Dumbledore's Army

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:27 am

Dumbledore's Army (DA)
Tomoé - Feb 18, 2004 7:13 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:19 am

The DA, an illegal organization born from the need to learn somewhere else what a despotic teacher refuse to teach in class. This thread aim to analyze the recruiting, motivations, relationships of the members and the possible future of the DA.

Since we have no thread for the DA except for the traitor thing, I started this one.

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:30 am

Tomoé - Feb 18, 2004 6:19 pm (#1 of 1227)

Here's the discution about DA in the "Not Covered in Other Threads" thread.

Choices (post #165)

In reading about the forming of the D.A. group in OotP, I began to wonder why no Slytherins joined the group. All the members are in Gryffindor, Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. We have discussed the possibility that there are good Slytherins, so why didn't any of them want to learn DADA to fight Voldemort? Does their lack of interest tell us something significant about Slytherins as a group? Does their abscence from this group give us a hint about the future - will the three houses represented in the D.A. unite against the one house that is not affiliated with the group when it comes time for the big show-down against Voldemort? Does it indicate that maybe there aren't any good Slytherins and they will all be on Voldemort's side in the battle? Any thoughts......

Tomoé (post #166)

Who's in the DA and why did they learn about this secret club? There's 28 students in all, 29 after Finnigan joined them, 17 Gryffindors, 7 Ravenclaws and 5 Hufflepuff :

Harry, Ron and Hermione (the core of the group)

Ginny, Fred and George (Ron's family)

Jordan Lee (Fred & George's best friend)

Katie Bell, Angelina Johnson and Alicia Spinett (Harry, Fred and George's Team-mates and friends)

Lavander Brown, Parvati Patil, Dean Thomas, Neville Longbottom and later Seamus Finnigan (HRH's year house-mates)

The Creevey Brothers (As Harry's fan, it was safe to propose them to join, they wouldn't become traitors)

Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones and Justin Finch-Fletchley (Ernie and Hannah are good friends of HRH since CoS and they are prefects like Hermione and Ron)

Zacharias Smith (overheard Hermione as she talk with Ernie's gang)

Luna Lovegood (good friend of Ginny)

Michael Corner, Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot (Michael, who was Ginny's boy friend, brought his gang along)

Padma Patil (Maybe Parvati told her, maybe Hermione asked her, maybe Anthony the other prefect of Ravenclaw invited her)

Cho Chang and Marietta Edgecombe (I'm not sure how who told them, was it Padma, Hermione, Luna or Michael's gang)

Since it was a secret club, I don't think they openly offer each students to become member. All the members are friends's friends and I don't think Harry, Ron or Hermione would had any opportunity to ask the Slytherins. In my opinion, there was no Slytherin because none are close enough to Harry and friends. That could change next year, though.

Hermionefan(#1) (post #167)

There were no Slytherins because of course they weren't close friends of HRH and who could trust a Slytherin? Also, like anyone from Slytherin would want to join anyways.

Choices (post #168)

That would explain why so many students in Harry's year weren't in the DA and probably would've made (will make?) good members. It was a "my friends and your friends" club. Some of them overheard and joined, but most of them joined because someone else trusted them. Particularly among the Ravenclaws, I noticed that only four out of ten in fifth year joined. We know of six others. Certainly, more of those six would have probably loved to join the DA, but they weren't friends with either Padma, Anthony, Terry or Michael. Now, what was wrong with these other Ravenclaws? Ravenclaw is a House that prides itself on having intellectual students. Most of them are very individualistic. Padma Patil didn't have a date for the Yule Ball until Parvati suggested she go with Ron. I see the Ravenclaws as students who don't really get close among each other. When they have close friends, they are VERY loyal to them (hence Cho and Marietta).

I think that if the DA continues in the sixth/seventh books, other students will join and maybe the DA will become less exclusive. Other Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors will join. I can see the Slytherins being held back by Malfoy, though. He's a bully who, as he gets into the higher grades, will be able to dominate more and more Slytherins.

EDIT -- Is there a thread for the DA that doesn't have to do with traitors? These last couple posts should go on it.

Tomoe (post 169)

"Also, like anyone from Slytherin would want to join anyways."

Sure, Malfoy and co. wouldn't, but maybe some of the Slytherins would had like to, specially because its a secret society. We probably never know.

Edit : Maybe Corner, Goldstein, Boot and Padma asked a few other Ravenclaw, but they didn't want to join.

2nd edit : Padma didn't have a date for the Yule Ball until Parvati suggested she go with Ron, but Parvati didn't until Harry suggested her.

3rd edit : Just for the statistic sake, there's 17 Gryffindors, 7 Ravenclaws and 5 Hufflepuff; 1 second-year, 3 fourth-years, 16 fifth-years, 3 sixth-years and 5 seventh-years (I didn't count Smith since I don't know is year for sure); 13 girls and 16 boys.

Nathaniel Shafer - Feb 18, 2004 11:42 pm (#2 of 1227)

An interesting point not yet mentioned is that of those 16 fifth-years mentioned, six are prefects. Every prefect from every house except Slytherin joined DA. (Ron and Hermione from Gryffindor, Ernie Macmillan and Hannah Abbott from Hufflepuff, and Anthony Goldstein and Padma Patil from Ravenclaw.)

That indicates a couple of things. First, Umbridge is so polarizing that the prefects are willing to jeopardize their position to undermine her. And consequently these prefects are true leaders in that they are willing to work for what they believe in. None of them choose to be bystanders. This bodes well for Harry's fight against Voldemort.

Second, it indicates how much esteem Harry has among his classmates. There are many talented wizards in DA, but Harry is the unanimous choice to head it. This also bodes well. Harry may be modest, but even seventh years and prefects respect his abilities against the Dark Arts.

Neville Longbottom - Feb 19, 2004 12:37 am (#3 of 1227)

I don't thing there was anything wrong with the students, who didn't join. Those students joined:

The known Gryffindors, whom Harry and his friends probably trusted. Luna, Cho and Ernie, who all assured Harry, that they were on his side. Ernie's friends, who were probably trusted by Ernie. Marietta, who was (unluckily) trusted by Cho. Ginny's boyfriend Michael. His friends Anthony and Terry, who were probably trusted by him. That means it was a very close circle, that only includes Zacharias Smith, who overheard Hermione talking to Ernie.

Tomoé - Feb 19, 2004 4:04 am (#4 of 1227)

Good point, Nathaniel, I didn't went that far in the analysis of the implications of the prefects in DA.

To add to what Neville said, maybe some trustworthy Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws judged Harry out of his rockers, like Seamus, so Ernie and Michael didn't proposed them to join. Maybe they thought to try again as Seamus joined the groupe, but since it was the very day they get caught ...

Another interesting point is that we know most of the fifth-years DA members were in the Dueling Club. The 8 Gryffindors, Ernie, Justin, Hannah and the other unnamed Hufflepuffs who were in the library, as Ernie said 'We were all there. We saw what happened.' (UK CoS p.150), and Terry Boot. 12 out of 16, maybe more.

Choices - Feb 19, 2004 9:18 am (#5 of 1227)

Where it say CHOICES (Post #168) - what follows is not my post. I don't want to take credit for a post that is not mine.

Part of my point in my previous post at the beginning, was to show that Gryffindores, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs did not socialize with or befriend Slytherins as a rule. Other threads have proposed that members of the Marauders were in different houses (possibly one in Slytherin), but I think this shows that it isn't likely.

firebird - Feb 19, 2004 10:37 am (#6 of 1227)

Dumbledore's Army was the very reason I liked OoP so much, more than the other books. JKR just makes Umbridge so detestable and powerful (not in an admirable sense) that you wish anyone would just stand up to her - even if it's just behind her back, which is really the only way... a guerilla war, that is. Where later even the teachers (passively) and Peeves (actively) join in! MacGonagall was brilliant in her inspection - 'You see, I do not generally permit people to talk when I am talking.' lol

And magic is not so new to us anymore that we won't just find the book interesting if it were further learning of magic - esp after GoF where Harry learned all those spells for his third task. DA is such a marvellous idea! And for teenagers, it's perfect, you know, that you can oppose Umbridge-type authority. Just thought I'd ramble on about my favourite idea... forgive me.. =)

Dharma Spring - Feb 19, 2004 11:21 am (#7 of 1227)

Has anyone explored the idea that, in reference to the DA, that the Slytherins might not have any investment in what the group is moving towards. The Slytherins are of a background in the social structure that has quite a bit less to fear from the return of Voldemort than some of the other students.

The current group of Slytherins would not have been able to remember what life was truly like under Voldemort. Some of their parents are Death Eater's, some may have chalked it up to nonsense and others may feel protected by their pureblood heritage. The Sorting Hat does try to inform the kids that they need to go beyond their houses to form bonds, but the DA is the first time we really see that beyond Cho and Luna really trying to connect in a personal way to people outside their houses.

So what would the investment be for the Slytherins to socialize outside of their house? And how do, those who are so inclined, become motivated overcome the stigma of dark magic associated with their house when it is not affecting them at the moment? What motivation do they have to seek outside relationships and who could they bond with?

Just some thoughts and questions?

haymoni - Feb 19, 2004 1:30 pm (#8 of 1227)

Hermione actually started the group and I think her contempt for Malfoy keeps her from trusting anyone in Slytherin.

She couldn't even trust the hairs on Millicent Bulstrode's robe!!

Someone commented earlier on Harry's leadership and that even older students respected his abilities. I think the students that come from wizarding families already held The Boy Who Lived in high regard. I don't mean to take anything away from Harry though...

Choices - Feb 19, 2004 2:32 pm (#9 of 1227)

We already know that Slytherins are out to look after and protect number one (themselves)- thus they would probably not have any inclination to join a group whose purpose is to fight a threat to all the wizarding world. Their motto is probably, "every wizard for him/herself".

Madame Librarian - Feb 19, 2004 4:07 pm (#10 of 1227)

Don't forget that Umbridge creates the Inquisitorial Squad from the gang of Slytherins. I wonder if there will be some vestige of that group to harrass the DA, assuming it (the DA) still exists in future books.

Ciao. Barb

Dr Filibuster - Feb 19, 2004 4:26 pm (#11 of 1227)

I wonder whether Dumbledore will encourage the DA and In. Squad to shake hands?

He must be very concerned about the rift between Slythern and the others. I know it's always been there, but not as bad as this surely? I wonder what it was like during VW1? I bet he wlll be deeply saddened but not suprised to learn that all the Inq.Squad were Slytherins, and no Slytherins were in the DA.

If the DA continue to exist in any form then I think they must get a slytherin presence...which will cause great upset in the ranks.

Madame Librarian - Feb 19, 2004 4:31 pm (#12 of 1227)

There may be a forming rift in Slytherin now that some kids in that house have parents in Azkaban. Others may go against them (a way of looking out for themselves, I suppose) and latch onto the DA group. That might leave Draco to tighten the ranks of children of DEs to coalesce into a very nasty bunch. They have huge grudges to bear against anyone involved at the MoM battle, and I can see them seeking revenge in the worst way. Hogwarts might almost be a mini version of the bigger war outside its walls.

Oi.

Ciao. Barb

Choices - Feb 19, 2004 6:06 pm (#13 of 1227)

Hogwarts might almost be a mini version of the bigger war outside its walls......

Just what I was thinking Madame. What is going on at Hogwarts sort of mirrors what is going on in the larger wizarding world.

Loopy Lupin - Feb 19, 2004 6:54 pm (#14 of 1227)

I very much agree with Madame's theory about what certain DE's parents being in Azkaban will do to the dynamics of Slytherin. Perhaps once we make it to Hogwarts (or Diagon Alley) in Book 6, we'll learn that the DE's have been released (for one reason or another), but I really don't think so. I think that Lucius and others will remain in prison which will lead them (Lucius, in particular) to draw their kids more into the fray.

Nathaniel Shafer - Feb 19, 2004 11:27 pm (#15 of 1227)

Dr. Fillibuster -

"I wonder whether Dumbledore will encourage the DA and In. Squad to shake hands? "

Yes, I believe Dumbledore would encourage them to shake hands. Dumbledore is extraordinarily forgiving and protective of his students. Despite Marietta Edgecomb's betrayal, he would not allow Umbridge to "manhandle" her. Despite Umbridge's usurpation of his position, he went into the forest and saved her life.

That being said, I still don't see a reconciliation between the two groups. To a great degree Harry and Draco are the respective leaders, and their enmity shows no sign of ceasing. If anything, their hostilities have increased. After the battle at the MoM, Harry and Draco have two separate skirmishes. The first is broken up by the arrival of Snape and then McGonnagal. And Harry made no attempt to pretend that was doing anything other than preparing to curse Draco. (OP 38) The second time occurs on the train. Draco and company try to ambush Harry, but Ernie, Hannah, Susan, Justin, Anthony, and Terry see what is unfolding and they curse Draco first. (OP 38) This second time is more telling because these 6 DA members do not have a long standing enmity with Draco like Harry, Ron, and Hermione do. Harry's enemies are now the DA's enemies.

haymoni - Feb 20, 2004 5:40 am (#16 of 1227)

I keep asking myself why the DE's children would return to Hogwarts.

Dumbledore captured their fathers - why would the mothers then allow them to go to Dumbledore's school?

I see Dumbledore's Army taking this next year in school very seriously. They know the evilness of the Death Eaters; they know Voldemort is back. They'll want to learn everything possible.

If Malfoy and Company do not return to Hogwarts, the DA is free to focus on their studies. We may also get to meet the "good" Slytherins.

I'd like to see a Hogsmeade encounter with Harry & Malfoy. A wizard's duel off the school grounds??

fidelio - Feb 20, 2004 7:53 am (#17 of 1227)

I keep feeling that there's likely to be a split inside Slytherin, now that Lucius Malfoy is in Azkaban. As long as he was a free man and a power to be reckoned with, there was no way the students in that house were going to go against his son. However, now that Draco doesn't have Daddy for back up, he really has nothing beyond his own abilities [and the muscle provided by Crabbe and Goyle jr] to keep them in line. I can even see Snape telling him that this is his opportunity to prove what he can do "on his own"--making it sound like a test of Draco's qualities, rather than saying outright he's throwing him to the wolves. Any time you have a despotic regime, whether it's a country under a dictator, or just in secondary school, where no one will go against the "popular" crowd, there are people who don't go against it, but are ready to distance themselves as soon as the despot is weakened. Given this, I can see some Slytherins expressing an interest in the DA, whether they see it as a way to learn to protect themselves better in the coming fight [whatever side they end up on], a chance to gain allies against Draco, or because they've been maltreated and are looking for a chance to get even now that Draco can't fall back on Daddy. I can also see Dumbledore insisting that they be given a chance.

Anna L. Black - Feb 20, 2004 8:09 am (#18 of 1227)

Right now, the DA is secret, so 'good' Slytherins don't even know that it exists... But I won't be surprised if next year it will be open for everybody, and we'll see new members joining, from Slytherin as well.

haymoni - Feb 20, 2004 10:04 am (#19 of 1227)

Good point about the DA being secret - If a DA member tells a Slytherin - or anyone else - about the group now, will they get the Edgecombe Treatment???

popkin - Feb 20, 2004 10:29 am (#20 of 1227)

Since it's called "Dumbledore's" Army, I wonder if Dumbledore will take charge of it. Harry needs to learn more than he needs to lead right now. I'd like to see what he can accomplish under Dumbledore's direct instruction.

*¨*Hermione Weasley*¨* [/b]- Feb 20, 2004 10:35 am (#21 of 1227)

I don´t know if they will, since in Marietta´s case, DA was secret, Umbrige couldn´t know about it. But now Umbrige is gone, there´s no more reason for it to be secret. The point is, is there a reason for it to exist at all?? I mean, DA was formed because they weren´t learning anything about DADA, but now i believe they´ll have a decent professor. But then again, DA could work as a study group. Therefore, it wouldn´t be secret anymore, since study gorups are now allowed. And i liked that sentence that someone wrote here, "Harry´s enemies are now DA members enemies". I think that´s because everybody knows that their parents are Death Eaters, that´s all. Oh yeah, of course, and because they´re absolutely annoying.

Anna L. Black - Feb 20, 2004 10:59 am (#22 of 1227)

Good question, haymoni. I think they will, unless Hermione changes the spell (Something she'll probably do at some point, since they'll want to recruit new members anyway)

Detail Seeker - Feb 20, 2004 12:44 pm (#23 of 1227)

docendi discimus, popkin !

Czarina - Feb 22, 2004 7:46 pm (#24 of 1227)

(By the way, Post #168 was written by me, Czarina.)

If the DA becomes a legal, non-secret club, it makes sense for Hermione to remove any spells to ensure group secrecy. Recruiting new members would also mean that the group would become less exclusive (no longer just Harry's friends and friends-by-extension) and there would be fewer secrets to hide. Secrets shared by Harry, Ron, Hermione (and Neville and Luna too, I think) wouldn't be necessarily shared with the rest of the DA.

Luanee - Feb 22, 2004 10:07 pm (#25 of 1227)

I also think it may not be necessary to maintain the DA group if they can get a proper DADA teacher for the 6th year. After all, they can always practise the spells in class.

By the way, Detail seeker, can you translate what you were saying in post #23? Thanks.

Detail Seeker - Feb 23, 2004 6:35 am (#26 of 1227)

We learn by teaching, Luanee.

Just a reference of Harry needing to learn and thus not being able to (or better: not to be recommended to) teach the DA.

I agree, though, that with a good DADA teacher, Harry should focus on doing other things...

Mattew Bates - Mar 8, 2004 1:06 pm (#27 of 1227)

I think the DA will continue; its form will depend on the attitude of the next DADA teacher. If this yet-to-be-named teacher is in favor of it, it will continue as a sanctioned study group. If not, it will stay underground. About the only thing that could stop them from continuing is a request from Dumbledore himself.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2004 2:38 pm (#28 of 1227)

I suspect that it will continue, but as a study group. Dumbledore is now fully back in charge of Hogwarts again. Study groups ARE legal. And he will certainly wish to encourage both DADA expertise, AND inter-house relations.

Once it becomes known that the DA members all passed their DADA OWLs (even Neville), there are going to be a lot more students wishing to join. We will start seeing Slytherins coming over, thus helping to bring the four houses together.

Wanna bet one of the first will be Pansy Parkinson? She will be getting tired of slug-boy and will want to get to know someone with a future, someone who has actually accomplished something. :-)

Now, here is another idea. Maybe DA will morph into ADADA (Advanced Defense against the Dark Arts). Only the DA students would have passed their DADA OWLs with at least an E. Harry will become the teacher for the NEWT level students. This will force Harry to learn it much faster, AND give him unrestricted access to the Restricted Section in the library.

This would also help explain why this summer will be the shortest time Harry will spend at Privet Drive. Harry would learn of his appointment early on. He would come to Hogwarts early so he can get a head start on developing the curriculum.

Rosariana - Mar 10, 2004 6:24 pm (#29 of 1227)

I doubt that a student, even one so talented as Harry, will be allowed to teach a formal class before graduating, especially at the NEWT level.

I think that the DA will continue as a club or study group, and that Slytherins will join. It will no longer need to be secret, and it will unite the Houses. The DA was my favorite part of book five and I would hate it to discontinue.

Jac Black - Mar 10, 2004 7:33 pm (#30 of 1227)

In my opinion DA was the best thing about book five. I would love to see it grow and become popular among the students. Perfect Marcus: DA can't morph into a ADADA class because there is already a ADADA class. It is mentioned in SS chapter 12, page 198, lines 13-14 of the American version. Rosariana: I agree that DA will continue to be a club it is to important to just dissolve. Also I think it will expand and include members from all of the houses. This will be important because it will be the first step in uniting the four houses.

hopping hessian - Mar 11, 2004 10:41 am (#31 of 1227)

Perhaps that one Slytherin who could see the Therestials (sp?) will join. He and Harry have at least that in common and the fact that they both have witnessed death. I really hope to see a Slytherin who is separated from the faceless "gang" that always follows Malfoy around.

Dr Filibuster - Mar 11, 2004 2:13 pm (#32 of 1227)

If a typical sixth year student takes no more than 5 NEWT subjects, (5 were required for Healers, 4 for Aurers) then I would expect the classes to be smaller, or possibly include all 4 houses.

The bulk of the DA members are in Harry's year (16 of them?). I would expect all of them to opt for DADA NEWT.

It would be really interesting to see them together in one class with the addition of one solitary Slytherin student.

Would the Slytherin be intimidated? It would be obvious that the others knew each other and worked well together. Would the DADA abilities of the Slytherin be miles behind the others? Could the DA manage to overcome any prejudice and learn to get on with the Slytherin, even learn to trust them completely?

Would the teacher be intimidated? or even aware of the existence of the DA?

Chris. - Mar 11, 2004 2:15 pm (#33 of 1227)

If Dumbledore's Army (DA) continued, would Cho decide to come back after her rocky relationship with Harry and Marietta getting spotted (No pun intended ) as the spy?

virgoddess1313 - Mar 11, 2004 2:19 pm (#34 of 1227)

The DA members varied in age, so I don't think all of them could end up in the same NEWT level DADA class. I think the ones that are the same age might potentially be in the same class though.

And I don't think the teacher would be intimidated by them (although, this could depend on the teacher, of course), but more impressed than anything. If that were the case, barring any non-DA members in the class (or just people who don't know all the things the DA members learned, in other words)they would be able to cover even more advanced subjects and skim over what they already know.

I think the members of the original DA will definately play an important role in the future.

Dr Filibuster - Mar 11, 2004 2:35 pm (#35 of 1227)

Marietta certainly got spotted

I re-phrased my post after reading it. The vast majority of DA members were in Harry's year. I counted 16.

5 members have now left Hogwarts (Fred, George, Lee, Angelina, Alicia).

Cho and Marietta will be in their final year.

6th years will be: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville, Dean, Lavender, Parvati, Padma, Ernie, Justin, Hannah, Susan, Anthony, Michael, Terry, Zacharias...Oops and Seamus, that's 17.

Ginny and Colin will be Gryffindor 5th years, Luna a Ravenclaw 5th year.

No DA 4th years.

Dennis 3rd year.

No DA 1st or 2nd years.

So it's Harry's year that will stand out a mile, especially if they are all in one class.

Virogoddess, I really like your idea that they can skim lots of the syllabus and cover even more advanced subjects.

Is it too off topic to ask what will they learn? We know they can look at the Dark Magic books in the restricted section of the library (from the first book). Tonks mentioned disguise and concealment in Auror training, that would be fun to read about.

virgoddess1313 - Mar 11, 2004 2:40 pm (#36 of 1227)

You're right Dr. Filbuster... I should have counted them. For some reason I was thinking there were fewer soon-to-be 6th years. Silly me!

Madame Librarian - Mar 11, 2004 3:38 pm (#37 of 1227)

As Hopping Hessien said an interesting development could be if our mystery Slytherin became a DA member. How could this go well, you ask. Well, just as the Sorting Hat nearly placed Harry in Slytherin, or at least admitted that he'd fit well there, imagine a Slytherin too shy to debate with the Sorting Hat who really would have fit better in Gryffindor. For five years he or she has been stuck in a house that wasn't quite right, and is just now, with the recent events, gotten up the guts to do something about getting out of Slytherin, or at least countering the the image that all Slytherins are bad eggs.

Now if this were the same guy or gal who saw the thestrals that would be very interesting.

Ciao. Barb

Tomoé - Mar 11, 2004 4:56 pm (#38 of 1227)

I expect to find almost all the DA in the NEWT DADA group, if not all of them. I do think there will be only one groupe a DADA, as there's not much professions needing an OWL in DADA. I don't expect the group to be larger than 20 students, that the bigger groups we encounter so far. I do expect at least a Slytherin, not Malfoy and cronies, maybe Theodore Nott or/and Blaise Zabini. Maybe a Slytherin girl or two, to raise the number to 20.

The Slytherins or any other non-DA students will be less advanced than the rest of the class and Harry should be the most advanced of the group. Maybe the teacher will pair Harry with the less advanced student of the group. ^_^

Emily - Mar 12, 2004 2:41 pm (#39 of 1227)

Off topic, but in response to Tomoe's post, I wonder if, now that all of the WW knows that Voldie is back, DADA will be a mandatory class even for studentss who've already taken OWL's, just so the 'next generation' is ready in case of extreme emergency (like, Voldie attempting to break into the school, which was suggested somewhere else, can't remember where).

Zoe’s dad - Mar 16, 2004 2:28 am (#40 of 1227)

Just a thought, Maybe the Da will continue on after Harry is done with school, continually being lead by a student(someone like Ginny, for example) and selected members of this group will be asked to join the OoP. Maybe even Harry will take on the leadership of the OoP after Dumbledore decides it is safe for him to retire.

It struck a cord while I was watching Men in Black the other night that "K" was not teaching "J" to be a partner, but to replace him. Maybe Dumbledore is slyly training Harry to replace him as head of the OoP.

Just a thought.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 16, 2004 8:55 am (#41 of 1227)

I would have thought that the DA would dissolve, not because its legal, or because they'll be learning DADA, but because Harry either won't have the time, the patience or the desire to be around people to teach them. After the end of the fifth book I think its clear that Harry has a lot of things to work through and from past experience when Harry has one big thing weighing on his mind just about everything else is forgotten. Hermione and Ron will sense this and will let the DA relax significantly, or at least let Harry back off. I do expect the DA to carry on in some form though, but I think instead of Harry carrying them and helping the the members of the DA will rally round him- I see them as kind of forming a protective circle of friends in the next year of Hogwarts, especially those that accompanied him to MOM. They'll keep the bulk of the students away from Harry and they'll be the first to learn about the prophecy...

haymoni - Mar 16, 2004 9:00 am (#42 of 1227)

If they have a decent DADA teacher, the DA won't be necessary.

I can see the DA members trusting each other and wanting to work together.

More appearances from the Slug Brothers???

Madame Librarian - Mar 16, 2004 9:14 am (#43 of 1227)

Remember how guilty JKR sounded in the chat about how much she'd put Harry through so far? Maybe book 6 will have some relief for him. She'll write it so that some of the things he truly loves to do-- Quidditch, running the DA, hanging out with his close friends--will be included.

Ciao. Barb

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 16, 2004 9:27 am (#44 of 1227)

Harry is essentially a fictional character and JKR is more than willing to sacrifice his comfort for her story...

S.E. Jones - Mar 16, 2004 3:14 pm (#45 of 1227)

I'm afraid not, Barb. She sounded guilty, true, but she also said that, if she were Harry, she'd hide under her bed because she knows what's coming which makes me think it will be something bad....

World Day, March 4, 2004:
Leanne from Eastbrook Primary School - Hemel Hempstead: If you could spend a day in real life with one of your fictional characters, who would it be and what would you do? *Schools Competition Winner*
JK Rowling replies -> I think I'd most like to spend a day with Harry. I'd take him out for a meal and apologise for everything I've put him through.

bubbles: if you were harry potter for a day what would you do?
JK Rowling replies -> If I, personally, were Harry Potter I think I would go and hide somewhere, but that's because I know what's coming!

dsm: Are Harry's powers going to get even greater?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes, he's really progressing as a wizard now (which is lucky, because I know what's in store for him).

Madame Librarian - Mar 16, 2004 3:57 pm (#46 of 1227)

Thanks for providing the quotes, Sarah.

Chloe, of course, I know that JKR rules and that Harry is a fictional character. But what I was suggesting probably has more to do with us, the readers. I think the audience needs a break from unrelenting tension and sadness, not just poor Harry. The plot angles such as the DA and Quidditch provide the perfect side stories.

Ciao. Barb

S.E. Jones - Mar 16, 2004 4:33 pm (#47 of 1227)

Oh, there will certainly be side stories...

polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?

That's just one example, I'm sure....

timrew - Mar 16, 2004 4:43 pm (#48 of 1227)

I've always said, book 6 will be the dark before the dawn. Harry et al will be tested to the limit, Voldemort will be seen to triumph; people (including loved characters) will die; the DA (if it's still going) will be infiltrated by a traitor; and Harry will be at his lowest point in all of the books so far.

But the ending will suggest the light at the end of the tunnel.....

Iverson Godfrey - Mar 16, 2004 4:45 pm (#49 of 1227)

I think it would be interesting to see Dumbledore step in as leader of DA and really teach them a thing or two, not that he would have time.

Even though there is WWII to contend with, Hogwarts is still a school and I think there is room for clubs that focus on one subject or another that interests a group of students.

My prediction...the DA will live on, probably as a club. But, I think it make a great advanced DADA course.

I have the same feelings about book 6 as timrew. We're going to start seeing the WWI horrors first hand. It's gotta get worse before it can get better.

Choices - Mar 16, 2004 5:54 pm (#50 of 1227)

Remember at the end of book five when Bellatrix told Harry that when you use one of the unforgivable curses, it doesn't work unless you really mean it!! You have to hate and really want to hurt or kill the person for it to be effective. I think we are going to have to see Harry get a lot madder and really want to put an end to Voldemort before he will be able to use one of the unforgivable curses and really mean it. Unfortunately, he may have to go through a lot more hurt and pain and loss before he gets truly angry enough to kill.

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Tomoé - Mar 16, 2004 7:05 pm (#51 of 1227)

Or he could create another killing spell not based on sadistic pleasure. I'm sure Harry will do thing with a wand that no one had ever seen before.

hopping hessian - Mar 16, 2004 7:08 pm (#52 of 1227)

Unfortunately, he may have to go through a lot more hurt and pain and loss before he gets truly angry enough to kill.

This is unfortunate? We still don't know that he will actually have to kill Lord Thingy, at least by using an AK.

I do agree, however, that things are really going to go downhill from OotP. The DA might end up in the thick of things if Hogwarts is attacked. I cannot decide if attacking the school would be good or bad. There are definite advantages to "gettin' 'em while they're young", however, there is always DD to contend with (and the DA, McG, and Hagrid are no push-overs). IMHO, the DA will need to prepare for attacks other than full-frontal. If the DEs attacked, I think it would be something subtle, and while the DA can handle wand-fire, can they handle evil mind games?

Dan Wells - Mar 16, 2004 7:52 pm (#53 of 1227)

hopping hessien, I'm afraid that the kids could not handle adult-level, focused, malicious mind games. The kids range in age from 12 or 13 to 17 or 18. With hormones exploding all over, the stress of OWLS and NEWTS, dating, worrying over who likes who as a normal batch to teenagers PLUS VWII they are primed for falling to mind games.

Heck teenagers are all about mindgames just between themselves! The Death Nibblers can wreak havok with the DA if they have outside, adult direction. Reigning in the kids of the new prisoners of Azkaban would be the hardest part, since a simple fire-fight would pull the DA together again.

Scary thought, but likely fun to read!

Iverson Godfrey - Mar 16, 2004 10:29 pm (#54 of 1227)

I know Harry tried the unforgivable on Bellatrix, but I don't think he will use one on Voldemort. I think Harry is going to rise above that as he matures a little more.

hopping hessian - Mar 17, 2004 5:59 am (#55 of 1227)

hopping hessien, I'm afraid that the kids could not handle adult-level, focused, malicious mind games. -Dan Wells #53

Exactly. If the DEs were smart, that is how they would combat the DA/infiltrate Hogwarts. They have to know that it's a good guy stronghold and I don't think that an up-front attack would work.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 17, 2004 6:30 am (#56 of 1227)

Didn't we always hear that Voldemort was too afraid to attack Hogwarts because Dumbledore was there... is that going to change now that Harry's there too? Would Voldie try and lure Harry away from protection once again... or just try and invade the school?

I deffinatley think more mind games are in store- the books have all been about solving the next problem, not defeating the next bad guy, so I odubt that we'll see a serious head on out and out wizarding battle untill the final showdown in book seven (if it even happens there)

S.E. Jones - Mar 17, 2004 12:39 pm (#57 of 1227)

I thought it was that he was too afraid to directly attack Hogwarts with Dumbledore there...he still might try attacks that include division by mind games and the like....

haymoni - Mar 17, 2004 12:58 pm (#58 of 1227)

Hagrid said it, didn't he? Something about too many people being loyal to Dumbledore there?

hopping hessian - Mar 18, 2004 6:19 am (#59 of 1227)

So, the DEs must try to take DD's support away and divide the school. One hopes that the DA will be the instrument to combat this and keep the houses united as the Sorting Hat said. They really need a Slytherin.

Czarina - Mar 18, 2004 11:21 am (#60 of 1227)

Maybe now that the entire wizarding world is involved, a Slytherin or two will join the DA because the Voldemort scare has become their business. Slytherins seem to either make things their business if it will ultimately benefit them, and stay out of other people's business otherwise. Now that this is a widespread crisis, there might be incentive for them to join.

Vern Afanofhp - Mar 21, 2004 5:27 pm (#61 of 1227)

I think we will see a lot more of the DA in books 6 and 7 for a couple of reasons..

The Sorting Hat said the School should unite. The DA is the only thing that I have read about in the books that is doing anything to unite the school.

The battle at the MoM happened at the end of the OoTP. For this reason alone, we will hear about it in book 6.

There are a number of passages throughout the books that talk about the similarity of Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort has gathered followers one way or another. I think Harry is doing the same, wether he is aware of it or not.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 22, 2004 11:29 am (#62 of 1227)

Vern Afanofhp: "There are a number of passages throughout the books that talk about the similarity of Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort has gathered followers one way or another. I think Harry is doing the same, wether he is aware of it or not."

Yes, I think you have something there.

Marcus

Zoe’s dad - Mar 22, 2004 8:35 pm (#63 of 1227)

It think even if Harry is unaware of it, others around him are not. Dumbledore is VERY aware of it. Hermoine, by suggesting that he teach them DADA, has done as much or more than anyone in moving this forward. At the battle at the MOM, everyone followed Harry's leadership like it was the natural and correct thing to do. I can easily see the members of DA becoming the next Order of the Phoenix.

Dan

virgoddess1313 - Mar 24, 2004 6:23 pm (#64 of 1227)

"I can easily see the members of DA becoming the next Order of the Phoenix."

I agree 100%. I don't believe for a second that the fall of Voldemort at the end of the series will end the need for a group like the Order of the Phoenix. There will always be various threats to the wizarding world, just like in reality and who better to inherit the task of fighting back againt them than the members of the D.A.? No doubt they already have an advantage over the other students their age, I can see Dumbledore welcoming them intot he Order with open arms when the graduate from school.

Sharker11 - Mar 25, 2004 2:14 pm (#65 of 1227)

I'm kind of hoping we don't see more manipulation by Dumbledore. It was Umbridge's rule about no student groups, not anyone else's. So I don't think in the 6th year any of teachers are going to be involved with the DA. This doesn't mean their will not be new members or slytherins, but I don't think the teachers are going to be forcing school unity. That would only cause the students to be unified against the teachers.

Constance Vigilantia - Mar 26, 2004 7:39 pm (#66 of 1227)

Just a quick point, one that I didn't see posted anywhere else. Why would the Slytherins bother joining? Voldemort is working in their best interests. There's no motivation when they have the most to gain from his activities.

urzafyffe - Mar 26, 2004 7:49 pm (#67 of 1227)

Sometimes the best offense is a good defense. So learing every thing you can always can improve your power.

Iverson Godfrey - Mar 26, 2004 8:15 pm (#68 of 1227)

Constance Vigilantia: Just a quick point, one that I didn't see posted anywhere else. Why would the Slytherins bother joining? Voldemort is working in their best interests. There's no motivation when they have the most to gain from his activities.

I guess this could be true if they were all evil. But even if they are, the world isn't made up of good people and death eaters. Voldemort is only working in his own best interest and I think there are at least some Slytherin's who would fear Voldemort just as much as your average Hufflepuff.

OkieAngel - Mar 26, 2004 10:20 pm (#69 of 1227)

I'm gonna throw my hat in here and say that I think that the DA will be back as a legitimate study group, which would make it open to all students and could require a teacher sponsor. Now what if,in the spirit of unity, Dumbledore asks Snape to be the teacher sponsor with the hope of drawing in the Slytherin crowd?? Snape has always wanted the DADA position, so I could see him really wanting to do this, especially since he could undermine Harry. I just think that would keep the whole HRH vs. Snape dynamic drawn extremely taut. As for good Slytherins, we've all heard that they exist somewhere, so it's quite possible, I suppose. Then again, so is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 27, 2004 3:57 am (#70 of 1227)

# shudders in sympathy for Harry is Snape ever lands that position* You've seen how they are together, even one on one when they're working for the same thing- they just can't get on! it would be the worst thing DD could do because Harry would probably end up getting worse if instructed by Snape... that's no offence to either of them, and probably neither of thier faults, its just who they are.

hopping hessian - Mar 27, 2004 6:04 am (#71 of 1227)

Why would the Slytherins bother joining? Voldemort is working in their best interests. There's no motivation when they have the most to gain from his activities. [Constance Vigilantia #66]

I guess this could be true if they were all evil... Voldemort is only working in his own best interest [Iverson Godfrey #68]

I agree. If we simply assume that all Slytherins are evil law-breakers than we are just as prejudiced as the wizards who think that muggle-borns are inferior. I believe (and hope) that there are descent Slytherins out there that might be ambitious and a little rule bending, but not evil. Besides, what does Voldemort really do for them anyway? He's just an evil psychopath. Even Hitler, another evil psychopath, at least re-built the German government. What has Lord Thingy done? Jack squat.

Madame Librarian - Mar 27, 2004 6:25 am (#72 of 1227)

OkieAngel, your idea that DD would ask Snape to be DA sponsor made me think that the anger Harry felt with DD in OoP ain't nothing compared to what he'd feel if this were to happen. Whoa!

Slytherins are out for themselves. Some may be drawn to the DE philosophy, but some may not see it as the smartest, most self-serving way to get what they want. Remember, what Sirius said at the dinner table in the beginning of OoP, that Voldie's tactics in recruiting follower involved a lot of threats, blackmail, torture and similar methods. Doesn't sound like a lot of willing joiners. I can easily see enough Slyths being just as happy that Voldie not be able to gain control. Some might be willing to act on this and figure the DA (if it continues) is the smartest avenue to accomplish this.

Ciao. Barb

Choices - Mar 27, 2004 9:06 am (#73 of 1227)

I really can't see the DA allowing Snape to become their sponsor. They founded the group and I would think they feel somewhat possessive about their organization. They did very well without help before and since Snape isn't exactly Mr. Popularity with any house except possibly the Slytherins, I don't think they would stand for him being made the head of their group. All the members loved the group and enjoyed learning from Harry and Snape would cast a definite pall over them and make their gatherings less than enjoyable.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 27, 2004 5:16 pm (#74 of 1227)

I, like most of you here, want DA to remain active. It is just too good of a thing to let go. It brings students of multiple houses together. It provides other students an opportunity to develop serious DADA skills. It also has Harry starting to gather supporters around him in parallel to Tom Riddle and Dumbledore. DA is just too juicy of a concept to give up easily.

I also like the Room-of-requirement. Just think how much easier it would have been for Harry during the Triwizard tournament to walk past it saying, "I need a room where I can study dealing with dragons.", or, "I need a room where I can study working underwater." Those shelves and shelves of DADA books that really got Hermione going are just too valuable of a resource to let go.

But we are all faced with the same dilema -- what would be the motivation to continue? DA was born as a direct response to a truly horrible DADA teacher. The majority of the members were fifth years preparing for their OWLs. It was also a bit of teenage rebellion showing up.

All these reasons have been removed to some extent. Dumbledore is now completely back in charge of Hogwarts. I suspect that he won't have any difficulty getting a decent DADA teacher this year. The Ministry is going to want to make sure of it, even if they have to assign an auror to do it. It is no longer OWL year for the majority of DA members. They are going to be concentrating on their NEWTs, of which DADA is only a small part.

I have thought long and hard on all the theories and ideas that have been posted here. I tend to think the simpliest idea is usually the right one, and I think the simpliest is that DA will become the on-campus DADA club.

I would think it was likely that there are clubs that allow students with a real interest in any given subject to meet and delve into it deeper than the core curriculum covers. Why not an Astronomy club or an Herbology club, for instance. (Neville Longbottom could be president of that last one.)

Club-membership provides greater access to both the subject's professor and the resources that are commonly kept off-limits to most students. Astronomy club-members get to use the Astronomy tower more nights of the week and would be able to schedule its best telescope which is normally offlimits to students.

With the war starting, there is going to be a strong emphasis on the need for defense. A DADA club could be a popular one, especially one headed up by Harry Potter. They would have access to the Restricted Library Section. They would have access to the Room-of-Requirement.

Maybe this is why Harry will spend so little time at Privet Drive this summer. Dumbledore will ask him to be President of the DADA club, and he requests that Harry come to the castle early to start boning up on the subject.

So, how about it? Can you guys poke any holes in it? I can't.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 28, 2004 1:26 am (#75 of 1227)

I love the possibility that they will get into the restricted section... or maybe through the room of requirement they already have done so unwittingly.

If the DA does carry on I don't think it will need much of a reason to do so- throughout OoP the fifth years in particular were less and less concerned about training for their OWLS and more interested in actually defending themselves. Some thing about being around Harry possibly convinced them that Voldie was back (I mean really drive the idea home) and so they knew that preperation was needed. And so the DA would continue because I can just imagine the amount of students coming up to him in the first week of term (having probably heard about the DA at the end of last term) asking to join or asking for Harry's help.

I'm wary to say that Dumbledore would put Harry in a position of authority- remember he thought Harry would have too much to worry about to be a prefect. And I really don't think Harry would have come out of his bad mood entirely by the start of the next book- so I don't know how willing he's going to be to continue with the DA... But the relentless interest from fellow students may annoy Hermione so much that she forces Harry to continue...

Prefect Marcus - Mar 28, 2004 7:25 am (#76 of 1227)

Chloe Chandler - "I'm wary to say that Dumbledore would put Harry in a position of authority- remember he thought Harry would have too much to worry about to be a prefect."

True. But what Dumbledore said in effect was that he didn't want to add to Harry's burden. Making Harry offical head of the DADA club would not add to his burden since Harry already is. If anything, making it an offical club will make life easier for Harry if DA is to continue.

Choices - Mar 28, 2004 9:18 am (#77 of 1227)

I don't think being head of the DA would add to Harry's burden, on the contrary, I think having his friends and like-minded students to practice DADA with would make it easier for him.

I Am Used Vlad - Mar 28, 2004 9:29 am (#78 of 1227)

Teaching DA also helps Harry become a stronger wizard, so I would not compare it to being made a prefect, which would waste Harry's time and do nothing to help advance his skills.

hopping hessian - Mar 28, 2004 2:45 pm (#79 of 1227)

Harry also seemed to be in a better mood while teaching the DA. Perhaps because it made him feel like he was doing something. The DA helped keep him from despair and kept him focused. IMHO, he needs to have it.

Choices - Mar 28, 2004 4:24 pm (#80 of 1227)

I agree Hopping Hessien - I think Harry was feeling somewhat left out of things and teaching the DA was definitely a help to him - made him feel involved and also helped him to feel he was doing something to defy Umbridge and get back at her.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 29, 2004 5:30 am (#81 of 1227)

I admit, that being around his friends cheered Harry up, and doing defence spells- which he's always enjoyed and been good at- cheered him up too. But by the end of the fifth book Harry was so mixed up he couldn't sit still, or settle to anyone thing, or even comfortably be with Hermione and Ron... and I don't think he's going to be ready for any position where a large(ish) group of people are focused on him and looking to him for help.

hopping hessian - Mar 29, 2004 6:04 am (#82 of 1227)

Well, in her 3/4/04 interview, JKR said something along the lines of Harry getting his act together in the next book because of the war. Perhaps over the summer, when he has had time for everything to sink in, he'll be ready for the DA. I'm not saying everything will be happy and normal in Harryland, only that he will be able to cope better. Personally, I see the DA helping him. Harry seems like a task oriented guy. He needs something to focus his energies on to keep from a break-down/depression/despair/whatever. Now, after the war is over (if he's still alive) he might have the big break-down, but who knows.

Mellilot Flower. - Mar 29, 2004 6:10 am (#83 of 1227)

Won't that be a cheery sequal?? hmmm.... I suppose it wouldn't do to have Harry moping while there's a war going on that he's supposed to win... and it would make for a very inactive book...

Choices - Mar 29, 2004 9:01 am (#84 of 1227)

I want to believe that what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. So, I have hope that Harry will come out of this in one piece and mentally sound and he will become an awesome auror.

Nymphadora - Mar 29, 2004 12:22 pm (#85 of 1227)

Harry definitely seems to me like a person who will fight when fight is at hand, and have the nervous breakdown when the danger is removed. As well as the person who needs to keep his mind busy especially when he's miserable. I think that, should the DA be resolved completely, he will feel useless and take it as a personal insult, even if he was dragged into it in the first place - he's the kind of person who, once having cared about something, will think of it as his own, and be prepared to fight for it to the end.

S.E. Jones - Mar 29, 2004 11:20 pm (#86 of 1227)

Chloe Chandler: ...But by the end of the fifth book Harry was so mixed up he couldn't sit still, or settle to anyone thing, or even comfortably be with Hermione and Ron... and I don't think he's going to be ready for any position where a large(ish) group of people are focused on him and looking to him for help.

hopping hessien: Well, in her 3/4/04 interview, JKR said something along the lines of Harry getting his act together in the next book because of the war.

What if the DA is how he gets his act together? He may not be ready to lead the DA at the beginning of the book and they may continue on under someone else's leadership (perhaps Hermione) but it will be their constant presence around him that will help him deal with Sirius's death and the prophecy....

hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 5:51 am (#87 of 1227)

That is exactly what I think. Harry needs the DA to keep him focused. I'm really not sure about Hermione leading though. I really don't think she has what it takes to be a good teacher/leader. Just because she's smart doesn't mean that she would be good at teaching.

Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 6:20 am (#88 of 1227)

In response to Hopping, above, I would say that Hermione has already been a leader. She just does it in a quiet way.

Hermione is the mistress of organization. She came up with the idea to learn DADA on their own, got the word out,chose the location for the first meeting (ok, that wasn't the best choice!), made sure they were following the "letter of the law" so as to avoid trouble, jinxed the parchment to keep the DA secret, and suggested formally electing Harry the leader. Pretty decisive leadership to me. As to her teaching ability, Hermione often spots (especially with Ron!) what the errors are in Charms class and gives advice to fix it. Two examples of this are "Wingardium Leviosa" and "Silencio." She also corrects Harry's and Ron's homework, and attempts to help them organize themselves by giving them the annoying homework planners for Christmas.

A good leader recruits the best talent for the job--and Hermione insisted that Harry be the teacher for the DA because he's the best man for the job.

Choices - Mar 30, 2004 9:38 am (#89 of 1227)

Catherine - Wonderful comments about Hermione - you are so right. She is a real leader because she knows how to delegate and how to get the job done. She also doesn't go blindly into anything. She has a real handle on the situation before she jumps in and she tries to temper Harry and Ron.

hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 10:27 am (#90 of 1227)

I don't doubt her abilities, just her people skills. Yes, she helps people a great deal, but she often ticks them off in the process. She's a good organizer and I think a better "sub-commander" for Harry than Ron, but I still don't see her as great long-term leadership material. I can see an army following her to the gates of...where ever Voldemort lives.

Padfoot - Mar 30, 2004 10:51 am (#91 of 1227)

I agree with Hopping Hessien. She is really valuable to Harry as his sidekick. I don't see her as a leader though. For that matter I don't see Ron or Neville as a leader either. I love all those characters as they have been written. Harry needs their support and help. We can't have too many leaders here or who would follow?

Prefect Marcus - Mar 30, 2004 11:11 am (#92 of 1227)

Oh, I don't know about Neville. Now that he is getting confidence and growing in power, he might surprise us all by becoming a leader in his own right.

I suspect he might become a leader in DA. He will be loyal to Harry to the end.

Detail Seeker - Mar 30, 2004 2:29 pm (#93 of 1227)

Hermione, I think, does not care who leads DA under her....

Earnestly, she is the motor behind the the scene, but she does not like to do it open - if for the knowledge, that Harry does it better, the knowledge, that being herself would perhaps ruin things is unclear. But she organizes everything. So she is "Chief of Staff" - a veeeerryyy powerful position, but not in the lmelight An old word from the Old German Army (pre 1914): "Officers in the General Staff have no name."

Choices - Mar 30, 2004 6:00 pm (#94 of 1227)

I agree with you all - I see Hermione as a leader, but not THE leader. I see her more as a power behind the throne and I think that's the way she likes it.

S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 6:36 pm (#95 of 1227)

I wasn't referring to her as a permanent leader or anything, just someone who'd step in and help keep everyone together and around Harry for support until he starts to deal and can step back in. A kind of leader pro tempore.

hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 7:15 pm (#96 of 1227)

Yes, but just because she is able, does it mean that people will follow her? I just can't see her inspiring that sort of following the way that Harry does. She might be a temp as you said until Harry comes in, but I don't think anyone would like it. Besides, do we really know that Harry won't be able to take the reins right off the bat? Perhaps he'll use teaching the DA as an escape from dealing with the pain of losing Sirius and the knowledge of the prophecy just as he used it as an escape from Umbridge.

PS: In my earlier post it should be "...can't see an army following her..."

S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 7:38 pm (#97 of 1227)

Um, that was sort of my point. What if Harry isn't up to leading/teaching the DA at the start of Book 6? What would happen to them? I was just suggestion one possibility....

Take another look at my post #86.

hopping hessian - Mar 31, 2004 5:56 am (#98 of 1227)

Yes, I had finally gotten your point and was in agreement with you. Sorry, too many college papers, I don't know what I'm writing half the time. I just think that Harry will be up to, or at least will force himself to take on the DA again. Or maybe Luna can be the leader Smile

Choices - Mar 31, 2004 8:45 am (#99 of 1227)

You know, I think the kids are more accepting of Hermione now and see her less as an uppity show-off. She changed her attitude after the troll fiasco and became more of a team player with Harry and Ron. During the organization of the DA she showed her talent and magical ability (like with the coin that told when the next meeting would be and the jinx that showed up on Marietta when she told on them) and I think the DA members recognize her abilities and respect her more now. I believe they would accept her as a temporary leader if Harry couldn't do it immediately.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 31, 2004 11:02 am (#100 of 1227)
Edited by Mar 31, 2004 11:03 am

Continuing on the idea that DA will morph into the DADA club:

It will quickly become "the" club to join. Since it is the most prestigious organization on campus, a number of Slytherins will wish to join. After a rough period, they will become an integral part of it.

Since Hermione and Neville are the best after Harry, they will have high rank in the club. It is likely we will see a talented Slytherin as a high ranking member, as well(shades of Snape at Hogwarts).

If Harry is betrayed, it will be by a member of DA, most likely one of the new members.

I can see Harry giving up Quidditch for DA. What happened between Harry and Cho will happen to him and Quidditch. It will become a part of his past. He has moved on.

Marcus

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Nymphadora - Mar 31, 2004 1:34 pm (#101 of 1227)
Edited by Mar 31, 2004 1:34 pm

Marcus said:

I can see Harry giving up Quidditch for DA. What happened between Harry and Cho will happen to him and Quidditch. It will become a part of his past. He has moved on.

No, I don't think Harry will ever quit Quidditch. It was the first thing in the WW that gave him an identity, a sense of belonging, and that felt natural. Even in GoF, when he has been at Hogwarts 3 years already, the only thing he can think of as being good at is flying! In OotP again, he was devastated for having been excluded from the team, and aching to get into the field again!!

He won't give up Quidditch, I'm sure.

Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 3:13 pm (#102 of 1227)

Not after his ban, he couldn't play for 10 months! I hope he won't be rusty.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 31, 2004 4:06 pm (#103 of 1227)

There is no argument that Quidditch has been and still will be an important part of his life. But he only has so many hours every day to invest in his pursuits. Will he be willing to continue to spend the time and effort needed to play at House-team level, or will other interests (such as D.A.) intrude?

I can't help but think he will decide that other things are more important and urgent than Quidditch no matter how much he loves the game.

Detail Seeker - Apr 2, 2004 12:48 pm (#104 of 1227)

Harry thinks a lot about responsibility. So, he will not actively quit Quidditch, when he know, that he is needed there. So, for letting this idea be propable, JKR will have to introduce a lot of extraordinary good Quidditch players in the next two books.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 2, 2004 1:25 pm (#105 of 1227)

Detail Seeker - "Harry thinks a lot about responsibility. So, he will not actively quit Quidditch, when he know, that he is needed there."

Very true. Then again it would be a ready source of conflict between him and his fellow Gryffindor students if he chooses to drop it, and they still need him.

It all depends upon how Rowling wants to play it.

prof sprout - Apr 2, 2004 5:44 pm (#106 of 1227)

What does Rowling have to do with it, its Harry's decision Surprised

)

I don't see him quitting quidditch willing. They made a point to say that Ginny didn't want to stay seeker and that she wanted to be chaser.

Just my two Knuts

Choices - Apr 2, 2004 6:07 pm (#107 of 1227)

All work and no play will make Harry a dull boy.....so to speak. I think Harry needs Quidditch - not only is it a diversion, but it helps Harry stay sharp and hones his skills at flying and evading things (bludgers, etc.) I think he will want to play.

Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 8:53 am (#108 of 1227)

The more I think about it, the more I believe Harry will not only play Quidditch next year but also become the Gryffindor captain.

Quidditch had taught Harry to work as a part of a team, to rely on others, to compensate for the others mistake, to fulfill his task and not try to do everything by himself like he did with the Dursley.

The DA had taught Harry to transmit his knowledge to other, to make them progress and to correct their errors. But all that wasn't enough in the DoM's battle, the right hand didn't knew what the left was doing, the retreat was disorganized, all of them were almost fighting alone.

Harry needs to learn how to make people work together efficiently, to work strategies, to put the right people at the right place and that's exactly what Quidditch captaincy can taught him. Plus, that will bring the Quidditch on another level, so we readers will see another angle of the sport.

mike miller - Apr 8, 2004 7:48 am (#109 of 1227)

I can't image Harry not playing Quidditch. Tomoe has made a great point about the possibilities of what Harry could learn from having to develop "strategy". Also, remember that DA sessions had to work around more than one Quidditch teams practice schedule in OotP, so I don't think it will be a matter of having to choose. Sixth year classes could have a greater impact that Quidditch (just try to imagine Snape's NEWT level Potions class!)

There seems to be a strong current on this thread for the DA being something to unify the house; and, I tend to agree. It will be very interesting to see who will be the first Slytherin to want to join. Madame Librarian suggested that it could be the unnamed Slytherin who can see Thestrals and what if it were the same unnamed Slytherin from Umbridge's office. Do I detect the new student we learn more about in book 6 ala Luna from book 5? Marcus - Harry's 'ship?

As far as Harry's desire/mental state to continue leading the DA, I think it's possible to be a little shaky at first but he'll be quick to rise to the task. I've posted a couple of ideas on other threads (Will Harry return to Grimmauld Place) and I think there will be some growing up during the summer. Harry has to start coming to grips with his situation (the Prophecy, Sirius, his parents) to be in any shape for the ultimate showdown with LV.

Whether DD asks Harry to come back to Hogwarts early or it happens elsewhere, I think Harry is in for some "private tutoring".

dobbyiscool - Apr 8, 2004 9:48 am (#110 of 1227)

Quiditch is sort of how Harry can prove he is really good at more than being a hero. Plus, it is something that requires his full attention, so he doesn't have to think about all his problems. He can just forget about them for a while. When he isn't playing quiditch, all he can do is think about what ever is bothering him. Am I making sence?

Prefect Marcus - Apr 8, 2004 10:05 am (#111 of 1227)

Yes, Dobby, you are making sense.

I did not say Harry would give up Quidditch all together. Like you and others have said, it is a release for him.

What I am saying is that it would not surprise me in the least if he gave up playing for the house team. That requires a level of dedication he might not wish to continue.

There is nothing that says he won't enjoy the occasional pick-up game now and again with Ron and friends.

Marcus

Brandon Pennington - Apr 9, 2004 3:56 pm (#112 of 1227)

Okay, I have a p[roblem with the DA. Who told Seamus??? Wouldn't they get the SNEAK treatment?? I mean, they were forboden to tell anyone right, not just Umbridge??? So how can Seamus find out about it, without stumbling in on a meeting? Or something. Know what I mean, sorry if someone has already mentioned this. But i havew a slow connection and its hard for me to get all the info i need b4 i post.

Czarina - Apr 9, 2004 5:25 pm (#113 of 1227)

Harry or Hermione could have told Seamus? Or maybe someone brought him there. That wouldn't be telling, that'd be showing.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 7:00 pm (#114 of 1227)

Brandon Pennington - Okay, I have a problem with the DA. Who told Seamus??? Wouldn't they get the SNEAK treatment??

"...if anyone's run off and told Umbridge...", Maybe the spell kicks in if you speak to Umbridge about it but nobody else.

Neville Longbottom - Apr 10, 2004 12:53 am (#115 of 1227)

I think Seamus was told about their plans earlier. Even before the first meeting in the Hog's Head. It's just that he didn't want to come.

Eloise returned - Apr 13, 2004 4:18 pm (#116 of 1227)

That's a possibility Neville, although they may have been reluctant to tell Seamus, knowing how he felt about Harry. There's also a good chance that Hermione thought of people wanting to recruit. She could have made the spell more specific, so that "SNEAK" would be triggered only if the DA was revealed to authority, or people like the inquisitorial squad.

DA Member - Apr 14, 2004 2:26 pm (#117 of 1227)

I believe that the DA will continue, but like a few others, that it will no longer be in secret. I think Harry needs the DA to continue, for several reasons: It allows him to focus his energy in a positive, constructive manner. It allows him to get his message out (although I don't know how important that is now). I think where it will help the most (in book 6) is that Harry has to feel some responsibility for leading DA members (needlessly) in to danger, and ultimately putting their lives in danger. I think that by teaching, perhaps Harry can feel as if he's helping to protect those around him. Conversely, I suppose he could just as easily feel that it was because of him and the DA that its members were put in harms way to begin with.

One way or another, Harry will have to decide what he's doing with the DA is right or not. How he deals with what he has learned from the prophecy will go a long way in whether or not the DA continues. I also believe that whether the DA continues or not will be up to Harry.

mooncalf - Apr 15, 2004 5:08 pm (#118 of 1227)

I also think that the DA will continue, and I think that given the fact that Voldemort has been 'outed' a lot of other students will show an interest. I hope that Harry will feel the responsibility of having led his friends into danger; I hope that that will help him to mature a little. But I don't think that his friends will hold that against him; they are a very resilient and very loyal bunch of kids. Since none of them had any lasting injury, I think that they will all be ready to stand and fight beside Harry again.

Vern Afanofhp - Apr 16, 2004 8:58 pm (#119 of 1227)
Edited Apr 16, 2004 9:59 pm

This is a what if thought----about the battle at the MoM.

LV, sent a dozen of his best .............DEs to the MoM to trap Harry. And force him to give them the prophecy.

What would have happened, had Harry arrived with 20+ DAs rather than 6??

The 6 DAs kept the 12 DEs at bay for a quite a while--until the OotP arrived..

I am certain that LV thought that Harry would come alone, or maybe with Ron and Hermoine--4 to 1 .. odds...

Eloise returned - Apr 17, 2004 5:37 pm (#120 of 1227)

Ooh Vern, That's an interesting thought.

I'm sure there are those who would have been scared out of their minds and probably gotten hurt. It would have been insanely awesome if they had gone in there and totally kicked the DE's trash, though. Very Happy

I guess it could have been unrealistic... but still...

Czarina - Apr 18, 2004 9:18 am (#121 of 1227)

A lot of DA members would have probably ended up dead had they gone to the DoM. The Death Eaters are under strict orders not to kill or even severely harm Harry. Voldemort wants to get him. However, they have no qualms about killing the others. The order "kill the spare" applies to more than just Cedric. Voldemort doesn't care about the rest of them. They are just a nuisance -- a bit like vultures swarming around freshly killed meat that the lion has to shoo away.

Vern Afanofhp - Apr 21, 2004 6:30 pm (#122 of 1227)

I know it was a silly thought---But when I read stories like this, I sometimes put myself in the heroes place..

If I were Harry, I would have sent 2 of the DAs back to Hogwarts to try to alert the OotP of what was happening! I think the DAs would have jumped on their brooms and gone to the MoM to help Harry.. Even though Harry, did not want to involve anyone in his adventure..

Strange thoughts like this, Happen while waiting for the final 2 books....

JKR4PM - Apr 22, 2004 12:58 am (#123 of 1227)

It seemed to me that it took far too long for Harry and the others to get to MoM for it to be feasible for them to send for re-enforcements and expect them to arrive in a timely fashion.

mollis - Apr 22, 2004 6:40 am (#124 of 1227)
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 7:40 am

Vern: If I were Harry, I would have sent 2 of the DAs back to Hogwarts to try to alert the OotP of what was happening! I think the DAs would have jumped on their brooms and gone to the MoM to help Harry.. Even though Harry, did not want to involve anyone in his adventure..

Actually, Harry was at Hogwarts and the reason he left on his own was because he believed there were no OOTP members there anymore - only Snape, who Harry didn't think was willing to help him. And, they didn't have brooms at the MoM, and its probable that the thestrals had flown back to the forest.

Choices - Apr 22, 2004 8:21 am (#125 of 1227)

I agree mollis - Harry thought he had exhausted his sources of help at Hogwarts. Dumbledore and McGonagall were gone and Snape did not appear to have gotten Harry's hint about "Padfoot". I think Harry felt that if anything was to be done, it was up to him and the DA's that were with him. He felt that time was running out for Sirius and they had to act immediately or Sirius would be lost.

mononoke - Apr 23, 2004 6:14 am (#126 of 1227)

Yeah,definitely.If there were more DAs coming with him,probably more death and loss we'd have.

Czarina II - May 5, 2004 9:20 pm (#127 of 1227)

I also think that it was necessary for JKR's plot for Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville and Luna to go to the DoM without the rest of the DA. She is obviously singling this group out from the others. There will probably be more recruits to the DA in Bk6, but the six from the DoM will rise to major roles in the story.

At the beginning of OoP, it is clear that JKR is trying to expand Harry's circle of close friends. On the Hogwarts Express, Ron and Hermione are relegated to the prefect compartment. Harry is left with Ginny, Neville and Luna. Ginny and Neville get more prominent roles in the book and Luna is introduced for the first time, while Ron and Hermione's roles remain the same (if they don't decline slightly).

That isn't to say that the roles of the other members of the DA will be relegated to the side. They will just remain secondary to the role of the six.

Padfoot - May 6, 2004 10:57 am (#128 of 1227)

I will have to agree with Czarina II about Harry's inner circle of friends. I think Luna, Ginny and Neville will become even more prominent in the upcoming books.

Vern Afanofhp - May 6, 2004 7:23 pm (#129 of 1227)

Hay, kids sorry if I changed the thought of this thread--I think the DA will be the most dominant part of books 6&7.....

I am certain that JKR will wants Harry's inner circle to grow---so that He can compete with LV... and his DEs..

I also have a strange thought that the DA will be the front line and not OotP....

Verbina - May 7, 2004 6:34 am (#130 of 1227)

Well judging how Harry always seems to head straight for the front line in each face off, that would be a very good guess. I mean, why change that now? He may be more cautious but he is still Harry after all. Plus Voldemort is very single minded when it comes to Harry. Anything to try and kill him. So yeah, the DA will be more front line than anyone wants them to be.

In OoP, the Sorting Hat said that the houses had to unite. They did in a way in the DA. All houses were present except for Slytherin. And we can see it as well in Harry's inner circle. His friendships are growing outside of Gryffindor, which is excellent!!!!

Eloise returned - May 11, 2004 2:06 pm (#131 of 1227)

I agree. The Order is going to have to realize that although they wouldn't like underage witches and wizards taking the kind of risks they take, people such as those in the DA can not be stopped. Personally,I don't think that the DA will be the front line instead of the OoP, but that they should join.

Yeah, Verbina! I also think that it's really awesome that the Houses are uniting. There was something I read in another thread, it might have been the Ron thread, about how Harry was almost put in Slytherin and Hermione was almost put in Ravenclaw, so what if Ron was almost put in Hufflepuff? That's just going on with the unity thing.

Verbina - May 12, 2004 7:35 am (#132 of 1227)

Considering the DA was not supposed to be meeting in the first place according to Umbridge...I would say that members personalities are such that they will do just about anything if they feel strongly about it.

And honestly, since the DA has Harry as the head of the group... sort of an association thing. By working with Harry, the entire DA faces the possibility of getting deeper into this than they or tohers expect.

I agree. They should at least become part of the OotP. Only makes sense since they will be invovled wether the adults want them to be or not! ^_^

Steve Newton - May 13, 2004 5:48 am (#133 of 1227)

It seems to me that most members of DA do not even know that the OOTP exists. I think that they have a group identity of their own, and, many have battle experience. Since they formed as sort of an underground group (sorry the 60s just will not leave me) I think that they will continue. Perhaps a sort of out of control gonzo arm of the OOTP.

Verbina - May 13, 2004 7:11 am (#134 of 1227)

But with the main leaders of the group (HRH) knowing about the Order...it could be that the DA could work with the OotP and the other members of the DA not even know about it.

Prefect Marcus - May 13, 2004 7:49 am (#135 of 1227)

I think hooking up DA with OOTP is an unnecessary complication. The two groups may certainly fight side-by-side at some point. In fact, I would be surprised if they didn't. However, I don't see the informal DA merging easily with the formal OOTP.

DA is a loose confederation of friends. It is more of a club than anything else. The Order is in deadly earnest. People are putting their lives and careers on the line to fight Voldemort. Any attempts to merge the two in some way would be fraught with problems.

Marcus

tracie1976 - May 13, 2004 8:04 am (#136 of 1227)

I really do not see Ron being part of of the leadership of the DA. To me it seemed to be Harry and Hermione working together making the plans for it. I just saw Ron there at the meetings....helping out just a little during the meetings. Nothing to the fact that Harry was teaching and Hermione was assisting.
I really don't see the OotP joining with the DA in the next book especially when Harry isn't even a member.

Verbina - May 13, 2004 8:25 am (#137 of 1227)

Ron was in on the founding of the DA and in that capacity, he would be considered a leader, though not as much as Hermione and Harry obviously.

Also, I am not saying that teh DA will completely merge or join with the Order. But...just because Harry is not a member of the OotP does not mean that he won't know what is going on. Lupin after all supported Sirius in telling Harry some of the things going on. I think Lupin will likely continue this with Harry. So Harry would know what is going on with the Order and the DA could reflect that. They could work along side the Order, not completely united with the Order because face it, Harry will not stay away when there is something major going on that he knows about. So even if the Order does not know it, the DA will be working with them.

haymoni - May 13, 2004 9:09 am (#138 of 1227)

Hermione is the Organizational Leader.

Harry is the Charismatic Leader.

I saw Ron as "The Enforcer" - he jumped right in to defend Harry, followed quickly by the Twins - "we aren't too particular about where we put this".

What was that thing anyway?

Anna Katarina - May 13, 2004 9:31 am (#139 of 1227)

Do you really want to know that haymoni?

haymoni - May 13, 2004 9:32 am (#140 of 1227)

I wouldn't let the Twins near anything remotely sharp!

FCBarca - May 14, 2004 10:54 am (#141 of 1227)
Edited May 14, 2004 11:57 am

From my Post #421, Book 6 DADA's teacher. Thought It better to be placed here. Basically, I hate the DA, because I see it as a children's army, like a small Order of the Phoenix. Here are a few quotes in which both Lupin and, it appears, Dumbledore agrees with me. Now, this is just my opinion, and I'm not arrogant enough to say I'm right; only that I believe I am, not that I definitely am.

"There are dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any of you..." (From Lupin, when he says Harry can't join the Order.)

"Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right, and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." (From Dumbledore, at the Leaving feast, GOF)

If I didn't know better, I would say you could change the name to Harry Potter, or any other kid who wants to fight Voldemort. The difference being that Harry has to fight Voldemort, the rest don't.

haymoni - May 14, 2004 11:03 am (#142 of 1227)

Yes - the DA was not formed as a "club" - Hermione wanted it so that people could learn to defend themselves. It was practical.

The reaction of the adults at #12 Grimmauld Place had to the Twins joining the Order was correct - they really didn't know what they would be getting into. Of course, at that time it also meant going against the MOM so that may have had more to do with it than anything else.

However, without the DA, Neville, Luna, Ginny, Hermione & Ron would not have been able to defend themselves in the MOM battle. I think the DA may go away if a "competent" DADA teacher is found.

(Just gotta love Minerva!)

Chris. - May 14, 2004 11:07 am (#143 of 1227)
Edited May 14, 2004 12:09 pm

The 6 DA members including Harry who went to the MoM to save Sirius showed another kind of power rather than wand magic. They showed love, for each other, and for Harry, Sirius. They also showed barvery, which in my opinion, may be one of the most treasured things.

They didn't know the DEs were waiting for them, but they still tried to fight them, and some of the DEs were taken out by the students, even before the Order turned up!

FCBarca - May 14, 2004 2:17 pm (#144 of 1227)

Right, here's a summary of my opinion spanning the 'Book 6 DADA's teacher' thread, and this one.

I believe the DA is a foolish group, for one reason: they are meddling with things that will probably get them killed. I believe the fighting should be left to the adults, as they are more prepared, magically and mentally. My quote about Lupin, I feel, shows that. Now, I disagree with everyone who thinks the kids have to fight (again, I'm saying I disagree, not that that person is wrong.)

Harry, though, has to fight. But because he has to fight, it doesn't mean every kid has to fight. Also, we know Harry has to fight Voldemort as a kid (Harry as a kid, not Voldemort. ) But remember, from an 'in-the-book' perspective, Dumbledore and co. don't know when Harry has to fight Voldemort; could be fifty years time in their eyes. But we know.

I believe the kids are getting caught up in things that are too ahead of them, too dangerous. So, I believe learn all they want, but remember what they learn probably won't be enough against Voldemort and co. mainly because Voldemort teaches the DEs things that these kids can't be teached.

So, there is my summary on why I believe kids should stay out of the war. By all means disagree, but remember I can't be proved wrong until JKR says I'm wrong.

JKR4PM - May 14, 2004 3:22 pm (#145 of 1227)

FC Barca, could you please point out where in OoP it says that the DA are learning Defence so that they can go after Voldemort?

Chris. - May 14, 2004 3:25 pm (#146 of 1227)

The DA was formely called the Defence Association, before Ginny suggested the name, Dumbledore's Army.

It's all in the former name. They aren't going to go after Voldemort, but if he makes the first attack, they'll be ready to defend theirselves in any way they can.

I'm hoping the DA does continue in the sixth year.

JKR4PM - May 14, 2004 3:28 pm (#147 of 1227)

Ah. So it is a Defensive club not a 'Let's go save the world' club. I get it now.

Tomoé - May 14, 2004 5:05 pm (#148 of 1227)
Edited May 14, 2004 6:08 pm

Quote time!

As Hermione an Ron talked with Harry for the first time about what will become the DA :

'You know, I was just saying to Ron when you came in ... we've got to do something [...] about what a dreadful teacher [Umbridge] is, and how we're not going to learn any Defence from her at all,' said Hermione. [...] Well,' said Hermione tentatively. 'You know, I was thinking today [...] I was thinking that [/b]- Maybe the time's come when we should just - just do it ourselves. [...] learn Defence Against the Dark Arts ourselves [...] It's about preparing ourselves, like Harry said in Umbridge first lesson, for what's waiting for us out there. It's about making sure we really can defend ourselves. If we don't learn anything for a whole year - [...] we've gone past the stage where we can just learn things out of books[...] We need a teacher, a proper one, who can show us how to use spells and correct us if we're going wrong. [...] Harry, don't you see? this ... this is exactly why we need you ... we need to know what it's r-really like ... facing him ... facing V-Voldemort.'(UK OoP ch.15 pp.290-291)

When they ask again after few weeks :

I really think you ought to teach anyone who wants to learn. I mean, we're talking about defending ourselves against V-Voldemort. (UK OoP ch.16 p.296)

In the Hog's Head :

I had the idea - that it might be good if people who wanted to study Defence Against the Dark Arts - and I mean, really study it, you know, not the rubbish that Umbridge is doing with us because nobody could call that Defence Against the Dark Arts - Well, I thought it would be good if we, well, took matters into our own hands. [...] I want to be properly trained in defence because ... because ... because Lord Voldemort is back. [...] Well ... that's the plan, anyway (UK OoP ch.16 p.303)

I couldn't find more pertinent quotes, it sounds like, because of the return of Voldemort, the DA members think everyone risk to be placed in situation in which they will have to defend themselves and therefore want to learn DADA properly. The group was not expressly trying to fight Voldemort, some of the members want to (Cho if I remember well) but not all of them.

Finally, I agree with FCBarca, those kids are not prepared, magically and mentally. The twins are not, Marietta is not, Ernie is not.

Neville is mentally ready, maybe Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Cho too, I'm really not sure about it though. But I'm sure Neville is mentally ready as he know there are thing worst than death.

