only think the thought of Trelwaney in LV's hands is scary.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 30, 2005 8:34 am (#158 of 354)

Since Big V would never equate love with power, he will think it is something else/more. Perhaps there will be a race to retrieve the remaining horcruxes.

It would be fun to watch him struggle with his attempt to find out what this "weapon" is - sound familiar? This book is getting longer.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 30, 2005 8:57 pm (#159 of 354)

Madame Pomfrey, I have a theory... IF Voldemort were to hear the prophecy... and know that Harry has a 'power the Dark Lord knows not'...I think Voldemort would believe that it was the blood protection Harry had from his mother and that he has overcome that particular 'power the Dark Lord knows not' when he used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony. I think Voldemort would pat himself on the back for his cleverness and become over confident, as all mass murderers do. But I am thinking, and this has to do with the 'glint in Dumbledore's eye' back in GoF, that Dumbledore came up with something (new) that will give Harry a power the Dark Lord knows not ... and it has something to do with that rebirthing ceremony in GoF...something that gave Dumbledore an idea. An idea that he did not tell anyone about. And I think it has something to do with Dumbledore's 'death'. Real or faked.

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 31, 2005 8:56 am (#160 of 354)

H.H. and T., I couldn't see how the prophecy could help him.  I thought perhaps I was missing something.. which occurs quite often.

Rose, I like the idea about Dumbledore's plan beginning(faking his death?) to form when we see the glint in his eye.I think something significant happened when Voldemort used Harry's blood and hopefully Harry will be able to destroy Voldemort without directly murdering him.

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valuereflection - Oct 31, 2005 5:40 pm (#161 of 354)

I can't remember where I heard this idea from, so sorry I can't give proper credit where it's due: the biggest consequence that would happen if Voldemort were to hear the entire prophecy is that he would become much more dangerous. Voldemort would become more confident when he plans acts of ruthless cruelty, even more confident than he already is. This would happen because Voldemort would learn of the certainty that there is no one who is capable of vanquishing him other than Harry Potter. Right now he does not know this; thus he makes his plans carefully to work around Dumbledore, the Order of the Phoenix, the aurors from the Ministry of Magic, and probably anyone else who gives him pause to consider that they might stop him. If he hears the rest of the prophecy, he will no longer be afraid that anyone could stop what he wants to do. He would boldly challenge everyone except Harry Potter.

Dumbledore wished to keep Voldemort wasting lots of his time in planning how to get around the people who he still believed could thwart his plans. This kept Voldemort from causing the mayhem he would attempt with no holds barred. Hopefully the wizarding world will succeed in keeping information about the prophecy secure from Voldemort in the future.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 31, 2005 8:53 pm (#162 of 354)

I think Voldemort already thinks he is invincible...because of his Horcruxes.

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missme - Feb 28, 2006 8:44 pm (#163 of 354)

Changing the subject... what is going to happen to her in the seventh book? Clearly Dumbledore was keeping her at Hogwarts for her protection, but will McGonagall keep her? If LV captures her will he torture her into teling him the prophecy?

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Neville Longbottom - Mar 2, 2006 4:43 pm (#164 of 354)

I am pretty sure McGonagall will keep her. She already was on her side when Umbridge wanted to throw her out. But what could happen IMO is that Trelawney chooses to leave, because she doesn't feel respected enough, particularly now with Firenze around. But than, I'm not sure if she really wants to risk her pretty well paid job and roof over her head, or if she just threatens to leave like in HBP, to make sure nobody forgets about her. I consider her to be in danger anyway, because my guess is that a Horcrux is in Hogwarts and that the final battle will take place there.

And I think it's highly likely that she will make another prophecy. Those things always come in threes after all.

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Choices - Mar 2, 2006 6:04 pm (#165 of 354)

We also have to consider the possibility that the DE's kidnapped Trelawney as they were exiting Hogwarts after the murder (??) of Dumbledore.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 2, 2006 6:29 pm (#166 of 354)

A thought occurred as to how Sybill knew that it was Severus that interrupted them?  When she makes a true prediction she goes into a trance.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 3, 2006 4:54 pm (#167 of 354)

I probably should not be the one to respond to this, Nathan, but off the top of my head, I believe Snape was struggling with whoever caught him and upon finishing the prophecy, DD promptly opened the door to see what the disturbance was about - Trelawney would have regained her awareness by then.

The details are sketchy, though and (as usual) leave room for speculation. Or, there is also the idea that DD could have just explained to her why he was standing with the door open during their interview which would fit with her explanation. I would go with the former, though, because I can't see DD wanting to miss any of something so important as the prophecy.

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Lina - Mar 7, 2006 2:57 am (#168 of 354)

1. I think Harry should hang around her in the next book, just hoping to hear some new prophecy or maybe an indication for the Horcruxes. Although she already made 3 predictions: Voldemort marking Harry as equal,
2. Wormtail returning to his master and
3. The Lightning-Struck Tower...


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Pinky Prime - Mar 9, 2006 8:21 am (#169 of 354)

I'm glad you caught that!

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2006 9:15 pm (#170 of 354)

What I can't figure out is, if she was in a trance when she made the prophecy at the inn, and the eavesdropper was ejected from the building before hearing it all, how did she know who was there, since she is in a trance when she makes real prophecies?

I always thought the prophecies that she made when she was NOT in a trance were all junk, until she said Harry was born under the influence of Saturn. Saturn rules Capricorn, and Snape and Riddle are both Capricorns, are they not? And Saturn is sometimes a death symbol.

Now I'm confused.

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Choices - Mar 11, 2006 10:25 am (#171 of 354)

Here is the way I have envisioned the prophesy happening.....Trelawney and Dumbledore are in the room, Trelawney goes into a trance and begins giving the prophesy. Snape is listening outside the door and hears the first half of the prophesy, at which point he is caught by the barkeep (Aberforth??) who demands to know what he is doing listening at the door? While the barkeep is questioning Snape, Trelawney finishes the prophesy - it couldn't take more than a couple of minutes for her to give it - and it is then that the barkeep opens the door to let Dumbledore know that Snape was snooping. Trelawney sees Snape, hears that he was caught listening at the door and sees the barkeep haul him out of the bar. Trelawney doesn't know she has given a prophesy, she just thinks Snape was listening to her interview with Dumbledore for a teaching position.

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TheSaint - Mar 11, 2006 12:04 pm (#172 of 354)

I found that most of her predictions were good. It is just that Harry, as an object, was strongest. He was the one that needed to beware the red headed man. He was the one that the thing he would be dreading came to pass that day, his request to go to Hogsmeade was rejected.

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Steve Newton - Mar 11, 2006 12:38 pm (#173 of 354)

Just a nagging doubt. From the information that we have been given it could have been Aberforth who was interrupted snooping.

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TheSaint - Mar 11, 2006 1:05 pm (#174 of 354)

Didn't DD confirm it was Snape?

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Caius Iulius - Mar 13, 2006 10:59 am (#175 of 354)

Choices, that is how I have always seen it.

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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 11:09 am (#176 of 354)

The Saint. I don't recall Dumbledore explicitly saying this, that is why I have a small doubt. I recall, vaguely, that he lets Harry draw his own conclusion. I should reread that section.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 13, 2006 2:13 pm (#177 of 354)

Does anyone have a quote from that section? The thought you posted, Steve, has crossed my mind, so maybe there is a reason for it. . .or my memory stinks.

Edit:  Thanks, Mrs. Brisbee. Back to St. Mungos for me, I guess.

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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 2:23 pm (#178 of 354)

Here you go, Dumbledore talking to Harry:

Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard.... (HBP, Ch 25, "The Seer Overheard")

Unless Dumbledore is outright lying to Harry, it was Snape.

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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 2:44 pm (#179 of 354)

Thanks for clearing that up.

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wynnleaf - Mar 14, 2006 2:00 pm (#180 of 354)

Choices,

That's a great summation of the probably events. I'd expect that it probably happened just about as you describe. I think JKR is trying to give us, through DD, correct information. And Trelawney obviously saw Severus at the door. In order for all to be true -- Severus only hearing half of the prophecy, yet Trelawney seeing Severus -- your scenario is probably the only solution.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 12, 2006 5:47 am (#181 of 354)

If the theory that Trelawney has been kidnapped is true, then I am thinking she will be one of the characters to die (while in Big V's captivity). I also thought it would be neat if she gave one final prophecy - that would make it a nice number, three - and this time it would be Big V, not Harry who hears it. We would have a situation where DD, Harry and Big V have heard a prophecy from Sybill.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 8:26 am (#182 of 354)

HungarianHorntail1 I like your idea. DD has said she is in great danger. I have felt Voldemort would try and kidnap her. I really like your idea of one more prophecy. Hope it is a good one! LPO

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Soul Search - Jul 12, 2006 8:37 am (#183 of 354)
Edited Jul 12, 2006 9:48 am

HungarianHorntail11, I like the idea of Sybill having a prophecy for Voldemort. But, I think there must be more to it.

Voldemort believes (or fears, or something) in prophecies. Otherwise, why go after Harry, why all the bother for OotP, and why kidnap Sybill. His belief in prophecies is a great weakness. Oh, this is getting good!

Sybill's first prophecy caused Voldemort to go after Harry. By his actions at Godric's Hollow, Voldemort made Sybill's first prophecy possible, by marking Harry, giving Harry capabilities (Parsletongue), and supplying Harry's motivation.

Sybill's second prophecy made(?) it possible for Voldemort to get a body back. Harry can't defeat a spirit, Voldemort has to have a body to be defeated. And to hear the third prophecy.

By believing the first prophecy and wanting to hear all of it, Voldemort kidnaps Trelawney, thereby setting himself up to hear the third prophecy.

Sybill's third prophecy predicts Voldemort dying at Harry's hand. Voldemort believes the prophecy, goes after Harry, thereby setting up his own defeat!

What a wonderful plot. JKR has set this up, supplying only the barest of hints. And Sybill Trelawney isn't just a minor, sherry swilling, third string character ... her prophecies are at the root of the whole storyline. Did Dumbledore figure this out?

Book seven in going to be a great read.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 8:55 am (#184 of 354)

Soul Search great scenario. I hope Voldemort doesn't send a DE after Harry instead of going himself! I think Dumbledore figured it out. That is why he kept close tabs on Trelawny. LPO

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wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 9:04 am (#185 of 354)

Soul Search,

It sounds like you are basically assuming that the Trelawney kidnapping theory is going to become canon. Am I interpreting you correctly? I think it's an excellent theory, but personally, I don't think there's enough evidence to base too many further theories on it.

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haymoni - Jul 12, 2006 9:37 am (#186 of 354)

If Trelawney was or ever is kidnapped by Voldy, I don't think he's going to wait around to see if she spouts another prophesy.

