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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:42 am
Thoughts about Translations, Part 3
Detail Seeker - Sep 7, 2003 2:03 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 12:25 pm
This thread was originally title Fabulous beasts-translations; however the discussion expanded beyond the original scope of Detail Seeker and at his request the title was changed to Thoughts about Translations , Part 3. - Kip
On all of the old fora, we had discussions about translations, which werevery interesting. I think, we should have one - or even more - here, too. When rereading the english and the german version of FB, I thought, that while the translators kept most of the english names, they change a few and did not do too bad with those. So my idea cam up to make a table of the translations of all the beasts mentioned, that might be provided to the lexicon. For a start, I give the german translations to all the beasts, that were found worth of getting one:
centaurs - Zentauren
Chizpurfle - Kitzpurfel
Dugbog - Sumpfkrattler (Sumpf meaning swamp)
Ghoul - Ghul
Merepeople - Wassermenschen ( just translated)
pixy - Wichtel ( in german mythology, Wichtel are normally helpful beings) puffskein - Knuddelmuff ( Knuddeln means hug, embrace, best translation to my mind)
red caps - Rotkappen (word by word translation)
shrake - Schrake
Sea serpent - Seeschlange
Snidget - Schnatzer
Unicorn - Einhorn
So , which names do theses beasts have in your language ?
Thoughts about Translations, Part 3, index
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
Detail Seeker - Sep 7, 2003 2:03 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 12:25 pm
This thread was originally title Fabulous beasts-translations; however the discussion expanded beyond the original scope of Detail Seeker and at his request the title was changed to Thoughts about Translations , Part 3. - Kip
On all of the old fora, we had discussions about translations, which werevery interesting. I think, we should have one - or even more - here, too. When rereading the english and the german version of FB, I thought, that while the translators kept most of the english names, they change a few and did not do too bad with those. So my idea cam up to make a table of the translations of all the beasts mentioned, that might be provided to the lexicon. For a start, I give the german translations to all the beasts, that were found worth of getting one:
centaurs - Zentauren
Chizpurfle - Kitzpurfel
Dugbog - Sumpfkrattler (Sumpf meaning swamp)
Ghoul - Ghul
Merepeople - Wassermenschen ( just translated)
pixy - Wichtel ( in german mythology, Wichtel are normally helpful beings) puffskein - Knuddelmuff ( Knuddeln means hug, embrace, best translation to my mind)
red caps - Rotkappen (word by word translation)
shrake - Schrake
Sea serpent - Seeschlange
Snidget - Schnatzer
Unicorn - Einhorn
So , which names do theses beasts have in your language ?
Thoughts about Translations, Part 3, index
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:46 am
shepherdess - Sep 15, 2003 1:53 pm (#1 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
This isn't about beasts, but more about..languages, maybe? (I didn't want to start another thread.) Anyway, can someone explain the difference between pronounciations and meanings of "Madam" (as in "Pomfrey") and "Madame" (as in Maxime)?
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schoff - Sep 15, 2003 2:06 pm (#2 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 15, 2003 2:09 pm
I think the "a" sound in "Madam" is pronounced "ah" as in "cat". Mahdahm.
I think the "a" in "Madame" is 2 different sounds. The first "a" is "uh" as in "mud" and the second "a" is the "ah" sound. Muhdahm.
That's how I say it, anyways. I don't know how other dialects pronounce it.
I always think of "Madam" as a regular title, like "Miss" or "Missus". "Madame" connotes a bestowed title, like "Sir".
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megfox - Sep 15, 2003 4:29 pm (#3 of 334)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
They mean exactly the same thing, they are just differnt ways of spelling and pronouncing them. Madam is the English translation of the French term Madame. They are terms of resepct for a married woman.
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shepherdess - Sep 15, 2003 7:13 pm (#4 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Pomfrey and Maxime are married?
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megfox - Sep 15, 2003 7:43 pm (#5 of 334)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Well, as far as I know from 7 years of French, a woman with the title Madame is married.
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Hem Hem - Sep 15, 2003 9:19 pm (#6 of 334)
Hmmmm... she isn't Madamoiselle Maxime, I never realized that... and I highly doubt she's married, either. Poppy, on the other hand, could be married, and it wouldn't really present any continuity problems.
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fidelio - Sep 16, 2003 7:00 am (#7 of 334)
Then there's Madam Bones, and Madam Malkin, the robe lady, as well as Madam Hooch--But Molly is Mrs Weasley. Perhaps in the WW, "Madam" is a title of respect used for witches working outside the home, married or not, or for unmarried, adult witches?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 16, 2003 1:33 pm (#8 of 334)
In some cultures (German, for one) a woman of a "certain age" and position is no longer called Miss even if she's single, but Mrs.-- obviously the equivalent in that language. I believe in Elizabethan times that custom held true in England and in colonial America. It was a way of affording a modicum of respect to older, unmarried women. There are some Shakespearian and Dickens characters who are Mrs. So-and-So (being a woman of a "certain age" myself I, of course, cannot recall them just now).
In some languages (Hebrew, for one), there is no different word for adult married or unmarried women just as there is no difference for adult men in English.
So the title for the HP characters may be an honorific denoting position, accomplishment, and adulthood rather than marital status.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Sep 16, 2003 1:35 pm (#9 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Thank you, Madame Librarian. I was going to say just that, but also that this custom seems to apply as well to Mrs. Figg, who doesn't appear to be married. It is simply a sign of respect.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 10:10 am (#10 of 334)
In fact, if you want to get into the history of the English-language titles, both Miss and Mrs. are forms of Mistress--and in the seventeenth century, 'Miss' was not really a very respectful form of the title. It would suit the archaic tendencies of the WW to be using Madam, as a more elegant-sounding equivalent of Mistress, when a respectful form of address was wanted for adult women. The students, however, are addressed as 'Miss'--I guess since they aren't grown-ups yet.
But does this have much to do with other language titles for fabulous beasts? Or are women fabulous beasts, too?
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shepherdess - Sep 17, 2003 10:39 am (#11 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
You're correct, Fidelio, it has nothing to do with beasts, as I said when I asked the question. I also said I didn't want to start another thread (about translations). I thought I would just ask a question and get an answer, then we could get back on topic.
But now I'm wondering-with all due respect to Detail Seeker, who intended this thread to be about beasts-since no one was discussing beasts, and there seems to a bit of conversation about translations, maybe it would be a good idea to just make this a thread where we could discuss translations of everything *including* beasts. But I don't want to step on Detail Seeker's toes.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 10:45 am (#12 of 334)
Didn't mean to seem picky, shepherdess--but somehow the conjuction of women's titles and fabulous beasts reminded me of an old mountain man out west who admitted having once talked to a woman--in much the same way as if he were reporting a sighting of a genuine hippogriff! I'm sure you get the picture there. Not having looked over any of the translations, though, I'm at a loss to even guess what some of the labels that have been used for the fabulous beasts--especially the ones like Blast-ended skrewts which aren't a standard of myth and legend, like dragons and unicorns and such. *Looks around expectantly for readers in translation to post*
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Hem Hem - Sep 17, 2003 6:40 pm (#13 of 334)
I think it would make a lot of sense to turn this into a thread for all translation discussions...'just my opinion.
As for the use of the word "madam," maybe it's the wizarding world's female equivalent of "warlock"?
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Detail Seeker - Sep 19, 2003 1:05 pm (#14 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Hello, shepherdess and Hem Hem !
I would not mind a change in the denomination of this thread at all. I just wanted to start this translation discussion with a certain focus that was not accepted by the family. So why not turn it to topics that are accepted. So, let´s ask it to be moved to "General Discussions" and to be renamed, perhaps as "Thoughts about Translations , Part 3" (or is it 4??). I will aks the hosts to do so.
Fidelio,
I was just asking about the translations given in the non-English translation of Fabulous Beasts. I have the English and the German edition. If there are other editions, which I do not know, the translations could be looked up condensed and be given just the way I did. I have created a spreadsheet table for arranging all the translations, that is waiting to be filled. On the other hand, if somebody comes across an addressing of one type of beast in reading his books, just post the translation used there on this thread, I will do the collecting.
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Mad Goose - Oct 16, 2003 12:49 pm (#15 of 334)
Being American I am totaly confused about the use of Madam and Madamoiselle. I can tell you here that we're taught that unmarried is Miss, and Married is Mrs. In a letter, if I did not know if you are married or not it is assumed custom to address the reader as Mrs. I would like to know what the English custom truly is since this is where the books are set. One thing I can tell you is that if you came to America on vacation (holiday) you could introduce yourself as Madam or Madamoiselle and you'll be called by this title. Just like Dr. or Reverend etc.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 2:59 pm (#16 of 334)
Mad Goose, I have never heard of the custom you refer to (i.e., when in doubt use Mrs.). Perhaps it is a regional thing--where are you from? I'm from the Chicago area.
For the last 30 years or so, it has been customary in the US to use Ms. if one is unsure of marital status. Before that, it was considered safer to use Miss rather than Mrs.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Oct 16, 2003 3:24 pm (#17 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Absolutely agreed, Madame Librarian. Perhaps Mad Goose is much older than we are??
To answer Mad Goose's question - simply - the custom of using "Madamoiselle" as a form of address is limited only to very young women (teenagers to early 20's) and little girls. Otherwise it is customary to use "Madame" to show respect for a woman's age and experience. If you address a mature woman as Madamoiselle you are implying that her standing in the community is inferior - or at least that you think of her as such. It's all very complicated and goes back scores of generations, but suffice to say that, unless the woman herself corrects you, "Madame" is always a safe, respectful form of address.
See also Madame Librarian's excellent post #8 on this thread.
In the Harry Potter books, Madame (or Mr.) is a respectful title given to:
-- Those non-academic staff members at Hogwarts (i.e. Pompfrey, Pince). This includes Madame Hooch, who, while a teacher, is not involved in academic subjects.
-- Professional women of the Wizarding Community (i.e. Malkin, Bones, Rosemerta).
Otherwise, the use of Mrs. - as with Madame - is used to show respect for a woman's age and experience (i.e Mrs. Figg)
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Mad Goose - Oct 20, 2003 10:15 am (#18 of 334)
Madam Librarian I am in the deep south of Georgia. 35 miles north of Tallahassee Fla. So, it is possible that this is a southern custom. I've been reading this forum for quite some time now. I started because of my interest in Potter, but I've continued because of the cultural bounds we cross. I really enjoy reading about England and enjoy your culture so much.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2003 10:21 am (#19 of 334)
Mad Goose, I would have guessed your custom was a Southern one. What about the use of "ma'am?" That always struck me as something that would be used by a young person toward a mature (21 and up) woman whether married or not. This in not exactly on topic, here, so we should move on I guess.
Ciao. Barb
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Joost! - Nov 14, 2003 5:57 am (#20 of 334)
Second line of information
This is a reply to a question Kip Carter ask here: Kip Carter "Not Covered in Other Threads" 11/12/03 7:48am
In the Dutch books Christmas is translated to "Kerstmis" and Easter is "Pasen", so they are named after the Christian holidays. "Kerstmis" is (almost) never called Winter Break or such.
Halloween is Halloween (This is pronounced in the English way, as it is not a traditional feast in Holland. Only known here via American television and movies).
And just some basic things:
"Kerst" is a prefix used to describe everything that has to do Christmas:
"Kerstvakantie" = Christmas holiday
"Kerstversiering" = Christmas decoration(s)
"Kerstman" = Christmas Man/Santa Claus/Father Christmas (Also not traditionally Dutch)
"Paas" is a prefix for Easter
"Paasei" = Easter egg
"Paasvakantie" = Easter holiday
etc.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 14, 2003 8:09 am (#21 of 334)
Joost!, Thanks. You have enlightened me regarding a product name. Paas is the name of the most popular Easter egg coloring kit here in the US. I always wondered were the name came from.
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Kip Carter - Nov 14, 2003 9:53 am (#22 of 334)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Joost,
I appreciate your response and I figured this would be the case in most of the European countries and those "new world countries" (the United States, Canada, Mexico, the Central and South American countries) whose political and religious heritage is closely related to the European countries. This group of countries in Europe and those "new world countries" seem to have a common bond around some form of Chrisitianity and therefore the relating of period during the year to religious holiday is common.
The countries I would be most interest as to translations would be those countries without those ties to Christianity. How would the days be translated in countries that are basically Moslem, such as the Middle Eastern countries around Irag, Iran, etc. or some of the Asian countries like China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. where a religion other than Christianity is the religion of the majority.
That is the area of concern that I meant to question. I hope that makes sense.
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Essidji - Nov 15, 2003 8:54 am (#23 of 334)
Well, I have read your thoughts and understood what you would like to see in this tread now, but I have just found the translation of the very first paragraph of Book five in French, which is to come out only on december, 3rd. The translator's name is Jean-François Ménard : "La journée la plus chaude de l'été, jusqu'à présent en tout cas, tirait à sa fin et un silence somnolent s'était installé sur les grandes maisons aux angles bien droits de Privet Drive... La seule personne encore dehors à cette heure-ci était un jeune homme étendu de tout son long au milieu d'un massif de fleurs, devant le numéro quatre de la rue." This might give you an idea why I prefer reading the series in English : even if it is pretty well translated, the style remains different because of the barrier of the tongue. See how , to translate "The hottest day of the summer so far" we have to add words, which -to my mind- makes the sentence much heavier... Even if it doesn't really matter as this end of day is supposed to be drowsy, I find it much more pleasant to discover the story directly through the author's words.
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timrew - Nov 15, 2003 5:38 pm (#24 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I heard JKR in an interview say that Dumbledore (in the Italian translation, I think), was rendered as Professor, 'Silencio', because the translator had seen the 'Dumb' bit of the name and assumed that it meant 'silent'.
I was wondering what the names of characters have been changed to in other languages?
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 15, 2003 6:37 pm (#25 of 334)
Most names remained the same in the German translation. But there were a few changes:
Hermione Granger - Hermine Granger; Marge Dursley - Magda Dursley; Moaning Myrtle - Die Maulende Myrte; Scabbers - Krätze; Rita Skeeter - Rita Kimmkorn; Crookshanks - Krummbein; Wilhemina Grubbly-Plank - Wilhelmina Raue-Pritsche;
Sirius Black was changed into Sirius Schwarz in the early editions of PS. But it was changed back to Black, when Sirius played a bigger role in PoA.
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Carina - Nov 15, 2003 6:47 pm (#26 of 334)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Do the German translations have any special meaning? With the exception of Hermione and Marge, the rest of them give an extra hint to what kind of person they are or may be.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 16, 2003 3:17 am (#27 of 334)
Some, of them have a special meaning. Krummbein means Crookleg, therefore it is close to the english name. "Kimme" and "Korn" are a rifle's notch and bead. Therefore it still has a reference to "Skeeter", but not to the "moskito-meaning" of the name. "Maulen" means to moan and "Myrte" means Myrtle. Therefore this was directly translated. "Krätze" means itch. "Rau" means rough and "Pritsche" is a bat (not the animal, but the bat used in baseball).
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Detail Seeker - Nov 16, 2003 7:24 am (#28 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
"Pritsche" means a piece of wood, especially those wood planks used for making the basis of a bed.
So, the German translations seem rather uninspired to me, only Rita Kimmkorn being somewhat witty.
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2003 1:46 pm (#29 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
"La journée la plus chaude de l'été, jusqu'à présent en tout cas, tirait à sa fin et un silence somnolent s'était installé sur les grandes maisons aux angles bien droits de Privet Drive... La seule personne encore dehors à cette heure-ci était un jeune homme étendu de tout son long au milieu d'un massif de fleurs, devant le numéro quatre de la rue."
Essidji, while this translation is not exactly the same as the English original, it does well to convey the precise mood the author was going for, in my opinion. The addition of "jusqu'à présent en tout cas" lets us know that the entire summer had already been very hot.
But I agree with you that the translation doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily. One of the things I appreciate about Rowling's writing is her economy of words, which couldn't possibly be completely captured in translation every time.
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - Nov 21, 2003 5:41 pm (#30 of 334)
As I was skimming the spansih version of CoS (we get to read spanish kids books and magazines on Tuesdays in class), I tried to look for things like this. The names that I found were all the same, and then names of places (like Hogwarts) all seemed to be kept the same as well. Muggle wasn't changed, if I remember correctly. Mudblood was "sangresucio" (dirty blood), so I think it was translated pretty accurately.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 24, 2003 4:29 pm (#31 of 334)
I hope this is the right topic for it, but I don't know where else to put this. The German translations of all five books are currently in the Top 10 of the German bestselling list.
OotP is 1st, PS 3rd, PoA 6th, GoF 7th and CoS 9th.
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shepherdess - Dec 1, 2003 12:07 am (#32 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
How is "flesh eating slug repellant" translated in other languages?
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Ulrikke - Dec 1, 2003 6:19 am (#33 of 334)
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It's almost the same in Danish:
'Kødædende snegleudrydder' which means 'flesh eating slug wipe outer'.
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Hem Hem - Dec 1, 2003 8:23 pm (#34 of 334)
In Danish, does that mean that the substance repels slugs who eat flesh, or that the slug-repellent itself eats flesh? In English, it's completely ambiguous, but in another language, maybe it's clearer.
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Tomoé - Dec 2, 2003 5:21 pm (#35 of 334)
Back in business
In French, it's a "produit contre les limaces", that mean anti-slug product. They trash the concept of flesh-eating.
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shepherdess - Dec 2, 2003 7:45 pm (#36 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
So, at least in French, it's clear that the repellent kills the (flesh eating) slugs. It's good to have that cleared up, but I definitely don't want to think about flesh eating slugs. Ewwww...
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Joost! - Dec 3, 2003 1:30 am (#37 of 334)
Second line of information
I thought it at least was clear in English that it was a repellent for slugs. But I don't think the opinion of the translator has more value than our own, especially the native English speakers, since most translators are not native speakers.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 2:56 am (#38 of 334)
Back in business
I think the translator chose to discard the flesh-eating part because he was as clueless as we are.
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Ulrikke - Dec 3, 2003 7:00 am (#39 of 334)
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Hem, to answer your question: It means that it is the slug-repellent who eats flesh.
But I agree with Joost. Unless the translator has spoken to JK I don't think his/her opinion has more value than ours.
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timrew - Dec 3, 2003 12:32 pm (#40 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think it's just one of the vagaries of the English language. In one newspaper a while back, I read that the England cricket team were beaten by a team of part-timers, captained by a, "Thirty-three year old chicken farmer".
Did this mean the team captain was thirty-three years old; or did he farm thirty-three year old chickens?
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Hermione G - Dec 3, 2003 2:42 pm (#41 of 334)
Hi! I'm Italian. I have a question for you native English speakers about another ambiguous sentence: in the OoP, chapter 3, while talking about "elementary wand safety", Moody says: "AND I SAW THAT". Does it means he saw Tonks rolling her eyes to the ceiling (with his magical eye) or he witnessed someone loosing a buttock?
The Italian translation is literally "And I saw it happen", so there's no doubt it's the second one, but reading it in English first I thought it was the first one and it's much more funny! What do you think?
P.S. Flesh eating slug repellant is "repellente per lumache carnivore": it' clear that the slugs, not the repellant, eat flesh!
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Denise P. - Dec 3, 2003 3:07 pm (#42 of 334)
Ravenclaw Pony
Hi Hermione G! I read it to mean that he saw Tonks roll her eyes. It never occured to me that he may be referring to seeing someone's buttocks being blasted off. I think most English speakers would agree it refers to the eye roll.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 7:45 pm (#43 of 334)
Back in business
Even if I'm not native English speaker, I understand it as MEM referring to Tonks rolling her eyes.
By the way, Hermione G, do you know what the family name Zabini means ? We were looking for that information on the The Mystery Slytherin (OOP) thread, and we didn't find it in Italian dictionaries.
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Hermione G - Dec 4, 2003 12:01 pm (#44 of 334)
Well, the surname Zabini doesn't remind me of anything else. And I have to say that it would be a very strange name for an Italian family. Are you sure it's an Italian name? The sound of it makes me think that he (in the Italian translation he is a male) could come from eastern Europe. The name Blaise too isn't Italian and JKR usually chooses similar name and surname for students (Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, Seamus Finnigan...). Anyway I may be wrong.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 3:03 pm (#45 of 334)
Back in business
So it's not Italian, then maybe Arabic ? The name Blaise seem to originate from France, but Zabini don't sound French either. Even if he is not THE mystery slytherin, he's still mysterious that guy/girl/thing (?).
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septentrion - Dec 5, 2003 12:44 pm (#46 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Blaise is french ,and Zabini could be arabic but it's not sure.
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Doris Crockford - Dec 7, 2003 2:49 pm (#47 of 334)
I don't know if JKR really focuses on matching the nationalities of the first and last names of her characters. My last name is Arabic, and most of my family has names like Gary, Geoff, Jason, Sarah, and Andrea.
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 3:04 am (#48 of 334)
It seems the Norwegian translation is the only one where almost all names have been translated. Hmmmm... The translator has been praised for this, because Norwegians usually tend to keep the English names for things to such a degree that language researchers fear Norwegian as a pure language is at risk of extinction! (Long, bad sentence.)
The only names kept completely original is Harry Potter and those that sounds foreign to English speaking people as well, like Blaise Zabini, and Padma and Parvati Patil. Voldemort is still called that, but his full name is different. However, many of the names still resemble the original ones; Hermine Grang, Ronny Wiltersen ("vilter" means wild, feisty. Good name for them!), Remus Lupus, and so on.
If anyone is interested, there is a site that offers an English - Norwegian Harry Potter dictionary. It's intended for those who read Harry Potter in English, because they can't wait for the translation, so it's alphbetically indexed after the English words.
Here's a link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Don't worry that you don't understand what it says on the front page, just click a letter in the alphabet at the top. Enjoy!
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Joost! - Dec 12, 2003 3:30 am (#49 of 334)
Second line of information
The Dutch translator also translates most of the names. Only Harry Potter, Rubeus Hagrid and Madame Hooch are the same. And a lot of the foreign sounding names, but not all, Krum is Kruml in Dutch for example.
I like the name "McSnurp", Veronika, it sounds rather silly. And I noticed McNair is called McKnife, is "knife" a Norwegian word?
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 3:37 am (#50 of 334)
Oh, so you have checked it out already?
No, knife is not a Norwegian word. I have no idea why they have called him that.
"McSnurp" plays on McGonagall's strict personality. I don't know if the word "snurp" means anything in English. It gives assotiations to a facial expression that shows you are annoyed. Like McGonagall often is.
Edit: And I was a bit quick to say all names had been translated. Now I see that Madame Rosmerta and Madame Malkin also has the same names. So does Mrs. Figg. And now I see that wizard Baruffio with the buffalo-accident is the same guy who invented the brain elixir. First they didn't rename him, then they did.
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55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
This isn't about beasts, but more about..languages, maybe? (I didn't want to start another thread.) Anyway, can someone explain the difference between pronounciations and meanings of "Madam" (as in "Pomfrey") and "Madame" (as in Maxime)?
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schoff - Sep 15, 2003 2:06 pm (#2 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 15, 2003 2:09 pm
I think the "a" sound in "Madam" is pronounced "ah" as in "cat". Mahdahm.
I think the "a" in "Madame" is 2 different sounds. The first "a" is "uh" as in "mud" and the second "a" is the "ah" sound. Muhdahm.
That's how I say it, anyways. I don't know how other dialects pronounce it.
I always think of "Madam" as a regular title, like "Miss" or "Missus". "Madame" connotes a bestowed title, like "Sir".
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megfox - Sep 15, 2003 4:29 pm (#3 of 334)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
They mean exactly the same thing, they are just differnt ways of spelling and pronouncing them. Madam is the English translation of the French term Madame. They are terms of resepct for a married woman.
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shepherdess - Sep 15, 2003 7:13 pm (#4 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Pomfrey and Maxime are married?
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megfox - Sep 15, 2003 7:43 pm (#5 of 334)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
Well, as far as I know from 7 years of French, a woman with the title Madame is married.
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Hem Hem - Sep 15, 2003 9:19 pm (#6 of 334)
Hmmmm... she isn't Madamoiselle Maxime, I never realized that... and I highly doubt she's married, either. Poppy, on the other hand, could be married, and it wouldn't really present any continuity problems.
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fidelio - Sep 16, 2003 7:00 am (#7 of 334)
Then there's Madam Bones, and Madam Malkin, the robe lady, as well as Madam Hooch--But Molly is Mrs Weasley. Perhaps in the WW, "Madam" is a title of respect used for witches working outside the home, married or not, or for unmarried, adult witches?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 16, 2003 1:33 pm (#8 of 334)
In some cultures (German, for one) a woman of a "certain age" and position is no longer called Miss even if she's single, but Mrs.-- obviously the equivalent in that language. I believe in Elizabethan times that custom held true in England and in colonial America. It was a way of affording a modicum of respect to older, unmarried women. There are some Shakespearian and Dickens characters who are Mrs. So-and-So (being a woman of a "certain age" myself I, of course, cannot recall them just now).
In some languages (Hebrew, for one), there is no different word for adult married or unmarried women just as there is no difference for adult men in English.
So the title for the HP characters may be an honorific denoting position, accomplishment, and adulthood rather than marital status.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Sep 16, 2003 1:35 pm (#9 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Thank you, Madame Librarian. I was going to say just that, but also that this custom seems to apply as well to Mrs. Figg, who doesn't appear to be married. It is simply a sign of respect.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 10:10 am (#10 of 334)
In fact, if you want to get into the history of the English-language titles, both Miss and Mrs. are forms of Mistress--and in the seventeenth century, 'Miss' was not really a very respectful form of the title. It would suit the archaic tendencies of the WW to be using Madam, as a more elegant-sounding equivalent of Mistress, when a respectful form of address was wanted for adult women. The students, however, are addressed as 'Miss'--I guess since they aren't grown-ups yet.
But does this have much to do with other language titles for fabulous beasts? Or are women fabulous beasts, too?
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shepherdess - Sep 17, 2003 10:39 am (#11 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
You're correct, Fidelio, it has nothing to do with beasts, as I said when I asked the question. I also said I didn't want to start another thread (about translations). I thought I would just ask a question and get an answer, then we could get back on topic.
But now I'm wondering-with all due respect to Detail Seeker, who intended this thread to be about beasts-since no one was discussing beasts, and there seems to a bit of conversation about translations, maybe it would be a good idea to just make this a thread where we could discuss translations of everything *including* beasts. But I don't want to step on Detail Seeker's toes.
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fidelio - Sep 17, 2003 10:45 am (#12 of 334)
Didn't mean to seem picky, shepherdess--but somehow the conjuction of women's titles and fabulous beasts reminded me of an old mountain man out west who admitted having once talked to a woman--in much the same way as if he were reporting a sighting of a genuine hippogriff! I'm sure you get the picture there. Not having looked over any of the translations, though, I'm at a loss to even guess what some of the labels that have been used for the fabulous beasts--especially the ones like Blast-ended skrewts which aren't a standard of myth and legend, like dragons and unicorns and such. *Looks around expectantly for readers in translation to post*
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Hem Hem - Sep 17, 2003 6:40 pm (#13 of 334)
I think it would make a lot of sense to turn this into a thread for all translation discussions...'just my opinion.
As for the use of the word "madam," maybe it's the wizarding world's female equivalent of "warlock"?
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Detail Seeker - Sep 19, 2003 1:05 pm (#14 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Hello, shepherdess and Hem Hem !
I would not mind a change in the denomination of this thread at all. I just wanted to start this translation discussion with a certain focus that was not accepted by the family. So why not turn it to topics that are accepted. So, let´s ask it to be moved to "General Discussions" and to be renamed, perhaps as "Thoughts about Translations , Part 3" (or is it 4??). I will aks the hosts to do so.
Fidelio,
I was just asking about the translations given in the non-English translation of Fabulous Beasts. I have the English and the German edition. If there are other editions, which I do not know, the translations could be looked up condensed and be given just the way I did. I have created a spreadsheet table for arranging all the translations, that is waiting to be filled. On the other hand, if somebody comes across an addressing of one type of beast in reading his books, just post the translation used there on this thread, I will do the collecting.
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Mad Goose - Oct 16, 2003 12:49 pm (#15 of 334)
Being American I am totaly confused about the use of Madam and Madamoiselle. I can tell you here that we're taught that unmarried is Miss, and Married is Mrs. In a letter, if I did not know if you are married or not it is assumed custom to address the reader as Mrs. I would like to know what the English custom truly is since this is where the books are set. One thing I can tell you is that if you came to America on vacation (holiday) you could introduce yourself as Madam or Madamoiselle and you'll be called by this title. Just like Dr. or Reverend etc.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 2:59 pm (#16 of 334)
Mad Goose, I have never heard of the custom you refer to (i.e., when in doubt use Mrs.). Perhaps it is a regional thing--where are you from? I'm from the Chicago area.
For the last 30 years or so, it has been customary in the US to use Ms. if one is unsure of marital status. Before that, it was considered safer to use Miss rather than Mrs.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Oct 16, 2003 3:24 pm (#17 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Absolutely agreed, Madame Librarian. Perhaps Mad Goose is much older than we are??
To answer Mad Goose's question - simply - the custom of using "Madamoiselle" as a form of address is limited only to very young women (teenagers to early 20's) and little girls. Otherwise it is customary to use "Madame" to show respect for a woman's age and experience. If you address a mature woman as Madamoiselle you are implying that her standing in the community is inferior - or at least that you think of her as such. It's all very complicated and goes back scores of generations, but suffice to say that, unless the woman herself corrects you, "Madame" is always a safe, respectful form of address.
See also Madame Librarian's excellent post #8 on this thread.
In the Harry Potter books, Madame (or Mr.) is a respectful title given to:
-- Those non-academic staff members at Hogwarts (i.e. Pompfrey, Pince). This includes Madame Hooch, who, while a teacher, is not involved in academic subjects.
-- Professional women of the Wizarding Community (i.e. Malkin, Bones, Rosemerta).
Otherwise, the use of Mrs. - as with Madame - is used to show respect for a woman's age and experience (i.e Mrs. Figg)
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Mad Goose - Oct 20, 2003 10:15 am (#18 of 334)
Madam Librarian I am in the deep south of Georgia. 35 miles north of Tallahassee Fla. So, it is possible that this is a southern custom. I've been reading this forum for quite some time now. I started because of my interest in Potter, but I've continued because of the cultural bounds we cross. I really enjoy reading about England and enjoy your culture so much.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2003 10:21 am (#19 of 334)
Mad Goose, I would have guessed your custom was a Southern one. What about the use of "ma'am?" That always struck me as something that would be used by a young person toward a mature (21 and up) woman whether married or not. This in not exactly on topic, here, so we should move on I guess.
Ciao. Barb
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Joost! - Nov 14, 2003 5:57 am (#20 of 334)
Second line of information
This is a reply to a question Kip Carter ask here: Kip Carter "Not Covered in Other Threads" 11/12/03 7:48am
In the Dutch books Christmas is translated to "Kerstmis" and Easter is "Pasen", so they are named after the Christian holidays. "Kerstmis" is (almost) never called Winter Break or such.
Halloween is Halloween (This is pronounced in the English way, as it is not a traditional feast in Holland. Only known here via American television and movies).
And just some basic things:
"Kerst" is a prefix used to describe everything that has to do Christmas:
"Kerstvakantie" = Christmas holiday
"Kerstversiering" = Christmas decoration(s)
"Kerstman" = Christmas Man/Santa Claus/Father Christmas (Also not traditionally Dutch)
"Paas" is a prefix for Easter
"Paasei" = Easter egg
"Paasvakantie" = Easter holiday
etc.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 14, 2003 8:09 am (#21 of 334)
Joost!, Thanks. You have enlightened me regarding a product name. Paas is the name of the most popular Easter egg coloring kit here in the US. I always wondered were the name came from.
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Kip Carter - Nov 14, 2003 9:53 am (#22 of 334)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Joost,
I appreciate your response and I figured this would be the case in most of the European countries and those "new world countries" (the United States, Canada, Mexico, the Central and South American countries) whose political and religious heritage is closely related to the European countries. This group of countries in Europe and those "new world countries" seem to have a common bond around some form of Chrisitianity and therefore the relating of period during the year to religious holiday is common.
The countries I would be most interest as to translations would be those countries without those ties to Christianity. How would the days be translated in countries that are basically Moslem, such as the Middle Eastern countries around Irag, Iran, etc. or some of the Asian countries like China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. where a religion other than Christianity is the religion of the majority.
That is the area of concern that I meant to question. I hope that makes sense.
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Essidji - Nov 15, 2003 8:54 am (#23 of 334)
Well, I have read your thoughts and understood what you would like to see in this tread now, but I have just found the translation of the very first paragraph of Book five in French, which is to come out only on december, 3rd. The translator's name is Jean-François Ménard : "La journée la plus chaude de l'été, jusqu'à présent en tout cas, tirait à sa fin et un silence somnolent s'était installé sur les grandes maisons aux angles bien droits de Privet Drive... La seule personne encore dehors à cette heure-ci était un jeune homme étendu de tout son long au milieu d'un massif de fleurs, devant le numéro quatre de la rue." This might give you an idea why I prefer reading the series in English : even if it is pretty well translated, the style remains different because of the barrier of the tongue. See how , to translate "The hottest day of the summer so far" we have to add words, which -to my mind- makes the sentence much heavier... Even if it doesn't really matter as this end of day is supposed to be drowsy, I find it much more pleasant to discover the story directly through the author's words.
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timrew - Nov 15, 2003 5:38 pm (#24 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I heard JKR in an interview say that Dumbledore (in the Italian translation, I think), was rendered as Professor, 'Silencio', because the translator had seen the 'Dumb' bit of the name and assumed that it meant 'silent'.
I was wondering what the names of characters have been changed to in other languages?
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 15, 2003 6:37 pm (#25 of 334)
Most names remained the same in the German translation. But there were a few changes:
Hermione Granger - Hermine Granger; Marge Dursley - Magda Dursley; Moaning Myrtle - Die Maulende Myrte; Scabbers - Krätze; Rita Skeeter - Rita Kimmkorn; Crookshanks - Krummbein; Wilhemina Grubbly-Plank - Wilhelmina Raue-Pritsche;
Sirius Black was changed into Sirius Schwarz in the early editions of PS. But it was changed back to Black, when Sirius played a bigger role in PoA.
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Carina - Nov 15, 2003 6:47 pm (#26 of 334)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Do the German translations have any special meaning? With the exception of Hermione and Marge, the rest of them give an extra hint to what kind of person they are or may be.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 16, 2003 3:17 am (#27 of 334)
Some, of them have a special meaning. Krummbein means Crookleg, therefore it is close to the english name. "Kimme" and "Korn" are a rifle's notch and bead. Therefore it still has a reference to "Skeeter", but not to the "moskito-meaning" of the name. "Maulen" means to moan and "Myrte" means Myrtle. Therefore this was directly translated. "Krätze" means itch. "Rau" means rough and "Pritsche" is a bat (not the animal, but the bat used in baseball).
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Detail Seeker - Nov 16, 2003 7:24 am (#28 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
"Pritsche" means a piece of wood, especially those wood planks used for making the basis of a bed.
So, the German translations seem rather uninspired to me, only Rita Kimmkorn being somewhat witty.
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2003 1:46 pm (#29 of 334)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
"La journée la plus chaude de l'été, jusqu'à présent en tout cas, tirait à sa fin et un silence somnolent s'était installé sur les grandes maisons aux angles bien droits de Privet Drive... La seule personne encore dehors à cette heure-ci était un jeune homme étendu de tout son long au milieu d'un massif de fleurs, devant le numéro quatre de la rue."
Essidji, while this translation is not exactly the same as the English original, it does well to convey the precise mood the author was going for, in my opinion. The addition of "jusqu'à présent en tout cas" lets us know that the entire summer had already been very hot.
But I agree with you that the translation doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily. One of the things I appreciate about Rowling's writing is her economy of words, which couldn't possibly be completely captured in translation every time.
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - Nov 21, 2003 5:41 pm (#30 of 334)
As I was skimming the spansih version of CoS (we get to read spanish kids books and magazines on Tuesdays in class), I tried to look for things like this. The names that I found were all the same, and then names of places (like Hogwarts) all seemed to be kept the same as well. Muggle wasn't changed, if I remember correctly. Mudblood was "sangresucio" (dirty blood), so I think it was translated pretty accurately.
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Neville Longbottom - Nov 24, 2003 4:29 pm (#31 of 334)
I hope this is the right topic for it, but I don't know where else to put this. The German translations of all five books are currently in the Top 10 of the German bestselling list.
OotP is 1st, PS 3rd, PoA 6th, GoF 7th and CoS 9th.
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shepherdess - Dec 1, 2003 12:07 am (#32 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
How is "flesh eating slug repellant" translated in other languages?
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Ulrikke - Dec 1, 2003 6:19 am (#33 of 334)
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It's almost the same in Danish:
'Kødædende snegleudrydder' which means 'flesh eating slug wipe outer'.
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Hem Hem - Dec 1, 2003 8:23 pm (#34 of 334)
In Danish, does that mean that the substance repels slugs who eat flesh, or that the slug-repellent itself eats flesh? In English, it's completely ambiguous, but in another language, maybe it's clearer.
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Tomoé - Dec 2, 2003 5:21 pm (#35 of 334)
Back in business
In French, it's a "produit contre les limaces", that mean anti-slug product. They trash the concept of flesh-eating.
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shepherdess - Dec 2, 2003 7:45 pm (#36 of 334)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
So, at least in French, it's clear that the repellent kills the (flesh eating) slugs. It's good to have that cleared up, but I definitely don't want to think about flesh eating slugs. Ewwww...
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Joost! - Dec 3, 2003 1:30 am (#37 of 334)
Second line of information
I thought it at least was clear in English that it was a repellent for slugs. But I don't think the opinion of the translator has more value than our own, especially the native English speakers, since most translators are not native speakers.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 2:56 am (#38 of 334)
Back in business
I think the translator chose to discard the flesh-eating part because he was as clueless as we are.
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Ulrikke - Dec 3, 2003 7:00 am (#39 of 334)
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Hem, to answer your question: It means that it is the slug-repellent who eats flesh.
But I agree with Joost. Unless the translator has spoken to JK I don't think his/her opinion has more value than ours.
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timrew - Dec 3, 2003 12:32 pm (#40 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think it's just one of the vagaries of the English language. In one newspaper a while back, I read that the England cricket team were beaten by a team of part-timers, captained by a, "Thirty-three year old chicken farmer".
Did this mean the team captain was thirty-three years old; or did he farm thirty-three year old chickens?
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Hermione G - Dec 3, 2003 2:42 pm (#41 of 334)
Hi! I'm Italian. I have a question for you native English speakers about another ambiguous sentence: in the OoP, chapter 3, while talking about "elementary wand safety", Moody says: "AND I SAW THAT". Does it means he saw Tonks rolling her eyes to the ceiling (with his magical eye) or he witnessed someone loosing a buttock?
