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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:14 am
The Mystery Slytherin (OotP)
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 11:28 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 7:04 pm
As I promised a few people on the St. Mungo's Fallout Shelter forum, I shall now share my Book 5 obsession that has occupied my mind since the first time I saw it in my first reading, has stayed with me through my 2nd-4th readings, and will surely continue to plague me through my fifth reading which I shall begin tonight.
Turn to page 445...
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail.
Having spent 4 books and well over 150 readings of Harry Potter lore looking for a Slytherin who stands out as different than the rest, this leapt out at me in a huge way.
Who is this 5th-year Slytherin boy?
This scene tells us several things about this individual:
1) He has 'seen death,' so even though Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Terrence Nott, whose fathers are known Death Eaters couldn't see them (leading me to think that they're sheltered, spoiled brats), this boy could, which means one of two things. Either a) he witnessed a death in his life or b) he's killed someone.
2) Harry didn't know his name. Harry's been given the names of several Slytherins, including Quidditch players, and those with whom he was sorted, and yet Harry couldn't place a name on this individual.
3) He was watching the horse eat with a 'great distate on his face.' This seems to disqualify the theory that it's possible this boy has killed someone, since he found the sight so distasteful, unless of course it was a ruse and this boy is one evil little pile of... er... never mind.
I've scoured the book far and wide, as well as the other 4 books for a mention of a 'stringy' Slytherin boy (or a similar adjective), and have thus far found nothing. I thought at first it might have been Terrence Nott, but the description of him we're given later in book 5 doesn't quite match up.
Can anyone offer any insight?
The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) thread index
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
Slytherin Prefect - Aug 30, 2003 11:28 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 7:04 pm
As I promised a few people on the St. Mungo's Fallout Shelter forum, I shall now share my Book 5 obsession that has occupied my mind since the first time I saw it in my first reading, has stayed with me through my 2nd-4th readings, and will surely continue to plague me through my fifth reading which I shall begin tonight.
Turn to page 445...
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail.
Having spent 4 books and well over 150 readings of Harry Potter lore looking for a Slytherin who stands out as different than the rest, this leapt out at me in a huge way.
Who is this 5th-year Slytherin boy?
This scene tells us several things about this individual:
1) He has 'seen death,' so even though Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Terrence Nott, whose fathers are known Death Eaters couldn't see them (leading me to think that they're sheltered, spoiled brats), this boy could, which means one of two things. Either a) he witnessed a death in his life or b) he's killed someone.
2) Harry didn't know his name. Harry's been given the names of several Slytherins, including Quidditch players, and those with whom he was sorted, and yet Harry couldn't place a name on this individual.
3) He was watching the horse eat with a 'great distate on his face.' This seems to disqualify the theory that it's possible this boy has killed someone, since he found the sight so distasteful, unless of course it was a ruse and this boy is one evil little pile of... er... never mind.
I've scoured the book far and wide, as well as the other 4 books for a mention of a 'stringy' Slytherin boy (or a similar adjective), and have thus far found nothing. I thought at first it might have been Terrence Nott, but the description of him we're given later in book 5 doesn't quite match up.
Can anyone offer any insight?
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Last edited by Elanor on Sat May 14, 2011 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:20 am
Hem Hem - Aug 31, 2003 12:29 am (#1 of 491)
Theodore Nott was described after the Quibbler article as "weedy." Harry didn't know the weedy boy's name either, until Hermione told him. Nott could be the guy who sees thestrals.
Question is, if the mystery boy IS Nott, is who did he see die? We know his father is a Death Eater, however, Harry has never seen this boy taunt him before, so he must not be an active meber in the unnofficial "sons of Death Eaters" club (aka Death Nibblers, right?). Perhaps he saw a death in the hands of the DEs. Perhaps it was someone who he cared for, whose death led him to doubt his father's principles.
One other reference that I find interesting is that Senior Nott stood stooped behind Crabbe and Goyle at the rebirthing party, and Theodore Nott stood behind them as well, when the thestrals were out.
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Slytherin Prefect - Aug 31, 2003 12:34 am (#2 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
But if Nott were the boy, then why wouldn't he have been introduced as the boy from the ComC class as opposed to the 'weedy' kid?
Weedy and Stringy aren't exactly mutually exclusive opposites, but they're not too close together either...
'Death Nibblers.' I like that. ^_^
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timrew - Aug 31, 2003 4:31 am (#3 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
S.P., I posted this on the EZBoard thread about JKR often playing on words. For example, she'll have Sirius give a 'barking' laugh.
I think she's doing it again here with Nott, as in 'stringy knot'. It's a play on words, I think pointing to who the Slytherin boy is.
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Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 31, 2003 4:49 am (#4 of 491)
I think on the temporary boards people were discussing whether Nott was the one that JKR described as a good Slytherin.
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Olivia Wood - Aug 31, 2003 7:13 am (#5 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
One thing I think that I think points to Theodore Nott being the thestral-seeing, 'good' Slytherin, is the suspicious absence of any mention of him after the MoM fiasco. Wasn't Nott the Death Eater who got injured in the Chamber of Prophecy and was then abandoned by the other Death Eaters? Even if he didn't die, he must have been captured with the other Death Eaters, and if I were Theodore Nott, and my father just got sent to prison/died, I'd be really mad at somebody. He wasn't with Draco, Gregory and Vincent when they were attempting vengence, which leads me to believe he's going to be mad at the Death Eaters, hence the whole maybe being good thing.
Also, Nott is the only other fifth-year Slytherin boy that's ever been mentioned, assuming Blaise Zabini is a girl, which makes the probability of the other Slytherin at the CoMC class be him pretty high, IMO.
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rettoP yrraH - Aug 31, 2003 9:01 am (#6 of 491)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Well if its nott nott who is it? I think its Voldiwarts son...Voldi and Bellex had a nice little boy and named him Herman.
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 10:37 am (#7 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Herman, huh?
Blaise is traditionally a boy's name, but the recent trend of naming girls with boys' names (I think it started with Kelly ) has made this Slytherin's gender confusing.
I'd agree with SP that there would be a more specific connection if the COMC boy were Nott. Maybe Blaise is stringy and Nott is weedy?
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timrew - Aug 31, 2003 10:57 am (#8 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No, knots are definitely stringy!
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Jim the Potty - Aug 31, 2003 11:05 am (#9 of 491)
President of the Potties, forum member since the beginning, never online
You could tie weeds up in a knot!
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 11:10 am (#10 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Reminds me of the joke where a string goes into a restaurant and the waiter refuses to serve him by telling him "NO STRINGS ALLOWED!". The string goes outside, ties himself up and messes up his ends and walks back in. The waiter says, "I thought I told you we don't serve strings!" and the string answers exactly what I say to the question of whether Theodore is the boy in COMC (to bring it back on topic here)
"I'm a frayed knot"
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zeuspro - Aug 31, 2003 11:34 am (#11 of 491)
Blaise Zabini isnt in the english books
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 11:39 am (#12 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Blaise is mentioned once as being the last person sorted in PS/SS. That's the only reason we know he even exists.
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Hermione Joy - Aug 31, 2003 12:26 pm (#13 of 491)
We were talking about Theodore Nott on the temporary forum, and I think it's entirely possible that Nott is the boy who could see thestrals. I found it interesting that Umbridge cut Hagrid off just before Hagrid could say the boy's name. Maybe JKR was leaving us a clue by having Harry formally made aware of Theodore's name later in the book...Anyway, I have a feeling we'll learn more about the mystery Slytherin soon-JKR doesn't usually drop names for no reason.
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Sly Girl - Aug 31, 2003 4:05 pm (#14 of 491)
She also has a nasty habit of interupting people just when they're about to say something important too.... So that's two strikes.. the mysterious Slytherin is important.
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TGF - Aug 31, 2003 5:14 pm (#15 of 491)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I too assumed that it was Nott... I see no reason why it shouldn't be Nott. But frankly, whether he's Nott or not (har har), there's little we can really speculate about at this point. We just don't know enough about Theo Nott to put him in a camp or determine his loyalties.
I'm sure he'll turn up in the next two books, but before that...
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Catatonic Reaction - Aug 31, 2003 10:59 pm (#16 of 491)
I figured Blaise Zabini, if 'it' is a boy at all. Blaise is a pretty feminine name for a guy anyways.
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Luna Lovegood - Sep 3, 2003 3:53 am (#17 of 491)
Name: Teresa Occupation: Student
Weeds in a knot? I doubt it. I always thought Blaise Zabini was a girl. I think that the thestral-seeing boy was probably Nott. Weedy and stringy aren't really that different.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 8:14 am (#18 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
According to Dictionary.com:
weed•y : 3. Of a scrawny build; spindly or gawky.
string•y : 2. Slender and sinewy; wiry.
I dunno, I think they're close enough...
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 3, 2003 9:55 am (#19 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
I think it was not Nott. Not that I am certain, mind you. It's just that Rowling does not say Harry recoginized Nott when Hermione had to mention whom he was. Why did not Hermione whisper who Nott was in the forrest. It would not be that hard.
All in all, it is truly a knotty problem. Of course, all this Nott speculation might be for naught, if Rowling decides Nott is not important enough to bother with.
Marcus
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Sly Girl - Sep 3, 2003 12:50 pm (#20 of 491)
LOL Welcome back, Prefect Marcus. That was a great post.
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Dr Filibuster - Sep 3, 2003 12:54 pm (#21 of 491)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
If it's not Nott who've we got?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
So...Blaise sounds like a girl but could be a boy then?? Wasn't somebody with the surname Greengrass in Slytherin (as shown by JK in documentary)? The first name looks like Queenie (definately a girl, but I may have misread it.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 3:04 pm (#22 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I always thought Blaise was one of Pansy Parkinson's gang of Slytherin girls...
And as for why JKR didn't describe Nott as the 'weedy Slytherin from CoMC who could see the thestrals' because that would be giving it all away.
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 3:36 pm (#23 of 491)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hm, I'm with the group that has always thought Blaise was a male name.
Perhaps the new kid was a transfer or an exchange student whose parents thought he'd be safer at Hogwarts under Dumbledore ;-).
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Landman - Sep 3, 2003 6:20 pm (#24 of 491)
To be, or Nott to be -- that is the question?
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Mrs. Weasley - Sep 3, 2003 6:20 pm (#25 of 491)
Blaise a feminine name? Oh, not at all. Recall that Saint Blaise (who was an Armenian bishop and physician) is the patron saint of throat diseases. I am not kidding. When I was a child, we would have our throats blessed on St. Blaise's Day to ward against whooping cough and fishbones getting stuck. No clues in that name, I don't suppose.
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Monica K - Sep 4, 2003 4:40 am (#26 of 491)
My copy of "Lives of the Saints" says St Blaise was also a healer of animals. He lived as a hermit in the woods and animals would seek him out in their time of need, but not disturb him in prayer. I also remember getting my throat blessed in catholic school. The priest would come around to all of the classrooms and bless us with the crossed candlesticks because Blaise had once saved a child with a fishbone stuck in their throat and I believe he extracted it or popped it out with the candlesticks. He was martyred for protecting animals from huntsmen(he was combed to death with wool combs, which is why he is also associated with people in the wool trade). St. Blaise is one of the "14 helpers".
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 1:20 pm (#27 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
And let's not forget Blaise Pascal. I have only ever met men named Blaise (2, to be exact) so I didn't even think of it for a girl back in book 1.
Anyway, I think the fact that nearly everyone on this forum automatically thought, "Oh. That must be Theodore Nott" makes a good argument for him being the "mystery" Slytherin. But we leave out the critical element that Care of Magical Creatures is an "elective" course at Hogwarts. Therefore, even though this person is also in 5th year (well, obviously if he's in Harry's class), it is conceivable that Harry wouldn't necessarily know him - or at least have noticed him - until now. He certainly hasn't apparently done anything before that would particularly stand out to Harry. Harry has only been taking this class for 2 years, and I don't recall them having "double" CoMC. Only that they have it with the Slytherins. Considering all the activities that go on in this class - and the fact that HRH are frequently using the time to conspire or meet with Hagrid, it's a wonder Harry recognises any of his classmates.
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Arrows' Biggest Fan - Sep 5, 2003 1:24 pm (#28 of 491)
There's a heck of a lot JKR doesn't tell us, that Harry almost certainly knows. For a book jammed full with detail, a lot is left out: the two missing Gryffindor girls, the names of a few teachers, the identity of the Slytherin boy being discussed. But in OotP, British edition, chapter 12, page 221, something is written that practically confirms a theory I have had for some time: "He [Harry] had barely spoken to anyone about this [Diggory's death], least of all thirty eagerly listening classmates." So there are not two missing Gryffindor girls, but 22 unnamed students, who share about three domitories per year per sex with the named students (Harry shouts at Seamus, in OotP, ch. 11, pg. 197 (GB), "If you've got a problem sharing a dormitory with me, go and ask McGonagall if you can be moved ... stop your mummy worrying - ", so there obviously are more dorms for that year) and students which we didn't see at the Sorting, who are in Harry's year, appear from nowhere (i.e. Michael Corner). In double classes each class is split into two, so Gryffindor A (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Dean and Seamus ...) go with Slytherin A (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson, but probably NOT Millicent Bulstrode, as she doesn't get much mention), and Gryffindor B go with Slytherin B, etc., etc.. How come nobody else has picked this up?
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S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 1:46 pm (#29 of 491)
Let it snow!
I'm not too sure about all that Arrows. Also, I think Corner is older than Harry.
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Arrows' Biggest Fan - Sep 5, 2003 3:25 pm (#30 of 491)
Maybe, but Anthony Goldstein definately is in Harry's year (he's Ravenclaw prefect). Corner was the only one I could think of. Not that it matters anyway.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 8:19 pm (#31 of 491)
Let it snow!
Goldstein didn't come out of nowhere, though. He was mentioned in the Sorting Ceremony. I can understand Harry not knowing him as he hasn't had any classes with the Ravenclaws of his year.
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 5, 2003 10:14 pm (#32 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
Ah, the Blaise question again. I can't tell you as a fanfiction writer focused on Slytherin how many times I've tried to figure out whether this individual is male or female.. -_-
So, I simply have to do without this character for the time being...
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Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 7:57 am (#33 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I think he should be a girl, just to even it all out; we know 4 6th year Slytherin boys (Draco Malfoy, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle and Theodore Nott), and three 6th year Slytherin girls (Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bulstrode and Blaise Zabini.)
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 8:50 am (#34 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
According to Babynamer, Blaise is a male name, Celtic in origin and means Firebrand. I always assumed Zabini, Blaise was male.
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Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 10:51 am (#35 of 491)
meep
Blaise may be a boy, but I do know a girl named Tyler, a boy named Loren and another girl named Billie. We also shouldn't forget our good friends Alex and Casey... they're boys and girls
I really never noticed that there were other dormitories for the same year in the same house, but after what Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, there isn't much proof against it... is there? I dont know, however, if they are going to have class with only some of them... like JKR said, and Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, a class of about thirty .
However, do i think the stringie kid is Nott, I always thought it was. It never crossed my mind it wasnt...
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 11:02 am (#36 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Oh, I know Blaise can be used for a girl as well. My youngest daughter has a boy name even though we feminized it (Kierynn rather than the male Kieran). I think in England that most people tend to stick within the gender boundries more than the US does. That is why I think Blaise is a boy.
I think the unidentified Slytherian seeing thestrals is Nott as well. Course...I thought Arabella Figg was a shoe-in for DADA
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 11:53 am (#37 of 491)
Let it snow!
Well alot of modern feminine names started out as masculine names originally, like Ashley, so you never know....
Gabrielle said: ->I really never noticed that there were other dormitories for the same year in the same house, but after what Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, there isn't much proof against it... is there? I dont know, however, if they are going to have class with only some of them... like JKR said, and Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, a class of about thirty.<-
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, for some strange reason. When the question was first raised about how many kids attended Hogwarts, it was suggested that there might be other Gryffindor students in Harry's year that we simply don't know about. The reasoning for this was that, during the Sorting Ceremony, there are several instances where Harry loses track of the names and his attention is focused on something else in the Hall, and thus there could have been names called we just didn't hear. Also, the ceremony doesn't seem to take very long but Harry describes it as a long wait and this could point to more students in Harry's year. A third reason for believing this is that Harry always described what seemed like a large group of Gryffindors waiting by the classrooms between classes, yet we only know of 8, not exactly a large number....
So, I guess it could be possible....
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Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 1:19 pm (#38 of 491)
It's funny, I read a fan fic a million years ago where Blaise was most definitely male and ever since then I've never even thought differently. Hmm.. the seedy influence of fan fic.
I read this entire thread and I have to say I think the kid is Nott too. But I also thought Arabella would be the next DADA teacher too. (Hides head with Denise..)
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timrew - Sep 6, 2003 3:42 pm (#39 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
To me, who lives in the UK and has never known anyone with the name Blaise, the name looks and sounds feminine; and there's the 'e' ending, which would make it feminine in French. I think a guy would be called, 'Blaze', like a WWF wrestler!
Also, there were a series of books back in the Seventies (I think), which featured a female James Bond type character, whose name was Modesty Blaise. Okay, I know it's her surname, but maybe that's what makes me think of Blaise Zabini as a girl. There again, I could be totally wrong!
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 3:51 pm (#40 of 491)
Let it snow!
I can't find where Blaize Zabini is mentioned in OotP and it's driving me crazy (short trip, I know). Can anyone help?
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 4:08 pm (#41 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Blaise was mentioned in S/PS. Since the boy seeing the thestrals is in Slytherin but no name mentioned, it was brought up it could be Blaise.
Tim ...how funny! I see Blaise and think it is masculine over the Blaze feminine!
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 4:10 pm (#42 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought for sure that I'd seen it again in OotP, though.... Hm, maybe I am just going crazy...finally....
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timrew - Sep 6, 2003 4:13 pm (#43 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Two nations divided by a common language, Denise!
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Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 7:12 pm (#44 of 491)
meep
Ahh, Oscar Wilde...
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 7, 2003 1:18 am (#45 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Tim - i'm from the UK also and i've been following this discussion with interest for exactly the same reason. It never occured to me that Blaise was a male name, I assumed it was of French origin as well. But then again I know male and female lesleys/leslies, so I guess you can never tell...
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 7, 2003 2:01 am (#46 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
I must interject something here. Why are we all assuming just because our mystery Slytherin can see Thestrals that he is somehow 'good?'
He didn't seem taken aback by it as did Harry and Neville, rather he was looking on the Thestral eating the flesh with disgust.
All this means is that the kid has "seen death." This could mean a hundred different things. It could mean that his father is a Death Eater and he personally witnessed a murder. It could mean that he watched one of his parents die at the hands of an Auror.
Or, it could possibly mean that the kid has killed someone himself...
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 3:26 am (#47 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't assume that the kid who saw the thestrals is a good guy, SP. But there again, I hold out hopes that there is ONE person in Slytherin who will be introduced in book 6 or 7 as a 'good' guy or girl.
Like the Sorting Hat said. the houses must unite; and I never for one minute assumed all of Slytherin was bad - despite what Hagrid, Ron, or anyone else said.
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 7, 2003 3:59 am (#48 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
Trust me, Tim... There isn't a soul alive who wishes for a stand-out Slytherin any more than yours truly. But I have lost my faith that is going to happen.
I've been clutching at our mystery Slytherin since my first reading, and as I go into my sixth reading of OoP, I'm still going to be looking for anything, anything at all to give more insight into this fellow, as I honestly do not believe he is Terrence Nott. Then again, I can't say that he is Terrence Nott either.
I only hope that my sixth reading will be more enlightening than 2-5...
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 6:16 am (#49 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Edited by Denise P. Sep 7, 2003 7:43 am
And good luck with the sixth reading, SP. If you spot anything, let us know! Still on the fourth, myself.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 11:14 am (#50 of 491)
Let it snow!
It's Theodore Nott, SP, not Terrance (I think you're thinking of Terry Boot, Ravenclaw)....
Tim, I don't know if you've seen Josh's thread, The House of Slytherin - What Went Wrong?, but I posted something on there that might make you feel a bit better. At the end of the year feast in GoF, when DD asks everyone to stand and raise their glasses to Cedric, everyone in the hall did, including Slytherin House. When he asked them to do the same for Harry, "Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and many of the other Slytherins.. remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched." The text says "many", not "all" so at least some of the Slytherins don't hold anything against Harry or don't support Voldemort....
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Theodore Nott was described after the Quibbler article as "weedy." Harry didn't know the weedy boy's name either, until Hermione told him. Nott could be the guy who sees thestrals.
Question is, if the mystery boy IS Nott, is who did he see die? We know his father is a Death Eater, however, Harry has never seen this boy taunt him before, so he must not be an active meber in the unnofficial "sons of Death Eaters" club (aka Death Nibblers, right?). Perhaps he saw a death in the hands of the DEs. Perhaps it was someone who he cared for, whose death led him to doubt his father's principles.
One other reference that I find interesting is that Senior Nott stood stooped behind Crabbe and Goyle at the rebirthing party, and Theodore Nott stood behind them as well, when the thestrals were out.
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Slytherin Prefect - Aug 31, 2003 12:34 am (#2 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
But if Nott were the boy, then why wouldn't he have been introduced as the boy from the ComC class as opposed to the 'weedy' kid?
Weedy and Stringy aren't exactly mutually exclusive opposites, but they're not too close together either...
'Death Nibblers.' I like that. ^_^
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timrew - Aug 31, 2003 4:31 am (#3 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
S.P., I posted this on the EZBoard thread about JKR often playing on words. For example, she'll have Sirius give a 'barking' laugh.
I think she's doing it again here with Nott, as in 'stringy knot'. It's a play on words, I think pointing to who the Slytherin boy is.
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Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 31, 2003 4:49 am (#4 of 491)
I think on the temporary boards people were discussing whether Nott was the one that JKR described as a good Slytherin.
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Olivia Wood - Aug 31, 2003 7:13 am (#5 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
One thing I think that I think points to Theodore Nott being the thestral-seeing, 'good' Slytherin, is the suspicious absence of any mention of him after the MoM fiasco. Wasn't Nott the Death Eater who got injured in the Chamber of Prophecy and was then abandoned by the other Death Eaters? Even if he didn't die, he must have been captured with the other Death Eaters, and if I were Theodore Nott, and my father just got sent to prison/died, I'd be really mad at somebody. He wasn't with Draco, Gregory and Vincent when they were attempting vengence, which leads me to believe he's going to be mad at the Death Eaters, hence the whole maybe being good thing.
Also, Nott is the only other fifth-year Slytherin boy that's ever been mentioned, assuming Blaise Zabini is a girl, which makes the probability of the other Slytherin at the CoMC class be him pretty high, IMO.
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rettoP yrraH - Aug 31, 2003 9:01 am (#6 of 491)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Well if its nott nott who is it? I think its Voldiwarts son...Voldi and Bellex had a nice little boy and named him Herman.
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 10:37 am (#7 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Herman, huh?
Blaise is traditionally a boy's name, but the recent trend of naming girls with boys' names (I think it started with Kelly ) has made this Slytherin's gender confusing.
I'd agree with SP that there would be a more specific connection if the COMC boy were Nott. Maybe Blaise is stringy and Nott is weedy?
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timrew - Aug 31, 2003 10:57 am (#8 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No, knots are definitely stringy!
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Jim the Potty - Aug 31, 2003 11:05 am (#9 of 491)
President of the Potties, forum member since the beginning, never online
You could tie weeds up in a knot!
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 11:10 am (#10 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Reminds me of the joke where a string goes into a restaurant and the waiter refuses to serve him by telling him "NO STRINGS ALLOWED!". The string goes outside, ties himself up and messes up his ends and walks back in. The waiter says, "I thought I told you we don't serve strings!" and the string answers exactly what I say to the question of whether Theodore is the boy in COMC (to bring it back on topic here)
"I'm a frayed knot"
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zeuspro - Aug 31, 2003 11:34 am (#11 of 491)
Blaise Zabini isnt in the english books
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Carina - Aug 31, 2003 11:39 am (#12 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Blaise is mentioned once as being the last person sorted in PS/SS. That's the only reason we know he even exists.
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Hermione Joy - Aug 31, 2003 12:26 pm (#13 of 491)
We were talking about Theodore Nott on the temporary forum, and I think it's entirely possible that Nott is the boy who could see thestrals. I found it interesting that Umbridge cut Hagrid off just before Hagrid could say the boy's name. Maybe JKR was leaving us a clue by having Harry formally made aware of Theodore's name later in the book...Anyway, I have a feeling we'll learn more about the mystery Slytherin soon-JKR doesn't usually drop names for no reason.
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Sly Girl - Aug 31, 2003 4:05 pm (#14 of 491)
She also has a nasty habit of interupting people just when they're about to say something important too.... So that's two strikes.. the mysterious Slytherin is important.
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TGF - Aug 31, 2003 5:14 pm (#15 of 491)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I too assumed that it was Nott... I see no reason why it shouldn't be Nott. But frankly, whether he's Nott or not (har har), there's little we can really speculate about at this point. We just don't know enough about Theo Nott to put him in a camp or determine his loyalties.
I'm sure he'll turn up in the next two books, but before that...
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Catatonic Reaction - Aug 31, 2003 10:59 pm (#16 of 491)
I figured Blaise Zabini, if 'it' is a boy at all. Blaise is a pretty feminine name for a guy anyways.
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Luna Lovegood - Sep 3, 2003 3:53 am (#17 of 491)
Name: Teresa Occupation: Student
Weeds in a knot? I doubt it. I always thought Blaise Zabini was a girl. I think that the thestral-seeing boy was probably Nott. Weedy and stringy aren't really that different.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 8:14 am (#18 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
According to Dictionary.com:
weed•y : 3. Of a scrawny build; spindly or gawky.
string•y : 2. Slender and sinewy; wiry.
I dunno, I think they're close enough...
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 3, 2003 9:55 am (#19 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
I think it was not Nott. Not that I am certain, mind you. It's just that Rowling does not say Harry recoginized Nott when Hermione had to mention whom he was. Why did not Hermione whisper who Nott was in the forrest. It would not be that hard.
All in all, it is truly a knotty problem. Of course, all this Nott speculation might be for naught, if Rowling decides Nott is not important enough to bother with.
Marcus
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Sly Girl - Sep 3, 2003 12:50 pm (#20 of 491)
LOL Welcome back, Prefect Marcus. That was a great post.
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Dr Filibuster - Sep 3, 2003 12:54 pm (#21 of 491)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
If it's not Nott who've we got?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
So...Blaise sounds like a girl but could be a boy then?? Wasn't somebody with the surname Greengrass in Slytherin (as shown by JK in documentary)? The first name looks like Queenie (definately a girl, but I may have misread it.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 3:04 pm (#22 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I always thought Blaise was one of Pansy Parkinson's gang of Slytherin girls...
And as for why JKR didn't describe Nott as the 'weedy Slytherin from CoMC who could see the thestrals' because that would be giving it all away.
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 3:36 pm (#23 of 491)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hm, I'm with the group that has always thought Blaise was a male name.
Perhaps the new kid was a transfer or an exchange student whose parents thought he'd be safer at Hogwarts under Dumbledore ;-).
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Landman - Sep 3, 2003 6:20 pm (#24 of 491)
To be, or Nott to be -- that is the question?
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Mrs. Weasley - Sep 3, 2003 6:20 pm (#25 of 491)
Blaise a feminine name? Oh, not at all. Recall that Saint Blaise (who was an Armenian bishop and physician) is the patron saint of throat diseases. I am not kidding. When I was a child, we would have our throats blessed on St. Blaise's Day to ward against whooping cough and fishbones getting stuck. No clues in that name, I don't suppose.
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Monica K - Sep 4, 2003 4:40 am (#26 of 491)
My copy of "Lives of the Saints" says St Blaise was also a healer of animals. He lived as a hermit in the woods and animals would seek him out in their time of need, but not disturb him in prayer. I also remember getting my throat blessed in catholic school. The priest would come around to all of the classrooms and bless us with the crossed candlesticks because Blaise had once saved a child with a fishbone stuck in their throat and I believe he extracted it or popped it out with the candlesticks. He was martyred for protecting animals from huntsmen(he was combed to death with wool combs, which is why he is also associated with people in the wool trade). St. Blaise is one of the "14 helpers".
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 1:20 pm (#27 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
And let's not forget Blaise Pascal. I have only ever met men named Blaise (2, to be exact) so I didn't even think of it for a girl back in book 1.
Anyway, I think the fact that nearly everyone on this forum automatically thought, "Oh. That must be Theodore Nott" makes a good argument for him being the "mystery" Slytherin. But we leave out the critical element that Care of Magical Creatures is an "elective" course at Hogwarts. Therefore, even though this person is also in 5th year (well, obviously if he's in Harry's class), it is conceivable that Harry wouldn't necessarily know him - or at least have noticed him - until now. He certainly hasn't apparently done anything before that would particularly stand out to Harry. Harry has only been taking this class for 2 years, and I don't recall them having "double" CoMC. Only that they have it with the Slytherins. Considering all the activities that go on in this class - and the fact that HRH are frequently using the time to conspire or meet with Hagrid, it's a wonder Harry recognises any of his classmates.
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Arrows' Biggest Fan - Sep 5, 2003 1:24 pm (#28 of 491)
There's a heck of a lot JKR doesn't tell us, that Harry almost certainly knows. For a book jammed full with detail, a lot is left out: the two missing Gryffindor girls, the names of a few teachers, the identity of the Slytherin boy being discussed. But in OotP, British edition, chapter 12, page 221, something is written that practically confirms a theory I have had for some time: "He [Harry] had barely spoken to anyone about this [Diggory's death], least of all thirty eagerly listening classmates." So there are not two missing Gryffindor girls, but 22 unnamed students, who share about three domitories per year per sex with the named students (Harry shouts at Seamus, in OotP, ch. 11, pg. 197 (GB), "If you've got a problem sharing a dormitory with me, go and ask McGonagall if you can be moved ... stop your mummy worrying - ", so there obviously are more dorms for that year) and students which we didn't see at the Sorting, who are in Harry's year, appear from nowhere (i.e. Michael Corner). In double classes each class is split into two, so Gryffindor A (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Dean and Seamus ...) go with Slytherin A (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson, but probably NOT Millicent Bulstrode, as she doesn't get much mention), and Gryffindor B go with Slytherin B, etc., etc.. How come nobody else has picked this up?
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S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 1:46 pm (#29 of 491)
Let it snow!
I'm not too sure about all that Arrows. Also, I think Corner is older than Harry.
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Arrows' Biggest Fan - Sep 5, 2003 3:25 pm (#30 of 491)
Maybe, but Anthony Goldstein definately is in Harry's year (he's Ravenclaw prefect). Corner was the only one I could think of. Not that it matters anyway.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 8:19 pm (#31 of 491)
Let it snow!
Goldstein didn't come out of nowhere, though. He was mentioned in the Sorting Ceremony. I can understand Harry not knowing him as he hasn't had any classes with the Ravenclaws of his year.
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 5, 2003 10:14 pm (#32 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
Ah, the Blaise question again. I can't tell you as a fanfiction writer focused on Slytherin how many times I've tried to figure out whether this individual is male or female.. -_-
So, I simply have to do without this character for the time being...
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Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 7:57 am (#33 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I think he should be a girl, just to even it all out; we know 4 6th year Slytherin boys (Draco Malfoy, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle and Theodore Nott), and three 6th year Slytherin girls (Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bulstrode and Blaise Zabini.)
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 8:50 am (#34 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
According to Babynamer, Blaise is a male name, Celtic in origin and means Firebrand. I always assumed Zabini, Blaise was male.
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Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 10:51 am (#35 of 491)
meep
Blaise may be a boy, but I do know a girl named Tyler, a boy named Loren and another girl named Billie. We also shouldn't forget our good friends Alex and Casey... they're boys and girls
I really never noticed that there were other dormitories for the same year in the same house, but after what Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, there isn't much proof against it... is there? I dont know, however, if they are going to have class with only some of them... like JKR said, and Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, a class of about thirty .
However, do i think the stringie kid is Nott, I always thought it was. It never crossed my mind it wasnt...
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 11:02 am (#36 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Oh, I know Blaise can be used for a girl as well. My youngest daughter has a boy name even though we feminized it (Kierynn rather than the male Kieran). I think in England that most people tend to stick within the gender boundries more than the US does. That is why I think Blaise is a boy.
I think the unidentified Slytherian seeing thestrals is Nott as well. Course...I thought Arabella Figg was a shoe-in for DADA
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 11:53 am (#37 of 491)
Let it snow!
Well alot of modern feminine names started out as masculine names originally, like Ashley, so you never know....
Gabrielle said: ->I really never noticed that there were other dormitories for the same year in the same house, but after what Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, there isn't much proof against it... is there? I dont know, however, if they are going to have class with only some of them... like JKR said, and Arrow's Biggest Fan pointed out, a class of about thirty.<-
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, for some strange reason. When the question was first raised about how many kids attended Hogwarts, it was suggested that there might be other Gryffindor students in Harry's year that we simply don't know about. The reasoning for this was that, during the Sorting Ceremony, there are several instances where Harry loses track of the names and his attention is focused on something else in the Hall, and thus there could have been names called we just didn't hear. Also, the ceremony doesn't seem to take very long but Harry describes it as a long wait and this could point to more students in Harry's year. A third reason for believing this is that Harry always described what seemed like a large group of Gryffindors waiting by the classrooms between classes, yet we only know of 8, not exactly a large number....
So, I guess it could be possible....
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Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 1:19 pm (#38 of 491)
It's funny, I read a fan fic a million years ago where Blaise was most definitely male and ever since then I've never even thought differently. Hmm.. the seedy influence of fan fic.
I read this entire thread and I have to say I think the kid is Nott too. But I also thought Arabella would be the next DADA teacher too. (Hides head with Denise..)
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timrew - Sep 6, 2003 3:42 pm (#39 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
To me, who lives in the UK and has never known anyone with the name Blaise, the name looks and sounds feminine; and there's the 'e' ending, which would make it feminine in French. I think a guy would be called, 'Blaze', like a WWF wrestler!
Also, there were a series of books back in the Seventies (I think), which featured a female James Bond type character, whose name was Modesty Blaise. Okay, I know it's her surname, but maybe that's what makes me think of Blaise Zabini as a girl. There again, I could be totally wrong!
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 3:51 pm (#40 of 491)
Let it snow!
I can't find where Blaize Zabini is mentioned in OotP and it's driving me crazy (short trip, I know). Can anyone help?
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Denise P. - Sep 6, 2003 4:08 pm (#41 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Blaise was mentioned in S/PS. Since the boy seeing the thestrals is in Slytherin but no name mentioned, it was brought up it could be Blaise.
Tim ...how funny! I see Blaise and think it is masculine over the Blaze feminine!
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S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 4:10 pm (#42 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought for sure that I'd seen it again in OotP, though.... Hm, maybe I am just going crazy...finally....
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timrew - Sep 6, 2003 4:13 pm (#43 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Two nations divided by a common language, Denise!
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Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 7:12 pm (#44 of 491)
meep
Ahh, Oscar Wilde...
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 7, 2003 1:18 am (#45 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Tim - i'm from the UK also and i've been following this discussion with interest for exactly the same reason. It never occured to me that Blaise was a male name, I assumed it was of French origin as well. But then again I know male and female lesleys/leslies, so I guess you can never tell...
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 7, 2003 2:01 am (#46 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
I must interject something here. Why are we all assuming just because our mystery Slytherin can see Thestrals that he is somehow 'good?'
He didn't seem taken aback by it as did Harry and Neville, rather he was looking on the Thestral eating the flesh with disgust.
All this means is that the kid has "seen death." This could mean a hundred different things. It could mean that his father is a Death Eater and he personally witnessed a murder. It could mean that he watched one of his parents die at the hands of an Auror.
Or, it could possibly mean that the kid has killed someone himself...
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 3:26 am (#47 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't assume that the kid who saw the thestrals is a good guy, SP. But there again, I hold out hopes that there is ONE person in Slytherin who will be introduced in book 6 or 7 as a 'good' guy or girl.
Like the Sorting Hat said. the houses must unite; and I never for one minute assumed all of Slytherin was bad - despite what Hagrid, Ron, or anyone else said.
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 7, 2003 3:59 am (#48 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
Trust me, Tim... There isn't a soul alive who wishes for a stand-out Slytherin any more than yours truly. But I have lost my faith that is going to happen.
I've been clutching at our mystery Slytherin since my first reading, and as I go into my sixth reading of OoP, I'm still going to be looking for anything, anything at all to give more insight into this fellow, as I honestly do not believe he is Terrence Nott. Then again, I can't say that he is Terrence Nott either.
I only hope that my sixth reading will be more enlightening than 2-5...
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 6:16 am (#49 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Edited by Denise P. Sep 7, 2003 7:43 am
And good luck with the sixth reading, SP. If you spot anything, let us know! Still on the fourth, myself.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 11:14 am (#50 of 491)
Let it snow!
It's Theodore Nott, SP, not Terrance (I think you're thinking of Terry Boot, Ravenclaw)....
Tim, I don't know if you've seen Josh's thread, The House of Slytherin - What Went Wrong?, but I posted something on there that might make you feel a bit better. At the end of the year feast in GoF, when DD asks everyone to stand and raise their glasses to Cedric, everyone in the hall did, including Slytherin House. When he asked them to do the same for Harry, "Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and many of the other Slytherins.. remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched." The text says "many", not "all" so at least some of the Slytherins don't hold anything against Harry or don't support Voldemort....
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 51 to 100)
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Professor Kosh - Sep 7, 2003 11:37 am (#51 of 491)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Verily, S.E. Jones! After I saw you point that out (I was in the midst of rereading OoP) I too gained hope that we will see some good come out of Slytherin. My fingers are crossed!
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 12:08 pm (#52 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Well spotted, Sarah! I remember that bit now. There's hope that we might see a good Slytherin yet. I knew they couldn't ALL be potential Death Eaters.
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 7, 2003 12:51 pm (#53 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Even if he/she is a DE in waiting - who said that was a bad thing? Sirius/Snape for example... neither of them ended up as their parents would have liked. By the time you reach 15/16 you tend to develop your own sense of direction....
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zelmia - Sep 8, 2003 3:02 pm (#54 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Just a quick note: If Blaise is French in origin (Blaise Pascal, for example), then the name, whether masculine or feminine, would indeed have an "e" on the end regardless, in order to allow the "s" to be pronounced. If there were no "e" you would think that the "s" was silent (thus pronoucing the word "Blay") - as it is in francais or palais. Is this correct Mare?
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Anna Katarina - Sep 9, 2003 1:18 am (#55 of 491)
Just a note: Modesty Blaise took her name after Merlin the Magician's tutor, a man called Blaise. One never can tell.
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skh - Sep 9, 2003 7:56 am (#56 of 491)
As for Blaise - as I'm in Ireland, I've not been aware of this character (and as I'm new to the forum as well, so I'm not aware from old messages either!). However, Blaise has to be a boy. The trend for female / male names being used by other sexes, such as Kelly for a boy etc., is really a more American than European thing (I agree that this changing, but the fact still remains that it is more common in the US than the UK). Now, JKR is British and quite British at that, she is a stickler for many British things, so I can't see her using the name Blaise for a girl at all...
Anyway, that's my thought on the matter! Sarah
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Mare - Sep 9, 2003 1:54 pm (#57 of 491)
Is this correct Mare?
Well it sounds logical to me, so I think you are right, but if you are asking me because of my knowledge of the french language, I have to dissapoint you. It has been many many years since I had french lessons and my french is even worse than my german (and you can ask dumbledore II how bad that is )
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2003 3:07 pm (#58 of 491)
Blaise Pascal was also male.
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Mrs. Weasley - Sep 9, 2003 7:49 pm (#59 of 491)
Saint Blaise, a male Catholic saint, is pronounce "blaze" and I, an American, had a male friend named after the Saint, who also pronounces it "blaze." As for good Slytherins, and whether our Blaise is one, one can hope - and I hope, especially since I kept getting sorted into that House on the old The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Site"
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Gabrielle D - Sep 11, 2003 3:03 pm (#60 of 491)
meep
Someone in my science class has a sister named Haise (pernounced Haze).
Zelmia - What you said about the 'e' on the end of 'Blaise' is correct in french. (My mother speaks fluent, and my teacher in school goes crazy when we get the genders wrong).
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 12, 2003 5:16 am (#61 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Okay - call me a turncoat but... I was initially of the opinion that Blaise was a feminine name but I have just started reading a book about an English Football Hooligan ***ducks fron flying comments - NOT HP I hear you cry*** and he has two sons, one of whom is called Blaise, this sort of helped me to change my mind, he didn't seem the sort of chap to give one of his sons a feminine name... (Oh and yes, I am also reading HP at the same time)
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Casandra - Sep 12, 2003 10:07 am (#62 of 491)
I think I can help you about Blaise doubt Because I'm spanish and I read the three first books in spanish, I don´t know if you know but we use different adjectives and names to call/ different a boy and a girl. Then in Spanish books it said Blaise is a boy, because it said "seleccionado" instead of "seleccionada", a man word´s ending, I don't know if you understand me... This could be a translation error, but I don't think so, because I know that when the spanish translator have a doubt, he call up the english editorial, and they tell him.
For example in firts books, to traslate the Professor Grubbly-Plank part, the spanish translator had to know if was a man or a woman, because we have two differents words: "profesor" or "profesora", he call them, and they tell him Grubbly-Plank was a woman.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2003 11:49 am (#63 of 491)
Let it snow!
Hey, Casandra, what which do they use (profesor or profesora) for Professors Vector and Sinistra?
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 12, 2003 11:59 am (#64 of 491)
I am not Cassandra. But Sinistra is female. There is an explanation at the Lexicon, and also, she is dancing at the Yule ball with Mad-Eye Moody.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2003 12:03 pm (#65 of 491)
Let it snow!
I know that in Latin it should be female (and I happen to think she is) but we've had a lot of discussion that had cast some shadow on that so I thought I'd ask because that would finally (semi-officially) clear it up, at least for me....
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Casandra - Sep 12, 2003 2:36 pm (#66 of 491)
I think Vector and Sinistra are both females, it's things like this that I love Spanish although I like English too!
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Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 2:58 pm (#67 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Okay, so if Blaise is a boy, and I'm willing to consider it, why haven't we heard about him before? Do you think he hangs out with Theodore Nott? Do they share a dormitore with Malfoy and Croyle? Are the Zabini parents Death Eaters?
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Hem Hem - Sep 12, 2003 5:20 pm (#68 of 491)
Something interesting:
In PS, Ch7, the UK edition includes an error when it states, "there were now only three people left to be sorted." Three names follow: Lisa Turpin, Ron Weasley, ad Blaise Zabini. The problem with this statement is that there was a fourth person left to be sorted: Dean Thomas. The US edition includes Dean but still says that there were "three people" left to be sorted.
This looks like an editing oversight, but perhaps it could tell us something about Zabini's importance in the series, how the editors kept his name in even though that made the statement of "three people" inaccurate. Eh, that's probably not too likely, but I just felt like pointing it out!
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Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 5:26 pm (#69 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I never acutally considered that to be an error. It says SS p.122: "And now there were only three people left ot be sorted. 'Thomas, Dean,' a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table." I just assumed that when the count was being taken, Dean had already been sorted, just didn't make it to the table yet.
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schoff - Sep 12, 2003 6:03 pm (#70 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Or there were only three people to be sorted for Ron's turn (Dean, Lisa, and then Ron--the third).
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Joost! - Sep 13, 2003 7:19 am (#71 of 491)
Second line of information
The Dutch translation of PS doesn't mention Dean (Daan in Dutch) at all at the sorting ceremony, and Blaise Zabini is called "Bella Zabini", Bella being without a doubt a feminine name.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 13, 2003 7:29 am (#72 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I'm more inclined to go with the Spanish translation, if any, since we have a whole other Bella in OoP, and I don't think that's a name JKR would want to use twice.
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Mare - Sep 13, 2003 8:02 am (#73 of 491)
They changed all the names in the dutch translation to dutch names Olivia. It is very confusing if I want to discuss HP with a friend who only read the dutch version, because I spend so much time on the forum that I only know the english names. And they can be quit different.
The point that Joost was trying to make, is that, in our version, there can be no doubt about the fact that .... Zabini from Slytherin is a girl.
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Denise P. - Sep 13, 2003 3:14 pm (#74 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Do the translators check with JKR prior to doing the translations to confirm things like this? Just because the translator thinks Blaise is a girl does not mean that Blaise is actually a girl. There may be no doubt in that translators mind that Blaise is a girl but as for me, I still think Blaise is a boy
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Mare - Sep 13, 2003 4:09 pm (#75 of 491)
I've looked around the net, and I found an interview with Wiebe(translator). I can't tell for sure (I can't copy it to translate it for you either, darn security-thingys!) But it gives me the feeling that he doesn't check with bloomsbury. (I don't think the translators check with JKR, do you?)
Anyway, he says he doesn't have contact with other translators. And he says that he named Sirius, Sirius Zwarts in the first book, and that if he would have known that it became such a major character he would have chosen a different name. (Thank heavens he didn't know! he called Lavender Belinda Broom. To give, the worst, example. Other than the persons names, the mans a genius, really!) But all this leads me to believe that he doesn't check back on persona.
But I can't tell you for sure.
PS I still think she's a girl
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Casandra - Sep 14, 2003 11:24 am (#76 of 491)
I know spanish translators check with the english editorial, and I suppose they talk to Rowling. I don´t know in others countries, but here they can´t translate more than 6 pages in a day, and one of the reasons is that, they have to check everything. this is the reason that they will not have it translate until 2004... But I'll read in spanish too, because they choose the "exacts" words, and I'm interesting in how they will translate things like the prophecy, the translation could give us clues
or at least in others books it happened
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haymoni - Sep 15, 2003 5:25 am (#77 of 491)
Olivia Wood - you asked if Blaise hangs out with Theodore Nott.
I thought that Theodore was younger than Harry et al. I think I got this impression because Hermione had to tell Harry & Ron who he was.
I know people that go to big high schools sometimes don't know people in their own graduating class. I just never got the impression that there were that many students in each year at Hogwarts.
I figured Draco, Crabbe and Goyle were talking to Nott because Harry had outted their fathers and they were all in the same boat now.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 15, 2003 6:51 am (#78 of 491)
But a Nott was mentioned during Harry's sorting. And Harry didn't know Susan Bones, although he had Herbology with her.
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haymoni - Sep 15, 2003 6:54 am (#79 of 491)
Thanks for setting me straight.
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Hem Hem - Sep 15, 2003 5:00 pm (#80 of 491)
[I wasn't sure if this post belonged better in this thread or the Quidditch thread, but I decided to write it here.]
Anyone think Teddy Nott will be playing Quidditch this coming year? The Slytherin team has some vacancies, I think, and we know that T Nott checked out Quidditch Through the Ages. If he does end up on the team, the chances that we'll learn a bit more about him become very likely.
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Denise S. - Sep 15, 2003 6:16 pm (#81 of 491)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It would certainly give purpose to introduce a (more or less) new character.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 15, 2003 8:11 pm (#82 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I agree about the Quidditch. Maybe Blaise will play too, and we'll finally find out if (s)he's a boy or a girl.
Anyway, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I was re-reading OoP and the description of Snape from the pensieve jumped out at me. US. p.640-41: "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark." (Weedy?)
The thestral-seeing Slyterin was also descibed as stringy, and Nott was descirbed as weedy. Is this meant to establish a connection between him/them and Snape? A comparison?
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Sly Girl - Sep 15, 2003 9:22 pm (#83 of 491)
Either that or maybe JKR needs a theasarus for Christmas.
Actually, I think she just likes to describes Slytherin's as having a weedy, stringy look to them.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 16, 2003 12:25 pm (#84 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Yeah, that seems to be an ongoing description for them.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 16, 2003 3:24 pm (#85 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I thought the ongoing general description for Slytherins was the thuggish look? All the Slytherins ever on the Quidditch team, other than Malfoy, are described like that. Millicent Bulstrode too. Malfoy's never been described by anything approaching stringy. That leaves Thestral-boy, Nott, and Snape, hence my point.
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Sly Girl - Sep 16, 2003 7:46 pm (#86 of 491)
Well maybe there are two camps of Slytherins- sluggish and borish, next to stringy and weedy.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 7:23 am (#87 of 491)
Make that three--the Malfoy type--sleek and vicious.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 17, 2003 2:29 pm (#88 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Bellatrix falls in with the Malfoys. : )
But anyway, if they're all in the same group, wouldn't that constitute a comparison? So there is a possible link between Snape and Nott/thestral boy.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 18, 2003 12:31 pm (#89 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
How much do you wanna bet that Snape could see Thestrals at that age too?
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Warty Harris - Sep 18, 2003 8:49 pm (#90 of 491)
There was a Saint Blaise who protected animals, I also saw something on a web site (I cannot find it now) about a Saint Silyn who saved a stag while being hunted. Stag being Harry's Patronus charm. I thought maybe they were the same Saints but I found out his name was Silyn. He was like a wild man of the woods who lived in a hut and drank a lot. anyway....
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S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 8:51 pm (#91 of 491)
Let it snow!
"a Saint Silyn who saved a stag while being hunted. Stag being Harry's Patronus charm. I thought maybe they were the same Saints but I found out his name was Silyn. He was like a wild man of the woods who lived in a hut and drank a lot. anyway.... "
I thought that was Saint Godric....
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fidelio - Sep 19, 2003 7:55 am (#92 of 491)
Living in the woods was a big favorite among medieval saints. There are lots with that in the resume. They would go out, live in the woods, avoid distractions and temptations, and be able to concentrate on God. However, once you'd lived in the woods for a while, you got the reputation for being a saint, and people came and bothered you all the time. As a result, a lot of these guys also got the reputation for being very bad-tempered--go figure!
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Gabrielle D - Sep 19, 2003 1:06 pm (#93 of 491)
meep
Saint Godric and saving a stag... very much the opposite of Godric's hollow not being able to save James (the stag).
(a little backround info... GODRIC Also known as Godric of Finchale Memorial 21 May Profile Oldest three children born to a freedman Anglo-Saxon farmer. An adventurous seafaring man, he spent his youth in travel both on land and sea as a peddler and merchant mariner first along the coast of the British Isles, then throughout Europe. Sometime sailor, sometime ship's captain, he lived a seafarer's life of the day, and it was hardly a religious one. He was known to drink, fight, chase women, con customers, and in a contemporary manuscript, was referred to as a "pirate". )
does anyone think that this saint connection is a little odd...?
Plus, there are two saint Blaise's...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
sorry for being so off topic... this can be deleted if it has to. =^)
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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 1:55 pm (#94 of 491)
Let it snow!
Odd how, Gabrielle? Also take a look at this essay at the Lexicon about Saint Godric and possible comparisons to the plot...
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Warty Harris - Sep 19, 2003 5:16 pm (#95 of 491)
I am sorry you are right, I must have seen it on the Lexicon...duh. Silyan has nothing to do with a stag. However I thought that there may be some connection with protecting animals. I will look into the two blaise and see what I can find out.
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Carina - Sep 19, 2003 8:48 pm (#96 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Yeah, this has gotten WAY off topic and I doubt a thread based solely on the saints would fly here, so let's try this...
Stringy Nott, hmmm?
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Kip Carter - Sep 20, 2003 2:37 am (#97 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
At the suggestion of S.E. Jones, the following questions is added in the hopes that it will return to thread to the topic:
"In what ways could this hypothetical good Slytherin lead his house into unity with the school?"
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Warty Harris - Sep 20, 2003 11:47 am (#98 of 491)
Maybe he is a good Slytherin and he saves an animals life. That is what St. Blaise did. Maybe Fawkes, or Hedwig (by the way the patron saint of orphans is St. Hedwig, Hedwych also means tranquility in Welsh) Maybe he unites the school in that way. Perhaps Blaise is a future care of magical creatures professor as well.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 20, 2003 1:51 pm (#99 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Hypothetical good Slytherin Nott could do as little as openly show his dislike of Malfoy & Co., leading to the rest of Slytherin House realizing all of them always hated Malfoy's guts, but just didn't want to say anything because they thought they were the only ones. Then Malfoy gets his butt kicked, and everybody's happy. : )
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mollis - Sep 22, 2003 11:23 am (#100 of 491)
Edited by Sep 22, 2003 11:23 am
I would definitly like to see a good slytherin. I really think that we will simply because JKR seems to enjoy showing us that things are not always black and white. "Wizards aren't divided into good people and death eaters" (or something like that!)
EDIT: Oh! I was #100! Yeah me!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Verily, S.E. Jones! After I saw you point that out (I was in the midst of rereading OoP) I too gained hope that we will see some good come out of Slytherin. My fingers are crossed!
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timrew - Sep 7, 2003 12:08 pm (#52 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Well spotted, Sarah! I remember that bit now. There's hope that we might see a good Slytherin yet. I knew they couldn't ALL be potential Death Eaters.
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 7, 2003 12:51 pm (#53 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Even if he/she is a DE in waiting - who said that was a bad thing? Sirius/Snape for example... neither of them ended up as their parents would have liked. By the time you reach 15/16 you tend to develop your own sense of direction....
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zelmia - Sep 8, 2003 3:02 pm (#54 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Just a quick note: If Blaise is French in origin (Blaise Pascal, for example), then the name, whether masculine or feminine, would indeed have an "e" on the end regardless, in order to allow the "s" to be pronounced. If there were no "e" you would think that the "s" was silent (thus pronoucing the word "Blay") - as it is in francais or palais. Is this correct Mare?
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Anna Katarina - Sep 9, 2003 1:18 am (#55 of 491)
Just a note: Modesty Blaise took her name after Merlin the Magician's tutor, a man called Blaise. One never can tell.
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skh - Sep 9, 2003 7:56 am (#56 of 491)
As for Blaise - as I'm in Ireland, I've not been aware of this character (and as I'm new to the forum as well, so I'm not aware from old messages either!). However, Blaise has to be a boy. The trend for female / male names being used by other sexes, such as Kelly for a boy etc., is really a more American than European thing (I agree that this changing, but the fact still remains that it is more common in the US than the UK). Now, JKR is British and quite British at that, she is a stickler for many British things, so I can't see her using the name Blaise for a girl at all...