She'll go the way of Bertha Jorkins.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 12, 2006 10:26 am (#187 of 354)

Nah, she's too valuable. That's why Dumbledore wanted her around, aside from keeping her safe. But I totally agree we don't have the evidence to decide if she was kidnapped or not.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 12, 2006 11:23 am (#188 of 354)
Edited Jul 12, 2006 1:23 pm

I am trying to have fun with a theory that can fly or flounder. I'm glad it has sparked a discussion.

Foremost, though there is no canon of her whereabouts at the end of HBP, I cannot believe she would miss DD's funeral, or that JKR would omit her for any other reason. For now, I am following that line of thinking.

Nah, she's too valuable.  For what? Another prophecy? Judging by the one she gave in PoA, she has no recollection of the ones she predicts. Remember, the pensieve memory of her was from DD. I am thinking 3 is her number and 'Grim' has been all around her since day one.

I hope Voldemort doesn't send a DE after Harry instead of going himself! LPO, if he sends the rat, I think we have a whole other scenario than what you may be envisioning. The rat can work to set a trap for a neat twist. He will do whatever he must to save his skin and we do not yet understand the depths of a life debt.

I agree, Haymoni - BJorkins was also how I thought it may happen for Sybill, but you never know what happens in between. Some angered 'spirit' can spew a prophecy that sets him up to hang himself.

Back in the chat thread, I mentioned the saying, 'if you give someone enough rope, he/she will eventually hang him/her self'. I really believe JKR is setting Big V up for just that. He has admitted to overlooking important things. Now, with his rebirth, he is more arrogant and possibly more powerful than ever. DD is now out of the way, to boot. He should now be feeling as high as high can go. Nowhere to go but down, IMHO.

EDIT: wynnleaf, yes, that is very true. I was answering from a reader's perspective. From what I gather, your post supports the idea that Big V getting her in his possession would be pivotal in the storyline. (i.e., giving him a longer rope)

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wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 11:32 am (#189 of 354)

The primary reason LV might have wanted to kidnap Sybil would be for the prophecy. He wouldn't be interested if he didn't think prophecies were very important. Therefore, Sybil is important, both for past and possibly future prophecies. She's important because LV thinks prophecies are important. How much better to have the seer right there where he gets to hear the next prophecy. Then LV would be the one with the inside knowledge, instead of DD, Harry and the Order.

Of course LV would consider Sybil important! He'd keep her alive as long as he could, but I wouldn't be surprised (assuming she's been kidnapped) if she gets killed in the end.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 12, 2006 12:26 pm (#190 of 354)

I am still a bit fuzzy with regard to where this whole prophecy-making sits:

Big V heard and acted on a (partial) prophecy. . .and it came true (so far). Harry heard and did not act on a prophecy. . .and it came true.

It seems to me as though a third one is imminent yet I still don't have a handle on the direction.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 1:57 pm (#191 of 354)
Edited Jul 12, 2006 2:57 pm

HungarianHorntail1 It depends on what plot device Jo needs!

Wynnleaf I agree, Voldy will want to hear all of the prophecy. So Sibyll is important. LPO

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TheSaint - Jul 12, 2006 1:58 pm (#192 of 354)

I do see a bit of Volde torture in Sybill's future, poor thing. She doesn't even know she made the prophecy and Voldemort is going to want to hear it.

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Choices - Jul 12, 2006 5:11 pm (#193 of 354)

*wonders when someone is going to correct the spelling of Sybill's name in the title of this thread?** :-)

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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 3:00 am (#194 of 354)

Yes, Saint - that was where I was going with the Bertha Jorkins bit.

I could see the poor thing trying like she did with Umbridge and Voldy getting a bit angry with her.

He may just have to "Imperio" her to get the info, but something tells me he doesn't find her THAT valuable.

If he kills her, he won't hear any more prophesies, but neither will anyone else.

I really hope Sybill has not been kidnapped.

She's like Fredo - so helpless!

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Catherine - Jul 13, 2006 3:21 am (#195 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 4:22 am

*wonders when someone is going to correct the spelling of Sybill's name in the title of this thread?** :-) –Choices

Choices, your wish is my command, but her name, Sibyll, is already spelled correctly, per my copy of OoP.

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Laura W - Jul 13, 2006 3:50 am (#196 of 354)

Is this just another of those nonsensical differences between the UK and American versions, Catherine?

Raincoast Books spells it "Sybill."

Laura

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Catherine - Jul 13, 2006 4:18 am (#197 of 354)

Laura, I never thought about that. I am looking at a Scholastic paperback of OoP.

Hmm..the Lexicon says "NOTE: The spelling of Trelawney's first name seems to be different in the British version than it is in the U.S. version. The British version has "Sybill" while the U.S. version has "Sibyll."

I suppose that the Forum is using the American spelling (which is listed first in the Lex).

Thanks for the tip, Laura W.

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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 4:25 am (#198 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 5:25 am

As long as it isn't Cymball or Simple, I think we're OK.

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Laura W - Jul 13, 2006 4:28 am (#199 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 5:29 am

You're welcome, Catherine.

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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 10:44 am (#200 of 354)

Ever since my #183 post supporting HungarianHorntail11's suggestion of a third Trelawney prophecy it has been nagging me that her second prophecy, unlike the first, didn't seem to cause any change in the storyline.

Harry even saved Pettigrew from Sirius and Lupin; he might not have if he had recalled (or believed, understood) the second prophecy. If Harry had fully understood and believed the second prophecy, he might of risked changing events and tried to catch Wormtail as he ran into the forest. But he didn't do anything different because of the prophecy.

So, why was the second prophecy in the storyline at all? Just to get us used to the idea of prophecies? Maybe, but its been nagging me that I have missed something.

The nag is "Why did Wormtail go to Voldemort?"

I, at first, accepted the notion that Wormtail wanted to go to someone big who could protect him. But, as I think about it, that doesn't make all that much sense.

Pettigrew wasn't one of Voldemort's "inner-circle." He had a dark mark, but when Voldemort touched it and the death eaters came and formed the circle in GoF, Pettigrew didn't take a place in the circle.

Pettigrew didn't join Voldemort out of worship or anything, but out of fear. Voldemort used him, but that's all.

And, Wormtail gave Voldemort the information that caused Voldemort's body to die and Voldemort spend thirteen years as a spirit. Would he welcome Pettigrew back after that? I wouldn't count on it.

Pettigrew couldn't be sure that Voldemort even existed. Travelling to Albania (he had heard rumours) would be a perilous journey. He could be spotted as Pettigrew and eaten as Wormtail. Pettigrew was a coward. Why would he undertake such a journey with only the barest possibility that he would find Voldemort, be of service to him, and then have Voldemort to protect him?

The answer is easy. Pettigrew heard Trelawney's second prophecy.

Pettigrew fakes his death in PoA, "The Patronus," which occurs circa February. Did he rush off to Hagrid's milk jug? No, he hung around the castle, for over three months. Plenty of hiding places and food to find. And, he didn't rush off to Voldemort either; he hadn't got the idea yet.

Trelawney makes her second prediction in "Professor Trelawney's Prediction," circa late May.

Pettigrew hears the prophecy. Now he gets the idea of finding Voldemort. By hearing the prophecy, he knows Voldemort still exists and that he will be successful in finding and helping him. He starts off, but only gets to Hagrid's cabin, where he is discovered by Hermione. Later he escapes and heads for Albania.

So, Trelawney's second prophecy did change events. Without it Pettigrew would not have gone to Voldemort.

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Catherine - Jul 13, 2006 11:02 am (#201 of 354)

I, at first, accepted the notion that Wormtail wanted to go to someone big who could protect him. But, as I think about it, that doesn't make all that much sense.--Soul Search

I assumed that this was why Peter/Scabbers was hanging out in Hagrid's hut. Hagrid doesn't like cats, so perhaps Wormtail thought he'd be safe there, with the biggest friend of all.

I think that Wormtail went to Voldemort because he truly didn't feel he had a choice. Sirius was out of Azkaban with his innocence revealed to the right people.

Pettigrew wasn't one of Voldemort's "inner-circle." He had a dark mark, but when Voldemort touched it and the death eaters came and formed the circle in GoF, Pettigrew didn't take a place in the circle. --Soul Search

I assumed that this was because Wormtail was writhing on the ground in agony due to his amputated hand.

The answer is easy. Pettigrew heard Trelawney's second prophecy. --Soul Search

That's interesting, I'll give you that. I don't see any clues in the novels, though, that support this. Can you find any references that might show this, aside from Wormtail's presence in Hagrid's hut? We simply don't know how long he had been living there.

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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 11:42 am (#202 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 1:16 pm

Catherine,

I think Wormtail left the castle to head for Voldemort, but was chased by Crookshanks and Snuffles. He went into Hagrid's hut to escape them. After all, he was hiding in a milk jug.

No. I haven't been able to find any direct clues, or even hints. The whole idea is based on deduction.

I even have a bit of a problem explaining why Wormtail would have been in Trelawney's rooms to hear the prophecy. Maybe following Harry around. Maybe just because her rooms, reached only by a ladder, would be a place safe from Crookshanks.

It might even be suggested that the prophecy wasn't meant for Harry to receive, but Pettigrew, who was there to overhear it. After all, Harry didn't do anything with it and it didn't, immediately, affect Harry at all. It did affect Pettigrew immediately. He decided to head out for Voldemort, after hiding in the castle for three months.

Wormtail could have lived well in Hogwarts castle. Is it mere coincidence that he headed for Voldemort shortly after Trelawney predicted "... His servant has been chained these twelve years. ... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. ... the Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, ..." Who, besides Pettigrew, could be the "servant."

Later addition.

Trelawney's first prophecy was heard by Dumbledore, but meant for Voldemort. Snape had to hear the prophecy and tell it to Voldemort for the prophecy to come about. If Voldemort hadn't reacted to the prophecy, it wouldn't have happened.

Harry heard the second prophecy, but it was meant for Pettigrew. Pettigrew had to set out for Voldemort, or the second prophecy wouldn't have happened.

I think I am seeing something about Trelawney's "prophecies." They don't predict events, they cause events.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 13, 2006 12:31 pm (#203 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm

Soul Search - that makes a lot of sense and answers some of the questions I tried to convey regarding prophecies.

If the rat had, indeed overheard the 2nd one, then that answers one of my questions. Per Post #190 it just did not make sense to me why the mixed message with one prophecy having been acted upon and one not - yet both took effect.

Your suggestion, Soul Search, puts a whole new spin on it. Then we would now have two prophecies acted upon which is more consistent with the direction of the story.

To follow through, then, with earlier posts, I strongly feel as though Big V will be privy to the final prediction which will further tighten the noose. So what can he hear that would make him feel as though he has been put at an advantage while putting Harry at a disadvantage for not knowing? Another weakness of Harry's? I am wondering if this time it won't be DD's voice we hear through her. That would surely rattle Big V's cage.