The Italian translation is literally "And I saw it happen", so there's no doubt it's the second one, but reading it in English first I thought it was the first one and it's much more funny! What do you think?
P.S. Flesh eating slug repellant is "repellente per lumache carnivore": it' clear that the slugs, not the repellant, eat flesh!
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Denise P. - Dec 3, 2003 3:07 pm (#42 of 334)
Ravenclaw Pony
Hi Hermione G! I read it to mean that he saw Tonks roll her eyes. It never occured to me that he may be referring to seeing someone's buttocks being blasted off. I think most English speakers would agree it refers to the eye roll.
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Tomoé - Dec 3, 2003 7:45 pm (#43 of 334)
Back in business
Even if I'm not native English speaker, I understand it as MEM referring to Tonks rolling her eyes.
By the way, Hermione G, do you know what the family name Zabini means ? We were looking for that information on the The Mystery Slytherin (OOP) thread, and we didn't find it in Italian dictionaries.
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Hermione G - Dec 4, 2003 12:01 pm (#44 of 334)
Well, the surname Zabini doesn't remind me of anything else. And I have to say that it would be a very strange name for an Italian family. Are you sure it's an Italian name? The sound of it makes me think that he (in the Italian translation he is a male) could come from eastern Europe. The name Blaise too isn't Italian and JKR usually chooses similar name and surname for students (Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, Seamus Finnigan...). Anyway I may be wrong.
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Tomoé - Dec 4, 2003 3:03 pm (#45 of 334)
Back in business
So it's not Italian, then maybe Arabic ? The name Blaise seem to originate from France, but Zabini don't sound French either. Even if he is not THE mystery slytherin, he's still mysterious that guy/girl/thing (?).
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septentrion - Dec 5, 2003 12:44 pm (#46 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Blaise is french ,and Zabini could be arabic but it's not sure.
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Doris Crockford - Dec 7, 2003 2:49 pm (#47 of 334)
I don't know if JKR really focuses on matching the nationalities of the first and last names of her characters. My last name is Arabic, and most of my family has names like Gary, Geoff, Jason, Sarah, and Andrea.
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 3:04 am (#48 of 334)
It seems the Norwegian translation is the only one where almost all names have been translated. Hmmmm... The translator has been praised for this, because Norwegians usually tend to keep the English names for things to such a degree that language researchers fear Norwegian as a pure language is at risk of extinction! (Long, bad sentence.)
The only names kept completely original is Harry Potter and those that sounds foreign to English speaking people as well, like Blaise Zabini, and Padma and Parvati Patil. Voldemort is still called that, but his full name is different. However, many of the names still resemble the original ones; Hermine Grang, Ronny Wiltersen ("vilter" means wild, feisty. Good name for them!), Remus Lupus, and so on.
If anyone is interested, there is a site that offers an English - Norwegian Harry Potter dictionary. It's intended for those who read Harry Potter in English, because they can't wait for the translation, so it's alphbetically indexed after the English words.
Here's a link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Don't worry that you don't understand what it says on the front page, just click a letter in the alphabet at the top. Enjoy!
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Joost! - Dec 12, 2003 3:30 am (#49 of 334)
Second line of information
The Dutch translator also translates most of the names. Only Harry Potter, Rubeus Hagrid and Madame Hooch are the same. And a lot of the foreign sounding names, but not all, Krum is Kruml in Dutch for example.
I like the name "McSnurp", Veronika, it sounds rather silly. And I noticed McNair is called McKnife, is "knife" a Norwegian word?
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 3:37 am (#50 of 334)
Oh, so you have checked it out already?
No, knife is not a Norwegian word. I have no idea why they have called him that.
"McSnurp" plays on McGonagall's strict personality. I don't know if the word "snurp" means anything in English. It gives assotiations to a facial expression that shows you are annoyed. Like McGonagall often is.
Edit: And I was a bit quick to say all names had been translated. Now I see that Madame Rosmerta and Madame Malkin also has the same names. So does Mrs. Figg. And now I see that wizard Baruffio with the buffalo-accident is the same guy who invented the brain elixir. First they didn't rename him, then they did.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:50 am
Joost! - Dec 12, 2003 3:52 am (#51 of 334)
Second line of information
I just noticed most first names have not been translated in Dutch. I can only think of Hermione who is called Hermelien (I really don't like this name) and Justin Finch-Fletchley who is called Joost (I really do like this name ) Flets-Friemel. But I'll have to do better research to be sure about other characters.
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 5:48 am (#52 of 334)
We all bet you do. The Norwegian translator must have thought his English name was boring, because he named him Julius Finkenfjær. And I can assure you, that is not an ordinary Norwegian name. Fink is a little bird, very colorful, fjær means feathers. He was named this in the first book, when all we knew was that he was sorted into Hufflepuff, so it has nothing to do with his personality.
Colin Creevey, on the other hand, has been given a more interesting name: Frodrik Fromm. Frodrik is a (hopefully) not existing form of Fredrik, which is a common boys name. "From" is a bit hard to explain, but it usually describes someone very religious, or someone who never does anything wrong (and could be disliked for that). I'm not sure what "Creevey" means, but does it have anything to do with the word "creed", that has no exact Norwegian translation, but which I understand has something to do with faith?
Oh, and I like the name for Millicent Bullstrode, Milly Bylling. "Bylle" means boil. Not what you do to an egg, but what Neville gets after his first potions-accident. I guess this is meant to show how discusting Slytherins can be.
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Joost! - Dec 12, 2003 7:19 am (#53 of 334)
Second line of information
I think "From" means pious, it resebles the Dutch word "vroom" which means pious.
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Psyche - Dec 12, 2003 2:57 pm (#54 of 334)
Well, the Creevey brothers are very devoted to Harry, maybe the translator wanted to emphasise that?
My greatest translation irritation is Dumbledore's name in Dutch, it's changed to Perkamentus ("perkament" is parchment in Dutch). Although I can understand it's not changed to "hommel" (the Dutch word for bumblebee), why parchment? Sorry if this has been brought up before, but this is one of the few things that annoy me about the Dutch translation. I'm folliwing a translation course at the moment and I know how hard it can be.
Psyche
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septentrion - Dec 14, 2003 9:31 am (#55 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
In French, only a few names have been translated :
-Snape into Rogue = offensive, arrogant
-Bagman into Verpey = phonetically, it is V.R.P., ie travelling salesman
-Umbridge into Ombrage = shade, or used in expressions like "porter ombrage à quelqu'un" which means "to offend sb"
-Tom Marvolo Riddle into Tom Elvis Jedusor = the translator needed the letters to make "je suis lord Voldemort" (I am lord Voldemort). Plus he played on words with "jedusor", which can be read like "jeux du sort", ie "fate games" or "spell games".
-Lonbottom into Londubat = phonetically means longbottom
-Malfoy have become "Malefoy", which is more logical in french for "Foy" (faith) is a feminine word and the "e" is the mark for the feminine
Some places have been translated too :
-Diagon Alley into chemin de traverse = shortcut
-Hogwarts into poudlard = pou means louse, and lard means bacon
-Hogsmeade into pré-au-lard = pré means mead
-hogshead into tête de sanglier = tête means head and sanglier means boar
-the burrow = le terrier (simple translation)
-grimmauld place into square grimmaurd, which is pronounced "gris mort", ie "grey dead".
I don't remember if others names have been translated, but in french like in Norvegian, the translators aren't used to translate the names. After all, everybody knows the story takes place in England and it would be too strange if the characters had non english names.
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VeronikaG - Dec 15, 2003 4:46 am (#56 of 334)
Well, some of them have gotten very Norwegian names, that seem a bit strange, as the setting is still England. I guess they had to do it so the youngest readers would pick up on the descriptive character of names, but the English wouldn't know how to pronounce some of these names. Luna Lovegood has, for example, become "Line Loveland", pronounced "Lee-neh Lo-veh-land". Her surname is probably misspelled a bit, to keep the "Love" part of it. In correct spelling it should be "Låveland" - "barn land". The Norwegian letter "å" is pronounced like the "o" in "love", and the "a" in "hall".
And what more, we do have a character named "Luna". They have actually translated Mooney to Luna! Have anyone else heard about a characters interchanging names during translation?
And to Joost, who thought "from" meant pious; Yes, I think it could mean that. In Norway we have a word for someone strongly religious, who believes that God will be angry with him if he's too happy. Such a person is called a "pietist", from the Latin word for feet. They were supposed to look at their feet when they walked, not raise their heads, as that would be too proud. Does a pious person behave something like this?
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Madame Librarian - Dec 15, 2003 5:47 am (#57 of 334)
Veronika, yes, "fromm" in German means pious; also "frum" in Yiddish (which is closely related to German) means pious. I love your explanation about piety meaning looking down at your feet so as not to appear too happy. My mother always yelled at me to watch where I was going and not look down, which was a habit of mine. Believe me, I was not being pious; I simply loved shoes and watched mine (especially if new-ish) and everyone else's. Weird, eh.
Ciao. Barb
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VeronikaG - Jan 12, 2004 3:41 am (#58 of 334)
I have found a possible explanation about the Norwegian name of Mac Nair being translated to Mac Knife, which isn't Norwegian. I saw a film recently, where a student says he has a tape of his head master singing "Mac the Knife" in his underwear. So is that a famous American song that I for some reason haven't heard of?
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Madame Librarian - Jan 12, 2004 9:59 am (#59 of 334)
VeronikaG, it is not American. It is one of the songs written by Kurt Weill for Bertol Brecht's "Threepenny Opera." The opera, first performed in New York in the mid-1950s, I think (don't hold me to that) was a big success and this song was recorded by many artists as a stand-alone number. In the 60s, heart throb Bobby Darin recorded it and it had a revival among teenyboppers.
Here are the lyrics:
lyrics
Keep in mind that the Brecht play was originally written in German and so were the lyrics to all the songs. Weill, though, was comfortable in the English language as he was a successful Hollywood screenwriter in the 30s and 40s. I noted that the library record shows someone else as the lyric translator, but that could be because both Weill and Brecht died in 1950, and the work itself was not published in any language until 1955. In any event, the odd (very odd) song lyrics cannot be totally understood out of the play's context, so it was a bit surprising that it had such stand-alone success. The music is way coooool (slow dance!).
I know, way too much info.
Ciao. Barb
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VeronikaG - Jan 13, 2004 4:40 am (#60 of 334)
Thank you for clearing that up, Barb. I wondered a bit if this song was somewhat "dirty" (the teen film with the singing head master was a bit like American Pie), and I didn't like the Idea that the clever Norwegian translator had used a name from a "dirty" song in a book read by children. It was kind of bizarre, though (the song).
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nmnjr - Feb 2, 2004 7:57 pm (#61 of 334)
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
Didn't know where else to put this, but there is a translation of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone into Latin. My sister (a first-year Latin student at college) got it for Christmas. It's pretty neat.
You can look through some of the pages on amazon.com by searching for "Harrius Potter."
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Hem Hem - Feb 2, 2004 8:11 pm (#62 of 334)
It's a very fun read, I can tell you that. And you can buy it at some Barnes and Nobles...I saw it there in the foreign childrens' books once and bought it before even looking at the price tag.
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Mare - Feb 3, 2004 4:22 am (#63 of 334)
A latin version? How cool! But since I already have problems with my latin version of "Jip en Janneke" (Jippus et Janneka) which is a parents-need-to-read-this-to-their-children-because-they-may-not-be-able-to-do-it-themselves-book I don't think I would be able to read it. (I chose greek, but I can't translate that anymore too)
Erm.. what was the point of this post again? O yes, nmnjr, you should post this on the recommended reading thread, there might be a few forum members interested in buying this book! :silygrin:
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VeronikaG - Feb 3, 2004 5:56 am (#64 of 334)
Are you reading in Latin? Seriously? Isn't that the most difficult language in the world to learn?
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nmnjr - Feb 3, 2004 5:34 pm (#65 of 334)
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
Thanks, Mare. I'll do that.
Jazhara Ravenclaw - Feb 3, 2004 6:12 pm (#66 of 334)[/b]
Well, alot of words in English came from Latin or Greek origins and word parts, right? You pick up a lot of them from science classes hehe. Does anyone know if HP 5 has been released in pretty much every country that has the first 4 yet?
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Devika - Feb 4, 2004 6:54 am (#67 of 334)
Jazhara, I don't think I understood what exactly you meant by your last sentence. Can you explain?... Sorry for being so thick!
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Anna L. Black - Feb 4, 2004 9:35 am (#68 of 334)
This is off the current topic, but as we're speaking about translations, I thought that I should add it (I hope I'm not repeating something from another thread, I read the Part 1 of this thread, but couldn't find part 2...)
As far as I can see, many translations also include a lot of name-translations. However, in the Hebrew version of the books, almost all of the names are the same as in the original book - the names of the students, of the proffesors, of the houses, of most of the places (e.g. Diagon Alley is 'Simtat Diagon', Simta = Alley)....
There are a few names that were translated (Mainly names of people who wrote Harry's school books - really minor characters, in short...), and also a few of the magical creatures (e.g. Blast ended screwts. In the 5th book, both 'thestrals' and another name is used, which can be a bit confusing, but that's not a big deal...) 'Dementor' was also translated, into 'soharsan' - where 'soher' is a prison-guard, and 'harsan' is 'destructive' - it's one of the translations that I really liked.
Some of the quidditch terms were translated - Chaser, Beater and Seeker, obviously, and also Bludger. The other terms - Quidditch, Snitch, Quaffle - remained the same.
Tom Marvolo Riddle became Tom Vandrolo Riddle, in order to fit the letters of "I am Lord Voldemort" in Hebrew. The Mirror of Erised became The Mirror of yanfata - the last letters of the words "my face" (It actually should be "your face", but I can't remember the exact writing, and I don't have the books to check out.... Never mind.) I also don't remember what they did to the riddle of the sphynx.
Also, obviously, the names of the subjects were translated, which was fine until the fifth book came out - and then, 'occlumency' became something completely twisted, that doesn't sound good.
Personally, I think that keeping the original names is much better than translating them - I've read bits of the first book in Russian, and the translation is simply horrible. Especially the name-translations. (Russian speakers - this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] includes many of the stupid translations in the books - and it's really funny to read the comments about them)
I've read (and have) all of the books in English, and read the Hebrew versions only once - it's good, but the original is much much better. What's interesting, though, is that the translators cannot contact JKR about hidden meanings - I've heard it personally (via the internet, but still personally) from the Israeli translator. That means that we shouldn't count so much on meanings of differences in the translations - every translator is more or less free to do whatever he likes....
That were my thoughts about translations... I never intended it too be that long *blushing*
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - Feb 4, 2004 3:13 pm (#69 of 334)
Yeah, just to clarify, looking back- I knew what I was talking about hehe.. I was just wondering if all the countries that have the first 4 books have gotten the 5th one yet (after seeing the release for the Spanish #5 is in feb). The 5th book probably took more time to translate anyway, as it's the longest, even though a lot of the terms and names ahve already been changed.
I have a question for those people that read it in other languages, though. Is it confusing to have some terms translated and others kept the same?
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Joost! - Feb 6, 2004 3:29 am (#70 of 334)
Second line of information
I didn't think it was confusing, I read the first fourbooks only in Dutch and every name and term has been translated. What was confusing was when I found the Lexicon and I had to figure out the English equivalents of the names I knew in Dutch. It took me a while but now both versions are interchangable to me, it doesn't really matter much anymore.
BTW, the Dutch translation of OoP was released in November, but I could wait that long so I bought the English version when it came out in June.
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septentrion - Feb 6, 2004 12:41 pm (#71 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think like Joost except that it was in French for me. In fact I only realized that some names had been translated when I read the English version but now I'm so much accustomed to the English version that I have to think of what or who it is when I hear the French names!
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Czarina - Feb 6, 2004 3:04 pm (#72 of 334)
Which names were translated into French?
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scully jones - Feb 6, 2004 6:37 pm (#73 of 334)
yeah right
Yeah, I'd like to know what all the names are changed to. There must be a site somewhere with all of the differences.
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Tomoé - Feb 6, 2004 7:45 pm (#74 of 334)
Back in business
Mad Eye Moody -> Maugrey Fol Oeil (I can explain why they change Moody to Maugrey)
Dolores Umbridge -> Dolores Ombrage (sound almost the same, but means shade)
Severus Snape -> Severus Rogues (my 10 years old cousin was quite indignant of that meaningless change ^_^)
Malfoy -> Malefoy (which is a correction to make the name 100% Old French)
Neville Longbottom -> Neville Longdubas (sp?)
And many others that I don't remember, but must of the problems or about all those tiny details that have been adapted.
Dementor -> Épouvantard (sp?)
Diagon Alley -> Rue de la Traverse
Grim -> Sinistros
OWL -> BUSE
Fang -> Crocdure
The kind of thing that you sometimes forget to translated and that make the others ask you : "What are you talking about?"
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scully jones - Feb 6, 2004 8:42 pm (#75 of 334)
yeah right
Cool.........
How about other languages? There are a lot of forum members on here who have alternate versions.
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septentrion - Feb 7, 2004 12:32 pm (#76 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Tomoe, you've made a little mistake : épouvantard is boggart and dementor is détraqueur. You must have the same problem than me : too much accustomed to the english version
I've posted some translations before , just click on the link post#55
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Detail Seeker - Feb 7, 2004 1:45 pm (#77 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
At the start of this thread, I asked for Translations of the names of all the creatures in Fabulous Beasts in different languages but never got any answers to that. Maybe, this is the time to renew this question.
I try to get an Excel-table with all the translations and make this postable afterwards. So I am thankful for Input !
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Tomoé - Feb 7, 2004 4:36 pm (#78 of 334)
Back in business
Er ... right septentrion, a short-cut in my brain, really, I just don't know what happen. o.O
I read your demand last time, Detail Seeker, but I own a English copy of FB. I should take a look in the library nearby, maybe I'll find a French one.
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Hem Hem - Feb 8, 2004 12:10 am (#79 of 334)
Mamash Me'anyen, Anna! I speak Hebrew, but have never more than glanced at the Hebrew versions. Your analysis was enlightening!
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VeronikaG - Feb 8, 2004 6:04 am (#80 of 334)
Hi Detail Seeker. Here are some Norwegian monsters for you.
Boggart = Hambuse (Ham = something you wear, take on. Buse = boogie)
Dementor = Desperant
Basilisk = ditto
Hippogriff = ditto
Dragon = Drage
Blast Ended Screwts = Sprengstjerta Skrutter (Sprenge = blow up, stjert = tail or something)
Blibbering Humdinger = Jatrende Prima
Banshee = Brøleånd/Ule (Ule = to howl)
Troll = Troll (Hey, we invented them)
Hag = Gygre (And Hagrid = Gygrid)
Aragog = Argarapp
Mosag = ditto
Kneasel = Katapard (Cat = Katt)
Manticore = Mantikora
Re'em = Reym
Red Cap = Rødhette (Red Hood. Useless information; we call Little Red Riding Hood "Rødhette")
Runespoore = Smygspore (Smyge = slither. Guess what house we call Smygard)
Werewolf = Varulv
Lethifold = ditto
Grindylow = Snaredraug
Hinkypunk = Lyktemann (Lamp Man)
Mooncalf = Månenaut
Kappa = Strypenøkk (Strype = to strangle)
Kelpie = Nøkk
Knarl = Trassel
If I left out some important ones, you can check this link, It's indexed by English names.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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septentrion - Feb 8, 2004 1:57 pm (#81 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
detail seeker, I'll try to help (first English, second French): acromantula = ditto / ashwinder = serpencendre / augurey = ditto / basilisk = basilic / billywig = ditto / bowtruckle = botruc / bundimun = bandimon / centaur = centaure / chimaera = chimère / chizpurfle = ciseburine / clabbert = ditto / crup = croup / demiguise = ditto / diricawl = dirico / doxy = ditto / dragon = ditto / antipodean opaleye = opaloeil des antipodes / chinese fireball = boutefeu chinois / common welsh green = vert gallois commun / hebridean black = noir des Hébrides / hungarian horntail = magyar à pointes / norwegian ridgeback = norvégien à crête / peruvian vipertooth = dent-de-vipère du Pérou / romanian longhorn = cornelongue roumain / swedish short-snout = suédois à museau court / ukrainian ironbelly = pansedefer ukrainien / dugbog = fangieux / erkling = ditto / erumpent = eruptif / fairy = fée / fire crab = crabe de feu / flobberworm = veracrasse / fwooper = focifère / ghoul = goule / glumbumble = grinchebourdon / gnome = dotto / graphorn = grapcorne / griffin = griffon / grindylow = strangulot / Hippocampus = hippocampe / hipogriff = hipogriffe / horklump = horglup / imp = diablotin / jarvey = chartier / jobberknoll = jobarbille / kappa = ditto / kelpie = kelpy / knarl = noueux / kneazle = fléreur / Leprechaun = farfadet / lethifold = moremplis / lobalug = verlieu / mackled malaclaw = malagrif tacheté / manticore = ditto / merpeople = êtres de l'eau / moke = ditto / mooncalf = veaudelune / murtlap = murlap / niffler = niffleur / nogtail = licheur / nundu = ditto / occamy = ditto / phoenix = phénix / pixie = lutin / plimpy = boullu / pogrebin = povrebine / porlock = ditto / puffskein = boursouf / Quintaped = ditto / ramora = rémora / red cap = chaporouge / re'em = ditto / runespoor = ditto / salamender = salamandre / sea serpent = serpent de mer / shrake = sharak / snidget = vivet / sphinx = ditto / streeler = musard / tebo = ditto / troll = ditto / unicorn = licorne / werewolf = loup-garou / winged horse = cheval ailé (abraxan = ditto, aethonan = ethonan, granian = gronian, thestral = thestral in FB and sombral in OoTP) / yeti = yéti
Oh, I didn't intend to check all the book but yet I've done it. Please detail seeker, when you've taken the information you need, tell me so that I can delete this post : I'm afraid it would be too boring for most readers. Hope I have helped !
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Detail Seeker - Feb 8, 2004 1:59 pm (#82 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Thank you, Veronika and Septentrion ! Two more rows filled with information. Some rather nice translations have, I think been found (I liked esp. Lyktemann..) And I do not think, this will bore most readers, but let´s hear, if anybody complains.
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:20 am (#83 of 334)
Second line of information
Don't delete your post, Sep. If it's boring to anyone they don't have to read it.
"thestral = thestral in FB and sombral in OoTP"
This is interesting, did the two books have different translators?
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septentrion - Feb 10, 2004 12:40 pm (#84 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
thank you joost and detail seeker for your encouragement ! I'll listen to you and won't delete my post.
As for your question about thestral/sombral in french, I don't know, I'll search it and tell you because the translator's name isn't printed in french versions of FB and QA. (btw, sombral would be something like "darkal").
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Neville Longbottom - Feb 10, 2004 4:09 pm (#85 of 334)
On this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is listed how the different names and terms are translated into the other languages. This sign: * means, that the word is the same as in the English original. Howeever, it only includes the words from book 1-4, not the new characters and terms from book 5.
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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2004 7:57 pm (#86 of 334)
Back in business
By the way, Detail Seeker, phoenix in Japanese is "fushichou", literally immortal bird.
Jazhara Ravenclaw, the Japanese version of Order of the phoenix is not release yet, but we know it will be titled "Harii Pottaa to fushichou no Kishidan".
Thanks for the link Neville, I didn't remember Squib to be called Cracmol in French.
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septentrion - Feb 11, 2004 1:06 pm (#87 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Joost, I have the answer (the editor answered very quickly to my mail) : Jean-François Ménard has translated all JKR's books, the HP serie and FB and QA. But why he has translated thestrals in OotP and not in FB, I don't know. I have my own idea : in FB, thestrals aren't important but in OotP they are, and the translation (sombral) gives an idea about how they look (sombral = "darkal").
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Mare - Feb 11, 2004 4:36 pm (#88 of 334)
Edited Feb 12, 2004 4:13 am
For Immo, dutch beastnames;
Acromantula - Acromantula
Ashwinder - Aswinder
Augurey - Augurei
Basilisk - Basilisk
Billywig - Billywig
Bowtruckle - Boomtrul : Boom = tree
Bundimun - Bundimun
Centaur - Centaur
Chimaera - Chimaera
Chizpurfle - Kontamineet : This is the dutch version of the Glumbumble joke. Kont meaning bum. You also have the wordplay on contamination
Clabbert - Clabbert
Crup - Crup
Demiguise - Demiguise
Diricrawl - Dirikal
Doxy - Doxy
Dragon - Draak
Antipodean Opaleye - Antipodische Opaaloog
Chinese Fireball - Chinese Zenger : Zengen means to scorch or to singe
Common Welsh Green - Gewone Groene Huisdraak : Common Green Housedragon...
Hebridean Black - Hebridische Zwartkop : Zwartkop means blackhead
Hungarian Horntail - Hongaarse Hoornstaart
Norwegian Ridgeback - Noorse Bultrug : Bultrug is also the name for the humpback whale
Peruvian Vipertooth - Peruaanse Addertand
Romanian Longhorn - Roemeense Langhoorn
Swedish Short-Snout - Zweedse Stompsnuit : Stompsnuit meaning stumpsnout
Ukrainian Ironbelly - Oekraiense Ijzerbuik
Dugbog - Doolzomp : dolen is to roame or to wander and zomp means swamp
Erkling - Erkling
Erumpent - Erumpent
Fairy - Fee
Fire Crab - Vuurkrab
Flobberworm - Flubberwurm
Fwooper - Fwoeper
Ghoul - Grauwel : grauw meaning gloomy/gray and/or growl
Glumbumble - Kommerhommel : kommer means sorrow and a hommel is a bumblebee
Gnome - Kabouter
Graphorn - Graphorn
Griffin - Griffioen
Grindylow - Wierling : wier is seaweed
Hippocampus - Hippocampus
Hippogriff - Hippogrief
Horklump - Horklump
Imp - Alf : I have no idea why this is translated
Jarvey - Jarvey
Jobberknoll - Juttemus : This one I like, a mus is a sparrow. But the word juttemis is used when you want to make clear that things are never going to happen. For example: "When are pigs going to fly?" "With St. Juttemis"
Kappa - Kappa
Kelpie - Kelpie
Knarl - Knarl
Kneazle - Kwistel : sounds like kwispel: to wag.
Leprechaun - Ierse Kabouter : Irish gnome
Lethifold - Stik-de-Moord : choke-the-murder. If I remember correctly this is/was used as a swearword.
Lobalug - Lobbelog : a log is something heavy/cumbersome.
Mackled Malaclaw - Lagerwalkrab : lower shore crab, from the expression "aan lager wal raken" = come down in the world/get into low water.
Manticore - Mantichore
Merpeople - Meermensen
Moke - Mook
Mooncalf - Maankalf
Murtlap - Murtlap
Niffler - Delfstoffer : mineraler
Nogtail - Nogtands : tand is tooth
Nundu - Noendoe
Occamy - Occamy
Phoenix - Feniks
Pixie - Keltisch Aardmannetje : Celtic gnome
Plimpy - Plimpy
Pogrebin - Pogrebin
Porlock - Porlock
Puffskein - Pulkerik : pulken means to pick, like in "pick your nose" the extension -erik implicates this beast is doing just that, picking something.
Quintaped - Quintaped
Ramora - Ramora
Red Cap - Roodkopje : redhead
Re'em - Re'em
Runespoor - Runespoor
Salamander - Salamander
Sea Serpent - Zeeslang : Sea snake
Shrake - Scheldvis : Another good one. A Schelvis is a haddock, but Schelden means to scold.
Snidget - Smiecht : A sneaky person. The word for snidge is snaai, which would come from snaaien, to fastly grab something (preferably from in front of somebody elses nose)
Sphinx - Sfinx
Streeler - Streeler
Tebo - Tebo
Troll - Trol
Unicorn - Eenhoorn : Onehorn, normal mythical name for the horned horse
Werewolf - Weerwolf
Winged Horse - Vliegend Paard : Flying horse
Abraxan - Abraxas
Aethonan - AethoniËr
Granian - Granische Grijze : Grijze means the gray
Thestral - Thestralis (FB&OoP) Terzieler (OoP) : a "ziel" is a soul. Ter ziele gaan, (going to the souls) would be to die.
Yeti - Yeti
Pfffffff.
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Detail Seeker - Feb 12, 2004 12:39 am (#89 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Thanks, Steffie !
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Joost! - Feb 12, 2004 2:38 am (#90 of 334)
Second line of information
Some of those are a quite good, I should get a copy of the Dutch version of FB.
By the way, a Thestral is also called a "Terzieler" in the Dutch OoP. I'm not really sure why it has two names, but in OoP Hagrid says something like: "Very good, it's a Terzieler, also known as Thestralis." (Not an exact translation)
So both names are used in the same book. I had completely forgotten this, but I did an online search about it. Maybe it's the same in the French version..
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Mare - Feb 12, 2004 4:05 am (#91 of 334)
Thanks Joost, I only had the dutch copy of FB with me and not the dutch version of OoP.
I think the translator solved that problem very nicely. As you can see a lot of names in the list are the same.From the ones he translated the most have a "more dutch" name because they were used in the books. With thestrals he obviously, like the french translator, wanted to give a name with more meaning to his non-english readers. I think the "also known as" concept was a nice way of solving the problem that he hadn't translated that name in FB.
Bye the way, I might go back and edit that list to give you the explanation of the dutch names. I hadn't time for it last night.
Edit: edited it, added Terziele too. Joost would you mind checking it? Any adaptions or remarks would be welcome.
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septentrion - Feb 12, 2004 5:17 am (#92 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't know how Hagrid presents thestrals in his lesson because I hadn't bought the french version of OoTP (I'm waiting for the "pocket" version next year, the current version is sold around 28 euros = 35 dollars, too expensive when you already have the american version). I found the translation on french speaking websites but you give me the idea to check, I'll tell you later.
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prof sprout - Feb 12, 2004 3:03 pm (#93 of 334)
Edited by Feb 12, 2004 2:05 pm
Tomoe, Nihonjin desu ka? Sukoshi nihongo o hanashimasu. Watashi wa nihon e ikimashita.
Sorry I noticed that Tomoe spoke Japanese. I went to Japan in August, and got excited that she might be from Japan.
I have 1-4 in Spanish along with 1-5 in English. I have to keep an eye out for the 5th in Spanish. I don't know what word they use for thestrals but if they use Sombra similiar to the word they used in French that means shadow.
Does anyone know if the Fantastic Beast and Quidditch through the ages is translated in other languages?
edit: I just realized that Mare had mentioned the dutch version of FB
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Dr Filibuster - Feb 12, 2004 4:17 pm (#94 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
How do the non-English books reflect Hagrid's way of speaking?
His words are spelt phonetically (as they are heard) in English. The only other times this seems to happen are when Ron talks with hs mouth full, Neville hurts his nose, and Mundungus is drunk.
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Tomoé - Feb 12, 2004 7:59 pm (#95 of 334)
Back in business
Gomennasai prof sprout, Nihonjin de nai, Canadajin desu. Watashi wa nihon e ikimasendeshita.
Sorry, prof spout, I'm not Japanese, I'm Canadian. I never went to Japan.
Fantastic Beast and Quidditch through the ages are available in Japanese if you want to try them, you can even buy them at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Joost! - Feb 13, 2004 1:12 am (#96 of 334)
Second line of information
Sue, in the Dutch translation Hagrid speaks a with regional accent. His words are spelled phonetically too. I don't know what dialect it's supposed to be, though.
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septentrion - Feb 13, 2004 3:00 am (#97 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
In French, Hagrid just speaks like anyone else, with no particular accent.
Dr Filibuster - Feb 13, 2004 12:24 pm (#98 of 334)[/b]
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Interesting, thank you.
I suppose it depends on each interpreter, or a decision made by each publisher.
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septentrion - Feb 14, 2004 7:54 am (#99 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I've checked French OoTP and when Hagrid makes his lessons about thestrals, he just presents them as "sombrals" without adding something like "also known as thestralis".
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VeronikaG - Feb 14, 2004 3:27 pm (#100 of 334)
Does Seamus Finnigan speak a funny accent in English, because he does in Norwegian. So does Hagrid, by the way. They both speak existing Norwegian accents. Hagrid has the accent of the city of Drammen, Seamus speaks an eastern accent.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Second line of information
I just noticed most first names have not been translated in Dutch. I can only think of Hermione who is called Hermelien (I really don't like this name) and Justin Finch-Fletchley who is called Joost (I really do like this name ) Flets-Friemel. But I'll have to do better research to be sure about other characters.
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VeronikaG - Dec 12, 2003 5:48 am (#52 of 334)
We all bet you do. The Norwegian translator must have thought his English name was boring, because he named him Julius Finkenfjær. And I can assure you, that is not an ordinary Norwegian name. Fink is a little bird, very colorful, fjær means feathers. He was named this in the first book, when all we knew was that he was sorted into Hufflepuff, so it has nothing to do with his personality.
Colin Creevey, on the other hand, has been given a more interesting name: Frodrik Fromm. Frodrik is a (hopefully) not existing form of Fredrik, which is a common boys name. "From" is a bit hard to explain, but it usually describes someone very religious, or someone who never does anything wrong (and could be disliked for that). I'm not sure what "Creevey" means, but does it have anything to do with the word "creed", that has no exact Norwegian translation, but which I understand has something to do with faith?
Oh, and I like the name for Millicent Bullstrode, Milly Bylling. "Bylle" means boil. Not what you do to an egg, but what Neville gets after his first potions-accident. I guess this is meant to show how discusting Slytherins can be.
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Joost! - Dec 12, 2003 7:19 am (#53 of 334)
Second line of information
I think "From" means pious, it resebles the Dutch word "vroom" which means pious.
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Psyche - Dec 12, 2003 2:57 pm (#54 of 334)
Well, the Creevey brothers are very devoted to Harry, maybe the translator wanted to emphasise that?
My greatest translation irritation is Dumbledore's name in Dutch, it's changed to Perkamentus ("perkament" is parchment in Dutch). Although I can understand it's not changed to "hommel" (the Dutch word for bumblebee), why parchment? Sorry if this has been brought up before, but this is one of the few things that annoy me about the Dutch translation. I'm folliwing a translation course at the moment and I know how hard it can be.
Psyche
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septentrion - Dec 14, 2003 9:31 am (#55 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
In French, only a few names have been translated :
-Snape into Rogue = offensive, arrogant
-Bagman into Verpey = phonetically, it is V.R.P., ie travelling salesman
-Umbridge into Ombrage = shade, or used in expressions like "porter ombrage à quelqu'un" which means "to offend sb"
-Tom Marvolo Riddle into Tom Elvis Jedusor = the translator needed the letters to make "je suis lord Voldemort" (I am lord Voldemort). Plus he played on words with "jedusor", which can be read like "jeux du sort", ie "fate games" or "spell games".
-Lonbottom into Londubat = phonetically means longbottom
-Malfoy have become "Malefoy", which is more logical in french for "Foy" (faith) is a feminine word and the "e" is the mark for the feminine
Some places have been translated too :
-Diagon Alley into chemin de traverse = shortcut
-Hogwarts into poudlard = pou means louse, and lard means bacon
-Hogsmeade into pré-au-lard = pré means mead
-hogshead into tête de sanglier = tête means head and sanglier means boar
-the burrow = le terrier (simple translation)
-grimmauld place into square grimmaurd, which is pronounced "gris mort", ie "grey dead".
I don't remember if others names have been translated, but in french like in Norvegian, the translators aren't used to translate the names. After all, everybody knows the story takes place in England and it would be too strange if the characters had non english names.
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VeronikaG - Dec 15, 2003 4:46 am (#56 of 334)
Well, some of them have gotten very Norwegian names, that seem a bit strange, as the setting is still England. I guess they had to do it so the youngest readers would pick up on the descriptive character of names, but the English wouldn't know how to pronounce some of these names. Luna Lovegood has, for example, become "Line Loveland", pronounced "Lee-neh Lo-veh-land". Her surname is probably misspelled a bit, to keep the "Love" part of it. In correct spelling it should be "Låveland" - "barn land". The Norwegian letter "å" is pronounced like the "o" in "love", and the "a" in "hall".
And what more, we do have a character named "Luna". They have actually translated Mooney to Luna! Have anyone else heard about a characters interchanging names during translation?
And to Joost, who thought "from" meant pious; Yes, I think it could mean that. In Norway we have a word for someone strongly religious, who believes that God will be angry with him if he's too happy. Such a person is called a "pietist", from the Latin word for feet. They were supposed to look at their feet when they walked, not raise their heads, as that would be too proud. Does a pious person behave something like this?
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Madame Librarian - Dec 15, 2003 5:47 am (#57 of 334)
Veronika, yes, "fromm" in German means pious; also "frum" in Yiddish (which is closely related to German) means pious. I love your explanation about piety meaning looking down at your feet so as not to appear too happy. My mother always yelled at me to watch where I was going and not look down, which was a habit of mine. Believe me, I was not being pious; I simply loved shoes and watched mine (especially if new-ish) and everyone else's. Weird, eh.
Ciao. Barb
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VeronikaG - Jan 12, 2004 3:41 am (#58 of 334)
I have found a possible explanation about the Norwegian name of Mac Nair being translated to Mac Knife, which isn't Norwegian. I saw a film recently, where a student says he has a tape of his head master singing "Mac the Knife" in his underwear. So is that a famous American song that I for some reason haven't heard of?
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Madame Librarian - Jan 12, 2004 9:59 am (#59 of 334)
VeronikaG, it is not American. It is one of the songs written by Kurt Weill for Bertol Brecht's "Threepenny Opera." The opera, first performed in New York in the mid-1950s, I think (don't hold me to that) was a big success and this song was recorded by many artists as a stand-alone number. In the 60s, heart throb Bobby Darin recorded it and it had a revival among teenyboppers.
Here are the lyrics:
lyrics
Keep in mind that the Brecht play was originally written in German and so were the lyrics to all the songs. Weill, though, was comfortable in the English language as he was a successful Hollywood screenwriter in the 30s and 40s. I noted that the library record shows someone else as the lyric translator, but that could be because both Weill and Brecht died in 1950, and the work itself was not published in any language until 1955. In any event, the odd (very odd) song lyrics cannot be totally understood out of the play's context, so it was a bit surprising that it had such stand-alone success. The music is way coooool (slow dance!).
I know, way too much info.
Ciao. Barb
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VeronikaG - Jan 13, 2004 4:40 am (#60 of 334)
Thank you for clearing that up, Barb. I wondered a bit if this song was somewhat "dirty" (the teen film with the singing head master was a bit like American Pie), and I didn't like the Idea that the clever Norwegian translator had used a name from a "dirty" song in a book read by children. It was kind of bizarre, though (the song).
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nmnjr - Feb 2, 2004 7:57 pm (#61 of 334)
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
Didn't know where else to put this, but there is a translation of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone into Latin. My sister (a first-year Latin student at college) got it for Christmas. It's pretty neat.
You can look through some of the pages on amazon.com by searching for "Harrius Potter."