Anyway, that's my thought on the matter! Sarah
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Mare - Sep 9, 2003 1:54 pm (#57 of 491)
Is this correct Mare?
Well it sounds logical to me, so I think you are right, but if you are asking me because of my knowledge of the french language, I have to dissapoint you. It has been many many years since I had french lessons and my french is even worse than my german (and you can ask dumbledore II how bad that is )
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2003 3:07 pm (#58 of 491)
Blaise Pascal was also male.
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Mrs. Weasley - Sep 9, 2003 7:49 pm (#59 of 491)
Saint Blaise, a male Catholic saint, is pronounce "blaze" and I, an American, had a male friend named after the Saint, who also pronounces it "blaze." As for good Slytherins, and whether our Blaise is one, one can hope - and I hope, especially since I kept getting sorted into that House on the old The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Site"
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Gabrielle D - Sep 11, 2003 3:03 pm (#60 of 491)
meep
Someone in my science class has a sister named Haise (pernounced Haze).
Zelmia - What you said about the 'e' on the end of 'Blaise' is correct in french. (My mother speaks fluent, and my teacher in school goes crazy when we get the genders wrong).
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 12, 2003 5:16 am (#61 of 491)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Okay - call me a turncoat but... I was initially of the opinion that Blaise was a feminine name but I have just started reading a book about an English Football Hooligan ***ducks fron flying comments - NOT HP I hear you cry*** and he has two sons, one of whom is called Blaise, this sort of helped me to change my mind, he didn't seem the sort of chap to give one of his sons a feminine name... (Oh and yes, I am also reading HP at the same time)
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Casandra - Sep 12, 2003 10:07 am (#62 of 491)
I think I can help you about Blaise doubt Because I'm spanish and I read the three first books in spanish, I don´t know if you know but we use different adjectives and names to call/ different a boy and a girl. Then in Spanish books it said Blaise is a boy, because it said "seleccionado" instead of "seleccionada", a man word´s ending, I don't know if you understand me... This could be a translation error, but I don't think so, because I know that when the spanish translator have a doubt, he call up the english editorial, and they tell him.
For example in firts books, to traslate the Professor Grubbly-Plank part, the spanish translator had to know if was a man or a woman, because we have two differents words: "profesor" or "profesora", he call them, and they tell him Grubbly-Plank was a woman.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2003 11:49 am (#63 of 491)
Let it snow!
Hey, Casandra, what which do they use (profesor or profesora) for Professors Vector and Sinistra?
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 12, 2003 11:59 am (#64 of 491)
I am not Cassandra. But Sinistra is female. There is an explanation at the Lexicon, and also, she is dancing at the Yule ball with Mad-Eye Moody.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2003 12:03 pm (#65 of 491)
Let it snow!
I know that in Latin it should be female (and I happen to think she is) but we've had a lot of discussion that had cast some shadow on that so I thought I'd ask because that would finally (semi-officially) clear it up, at least for me....
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Casandra - Sep 12, 2003 2:36 pm (#66 of 491)
I think Vector and Sinistra are both females, it's things like this that I love Spanish
although I like English too! - - - - - - - - - -
Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 2:58 pm (#67 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Okay, so if Blaise is a boy, and I'm willing to consider it, why haven't we heard about him before? Do you think he hangs out with Theodore Nott? Do they share a dormitore with Malfoy and Croyle? Are the Zabini parents Death Eaters?
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Hem Hem - Sep 12, 2003 5:20 pm (#68 of 491)
Something interesting:
In PS, Ch7, the UK edition includes an error when it states, "there were now only three people left to be sorted." Three names follow: Lisa Turpin, Ron Weasley, ad Blaise Zabini. The problem with this statement is that there was a fourth person left to be sorted: Dean Thomas. The US edition includes Dean but still says that there were "three people" left to be sorted.
This looks like an editing oversight, but perhaps it could tell us something about Zabini's importance in the series, how the editors kept his name in even though that made the statement of "three people" inaccurate. Eh, that's probably not too likely, but I just felt like pointing it out!
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Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 5:26 pm (#69 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I never acutally considered that to be an error. It says SS p.122: "And now there were only three people left ot be sorted. 'Thomas, Dean,' a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table." I just assumed that when the count was being taken, Dean had already been sorted, just didn't make it to the table yet.
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schoff - Sep 12, 2003 6:03 pm (#70 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Or there were only three people to be sorted for Ron's turn (Dean, Lisa, and then Ron--the third).
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Joost! - Sep 13, 2003 7:19 am (#71 of 491)
Second line of information
The Dutch translation of PS doesn't mention Dean (Daan in Dutch) at all at the sorting ceremony, and Blaise Zabini is called "Bella Zabini", Bella being without a doubt a feminine name.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 13, 2003 7:29 am (#72 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I'm more inclined to go with the Spanish translation, if any, since we have a whole other Bella in OoP, and I don't think that's a name JKR would want to use twice.
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Mare - Sep 13, 2003 8:02 am (#73 of 491)
They changed all the names in the dutch translation to dutch names Olivia. It is very confusing if I want to discuss HP with a friend who only read the dutch version, because I spend so much time on the forum that I only know the english names. And they can be quit different.
The point that Joost was trying to make, is that, in our version, there can be no doubt about the fact that .... Zabini from Slytherin is a girl.
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Denise P. - Sep 13, 2003 3:14 pm (#74 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Do the translators check with JKR prior to doing the translations to confirm things like this? Just because the translator thinks Blaise is a girl does not mean that Blaise is actually a girl. There may be no doubt in that translators mind that Blaise is a girl but as for me, I still think Blaise is a boy
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Mare - Sep 13, 2003 4:09 pm (#75 of 491)
I've looked around the net, and I found an interview with Wiebe(translator). I can't tell for sure (I can't copy it to translate it for you either, darn security-thingys!) But it gives me the feeling that he doesn't check with bloomsbury. (I don't think the translators check with JKR, do you?)
Anyway, he says he doesn't have contact with other translators. And he says that he named Sirius, Sirius Zwarts in the first book, and that if he would have known that it became such a major character he would have chosen a different name. (Thank heavens he didn't know! he called Lavender Belinda Broom. To give, the worst, example. Other than the persons names, the mans a genius, really!) But all this leads me to believe that he doesn't check back on persona.
But I can't tell you for sure.
PS I still think she's a girl
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Casandra - Sep 14, 2003 11:24 am (#76 of 491)
I know spanish translators check with the english editorial, and I suppose they talk to Rowling. I don´t know in others countries, but here they can´t translate more than 6 pages in a day, and one of the reasons is that, they have to check everything. this is the reason that they will not have it translate until 2004... But I'll read in spanish too, because they choose the "exacts" words, and I'm interesting in how they will translate things like the prophecy, the translation could give us clues
or at least in others books it happened - - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Sep 15, 2003 5:25 am (#77 of 491)
Olivia Wood - you asked if Blaise hangs out with Theodore Nott.
I thought that Theodore was younger than Harry et al. I think I got this impression because Hermione had to tell Harry & Ron who he was.
I know people that go to big high schools sometimes don't know people in their own graduating class. I just never got the impression that there were that many students in each year at Hogwarts.
I figured Draco, Crabbe and Goyle were talking to Nott because Harry had outted their fathers and they were all in the same boat now.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 15, 2003 6:51 am (#78 of 491)
But a Nott was mentioned during Harry's sorting. And Harry didn't know Susan Bones, although he had Herbology with her.
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haymoni - Sep 15, 2003 6:54 am (#79 of 491)
Thanks for setting me straight.
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Hem Hem - Sep 15, 2003 5:00 pm (#80 of 491)
[I wasn't sure if this post belonged better in this thread or the Quidditch thread, but I decided to write it here.]
Anyone think Teddy Nott will be playing Quidditch this coming year? The Slytherin team has some vacancies, I think, and we know that T Nott checked out Quidditch Through the Ages. If he does end up on the team, the chances that we'll learn a bit more about him become very likely.
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Denise S. - Sep 15, 2003 6:16 pm (#81 of 491)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It would certainly give purpose to introduce a (more or less) new character.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 15, 2003 8:11 pm (#82 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I agree about the Quidditch. Maybe Blaise will play too, and we'll finally find out if (s)he's a boy or a girl.
Anyway, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I was re-reading OoP and the description of Snape from the pensieve jumped out at me. US. p.640-41: "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark." (Weedy?)
The thestral-seeing Slyterin was also descibed as stringy, and Nott was descirbed as weedy. Is this meant to establish a connection between him/them and Snape? A comparison?
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Sly Girl - Sep 15, 2003 9:22 pm (#83 of 491)
Either that or maybe JKR needs a theasarus for Christmas.
Actually, I think she just likes to describes Slytherin's as having a weedy, stringy look to them.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 16, 2003 12:25 pm (#84 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Yeah, that seems to be an ongoing description for them.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 16, 2003 3:24 pm (#85 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I thought the ongoing general description for Slytherins was the thuggish look? All the Slytherins ever on the Quidditch team, other than Malfoy, are described like that. Millicent Bulstrode too. Malfoy's never been described by anything approaching stringy. That leaves Thestral-boy, Nott, and Snape, hence my point.
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Sly Girl - Sep 16, 2003 7:46 pm (#86 of 491)
Well maybe there are two camps of Slytherins- sluggish and borish, next to stringy and weedy.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 7:23 am (#87 of 491)
Make that three--the Malfoy type--sleek and vicious.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 17, 2003 2:29 pm (#88 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Bellatrix falls in with the Malfoys. : )
But anyway, if they're all in the same group, wouldn't that constitute a comparison? So there is a possible link between Snape and Nott/thestral boy.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 18, 2003 12:31 pm (#89 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
How much do you wanna bet that Snape could see Thestrals at that age too?
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Warty Harris - Sep 18, 2003 8:49 pm (#90 of 491)
There was a Saint Blaise who protected animals, I also saw something on a web site (I cannot find it now) about a Saint Silyn who saved a stag while being hunted. Stag being Harry's Patronus charm. I thought maybe they were the same Saints but I found out his name was Silyn. He was like a wild man of the woods who lived in a hut and drank a lot. anyway....
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S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 8:51 pm (#91 of 491)
Let it snow!
"a Saint Silyn who saved a stag while being hunted. Stag being Harry's Patronus charm. I thought maybe they were the same Saints but I found out his name was Silyn. He was like a wild man of the woods who lived in a hut and drank a lot. anyway.... "
I thought that was Saint Godric....
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fidelio - Sep 19, 2003 7:55 am (#92 of 491)
Living in the woods was a big favorite among medieval saints. There are lots with that in the resume. They would go out, live in the woods, avoid distractions and temptations, and be able to concentrate on God. However, once you'd lived in the woods for a while, you got the reputation for being a saint, and people came and bothered you all the time. As a result, a lot of these guys also got the reputation for being very bad-tempered--go figure!
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Gabrielle D - Sep 19, 2003 1:06 pm (#93 of 491)
meep
Saint Godric and saving a stag... very much the opposite of Godric's hollow not being able to save James (the stag).
(a little backround info... GODRIC Also known as Godric of Finchale Memorial 21 May Profile Oldest three children born to a freedman Anglo-Saxon farmer. An adventurous seafaring man, he spent his youth in travel both on land and sea as a peddler and merchant mariner first along the coast of the British Isles, then throughout Europe. Sometime sailor, sometime ship's captain, he lived a seafarer's life of the day, and it was hardly a religious one. He was known to drink, fight, chase women, con customers, and in a contemporary manuscript, was referred to as a "pirate". )
does anyone think that this saint connection is a little odd...?
Plus, there are two saint Blaise's...
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sorry for being so off topic... this can be deleted if it has to. =^)
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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 1:55 pm (#94 of 491)
Let it snow!
Odd how, Gabrielle? Also take a look at this essay at the Lexicon about Saint Godric and possible comparisons to the plot...
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Warty Harris - Sep 19, 2003 5:16 pm (#95 of 491)
I am sorry you are right, I must have seen it on the Lexicon...duh. Silyan has nothing to do with a stag. However I thought that there may be some connection with protecting animals. I will look into the two blaise and see what I can find out.
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Carina - Sep 19, 2003 8:48 pm (#96 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Yeah, this has gotten WAY off topic and I doubt a thread based solely on the saints would fly here, so let's try this...
Stringy Nott, hmmm?
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Kip Carter - Sep 20, 2003 2:37 am (#97 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
At the suggestion of S.E. Jones, the following questions is added in the hopes that it will return to thread to the topic:
"In what ways could this hypothetical good Slytherin lead his house into unity with the school?"
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Warty Harris - Sep 20, 2003 11:47 am (#98 of 491)
Maybe he is a good Slytherin and he saves an animals life. That is what St. Blaise did. Maybe Fawkes, or Hedwig (by the way the patron saint of orphans is St. Hedwig, Hedwych also means tranquility in Welsh) Maybe he unites the school in that way. Perhaps Blaise is a future care of magical creatures professor as well.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 20, 2003 1:51 pm (#99 of 491)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
Hypothetical good Slytherin Nott could do as little as openly show his dislike of Malfoy & Co., leading to the rest of Slytherin House realizing all of them always hated Malfoy's guts, but just didn't want to say anything because they thought they were the only ones. Then Malfoy gets his butt kicked, and everybody's happy. : )
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mollis - Sep 22, 2003 11:23 am (#100 of 491)
Edited by Sep 22, 2003 11:23 am
I would definitly like to see a good slytherin. I really think that we will simply because JKR seems to enjoy showing us that things are not always black and white. "Wizards aren't divided into good people and death eaters" (or something like that!)
EDIT: Oh! I was #100! Yeah me!
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-19
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 101 to 150)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:22 am
Wendelin the Weird - Sep 22, 2003 9:31 pm (#101 of 491)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hi everybody!!! Hi Carina, SP! Been ages since Ive been here and in glee to know that you are still out there finding these interesting mind-boggling bits to make me go crazy pulling out my hair trying to figure out. Hee hee
I think thats really interesting that there is one Slytherin who really sticks out there... I dont think its coincidence because obviously JKR has done that before (like my fav example in PoA when Ginny and Neville just happen to show up in the same coach right when the dementors come on so that we can see they were affected by them in weird ways also) I have a feeling we'll be meeting this dd Slytherin soon... and I tend to think it isnt someone we've seen before. And I do think its interesting that his description is much like Snapes as a youth considering that Harry is so much like his father in appearance.
WHo did this boy see die? Was it a parent dying because they decided they didnt want to be a deatheater any more (like Sirus's brother did)? Or did he see a parent/relative kill someone, meaning he could be related to a DE? Or maybe he just saw his old gran die... innocently enough. Either way, he looks on with distaste which means that he doesnt like the looks of the eating beastie..
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 22, 2003 9:40 pm (#102 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
I don't know, I'm really not sure I want to see a 'good' Slytherin, lest that Slytherin forevermore become the 'token good Slytherin.' -_-
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 23, 2003 12:41 pm (#103 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
I have to agree with you SP, I don't want a goody-goody Slytherin either...
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S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 1:30 pm (#104 of 491)
Let it snow!
What about good Slytherins, as in plural, Josh?
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Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 24, 2003 2:00 pm (#105 of 491)
She-who-must-not-be-named
I'm posting this here because I think it's where it would fit best. In response to Penny's Griffin info., I said that I had seen it in a book with interesting facts, and that I came across a chapter that said "Why is the Slytherin House allowed in Hogwarts?". I had asked myself this a million times, then it said something that made me think "of course!". I'm going to buy this book, I can't remember exactly how it said it (it was in Spanish anyway but I'm translating it). It said that Dumbledore knows that you have to face your enemies with bravery, etc. (Slytherin isn't exactly and "enemy", but all the bad wizards came from that House), but you also have to face with compassion. He knows that even if your a bad wizard you could change your mind and decide to be good, so he thinks it isn't fair to shut Slytherin out. Or something like that. When I buy that book I'll be posting lots of messages with interesting facts,hehe
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Thom Matheson - Sep 24, 2003 4:55 pm (#106 of 491)
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 20, 2005 4:02 am
I have tried to avoid my usual quips and puns so before posting I wanted to give this even more serious thought. How far back are we going when we look at Hogwarts? 700 to a 1000 years. We have 2 witchs and 2 wizards how basically said, we need a place for higher education for the sake of perpetuating wizard kind. 1 of the four gets angry at the quality of students being admitted regarding the mixture of bloodlines and bales out. The Charter of Slytherin I don't think says "best able to be evil" as a requirement does it. That anymore then "good flyer" says be a seeker for Gryffindor. It said S. is the purest, G is the bravest, R is the Intelligent, and H is anyone else so long as we get them all in.
My point to this is that only by choice have the bad kids gone to Slytherin. My thought is that there are probably bad kids in other houses. Much of this thread has turned into what DD was thinking but doesn't it make sense that all of the many Heads had at one time or another faced similar situations. It is not just what we see in Harry's time. We can't necessarily use the adults here because we don't really know which house they were in let alone if they went to Hogwarts at all.
Much as today we know that the U.S. Constitution was written 300 years ago by men who based their Articles on their current social and political climate, so did the Founders. Dumbledore I think is one of the individual few that realizes that time change and of course time can change. Dumbledore seeks out change. He could have authored the book "Who Moved The Cheese".
When we get to the end of 7 I think that the final most compelling answer to the series is that Rowling, through Dumbledore, will unite the Houses as was intended in the beginning. Evil Slytherins will be overcome and be banished or vanquished by a united Hogwarts.
The mystery Slytherin will be the House itself.
Man, do my fingers hurt.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 6:21 pm (#107 of 491)
Nice thinking, Thom. I'd say give yourself a pat on the back, but if your fingers are so sore....
I like the comparison to the Constitution. That's only 300 years old and we can't agree on what exactly was meant by the framers. Sheesh, can you imagine trying to interpret the H-warts founders thinking from how long ago? Even with the Sorting Hat song, things are not crystal clear.
I love your last line (no, not the one about the fingers, the one before that). It was eloquent and authoritative like all good literary criticism should be.
Ciao. Barb
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Thom Matheson - Sep 24, 2003 7:14 pm (#108 of 491)
Geez Barb, My card catalog is all a flutter. Thank You
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feathy123 - Oct 1, 2003 12:07 am (#109 of 491)
same
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Pink Arjuna - Oct 1, 2003 7:49 am (#110 of 491)
I'd go with the zabini kid as jk doesn't usually mention people for nothing... but who knows?
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Oct 2, 2003 3:41 pm (#111 of 491)
I'm with the group who thinks the Mystery Slytherin is Nott. Zabini may have a role in the books, but I don't think it's the Stringy Slytherin watching the thestrals.
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virgoddess1313 - Oct 2, 2003 3:51 pm (#112 of 491)
I'm throwing my hat in with the Zabini crowd, although, I have to say, I have my doubts over whether or not it's actually really relevent. Call me negative, but I'm not so sure that the fact that this mysterious Sytherin boy can see the thestrals is really going to turn out to be a big deal.
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AlbusRiddle - Oct 2, 2003 4:38 pm (#113 of 491)
Yeah, I have to say it is possible that the mystery boy is irrelevant. She may have just added another random kid because the idea of only two kids in a large class having seen death is unlikely. Or, she may not have wanted to single out Harry and Neville alone so early in the book, which might spoil the "suprise" about the prophecy at the end.
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haymoni - Oct 3, 2003 5:45 am (#114 of 491)
Once again, I do not have my book with me. Did the Thestrals lesson come before Harry's Quibbler article or after?
If it came before, the stringy boy could be either Nott or Zambini.
If it came after the article, I think Harry would have recognized the stringy boy as Nott because Hermione had named him when he was seen huddled together with Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle after the interview was printed.
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virgoddess1313 - Oct 3, 2003 7:58 am (#115 of 491)
It did say something about Nott being weedy (or something like that.. I'm at work and I don't have my book with me). Excellent point.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 3, 2003 10:05 am (#116 of 491)
@ Haymoni: The Thestral lesson came before the Quibbler-article.
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Warty Harris - Oct 4, 2003 11:23 am (#117 of 491)
But then wouldn't Harry have noticed that it was the same boy that saw the thestrals? it would have been pointed out in the book that it was the same boy ie. Harry saw the same boy who recognized the thestrals with Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. If Nott was related to Thestrals somehow. Make sense?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 12:36 pm (#118 of 491)
Let it snow!
Does it say that Harry didn't recognize the boy or that he didn't know his name? He recognized Susan Bones but didn't know her name, I'm betting he recognized Nott as well....
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Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 10:26 pm (#119 of 491)
Mystery Slyhterni? Sorry that I am butting in, but Is this talking about the Slytherin mentioned who could see the Thestrals also or not? If so, who are the current candidiates?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 11:53 pm (#120 of 491)
Let it snow!
Yup. Nott and Zabini....
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Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:48 am (#121 of 491)
OK. Well I read previous posts, and there was an argument over who Blaise was and the gender, we cannot know until JK Rowling fully tells us herself, but I have always been a beleiver of Blaise being a female.
Sorry if I am relifting old dust.
Also, There was a Sally-Anne Perks or someone like that, who was also put as an unknown house occupant. Now do we know the gender of the MS (mystery Slytherin)?
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Sly Girl - Oct 5, 2003 10:52 am (#122 of 491)
From the very first post by Josh:
"Turn to page 445...
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail.
Having spent 4 books and well over 150 readings of Harry Potter lore looking for a Slytherin who stands out as different than the rest, this leapt out at me in a huge way.
Who is this 5th-year Slytherin boy?"
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Warty Harris - Oct 5, 2003 2:03 pm (#123 of 491)
I think Blaise Zabini is a boy, and I think he is the Mystery Slytherin who saw the thestrals. I could be wrong, it could be Nott.
I reread page 445 and Hagrid almost says his name, but then is interupted by Umbridge. Now maybe that is just the way the interaction was written to show how rude Umbridge is, but I think it is because JKR. doesn't want to put the name there. If it was Nott,then why wouldn't she..get what I am saying? He is mention other times. Why wouldn't Nott have been mention as the third boy who sees the Thestrals? Maybe I am reading to much into it.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 5, 2003 2:35 pm (#124 of 491)
Because JKR doesn't want us to know that the third person is Theodore Nott. Because than everybody would have asked "Why can Nott see Thestrals?", and maybe the answer to this is really important, and JKR tries as much as possible, to hide it.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:31 pm (#125 of 491)
Aye, Aye, Aye! Well I have always beleived Blaise to be female, but for the sake of possibilities, she could be a he. So Nott and Zabini are our options? I personally can't think of anyone else. I'll check the lexicon and see if they have any 5th year Slytherins with unknown details.
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zixyer - Oct 5, 2003 9:03 pm (#126 of 491)
You know, I always thought that the reason that Rowling wrote about Zambini was as a transition from the sorting to the feast. Sort of like how Euan Abercrombie is mentioned to start the sorting in OotP. They're just mentioned because of how their names fall alphabetically. I'd be surprised if either of them turned out to be important.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 5, 2003 10:04 pm (#127 of 491)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hmm.. well, Susan Bones name was also called at the Sorting and she turned out to be an important character in a way. We know the Bones were killed by DEs (not sure which ones) and her aunt is head f aurors (cant think of exact name of dept forgive me). Its possible that person may come up later.
And in the baby name books I have seen Blaise is a boy name (I have characters who are boys Ive conidered naming that). But I dont know, it could be someone else entirely. It just seems that Harry would have known this 5th year boys name by now after all the classes hes had to endure with the Slytherins... unless he was a new transfer to the school.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 5:43 am (#128 of 491)
I reckon she or he is important. Blaise is a female and male name. We can't fight that fact. Which opens the possibility of her/him being irrelevant in this matter, or being an important person. But the fact that Harry has seen both these people with their names mentioned disturbs me and makes me think it is a new person.
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zelmia - Oct 7, 2003 12:26 pm (#129 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I don't think the Mystery Slytherin is Nott.
When I read that passage in OP the first time (and even on subsequent readings) I, too, automatically thought 'that must be Nott.' But this really doesn't make any sense.
Having just had Nott pointed out to him in a scene not much prior to this, Harry would certainly have recognised him. If it was Nott who could see thestrals, the passage would surely have read something like:
"There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): Theodore Nott, the boy Hermione had just pointed out to Harry in the Library, and Neville..."
OR
"There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): the boy Harry had just seen in the Library reading The Quibbler with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, and Neville..."
Obviously, the real point of this passage is to introduce Neville's ability to see Thestrals. But I think if the other person had been Nott, the passage would have said so straight out, since that character has already been introduced. And please don't answer with "JKR does/doesn't write unless..." Unless the author is changing viewpoints, which is not the case here, absolutely no writer would introduce a character by name and then later refer to that character in such an anonymous manner. There would have to be exceptional circumstances for this to be an acceptable practice. Therefore, this has to be somebody else.
I think that puts Blaise Zabini as the most likely candidate. Blaise is traditionally a male name, regardless of how many females we've all met named Blaise. Blaise Zabini is the only character who is the right age and in the right House. This person is apparently not on the Quidditch team, or Harry would have noticed that "...whom Harry vaguely recognised from the Slytherin Quidditch Team..." would surely have been the mystery boy's most distinguishing feature. (I know Harry only played in one match, but it was against Slytherin.)
My two knuts...
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 7, 2003 1:28 pm (#130 of 491)
But the scene with the Quibbler was after Hagrid introduced the Thestrals.
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zelmia - Oct 7, 2003 2:46 pm (#131 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, then forget everything I said.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 4:21 pm (#132 of 491)
Awww, and such a long post!
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Warty Harris - Oct 8, 2003 4:24 pm (#133 of 491)
No, then it makes even more sense that he wouldn't be Nott. Then Harry would have defintley remembered him! well....maybe not, but most likely. He would have noticed that Terrance would be the other boy that saw the thestrals.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 6:16 pm (#134 of 491)
Well not matter whether he was introduced to him previously or afterwards, he probably would've remembered him with the thestrals (If previosly) as Theodore Nott, or when introduced (if afterwards) as the boy that could see the Thestrals.
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zelmia - Oct 8, 2003 7:19 pm (#135 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
You're right, Warty. What I said before could still fit, since, as you have pointed out, it seems that Harry would have remarked on seeing Nott earlier when Hermione points him out in the Library.
Something like "Hermione pointed out Theodore Nott [or whatever the actual text says], whom Harry recognised from his CMC class as the Slytherin boy who could see Thestrals..."
That makes it seem more like the Mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini - or some heretofore un-introduced character.
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Warty Harris - Oct 8, 2003 7:28 pm (#136 of 491)
Exactly Zelmia...and I meant Theodore. what was I thinking with Terrance?
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zixyer - Oct 8, 2003 7:41 pm (#137 of 491)
All it says is that they saw him in the library and Hermione told Harry that his name was Nott. It doesn't say one way or the other whether Harry recognized him as the one who could see Thestrals. Rowling might have thought she'd be giving too much away if she had written "They were with the weedy-looking boy who Harry remembered could see Thestrals Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott".
Does anyone else thing Harry might have been responsible for killing Theodore Nott's father (or other male relative)? It sounded like, during the battle in the Department of Mysteries, the Death Eater "Nott" was in a pretty bad way.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 9, 2003 2:00 am (#138 of 491)
No, I don't think any of the Death Eaters were killed. I also think that it was Hermione who is mainly responsible, that Nott was hurt. A Death Eater attacked Harry and Hermione stunned him. I suppose this was Nott.
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zixyer - Oct 9, 2003 12:35 pm (#139 of 491)
I'm pretty sure stunning would never cause permanent injury (unless you're hit with a bunch of them at once). I think one of those shelves that had been reducto'ed fell on him.
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timrew - Oct 24, 2003 4:01 pm (#140 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
But do we know which DE became the one with the baby head? Could THAT have been Nott?
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 24, 2003 4:13 pm (#141 of 491)
No, it isn't Nott. When the Death Eaters are splitting up after the sextett smashed the shelves and escaped, Malfoy said: "Leave Nott, leave him, I say. His injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy." That means, Nott was the one, who was knocked out by Hermione in the prophecy room.
The Death Eaters split up in six groups:
1. Bella/ Rodolphus 2. Crabbe/ Rabastan 3. Jugson/ Dolohov 4. MacNair/ Avery 5. Lucius/ Mulciber 6. and Rookwood alone
It can't be Rookwood, because the Baby-Head Death Eater had a companion. It can't be Rodolphus, because the other Death Eater wasn't female. It weren't MacNair, Bellatrix and Lucius, because they were around later. It also weren't Jugson and Dolohov, because they appeared later, too (Dolohov was the one who knocked out Hermione, and he had a partner with him). It probably wasn't Mulciber, because Harry would have recognised Malfoy's voice, if he were the other one. So it means it was either Crabbe, Rabastan Lestrange or Avery.
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timrew - Oct 24, 2003 4:17 pm (#142 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Thank you very much, Neville, for that information.
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Catherine - Oct 24, 2003 4:29 pm (#143 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I know that most wizards, according to Hermione is SS, "don't have logic," but this was nicely done. I'm not sure I could've gotten that by myself.
Excuse me while I register for Logic classes with other wizards in remedial classes.
Cheers, Catherine
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schoff - Oct 25, 2003 2:07 pm (#144 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
icthrestrals posted a short dissection about who the baby DE is at the Annex. He concluded it must have been Avery. Seems logical to me, since Avery is the known screw-up.
You can find the post (and the short thread) here.
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WixenSticks - Oct 26, 2003 3:10 pm (#145 of 491)
Okay, this is my first post here, and I'm a little scatter brained at the moment, so please forgive me if I ramble a bit...
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and here's what I've deduced so far: 1. From S/PS, we know there are 20 students total between Slytherin and Gryffindor in this particular year, as there are 20 brooms laid out for their flying lesson. 2. Five of those 20 are Gryffindor boys... from this I assumed that there were 10 in each house, 5 boys and 5 girls. 3. IF my assumption is correct, then we know 4 of the Slytherin boys (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott) and 4 of the Slytherin girls (Millicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Tracey Davis, and Daphne Greengrass) This leaves the androgynous Blaise Zabini, and doesn't lead me to any conclusion as to Blaise's gender.
So basically, I'm right back where I started, unable to draw any definite conclusion as to who the mystery Slytherin is, but I thought this might help anyone who picked up more than I did.
The only other thought I had was maybe this mystery boy is part thestral and that's why Harry didn't recognize him, as he hadn't been able to see him before... I know, it's a stretch, but maybe... hehe.
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Hem Hem - Oct 26, 2003 4:57 pm (#146 of 491)
Very cute observation, WixenSticks. The character who spontaneiously appeared, almost like a thestral....
Anyways, welcome to the forum. Visit the "Tell About Yourself" thread to introduce yourself, and make sure to search around with the search function (located in the teal bar) to maximize your findings here. Have fun!
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SarcasticGinny - Oct 26, 2003 7:40 pm (#147 of 491)
I thought the mystery Slyth was Nott. I find it interesting that Teddy Nott isn't present at the end confrontation. I wonder if he found out that the DE's all abandoned his injured dad at the Dept. of Mysteries and that's why he doesn't join Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in hassling Harry at the end.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 26, 2003 8:48 pm (#148 of 491)
Let it snow!
Five of those 20 are Gryffindor boys... from this I assumed that there were 10 in each house, 5 boys and 5 girls.
I just wanted to point out that we only know of 3 Gryffindor girls. I know there has been some discussion about whether two Gryffindor girls we've never met actually exist but I highly doubt it (this was brought up on the EZboard discussions). So that means there could potentially be 12 Slytherins in Harry's year (we know from the text, as WixenSticks pointed out, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Parkinson, Bulstrode, Zabini, and Nott; from a biography of JKR from the Biography Channel, we know the names Tracy Davis, Queenie Greengrass). Personally, I know several guys with the name Tracy (spelled without the 'e') so it would seem that we have two Slytherins whose gender we are uncertain of....
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Oct 28, 2003 10:34 am (#149 of 491)
Wannabe writer
Hmm. I haven't really given the matter much thought, but if Nott appears later and doesn't seem to match this boy's description, it's unlikely to be him. There is a custom amongst fan fics to make Blaise a girl, but his/her/its gender has never been specified. It could be him...
Then again, there's no reason why Blaise shouldn't be a 'she'; my middle name is Blaise, and I'm a girl.
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Joost! - Oct 29, 2003 7:41 am (#150 of 491)
Second line of information
Well, I know some guys with Maria as their middle name...
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burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hi everybody!!! Hi Carina, SP! Been ages since Ive been here and in glee to know that you are still out there finding these interesting mind-boggling bits to make me go crazy pulling out my hair trying to figure out. Hee hee
I think thats really interesting that there is one Slytherin who really sticks out there... I dont think its coincidence because obviously JKR has done that before (like my fav example in PoA when Ginny and Neville just happen to show up in the same coach right when the dementors come on so that we can see they were affected by them in weird ways also) I have a feeling we'll be meeting this dd Slytherin soon... and I tend to think it isnt someone we've seen before. And I do think its interesting that his description is much like Snapes as a youth considering that Harry is so much like his father in appearance.
WHo did this boy see die? Was it a parent dying because they decided they didnt want to be a deatheater any more (like Sirus's brother did)? Or did he see a parent/relative kill someone, meaning he could be related to a DE? Or maybe he just saw his old gran die... innocently enough. Either way, he looks on with distaste which means that he doesnt like the looks of the eating beastie..
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 22, 2003 9:40 pm (#102 of 491)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
I don't know, I'm really not sure I want to see a 'good' Slytherin, lest that Slytherin forevermore become the 'token good Slytherin.' -_-
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 23, 2003 12:41 pm (#103 of 491)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
I have to agree with you SP, I don't want a goody-goody Slytherin either...
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S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 1:30 pm (#104 of 491)
Let it snow!
What about good Slytherins, as in plural, Josh?
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Rose Marie Zadorojny Vilella - Sep 24, 2003 2:00 pm (#105 of 491)
She-who-must-not-be-named
I'm posting this here because I think it's where it would fit best. In response to Penny's Griffin info., I said that I had seen it in a book with interesting facts, and that I came across a chapter that said "Why is the Slytherin House allowed in Hogwarts?". I had asked myself this a million times, then it said something that made me think "of course!". I'm going to buy this book, I can't remember exactly how it said it (it was in Spanish anyway but I'm translating it). It said that Dumbledore knows that you have to face your enemies with bravery, etc. (Slytherin isn't exactly and "enemy", but all the bad wizards came from that House), but you also have to face with compassion. He knows that even if your a bad wizard you could change your mind and decide to be good, so he thinks it isn't fair to shut Slytherin out. Or something like that. When I buy that book I'll be posting lots of messages with interesting facts,hehe
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Thom Matheson - Sep 24, 2003 4:55 pm (#106 of 491)
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 20, 2005 4:02 am
I have tried to avoid my usual quips and puns so before posting I wanted to give this even more serious thought. How far back are we going when we look at Hogwarts? 700 to a 1000 years. We have 2 witchs and 2 wizards how basically said, we need a place for higher education for the sake of perpetuating wizard kind. 1 of the four gets angry at the quality of students being admitted regarding the mixture of bloodlines and bales out. The Charter of Slytherin I don't think says "best able to be evil" as a requirement does it. That anymore then "good flyer" says be a seeker for Gryffindor. It said S. is the purest, G is the bravest, R is the Intelligent, and H is anyone else so long as we get them all in.
My point to this is that only by choice have the bad kids gone to Slytherin. My thought is that there are probably bad kids in other houses. Much of this thread has turned into what DD was thinking but doesn't it make sense that all of the many Heads had at one time or another faced similar situations. It is not just what we see in Harry's time. We can't necessarily use the adults here because we don't really know which house they were in let alone if they went to Hogwarts at all.
Much as today we know that the U.S. Constitution was written 300 years ago by men who based their Articles on their current social and political climate, so did the Founders. Dumbledore I think is one of the individual few that realizes that time change and of course time can change. Dumbledore seeks out change. He could have authored the book "Who Moved The Cheese".
When we get to the end of 7 I think that the final most compelling answer to the series is that Rowling, through Dumbledore, will unite the Houses as was intended in the beginning. Evil Slytherins will be overcome and be banished or vanquished by a united Hogwarts.
The mystery Slytherin will be the House itself.
Man, do my fingers hurt.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 6:21 pm (#107 of 491)
Nice thinking, Thom. I'd say give yourself a pat on the back, but if your fingers are so sore....
I like the comparison to the Constitution. That's only 300 years old and we can't agree on what exactly was meant by the framers. Sheesh, can you imagine trying to interpret the H-warts founders thinking from how long ago? Even with the Sorting Hat song, things are not crystal clear.
I love your last line (no, not the one about the fingers, the one before that). It was eloquent and authoritative like all good literary criticism should be.
Ciao. Barb
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Thom Matheson - Sep 24, 2003 7:14 pm (#108 of 491)
Geez Barb, My card catalog is all a flutter. Thank You
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feathy123 - Oct 1, 2003 12:07 am (#109 of 491)
same
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Pink Arjuna - Oct 1, 2003 7:49 am (#110 of 491)
I'd go with the zabini kid as jk doesn't usually mention people for nothing... but who knows?
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Oct 2, 2003 3:41 pm (#111 of 491)
I'm with the group who thinks the Mystery Slytherin is Nott. Zabini may have a role in the books, but I don't think it's the Stringy Slytherin watching the thestrals.
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virgoddess1313 - Oct 2, 2003 3:51 pm (#112 of 491)
I'm throwing my hat in with the Zabini crowd, although, I have to say, I have my doubts over whether or not it's actually really relevent. Call me negative, but I'm not so sure that the fact that this mysterious Sytherin boy can see the thestrals is really going to turn out to be a big deal.
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AlbusRiddle - Oct 2, 2003 4:38 pm (#113 of 491)
Yeah, I have to say it is possible that the mystery boy is irrelevant. She may have just added another random kid because the idea of only two kids in a large class having seen death is unlikely. Or, she may not have wanted to single out Harry and Neville alone so early in the book, which might spoil the "suprise" about the prophecy at the end.
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haymoni - Oct 3, 2003 5:45 am (#114 of 491)
Once again, I do not have my book with me. Did the Thestrals lesson come before Harry's Quibbler article or after?
If it came before, the stringy boy could be either Nott or Zambini.
If it came after the article, I think Harry would have recognized the stringy boy as Nott because Hermione had named him when he was seen huddled together with Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle after the interview was printed.
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virgoddess1313 - Oct 3, 2003 7:58 am (#115 of 491)
It did say something about Nott being weedy (or something like that.. I'm at work and I don't have my book with me). Excellent point.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 3, 2003 10:05 am (#116 of 491)
@ Haymoni: The Thestral lesson came before the Quibbler-article.
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Warty Harris - Oct 4, 2003 11:23 am (#117 of 491)
But then wouldn't Harry have noticed that it was the same boy that saw the thestrals? it would have been pointed out in the book that it was the same boy ie. Harry saw the same boy who recognized the thestrals with Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. If Nott was related to Thestrals somehow. Make sense?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 12:36 pm (#118 of 491)
Let it snow!
Does it say that Harry didn't recognize the boy or that he didn't know his name? He recognized Susan Bones but didn't know her name, I'm betting he recognized Nott as well....
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Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 10:26 pm (#119 of 491)
Mystery Slyhterni? Sorry that I am butting in, but Is this talking about the Slytherin mentioned who could see the Thestrals also or not? If so, who are the current candidiates?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2003 11:53 pm (#120 of 491)
Let it snow!
Yup. Nott and Zabini....
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Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:48 am (#121 of 491)
OK. Well I read previous posts, and there was an argument over who Blaise was and the gender, we cannot know until JK Rowling fully tells us herself, but I have always been a beleiver of Blaise being a female.
Sorry if I am relifting old dust.
Also, There was a Sally-Anne Perks or someone like that, who was also put as an unknown house occupant. Now do we know the gender of the MS (mystery Slytherin)?
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Sly Girl - Oct 5, 2003 10:52 am (#122 of 491)
From the very first post by Josh:
"Turn to page 445...
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail.
Having spent 4 books and well over 150 readings of Harry Potter lore looking for a Slytherin who stands out as different than the rest, this leapt out at me in a huge way.
Who is this 5th-year Slytherin boy?"
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Warty Harris - Oct 5, 2003 2:03 pm (#123 of 491)
I think Blaise Zabini is a boy, and I think he is the Mystery Slytherin who saw the thestrals. I could be wrong, it could be Nott.
I reread page 445 and Hagrid almost says his name, but then is interupted by Umbridge. Now maybe that is just the way the interaction was written to show how rude Umbridge is, but I think it is because JKR. doesn't want to put the name there. If it was Nott,then why wouldn't she..get what I am saying? He is mention other times. Why wouldn't Nott have been mention as the third boy who sees the Thestrals? Maybe I am reading to much into it.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 5, 2003 2:35 pm (#124 of 491)
Because JKR doesn't want us to know that the third person is Theodore Nott. Because than everybody would have asked "Why can Nott see Thestrals?", and maybe the answer to this is really important, and JKR tries as much as possible, to hide it.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:31 pm (#125 of 491)
Aye, Aye, Aye! Well I have always beleived Blaise to be female, but for the sake of possibilities, she could be a he. So Nott and Zabini are our options? I personally can't think of anyone else. I'll check the lexicon and see if they have any 5th year Slytherins with unknown details.
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zixyer - Oct 5, 2003 9:03 pm (#126 of 491)
You know, I always thought that the reason that Rowling wrote about Zambini was as a transition from the sorting to the feast. Sort of like how Euan Abercrombie is mentioned to start the sorting in OotP. They're just mentioned because of how their names fall alphabetically. I'd be surprised if either of them turned out to be important.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 5, 2003 10:04 pm (#127 of 491)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hmm.. well, Susan Bones name was also called at the Sorting and she turned out to be an important character in a way. We know the Bones were killed by DEs (not sure which ones) and her aunt is head f aurors (cant think of exact name of dept forgive me). Its possible that person may come up later.
And in the baby name books I have seen Blaise is a boy name (I have characters who are boys Ive conidered naming that). But I dont know, it could be someone else entirely. It just seems that Harry would have known this 5th year boys name by now after all the classes hes had to endure with the Slytherins... unless he was a new transfer to the school.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 5:43 am (#128 of 491)
I reckon she or he is important. Blaise is a female and male name. We can't fight that fact. Which opens the possibility of her/him being irrelevant in this matter, or being an important person. But the fact that Harry has seen both these people with their names mentioned disturbs me and makes me think it is a new person.
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zelmia - Oct 7, 2003 12:26 pm (#129 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I don't think the Mystery Slytherin is Nott.
When I read that passage in OP the first time (and even on subsequent readings) I, too, automatically thought 'that must be Nott.' But this really doesn't make any sense.
Having just had Nott pointed out to him in a scene not much prior to this, Harry would certainly have recognised him. If it was Nott who could see thestrals, the passage would surely have read something like:
"There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): Theodore Nott, the boy Hermione had just pointed out to Harry in the Library, and Neville..."
OR
"There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): the boy Harry had just seen in the Library reading The Quibbler with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, and Neville..."
Obviously, the real point of this passage is to introduce Neville's ability to see Thestrals. But I think if the other person had been Nott, the passage would have said so straight out, since that character has already been introduced. And please don't answer with "JKR does/doesn't write unless..." Unless the author is changing viewpoints, which is not the case here, absolutely no writer would introduce a character by name and then later refer to that character in such an anonymous manner. There would have to be exceptional circumstances for this to be an acceptable practice. Therefore, this has to be somebody else.
I think that puts Blaise Zabini as the most likely candidate. Blaise is traditionally a male name, regardless of how many females we've all met named Blaise. Blaise Zabini is the only character who is the right age and in the right House. This person is apparently not on the Quidditch team, or Harry would have noticed that "...whom Harry vaguely recognised from the Slytherin Quidditch Team..." would surely have been the mystery boy's most distinguishing feature. (I know Harry only played in one match, but it was against Slytherin.)
My two knuts...
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 7, 2003 1:28 pm (#130 of 491)
But the scene with the Quibbler was after Hagrid introduced the Thestrals.
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zelmia - Oct 7, 2003 2:46 pm (#131 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, then forget everything I said.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 4:21 pm (#132 of 491)
Awww, and such a long post!
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Warty Harris - Oct 8, 2003 4:24 pm (#133 of 491)
No, then it makes even more sense that he wouldn't be Nott. Then Harry would have defintley remembered him! well....maybe not, but most likely. He would have noticed that Terrance would be the other boy that saw the thestrals.
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Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 6:16 pm (#134 of 491)
Well not matter whether he was introduced to him previously or afterwards, he probably would've remembered him with the thestrals (If previosly) as Theodore Nott, or when introduced (if afterwards) as the boy that could see the Thestrals.
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zelmia - Oct 8, 2003 7:19 pm (#135 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
You're right, Warty. What I said before could still fit, since, as you have pointed out, it seems that Harry would have remarked on seeing Nott earlier when Hermione points him out in the Library.
Something like "Hermione pointed out Theodore Nott [or whatever the actual text says], whom Harry recognised from his CMC class as the Slytherin boy who could see Thestrals..."
That makes it seem more like the Mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini - or some heretofore un-introduced character.
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Warty Harris - Oct 8, 2003 7:28 pm (#136 of 491)
Exactly Zelmia...and I meant Theodore. what was I thinking with Terrance?
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zixyer - Oct 8, 2003 7:41 pm (#137 of 491)
All it says is that they saw him in the library and Hermione told Harry that his name was Nott. It doesn't say one way or the other whether Harry recognized him as the one who could see Thestrals. Rowling might have thought she'd be giving too much away if she had written "They were with the weedy-looking boy who Harry remembered could see Thestrals Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott".
Does anyone else thing Harry might have been responsible for killing Theodore Nott's father (or other male relative)? It sounded like, during the battle in the Department of Mysteries, the Death Eater "Nott" was in a pretty bad way.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 9, 2003 2:00 am (#138 of 491)
No, I don't think any of the Death Eaters were killed. I also think that it was Hermione who is mainly responsible, that Nott was hurt. A Death Eater attacked Harry and Hermione stunned him. I suppose this was Nott.
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zixyer - Oct 9, 2003 12:35 pm (#139 of 491)
I'm pretty sure stunning would never cause permanent injury (unless you're hit with a bunch of them at once). I think one of those shelves that had been reducto'ed fell on him.
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timrew - Oct 24, 2003 4:01 pm (#140 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
But do we know which DE became the one with the baby head? Could THAT have been Nott?
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 24, 2003 4:13 pm (#141 of 491)
No, it isn't Nott. When the Death Eaters are splitting up after the sextett smashed the shelves and escaped, Malfoy said: "Leave Nott, leave him, I say. His injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy." That means, Nott was the one, who was knocked out by Hermione in the prophecy room.
The Death Eaters split up in six groups:
1. Bella/ Rodolphus 2. Crabbe/ Rabastan 3. Jugson/ Dolohov 4. MacNair/ Avery 5. Lucius/ Mulciber 6. and Rookwood alone
It can't be Rookwood, because the Baby-Head Death Eater had a companion. It can't be Rodolphus, because the other Death Eater wasn't female. It weren't MacNair, Bellatrix and Lucius, because they were around later. It also weren't Jugson and Dolohov, because they appeared later, too (Dolohov was the one who knocked out Hermione, and he had a partner with him). It probably wasn't Mulciber, because Harry would have recognised Malfoy's voice, if he were the other one. So it means it was either Crabbe, Rabastan Lestrange or Avery.
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timrew - Oct 24, 2003 4:17 pm (#142 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Thank you very much, Neville, for that information.
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Catherine - Oct 24, 2003 4:29 pm (#143 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I know that most wizards, according to Hermione is SS, "don't have logic," but this was nicely done. I'm not sure I could've gotten that by myself.
Excuse me while I register for Logic classes with other wizards in remedial classes.
Cheers, Catherine
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schoff - Oct 25, 2003 2:07 pm (#144 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
icthrestrals posted a short dissection about who the baby DE is at the Annex. He concluded it must have been Avery. Seems logical to me, since Avery is the known screw-up.
You can find the post (and the short thread) here.
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WixenSticks - Oct 26, 2003 3:10 pm (#145 of 491)
Okay, this is my first post here, and I'm a little scatter brained at the moment, so please forgive me if I ramble a bit...
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and here's what I've deduced so far: 1. From S/PS, we know there are 20 students total between Slytherin and Gryffindor in this particular year, as there are 20 brooms laid out for their flying lesson. 2. Five of those 20 are Gryffindor boys... from this I assumed that there were 10 in each house, 5 boys and 5 girls. 3. IF my assumption is correct, then we know 4 of the Slytherin boys (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott) and 4 of the Slytherin girls (Millicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Tracey Davis, and Daphne Greengrass) This leaves the androgynous Blaise Zabini, and doesn't lead me to any conclusion as to Blaise's gender.
So basically, I'm right back where I started, unable to draw any definite conclusion as to who the mystery Slytherin is, but I thought this might help anyone who picked up more than I did.
The only other thought I had was maybe this mystery boy is part thestral and that's why Harry didn't recognize him, as he hadn't been able to see him before... I know, it's a stretch, but maybe... hehe.
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Hem Hem - Oct 26, 2003 4:57 pm (#146 of 491)
Very cute observation, WixenSticks. The character who spontaneiously appeared, almost like a thestral....
Anyways, welcome to the forum. Visit the "Tell About Yourself" thread to introduce yourself, and make sure to search around with the search function (located in the teal bar) to maximize your findings here. Have fun!
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SarcasticGinny - Oct 26, 2003 7:40 pm (#147 of 491)
I thought the mystery Slyth was Nott. I find it interesting that Teddy Nott isn't present at the end confrontation. I wonder if he found out that the DE's all abandoned his injured dad at the Dept. of Mysteries and that's why he doesn't join Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in hassling Harry at the end.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 26, 2003 8:48 pm (#148 of 491)
Let it snow!
Five of those 20 are Gryffindor boys... from this I assumed that there were 10 in each house, 5 boys and 5 girls.
I just wanted to point out that we only know of 3 Gryffindor girls. I know there has been some discussion about whether two Gryffindor girls we've never met actually exist but I highly doubt it (this was brought up on the EZboard discussions). So that means there could potentially be 12 Slytherins in Harry's year (we know from the text, as WixenSticks pointed out, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Parkinson, Bulstrode, Zabini, and Nott; from a biography of JKR from the Biography Channel, we know the names Tracy Davis, Queenie Greengrass). Personally, I know several guys with the name Tracy (spelled without the 'e') so it would seem that we have two Slytherins whose gender we are uncertain of....
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Oct 28, 2003 10:34 am (#149 of 491)
Wannabe writer
Hmm. I haven't really given the matter much thought, but if Nott appears later and doesn't seem to match this boy's description, it's unlikely to be him. There is a custom amongst fan fics to make Blaise a girl, but his/her/its gender has never been specified. It could be him...
Then again, there's no reason why Blaise shouldn't be a 'she'; my middle name is Blaise, and I'm a girl.
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Joost! - Oct 29, 2003 7:41 am (#150 of 491)
Second line of information
Well, I know some guys with Maria as their middle name...
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 151 to 200)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:23 am
Carina - Oct 30, 2003 12:43 pm (#151 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
John Wayne's real name was Marion.
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schoff - Oct 30, 2003 1:01 pm (#152 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
So was my grandpa's...
If anyone is interested, we also discussed this back on the EZboard forum in the Theodore Nott thread. It's not too long, and I thought an interesting discussion.
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timrew - Oct 30, 2003 4:50 pm (#153 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I still think the Mystery Slytherin is Theodore Nott. To me, Blaise Zabini is a girl - no proof, it's just that I've never heard of the name Blaise being used for any UK male, and JKR is a UK writer.
Okay, I don't know of any female called Blaise, either; but it just strikes me as a female name.
Therefore, the Mystery Slytherin has to be "stringy" Nott. I don't think JKR writes descriptions like this without reason.
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Maollelujah - Oct 31, 2003 12:53 am (#154 of 491)
The problem is that we don't know how many Gryffindor's are in Harry's year.
Remember there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts according to JKR. I would assume they were split evenly between the houses, leaving around 250 per house, there are seven years in each house giving each year approx. 35 students.
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Shocking! - Oct 31, 2003 9:01 am (#155 of 491)
Hi Folks, Interesting discussion! FYI- Blaise can be male or female. French origin meaning "Stammerer" according to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Tomoé - Oct 31, 2003 9:17 am (#156 of 491)
Back in business
Shocking! said : "French origin meaning "Stammerer" according to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Oh, I read it came from celtic language and mean "wolf", according to Jean Markale, a specialist in old celtic stories (I don't remember in which book).
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Shocking! - Oct 31, 2003 9:39 am (#157 of 491)
Good call, Tomoe. Some other sources say...
Blaise Celtic Male Meaning: Firebrand
Blaise English Meaning: Flame
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timrew - Oct 31, 2003 11:47 am (#158 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
A stammering wolf, eh?
Aw-w-w-w-w-w-ooooooooooooooo!!
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S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2003 2:50 pm (#159 of 491)
Let it snow!
Or a stammering wolf whose on fire...!
Remember there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts according to JKR. I would assume they were split evenly between the houses, leaving around 250 per house, there are seven years in each house giving each year approx. 35 students.
Why would they be split evenly? They go into houses according to their personality traits, which are very subjective, so there's really nothing that would make this an even distibution.... If you were referring to my post where I mentioned the 12 Slytherins and 8 Gryffindors, I was pulling those numbers directly from the text. There were 20 brooms laid out for the first flying lesson in PS, we know 8 Gryffindors, 20-8=12Slytherins. I agree that this doesn't make much sense, though. There is a quote in OotP about Harry speaking in front of 30 eager listening peers during the first DADA lesson. The only people present, to our knowledge, are the Gryffindors of Harry's year (bit of a difference between 8 and 30). We had a whole discussion about that one line back on the EZboards that was kind of interesting. Some thought that maybe Harry had class with another house, like maybe Ravenclaw, but didn't mention any of their names because he only knows one of the Ravenclaws in his year. Whew! This student head-count thing makes my head hurt....