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Lina - Jul 13, 2006 1:01 pm (#204 of 354)

Pettigrew wasn't one of Voldemort's "inner-circle." He had a dark mark, but when Voldemort touched it and the death eaters came and formed the circle in GoF, Pettigrew didn't take a place in the circle. --Soul Search

I assumed that this was because Wormtail was writhing on the ground in agony due to his amputated hand. – Catherine

I assumed it too, but now that Soul Search mentioned it, I don't remember that there was a hole in the circle mentioned that would belong to Wormtail.

But I don't think that Peter went to LV because he heard the prophecy, but because he knew that his secret wasn't secret any more and that he would be punished if he remained anywhere in Britain.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 1:45 pm (#205 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 2:50 pm

I might be mistaken, but I think that after Voldemort gave Wormtail his new shiny hand, it says that Wormtail did take his place in the circle.

EDIT: Yep, indeed (bold mine):
Voldemort raised his wand again and whirled it through the air. A streak of what looked like molten silver hung shining in the wand's wake. [.......] He flexed the shining fingers, then, trembling, picked up a small twig on the ground and crushed it into powder.
“My Lord,” he whispered. "Master ... it is beautiful. . . thank you... thank you. ..."
He scrambled forward on his knees and kissed the hem of Voldemort's robes.
“May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail,” said Voldemort.
“No, my Lord . . . never, my Lord . . .”
Wormtail stood up and took his place in the circle, staring at his powerful new hand, his face still shining with tears. Voldemort now approached the man on Wormtail's right.
Lucius, my slippery friend, [....]

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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 2:38 pm (#206 of 354)

Good pickup, Anna L. Black, I stand corrected.

But I still think Pettigrew went looking for Voldemort only after he heard Trelawney's second prophecy.

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Choices - Jul 13, 2006 5:38 pm (#207 of 354)

Gosh, Catherine, I'm sorry. It never occurred to me that there might be a spelling difference between the British and American books. Sibyll it is - since I do love all things British. :-)

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Catherine - Jul 13, 2006 5:41 pm (#208 of 354)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 6:42 pm

Sibyll it is - since I do love all things British. :-) –Choices

Naturally. Why else would this site be here???

As we do have this site, we have managed to sort out everything Sybill vs. Sibyll. Almost.

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nthdavid - Jul 13, 2006 8:11 pm (#209 of 354)

I don't see how Peter could have heard the second prophecy since he was hiding out in Hagrid's hut. Lupin would have seen it in the map if he had returned to the castle. Don't know why he wouldn't bother to look in Hagrid's hut...

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 14, 2006 12:15 am (#210 of 354)

I don't see how Peter could have heard the second prophecy since he was hiding out in Hagrid's hut. Lupin would have seen it in the map if he had returned to the castle. Don't know why he wouldn't bother to look in Hagrid's hut... nthdavid

Aren't people suggesting that he heard the prophecy and then went to the hut? As for Lupin seeing it on the map when Pettigrew was in the castle, it wouldn't be all that unlikely, IMO, that Lupin didn't happen to see Pettigrew on the map; he wouldn't exactly be looking for him, and he might not have been looking for Sirius inside the castle, so he might have only been looking at the grounds. If Pettigrew were, however, in Hagrid's hut the whole time after his faked death, then it seems very likely that Lupin would have seen him on the map; beside from Hagrid, there aren't exactly many names to blur with on the map. And if I'm right in my assumption that Lupin would have kept a keener eye on the grounds than the castle, then it seems almost certain that Lupin would have seen Pettigrew out on the grounds. But then again, Hagrid's hut may not have been plotted on the map because it wasn't there during the time of the Marauders, so my entire thesis may be wrong...

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Lina - Jul 14, 2006 2:16 am (#211 of 354)

Thanks, Anna. It is amazing how many of us didn't notice that.

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Chemyst - Jul 14, 2006 3:54 am (#212 of 354)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 5:00 am

But then again, Hagrid's hut may not have been plotted on the map because it wasn't there during the time of the Marauders, so my entire thesis may be wrong...  TMR

Hagrid would have been at Hogwarts during the 1970s, the time of the Marauders; just not as the CoMC teacher. His job as Hogwarts grounds keeper goes back to the mid-1940s. His hut could have been built as early as July or August of 1943, or the hut could even have existed for the use of a former game keeper and he moved in to a "used" hut. Although, because of his size, I tend to think the hut was built just for him— so he wouldn't be bumping his head on the rafters or stooping to cook at the fire, etc.

Link to Lexicon timeline of Rubeus Hagrid.

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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 5:23 am (#213 of 354)

then again, Hagrid's hut may not have been plotted on the map because it wasn't there during the time of the Marauders

I thought Hagrid had lived on the premises as gamekeeper since he was expelled, back in Riddle's time at Hogwarts (1943?). If his hut is not on the map, could it be because the hut is technically located on the edge of the forest? I'm not saying this is a fact; I'm just asking.

Solitaire

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nthdavid - Jul 15, 2006 4:58 am (#214 of 354)

Hagrid's hut was probably there during the time of the marauders but it would be bad manners to map someone's house without their permission.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 5:13 am (#215 of 354)

What about someone's office? We know that all the offices were mapped. The map didn't go into the forest, did it? Isn't that one of the reasons Harry never saw Barty Sr. running around on the edge of the forest?

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 7:39 am (#216 of 354)

I wonder if the elusive graveyard shows on the map?

As superstitious as Trelawney is I think we would have gotten some type of reaction from her if she had been at the funeral. As reclusive as she is she just may not have been able to face such a large crowd.

...toddles off thinking she wasn't there because she couldn't take the sherry bottle with her...

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 15, 2006 6:39 pm (#217 of 354)

“We need to see Professor Moody,” said Hermione. "We need to find out whether he found Mr. Crouch."

“If he had the Maurader's Map on him, it would've been easy,” said Harry.

“Unless Crouch was already outside the grounds,” said Ron, “because it only shows up to the boundaries, doesn't-"

What exactly do the "boundaries" mean? Does that include the forest? If it did, it might have to be a much bigger map than a piece of parchment... Although, I believe that some have hypothesized that the map only shows the portion of Hogwarts at which you are looking at; perhaps that might explain why Lupin wouldn't have seen Pettigrew in Hagrid's hut; he wouldn't have much of a need to look there, and thus it wouldn't have shown up on the map.

Also, why would anyone have had to look into the Forbidden Forest, even if they were in there? Who would they have been trying to avoid out there? Either way, I personally believe that the Marauders wouldn't have felt it important to map the Forest; I don't see where they would have seen the point.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 16, 2006 4:59 pm (#218 of 354)

Can we get back to talking just about Trelawney? Because I was wondering if anyone was surprised Trelawney drinks. In Ancient Greece and Rome, seers were called sibyls and would get stoned to make prophecies. Some used narcotic incense, and some used wine. The shrine at Delphi was situated over a crevice that seeped methane gas, and the shrine at Dodona was over a spring that emitted carbon dioxide, which caused the seers to babble and then the babbling was interpreted.

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Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 9:22 pm (#219 of 354)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 10:22 pm

Die Zimtzicke, you posted something similar over on the Who will die in books 6/7? thread. Here is a link to my response. I made another post a few later. I think it would be great to bring that issue over here on Sibyll's thread.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 17, 2006 8:06 am (#220 of 354)

I moved over here because I thought it was getting off topic over there. Sorry if I confused anyone in doing so.

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Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 9:52 am (#221 of 354)

Die Zimtzicke, I think it is a great discussion, and I hope to see more input. The idea that it is standard operating procedure for psychics or mediums to use some sort of hallucinogenic makes Sibyll seem less like a ditzy tosspot and more like a bewildered but very real seer who does not completely understand what is happening to her.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 17, 2006 10:04 am (#222 of 354)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 11:05 am

I agree Solitaire - it does make one look at Sybill/Sibyll in a totally different and interesting way.

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Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 10:23 am (#223 of 354)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 11:24 am

I'm not sure this will make sense, but here goes ... Sometimes I think Sibyll makes a big deal of her "gifts" because, deep down, she is afraid she does not have them at all. The truth is, she probably does have them, but they do not manifest themselves in ways that conform to her idea of what they should be.

I think all of the upsetting things with the Tarot cards she is reading are probably related to messages she is "picking up." I think they are probably disturbing her, so her drinking is escalating--which just exacerbates the problem.

I worry that she is afraid to tell anyone about what she is experiencing, because she knows no one respects what she does. Too bad she does not confide in Firenze. He may be a Centaur who does not give any credence to her methods, but he does seem sincere and might be able to advise her.

Solitaire

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 17, 2006 12:57 pm (#224 of 354)

If it is still traditional for seers to use substances to help them be seers, in the Potterverse, as it was historically, though, maybe Trelawney is not just a comic drunk, as so many see her. Maybe she IS trying too hard, but in ways that make sense to her.

It's a chicken and egg thing, in a sense. Is her drinking making it harder for her to be taken seriously and make a prophecy, or is her problem getting the connection to make a prophecy causing the drinking itself? I run into few people in fandom who ever think that she has any NEED to drink, or that's she's driven to drink by her desperate circumstances. They usually all think she's just a goof. I'm hoping to find a refuge here to see her a bit differently.

Would Jo have the stones, though, to put something like that in, though, hoping the adults might notice it, and that it would go over the children's heads?

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wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 1:30 pm (#225 of 354)

“ . . .worry that she is afraid to tell anyone about what she is experiencing, because she knows no one respects what she does. Too bad she does not confide in Firenze. He may be a Centaur who does not give any credence to her methods, but he does seem sincere and might be able to advise her.”

Solitaire,

As I recall, she mentioned that she had talked to Firenze about what she'd been seeing in HBP and he'd laughed at her. Of course, if she knows deep down that people don't respect her, and if she doubts herself, this would only make it worse.

It turned out her warnings were fairly accurate. Firenze laughing at her was probably not because of inaccurate "readings," but because she could only see the terrible aspects, whereas I assumed Firenze took a much longer and broader view, and so wasn't upset by the immediate future. Just my guess, of course, but Sybil wouldn't see it that way.

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Choices - Jul 17, 2006 5:49 pm (#226 of 354)

Die and Solitaire - I think what you are saying about Sybill/Sibyll makes a lot of sense. I am really seeing her in a whole different way now and I think she deserves more respect/credit than she is getting.

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Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 7:29 pm (#227 of 354)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 8:30 pm

Sibyll is so hyper-sensitive about Firenze that I'm not sure she can be objective about anything connected with him. Judging from his behavior with Harry and Dumbledore, I rather doubt he laughed at her. He may have ignored her question--or possibly said that her concern for the immediate was unimportant--and just focused on the long term view of things, something I suspect she would interpret as having been ridiculed.

It's too bad Harry did not pursue all of this with Sibyll. His natural suspicions about things that were happening might have led him to connect a few dots and ask some pertinent questions of Dumbledore. If Sibyll is still around in Book 7, it might be wise for Harry to enlist Luna to pursue some of this. She is more open to the subject of Divination, and might actually be able to help Harry in this area. She would also be thrilled to be able to help him out, I think. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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Laura W - Jul 18, 2006 1:25 am (#228 of 354)
Edited Jul 18, 2006 2:28 am

   "She would also be thrilled to be able to help him out, I think."