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Hem Hem - Feb 2, 2004 8:11 pm (#62 of 334)
It's a very fun read, I can tell you that. And you can buy it at some Barnes and Nobles...I saw it there in the foreign childrens' books once and bought it before even looking at the price tag.
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Mare - Feb 3, 2004 4:22 am (#63 of 334)
A latin version? How cool! But since I already have problems with my latin version of "Jip en Janneke" (Jippus et Janneka) which is a parents-need-to-read-this-to-their-children-because-they-may-not-be-able-to-do-it-themselves-book I don't think I would be able to read it. (I chose greek, but I can't translate that anymore too)
Erm.. what was the point of this post again? O yes, nmnjr, you should post this on the recommended reading thread, there might be a few forum members interested in buying this book! :silygrin:
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VeronikaG - Feb 3, 2004 5:56 am (#64 of 334)
Are you reading in Latin? Seriously? Isn't that the most difficult language in the world to learn?
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nmnjr - Feb 3, 2004 5:34 pm (#65 of 334)
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
Thanks, Mare. I'll do that.
Jazhara Ravenclaw - Feb 3, 2004 6:12 pm (#66 of 334)[/b]
Well, alot of words in English came from Latin or Greek origins and word parts, right? You pick up a lot of them from science classes hehe. Does anyone know if HP 5 has been released in pretty much every country that has the first 4 yet?
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Devika - Feb 4, 2004 6:54 am (#67 of 334)
Jazhara, I don't think I understood what exactly you meant by your last sentence. Can you explain?... Sorry for being so thick!
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Anna L. Black - Feb 4, 2004 9:35 am (#68 of 334)
This is off the current topic, but as we're speaking about translations, I thought that I should add it (I hope I'm not repeating something from another thread, I read the Part 1 of this thread, but couldn't find part 2...)
As far as I can see, many translations also include a lot of name-translations. However, in the Hebrew version of the books, almost all of the names are the same as in the original book - the names of the students, of the proffesors, of the houses, of most of the places (e.g. Diagon Alley is 'Simtat Diagon', Simta = Alley)....
There are a few names that were translated (Mainly names of people who wrote Harry's school books - really minor characters, in short...), and also a few of the magical creatures (e.g. Blast ended screwts. In the 5th book, both 'thestrals' and another name is used, which can be a bit confusing, but that's not a big deal...) 'Dementor' was also translated, into 'soharsan' - where 'soher' is a prison-guard, and 'harsan' is 'destructive' - it's one of the translations that I really liked.
Some of the quidditch terms were translated - Chaser, Beater and Seeker, obviously, and also Bludger. The other terms - Quidditch, Snitch, Quaffle - remained the same.
Tom Marvolo Riddle became Tom Vandrolo Riddle, in order to fit the letters of "I am Lord Voldemort" in Hebrew. The Mirror of Erised became The Mirror of yanfata - the last letters of the words "my face" (It actually should be "your face", but I can't remember the exact writing, and I don't have the books to check out.... Never mind.) I also don't remember what they did to the riddle of the sphynx.
Also, obviously, the names of the subjects were translated, which was fine until the fifth book came out - and then, 'occlumency' became something completely twisted, that doesn't sound good.
Personally, I think that keeping the original names is much better than translating them - I've read bits of the first book in Russian, and the translation is simply horrible. Especially the name-translations. (Russian speakers - this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] includes many of the stupid translations in the books - and it's really funny to read the comments about them)
I've read (and have) all of the books in English, and read the Hebrew versions only once - it's good, but the original is much much better. What's interesting, though, is that the translators cannot contact JKR about hidden meanings - I've heard it personally (via the internet, but still personally) from the Israeli translator. That means that we shouldn't count so much on meanings of differences in the translations - every translator is more or less free to do whatever he likes....
That were my thoughts about translations... I never intended it too be that long *blushing*
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - Feb 4, 2004 3:13 pm (#69 of 334)
Yeah, just to clarify, looking back- I knew what I was talking about hehe.. I was just wondering if all the countries that have the first 4 books have gotten the 5th one yet (after seeing the release for the Spanish #5 is in feb). The 5th book probably took more time to translate anyway, as it's the longest, even though a lot of the terms and names ahve already been changed.
I have a question for those people that read it in other languages, though. Is it confusing to have some terms translated and others kept the same?
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Joost! - Feb 6, 2004 3:29 am (#70 of 334)
Second line of information
I didn't think it was confusing, I read the first fourbooks only in Dutch and every name and term has been translated. What was confusing was when I found the Lexicon and I had to figure out the English equivalents of the names I knew in Dutch. It took me a while but now both versions are interchangable to me, it doesn't really matter much anymore.
BTW, the Dutch translation of OoP was released in November, but I could wait that long so I bought the English version when it came out in June.
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septentrion - Feb 6, 2004 12:41 pm (#71 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think like Joost except that it was in French for me. In fact I only realized that some names had been translated when I read the English version but now I'm so much accustomed to the English version that I have to think of what or who it is when I hear the French names!
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Czarina - Feb 6, 2004 3:04 pm (#72 of 334)
Which names were translated into French?
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scully jones - Feb 6, 2004 6:37 pm (#73 of 334)
yeah right
Yeah, I'd like to know what all the names are changed to. There must be a site somewhere with all of the differences.
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Tomoé - Feb 6, 2004 7:45 pm (#74 of 334)
Back in business
Mad Eye Moody -> Maugrey Fol Oeil (I can explain why they change Moody to Maugrey)
Dolores Umbridge -> Dolores Ombrage (sound almost the same, but means shade)
Severus Snape -> Severus Rogues (my 10 years old cousin was quite indignant of that meaningless change ^_^)
Malfoy -> Malefoy (which is a correction to make the name 100% Old French)
Neville Longbottom -> Neville Longdubas (sp?)
And many others that I don't remember, but must of the problems or about all those tiny details that have been adapted.
Dementor -> Épouvantard (sp?)
Diagon Alley -> Rue de la Traverse
Grim -> Sinistros
OWL -> BUSE
Fang -> Crocdure
The kind of thing that you sometimes forget to translated and that make the others ask you : "What are you talking about?"
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scully jones - Feb 6, 2004 8:42 pm (#75 of 334)
yeah right
Cool.........
How about other languages? There are a lot of forum members on here who have alternate versions.
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septentrion - Feb 7, 2004 12:32 pm (#76 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Tomoe, you've made a little mistake : épouvantard is boggart and dementor is détraqueur. You must have the same problem than me : too much accustomed to the english version
I've posted some translations before , just click on the link post#55
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Detail Seeker - Feb 7, 2004 1:45 pm (#77 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
At the start of this thread, I asked for Translations of the names of all the creatures in Fabulous Beasts in different languages but never got any answers to that. Maybe, this is the time to renew this question.
I try to get an Excel-table with all the translations and make this postable afterwards. So I am thankful for Input !
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Tomoé - Feb 7, 2004 4:36 pm (#78 of 334)
Back in business
Er ... right septentrion, a short-cut in my brain, really, I just don't know what happen. o.O
I read your demand last time, Detail Seeker, but I own a English copy of FB. I should take a look in the library nearby, maybe I'll find a French one.
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Hem Hem - Feb 8, 2004 12:10 am (#79 of 334)
Mamash Me'anyen, Anna! I speak Hebrew, but have never more than glanced at the Hebrew versions. Your analysis was enlightening!
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VeronikaG - Feb 8, 2004 6:04 am (#80 of 334)
Hi Detail Seeker. Here are some Norwegian monsters for you.
Boggart = Hambuse (Ham = something you wear, take on. Buse = boogie)
Dementor = Desperant
Basilisk = ditto
Hippogriff = ditto
Dragon = Drage
Blast Ended Screwts = Sprengstjerta Skrutter (Sprenge = blow up, stjert = tail or something)
Blibbering Humdinger = Jatrende Prima
Banshee = Brøleånd/Ule (Ule = to howl)
Troll = Troll (Hey, we invented them)
Hag = Gygre (And Hagrid = Gygrid)
Aragog = Argarapp
Mosag = ditto
Kneasel = Katapard (Cat = Katt)
Manticore = Mantikora
Re'em = Reym
Red Cap = Rødhette (Red Hood. Useless information; we call Little Red Riding Hood "Rødhette")
Runespoore = Smygspore (Smyge = slither. Guess what house we call Smygard)
Werewolf = Varulv
Lethifold = ditto
Grindylow = Snaredraug
Hinkypunk = Lyktemann (Lamp Man)
Mooncalf = Månenaut
Kappa = Strypenøkk (Strype = to strangle)
Kelpie = Nøkk
Knarl = Trassel
If I left out some important ones, you can check this link, It's indexed by English names.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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septentrion - Feb 8, 2004 1:57 pm (#81 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
detail seeker, I'll try to help (first English, second French): acromantula = ditto / ashwinder = serpencendre / augurey = ditto / basilisk = basilic / billywig = ditto / bowtruckle = botruc / bundimun = bandimon / centaur = centaure / chimaera = chimère / chizpurfle = ciseburine / clabbert = ditto / crup = croup / demiguise = ditto / diricawl = dirico / doxy = ditto / dragon = ditto / antipodean opaleye = opaloeil des antipodes / chinese fireball = boutefeu chinois / common welsh green = vert gallois commun / hebridean black = noir des Hébrides / hungarian horntail = magyar à pointes / norwegian ridgeback = norvégien à crête / peruvian vipertooth = dent-de-vipère du Pérou / romanian longhorn = cornelongue roumain / swedish short-snout = suédois à museau court / ukrainian ironbelly = pansedefer ukrainien / dugbog = fangieux / erkling = ditto / erumpent = eruptif / fairy = fée / fire crab = crabe de feu / flobberworm = veracrasse / fwooper = focifère / ghoul = goule / glumbumble = grinchebourdon / gnome = dotto / graphorn = grapcorne / griffin = griffon / grindylow = strangulot / Hippocampus = hippocampe / hipogriff = hipogriffe / horklump = horglup / imp = diablotin / jarvey = chartier / jobberknoll = jobarbille / kappa = ditto / kelpie = kelpy / knarl = noueux / kneazle = fléreur / Leprechaun = farfadet / lethifold = moremplis / lobalug = verlieu / mackled malaclaw = malagrif tacheté / manticore = ditto / merpeople = êtres de l'eau / moke = ditto / mooncalf = veaudelune / murtlap = murlap / niffler = niffleur / nogtail = licheur / nundu = ditto / occamy = ditto / phoenix = phénix / pixie = lutin / plimpy = boullu / pogrebin = povrebine / porlock = ditto / puffskein = boursouf / Quintaped = ditto / ramora = rémora / red cap = chaporouge / re'em = ditto / runespoor = ditto / salamender = salamandre / sea serpent = serpent de mer / shrake = sharak / snidget = vivet / sphinx = ditto / streeler = musard / tebo = ditto / troll = ditto / unicorn = licorne / werewolf = loup-garou / winged horse = cheval ailé (abraxan = ditto, aethonan = ethonan, granian = gronian, thestral = thestral in FB and sombral in OoTP) / yeti = yéti
Oh, I didn't intend to check all the book but yet I've done it. Please detail seeker, when you've taken the information you need, tell me so that I can delete this post : I'm afraid it would be too boring for most readers. Hope I have helped !
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Detail Seeker - Feb 8, 2004 1:59 pm (#82 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Thank you, Veronika and Septentrion ! Two more rows filled with information. Some rather nice translations have, I think been found (I liked esp. Lyktemann..) And I do not think, this will bore most readers, but let´s hear, if anybody complains.
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Joost! - Feb 9, 2004 5:20 am (#83 of 334)
Second line of information
Don't delete your post, Sep. If it's boring to anyone they don't have to read it.
"thestral = thestral in FB and sombral in OoTP"
This is interesting, did the two books have different translators?
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septentrion - Feb 10, 2004 12:40 pm (#84 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
thank you joost and detail seeker for your encouragement ! I'll listen to you and won't delete my post.
As for your question about thestral/sombral in french, I don't know, I'll search it and tell you because the translator's name isn't printed in french versions of FB and QA. (btw, sombral would be something like "darkal").
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Neville Longbottom - Feb 10, 2004 4:09 pm (#85 of 334)
On this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is listed how the different names and terms are translated into the other languages. This sign: * means, that the word is the same as in the English original. Howeever, it only includes the words from book 1-4, not the new characters and terms from book 5.
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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2004 7:57 pm (#86 of 334)
Back in business
By the way, Detail Seeker, phoenix in Japanese is "fushichou", literally immortal bird.
Jazhara Ravenclaw, the Japanese version of Order of the phoenix is not release yet, but we know it will be titled "Harii Pottaa to fushichou no Kishidan".
Thanks for the link Neville, I didn't remember Squib to be called Cracmol in French.
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septentrion - Feb 11, 2004 1:06 pm (#87 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Joost, I have the answer (the editor answered very quickly to my mail) : Jean-François Ménard has translated all JKR's books, the HP serie and FB and QA. But why he has translated thestrals in OotP and not in FB, I don't know. I have my own idea : in FB, thestrals aren't important but in OotP they are, and the translation (sombral) gives an idea about how they look (sombral = "darkal").
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Mare - Feb 11, 2004 4:36 pm (#88 of 334)
Edited Feb 12, 2004 4:13 am
For Immo, dutch beastnames;
Acromantula - Acromantula
Ashwinder - Aswinder
Augurey - Augurei
Basilisk - Basilisk
Billywig - Billywig
Bowtruckle - Boomtrul : Boom = tree
Bundimun - Bundimun
Centaur - Centaur
Chimaera - Chimaera
Chizpurfle - Kontamineet : This is the dutch version of the Glumbumble joke. Kont meaning bum. You also have the wordplay on contamination
Clabbert - Clabbert
Crup - Crup
Demiguise - Demiguise
Diricrawl - Dirikal
Doxy - Doxy
Dragon - Draak
Antipodean Opaleye - Antipodische Opaaloog
Chinese Fireball - Chinese Zenger : Zengen means to scorch or to singe
Common Welsh Green - Gewone Groene Huisdraak : Common Green Housedragon...
Hebridean Black - Hebridische Zwartkop : Zwartkop means blackhead
Hungarian Horntail - Hongaarse Hoornstaart
Norwegian Ridgeback - Noorse Bultrug : Bultrug is also the name for the humpback whale
Peruvian Vipertooth - Peruaanse Addertand
Romanian Longhorn - Roemeense Langhoorn
Swedish Short-Snout - Zweedse Stompsnuit : Stompsnuit meaning stumpsnout
Ukrainian Ironbelly - Oekraiense Ijzerbuik
Dugbog - Doolzomp : dolen is to roame or to wander and zomp means swamp
Erkling - Erkling
Erumpent - Erumpent
Fairy - Fee
Fire Crab - Vuurkrab
Flobberworm - Flubberwurm
Fwooper - Fwoeper
Ghoul - Grauwel : grauw meaning gloomy/gray and/or growl
Glumbumble - Kommerhommel : kommer means sorrow and a hommel is a bumblebee
Gnome - Kabouter
Graphorn - Graphorn
Griffin - Griffioen
Grindylow - Wierling : wier is seaweed
Hippocampus - Hippocampus
Hippogriff - Hippogrief
Horklump - Horklump
Imp - Alf : I have no idea why this is translated
Jarvey - Jarvey
Jobberknoll - Juttemus : This one I like, a mus is a sparrow. But the word juttemis is used when you want to make clear that things are never going to happen. For example: "When are pigs going to fly?" "With St. Juttemis"
Kappa - Kappa
Kelpie - Kelpie
Knarl - Knarl
Kneazle - Kwistel : sounds like kwispel: to wag.
Leprechaun - Ierse Kabouter : Irish gnome
Lethifold - Stik-de-Moord : choke-the-murder. If I remember correctly this is/was used as a swearword.
Lobalug - Lobbelog : a log is something heavy/cumbersome.
Mackled Malaclaw - Lagerwalkrab : lower shore crab, from the expression "aan lager wal raken" = come down in the world/get into low water.
Manticore - Mantichore
Merpeople - Meermensen
Moke - Mook
Mooncalf - Maankalf
Murtlap - Murtlap
Niffler - Delfstoffer : mineraler
Nogtail - Nogtands : tand is tooth
Nundu - Noendoe
Occamy - Occamy
Phoenix - Feniks
Pixie - Keltisch Aardmannetje : Celtic gnome
Plimpy - Plimpy
Pogrebin - Pogrebin
Porlock - Porlock
Puffskein - Pulkerik : pulken means to pick, like in "pick your nose" the extension -erik implicates this beast is doing just that, picking something.
Quintaped - Quintaped
Ramora - Ramora
Red Cap - Roodkopje : redhead
Re'em - Re'em
Runespoor - Runespoor
Salamander - Salamander
Sea Serpent - Zeeslang : Sea snake
Shrake - Scheldvis : Another good one. A Schelvis is a haddock, but Schelden means to scold.
Snidget - Smiecht : A sneaky person. The word for snidge is snaai, which would come from snaaien, to fastly grab something (preferably from in front of somebody elses nose)
Sphinx - Sfinx
Streeler - Streeler
Tebo - Tebo
Troll - Trol
Unicorn - Eenhoorn : Onehorn, normal mythical name for the horned horse
Werewolf - Weerwolf
Winged Horse - Vliegend Paard : Flying horse
Abraxan - Abraxas
Aethonan - AethoniËr
Granian - Granische Grijze : Grijze means the gray
Thestral - Thestralis (FB&OoP) Terzieler (OoP) : a "ziel" is a soul. Ter ziele gaan, (going to the souls) would be to die.
Yeti - Yeti
Pfffffff.
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Detail Seeker - Feb 12, 2004 12:39 am (#89 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Thanks, Steffie !
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Joost! - Feb 12, 2004 2:38 am (#90 of 334)
Second line of information
Some of those are a quite good, I should get a copy of the Dutch version of FB.
By the way, a Thestral is also called a "Terzieler" in the Dutch OoP. I'm not really sure why it has two names, but in OoP Hagrid says something like: "Very good, it's a Terzieler, also known as Thestralis." (Not an exact translation)
So both names are used in the same book. I had completely forgotten this, but I did an online search about it. Maybe it's the same in the French version..
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Mare - Feb 12, 2004 4:05 am (#91 of 334)
Thanks Joost, I only had the dutch copy of FB with me and not the dutch version of OoP.
I think the translator solved that problem very nicely. As you can see a lot of names in the list are the same.From the ones he translated the most have a "more dutch" name because they were used in the books. With thestrals he obviously, like the french translator, wanted to give a name with more meaning to his non-english readers. I think the "also known as" concept was a nice way of solving the problem that he hadn't translated that name in FB.
Bye the way, I might go back and edit that list to give you the explanation of the dutch names. I hadn't time for it last night.
Edit: edited it, added Terziele too. Joost would you mind checking it? Any adaptions or remarks would be welcome.
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septentrion - Feb 12, 2004 5:17 am (#92 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't know how Hagrid presents thestrals in his lesson because I hadn't bought the french version of OoTP (I'm waiting for the "pocket" version next year, the current version is sold around 28 euros = 35 dollars, too expensive when you already have the american version). I found the translation on french speaking websites but you give me the idea to check, I'll tell you later.
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prof sprout - Feb 12, 2004 3:03 pm (#93 of 334)
Edited by Feb 12, 2004 2:05 pm
Tomoe, Nihonjin desu ka? Sukoshi nihongo o hanashimasu. Watashi wa nihon e ikimashita.
Sorry I noticed that Tomoe spoke Japanese. I went to Japan in August, and got excited that she might be from Japan.
I have 1-4 in Spanish along with 1-5 in English. I have to keep an eye out for the 5th in Spanish. I don't know what word they use for thestrals but if they use Sombra similiar to the word they used in French that means shadow.
Does anyone know if the Fantastic Beast and Quidditch through the ages is translated in other languages?
edit: I just realized that Mare had mentioned the dutch version of FB
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Dr Filibuster - Feb 12, 2004 4:17 pm (#94 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
How do the non-English books reflect Hagrid's way of speaking?
His words are spelt phonetically (as they are heard) in English. The only other times this seems to happen are when Ron talks with hs mouth full, Neville hurts his nose, and Mundungus is drunk.
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Tomoé - Feb 12, 2004 7:59 pm (#95 of 334)
Back in business
Gomennasai prof sprout, Nihonjin de nai, Canadajin desu. Watashi wa nihon e ikimasendeshita.
Sorry, prof spout, I'm not Japanese, I'm Canadian. I never went to Japan.
Fantastic Beast and Quidditch through the ages are available in Japanese if you want to try them, you can even buy them at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Joost! - Feb 13, 2004 1:12 am (#96 of 334)
Second line of information
Sue, in the Dutch translation Hagrid speaks a with regional accent. His words are spelled phonetically too. I don't know what dialect it's supposed to be, though.
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septentrion - Feb 13, 2004 3:00 am (#97 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
In French, Hagrid just speaks like anyone else, with no particular accent.
Dr Filibuster - Feb 13, 2004 12:24 pm (#98 of 334)[/b]
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Interesting, thank you.
I suppose it depends on each interpreter, or a decision made by each publisher.
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septentrion - Feb 14, 2004 7:54 am (#99 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I've checked French OoTP and when Hagrid makes his lessons about thestrals, he just presents them as "sombrals" without adding something like "also known as thestralis".
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VeronikaG - Feb 14, 2004 3:27 pm (#100 of 334)
Does Seamus Finnigan speak a funny accent in English, because he does in Norwegian. So does Hagrid, by the way. They both speak existing Norwegian accents. Hagrid has the accent of the city of Drammen, Seamus speaks an eastern accent.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Location : France
Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 101 to 150)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:53 am
Detail Seeker - Feb 15, 2004 9:37 am (#101 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
In the german version, Hagrid is not shown speaking a pronounced local accent, though a northern german background is hinted. In GoF, Cpt "Mad Eye Moody", he greets the students with "Moin", which is typical for "Niederdeutsch" or Frisian speaking areas and can be tranlated as "Good..." (Our dutch friends here should recognise this). Furthermore he is shown to drop or amalgamate some syllables for convenience ( "ha'm" instead of "haben" , "in'ner instead of "in der"). These are not exclusively typical to northern german accents.
In the niederdeutsch version, Hagrid´s way of speaking shows no difference, just the choice of words is more "slang"-like as that of other characters.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 15, 2004 12:12 pm (#102 of 334)
I know that the Hebrew translator had a problem with Hagrid's way of speech, as well as with the House Elves'. In one of the cases (I don't remember which one) the editors sort of decided for her how to translate it...
Anyway, in the Hebrew version, Hagrid speaks in a strange way - it's not slang, and he doesn't drop syllables, but he inserts unnecessary words and it sounds as if he's just uneducated or something like that... Hard to explain. The House Elves speak with obvious grammatic mistakes, and mostly in third-person.
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Karla Labanda - Feb 17, 2004 11:54 am (#103 of 334)
Prof. Sprout:
Do you speak Japanese?, me too, well only a little. I will travel to Japan on October,
The names of Creatures and Characters are not change in Spanish version, but I will look it on Saturday when I buy it.
Fantastic Beast and Where find them are available in Spanish too.
Bye
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prof sprout - Feb 17, 2004 12:53 pm (#104 of 334)
Edited by Feb 17, 2004 11:55 am
Karla,
I speak some Japanese, I forgot a lot of it though. I responded to your "tell about yourself" I actually spoke more Spanish in Japan than I did English, since my translator spoke fluent Portuguese and was more comfortable speaking Spanish.
Yo hablo espanol tambien. Yo tuve 8 anos de espanol en escuela.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 22, 2004 9:48 pm (#105 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Karla, Welcome! I too am a native Spanish speaker and am happy to find someone with whom to discuss the books in Spanish (that's over and above all the English lanuguage discussion). I have been in the USA a long time and don't have much opportunity for Spanish speaking and reading. I have used the HP books to practice reading my native language as it is one of the few books I have been able to read in Spanish. ¿Qual vercion de los libros tiene? the Spanish or South American version? We have the Spanish-European version. I have not been able to track the South American version. I also heard somewhere that there is a Mexican version but I haven't seen anything else about that one. Welcome, Maritza
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Karla Labanda - Feb 25, 2004 6:53 am (#106 of 334)
Prof. Sprout and Maritza.
I am very happy to found people who speak Spanish. If you want we can practice Spanish. I love the idea.
Maritza I have only the Spanish - European version, sometimes I do not understand very well the words, but for the fith book Ecuador will have a version to Latin América
I was thinking and perharps I don't know if is a good idea, we can make a list about changes or perhaps names of some characters or creatures in the different language versions of the book. For example in Spanish books you-know-who name was Tom Marvolo Riddle. in spanish the name was Tom Sorvolo Ryddle.
Let me know your opinion
Thank your for your welcome
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viapalfuriana - Mar 4, 2004 2:54 am (#107 of 334)
I have only read the books in English, but I have a friend who has read them in Catalan and we have been commenting on the translations. Swedish Short-Snout (Sweden) in Catalan morrominso marroquí morro=snout minso=little marroquí=from morocco obviously, Sweden is not morocco, but the translator preferred to keep the same music of letters (s s s, m m m). Pete Pettigrew is Ben Babau (Very stupid)
Prof Sprout= Professora Col-i-flor (coliflower) whomping willow= Pi Cabaralla (fighting pine). In fact a picabaralla is a fight Blast-Ended Skrewt= Uix-ecs cul de tro (uix or ecs are used when you see something really disgusting), while cul is the bottom and tro is thunder
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viapalfuriana - Mar 4, 2004 3:52 am (#108 of 334)
Tom Riddle in Catalan= Tod Rodlel Morvosc (Sóc Lord Voldemort) Sóc= I am In Spanish Tom Sorvolo Ryddle (Soy L V)
Diagon Alley= Ronda d'Allà (Road out there more or less) Colin Creevey= Pau Parra (Pau=Paul, though it also means Peace, but it has no importance here) Parra=it's a plant). Paparra= a very annoying person.
There was one translator for the 1st book in Spanish (Alicia Dellepiane), then a couple (Adolfo Muñoz and Nieves Martín) for books 2, 3 and 4 and another one (Gemma Rovira) for the 5th. The translators in books 2-4 complained because in book 1 the translator did not translate any name, so they have to keep the no-translated names for next books and they had to be careful not to start translating all the names for new characters, since it would sound very strange. You know, all of a sudden, new characters with Spanish names. They had to do it gradually. But, as we all say, all names have a meaning or tell something about the characters and it is good that readers in foreign languages get this meaning. I think the Catalan translator (Laura Escorihuela) did a very good job (I have not read the books, but my friend keeps me updated). They have changed the translator for the 5th book (Xavier Pàmies) and there has been a very obvious change. He uses some words that seem incorrect, Spanish words rather than Catalan. Warner Bross, owner of the exploitation rights of the characters, made the translators sign a document giving them the copyright of the names they had translated. Laura Escorihuela refused to sign it and she thinks it might have influenced on the fact that she is not translating the 5th book. Now they can only translate the names that Warner authorizes in a list.
You can read it (in Spanish) in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] See you
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prof sprout - Mar 28, 2004 3:09 pm (#109 of 334)
Partially because I want to keep this thread alive, and because I'm curious. How did the Spanish translators do for OotP? I haven't had a chance to buy it yet.
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Mrs. Sirius - Apr 9, 2004 10:32 pm (#110 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I just started "La Orden del Fénix" in Spanish. It is 893 pages long.
I am curious, I ordered through Amazon. My edition is from Spain. Karla or anyone else who has it in Spanish, is their an American Spanish version? I thought I read somewhere that there is an edition from Mexico.
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 2:56 pm (#111 of 334)
Anybody want to know anything about the Swedish translation ? "Order of the Phoenix" has - finally - being published in Swedish, so I can join this Forum again, after nearly 10 months of "exile"...! I didn't buy the English book, because I collect the "Adult Pocket Edition", and that one isn't available yet (not in Sweden, at least). So I haven't read "Order of the Phoenix" in English yet...
Swedish is, off course, the most beautiful language in the world, but it HAS it's drawbacks; for instance, we have no word for "grandmother". (Nor for "grandfather", "grandparents", "grandson" or "granddaughter" - although we DO have a word for "grandchild".) The word "grandmother" must be translated with either "farmor" (= "fathermother") or "mormor" (= "mothermother"), and I think there is a tendency to choose "mothermother" when the translator don't know what it is - just as it's a tendency to translate "grandfather" with "fatherfather". Well, in the first book, there was no clue whether Neville's grandmother was his father's or his mother's mother, so the Swedish translator chose "mothermother". Not until she read the fifth book she understood that it should have been "fathermother" all the time...
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 5:42 pm (#112 of 334)
Was it changed?
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 18, 2004 4:30 am (#113 of 334)
Yes, it was changed. It had to be; it is said clearly in the book that Neville's father is Grandma's son.
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septentrion - Apr 18, 2004 6:21 am (#114 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
How does it come that these words doesn't exist in Swedish ? (BTW I like those swedish writers who are Henning Mankell and Ake Edwardson, but I read them in French !)
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 18, 2004 8:35 am (#115 of 334)
I don't know; you have to talk to an expert of the Swedish language. I think there have been words meaning "grandfather" and "grandmother" in our language once, but they for some reason became unmodern and disappeared... Languages change, you know.
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scully jones - Apr 18, 2004 8:43 am (#116 of 334)
yeah right
In chinese, there's a different name for every single member of the family. Your father's mother and mother's mother also have their own separate names. I only know la mou (don't hate me if it's spelled wrong, I've only ever heard it said out loud) for mother's mother.
The words for aunts on your mothers side are da(big) yi (again, don't quote me on that), for oldest aunt, shou(small) yi for youngest aunt. If there are more in between, it's(2) ar yi, (3)san yi, (4)sz yi (which is unlucky to be, because sz also means dead).
I wonder how the translators for the chinese version had Neville's Grandmother categorized?
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VeronikaG - Apr 18, 2004 10:10 am (#117 of 334)
Order of the Phoenix hasn't been translated to Swedish until now? It was available in Norwegian in October last year. Strange.
In Norwegian we have two different terms for grandparents. One is exactly like Swedish, mothermother, and so. The other version is more like the English. We say they are "best parents".
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 19, 2004 8:59 am (#118 of 334)
The Swedish translation of "Order of the Phoenix" was published the 3rd of April 2004; they wanted the translator to take her time and do her work properly. Although the translation WAS ready to be published 1-2 months earlier, the Swedish publishers chose not to - in the end of February, we have the Big Book Sale in Sweden every year, and they didn't want two such major events to "collide"...
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draco all the way - Apr 20, 2004 5:57 am (#119 of 334)
In my language,tamil, we have different names for every person in the family. It differs based on age and whether that person's from your mother's side or from your father's side. And as practically everyone is family by marriage it's hard to remember how to call everyone. And since we are all so hot headed and tempermental people get very offended if you give them the wrong title. Just a small contribution from my side of the planet.
Also I'm very interested in knowing how the people translated HP into HIndi because we have postively NO legends or myths on unicorns and spinxes and mermaids. So I was just wondering what they translated them as.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 20, 2004 6:23 am (#120 of 334)
"Anyone can cook"
Draco ATW, I suspect they translate them as unicorns, sphinx, and mermaids. Mythology is picked up easily. It helps give the stories the proper flavor.
Marcus
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mononoke - Apr 22, 2004 4:59 am (#121 of 334)
Believe me,Thai version is the worst Harry Potter translated edition I've ever seen!!!
You don't know the huge difference until you start reading English Version,then...Oh God....what did I miss?!?! They even forget one paragraph in PS!!! I don't know if they correct it now but,still,it's the best seller,makes kids reading a lot more AND introduces me to the Potter world so...I'll try forgeting this mistake.
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 24, 2004 11:14 am (#122 of 334)
A question; the magazine Luna's father publishes, "The Quibbler" - what is it called in other languages ?
In Swedish it's called "Hört och sett" (= "Heard and Seen"), which is a reference to the Swedish "gossip-magazine" "Se och hör" (="See and hear"); it's all about celebrities, royalty and so on...
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Mrs. Sirius - May 3, 2004 10:37 pm (#123 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I find the the Spanish versions of the Potter books do not have the lightness of humour the books are written in. In "Dudley Demented" his friends call him "Big D", which Harry over hears then teases him about.
The name is not translated at all, in the Spanish OoTP. They use the English "Big D". "Gran D" (-grande- being how the word is written and pronounced in Spanish) seems such an obvious and easy translation that is well in keeping with the humor and play JKR has in the scene.
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Tomoé - May 3, 2004 11:39 pm (#124 of 334)
Back in business
Maybe Spanish boys do think English nicknames are cooler than Spanish nicknames. In French, "Big D" sounds much cooler than "Grand D".
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Mrs. Sirius - May 17, 2004 10:36 pm (#125 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I purchased my OoTP in Spanish from Amazon. Since I was unable to use the Lexicon link to bring up OoTP in Amazon, I just assumed that I had gotten Amazon in Europe. The edition I have was printed in Spain.
I was surprised to realize that is does not use the "vosotros" verb form all. (The English equivalent I think would be something like I think thou" instead of "I think you")
This makes reading far less jarring for me but it is a bit confusing as a Spanish language book printed in Spain I would expect to use the form. If they printed it with the American market in mind are there 2 versions?
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prof sprout - May 21, 2004 5:01 pm (#126 of 334)
I could have sworn, my Spanish, PS/SS has the form vosotros form. What I learned vosotros form as is: You guys (informal) the plural of the tu form. When I stayed in Spain, I could never get use to using that form. None of my teachers in the US emphasized that form.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 21, 2004 11:45 pm (#127 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Yes, the prior books did use the vosotros form. That form isn't commonly used on this side of the Atlantic. Only 1 or 2 countries you it. I think only Argentina or Chile. It is a rather disconcerting form for my to use, I always have to stop and digest it when I hear it.
Now I will have to run down and check to see if books 2, 3 and 4 use it but I know they do in PS/SS. What I want to know is if they are printing an "American side of the Ocean" edition of OoTP in Spain, or are they just dropping the vosotros form altogether in Spain?
Also OoTP is sooo much easier to read in Spanish than the 4 previous books. Is it because of the translater or is the greater Spanish literary world making Spanish more reader friendly?
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - May 22, 2004 8:51 pm (#128 of 334)
When I started learning Spanish in school, we always had to memorize the vosotros from, and since I tend to use its rough equivalent in English alot, I like using it in Spanish. It could be since we don't have any equivalent of a "formal" address for people, that the Ud. seems too formal to use when I'm referring to my friends... I can check the version my Spanish teacher has of COS to see if that uses the vosotros form or not.
Mrs.Sirius- maybe they got a different translater? Or it could be that the translater didn't have to spend as much time trying to translate names, places and new spells, etc. because most of that happened in the previous books, and they could spend more time on just getting the right ideas across instead.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 22, 2004 10:31 pm (#129 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I checked today. They use the "vosotros" form up to book 3. The easiest way to find it is in any scene where Mrs. Weasley talks to the twins. I was unable to find any use of that form in GOF.
And yes, the translator is new in OoTP. I thought that perhaps my reading of Spanish had improved significantly since last reading GOF, but going through the books tonight, the first books seem just as heavy. This translator, Gemma Rovira Ortega is far more conversational in her work. It's very easy to read her translation.
She does however use more words in the reflexive form. At one point she used a a word, "descalentando(se)" which is a back formation, "calentar" = to heat. In Spanish you can add "se" to make a word reflexsive.
I distinctly remember using that work once myself. I was in the Dominican Republic talking to a family friend. I said something using that word and it caused quite a stir. The word I was told is not correct. It is a back formation that does not exist in Spanish but is based a translating thoughts from English. My husband studied lingistics and speaks several languages quite well, I asked him about some of these super long words in OoTP and he thinks that this translator is making some words up as she goes along. And that her work reflexs strong English language based preferences.
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prof sprout - May 23, 2004 6:10 am (#130 of 334)
Man, I need to get OP in Spanish. I have been practicing my Spanish again, because I'm hoping to get a job around here that wants a bilingual speaker. So what better way than to get out my Spanish Harry Potter books. I think I'm doing pretty well, I have a small dictionary that I have with me while I'm reading. I have had 8 years in Spanish and been to Spanish speaking countries many times, but I never realized how much Spanish I actually knew until I started reading the books. I only have to look up a few words, but it is more for back reference than not knowing the context.
I want to let all of you non natives speakers know that I have a lot of respect for how awesome you all are on this forum. Most of you have better English than natives.
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scully jones - May 24, 2004 8:24 am (#131 of 334)
yeah right
My spanish teacher didn't teach us the Vosotros form. She said that people from Spain use it more than the people from Mexico. Since we're more likely to encounter Mexicans than Spaniards, she never bothered.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 24, 2004 9:58 pm (#132 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I think it's a shame that your teacher didn't cover the "vosotros" form. Yes it's true that the vast majority of Spanish speakers from the Americas don't use it, it is something that you would encounter in literature. And there are maybe 2 South American countries that use it in everyday speech.
Then of of course there the stray Spaniard that you'll meet. My cousin's wife is from Spain. In a normal conversation with her, (I find it very disconcerting), she'll suddenly come out with "¿vos hablais? I always have to stop and look at her to figure out what exactly it is I heard.
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Tomoé - May 24, 2004 10:24 pm (#133 of 334)
Back in business
My Spanish is soooo rusty, vosotros is the plural second person pronoun, right? And most of the Spanish speakers from Americas used ustedes (deferential plural third person pronoun) instead. Or was it usted?
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Miréimé - May 25, 2004 2:16 pm (#134 of 334)
Tomoé's only twin sister ^_~
That's the way I remember it, Tomoé (yes my Spanish is rusty too, but I remember this at least ^_~ )
Usted = deferential 3rd person sing. Ustedes = deferential 3rd person plur.
My Spanish teacher came from Belgium, so he make us learn the vosotros form and even the ceta (who sounds like a "th").
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prof sprout - May 28, 2004 9:13 am (#135 of 334)
vosotros, is the informal of Ustedes. It is the plural form of the Tu form. I hope this helps.
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Tomoé - May 28, 2004 10:15 am (#136 of 334)
Back in business
Yo
Tu
Él/Ella/Usted
Nosotros
Vosotros
Ellos/Ellas/Ustedes
It's coming back to me now. ^_^
By the way, how did they translate "Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed" (ch.6) ?
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Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 10:53 am (#137 of 334)
Back in business
Jazhara Ravenclaw, the Japanese version of OoP will be release the first day of September 2004 (14 months after the orignal version in English, that really give you the guts to switch to the original). Like the Japanese GoF, the book come in two tomes to make the book lighter to read.
The title is Hari Potta to Fushicho no Kishidan, and you can see the covers here.
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viapalfuriana - Jun 21, 2004 7:38 am (#138 of 334)
Hi Since I am Catalan (and so I speak Spanish as my second mother language) I wanted to say that in Spanish (European) version they should use Vosotros instead of Ustedes. Usted or Ustedes is only used for aged or unknown people. It's a deferential treatment. You use it to someone you are adressing to, but you use the 3rd person either singular or plural for verbs:
Are you tired? Singular informal: Estás cansado/cansada? Singular formal: Está usted cansado/cansada? Plural informal: Estáis cansados/cansadas? Plural formal: Están ustedes cansados/cansadas?
