What did we learn about Lily in book 5?

What did we learn about Lily in book 5?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

vball man - Jul 5, 2006 4:43 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 31, 2006 1:49 am
J.K. Rowling interview transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999

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Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry’s father and I was wondering ‘Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?’
JKR: Yeah, you will. It’s ---- yet again ---- you won’t find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you’re absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry’s father. Now the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing, you’re going to find out in 2 parts. You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can’t tell you what those things are so I’m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do.

So what was that important thing that we learned about Lily in book 5 that is important in what Harry ends up having to do?

She defended Snape somewhat.

She didn't like James until 7th year.

I don't see what those could mean. What else do we learn in book 5?

Magic Words - Jul 5, 2006 5:17 pm (#1 of 56)
Well, she says there's one thing we'll learn in two parts. Maybe it's something that's hinted at in OotP but not explained or explored until book 7. I think if Lily had some kind of relationship with Snape (friendship or unrequited love) that would fit the criteria.

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Miss Amanda - Jul 6, 2006 5:25 am (#2 of 56)
Magic Words,

I too think there is some type of connection between Lily and Snape. I can imagine Snape showing up at Petunia's door and her saying, "You? But you're that horrible boy who talked about Azkaban!" Just kidding.

I think Lily helped Snape in potions. Slughorn was always going on about how Lily was a natural at potions.

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vball man - Jul 6, 2006 10:36 am (#3 of 56)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Moderators,

I posted this on the James and Lily Potter thread - but then I couldn't find it on the main page. So, not knowing how the pages worked, I posted it as a new thread.

Probably this thread should be deleted.

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Madam Pince - Jul 6, 2006 8:18 pm (#4 of 56)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Well, before it gets deleted, I just wanted to say "I'm with you!", vball man. I was so excited to read HBP because I wanted to know what's up with Lily, and that was just about the first question I asked myself when I finished the book -- "So what was the big bombshell about Lily we were supposed to get?!?!?" Grrrrr....

The only thing I can guess is that maybe there was a hint that perhaps there was a chance Lily and Snape were friends, and maybe that will affect Harry's future actions somehow. But, boy, that's a lot of disclaimers in there...

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 6, 2006 9:15 pm (#5 of 56)
I think Lily helped Snape in potions. Slughorn was always going on about how Lily was a natural at potions. - Miss Amanda

That's possible, but I always imagined it the other way around, that Snape helped Lily; I don't know why though... Did Snape write in all of the corrections in his Potions book, or did his mother? Because I would imagine that Snape either learned all he knew about Potions from either Lily or his mom; I always got the impression that he was too interested in the Dark Arts to pay an exuberant amount of attention to other classes... Unless of course, he was so interested in Lily that he went out of his way to learn about Potions so that he could help her; she might have been the only person who was the least bit decent towards him and he developed a crush. I myself have studied a lot harder than I had to in Math just so I could help the girl I sat next to when she needed it. As for Slughorn saying that Lily was a natural, didn't he also seem to think that Harry was a natural? And I believe he gave the credit for Harry's ability to Snape, his previous teacher who had taught him for five years, so I think he recognized him as a good Potions scholar also. But I really don't know; I think it could go either way. (Out of curiosity, how come Harry didn't recognize Snape's handwriting? Or even Ron? Perhaps they didn't because it was his mother's handwriting, and not Snape's, although I'm sure somebody has mentioned this before. Maybe Snape only wrote in his own spells.)

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zelmia - Jul 7, 2006 1:48 pm (#6 of 56)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
If Snape wrote in the book as a teenager, his handwriting may not be the same after twenty years. Mine certainly isn't the same as when I was a teenager.
I don't think Lily wrote in the book for the simple reason that Rowling went to a great deal of trouble to have Hermione tell us that the book had once belonged to Eileen Prince aka Snape's mum. This really has no bearing on the overall plot so it seems clear that we are not meant to consider Lily as the mysterious scribe.