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Madame Librarian - Oct 31, 2003 4:29 pm (#160 of 491)
I know JKR said that there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts, and I think she just wanted to get across the point that Hogwarts was a large institution where not every kid would know every other kid.
I also think she's purposely vague about house size and year size so she can tailor those things to the needs of the plot. She does not intend for readers to make an exact head-count because she has not.
BTW--Here's an exact quote of the number of kids at the first DA meeting: OoP, ch. 18 (pg. 386, US). Harry is asking Dobby if he could help find a place to have the meeting:
"I need to find a place where twenty-eight people can practice Defense Against the Dark Arts without being discovered by any of the teachers..."
When JKR decided that 28 was a good number of kids to be involved with the DA, I don't think she was doing anything more than picking a nice sounding number--not a huge crowd but more than the 5-7 kids in Harry's closer circle, allowing for some he knew by name, some by sight only. It gives her the freedom to expand on one of the unidentified attendees in future books, or just to create the sense that the DA might be of the size that could be useful in a battle or defensive situation. A roomful of 28 kids all practicing spells, landing on pillows, listening intently to Harry sets a different mood that either just 10 (too few) or 50 (total chaos).
Just my three knuts.
Ciao. Barb
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Maollelujah - Nov 1, 2003 11:27 pm (#161 of 491)
Why would they be split evenly?:
Not exactly evenly, but I would guess that they were pretty much so... It would silly if out of the thousand there were 800 in Slytherin...
Of course Hogwarts is a large school, and it would be silly to think that JKR would mention all the students names, only the ones that are important. I mean the wizarding world in Britian must be larger than the some sixty adults that we know of...
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Peregrine - Nov 3, 2003 10:01 am (#162 of 491)
I noticed that in CoS (US Ch. 5, Pg. 85) that it says: “The dormitory door flew open and in came the other second year Gryffindor boys, Seamus Finnigan, Dean Thomas, and Neville Longbottom.”
This makes it sound like those five are the only Gryffindor boys in the second year, otherwise she probably would have said “in came some of the other second years” or “in came the other boys Harry shared a room with”. So this line fits in better with the 20 broomsticks and the two mystery Gryffindors in the boggart scene—if there are 5 boys and 5 girls (two who go unnamed in PoA).
Hm, that doesn’t really help matters any, does it?
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 6, 2003 4:56 am (#163 of 491)
Wannabe writer
It does seem a little inconceivable that Harry has been taking Care of Magical Creatures for nearly three years now and he doesn't know what this boy is called... But I guess he doesn't socialise with the Slytherins if he can help it, so to him it's just another ugly mug in the House of Big Bads.
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Blast - Nov 9, 2003 11:29 am (#164 of 491)
I think I'm back!
Was not Blaise Pascal a man? Just a thought about the gender.
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Denise P. - Nov 9, 2003 11:38 am (#165 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
While I firmly believe Blaise is male in Harry Potter, name is not always an indication of gender. JKR seems to stay within the norm as far as gender specific names though, which leads me to think Blaise is a he.
I know boys and girls..both named Baily, Colby, Micah, Adyn (Aiden), Terry, Leslie, Kim and Chris.
My youngest daughter is Kierynn...a feminized version of Kieran which is a male name. Kieran is generally a male name and I know one other girl with the name and even then, she has a different spelling.
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Tomoé - Nov 9, 2003 7:18 pm (#166 of 491)
Back in business
Yes Blast end newt, Blaise Pascal was a man. Blaise is a traditional boy name for French speaker, I never heard of a French girl named Blaise. But since JKR is a English Woman ...
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siobhan - Nov 10, 2003 11:47 am (#167 of 491)
To be honest when I heard the name i automatically assumed it was a boy but you all bring up some good points like its French and in French an e at the end means female but it just does not feel right to me to have that nameas a girl. I believe the mystery Slytherin is Nott because he is mentioned more in the books than Blaise. Weak theory I know but I think it would be strange to re-introduce an offhand name in the first book as a major character. Usually she does it one book before the big revelation. Look at mundungus fletcher. By the way kierynn is such a pretty name. My sister is named Ciara which is the female of Ciarán which is the Irish of Kieran. I've always loved that name.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Nov 10, 2003 12:06 pm (#168 of 491)
Siobhan said "...its French and in French an e at the end means female...".
I am dead certain that my husbands uncles, Pierre and André, would argue this point, very strenuously, with you.
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Tomoé - Nov 10, 2003 5:27 pm (#169 of 491)
Back in business
Must of the time French name ending with a "e" are girl names, but there are few exception (there's always exception in French). Some of those are Pierre, Claude, Blaise and Dominique. André is not one of them, Ihavebothbuttocks, because it end with an "é" and not an "e". The female name for André is Andrée.
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siobhan - Nov 18, 2003 12:38 pm (#170 of 491)
Whoops sorry I have both buttocks. Only been studying French for three years and our books don't have many French names in them. They tend to use the same one over and over so i know little more than Pascal, sorry. ( how great our education system is!!) Apart from the few exceptions so, our french teacher always stresses that if it ends with e its a female. She could be wrong as i highly suspect shes never been to France.
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H4RR7P0773R - Nov 19, 2003 7:37 am (#171 of 491)
im really a weasley 67% obbsession with hp
On the discussion of whether the slytherin Blaize is male or female, I dont know whether you get the english comedy programme RED DWARF in the states but in an episode titled TIMESLIDES the comidianne Ruby Wax appeares as a news reporter named Blaize. I will try and find a clip of this and send it to steve thank you dp
I have looked for the clip i promised and i cant find one yet if anybody elce has any luck let me know thanks
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Warty Harris - Nov 19, 2003 10:56 am (#172 of 491)
I still think that Blaise is a boy. I do not know if he is the mystery Slytherin. I can see the name being just a transition name to indicate the ending of the sorting hat ceremony, but it is a different type of name that everyone clearly remembers....unlike Zeller, Rose
I also don't think that Nott is the mystery Slytherin.
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zelmia - Nov 19, 2003 4:28 pm (#173 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Most of the posts on this thread seem to argue about whether or not Blaise Zabini is in fact a boy, and the supporters seem to fall equally on both sides. This clearly isn't getting us anywhere.
Let's try examining the Slytherins who were at Harry's Sorting. Now, I don't have the book in front of me. But weren't these people all Sorted into Slytherin while Harry watched?
Draco Malfoy
Pansy Parkinson
Nott (No first name was given at this time, so we didn't even know whether Nott was a boy or girl. We didn't learn until OP that it was probably Theodore Nott)
Blaise Zabini
Now, again, I don't have the book here at work so I am likely forgetting some students. But the other Slytherins who we know were Sorted weren't mentioned by name (i.e. Crabbe and Goyle). So there could still be some unknown character in that House who is the "mystery Slytherin" from OP.
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Hem Hem - Nov 19, 2003 5:58 pm (#174 of 491)
Sorted people whose Houses have not been revealed thus far:
*Morag McDougal
*"Moon"
*Sally-Anne Perks
Well, Sally-Anne Perks is not the Mystery Slytherin, unless we want to spend the next 70 posts arguing over whether Sally-Anne is a Boys' name or a Girls' name. Morag is also a Girls' name, according to the baby-name book. However, the stdent by the name of Moon remains a mystery entirely, and could be a possibility.
IMO, if JKR wanted there to be someone who we'd learn more about, she'd make sure to mention the name again in passing, and for this, I highly doubt that Moon is the Mystery Slytherin. However, I do think it is worth bringing up as a possiblity.
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Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 6:47 pm (#175 of 491)
Back in business
So the possible names for the mysterious slytherin are :
Theodore Nott (we know he's both slytherin and male)
Blaise Zabini (slytherin)
Tracey Davis (slytherin and maybe a boy, the name appear in the movie's list)
Moon (we don't know his/hers house and sex)
It's seem that a later description a Nott doesn't fit with the description of the mystery slytherin.
Zabini could be a girl.
Tracey is more likely a girl.
We don't know a thing about Moon, so that could be him.
The Mystery student's name could had not yet been introduced, that's another possibility, but that does not help us much.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 19, 2003 9:00 pm (#176 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I have a question that could make this worse and I am sorry if it was mentioned before or if it makes this thread worse, but here goes.
In book 4, Draco says he wanted to go to Durmstrang but his mother wanted him to stay closer to home. This adds more questions as to the identity of the student JK is referring to.
When I was in high school, a lot of people transferred in to my school. Who says you can't do this in the wizarding world? Do you always get your letter when you are 11 or are there some exceptions?
As you all know, Dumbledore is really good at bending the rules for his students and I am sure that if someone transferred into Hogwarts as a 3rd, 5th or 6th year, he wouldn't necessarily make them go through a public sorting ceremony with the whole school watching. This might be something private. Maybe I am wrong. Just another opinion.
I am going to have to give this thread a lot more thought.
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Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 10:46 pm (#177 of 491)
Back in business
Or maybe the student was transfered in the middle of the year. Then he just go to DD's office and be sorted there. So he would be a not yet named student.
Thanks for your comment Anastasia.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 20, 2003 8:39 am (#178 of 491)
Maybe this was mentioned before, but I don't think so. Whether Blaise is male or female, note that when you say the name out loud it's a homonym (sounds the same) as "blaze." Given JKR's use of word clues, I wonder what this can bode. A spectacular fire, arson, cremation (ewww), more to do with fire-breathing dragons? I suppose we are being alerted to keeping this in mind as the plot develops.
As to Zabini, well, nothing came up in the two Italian dictionaries I checked, but if this is a common Italian last name it may have some meaning. Anyone have an idea?
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Nov 21, 2003 8:43 pm (#179 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Other than "you'll always be last in line"? Can't think of anything...
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Madame Librarian - Nov 22, 2003 7:03 am (#180 of 491)
Funny, Zelmia. And, many might ask, "What kind of pasta is that?".
(Still chuckling.)
Ciao. Barb
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Blast - Nov 22, 2003 10:48 am (#181 of 491)
I think I'm back!
What about Blaize Storm the famous Las Vegas entertainer? She was definitly a female.
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Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 12:47 am (#182 of 491)
I plugged Zabini into several name-finder searches and came up with zip, not even a mention.
Nox
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azi - Nov 23, 2003 8:14 am (#183 of 491)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Blaise, according to a babies names book, is a female name from latin meaning a 'stammerer'. Zabini isn't in it.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 8:21 am (#184 of 491)
So maybe there's a student--a loner, embarassed to be a stammerer, unable to fit in, painfully shy, lets his/her resentment build, goes to the dark side--who sets something (Hogwarts, Hagrid's hut?) ablaze. Just a wild thought: JKR referencing a Columbine-type of situation? Way too dark, on second thought.
Ciao. Barb
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 23, 2003 9:59 am (#185 of 491)
Wannabe writer
A bit like the pyromaniac kid in 'Blue Remembered Hills'...
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schoff - Nov 23, 2003 2:47 pm (#186 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Nov 23, 2003 1:49 pm
"Zambini" would be a cool name for a trapeze artist. 'Course it also makes me think of a "zamboni", but I can't imagine how an ice skating rink machine would relate to the story...
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Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 4:04 pm (#187 of 491)
schoff, it's Zabini, not Zambini. But you're right, it did make me think of the zamboni machine at hockey games. I am not a hockey fan, but there were a whole series of "Peanuts" cartoons in the paper a few years back where Snoopy, the ace hockey player, ends up riding the zamboni (I think I've got that right. Anybody remember the exact details?).
Ciao. Barb
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Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 4:46 pm (#188 of 491)
Zabini actually sounds like some kind of pasta. Maybe the Zabinis have a restaurant in Diagon Alley.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 23, 2003 4:48 pm (#189 of 491)
Let it snow!
Are we watching our spelling (I mean with respect to the names)? I know there is sometimes a difference in gender based on the way the name is spelled. For instance, the name Stacey (feminine, from Anastasia) and my brother's name, Stacy (male, from Eustace). You often see similar things with Tracey (female) and Tracy (male) and the like, and then with names that show slightly more spelling variation but sound the exact same, such as Erin (female) and Aaron (male). I noticed that almost all the examples people have been giving of men named Blaise, the name's been spelled "Blaise" while examples of women have the name spelled "Blaize". Now there are always exceptions to every naming rule, but I just noticed so I thought I'd ask to give everyone something to keep in mind while they're searching through databases....
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schoff - Nov 24, 2003 12:34 am (#190 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Nov 23, 2003 11:37 pm
Well, if JKR is following the male/female versions of names, maybe we could make a few decisions, SE! But I don't think we know if she does, and that's where the controversy lies.
In the real world, male/female versions of names are a myth. I'm a substitute teacher, and I cannot tell you the many spellings parents come up with for the same name for both boys and girls. It's irritating when I'm trying not to look like an idiot when I mispronounce some of them (thinking they're fancier than they are).
Edit: Oh, yeah, sorry about the wrong name thing...
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 2:40 pm (#191 of 491)
Let it snow!
schoff: In the real world, male/female versions of names are a myth.
That's not entirely true. The three examples I gave are all of people I knew: Stacey (female) was my best friend in elementary school, Stacy (male) is my brother, Tracey (female) was another friend, Tracy (male) was also a friend, Erin (female) was a friend, and Aaron (male) is my brother. I can name numerous others if you like Billy (male), Billie (female), Joe (male), Jo (female), etc. My point being, the variation in naming for gender does exist. People may be moving away from it but I'm not aware of any great trend. I guess it could also be cultural... Does the UK have a tradition of name spelling variation? Anyone know?
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Madame Librarian - Nov 24, 2003 2:58 pm (#192 of 491)
What's the rule on the old-fashioned names Frances/Francis and Leslie/Lesley? I believe that it's female/male, respectively. Not sure, wouldn't make a large wager.
Ciao. Barb
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 24, 2003 3:19 pm (#193 of 491)
I think this goes a bit off topic, but about Leslie: Leslie Nielsen is male, and Leslie Easterbrook, who played Sergeant Callahan in Police Academy is female. I think they are both spelled the same way.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 5:11 pm (#194 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought the masculine one was generally Leslie.... Yes, I agree that there are exceptions to all naming rules, for instance you may see females using the "masculine" spelling but almost never see males using the "feminine" spelling. Still, does anyone know if the UK has a tradition of gender specific name spellings?
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 5:16 pm (#195 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think it's very similar to the US way of naming, Sarah. But, I must admit, I don't know of anyone called Blaise (or Blaize), male or female, in the UK.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 5:27 pm (#196 of 491)
Let it snow!
Thanks Tim! I knew one of our trusty UK members would stumble upon the conversation eventually.....
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2003 5:32 pm (#197 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Okay, well, now we're back on to the "is it a he or a she" discussion... The topic is "who is the mystery slytherin?"
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 5:38 pm (#198 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Well, Zelmia, I still think it's Theodore Nott, and I still haven't changed my mind.
I think the whole Blaize Zabini thing has been an enormous red herring, and who cares whether he/she is male or female? And, does it really matter?
I think, Nott, in OOP, is being set up to be the 'Cedric' of book 6. Not a mainstream character, but an important one for one book, maybe....
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2003 5:48 pm (#199 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I too think it's Nott. We don't have too many other choices.
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 6:06 pm (#200 of 491)
#200
Hi!
I am Back!
I don't think that it is Nott. Hagrid doesn't name him in the Forbidden Forest. Why not? We all know Nott. Why wouldn't Hagrid have finished the sentence? I think that the Mystery Slytherin is important, but I don't think he is Nott.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
and her killer bunny rabbit
John Wayne's real name was Marion.
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schoff - Oct 30, 2003 1:01 pm (#152 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
So was my grandpa's...
If anyone is interested, we also discussed this back on the EZboard forum in the Theodore Nott thread. It's not too long, and I thought an interesting discussion.
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timrew - Oct 30, 2003 4:50 pm (#153 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I still think the Mystery Slytherin is Theodore Nott. To me, Blaise Zabini is a girl - no proof, it's just that I've never heard of the name Blaise being used for any UK male, and JKR is a UK writer.
Okay, I don't know of any female called Blaise, either; but it just strikes me as a female name.
Therefore, the Mystery Slytherin has to be "stringy" Nott. I don't think JKR writes descriptions like this without reason.
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Maollelujah - Oct 31, 2003 12:53 am (#154 of 491)
The problem is that we don't know how many Gryffindor's are in Harry's year.
Remember there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts according to JKR. I would assume they were split evenly between the houses, leaving around 250 per house, there are seven years in each house giving each year approx. 35 students.
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Shocking! - Oct 31, 2003 9:01 am (#155 of 491)
Hi Folks, Interesting discussion! FYI- Blaise can be male or female. French origin meaning "Stammerer" according to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Tomoé - Oct 31, 2003 9:17 am (#156 of 491)
Back in business
Shocking! said : "French origin meaning "Stammerer" according to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Oh, I read it came from celtic language and mean "wolf", according to Jean Markale, a specialist in old celtic stories (I don't remember in which book).
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Shocking! - Oct 31, 2003 9:39 am (#157 of 491)
Good call, Tomoe. Some other sources say...
Blaise Celtic Male Meaning: Firebrand
Blaise English Meaning: Flame
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timrew - Oct 31, 2003 11:47 am (#158 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
A stammering wolf, eh?
Aw-w-w-w-w-w-ooooooooooooooo!!
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S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2003 2:50 pm (#159 of 491)
Let it snow!
Or a stammering wolf whose on fire...!
Remember there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts according to JKR. I would assume they were split evenly between the houses, leaving around 250 per house, there are seven years in each house giving each year approx. 35 students.
Why would they be split evenly? They go into houses according to their personality traits, which are very subjective, so there's really nothing that would make this an even distibution.... If you were referring to my post where I mentioned the 12 Slytherins and 8 Gryffindors, I was pulling those numbers directly from the text. There were 20 brooms laid out for the first flying lesson in PS, we know 8 Gryffindors, 20-8=12Slytherins. I agree that this doesn't make much sense, though. There is a quote in OotP about Harry speaking in front of 30 eager listening peers during the first DADA lesson. The only people present, to our knowledge, are the Gryffindors of Harry's year (bit of a difference between 8 and 30). We had a whole discussion about that one line back on the EZboards that was kind of interesting. Some thought that maybe Harry had class with another house, like maybe Ravenclaw, but didn't mention any of their names because he only knows one of the Ravenclaws in his year. Whew! This student head-count thing makes my head hurt....
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Madame Librarian - Oct 31, 2003 4:29 pm (#160 of 491)
I know JKR said that there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts, and I think she just wanted to get across the point that Hogwarts was a large institution where not every kid would know every other kid.
I also think she's purposely vague about house size and year size so she can tailor those things to the needs of the plot. She does not intend for readers to make an exact head-count because she has not.
BTW--Here's an exact quote of the number of kids at the first DA meeting: OoP, ch. 18 (pg. 386, US). Harry is asking Dobby if he could help find a place to have the meeting:
"I need to find a place where twenty-eight people can practice Defense Against the Dark Arts without being discovered by any of the teachers..."
When JKR decided that 28 was a good number of kids to be involved with the DA, I don't think she was doing anything more than picking a nice sounding number--not a huge crowd but more than the 5-7 kids in Harry's closer circle, allowing for some he knew by name, some by sight only. It gives her the freedom to expand on one of the unidentified attendees in future books, or just to create the sense that the DA might be of the size that could be useful in a battle or defensive situation. A roomful of 28 kids all practicing spells, landing on pillows, listening intently to Harry sets a different mood that either just 10 (too few) or 50 (total chaos).
Just my three knuts.
Ciao. Barb
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Maollelujah - Nov 1, 2003 11:27 pm (#161 of 491)
Why would they be split evenly?:
Not exactly evenly, but I would guess that they were pretty much so... It would silly if out of the thousand there were 800 in Slytherin...
Of course Hogwarts is a large school, and it would be silly to think that JKR would mention all the students names, only the ones that are important. I mean the wizarding world in Britian must be larger than the some sixty adults that we know of...
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Peregrine - Nov 3, 2003 10:01 am (#162 of 491)
I noticed that in CoS (US Ch. 5, Pg. 85) that it says: “The dormitory door flew open and in came the other second year Gryffindor boys, Seamus Finnigan, Dean Thomas, and Neville Longbottom.”
This makes it sound like those five are the only Gryffindor boys in the second year, otherwise she probably would have said “in came some of the other second years” or “in came the other boys Harry shared a room with”. So this line fits in better with the 20 broomsticks and the two mystery Gryffindors in the boggart scene—if there are 5 boys and 5 girls (two who go unnamed in PoA).
Hm, that doesn’t really help matters any, does it?
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 6, 2003 4:56 am (#163 of 491)
Wannabe writer
It does seem a little inconceivable that Harry has been taking Care of Magical Creatures for nearly three years now and he doesn't know what this boy is called... But I guess he doesn't socialise with the Slytherins if he can help it, so to him it's just another ugly mug in the House of Big Bads.
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Blast - Nov 9, 2003 11:29 am (#164 of 491)
I think I'm back!
Was not Blaise Pascal a man? Just a thought about the gender.
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Denise P. - Nov 9, 2003 11:38 am (#165 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
While I firmly believe Blaise is male in Harry Potter, name is not always an indication of gender. JKR seems to stay within the norm as far as gender specific names though, which leads me to think Blaise is a he.
I know boys and girls..both named Baily, Colby, Micah, Adyn (Aiden), Terry, Leslie, Kim and Chris.
My youngest daughter is Kierynn...a feminized version of Kieran which is a male name. Kieran is generally a male name and I know one other girl with the name and even then, she has a different spelling.
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Tomoé - Nov 9, 2003 7:18 pm (#166 of 491)
Back in business
Yes Blast end newt, Blaise Pascal was a man. Blaise is a traditional boy name for French speaker, I never heard of a French girl named Blaise. But since JKR is a English Woman ...
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siobhan - Nov 10, 2003 11:47 am (#167 of 491)
To be honest when I heard the name i automatically assumed it was a boy but you all bring up some good points like its French and in French an e at the end means female but it just does not feel right to me to have that nameas a girl. I believe the mystery Slytherin is Nott because he is mentioned more in the books than Blaise. Weak theory I know but I think it would be strange to re-introduce an offhand name in the first book as a major character. Usually she does it one book before the big revelation. Look at mundungus fletcher. By the way kierynn is such a pretty name. My sister is named Ciara which is the female of Ciarán which is the Irish of Kieran. I've always loved that name.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Nov 10, 2003 12:06 pm (#168 of 491)
Siobhan said "...its French and in French an e at the end means female...".
I am dead certain that my husbands uncles, Pierre and André, would argue this point, very strenuously, with you.
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Tomoé - Nov 10, 2003 5:27 pm (#169 of 491)
Back in business
Must of the time French name ending with a "e" are girl names, but there are few exception (there's always exception in French). Some of those are Pierre, Claude, Blaise and Dominique. André is not one of them, Ihavebothbuttocks, because it end with an "é" and not an "e". The female name for André is Andrée.
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siobhan - Nov 18, 2003 12:38 pm (#170 of 491)
Whoops sorry I have both buttocks. Only been studying French for three years and our books don't have many French names in them. They tend to use the same one over and over so i know little more than Pascal, sorry. ( how great our education system is!!) Apart from the few exceptions so, our french teacher always stresses that if it ends with e its a female. She could be wrong as i highly suspect shes never been to France.
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H4RR7P0773R - Nov 19, 2003 7:37 am (#171 of 491)
im really a weasley 67% obbsession with hp
On the discussion of whether the slytherin Blaize is male or female, I dont know whether you get the english comedy programme RED DWARF in the states but in an episode titled TIMESLIDES the comidianne Ruby Wax appeares as a news reporter named Blaize. I will try and find a clip of this and send it to steve thank you dp
I have looked for the clip i promised and i cant find one yet if anybody elce has any luck let me know thanks
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Warty Harris - Nov 19, 2003 10:56 am (#172 of 491)
I still think that Blaise is a boy. I do not know if he is the mystery Slytherin. I can see the name being just a transition name to indicate the ending of the sorting hat ceremony, but it is a different type of name that everyone clearly remembers....unlike Zeller, Rose
I also don't think that Nott is the mystery Slytherin.
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zelmia - Nov 19, 2003 4:28 pm (#173 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Most of the posts on this thread seem to argue about whether or not Blaise Zabini is in fact a boy, and the supporters seem to fall equally on both sides. This clearly isn't getting us anywhere.
Let's try examining the Slytherins who were at Harry's Sorting. Now, I don't have the book in front of me. But weren't these people all Sorted into Slytherin while Harry watched?
Draco Malfoy
Pansy Parkinson
Nott (No first name was given at this time, so we didn't even know whether Nott was a boy or girl. We didn't learn until OP that it was probably Theodore Nott)
Blaise Zabini
Now, again, I don't have the book here at work so I am likely forgetting some students. But the other Slytherins who we know were Sorted weren't mentioned by name (i.e. Crabbe and Goyle). So there could still be some unknown character in that House who is the "mystery Slytherin" from OP.
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Hem Hem - Nov 19, 2003 5:58 pm (#174 of 491)
Sorted people whose Houses have not been revealed thus far:
*Morag McDougal
*"Moon"
*Sally-Anne Perks
Well, Sally-Anne Perks is not the Mystery Slytherin, unless we want to spend the next 70 posts arguing over whether Sally-Anne is a Boys' name or a Girls' name. Morag is also a Girls' name, according to the baby-name book. However, the stdent by the name of Moon remains a mystery entirely, and could be a possibility.
IMO, if JKR wanted there to be someone who we'd learn more about, she'd make sure to mention the name again in passing, and for this, I highly doubt that Moon is the Mystery Slytherin. However, I do think it is worth bringing up as a possiblity.
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Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 6:47 pm (#175 of 491)
Back in business
So the possible names for the mysterious slytherin are :
Theodore Nott (we know he's both slytherin and male)
Blaise Zabini (slytherin)
Tracey Davis (slytherin and maybe a boy, the name appear in the movie's list)
Moon (we don't know his/hers house and sex)
It's seem that a later description a Nott doesn't fit with the description of the mystery slytherin.
Zabini could be a girl.
Tracey is more likely a girl.
We don't know a thing about Moon, so that could be him.
The Mystery student's name could had not yet been introduced, that's another possibility, but that does not help us much.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 19, 2003 9:00 pm (#176 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I have a question that could make this worse and I am sorry if it was mentioned before or if it makes this thread worse, but here goes.
In book 4, Draco says he wanted to go to Durmstrang but his mother wanted him to stay closer to home. This adds more questions as to the identity of the student JK is referring to.
When I was in high school, a lot of people transferred in to my school. Who says you can't do this in the wizarding world? Do you always get your letter when you are 11 or are there some exceptions?
As you all know, Dumbledore is really good at bending the rules for his students and I am sure that if someone transferred into Hogwarts as a 3rd, 5th or 6th year, he wouldn't necessarily make them go through a public sorting ceremony with the whole school watching. This might be something private. Maybe I am wrong. Just another opinion.
I am going to have to give this thread a lot more thought.
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Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 10:46 pm (#177 of 491)
Back in business
Or maybe the student was transfered in the middle of the year. Then he just go to DD's office and be sorted there. So he would be a not yet named student.
Thanks for your comment Anastasia.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 20, 2003 8:39 am (#178 of 491)
Maybe this was mentioned before, but I don't think so. Whether Blaise is male or female, note that when you say the name out loud it's a homonym (sounds the same) as "blaze." Given JKR's use of word clues, I wonder what this can bode. A spectacular fire, arson, cremation (ewww), more to do with fire-breathing dragons? I suppose we are being alerted to keeping this in mind as the plot develops.
As to Zabini, well, nothing came up in the two Italian dictionaries I checked, but if this is a common Italian last name it may have some meaning. Anyone have an idea?
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Nov 21, 2003 8:43 pm (#179 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Other than "you'll always be last in line"? Can't think of anything...
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Madame Librarian - Nov 22, 2003 7:03 am (#180 of 491)
Funny, Zelmia. And, many might ask, "What kind of pasta is that?".
(Still chuckling.)
Ciao. Barb
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Blast - Nov 22, 2003 10:48 am (#181 of 491)
I think I'm back!
What about Blaize Storm the famous Las Vegas entertainer? She was definitly a female.
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Nox NotteTorrente - Nov 23, 2003 12:47 am (#182 of 491)
I plugged Zabini into several name-finder searches and came up with zip, not even a mention.
Nox
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azi - Nov 23, 2003 8:14 am (#183 of 491)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Blaise, according to a babies names book, is a female name from latin meaning a 'stammerer'. Zabini isn't in it.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 8:21 am (#184 of 491)
So maybe there's a student--a loner, embarassed to be a stammerer, unable to fit in, painfully shy, lets his/her resentment build, goes to the dark side--who sets something (Hogwarts, Hagrid's hut?) ablaze. Just a wild thought: JKR referencing a Columbine-type of situation? Way too dark, on second thought.
Ciao. Barb
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Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 23, 2003 9:59 am (#185 of 491)
Wannabe writer
A bit like the pyromaniac kid in 'Blue Remembered Hills'...
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schoff - Nov 23, 2003 2:47 pm (#186 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Nov 23, 2003 1:49 pm
"Zambini" would be a cool name for a trapeze artist. 'Course it also makes me think of a "zamboni", but I can't imagine how an ice skating rink machine would relate to the story...
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Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 4:04 pm (#187 of 491)
schoff, it's Zabini, not Zambini. But you're right, it did make me think of the zamboni machine at hockey games. I am not a hockey fan, but there were a whole series of "Peanuts" cartoons in the paper a few years back where Snoopy, the ace hockey player, ends up riding the zamboni (I think I've got that right. Anybody remember the exact details?).
Ciao. Barb
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Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2003 4:46 pm (#188 of 491)
Zabini actually sounds like some kind of pasta. Maybe the Zabinis have a restaurant in Diagon Alley.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 23, 2003 4:48 pm (#189 of 491)
Let it snow!
Are we watching our spelling (I mean with respect to the names)? I know there is sometimes a difference in gender based on the way the name is spelled. For instance, the name Stacey (feminine, from Anastasia) and my brother's name, Stacy (male, from Eustace). You often see similar things with Tracey (female) and Tracy (male) and the like, and then with names that show slightly more spelling variation but sound the exact same, such as Erin (female) and Aaron (male). I noticed that almost all the examples people have been giving of men named Blaise, the name's been spelled "Blaise" while examples of women have the name spelled "Blaize". Now there are always exceptions to every naming rule, but I just noticed so I thought I'd ask to give everyone something to keep in mind while they're searching through databases....
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schoff - Nov 24, 2003 12:34 am (#190 of 491)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Nov 23, 2003 11:37 pm
Well, if JKR is following the male/female versions of names, maybe we could make a few decisions, SE! But I don't think we know if she does, and that's where the controversy lies.
In the real world, male/female versions of names are a myth. I'm a substitute teacher, and I cannot tell you the many spellings parents come up with for the same name for both boys and girls. It's irritating when I'm trying not to look like an idiot when I mispronounce some of them (thinking they're fancier than they are).
Edit: Oh, yeah, sorry about the wrong name thing...
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 2:40 pm (#191 of 491)
Let it snow!
schoff: In the real world, male/female versions of names are a myth.
That's not entirely true. The three examples I gave are all of people I knew: Stacey (female) was my best friend in elementary school, Stacy (male) is my brother, Tracey (female) was another friend, Tracy (male) was also a friend, Erin (female) was a friend, and Aaron (male) is my brother. I can name numerous others if you like Billy (male), Billie (female), Joe (male), Jo (female), etc. My point being, the variation in naming for gender does exist. People may be moving away from it but I'm not aware of any great trend. I guess it could also be cultural... Does the UK have a tradition of name spelling variation? Anyone know?
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Madame Librarian - Nov 24, 2003 2:58 pm (#192 of 491)
What's the rule on the old-fashioned names Frances/Francis and Leslie/Lesley? I believe that it's female/male, respectively. Not sure, wouldn't make a large wager.
Ciao. Barb
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 24, 2003 3:19 pm (#193 of 491)
I think this goes a bit off topic, but about Leslie: Leslie Nielsen is male, and Leslie Easterbrook, who played Sergeant Callahan in Police Academy is female. I think they are both spelled the same way.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 5:11 pm (#194 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought the masculine one was generally Leslie.... Yes, I agree that there are exceptions to all naming rules, for instance you may see females using the "masculine" spelling but almost never see males using the "feminine" spelling. Still, does anyone know if the UK has a tradition of gender specific name spellings?
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 5:16 pm (#195 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think it's very similar to the US way of naming, Sarah. But, I must admit, I don't know of anyone called Blaise (or Blaize), male or female, in the UK.
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S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 5:27 pm (#196 of 491)
Let it snow!
Thanks Tim! I knew one of our trusty UK members would stumble upon the conversation eventually.....
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2003 5:32 pm (#197 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Okay, well, now we're back on to the "is it a he or a she" discussion... The topic is "who is the mystery slytherin?"
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 5:38 pm (#198 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Well, Zelmia, I still think it's Theodore Nott, and I still haven't changed my mind.
I think the whole Blaize Zabini thing has been an enormous red herring, and who cares whether he/she is male or female? And, does it really matter?
I think, Nott, in OOP, is being set up to be the 'Cedric' of book 6. Not a mainstream character, but an important one for one book, maybe....
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2003 5:48 pm (#199 of 491)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I too think it's Nott. We don't have too many other choices.
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 6:06 pm (#200 of 491)
#200
Hi!
I am Back!
I don't think that it is Nott. Hagrid doesn't name him in the Forbidden Forest. Why not? We all know Nott. Why wouldn't Hagrid have finished the sentence? I think that the Mystery Slytherin is important, but I don't think he is Nott.
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 6:13 pm (#201 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You think it's not Nott, Warty?
Well, I think it is Nott, and Zelmia thinks it is Nott. But if you think it's not Nott, then we have a knotty problem, as to whether it is Nott, or it's not Nott.
I think we should put it to the vote. Is it Nott or not? Yes, or not.
Vote after the buzzer.....
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Hem Hem - Nov 24, 2003 6:28 pm (#202 of 491)
To be or Nott to be....
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "We all know Nott," Warty Harris. At the point in the series when Hagrid introduces the thestrals, the reader has not yet been presented with as much as Nott's first name...and we know that Harry doesn't know his name yet at that point either, because Hermione points it out later on in the year.
I agree that Nott is a wonderful candidate for the Mystery Slytherin...we would never have to resolve whether Zabini is a boy or a girl. Additionally, with Nott coming from a DE family, he raises much more intersting speculation in regards to the death he witnessed from his past, and how that death may have impacted his view of the DEs....
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 6:44 pm (#203 of 491)
According to the Lexicon Blaise is a male.
In the Chapter where they (HRH) are in the Library, Hermione points Nott out. Harry doesn't recognize him as the same boy who saw the Thestrals. This doesn't mean that Nott isn't the same boy, but why wouldn't Harry have remembered that it was the same boy?
Why was the scene involving the Thestrals written in the way that it was?
Hagrid doesn't ever say the name of the third boy. Why?
I don't think the name remains hidden in that chapter only to be rvealed in the Library scene.
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 6:48 pm (#204 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
As far as I'm concerned, Blaise can go to Blaises......
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 7:02 pm (#205 of 491)
The only thing that may point to Nott being the Mystery Slytherin in the Care of Magical Creatures Class is the fact that he is standing behind Goyle. (behind Goyle is where Nott usually is)
Also, he seems to be important.
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Carina - Nov 24, 2003 7:16 pm (#206 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
I keep asking myself: Who is the mystery Slytherin? Is it Blaise? I think Nott.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 24, 2003 8:59 pm (#207 of 491)
Honest, I do believe JKR purposely named the kid Nott just to yank our chains and get us going on the Forum thread. I have laughed a lot reading the last 10 or so posts (tim, did you ever imagine in your wildest dreams that you'd have such a vast assortment of international straight men setting you up for the punch?), and my only concern is when this character shows up on film for the first time, I may be inclined to shout out, "That's not Nott; it's Blaise for heaven's sake!"
Sorry, I know we are trying our darndest to stay on topic here.
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Nov 25, 2003 8:29 am (#208 of 491)
Let it snow!
In the Chapter where they (HRH) are in the Library, Hermione points Nott out. Harry doesn't recognize him as the same boy who saw the Thestrals. This doesn't mean that Nott isn't the same boy, but why wouldn't Harry have remembered that it was the same boy?
Well, it doesn't say that Harry doesn't physically recognize the guy, just that he didn't know his name, so he may have recognized him as the one who was afraid of the threstrals. As to why he didn't specifically point that out to us, he doesn't say he doens't physically recognize the boy behind Goyle so he may have recognized his face from somewhere aside from the Care of Magical Creatures Class. Know what I mean?
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Kathryn Pottinger - Nov 27, 2003 5:06 am (#209 of 491)
I know what you mean. Presumably, Harry will have seen everyone in his year at some point but you wouldn't expect him to mention where he had last seen everyone he bumps into. I think Nott is the ComC Slytherin and that it could quite possible become important. AlbusRiddle said:
"She may have just added another random kid because the idea of only two kids in a large class having seen death is unlikely"
But I think the opposite. How many 15 year olds have have seen someone actually die? I would think not that many. And, (depending on your opinion on the whole numbers debate) there were probably only 20 kids in that class, which means 15% of them have witnessed death. I find that quite high. In fact, I would find just 10% of a random group of schoolkids (ie Harry and Neville only) to have witnessed someone die quite high and consequently that for JK Rowling to have included an extra person who has seen death, that fact must be somehow relevant or important.
(Incidently, I knew someone called Blaize when I was at school and it was a .............girl! Although I think that particular debate can only be solved by JK Rowling herself)
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H4RR7P0773R - Nov 28, 2003 2:27 am (#210 of 491)
im really a weasley 67% obbsession with hp
SORRY FOR GOING OFF TOPIC FORGIVE ME I posted on the 19th november On the discussion of whether the slytherin Blaize is male or female, I dont know whether you get the english comedy programme RED DWARF in the states but in an episode titled TIMESLIDES the comidianne Ruby Wax appeares as a news reporter named Blaize. I will try and find a clip of this and send it to steve thank you dp Just something elce I noticed whilst watching this episode again The photos move because Kryten developes them in a contaminated fluid so maybe JKR is a red dwarf fan and got the name and the idea of the pictures from here any ideas ???????????
P.S may I be the first to wish you all a merry christmas and a happy hogmanay{new year}
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Tomoé - Nov 28, 2003 8:13 am (#211 of 491)
Back in business
Is Blaise Zabini a boy or a girl ? We have evidences for both so far, JKR is the only one who can give the final answer, I'm afraid -_- . However, I don't think JKR is a red dwarf ^_^ .
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 9:42 am (#212 of 491)
according to the lexicon....Blaise is a male. While interpreting the book to other languages, the publishers needed to know if the characters were male or female. I don't think that this means for 100%, but I think Blaise is a male.
Also...in an interview JKR had a list of characters that she took down as notes and Blaise was listed under boys. I have heard that anyway (BBC around Christmas) but that is all just rumour.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 28, 2003 10:18 am (#213 of 491)
While interpreting the book to other languages, the publishers needed to know if the characters were male or female
Well, in the German books Blaise is female.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 10:39 am (#214 of 491)
the German language is not one that has male and female verbage .(this means verbs are not masculine and feminine like Spanish and Italian) but I have never read the German version. what does it say?
I did a search and in this interview JKR has Blaise listed as a male.
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Denise P. - Nov 28, 2003 10:40 am (#215 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Which interview was that, Warty?
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 10:47 am (#216 of 491)
Christmas BBC...She shows a list of Students as part of notes she has taken. The last on the list of boys is Blaise Zabini.
I will try to find it again.....
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 28, 2003 11:45 am (#217 of 491)
but I have never read the German version. what does it say?
It says "Blaise Zabini wurde eine Slytherin", if it were a boy, it would have said "Blaise Zabini wurde ein Slytherin". But I just remembered (well, after looking for the scene), that in the same scene Lavender Brown is male. Therefore the German translator probably knew as much about the students genders, as we do.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 12:40 pm (#218 of 491)
I cannot find a complete picture of the notebook pages.
Davis, Greengrass, Bullstrode, and Parkinson are Girls
Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott are boys
I remember Blaise being a boy, but now I cannot get confirmation
I have a 2 different people who say totally different things. One said that the list confirms that Blaise is a boy. The other person "thought" it said Blaise was a girl. This Slytherin still remains a mystery. I think Moon is a girl by the way, and so of course is Sally Ann Perks. Both have no house..that we know of yet.
on a side note
Are all those children yours NoVeil4Me ?
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Denise P. - Nov 28, 2003 2:27 pm (#219 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yes, all 6 of them belong to me. My two oldest no longer live at home so they are not pictured.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 2:52 pm (#220 of 491)
So you have 8 children all together? Wow...that would be overwhelming for me.
I know that in the UK version of this interview you can see more of the notebook. There are no pictures on the internet. I do remember thinking Moon was a girl, and Zabini was a boy. That leaves 5 girls and 1 boy left unaccounted for. I am going on the assumption that Z. Smith is Zacharias Smith in Hufflepuff(The lexicon can't confirm the years he was there)
Perks and Moon are Girls and lets assume in Gryffindor(I have no reason for this) Blaise is a boy and in Slytherin.
That Leaves one Slytherin girl unnamed, one Hufflepuff boy, and two Hufflepuff girls unnamed.
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Warty Harris - Dec 2, 2003 6:22 pm (#221 of 491)
As mentioned in another thread I won't be checking in as often.
However, before I go I looked up Blaise Zabini on a search engine, and it seems others have questioned his gender before I think that this is something that will remain a disagreement in fanfic,(of which I am not into) but I wonder if anyone else has info on Blaise Zabini, or whom the mystery Slytherin may be.
If there are 10 people in Gryffindor and 10 people in Slytherin, then we are missing 3 girls and 1 boy. The mystery Slytherin may not be such a mystery.
It may be Nott, or it could be an unnamed boy, Blaise may be a girl...I simply do not know.
My prediction is that the mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini(who is male), and this mystery Slytherin may play more of a role in book #6 or #7...whether it be Nott or Zabini.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 8:14 pm (#222 of 491)
Back in business
I took a look at the university library, and I didn't found Zabini, even in native Italian dictionaries in 5 or 7 volumes . The closest entry that I found is Sabini, the Sabine poeple, back in the legend of the foundation of Rome.
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Fawkes Forever - Dec 4, 2003 8:22 am (#223 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Edited by Denise P. Dec 4, 2003 8:24 am
Well, it took me most of today & by abandoning my ever increasing work load, I finally found the screen shots of JK's notebook (see how dedicated I am ) I just knew I had seen them somewhere.
So here they are, for all to peruse... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Unfortunately they don't throw any light on Blaises' gender.... if you look at the 3rd school list picture, you can just about make out the name Zabini (last i is cut off) in the bottom right hand corner.... but nothing more. There is a key on the list, it appears that girls are indentified by circles, whilst boys are identified by black squares, if only we could move the photo over just a fraction. Oh well, not time completely wasted, the other pics are fun to look at too
Upon my travels through Cyber Space, I came upon this fans website... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a lot of work has gone into this & makes for interesting reading, of course it’s not Canon, & the author has no idea if Blaise is a boy or a girl, but it’s worth having a look at all the same....
Phew..... I think I need a nice, (dare I say well deserved) cup of coffee. However seeing as I'm at work I think I'll make do with just a cup of coffee (note I dropped the 'nice' prefix )
So indeed the answer lies in that book *accio notebook*
The mystery continues.....
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Peregrine - Dec 4, 2003 8:45 am (#224 of 491)
Oh, it was so close. Surely the camera panned across the full name and circle/square so maybe there’s still a chance at getting a look at the whole thing.
Well done, Fawkes Forever! I’d say you deserve cookie (or biscuit depending where you are) along with your coffee.
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Fawkes Forever - Dec 4, 2003 9:03 am (#225 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
We will just have to wait for a re-run of the show..... why didn't I tape it.... actually, maybe I did..... but if I did, the video tape is at my parents house... so I'll have a look for it over the Christmas holidays.....
Cookie / Biscuit.... I'll eat both Just treated myself to a packet of mint munchies (small chocolate sweets [candy] with a minty centre)... hmmm lovely, doesn't disguise the taste of the yukky work coffee though
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Ladybug220 - Dec 4, 2003 11:33 am (#226 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Thanks for the links Fawkes. But, what is the middle column for - the one with either the star or N?
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 1:20 pm (#227 of 491)
Back in business
Thank you very much Fawks Forever, if I wasn't that far away, I would kiss you on both cheeks !
So, they are 43 or 44 students in Harry's year (I'm not sure about the very first M), mean they can't be 10 students a house, 5 boys and 5 girls, pretty interesting. Hannah Abbott(H), Terry Boot (R) and Kevin Entwhistle (R) are muggle born wizards (the N within a square). Lavander Brown (G), Stephen Cornfoot (R), Vincent Crabbe ! (S), Gregory Goyle ! (S), Daphne Greengrass (S) and Morag (Isabel ?) MacDougal (R) are Halfblood (the star within a circle). I can't believe it ! Crabbe and Goyle are half blood ! No wonder Malfoy treat them like dogs ^_^ .
Edit : Of course, that's canon, but not 100% reliable since we know that Michael Corner and Anthony Goldstein are in Ravenclaw in OoP, while they are in Hufflepuff on the list, but Crabbe and Goyle Halfblood !
Thank you again, Forever Fawkes, you make my week ^_^ .
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 4, 2003 1:24 pm (#228 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
A part of me just wonders if Zabini's gender wasn't left off of the photo purposely. Just a thought.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 2:35 pm (#229 of 491)
Back in business
Could be Zabini's gender or anything about gender, blood, or House of any of the 20 students of that page. Even their names could be the thing that-must-not-be-see.
I took a closer look to first screen shot, and the first name of the second page is Mac... , followed by two Mal... and then Moon. So there's 44 students in Harry's year. We know for canon there's 8 G, 9 S, 10 R and 7 H. Ten students have unknown house, maybe some of them are other Slytherin boys.
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Ladybug220 - Dec 4, 2003 3:51 pm (#230 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Tomoe - how do you know what the middle column means? I am not doubting you but did Rowling say that in the interview?
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Madame Librarian - Dec 4, 2003 4:47 pm (#231 of 491)
OK, we've seemed to have hit a dead end as far as researching the surname Zabini. To leave no stone unturned, I checked the Chicago phone book. Alas, there is no Zabini listed. How about checking the phone directory in various cities and countries? If anyone finds one, do you think you'd have the nerve to call them and ask about the derivation of their last name? Now that's what I'd call intensive research! (If the poor folks you call don't take it well, you could end up getting carted off to a place like St. Mungo's.)
I don't really think I'm serious here, but do look up the name in your local phone books maybe.
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 6:30 pm (#232 of 491)
Back in business
You are right Ladybug220, their no canon of the central column meaning, but it just fit with the wizard/muggle born column of my own list. And beside of name, sex and house the only thing I found worth to mention is who was mention in the sorting hat ceremony, who was prefect and who was DA member.
But maybe I draw conclusions a little bit too fast, let's think :
Squared R Encircled Stars Stars
Abbott, Hannah
Boot, Terry
Entwhistle, Kevin
Finch-Fletchley, Justin
Granger, Hermione Brown, Lavander
Cornfoot, Stephen
Crabbe, Vincent
Finnigan, Seamus
Goyle, Gregory
Greengrass, Daphne
MacDougal, Morag Bones, Suzan
Brockehurst, Mandy
Bulstrode, Millicent
Corner, Michael
Goldstein, Anthony
Hopkins, Wayne
Jones, Megan
Li, Su
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MTW - Dec 4, 2003 6:48 pm (#233 of 491)
Just to throw a wrench into the works here, but Seamus Finnigan the circle looks like it been an attempted at scratched it out. Making star one magical parent, and a star circled two parents.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 7:00 pm (#234 of 491)
Back in business
Thanks MTW, that would make more sense than Crabbe and Goyle as Halfblood.
Muggle born Halfblood Wizard born
Abbott, Hannah
Boot, Terry
Entwhistle, Kevin
Finch-Fletchley, Justin
Granger, Hermione Bones, Suzan
Brockehurst, Mandy
Bulstrode, Millicent
Corner, Michael
Goldstein, Anthony
Hopkins, Wayne
Jones, Megan
Li, Su Brown, Lavander
Cornfoot, Stephen
Crabbe, Vincent
Finnigan, Seamus
Goyle, Gregory
Greengrass, Daphne
MacDougal, Morag
Edit : By the way, I did a search on the Canada's 411 online, and it seems that there's no Zabini in the entire country, or the all hide their phone number. -_-
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MTW - Dec 4, 2003 7:13 pm (#235 of 491)
Tomoe
It just makes more logical two symbols for two parents.It show, at first, that Seamus was going to be full-blood but she changed her mind.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 7:24 pm (#236 of 491)
Back in business
Yeah, the Seamus sign has confused me (and lack of sleep too ^_^ ).
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Crystal - Dec 4, 2003 10:24 pm (#237 of 491)
if you go to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] or to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and go to there people search there are people that live in the United States with that last name...
There are only two in the U.S.A
One in Germany, and .....over 100...... in you guessed it Italy.
However there is no Italian word close to Zabini, or anything that I could find on Internet about that Last name. No family history or anything.
I am not sure Blaise is important. I thought too that he was just a way to end the sorting ceremony, but I think that someone brought up how there are always classes of 20 for Slytherin and Gryffindor. I mean by 20 broomsticks, and 20 cauldrons, and so on and so forth. So we are indeed missing a female, and a male from Slytherin. This means that if Blaise is a male then the mystery Slytherin has to be either Nott or Zabini. I am new to the forum so I m ay not be making much sense here, but I think you are on to something here.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 4, 2003 10:43 pm (#238 of 491)
Let it snow!
Tomoe: Wizard born: Brown, Lavander
I don't understand how Lavander can be Wizard born because, in PoA, she didn't understand what the Grim was when Trewlany mentioned it, while everyone else, except the one person we know isn't wizard born (Dean), knew what it was...? Hermione possibly knew, but then she may have read about it in a book. However, I don't think she'd heard about it before then because she thought it sounded ludicrous.
"My dear," Professor Trewlany's huge eyes opened dramatically, "you have the Grim."
"The what?" said Harry.
He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror. (PoA6)
More on-topic: How does everyone see this "Mystery Slytherin" possibly going about helping or hindering the uniting of the houses?
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Tomoé - Dec 5, 2003 1:00 am (#239 of 491)
Back in business
You're right Sarah, we should continue this conversation on the Minor Characters, including Students thread, because there's a lot of thing to say about it.
Back to the topic, CrystalGazer, I couldn't find anything about the meaning of Zabini on internet either. On the Translations thread, Hermione G, an Italian member, said that she doesn't know what it means either and that the name doesn't sound Italian to her. Maybe JKR just chose the name because it sound great, Blaise Zabini, I myself like it a lot. ^_^
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Crystal - Dec 5, 2003 11:14 am (#240 of 491)
Edited by Dec 5, 2003 10:29 am
Here Goes
Female
Daphne Greengrass Tracey Davis Pansy Parkinson Millicent Bullstrode ?
Male Draco Malfoy Vincent Crabbe Gregory Goyle Theodore Nott ?
Female Hermione Granger Lavender Brown Parvati Patil Unknown(possibility) Unknown(possibility)
Male Harry Potter Neville Longbottom Ronald Weasly Seamus Finnigan Dean Thomas
If there are 20 people in there class then we are most likely missing one female and one male from Slytherin. Blaise could still be either one.There are only 4 people unaccounted for (including Blaise) So if the classes are even meaning 10 boys and 10 girls and Blaise is indeed Male, then there are no unknown Males. There fore the Mystery Slytherin is indeed either Nott or Zabini.
Unless Zabini is a female, then there is an unnamed male Slytherin and all the female Slytherin have been accounted for.
if I am still confusing...there are 4 named males and 4 named females in Slytherin. There is only room for two more if there are only ten in the class.
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Tomoé - Dec 5, 2003 1:31 pm (#241 of 491)
Back in business
S.E. Jones said : How does everyone see this "Mystery Slytherin" possibly going about helping or hindering the uniting of the houses?
Before looking for what role he could play in the uniting of the houses, we can think about what is his role in his own house.
Slytherin, we know 7 students from the books, 2 girls (Patty and Millicent), 4 boys (Nott, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle) and Blaise. We also have two other girl named in the lexicon, and confirmed on the JRK notebook screen shots (Tracey and Daphne). That lead to the number of 9 students, 4 girls, 4 boys and Blaise. We also know that there was 20 brooms and 20 caldrons when both Slytherin and Griffindor are in class together. We know 8 Gryffindors and there's speculations about 2 other girls (even if I don't buy it, I can't believe JKR didn't introduced them in 5 books) so the Slytherins must be between 10 end 12 students.
In OoP, when the mystery Slyterin is presented, Rowling choose to write it "a stringy Slytherin boy" and not "the fourth boy from Slytherin, the stringy one", that make me believe they are at least 5 boys in the Slytherin house, maybe more. And if we look for the maximum number of boys, 12 Slythrin - 4 known girls = 8 possible boys (I just hope they are not that much o.O).
On the boy's side only, we know that three of them are almost always together, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. I have the impression that Malfoy is the leader of his whole house year, the way he enter quidditch team, the way he became the prefect and the way Pansy seem found of him, being herself the leader of her house year girls. The Malfoy's gang are DE sons, pureblood and they bully poeple from other houses, likely from there own house as well. When they are not in class or in the great Hall, we often see the three of them wandering alone.
For the rest of the boys, they could be 2 to 5 others and since that make a lot of difference, I will make separated theories.
If there's 2 others boys, Malfoy's gang groups the majority of the Slytherin boys. The two other boys would probably friend, like Seamus and Dean. Since Nott is also a DE son and since Malfoy's father seem to have a leading position among the DE, I bet Nott's Father tell him to not displease Draco too much. If the Mistery Slythrin is Nott, I'm 50/50 about the position that he take, he could rebel from the leading DE sons or he could stuck with them. If the MS is the other one, how will he react about all the other boys (his best friend too) being a DE son. I think he is likely to stuck to the group, not willing to wake up jinxed one morning. So, I don't think he will show some interest in uniting the houses unless anyone else take the initiative. Or maybe he will, but it will be under cover.