I find it unbelievable that your Spanish teachers did not teach you the form vosotros. It is seldom used in south-america, but anyway, people DO travel, don't they? What's the use of learning a language if they don't teach you a basic form. And I am not talking of the plsquamperfect preterit!!! Gulpin' gargoyles, gallopin' gorgons, merlin's beard!!!!!!! 
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prof sprout - Jun 21, 2004 11:08 am (#139 of 334)
Viapalfuriana What city in Spain are you from. I been to Spain twice, and have traveled around it. Do you live around Valencia, (I know they speak Valencian, but they doesn't Catalan areas close to the Valencia dialects. I stayed in Montenejos for a couple of weeks with my host family on vacation. My host family is from a small town near Valencia.
I wish we would have learned the vosotros form because most of my Spanish language travel is to Spain. But my Prof in college, was from Colombia, so she didn't worry about it, and my high school teacher learned Spanish in Mexico, so she didn't know it well either. It is a horrible cycle. But I think until more teachers either study in Spain of Spanish people come and teach here also. It is like most people in Europe know England English verses American English. If you haven't noticed from the forum there is a big difference. In the US most have teachers from Mexico and South America.
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viapalfuriana - Jun 22, 2004 1:10 am (#140 of 334)
Prof Sprout: I am from Sant Just Desvern, which is near Barcelona. Catalunya (or Catalonia, as you say in English) is at the north of Valencia. I don't know if you have heard of the Forum de les cultures (a meeting of different cultures which is being held in Barcelona). The Olympic Games in 1992 were held in Barcelona and last summer there were the FINA World Championships (Swimming, Water polo, diving...)
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Ladybug220 - Jun 23, 2004 3:39 pm (#141 of 334)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
I have to say that we were taught the vosotros form of all the verbs but I do remember my teacher telling us that it was mainly used in Spain and not in Mexico (and other LA countries).
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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 23, 2004 11:21 pm (#142 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Viapalfuriana,
Could you please clarify for me, are you saying that in the Spanish editions of OoTP, or better said the editions sold in Spain for the consumption of the European market, they don't use the vosotros form either?
All 5 of the my books were printed in Spain, however it seems that they stopped using the vosotros form in POA. In GOF there is a scene in which Mrs Weasley address the twins but she does not use the vosotros form (that's how I checked it). OoTP does not have a single vos, os or vosotros and I am up to 4hundred something.
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viapalfuriana - Jul 1, 2004 8:45 am (#143 of 334)
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 8:46 am
Mrs. Sirius, Sorry I didn't answer before, I didn't access the web for some days. I have not read the books in Spanish, only in English. But I asked some friends and they told me it was in Spanish from Spain, not from America. When you read something in Latinamerican, you feel it immediately. You can check if you have the Spanish version from Spain just by checking the names of the translators and the ISBN (International Standard Book Number), which is usually at the back cover of the book:
Translators: Adolfo Muñoz García & Nieves Martín Azofra (in both books)
PoA:
ISBN: 84-7888-519-6
Depósito legal: B-36.732-2000
GoF:
ISBN: 84-7888-645-1
Depósito legal: B-4.598-2001
Viapalfuriana
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tout le monde et personne - Jul 4, 2004 7:32 am (#144 of 334)
I can't help you with this Spanish problem but I just wanted to say something that surprised me the first time I read the Philosopher's stone in french (which is called Harry Potter à l'école des sorciers, which means Harry Potter at the wizards' school, very different from the English name, I think the translator just wanted to keep the suspense, because when you read Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone, you know what the mysterious thing hidden in Hogwarts is, whereas in french you don't know until Harry discovers it). I noticed that the word Voldemort had a very frightening meaning in french, whereas it doesn't have any meaning in English. The English translation for Voldemort would be "Deathflight" or "Deathsteal" it depends of the meaning of "vol" which can mean both "steal" and "flight" (mort means death). If I had to choose I probably use Deathflight. But the presence of the word "mort" in the french name make it more frightening that in the english version. The only thing I wonder is why JKR chose a name with a french meaning for Voldemort. Do you have any idea about that ?
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 4, 2004 8:25 am (#145 of 334)
If someone is interested; the syllable "Vold-" is pronounced just like the Swedish word "våld"; meaning "violence".
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Neldoreth - Jul 4, 2004 10:44 am (#146 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
"tt le md et pers", I've never thought about that: why did JKR choose this Name with french sonority? that would be indeed very interesting to hear her explanations (if there is one!)
I also read HP first in french (actually I began with PoA as it was the only HP-book available in library) and then I read all the serie through. I then decided to read in english, which was quite a challenge as I was at the time absolutely not used to read or speak in english. A friend of mine had told me she had found the english-writing quite easy to understand and I thought it could be a nice way of learning english and improve this language. Luckily I had read the books twice before I went to the english version (once in french and once in german...) so even though I didnt really good understand what was written, I knew what it was about.
Anyway, it took me quite a long time to get used to all these different names, translated in the different languages... Since then, I cant read HP in french anymore: its too disturbing to see Harry in french saying "vous" to Hagrid (its a polite, adult, respect way of adressing the people): thats one of the good point in english with the "you"!
I've only "forced" myself (though it wasnt that bad either ) to read OotP in french last Christmas so that I could understand some details from the book I had read twice since June... but thats all.
As for the translation of the titles, i'm quite curious to know how they will translate Book 6 (the HbP...) it sounds so weird in french
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 4, 2004 7:33 pm (#147 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Neldoreth, that is so funny. That is exactly how I feel when I see the Spanish "vosotros". In my case it's in reverse, in American Spanish we don't use the 2nd person plural familiar.
Now a question, on the Hermione thread, a French-Candian pointed out that in POA on page 304 several sentences are missing after the Defence Against Dark Arts final. In that translation the reader doesn't know that Hermione's boggart was Professor McGonagall.
From your post, I gather that you are in France. Have you noticed any such differences from your French translation and the English.
By the way Viapalfuriana, the ISN number on GOF is different from the one you listed although the translators are the same. I assume the difference is due my copy being paperback. So that still leaves me with the question, are they printing two versions in Spain? one for Europe and one for the Americas.
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Tomoé - Jul 4, 2004 10:05 pm (#148 of 334)
Back in business
Harry Potter et le Prince au sang mêlé or Harry Potter et le Prince sang-mêlé Oooh! that sound so bad!
I didn't read a HP books in French since OoP came out, it's sound so un-natural to hear them in French now (in my head that is), the dialogues sound stiff and I'm surprising myself trying to remember how it was written in English.
Right, Mrs Sirius, my sister-in-law's copy do have Hermione's boggart on page 304 (pocket size, 2001) while Tsuta's one don't (pocket size too, we don't know which year).
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Neldoreth - Jul 5, 2004 3:26 am (#149 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
and why not Harry Potter et le Prince des sang-mêlés ??? I know that HbP doesnt really refers to that... but it still sounds weird in french..;
Like Tomoe, I find it so "unnatural" to read in french: I only read HP once per book so that I can better understand some nuances that was sometimes too difficult in english.
Concerning PoA, I checked and Hermione's boggart is correctly translated in my copy (my sister borrowed it so I dont have the references)
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Tomoé - Jul 5, 2004 8:29 pm (#150 of 334)
Back in business
Or Harry Potter et le Prince métis, that sound much better. I don't like sang-mêlé at all.
So the copy you use to borrow do have that part too, while Tsuta's one doesn't. hum ...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
In the german version, Hagrid is not shown speaking a pronounced local accent, though a northern german background is hinted. In GoF, Cpt "Mad Eye Moody", he greets the students with "Moin", which is typical for "Niederdeutsch" or Frisian speaking areas and can be tranlated as "Good..." (Our dutch friends here should recognise this). Furthermore he is shown to drop or amalgamate some syllables for convenience ( "ha'm" instead of "haben" , "in'ner instead of "in der"). These are not exclusively typical to northern german accents.
In the niederdeutsch version, Hagrid´s way of speaking shows no difference, just the choice of words is more "slang"-like as that of other characters.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 15, 2004 12:12 pm (#102 of 334)
I know that the Hebrew translator had a problem with Hagrid's way of speech, as well as with the House Elves'. In one of the cases (I don't remember which one) the editors sort of decided for her how to translate it...
Anyway, in the Hebrew version, Hagrid speaks in a strange way - it's not slang, and he doesn't drop syllables, but he inserts unnecessary words and it sounds as if he's just uneducated or something like that... Hard to explain. The House Elves speak with obvious grammatic mistakes, and mostly in third-person.
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Karla Labanda - Feb 17, 2004 11:54 am (#103 of 334)
Prof. Sprout:
Do you speak Japanese?, me too, well only a little. I will travel to Japan on October,
The names of Creatures and Characters are not change in Spanish version, but I will look it on Saturday when I buy it.
Fantastic Beast and Where find them are available in Spanish too.
Bye
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prof sprout - Feb 17, 2004 12:53 pm (#104 of 334)
Edited by Feb 17, 2004 11:55 am
Karla,
I speak some Japanese, I forgot a lot of it though. I responded to your "tell about yourself" I actually spoke more Spanish in Japan than I did English, since my translator spoke fluent Portuguese and was more comfortable speaking Spanish.
Yo hablo espanol tambien. Yo tuve 8 anos de espanol en escuela.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 22, 2004 9:48 pm (#105 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Karla, Welcome! I too am a native Spanish speaker and am happy to find someone with whom to discuss the books in Spanish (that's over and above all the English lanuguage discussion). I have been in the USA a long time and don't have much opportunity for Spanish speaking and reading. I have used the HP books to practice reading my native language as it is one of the few books I have been able to read in Spanish. ¿Qual vercion de los libros tiene? the Spanish or South American version? We have the Spanish-European version. I have not been able to track the South American version. I also heard somewhere that there is a Mexican version but I haven't seen anything else about that one. Welcome, Maritza
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Karla Labanda - Feb 25, 2004 6:53 am (#106 of 334)
Prof. Sprout and Maritza.
I am very happy to found people who speak Spanish. If you want we can practice Spanish. I love the idea.
Maritza I have only the Spanish - European version, sometimes I do not understand very well the words, but for the fith book Ecuador will have a version to Latin América
I was thinking and perharps I don't know if is a good idea, we can make a list about changes or perhaps names of some characters or creatures in the different language versions of the book. For example in Spanish books you-know-who name was Tom Marvolo Riddle. in spanish the name was Tom Sorvolo Ryddle.
Let me know your opinion
Thank your for your welcome
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viapalfuriana - Mar 4, 2004 2:54 am (#107 of 334)
I have only read the books in English, but I have a friend who has read them in Catalan and we have been commenting on the translations. Swedish Short-Snout (Sweden) in Catalan morrominso marroquí morro=snout minso=little marroquí=from morocco obviously, Sweden is not morocco, but the translator preferred to keep the same music of letters (s s s, m m m). Pete Pettigrew is Ben Babau (Very stupid)
Prof Sprout= Professora Col-i-flor (coliflower) whomping willow= Pi Cabaralla (fighting pine). In fact a picabaralla is a fight Blast-Ended Skrewt= Uix-ecs cul de tro (uix or ecs are used when you see something really disgusting), while cul is the bottom and tro is thunder
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viapalfuriana - Mar 4, 2004 3:52 am (#108 of 334)
Tom Riddle in Catalan= Tod Rodlel Morvosc (Sóc Lord Voldemort) Sóc= I am In Spanish Tom Sorvolo Ryddle (Soy L V)
Diagon Alley= Ronda d'Allà (Road out there more or less) Colin Creevey= Pau Parra (Pau=Paul, though it also means Peace, but it has no importance here) Parra=it's a plant). Paparra= a very annoying person.
There was one translator for the 1st book in Spanish (Alicia Dellepiane), then a couple (Adolfo Muñoz and Nieves Martín) for books 2, 3 and 4 and another one (Gemma Rovira) for the 5th. The translators in books 2-4 complained because in book 1 the translator did not translate any name, so they have to keep the no-translated names for next books and they had to be careful not to start translating all the names for new characters, since it would sound very strange. You know, all of a sudden, new characters with Spanish names. They had to do it gradually. But, as we all say, all names have a meaning or tell something about the characters and it is good that readers in foreign languages get this meaning. I think the Catalan translator (Laura Escorihuela) did a very good job (I have not read the books, but my friend keeps me updated). They have changed the translator for the 5th book (Xavier Pàmies) and there has been a very obvious change. He uses some words that seem incorrect, Spanish words rather than Catalan. Warner Bross, owner of the exploitation rights of the characters, made the translators sign a document giving them the copyright of the names they had translated. Laura Escorihuela refused to sign it and she thinks it might have influenced on the fact that she is not translating the 5th book. Now they can only translate the names that Warner authorizes in a list.
You can read it (in Spanish) in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] See you
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prof sprout - Mar 28, 2004 3:09 pm (#109 of 334)
Partially because I want to keep this thread alive, and because I'm curious. How did the Spanish translators do for OotP? I haven't had a chance to buy it yet.
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Mrs. Sirius - Apr 9, 2004 10:32 pm (#110 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I just started "La Orden del Fénix" in Spanish. It is 893 pages long.
I am curious, I ordered through Amazon. My edition is from Spain. Karla or anyone else who has it in Spanish, is their an American Spanish version? I thought I read somewhere that there is an edition from Mexico.
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 17, 2004 2:56 pm (#111 of 334)
Anybody want to know anything about the Swedish translation ? "Order of the Phoenix" has - finally - being published in Swedish, so I can join this Forum again, after nearly 10 months of "exile"...! I didn't buy the English book, because I collect the "Adult Pocket Edition", and that one isn't available yet (not in Sweden, at least). So I haven't read "Order of the Phoenix" in English yet...
Swedish is, off course, the most beautiful language in the world, but it HAS it's drawbacks; for instance, we have no word for "grandmother". (Nor for "grandfather", "grandparents", "grandson" or "granddaughter" - although we DO have a word for "grandchild".) The word "grandmother" must be translated with either "farmor" (= "fathermother") or "mormor" (= "mothermother"), and I think there is a tendency to choose "mothermother" when the translator don't know what it is - just as it's a tendency to translate "grandfather" with "fatherfather". Well, in the first book, there was no clue whether Neville's grandmother was his father's or his mother's mother, so the Swedish translator chose "mothermother". Not until she read the fifth book she understood that it should have been "fathermother" all the time...
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Czarina - Apr 17, 2004 5:42 pm (#112 of 334)
Was it changed?
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 18, 2004 4:30 am (#113 of 334)
Yes, it was changed. It had to be; it is said clearly in the book that Neville's father is Grandma's son.
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septentrion - Apr 18, 2004 6:21 am (#114 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
How does it come that these words doesn't exist in Swedish ? (BTW I like those swedish writers who are Henning Mankell and Ake Edwardson, but I read them in French !)
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 18, 2004 8:35 am (#115 of 334)
I don't know; you have to talk to an expert of the Swedish language. I think there have been words meaning "grandfather" and "grandmother" in our language once, but they for some reason became unmodern and disappeared... Languages change, you know.
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scully jones - Apr 18, 2004 8:43 am (#116 of 334)
yeah right
In chinese, there's a different name for every single member of the family. Your father's mother and mother's mother also have their own separate names. I only know la mou (don't hate me if it's spelled wrong, I've only ever heard it said out loud) for mother's mother.
The words for aunts on your mothers side are da(big) yi (again, don't quote me on that), for oldest aunt, shou(small) yi for youngest aunt. If there are more in between, it's(2) ar yi, (3)san yi, (4)sz yi (which is unlucky to be, because sz also means dead).
I wonder how the translators for the chinese version had Neville's Grandmother categorized?
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VeronikaG - Apr 18, 2004 10:10 am (#117 of 334)
Order of the Phoenix hasn't been translated to Swedish until now? It was available in Norwegian in October last year. Strange.
In Norwegian we have two different terms for grandparents. One is exactly like Swedish, mothermother, and so. The other version is more like the English. We say they are "best parents".
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 19, 2004 8:59 am (#118 of 334)
The Swedish translation of "Order of the Phoenix" was published the 3rd of April 2004; they wanted the translator to take her time and do her work properly. Although the translation WAS ready to be published 1-2 months earlier, the Swedish publishers chose not to - in the end of February, we have the Big Book Sale in Sweden every year, and they didn't want two such major events to "collide"...
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draco all the way - Apr 20, 2004 5:57 am (#119 of 334)
In my language,tamil, we have different names for every person in the family. It differs based on age and whether that person's from your mother's side or from your father's side. And as practically everyone is family by marriage it's hard to remember how to call everyone. And since we are all so hot headed and tempermental people get very offended if you give them the wrong title. Just a small contribution from my side of the planet.
Also I'm very interested in knowing how the people translated HP into HIndi because we have postively NO legends or myths on unicorns and spinxes and mermaids. So I was just wondering what they translated them as.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 20, 2004 6:23 am (#120 of 334)
"Anyone can cook"
Draco ATW, I suspect they translate them as unicorns, sphinx, and mermaids. Mythology is picked up easily. It helps give the stories the proper flavor.
Marcus
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mononoke - Apr 22, 2004 4:59 am (#121 of 334)
Believe me,Thai version is the worst Harry Potter translated edition I've ever seen!!!
You don't know the huge difference until you start reading English Version,then...Oh God....what did I miss?!?! They even forget one paragraph in PS!!! I don't know if they correct it now but,still,it's the best seller,makes kids reading a lot more AND introduces me to the Potter world so...
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Lars Smedberg - Apr 24, 2004 11:14 am (#122 of 334)
A question; the magazine Luna's father publishes, "The Quibbler" - what is it called in other languages ?
In Swedish it's called "Hört och sett" (= "Heard and Seen"), which is a reference to the Swedish "gossip-magazine" "Se och hör" (="See and hear"); it's all about celebrities, royalty and so on...
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Mrs. Sirius - May 3, 2004 10:37 pm (#123 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I find the the Spanish versions of the Potter books do not have the lightness of humour the books are written in. In "Dudley Demented" his friends call him "Big D", which Harry over hears then teases him about.
The name is not translated at all, in the Spanish OoTP. They use the English "Big D". "Gran D" (-grande- being how the word is written and pronounced in Spanish) seems such an obvious and easy translation that is well in keeping with the humor and play JKR has in the scene.
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Tomoé - May 3, 2004 11:39 pm (#124 of 334)
Back in business
Maybe Spanish boys do think English nicknames are cooler than Spanish nicknames. In French, "Big D" sounds much cooler than "Grand D".
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Mrs. Sirius - May 17, 2004 10:36 pm (#125 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I purchased my OoTP in Spanish from Amazon. Since I was unable to use the Lexicon link to bring up OoTP in Amazon, I just assumed that I had gotten Amazon in Europe. The edition I have was printed in Spain.
I was surprised to realize that is does not use the "vosotros" verb form all. (The English equivalent I think would be something like I think thou" instead of "I think you")
This makes reading far less jarring for me but it is a bit confusing as a Spanish language book printed in Spain I would expect to use the form. If they printed it with the American market in mind are there 2 versions?
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prof sprout - May 21, 2004 5:01 pm (#126 of 334)
I could have sworn, my Spanish, PS/SS has the form vosotros form. What I learned vosotros form as is: You guys (informal) the plural of the tu form. When I stayed in Spain, I could never get use to using that form. None of my teachers in the US emphasized that form.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 21, 2004 11:45 pm (#127 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Yes, the prior books did use the vosotros form. That form isn't commonly used on this side of the Atlantic. Only 1 or 2 countries you it. I think only Argentina or Chile. It is a rather disconcerting form for my to use, I always have to stop and digest it when I hear it.
Now I will have to run down and check to see if books 2, 3 and 4 use it but I know they do in PS/SS. What I want to know is if they are printing an "American side of the Ocean" edition of OoTP in Spain, or are they just dropping the vosotros form altogether in Spain?
Also OoTP is sooo much easier to read in Spanish than the 4 previous books. Is it because of the translater or is the greater Spanish literary world making Spanish more reader friendly?
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Jazhara Ravenclaw - May 22, 2004 8:51 pm (#128 of 334)
When I started learning Spanish in school, we always had to memorize the vosotros from, and since I tend to use its rough equivalent in English alot, I like using it in Spanish. It could be since we don't have any equivalent of a "formal" address for people, that the Ud. seems too formal to use when I'm referring to my friends... I can check the version my Spanish teacher has of COS to see if that uses the vosotros form or not.
Mrs.Sirius- maybe they got a different translater? Or it could be that the translater didn't have to spend as much time trying to translate names, places and new spells, etc. because most of that happened in the previous books, and they could spend more time on just getting the right ideas across instead.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 22, 2004 10:31 pm (#129 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I checked today. They use the "vosotros" form up to book 3. The easiest way to find it is in any scene where Mrs. Weasley talks to the twins. I was unable to find any use of that form in GOF.
And yes, the translator is new in OoTP. I thought that perhaps my reading of Spanish had improved significantly since last reading GOF, but going through the books tonight, the first books seem just as heavy. This translator, Gemma Rovira Ortega is far more conversational in her work. It's very easy to read her translation.
She does however use more words in the reflexive form. At one point she used a a word, "descalentando(se)" which is a back formation, "calentar" = to heat. In Spanish you can add "se" to make a word reflexsive.
I distinctly remember using that work once myself. I was in the Dominican Republic talking to a family friend. I said something using that word and it caused quite a stir. The word I was told is not correct. It is a back formation that does not exist in Spanish but is based a translating thoughts from English. My husband studied lingistics and speaks several languages quite well, I asked him about some of these super long words in OoTP and he thinks that this translator is making some words up as she goes along. And that her work reflexs strong English language based preferences.
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prof sprout - May 23, 2004 6:10 am (#130 of 334)
Man, I need to get OP in Spanish. I have been practicing my Spanish again, because I'm hoping to get a job around here that wants a bilingual speaker. So what better way than to get out my Spanish Harry Potter books. I think I'm doing pretty well, I have a small dictionary that I have with me while I'm reading. I have had 8 years in Spanish and been to Spanish speaking countries many times, but I never realized how much Spanish I actually knew until I started reading the books. I only have to look up a few words, but it is more for back reference than not knowing the context.
I want to let all of you non natives speakers know that I have a lot of respect for how awesome you all are on this forum. Most of you have better English than natives.
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scully jones - May 24, 2004 8:24 am (#131 of 334)
yeah right
My spanish teacher didn't teach us the Vosotros form. She said that people from Spain use it more than the people from Mexico. Since we're more likely to encounter Mexicans than Spaniards, she never bothered.
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Mrs. Sirius - May 24, 2004 9:58 pm (#132 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I think it's a shame that your teacher didn't cover the "vosotros" form. Yes it's true that the vast majority of Spanish speakers from the Americas don't use it, it is something that you would encounter in literature. And there are maybe 2 South American countries that use it in everyday speech.
Then of of course there the stray Spaniard that you'll meet. My cousin's wife is from Spain. In a normal conversation with her, (I find it very disconcerting), she'll suddenly come out with "¿vos hablais? I always have to stop and look at her to figure out what exactly it is I heard.
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Tomoé - May 24, 2004 10:24 pm (#133 of 334)
Back in business
My Spanish is soooo rusty, vosotros is the plural second person pronoun, right? And most of the Spanish speakers from Americas used ustedes (deferential plural third person pronoun) instead. Or was it usted?
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Miréimé - May 25, 2004 2:16 pm (#134 of 334)
Tomoé's only twin sister ^_~
That's the way I remember it, Tomoé (yes my Spanish is rusty too, but I remember this at least ^_~ )
Usted = deferential 3rd person sing. Ustedes = deferential 3rd person plur.
My Spanish teacher came from Belgium, so he make us learn the vosotros form and even the ceta (who sounds like a "th").
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prof sprout - May 28, 2004 9:13 am (#135 of 334)
vosotros, is the informal of Ustedes. It is the plural form of the Tu form. I hope this helps.
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Tomoé - May 28, 2004 10:15 am (#136 of 334)
Back in business
Yo
Tu
Él/Ella/Usted
Nosotros
Vosotros
Ellos/Ellas/Ustedes
It's coming back to me now. ^_^
By the way, how did they translate "Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed" (ch.6) ?
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Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 10:53 am (#137 of 334)
Back in business
Jazhara Ravenclaw, the Japanese version of OoP will be release the first day of September 2004 (14 months after the orignal version in English, that really give you the guts to switch to the original). Like the Japanese GoF, the book come in two tomes to make the book lighter to read.
The title is Hari Potta to Fushicho no Kishidan, and you can see the covers here.
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viapalfuriana - Jun 21, 2004 7:38 am (#138 of 334)
Hi Since I am Catalan (and so I speak Spanish as my second mother language) I wanted to say that in Spanish (European) version they should use Vosotros instead of Ustedes. Usted or Ustedes is only used for aged or unknown people. It's a deferential treatment. You use it to someone you are adressing to, but you use the 3rd person either singular or plural for verbs:
Are you tired? Singular informal: Estás cansado/cansada? Singular formal: Está usted cansado/cansada? Plural informal: Estáis cansados/cansadas? Plural formal: Están ustedes cansados/cansadas?
I find it unbelievable that your Spanish teachers did not teach you the form vosotros. It is seldom used in south-america, but anyway, people DO travel, don't they? What's the use of learning a language if they don't teach you a basic form. And I am not talking of the plsquamperfect preterit!!! Gulpin' gargoyles, gallopin' gorgons, merlin's beard!!!!!!!
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prof sprout - Jun 21, 2004 11:08 am (#139 of 334)
Viapalfuriana What city in Spain are you from. I been to Spain twice, and have traveled around it. Do you live around Valencia, (I know they speak Valencian, but they doesn't Catalan areas close to the Valencia dialects. I stayed in Montenejos for a couple of weeks with my host family on vacation. My host family is from a small town near Valencia.
I wish we would have learned the vosotros form because most of my Spanish language travel is to Spain. But my Prof in college, was from Colombia, so she didn't worry about it, and my high school teacher learned Spanish in Mexico, so she didn't know it well either. It is a horrible cycle. But I think until more teachers either study in Spain of Spanish people come and teach here also. It is like most people in Europe know England English verses American English. If you haven't noticed from the forum there is a big difference. In the US most have teachers from Mexico and South America.
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viapalfuriana - Jun 22, 2004 1:10 am (#140 of 334)
Prof Sprout: I am from Sant Just Desvern, which is near Barcelona. Catalunya (or Catalonia, as you say in English) is at the north of Valencia. I don't know if you have heard of the Forum de les cultures (a meeting of different cultures which is being held in Barcelona). The Olympic Games in 1992 were held in Barcelona and last summer there were the FINA World Championships (Swimming, Water polo, diving...)
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Ladybug220 - Jun 23, 2004 3:39 pm (#141 of 334)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
I have to say that we were taught the vosotros form of all the verbs but I do remember my teacher telling us that it was mainly used in Spain and not in Mexico (and other LA countries).
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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 23, 2004 11:21 pm (#142 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Viapalfuriana,
Could you please clarify for me, are you saying that in the Spanish editions of OoTP, or better said the editions sold in Spain for the consumption of the European market, they don't use the vosotros form either?
All 5 of the my books were printed in Spain, however it seems that they stopped using the vosotros form in POA. In GOF there is a scene in which Mrs Weasley address the twins but she does not use the vosotros form (that's how I checked it). OoTP does not have a single vos, os or vosotros and I am up to 4hundred something.
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viapalfuriana - Jul 1, 2004 8:45 am (#143 of 334)
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 8:46 am
Mrs. Sirius, Sorry I didn't answer before, I didn't access the web for some days. I have not read the books in Spanish, only in English. But I asked some friends and they told me it was in Spanish from Spain, not from America. When you read something in Latinamerican, you feel it immediately. You can check if you have the Spanish version from Spain just by checking the names of the translators and the ISBN (International Standard Book Number), which is usually at the back cover of the book:
Translators: Adolfo Muñoz García & Nieves Martín Azofra (in both books)
PoA:
ISBN: 84-7888-519-6
Depósito legal: B-36.732-2000
GoF:
ISBN: 84-7888-645-1
Depósito legal: B-4.598-2001
Viapalfuriana
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tout le monde et personne - Jul 4, 2004 7:32 am (#144 of 334)
I can't help you with this Spanish problem but I just wanted to say something that surprised me the first time I read the Philosopher's stone in french (which is called Harry Potter à l'école des sorciers, which means Harry Potter at the wizards' school, very different from the English name, I think the translator just wanted to keep the suspense, because when you read Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone, you know what the mysterious thing hidden in Hogwarts is, whereas in french you don't know until Harry discovers it). I noticed that the word Voldemort had a very frightening meaning in french, whereas it doesn't have any meaning in English. The English translation for Voldemort would be "Deathflight" or "Deathsteal" it depends of the meaning of "vol" which can mean both "steal" and "flight" (mort means death). If I had to choose I probably use Deathflight. But the presence of the word "mort" in the french name make it more frightening that in the english version. The only thing I wonder is why JKR chose a name with a french meaning for Voldemort. Do you have any idea about that ?
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 4, 2004 8:25 am (#145 of 334)
If someone is interested; the syllable "Vold-" is pronounced just like the Swedish word "våld"; meaning "violence".
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Neldoreth - Jul 4, 2004 10:44 am (#146 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
"tt le md et pers", I've never thought about that: why did JKR choose this Name with french sonority? that would be indeed very interesting to hear her explanations (if there is one!)
I also read HP first in french (actually I began with PoA as it was the only HP-book available in library) and then I read all the serie through. I then decided to read in english, which was quite a challenge as I was at the time absolutely not used to read or speak in english. A friend of mine had told me she had found the english-writing quite easy to understand and I thought it could be a nice way of learning english and improve this language. Luckily I had read the books twice before I went to the english version (once in french and once in german...) so even though I didnt really good understand what was written, I knew what it was about.
Anyway, it took me quite a long time to get used to all these different names, translated in the different languages... Since then, I cant read HP in french anymore: its too disturbing to see Harry in french saying "vous" to Hagrid (its a polite, adult, respect way of adressing the people): thats one of the good point in english with the "you"!
I've only "forced" myself (though it wasnt that bad either ) to read OotP in french last Christmas so that I could understand some details from the book I had read twice since June... but thats all.
As for the translation of the titles, i'm quite curious to know how they will translate Book 6 (the HbP...) it sounds so weird in french
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 4, 2004 7:33 pm (#147 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Neldoreth, that is so funny. That is exactly how I feel when I see the Spanish "vosotros". In my case it's in reverse, in American Spanish we don't use the 2nd person plural familiar.
Now a question, on the Hermione thread, a French-Candian pointed out that in POA on page 304 several sentences are missing after the Defence Against Dark Arts final. In that translation the reader doesn't know that Hermione's boggart was Professor McGonagall.
From your post, I gather that you are in France. Have you noticed any such differences from your French translation and the English.
By the way Viapalfuriana, the ISN number on GOF is different from the one you listed although the translators are the same. I assume the difference is due my copy being paperback. So that still leaves me with the question, are they printing two versions in Spain? one for Europe and one for the Americas.
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Tomoé - Jul 4, 2004 10:05 pm (#148 of 334)
Back in business
Harry Potter et le Prince au sang mêlé or Harry Potter et le Prince sang-mêlé Oooh! that sound so bad!
I didn't read a HP books in French since OoP came out, it's sound so un-natural to hear them in French now (in my head that is), the dialogues sound stiff and I'm surprising myself trying to remember how it was written in English.
Right, Mrs Sirius, my sister-in-law's copy do have Hermione's boggart on page 304 (pocket size, 2001) while Tsuta's one don't (pocket size too, we don't know which year).
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Neldoreth - Jul 5, 2004 3:26 am (#149 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
and why not Harry Potter et le Prince des sang-mêlés ??? I know that HbP doesnt really refers to that... but it still sounds weird in french..;
Like Tomoe, I find it so "unnatural" to read in french: I only read HP once per book so that I can better understand some nuances that was sometimes too difficult in english.
Concerning PoA, I checked and Hermione's boggart is correctly translated in my copy (my sister borrowed it so I dont have the references)
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Tomoé - Jul 5, 2004 8:29 pm (#150 of 334)
Back in business
Or Harry Potter et le Prince métis, that sound much better. I don't like sang-mêlé at all.
So the copy you use to borrow do have that part too, while Tsuta's one doesn't. hum ...
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 151 to 200)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:54 am
septentrion - Jul 6, 2004 3:18 am (#151 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think I remember having read about Hermione's boggart in my french version too, but like Neldoreth and Tomoé, I just use my french version for some precisions.
I've noticed a difference between french and english in CoS : when Ron and Harry can't get through the barrier, Ron explains to Harry that his parents don't need the car to go back home because they can apparate. This paragraph about apparating is missing in the french book. On some other places, the translator has put some good puns (cochon d'Inde - cochon-dinde in PoA).
About Voldemort's name, I think I've already posted it somewhere but I'll put it here again :
vol = flight or robbery
de = from or of
mort = death or dead
that name can have 6 meanings in English. How clever of JKR !
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septentrion - Jul 7, 2004 12:49 am (#152 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
My french version of PoA (pocket size) has Hermione's boggart.
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Neldoreth - Jul 7, 2004 6:57 am (#153 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
I havent read all this thread, so you'll excuse me if this has already been mentionned: I just found a very interesting link where HP-Names from different languages are enlisted.
Harry Potter International
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haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 8:56 am (#154 of 334)
Neldoreth - that was a neat link!
I noticed that "Harry Potter" was left intact.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 14, 2004 2:16 am (#155 of 334)
Edited by Jul 14, 2004 2:18 am
My english version of CoS doesn't have that paragraph about apparating.... That's weird... Or am I just senile?
Edit: I checked it, and I was right - I don't have that paragraph. Is it something that has been added in later editions?
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septentrion - Jul 14, 2004 5:13 am (#156 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
this paragraph is in the american edition, in chapter "the whomping willow", p 69 paperback : "they don't need the car !" said Ron impatiently. "They know how to Apparate ! You know, just vanish and reappear at home !" This is when Ron and Harry decided to use the flying car to get to Hogwarts.
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 14, 2004 10:47 am (#157 of 334)
Well, I can't find it in the British "Adult cover" paperback - and neither in the Swedish translation, which is based on the British version.
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septentrion - Jul 14, 2004 10:52 am (#158 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
and it isn't in the french version either.
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Tomoé - Jul 14, 2004 5:48 pm (#159 of 334)
Back in business
It's not in my UK hardcover edition either.
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Erikson - Jul 31, 2004 12:31 pm (#160 of 334)
I'm from Romania and here are some words: Voldemort--Cap-de-Mort(it means Head of a Dead) Padfoot-Amprenta Moony-Lunaticul(luna=moon) Prongs-Corn Wormtail-Sobo(sobolan=rat) Boggart-Bong
and so on these were the most important I think. I have no ideea how are they going to translate HBP because I didn't find in the books a term for half-blood only for pure-blood(sange pur)
But they made a great job translating and I'm happy about it
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Ann - Aug 6, 2004 6:50 am (#161 of 334)
Those of you reading HP in languages other than English might want to know that Weasley by Nature has just posted a note on the Meaning of the Prophecy thread suggesting that you might help us. In English, the Prophecy is very unclear:
"either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives."
If your translation is any clearer, you might want to post your views on the Prophecy thread. It would be even more valuable if there is any evidence that Rowling approved the translations.
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Lina - Aug 22, 2004 2:25 pm (#162 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I'm not sure that anybody is interested, but I have decided to give you some croatian...
I need to say that what I find the advantage of the HP series is that, apart from the interesting action, the language is very simple. Not boring simple but let me say that I have managed to read the books in english without using the dictionary. So it means that the words used in the book are more the common ones than the complicated ones. That makes the children who don't like to read books to start reading and this is the characteristic that I appreciate very much since I have one of those children. And I have to say that the croatian translator has done a great work. The books are just as interesting and as readable as in english.
So, i took a look at the link mentioned above and used the table to give you some of the words in croatian. The names of people are not changed at all, except Hermione becomes Hermiona but no significant changes to the names are made. The names of some animals do change, so here you are:
One more thing: to see the special characters correctly, you have to do: wiew --> Encoding --> Central European (windows)
English Croatian
Beater goniè
Bludger maljac
Boggart bauk
Buckbeak Kljunoslav
Chaser lovac/lovica
Crookshanks Krivonja
Daily Prophet Dnevni prorok
Death Eater smrtonoša
Dementor dementor
Diagon Alley Zakutna ulica
Fang Oènjak
The Fat Lady Debela dama
Firebolt Vatrena munja
Floo powder letiprah
Flourish & Blotts Krasopis i bugaèica
Fluffy Bundy
Howler urlojav
Keeper vratar
Knockturn Alley Ulica Nokturno
The Leaky Cauldron Šuplji kotliæ
The Marauder's Map Mapa za haranje
The Mirror of Erised ogledalo Erised
Moaning Myrtle Plaèljiva Myrtla
Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody Alastor Divljooki Moody
Moony Lunac
Mudblood mutnjak/mutnjakuša
Muggles bezjaci
Nearly Headless Nick Gotovo bezglavi Nick
Padfoot Tihotap
Parseltongue parselust
Polyjuice Potion višesokovni napitak
Portkey Putokljuè
Privet Drive Kalinin prilaz
Prongs Parožak
Quaffle balun
Quidditch metloboj
Scabbers Šugonja
Seeker tragaè
The Golden Snitch zlatna zvrèka
The Sorting Hat Razredbeni klobuk
The Triwizard Tournament Tromagijski turnir
The Whomping Willow Napadaèka vrba
Wormtail Crvorep
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Little Ginny - Sep 4, 2004 5:20 am (#163 of 334)
I have not read the Prophecy in German yet, but I doubt that it would be any help to anybody. I don't know whether JKR's German is fluent, but I don't think she'd like the German translation, at least not of the first three books. Apart from the fact that I do not like the writing style of the translator, which is just my personal opinion and therefore doesn't count, I was shocked to see that he mixed up several words. For example, the German reader doesn't know that Voldemorts wand was made of yew, for the translator read it either as yes or as phew. Also, the German reader thinks that Mr Weasley is interested in collecting ploughs, not plugs, and other things like that. But to top it all, the translator completely restructured one of the key chapters in PoA (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs), that is, he left out paragraphs or rearranged them, or wrote some new things in between. (If you are interested in a new translation of that chapter, you can mail me. my translation sounds a bit weird, since I'm not used to translating, but at least everything is in the right order. you'll find my adress if you click on my avatar.)
Sorry to write so much, but this had to be said.
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schoff - Sep 4, 2004 9:33 pm (#164 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 3, 2004 4:44 pm
Since the and obstacles guarding the Sorceror's (or Philosopher's) Stone, I've been thinking that maybe the sphynix's song might have something to do with the books? Has this been brought up before? If it has, please direct me in the right direction, this Lexicon is gigantic!