Dumbly-dorr - May 14, 2004 8:51 pm (#149 of 1227)

You know, I'm not sure about all this "the kids should leave it up to the grown-ups" stuff concerning the DA. That just sounds a little too "Umbridge" for me.

Iverson Godfrey - May 14, 2004 10:05 pm (#150 of 1227)

Plus, they aren't exactly KIDS anymore, are they. They are in the older range of that weird place between childhood and adulthood. As recently as a hundred years ago (maybe two) they would have been considered adults by now, I think.

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Verbina - May 14, 2004 10:24 pm (#151 of 1227)

We also have to consider some of the members of the DA. I don't have exact numbers but some are fairly closely related to people that work at the MoM. They may feel that their family will be a target.

I am reminded of a friend of my daughters. When he was 15, there was a rash of burglaries in their neighborhood. he thought that perhaps they may be next. So he checked every lock and window latch. Then he even took the action of having a bat handy whereever he went on their property. Was that silly? Perhaps. Was that a foolish thing? Perhaps. But it was the action that he felt he had to take to make sure he felt more comfortable. Realistically, I don't believe he would have faced down burglars. But he felt better for knowing he had that option. This is very likely what some of the members of the DA were feeling. Everything was so wild and out of control and they did what they could as young people to feel as if they could do something.

Basically, I don't see the DA as anything different from the Duleing Club thing they had in CoS. In CoS it was for their protection. In OotP, it was also for their protection. Nothing more. Harry took it a step further and his friends refused to let him go alone.

FCBarca - May 15, 2004 4:52 am (#152 of 1227)

JKR4PM, it wasn't exactly said, but hinted at. Neville says (when they are about to leave for the Ministry): "We were all in the DA together. It was all supposed to be about fighting You-Know-Who, wasn't it? Or was that just a game or something?" Then Harry says: "No-of course it wasn't."

So Harry isn't exactly disagreeing that the DA is an 'army', and not purely for defence.

Anyway, we look at things from different viewpoints (when I say 'we', I mean me and everyone who disagrees with me.) You see things from more of a 'Dumbledore' point of view, or Harry point of view: that bravery, determination and loyalty a some of the best traits, and showing these traits are good, even if you end up dead. And don't get me wrong, there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a good way of looking at things. But I see things from a more 'Voldemort' point of view (I say more Voldemort, because I don't think entirely like Voldemort, as I'm not an evil person.) I value bravery, determination and loyalty. Yet I feel determination clouds your mind. Take Harry for instance: he was so determined to save Sirius, that he failed to realize that Voldemort was waiting for him. If what he saw was true (which it wasn't, but he didn't know that), then there was no way that he, Ron, Hermione and the others would have survived. Them six don't stand a chance against Voldemort (the person, not him and his DEs.)

I must apologize greatly, as I don't feel any of my posts (except maybe the last one) has been well thought out and explained properly. I basically feel that the DA is a foolish organization, because although I agree it's purpose was to learn to defend themselves, I feel that will turn to attack, when things outside Hogwarts get out of hand, and they'll want to do something. Like I said above, I value that kind of bravery and determination. But I feel that they should have more control over their determination, as I don't think they can make any impact on the war.

Neville Longbottom - May 15, 2004 5:19 am (#153 of 1227)

I can see your point, still I think the DA was a good thing to do. Of course running blindly into battle is not the right thing to do, and I suppose Harry learned this at the end of OotP. Nonetheless, the moment isn't thar far away, when they leave the safety of Hogwarts, and then they have to defend themselves. And if the teachers aren't able to teach them DADA, then they have to do it themselves.

Of course, they have to control their determination, but I am sure they will. On the other hand, they will make an impact on this war. At least some of them. It would be doubtful if it were a real war, but it is a war in literature, and Harry will be the center of the war. I am sure he and many of the others will be there to fight, not the whole war, but during some points, like they already did at the end of OotP. Besides, I don't think they'll have to leave Hogwarts to fight, because I am absolutely convinced that the final battle will be at Hogwarts.

Wembricken - May 15, 2004 10:35 am (#154 of 1227)

Here's my take on the DA:

Several quotes presented by others has, I think, made clear the original reason for forming the DA: the lack of real defense being taught by Professor Umbridge. Why was she teaching them such impractical material? To discourage the rumor that there was any need for DADA at all, to discourage the rumor that Voldemort has returned. So began the Defense Association (later renamed Dumbledore's Army).

Now, however, the Ministry knows very well that Voldemort has returned. Any new DADA professor at Hogwarts will not try to deny this fact and thus there will be little need for the DA to continue. So why did Rowling have the DA play a significant part in the OoP, then? Here's where I have my theory.

I believe that Rowling created the DA as a launching point for several future key players, specifically Neville, Luna, and Ginny. Rowling has always made Neville out to be a clumsy, forgetful person whose magical ability is something less than perfect and whose courage is even worse. Luna, though only new to the series, was portrayed as a very strange person from the start. Loony Lovegood who always talks of such strange things as Crumple-Horned Snorkacks or Sirius Black being a 'singing sensation'. Then there is Ginny Weasley, the once-quiet little girl with a serious liking for Harry. Since the CoS, Ginny is mentioned more in passing and in small issues.

The DA was the point at which these three characters are suddenly made much more noticeable. These were the three loyal friends (aside from the expected Ron and Hermione) that follow Harry to the Ministry of Magic. Stepping away from things and looking at the overall picture, you suddenly realize that all three have some special tie to Harry. Neville, who shows a sudden improvement in his abilities with the forming of the DA, is the only other boy about whom the Prophesy could be talking. Luna, for some reason, also shows a connection to Harry. She is the one who first tells Harry that she too can see the thestrals; she too hears the voices behind the arch in the Department of Mysteries; and Harry does not feel irritated when discussing the events at the Department of Mysteries with her. I see Luna becoming a significant character in the next two books, especially since she has an entire chapter named after her. Last but not least, there is Ginny. She specifically tells Harry, "[...] you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels." There are also several hints that there may be something that will form between Ginny and Harry in the future. In the infirmary at the end of the OoP, it says, 'Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.' Or when Ron suggested Ginny find a better boyfriend, he gave Harry an 'oddly furtive look as he said it.'

These are the connections that I have made between Neville, Luna, and Ginny with Harry. The DA may dissolve into nothing, but I believe Rowling used it as that launching point for several vital characters to suddenly appear. Whew, long-winded, aren’t I?

Catherine - May 15, 2004 2:11 pm (#155 of 1227)

I like your thorough discussion, Wembrecken. As far as I'm concerned, you put the DA into the proper narrative context in OoP. Thanks for such a thoughtful and lucid analysis--it was a pleasure to read.

Rich - May 15, 2004 9:44 pm (#156 of 1227)

Well said, Wembricken. I think you're spot on with your analysis, especially Harry's relationship with Luna. I think there's something important about her that we have to find out.

Choices - May 16, 2004 8:42 am (#157 of 1227)

Wembricken - Nobody minds a long post when it is saying something and saying it as well as you did. I, too, enjoyed reading it and think you are right. Well done!

Detail Seeker - May 16, 2004 11:57 am (#158 of 1227)

Wembricken´s literary summary was a good one. Just a few additive notes on other aspects of the DA related to FC Barca´s assessment:

At the age of 14 onwards, there is a drive in many adolescent people (those not set quiet e.g. by TV) to start getting active in the world. So the Founding of DA is something typical of students of that age. FC Barca, you are right in in stating, that the shifted objective of the DA now is something, that is above the possibilities of its member n o w . They are not really trained enough to join the fight with a suifficient propability of surviving it - though they did very well in the Department of Mysteries (DoM). Yes, they need to be trained more and to train themeselves more - but it is a starting point, more a promise to the future than an investment , that will pay back f u l l y in short term. It has shown short term results though in the DoM. So, it needs to monitored by Dumbledore or an able DADA teacher to protect the students from over-eagerness, but as a basic training unit, it is not foolish at all.

Verbina - May 17, 2004 7:50 am (#159 of 1227)

Detail Seeker is right. With my work with young adults, it is generally around 14 that they start to think about the big picture of the world around them and want to take a more active role in the world. (Not all but most) Most will find small ways to do this. There will always be a few that take a more popractive role in it. Trying to make the world a better place and forming their own beliefs and opinions. So it is no surprise to me that the DA was formed and they had aspirations of doing great things.

We also have to consider that the DA to Harry was a way to 1) have a more active role in things that were going on in his life 2) he knew that at some point, especially after the Dementor attack, that he would have to defend himself again. He may not have known when but he knew deep down that it would happen.

I think part of the problem we are dealing with is saying that the DA in general was foolish. I don't think it was. The DA, as a group of students trying to master the DADA for their OWLS and for their own personal protection, was not a bad thing. It was, in my opinion, necessary. But the actions of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna...that was foolish. Not out of line of the actions of a typical person that age though.

Plus...to be honest, of the ones there that night...Harry and Neville were the only ones with a good grasp of the danger they faced. The rest had never dealt with DEs or Voldemort (other than Ginny). They really were going in blind. To them, death was still rather abstract. Harry on the other hand knew the harsh reality of death. Neville knew the hazards of the DE's curses.

FCBarca - May 17, 2004 12:46 pm (#160 of 1227)
Edited May 17, 2004 1:51 pm

"...protect the students from over-eagerness, but as a basic training unit, it is not foolish at all."

Exactly right. Also, I know about the eagerness of people at that age and the like. But that was my point: that they need to control that eagerness (I called it determination, but eagerness is just as good, if not better.)

Also, I never said the DA was foolish to start, only that if the students start to get carried away (here's the quote, to prove I'm not making it up as I go along: "I DID NOT say they shouldn't learn DADA, or even start Dumbledore's Army..." My post 415, "Book 6 DADA's teacher".) Then, I believe, they have become foolish, and maybe the DA was foolish to start, because I don't believe they can learn enough, and because it has lead to them getting carried away (remember, I said IF they get carried away.) I don't mean they're going to go after Voldemort, but if getting serious thoughts about getting involved, then that's foolish, I believe.

I believe they need to learn defence, as it's a must. If the DA stays, as it was started, a way of learning defence, then it is brilliant. But if it turns to some kind of army, and they think they can take on Voldemort, and intend to (over-confidence being the reason), then I believe it is foolish. Remember, IF, not when.

Also, this has just been my opinion, all of these posts. I'm sure you'll find that I have never said to people who disagree with me that they're wrong, or that I'm right. It's all been my opinion, and I have tried to state that through my posts.

Miréimé - May 19, 2004 8:28 pm (#161 of 1227)

I totally agree with you, FCBarca, karate is good against unarmed men, but against machinguns, just hide, or so to speak. Following this, DA member will probably be able to stand their ground to dementors, trolls, giants, and poorly trained wizard. That's great to protect yourself as long as the Dork Lard and his DE aren't nearby.

Rich - May 22, 2004 11:42 pm (#162 of 1227)

Teenagers at this age want to make a difference, but remember, nobody listens to them (trust me, I'm 15).

I'm not pretentious (anybody who knows me, knows that). But I have a better idea of what's going on in the world than nearly all the teachers at my school, but my opinions are drowned out by theirs, because they're is a generalisation that kids don't know what they're talking about.

What I'm trying to say is that the DA know what they're talking about, they know what they're doing and what they're trying to do but nobody will take them seriously because they're kids. Maybe the incident at the MoM will prove to people that the DA are pretty capable.

(Sorry to ramble on in the middle there, but there's some pretty ignorant people in the world, who think kids are nothing but naive.)

Detail Seeker - May 23, 2004 3:22 am (#163 of 1227)

Exactly this attitude is the motor and the problem, rich. You think, you know - as I did at that age, too - , but now I know of a lot of the factors I ignored and am shure to ignore more still. Information is making things more complicated sometimes and that is able to make people resign. But acting on uncomplete information might bring unexpected results - History is full of such situations, where "obvious" action lead to situations, they were meant to avoid.

S.E. Jones - May 23, 2004 11:39 am (#164 of 1227)

Everyone thinks they know everything when they're a teen, it's not until you're older and you look back that you realize you don't and you still have so very much to learn. The American writer Mark Twain once wrote, "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." (1937). Basically what he's saying is that the father didn't learn anything knew, the boy learned to recognize what the father knew and what he, himself, didn't. Harry has hit some of that..unsurety when he realized he didn't know anything about girls and wished Sirius's head would show up in the fireplace to give him advice. That was just the first step in a long journey, I think, toward realizing just what he doesn't know and growing as a result of it. He'll soon need a lot of advice on a lot of topics and will probably be turning to Lupin now that Sirius is gone....

The giant squid - May 23, 2004 11:20 pm (#165 of 1227)

In Rich's defense, though, he does have a point about adults assuming that kids (especially teens) have no idea what's "really going on." Yes, there are some areas that I thought I was an expert in at age 16 that turned out to be quite beyond me, but there were just as many that I had as good or better grasp of as the "grown-ups" around me.

The trick is recognizing which is which.

As you mentioned, Sarah, Harry has started to reach the point where he realizes that he doesn't know it all; so has Hermione, actually--you'll notice her fact statements aren't laced with as much "I know it but you don't" as they were in the first couple of books. If nothing else, I think the DA will be useful in giving the kids a forum to bounce their thoughts and feelings off of each other, determine truth from rumor, talk down the impetuous and talk up the meek. It's a highly useful club with a good purpose. The only real question is whether they'll try to keep it underground or go public with it now that DD's back.

--Mike

Eponine - May 24, 2004 5:27 am (#166 of 1227)

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but how do you think the DA members would have done in the MoM battle if there had been less Death Eaters? Perhaps 6 DE and 6 DA?

Prefect Marcus - May 24, 2004 7:13 am (#167 of 1227)

If the MoM showdown had been 6 versus 6, more DA members would have died. With the DEs outnumbering the DAs two-to-one, the DEs were confident that they could handle in situation, so they were more inclined to "play". If the odds would have been even, the DEs would have immediately started to make the odds more in their favour.

night41 - May 24, 2004 7:30 am (#168 of 1227)

I agree with Prefect Marcus.

hopping hessian - May 24, 2004 8:11 am (#169 of 1227)

As do I. It's easy to make villains buffoons, but remember, these people killed many good witches and wizards during VWI. I really don't think that the DA will be able to take them on equally, especially since the DEs will use tactics the DA will not (i.e. the Unforgivables). The enemy has moved up quite a few notches from Draco and co. In order to survive (assuming they have to fight the DEs again at all) the DA will have to rely on more than just spells, they will also have to use their wits and the DEs (likely) cocky attitude.

Alohomora - May 24, 2004 8:13 pm (#170 of 1227)

My first post on the forum. (Hi everyone!)

I don’t think the DA would have gone to the MoM at all if they had thought they had anyone else to turn to. Throughout the book there was a theme of Dumbledore avoiding Harry, and I think when trouble came, Harry didn’t see the Order as someplace he could turn for help. He had never seen them doing anything to fight Voldemort, and he had never been told what they were doing. Because he felt abandoned by DD he didn’t really think through the option of going to him.

If DD had been more honest with Harry and told him what they thought might happen (a false vision planted by Voldemort), and if DD had been there earlier in the books to support Harry (even by just giving him information), Harry probably would never have had to go to the MoM that night. I also think that any of the Order members, if given the amount of information Harry had, would have done the same thing. He didn’t act rashly because he was overconfident in his or the DA’s skills. He was acting out of desperation. He was stuck between two of his greatest fears, and he turned out to be more scared of losing another family member (he did see Sirius as family) than facing Voldemort.

I also agree--the DA is no match for the Death Eaters. However, if there is ever an attack on Hogwarts (which seems likely), the children of the DEs would be likely to join in. (by the way, are these who are being reffered to as 'Death Nibblers'? I assumed so, but...) And if this happened the DA could keep them off the backs of the real Order members, allowing them to fight more freely.

Tomoé - May 24, 2004 9:07 pm (#171 of 1227)
Edited May 24, 2004 10:07 pm

Yes, the DE's children are named the Death Nibblers on this forum. ^_^

Alohomora - May 24, 2004 9:32 pm (#172 of 1227)

thanks.

Verbina - May 25, 2004 6:56 am (#173 of 1227)

Have to say that I agree with you on much of what you said Alohomora. It makes sense. So many ifs but due to the circumstances, things happened in a way that was truly unavoidable. DD knew that Voldemort had some hold over Harry and knew that to be around Harry at the wrong time would be horrible for them both.

Harryw as caught between to nasty things. And he chose the more important to him. Can't say that in the same situation, I wouldn't have done the same thing. Or at least similar.

Magical Max - May 30, 2004 3:55 am (#175 of 1227)

A duel between Malfoy and Harry is certainly Imminent. it also shows the contrast betwwen Lucius and Draco. Lucius is patient and willing to follow Voldemort's orders , whereas Draco is more impulsive and less willing to control his emotions.

I would imagine that once the DA becomes common knowledge around Hogwarts, the numbers of the group might increase as more student come around. Although HRH and Dumbledore would have to set limits or some sort of screening process to stop things getting out of hand.

Malfoy and the Slytherins would most likely try to set up their own group in opposition ( a Mini DE ?) but I think this attempt would blow up in their faces. Not to mention Voldemort would not be happy as this would only draw further attention to what he and the DE are up to.

S.E. Jones - May 30, 2004 9:50 pm (#176 of 1227)

Screening process? What do you mean? Screen what? Spells, activities?

Tomoé - May 30, 2004 9:59 pm (#177 of 1227)

It sounds like screening students to me, but maybe I should be in bed for hours already. ^_^

Magical Max - May 31, 2004 4:08 am (#178 of 1227)

What I meant to say is that the core group of DA would have to sort through any applicants to determine who is in it just because it is the current "cool" thing to do and who is committed to stick it out to the bitter end.

Remember Harry is just realising that this really is a war. Good people will get killed along the way. The DA is a group of teenagers who are committed to the downfall of Voldemort no matter what. They know what will happen if they lose the fight. Consequently, it is unlikely they will let anyone else join who does not show the same level of dedication to the cause.

I might seem as if I'm getting a bit carried away but I can't help thinking that the Battle in the Dept. of Mysteries was just a minor skirmish and the real battle is just around the corner.

Julia. - May 31, 2004 9:10 am (#179 of 1227)

*Shudders at the thought of the battle at the DoM as a 'minor skirmish'* Very well said John, 10 points to your house!

S.E. Jones - May 31, 2004 5:01 pm (#180 of 1227)

Actually, the DA formed to learn DADA, not to bring down Voldemort. They wanted to learn how to protect themselves against him and his followers, true, but not go out looking for him. I don't think the current DA would exclude anyone from learning such a necessay skill, especially in such a time as this when war is just hitting. It will be important for everyone in the school to be properly trained and practiced and everyone knowing a little DADA will aid everyone else, including Harry and his personal company (his personal five friends who probably will be following him against DEs, unfortunately).... I agree, a real battle is coming, but if the person standing next to you isn't readily trained when it hits out of the blue, you aren't going to be in very good shape after the battle, are you?

Magical Max - Jun 4, 2004 2:52 am (#181 of 1227)

True, the DA members wanted to learn DADA. Mainly because they knew they would be needing the practical experience. If not for the reason of passing their OWLS, then for dealing with threats in the outside world. The core members of DA were the few at Hogwarts who were willing to publicly back Harry in defying Umbridge and the Ministry on the subject of the return of Voldemort.

It will be interesting to see how the DA evolves in books 6 and 7 as the group would become a potential recruiting pool for future members for the OotP, particulary for the final showdown in book 7

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 15, 2004 9:20 pm (#182 of 1227)
Edited Jun 15, 2004 10:25 pm

I am not sure if this has been noted before there are some interesting parallels between the organization of the original Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore's Army

First of all, Hermione seems to me to be the organizational force behind the D.A. While it is logical to assume that Dorcas Meadowes occupied a similarly important role with the Original Order of the Phoenix which is why Voldemort murdered her personally.

Second, several members of Dumbledore's Army have had relatives killed or tortured by Voldemort or his followers.

Among the members who have had family members who were victims of Voldemort or his followers are the following

Harry Potter Neville Longbottom Susan Bones

Ron, Ginny, Fred, and George Weasley. This information comes from the information that J.K. Rowling provided on her website saying that Molly Weasley's maiden was Prewett which would indicate a relationship to Fabian and Gideon Prewett

Dean Thomas on her website J.K. Rowling stated that the father of Dean Thomas had refused to join the Death Eaters after being asked to do so and was murdered.

In terms of the the Order of the Phoenix in the 1990's

Sirius Black Molly and Arthur Weasley have lost relatives who were murdered by Voldemort

Peace, Nathan Zimmermann

Lady Nagini - Jun 15, 2004 11:16 pm (#183 of 1227)

While it is logical to assume that Dorcas Meadowes occupied a similarly important role with the Original Order of the Phoenix which is why Voldemort murdered her personally.

Where did you get this information? Maybe I missed it, but I'm not sure where you're coming from. Could you explain, please?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 16, 2004 11:44 am (#184 of 1227)

Lady Nagini,

In chapter 9 of Order of the Phoenix when Moody shows the photograph of the Original Order of the Phoenix to Harry he mentions that Voldemort personally killed Dorcas Meadowes

"That's Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally"

The quote is found on page 174 of the American Edition.

It is my contention that Voldemort only personally killed those persons that he believed to pose the highest risk to ascenion to power. For example, he killed the Potters becaue he believed they posed an extremely high risk toward the success of his plans and to his continued existence

I believe that the reason he personally murdered Dorcas Meadowes for a similar reason. I believe that Dorcas Meadowes was one of the principal organizers of the Original Order of the Phoenix and extremely close to Albus Dumbledore and almost as powerful. As such she played a vital role in the Original Order of the Phoenix

For this reason I believe that a parallel can be drawn between Dorcas Meadowes and Hermione in that Hermione was the organizational and adminstrative brain behind the DA.

Peace, Nathan Zimmermann

Lady Nagini - Jun 16, 2004 1:49 pm (#185 of 1227)

Oh...thanks for the clarification.

Accio Book Six - Jun 16, 2004 1:57 pm (#186 of 1227)

Isn't that what Lady said?

Lady Nagini - Jun 16, 2004 2:00 pm (#187 of 1227)

What? Oh, maybe you're mistaking the red -- I was quoting Nathan there, asking for a clarification.

Czarina II - Jun 16, 2004 7:02 pm (#188 of 1227)

Maybe Dorcas was Dumbledore's wife or sister? Anyway, that's WAY off-topic. Sorry.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 16, 2004 8:41 pm (#189 of 1227)
Edited Jun 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Czarina II I am slightly confused how is that off topic .When the topic is Dumbledore's Army and the motivations behind its formation. I was illustrating the parallels between the Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore's Army.

The parallels I illustrated could be part of the strong motivations behind the formation of the core group of the DA, the core group being Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna. Also, the parallels demonstrated the strong motivations for members such as Susan Bones and Dean Thomas in joining the DA. Could you please provide me with some clarification as to what is off topic in regards to the discussion.

Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann

S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 11:03 pm (#190 of 1227)

Dorcas being Dumbledore's wife, sister, or some relation of some kind doesn't help show a parallel of any kind to the current DA to which this thread is dedicated. However, if you can link said statement to said topic, it is fine. Otherwise, it is, indeed, off-topic.

There is your answer, Nathan....

Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 4:38 am (#191 of 1227)

Haha, I love all the polite passive-agressiveness in this forum.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 17, 2004 9:22 am (#192 of 1227)
Edited Jun 17, 2004 10:27 am

S.E. Jones thank you that clarifies much. I cannot tie that in unfortunately. However, said point does not relate to my arguement in general. I was afraid that Czarina was referring to my original post on the subject of the parallels being off topic or my clarification to Lady Nagini being off topic. I can see how the commentary on Dorcas being Dumbledore's wife is off topic as it is an aside.

In terms of the formation of Dumbledore's Army is it logical to assume that formation of the D.A. is foreshadowed or alluded to in the New Sorting Hat song.

The idea that John Fallon proposes of the DA being a futture recruiting pool for Order of the Phoneix is an interesting one. Of the members of the DA that we possess a great deal of information on which of those members is likely to become members of the Order.

Best Regards Nathan Zimmermann

mike miller - Jun 17, 2004 9:59 am (#193 of 1227)

I don't think any DA members will graduate into full fledged Order status; not even Harry. Things are going to be happening too fast over the next 2 years. The Order will not accept them until after they've completed school; and even that's been debated as it relates to Fred and George.

That said, do I think the DA will be "shut out" of the battle against Voldemort, No way! Our hero is the leader of the DA, they will play a big part.

The Grey Lady - Jun 17, 2004 11:06 am (#194 of 1227)

The thing is, by the end of the 7th book there will either be no need for the Order, or Harry wont be able to join (if he dies). So, unless they change the rules and let underage wizards/witches in, we'll never see Harry as a member.

Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 2:03 pm (#195 of 1227)

I don't think they'll change the rules, they'll just make a exception for Harry and maybe a couple of others students later.

Verbina - Jun 17, 2004 5:08 pm (#196 of 1227)

As if a silly thing like age would get in the way of HRH. It hasn't stopped them yet. Though...with the death of Sirius, someone they each knew, they may be a little more careful in the future.

Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 5:30 pm (#197 of 1227)

I don't think Harry wants to join the Order anymore.

After Mr Weasley getting attacked and Sirius dying, HRH will see the dangers that could happen and the loved ones they could lose if they join the Order.

Though, death might be happening even if they don't join.

Magical Max - Jun 18, 2004 4:10 am (#198 of 1227)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 20, 2004 12:11 am

Good Points there, I forgot about the age limit for entering the order. Admitting the DA into the Order depends on how well recruiting of adult wizards goes now that Voldemort's return is revealed to all. Remember their numbers took a hammering during the last batle with Voldemort (VM) and only a handfull have joined since then.

Most of the adult wizards in the Order would knock back the DA's offer of help saying it's too dangerous, but the kids would counter-argue that if they don't all band together and defeat VM once and for all, there'll be no place safe left, so they may as well fight.

Better to go down fighting than sitting around waiting for the hammer to fall.

Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 4:28 am (#199 of 1227)

I don't know if everyone in the DA joined because they want to take the initiative and join the battle against Voldemort and the DEs. I think a lot of them joined because they wanted to be able to defend themselves if something happened.

That said, I think that Harry will insist on joining the order and knowing what is happening, and I think that Dumbledore will make the other members of the order let him join. I think that Dumbledore really regrets ever treating Harry like a child and now believes that he has the right to be on the front lines knowing everything that everyone else does... I mean, if ANYONE has the right to know what's going on, it's Harry, right? I mean, what are they gonna do? Leave him in the dark and then just toss him in the ring with Voldemort so they can duke it out? Remember that if Voldemort is ever to be destroyed, it has to be by Harry.

And I don't think that they'll let anyone else join. MAYBE Ron and Hermione, but I think that that will take a lot of convincing to Molly and the likes. In this case, Dumbledore will probably step in and let them join as he knows how capable they are and knows how involved they are in the war (more than any other students) and wouldn't see the point of keeping them away.

Now, the question is, if they ARE inducted into the order, will they be allowed to help out at all, or will they just be privy to the information?

Verbina - Jun 18, 2004 7:49 am (#200 of 1227)

Privy to information would be a big step actually if that is all they get from it. If they had been more upfront with the information that they knew, Harry might not have gone to the DoM that fateful night.

They could of course to help keep and eye on things at the school. We have to remember that Draco and Co are there. Plus...well...Voldemort has made it very plain he wants to get at Harry. The Order will want to keep him out of danger but...wherever he goes there is danger.

I don't see them going out on missions for the Order. Just mroe or less keeping communication open especially as Harry has that connection mentally with Voldemort.

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Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:36 am

Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 1:00 pm (#201 of 1227)

Just allowing HRH to attend the Order's meeting would be a big step forward for them all. I mean, did any Order's action did more to convince the wizarding public that Voldemort was back than the Quibbler article? no

Verbina - Jun 19, 2004 1:39 pm (#202 of 1227)

hehe In that case, the "kids" did better than the adults!!! Though I am sure that Molly was ready to pitch a fit over it.

And to be honest, I see Molly as the one that is the big stumbling block on letting HRH know what is going on. She wants to protect them but...she hasn't quite gotten it yet that nothing will protect the from the world. If Molly gets past that line of thinking and realizes that they have to make their own decisions and need to know what is going on...then I think things will be alot better for HRH.

Dumbly-dorr - Jun 19, 2004 5:15 pm (#203 of 1227)
Edited Jun 19, 2004 6:16 pm

I think that whatever Harry is told than Ron and Hermione will know, at least about the Order. Harry did draw the line with his "kill or be killed" prophecy, but I think that is only because he needs to digest it first. He needs to let it sink in and figure out for himself how he feels about it before he gets their reactions.

And as for Harry needing to know what's going on with the Order, Accio Book Six is absolutely on target. Harry is the center of this whole deal. However, perhaps Dumbledore and Harry will come to some kind of an understanding about what is prudent for Harry to know, especially until the time Harry can keep Voldemort out of his mind, and Harry will allow this to happen not wanting Volemort privy to any more information. OR....oooh...maybe Harry will be the one to deceive Voldemort through their mind-connection. That would be great!

The DA could play an important part if Dumbledore chooses to use all of those who want to help, whether they are actually in the Order or not. Just think of the false information Draco could be sending to the DE through Lucius or Narcissa...another way of leading Voldemort down the wrong (or right) path so that Harry can defeat him.

Just my two knuts.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 5:38 pm (#204 of 1227)

I am not certain that Harry would tell Ron and Hermione about the Prophecy before telling Neville.

I Think the only ones may be told about the prophecy ever are the other five who fought in the Dept of Mysteries and Susan Bones because Susan understands what it means to lose someone at Voldemort's hands.

Best regards, Nathan Zimmermann

Dumbly-dorr - Jun 19, 2004 6:57 pm (#205 of 1227)
Edited Jun 19, 2004 8:01 pm

You know, I didn't think about Neville. He certainly could be the first,perhaps the only one to be told.

I was also thinking about an earlier post...post #182...where Nathan said about JKR saying about Dean Thomas' parents

"Dean Thomas on her website J.K. Rowling stated that the father of Dean Thomas had refused to join the Death Eaters after being asked to do so and was murdered."

Isn't Dean Thomas the one in Gryffindor that has muggle parents? Isn't he the one in Order of the Phoenix, during the scene in the dorm room with Seamus telling about how his mum didn't want him to come back to Hogwarts, and Dean says that his mum and dad are muggles and he's not fool enough to tell thim about all the crazy stuff going on?

Am I just remembering wrong? I don't have my books available right now. Help please? Also on JKR's site, where was that quote? I haven't seen it.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 7:48 pm (#206 of 1227)
Edited Jun 19, 2004 8:51 pm

Dumbly-dorr you are remembering correctly. The material about Dean's father did not make it into the books. According to the material found on the website Dean Thomas never knew his natural father and that his mother remarried after Dean's natural father abandoned the family and died shortly after abandoning them. The material is found in the Extra Stuff section: Edits subsection of J.K. Rowlings website.

I have posted the relevant material here

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Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters.

Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot.

Dumbly-dorr - Jun 19, 2004 8:15 pm (#207 of 1227)

Excellent! Thanks Nathan. Wouldn't we all love to read the background JKR has?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 8:52 pm (#208 of 1227)

Dumbly-dorr, you are most welcome I will admit that there are certain points of background I would like to know. I would like to see the background information on the other members of the DA, as well as the background info on the Order of the Phoenix especially the original order and the Death Eaters. I hope that her heirs with perform a function like Christopher Tolkien has done for his father.

Nathan Zimmermann

The giant squid - Jun 19, 2004 10:22 pm (#209 of 1227)

I hope that her heirs with perform a function like Christopher Tolkien has done for his father.

That'd be nice, but hopefully it'd be better done than Chris Tolkein did... I mean, Silmarillion was good, but were there really that many lost tales? Wink

Verbina - Jun 21, 2004 5:04 am (#210 of 1227)

Yeah there were that many. Bizarre yes but there were.

It would be fabulous if they were to do that. We all know she has boxes and boxes of information on Harry and his world. Informtaion she said would likely never see publishing because they are more so for herself.

Marcus Aurelius Ravenclaw - Jun 28, 2004 7:51 am (#211 of 1227)

About members of the DA joining the Order... I doubt that any of these people will become full-fledged members while in school- they can't do missions while at Hogwarts very well, and most don't know of its existence. However, I expect that Harry, and Ron and Hermione, either through Harry or directly, will be let in on most of the Orders business that relates to them in anyway. As the DA as a possible recruiting ground, like I said, not likely any of them will be members before they graduate, and I don't expect the books to cover too much of what happens after Harry's year does, but perhaps members older than HRH who come to find out about the order, if any.

Just an aside: I love how we have DA, DADA, and DD's intials are AD. No more than a coincidence, i'm sure, but i like such things. Wonder if there's anymore A/D abbreviations we can make.

StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 3:45 pm (#212 of 1227)

I think it will be too dangerous to allow the kids to become members of the Order, although a lot of what's going on will concern Harry. I wonder though if he might be let in on a little more information from the Order in the future, since he always seems to find out anyway^_^ but also since DD has gotten himself into trouble for keeping secrets from Harry. DD would be the kind of person to admit when he is wrong and learn from his mistakes, so I see a lot more information becoming available to Harry in the future, although I doubt the Order would need to reveal much more to him than what concerns him. He will have a lot of questions they will need to answer or maybe could help him to answer. Some of this information may be passed on to those members of the DA who are closest to him, but I don't see it shaping the DA in any way or making them in any way like a younger version of the Order. Those closer members will realise now how important the DA was and maybe still could be, even though they may not have to deal with the restrictions they had in book 5... unless, as someone in another post [I forget who though] mentioned, the new MoM turned out to be an unknown DE.. Now that would put a new twist on things^_^

Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 3:48 pm (#213 of 1227)

I think that Harry will definitely be privy to more Order of the Phoenix information, if only for the fact that a lot of it does relate to him. Like Lupin said, it is better that Harry & co. get information about Voldemort directly from them, than other "less reliable" sources, or something like that.

Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 3:38 pm (#214 of 1227)

I think that Harry will be admitted as a sort of "honorary" member of the Order. By that, I mean that he will be admitted to meetings, but he will not be sent on any missions.

In an earlier post, someone said that whether or not the other members of the DA will be admitted depends on how many adult members they recruit. However, now that news of Voldemort's return has been made public, I don't think that will be much of a problem.

As for Harry not being allowed into the Order for fear that he will reveal information to LV via Legilimency, I'm quite sure that Harry will be resuming his Occlumency lessons, especially after the ordeal with Snape.

Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2004 6:59 am (#215 of 1227)

Despite the name Dumbledore's Army seems to be Potter's Army. He, and Hermione, organized it. Harry trained it and led it into battle.

They came together for two purposes, as I recall it. To practice the DADA that they were not getting in class and to get ready to battle Lord V.

I don't think that most of the members have even heard of The OOTP. This would seem to make them unlikely to ask to join. I'm not sure that they will be asked.

I think that the DA will continue, maybe change it name, and be very active in the 2nd Lord V war. It will probably gain new members, maybe many, and lose quite a few.

Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 10, 2004 4:27 pm (#216 of 1227)

The fact that there are no slytherins is probably because of like you all said, they are not friends of any members. I do not however think that all slytherins are bad. Many of thier parents are Death Eaters, but i don't think the parents tell thier kids all about what they do. I think that, the slytherins are more cluless about the Dark Arts than everyone thinks, until at least, they get to be old enough to discover thier parents secret

Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 10, 2004 4:32 pm (#217 of 1227)

A reply to Dumblydore: Dean lives with his mother and stepfather.If you look under extra stuff on JKR's site you will see that his biological father was killed by death eaters, but not because he wouldn't join them

drippan - Jul 12, 2004 11:47 pm (#218 of 1227)

Here's my question:

How did the OotP come about and how did they select their members?

I figure Serious, Lupin, James, and Lilly were still in school when LV was strong. Did they form their own club in school and become members after they left? They got married right out of school and had Harry a year later. I figure they were 20 or 21 when they died.

I can't remember how long LV was in power before James and Lilly were killed. Anyone out there knows?

I can see DA continuing on as an open club. Harry might be the student leader but that doesn't have to mean that he has to teach every new member. Don't forget he has trained 22 (minus the ones who left school) other people who can pass the knowledge they learned from Harry to the newer members. Harry will of course become stronger and pass that knowledge on.

And meetings can go on without Harry being there so he'll have time for Quidditch which will always remain his first love.

I see DA as going back to their original mission statement of protecting ones self but with an elite group (special forces?) that gathers information, interpits it and acts upon it. This doesn't mean that they'll share this info with all DA members. They didn't do it in Book 5 and I can't see them doing it ever in the future.

I think DA is what the Sorting Hat was talking about when it mentioned that all the houses must unite.

Another question is does this club really need a teacher sponsor? DD obviously knew about DA as did the OotP and Umbridge. I'll guarantee that there are other clubs at Hogwarts that don't have a teacher sponsor. Quidditch comes to mind in that none of the teams are coached by the teachers but they are left on their own. Yes, the Head of Houses do support their teams but they don't go out and oversee their practices or give them instructions on how to play. McGonagol was a Quidditch player (movie....sorry) and it would seem that if anyone had any input, it would be her.

Anybody recall the other clubs out there? I know some are mentioned in Book 5 because at the Quidditch try outs some of the students said that they would not let Quidditch come before there other clubs.

Laurelin - Jul 13, 2004 1:40 am (#219 of 1227)

I can't remember how long LV was in power before James and Lilly were killed. Anyone out there knows?

Roughly ten years... but he was gaining strength throughout that whole time ... have a look at the HP-Lexicon Article about Voldemort: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't really see the DA as continuing... at least not when (like I hope) Dumbledore manages to get a competent DADA-teacher this year... I hope more that Hary will recieve lots of extra Defense-lessons (from various teachers), maybe, if indeed the DA continues the original members can train others... I don't want Harry "wasting his time" teaching others (new members) the "Expelliamus"-spell when there is so much more he needs to learn...

Steve Newton - Jul 13, 2004 6:08 am (#220 of 1227)

Laurelin, I'd have to say that DA is no longer a student activity, exactly. It has become Harry's army. I'd suggest that it is almost like a family in 'The Godfather' but with a more noble goal.

I think that the members feel that they are sort of an elite force fighting evil. I think that they are right.

They may or may not grow with Dumbledore's open support. I think that they may now feel that they are somewhat exclusive.

Drippan's comment about DA being the uniting of the houses is a good one that I had not thought of before. I think that it may be correct.

Who from Slytherin will join or be invited?

drippan - Jul 13, 2004 6:52 am (#221 of 1227)

I got to disagree with the term "Harry's Army". Harry would never ever let anyone put themself into danger. He tried to talk everyone out of going to the DoM. Also, the acronym sucks: HA! Think of it as a laughing matter.....

Maybe it will go back to the original of "Defensive Army". "Dumbledore's Army" was put out there as a joke to Umbridge and the MoM.

John Crichton - Jul 13, 2004 8:48 am (#222 of 1227)

I see the DA continuing throughtou the rest of the books. And as drippan stated it will most likely go back to its original name "Defense Association" now that "Dumbledore's Army" is no longer needed as a nod to the worst fears of Fudge and Umbridge with both now out of power. The DA will serve as the uniting force in hogwarts with slytherins starting to devide between the DE loyalists and the non DEs. Some of those will now realize they need more and will prompt to join the DA giving us more info on the inner workings of Slytherin and any secrets Malfoy is upto. As stated many times Harry won't be doing all the teaching he will only work with the more advanced members most likely with aid of Dumbledore or even Snape since he is so keen at become DADA teacher. This would most likely be his only way to achieve that ambition but first he and Harry must put aside their differences and disagreements.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 13, 2004 9:12 am (#223 of 1227)

Yes, as I mentioned somewhere before in this thread, I see DA morphing into the DADA study group/club. We should start to see some of the Slytherins wanting to join.

Anna Osipova - Jul 13, 2004 1:36 pm (#224 of 1227)

I think they might keep the name "Dumbledore's Army" as a reminder of the first year. Often, what kept them going to the lessons was simply to spite Umbridge.

I don't think that Snape will take over the club. In fact, I think DD will allow Harry to continue taking charge. He did do a pretty good job after all. Besides, I'm sure Neville will be a much better learner if Snape isn't there.

I agree with Marcus that it will become a DADA club. It will become more of a school-wide activity for anyone who wants to join, not just the original DA's.

Magical Max - Jul 14, 2004 4:31 am (#225 of 1227)
Edited Jul 14, 2004 5:32 am

In any case Malfoy had better watch himself. Now that the DA can practise their DADA spells, hexes and charms in the open, his nickname may change from Malfoy the Amazing Bouncing Ferret to Malfoy the Human Guinea Pig.

The DA blasted Malfoy's gang in the train in OotP. I don't think they would hesitate to let him have it again if he gave them any more trouble.

Tomoé - Jul 14, 2004 9:07 pm (#226 of 1227)
Edited Jul 14, 2004 10:08 pm

Plus, there were no less than three prefects in the "hexers" DA gang, there's no student that could stop them.

Ff3girl - Jul 15, 2004 12:24 am (#227 of 1227)

A while ago, someone mentioned something about the DA being a waste of time for Harry, because he would just be reteaching everybody how to do imperio and other basic spells.

I don't think that's a waste of time! True, Harry has pretty much already mastered these skills, but the rest of his classmates haven't. How screwed would Harry have been at the MoM battle if he didn't have those other five whose skills he had so drastically improved? It could have turned out a lot worse, that's for sure.

Other people have said that if there's a competent DADA teacher in the next book, there will be no need for the DA. I disagree. These students have had competent teachers for at least two years. Lupin was wonderful, and Crouch/Moody (thought he was a little loony) still was a competent teacher, was he not? Still, most of the students who came to the DA during Harry's fifth year had trouble with basic spells. I don't think this necessarily says anything against the teachers, because teachers can only do so much. Its up to the students to refine those skills, and that's what the DA is for.

That's why I hope it will stick around. ^_^

Laurelin - Jul 15, 2004 1:02 am (#228 of 1227)

Ff3Girl, the reason why I said that I don't want Harry to "waste his time" teaching others basic spells over and over again is becasue I believe that there are many other things he needs to learn... what I am hoping for are extra classes for Harry (taught by Dumbledore/ McGonagall/ Snape/ Flitwick...). The original members of the DA can of course continue training newcomers in those basic spells, my hope is though that a competent teacher will provide good training for all students and maybe even help out with the DA if it continues to exist. Smile

Courtney22 - Jul 15, 2004 1:40 pm (#229 of 1227)

I don't think Harry would have to teach every student everything. If someone was new or need help with the basics why couldn't some of the other DA members show them how to improve. I've always felt you know something much better after you have taught someone else how to do it. Teachers often let students who have shown they know the material help students who aren't catching on as quickly. They could always do that in the DA.

total hatred - Jul 15, 2004 7:19 pm (#230 of 1227)

I agree with the idea that DA is unstoppable. 6 prefect against 2 prefects. I also considering possibility of that there will be no DADA teacher next term. Dumbledore can make an excuse of what the members of the DA have done last term not to hire new DADA teachers, insisting that it will be better that student themselves teach each other DADA considering the DADA OWL grades of the members

Tomoé - Jul 15, 2004 8:11 pm (#231 of 1227)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 9:11 pm

LOL! I never consider that option, but it can't be worst than Umbridge, they were only reading the book in her classes. In fact, it would have been more useful if they had spent that time in the library.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 16, 2004 2:13 am (#232 of 1227)

That the likes of Lockhart and Umbridge got the job as DADA teacher is a sign of just how hard it is to find someone willing to do the job...

Still, I very much doubt that APWBD will stop looking for a teacher. Unless he means for Harry to take the DADA NEWT a year and a half too early...

Nah... It's a silly idea. It'd never work. We'll get another DADA teacher, who should have been mentioned in the previous books but suspiciously wasn't...

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 12:57 pm (#233 of 1227)

Has anyone considered the possibilty that perhaps Dumbledore might not want to be associated with militant terrorist teenagers, and request that the DA be shut down?

Also, one idea for a plot which might occur: a Slytherin (i.e. Malfoy) joins the DA. The students know he's a spy for the Death Eaters, but because they can't really discriminate against individuals, he remains in the group.

Chris. - Jul 18, 2004 1:01 pm (#234 of 1227)

...militant terrorist teenagers...

The DA doesn't use terrorism to achieve their goal. That's why it's first name was the Defense Association.

And I hope if a Slytherin joins the DA, it's Theodore Nott.

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 1:06 pm (#235 of 1227)

Heh. I would like to see Slytherins join the DA too, especially Malfoy--just so that he can create all sorts of havoc! I'd like to see Nott turn into the "good" Slytherin too by taking it seriously. That way the other Houses can learn that they can't judge all Slytherins by their covers.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 3:23 pm (#236 of 1227)

True, the DA doesn't technically use terrorism - but the fact is that by calling themselves "Dumbledore's Army" they are effectively a militant organization.

Ozymandias - Jul 18, 2004 4:31 pm (#237 of 1227)

But a militant organization uses violence to achieve a goal. The DA exists only to defend itself, in the event that a member is attacked. They don't go out seeking conflicts. It's like the difference between someone learning karate because they're afraid of being mugged and someone learning karate so they can beat up on people for fun.

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 4:52 pm (#238 of 1227)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 5:53 pm

Army. [n] a large number of people united for some specific purpose

Doesn't have to be militant. I liked the suggestion of "army of words." Ants aren't militant, but we describe them as an army of ants.

And I have to get off the definition kick. I'm having far too much fun on that dictionary website!

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 5:43 pm (#239 of 1227)

I'm talking about the way it might look. If, say, I'm an American and I support John Kerry or George Bush (not trying to start any political arguments here) and start "Kerry's Army" or "Bush's Army", I'll be seen as a militant.

Ozymandias - Jul 19, 2004 12:09 am (#240 of 1227)

You'd be seen as a militant by people who only looked at the group's title. If you were, say, handing out leaflets for your candidate of choice, anyone who looked at that activity would see that you weren't militant. In that case, you would still be an army by the definition schoff provided.

Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 2:03 am (#241 of 1227)

Luke, are you suggesting that an army means militants? Forgive me but I think calling DA a 'militant' organisation, is as good as calling Order of Pheonix a 'militant' organisation. They both have same primary aims in OotP: to fight LV. Both of them were underground. Don't judge an organisation by their Names; judge them by their Aims.Now, do you still feel DA is a 'militant' organisation? If you still think so, APWBD will have no problem with DA since he leads OTP himself.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 10:25 am (#242 of 1227)
Edited Jul 19, 2004 11:28 am

What I'm saying is that Dumbledore might at least request that the title be changed. Titles mean a lot in PR - and considering that both the DA and the OOTP are likely to become a lot more public, having a name which is officially something like "Defense Association" might be prudent.

EDIT: And yes, I would consider the OOTP to be a militant organization. They are an organization which practices martial arts (in the original sense of "military tactics") to fight a specific enemy.

Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 11:04 am (#243 of 1227)

I agree with myself.

Catherine - Jul 19, 2004 1:40 pm (#244 of 1227)

I have a problem with calling the DA "militant."

It was originally named the DA for "Defense Association." The students were upset that they weren't learning practical defense, so they formed an association.

Militant, to me at least, implies agression. I think that the students are "aggressive" only to the extent that they are motivated to learn how to protect themselves. They are not militant in the sense that they are behaving aggressively toward other groups, or picking fights, or starting warfare. They also don't seem to have the conservative ideology that is also implied in the word "militant."

I apologize if this posts relies on semantics, but I take word choice very seriously!

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 1:55 pm (#245 of 1227)

I agree it's semantics. I'm commenting on how the group will be seen by outsiders, and Dumbledore's reaction to that perception. In other words, I'm wondering if Dumbledore may ask in Book Six that the name be officially changed to "Defense Association".

S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 2:45 pm (#246 of 1227)

The truth of the matter is that the group was seen as militant by Fudge. I doubt Dumbledore will see it that way, but others may see it as Fudge did, others may see it as Dumbledore does. If Dumbledore is smart (and you know he is) he'll sell the group to any worried parents as the 'Defense Association' not 'Dumbledore's Army' and tell them it was just a cut nickname they gave themselves or something while under Umbridge. Basically, I think how others see the group will really depend on how Dumbledore sells it....

drippan - Jul 19, 2004 3:49 pm (#247 of 1227)

I agree with S.E. but to even simplify it more......

LV probably saw the MoM as the only army to fight at first and could have won against.

LV instead had this other group to contend with also, OotP.

Now, he also has DA (doesn't matter if it's Dumbledore's Army or Defense Association) to contend with.

Militant definition: "A militant is a person who eagerly engages in a struggle in order to achieve their goal, thus showing an aggressive disposition without being self-serving. A militant state is a physically aggressive posture in support of an ideology or cause."

Militant organization are neutral in acheiving their goals where a terrorist group usually doesn't care about any one else's ideas.

MoM is not a militant group. They are a government that is self serving to the WW and those who elected them.

OotP and DA are not self serving and does remain neutral when it comes to everyones way of life. They beleive in an ideology (freedom of the WW and right for life). They except anyone who beleives in these rights.

Alot of you I think are getting militant group mixed up with terrorist groups.

Terrorist can care less about anyone else's ideas. LV is a great terrorist group in that he doesn't care how many muggles or wizards die so that he can accomplish his goal (that of taking over the WW and world). He is extremely prejudiced in his selection of his army and he will (if he ever gets power) kill everyone who does not comform to his ways.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth. I hope that helps people out.

DripPan

Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 7:33 pm (#248 of 1227)

That's certainly helped me out DripPan. So, DA and OTP are both 'Militant' groups but not 'Terrorist' groups. Well, I don't have any problem with that; neither will APWBD.

Muggle Doctor - Jul 19, 2004 11:32 pm (#249 of 1227)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 12:34 am

I don't think you could call either group truly "militant": to me, this implies a group that is at best on the very fringe of legality (and perhaps morality). The Order was set up to fight the greatest evil that the Wizarding world has ever known. The Defence Association named themselves "Dumbledore's Army" in honour of their headmaster, and as a means of thumbing their noses against a corrupt political system which was attempting to curtail their learning by means which were dubious at best and illegal at most. Fudge's administration has broken most of its own rules, and forced the resignation in protest of two of the Wizengamot's most senior members.

Fudge was so desperate to manipulate the situation at Hogwarts that he willingly appointed a sadistic underling who pushed her own agenda as much as his, who physically tortured and and assaulted children (Harry's detention and Umbridge's shaking of Marietta when she wouldn't give the answer Umbridge wanted) IN FRONT OF HER BOSS without being reprimanded by him, and was willing to take on the title of Inquisitor (which ANYONE in the wizarding world should know is the title of someone who tortured and burned witches!).

Just who is pushing the edge of legality here? Certainly not the DA, whatever they choose to call themselves! They may not have to call themselves "Dumbledore's Army" any more, but they will almost certainly become the Order's equivalent of a school cadet corps. Remember that there are now six, not one, students who have first-hand experience of battling Death Eaters. Note that they did very well, IMHO, to last as long as they did before help arrived (longer, in fact, than the members of the Order who came to their assistance, and who were reduced in number pretty swiftly!), and might have done even better if Neville's broken nose hadn't stopped him from casting spells properly - he was deadly while he lasted, and when he could no longer do magic, he physically assaulted a death eater who was attacking Harry - that's guts for you!).

Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 2:07 am (#250 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor; Actually it is correct to call DA militant group; at least an illegal group. The fact is it's existance was illegal according to law. Having said that, I don't believe they were morally doing anything wrong. It's just that Wizengamot gives it's judgement based on laws and rules; not based on morality.

The way I see it, there are 3 factions in OotP; MoM; DA/OTP and DEs. Everyone are technically against each other (well, MoM doesn't acknowledge existance of DEs but still). The MoM is the government. OTP and DEs become militant groups working against each other. (Acccording to Law, not Morality) It is true that DA was formed for noble purposes; but they were still illegal after the 'Educational Decree'. Actually, this sort of thing is not strange. It mirrors situation in many Afro-Asian countries during the colonial period. Various 'Freedom struggle organisations' were formed to achieve a noble aim: To gain freedom from the Colonial Powers; but those 'Freedom struggle Organisations' were still illegal according to laws passed in the region by the Colonial Powers.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:52 am

Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 2:09 am (#251 of 1227)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 3:11 am

"I don't think you could call either group truly "militant": to me, this implies a group that is at best on the very fringe of legality (and perhaps morality)."

Well, militant must have connotations that I don't see. According to Merriam-Webster, militant means either "engaged in warfare or combat" or "aggressively active (as in a cause)". Nothing in either definition suggests a stance on legality or morality. A militant group might take it either way in terms of legality or morality.

Anyway, those definitions can definitely (heh) be applied to the OP, but I can see a case against calling the DA "militant".

drippan - Jul 20, 2004 2:24 am (#252 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor,

I have to agree with you on that there is illegalities taking place on all side as far as DA, OotP and MoM.

The action of MoM is far worse than that of both DA and OotP. They forgot who they work for (the witches and wizards who elected them). They started hiding the truth from people who they were to protect and manipulating laws and rules to insure that the truth never came out.

Umbridge reminds me of the "McCarty Era" here in the U.S. where they passed a law saying it was illegal to practice or beleive in communism. They destroyed alot of peoples lives by falsely accusing people just like Umbridge did to Trawlaney, Hagrid and DD. That was one of the most embarassing act in U.S. history.

DA was formed to learn DA. It was not illegal at the time of it's forming but became illegal once Umbridge passed the law about groups and organizations needing approval. She stretched it even further by not approving Gryffindor's Quidditch team right away. DA did not set out to undermine authority but once little things like the above example took place, they saw how corrupt it was and got together other wise. DA's name came about after they had their mission statement, that of learning DADA, and kid's being kid's, decided to poke a little fun at Umbridge's and MoM "unrealistic" rules.

MoM feels threaten by the OotP. Fudge has always felt threaten by DD and has grown to love power. He is systematically going after those he knows that were in the order before and DD being the biggest threat, is attacking him publicly through the media. Fudge is even controlling what is released by the media which (me being an American) is one of the biggest no-no's.

Neither group (DA or OotP) is doing it to take over the authority of those above them. OotP doesn't want to over throw the MoM just like DA doesn't want to over throw and run Hogwarts.

It's going to be a different interaction in HBP when MoM gets a new MoM. There is going to be no choice but to impeach Fudge for all the actions he's taken in the last year (and, I do beleive JKR said there was going to be a new one). Once this happens, it won't be illegal for the meeting of either group and probably form some type of cooperation between OotP and MoM and also between DD and DA.

DripPan

Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 2:28 am (#253 of 1227)

They destroyed alot of peoples lives by falsely accusing people just like Umbridge did to Trawlaney, Hagrid and DD. --Drippan.

DripPan, Umbridge was not wrong in accusing Trelawney. Hermione's right, the woman's a fraud.

drippan - Jul 20, 2004 2:38 am (#254 of 1227)

Tornedo, "Umbridge was not wrong in accusing Trelawney. Hermione's right, the woman's a fraud."

And who says that Umbridge has that right to call her a fraud?

You can have your reason to call her a fraud, but Umbridge has no authority to call her one. Well, maybe one, and that is that she is working for the MoM and has the right to do what she wants.

As far as Tralawney being a fraud argument, I'll leave that to her thread..... Smile

DripPan

Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 2:41 am (#255 of 1227)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 3:43 am

Yes... It's fine to speak of Umbridge or Trelawney relative to the DA (well, not Trelawney, since she has nothing to do with the DA), but let's not let the thread go off-topic.

Steve Newton - Jul 20, 2004 6:12 am (#256 of 1227)

I was just reading the Neville thread. The consensus, and I agree, is that he will redouble his efforts to fight the DEs, especially Bellatrix.

I think that others will agree with him, though not for the same reasons.

I don't see the DA members being willing to go back to a DADA class to learn. They are already better than most of the teachers they have had. Except for Harry.

I did not get a hint that Dumbledore disapproved of them meeting. (Could this have been how the OOTP started.) I don't see how anyone else could stop them from continuing.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 1:31 pm (#257 of 1227)

I guess the idea that Dumbledore would not like them being called Dumbledore's Army comes from the fact that the name was used without Dumbledore's permission. I guess it's sort of like a copyright thing.

However, Dumbledore showed little or no surprise when he saw that the group was called Dumbledore's Army. I guess he must have known; he can turn himself invisible, after all.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 2:19 pm (#258 of 1227)

Hmm, this gives me a new theory: what if Dumbledore is a Metamorphogus, and can infiltrate the student body that way? Perhaps one of the students is secretly Dumbledore [/b]- Maybe Zacharias Smith? Unlikely, but who knows...

Paulus Maximus - Jul 20, 2004 5:29 pm (#259 of 1227)

Dumbledore would have to have set up the charade 5 years ago, or impersonate one of the students (And that student would be awfully ticked off if he found out that he was being impersonated, even by the headmaster.)

mike miller - Jul 20, 2004 6:16 pm (#260 of 1227)

If the DA continues, and I'm beginning to doubt that it will, it's purpose within the story will change dramatically. If you believe that Hogwarts will have a qualified DADA professor in HBP, then the intitial purpose for the DA goes away. THe DA could serve a new purpose as that which begins to unite the houses against Voldemort and his DE's. The nature and leadership of the DA would probably change with this new objective. The DADA professor could be the sponsor and the DA could become more of a social activity. I put the likelihood of this new DA of coming to pass in HBP about 60 percent.

The majority of the WW, inside and outside Hogwarts, will not know the intimate details of the fight against and and ultimate defeat of Voldemort. The inner workings of the Order and the "personal training" that Harry and company may receive will not be common knowledge. Harry is rapidly growing past the book learning of the class room. Harry's next challenge will be to better understand the magical power within himself, how to control and direct that power. He can't do that in a room with 30 other students. Like all of the books thus far, Harry will be launched into a task or quest that will push is inner skills.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 6:45 pm (#261 of 1227)

Yes, with Harry in his new depressive state, I can't see him with the energy to continue with the DA.

Ff3girl - Jul 20, 2004 7:51 pm (#262 of 1227)

I disagree. I still think that one of the best ways for Harry to fight against Voldemort would be to strengthen the powers of everybody who is on his side and against Voldemort and the DE's. I doubt Harry would have survived at the MoM without the other five students he trained.

Even if they do have a great teacher next year (which they most likely will), the students will still need a way to practice outside of class. I don't think Harry has to be everybody's teacher, but I'm sure he could lead an "advanced" group while the other students practice in groups sorted by their skill levels.

I will be very disappointed if the DA doesn't continue.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 7:55 pm (#263 of 1227)

I agree that it would be best for Harry and others if he continued in the DA - but the fact is that he's been distancing himself from everyone, and I think that this will be the central theme of Book 6 - Harry overcoming his grief and getting back with his friends.

total hatred - Jul 21, 2004 2:37 pm (#264 of 1227)

Harry depressed. I don't think so. I believe Harry is furious and he had more motivation than before to continue the DA

Susurro Notities - Jul 21, 2004 5:20 pm (#265 of 1227)
Edited by Jul 21, 2004 6:20 pm

Let's not forget that Hermione is the founder of the DA. She may continue it with or without Harry. Under Dumbledore the DA could become a legitimate school club with a faculty advisor/leader - Dumbledore? The new DADA teacher? McGonagall?...

drippan - Jul 21, 2004 6:39 pm (#266 of 1227)
Edited Jul 21, 2004 7:40 pm

I just thought of something....

Why can't DA still be a secret club? Yeah, DD knows about it and so does every other teacher.

DD knew about it taking place in OotP and didn't say anything.

Sometimes, it's just best to look the other way....and I can see DD and some of the other teachers take this course of action. We already have proof that DD looks the other way on alot of other matters.

DripPan

Ozymandias - Jul 21, 2004 7:04 pm (#267 of 1227)

But what would be the point of having it secret? The original DA was kept secret because of Umbridge. I don't see any reason why it couldn't now be totally public and open to all, especially with the current state of things. It sounds an awful lot like the dueling club, and that was perfectly legal. It just seems like a lot of extra effort to keep it secret when there's no reason to anymore.

Sir Tornado - Jul 21, 2004 8:00 pm (#268 of 1227)

Well, If it's not a secret any more. The Slytherins would've known about the DA when Malfoy and Umbridge busted it.

The giant squid - Jul 21, 2004 8:04 pm (#269 of 1227)

Well, now everyone knows about the DA, and poor Marietta...so the only way the DA can continue to meet & not get pestered is to keep it secret. Wink

Paulus Maximus - Jul 21, 2004 10:14 pm (#270 of 1227)

The secret didn't last in book 5, and the DA won't remain a secret in the 6th year either. I actually think that Harry will make an announcement to the entire school inviting anyone to join the DA. The fact is, Harry is fighting a war, and he must realize by now that every wand counts in a war.

Detail Seeker - Jul 21, 2004 11:14 pm (#271 of 1227)

While the DA was a secret and not everybody was invited, is was a more reliable group than it may be, if it is open. With the filter of personal invitation gone, the propability of a open or covert Death Nibbler joining and reporting to Voldemort - perhaps via parents, who are Death Eaters - grow. So the character of working may change, the "official" DA being an open group, while a new, secret DA in the sense of a junior Order has to be refounded, where only selected students will practise advanced self defence and even offensive magic and tactics. This group may centre around the sixtett of the MoM battle.

So Harry may have to decide, wether he concentrates on the basic training, just as an annex to the official DADA teaching or if he will continue real preparation for battle . he will not have the time to do both.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 21, 2004 11:19 pm (#272 of 1227)

If Harry gets up to scratch on Potions, he could brew a Veritaserum, have the new applicants drink it, and then ask them about their opinion on Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

That would filter out the Death Nibblers...

Ff3girl - Jul 22, 2004 12:53 am (#273 of 1227)

I don't really think that the death nibblers coming to spy on the DA meetings would even be a problem. I doubt Harry and his friends would ever develop battle plans or discuss the secrets of the OotP.

Really, what good would spying on a DA meeting do to anybody? The only thing they would be able to report is that they're practicing defensive spells... I'm sure the DE's and Voldemort could figure that out for themselves. It really doesn't need to be kept secret now that Umbridge is gone.

drippan - Jul 22, 2004 1:14 am (#274 of 1227)

DA remains a "secret" organization was a poor choice of words on my part.......

What I meant is more of "not approved" organization. Yeah, everyone knows about it (teachers, DD, students) but turns a blind eye to it.

You must admit the students did a really great job of organization and kept it up for quite a few months without Umbridge's knowledge.

Why mess with a good thing?

DripPan

Prefect Marcus - Jul 22, 2004 8:17 am (#275 of 1227)

Perhaps 'unofficial' is a better word, DripPan?

Muggle Doctor - Jul 22, 2004 5:22 pm (#276 of 1227)

Drip Pan,

I see the point of your parallel to the McCarthy era, but I do not think it is quite exact - even Blind Freddy knew that the Soviet Union was hostile to America; and McCarthy sought to attack American communists, viewed (justifiably) as internal representatives of a known external enemy.

I do not think this is truly the case in Harry's world: Fudge is simply trying to discredit anyone who is telling the truth (which, when known, will cost him his job on the grounds of incompetence at least, and treason at worst). The true parallel is in the way he has let Umbridge loose without imposing checks on her methods.

Steve Newton - Jul 22, 2004 5:50 pm (#277 of 1227)

I am rereading OOTP. Besides the Battle of the Department of Mysteries there was another fight involving the DA. Not a battle. The Skirmish of Hogwarts Express.

Chapter 38, the last chapter in the book.

"Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle...attempted to ambush Harry...The attack might have succeeded had it not been for the fact that they unwittinglly chose to stage the attack right outside a compartment full of D.A. members, who saw what was happening through the glass and rose as one to rush to Harry's aid. By the time Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Anthony Goldstein, and Terry Boot had finished using a wide variety of hexes and jinxes Harry had taught them, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle resembled...three gigantic slugs."

A minor affair, of course. But what do we see. A team recognizing danger, instantly, and acting effectively in concert. None of them Gryffindors.

We have cross house cooperation and a demonstration that they are far beyond the rest of the school in defensive ability.

There is just no way that they will return to take normal DADA classes.

drippan - Jul 22, 2004 6:11 pm (#278 of 1227)

I mentioned over in the Draco thread and mentioned the part on the train.

I was comparing Harry's leadership to Draco's leadership.

Harry respects his students/troops. He trains them, respects them and tries to keep them out of harms way. This in turn will make them respect him right back, and without command, act upon their own accord.

Draco does not care about his troops. He only cares about making a name for himself no matter if it means stepping on his own troops. He will lose more of his followers once they realize this.

I would love to see Ginny (the youngest and a girl) take Draco down. IMO, Draco feels himself superior and is definitely a male sophanist....

DripPan

Steve Newton - Jul 22, 2004 6:26 pm (#279 of 1227)

male sophanist?

Anyway, I agree with your appraisal of leadership styles. Harry will get more initiative and loyalty.

librarian314 - Jul 23, 2004 4:41 am (#280 of 1227)

Hey all!

I think the danger of a Death Nibbler (great term :-) )infiltrating the DA is that they could take names of the other students in the group and give those to their parents who could then go after the families. The students might be safe at Hogwarts; their parents, siblings, and other family are elsewhere, and thus vulnerable.

# *michelle the librarian**

virgoddess1313 - Jul 23, 2004 5:09 am (#281 of 1227)

Steve, I think DripPan means chauvanist... correct me if I'm wrong though! And Draco certianly is that...

Catherine - Jul 23, 2004 8:39 am (#282 of 1227)
Edited Jul 23, 2004 9:39 am

I would love to see Ginny (the youngest and a girl) take Draco down. IMO, Draco feels himself superior and is definitely a male sophanist.... --DripPan

Look no further DripPan. Ginny got Malfoy in Umbridge's office. As Ron said, "But Ginny was best, she got Malfoy--Bat-Bogey Hex--it was superb, his whole face was covered in the great flapping things." (p.760, Scholastic)

I think Ginny has already taken Draco down a notch or two or three!

drippan - Jul 23, 2004 2:20 pm (#283 of 1227)

"Steve, I think DripPan means chauvanist"

Yep, that's what I meant!! Sophiscated word...chauvanist!!

Catherine, I forgot about Umbridge office!! I usually deal with the stuff Harry does, not what other people tell Harry what they did!

Well, my prediction did come true then......in the past!!!

Just call me Professor DripPan, New Devination Professor!

Professor DripPan

Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2004 5:56 pm (#284 of 1227)

DripPan,

Sorry. I thought that it was a trendy new phrase that I hadn't heard yet.

The giant squid - Jul 23, 2004 10:40 pm (#285 of 1227)
Edited Jul 23, 2004 11:40 pm

Just call me Professor DripPan, New Devination Professor!

Hey, all those diviners try to predict the future, you're breaking trends by predicting the past. A rebel! Smile

Ozymandias - Jul 24, 2004 2:02 am (#286 of 1227)

Well it's certainly much easier that way.

I, for one, can see the Death Nibblers forming their own little club to combat the DA. Draco & Co. have to be livid, both for getting hexed by the DA in Umbridge's office and for putting their parents in jail. It seems so very Malfoy-ish to adopt a "well, two can play at that game" type of strategy.

drippan - Jul 24, 2004 2:37 am (#287 of 1227)

Ozymandias, "I, for one, can see the Death Nibblers forming their own little club to combat the DA."

I wrote something like that over in the Draco thread!

Some people think that Draco will be abandoned by his co-horts. I see the opposite (especially children of DE's).

It'll be called VA for "Victory Association" but really means "Voldemort's Army". I'm just wondering would DD turn a blind eye to this organization.....

DripPan

total hatred - Jul 24, 2004 2:53 am (#288 of 1227)

Come on. That has no originality. I still prefer Death Nibblers

drippan - Jul 24, 2004 3:49 am (#289 of 1227)

I love the term "Death Nibbler" too but for some reason, can't see the organiztion calling themselves that......

How about "Malfoy's Organization for Recruiting Oppresive Nitwits Society"........M.O.R.O.N.S. for short.....

Much better?

DripPan

total hatred - Jul 24, 2004 3:59 am (#290 of 1227)

Much better. It represent overall mood of the group

Sir Tornado - Jul 24, 2004 10:55 am (#291 of 1227)

Where did the word 'Death Nibblers' come from? I really liked it. Who coined it?

Weeny Owl - Jul 24, 2004 1:06 pm (#292 of 1227)

both for getting hexed by the DA in Umbridge's office and for putting their parents in jail.

I have to object to "putting their parents in jail."

Malfoy said Harry put his father in prison, but Malfoy is a person who never accepts responsibility for his actions, and I can't see him accepting the fact that Lucius is responsible himself for being in prison.

It may be a matter of semantics, but I feel it's important to keep the two separate. Harry and company are not responsible for anyone being in prison... the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries made their choices (there's Dumbledore's choice theme again) to participate (perhaps Voldie "encouraged" them with a Crucio or two, but they still chose).

As for the DA, it will be interesting to see what results they get on their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s; that is, if we can find out at all what everyone got. Lee Jordan, for instance, stayed at Hogwarts even though Fred and George left, so maybe we'll hear from Fred and George what the seventh years got. As for the DA members in fifth year, I'm sure we'll find out about the trio and the other Gryffindors, but I would also like to know about the rest of the DA.

Dr Filibuster - Jul 24, 2004 3:06 pm (#293 of 1227)

Just for the records...Timrew coined the phrase "Death nibblers"

Catherine - Jul 24, 2004 3:58 pm (#294 of 1227)

Why am I not surprised about "Death Nibblers?"--Tim--you King of Spew--What ARE you up to?

But back on topic somehow, we might be concerned abut Nibblers bugging the DA? So far, the Nibblers need to get their teeth checked, because the DA and Harry's friends take care of things!

drippan - Jul 24, 2004 4:03 pm (#295 of 1227)

"So far, the Nibblers need to get their teeth checked....."

I hear Hermione's parents have an opening next week......

DripPan

S.E. Jones - Jul 24, 2004 8:23 pm (#296 of 1227)

About the DA not being able to return to a normal DADA class, why is that exactly? The argument that they are better than their fellow students is a good arguement why they should make the club more open (so other kids can learn some defense as well), but that doesn't mean they are better than a DADA teacher. Lupin taught Harry the Patronus, Lockhart and Snape taught Harry the dueling, Moody/Crouch helped Harry focus his ability to fight the Imperius, etc. I mean, if something good came from even Lockhart, they are bound to improve with a good DADA teacher next year.... We don't know what they would've/should've been taught in their respective years by a decent, not to mention excellent, DADA teacher because Umbridge made sure the kids didn't learn anything. Yes, they've improved a lot, but who's to say how much more they'd improve if they got a great teacher?....

Ozymandias - Jul 24, 2004 9:39 pm (#297 of 1227)
Edited Jul 24, 2004 10:41 pm

Weeny Owl, I didn't mean to imply that anyone other than the Death Eaters themselves was responsible for their imprisionment. I simply meant that this is the view that Malfoy has taken, and I can see it being echoed among the other DN's, especially those who truly agree with Voldemort's views and believe that their parents weren't doing anything wrong. And I think this is why they'll form M.O.R.O.N.S. or whatever it is we're calling it now, because they'll hold the DA responsible.

Drippan, I didn't mean to steal your idea. I haven't read the Draco thread in a while. But what can I say, other than great minds think alike?

I don't think that there's any reason why the DA can't resume normal DADA classes. There is always a variation in skill levels in any class. However, I do think that their improved skills will be yet another cause of friction with Malfoy & Co, who will be threatened by Harry and the Scooby Gang suddenly being top of the class.

Weeny Owl - Jul 24, 2004 11:11 pm (#298 of 1227)

I didn't mean to imply that anyone other than the Death Eaters themselves was responsible for their imprisionment. I simply meant that this is the view that Malfoy has taken, and I can see it being echoed among the other DN's, especially those who truly agree with Voldemort's views and believe that their parents weren't doing anything wrong. And I think this is why they'll form M.O.R.O.N.S. or whatever it is we're calling it now, because they'll hold the DA responsible.

Ahhhh... gotcha, Oz!

I do think that at least the six from the Department of Mysteries battle need to watch out for any children of Death Eaters imprisoned from said battle. I'm not sure if everyone in the DA will be targeted, but it could easily happen.

Ff3girl - Jul 25, 2004 12:10 am (#299 of 1227)

S.E. Jones: "About the DA not being able to return to a normal DADA class, why is that exactly? ...I mean, if something good came from even Lockhart, they are bound to improve with a good DADA teacher next year.... "

I didn't know there was ever any question that the students in the DA would return to their regularly scheduled DADA classes. But one can only do so much in a class period. Its still up to the students to practice the spells and master them. I think even if Dumbledore were the DADA teacher, they would still have to practice.

I'm not saying they couldn't practice on their own, but having a setting made specifically for practicing DADA outside of class... well, we all saw how great the results were.