I think the main thing we may have learned about Lily in Book 5 is that she was unimpressed with James - unlike many of the other girls in her era. James was something of a celebrity - at least he was at Hogwarts - because of his talent on the Quidditch pitch.
Remember how Snape tells Harry that "a small amount of success on the Quidditch pitch" made James "strut" around campus (PA). Snape seems to have been rather accurate there, whether Harry likes it or not.
Lily, however, did not find this quality in James at all attractive. In fact, she calls him on it in front of the entire courtyard.
There is a certain parallel in James and Harry when we look at HBP, particularly the 'Quidditch Tryouts' section. All the girls who giggle every time Harry walks by; all those who came to try out for the House Quidditch team simply because Harry was "famous". But whereas Harry reviles this sort of attention, James ate it up.
So I think the commonality is that each boy needs to find someone who doesn't care about the Celebrity, but who cares about the Person. James eventually did this and so did Harry. The other thing is that James needed to learn to be a Person rather than just resting on the laurels he earned from playing Quidditch, etc. Lily was clearly able to teach him that at some point, or else the two would never have got (or is it "gotten"?) together.
The same could be said for Harry, although for different reasons. Harry has spent a good deal of his life just trying not to stand out in any way - first to avoid the wrath of the Dursleys and later to avoid unwanted publicity. Harry, too, has had to learn to become a Person: by allowing himself to have feelings and letting them come through, by learning to take the good with the bad; by allowing himself to love openly.

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Choices - Jul 7, 2006 5:38 pm (#7 of 56)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hermione is very astute and she does tell Harry that the handwriting in the potions book looks like a girls - I think it is pretty certain that a least some of the notes were made by Eileen Prince (not Lily).

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Chemyst - Jul 7, 2006 9:12 pm (#8 of 56)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
As fun as it is to daydream about Lily & Snape, I think "the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing," JKR was talking about in that interview was how her protection for Harry worked. That it was ancient magic, and that because it was love-based, LV miscalculated.

I used to worry about Harry having to "kill" Voldemort, that he'd be forced to become a killer himself; but for awhile now I've been leaning more toward Voldemort being done in by his own miscalculation(s).

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Madam Pince - Jul 7, 2006 9:23 pm (#9 of 56)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
But didn't we already know that about Lily's protection of Harry, long before then? I thought we knew that from Book 1 when Dumbledore gave his little speech to Harry at the end of the book.

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geauxtigers - Jul 7, 2006 9:28 pm (#10 of 56)
Yum!
Hermione is very astute and she does tell Harry that the handwriting in the potions book looks like a girls - I think it is pretty certain that a least some of the notes were made by Eileen Prince (not Lily).

Thats a good thought Choices, but the only thing I can see to contradict that is that Harry usually refers to it as 'that same cramped writing'. Not strong evidence, but I'm in the middle of HBP I'll keep a look out.

Oops I just realized this was the Lily thread in OoP! Okay so to comment on that.... MP, we do hear about her protection in book one, so its not new news to Harry...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 8, 2006 5:59 am (#11 of 56)
All this about Lily and potions is in book six, not book five (Order of the Phoenix). My guess is that it is the protection of Harry - the pwoer of love that saw through James's ego and sacrificed itself for her son. But I do think the charms and potions are important. We got a hint about James and transfiguration in book 1 with Ollivander's comment about the wands.

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Madam Pince - Jul 8, 2006 9:27 am (#12 of 56)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Phelim, I just realized last night that this thread was about Book 5 rather than Book 6 -- I was thinking it was Book 6 that we were promised the info about Lily. My mistake!

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TheSaint - Jul 8, 2006 11:35 am (#13 of 56)
Maybe..the about face in her feelings toward James and Harry's thought that maybe she was bewitched?

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 10, 2006 11:05 am (#14 of 56)
Hi all, Well, there have been times that JKR wanted to put things in a book, and she ended up not being able to fit it in for one reason or another. It did not go with the plot of that book or she decided to save it for the next book.??????????? Maybe she put most of it in book 6. I feel that there was a lot more about Lily in book 6, than book 5. With all that Slughorn had to say about her etc. etc.. So maybe we needed the info. from 5 & 6. And more to come in book 7. I just do not see Lily ever loveing Snape. But at some point she could of liked him as a classmate, in potions. I have always thought that at the end, there will be a way for Harry to kill off LV with out AKing him, AK is Dark Arts after all. I do not feel that Harry will want to use Dark Arts, to kill LV. If Lily left Harry info. somehow about a Charm or Potion that he can use to kill LV that would keep him from useing Dark Arts. Maybe this will be something that he could find at G.H. in book 7, about his Mom, and the work she was doing.