I hope you see this here, Jessalyn, since your thread was closed and I couldn't respond. I'm wondering if you are asking how the Sphynx's riddle was translated into other languages. We did discuss this a long time ago, but I dug up some old posts. Maybe some others will add other languages:
Miss Murderess: [Portuguese]
"Pensa no que é essencial à vida; que apesar de forte nunca te intimida; mais a palavrinha bem antes do nome, de Ginny, de Cho e de Hermione; e que uma artimanha vai finalizar; um bicho que não quererias beijar"
"Think in what is essencial to life; that although strong, never intimidates you (air = "ar"); plus de little word before de name, of Ginny, Cho and Hermione ("a" (used before feminine names)); and that a trick will end (trick = artimanha --> "nha"); a creature that you wouldn't want to kiss"
ar + a + nha = "aranha" = spider
Marie L.: [Russian]
"Moj pervij slog provornej vseh po pravu- On ochenj bistr na ruku, nogu i raspravu; Vtoroj moj slog estj plod okruzhnosti reshenij- Eje s diametrom zakonnih otnoshenij. Moj tretij slog - abstraktno nazvannij muzhchina- Ni cveta kozhi, ni familii, ni china. Slozhiv ih vmeste, cusjestvo ti obrazuesh, Kakoe ti skorej umresh, chem poceluesh."
"My first syllable is known to be the swiftest - It is very fast on hand, foot and for reprisal(quick=skor); My second syllable is a result of circumference solutions - Its ratio with diameter(pi). My third syllable - an abstractly called man - No skin colour, no surname, no rank(he=on). Put them together, and you'll form a creature, which you would rather die than kiss."
skor+pi+on="skorpion", meaning, yes, you've guessed it - scorpion.
Marè: [Dutch]
Denk aan iemand die van vermommingen leeft, Die altijd moet liegen en geheimen doorgeeft.
Wat draaglijk slecht maakt en doenlijk tot straf, Trek je vervolgens van dat eerste woord af.
Geef me als laatste de klank die je hoort, Als je meer maakt van één naam of één woord.
Voeg die drie dingen samen en zeg me dan gauw, welk schepsel je niet graag een zoen geven zou.
Think of some-one who lives from disguises, who always has to lie and passes on secrets (spion = spy)
What makes tolerable into bad en practicable into a punishment, you distract from that first word. ( on = un, as in untolerable)
Give me as last the sound you here, when you make more from one name or one word. (in dutch the plural for a lot of words are made by adding -en, which sounds as the letter N)
Put these three together and tell me quick, what creature you wouldn't want to kiss. (spion - on + n = spin. And a spin is a spider)
Nine: [French]
OK, the sphinx riddle in French: "D'abord, pense au premier de ce qu'il faut apprendre/Lorsque l'on ne sait rien a l'age le plus tendre." means "first, think of what one must learn, when one knows nothing, at the age the most...[I can't translate "tendre". Maybe "tender", meaning young?]" That's the alphabet, specifically the letter "A".
The next lines are "Ensuite, dis-moi donc ce que fait par naissance/ Celui qui, au palais, a elu residence." That translates to "then, tell me this that made by birth, it is he who, in a palace, has elevated residence." The clue means ruling king, or "rois regne".
The final couplet (except for the main clue) is "Enfin, pour decouvrir la derniere donnee/Il suffit de la prendre a la fin de l'annee." That translates to "Finally, to discover the end of the given, it suffices to take from the end of the year." This is a clue like the second clue of the English version ("middle of middle and the end of the end"), so the key here is "nee"
And the last two lines are "Tu connaitras ainsi la creature immonde/ Que tu n'embrasserais vraiment pour rien au monde." That means "Then [after you finish the clues] you will know the creature that you would truly never embrace for anything in the world. The answer is "A-reigne-nee" or "Araignee", which means spider, so they managed to keep the answer the same.
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Little Ginny - Sep 5, 2004 5:02 am (#165 of 334)
Okay, the Sphinx riddle in German:
Erst denk an den Menschen, der immer lügt, der Geheimnisse sucht und damit betrügt, doch um das Ganze nicht zu verwässern, nimm von dem Wort nur die ersten drei Lettern.
Nun denk an das Doppelte des Gewinns, den Anfang vom Nichts und die Mitte des Sinns.
Und schließlich ein Laut, ein Wörtchen nicht ganz, das du auch jetzt von dir selbst hören kannst.
Nun füg sie zusammen, denn dann wirst du wissen, welches Geschöpf du niemals willst küssen.
First think of person who always lies, who searches secrets and betrays with them, but in order not to water down the whole thing, take from this word only the first three letters.(Spion= spy; first three letters SPI)
Now think about the double of the winning (German: der Gewinn), the beginning of nothing (German: das Nichts) and the middle of sense (German: der Sinn; but here as genitive: des Sinns).(N)
And finally a sound, not really a little word, which at the moment you will hear from yourself as well. (NE, a little word used in colloquial speech for "no", also sometimes used like "isn't it?")
Now put them together, for then you will know which creature you’ll never want to kiss. (SPI+N+NE= SPINNE= SPIDER, so it's the same as in English)
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schoff - Sep 6, 2004 1:40 pm (#166 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Thanks, Little Ginny! I really have to brush up on my German! I barely recognized any words.
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kimio beach - Sep 8, 2004 7:48 pm (#167 of 334)
This was originally on the Petunia thread but someone suggested that I post it here as well. The post has subsequently sparked some debate as to whether translations of the HP books into other languages are reliable and if their contents can be considered "canon" evidence. What do you all think?
here is the original post:
Hello everyone, this is my first ever post, but have been lurking here for quite some time. And I finally made it through the Petunia thread, it took me a couple days!
I would like to add some info about the age-old question, is Petunia older or younger than Lily. I live in Japan and speak Japanese. In the Japanese language, there is no word for "sister". There are two separate words for "older sister" (in Japanese, the word is a-ne) and "younger sister" (imo-to) and you must specify which one when writing/speaking the language.
After reading the endless and unresolved debate on this thread, I thought that I would find out for you. (I read all the HP books in English, by the way) I popped into a Japanese bookstore and looked at the Japanese translated edition of Philosopher's Stone. drumroll... Petunia is the OLDER sister and Lily is the younger sister. Of course, we don't know how many years older though...
So, if the translated edition of the HP books can be considered canon, I think it is safe to say that Petunia is older.
Cheers!
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Tomoé - Sep 8, 2004 10:29 pm (#168 of 334)
Back in business
As I said over the Petunia thread, I sent a mail to Mrs Matsuoka (the Japanese translator) and ask her if she asked Jo about the ane / imoto translation or if she figured this out by herself. If I get an answer, I'll put it in both thread.
Kimio Beach -> Tomoe, do you speak Japanese too? Did you read the HP books in English or Japanese? Did you notice any other discrepancies?
I speak very little Japanese, I can't get pass the one clause sentences, thinking my sentences in reverse get me headaches. I'm a much better reader though, but I didn't read HP in Japanese (I'm an "original version" freak ^_~). Anyway, I was thinking to buy FB in Japanese to do some practice. Therefore, I wrote to Mrs Matsuoka in English, there an English section on the publisher website et Mrs Matsuoka should know English as she tralate it. ^_^
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haymoni - Sep 16, 2004 10:04 am (#169 of 334)
I saw a bumper sticker on a car yesterday - I think I've remembered it correctly. Thought you all might appreciate it.
"English does not BORROW from other languages.
Instead, English stalks other languages into dark alleys,
Beats them up and takes their loose grammar."
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caro - Sep 16, 2004 11:08 am (#170 of 334)
In the spanish versions of the books most of the names don't change. The only names that change are Tom Marvolo Riddle to Tom Sorvolo Ryddle, this way the letters can form "Soy Lord Voldemort". Mad eye Moody changes to Ojoloco Moody (Ojo=eye, loco=mad) and Moaning Myrtle has been changed to Myrtle la llorona (llorona=moaning)
Sorry if this has been said already but I haven't read the whole thread
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Tomoé - Sep 16, 2004 9:00 pm (#171 of 334)
Back in business
LOL haymoni! ^_^
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 18, 2004 8:56 pm (#172 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Oh Haymoni that is a classic, may I spread that one around?
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haymoni - Sep 21, 2004 7:47 am (#173 of 334)
Spread away!
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septentrion - Oct 9, 2004 6:29 am (#174 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I've found something weird in QA : in the 8th chapter, it's spoken about a play written by a french man Malécrit (Badwritten) : hélas, j'ai transfiguré mes pieds (alas, I've transfigured my feet). In the french version of QA, this french words have been transformed in la triste métamorphose de mes pauvres pieds by Forbien Narré (or the sad transformation of my poor feet by Verywell Told). I explain it by the fact that "transfiguration" has been translated by "métamorphose" since the 1st book but it could have been simplier. Weird I say.
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Tomoé - Oct 9, 2004 7:48 am (#175 of 334)
Back in business
Jo'S title sounds better, lots of "ay" (é/ai/es/ed), a good alternance of soft and hard consonants, I like the rythm of the title. Hélas, j'ai métamorphosé mes pieds have less hard consonants, but still had a good rythm. La triste métamorphose de mes pauvres pieds sounds flat.
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fortuna major - Oct 24, 2004 2:59 pm (#176 of 334)
I searched this thread but didn't see this addressed, please point me to the appropriate posts if I am mistaken.
Someone on the Marietta Edgecomb thread posted that in the Swedish translation, "sneak" was translated as "skvallerbytta" for "tattle-tale." He mentioned that this was quite a long word to fit on someone's face. It made me curious to find out other ways it was translated. Anyone want to post about their specific translation?
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Little Ginny - Oct 25, 2004 8:21 am (#177 of 334)
In German it's translated as "Petze", I think, which has pretty much the same meaning as "sneak" and fits very well into somebody's face.
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septentrion - Nov 3, 2004 3:23 am (#178 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I'll answer for the french version as soon as I buy the not yet released paperback french version of OoTP.
I've just read a book which takes place in Middle-Ages and see the word "grimaud". After an internet research, I found this : it is a despising word for scholars of lower class. Later, it meant a bad author. So not only "Grimmauld" makes a great pun but it's also near of a real word. I know the meaning of "grimaud" has nothing to do with HP (and certainly not with JKR) but I find it funny to see this "real" word !
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 4:23 am (#179 of 334)
You're right Septentrion! Which reminds me of another meaning for Grimaud: it was the name of Athos' servant in The Three Musqueteers. On other threads, there were parallels drawn between some characters of The Three Musketeers and HP characters. I find this funny because Grimaud is a very secret and silent person, used to obey to signs Athos made, not words, and Grimmauld place is also a very secret place that Harry didn't find thanks to words but signs (DD's words on a paper).
Besides, I've searched a little and grimaud comes from an old word (Grima) for mask: appropriate for a hidden place, isn't it?
But this should maybe belong to the "What's in a name?" thread. May I quote you if I post that there?
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septentrion - Nov 3, 2004 5:15 am (#180 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
of course you can quote me ! Well I have never read the what's in a name thread, maybe I should go there. BTW, isn't Grima Wormtongue's real name in the LotR ?
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 9:35 am (#181 of 334)
It is! What a perfect name for someone who hid his true loyalty for years, isn't it?
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prof sprout - Nov 11, 2004 3:59 pm (#182 of 334)
I was rereading my Spanish version of PS/SS and I came across the scene with the Swish and Flick, and in the book they use two different words for swish and flick, but a sentence later they translate the sentence about switching the "s" and the "f" using those same letters but the two words they used to translate Swish and flick didn't have an S or an F in it. I thought it was funny, You would have thought by the 30th printing they would have fixed it.
)
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Amilia Smith - Dec 15, 2004 11:56 am (#183 of 334)
Hi! I have just discovered this thread, and have really enjoyed reading through all of the posts. However, the trouble with playing catchup is that I find I want to reply to posts made over a year ago. :-) So bear with me for a moment. Waayy back when, VeronikaG was talking about the Norwegian translations of some of the various characters. About Justin Finch-Fletchley she said:
The Norwegian translator must have thought his English name was boring, because he named him Julius Finkenfjær. And I can assure you, that is not an ordinary Norwegian name. Fink is a little bird, very colorful, fjær means feathers. He was named this in the first book, when all we knew was that he was sorted into Hufflepuff, so it has nothing to do with his personality.
To this, I wanted to say that it looks to me that the translator just translated the words directly into Norwegian. In English, a finch is also a small, brightly colored bird (for example, a goldfinch is bright yellow with black markings). Also, fletchley has something to do with feathers. A fletcher was someone who made arrows. Fletchings are the feathers on an arrow. And to fletch means to feather. (Can you tell I looked this up in my dictionary to make sure I was right?)
Now, to change the subject completely, I would like to share an annedote with you concerning the differences between the British and American "translations." I recently bought Harry Potter on CD with Stephen Fry reading (ie, the British version). I was feeling very smug that I had no problem understanding what philosophers, jumpers, torches, or revision charts were. Then, in CoS, Percy comes down to breakfast at the Burrow completely dressed, with his prefect badge pinned to his tank-top. I did a double take. I listened to that track again. Yes indeed, Percy was wearing a tank-top. The picture of Percy in a wife-beater had me chuckling all the way home. Once I got home, I looked up the reference in my American version. Apparently, to Brits, a tank-top is a sweater vest. In America, a tank-top is a sleeveless undershirt. You would not wear it outside your clothes unless you were going to the gym, or the weather was really hot and you lived in a very downscale neighborhood.
Mills.
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Dr Filibuster - Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm (#184 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
A young man who wears a tank top conjures up a certain image in Britain; a definate nerd!
What was Percy wearing on the other side of the Atlantic that day?
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 15, 2004 2:47 pm (#185 of 334)
I Am Almighty!
He's wearing a sweater vest in the US version. And don't worry, Sue, the nerdiness was not lost in translation.
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Eponine - Dec 15, 2004 2:54 pm (#186 of 334)
Oh, that's hilarious. I haven't read my US versions since I got the UK editions. I always thought it was strange for Percy to be in a tank top, but it hadn't crossed my mind that it could mean something else over there.
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Penny Lane. - Dec 25, 2004 12:00 pm (#187 of 334)
So sweater vests are nerdy?
I never even noticed the "tank top" in my UK editions. That goes to show how well I read.
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septentrion - Jan 2, 2005 6:31 am (#188 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I'm rereading GoF and I came across the incantation for the Dark Mark : Morsmordre.
That's another word related to Voldemort which sounds french. If it wasn't for Madame Maxime, I'd think Jo has something against us ! *only joking*
Back to the incantation : it can be divided in two words :
- mors = bit (the thing you put in the mouth of a horse to ride it). "Mors" is also a conjugated form of the word "mordre", ie to bite
-mordre = to bite.
Literally, it could be translated as "bitbite".I've wondered why Jo chose that word for the incantation to conjure the Dark Mark. Does it have something to see with the fact that a snake is protruding from the mouth of the skull, which can be seen as a skull biting a snake ?
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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 9:25 am (#189 of 334)
Yes, sweater vests are nerdy. The only 'person' I know who can pull them off well is Alex P. Keaton. But then again, he was quite a nerd (oh, how I love Michael J. Fox!) Oh, actually didn't Carlton on Fresh Prince wear sweater vests as well? Also a Nerd.
OH, wait Chandler and Ross on Friends wore sweater vest (they both looked dumb in them, I think they were going for the nerd look there too).
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 11:41 am (#190 of 334)
Septentrion, I have always wondered about that too! Could it have something to do with the saying "prendre le mors aux dents" (to take the bit between its teeth, that is to say "to bite the bit")?
The Dark Mark inspired fear and even panic to people who saw it during the first war and "to take the bit between its teeth" (at least in French) means to bolt, especially when the horse/people is frightened. Does that make sense?
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septentrion - Jan 2, 2005 12:29 pm (#191 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't know...the Mark, IMO, has two purposes : it's a sign for recognition, aknowledgement, and it's supposed to frighten people. But why this reference to biting ? I should put it on the "what would youask JKR" thread.
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Dr Filibuster - Jan 2, 2005 2:55 pm (#192 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Reading "Morsmordre" brings me out in a cold sweat. I couldn't believe it when I first read it. how could Jo Rowling use a word like that?
Maybe it's a coincidence, but it sounds too much like "moors murders". These were horrific child murders commited by Bradey and Hindley in the 1960's and still get mentioned on the news to this day.
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timrew - Jan 2, 2005 2:58 pm (#193 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I read once that a loose translation of 'Morsmordre' could be 'Eats Death', which, when applied to the Death-eaters makes more sense......
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 4:11 pm (#194 of 334)
It would definitely make sense but it should be written "Mortmordre" then (mort = death, mordre = to bite). Hmmm... Was that translation given by JKR?
About the "to take the bit between its teeth" meaning, I have searched a little about it and it can mean both "to fly off the handle" and " to act at once" so it would fit rather well.
I think the reference to biting, in the saying, is that it is an image of the horse biting the bit and hence the bit doesn't work anymore. In a way, when the DE saw the mark, they were also "ready to bite" who was on their way. Does it make sense?
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schoff - Jan 2, 2005 5:19 pm (#195 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
"Mordre" sounds like "murder" to me.
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 11:09 pm (#196 of 334)
I've just remembered that, in Latin, "mors" means death or what gives death, destruction. So, if it is half Latin (mors), half French (mordre = to bite), it could well mean: "to bite death" or/and "to bite to give death".
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septentrion - Jan 3, 2005 2:30 am (#197 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
and when you eat you bite, which leads to "mordre"...
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Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2005 6:14 pm (#198 of 334)
Jumping in on this little discussion a full week later--that's what's so clever about Madame Author, she's able to give us double and triple entendres on words and names by playing a little loose with French, English and Latin.
All the lovely meanings and derivations for "morsmordre" work in this instance--there are layers of meaning. I just wonder if another might be that the dark mark was like getting bitten by Voldemort?
Ciao. Barb
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Maiden - Jan 12, 2005 4:46 am (#199 of 334)
Copied from the thread on wands: In my Danish translation of PS, it says that Harrys and Voldemorts wands share the double horn of a chimera. There is no mention of Phoenix feather what so ever. When the incident is retold during the weighing of the wands in GoF, it now says there are both a feather and the chimera horn in the wand. Seems a bit crowded inside Harrys wand.
Answers to my post suggest that nobody else heard about a chimera horn. Why would a translator come up with something like that?
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Mare - Jan 12, 2005 5:45 am (#200 of 334)
Good question.
The book was probably first translated when book 2 wasn't out yet. The translator obviously thought it wasn't such an important detail.
I hope they fix it in a new edition though, it's just plain stupid.
But as to why he did it? No clue. Maybe he thought a chimera was better known?
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Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think I remember having read about Hermione's boggart in my french version too, but like Neldoreth and Tomoé, I just use my french version for some precisions.
I've noticed a difference between french and english in CoS : when Ron and Harry can't get through the barrier, Ron explains to Harry that his parents don't need the car to go back home because they can apparate. This paragraph about apparating is missing in the french book. On some other places, the translator has put some good puns (cochon d'Inde - cochon-dinde in PoA).
About Voldemort's name, I think I've already posted it somewhere but I'll put it here again :
vol = flight or robbery
de = from or of
mort = death or dead
that name can have 6 meanings in English. How clever of JKR !
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septentrion - Jul 7, 2004 12:49 am (#152 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
My french version of PoA (pocket size) has Hermione's boggart.
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Neldoreth - Jul 7, 2004 6:57 am (#153 of 334)
Gryffindor girl!
I havent read all this thread, so you'll excuse me if this has already been mentionned: I just found a very interesting link where HP-Names from different languages are enlisted.
Harry Potter International
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haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 8:56 am (#154 of 334)
Neldoreth - that was a neat link!
I noticed that "Harry Potter" was left intact.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 14, 2004 2:16 am (#155 of 334)
Edited by Jul 14, 2004 2:18 am
My english version of CoS doesn't have that paragraph about apparating.... That's weird... Or am I just senile?
Edit: I checked it, and I was right - I don't have that paragraph. Is it something that has been added in later editions?
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septentrion - Jul 14, 2004 5:13 am (#156 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
this paragraph is in the american edition, in chapter "the whomping willow", p 69 paperback : "they don't need the car !" said Ron impatiently. "They know how to Apparate ! You know, just vanish and reappear at home !" This is when Ron and Harry decided to use the flying car to get to Hogwarts.
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Lars Smedberg - Jul 14, 2004 10:47 am (#157 of 334)
Well, I can't find it in the British "Adult cover" paperback - and neither in the Swedish translation, which is based on the British version.
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septentrion - Jul 14, 2004 10:52 am (#158 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
and it isn't in the french version either.
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Tomoé - Jul 14, 2004 5:48 pm (#159 of 334)
Back in business
It's not in my UK hardcover edition either.
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Erikson - Jul 31, 2004 12:31 pm (#160 of 334)
I'm from Romania and here are some words: Voldemort--Cap-de-Mort(it means Head of a Dead) Padfoot-Amprenta Moony-Lunaticul(luna=moon) Prongs-Corn Wormtail-Sobo(sobolan=rat) Boggart-Bong
and so on these were the most important I think. I have no ideea how are they going to translate HBP because I didn't find in the books a term for half-blood only for pure-blood(sange pur)
But they made a great job translating and I'm happy about it
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Ann - Aug 6, 2004 6:50 am (#161 of 334)
Those of you reading HP in languages other than English might want to know that Weasley by Nature has just posted a note on the Meaning of the Prophecy thread suggesting that you might help us. In English, the Prophecy is very unclear:
"either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives."
If your translation is any clearer, you might want to post your views on the Prophecy thread. It would be even more valuable if there is any evidence that Rowling approved the translations.
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Lina - Aug 22, 2004 2:25 pm (#162 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I'm not sure that anybody is interested, but I have decided to give you some croatian...
I need to say that what I find the advantage of the HP series is that, apart from the interesting action, the language is very simple. Not boring simple but let me say that I have managed to read the books in english without using the dictionary. So it means that the words used in the book are more the common ones than the complicated ones. That makes the children who don't like to read books to start reading and this is the characteristic that I appreciate very much since I have one of those children. And I have to say that the croatian translator has done a great work. The books are just as interesting and as readable as in english.
So, i took a look at the link mentioned above and used the table to give you some of the words in croatian. The names of people are not changed at all, except Hermione becomes Hermiona but no significant changes to the names are made. The names of some animals do change, so here you are:
One more thing: to see the special characters correctly, you have to do: wiew --> Encoding --> Central European (windows)
English Croatian
Beater goniè
Bludger maljac
Boggart bauk
Buckbeak Kljunoslav
Chaser lovac/lovica
Crookshanks Krivonja
Daily Prophet Dnevni prorok
Death Eater smrtonoša
Dementor dementor
Diagon Alley Zakutna ulica
Fang Oènjak
The Fat Lady Debela dama
Firebolt Vatrena munja
Floo powder letiprah
Flourish & Blotts Krasopis i bugaèica
Fluffy Bundy
Howler urlojav
Keeper vratar
Knockturn Alley Ulica Nokturno
The Leaky Cauldron Šuplji kotliæ
The Marauder's Map Mapa za haranje
The Mirror of Erised ogledalo Erised
Moaning Myrtle Plaèljiva Myrtla
Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody Alastor Divljooki Moody
Moony Lunac
Mudblood mutnjak/mutnjakuša
Muggles bezjaci
Nearly Headless Nick Gotovo bezglavi Nick
Padfoot Tihotap
Parseltongue parselust
Polyjuice Potion višesokovni napitak
Portkey Putokljuè
Privet Drive Kalinin prilaz
Prongs Parožak
Quaffle balun
Quidditch metloboj
Scabbers Šugonja
Seeker tragaè
The Golden Snitch zlatna zvrèka
The Sorting Hat Razredbeni klobuk
The Triwizard Tournament Tromagijski turnir
The Whomping Willow Napadaèka vrba
Wormtail Crvorep
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Little Ginny - Sep 4, 2004 5:20 am (#163 of 334)
I have not read the Prophecy in German yet, but I doubt that it would be any help to anybody. I don't know whether JKR's German is fluent, but I don't think she'd like the German translation, at least not of the first three books. Apart from the fact that I do not like the writing style of the translator, which is just my personal opinion and therefore doesn't count, I was shocked to see that he mixed up several words. For example, the German reader doesn't know that Voldemorts wand was made of yew, for the translator read it either as yes or as phew. Also, the German reader thinks that Mr Weasley is interested in collecting ploughs, not plugs, and other things like that. But to top it all, the translator completely restructured one of the key chapters in PoA (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs), that is, he left out paragraphs or rearranged them, or wrote some new things in between. (If you are interested in a new translation of that chapter, you can mail me. my translation sounds a bit weird, since I'm not used to translating, but at least everything is in the right order. you'll find my adress if you click on my avatar.)
Sorry to write so much, but this had to be said.
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schoff - Sep 4, 2004 9:33 pm (#164 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 3, 2004 4:44 pm
Since the and obstacles guarding the Sorceror's (or Philosopher's) Stone, I've been thinking that maybe the sphynix's song might have something to do with the books? Has this been brought up before? If it has, please direct me in the right direction, this Lexicon is gigantic!
I hope you see this here, Jessalyn, since your thread was closed and I couldn't respond. I'm wondering if you are asking how the Sphynx's riddle was translated into other languages. We did discuss this a long time ago, but I dug up some old posts. Maybe some others will add other languages:
Miss Murderess: [Portuguese]
"Pensa no que é essencial à vida; que apesar de forte nunca te intimida; mais a palavrinha bem antes do nome, de Ginny, de Cho e de Hermione; e que uma artimanha vai finalizar; um bicho que não quererias beijar"
"Think in what is essencial to life; that although strong, never intimidates you (air = "ar"); plus de little word before de name, of Ginny, Cho and Hermione ("a" (used before feminine names)); and that a trick will end (trick = artimanha --> "nha"); a creature that you wouldn't want to kiss"
ar + a + nha = "aranha" = spider
Marie L.: [Russian]
"Moj pervij slog provornej vseh po pravu- On ochenj bistr na ruku, nogu i raspravu; Vtoroj moj slog estj plod okruzhnosti reshenij- Eje s diametrom zakonnih otnoshenij. Moj tretij slog - abstraktno nazvannij muzhchina- Ni cveta kozhi, ni familii, ni china. Slozhiv ih vmeste, cusjestvo ti obrazuesh, Kakoe ti skorej umresh, chem poceluesh."
"My first syllable is known to be the swiftest - It is very fast on hand, foot and for reprisal(quick=skor); My second syllable is a result of circumference solutions - Its ratio with diameter(pi). My third syllable - an abstractly called man - No skin colour, no surname, no rank(he=on). Put them together, and you'll form a creature, which you would rather die than kiss."
skor+pi+on="skorpion", meaning, yes, you've guessed it - scorpion.
Marè: [Dutch]
Denk aan iemand die van vermommingen leeft, Die altijd moet liegen en geheimen doorgeeft.
Wat draaglijk slecht maakt en doenlijk tot straf, Trek je vervolgens van dat eerste woord af.
Geef me als laatste de klank die je hoort, Als je meer maakt van één naam of één woord.
Voeg die drie dingen samen en zeg me dan gauw, welk schepsel je niet graag een zoen geven zou.
Think of some-one who lives from disguises, who always has to lie and passes on secrets (spion = spy)
What makes tolerable into bad en practicable into a punishment, you distract from that first word. ( on = un, as in untolerable)
Give me as last the sound you here, when you make more from one name or one word. (in dutch the plural for a lot of words are made by adding -en, which sounds as the letter N)
Put these three together and tell me quick, what creature you wouldn't want to kiss. (spion - on + n = spin. And a spin is a spider)
Nine: [French]
OK, the sphinx riddle in French: "D'abord, pense au premier de ce qu'il faut apprendre/Lorsque l'on ne sait rien a l'age le plus tendre." means "first, think of what one must learn, when one knows nothing, at the age the most...[I can't translate "tendre". Maybe "tender", meaning young?]" That's the alphabet, specifically the letter "A".
The next lines are "Ensuite, dis-moi donc ce que fait par naissance/ Celui qui, au palais, a elu residence." That translates to "then, tell me this that made by birth, it is he who, in a palace, has elevated residence." The clue means ruling king, or "rois regne".
The final couplet (except for the main clue) is "Enfin, pour decouvrir la derniere donnee/Il suffit de la prendre a la fin de l'annee." That translates to "Finally, to discover the end of the given, it suffices to take from the end of the year." This is a clue like the second clue of the English version ("middle of middle and the end of the end"), so the key here is "nee"
And the last two lines are "Tu connaitras ainsi la creature immonde/ Que tu n'embrasserais vraiment pour rien au monde." That means "Then [after you finish the clues] you will know the creature that you would truly never embrace for anything in the world. The answer is "A-reigne-nee" or "Araignee", which means spider, so they managed to keep the answer the same.
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Little Ginny - Sep 5, 2004 5:02 am (#165 of 334)
Okay, the Sphinx riddle in German:
Erst denk an den Menschen, der immer lügt, der Geheimnisse sucht und damit betrügt, doch um das Ganze nicht zu verwässern, nimm von dem Wort nur die ersten drei Lettern.
Nun denk an das Doppelte des Gewinns, den Anfang vom Nichts und die Mitte des Sinns.
Und schließlich ein Laut, ein Wörtchen nicht ganz, das du auch jetzt von dir selbst hören kannst.
Nun füg sie zusammen, denn dann wirst du wissen, welches Geschöpf du niemals willst küssen.
First think of person who always lies, who searches secrets and betrays with them, but in order not to water down the whole thing, take from this word only the first three letters.(Spion= spy; first three letters SPI)
Now think about the double of the winning (German: der Gewinn), the beginning of nothing (German: das Nichts) and the middle of sense (German: der Sinn; but here as genitive: des Sinns).(N)
And finally a sound, not really a little word, which at the moment you will hear from yourself as well. (NE, a little word used in colloquial speech for "no", also sometimes used like "isn't it?")
Now put them together, for then you will know which creature you’ll never want to kiss. (SPI+N+NE= SPINNE= SPIDER, so it's the same as in English)
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schoff - Sep 6, 2004 1:40 pm (#166 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Thanks, Little Ginny! I really have to brush up on my German! I barely recognized any words.
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kimio beach - Sep 8, 2004 7:48 pm (#167 of 334)
This was originally on the Petunia thread but someone suggested that I post it here as well. The post has subsequently sparked some debate as to whether translations of the HP books into other languages are reliable and if their contents can be considered "canon" evidence. What do you all think?
here is the original post:
Hello everyone, this is my first ever post, but have been lurking here for quite some time. And I finally made it through the Petunia thread, it took me a couple days!
I would like to add some info about the age-old question, is Petunia older or younger than Lily. I live in Japan and speak Japanese. In the Japanese language, there is no word for "sister". There are two separate words for "older sister" (in Japanese, the word is a-ne) and "younger sister" (imo-to) and you must specify which one when writing/speaking the language.
After reading the endless and unresolved debate on this thread, I thought that I would find out for you. (I read all the HP books in English, by the way) I popped into a Japanese bookstore and looked at the Japanese translated edition of Philosopher's Stone. drumroll... Petunia is the OLDER sister and Lily is the younger sister. Of course, we don't know how many years older though...
So, if the translated edition of the HP books can be considered canon, I think it is safe to say that Petunia is older.
Cheers!
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Tomoé - Sep 8, 2004 10:29 pm (#168 of 334)
Back in business
As I said over the Petunia thread, I sent a mail to Mrs Matsuoka (the Japanese translator) and ask her if she asked Jo about the ane / imoto translation or if she figured this out by herself. If I get an answer, I'll put it in both thread.
Kimio Beach -> Tomoe, do you speak Japanese too? Did you read the HP books in English or Japanese? Did you notice any other discrepancies?
I speak very little Japanese, I can't get pass the one clause sentences, thinking my sentences in reverse get me headaches. I'm a much better reader though, but I didn't read HP in Japanese (I'm an "original version" freak ^_~). Anyway, I was thinking to buy FB in Japanese to do some practice. Therefore, I wrote to Mrs Matsuoka in English, there an English section on the publisher website et Mrs Matsuoka should know English as she tralate it. ^_^
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haymoni - Sep 16, 2004 10:04 am (#169 of 334)
I saw a bumper sticker on a car yesterday - I think I've remembered it correctly. Thought you all might appreciate it.
"English does not BORROW from other languages.
Instead, English stalks other languages into dark alleys,
Beats them up and takes their loose grammar."
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caro - Sep 16, 2004 11:08 am (#170 of 334)
In the spanish versions of the books most of the names don't change. The only names that change are Tom Marvolo Riddle to Tom Sorvolo Ryddle, this way the letters can form "Soy Lord Voldemort". Mad eye Moody changes to Ojoloco Moody (Ojo=eye, loco=mad) and Moaning Myrtle has been changed to Myrtle la llorona (llorona=moaning)
Sorry if this has been said already but I haven't read the whole thread
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Tomoé - Sep 16, 2004 9:00 pm (#171 of 334)
Back in business
LOL haymoni! ^_^
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 18, 2004 8:56 pm (#172 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Oh Haymoni that is a classic, may I spread that one around?
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haymoni - Sep 21, 2004 7:47 am (#173 of 334)
Spread away!
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septentrion - Oct 9, 2004 6:29 am (#174 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I've found something weird in QA : in the 8th chapter, it's spoken about a play written by a french man Malécrit (Badwritten) : hélas, j'ai transfiguré mes pieds (alas, I've transfigured my feet). In the french version of QA, this french words have been transformed in la triste métamorphose de mes pauvres pieds by Forbien Narré (or the sad transformation of my poor feet by Verywell Told). I explain it by the fact that "transfiguration" has been translated by "métamorphose" since the 1st book but it could have been simplier. Weird I say.
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Tomoé - Oct 9, 2004 7:48 am (#175 of 334)
Back in business
Jo'S title sounds better, lots of "ay" (é/ai/es/ed), a good alternance of soft and hard consonants, I like the rythm of the title. Hélas, j'ai métamorphosé mes pieds have less hard consonants, but still had a good rythm. La triste métamorphose de mes pauvres pieds sounds flat.
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fortuna major - Oct 24, 2004 2:59 pm (#176 of 334)
I searched this thread but didn't see this addressed, please point me to the appropriate posts if I am mistaken.
Someone on the Marietta Edgecomb thread posted that in the Swedish translation, "sneak" was translated as "skvallerbytta" for "tattle-tale." He mentioned that this was quite a long word to fit on someone's face. It made me curious to find out other ways it was translated. Anyone want to post about their specific translation?
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Little Ginny - Oct 25, 2004 8:21 am (#177 of 334)
In German it's translated as "Petze", I think, which has pretty much the same meaning as "sneak" and fits very well into somebody's face.
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septentrion - Nov 3, 2004 3:23 am (#178 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I'll answer for the french version as soon as I buy the not yet released paperback french version of OoTP.
I've just read a book which takes place in Middle-Ages and see the word "grimaud". After an internet research, I found this : it is a despising word for scholars of lower class. Later, it meant a bad author. So not only "Grimmauld" makes a great pun but it's also near of a real word. I know the meaning of "grimaud" has nothing to do with HP (and certainly not with JKR) but I find it funny to see this "real" word !
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 4:23 am (#179 of 334)
You're right Septentrion! Which reminds me of another meaning for Grimaud: it was the name of Athos' servant in The Three Musqueteers. On other threads, there were parallels drawn between some characters of The Three Musketeers and HP characters. I find this funny because Grimaud is a very secret and silent person, used to obey to signs Athos made, not words, and Grimmauld place is also a very secret place that Harry didn't find thanks to words but signs (DD's words on a paper).
Besides, I've searched a little and grimaud comes from an old word (Grima) for mask: appropriate for a hidden place, isn't it?
But this should maybe belong to the "What's in a name?" thread. May I quote you if I post that there?
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septentrion - Nov 3, 2004 5:15 am (#180 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
of course you can quote me ! Well I have never read the what's in a name thread, maybe I should go there. BTW, isn't Grima Wormtongue's real name in the LotR ?
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 9:35 am (#181 of 334)
It is! What a perfect name for someone who hid his true loyalty for years, isn't it?
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prof sprout - Nov 11, 2004 3:59 pm (#182 of 334)
I was rereading my Spanish version of PS/SS and I came across the scene with the Swish and Flick, and in the book they use two different words for swish and flick, but a sentence later they translate the sentence about switching the "s" and the "f" using those same letters but the two words they used to translate Swish and flick didn't have an S or an F in it. I thought it was funny, You would have thought by the 30th printing they would have fixed it.
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Amilia Smith - Dec 15, 2004 11:56 am (#183 of 334)
Hi! I have just discovered this thread, and have really enjoyed reading through all of the posts. However, the trouble with playing catchup is that I find I want to reply to posts made over a year ago. :-) So bear with me for a moment. Waayy back when, VeronikaG was talking about the Norwegian translations of some of the various characters. About Justin Finch-Fletchley she said:
The Norwegian translator must have thought his English name was boring, because he named him Julius Finkenfjær. And I can assure you, that is not an ordinary Norwegian name. Fink is a little bird, very colorful, fjær means feathers. He was named this in the first book, when all we knew was that he was sorted into Hufflepuff, so it has nothing to do with his personality.
To this, I wanted to say that it looks to me that the translator just translated the words directly into Norwegian. In English, a finch is also a small, brightly colored bird (for example, a goldfinch is bright yellow with black markings). Also, fletchley has something to do with feathers. A fletcher was someone who made arrows. Fletchings are the feathers on an arrow. And to fletch means to feather. (Can you tell I looked this up in my dictionary to make sure I was right?)
Now, to change the subject completely, I would like to share an annedote with you concerning the differences between the British and American "translations." I recently bought Harry Potter on CD with Stephen Fry reading (ie, the British version). I was feeling very smug that I had no problem understanding what philosophers, jumpers, torches, or revision charts were. Then, in CoS, Percy comes down to breakfast at the Burrow completely dressed, with his prefect badge pinned to his tank-top. I did a double take. I listened to that track again. Yes indeed, Percy was wearing a tank-top. The picture of Percy in a wife-beater had me chuckling all the way home. Once I got home, I looked up the reference in my American version. Apparently, to Brits, a tank-top is a sweater vest. In America, a tank-top is a sleeveless undershirt. You would not wear it outside your clothes unless you were going to the gym, or the weather was really hot and you lived in a very downscale neighborhood.
Mills.
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Dr Filibuster - Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm (#184 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
A young man who wears a tank top conjures up a certain image in Britain; a definate nerd!
What was Percy wearing on the other side of the Atlantic that day?
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I Am Used Vlad - Dec 15, 2004 2:47 pm (#185 of 334)
I Am Almighty!
He's wearing a sweater vest in the US version. And don't worry, Sue, the nerdiness was not lost in translation.
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Eponine - Dec 15, 2004 2:54 pm (#186 of 334)
Oh, that's hilarious. I haven't read my US versions since I got the UK editions. I always thought it was strange for Percy to be in a tank top, but it hadn't crossed my mind that it could mean something else over there.
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Penny Lane. - Dec 25, 2004 12:00 pm (#187 of 334)
So sweater vests are nerdy?