Sir Tornado - Jul 25, 2004 2:27 am (#300 of 1227)

Drippan, I didn't mean to steal your idea. I haven't read the Draco thread in a while. But what can I say, other than great minds think alike?-- Ozymandias

"Fools seldom differ." Sorry, Didn't mean to insult either you or DripPan. It just happens to be one of my favourite phrases. Just take it as a harmless, childish joke.

True, DA can't return to a normal DADA class. But DD can form an Advanced DADA class can't he?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:56 am

drippan - Jul 25, 2004 3:45 am (#301 of 1227)

Tornedo,

Joke accepted!!

The only thing scary is Ozy thinking like me.....

"True, DA can't return to a normal DADA class. But DD can form an Advanced DADA class can't he?"

I still see them going to class. Yes, they will be ahead of the rest of the class, but they don't know everything. H/R/Hr and the rest of the (now) sixth years will be in Newt DADA but what about the Creevy boys, Ginny and the others who haven't taken their OWLS? Are they going to all go into a special class for this? I doubt it.

DripPan

Magical Max - Jul 25, 2004 4:28 am (#302 of 1227)

I may have said earlier that Malfoy would try to form his own group to oppose the DA. They will launch some sort of sneak attack and fail spectacularly. Hey, with two chief sidekicks like Crabbe and Goyle - how could they possibly succeed ? I don't know what they would call their group, but you can bet that everyone else in Hogwarts will refer to them as the M.O.R.O.N.S.

total hatred - Jul 28, 2004 2:51 pm (#303 of 1227)

How about Malfoys Organized Resistance Over Neurotic Societies also known as M.O.R.O.N.S.

drippan - Jul 28, 2004 3:02 pm (#304 of 1227)

Draco's Organizing Rejected Knitwits Society or D.O.R.K.S. for short!!

And that way, in Timrew words, they would support the "Dork Lard"!

DripPan

total hatred - Jul 28, 2004 3:13 pm (#305 of 1227)

Hmmm. interesting. very interesting

Professor V - Jul 28, 2004 4:05 pm (#306 of 1227)

I love both!!

shepherdess - Jul 28, 2004 4:30 pm (#307 of 1227)

If we're going to qoute Tim (Timrew), then let's do it right. It was suggested a long time ago (I don't remember by whom) that the children of death eaters would form their own club, or army, and Tim dubbed them "death nibblers".

drippan - Jul 28, 2004 4:37 pm (#308 of 1227)

I was referencing Timrew's use of the word "Dork Lard" vice Dark Lord.

Still love the term "Death Nibblers" though....

DripPan

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 28, 2004 4:39 pm (#309 of 1227)

"If we're going to qoute Tim (Timrew), then let's do it right." " Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself."...can't stop giggling...Death Nibblers...LOL

I'm really afraid now...goes off in a laughing fit!

Magical Max - Jul 29, 2004 3:46 am (#310 of 1227)

Death Nibblers hardly sounds like a name that would instil fear into the populace. Then again, Malfoy and his goon squad are hardly a fearsome bunch. Annoying, yes ! Fearsome, forget it.

How about Slytherins Living In Mentally Empty States - S.L.I.M.E.S.

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 5:25 am (#311 of 1227)

In chapter 16 of OOTP while thinking about where to have DA meetings Harry had "the distinct feeling this one[meeting] might be considered a lot more rebellious."

To me this is the core idea of DA. While it is sort of taking the place of a real class and has practical safety benefits to its members, it is really a rebellion. And rebellions, like wars, often go in unplanned directions. And they can be very hard to stop.

drippan - Jul 29, 2004 8:00 am (#312 of 1227)

Steve Newton, "And rebellions, like wars, often go in unplanned directions."

That's true but only one example. Rebellions can also be good.

I'm sure the females here would agree that the women who started the rebellion to have women have equal rights is a good thing. Now they have a right to vote.

A rebellion is a gang of rebels. They are someone who goes against authority to get things changed.

Harry felt like a rebel because he knew that he was going against authority. Does this mean it's a bad thing? They didn't start DA to start a war or take over the school. They did it to learn self defense.

I'm proud of every member of DA for rebelling. Why? Because they wanted an education and since they had a pretty lame teacher, they took it into their own hands. They didn't become rebels until after the meeting in Hog's Head, then the rule was passed down about unauthorized meetings or teams, and they went ahead with it anyways.

And, in the end, I believe the training they learned saved them in the DoM.

Also, you can call the OotP a rebellious group too! They are going against MoM!

Rebels? Yep. Is it a bad thing? Nope!

DripPan

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 8:12 am (#313 of 1227)

Drippan,

I am by no means saying that rebellions are bad. (I came of age in the 60s after all. I can't believe that I admitted that!) Some, obviously are good. Rebelling against oppression seems to be a good thing.

My point was that it was rebellion. I think even before the Decree making student groups illegal. Rebellions can be hard to stop. I think that the DA has the potential to be a 'loose cannon' in the fight against Lord V.

And, yes, the training that they received certainly helped a lot in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. Perhaps saved many of their lives.

Wondering Eye Moody - Jul 29, 2004 9:04 am (#314 of 1227)

To put my two cents into the lot for why there were no slytherins...since Hermionee did most tof the recruiting, I'm sure she did not want to chance having Draco find out from a slytherin she might of asked. I also think Draco is to Slytherin as Harry is to the rest of the school in some way. THat being the star, so if any slytherins heard of the DA, they probably thought that Draco would dissaprove and so they dismissed the DA.

drippan - Jul 29, 2004 9:28 am (#315 of 1227)

Steve Newton, "I think that the DA has the potential to be a 'loose cannon' in the fight against Lord V."

I can see your point but it seems to me that you think of DA doing something really out of character for the whole group.

When you use the words Rebellions can lead to wars and again "DA has the potential to be a 'loose cannon'", this is showing it in a negative sense.

I think DA has alot more intelligence and personal ethics than to do either.

Now, the Death Nibblers, M.O.R.O.N.S., D.O.R.K.S., or what Malfoys gang will be called, they will be dirty, rotten scroundrels and will start a war and will be a loose cannon.

I do like the "loose cannon" bit though! LV knows about the OotP from previous war. What he doesn't know about is DA!! Maybe not a canon per se, but definitely becoming a formidible weapon!! 6 of them held off 10 DE's for quite a long time!!

I also grew up in the '60s. I bet everyone here is having a good laugh about 2 old farts arguing about HP and about rebellion!!

DripPan

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 9:34 am (#316 of 1227)

Drippan,

I didn't actually say that rebellions lead to wars. They were both sort of examples of things that get out of control. (When does a rebellion become a revolution?)

I was thinking of the DA as more of an elite strike force. Gung ho and ready to go. I could also see them as going off in unsuspected directions. Unexpected to both sides.

Well if they make to much fun of us we can always go on strike and shut them down! Huelga!!!

FCBarca - Jul 29, 2004 10:50 am (#317 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 11:57 am

"I was thinking of the DA as more of an elite strike force."

I wouldn't say 'elite', but they're not bad. One way to see how well they did in the battle is to see how they held the DEs off; and I don't think they (DA) did anything special. All they did was lock a few doors and run. We can't see how well Harry did, because the DEs didn't dare harm him, in case they smashed the prophecy.

We don't really know how powerful the DEs are. I see Lucius as powerful, and Bellatrix is also powerful. But the others, we don't really know. The DA members are above their age, DADA wise, but that doesn't mean that they any real match for an average wizard. (I'm not saying they're not. I don't think they are, but that doesn't mean they're not) The spells DA members use are blockable by using the protego spell, whereas the DEs probably know spells which renders the shield charm useless; the shield Voldemort conjured must block the more powerful ones.

So, I believe the DA is a good group, useful, but not quite a group that could take on an equal amount of DEs, yet, and certainly never take on Voldemort. I don't think Harry would ever be as powerful as Voldemort, not in the next two years, but I'm sure the battle between Voldemort and Harry won't involve knowledge of spells and duelling skills, it'll involve something else.

EDIT: Here's my opinion of the DA: My opinion of DA. NOTE: My opinion has lightened since then.

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 10:57 am (#318 of 1227)

FCB,

You said "The DA members are above their age, DADA wise, but that doesn't mean that they any real match for an average wizard." I mostly agree. At least if you change the end to the average DE. But, the DA has come a long way in a short time. They will get better. I think that the average DA in the BAttle of the Department of Mysteries was better than the average DA but am not sure.

Other members of the DA did pretty well in the skirmish on the Hogwart's Express.

Also, just being willing to go in and muck it up can upset an opponents plans.

Now, does Harry have what Napoleon called 3:00am courage? (I may have the hour wrong but the concept is that you have made your plans as well as you can and you know that some of your people are going to die. Can you stick to the plan?)

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 11:03 am (#319 of 1227)

FCB,

You also bring up another issue. How tough are the DEs? At the end of COS Dumbledore more or less threatens Malfoy with Arthur Weasley (Suggesting that he not let any more LV artifacts get loose.) Since Arthur had been ready and, in fact, did fight Malfoy at the beginning of COS, than it sounds like Arthur is more that Malfoy's match.

How does Malfoy rate on the DE toughness scale?

I guess that this sort of belongs on another thread. I hope that it is clear. I am in a hurry.

FCBarca - Jul 29, 2004 11:06 am (#320 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 12:11 pm

"Other members of the DA did pretty well in the skirmish on the Hogwart's Express."

But that's against other kids, not DE's.

"I think that the average DA in the BAttle of the Department of Mysteries was better than the average DA but am not sure". (is the last "DA" supposed to be "DE"?)

I disagree, I'm afraid. That spell (not sure who used it), the 'slashing' one, which KO'd Hermione was above the DA standard. Bella was trained by Voldemort, so she's obviously above the DA. Remember, the DEs are adults, trained in the Dark Arts, so they're more powerful now than the DA, in my opinion. Also, ignore the line "but not quite a group that could take on an equal amount of DEs, yet...". It's a waste of space. My point was going to be that the DEs will always be more powerful than the kids in combat. But that's not necessarily true.

FCBarca - Jul 29, 2004 11:11 am (#321 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 12:13 pm

Steve, Lucius won the fight in the book shop. And if Arthur found anything illegal in Malfoy's mansion, then it would be handed over to another dept. Also, Malfoy bribes people at the Ministry, and he'd probably end up in Azkaban, so he would lose his position to bribe people, as I doubt he would be allowed back in the Ministry. So that's why he fears Arthur: he could ruin him. It's not a matter of power. Although Arthur could be more powerful than Lucius (I hope so, as I like Arthur), your comment doesn't quite mean he is...

Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 11:30 am (#322 of 1227)

FCB,

"(is the last "DA" supposed to be "DE"?)" No. I was trying to say that the DA members at the battle were better than the average DA member. I have to try to be clearer.

TomProffitt - Jul 29, 2004 11:47 am (#323 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 12:47 pm

The biggest strength of the DA is that they (at least the core members) want to be there, believe in the cause, and are willing to make sacrifices for it. The same is true of the Order of the Phoenix.

Compare this to the biggest weakness of the DE. They are prisoners of the ruthlessness of their own. They must continue to support He Who Must Not Be Named. If the Death Eaters really believed in their cause how come so few actually tried to return the Dark Lord to power? Even for Wormtail it was a last resort.

drippan - Jul 29, 2004 12:01 pm (#324 of 1227)

Steve Newton, "I was trying to say that the DA members at the battle were better than the average DA member."

I don't know about that. Harry, I can understand but I think the rest of the DA crowd would disagree......

The only reason only six went because they had to leave immediately. They were the only ones available....

Neville is a prime example. He still messes up spells but he is getting alot better. I can think of other DA members I rather have.

Another is Fred and George. Yes, they left school but this does not immediately take them out of DA.

DripPan

FCBarca - Jul 29, 2004 12:30 pm (#325 of 1227)

"I was trying to say that the DA members at the battle were better than the average DA member. I have to try to be clearer."

No, it's clear enough, I just hastily read it!

"The biggest strength of the DA is that they (at least the core members) want to be there, believe in the cause, and are willing to make sacrifices for it."

If they were adults, then I would agree wholly. Instead, I only agree partly. They are still young, and probably don't fully understand sacrifice and other things like it. They would understand it, obviously, but I doubt they would understand it properly.

The DEs weakness could also be a strength, from an outsiders point of view. They fear failure, so are just as determined, if not more, than the Order, although that is a matter of opinion. I believe it is more a weakness, than a strength.

timrew - Jul 29, 2004 2:36 pm (#326 of 1227)

Okay, I admit I coined the phrase, 'Death Nibblers'.

But the phrase, 'Dork Lard' is not down to me. It was coined by a member of this Forum called Saralinda, who we haven't seen in ages!

total hatred - Jul 29, 2004 3:23 pm (#327 of 1227)

Magic wise, every witch and wizard is equal. The only difference is the strength of the spells. Since most spells are unblockable, the playing field is equal. It will takes some luck for a novice to take out a wizard but highly possible. Experience may be factor but it still based on luck. Who gets to hits first wins and this can be negated by the strength of the defences of the attacked party. Either shield charms, countercurses and so on. The only way to hit is to break through these magical defences

TomProffitt - Jul 29, 2004 3:38 pm (#328 of 1227)

In the US Army they have what are called battle drills. Anybody can shoot on the rifle range, but you have to practice what to do when a battle comes along. You have to be trained to react quickly and correctly. There is no time to think about what to do in a fight.

This is why Harry is so disappointed in his students being impressed by how pretty their Patronuses are. They aren't there to make pretty swans and otters, they're there to practice what to do when there is no time to think.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 29, 2004 3:54 pm (#329 of 1227)

Well, I noticed that Harry was patiently trying to explain that to his students, which is a good thing.

FCBarra has a very good point. Those children really had no business going to the MoM that night. Let's hope the experience has taught Harry to listen more to that inner voice that whispers, "reckless!"

:-)

TomProffitt - Jul 29, 2004 4:27 pm (#330 of 1227)

He really ought to, Marcus. But do you really think he can? I'm not sure he's grown up enough for that, but perhaps the death of Snuffles will help him listen to that voice.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 29, 2004 5:08 pm (#331 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 6:09 pm

I think that the death of Sirius, and the danger that Harry put his comrades in, have driven that lesson home. We won't be sure until the sixth book, of course, but I would be highly disappointed if Harry made the same mistake twice.

It reminds me of a quote from Gandalf in The Two Towers: "The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes to the heart."

If Harry continues to ignore advice about fire now that he's burned his hands...

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 7:14 pm (#332 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 8:16 pm

"Those children really had no business going to the MoM that night."

Agreed, but you have to remember, we are talking about Teens, or, as I think the term is now "tweens", these children are growing up and learning and feeling some of life's values.

Time for another butterbeer, this time without the "butter"!

S.E. Jones - Jul 29, 2004 7:44 pm (#333 of 1227)

FCBarca: Steve, Lucius won the fight in the book shop.

Actually, Hagrid won. He's the one who seperated them....

Paulus Maximus: I think that the death of Sirius, and the danger that Harry put his comrades in, have driven that lesson home. We won't be sure until the sixth book, of course, but I would be highly disappointed if Harry made the same mistake twice.

I have to agree. I wonder how this new thinking might affect the DA..? Will it cause him to move even slower with what they are studying? Some of the DA members, particularly Zacharias Smith, seemed to express some irritability at their slow paced lessons. Could Harry encounter more trouble from him or other DA members if he starts becoming more cautious and slowing things down. Or, would he want to teach them even more, even faster, now that he's been directly burnt by Voldemort's DEs. Maybe he'll be in an even bigger hurry to teach them defense. How would this affect the DA if he started acting a bit like Mad-Eye?....

Any ideas?

Ff3girl - Jul 29, 2004 8:38 pm (#334 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 9:38 pm

"Those children really had no business going to the MoM that night."

I would agree. But then, I would also agree that Harry had no business going after the Sorcerer's Stone, the Chamber of Secrets, the Shrieking Shack...

What I'm trying to say, is that all the other times that he ran off to play the hero, it all turned out great in the end. He followed his instincts and saved the day. But this time, he followed his instincts and the only person he would count as family was killed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Harry and the other DA members for doing what they believed was right, because that's what Harry did every other time and it turned out to be a good decision.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 9:07 pm (#335 of 1227)
Edited Jul 29, 2004 10:10 pm

Ff3, I am not trying to be hard on Harry, I am just expressing what teens go through, is a roller-coster of ideas, emotions, morals, and the real world all coming at you like a steam engine.

By the by...I saw a few comments about "old farts", us children of the 60's? I resemble that remark, maybe we ought to get together over a butterbeer.

Anyway, back on the steam roller track, we all have opinions as to why Harry and others reacter the way they did, but all comes backto the way JKR chose to tell the story...there's that word again. A major thread woven into this story is the tweens growing up... we not hard, just real :-)

And them tweens, they going to take every chance they can! Maybe I'm wrong, maybe "playing the hero" is a British term, but to me seems to paint all rash behavior with a broad brush. Maybe they just acting like teens?

FCBarca - Jul 30, 2004 1:50 am (#336 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 2:51 am

Total Hatred, I disagree with the luck bit. I think experience is the most important thing. Experience of spells and combat, like what Dumbledore and Voldemort have, is better than anything else, in my opinion. Also, I'm sure you'll find most spells are blockable; the only spells we know that are unblockable are the Unforgivable's (although you can conjure a solid object, or transfigure a solid object, to block it, so although a single spell can't block it, there are ways to block it.) Voldemort blocked a very powerful spell with a conjured shield, so the most powerful spells appear to be blockable.

FCBarca - Jul 30, 2004 3:50 am (#337 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 4:51 am

"Actually, Hagrid won. He's the one who separated them...."

Out of Lucius and Arthur, Lucius won.

Like I said in an earlier post, my opinion has lightened over the DA. But I still think they should learn what they learn in the DA purely for defence, and not so that when they leave school, they can join the fight. (Remember, we know it will end before they leave school, but they don't, which is the main reason why I've lightened up, because what they are doing is right, unless they get carried away.)

Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 5:39 am (#338 of 1227)

"Those children really had no business going to the MoM that night."

Agreed. But...The results were definitely positive. Lord V was exposed, Fudge possibly deposed, the prophecy destroyed, and 5 more battle tested veterans.

Is this all the authors way of making things come out right? Don't know. But by forcing the action, making your opponent react to you, you can make your opponent make mistakes.

In military talk this would be called the concept of the initiative.

Detail Seeker - Jul 30, 2004 6:11 am (#339 of 1227)

That's true, Steve. But I fear, that, in the next dubious situation, Harry will wait too long to get in action and thus cause another death. Then the lesson possibly learned in the DoM-battle will backfire.

Czarina II - Jul 30, 2004 9:01 am (#340 of 1227)

I'm slightly confused. I thought "tweens" were kids aged 9 to 13 or so, and that "teens" were kids aged 13 to around 18. By my count, Harry and co. have outgrown being tweens since PoA.

I agree that things actually turned out well because of Harry's rash decision to go to the DoM. They just didn't turn out too well for Harry (he lost his godfather), Sirius (obviously), and the OoP (who have lost a member, though he couldn't leave his house anyhow). Others were injured, but most of them think it was worth it. Only Harry doesn't think so because he is too caught up in Sirius's death.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 30, 2004 10:47 am (#341 of 1227)

Czarina: A major thread woven into this story is the tweens growing up... from age 11 to the present.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 30, 2004 2:39 pm (#342 of 1227)

I can't see how things turned out well. As mentioned above, Sirius died - he was important - and what was gained? Yes, Harry knew about the Prophecy, but Dumbledore had to be about to tell him at some point...

TomProffitt - Jul 30, 2004 2:48 pm (#343 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 3:48 pm

Two big important positive things happened for the Order of the Phoenix as a result of the Battle of the DoM:

1) He Who Must Not Be Named was brought clearly into the open, forcing all of the Wizarding World to recognize his return.

2) The bulk of the loyal Death Eaters were exposed and put into Azkaban (even if only temporarily, this is good because we know who they are now and it costs them much of their influence, e.g. no more Malfoy lurking in the Ministry).

total hatred - Jul 30, 2004 3:12 pm (#344 of 1227)

True the spells can be blocked that is why I said the probability of blocking the spell is dependent of the defense of the target. The question is how many wizard bothered to set up defenses during the fight. Only a few and most spell are fast enough to catch you offguard before you can create a defense

Solitaire - Jul 30, 2004 6:14 pm (#345 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 7:17 pm

I am only part of the way through this thread, but Laurelin's post #219 stopped me. She says the following:

"I don't want Harry "wasting his time" teaching others (new members) the "Expelliamus"-spell when there is so much more he needs to learn..."

As one who has been a teacher for the past 18 years, I can tell you from experience that NOTHING has made me stronger or more knowledgeable in my field than the realization that I MUST know what I am doing if I am going to successfully teach others. Understanding that he is accepting the responsibility for helping others learn to arm and defend themselves puts Harry in the very serious position of having to be sure and secure in his own abilities. I think supervising the DA is the perfect proving ground for him.

Teachers must research and understand the concepts they are teaching--and know why they are important--if they hope to communicate the importance of those concepts to their students. My students want to know how our subject will help them in REAL LIFE. Harry's do, too.

Witness Zacharias Smith's snotty little comment at the first meeting: "Oh, please! ... I don't think Expelliarmus is exactly going to help us against You-Know-Who, do you?" to which Harry quietly replied that he'd used it against Voldemort and it had saved his life.

Harry has been in the trenches and understands to the core of his being what he is trying to teach the kids to do and why. Does he need more DADA training? Without a doubt.

Harry is an outstanding Quidditch player, but he still needs to practice moves and strategies if he wants to stay at the top of his game. In the same way, the DA meetings provide Harry and the others the opportunity to practice what they are learning in class.

Far from "wasting his time," I believe that working with the DA has helped Harry strengthen and hone his own skills. I am hoping the importance of the DA will be recognized and promoted by Dumbledore and the teaching staff in Harry's sixth year.

Solitaire

The One - Jul 30, 2004 6:23 pm (#346 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 7:24 pm

The biggest strength of the DA is that they (at least the core members) want to be there, believe in the cause, and are willing to make sacrifices for it.

I was thinking of the DA as more of an elite strike force.

I feel that some of the discussion here is based on a false assumption about what DA was. It was Defence Association, a study group to train students in individual self-defence skills. It was not an “army”, in fact the name “Dumbledore’s Army” was chosen in order to make fun of the MoM’s idea that Dumbledore might organize the students into a proper army.

The DA was a study and training group, not a combat organisation. It was never intended to fight any battles, and Harry was the DA’s instructor, not its commander. The activity in the group was to practice individual skills, but all the other elements needed to make a combat unit was lacking. There was never any emphasis on tactics, neither was the group divided into squads and teams with associated leaders.

One officer and 20 odd soldiers with no organization and no training whatsoever outside of the “rifle range” does not make an “Army” in any sensible sense.

The only reason only six went because they had to leave immediately. They were the only ones available....

There is no indication anywhere that Harry, Hermione, or Ron ever considered the possibility to mobilize their “army” for the task. Neville used the training in DA to argue that he should be allowed to join, but that is the only indication anywhere of this kind of reasoning.

My point is that if we get a proper DADA teacher in the next book, the DA is no longer needed, even if it may exist as a “study group”. If it is any signs that the group consider it self as a combat unit or OotP jr. Dumblodore is bound to disband it. I do not see that JKR will allow Dumbledore to recruit children soldiers in an organized way in the books.

I expect that the DA will cease to exist, simply to give room for new plot development, but that the contacts the trio now have in other houses as a result of the DA will be useful in some way.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 30, 2004 6:39 pm (#347 of 1227)
Edited by Jul 30, 2004 7:41 pm

I expect D.A. will serve a useful purpose as a DADA study group. It would also serve to encourage inter-house cooperation and promoting school unity. New friendships will come from it.

If Harry remains the leader, it also trains him in leadership skills, and helps him keep his DADA skills sharp. It will provide a ready practice ground to practice advanced techniques he and others are sure to be studying this year.

I doubt it will exist in the form it was last year. But a DADA study group/club is just what the doctor ordered, IMO

Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 7:35 pm (#348 of 1227)

One,

They may have started out thinking of themselves as a class and there may not have been many of them but they are an army. I am convinced more by the actions on Hogwarts Express that the Department of Mysteries. They instantly recognized a dangerous situation, used their skills, and acted as a team.

They are ready!

How many do their have to be to be an army? I don't know. But given the apparent size of the wizarding community, they have a good start.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 30, 2004 7:45 pm (#349 of 1227)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 8:48 pm

According to Merriam-Webster, an army is "a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land".

Large organized body: Depends on what you consider "large," but the DA are about 25 strong. Definitely organized, though.

Of armed personnel: Well, a wizard with a wand is considered "armed," so the DA fulfill this criterion.

Trained for war especially on land: This is a bit ambiguous; the DA are definitely trained to defend themselves, but whether they are trained for war could be argued either way.

In any case, the DA can only get larger now that the war has begun, and any training that they undergo will be in preparation for the war. If they weren't an army in book 5, they will probably become more of an army in book 6.

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 7:46 pm (#350 of 1227)

They are ready! -- Steve Newton.

I'm afraid you're getting your hopes too high. Voldemort would be able to kill the entire army (except Harry) in one wave of his wand. They are certainly not ready.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:59 am

Solitaire - Jul 30, 2004 7:53 pm (#351 of 1227)

I still look for McGonagall (or hopefully a competent new DADA teacher) to be the staff sponsor for the DA, which I see as an important group, given the coming War. I think DD has already figured out that this group of kids is NOT going to be sidelined from the action, no matter what Molly says. DD has had five years to carefully observe Harry, and he is as aware of Harry's "saving people thing" as Hermione can be. He now knows that there are at least four other kids who are just as stubborn and determined.

Knowing this, I think he may feel it is important to keep this group going as a practice group ... but monitor them and work with them on other issues--like the importance of being emotionally, mentally, and strategically prepared to do battle; the wisdom of not acting rashly; and the necessity of keeping the appropriate people informed of their actions.

I could say more, but I suppose the gist of it probably belongs in another thread.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 8:12 pm (#352 of 1227)

Tornedo,

Tell it to the light brigade!

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 8:16 pm (#353 of 1227)

I will. But I don't think they'll listen to me.

FCBarca - Jul 31, 2004 12:23 am (#354 of 1227)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 1:24 am

Total Hatred, you said "Since most spells are unblockable..."

I was just saying that most spells are blockable. About the defense and that, that is why I said I believe experience is the most important thing, as experience teaches you what to do and not do in a duel.

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 2:16 am (#355 of 1227)

Yes all spells are blockable. Even AK is. True, there is no counter curse for AK; but you can block it with solid objects (Stone Statues)

The One - Jul 31, 2004 2:29 am (#356 of 1227)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 3:37 am

Steve Newton

Mustering 25 people make it a small platoon in a muggle army, and I have no problems accepting a platoon-sized army. It is just that the DA was never intended to be, never trained as, and never organized as a combat unit. The DA was 25 individuals, it was not a small army.

The wizards paramilitary police force, the Aurors, have three years full time training after completing DADA NEWTS, and then join the fry led by experienced veterans. These kids had about one training session a week for half a year, and had not completed DADA as teached at Hogwarts. (Of course, if Dumbledore does not come up with a proper teacher soon the last point is no great loss). You want to send these kids into battle without any proper organization, no small unit tactics and led by an overemotional teenager? A brilliant plan, if the objective is to wipe out an entire generation of British wizards.

As for the ambush on Malfoy’s ambush on Harry. That fight is very similar to Harry, Hermione, Ron, Fred, and George hexing Malfoy and his cronies at the end of GoF, before any "army" existed. You do not need an army to win a schoolboy fight; you only need more friends available than your opponent :-). And DA has expanded the circle of Harry’s friends. That is what I expect to be the lasting impact of DA.

TomProffitt - Jul 31, 2004 4:11 am (#357 of 1227)

The problem with the DA is that nobody realizes what it is. They never really planned on what it was supposed to be.

We can see from Harry's reluctance to take anyone with him to the DoM that he never considered it as an actual combat unit. We can infer from the first scene of OP that Harry expects to see DE attacks anywhere and anytime. I believe Harry sees the DA as preparing his classmates to defend themselves if they are caught up in one of these random attacks, not to go on the offensive.

For the members it is apparent that there is a different purpose for the DA for each member. I don't think Cho and Marietta would have joined the ad hoc mission to the DoM, Lavender and Parvati (and many others) would have.

I'm certain Fred and George expected a much more active role for the DA than it has had so far.

Members like Dean, Seamus, Lavender, etc., didn't really know what to expect and probably never thought it through.

For Ginny and Neville (and probably Susan) the prospect of needing these skills at any moment is something they have learned from unpleasant experience. Ron and Hermione probably fit in this group to a slightly lesser extent.

Dumbledore, I suspect, had a wide variety of reasons for allowing it to continue, but I doubt he wanted any of its members to run off to the DoM.

The disadvantage of the DA is that no one knows what it's supposed to be. It's an informal group, its members are not going to allow it to be disbanded. Like HRH and the troll in PS/SS, they have gone through experiences that cannot help but make them into close friends. Disbanded by Dumbledore or not, they will always think of themselves as the DA whether or not they continue their meetings.

The One - Jul 31, 2004 4:34 am (#358 of 1227)

TomProffitt

We can see from Harry's reluctance to take anyone with him to the DoM that he never considered it as an actual combat unit. We can infer from the first scene of OP that Harry expects to see DE attacks anywhere and anytime. I believe Harry sees the DA as preparing his classmates to defend themselves if they are caught up in one of these random attacks, not to go on the offensive.

This is exactly what I see as the purpose of DA, but you are completely right, the purpose was never clearly stated or agreed upon.

Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2004 5:22 am (#359 of 1227)

One,

You say "if the objective is to wipe out an entire generation of British wizards."

Somewhere JKR said the the muggle and wizarding worlds will never come back together. (Obviously, not a direct quotation.) I sometimes wonder if the end of the wizarding world is where this is going. Harry will get to be a 'normal' boy. I hope that this is just idle conjecture.

FCBarca - Jul 31, 2004 6:14 am (#360 of 1227)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 7:15 am

The DA was started because Hermione felt that they weren't going to learn much that year, and with Voldemort back, she wanted to be prepared.

I think the DA members see it as either one of two things: the people like HRH, Ginny and Neville, Fred and George (and maybe some others, who have been on the receiving end of Voldemort), see it as a way to prepare themselves against Voldemort (or his DEs, I would think, as they (the members) would realise they can't prepare themselves that much for Voldemort.) The last group of members see the classes as a way of learning for their DADA's OWL, while enjoying themselves in the process. That's my opinion on it, anyway, I'm not saying it's right...

TomProffitt - Jul 31, 2004 6:33 am (#361 of 1227)

What I was trying to say in my earlier post was that the DA has achieved a life of its own. Whatever its original purpose (which varied quite a bit in the eyes of its members), the DA will continue, because its members will want and need for it to continue.

Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2004 7:00 am (#362 of 1227)

There seems to be a lot of thought that if the DA was formed as the extension, substitute, for a class, that is what it is and it can never be anything else.

Agreed, it started as a class. But it became something else. It is the center of a rebellion (revolution?) and it has become a combat organization.

FCBarca - Jul 31, 2004 7:19 am (#363 of 1227)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 8:19 am

Tom, my post wasn't in reply to anyone specific. I just saw that the posts were about the formation of the DA and it's members, and thought I'd give my opinion.

Steve, I wouldn't say it was a centre of rebellion anymore, as the reason why it was started was because of Umbridge, and she's gone now.

The One - Jul 31, 2004 8:32 am (#364 of 1227)

It is the center of a rebellion (revolution?) and it has become a combat organization.

Actually DA is nothing at the moment, as it was in effect disbanded when it was exposed. And as FCBarca said, the cause the DA rebelled against have gone. If we get a decent DADA teacher in the next book it is no reason it should reform.

I really hate the idea that Dumbledore should organize an army of children soldiers. Thus I do not expect Dumbledore to reform it, at least not as a combat unit.

TomProffitt - Jul 31, 2004 8:41 am (#365 of 1227)

Thus I do not expect Dumbledore to reform it, at least not as a combat unit. --- The One

The DA exists as a thing in the minds of the members. They may never have another meeting, but to them the DA lives on. We saw it on the train home when Ernie, Hannah, Susan, et al, came to Harry's aid. They may never refer to themselves as the DA again, but like the big three after the fight with the troll in PS/SS, they will always remain connected.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 31, 2004 9:30 am (#366 of 1227)

Considering how much trouble APWBD has had getting DADA teachers thus far, I suspect that he'll have trouble finding a decent teacher this year as well.

Solitaire - Jul 31, 2004 10:12 am (#367 of 1227)

Several things here ...

Steve ... I don't believe Harry will EVER get to be a normal boy, even if the Wizarding World is obliterated. First of all, at 17, he will be a young man, not a boy--the more so if he is triumphant over Voldemort. Notice at the end of OotP he is already referring to himself as "a marked man." I think that is telling ... he no longer sees himself as just another Hogwarts kid. And I do not think that is vanity or conceit. It's just that he knows what is coming now, and he knows it is literally the fight of (and for) his life and the lives of everyone he knows and loves.

Sadly, Harry has never had much of a boyhood, has he? He had a miserable childhood with the Dursleys, and he has had a big fat bull's eye on him since the day he entered the WW. I only hope he IS able to live as an adult in the WW and find a modicum of happiness. If ever anyone deserved it, he does. *sniff*

As for the DA, I think Tom has nailed it: The DA exists as a thing in the minds of the members. They may never have another meeting, but to them the DA lives on ... They may never refer to themselves as the DA again, but like the big three after the fight with the troll in PS/SS, they will always remain connected. I agree, and this will be particularly true of the six who fought in the battle.

For The One ... I do not think DD would ever deliberately organize a group of children into a combat unit. We have already seen that he has too much regard for the experiences of childhood and innocence to wish to mar that unnecessarily. HOWEVER ... DD is fully aware of what is coming and knows that kids are not going to be spared in this war just because they are kids at Hogwarts. I see him wanting them to be capable of defending themselves if necessary.

Look at Harry's parents. They were approximately 21 when they were murdered, yet they had defied V. three times. It seems probable that they were in the thick of things as young adults. It is possible that DD has learned a hard lesson about what can happen when the kids--especially kids like he has on his hands in the DA--are not fully informed of the dangers and what needs to be done in specific cases. Too much shielding can do as much or more harm than good. We saw the sorry result of it in OotP. I personally think DD will see the practicality and wisdom of keeping the DA functional--not as a Hogwarts Delta Force, but as a safe place for the kids to hone their skills.

Face it. In a war, everyone who is a target--and everyone who opposes V. and the DEs is a target--has to grow up much sooner than we would like. For proof of that, we need look no farther than Harry. He no sooner entered the WW than it became clear he was a marked man. It took him a while to realize the extent of that marking, but he has been watchful and pro-active since the first book (as have Ron and Hermione).

I must ask ... has anyone else speculated about what might have happened at the MoM had George and Fred gone along on that auspicious night? Someone (Tom, perhaps?) mentioned above that they probably anticipated a more active role in things. Given their penchant for silliness and flamboyant way of dealing with their enemies, how might their defensive/offensive techniques have stacked up in comparison to the other six? Just something to contemplate ...

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 10:27 am (#368 of 1227)

I must ask ... has anyone else speculated about what might have happened at the MoM had George and Fred gone along on that auspicious night? --Solitaire

Had Fred and George gone to DoM, the would've taken their firecrackers with them. Result? The entire DoM would've been filled with fireworks. Also, Fred and George knew how to apparate. One of them would've gone and alerted the Order sooner.

Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2004 11:14 am (#369 of 1227)

Solitaire,

Fred and George in the MOM. Well when they were being chased being able to put a swamp in front of your chasers would seem to be pretty helpful.

This is what I was alluding to when I said that I thought the the DA members at the MOM were more powerful that the average DA member. I'm not sure. Fred and George and a few other prefects would all appear to be pretty tough. I would certainly like to have Angelina and Seamus on my side in a fight.

TomProfitt, exactly right, the DA does mean something to its members now, beyond being a substitute for class. As the Express episode shows they cooperate, work as a team, and are effective at achieving their goals.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 31, 2004 11:16 am (#370 of 1227)

Actually, DA IS something at the moment. When Draco's ambush was thwarted, it was DA members that did it, not former members.

That means the narrator (aka Rowling) sees the DA as still a living thing.

Solitaire - Jul 31, 2004 11:20 am (#371 of 1227)

Good call about the apparating, Tornedo. But they still would not have been able to apparate until after they were off Hogwarts grounds; they probably would have had to wait until they'd reached the Ministry. I'm not sure how significantly that would have changed the arrival time of the Order fighters.

Also, I wonder how skilled they are at apparating, given that they really only have had one summer and a Christmas vacation of practice. Remember the stories Mr. Weasley told Harry about witches and wizards "splinching" themselves? And remember Harry's first experience with floo powder? How accurately can novices pinpoint WHERE they want to apparate? Just a thought ...

I like the idea of a fireworks show in the Ministry ... especially the ones that multiply by 10 each time someone tries to vanish them. heeeeeeeeee It makes me wish they HAD gone along ...

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:24 am (#372 of 1227)

That means the narrator (aka Rowling) sees the DA as still a living thing. -- Prefect Marcus

I agree with you Marcus.

Solitaire - Jul 31, 2004 11:28 am (#373 of 1227)

Steve, I'm just wondering what the (attempted?) retaliation for the Express hexing will be--because you know it's gonna happen. Isn't this the second time in two years that Draco & Co. have tried to ambush Harry on the way home and lived to regret it? They have to be plotting some MAJOR revenge ...

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2004 11:33 am (#374 of 1227)

Solitaire,

What an idea. I hadn't thought that far ahead. Could the next trip to Hogwarts be extra exciting?

I guess this is not the place to put forth my theory that Goyle is going to come over to the side of the good guys.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 31, 2004 12:26 pm (#375 of 1227)

Solitaire - I'm just wondering what the (attempted?) retaliation for the Express hexing will be--because you know it's gonna happen.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Draco is a Loser, with a capital-L. The fact that he actually managed to keep a thought of revenge for a single act in his head for a solid week astonishes me.

By next term, it will have just sunk into the pool of all the other times he has come out the worst in a confrontation with Harry that HE instigated.

Gemini Wolfie - Jul 31, 2004 11:28 pm (#376 of 1227)

Been reading some very interesting ideas. I am of the opinion that the DA will pretty much cease to exist. If it does exist it would be a study group and be named Defense Association or something like that. I think Harry learned a lot because of the DA but not exactly honed his skills. He really didn't have an opportunity to practice but he probably learned a lot of curses that he otherwise wouldn't have learned.

I just don't see many of the DA members battling. Even those that went to the MoM. Hermoine might have a head full of curses and countercurses and could definitely do them well but she just doesn't strike me as someone who would be interested in the auror aspects of magic and neither would Luna. I can really see Neville taking it seriously though and perhaps the fact that he was alongside Harry may suggest that the two may indeed fight alongside each other more often in the future.

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:31 pm (#377 of 1227)

In each book except the first one; Harry got into some trouble before going to Hogwarts. I believe in Book 6, the trouble is going to be Malfoy-induced. That would be his revange.

The One - Aug 1, 2004 5:28 am (#378 of 1227)

I think Harry learned a lot because of the DA but not exactly honed his skills. He really didn't have an opportunity to practice but he probably learned a lot of curses that he otherwise wouldn't have learned.

He also got to know a lot of students from other houses, he got expirence as a leader and teacher, and was respected as a leader by a large body of students. I believe that the fact that DA has existed will in different ways be very significant in the future books, but I do not expect the DA as such to have any further role to play.

But that is perhaps just me...

Solitaire - Aug 1, 2004 1:44 pm (#379 of 1227)

Interesting idea, Tornedo ... because if Malfoy tries anything at Privet Drive, Harry will certainly be blamed for it. He was blamed for Dobby's Hover Charm, and he was blamed for the Dementor business, which he didn't create. Hmmmmmmmm ...

Solitaire

total hatred - Aug 2, 2004 3:10 am (#380 of 1227)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 4:13 am

Harry was blamed in that incident because he was the only registered magic user in that area. So is the dementor incident.

Alianora - Aug 4, 2004 10:44 am (#381 of 1227)

When Harry is talking about Marietta betraying the DA to Cho in chapter 28, he says "Ron's dad works for the Ministry too!" Which made me start thinking. It was true that Mr Weasley did, but in reality he was in the Order and was against Fudge. Thus, Ron was following his parent's wishes, at least somewhat (even though Mrs. Weasley didn't want him in the club, they wouldn't have wanted him to tell.) So I started thinking of all the characters and which ones supported or didn't support Harry because of their parents vs. because of their own decision.

Seamus Finnigan- Didn't support Harry for most of the book because his mother believed the Daily Prophet.

Ernie Macmillian- Supported Harry because his family did.

Luna Lovegood-Supported Harry, her father did as well.

Dean Thomas-Wasn't pressured by his family because he's muggleborn(halfblood?), suported Harry.

Neville Longbottom- Supported Harry because his grandmother did.

Ron Weasley- Supported Harry because they were friends, his parents were in the order.

Cho Chang- Supported Harry even though her parents were pro-Umbridge.

Lavender Brown- At the beginning doesn't believe Harry, though she joins the DA: it's not clear what her parents think, but I think she may be muggle-born.

Marietta Edgecombe- Joined the DA only because Cho did-turned them in-Parents are very pro-Umbridge.

Percy Weasley- the only one who was against Harry despite his parents' views.

OK, I'm missing quite a few. Also, they may not be pro-Umbridge, just scared of her, but it's about the same in the list. So the only character whose parents were against Harry and Dumbledore but who supported Harry is- Cho Chang! She was the only one before the DA anyway- its hard to be sure which of the rest of the members believed him entirely. Cho could have hated him-it did nothing for her social status to like him or go out with him. I think she deserves credit for this.

I think it takes an extraordinary character to go against their parent's wishes (not to mention the ministry's), to do what they believe is right. It's also unfair to judge the ones who were simply following what their parents believed quite as harshly, as it is very difficult at that age to disagree. Which students do you believe deserve credit?

Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 11:07 am (#382 of 1227)

I know WHY he was blamed, th. My point was that this will probably not have changed. This means that if there is any magic performed in the area, regardless of who does it, HP will probably be blamed again.

If Draco is indeed the one who does it, we can be fairly certain he will maneuver it to be credited against Harry. Just my 2 knuts!

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2004 11:17 am (#383 of 1227)

Alianora,

That is a great list. There are several people I would like to mention that were not mentioned

Susan Bones like her aunt Amelia supported Harry. Whether she is anti Umbridge is not stated although, given the nature of the hearing and Amelia's dislike for Umbridge it is likely.

Hermione and her parents are anti Umbridge and support Harry

Fred and George Weasley supported Harry and are anti Umbridge. The same could be said of the other members of the quidditch teams

Best Regards, Nathan

penguin patronus - Aug 4, 2004 2:18 pm (#384 of 1227)

All I hope is that Harry continues to do the D.A., I would be very sad if he didn't. Wink

I always liked their little secret organization. I guess now that Umbridge isn't there, they could more do it out in the open, but it would still be somewhat privet. They would probably have the same members, but maybe without Marietta. Although, maybe they will. Perhaps she'll come to her senses.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 4, 2004 6:18 pm (#385 of 1227)

Well we know that there are quite a lot of societies and clubs at Hogwarts. There's a Charms club, so they can definitely keep this study group going. Again, it would probably be better if it was called Defense Association instead.

Alianora, that's a nice list. I want to add that Seamus may not have believed in Harry but he never told on them, so there's definitely a difference between Marietta and all the others although, how much pressure Marietta received from back home is not known so perhaps she was really forced besides just personally feeling uncomfortable about the club (and not exactly wrong there either). Nathan, are you sure Hermione's parents are anti-Umbridge? Since they are muggles as well I would think they could care less. Whatever their daughter say they would assume to be right.

Lets add the Patil's to the list as well Very Happy

Alianora - Aug 4, 2004 7:35 pm (#386 of 1227)

I wasn't really sure where the Patils fit in, actually. Hermione only says that Lavender didn't believe Harry, which indicates that Parvati did. We can't be sure though, even though she was in the DA, so was Lavender. And we don't know if Padma thought the same as her sister.

Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 8:13 pm (#387 of 1227)

As far as Marietta goes, I've been thinking about that jinx. I believe Hermione probably expected the "sneak" to be Zacharias Smith. I'll wager Marietta was a bit of a surprise.

I do hope Hermione removes the jinx from Marietta over the summer, if only because I do not like the nasty parallel it draws between her and Umbridge (the Quill which etches the lines into the skin).

In addition, it would show Hermione as able to do something neither Poppy Pomfrey nor Umbridge was able to do. Of course, Umbridge wasn't able to remove Fred & George's swamp, either, so I'm wondering exactly what kind of abilities she has.

Most importantly, I think the jinx has served its purpose. I seriously doubt whether anyone would wantonly enter into a bargain with Hermione ever again. Also, I think mercy is important ... and I'd like to see Hermione extend a bit to Marietta.

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:14 pm (#388 of 1227)

Alianora; I think you should mention the Cho part on the Cho thread also. the members discussing Cho there don't seem to like her much and this might make them respect her a bit.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 6, 2004 8:57 pm (#389 of 1227)

Alianora, that's a good point about Lavender not believing Harry. She never mentioned Parvati. By the way, was there any mention of which girls room with which? Does Hermione room with Parvati and Lavender?

Solitaire, I doubt Hermione's jinx would have lasted that long. Flitwick was able to vanish the swamp in an instant. I highly doubt none of the teachers know how to remove the jinx especially given so long of a time, not to mention St. Mungo's. There's no way the girl is going to be sent home with the jinx still on her face.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 9:19 pm (#390 of 1227)

But Gemini ... she was still wearing the balaclava on the train.

Leila 2X4B - Aug 6, 2004 10:20 pm (#391 of 1227)

In the dictionary a balaclava is defined as "a knitted cap that covers the head, neck, and upper shoulders. Sneak was written across her cheeks and nose. So a balaclava wouldn't necessarily cover it up. So she could be spot free.

Leila

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 11:15 pm (#392 of 1227)

Although some balaclavas do reveal part of the face, the ones I've seen around here are knit and cover the entire face except for the eyes. They are frequently worn in extremely cold weather by skiers, snow patrol, and sometimes even farmers. (Bank or convenience store robbers also wear them to cover the face whle committing a crime.) Some of them are knit in such a way that the part that covers the face can be pulled back. But why would anyone who didn't need her face covered even wear one in hot weather?

The other kind of balaclava I've seen locally is what many Muslim women wear to cover their faces in public. Since it hasn't been mentioned before that Marietta wears one for this purpose, it really makes more sense that she wants to hide her face.

Frankly, I hope Hermione has removed the jinx by the time Marietta gets off the train. She needs to show a bit of mercy at this time ... but I'm still skeptical.

If I'm wrong and she's just wearing it to make a fashion statement, I'll treat you to a butterbeer and a stoat sandwich! Yum! ;-)

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Aug 7, 2004 6:45 am (#393 of 1227)

Solitaire,

Hermione show mercy? Ask Rita. Maybe a little but a very conditional mercy.

What's the most dangerous thing a person can do in the Potter universe? Call Hermione a Silly Little Girl.

Hollywand - Aug 7, 2004 8:06 am (#394 of 1227)

Steve, it's chilling that you would pick the phrase "Silly Girl" as that is how Voldemort addresses Lilly just before he kills her to strike the baby Harry....

Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 1:54 pm (#395 of 1227)

Come to think of it, he says that about Ginny Weasley down in the Chamber, too. He calls her a stupid little girl spilling her silly troubles into his diary. Interesting ...

And if you look at the rest of the things he says about her, it's her LOVE that he scorns and scoffs at ... once again.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 8, 2004 3:23 am (#396 of 1227)

Oops. I missed that part about Marietta with the balaclava. Could there simply be remnants of the jinx? I really can't see her still having the jinx at full potency for a whole summer. Or maybe she's just sensitive.

Snape isn't shy about calling Hermione stupid either. I hope he gets it Razz

Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 8:51 am (#397 of 1227)

Gemini, I suppose she COULD have been wearing the balaclava out of embarrassment, just to hide her face in general ... but it seems unlikely.

As I've said in other posts, I do hope Hermione has removed that jinx by the time Marietta gets off the train. It's one thing for Marietta to appear that way at Hogwarts, as a "reminder" to others. It could be quite another for Hermione if Marietta is seen that way at home by her family.

Hermione was NOT being vindictive when she jinxed the parchment, IMO. What the DA were doing was serious, and secrecy was necessary. Out in the world, such a betrayal could cost lives, and Marietta needed that lesson. But Hermione does need to learn mercy, as well. At this age and with the coming war, teaching a lesson is one thing; holding a grudge--and making an enemy--is another.

I agree about Snape.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Aug 8, 2004 11:58 am (#398 of 1227)

"Out in the world, such a betrayal could cost lives, and Marietta needed that lesson."

The whole group had to learn that lesson. Marietta, I would guess, is no longer a member of the DA. MMMM, I could be wrong. Anyway, in a war group cohesion must be inforced. Everybody now knows that they are in. Not that I can think of any fence sitters. May Cho, but personal reasons.

DJ Evans - Aug 8, 2004 6:50 pm (#399 of 1227)

Wonder if Hermione's jinx on the parchment is just a "one" time deal or if Marietta should tell someone else at another point in time the spots come back? Was that ever brought up in the book? I can't remember. If it's not, then that might be why she still has the spots? They could start to clear up and someone asks her what happen that day and "wham" the spots come back!!

Later, Deb

Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 7:10 pm (#400 of 1227)

Interesting idea, Deb. It would be interesting to know the exact jinx she used, wouldn't it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:02 am

TomProffitt - Aug 8, 2004 8:38 pm (#401 of 1227)

I've always assumed Hermione the kind to think it was obvious that she would have put a jinx on the list. After all, Zach Smith and Ernie Mac were smart enough to figure it out.

She was probably surprised someone would be dumb enough to risk her jinx. And equally surprised that Marietta (she is a Ravenclaw after all) hasn't figured out how to unjinx herself on her own.

Hermione shows a lot of sympathy for the innocent, but very little for the guilty. I imagine her to think that if Marietta's not smart enough to lift the jinx alone, then Hermione isn't going to do it for her.

Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 8:51 pm (#402 of 1227)

Tom, I've always thought that Hermione suspected Zach would be the one to rat them out, if anyone did. I do hope Hermione exercises a bit of mercy, as I've said before.

TomProffitt - Aug 8, 2004 8:55 pm (#403 of 1227)

I do too, but I'm not sure it's in her character to let a fink off that easily.

Ask Rita

Paulus Maximus - Aug 8, 2004 9:05 pm (#404 of 1227)

So Hermy might keep the jinx on her for a year, if it really lasts that long.

Of course, we still don't know whether she's let Rita off the hook, even though she said she would.

Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 12:37 am (#405 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 1:38 am

Wonder if Hermione's jinx on the parchment is just a "one" time deal... -DJ Evans

Maybe that's why she's still spotty.

"Hey, Marietta, why do you have those spots on your face?"

"It's a jinx. I'm not allowed to tell anyone about the DA." *spots grow more prominent*

"Hey, Marietta, your spots look more prominent than yesterday. What's up?"

"I told Dennis Creevy that I was jinxed for telling people about the DA." *spots grow more prominent*

Now THAT would teach her to keep her mouth shut. And it's low-maintenance mercy. Once she's learned not to fink on people, the spots go away on their own. Hermione doesn't have to do anything more.

taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 2:29 am (#406 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 3:36 am

Lets look at the DA properly, not through rosy spectacles of DA is good, others are Bad

The DA is nothing short of a terrorist organisation!

As most magical people will remember that excellent speech Minister Fudge made, reported in the daily prophet “Either you are with us or against us”

The Ministry of magic is the lawful and rightly elected government of the magical people. Anyone who says different is unMagical

Neither the OOtP or the DA can be described as supporters of this true and proper government, some even believe that they wish to overthrow (by illegal methods?) the lawful administration

At first I would have describe both these groups ( OOtP & DA) as just subversive, spreading around information which the ministry felt was either lies, or information which is not for the public good, otherwise called official information.

While we know of no terrorist actions of the OOtP (except maybe Dumbledore attracting the minister and his party when they tried to lawfully arrest him, while another member attracted an innocent student with a memory charm). The DA’s members have been disruptive, and have attacked innocent members of the public. At their meeting, they practice fighting, and nothing else

The following actions by members of the DA, with the knowledge and sanction of it’s leader Harry Potter

1. Attacked innocent students on the school train. This was done twice, once was before the DA was formalised as an organisation. Three students give DA members a bit of lip, threaten them. So DA members attack them with such force as to incapacitate and disfigure them

2. set off fireworks during class time. This could be dangerous and downright irresponsible

3. created a swamp on the 3rd floor. Having an unfenced pond in a public thoroughfare is an accident waiting to happen

4. a student gives them lip at a quiddich match so the beat him up. This is nothing short of bulling 2 on 1, many sporting codes would ban players for at least a year, if not life

5. Hermione Granger deliberately leads a esteemed member of the ministry, and head of the school into the forest and acts in a way she knows could lead to the murder of the Head of school

6. destroying valuable experiments, and property of the ministry of magic (namely brains etc in the ministry of mysteries)

7. attract students lawfully giving out punishments, seriously injuring them

8. attack and disfigure students who act against them who once used to belong to the DA(so called traitors)

9. they communicate with a known murder

the ministry needs to have an (unplotable) island off the British coast which is not subject to English or Scottish law. Where they can keep without trial and torture its prisoners (using dementors is torture, it would be condemned by the UN, any country performing such acts would be a pariah of the international community). This island is used to protect the British Isles from murders and terrorist

if the DA wants to commit acts against the administration, maybe they should be tortured on this island.

History is written by the winners.

It is possible that the DA could be relabelled from a terrorist or gorilla group, to eventually be freedom fighters (gorilla fighters of the winners)

It should be noted that the DA members seem to use their wands and fist first, when they are threatened by words or lawful punishment

It was right that members were being heavily restrained after they were caught attacking the Headmistress’s office, as we know they are dangerous, and should be treated as such

Just because you disagree with the government, it is no reason to publish information that had been banned, act against the government, set up banned subversive organisations that acts against the public good,. As well as spreading terror amongst the administration and making the school unsafe.

drippan - Aug 9, 2004 2:58 am (#407 of 1227)

Don't have alot of time or I could have some fun!

taniwha, "Just because you disagree with the government, it is no reason to publish information that had been banned, act against the government, set up banned subversive organisations that acts against the public good"

So, are you saying the Jewish community should have gone along with Hitler's government and policies? Not said a word and just marched right onto the trains?

DripPan

taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 3:19 am (#408 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 4:46 am

I would perfer not to duscuss pacific muggle history or current affairs, But I will try to answer your question without being too policical

drippan you have mentioned one of the highly emotive issues I would try to aviod mentioning directly

It would be right for a persecuted group (like the Jews and the Gypsies put to death in Nazi Germany) to fight back.

ther are other more recent acts of genocide could also be mentioned

But, if they fight back, (maybe using guerrilla tactics) maiming and killing a few people, fighting without declaring war(country vs country), acting against the lawful recognised government.

would they not be by current definitions, be terrorists?

if you think back you can think of many other illegel actions that members of the DA have performed before the DA was formallised

eg the very illegal action of turning back time, and changing time. think what harm they could have done

the DA does what it thinks is right, but does act in an illegal manner. even if the law is wrong

MrsGump - Aug 9, 2004 4:33 am (#409 of 1227)

"At first I would have describe both these groups ( OOtP & DA) as just subversive, spreading around information which the ministry felt was either lies, or information which is not for the public good, otherwise called official information."

I'm not sure if it's just because I'm American, but I wouldn't call a group "subversive" for spreading information, true or not.

I can walk around and complain and disagree with the government and the "official information" all I want. People on talk radio make a heck of a lot of money doing just that. Any special interest group would be classified as the same.

And I'm not so sure that DD's arrest was "legal" either. Didn't they show up to stop a group of students from having an un-authorized study group? They may have practiced spells, but they should have been doing that in class and would have to do them for O.W.L.'s, so the defensive spells were not illegal. Their teacher just wouldn't let them do it in class. But don't you think the MoM and a bunch of aurors was a bit much to break up a group of students from meeting to practice their DADA?

Pretty much everything else is typical of student behavior at the wizarding school since day one. For example, the fireworks. That could've happened any year (think of Filch and his list of banned objects) and the teachers would've cleaned it up in a second.

Hermione leading Umbridge to the centaurs was bad, but probably justifiable as self-defense since she was getting ready to use Unforgiveables on students.

FCBarca - Aug 9, 2004 4:35 am (#410 of 1227)

The thing is, Taniwha, is that the Ministry is risking the life of innocent wizards and witches by pretending to be blind. The higher ranking Ministry officials knew that Voldemort was back, but as Sirius said, "...accepting that Voldemort is back would mean trouble like the Ministry hasn't had to cope with for nearly fourteen years." So I'm for the Order defying the Ministry, because the Order are trying to save lives. A lot of my thoughts on the Order and the DA have changed, as several months ago I was critical of both. But in recent re-reads, and thinking of what I would do if I was in that world, I know for a fact I'd defy the Ministry and try and stop Voldemort.

The DA is slightly different. I think they would be foolish to join the fight directly, but I too would learn to defend myself, and when I left school, join the fight.

ShelterGirl - Aug 9, 2004 5:42 am (#411 of 1227)

Taniwha- I try not to criticize on this forum, but I think that in this day and age the word "terrorist" should be considered long and hard, and then re-considered, before ascribing it to the actions of what is essentially a defensive militia.

The actions of Fred and George in their 7th year should not even be considered as DA sanctioned, for the most part. They had pretty much planned to do all of those things before they were needed as diversions anyway. It's just in their nature to prank, and I agree that had the teachers not found them to be enjoyable someone would have put an end to them very quickly.

The words of Charles Dickens have been used on this forum quite frequently lately. "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few..." In forming the DA and the Order, these people aren't only protecting their own hides. They are also attempting to protect those who do not agree with them, or believe them as well. Dumbledore has respect for all life, and isn't going to nitpick about alliances. The real threat is Voldemort, who is NOT going to even consider the things that Dumbledore takes for granted.

And yes, maybe I feel this way because I am an American, but I fully agree that sometimes one needs to act outside the law, or the Decrees, in order to protect the safety and well-being of all, even to the inclusion of those one doesn't like or share agreement.

So please, Taniwha, think hard before you stir the cauldron in such a way. There are people from many, many cultures and countries here. They deserve a pleasant place to distract themselves.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2004 7:49 am (#412 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 9:02 am

The argument and counter argument about whether or not the DA and the Order of the Phoenix are subversive organizations brings to the forefront an interesting question.

As for myself I tend to equate organizations like Dumbledore's Army and the Order of the Phoenix as being similar to the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and the Flying Tigers. All of these organizations were composed of people whose nations on the whole were neutral in the early stages of a war or conflict. But these people entered into the war of there own accord as members of volunteer organzations because, they believe or believed as the case may be that they are or were doing something in service to a cause worth fighting for.

While the wisdom of actions may be doubted. I am reminded of this quotation of Robert Kennedy which makes me hopeful that the actions of Dumbledore's Army and the Order of the Phoenix have not been in vain.

In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.

It is my hope that the Wizarding World gains wisdom from its actions. I also hope that a spirit of moderation will prevail in all things and situations.

Peace, Nathan

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 8:33 am (#413 of 1227)

Wow, Nathan, a very articulate and moving post. A sidenote from a rather admittedly clueless American looking into this Harry Potter window on British culture: There's a whole tradition of "schoolboys acting out" that's sort of expected and tolerated within British culture. They are also extremely ironic about governmental intstitutions. Rowling naming the phoenix after Guy Fawkes comes to mind as an example.

mike miller - Aug 9, 2004 8:35 am (#414 of 1227)

Taniwha - I would not call either the DA or the Order "terrorist" organizations. I think the strongest word I would use is subversive, dispite it's negative connotations.

As I see it, a "terrorist" uses random acts of violence against the "innocent" to instill fear. The DA and the Order are more reactive to the plans and actions of those they oppose.

These types of actions are occasionaly necessary when the "legitimate government" abdicates it's responsiblity or misuses it's power.

taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 2:23 pm (#415 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 3:25 pm

Petunia Dursley said she saw Lily for what she really was, Severus Snape also sees Harry Potter and his cronies as people who has a disregard for the rules, if they are not in there interest. The ends justify the means?

Imagine your kids went to a school and you heard reports of bulling. Three teenagers being beaten to a pulp

This was the second time this had happened to the same three students

One person was involved on both occasions. On both occasions they were heavily out numbered, the second time involved school prefects. All were members of a group called an army, who met in secret and practiced fighting. Earlier on another member had disfigured another student, other incidents involve leaving school without permission getting involved in a fight and damaging valuable government property. The words self styled paramilitary group may have also have been used

What is your reaction?

Pat them on the back, and say kids will be kids

Write of the board of governors stating your opinion

Disband the DA

Suspend the students involved

Expel students

Charge the teenage students with assault

I think most people at the very least would suspend students, and disband the DA.

PS ShelterGirl - I agree the over emotive words I used in a previous post are over used.

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 2:32 pm (#416 of 1227)

Taniwha, however you may choose to look at it, Draco and his two cronies were attempting to ambush Harry both times on the train. Unfortunately for them, Harry's friends saw what they were up to and rushed to his defense.

They would have done the same and worse to Harry, if they'd hadn't been beaten to the ... wand. This last time, they tried to get him alone ... 3 on one when he was not expecting it. They got what was coming to them. Ditto the last time.

Every time Draco & Co. have been hit, it is in self-defense. They always start it.

Solitaire

ex-FAHgeek - Aug 9, 2004 2:36 pm (#417 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 3:39 pm

---quote--- What is your reaction? ---end quote---

Considering the number of magical "accidents" that happen at Hogwarts throughout the year without much complaint (ranging from Seamus' feather blowing up to Hermione's teeth to basilisk petrifications to the slug trio to the DADA teacher turning Draco into a ferret to detentions in the Forbidden Forest), I'd say that having unfortunate magical occurrences generally don't bat more than a few eyelashes and a couple of detentions as long as everyone lives.

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 2:53 pm (#418 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 3:54 pm

Exactly, ex-FAHgeek. I mean ... Cedric Diggory DIED, for Pete's sake! Can you imagine the fallout if that had happened in a US public school? His parents were devastated, I'm sure, but they seemed to accept that Voldemort did it and it couldn't have been prevented under the circumstances.

So far, the only parents we've seen come to school are the Weasleys (when Ginny was taken by Riddle) and the Montagues (when that kid was trapped in the toilet).

If your kid is going to train as a witch or wizard, I suppose you get used to bizarre things happening ... like Neville putting his ears on a cactus ... or Hermione turning into a cat ... or Pansy sprouting antlers ...

If you happen to be the parent of the most obnoxious bully in a school whose most famous kid doesn't pick fights but certainly won't shy away from them ... you have to expect that on occasion, your brat is going to get what he deserves from the other kids. If he doesn't like it, tell him to stop threatening people.

Solitaire

drippan - Aug 9, 2004 3:13 pm (#419 of 1227)

taniwha, "What is your reaction?"

I wonder how many parents of DA members are happy now that they know LV is back and their kids actually learned DADA? I know I would sleep safer knowing my kid knows it!

Every incident you mentioned was a "reaction" to another situation that DA did not start.

What about the government role? Is it right to dictate to the newspaper what is and is not printable? Is it right to put a kid on trial for a minor offense down in the dungeon vice having just a hearing so you can get the kid expelled? Is it right to bad mouth a senior member of the court (DD) and demote him/take away his awards because you disagree with what he says? Is it right to band students forever from playing Quidditch for fighting in a Quidditch match even though this is their first offense and Quidditch is a very physical sport as it is? Is it right to stop or regulate clubs because they go against what the government says?

Bottom line: Is it right for the government do what they did in the OotP?

If you agree, then your avatar agrees with you and we should all go straight to the gallos!

I think of DA and OotP as rebelling against the current government. They are not trying to take over Hogwarts or the government. They have the interest of the WW at hand. They are not in it for the "glory" like Fudge or Umbridge is.

DripPan

MrsGump - Aug 9, 2004 3:20 pm (#420 of 1227)

I also think "beaten to a pulp" is a bad example/ anology. They weren't beaten, they were jinxed. It seems every jinx has a counter-jinx, so they can easily be put back to rights.

Plus, if we look at Snape's worst memory, the jinx eventually started to wear off, without James removing it. So, I'd say that by the time the train pulled into the station, the slugs were back to two-legged slugs and too embarassed that their sneak, 3 vs 1, attack didn't work to go complaining to anyone.

taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 3:25 pm (#421 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 4:28 pm

Solitaire -Draco Malfoy is all mouth, he likes winding people up or provoking a fight, but how often does he attack first

forgetting controlled class room situations, Harry and his gang have physically attacked Malfoy and co by wand or fist far more times than than malfoy attack Potter and gang

as I started to sa earlier Petunia Dursley said she saw Lily for what she really was, Severus Snape also sees Harry Potter and his gang who has a disregard for the rules, if they do not agree with them

We should try and avoid looking at Harry Potter and the DA as angels. although they may not be taniwhas,

We have to remember the winners write the history , there is always another Interpretation to events.

do the ends always justify the means?

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 3:49 pm (#422 of 1227)

Taniwha, I think you need to reread your books ... or else you need to look at what it means to defend oneself. In the WW, if your opponent goes for his wand--especially when it is an opponent who makes no secret of hating your guts--it probably means he is going to attack. Waiting until he has done it just to make sure could cost a wizard his life.

The corollary in our world would be waiting for the guy pointing the gun at your head or heart to shoot before deciding whether or not he wants to harm you. Sadly, by the time you realize he does, you've waited too long and you're either wounded or dead!

Harry has always pulled his wand in defense--never attack. He can't help it if he is faster than Draco. He has to be ... he has walked around for the past 5 years with a bull'seye on his back. The kids who pulled their wands and jinxed Draco & Co. saw what they were about to do to Harry and did it first. Again, they got what they deserved for being bullying cowards.

I'm not quite sure what you are are about with your posts.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2004 3:50 pm (#423 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 4:55 pm

Taniwha, you have an excellent point neither Harry or Draco is an angel and to automatically assume so would be fallacious indeed.

However, the comparison between Snape and the D.A. versus the relationship between Lily and Petunia cannot stand.

as I started to sa ealier Petunia Dursley said she saw Lily for what she really was, Severus Snape also sees Harry Potter and his gang who has a disregard for the rules, if they do not agree with them

This analogy I find illogical for the following two reasons. First, because there exists insufficient evidence for such a parallel. Second, what evidence exists concerning the character of Lily Evans is contradictory in nature.

To address your commentary on the nature of history. From my experience I have found that history is not static in nature. History is quite fluid, while, I agree that history is generally written by the victors. History is oft subject to generational revision when a succeeding generation assumes the mantle of leadership.

drippan - Aug 9, 2004 3:56 pm (#424 of 1227)

taniwha, I still like to know your answer to my question.

Did the government act properly in the OotP? Did they represent the people who elected them in a proper manner?

DripPan

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 4:16 pm (#425 of 1227)

LOL Solitaire! "If you happen to be the parent of the most obnoxious bully in a school whose most famous kid doesn't pick fights but certainly won't shy away from them ... you have to expect that on occasion, your brat is going to get what he deserves from the other kids. If he doesn't like it, tell him to stop threatening people."

Care to tell that to the Dursley's?

As far as the rest of this topic concerning the DA and taniwha's views on this topic...I think I'll abstain for the time being.

Think I'll stop and grab a six-pack on the way to St Mungo's...

Care to join me anyone?

drippan - Aug 9, 2004 4:25 pm (#426 of 1227)

"Think I'll stop and grab a six-pack on the way to St Mungo's... "

They make good jello.....

DripPan

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 4:32 pm (#427 of 1227)

For the record, Twinkling, I think Draco is a magical version of Dudley. He is a nasty little bully and far from a fair fighter--but I've said that before in other posts and other places. Dudley, unlike Draco, never gets his just desserts. It will be interesting to watch and see if the Dementor incident has any lasting--and hopefully positive--effects upon him.

I think this topic has moved in a direction that has the potential to cause some trouble. I think I'll abstain from posting until it turns in a different direction.

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 4:39 pm (#428 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 5:40 pm

St Mungo's makes good jello...or butterbeer, or both?

Methought that was a good decision too Solitiare! We may be having jello!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 4:55 pm (#429 of 1227)

Here we are back at jello again..."unlike Draco, never gets his just desserts", he gets his deserts, but not his "just" ones.

Makes me wonder, if some members of the DA were to pop in on Harry, saw some of the interaction between Harry and Dudders, would they jinx him, kinda like G&F with the ton-tounge toffee's?

I think I just answered my own question...toddles off to St Mungo's once again.

taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 5:05 pm (#430 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 6:11 pm

drippan - I would suspend students, and disband the DA. I would also be concerned that prefects were involved

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 5:08 pm (#431 of 1227)

Twinkling ... you remind me of my dad. He LOOOOOOOOOVES jello!

Leila 2X4B - Aug 9, 2004 5:10 pm (#432 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 6:10 pm

Reading the tone that this thread has taken, I feel it is getting dark. My spidey sense is telling me that someone doesn't like Harry. Not wild about Harry at all. I think that the DA functions the same way any resistance group operates, to oppose the unjust. I think that Draco's incompetence doesn't remove his culpability. He intended to jinx Harry. That matters. Harry reacted. Oh well. Natural Consequences.

ShelterGirl - Aug 9, 2004 5:26 pm (#433 of 1227)

---*ahem*

So how 'bout that Room of Requirement...?

---*looks around warily, goes to get jello*

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 5:32 pm (#434 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 6:34 pm

Room of Requirement...? I'm looking for the room with chamber pots!

Methinks if anyone would qualify as a "terrorist organization", even in this day and age, the Death Eaters would fill that role admirably.

And that is all I have to say about that...

Jello anyone?

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 5:36 pm (#435 of 1227)

Don't get your wand up anyone's nose, if you take my meaning.... :-)

I'm in for a stoat pizza....

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 5:39 pm (#436 of 1227)

And get troll boggies, or something similar? I'd perfer the stoat pizza.

Hid under sheet over moniter so ferrets didn't see I said that!

ShelterGirl - Aug 9, 2004 5:40 pm (#437 of 1227)

Wingardium Leviosa!

Did it work???

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 5:46 pm (#438 of 1227)

By the time you said it, they fell asleep again, LOL!

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 5:47 pm (#439 of 1227)

I fear Marietta will end up getting Dumbledore's Army detention with Delores, and then where would Albus be?

Denise P. - Aug 9, 2004 5:55 pm (#440 of 1227)

If this thread continues to stray off into silliness, it runs the risk of being closed. Please keep that in mind.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 5:57 pm (#441 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:01 pm

Ok, enough fun, back on topic. I see the DA continuing, like a Jr version of Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts. (I know rather simplistic, but best I could come up with on short notice.)

The "legality" of the group does not concern me. I am a Gryffindor, with a sight perchance of breaking the rules. I do what I consider right, same as the DA members. Good vs evil is right, defending one's self and family, loved ones , friends is right.

Thousands of laws have been written that were wrong...some mistakes amended, some not.

Hmm, maybe I have some magic in me after all...my heart and head rule the magical part of me. And as we all know...wizards are a little short in the "logic" department. :-)

Ever notice there has not been mentioned a Ministry of Logic?

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 6:01 pm (#442 of 1227)

Wouldn't it be great to make the DA members part of the Order of the Phoenix, and assign them adult mentors? Especially with the war approaching....

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 6:03 pm (#443 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:04 pm

Sounds like a plan to me. After all, there comes a time, esp. in a teens life, they CAN'T be excluded.

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 6:07 pm (#444 of 1227)

Good point, Twinkles. Dumbledore ends on that realization in the Order of the Phoenix...

TomProffitt - Aug 9, 2004 6:22 pm (#445 of 1227)

"Wouldn't it be great to make the DA members part of the Order of the Phoenix, and assign them adult mentors? Especially with the war approaching.... " --- Hollywand

This has been done both de facto and de jure.

Hollwand's phrase is an excellent discription of the role of Harry and his relationships with Albus, Remus, and Sirius.

I think after the battle at the DoM it is inevitable that the Order will realize they have taught their children too well. They have chosen the Order's battle for the same reasons as its adult members. Tonks, Kingsley, and Mundungus (and many others) have become role models and mentors for the DA.

The smart play for the Order is to recognize this inevitable truth, and guide the DA towards useful goals rather than let its members, through exuberant well-meaning ignorance and naivete, tickle sleeping dragons.