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wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 2:03 pm (#15 of 56)
Apparently, from JKR's quote, the really important thing that we learn about Lily in book 5, is connected to the important thing we learn about her in Book 7. In fact, it's even more than connected -- it's one thing in two parts. While I know DD talks to Harry about Lily's sacrifice in Book 5, he really doesn't tell Harry much about the sacrifice that Harry and we the readers didn't already know. It seems like if JKR had meant the important thing to be the sacrifice, she'd have said something along the lines of us learning more about a very important thing about Lily -- because we already knew a good deal about it already. But JKR talks about this "thing" as though it's something we'll not have heard about before. If that's the case, then that pretty much only leaves us with what we learn about Lily in the "Snape's Worst Memory" pensieve scene.

As has already been stated, that mostly breaks down in "Lily didn't like James until 7th year," "Lily thought James was an arrogant jerk prior to 7th year," and "Lily defended Snape one at least one occasion."

Why would these things be important? There's no real importance to when Lily's relationship with James started, or her earlier opinions of him, unless it has some relation to the plot -- which would almost certainly lead us to Snape.

It's interesting that JKR didn't say we'd learn more about this "thing" in book 6, only book 7. We do learn some more in HBP about Lily's love, blood protection, and choice, but we don't learn any more about her relationships with James or anyone else while at Hogwarts.

However, we do learn about Lily in HBP, it's just not anything directly related to either relationships during her Hogwarts years. We learn about her strength in potions.

I've noticed that some speculate that she tutored Snape in potions. Can't see why. In talking to Snape at the Christmas party and expounding on Harry's abilities, Slughorn say, "why even you Severus..." as though even Severus was not better than Harry has been in potions class (hah, of course he wasn't better, how could he be better than himself?).

Anyway, there's no real evidence that Snape and Lily taught each other anything in potions, except that Slughorn sees Harry's work and thinks of Lily. But that's only natural, since he's her son.

To sum, I think JKR was probably referring to the beginnings of what we'll learn about Lily's involvement with both James and Snape. Her involvement with Snape may turn out to be only friendship, but if there was a relationship of some kind, it will certainly be crucial to the plot.

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Soul Search - Jul 12, 2006 2:32 pm (#16 of 56)
With apologies to Gina, I can't see any attractive, popular, teenaged Gryfindor girl developing a romantic affection for Severus Snape. All that we see of teenaged Snape would be a serious turnoff.

I could see Snape developing an interest in Lily, in spite of his "Mudblood" putdown.

Actually, I have never quite understood Snape's "Mudblood" putdown of Lily. He is, after all, a half-blood and considered in the same camp by purebloods. Sort of a "pot and kettle" thing.

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shepherdess - Jul 12, 2006 9:13 pm (#17 of 56)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
In the "Snape's Worst Nightmare" scene in OP, we learn that Lily protected Snape from being tortured by James. Now I may be wrong, but isn't that the only time we hear of her being nice to him in any way? Personally, I'm not sure that's reason enough to think there was anything romantic between them-one sided or mutual.

Perhaps Lily didn't care for Snape any more than anyone else did. In fact that's the impression I get from the way the two of them interacted after she rescued him.

But we do know that Lily disliked James and his arrogant ways. Apparently, she didn't approve him torturing people, and being cruel.

So I tend to think that she stepped in, not because she cared about Snape himself, but because she abhorred James' behavior, and wanted to stop him.

Perhaps, what we learn about Lily is that she has a lot of compassion for others, especially those in unfortunate circumstances, being abused or humiliated. Compassion is a form of love. Maybe that's what Lily had. Maybe that's what Harry has. Maybe that's where he got it from. Maybe that's the power that LV doesn't know about. Maybe we'll learn more about that in the last book.

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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 4:10 am (#18 of 56)
Soul Search - I think Snape may have cared for Lily, but Lily saw him as a really good friend. Hence the Mudblood comment might have hurt even more. I think their friendship started very early. I agree with you. Only Gina for Snape!