I never even noticed the "tank top" in my UK editions. That goes to show how well I read.
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septentrion - Jan 2, 2005 6:31 am (#188 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I'm rereading GoF and I came across the incantation for the Dark Mark : Morsmordre.
That's another word related to Voldemort which sounds french. If it wasn't for Madame Maxime, I'd think Jo has something against us ! *only joking*
Back to the incantation : it can be divided in two words :
- mors = bit (the thing you put in the mouth of a horse to ride it). "Mors" is also a conjugated form of the word "mordre", ie to bite
-mordre = to bite.
Literally, it could be translated as "bitbite".I've wondered why Jo chose that word for the incantation to conjure the Dark Mark. Does it have something to see with the fact that a snake is protruding from the mouth of the skull, which can be seen as a skull biting a snake ?
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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 9:25 am (#189 of 334)
Yes, sweater vests are nerdy. The only 'person' I know who can pull them off well is Alex P. Keaton. But then again, he was quite a nerd (oh, how I love Michael J. Fox!) Oh, actually didn't Carlton on Fresh Prince wear sweater vests as well? Also a Nerd.
OH, wait Chandler and Ross on Friends wore sweater vest (they both looked dumb in them, I think they were going for the nerd look there too).
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 11:41 am (#190 of 334)
Septentrion, I have always wondered about that too! Could it have something to do with the saying "prendre le mors aux dents" (to take the bit between its teeth, that is to say "to bite the bit")?
The Dark Mark inspired fear and even panic to people who saw it during the first war and "to take the bit between its teeth" (at least in French) means to bolt, especially when the horse/people is frightened. Does that make sense?
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septentrion - Jan 2, 2005 12:29 pm (#191 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't know...the Mark, IMO, has two purposes : it's a sign for recognition, aknowledgement, and it's supposed to frighten people. But why this reference to biting ? I should put it on the "what would youask JKR" thread.
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Dr Filibuster - Jan 2, 2005 2:55 pm (#192 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Reading "Morsmordre" brings me out in a cold sweat. I couldn't believe it when I first read it. how could Jo Rowling use a word like that?
Maybe it's a coincidence, but it sounds too much like "moors murders". These were horrific child murders commited by Bradey and Hindley in the 1960's and still get mentioned on the news to this day.
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timrew - Jan 2, 2005 2:58 pm (#193 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I read once that a loose translation of 'Morsmordre' could be 'Eats Death', which, when applied to the Death-eaters makes more sense......
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 4:11 pm (#194 of 334)
It would definitely make sense but it should be written "Mortmordre" then (mort = death, mordre = to bite). Hmmm... Was that translation given by JKR?
About the "to take the bit between its teeth" meaning, I have searched a little about it and it can mean both "to fly off the handle" and " to act at once" so it would fit rather well.
I think the reference to biting, in the saying, is that it is an image of the horse biting the bit and hence the bit doesn't work anymore. In a way, when the DE saw the mark, they were also "ready to bite" who was on their way. Does it make sense?
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schoff - Jan 2, 2005 5:19 pm (#195 of 334)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
"Mordre" sounds like "murder" to me.
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 11:09 pm (#196 of 334)
I've just remembered that, in Latin, "mors" means death or what gives death, destruction. So, if it is half Latin (mors), half French (mordre = to bite), it could well mean: "to bite death" or/and "to bite to give death".
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septentrion - Jan 3, 2005 2:30 am (#197 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
and when you eat you bite, which leads to "mordre"...
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Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2005 6:14 pm (#198 of 334)
Jumping in on this little discussion a full week later--that's what's so clever about Madame Author, she's able to give us double and triple entendres on words and names by playing a little loose with French, English and Latin.
All the lovely meanings and derivations for "morsmordre" work in this instance--there are layers of meaning. I just wonder if another might be that the dark mark was like getting bitten by Voldemort?
Ciao. Barb
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Maiden - Jan 12, 2005 4:46 am (#199 of 334)
Copied from the thread on wands: In my Danish translation of PS, it says that Harrys and Voldemorts wands share the double horn of a chimera. There is no mention of Phoenix feather what so ever. When the incident is retold during the weighing of the wands in GoF, it now says there are both a feather and the chimera horn in the wand. Seems a bit crowded inside Harrys wand.
Answers to my post suggest that nobody else heard about a chimera horn. Why would a translator come up with something like that?
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Mare - Jan 12, 2005 5:45 am (#200 of 334)
Good question.
The book was probably first translated when book 2 wasn't out yet. The translator obviously thought it wasn't such an important detail.
I hope they fix it in a new edition though, it's just plain stupid.
But as to why he did it? No clue. Maybe he thought a chimera was better known?
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 201 to 250)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:56 am
septentrion - Jan 12, 2005 5:53 am (#201 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
If we did a poll about : "what do you know better ? Chimera or phoenix ?" Do you think we'd have a better result for one or the other ? I doubt it. That change is just, as you said Marè, plain stupid.
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Tomoé - Jan 12, 2005 9:14 am (#202 of 334)
Back in business
I suppose they never expected Harry Potter to become ... well ... Harry Potter. It was just a children book and no one was supposed to notice the change and the phoenix wasn't supposed to come back in the plot. The translator obviously underestimate Jo. It's still plain stupid nevertheless.
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Snuffles - Jan 13, 2005 2:34 am (#203 of 334)
Olivia
Lol! They obviously never expected a Forum like this where every little thing is scrutinized! There is no place to hide for mistakes as Jo found out!
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stranger - Feb 2, 2005 5:36 am (#204 of 334)
Some Hungarian translations:
Hogwarts - Roxfort
Hogsmeade - Roxmort
Godric Gryffindor - Griffendél Godrik
Helga Hufflepuff - Hugrabug Helga
Rowena Ravenclaw - Hollóháti Hedvig - "Hollóháti" means "raven's back" and not claw.
Salazar Slytherin - Mardekár Malazár
Severus Snape - Perselus Piton - Piton is Phyton in Hungarian.
Minerva McGonagall - Minerva McGalagony - Galagonya is hawthorn in H.
Quirrell - Mógus - As Quirrell cames from squirrel, Mógus cames from mókus (Hungarian translation of squirrel
Alastor Moody - Alastor Mordon - double 'o' is unknown in H.
Rita Skeeter - Rita Vitrol - Vitriolos is vitriolic in H.
Barty Crouch - Barty Kupor - simple translation
Diagon Alley - Abszol út - abszolút means absolute in H.
There is a little bit confusion in the ordering of the names. In Hungarian lastname cames first and then the firstname. I find that the names with foreign firstname keeps the English ordering and only the housefounders names are changed.
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septentrion - Feb 2, 2005 8:49 am (#205 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Rita Skeeter - Rita Vitrol - Vitriolos is vitriolic in H.
That's a good translation to me
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Ponine - Mar 4, 2005 6:32 am (#206 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I am DELIGHTED to find this thread! As an aspiring translator/writer myself, I have come to the conclusion that apart from subtitling 8 mile with Eminem (way too much slang and rhyme to ever come out right.), Harry Potter must be painfully challenging to translate, more so, of course, as they are immmensely popular. I for one have never even bothered to read more than the first one in Norwegian, and to be honest, I would never have read any more Harry Potter if it had not been for the fact that my colleague who lent me the books convinced me to try the CoS which was in English. I find the Norwegian translation is more causal, meandering and full of slang and somewhat immature, unnecessary changes to names, supposedly reflecting their character. of course, I can't find my book, so I will find it and then present you with my most frustrating names and creatures.
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Lina - Mar 10, 2005 7:08 am (#207 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Ponine: Harry Potter must be painfully challenging to translate
It most definitely is. Especially not knowing what is going to happen in next books. For example, when Prof. Grubby Plank appeared in the CoS, she was translated as a he professor because there was no way for the translator to know her gender. Reading here about some other translations, I really need to say how I find the Croatian translator Zlatko Crnkovic great. I think he did a good job. The only thing I would have done differently is translating the mirror of Esired in Croatian. I don't see the need to keep the English version for it.
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prof sprout - Mar 11, 2005 10:33 am (#208 of 334)
Apparently in the early versions on the Spanish translations the mirror was kept as Erised along with the phrase on the mirror. However, I have like the 30 somthingth edition of the Spanish text and they have re translated it to oesod which is the backwards word for desire in Spanish. They also translated the phrase to be backwards translation. So maybe in new versions of the text it will be corrected.
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Miriam Huber - May 8, 2005 1:11 pm (#209 of 334)
This is not exactly about translation, more about non-translation, so to speak -- a question of a non-native speaker who reads HP in English: What is the difference between a "witch" and a "hag"? In German, there is only the word "Hexe", but to me it seems that "hag" has quite a wilder, rather negative meaning? Can someone help me?
P.S. I had a similar question concerning Ron´s question "Can I see Uranus too, Lavender?" some time ago (many thanks again for the explanation what was funny about that line!). Perhaps we could open a thread like: "understandig English expressions turning up in HP" -- or better name it: "emproove your English" (bowing to Fleur Delacour)?
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haymoni - May 8, 2005 1:27 pm (#210 of 334)
In the British version of the books, what does Neville say in the Hogs Head about Harry's wonderous deeds?
In my American version he says (I can't recall the exact words.) something like: "Yeah, and in our first year he went after that Saucerer's Stone" - Hermione corrects him with "Sorcerer's Stone".
In the British version, does he say "Phospherous" instead of "Philosopher's" - Just curious.
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azi - May 8, 2005 1:31 pm (#211 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Neville says 'Philological Stone'.
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Little Ginny - May 8, 2005 1:46 pm (#212 of 334)
Miriam, I faced the same problem when I was trying to translate "hag" and knew I wouldn't want to use "Hexe". In the end, I decided to use "Zankteufelin" as a German translation for "hag". I'm not even sure whether this really exists in German, but I found it somehow fitting. "zankhexe" exists, I think, but I thought it was too near "Hexe".
I understand what you mean about "uranus". it took me ages to understand... I don't think the translator even noticed, but I read the book in English, so I don't mind. I bet there are loads more things like that in Harry Potter, which we "Krauts" simply don't get... :-)
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 5:15 am (#213 of 334)
Oh yeah, Little Ginny, how right you are! Just a couple of days ago, I finally looked up "ghoul", and my English-German lexicon translated: "Ghul". Now, I am not THAT bad at my native tongue, but what is a german "Ghul"? Finally, I asked an English-English dictionary and I can imagine what they mean by their explanation, even if I don´t know how I would call such thing in German... Do you know how they translated "ghoul" in the German versions of HP? I never read them and I always find the German terms quite ridiculous if I meet them somewhere -- like "Todesser" for "deatheater"! It is, of course, quite a literal translation, but I don´t find it at all frightening! Well, perhaps it is just a matter of what you are accustomed to. Only problem is: If I talk to somebody about HP, I am lacking not only the German terms but am lapsing again and again into English ...
P.S. Do you use HP for translation exercices? At the university?
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Cornelia - May 9, 2005 5:56 am (#214 of 334)
They write "Ghul" and "sabberhexe" (for hag).
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Little Ginny - May 9, 2005 9:27 am (#215 of 334)
I do indeed use HP for translation exercise, but not for university, but just for private practicing. I began when I listened to the German audio book (I love the way Rufus Beck reads it, even though the translation is terrible) when I suddenly noticed that there was something wrong with the crucial chapter of PoA. I thought it was just me being too tired to listen properly, but then I checked with a friend's German version and noticed that the translator had completely destroyed chapter 18, by reorganizing the paragraphs, leaving out half of the text and writing new linking sentences, so that I decided to re-translate that chapter in order to illustrate to my friend how terrible the translation is, and now it has become a sort of habit, that when I feel I might need some practice I just translate a page or two of HP- just for my own private amusement.
Oh, and I do so understand what you say about talking with German readers about HP. It's like- "Aren't those Blast-Ended Skrewts awful?"- "The what?" "Oh, you know, the creatures Hagrid keeps!"- "Ah, you mean 'knallrümpfige Kröter'"- and it goes on like this forever.
But the second worst thing- apart from the re-writing of chapters- is that the translator doesn't know the vocabulary. For example, he translated "plug" as "Pflug" ("Pflug" would be plough, btw) and "Yew" as "Ja".
Can you tell that I'm not a big fan of the German translation? I prefer the original version by far, and only even know about the translation because of the German audio books
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 11:11 am (#216 of 334)
Thanks for the translations, Cornelia! But when Hermione hisses "you terrible old hag" about Umbridge, I don´t picture Umbridge as a "Sabberhexe". She is not senile, she is twisted, horrible, vicious! ... Oh, "Pflug" for "plug", that´s stupid. What for heavens sake is the diagram in Mr. Weasley´s office to show in German if it shows "how to wire a plug"; is it about electricity-based farming or what???
By the way, while I have never read the German version, I did read some HP-books in French (to improve my French. I know, you shouldn´t read translations to do that, but as I was constantly reading HP anyway, I thought: why not do it in French?). It was there that I realized that JKR´s humor is not the same when translated. AND they skipped some paragraphs in the French version, too. I noticed for example that, in PoA at Flourish and Blotts, the sentence about the "invisible books of invisibility" was missing. Why in the name of Merlin did they leave it out???
I really don´t like translators who think they are cleverer than the authors. I am just doing some "working translations" of french philosophical text and I my greatest fear really is to confuse or alter the line of thoughts of the original text.
By the way, what would you as a translator do about that uranus sentence, Little Ginny? (just curious...)
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Detail Seeker - May 9, 2005 12:08 pm (#217 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
If you ask me, the translation "Hexe" would be right for "hag", the word being derived from the old high german (althochdeutschen) "hagahazusa" via some steps. "haga" is translated as "Waldfrau" (woman from the forest) and "hazusa" is a participial form of "hatan" "hassen, feindselig sein" ("hate"). A "hagazusa" is so a "feindselige, hassende Waldfrau". Another theory is, that Hexe is just derived from "hazusa", but this would not explain "hag". And as the english language preserves a lot of pre old high german forms, it might just be a different form of shortening "hagazusa". This derivation is made in Wolfgang Golther "Handbuch der germanischen Mythologie" citing other sources.
Interesting is , that here seems to be no old word for good magic people in the old mythology, which could be a better translation for "witch" but "Zauberin". "Dise" is normally a positive word, though in the "Edda" , the Voluspa speaks of "üble Disen fliegen" - but this is translated from a late nordic text, that has already seen a lot of christian interference - especially in connotations. "Dise would mean "weise Frau" ("wise woman"), though, to some extent, they are mixed with "wurd" or "volva, wala", predicting and enacting fate.
So, "Dise" or - how unpoetic - "Zauberin" would be a fitting translation for "witch".
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Little Ginny - May 9, 2005 12:43 pm (#218 of 334)
Thanks for the explanation, Detail Seeker! I wouldn't have thought there was such an interesting explanation for this "little translation problem". Still, I think "Zauberin", although etymological very fitting for "witch", would not be very practicable in a translation, it sounds just weird to me as a native speaker, or do you feel differently about it?
Miriam, I must confess that as to the Uranus question, I am at a loss... I can, however, not claim that I am a professional translator, nor do I think I shall be in the nearer future. At the moment I am (at the University) struggling to translate German texts into English, which is even more difficult for me than the other way round.
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Dr Filibuster - May 9, 2005 12:49 pm (#219 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Interesting. Detail Seeker, how old is old high German?
I think Rowling pictures Hags as a different type of being, not like witches at all. Hags eat children don't they? JKR seems to think so. There are some newsletters she wrote in the 1990's that have been added to the lexicon. She has an amusing advert from a hag.
I'm curious about a previous post (perhaps this should be on the pronunciation thread). Do Americans pronounce "saucerer's" and "sorceror's" differently? How would Hermione know to correct Neville? Or is that just part of the funny sentence?
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 12:58 pm (#220 of 334)
You are right, Dr Filibuster, I remember Harry seeing a hag ordering a plate of "raw liver" in the Leaky Cauldron. So, in JKR´s universe, hags evidently aren´t only evil witches, they are different beings. I will browse the lexicon for more. Your comment reminds me WHY I was wondering about hags in the first place! Is this witch/hag-difference only JKR´s thing -- then why doesn´t she ever explain it?
edit: WHY wasn´t I asking the Lexicon before?! There is an entry "hag" in The Bestiary -- quite illuminating!
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Detail Seeker - May 9, 2005 3:01 pm (#221 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Sue, old high german is a group of german dialects used from about 750 to about 1050 in the south-west area of Germany. (a german link explaining : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I did not find one in english ). So, there are some differences between old high german and old saxon, the now common name for a north-eastern group of dialects, which contains the dialects sspoken by the Angles and Saxons, that brought the basis of the language, that developed to the English language.
Miriam, as you mention the Lexicon, I had a search there and found some interesting explanations on the "Hagrid" page ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ). There, the word "hag" is derived from "haegtesse" (another contraction of "Hagehazusa"), too, but the word is translated as "hedge rider", "Zaunreiterin", which also was a word for a malevolent female magic being. The explanation given for the origin of "hedge rider" differ. While the Lexicon´s sources claim that this comes from beings crossing the border (hedge) between the magic world and the human world, while my sources claim, that they are women riding at night over the fences men built around their dwwellings, opening them for other evil folk. Odin´s rune song in the Havamal explicitly talks about "tunridur" riding, as he offers a spell as to turn them away.
Also, the translation between "Hagehazusa" and "Hegde rider" is not quite clear. The old german words for these beings are tunrida or zunrida, walriderske, icelandic tunridur. "Haag" being aword for a place protected by fences might explain the first part, and "hegen", the verb for "building fences round a place" might well be related to "to hedge" by a common ancestor, but I do not see an explanation for "rider" in "Haegtesse" or "Hagehazusa".
While both words seem refer to the same type of being, I doubt that hag is really contracted from "hedge rider"- but that is the interestingthing in ethymology: There may be many explanations and nobody knows, which theory is the best.
Little Ginny, I agree, "Zauberin" does not sound weird, a little bit clinical", devoid of any connotation. But there does not seem to be a good catch all word for a benevolent magic woman in german but "Dise". Bad, that is rather uncommon, so most readers would have their difficulties in understanding it.
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Little Ginny - May 10, 2005 7:57 am (#222 of 334)
About saucerer / sorcerer: I'm no expert, but I think that in American (in General American at least), the first "r" in "sorcerer" would be pronounced. The reason should be that General American is, unlike Received Pronounciation, a Rhotic variety of English, i.e., in General American, all "r"-sounds are clearly pronounced. (I had to take a class on Phonetics and Phonology of English last year, so that's where my knowledge about pronounciation comes from)
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 9:45 am (#223 of 334)
Librarian
Where does the 'saucerer' come from? I'm not getting the connection.
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septentrion - May 10, 2005 10:45 am (#224 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think "saucerer" is a pun with "sorcerer", and a Neville's mistake he made in the Hog's head while they were forming the DA.
About the french translation : I know some paragraphs are lacking but it's really good. The translator managed to create some very Jo-ish puns of his own (like Neville's cochon d'Inde * Guinea pig * looking like a cochon-dinde * pig-turkey * in transfiguration class). He also managed to neatly translate the "uranus" joke with the word "lune" (moon), aka buttocks in very colloquial language. Of course, Jo is the better
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 10:49 am (#225 of 334)
Librarian
I thought that Neville said 'sorcerous' instead of 'sorcerers.' I could very well be wrong but I don't remember saucerers.
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GryffEndora - May 10, 2005 12:22 pm (#226 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Several posts back there was a discussion about the meaning of Morsmordre. I read this definition on another thread and thought I'd add it to the discussion.
From the thread: What Made You Shout Out Loud? Magika - Sep 10, 2004 10:17 am (#56 of 90) Came up with another one: When I found out that the "morsmordre" spell actually means "killer of mothers" in Norwegian...
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Dr Filibuster - May 10, 2005 12:52 pm (#227 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Every possible source and influence for the word "Morsmordre" just makes me shudder.
Thanks Detail Seeker. Not only did you give me a thorough explanation, but you also realised why I wanted to know. My second question would have been is old high German similar to Saxon?
Little Ginny, you're far more knowledgable in my language than I am; just as an ace wizard-born Muggle Studies student probably knows more than me about plugs.
Steve Newton, ahhh sorcerous/sorceror's, that makes more sense, ta.
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Ponine - May 10, 2005 7:42 pm (#228 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I had to laugh at the German translation of blast-ended screwts - that was hilarious... As Morsmordre in Norwegian, it is not exactly translate into mother-murderers, although I suppose it would sound like it if read out loud in a certain way. Personally I only noticed the Mors part, realating that to mort in French (which is death or dead, no??) The Uranus joke is absolutely adorable, and if anyone is still in the dark about it - just read it slowly - sounds exactly like 'your....' *giggling*
I am not sure how to go about this, but in the Norwegian translation, the translator decided that the Snitch should be called Snoppen. (And for you Swedes out there, I would be most interested in knowing how you feel about this, and if it is the same in Swedish...) This actually has a connotational meaning of - uhm - schlong, weiner or something along those lines...
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GryffEndora - May 10, 2005 7:49 pm (#229 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Wow, Ponine, maybe the Swedish translator is a fan of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.
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septentrion - May 11, 2005 10:17 am (#230 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Ponine, the possible meanings of morsmordre have been thoroughly discussed on this thread, if you use the search button, you should be able to find them.
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Ponine - May 11, 2005 3:21 pm (#231 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Septentrion, thanks, but nothing really showed up? Only five or six posts, including my own, mentioning it in passing... Shoot. Hopefully the discussion will loop back around soon Sometimes they tend to... I am curious, though, does it have French roots?
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Tomoé - May 11, 2005 7:34 pm (#232 of 334)
Back in business
Wasn't septentrion's old answer more than enough? ^_~
I'm rereading GoF and I came across the incantation for the Dark Mark : Morsmordre. The incantation can be divided in two words :
- mors = bit (the thing you put in the mouth of a horse to ride it). "Mors" is also a conjugated form of the word "mordre", ie to bite
-mordre = to bite.
Literally, it could be translated as "bitbite".I've wondered why Jo chose that word for the incantation to conjure the Dark Mark. Does it have something to see with the fact that a snake is protruding from the mouth of the skull, which can be seen as a skull biting a snake ?
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Elanor - May 11, 2005 10:10 pm (#233 of 334)
This was a very interesting discussion indeed and we also found this meaning: If we see it as "mors" (the latin word) and "mordre" (the French word for "to bite") there are several meanings since mors means "death" but also "corpse", "which gives death", "destruction" and "the end". So it means both "to bite death" (hence the Death Eater name) but also "to bite and give death".
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Tomoé - May 12, 2005 6:10 am (#234 of 334)
Back in business
Oh! I didn't remember that part Elanor, sonds better than the all French meaning. Does the declinaision fit?
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Ponine - May 12, 2005 8:51 am (#235 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Hm - Tomoe - it would have, had Septentrition's post shown up on my search. Alas, it did not. I really appreciate your additional information Eleanor - it reminded me forcibly of the Dementors - IT gives me the feeling that there is something about them and the Death Eaters that we have missed....
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Elanor - May 12, 2005 9:29 am (#236 of 334)
I'm happy you liked it! Tomoé, it is a very good question indeed! My Latin is a bit rusty but I would say that "mors", as a noun, must be the subject here "death to bite", translated literally. If it was "to bite death", it should be "mortem", not "mors" (if I remember well, which is not certain), that is to say if JKR applied the declension.
BTW, this made me search a little bit more in my dictionary and I found something curious: Mors is also a proper noun, it is the name of a goddess, meaning "Death", daughter of Erebus (son of Chaos, personification of Infernal Darkness) and Nox (Night). It gives to "mordre", to bite, a personification that is quite interesting, don't you think so?
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Tomoé - May 12, 2005 7:52 pm (#237 of 334)
Back in business
So it's either "the Death bites" or "the Goddess Mors bites". Anyway, morsmordre would mean the Death had swallow another family.
Edit: I'll ask Mireime about the declination this weekend.
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Miriam Huber - May 14, 2005 10:36 am (#238 of 334)
I have a question again - for the native speakers and for those who know English even better than the native speakers
There have been some posting about Snape´s comment in PS he could "even stopper death" (in his first lesson). Again and again people have suggested that this means he can brew potions that stop you from dying (and that, consequently, he had helped Voldemort with his experiments on immortality).
But someone (I think it was Ann) suggested it might mean instead: "fill death in a bottle" (and cork it) = make poisons.
I checked my dictionaries but I find the information quite ambiguous. My Oxford Dictionary says (about the verb "to stopper"): "use a stopper to seal (a bottle or other container): a small stoppered jar" But "to put a stopper on..." means: prevent something from happening or continuing (again Oxford).
Now what? Ist JKR´s phrase unambiguous for more skilled English speakers than me? And if so, in what sense? Or is it ambiguous?
Thanks in advance for your help!
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 12:32 pm (#239 of 334)
I don´t know if that one has been posted before, but a question that I´m asking me from time to time is:
In OotP (Snapes worst memory) Sirius says "I´m bored, wish it was full moon" and Remus answers "You might" darkly from behind his book. When I read this first and in english I thought it´s a negative answer to Sirius comment. When I then read the German version, Remus says something like "that would be nice".
Now am I translating "you might" wrong?
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GryffEndora - May 28, 2005 12:39 pm (#240 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Cornelia, I think you are translating "you might" exactly right. Rowling even says he answers darkly, helping to show that while Sirius might wish it were full moon, Remus clearly does not.
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 1:24 pm (#241 of 334)
Thank you!
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Ms Amanda - May 29, 2005 5:55 pm (#242 of 334)
Miriam Huber -
It's ambiguous. Most probably, he can do both. I think the meaning that takes us to "poison" works well, but most readers I know read the passage to mean that he can make a potion that could stop you from dying.
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Miriam Huber - May 30, 2005 12:44 am (#243 of 334)
Thanks, Ms. Amanda!
at last somebody was bothering to answer my question...
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azi - May 30, 2005 6:17 am (#244 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Hey Miriam! I always took the phrase to mean making a potion to kill someone and sealing it in a bottle. Would have replied earlier, just forgot which thread this was on!
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Tomoé - Jun 7, 2005 11:05 am (#245 of 334)
Back in business
I just found a site about Eastern language translation of Harry Potter, have a look:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Czarina II - Jun 16, 2005 12:14 am (#246 of 334)
Interesting link, Tomoe. Somewhat amusing. I feel very sorry for those translators -- they deserve medals just for taking the job! (Even if the results were not perfect.)
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Czarina II - Jun 19, 2005 3:28 pm (#247 of 334)
Interesting translation trivia fact: "Harry" is translated as "Gary" (or Garri) in Russian. Likewise, "Hermione" is "Germiona". "Hagrid" is still "Hagrid", though.
I think the major problem with translating the Harry Potter series is that the series isn't finished (ie. complete) yet. Translators are now worried that they could be leaving out important clues, or making the context of the story such that it would be difficult for readers of the future books to understand. Besides, (as evidenced in the link posted above) some puns and nuances just don't translate even out of English. The Uranus joke, for example, doesn't translate at all in other languages. [The Japanese translator's way of going about it was quite clever, if a bit hackneyed.] Some of the puns don't even ring a bell in English-speaking countries other than the UK -- Spellotape, for example.
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Little Ginny - Jun 20, 2005 12:23 pm (#248 of 334)
I think they made it "Chagrid" in Russian (with the same uvular sound as in German "Buch"), because "Gagrid" would have sounded too stupid (IMHO).
Czarina, yes, I agree. It's the same thing with the sometimes rather funny names. The translator doesn't know whether this character is not at all important, and he can remodel the name according to the language, or whether this character will be crucial for later books and films and therefore should keep his English name. The very thing happened to Sirius; in the first editions of the German version of PS/SS, he was called "Sirius Schwarz", it was changed after PoA came out.
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VeronikaG - Jun 23, 2005 7:51 am (#249 of 334)
Centaur - kentaur
Ghoul - gravgespenst / bankeånd
Merepeople - havfolk
pixy - fé
red caps - rødhette (red hoods)
Sea serpent - sjøorm
Unicorn - enhjørning
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Czarina II - Jun 24, 2005 11:05 pm (#250 of 334)
VeronikaG, which language is that again? Norwegian, am I right?
I think it would help the translators if JKR provided them with some sort of guide. Sort of like 'X will be important later, don't translate it too much' and 'Y is just a funny joke, this is why it is funny: [explain], translate it as best as you can'. There are lots of nuances and details in the series that I, a native English speaker, did not pick up the first reading, or that I did not immediately recognise as puns or jokes. Despite their training, it is ludicrous to expect that translators (all of whom have a good book-knowledge of English, but not necessarily a fluent street knowledge) will be able to grasp things which readers fluent in English do not. No language translates in a straightforward manner, especially jokes! (As another example, I was reading a Chekhov play recently that I knew was supposed to be a comedy. There were lines that I was sure were supposed to be jokes, but they didn't translate very well at all. Of course, in the case of Chekhov -- or even Shakespeare, for that matter -- time is also an issue.)
[Little Ginny -- If you're wondering why 'Hagrid' is translated (or transliterated) as 'Khagrid', IMO it is because 'H' is pronounced that way in Russian. Hence 'Harry' would be otherwise pronounced as 'Kharry'. Too harsh, in other words. The pronunciation of 'Hagrid' remains much the same in translation.]
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Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
If we did a poll about : "what do you know better ? Chimera or phoenix ?" Do you think we'd have a better result for one or the other ? I doubt it. That change is just, as you said Marè, plain stupid.
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Tomoé - Jan 12, 2005 9:14 am (#202 of 334)
Back in business
I suppose they never expected Harry Potter to become ... well ... Harry Potter. It was just a children book and no one was supposed to notice the change and the phoenix wasn't supposed to come back in the plot. The translator obviously underestimate Jo. It's still plain stupid nevertheless.
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Snuffles - Jan 13, 2005 2:34 am (#203 of 334)
Olivia
Lol! They obviously never expected a Forum like this where every little thing is scrutinized! There is no place to hide for mistakes as Jo found out!
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stranger - Feb 2, 2005 5:36 am (#204 of 334)
Some Hungarian translations:
Hogwarts - Roxfort
Hogsmeade - Roxmort
Godric Gryffindor - Griffendél Godrik
Helga Hufflepuff - Hugrabug Helga
Rowena Ravenclaw - Hollóháti Hedvig - "Hollóháti" means "raven's back" and not claw.
Salazar Slytherin - Mardekár Malazár
Severus Snape - Perselus Piton - Piton is Phyton in Hungarian.
Minerva McGonagall - Minerva McGalagony - Galagonya is hawthorn in H.
Quirrell - Mógus - As Quirrell cames from squirrel, Mógus cames from mókus (Hungarian translation of squirrel
Alastor Moody - Alastor Mordon - double 'o' is unknown in H.
Rita Skeeter - Rita Vitrol - Vitriolos is vitriolic in H.
Barty Crouch - Barty Kupor - simple translation
Diagon Alley - Abszol út - abszolút means absolute in H.
There is a little bit confusion in the ordering of the names. In Hungarian lastname cames first and then the firstname. I find that the names with foreign firstname keeps the English ordering and only the housefounders names are changed.
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septentrion - Feb 2, 2005 8:49 am (#205 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Rita Skeeter - Rita Vitrol - Vitriolos is vitriolic in H.
That's a good translation to me
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Ponine - Mar 4, 2005 6:32 am (#206 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I am DELIGHTED to find this thread! As an aspiring translator/writer myself, I have come to the conclusion that apart from subtitling 8 mile with Eminem (way too much slang and rhyme to ever come out right.), Harry Potter must be painfully challenging to translate, more so, of course, as they are immmensely popular. I for one have never even bothered to read more than the first one in Norwegian, and to be honest, I would never have read any more Harry Potter if it had not been for the fact that my colleague who lent me the books convinced me to try the CoS which was in English. I find the Norwegian translation is more causal, meandering and full of slang and somewhat immature, unnecessary changes to names, supposedly reflecting their character. of course, I can't find my book, so I will find it and then present you with my most frustrating names and creatures.
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Lina - Mar 10, 2005 7:08 am (#207 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Ponine: Harry Potter must be painfully challenging to translate
It most definitely is. Especially not knowing what is going to happen in next books. For example, when Prof. Grubby Plank appeared in the CoS, she was translated as a he professor because there was no way for the translator to know her gender. Reading here about some other translations, I really need to say how I find the Croatian translator Zlatko Crnkovic great. I think he did a good job. The only thing I would have done differently is translating the mirror of Esired in Croatian. I don't see the need to keep the English version for it.
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prof sprout - Mar 11, 2005 10:33 am (#208 of 334)
Apparently in the early versions on the Spanish translations the mirror was kept as Erised along with the phrase on the mirror. However, I have like the 30 somthingth edition of the Spanish text and they have re translated it to oesod which is the backwards word for desire in Spanish. They also translated the phrase to be backwards translation. So maybe in new versions of the text it will be corrected.
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Miriam Huber - May 8, 2005 1:11 pm (#209 of 334)
This is not exactly about translation, more about non-translation, so to speak -- a question of a non-native speaker who reads HP in English: What is the difference between a "witch" and a "hag"? In German, there is only the word "Hexe", but to me it seems that "hag" has quite a wilder, rather negative meaning? Can someone help me?
P.S. I had a similar question concerning Ron´s question "Can I see Uranus too, Lavender?" some time ago (many thanks again for the explanation what was funny about that line!). Perhaps we could open a thread like: "understandig English expressions turning up in HP" -- or better name it: "emproove your English" (bowing to Fleur Delacour)?
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haymoni - May 8, 2005 1:27 pm (#210 of 334)
In the British version of the books, what does Neville say in the Hogs Head about Harry's wonderous deeds?
In my American version he says (I can't recall the exact words.) something like: "Yeah, and in our first year he went after that Saucerer's Stone" - Hermione corrects him with "Sorcerer's Stone".
In the British version, does he say "Phospherous" instead of "Philosopher's" - Just curious.
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azi - May 8, 2005 1:31 pm (#211 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Neville says 'Philological Stone'.
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Little Ginny - May 8, 2005 1:46 pm (#212 of 334)
Miriam, I faced the same problem when I was trying to translate "hag" and knew I wouldn't want to use "Hexe". In the end, I decided to use "Zankteufelin" as a German translation for "hag". I'm not even sure whether this really exists in German, but I found it somehow fitting. "zankhexe" exists, I think, but I thought it was too near "Hexe".
I understand what you mean about "uranus". it took me ages to understand... I don't think the translator even noticed, but I read the book in English, so I don't mind. I bet there are loads more things like that in Harry Potter, which we "Krauts" simply don't get... :-)
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 5:15 am (#213 of 334)
Oh yeah, Little Ginny, how right you are! Just a couple of days ago, I finally looked up "ghoul", and my English-German lexicon translated: "Ghul". Now, I am not THAT bad at my native tongue, but what is a german "Ghul"? Finally, I asked an English-English dictionary and I can imagine what they mean by their explanation, even if I don´t know how I would call such thing in German... Do you know how they translated "ghoul" in the German versions of HP? I never read them and I always find the German terms quite ridiculous if I meet them somewhere -- like "Todesser" for "deatheater"! It is, of course, quite a literal translation, but I don´t find it at all frightening! Well, perhaps it is just a matter of what you are accustomed to. Only problem is: If I talk to somebody about HP, I am lacking not only the German terms but am lapsing again and again into English ...
P.S. Do you use HP for translation exercices? At the university?
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Cornelia - May 9, 2005 5:56 am (#214 of 334)
They write "Ghul" and "sabberhexe" (for hag).
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Little Ginny - May 9, 2005 9:27 am (#215 of 334)
I do indeed use HP for translation exercise, but not for university, but just for private practicing. I began when I listened to the German audio book (I love the way Rufus Beck reads it, even though the translation is terrible) when I suddenly noticed that there was something wrong with the crucial chapter of PoA. I thought it was just me being too tired to listen properly, but then I checked with a friend's German version and noticed that the translator had completely destroyed chapter 18, by reorganizing the paragraphs, leaving out half of the text and writing new linking sentences, so that I decided to re-translate that chapter in order to illustrate to my friend how terrible the translation is, and now it has become a sort of habit, that when I feel I might need some practice I just translate a page or two of HP- just for my own private amusement.
Oh, and I do so understand what you say about talking with German readers about HP. It's like- "Aren't those Blast-Ended Skrewts awful?"- "The what?" "Oh, you know, the creatures Hagrid keeps!"- "Ah, you mean 'knallrümpfige Kröter'"- and it goes on like this forever.
But the second worst thing- apart from the re-writing of chapters- is that the translator doesn't know the vocabulary. For example, he translated "plug" as "Pflug" ("Pflug" would be plough, btw) and "Yew" as "Ja".
Can you tell that I'm not a big fan of the German translation? I prefer the original version by far, and only even know about the translation because of the German audio books
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 11:11 am (#216 of 334)
Thanks for the translations, Cornelia! But when Hermione hisses "you terrible old hag" about Umbridge, I don´t picture Umbridge as a "Sabberhexe". She is not senile, she is twisted, horrible, vicious! ... Oh, "Pflug" for "plug", that´s stupid. What for heavens sake is the diagram in Mr. Weasley´s office to show in German if it shows "how to wire a plug"; is it about electricity-based farming or what???
By the way, while I have never read the German version, I did read some HP-books in French (to improve my French. I know, you shouldn´t read translations to do that, but as I was constantly reading HP anyway, I thought: why not do it in French?). It was there that I realized that JKR´s humor is not the same when translated. AND they skipped some paragraphs in the French version, too. I noticed for example that, in PoA at Flourish and Blotts, the sentence about the "invisible books of invisibility" was missing. Why in the name of Merlin did they leave it out???
I really don´t like translators who think they are cleverer than the authors. I am just doing some "working translations" of french philosophical text and I my greatest fear really is to confuse or alter the line of thoughts of the original text.
By the way, what would you as a translator do about that uranus sentence, Little Ginny? (just curious...)
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Detail Seeker - May 9, 2005 12:08 pm (#217 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
If you ask me, the translation "Hexe" would be right for "hag", the word being derived from the old high german (althochdeutschen) "hagahazusa" via some steps. "haga" is translated as "Waldfrau" (woman from the forest) and "hazusa" is a participial form of "hatan" "hassen, feindselig sein" ("hate"). A "hagazusa" is so a "feindselige, hassende Waldfrau". Another theory is, that Hexe is just derived from "hazusa", but this would not explain "hag". And as the english language preserves a lot of pre old high german forms, it might just be a different form of shortening "hagazusa". This derivation is made in Wolfgang Golther "Handbuch der germanischen Mythologie" citing other sources.
Interesting is , that here seems to be no old word for good magic people in the old mythology, which could be a better translation for "witch" but "Zauberin". "Dise" is normally a positive word, though in the "Edda" , the Voluspa speaks of "üble Disen fliegen" - but this is translated from a late nordic text, that has already seen a lot of christian interference - especially in connotations. "Dise would mean "weise Frau" ("wise woman"), though, to some extent, they are mixed with "wurd" or "volva, wala", predicting and enacting fate.