Muggle Doctor - Aug 9, 2004 6:25 pm (#446 of 1227)

Ministry of Logic? Isn't the point in PS/SS that the potions problem (defending the Stone) is a logic problem... and that a Muggle could solve it while the brightest wizard could spend ages wondering what the answer was? Since it was set by Snape... can you imagine Snape in charge of a Ministry department? LOL

As for Taniwha... Taniwha's opinions are such that I wonder if he/she isn't the secret love-child of Dolores Umbridge and Lucius Malfoy :-p

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2004 6:25 pm (#447 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:33 pm

The idea of membership in the Order of the Phoenix being extended to members of Dumbledore's Army is an interesting one. I think if such memberships will be extended on a case by case basis.

The members of the D.A. to whom some form of membership will be extended.

Fred and George Weasley because, for all intents and purposes they are overage wizards. Although I think they will be required to take an equivalency test before full membership is granted

I think Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, Ron Weasley, Neville Longbottom, Ginny Weasley, and Luna Lovegood will be extended memberships because of their actions at the Department of Mysteries.

Susan Bones, I think will be extended an invitation because of not only her intelligence and skill but also because her connection with Amelia could prove to be an invaluable asset.

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 6:31 pm (#448 of 1227)

Hollywand: Wouldn't it be great to make the DA members part of the Order of the Phoenix, and assign them adult mentors? Especially with the war approaching...

Hollywand, I wrote something about this a while back. I'm not sure if it was here on the forum or on a teacher's board where I tried to get a Potter thread going.

I do see the DA being a lot like the Gryffindors of the Potters' year. In the Lexicon info about Lily, it sounds as though she and the Marauders joined the Order right out of Hogwarts. In the list of confirmed facts on Mugglenet, it says the following: The wizarding world is really at war in the sixth book. Given this state of affairs, I can see the more able DA members who wish to work for the Order being taken in, even though they are young.

Remember, these kids--at least the six who fought at the Ministry--are not the kind to sit idly by and do nothing. It would be far better to have them training properly with experienced Aurors and other Order members than running off trying to do things on their own--as we already know they are quite capable of doing. While I am not suggesting they are ready for battle, I do think they need to be taken into consideration and kept informed ... if only to prevent more incidents like the last one. I hope Dumbledore is reading this, Hollywand. Great idea!

Solitaire

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 6:35 pm (#449 of 1227)

Nathan, I can also (maybe) see those who came to Harry's defense on the train being considered. That shows they are alert and willing to step into the fray to cover a fellow member.

Solitaire

Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 6:37 pm (#450 of 1227)

Wow, great contributions, all around!! Thanks! To your point Solitaire, I have always felt that Book Six will hit the ground running. I don't think Voldy will give quarter, and I think he will begin to really pursue Harry and anyone else who opposes him, and we will also learn Voldy's previous Reign of Terror. My instinct is that LV's headed straight for Privet Drive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:06 am

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 6:46 pm (#451 of 1227)

Yes ... and this could be the reason it's "his shortest stay ever"!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 6:46 pm (#452 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor..."Ministry of Logic?" :-) An oxymoron if I ever heard one!

I wonder if he/she isn't the secret love-child of Dolores Umbridge and Lucius Malfoy :-p

I wonder if this ship ought to be explored? ROFLMAO!

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2004 6:48 pm (#453 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 8:09 pm

To extend the mentoring hypothesis a step further and tie both Dumbledore's Army and the Order of the Phoenix together.

I have long thought the Order of the Phoenix may have divisions in the organization. For example within the Order of the phoenix there may be a central executive committee, a core group of fighters and a core group of healers etc.

To that end if the members of Dumbledore Army wish to join and are assigned mentors. How would the members be assigned and what mentors would they be assigned?

Solitaire, which members of the DA were involved in the incident on the train I cannot recall.

Addendum The question I asked about the other D.A. members nvolved in the incident on the train has been answered. It is interesting to note that both Hufflepuff Prefects in Harry's year were present as was one of the Ravenclaw Prefects was as well. The only absent prefect not from Slytherin was Padma Patil.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 6:52 pm (#454 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:52 pm

Very astute thought Nathan!

Lord, never thought I'd say that, my ex's name was Nathan!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 6:56 pm (#455 of 1227)

I'm not Sol, but "The attack might have succeeded had it not been for the fact that they unwittingly chose to stage the attack right outside a compartment full of DA members, who saw what was happening through the glass and rose as one to rush to Harry's aid. By the time Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot had finished using a wide variety of the hexes and jinxes Harry had taught them,"

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 6:58 pm (#456 of 1227)

Now, Twinkling ... why do your comments, together with the "Ministry of Logic," the word oxyMORON, and Fudge, send my brain zooming to Byron's The Vision of Judgment and Pope's The Dunciad?

Calling all English majors to help me resolve this bizarre link!

Solitaire

total hatred - Aug 9, 2004 7:46 pm (#457 of 1227)

Draco is far too arrogant to notice that he not that powerful to what he think is. He might have advantage in terms of attacking spells but he forgot to factor out that his opponent is skilled in defensive spells and he has lots of trusted allies. Plus he is extremely pissed off.

Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 9:18 pm (#458 of 1227)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 10:18 pm

Oh, I love the idea of the DA becoming an officially sanctioned route to the OoP. Kind of like I understand the ROTC to be in America.

I think that Lupin is the front runner to be the DA mentor. Harry even thought of him before Ron and Hermione suggested that he teach his fellow students. He already knows the students, and they have a relationship with him and for the most part respect him. Also, his usefulness in the Order, especially on the recruitment end is limited because of his lycanthropy, so this would be something that he is specially suited to do. Thoughts?

Solitaire: I'm ashamed to admit that though I'm an English major, I haven't read the Dunciad or The Vision of Judgement. Though I've only been in that major for a year. Give me time...

Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 10:53 pm (#459 of 1227)

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Didn't Ozymandias refer to Ramses II? He seemed to me to be possessed of a hubris similar to Voldemort, don't you think? Like all tyrants, Voldemort believes he will never die ... he and his power will live on forever. Let's hope we soon see him vanquished--together with his followers--a decaying and colossal wreck.

Solitaire

(I do like your name ... very classic!)

taniwha - Aug 10, 2004 3:15 am (#460 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 4:25 am

to go back a few hours only to answer a question I missed

DripPan you asked

Did the government act properly in the OotP? Did they represent the people who elected them in a proper manner?

I believe many people at the time believed they did, they made (some would believe) great strides in modifying education. discourage fighting and other violence from schools, if it is not taught then students are less likely to practise fighting. Also geting rid of the bad teachers, many would have supported the administration.

The only major newspaper supported them, there was no credible news organisation giving a different view point. Why should they not believe their government was doing a good job

what is a proper manner?

if the public agrees with them, is that proper?

a few people were marginalised and acted how they saw fit, not following the rules or laws set by the MoM. As happens in many societies

lots (of wizards) would have believed post 406 (I may of used emotive words, This is the language used control a people. such as the WW at that time)

most parents (including the Weasleys)would not have wanted their children belonging to an organisation like the DA

some reasons include; leave the fighting to those trained to do so, too dangerous for children, it is against current school policy.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 10, 2004 3:27 am (#461 of 1227)

Problem is, there's a war on. The Ministry made a terrible mistake by pretending that Lord Voldemort hadn't come back, so it was up to the kids to train themselves in case of battle. "Those without swords can still die on them."

taniwha - Aug 10, 2004 4:22 am (#462 of 1227)

I was talking about the time before the general wizard population believed there was a war, even so, the Weasleys(in particular Mrs Molly Weasley) who knew there was a war about to start did not want their children participating in a group such as the DA

Ozymandias - Aug 10, 2004 4:30 am (#463 of 1227)

I think it's quite important that the DA existed against the wishes of their parents and other authority figures. They are growing up, becoming adults, and they must learn to make decisions for themselves rather than blindly following their parents, their teachers or their peers. The fact that the DA members choose what they think is right over conformity and obediance, to me, is not a sign of delinquincy or rebellion, but of children who are maturing into adults. I applaud the DA for making a difficult decision and facing public ridicule, parental disapproval, school or ministry punishment and even torture or death to do what they believe is right. That's difficult to do at any age, so for teenagers it shows real strength of character.

ShelterGirl - Aug 10, 2004 5:05 am (#464 of 1227)

I agree with Ozymandias. We shouldn't forget that the DA was not an illegal group when it was formed, and that these kids were taking their educations into their own hands. What if it had been certain aspects of History of Magic that had been banned? Yes, yes, happy dancing all around...but just think...Ms Umbridge walks in and says, "You are NOT to read such and such. Those books are not approved by the Ministry." What then? The kids start a black market trade in books, books are seized and Incendioed, a monitoring system begins in the school to make sure that no illegal books are being read, and Big Sister is watching all. Yes, I'm mixing literary metaphors, but still. Don't forget, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..." If they had only received information about defensive spells from a book, and never had the chance to apply that information practically by practicing in a safe environment; then when the time came where those spells were actually needed the situation could have been catastrophic.

These kids absolutely did the right thing.

Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 5:34 am (#465 of 1227)

A couple comments. Nathan thanks for the pick up that Padma was the only prefect (non-non-Slytherin variety) missing at the Hogwarts Express skirmish. Where was she?

Someone on one of these forums, can't remember which, made a list of Harry's 'inner core.' This inner core is made up of the people who ride the Express with Harry.(I like the inner core imagery.) Through the first 4 books his fellow students are only Hermione, Ron, and Ginny (I think). In OOTP Neville and Luna join. I was fine with this and then thought that there is only one adult in the group. Lupin rides to Hogwarts in POA. This would seem to make an inner core of 7 members, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, Luna, and Lupin. I'll be on the look out for new additions. Repeating numbers are a theme of the books. I have followed the 12s and 13s now I'll have to look into the 7s.

On the other hand, maybe I'm onto a bunch of nothing.

TomProffitt - Aug 10, 2004 5:37 am (#466 of 1227)

I believe that was me, Steve.

It was quite by accident that I stumbled onto that. When you start reading HBP, pay attention to who is on the train with Harry. That will tell you a lot about who is important in the book.

Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 5:57 am (#467 of 1227)

TP, you are probably right, I should have checked.

I also fully what you say in post 445. The DA is a sort of loose cannon right now and they would do well to have the more experienced Order to show them the ropes.

ex-FAHgeek - Aug 10, 2004 6:59 am (#468 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 8:03 am

---quote--- Nathan thanks for the pick up that Padma was the only prefect (non-non-Slytherin variety) missing at the Hogwarts Express skirmish. Where was she? ---end quote---

My guess would be hanging out with Parvati...

Really, upping the total of DA members in one train compartment beyond six would have been a bit much - the entire club doesn't have to hang out together all the time!

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 10, 2004 7:27 am (#469 of 1227)
Edited Aug 10, 2004 8:30 am

ex-FAHgeek I agree most train compartments cannot hold comfortably more than six. Also, it is most likely that Padma was together in a separate compartment with Parvati and Lavender.

ex-FAHgeek - Aug 10, 2004 7:34 am (#470 of 1227)

---quote--- ex-FAHgeek I agree most train compartments cannot hold comfortably more than six. ---end quote---

Comfort itself may not necessarily be the issue (look at the inside of the Weasleys' car), but it just seems a bit ridiculous if we stuff too many DA members into one place. The entire club can't hang out together 24/7 - they never have before, and while they've grown closer as a group, they still have their own inner circles.

drippan - Aug 10, 2004 7:35 am (#471 of 1227)
Edited Aug 10, 2004 8:42 am

I think Padma might have been patrolling the train. Remember Ron and Hermione had to patrol once in a while on the train to Hogwart's.

I imagine that one of the prefects also had to be on patrol.

DripPan

drippan - Aug 10, 2004 7:41 am (#472 of 1227)

taniwha,

"Did the government act properly in the OotP? Did they represent the people who elected them in a proper manner?"

"I believe many people at the time believed they did, they made (some would believe) great strides in modifying education. discourage fighting and other violence from schools, if it is not taught then students are less likely to practise fighting. Also geting rid of the bad teachers, many would have supported the administration."

Well, I agree that alot of wizards were kept in the dark but that wasn't the question.

Do you think the government acted properly in the OotP?

DripPan

P.S. Sorry about the double post but I wanted to seperate the 2 topics.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 10, 2004 7:46 am (#473 of 1227)

Both are equally likely scenarios. I doubt that Padma's absence during the train scene is significant to the future of the DA in books six and seven.

The three characters who may have a shift in their roles from OotP are Zacharias Smith, Marietta Edgecombe, and Cho Chang.

Czarina II - Aug 10, 2004 8:30 am (#474 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 9:32 am

It's also interesting that Terry Boot and Anthony Goldstein only joined the DA as friends of Michael Corner, who only joined because of Ginny. Now they are hanging out with the Hufflepuff Quartet. I wonder if they're still friends with Corner? Corner was probably with Cho and Marietta in whatever compartment they were in. Padma, if she wasn't patrolling the corridor (which makes perfect sense), was probably sitting with Parvati, Lavender, Seamus, and Dean, or maybe with those unnamed Ravenclaws in JKR's notebook. Zacharias Smith probably has friends on the Hufflepuff Quidditch team whom he hangs out with. I think he was the red herring so that we would not suspect Marietta, but Smith is probably quite loyal to the DA.

Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 8:48 am (#475 of 1227)
Edited Aug 10, 2004 9:52 am

I thought it was significant that the students who came to Harry's aid--who were watchful and defensive--did not include any of the "Big 5" who fought with him in the ministry. And since none of them were Gryffindors, they weren't just sticking up for their housemates. I'd say that this is the first real show of solidarity among three of the houses, at least. I also think it is important that there are prefects among the group, because they are leaders in their houses.

Regarding people like Cho, Zacharias, and Marietta ... they now know that this is not a game and that Voldemort is back with a vengeance. We could see them stepping up to the plate and admitting they were wrong to take things so lightly. Then again, perhaps Marietta won't even be back.

I look for kids in all of the houses who were more on the "periphery"--Dean, Seamus, and others like them--to join in with the kids who already form the core of the DA. I see them really fleshing out the numbers of the DA, or whatever it is called in Book 6, because I think this is exactly what the Sorting Hat has been encouraging.

Relations between as well as within Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor Houses seem to have been brittle and strained, due mainly to the lies being told by the Ministry, the slanderous articles in the Prophet, and Umbridge's use of the kids as spies. There was mistrust and dissent among the students. Now that the factors creating those problems have been removed, the already strong core can begin growing.

The wild card will be the non-DE Slytherins. If all of the houses are showing unity and support of each other, how much pressure/control will Draco & the kids of known DEs be able to exert on other Slytherins? Sorry for the rambling ... I'm trying to work out some things in my brain here, and I haven't had my coffee yet.

Solitaire

Edited for omissions

Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 8:57 am (#476 of 1227)

Marietta will have a hard time being accepted by the DA even if she wants to come back. (Does she remember any of the training?)

Cho might have trouble also. She has strained relations with Harry and she is a friend of the traitor. Not sure whether or not she would be accepted.

Zacharias is very aggressive, verbally, and a sort of troublemaker but I think that he is very loyal to the DA. His aggressiveness is a style that I have seen used by others. Challenge the authority and you might learn more for yourself. He also might make a good leader.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 10, 2004 9:14 am (#477 of 1227)

I like Zacharias Smith... my only disappointmnent was that he wasn't a Slytherin - he easily could have been. Oh, and it would have been cool if he duplicated himself and went around saying, "Mr. Potter...". Just kidding!

Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 9:43 am (#478 of 1227)

Zacharias might get along better, too, now that Gred & Forge are gone. Remember, they liked to hide behind him and "counteract" some of the spells he tried, just because he was such a brat at first!

Oh, this makes me wonder ... will Gred & Forge ever come back to "sit exams"? Didn't they leave before NEWTs? I wonder if they need them for the Order. Do you suppose there's a wizard equivalent to the GED?

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 10:01 am (#479 of 1227)

Since the Order is not an official organization I wouldn't think that they would have formal requirements for membership. Of course, they don't include any Muggles that I know of.

Detail Seeker - Aug 10, 2004 12:23 pm (#480 of 1227)

Taniwha, your advocatus diaboli argumentation was interesting to read, though, excuse me if say that rather directly, somewhat overheated in tone.

But this set aside, I think, I have some, perhaps a little longwinded, remarks to put into this discussion, as the questions you ask go straight to the centre of a vital question for the survival of a community, of a nation. The question of responsibility.

The "leave it to the authorities" parole frees you of all the responsibility for the community except the possibility to actively elect them (or to select between those presented to you by the powers that be).Otherwise you can do what serves you best (in many cases agaist this community) and by that you do not necessarily think about consequences and you are encouraged not to care too much either. The "authorities" do for you (and themeselves).You become an easily manipulated and isolated being, unless you start to inform yourself actively.

This need not leave to a rebellious state of mind, if "authorities" are doing their job well - in your eyes well. But keeping your eyes open is a first step against the "leave it to the authorities" state of mind. If you feel resonsible for your community though you are not commissioned to be so, you start fulfilling the content of "republic", of "democracy". "Republic" doen not fulfill itself, if there is a ruling parliament, "republic" happens, if the citizens feel responsible. "Leave it to the authorities" does not breed responsible citizens.

Everybody acts according to his state of informations. And if I am aware of a situation, I am going to prepare me those, who I care for, for this upcoming situation regardless of things as "public opininion" and laws prepared to make life easy for the "authorities". This needs some braveness and straightness and consequence in acting- main character traits encouraged by Gryffindor house spirit.

So, founding the DA, the Trio - especially Hermione as the real motor of it - lived up to that.

Of course, the Ministry has every right to think that the DA qualified for all the assessments with negative connotations you gave it.And, of course, most parents would think it nice for their children to grow up in peace, unbothered by reality. But, if information is there, that the peace is endangered, the choice must be made: "Kick me, but let me survive" or "Lever dood as Slaav (Better dead than slave)". Overprotective parents not wanting their children even to prepare are often the death of a community.

This decision was a question of whom do you believe for all the DA-members or non-members. Everyone had good reasons to believe or not believe one or the other side, for acting as you, Taniwha proposed orfor joining the DA - and going to or at least wanting to go to the MoM, which is of coures a second step.

Sorry for ths long post, but I had to throw this into the ring.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 10, 2004 2:44 pm (#481 of 1227)

Detail Seeker, I agree the decision to join or not to join Dumbledore's Army was for the students an intensely personal choice. I would argue that for the prefects of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff the decision to join the D.A. was more complicated. Because, their membership in the organization could have been used by Umbridge to strip them of their positions.

On another note referring back to the mentoring idea. Besides Lupin what other members of the Order of the Phoenix would be good mentors

Catherine - Aug 10, 2004 3:58 pm (#482 of 1227)
Edited Aug 10, 2004 4:59 pm

I've tried to keep all the points of the 70-plus posts I've just read in mind.

There were some very inflammatory accusations in there.

The DA consorting with a "known murderer" hit home. Who, pray, is that murderer? I don't remember one at the DA meetings, and I don't think anyone in the DA consorts willingly with Voldemort or Peter, the two known murderers who come to mind.

Perhaps I should revisit all those posts to make sure.

Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 4:47 pm (#483 of 1227)

Catherine, I may be wrong, but I think that poster was considering Harry as the killer of Cedric--or possibly Quirrell. Maybe he was being a Devil's Advocate, but I don't know.

Czarina II - Aug 10, 2004 5:16 pm (#484 of 1227)

I thought the poster was referring to Sirius.

Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 6:10 pm (#485 of 1227)

The DA consorting with a "known murderer" hit home

The DA as a group did not consort with Sirius. Only Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys knew Sirius.

TomProffitt - Aug 10, 2004 7:48 pm (#486 of 1227)

"Besides Lupin what other members of the Order of the Phoenix would be good mentors." --- Nathan Zimmermann

Tonks and Moody have also been mentoring the DA members. (at least the gang that goes to 12 GP)

The two are a good pair. Youthful energy, young enough to remember what it was like as teenager combined with grim experience and caution.

taniwha - Aug 11, 2004 2:15 am (#487 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 11, 2004 3:26 am

I did mean Sirius Black, believed by most wizards to be guilty

Harry Potter is the leader of the DA, other members, the Weasleys and Granger (those that run the DA) had contact.

first of all in reply to drippan –

"Did the government act properly in the OotP? Did they represent the people who elected them in a proper manner?"

There is a major problem in the WW. There is only one major news outlet(which we know about), the daily prophet. There may be news on wizard radio? Why a tabloid style newspaper is the most respected source may seem unusual.

It is wrong for one person or organisation to control the flow of information is wrong. Be it government or a person with the own agenda, which is worse I leave to you.. – eg Fudge or the Lord Voldermont?

For that reason the government did not act properly.

It put labels on its perceived enemies such .”an Enemy of the state”. And other name calling

It would have called the OOtP and the DA subversive, even terrorist

Fudge tried to discredit anyone who was a threat to his power.

The other problem was the loose cannon Umbridge, who knew what she wanted to do, and was not going to let anyone get in her way.

Most of what affected Harry was due to Umbridge. Fudge didn’t (want to) believe that a dementor was in Little Whinging.

They did not do a proper job of government

It was not a good government. decision to not properly check that Voldemont had not returned. Fudge effectively put his bet his repetition that he had not returned

But if there was an election before Voldermont showed himself, Fudge probably would have won convincingly

Did they represent the people who elected them [/b]- Maybe

In a proper manner?" – No

Second

The reason I wrote that post yesterday (my time) in a style more likely seen in the daily prophet was I had seen too many posts implying Harry Potter and the DA were good, Malfoy very bad. While in truth it is not black and white but they are different shades of grey.

I repeat. Malloy is all mouth, he likes to wind people up, maybe provoke a fight. Harry potter may feel threatened. But the only time Malfoy attacked first was when Harry criticised his Draco’s mother (I exclude when required force was used to restrain Harry for Umbridge) Malfoy may use other more accepted channels to get advantage over people

In contrast DA members have reacted quicker with fist or wand. And in a manner which exceeds that of self defence. More in a manner to punish than to defend.

That the DA came to Harry Potters defence was good, but did they have to leave Malfoy and gang in such a state, that is just bulling.

I was a little surpised at the reponse to my post 415

it is a wizard school, therefore personal saftey of students is not important????

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 3:16 am (#488 of 1227)
Edited Aug 11, 2004 4:17 am

taniwh, I'm curious, do you consider the DE's a "terrorist" organization?

taniwha - Aug 11, 2004 4:05 am (#489 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 11, 2004 5:21 am

terrorists or criminals, use the name you wish

yes, of course the DE's are terrorists

but I prefer to label DEs criminals or name their crimes eg murderer

taniwha - Aug 11, 2004 5:50 am (#490 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 11, 2004 6:53 am

Detail Seeker - Better dead than slave. Overprotective parents not wanting their children even to prepare are often the death of a community.

I like your argument.

You also IMPLY there is a magical community that wizards actively feel part of. This community is worth saving.. I can see this could be explored later on ...

The OOtP is secret organisation. To protect itself and its members it needs to remain secret. When it finds someone with the qualities it requires, it invites them to join.

If the OOtP participates in a mentoring scheme with the DA, this could compromise security.

I am not saying the DA (if it survives in its present state) should not be supervised/mentored by someone who is in the OOtP, but not by a “OOtP member” – someone who identifies themselves as belonging to the OOtP

The DA is made up of teenagers, I am sure there are many more people better qualified to join the OOtP before most of the DA members

Detail Seeker - Aug 11, 2004 12:45 pm (#491 of 1227)

I agree with you, taniwha, on the assessment, that any mentor of DA, if it continues, may be a Member of the Order, but he/she will certainly not proclaim this.

Certainly, there will be many more apt persons in the wizarding world, that would be worth joining the Order now - but the DA participants will be among the first choice, once they have left Hogwarts and found their place in the WW - if the Order is still necessary, then.

Sir Tornado - Aug 11, 2004 8:34 pm (#492 of 1227)

I agree with your post# 406, Taniwha. It has really livened my week. The DA is a well, I won't call it terrorist, but it is a Militant organisation, and Mr Fudge and Madam Umbridge were legally correct in banning it.

Hollywand - Aug 11, 2004 8:57 pm (#493 of 1227)

Tornedo, then your argument is in favor of the state intruding on intellectual freedom.

Consider that this series of books we are freely discussing has been under some very serious criticism and attack which has been defended by intellectuals arguing for academic freedom. Rowling must have some of this experience in mind as she writes the series.

"Terrorist" and "militant" and "criminal" are incendiary labels, and I find the use of them to describe Harry's very group troubling.

Terrorists organize to attack unsuspecting civilian targets. That certainly doesn't describe Harry's group, it's just incendiary and offensive language.

Umbridge and Fudge forced Hogwarts into a defensive position with their blind, despotic intrusions and hideously poor governing skills, and Umbridge with her repressive approach to education. To support their methods is to follow the state like a lemming, and against democratic principles, and for ignorance in favor of order.

Taniwa, I object to what I feel is an incendiary choice of words leading to an uncomfortable method of discussion.

No more for me, that's all I'm going to say in this vein.

Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 9:07 pm (#494 of 1227)

I'm afraid I must stand with Hollywand on this one, too.

Leila 2X4B - Aug 11, 2004 9:10 pm (#495 of 1227)
Edited Aug 11, 2004 10:11 pm

I second Hollywand, I feel that perhaps a new topic should be started. The words, and ideas behind, terrorist and terrorism come too close to home for some of us.

Leila

Edited for spelling

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 9:11 pm (#496 of 1227)

Hear, hear Hollywand! Join me in a butterbeer?

I too find this discussion taking a dark note I don't care for, and being a true Gryffindor, I look at "legal" and "the law" with a jaundiced eye. I consider myself a survivor, so, in additon to a butterbeer, maybe we can introduce taniwa to the delights of a stoat sandwich?

Hollywand - Aug 11, 2004 9:16 pm (#497 of 1227)

Thanks for your voices of support. Gosh, these books that are so precious to us and are giving us such joy have been burned, for goodness sakes.

And yes, dear Twinks, I will take that butterbeer, and that stoat sandwich you have been so generously offering.... ;-)

Imagine....we are taking umbrage of the Umbridge thread, is it not bizarre?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 9:27 pm (#498 of 1227)

"That's wizards chess"...

St Mungo's has released me for a few days pass.

"Imagine....we are taking umbrage of the Umbridge thread, is it not bizarre?" I find it interesting, with the readership of this forum, it has taken this long. (I may have missed before on deleted threads).

At any rate, tis neither here, nor there, just is...

One of those little things in life you are aware of, but, remember dear, is the "choices" you make that counts....

Czarina II - Aug 11, 2004 9:34 pm (#499 of 1227)

If any organisation that is working "against" the government is a militant terrorist organisation, in a democracy all opposing parties would be terrorists.

I hope that wasn't too political -- I just wanted to provide an example.

The DA was formed as a study group to learn DADA, not to do battle with the Ministry. Its actual name is the Defense Association, 'Dumbledore's Army' is an inside joke. It's the more common name, though.

Whatever the intentions or perceptions of the group by outsiders or even among its members, the DA itself is still a DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS study group. Covert, yes, but its purpose is still genuine and innocent. Parents would say "Oh, my son/daughter is learning more indepth DADA to prepare for their OWLs/NEWTs. What a good idea!" Where is the evidence that the DA is anything more?

Ozymandias - Aug 11, 2004 9:39 pm (#500 of 1227)
Edited Aug 11, 2004 10:43 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with what Hollywand and the others have said about the direction this thread has taken. So, to change the subject, I have a question.

Will we see any Slytherins join the DA in HBP? We need some inter-house unity! Personally, I think there will be one or two non-Death Nibbler Slytherins who join up (Terrence Nott, anyone? Perhaps Pansy, if Marcus is right about her), and they will be ostracized by the rest of their house. Of course, they're on the side of good, so all will be well in the end. Thoughts?

EDIT: Whee! 500th post!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:08 am

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 11, 2004 9:45 pm (#501 of 1227)
Edited Aug 11, 2004 10:48 pm

I agree that Dumbledore's Army is a militant organization. However, said militancy must be viewed in context of the larger picture that existed within the confines of Hogwarts at the time of the establishment of Dumbledore's Army. Now that Professor Umbridge has been removed from Hogwarts and the decrees she imposed rescinded. The militant nature of the organization will possibly become more moderated.

Since, the formation of the D.A. was an equal and opposite reaction to the force exerted by Professor Umbridge. The departure of Umbridge removed the force that engendered the reaction of the students that formed the D.A. The loss of the opposing force reduces the need for militancy. Thus engendering the shift of the D.A. from a militant organization to a more moderate organization.

Cheers, Nathan

Czarina II - Aug 11, 2004 9:52 pm (#502 of 1227)

Good point, Nathan. I agree. (But "militant" does not equal "terrorist".)

Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 10:01 pm (#503 of 1227)

Ozymandias, I think Pansy is the perfect choice! And when they need a coatrack, they can stand her in a corner and use her antlers! (I'm sorry ... I thought we needed a bit of levity here. I'll be ironing my hands now.)

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 10:05 pm (#504 of 1227)

No ironing necessary, we wash and wear....

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 11, 2004 10:39 pm (#505 of 1227)

Czarina, I agree being militant does not necessarily mean that a person or organization is necessarily terroristic in nature.

Sir Tornado - Aug 12, 2004 3:02 am (#506 of 1227)

Umbridge and Fudge forced Hogwarts into a defensive position with their blind, despotic intrusions and hideously poor governing skills, and Umbridge with her repressive approach to education. -- Hollywand

I agree with you. What I meant was that DA is a militant organisation which is doing something that is Morally correct but legaly wrong. I still love the DA.

Terrorists organize to attack unsuspecting civilian targets. That certainly doesn't describe Harry's group, it's just incendiary and offensive language. -- Hollywand

Notice my post prior to yours; I said DA is NOT a terrorist organisation, but is a militant organisation; there is a difference; fighting for their rights against an elected Government. Simple as that.

Czarina II - Aug 12, 2004 3:39 am (#507 of 1227)

Why necessarily Pansy? Why not a Slytherin we've not or only barely met, like Nott or Greengrass or Bulstrode or Zabini? I think this is likely. Pansy is very well-known and I think a lot of students know her as Draco's girlfriend. She is less trustworthy than someone who has little obvious connection to Malfoy.

Ozymandias - Aug 12, 2004 3:46 am (#508 of 1227)
Edited Aug 12, 2004 4:50 am

Czarina, I was referring to Prefect Marcus's theory that Pansy will reform and end up dating Harry. I'm not convinced, but it's a beautifully put-together theory. Check out this thread if you're interested in that. Prefect Marcus "Harry's 'ship uniting the houses." 8/10/04 11:12am

I agree that some of the lesser-known Slytherins are likely candidates, especially Nott and mystery Thestral Boy. There's also the possibility of a new first-year Slytherin joining up. (I was thinking Mark Evans, but alas, earwax.) Whoever it is, I'll be severely dissapointed if we don't see a Slytherin DA member or two in HBP.

Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2004 5:39 am (#509 of 1227)

While I think that now that Umbridge is gone the DA will moderate a bit, I do think that it is unlikely. There's a war on dontchaknow.

Annika - Aug 12, 2004 6:05 am (#510 of 1227)

I agree that it would be interesting to see a few Slytherins join the DA. I imagine their inclusion will be less than welcome by some of the members. It is my hope that Harry stands up for whichever Slytherins decide to join (I hope Pansy is among them!) in an effort to unite the houses.

Mynn - Aug 12, 2004 8:50 am (#511 of 1227)

Maybe I'm off my rockers here, and I love Dumbledore's Army and I thought the DA was totally Neccessary considering the circumstances under which it was formed, but maybe *crosses fingers and closes eyes wishing really really hard * just maybe the new defense against the darks art teacher will be a good teacher and DA will be obsolete. At least as it currently stands.

Dumbledore is full aware that hard times are coming and I would hope and pray that his behavior in the fifth book (isolating Harry) would not continue. I think and hope that Dumbledore will make sure that Harry, and all of the other students have the opportunity to learn to defend themselves.

Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2004 9:07 am (#512 of 1227)

I'm not sure that the DA would be obsolete even with a good DADA teacher. I also can't remember a case where an obsolete organization decided to disband.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 12, 2004 9:47 am (#513 of 1227)

Steve, I agree I think that the D.A. will work in concert with the DADA teacher to improve their skills. I envision them becoming more of a study group led by Harry, Hermione, and Ron to supplement the practice they receive in class.

Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 12:36 pm (#514 of 1227)

I tend to go along with Nathan and Steve. Even the best DADA teacher has limited time to spend with the students, because there are so many students. I would hope that, in the coming books, the DADA teacher is someone who is competent and pro-Order. Such a person would see the need for the DA as it was originally intended--a group that provides the kids with opportunities to practice DEFENSIVE magic--and hopefully would want to work in concert with it.

The truth is that it WAS only a practice/study group ... UNTIL it became necessary for some of the members to USE the skills they'd learned in what they genuinely believed to be a rescue mission.

What I hope will have emerged from the events which took place in the MoM is that, if the kids hope to be effective, they need to make sure that their information is accurate. Harry has had sufficient experience with Voldemort by now to understand the methods he will use and the lengths to which he will go to get Harry in a vulnerable position. And, to be honest, Harry does have a tendency to play into this by keeping critical information to himself.

I feel it is CRUCIAL for Harry to begin communicating more clearly with the trustworthy adults in his world. He must stop waiting until it is too late to seek their help. Someone he loves has already paid the price. I hope that he will learn from what happened.

Solitaire

MrsGump - Aug 12, 2004 1:07 pm (#515 of 1227)

Maybe the new DADA teacher will be the DA's sponsor/ adviser.

I teach Chemistry and I'm the Science Club advisor. If we get a decent teacher, they might enjoy spending time with students who want to practice or learn more in-depth DADA than they have time to cover in class.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 12, 2004 1:12 pm (#516 of 1227)

"It is my hope that Harry stands up for whichever Slytherins decide to join (I hope Pansy is among them!) in an effort to unite the houses."

Yes, I hope so too. I can just see him saying: "Voldemort's enemies are my allies."

Of course, Hermione will either stand up for those Slytherins or go back on her word, since it was her idea to admit "anyone who wanted to learn..."

Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 1:18 pm (#517 of 1227)

I do hope we see some non-evil Slytherins. I think it is the only way of "saving the system," so to speak.

I still find it interesting that DE kids Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle always flinch when Harry says the name Voldemort. I really don't see Draco changing his spots. But I wonder ... just how loyal do you suppose Crabbe and Goyle, Jrs., are to Draco? Do you think anything might induce them to change sides? Just a wild, hair-brained idea I wanted to float. Please don't make me iron my hands.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 12, 2004 4:06 pm (#518 of 1227)

Hello. I have been lurking. I would love to see a Slytherin in the DA. JKR exposes us to many different kinds of prejudice. Having a Slytherin in the DA would overcome the belief that all Slytherins are evil. I'm not sure Crabbe and Goyle jr. have the strength of mind to defy Malfoy and their parents.

Snape (excuse me, Profossor Snape) isn't even comfortable using Voldemorts name. He gets angry at Harry for using it. LPO

Paulus Maximus - Aug 12, 2004 4:59 pm (#519 of 1227)
Edited Aug 12, 2004 6:02 pm

Dumbledore says that Voldemort is as merciless to his followers as to his enemies.

Naturally, it then follows that both his followers and his enemies would be equally afraid to speak his name.

It makes me wonder about those who AREN'T afraid to speak his name...

Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 5:08 pm (#520 of 1227)

Well, there aren't too many of them, are there, Paulus? Have you met any Slytherin thus far who, in your opinion, might be a "side switcher"? Nott? The "thestral kid" (assuming that isn't Nott)? Just curious.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 5:09 pm (#521 of 1227)
Edited Aug 12, 2004 6:10 pm

"Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself."

No sense in talking yourself into being afraid of something.

Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 6:06 pm (#522 of 1227)

Twinkling, that reminds me of something. Remember when Harry arrives back in DD's office via the portkey? Phineas Nigellus tells him the office is supposed to be "barred to all but the rightful headmaster. Or has Dumbledore sent you here? Oh, don't tell me ... another message for my worthless great-great-grandson?"

Harry could not speak. Phineas Nigellus did not know that Sirius was dead, but Harry could not tell him. To say it aloud would be to make it final, absolute, irretrievable.

When we declare or acknowledge certain facts, then we grant them a sort of finality, or reality. Is this why so many Wizards fear saying the name of Voldemort ... as if NOT saying it means he isn't really alive and HERE, he isn't something I must face and deal with.

Little kids use this tactic a lot. If they just pretend something doesn't exist and refuse to acknowledge it, then it will go away. Fudge has obviously used it. If I remember correctly, the Dursleys have used it a few times on Harry. They certainly used it with regard to his parents--as if by not talking about them, who and what they were and why they died was wiped off the map.

A similar response is the old "from your mouth to God's ear" behavior--a superstition of sorts which seems to imply that talking about someone or something will bring about the event or call the speaker to the attention of the person he has been wishing to avoid.

I guess these behaviors sum up how powerless the WW as a whole seem to feel about Voldemort ... and that is scary. How will they ever join forces to defeat him if they are too scared to even say his name and admit that he exists?

And this calls up yet another question: How many DEs would change camps immediately if they thought they could truly escape him?

It will be interesting to see how the Hogwarts kids--and the DA kids in particular--handle this whole issue in the coming year. Sorry to ramble ...

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 6:19 pm (#523 of 1227)

Very astute observations Soli.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 12, 2004 6:29 pm (#524 of 1227)
Edited Aug 12, 2004 7:32 pm

It's really weird. Even when forced to admit that Voldemort had returned, having seen Voldemort with his own eyes, Fudge couldn't bring himself to say so much as You Know Who, let alone Voldemort.

I think that he's STILL in denial about YKW's return.

"It is with great regret that I must inform you that Lord... you know what I mean... has returned to this country and is active once more... We believe that the dementors are currently taking direction from Lord... Thingy..." (Paraphrased by yours truly).

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 12, 2004 6:47 pm (#525 of 1227)

I think Fudge actually showed a little bravery there - he started to say Voldie's name, then realized it would be like swearing, and so didn't say it.

taniwha - Aug 12, 2004 9:48 pm (#526 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 12, 2004 11:13 pm

TwinklingBlueEyes –

(#496) being a true Gryffindor, I look at "legal" and "the law" with a jaundiced eye. I consider myself a survivor.

(#441 )I am a Gryffindor, with a sight perchance of breaking the rules. I do what I consider right, same as the DA members.

You might belong in Gryffindor,
Where dwell the brave at heart,
Their daring, nerve, and chivalry
Set Gryffindors apart;

Or perhaps in Slytherin
You'll make your real friends,
Those cunning folks use any means
To achieve their ends.

Gryffindor or Slytherin?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 13, 2004 2:01 am (#527 of 1227)

Gryffindor

David V - Aug 13, 2004 9:22 am (#528 of 1227)

In GF, Moody/Crouch JR says, "Now, according to the Ministry of Magic, I'm supposed to teach you countercurses and leave it at that. I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year." (italicized by me), GF, pg. 211, US edition

This means in HBP, Harry and all are going to learn more than ever about Dark curses and spells. Do you think this lessens the need for the DA at all?

I think the DA is an excellent opportunity for the students to learn more and share ideas as a study group, and I hope it lasts through HBP, but it seems that this year, they'll be learning these things in DADA.

TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2004 9:45 am (#529 of 1227)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 10:46 am

"Do you think this lessens the need for the DA at all?" --- Potterhead

I've said it before, and don't mind repeating (I think its significant), the need for the DA is in the mind of its members.

They are no longer a study group. They are not merely rebels against Umbridge. They are comrades in arms. They are the true and trusted friends that can rely on one another through the second war with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

Albus Dumbledore himself could teach Defense Against the Dark Arts and this group of friends would feel the need to remain together.

EDIT: I mean all 20-however-many, not just the six who fought at DoM

David V - Aug 13, 2004 9:59 am (#530 of 1227)

Tom, I understand what you're saying, and I agree.

I'm referring to the actual meeting of these "comrades in arms". Sure, they are all true friends who will come to the aid of any other member should the need arise, but with them having a presumably more intensive DADA class, do you think the actually DA "classes" are necessary anymore.

I mean, they can still meet over lunch or out on the hogwarts grounds to review notes, can't they?

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 10:59 am (#531 of 1227)

Even good Quidditch players need to practice their strategies for coming games--and as far as the Gryffindor team goes, they adjust their strategies according to the known strengths and tactics of their opponents.

Don't you think it will be far more necessary to have plenty of tactical and strategic practice to prep for the war? The more practice, the more quickly and easily the kids will be able to remember and apply what they have learned "under fire." Just my 2 sickles, of course.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 11:13 am (#532 of 1227)

Speaking of the Unforgivable Curses by my count only two D.A. members (Harry and Neville) have been subjected to pain caused by having the Cruciatus Curse cast upon them

Also, only Harry has for certain been subjected to the Imperius Curse, although, I think Ginny was acting under the Imperius Curse in CoS. I have a feeling that this will contribute to amnner in which they undertake DADA in the sixth year. I also have a feeling that with the Return of Voldemort DADA will be made a required course regardless of career path

Good Evans - Aug 13, 2004 11:19 am (#533 of 1227)

Nathan - now that is a good point - was Ginny under imperius or was she possessed by LV? Certainly up to now we have been lead to believe possessed. Ig she was under imperius no "skills" cna have transferred to her = other threads have discussed whether she may ahve picked up parselmouth. if you are corrct (and it is imperius) this is not possible.

Sara Elizabeth - Aug 13, 2004 11:31 am (#534 of 1227)

Forgive if this has been mentioned, but it seems the running consensus is that only Slytherin students whose parents are not Death Eaters have a chance of being in the DA. Don't you think it is possible that maybe on of the Death Eaters children will be disturbed by their parent's behavior and fight for the other side. Sirius, although not in Slytherin, went against his family for what he thought was right.

Sara

Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 11:33 am (#535 of 1227)

Sara,

How would you know you could trust them?

I will admit that I think that Goyle will come over.

Good Evans - Aug 13, 2004 11:34 am (#536 of 1227)

Sara

a fair few people have alluded to this -I think you may well be right - my money is on crabbe or goyle to wake up and swap sides. acceptance in to DA would be the ultimate proof of acceptance - so it is going to take some serious convinvincing of harry to get this foot in the door. As Harry knows most of the DE's by name I expect he will be hard to convince.,,,

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 12:41 pm (#537 of 1227)

Actually, Sara, I think more than a few of us have speculated on whether any child(ren) of DEs might actually be motivated to switch. I do not really consider Crabbe and Goyle to be very brave, and from the comments even Draco makes, they don't even seem particularly intelligent. I'm not even sure how much they would hate Harry, if it weren't for Malfoy. Those things might be important to know in speculating whether or not they would join forces with the other three houses.

I think it is just as possible as not for kids who have been died-in-the-wool Slytherins to shift loyalties to Dumbledore--or rather to openly admit those loyalties (that they may have had all along but concealed in order to "fit in"). Does this make sense?

Several people have suggested that some (if not all) of the Slytherin/DE kids may not even know that their parents are torturer/murderers. I sometimes wonder just exactly how much Draco knows of his father's activities. If he truly does know Lucius is a DE and still stands by him, then maybe we may have to wait until Draco actually AK's someone--or SEES them AK'd--to know for certain what he truly is underneath it all.

I have considered him evil all along, but some have pointed out to me that he is all talk. Perhaps. (He certainly was a coward in the Forbidden Forest when they came upon Quirrell/Voldemort drinking the unicorn blood.) We do not know yet exactly how much of his parents' activities he knows. We also do not know for certain how he feels about Voldemort--although he DOES seem to flinch every time the name is said. I wonder why Harry never does ask Dobby more about the Malfoys. I certainly would pick his brain relentlessly for information, if I were Harry.

AT any rate, I'd hate to count out the Slytherins completely. I agree that trusting any "turncoat" will not be easy for our Trio ... but perhaps Harry can perform a bit of legilimancy on them. Or maybe Hermione will make them sign the jinxed parchment (or something similar). At some point, I think a Slytherin or two MUST join forces with the other three houses, if Hogwarts as we know it is to survive.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 12:50 pm (#538 of 1227)

"if Hogwarts as we know it is to survive."

I have to agree with the Sorting Hat. The houses are divisive and they will not survive.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 13, 2004 12:58 pm (#539 of 1227)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 1:59 pm

I'm thinking that Theodore Nott might try to join the DA, if he learns what happened in the DoM.

Of course, it depends on whether he is angrier at the DA for injuring his father, or Malfoy for giving the order to abandon him...

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 1:35 pm (#540 of 1227)

It would be really nice to have the characters of some of the Slytherins fleshed out a bit, wouldn't it? They are so one-dimensional that it is difficult to make predictions about them ... well, for me, anyway.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 13, 2004 1:50 pm (#541 of 1227)

I agree Solitaire.

mike miller - Aug 13, 2004 3:09 pm (#542 of 1227)

I agree with you Paulus regard Nott. The events at the DoM could be the straw that broke the camels back. He has seen first hand the havoc Voldemort causes and could recoil from the Death Nibblers. If not Nott, who ever is the mystery Slytherin could cross over.

I think we will see the houses coming together more. What we saw in OotP was just the beginning.

TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2004 7:37 pm (#543 of 1227)

I'm with you Soli, we just know enough about any of the Slytherins to know if or which will side with the good guys.

Frankly, I believe over the course of HBP (a year) Jo could convincingly write out Draco joining the DA. I don't think it will happen, but there is plenty of room in his character development for that to be plausible.

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 9:38 pm (#544 of 1227)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 10:41 pm

It sounds kind of bad to say this, but the Slytherins seem almost like "comic book baddies" to me. Even Draco is sort of a one-note character at this point. We see different emerging facets of kids in other houses (Ernie, Hannah, Cho), so why not Slytherin? They are one-dimensional--or stock characters, at best--at this point in time. Surely each of them must have SOME positive quality or interesting ability, however tiny or undeveloped. If we are ever going to get to know and root for any of the Slytherins, we are going to have to get to know them better ... and FAST!

By contrast, our Gryffindor "good guys" are very well delineated as round, dynamic characters. All of them are a jumble of positive and negative character traits, which contribute to their being more realistic. For example, Harry carries a HUGE, hateful grudge against Snape, and we know he is snappy and irritable with his friends on several occasions. Hermione CAN be a bossy, arrogant know-it-all, although she has certainly changed dramatically from the girl we first met on the train. In fact, she has changed more than just about any character as far as her "personality makeup" goes.

Neville grew by leaps and bounds in many ways in book 5, and we've seen Ginny mature from a quiet, geeky little kid--with a major case of hero worship for Harry--into an outspoken, occasionally brash young woman who can (a) look her mother right in the eye and lie and (b) tell Harry when he is being a butthead (so to speak). It's hard to know about Luna just yet, as she is a fairly new character to us. It would be easy to dismiss "Gred and Forge" as just being stereotypical clowns whose only interesting characteristic is that they are twins. However, they do seem to have deeper aspects to their characters, as is occasionally revealed in talks with Harry & Co. Besides, they MUST be pretty darn smart to make all the things they've made. Frankly, the books would not be as good without them. They are classics!

Ron ... I think Ron is a very complex character with many different layers. He really does embody the typical teen who is anxiously searching for where he fits into the overall scheme of things, longing desperately to find something at which he excels. He sees himself as the "hand-me-down" kid in his home, always getting everyone's leftovers. He bears being labeled as "Harry's best friend" with pretty good grace. He watches as newcomer Harry is crowned Gryffindor's new seeker--something Ron would have LOVED to achieve--and he is Harry's greatest supporter there. Yet we do see his jealousy creep in occasionally--and he acknowledges this. He sees brainy Hermione and knows he can't compete in THAT arena. It must be hard to just feel like his whole identity consists of being the sidekick of someone famous, and I think Ron really encompasses and expresses all of the emotions that would go along with anyone who occupies such a role. I hate to contradict Hermione, but I feel Ron has WAY more emotional range than a teaspoon!

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 14, 2004 2:19 am (#545 of 1227)

Solitaire, we do know that prior to Harry's first year at Hogwarts, the Slytherins were the reigning house champions for 7 straight years and I think they dominated the Quidditch Cup as well. Like Snape and Riddle, they may be cunning and mean, but they nevertheless have some ability. The Malfoys (both old and young) are capable wizards as well. From all we know, even though Slytherins may tend to think for themselves more than anything else, their loyalty to each other may be no less than anyone else's. Some may disagree with me on this but I think it's safe to say that the brotherhood and loyalty shown by some of the most evil of gangters and criminals are no less than the brotherhood of the "good guys" whether they are policemen, military, or just friends. They may also have a code of conduct that you can say is as noble as any. There are good guys among Slytherins and for now, they are simply just too different from Harry and co. that they have not been able to form friendships yet.

When the Slytherins and the other houses all face the same enemy, they'll bound to grow mutual respect for each other.

TomProffitt - Aug 14, 2004 4:43 am (#546 of 1227)
Edited Aug 14, 2004 5:43 am

"...we just know enough about any of the Slytherins ...." --- me

If any of you are wondering why my post didn't make any sense, it's because I left out the word, "don't."

Must go play in traffic.

By the way, Gemini, I think Solitaire would agree with you as I do. There certainly must be "good guys among Slytherins." We're just disappointed that we haven't met any.

Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 7:30 am (#547 of 1227)

Gemini, I think you misread my post and missed my point. I'm not disputing that there are good or smart Slytherins. Please reread the last two sentences of my first paragraph and you will see this. I'm simply saying that, thus far, JKR has really not fleshed out any of the Slytherin kids. You mention Snape and Riddle, but so far, they and Malfoy are the only Slytherins we have seen beyond the surface. We know very little of any of the kids, even Draco, beyond his surface meanness.

It is obvious that the Gryffindors are so well delineated because they are in Harry's "inner circle" and are frequently a part of his adventures. It is natural for us to see and know them in more depth. But we have also begun to know more of characters like Cho, Ernie, Luna, even Marietta Edgcombe.

My point is that the only time we see any interaction with the Slytherins, they come off as one-dimensional baddies. I'm not saying that this is all they ARE; I'm saying this is all we are allowed to SEE. Granted, we are seeing from a limited omniscient point of view through Harry's eyes ... but I hope JKR begins to open up some of the Slytherin characters more fully to Harry AND to us, the readers, so that we--and Harry--can begin to know, understand, and maybe even care about them a little bit.

Does this make sense?

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 14, 2004 5:26 pm (#548 of 1227)
Edited Aug 14, 2004 6:37 pm

Sorry if I missed your point entirely although I actually was trying to answer your point about "thus far, JKR has really not fleshed out any of the Slytherin kids." I was simply trying to suggest that although Harry has not attempted to understand any of the Slytherins so far, we do have have some information on what some of them are about. Do we really know more about Abbott, Marietta, and even Bill and Charlie than we do about Draco? Do we really know anything about Abbott? Do we really know Marietta? Definitely not why Cho is friends with her. We think we know a lot about Bill and Charlie because of what Ron, Ginny, Fred, George and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley say about them and from their brief appearances in the book. We feel we have quite firm grasp on Mrs. Weasley's character but is she that well rounded or does she remind us of a stock character as well? How much do we know about Dean Thomas even though he does have quite an undeveloped story to him. Well all I know is Dean "seems" like a nice guy and he told us he has muggle parents. Do we know anything about Katie Bell? Angelina? Alicia? Is Seamus now a dynamic character because he questioned Harry and then later believed him and that we know he's Irish? Is Ernie now a dynamic character because he speaks his mind and obsesses about revision times? I think we feel like we know a lot about them based on association.

Crabe and Goyle may seem like stock characters, but because they remind us of other characters we can also deduce some things about them. Obviously they're slow and dim. But so far they've also shown blind loyalty to Draco. And I bet their fathers have quite a bit of authority over them just like Lucius has over Draco.

Draco on the other hand, we know he's not a bad wizard. Lucius only mentioned that Hermione beat him in school, could she be the only one? He's probably got pretty good grades nonetheless. And Draco isn't that bad of a flier is he? He's not as good as Harry, but from the matches we've seen, he's not exactly that bad. And we know he whines a lot, not unlike Dudley. Is he simply a naughty boy or is he already truely evil? I don't see Draco as all that flat of a character because he reminds me of a lot of boys I've read about, seen in movies, or seen/know in real life. That gives him a lot of depth by association. In comparison don't we associate with other characters because we think we know what they're about? Did we, including Harry and Hermione think at one time or another that other house-elves would be like Dobby? Or that Grawp would be like other Giants only to show at the end that he could be more like Hagrid?

I think that if we ourselves are more like Slytherins in real life, we'll be better able to associate with them. A lot of us like picking out heroes and praising them and picking out bad guys and stepping on them but there's more to these bad guys than meets the eyes and there's certainly enough information to deduce some things about them. A lot of people refuse to try understanding Hitler and what may be behind the evil. But the information is there to attempt some sort of comprehension as well.

Sara Elizabeth - Aug 14, 2004 5:38 pm (#549 of 1227)

Solitaire, I agree with you completely. If the world is truely not divided between Death Eaters and the good guys, why don't we know more about the Slyerins? Draco is just convinently the "bad guy." There has to be more to him than that. Especially if he is there for a James/Snape parellel. James and Snape's relationship is not so one-dimensional. Why is Harry and Draco's?

Sara

mike miller - Aug 14, 2004 5:41 pm (#550 of 1227)

Solitaire - You make a very good point in reminding us that it's the perspective we are given that colors our view. If you couple that perspective with Gemini's observation, Slytherin had won the House Cup for 7 straight years, you understand that there may be an oppressed minority within Slytherin House.

When Harry first comes to Hogwarts, the internal politics of Slytherin House was likely dominated by the upper classmen who have that 7 year run as their experience. By the time that group (Flint et al) has left Hogwarts, we have Draco & Company taking over. We simply have not seen enough of Slytherin House to know if there is an under-current of resentment of Malfoy's heavy-handed leadership.

If the DA remains a secret, by invitation only, group we will probably not see many (if any) Slytherin's come over without some kind of tramatic event occurring (i.e., the murder of Pansy's parents). If the DA transforms into a sanctioned study group lead by the new DADA Professor, with say 6 Teacher's Assistants with personal experience, we could see many Slytherin's abandon the Death Nibblers.

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Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 6:30 pm (#551 of 1227)
Edited Aug 14, 2004 7:32 pm

Gemini, I think you are actually making my point. I say that we have BEGUN to know Ernie, Cho, Luna, and Marietta. Are they fully developed? By no means; we do, however, see them beginning to evolve. It is possible that this is all we will ever see, too; I don't know. But it is still only Harry's tight core of friends who have been fleshed out in any real way.

Various adult figures are dynamic and interesting. Harry has seen a lot of characteristics in his father and Sirius--courtesy of Snape's Pensieve--that have unsettled his ideas of who he has believed they were. In them, we see real, loving, but fallible people who make mistakes and do despicable things. Lucius is a diabolical but interesting character, IMO, and Snape is positively riveting--but still JKR does not develop the Slytherin kids. Why not?

Mike makes an important point about Slytherin in his second paragraph: When Harry first comes to Hogwarts, the internal politics of Slytherin House was likely dominated by the upper classmen who have that 7 year run as their experience. From the books, I have gathered that Slytherin has probably dominated Quidditch and other aspects of Hogwarts prior to Harry's arrival.

Perhaps Harry's arrival has heralded a "new age" at Hogwarts when we see the re-emergence of Gryffindor as a force. But as Sarah points out: If the world is truely not divided between Death Eaters and the good guys, why don't we know more about the Slyerins? Draco is just convinently the "bad guy." There has to be more to him than that.

I hope what Mike says at the end of his post comes to pass, and we do begin to see some Slytherins abandon the "death nibblers." Maybe Book 6 will be the "big revelation" about who the Slytherin kids really are.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or "thick"--this is really my perception of these characters. You may see something that I am simply not able to pick up for some reason. I do know we all tend to put things through our own filters.

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 14, 2004 10:36 pm (#552 of 1227)

Solitaire, I'm not so sure that I made your point cause my argument was that Draco as a character is no less dynamic or "fleshed out" as some of the characters you mentioned as being more fleshed out such as Abbot and Marietta. I actually feel I know Draco more than a lot of characters in the DA. I think overall, it's so easy to focus on Draco's showy antics that we miss something about his character. I agree that we'll most likely see and learn more about Slytherins in the upcoming books. I suspect Draco will grow up quite a bit in the next two book as will Harry and perhaps in the end, my suspicion that Draco really is just a naughty boy rather than a "bad guy" will be confirmed. It'll sure be nice if Harry and Draco gain some mutual respect.

Solitaire - Aug 15, 2004 12:01 am (#553 of 1227)

Gemini, I guess this is why there is a forum, eh? We just see these kids differently, I suppose, and that's okay. Everyone brings his or her own interpretations to the books. I do agree about Hannah, which is why I didn't even mention her.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 15, 2004 12:59 am (#554 of 1227)
Edited Aug 15, 2004 2:02 am

But Solitaire, you did mention Hannah: "We see different emerging facets of kids in other houses (Ernie, Hannah, Cho), so why not Slytherin?"

We are talking about the same Hannah here though right? Hannah Abbott?

The only classes that Harry shares with Draco and other Slytherins are Potions and Care for Magical Creatures (Am I missing a class?), Harry, and subsequently we, become so preoccupied with Snape that Harry hardly takes notice of the Slytherins in Potions. In Care for Magical Creatures, Harry is so preoccupied with the success of Hagrid's class, the Slytherin's attempts to sabatoge Hagrid's class, and or the whereabouts of Hagrid that again he hardly has time to mingle with the Slytherins. Definitely not as easy to make friends as in Herbology where you're working side by side. Due to Harry not having too high of an opinion on giggling girls either, we also miss valuable information on some characters but nonetheless clues about many characters that we don't consider to be evolved are there.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 15, 2004 10:16 am (#555 of 1227)

One of the major themes in the series is shattering prejudices and stereotypes (all werewolves, giants, ect are bad). I hope that JKR also shows us and DA that not all Slytherins are bad. Even though Harry and Professor Snape have a mutual dislike Dumbledore completely trusts Professor Snape. There may come a time when Harry trusts a Slytherin At this point the Slytherin characters are stereotypes. LPO

Elanor - Aug 15, 2004 11:58 am (#556 of 1227)

I agree with you Solitaire that, for the moment, Slytherins lack depth : they are stupid, or nasty, or both, or even too stupid to realize they're nasty... Draco may become more interesting though, at least I hope so, as soon as he will truly understand what DE are, that is to say as soon as he will truly understand what death is, and stop being the little nasty rich kid who repeats all Daddy's saying. And I hope we will see other Slytherins, clever and good this time too!

Solitaire - Aug 15, 2004 12:46 pm (#557 of 1227)
Edited Aug 15, 2004 1:47 pm

Mea culpa, I did mention Hannah in my first post on this topic, but I was in error, as she was not the one I was thinking of. My niece will be here any moment. It's about 98 degrees outside, so I'll have her drive over my hands a few times out on the hot driveway. Much more efficient than ironing ... they can be burned AND smashed at the same time.

Anyway, IN MY OPINION (and that's all I can give), the Slytherin kids AT THIS POINT IN THE STORIES have not been given enough face time to be more than one-dimensional baddies. We have no idea whether they are sharp or dull (I'm sorry; I can't think of Goyle or Crabbe as cunning) ... whether they all hate Harry or are just mindlessly following Draco ... whether they sympathize with the DEs or would perhaps like to get out from under the "evil" label. And frankly, at this point in the stories, I STILL don't know enough about Draco to find him much more than a mimic of what he hears at home. Maybe that will turn out to be his main function ... to let us know what is going on "off camera," in his home and among the DEs. I hope not. If he is going to be a villain, he needs to be a good one.

I hope JKR sees fit in book 6 to open up and delineate the characters of some of the Slytherins a bit more--not just Draco but a few of his peers and some of the younger Slytherins we have not really met yet. It's hard for me to care about any of them as they stand now.

Since I haven't seen any information to change my feelings, and I don't believe I can serve this topic any further, this will be my last post until this discussion turns.

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 15, 2004 6:12 pm (#558 of 1227)
Edited Aug 15, 2004 7:23 pm

Solitaire, don't get me wrong. I agree with you that the Slytherins have not been given enough face time but it wasn't for the lack of planning. As we know, JKR end up cutting the scene between Nott and Draco as well as Mafalda and who knows what else, which would have given us a lot more information not only on Draco but on other Slytherin characters outside of Draco's gang. And remember, resourcefulness and determination are also Slytherin traits.

Like reading into the complex character of Snape, I think we're suppose to read between the lines with other Slytherin characters as well. It might not be easy as it seems to grow up in the house of Malfoy, Black, Nott, or Snape. I do believe that to truely understand the complexity of a character and their thinking, one must get a sense of where they come from. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucius had laid a beating on Draco in the past. (I do find it quite cut that Draco wouldn't stop whining about Harry in front of his parents). We've also seen a bit of Snape's childhood. Quite chilling and in a way, explains Snape's meanness. We do have many hints that the Slytherins aren't what they seem to be on the surface and neither are they all the same; although we really haven't been hit on the head with it as you said Solitaire.

The Slytherins seem exactly the type that you hate to play against but would surely be glad to have on your team.

Tom Vitleysa - Aug 15, 2004 6:25 pm (#559 of 1227)

But, at this point, if any Slytherins decide to join the DA, don’t we have to ask ourselves whether they aren’t just picking a side? We’ve learned that the horrible Slytherins are out for themselves and that, in a pinch, they’ll try to join the winning side(and if they picked wrong, they can alway switch sides later). The war has started. Now is the time to pick sides and it only makes sense that some of them would pick Harry and DD. This is even more true for the Death Nibblers, as they’re the ones who are most likely to know of Harry’s face-offs with LV and from that, they may deduce that Voldy just can’t seem to beat Harry, so Harry’s the guy to back. I just think that, at this point, JKR will have to do some pretty impressive character development to make me believe the motives of any new Slytherin members of the DA. Even if they’re loyal right to the end, I’ll wonder if it’s not just a conviction that LV won’t win this one that keeps them that way.

total hatred - Aug 15, 2004 8:17 pm (#560 of 1227)

I agree that there will questions of loyalty if some Slytherins will join the DA. I think Harry will still trust them since his stance was more or less innnocent unless proven guilty. I think the one who will most likely question the loyalty of these members is Hermione especialy when Pansy will decide to join them

Chris. - Aug 15, 2004 8:19 pm (#561 of 1227)

I have to disagree there. I think it would be Ron that would question the loyalty of the DA Slytherins.

Anyone think Blaise Zabini'll join the DA? JKR said we would see him in HbP.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 12:33 am (#562 of 1227)

"I think Harry will still trust them since his stance was more or less innnocent unless proven guilty."

I still think that Harry will try to prove them innocent first.

Perhaps with three drops of Veritaserum and the question 'What is your opinion on Lord Voldemort?' for each Slytherin applicant...

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 16, 2004 1:20 am (#563 of 1227)

I think that if the DA continues to exist and the Slytherins that do join the DA don't have an attitude like Zacharias Smith's, then I too don't think Harry will question their motives as long as their father's aren't known DE members. I don't think Harry is going to make much of a story over Slytherins that we have never heard of. Ron might make a crack at it that's for sure.

Besides, I'm not so sure Voldemort's side would be considered underdogs by anyone, so I don't know how many Slytherins in their right minds would bet on Harry and DD even for a second. I would assume it's natural to not pick sides at all, at least not any sides that would go against Voldemort.

But could you see a teacher-led reformation of the Dueling Club taking over DA matters though?

taniwha - Aug 16, 2004 2:34 pm (#564 of 1227)

Slytherin is just another house

There are untrustworthy people in all houses

Unfortunately we have only seen the Slytherins who are the undesirable students

Annika - Aug 16, 2004 6:32 pm (#565 of 1227)

We have been shown throughout the series that people are not defined by the house in which they are sorted. Cedric is an excellent example of this. Most people contain within their character traits valued by each of the houses. Cedric was a pure blood, (from what I remember, sorry if I am wrong) was brave enough to face a dragon, clever enough to "save" Cho in the lake and humble enough to share the glory of the triwizard cup. Likewise, I doubt that all Slytherins are as one dimentional as the stereotype of their house would lead us to believe.

Looking at Harry as a multidimentional character whose identity is a culmination of the different aspects prized by each house, I agree that he may be suspicious of the Slytherins who chose to join, but I also hope that he will be the first to stand up for them if their motives are brought into question.

Solitaire - Aug 16, 2004 6:47 pm (#566 of 1227)

One would hope so, Annika, for to deny them solely on the basis of their house would be to do exactly what the pure-bloods like the Malfoys have been doing to Harry, his mother, and everyone else who is not pure-blood--discriminating on the basis of social identity rather than the true heart of the individual.

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 17, 2004 6:35 pm (#567 of 1227)

Well said Solitaire, and I really think that's exactly why Harry's opinion of Slytherins are one-sided as of now. Harry is undergoing profound changes in his life and since I highly doubt his mind will end up going to ruin, he'll see the big picture soon. There are more important things *cough* Snape *cough* than schoolboy squabbles.

Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 8:01 pm (#568 of 1227)

I hope so, Gemini. I do worry a bit about Ron when it comes to Slytherins. He hates them way more than Harry, if you ask me. I can't remember which book it was in (since I seem to look in each one about 5 times a day), but he said something like this: "If the Sorting Hat had put me in Slytherin, I would have been on the train back home."

I think Hermione and Harry might be more willing to overlook the Slytherin connection, given the fact that both of them know what it means to feel like outsiders. I'm not sure about Ron, though ... Then again, I suppose it depends on WHICH Slytherins we are talking about.

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 18, 2004 2:45 am (#569 of 1227)

I agree with you Solitaire. I think Ron will be most suspicious and distrusting of the Slytherins since he among the trio does know wizarding families the best and it's possible that many of the Slytherins' families view the Weasleys as blood traitors. But is Ron that strong-willed? If Harry and Hermione thinks the Slytherins are okay I think Ron will at the very least choose to cope with it. It's kind of like Ginny's boyfriends. Ron might hold a grudge but he probably won't do much.

As for Harry and Hermione. I can see Hermione having a problem if it's someone like Millicent Bulstrode, but I can also imagine her saying "well alright" after Harry reminds her that it was she that said Harry should teach anyone who should learn. And these latter words from Hermione will probably end up convincing Harry.

Ron is known for his jokes and I think his comment about taking the train home if he was sorted into Slytherin is at least 3/4 true. I mean we have Fred and George not wanting to admit Ron is their brother already. Can you imagine if he got sorted into Slytherin?

Quidam - Aug 18, 2004 2:50 am (#570 of 1227)

If the DA reforms in book 6 (and I hope it does) I think there will be a few changes to it;

Angelina, Alicia, Fred, George and Lee, who were 7th years in book 5, won't be there.

Cho and Marietta may not come back because of the group seeing Marietta as a traitor and Cho's falling out with Harry.

Seamus may join. He is good friends with Dean, who is already a member. And he appeared to enjoy the one meeting he attended in book 5.

I don't think any Slytherins will join because, not only is Harry anti-Slytherin, all the Slytherins we have met so far are very much Anti-Harry.

Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 9:07 am (#571 of 1227)

LOL I'd forgotten about Fred and George. Poor Ron! No wonder he has an inferiority complex. You are right that he may go along ...

I have to say that right now, Quidam DOES seem to have a point. But it is possible by the start of book 6 that there could be SOME Slytherins who choose NOT to support Voldemort. Frankly, unless this happens, I do not see much of a future for the 4-house system of Hogwarts. If all Slytherins opt to support Voldemort, will there be any choice but wiping them out?

This is why I think that some may actually take a stand on this and be willing to go against Malfoy and his cronies. We now know that a Gryffindor went bad. Why can't a Slytherin "go good"? Oh, I don't know what I'm saying. I think I need some coffee!

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 18, 2004 10:28 am (#572 of 1227)
Edited Aug 18, 2004 11:30 am

Quidam, one minor point Seamus joined the D.A. later in Order of the Phoenix. It is referred to in Chapter 27.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 18, 2004 11:16 am (#573 of 1227)

With so many leaving Hogwarts it will be a good opportunity to bring in more people from lower grade levels. We saw a changing of the guard in OoP. There may be Slytherins we have not met yet that won't be as anti-Harry. LPO

Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 2:00 pm (#574 of 1227)
Edited Aug 18, 2004 3:02 pm

LPO, I think this may well happen, possibly with new kids--and especially with the return of Voldemort and re-emergence of the DEs. Surely, we keep saying, there are some Slytherins who are NOT children of DEs and some Slytherin families who do oppose Voldemort.

Now, here's a weird idea to consider: Do you suppose it would ever happen that NO new kids are sorted into Slytherin in a given year? What if none of the newbies sported that special Slytherin mentality? Has anyone else ever thought about this idea? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

Quibbler Editor In Chief - Aug 18, 2004 2:51 pm (#575 of 1227)

Althogh it is possible Solitaire, I think that it would be EXTREMELY unlikely, due to the simple fact that there are many "Slytherin families" that all go into Slytherin, just like all of the Weasleys went to Gryffindor. A child brought up in an evil house (like Draco Malfoy) would be as excited to be a Slytherin as Harry and Ron were to be in Gryffindor.

Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 3:13 pm (#576 of 1227)

You're probably right, Quibbler. I guess I just wonder ... do you suppose there are ANY non-DE Slytherin families that might not be as eager for their kids to be Slytherin right now as they once were?

And here's another idea to ponder ... Was the Inquisitorial Squad--all Slytherins--a sort of "anti-DA"? Umbridge had obviously figured out from looking at the DA list that there were no Slytherins on it--just Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs, and Gryffindors. Was that group created before or after Dumbledore's exit from Hogwarts? If afterwards, is it possible that Umbridge was giving THEM a bit of coaching to become her Anti-D.A.?

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 18, 2004 5:06 pm (#577 of 1227)

I like the idea of the inquisitional Squad being an anit-DA. Malfoy Sr. was pulling a lot of strings with the Ministry during this time. He may have nudged Umbridge into using Slytherins. LPO

Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 8:56 pm (#578 of 1227)

LPO, I'd never even considered it before I wrote it there. It just sort of jumped out at me as I was thinking about which if any Slytherins might be good candidates for DA in book 6. I began to realize that Umbridge would probably notice the one group missing from the DA list she'd managed to acquire--Slytherins.

And I think you are right ... she would surely have talked to Fudge about the list. He, of course, would have been stupid enough to tell Lucius, and I can see Lucius suggesting not just Slytherins but Draco and Co. to sort of "counteract" the DA. After all, Lucius was still on the Hogwarts Board of Governors at this time, right?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 18, 2004 9:26 pm (#579 of 1227)
Edited Aug 18, 2004 10:48 pm

Solitaire, Lucius Malfoy removed from the Board of Governors of Hogwarts following return of Albus Dumbledore after the defeat of Tom Riddle and the Basalisk.

Although, Malfoy's close connection with Fudge probably allowed him to exercise influence over the composition of the Inquisitorial Squad.

Best Regards, Nathan

Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 9:31 pm (#580 of 1227)

Thanks, Nathan. I wasn't sure. I knew that he was angry that Dumbledore had returned and furious when DD suggested that he had threatened the families of other Board members. I didn't remember him being removed, however. Guess I'll have to reread that part.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 18, 2004 9:57 pm (#581 of 1227)

Solitaire, the mention occurs in the following chapter. Mention is made of how Draco is not struting like he owned the place with Dumbledore's return and this father's removal.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 19, 2004 5:14 am (#582 of 1227)

I think Lucius meddled a lot. Fudge transferred his allegiance from DD to Malfoy. It was critical to Voldemort to discredit DD. Lucius was in the perfect place to do that. Harry had already proven he could escape Voldemort. By putting Umbridge in charge of Hogwarts they could try to neutralize Harry. Prevent him from getting any stronger. They did not expect he would start the DA and become a lot stronger.

Quibbler Editor In Chief - Aug 19, 2004 6:47 am (#583 of 1227)

So do you guys believe that Malfoy will keep some sort of anti-HHarry group like the Inquisitorial Squad together without Umbridge next year? I can't think of what they would do without a teacher on their side, but I bet that Malfoy and the other students with DE parents would do anything they could to work against Harry.

Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2004 7:03 am (#584 of 1227)

Is there any evidence that Alicia Spinnet is special? I only ask because her name is a musical instrument and there seems to be a musical theme to the books. I haven't noticed anything in particular. In fact I hardly remember her.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 19, 2004 7:54 am (#585 of 1227)

Quibbler, the only teacher I could think of would be Snape. It would fit his double agent role. He has always favored Draco. It would be interesting if they could form one on their own. LPO

Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 9:18 am (#586 of 1227)

Quibbler, officially, I think the Inquisitorial Squad will be history, right along its High Inquisitor. Unofficially ... do I think the Death Nibblers (led by Draco) will continue to undermine Harry and the DA kids? You bet!

What will be interesting to watch is whether any Slytherins decide to work against Draco & Co. I hope it happens!

Solitaire

Quibbler Editor In Chief - Aug 19, 2004 10:09 am (#587 of 1227)

Great though Solitaire...I hope that happens too! I mean ALL Slytherins can't be pro-Death Eater and completely evil, can they? Just like all Gryffindors aren't perfectly good, I doubt that all of the Slytherins are 100% bad.