I don't think those with a pureblood attitude have the same opinion of half-bloods as they do Muggle-borns. Granted, they would want their children to marry other pure-bloods, but it seems to be more tolerable if the magic is passed down through at least 1 wizard than if it just suddenly springs forth from a child of 2 Muggles.

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wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 5:28 am (#19 of 56)
With apologies to Gina, I can't see any attractive, popular, teenaged Gryfindor girl developing a romantic affection for Severus Snape. All that we see of teenaged Snape would be a serious turnoff.

First, I don't think we're going to find that Lily had a romantic affection for Snape. However, I don't think the above statement is really justified.

All we know objectively about the teenage is what we see in the pensieve scene -- a sort of stereotypical geeky guy, with pretty oily hair. I don't think we can judge his overall personality (at that point in his life) by how we responded to the Marauders in that scene since that was an extremely stressful situation.

Is there something about being attractive and popular that would make a girl less likely to be interested in the geeky guy sort of sarcastic guy with oily hair? Because she could have her pick of guys, she would only be interested in those like herself? Attractive and popular?

I have teenage daughters who attend a small school. Even in a small school population I know of two instances where very attractive, popular girls had close relationships with unattractive, very geeky, guys. In one case, the guy also is also ascerbic, sarcastic, sort of hermit-like with very few friends. In both cases, the girls could have easily dated more attractive and popular guys. In the case of the really sarcastic guy, the girl's initial attraction was the fun of crossing verbal swords with him.

Even if we think of adult Snape as sarcastic and insulting to the extreme, perhaps bitter, perhaps resentful, that doesn't mean that teenage Snape was anywhere nearly so much that way.

And remember, even adult Snape, at Spinners End, could act very differently toward Narcissa than we've seen him act toward the students.

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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 6:41 am (#20 of 56)
I'm guessin' it was the greying underpants that turned the girls off.

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wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 8:48 am (#21 of 56)
LOL! Oh, haymoni, that is funny!

By the way, sorry about all those typos in the above post. I usually proof-read better than that.

And this sentence of mine, "I don't think we can judge his overall personality (at that point in his life) by how we responded to the Marauders in that scene since that was an extremely stressful situation," should have read "by how he responded to the Marauders..."

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 13, 2006 10:06 am (#22 of 56)
We find out that Lily does have a compassionate nature. Didn't Lupin suggest the same,or was that movie contamination? I could see Snape having a soft spot for Lily if indeed she befriended him when others snubbed him. It would be interesting to see how Snape would respond to Harry without his glasses. Would he see Lily instead of James?

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 13, 2006 10:06 pm (#23 of 56)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Harry also noted the compassion. Is not compassion a component of love?

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 15, 2006 4:41 am (#24 of 56)
Hi all, I will have to go along with Shepherdess and some others of you that feel Lily was all about compassion. And that compassion is part of love for others. I feel that Lupin loved Lily for her compassion. But on a different note, I could see Snape loving Narcissa a lot more than Lily.

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Honour - Jul 15, 2006 5:36 am (#25 of 56)
My daughter and I are on a re-re-re-re-read and are trying to find where it states that Lily was in Gryfindor could someone please come to our rescue and shine a lamp our way? Thank you:)

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Good Evans - Jul 15, 2006 5:39 am (#26 of 56)
Practically perfect in every way
I beleive that the new potions master (name is escaping me!! - Slughorn!) says so when he tells Harry about her being one of his favourites. Whether this was at their first meeting or not I can't remember exactly. But, you will find a canon reference to this in HBP.

hope that helps

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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 10:42 am (#27 of 56)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Honour - Check out the Lexicon in the witches and wizards section - it gives a lot of information on Lily - she definitely was in Gryffindor and was head girl her last year at Hogwarts.

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Honour - Jul 15, 2006 4:20 pm (#28 of 56)
Thanks Good Evans, Choices, we couldn't see for looking!

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Ponine - Jul 25, 2006 4:49 pm (#29 of 56)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
On a limb here, and maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but as Snape calls Lily a mudblood, and no one calls him on it, I assume that nobody was aware of his half-blood status? Could Lily have something to do with his acceptance/apparent pride in his mixed background? In less than two years he went from mudblood-caller to calling himself the half-blood prince... I find that transition to be peculiar unless influenced by someone strong, kind, and compassionate.