If there's 3 other boys, they are as many as Malfoy's gang. Maybe they are split in two gang (like Neville, Seamus and Dean), maybe they all stuck together or maybe the alliances change from time to time. If two of them chose to work for the union of the houses, they could do it, but outnumbered 1 to 2 they will do it under cover as well. If the three of them chose to do so, they will many enough to stand up to Malfoy's gang.
If they are 4 or 5 (as many as all the Gryffindor boys o.O), Malfoy's gang are the minority, but it's becoming too complex to analyze with the lack of information. At this point, that could go in any direction.
Personally, I don't think they are more than 3 other boys, two seem more likely, but since it's just a feeling, it doesn't worth to much. I also believe that Nott is not the MS, because JRK would have made a reference between the thestral scene and the newspaper one. And I do believe that that slytherin will play a important part in the two books to come.
Edit : CrystalGazer, you post as I was writing, and we almost write the same thing. So even if that was my longest post ever, I don't thing I added too much ^_^ .
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Crystal - Dec 5, 2003 3:02 pm (#242 of 491)
You are right anyway...it is hard to tell what will happen without knowing who is who. I don't see Nott going against Malfoy, but you never know.
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Joost! - Dec 5, 2003 5:20 pm (#243 of 491)
Second line of information
The more I think about it the more it becomes clear to me that Nott is nott the mystery Slytherin. In fact I think he's introduced later in the story to point out he's not. We already knew he existed from the Sorting in PS/SS and we knew there was a Death Eater with the same name. If Nott plays any part in the last two books, I believe JKR could have made the connection between Nott Jr. and Sr. then. Why reintroduce such a person at the end of book 5 with no further interaction?
Blaise could be the one, and if she's a boy he probably is, if not then Nott...
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 5, 2003 11:08 pm (#244 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, if anyone who actually has a telephone number of an actual Zabini wants to give it to me, I have unlimited long distance in the US and Canada. I am also 30 years old so you don't have to worry about me. Email me. I may be able to find something out. I was born in the US and was taken to Italy several times a year when I was young. I have a lot of family from there and may actually be related to them or something or my family may know of them. I will do some searching.
My email is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 2:13 am (#245 of 491)
Back in business
Eureka!!!
I found it! The origin of Zabini name!
I've have a sister who knows a bit of Latin, and when I submitted her the Zabini puzzle, she said that Zabini could be a declined form of Zabinus (Zabinus, Zabine, Zabinum, Zabini, Zabino, Zabino).
I search Zabinus on Google.com and ended with this :
Alexander Zabinus, an Egyptian, opposed Demetrius II claiming to be the legitimate heir of Antiochus VII--or Alexander Balas, according to some. He was supported by the current Ptolemaic ruler, Ptolemy VIII Physcon. It is unknown whether Cleopatra Thea had appealed to Physcon or not. Physcon had married his sister, Cleopatra II the widow of Ptolemy VI and the mother of Cleopatra Thea. Alienated from her husband because he had murdered their child, Cleopatra II called on Demetrius II, her son-in-law, to protect her. He marched on Egypt but got no farther than Pelusium in the Nile delta. Alexander Zabinus captured and killed Demetrius II in 126 BC at Tyre, but he was unsuccessful in his bid for the Seleucid thone.
So there was a Zabinus family in Ancient Roman Empire. Now, did ancient Latin names changed their endings in modern Italian ? I tried some old Latin family names and it seems that the -us became -ini :
Julius -> Julini
Marius -> Marini
Marcus -> Marcini
Cornelius -> Cornelini
Lidius -> Lidini
Claudius -> Claudini
Except for the names that ended in -nus (like Zabinus) that end now in -ni :
Linus -> Lini
Zabinus -> Zabini
So, what's the meaning of Zabinus? err... I don't know ^_^ . But I guess this name was from Greek origin because "Z" wasn't a latin letter. Ancient Greek, though, has a "Z" and ancient Greeks were ruling Egypt at the time Zabinus try to take over Demetrius II.
Now, where's my Greek dictionary...
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Madame Librarian - Dec 6, 2003 7:07 am (#246 of 491)
Tomoe, wow! Great work--take 25 points, my dear.
OK, there may be something to the Egypt thing since JKR mentions Egypt in a number of ways (trips to, wizards from, ancient magic source, etc.).
If I read your citation right, Zabinus opposed Demetrius II, and wanted the throne, but was not successful. He, Zabinus, was supported by the current ruler, Ptolemy VIII Physcon. Does anyone have any clue as to how this might tie in with a kid attending wizard school?
Are we overdoing this issue, and there's no big, deep meaning to "Zabini?" Is JKR chuckling every time she reads this thread (what is her screen name anyway)? Oh, bother! It's still loads of fun to fiddle around with this.
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 6, 2003 10:20 am (#247 of 491)
Edited by Dec 6, 2003 9:25 am
St. Blaise Bishop and martyr.
The ninth-century martyrologies of Europe in their lists, which are accompanied by historical notices, give on 15 February the name of St. Blasius, Bishop of Sebaste and martyr. The Greek synaxaria mention him under 11 February.
It can perhaps be assumed that St. Blasius was a bishop and that he suffered martyrdom at the beginning of the fourth century. All the particulars concerning his life and martyrdom which are found in the Acts are purely legendary and have no claim to historical worth. There are besides various recensions of the text of the Acts. According to the legend Blasius was a physician at Sebaste before he was raised to the episcopal see. At the time of the persecution under Licinius he was taken prisoner at the command of the governor, Agricolaus. The hunters of the governor found him in the wilderness in a cave to which he had retired and while in prison he performed a wonderful cure of a boy who had a fishbone in his throat and who was in danger of choking to death. After suffering various forms of torture St. Blasius was beheaded; the Acts relate also the martyrdom of seven women.
In many places on the day of his feast the blessing of St. Blasius is given: two candles are consecrated, generally by a prayer, these are then held in a crossed position by a priest over the heads of the faithful or the people are touched on the throat with them. In other places oil is consecrated in which the wick of a small candle is dipped and the throats of those present are touched with the wick. At the same time the following blessing is given: "Per intercessionem S. Blasii liberet te Deus a malo gutteris et a quovis alio malo" (May God at the intercession of St. Blasius preserve you from throat troubles and every other evil). In some dioceses is added: "in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus" and the priest makes the sign of the cross over the faithful. In the Latin Church his feast falls on 3 February, in the Oriental Churches on 11 February. He is represented holding two crossed candles in his hand (the Blessing of St. Blasius), or in a cave surrounded by wild beasts, as he was found by the hunters of the governor.
I found this about the first name....I don't know if it is important.
I can't see how JK Rowling remembers all this stuff, even if Blaise Zabini never comes back into the books again I think his name was picked out very carefully. Not just to end the sorting ceremony. She is amazing. I mean to link all this stuff together. By the Way I got this of a catholic web site. If anyone wanted to know. I just typed in St. Blaise on Yahoo search.
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Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 12:17 pm (#248 of 491)
Back in business
Barb said : "Tomoe, wow! Great work--take 25 points, my dear."
Wow, my first gained points, I'll share the honor with my sister, though. ^_^
Barb said : "Are we overdoing this issue"?
Of course not, that name was bugging me, sound like a Italian name and clearly have no Latin root (because of the "Z"). Even Hermione G, a Italian member of this forum, didn't recognize it as a Italian name, saying it likely comes from Eastern Europe (and she was right ^_^ ). Then the search in the international phone book show the highest concentration in Italy. I'm glad we finally found were that mysterious name came from Greek, likely as Zabinos then turn to Zabinus in latin and finally in Zabini in Italian. I like history and etymology ! ^_^
I put the quote to show that a historical character was named Zabinus, to prove that the Zabinus/Zabini theory held water. But you're right, Zabini could be the one who'll rule out Draco in the Slytherin house year, but Nott will take the control before he could do it. He then will be caught by the DE, tortured and killed, but befose that, he will cure Harry from a silencio spell. ^_^
Barb, do you have Greek dictionaries in your library ? Could you search for word beginning with zabin (I looked for the Greek letters, and zabin is writed ZABIN in capitals) ? I won't be able to go to the University for few days. Thanks.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 6, 2003 3:36 pm (#249 of 491)
OK, Tomoe, I'll check at work on Tues. (I don't work Monday). I better send myself at e-mail so I'll remember.
Ciao. Barb
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Joost! - Dec 6, 2003 3:53 pm (#250 of 491)
Second line of information
Luckily I have acces to an ancient Greek dictionary, but there's no such word or name. Maybe there's something in a modern Greek one.
Wow, I can't believe my two years of Greek lessons actually helped me later in life...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You think it's not Nott, Warty?
Well, I think it is Nott, and Zelmia thinks it is Nott. But if you think it's not Nott, then we have a knotty problem, as to whether it is Nott, or it's not Nott.
I think we should put it to the vote. Is it Nott or not? Yes, or not.
Vote after the buzzer.....
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Hem Hem - Nov 24, 2003 6:28 pm (#202 of 491)
To be or Nott to be....
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "We all know Nott," Warty Harris. At the point in the series when Hagrid introduces the thestrals, the reader has not yet been presented with as much as Nott's first name...and we know that Harry doesn't know his name yet at that point either, because Hermione points it out later on in the year.
I agree that Nott is a wonderful candidate for the Mystery Slytherin...we would never have to resolve whether Zabini is a boy or a girl. Additionally, with Nott coming from a DE family, he raises much more intersting speculation in regards to the death he witnessed from his past, and how that death may have impacted his view of the DEs....
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 6:44 pm (#203 of 491)
According to the Lexicon Blaise is a male.
In the Chapter where they (HRH) are in the Library, Hermione points Nott out. Harry doesn't recognize him as the same boy who saw the Thestrals. This doesn't mean that Nott isn't the same boy, but why wouldn't Harry have remembered that it was the same boy?
Why was the scene involving the Thestrals written in the way that it was?
Hagrid doesn't ever say the name of the third boy. Why?
I don't think the name remains hidden in that chapter only to be rvealed in the Library scene.
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timrew - Nov 24, 2003 6:48 pm (#204 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
As far as I'm concerned, Blaise can go to Blaises......
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Warty Harris - Nov 24, 2003 7:02 pm (#205 of 491)
The only thing that may point to Nott being the Mystery Slytherin in the Care of Magical Creatures Class is the fact that he is standing behind Goyle. (behind Goyle is where Nott usually is)
Also, he seems to be important.
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Carina - Nov 24, 2003 7:16 pm (#206 of 491)
and her killer bunny rabbit
I keep asking myself: Who is the mystery Slytherin? Is it Blaise? I think Nott.
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Madame Librarian - Nov 24, 2003 8:59 pm (#207 of 491)
Honest, I do believe JKR purposely named the kid Nott just to yank our chains and get us going on the Forum thread. I have laughed a lot reading the last 10 or so posts (tim, did you ever imagine in your wildest dreams that you'd have such a vast assortment of international straight men setting you up for the punch?), and my only concern is when this character shows up on film for the first time, I may be inclined to shout out, "That's not Nott; it's Blaise for heaven's sake!"
Sorry, I know we are trying our darndest to stay on topic here.
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Nov 25, 2003 8:29 am (#208 of 491)
Let it snow!
In the Chapter where they (HRH) are in the Library, Hermione points Nott out. Harry doesn't recognize him as the same boy who saw the Thestrals. This doesn't mean that Nott isn't the same boy, but why wouldn't Harry have remembered that it was the same boy?
Well, it doesn't say that Harry doesn't physically recognize the guy, just that he didn't know his name, so he may have recognized him as the one who was afraid of the threstrals. As to why he didn't specifically point that out to us, he doesn't say he doens't physically recognize the boy behind Goyle so he may have recognized his face from somewhere aside from the Care of Magical Creatures Class. Know what I mean?
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Kathryn Pottinger - Nov 27, 2003 5:06 am (#209 of 491)
I know what you mean. Presumably, Harry will have seen everyone in his year at some point but you wouldn't expect him to mention where he had last seen everyone he bumps into. I think Nott is the ComC Slytherin and that it could quite possible become important. AlbusRiddle said:
"She may have just added another random kid because the idea of only two kids in a large class having seen death is unlikely"
But I think the opposite. How many 15 year olds have have seen someone actually die? I would think not that many. And, (depending on your opinion on the whole numbers debate) there were probably only 20 kids in that class, which means 15% of them have witnessed death. I find that quite high. In fact, I would find just 10% of a random group of schoolkids (ie Harry and Neville only) to have witnessed someone die quite high and consequently that for JK Rowling to have included an extra person who has seen death, that fact must be somehow relevant or important.
(Incidently, I knew someone called Blaize when I was at school and it was a .............girl! Although I think that particular debate can only be solved by JK Rowling herself)
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H4RR7P0773R - Nov 28, 2003 2:27 am (#210 of 491)
im really a weasley 67% obbsession with hp
SORRY FOR GOING OFF TOPIC FORGIVE ME I posted on the 19th november On the discussion of whether the slytherin Blaize is male or female, I dont know whether you get the english comedy programme RED DWARF in the states but in an episode titled TIMESLIDES the comidianne Ruby Wax appeares as a news reporter named Blaize. I will try and find a clip of this and send it to steve thank you dp Just something elce I noticed whilst watching this episode again The photos move because Kryten developes them in a contaminated fluid so maybe JKR is a red dwarf fan and got the name and the idea of the pictures from here any ideas ???????????
P.S may I be the first to wish you all a merry christmas and a happy hogmanay{new year}
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Tomoé - Nov 28, 2003 8:13 am (#211 of 491)
Back in business
Is Blaise Zabini a boy or a girl ? We have evidences for both so far, JKR is the only one who can give the final answer, I'm afraid -_- . However, I don't think JKR is a red dwarf ^_^ .
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 9:42 am (#212 of 491)
according to the lexicon....Blaise is a male. While interpreting the book to other languages, the publishers needed to know if the characters were male or female. I don't think that this means for 100%, but I think Blaise is a male.
Also...in an interview JKR had a list of characters that she took down as notes and Blaise was listed under boys. I have heard that anyway (BBC around Christmas) but that is all just rumour.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 28, 2003 10:18 am (#213 of 491)
While interpreting the book to other languages, the publishers needed to know if the characters were male or female
Well, in the German books Blaise is female.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 10:39 am (#214 of 491)
the German language is not one that has male and female verbage .(this means verbs are not masculine and feminine like Spanish and Italian) but I have never read the German version. what does it say?
I did a search and in this interview JKR has Blaise listed as a male.
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Denise P. - Nov 28, 2003 10:40 am (#215 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Which interview was that, Warty?
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 10:47 am (#216 of 491)
Christmas BBC...She shows a list of Students as part of notes she has taken. The last on the list of boys is Blaise Zabini.
I will try to find it again.....
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 28, 2003 11:45 am (#217 of 491)
but I have never read the German version. what does it say?
It says "Blaise Zabini wurde eine Slytherin", if it were a boy, it would have said "Blaise Zabini wurde ein Slytherin". But I just remembered (well, after looking for the scene), that in the same scene Lavender Brown is male. Therefore the German translator probably knew as much about the students genders, as we do.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 12:40 pm (#218 of 491)
I cannot find a complete picture of the notebook pages.
Davis, Greengrass, Bullstrode, and Parkinson are Girls
Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott are boys
I remember Blaise being a boy, but now I cannot get confirmation
I have a 2 different people who say totally different things. One said that the list confirms that Blaise is a boy. The other person "thought" it said Blaise was a girl. This Slytherin still remains a mystery. I think Moon is a girl by the way, and so of course is Sally Ann Perks. Both have no house..that we know of yet.
on a side note
Are all those children yours NoVeil4Me ?
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Denise P. - Nov 28, 2003 2:27 pm (#219 of 491)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yes, all 6 of them belong to me. My two oldest no longer live at home so they are not pictured.
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Warty Harris - Nov 28, 2003 2:52 pm (#220 of 491)
So you have 8 children all together? Wow...that would be overwhelming for me.
I know that in the UK version of this interview you can see more of the notebook. There are no pictures on the internet. I do remember thinking Moon was a girl, and Zabini was a boy. That leaves 5 girls and 1 boy left unaccounted for. I am going on the assumption that Z. Smith is Zacharias Smith in Hufflepuff(The lexicon can't confirm the years he was there)
Perks and Moon are Girls and lets assume in Gryffindor(I have no reason for this) Blaise is a boy and in Slytherin.
That Leaves one Slytherin girl unnamed, one Hufflepuff boy, and two Hufflepuff girls unnamed.
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Warty Harris - Dec 2, 2003 6:22 pm (#221 of 491)
As mentioned in another thread I won't be checking in as often.
However, before I go I looked up Blaise Zabini on a search engine, and it seems others have questioned his gender before
I think that this is something that will remain a disagreement in fanfic,(of which I am not into) but I wonder if anyone else has info on Blaise Zabini, or whom the mystery Slytherin may be. If there are 10 people in Gryffindor and 10 people in Slytherin, then we are missing 3 girls and 1 boy. The mystery Slytherin may not be such a mystery.
It may be Nott, or it could be an unnamed boy, Blaise may be a girl...I simply do not know.
My prediction is that the mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini(who is male), and this mystery Slytherin may play more of a role in book #6 or #7...whether it be Nott or Zabini.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 8:14 pm (#222 of 491)
Back in business
I took a look at the university library, and I didn't found Zabini, even in native Italian dictionaries in 5 or 7 volumes . The closest entry that I found is Sabini, the Sabine poeple, back in the legend of the foundation of Rome.
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Fawkes Forever - Dec 4, 2003 8:22 am (#223 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Edited by Denise P. Dec 4, 2003 8:24 am
Well, it took me most of today & by abandoning my ever increasing work load, I finally found the screen shots of JK's notebook (see how dedicated I am ) I just knew I had seen them somewhere.
So here they are, for all to peruse... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Unfortunately they don't throw any light on Blaises' gender.... if you look at the 3rd school list picture, you can just about make out the name Zabini (last i is cut off) in the bottom right hand corner.... but nothing more. There is a key on the list, it appears that girls are indentified by circles, whilst boys are identified by black squares, if only we could move the photo over just a fraction. Oh well, not time completely wasted, the other pics are fun to look at too
Upon my travels through Cyber Space, I came upon this fans website... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a lot of work has gone into this & makes for interesting reading, of course it’s not Canon, & the author has no idea if Blaise is a boy or a girl, but it’s worth having a look at all the same....
Phew..... I think I need a nice, (dare I say well deserved) cup of coffee. However seeing as I'm at work I think I'll make do with just a cup of coffee (note I dropped the 'nice' prefix )
So indeed the answer lies in that book *accio notebook*
The mystery continues.....
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Peregrine - Dec 4, 2003 8:45 am (#224 of 491)
Oh, it was so close. Surely the camera panned across the full name and circle/square so maybe there’s still a chance at getting a look at the whole thing.
Well done, Fawkes Forever! I’d say you deserve cookie (or biscuit depending where you are) along with your coffee.
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Fawkes Forever - Dec 4, 2003 9:03 am (#225 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
We will just have to wait for a re-run of the show..... why didn't I tape it.... actually, maybe I did..... but if I did, the video tape is at my parents house... so I'll have a look for it over the Christmas holidays.....
Cookie / Biscuit.... I'll eat both Just treated myself to a packet of mint munchies (small chocolate sweets [candy] with a minty centre)... hmmm lovely, doesn't disguise the taste of the yukky work coffee though
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Ladybug220 - Dec 4, 2003 11:33 am (#226 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Thanks for the links Fawkes. But, what is the middle column for - the one with either the star or N?
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 1:20 pm (#227 of 491)
Back in business
Thank you very much Fawks Forever, if I wasn't that far away, I would kiss you on both cheeks !
So, they are 43 or 44 students in Harry's year (I'm not sure about the very first M), mean they can't be 10 students a house, 5 boys and 5 girls, pretty interesting. Hannah Abbott(H), Terry Boot (R) and Kevin Entwhistle (R) are muggle born wizards (the N within a square). Lavander Brown (G), Stephen Cornfoot (R), Vincent Crabbe ! (S), Gregory Goyle ! (S), Daphne Greengrass (S) and Morag (Isabel ?) MacDougal (R) are Halfblood (the star within a circle). I can't believe it ! Crabbe and Goyle are half blood ! No wonder Malfoy treat them like dogs ^_^ .
Edit : Of course, that's canon, but not 100% reliable since we know that Michael Corner and Anthony Goldstein are in Ravenclaw in OoP, while they are in Hufflepuff on the list, but Crabbe and Goyle Halfblood !
Thank you again, Forever Fawkes, you make my week ^_^ .
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 4, 2003 1:24 pm (#228 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
A part of me just wonders if Zabini's gender wasn't left off of the photo purposely. Just a thought.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 2:35 pm (#229 of 491)
Back in business
Could be Zabini's gender or anything about gender, blood, or House of any of the 20 students of that page. Even their names could be the thing that-must-not-be-see.
I took a closer look to first screen shot, and the first name of the second page is Mac... , followed by two Mal... and then Moon. So there's 44 students in Harry's year. We know for canon there's 8 G, 9 S, 10 R and 7 H. Ten students have unknown house, maybe some of them are other Slytherin boys.
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Ladybug220 - Dec 4, 2003 3:51 pm (#230 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Tomoe - how do you know what the middle column means? I am not doubting you but did Rowling say that in the interview?
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Madame Librarian - Dec 4, 2003 4:47 pm (#231 of 491)
OK, we've seemed to have hit a dead end as far as researching the surname Zabini. To leave no stone unturned, I checked the Chicago phone book. Alas, there is no Zabini listed. How about checking the phone directory in various cities and countries? If anyone finds one, do you think you'd have the nerve to call them and ask about the derivation of their last name? Now that's what I'd call intensive research! (If the poor folks you call don't take it well, you could end up getting carted off to a place like St. Mungo's.)
I don't really think I'm serious here, but do look up the name in your local phone books maybe.
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 6:30 pm (#232 of 491)
Back in business
You are right Ladybug220, their no canon of the central column meaning, but it just fit with the wizard/muggle born column of my own list. And beside of name, sex and house the only thing I found worth to mention is who was mention in the sorting hat ceremony, who was prefect and who was DA member.
But maybe I draw conclusions a little bit too fast, let's think :
Squared R Encircled Stars Stars
Abbott, Hannah
Boot, Terry
Entwhistle, Kevin
Finch-Fletchley, Justin
Granger, Hermione Brown, Lavander
Cornfoot, Stephen
Crabbe, Vincent
Finnigan, Seamus
Goyle, Gregory
Greengrass, Daphne
MacDougal, Morag Bones, Suzan
Brockehurst, Mandy
Bulstrode, Millicent
Corner, Michael
Goldstein, Anthony
Hopkins, Wayne
Jones, Megan
Li, Su
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MTW - Dec 4, 2003 6:48 pm (#233 of 491)
Just to throw a wrench into the works here, but Seamus Finnigan the circle looks like it been an attempted at scratched it out. Making star one magical parent, and a star circled two parents.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 7:00 pm (#234 of 491)
Back in business
Thanks MTW, that would make more sense than Crabbe and Goyle as Halfblood.
Muggle born Halfblood Wizard born
Abbott, Hannah
Boot, Terry
Entwhistle, Kevin
Finch-Fletchley, Justin
Granger, Hermione Bones, Suzan
Brockehurst, Mandy
Bulstrode, Millicent
Corner, Michael
Goldstein, Anthony
Hopkins, Wayne
Jones, Megan
Li, Su Brown, Lavander
Cornfoot, Stephen
Crabbe, Vincent
Finnigan, Seamus
Goyle, Gregory
Greengrass, Daphne
MacDougal, Morag
Edit : By the way, I did a search on the Canada's 411 online, and it seems that there's no Zabini in the entire country, or the all hide their phone number. -_-
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MTW - Dec 4, 2003 7:13 pm (#235 of 491)
Tomoe
It just makes more logical two symbols for two parents.It show, at first, that Seamus was going to be full-blood but she changed her mind.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 7:24 pm (#236 of 491)
Back in business
Yeah, the Seamus sign has confused me (and lack of sleep too ^_^ ).
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Crystal - Dec 4, 2003 10:24 pm (#237 of 491)
if you go to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] or to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and go to there people search there are people that live in the United States with that last name...
There are only two in the U.S.A
One in Germany, and .....over 100...... in you guessed it Italy.
However there is no Italian word close to Zabini, or anything that I could find on Internet about that Last name. No family history or anything.
I am not sure Blaise is important. I thought too that he was just a way to end the sorting ceremony, but I think that someone brought up how there are always classes of 20 for Slytherin and Gryffindor. I mean by 20 broomsticks, and 20 cauldrons, and so on and so forth. So we are indeed missing a female, and a male from Slytherin. This means that if Blaise is a male then the mystery Slytherin has to be either Nott or Zabini. I am new to the forum so I m ay not be making much sense here, but I think you are on to something here.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 4, 2003 10:43 pm (#238 of 491)
Let it snow!
Tomoe: Wizard born: Brown, Lavander
I don't understand how Lavander can be Wizard born because, in PoA, she didn't understand what the Grim was when Trewlany mentioned it, while everyone else, except the one person we know isn't wizard born (Dean), knew what it was...? Hermione possibly knew, but then she may have read about it in a book. However, I don't think she'd heard about it before then because she thought it sounded ludicrous.
"My dear," Professor Trewlany's huge eyes opened dramatically, "you have the Grim."
"The what?" said Harry.
He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror. (PoA6)
More on-topic: How does everyone see this "Mystery Slytherin" possibly going about helping or hindering the uniting of the houses?
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Tomoé - Dec 5, 2003 1:00 am (#239 of 491)
Back in business
You're right Sarah, we should continue this conversation on the Minor Characters, including Students thread, because there's a lot of thing to say about it.
Back to the topic, CrystalGazer, I couldn't find anything about the meaning of Zabini on internet either. On the Translations thread, Hermione G, an Italian member, said that she doesn't know what it means either and that the name doesn't sound Italian to her. Maybe JKR just chose the name because it sound great, Blaise Zabini, I myself like it a lot. ^_^
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Crystal - Dec 5, 2003 11:14 am (#240 of 491)
Edited by Dec 5, 2003 10:29 am
Here Goes
Female
Daphne Greengrass Tracey Davis Pansy Parkinson Millicent Bullstrode ?
Male Draco Malfoy Vincent Crabbe Gregory Goyle Theodore Nott ?
Female Hermione Granger Lavender Brown Parvati Patil Unknown(possibility) Unknown(possibility)
Male Harry Potter Neville Longbottom Ronald Weasly Seamus Finnigan Dean Thomas
If there are 20 people in there class then we are most likely missing one female and one male from Slytherin. Blaise could still be either one.There are only 4 people unaccounted for (including Blaise) So if the classes are even meaning 10 boys and 10 girls and Blaise is indeed Male, then there are no unknown Males. There fore the Mystery Slytherin is indeed either Nott or Zabini.
Unless Zabini is a female, then there is an unnamed male Slytherin and all the female Slytherin have been accounted for.
if I am still confusing...there are 4 named males and 4 named females in Slytherin. There is only room for two more if there are only ten in the class.
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Tomoé - Dec 5, 2003 1:31 pm (#241 of 491)
Back in business
S.E. Jones said : How does everyone see this "Mystery Slytherin" possibly going about helping or hindering the uniting of the houses?
Before looking for what role he could play in the uniting of the houses, we can think about what is his role in his own house.
Slytherin, we know 7 students from the books, 2 girls (Patty and Millicent), 4 boys (Nott, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle) and Blaise. We also have two other girl named in the lexicon, and confirmed on the JRK notebook screen shots (Tracey and Daphne). That lead to the number of 9 students, 4 girls, 4 boys and Blaise. We also know that there was 20 brooms and 20 caldrons when both Slytherin and Griffindor are in class together. We know 8 Gryffindors and there's speculations about 2 other girls (even if I don't buy it, I can't believe JKR didn't introduced them in 5 books) so the Slytherins must be between 10 end 12 students.
In OoP, when the mystery Slyterin is presented, Rowling choose to write it "a stringy Slytherin boy" and not "the fourth boy from Slytherin, the stringy one", that make me believe they are at least 5 boys in the Slytherin house, maybe more. And if we look for the maximum number of boys, 12 Slythrin - 4 known girls = 8 possible boys (I just hope they are not that much o.O).
On the boy's side only, we know that three of them are almost always together, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. I have the impression that Malfoy is the leader of his whole house year, the way he enter quidditch team, the way he became the prefect and the way Pansy seem found of him, being herself the leader of her house year girls. The Malfoy's gang are DE sons, pureblood and they bully poeple from other houses, likely from there own house as well. When they are not in class or in the great Hall, we often see the three of them wandering alone.
For the rest of the boys, they could be 2 to 5 others and since that make a lot of difference, I will make separated theories.
If there's 2 others boys, Malfoy's gang groups the majority of the Slytherin boys. The two other boys would probably friend, like Seamus and Dean. Since Nott is also a DE son and since Malfoy's father seem to have a leading position among the DE, I bet Nott's Father tell him to not displease Draco too much. If the Mistery Slythrin is Nott, I'm 50/50 about the position that he take, he could rebel from the leading DE sons or he could stuck with them. If the MS is the other one, how will he react about all the other boys (his best friend too) being a DE son. I think he is likely to stuck to the group, not willing to wake up jinxed one morning. So, I don't think he will show some interest in uniting the houses unless anyone else take the initiative. Or maybe he will, but it will be under cover.
If there's 3 other boys, they are as many as Malfoy's gang. Maybe they are split in two gang (like Neville, Seamus and Dean), maybe they all stuck together or maybe the alliances change from time to time. If two of them chose to work for the union of the houses, they could do it, but outnumbered 1 to 2 they will do it under cover as well. If the three of them chose to do so, they will many enough to stand up to Malfoy's gang.
If they are 4 or 5 (as many as all the Gryffindor boys o.O), Malfoy's gang are the minority, but it's becoming too complex to analyze with the lack of information. At this point, that could go in any direction.
Personally, I don't think they are more than 3 other boys, two seem more likely, but since it's just a feeling, it doesn't worth to much. I also believe that Nott is not the MS, because JRK would have made a reference between the thestral scene and the newspaper one. And I do believe that that slytherin will play a important part in the two books to come.
Edit : CrystalGazer, you post as I was writing, and we almost write the same thing. So even if that was my longest post ever, I don't thing I added too much ^_^ .
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Crystal - Dec 5, 2003 3:02 pm (#242 of 491)
You are right anyway...it is hard to tell what will happen without knowing who is who. I don't see Nott going against Malfoy, but you never know.
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Joost! - Dec 5, 2003 5:20 pm (#243 of 491)
Second line of information
The more I think about it the more it becomes clear to me that Nott is nott the mystery Slytherin. In fact I think he's introduced later in the story to point out he's not. We already knew he existed from the Sorting in PS/SS and we knew there was a Death Eater with the same name. If Nott plays any part in the last two books, I believe JKR could have made the connection between Nott Jr. and Sr. then. Why reintroduce such a person at the end of book 5 with no further interaction?
Blaise could be the one, and if she's a boy he probably is, if not then Nott...
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 5, 2003 11:08 pm (#244 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, if anyone who actually has a telephone number of an actual Zabini wants to give it to me, I have unlimited long distance in the US and Canada. I am also 30 years old so you don't have to worry about me. Email me. I may be able to find something out. I was born in the US and was taken to Italy several times a year when I was young. I have a lot of family from there and may actually be related to them or something or my family may know of them. I will do some searching.
My email is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 2:13 am (#245 of 491)
Back in business
Eureka!!!
I found it! The origin of Zabini name!
I've have a sister who knows a bit of Latin, and when I submitted her the Zabini puzzle, she said that Zabini could be a declined form of Zabinus (Zabinus, Zabine, Zabinum, Zabini, Zabino, Zabino).
I search Zabinus on Google.com and ended with this :
Alexander Zabinus, an Egyptian, opposed Demetrius II claiming to be the legitimate heir of Antiochus VII--or Alexander Balas, according to some. He was supported by the current Ptolemaic ruler, Ptolemy VIII Physcon. It is unknown whether Cleopatra Thea had appealed to Physcon or not. Physcon had married his sister, Cleopatra II the widow of Ptolemy VI and the mother of Cleopatra Thea. Alienated from her husband because he had murdered their child, Cleopatra II called on Demetrius II, her son-in-law, to protect her. He marched on Egypt but got no farther than Pelusium in the Nile delta. Alexander Zabinus captured and killed Demetrius II in 126 BC at Tyre, but he was unsuccessful in his bid for the Seleucid thone.
So there was a Zabinus family in Ancient Roman Empire. Now, did ancient Latin names changed their endings in modern Italian ? I tried some old Latin family names and it seems that the -us became -ini :
Julius -> Julini
Marius -> Marini
Marcus -> Marcini
Cornelius -> Cornelini
Lidius -> Lidini
Claudius -> Claudini
Except for the names that ended in -nus (like Zabinus) that end now in -ni :
Linus -> Lini
Zabinus -> Zabini
So, what's the meaning of Zabinus? err... I don't know ^_^ . But I guess this name was from Greek origin because "Z" wasn't a latin letter. Ancient Greek, though, has a "Z" and ancient Greeks were ruling Egypt at the time Zabinus try to take over Demetrius II.
Now, where's my Greek dictionary...
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Madame Librarian - Dec 6, 2003 7:07 am (#246 of 491)
Tomoe, wow! Great work--take 25 points, my dear.
OK, there may be something to the Egypt thing since JKR mentions Egypt in a number of ways (trips to, wizards from, ancient magic source, etc.).
If I read your citation right, Zabinus opposed Demetrius II, and wanted the throne, but was not successful. He, Zabinus, was supported by the current ruler, Ptolemy VIII Physcon. Does anyone have any clue as to how this might tie in with a kid attending wizard school?
Are we overdoing this issue, and there's no big, deep meaning to "Zabini?" Is JKR chuckling every time she reads this thread (what is her screen name anyway)? Oh, bother! It's still loads of fun to fiddle around with this.
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 6, 2003 10:20 am (#247 of 491)
Edited by Dec 6, 2003 9:25 am
St. Blaise Bishop and martyr.
The ninth-century martyrologies of Europe in their lists, which are accompanied by historical notices, give on 15 February the name of St. Blasius, Bishop of Sebaste and martyr. The Greek synaxaria mention him under 11 February.
It can perhaps be assumed that St. Blasius was a bishop and that he suffered martyrdom at the beginning of the fourth century. All the particulars concerning his life and martyrdom which are found in the Acts are purely legendary and have no claim to historical worth. There are besides various recensions of the text of the Acts. According to the legend Blasius was a physician at Sebaste before he was raised to the episcopal see. At the time of the persecution under Licinius he was taken prisoner at the command of the governor, Agricolaus. The hunters of the governor found him in the wilderness in a cave to which he had retired and while in prison he performed a wonderful cure of a boy who had a fishbone in his throat and who was in danger of choking to death. After suffering various forms of torture St. Blasius was beheaded; the Acts relate also the martyrdom of seven women.
In many places on the day of his feast the blessing of St. Blasius is given: two candles are consecrated, generally by a prayer, these are then held in a crossed position by a priest over the heads of the faithful or the people are touched on the throat with them. In other places oil is consecrated in which the wick of a small candle is dipped and the throats of those present are touched with the wick. At the same time the following blessing is given: "Per intercessionem S. Blasii liberet te Deus a malo gutteris et a quovis alio malo" (May God at the intercession of St. Blasius preserve you from throat troubles and every other evil). In some dioceses is added: "in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus" and the priest makes the sign of the cross over the faithful. In the Latin Church his feast falls on 3 February, in the Oriental Churches on 11 February. He is represented holding two crossed candles in his hand (the Blessing of St. Blasius), or in a cave surrounded by wild beasts, as he was found by the hunters of the governor.
I found this about the first name....I don't know if it is important.
I can't see how JK Rowling remembers all this stuff, even if Blaise Zabini never comes back into the books again I think his name was picked out very carefully. Not just to end the sorting ceremony. She is amazing. I mean to link all this stuff together. By the Way I got this of a catholic web site. If anyone wanted to know. I just typed in St. Blaise on Yahoo search.
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Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 12:17 pm (#248 of 491)
Back in business
Barb said : "Tomoe, wow! Great work--take 25 points, my dear."
Wow, my first gained points, I'll share the honor with my sister, though. ^_^
Barb said : "Are we overdoing this issue"?
Of course not, that name was bugging me, sound like a Italian name and clearly have no Latin root (because of the "Z"). Even Hermione G, a Italian member of this forum, didn't recognize it as a Italian name, saying it likely comes from Eastern Europe (and she was right ^_^ ). Then the search in the international phone book show the highest concentration in Italy. I'm glad we finally found were that mysterious name came from Greek, likely as Zabinos then turn to Zabinus in latin and finally in Zabini in Italian. I like history and etymology ! ^_^
I put the quote to show that a historical character was named Zabinus, to prove that the Zabinus/Zabini theory held water. But you're right, Zabini could be the one who'll rule out Draco in the Slytherin house year, but Nott will take the control before he could do it. He then will be caught by the DE, tortured and killed, but befose that, he will cure Harry from a silencio spell. ^_^
Barb, do you have Greek dictionaries in your library ? Could you search for word beginning with zabin (I looked for the Greek letters, and zabin is writed ZABIN in capitals) ? I won't be able to go to the University for few days. Thanks.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 6, 2003 3:36 pm (#249 of 491)
OK, Tomoe, I'll check at work on Tues. (I don't work Monday). I better send myself at e-mail so I'll remember.
Ciao. Barb
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Joost! - Dec 6, 2003 3:53 pm (#250 of 491)
Second line of information
Luckily I have acces to an ancient Greek dictionary, but there's no such word or name. Maybe there's something in a modern Greek one.
Wow, I can't believe my two years of Greek lessons actually helped me later in life...
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 251 to 300)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:26 am
Tomoé - Dec 6, 2003 9:21 pm (#251 of 491)
Back in business
Thanks Joost!, so there's no word begining by "zabin" in ancient Greek, but that's not the first time we seem to be in a dead end ^_^ . Maybe they made up the name by contracting two smaller ones. I'll look myself this week, but feel free to continue search on your own, the more we are to work on that problem, the more we have chance to succes.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 6, 2003 11:22 pm (#252 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I did a ton of research and I believe I have come up with a total and complete reasoning as to where JKR came up with the surname Zabini.
Sabini is an Italian surname. It hails from the town of Montegroppo in Italy. When this last name is spoken by a true Italian, what is heard is Zabini, not Sabini.
I believe that this is where this name truly comes from. Especially since there have been several of us who have researched the name and have only found few people who actually spell it with the Z.
I did find one burial plot out west in Los Angeles CA of an Emile Zabini born Nov. 28 1884 died June 10 1964. I find this also to be rare.
These spellings can also be attributed to the same factor because when my grandparents came over to America their last name was changed because they didn't speak English and the Americans spelled it how it sounded to them. This happened all the time years ago. It happened in several countries too so that would explain why they would be widespread.
Hope this helps and puts an end to this part of the mystery.
Huggs
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Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 6:56 am (#253 of 491)
AG, thanks, but did you get any sense of what it may mean?
Ciao. Barb
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timrew - Dec 7, 2003 7:06 am (#254 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Barb, it translates (from the ancient Italian) as, "The Good Slytherin".
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 9:13 am (#255 of 491) [/b]
Darn, I was hoping it was some new kind of pasta I haven't tried yet.
Ciao. Barb
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 7, 2003 10:31 am (#256 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Hey, I did find out it is a brand of wine Barb...lol
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 7, 2003 10:45 am (#257 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I know this doesn't help, but I looked it up... so here goes straight from the book.....
SAVINI, SAVINO, SAVINIO, SAVINA, SABINI, SABINO, SAVINELLI
From the first name Savino or Sabino, derived from the name of a pre-roman population: the Sabines
The name hails from a pre-roman population. There is no hidden meaning.... This is getting me in deeper and deeper instead of getting us out. I was really trying to help.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 3:17 pm (#258 of 491)
AG, thanks. Sometimes we Forum Folk have to just accept the fact that research must be enjoyed for its own sake; no huge revelations result. Hey, it's good practice.
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 7, 2003 10:46 pm (#259 of 491)
To A.G. and madame Librarian,
This is just a discussion. If you don't see any point in or any hidden meaning that is fine to say. I do happen to see the point that there is something more to this discussion. No one is the authority here. Blaise Zabinis name is probably pointless talk, but it is still interesting....and I happen to think that the Sabine people have nothing to do with it, and the name Zabinus is more likely where the name came from. Even if it has no more part in the H.P. Series.
Not to be rude, but I think your research was pointless A.G.
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Tomoé - Dec 8, 2003 3:06 am (#260 of 491)
Back in business
About Zabini's origine, I think that both theories can be true, but there's no way we could find out without asking to the "Italian Genealogic Society", if such a groupe do exist. And for the meaning of the name, I don't think it will have any incidence on the story, we are really too far deep this time. Nevertheless, I do enjoy this research a lot ^_^ .
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Joost! - Dec 8, 2003 3:47 am (#261 of 491)
Second line of information
Just to post some useless knowledge:
Right after Rome was founded (by Romulus and Remus), there were a lot of young men in the city looking for a better future. Unfortunately they were seen as a bunch of hoodlums so no father in the area would let his daughter live there. And with no women, the city would only last one generation. The Roman men kidnapped a lot Sabine virgins to ensure the survival of Rome.
I don’t think this applies to Blaise, but who knows, maybe she’ll get kidnapped by Lupin
Edit: Found this website, which basically argees with what I said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Madame Librarian - Dec 8, 2003 5:57 am (#262 of 491)
CrystalGazer, forgive me for being dense here, but your final sentence seems to contradict your original statement. First you say that you do see a point to continued discussion, then you tell AG that the research was pointless. Since I was the one to sort of get the "Zabini" part going in the first place, I certainly think it's interesting even though at this time, I don't think we've hit on anything that can be directly tied to the character in HP.
I'm always in favor of research (to a degree--I don't believe in being extreme to the point of filling Forum space with repeated opionions and dead-end agree/disagree situations) which, I believe, increases general knowledge, gets others thinking on a track they may not have noticed before, and is sometimes loads of fun (what a concept!).
If you read my comment carefully, I think you'll realize that I don't regret at all our attempts to clear things up. I just meant that for now, we seem to have used up most available resources without any satisfactory results. Let the discussion continue for sure!
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 8, 2003 9:52 am (#263 of 491)
Edited by Dec 8, 2003 8:52 am
I didn't mean to be mean...
No research here is useless or pointless. All I was saying is that the name Sabine doesn't prove anything as I looked up the last name Zabini in the Italian Directory and there are several hundred. I don't think that the names are related.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 8, 2003 12:55 pm (#264 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
CrystalGazer,
Obviously you weren't reading my post very carefuly. I am not trying to be rude, but just because there are several hundred Zabinis doesn't mean that the name wasn't accidently changed in translation somewhere. There are several thousand Sabinis was the point I was trying to make. There was also no original origin of the name Zabini either. I did hours of research not only for this forum but because I enjoy research. In that time, I did find several Zabinis and several Zabinus' but not many and I know JKR uses a lot of name play. I love to try to figure out what she is up to.
Again, I apologize if I am coming off as harsh, but I am trying to explain myself here.
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Tomoé - Dec 8, 2003 3:31 pm (#265 of 491)
Back in business
Anastasia said : "There was also no original origin of the name Zabini either. I did hours of research not only for this forum but because I enjoy research. In that time, I did find several Zabinis and several Zabinus' but not many".
You did the search ! Thank you a lot Anastasia. Since there's "no original origin of the name Zabini" I think you're guess is right, except that I think it wasn't a translation mistake but a transcription mistake. Through the centuries, if some Sabini didn't know how to write their name, when they said to the guy in charge to record birth that the name was Zabini, they have not clue to tell him "with an S an a Z". The guy not knowing about the Sabini family write down Zabini instead. We saw these kind of thing append in Canada. I.e. the family Leclaire is a miscripted version of Leclerc, both are prononced alike, but Leclair mean "the clear" and Leclerc mean "the clerck".
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Warty Harris - Dec 8, 2003 5:56 pm (#266 of 491)
Wooo people....simma down now!
I leave for a few days and look what happens. However I ,Warty, am here to offer my useless insights that everyone will probably shelve immediatley.
A.G. good work...but I have to agree with crystalgazer here. Sabine probably has nothing to do with Zabini. The name Zabinus doesn't have to "mean" anything. The fact that he is a historical figure says something to me, and kudos to Tomoe who found the name Zabinus(Latin) a General that fights against an evil empire, and wins, but doesn't become King hmmmm interesting . I already knew about St. Blaise crystalgazer, but I think that is the most important part of this mystery.
Zabinus is more likely the origin as Tomoe pointed out earlier. JKR uses the names of Saints often (Hedwig, Godric) and Latin all the time (try spells, incantaions, and name derivatives) I do not think that the name itself must mean something. I think it is more likely in JKR's world that Zabini is some form of Zabinus, and she discovered this somewhere and thought it was interesting, and viola it ends up in Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone!
...or she just needed a name to end the sorting ceremony. I think there is certainly more to Blaise Zabini (who I firmly believe now more then ever is male) The St. Blaise was found by Hunters of the Governor in a cave surrounded by Wild animals was also very interesting, I think it could be important.
Take it easy.....None of us will know until book six or seven, so relax and enjoy. There are no right answers here. Blaise Zabini may not be important at all, and the Mystery Slytherin could be Nott. I am starting to think that is highly unlikey though. I also am curious about another Mystery Slytherin now. If Blaise is the fifth boy then who is the fifth girl? Sally Anne Perks? Yet another Mystery Slytherin approaches.....so many questions!
By the way, I like the idea that the name could be mispronounced, but this happens a lot in the United States and Canada not Italy. I doubt that the origin of the name would get it wrong. Zabini is Zabini ans Sabini is Sabini.....I did ask an Italian friend and this type of mistake is uncommon in Italy. It is very common in the United States, but our Zabini is from Europe and she says this type of mistake would not happen very often there.
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Hem Hem - Dec 8, 2003 9:29 pm (#267 of 491)
Here's an idea that answers the enigma behind Zabini's name about as mundanely as possible, but it just may be plausible:
JKR wrote the sorting with literary intentions of presenting some useless information. After all, through Harry's perspective, he is in a very new world, with a whole bunch of strangers, seeing a whole bunch of stuff and not quite absorbing all of it. He's supposed to be overwhelmed, and JKR needed to make that apparent throught her writing. One specific way she did that was by making Harry's class seem large. She began the list alphabetically with "Abbott" and ended with "Zabini." Probablity wise, a class Harry's size would not typically extend so comprehensively from A to Z, but Harry's class did. To the reader, this makes Harry's class seem very large, which helps the reader feel Harry's overwhelmed-ness.
Okay, so perhaps there is still more to Zabini's name. But I think JKR chose specifically a name that ended in a Z for this. You never know!
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Warty Harris - Dec 9, 2003 12:12 pm (#268 of 491)
I think that is a possibility Hem Hem.
Nott is the son of a death eater and a friend to Malfoy. I just don't see him switching sides. The mystery Slytherin doesn't even need to be good per say, but I think there was more to bringing in a third boy who has seen death. Whomever he is I think it may be important down the line. Perhaps this experience will make him rethink hating Harry Potter so much. He will understand him more. I do recall Hermione doing some serious damage to his father in the Battle at the end of book five, but he may not hold that against her, or even if he does he mind may change later on. He may be the Slytherin who can see Thestrals and therefore empathizes with Harry and Neville somehow.
The Mystery Slytherin could also be a completely different character, as many of us are guessing. I do think there are only five boys in Slytherin that year, and that Zabini is one of them.
So, by my calculations (which mean nothing) The mystery Slytherin is probably Zabini or Nott and there is a good story behind either one being the Mystery Slytherin.
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Neville Longbottom - Dec 9, 2003 2:11 pm (#269 of 491)
I want to contradict the theory, that Nott is a friend of Malfoy. He is never around Malfoy and his goons, with the exception of the scene after the Quibbler interview. And in this scene, it's understandable that he's angry (who knows, maybe he even thought that his father was innocent?). But this is the only scene, where Nott is seen talking with Malfoy. Theodore Nott isn't even a member of the inquisitorial squad. This could IMO very well a hint, that he might not be that bad after all.
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Warty Harris - Dec 9, 2003 2:50 pm (#270 of 491)
You are right Neville. He isn't seen much throughout the first five HP books, but his father is a Death Eater, and he is seen talking to Malfoy. If Nott is the mystery Slytherin then like I said before he probably will have empathy towards Neville and Harry. Perhaps he will not follow in his fathers footsteps.
If it is the 5th Slytherin (whomever that may be)or Nott He may work against Malfoy, or even become a spy. Because once again this mystery Slytherin may empathize so strongly with Neville and Harry. He may be a little bit older beyond his years(more mature then Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle). He may see right and wrong clearer, and be able to make choices that a typical Slytherin may not.
I am thinking along the lines of the mystery Slytherin not following the crowd. Not become a Death Eater just because all the other Slytherins do. He may feel that Death Eaters are no good because he feels the pain they inflict.
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fidelio - Dec 10, 2003 7:39 am (#271 of 491)
Here's another thought on young Nott--it's entirely possible that his father, like Regulus Black [and Snape, more than likely] had, at the time, or has had since, serious second thoughts about being involved with Voldie. He may well have heaved a deep sigh of relief when Ol' Snake Face vanished after killing James and Lily. However, fear of the consequences may have kept him in line, and forced him to return once Voldie made his comeback. In such circumstances, I can see him [and very likely Mrs. Nott as well] raising their children to have nothing to do with the DEs and similar types. Young Nott may have been unaware of his father's connections until the Quibbler article came out. If Nott the elder did regret his involvement, I can see the way clear for his son to become the "good Slytherin" we keep looking for. Of course, this doesn't resolve the issue of whether the unnamed Slytherin in the Thestral lesson episode is Nott, or another student!
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Peregrine - Dec 10, 2003 11:26 am (#272 of 491)
In regards to Nott and Malfoy’s vague friendship, it may be along the lines of Harry and Dean. They’re in the same house and they know each other but they don’t necessarily have to hang out all the time. I personally can’t understand why anyone is friends with Malfoy so (especially if fidelio’s right about Nott Sr.) maybe Nott Jr. has to go along with Malfoy just to keep up appearances.
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Crystal - Dec 11, 2003 7:15 pm (#273 of 491)
Oh...I really do apoligize for sounding mean Anastasia. I was all Huffy. I didn't take anything personally and I hope you don't either.
I think the idea of the Mystery Slytherin being important because they feel Harry's pain is very likely. He may indeed be more mature then the rest of Slytherins. Nott may have been talking to Malfoy because of peer pressure. Also both these young men may change without their fathers around.
Was Nott the elder arrested after the Battle?
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Tomoé - Dec 11, 2003 8:58 pm (#274 of 491)
Back in business
After three sons of Death Eater who follow the "pureblood" ideology, it would be better for the plot if Nott chose another path. If Nott is the Mystery Slythrin, he could had been witness of settling of hash among DE or between DE and one of Voldemort's supporter. Unlike the other Slytherins, he would know how the harsh reality of Voldemort's justice and may want to get out of that world safely. If he's not, his father may have tell him what it was like went he was a DE, advising him not to get involved in a group like that.
By the way, I did the search for zabin... in the Greek dictionaries and I end up with za -> very and bineo -> bia -> violent. Then, Zabinus is a latin version for a Greek name that mean very violent. My sister tell me it's possible that Zabinoe became Zabinus in latin.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 11, 2003 9:30 pm (#275 of 491)
Tomoe, of all the possible interpretations of Zabini we've come up with, yours is the one that could have any revelance to the character at all. I mean we could make a case for Blaise (sounds like blaze) = fire and Zabini = very violent...a very violent fire will be set by this character. Or, something nasty having to do with fire.
Good work, there, Tomoe. (I did check the Greek dictionaries at the library, but only had the English to Greek/Greek to English ones and all the words in Greek were in the Greek alphabet so they were all Greek to me.)
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Dec 11, 2003 10:06 pm (#276 of 491)
Back in business
All the words were in Greek alphabet in my dictionaries too, but I had a handmade letter chart copy with me to remember what letter I was looking for and in which order them were sorted.
So, that give us very violent fire, doesn't sound cunning though. Maybe s/he will shows us another way to do anything to reach one goals.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 14, 2003 8:52 am (#277 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Crystal,
I am sorry too. We all get kind of carried away in here. It is like a great debate...lol
You brought up a great point though. About the DE's who were sent to Azkaban. Should we start a new thread?
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Maollelujah - Dec 23, 2003 1:32 am (#278 of 491)
It isn't Alexander Zabinus, but rather Alexander Zabinas, who claims to be the adopted son of Alexander Balas. Zabinas is neither Latin, nor Greek, but Aramic, meaning "the Bought One", which has the connotation of 'slave'.
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Crystal - Dec 26, 2003 2:09 pm (#279 of 491)
Edited by Dec 26, 2003 1:21 pm
It has been a while since I posted. I certainly think that the death Eaters that were sent Azkaban are going to play an important role in the the last two books Anastasia , perhaps I should re-read the end of the 5th book and see what I can find out. Oh.....I will read all of the 5th book again! research.
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timrew - Jan 2, 2004 4:02 pm (#280 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Regarding the controversy about whether Blaise Zabini is a boy or girl. I have to admit that I have never come across anyone called Blaise in my entire life.
But tonight on TV, a reporter from a local paper (The Manchester Evening News) was being interviewed, and his name was Blaise Tapp.
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siobhan - Jan 3, 2004 12:03 pm (#281 of 491)
In the schoollist Hermione Granger is added in as a last minute entry. Does this strike any of you as a little odd? Perhaps she had another name?