... "as a friend."

eh, Solitaire? (grin)

Laura

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haymoni - Jul 18, 2006 5:51 am (#229 of 354)

Did Sibyll drink before Umbridge was on the scene?

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journeymom - Jul 18, 2006 8:21 am (#230 of 354)

No, there's nothing in canon to indicate she was drinking (to excess, anyway) before Umbridge came along. Though if in Book 7 JKR wanted to hint that Trelawney had always been a drinker, it would fit with her already established personality.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 18, 2006 8:50 am (#231 of 354)

I think Trelawny took to drinking because of the circumstances around Umbridge. I agree that there is some legitimate ability with her. HBP showed that she could make predictions without going into trances. LPO

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 18, 2006 8:56 am (#232 of 354)

I know this will cause a riot, but a friend of mind believes it so strongly I wanted to get other opinions. He thinks they already kidnapped Trelawney, and that Bella is impersonating her at Hogwarts using polyjuice. To my friend, that explains why:

1. Trelawney knew Snape was there while she was making the prophecy. It was Bella, saying something Death Eaters have heard.

2. Who one of the "better" people helping Draco fix the cabinet was, and that the drinking relates to the polyjuice.

3. Bella and/or Trelawney didn't show up at the battle.

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haymoni - Jul 18, 2006 9:16 am (#233 of 354)

Die - anything is possible!! I just wonder if Bella would be able to contain herself - even as Trelawney - with all those Muggle-borns trotting around Hogwarts.

LPO - that was the point I was considering. Up until that point, Trelawney was just weird.

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Steve Newton - Jul 18, 2006 9:38 am (#234 of 354)

Die, What evidence does your friend use to support his thesis?

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 18, 2006 10:22 am (#235 of 354)
Edited Jul 18, 2006 11:23 am

Didn't Harry specifically notice the smell of Sherry?

That theory would definitely add a twist!

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TheSaint - Jul 18, 2006 5:37 pm (#236 of 354)

Die - anything is possible!! I just wonder if Bella would be able to contain herself - even as Trelawney - with all those Muggle-borns trotting around Hogwarts.

Perhaps that explains the increase in alcohol consumption! LOL She is drowning her desire to get those muggle-born brats.

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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 18, 2006 7:01 pm (#237 of 354)

I don't think you can have any hard evidence for something like that. It's all speculation. I said some of the things they believe it could explain. That's the best I can do. I'll try to get more details if anyone is interested. I was listening, but not exactly taking notes.

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Lina - Jul 19, 2006 4:21 am (#238 of 354)

No need to riot. That is an interesting theory. I don't think we can prove either right or wrong until the book comes out, but it is definitely something interesting.

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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2006 4:56 am (#239 of 354)

Well, until some evidence is presented I can't give it much credence or time.

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 4:57 am (#240 of 354)

I'm sick of Polyjuice Potion.

We've already seen 3 times - the Trio, Barty/Moody and Draco et al.

Enough!

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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2006 4:58 am (#241 of 354)

Agreed, Haymoni! I think that 3 times is quite enough of the stuff.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 19, 2006 5:17 am (#242 of 354)
Edited Jul 19, 2006 6:18 am

If book 7 parallels book 3 like some have speculated, we will see more polyjuice and time turners.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 7:45 am (#243 of 354)

I'm with you, Haymoni. I'd prefer to see some of the potions we have only read about actually put to use. Although the Time-Turners give me a headache, I wouldn't mind seeing them used once more.

Solitaire

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Pamzter - Aug 3, 2006 4:45 pm (#244 of 354)
Edited Aug 3, 2006 5:45 pm

Now that DD is dead I'm having to re-think alot of things. So now I'm starting to think that Trelawney is going to play a bigger part. But who is going to protect her? DD seemed to be the only one who seemed concerned for her.

Is the Trio going to need to rescue her (I can see that more than rescuing Ginny)? Nothing like rescuing someone you can't stand.

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Finn BV - Aug 3, 2006 5:41 pm (#245 of 354)

McGonagall stood up for her in OoP when Umbridge fired her. And, even though McG didn't think much of Divination, neither did Dumbledore. I wouldn't be surprised if McGonagall took even greater lengths to protect Trelawney. That said, we'll probably find Trelawney captured at the beginning of the book. I have been wrong many times.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 8:21 pm (#246 of 354)

I agree with Finn. McGonagall was genuinely protective of Sibyll when Umbridge tried to sack her. I suppose she could have just said what she did to defy Umbridge, but I do not think so. I would be surprised if Dumbledore had not told McGonagall (even if he did not divulge the reason) that it was imperative that Sibyll remain at Hogwarts--whether she continues to teach or not--for her own safety. Snape obviously knows why she must remain--having heard part of the prophecy and knowing that Voldemort will not rest until he himself has heard it--but until we know his loyalties for certain, that is a moot point.

If the other staff members know that McGonagall is to succeed Dumbledore, should something happen to him (which it did), then it is possible that Sibyll figured McGonagall would dispense with Divination, and she left of her own accord. Somehow, though, I doubt this. If she is gone, I suspect she was abducted. The fact that she has been seen wandering around the RoR a few times is not a good sign. It puts her right where all the trouble started ... which means she would have been an easy target.

Solitaire

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journeymom - Nov 2, 2006 10:45 am (#247 of 354)

Since Elanor brought it up on the Book Titles thread, I've been wondering about the meaning of the name Trelawney. Of significance to the HP stories, Elanor suggested that the Tre in the name predicts Sybill will make one more true prophecy.

I've googled all over the net and cannot find a literal definition of the name.

From Mugglenet's name origins:

Trelawney - Trelawney is a Cornish family tracing back to Saxon days. In 1668, Jonathan Trelawney became Dean of St. Buryan, afterwards Bishop of Rochester, and was one of the seven Bishops -imprisoned in the Tower of London-. He was one of the subjects of the great Cornish song And shall Trelawney die." Apparently, the song is/was the Cornish National Anthem. Trelawney is also an area in Cornwall, England."

Sorry, I don't know how to make italics. But in this I thought it notable that Jonathan Trelawney was imprisoned in the Tower. Sybill Trelawney's classroom was in a tower. She rarely left it. Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts for her own safety.

The Lexicon refers to the same Jonathan Trelawney as "an independant thinker". (Hence he was locked up!)

"And shall Trelawney live?
Or shall Trelawney die!
Here's twenty thousand Cornish men
Will know the reason why!"

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haymoni - Nov 2, 2006 10:51 am (#248 of 354)

I like the Tre=3 connection.

Perhaps her 3rd prophesy will come in front of a roomful of people, including Umbridge, and she will be vindicated at last!

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S.E. Jones - Nov 2, 2006 2:21 pm (#249 of 354)

journeymom --Sorry, I don't know how to make italics.—

Journeymom, you can find directions for various types of HTML code on the Navigating the Forum thread.

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valuereflection - Nov 21, 2006 11:07 am (#250 of 354)

Here are three subtopics about Professor Sybill Trelawney which were not posted on this thread. I'm posting them here because they might add to the discussion.

1. Mopsus:

(from my old post, Post #26 on the thread "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 10-12," in the "Read Along Group Section Folder")

Does Harry give any thought or credence to Trelawney's predictions? --Mrs. Sirius

He doesn't seem to dwell at all on what he overheard. I think he might be inured to them, after all those years of her seeing continuous death omens about him. He's better off ignoring them, all things considered, just so he can function without wondering if a death threat lurks around every corner. It does seem that she does have the gift of Seeing, though, even outside of her two Voldemort prophecies. I'm wondering if her omen gave Dumbledore any useful information, or if it was too vague to be of any use, or if he just ignored it. -- Mrs Brisbee

JKR touched this issue a little bit, in her interview with the children “reporters” the day after HP6 was published: "...at one point there was a blind character who went by the name of Mopsus, and I will let you look him up because there is a mythological connection there, but he sort of ¬¬ that was a very early character and he had the power of second sight (sic), in other words he was a bit like Professor Trelawney, he was a very, very early character, this was when I was drafting Philosopher's Stone, the reason I cut him was he was too good. As the story evolved, if there was somebody who really could do divination at the time that Harry was alive, it greatly diminished the drama of the story because someone out there knew what was going to happen. So that is why Mopsus went and I have never really replaced him..."

Its interesting to me that JKR replaced Mopsus with Sibyll Trelawney because she didn't want the character to be predictable. Remember Dumbledore said he wasn't inclined to continue offering divination classes, but he met with Sibyll Trelawney because she was the great-great-granddaughter of Cassandra Trelawney, a "very famous, very gifted" Seer in her day (OP37).

It was fun to look up the mythological references for both Cassandra and Sibyll. Sibyl was the Greek work for any ancient prophetess, of which there were many. But Cassandra was a Trojan seer, gifted with true prophecy, who captured the eye of Apollo and so was given the ability to see the future. When she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. One big example was when the people of Troy ignored her warnings not to allow the Trojan Horse within the city's walls, a mistake that allowed the Greeks to capture Troy.

I believe JKR based Professor Trelawney's character on the myth of Cassandra. Its hilarious to me that everything Trelawney predicted in Book 6 came true, but no one took her predictions seriously. In this book JKR didn't remind us readers of Trelawney's ancestor Cassandra, because she didn't want us to think too much about what the things Trelawney said might mean... Her character is both sad and funny.

2. Trelawney's eyesight:

(from "Harry's Eyes...Harry's Glasses...Eyes in general," a now-mulched thread, of which I kept a personal copy)

Yesterday, I met a cousin who is VERY far-sighted and I was thinking that his glasses were very similar to the description of Trelawney's glasses because they're magnifying his eyes A LOT.

If Trelawney is far-sighted that is very interesting because that means that she can't see properly what's close to her but can see what's far from her. So, maybe is she a better seer that we (and she) imagine she is and the words she says, even if they seem inappropriate at that point, may reveal some "far-sighted" clues (as for the Grim which was a clue concerning Sirius's death and not Harry's). What do you think? (Elanor, Sep 18, 2004, Post #233)

Elanor, I like what you said about Trelawney. I know this is not canon, but in the POA movie, Emma Thompson plays Trelawney as kinda of clumsy, knocking about person. She literally, cannot see what's right in front of her and feels around a lot with her hands. Like you said, Trelawney was making correct predictions, just about the wrong person. (LooneyLuna, Sep 19, 2004, Post #234)

3. "Sibyll Trelawney and the Art of Divination" is a "Scribbulus" essay at The Leaky Cauldron website. Here is a link:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Scribbulus

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Pinky Prime - Nov 25, 2006 8:10 pm (#251 of 354)

I wonder about her non-trance state prophesies...

How accurate is she?