Prefect Marcus - Aug 19, 2004 10:11 am (#588 of 1227)

Guys, the first Slytherin to cross over will be Pansy Parkinson.

Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 12:44 pm (#589 of 1227)

I'm curious, Marcus ... why do you suspect it will be Pansy? I'm not disputing it; I'm just curious. **thinks maybe Marcus has a crush on Pansy**

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 2:09 pm (#590 of 1227)

Am glad you beat me to that question Soli... :-)

Prefect Marcus - Aug 19, 2004 2:16 pm (#591 of 1227)
Edited by Aug 19, 2004 3:17 pm

Solitaire - I'm curious, Marcus ... why do you suspect it will be Pansy?

Because I think Rowling is setting her up for redemption.

All the reasons are much too long for here and have been covered elsewhere. However, to give you the 7 knut version, it is because she has already started to crossover. There is evidence that she began to thaw in OoP after the Quibbler article.

It is also necessary for her to thaw if the H/P 'ship has any hope of sailing. She has a lot of ground to make up, plus she has to do something to make her worthy of the hero. Reforming against massive peer pressure would fit the bill nicely.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 2:20 pm (#592 of 1227)

Thank you for clairifying that, makes sense to me now.

And making sense to me takes some doing! :-)

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 19, 2004 2:33 pm (#593 of 1227)
Edited Aug 19, 2004 3:37 pm

Of the that are possible candidates to join the D.A. there are three possibilities that I see.

Possibility 1: Blaise Zabini, is a wild card about whom very little is known. He has no known connections to Death Eaters. This possibility has become more likely since, J.K. Rowling said that readers would be seeing more of him.

Possibility 2: Pansy Parkinson the reasons I see see this as possibility have been summarized above by Prefect Marcus.

Possibility 3: Theodore Nott, the fact that his Father was left by Malfoy even though he was injured and incapacitated might be enough to drive Theodore to join the D.A.

Possibility 4: Montague, this is speculation based on Romeo and Juliet Perhaps, Montague will put aside his prejudices against Non-Slytherins and demonstrate that in order for humankind to survive tolerance and acceptance of others is necessary.

Best Regards, Nathan

Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 5:57 pm (#594 of 1227)

Actually, I like the Montague theory, Nathan! If names truly do mean something, maybe it is a hint. As for Pansy Parkinson ... I'm assuming you must be talking about a 'ship thread. I hate those and never read them. Sorry if that offends anyone.

Just a bizarre little question ... how many P.P. characters are there in these books? Parvati Patil, Padma Patil, Peter Pettigrew, Pansy Parkinson ... and doesn't the Dud have a P.P. friend? JKR must have a thing for that letter combination ... which bodes well for Pansy Potter, I guess. Ugh! The mind boggles!

Frankly, I am hoping it is one of the other Slytherins.

Solitaire

Leila 2X4B - Aug 19, 2004 8:00 pm (#595 of 1227)
Edited Aug 19, 2004 9:00 pm

Yes, Dudders' friend is named Piers Polkiss.

Leila

Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 8:27 pm (#596 of 1227)

Of course, Sleeping Beauty! However could I have forgotten poor Piers?

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 19, 2004 9:29 pm (#597 of 1227)
Edited Aug 19, 2004 10:29 pm

Solitaire, what I was referring to regarding Pansy Parkinson is her ever so subtle shift in attitude toward Harry in OotP after the formation of the Inquistorial Squad

Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 9:35 pm (#598 of 1227)

I honestly don't remember a change, Nathan. I keep trying to reread Phoenix, but somehow, I wind up spending all my reading time HERE! heeeeee I'll try to reread that section tonight, however, and see if I concur ... assuming I get away from the computer before I fall asleep on the keyboard. Smile

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 9, 2004 3:19 pm (#599 of 1227)

A new question is possible to draw a parallel between Dumbledore's Army and other well known literary groups such as the Baker Street Irregulars and hero groups from comic books such as the Teen Titans.

Solitaire - Sep 9, 2004 3:59 pm (#600 of 1227)

I don't know who the Teen Titans are, but the comparison with the Baker Street Irregulars is interesting. The critical difference I see (if I'm understanding correctly) would have to be that the Irregulars are pretty much "invisible"; they are sort of "nameless nobodies" who can move about with relative impunity because they are completely inconspicuous.

This is probably not true of Harry OR the Weasley kids in the WW world. The other DA kids might be able to move around more easily without being noticed, but Harry and the red-headed Weasleys would stand out like neon lights--unless this is where we discover that some of them are metamorphmagi.

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 9, 2004 6:16 pm (#601 of 1227)

Solitaire, the analogy to the Teen Titans was not as on point as I would have liked. The Teen Titans are a group of superheroes created by Detective Comics in the 1980's.

Leila 2X4B - Sep 9, 2004 6:19 pm (#602 of 1227)

I am with you on that Nathan. Teen Titans is a good analogy.

Leila

The giant squid - Sep 10, 2004 2:30 am (#603 of 1227)
Edited Sep 10, 2004 3:30 am

The Teen Titans analogy is actually rather good. For those who don't know, the Teen Titans was a superhero group formed of the sidekicks of popular comic book heroes (Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Flash and Aquaman). They often ran up against the "you can't do it, you're just kids" thing...sound familiar?

Oh, and Nathan? The Teen Titans were originally formed in the mid '60's. The New Teen Titans revival was in the '80's. But thanks for playing.

--Mike
not just a Harry Potter geek, but also a comics geek...be afraid.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 10, 2004 9:24 am (#604 of 1227)
Edited Sep 10, 2004 10:27 am

There is another group of comic book heroes that might be analogous to Dumbledore's Army. I have often thought that the X-Men.

The X-Men series was first created by Marvel Comics in 1963. The basic premise is that Dr. Charles Xavier created a school for students who possessed extraordinary powers such as telepathy, and teleknesis. These students used their powers to combat evil and protect humanity.

A parallel can be drawn between Professor Xavier and Albus Dumbledore in that they both created or assisted in the creation of organizations to combat evil.

Leila 2X4B - Sep 12, 2004 5:26 pm (#605 of 1227)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 6:26 pm

And if you want to be really confused, the time-travel in X-men is just as confusing as it is in HP world. The Cable story line is enough to give anyone a headache.

Mike, a comic geek you may be, but can you top my boyfriend, the live action comic-book guy?

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2004 6:15 pm (#606 of 1227)

Sleeping Beauty I agree that is why limited my reading to the original series. But, I digress. That being said will the dueling club begun in Chamber of Secrets be officially incorporated as part of the D.A. or will it come into existence as a separate club.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 6:30 pm (#607 of 1227)

Incorporated gets my vote, officially or not. Didn't the first DA meeting/class start out with Expelliarmus, the disarming spell?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 6:47 pm (#608 of 1227)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 7:49 pm

Ok, now on with part two of my thought, sorry, I was interrupted.
"Both of them swung their wands above their heads and pointed them at their opponent; Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: He flew backward off the stage, smashed into the wall, and slid down it to sprawl on the floor." Hmm, effectively disarmed.
Then at the first DA meeting..."Right, said Harry, when she had sat down again, "shall we get practising then? I was thinking, the first thing we should do is Expelliarmus, you know, the Disarming Charm. I know it's pretty basic but I've found it really useful -" "Oh, please," said Zacharias Smith, rolling his eyes and folding his arms. "I don't think Expelliarmus is exactly going to help us against You-Know-Who, do you?" "I've used it against him," said Harry quietly. "It saved my life in June."
Since the first spell Harry taught them was Expelliarmus, and told them why, which is more than he's told most of the time. I'd say they are already incorporated, integrated even.

Pam

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2004 7:11 pm (#609 of 1227)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 8:12 pm

Pam, since your thought was interrupted. I removed my intervening post. Yes, that quotation lends itself to integration.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 7:14 pm (#610 of 1227)

Thank you, I am truly sorry for the interuption. Life happen's. Of course, sometimes my thoughts skip a beat or two, but not that time.
:-)

The giant squid - Sep 13, 2004 12:21 am (#611 of 1227)

Mike, a comic geek you may be, but can you top my boyfriend, the live action comic-book guy? --Sleeping Beauty

No, that last time I did any live-action comic book stuff was when I was 12 & had a towel tied around my neck like a cape.

I'm not sure about the dueling club existing seperately or as part of the DA. I suppose you could say that by practicing various charms on each other the DA have been "dueling" from the get-go. I think the dueling club itself pretty much fizzled out after Harry's parselmouth incident and the fistfight between Hermione & Millicent...have we heard any mention of it since CoS?

--Mike

Magical Max – Sep 13, 2004 2:45 am (#612 of 1227)
Edited Sep 13, 2004 3:47 am

I tend to think DD would put the brakes on the Duelling Club as ;

1. It was Lockhart's idea to begin with.

2. With the new level of animosity between Harry and Malfoy, letting those two have a duel would be asking for trouble. BIG trouble.

Mynn - Sep 14, 2004 8:27 am (#613 of 1227)

With the new level of animosity between Harry and Malfoy, letting those two have a duel would be asking for trouble. BIG trouble.

Yes, but it would be quite amusing, especially because I think Harry is the better wizard and I believe Malfoy would come out worse off and the slimy git deserves anything he gets.

Maybe Harry would turn Malfoy into a little white Ferret Permantly.

Solitaire - Sep 14, 2004 1:20 pm (#614 of 1227)

LOL Mynn! As a fan, I like the way you think. As a teacher, I must pretend to be neutral. **putting on shocked face** I can't believe you said that! It's not NICE to turn Malfoy into a ferret. Well, maybe just a baby ferret.

total hatred - Sep 17, 2004 3:10 pm (#615 of 1227)

Maybe Buckbeak attacked Draco because he looks like a ferret. I think ferrets are Buckbeak favorite food.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 17, 2004 5:56 pm (#616 of 1227)

Great idea Total. I never made that connection!

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 17, 2004 6:04 pm (#617 of 1227)

Total take 10 points thaat is brilliant.

therealscabbers - Sep 20, 2004 8:47 am (#618 of 1227)
Edited Sep 20, 2004 9:49 am

phew it has taken me about a week to get through all these posts!! I do like to read everything before I comment! so my comment

the latest discussion, the dueling club has indeed not been mentioned since the snake incident so I dont think they will be merged as there is nothing to merge DA with. Also the DA do more than duel, patronus is not a move used in dueling unless you happened to be dueling with a dementor!!

I too would like to see the DA continue in HBP but do not see it linking with the order officially, though with input from members through HRH, in obvious ways such as Lupin in teaching Harry the patronus (although this was 2 years before) to more subtle ways like the book Lupin and Sirius bought Harry for Christmas.

As for the purpose of the group, as far as most of the members are concerned it is merely a forum in which to learn defensive spells, each member having their own reason for wanting such, the main two are: - pass exams, all the 5th years and maybe 7th years especially, but all years have to sit DADA exams at the end of the year.

- out of personal experience of Voldie especially Ginny and the other Weaslys, Susan Bones, Hermione and of course Harry

Most did not think they would actually be putting them into practice, much like I have just done a self defense course but am not intending to go and ask a random guy to try and attack me or indeed try and attack a random guy.

But, when the few of Harry's closest friends who all but one (that we know of) have had personal experience of what Voldie and his mates can do realise that he is holding someone captive and their Leader is planning on rescuing him realise that if Harry were to go alone he would be toast and so insist they go along, remember their leader Harry REALLY DID NOT WANT THEM TO GO, but he couldn't stop them and didnt feel he had enough time to argue as Sirius was in danger.

Neville has been quoted as saying that that was what it was all about - fighting the DE's but that may have been what it was about o HIM but not to the others.

Therefore it was a study group, not a paramilitary or terrorist group as has been suggested, maybe a little subversive within the school environment but not with any ill attempt and certainly not really an army as has been said, that was an in joke.

SO, if it does indeed continue I think that its official remit would be a study group and a "defense Association" but the core group will know that if a battle comes to them they will fight it, and since the battle tends to come to harry and they are with harry they will fight!! but not all of them and it will not be the purpose of the group as a whole!

Ok as for unity of the houses yep defiantly see some slyths join up - my money is on Blaise Zabini - who imo is the thestral guy he is in Harry's year after all!

Also just an end note a lot has been said on this thread about the "elected government" I dont remember any talk of elections rather the minister of magic is appointed not elected, the people wanted DD as mom but he didnt want it, barty crouch applied for the job but didnt get it and Fudge was appointed! I may have missed something and feel free to correct me if I have

mike miller - Sep 20, 2004 11:38 am (#619 of 1227)

As far as the first Slytherin to come over to the DA, my money's on Theodore Nott. Following Voldemort has cost his family his mother (my speculation here, either directly or indirectly) and now quite possibly his father. Young Teddy is learning first hand the price of following Voldemort. We don't have a history of Nott causing problems for HRH (taunting or potentially mailing qustionable substances); and, based on additional data from JKR's website he's bright enough to see the error of his family's ways. I could see Nott taking on the Snape role for his generation.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 20, 2004 12:38 pm (#620 of 1227)

It's possible.

Teddy has reason to hate both the DA (for injuring his father) and Luci (for giving the order to leave his father behind).

For that reason, he strikes me as a sort of neutral character... but in the conflict between Harry and Voldie, he'll undoubtedly take a side to avoid getting crushed between them.

total hatred - Sep 22, 2004 3:13 pm (#621 of 1227)

I believe Pansy will be the one of first ones to join. Either way, she has nothing to lose if she join except for the fact that the Death Nibblers will be pissed off at her.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 22, 2004 3:28 pm (#622 of 1227)

I'm not sure that the DA will let Pansy in at first. She's flown with the crows, so I think that the DA will shoot her for a crow.

total hatred - Sep 22, 2004 3:36 pm (#623 of 1227)

But what if Dumbledore intervened saying that it is for the good of the school that we allow our Slytherin "friends" to join us. It will give them the inside look why the group is founded and show them the evils of the Voldie and company

Murphy - Sep 22, 2004 5:08 pm (#624 of 1227)

wouldn't it just suck if harry beats lord voldemort, but suffers so much before he does (ie, losing loved ones like sirius, feeling isolated like end of OtP, etc) that he ends up turning evil?

like at the end of OotP, when he tells DD he wishes he didn't feel, that he could be numb and he hated his heart, etc--assuming harry will lose more of his loved ones (lupin, probably one of the weasleys, maybe ron/hermione, etc), and go through some major hardships and pain in the last two books, does anyone else think it's possible he beats LV only to kind of become LV himself? this may be kind of wacky, but i just got this premonition.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 22, 2004 6:34 pm (#625 of 1227)
Edited Sep 22, 2004 7:36 pm

And you are not alone, Murphy.

I, too, suspect that Harry will try so hard to defeat evil that he will ultimately become evil.

Assuming, of course, that his friends let him. But they all might already be dead by then...

Phoenix song - Sep 22, 2004 6:41 pm (#626 of 1227)
Edited Sep 22, 2004 7:41 pm

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! I can't accept that Harry would ever turn evil! I can see that he will be tempted along the way, but he won't succumb. (Do I seem a little panicky? LOL!)

I have wondered if the stress of saving the world will be too much for him, though. It would be truly sad, but I could see the world being too painful for Harry after the end of the war. I can see how he would be like Frodo, and walk through the veil to meet Sirius and his parents. Leaving Hermione and Ron to continue and raise their children just as Sam and Rose did at the end of LOTR.

Gee, I'm going to wind up crying!

Anyway, I see several possibilities for the first Slytherin to join the DA. It could be the infamous vanishing Blaise Zabini, Nott, or possibly Pansy. I do think that it will be important that the DA has at least one member of the Slytherin house. The sorting house reminded them at the beginning of year 5 that they must all unite or crumble from within.

Barbie

sere35 - Sep 22, 2004 7:39 pm (#627 of 1227)

I have always been a big supporter of the Harry turns evil idea. That just seems the perfect ending to me.

Phoenix song - Sep 22, 2004 7:50 pm (#628 of 1227)
Edited Sep 22, 2004 8:51 pm

sere35: "I have always been a big supporter of the Harry turns evil idea. That just seems the perfect ending to me."

Ouch! Right little ray of sunshine!

Why do you think that this would be the perfect ending? I think that the perfect ending would be: for all of the houses to unite under the banner of the DA; all creatures to be represented in the OoP; the dementors melt away like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz; all DE's to be permanently jailed in Azkaban; Peter to "finish" off Voldemort; and everybody good, decent and kind to live happily ever after. (And no, I'm not telling my opinions about the 'ships that will result on this thread!)

For Harry to turn to evil would only perpetuate the cycle of hate, death, violence and evil that his parents and Sirius have already died to extinguish. For Harry to become evil would be an even worse ending, in my own personal opinion, than for Harry to die while fighting evil. I know that this seems harsh, but I would rather Harry die for what's good than to live as a death eater.

Barbie

Solitaire - Sep 22, 2004 8:57 pm (#629 of 1227)

I'm with you, Phoenix song. There isn't much point to the story if Harry turns evil. I doubt it will be a happy ending with a big red and gold Gryffindor bow on it. I expect something a bit more ambivalent. I do think many of those Harry loves will die in the War--likely candidates being Remus (I'm sorry to say), Hermione, and more than one Weasley--and I am sure there will be times when Harry wishes he'd stayed in the dull, boring Muggle existence with the Dursleys. At leat he could have walked away from it at age 18, or whenever the legal age is.

He may even attempt to just turn and walk away from it all, letting the chips fall where they will. We have already seen indications in earlier books that he was prepared to do just this. But he knows his destiny, and I believe he is too honorable to run out on it. I believe his "saving people thing" will kick in before that happens. Harry knows at this point that he is pretty much the only thing between a reasonably peaceful existence in the WW and total control and devastation by Voldemort. What's more, I think he will find out he is the only hope for even more things he would rather not know about. For him to just give up would be to put control into Voldemort's hands. I don't see it happening.

In fact, I believe that, if he does live through the war, he will be so sick of death and loss that he may turn his back on the Wizarding World for a time. I could see it happening. Then again, the only happiness he has ever known--even though it has come with great pain--has been in the WW. I do not think that can be discounted.

I feel Harry will vanquish Voldemort, only to see (if he lives) a new evil entity begin to gather and start the process again ... because there will always be those who seek absolute power. After all, Grindelwald was vanquished--and I'm sure many thought that was it--but that did not stop the evil of Voldemort, did it?

Solitaire

Daioma Dumbledore - Sep 24, 2004 5:15 am (#630 of 1227)

I totally agree with you both solitaire & phoenix song, I would hate for the ending to be something as dreadful as Harry turning evil, and although JK is constantly surprising us, I doubt very much she would do something quite so awful. I also agree that if Harry defeats Voldemort there will be someone waiting in the wings to take his place, I just hope Harry gets a little bit of peace and happiness before they show their face. Amber

Magical Max - Sep 24, 2004 5:19 am (#631 of 1227)

Sort of the " Legend of Harry Potter" When evil threatens the WW again in the distant future, wizards will talk of "Harry Potter" returning to help them in the battle against the dark.

therealscabbers - Sep 24, 2004 5:39 am (#632 of 1227)

Maybe soon after the vanquishment of Voldie Hermione and Ron will marry and have a child a prophecy will be made that this child will have the power to vanquish..... at it will all start again!!

Daioma Dumbledore - Sep 24, 2004 5:42 am (#633 of 1227)

Exactly! And that would mean we could have more books, and find out what Harry does once he has completed school & defeated Voldemort. :-)

Ahhhh, and I'd be very happy with that, because as with most stories that I enjoy (anything, movies, books whatever) I never what them to end, I want to know what happens in their life after. And that is especially the case with Harry

therealscabbers - Sep 24, 2004 5:45 am (#634 of 1227)

Well the story would begin again with a new famous wizard and HArroy would take on DD's mantle for the new hero on the block!

Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 24, 2004 8:11 pm (#635 of 1227)

therealscabbers I hope that doesn't mean the end of DD! I think the DA will really turn into an elite fighting force for Harry. The Order is one for DD. This is a changing of the guard. I really hope Harry does not turn evil. LPO

total hatred - Sep 25, 2004 1:50 am (#636 of 1227)

The possibility of Harry turning evil is minimal but if ever he were to turn evil, he is definitely possesed by Voldie. As long as Hermione is around, Harry will not succumb to darkness

Tomoé - Sep 26, 2004 8:58 pm (#637 of 1227)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 10:00 pm

Will Harry turn evil? I don't think so. He know first hand what suffering means and he don't wish it for anyone, he did feel sorry for Snape. Harry is stronger than that.

Will Harry end up like Frodo? He doesn't have the right character for that. Harry is no melancholic, if he was, he would have already give up hope. Harry's a fighter, a survivor, if he live pass the end of Who-most-not-be-named, he'll be free for the very first time of his live, free to do whatever he want. How can he feel depressive?

Who will be the first Slytherin to become member of the DA? I put my money on Blaise Zabini, who I believe is the Mystery Slytherin.

Why wasn't Padma Patil in the DA compartment? there wasn't enough room left. There are six place in a compartment, Ernie, Justin, Hannah and Susan had to be together, Corner was likely with Cho, leaving Terry and Anthony to fill the two other places. Anyway, Padma seems to be more a friend of Luna, Cho or Parvati than Michael's gang, she did came to the Hog's head with the other Ravenclaw girls + Parvati.

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 9:57 pm (#638 of 1227)

Has anyone else noticed--or am I imagining things--that people Harry meets or who come to his aid on the train seem to play important roles later on in the year? On his first trip on the Hogwarts Express, Harry meets Ron and Hermione, who become his closest friends during his first year at Hogwarts. He also meets the Weasley twins, who become sort of "surrogate brothers."

Harry does not ride the train his second year--thanks to Dobby--but he and Ron follow it. They have a wild and dangerous ride in the Anglia, ending in the incident with the Whomping Willow. That trip seems to foreshadow several dangerous adventures that year, in which Ron is Harry's major "partner in crime."

On the trip to school in PoA, Remus comes to Harry's aid in the Dementor encounter--becoming his mentor and close friend at school, helping him get to know his godfather, and further opening up Peter's role in James and Lily's deaths. Crookshanks also proves to be a helper in unmasking Wormtail.

Harry is forced to sit with Ginny, Luna and Neville on the way to school at the beginning of Book 5--since Ron and Hermione are in the Prefects compartment--and who accompanies the trio to the DoM? Ginny, Luna and Neville!

This makes me wonder if the six DA members who come to Harry's rescue on the way home in Book 5 will move into closer friendships with Harry and the rest of the Gryffindors & Luna in book 6.

Just a fleeting idea ... I'm not yet sure how book 4 connects yet.

Solitaire

haymoni - Sep 27, 2004 5:38 am (#639 of 1227)

In Book 4 - Malfoy taunts Ron about the special thing that will happen at Hogwarts that year.

Harry, of course, ends up participating in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.

You may have something there, Solitare.

I will take extra care in reading the train scene in Book 6.

Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 6:18 am (#640 of 1227)

Haymoni, I did remember Ron getting ticked at Malfoy and slamming the compartment door so hard it shattered. Hermione had to repair it. I'm trying to work out if there is a parallel there somewhere. I remember that Ron and Harry's friendship suffered quite a lot during year four, due to Harry's participation in the tournament--and Hermione had some part in "repairing" it--or trying--didn't she?

But I'm looking for a bit more of a connection. Perhaps someone else can work this out, if there is, in fact, something to it. It probably seems too obvious to compare Malfoy's attempt to reveal/conceal information with Barty Jr.'s revealing/concealing.

I'm wondering if there is a connection between Ron's little figure of Krum and Krum losing some of his "stature" in Ron's eyes due to his relationship with Hermione? Again, I'm just reaching ...

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Sep 27, 2004 8:32 am (#641 of 1227)

Solitaire, I think that you are right. Somebody, perhaps on another thread, has pointed out that the people who ride to Hogwarts are Harry's core group. These now include Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, Luna and Lupin. I'm not sure what to make of this group. 2 groups of three, boys and girls, with Lupin as the head? Three couples? Three seems to be important but I have no idea how it applies here.

TomProffitt - Sep 27, 2004 1:13 pm (#642 of 1227)
Edited Sep 27, 2004 2:20 pm

That was me way be back in post #466, this thread.

EDIT: One of my better observations I think.

EDIT: Nope, wrong post number, I'll look some more. Try this, TomProffitt "Luna Lovegood" 8/6/04 9:58am

Steve Newton - Sep 27, 2004 2:23 pm (#643 of 1227)

Tom, sorry that I didn't remember your name. But it was a great catch. Do you have any thoughts on what this might mean?

TomProffitt - Sep 27, 2004 2:38 pm (#644 of 1227)

Jo is meticulous in her writing. Things don't happen until and unless they have been properly set up.

For example, in GoF at the Wizarding World Cup we learn about Krum, Winky, a multitude of clues about an invisible Barty, Death Eaters, port keys, Barty Crouch, Sr, Ludo Bagman, etc.

Jo always prepares her novels by setting all the elements of the plot on the stage in the first few chapters. Always. If we don't get to see it directly we'll get evidence from another source. e.g. witnessing Arthur's summons to aid Moody, knowing McGonagall had something special to talk to Hermione about prior to PoA.

The train compartment tells you who the people closest to Harry at Hogwarts are. There is a difference between those who make the whole trip with him, those who ride part way, and those who just drop in.

(By the way Pansy has never dropped by)

The compartment is specific to each book in its foreshadowing on the trip out, and in the denouement on the way back. It is Jo's way of showing the reader who is significant in Harry's life and who are "stock" characters. Ron always rides with Harry, he is Harry's most important friend. Neville always drops by, he is very significant in Harry's life. Malfoy always drops in, he is Harry's character foil. Cho dropped in when she was important in Harry's life, don't look for her to show again. Pansy Parkinson never comes by, she's a filler character in a minor role. Eloise Midgen never stops in (not even somewhere close to the train like Pansy), she's a Mark Evans.

If you want to know who's important in the HBP just watch that first train ride.

Prefect Marcus - Sep 27, 2004 3:03 pm (#645 of 1227)
Edited by Sep 27, 2004 4:06 pm

(By the way Pansy has never dropped by)

Yet...

Pansy Parkinson never comes by, she's a filler character in a minor role

So far... Are you prepared to state catagorically that Pansy will never have a major role? Remember, this is Rowling we are talking about. She loves sprinkling seemingly insignificant, minor characters like Scabbers the rat in early who suddenly take on major importance much later on. Pansy was introduced in Book #1. Are you prepare to take the position that Rowling has "shot her bolt" of seemingly minor details from Book #1 that become major elements later in the series?

If you want to know who's important in the HBP just watch that first train ride.

So I guess that precludes Snape from being important in any of the books? :-) Good point, nonetheless

EDIT: As you said, Cho never stopped by until OoP. So we shall see if Pansy stops by at the start of HBP.

TomProffitt - Sep 27, 2004 3:20 pm (#646 of 1227)
Edited Sep 27, 2004 4:21 pm

I was just twinking you Marcus, I concur with your argument. Your theory is quite possible, I merely find it unlikely.

As to Snape being important, perhaps I should have specified students. Lupin seems to have been an exception.

Prefect Marcus - Sep 27, 2004 3:56 pm (#647 of 1227)
Edited by Sep 27, 2004 4:56 pm

Actually, Tom, you do have a point. If Pansy is going to become important in HBP, I fully expect her to show up in the compartment.

Of course, this may be the year that Harry doesn't take the Hogwarts Express to school. It would be very dangerous. Not only for him, but for the others,as well. I don't think Voldemort would think twice about wiping out an entire trainload of kids just to get the one person who has the power to vanquish him.

TomProffitt - Sep 27, 2004 4:26 pm (#648 of 1227)

You've got a point about the safety of the train, Marcus.

And if Pansy spends time in the compartment I'll by passage on the ship.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 27, 2004 5:50 pm (#649 of 1227)

"Of course, this may be the year that Harry doesn't take the Hogwarts Express to school. It would be very dangerous."

Can you say "Flying motorbike"?

Of course, Harry would have to learn to operate the thing and keep it invisible, but if Ron could drive a car at 12, I would think that Harry could drive one at 16...

Tomoé - Sep 27, 2004 5:59 pm (#650 of 1227)

Pansy may not have been seen in Harry's compartment, but they did mention her name in OoP, and in fact she had more time she ever did in OoP, so did Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott and Anthony Goldstein. Not Padma Patil though, I really think the Yule Ball was her one chapter of glory, but her implication in the DA as a prefect was more important to the plot than being Ron's dance partner.

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Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:55 pm

Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 6:29 pm (#651 of 1227)
Edited Sep 27, 2004 7:31 pm

I believe Tomoé is correct that Pansy IS mentioned on the train. Didn't Hermione say something like "that complete cow Pansy Parkinson is the Slytherin prefect," or something like that?

You know, when I think of it, the train ride home has been pretty eventful the past two books, too--for Malfoy & Co. At the end of GoF, they dropped by to insult the Weasleys and threaten Harry ... only to be hexed by the Trio and the twins. They seemed to fare even worse on the ride home in OotP, after they failed in their attempt to ambush Harry on the train.

You are correct, Tom, that things really are foreshadowed when we learn something new (portkeys, dementors, priori incantatem, dark mark, etc.) or meet someone new (Cedric, Winky, Remus, Luna, etc.) prior to the actual arrival at Hogwarts. I didn't realize this had been addressed already, so thanks for the update.

Marcus, I think you bring up an interesting point about the train. With all of the terrorist activity in the Real World--specifically the train attack in Spain--I suppose it is possible that JKR could work something similar into her books. They do tend to reflect a lot of what is happening around us.

BTW, when will the Trio be old enough to apparate? If they get their apparating license while they still attend Hogwarts (the twins did), wouldn't it be just as easy to apparate to Hogsmead and go to school from there? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

Tomoé - Sep 27, 2004 6:43 pm (#652 of 1227)

It seems like they can take the apparating test at the age of 17, which mean in Mars book 6 for Ron, August book 7 for Harry and September book 7 for Hermione.

Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 7:17 pm (#653 of 1227)
Edited Sep 27, 2004 8:18 pm

Thanks, Tomoé.

It does give one pause ... With the exception of being prefect, this will be the first time Ron has been able to do something IMPORTANT before Harry is able to do it. Harry flew and got great brooms first ... played Quidditch first ... ran away from home and stayed alone first (the Knight Bus incident) ... There are other "firsts" for Harry, but I am talking about things Ron might actually have wanted to do, too.

I can see this apparating business being the "vehicle," so to speak, for Ron getting into a jam. If Ron were to have a falling-out with Harry or Hermione, and they were in a place where Ron COULD apparate away from the other two, I can see him being abducted--or perhaps leaving Harry and/or Hermione in a vulnerable place where they could be harmed in some way. It's just a thought ... but it is an important "rite of passage" in the Wizarding World, and I can see it being used in the same way we might use a serious car accident or something for Muggles.

Solitaire

Edit: Please ... no dung bombs Sad

**ducking**

Phoenix song - Sep 27, 2004 8:50 pm (#654 of 1227)

There is another first that Harry did before Ron. Harry kissed first. (Of course, that is up for debate, as 'they' could be keeping it secret from Harry.)

I think that the train observations were right on target. I have noticed before that what happens on the train both ways is very significant to setting the tone of the books. They seem to act as the literal "book ends" of the book. (You know, those little metal things that the library uses at each end of a book shelf to keep the books together.) The ride to Hogwarts introduces important new characters, conflicts, or mysteries. The ride back to King's Cross seems to be the summation of the book. It's cheering to note that the last two rides back have shown Harry and the DA as ending on top of the war with the "evil" Slytherins. (Not that I believe that all Slytherins are evil!)

Barbie

Tomoé - Sep 27, 2004 9:06 pm (#655 of 1227)

There's also the possibility that you can't take apparating test while at school and you have to wait until summer. Hermione wouldn't be able to learn until summer of book 8 (which doesn't seems likely).

therealscabbers - Sep 28, 2004 3:05 am (#656 of 1227)

yeah that is a point the twins birthday is in April and they didnt take their apparition tests until the summer, so maybe Harry and Ron will do it together in the beginning of book 6. Hermione could always be allowed to take it early because of her aptitude for magic and her important role in the war?

Magical Max - Sep 28, 2004 3:52 am (#657 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 4:52 am

I see no reason why the Order couldn't arrange a crash course over the summer break in apparating. Given that the train would be no longer safe from attack. Nor would the Knight Bus for that matter.

I can imagine Fred and George giving Ron loads of advice in the hopes they make him nervous enough to lose control and "splinch" himself.

Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 6:32 am (#658 of 1227)

First, I am not sure the Order has the authority to authorize "crash courses" in anything. The Ministry of Magic and Hogwarts do, but I'm not sure if they would or not. Quite honestly, I kind of wonder how the Wizarding World would react to Harry or anyone else accidentally apparating to escape mortal peril. He was almost drummed out of the Wizarding World for casting a Patronus charm to save himself and Dudley from being soul-sucked. How do you think they would take it if he apparated out of a life-and-death situation?

After the way Fudge behaved, I'm surprised Harry wasn't given a fine or something for unauthorized use of the trophy portkey to take himself and Cedric from the graveyard back to Hogwarts. If he were to apparate or disapparate underage, Fudge would probably have a full-blown Wizard meltdown.

As far as the Slytherins go, it only seems to be Draco & the two Gargoyles who ever get into trouble on the train--and that is because they always go looking for it. No one ever seeks them out to mess with them. The other kids seem happily occupied with their own business elsewhere on the train.

I agree, Tomoé, that a book 8 seems far less than likely--unless it is some sort of epilogue or "wrap-up" that takes place in the characters' distant futures, when they are as old as Dumbledore (assuming any are left standing after book 7). I think there may be some symbolic meaning to the number 7, and that is why there are 7 books in the series. Perhaps it is connected to something in the alchemy thing. I'll have to ask over there.

Solitaire

Daioma Dumbledore - Sep 28, 2004 6:44 am (#659 of 1227)

Solitaire, Fudge & the MoM reacted to Harry's Patronus the way they did because they were in denial about the Big V being back and wanted to get rid of Harry & Dumbledore as quickly as they could.

Assuming the things we've heard so far are correct, Fudge will no longer be the Minister in book 6, so maybe, just maybe, their tests could be fast tracked if it meant that HRH are not put in danger whilst travelling.

Tomoé - Sep 28, 2004 6:58 am (#660 of 1227)

I think Fudge didn't inquire on the portkey because it open the "What happen to Harry and Cedric that night" can of worm. The less it's mentionned the better for the "Voldemort is not back" fantasy.

Now, about the apparating licences, if I were the Minister for Magic, I would made a exeption and make sure Harry learn to apparate, even if he's only 16. They all know he #1 on Voldemort "to kill" list, but I don't think I would give the same favour to Hermione and Ron (supposing I'm just the MoM, not a reader of the books who suddently became a character of the book). Or maybe a special permission to do portkey whenever he feel the need, as long as he doesn't abuse it. Anyway, there will always be a Auror near by.

therealscabbers - Sep 28, 2004 7:23 am (#661 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 8:24 am

Solitaire I think the significance of 7 books is that there are 7 school years! nothing more to it than that!

I dont think any of the trio will be apperating in book 6, maybe all in book 7 but only if Hermione is given permission

Chemyst - Sep 28, 2004 12:15 pm (#662 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 1:17 pm

I am not sure the Order **has the authority** to authorize "crash courses" in anything... That is a rather interesting concept – I've always assumed that the Order was autonomous. I still do.

I agree with Tomoé about the "no fine" reason; they'd have had to admit he was at the graveyard.

Hermione could still apparate by the end of Book 7 if she takes her test over Christmas break.

TomProffitt - Sep 28, 2004 1:21 pm (#663 of 1227)

You reckon Madam Hooch teaches apparition to sixth years?

Mrs Brisbee - Sep 28, 2004 6:41 pm (#664 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 7:42 pm

I always thought Fudge didn't react to the Portkey in GoF because it was supposed to be a Portkey. When I read the book my assumption was that the Triwizard cup was supposed to take whoever touched it first from the center of the maze to the winner's circle in front of the stands, and Crouch basically hijacked it by putting a second Portus spell on it. So no one knew Harry and Cedric had been anywhere but Hogwarts...

I would imagine that Portkeys would be something that could not normally be done at Hogwarts, magically prevented like Apparating, unless allowed by the headmaster.

Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 7:06 pm (#665 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 8:07 pm

You know, Mrs. Brisbee, I don't know why I never thought of it before, but ... suddenly I am wondering if there is a way to "backtrack" a portkey, the way Amos Diggory did the Prior Incanto (GoF, p 136, US ed.) to "backtrack" the spells cast by Harry's wand. Probably not, or it would have been used ... but I think it is an interesting thing to ask. If there ISN'T a way, why not? I would assume such a spell would be VERY useful on many occasions. It certainly would have verified exactly where Harry and Cedric had been, wouldn't it?

Tom, I like your idea of Madam Hooch teaching apparating to the kids. I've often wondered what else she does when she isn't teaching first years to fly and "reffing" Quidditch matches.

Tomoé, I think you would make as good a minister as many and certainly better than Fudge. You have my vote! I agree that Harry certainly should be taught to apparate asap, for the reasons you state. He was able to have his own broom early, and this seems a far more critical issue than that.

Scabbers, I do think there is significance to the number 7. JKR could just as easily made the Hogwarts education a 6-year (corresponding to junior high and high school) or 8-year (corresponding to jr hi, hs, & junior college or trade school) program. I think the number 7 will turn out to be significant.

Solitaire

Tomoé - Sep 28, 2004 7:46 pm (#666 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 8:46 pm

I have a vote? Great! The only drawback is I don't live in the UK, so I don't think my chances are good. -_-

As for the Portkey cup, Crouch Jr said : "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner [...] turned it into a Portkey." (UK GoF ch.35 p.600) It sounds like it wasn't supposed to be a Portkey at all.

Daioma Dumbledore - Sep 28, 2004 7:53 pm (#667 of 1227)

Solitaire, since the books are set in England then logically the books follow the English school years which I believe are 1-7. I think the US is the only place to have the Junior High, High School thing, here is Oz we have Years 1-6. That said, there does seem to be great significance with numbers (ie:12) in the book.

Tomoe`, you beat me to it regarding the cup being a port key, although I wasn't clever enough to remember the quote & don't have the book with me! But that's just what I was thinking, I'm sure there isn't anywhere that it says the cup was to transport them out of the maze.

Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 7:59 pm (#668 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 9:02 pm

I think it WAS supposed to be a Portkey, Tomoé ... just not to the graveyard. It was supposed to take the winner from the center of the maze to the winner's circle with Dumbledore and the judges. Crouch's spell superseded Dumbledore's spell and took them to the graveyard instead.

During the Priori Incantatem--when Voldemort's victims are walking around him and talking--remember that the shadow of James tells Harry that, as soon as the spell is broken, to get to the Portkey; it would return them to Hogwarts. When Harry grabbed Cedric and accio'd the trophy, the original Portkey kicked in and took him where he and Cedric should have gone in the first place--to Dumbledore.

Solitaire

Edit: Was it possible that--if Harry had died--Voldemort and his DEs would have used the Portkey to go back to Hogwarts and seize power?

Tomoé - Sep 28, 2004 8:21 pm (#669 of 1227)
Edited Sep 28, 2004 9:21 pm

That mean I should reread GoF then, not that I'm complaining. ^_^

Japan too have Junior High and High school, though they are named middle school and high school.

therealscabbers - Sep 29, 2004 1:00 am (#670 of 1227)
Edited Sep 29, 2004 2:01 am

Yeah in the UK compulsory secondary education is from 11-16 (5yrs) this takes you up to sitting your GCES's (or OWLS) then you have the option of staying on to 18yrs (extra 2 yrs) to do A-Levels (NEWTS) So 7 years in total. the extra 2 years are known as lower and upper 6th the first 5 years are actually years 7-11 with primary education being reception then year 1-6. So JKR has used the British system (hmm wonder why ;-)maybe because she is English and the books are based in UK!) to account for their education mind you Scottish education does differ slightly from England and Wales but the number of years is the same 7 for secondary.

Mrs Brisbee - Sep 29, 2004 6:10 am (#671 of 1227)

I agree with you all that Harry should be taught to Apparate as soon as possible. But wasn't it Bill or Charlie who had to take his Apparating test twice because the first time he ended up miles off course? They better not lose Harry somewhere while trying to teach him! Though if Apparating involves being able to clearly picture where you want to go then Harry should be good at it, because his visual memory is good (even if his audial memory is a bit iffy).

And Tomoé is correct that no one ever says in GoF that the Cup was supposed to be a Portkey. I assumed it was for several reasons. Bagman said, when explaining the Third task to the champions, that whoever touched the Cup first would win. If it was a Portkey than that would explain how everyone would know there was a winner when no one could see into the maze. Also it took Harry back to Hogwarts to the grounds in front of the stands, which is where you would want to port the winner. And no one seemed to think the manner of his arrival odd--it's never been commented on, which should be the case if it wasn't supposed to be a Portkey. And I also assumed that Portkeys would be magically prevented at Hogwarts without the headmaster's authorization, otherwise people could Portkey in and out all the time. The only other times we have seen anyone use Portkeys at Hogwarts they were made by Dumbledore. So my assumption was that Crouch hijacked an authorized Portkey. And that this was why he couldn't just hand Harry a book or something he had turned into a Portkey, because it wouldn't have worked without Dumbledore's authorization.

Solitaire - Sep 29, 2004 6:29 am (#672 of 1227)

I think you are correct, Mrs. Brisbee! You filled in the blanks that I left! Thanks. Smile

Paulus Maximus - Sep 29, 2004 6:42 am (#673 of 1227)
Edited Sep 29, 2004 7:43 am

"Was it possible that--if Harry had died--Voldemort and his DEs would have used the Portkey to go back to Hogwarts and seize power?"

We'll never know, since Harry didn't die, but I don't think that Voldemort wanted Dumbledore to know that he was back. Coming to Hogwarts would have alerted Dumbledore as surely as Harry's testimony.

Whatever Voldemort would have done if Harry had died, he wouldn't have Ported to Hogwarts himself.

librarian314 - Sep 29, 2004 9:05 am (#674 of 1227)
Edited Sep 29, 2004 10:06 am

Hey all!

If Harry needs to learn to Apparate before he turns 17, he can always get Fred and George to help him. Remember in the beginning of OotP we hear that they passed their licensing exams with distinction (or some other honors, I don't have the book handy, right now.) None of the Prefect/Head boy Weasleys did that well; we even hear about how they messed up and had to take the test again.

This makes me think that the Twins taught themselves to Apparate and have been doing for quite some time. It also makes me think that getting one's Apparating license is like getting a driver's license. It is physically possible to Apparate younger than 17 but the Ministry makes wizards and witches wait until they (theoretically) understand the responsibilities of Apparition.

I think that Harry will take the train back to Hogwarts at the beginning of the next term as the train ride is a touch stone of the books. The kids always start off leaving from King's Cross Station. I think something might happen on the train ride north; maybe Dementors attack the train again and the DA protects the rest of the kids from them.

Y'all take care!

# *michelle the librarian**

P.S. Love your avatar Paulus Maximus. My husband, daughter, and I play that regularly!

Mrs Brisbee - Sep 29, 2004 12:18 pm (#675 of 1227)

Heehee--I can believe Fred and George were sneakily Apparating when they were underage. Now that they have their licenses they "feel a need to Apparate every few feet," as their mother complained. They are very good at it, but I can't see them settling down enough to teach Harry or anyone else how to do it. They just don't have the temperments to make good teachers.

Catherine - Sep 29, 2004 12:31 pm (#676 of 1227)

They just don't have the temperments to make good teachers--Mrs. Brisbee

Well, they are certainly not "academic," but I could see Fred and George being excellent teachers, if they only had the credentials. They are very creative, and they have a knack for selling things to kids. I think it would be very interesting to have a charms class where you make a headless hat, or a Canary Cream.

total hatred - Sep 29, 2004 2:46 pm (#677 of 1227)

I think the twins are smart. They are far much smarter than Percy and Ron combined. The only problem is they are more interested on things not related to school curiculum.

Solitaire - Sep 29, 2004 6:30 pm (#678 of 1227)

The twins are a teacher's worst nightmare ... they are probably brilliant--they would have to be amazing at potions to make some of the stuff they do--but they completely misapply their intelligence. Well, it seems that way to adults, anyway. As it happened, however, Hogwarts was one big clinical trial for everything they have created.

A different Head than Dumbledore would probably have tossed them out on their ears years before. But I get the idea Dumbledore was probably a bit of a scamp himself and truly appreciates genius in whatever form it takes. We know his brother Aberforth was involved in practicing illegal charms on a goat. Who knows what else he did? Come to think of it, he might get on famously with the twins! Perhaps they could do complementary work in the Order! LOL

What sounds weird ... I can't picture the Weasley twins in a battle for their lives, like the one at the DoM. Instead of trying to get away or save lives, they would be busy turning DEs into canaries or shooting vanishing spells at them! And once they got a load of the baby head, they would have to figure out how to put baby heads on the other DEs. Then again, that kind of battle WOULD be a lot more fun to see!

Solitaire

therealscabbers - Sep 30, 2004 12:41 am (#679 of 1227)

Hang on I think I see the topic off somwhere in the distance.....

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 6, 2004 11:26 am (#680 of 1227)
Edited Oct 6, 2004 12:26 pm

Of Dumbledore's Army what percentage are likely to become targets of Voldemort and his Death Eaters?

timrew - Oct 6, 2004 2:01 pm (#681 of 1227)

I think the final battle will be between the DA's, The OOP, on one side.....and the Death Eaters. So, 100% either way......

As to who will win........

therealscabbers - Oct 7, 2004 6:29 am (#682 of 1227)

not sure 100% of them will be as not all of them will enter the fight, as has been discussed earlier on the thread some fo the DA were merely there to pass exams or leard defensive magic. All of the Mom guys will be targets and the weasly twins, possibly Cho, and the other prefects as they have had a lot of screen time but not the others IMO

Chemyst - Oct 7, 2004 1:38 pm (#683 of 1227)

...what percentage are likely to become targets
I'd think all of them that they'd know about. Some may be only secondary or tertiary targets, but targets nonetheless.

Which raises other questions: Which ones could they know about? Umbridge had the list, but then what became of it? Did anyone have the presence of mind to pick it up?

Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 7:01 am (#684 of 1227)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 8:10 am

The last time we read of the physical list, Dumbledore took it from Fudge to make sure it was written Dumbledore's Army on it. No one have asked it back or taken it back.

Edit :The only ones who had the list in their hands are Pansy, Umbridge, Fudge and Dumbledore.

Chemyst - Oct 8, 2004 5:18 pm (#685 of 1227)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 6:19 pm

Thanks, Tomoé. I just went back to reread that. It is interesting how Fudge was far more concerned about Percy's note-taking to gather evidence against DD than he was with knowing who was on the list. Typical Fudge – can't see the forest for the trees. It just could be that the DA inadvertently plays a part in Fudge's demise by having fed his paranoia.

So DD was the last person known to have the list and likely kept it; Umbridge is now gone from Hogwarts; according to one of the old Rumors ads on JKR's website, Fudge runs from office; so that leaves Pansy as the only "unknown quantity" who has seen the list. I'm stumped as to why no one has yet twisted this into "proof" that Pansy will reform??? Not acting on this makes a shred more sense than not zinging after the bubotuber.

Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 5:22 pm (#686 of 1227)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 6:23 pm

Indeed Chemyst. That makes more sense.

I suppose Dumbledore disposed of the list after the incident.

Prefect Marcus - Oct 8, 2004 5:30 pm (#687 of 1227)

Chemyst - I'm stumped as to why no one has yet twisted this into "proof" that Pansy will reform???

Really, Chemyst, there no reason to "twist" anything. As has been stated more than once by more than one person, the theory of Pansy's eventual redemption really supports itself. Hints keep popping up all by themselves. Even some of the theory's most ardent detractors have pointed them out.

Welcome to the club!

P.S.: Oh, and thanks for the new hint. :-D

Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 6:00 pm (#688 of 1227)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 7:01 pm

Maybe she didn't even read the list or couldn't make out the script of other students. There's not much time between Harry getting out of the Requirement room and Umbridge taking Harry to the Headmaster's office. And since they didn't stop en route, it's save to assume both Umbridge and Pansy had a very quick glance at it, not much than Fudge.

Solitaire - Oct 8, 2004 7:25 pm (#689 of 1227)

Well, since book 6 isn't here yet, we don't know whether any blabbing will have taken place over the summer. After the drubbing Draco & the boys received at the hands of 6 of the DA--on the train home--Pansy may remember the "antler" episode and feel it's only fair to help the boys exact a bit of revenge.

On the other hand, she may decide it's time to cut ties with those losers and find some new friends who who'll stick by her when the chips are down. Time will tell ...

Solitaire

Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 8:18 pm (#690 of 1227)

It all depends of who give her antler.

total hatred - Oct 8, 2004 9:50 pm (#691 of 1227)

By the way, who gave her the antlers

Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 10:20 pm (#692 of 1227)

We don't know, maybe we should ask Steve to add the question in the open letter. ^_^

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 8:46 am (#693 of 1227)

In the US edition, Pansy's antlers are at the bottom of page 677, the second page of chapter 30. They happen in the wake of the Weasley twins' spectacular departure from Hogwarts.

On the same page ... "Inspired by Fred and George's example, a great number of students were now vying for the newly vacant positions of Troublemakers-in-Chief."

Farther down the page ... "Filch prowled the corridors with a horsewhip ready in his hands, desperate to catch miscreants, but the problem was that there were now so many of them that he did not know which way to turn. The Inquisitorial Squad were attempting to help him, but odd things kept happening to its members ..."

It sounds like there were several people involved in the fun, but I wonder ... wasn't it Lee Jordan who put the hairy-snouted niffler in Umbridge's office? He was certainly close to Fred & George, and he served as the occasional guinea pig for some of their products, didn't he? I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that he had contributed heavily to the merriment and mayhem. (Psssst! You don't suppose Hermione would have given Pansy those antlers, do you? She seems to have abandoned her obsession with rules when the situation warrants a more creative approach.)

Solitaire

Prefect Marcus - Oct 9, 2004 9:56 am (#694 of 1227)

Solitaire - You don't suppose Hermione would have given Pansy those antlers, do you?

Though it is an intriguing thought, I don't think Hermione did it. It's not her style, for one thing. For another, I think she would have been a bit more smug if she had. She is not exactly known for her poker face, is she?

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 9, 2004 10:38 am (#695 of 1227)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 11:39 am

This is a random thought about the antlers. Is it possible that giving Pansy the antlers is something that Ginny Weasley might do to impress Fred and George?

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 11:24 am (#696 of 1227)

LOL Nathan! Also a good suggestion. Ginny is quite capable of tossing out a very good hex or jinx when necessary, and she can lie with a straight face. Still, Hermione does have an ax to grind with Pansy for helping out Umbridge.

As for Hermione's poker face ... well, she was quite delighted when Pansy missed all of her classes the next day. And Hermione has been known to keep a secret or two from her old pals Ron and Harry. (Remember the Time Turner and her date with Viktor?) I believe she is more than capable of keeping her own counsel, and I wouldn't put it past her to bestow a pair of antlers on Pansy ... just for fun!

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 9, 2004 11:47 am (#697 of 1227)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 12:49 pm

Another interesting thought occurred to me regarding Neville and Luna. She is viewed as being a bit strange, and he is generaly written off as a clumsy person by most students and staff. One could say that they are people that students and staff do not take notice of unless, it is absolutely necessary, and that they try hard to ignore them. As such is it possible that they could have bestowed Pansy with the antlers and have it viewed as just another mistake on their part.

Prefect Marcus - Oct 9, 2004 2:50 pm (#698 of 1227)
Edited by Oct 9, 2004 3:50 pm

Yes, Hermione can keep her own counsel. However, she does tend to enjoy her triumph when Harry and Ron finally get around to noticing the deed.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 9, 2004 4:40 pm (#699 of 1227)

Now that is an interesting thought Nathan! I like it!

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 10, 2004 2:43 pm (#700 of 1227)

LOL Nathan! I hope we see more of Neville and Luna in the next books. LPO

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eggplant - Oct 10, 2004 10:07 pm (#701 of 1227)

I think when they discover all members of the DA received an O (outstanding) in their OWL’s and Harry got the highest grade ever recorded in that subject, beating a record set a century ago by Dumbledore when he was 15, nobody would dream of disbanding the DA in book 6. I think the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher will be Dumbledore himself because he has a premonition that his time is very short and if he wants to impart his knowledge to a new generation he must do it now. Dumbledore teaches at such a high level everybody, except Harry, has great difficulty following it, even Hermione is struggling; and that’s where the DA comes in. Harry tutors the others in what Dumbledore was trying to say. And I think the tradition will continue and a new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher will be needed for book 7 because the old teacher is dead, the new teacher will be Harry.

Eggplant

Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 10:31 pm (#702 of 1227)

eggplant: I think when they discover all members of the DA received an O (outstanding) in their OWL’s and Harry got the highest grade ever recorded in that subject, beating a record set a century ago by Dumbledore when he was 15

Eggplant, I like the way you think! I'm not sure Harry will teach, however ... although DADA would definitely be his subject, if he did! Still, he likes Hogwarts and he will need a place to live, so who knows?

therealscabbers - Oct 11, 2004 7:56 am (#703 of 1227)

still cant see DD teaching with all his other commitments he just wouldnt have the time!

eggplant - Oct 11, 2004 11:51 am (#704 of 1227)

"still cant see DD teaching with all his other commitments he just wouldnt have the time!"

What could Dumbledore possibly be doing that was more important than teaching the only person who has a chance of defeating Voldemort, especially when the headmaster knows it’s now or never?

Eggplant

sere35 - Oct 11, 2004 3:41 pm (#705 of 1227)

Eggplant I don't think that is what they are saying. No it's not a waste of time to teach Harry one on one. However it is a waste of his very valuable time to teach every student in the school.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 11, 2004 4:22 pm (#706 of 1227)

Eggplant I like the idea of DD teaching in book six. Though I think he would be a good teacher and the students wouldn't need Harry's help. I don't like the idea of Harry being the teacher in book 7. I hope DD makes it through the series. LPO

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 11, 2004 8:13 pm (#707 of 1227)

No it's not a waste of time to teach Harry one on one. However it is a waste of his very valuable time to teach every student in the school.

I don't think DD would be the sort of man/wizard to think that teaching students to defend themselves against such terror was a waste of his valuable time. And really do you really think it would take up that much of his time? A few classes a week?

TomProffitt - Oct 11, 2004 8:28 pm (#708 of 1227)

Remember DD would be teaching seven years and four Houses. 28 hours in the classroom plus preparation and grading. Do that and be Headmaster. Umbridge could do it, but she wasn't exactly teaching anything.

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 11, 2004 9:29 pm (#709 of 1227)

I just think that if Dumbledore does teach DADA then it will be because he believes it is a priority, so he will make the time, he has ways.....

eggplant - Oct 11, 2004 9:35 pm (#710 of 1227)

“Eggplant I like the idea of DD teaching in book six. Though I think he would be a good teacher and the students wouldn't need Harry's help.”

The way I see it Dumbledore will be teaching a much much more advanced class than is normal in the 6’Th year, in fact his goal is nothing less than to teach them everything he knows about the dark arts in just one year, because otherwise all that knowledge will die with him. Trying to absorb information at that rate is a little like drinking from a fire hose and Harry is the only one with the natural talent to take it all in. The others are going to need Harry’s help, they need him to explain things more slowly and show them how to perform the spells at DA meetings. Eggplant

therealscabbers - Oct 12, 2004 2:10 am (#711 of 1227)

Eggplant, not only is DD headmaster he is also chief warlock of the wizengmot, confederation of wizards and everything else (cant remember off hand all the other jobs), and he is beginning to look his age!! (according to Harry at the end of OotP) So dont think that he could do all that and teach everyone in the school DADA. He may however either teach the DA and or Harry alone but they will still have a new DADA teacher.

DD knows that all of his other roles are important as well as all of the WW needs to draw together to defeat LV, ok we know Harry will pull the final punch as it were but he needs the whole WW behind him and that is DD's job as well

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 12, 2004 3:03 am (#712 of 1227)
Edited Oct 12, 2004 4:08 am

"in fact his goal is nothing less than to teach them everything he knows about the dark arts in just one year, because otherwise all that knowledge will die with him." This I do not believe.

A. It would be impossible for anyone, even Harry, to absorb and comprehend just the knowledge that Dumbledore has accumulated in 150 years in one or even two years. It would also be impossible to impart that knowledge in that time-frame.

B. Harry does not have the wisdom or experience that comes with 150 years of living.

C. Dumbledore himself says in Chap. 37, OoP "I knew that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power."

D. I agree with Scabbers, Dumbledore does not have the time with all his other responsibilities. He is still human after all...

Edit: E. Nor do I think, if Dumbledore dies that knowledge will die with him. Knowledge is not something that just disappears when the one who knows it dies. Knowledge lives on in memories, books, myths, legends, and a multitude of other ways. After all, Dumbledore was not born with all that knowledge, it took him 150 years to arrive where he is now.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 12, 2004 5:34 am (#713 of 1227)

Sorry to interject off topic here, but why does everyone keep saying Dumbledore is 150 years old? I would place him in his late seventies. I don't remember there ever being anything in the books to suggest such an unnatural lifespan, or that his birthdate was 1850! Madame Marchbanks would then have to be at least 170!

Or is the 150 just hyperbole?

Eponine - Oct 12, 2004 5:46 am (#714 of 1227)

JKR said how old he was in an interview once.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 12, 2004 5:49 am (#715 of 1227)
Edited Oct 12, 2004 6:52 am

You might want to read here Mrs Brisbee Dumbledore for the basics, and here for valadition.

Edit: He's now closer to 155 :-) A wizards lifespan is about twice a muggles.

Solitaire - Oct 12, 2004 6:21 am (#716 of 1227)

Could Dumbledore also have some Elixir of Life stashed away--just in case--so that he will have time enough to complete the tasks he needs to accomplish before he embarks on that "next great adventure"? Just wondering what others think ...

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 12, 2004 7:25 am (#717 of 1227)
Edited Oct 12, 2004 8:26 am

"Could Dumbledore also have some Elixir of Life stashed away" He could, but part of my mind tells me he's too "noble" to use it. Another part of my mind disagrees, and the rest of my mind went out to lunch years ago and forgot to come back! :-)

For now I'll go with he could but wouldn't.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 12, 2004 2:30 pm (#718 of 1227)

Thank you, Eponine and TwinklingBlueEyes. I don't like it, it's weird, but there it is. And here I was thinking Hagrid were so youthful because he was half-giant but it's actually because he is half-wizard. It just throws things off. Grr.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

Paulus Maximus - Oct 12, 2004 3:21 pm (#719 of 1227)

We're not sure. Giants might be more longeve than human muggles.

And wizards grow up at the same rate as muggles, I think.

Then again, it seems odd that the centaurs said that Harry was "approaching manhood" but nothing of Hermione "approaching womanhood." (Or being well into womanhood, more likely.)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 12, 2004 4:20 pm (#720 of 1227)

I hope DD lets the DA continue for the very purpose of preparing for the battle with Voldy. As a teacher I know you really learn something when you have to teach it. Harry could continue as the club leader. I don't think DD can teach him everything in a year. LPO

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 13, 2004 11:41 am (#721 of 1227)

I think the DA should continue as a study group too. After all, there are groups for other subjects (a charm's club was mentioned in OotP) and almost everyone in the school is behind in DADA. Though it might be good to limit membership to 5th years and up, because otherwise everyone might want to join.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 13, 2004 4:09 pm (#722 of 1227)
Edited Oct 13, 2004 5:09 pm

"everyone might want to join."

And would that be a bad thing?

Besides, every DA member who didn't finish school or betray the organization will come back, I think. Why turn away Dennis and the rest of the youngsters?

Solitaire - Oct 13, 2004 4:21 pm (#723 of 1227)

Given the state of affairs, it would seem to me the more kids in the DA, the better. I believe things are going to be rough all over, and Hogwarts isn't going to be immune from attack this time. The kids--ALL of them--need to know how to defend themselves, and I think the DA is more necessary now than ever. As a matter of fact, Harry would be particularly good at working with some of the younger kids, don't you think?

I don't think you need to worry about any DE Slytherins--especially Draco and his thugs--wanting to join. They will probably start their own DNA (Death Nibblers Association). If some some non-DN Slytherins want to join, however, I say let 'em in. If they have ulterior motives for joining, it will become apparent soon enough, don't you think? If they truly oppose Voldemort and the DEs, what better way to unite the houses?

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Oct 13, 2004 4:25 pm (#724 of 1227)

I would argue that one of the Slytherins might betray the DA, but at this point there's not much left to betray...

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 13, 2004 5:41 pm (#725 of 1227)

Well, I do agree that ALL the kids want and need the DA, but trying to teach several hundred people practical DADA skills at one time seems a bit much. I think it would need to split into several smaller groups, and some of the other DA members besides Harry could be voted leader of those groups, and teach quite well.

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 13, 2004 5:58 pm (#726 of 1227)

Death Nibblers! Hahaha love it Solitaire! :-)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 13, 2004 7:12 pm (#727 of 1227)

DNA LOL Solitaire!

Mrs. Brisbee what a great plan. It would be very good for Neville and Ron to be in charge of a group. They would be pleasantly surprised at how much they know. LPO

Solitaire - Oct 13, 2004 8:11 pm (#728 of 1227)

Daioma, I must confess that Death Nibblers was not my invention. Someone here at the Forum coined the term; if I knew who it was, I'd give him or her credit.

Mrs. Brisbee & LPO, you may be onto something. In OotP, Harry said (well, in his mind) more than once that Neville was doing well. When he was teaching them the Impediment Jinx, the narrative says "Neville had improved beyond all recognition." In the meeting following the escape of the DEs from Azkaban, "... he was improving so fast it was quite unnerving and when Harry taught them the Shield Charm ... only Hermione mastered the charm faster than Neville."

Neville's progress in the DA shows that he is clearly capable when he is not being belittled or berated. I am hoping that he will improve still more when he gets his new wand. He was, to all intents and purposes, disabled in the DoM battle near the end (thanks to not being able to pronounce the spells), but he didn't dissolve in a heap, so there is some inner grit there. Perhaps the memory of having participated in that battle will serve to bolster his confidence with Snape. I hope so. I love sweet, gentle Neville. (I'd love to see him clean Malfoy's clock!)

Solitaire

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 4:57 am (#729 of 1227)
Edited Oct 14, 2004 5:58 am

Well, to whom ever it was that coined the Death Nibblers term, I tip my hat to you, I love it

As for Neville taking on more of a leading role in the DA meetings, I too am all for it, I've been longing for Neville to shine a bit, that's one of the many reasons I enjoyed the MoM battle scene. And I just think that if Neville continues to grow and progress in the DA then his confidence will grow in other areas too.

Amber

Tomoé - Oct 14, 2004 7:13 am (#730 of 1227)

Who coined the Death Nibblers term ? Timrew the king of spew of course. ^_~

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 14, 2004 5:22 pm (#731 of 1227)

Solitaire and Daioma I loved the character development in Neville. The DA was one of the best things for him. Won't some of his teachers be surprised when he gets an O.W.L. in DADA? His loyalty to Harry throughout the book is admirable. He showed a bit of an English Bulldog in him at the MOM. I know this has been said before but I hope he continues to improve when he gets his own wand. Maybe now he can get out from under the shadow of his father. It would be good for the DA to continue in some form for him. LPO

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 14, 2004 6:20 pm (#732 of 1227)

I too would love to see Neville take a leadership role in the DA. I do think he has it in him, if he could just gain a little more confidence. I was very impressed with him at the DoM: when Hermione was injured and Harry was panicking, Neville was the one to keep his head.

I also think Ginny would make a good teacher. She has the confidence and competence already.

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 8:18 pm (#733 of 1227)

LPO, won't the teachers be surprised when ALL the members of the DA get an O in the exam!

I'm not sure about Ginny being a DA leader, I'll ponder on that one, but I definatley think she'll be a prefect

Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 8:42 pm (#734 of 1227)
Edited Oct 14, 2004 9:42 pm

LPO, I wonder what Gran Longbottom will say when she learns of Neville's exploits at the DoM--after she finishes giving him a royal chewing-out for breaking his father's wand, of course! She has done nothing but throw his father's skill (and his lack of skill) in his face, as far as I can see. I hope she backs off and begins treating him with some well-deserved respect.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 15, 2004 3:26 pm (#735 of 1227)

Right on Solitaire. I hope she takes this as a reason to be proud of him. He is more than just a "good boy." She supports Dumbledore and seems to respect Harry. Neville was in the thick of things. I wonder if she knows about the DA? Other than DD and McGonagall I wonder what other teachers know about the DA? I bet Snape won't be to pleased with Neville success on the exams.

I think Ginny can be a DA leader. Especially after the MoM incident. She would be a fun teacher. I love the way she deals with other DA members. LPO

Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 8:00 pm (#736 of 1227)
Edited Oct 15, 2004 9:05 pm

I wonder how many people do know about the DA ... at this point. Obviously Fudge and the Ministry officials (Kingsley and Dawlish) at Hogwarts that day know, since that was the day Marietta's curse went into effect and Dumbledore disappeared in a flash of fire. Who else might they have told? I have loads of questions about this ...

Do all of the Hogwarts students now know, or do they just know Dumbledore made a fabulous exit and his office locked Umbridge out? After Marietta's experience, I wouldn't bet any of the DA members would talk about the DA to anyone other than another DA member ... just in case. So does anyone OTHER than the DA members know why Marietta has SNEAK written on her face?

Moving right along ... Imagine the egg on Fudge's face when it becomes public knowledge that six inexperienced kids held off the DEs until Dumbledore and the others arrived and that they were partly responsible for bringing about the exposure of Voldemort's return. Wouldn't you like to buy tickets to THAT party?

Fudge's lame-o statement made me laugh: "Details of the events that led to the Ministry turn-around are still hazy ..." according to the front page of the Sunday Prophet, as read to the kids by Hermione. (OotP, page 846, US ed.) Still hazy, my eye!

Given everything that has happened, I wonder just exactly who does know about the DA. Neville will have to confess to Gran how the wand was broken, but I doubt he will fork over any further info--such as his membership in the DA. Do you think he would? (Sorry if this sounds disjointed. I'm a tad frazzled at the moment.)

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:03 pm (#737 of 1227)

I can just see half of the DA members showing up on Hermione's doorstep over the summer with "SNEAK" written on their faces. Told just a bit too much to their parents or other favorite relative over the holidays.

Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 8:08 pm (#738 of 1227)

That's what I'm wondering, Tom ... How much is now in the open, and how much is still secret? Once it becomes "common knowledge"--if it does--will the jinx no longer be in effect?

TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:16 pm (#739 of 1227)
Edited Oct 15, 2004 9:29 pm

I think, as with SPEW, Hermione didn't think this one all of the way through.

I'm sure she took it for granted that everyone would know she put a jinx on the membership roster. I wouldn't be surprised if the counter-jinx is just a tad bit more difficult than she expected (which could explain why Marietta rode the train home in a balaclava).

"Oops, sorry about that , Harry. I didn't think talking to Lupin would trigger the jinx. Don't worry, I've almost got the counter-jinx worked out. You'll be better by the time school starts, I think."

Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 8:20 pm (#740 of 1227)

Since Sirius knew about the DA (as did Dumbledore), I expect Remus was probably clued in, as well. It wouldn't surprise me, in fact, if Mad-Eye and a few others knew about it. We know Kingsley knew. Just a hunch, of course ...

TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:30 pm (#741 of 1227)

Just a bit of hyperbole, Solitaire.

Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 8:42 pm (#742 of 1227)

It all depends of what Dumbledore did with the parchement after he escaped from his office. But since all the decrees have been removed, he could burn the letter down.

eggplant - Oct 16, 2004 8:29 am (#743 of 1227)

"I think, as with SPEW, Hermione didn't think this one all of the way through."

I think Hermione knew exactly what she was doing when she put a jinx on the membership roster and I think Marietta got off very lightly for her treachery. Usually a spy who is discovered betraying her friends to the enemy in a time of war, an enemy that routinely uses torture death and things worse than death, could expect a bullet in the brain. This is not fun and games, this is life and death, so if Marietta is disfigured for life it will invoke few tears from Hermione. She’s tougher than that and so is Harry, you need to be tough to win a war.

I also think Hermione is right about SPEW, and that’s why she is my favorite character after Harry.

Eggplant

legolas - Oct 17, 2004 5:09 am (#744 of 1227)

I would think that as most of the Inquisitorail squad knows and there are members of the DA in the other houses. I would imagine that there would be a whole lot of gossip after Marietta got her spots. I dont think that the IS would pass on the information after the disaster of them being beaten happend. I would just imagine that it would be wild speculation.

lobelia - Oct 18, 2004 8:23 am (#745 of 1227)

The jinx was on anyone who told Umbridge, I think. Because if you remember, Seamus was told by Dean to come once he and Harry made up.

Julia. - Oct 18, 2004 10:18 am (#746 of 1227)

Close, but not quite Lobeila. The exact quote is "So, if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to." (OoP Ch. 16, Pg. 346 US) I took 'anybody else' to mean 'the enemy.' Once Harry and Seamus hade made up, Seamus was no longer an enemy and thus could safely be let in on the secret. You must also keep in mind that there is a big difference in tellling a potential group member (likely with the knolwedge of those in the group) about something they would be interested in doing, and telling someone who will sell you out and try to expell you and do all sorts of other things.

Chemyst - Oct 18, 2004 4:50 pm (#747 of 1227)

It all depends on what Dumbledore did with the parchement... - Tomoé

Brilliant point! If it was the parchment that was jinxed, and Hermione no longer has the parchment, then she may not be able to remove the jinx even if she wanted to.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 18, 2004 7:45 pm (#748 of 1227)

Remus knows about it because he and Sirius gave Harry a DADA book for Christmas. I imagine Fred, George, Ron and Ginny kept it secret from Molly. There are lots of questions on how the curse is activated. Is it only if told to certain adults? or did Hermione make it specific? Things have a way of getting around schools so I imagine a lot of students know about it. LPO

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 18, 2004 7:54 pm (#749 of 1227)

Molly did know about the DA, because when HRH where talking to Sirius in the fire, Molly had made him promise to tell Ron that he was "to under no circumstances take part in such a group" (something to that effect) Remember that Mundungus was in the hog's head at the time also, that's how Dumbledore knew about it, he was there guarding Harry, dressed as a witch with a veil over him. So Mundungus would of told the adults of the Order.

Solitaire - Oct 18, 2004 9:36 pm (#750 of 1227)

We know Mundungus told Sirus. Whether or not he told anyone else is up for grabs. Sherbie feels that Dung is probably the one who spilled it to Umbridge, which resulted in her writing Decree number 24.

Solitaire

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therealscabbers - Oct 19, 2004 12:20 am (#751 of 1227)

No the guy who was blowing up toilets told umbridge, he was the one at the bar wrapped in bandages because the last jinks backfired and hit him. Thats how he got away with the toilets because he gave information to the MOM. Dung would have told the order, then Molly got upset and when Sirius told her he was going to talk to Harry told him to tell her kids not to go ahead and advise Harry and Hermione not to go ahead either. Remus and Sirius knew as LPO said they bought him a book to help him out.

Tomoé - Oct 19, 2004 10:50 am (#752 of 1227)

Excelent point Chemyst, maybe Hermione have no power to remove to jinx now that she lost the parchement.

Liz Mann - Oct 28, 2004 2:46 pm (#753 of 1227)

So Marietta will be stuck with the spots forever? I can't see Hermione being that cruel somehow. The curse probably isn't permanant. However underhanded Marietta was, her crime wasn't bad enough to warrant a permanant punishment.

Steve Newton - Nov 2, 2004 11:28 am (#754 of 1227)

I had a thought this morning. (Yeah, I was surprised, too.) Seamus shows up at the last DA meeting. Some have wondered how the person who told him avoided the hex. Some have wondered if the hex only activated when Umbridge, or another annoying authority figure, was told. This could be true. But I wonder if Seamus knew about the DA all along and only joined at this time because he and Harry had quit their feud.

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 2, 2004 1:26 pm (#755 of 1227)

That sounds logical Steve.I have thought about that also.They(the D.A.)swore not to tell anyone but it wasn't mentioned that they couldn't invite others to join.

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 2, 2004 1:32 pm (#756 of 1227)

What if the person who was invited said no? Would that be considered telling?

*wishing she had all of JKR's infinite knowledge about Harry Potter*

Liz Mann - Nov 2, 2004 1:42 pm (#757 of 1227)

*wishing J.K. would come to the forum, note down the question, and answer it on her site*

wwtMask - Nov 2, 2004 2:05 pm (#758 of 1227)

We should add that question to the open letter. I always thought it was contradicting the Marietta Incident, but I suppose it's not too farfetched that Seamus had been been offered the chance to join or had overheard it when Dean was offered (he and Dean being thick as thieves). I would certainly like to have that cleared up.