So, "Dise" or - how unpoetic - "Zauberin" would be a fitting translation for "witch".
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Little Ginny - May 9, 2005 12:43 pm (#218 of 334)
Thanks for the explanation, Detail Seeker! I wouldn't have thought there was such an interesting explanation for this "little translation problem". Still, I think "Zauberin", although etymological very fitting for "witch", would not be very practicable in a translation, it sounds just weird to me as a native speaker, or do you feel differently about it?
Miriam, I must confess that as to the Uranus question, I am at a loss... I can, however, not claim that I am a professional translator, nor do I think I shall be in the nearer future. At the moment I am (at the University) struggling to translate German texts into English, which is even more difficult for me than the other way round.
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Dr Filibuster - May 9, 2005 12:49 pm (#219 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Interesting. Detail Seeker, how old is old high German?
I think Rowling pictures Hags as a different type of being, not like witches at all. Hags eat children don't they? JKR seems to think so. There are some newsletters she wrote in the 1990's that have been added to the lexicon. She has an amusing advert from a hag.
I'm curious about a previous post (perhaps this should be on the pronunciation thread). Do Americans pronounce "saucerer's" and "sorceror's" differently? How would Hermione know to correct Neville? Or is that just part of the funny sentence?
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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 12:58 pm (#220 of 334)
You are right, Dr Filibuster, I remember Harry seeing a hag ordering a plate of "raw liver" in the Leaky Cauldron. So, in JKR´s universe, hags evidently aren´t only evil witches, they are different beings. I will browse the lexicon for more. Your comment reminds me WHY I was wondering about hags in the first place! Is this witch/hag-difference only JKR´s thing -- then why doesn´t she ever explain it?
edit: WHY wasn´t I asking the Lexicon before?! There is an entry "hag" in The Bestiary -- quite illuminating!
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Detail Seeker - May 9, 2005 3:01 pm (#221 of 334)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Sue, old high german is a group of german dialects used from about 750 to about 1050 in the south-west area of Germany. (a german link explaining : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I did not find one in english ). So, there are some differences between old high german and old saxon, the now common name for a north-eastern group of dialects, which contains the dialects sspoken by the Angles and Saxons, that brought the basis of the language, that developed to the English language.
Miriam, as you mention the Lexicon, I had a search there and found some interesting explanations on the "Hagrid" page ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ). There, the word "hag" is derived from "haegtesse" (another contraction of "Hagehazusa"), too, but the word is translated as "hedge rider", "Zaunreiterin", which also was a word for a malevolent female magic being. The explanation given for the origin of "hedge rider" differ. While the Lexicon´s sources claim that this comes from beings crossing the border (hedge) between the magic world and the human world, while my sources claim, that they are women riding at night over the fences men built around their dwwellings, opening them for other evil folk. Odin´s rune song in the Havamal explicitly talks about "tunridur" riding, as he offers a spell as to turn them away.
Also, the translation between "Hagehazusa" and "Hegde rider" is not quite clear. The old german words for these beings are tunrida or zunrida, walriderske, icelandic tunridur. "Haag" being aword for a place protected by fences might explain the first part, and "hegen", the verb for "building fences round a place" might well be related to "to hedge" by a common ancestor, but I do not see an explanation for "rider" in "Haegtesse" or "Hagehazusa".
While both words seem refer to the same type of being, I doubt that hag is really contracted from "hedge rider"- but that is the interestingthing in ethymology: There may be many explanations and nobody knows, which theory is the best.
Little Ginny, I agree, "Zauberin" does not sound weird, a little bit clinical", devoid of any connotation. But there does not seem to be a good catch all word for a benevolent magic woman in german but "Dise". Bad, that is rather uncommon, so most readers would have their difficulties in understanding it.
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Little Ginny - May 10, 2005 7:57 am (#222 of 334)
About saucerer / sorcerer: I'm no expert, but I think that in American (in General American at least), the first "r" in "sorcerer" would be pronounced. The reason should be that General American is, unlike Received Pronounciation, a Rhotic variety of English, i.e., in General American, all "r"-sounds are clearly pronounced. (I had to take a class on Phonetics and Phonology of English last year, so that's where my knowledge about pronounciation comes from)
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 9:45 am (#223 of 334)
Librarian
Where does the 'saucerer' come from? I'm not getting the connection.
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septentrion - May 10, 2005 10:45 am (#224 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think "saucerer" is a pun with "sorcerer", and a Neville's mistake he made in the Hog's head while they were forming the DA.
About the french translation : I know some paragraphs are lacking but it's really good. The translator managed to create some very Jo-ish puns of his own (like Neville's cochon d'Inde * Guinea pig * looking like a cochon-dinde * pig-turkey * in transfiguration class). He also managed to neatly translate the "uranus" joke with the word "lune" (moon), aka buttocks in very colloquial language. Of course, Jo is the better
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 10:49 am (#225 of 334)
Librarian
I thought that Neville said 'sorcerous' instead of 'sorcerers.' I could very well be wrong but I don't remember saucerers.
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GryffEndora - May 10, 2005 12:22 pm (#226 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Several posts back there was a discussion about the meaning of Morsmordre. I read this definition on another thread and thought I'd add it to the discussion.
From the thread: What Made You Shout Out Loud? Magika - Sep 10, 2004 10:17 am (#56 of 90) Came up with another one: When I found out that the "morsmordre" spell actually means "killer of mothers" in Norwegian...
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Dr Filibuster - May 10, 2005 12:52 pm (#227 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Every possible source and influence for the word "Morsmordre" just makes me shudder.
Thanks Detail Seeker. Not only did you give me a thorough explanation, but you also realised why I wanted to know. My second question would have been is old high German similar to Saxon?
Little Ginny, you're far more knowledgable in my language than I am; just as an ace wizard-born Muggle Studies student probably knows more than me about plugs.
Steve Newton, ahhh sorcerous/sorceror's, that makes more sense, ta.
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Ponine - May 10, 2005 7:42 pm (#228 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I had to laugh at the German translation of blast-ended screwts - that was hilarious...
As Morsmordre in Norwegian, it is not exactly translate into mother-murderers, although I suppose it would sound like it if read out loud in a certain way. Personally I only noticed the Mors part, realating that to mort in French (which is death or dead, no??) The Uranus joke is absolutely adorable, and if anyone is still in the dark about it - just read it slowly - sounds exactly like 'your....' *giggling* I am not sure how to go about this, but in the Norwegian translation, the translator decided that the Snitch should be called Snoppen. (And for you Swedes out there, I would be most interested in knowing how you feel about this, and if it is the same in Swedish...) This actually has a connotational meaning of - uhm - schlong, weiner or something along those lines...
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GryffEndora - May 10, 2005 7:49 pm (#229 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Wow, Ponine, maybe the Swedish translator is a fan of The Rocky Horror Picture Show.
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septentrion - May 11, 2005 10:17 am (#230 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Ponine, the possible meanings of morsmordre have been thoroughly discussed on this thread, if you use the search button, you should be able to find them.
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Ponine - May 11, 2005 3:21 pm (#231 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Septentrion, thanks, but nothing really showed up? Only five or six posts, including my own, mentioning it in passing... Shoot. Hopefully the discussion will loop back around soon
Sometimes they tend to... I am curious, though, does it have French roots? - - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - May 11, 2005 7:34 pm (#232 of 334)
Back in business
Wasn't septentrion's old answer more than enough? ^_~
I'm rereading GoF and I came across the incantation for the Dark Mark : Morsmordre. The incantation can be divided in two words :
- mors = bit (the thing you put in the mouth of a horse to ride it). "Mors" is also a conjugated form of the word "mordre", ie to bite
-mordre = to bite.
Literally, it could be translated as "bitbite".I've wondered why Jo chose that word for the incantation to conjure the Dark Mark. Does it have something to see with the fact that a snake is protruding from the mouth of the skull, which can be seen as a skull biting a snake ?
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Elanor - May 11, 2005 10:10 pm (#233 of 334)
This was a very interesting discussion indeed and we also found this meaning: If we see it as "mors" (the latin word) and "mordre" (the French word for "to bite") there are several meanings since mors means "death" but also "corpse", "which gives death", "destruction" and "the end". So it means both "to bite death" (hence the Death Eater name) but also "to bite and give death".
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Tomoé - May 12, 2005 6:10 am (#234 of 334)
Back in business
Oh! I didn't remember that part Elanor, sonds better than the all French meaning. Does the declinaision fit?
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Ponine - May 12, 2005 8:51 am (#235 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Hm - Tomoe - it would have, had Septentrition's post shown up on my search. Alas, it did not. I really appreciate your additional information Eleanor - it reminded me forcibly of the Dementors - IT gives me the feeling that there is something about them and the Death Eaters that we have missed....
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Elanor - May 12, 2005 9:29 am (#236 of 334)
I'm happy you liked it! Tomoé, it is a very good question indeed! My Latin is a bit rusty but I would say that "mors", as a noun, must be the subject here "death to bite", translated literally. If it was "to bite death", it should be "mortem", not "mors" (if I remember well, which is not certain), that is to say if JKR applied the declension.
BTW, this made me search a little bit more in my dictionary and I found something curious: Mors is also a proper noun, it is the name of a goddess, meaning "Death", daughter of Erebus (son of Chaos, personification of Infernal Darkness) and Nox (Night). It gives to "mordre", to bite, a personification that is quite interesting, don't you think so?
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Tomoé - May 12, 2005 7:52 pm (#237 of 334)
Back in business
So it's either "the Death bites" or "the Goddess Mors bites". Anyway, morsmordre would mean the Death had swallow another family.
Edit: I'll ask Mireime about the declination this weekend.
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Miriam Huber - May 14, 2005 10:36 am (#238 of 334)
I have a question again - for the native speakers and for those who know English even better than the native speakers
There have been some posting about Snape´s comment in PS he could "even stopper death" (in his first lesson). Again and again people have suggested that this means he can brew potions that stop you from dying (and that, consequently, he had helped Voldemort with his experiments on immortality).
But someone (I think it was Ann) suggested it might mean instead: "fill death in a bottle" (and cork it) = make poisons.
I checked my dictionaries but I find the information quite ambiguous. My Oxford Dictionary says (about the verb "to stopper"): "use a stopper to seal (a bottle or other container): a small stoppered jar" But "to put a stopper on..." means: prevent something from happening or continuing (again Oxford).
Now what? Ist JKR´s phrase unambiguous for more skilled English speakers than me? And if so, in what sense? Or is it ambiguous?
Thanks in advance for your help!
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 12:32 pm (#239 of 334)
I don´t know if that one has been posted before, but a question that I´m asking me from time to time is:
In OotP (Snapes worst memory) Sirius says "I´m bored, wish it was full moon" and Remus answers "You might" darkly from behind his book. When I read this first and in english I thought it´s a negative answer to Sirius comment. When I then read the German version, Remus says something like "that would be nice".
Now am I translating "you might" wrong?
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GryffEndora - May 28, 2005 12:39 pm (#240 of 334)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Cornelia, I think you are translating "you might" exactly right. Rowling even says he answers darkly, helping to show that while Sirius might wish it were full moon, Remus clearly does not.
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 1:24 pm (#241 of 334)
Thank you!
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Ms Amanda - May 29, 2005 5:55 pm (#242 of 334)
Miriam Huber -
It's ambiguous. Most probably, he can do both. I think the meaning that takes us to "poison" works well, but most readers I know read the passage to mean that he can make a potion that could stop you from dying.
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Miriam Huber - May 30, 2005 12:44 am (#243 of 334)
Thanks, Ms. Amanda!
at last somebody was bothering to answer my question...
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azi - May 30, 2005 6:17 am (#244 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Hey Miriam! I always took the phrase to mean making a potion to kill someone and sealing it in a bottle. Would have replied earlier, just forgot which thread this was on!
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Tomoé - Jun 7, 2005 11:05 am (#245 of 334)
Back in business
I just found a site about Eastern language translation of Harry Potter, have a look:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Czarina II - Jun 16, 2005 12:14 am (#246 of 334)
Interesting link, Tomoe. Somewhat amusing. I feel very sorry for those translators -- they deserve medals just for taking the job! (Even if the results were not perfect.)
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Czarina II - Jun 19, 2005 3:28 pm (#247 of 334)
Interesting translation trivia fact: "Harry" is translated as "Gary" (or Garri) in Russian. Likewise, "Hermione" is "Germiona". "Hagrid" is still "Hagrid", though.
I think the major problem with translating the Harry Potter series is that the series isn't finished (ie. complete) yet. Translators are now worried that they could be leaving out important clues, or making the context of the story such that it would be difficult for readers of the future books to understand. Besides, (as evidenced in the link posted above) some puns and nuances just don't translate even out of English. The Uranus joke, for example, doesn't translate at all in other languages. [The Japanese translator's way of going about it was quite clever, if a bit hackneyed.] Some of the puns don't even ring a bell in English-speaking countries other than the UK -- Spellotape, for example.
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Little Ginny - Jun 20, 2005 12:23 pm (#248 of 334)
I think they made it "Chagrid" in Russian (with the same uvular sound as in German "Buch"), because "Gagrid" would have sounded too stupid (IMHO).
Czarina, yes, I agree. It's the same thing with the sometimes rather funny names. The translator doesn't know whether this character is not at all important, and he can remodel the name according to the language, or whether this character will be crucial for later books and films and therefore should keep his English name. The very thing happened to Sirius; in the first editions of the German version of PS/SS, he was called "Sirius Schwarz", it was changed after PoA came out.
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VeronikaG - Jun 23, 2005 7:51 am (#249 of 334)
Centaur - kentaur
Ghoul - gravgespenst / bankeånd
Merepeople - havfolk
pixy - fé
red caps - rødhette (red hoods)
Sea serpent - sjøorm
Unicorn - enhjørning
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Czarina II - Jun 24, 2005 11:05 pm (#250 of 334)
VeronikaG, which language is that again? Norwegian, am I right?
I think it would help the translators if JKR provided them with some sort of guide. Sort of like 'X will be important later, don't translate it too much' and 'Y is just a funny joke, this is why it is funny: [explain], translate it as best as you can'. There are lots of nuances and details in the series that I, a native English speaker, did not pick up the first reading, or that I did not immediately recognise as puns or jokes. Despite their training, it is ludicrous to expect that translators (all of whom have a good book-knowledge of English, but not necessarily a fluent street knowledge) will be able to grasp things which readers fluent in English do not. No language translates in a straightforward manner, especially jokes! (As another example, I was reading a Chekhov play recently that I knew was supposed to be a comedy. There were lines that I was sure were supposed to be jokes, but they didn't translate very well at all. Of course, in the case of Chekhov -- or even Shakespeare, for that matter -- time is also an issue.)
[Little Ginny -- If you're wondering why 'Hagrid' is translated (or transliterated) as 'Khagrid', IMO it is because 'H' is pronounced that way in Russian. Hence 'Harry' would be otherwise pronounced as 'Kharry'. Too harsh, in other words. The pronunciation of 'Hagrid' remains much the same in translation.]
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 251 to 300)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:57 am
Little Ginny - Jun 25, 2005 3:36 am (#251 of 334)
Czarina- I learned that you could transliterate H both as KH or as G in Russian, depending on what vowel followed afterwards. But I must confess that I haven't taken a Russian class for more than a year now, so I think I forgot quite a lot- maybe I mixed it up.
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VeronikaG - Jun 26, 2005 11:09 am (#252 of 334)
Yes, I'm Norwegian. Forgot to say.
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septentrion - Aug 6, 2005 5:45 am (#253 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I wanted to stress Jo's stunning sense of writing : when she writes Fleur's lines, she writes them as if she had thought them in French, then translated them in English, what she probably did. I was rereading sompe parts of "the slug club" this morning, and Fleur says about Tonks (just add the proper accent) : she has let herself go. That are the words we would use in french, translated word for word. I don't know if english-speaking people would use them spontaneously, but in french, we would. BTW, "to let oneself go" means to neglect oneself, to show interest in few or no matter at all out of grief, depression, sadness etc, and is about a physical as well as psychological state.
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Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2005 11:05 am (#254 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
In the U.S., we use the same phrase, septentrion.
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CatherineHermiona - Oct 8, 2005 10:44 am (#255 of 334)
My drawing... LOL
On Croatian, translation of Half-Blood Prince is Princ mješane krvi and they shouldn't change word Prince because it's because of surname and not the title and I find it funny that they translated Half-Blood Prince to something like Prince of mixed blood and not something like polukrvni (half-blood). I was so interested how they are going to translate that because it is little tricky, especially that Prince translation because Eileen's surname isn't Princ.
Kate
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Troels Forchhammer - Oct 10, 2005 1:20 am (#256 of 334)
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing. - Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Oooh! I just found this thread ...
VeronikaG told us that in Norwegian ‘red caps - rødhette (red hoods)’ — in Danish, “rødhætte” (the same word as the Norwegian “rødhette”) is Little Red Riding Hood ...
Septentrion opined that, ‘when she writes Fleur's lines, she writes them as if she had thought them in French,’ — and I wouldn't be surprised. Rowling does know French rather well, IIRC, far better than my English, I believe, and I've caught myself translating English idioms to Danish (where they made absolutely no sense )
Finally regarding the translation of the title, ‘The Half-Blood Prince’. I've wondered a few times myself about this, because in order to make sense throughout the book, the title must imply both connotations of ‘Prince’ royal title and surname.
In Danish this won't be entirely successful as we don't tend to make definites of our surnames (not very often, at least, and it will sound artificial), and the book title uses the definite form (which, in Danish, is a suffix to the word rather than a prefixed article). On the other hand the connotation of an assumed royal title will only make sense in Danish if it does use the definite form, so they're in a mess there ...
Regards,
Troels
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Nicholas Schouten - Oct 10, 2005 9:03 am (#257 of 334)
Does anyone have an answer yet to how the translation of R.A.B. is being done? On the R.A.B. Thread it was posited that in the translation could be the clue, for example, if the last initial in the Spanish translation is "N" and in the German translation "S", then there is a very big clue that it is Regulus Black.
Thanks.
- Nick
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Little Ginny - Oct 10, 2005 10:17 am (#258 of 334)
nicholas, I think they have corrected the German translation. Only the first editions of the first books said "Sirius Schwarz", but later editions of the first book (including mine) and of the other books (including audiobooks) say "Sirius Black", like in English.
So, no clues there, I'm afraid.
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Lina - Oct 10, 2005 3:01 pm (#259 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Oooooh, Nick, it's very tricky. I'm afraid that JKR doesnt explain to the translators what she ment when she wrote this or that clue. It was already mentioned on this thread that Petunia was translated as elder sister in Japanese, while we don't know that for sure, and Prof. Grubbly-Plank was a man in Croatian translation of the CoS while it is a woman in OotP.
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João Paulo Costa - Oct 27, 2005 3:42 am (#260 of 334)
Some notes:
I just discovered this thread. Unfortunatly, I do not have the books at hand. What I remember form the portuguese translation:
- boggart = "sem-forma" [literally means "whithout a form"]
(I do non rember any more creatures)
About the HBP title, I read in the Editorial Presença website, the editorial house that publishes the translated HP books in Portugal, that the title would be:
"Harry Potter e o Príncipe Misterioso"
which would literally translate to "Harry Potter and the Misterious Prince".
I am very curious to see how the information reagarding Eileen Prince will be conveyed, and what Harry is going to read on the potions book that belonged to Snape (the phrase "This book belongs to the Half-Blood Prince"). In the Portuguese version, the english surnames are kept in that language. Will the translators write "This book belongs to the Misterious Prince"? Will they try to mingle the two languages and explain in footnotes?
EDIT NOTE: I just found out that the portuguese HBP was released last 16th October. This is the problem of not being in Portugal (I am living in Madrid), and not having direct acess to information.
Are there any other portuguese Forum participants that could answer the above issues? Thank you.
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Mrs. Sirius - Nov 4, 2005 9:19 pm (#261 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Great news, the Spanish translation for the HBP is set for February 2006 the title in Spanish will, like the Portugese, be changed to "HP y el Misterio del Prínciple". There will be three versions, the Spanish version, the South American version and the American version.
When I told my husband today he asked the difference between the South American version and the American version? will the American version have the typical Americanisms such as "Harry y Ron estaban hangiando en el hallway de Hogwarts?" Sorry I just couldn't resist.
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Finn BV - Nov 5, 2005 8:04 am (#262 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Haha, Mrs. Sirius, that was good! Especially considering the fact that I take Spanish and nearly ran to a dictionary to look up 'hangiando'…
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Eunice - Jan 14, 2006 3:10 am (#263 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
I believe the Italian translation of HP is one of the worst of the world maybe (that's why I always read it in English ^^). Anyway, HP6 was released in Italy January 6, 2006 and I checked it out.
The title is "HP e il principe mezzosangue" (exact translation of HBP). The problem is, the Italian translators in the previous books fell into a swamp and translated "Mudblood" with "mezzosangue" (literally: half-blood), so that the words Mudblood and half-blood are mixed up.
Slughorn was translated _yes, here we have the horrible habit of translating surnames. Terrible_ with "Lumacorno" (lumaca = slug and corno = horn, so it was a pretty close traslation).
The title chapter "The lightening-struck tower" was translated only "La Torre" ("The Tower"), erasing the reference to the bolt.
U-No-Poo was translated "No-pipì-no-pupù" (= no pee, no pooh,), while I thought a good translation could be "stiti-chi" (You-Know-Who in Italian is "Tu sai chi". The word "stitico" means constipated).
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Lina - Jan 14, 2006 4:06 pm (#264 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Oh, Eunice, how much I understand you! Sometimes I wanted to find a translator and give her some advice too.
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Eunice - Jan 15, 2006 2:36 am (#265 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
And the problem is deeper than that, because the Italian transator of HP is quite a powerful woman (she's the director of a publishing house) and so she *should* know how to do her job.
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CatherineHermiona - Jan 15, 2006 4:24 am (#266 of 334)
My drawing... LOL
We (luckily) don't have a translator that changes names and surnames. Only here and there they change last letter. For example: Hermione=Hermiona or Merope=Meropa. That is really confusing when you translate mudblood like half-blood. So now Snape is mudblood? Funny.
Totally off-topic, but do you live anywhere near Croatia. Just curious, as I live in Croatia.
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Eunice - Jan 15, 2006 4:32 am (#267 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Yes, it's very confusing to mix up mudblood and half-blood.
No, I live in the South of Italy. One of my dearest friend, however, lives in Trieste and I went to her city a couple of times. One day we passed the line and went to a restaurant in Slovenia, but I never went to Croatia.
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Eunice - Jan 19, 2006 1:39 am (#268 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Random Italian translations:
Apparition = Materializzazione
Bludgers = Bolidi
Borgin and Burkes = Magie Sinister
Bowtruckles = Asticelli
Buckbeak = Fierobecco
Butterbeer = Burrobirra
Cornelius Fudge = Cornelius Caramell
Crabbe = Tiger
Creevey bros. = fratelli Canon
Crookshanks = Grattastinchi
Daily Prophet = La Gazzetta del Profeta
Dark Mark = Marchio Nero
Death Eaters = Mangiamorte
Dementors = Dissennatori
Dumbledore = Silente
Dumbledore’s Army = Esercito di Silente
Extendable Ears = Orecchie Oblunghe
Fang = Thor
Fawkes = Fanny
Filch = Gazza
Firenze = Fiorenzo (I don’t understand this one, as Firenze is already an Italian word)
Flitwick = Vitious
Florean Fortescue = Florian Fortebraccio
Flourish and Blotts = Il Ghirigoro
Golden Snitch = Boccino d’oro
Grawp = Grop
Griffyndor = Grifondoro
Hedwig = Edvige
Hermione = Ermione
Hufflepuff = Tassorosso
Knight Bus = Nottetempo
Knockturn Alley = Notturn Alley
Lavender Brown = Lavanda Brown
Longbottom = Paciock
Madam Hooch = Madama Bumb
Madam Malkin = Madama McClan
Madam Pomfrey = Madama Chips
Madam Puddifoot = Madama Piediburro
Mad-Eye Moody = Malocchio Moody
Marauders = Malandrini
McGonagall = McGranitt
Mrs. Norris = Mrs Purr
Muggle = Babbano (fem. babbana, plur.m. babbani, plur.f. babbane)
N.E.W.T.s = M.A.G.O.
Nosebleed Nougat = Torrone Sanguinolento
O.W.L.s = G.U.F.O.
Ollivander = Olivander
Parvati Patil = Calì Patil
Peeves = Pix
Pensieve = Pensatoio
Pigwidgeon = Leotordo
Quaffle = Pluffa
Ravenclaw = Corvonero
Room of Requirement = Stanza delle Necessità
Shield Charm = Sortilegio Scudo
Skiving Snackboxes = Merendine Marinare
Slug Club = Lumaclub
Slughorn = Lumacorno
Slytherin = Serpeverde
Snape = Piton
Squib = Magonò
Stan Shunpike = Stan Picchetto
Sybil Trelawney = Sibilla Cooman
Terry Boot = Terry Steeval
The Burrow = La Tana
The Hog’s Head = La Testa di Porco
The Leaky Cauldron = Il Paiolo Magico
Three Broomsticks = Tre Manici di Scopa
Unbreakable Vow = Voto Infrangibile
Vanishing Cabinets = Armadi Svanitori
Weasley’s Wizard Wheezes = Tiri Vispi Weasley
Weird Sisters = Sorelle Stravagarie
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Netherlandic - Feb 16, 2006 3:37 pm (#269 of 334)
Am I glad that Half Blood Prince is Half Bloed Prins in Dutch!
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 16, 2006 11:35 pm (#270 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
In Spanish it's "El Misterio del Principe". More interesting they will release three Spanish versions to reflect the differnces in the Spanish speaking countries.
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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 6, 2006 8:00 am (#271 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Has anyone received their Spanish HP-Misterio yet? We first got a message that the book would not be a available, now the message it that the version we ordered would not be available. All of our past editions were by Salamader.
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Allacaya - Mar 12, 2006 5:20 am (#272 of 334)
I got Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in plattdeutsch. (That's a northern German dialect which is still spoken in some parts of northern Germany.) It's called "Harry Potter un de Wunnersteen".
I showed it to my greataunt, because she can still speak it. I was rather disappointed (at first). According to my her, they have apparently mixed the dialects together in the book . (There is not "one" dialect for the whole of northern Germany, but it differs from region to region.)
But then, maybe nowadays the differences are no longer there given the dialects have been mixed together in the last 60 years and not so many people speak it anymore.
On the other hand what was really hilarious, they translated "Fluffy" with "Plueschi" - hehe (from pluesch = plush).
Anyway, I feel in general you should not translate people's names. They are personal and part of their identity. It's like having to change your name when you immmigrate into a different county.
You could easily add a last page to the books with a translation of the names, so the word games are not lost, but the flair of the books is still there.
Nicknames and such are a different topic and of course spells and animalnames - o.k., but you do not change the rest of the setting, do you? It's still set in England. They still depart from Kings Cross in London. So why change street names if the action still takes place in Surrey or London? Or later Scotland?
If you'd transfer the whole setting into a different country...
How do you feel about that?
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septentrion - Mar 12, 2006 7:05 am (#273 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't mind that much if some names are changed on condition it's cleverly done. Take for instance Diagon Alley : there's a pun in it, some humour which deserves to be translated. About people's names, well I rather agree with you. But in Jo's world, some names just call for a translation. I regret Snape has been translated in Rogue in French, but Londubat for Longbottom (same meaning) just sounds right.
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wynnleaf - Mar 14, 2006 3:02 pm (#274 of 334)
I'm very curious to learn whether or not non-English versions have the part where DD tells Draco that they could fake his death. This is in the American version, but not the British and there has been a lot of speculation as to which version was the "correction."
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septentrion - Mar 15, 2006 12:00 pm (#275 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't have bought HBP in French yet but the french translation usually follows the british version. For example, in American CoS, Ron explains to Harry about apparition when they "borrow" the Anglia. That explanation isn't in the British version nor in the French version.
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John Bumbledore - Apr 12, 2006 9:00 pm (#276 of 334)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Oh, I have search to find translations of the word magic and if there is a correspondence between the translation and the number Mr. Weasley dials to ring the MoM from the phone booth. I have had no luck with my search so I pose the question to the experts that have posted to this thread. **Yes, I mean all of you are experts.** Thank you for any help.
The second part of this question is, do they translate Peeves name in non-English versions?
<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore
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azi - Apr 13, 2006 8:01 am (#277 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
John, in my version of PS in German, Peeves is just Peeves!
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John Bumbledore - Apr 13, 2006 9:12 am (#278 of 334)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Thank you, Azi. Your answer and some testing on Jo's website viewed in few different languages has satisfied my curiosity. Seems my above post was the second time yesterday that I made what I now understand to be unnecessary posts.
<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore
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azi - Apr 13, 2006 9:17 am (#279 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Posts are never unnecessary, John! We all have silly days anyway!
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septentrion - Apr 14, 2006 3:39 am (#280 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Peeves is also Peeves in French. As for the phone number, it's been simply translated from English without taking into consideration the french word.
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Lina - Apr 15, 2006 2:40 pm (#281 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, there are no JKR pages in Croatian, but I can tell you that the Croatian translator kept the numbers for "magic" in the book (maybe she knew that there will be the official site using that number some day ) and yes, Peeves is Peeves in Croatian too.
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Neville Longbottom - Apr 16, 2006 3:55 pm (#282 of 334)
In German they changed the phone number, so that it fitted "Magie" (German word for magic, as you probably guessed).
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Madam Pince - Apr 30, 2006 1:54 pm (#283 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
This isn't exactly a "translation" question really, but I couldn't think of a better place to put it...
I'm re-reading PoA, and there was something I've always wondered about. What exactly is a "fry-up"? Aunt Marge says "...it's normally just a fry-up for me..." implying that she just has a quick dinner since she's so busy taking care of her dogs, but I'm not familiar with that phrase. Is it one that is common only to Great Britain? Does it refer to frying something specific, like hamburgers?
Thanks in advance to anyone who knows!
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azi - Apr 30, 2006 2:16 pm (#284 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I take 'fry up' to mean a very fatty meal that lots of people eat here in the UK, including things like sausages, bacon, bread and butter or fried bread, possibly chips, fried mushrooms, grilled tomatoes and fried egg. Basically an English breakfast!
Hope that helps!
Edit - I forgot baked beans!
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Rea - Apr 30, 2006 2:25 pm (#285 of 334)
Oxford Advanced Genie: Fry-up noun (BrE, informal) a meal of fried food, such as bacon and eggs: It's not good for your heart to eat too many fry-ups.
As you said, Azi!!!
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timrew - Apr 30, 2006 2:51 pm (#286 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
It's tasty, though!
And you forgot the black pudding, azi! Don't tell the Americans what goes in it!
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azi - Apr 30, 2006 3:02 pm (#287 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Ooops, silly me! My lips are sealed...
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Madam Pince - Apr 30, 2006 6:11 pm (#288 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Can't fool me on that one. I already know!
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timrew - May 1, 2006 1:03 am (#289 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Is it banned in California, like smoking in a public place, Madam Pince?
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Madam Pince - May 1, 2006 11:00 am (#290 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Dunno, timrew, that's the other side of the world to me! I'm on the east coast... If all was right with the world, though, seems to me that it should be banned! It's got to be at least as bad for you as smoking!
Thanks for the "fry-up" info, guys! Very helpful! I guess when I'm thinking like Aunt Marge (ie: "I'm so busy that I just eat X rather than cooking,") then X = a bowl of cereal or perhaps a microwaved frozen dinner. That's truly no effort! Even with a "fry-up" you'd have the greasy pan to clean, and all the spatters on the stove and all... of course, Aunt Marge probably just lets Ripper lick the pans and the stove, so no bother to her....
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Finn BV - Jul 7, 2006 7:23 pm (#291 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Is Eileen Prince's last name translated in the foreign editions to be whatever the word 'prince' is in that language? For example, in Spanish, is it Eileen Príncipe? After all, then Snape wouldn't been the Half-Blood Prince anymore if Eileen kept an English name.
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TheSaint - Jul 8, 2006 3:25 pm (#292 of 334)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Here is a nice list.
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Finn BV - Jul 8, 2006 9:12 pm (#293 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks for the list, TheSaint, but sadly, Eileen Prince is not on there.
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septentrion - Jul 9, 2006 4:10 am (#294 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Eileen Prince is still Eileen Prince in French, but then prince is the same word in French and in English.
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TheSaint - Jul 9, 2006 4:21 am (#295 of 334)
Yes she is Finn....Madame Pince.
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Finn BV - Jul 9, 2006 9:56 am (#296 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks, septentrion. I suppose that doesn't definitively answer the question.
LOL, TheSaint, that's if you believe MPISM… Madam Pince is Snape's Mom… I'm waiting for some forumers from countries where Prince is not Prince!
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TheSaint - Jul 9, 2006 9:24 pm (#297 of 334)
ROFL...I have read that theory so much, I automatically made the connection! LOL
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Anna L. Black - Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am (#298 of 334)
I'm not completely sure, but if I remember correctly - they didn't translate her name in the Hebrew edition. She is still called "Eileen Prince", although the word for prince in Hebrew is nasikh (And in the book's title the word prince was translated as nasikh).
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Finn BV - Jul 10, 2006 6:36 pm (#299 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Hmm, interesting, Anna. I wonder if this is the same in other languages as well.
Psst, Saint, me too! I just wanted more proof.
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deletedaccount - Jul 11, 2006 6:50 pm (#300 of 334)
What is the Hebrew word for princess?
How does the Hebrew word for prince say that she's Snape's mother? I'm confused.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Czarina- I learned that you could transliterate H both as KH or as G in Russian, depending on what vowel followed afterwards. But I must confess that I haven't taken a Russian class for more than a year now, so I think I forgot quite a lot- maybe I mixed it up.
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VeronikaG - Jun 26, 2005 11:09 am (#252 of 334)
Yes, I'm Norwegian. Forgot to say.
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septentrion - Aug 6, 2005 5:45 am (#253 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I wanted to stress Jo's stunning sense of writing : when she writes Fleur's lines, she writes them as if she had thought them in French, then translated them in English, what she probably did. I was rereading sompe parts of "the slug club" this morning, and Fleur says about Tonks (just add the proper accent) : she has let herself go. That are the words we would use in french, translated word for word. I don't know if english-speaking people would use them spontaneously, but in french, we would. BTW, "to let oneself go" means to neglect oneself, to show interest in few or no matter at all out of grief, depression, sadness etc, and is about a physical as well as psychological state.
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Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2005 11:05 am (#254 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
In the U.S., we use the same phrase, septentrion.
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CatherineHermiona - Oct 8, 2005 10:44 am (#255 of 334)
My drawing... LOL
On Croatian, translation of Half-Blood Prince is Princ mješane krvi and they shouldn't change word Prince because it's because of surname and not the title and I find it funny that they translated Half-Blood Prince to something like Prince of mixed blood and not something like polukrvni (half-blood). I was so interested how they are going to translate that because it is little tricky, especially that Prince translation because Eileen's surname isn't Princ.
Kate
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Troels Forchhammer - Oct 10, 2005 1:20 am (#256 of 334)
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing. - Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Oooh! I just found this thread ...
VeronikaG told us that in Norwegian ‘red caps - rødhette (red hoods)’ — in Danish, “rødhætte” (the same word as the Norwegian “rødhette”) is Little Red Riding Hood ...
Septentrion opined that, ‘when she writes Fleur's lines, she writes them as if she had thought them in French,’ — and I wouldn't be surprised. Rowling does know French rather well, IIRC, far better than my English, I believe, and I've caught myself translating English idioms to Danish (where they made absolutely no sense )
Finally regarding the translation of the title, ‘The Half-Blood Prince’. I've wondered a few times myself about this, because in order to make sense throughout the book, the title must imply both connotations of ‘Prince’ royal title and surname.
In Danish this won't be entirely successful as we don't tend to make definites of our surnames (not very often, at least, and it will sound artificial), and the book title uses the definite form (which, in Danish, is a suffix to the word rather than a prefixed article). On the other hand the connotation of an assumed royal title will only make sense in Danish if it does use the definite form, so they're in a mess there ...
Regards,
Troels
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Nicholas Schouten - Oct 10, 2005 9:03 am (#257 of 334)
Does anyone have an answer yet to how the translation of R.A.B. is being done? On the R.A.B. Thread it was posited that in the translation could be the clue, for example, if the last initial in the Spanish translation is "N" and in the German translation "S", then there is a very big clue that it is Regulus Black.
Thanks.
- Nick
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Little Ginny - Oct 10, 2005 10:17 am (#258 of 334)
nicholas, I think they have corrected the German translation. Only the first editions of the first books said "Sirius Schwarz", but later editions of the first book (including mine) and of the other books (including audiobooks) say "Sirius Black", like in English.
So, no clues there, I'm afraid.
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Lina - Oct 10, 2005 3:01 pm (#259 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Oooooh, Nick, it's very tricky. I'm afraid that JKR doesnt explain to the translators what she ment when she wrote this or that clue. It was already mentioned on this thread that Petunia was translated as elder sister in Japanese, while we don't know that for sure, and Prof. Grubbly-Plank was a man in Croatian translation of the CoS while it is a woman in OotP.
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João Paulo Costa - Oct 27, 2005 3:42 am (#260 of 334)
Some notes:
I just discovered this thread. Unfortunatly, I do not have the books at hand. What I remember form the portuguese translation:
- boggart = "sem-forma" [literally means "whithout a form"]
(I do non rember any more creatures)
About the HBP title, I read in the Editorial Presença website, the editorial house that publishes the translated HP books in Portugal, that the title would be:
"Harry Potter e o Príncipe Misterioso"
which would literally translate to "Harry Potter and the Misterious Prince".
I am very curious to see how the information reagarding Eileen Prince will be conveyed, and what Harry is going to read on the potions book that belonged to Snape (the phrase "This book belongs to the Half-Blood Prince"). In the Portuguese version, the english surnames are kept in that language. Will the translators write "This book belongs to the Misterious Prince"? Will they try to mingle the two languages and explain in footnotes?
EDIT NOTE: I just found out that the portuguese HBP was released last 16th October. This is the problem of not being in Portugal (I am living in Madrid), and not having direct acess to information.
Are there any other portuguese Forum participants that could answer the above issues? Thank you.
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Mrs. Sirius - Nov 4, 2005 9:19 pm (#261 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Great news, the Spanish translation for the HBP is set for February 2006 the title in Spanish will, like the Portugese, be changed to "HP y el Misterio del Prínciple". There will be three versions, the Spanish version, the South American version and the American version.
When I told my husband today he asked the difference between the South American version and the American version? will the American version have the typical Americanisms such as "Harry y Ron estaban hangiando en el hallway de Hogwarts?" Sorry I just couldn't resist.