Dunno if I should read the whole series again I did a re-read of POA. "One of our number will leave us forever" or "The Grim" (The animagus form of Sirius Black) seems to me it's all according to one's interpretation just like her trance-state ones.

Was the lightning struck tower a premonition or a real prophesy? Or does her detached social skills make her less believable.

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journeymom - Nov 25, 2006 8:13 pm (#252 of 354)

Well, she turns up the Lightning Struck Tower repeatedly, doesn't she? She tries to warn Dumbledore but he kicks her out of his office.

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Choices - Nov 26, 2006 6:26 pm (#253 of 354)

I think we are being led to believe that Sibyll is a "right old fraud", but I think she is a lot more creditable than JKR wants us to know.

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painting sheila - Nov 26, 2006 10:11 pm (#254 of 354)

Do you think the fumes in her classroom have anything to do with anything? I am re-reading GoF and the smells in her classroom are mentioned every time they head that way.

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Choices - Nov 27, 2006 10:53 am (#255 of 354)

Yes, I think she burns "substances" in her fire that causes the drowsiness and stupor that Harry feels when he is in her class. I think it is some sort of "psychedelic" agents or incense that help her to "see" and "prophesy". That, along with her "cooking Sherry", probably keep her "in the beyond".

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painting sheila - Nov 27, 2006 8:21 pm (#256 of 354)

Yikes!

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 27, 2006 9:32 pm (#257 of 354)

Well, there's a precedent for that.

In Ancient Greece and Rome the seers at the famous shrines of prophecy were called sibyls. The shrine at Delphi was situated over a crevice that leaked an intoxicating gas, probably methane. The sibyl would inhale the gas, get hyper and babble. The babblings were then interpreted as prophecies. At Dodona, the shrine was placed over a sparkling spring that gave off carbon dioxide. The sibyls there got woozy and babbled. Other ancient sybils did get drunk on wine or by sniffing narcotics burned as incense.

Jo is probably just playing with the legends, but I suppose it could mean something more. I just am not sure if it does.

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Pinky Prime - Nov 28, 2006 2:57 pm (#258 of 354)

Glad we have you for these great feeds to posts D Z didn't mean that the way it was spelled oooops! Just tried to shorten your name.

The thing is ... Are their two or more definitions for the word "prophesy" or am I sniffing vapors ?

Here's the definition for Seer out of the Lex

Seer Another rare gift is the Inner Eye, the ability to prophesy. A wizard with this gift is called a Seer. Trelawney does have some small measure of this talent, but it has surfaced only twice that we know of. She is, however, the great-great-granddaughter of a very famous and very talented Seer, Cassandra Trelawney.

only twice that we know of Hmmmmmmmmmm???????

What about - "the centaur - knows nothing of 'cartomancy'" in the HBP. Here's the hint again...

Her interpretation is pretty standard, as far as I know.

Curiouser and Curiouser. Hem Hem! Guess that woke me. Lol

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Pinky Prime - Nov 28, 2006 3:32 pm (#259 of 354)

One more thing Do any of you think her boggart is Umbridge?

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T Vrana - Nov 28, 2006 3:57 pm (#260 of 354)

An empty bottle of sherry, more like!

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juliebug - Nov 28, 2006 4:12 pm (#261 of 354)

or McGonagall

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TomProffitt - Nov 28, 2006 7:03 pm (#262 of 354)

Sibyll's boggart? I imagine she fears seeing her own death, and I'm beginning to suspect she already has. Thus the alcohol issue. I really feel sorry for her.

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Thom Matheson - Nov 29, 2006 1:19 am (#263 of 354)

Or an empty Sherry Bottle

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TheSaint - Nov 29, 2006 6:31 am (#264 of 354)

Interesting thought Tom. Would answer some questions.

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Meoshimo - Dec 3, 2006 3:57 pm (#265 of 354)

*Cooking Sherry

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Ydnam96 - Dec 8, 2006 6:06 pm (#266 of 354)

Interesting thoughts.

I think that Sibyll's biggest fear is being thought of as a failure. She's constantly trying to prove herself. I'm wondering if she has older siblings? She shows typical youngest child tendencies.

Hmmm...random thought: do you think Sybil and Aberforth would make a good couple?

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Meoshimo - Dec 8, 2006 9:04 pm (#267 of 354)

He's too old.

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Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 9:59 pm (#268 of 354)

Helppppppp No more ships please. Maybe we can hook up Trevor with Crookshanks as well

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Solitaire - Dec 9, 2006 1:08 pm (#269 of 354)

I think the connection between the fumes or whatever it was at Delphi and the atmosphere in Sibyll's tower room has been discussed before in one of the threads. Like others, I don't think it is an accident that Sibyll's classroom has that kind of atmosphere.

I think Sibyll's battle with the bottle could be a sort of chicken-egg issue. Does she drink because she is troubled by the visions she is having? Or does her drinking perhaps contribute to her "visions"? It sounds like she may be "seeing" more visions or whatever they are than usual ... and perhaps this and the dismissal of what is happening has caused her to drink even more. At any rate, just because she is an old tosspot doesn't mean that the things she is seeing aren't legitimate. It reminds me of that old joke ... Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

Solitaire

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Laura W - Dec 10, 2006 2:47 am (#270 of 354)

Actually, Solitaire, I agree with what I think you are saying. Although a lot of what Sybill says is rubbish, but more of it is correct than most readers give her credit for. Mostly, she suffers from a terrible lack of confidence, in my opinion.

Laura

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S.E. Jones - Dec 10, 2006 3:11 am (#271 of 354)

I agree too. That's one of the reasons I find the fact that she's the great-great-whatever-granddaughter of a seer named Cassandra so very funny. Cassandra, in the Greek Illyad, was a seer who (because she scorned the advances of Apollo, who gave her the gift of prophecy) was cursed to see the future but never be believed. Jo did this with Trewlany by making her a prophetic version of the 'boy who called wolf'.

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Robert Dierken - Dec 10, 2006 9:20 pm (#272 of 354)

Or does her drinking perhaps contribute to her "visions"? Solitaire #269.

Remember good Saint Patrick, here's a bumper to his health
Who drove all the snakes from Ireland with strategy and stealth.
But not too many bumpers, or with all our might and main
We'll forget the good Saint Patrick, and see the snakes again.

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Regan of Gong - Dec 11, 2006 3:18 pm (#273 of 354)

Classic.

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Die Zimtzicke - Dec 12, 2006 11:25 am (#274 of 354)

I love you, Thom.

Shipping is the bane of my existance.

Shipping Trelawney is something that is beyond my understanding.

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Thom Matheson - Dec 12, 2006 3:35 pm (#275 of 354)

Oh, Die, I haven't blushed so much since Madame Pomphrey .....blah blah can't remember the quote now. But thanks for that just the same.

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Choices - Dec 12, 2006 6:26 pm (#276 of 354)

Something about new earmuffs.....

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Robert Dierken - Dec 13, 2006 8:28 pm (#277 of 354)

Actually, I misquoted the classic poetry. Here is the corrected version:

Remember good Saint Patrick, who through strategy and stealth
Drove all the snakes from Ireland. Here's a bumper to his health.
But not too many bumpers, or with all our might and main
We'll forget the good Saint Patrick, and see the snakes again.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 5, 2007 9:18 am (#278 of 354)

Just posted a quote I found interesting on the Prophecy II thread. Don't know if it will show up in the current folders or not, but here's a link: The Prophecy II #346

Sorry for the shameless plug.

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 4, 2007 3:12 pm (#279 of 354)

Trelawney - Trelawney is a Cornish family tracing back to Saxon days. In 1668, Jonathan Trelawney became Dean of St. Buryan, afterwards Bishop of Rochester, and was one of the seven Bishops -imprisoned in the Tower of London-. He was one of the subjects of the great Cornish song And shall Trelawney die." Apparently, the song is/was the Cornish National Anthem. Trelawney is also an area in Cornwall, England."

Names of people and places in the Potterverse are seldom randomly bestowed.

Cornwall is a region in England closely associated with the Arthurian legends. Think Merlin & Morgan Le Fay.

Perhaps Jo is trying to tell us that there is more to Sybill Trelawney than meets the Outer Eye

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 4, 2007 4:05 pm (#280 of 354)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 5:09 pm

Madame Pomfrey, I have a theory... IF Voldemort were to hear the prophecy... and know that Harry has a 'power the Dark Lord knows not'...I think Voldemort would believe that it was the blood protection Harry had from his mother and that he has overcome that particular 'power the Dark Lord knows not' when he used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony. I think Voldemort would pat himself on the back for his cleverness and become over confident, as all mass murderers do.

Around the year 1040 the Weird Sisters were playing a gig in Scotland (at Hogwarts?) and they came upon this dude Macbeth crossing the blasted heath. And they made him a prophecy:

All hail Macbeth that shalt be king hereafter!

Like Voldemort, Macbeth believes in prophecies. So, with a little help from his wife, Macbeth bumps off the current king and takes the crown--making the prophecy come true.

Many murders later, Macbeth begins to worry about his longevity. So he consults the Weird Sisters again, and now they tell him:

Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn The power of man, for none of woman born Shall harm Macbeth.

Again Macbeth believes the prophecy and more blood flows in Scotland.

Until an overconfident Macbeth goes one-on-one against Macduff:

Macbeth: I bear a charmed life, which must not yield To one of woman born.

Macduff: Despair thy charm, And let the angel whom thou still hast served Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb Untimely ripped.

Voldemort, like Macbeth, sets too much store in literal prophecy. And perhaps like Macbeth, Big V will misinterpret Sybill's words, miss the subtext, grow overconfident, and be the agent of his own destruction.

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Solitaire - Apr 4, 2007 8:57 pm (#281 of 354)

CrotonaPark44, if you do a search on the whole forum using Round Pink Spider and Macbeth, you will find some interesting theories and commentaries connecting events and characters in Macbeth with events and characters in the HP series. I think you might enjoy these posts as well as some other theories Round Pink Spider has posted. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2007 7:25 am (#282 of 354)

just thought of something as I was trying to catch up on the Horcrux thread.

In POA, Trelawney joined the Christmas feast. She was reluctant because it would mean that there would be 13 people at the table. She said it was unlucky because the first one to leave would be the first to die. This 'prophecy' has been taken to mean that either Harry or Ron would die because they got up together. But now that book 6 is behind us we can safely say this is rubbish. Because Dumbledore died first.

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T Vrana - Apr 6, 2007 9:53 am (#283 of 354)
Edited Apr 6, 2007 10:54 am

Did he? (Deciding whether to run over to the old Dead or Not thread......)

I think we need to separate superstitions from prophesies, though. That 13 is unlucky and the first to rise will die first is a superstition, not a prediction or prophesy based on any ability to 'see' the future.

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journeymom - Apr 6, 2007 10:51 am (#284 of 354)

That's true, T Vrana, they are separate ideas. But it is interesting to contemplate. Who else was at the table?