As for the Mystery Slytherin I have a feeling that it is neither Nott nor Zabini. But if I must decide between the two I will go for Nott because Zabini I always felt just had a last name with a Z so finishing the sorting, like an offhand name.
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timrew - Jan 4, 2004 1:29 pm (#282 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't think it's Zabini either. The point of my post was to help settle a discussion over whether Blaise was a girl's or a boy's name.
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kdcludej - Jan 4, 2004 6:50 pm (#283 of 491)
Student
I think that Rowling probably just wanted to have a third person for people to wonder about. I mean not every character has to have a special reason. I mean look at all the other houses. Those people are just there to fill the houses in and so there can be some conflict.
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Tomoé - Jan 19, 2004 11:46 pm (#284 of 491)
Back in business
Right, Maollelujah, I should have look in a history book before to assume that Zabinus was a Greek.
Siobhan, the discussion over JKR's notebook had moved to the Minor Characters, including Students thread. However, I give you a link to another screen shot were we can see a little bit more of the second page (but the link doesn't work anymore, I will work on that later this week). It seem a student was named Hermione Punkle, then the family name was scratched and replace by Granger. The same went for Neville, who was a Puff before he became a Longbottom. You should answer back in the Minor Characters, including Students thread.
Back to the topic, as I reread the thestral lesson, I saw some hints that I didn't before. When Hagrid asked to the ones who saw the thestrals to raise up their hands, he said:
'Yeah, I knew you do Harry', said Hagrid seriously. 'And you too Neville, eh? And -' (not the exact quote, but close enough. The "eh?" was in lower cases and following a coma, so it seem to be link to Neville instead of the mystery boy.)
The second "And" make me think that Hagrid was about to say "And you too, [put the name you want]". If not, I think Hagrid would have change his phrasing, what do you English speakers think of this ?
If I'm right, it would mean it was well know that the kid had witness death. The other Slytherin didn't look at him when they knew why he was able to see them, so I believe they too knew the circumstances of that death.
If it was well know, I think we can rule out the murder possibility. It wouldn't have been well know if the kid saw a murder or commit a murder. He could have killed someone though, by accident, or failed to save someone in difficulty. It could be one his grandparents or someone sick or injuried. Or someone die saving his life. Many possibilities in fact.
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail. (I copied Slythrin Prefect's quote in post #1)
Since the Slytherin show an expression of great distaste on his face, I would bet he seen death over the summer, didn't see the thestrals as he took the coach and saw the beast for the very first time that day. And, as he stand behind Goyle, we can assume the Mystery Slytherin is in good term with Malfoy's gang. If not, he would have stand away from them.
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Crystal - Jan 20, 2004 8:41 pm (#285 of 491)
I just thought about something. I was looking over the death eater info after Anastasia said there should be a thread about Death Eaters. We all know that Notts father is a Death Eater! We also know that in the end of book four there are Death Eaters all around Harry and Cedric. Tomoe's theory that maybe this Slytherin just saw death over the summer leads one to think that it is indeed Nott that saw the thestrals, because he saw Cedric die as well!
Did that make sense?
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Tomoé - Jan 20, 2004 11:14 pm (#286 of 491)
Back in business
Nott Sr would have bring Nott Jr to the rebirth party ... wasn't Nott Jr in Hogwarts at that time, watching the third task ? And even if he was there, the murder of Cedric take place before the DE were called by Voldemort. So I don't think it make sense, good try, though.
But that doesn't rule out Nott for seeing a murder, even if I think it's unlikely. It could be Karkaroff from which we have no news. Maybe the Daily Prophet had report his death when Harry was thinking of his trial and Hagrid had get the news from the other member of the Order before his first lesson.
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Anna L. Black - Jan 21, 2004 8:56 am (#287 of 491)
Edited by Jan 21, 2004 7:57 am
But even if Karkaroff is dead (Which I doubt, Harry would probably know about it), what's the chance of Hagrid, or anyone in the Order for that matter, knowing that Nott Jr. had seen his murder? Besides, why would he even see that? The Death Eaters still haven't started killing people in front of their children, have they? They haven't even started killing at all (Cedric and Sirius, OK, but that was... coincidental) Also, it says "watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face" - doesn't it mean that he thought that the process of eating itself was repulsive?
Wow, my first serious post
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 21, 2004 9:31 am (#288 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Welcome Anna.... taking that first step is tough... but after that, there will be no stopping ya, & yup, I agree with you, I think that the 'Mystery Slytherin' guy was just repulsed by the Thestral tearing into the animal carcass, don't think I'd like that myself!
Interesting theory however Tomoe ... I wonder who he did see die....
EDIT : hee hee, crossed posts there Choices ... doesn't happen me often, theres never many around when I'm here ...
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Choices - Jan 21, 2004 9:33 am (#289 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I always thought it was what the thestral was eating or just the appearance of the thestral that was disgusting to the boy, not the act of eating. Like Buckbeak - he eats rats and other bloody scraps of things.
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Tomoé - Jan 21, 2004 2:56 pm (#290 of 491)
Back in business
I was trying to see if CrystalGazer's theory could work and it seem it could, but only with far fetched "what if". For my part, I still think that the murder thesis is unlikely, whoever is the Mystery Slytherin.
About the disgust on the face of the Mystery Slytherin, who knows, he can be vegetarian ^_^ .
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Tomoé - Jan 21, 2004 5:15 pm (#291 of 491)
Back in business
By the way, I can't find any evidence that Nott is in Slytherin's house. Can you help me ?
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 2:38 am (#292 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
I don't have my books on me at the moment (I'm at work ) but I think when Hermione tells Harry who Nott is, it describes him as being part of the slytherin gang.
It also states in the Lexicon that he's in Slytherin .... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 3:11 am (#293 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Not quite halfway through chapter 26 of book 5, the following paragraph mentions Nott:
If anything more was needed to complete Harry's happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment: Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this: he had named all of their fathers as Death Eaters.
Based on this paragraph, you would think that Theodore Nott is in Slytherin.
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Joost! - Jan 22, 2004 3:19 am (#294 of 491)
Second line of information
Isn't Nott sorted in Slytherin in PS/SS?
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 4:03 am (#295 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
We do not know for sure. The sorting dialogue reads:
There weren't many people left now. "Moon" "Nott" "Parkinson" then a pair of twin girls, "Patil" and "Patil" then "Perks, Sally-Anne" and then, at last -- "Potter, Harry!"
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 4:06 am (#296 of 491)
So basically, we all asume Nott is a slytherin, but we don't have proof.
I think it is likely he is a slytherin, but it is also possible he is a Ravenclaw or hufflepuff. after all we never saw him sit with the other Slyts before, and something makes me think that not all DE's are slytherins. That seems to black and white for JKR.
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 4:14 am (#297 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Thanks for the quote Kip.
Thats very interesting, I had always assumed that Nott was in Slytherin, but you're right it never does actually state that he is!
Just goes to show you what thought did
So if Notts not a Slytherin (confused yet), then I wonder which house he belongs to. I think you have a very valid point Mare, I wonder if any of the DE's were ever in Griffindor....
But I digress, the point I was going to make (hee hee, just getting to it now), if we're not sure that Nott is a Slytherin, then that leaves the 'Mystery Slytherin' possibilities wide open again ....
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 4:24 am (#298 of 491)
Well it is assumed by many that Peter Pettigrew was a Gryffindor. And he turned out to be quit the Death Eater.
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 4:27 am (#299 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Fawkes, I believe that Nott is a Slytherin based on my post #293 above. Re-read that post! Look at the other three he is huddling. They are definite Slytherin and considering how close they appear, I fell there is no doubt he is a Slytherin.
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 4:45 am (#300 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
True Kip, personally that paragraph screamed out at me 'Notts a Slytherin', infact I did not think he could possibly be in any other house, I couldn't imagine a Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw being so chummy with Draco, Crabbe & Goyle! I was just trying to keep an open mind, hey, anything is possible ... right
And Mare... good catch on Pettigrew. I'm one of those who assume he was in Griffindor too, but we'll never truely know unless JK tells us
Tis fun to ponder however ....
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Back in business
Thanks Joost!, so there's no word begining by "zabin" in ancient Greek, but that's not the first time we seem to be in a dead end ^_^ . Maybe they made up the name by contracting two smaller ones. I'll look myself this week, but feel free to continue search on your own, the more we are to work on that problem, the more we have chance to succes.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 6, 2003 11:22 pm (#252 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I did a ton of research and I believe I have come up with a total and complete reasoning as to where JKR came up with the surname Zabini.
Sabini is an Italian surname. It hails from the town of Montegroppo in Italy. When this last name is spoken by a true Italian, what is heard is Zabini, not Sabini.
I believe that this is where this name truly comes from. Especially since there have been several of us who have researched the name and have only found few people who actually spell it with the Z.
I did find one burial plot out west in Los Angeles CA of an Emile Zabini born Nov. 28 1884 died June 10 1964. I find this also to be rare.
These spellings can also be attributed to the same factor because when my grandparents came over to America their last name was changed because they didn't speak English and the Americans spelled it how it sounded to them. This happened all the time years ago. It happened in several countries too so that would explain why they would be widespread.
Hope this helps and puts an end to this part of the mystery.
Huggs
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Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 6:56 am (#253 of 491)
AG, thanks, but did you get any sense of what it may mean?
Ciao. Barb
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timrew - Dec 7, 2003 7:06 am (#254 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Barb, it translates (from the ancient Italian) as, "The Good Slytherin".
Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 9:13 am (#255 of 491) [/b]
Darn, I was hoping it was some new kind of pasta I haven't tried yet.
Ciao. Barb
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 7, 2003 10:31 am (#256 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Hey, I did find out it is a brand of wine Barb...lol
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 7, 2003 10:45 am (#257 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I know this doesn't help, but I looked it up... so here goes straight from the book.....
SAVINI, SAVINO, SAVINIO, SAVINA, SABINI, SABINO, SAVINELLI
From the first name Savino or Sabino, derived from the name of a pre-roman population: the Sabines
The name hails from a pre-roman population. There is no hidden meaning.... This is getting me in deeper and deeper instead of getting us out. I was really trying to help.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 7, 2003 3:17 pm (#258 of 491)
AG, thanks. Sometimes we Forum Folk have to just accept the fact that research must be enjoyed for its own sake; no huge revelations result. Hey, it's good practice.
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 7, 2003 10:46 pm (#259 of 491)
To A.G. and madame Librarian,
This is just a discussion. If you don't see any point in or any hidden meaning that is fine to say. I do happen to see the point that there is something more to this discussion. No one is the authority here. Blaise Zabinis name is probably pointless talk, but it is still interesting....and I happen to think that the Sabine people have nothing to do with it, and the name Zabinus is more likely where the name came from. Even if it has no more part in the H.P. Series.
Not to be rude, but I think your research was pointless A.G.
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Tomoé - Dec 8, 2003 3:06 am (#260 of 491)
Back in business
About Zabini's origine, I think that both theories can be true, but there's no way we could find out without asking to the "Italian Genealogic Society", if such a groupe do exist. And for the meaning of the name, I don't think it will have any incidence on the story, we are really too far deep this time. Nevertheless, I do enjoy this research a lot ^_^ .
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Joost! - Dec 8, 2003 3:47 am (#261 of 491)
Second line of information
Just to post some useless knowledge:
Right after Rome was founded (by Romulus and Remus), there were a lot of young men in the city looking for a better future. Unfortunately they were seen as a bunch of hoodlums so no father in the area would let his daughter live there. And with no women, the city would only last one generation. The Roman men kidnapped a lot Sabine virgins to ensure the survival of Rome.
I don’t think this applies to Blaise, but who knows, maybe she’ll get kidnapped by Lupin
Edit: Found this website, which basically argees with what I said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Madame Librarian - Dec 8, 2003 5:57 am (#262 of 491)
CrystalGazer, forgive me for being dense here, but your final sentence seems to contradict your original statement. First you say that you do see a point to continued discussion, then you tell AG that the research was pointless. Since I was the one to sort of get the "Zabini" part going in the first place, I certainly think it's interesting even though at this time, I don't think we've hit on anything that can be directly tied to the character in HP.
I'm always in favor of research (to a degree--I don't believe in being extreme to the point of filling Forum space with repeated opionions and dead-end agree/disagree situations) which, I believe, increases general knowledge, gets others thinking on a track they may not have noticed before, and is sometimes loads of fun (what a concept!).
If you read my comment carefully, I think you'll realize that I don't regret at all our attempts to clear things up. I just meant that for now, we seem to have used up most available resources without any satisfactory results. Let the discussion continue for sure!
Ciao. Barb
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Crystal - Dec 8, 2003 9:52 am (#263 of 491)
Edited by Dec 8, 2003 8:52 am
I didn't mean to be mean...
No research here is useless or pointless. All I was saying is that the name Sabine doesn't prove anything as I looked up the last name Zabini in the Italian Directory and there are several hundred. I don't think that the names are related.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 8, 2003 12:55 pm (#264 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
CrystalGazer,
Obviously you weren't reading my post very carefuly. I am not trying to be rude, but just because there are several hundred Zabinis doesn't mean that the name wasn't accidently changed in translation somewhere. There are several thousand Sabinis was the point I was trying to make. There was also no original origin of the name Zabini either. I did hours of research not only for this forum but because I enjoy research. In that time, I did find several Zabinis and several Zabinus' but not many and I know JKR uses a lot of name play. I love to try to figure out what she is up to.
Again, I apologize if I am coming off as harsh, but I am trying to explain myself here.
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Tomoé - Dec 8, 2003 3:31 pm (#265 of 491)
Back in business
Anastasia said : "There was also no original origin of the name Zabini either. I did hours of research not only for this forum but because I enjoy research. In that time, I did find several Zabinis and several Zabinus' but not many".
You did the search ! Thank you a lot Anastasia. Since there's "no original origin of the name Zabini" I think you're guess is right, except that I think it wasn't a translation mistake but a transcription mistake. Through the centuries, if some Sabini didn't know how to write their name, when they said to the guy in charge to record birth that the name was Zabini, they have not clue to tell him "with an S an a Z". The guy not knowing about the Sabini family write down Zabini instead. We saw these kind of thing append in Canada. I.e. the family Leclaire is a miscripted version of Leclerc, both are prononced alike, but Leclair mean "the clear" and Leclerc mean "the clerck".
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Warty Harris - Dec 8, 2003 5:56 pm (#266 of 491)
Wooo people....simma down now!
I leave for a few days and look what happens. However I ,Warty, am here to offer my useless insights that everyone will probably shelve immediatley.
A.G. good work...but I have to agree with crystalgazer here. Sabine probably has nothing to do with Zabini. The name Zabinus doesn't have to "mean" anything. The fact that he is a historical figure says something to me, and kudos to Tomoe who found the name Zabinus(Latin) a General that fights against an evil empire, and wins, but doesn't become King hmmmm interesting . I already knew about St. Blaise crystalgazer, but I think that is the most important part of this mystery.
Zabinus is more likely the origin as Tomoe pointed out earlier. JKR uses the names of Saints often (Hedwig, Godric) and Latin all the time (try spells, incantaions, and name derivatives) I do not think that the name itself must mean something. I think it is more likely in JKR's world that Zabini is some form of Zabinus, and she discovered this somewhere and thought it was interesting, and viola it ends up in Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone!
...or she just needed a name to end the sorting ceremony. I think there is certainly more to Blaise Zabini (who I firmly believe now more then ever is male) The St. Blaise was found by Hunters of the Governor in a cave surrounded by Wild animals was also very interesting, I think it could be important.
Take it easy.....None of us will know until book six or seven, so relax and enjoy. There are no right answers here. Blaise Zabini may not be important at all, and the Mystery Slytherin could be Nott. I am starting to think that is highly unlikey though. I also am curious about another Mystery Slytherin now. If Blaise is the fifth boy then who is the fifth girl? Sally Anne Perks? Yet another Mystery Slytherin approaches.....so many questions!
By the way, I like the idea that the name could be mispronounced, but this happens a lot in the United States and Canada not Italy. I doubt that the origin of the name would get it wrong. Zabini is Zabini ans Sabini is Sabini.....I did ask an Italian friend and this type of mistake is uncommon in Italy. It is very common in the United States, but our Zabini is from Europe and she says this type of mistake would not happen very often there.
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Hem Hem - Dec 8, 2003 9:29 pm (#267 of 491)
Here's an idea that answers the enigma behind Zabini's name about as mundanely as possible, but it just may be plausible:
JKR wrote the sorting with literary intentions of presenting some useless information. After all, through Harry's perspective, he is in a very new world, with a whole bunch of strangers, seeing a whole bunch of stuff and not quite absorbing all of it. He's supposed to be overwhelmed, and JKR needed to make that apparent throught her writing. One specific way she did that was by making Harry's class seem large. She began the list alphabetically with "Abbott" and ended with "Zabini." Probablity wise, a class Harry's size would not typically extend so comprehensively from A to Z, but Harry's class did. To the reader, this makes Harry's class seem very large, which helps the reader feel Harry's overwhelmed-ness.
Okay, so perhaps there is still more to Zabini's name. But I think JKR chose specifically a name that ended in a Z for this. You never know!
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Warty Harris - Dec 9, 2003 12:12 pm (#268 of 491)
I think that is a possibility Hem Hem.
Nott is the son of a death eater and a friend to Malfoy. I just don't see him switching sides. The mystery Slytherin doesn't even need to be good per say, but I think there was more to bringing in a third boy who has seen death. Whomever he is I think it may be important down the line. Perhaps this experience will make him rethink hating Harry Potter so much. He will understand him more. I do recall Hermione doing some serious damage to his father in the Battle at the end of book five, but he may not hold that against her, or even if he does he mind may change later on. He may be the Slytherin who can see Thestrals and therefore empathizes with Harry and Neville somehow.
The Mystery Slytherin could also be a completely different character, as many of us are guessing. I do think there are only five boys in Slytherin that year, and that Zabini is one of them.
So, by my calculations (which mean nothing) The mystery Slytherin is probably Zabini or Nott and there is a good story behind either one being the Mystery Slytherin.
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Neville Longbottom - Dec 9, 2003 2:11 pm (#269 of 491)
I want to contradict the theory, that Nott is a friend of Malfoy. He is never around Malfoy and his goons, with the exception of the scene after the Quibbler interview. And in this scene, it's understandable that he's angry (who knows, maybe he even thought that his father was innocent?). But this is the only scene, where Nott is seen talking with Malfoy. Theodore Nott isn't even a member of the inquisitorial squad. This could IMO very well a hint, that he might not be that bad after all.
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Warty Harris - Dec 9, 2003 2:50 pm (#270 of 491)
You are right Neville. He isn't seen much throughout the first five HP books, but his father is a Death Eater, and he is seen talking to Malfoy. If Nott is the mystery Slytherin then like I said before he probably will have empathy towards Neville and Harry. Perhaps he will not follow in his fathers footsteps.
If it is the 5th Slytherin (whomever that may be)or Nott He may work against Malfoy, or even become a spy. Because once again this mystery Slytherin may empathize so strongly with Neville and Harry. He may be a little bit older beyond his years(more mature then Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle). He may see right and wrong clearer, and be able to make choices that a typical Slytherin may not.
I am thinking along the lines of the mystery Slytherin not following the crowd. Not become a Death Eater just because all the other Slytherins do. He may feel that Death Eaters are no good because he feels the pain they inflict.
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fidelio - Dec 10, 2003 7:39 am (#271 of 491)
Here's another thought on young Nott--it's entirely possible that his father, like Regulus Black [and Snape, more than likely] had, at the time, or has had since, serious second thoughts about being involved with Voldie. He may well have heaved a deep sigh of relief when Ol' Snake Face vanished after killing James and Lily. However, fear of the consequences may have kept him in line, and forced him to return once Voldie made his comeback. In such circumstances, I can see him [and very likely Mrs. Nott as well] raising their children to have nothing to do with the DEs and similar types. Young Nott may have been unaware of his father's connections until the Quibbler article came out. If Nott the elder did regret his involvement, I can see the way clear for his son to become the "good Slytherin" we keep looking for. Of course, this doesn't resolve the issue of whether the unnamed Slytherin in the Thestral lesson episode is Nott, or another student!
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Peregrine - Dec 10, 2003 11:26 am (#272 of 491)
In regards to Nott and Malfoy’s vague friendship, it may be along the lines of Harry and Dean. They’re in the same house and they know each other but they don’t necessarily have to hang out all the time. I personally can’t understand why anyone is friends with Malfoy so (especially if fidelio’s right about Nott Sr.) maybe Nott Jr. has to go along with Malfoy just to keep up appearances.
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Crystal - Dec 11, 2003 7:15 pm (#273 of 491)
Oh...I really do apoligize for sounding mean Anastasia. I was all Huffy. I didn't take anything personally and I hope you don't either.
I think the idea of the Mystery Slytherin being important because they feel Harry's pain is very likely. He may indeed be more mature then the rest of Slytherins. Nott may have been talking to Malfoy because of peer pressure. Also both these young men may change without their fathers around.
Was Nott the elder arrested after the Battle?
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Tomoé - Dec 11, 2003 8:58 pm (#274 of 491)
Back in business
After three sons of Death Eater who follow the "pureblood" ideology, it would be better for the plot if Nott chose another path. If Nott is the Mystery Slythrin, he could had been witness of settling of hash among DE or between DE and one of Voldemort's supporter. Unlike the other Slytherins, he would know how the harsh reality of Voldemort's justice and may want to get out of that world safely. If he's not, his father may have tell him what it was like went he was a DE, advising him not to get involved in a group like that.
By the way, I did the search for zabin... in the Greek dictionaries and I end up with za -> very and bineo -> bia -> violent. Then, Zabinus is a latin version for a Greek name that mean very violent. My sister tell me it's possible that Zabinoe became Zabinus in latin.
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Madame Librarian - Dec 11, 2003 9:30 pm (#275 of 491)
Tomoe, of all the possible interpretations of Zabini we've come up with, yours is the one that could have any revelance to the character at all. I mean we could make a case for Blaise (sounds like blaze) = fire and Zabini = very violent...a very violent fire will be set by this character. Or, something nasty having to do with fire.
Good work, there, Tomoe. (I did check the Greek dictionaries at the library, but only had the English to Greek/Greek to English ones and all the words in Greek were in the Greek alphabet so they were all Greek to me.)
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Dec 11, 2003 10:06 pm (#276 of 491)
Back in business
All the words were in Greek alphabet in my dictionaries too, but I had a handmade letter chart copy with me to remember what letter I was looking for and in which order them were sorted.
So, that give us very violent fire, doesn't sound cunning though. Maybe s/he will shows us another way to do anything to reach one goals.
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Anastasia Gilbreath - Dec 14, 2003 8:52 am (#277 of 491)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Crystal,
I am sorry too. We all get kind of carried away in here. It is like a great debate...lol
You brought up a great point though. About the DE's who were sent to Azkaban. Should we start a new thread?
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Maollelujah - Dec 23, 2003 1:32 am (#278 of 491)
It isn't Alexander Zabinus, but rather Alexander Zabinas, who claims to be the adopted son of Alexander Balas. Zabinas is neither Latin, nor Greek, but Aramic, meaning "the Bought One", which has the connotation of 'slave'.
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Crystal - Dec 26, 2003 2:09 pm (#279 of 491)
Edited by Dec 26, 2003 1:21 pm
It has been a while since I posted. I certainly think that the death Eaters that were sent Azkaban are going to play an important role in the the last two books Anastasia , perhaps I should re-read the end of the 5th book and see what I can find out. Oh.....I will read all of the 5th book again! research.
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timrew - Jan 2, 2004 4:02 pm (#280 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Regarding the controversy about whether Blaise Zabini is a boy or girl. I have to admit that I have never come across anyone called Blaise in my entire life.
But tonight on TV, a reporter from a local paper (The Manchester Evening News) was being interviewed, and his name was Blaise Tapp.
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siobhan - Jan 3, 2004 12:03 pm (#281 of 491)
In the schoollist Hermione Granger is added in as a last minute entry. Does this strike any of you as a little odd? Perhaps she had another name?
As for the Mystery Slytherin I have a feeling that it is neither Nott nor Zabini. But if I must decide between the two I will go for Nott because Zabini I always felt just had a last name with a Z so finishing the sorting, like an offhand name.
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timrew - Jan 4, 2004 1:29 pm (#282 of 491)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't think it's Zabini either. The point of my post was to help settle a discussion over whether Blaise was a girl's or a boy's name.
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kdcludej - Jan 4, 2004 6:50 pm (#283 of 491)
Student
I think that Rowling probably just wanted to have a third person for people to wonder about. I mean not every character has to have a special reason. I mean look at all the other houses. Those people are just there to fill the houses in and so there can be some conflict.
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Tomoé - Jan 19, 2004 11:46 pm (#284 of 491)
Back in business
Right, Maollelujah, I should have look in a history book before to assume that Zabinus was a Greek.
Siobhan, the discussion over JKR's notebook had moved to the Minor Characters, including Students thread. However, I give you a link to another screen shot were we can see a little bit more of the second page (but the link doesn't work anymore, I will work on that later this week). It seem a student was named Hermione Punkle, then the family name was scratched and replace by Granger. The same went for Neville, who was a Puff before he became a Longbottom. You should answer back in the Minor Characters, including Students thread.
Back to the topic, as I reread the thestral lesson, I saw some hints that I didn't before. When Hagrid asked to the ones who saw the thestrals to raise up their hands, he said:
'Yeah, I knew you do Harry', said Hagrid seriously. 'And you too Neville, eh? And -' (not the exact quote, but close enough. The "eh?" was in lower cases and following a coma, so it seem to be link to Neville instead of the mystery boy.)
The second "And" make me think that Hagrid was about to say "And you too, [put the name you want]". If not, I think Hagrid would have change his phrasing, what do you English speakers think of this ?
If I'm right, it would mean it was well know that the kid had witness death. The other Slytherin didn't look at him when they knew why he was able to see them, so I believe they too knew the circumstances of that death.
If it was well know, I think we can rule out the murder possibility. It wouldn't have been well know if the kid saw a murder or commit a murder. He could have killed someone though, by accident, or failed to save someone in difficulty. It could be one his grandparents or someone sick or injuried. Or someone die saving his life. Many possibilities in fact.
There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see (the thestrals): a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail. (I copied Slythrin Prefect's quote in post #1)
Since the Slytherin show an expression of great distaste on his face, I would bet he seen death over the summer, didn't see the thestrals as he took the coach and saw the beast for the very first time that day. And, as he stand behind Goyle, we can assume the Mystery Slytherin is in good term with Malfoy's gang. If not, he would have stand away from them.
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Crystal - Jan 20, 2004 8:41 pm (#285 of 491)
I just thought about something. I was looking over the death eater info after Anastasia said there should be a thread about Death Eaters. We all know that Notts father is a Death Eater! We also know that in the end of book four there are Death Eaters all around Harry and Cedric. Tomoe's theory that maybe this Slytherin just saw death over the summer leads one to think that it is indeed Nott that saw the thestrals, because he saw Cedric die as well!
Did that make sense?
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Tomoé - Jan 20, 2004 11:14 pm (#286 of 491)
Back in business
Nott Sr would have bring Nott Jr to the rebirth party ... wasn't Nott Jr in Hogwarts at that time, watching the third task ? And even if he was there, the murder of Cedric take place before the DE were called by Voldemort. So I don't think it make sense, good try, though.
But that doesn't rule out Nott for seeing a murder, even if I think it's unlikely. It could be Karkaroff from which we have no news. Maybe the Daily Prophet had report his death when Harry was thinking of his trial and Hagrid had get the news from the other member of the Order before his first lesson.
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Anna L. Black - Jan 21, 2004 8:56 am (#287 of 491)
Edited by Jan 21, 2004 7:57 am
But even if Karkaroff is dead (Which I doubt, Harry would probably know about it), what's the chance of Hagrid, or anyone in the Order for that matter, knowing that Nott Jr. had seen his murder? Besides, why would he even see that? The Death Eaters still haven't started killing people in front of their children, have they? They haven't even started killing at all (Cedric and Sirius, OK, but that was... coincidental) Also, it says "watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face" - doesn't it mean that he thought that the process of eating itself was repulsive?
Wow, my first serious post
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 21, 2004 9:31 am (#288 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Welcome Anna.... taking that first step is tough... but after that, there will be no stopping ya, & yup, I agree with you, I think that the 'Mystery Slytherin' guy was just repulsed by the Thestral tearing into the animal carcass, don't think I'd like that myself!
Interesting theory however Tomoe ... I wonder who he did see die....
EDIT : hee hee, crossed posts there Choices ... doesn't happen me often, theres never many around when I'm here ...
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Choices - Jan 21, 2004 9:33 am (#289 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I always thought it was what the thestral was eating or just the appearance of the thestral that was disgusting to the boy, not the act of eating. Like Buckbeak - he eats rats and other bloody scraps of things.
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Tomoé - Jan 21, 2004 2:56 pm (#290 of 491)
Back in business
I was trying to see if CrystalGazer's theory could work and it seem it could, but only with far fetched "what if". For my part, I still think that the murder thesis is unlikely, whoever is the Mystery Slytherin.
About the disgust on the face of the Mystery Slytherin, who knows, he can be vegetarian ^_^ .
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Tomoé - Jan 21, 2004 5:15 pm (#291 of 491)
Back in business
By the way, I can't find any evidence that Nott is in Slytherin's house. Can you help me ?
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 2:38 am (#292 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
I don't have my books on me at the moment (I'm at work ) but I think when Hermione tells Harry who Nott is, it describes him as being part of the slytherin gang.
It also states in the Lexicon that he's in Slytherin .... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 3:11 am (#293 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Not quite halfway through chapter 26 of book 5, the following paragraph mentions Nott:
If anything more was needed to complete Harry's happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment: Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this: he had named all of their fathers as Death Eaters.
Based on this paragraph, you would think that Theodore Nott is in Slytherin.
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Joost! - Jan 22, 2004 3:19 am (#294 of 491)
Second line of information
Isn't Nott sorted in Slytherin in PS/SS?
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 4:03 am (#295 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
We do not know for sure. The sorting dialogue reads:
There weren't many people left now. "Moon" "Nott" "Parkinson" then a pair of twin girls, "Patil" and "Patil" then "Perks, Sally-Anne" and then, at last -- "Potter, Harry!"
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 4:06 am (#296 of 491)
So basically, we all asume Nott is a slytherin, but we don't have proof.
I think it is likely he is a slytherin, but it is also possible he is a Ravenclaw or hufflepuff. after all we never saw him sit with the other Slyts before, and something makes me think that not all DE's are slytherins. That seems to black and white for JKR.
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 4:14 am (#297 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Thanks for the quote Kip.
Thats very interesting, I had always assumed that Nott was in Slytherin, but you're right it never does actually state that he is!
Just goes to show you what thought did
So if Notts not a Slytherin (confused yet), then I wonder which house he belongs to. I think you have a very valid point Mare, I wonder if any of the DE's were ever in Griffindor....
But I digress, the point I was going to make (hee hee, just getting to it now), if we're not sure that Nott is a Slytherin, then that leaves the 'Mystery Slytherin' possibilities wide open again ....
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 4:24 am (#298 of 491)
Well it is assumed by many that Peter Pettigrew was a Gryffindor. And he turned out to be quit the Death Eater.
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Kip Carter - Jan 22, 2004 4:27 am (#299 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Fawkes, I believe that Nott is a Slytherin based on my post #293 above. Re-read that post! Look at the other three he is huddling. They are definite Slytherin and considering how close they appear, I fell there is no doubt he is a Slytherin.
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Fawkes Forever - Jan 22, 2004 4:45 am (#300 of 491)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
True Kip, personally that paragraph screamed out at me 'Notts a Slytherin', infact I did not think he could possibly be in any other house, I couldn't imagine a Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw being so chummy with Draco, Crabbe & Goyle! I was just trying to keep an open mind, hey, anything is possible ... right
And Mare... good catch on Pettigrew. I'm one of those who assume he was in Griffindor too, but we'll never truely know unless JK tells us
Tis fun to ponder however ....
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 301 to 350)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:27 am
Joost! - Jan 22, 2004 4:58 am (#301 of 491)
Second line of information
I agree, Nott is most likely a Slytherin. But if he's not, Zabini is the only candidate to be the Mystery Slytherin and Blaise is a boys name.
Nice catch, Tomoe!
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 5:07 am (#302 of 491)
And I start to believe he isn't, based on that post Kip. He has so much in common with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG), with their daddies being DE's, and they are all in the same year. And Harry never noticed him before? He never participated in any of the jokes Malfoy played on Harry? This is the first time Nott is seen with those three?
He seems so close with them in that scene, your right, but if he is so close, why not in books 1-4? Where was he then? In another house perhaps?
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Kathryn Pottinger - Jan 22, 2004 5:29 am (#303 of 491)
I think that the fact that he hasn't been mentioned before coupled with the way he was introduced suggests that he will come up in book six. What I mean is, reading the paragraph that Kip quoted in isolation like that makes it stand out that the line:
"...they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott.."
Is completely unnecessary. And we all no JK Rowling doesn't do anything without reason.
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Joost! - Jan 22, 2004 5:40 am (#304 of 491)
Second line of information
I agree with you, Kathryn. Both Theodore Nott and the boy who could see Thestrals will come up in the last books.
The question is, of course; are they the same person?
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Madame Librarian - Jan 22, 2004 8:50 am (#305 of 491)
Kip posted: There weren't many people left now. "Moon" "Nott" "Parkinson" then a pair of twin girls, "Patil" and "Patil" then "Perks, Sally-Anne" and then, at last -- "Potter, Harry!"
Who, for heaven's sake, is this Moon?!? The Lex just lists the name (no first name) and the years 91-98 (for attending Hogwarts).
It's an odd name fraught with meaning for careful readers. I don't think JKR used it arbitrarily. Then again is it just a teaser?
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Jan 22, 2004 10:09 am (#306 of 491)
Back in business
And the only other quote about Nott is : "T. Nott | 22 January (QtA 1st p.)" That's doesn't help at all.
I was hoping you guys to tell me " Yeah, he is a Slytherin on the movie list." or something. I don't have the DVD yet, they are corrupting my mental images of the characters ^_^ .
So, which house, I don't think he could be in Gryffindor, Parvati and Lavander had been mentioned at least once in the first two books, even if they took no active part in the plot. And Harry should have been with Theodore for 5 years, he wouldn't have to ask Hermione who is he.
I don't think he's in Hufflepuff either, Harry have 5 years of Herbology with them, and even if he don't know all their names, he would remember him for a Hufflepuff, like he didn't know Susan Bones's name but know her for a Hufflepuff.
That leave Slytherin and Ravenclaw.
If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters. (OoP p.514 bold is mine, of course)
Are those they refer to Nott as well or only to the 3 others. If not, Theo could be quietly reading the article the whole scene. And if Theo is in Ravenclaw, couldn't he find a other way to read the interview with Harry? Except if his follow Ravenclaws didn't dare to lent him a copy, his father being named as a DE and Nott finally ask Malfoy's gang.
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Emily - Jan 22, 2004 1:36 pm (#307 of 491)
I thought that Gryffindor took CoMC with the Slytherins. If they do, then he can only be a Slytherin. I mean, even Harry could fail to notice someone who had shared his dormitory and classes for 5 years.
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Tomoé - Jan 22, 2004 2:36 pm (#308 of 491)
Back in business
Yes, Gryffindor and Slytherin took three years of CoMC together, but that could be relevant only if weedy Theodore Nott is the stringy Mystery Slytherin. Weedy and stringy are not exactly antonymous, but not exactly close either.
But he's still one of the two must likely candidate, though. One we are not sure he's a boy and one we are not sure is a Slytherin.
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hopping hessian - Jan 26, 2004 7:24 am (#309 of 491)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Nott could have been in Slytherin and in classes with Harry without Harry knowing his name. Whenever Slytherins tormented him in 1-4, JKR would name a couple specific people, but not everyone, they were just described as a gang of Slytherins. And if Nott never spoke-up in class or was rarely called on, Harry, who isn't always observant, could have missed his name.
The other option is that he was in a different house, but brought together with Malfoy because their fathers were all in the same boat.
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Peregrine - Jan 26, 2004 11:58 am (#310 of 491)
I think it’s likely that Draco and Theodore Nott didn’t know about each other’s fathers. Even if they were in the same house and same year, that doesn’t mean that they would broadcast the fact that their father’s were DEs. Malfoy does with Crabbe and Goyle presumably because their fathers all know each other but Nott might not have been aware until Harry outed everyone.
I also like Tomoe’s idea that Nott was just borrowing Malfoy’s copy of the story and wasn’t really with them in the library.
Heck, maybe the mystery Slytherin is Mark Evans’ older brother (who may or may not exist and who may or may not be related to Harry) and when Mark goes to Hogwarts (if he actually is a wizard) he’ll get sorted into Gryffindor and he and his older brother will unite the houses. It could happen, right?
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Warty Harris - Jan 26, 2004 9:12 pm (#311 of 491)
I to assumed that Nott was a Slytherin, but there is nothing to really 100% back that up. It is possible that Nott simply doesn't like Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle. Therefore he doesn't hang out with them as much. Why would it be kept out of book five that he could see Thestrals (If the Mystery Slytherin is Nott?) We are introduced to Nott after all and we know his father is a death eater.
If Nott is a Ravenclaw, then there are two boys who would probably be left in Slytherin that we do not know for certain of their names.
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 8:29 am (#312 of 491)
Back in business
Exact, hopping hessien, that's why I didn't rule out Nott to be a Slytherin, but as I reread my post, I realize that I forgot to write it down. Thanks to add the part that was missing in my post ^_^ .
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Joost! - Jan 27, 2004 8:35 am (#313 of 491)
Second line of information
Actually, I think Nott NOT being a Slytherin is the perfect explanation for Harry not knowing Nott's name. I find it very unlikely that you don't know someone's name after five years of classes together. But then again, Harry didn't seem to know the name of the Mystery Slytherin...
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 10:51 am (#314 of 491)
Back in business
Harry didn't know Nott's name, but I did know Corner, Goldstein and Boot's names, even if they are in Ravenclaw.
Here's the quote : "[...], three Ravenclaw boys [Harry] was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny, closely followed by a tall skinny blond boy with a upturned nose whom Harry recognized vaguely as being a member of the Hufflepuff Quidditch team" (UK OoP p.302)
Notice that Harry didn't knew Zacharias's name, even if he was with him in Herbology and Quidditch! But he at least knew him to be a Hufflepuff.
So, If Nott is in Ravenclaw, he could be a low profile one and Bott's gang some pretty well know Ravenclaw.
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Anna L. Black - Jan 27, 2004 11:28 am (#315 of 491)
But there's the possibility that Zacharias wasn't in the same year with Harry... And in that case, he's not with him in Herbology, and it's logical that he doesn't know who he is.
But it's still weird that he didn't know the Mystery Slytherin's name. Actually, maybe he did, but just didn't think of him too much, so he didn't even refer to him by his name... And maybe I'm just babbling
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Mare - Jan 27, 2004 11:41 am (#316 of 491)
But there's the possibility that Zacharias wasn't in the same year with Harry...
Thank you Anna, that's just want I wanted to say. There is a logic solution for all our problems, we just tend to look too far some times.
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 10:39 pm (#317 of 491)
Back in business
You're perfectly right Anna, there's as much proof for Zacharias to be in Harry's year as for Nott to be in slytherin ^_^ .
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fidelio - Jan 28, 2004 8:06 am (#318 of 491)
Imagine how awkward it must be for someone who is in Slytherin and doesn't like Draco and his crowd, including Pansy Parkinson, very much. This isn't to say that Nott is a Slytherin, or that he does or doesn't like the Malfoy crowd. But just consider how awkward it would be, in that gang of conniving opportunists.
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Hem Hem - Jan 28, 2004 10:09 pm (#319 of 491)
I agree that a non-conformist Slytherin would be pretty hard. But then again, the "stringy" boy (regardless of if he's Nott or not) has never taunted Harry...Harry doesn't know his name. So even if Nott isn't a Slytherin, there's still characters running around with a lot of explaining to do.
Why not consider Nott a Slytherin?
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Neville Longbottom - Jan 28, 2004 10:58 pm (#320 of 491)
But Harry didn't know Susan Bones name. And she is with him in Herbology. And whoever the Thestral boy is, Harry doesn't know his name, although he has classes with him for years.
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Peregrine - Jan 29, 2004 9:21 am (#321 of 491)
For the sake of our sanities, I hope Harry starts paying better attention to the people around him next year.
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Devika - Jan 29, 2004 10:12 am (#322 of 491)
Amen!
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Choices - Jan 29, 2004 6:34 pm (#323 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can sympathize.....I'm not good with names either. :-(
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Warty Harris - Feb 1, 2004 10:26 am (#324 of 491)
By the way Madame Librarian no mention of Moon has been made since PS/SS, but I suspect Moon is a girl named Lilith. The program Harry and Me showed a book with a list of everyone in Harry's year. I thought it showed Moon's first name to be Lily, but I do not know for certain. It is just a guess.
There are myths and stories about the Lilith Moon. It is connected to Motherhood somehow. I will try to find the link.
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Warty Harris - Feb 1, 2004 12:14 pm (#325 of 491)
aahhh ignore all that. I looked it up on the internet. It is very interesting reading, but not really for a family forum like this one.
If I had to take a guess, Lilith Moon would be a Slytherin, but one never knows. The Lilith Moon is suppose to be another celestial body that orbits the earth. It is an ancient name, and has its origins in Babylonia. Lilith is from Hebrew/Layla in Arabic.
Probably not a major character in Harry Potter, but interesting. Characters sometimes switch names and houses from the Harry and Me list, but I thought I would mention it.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 1, 2004 3:28 pm (#326 of 491)
Hmmm...Lilith is the character in the alternate version of Genesis--the one that's not about Adam and Eve. Have to check what it's about and what version of the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) it's in. Curious, too, that Layla (pronounced Lie-la) means "night" in Hebrew.
Lilith, as I recall, was a bit of a dodgy character--strong, earth-mother type, but some nasty aspects, too. I'll check.
Ciao. Barb
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Maollelujah - Feb 3, 2004 12:57 am (#327 of 491)
You know, it is too bad the books aren't written from Hermione's perspective, because if it was we would know the answer to this question and a lot more.
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Peregrine - Feb 3, 2004 12:44 pm (#328 of 491)
I think Lilith was a succubus or a harpie or something evil-esque (argh, I can picture it just perfectly in a book I have sitting at home). At any rate, I'd agree, Barb, she is a bit dodgy. Perfect for a Slytherin.
Edited to add: If they were from Hermion's perspective, we'd have nothing left to debate about. At least Harry's self-absorbedness leaves us with something to do.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 3, 2004 4:05 pm (#329 of 491)
OK, I dug through what books I had around--my Reform Jewish Torah Commentary (Hebrew Bible) and some books written by scholars who give some modern interpretations on same (hey, kind of like what we do with HP). In a book called The Five Books of Miriam: a Woman's Commentary on the Bible, Ellen Frankel tells us about Lilith:
(I'm paraphrasing.) Apparently there are two creation stories, not two whole different versions, just that God creates human beings twice. In the version that nobody seems to use now, God creates one androgynous being; then a man followed by a woman (Adam and Eve).
The ancient scholars said what it really means is that Adam had two wives. The first, Lilith, was created at the same time as he was and demanded equality. Adam refused so she left the Garden. God sent three angels, Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, to fetch her back, but they failed to persuade her to return. She stubbornly refused unless her terms were met. Furious, the angels cursed her for her impudence, sentencing to death each day one hundred of her demon children (where that many children came from is not explained, but it appears that at least for a while she and Adam got along pretty well). She countered by vowing to prey henceforth upon women in labor and their babies. Women for generations afterward would wear amulets bearing the angels' names to ward off the dangers of childbirth. Adam's second wife, Eve of the apple fame, is the one who is featured in the rest of the creation/Garden of Eden story.
Frankel doesn't say who exactly that androgynous being was, but I guess that was Adam/Lilith and he/she became separate entities at some point. It's all very vague. Reminds of the "In essence divided" debate.
The modern overlay is that Lilith got a raw deal. I believe in many feminist philosophies, she is hailed as less a troublemaker, more a very forward-thinking woman. I know around this area, there is something called the Lilith Fair every summer, which is a combination art fair/rock concert/folk fest that features women artists and performers.
Well, we're prepared for any character that shows up with the name Lilith, I guess.
Ciao. Barb
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Peregrine - Feb 4, 2004 9:43 pm (#330 of 491)
To add to what Barb found:
From ‘Brewster’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable’
Lilith. A night monster and vampire, probably of Babylonian origin, said to haunt wilderness in stormy weather and to be specially dangerous to children. The name is from a Semitic root meaning ‘night’, which was the special time of this demon’s activities. In rabbinical writings, she is supposed to have been the first wife of Adam. She is referred to in Isaiah 34:14 as the ‘screech-owl’ in the Authorized Version, as the ‘night-monster’ in the Revised Version and as Lamia in the Vulgate. A superstitious cult of Lilith persisted among certain Jews until the 7th century.
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Sarah Shrub - Feb 9, 2004 5:12 am (#331 of 491)
It could have been Blaise Zabini, he was sorted into Slytherin and he is in the same year as Harry (CS).
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:15 am (#332 of 491)
Second line of information
You refer to CoS, Sarah, but from what I remember Blaise is only mentioned in PS/SS. Do you have a quote on that?
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Sarah Shrub - Feb 9, 2004 5:20 am (#333 of 491)
Sorry, I meant SS/PS of course.
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:21 am (#334 of 491)
Second line of information
I thought so, sorry to sound like a know-it-all...
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Tomoé - Feb 17, 2004 10:27 am (#335 of 491)
Back in business
Edited by megfox Feb 19, 2004 4:39 pm
On the Conelius Fudge thread, Sharker11 introduced a very interesting essay about politic in Wizarding World. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The interesting part is about networks among Death Eater prior to their enlistment with Voldemort. According to this essay, Malfoy Sr. is the "patron" of one of those networks while Crabbe and Goyle Sr. are his subordinates. Therefore, Crabbe and Goyle Jr. are Malfoy Jr. subordinates, because it's important to stand together within the "famiglia". Notice that Draco, Vincent and Gregory seem to already know each other as we first see the three of them in the Hogwarts Express, Crabbe and Goyle already acting as Malfoy's bodyguard, not exactly the kind of habit you take in 5 minutes.
So, while the Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle family are linked in a network inside the DE network, the Nott family could have been linked to another network. Theodore Nott could had barely or even don't know at all who Draco, Vincent and Gregory were as he entered Hogwarts. Was he sorted in Slytherin, he could have learn, from Crabbe or Goyle, that the three of them were Death Eaters's son. Was he sorted in Ravenclaw, he could have learn it from his father.
What's your thought about this theory?
Tomoe, since you moved this post, I deleted our conversation on "Right/Wrong Predictions". - Meg
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Tomoé - Mar 4, 2004 1:12 pm (#336 of 491)
Back in business
J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004
Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat!
We now know there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year, there should be 10 Slytherins as well, because of the broomsticks and cauldrons. Also, the theory of 10 students per House, 5 boys and 5 girls, is getting almost 100% certain. Since we already know 5 Ravenclaw boys, Theodore should be in Slytherin or Hufflepuff, and as Harry doesn't remember him to be in his Herbology classes, Slytherin is more likely.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 4, 2004 4:40 pm (#337 of 491)
But then, he also doesn't remember him as part of his Care of Magical Creatures or Potions class.
And, I may have forgotten someone, but who are the five Ravenclaw boys out of Harry's year we know? I only remember three, Anthony, Terry and Michael.
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Tomoé - Mar 4, 2004 5:19 pm (#338 of 491)
Back in business
What I was trying to say in my last post was that the odds for Nott to be in the Slytherin have increase, but we still don't know for sure. As I reread it, I realize that that's not as clear as it should have been, sorry guys.
If Theo is a low profile Slytherin and don't hang around with Draco and cronies, Harry could have not notice him as he don't talk with Slytherin folk, don't team up with them, ignore them as long as they don't look for troubles with Gryffindors.
For the Ravenclaw boys, we have Anthony, Terry and Michael as you said, but we also have Stephen Cornfoot and Kevin Entwhistle from both JKR notebook and the movie list, less canon that the three others, but canon nevertheless. Of course, Kevin and Stephen can show up in Hufflepuff in book 6, as Anthony and Michael should have been in Hufflepuff but were presented as Ravenclaws in OoP.
In conclusion, there is still hope for the partisans of Theo is the Mystery Slytherin and we know for sure that there 10 Slytherins in the thestral seer's year.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 4, 2004 5:35 pm (#339 of 491)
Don't misunderstand me. I am a supporter of the "Theodore Nott is the mysterious Slytherin theory". And I have close to no doubts, that he is a Slytherin. I mostly was wondering about who the three other Ravenclaws are.
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Warty Harris - Mar 5, 2004 11:37 pm (#340 of 491)
I think that there are 20 people in Care of Magical Creatures. Ten from Gryffindor and ten from Slytherin. I also think that there are ten boys and ten girls. I think that the boys in the class are Harry Potter, Ronald Weasley, Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan, Neville Longbottom, Draco Malfoy, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Theodore Nott and Blaise Zabini.
This means that one of the last two is the Mystery Slytherin.
The ten girls in the class are Hermione Granger, Lavender Brown, Parvati Patil, Daphne Greengrass, Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bullstrode, Tracy Davis, one unnamed Slytherin girl and two unnamed Gryffindor girls.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 6, 2004 1:10 pm (#341 of 491)
Let it snow!
Tomoe: Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat!
We now know there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year, there should be 10 Slytherins as well, because of the broomsticks and cauldrons. Also, the theory of 10 students per House, 5 boys and 5 girls, is getting almost 100% certain.
I don't know about that, she understands what the question is asking, okay, but maybe she was going to say "let me get my notebook, no, see here, there are twelve people in Slytherin", we just don't know because she never found her notebook and confirmed that there are definately two more Gryffindors. I agree that there are 20 cauldrons, etc. when you put Gryffindor and Slytherin and Gryffindor and Hufflepuff together, but we don't know that all the cauldrons are used in each case or that they are equally distributed between the houses 10 per house....
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Tomoé - Mar 9, 2004 4:39 am (#342 of 491)
Back in business
I changed my mind, JKR didn't have her notebook at hand and seemed confused with the question, so I'll go back to my former position, there's 3 Gryffindor girls.
Warty Harris, I never read Finnigan being mentioned in the CoMC classes and that guy is always the first to open it. So, even if CoMC seems to be quite popular among the Gryffindors, as Divination, Seamus could have taken something else instead like Ancient Runes (he couldn't take Arythmancy or Muggle Studies because it conflicts with Divination classes or OWL). The seven other Gryffindors are duly named in the CoMC classes, but we just don't know how popular was CoMC among Slytherins. I myself bet Draco took the subject only because Crabbe and Goyle both took it, they wanted something more concrete than Arythmancy and Draco didn't want to be alone.
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Choices - Mar 9, 2004 11:01 am (#343 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Do we know for sure that all the first year students had to take flying? Yes, there were twenty brooms, but maybe some of the Slytherins or Gryffindors didn't take that class - they may have known how to fly already or maybe were afraid of flying and didn't sign up for that class.
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Warty Harris - Mar 9, 2004 11:39 pm (#344 of 491)
Tomoe, you are right. I just assumed that Finnigan was in CoMC but he may not have taken the class. I would think that Potions and flying were mandatory. Flying may have just been a one time thing so you can get certified ...or something to that effect.
There may have been 20 broomsticks because as S.E. Jones said (not an exact qoute) there are 12 Slytherin and 8 Gryffindor.....we just do not know. JKR has not written these characters into the book yet.
We have put more thought into it than she has!!
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scully jones - Mar 11, 2004 2:23 pm (#345 of 491)
yeah right
Well, in our early years in school, P.E. (physical education) was required. But in later years, it was optional.
Maybe the first few flying lessons were required, but advanced flying would be a separate optional class?
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Warty Harris - Mar 11, 2004 11:05 pm (#346 of 491)
I could see a few people taking a class like advanced flying. Oliver Wood and Katie Bell are two people I could see taking the class. I would think Harry would take it as well though. He is particularly good at it. I think we would have heard about advanced flying if it were a class.
It is like a driving lesson. You really only need to learn once....at least for most people
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Choices - Mar 12, 2004 10:29 am (#347 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
The students (especially Harry, Ron and Hermione)quite frequently discuss their classes and we even go to the classes with them, so if there was an Advance Flying Class I think we would have heard mention of it by now.
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 12:51 pm (#348 of 491)
Back in business
I'm not even sure if there was more that one lesson, just to make sure everyone get the basis, like a special lesson on what to so in case of fire I'm sure we all had in school.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2004 1:32 pm (#349 of 491)
I agree - We had Freshman Orientation when we went to college.
I think it also let the Muggle kids catch up. Since Harry was wisked away by Professor McGonagall, we really don't know how the rest of the class went.
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 3:48 pm (#350 of 491)
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What I was thinking when I wrote my last post? You should have read : "I'm not even sure if there was more that one lesson, just to make sure everyone get the basis, like a special lesson on what to do in case of fire. I'm sure we all had that kind of special classes back in school."
Right haymoni, the Muggle kids need to catch up, even Malfoy was doing wrong for years, and the broomstick is one of the most popular way to travel, the future witches and wizards must know how to drive a broom correctly.
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Second line of information
I agree, Nott is most likely a Slytherin. But if he's not, Zabini is the only candidate to be the Mystery Slytherin and Blaise is a boys name.
Nice catch, Tomoe!
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Mare - Jan 22, 2004 5:07 am (#302 of 491)
And I start to believe he isn't, based on that post Kip. He has so much in common with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG), with their daddies being DE's, and they are all in the same year. And Harry never noticed him before? He never participated in any of the jokes Malfoy played on Harry? This is the first time Nott is seen with those three?
He seems so close with them in that scene, your right, but if he is so close, why not in books 1-4? Where was he then? In another house perhaps?