An offhand question: assuming the DA continues in HBP, do you think they'll keep their original name or rename themselves to something more appropriate? There's really no more need to rebel against the Ministry, is there?

And am I the only one that hopes the DA really does turn into a well trained army? The downside to that would probably more foolhardy kids chasing around after adventure and Death Eaters...

Liz Mann - Nov 2, 2004 2:36 pm (#759 of 1227)

You're not the only one. I have a feeling that in the end they will become more than just a Defense study group. If Hogwarts is ever attacked (which is not all that unlikely), they may have to reform to try and defend it.

Tomoé - Nov 2, 2004 3:24 pm (#760 of 1227)

I hope they'll at least learn some strategy and won't ever stay in the middle of the most probable place to encounter the enemy when they need to have a talk. That scene really drove me crazy (or maybe it was the lack of sleep).

TomProffitt - Nov 2, 2004 10:16 pm (#761 of 1227)

I think we're confusing magic and science here. In science we get from what we do, in magic we get from what we intend. It's kind of a sideways thinking, but I imagine that magic knows what we intend, so we'd have to be intentionally violating a magical contract for the magical penalties to become active.

Tomoé - Nov 2, 2004 10:50 pm (#762 of 1227)

That could work.

Liz Mann - Nov 3, 2004 5:38 am (#763 of 1227)

Yes, that's true.

wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 7:45 am (#764 of 1227)

Since I couldn't find a better thread for this comment...

When I was going through the battle at the Dept. of Mysteries, I recall a few times when Death Eaters were stunned/paralyzed. Am I the only one who couldn't believe that Neville or Harry didn't use that opportunity to snap the wands of the incapacitated DEs? At least 2 of the DEs would have been a relative non factor if they had done so. Maybe there's a taboo against such a thing that we haven't been told about?

TomProffitt - Nov 5, 2004 7:50 am (#765 of 1227)

Or it could be that it's not as simple as snapping a wand over your knee. There could be possible magical backlash or something. We've only seen three wands break, so we don't really know if it's that easy or not.

I suspect it's probably not dangerous to break a wand, but it could be dangerous to distract yourself from battle to try and snatch a wand from an adult wizard who might wake up at any second, particularly when they have friends about.

Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 7:59 am (#766 of 1227)

I agree, Tom. The DA was trying to get away and taking time to look for dropped wands could have been fatal. I think that they focused on the right thing.

wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 7:59 am (#767 of 1227)

Still, they could have taken the wands at the very least. They might also have bound them with ropes. I hope, if the DA continues, that they use the experience to teach the others the importance of getting and keeping the enemy out of action.

On to another thought. The DA did a lot of wand work, but wouldn't it also be a good thing if they incorporated other disciplines besides Charms and Transfiguration? I can imagine them learning to brew and administer useful potions. Too bad Gred and Forge aren't still around, they seem to have intimate knowledge of potions.

Edit: Steve, I realize they were trying to get away, but it would have taken a second to get the wands (accio wands) and a few seconds to break them. This would effectively make the DEs defenseless and reduce by two the number of opponents they needed to worry about. While I attribute their lack of action to the heat of the moment, in the future they'll need to remember to eliminate their opponents before their opponents eliminate them.

TomProffitt - Nov 5, 2004 9:44 am (#768 of 1227)

"Still, they could have taken the wands at the very least." --- wwtMask

The DA so far has been a group that has only practiced individual defensive spells, Harry's only area of expertise.

What you're talking about, wwtMask, is tactics. There is no one in the group with any training in Wizard Tactics.

Things like snatching wands or binding fallen opponents seem like good ideas to the Monday Morning Quarterback, but they're not things that would occur in the heat of the moment. The whole reason soldiers train is so that they react along the lines of pre-planned tactics, battle happens much to quickly for the making of anything but the most rudimentary plans (not to mention the stress crowding out the thought process).

What the DA needs is someone who can teach them group tactics. Harry can try, but he'd be inventing it and learning it as he went. Moody seems a good choice for the job to me.

The real questions are:

Will the DA realize they need that training? And:

Will anyone be available and willing to give that training to them?

Tomoé - Nov 5, 2004 10:35 am (#769 of 1227)

You are not the only one wwtMask, either snap or pocket the stuned DE want is what I was begging them to do in my first reading along with "You're in the middle of the place, get out, get out, get out", when the six of them were together again in the black room where every other rooms lead, inquiring what happened to the other.

That was a very stressful reading, I was panicking for real, I couldn't see how the miss to follow simple self-preservation rules. I knew what to do and I'm not even trained to think under pression in the middle of the fight. Maybe I'm exceptionnaly gifted to react in diffidult situation, but I prefer to think the lack proper self-preservation reflex.

wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 11:52 am (#770 of 1227)

"Will the DA realize they need that training?"

I certainly hope none of the DA members who survived the battle in the MoM have come out of it with a high opinion of themselves. They all ought to feel extremely lucky for having escaped with small injuries. For all their talk about defending themselves against Voldemort and the DEs, their performance, while admirable, should make them think very hard about what their goal as a group was and what it will be in the future. They all made mistakes that could have cost them their lives and, if they intend to make a better showing in the future, they'll need proper training. My personal choice is Tonks or Moody.

Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 11:56 am (#771 of 1227)

wwt, I think that you are being a tad harsh. They were caught by surprise, Harry must work on his planning or start listening to Hermione, and successfully fought their way out. A few months ago FCBarca posted several times with similar posts. You might want to check them out. (FC doesn't seem to have been around for awhile.)

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 5, 2004 12:18 pm (#772 of 1227)

I think wwt is right (even if it does sound harsh). They can learn from their mistakes, and the DoM battle should certainly give them an invaluable lesson in what real deuling is like. Like Tom Proffitt said, they really need some tactical training, so that it becomes second nature, which is something Harry can't train them in.

So are we talking about Tonks or Moody coming in as a "guest" teacher? I would imagine that the Aurors and the Order are going to be pretty busy, but I hope the adults will see the importance of the DA and help its continuance.

Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 12:29 pm (#773 of 1227)

I'm not sure that auror training is what is needed. Veterans from the previous war would be best. Moody would serve but I'm not so sure of Tonks as a tactician.

wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 12:39 pm (#774 of 1227)

Surprised? How surprised could they really be? They went into the MoM thinking that Voldemort himself was there torturing Sirius! What were they really expecting to do if that was the case?

I don't see my comments as being harsh, more like realistic. Going to the MoM with the intention of fighting Voldemort or DEs was not very smart. Many things they did in that fight were not very smart. The kids, bless them, had this unrealistic idea that they were "ready". The battle showed that, while they are quite advanced, they are not quite ready to fight "a grown wizard's fight". I hope they realize how lucky they are and, if they intend to insinuate themselves into such dangerous situations again, they would do well to more properly prepare themselves. Just practicing defensive spells isn't going to cut it anymore.

Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 12:57 pm (#775 of 1227)

Absolutely correct, they were not ready to fight a battle. I am listening to this part of OOTP in my car and I am confused about what they were doing. They thought that they were going to rescue Sirius from Lord V. There sketchy play must have been to snatch Sirius and make a getaway. Instead they ran into 12 DEs. (I don't think that Hermione actually expected anyone to be there.) But individually they did quite well. Outnumbered, they gave as good as they got. We have every reason to expect them to improve. I suspect that the DEs have already reached their peak. When a bunch of rookies meet up with veterans and do OK that is something to be proud of. (They would be prouder if they had had a plan and kicked some butt.)

Paulus Maximus - Nov 5, 2004 3:52 pm (#776 of 1227)

I agree, Steve.

It was 12 Death Eaters against 6 students, and the Death Eaters didn't manage to kill even one of the students.

So, either the Death Eaters are losing their touch, or the kids are pretty good. Or both.

Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2004 4:56 pm (#777 of 1227)

Well, the Death Eaters had been out of practice for fourteen years.

Tomoé - Nov 5, 2004 4:59 pm (#778 of 1227)

Plus the had to watch for the prophecy, better take hostage and exchange it for the orb. It was very well planned to give the kids the advantage (of course, this is fiction).

Paulus Maximus - Nov 5, 2004 5:45 pm (#779 of 1227)

Malfoy had an opportunity to bargain for the kids ("Let the others go, and I'll give you the prophecy") and didn't. ("You aren't in a position to bargain.")

And besides, didn't he give an order to kill the others if necessary?

Solitaire - Nov 5, 2004 6:06 pm (#780 of 1227)

Tomoé: I couldn't see how the miss to follow simple self-preservation rules. I knew what to do and I'm not even trained to think under pression in the middle of the fight. Maybe I'm exceptionnaly gifted to react in diffidult situation, but I prefer to think the lack proper self-preservation reflex

Someone else said something about being a Monday morning quarterback, and I agree. I think it's awfully easy to sit in a chair reading a book and second-guess the responses of a bunch of kids. Until you are actually IN a similar sort of cat-and-mouse, life-and-death situation where YOU are the prey of seasoned killers, you really don't know what you are and are not capable of doing.

I hope the kids realize that they need some tactical and strategic training and practice. They need to find out what they can and cannot do in a battle. They have now experienced one real-life battle, and no doubt they will look back and see things they COULD and SHOULD have done differently. I hope so, anyway, because the next battle will be more brutal, I fear. Sadly, the only way to really learn how to handle oneself in battle is to DO battle. Until they are truly "onstage," everything is still all theoretical.

I can't help feeling that the DEs really did not take 6 kids very seriously--at least not at first. By the time the DEs got tired of the games and began the battle in earnest, the reinforcements had arrived and took some of the heat.

Bella's remark to Harry--about having to WANT to hurt your opponent--was a piece of critically important information that I hope he communicates to all of the DA. They can have the greatest strategic and tactical training in the world and know all of the spells, hexes, curses, and jinxes there are. But if they aren't able to point a wand at someone and mean what they say, is any of that going to do them any good? And if it isn't, shouldn't they know that before going into battle? After all, doing battle with DEs is not doing battle with gentlemen. DEs are cold-hearted assassins, and the kids must realize this.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 5, 2004 8:29 pm (#781 of 1227)

"Sadly, the only way to really learn how to handle oneself in battle is to DO battle." --- Solitaire

This is not exactly true. To learn to handle oneself in battle requires training. The more realistic the training the more effective it becomes. None of the DA have the experience to provide that training.

They will have to go outside the group to get that expertise. This is what I believe they may not realize. Adults have failed the trio, Harry in particular, on more than a few occasions, I am concerned that they may not have confidence in their adult leadership any longer.

The adults made a very poor showing with respect to Harry in OotP. (I have lots of examples in mind if you want them.)

Solitaire - Nov 5, 2004 9:42 pm (#782 of 1227)

I agree that extensive training helps, Tom, and I think the kids need a LOT more training and before they venture back into battle. But I still maintain that fighting in REAL battles is a lot different than experiences in controlled training situations.

As far as none of the DA being experienced enough to provide proper training, I doubt Harry would disagree. In fact, I think he would probably be the first to agree. He has even said as much. I believe he agreed to teach the DA only because there seemed to be no other options in OotP. I do not see that as the case anymore, now that Dumbledore is back in control of Hogwarts and Fudge has been forced to acknowledge in the open that Voldemort is back.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 5, 2004 9:56 pm (#783 of 1227)

"But I still maintain that fighting in REAL battles is a lot different than experiences in controlled training situations." --- Solitaire

It is different, people can die there. The idea is to make as many of the mistakes you need to make to learn from before battle is joined.

My true concern, however, remains unaddressed. Is Harry's faith in Dumbledore, the Ministry, and adults in general sufficiently intact for him to accept training from them? I suspect he would accept help from Lupin, Tonks, or Moody, but will a complete stranger have a chance to gain his confidence? Surely Dumbledore could regain his trust (if it's been lost), but does he have the time to train the DA?

Nearly Legless Mick - Nov 6, 2004 4:19 am (#784 of 1227)

I know it was foolhardy of the DA gang to head for the MOM, but wasn't it really because Harry was determined to go, and the others felt that if he was going he they weren't prepared to let him go alone.

Of course there's loads of things they need to learn, but the battle at the MOM certainly shoved them a long way up the curve (as long as they don't get conceited of course)

The other thing is that the loyalty they showed to Harry is admirable, and qualities like that and the courage they also showed can be as powerful a weapon against the Dark side as advanced magic.

The Dark wizards don't really understand things like love, honour and comradeship. But DD rightly sets a lot of store in those exact qualities.

Going back to the wand pinching and snapping idea - I agree it's very risky to try in the heat of battle, but didn't Fred and George perfect some fake wands (GOF, I think they sold some to Bagman?). If they did manage to swap some of the DE's wands with the fake ones it could be very useful. Very risky obviously, but I have great faith in Fred and George.

Regarding potential DADA teachers and instructors - I think the kids can tell pretty quickly who is worth listening to and who isn't. They sussed out Umbridge and Lockhart quickly enough. Obviously they were taken in by CrouchMoody, but he did teach them some wothwhile stuff even if that wasn't his real purpose.

And wasn't the battle scene at the MOM just fantastic to read. I felt that it really took the books to a new level of excitement. It was the sort of thing that the previous books had been slowly building up to and I'm looking forward to more of the same.

Steve Newton - Nov 6, 2004 5:49 am (#785 of 1227)

I am listening to OOTP. I had always thought that the DA had fought one battle (DOM) and a skirmish, on the Hogwart's Express. I realized yesterday that there was another skirmish. It happens off screen in Umbridge's office. The reports are that the DA did very well.

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 10:00 am (#786 of 1227)

LOL NLMick! I love the idea of swapping the DE's wands for Gred-n-Forge's fake wands! hehe Just as Anton Dolohov (sp) gets ready to AK someone, his wand turns into a rubber fish!

Tom, I think your concerns about Harry's faith in the adults are justified. I suppose he did feel as though he'd been let down--and if we look at things solely through his eyes, I guess he was. But look at McGonagall. She didn't abandon him, really. She tried to help him understand everyone's position with regard to Umbridge.

I'd say most of the professors had a pretty good grasp of what Umbridge's intentions were, after her opening "speech" that Hermione found so "illuminating." In a very real sense, though, their hands were tied. If they wanted to stay at Hogwarts and keep a close eye on the kids, they needed to play by her rules, and they knew it.

McGonagall took great pains to try and make Harry understand the seriousness of the situation in which they all found themselves with regard to Umbridge. She tried to tell him to "maintain" around Umbridge, because she realized he was a target. She warned him about the channels of communication into/out of Hogwarts being watched, because she knew he would try to reach Sirius and Lupin to either grouse about things or ask them questions.

I think the fact that the Order members came to the aid of the kids in the DoM--coupled with their appearance at King's Cross Station and their little pep talk to the Dursleys--may have reinstated Harry's faith in the adults of his world.

The truth is that he must have faith in them, because in the war, he is part of their ranks. He must feel he can trust them. I think he will come to realize this, if he hasn't already.

With regard to the DADA teacher business ... I do hope Dumbledore is able to bring in someone qualified. Frankly, I do not know why he doesn't just have a big parent meeting at Hogwarts. Point out the seriousness of the situation in the Wizarding World, and let the parents know he is hiring Remus back as DADA teacher. Tell them the precautions that are being taken, and let them decide whether or not they want to send their kids to Hogwarts or elsewhere.

Since there are so many great Wizards in the Order, I would think that various people could help teach DADA throughout the year--perhaps each one teaching to his strength. Remus could be the head DADA teacher, with the guest teachers filling in during the days when Remus is indisposed--or coming in to teach their specialties. I guess I just see more options because I want to see them.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 6, 2004 10:32 am (#787 of 1227)

Perhaps this belongs more on the Harry thread now, but when I say Harry may lose his faith in adults, I'm talking about adults in general. We as readers are able to separate the good, bad, and indifferent adults, easily, but how easy is it for Harry and the other kids in the DA?

It isn't just the Order of the Phoenix that represents the adult world for them. It is also, Gilderoy Lockhart, Cornelius Fudge, Ludo Bagman, Rita Skeeter, Dolores Umbridge, and Seamus's mum. None of those are either DE or OP members. Yet, they certainly aren't making a very good showing for the kids.

Even the Order of the Phoenix isn't showing too well for the adults. Mundungus Fletcher is unreliable and put Harry in jeopardy, Sirius had a maturity problem, DD won't talk to Harry, and then there's Severus Snape.

If the Order wants to help the DA, they have a long way to go to restore the faith of youth in adults.

Steve Newton - Nov 6, 2004 12:55 pm (#788 of 1227)

Back a ways people were saying that the DA was created as a study group for DADA. This may not be true. As Neville says in chapter 33, p761(American hardcover), "It was all supposed to be about fighting You-Know-Who, wasn't it? And this is the first chance we've had to do something real--or was that all just a game or something?"

Sir Tornado - Nov 6, 2004 1:12 pm (#789 of 1227)

Yes. DA was created for learning spells to fight against Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 2:38 pm (#790 of 1227)

But the kids were also concerned about facing their OWLs with nothing but theory from a book and no practical experience with any of the spells they might be asked to perform. I think that is stated in the book.

Annika - Nov 6, 2004 5:34 pm (#791 of 1227)

I wonder if any of the DA members or members of the Order will get the thousand-Galleon reward for "information relating to the recapture of any of the convicts (the ten escaped death eaters) pictured. (OP p558, American edition)

Annika

Steve Newton - Nov 6, 2004 7:24 pm (#792 of 1227)

I just reread chapter 16 of OOTP. Although the DADA OWL was mentioned, once, every other comment at the formation of the group was defense. Not specifically against Lord V but also not to pass the class. Obviously people joined for their own reasons but what they said was defense, not academics.

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 8:47 pm (#793 of 1227)

What about Chapter 12?

"... and isn't there a practical bit in our Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L.? Aren't we supposed to show that we can actually do the countercurses and things?"

"As long as you have studied the theory hard enough, there is no reason why you should not be able to perform the spells under carefully controlled examination conditions," said Professor Umbridge dismissively.

"Without ever practicing them before?" said Parvati incredulously. "Are you telling us that the first time we'll get to do the spells will be during our exam?"

Later, in Chapter 13, Hermione asks, "How can Dumbledore have let this happen?" ... "How can he let that terrible woman teach us? And in our O.W.L. year too!"

I do believe that the kids felt a need to be able to protect themselves, especially after the escape of the DEs from Azkaban. But I also feel they were upset at not being allowed to have any opportunity to practice what they knew they would be tested on in an O.W.L.

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Nov 7, 2004 12:04 am (#794 of 1227)

That's selfish then. However, you should also remember that there were loads of 4th year and 6th year students there. There was one 2nd year student too.

Steve Newton - Nov 7, 2004 6:28 am (#795 of 1227)

Well done Solitaire. I like it when people support their positions with actual evidence. You're right of course. My point was that at the formation of the that studies were only a minor point. The DA's major point was to fight Lord V and the bad guys.

Liz Mann - Nov 7, 2004 3:02 pm (#796 of 1227)

Besides, not all the members believed Harry about Voldemort. So they would have been joining for the sake of practicing for exams. Not just OWLs, but all exams.

wwtMask - Nov 8, 2004 7:31 am (#797 of 1227)

This is only speculation, but I think Neville may have been overstating the situation a bit. If we really look at it, Neville was fairly aching for a crack at the DEs who hurt his parents. As Hermione said, the DA was for them to learn to properly defend themselves. I don't relish the idea of the kids thinking of themselves as some sort of vigilantes.

The One - Nov 8, 2004 1:23 pm (#798 of 1227)

Even if you assume that the DA was partly studying to enable the members to defend themself if needed, it is quit a step from training individual skills to setting up a combat unit.

Harry (or Hermione) never intended to go anywhere to attack a bunch of DE's when the DA was organized, and when the the need araised he never considered mobilizing his "army" for the task.

In the DoM his "army" consisted entirely of people that happened to be present and that insisted to go.

Steve Newton - Nov 8, 2004 1:36 pm (#799 of 1227)

The One, I mostly agree with you. But, if you read the chapter about the formation of the DA, can't remember which chapter it is right now, then you will see that defense is the major reason stated for the formation of the DA.

You are right, though, the DA has only studied individual tactics, no small group stuff, and the group that went to the MOM was pretty ad hoc. They, meaning Harry, have to do better.

TomProffitt - Nov 8, 2004 1:56 pm (#800 of 1227)

I think the intention of the founders of the DA, i.e. the Trio, was to fight Lord Voldemort.

I don't believe any of them had any idea what fighting Lord Voldemort would entail. Even Harry was unable to correctly estimate Lord Voldemort's actions, at the cost of Sirius's life.

Having had the job of training soldiers for combat I have become more and more aware of just how large a task it is. The DA seemed to be of the opinion that we take a couple of boxes of ammo out to the rifle range and we'll be ready when the ammo's gone.

Naturally there would be exceptions. Harry knew there was more to it than that, but there was more than he expected. Others probably never thought they had a real chance of entering a fight (the other extreme).

It will be interesting to see how the DA changes now that some members have had that first fight. Some will want a fight of their own. Some will be terrified to do it again (although I expect all of them to overcome that fear). Some will want out. Some will want in. The DA will be quite a different group in the next book.

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Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 3:19 pm (#801 of 1227)

TomProffitt: Others probably never thought they had a real chance of entering a fight (the other extreme).

The One: Harry (or Hermione) never intended to go anywhere to attack a bunch of DE's when the DA was organized ... and In the DoM his "army" consisted entirely of people that happened to be present and that insisted to go.

I think the most of the kids probably suspected there might someday be a need to fight Voldemort or DEs. Somehow, though, I doubt they figured it would happen so soon.

As for Hermione and Ron, I'm not sure what they thought. We know from Hermione's initial broaching of the subject with Harry that she and Ron figured they might "someday" have to fight Voldemort or DEs. But I rather doubt she ever thought she'd go walking into a situation that would almost surely put her into combat with them. Still, she and Ron are so tightly bound to Harry that I doubt it crossed their minds to let him walk into this alone.

Did Harry expect Ron and Hermione to go with him? I do not have my book, but I remember something that took place outside the forest, when they were debating about how to get to the Ministry with no brooms. Harry exchanges a look with Ron that indicates he knows Ron is thinking what he was thinking: that if he could have chosen any of the DA to go with him to save Sirius, it certainly would not have been Neville, Luna and Ginny. So ... did Harry assume that Ron and Hermione would be the only ones going with him ...or did he think he'd go alone? Edit: I forgot to say I think Tom and The One are both right.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 8, 2004 3:31 pm (#802 of 1227)

"...or did he think he'd go alone?" --- Solitaire

I just looked over the passage you mentioned, in that section it is clear that Harry was prepared and intended to go to the Ministry with Ron and Hermione. It suggested that there were others he would have taken with him, but they are not named. I would guess Fred & George had they still been at Hogwarts, and probably Lee Jordan, would have been welcome. Other than those I don't know who would have been on which list.

I believe that Harry was prepared to go it alone, but from the moment he told Ron of his vision it was, "How are we going to get there?" (OP, US hardcover, p. 731)

TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 8, 2004 3:38 pm (#803 of 1227)

"You are right, though, the DA has only studied individual tactics"...

Expelliarmus - "Right," said Harry, when she had sat down again, "shall we get practising then? I was thinking, the first thing we should do is Expelliarmus, you know, the Disarming Charm. I know it's pretty basic but I've found it really useful -" 'Oh, please," said Zacharias Smith, rolling his eyes and folding his arms. "I don't think Expelliarmus is exactly going to help us against You-Know-Who, do you?" "I've used it against him," said Harry quietly. "It saved my life in June." Smith opened his mouth stupidly. The rest of the room was very quiet.

I think if someone told me a charm called jelly-legs might either save or cost me my life I'd be a tad leary. They have already found out that the so-called silly little small things are unimportant... are! Constant Vigalance!

"The DA will be quite a different group in the next book." I agree, but they will be a "group", much as the Marador"s or the OoP. But they will be a "group". They have studied together, know how each reacts, they will be effective. The group name may change or disappear, but the group will remain.

Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 3:41 pm (#804 of 1227)

Thanks, Tom. I'm at school without my books, and my HP-reading students have gone for the day. Fred and George at the Ministry ... Hm. I know they are powerful and smart and would have gone at the drop of a hat ... but I sometimes wonder if they don't horse around a bit too much for their own good. Still, in a serious battle, I suppose they could certainly hold their own.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 8, 2004 4:07 pm (#805 of 1227)

"... but I sometimes wonder if [Fred & George] don't horse around a bit too much for their own good." --- Solitaire

We've seen them horse around in quidditch practice, but never in a game. I'd say the pair know when its time to deliver the goods.

Muggle Doctor - Nov 8, 2004 7:37 pm (#806 of 1227)

1) I think Fred and George would have made all the difference - they are very competent wizards, practically, and would have pulled no punches. They probably know things even Hermione (two years below them) doesn't.

2) The US Air Force's "Red Flag" training programme was built around the discovery that a combat pilot's chances of survival increase rapidly after he has lasted ten missions - this seems to be the level of experience which makes the difference. The principle is that you give the pilot ten mock missions that are as realistic as you can make them without the actual firing of missiles (although live bombs are sometimes dropped on mock targets). The nature of modern weapons makes this training environment easy to provide - missile shots can be simulated electronically, while a pilot who does not shake off his pursuer's radar lock after a set time knows that he has been the 'victim' of a gun kill.

At the end, all you get is a dressing down (rather than a pine box).

Red Flag graduates who went to the first Gulf War allegedly came back and said that the similarity to the training exercise was incredible - and that real combat had in fact posed them a LOWER number of immediate problems to solve (quantitatively at least). In other words, the exercise was more technically challenging than war.

TomProffitt, am I on the right track here?

3) Fortunately for Our Heroes, most magical attacks and defences are not lethal, and many are not all that harmful. Realistic practice can thus be had at no risk. Yes, they need to learn tactics more than they do spells.

For all his hopelessness, Lockhart did his pupils an inestimably great service by introducing them to Duelling in the DADA context, even if the real world isn't a formal duel with rules of conduct.

Having among the Defence Association several members who have survived a stand-up fight with Death Eaters can only increase the chances of the other members being more 'tactically aware' if they ever get into a real scrap.

4) I think it will stay the Defence Association from now on, and become an advanced study club. There is no need for it to be called Dumbledore's Army anymore (except as a mark of pride).

5) The only one who can seriously teach them tactics is Moody.

Sir Tornado - Nov 8, 2004 7:46 pm (#807 of 1227)

I don't honestly believe DA was formed to fight Voldemort; NOT offensively. DA was originally formed because:

1) Umbridge was not allowing them to practise spells

2) Voldemort had returned. It was, thus, imperative for the the students to learn to defend themselves!

3) The motive of DA was to defend against, not attack Voldemort

Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 7:55 pm (#808 of 1227)

LOL Muggle Doctor! I'm sure they know TONS of things Hermione doesn't know ... and probably never should! She would come unglued if she was aware of even half of the stuff they do! So would Mrs. W, most likely.

I agree about Moody, Muggle Doc. Didn't Dumbledore say he was usually able to bring them in alive? Then again, maybe the WW would be better off if a few of the hardcore DEs would slip behind the veil. Please don't throw dungbombs. I can't help feeling a few of them are almost as dangerous as Voldemort himself.

Solitaire

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 9, 2004 3:50 am (#809 of 1227)

Dangerous as Voldemort himself? *cough*Bellatrix*cough*

*sniff* Sorry, must go get a cough drop for that awful cough.....

TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 9, 2004 4:57 am (#810 of 1227)

I think Dumbledore had more than Bellatrix in mind when he said:

"Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters - and many of them are almost as terrible as he - were still at large, angry, desperate and violent."

Can I offer you a cough drop?

TomProffitt - Nov 9, 2004 2:05 pm (#811 of 1227)

"TomProffitt, am I on the right track here?" --- Muggle Doctor

You most certainly are. There are very similar results for units of the US Army which passed through similar training for their specialties.

"The motive of DA was to defend against, not attack Voldemort" --- Sir Tornado

Indeed. Yet, eventually the battle will have to be brought to Lord Voldemort, hopefully someone is considering that eventuality. (It does not seem to be a very Dumbledore sort of thing to do.) If all you do is defend, you will be defending until Lord V gets lucky. The war can only be reliably ended by taking the offense.

Sir Tornado - Nov 9, 2004 3:06 pm (#812 of 1227)

Indeed. Yet, eventually the battle will have to be brought to Lord Voldemort, hopefully someone is considering that eventuality. (It does not seem to be a very Dumbledore sort of thing to do.) If all you do is defend, you will be defending until Lord V gets lucky. The war can only be reliably ended by taking the offense.

And Harry's going to be the one to do it. With the help of OotP. I can;t see DD letting the DA go like that.

Solitaire - Nov 9, 2004 9:47 pm (#813 of 1227)

Harry will eventually have to take the offense, but I suspect he will begin defensively. In the past confrontations, Harry has been lured or--in the case of GoF--brought to Voldemort, and he has had to defend himself.

At some point--if he is ever to kill or vanquish LV--he is going to have to use an OFFENSIVE (Unforgiveable?) curse, and I wonder how that will affect him mentally and emotionally. He was unable to curse Bella and he was unwilling to allow Sirius and Remus to kill Wormtail--despite his knowledge of what the two of them had done.

Harry is so tender-hearted that I wonder if the only way we will ever see him cast an Unforgiveable Curse is if someone he loves is on the point of death at the hands of Voldemort or one of the DEs. What are others' thoughts about this issue?

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Nov 9, 2004 10:05 pm (#814 of 1227)

Harry's tender hearted, yes, most of the times... but, sometimes... he tends to lose control... (Aunt Marge, Draco Malfoy in OotP, cursing Malfoy on train in GoF). He can be rough if he wants to be... but he isn't as ruthless as Hermione or Ron can be.

Solitaire - Nov 9, 2004 10:48 pm (#815 of 1227)

Harry has not been OFFENSIVE with Malfoy ... just defensive. Malfoy has always attacked him first, I believe. As for Aunt Marge, I believe that is considered "emotional magic," and not really something that was in his control at the time. He did not point a wand at her and curse her. In fact, I've wondered, on occasion, if Aunt Marge's predicament might not have been Aunt Petunia's doing ... but that is an issue for another thread.

Sir Tornado - Nov 9, 2004 10:57 pm (#816 of 1227)

Harry has not been OFFENSIVE with Malfoy ... just defensive. Malfoy has always attacked him first, I believe.

That's not true. At the end of GoF on the train and after Gryffindor vs Slytherin quidditch match; Harry attacked Ron after only verbal provocatiom.

Don't get me wrong here; I'm NOT blaming Harry for anything, I'm just saying that Harry can certainly be aggressive and Violent when the situation calls.

Tomoé - Nov 9, 2004 11:57 pm (#817 of 1227)

Tornado, didn't you mean Draco instead of Ron?

Sir Tornado - Nov 10, 2004 12:19 am (#818 of 1227)

Yes, Draco, Draco, I meant Draco Malfoy!

Steve Newton - Nov 10, 2004 7:08 am (#819 of 1227)

On the issue of attacking Draco I quote Franklin Roosevelt.

"When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him." Radio talk, 11 Sept. 1941

I got this from the Stumpers listserv (for reference librarians)

TomProffitt - Nov 10, 2004 9:37 am (#820 of 1227)

Solitaire, there was only verbal abuse before Fred (or was it George) and Harry attacked Draco.

Harry is quite capable of dropping the gloves. Not quite as readily as Ron, but Harry doesn't mind mixing it up at all.

Solitaire - Nov 10, 2004 11:12 am (#821 of 1227)

This is one case, Tom, and I have to agree with Steve that Draco seemed a rattlesnake (apropos comparison for a Slytherin) poised to strike. In most if not all other confrontations, Draco is the instigator. True, Harry is faster on the draw and Draco generally winds up getting the worst of it. That sometimes happens to bullies.

Muggle Doctor - Nov 10, 2004 1:05 pm (#822 of 1227)

And it wasn't just Harry either - recall that Ron, Hermione and both Weasley Twins struck almost simultaneously.

I wonder what the actual effect of the DA's strike was at the end of OoTP - I begin to imagine all the curses sort of 'converging in the middle' and causing a mixed-effect 'explosion' that affected all three targets. Despite the mix of spells used, they all seemed to turn out the same ("giant slugs stuffed into Hogwarts uniforms").

Elanor - Nov 10, 2004 1:22 pm (#823 of 1227)

Maybe it is just as when you mix to many colours of gouache when you paint: all you have at the end is a kind of ugly greenish brown. Maybe it is the same for curses : when they are mixed, all you have at the end are ugly greenish slugs...

Annika - Nov 10, 2004 1:32 pm (#824 of 1227)

The hexes combined brought out their inner slug:)

Annika

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 10, 2004 4:38 pm (#825 of 1227)

.....or maybe that's just how they really look; they have to perform spells on themselves to make them look like normal humans.....*starts writing a fanfic*

Or they could be wereslugs!

Solitaire - Nov 10, 2004 10:15 pm (#826 of 1227)

LOL Annika! I like that--their "inner slugs" ... Very cute!

Detail Seeker - Nov 14, 2004 8:44 am (#827 of 1227)

One point for the Offensive/Defensive question:

We have to discriminate between tactical, operative and strategic offensive/defensive here. Strategic defensive means, that your aim in a political question, that is the kernel of a conflict,is just defending a position you already have. Operational defensive means, that you are in a defensive position during a part of a conflict (one poperation), though you might even have an offensive strategy, due to circumstances. Tactical defensive means you are in a defensive position in a single battle.

You can combine offensive and defensive positions at each level randomly and have situations, that make sense. You may be in a strategic defensive position (you want to defend the WW from Lord Voldemort), an operational offensive position (you try to hunt him down somewhere) and a defensive tactical situation (DEs are in a better position, so you have to defend yourself to stay alive).

DA was aimed for the defensive operational situation only. Tactically offensive spells were needed to survive (and already used by Harry, otherwise he could not have taught them) and taught.That does not change the character of the DA as an organisation intended for operational defence. Strategic aspects were mostly beyond the horizon of the founders, though .

Muggle Doctor - Nov 23, 2004 6:06 pm (#828 of 1227)

That does not change the character of the DA as an organisation intended for operational defence: Detail Seeker

Souldn't that be tactical defence, given that none of the DA as a whole ever expected to undertake planned missions? If the whole aim was to get them through the exams and keep them alive in a pickle (at least long enough for a qualified wizard to arrive and take the heat off), surely operational factors don't enter into it.<

Yes, they did for the MoM battle, but that was Harry and his inner circle, who are not representative of the DA as a whole, viz:

Harry - is the boy who lived, the only survivor of the AK, and the only unharmed veteran of three clashes with Voldemort.
Hermione - is the brightest witch of her generation.
Ron - Has already 'sacrificed' himself once (in the chess game, though he lived), and his courage is beyond question.
Ginny - Has survived possession by Voldemort.
Neville - Previously incompetent, but has risen to a level of ability that surprises everyone. Willing to undergo torture or worse to keep the DEs from winning ("Whatever happens, Harry, don't give it to them!")
Luna - while an unknown factor at present, there's more to her than meets the eye. Probably the least remarkable member of the MoM raid on the surface (sorry, Luna fans!) but can perceive alternative solutions, and her true abilities may come to the fore later.

Next to that, there aren't too many of the other DA members I'd rather have taken, or who had some special reason for going (apart, perhaps, from Susan Bones, who's lost family members to DEs).

TomProffitt - Nov 23, 2004 8:26 pm (#829 of 1227)

Don't sell Harry's ability as a teacher short. The only member of the DA I wouldn't have wanted along would have been Marietta (and I guess she was out of the DA then anyway).

Not only did Harry teach them well, but he won their loyalty. I think he would have done just as well with his "second stringers" as he did with his first.

Solitaire - Nov 23, 2004 9:20 pm (#830 of 1227)

One thing I found interesting about Luna, Muggle Doc, is that she did not seem to "rattle" as easily as the other kids. This could be the result of not comprehending the extent of the danger; or she could just be a totally cool cucumber under fire.

I agree with Tom that there are many who could have ably fought with Harry and the other kids. Harry thinks to himself says that Neville, Ginny and Luna would not have been his first choice to accompany him. I suppose Terry Boot and Anthony Goldstein (Ravenclaw) would have been good. And weren't the girls from the Gryffindor Quidditch team--Angelina, Katie, Alicia--also a part of the DA? They're strong, they're used to dodging the attacks by the beaters and bludgers ... They might be awesome in battle.

Solitaire

Muggle Doctor - Nov 23, 2004 11:19 pm (#831 of 1227)

Solitaire, yes I take your point about Luna. (Probably something I was trying and failing to think of!)

The ones who went were, admittedly, the ones who were available - but all were willing to put their lives on the line together with Harry. That in itself makes them exceptional.

I think this question won't truly be resolved until they get chatting to their colleagues at the start of sixth year, and people say:

"Bloody hell, we knew about Potter, but did Granger, Lovegood, the Weasleys and Neville, ESPECIALLY Neville, really do that?!!!"

dizzy lizzy - Nov 23, 2004 11:43 pm (#832 of 1227)

There will probably be a few shocked faces then at the first meeting of the DA in book six. Might even encourage all of the DA members to go out and learn as much as possible and give it there best when the time comes.

Detail Seeker - Nov 24, 2004 1:58 am (#833 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor, you questioned my calling the DA an organisation for "operational defence".

I thought about this for a long time. Perhaps we differ a bit about the scaling of "operational" and "tactical". I considered "tactical" in this field as the level of single spells cast. Offensive spells were taught ( e.g. "Expelliarmus", "Stupefy", "Petrificus totalis",...), so tactical offensive was part of the schedule. The battles fought, I considered to be the operational level. And there, no offensive actions were intended by the DA before the MoM-battle. This classification may, of course, be subject to debate. We would have to add the level of "fighting techniques" to the classification, then your remark would be correct and the classification would be closer to normal military standards.

Steve Newton - Nov 24, 2004 6:15 am (#834 of 1227)

In a fight I think that I would be happy to have Fred and George. Of course by the time of the battle they weren't actually members of the DA, were they? Does the DA now have a force outside of Hogwarts?

Muggle Doctor - Nov 24, 2004 12:41 pm (#835 of 1227)

Detail Seeker: it all hangs on definitions, doesn't it? We are probably both right, in our own ways, but I have to give you the benefit of knowing the definitions better than I do!

TomProffitt - Nov 24, 2004 8:33 pm (#836 of 1227)

Detail Seeker, the mission to save Sirius Black at the Department of Mysteries is a Tactical Offensive (which Murphy's Law turned into a Tactical Defensive), based in an Operational Defensive. Right now I think only Dumbledore can say whether or not they are in a Strategic Defense or Offense (I'm inclined to go with the Defense, but we don't know everything the Order is doing).

Does this fit within your definitions?

Muggle Doctor - Nov 24, 2004 10:06 pm (#837 of 1227)

I would think that with several powerful death eaters in Azkaban (at least temporarily), now is possibly the time to capitalise on the other side's weakness and hit them hard.

This may mean that sundry unpleasant things start happening to Slytherins. Roll on, Book 6.

Solitaire - Nov 24, 2004 10:35 pm (#838 of 1227)

You are certainly right, Muggle Doc, about the kids being exceptional. I think in our "me-oriented" society, when anyone is willing to put his life on the line for someone else, he (or she) is pretty exceptional.

Paulus Maximus - Nov 26, 2004 7:52 pm (#839 of 1227)

"or she (Luna) could just be a totally cool cucumber under fire."

Like Hermione?

Solitaire - Nov 26, 2004 8:20 pm (#840 of 1227)

I really don't know, Paulus. Hermione is pretty "collected" in most situations. Luna is just ... different. Given a choice between Hermione and Luna as my partner, I'd choose Hermione in a heartbeat. I think she is incredibly knowledgeable and very tuned in to what is going on around her. She and Harry, for example, almost seemed to function as one in the battle of the DoM. She seemed very able to read--or "sense"--what he was going to do next.

I do not want to minimize Luna's intelligence or ability in any way--as I said, she could simply be a totally cool cucumber under fire--but there is a "spaciness" to her that I find a little scary. Yes, I realize that is true of many brilliant people (a few of whom I actualy know). It's just--well, I would want to know that my partner was on the same wavelength as I was, and I would probably feel more confident with Hermione backing me up!

Solitaire

Edit: I suppose I just think Hermione has a better "fix" on the realities before her. She might be a little bit more "tense" than Luna, but I think it is due to a better understanding of the seriousness of things--if that makes sense.

Czarina II - Nov 27, 2004 7:08 pm (#841 of 1227)

Luna isn't a team player unless it is absolutely necessary. She never had to be. Hence, she would likely survive quite well on her own, but unless everyone else with her obeyed her unquestioningly, they might be doomed.

Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 7:45 pm (#842 of 1227)

Interesting perspective, Czarina. She is definitely "unusual." The scene near the end of the book--where she is looking for her possessions and tells Harry about people taking her things and hiding them--really reminded me strongly of several students I've taught during my career. Nearly every year I have a student who reminds me of Luna. He or she is almost always very intelligent but marches to his/her own somewhat "off-beat" drummer.

Usually these kids get very upset at the way they are treated by their peers, even though their unusual mode of dress, behavior, and comments are usually the catalysts for any confrontations. Sometimes, though, I do get the genuine Luna types who seem to be quite at home in their own skins. They know they are "different," and they wear this "different-ness" boldly. They view those who don't like or understand them as the ones with the problems.

I'd never thought of it before, but they aren't usually team players. They tend to want to run the show, which is why they often wind up without partners on projects. Unless people are willing to let them totally call the shots, they don't function too well.

Luna didn't really seem to mind Harry calling the shots, although we did not really see her fighting in close combat with him, the way Hermione and Neville did. Or am I forgetting things (quite possible)?

Neville continues to be the one who really earned my admiration in the Ministry battle. I can't wait to find out how his adventures are received by his Gran and Uncle Algie. Will they praise him, or will she be totally ticked that he broke his dad's wand? I'm hoping for a little encounter with Gran on the Hogwarts Express at Platform 9 3/4 when the kids meet up in the fall. I'd like to see if she has anything positive to say to and about Neville in front of his friends this time.

Solitaire

Magical Max - Nov 27, 2004 10:37 pm (#843 of 1227)

I think Neville's Gran and uncle , while horrified about Neville going one-on-one with a bunch of DE's, would be 1. relieved that his powers are fast approaching those of his parents instead or remaining something of a squib. 2. secretly proud that he managed to stand up to the one DE responsible for putting his parents into St Mungo's. OK , he didn't get revenge on Bellatrix but he refused to give up , even after getting hit by the Cruciatus curse, and for a teenager in his first ever battle, he's doing pretty good so far !

Paulus Maximus - Nov 28, 2004 3:16 am (#844 of 1227)

You're not forgetting things, Solitaire. Harry, Hermione, and Neville (Hmm... Where have I seen those three together before?) got separated from Ron, Luna, and Ginny. The two groups pretty much fought their own battles, and we only saw the former group in action.

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 3, 2004 6:58 pm (#845 of 1227)

I agree, I was truly amazed at how quickly in OotP Neville began to realize his potential. I tend to agree that gran Longbottom my be fearful of losing Neville after losing Frank.

I would assert that the core trio has expanded at least to a quartet and now includes Neville if not to a sextet including Ginny and Luna.

Mara Jade - Dec 13, 2004 7:45 pm (#846 of 1227)

I agree the six will almost certainly be a lot closer after the MoM battle - they each saved eathother's lives numerous times, and they will no doubt all be affected by it in some way and have only eachother to talk to about it. As well as that, after the WW's treatment of Harry in OoP, it is likely they will be somewhat alienated by the rest of society or students at school, despite the fact that now they have to believe them.

I have to say that I was also extremely impressed with Neville - particularly in the moment after he had suffered the cruciatus curse but still yelled at Harry not to give them the prophecy - he was willing to suffer again to stop his enemy. If I was his Gran, for me that would be an act worthy of high praise - it is, if I am not mistaken, exactly what his parents done did when they were confronted by the Lestranges and exactly what she told Neville to be proud of them for.

Personally, I can't wait to see the progress Neville makes with his new confidence and a new wand.

Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 14, 2004 3:16 am (#847 of 1227)

also in sorcerers stone I think it was mister ollivander who said that a wizard or a witch will get worse results if they use someone elses wand, and since Neville was using his father's old wand he might get alot better results from preforming magic with the wand he was destined to use.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 18, 2004 6:19 pm (#848 of 1227)

Luna has already seen a horrible death up close, her mother' s. That might account for her coolness in battle. I agree Solitaire, I would rather have Hermione. At least you would know she understood you. I think Neville will have a growing importance in the books. I love the development in him. I agree Mara Jade, I'm looking forward to Neville having a wand of his own. LPO

TomProffitt - Dec 18, 2004 6:25 pm (#849 of 1227)

Let's not over rate the importance of a new wand, our information about wands came from a wand salesman.

Solitaire - Dec 18, 2004 6:45 pm (#850 of 1227)

LOL Good point, Tom! As I've said elsewhere, I suspect that not all of the wands used by the escaped DEs were purchased by them. I'll bet more than a few were "comandeered" wands that had belonged to DE victims from the last war ... yet they manage to be just as deadly with them.

What I mean is that I can see taking the dead victim's wand as part of the AK ritual, sort of like a "battle souvenir," and stashing it away. The DEs' own wands would probably have been snapped when they were tossed into Azkaban ... or so one would hope! I realize this is just speculation, but I think it would account for how so many escaped DEs happened to get their hands on wands. Surely Lucius (or anyone else, for that matter) couldn't just stroll into Ollivander's shop and buy ten new wands without raising suspicion.

Back to Neville ... I think the new wand could have important implications for him more because it will be his wand. His grandmother continually compared him unfavorably to his dad, and that had to be more than a bit demoralizing. Maybe the new wand will bring Gran a new way of looking at Neville.

Solitaire

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 18, 2004 8:41 pm (#851 of 1227)

Interesting point Solitaire. I'm sure wands outlast wizards. Lucius probably has several of his ancestors wands laying around. He probably keeps them with the wands left over from the last war. DE may collect the wands of their victims as trophies. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2004 9:02 pm (#852 of 1227)

I'm sure Mr. Borgin from that fine upstanding firm of Borgin and Burkes would be glad to supply surplus wands, no questions asked.

Mikie

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 19, 2004 8:31 pm (#853 of 1227)

LOL Mikie. I'm sure that fine establishment has plenty to offer. LPO

OkieAngel - Dec 21, 2004 11:23 pm (#854 of 1227)

Wow, so many posts, so little space...

There have been so many excellent (and otherwise) points made here, that I feel a bit abashed at adding my two knuts worth, but here goes anyway...

I think that officialy the DA will continue, but more in the study group aspect than in an organised militant way that meets to devise strategies and tactics. I just can't see JKR totally breaking off the theme that the adults will still view HRH and the other DA members as "just kids." That said, I think this opens the arena for another secretive, and perhaps smaller, group to meet and do just what the grown-ups are still refusing to allow them to do. I mean, I can so picture Hermione dissecting every battle that has ever been written about down into practical tactical uses. See, those lessons about the giant wars were not all in vain. Plus, I can also see this as something Ron would be good at, with his strategic brain. All in all, I think there is still plenty of need and desire for the group to continue.

On another note, as much as I would love for DD to teach DADA, I don't think it will happen, but I loved the idea of having guest teachers in. Kind of teaching by committee, that would be cool.

I apologise if this rambles a bit, I've just spent the last four hours trying to catch up with the threads, I've been away for too long.

Steve Newton - Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am (#855 of 1227)

Okie, officially the DA doesn't exist. I think that we're in a war. It will become more military. And actively, I think, recruit new members.

Solitaire - Dec 22, 2004 10:31 am (#856 of 1227)

If there is a new DADA teacher--and it seems there must at least be a different one than Umbridge--perhaps he or she will not forbid the kids from practicing and learning defensive magic. I certainly think the kids must be viewed differently after the battle in the DoM, don't you?

Dumbledore took Remus, Sirius, James, Lily, et al in to the Order when they were "just kids," so to speak--only a couple of years older than our Trio. I think he has had ample opportunity the past five years to see that Harry & Co. are not going to be content to simply sit on the sidelines and "be kids" while the war is going on. He has more sense than that.

Dumbledore, I think, already knows that either the kids must receive direction and "proper tutelage," so that any action on their part is helpful and worthwhile--or they will likely go off in their own direction and possibly get into more trouble than they otherwise might. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Edited

scoop2172000 - Dec 22, 2004 11:22 am (#857 of 1227)

Dumbledore already recognizes that Harry's extraordinary, given the things Harry accomplished from first year onward -- that Harry's escaped Voldemort four times now (and Harry still underage!), which is more than the three escapes Harry's parents had made.

Dumbledore knows, too, how much of a role Ron and Hermione have played in Harry's triumps. Dumbledore even went as far as suggesting to Hermione that she use the time turner.

By now, too, Dumbledore must know about the bravery of Luna, Ginny, and especially Neville in the Ministry of Magic.

It would seem to me that Dumbledore would take the DA under his tutelage, letting the loyal students train to become, when they come of age, full members of the Order of the Phoenix.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2004 11:24 am (#858 of 1227)

I agree Solitaire it seems that DD has almost been allowing Harry to get into situations which he must work to get out of. And now with the loyal supporters that Harry has DD had better change his attitude because that the DA is not going to sit by and allow Harry to go it alone.

Mikie

TomProffitt - Dec 22, 2004 1:58 pm (#859 of 1227)

In 1942, a young man aged 17 (the same age as Hermione at the start of term), joined the United States Army, with in three years he had won every award for valor the US Army offered (some of them twice), and had advanced from Private to Captain. He remains the most decorated soldier the US Military has ever had. He later became a movie star and was nominated for an Oscar (I don't think he won it).

The DA members, as history shows, are not too young to contribute in a substantive way in the war.

Tessa's Dad - Dec 22, 2004 2:14 pm (#860 of 1227)

I’d never made that connection. Great thought Tom! I was guilty of thinking the kids were too young to really help in the war.

By the way, I’m a big fan of that man. He was a true Hero in every sense of the word.

Solitaire - Dec 22, 2004 2:55 pm (#861 of 1227)

Exactly, Tom ... and everyone else! Based on Dumbledore's comment to Harry in their conversation at the end of OotP--"... I watched from afar as you struggled to repel dementors ..." (there is more to the quote)--I think we can infer that Dumbledore has been quite aware of what Harry has been up to the past five years. From Harry's vantage point in his 5th year, Dumbledore may have seemed to be elsewhere and uninvolved, but this has apparently not been the case.

And if Dumbledore has been watching Harry as closely as he claims, he can't possibly have failed to notice the contributions of Ron and Hermione, in particular. He even rewarded Neville's behavior at the end of the first year--and he has commented on the animosity between Harry and Draco--so he has obviously been watching other students, as well. Much of what Harry has accomplished during his time at Hogwarts has been a team effort, with Ron and Hermione playing important roles in Harry's triumphs--and Neville, Luna and Ginny joining the ranks in book 5.

I believe Dumbledore is well aware of those young people at Hogwarts (especially those DA members) who will prove to be valuable assets in the coming war, despite their youth. I certainly believe he knows the value of Harry, Ron and Hermione, and I do not expect to see them sidelined by him just because of their youth. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Muggle Doctor - Dec 22, 2004 4:17 pm (#862 of 1227)

Harry, Ginny, Hermione, Luna, Neville and Ron marched into McGonagall's office.

"We want to join the order," they chorused as one.

"You can't," McGonagall answered. "Much as I admire your determination, you're too young and inexperienced."

"I'm not having that," Harry replied, cuttingly. "Even if you won't let us fight, at the very least we have a right to be informed."

"My dear Mr Potter..." McGonagall replied, but Harry cut her off.

"No, Professor, I won't hear of it. The order's habit of keeping secrets got Sirius killed, and it very nearly got all of us killed as well. Either you keep us up to date on what's going on, or we'll assume that being told nothing means you're doing nothing... and we'll fight on our own."

A year ago, Professor McGonagall would not have taken such brazen insolence from anyone, even the Boy who Lived, but Harry was now so sure, so confident and (above all) so calm, that she had no option but to acquiesce.

"Very well," she said. "I will make representation to Professor Dumbledore and the others." She turned back to what she was doing. "Though heaven only knows what Professor Snape will say. You may go now."

Tomoé - Dec 22, 2004 5:43 pm (#863 of 1227)

I don't think McGonagall will take the decision, she'll be more likely to send them to Dumbledore.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2004 7:05 pm (#864 of 1227)

The only one that will put a battle is Molly - "NO, NO, NO they are too young, I won't stand for it."

Mikie

dizzy lizzy - Dec 22, 2004 9:23 pm (#865 of 1227)

It's seems to be almost a priviledge to watch Harry and his friends grow up and by extension of that thought, watch the DA accept and ask for responsibilty and grab it with both hands.

Lizzy

Solitaire - Dec 22, 2004 11:26 pm (#866 of 1227)

I am not sure I see anything as organized and "formal" as the scenario Muggle Doc presents. Subsequent to the Battle of the DoM, however, I believe the kids will simply be viewed as sort of "junior members" of the Order.

It may be that instead of giving them specific jobs to do--or worse, trying to prevent them from finding out what is afoot--the adults in their world will realize that it makes more sense for the kids to know what is happening in order to prevent them from jumping the gun and getting themselves into unnecessarily dangerous situations. Hopefully they will understand that NOT telling Harry what is happening is the surest way for him and some of the other kids to wind up in the middle of another situation like the Battle of the DoM.

I think Dumbledore will have to admit to all (including current Order members) the fact that attempting to "shield" Harry and the kids the past year was not the best direction to have taken. I also believe he will be instrumental in helping Molly to understand that the kids are going to be at risk even if they don't take any action at all, and it's better to have them prepared and knowledgeable than have them wind up in a life-and-death situation with no idea how to proceed.

As Jo has said, this is a war and there are going to be casualties. Sadly, one or more of our "loved ones" in the story are probably going to be among them. I hope I am wrong and all of the casualties come from the "other side" ... but I think this is not a realistic expectation. Sad

Solitaire

dizzy lizzy - Dec 23, 2004 12:31 am (#867 of 1227)

Just a little off topic. My brother is a soldier and did a tour of peace keeping (in a civil war zone) and his comment that he wrote to me in his Christmas letter that year (1996) has resonated ever since:

"War is a nightmare and civil war is a nightmare in hell..."

Somehow I think for us, we are so close to some characters, that it will seem that way to some of us.

Lizzy

Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 5:49 am (#868 of 1227)

Solitaire, I think that the OOTP may try to make the DA a 'junior organization,' but, I don't think that it will stick. Harry has a large independent streak (loose cannon is the phrase that comes to mind), and the DA is pretty sure of itself. They will be hard for even Harry to control. They know that they are good.

Solitaire - Dec 23, 2004 10:40 am (#869 of 1227)

Steve: They will be hard for even Harry to control. They know that they are good.

Do you really think the kids will be hard to control? I would hope the Battle of the DoM might have given them a good dose of reality. Yes, they performed admirably, given their ages and the circumstances. But they still have a lot to learn, and there is no telling what might have happened had the Order not shown up when they did.

Despite Snape's assertions to the contrary, Harry has always been sufficiently humble to freely admit that he has had help escaping Voldemort--even when the kids didn't want to hear it. Hopefully, Harry will not be foolish enough to think the prophecy means he must act as a "lone ranger" and attempt to tackle Voldemort on his own. He is going to need the support of the Order now more than ever, and I hope he realizes this.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 10:48 am (#870 of 1227)

It seems to me that a good dose of reality doesn't always help 16 year olds.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 23, 2004 3:50 pm (#871 of 1227)

I would think allowing the DA into the Order would be a good idea. It is an excellent way to keep an eye on them. DD lost his best informer on what Harry is up to, Sirius.

Prolonged adolescence is a creation of the 20th and 21st century. There is documented evidence of people HRH age engaging in battles, as Tom so well pointed out.

Now that Fred and George are out of school I wonder if they are part of the Order? They are a link to the DA. LPO

Muggle Doctor - Dec 23, 2004 5:33 pm (#872 of 1227)

A question which is still unanswered from the end of OotP is how much the peripheral members of the DA (not the Magnificent Six) know about the Ministry battle. One can assume that, in the tradition of Book 1: "What happened between you and Voldemort is a secret, so of course the whole school knows," but nothing has actually been said.

The only danger I perceive is that the peripheral members will have the attitude "Well, they got through it all right, so we should be able to look after ourselves!" If there is anything I hope the Magnificent Six carry back to their DA fellows, it is how absolutely terrified they were that they might not get out of it alive. Now that there are five extra Hogwarts students who know "what it's really like facing V... Voldemort" (or his henchmen), however, I don't see this becoming a problem.

I wonder how openly acknowledged (or not) this is among professional soldiers, for those who (think they) have been trained to the hilt to come out at the end of their first battle, realising how little they actually knew and how lucky they were to survive the imperfections in their knowledge. Harry and his friends are in this regard more like conscripts; the true "professional soldiers" of the Wizarding World are those who became Aurors either before the First War (and had plenty of time to refine their craft) or during it (and learned their trade in the crucible). Those who have become Aurors since are in an unenviable position: the main danger is "known" to have disappeared, except to those who are in the Order or its immediate inner circle, and any activity they expect to meet will by definition (Fudge's definition) be occasional Death Eaters who were missed, or just the usual criminal riff-raff of the Wizarding World (the aurors' "background activity"). I wonder what this must be doing to the intensity of their training.

How do you separate the expertise of the professional soldier who has trained for years before going to war, vs. the conscript who, in a protracted conflict (such as both World Wars), survives several battles and improves his skills through experience rather than training? I recall the regular troops in WW1 being somewhat dismissive of the Kitchener recruits and conscripts initially, but an adequate battle performance must surely level that playing field, and Harry has now had more direct clashes with Voldemort than any other living wizard (we have not been told how many times Dumbledore has faced him).

TomProffitt - Dec 23, 2004 6:10 pm (#873 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor, the best answer I have found to that question can be found in Guy Sayer's The Forgotten Soldier. It is the true story of a 16 year old Alsatian boy who finds himself a soldier in Hitler's Wehrmacht on the Russian Front. Audie Murphy's To Hell and Back is also good, but is harder to find.

I've talked with veterans of WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and the short "easy" victories in such places as Grenada, Beirut, Panama, and Iraq. Each era produced soldiers with a very different outlook on war. I think it is the veterans of the long difficult campaigns like WWI & II, and Korean who see war as you described it. The later wars have been too brief (even the one year tours in Viet Nam) to see the type of changes you suggest.

With out combating Death Eaters every day I don't believe the DA members will gain enough experience to greatly change their skills and tactics. Proper combat training takes a lot of long hard months. What Harry is doing in the DA is better than nothing, but it is insufficient for war. (However, I doubt the Death Eaters are getting very good training either.)

Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 6:35 pm (#874 of 1227)

Let's not forget that D.A. is (or was) intended for defense only. I don't see them going toe-to-toe with DeathEaters on purpose. I don't see Dumbledore inducting them into the Order. The Order was very emphatic about that, if you recall.

In fact, I have my doubts the Order itself is going to survive as such. The Ministry is going to be deploying it's own forces. The last thing anybody needs is somebody's private militia wondering around like a loose cannon. People get killed that way.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 23, 2004 7:23 pm (#875 of 1227)

The Order was around during the first WW and while you are correct about private militia Perfect Marcus, they could serve as a kind of special forces group who take on specialized tasks or assaults.

I also believe that if the DA is to grow they need to learn those offensive moves to disable their opponents. One of the reasons I believe that the Fab Six were so effective in the MOM battle was they threw off the DE's with no offensive attacks. All they did was try to protect themselves. They never launched any attacks(except for Harry).

Mikie

(edited by me to remove personal references)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 24, 2004 2:29 pm (#876 of 1227)

I think part of the reason the DA members were successful at the MOM is the DE had orders to get the prophecy. Harry figured that out and used it to protect his friends. I think Harry realized that they were totally unequipped to fight full grown wizards. LPO

Solitaire - Dec 24, 2004 4:01 pm (#877 of 1227)

I think Harry realized that they were totally unequipped to fight full grown wizards. LPO

I agree with you about this, LPO. I feel Harry has always been pretty honest about what he does and doesn't know. This is why he became so upset with Hermione when she first approached him about teaching the DA. I feel he has a pretty astute grasp of his shortcomings with regard to lack of experience and tactical knowledge. I simply believe that, in the case of Sirius, he was willing to lay his life on the line anyway, because he believed that--as limited as his knowledge and abilities were--he was Sirius's only hope. In his mind, he had exhausted all other possibilities. Harry loved Sirius and was willing to hazard everything to save him. In other words, he behaved like a Gryffindor.

Solitaire

Eric Bailey - Jan 2, 2005 3:58 am (#878 of 1227)

Some thoughts (including referring to things discussed months ago, as I'm new, here)...

I agree that the DA plotline was to establish the Sextet, but... JKR made a point of adding that scene on the train, where DA members that weren't part of the Sextet took on Draco and his goons when they tried to attack Harry. So, this may still be a larger group that will be centered around the Sextet, the vets, as it were.

As far as keeping the Sextet out of the war, they're already in it. Three of them have been fighting Voldemort, for years. The Sextet has fought most of the battles in the second war, so far. No way the rest of the Sextet is going to stand by and not watch Harry's back. As for the rest of DA, they've got the Death Eaters In Training to deal with. They can't really escape this war. Now, granted, they're at a tactical disadvantage, but do we know, for sure, none of them would be willing to use Unforgivables on Death Eaters since the enemy is more than willing to use it on them? Sure, Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs probably wouldn't, but can you be too sure about the Ravenclaws? And if some Slytherins join in...

There was discussion a while back about a faculty sponsor, and there was agreement that Snape just wouldn't work. But, what about Flitwick? He's popular and respected by all the students. He's a dueling champion, which means there's a lot of things he could teach them, some not approved for DADA class. Plus, he's Head of Ravenclaw. Gryffindor and Hufflepuff hate Slytherin. Slytherin hates Gryffindor. Gryffindor and Slytherin look down on Hufflepuff. But, all respect Ravenclaw, and Ravenclaw doesn't let House rivalries get in the way of forming friendships. Even Slytherins might warm up to something Flitwick's involved with.

Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 9:24 am (#879 of 1227)

The Hufflepuffs made a respectable showing on the train, and several of them did join the DA. Harry also liked and respected Cedric, who was a Hufflepuff. There were several 7th-year Gryffindors (Angelina, Alicia, Katie) in the DA with other Hufflepuffs, and Harry & Co. are now 6th-years.

With a strong feeling of camaraderie and support for the Hufflepuffs they know existing among this key group of older Gryffindors as well as some of the key 6th-year Ravenclaws (Terry Boot, Anthony Goldstein, Padma Patil, etc.), treating Hufflepuffs as second-class citizens may become a thing of the past.

If this does prove to be the case, these three houses could form a bond that is pretty formidable. It might force the individual Slytherins to declare their allegiance once and for all--out in the open. Are they Death Nibblers, or are they going to join forces with the other three houses and fight Voldemort and his forces? Just my two knuts, of course ...

Solitaire

Edit: If the above scenario does happen in some form, things could get extremely sticky for Snape, as a Slytherin Head of House who, we believe, is on the side of the Order. Ditto for any non-DE Slytherins. It could be rough on them.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 2, 2005 9:42 am (#880 of 1227)

It is a step in the right direction. The Sorting Hat was very clear on what the houses need to do. The DA promotes that. Hopefully some of the Slytherins will be interested in becoming part of the DA. I don't think all of the Slytherins will automatically support Voldemort. Eric I think Professor Flitwick would be an excellent sponsor. Or maybe the new DADA teacher. LPO

Muggle Doctor - Jan 3, 2005 1:12 pm (#881 of 1227)

Sorry, Eric Bailey: clarification please. Where does it say that Flitwick is a duelling champion?

LPO, I do not think he will become the next DADA prof. The teachers tend to stay in their own positions and not migrate between them. If anything, the best choice for DADA among the current staff is Dumbledore himself, because as far as we know he doesn't actually take any classes at the moment and thus would be free to step in and teach a whole subject.

Steve Newton - Jan 3, 2005 1:55 pm (#882 of 1227)

Doc, in COS when the dueling club is first mentioned the kids speak of hearing that Flitwick was a dueling champion. I don't have my books but will try to remember to check this evening.

Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 2:02 pm (#883 of 1227)

Professor Flitwick's entry in the Lexicon mentions him as dueling champion.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 3, 2005 3:25 pm (#884 of 1227)

"I wonder who'll be teaching us?" said Hermione as they edged into the chattering crowd. "Someone told me Flitwick was a dueling champion when he was young [/b]- Maybe it'll be him." COS pp 188 US

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 3, 2005 4:35 pm (#885 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor my post was not clear. What I meant was the new DADA teacher might be the sponsor for the DA. Sorry about that! LPO

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 3, 2005 8:03 pm (#886 of 1227)

Ok, my take. The DA will continue and if we have a new DA teacher, the DA will grow and develop until, and if that teacher gains their attention and respect. I think if the DA continues, it will sponsor itself. In spite of all Harry has been through, just as in every book, there are unanswered questions. Not only from the fans, but from Harry's classmates. Choices, biggie! If Harry had accepted Malfoys handshake in PS, would story have been different? If Harry hadn't been nosey (which he got from Anut Pet, lol? If Harry had an inner ear infection, could he fly? If he refused to go to Hogwarts?

Back to the DA. I think they will band together because they realise their own vurnabality. Harry will feel overloaded, can't deal with right now...but will. I think a whole lot of what will determine Harry's frame of mind will be the support of the DA members as the summer vacation goes on. Birthday party would be nice, sweet 16 and all that, but Harry is beyond that now. He feel's he's a marked man. I think as far as party goes, he'd be better off with a 17th coming of age (officially).

Rather interesting...we are all marked. We all have our time to be here, and all have our own time to die. Sorry for the run on, but I like living. Harry, like us all, has choices. For the better good, I do believe the DA will live. Harry does need to learn a few more spells though :-)

Muggle Doctor - Jan 4, 2005 1:26 pm (#887 of 1227)

Thanks, all.

No surprise, really - his opponents' magical bolts probably sailed right over his head! And one tends to underestimate a much smaller opponent.

(Imagines Flitwick bouncing Lockhart off the walls).

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 4, 2005 6:10 pm (#888 of 1227)

TBE great post. Harry goes on and on about having to do so much himself in OoP. Now he can see that he is not alone. Not only does the Order support him but more importantly the DA. They stood up for him at the MOM and on the train. This is his peer group. Hopefully Harry will be able to live through all of this. LPO

Scales - Jan 5, 2005 12:21 am (#889 of 1227)

I apologize ahead of time if this has been discussed, but I had not kept up on this thread and it's too much to read thru.

After watching PoA I had a thought. Hermione tells Harry that "only very powerful wizards can produce a Patronus (per Snape)." Then is JK telling us that Harry really isn't that powerful if others from D.A. can produce them? Any thoughts (or post numbers)?

wickedweasley - Jan 5, 2005 12:42 am (#890 of 1227)
Edited by Jan 5, 2005 12:48 am

I think this is in reference to the coporial (sp?) patronus he conjured to save Sirius and the strength of it to repel so many Dementors. As Harry himself later states it is very different casting a patronus when faced with Dementors compared with in a brightly lit classroom. Even taking that in to account there were as I recall only Hermione and Cho, who managed this successfully.

Scales - Jan 5, 2005 1:21 am (#891 of 1227)

Yes, only Hermione and Cho are mentioned to produce one, but it says when Dobby entered, "the few Patronuses people managed to conjure faded away..." That leads me to believe there are more then just the two.

But more to my point of my question, if you can conjure one in a brightly lit classroom, why can't you conjure one in the face of a Dementor or other evil? Yes, you are frightened, but knowing that you can produce one would help in the face of fear and most likely you would manage to do it. Even Harry managed to get some of a Patronus on his try to save Sirius and himself (but remember the fact that he was more affected by the Dementors then others). Does powerful mean more focused? A better mind set? Is Dumbledore powerful because he knows alot or because he can focus better on what spell he wants to cast?

Maybe I'm just trying to get the definition of a "powerful wizard".
Sorry if I'm making no sense, it's late, I'm tired.

scoop2172000 - Jan 5, 2005 4:38 am (#892 of 1227)

I think it's an indicator of Harry's stregnth as a wizard that he's powerful enough (at least in the area of DADA) to teach the subject while still in his mid-teens, even being able to instruct students on how to conjure a patronus, something that is well beyond the ordinary wizarding level.

We know that Voldemort had been powerful enough in his own teens that he was able to create the diary in which he preserved his 16-year-old self.

wwtMask - Jan 5, 2005 5:32 am (#893 of 1227)

Well, Hermione and Cho may have been able to produce corporeal patroni, but the circumstances under which they did so was far different than the various times Harry has. At the age of 13, Harry produced a patronus so powerful that it chased away a hundred dementors. Meanwhile, Cho and Hermione's fizzled out after a bit of commotion from Dobby. I'm not saying they aren't competent and strong witches, I'm saying that, in comparison, Harry must be a good deal stronger, if we accept that, to conjure a patronus, one must be a powerful wizard.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 5, 2005 10:46 am (#894 of 1227)

I believe a great deal of difference exist between a brightly lit room and a dark alley with 2 dementors bearing down on you. If you can't think of a happy thought you can't create a patronus and happy thoughts seem to be very rare in the presence of dementors. Harry's ability to produce a full patronus also seemed to impress the members of the Wizenmagot at the trial.

Mikie

Prefect Marcus - Jan 5, 2005 10:50 am (#895 of 1227)

If memory serves, Hermione was more impressed by the fact that creating a patronus was "very advanced" magic, more than it being "very powerful" magic. There is a different.

I wonder how "powerful" an otter patronus is? Of course, as I have said before, you don't want to be on the receiving end of an angry otter. :-)

Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 10:58 am (#896 of 1227)

Muggle Doc: one tends to underestimate a much smaller opponent. Very true.

I agree with both Scoop and Mask. It is no reflection on either Cho or Hermione, as this was their first try at producing a Patronus. However, the real test of their ability will be what happens when either or both must produce a Patronus capable of repelling a dementor.

Remember that Harry's stag first appeared at the Quidditch game when Malfoy & Co. were impersonating dementors, and it was big and strong enough to scare them. It was much more difficult for him to conjur it when he faced the actual Dementors. Notice, however, that when lives truly depended on it--Sirius's (when he went back in time to save him) and later Dudley's--he was able to produce it.

Frankly, I think Hermione will prove powerful enough to be able to produce a Patronus if it is required. She is intelligent not only in Wizarding terms but in Muggle terms, as well. She is knowledgeable about Muggle and Wizarding issues alike, and she seems able to implement things she has learned in the past, even under fire. She has been able to recall information that has saved the Trio's life in a pinch since the beginning of their adventures together. I don't know about Cho. She is very emotional, and that could prove to be her undoing in a crisis.

Solitaire

Muggle Doctor - Jan 5, 2005 5:38 pm (#897 of 1227)

The DA is probably large enough to reflect the abilities of the school as a whole. Thus you will have a small core of powerful and/or capable junior wizards as well as the also-rans. Hermione's ability to conjure a patronus is no surprise, given her mastery of something as advanced as the proteus spell. Cho is less of a known quantity but on the other hand, she is a Ravenclaw: given the admission criteria, that alone has to count for something.

I know intelligence isn't everything, and Harry (who teaches the DA and who has survived four clashes with Voldemort) certainly isn't the most scholastically outstanding student in the school, but I think it's no surprise that Cho and Hermione in particular were the ones who got the patronus spell right (under any circumstances).

What one must also remember is the circumstance under which Harry learned the spell from Lupin in the first place - a Boggart is no dementor, but I get the impression (from both book and film) that the Boggart is a sufficiently close mimic to be vulnerable to whatever counter-spells suit the object/thing it is impersonating. It was certainly real enough to Harry.

Of course using a Boggart for patronus training is not possible in the DA because only Harry's Boggart (that we know of) takes on the requisite form. I have yet to work out what happens when a Boggart attacks two people simultaneously. I can picture Harry seeing the dementor while Neville, standing next to him, says "What do you mean? All I see is Professor Snape!" (Not that much difference IMHO, except that the patronus won't repel Snape).

By analogy, banging away on a firing range is one thing, but shooting back accurately when nasty things are flying back at you is surely another (never tried it, hope not to). All the other DAs have done is 'bang away on the range'. Harry has at least had the realism provided (if we continue the analogy) by someone firing blanks over his head while he practised shooting back.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 5, 2005 5:43 pm (#898 of 1227)

The fact that Harry drove off hundreds of Dementers is significant. There mere presence sucks happiness from a persons soul. You have to be strong to do that. I took that scene to mean Harry can learn/do anything he wants if he has the confidence. He is a powerful wizard but does not understand it yet. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 6:11 pm (#899 of 1227)

I don't think a boggart "attacks" two people simultaneously. It is a shape-shifter, and I believe it actually assumes the shape of the thing that frightens the one on whom it is focusing at the specific moment.