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Laura W - Jul 26, 2006 12:15 am (#30 of 56)
Good observation, Ponine. I'm not so sure about the Lily thing, but I never noticed that contradiction - my word - before.

In fifth year, he used the most racist pejorative term he could in expressing his anger at Lily, just as Draco did on Hermoine in PS. Yet, in sixth year he called himself "half-blood" on the cover of the sixth-year Potions textbook. You are right. So, all of a sudden he's not a racist? Not a poseur who is pretending to be pure-blood for his fellow Slytherin friends? Admittedly, he probably never thought anyone would get their hands on and see his self-marked-up textbook, but he still referred to himself this way.

I hate inconsistancies and this is starting to make me feel uneasy.

Are we to believe that Snape started to like Lily, despite her Muggle-born status, sometime between fifth and sixth year? Man, she must have done something really big despite her declaration in OoP, that she "won't bother in future" (to stand up for Snape when one of the Maruaders is mean to him)! Or maybe after that incident she cooled down, changed her mind and *did* stand up for him after all.

And then fell for James Potter anyway in their seventh year. (poor Severus)

I really have no clue about any of this.

Laura

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journeymom - Jul 26, 2006 1:33 am (#31 of 56)
Book 8: Severus Snape and the Marauders of Hogwarts.

I'd pay good money for it!

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wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2006 3:12 am (#32 of 56)
I would expect that what someone might write privately in a book at their leisure is a lot more indicative of true opinion than using a bad slur during an extremely stressful, embarrassing, public and possibly dangerous moment. The two don't compare.

The "half blood prince" title is a title Snape accepted, and probably gave to himself. It is almost certainly more likely to reflect his attitude toward his muggle roots than his comment to Lily reflected his attitude toward another students muggle roots.

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Laura W - Jul 26, 2006 4:52 am (#33 of 56)
Actually, I've just figured out the answer to my own question. (grin) Don't know how I missed it before.

Regarding Snape's attitude towards what Lily Evans is and his attitude towards what he is, we are talking about oranges and apples. Lily is Muggle-born. Both her parents were Muggles. Thus, to a racist wizard, she is a Mudblood; a lowlife who should not be allowed in Hogwarts (according to S. Slytherin) at all. Severus, on the other hand, is a half-blood; definitely a step up. Not pure-blood, to be sure, but not a "Mudblood."

Draco does not taunt Seamus or Dean or other half-bloods; only Hermoine. And Snape's bigotry is reserved for the "worst" kind of witch or wizard (ie - the Muggle-borns like Lily). There are very few truly pure-blood wizard families, after all.

So, it is perfectly reasonable that Snape would not have been particularly ashamed of his half-blood status in Sixth Year (and in every other year of school), while still seeing "Mudbloods" like Lily as sub-human. His Fifth Year comment to and about her would not necessarily have changed a year later - I don't think it would have - in order for him to proudly call himself the Half-Blood Prince in his potions textbook.

They are not, as I first thought, contradictory.

Laura

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Soul Search - Jul 26, 2006 8:18 am (#34 of 56)
Laura W, your summary is right, but I think there is more going on.

Draco tries to put down Hermione at every opportunity because she does better than he in school work, and Draco's father berates him for it. Draco wants very much to please his father.

We see the first of this in CoS, in Borgin & Burkes. Lucius berates Draco for not doing better in classwork and Draco responds with a comment about Hermione being a teachers' pet. Lucius then further berates Draco because a mudblood is doing better than he is.

We see Draco lashing out at Hermione in the Quiddich pitch scene by calling her a mudblood.

Draco continues this theme in the Slytherin common room with the polyjuiced Harry and Ron by wishing Slytherin's monster would get Hermione.

While Draco is quite willing to put anyone down, even Crabbe and Goyle at times, he particularly targets Hermione because she does so well at studies. (Hermione also has good comebacks for him, and, of course, she is a friend of Harry's, so that helps too.)

Now, is it possible that Snape was responding in a similar way when he called Lily a mudblood in the pensive scene in OotP?

In HBP, Slughorn repeatedly mentions how good Lily was at potions. Was Lily better than Snape? Slughorn even has the effrontery to favor Harry with potions skills, in front of Snape! Were Lily and Snape classroom rivals?