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Kathryn Pottinger - Jan 22, 2004 5:29 am (#303 of 491)
I think that the fact that he hasn't been mentioned before coupled with the way he was introduced suggests that he will come up in book six. What I mean is, reading the paragraph that Kip quoted in isolation like that makes it stand out that the line:
"...they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott.."
Is completely unnecessary. And we all no JK Rowling doesn't do anything without reason.
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Joost! - Jan 22, 2004 5:40 am (#304 of 491)
Second line of information
I agree with you, Kathryn. Both Theodore Nott and the boy who could see Thestrals will come up in the last books.
The question is, of course; are they the same person?
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Madame Librarian - Jan 22, 2004 8:50 am (#305 of 491)
Kip posted: There weren't many people left now. "Moon" "Nott" "Parkinson" then a pair of twin girls, "Patil" and "Patil" then "Perks, Sally-Anne" and then, at last -- "Potter, Harry!"
Who, for heaven's sake, is this Moon?!? The Lex just lists the name (no first name) and the years 91-98 (for attending Hogwarts).
It's an odd name fraught with meaning for careful readers. I don't think JKR used it arbitrarily. Then again is it just a teaser?
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Jan 22, 2004 10:09 am (#306 of 491)
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And the only other quote about Nott is : "T. Nott | 22 January (QtA 1st p.)" That's doesn't help at all.
I was hoping you guys to tell me " Yeah, he is a Slytherin on the movie list." or something. I don't have the DVD yet, they are corrupting my mental images of the characters ^_^ .
So, which house, I don't think he could be in Gryffindor, Parvati and Lavander had been mentioned at least once in the first two books, even if they took no active part in the plot. And Harry should have been with Theodore for 5 years, he wouldn't have to ask Hermione who is he.
I don't think he's in Hufflepuff either, Harry have 5 years of Herbology with them, and even if he don't know all their names, he would remember him for a Hufflepuff, like he didn't know Susan Bones's name but know her for a Hufflepuff.
That leave Slytherin and Ravenclaw.
If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters. (OoP p.514 bold is mine, of course)
Are those they refer to Nott as well or only to the 3 others. If not, Theo could be quietly reading the article the whole scene. And if Theo is in Ravenclaw, couldn't he find a other way to read the interview with Harry? Except if his follow Ravenclaws didn't dare to lent him a copy, his father being named as a DE and Nott finally ask Malfoy's gang.
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Emily - Jan 22, 2004 1:36 pm (#307 of 491)
I thought that Gryffindor took CoMC with the Slytherins. If they do, then he can only be a Slytherin. I mean, even Harry could fail to notice someone who had shared his dormitory and classes for 5 years.
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Tomoé - Jan 22, 2004 2:36 pm (#308 of 491)
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Yes, Gryffindor and Slytherin took three years of CoMC together, but that could be relevant only if weedy Theodore Nott is the stringy Mystery Slytherin. Weedy and stringy are not exactly antonymous, but not exactly close either.
But he's still one of the two must likely candidate, though. One we are not sure he's a boy and one we are not sure is a Slytherin.
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hopping hessian - Jan 26, 2004 7:24 am (#309 of 491)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Nott could have been in Slytherin and in classes with Harry without Harry knowing his name. Whenever Slytherins tormented him in 1-4, JKR would name a couple specific people, but not everyone, they were just described as a gang of Slytherins. And if Nott never spoke-up in class or was rarely called on, Harry, who isn't always observant, could have missed his name.
The other option is that he was in a different house, but brought together with Malfoy because their fathers were all in the same boat.
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Peregrine - Jan 26, 2004 11:58 am (#310 of 491)
I think it’s likely that Draco and Theodore Nott didn’t know about each other’s fathers. Even if they were in the same house and same year, that doesn’t mean that they would broadcast the fact that their father’s were DEs. Malfoy does with Crabbe and Goyle presumably because their fathers all know each other but Nott might not have been aware until Harry outed everyone.
I also like Tomoe’s idea that Nott was just borrowing Malfoy’s copy of the story and wasn’t really with them in the library.
Heck, maybe the mystery Slytherin is Mark Evans’ older brother (who may or may not exist and who may or may not be related to Harry) and when Mark goes to Hogwarts (if he actually is a wizard) he’ll get sorted into Gryffindor and he and his older brother will unite the houses. It could happen, right?
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Warty Harris - Jan 26, 2004 9:12 pm (#311 of 491)
I to assumed that Nott was a Slytherin, but there is nothing to really 100% back that up. It is possible that Nott simply doesn't like Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle. Therefore he doesn't hang out with them as much. Why would it be kept out of book five that he could see Thestrals (If the Mystery Slytherin is Nott?) We are introduced to Nott after all and we know his father is a death eater.
If Nott is a Ravenclaw, then there are two boys who would probably be left in Slytherin that we do not know for certain of their names.
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 8:29 am (#312 of 491)
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Exact, hopping hessien, that's why I didn't rule out Nott to be a Slytherin, but as I reread my post, I realize that I forgot to write it down. Thanks to add the part that was missing in my post ^_^ .
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Joost! - Jan 27, 2004 8:35 am (#313 of 491)
Second line of information
Actually, I think Nott NOT being a Slytherin is the perfect explanation for Harry not knowing Nott's name. I find it very unlikely that you don't know someone's name after five years of classes together. But then again, Harry didn't seem to know the name of the Mystery Slytherin...
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 10:51 am (#314 of 491)
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Harry didn't know Nott's name, but I did know Corner, Goldstein and Boot's names, even if they are in Ravenclaw.
Here's the quote : "[...], three Ravenclaw boys [Harry] was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny, closely followed by a tall skinny blond boy with a upturned nose whom Harry recognized vaguely as being a member of the Hufflepuff Quidditch team" (UK OoP p.302)
Notice that Harry didn't knew Zacharias's name, even if he was with him in Herbology and Quidditch! But he at least knew him to be a Hufflepuff.
So, If Nott is in Ravenclaw, he could be a low profile one and Bott's gang some pretty well know Ravenclaw.
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Anna L. Black - Jan 27, 2004 11:28 am (#315 of 491)
But there's the possibility that Zacharias wasn't in the same year with Harry... And in that case, he's not with him in Herbology, and it's logical that he doesn't know who he is.
But it's still weird that he didn't know the Mystery Slytherin's name. Actually, maybe he did, but just didn't think of him too much, so he didn't even refer to him by his name... And maybe I'm just babbling
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Mare - Jan 27, 2004 11:41 am (#316 of 491)
But there's the possibility that Zacharias wasn't in the same year with Harry...
Thank you Anna, that's just want I wanted to say. There is a logic solution for all our problems, we just tend to look too far some times.
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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2004 10:39 pm (#317 of 491)
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You're perfectly right Anna, there's as much proof for Zacharias to be in Harry's year as for Nott to be in slytherin ^_^ .
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fidelio - Jan 28, 2004 8:06 am (#318 of 491)
Imagine how awkward it must be for someone who is in Slytherin and doesn't like Draco and his crowd, including Pansy Parkinson, very much. This isn't to say that Nott is a Slytherin, or that he does or doesn't like the Malfoy crowd. But just consider how awkward it would be, in that gang of conniving opportunists.
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Hem Hem - Jan 28, 2004 10:09 pm (#319 of 491)
I agree that a non-conformist Slytherin would be pretty hard. But then again, the "stringy" boy (regardless of if he's Nott or not) has never taunted Harry...Harry doesn't know his name. So even if Nott isn't a Slytherin, there's still characters running around with a lot of explaining to do.
Why not consider Nott a Slytherin?
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Neville Longbottom - Jan 28, 2004 10:58 pm (#320 of 491)
But Harry didn't know Susan Bones name. And she is with him in Herbology. And whoever the Thestral boy is, Harry doesn't know his name, although he has classes with him for years.
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Peregrine - Jan 29, 2004 9:21 am (#321 of 491)
For the sake of our sanities, I hope Harry starts paying better attention to the people around him next year.
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Devika - Jan 29, 2004 10:12 am (#322 of 491)
Amen!
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Choices - Jan 29, 2004 6:34 pm (#323 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can sympathize.....I'm not good with names either. :-(
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Warty Harris - Feb 1, 2004 10:26 am (#324 of 491)
By the way Madame Librarian no mention of Moon has been made since PS/SS, but I suspect Moon is a girl named Lilith. The program Harry and Me showed a book with a list of everyone in Harry's year. I thought it showed Moon's first name to be Lily, but I do not know for certain. It is just a guess.
There are myths and stories about the Lilith Moon. It is connected to Motherhood somehow. I will try to find the link.
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Warty Harris - Feb 1, 2004 12:14 pm (#325 of 491)
aahhh ignore all that. I looked it up on the internet. It is very interesting reading, but not really for a family forum like this one.
If I had to take a guess, Lilith Moon would be a Slytherin, but one never knows. The Lilith Moon is suppose to be another celestial body that orbits the earth. It is an ancient name, and has its origins in Babylonia. Lilith is from Hebrew/Layla in Arabic.
Probably not a major character in Harry Potter, but interesting. Characters sometimes switch names and houses from the Harry and Me list, but I thought I would mention it.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 1, 2004 3:28 pm (#326 of 491)
Hmmm...Lilith is the character in the alternate version of Genesis--the one that's not about Adam and Eve. Have to check what it's about and what version of the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) it's in. Curious, too, that Layla (pronounced Lie-la) means "night" in Hebrew.
Lilith, as I recall, was a bit of a dodgy character--strong, earth-mother type, but some nasty aspects, too. I'll check.
Ciao. Barb
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Maollelujah - Feb 3, 2004 12:57 am (#327 of 491)
You know, it is too bad the books aren't written from Hermione's perspective, because if it was we would know the answer to this question and a lot more.
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Peregrine - Feb 3, 2004 12:44 pm (#328 of 491)
I think Lilith was a succubus or a harpie or something evil-esque (argh, I can picture it just perfectly in a book I have sitting at home). At any rate, I'd agree, Barb, she is a bit dodgy. Perfect for a Slytherin.
Edited to add: If they were from Hermion's perspective, we'd have nothing left to debate about. At least Harry's self-absorbedness leaves us with something to do.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 3, 2004 4:05 pm (#329 of 491)
OK, I dug through what books I had around--my Reform Jewish Torah Commentary (Hebrew Bible) and some books written by scholars who give some modern interpretations on same (hey, kind of like what we do with HP). In a book called The Five Books of Miriam: a Woman's Commentary on the Bible, Ellen Frankel tells us about Lilith:
(I'm paraphrasing.) Apparently there are two creation stories, not two whole different versions, just that God creates human beings twice. In the version that nobody seems to use now, God creates one androgynous being; then a man followed by a woman (Adam and Eve).
The ancient scholars said what it really means is that Adam had two wives. The first, Lilith, was created at the same time as he was and demanded equality. Adam refused so she left the Garden. God sent three angels, Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, to fetch her back, but they failed to persuade her to return. She stubbornly refused unless her terms were met. Furious, the angels cursed her for her impudence, sentencing to death each day one hundred of her demon children (where that many children came from is not explained, but it appears that at least for a while she and Adam got along pretty well). She countered by vowing to prey henceforth upon women in labor and their babies. Women for generations afterward would wear amulets bearing the angels' names to ward off the dangers of childbirth. Adam's second wife, Eve of the apple fame, is the one who is featured in the rest of the creation/Garden of Eden story.
Frankel doesn't say who exactly that androgynous being was, but I guess that was Adam/Lilith and he/she became separate entities at some point. It's all very vague. Reminds of the "In essence divided" debate.
The modern overlay is that Lilith got a raw deal. I believe in many feminist philosophies, she is hailed as less a troublemaker, more a very forward-thinking woman. I know around this area, there is something called the Lilith Fair every summer, which is a combination art fair/rock concert/folk fest that features women artists and performers.
Well, we're prepared for any character that shows up with the name Lilith, I guess.
Ciao. Barb
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Peregrine - Feb 4, 2004 9:43 pm (#330 of 491)
To add to what Barb found:
From ‘Brewster’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable’
Lilith. A night monster and vampire, probably of Babylonian origin, said to haunt wilderness in stormy weather and to be specially dangerous to children. The name is from a Semitic root meaning ‘night’, which was the special time of this demon’s activities. In rabbinical writings, she is supposed to have been the first wife of Adam. She is referred to in Isaiah 34:14 as the ‘screech-owl’ in the Authorized Version, as the ‘night-monster’ in the Revised Version and as Lamia in the Vulgate. A superstitious cult of Lilith persisted among certain Jews until the 7th century.
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Sarah Shrub - Feb 9, 2004 5:12 am (#331 of 491)
It could have been Blaise Zabini, he was sorted into Slytherin and he is in the same year as Harry (CS).
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:15 am (#332 of 491)
Second line of information
You refer to CoS, Sarah, but from what I remember Blaise is only mentioned in PS/SS. Do you have a quote on that?
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Sarah Shrub - Feb 9, 2004 5:20 am (#333 of 491)
Sorry, I meant SS/PS of course.
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:21 am (#334 of 491)
Second line of information
I thought so, sorry to sound like a know-it-all...
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Tomoé - Feb 17, 2004 10:27 am (#335 of 491)
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Edited by megfox Feb 19, 2004 4:39 pm
On the Conelius Fudge thread, Sharker11 introduced a very interesting essay about politic in Wizarding World. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The interesting part is about networks among Death Eater prior to their enlistment with Voldemort. According to this essay, Malfoy Sr. is the "patron" of one of those networks while Crabbe and Goyle Sr. are his subordinates. Therefore, Crabbe and Goyle Jr. are Malfoy Jr. subordinates, because it's important to stand together within the "famiglia". Notice that Draco, Vincent and Gregory seem to already know each other as we first see the three of them in the Hogwarts Express, Crabbe and Goyle already acting as Malfoy's bodyguard, not exactly the kind of habit you take in 5 minutes.
So, while the Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle family are linked in a network inside the DE network, the Nott family could have been linked to another network. Theodore Nott could had barely or even don't know at all who Draco, Vincent and Gregory were as he entered Hogwarts. Was he sorted in Slytherin, he could have learn, from Crabbe or Goyle, that the three of them were Death Eaters's son. Was he sorted in Ravenclaw, he could have learn it from his father.
What's your thought about this theory?
Tomoe, since you moved this post, I deleted our conversation on "Right/Wrong Predictions". - Meg
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Tomoé - Mar 4, 2004 1:12 pm (#336 of 491)
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J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004
Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat!
We now know there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year, there should be 10 Slytherins as well, because of the broomsticks and cauldrons. Also, the theory of 10 students per House, 5 boys and 5 girls, is getting almost 100% certain. Since we already know 5 Ravenclaw boys, Theodore should be in Slytherin or Hufflepuff, and as Harry doesn't remember him to be in his Herbology classes, Slytherin is more likely.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 4, 2004 4:40 pm (#337 of 491)
But then, he also doesn't remember him as part of his Care of Magical Creatures or Potions class.
And, I may have forgotten someone, but who are the five Ravenclaw boys out of Harry's year we know? I only remember three, Anthony, Terry and Michael.
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Tomoé - Mar 4, 2004 5:19 pm (#338 of 491)
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What I was trying to say in my last post was that the odds for Nott to be in the Slytherin have increase, but we still don't know for sure. As I reread it, I realize that that's not as clear as it should have been, sorry guys.
If Theo is a low profile Slytherin and don't hang around with Draco and cronies, Harry could have not notice him as he don't talk with Slytherin folk, don't team up with them, ignore them as long as they don't look for troubles with Gryffindors.
For the Ravenclaw boys, we have Anthony, Terry and Michael as you said, but we also have Stephen Cornfoot and Kevin Entwhistle from both JKR notebook and the movie list, less canon that the three others, but canon nevertheless. Of course, Kevin and Stephen can show up in Hufflepuff in book 6, as Anthony and Michael should have been in Hufflepuff but were presented as Ravenclaws in OoP.
In conclusion, there is still hope for the partisans of Theo is the Mystery Slytherin and we know for sure that there 10 Slytherins in the thestral seer's year.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 4, 2004 5:35 pm (#339 of 491)
Don't misunderstand me. I am a supporter of the "Theodore Nott is the mysterious Slytherin theory". And I have close to no doubts, that he is a Slytherin. I mostly was wondering about who the three other Ravenclaws are.
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Warty Harris - Mar 5, 2004 11:37 pm (#340 of 491)
I think that there are 20 people in Care of Magical Creatures. Ten from Gryffindor and ten from Slytherin. I also think that there are ten boys and ten girls. I think that the boys in the class are Harry Potter, Ronald Weasley, Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan, Neville Longbottom, Draco Malfoy, Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Theodore Nott and Blaise Zabini.
This means that one of the last two is the Mystery Slytherin.
The ten girls in the class are Hermione Granger, Lavender Brown, Parvati Patil, Daphne Greengrass, Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bullstrode, Tracy Davis, one unnamed Slytherin girl and two unnamed Gryffindor girls.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 6, 2004 1:10 pm (#341 of 491)
Let it snow!
Tomoe: Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat!
We now know there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year, there should be 10 Slytherins as well, because of the broomsticks and cauldrons. Also, the theory of 10 students per House, 5 boys and 5 girls, is getting almost 100% certain.
I don't know about that, she understands what the question is asking, okay, but maybe she was going to say "let me get my notebook, no, see here, there are twelve people in Slytherin", we just don't know because she never found her notebook and confirmed that there are definately two more Gryffindors. I agree that there are 20 cauldrons, etc. when you put Gryffindor and Slytherin and Gryffindor and Hufflepuff together, but we don't know that all the cauldrons are used in each case or that they are equally distributed between the houses 10 per house....
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Tomoé - Mar 9, 2004 4:39 am (#342 of 491)
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I changed my mind, JKR didn't have her notebook at hand and seemed confused with the question, so I'll go back to my former position, there's 3 Gryffindor girls.
Warty Harris, I never read Finnigan being mentioned in the CoMC classes and that guy is always the first to open it. So, even if CoMC seems to be quite popular among the Gryffindors, as Divination, Seamus could have taken something else instead like Ancient Runes (he couldn't take Arythmancy or Muggle Studies because it conflicts with Divination classes or OWL). The seven other Gryffindors are duly named in the CoMC classes, but we just don't know how popular was CoMC among Slytherins. I myself bet Draco took the subject only because Crabbe and Goyle both took it, they wanted something more concrete than Arythmancy and Draco didn't want to be alone.
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Choices - Mar 9, 2004 11:01 am (#343 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Do we know for sure that all the first year students had to take flying? Yes, there were twenty brooms, but maybe some of the Slytherins or Gryffindors didn't take that class - they may have known how to fly already or maybe were afraid of flying and didn't sign up for that class.
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Warty Harris - Mar 9, 2004 11:39 pm (#344 of 491)
Tomoe, you are right. I just assumed that Finnigan was in CoMC but he may not have taken the class. I would think that Potions and flying were mandatory. Flying may have just been a one time thing so you can get certified ...or something to that effect.
There may have been 20 broomsticks because as S.E. Jones said (not an exact qoute) there are 12 Slytherin and 8 Gryffindor.....we just do not know. JKR has not written these characters into the book yet.
We have put more thought into it than she has!!
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scully jones - Mar 11, 2004 2:23 pm (#345 of 491)
yeah right
Well, in our early years in school, P.E. (physical education) was required. But in later years, it was optional.
Maybe the first few flying lessons were required, but advanced flying would be a separate optional class?
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Warty Harris - Mar 11, 2004 11:05 pm (#346 of 491)
I could see a few people taking a class like advanced flying. Oliver Wood and Katie Bell are two people I could see taking the class. I would think Harry would take it as well though. He is particularly good at it. I think we would have heard about advanced flying if it were a class.
It is like a driving lesson. You really only need to learn once....at least for most people
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Choices - Mar 12, 2004 10:29 am (#347 of 491)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
The students (especially Harry, Ron and Hermione)quite frequently discuss their classes and we even go to the classes with them, so if there was an Advance Flying Class I think we would have heard mention of it by now.
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 12:51 pm (#348 of 491)
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I'm not even sure if there was more that one lesson, just to make sure everyone get the basis, like a special lesson on what to so in case of fire I'm sure we all had in school.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2004 1:32 pm (#349 of 491)
I agree - We had Freshman Orientation when we went to college.
I think it also let the Muggle kids catch up. Since Harry was wisked away by Professor McGonagall, we really don't know how the rest of the class went.
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 3:48 pm (#350 of 491)
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What I was thinking when I wrote my last post? You should have read : "I'm not even sure if there was more that one lesson, just to make sure everyone get the basis, like a special lesson on what to do in case of fire. I'm sure we all had that kind of special classes back in school."
Right haymoni, the Muggle kids need to catch up, even Malfoy was doing wrong for years, and the broomstick is one of the most popular way to travel, the future witches and wizards must know how to drive a broom correctly.
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 351 to 400)
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Peregrine - Mar 14, 2004 6:29 pm (#351 of 491)
Well Harry signed up for everything Ron signed up for, so if Ron didn't want to take advanced flying then Harry wouldn't either. Or he didn't think he needed the class, being a natural at it. I don't really buy either of those, but Madam Hooch has to have something else to do at this school other than teach one flying class and ref a few Quidditch matches.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 18, 2004 12:55 am (#352 of 491)
Let it snow!
I just ran across this during yet another read through of OotP and I thought I'd mention it as I thought it pointed to the fact that the as yet unnamed Slytherin could see threstrals will be important later:
discussing the Care of Magical Creatures lesson with the threstrals: "I'm surprised so many people could see them", said Ron. "Three in a class ---" (OotP, ch21, pg450, US)
Why does everyone think this will be important? Any ideas?
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haymoni - Mar 18, 2004 6:27 am (#353 of 491)
You can only look at things from your perspective - Ron hasn't seen anyone "snuff it" so why should anyone else his age have been through that?
You have to actually witness a death and register its meaning to see the thestrals. Just knowing that your grandparents are dead must not be enough.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 18, 2004 2:47 pm (#354 of 491)
Let it snow!
Yes, but the line almost seems to be coming from JKR herself, as if she's telling us to mark something here....
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alexa - Mar 18, 2004 8:07 pm (#355 of 491)
I have another crazy theory. Anyone thinks that this mysterious Slytherin boy is the illegitimate son of Regulus Black? He has seen his father die, but nobody in the Black family are aware he is the last survival of the Black family. Maybe he follows his mother's surname to conceal his identity. He could be the Slytherin who aids in unifying the houses.
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Tomoé - Mar 22, 2004 1:34 pm (#356 of 491)
Back in business
Black should have been between "Abbott, Hannah" and "Bones, Susan" or he could had to do a year over again ...
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Hogs Head - Mar 23, 2004 9:12 pm (#357 of 491)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Not to infer that JKR is afraid to tackle tough subjects (like death), but somehow I doubt that the subject of legitimacy vs. illegitimacy will come up. Perhaps if there is a later series where Harry is an adult . . .?
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Tomoé - Mar 25, 2004 3:43 pm (#358 of 491)
Back in business
I was mulling over Theodore Nott those last weeks, his mentions and their context.
First mention, the sorting ceremony in PS. Let's take a closer look.
First, Abbott, Bones, Boot, Bunklehurst, Brown and Bulstrode, some of those names could be important later, but the main purpose seems to make sure the House names of the Houses sink in. They all have first names and Houses.
Justin and Seamus, one who will be important in book 2, one who will become a Gryffindor and was beside Harry in the line. They both have first names and Houses.
Hermione, because she will become a major character. First name and House, of course.
Longbottom and MacDougal, one who will become an important character and the other for whom we don't even know in which House she have been sorted. Both have their first names.
Malfoy, Moon, Nott, Parkinson, Patil, Patil, Perks and Potter, (sounds like a lawyer firm ^_^) the first and the last one are major characters. For the six others, there's no House mention and only Perks has a first name, the five other are the only ones the first names is not mentioned. Three of them will become minor characters since PoA or GoF, Parkinson and the Patils, the three others still just names.
Turpin, Weasley and Zabini, because they are the last three and one of them is a major character. They all have first names and Houses.
Second mention, in the list of the borrower of QtA.
8 of them are on their House team (Wood, Flint, Diggory, Johnson, Bell, Warrington, Weasley and Potter).
4 of them are yet to meet (Dunstar, Bundy, Dorny and Capper).
1 of them, the Fawcett girl, have been mention from time to time.
6 of them are in Harry's year (Macmillan, Boot, Nott, Bulstrode, Granger and Potter).
Wood and Flint could be there as a reminder of the old Quidditch days, Diggory as a memorial and the other Quidditch players because it would be logical that Quidditch players borrow books about Quidditch. For the 4 unknown students, it could be because the kids we know are not the only ones who borrow books from the library. Harry and Hermione because they are major Characters.
For the last five, Fawcett was mentioned three times when QtA was published, Ernie thrice beside his supporting role in CoS, Terry twice, Milli twice and Theo only once, but his last name was mention in GoF as a Death Eater name. Even I, who wasn't a Harry Potter freak back then, made the connection between the kid sorted in PS and the DE named in GoF. Those five names sound like "Hey! HP sleuths, mark those five kids, they will be important later!", like Mundugus Fletcher and Mrs Figg before OoP or Parvati and Lavander before PoA.
Nott's last mention, the longest of all, the Quibbler scene with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, where we learn is first name.
If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters. (UK OoP, p.514)
Interestingly, we don't know if Nott read the interview or just stand aside the three others. We don't know if he looked around at Harry or if he looked threatening at all. It's not clear if he's include as in the DE's son statement, Theo could be Nott's nephew or his second cousin twice removed for all we know. To cap it all, this scene happened in the library, a neutral place that we cannot associate with the Slytherin House.
Then, there's JKR's Notebook. She allowed us to see the first page, but not the second one, Nott's one. We don't know his house or his parentage.
About Nott the DE, who could be Theo's father, He was acquitted and Voldemort only asked him to do better this time, along with Crabbe and Goyle, and he was the first to fall in the Department of Mystery. We don't even know his first name.
If she had something to hide in Theodore's regard or the Nott Family, but want us to remember they exist, JKR wouldn't act differently. Twice, Theo is drown in list of names and the third time, he stay in the shadow of three "show off" characters. Is Theodore Nott a Slytherin? I doubt it. Slytherin is the obvious option as we all felt for it, maybe Theo is a lesson about birth, choices and prejudice; we don't know him, he's a DE's son, therefore he's a Slytherin. For all the above reason, I bet Theo is a Ravenclaw.
P.S. : Sorry, I wrote a novel again.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 26, 2004 9:29 am (#359 of 491)
Let it snow!
Or maybe he'll be a lesson and be a Slytherin who we don't end up hating..?
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Tomoé - Mar 26, 2004 11:23 am (#360 of 491)
Back in business
That could do too, Sarah. But I still think Nott is a Ravenclaw. ^_^
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 10:21 am (#361 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Theodore Nott is a Slytherin. The first time we see him described in OotP, he is called a "stringy Slytherin boy" (page 445, American) who was standing near Goyle. On page 583, he is called "weedy-looking" and he, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are looking angry at Harry for naming "their fathers" as death eaters.
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hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 11:35 am (#362 of 491)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
The first time we see him described in OotP, he is called a "stringy Slytherin boy" (page 445, American) who was standing near Goyle.
Does it actually say that "Nott was the stringy..."? I don't have my book with me right now.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 1:28 pm (#363 of 491)
Back in business
There's no concrete proof the stringy Slytherin Thestral seer is weedy Theodore Nott. Stringy and weedy, while not antonyms, mean not exactly the same thing. Plus, when Harry learns Nott's name, he didn't do the connection with the thestral seer.
Let's see what JKR use to do when she introduce characters Harry don't know by name.
Hannah Abbott
"A pink-faced girl with blond pigtails stumbled out of the line" (PS p.89)
"a girl with blonde pigtails" (UK CoS pp. 148)
Susan Bones :
"a Hufflepuff girl with a long plait down her back whose name Harry did not know" (UK OoP p.301)
"the girl with the long plait down her back" (UK OoP p.305)
Ernie Macmillan
"a stout boy was saying" (UK CoS pp. 148)
"the stout boy" (UK CoS pp. 148)
Zacharias Smith
"closely followed by a tall skinny blond boy with a upturned nose" (UK OoP pp.302)
"said the blond Hufflepuff player" (UK OoP pp.304)
"said the blond boy" (UK OoP pp.304)
Always the same words, even for Hannah's descriptions, written a year apart. So it'll take more than weedy and stringy to make me believe Nott can see thestral.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 2:45 pm (#364 of 491)
Back in business
I forgot to talk about the paragraph when Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG) read the interview with Nott. This is a tricky one, let me strip it apart, sentence by sentence.
"If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle."
Harry was happy because of MCG's reaction, Nott's reaction didn't matter, if he had any.
"He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott."
Here, them, their and they refer strictly to MCG, as the pronouns refer to the last sentence were Nott was absent. Therefore, MCG have their head together, Nott could be with them or not, the sentence bring no precision on that matter.
"They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe."
This one is tricky. When you read only the first part, you may understand MCG and Nott looked at Harry, but the end of the sentence give us only the reaction of MCG, no mention of Nott. Maybe he looked round, but he did nothing that draw Harry's attention.
"Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters." (UK OoP p.514)
We know "they were acting", but they refer to MCG and only them because Nott didn't act in the last sentence. So, their father refer also to the three acting boys, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.
As the paragraph end, all we can objectively conclude is that Nott's first name is Theodore and that he, once, hanged around with MCG in the library while they read an illegal interview.
The stringy unnamed Slytherin and weedy Theodore Nott, Nott the DE and Nott the student, Theo hanging around with MCG, all sons of DEs, everything to make us believe Theo is a Slytherin and the son of the DE Nott. A red herring if you ask me, in flashing neon.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 30, 2004 4:17 pm (#365 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 30, 2004 3:18 pm
Excellent analysis Tomoe. Pronouns and their antecedents can cause a great deal of problems.
There is one other interpretation. Four boys were huddled together, three behaved menacing towards Harry. We are then told that "Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters." So logically the behavior referred to might include the huddling together as well as the implied threats.
This would make all four boys' fathers Death Eaters.
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 4:21 pm (#366 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Harry named Nott, along with Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy in GoF to Cornelius Fudge as the Death Eaters present in the cemetery that night.
We can differ in opinion, but I feel certain that Therodore Nott is a Slytherin, and as such is probably NOT Harry's biggest fan by the end of OotP.
Cheers.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 8:27 pm (#367 of 491)
Back in business
Yes, Marcus, you're right about the other interpretation. However, as neither can be held true, it's safer to assume Nott wasn't included.
That's an interesting point Catherine, the DE Nott is named along with Crabbe and Goyle by both Voldemort and Harry in GoF. In OoP, he is the first to fall so we didn't have time to know him a little better.
JKR obviously want use to remember both Notts, she also want us to associate the Notts with the Malfoys, the Crabbes and the Goyles, but she don't want us to know much about both of them and that's fishy. Not that I don't believe Theodore is Nott's son, but there's no proof yet.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#368 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Tomeo, safer in the sense of never trusting Rowling unless she specifically states something. :-)
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 11:43 pm (#369 of 491)
Back in business
Exactly, I'm paranoid about it since I learn Scabbers was really James old friend who sold him out and get the blame on Sirius. ^_^
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Maollelujah - Apr 1, 2004 6:03 pm (#370 of 491)
JKR obviously want use to remember both Notts, she also want us to associate the Notts with the Malfoys, the Crabbes and the Goyles, but she don't want us to know much about both of them and that's fishy.
Not anymore fishy than not really knowing anything about Harry's parents. And for that matter anyone else in the books.
From what little we know of Nott, the best guess we can make is that he is in Slytherin. I have a feeling that he will show up in Harry's Newt-level DADA class.
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Czarina - Apr 1, 2004 6:51 pm (#371 of 491)
I think Theodore Nott is going to be a semi-important character in the later books. The two or three casual mentions of him in OoP might just be JKR's way of introducing a new character. We didn't know anything about Luna, even her existence, until the fifth book. For many of her characters, JKR just introduces them: Luna, Tonks, Myrtle, Sirius, Lupin, etc. However, she does hint about others that she introduces. We hardly knew anything about Ginny, Bill, or Charlie until CoS, PoA, and GoF. In PS, Draco goes on and on about his father, whom we do not meet until CoS. There are many examples. Simply put, Nott has been briefly introduced now -- he will show up again later.
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Warty Harris - Apr 2, 2004 8:53 am (#372 of 491)
I am starting to think the Mystery Slytherin is Nott, but I cannot get over how Hagrid was interupted right before he would have said Notts name. Why would his name be hidden there but casually brought up later on in the book with no connection? I think Harry would have remembered the other boy who could see thestrals. If he couldn't remember it was the same boy in the library then when is he going to make the connection that Nott can see thestrals?
The name of the boy is a mystery. He will probably be important in the next books. Why would Nott be brought up later in the same book (#5) and the connection not be made? If the mystery Slytherin is Nott and his father is a death eater then it could be mentioned later. Why was Nott brought later in the book and yet Harry could not make the connection at the time.
My guess is that JKR wanted to show a connection between Theodore Nott and the death eaters/slytherins AND still hide that Nott is the mystery Slytherin. Why? Telling the reader Nott is connected to the death eater Nott officially could have waited. Many readers remember the connection. Why play it up at the end of the book? Either the author felt it important to make the connection of the young Nott to the death eaters and have Harry forget for a moment that this is the same boy who could see thestrals.....or this is not the same boy who could see the thestrals.
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Czarina - Apr 2, 2004 9:28 am (#373 of 491)
I don't think the seeing thestrals was all that important for Harry in the overall book. The interplay between Umbridge and Hagrid was much more important to him. He just noticed that one of the Slytherin boys could see thestrals, or at least appeared to be able to see them. Obviously not Malfoy, Crabbe, or Goyle, who are the only Slytherin boys that he appears to know by sight and name. He probably doesn't recognize Nott. He doesn't know his name off the top of his head. Had there been no Umbridge on the scene, Harry might have tried to remember the boy's name. As such, it was a trivial matter for him.
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Warty Harris - Apr 2, 2004 9:57 am (#374 of 491)
I do think that another boy being able to see the thestrals was not the most important occurence in the chapter Czarina...but Harry's experience with the thestrals is important. Thestrals are an important creature through out the book and Harry is relieved to know other people see them and that he is not crazy.
It is somewhat trivial to everything else that is going on, and Harry may forget a face here and there. It could be he just forgot about Nott being the other boy who could see thestrals in all the flurry surrounding the release of the Quibbler article. Perhaps Nott was brought up there to show his anger at his father being named a death eater. I just think that it is unlikely that Harry would forget that this is the same boy that saw the thestrals.
Who else has been able to see the thestrals?
Luna Neville Mystery Slytherin....?
I think they all may be important.
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Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 9:07 am (#375 of 491)
Back in business
I agree with Warty, while Thestrals are not a major theme in the book, it still a important matter for Harry, encountering other persons who can see them apart him and Luna made him feel less freaky.
However, I don't think "Harry may forget a face here and there", in fact he's better with faces than names. He sorted all the people who attend the Hogsmeade meeting in the right house, even those he didn't know by name, like Zacharias and Susan.
I believe the Mystery Slytherin will be important, because Harry will be looking for someone to talk about sudden death. The members of the Order are quite nice, but they are already used to the idea that "there are things worth dying for". Neville lost his grandfather, but he likely died of old age, sickness or grieving for losing his son, he wasn't perfectly healthy one minute then lost forever before you can say "watch out!". Neville didn't follow the same mourning process than Harry will need. Luna? maybe her way to deal with death is too "business as usual" for Harry. Ron, Ginny and Hermione won't be as affected as Harry will by Sirius's death, they could get that "there are things worth dying for" faster than Harry, especially Hermione.
Who else Harry know have seen death? The mystery Slytherin. That won't be for the first part of the year, of course, but he will eventually cross the boy's path and maybe even integrate him and some of his fellow Slytherin friends in the "all houses gang".
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Czarina - Apr 3, 2004 10:17 am (#376 of 491)
"He sorted all the people who attend the Hogsmeade meeting in the right house, even those he didn't know by name, like Zacharias and Susan. "
Well, the students' robes might have some sort of marker on them that states which House the wearer is in (like in the movies -- JKR can be contaminated by the films too!). Also, Harry might make a lucky guess based on the fact that if a student is wearing a yellow-and-black scarf, he or she is probably in Hufflepuff. Such details are too insignificant to be put in the book itself. Furthermore, Harry could simply remember that Person X sits at the Hufflepuff table, plays on the Hufflepuff Quidditch team, etc., without remembering their name.
Names and faces don't always go together. I, for instance, can be introduced to a person at the start of supper and manage to forget their name by the end of it, yet I will remember details such as where they live. It's quite possible that Harry would have been so introduced to Susan Bones -- he forgets that her name is Susan, but remembers that she's in Hufflepuff. He could also be thinking: "One of the Hufflepuff girls I was introduced to...is she Morag, Susan, Hannah or Sally? Argh, I forget!"
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 9:48 am (#377 of 491)
Maybe the Mystery Slytherin who saw the Testrals is Blaise Zabini - we don't know anything about HIM except the fact that he's a Slytherin in Harry's year. And maybe Blaise is going to be "a good Slytherin"...?
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 12:01 pm (#378 of 491)
We don't even know if Zabini is a "him," although I think so.
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 2:24 pm (#379 of 491)
Are there women called "Blaise" ? I thought it was a man's name; the French form of Latin Saint's name Blasius...
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Catherine - Apr 17, 2004 2:28 pm (#380 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Take 10 points, Lars, you are correct. The name means "lisping" or "one who stutters." Every source I've searched says that the gender of this name is male.
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 5:39 pm (#381 of 491)
Not to mention the famous Blaise Pascal, the mathematician.
For some reason, there is a bit of a debate over poor Blaise's gender. I suppose there ARE girls with masculine names and at first glance, the name might appear feminine. JKR has never said. I hope she clears up the matter in Bk6.
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Mare - Apr 19, 2004 1:02 am (#382 of 491)
Well seeing how I already heard of several translators who translated Blaise as a female, it is apparantly not so clear to all the non-english originated people that she is male.
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Anna L. Black - May 15, 2004 1:28 pm (#383 of 491)
Edited by May 15, 2004 1:28 pm
I don't know if anybody saw this, but JKR now has a site of her own, and it includes bits of the books that she didn't insert, and all kinds of notes and information on characters. Anyway, this is what she writes about Theodore Nott:
Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's.
However, in this scene (JK's talking about a scene between Malfoy and Nott she wanted to include in CoS or Gof) Theodore's father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of OotP) goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own ...... "
There's more, but that's the most important bits. I guess that answers a lot of our questions
The site is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (obviously).
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Tomoé - May 15, 2004 1:59 pm (#384 of 491)
Back in business
Theodore is a clever loner
Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer
JKR used the word clever twice about Theodore in a 200 words long text. That sounds like is a Ravenclaw!
Victory dance! *
(I know it doesn't exactly means he's a Ravenclaw, but it strongly re-enforce that idea, in my mind at least ^_^ )
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Anna L. Black - May 15, 2004 2:17 pm (#385 of 491)
It makes sense that he's in Ravenclaw, because she never mentioned his house If he were a Slytherin, she could've easily written it
There are a lot of thigs on that site that solve many of our mysteries. In the FAQ, there's a poll, and hopefully - the next question answered will be about Mark Evans. *crossing my fingers*
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haymoni - May 15, 2004 3:44 pm (#386 of 491)
I could not get into the FAQ section - it kept loading and loading and loading - very frustrating!!!
I'll try again later.
I liked the bit about the conversation with Draco and Theodore. Someone who can beat Draco at his own game - I love it!
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Prefect Marcus - May 15, 2004 5:43 pm (#387 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Haymoni,
Try the text only section. It doesn't have all the hidden easter eggs, but it contains the main stuff in an easily accessed format.
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Maollelujah - May 16, 2004 5:06 pm (#388 of 491)
(I know it doesn't exactly means he's a Ravenclaw, but it strongly re-enforce that idea, in my mind at least ^_^ )
Why would it, since the most brilliant student Dumbledore has ever seen wasn't in Ravenclaw... 'Two clevers' could just be what Salazar Slytherin prized.
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SarcasticGinny - May 17, 2004 8:51 am (#389 of 491)
I still think Teddy is our mystery Syltherin. Clever can many times equate to cunning depending on what that cleverness is used to achieve. I also liked that his dad is a widower, so it's still entirely possible that he saw the mother figure die and thus can be viewing thestrals with Harry and Neville. And I agree with haymoni, I like the sound of the dynamic between Teddy and Draco-it does wonders for my theory that Teddy Nott is going to come back next year mad as spit at Draco for what happened to his dad in the battle and how Lucius told everyone just to leave him there.
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Lars Smedberg - May 17, 2004 11:16 am (#390 of 491)
If Theodore Nott is the boy who saw the Thestrals, shouldn't that have been mentioned in chapter 26 of "Order of the Phoenix" ? Harry ought to have recognized him. Well, anybody guess is as good as anybody else's - and MY guess is that they're NOT one and the same.
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Warty Harris - May 17, 2004 3:38 pm (#391 of 491)
I thought that Nott and the Mystery Slytherin were different people but now I think they may be the same person. If Nott is being raised by an elderly widower then that means that Theodore's mother is probably dead. Did he see his mother die?
I think that being clever and independant would lead to being in Ravenclaw so I think it would be more likely. Yet why would JKR mention his cleverness? Maybe he is a Slytherin and this shows why he chooses not to hang out with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.
If he lost his mother like Harry and Luna then he may be very important somehow.
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S.E. Jones - May 17, 2004 7:09 pm (#392 of 491)
Let it snow!
Harry ought to have recognized him.
Why didn't Harry know Susan Bones's name after having her in class for three years? He's not the most observant person and we are often told of observations that Harry, himself, doesn't take the time to note. For instance, (GoF, ch14, pg227, US) The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying awake. We are not Harry in the story, more Harry's shadow, we go everywhere he does, see everything he does, but are occassionally privy to more than him. Another example would be when Harry is busy trying to catch the snitch in his second Quidditch game in PS (the one Snape refereed) and we get to see what Harry doesn't, what's going on in the stands....
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Tomoé - May 18, 2004 12:04 am (#393 of 491)
Back in business
Why didn't Harry know Susan Bones's name after having her in class for three years?
In fact, he had lessons with her for five years, but he knew she was in Hufflepuff even if he didn't remember her name (not very difficult to guess as she came with Ernie, Hannah and Justin).
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Gina R Snape - May 18, 2004 10:25 am (#394 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Why would JKR feel the need to mention he is a loner not compelled to hang with Malfoy if he's a Ravenclaw? No, I think she is leaving us the distinct impression that he most definitely is a Slytherin, but not part of Draco's pack. He is a loner and clever (not unlike Snape ), which I think means we will see him again acting like a clever loner--making independent observations about things and not mindlessly espousing Draco's version of Slytherin party-line politics. He may even stand up to Draco at some point, or be clear to step out of the way so as not to be mixed up with them when the doxy droppings hit the fan...
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S.E. Jones - May 18, 2004 4:17 pm (#395 of 491)
Let it snow!
And I agree with haymoni, I like the sound of the dynamic between Teddy and Draco-it does wonders for my theory that Teddy Nott is going to come back next year mad as spit at Draco for what happened to his dad in the battle and how Lucius told everyone just to leave him there.
Question: why is it assumed that Nott would blame Malfoy for what happened to his dad at the MoM? Draco blames Harry for his dad being in Azkaban instead of doing the logical thing which would be to say, "well he brought it on himself for being a DE". So, why would Nott be any different? His dad is also a DE and was just doing his job, no doubt from his point-of-view, as was Lucius. He may see it as Harry's fault as well because it was Harry and friends who were making shelves and orbs explode which is the reason his elderly father was injured. Harry may have a far more cunning enemy at school next year and Draco may have a far better ally.
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 1:41 am (#396 of 491)
Back in business
Gina -> Why would JKR feel the need to mention he is a loner not compelled to hang with Malfoy if he's a Ravenclaw?
That question is bugging me. Why mention Malfoy's gang if Theo isn't in Slytherin? That's ruining my "Theo is a Ravenclaw" theory. Oh well ... it won't be the first time ... -_-
If Theo's a Slyth, the absence of his mother would make him the perfect candidate to be the Mysterious Slytherin, and explain why Hagrid seemed to know he could see the thestrals. Though the stringy/weedy issue and the lack of connection between the two boys in Harry's mind make me believe he's not the one.
Anyway, if Theodore is indeed a Slytherin, we now have a clearer idea of the inner dynamic between the Slytherin students.
There's Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG) who hang together, wherever who find one, the two others are not far. ^_^
There's Nott, the lone one, like Hermione before she hang around with Harry and Ron.
Pansy and her girls, at least two, likely three, maybe more.
I'm not sure where to put Millicent and Blaise though, maybe together, maybe Milly with the girls and Blaise will other Slyth boy(s) (if there are others) or all by himself too or with the other girls if he's a girl (which I doubt).
I don't think Theo will blame the Malfoys for what happen to his dad, he's more clever than Draco, he should know better. I hope we will see much of him in the two books to come, I like his description of character.
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S.E. Jones - May 20, 2004 2:21 am (#397 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought Millicent was once mentioned as one of the girls around Pansy..?
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 2:42 am (#398 of 491)
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I don't have that line in my quote bank, I may have fail to notice though. Anyone else remember that?
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Neville Longbottom - May 20, 2004 3:10 pm (#399 of 491)
Millicent was a part of Umbridge's squad. So I think she belongs to Malfoy's or Pansy's gang, too.
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 5:53 pm (#400 of 491)
Back in business
I don't think Millicent's a regular cronies of Malfoy, Harry would have notice her if she was. Often we read "Malfoy with Crabbe and Goyle", no mention of anyone else, there are just three. Millie can be an acquaintance of his though. She could be one of the Slytherin girls around Pansy, but there no canon to prove or discard it.
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Well Harry signed up for everything Ron signed up for, so if Ron didn't want to take advanced flying then Harry wouldn't either. Or he didn't think he needed the class, being a natural at it. I don't really buy either of those, but Madam Hooch has to have something else to do at this school other than teach one flying class and ref a few Quidditch matches.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 18, 2004 12:55 am (#352 of 491)
Let it snow!
I just ran across this during yet another read through of OotP and I thought I'd mention it as I thought it pointed to the fact that the as yet unnamed Slytherin could see threstrals will be important later:
discussing the Care of Magical Creatures lesson with the threstrals: "I'm surprised so many people could see them", said Ron. "Three in a class ---" (OotP, ch21, pg450, US)
Why does everyone think this will be important? Any ideas?
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haymoni - Mar 18, 2004 6:27 am (#353 of 491)
You can only look at things from your perspective - Ron hasn't seen anyone "snuff it" so why should anyone else his age have been through that?
You have to actually witness a death and register its meaning to see the thestrals. Just knowing that your grandparents are dead must not be enough.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 18, 2004 2:47 pm (#354 of 491)
Let it snow!
Yes, but the line almost seems to be coming from JKR herself, as if she's telling us to mark something here....
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alexa - Mar 18, 2004 8:07 pm (#355 of 491)
I have another crazy theory. Anyone thinks that this mysterious Slytherin boy is the illegitimate son of Regulus Black? He has seen his father die, but nobody in the Black family are aware he is the last survival of the Black family. Maybe he follows his mother's surname to conceal his identity. He could be the Slytherin who aids in unifying the houses.
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Tomoé - Mar 22, 2004 1:34 pm (#356 of 491)
Back in business
Black should have been between "Abbott, Hannah" and "Bones, Susan" or he could had to do a year over again ...
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Hogs Head - Mar 23, 2004 9:12 pm (#357 of 491)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Not to infer that JKR is afraid to tackle tough subjects (like death), but somehow I doubt that the subject of legitimacy vs. illegitimacy will come up. Perhaps if there is a later series where Harry is an adult . . .?
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Tomoé - Mar 25, 2004 3:43 pm (#358 of 491)
Back in business
I was mulling over Theodore Nott those last weeks, his mentions and their context.
First mention, the sorting ceremony in PS. Let's take a closer look.
First, Abbott, Bones, Boot, Bunklehurst, Brown and Bulstrode, some of those names could be important later, but the main purpose seems to make sure the House names of the Houses sink in. They all have first names and Houses.
Justin and Seamus, one who will be important in book 2, one who will become a Gryffindor and was beside Harry in the line. They both have first names and Houses.
Hermione, because she will become a major character. First name and House, of course.
Longbottom and MacDougal, one who will become an important character and the other for whom we don't even know in which House she have been sorted. Both have their first names.
Malfoy, Moon, Nott, Parkinson, Patil, Patil, Perks and Potter, (sounds like a lawyer firm ^_^) the first and the last one are major characters. For the six others, there's no House mention and only Perks has a first name, the five other are the only ones the first names is not mentioned. Three of them will become minor characters since PoA or GoF, Parkinson and the Patils, the three others still just names.
Turpin, Weasley and Zabini, because they are the last three and one of them is a major character. They all have first names and Houses.
Second mention, in the list of the borrower of QtA.
8 of them are on their House team (Wood, Flint, Diggory, Johnson, Bell, Warrington, Weasley and Potter).
4 of them are yet to meet (Dunstar, Bundy, Dorny and Capper).
1 of them, the Fawcett girl, have been mention from time to time.
6 of them are in Harry's year (Macmillan, Boot, Nott, Bulstrode, Granger and Potter).
Wood and Flint could be there as a reminder of the old Quidditch days, Diggory as a memorial and the other Quidditch players because it would be logical that Quidditch players borrow books about Quidditch. For the 4 unknown students, it could be because the kids we know are not the only ones who borrow books from the library. Harry and Hermione because they are major Characters.
For the last five, Fawcett was mentioned three times when QtA was published, Ernie thrice beside his supporting role in CoS, Terry twice, Milli twice and Theo only once, but his last name was mention in GoF as a Death Eater name. Even I, who wasn't a Harry Potter freak back then, made the connection between the kid sorted in PS and the DE named in GoF. Those five names sound like "Hey! HP sleuths, mark those five kids, they will be important later!", like Mundugus Fletcher and Mrs Figg before OoP or Parvati and Lavander before PoA.
Nott's last mention, the longest of all, the Quibbler scene with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, where we learn is first name.
If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott. They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe. Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters. (UK OoP, p.514)
Interestingly, we don't know if Nott read the interview or just stand aside the three others. We don't know if he looked around at Harry or if he looked threatening at all. It's not clear if he's include as in the DE's son statement, Theo could be Nott's nephew or his second cousin twice removed for all we know. To cap it all, this scene happened in the library, a neutral place that we cannot associate with the Slytherin House.
Then, there's JKR's Notebook. She allowed us to see the first page, but not the second one, Nott's one. We don't know his house or his parentage.
About Nott the DE, who could be Theo's father, He was acquitted and Voldemort only asked him to do better this time, along with Crabbe and Goyle, and he was the first to fall in the Department of Mystery. We don't even know his first name.
If she had something to hide in Theodore's regard or the Nott Family, but want us to remember they exist, JKR wouldn't act differently. Twice, Theo is drown in list of names and the third time, he stay in the shadow of three "show off" characters. Is Theodore Nott a Slytherin? I doubt it. Slytherin is the obvious option as we all felt for it, maybe Theo is a lesson about birth, choices and prejudice; we don't know him, he's a DE's son, therefore he's a Slytherin. For all the above reason, I bet Theo is a Ravenclaw.
P.S. : Sorry, I wrote a novel again.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 26, 2004 9:29 am (#359 of 491)
Let it snow!
Or maybe he'll be a lesson and be a Slytherin who we don't end up hating..?
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Tomoé - Mar 26, 2004 11:23 am (#360 of 491)
Back in business
That could do too, Sarah. But I still think Nott is a Ravenclaw. ^_^
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 10:21 am (#361 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Theodore Nott is a Slytherin. The first time we see him described in OotP, he is called a "stringy Slytherin boy" (page 445, American) who was standing near Goyle. On page 583, he is called "weedy-looking" and he, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are looking angry at Harry for naming "their fathers" as death eaters.
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hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 11:35 am (#362 of 491)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
The first time we see him described in OotP, he is called a "stringy Slytherin boy" (page 445, American) who was standing near Goyle.
Does it actually say that "Nott was the stringy..."? I don't have my book with me right now.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 1:28 pm (#363 of 491)
Back in business
There's no concrete proof the stringy Slytherin Thestral seer is weedy Theodore Nott. Stringy and weedy, while not antonyms, mean not exactly the same thing. Plus, when Harry learns Nott's name, he didn't do the connection with the thestral seer.
Let's see what JKR use to do when she introduce characters Harry don't know by name.
Hannah Abbott
"A pink-faced girl with blond pigtails stumbled out of the line" (PS p.89)
"a girl with blonde pigtails" (UK CoS pp. 148)
Susan Bones :
"a Hufflepuff girl with a long plait down her back whose name Harry did not know" (UK OoP p.301)
"the girl with the long plait down her back" (UK OoP p.305)
Ernie Macmillan
"a stout boy was saying" (UK CoS pp. 148)
"the stout boy" (UK CoS pp. 148)
Zacharias Smith
"closely followed by a tall skinny blond boy with a upturned nose" (UK OoP pp.302)
"said the blond Hufflepuff player" (UK OoP pp.304)
"said the blond boy" (UK OoP pp.304)
Always the same words, even for Hannah's descriptions, written a year apart. So it'll take more than weedy and stringy to make me believe Nott can see thestral.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 2:45 pm (#364 of 491)
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I forgot to talk about the paragraph when Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG) read the interview with Nott. This is a tricky one, let me strip it apart, sentence by sentence.
"If anything more was needed to complete Harry’s happiness, it was the reaction he got from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle."
Harry was happy because of MCG's reaction, Nott's reaction didn't matter, if he had any.
"He saw them with their heads together later that afternoon in the library; they were with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott."
Here, them, their and they refer strictly to MCG, as the pronouns refer to the last sentence were Nott was absent. Therefore, MCG have their head together, Nott could be with them or not, the sentence bring no precision on that matter.