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 6, 2007 11:04 am (#285 of 354)
Edited Apr 6, 2007 12:06 pm

CrotonaPark44, if you do a search on the whole forum using Round Pink Spider and Macbeth, you will find some interesting theories and commentaries connecting events and characters in Macbeth with events and characters in the HP series. I think you might enjoy these posts as well as some other theories Round Pink Spider has posted. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Thanks for the heads-up. Solitaire

Glad I'm not the only one whose making these connections

Loved the link up between Bellatrix Black Lestrange and Lady Macbeth. Now that is food for thought!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 6, 2007 3:03 pm (#286 of 354)
Edited Apr 6, 2007 4:05 pm

CrotonaPark44, I think you might enjoy reading the thread entitled A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP.

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2007 4:19 pm (#287 of 354)

Just read further on the Horcrux thread. This is post 639 by Laura W.

Interesting, Laura. But if we take that scene at the dinner table in PoA literally, Dumbledore is the first to die.

Holy Hippogriffs, PatPat, you're right! I totally missed that! They were all seated at the table, Trelawney came in, Dumbledore stood up, Sybill made her prediction that "the first to rise will be the first to die." She did not say "the first to leave the table." The first to rise, to stand up, was DD. And she was right! He *was* the first of all those present to die.

Good for you!

I stand corrected.

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T Vrana - Apr 6, 2007 6:07 pm (#288 of 354)

But it is the first to stand when there are 13 seated at the table, isn't it? Trelawney said she dare not join them because she would make the number 13. I don't think DD's rising before she was seated counts. When he rose, they were 12.

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Charlotte Ash - Apr 6, 2007 9:04 pm (#289 of 354)

I hate to be a party pooper but I think JKR just put that in there to make us fight over it...but I'll tell you what I have to think anyway.

It has been said that if there are 13 intending to dine together in a room, that the first to rise (or stand up or what have you) would be the first to die. Mind you, Professor Trelawney hardly knows the difference between death and a paper cut, and we can not take everything she says to be 100 % accurate. Whereas, if we were hearing this from Hermione, we might be better off to assume it is the 'truth.'

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Laura W - Apr 7, 2007 11:06 am (#290 of 354)
Edited Apr 7, 2007 12:15 pm

It has been said that if there are 13 intending to dine together in a room, that the first to rise (or stand up or what have you) would be the first to die. (Charlotte Ash)

Looking at the exact wording of that scene. Sybill does not say "if there are 13 intending to dine together in a room," which would be the case before she sat down. She specifically says, regarding actually sitting at the table, "I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! ... Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!" Note, "when thirteen dine together." Based on this, it wasn't until she actually sat at the table (ie - after DD had stood up and sat down again) - making the number at the table 13 - and all had dined that the so-called curse takes effect.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And to complicate matters even more, if Ron had his rat in his pocket - as he usually did - when he went down to Christmas lunch, then there *were* 13 (including a wizard named Peter Pettigrew) sitting at the table when Sybill walked in. Her joining them made 14.

(evil grin)

Laura

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Anna L. Black - Apr 7, 2007 11:15 am (#291 of 354)

Well, if Pettigrew was there it actually simplifies matters rather than complicating them - because then they were 13 before Sybill came, the first to rise was Dumbledore, and he was also the first to die.

Do we have something in canon about Scabbers being there? It would fit so nicely

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TheSaint - Apr 7, 2007 11:20 am (#292 of 354)
Edited Apr 7, 2007 12:21 pm

I posted that information on the horcrux thread during the original discussion. Just before xmas dinner, Crookshanks made a fresh attack on Scabbers and Harry notes that he had not seen Scabbers out of Ron's pocket in quite a while and he was looking worse. This is two paragraphs before dinner. Considering the attack, I would think Ron would be carrying Scabbers (Peter) with him at dinner to safeguard and comfort him.

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Laura W - Apr 7, 2007 11:53 am (#293 of 354)
Edited Apr 7, 2007 1:02 pm

Ah yes, Jo cleverly threw in all kinds of things so that Trelawney's prediction of who will die first can be interpreted in several ways. (grin)

So, having read all the theories and discarding some of them (including some of my own), I have decided on how *I* take it. I now see it as --

-Sybill is saying that when 13 people are sitting at a table and when 13 have eaten a meal together, that the first person to rise (ie - stand up) from the table after eating will be the first to die,
- when Trelawney walked into the dining room and had actually physically sat down in the chair DD had drawn up for her, there were 13 people seated around the table,
- after all had finished their meal, both Ronald Weasley and Harry Potter stood up from the table at the same time,
-by the prediction, either Ron or Harry would have been the first of the 13 present to die,
- in fact, Albus Dumbledore died first.

Therefore, in this instance, the Divination professor was wrong.

Of course, *I* could be wrong, too. Don't think I was born with the Inner Eye. (wink)

Laura

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Soul Search - Apr 7, 2007 4:54 pm (#294 of 354)
Edited Apr 7, 2007 5:55 pm

I don't think Trelawney made a "prediction." She was merely reciting an old witches' tale. I have run across the "the first to rise will be the first to die!" part before. I recall that it derives from the Christian Last Supper.

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 7, 2007 6:13 pm (#295 of 354)

I think we need to separate superstitions from prophesies, though. That 13 is unlucky and the first to rise will die first is a superstition, not a prediction or prophesy based on any ability to 'see' the future. --T Vrana

I don't think Trelawney made a "prediction." She was merely reciting an old witches' tale. --Soul Search

I agree with Soul Search and T Vrana.

And Jo may have been pulling our collective legs by tossing us yet another red herring to distract our attention.

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Laura W - Apr 7, 2007 8:03 pm (#296 of 354)
Edited Apr 7, 2007 10:32 pm

Well, Trelawney certainly was right on with the prediction she made as soon as she sat at the table when she said, "If you must know, Minerva, I have seen that poor Professor Lupin will not be with us for very long." And that is what happened - although not in the way she meant.

Lupin was not with them (ie - "them" being the staff of Hogwarts and the school itself) for very long. The prediction was made near the end of December and by the end of that school year, Lupin was gone (ie - was no longer working at Hogwarts, having been exposed as a werewolf by Snape and also because of the DADA curse).

Just six months after Trelawney made her pronouncement at the Christmas lunch, poor "Professor Lupin was not with us" ... er, with them. Chalk one up for Sybill ... although she never actually knows what her predictions mean, even though she pretends to.

I believe the ancient Greek oracles - I've seen A LOT of Greek tragedy theatre in my lifetime! - had the same problem. The difference is that they would make their predictions but did not feel the need to interpret them. That was not their job. Just give the prediction and let the person who received it figure out or find out what it *really* means. Trelawney, on the other hand, is so insecure that she feels the need to interpret her predictions as well as to give them - just to prove that she is authentic. And she's usually wrong on the interpretation part; even when her prediction is accurate. This is a source of humour in the Harry Potter books.

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Edited to Add -

I don't think Trelawney made a prediction." She was merely reciting an old witches' tale. I have run across the "the first to rise will be the first to die!" part before. I recall that it derives from the Christian Last Supper." (Soul Search)

Just because it has been mentioned in other places in other times, that doesn't mean it wasn't a prediction. Jo borrows plenty of legends and tales from a number of religions, myths, cultures and classic literature in her books. I definitely think that Sybill felt she was making a prediction.

A lot of people on this Forum point to all kinds of possible hints from the first six novels as to what might happen in Book Seven. For example, Ron being sacrificed in the chess game in PS to mean that he will be sacrificed in the final book; and even way more obscure things. I see no reason not to give what Trelawney said about somebody who gets up from the table first equal credence in terms of Jo's many obscure hints. The locket at 12GP was mentioned briefly and seemingly in passing in OoP, but now a whole lot of people are saying, "Wow, that's the real locket Horcrux!"

With these books, you never know what is significant and what is "just an old witches' tale." That's part of the brilliance of them, right? An offhanded comment - or a seemingly silly comment - can be a portent of things to come. That is, a prediction. Or, it can be just an offhanded comment.

Laura

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TheSaint - Apr 7, 2007 9:54 pm (#297 of 354)

Exactly!

I have thought Ron's spell to turn his rat yellow would have actually worked had the rat been a rat. Hint number one.

I find many of Sybil’s predictions come true, just not to whom she assigns them.

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T Vrana - Apr 8, 2007 9:33 am (#298 of 354)
Edited Apr 8, 2007 10:34 am

Just because it has been mentioned in other places in other times, that doesn't mean it wasn't a prediction

The point I was trying to make was that Sybil didn't have a vision, a premonition, read the tea leaves or see the future. She's basing this prediction on a superstition, much the same as spilling salt, breaking a mirror or black cats are bad luck. So while Sybil indeed believes she is making a prediction, it is based on a superstition. That is, anyone who walked into that room and was superstitious could have made the same 'prediction'. This does seem to be different from her trances and her "real predictions", like Lupin. But really, Lupin looks a bit ragged and is number what? in a line of DADA teachers who only last a year? Hardly a tough prediction to make.

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mona amon - Apr 9, 2007 4:31 am (#299 of 354)
Edited Apr 9, 2007 6:44 am

I agree with T Vrana. Reminding people of a superstition is quite different from making a prediction. If Scabbers is counted, and there were indeed thirteen people at the table, and Dumbledore the first to rise was really the first to die, it means that in this case the superstiton turned out to be true, and no credit to Sybil!

I feel JKR makes some of Sybil's predictions come true, because she wouldn't be a convincing 'fraud' otherwise. And also for comic effect. Like Inspector Clouseau in The Pink Panther and lots of other characters like that. Bumbling and ineffectual, the comedy lies in their turning out to be right in the end. Well, not exactly, but something like that.

EDIT: Apart from her two 'real' prophesies, made in a different voice, I don't think we are meant to take Sybil's predictions seriously, even when they turn out right, with the probable exception of the time she pulls out the Lightning Struck Tower Card and shows it to Harry. There the effect is truly dramatic and tragic, at least in retrospect.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 9, 2007 6:57 am (#300 of 354)

Her reading of the cards in HBP when Harry was hiding behind the suit of armor waiting to go to Dumbledore's was also a true reading even though she writes it off as a mistake on her part.

Mickey

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mona amon - Apr 9, 2007 9:06 am (#301 of 354)

Mickey, I had forgotten that incident, so I went and looked it up-

'Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner-'

She stopped dead, right on the other side of Harry's statue.

'Well, that cant be right,' she said annoyed, and Harry heard her reshuffling vigorously as she set off again...'

LOL!

Poor Sybil, wandering about the corridors, smelling of cooking sherry. I wonder if , after the Wizarding World has been rid of Voldemort, she will come to know that it was she who made the prophecy which set the whole thing into motion? That would give her confidence a much needed boost.

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Chemyst - Apr 9, 2007 9:51 am (#302 of 354)

I'm still trying to decide if that knave of spades was dark-side Draco who didn't like DD or dark-haired Harry who didn't like Trelawney. I think JKR must go back and re-work a lot of Sibyll's dialogue in the re-edit stage because this sort of example abounds throughout the story.