Remember Remus said the class would have an advantage over it when it first came out of the cupboard, because there were so many kids in the class it would not know what shape to assume. He said that's why it is best to have company when attempting to deal with a boggart--because it can be more easily confused.

Solitaire

Julia. - Jan 5, 2005 7:51 pm (#900 of 1227)

OK, here's what Jo has to say on the subject.

"It's always best to have company when you're dealing with a boggart. He becomed confused. Which should he become, a headless corpse of a flesh-eating slug? I once say a boggart make that very mistake--tried to frighten two people at once and turned himself into a half slug. Not remotely frightening."(PoA, ch 7, pg 134, US)

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TomProffitt - Jan 5, 2005 9:08 pm (#901 of 1227)

"I don't know about Cho. She is very emotional, and that could prove to be her undoing in a crisis." --- Solitaire

I don't think "very emotional" is necessarily a good description of Cho. I am an extremely unemotional person (wouldn't be surprised if were described as "cold" or "cold hearted"), but the death of my 12-year-old nephew to cancer made me quite emotional at times. Cho lost her boy friend very suddenly and unexpectedly. Of course she's going to be emotional at times, we can't adequately judge what she would be able to do in a crisis because we have never seen her in one.

A recurring theme I have heard from veterans is that you can never tell who will be the hero ahead of time. My Platoon Sergeant and I (this was when I was a Squad Leader) used to bull about who would win The Medal in our unit. Thing was, you never knew for certain.

EDIT: Audie Murphy (America's most decorated war hero) was turned down from every branch of service except the Army, and they almost didn't let him into the Infantry.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 5, 2005 9:22 pm (#902 of 1227)

Of the DA members I think the sextet who faced the DE's have proved themselves as being capable of being resistant to the pressure brought to bear in a a crisis. Additionally I think George, Fred, Alicia, Katie, and Angelina would be among the next group to be proved resistant to pressure. The members involved in quidditch will I think prove heartier than those who are not. Those who are not with the exceptions of Hermione, Neville and Luna will have a more diifcult time in a crisis.

TomProffitt - Jan 5, 2005 9:27 pm (#903 of 1227)

"The members involved in quidditch will I think prove heartier than those who are not." --- Nathan Zimmerman

In Band of Brothers Ambrose quotes at least one veteran who remarked on how some of the ones you expected to do well wilted in combat. Athletic competition, while exhilarating, challenging, and stressful, is not life threatening. Combat veterans talk about being constantly afraid.

I've done alot of sports, but I've never feared for my life while playing them.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 5, 2005 10:10 pm (#904 of 1227)

Tom Proffitt said:

I've done a lot of sports, but I've never feared for my life while playing them.

He obviously hasn't been playing the right kind of sports!

Honestly, what child, after eleven years of apparent 'normality', could hop on a broomstick and manoeuvre like a World War 1 fighter several dozen metres above the ground, with rabid leather balls chasing them, and not have moments where they felt like wetting their pants in terror?

Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 10:48 pm (#905 of 1227)

Honestly, what child, after eleven years of apparent 'normality', could hop on a broomstick and manoeuvre like a World War 1 fighter several dozen metres above the ground, with rabid leather balls chasing them, and not have moments where they felt like wetting their pants in terror?

LOL Muggle Doctor! I love your description of Quidditch!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2005 10:57 pm (#906 of 1227)

At 150 miles an hour I might add...on a Firebolt.

Quidam - Jan 6, 2005 6:37 am (#907 of 1227)

Additionally I think George, Fred, Alicia, Katie, and Angelina would be among the next group to be proved resistant to pressure. The members involved in quidditch will I think prove heartier than those who are not.<

Cho also plays Quidditch and I am not sure if she would cope well under pressure.

If Angelina is as serious about fighting the dark side as she is about Quidditch (she went over Umbridge's head to get permission to reform her team) she could prove to be very capable in battle. Here is something I noticed; When the DA is first formed, Angelina makes it very clear that she does not want it to interfere with Quidditch. But later (after the Death Eaters escape from Azkaban) when Harry put's double the effort he had before into the DA, we don't see her complaining about it.

Steve Newton - Jan 6, 2005 7:36 am (#908 of 1227)

I think that we may be underestimating Cho. When she sticks by Marietta, that snivelling little...(I digress), it shows that she has significant strength of character, to stick by her friend. It was not a popular position. Even though Harry was there when her boyfriend was killed she stuck by him. Apparently under pressure. I think the key will be whether or not she returns to the DA.

Solitaire - Jan 6, 2005 10:24 am (#909 of 1227)

That is a good point, Steve. I hadn't considered things from that angle.

scoop2172000 - Jan 6, 2005 12:35 pm (#910 of 1227)

I don't see Cho returning to the DA. Between Marietta (who Cho has been standing up for) and Cho's new relationship with Roger Davies, I think Cho would be very uncomfortable in Harry's pressence.

I think the decision to leave the DA would be a mistake on Cho's part and would have consequences she ought to have foreseen.

John Bumbledore - Jan 6, 2005 1:04 pm (#911 of 1227)

Quidditch, DA Combat Training?
Doc, I have to both agree with you and echo Solitaire's comments. Your phrasing, "Honestly, what child, after eleven years of apparent 'normality', could hop on a broomstick and manoeuvre like a World War 1 fighter several dozen meters above the ground, with rabid leather balls chasing them, and not have moments where they felt like wetting their pants in terror?" is perfect.

I would point out that the quaffle is leather, while the two bludgers are iron. Ah, well that is perhaps not based on cannon but on the Harry Potter Quidditch game for Nintendo game cube booklet. I currently have 54 Quidditch cards and have won the house cup as each of the four house teams. . .

Back on topic, yes one would fear death from a fall off your broom or a bludger hit. And that could be one of the "best available" *stress* training exercises for DA members short of real *live* fire experience.

As for the patronus, and the strength of the wizard or witch. I also remember it being called "advanced" magic. I have the sense that like a candle dispels the dark but is vulnerable to wind, so is a patronus, if by wind you consider the dementors sucking away happy feelings / emotions. So in calm conditions with no fear or "emotional winds" a smart witch may conjure a full patronus. Also remember that Harry's stag dispersed once it was no longer needed, so Dobby's arrival and the dissolution of Cho's and Hermione's patroni should not be too significant.

So we have heard about DD patronus at the match, strong enough to chase many dementors away. Harry also drove off many dementors; I equate these to flame thrower level of power behind the magic. And if you gave a flame thrower to an otter, I am sure the dementors would flee quickly, as well.

<)B^D= (John) Bumbledore.

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 6, 2005 1:06 pm (#912 of 1227)

I think scoop is right; Cho will be too uncomfortable around Harry and the other DA members to return. I hope it doesn't prevent her from honing the skills she might need to survive. It would be a mistake for her to leave, but I also hope the DA realizes their importance and makes it clear that she--and anyone else wanting to hone their DADA skills--are welcome in the fold.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 6, 2005 1:24 pm (#913 of 1227)

I stand corrected on the Bludgers (been a while since I read the books/saw the films). Other than that, I think the meaning is clear.

In addition, unlike most of the rest of the Wizarding World, Harry (and possibly Hermione) doesn't know about wizard children's apparent ability to take knocks that would pulverize muggles. So he would have far more to fear from falling off his broom than any of the others, even at low speed & height. (Hermione probably knows through her reading, but it is something else to convince her instincts that a fall from a tree, say, is not going to break an arm or leg.)

Eric Bailey - Jan 6, 2005 4:04 pm (#914 of 1227)

Well, as to Cho, I think a line from Casablanca applies, the one about how the problems of three people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Now, granted, a lot of folks tend to think women will let their romantic complications overwhelm everything else, but I can't see JKR subscribing to that view. Cho's a Ravenclaw. When it comes down to it, her mind will be what decides her major actions. Just because she wasn't over Cedric's death when she entered into a relationship with Harry doesn't make her hopeless. Harry isn't getting over Sirius too quickly, I'd imagine. If anything, taking down Voldemort will be very personal, to her.

As for Slytherins, they do have a mind reader who's loyal to Dumbledore as Head of House. He'd almost certainly be screening the Slytherin students, and knowing who could be trusted. He could carefully nudge a Blaise or Theodore in the right direction, and recommend people to Luna or Hermione (Luna would be most open of the Sextet to Slytherins on the good side, and Hermione is capable of putting aside her own prejudices for the greater good).

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 6, 2005 4:12 pm (#915 of 1227)

Cho and Harry are very young. At that age, when the initial angst is over, teenagers get over it and move on to the next crisis. They change friends and enemies on a regular basis. I can see Cho and Harry being fine with each other. After time apart it will not be as uncomfortable. I have no guess on Cho going back to the DA. LPO

TomProffitt - Jan 6, 2005 8:36 pm (#916 of 1227)

Well, I seem to be out voted on the issue of Quidditch as an indicator of combat readiness, or preparation.

I strongly disagree. A sport with a remote possibility of death is not the same as an occupation with a high probability of death for either you or your teammates.

Perhaps people should re-read what Harry had to say about fighting Lord Voldemort. I don't recall him comparing it to Quidditch.

Solitaire - Jan 7, 2005 12:50 am (#917 of 1227)

Weighing in on Cho ... Ginny confirmed on the train that Cho and Michael Corner are now an item. He is in the DA, and if it doesn't bother him to be around Harry, perhaps it won't bother Cho, either. We have already been told that "Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt at all."

These kids are still young enough to be pretty resilient. It's possible that, after a summer apart, Cho and Harry will be able to meet again as friends in the fall. I hope so. They're going to have important things to do, and they all need to stand together and try not to let personal issues cloud things.

Solitaire

The giant squid - Jan 7, 2005 2:58 am (#918 of 1227)

I agree with you, Tom, especially on one point: someone who has not actually faced death can't understand what it is like to face death. Harry understood what they were up against because of his experiences in the graveyard; the rest of the DA thought they knew what they were getting into, but had a romanticized view of combat/conflict.

--Mike

scoop2172000 - Jan 7, 2005 5:55 am (#919 of 1227)

Following up on my prediction that Cho will be too uncomfortable to return to the DA and the decision having unforeseen circumstances ...

When Cho was crying in the Room of Requirement (the night she and Harry ended up kissing) she wondered aloud whether Cedric would still be alive if he knew what Harry knows about defensive magic.

The DA afforded Cho the chance to learn the defensive magic Harry knows. She made some progress, because she could produce a corporal Patronus (her swan.)

I can't help but think that her quitting the DA and thus quitting defensive magic tutoring, she might end up very vulnerable during the Second War. Perhaps she and her family will be harmed, or worse, killed. Such a death would further devastate Harry and perhaps further fuel his desire to get revenge.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 7, 2005 6:52 am (#920 of 1227)

I do not think that Quidditch in and of itself is sufficient to prepare one for combat. Although, I do believe that majority of Quidditch players are heartier and more resilient that the majority of the non-Quidditch players with exceptions of Hermione, Neville and Luna.

TomProffitt - Jan 7, 2005 7:03 am (#921 of 1227)

"Although, I do believe that majority of Quidditch players are heartier and more resilient that the majority of the non-Quidditch players with exceptions of Hermione, Neville and Luna." --- Nathan Zimmerman

I can't think of two wizards prior to OP we'd be less inclined to think of for combat or Quidditch than Neville & Luna. (Of course Luna wasn't pre-OP, but if she had been .... )

There are qualities that Quidditch players possess that are quite obviously helpful to a wizarding soldier, but they are not all that a soldier needs. We have seen very few of the students in life threatening situations prior to OP, and I think that's the only place we're going to get a true sense of who will be valuable to the DA & the Order in combatting the DE & Voldemort.

Steve Newton - Jan 7, 2005 8:13 am (#922 of 1227)

TomProffitt, you are indeed correct. Quidditch players are trained to work as a unit under stressful conditions. Not even close to life and death struggle but good training.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 7, 2005 8:25 am (#923 of 1227)

Tom, Neville reminds me of Uylsses Grant. Grant was someone who everyone including his parents deemed incompetent. As a young child it was believed that he was mentally handicapped. During, his adulthood most people believed had a poor intellect this was the reason why whatever he tried to do while in civilian life was a dismal failure. But, during the U.S. Civil War he proved himself to be an excellent commander on the battlefield who refused to yield a field.

Neville has been viewed in the same manner by the majority of people including his Gran. Among the adults that he has conntact with only Dumbledore and Lupin see Neville's potential. In the DoM Neville demonstrated that their faith in him was justified in the DoM he continued to fight and refused to yield even after his wand and nose were broken that is the mark of someone who has potential. I think he will play a key role in the D.A. in Book Six.

TomProffitt - Jan 7, 2005 9:05 am (#924 of 1227)

Draco Malfoy serves, I think, as character foil for Neville, and perhaps other DA members. Here you have an intelligent young athlete. He does have to be a good athlete for Slytherin to be challenging Gryffindor for the Cup every year. He's a leader of the kids in his class. All of the traits we expect from our Gryffindor Quidditch players that would make him an excellent DA or Order member.

Yet, we've had a few glimpses of how he reacts to stress. When the chips are down Draco becomes unable to make a decision, bound by his fears and uncertainty. He seeks to attack only from ambush or overwhelming strength (which I commend tactically), because his many earlier failures have made him too timid to choose any other method.

Draco is an example of why I think we haven't seen a wide enough range of activity to accurately predict how the various DA members in specific will perform in combat. In general I have great confidence in the DA members.

wwtMask - Jan 7, 2005 11:12 am (#925 of 1227)

Draco actually strikes me as a better commander than fighter. He has shown time and again his ability to plan and coordinate effectively against the trio and in favor of Slytherin. He has no qualms against "dishonorable" tactics. He goads his adversaries into acting the way he desires. He exacts psychological and non-physical punishment. He generally acts instead of reacting and takes the offensive as much as possible. He generally shows patience and restraint, preferring to fight battles on his own terms. Compare this to Harry and the trio. Nine times out of ten, when they are in conflict, which side tends to be reactionary? Most of the time Draco and company come off better because Draco tends to force conflict in terms that favor him. This will have an impact on DA/DN conflicts, assuming that we have actual DNs.

The DA may have more advanced magical ability but there are ways of hurting others without using wands. Tactical training wasn't exactly a priority for the DA, so the abilities of the leaders to coordinate their team will determine how the two groups fare against one another.

Solitaire - Jan 7, 2005 11:22 am (#926 of 1227)

Draco strikes me as a bit of a coward. This could be a problem in real fighting. I'm curious to see what he would do in the presence of Voldemort--aren't you?

Solitaire

timrew - Jan 7, 2005 1:45 pm (#927 of 1227)

We had an example of what Draco would do when confronted by Voldemort in PS/SS.

When he is in the Forest with Harry and they come across Quirrell/Voldemort drinking the unicorn's blood, Draco turns tail and runs away.

I think you're right, Solitaire. He's a coward, but then, aren't all bullies?

Eric Bailey - Jan 7, 2005 2:09 pm (#928 of 1227)

Add to that, Malfoy's not exactly cunning, is he? He's blundering, always falling on his face every time he tries to do something to the heroes. He and his Goon Squad couldn't even keep an unarmed Ron, Neville, Ginny, and Luna contained for a few minutes. Malfoy thinks he SHOULD be the leader that everybody fawns over, because of who his family is. He feels he is entitled, and doesn't have to actually work for anything. He expects everything to be handed to him on a silver platter, and everyone to act as they are "supposed" to, and can't handle it when things don't fall into place for him. Every time something doesn't go his way, especially when the heroes overcome and humiliate him yet again, he doesn't stop to reconsider what he's doing wrong. It can't be HIS fault, after all. He's a Malfoy. It's just the rest of the world isn't behaving properly, people not recognizing their proper place, etc.

Solitaire - Jan 7, 2005 7:19 pm (#929 of 1227)

LOL Eric! I'd forgotten about the incident in Umbridge's office. Gosh, what I wouldn't give to have a drawing of Malfoy dealing with the Bat-bogey Hex. hehe Priceless! Does one exist anywhere in fandom?

You know, those six kids had a busy night, didn't they, what with hexing and escaping from the Inquisitorial Squad, riding invisible animals to London, and fighting off Death Eaters ... In fact, upon mature consideration, I think McGonagall was kind of chintzy with those points she awarded the kids. Neville, Ginny, Luna and Ron should have gotten half again as many points each for getting away from the Goon Squad. Harry and Hermione should have received double the amount for ridding Hogwarts of Umbridge! Don't you think?

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 7, 2005 7:44 pm (#930 of 1227)

I agree Solitaire. Peeves should get some points also. The DA Special Forces had a productive and action filled afternoon and evening. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 7, 2005 10:13 pm (#931 of 1227)

Eric Bailey your analogy of Malfoy made me think of the north in the civil war. The first two years the south was winning because the north was giving commands to people based solely on family and money. It didn't matter if you knew anything about fighting a war or not(much to the misfortune of thousands of northern troops). It was only after command positions were given to proven soldiers that the North was able to turn the tide aganist the south. I hope that Malfoy or Voldemort has ever studied the civil war.

Mikie

wwtMask - Jan 10, 2005 6:37 am (#932 of 1227)

I think you guys are selling Draco a bit short here. True, Draco and his cronies were overpowered by five members of the DA, but, considering that they didn't really know how much better the DA members were due to 6 months of training, can they really be blamed for letting the DA members escape? Draco gets the better of Harry most of the time because he knows which buttons to press and how to align himself with the right people. In a face to face fight with Harry, he'll lose every time, but Draco seldom gives Harry a chance to fight one on one. Draco constantly defines the terms of their conflict to work to his advantage.

Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 7:28 am (#933 of 1227)

Draco seldom gives Harry a chance to fight one on one

I think that's the point. Draco's a coward and a bully. He doesn't fight or duel--he ambushes. There's a difference. In addition, he always makes sure he and his thugs outnumber the opponent(s). Unfortunately for him, he has usually miscalculated his quarry.

wwtMask - Jan 10, 2005 10:06 am (#934 of 1227)

I'm certainly not arguing that he's honorable. I was just agreeing to what Tom said about giving him credit for good tactics (or something to that effect). His tactics are not nice, not brave, not honorable at all, but certainly effective.

scoop2172000 - Jan 10, 2005 10:52 am (#935 of 1227)

I beg to differ whether Draco's attack tactics are effective. As a result of one attack, Draco got turned into a ferret by fake Moody/Barty Jr. As a result of the attempted ambush on the Hogwarts Express in OotP, Draco ended up as a slug.

Steve Newton - Jan 10, 2005 10:54 am (#936 of 1227)

Those would certainly have to be considered as setbacks, I would think.

katrira - Jan 10, 2005 11:33 am (#937 of 1227)

Draco's main handicap is his narrow focus. He may be a talented wizard but he zooms in on his target while failing to watch his flanks. Thus he underestimates his opponent's strength, whether in numbers or abilities.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 10, 2005 11:38 am (#938 of 1227)

He also likes to gloat. In CoS when he zapped Harry in their duel. Instead of keeping his guard up, he was quite proud of himself and let Harry zap him back. Or am I remembering so movie contamination.

Mikie

Eric Bailey - Jan 10, 2005 12:14 pm (#939 of 1227)

Yeah, you have to look at the results, and Malfoy's results haven't shown someone who's good for much of anything. He doesn't feel the need to learn from his mistakes and improve, because any time anything goes wrong, it's someone else's fault, as a Malfoy MUST be perfect at all times. Anything that challenges that is a defiance of the natural order of things, from his point of view. He even refuses to accept that it's his father's actions that landed him in prison.

Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 12:25 pm (#940 of 1227)

Question: Do you think he relies too much on his "back-ups" (Crabbe and Goyle)? Have we ever really seen them do much of anything--other than Crabbe practically strangling Neville in a choke-hold in Umbridge's office and both of them helping Draco to impersonate Dementors in PoA? It's possible that he puts too much confidence in their abilities as Wizards; we don't really know what sort of abilities they possess just yet. It will be interesting to see what happens with them in Book 6.

Solitaire (Sorry ... this is off-topic, but it relates to the Draco posts.)

wwtMask - Jan 10, 2005 12:29 pm (#941 of 1227)

Ok, are we only talking about Draco literally attacking Harry? I'm talking about is entire conflict with Harry. In physical confrontation he comes off pretty badly, but that's a very limited set of engagements. Meanwhile, Draco has had a hand in many situations that have gone against Harry. He does many things to get at Harry, particularly in the last 3 books. We must remember that you don't need a wand to hurt someone.

TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2005 1:02 pm (#942 of 1227)

"Ok, are we only talking about Draco literally attacking Harry?" --- wwtMask

I certainly haven't been in my analysis of Draco.

Draco's won quite a few encounters against Harry & Co, such as the Densuego! attack (although it did turn out okay for Hermione in the end). He does quite a good job of getting Harry into trouble with Snape. Lately, the pendulum is swinging in Harry's favor, but if memory serves (it may not) Draco won more than he lost in the earlier books.

The first thing I was taught by the US military was that if you don't have to fight, don't. The second was if you do have to fight, make certain that you win. Of course, there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, but winning an unfair fight is generally a lot better than being dead. That's about the extent of my approval of Draco's attempted tactics.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 10, 2005 2:28 pm (#943 of 1227)

Solitaire-Crabbe & Goyle are probably the only ones who will follow Draco with unquestioned allegiance. You would think that even Crabbe & Goyle would get tired of being turned into various slimy creatures as a result of Malfoy's incompetence.

Mikie

Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 7:02 pm (#944 of 1227)

You'd think so, Mikie. It's that allegiance that leads me to question whether or not their brains are fully functional. Every time they have followed their fearless leader, they've wound up the worse for it.

I'm also straining to remember ... have they ever actually said anything? I mean have they had any dialogue in the books? The most I can remember are a few grunts and some knuckle-cracking. Or am I just blocking their witty and sagacious banter from my mind?

Solitaire

Muggle Doctor - Jan 10, 2005 7:14 pm (#945 of 1227)

TomProffitt,

I never meant to indicate that Quidditch was good material for sorting out good soldiers

However I will stand by my opinion that it is better than most muggle sports, especially for those born to or (like Harry) raised by Muggles, who are unaware of their resistance to hard knocks and would tend to exaggerate the risk of getting killed playing it.

At the very least, it tests the ability of a small group (about the size of an infantry squad in some armies at some times) to react to events which happen at high speed (brooms do over 150mph, which is quite fast in the narrow confines of a quidditch pitch), and which involve physical threats to one's person (including attacks by intelligent agents - the other players - and hard-to-spot random aggressors like bludgers). In addition, there is the need to escort/protect the seeker while (s)he concentrates on intercepting the Snitch.

To me, many of these teamwork elements (need for rapid and accurate decision making, defence against physical threats, reconciling multiple goals in the face of opposition or interference etc.) have definite parallels in military training.

I do acknowledge that it is "not the same thing."

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 10, 2005 7:14 pm (#946 of 1227)

LOL Solitaire. I don't remember much witty and sagacious banter from the goons! I wonder if the Death Nibblers will form their own anti-DA club? If the DA continues they will want to counter it with something. LPO

Amilia Smith - Jan 10, 2005 7:24 pm (#947 of 1227)

Solitaire: According to Marcus, Draco, Pansy and Flint are the only Slytherins with speaking parts.

Mills.

Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 8:11 pm (#948 of 1227)

Come to think of it, we haven't heard a peep from Millie or Warrington, either, have we? They are mostly around to strong-arm people, or so it would seem. I sure hope Theodore and Blaise can carry on an intelligent conversation. Hm ... perhaps this should go over to the Slytherin thread. LOL

Muggle Doc, I certainly think there are some elements of Quidditch that would seem a bit like being "under fire." The rogue bludger that attacked Harry in his second year ... sheesh! Flying on a broom with that thing on his tail must have been like those "dog fights" we saw in Star Wars.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 10, 2005 9:14 pm (#949 of 1227)

The only word I can remember for either of the goons Solitaire is "Cool" when they find the doctored muffins in CoS.

Mikie

Eric Bailey - Jan 10, 2005 11:45 pm (#950 of 1227)

Malfoy: So, my latest cunning plan...

Crabbe: Oh dear...

Malfoy: We walk up to the Sextet and insult them... Then, we attack!

Goyle: Um, Draco, old chum...

Crabbe: We've been thinking...

Malfoy: Oh, HAVE you?!! Who's the brains of this outfit?!!

Goyle: Yes, that was our area of inquiry.

Crabbe: It seems every time we follow one of your plans, it ends badly, for us.

Goyle: Quite. Being transformed into a gigantic gastropod was more humiliation than I could bear.

Crabbe: Indeed. At least, previously, it was you, alone, who was transformed into that albinic variety of polecat.

Goyle: I truly regret that we followed in our fathers' footsteps and asked to be sorted into Slytherin, instead of Ravenclaw, where the Sorting Hat intended to place us.

Crabbe: Now, instead of being recognized for our intelligence and wit, we are percieved as mindless cretins, all because of our misplaced loyalty to you, Draco. So, we are no longer going to follow you into yet another disasterous scheme.

Goyle: Nor will we continue to do your homework for you.

Crabbe: Do you suppose, in the interests of keeping this conversation on topic, Potter's group could use two extra minds and pairs of hands?

Goyle: I was wondering the same thing. We could apply our cunning minds, AND beat people up for them. I must admit, as barbaric as it is, I DO rather enjoy the physical aspects.

Crabbe: Takes the edge off of being brilliant and misunderstood...

Draco: Oh, right... Like they'd accept you...

Goyle: Yes, I was thinking of that, how to demonstrate our change of heart.

Crabbe: We could pound Draco.

Goyle: Excellent suggestion! Shall we simply bruise him, or should we break bones?

Crabbe: I think we should break bones. Not too many, of course, because that would be needless brutality, but just enough to demonstrate our sincerity...

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Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:23 pm

katrira - Jan 11, 2005 10:11 am (#951 of 1227)

Bravo Eric!

scoop2172000 - Jan 11, 2005 12:24 pm (#952 of 1227)

LOL Eric, though I did have trouble envisioning Crabbe and Goyle using any word that has more than two syllables. Humiliation has five syllables: that's a big word for a guy who probably speaks Troll (point and grunt).

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 11, 2005 5:04 pm (#953 of 1227)

LOL I love the Ravenclaw point Eric. LPO

Eric Bailey - Jan 11, 2005 11:21 pm (#954 of 1227)

Thanks! Intellectual!Crabbe&Goyle were fun to write. Not as fun as SurferDude!Snape would be, but fun. Smile

timrew - Jan 12, 2005 3:29 pm (#955 of 1227)

Well done, Eric! I think I like your version of Crabbe and Goyle better than the book ones.

Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 7:09 pm (#956 of 1227)

Personally, Eric, I'm waiting for Snape ... the Tango Czar. Edit: On second thought, perhaps he is more likely to be an Apache dancer.

wwtMask - Jan 13, 2005 5:40 am (#957 of 1227)

Haha, Severus Snape, Hogwarts teacher by day, world class competetive ballroom dancer by night!

Eric Bailey - Jan 13, 2005 4:30 pm (#958 of 1227)

And that explains Snape's rage. The British Wizarding World is so uncultured. He can't find a Ginger to his Fred, and it frustrates him. He was grumbling throughout the Yule Ball, watching the Hogwarts students' pathetic attempts at dancing, being completely shamed by the Beauxbatons exchanges showing his school's students for the clumsy oafs they are.

Catherine - Jan 14, 2005 3:32 pm (#959 of 1227)

LOL.

He can't find a Ginger to his Fred, and it frustrates him. --Eric Bailey

Perhaps this is true, but I have it on good authority that he's found his Gina. And perhaps, given the discussion about his dental hygiene, his gingivitis.

Anyway, back to Dumbledore's Army, if we can be so kind.

Liz Mann - Jan 17, 2005 4:06 pm (#960 of 1227)

Okay, I haven't read this all the posts on this thread, but I can see Catherine's note "Anyway, back to Dumbledore's Army, if we can be so kind" as I type this. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but here's my theory about the DA.

Is it really a coincidence that the group called themselves Dumbledore's Army? I think that they're going to have to play a role like that at some point. As of yet, Hogwarts has remained untouched by Voldemort in his plans for world domination. As Hagrid said in book 1, he never tried taking over the school, not even at the height of his powers. I don't think that's going to last. If Dumbledore dies in this next book (which a lot of fans are speculating), then what's to stop Voldemort attacking the school? And who's going to defend it? Most likely, Dumbledore's Army! It stands to reason, doesn't it? Not only because of the name, but if Dumbledore died then the trio are bound to suspect an attack, and there is no way they are going to sit back and let the one safe haven within the wizarding world be taken by the Dark Side. They're going to fight back, but they can't do it alone, and they don't need to, because they have a defense group right at their fingertips which they themselves established. Plus, it ties in with what the Sorting Hat said about Hogwarts needing to be united from within to defend against external foes. I also think that some Slytherins are going to have to join the DA. They need all the house traits in order to win - courage and daring, wit and intelligence, talent and hard work, and cunning and determination.

Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 6:17 pm (#961 of 1227)

Liz Mann - Plus, it ties in with what the Sorting Hat said about Hogwarts needing to be united from within to defend against external foes. I also think that some Slytherins are going to have to join the DA.

And which Slytherin is going to join? Hmmmmmm, let's think.

It is going to have to be a fairly promiment one. Low-status thugs such as Millicent, Crabbe, or Goyle would not have much of an impact. It needs to be someone with clout, someone with status, someone you wouldn't expect.

Draco? It is a possiblity, but Rowling has pretty much ruled out him reforming.

Ted Nott? Perhaps, but we know so little about him. It wouldn't have the same impact as somebody whom we have gotten to know very well as a bad person.

Hmmmmm, Any ideas? :-)

Pansy, maybe?

Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 7:35 pm (#962 of 1227)

LOL Marcus! You just can't resist! Frankly, it might be fun to see Bella and Millie duke it out! Of course, it would have to be sans wands. I think Millie prefers a more "hands on" approach.

I agree that some Slytherins are going to have to join the DA, if Hogwarts is to prevail against the assaults of Voldemort and his army of supporters. The problem is ... which Slytherins are "man enough" to join? Any Slytherins who might join--or attempt to join--would be setting themselves squarely against Draco and the Nibblers. I'm wondering if some "underground" rumblings will be felt within Slytherin, as a few brave souls try to determine where the majority stand on the question of Voldemort--before making any move to join the DA. Draco and his goons obviously believe they have Head-of-House support, or they would not act as they do, IMO.

I honestly cannot see any single Slytherin we know right now making an open move to the DA for fear of reprisals from the Goon Squad. Unless the loner has the support of others within his or her House, switching houses seems the only feasible way--unless it becomes the consensus that the majority of Slytherins will stand with Dumbledore and the other three houses against Voldemort.

Before anyone stops to point out that just because kids aren't DA members doesn't mean they are Nibblers who support Voldemort ... I know that. As things stand now, however, I believe everyone will have to make a choice. I'm not sure people will be able to adopt the "purebloods, yes, but Voldemort, no" stance. I'm not sure that will be an option anymore. I believe that those who choose to stand against Voldemort are going to have to accept and align themselves with Muggle-borns, Half-bloods, and other magical creatures ... on an equal basis. To refuse will be to give credence to "the other side." JM2K, of course ... and I could be WAY off base.

Solitaire

Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 8:12 pm (#963 of 1227)
Edited by Jan 17, 2005 8:13 pm

Actually, I think it makes a great deal of sense for it to be Pansy. She is very popular among the Slytherins. She lead them in their cheers (jeers) against Ron. She is always running around with a fairly large group of Slytherin girls. She seems to their unoffical leader. With her, Dumbledore recoginized her inate leadership by making her Prefect.

In the case of Draco, I think he was made Prefect not because of any natural leadership, but because he was the most prominent Slytherin boy of his class. If you think about it, it was the same reason Dumbledore first thought of Harry but settled with Ron. Neither one of them in the first four books had really been what you would call natural born leaders. But they certainly stood out over Seamus, Neville, and Dean.

So, if any Slytherin we know is going to go up against Draco and the Nibblers, the one that makes the most sense is Pansy. She has her own powerbase independent of Draco. It will allow her to lead the rebellion against the creeps.

I Am Used Vlad - Jan 17, 2005 8:14 pm (#964 of 1227)

Ted Nott? Perhaps, but we know so little about him. It wouldn't have the same impact as somebody whom we have gotten to know very well as a bad person. Marcus

I tend to agree with this. Someone like Nott might be welcomed into the DA, but a high profile "baddie" would cause dissension among the ranks.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 9:19 pm (#965 of 1227)

We really know very little about any of the Slytherin students. We know little about any of their families backgrounds with the exception of the Nibblers. And I doubt that any of them will go over to DD's side. The most we may be able to hope for is passive denial of Voldemort's actions. Sorry Marcus, I don't mean to offend but I just can't see IMO Pansy doing anything that would lessen her power base within Slytherin house.

Mikie

Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 10:34 pm (#966 of 1227)

Mickey,

If not Pansy, then who?

Eric Bailey - Jan 17, 2005 11:29 pm (#967 of 1227)

Theodore seems the most likely. This is a character that JKR has developed, but has always had his big establishing scene cut. She'd written a scene set at Malfoy Manor in two of the books, but it was cut due to length, and not being vital to those particular books. Basically, this is someone in Slytherin who Draco views as a peer, even though Theodore's smarter, but is his own person, who isn't going to just follow the crowd.

As it is, all we've seen of him is his father's a Death Eater, and he's the Slytherin who can see thestrals, meaning he witnessed someone die (likely, his mother).

Kerrie-Louise - Jan 17, 2005 11:52 pm (#968 of 1227)

From what I can gather most of the Slytherins are bullies who rely on their parents influence and their houses reputation to get by. They are also mostly cowards. If LV actually came along do they think they are going to be brave enough to follow his orders? Do they think they are powerful enough to warrant his attention? The answers are probably no. I don't think Draco is really evil like his father and as much as he said he hoped Hermione would die I don't think he would actually do it himself. He seems to concentrate on getting people into trouble mainly. Maybe it isn't so strange to believe that Draco and the others would unite with the DA to protect the school - and their own skins!

Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 12:57 am (#969 of 1227)

I believe you are underestimating the level of Draco's hatred and possibly the extent of his evil. I'm not sure he has the power or the ability to take down Hermione in a fair fight ... but when did he ever fight fair? He has no scruples, and he will ambush if he must. He has a big axe to grind--after all, he has been thwarted every time he has tried to get Harry--and I look for him to make his move soon. I think he will attempt to take out the entire Trio at some point, either individually or collectively. I also think that the DA members who stepped forward to defend Harry will become targets in Book 6. Having Umbridge gone from Hogwarts will make it a bit more difficult, but I'm sure Snape will continue to assist him--not overtly, of course ... but Snape's behavior toward Harry and the Gryffindors really does enable Draco and his thugs to harass and persecute them. JM2K, of course. I realize others love Snape.

Solitaire

GryffEndora - Jan 18, 2005 8:51 am (#970 of 1227)

Prefect Marcus, I very much wanted to be able to post a reply that would nix your Pansy theory, but I think you may be on to something. I did a quick search on flower meanings which I'm sure have been discussed elsewhere before. Lily: purity, majesty; Petunia: resentment, anger; then Pansy: thoughtful reflection, loving thoughts, merriment, thoughts, love. The first two fit so nicely into the story, but Pansy's definitions seem way off, unless there is much about Pansy we've yet to learn, and so, I think you may be right, unless her loving thoughts are about Draco. Hmmm..., I will say you've opened my mind to the possibility. Incidentally Lavender means distrust & devotion so I'll be keeping an eye on her as well.

Weeny Owl - Jan 18, 2005 8:56 am (#971 of 1227)

Why does it have to be one person, and why should anyone from Slytherin care?

We didn't know until OotP when Umbridge stopped all clubs that there was a Charms Club. If Hogwarts can have Charms Clubs and Gobstones Clubs, and if anyone from any house participates, then why would it matter if someone wanted to be part of a Defense Club?

When it was a secret that had to be kept from Umbridge, membership was tricky, but if a Defense Club continues, but is now an open entity where anyone can join, then I can see quite a few Slytherins we're not familiar with wanting to be part of it.

In order for membership to cause problems in Slytherin, first of all, Draco & Company would have to find out that Slytherins were participating, and second of all, would have to care. Why would they care? They all had to take Defense classes up to their fifth year, so why would joining a Defense Club be such a big deal? Draco & Company might even think it a good idea to find out what is going on in the Defense Club by questioning Slytherin members as to what spells they're learning.

The only problem I see is if Harry is still in charge of the club. In that case, Draco would be infuriated, and might cause problems for other Slytherins, but if it's headed by the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, I don't see it causing any more problems than Slytherins joining a Charms Club.

Catherine - Jan 18, 2005 9:01 am (#972 of 1227)

Interesting, Weeny Owl.

I'm reminded that we've already seen members of all four Houses attend the Dueling Club in CoS, so obviously Slytherins are not adverse to learning combat and defensive techniques.

Prefect Marcus - Jan 18, 2005 9:19 am (#973 of 1227)

GryffEndora -

There really is a good deal of evidence that suggests the possibility of Pansy reforming. It is a shame that that theory so often gets mixed up with the Harry/Pansy 'ship. In truth, the evidence for a possible redemption is far stronger than the 'ship. It is just that the 'ship is a natural outgrowth of her redemption.

You might be interested in a fanfic I wrote on the FanFic board entitled "It Begins". It suggest a possible beginning to all this. The D.A. serves as a catalyst.

There is an archived thread "Pansy Parkinson" that details the evidence for her possible redemption without too much overlap from the 'ship. You might find it an interesting read.

Marcus

GryffEndora - Jan 18, 2005 10:58 am (#974 of 1227)

Thanks Marcus, I'll check it out!

Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 6:23 pm (#975 of 1227)

Weeny, I think the fact that the DA is so closely associated with Harry and Hermione--and Gryffindors in general--will make it a problem for some Slytherins, particularly now that Malfoy and others have been outted and imprisoned. The Nibblers could choose to make life very miserable for any kids who want to join. The other clubs were "Harry-neutral." I do believe the "Harry factor" will discourage some who might otherwise be willing ... more out of fear for their safety (from the Nibblers) than anything else.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 18, 2005 7:44 pm (#976 of 1227)

I agree Solitaire, (boy I write that a lot). I see the DA as a counterpart to the Death Nibblers in some respects. Harry leads his group and Draco leads his. I don't think it would be easy for a Slytherin to join the DA because of the "Harry Factor." Harry's year are upper classmen. Draco is in a higher profile role as a leader. LPO

Weeny Owl - Jan 18, 2005 8:18 pm (#977 of 1227)

When the DA was a secret, I would agree, Solitaire.

If a new DA begins, though, it could be a different matter entirely. If the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher should start it, and if Harry isn't any more involved than he would be with any other club at Hogwarts, then it wouldn't be a problem that I can see.

If it remains fairly secret and Harry is the main focus, then it would definitely create problems.

Slytherins have the right to defend themselves just as other students do, and if the club is focused on defense and not on Harry, then I just can't see why it should be a problem. If there is a teacher or someone else willing to devote the time to instructing students on defense, and if that person doesn't show any favortism with Harry, it could unite the houses, with a few exceptions, of course.

It wouldn't even have to be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. The Ministry might get its collective head out of the sand and send an Auror to provide instruction.

JKR may not even include the DA or any Defense Club, of course, and if she does, it could be something we haven't even imagined yet.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 18, 2005 9:41 pm (#978 of 1227)

I don't know if I can see a reason for the DA to continue. If you have a really good DADA teacher who will teach all of the students (all four schools)what they need to know then why have the DA. HRH & NGL and most of the other members of the DA are all going to be fifth or sixth year students and will be entering the more advanced training anyway. What better way to unite the schools then teach all of the students the same things. Don't make any school feel like it is better than the others or that its students are receiving preferencial treatment. Don't make any of the schools feel that they are being discriminated aganist and not being trained adequately in DADA.

THAT!! Would bring about more unity and give the Slytherin students who might not want to stand up to Draco a chance to see just what the veterans of the MOM are capable of and what they need to learn. The only problem I see is who would DD get to teach the course.

OK, Go ahead shoot down my theory. Tell me everything that I have forgotten to consider.

Mikie

edited for context

Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 10:43 pm (#979 of 1227)

LOL Mickey! You silly.

Weeney, I agree that it might be different if a teacher were heading up the DA. It is possible that could happen. However, it is also possible that the kids will be encouraged to just continue it as a study group. Understand that I am not talking about the kind of group the DA might or could become. I want to talk about what might happen if the DA as is were simply made a study group that was allowed ... and it continued as before.

I'm not saying all of the Slytherins hate all of the Gryffindors. I am quite sure there are probably some who like everyone just the same. I even agree that Slytherins need training just like everyone else; I don't believe I ever said that they didn't. What's more, I even think there might be a Slytherin or two who would have liked to join the DA.

I just wonder, however, if even the most independent Slytherins would be willing to brave the consequences that might come their way--at the hands of their own housemates who hate Harry and Gryffindor--if they wanted to join the DA as it stands now. I'm saying if, if, if ... I'm speculating.

I don't think anyone has offered up much of a reason why Slytherin kids who are interested would NOT have to worry about the Nibblers seeking revenge. They are a pretty vengeful lot.

Solitaire

Eric Bailey - Jan 18, 2005 10:58 pm (#980 of 1227)

Well, for one thing, Draco's influence should be considerably lessened, this year. His position, there, wasn't based on his own merit, but his two favorite words, "My father". In the Slytherin common room, those two magic words were likely followed by "will buy us this" or "can ruin your family". Now, he'll just have himself, Crabbe, Goyle, and maybe a couple of other thugs to keep the House in line, and I don't see that being nearly enough. All Draco has is the fanatical Death Nibblers, now. And anyone he's used his father as a threat against likely is going to want to get some revenge. Draco would make very good target practice, some would think.

Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 11:17 pm (#981 of 1227)

anyone he's used his father as a threat against likely is going to want to get some revenge. Draco would make very good target practice, some would think.

We can only hope!

Weeny Owl - Jan 18, 2005 11:24 pm (#982 of 1227)

I agree with Eric that Draco's influence is going to change by leaps and bounds in sixth year. He wa sso fond of talking about his father being friends with only the top people at the Mnistry, his father's money, and his father's influence.

After Lucius was no longer a governor, Draco sulked and pouted, and a lot of his strutting stopped.

I could see his housemates wanting revenge or even just ignoring him. Ignoring him would probably throw him into a hissyfit of epic proportions, and the Slytherins who really want to learn defense could join the DA with no problems.

Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 2:09 am (#983 of 1227)

Draco: This it IT!!! I've had ENOUGH!!!

Harry: Sigh... Now what?

Draco: The Slytherins are ignoring me!!! ME!!! A MALFOY!!!

Ron: So, they're wising up?

Luna: Ah. I thought there had to be SOME intelligence in that House...

Hermione: I really was beginning to wonder...

Draco: SHUT UP!!! This is all YOUR fault!!! All of you!!!

Harry: Isn't everything?

Hermione: Really, Malfoy, you can't always blame others for your...

Draco: Oh yes, I CAN!!! Nothing is going the way it SHOULD!!! I'm a MALFOY!!! Everything and everyone is supposed to cater to me! And, it ISN'T!!! That PROVES there's something really WRONG with the world!!! Make it STOP!!!

Luna: Sigh... (shakes head sadly) I thought he wouldn't completely crack until Christmas holiday...

Draco: Zabini's been throwing SPITBALLS at me!!!

Luna: Simple, but effective...

Hermione: Why didn't I think of that?

Draco: I've tried everything... EVERYTHING... to set the world right... Sob! But now... I must use... the LAST RESORT!!!

Neville: Uh oh...

Draco: (cackles madly) Yes!!! I haven't had to do this since I was a child, but when the world was acting wrongly, this ALWAYS worked!!!

Harry: Be ready... (Sextet pull out wands, preparing for something big)

Draco: (lies on ground, and begins kicking) WAHHHHH!!!! WAHHHHH!!!

Ron: Bloody hell...

Hermione: Ron! Don't swear!

Draco: (still on ground, kicking) WAHHHH!!! (looks up, sees the world hasn't changed, resumes kicking) WAHHHH!!!

Ginny: Should I kick him when he's down?

Harry: Be my guest.

Hermione: Harry!

Crabbe: My word!

Goyle: Ah... We really must apologise for our Housemate's infantile behavior. Perhaps I hit him on the head a trifle too hard?

Crabbe: No, no... He was always like this. Sigh... We would like to point out that Malfoy is NOT a reflection of Slytherin as a whole...

Goyle: I suppose we should get him some medication... Though it will be difficult to move him in his current convulsive state.

Crabbe: We could render him unconcious.

Goyle: Quite true... But, then we would have to explain how he aquired the neccessary head trauma.

Crabbe: Ah. Excellent point, my esteemed collegue. Pansy, could you retrieve Madam Pomfrey?

Pansy: (breaking of distracted stare at Harry) Hmm? Oh, yes, of course...

Goyle: Really, Pansy, doesn't Mr. Potter have enough potential romantic interests with these three?

Crabbe: He is quite the ladies man...

Goyle: It's the scar... Girls love scars...

The giant squid - Jan 19, 2005 2:24 am (#984 of 1227)

Oh, my, Eric...that was truly SPEW-worthy! Although, just as a precautionary measure, you may want to add some sort of comments with your dialogues or the mods might relegate you to the fanfic forum...

--Mike

Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 3:01 am (#985 of 1227)

Well, the dialogs are continuations of the commentary, and really don't work outside the context of the discussion.

Hermione: Continuing the tradition of Plato, who always wrote in dialogs.

Luna: You've read Plato?

Hermione: You have to ask?

Ron: Plato... That's Mickey Mouse's dog, right?

Luna: You know Mickey Mouse?

Hermione: I've been educating him on the muggle world... though not very well, it looks like...

Luna: I see... Personally, my taste in Greek literature is mainly Homer...

Ron: The dad on The Simpsons?

Anyway, I do see DA continuing, in some way, shape, or fashion. There's a war on, after all, and they're going to need more than their usual DADA class. And, the Slytherins who don't let Draco do their thinking for them, or support Voldemort, will want to be involved. Their only gripe with Harry would be that he's a rival seeker in quiddich. As important as that is to the students, an ambitious Slytherin would consider Voldemort more important, whther he's a supporter or against him.

Liz Mann - Jan 19, 2005 8:45 am (#986 of 1227)

I haven't read all of the above posts, but some of my thoughts from reading the ones I did:

I don't think the DA will continue as a Defense club initially. The whole point of it was that they weren't being taught the material in class, so they'd learn it in their own time. With Umbridge out of the picture, hopefully they won't need the DA. What I meant was that when they're trying to think of people to help them fight, they're going to choose the DA, partly because they've been trained in defense, and partly because they're the students at the school that the trio know personally.

I think the Slytherin to go over is most likely to be Theodore Nott. First of all, J.K. has pointed him out specifically over his other nameless, faceless Slytherin peers by having him be the one that can see Thestrals, and she had notes on him that she was going to work in but didn't. Also, why would the DA, all of whom hate Slytherins, accept one into their ranks? Perhaps because his father is a Death Eater and this boy might know what the Death Eaters' attack plans are.

Draco on the other hand I don't think will ever join the Light. He hates Harry far too deeply and I believe that he will join the Death Eaters ranks the second he turns 17. Voldemort will certainly want him because of his father, and because he could be a spy at Hogwarts. In fact, Draco could have been a spy all the way through OotP. I take his, "You're dead, Potter" at the end of book 5 very seriously. I think he will, at some point, attempt to make the fatal blow on Harry.

GryffEndora - Jan 19, 2005 8:48 am (#987 of 1227)

I have to question whether or not the threat of Draco's father is really diminished? Yes, before he had money and influence and innuendo, now he is a known Death Eater who will likely break out of the poorly guarded Azkaban most likely with help from his fellow Death Eaters. Is "My father could ruin your father's career!" really a worse threat than "When my dad's mates break him out of prison I will make sure they wipe out your entire family"? As much as I would love for Draco's power to be stripped, I think the only way for that to happen would be for Lucius to die and the family fortune to be gone.

Prefect Marcus - Jan 19, 2005 10:39 am (#988 of 1227)

Eric,

I wouldn't worry about your little swerve into FanFic. Sometimes a point can best be put by a story.

My favorite part was the suddenly erudite Crabbe and Goyle.

Anyway, I think D.A. will continue. Why? Because of what Rowling said at the end of OoP when Malfoy and friends tried to ambush Harry on the Hogwarts Express. She either said, "D.A. members", or "members of the D.A.". She did not use 'former', 'erstwhile', 'defunct', or any other term implying the D.A. was history.

So if D.A. is to continue, the question must be "in what form?" I first thought of Advanced DADA (A-DADA?), but that would be the province of the new DADA teacher.

To me it makes most sense for it to be either a study group or a club. If a study group, they can govern it themselves and keep out the Slytherins. (This would be fertile ground for conflicts.) If an interest club, I would assume that they would need a faculty advisor and would need to accept all comers.

I think the least likely would be as a secret organization. Of course, maybe only a secret organization with real need of a place to meet can access the Room of Requirement.

Marcus

Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 11:00 am (#989 of 1227)

I don't see any whay that there will not be a DA. Battle trained veterans are hard to come by and, I think, most will be quite proud of themselves. I think that they will heroically, and tragically, lead the battle in the coming war. As much as the OOTP prides itself on its abilities, wars are fought by the young.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 19, 2005 12:56 pm (#990 of 1227)

DA had to be a closed shop with Umbridge sniffing around and many Slytherins (especially Nibblers) helping her to sniff: there was no possibility at that point of ever considering Slytherin members.

The position has now changed. The DA has shown its mettle - in a real, stand-up fight against adult wizards and in a somewhat lesser engagement against three cowards who wanted to ambush Harry. If Harry is anything to go by, I'm willing to bet that a fair number of the DA got very, very good marks in at least the practical side of their OWLs, and that will be a fact which will soon become apparent.

As soon as non-nibbler Slytherins see that DA membership = good DADA marks, their desire to succeed regardless of what is required will cause them to apply (and to prove their good nature in order to do so).

Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 1:06 pm (#991 of 1227)

Only recently I realized that there was a third skirmish between the DA and the, for lack of a better name, bad guys. The fray in Umbridge's office. Let see Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville. Ginny performed her famous Bat Bogey Hex (I have no idea what that could be.) I can't remember any other details.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 19, 2005 1:51 pm (#992 of 1227)

I did not include the Umbridge office duel because there is no evidence of what happened, save that Ginny & co. escaped and told the tale. i.e. how they went from being thoroughly trapped to being free, armed and firing back is not clear.

GryffEndora - Jan 19, 2005 2:10 pm (#993 of 1227)

Bogey is Brittish slang meaning (for lack of a better word) booger. When, I think, Ron says "you should have seen Malfoy covered in the great flapping things" (or something of the like, I don't have my book to check) I imagined bats made of boogers attacking Malfoy's face. It both amused me and grossed me out.

Liz Mann - Jan 19, 2005 3:55 pm (#994 of 1227)

LOL! I could never imagine what the bat bogey hex does, either (even though I know what bogies are, being British), but you've just put a brilliantly funny image in my head.

Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 6:06 pm (#995 of 1227)

I'm not sure that I am thankful for that image.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 19, 2005 6:44 pm (#996 of 1227)

I'm probably in a minority here which wouldn't be the first time. I like going aganist the flow. Folks the DA were very very lucky in the MOM. The fact that one or more of them have not gone to the great beyond is a miracle. They caught the death eaters off guard with tactics which were elementary. You can bet that the next time Voldemort will make sure that his boys shoot first and ask questions later. Perfect Marcus-The DA can progress to a study group and keep the Slytherins out but why. We want everybody involved don't we. We want the students from all four houses to be active against Voldemort. A few of the Slytherin's especially Mr. Nott could maybe provide some interesting information on the deatheaters. But you have to give the Slytherin students a way to make it look like they are only taking part without going aganist the more radical members of their own house. Liz Mann-I don't think Draco is going to wait until he's 17. You don't really need a license to become a death eater. Personally, I believe Malfroy and the other captured death eaters will get out real early in HBP and that "Draco's Detour" may be a little side trip where Draco goes to see Daddy and meet Voldemort. Probably will also get his first assignment from the big guy.

Mikie

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 19, 2005 8:09 pm (#997 of 1227)

Mikie I love your take on Draco's Detour. I think he would love to work for Voldemort, especially if it meant getting at the Trio.

Big Batty Boogers! I think I'm with you on this one Steve. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 9:49 pm (#998 of 1227)

GryffEndora: I have to question whether or not the threat of Draco's father is really diminished

I wish I could disagree, but I'm sorry to say I can't. I think Lucius is deadly, wherever he happens to reside. I believe him quite capable of fomenting all kinds of mayhem from his cell in Azkaban--assuming he is still there.

Muggle Doc: As soon as non-nibbler Slytherins see that DA membership = good DADA marks, their desire to succeed regardless of what is required will cause them to apply

I think this could very well happen with some Slytherins. It is possible that their very Slytherin-y natures and ambition could propel them right into the DA. This could be a good thing, because they would learn that there are some pretty neat people there--despite what they've been led to believe by Draco.

I'm not sure what I think about Draco becoming a full-fledged DE. If he truly believes the philosophies he spouts, then he is indeed evil. Somehow, though, I'm not sure he has what it takes. Think about it ...

He has not exactly been a shining star in most of his attacks on Harry & Co. Imagine him blowing one of Voldemort's assignments. As Voldemort aims a Crucio! curse at him, can't you just hear him--"Wait till my father hears about this!" Only I don't think Voldemort is going to be all that impressed, do you?

Draco is going to have to make some kind of move in Book 6 or be left behind. If a battle is waged within Hogwarts, will he head up the opposition? And if he does ... will his house stand with him, or will they join the opposition? And what will his Head-of-House do? Any battle at Hogwarts is going to have to force Snape out (unless he is away) ... His game will be up.

Solitaire

Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 11:26 pm (#999 of 1227)

Can Voldie trust Draco not to immediately show off the Dark Mark on the first day of school, though? The boy can be pretty thick, sometimes.

Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 11:27 pm (#1000 of 1227)

Exactly!

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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 20, 2005 7:33 am (#1001 of 1227)

I lean towards a pair of confrontations: one large; one small. The large one will be between the DEs and OotP. The second, between the DA and the DN, will be smaller but no less vicious.

However, I then ask myself what will become of Hogwarts? I think my answer is that the victories of OotP and DA will demonstrate convincingly that purity of bloodlines is not a reasonable or proper criterion to use in judging people. Therefore, although Slytherin House will still be for the pure-bloods, an all magical heritage will become more of a curiousity rather than as a source of assumed superiority and class-based arrogance.

Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 11:00 am (#1002 of 1227)

Does anyone believe any of the students will use (or attempt to use) Unforgiveable Curses if there is a confrontation? If so, who? Will the DA members be more likely than others to hurl an Unforgiveable at a DE? Do you believe any students die at the hands of other students, or will they only die (if they do die) at the hands of Voldemort or DEs? Does anyone believe Voldemort and his forces will infiltrate the Castle? Just curious ...

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 20, 2005 11:52 am (#1003 of 1227)

Good questions, Solitaire,

Does anyone believe any of the students will use (or attempt to use) Unforgiveable Curses if there is a confrontation? If so, who? Will the DA members be more likely than others to hurl an Unforgiveable at a DE?

IMHO, yes. Harry's already tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Bella, with only partial success. So, in this regard, the die is cast. I think the real question, is who does it first in the DA vs DN confrontation. My guess would be Draco. What happens then? I'd guess that the DA, being better trained, would win, but it'd be messy.

Do you believe any students die at the hands of other students, or will they only die (if they do die) at the hands of Voldemort or DEs?

I don't think that any of them have the hatred the Unforgiveable Curses require. As Bella said, it takes more than righteous indignation to make them work. You really have to derive pleasure from the act of torture and relish in murder to make them work. I doubt that any of the students have that kind of deep emotion.

Does anyone believe Voldemort and his forces will infiltrate the Castle?

In some ways, aren't they already within the castle? That is, all the Slytherin students have parents. The kids could easily invite their parents to the school. Once inside, the DEs would be a force to recon with, even for DD.

Thanks,

wwtMask - Jan 20, 2005 12:57 pm (#1004 of 1227)

I'd say that the DE contingent would have to be fairly large, coordinated, and unafraid of taking heavy losses. Considering their fear of their master and knowing that Voldemort is, at the least, wary enough of Dumbledore's power to tread carefully around him, I doubt they would even stand and fight. I get the feeling that Dumbledore could, indeed, take on 20-50 DEs singlehandedly and win convincingly. On the other hand, I am certain that the DEs won't play fair at all. We might see a deadly hostage situation. Maybe then the DA will have a chance to shine.

Liz Mann - Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm (#1005 of 1227)

I think that the Death Eaters will infiltrate the castle. It's as I said before, if something happens to Dumbledore, Voldemort's going to immediately want to take the school, isn't he? It's like saying, "I've won!" Which is when Harry and the DA will probably fight back.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 20, 2005 6:42 pm (#1006 of 1227)

I think the students are capable of using the Unforgivable Curses. Malfoy has enough hate and malice in him to be successful. I found the fact that Harry used one on Bella very disturbing. I saw that as lowering yourself to your opponents level. It was a move Crouch Sr made. Umbridge was willing to use it on Harry. Moody kept his honor and never went to that level. I think we are going to see more of the Unforgivable Curses. I hope the DA does not employ those tactics. LPO

Wand Maker - Jan 20, 2005 6:49 pm (#1007 of 1227)

LPO - Yes, I expect that Draco will use at least one of the Unforgivable Curses before the end of the series.

I think that Harry used it in a fit of anger (temporary insanity). I doubt that he or any of the DA members will be able to use any of the them successfully (except for perhaps Neville on Bellatrix).

I don't know that Moody never used them. The impression I got through Sirus was that Moody did not use them unless he had to.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 20, 2005 8:05 pm (#1008 of 1227)

Joanne R. Reid-I have to agree with Ludicious Patents Office and Wand Maker. I think that Draco is ready to use the unforgivable's right now. His hate for Harry in particular is extreme. Everything that Draco had is being taken away from him. His family name, prestige and power. I think he will try hopefully the DA will be able to respond. I disagree with you on one thing Wand Maker, I think that both Harry will be the one forced to use an unforgivable before the end of the series.

Mikie

Wand Maker - Jan 20, 2005 8:38 pm (#1009 of 1227)

Mikie - It is quite possible that Harry will successfully use one or more of the Unforgivable Curses. Jo is so good at her storytelling, it could go any of a number of ways.

I always felt that at the end of OOP, when Dumbledore tells Voldemort that "There are worse things than death", and the wording of the Prophecy (that does not actually say 'killing'), that this was a hint that Harry would end up doing something other than AK that would result in Voldemort dying.

Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 8:47 pm (#1010 of 1227)

Good points, everyone. Joanne, I didn't think about all of the Slytherin parents. They could prove a rather formidable force. But maybe we shouldn't assume that all of the Slytherin families are DEs.

I agree, LPO, that Draco is filled with sufficient hate to AK more than a few people. I think his little wand finger has probably been itching to get at our Trio. I also expect Ginny has a few curses with her name on them. The confrontation I'd really like to see is Neville blowing Draco's doors off! For years Draco has harassed poor Neville and made his life a misery. Just once ... !!

I don't think Neville would AK someone without tremendous provocation--although, if Draco tried to injure Harry or Hermione, he might be willing to do more than I expect. More than anything, though, I'd like to see him "return the favor" of all the curses Draco has used on him over the years. That should do nicely for a start!

Solitaire

Eric Bailey - Jan 20, 2005 11:28 pm (#1011 of 1227)

Gryffindors tend to believe in playing by the "rules". What about Ravenclaws, though? They'd take the view that you can't pull punches in wartime, that it's kill or be killed.

Harry: Tell us what we want to know, or...

Draco: Or what?!! You tried to Crucio my Aunt Bellatrix, remember? You Gryffindors just don't have the...

Luna: Crucio! (ZAP!)

Draco: AHHHHH!!!!

Hermione: Luna!

Luna: (shrug) I'm a Ravenclaw.

Hermione: I know, but, that's an Unfogivable Curse!!!

Luna: You're telling me I can't even crucio... (ZAP!)

Draco: AHHHHH!!!

Luna: Oops. Sorry.

Hermione: No, you're not. You did that on purpose.

Luna: I did NOT mean to crucio... (ZAP!)

Draco: AHHHHH!!!

Hermione: Luna, point the wand away from Malfoy.

Luna: Grumble... Fine! May I at least use the Poopyhead Hex on him?

Hermione: No! Not... the Poopyhead Hex!

Luna: What, THAT'S an Unforgivable, now?!!

Hermione: No, it's just... gross.

And, I agree that all Slytherins can't be eeeeevil. If they were, that House would have been done away with a long time ago.

scoop2172000 - Jan 21, 2005 5:09 am (#1012 of 1227)

Going back to LPO's post 1006, I too was uneasy about Harry attempting to crucio Bella. But when I had time to think about it, I concluded the incident showed that Harry, like the rest of us, can be pushed only so far before going off the deep end and doing something each one of us may (or may not) regret later.

Maybe the episode with Bella foreshadows Harry being pushed far enough over the brink that he'll do an AK on Voldemort, fufilling the prophesy.

If Harry continues running the DA, I see him tutoring students on how to throw off the Imperius Curse, which Harry has an natural aptitude for. But would Harry in secret set out how to learn AK? We shall see.

Choices - Jan 21, 2005 8:38 am (#1013 of 1227)

I still don't think the students have the maturity or the depth of hatred to produce an effective unforgivable curse. Harry may be getting there, but the rest just haven't had enough of the horrible experiences that he has had to produce that kind of deep loathing. Like fake Moody told them when he was teaching them about the unforgivable curses - you could all point your wands at me and utter a curse and I doubt I would get more than a nosebleed. They just don't yet have the life experience or serious hatred to produce a really strong AK or Crucio - they just couldn't do much damage yet.

GryffEndora - Jan 21, 2005 9:01 am (#1014 of 1227)

I agree that Harry used the unforgiveable on Bella out of grief. Harry stopped Lupin and Sirius from becoming killers in PoA, his parents were murdered by LV and I don't think he want's to have anything more in common with him than he already has. If every skilled marksman murdered a human being because s/he has an aptitude and s/he was really angry then almost every gun owner would be a murderer. Harry respects life and he respects the law (most of the time). I agree with WandMaker, that Harry will find something worse than Death to do to LV.

Liz Mann - Jan 22, 2005 6:35 am (#1015 of 1227)

I don't think the students would be able to do the Unforgiveables because they'll always have the thought that they're breaking a major law in the backs of their minds, and that they're doing a terrible thing to someone. Harry was pushed over the edge and tried to do an unforgiveable but he couldn't make it work because he's not the kind of person who really wants to hurt someone. I think this is foreshadowing that Harry is not going to use AK on Voldemort, and that it has to be done some other way. Besides, AK doesn't work on Voldie, remember? He's immortal. Harry must have to find a way to reverse the immortal thing. Remember J.K. said that one of the major things we have to consider is what Voldemort did to make himself unable to die.

As for the rest of the DA, is Harry can't do the Unforgiveables despite all the anger and the hell he's been through, then the rest of them certainly can't (unless they're malicious).

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 22, 2005 10:05 am (#1016 of 1227)

I think anyone could be pushed to commit an Unforgiveable given a life or death situation. We never know to what extremes we will go when faced with those types of situations but hopefully the students won't be pushed that far.

I agree with you Liz Mann, I hope Harry doesn't have to AK Voldemort.

Mikie

Eric Bailey - Jan 22, 2005 11:08 am (#1017 of 1227)

Well, as a Buffy fan, I'm pretty sure a well aimed rocket launcher would take care of that immortality thing. Smile

But seriously (more or less), I suspect the "immortality" mostly means hard to kill, not unkillable. What needs to be done is finding a way to keep him from transferring his mind into another snake, or whatever.

Steve Newton - Jan 22, 2005 1:27 pm (#1018 of 1227)

I always thought that being immortal meant that you could not die. Sort of how the Titanic could not sink. You can't die until you do.

Liz Mann - Jan 23, 2005 8:33 am (#1019 of 1227)

Dictionary definition of 'immortal': living forever, not mortal.

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 23, 2005 8:55 am (#1020 of 1227)

That is true Liz but is also confusing because I have yet to see someone that is supposed to be immortal not die in some way.There seems to be a special way in killing immortals such as a vampire being killed by wooden stake driven into the heart or sunlight.I have wondered if Voldemort's death would be by something besides the AK.I know Harry is part of achieving Voldemorts death but I wonder how he is going do it.Any thoughts?

Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 1:39 pm (#1021 of 1227)

Voldemort said something in GoF about not being so bothered about immortality at his return, settling for his old powers and his old body back - I think a realisation that he didn't have time to relearn his path beyond the grave if he wanted to strike before the Wizarding World was ready.

I, too, recall Moody bringing them in alive when he could, but I think there were times when he, too, thought it better not to push his luck.

Who has read E.E. Smith's Lensman novels?

"Nine out of ten Grey Lensmen died before completing their jobs, and the one who lived long enough to retire to a desk was usually half rubber, steel and phenoline plastic."(Paraphrased)

Remind you of any aurors we know?

Liz Mann - Jan 23, 2005 3:39 pm (#1022 of 1227)

I think we're straying off topic. This should be on the Harry Potter or Voldemort threads.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 23, 2005 6:26 pm (#1023 of 1227)

My fear with Harry and any of the DA using Unforgivable Curses is they are turning into DE. Harry has a responibility as the leader of the DA to not take them down that path. Though Solitaire the thought of Neville getting back at Draco is very tempting! There are some very powerful young Witches and Wizards in the DA. They could learn a lot of terrible things. The end does not justify the means. "Voldemort had powers I will never have." Dumbledore "Only because you are too-well-Noble to use them" McGonagall SS Scholastic Hardbound p. 11 Maybe the DA should take a few lessons from whom they named themselves for. LPO

Wand Maker - Jan 23, 2005 6:39 pm (#1024 of 1227)

LPO: Very good point. So far all the students have learned in DADA is about creatures. Maybe the NEWT level classes start to get into defending against other wizards. The creatures have one point of attack so to speak. A dark witch or wizard could attack at any level with anything.

So far, the DA meetings focused only on the practical side of defense. They will need to understand the why's in order to not travel down the dark path.

Interesting... I believe that the Ministry's DADA curriculum might have touched on this.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 6:49 pm (#1025 of 1227)

Pseudo-Moody in GoF: "According to the Ministry, I'm not supposed to show you what illegal dark curses look like until your sixth year..."

(This would also seem to imply that under certain circumstances - i.e. demonstration of its effects - limited and restricted use of the Imperius curse is permitted in the teaching context - though Moody, like Dumbledore, may have been bending the rules a little, and certainly Barty Jr, as a convicted DE with a life term in Azkaban, had little to lose by bending this one.)

We can take it for granted that he was speaking and acting precisely as the real Moody would have done, in order to stay in character. Therefore the curriculum DOES cover attacks from other wizards at higher level. Certainly Harry, in OotP, was successfully demonstrating "counter-curses" in his OWL practical, so they were in the true fifth-year curriculum before the Umbridge-Fudge perversion was introduced.

Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 10:41 pm (#1026 of 1227)

The Wizarding World will be at war in book 6, which means the kids are at war, too. They are going to have to know how to defend themselves, and--sorry to say this--they are going to have to know Unforgiveables. I agree with LPO that I do not want to see the DA become DE. But I think they would have to be seeking people to kill to actually become that ... wouldn't they? Is it possible to use AK in self defense? I wonder ...

Dumbledore seems to be able to disarm and disable without resorting to Unforgiveables. Remember he bound the DEs with an anti-Disapparation jinx. But he is powerful.

The DEs the kids fought in the Ministry were probably not under orders to kill. They were under orders to get that prophecy. If they met those same kids outside the Ministry and away from "protection," I think they would AK them without a second thought. Even Voldemort didn't try to "toy" with Harry this last time. He just quietly said, "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter. You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" There were certainly none of the usual taunting and soliloquies in which he usually indulges.

The more I think about it, the more critical I feel the DA will become--as a study group at the very least. If there is an assault on the castle, they will certainly be the first line of defense behind the Professors, I would think. I bet book 6 is going to be scary ... and sad.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Jan 24, 2005 12:55 am (#1027 of 1227)

The DEs weren't under orders not to kill, at least not from Lucius Malfoy. He told them to kill the kids if they needed to but not to kill Harry until they had the Prophecy.

I'm not sure how much being part of the DA helped in that battle, but it sure didn't hurt.

I don't see the students needing to learn Unforgivables, war or not. There are a lot of Dark Arts spells that can be deadly, even if they're not Unforgivables. Whatever spell Dolohov used on Hermione was purple, and I don't remember seeing a spell with purple light before that, and it would almost have to be a Dark Arts spell.

Liz Mann - Jan 24, 2005 8:32 am (#1028 of 1227)

Is it possible to use AK in self defense? I wonder...

I don't think it is possible legally. The Aurors were only given the right to use the Unforgiveables part way through Voldemort's last reign of terror (by Barty Crouch sr). Before that they weren't allowed to use them at all. Whether they will this time round, I don't know. Remember the way Sirius talked about using violence with violence, like he believed it was wrong? I think Harry, at least, would have too much respect for Sirius and what he taught him to use Unforgiveables. And J.K. clearly believes the principle that Crouch sr used was wrong, too. I don't think the DA will be using those spells. Yes, they will probably learn about them, because it's important, and how to fight them, but not how to do them.

Besides, the Unforgiveables are Dark Arts spells. Can you see Harry using the Dark Arts? Under any circumstances? And he's certainly not going to teach the DA to do it.

GryffEndora - Jan 24, 2005 8:49 am (#1029 of 1227)

I must say that I strongly believe Harry and the DA can, and already have, hold their own against the DE without resorting to the use of Unforgivable curses. Harry and the others used basic spells creatively to protect themselves and to defuse the situation eg. protego, defindo, expelliarmus etc... To me, this shows that they are using their minds, not their brute force. Harry started teaching the DA with basic spells because they had been so effective against the DE and continued to be at the MoM. Why should Harry and the DA turn themselves into criminals when they have been victorious so far by staying true to themselves?

Martial arts ore often taught as defensive rather than offensive, turning the attackers force and actions against them. I think this style of self-defense will be the key to the DA's success in or out of school.

Sorry if this is a little all over the place, I'm haveing trouble organizing my thoughts this morning.

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 24, 2005 10:20 am (#1030 of 1227)

I am reminded of the scene after the World Cup. The Dark Mark had just appeared. Out of nowhere wizards appeared all around Harry, Ron and Hermione. What spell did they use? Stupefy. It would appear that even hardened witches and wizards from the MoM, including Barty Crouch, Sr., can't/won't use the Unforgiveable Curses.

Further, as with all tales of this type, the hero must be tempted by the Dark Side, yet refuse to succumb to it. We can excuse Harry's attempted use of Cruciatus on Bellatrix because of his grief. After all, he'd just seen her murder Sirius. However, he failed to use it, because he really didn't want to cause pain. Bella said that a person really has to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering to make such curses work.

If Harry and the DAs do use the Unforgiveable Curses, they themselves will have become Death Eaters. If that is true, then Voldemort will indeed have killed Harry.

Thanks,

Solitaire - Jan 24, 2005 10:37 am (#1031 of 1227)

So Harry will have to take out Voldy with something other than an AK ... or be the one who succumbs. Is this possible? And do we know for certain that what Dolohov (sp--no book handy to check) hurled at Hermione was something other than an AK? We did not actually hear it, for Hermione had used Silencio! on him.

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 24, 2005 10:42 am (#1032 of 1227)

Yes, I think so. AK is green, and the wand movement used is to point it at the intended victim. Dolohov's was purple and delivered with a slashing movement. However, whatever it was, it was both potent and deadly. I wonder if that's what he used on the Prewetts.

Thanks,

Solitaire - Jan 24, 2005 10:51 am (#1033 of 1227)

What was used on Sirius? I do not have my book with me, but I thought I remembered a "jet of red light." Anyone?

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 24, 2005 11:13 am (#1034 of 1227)

Yes, it seems to have been red.

'Only one couple were still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.

The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.

The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.'

Thanks,

Liz Mann - Jan 24, 2005 1:49 pm (#1035 of 1227)

The curse was not what killed Sirius. The veil was. We know that because J.K. described Sirius's expression as he realised he was falling through the Veil. If he was dead, his expression wouldn't have changed the way it did.

That's for the 'Sirius Black' or 'The Veil and What Happens to Sirius' thread, though.

Wand Maker - Jan 24, 2005 5:10 pm (#1036 of 1227)

Joanne: I don't think that merely using an Unforgivable Curse makes youa Death Eater. Death Eaters are Voldemorts lieutennants (leftennants).

Like Sirius said "the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters". [OOP - pg 302]. I think the Death Eaters are the worst of the worst. Aurors have been allowed to legally use them.