"They looked round at Harry as he browsed the shelves for the book he needed on Partial Vanishment : Goyle cracked his knuckles threateningly and Malfoy whispered something undoubtedly malevolent to Crabbe."
This one is tricky. When you read only the first part, you may understand MCG and Nott looked at Harry, but the end of the sentence give us only the reaction of MCG, no mention of Nott. Maybe he looked round, but he did nothing that draw Harry's attention.
"Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters." (UK OoP p.514)
We know "they were acting", but they refer to MCG and only them because Nott didn't act in the last sentence. So, their father refer also to the three acting boys, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.
As the paragraph end, all we can objectively conclude is that Nott's first name is Theodore and that he, once, hanged around with MCG in the library while they read an illegal interview.
The stringy unnamed Slytherin and weedy Theodore Nott, Nott the DE and Nott the student, Theo hanging around with MCG, all sons of DEs, everything to make us believe Theo is a Slytherin and the son of the DE Nott. A red herring if you ask me, in flashing neon.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 30, 2004 4:17 pm (#365 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 30, 2004 3:18 pm
Excellent analysis Tomoe. Pronouns and their antecedents can cause a great deal of problems.
There is one other interpretation. Four boys were huddled together, three behaved menacing towards Harry. We are then told that "Harry knew perfectly well why they were acting like this : he had named all their father as Death Eaters." So logically the behavior referred to might include the huddling together as well as the implied threats.
This would make all four boys' fathers Death Eaters.
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 4:21 pm (#366 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Harry named Nott, along with Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy in GoF to Cornelius Fudge as the Death Eaters present in the cemetery that night.
We can differ in opinion, but I feel certain that Therodore Nott is a Slytherin, and as such is probably NOT Harry's biggest fan by the end of OotP.
Cheers.
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 8:27 pm (#367 of 491)
Back in business
Yes, Marcus, you're right about the other interpretation. However, as neither can be held true, it's safer to assume Nott wasn't included.
That's an interesting point Catherine, the DE Nott is named along with Crabbe and Goyle by both Voldemort and Harry in GoF. In OoP, he is the first to fall so we didn't have time to know him a little better.
JKR obviously want use to remember both Notts, she also want us to associate the Notts with the Malfoys, the Crabbes and the Goyles, but she don't want us to know much about both of them and that's fishy. Not that I don't believe Theodore is Nott's son, but there's no proof yet.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#368 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Tomeo, safer in the sense of never trusting Rowling unless she specifically states something. :-)
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 11:43 pm (#369 of 491)
Back in business
Exactly, I'm paranoid about it since I learn Scabbers was really James old friend who sold him out and get the blame on Sirius. ^_^
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Maollelujah - Apr 1, 2004 6:03 pm (#370 of 491)
JKR obviously want use to remember both Notts, she also want us to associate the Notts with the Malfoys, the Crabbes and the Goyles, but she don't want us to know much about both of them and that's fishy.
Not anymore fishy than not really knowing anything about Harry's parents. And for that matter anyone else in the books.
From what little we know of Nott, the best guess we can make is that he is in Slytherin. I have a feeling that he will show up in Harry's Newt-level DADA class.
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Czarina - Apr 1, 2004 6:51 pm (#371 of 491)
I think Theodore Nott is going to be a semi-important character in the later books. The two or three casual mentions of him in OoP might just be JKR's way of introducing a new character. We didn't know anything about Luna, even her existence, until the fifth book. For many of her characters, JKR just introduces them: Luna, Tonks, Myrtle, Sirius, Lupin, etc. However, she does hint about others that she introduces. We hardly knew anything about Ginny, Bill, or Charlie until CoS, PoA, and GoF. In PS, Draco goes on and on about his father, whom we do not meet until CoS. There are many examples. Simply put, Nott has been briefly introduced now -- he will show up again later.
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Warty Harris - Apr 2, 2004 8:53 am (#372 of 491)
I am starting to think the Mystery Slytherin is Nott, but I cannot get over how Hagrid was interupted right before he would have said Notts name. Why would his name be hidden there but casually brought up later on in the book with no connection? I think Harry would have remembered the other boy who could see thestrals. If he couldn't remember it was the same boy in the library then when is he going to make the connection that Nott can see thestrals?
The name of the boy is a mystery. He will probably be important in the next books. Why would Nott be brought up later in the same book (#5) and the connection not be made? If the mystery Slytherin is Nott and his father is a death eater then it could be mentioned later. Why was Nott brought later in the book and yet Harry could not make the connection at the time.
My guess is that JKR wanted to show a connection between Theodore Nott and the death eaters/slytherins AND still hide that Nott is the mystery Slytherin. Why? Telling the reader Nott is connected to the death eater Nott officially could have waited. Many readers remember the connection. Why play it up at the end of the book? Either the author felt it important to make the connection of the young Nott to the death eaters and have Harry forget for a moment that this is the same boy who could see thestrals.....or this is not the same boy who could see the thestrals.
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Czarina - Apr 2, 2004 9:28 am (#373 of 491)
I don't think the seeing thestrals was all that important for Harry in the overall book. The interplay between Umbridge and Hagrid was much more important to him. He just noticed that one of the Slytherin boys could see thestrals, or at least appeared to be able to see them. Obviously not Malfoy, Crabbe, or Goyle, who are the only Slytherin boys that he appears to know by sight and name. He probably doesn't recognize Nott. He doesn't know his name off the top of his head. Had there been no Umbridge on the scene, Harry might have tried to remember the boy's name. As such, it was a trivial matter for him.
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Warty Harris - Apr 2, 2004 9:57 am (#374 of 491)
I do think that another boy being able to see the thestrals was not the most important occurence in the chapter Czarina...but Harry's experience with the thestrals is important. Thestrals are an important creature through out the book and Harry is relieved to know other people see them and that he is not crazy.
It is somewhat trivial to everything else that is going on, and Harry may forget a face here and there. It could be he just forgot about Nott being the other boy who could see thestrals in all the flurry surrounding the release of the Quibbler article. Perhaps Nott was brought up there to show his anger at his father being named a death eater. I just think that it is unlikely that Harry would forget that this is the same boy that saw the thestrals.
Who else has been able to see the thestrals?
Luna Neville Mystery Slytherin....?
I think they all may be important.
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Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 9:07 am (#375 of 491)
Back in business
I agree with Warty, while Thestrals are not a major theme in the book, it still a important matter for Harry, encountering other persons who can see them apart him and Luna made him feel less freaky.
However, I don't think "Harry may forget a face here and there", in fact he's better with faces than names. He sorted all the people who attend the Hogsmeade meeting in the right house, even those he didn't know by name, like Zacharias and Susan.
I believe the Mystery Slytherin will be important, because Harry will be looking for someone to talk about sudden death. The members of the Order are quite nice, but they are already used to the idea that "there are things worth dying for". Neville lost his grandfather, but he likely died of old age, sickness or grieving for losing his son, he wasn't perfectly healthy one minute then lost forever before you can say "watch out!". Neville didn't follow the same mourning process than Harry will need. Luna? maybe her way to deal with death is too "business as usual" for Harry. Ron, Ginny and Hermione won't be as affected as Harry will by Sirius's death, they could get that "there are things worth dying for" faster than Harry, especially Hermione.
Who else Harry know have seen death? The mystery Slytherin. That won't be for the first part of the year, of course, but he will eventually cross the boy's path and maybe even integrate him and some of his fellow Slytherin friends in the "all houses gang".
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Czarina - Apr 3, 2004 10:17 am (#376 of 491)
"He sorted all the people who attend the Hogsmeade meeting in the right house, even those he didn't know by name, like Zacharias and Susan. "
Well, the students' robes might have some sort of marker on them that states which House the wearer is in (like in the movies -- JKR can be contaminated by the films too!). Also, Harry might make a lucky guess based on the fact that if a student is wearing a yellow-and-black scarf, he or she is probably in Hufflepuff. Such details are too insignificant to be put in the book itself. Furthermore, Harry could simply remember that Person X sits at the Hufflepuff table, plays on the Hufflepuff Quidditch team, etc., without remembering their name.
Names and faces don't always go together. I, for instance, can be introduced to a person at the start of supper and manage to forget their name by the end of it, yet I will remember details such as where they live. It's quite possible that Harry would have been so introduced to Susan Bones -- he forgets that her name is Susan, but remembers that she's in Hufflepuff. He could also be thinking: "One of the Hufflepuff girls I was introduced to...is she Morag, Susan, Hannah or Sally? Argh, I forget!"
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 9:48 am (#377 of 491)
Maybe the Mystery Slytherin who saw the Testrals is Blaise Zabini - we don't know anything about HIM except the fact that he's a Slytherin in Harry's year. And maybe Blaise is going to be "a good Slytherin"...?
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 12:01 pm (#378 of 491)
We don't even know if Zabini is a "him," although I think so.
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 2:24 pm (#379 of 491)
Are there women called "Blaise" ? I thought it was a man's name; the French form of Latin Saint's name Blasius...
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Catherine - Apr 17, 2004 2:28 pm (#380 of 491)
Canon Seeker
Take 10 points, Lars, you are correct. The name means "lisping" or "one who stutters." Every source I've searched says that the gender of this name is male.
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 5:39 pm (#381 of 491)
Not to mention the famous Blaise Pascal, the mathematician.
For some reason, there is a bit of a debate over poor Blaise's gender. I suppose there ARE girls with masculine names and at first glance, the name might appear feminine. JKR has never said. I hope she clears up the matter in Bk6.
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Mare - Apr 19, 2004 1:02 am (#382 of 491)
Well seeing how I already heard of several translators who translated Blaise as a female, it is apparantly not so clear to all the non-english originated people that she is male.
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Anna L. Black - May 15, 2004 1:28 pm (#383 of 491)
Edited by May 15, 2004 1:28 pm
I don't know if anybody saw this, but JKR now has a site of her own, and it includes bits of the books that she didn't insert, and all kinds of notes and information on characters. Anyway, this is what she writes about Theodore Nott:
Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's.
However, in this scene (JK's talking about a scene between Malfoy and Nott she wanted to include in CoS or Gof) Theodore's father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of OotP) goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own ...... "
There's more, but that's the most important bits. I guess that answers a lot of our questions
The site is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (obviously).
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Tomoé - May 15, 2004 1:59 pm (#384 of 491)
Back in business
Theodore is a clever loner
Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer
JKR used the word clever twice about Theodore in a 200 words long text. That sounds like is a Ravenclaw!
Victory dance! *
(I know it doesn't exactly means he's a Ravenclaw, but it strongly re-enforce that idea, in my mind at least ^_^ )
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Anna L. Black - May 15, 2004 2:17 pm (#385 of 491)
It makes sense that he's in Ravenclaw, because she never mentioned his house If he were a Slytherin, she could've easily written it
There are a lot of thigs on that site that solve many of our mysteries. In the FAQ, there's a poll, and hopefully - the next question answered will be about Mark Evans. *crossing my fingers*
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haymoni - May 15, 2004 3:44 pm (#386 of 491)
I could not get into the FAQ section - it kept loading and loading and loading - very frustrating!!!
I'll try again later.
I liked the bit about the conversation with Draco and Theodore. Someone who can beat Draco at his own game - I love it!
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Prefect Marcus - May 15, 2004 5:43 pm (#387 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
Haymoni,
Try the text only section. It doesn't have all the hidden easter eggs, but it contains the main stuff in an easily accessed format.
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Maollelujah - May 16, 2004 5:06 pm (#388 of 491)
(I know it doesn't exactly means he's a Ravenclaw, but it strongly re-enforce that idea, in my mind at least ^_^ )
Why would it, since the most brilliant student Dumbledore has ever seen wasn't in Ravenclaw... 'Two clevers' could just be what Salazar Slytherin prized.
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SarcasticGinny - May 17, 2004 8:51 am (#389 of 491)
I still think Teddy is our mystery Syltherin. Clever can many times equate to cunning depending on what that cleverness is used to achieve. I also liked that his dad is a widower, so it's still entirely possible that he saw the mother figure die and thus can be viewing thestrals with Harry and Neville. And I agree with haymoni, I like the sound of the dynamic between Teddy and Draco-it does wonders for my theory that Teddy Nott is going to come back next year mad as spit at Draco for what happened to his dad in the battle and how Lucius told everyone just to leave him there.
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Lars Smedberg - May 17, 2004 11:16 am (#390 of 491)
If Theodore Nott is the boy who saw the Thestrals, shouldn't that have been mentioned in chapter 26 of "Order of the Phoenix" ? Harry ought to have recognized him. Well, anybody guess is as good as anybody else's - and MY guess is that they're NOT one and the same.
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Warty Harris - May 17, 2004 3:38 pm (#391 of 491)
I thought that Nott and the Mystery Slytherin were different people but now I think they may be the same person. If Nott is being raised by an elderly widower then that means that Theodore's mother is probably dead. Did he see his mother die?
I think that being clever and independant would lead to being in Ravenclaw so I think it would be more likely. Yet why would JKR mention his cleverness? Maybe he is a Slytherin and this shows why he chooses not to hang out with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.
If he lost his mother like Harry and Luna then he may be very important somehow.
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S.E. Jones - May 17, 2004 7:09 pm (#392 of 491)
Let it snow!
Harry ought to have recognized him.
Why didn't Harry know Susan Bones's name after having her in class for three years? He's not the most observant person and we are often told of observations that Harry, himself, doesn't take the time to note. For instance, (GoF, ch14, pg227, US) The dormitory was completely silent, and, had he been less preoccupied, Harry would have realized that the absence of Neville's usual snores meant that he was not the only one lying awake. We are not Harry in the story, more Harry's shadow, we go everywhere he does, see everything he does, but are occassionally privy to more than him. Another example would be when Harry is busy trying to catch the snitch in his second Quidditch game in PS (the one Snape refereed) and we get to see what Harry doesn't, what's going on in the stands....
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Tomoé - May 18, 2004 12:04 am (#393 of 491)
Back in business
Why didn't Harry know Susan Bones's name after having her in class for three years?
In fact, he had lessons with her for five years, but he knew she was in Hufflepuff even if he didn't remember her name (not very difficult to guess as she came with Ernie, Hannah and Justin).
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Gina R Snape - May 18, 2004 10:25 am (#394 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Why would JKR feel the need to mention he is a loner not compelled to hang with Malfoy if he's a Ravenclaw? No, I think she is leaving us the distinct impression that he most definitely is a Slytherin, but not part of Draco's pack. He is a loner and clever (not unlike Snape ), which I think means we will see him again acting like a clever loner--making independent observations about things and not mindlessly espousing Draco's version of Slytherin party-line politics. He may even stand up to Draco at some point, or be clear to step out of the way so as not to be mixed up with them when the doxy droppings hit the fan...
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S.E. Jones - May 18, 2004 4:17 pm (#395 of 491)
Let it snow!
And I agree with haymoni, I like the sound of the dynamic between Teddy and Draco-it does wonders for my theory that Teddy Nott is going to come back next year mad as spit at Draco for what happened to his dad in the battle and how Lucius told everyone just to leave him there.
Question: why is it assumed that Nott would blame Malfoy for what happened to his dad at the MoM? Draco blames Harry for his dad being in Azkaban instead of doing the logical thing which would be to say, "well he brought it on himself for being a DE". So, why would Nott be any different? His dad is also a DE and was just doing his job, no doubt from his point-of-view, as was Lucius. He may see it as Harry's fault as well because it was Harry and friends who were making shelves and orbs explode which is the reason his elderly father was injured. Harry may have a far more cunning enemy at school next year and Draco may have a far better ally.
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 1:41 am (#396 of 491)
Back in business
Gina -> Why would JKR feel the need to mention he is a loner not compelled to hang with Malfoy if he's a Ravenclaw?
That question is bugging me. Why mention Malfoy's gang if Theo isn't in Slytherin? That's ruining my "Theo is a Ravenclaw" theory. Oh well ... it won't be the first time ... -_-
If Theo's a Slyth, the absence of his mother would make him the perfect candidate to be the Mysterious Slytherin, and explain why Hagrid seemed to know he could see the thestrals. Though the stringy/weedy issue and the lack of connection between the two boys in Harry's mind make me believe he's not the one.
Anyway, if Theodore is indeed a Slytherin, we now have a clearer idea of the inner dynamic between the Slytherin students.
There's Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (MCG) who hang together, wherever who find one, the two others are not far. ^_^
There's Nott, the lone one, like Hermione before she hang around with Harry and Ron.
Pansy and her girls, at least two, likely three, maybe more.
I'm not sure where to put Millicent and Blaise though, maybe together, maybe Milly with the girls and Blaise will other Slyth boy(s) (if there are others) or all by himself too or with the other girls if he's a girl (which I doubt).
I don't think Theo will blame the Malfoys for what happen to his dad, he's more clever than Draco, he should know better. I hope we will see much of him in the two books to come, I like his description of character.
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S.E. Jones - May 20, 2004 2:21 am (#397 of 491)
Let it snow!
I thought Millicent was once mentioned as one of the girls around Pansy..?
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 2:42 am (#398 of 491)
Back in business
I don't have that line in my quote bank, I may have fail to notice though. Anyone else remember that?
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Neville Longbottom - May 20, 2004 3:10 pm (#399 of 491)
Millicent was a part of Umbridge's squad. So I think she belongs to Malfoy's or Pansy's gang, too.
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 5:53 pm (#400 of 491)
Back in business
I don't think Millicent's a regular cronies of Malfoy, Harry would have notice her if she was. Often we read "Malfoy with Crabbe and Goyle", no mention of anyone else, there are just three. Millie can be an acquaintance of his though. She could be one of the Slytherin girls around Pansy, but there no canon to prove or discard it.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 401 to 450)
Elanor Sat May 14, 2011 9:30 am
S.E. Jones - May 20, 2004 7:36 pm (#401 of 491)
Let it snow!
The mention I was thinking of had something to do with Millicent calling Hermione something and the narrator first remarking that it was one of the girls who flocks around Pansy and then names her Millicent afterward..... Can't think where it is though. I'm still looking....
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 8:15 pm (#402 of 491)
Back in business
Hum? In GoF maybe ... I didn't read that book as often as the others. Definitly not In PS, CoS or PoA. I'll check tonight.
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Catherine - May 21, 2004 6:54 am (#403 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I don't think we have ever seen Millicent Bullstrode speak in the novels, just like we haven't seen the "real" Crabbe and Goyle speak (JKR has them "chuckle trollishly" and such). The only time Crabbe and Goyle appear to truly talk is when Harry and Ron impersonate them by using polyjuice potion. Other than that, they never appear to say anything besides grunts or laughing.
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Prefect Marcus - May 21, 2004 9:23 am (#404 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
The only three Slytherins who speak are Draco, Pansy, and Marcus Flint when he protested Harry swallowing the Snitch. No other Slytherin has uttered a word.
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Tomoé - May 21, 2004 9:47 am (#405 of 491)
Back in business
That was my impression too Catherine, but I'll check GoF and OoP nevertheless. I checked the Lexicon and it doesn't look like I missed anything. (PS 7, CoS 11-12, OoP 32 and QtA)
Edit : Thanks Marcus
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 11:53 am (#406 of 491)
Back in business
I scanned through the 5 books and didn't find any Slytherin speaking beside Draco, Pansy and Flint.
However, I believe we will see more of them in the next book, we used to heard of only four of them a book from books 1 to 4 Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and a Slytherin girl, either Pansy or Millicent (I didn't use the mention from the sorting chapter, PS7). But in OoP, we have Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent and the Mystery Slytherin, plus maybe Theodore and Daphne. Six to eight Slytherins in Harry's year in OoP, as many as the Gryffindors, while we met only 4 Ravenclaws and 5 Hufflepuffs (if Michael and Zacharias are in Harry's year).
It sounds to me like she introduced as many Slytherins as she can to prevent characters to come out of the blue when we'll read about the internal dynamics of Salazar's House in book 6.
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Ladybug220 - Jun 15, 2004 11:56 am (#407 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Edited by Jun 15, 2004 11:57 am
Since the gender of Blaise Zambini has been disputed in this thread (if my memory is correct) then y'all should know that it has been officially stated by JKR to the Portugese translators that Blaise is male. Here is the update in the Lexicon with Steve's explanation:
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 1:07 pm (#408 of 491)
Back in business
Great! He was my #1 suspect to be the Mystery Slytherin and now we know for sure he's a boy, my conviction is stronger still. ^_^
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Warty Harris - Jun 15, 2004 3:55 pm (#409 of 491)
The mystery Slytherin has to be one of the two(Blaise Zabini or Theodore Nott). I know there are suppose to be 1,000 students but I think she (J.K. Rowling) made that number up off the top of her head. It appears that there are no more than five girls and five boys per year to a house. Sometimes there are fewer, like with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs and in Harry's year it appears only three Gryffindor girls exist.
Since we know Blaise is a boy now, that means there are five boys in Slytherin that year. We have never heard of there being more than ten students so it has to be one of these two.
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 4:07 pm (#410 of 491)
Back in business
It is not yet confirmed that Theodore Nott is a Slytherin (likely, but not confirmed) so Blaise is the only confirmated Slytherin boy beside Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle and the only safe candidate to be the Mystery Slytherin.
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Gina R Snape - Jun 15, 2004 10:05 pm (#411 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Wasn't Theodore Nott confirmed a Slytherin on JKR's official website? I mean, there was that bit she said she'd always wanted to write about Theodore and Draco having a chat while their fathers met. And she mentions that Theodore is Draco's equal, but not compelled to be part of his crowd. I got the distinct impression they were definitely in the same house.
Also, Ladybug you beat me to it!!!! I always thought Blaise was a male. At last, now, we know for sure!
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 8:29 am (#412 of 491)
Back in business
There's nothing written like "Theodore Nott is a Slytherin", the whole context suggest it yes, but there no confirmation.
Talking of Theo, how do you think his mother die and, more important still, when do you think his mother die?
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Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2004 10:22 am (#413 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, if Theodore is the mystery Slytherin, then we know he can see the thestrals. That kind of lends itself to the idea of her being killed in front of him perhaps. Maybe something to do with DE business, hence Theodore not wanting to be part of any gang? Maybe he sees all the destruction it can cause and thinks "Nah, I'll just go it alone..."
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Ladybug220 - Jun 16, 2004 2:00 pm (#414 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Sorry Gina!
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 2:56 pm (#415 of 491)
Back in business
If it's something to do with the DE's business, Theo should have been too young for the death to sink in, like Harry he couldn't see the thestrals even if his mother died in front of him. And I found it a little too convenient that JKR revealed Theo has lost his mother but didn't say how or when. There still the stringy/weedy business and the absence of link between the two scene that bug me.
My bet is Mrs Nott was killed by the Aurors while on duty for the DE, not because she fought back, just because the Aurors had the right to use unforgivable curses. Or maybe worst, she was killed because the Aurors believed her to be a DE.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 16, 2004 4:02 pm (#416 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
There is at least one other Mystery Slytherin.
In the final showdown in Umbridge's office, Millicent has Hermione pinned, and there is an unnamed "large Slytherin Girl" holding on to Ginny, I believe. Or is it Luna. I can't remember. There might even be two unamed Slytherin girls. I will have to check later.
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Warty Harris - Jun 16, 2004 5:02 pm (#417 of 491)
There is at least on more mystery Slytherin girl if there are five girls and five boys. There are the five boys we know of and Tracey Davis, Daphne Greengrass, Millicent Bulstrode and of course Pansy Parkinson. If there are ten in each house then there is another girl. This theory means that there are two other Gryffindor girls.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 5:09 pm (#418 of 491)
Let it snow!
You know, Nott's mom could've just, well, died. Neville said he saw his grandfather die (which is the reason he can see the threstrals) but that doesn't mean he was murdered. We hear that Nott's dad is elderly, maybe his mom was too. Or, maybe she got sick (like Crouch Jr's mom was) and died from illness. He could've seen it, been old enough for it to sink it, been old enough for it to affect his personality (make him a loner, etc), and allow him to see the threstrals, without it ever being connected to his dad being a DE....
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 11:20 pm (#419 of 491)
Back in business
Wasn't the "large Slytherin Girl" a sixth-year?
Yes Sarah, she could have die of illness, boring but true.
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Mare - Jun 17, 2004 7:50 am (#420 of 491)
If there are ten in each house then there is another girl. This theory means that there are two other Gryffindor girls.
Because the Slytherins have more then ten members, the Gryffindors should have to?
I don't think so, I would think it more likely that Gryffindor has 8 members and Slytherin 12, together making 20 (20 broomsticks at flying class)
And seeing how Harry had memebers of several years in his army, I think it is most likely that the IS has too. So I'm with tomoé on this one, the large girl was probably a sixth year.
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Dumbledore - Jul 2, 2004 2:51 pm (#421 of 491)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Tomoe: If it's something to do with the DE's business, Theo should have been too young for the death to sink in, like Harry he couldn't see the thestrals even if his mother died in front of him.
Sorry to be nitpicky, but according to a JKR chat (sorry, I don't have the exact reference) Harry didn't actually see Lily die. JKR said that he was in his cot at the time and didn't actually see it happen.
I completely agree with you, Marè.
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Tomoé - Jul 4, 2004 9:19 pm (#422 of 491)
Back in business
You're right Dumbledore. ^_^
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:40 pm (#423 of 491)
Back in business
Here's my ultimate evidence to show Theodore Nott is not the mystery Slytherin. Feel free to skip the two first posts to the in conclusion part, the rest is the analyse of JKR's way to re-introduce 10 minor characters in every chapter they are in.
Ernie Macmillan
-> Dueling Club […] Up you get Macmillan (CoS 11)
-> the Hufflepuffs who should have been in Herbology […]Justin
[…]Ernie […]Hannah […]We were all [at the Dueling Club] […] That will do, Macmillan (CoS 11)
-> {Justin} Ernie Macmillan of Hufflepuff […]Dueling Club (CoS 13)
-> Justin […] Ernie Macmillan asked Harry […] in Herbology (CoS 14)
-> Herbology […]Justin […]Ernie Macmillan […] and his friend Hannah (CoS 15)
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-> Ernie McMillan told me she’s never missind a Muggle Studies class (PoA 12)
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-> Next they were hailed by Ernie Macmillan, a Hufflepuff fourth-year (GoF 7)
-> Ernie Macmillan of Hufflepuff […]Cedric (GoF 15)
-> One Herbology lesson […] the Hufflepuffs […]Cedric […]Ernie Macmillan and Justin Finch-Fletchley (GoF 18)
-> Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott […]Cedric (GoF 19)
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-> E. Macmillan | 12 August (QtA)
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-> Hufflepff’s [prefects]? […]Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (OoP 10)
-> at the Hufflepuff table Ernie Macmillan […] new prefect’s badge gleaming on his chest (OoP 11)
-> Herbology […]Hufflepuff […] Ernie Macmillan (OoP 13)
-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl {DA} (OoP 16)
-> Here come Ernie and Hannah Abbott […] at the Hufflepuff table {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ernie Macmillan was flourishing his wand unnecessarily {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Ernie Macmillan […] from Herbology […]we're prefect too(OoP 28)
-> Hannah Abbott […]Ernie Macmillan […]Herbology (OoP31)
-> DA members […]Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Hannah Abbott, Dueling Club, Cedric, prefect and DA
Justin Finch-Fletchley
-> ‘Finch-Fletchley, Justin!’ ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ (PS 7)
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-> they had double Herbology with the Hufflepuff […] a curly haired Hufflepuff boy Harry knew by sight, but had never spoken to. ‘Justin Finch-Fletchley,’ (CoS 6)
-> Justin Finch-Fletchley, the Hufflepuff boy from Herbology (CoS 9)
-> Lockhart teamed Neville with Justin Finch-Fletchley […] (CoS 11)
-> Justin was carried up (CoS 12)
-> Justin hurrying over from the Hufflepuff table (CoS 18)
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-> One Herbology lesson […] the Hufflepuffs […] Ernie Macmillan and Justin Finch-Fletchley (GoF 18)
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-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl {DA} (OoP 16)
-> sending Justin Finch-Fletchley’s wand spinning out of his hand […]while Justin Finch-Fletchley attempted to disentangle himself {DA} (OoP 18)
-> DA members […] Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Ernie Macmillan and DA
Hannah Abbott
-> ‘Abbott, Hannah!’ A pink-faced girl with blond pigtails [...] ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ shouted the hat. (PS 7)
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-> A group of Hufflepuff, who should have been in Herbology […] ‘Hannah,’ said [Ernie] (CoS 11)
-> The Herbology class […] Ernie and his friend Hannah (CoS 15)
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-> Hannah Abbott, from Hufflepuff, spent much of their next Herbology class (PoA 9)
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-> Herbology with the Hufflepuffs […]Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff (GoF13)
-> Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (GoF 19)
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-> Hufflepff’s? […]Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (OoP 10)
-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl [DA] (OoP 16)
-> Ernie and Hannah Abbott […]Hufflepuff table {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Hannah Abbott [...] Calming Draught [...] during Herbology […]Ernie Macmillan (OoP 27)
-> stamping out a pile of books for a franctic-looking Hannah Abbott (OoP 29)
-> Poor Hannah Abbott lost her head completely (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, (OoP 38)
Key words : Hannah Abbott, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Ernie Macmillan and DA
Susan Bones
-> ‘Bones, Susan!’ ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ shouted the hat again, and Susan scuttled off to sit next to Hannah. (PS 7)
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-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl [...] [Amelia Bones]’s my auntie,’ she said. ‘Im Susan Bones. {DA} (OoP 16)
-> Susan Bones, whose uncle, aunt and cousins had all die at the hands of one of the ten [...] during Herbology (OoP 25)
-> DA members […] Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Susan Bones, Hufflepuff, Hannah Abbott, the Bones family, DA and Herbology
Michael Corner
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny {DA} (OoP 16)
-> I thought that Michael Corner had a really shifty look, too […]And those Ravenclaw blokes […]‘I’ll tell Michael,’ said Ginny {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ginny was teamed with Michael Corner {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Michael Corner […] didn’t like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch […] he ran off to comfort Cho instead. {Ginny said}(OoP 38)
Key words : Michael Corner, Ravenclaw, Anthony Goldstein, Terry Boot, Ginny and DA
Anthony Goldstein
-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw (OoP 10)
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael [DA] (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Zacharias Smith […] every time he opened his mouth to disarm Anthony Goldstein […]Anthony […]Smith (OoP 18)
-> Hermione […] left the chamber with Anthony Golstein, Gregory Goyle and Daphne Greengrass. (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Key words : Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw, Michael Corner, DA and Terry Boot
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:43 pm (#424 of 491)
Back in business
(I didn't thought it would be that long!)
Michael Corner
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny {DA} (OoP 16)
-> I thought that Michael Corner had a really shifty look, too […]And those Ravenclaw blokes […]‘I’ll tell Michael,’ said Ginny {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ginny was teamed with Michael Corner {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Michael Corner […] didn’t like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch […] he ran off to comfort Cho instead. {Ginny said}(OoP 38)
Key words : Michael Corner, Ravenclaw, Anthony Goldstein, Terry Boot, Ginny and DA
Anthony Goldstein
-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw (OoP 10)
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael [DA] (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Zacharias Smith […] every time he opened his mouth to disarm Anthony Goldstein […]Anthony […]Smith (OoP 18)
-> Hermione […] left the chamber with Anthony Golstein, Gregory Goyle and Daphne Greengrass. (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Key words : Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw, Michael Corner, DA and Terry Boot
Terry Boot
-> ‘Boot, Terry!’ ‘RAVENCLAW!’ (PS 7)
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-> pinch it hard, it’ll stop bleeding in a second, Boot (CoS 11)
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-> T. Boot | 21 August (QtA)
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-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael {DA} (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Terry Boot’s wand went whizzing past Hary’s ear (OoP 18)
-> {DA} said Terry Boot […]How come you’re not in Ravenclaw? (OoP 19)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Keys words : Terry Boot, Ravenclaw DA, Anthony Golstein and Michael Corner.
Padma Patil
-> a pair of twin girls, ‘Patil’ and ‘Patil’ (PS 7)
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-> Parvati Patil’s twin’s is in Ravenclaw (GoF 12)
-> said Parvati slowly, ‘I suppose my sister might … Padma, you know … in Ravenclaw […]Ron […]ball (GoF 22)
-> {Ball}[Parvati] said. 'Padma's going to meet you in the Entrance hall.'(GoF 23)
-> Padma Patil, who seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now (GoF 27)
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-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw […] [Ron] went to the Yule Bal with Padma Patil […] She didn’t enjoy it very much […]because [Ron] wouldn’t dance with her (OoP 10)
-> {DA} Parvati and Padma Patil (OoP 16)
-> {DA} True, Neville did stun Padma Patil rather than Dean (OoP 21)
-> ‘Parkinson, Pansy – Patil, Padma – Patil, Parvati – Potter, Harry.’ (OoP 31)
Key words : Padma Patil, Parvati Patil, Ravenclaw, Ron, Yule Ball and DA
Millicent Bulstode
-> ‘Bulstrode, Millicent’ then became a Slytherin. (PS 7)
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-> {Duelling Club} Miss Bulstrode.’ […] Behind him walked a Slytherin girl who reminded Harry of a picture he’d seen in holidays with Hags. She was large and square and her heavy jaw (CoS 11)
-> Remember Millicent Bulstrode wrestling with me at the Duelling Club? (CoS 12)
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-> M. Bulstrode | 6 February (QtA)
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-> Hermione was attempting, in vain, to throw Millicent Bulstrode off her. (OoP 32)
Key words : Millicent Bulstrode, Slytherin, Dueling Club
Pansy Parkinson
-> ‘Parkinson’ (PS 7)
-> Malfoy […]Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced Slytherin girl (PS 9)
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-> Pansy Parkinson, a Slytherin girl wth a face like a pug […]Care of Magical Creature […]Draco (PoA 6)
-> Slytherin and Gryffindor […]Potion […] ‘How is it, Draco?’ simpered Pansy Parkinson (PoA 7)
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-> {Potions} Malfoy […]Hermione […]Pansy Parkinson and her gang of Slytherin girls (GoF 18)
-> Hermione […]Pansy Parkinson […] sniggering Slytherin girls (GoF 19)
-> group of Slytherins […]Pansy Parkinson was clutching Malfoy’s arm […]Pansy Parkinson gaped at [Hermione] as she walked by with Malfoy (GoF 23)
-> Care of Magical Creature […]Pansy Parkinson had to work hard to conceal how much she liked them. (GoF 26)
-> Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were standing in a huddle outside the [Potions] classroom door with Pansy Parkinson’s gang of Slytherin girls […] You might find something to interest you in there, Granger! (GoF 27)
-> Care of Magical Creatures class […]Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle […]Pansy Parkinson was wispering and giggling behind them with her gang of Slytherin girls […] [Hermione] (GoF 29)
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-> And guess who’s a Slytherin prefect […]Draco Malfoy […]Pansy Parkinson’ […]Draco Malfoy, followed by a small gang of cronies including Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson (OoP 10)
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} Draco Malfoy […] surrounded by his usual gang of Slytherin cronies. […]Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy Parkinson (OoP 13)
-> Slytherin Quidditch team […]Malfoy called […]Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson (OoP 14)
-> {Potions} {Slytherin} Malfoy made a grotesque face […]Crabbe and Goyle […]Pansy Parkinson shrieked with glee. (OoP 17)
-> [Slytherin] wiped the smirk off Pansy Parkinson’s face […] the pug-faced Pansy Parkinson right at the front of the stands, her back to the pitch as she conducted the Slytherin supporters [singing Draco’s lyrics] (OoP 19)
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} (Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson were having silent fits of laughter) (OoP 21)
-> a large gang of Slythrin girls passed them, including Pansy Parkinson (OoP 25)
-> Draco, Miss Parkinson can do the girls’ ones (OoP 27)
-> Inquisitorial Squad […]Pansy Parkinson, to Hermione’s delight, missed all her lessons the following day as she had sprouted antlers. (OoP 30)
-> Professor Flitwick called, ‘Parkinson, Pansy – Patil, Padma – Patil, Parvati – Potter, Harry.’ (OoP 31)
Key words : Pansy Parkinson, Slytherin [girls], Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Potions, Care of Magical Creatures and Hermione.
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:47 pm (#425 of 491)
Back in business
In Conclusion :
Here’s the comparasion between the Mystery Slytherin’s key words and Thoedore’s :
Mystery Slytherin
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face (OoP 21)
Theodore Nott
-> ‘Nott’ (PS 7)
--------------------------
-> T. Nott | 22 January (QtA)
--------------------------
-> Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle […]Library […] with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott […] [Goyle, Malfoy and Crabbe] he had named all their father as Death Eaters (OoP 26)
MS’s key words : Care of Magical Creature, Slytherin, stringy and Goyle
TN’s key words : Theodore Nott, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Death Eaters and weedy-looking
BZ’s key words : Blaise Zabini, Slytherin
The only shared key word between the Mystery Slyth and Nott is Goyle, Malfoy and Crabbe are more than five paragraphs away from the MS while the three of them are named twice in Nott paragraph. We notice too there no mention of Nott's House and the scene occure in a House neutral place, the library. She wanted us to associate the Mystery Slytherin with the Care of Magical Creatures, Slytherin and Goyle while she wanted us to associate Theodore Nott with the Death Eaters and their sons.
This is definitely not the way Jo re-introduce characters as we saw with the ten other minor characters above, she usually give us proper hints. If these quotes came from GoF, I could admit she overlooked it for lack of time, but since she took three years to make this one, I expect she was fully satisfied of both paragraphs.
Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 12, 2004 9:03 am (#426 of 491)
Did anybody understand that ?
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Warty Harris - Jul 12, 2004 3:34 pm (#427 of 491)
I understood it. The mystery Slytherin is not Theodore Nott if you go by the way JKR introduces people in the books Lars. However, the Mystery Slytherin is still a mystery by this formula. She never mentions anyone like this before ....hence the 400 posts
I agree that this is strange the way she has done this. She mentions Nott on her web page and in the Library. This makes me think he is important. I would think Harry could remember his name. All clues point to Nott except that if it were Nott why hide it up until book six or seven? She clearly is hiding who the Mystery Slytherin is for some reason.
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Tomoé - Jul 12, 2004 10:26 pm (#428 of 491)
Back in business
Right Lars, that was as clear as as a post-doc thesis, I admit (those seem to be understandable by only a handful of people world wide, but those who understand say there of lot of worthy informations in there ^_~).
But Warty got it right, The mystery Slytherin is not Theodore Nott if you go by the way JKR introduces people in the books, that was my point. Once they have a proper line, she give us at least 2 key words when she re-introduce them. The only exception is Terry Boot, who had a proper line then two place where only his last name is mentioned (I'd say keep an eye on Terry too). Theodore Nott, who was named twice by his last name before he get a proper line, is not likely to be the Mytery Slytherin, because JKR only linked the both of them with Goyle, while she could have used stringy in both case to subtly give us a proper hint but not giving Theo away. Instead she used stringy and weedy, not exactly opposite, but not exactly the same, while she use the same word and expression to describe minor characters to be sure she won't mess our mind.
I mean they are both near Goyle, one is stringy, the other is weedy. They could be as closely alike as Dean is from Ron! They are both near Harry, one is tall, the other is ... tall, as tall is the first adjective they both get. ^_~
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Maollelujah - Jul 13, 2004 12:03 am (#429 of 491)
Weedy and stringy pretty much means the same thing when talking about a persons appearance. There really isn't that much of difference.
(These are Webster definitions)
weedy: 3 : noticeably lean and scrawny
stringy: b : lean and sinewy in build
I do believe that she was giving us a hint that they are indeed the same person, but then again there are probably a lot of tall, lean kids at Hogwarts.
As for the library, I believe that is the only place Harry could run across Nott, Goyle, Crabbe and Malfoy, having a secret meeting. He couldn't overhear them having a secret conversation in any pro-Slytherin place, because he wouldn't have the chance. That leaves only neutral places for the clandestine meeting to take place.
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 13, 2004 8:53 am (#430 of 491)
I have never thought that Th. Nott was "The Mystery Slytherin"; if he had been, the narrator probably had told us that Harry recognized Nott as "T.M.S" - he noticed "T.M.S." BEFORE Th. Nott was introduced to the readers, remember ? That's an argument much easier to understand. Blaise Zabini still is my candidate as "T.M.S.".
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Tomoé - Jul 13, 2004 10:51 am (#431 of 491)
Back in business
Yup, that argument is much easier to understand, however, it was already mentioned and I was looking for something new (but I guess there's not much left now, with so little about the character). Blaise Zabini is my cadidate as well. ^_~
As for the weedy/stringy business, JKR always use the same words to re-introduce background characters.
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Warty Harris - Jul 13, 2004 4:41 pm (#432 of 491)
JKR could always break out of the routine. It is hard to tell which one it is for certain. I am leaning towards Zabini but Nott is probably more likely because of the background info on him. If not for that I would still say Zabini must be the Mystery Slytherin. Blaise Zabini is the only other known male Slytherin. Nott is probably a Slytherin. It is never stated anywhere in the books that he is a Slytherin. I am sure his father was one but that doesn't automatically make Theodore Nott a Slytherin.
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Maollelujah - Jul 13, 2004 7:12 pm (#433 of 491)
As for the weedy/stringy business, JKR always use the same words to re-introduce background characters.
I don't think she really does. Pansy is called 'hard-faced' (PS) and the next time we see her, she is re-introduced as a slytherin girl 'with a face-like a pug." (PoA)
Crabbe and Goyle are 'thickset' at first, next they are 'not at all little..." (PS) and by CoS they are re-introduced as 'large and thuggish..."
So I don't see how it is possible to say that she always uses the same words to re-introduce background characters.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 14, 2004 10:59 am (#434 of 491)
I think Harry not recognizing Theodore Nott as "Thestral boy" doesn't mean anything. Did he recognize Susan Bones in the Hog's Head? No. Although she had Herbology with him for the last five years. He could have thought: "A girl from his herbology class", but instead she was described as a girl with a long plait, as if Harry had never seen her before. It could be the same with Nott.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 10:42 pm (#435 of 491)
Let it snow!
We aren't really told if he recognized Nott, though, or not (er, no pun intended there). We're just told that he sees Draco, Crabbe and Goyle with a weedy looking boy who Hermione whispered is called Theodore Nott. We aren't told if Harry recognizes him at all or not.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2004 6:27 pm (#436 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
That word analysis was most impressive. I am amazed. Really!
However... I do agree that stringy and weedy mean the same thing. As such, I still lean toward Theodore Nott being the mystery Slytherin.
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Mare - Aug 13, 2004 7:06 am (#437 of 491)
Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
Tomoé, where did get Hermione and Neville thrown out?
PS, interesting analysis, I do understand it. What I find most interesting is that, according to your keywords, most of these minor characters are defined by their company, their friends instead of their appearances. While both Nott and MysterySlytherinBoy are defined by their looks.
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ex-FAHgeek - Aug 13, 2004 10:17 am (#438 of 491)
---quote--- Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
Tomoé, where did get Hermione and Neville thrown out? ---end quote---
I think the point was that the Mystery Slytherin helped Goyle through his classes so he wouldn't be thrown out, much as Hermione helped Neville.
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Warty Harris - Aug 15, 2004 12:36 pm (#439 of 491)
I am going to agree with Tomoe.
I am changing back to Blaise Zabini. After reading the Edinburgh Festival it is clear he is more important. We will be seeing him again.
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Ronan - Aug 16, 2004 4:30 am (#440 of 491)
It was great that someone asked about Blaise Zabini (though it's a big pity no one asked about Nott!!) at the reading, and I agree with you Warty Harris, it seems like he's going to be more important (well, it's easy for him cause he's only been mentioned! ) . I find specially intriguing such a short, concise answer. Actually the moment I read it I felt Blaise is going to be VERY important in HBP... you know what I mean!
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Warty Harris - Aug 16, 2004 4:16 pm (#441 of 491)
she didn't even pause in her answer. I wonder if he is the Mystery Slytherin. He may play a roll other then that of the boy that could see thestrals as well but as pointed out in all the previous posts if it was Nott why not say in Order of the Phoenix.
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Warty Harris - Aug 17, 2004 8:54 pm (#442 of 491)
Here is the quote from J.K. Rowling's web site.
It has recently been confirmed that Blaise Zabini is in fact a male character. Will we see more of him in the next few books?
That’s correct. You do.
I think Blaise may be the Mystery Slytherin because he has not been mentioned in the books at all except the chapter with the sorting ceremony. Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
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Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 11:53 pm (#443 of 491)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
Maybe Malfoy got tired of Crabbe or Goyle and wanted new company... I know this is pushing it but could it be seeing what happened to their fathers, DE kids would want to lie low and not hang around each other very much at the start of HBP?
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haymoni - Aug 18, 2004 5:48 am (#444 of 491)
If Draco and the other Nibblers do not return to Hogwarts in Book 6, we'll see some other Slytherins come forward - hopefully in support of Harry.
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Archangel - Aug 18, 2004 8:09 am (#445 of 491)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Nibblers?! Haha! That made me laugh Haymoni. Take 10 points Draco and the Nibblers... sounds like a band doesn't it?
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Paul Filippelli - Aug 18, 2004 10:37 pm (#446 of 491)
Blaise Zambini...
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haymoni - Aug 21, 2004 6:18 pm (#447 of 491)
I don't recall who it was that coined the phrase "Death Nibblers" (the children of the known Death Eaters) but I really like it.
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Dr Filibuster - Aug 22, 2004 1:59 am (#448 of 491)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Haymoni, thank Tim, aka Timrew for Death Nibblers.
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Ronan - Aug 22, 2004 11:41 am (#449 of 491)
It's a really funny idea =) I wonder if JKR knows about it and what funny comment she'd make about it!
Edit: "about it" twice in he same phrase, how poor =/
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haymoni - Aug 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#450 of 491)
Should have known it was Timothy!
Bring on Blaise Zambini - gotta know more!
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Let it snow!
The mention I was thinking of had something to do with Millicent calling Hermione something and the narrator first remarking that it was one of the girls who flocks around Pansy and then names her Millicent afterward..... Can't think where it is though. I'm still looking....
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Tomoé - May 20, 2004 8:15 pm (#402 of 491)
Back in business
Hum? In GoF maybe ... I didn't read that book as often as the others. Definitly not In PS, CoS or PoA. I'll check tonight.
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Catherine - May 21, 2004 6:54 am (#403 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I don't think we have ever seen Millicent Bullstrode speak in the novels, just like we haven't seen the "real" Crabbe and Goyle speak (JKR has them "chuckle trollishly" and such). The only time Crabbe and Goyle appear to truly talk is when Harry and Ron impersonate them by using polyjuice potion. Other than that, they never appear to say anything besides grunts or laughing.
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Prefect Marcus - May 21, 2004 9:23 am (#404 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
The only three Slytherins who speak are Draco, Pansy, and Marcus Flint when he protested Harry swallowing the Snitch. No other Slytherin has uttered a word.
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Tomoé - May 21, 2004 9:47 am (#405 of 491)
Back in business
That was my impression too Catherine, but I'll check GoF and OoP nevertheless. I checked the Lexicon and it doesn't look like I missed anything. (PS 7, CoS 11-12, OoP 32 and QtA)
Edit : Thanks Marcus
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 11:53 am (#406 of 491)
Back in business
I scanned through the 5 books and didn't find any Slytherin speaking beside Draco, Pansy and Flint.
However, I believe we will see more of them in the next book, we used to heard of only four of them a book from books 1 to 4 Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and a Slytherin girl, either Pansy or Millicent (I didn't use the mention from the sorting chapter, PS7). But in OoP, we have Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent and the Mystery Slytherin, plus maybe Theodore and Daphne. Six to eight Slytherins in Harry's year in OoP, as many as the Gryffindors, while we met only 4 Ravenclaws and 5 Hufflepuffs (if Michael and Zacharias are in Harry's year).
It sounds to me like she introduced as many Slytherins as she can to prevent characters to come out of the blue when we'll read about the internal dynamics of Salazar's House in book 6.
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Ladybug220 - Jun 15, 2004 11:56 am (#407 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Edited by Jun 15, 2004 11:57 am
Since the gender of Blaise Zambini has been disputed in this thread (if my memory is correct) then y'all should know that it has been officially stated by JKR to the Portugese translators that Blaise is male. Here is the update in the Lexicon with Steve's explanation:
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 1:07 pm (#408 of 491)
Back in business
Great! He was my #1 suspect to be the Mystery Slytherin and now we know for sure he's a boy, my conviction is stronger still. ^_^
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Warty Harris - Jun 15, 2004 3:55 pm (#409 of 491)
The mystery Slytherin has to be one of the two(Blaise Zabini or Theodore Nott). I know there are suppose to be 1,000 students but I think she (J.K. Rowling) made that number up off the top of her head. It appears that there are no more than five girls and five boys per year to a house. Sometimes there are fewer, like with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs and in Harry's year it appears only three Gryffindor girls exist.
Since we know Blaise is a boy now, that means there are five boys in Slytherin that year. We have never heard of there being more than ten students so it has to be one of these two.
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Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 4:07 pm (#410 of 491)
Back in business
It is not yet confirmed that Theodore Nott is a Slytherin (likely, but not confirmed) so Blaise is the only confirmated Slytherin boy beside Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle and the only safe candidate to be the Mystery Slytherin.
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Gina R Snape - Jun 15, 2004 10:05 pm (#411 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Wasn't Theodore Nott confirmed a Slytherin on JKR's official website? I mean, there was that bit she said she'd always wanted to write about Theodore and Draco having a chat while their fathers met. And she mentions that Theodore is Draco's equal, but not compelled to be part of his crowd. I got the distinct impression they were definitely in the same house.
Also, Ladybug you beat me to it!!!! I always thought Blaise was a male. At last, now, we know for sure!
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 8:29 am (#412 of 491)
Back in business
There's nothing written like "Theodore Nott is a Slytherin", the whole context suggest it yes, but there no confirmation.
Talking of Theo, how do you think his mother die and, more important still, when do you think his mother die?
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Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2004 10:22 am (#413 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, if Theodore is the mystery Slytherin, then we know he can see the thestrals. That kind of lends itself to the idea of her being killed in front of him perhaps. Maybe something to do with DE business, hence Theodore not wanting to be part of any gang? Maybe he sees all the destruction it can cause and thinks "Nah, I'll just go it alone..."
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Ladybug220 - Jun 16, 2004 2:00 pm (#414 of 491)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Sorry Gina!
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 2:56 pm (#415 of 491)
Back in business
If it's something to do with the DE's business, Theo should have been too young for the death to sink in, like Harry he couldn't see the thestrals even if his mother died in front of him. And I found it a little too convenient that JKR revealed Theo has lost his mother but didn't say how or when. There still the stringy/weedy business and the absence of link between the two scene that bug me.
My bet is Mrs Nott was killed by the Aurors while on duty for the DE, not because she fought back, just because the Aurors had the right to use unforgivable curses. Or maybe worst, she was killed because the Aurors believed her to be a DE.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 16, 2004 4:02 pm (#416 of 491)
"Anyone can cook"
There is at least one other Mystery Slytherin.
In the final showdown in Umbridge's office, Millicent has Hermione pinned, and there is an unnamed "large Slytherin Girl" holding on to Ginny, I believe. Or is it Luna. I can't remember. There might even be two unamed Slytherin girls. I will have to check later.
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Warty Harris - Jun 16, 2004 5:02 pm (#417 of 491)
There is at least on more mystery Slytherin girl if there are five girls and five boys. There are the five boys we know of and Tracey Davis, Daphne Greengrass, Millicent Bulstrode and of course Pansy Parkinson. If there are ten in each house then there is another girl. This theory means that there are two other Gryffindor girls.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 5:09 pm (#418 of 491)
Let it snow!
You know, Nott's mom could've just, well, died. Neville said he saw his grandfather die (which is the reason he can see the threstrals) but that doesn't mean he was murdered. We hear that Nott's dad is elderly, maybe his mom was too. Or, maybe she got sick (like Crouch Jr's mom was) and died from illness. He could've seen it, been old enough for it to sink it, been old enough for it to affect his personality (make him a loner, etc), and allow him to see the threstrals, without it ever being connected to his dad being a DE....
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Tomoé - Jun 16, 2004 11:20 pm (#419 of 491)
Back in business
Wasn't the "large Slytherin Girl" a sixth-year?
Yes Sarah, she could have die of illness, boring but true.
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Mare - Jun 17, 2004 7:50 am (#420 of 491)
If there are ten in each house then there is another girl. This theory means that there are two other Gryffindor girls.
Because the Slytherins have more then ten members, the Gryffindors should have to?
I don't think so, I would think it more likely that Gryffindor has 8 members and Slytherin 12, together making 20 (20 broomsticks at flying class)
And seeing how Harry had memebers of several years in his army, I think it is most likely that the IS has too. So I'm with tomoé on this one, the large girl was probably a sixth year.
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Dumbledore - Jul 2, 2004 2:51 pm (#421 of 491)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Tomoe: If it's something to do with the DE's business, Theo should have been too young for the death to sink in, like Harry he couldn't see the thestrals even if his mother died in front of him.
Sorry to be nitpicky, but according to a JKR chat (sorry, I don't have the exact reference) Harry didn't actually see Lily die. JKR said that he was in his cot at the time and didn't actually see it happen.
I completely agree with you, Marè.
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Tomoé - Jul 4, 2004 9:19 pm (#422 of 491)
Back in business
You're right Dumbledore. ^_^
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:40 pm (#423 of 491)
Back in business
Here's my ultimate evidence to show Theodore Nott is not the mystery Slytherin. Feel free to skip the two first posts to the in conclusion part, the rest is the analyse of JKR's way to re-introduce 10 minor characters in every chapter they are in.