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T Vrana - Apr 9, 2007 12:56 pm (#303 of 354)

I don't know anything about Tarot cards, but someone once pointed out that the 'questioner' is the 'card reader', in this case Sybil, and the dark young man, Harry. What's funny is her surety that she read it wrong, since she can't fathom that Harry dislikes her.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 9, 2007 1:40 pm (#304 of 354)
Edited Apr 9, 2007 2:41 pm

Not that it matters but I don't believe that Trelawney even knew Draco. We have never heard of any of the Slytherins taking Sybil's classes and Sybil doesn't grace the dining hall very often.

So Draco wouldn't have reason to dislike her. We know that Harry on the other hand does not like being in her presence.

As far as the knave of Spades being Harry since Spades is the high suit in cards, then I would say it would be Harry. Draco would be a club if ever I saw one, or the lowest suit. Hee..Hee

Mickey

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 9, 2007 5:03 pm (#305 of 354)

In Greek mythology, the prophetess Cassandra's Inner Eye always foretold the future accurately

Unfortunately, Apollo made sure no one ever believed her

Sybil Trelawney suffers from an inferiority complex and worries that no one ever believes her

Perhaps, by the time Jo untangles all the loose ends in Book 7, Sybil will have gained more self-confidence and people--including us--will take her predictions more seriously

Obviously I have a soft spot for the lady

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Laura W - Apr 9, 2007 9:03 pm (#306 of 354)
Edited Apr 9, 2007 11:14 pm

Her reading of the cards in HBP when Harry was hiding behind the suit of armor waiting to go to Dumbledore's was also a true reading even though she writes it off as a mistake on her part.[

So were her predictions during the first Divination class in PoA. She had never met Neville before, yet correctly predicted he would break a cup. She also said one member of the class would be leaving them around Easter. And Hermoine did.

And in GoF, she saw the signs in Harry ("... your dark hair ... tragic loses so young in life") that baleful Saturn was in a position of power at the moment of his birth and that he was born in mid-winter. Well, we all know that Harry was born on July 31. But, who does have dark hair and tragic losses young in life and *was* born in mid-winter? Tom Riddle, of course. And in CoS, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry when he tried to AK him. So, it is very possible that what Sybill was seeing when she made that seemingly-incorrect determination that Harry was born in mid-winter (and under Saturn's baleful influence) was the Tom Riddle in Harry Potter.

And in OoP, when Umbridge was overseeing her class and asked Trelawney for a prediction about her (Umbridge), at a time when Dolores was most secure in her job, Trelawney comes out with, "I sense something dark ... some grave peril ... I am afraid that you are in grave danger!" Ha, what a nut that Sybill is! Grave peril? Like what? Like Umbridge is going to be dragged off by a bunch of Centaurs and almost killed? Oh wait ... that's what happened.

I know Professor Trelawney is a comic figure. And she has no idea what she's saying most of the time. But that doesn't mean her predictions do not often come to pass. Because they do. In one form or another.

Laura

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 10, 2007 9:13 am (#307 of 354)

Sybill doesn't grace the dining hall often...that really set me off. Mickey, you are such a conductor of Light!

How in the heck did Slughorn ever get her to a party, and for what reason would he want her there? It just doesn't seem like Sybill's thing, to just go down to a crowded rollicking party, and she doesn't seem like the type to be one of Slughorn's best friends. I've often wondered why Snape bothered to go, but I never stopped to ask myself what Sybill was doing there.

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Choices - Apr 10, 2007 9:18 am (#308 of 354)

I agree Laura - Sibyll is comical and I think JKR intends for us to laugh and not take her seriously. Ah, that sly JKR and her diversions. But, between laughs, I do think we need to take Sibyll seriously. She's not as big a fraud as JKR wants us to believe.

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Chemyst - Apr 10, 2007 10:38 am (#309 of 354)
Edited Apr 10, 2007 11:40 am

How in the heck did Slughorn ever get her to a party...
Slughorn legitimizes her. It validates her worth among the psychic elite.
She has made the "A" list!

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HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 10, 2007 12:36 pm (#310 of 354)
Edited Apr 10, 2007 2:09 pm

mona amon, something in your quote has me very concerned for Trelawney's well being:
She stopped dead. . .

Why not say she stopped suddenly or she stopped short or she stopped? Rowling does tend to use such wording for a purpose.

Not sure why I hadn't noticed it before today.

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TheSaint - Apr 10, 2007 1:07 pm (#311 of 354)

Perhaps she showed up at the party to get something to drink besides cooking sherry! Old Sluggy would have the best!

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Solitaire - Apr 10, 2007 7:11 pm (#312 of 354)
Edited Apr 10, 2007 8:12 pm

As a staff member invited by a staff member, Sibyll might have felt obliged to make an appearance at the party. I can hear her now, explaining how she preferred to remain alone but felt it her duty to support her colleague and attend. If she was invited, the real truth is that she probably accepted because she doesn't get many social invitations ... although I doubt she'd ever admit as much.

Solitaire

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Lina - Apr 11, 2007 2:55 am (#313 of 354)

Slughorn was probably her teacher while she was a student at Hogwarts.

Now I'm beginning to wonder... what house was she in, was she a good student or not? How many OWLs, how many NEWTs? Was she similar to Luna?

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Apr 11, 2007 9:02 am (#314 of 354)
Edited Apr 11, 2007 10:03 am

HH11- I too noticed that wording and it made me wonder. I would imagine that if LV were to find out Sibyll was the one who made the prophecy about he and Harry, he would want to get his hands on her. This would most certainly put her in grave danger.

If Laura's idea about Sibyll seeing the bit of Tom Riddle in Harry is correct, perhaps her reading is foreshadowing of her death, thus the "stopped dead" wording. Perhaps the dark one who dislikes the seer is not Harry himself (I think she annoys Harry, but I don't think he truely dislikes her strong enough for her to read that, after all, he knows better than anyone how her predictions can be right) but rather the LV in Harry, who in some way blames Sibyll for his downfall that night in Godric's Hollow.

JM2K

-Jenn

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T Vrana - Apr 11, 2007 9:13 am (#315 of 354)

And in GoF, she saw the signs in Harry ("... your dark hair ... tragic loses so young in life") that baleful Saturn was in a position of power at the moment of his birth and that he was born in mid-winter. Well, we all know that Harry was born on July 31. But, who does have dark hair and tragic losses young in life and *was* born in mid-winter? Tom Riddle, of course. And in CoS, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry when he tried to AK him. So, it is very possible that what Sybill was seeing when she made that seemingly-incorrect determination that Harry was born in mid-winter (and under Saturn's baleful influence) was the Tom Riddle in Harry Potter.

Very good catch. Might be interesting to note on the horcrux thread, Harry horcrux like...bit of LV soul Sybil is 'reading'..?

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Choices - Apr 11, 2007 10:52 am (#316 of 354)

....or it could just be Voldemort's powers in Harry that Sibyll was reading.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 11, 2007 10:54 am (#317 of 354)

Maybe all of the death she has been foretelling is really Voldemort and not Harry.

Mickey

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Choices - Apr 11, 2007 11:00 am (#318 of 354)

That is devoutly to be wished.

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T Vrana - Apr 11, 2007 11:30 am (#319 of 354)

...or it could just be Voldemort's powers in Harry that Sibyll was reading.

I still have a hard time with exactly how one transfers ones powers without also transferring a bit of self. Nothing in the HP series comes close to explaining it except the idea that bits can be torn from ones soul and kept elsewhere. And it seems Sybil was reading his time of birth, and history, how this would relate just to LV's powers I can't explain.

For me, this is more 'evidence' that a bit of LV's torn soul found the pure, loved Harry very attractive....

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Laura W - Apr 11, 2007 12:37 pm (#320 of 354)

Very good catch. (T Vrana)

Thank you.

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TheSaint - Apr 11, 2007 5:47 pm (#321 of 354)

Choices thought so too...

Choices, "+ Trelawney & LV" #74, 30 Jun 2006 11:23 am

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 11, 2007 6:49 pm (#322 of 354)

Best case scenario for a happy ending to Book 7:

OP26--"Seen and Unforseen"

Professor Trelawney broke into hysterical sobs during Divination and announced to the startled class, and a very disapproving Umbridge, that Harry was not going to suffer an early death after all, but would live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children.

Wouldn't it be nice to think so--and know that Sybill was right on the money when it really counted??

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totyle - Apr 11, 2007 10:06 pm (#323 of 354)

CrotonaPark..oh it'd be lovely to think so..that Trewlaney got that correct. I'm going to route for that being in the epilogue for Harry in the end. YESSS! He's not going to die and he's not going to be banished as I feared!

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Laura W - Apr 11, 2007 10:39 pm (#324 of 354)
Edited Apr 11, 2007 11:56 pm

Saint, re your post 321: I honestly did not know that Choices had already proposed this theory when I wrote it. I did not even know there was a "Trelawney and LV" thread, and really did think I was coming up with an original idea. I would NEVER steal somebody else's idea and call it my own!!

And I hope you understand that too, Choices.

Laura

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T Vrana - Apr 12, 2007 3:38 am (#325 of 354)

Laura and Choices...

As they say, great minds think alike!

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TheSaint - Apr 12, 2007 5:14 am (#326 of 354)

Oh no Laura. I only remembered she had posted that because I teased her about it being a horcrux clue! I was not accusing...believe me! As T Vrana said...great minds thinking alike.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 12, 2007 5:30 am (#327 of 354)

The idea that Sybill was seeing the Tom Riddle in Harry Potter is a fantastic catch and I salute you guys. I want it to be something like that, because I think Sybill gets short shrift. I want her to be important, or at least not just a joke, and if there's a reason for what she says when her statements seem wrong, I'd be really happy. So many fans just want to dismiss her as a foolish drunk.

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T Vrana - Apr 12, 2007 5:40 am (#328 of 354)

DIE- I agree. In fact, I was a bit horrified by her portrayal in POA. Emma Thompson is a very fine actress, but Trelawney as a complete kook was a huge disappointment.

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Choices - Apr 12, 2007 9:52 am (#329 of 354)
Edited Apr 12, 2007 10:56 am

Laura - "And I hope you understand that too, Choices."

Not a problem, Laura. I'm just glad to see someone else thinks like I do about something. LOL :-)

I agree about the Thompson as Trelawney thing. I love Emma Thompson, but I did not like her portrayal of Trelawney. It was a bit too broad - I would like to see her portrayed with a little more finesse.

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 12, 2007 1:32 pm (#330 of 354)
Edited Apr 12, 2007 2:33 pm

Well,I love that theory considering that I am a firm believer in Harry's scar is a horcrux. Hats off to both of you!