Is that why Snape called Lily a mudblood, just like Draco called Hermione a mudblood: a frustrated rival?

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2006 10:53 am (#35 of 56)
I wonder if "blood status" is why Snape is so hateful to Hermione, also a Muggle-born. She gets almost as much of his hostility as Harry. I also still wonder if the "Half-Blood Prince" couldn't also have referred to Snape's mom, Eileen Prince. Do we know if she was a pure-blood, or could she have been a half-blood, as well?

Solitaire

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haymoni - Jul 26, 2006 1:02 pm (#36 of 56)
So he'd be The Quarter Blood Prince.

I wonder if Hermione is just like Lily.

Lily & Hermione were both Muggle-borns.

They both did well in school - talented, gifted, whatever you want to call it.

If Snape can't stand the sight of Harry because he reminds him of James, maybe Snape feels the same way about Hermione.

I tend to think, however, that Hermione & Snape have more in common. Perhaps Snape was the one always answering in class. He sees himself in Hermione and maybe he doesn't like remembering.

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2006 3:15 pm (#37 of 56)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Plus, Hermione can answer all the questions and yet still manages to have friends. Snape apparently did not. Perhaps Lily and Hermione did have much in common.

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TheSaint - Jul 26, 2006 8:57 pm (#38 of 56)
"Half-Blood Prince" couldn't also have referred to Snape's mom, Eileen Prince - Solitaire

I did wonder about the notation that the book is 50 years old. Why would Eileen keep her 5th year potions book all those years? Has anyone saved a school book for thier unconceived children? I suppose someone has checked for any previous descriptions of Snape's handwriting. I just thought to look. Oh well.

I still find the Snape/Lily theory a bit strange.

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journeymom - Jul 26, 2006 9:49 pm (#39 of 56)
Didn't Hermione say the handwritting looked "feminine"?

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Ponine - Jul 26, 2006 11:06 pm (#40 of 56)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Saint, the HBP's writing was described (I think, I don't have the books here, sorry) as miniscule and cramped, or something to that extent. The description was identical to the one of young Snape's handwriting in Snape's Worst Memory (OotP) Journeymom, yes, I think she did.

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journeymom - Jul 27, 2006 12:03 am (#41 of 56)
And we could take that as foreshadowing, or we could take it as Hermione, irritated with Harry and Ron, is looking for silly ways to discredit the HBP.

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Magic Words - Jul 27, 2006 11:23 am (#42 of 56)
I've heard it suggested that Eileen Prince (or Lily) wrote in the book, but I can't reconcile that with Snape claiming he invented the spells. Surely we would be told if there were two separate handwritings. The spells must be in his handwriting, ergo, all the notes are in his handwriting.

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Choices - Jul 27, 2006 11:40 am (#43 of 56)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But, I don't think we can discount the fact that Hermione says the writing (at least the writing she saw in the potion book) looks like a girl's handwriting. Hermione is usually right on! I tend to think that Eileen Prince wrote some of margin notes in the book.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2006 2:01 pm (#44 of 56)
I still want to believe that they are Lily's notes and she may have even given him the name Half Blood Prince jokingly.Her eyes widened when he called her mudblood.I think there is more to this.

I just thought of something.If Snape did crush on Lily,maybe that was the reason he got so irate at Sirius' escape in PoA-He blames him for Lily's death.

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Pamzter - Jul 28, 2006 10:27 pm (#45 of 56)
My speculation: Lily was full of compassion. She befriended and took a lonely, friendless boy (who was perhaps her lab partner) home for the holidays ("that awful boy"). He fell in love with her. She did not return the feelings. He was devastated and, in the midst of one of the worst days of his life, he wound up calling her an awful name. There was nothing he could do to take it back . . .

sigh * wipes tear from eye * wouldn't it make a great movie? *

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Magic Words - Jul 29, 2006 7:22 am (#46 of 56)
Dunno about a movie. I know it would make a terrific prequel! (hint, hint)

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2006 10:51 am (#47 of 56)
I'm stickin' with my theory that Lily & Snape met on the train the first year at Hogwarts. I thought about it after I re-read PS/SS and noticed how quickly Hermione seemed to take Neville under her wing.