Ernie Macmillan
-> Dueling Club […] Up you get Macmillan (CoS 11)
-> the Hufflepuffs who should have been in Herbology […]Justin
[…]Ernie […]Hannah […]We were all [at the Dueling Club] […] That will do, Macmillan (CoS 11)
-> {Justin} Ernie Macmillan of Hufflepuff […]Dueling Club (CoS 13)
-> Justin […] Ernie Macmillan asked Harry […] in Herbology (CoS 14)
-> Herbology […]Justin […]Ernie Macmillan […] and his friend Hannah (CoS 15)
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-> Ernie McMillan told me she’s never missind a Muggle Studies class (PoA 12)
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-> Next they were hailed by Ernie Macmillan, a Hufflepuff fourth-year (GoF 7)
-> Ernie Macmillan of Hufflepuff […]Cedric (GoF 15)
-> One Herbology lesson […] the Hufflepuffs […]Cedric […]Ernie Macmillan and Justin Finch-Fletchley (GoF 18)
-> Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott […]Cedric (GoF 19)
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-> E. Macmillan | 12 August (QtA)
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-> Hufflepff’s [prefects]? […]Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (OoP 10)
-> at the Hufflepuff table Ernie Macmillan […] new prefect’s badge gleaming on his chest (OoP 11)
-> Herbology […]Hufflepuff […] Ernie Macmillan (OoP 13)
-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl {DA} (OoP 16)
-> Here come Ernie and Hannah Abbott […] at the Hufflepuff table {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ernie Macmillan was flourishing his wand unnecessarily {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Ernie Macmillan […] from Herbology […]we're prefect too(OoP 28)
-> Hannah Abbott […]Ernie Macmillan […]Herbology (OoP31)
-> DA members […]Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Hannah Abbott, Dueling Club, Cedric, prefect and DA
Justin Finch-Fletchley
-> ‘Finch-Fletchley, Justin!’ ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ (PS 7)
--------------------------
-> they had double Herbology with the Hufflepuff […] a curly haired Hufflepuff boy Harry knew by sight, but had never spoken to. ‘Justin Finch-Fletchley,’ (CoS 6)
-> Justin Finch-Fletchley, the Hufflepuff boy from Herbology (CoS 9)
-> Lockhart teamed Neville with Justin Finch-Fletchley […] (CoS 11)
-> Justin was carried up (CoS 12)
-> Justin hurrying over from the Hufflepuff table (CoS 18)
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-> One Herbology lesson […] the Hufflepuffs […] Ernie Macmillan and Justin Finch-Fletchley (GoF 18)
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-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl {DA} (OoP 16)
-> sending Justin Finch-Fletchley’s wand spinning out of his hand […]while Justin Finch-Fletchley attempted to disentangle himself {DA} (OoP 18)
-> DA members […] Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Ernie Macmillan and DA
Hannah Abbott
-> ‘Abbott, Hannah!’ A pink-faced girl with blond pigtails [...] ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ shouted the hat. (PS 7)
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-> A group of Hufflepuff, who should have been in Herbology […] ‘Hannah,’ said [Ernie] (CoS 11)
-> The Herbology class […] Ernie and his friend Hannah (CoS 15)
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-> Hannah Abbott, from Hufflepuff, spent much of their next Herbology class (PoA 9)
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-> Herbology with the Hufflepuffs […]Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff (GoF13)
-> Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (GoF 19)
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-> Hufflepff’s? […]Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott (OoP 10)
-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl [DA] (OoP 16)
-> Ernie and Hannah Abbott […]Hufflepuff table {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Hannah Abbott [...] Calming Draught [...] during Herbology […]Ernie Macmillan (OoP 27)
-> stamping out a pile of books for a franctic-looking Hannah Abbott (OoP 29)
-> Poor Hannah Abbott lost her head completely (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, (OoP 38)
Key words : Hannah Abbott, Hufflepuff, Herbology, Ernie Macmillan and DA
Susan Bones
-> ‘Bones, Susan!’ ‘HUFFLEPUFF!’ shouted the hat again, and Susan scuttled off to sit next to Hannah. (PS 7)
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-> Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl [...] [Amelia Bones]’s my auntie,’ she said. ‘Im Susan Bones. {DA} (OoP 16)
-> Susan Bones, whose uncle, aunt and cousins had all die at the hands of one of the ten [...] during Herbology (OoP 25)
-> DA members […] Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley (OoP 38)
Key words : Susan Bones, Hufflepuff, Hannah Abbott, the Bones family, DA and Herbology
Michael Corner
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny {DA} (OoP 16)
-> I thought that Michael Corner had a really shifty look, too […]And those Ravenclaw blokes […]‘I’ll tell Michael,’ said Ginny {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ginny was teamed with Michael Corner {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Michael Corner […] didn’t like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch […] he ran off to comfort Cho instead. {Ginny said}(OoP 38)
Key words : Michael Corner, Ravenclaw, Anthony Goldstein, Terry Boot, Ginny and DA
Anthony Goldstein
-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw (OoP 10)
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael [DA] (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Zacharias Smith […] every time he opened his mouth to disarm Anthony Goldstein […]Anthony […]Smith (OoP 18)
-> Hermione […] left the chamber with Anthony Golstein, Gregory Goyle and Daphne Greengrass. (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Key words : Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw, Michael Corner, DA and Terry Boot
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:43 pm (#424 of 491)
Back in business
(I didn't thought it would be that long!)
Michael Corner
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny {DA} (OoP 16)
-> I thought that Michael Corner had a really shifty look, too […]And those Ravenclaw blokes […]‘I’ll tell Michael,’ said Ginny {DA} (OoP 17)
-> Ginny was teamed with Michael Corner {DA} (OoP 18)
-> Michael Corner […] didn’t like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch […] he ran off to comfort Cho instead. {Ginny said}(OoP 38)
Key words : Michael Corner, Ravenclaw, Anthony Goldstein, Terry Boot, Ginny and DA
Anthony Goldstein
-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw (OoP 10)
-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael [DA] (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Zacharias Smith […] every time he opened his mouth to disarm Anthony Goldstein […]Anthony […]Smith (OoP 18)
-> Hermione […] left the chamber with Anthony Golstein, Gregory Goyle and Daphne Greengrass. (OoP 31)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Key words : Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw, Michael Corner, DA and Terry Boot
Terry Boot
-> ‘Boot, Terry!’ ‘RAVENCLAW!’ (PS 7)
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-> pinch it hard, it’ll stop bleeding in a second, Boot (CoS 11)
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-> T. Boot | 21 August (QtA)
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-> Three Ravenclaw boys he was pretty sure were called Anthony Goldstein, Micheal Corner and Terry Boot {DA} (OoP 16)
-> And those Ravenclaw blokes […]Michael {DA} (OoP 17)
-> {DA} Terry Boot’s wand went whizzing past Hary’s ear (OoP 18)
-> {DA} said Terry Boot […]How come you’re not in Ravenclaw? (OoP 19)
-> DA members […]Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (OoP 38)
Keys words : Terry Boot, Ravenclaw DA, Anthony Golstein and Michael Corner.
Padma Patil
-> a pair of twin girls, ‘Patil’ and ‘Patil’ (PS 7)
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-> Parvati Patil’s twin’s is in Ravenclaw (GoF 12)
-> said Parvati slowly, ‘I suppose my sister might … Padma, you know … in Ravenclaw […]Ron […]ball (GoF 22)
-> {Ball}[Parvati] said. 'Padma's going to meet you in the Entrance hall.'(GoF 23)
-> Padma Patil, who seemed to be a lot keener on Ron now (GoF 27)
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-> Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil for Ravenclaw […] [Ron] went to the Yule Bal with Padma Patil […] She didn’t enjoy it very much […]because [Ron] wouldn’t dance with her (OoP 10)
-> {DA} Parvati and Padma Patil (OoP 16)
-> {DA} True, Neville did stun Padma Patil rather than Dean (OoP 21)
-> ‘Parkinson, Pansy – Patil, Padma – Patil, Parvati – Potter, Harry.’ (OoP 31)
Key words : Padma Patil, Parvati Patil, Ravenclaw, Ron, Yule Ball and DA
Millicent Bulstode
-> ‘Bulstrode, Millicent’ then became a Slytherin. (PS 7)
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-> {Duelling Club} Miss Bulstrode.’ […] Behind him walked a Slytherin girl who reminded Harry of a picture he’d seen in holidays with Hags. She was large and square and her heavy jaw (CoS 11)
-> Remember Millicent Bulstrode wrestling with me at the Duelling Club? (CoS 12)
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-> M. Bulstrode | 6 February (QtA)
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-> Hermione was attempting, in vain, to throw Millicent Bulstrode off her. (OoP 32)
Key words : Millicent Bulstrode, Slytherin, Dueling Club
Pansy Parkinson
-> ‘Parkinson’ (PS 7)
-> Malfoy […]Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced Slytherin girl (PS 9)
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-> Pansy Parkinson, a Slytherin girl wth a face like a pug […]Care of Magical Creature […]Draco (PoA 6)
-> Slytherin and Gryffindor […]Potion […] ‘How is it, Draco?’ simpered Pansy Parkinson (PoA 7)
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-> {Potions} Malfoy […]Hermione […]Pansy Parkinson and her gang of Slytherin girls (GoF 18)
-> Hermione […]Pansy Parkinson […] sniggering Slytherin girls (GoF 19)
-> group of Slytherins […]Pansy Parkinson was clutching Malfoy’s arm […]Pansy Parkinson gaped at [Hermione] as she walked by with Malfoy (GoF 23)
-> Care of Magical Creature […]Pansy Parkinson had to work hard to conceal how much she liked them. (GoF 26)
-> Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were standing in a huddle outside the [Potions] classroom door with Pansy Parkinson’s gang of Slytherin girls […] You might find something to interest you in there, Granger! (GoF 27)
-> Care of Magical Creatures class […]Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle […]Pansy Parkinson was wispering and giggling behind them with her gang of Slytherin girls […] [Hermione] (GoF 29)
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-> And guess who’s a Slytherin prefect […]Draco Malfoy […]Pansy Parkinson’ […]Draco Malfoy, followed by a small gang of cronies including Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson (OoP 10)
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} Draco Malfoy […] surrounded by his usual gang of Slytherin cronies. […]Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy Parkinson (OoP 13)
-> Slytherin Quidditch team […]Malfoy called […]Crabbe, Goyle and Pansy Parkinson (OoP 14)
-> {Potions} {Slytherin} Malfoy made a grotesque face […]Crabbe and Goyle […]Pansy Parkinson shrieked with glee. (OoP 17)
-> [Slytherin] wiped the smirk off Pansy Parkinson’s face […] the pug-faced Pansy Parkinson right at the front of the stands, her back to the pitch as she conducted the Slytherin supporters [singing Draco’s lyrics] (OoP 19)
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} (Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson were having silent fits of laughter) (OoP 21)
-> a large gang of Slythrin girls passed them, including Pansy Parkinson (OoP 25)
-> Draco, Miss Parkinson can do the girls’ ones (OoP 27)
-> Inquisitorial Squad […]Pansy Parkinson, to Hermione’s delight, missed all her lessons the following day as she had sprouted antlers. (OoP 30)
-> Professor Flitwick called, ‘Parkinson, Pansy – Patil, Padma – Patil, Parvati – Potter, Harry.’ (OoP 31)
Key words : Pansy Parkinson, Slytherin [girls], Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Potions, Care of Magical Creatures and Hermione.
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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 5:47 pm (#425 of 491)
Back in business
In Conclusion :
Here’s the comparasion between the Mystery Slytherin’s key words and Thoedore’s :
Mystery Slytherin
-> {Care of Magical Creatures} a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face (OoP 21)
Theodore Nott
-> ‘Nott’ (PS 7)
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-> T. Nott | 22 January (QtA)
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-> Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle […]Library […] with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott […] [Goyle, Malfoy and Crabbe] he had named all their father as Death Eaters (OoP 26)
MS’s key words : Care of Magical Creature, Slytherin, stringy and Goyle
TN’s key words : Theodore Nott, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Death Eaters and weedy-looking
BZ’s key words : Blaise Zabini, Slytherin
The only shared key word between the Mystery Slyth and Nott is Goyle, Malfoy and Crabbe are more than five paragraphs away from the MS while the three of them are named twice in Nott paragraph. We notice too there no mention of Nott's House and the scene occure in a House neutral place, the library. She wanted us to associate the Mystery Slytherin with the Care of Magical Creatures, Slytherin and Goyle while she wanted us to associate Theodore Nott with the Death Eaters and their sons.
This is definitely not the way Jo re-introduce characters as we saw with the ten other minor characters above, she usually give us proper hints. If these quotes came from GoF, I could admit she overlooked it for lack of time, but since she took three years to make this one, I expect she was fully satisfied of both paragraphs.
Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 12, 2004 9:03 am (#426 of 491)
Did anybody understand that ?
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Warty Harris - Jul 12, 2004 3:34 pm (#427 of 491)
I understood it. The mystery Slytherin is not Theodore Nott if you go by the way JKR introduces people in the books Lars. However, the Mystery Slytherin is still a mystery by this formula. She never mentions anyone like this before ....hence the 400 posts
I agree that this is strange the way she has done this. She mentions Nott on her web page and in the Library. This makes me think he is important. I would think Harry could remember his name. All clues point to Nott except that if it were Nott why hide it up until book six or seven? She clearly is hiding who the Mystery Slytherin is for some reason.
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Tomoé - Jul 12, 2004 10:26 pm (#428 of 491)
Back in business
Right Lars, that was as clear as as a post-doc thesis, I admit (those seem to be understandable by only a handful of people world wide, but those who understand say there of lot of worthy informations in there ^_~).
But Warty got it right, The mystery Slytherin is not Theodore Nott if you go by the way JKR introduces people in the books, that was my point. Once they have a proper line, she give us at least 2 key words when she re-introduce them. The only exception is Terry Boot, who had a proper line then two place where only his last name is mentioned (I'd say keep an eye on Terry too). Theodore Nott, who was named twice by his last name before he get a proper line, is not likely to be the Mytery Slytherin, because JKR only linked the both of them with Goyle, while she could have used stringy in both case to subtly give us a proper hint but not giving Theo away. Instead she used stringy and weedy, not exactly opposite, but not exactly the same, while she use the same word and expression to describe minor characters to be sure she won't mess our mind.
I mean they are both near Goyle, one is stringy, the other is weedy. They could be as closely alike as Dean is from Ron! They are both near Harry, one is tall, the other is ... tall, as tall is the first adjective they both get. ^_~
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Maollelujah - Jul 13, 2004 12:03 am (#429 of 491)
Weedy and stringy pretty much means the same thing when talking about a persons appearance. There really isn't that much of difference.
(These are Webster definitions)
weedy: 3 : noticeably lean and scrawny
stringy: b : lean and sinewy in build
I do believe that she was giving us a hint that they are indeed the same person, but then again there are probably a lot of tall, lean kids at Hogwarts.
As for the library, I believe that is the only place Harry could run across Nott, Goyle, Crabbe and Malfoy, having a secret meeting. He couldn't overhear them having a secret conversation in any pro-Slytherin place, because he wouldn't have the chance. That leaves only neutral places for the clandestine meeting to take place.
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 13, 2004 8:53 am (#430 of 491)
I have never thought that Th. Nott was "The Mystery Slytherin"; if he had been, the narrator probably had told us that Harry recognized Nott as "T.M.S" - he noticed "T.M.S." BEFORE Th. Nott was introduced to the readers, remember ? That's an argument much easier to understand. Blaise Zabini still is my candidate as "T.M.S.".
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Tomoé - Jul 13, 2004 10:51 am (#431 of 491)
Back in business
Yup, that argument is much easier to understand, however, it was already mentioned and I was looking for something new (but I guess there's not much left now, with so little about the character). Blaise Zabini is my cadidate as well. ^_~
As for the weedy/stringy business, JKR always use the same words to re-introduce background characters.
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Warty Harris - Jul 13, 2004 4:41 pm (#432 of 491)
JKR could always break out of the routine. It is hard to tell which one it is for certain. I am leaning towards Zabini but Nott is probably more likely because of the background info on him. If not for that I would still say Zabini must be the Mystery Slytherin. Blaise Zabini is the only other known male Slytherin. Nott is probably a Slytherin. It is never stated anywhere in the books that he is a Slytherin. I am sure his father was one but that doesn't automatically make Theodore Nott a Slytherin.
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Maollelujah - Jul 13, 2004 7:12 pm (#433 of 491)
As for the weedy/stringy business, JKR always use the same words to re-introduce background characters.
I don't think she really does. Pansy is called 'hard-faced' (PS) and the next time we see her, she is re-introduced as a slytherin girl 'with a face-like a pug." (PoA)
Crabbe and Goyle are 'thickset' at first, next they are 'not at all little..." (PS) and by CoS they are re-introduced as 'large and thuggish..."
So I don't see how it is possible to say that she always uses the same words to re-introduce background characters.
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Neville Longbottom - Jul 14, 2004 10:59 am (#434 of 491)
I think Harry not recognizing Theodore Nott as "Thestral boy" doesn't mean anything. Did he recognize Susan Bones in the Hog's Head? No. Although she had Herbology with him for the last five years. He could have thought: "A girl from his herbology class", but instead she was described as a girl with a long plait, as if Harry had never seen her before. It could be the same with Nott.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 10:42 pm (#435 of 491)
Let it snow!
We aren't really told if he recognized Nott, though, or not (er, no pun intended there). We're just told that he sees Draco, Crabbe and Goyle with a weedy looking boy who Hermione whispered is called Theodore Nott. We aren't told if Harry recognizes him at all or not.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2004 6:27 pm (#436 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
That word analysis was most impressive. I am amazed. Really!
However... I do agree that stringy and weedy mean the same thing. As such, I still lean toward Theodore Nott being the mystery Slytherin.
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Mare - Aug 13, 2004 7:06 am (#437 of 491)
Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
Tomoé, where did get Hermione and Neville thrown out?
PS, interesting analysis, I do understand it. What I find most interesting is that, according to your keywords, most of these minor characters are defined by their company, their friends instead of their appearances. While both Nott and MysterySlytherinBoy are defined by their looks.
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ex-FAHgeek - Aug 13, 2004 10:17 am (#438 of 491)
---quote--- Now, an interresting side note, she placed the MS behind Goyle. Could that mean the MS is the reason why Goyle wasn't thrown out after his first year, à la Hermione and Neville?
Tomoé, where did get Hermione and Neville thrown out? ---end quote---
I think the point was that the Mystery Slytherin helped Goyle through his classes so he wouldn't be thrown out, much as Hermione helped Neville.
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Warty Harris - Aug 15, 2004 12:36 pm (#439 of 491)
I am going to agree with Tomoe.
I am changing back to Blaise Zabini. After reading the Edinburgh Festival it is clear he is more important. We will be seeing him again.
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Ronan - Aug 16, 2004 4:30 am (#440 of 491)
It was great that someone asked about Blaise Zabini (though it's a big pity no one asked about Nott!!) at the reading, and I agree with you Warty Harris, it seems like he's going to be more important (well, it's easy for him cause he's only been mentioned!
) . I find specially intriguing such a short, concise answer. Actually the moment I read it I felt Blaise is going to be VERY important in HBP... you know what I mean! - - - - - - - - - -
Warty Harris - Aug 16, 2004 4:16 pm (#441 of 491)
she didn't even pause in her answer. I wonder if he is the Mystery Slytherin. He may play a roll other then that of the boy that could see thestrals as well but as pointed out in all the previous posts if it was Nott why not say in Order of the Phoenix.
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Warty Harris - Aug 17, 2004 8:54 pm (#442 of 491)
Here is the quote from J.K. Rowling's web site.
It has recently been confirmed that Blaise Zabini is in fact a male character. Will we see more of him in the next few books?
That’s correct. You do.
I think Blaise may be the Mystery Slytherin because he has not been mentioned in the books at all except the chapter with the sorting ceremony. Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
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Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 11:53 pm (#443 of 491)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
Maybe Malfoy got tired of Crabbe or Goyle and wanted new company... I know this is pushing it but could it be seeing what happened to their fathers, DE kids would want to lie low and not hang around each other very much at the start of HBP?
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haymoni - Aug 18, 2004 5:48 am (#444 of 491)
If Draco and the other Nibblers do not return to Hogwarts in Book 6, we'll see some other Slytherins come forward - hopefully in support of Harry.
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Archangel - Aug 18, 2004 8:09 am (#445 of 491)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Nibblers?! Haha! That made me laugh Haymoni. Take 10 points
Draco and the Nibblers... sounds like a band doesn't it? - - - - - - - - - -
Paul Filippelli - Aug 18, 2004 10:37 pm (#446 of 491)
Blaise Zambini...
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haymoni - Aug 21, 2004 6:18 pm (#447 of 491)
I don't recall who it was that coined the phrase "Death Nibblers" (the children of the known Death Eaters) but I really like it.
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Dr Filibuster - Aug 22, 2004 1:59 am (#448 of 491)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Haymoni, thank Tim, aka Timrew for Death Nibblers.
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Ronan - Aug 22, 2004 11:41 am (#449 of 491)
It's a really funny idea =) I wonder if JKR knows about it and what funny comment she'd make about it!
Edit: "about it" twice in he same phrase, how poor =/
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haymoni - Aug 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#450 of 491)
Should have known it was Timothy!
Bring on Blaise Zambini - gotta know more!
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The Mystery Slytherin (OotP) (Post 451 to 491)
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Tomoé - Aug 31, 2004 11:19 pm (#451 of 491)
Back in business
Thanks ex-FAHgeek to get what meant and clarifying it while I was away (I should stop to have a life beside Harry Potter ^_^). And thanks Gina and Marè for defending the relevance of analysis, I was doubting it had any interest at all.
Warty Harris -> [Blaise Zabini] has not been mentioned in the books at all except the chapter with the sorting ceremony. Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
I believe with the four Slytherin boys clearly associated with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, the Slytherins will become unwilling objects of a gruesome sort of reflected fame. Therefore, Harry will have more hindsight of what's going on in Slytherin house and who really are those silent Slytherins. If the Mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini, we heard of 8 Slytherin students in Harry's year in OoP (MCG, Pansy, Millicent, Theo, Blaise and Daphne), ex equo with Gryffindor. It sounds like JKR was setting her actors for to next book.
Now what will be Zabini's role in it? what can he bring to the story?
First, if it's true there are only five boys in Harry's year, Blaise is the only boy who isn't the son of a Death Eater. He could easily be unfairly ostracized, especially if he find himself the only Slytherin in a class or with Slytherin girls that doesn't support Death Nibblers. I bet it will happen in CoMC and Harry will be the only one daring to team up with Blaise, he will do it because he know what it is to be left out, it happened too often to him back to the Muggle school. They'll soon get along well and Blaise will become Harry's link to the Slytherin as Ernie is Harry's link to the Hufflepuff.
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Ronan - Sep 4, 2004 9:27 am (#452 of 491)
That sounds great,Tomoè. I had hoped it'd be Theodore the one that would somehow befriend Harry (or something close) but after reading your theory Blaise sound much more likely, even obvious I'd say. Just one thing: what does CoMC mean?
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Warty Harris - Sep 4, 2004 9:58 am (#453 of 491)
CoMC stands for Care of Magical Creatures. The Mystery Slytherin could still be Nott. Remember he is a loner and may not follow Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He may also have a change of heart. I think it is more likely Blaise Zabini but Nott may surprise us. Either way I think both boys will play a role in the upcoming books.
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Tomoé - Sep 6, 2004 6:25 pm (#454 of 491)
Back in business
I believe both Zabini and Nott will surprise us, but I don't think Theodore will be the one befriending Harry, because he does not feel the need to join gangs and he's a loner. In fact, I suspect Theo's absence of need to join gangs extend to Voldemort's gang. He's clever, I think he is the kind of people that want to make their own opinion on things. Draco consider him as his equal, I think that will play somehow.
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Warty Harris - Sep 8, 2004 6:14 pm (#455 of 491)
Yes, I think there are two Slytherins that are mysterious. I find it hard to believe that Nott would befriend Harry after his father is put in Azkaban but this may be where Nott shows an independent streak.
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Tomoé - Sep 8, 2004 10:47 pm (#456 of 491)
Back in business
I think Theodore is clever enough to know it was his father's fault, he shouldn't had joined Voldemort's gang in the first place. I don't think he'll try to take revenge on Harry, and I believe he'll find Draco's attempts to take revenge quite childish.
(Yes, I have faith in Theo ^_^ )
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El Cronista de Salem - Sep 22, 2004 12:20 pm (#457 of 491)
I think he is Theo, because his mother is dead (poor).
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Tomoé - Sep 22, 2004 12:57 pm (#458 of 491)
Back in business
The main point against Theo is that Harry didn't make a connection between the Mystery Slytherin scene and the Quibbler one. There no mention of the thestrals, the CoMC lessons or even the Slytherin House, just a link with the Death Nibblers and the Death Eater. Jo clearly don't want us to link the two scene together. Hint or red herring? Your guess is as good as mine.
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Ronan - Sep 25, 2004 5:18 am (#459 of 491)
Leaving aside wether the Mystery Slytherin is Nott or Zabini, what was your impression of that Thestral scene? Is he a nice guy or not? or Nott (pardon the pun, it's so easy doing plays of words with Theodore I can't resist!! We just got a phrase to judge, but my general feeling wasn't really good. Harry was relieved to know the truth, Neville was very surprised, and the MS had an "expression of great distaste"... now that doesn't sound too friendly, does it?
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rambkowalczyk - Sep 25, 2004 6:33 am (#460 of 491)
The great expression of distaste could be that he was grossed out watching the animal eat raw meat.
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Tomoé - Sep 25, 2004 7:54 pm (#461 of 491)
Back in business
There were only two other people who seem to be able to see them : a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face; and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail. (OoP ch.21 pp.393)
I'm under the impression that Neville wasn't surprise, to follow the swishing progress of the tail it's something you do with a real horse. He did sound taken aback when Umbridge questioned him, but I think it was because of Umbridge herself. He's more neutral towards the Thestral than are either Harry or the MS, like the Thestrals were part of the "furnitures" that make Hogwarts Hogwarts. Of course, he was already alone with his Gran in PS so I would say he have seen those for seven times already at the very least.
Harry was pretty excited to learn what the Thestrals were. He have seen those ... twice I think ... since the beginning of the school, he was eager to know what they were.
And then, there's the MS. First, he looked at them with great distaste on his face, but no curiosity. He either :
Saw them many times over the years and is used to them
Saw them for the first time in September then read Hogwarts: a History / ask someone who read it
Saw them for the very first time in December and didn't realise only a few could see them.
Secondly, it could be real distaste or fake distaste If the distaste is real, either he doesn't like to see them eat or he doesn't like their apparence. He could be either nice or bad guy. If the distaste is faked, this shows a disapproval towards Hagrid, either because he want to fit in Malfoy's gang or because he think Hagrid's a lame teacher or a lame human being. In either case, that's not a reaction of a nice guy.
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Gina R Snape - Sep 25, 2004 9:09 pm (#462 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think the fact that JKR says he was watching the horse eating with an expression of distate is the important point here. If you grammatically deconstruct the sentence, it follows that the eating was what disgusted him.
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Ronan - Sep 26, 2004 4:44 am (#463 of 491)
Wow, great analysis, Tomoé. Actually you have pointed something I hadn't thought of: we don't how long has the MS been able to see Thestrals. Now we think of it, isn't it weird how Hagrid avoids commenting how that guy can see them too? As it's been said, we don't know exactly why Neville sees them, but Hagrid already imagined he could. Hagrid is Harry's friend, and everybody knows about Cedric. But with this slytherin, he chooses not to comment. Is it because:
a) Being the son of a known DE (Nott?), Hagrid prefers to ignore the fact that this guy's father is an assassin?
b) Hagrid simply doesn't know him that well so he just lets it be?
c) Not being the son of a DE but having some sinister background Hagrid knows, he chooses not to comment in order to protect his privacy?
Gosh, I just can't wait for book 6 to solve this mystery.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 26, 2004 7:21 am (#464 of 491)
Hagrid wanted to comment, but he was interrupted by Malfoy. He said something like: "I know you could see them Harry. And you too, Neville. And..." . I think he wanted to adress the Slytherin boy by name, but in this moment Malfoy asked what they were supposed to see. By the way, Neville saw his grandfather die. He answered this when Umbridge asked him. That's why he can see Thestrals.
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Tomoé - Sep 26, 2004 10:31 am (#465 of 491)
Back in business
Interesting point Gina, so Jo would have written he was watching the eating horse with an expression of distaste if she wanted to say he was disgusted of the horse that was eating instead of being disgusted of the way the horse was eating.
Since it seems the MS didn't like the way the horse was eating, and not the horse itself, I think it's no fake distaste. It was likely the first time he saw a Thestral eat but not the first time he saw a Thestral. Now, what are the odds for him to be a nice or a bad guy? He was clearly disgusted to see a fanged horse eat a dead cow, if I can rely on my personal experiences, I would say he's definitely a non-violent guy who doesn't like trouble and never take part in a fight either physical or verbal. A low profile kind of guy.
Back to Hagrid, here's the exact line :
‘Yeah … yeah, I know you’d be able ter, Harry,’ he said seriously. ‘An’ you too, Neville, eh? An’ –’
‘Excuse me,’ said Malfoy in a sneering voice, ‘but what exactly are we supposed to be seeing?’ (UK OoP ch.21 p.394)
I think we can rephrase Hagrid's line in this way (correct me if I'm wrong) : "I know you saw someone die Harry, and you too Neville, and you too __________." It would be weird to continue Hagrid's line by "An’ I didn't know about you __________" or "An’ I'm surprise to see you do too __________", a conjunction like but or however will fit better if Hagrid was trying to bring a different statement.
Hagrid knew, which mean the event Hagrid is referring couldn't have happened since the end of GoF, as Hagrid was far away working on the Giant business and came back only the day or two days before the lesson. That should rule out the "Saw them for the first time in September then read Hogwarts: a History / ask someone who read it" and the "Saw them for the very first time in December and didn't realise only a few could see them" options.
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Ronan - Sep 26, 2004 3:18 pm (#466 of 491)
I'm really ashamed I posted that message with my theory of Hagrid avoiding to comment on the MS =( Actually some time later I checked the book and discovered it wasn't like that at all. The only interesting thing is that JKR is purposedly making Malfoy talk in order to stop Hagrid naming the guy. That makes me think that hopefully the fact that this guy can see Thestrals is going to be relevant in the next books.
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Tomoé - Sep 26, 2004 4:41 pm (#467 of 491)
Back in business
Don't be ashamed we all do something like that from time to time. ^_^
As for Jo making sure Hagrid didn't name the MS, did she want to conceal the name from us or from Harry?
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haymoni - Sep 27, 2004 5:37 am (#468 of 491)
Sometimes I wonder if there is a difference, Tomoe!
I think that if I saw a horse-like creature eating meat, I would be disgusted too.
Just because you've seen them pulling the carriages doesn't mean you wouldn't be grossed out later.
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Greaves - Sep 30, 2004 12:34 pm (#469 of 491)
I think that the MS is definately Blaise Zabini after all he is the only other slytherin that hasn't been mentioned at all since PS. Also there are supposedly 5 members of boys and girls in each year of the houses. So in slytherin there is Goyle, Crabbe, Malfoy and Nott leaving the other one to be Zabini. There cannot be another slytherin or else that would mean more members of boys and girls in each year of each house and a big misunderstanding from the books as so far we have only been introduced to 5 boys and girls from nearly all houses. I am sure ther isn't anymore boys in harry's year in gryffindor other than Harry, Ron, Neville, Seamus and Dean. Therefore the MS must be ZABINI!
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Warty Harris - Oct 1, 2004 2:00 pm (#470 of 491)
We cannot rule out Nott as being the Mystery Slytherin. It is either Nott or Zabini in my opinion. J.K. Rowling said we will see more of Zabini and the first name Blaise also belonged to a saint that loved animals.
Nott has been mentioned on J.K. Rowling's web site and his story is very interesting. He is independent from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle and could also very easily be the Mystery Slytherin.
It could be either one but I do think it will be one of the two.
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Catherine - Oct 28, 2004 8:26 am (#471 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I went back and reread this thread.
Whew.
I still think the Mystery Slytherin is Theodore Nott.
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Ann - Oct 28, 2004 11:24 am (#472 of 491)
The JKR website makes it sound like Theodore Nott used to have a more important part, but that, like Dean Thomas, his role has been reduced. I wonder if the reason is the growth in importance of Blaise Zabini, the other not-irremidiably-evil Slytherin. Rereading JKR's comment on him at the Edinburgh session, which is indeed suspiciously terse, I'm beginning to wonder whether he might even be the Half-Blood Prince! Could he have had a more important part in CoS?
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Aurora Gubbins - Nov 22, 2004 4:12 pm (#473 of 491)
I've just discovered that the name Blaise means 'he who stutters', suggesting a person of a nervous disposition. Don't know if that might affect how everyone thinks of the MS. Mind you, knowing that Theodore Nott is the son of a widower suggests the possibility of him having seen his Mother die, and consequently his ability to see the thestrals. Sorry if this has been said before - I don't often look at other threads...I seem to be fixated on the website thread! Aurora xx
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Amilia Smith - Dec 10, 2004 12:03 pm (#474 of 491)
In the FAQs posted on Jo's official site today, she identifies the MS as Theodore Nott.
Mills.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 10, 2004 12:10 pm (#475 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
50 points to Slytherin for Slytherin Prefect's theory!!!
Wooohooooo!!!!!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 12, 2004 2:58 am (#476 of 491)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Link please? Some of us don't have really long memories.
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Aurora Gubbins - Dec 12, 2004 5:07 pm (#477 of 491)
In Jo's notes, she has Nott also described as 'rabbity'; Does this mean he's a vegetarian? LOL Maybe his Patronus takes the form of Benjamin Bunny!
Aurora xx
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Gina R Snape - Dec 12, 2004 5:18 pm (#478 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Oh, perhaps that was why he was so disgusted at seeing the Thestrals eating raw meat off the bone!
TBE, it's on JKR's website.
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 12, 2004 8:54 pm (#479 of 491)
I Am Almighty!
TBE, if you were asking for a link to Slytherin Perfect's theory, SP started this thread and the whole Mystery Slytherin debate. I think that is what Gina was "Wooohoooooing" about.
I could be wrong, of course.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 13, 2004 8:19 am (#480 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yes, that is correct. Oh, do I call you nimrod or Vlad now?
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 13, 2004 4:57 pm (#481 of 491)
I Am Almighty!
I think I'm going to stick with Vlad, Gina.
I thought the Mystery Slytherin was going to be Blaise Zabini. Oh well, at least now we know.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 13, 2004 5:08 pm (#482 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
The next question, of course, is will he be a GOOD slytherin?
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Elanor - Dec 13, 2004 11:20 pm (#483 of 491)
As I wrote on another thread there is a little chance that Blaise Zabini could be a good Slytherin because of his first name.
Blaise is not a very common name in French but it does exist. In fact, the only Blaise I ever heard about are two very famous writers (both of them were men BTW). The most famous one is Blaise Pascal, the scientist, who lived in the 17th century and was one of the brightest minds of his time. The other one is Blaise Cendrars, a famous writer and poet who died in 1961 who was another great mind. Could this mean that Blaise Zabini could be THE Slytherin student with a brain which works well?
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Thora - Dec 14, 2004 7:18 am (#484 of 491)
I think that there are enough bad eggs in slytheryin (what with all the death nibblers) that from here on out Harry will discover that the rest are decent people, he'll be 16, that's old enough to start taking people for who they are and not what house they are in (no offence intended to those under 16, just personal experience here). Thora
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Tomoé - Dec 14, 2004 1:56 pm (#485 of 491)
Back in business
So, it was Theodore, not Blaise. I'm off to eat stoat shandwiches at Mark Evans's. ^_~
Should we turn this thread down and use Theodore's one or keep both of them alive?
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Kip Carter - Aug 2, 2005 11:18 am (#486 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
This thread was closed down during the sixteen day period surrounding the release of Book Six. It is now opened for posts.
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Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2005 1:15 pm (#487 of 491)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Was it? I was under the impression that it was Blaise.
He was watching the horse eat with a 'great distate on his face
Is the look that we have seen on Blaise's face. He is easily disgusted
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 12, 2005 6:40 am (#488 of 491)
No, it's Theodore. JKR answered this on her website several months ago.
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frogface - Nov 26, 2005 3:35 pm (#489 of 491)
So, now we know it was Nott. The next question arises...Who did he see die, and what were the circumstances? His mother is dead I believe, could it have been her?
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Tomoé - Jan 2, 2006 3:31 am (#490 of 491)
Back in business
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 2, 2006 2:44 am
This message was originally posted on Dec 2, 2005; however when I was attempting to move this thread to the section folder, I erred and in the process changed the date of this post. - Kip Jan 2, 2006
It is likely her, we know his father is "a very elderly widower" himself, so his mother should at least have been old (if not very old) when she died.
Whoever it might be, the death doesn't seem to be related to VWI as Theodore was old enough to understand the meaning of death when he saw it. So the safer bet would be Theodore saw his mother die, in circumstances close to what Neville witnessed with his grand-father.
Yeah, pure speculation, but we can only guess, we may never know.
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MichaelmasGal - Feb 8, 2006 3:28 am (#491 of 491)
Blaise is part of a not well known bit of Arthurian legend as well. Here are a few descriptions of him:
Blaise is Merlin's master. His origins are obscure, but in one of the Grail writings he is a guardian of the Grail. In a sense, Blaise is the inner self of Merlin. When the mysteries are complete, Merlin reports to Blaise, who then records the details of the Quest. Truly he is the Hierophant of the mysteries of the Grail and the triple crown belongs to him.
He becomes the scribe of Merlin to whom the wizard dictated the history of the Grail.
Merlin's mother stayd with him when she was pregnant.
Thought to be Merlin's teacher. Retired to Northumberland. Sometimes referred to as a hermit.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back in business
Thanks ex-FAHgeek to get what meant and clarifying it while I was away (I should stop to have a life beside Harry Potter ^_^). And thanks Gina and Marè for defending the relevance of analysis, I was doubting it had any interest at all.
Warty Harris -> [Blaise Zabini] has not been mentioned in the books at all except the chapter with the sorting ceremony. Now all of the sudden he is back? I wonder why.....
I believe with the four Slytherin boys clearly associated with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, the Slytherins will become unwilling objects of a gruesome sort of reflected fame. Therefore, Harry will have more hindsight of what's going on in Slytherin house and who really are those silent Slytherins. If the Mystery Slytherin is Blaise Zabini, we heard of 8 Slytherin students in Harry's year in OoP (MCG, Pansy, Millicent, Theo, Blaise and Daphne), ex equo with Gryffindor. It sounds like JKR was setting her actors for to next book.
Now what will be Zabini's role in it? what can he bring to the story?
First, if it's true there are only five boys in Harry's year, Blaise is the only boy who isn't the son of a Death Eater. He could easily be unfairly ostracized, especially if he find himself the only Slytherin in a class or with Slytherin girls that doesn't support Death Nibblers. I bet it will happen in CoMC and Harry will be the only one daring to team up with Blaise, he will do it because he know what it is to be left out, it happened too often to him back to the Muggle school. They'll soon get along well and Blaise will become Harry's link to the Slytherin as Ernie is Harry's link to the Hufflepuff.
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Ronan - Sep 4, 2004 9:27 am (#452 of 491)
That sounds great,Tomoè. I had hoped it'd be Theodore the one that would somehow befriend Harry (or something close) but after reading your theory Blaise sound much more likely, even obvious I'd say. Just one thing: what does CoMC mean?
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Warty Harris - Sep 4, 2004 9:58 am (#453 of 491)
CoMC stands for Care of Magical Creatures. The Mystery Slytherin could still be Nott. Remember he is a loner and may not follow Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. He may also have a change of heart. I think it is more likely Blaise Zabini but Nott may surprise us. Either way I think both boys will play a role in the upcoming books.
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Tomoé - Sep 6, 2004 6:25 pm (#454 of 491)
Back in business
I believe both Zabini and Nott will surprise us, but I don't think Theodore will be the one befriending Harry, because he does not feel the need to join gangs and he's a loner. In fact, I suspect Theo's absence of need to join gangs extend to Voldemort's gang. He's clever, I think he is the kind of people that want to make their own opinion on things. Draco consider him as his equal, I think that will play somehow.
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Warty Harris - Sep 8, 2004 6:14 pm (#455 of 491)
Yes, I think there are two Slytherins that are mysterious. I find it hard to believe that Nott would befriend Harry after his father is put in Azkaban but this may be where Nott shows an independent streak.
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Tomoé - Sep 8, 2004 10:47 pm (#456 of 491)
Back in business
I think Theodore is clever enough to know it was his father's fault, he shouldn't had joined Voldemort's gang in the first place. I don't think he'll try to take revenge on Harry, and I believe he'll find Draco's attempts to take revenge quite childish.
(Yes, I have faith in Theo ^_^ )
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El Cronista de Salem - Sep 22, 2004 12:20 pm (#457 of 491)
I think he is Theo, because his mother is dead (poor).
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Tomoé - Sep 22, 2004 12:57 pm (#458 of 491)
Back in business
The main point against Theo is that Harry didn't make a connection between the Mystery Slytherin scene and the Quibbler one. There no mention of the thestrals, the CoMC lessons or even the Slytherin House, just a link with the Death Nibblers and the Death Eater. Jo clearly don't want us to link the two scene together. Hint or red herring? Your guess is as good as mine.
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Ronan - Sep 25, 2004 5:18 am (#459 of 491)
Leaving aside wether the Mystery Slytherin is Nott or Zabini, what was your impression of that Thestral scene? Is he a nice guy or not? or Nott (pardon the pun, it's so easy doing plays of words with Theodore I can't resist!!
We just got a phrase to judge, but my general feeling wasn't really good. Harry was relieved to know the truth, Neville was very surprised, and the MS had an "expression of great distaste"... now that doesn't sound too friendly, does it? - - - - - - - - - -
rambkowalczyk - Sep 25, 2004 6:33 am (#460 of 491)
The great expression of distaste could be that he was grossed out watching the animal eat raw meat.
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Tomoé - Sep 25, 2004 7:54 pm (#461 of 491)
Back in business
There were only two other people who seem to be able to see them : a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face; and Neville, whose eyes were following the swishing progress of the long black tail. (OoP ch.21 pp.393)
I'm under the impression that Neville wasn't surprise, to follow the swishing progress of the tail it's something you do with a real horse. He did sound taken aback when Umbridge questioned him, but I think it was because of Umbridge herself. He's more neutral towards the Thestral than are either Harry or the MS, like the Thestrals were part of the "furnitures" that make Hogwarts Hogwarts. Of course, he was already alone with his Gran in PS so I would say he have seen those for seven times already at the very least.
Harry was pretty excited to learn what the Thestrals were. He have seen those ... twice I think ... since the beginning of the school, he was eager to know what they were.
And then, there's the MS. First, he looked at them with great distaste on his face, but no curiosity. He either :
Saw them many times over the years and is used to them
Saw them for the first time in September then read Hogwarts: a History / ask someone who read it
Saw them for the very first time in December and didn't realise only a few could see them.
Secondly, it could be real distaste or fake distaste If the distaste is real, either he doesn't like to see them eat or he doesn't like their apparence. He could be either nice or bad guy. If the distaste is faked, this shows a disapproval towards Hagrid, either because he want to fit in Malfoy's gang or because he think Hagrid's a lame teacher or a lame human being. In either case, that's not a reaction of a nice guy.
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Gina R Snape - Sep 25, 2004 9:09 pm (#462 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think the fact that JKR says he was watching the horse eating with an expression of distate is the important point here. If you grammatically deconstruct the sentence, it follows that the eating was what disgusted him.
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Ronan - Sep 26, 2004 4:44 am (#463 of 491)
Wow, great analysis, Tomoé. Actually you have pointed something I hadn't thought of: we don't how long has the MS been able to see Thestrals. Now we think of it, isn't it weird how Hagrid avoids commenting how that guy can see them too? As it's been said, we don't know exactly why Neville sees them, but Hagrid already imagined he could. Hagrid is Harry's friend, and everybody knows about Cedric. But with this slytherin, he chooses not to comment. Is it because:
a) Being the son of a known DE (Nott?), Hagrid prefers to ignore the fact that this guy's father is an assassin?
b) Hagrid simply doesn't know him that well so he just lets it be?
c) Not being the son of a DE but having some sinister background Hagrid knows, he chooses not to comment in order to protect his privacy?
Gosh, I just can't wait for book 6 to solve this mystery.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 26, 2004 7:21 am (#464 of 491)
Hagrid wanted to comment, but he was interrupted by Malfoy. He said something like: "I know you could see them Harry. And you too, Neville. And..." . I think he wanted to adress the Slytherin boy by name, but in this moment Malfoy asked what they were supposed to see. By the way, Neville saw his grandfather die. He answered this when Umbridge asked him. That's why he can see Thestrals.
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Tomoé - Sep 26, 2004 10:31 am (#465 of 491)
Back in business
Interesting point Gina, so Jo would have written he was watching the eating horse with an expression of distaste if she wanted to say he was disgusted of the horse that was eating instead of being disgusted of the way the horse was eating.
Since it seems the MS didn't like the way the horse was eating, and not the horse itself, I think it's no fake distaste. It was likely the first time he saw a Thestral eat but not the first time he saw a Thestral. Now, what are the odds for him to be a nice or a bad guy? He was clearly disgusted to see a fanged horse eat a dead cow, if I can rely on my personal experiences, I would say he's definitely a non-violent guy who doesn't like trouble and never take part in a fight either physical or verbal. A low profile kind of guy.
Back to Hagrid, here's the exact line :
‘Yeah … yeah, I know you’d be able ter, Harry,’ he said seriously. ‘An’ you too, Neville, eh? An’ –’
‘Excuse me,’ said Malfoy in a sneering voice, ‘but what exactly are we supposed to be seeing?’ (UK OoP ch.21 p.394)
I think we can rephrase Hagrid's line in this way (correct me if I'm wrong) : "I know you saw someone die Harry, and you too Neville, and you too __________." It would be weird to continue Hagrid's line by "An’ I didn't know about you __________" or "An’ I'm surprise to see you do too __________", a conjunction like but or however will fit better if Hagrid was trying to bring a different statement.
Hagrid knew, which mean the event Hagrid is referring couldn't have happened since the end of GoF, as Hagrid was far away working on the Giant business and came back only the day or two days before the lesson. That should rule out the "Saw them for the first time in September then read Hogwarts: a History / ask someone who read it" and the "Saw them for the very first time in December and didn't realise only a few could see them" options.
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Ronan - Sep 26, 2004 3:18 pm (#466 of 491)
I'm really ashamed I posted that message with my theory of Hagrid avoiding to comment on the MS =( Actually some time later I checked the book and discovered it wasn't like that at all. The only interesting thing is that JKR is purposedly making Malfoy talk in order to stop Hagrid naming the guy. That makes me think that hopefully the fact that this guy can see Thestrals is going to be relevant in the next books.
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Tomoé - Sep 26, 2004 4:41 pm (#467 of 491)
Back in business
Don't be ashamed we all do something like that from time to time. ^_^
As for Jo making sure Hagrid didn't name the MS, did she want to conceal the name from us or from Harry?
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haymoni - Sep 27, 2004 5:37 am (#468 of 491)
Sometimes I wonder if there is a difference, Tomoe!
I think that if I saw a horse-like creature eating meat, I would be disgusted too.
Just because you've seen them pulling the carriages doesn't mean you wouldn't be grossed out later.
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Greaves - Sep 30, 2004 12:34 pm (#469 of 491)
I think that the MS is definately Blaise Zabini after all he is the only other slytherin that hasn't been mentioned at all since PS. Also there are supposedly 5 members of boys and girls in each year of the houses. So in slytherin there is Goyle, Crabbe, Malfoy and Nott leaving the other one to be Zabini. There cannot be another slytherin or else that would mean more members of boys and girls in each year of each house and a big misunderstanding from the books as so far we have only been introduced to 5 boys and girls from nearly all houses. I am sure ther isn't anymore boys in harry's year in gryffindor other than Harry, Ron, Neville, Seamus and Dean. Therefore the MS must be ZABINI!
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Warty Harris - Oct 1, 2004 2:00 pm (#470 of 491)
We cannot rule out Nott as being the Mystery Slytherin. It is either Nott or Zabini in my opinion. J.K. Rowling said we will see more of Zabini and the first name Blaise also belonged to a saint that loved animals.
Nott has been mentioned on J.K. Rowling's web site and his story is very interesting. He is independent from Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle and could also very easily be the Mystery Slytherin.
It could be either one but I do think it will be one of the two.
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Catherine - Oct 28, 2004 8:26 am (#471 of 491)
Canon Seeker
I went back and reread this thread.
Whew.
I still think the Mystery Slytherin is Theodore Nott.
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Ann - Oct 28, 2004 11:24 am (#472 of 491)
The JKR website makes it sound like Theodore Nott used to have a more important part, but that, like Dean Thomas, his role has been reduced. I wonder if the reason is the growth in importance of Blaise Zabini, the other not-irremidiably-evil Slytherin. Rereading JKR's comment on him at the Edinburgh session, which is indeed suspiciously terse, I'm beginning to wonder whether he might even be the Half-Blood Prince! Could he have had a more important part in CoS?
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Aurora Gubbins - Nov 22, 2004 4:12 pm (#473 of 491)
I've just discovered that the name Blaise means 'he who stutters', suggesting a person of a nervous disposition. Don't know if that might affect how everyone thinks of the MS. Mind you, knowing that Theodore Nott is the son of a widower suggests the possibility of him having seen his Mother die, and consequently his ability to see the thestrals. Sorry if this has been said before - I don't often look at other threads...I seem to be fixated on the website thread! Aurora xx
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Amilia Smith - Dec 10, 2004 12:03 pm (#474 of 491)
In the FAQs posted on Jo's official site today, she identifies the MS as Theodore Nott.
Mills.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 10, 2004 12:10 pm (#475 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
50 points to Slytherin for Slytherin Prefect's theory!!!
Wooohooooo!!!!!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 12, 2004 2:58 am (#476 of 491)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Link please? Some of us don't have really long memories.
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Aurora Gubbins - Dec 12, 2004 5:07 pm (#477 of 491)
In Jo's notes, she has Nott also described as 'rabbity'; Does this mean he's a vegetarian? LOL Maybe his Patronus takes the form of Benjamin Bunny!
Aurora xx
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Gina R Snape - Dec 12, 2004 5:18 pm (#478 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Oh, perhaps that was why he was so disgusted at seeing the Thestrals eating raw meat off the bone!
TBE, it's on JKR's website.
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 12, 2004 8:54 pm (#479 of 491)
I Am Almighty!
TBE, if you were asking for a link to Slytherin Perfect's theory, SP started this thread and the whole Mystery Slytherin debate. I think that is what Gina was "Wooohoooooing" about.
I could be wrong, of course.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 13, 2004 8:19 am (#480 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yes, that is correct. Oh, do I call you nimrod or Vlad now?
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 13, 2004 4:57 pm (#481 of 491)
I Am Almighty!
I think I'm going to stick with Vlad, Gina.
I thought the Mystery Slytherin was going to be Blaise Zabini. Oh well, at least now we know.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 13, 2004 5:08 pm (#482 of 491)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
The next question, of course, is will he be a GOOD slytherin?
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Elanor - Dec 13, 2004 11:20 pm (#483 of 491)
As I wrote on another thread there is a little chance that Blaise Zabini could be a good Slytherin because of his first name.
Blaise is not a very common name in French but it does exist. In fact, the only Blaise I ever heard about are two very famous writers (both of them were men BTW). The most famous one is Blaise Pascal, the scientist, who lived in the 17th century and was one of the brightest minds of his time. The other one is Blaise Cendrars, a famous writer and poet who died in 1961 who was another great mind. Could this mean that Blaise Zabini could be THE Slytherin student with a brain which works well?
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Thora - Dec 14, 2004 7:18 am (#484 of 491)
I think that there are enough bad eggs in slytheryin (what with all the death nibblers) that from here on out Harry will discover that the rest are decent people, he'll be 16, that's old enough to start taking people for who they are and not what house they are in (no offence intended to those under 16, just personal experience here). Thora
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Tomoé - Dec 14, 2004 1:56 pm (#485 of 491)
Back in business
So, it was Theodore, not Blaise. I'm off to eat stoat shandwiches at Mark Evans's. ^_~
Should we turn this thread down and use Theodore's one or keep both of them alive?
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Kip Carter - Aug 2, 2005 11:18 am (#486 of 491)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
This thread was closed down during the sixteen day period surrounding the release of Book Six. It is now opened for posts.
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Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2005 1:15 pm (#487 of 491)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Was it? I was under the impression that it was Blaise.
He was watching the horse eat with a 'great distate on his face
Is the look that we have seen on Blaise's face. He is easily disgusted
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 12, 2005 6:40 am (#488 of 491)
No, it's Theodore. JKR answered this on her website several months ago.
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frogface - Nov 26, 2005 3:35 pm (#489 of 491)
So, now we know it was Nott. The next question arises...Who did he see die, and what were the circumstances? His mother is dead I believe, could it have been her?
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Tomoé - Jan 2, 2006 3:31 am (#490 of 491)
Back in business
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 2, 2006 2:44 am
This message was originally posted on Dec 2, 2005; however when I was attempting to move this thread to the section folder, I erred and in the process changed the date of this post. - Kip Jan 2, 2006
It is likely her, we know his father is "a very elderly widower" himself, so his mother should at least have been old (if not very old) when she died.
Whoever it might be, the death doesn't seem to be related to VWI as Theodore was old enough to understand the meaning of death when he saw it. So the safer bet would be Theodore saw his mother die, in circumstances close to what Neville witnessed with his grand-father.
Yeah, pure speculation, but we can only guess, we may never know.
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MichaelmasGal - Feb 8, 2006 3:28 am (#491 of 491)
Blaise is part of a not well known bit of Arthurian legend as well. Here are a few descriptions of him:
Blaise is Merlin's master. His origins are obscure, but in one of the Grail writings he is a guardian of the Grail. In a sense, Blaise is the inner self of Merlin. When the mysteries are complete, Merlin reports to Blaise, who then records the details of the Quest. Truly he is the Hierophant of the mysteries of the Grail and the triple crown belongs to him.
He becomes the scribe of Merlin to whom the wizard dictated the history of the Grail.
Merlin's mother stayd with him when she was pregnant.
Thought to be Merlin's teacher. Retired to Northumberland. Sometimes referred to as a hermit.
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