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Finn BV - Nov 5, 2005 8:04 am (#262 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Haha, Mrs. Sirius, that was good! Especially considering the fact that I take Spanish and nearly ran to a dictionary to look up 'hangiando'…
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Eunice - Jan 14, 2006 3:10 am (#263 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
I believe the Italian translation of HP is one of the worst of the world maybe (that's why I always read it in English ^^). Anyway, HP6 was released in Italy January 6, 2006 and I checked it out.
The title is "HP e il principe mezzosangue" (exact translation of HBP). The problem is, the Italian translators in the previous books fell into a swamp and translated "Mudblood" with "mezzosangue" (literally: half-blood), so that the words Mudblood and half-blood are mixed up.
Slughorn was translated _yes, here we have the horrible habit of translating surnames. Terrible_ with "Lumacorno" (lumaca = slug and corno = horn, so it was a pretty close traslation).
The title chapter "The lightening-struck tower" was translated only "La Torre" ("The Tower"), erasing the reference to the bolt.
U-No-Poo was translated "No-pipì-no-pupù" (= no pee, no pooh,), while I thought a good translation could be "stiti-chi" (You-Know-Who in Italian is "Tu sai chi". The word "stitico" means constipated).
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Lina - Jan 14, 2006 4:06 pm (#264 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Oh, Eunice, how much I understand you! Sometimes I wanted to find a translator and give her some advice too.
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Eunice - Jan 15, 2006 2:36 am (#265 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
And the problem is deeper than that, because the Italian transator of HP is quite a powerful woman (she's the director of a publishing house) and so she *should* know how to do her job.
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CatherineHermiona - Jan 15, 2006 4:24 am (#266 of 334)
My drawing... LOL
We (luckily) don't have a translator that changes names and surnames. Only here and there they change last letter. For example: Hermione=Hermiona or Merope=Meropa. That is really confusing when you translate mudblood like half-blood. So now Snape is mudblood? Funny.
Totally off-topic, but do you live anywhere near Croatia. Just curious, as I live in Croatia.
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Eunice - Jan 15, 2006 4:32 am (#267 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Yes, it's very confusing to mix up mudblood and half-blood.
No, I live in the South of Italy. One of my dearest friend, however, lives in Trieste and I went to her city a couple of times. One day we passed the line and went to a restaurant in Slovenia, but I never went to Croatia.
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Eunice - Jan 19, 2006 1:39 am (#268 of 334)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Random Italian translations:
Apparition = Materializzazione
Bludgers = Bolidi
Borgin and Burkes = Magie Sinister
Bowtruckles = Asticelli
Buckbeak = Fierobecco
Butterbeer = Burrobirra
Cornelius Fudge = Cornelius Caramell
Crabbe = Tiger
Creevey bros. = fratelli Canon
Crookshanks = Grattastinchi
Daily Prophet = La Gazzetta del Profeta
Dark Mark = Marchio Nero
Death Eaters = Mangiamorte
Dementors = Dissennatori
Dumbledore = Silente
Dumbledore’s Army = Esercito di Silente
Extendable Ears = Orecchie Oblunghe
Fang = Thor
Fawkes = Fanny
Filch = Gazza
Firenze = Fiorenzo (I don’t understand this one, as Firenze is already an Italian word)
Flitwick = Vitious
Florean Fortescue = Florian Fortebraccio
Flourish and Blotts = Il Ghirigoro
Golden Snitch = Boccino d’oro
Grawp = Grop
Griffyndor = Grifondoro
Hedwig = Edvige
Hermione = Ermione
Hufflepuff = Tassorosso
Knight Bus = Nottetempo
Knockturn Alley = Notturn Alley
Lavender Brown = Lavanda Brown
Longbottom = Paciock
Madam Hooch = Madama Bumb
Madam Malkin = Madama McClan
Madam Pomfrey = Madama Chips
Madam Puddifoot = Madama Piediburro
Mad-Eye Moody = Malocchio Moody
Marauders = Malandrini
McGonagall = McGranitt
Mrs. Norris = Mrs Purr
Muggle = Babbano (fem. babbana, plur.m. babbani, plur.f. babbane)
N.E.W.T.s = M.A.G.O.
Nosebleed Nougat = Torrone Sanguinolento
O.W.L.s = G.U.F.O.
Ollivander = Olivander
Parvati Patil = Calì Patil
Peeves = Pix
Pensieve = Pensatoio
Pigwidgeon = Leotordo
Quaffle = Pluffa
Ravenclaw = Corvonero
Room of Requirement = Stanza delle Necessità
Shield Charm = Sortilegio Scudo
Skiving Snackboxes = Merendine Marinare
Slug Club = Lumaclub
Slughorn = Lumacorno
Slytherin = Serpeverde
Snape = Piton
Squib = Magonò
Stan Shunpike = Stan Picchetto
Sybil Trelawney = Sibilla Cooman
Terry Boot = Terry Steeval
The Burrow = La Tana
The Hog’s Head = La Testa di Porco
The Leaky Cauldron = Il Paiolo Magico
Three Broomsticks = Tre Manici di Scopa
Unbreakable Vow = Voto Infrangibile
Vanishing Cabinets = Armadi Svanitori
Weasley’s Wizard Wheezes = Tiri Vispi Weasley
Weird Sisters = Sorelle Stravagarie
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Netherlandic - Feb 16, 2006 3:37 pm (#269 of 334)
Am I glad that Half Blood Prince is Half Bloed Prins in Dutch!
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 16, 2006 11:35 pm (#270 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
In Spanish it's "El Misterio del Principe". More interesting they will release three Spanish versions to reflect the differnces in the Spanish speaking countries.
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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 6, 2006 8:00 am (#271 of 334)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Has anyone received their Spanish HP-Misterio yet? We first got a message that the book would not be a available, now the message it that the version we ordered would not be available. All of our past editions were by Salamader.
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Allacaya - Mar 12, 2006 5:20 am (#272 of 334)
I got Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in plattdeutsch. (That's a northern German dialect which is still spoken in some parts of northern Germany.) It's called "Harry Potter un de Wunnersteen".
I showed it to my greataunt, because she can still speak it. I was rather disappointed (at first). According to my her, they have apparently mixed the dialects together in the book . (There is not "one" dialect for the whole of northern Germany, but it differs from region to region.)
But then, maybe nowadays the differences are no longer there given the dialects have been mixed together in the last 60 years and not so many people speak it anymore.
On the other hand what was really hilarious, they translated "Fluffy" with "Plueschi" - hehe (from pluesch = plush).
Anyway, I feel in general you should not translate people's names. They are personal and part of their identity. It's like having to change your name when you immmigrate into a different county.
You could easily add a last page to the books with a translation of the names, so the word games are not lost, but the flair of the books is still there.
Nicknames and such are a different topic and of course spells and animalnames - o.k., but you do not change the rest of the setting, do you? It's still set in England. They still depart from Kings Cross in London. So why change street names if the action still takes place in Surrey or London? Or later Scotland?
If you'd transfer the whole setting into a different country...
How do you feel about that?
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septentrion - Mar 12, 2006 7:05 am (#273 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't mind that much if some names are changed on condition it's cleverly done. Take for instance Diagon Alley : there's a pun in it, some humour which deserves to be translated. About people's names, well I rather agree with you. But in Jo's world, some names just call for a translation. I regret Snape has been translated in Rogue in French, but Londubat for Longbottom (same meaning) just sounds right.
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wynnleaf - Mar 14, 2006 3:02 pm (#274 of 334)
I'm very curious to learn whether or not non-English versions have the part where DD tells Draco that they could fake his death. This is in the American version, but not the British and there has been a lot of speculation as to which version was the "correction."
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septentrion - Mar 15, 2006 12:00 pm (#275 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I don't have bought HBP in French yet but the french translation usually follows the british version. For example, in American CoS, Ron explains to Harry about apparition when they "borrow" the Anglia. That explanation isn't in the British version nor in the French version.
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John Bumbledore - Apr 12, 2006 9:00 pm (#276 of 334)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Oh, I have search to find translations of the word magic and if there is a correspondence between the translation and the number Mr. Weasley dials to ring the MoM from the phone booth. I have had no luck with my search so I pose the question to the experts that have posted to this thread. **Yes, I mean all of you are experts.** Thank you for any help.
The second part of this question is, do they translate Peeves name in non-English versions?
<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore
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azi - Apr 13, 2006 8:01 am (#277 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
John, in my version of PS in German, Peeves is just Peeves!
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John Bumbledore - Apr 13, 2006 9:12 am (#278 of 334)
"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Thank you, Azi. Your answer and some testing on Jo's website viewed in few different languages has satisfied my curiosity. Seems my above post was the second time yesterday that I made what I now understand to be unnecessary posts.
<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore
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azi - Apr 13, 2006 9:17 am (#279 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Posts are never unnecessary, John! We all have silly days anyway!
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septentrion - Apr 14, 2006 3:39 am (#280 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Peeves is also Peeves in French. As for the phone number, it's been simply translated from English without taking into consideration the french word.
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Lina - Apr 15, 2006 2:40 pm (#281 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, there are no JKR pages in Croatian, but I can tell you that the Croatian translator kept the numbers for "magic" in the book (maybe she knew that there will be the official site using that number some day ) and yes, Peeves is Peeves in Croatian too.
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Neville Longbottom - Apr 16, 2006 3:55 pm (#282 of 334)
In German they changed the phone number, so that it fitted "Magie" (German word for magic, as you probably guessed).
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Madam Pince - Apr 30, 2006 1:54 pm (#283 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
This isn't exactly a "translation" question really, but I couldn't think of a better place to put it...
I'm re-reading PoA, and there was something I've always wondered about. What exactly is a "fry-up"? Aunt Marge says "...it's normally just a fry-up for me..." implying that she just has a quick dinner since she's so busy taking care of her dogs, but I'm not familiar with that phrase. Is it one that is common only to Great Britain? Does it refer to frying something specific, like hamburgers?
Thanks in advance to anyone who knows!
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azi - Apr 30, 2006 2:16 pm (#284 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I take 'fry up' to mean a very fatty meal that lots of people eat here in the UK, including things like sausages, bacon, bread and butter or fried bread, possibly chips, fried mushrooms, grilled tomatoes and fried egg. Basically an English breakfast!
Hope that helps!
Edit - I forgot baked beans!
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Rea - Apr 30, 2006 2:25 pm (#285 of 334)
Oxford Advanced Genie: Fry-up noun (BrE, informal) a meal of fried food, such as bacon and eggs: It's not good for your heart to eat too many fry-ups.
As you said, Azi!!!
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timrew - Apr 30, 2006 2:51 pm (#286 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
It's tasty, though!
And you forgot the black pudding, azi! Don't tell the Americans what goes in it!
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azi - Apr 30, 2006 3:02 pm (#287 of 334)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Ooops, silly me! My lips are sealed...
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Madam Pince - Apr 30, 2006 6:11 pm (#288 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Can't fool me on that one. I already know!
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timrew - May 1, 2006 1:03 am (#289 of 334)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Is it banned in California, like smoking in a public place, Madam Pince?
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Madam Pince - May 1, 2006 11:00 am (#290 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Dunno, timrew, that's the other side of the world to me! I'm on the east coast... If all was right with the world, though, seems to me that it should be banned! It's got to be at least as bad for you as smoking!
Thanks for the "fry-up" info, guys! Very helpful! I guess when I'm thinking like Aunt Marge (ie: "I'm so busy that I just eat X rather than cooking,") then X = a bowl of cereal or perhaps a microwaved frozen dinner. That's truly no effort! Even with a "fry-up" you'd have the greasy pan to clean, and all the spatters on the stove and all... of course, Aunt Marge probably just lets Ripper lick the pans and the stove, so no bother to her....
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Finn BV - Jul 7, 2006 7:23 pm (#291 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Is Eileen Prince's last name translated in the foreign editions to be whatever the word 'prince' is in that language? For example, in Spanish, is it Eileen Príncipe? After all, then Snape wouldn't been the Half-Blood Prince anymore if Eileen kept an English name.
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TheSaint - Jul 8, 2006 3:25 pm (#292 of 334)
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Here is a nice list.
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Finn BV - Jul 8, 2006 9:12 pm (#293 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks for the list, TheSaint, but sadly, Eileen Prince is not on there.
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septentrion - Jul 9, 2006 4:10 am (#294 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Eileen Prince is still Eileen Prince in French, but then prince is the same word in French and in English.
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TheSaint - Jul 9, 2006 4:21 am (#295 of 334)
Yes she is Finn....Madame Pince.
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Finn BV - Jul 9, 2006 9:56 am (#296 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Thanks, septentrion. I suppose that doesn't definitively answer the question.
LOL, TheSaint, that's if you believe MPISM… Madam Pince is Snape's Mom… I'm waiting for some forumers from countries where Prince is not Prince!
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TheSaint - Jul 9, 2006 9:24 pm (#297 of 334)
ROFL...I have read that theory so much, I automatically made the connection! LOL
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Anna L. Black - Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am (#298 of 334)
I'm not completely sure, but if I remember correctly - they didn't translate her name in the Hebrew edition. She is still called "Eileen Prince", although the word for prince in Hebrew is nasikh (And in the book's title the word prince was translated as nasikh).
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Finn BV - Jul 10, 2006 6:36 pm (#299 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Hmm, interesting, Anna. I wonder if this is the same in other languages as well.
Psst, Saint, me too! I just wanted more proof.
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deletedaccount - Jul 11, 2006 6:50 pm (#300 of 334)
What is the Hebrew word for princess?
How does the Hebrew word for prince say that she's Snape's mother? I'm confused.
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Thoughts about Translations, Part 3 (Post 301 to 334)
Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:58 am
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 11, 2006 7:00 pm (#301 of 334)
The Hebrew word for princess is Sara or Sarah I believe because, the name Sarah in Hebrew means princess.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 8:05 am (#302 of 334)
You are right, Nathan, although this word isn't really used as "princess" in modern Hebrew.
Mezuzas -
I can understand why you are confused - what I wrote doesn't really explain how Eileen Prince was linked to the Half-Blood Nasikh And for that, the translator used Hermione's know-it-all-ness - when she tells Harry about Eileen marrying Tobias Snape, she says something along the lines of "Don't you see, Harry? Her surname is 'Prince', and 'Prince' means nasikh! Snape must have been proud ..."
(I might not remember the details correctly, as I didn't read the book in Hebrew - I only looked in the translation, when it was published, in order to see how they translated all that business with Eileen Prince)
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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 8:12 am (#303 of 334)
Yes - translators have it tough!
They may have to go back and edit all the books once we know the whole story!!!
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 12:03 pm (#304 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
I read something about the Russian books recently.
Apparently the official translations aren't that popular so fans are clubbing together to improve them.
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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 12:20 pm (#305 of 334)
Do all the translators work from an English language version? Which? American or British?
I was wondering if, for example, a translator used a French version to create, say, a German version, how many inaccuracies would then result?
Are the translations literal, or do the translators sort of rewrite the story to accommodate translation difficulties?
I know that reading a bible that has English on the left and Latin on the right can give different meanings.
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 12:37 pm (#306 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
The English and American-English books aren't that different are they? Just occasional words and phrases tweaked for the USA readers to understand JKR's meaning.
Why would a translator work from a translated text and not the original?
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Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 2:06 pm (#307 of 334)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 2:44 pm
Dr Filibuster -
Long ago, I've read bits of the Russian translations, on a site dedicated to finding all the mis-transalations in the Russian version of HP - and, well, it's a pretty lousy version. Different people translated different books (up to a point where different terms are used in different books for the same english word, I think); Names were translated so that they sound pretty stupid and not connected to the characters; and the overall language is low-level, so that the book loses JKR's touch completely (I believe it didn't happen in other translations, and least not this much).
Are the translations literal, or do the translators sort of rewrite the story to accommodate translation difficulties? - Soul Search
The plot, of course, remains the same, but little jokes like "Can I see Uranus too, Lavender?", and terms that sound good in English but lose their meaning in other languages have to be changed. Obviously, the result really depends on the translator.
EDIT: I felt an example was needed, so I looked for the site I mentioned. Here are a few examples:
Severus Snape is translated as "Zlodeyus Zley" in the first book - in English it would have sounded as "Evilius Evil". In the second book they changed his surname to "Snegg" (Sounds like "snow" in Russian.) I'm not sure what became of him in later books.
There's this quote from CoS:
'I think threatening Muggle-borns is far worse than brewing up a difficult potion.'
It was translated as: "But how else can you save the poor Muggles? Potion is the only solution." I'm sorry, but that just doesn't have anything to do with the original. And there are a lot more where that came from, unfortunately...
Here's another quote, PoA this time:
…and now lived in terror of anyone finding out that Harry had spent most of the last too years at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry.
Translation: "The Dursleys were horrified: God forbid, if somebody found out that their nephew studies at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry! What a shame for a decent family!"
In GoF, some characters had more than one name-translation: Neville had 2 surnames; so had Moody; Crouch calls Percy not only "Weatherby" but also "Teasley"; Pigwidgeon has 2 names; etc...
I'm sorry if I sound a bit harsh in this post, this subject usually makes me agitated - I'm always shocked at how they managed to ruin such a wonderful book.
EDIT 2: Oh, and S.P.E.W is "translated" to a word I wouldn't want my 6-year-old brother to hear until he's 20 or something (Alright, 14. And yet.)
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 2:29 pm (#308 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Thanks for the info Anna. I love the fact that the fans are taking direct action.
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Lina - Jul 13, 2006 3:23 pm (#309 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Actually, Dr Filibuster, it seems that the differences between British and American editions are not as minor as you think. The one that I recently discovered is rather bothering me a lot.
Maybe this is the place where we could discuss the English - English translations too.
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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 4:11 pm (#310 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Anna, thanks for your information. That's really insightful. Once I learn to speak Spanish fluently, I want to go retranslate the books! (I'm actually giving a shot at reading them in Spanish – boy is it tough!! )
Lina, in Croatian, how is 'Eileen Prince' translated, and what is the name of the book?
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Amilia Smith - Jul 13, 2006 5:03 pm (#311 of 334)
In GoF, some characters had more than one name-translation: Neville had 2 surnames; so had Moody;
Out of curiosity, did they give them patronymics (Neville Frankovich Longbottom), or did they switch last names in mid stream?
Mills.
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TheSaint - Jul 13, 2006 7:56 pm (#312 of 334)
I notice that everyone keeps say Eileen...isn't it Irma?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 13, 2006 8:13 pm (#313 of 334)
The Saint, Irma Pince is the Librarian at Hogwarts. Eileen Prince is the wife of Tobias Snape and mother of Severus Snape.
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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 8:29 pm (#314 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
(Hopefully, they're the same person. Sadly, we don't know that yet. )
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Lina - Jul 14, 2006 1:15 am (#315 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Finn, I kept non-answering to your question because I haven't read the book in Croatian yet. And I have been quite busy lately and quite tired when my Forum time would come, so didn't feel the energy to research the book. Sorry.
There is no such term as half-blood in Croatian, so the title is Harry Potter i princ miješane krvi which would mean - and the mixed blood Prince. (we don't capitalize the words in the title)
Now, Croatian word for Prince is princ, so I don't see that that could make many problems in translation. There is another word for prince but they are both equally good, so the translator decided for this one. (The same way as the Little Price is translated as Mali princ)
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Lina - Jul 14, 2006 10:20 am (#316 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
OK, I'm back again - after a research. According to the link that I've provided before, the Croatian translation is from the UK edition. But the cover is from the US edition. How strange is that?
And Eileen Prince's name in Croatian is just the same as in English - even without any explanation, it just must be obvious.
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Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 11:10 am (#317 of 334)
I was wondering.
A long time ago I had to read Dumas' "Ten Years Later Still" in French. I didn't get a lot of it, so re-read it in English. I realized that a translator does a lot more than translate the language, but also the culture. Knowing the French lauguage did not prepare me for the historical and cultural references in the original Dumas text.
In Harry Potter, we have two cultures. British, circa 1990's, for when Harry is at #4 Privet Drive. We get things like "Guy Fawkes," "hose pipe ban," "trainors," etc.
Then British, circa seventeeth century, for the wizarding world. Use of quills and parchment, Sir Cadugan, magical creatures from British literature, etc.
How do translators handle the cultural translation?
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TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 4:24 pm (#318 of 334)
Dang it! The thoery contamination gets me every time! I look at Prince and see Pince! ROFL
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Finn BV - Jul 15, 2006 3:56 pm (#319 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Soul Search, I would guess that the translators don't deal much with the culture. Basically, the books are British kids speaking the language that it's been translated into. Not, for example, Spanish kids that go to a school in the UK that speak Spanish. The culture is probably only translated for books that rely on it.
Lina, thanks. I suppose Prince is so close to princ that it makes no difference. But why didn't they just make her Eileen Princ? Things would have made so much more sense…
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Lina - Jul 18, 2006 4:25 am (#320 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, in the translations, the names get translated very rarely. Actually, there exists the surname Princ in Croatian, but then, as you said, it would not be a British character but Croatian and that would make no sense.
We are just not used to have translated names here, so I must say that I am surprised with the translations that changed the characters' names. Especially French translation where they changed the names of the characters but then left Mr or Mrs staying. They also left the English names for the streets. In Croatian translations, all the streets that could have been translated were translated. Like Privet Drive. Privet is a plant and in Croatian translation the name of that plant was used.
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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 10:03 am (#321 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, I can understand "Mr" and "Mrs." For example, in Agatha Christie books, the narrator refers to Poirot as "Msr. Poirot," not "Mister Poirot." It would sound odd to call him by an English/American title, which is why when a character says, "Mr. Poirot" it's weird.
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septentrion - Jul 18, 2006 12:22 pm (#322 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
but it may be nice for people who don't speak English to have some of the names translated, given the fact Jo used so much puns in her books. The first time I read the series was in French and I'd been delighted by the names, I found them so funny and I would have missed the puns totally if the translator had kept all the original names. About why Mr or Mrs had been kept in the translation, I suppose it was to give it an English touch. The translator even managed to translate Hogwarts and made the translation sound like an English name (Poudlard) at least to a French ear.
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Lina - Jul 18, 2006 2:45 pm (#323 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Indeed, how is Fleur's talking translated in French? It is not a problem to write Croatian with the French accent, but French with the French accent?
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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 3:58 pm (#324 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
septentrion, what exactly does "Poudlard" mean? Does it mean Hog + warts? Or something else, equally amusing, but sounding English?
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septentrion - Jul 19, 2006 5:05 am (#325 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Yes, Pou-d-lard is "wart of hog", and when you pronounce the final "d", it sounds English enough, so much it took me reading the English version to realise it wasn't English!
Fleur Delacour hadn't been translated, Delacour is a rather common name and Fleur is a French word, but I've never heard it used as a first name. The translator managed to give the impression of an accent, he created his own puns for that when Madame Maxime meets Dumbledore the 1st time. I found it a tour de force to give the impression of someone speaking with a French accent to an Englishman in a book written in French. He made DD speak of "chevaux" (horses) and Mme Maxime understand "cheveux" (hair). That was funny to read. As for the rest, ie the way Fleur speaks, I need to check my books which happen not to be with me right now.
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Ponine - Jul 25, 2006 5:10 pm (#326 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Translation!! My favorite subject Translations can indeed make or break any book, as far as I'm concerned. The Norwegian translations are by one of the more prominent Norwegian authors, but nonetheless, I can't stand his translations. They are written in a very colloquial tone, with some words being close to dialectical or slangish (not referring to speech patterns, which also are mimicked -- they don't count). JKRs language is beautiful, and at times quite advanced for books read by children. In my (relatively) humble opinion, the Norwegian version (the ones I have read), are dumbed down quite a bit, which really makes the books much more one-dimensional. One example that about killed me, was when (sorry, don't have either translation here) Hagrid carries the huge Christmas tree in the hall, and the only way Harry knew it was Hagrid was that Harry saw Hagrid's enormous boots. Well, in at least the first Norwegian edition of the PS, Harry recognized Hagrid because of the big boots sticking out from down there on the tree. It doesn't really translate into English because while the 'down there' phrase is childish in English, it is a phrase used by doctors and various body washes in Norwegian. Of course, the editors should probably have gotten a great big raspberry for that oopsie... :rant over, well, not over, but continued in my mind:
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TheSaint - Jul 25, 2006 10:04 pm (#327 of 334)
Hey...I just realized I can probably read HP in Norwegian while I am learning.
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Ponine - Jul 26, 2006 9:31 am (#328 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
You are learning Norwegian???? But, but, -- Why??? (Are you in Minnesota or North Dakota? Lykke til! And let me know if I can help
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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2006 12:01 pm (#329 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Probably has something to do with in-laws or such....
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Finn BV - Jul 26, 2006 6:28 pm (#330 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ponine, see TheSaint, "+ You Know You're A Harry Potter/Lexicon Fan When..." #392, 2 Jul 2006 6:58 am and read a bit further on!
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Ponine - Jul 26, 2006 11:12 pm (#331 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
:speechless: You mean to say there are more of us?!?! The Saintly Ones -- hvor i verden er dere??? And thanks Finn -- I'd be lost without you!
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TheSaint - Jul 27, 2006 6:44 am (#332 of 334)
Ponine - I am in Dallas.
Speaking of Translations...Can anyone translate the square in my avatar? It is driving me nuts. I have tried Magic Square...alas, they are not equal. I was very tempted to declare it a Lo Shu Square, with the zero representing its origins, but I am only starting to explore.
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darien - Aug 16, 2006 8:33 am (#333 of 334)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
post 291- Finn BV: Is Eileen Prince's last name translated in the foreign editions to be whatever the word 'prince' is in that language? For example, in Spanish, is it Eileen Prinipe? After all, then Snape wouldn't been the Half-Blood Prince anymore if Eileen kept an English name.
I am from Spain but I read the books in English, however I have looked in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (the spanish version of the lexicon) and she is listed as Eileen Principe
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I hope thats helpfull and sorry if the question has already been answered( that post is a bit old and i have not read everything after it)
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Finn BV - Aug 28, 2006 6:26 pm (#334 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Darien, thank you very much! Sorry I didn't respond to your post earlier -- I have been away.
I noticed this note beneath the text: Nota del Traductor: El apellido original es Prince, pero como perdería el misterio del libro si se mantuviese en inglés, hemos decidido traducirlo.
I would translate that as "The original last name is Prince, but so that the mystery of the book maintains (sustains) itself from English, we decided to translate it."
Just what I was looking for, thanks!!
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The Hebrew word for princess is Sara or Sarah I believe because, the name Sarah in Hebrew means princess.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 8:05 am (#302 of 334)
You are right, Nathan, although this word isn't really used as "princess" in modern Hebrew.
Mezuzas -
I can understand why you are confused - what I wrote doesn't really explain how Eileen Prince was linked to the Half-Blood Nasikh
And for that, the translator used Hermione's know-it-all-ness - when she tells Harry about Eileen marrying Tobias Snape, she says something along the lines of "Don't you see, Harry? Her surname is 'Prince', and 'Prince' means nasikh! Snape must have been proud ..."(I might not remember the details correctly, as I didn't read the book in Hebrew - I only looked in the translation, when it was published, in order to see how they translated all that business with Eileen Prince
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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 8:12 am (#303 of 334)
Yes - translators have it tough!
They may have to go back and edit all the books once we know the whole story!!!
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 12:03 pm (#304 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
I read something about the Russian books recently.
Apparently the official translations aren't that popular so fans are clubbing together to improve them.
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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 12:20 pm (#305 of 334)
Do all the translators work from an English language version? Which? American or British?
I was wondering if, for example, a translator used a French version to create, say, a German version, how many inaccuracies would then result?
Are the translations literal, or do the translators sort of rewrite the story to accommodate translation difficulties?
I know that reading a bible that has English on the left and Latin on the right can give different meanings.
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 12:37 pm (#306 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
The English and American-English books aren't that different are they? Just occasional words and phrases tweaked for the USA readers to understand JKR's meaning.
Why would a translator work from a translated text and not the original?
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Anna L. Black - Jul 13, 2006 2:06 pm (#307 of 334)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 2:44 pm
Dr Filibuster -
Long ago, I've read bits of the Russian translations, on a site dedicated to finding all the mis-transalations in the Russian version of HP - and, well, it's a pretty lousy version. Different people translated different books (up to a point where different terms are used in different books for the same english word, I think); Names were translated so that they sound pretty stupid and not connected to the characters; and the overall language is low-level, so that the book loses JKR's touch completely (I believe it didn't happen in other translations, and least not this much).
Are the translations literal, or do the translators sort of rewrite the story to accommodate translation difficulties? - Soul Search
The plot, of course, remains the same, but little jokes like "Can I see Uranus too, Lavender?", and terms that sound good in English but lose their meaning in other languages have to be changed. Obviously, the result really depends on the translator.
EDIT: I felt an example was needed, so I looked for the site I mentioned. Here are a few examples:
Severus Snape is translated as "Zlodeyus Zley" in the first book - in English it would have sounded as "Evilius Evil". In the second book they changed his surname to "Snegg" (Sounds like "snow" in Russian.) I'm not sure what became of him in later books.
There's this quote from CoS:
'I think threatening Muggle-borns is far worse than brewing up a difficult potion.'
It was translated as: "But how else can you save the poor Muggles? Potion is the only solution." I'm sorry, but that just doesn't have anything to do with the original. And there are a lot more where that came from, unfortunately...
Here's another quote, PoA this time:
…and now lived in terror of anyone finding out that Harry had spent most of the last too years at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry.
Translation: "The Dursleys were horrified: God forbid, if somebody found out that their nephew studies at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry! What a shame for a decent family!"
In GoF, some characters had more than one name-translation: Neville had 2 surnames; so had Moody; Crouch calls Percy not only "Weatherby" but also "Teasley"; Pigwidgeon has 2 names; etc...
I'm sorry if I sound a bit harsh in this post, this subject usually makes me agitated - I'm always shocked at how they managed to ruin such a wonderful book.
EDIT 2: Oh, and S.P.E.W is "translated" to a word I wouldn't want my 6-year-old brother to hear until he's 20 or something
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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 2:29 pm (#308 of 334)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Thanks for the info Anna. I love the fact that the fans are taking direct action.
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Lina - Jul 13, 2006 3:23 pm (#309 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Actually, Dr Filibuster, it seems that the differences between British and American editions are not as minor as you think. The one that I recently discovered is rather bothering me a lot.
Maybe this is the place where we could discuss the English - English translations too.
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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 4:11 pm (#310 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Anna, thanks for your information. That's really insightful. Once I learn to speak Spanish fluently, I want to go retranslate the books! (I'm actually giving a shot at reading them in Spanish – boy is it tough!! )
Lina, in Croatian, how is 'Eileen Prince' translated, and what is the name of the book?
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Amilia Smith - Jul 13, 2006 5:03 pm (#311 of 334)
In GoF, some characters had more than one name-translation: Neville had 2 surnames; so had Moody;
Out of curiosity, did they give them patronymics (Neville Frankovich Longbottom), or did they switch last names in mid stream?
Mills.
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TheSaint - Jul 13, 2006 7:56 pm (#312 of 334)
I notice that everyone keeps say Eileen...isn't it Irma?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 13, 2006 8:13 pm (#313 of 334)
The Saint, Irma Pince is the Librarian at Hogwarts. Eileen Prince is the wife of Tobias Snape and mother of Severus Snape.
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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 8:29 pm (#314 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
(Hopefully, they're the same person. Sadly, we don't know that yet. )
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Lina - Jul 14, 2006 1:15 am (#315 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Finn, I kept non-answering to your question because I haven't read the book in Croatian yet. And I have been quite busy lately and quite tired when my Forum time would come, so didn't feel the energy to research the book. Sorry.
There is no such term as half-blood in Croatian, so the title is Harry Potter i princ miješane krvi which would mean - and the mixed blood Prince. (we don't capitalize the words in the title)
Now, Croatian word for Prince is princ, so I don't see that that could make many problems in translation. There is another word for prince but they are both equally good, so the translator decided for this one. (The same way as the Little Price is translated as Mali princ)
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Lina - Jul 14, 2006 10:20 am (#316 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
OK, I'm back again - after a research. According to the link that I've provided before, the Croatian translation is from the UK edition. But the cover is from the US edition. How strange is that?
And Eileen Prince's name in Croatian is just the same as in English - even without any explanation, it just must be obvious.
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Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 11:10 am (#317 of 334)
I was wondering.
A long time ago I had to read Dumas' "Ten Years Later Still" in French. I didn't get a lot of it, so re-read it in English. I realized that a translator does a lot more than translate the language, but also the culture. Knowing the French lauguage did not prepare me for the historical and cultural references in the original Dumas text.
In Harry Potter, we have two cultures. British, circa 1990's, for when Harry is at #4 Privet Drive. We get things like "Guy Fawkes," "hose pipe ban," "trainors," etc.
Then British, circa seventeeth century, for the wizarding world. Use of quills and parchment, Sir Cadugan, magical creatures from British literature, etc.
How do translators handle the cultural translation?
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TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 4:24 pm (#318 of 334)
Dang it! The thoery contamination gets me every time! I look at Prince and see Pince! ROFL
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Finn BV - Jul 15, 2006 3:56 pm (#319 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Soul Search, I would guess that the translators don't deal much with the culture. Basically, the books are British kids speaking the language that it's been translated into. Not, for example, Spanish kids that go to a school in the UK that speak Spanish. The culture is probably only translated for books that rely on it.
Lina, thanks. I suppose Prince is so close to princ that it makes no difference. But why didn't they just make her Eileen Princ? Things would have made so much more sense…
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Lina - Jul 18, 2006 4:25 am (#320 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, in the translations, the names get translated very rarely. Actually, there exists the surname Princ in Croatian, but then, as you said, it would not be a British character but Croatian and that would make no sense.
We are just not used to have translated names here, so I must say that I am surprised with the translations that changed the characters' names. Especially French translation where they changed the names of the characters but then left Mr or Mrs staying. They also left the English names for the streets. In Croatian translations, all the streets that could have been translated were translated. Like Privet Drive. Privet is a plant and in Croatian translation the name of that plant was used.
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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 10:03 am (#321 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, I can understand "Mr" and "Mrs." For example, in Agatha Christie books, the narrator refers to Poirot as "Msr. Poirot," not "Mister Poirot." It would sound odd to call him by an English/American title, which is why when a character says, "Mr. Poirot" it's weird.
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septentrion - Jul 18, 2006 12:22 pm (#322 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
but it may be nice for people who don't speak English to have some of the names translated, given the fact Jo used so much puns in her books. The first time I read the series was in French and I'd been delighted by the names, I found them so funny and I would have missed the puns totally if the translator had kept all the original names. About why Mr or Mrs had been kept in the translation, I suppose it was to give it an English touch. The translator even managed to translate Hogwarts and made the translation sound like an English name (Poudlard) at least to a French ear.
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Lina - Jul 18, 2006 2:45 pm (#323 of 334)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Indeed, how is Fleur's talking translated in French? It is not a problem to write Croatian with the French accent, but French with the French accent?
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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 3:58 pm (#324 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
septentrion, what exactly does "Poudlard" mean? Does it mean Hog + warts? Or something else, equally amusing, but sounding English?
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septentrion - Jul 19, 2006 5:05 am (#325 of 334)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Yes, Pou-d-lard is "wart of hog", and when you pronounce the final "d", it sounds English enough, so much it took me reading the English version to realise it wasn't English!
Fleur Delacour hadn't been translated, Delacour is a rather common name and Fleur is a French word, but I've never heard it used as a first name. The translator managed to give the impression of an accent, he created his own puns for that when Madame Maxime meets Dumbledore the 1st time. I found it a tour de force to give the impression of someone speaking with a French accent to an Englishman in a book written in French. He made DD speak of "chevaux" (horses) and Mme Maxime understand "cheveux" (hair). That was funny to read. As for the rest, ie the way Fleur speaks, I need to check my books which happen not to be with me right now.
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Ponine - Jul 25, 2006 5:10 pm (#326 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Translation!! My favorite subject Translations can indeed make or break any book, as far as I'm concerned. The Norwegian translations are by one of the more prominent Norwegian authors, but nonetheless, I can't stand his translations. They are written in a very colloquial tone, with some words being close to dialectical or slangish (not referring to speech patterns, which also are mimicked -- they don't count). JKRs language is beautiful, and at times quite advanced for books read by children. In my (relatively) humble opinion, the Norwegian version (the ones I have read), are dumbed down quite a bit, which really makes the books much more one-dimensional. One example that about killed me, was when (sorry, don't have either translation here) Hagrid carries the huge Christmas tree in the hall, and the only way Harry knew it was Hagrid was that Harry saw Hagrid's enormous boots. Well, in at least the first Norwegian edition of the PS, Harry recognized Hagrid because of the big boots sticking out from down there on the tree. It doesn't really translate into English because while the 'down there' phrase is childish in English, it is a phrase used by doctors and various body washes in Norwegian. Of course, the editors should probably have gotten a great big raspberry for that oopsie... :rant over, well, not over, but continued in my mind:
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TheSaint - Jul 25, 2006 10:04 pm (#327 of 334)
Hey...I just realized I can probably read HP in Norwegian while I am learning.
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Ponine - Jul 26, 2006 9:31 am (#328 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
You are learning Norwegian???? But, but, -- Why??? (Are you in Minnesota or North Dakota? Lykke til! And let me know if I can help
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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2006 12:01 pm (#329 of 334)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Probably has something to do with in-laws or such....
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Finn BV - Jul 26, 2006 6:28 pm (#330 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ponine, see TheSaint, "+ You Know You're A Harry Potter/Lexicon Fan When..." #392, 2 Jul 2006 6:58 am and read a bit further on!
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Ponine - Jul 26, 2006 11:12 pm (#331 of 334)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
:speechless: You mean to say there are more of us?!?! The Saintly Ones -- hvor i verden er dere??? And thanks Finn -- I'd be lost without you!
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TheSaint - Jul 27, 2006 6:44 am (#332 of 334)
Ponine - I am in Dallas.
Speaking of Translations...Can anyone translate the square in my avatar? It is driving me nuts. I have tried Magic Square...alas, they are not equal. I was very tempted to declare it a Lo Shu Square, with the zero representing its origins, but I am only starting to explore.
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darien - Aug 16, 2006 8:33 am (#333 of 334)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
post 291- Finn BV: Is Eileen Prince's last name translated in the foreign editions to be whatever the word 'prince' is in that language? For example, in Spanish, is it Eileen Prinipe? After all, then Snape wouldn't been the Half-Blood Prince anymore if Eileen kept an English name.
I am from Spain but I read the books in English, however I have looked in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (the spanish version of the lexicon) and she is listed as Eileen Principe
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I hope thats helpfull and sorry if the question has already been answered( that post is a bit old and i have not read everything after it)
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Finn BV - Aug 28, 2006 6:26 pm (#334 of 334)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Darien, thank you very much! Sorry I didn't respond to your post earlier -- I have been away.
I noticed this note beneath the text: Nota del Traductor: El apellido original es Prince, pero como perdería el misterio del libro si se mantuviese en inglés, hemos decidido traducirlo.
I would translate that as "The original last name is Prince, but so that the mystery of the book maintains (sustains) itself from English, we decided to translate it."
Just what I was looking for, thanks!!
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