I don't think Snape was as helpless as Neville, but he was described as a greasy little weirdo. Maybe some kids were making fun of him and Lily stood up for him.

I could see Snape wandering around town like young Tom Riddle did. If he's half Muggle, he would be comfortable visiting Lily.

I've thought as he got more involved in his house, he may have picked up a bit of the Slytherin rhetoric and the "Mudblood" comment just slipped out, making it "Snape's Worst Memory".

I've posted this a few times. I hope I'm not boring anybody!!

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Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2006 4:27 pm (#48 of 56)
Librarian
Well, Neville was nebishy but I don't think that he was described as greasy. Round faced and pudgy is all of the description that I can remember. Yes, somewhere there is reference to his round fingers.

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Magic Words - Jul 29, 2006 4:30 pm (#49 of 56)
It's true that if you're around people who use a certain type of language long enough, words are more likely to slip out even when you don't intend to use them.

I could even see Slytherins, amongst themselves, using "Mudblood" as a generic insult that needn't necessarily have anything to do with heritage. "I can't believe you would do that, Black! You're such a Mudblood sometimes!"

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wynnleaf - Jul 29, 2006 5:11 pm (#50 of 56)
haymoni,

I'm guessing your theory is correct (not that we know for sure). Of course, Neville's description isn't the same as young Snape's probably would have been. But they'd both be the type of kid that the rest of their age group would probably take one look and think, "not like the rest of us," which is pretty much the social kiss of death as a pre-teen.

I also think that it's interesting that James made sure that any hexing of Snape following their 5th year (or at least once he started dating Lily), was done out of Lily's view. I doubt it that was just because Lily disagreed with the general idea of hexing people, but likely also because James knew that fighting with Snape was going to displease Lily.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 30, 2006 8:17 pm (#51 of 56)
I've thought as he got more involved in his house, he may have picked up a bit of the Slytherin rhetoric and the "Mudblood" comment just slipped out, making it "Snape's Worst Memory". Haymonie

I like that! It wasn't his being hung upside down with his undies showing that made it his worst memry,but his calling Lily "mudblood."

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2006 6:38 am (#52 of 56)
Others suggested that as the reason for it being the "worst" and I had to smack myself - "Duh!"

Snape removes that memory and a couple of others. Harry doesn't call it Snape's worst memory - JKR does - it's her chapter title.

Re-reading that chapter with this in mind, it changes the focus of the story. Harry gets yanked out of the memory before something even more embarrassing happens, but the chapter isn't called "Snape's Most Embarrassing Moment". It's his "Worst Memory".

Seems very telling to me.

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wynnleaf - Jul 31, 2006 1:56 pm (#53 of 56)
I've been reading that section several times over recently (for another thread somewhere), and noticed for the first time that after the mudblood comment, Snape doesn't say anything else. James, Lily, and Sirius all have several comments, but Snape doesn't say anything else -- no more responses to James even. Interesting that he was silent after that. So perhaps he was so distressed at what he said about Lily, that he wasn't paying a lot of attention to what James, Lily and Sirius were saying -- or maybe he just couldn't think of anything more to say that would be the right thing. Then again, maybe he was just trying to figure out how to get away...

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Soul Search - Jul 31, 2006 2:51 pm (#54 of 56)
Good pickup, wynnleaf.

I would think, from a literary standpoint, a last comment is highlighted. So, making Snape's last comment in the scene "mudblood" was meant to add importance to it.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2006 6:12 pm (#55 of 56)
Yes - I don't think a word as foul as "Mudblood" can be taken back easily.

Lily turned her back on him AND called him "Snivellus".

He blew it.

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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 21, 2006 1:47 pm (#56 of 56)
I am intensely disappointed that we have not yet gotten any more snippets of information about Lily. I didn't expect everythind, but I expected more than we got.

I am totally against the idea the Snape and Lily had a thing going, though. I think they got put togetherin NEWT potions and he developed a grudging respect for her talent, taht may have led to a friendship, but as I see it, she must have been putting a lot of energy into changing her opinion of James to go from calling him all of those names to marrying him, and I doubt if Snape figured into her life romantically at all. Whether he ever wished he would have is another story.