I think Slughorn invited Sybil because she is the G.G. Granddaughter of the see-all Cassandra or maybe the invite went out to all teachers.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 13, 2007 6:11 am (#331 of 354)

I just heard that someone on John Granger's private forum also came up with that some time ago, but I'm not sure if it's the same person/people who came up with it here. But I still think it's a great idea. I love Emma Thompson, but I think that performance was over the top. It may have been the way she was directed, though. I wish Jo had tipped her off about how to play it the way she did Alan Rickman, Robbie Coltrane and Evanna Lynch.

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T Vrana - Apr 13, 2007 6:30 am (#332 of 354)

Perhaps not the place to discuss it, but I do blame direction. All of POA was a bit over the top and cartoonish.

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Neville Longbottom - Apr 13, 2007 12:04 pm (#333 of 354)

Trelawney is an over the top character. IMO, Emma Thompson portrayed her pretty well and accurately. I think she's a fraud and a comical character, with the exception of her real prophecies. Don't forget that according to McGonagall, she predicted the death of a student every year since her arrival in Hogwarts. Did she see Voldemort in all of them, too? Besides, on another group, there once was a post where someone searched for all Trelawney predictions and if they came true, and it turned out that she was right pretty much 50% of the time. Therefore guesswork. And really, given that she saw around 14 DADA teachers coming and going only since her arrival in Hogwarts, it was very easy to predict, that Lupin wouldn't be very long with them. I could have predicted that. Similarly, Neville breaking a cup wouldn't be very difficult to foresee either. I like Trelawney and feel sorry for her, really, but nonetheless she is mostly the over the top fraud from the third movie. Emma Thompson got her spot on. I do think that there are some subtleties in her character, but these are her real prophecies, when under trance. These show that she has some powers, but she can't control them. By the way, I totally expect a third prophecy in Deathly Hallows.

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wynnleaf - Apr 14, 2007 5:55 am (#334 of 354)

I agree with Neville. Trelawney's correct foretelling of the future is all very iffy except for the two true prophecies about Harry. Alot seems more like guesswork. McGonagall correctly guessed that Trelawney had predicted a death in POA. The reason she guessed that was because of Trelawney always making such a prediction. But if her yearly predictions of death had come true, people would have taken note of it rather than see her as a fraud.

Sybil is more correct in HBP, but that's when she's reading the cards. In other words, the cards are telling the future, and Sybil is just reading them. She can't even read them well enough to "get it," since when she sees the one about the dark young man she assumes it must be false. So in HBP, I think it's more that the cards are correct than that Sybil herself is making accurate predictions.

And yes, I think she'll make a third real prophecy in DH.

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 14, 2007 8:31 am (#335 of 354)

Great catch, Wynnleaf! I agree it was the cards that did the predicting not Sybil. Now, why didn't I see it that way?

I agree with those who say there will be a third prediction, channeled by Cassandra, of course. Poor Sybil, I think she will not live through book 7.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2007 9:44 am (#336 of 354)

I also believe that Trelawney will make a prediction in DH in the presence of Voldemort and that his anger over her prediction will be so violent as to bring about her death.

Mickey

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 14, 2007 2:49 pm (#337 of 354)

Ooh.. good one, Mickey!

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wynnleaf - Apr 14, 2007 3:36 pm (#338 of 354)

Mickey, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 14, 2007 5:27 pm (#339 of 354)

O Mickey, I hope not!!!!

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CrotonaPark44 - Apr 15, 2007 10:48 am (#340 of 354)

Slightly off topic:

Happy Birthday, Emma Thompson!

And now, back to Sybill Trelawney

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 15, 2007 6:50 pm (#341 of 354)

The problem with Sybill is so many of her prophecies LOOK wrong, but could be right, like the one about the dark hair and tragic losses. Looking back, it's spot on to say, "Well, Harry had Voldemort inside him!" but at first glance it looked wrong, and she was probably humiliated.

How many times does that have to happen to her before we accept that she may have lost faith in herself, but is still right quite a bit?

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Apr 16, 2007 8:34 am (#342 of 354)

I agree with you Die. I feel like Sibyll is right more than anyone, including herself gives her credit for, and that she has lost confidence in herself over the years.

It doesn't seem that she has any recolection of her prophecy about LV and Harry which she made to DD, and we know she doesn't remember the one she gave to Harry in POA about Wormtail returning to LV, so it seems all she remembers about her gift is a few unimportant right interpretations (Like about Neville and the cups, or Hermione leaving around Easter) and a bunch of wrong predictions. That's enough to kill anyone's self-confidence!!

I think Sibyll may come into her own so to speak in DH, and that she'll start to trust in her abilities, and with this new faith in herself, we'll see more correct predictions, and more important predictions...

-Jenn

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Soul Search - Apr 17, 2007 8:41 am (#343 of 354)
Edited Apr 17, 2007 9:44 am

I think we have to make a distinction between "Divination" and "Prophecy."

   Divination employs an artifice (tea leaves, tarot cards, etc.) and someone to "divine" (discover or understand without direct evidence) what is meant. Divination can be learned, although it may help if the diviner has a bit of the "inner eye." While the artifice may always be right, the diviner may not make the proper interpretation. For example, Harry's tea leaves properly told of a great black dog. Trelawney immediately jumped to the Grim, when, in fact, there was Sirius in his animagus form.

   Prophecy employs no artifice. Prophecies are given by a "seer," via an unknown mechanism. The meaning of the prophecy may not always be crystal clear. Trelawney's great-grandmother Cassandra was a celebrated "seer."

Trelawney is both a "diviner" and a "seer." She, of course, doesn't know she is a seer.

She does know the subject of divination and makes many accurate predictions. Problem is, she has no confidence in her subject or abilities. She thinks predictions have to be dire, so colors her own interpretations with predictions of doom. She fully expected Harry to die, so made up many predictions for his demise so she could claim she was right when the event actually occurred. She very much wants to live up to her illustrious great-grandparent's reputation, but confuses the world's view of herself, and divination in general, with nonsense predictions (for example, about Umbridge.)

I have been wondering if all the predictions, the Centaurs, Trelawney, and the few that Ron and Harry make (not the made up ones) actually tell the whole Harry Potter saga. We might want to take a look after we read Deathly Hallows.

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CrotonaPark44 - May 13, 2007 6:03 pm (#344 of 354)

Did Voldemort order the Death Eaters to kidnap Sybill Trelawney when they invaded Hogwarts so he could finally hear the complete prophecy?

Any opinions???

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Madame Pomfrey - May 14, 2007 5:16 am (#345 of 354)

That is a good question, Crotona! There is a thread "Malfoy's task and the Vow" under the Theories section that discusses just that. I think you might enjoy the read.

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CrotonaPark44 - May 14, 2007 1:26 pm (#346 of 354)

Thanks for the heads up, Madame Pomfrey

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PeskyPixie - Jan 2, 2008 11:05 pm (#347 of 354)

This is my first time on this thread, so I apologize if I'm bringing up points which have already been discussed.

I wonder how much Sibyl Trelawney actually manages to accidentally predict? During the school year of HBP, she keeps getting the lightning-struck tower tarot card for Dumbledore, and we know the significance of this.

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Madam Pince - Jan 4, 2008 8:04 am (#348 of 354)

I noticed yesterday while listening to the audiotape of PoA that Trelawney got all excited when Ron and Harry both stood up to leave the table after her "thirteen at dinner" prediction -- we weren't told specifically which one stood up first, but I thought at first it must've been Harry and thus she must've been right because he "died." But then upon further review, I think the prediction was "dies first" and that wouldn't have been right because Dumbledore was at that table and he died first...

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Anna L. Black - Jan 4, 2008 9:15 am (#349 of 354)

I think there was a discussion about this some time ago (not sure on which thread), that mentioned the fact that Dumbledore did rise first from his seat (at some point during the dinner). I don't remember the details, but I think that the conclusion was that this was a correct prediction.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 4, 2008 11:00 pm (#350 of 354)

I agree Anna, and I also don't remember the thread. Is one problem that arises when we have new members that bring up subjects that we have hashed through years ago. I agree with the new members that it is almost impossible to read through the threads, and I also realize that we, hmm, oldsters have already submitted our thoughts and ideas long ago, came to our conclusions, and quite frankly, don't care to repeat ourselves from years ago. It's no reflection upon the newbies, 'tis just retreading old ground for us "oldsters". Maybe a more extensive use of the search engine would enlighten newbies without extensive reading?

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2008 12:16 am (#351 of 354)

Interesting, methinks it was the Pesky one that brought this up.

don't feel that the DADA curse influences the behaviour and decisions of the teachers as much as guarantees that somehow or other these perfectly normal (the definition of 'normal' differs for each different DADA teacher, of course) decisions and occurrences will somehow arrange themselves into a situation which will remove the teacher from the position.



The character of the individual is not influenced by the curse, rather, the curse uses each individual's character and decisions to its advantage.

In light of the fact that Sybil has nothing to do with the DADA position, but she did teach, what?, sixteen years, and all of a sudden she "loses it" in one year? Did Moldy Voldy's curse just affect the , hmm, less than perfect canidates for the job of DADA teachers, or did it cover all the teachers at Hogwarts?

Seems interesting to me that after Dumbledore stood up to the Toad, and Sybil continued not only to stay at Hogwarts, but teached in conjunction with Firenz, aside from the "nag" comments, she really seemed to have no more problems in the interim until she made the tower predictions.

Mayhap Sibil's sherry tippling was increased due to the stress of the Toad, but was not brought on by the Toad? In other words, did Voldies curse apply to all the staff at Hogwarts, or just the DADA professors?

...toddles off feeling like I did a really bad job of getting my point across, but after a 12 hour day at work, things seem fuzzy, and it's not a warm fuzzy...

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PeskyPixie - Feb 11, 2008 4:02 pm (#352 of 354)

I've had a lot of fun going back through this thread. I especially like the following idea:

I don't know if anyone has found this but I saw it while reading last night and thought I might write it in Two of spades:conflict, seven of spades:an ill omen. ten of spades:violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man,possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner" p185 British edition HBP(chapter ten, right before the first lesson with Dumbledore.

-conflict: all that happens before The Lighting Struck Tower chapter -an ill omen:The Dark Mark -violence: Malfoy's Expelliarmus and the battle going on below(we are told there are shouts and screams) -Dark young man: Malfoy -Possibly troubled: Right , he is troubled -One who dislikes the Questioner:Dumbledore is the Questioner(He is interrogating Draco on how he did it all) and Draco does dislike the Questioner"

Very interesting. I also liked Choices' idea that Trelawney predicts a winter birthday for Harry as she's picking up the bit (now we know it really is a piece of soul) of Voldy within Harry. You know, she's not as big a fraud as even she believes herself to be! But more on that another day.

TBE, I interpreted Dumbledore's words to mean that the curse is placed upon the DADA position, but that's just me.

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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2008 9:35 am (#353 of 354)

It is interesting how everything she predicted came true, and yet that fact was never brought up in the books.

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Orion - Jun 15, 2008 9:42 am (#354 of 354)

Happens all the time. Ask Kassandra.