Is a soldier (or anyone for that matter) in a war, defending their home terribly evil if they kill to protect themselves, their home, family, way of life?

------

The other five of the sextet now have some combat experience. If they can take those experiences and somehow communicate them to the other DA members, they will be far more capable if they ever find themselves in a bad situation (and we all know they will).

They really need to practice more like they were dueling instead of standing still while their partner performs the magic. That might help them more with thinking on their feet.

Liz Mann - Jan 25, 2005 8:02 am (#1037 of 1227)

Is a soldier (or anyone for that matter) in a war, defending their home terribly evil if they kill to protect themselves, their home, family, way of life?

No, but I guess using Dark Arts is like kicking someone when they're down or stabbing someone in the back. You just don't do it if you have any decency. There are other ways to fight and defeat someone besides using the Dark Arts. Besides, if Voldemort can be defeated by AK, then why is it Harry is the only one who can defeat him? Any Auror would be able to do it with a well-aimed spell. No, the way to defeat Voldemort must be something unique to Harry.

And I still say that Harry won't use any Dark Arts spells. He detests the Dark Arts in all shapes and forms. And he won't teach them to the DA.

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 25, 2005 8:10 am (#1038 of 1227)

Wand Maker, my point was that we are what we do. If a person spends their life doing good things, then we would say that s/he is good. If a person spends their life doing evil things, then they are evil.

I equate the use of the Unforgiveable Curses in the same way. The MoM had declared them to be unforgiveable. Nobody can use them on anybody else. The penalty is life-long imprisonment in Azkaban.

Further, we know from Bella that in order to use these curses, a person must relish causing pain and death.

Therefore, in order for Harry, et. al., to use these curses, they would have to change from the people we have come to know into people we don't want to know. They would have taken on the psyche of the Death Eaters. Instead of defeating them, Harry and the DA would have only supplanted them. They, themselves, would have become the next generation of DEs, with Harry becoming the new Lord Voldemort.

For parallels, let us consider both Star Wars and LotR. Luke must not surrender to the Dark Side, lest he becomes the next Darth Vader. Galadriel can not take the ring from Frodo lest she become the Dark Lord. Thus, Harry can not use the Dark Arts, including the Unforgiveable Curses, without becoming that which he is trying to overcome and to destroy.

Gosh, I hope that I've clarified rather than obfuscated my thoughts.

Thanks,

Steve Newton - Jan 25, 2005 8:18 am (#1039 of 1227)

Actually, I think that Bella said that to do the Cruciatus curse a person must relish causing pain and death. I'm not sure what this says about the other unforgivables. AK seems pretty clear cut. The Imperius? Don't know.

kabloink! - Jan 25, 2005 8:43 am (#1040 of 1227)

WEll, Mad Eye Moody is considered to be firghtening, but good. He performed all three of the Unforgivables, in front of a classroom of students, at that. Does that mean that he is evil?

I haven't read much of this thread, yet, but I thought I would respond to the last few posts.

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 25, 2005 9:24 am (#1041 of 1227)

Steve, I think the answer to your question is yes. Consider Avadra Kedavra. Imagine how much hatred you must have within you to enjoy killing another person. I'm sure that it takes a similar warped mind to relish controlling another person so completely that they will do anything, including murder, torture or suicide.

kabloink!, I think there's a difference between a spider and a human, in the first place. Second, Mad-Eye wasn't Mad-Eye. He was Barty Crouch, Jr., who, we know, was evil personified. Finally, the real Mad-Eye was given permission to use the Unforgiveable Curses by Barty Crouch, Sr., because Moody was an Auror undoer orders from the MoM to pursue and capture DEs using any and all methods. In part, it was this unrestrained zeal that was caused the downfall of Barty Crouch, Sr. And, we know that Alaisdair Moody, himself, only half-heartedly approved of their use, and even then only in extremis.

So, I return to my major premise. If Harry uses the Unforgiveable Curses to kill Voldemort, then he becomes Voldemort incarnate. Harry can't use evil to destroy evil without becoming evil himself. Similarly, if the DAs use evil to destroy either the DNs or the DEs, then they become the next generation of Death Eaters, themselves

Thanks,

GryffEndora - Jan 25, 2005 10:16 am (#1042 of 1227)

Joanne R. Reid, I agree with your assessment of Mad Eye but he definitely believes in some form of cruel & unusual punishment since he endorses the use of Dementors on criminals where Dumbledore does not. Perhaps this distinction is why we've seen Mad Eye (played by Crouch Jr.), perform an unforgivable and not Dumbledore.

There are definitely different levels of proficiency with the unforgivables but, I just don't see the DA members needing this kind of weapon since they have survived an attack from Death Eaters without it.

Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 10:26 am (#1043 of 1227)

Further, we know from Bella that in order to use these curses, a person must relish causing pain and death.

We know from Bella that to use the Cruciatus Curse effectively a person must enjoy causing pain. She never mentioned the Avada Kedavra Curse, though.

Barty Crouch, Jr. said that the students could hit him with an Avada Kedavra and nothing more would happen than a bloody nose. That sounds more like what is needed is power rather than hate. I doubt if Barty Crouch, Jr. hated the spider he killed, but he had the power to kill it.

I do agree with you, though, that the DA can't use Unforgivable or they'll be come what they're fighting.

Choices - Jan 25, 2005 10:35 am (#1044 of 1227)

This is and is going to be, a fight of good against evil. I don't see the good side using evil, dark curses. If they do, then they would be indistinguishable from their enemies.

Czarina II - Jan 25, 2005 2:09 pm (#1045 of 1227)

The Unforgivable Curses are not evil unto themselves. They have been declared "unforgivable" and considered evil because they are more often than not used for nefarious purposes. There are good uses one can think of for the Imperious, the Cruciatus, and the AK, but no one would use them for that. Love of power prevents that. The curses themselves were probably developed by Dark Wizards, however; I do not know JKR's precise logic. Maybe, if that is the case, the curses are indeed evil, but I don't know.

In my opinion, the Unforgivables are no different than assault rifles in the Muggle world. They are both illegal (under most governments, anyway) for the general population, including the government, under ordinary circumstances. Under extraordinary circumstances, the government may license certain individuals or groups to use them -- in the case of Muggles, the army or an elite group within the armed forces are probably the only people who are allowed to use assault rifles in times of war. Allowing all wizards to use the Unforgivables (even for self-defense, even during a war) would be like letting everyone in a country have an assault rifle, which results in very limited government control and even anarchy. The wizarding world is already a world with very limited government control as it is.

So I don't think the DA would have the permission or skills required to perform the Unforgivables. Also, we've already seen these curses multiple times and while they're important, we need a better story ending than Harry popping off Voldemort with an AK, whether or not that would work or not. Furthermore, I think the only two members of the DA who would even be able to justifiably perform an Unforgivable would be Harry or Neville (and the latter only against Bellatrix).

GryffEndora - Jan 25, 2005 2:23 pm (#1046 of 1227)

Well said Czarina II

Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 3:19 pm (#1047 of 1227)

There are good uses one can think of for the Imperious, the Cruciatus, and the AK, but no one would use them for that

I might agree with you on the Imperius Curse and the Avada Kedavra Curse, but what good use could there possibly be for causing anyone excruciating pain? If the Ministry needed to get information from someone, torturing that person wouldn't be effective at all when compared to Veritaserum.

I can't think of a comparison with something in our world that is used solely for the purposes of causing pain. Guns of any kind - assault or otherwise - can be used for various purposes, but what is there in our world that does nothing but cause pain?

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 25, 2005 3:37 pm (#1048 of 1227)

I can't agree. Many people on this and other fora have railed against slavery and ill-treatment of others by magicians exerting their power. What could be worse than slavery? The Imperious Curse, in which some other person completely controls you as though you were a puppet. This other person can make you do anything. Yet, you are aware of what is happening. You know the evil things you are doing, but are utterly helpless to prevent it. What good can there ever be in such a spell?

As for Avadra Kedavra, it has one and only one purpose, namely to kill. It has no deterrent affect. It has no sporting aspect to it. There is no justification to it at all. It simply kills.

Further, we have ample evidence from Barty Crouch, Jr., Bellatrix, Voldemort, et al, that a person must be filled with hatred and consumed by evil intent to make them work. Harry and the other DAs would have to become the very people they are trying to destroy. Thereby, they themselves would be destroyed. Further, in Harry's case, such a personal destruction might fulfill the prophesy. He would have killed himself by becoming Voldemort.

Thanks,

Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 3:48 pm (#1049 of 1227)

Further, we have ample evidence from Barty Crouch, Jr., Bellatrix, Voldemort, et al, that a person must be filled with hatred and consumed by evil intent to make them work.

Actually, no we don't. All Bella said was that you have to mean them, that righteous anger won't work, and that for the Cruciatus Curse you have to enjoy inflicting pain.

Barty Crouch, Jr. said that you have to have power to use the Avada Kedavra Curse, and that all the students could cast it on him and he would get nothing more than a nose bleed.

Power and intent aren't quite the same as hatred, although I do believe that there does have to be some evil present in order to use them.

Liz Mann - Jan 25, 2005 4:06 pm (#1050 of 1227)

Barty Crouch, Jr. said that you have to have power to use the Avada Kedavra Curse, and that all the students could cast it on him and he would get nothing more than a nose bleed.

Yes, but in all fairness, if you did have to enjoy killing to use AK, Barty probably wouldn't say so right before he demonstrates the spell.

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Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 pm

Prefect Marcus - Jan 25, 2005 4:10 pm (#1051 of 1227)

I would think that AK would be a very handy spell for a butcher to know.

Forcing someone to do your bidding with Imp. can only be evil. And causing torturous pain has to be evil as well.

So I think the only one of the unforgivables that has a chance of being used for good is AK.

Weeny Owl - Jan 25, 2005 4:29 pm (#1052 of 1227)

I don't think you have to enjoy killing, necessarily. It might be helpful, but if the Aurors were allowed to use Unforgivables, and if it were a matter of killing or being killed, and if an Auror had enough power, then enjoyment wouldn't be part of it. Well, maybe enjoying not dying.

But I don't see the DA needing to use Unforgivables. They might learn more about them in N.E.W.T. classes, but there are probably plenty of spells that could work in a fight that wouldn't be unforgivable.

And I do agree with Marcus about the other two being totally evil.

Wand Maker - Jan 25, 2005 4:33 pm (#1053 of 1227)

Joanne R. Reid: I'm not extolling the virtues of Unforgivable Curses. I'm just stating that using them does not automatically make you a DE. It can be argued that there can be a time and place that they can be used as an instrument for a greater purpose.

Two atomic weapons were detonated in human history. They caused incredible amounts of destruction - to life and property. But the consesus was that it ended up saving more lives by bringing WWII (World war, not Wizard war) to a earlier end.

In case you think I am pro weapons, I am not. I appreciate the points you make.

I just try to see an argument from all sides to be able to make as good a decision I can about that argument.

I think, now that Harry realizes more what is needed to perform an Unforgivable Curse successfully, as well as deepening understanding that bad things can happen (Sirius dying), he will likely NOT use an Unforgivable Curse on another human again.

I don't know if he will admit to anyone in the DA or anyone else that he tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Bella.

kabloink! - Jan 25, 2005 6:51 pm (#1054 of 1227)

Wow. I can't believe I missed that. *DUcks head shamefully* I know better! Sorry for my unthinking blather.

Muggle Doctor - Jan 25, 2005 7:11 pm (#1055 of 1227)

Czarina, the parallel you draw about giving everyone an assault rifle resulting in anarchy is flawed: Switzerland does this (as part of its standing reserve army), and I think Israel does too. Certainly Switzerland's level of gun-related crime is far lower than, say, the US.

I think the point with AK is that there comes a time when nothing less will do; that there are circumstances under which taking a DE alive will only result in your own death and the DE's escape, and for this the use of the killing curse must be permitted.

Remember, this is not the Star Wars universe, where to be evil once dooms you to evil (essentially) forever. So far we know two Death Eaters who have turned their backs on Voldemort - Regulus Black (who paid with his life) and Severus Snape (whose status as a good guy is doubtful in the eyes of some, unless we take Dumbledore at his word). True, Snape is not a nice man, but I don't think he'd have been any different regardless of who he joined. Dean Thomas' father may be a third, but AFAIK his death was a consequence of his refusal to join in the first place, rather than defection.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 25, 2005 7:38 pm (#1056 of 1227)

After reading all of the fine post in the last couple of days, I must agree that for JKR's purposes it is unlikely that any of the students would use an unforgiveable curse. Unlikely but not impossible. That is a 180 degree turnaround for me. Thanks to all of you for your fine posts.

Mikie

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 25, 2005 8:02 pm (#1057 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor good point about people not being doomed to evil forever. A big theme with Dumbledore is second chances. I think some DA members may try to use the Unforgivable Curses if backed into a corner or, like Harry, lose their temper and attack someone. Some paths are better off not tread on. Each book brings wonderful new magic for the characters and readers. Hopefully ethics will be further discussed in the DADA class. LPO

wwtMask - Jan 26, 2005 5:57 am (#1058 of 1227)

Regarding the Unforgivable Curses, I don't think you need to be evil to perform them at all, you just need to have a strong enough will to perform the magic. Crouch Jr. was probably being honest when he said that the whole class would only give him a nose bleed if they tried AK on him. None of them had the will to actually kill him. We've seen time and again that willpower is what drives magic, which is why we see a lot of wandless magic from adults. I don't think Bella was being truthful about needing to enjoy causing pain to use Crucio properly. Or maybe she was being truthful but her knowledge of the truth is incomplete as a result of who taught her. Either way, wanting to cause pain and enjoying when you cause pain are not the same thing, and I believe Crucio can be done with just the former. Emotional response to causing pain may enhance the curse, but I don't think it is a prerequisite.

Can the Unforgivables be useful outside of their sinister context? We can ask the same of bullets and guns. When not used on humans, I think they could serve a purpose. The imperious curse could be used to keep unruly magical creatures in check. Crucio would be useful in training security trolls (high resistance to magic and toughness means it probably won't hurt them too much). Avada Kedavra would slaughterhouses more humane.

Czarina II - Jan 26, 2005 7:44 am (#1059 of 1227)

"Czarina, the parallel you draw about giving everyone an assault rifle resulting in anarchy is flawed: Switzerland does this (as part of its standing reserve army), and I think Israel does too. Certainly Switzerland's level of gun-related crime is far lower than, say, the US." -- Muggle Doctor

Good point. However, I was referring to in a time of war, when everyone is edgy and particularly during a type of guerrilla war (which wars in the wizard world seem to be like), when merely thinking that movement in the distance MIGHT be an enemy...so you AK it, only to discover it was just your dog. Also, in the particular case in Switzerland and other such nations, everyone has an army-issued weapon because they are all members of the reserves, thus having proper reserves training. In essence, this already how the wizarding world is set up. Every wizard (over age 11) has a wand.

kabloink! - Jan 26, 2005 3:55 pm (#1060 of 1227)

I agree with the point that this is not a Star Wars universe. JKR seems to be trying to point out that good and evil are not always black and white. The line blurs, and often. I can see the use of the Unforgivables in the future battles against Death Eaters, not out of desire as much as necessity. I don't believe it will be AK that Harry will have to use against Voldemort, though. That, however, is another thread, I'm sure.

Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 1:56 am (#1061 of 1227)

the Unforgivables are no different than assault rifles in the Muggle world.

I suppose I don't really see these as quite the same thing. The Unforgiveables are the actions, not the guns. You don't need an assault rifle to kill someone. He is just as dead whether you use an assault rifle, a "Saturday night special," a blade, or a beautiful silk scarf wrapped around his neck to strangle him. When you stop to think of it, all of the Hogwarts kids are "strapped"--but are their "weapons" loaded? I suppose they will become truly dangerous when they learn to wield those wands as weapons. Some can already do this.

The interesting thing about reading the battle scene between Voldemort and Dumbledore is that, while Dumbledore is about block and parry, Voldemort is about the kill. I was reminded of some of the duels I'd seen in The Three Musketeers movies. The Musketeers seemed more about defense, keeping the Richelieu and his men at bay, and getting away with life and limb intact. There was wit and style in the way that they "fenced," or dueled. Dumbledore is a lot like this. The enemies, on the other hand, were out for blood. They wanted to take the Musketeers out of the game--permanently. The kids reminded me of the Musketeers; they wanted to do their job and get out. Voldemort and the DEs had very different goals in mind.

At the moment, I truly do see the DA as just that: a defense squad. At some point, however, they may become "special ops" rescue teams--especially if they continue to hang out with Harry. I'd hate to see them become too S.W.A.T. oriented, as there are often deaths in the operations that involve them. Does this make any sense?

Solitaire

Prefect Marcus - Jan 28, 2005 5:45 pm (#1062 of 1227)

You are right, Solitaire. I really don't expect to see the D.A. become anything more than a defense club. I predict it will expand to include Slytherin members, but I have don't see it becoming much more active than that.

I just got to thinking. I would love to see Pansy take out Draco in some altercation with the Nibblers. "You jerk. Five years gone because of you."

:-)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 28, 2005 8:24 pm (#1063 of 1227)

Solitaire I wonder if Harry will share the prophecy with Ron and Hermione. They may feel it necessary to learn more offensive based magic. I don't think it would be wise to let the DA in on it. I think it is still important to keep it from Voldemort. Hermione and Ron have helped Harry prepare for many other things. They may feel in necessary to become S.W.A.T. based. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 8:31 pm (#1064 of 1227)

Well, on Mugglenet's Book 6 Fact Page, Jo did say that "Harry will tell his dearest friends about the prophesy after it sinks in to him."

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm (#1065 of 1227)

Thanks Solitaire! I haven't spent much time on Mugglenet. That is a great list. LPO

Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 6:11 pm (#1066 of 1227)

Solitare: When you stop to think of it, all of the Hogwarts kids are "strapped"--but are their "weapons" loaded?

That made me laugh. Made me think of HRH strolling into an episode of NYPD Blue or something. Smile

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 31, 2005 9:06 am (#1067 of 1227)

Hi,

This is a long one, so please forgive me in advance.

We’ve been discussing the use of the Unforgivable Curses in reference to their use by the members of Dumbledore’s Army in general and Harry Potter in particular. Let’s review what we know:

1. Magic, as defined and demonstrated in JKR’s novels, is the directed application of mental energy. That is, the magical person must formulate their desire into a thought. The magical person must then focus their thought towards a particular outcome. The person must utter some kind of magical phrase that embodies that outcome. The person uses their wand to focus their mental energy. If the person has the focused mental energy, the magic is performed.

2. “Time and space matter in magic.” Severus Snape, OotP, pge 531, Scholastic Press (2003)

3. “Avadra Kedavra’s a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it – you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I’d get so much as a nosebleed.” Barty Crouch, Jr., GoF, pge 217, Scholastic Press (2000)

4. “Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?” she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. “You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain – to enjoy it – righteous anger won’t hurt me for long – I’ll show you how it is done, shall I? I’ll give you a lesson –.” Bellatrix Lastrange, OotP, pge 810, Scholastic Press (2003)

5. ‘A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words into the night: “Avadra Kedavra!” Peter Petttigrew, GoF, pge 638, Scholastic Press, (2000)

What do we learn from these examples? Nothing new. Rowling has merely emphasized that magic requires a force of mind. The magical person must want a thing to happen, must voice the proper command and focus it. So, what is different about the Unforgivable Curses? The magical person must really want the desired outcome.

In what state of mind must a person be to really want to torture another person? In what state of mind must a person be to relish and enjoy causing such torment that the person writhes in pain until they lose their minds? In what state of mind must a person be to want to control another person so totally that s/he will kill, main or injure anyone, anytime and anywhere? In what state of mind must a person be to will the death of someone else?

There is only one word to describe a person with these states of mind - evil. That is, to operate the Unforgivable Curses one must really enjoy causing pain, injury and death. The mind of such a person is filled with evil. Such a person is evil.

Can Harry and the other members of Dumbledore’s Army use the Unforgivable Curses? No. Barty Crouch, Jr., told us they couldn’t, and Bellatrix Lastrange told us why. Neither Harry nor any of the DAs are so filled with hatred that they really want to cause pain, injury and death.

Further, what would they have become if they were able to perform the Unforgivable curses? They would have to relish and enjoy torturing other people. They would have to delight in controlling other people, turning them into puppets for their own enjoyment. They would have to savor murder. The taking of life would have to be sweeter than life itself.

That is, to use the Unforgivable Curses, Harry and Dumbledore’s Army would have to become evil. If he used Unforgivable Curses to defeat and kill Voldemort, Harry would simply take his place as the Dark Lord. Similarly, Dumbledore’s Army would only take the place of the Death Eaters. A new cycle of torture and death would begin, and a new Harry Potter would have to arise to defeat the Dark Lord.

There is no doubt that Harry tried to use an Unforgivable Curse. Perhaps we can all rationalize it to ourselves. Maybe Harry will be able to understand why he did it. But, there is no doubt that he must eschew the Unforgivable Curses in the future. If he doesn’t, he will be caught in an ever downward spiral of evil from which he cannot emerge.

Thanks,

Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 12:48 pm (#1068 of 1227)

I certainly see your point, Joanne, but I disagree on the topic of AK. Even Moody, determined to bring them in alive, found there were times when the personal risk to himself was far too great and he was forced to kill his quarry. "He always tried to bring them in alive whenever he could." GoF.

I think AK is only one of the unforgivables because its use under most circumstances constitutes wilful murder. I suspect that when it was given Unforgivable status, the concept of a general war in the Wizarding World didn't enter the minds of the legislators. Even Dumbledore's defeat of Grindlewald in 1945 seems to have been a one-off wizard-vs-wizard diel (unless JKR tells us more). Voldemort seems to be one cut above that - the misery and suffering he has brought to his world are beyond compare, and the lifting of the AK restriction for the Aurors by Crouch Snr is doing no more than giving them the capability they need to deal with the hitherto unforeseen.

Crucio and Impero?

That's another matter altogether, although I wonder about the use of the Imperius curse when there is a Veritaserum shortage.

I agree that AK is reserved for extreme circumstances - Harry vs. Voldemort or DA/Order vs. DE's in battle. Personally I think Voldy will end up with Godric's sword in his gizzard rather than meet the Green Flash again, but we will have to see how Book 7 ends.

Joanne R. Reid - Jan 31, 2005 12:59 pm (#1069 of 1227)

Won't it be great! I can hardly wait. I'm a kid, again, waiting for my super special birthday present :-D

Thanks,

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 31, 2005 7:19 pm (#1070 of 1227)

Joanne, Excellent post. Thank you for all the quotes. I agree that for Harry and the DA to use the Unforgivable Curses it draws them into an evil state of mind.

Muggle Doctor maybe the AK can be used in self defense or extreme measures. I think if a person uses it a part of them changes. The act of killing, especially another sentient being, is an act of destruction. I have never been in a war. I think though if a person kills someone it must have an impact on them. I really like your sword idea. That solves a lot of problems with the wands! LPO

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2005 10:53 pm (#1071 of 1227)

It would seem on the surface, then, that Harry is more or less doomed. He must either die or become Voldemort. Is that what you are saying? For Dumbledore surely says he must be murderer or victim. Perhaps he will choose to be a victim and shuffle off this mortal coil, as he does not wish to become Voldemort. It would certainly resolve all those pesky 'shipping problems, wouldn't it?

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 12:08 am (#1072 of 1227)

I don't see the DA using Unforgivables as a whole, but if one member should need to kill someone in self-defense, I don't think it would turn them to the dark side. Killing someone, even in a war, should have an impact, but that impact can be positive in that defeating one dark wizard or witch could save countless thousands.

Regardless of what Dumbledore said, I don't see Harry being a murderer or a victim. I think he'll defeat Voldemort, but it will be something similar to what happened in the Ministry atrium, rather than anything direct.

wwtMask - Feb 1, 2005 8:03 am (#1073 of 1227)

I must still disagree with the assertion that one necessarily has to be evil or tapping into evil to use any of the curses. Harry was seeking revenge when he used Crucio. Even Bella acknowledges that he was filled with righteous anger. There is nothing evil about that. I think, with a more practical knowledge of using those curses, Harry could easily have kept Bella down with only righteous anger as the fuel for Crucio. I don't think that using the Unforgivables leads you down the path of evil anymore than I believe that using the Cheering Charm (or something similarly benign) leads you down the path of good. We do not consider our soldiers evil even though they go to war with the express purpose of killing other men. Some of the methods and implements used in the process that kill and injure are just as bad or worse than any of the Unforgivables, but we still don't consider our soldiers to be evil because we assume in good faith that they do what is necessary. I look on the Unforgivables in the same way.

Joanne R. Reid - Feb 1, 2005 10:11 am (#1074 of 1227)

Hi, wwtMask,

I don't think the analogy between a Muggle soldier and a wizard using Avadra Kedavra is valid.

Muggle soldiers undergo a long and intense training period, in which they are dehumanized. Drill instructors use every psychological trick to instill a so-called fighting spirit in civilians. The objective of this training is to turn off the civilized mind, and to supplant it with the mind of a killer.

However, a Muggle soldier does not mentally will death upon his enemy. The soldier does not build up his mind, his hatred and his emnity to a fevered pitch to kill his enemy. Instead, he clears his mind, sights his weapon and pulls the trigger. The rest is physics and chemistry. It requires no input on the part of the soldier. The soldier does not have to think the bullet into his enemy's body. He does not have to envision the bullet ripping and rending, tearing and smashing his enemy's body. It simply happens.

But, as we know, magic is a mental effort. In point of fact, Bella could not be held down by righteous anger. This is canon. To make AK work, the magician must mentally perceive the thing s/he wishes to happen. The magician must focus these thoughts into a curse that is transmitted via a wand.

That is, the use of AK is the opposite of Muggle killing. When we use a gun to kill someone else, it is, generally, at a distance and quite impersonal. When a wizard uses AK to kill, it is intensely personal, requiring the full focus of that person's entire mental energy.

Finally, we know that a gun can be fired accidently. We know that an accidently fired gun could kill someone. Avadra Kedavra is never accidental. Instead, it is the ultimate in deliberated murder.

Thanks,

Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 10:54 am (#1075 of 1227)

I think it depends on where a soldier is fighting as to how personal it can be.

I don't see using a gun as impersonal either. A soldier facing an enemy is going to aim to kill.

I still don't see how using the Avada Kedavra curse requires hate. I requires power, as Barty Crouch, Jr. said, but nothing was ever mentioned by anyone about emotions needed to cast that particular curse. Bella explained what was needed for the Cruciatus Curse, but she didn't mention the Avada Kedavra.

I don't see how a DA member being in a battle with Death Eaters and using an Avada Kedavra to save another DA member, for instance, is murder. It would be defending an ally. While an Avada Kedavra can't be cast accidentally, it still seems that the situation the Wizarding World is facing might mean that the use of it might be warranted.

Joanne R. Reid - Feb 1, 2005 11:16 am (#1076 of 1227)

Hi,

OK, then try this:

The Harry Potter books are classic good vs. evil stories. In this regard they are not different from Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Dune or Dr. Who.

What differentiates the good buy from the bad guy? The bad guy represents all that is bad, dark and evil. What's bad, dark or evil about him? First, he does evil things. But, more than that, he thinks evil things. As the story unfolds we learn more about the bad guy. We discover that the reason he does evil things is because he thinks evil thoughts. That is his entire perspective is evil

What about the good guy? The good guy starts out as pathetically naive. He suffers at the hands of the bad guy. He is tempted to use the bad guys methods. However, in order to use those methods, he must become as evil as the bad guy. But, he is the good guy, so he doesn't fall into the trap of evil. Instead, he finds another way - perhaps even choosing self sacrifice - to defeat the bad guy.

That is, the good guy must, by definition, remain the good guy. The bad guy, however, doesn't necessarily have to remain bad. Some of them can be returned to the side of good.

Further, what happens if the good guy does fall off the wagon, defeating the bad guy by using evil methods? The good guy becomes the new bad guy. The cycle is repeated until a good guy not only wins, but does so by remaining psychologically pure and virginal.

JKR has provided us with the tools to differentiate good guys from bad guys. Bad guys use the Unforgivable Curses. Good guys don't.

Thanks,

Muggle Doctor - Feb 1, 2005 12:28 pm (#1077 of 1227)

I stand by the soldier parallel. The difference is that most GOOD (competent, capable or even "elite") soldiers do not enjoy killing, and in fact most people who enjoy killing do not make good soldiers. The military doesn't particularly like murderers among its ranks, because they are too difficult to control when it's time to stop shooting.

A soldier who is very, very good (read, skilful) at killing large numbers of enemies and who is dedicated to his cause IS NOT the same thing as someone who enjoys killing.

Until we interrogate Dolohov and hear what he used, there is no alternative to AK in battle. What happened in the Ministry is a lesson in the consequences of leaving your enemies able to be revived: they rejoin the battle and overwhelm you.

Hypothetically (and leaving aside killing per se), if every DE that was stunned could have remained out of action (instead of being able to be reactivated by their friends), the kids would have coped just fine.

We will have to disagree on this: in war, the gloves are off and killing is frequently the only option. In raids to capture prisoners, I agree: stunning spells are better. AK is necessary for people like Voldemort and Bellatrix, who are too dangerous to be left alive. Imperius might be a more merciful alternative, allowable to make a DE drop (or break!) his wand and surrender; Crucio is always evil.

Once again, this is not the Star Wars universe - one nasty act does not doom you forever.

It is not Middle Earth, but even the Hobbits realised in the end that they had to kill in order to save the Shire (book, not films).

It is not the world of Dune. To quote Duke Leto Atreides: To hold Arrakis, a man is faced with decisions which may cost him his self-respect.

It is not the world of the Time Lords, but even the Doctor committed genocide upon the Daleks ("Remembrance of the Daleks", in which he used the Hand of Omega to blow up Skaro's star), and has said in at least one of the books: I do not countenance the taking of life except where my own is directly threatened.

If Bellatrix, Voldemort and co. don't constitute a direct and constant threat to life, who does?

The only way to avoid the need to kill in the second Wizard War is to be vastly more powerful than your opponent. Only Dumbledore satisfies this criterion among the Aurors, or possibly Moody. The others are not that much more powerful (if at all) than the Death Eaters they face, and I fear that in regard to killing, tbey may have NO choice.

That, too, is a central theme of the Potter books - that not all good people always perform good ("politically correct") actions, and that sometimes drastic measures are required in the defence of right and freedom (Forget parallels to America/Iraq today; think about Europe and Nazism in WW2). Just how drastic this becomes is something JKR wants her readers to think about, and thank heavens that most of us on this board live in nations where we have a right to express our differences. Remember also that in many cases, people have died to defend this right.

Eric Bailey - Feb 1, 2005 12:54 pm (#1078 of 1227)

And, since Star Wars was brought up, Luke Skywalker killed quite a few of his enemies. Didn't have much choice. It's not like taking Voldemort alive is going to be an option. The prophesy was clear on that. Moody's a good guy, but it was specified that he took Death Eaters in alive whenever possible, indicating it wasn't always possible to do it.

Meanie Mom - Feb 1, 2005 3:58 pm (#1079 of 1227)

There are many "hero" stories that deal with the destruction of the "villian". In Aladdin and the Magic Lamp, the evil genie can't be outright destroyed, but he was tricked into getting back into his "lamp" that contained him.

I wonder if Harry won't be able to use some of Voldemort's arrogance against him and trick him into shattering himself.

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 4:56 pm (#1080 of 1227)

I like the soldier parallel listed a few posts ago but have an even better parallel. Police Officers are often called upon to use deadly force to prevent the lost of their lives or the lives of others. The police officer is trained to protect the innocent and to use deadly force only as a last result. The use of that force does not make the officer a bad person or a bad officer.

Since Auror's parallel police officers in the muggle world then I believe that this comparison more closely draws on what the students may be faced with when confronted with one or more DE's. If is comes down to one of the students or a DE, guess who I want to win.

In conclusion let me say that the training that this 18 year old American soldier received prior to being sent to Viet-Nam in no way prepared me for what I had to deal with. Midnight patrols into dense jungle with zero visibility. No amount of training prepares you for war. And it won't prepare the students either.

Mikie

Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 5:22 pm (#1081 of 1227)

Yes Mikie. I think the police officer parallel is even better - closer to what Aurors are.

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 5:38 pm (#1082 of 1227)

I agree Mikie, only those who have seen combat first hand are really prepared for it. For those who survived the DoM they will continue to refine their skills because, it is almost a certainty that they will see combat again.

Weeny Owl - Feb 2, 2005 12:52 am (#1083 of 1227)

Oh, excellent analogy, Mikie.

Aurors are definitely the police of the Wizarding World, and I can see some members of the DA having to play the role of a police officer.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 2, 2005 6:59 pm (#1084 of 1227)

Mikie I agree Aurors are similar to a police force. I also understand that the "good" guys have to kill at some point. The books are set up for Harry to be in a kill or be killed scenario. I hope that the DA will be able to help and support Harry. I also hope that they do not have to learn to kill. The more they train the better off they are. Granted no amount of training can prepare one for battle but the more weapons(spells) they know how to use the better their chances are. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 2, 2005 7:24 pm (#1085 of 1227)

Agreed LPO, I don't particularly like the idea of the DA having to face that choice but you are correct in that the more training they have the more they will be able to handle the events and consequences. LOL

Mikie

Detail Seeker - Feb 5, 2005 2:06 pm (#1086 of 1227)

Joanne, you wrote: Muggle soldiers undergo a long and intense training period, in which they are dehumanized. Drill instructors use every psychological trick to instill a so-called fighting spirit in civilians. The objective of this training is to turn off the civilized mind, and to supplant it with the mind of a killer.

I would like to know, how many trained soldiers you know, to state such bold or even insulting words.

Having joined the army now 20 years ago, having seen a time of active service and being active reservist for most of this time, I have not seen such things.

Please, if you argue to get your point, do it in a non insulting way. Thank you.

Joanne R. Reid - Feb 5, 2005 9:10 pm (#1087 of 1227)

Detail Seeker:

I'm a brat. I lived on bases. All my family's friends are military. I worked for several departments of the military. My brother, my husband and one of my cousin were killed in Nam.

It is not an insult to say that civilians are not physically or mentally prepared to kill. It is a fact. Even the most well-intentioned civilian will freeze when the sight a live creature, and especially a human, over the barrel of their weapon. That is why BT exists.

How do I know? I was on the many of the teams that developed or assessed the training programs used in boot camps to turn civvies into soldiers.

In more than fifty years of direct association with military personal, I have met two basic categories of men: those who killed up close and personal; those who didn't. I have personally interviewed many who did. I have helped to write the books, the manuals and prepare the instructors to train experienced personnel to perform as specified by those who have shown the way.

Since you're military, I ask you to find your local sniper instructor. Ask him what mind set he instructs would-be snipers to have. He'll tell you that to be a sniper ... to site a human in your scope and to pull the trigger .. requires him to clear his mind of all external thoughts. He must become an automaton. Thoughts of killing must pass over him and not affect him. He shoots at a target, not a person.

I do speak with some authority in this area. Not that I have done it. Even if I could have, I don't have the guts.

At no time do I denigrate the military personnel of this or any other country. You say you haven't seen such things personally. Be thankful. Many men that I have known and loved have faced such a time in their lives. Almost all of them still suffer from it ... whether it was sixty years ago, fifty years ago or only thirty.

So, when I say that neither Harry nor any other member of the DA has the mental capacity to perform the Unforgivable Curses, I do know of what I speak. When I suggest that to wantonly murder because one enjoys the taking of life; torture because one loves to hear a person screaming in pain; totally enslaves because one craves the overpowering of another person's soul, that one is evil, I do have some background in the mental processes necessary to perform such things.

Such people are so completely beyond our reconning as to be from another species. Exemplars are Bellatrix, Tom Riddle and Barty Crouch, Jr.

To use the Unforgivable Curses, Harry would have to become as depraved as are they. When he does become that depraved ... that inhuman ... then he has become Lord Voldemort incarnate.

Sorry for the rant. I got on my soapbox.

Thanks anyway,

Solitaire - Feb 5, 2005 9:45 pm (#1088 of 1227)

It sounds to me like you are describing trained assassins--who are indeed cold "killing machines." They are different from the troops who defend, aren't they? Unfortunately, in the process of defending, it sometimes becomes necessary to take one life in order to save many others. Do I like it? No. But it is a fact.

Do you not believe in the instinct of self-preservation, or the will to survive? When pitted in a kill-or-be-killed situation against Voldemort, is it beyond reach that Harry (or anyone else) might use an Unforgiveable and mean it ... on that one occasion? And, in your opinion, would that one use doom him to BE Voldemort forever after? If so, heaven help the Wizarding World ... for it would seem they are all potentially in Harry's position--doomed to kill or be killed.

Solitaire

Muggle Doctor - Feb 6, 2005 4:06 am (#1089 of 1227)

Can we please remember that the HP books are a work of fiction, and that the restrictions (or otherwise) on killing that apply in our politically correct society today DO NOT apply in a work of fantasy whose characters still very much retain a medieval mind-set over many things. They certainly don't apply in many other, less placid, parts of the world we live in today.

The HP characters seem to accept that if somebody is trying to kill you, you have at least a strong justification for killing them first. As the way they think is Rowling's business, not ours, we should just let it be and recognise that the difference between Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort is that Voldemort kills as easily as swallowing and without a second thought while Harry will agonise over it until the day he does it (to Voldemort), and will only be able to live with it afterwards because he knows that it was either that or the end of the world as he knew it.

Detail Seeker - Feb 6, 2005 6:13 am (#1090 of 1227)

Joanne, I will answer your post in a private mail, as I do not want to personalize the Forum discussion further.

Just this for all: Killing other people in a war situation is an aspect of humanity (a small one) as is the trial to closely regulate it. So, I cannot accept Joannes word "dehumanize" in context with military training.

So, this will be all about this from my side.

Solitaire - Feb 6, 2005 8:57 am (#1091 of 1227)

I agree, Muggle Doc. Taking our own personal beliefs and standards about war or any other controversial issues in the "real world" and attempting to establish "counterparts" in the fantasy world of Harry Potter is a tricky business, because there can be as many different interpretations as there are readers. Expecting everyone who reads the books to share one's own personal interpretations is unrealistic, because we all have different experiences which color our interpretations.

In the end, it is Jo's interpretations of these various issues that matter, because it is her fantasy world we are visiting.

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - Feb 7, 2005 10:25 am (#1092 of 1227)

Hi, Detail Seeker,

Yes, indeed, let's chat off line. It sounds to me like you are from a military background, too. I would thoroughly enjoy chatting with a pro.

Thanks,

TomProffitt - Feb 7, 2005 6:40 pm (#1093 of 1227)

As I have read over the last seventy-five or so posts I have noticed a fairly simple disagreement in the argument.

Do the Unforgiveables require an enjoyment of the outcome or do they merely require that the caster desire the outcome?

I come out on the "desire" side of the argument. I think it is akin to seeing Thestrals. You have to know death. To successfully cast AK you have to both want your target to be dead and to know what that means.

I think we've skipped over something in the nature of casting spells as well. We know spells can be cast without speaking. e.g. Marietta's memory modification & Hermione's injury in the MoM. An unspoken spell loses part of its power.

Why aren't the DE all casting AK in the MoM at the OP members? They don't care whether or not their targets live or die. It must be more difficult or possibly, both that and slower.

There's more to spell casting than we are fully aware. I don't think you have to evil (at least not the way I define evil) to cast an Unforgiveable, but you have to know exactly what you're doing to accomplish the spell. There won't be very many exceptions to the basic rule. In a world with a Stupefy Spell & Veritaserum there aren't going to be many opportunities to use AK or Imperio on a human being and remain innocent of wrong doing.

I don't believe we'll see the DA using the Unforgiveables for a simple reason. There are easier spells, with more reliable results, which they know how to use.

Muggle Doctor - Feb 7, 2005 10:09 pm (#1094 of 1227)

Tom Proffitt wrote:
An unspoken spell loses part of its power.

We haven't seen this stated as fact, although as surmise it sounds pretty accurate. Shacklebolt certainly modified Marietta's memory enough, though, and neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort seemed to be doing much in the way of spell incantation in the MoM battle - the only one I can remember is LV saying the AK incantation just as he was about to use it on Harry, but he seemed to shoot plenty of green bolts after that (including the one that killed - or should that be "recycled"? - Fawkes) without saying the magic words.

Otherwise I agree with it, especially the bottom line

In the end, I think, there will be a fair deal of killing done by both sides and it will all be justified in the name of "that's what you do on the battlefield".

I would prefer Harry to find another way than AK to finish off Voldemort, however - perhaps Godric's sword?

Solitaire - Feb 8, 2005 7:18 am (#1095 of 1227)

The comments about the unspoken spells have made me wonder ... could Neville have gotten better results had he merely pointed his wand and "thought" the spell (when he had the broken nose and could not properly pronounce the incantations)? Possibly, the more powerful one becomes--such as with Dumbledore and Voldemort--the less necessary it is to actually pronounce the words; perhaps the intent is all that is required. I'm sure we will find out more about this, as well.

Solitaire

Fred Cringe - Feb 8, 2005 9:03 am (#1096 of 1227)

Good point Solitaire. Although, the pupils at Hogwarts seem to be taught that a spell must be spoken and properly enunciated as well. There hasn't been any mention made by teachers or anyone else that a spell can be 'silent'. Unless the teaching regime is to give pupils a 'correct' grounding in spell casting leaving them to pick up 'knacks' and 'shortcuts' out in the wider WW.

My brother is a carpenter of 20 years experience. He was taught his apprenticeship fully but has learned lots of little 'tricks' since then which were never given to him in training.

Czarina II - Feb 8, 2005 10:22 am (#1097 of 1227)

I'm firmly in the belief that the DA members will not use the Unforgivables, in battle or otherwise. (Only exceptions -- MAYBE Harry or Neville.)

The Unforgivables are very powerful spells that require a mental connection -- in other words, the caster has to have intent, power, and the will to carry them out. Intent is very important -- you have to visualize or plan. Harry has the will to kill Voldemort and will soon have the power to do so (if he doesn't already). Power is just something a wizard comes upon with age; the will to do something is an innate trait. Intent, however, is specific to every situation. That is probably why many justice systems are set up to inflict greater penalty upon murderers who plan their crimes and those people who accidentally kill someone.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 8, 2005 4:01 pm (#1098 of 1227)

Tom, I think the DE had one mission: to get the prophecy. They did not want to leave bodies behind to announce Lord Thingy's return. The DA members did pretty well with easy, reliable spells. Sometimes simpler is better. LPO

Wand Maker - Feb 8, 2005 6:33 pm (#1099 of 1227)

I think that speaking a spell allows you to focus better on casting it. You probably have to have very good mental discipline/concentration to produce the spell you want with the effect you want.

Based on that, I don't think that Neville could have really done any better if he had 'thought' the spell. The DA was in an unfamiliar situation at the MoM and likely not composed enough to think spells.

Tom - Kingsley apparently did speak the obliviate spell in Dumbledore's office: As Dumbledore spoke, Harry heard a rustle behind him and rather thought Kingsley whispered something. He could have sworn, too, that he felt something brush against his side, a gentle something like a draught or bird wings, but looking down he saw nothing there.

The Unforgivable Curses, particularly AK need "a powerful bit of magic" (according to Moody/Crouch Jr.). To perform AK, one probably needs to work up to it. In the close contact and fast dueling that the DEs and Order members were doing in the MoM, trying to perform AK would have left one vunerable to being cursed by the opponent.

TomProffitt - Feb 9, 2005 4:38 am (#1100 of 1227)

Very much my thoughts on the matter, Wand Maker. Tarantalegra (or however that's spelled) must be quite easy, it seems rather an odd spell for battle.

I was referencing silent magic from memory, I'm certain there are other examples.

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Mona Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:31 pm

Choices - Feb 9, 2005 9:11 am (#1101 of 1227)

Thank you Wand Maker - I was just going to look up that part where Kingsley does the spell - I thought I remembered he whispered the incantation. You saved me the trouble. :-)

I think we have to remember also that these are "children's" books and as such, it would hardly be appropriate for the wizards to be throwing harsh, evil curses at each other all the time. Most of the curses, jinxes, hexes, enchantments, charms, etc. that they do are fairly harmless (aside from the unforgivables) and, often times, amusing.

sere35 - Feb 13, 2005 10:42 am (#1102 of 1227)

I don't think they are children's books. JK has said she is going to write the story she wants regardless of what people think. However if she changed the story at all because it became so popular and that so many children read it I would be very mad.

Choices - Feb 13, 2005 11:06 am (#1103 of 1227)

The very reason I put children's in quotes was because that is the label that is frequently placed on these books, but it does not reflect the true nature of the books. The books are for all ages. My 9 year old granddaughter has read all 5 books, my 30 year old daughter has read them all at least twice and I (a 62 year old lady) have read them through 12 times now. The appeal of the books is vast and to call them "children's" books is inaccurate as we all know.

sir nicholas - Feb 14, 2005 2:36 am (#1104 of 1227)
Edited by Feb 14, 2005 2:37 am

I think the reason why JKR doesn't exactly make the characters "shout out" incantations is that, these incantations are yet to be introduced.

Example: Snape and the Vanishing Spell — Evanesco! Before we actually heard the spell, Snape just waved his wand to vanish useless or incorrectly prepared potions. Later, he actually said it.

Dementors, before they were named as such, were only referred to as the "Azkaban guards" but afterwards, they were always called as "dementors."

We often see Dumbledore perform spells without incantations in earlier books, but in GoF and OotP, he can be heard muttering spells as simple as "Stupefy" and "Ennervate," not to mention "Lumos." "Portus", which is of course a complex spell, was introduced to us in OotP, and so everytime the spell is used, we hear the words.

There are other instances in the books where spells were uttered. But I also think that wizards are capable of performing spells without having to say the words, but Harry and the D.A. are not quite in that level yet.

Cornelia - Feb 19, 2005 7:37 am (#1105 of 1227)

Wasn´t in the DOM-Battle scene a DE silencio´ed by Hermione and hit her later with a curse just by pointing his wand on her?

And in Snapes worst memory Severus hurts James without saying anything. And he was only fifteen years old, too. So at least Harry should as well be able to perform spells without saying them loud.

Cornelia - Feb 19, 2005 8:41 am (#1106 of 1227)

I have forgotten something earlier "...The curse Dolohov had used on her(Hermione), though less effective than it would have been had he been able to say the incanation aloud, had nevertheless caused...enough damage to be going on with...

So if you only think a curse it´s less effective. Maybe you have to say the incantation aloud if you have to do big things, like clean up a big mess...

Muggle Doctor - Feb 22, 2005 1:31 pm (#1107 of 1227)

Could someone who knows how to put these things in the right place start a thread on "wordless magic" please? I think we need it.

Amilia Smith - Feb 22, 2005 8:41 pm (#1108 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor: There already is a thread on wandless magic. However it is due to be munched any day now, so you better hurry. (The last post was Jan 23.)

essie, "Wand Usage" #, 19 Dec 2004 5:35 am

Mills.

Muggle Doctor - Feb 23, 2005 1:39 pm (#1109 of 1227)

Sorry, did I not make myself clear? I said WORDLESS magic... as in, WITH a wand but saying nothing.

By the way, how DO you start a thread in 'the right place'?

Detail Seeker - Feb 23, 2005 2:55 pm (#1110 of 1227)

Muggle Doctor, to start a thread, you just choose "Add discussion" on the teal bar, write, what you deem worth being written and post it. Then "your" thread will land in the "Threads not yet approved" section. Some Host or Moderator will play sorting headand move it to the right section. This moving might take a while, especially when a thread might belong to several folders. The thread is open for discussion as soon as you posted it, though.

Gary L Varnam - Mar 8, 2005 5:43 pm (#1111 of 1227)

Gary Varnam also join the DA

Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2005 1:38 pm (#1112 of 1227)

Gary, this is not a fan-fic or role-playing community! This is for discussion of the (so far) five books that have been published.

Detail seeker, thanks for the help.

Ms Amanda - May 8, 2005 4:06 pm (#1113 of 1227)

I have a question. Once Dumbledore knew about the DA's formation in Hogsmeade, and since we know that Harry is closely monitored all year, why wouldn't he and everyone in the Order know that the DA's meetings were still taking place?

In other words, why would Dumbledore be caught off-guard when Umbridge discovers the group, as he seems to be?

mischa fan - May 8, 2005 4:32 pm (#1114 of 1227)

I think that Dumbledore was either caught off guard that Umbridge found out where they were meeting, he may have had a hand in picking that particular room, or he was pretending to be caught off guard. Dumbledore does seem fond of playing the old fool roll when it suits him to do so.

Muggle Doctor - May 8, 2005 6:08 pm (#1115 of 1227)

Perhaps because Umbridge is not the sort to wait: the instant she heard from Marietta, she'd have been on to it; perhaps telling Marietta to go to the session at which they were sprung in order to allay suspicion. There would not have been much time for Dumbledore (or anyone) to issue a warning, although Dobby's appearance at the last second might have been on Dumbledore's orders.

Solitaire - May 8, 2005 6:31 pm (#1116 of 1227)
Edited May 8, 2005 7:33 pm

Dobby acted kind of weird, though, as if he were doing wrong by telling Harry. Did Dobby consider Umbridge (the High Inquisitor) to be the boss by that time, even though Dumbledore was still the acting Headmaster?

I agree with Mischa Fan that Dumbledore does not mind looking foolish when it suits his purpose. Also, Dumbledore does not seem to have been caught off-guard ... not really. He "admitted" (p. 618, US ed. hardcover) to being the one who had called the meeting to "see whether they would be interested in joining me." Of course, we know that nothing of the sort had happened. But Dumbledore's actions had the effect of bringing the Ministry's "games and goals" out in the open.

Ms Amanda, I suspect that the Ministry probably does not monitor Harry's actions during the months of the year when he is under the jurisdiction of Hogwarts. I think it is more necessary when he is at 4PD and generally "out in the world," where DEs and other hostile forces would be able to "get at him." Just a guess, though ...

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 8, 2005 6:33 pm (#1117 of 1227)

I think Dumbledore didn't have a choice but to seem caught off guard. We know Sirius reported everything about Harry to him. He had to know about the DA. Muggle Doctor I like the idea of Dumbledore sending Dobby to warn Harry. I'm not sure that works though because Dobby was clearly disobeying orders from Umbridge. Since Dumbledore was still Headmaster I think Dobby would have to obey him before Umbridge. LPO

Choices - May 9, 2005 7:51 am (#1118 of 1227)

I think Dumbledore keeps tabs on Harry all the time. For example, when HRH went down the trap door and Harry confronted Quirrell/Voldemort, later at the banquet when Dumbledore handed out the points to HRH and Neville.....how did he know about Ron figuring out the chess game, Neville standing up to his friends, Hermione's use of logic and Harry's courage? Somehow Dumbledore knew exactly what had gone on down there and in the Gryffindor common room before hand. Doesn't miss a trick, that man!!

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 9, 2005 7:10 pm (#1119 of 1227)

Dumbledore must be torn by despair and amusement trying to keep tabs on HRH. I think he is a very good listener and pieces things together. I'm sure he got some of the story from Hermione. I think Hermione is a very useful person for Dumbledore. LPO

Solitaire - May 9, 2005 9:43 pm (#1120 of 1227)

Do you really think Dumbledore has had private conversations with Hermione? If so, I wonder why he has not given her the benefit of his wisdom concerning the house elves. I think a chat with Dumbledore is quite in order for her, regarding S.P.E.W.

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - May 10, 2005 2:24 pm (#1121 of 1227)
Edited May 10, 2005 3:24 pm

Hi,

Yes, Solitaire, I agree. Even though this also belongs on the Hermione thread, Harry or, preferably, DD HAS to tell Hermione to leave the Elves alone. A happy Elve is one who serves, who tends and who cares for people.

OK, it also belongs on the Elf String. It's just that everything gets mixed up with everything else.

I need a butterbeer!

Accio! Half-Blood Prince!

Thanks,

Solitaire - May 10, 2005 3:29 pm (#1122 of 1227)

You're right ... it does belong with the elves! I'll take it there, as I have more to say on this subject.

Solitaire

Gina R Snape - Jul 4, 2005 7:04 pm (#1123 of 1227)

I had a thought today that I think is best put here.

Snape's advanced potions class is composed exclusively of students who received the highest marks on their OWLS and who elect to take Potions. That means Potions class will not be a two-house class like in the past. It will be a mixed bag and a small class likely composed of students from all four houses in one.

This might be the opportunity they need to get to know some good slytherins, who could then wind up joining the DA.

Thoughts?

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2005 7:14 pm (#1124 of 1227)

Great idea Gina. Though I think Slytherin students would have to be careful in Professor Snape's class to not show they like Harry much. He might bully them into not having anything to do with Harry. LPO

Gina R Snape - Jul 4, 2005 7:26 pm (#1125 of 1227)

Well, I doubt a slytherin worthy of the house name would be dumb enough to appear to like Harry in front of Snape. But your point is well taken.

nu9p - Jul 6, 2005 8:42 am (#1126 of 1227)

Quick question...Do we know, that the DA will continue, or are we just speculating (sorry if this has already been discussed)?

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:30 am (#1127 of 1227)

We are just speculating, as far as I know. Given the return of Voldemort and the events in the DoM, some of us feel that the DA has proven its worth and we are hoping it will be allowed to continue.

Solitaire

Gina R Snape - Jul 6, 2005 10:20 am (#1128 of 1227)

I wonder if the DA will remain much of a 'secret' society though. Surely, the tales of the kids' exploits at the Ministry will sweep the gossip trail.

They formed in secret because of Umbridge. But they may want to be choosy about who gets in, if the do continue as a formal group.

Also, Harry enjoyed teaching his fellow classmates advanced DADA skills. But he'll be plenty busy with things himself, I imagine.

Liz Mann - Jul 6, 2005 12:24 pm (#1129 of 1227)

I wonder if this year will be as hectic as last, as far as academic work goes. They're studying towards NEWTs now but OWL year was supposed to be the worst (accourding to Fred and George). If Harry doesn't have quite as bad a work load as before, he should have even more time to devote to the DA.

Steve Newton - Jul 6, 2005 12:26 pm (#1130 of 1227)

But then Fred and George didn't really care about NEWTs.

I think that not even Dumbledore could end the DA. They're veterans, they're good, and they know it.

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:53 pm (#1131 of 1227)

I agree that the DA is no longer a secret. Perhaps it will become an official club. Or maybe, now that Dumbledore is back, it will just continue as a study group made up of friends. Unlike Umbridge, Dumbledore is not threatened by a bunch of kids practicing defensive magic.

Solitaire

The giant squid - Jul 6, 2005 11:08 pm (#1132 of 1227)

Unlike Umbridge, Dumbledore is not threatened by a bunch of kids practicing defensive magic.

I think that's the key to the future of the DA. I can see the following exchange:

HARRY: Er, I suppose, with Umbridge gone...you'll be shutting us down, then?

DUMBLEDORE: Whatever for? I have always encouraged extracurricular study, Harry. Perhaps a bit more study and less, um, action. And about the name...

--Mike

Liz Mann - Jul 7, 2005 5:02 am (#1133 of 1227)

That sounds exactly like the kind of thing Dumbledore would say.

Personally I think maybe the DA will stop, seeing as they were established because of Umbridge. But I think the people in the DA will get together again sometime in the future to defend Hogwarts or fight Voldemort.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 7, 2005 12:22 pm (#1134 of 1227)
Edited Jul 7, 2005 1:25 pm

"I think that not even Dumbledore could end the DA. They're veterans, they're good, and they know it."

Not everyone in the DA, just the six who fought at the DoM...

The rest of them may be good at defending themselves, but I can't see them as veterans, since they didn't fight and survive any real battles...

That reminds me... I am quite sure that Harry and the other five from the DoM will train them in dueling, or perhaps actual combat. The DoM Six fought admirably, but they had quite a bit of luck, and they were relieved by reinforcements from the Order... Harry will undoubtedly want the DA to be able to hold its own, should the Order be wiped out...

Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 12:27 pm (#1135 of 1227)

Harry will undoubtedly want the DA to be able to hold its own, should the Order be wiped out...

All the more reason to continue, as if they could be stopped.

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 12:48 pm (#1136 of 1227)

They're veterans, they're good, and they know it.

Interestingly, I think the battle with the DEs probably made the kids more aware of exactly what they are up against and how much they still have to learn. I hope it did ... because, although they acquitted themselves well for kids, I believe that if the DE had wanted them dead, they would have been dead long before the Order members arrived.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 1:05 pm (#1137 of 1227)

For sure, the initial hesitancy of the DEs to do a lot so that they could collect the prophecy did protect the kids. But after the melee started I think the kids held their own pretty well, considering that they were outnumbered.

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 1:36 pm (#1138 of 1227)

Yeah, they were outnumbered two to one ... Still, I'm glad the Order got there when they did, aren't you? If they hadn't, we might not be anxiously awaiting HBP!

Solitaire

Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 7, 2005 2:54 pm (#1139 of 1227)

I'm very thankful the Order arrived when they did, not only because it saved Harry and the others, but also because that is just such a cool scene! I can't wait for it in the movie... the door bursts open and the members of the Order are standing there looking supremely powerful, with light shining into the chamber behind them... That was just so awesome!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 8, 2005 1:46 am (#1140 of 1227)

"But they may want to be choosy about who gets in, if the do continue as a formal group."

I don't think so. They took all at the first meeting, even after asking whoever wanted to leave to leave.

As the war opens up and worsens the DA will be more keen to learn and practice, and recruit.

I believe the DA will be the "'ship" that can unite the Houses.

...toddles off muttering under breath...just my opinion of course...

Ponine - Jul 8, 2005 3:14 am (#1141 of 1227)

TBA: "I believe the DA will be the "'ship" that can unite the Houses."

How simple - how evident! (How embarrassing that I never thought of that...) I am sure you are right!

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 8, 2005 10:41 am (#1142 of 1227)

TBE I like that idea. Don't Toddle too far. Only 7 days 11 hours and 18 minutes... LPO

Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 11:24 am (#1143 of 1227)

I believe the DA will be the "'ship" that can unite the Houses.

Perfect, Twinkles! That's the best 'ship yet!

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 8, 2005 3:25 pm (#1144 of 1227)

ooh good one TBE.A butter beer your way.

sere35 - Jul 9, 2005 4:33 pm (#1145 of 1227)

TBE I don't like that idea at all. I want the DA to be more secretive and exclusive then the last book. I also don't want the houses to unite at all.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 9, 2005 4:38 pm (#1146 of 1227)

To each his own...

...toddles off elsewhere...

Paulus Maximus - Jul 10, 2005 11:28 am (#1147 of 1227)

Hermione would be disappointed if the DA didn't take "anyone who wanted to learn"...

Unless she's changed since last year...

Liz Mann - Jul 11, 2005 2:28 pm (#1148 of 1227)

I don't think Harry and Ron would want to take on any Slytherins. But Hermione might convince them.

sere35 - May I ask why don't you want the houses united?

Paulus Maximus - Jul 12, 2005 8:05 am (#1149 of 1227)

Ron definitely wouldn't want Slytherins in the DA, but Harry must realize by now that Voldemort's enemies are his allies, and Harry needs all the allies he can get...

Liz Mann - Jul 12, 2005 10:01 am (#1150 of 1227)

Uh oh, I sense a possible argument between them there.

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Penny Lane. - Jul 12, 2005 2:57 pm (#1151 of 1227)

I think the future of the DA also will depend on what kind of training that the kids will be getting from their new DADA teacher. If this year, they have one who actually teaches, they may not need to continue with the DA. Of course, the students who are in the DA are way ahead of their peers, so it might have to continue.

As for Slytherin - well, it would have to depend on whether or not there are any "good" Slytherins, wouldn't it?

Paulus Maximus - Jul 13, 2005 9:13 am (#1152 of 1227)

It would have to depend on whether any Slytherins oppose Lord Voldemort, which is probably as "good" as a Slytherin gets.

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 13, 2005 2:33 pm (#1153 of 1227)
Edited Jul 13, 2005 3:34 pm

Well, we know of one Slytherin who is working against Lord Voldemort. Okay, to be fair, his true loyalties are a wee bit controversial, but we know Slytherins can at least APPEAR to oppose Voldemort...

I'm speaking, of course, of everybody's favorite Potions master.

Liz Mann - Jul 13, 2005 4:19 pm (#1154 of 1227)
Edited Jul 13, 2005 5:20 pm

Anyway, even the ones who believe Pure Bloods are superior and hate Muggleborns don't necessarily have to agree with Voldie's methods of handling his own hatred.

I wonder, actually, if Snape isn't a bit prejudiced himself. Afterall, he made the password to the Slytherin Common Room in book 2 'pureblood'.

Muggle Doctor - Jul 14, 2005 6:33 am (#1155 of 1227)

Pureblood Slytherins will fall in line behind Harry et al. when they realise that getting their way may have consequences they don't want to be a part of. It's not so much the intentions of Voldemort I worry about as what his human disciples would be able to get away with doing under his rule.

Liz Mann - Jul 14, 2005 7:18 am (#1156 of 1227)
Edited Jul 14, 2005 8:18 am

Sirius said that his parents and many other people were in full support of Voldemort when he first started to gain power, until they saw what he was prepared to do to get it. Maybe it'll be the same this time around.

Saralinda Again - Jul 14, 2005 8:15 am (#1157 of 1227)

Or perhaps some of those parents still remember the choices they had been forced to make, and will opt not to make them this time. I'm not including spiffy DEs like the Notts and Goyles and Crabbes, and of course, the Malfoys.

(sigh) 36 hours. 36 hours.

Gina R Snape - Jul 14, 2005 6:36 pm (#1158 of 1227)

The Head of House makes all the new passwords? What about Head Boy/Girl?

Good Evans - Jul 15, 2005 7:05 am (#1159 of 1227)

Now that we know the Order of the Phoenix communicate through the patronus, how very handy that Harry has taught the next generation (newly swelling the ranks of the Order if this war goes on) how to conjure the spell. However they will need extra training in the art of how to use it to communicate.

Gina R Snape - Jul 15, 2005 8:03 am (#1160 of 1227)

Very good point, Good Evans!

wwtMask - Aug 1, 2005 11:15 am (#1161 of 1227)

So the DA disbanded. That wasn't entirely unexpected and, really, they didn't necessarily need to meet when they had a perfectly capable DADA teacher. I was a bit sad to see it go, however, because I think intense practice is exactly what they need to defend themselves. If the DA had met, I think Draco would've had a much harder time carrying out his plans because the DA would've used the Room of Requirement.

On a related note, Neville and Luna really stepped up to the plate at the end of the book while the rest of the DA was conspicuously absent. I think we were right in thinking that they would be at the forefront in defending the school. I just hope we see more of them in the next book.

Mrs Brisbee - Aug 1, 2005 11:26 am (#1162 of 1227)

Ah yes, at the end of HBP when Harry told Hermione and Ron to call on the rest of the DA, I was so happy! Finally, the DA comes in handy! But no. Only Luna and Neville come to help, because not surprisingly after over a year with no DA meetings most of the DA members aren't checking their coins. Why would they? But I still can't figure out why Luna couldn't have been sent to round up some of the Ravenclaw members or any of the Griffindors couldn't have gotten the rest of the Gryffindor members. Maybe Ron and Hermione still weren't taking Harry's suspicions seriously, so didn't make a big effort to round up help. Still, I was disappointed at the absence of the DA, especially at the critical moment they would have made the most difference.

Solitaire - Aug 1, 2005 12:12 pm (#1163 of 1227)
Edited Aug 1, 2005 1:13 pm

Still, I was disappointed at the absence of the DA, especially at the critical moment they would have made the most difference.

Yeah, Mrs. B. Weren't Ernie MacMillan and a lot of the others standing around in their PJs, looking confused? I'm away from my book, so I can't check. Too bad they didn't pitch in and help. Then again ... Harry and the Fab Five from the DoM have already seen some pretty serious wand-to-wand combat, so they more or less flew into action. I do not believe the "war" was quite real to the other DA members just yet. That will have changed, now that Hogwarts itself has been a battle site. It will be interesting to see if Ernie and the other DA members join in the fray next time there is combat action--or if they are even allowed to return in the fall. (I'm not really picking on poor Ernie; I'm just using him to represent the rest of the DA.)

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Aug 1, 2005 12:21 pm (#1164 of 1227)

Some of the DA won't return, of course. Cho was a year ahead of Harry and has finished Hogwarts by now, and it is likely that Marietta was in the same year as Cho.

The Patil twins, Seamus, and other DA members were hurried away from Hogwarts by their parents, although they might convince their parents to let them return...

On the other hand, we have Ron and Hermione, who will follow Harry to whatever end... and it is likely that Ginny, Neville, and Luna will do likewise...

I guess the questions are, will Harry return to Hogwarts? and will any of the DA return to Hogwarts even if Harry does not?

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2005 1:03 pm (#1165 of 1227)

The D.A. I think served its purpose of bringing Neville into his own as an equal with Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny. I think the D.A. demonstrated where Luna's loyalties lie and the extent of those loyalties and friendships.

Mrs Brisbee - Aug 1, 2005 1:54 pm (#1166 of 1227)
Edited Aug 1, 2005 2:55 pm

Weren't Ernie MacMillan and a lot of the others standing around in their PJs, looking confused? --Solitaire

To be fair, it was 15 minutes to curfew when Harry ran into Trelawny, so by the time Harry headed back to Gryffindor tower there was no way to contact the Hufflepuffs if none of them checked their coins. The Gryffindors and Ravenclaws were another matter, though.

Solitaire - Aug 8, 2005 10:50 am (#1167 of 1227)

It's too bad that the fab five Harry tipped off before he left with Dumbledore didn't rally the rest of the DA members to be on their guard. They might have helped a little ... maybe?

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Aug 8, 2005 11:44 am (#1168 of 1227)

It would have made a more satisfying read, at any rate. I would have loved to see the entire DA in action, protecting the school from an actual threat.

Snuffles - Aug 8, 2005 12:05 pm (#1169 of 1227)

I was hoping to see Neville and his new wand being a bit more successfull. We didn't see enough of him IMO in this book and I was sad that when he did fight he ended up flat on his little round face!

Dame Peverell - Aug 20, 2005 7:06 pm (#1170 of 1227)

I sent Neville an owlpost saying that the DA members should enlist new members themselves and train them too so that by the time book 7 comes nearly all the kids are practicing every chance they get.

I guess it was lost or damaged.

haymoni - Aug 20, 2005 9:16 pm (#1171 of 1227)

Or intercepted!

wwtMask - Aug 26, 2005 6:11 am (#1172 of 1227)

You know, I thought that continuing the DA would have been obvious, even without Umbridge around. Voldemort has is well-trained henchman, why shouldn't Harry? Honestly, the students are arguably more safe in allying themselves with Harry and practicing their defense constantly. That's probably my biggest complaint with the attitudes of the students and the teachers in HBP. The dueling club or defense classes should've been offered for anyone who wanted extra defense training, no matter how well guarded the castle was during the year.

Also, just think it'd be cool to have Harry tell Ron to "alert the old crowd" and have the DA emerge as a serious force for good.

M A Grimmett - Aug 26, 2005 9:30 am (#1173 of 1227)

Kind of Junior League OOTP.

Solitaire - Aug 27, 2005 10:48 am (#1174 of 1227)
Edited Aug 27, 2005 11:48 am

Mask, there is now a critical need for the DA to resume, since "the only one he (Voldemort) ever feared" is removed from Hogwarts. Hogwarts security has been officially breached, which means that every child still enrolled at Hogwarts is at risk ... assuming Hogwarts is still in operation in the coming year.

I would not be surprised to see courses like divination and history de-emphasized for a time--especially with the older kids--and subjects like DADA, charms, potions, and transfiguration become the major emphasis in such dangerous times. Competency in these areas may become a matter of life and death, and I suspect that is where the concentration will be.

I would not be a bit surprised to see the DA reassemble in Book 7.

Solitaire

Madam Pince - Aug 27, 2005 12:10 pm (#1175 of 1227)

MA Grimmett, I have to laugh -- here in the southern U.S. (or maybe elsewhere, too, I don't know for sure), the "Junior League" is a women's social and civic club consisting of somewhat upper-crust young married ladies, who generally do such things such as host fundraisers, teas, golf tournaments, fashion shows, and the like, usually for good causes like Hospital benefits, etc.

Now I'm picturing Molly and Tonks and the other ladies from the Order of the Phoenix holding a tea and fashion show....

I was also surprised that the DA sort of petered out in HBP. It was as if they felt that defeating Umbridge was their main goal, rather than defeating Voldemort. I would surely hope the club would re-form in Book 7! But I'm afraid Harry/Ron/Hermione are going to be too busy tracking down Horcruxes to organize it. Maybe this is an opportunity for Neville and Luna to step up and come into their own!

Weeny Owl - Aug 27, 2005 12:25 pm (#1176 of 1227)

Reforming the DA might give Ginny something to do until she works out how she's going to get Harry to stop being an idiot about their relationship.

I would love to know what Luna's Patronus is, though. Perhaps we'll finally see it in the seventh book and it'll be a Crumplehorned Snorkack or a Blibbering Humdinger.

Saralinda Again - Aug 27, 2005 1:29 pm (#1177 of 1227)

Madam Pince: was also surprised that the DA sort of petered out in HBP. It was as if they felt that defeating Umbridge was their main goal, rather than defeating Voldemort.

I thought that the primary purpose of the DA was to offer students a chance to do something other than read a book on Defensive Magical Theory during that period wherein Umbridge was insiting they needed no practical experience.

I presumed that the main reason the DA didn't meet (aside from the fact that JKR didn't have time/space to describe it to us) was that Snapikins was doing a fair job of teaching. I also thought that one of the two main reasons that JKR didn't show us much of the class itself was there was nothing for Harry to work against.

[The other reason, I believe, was that as a story teller, she wanted to keep Snapikins offstage as much as possible between Spinner's End and the Lightning-Struck Tower, so his appearance and action would loom all the more startling.]

Steve Newton - Aug 27, 2005 1:41 pm (#1178 of 1227)

"I thought that the primary purpose of the DA was to offer students a chance to do something other than read a book on Defensive Magical Theory"

That's not why the trio or Neville did it. The rest probably had a variety of reasons.

Dame Peverell - Aug 27, 2005 2:32 pm (#1179 of 1227)
Edited Aug 27, 2005 3:33 pm

Has anybody else noticed that apart from Moody/BC and Dolores, of course, DADA seems to be more like care of Magical Creatures? Grindylows, Boggarts, Pixies, Kappas, Hinkypunks, etc.?

...'s probably not important...

Sparrowhawk - Aug 27, 2005 2:48 pm (#1180 of 1227)
Edited Aug 27, 2005 3:52 pm

Dame Peverell,

For what we know DADA was not anything like care of Magical Creatures during Snape's tenure, was it? Most of the magical creatures that you refered to were mentioned for the first time by Lupin, during the third year, and he was also the teacher who taught Harry how to fight Dementors... a very different proposition, I believe. We don't really know what Quirrell taught the students. And whatever may be said against Gilderoy's inept teaching, it was more about himself than any magical creature... unless you count him as one of them!

Solitaire - Aug 27, 2005 10:23 pm (#1181 of 1227)
Edited Aug 27, 2005 11:24 pm

One reason the DA may not have reassembled was that Harry was rather busy, what with Quidditch and his special work with Dumbledore. Besides, now that Voldemort's return was acknowledged by the Ministry and several "covert" DEs had been unmasked--not to mention Fudge had been replaced--it is possible that the kids felt less helpless than they previously had. I guess the fact that they were in as much or more danger than ever, thanks to Draco's scheme, was beside the point. They may feel differently in year seven.

Solitaire

Dame Peverell - Aug 27, 2005 10:30 pm (#1182 of 1227)
Edited Aug 27, 2005 11:30 pm

Were Dolores's ridiculous decrees ever officially repealed?

Is DA banned?

Can the MoM still appoint a DADA teacher?

Paulus Maximus - Aug 28, 2005 10:08 am (#1183 of 1227)

Well, the "lifetime" ban that Umbridge put on Harry was obviously lifted...

...and Umbridge is no longer the High Inquisitor, or the Headmistress of Hogwarts...

...so I'd hazard a guess that her decrees have been officially repealed.

imprint of a departed soul - Sep 18, 2005 3:40 am (#1184 of 1227)
Edited Sep 18, 2005 4:41 am

Here's my list of DA members, possible reasons for joining and where they found out about it. It's possible that Ron and Hermione didn't tell all 25 of the people who turned up in the Hog's head.

Hannah Abbot: Told about the meeting in Hogsmeade by Hermione, but Hannah's reasons for coming were unknown.

Katie Bell: Unknown, but presumably found out about the meeting from a fellow Quidditch player.

Susan Bones: Had heard about Harry's hearing from her aunt Amelia. Possibly told about the meeting in Hogsmeade by Ernie and Hannah.

Terry Boot: Probably told what was happening by Michael

Lavender Brown: Unknown, but Hermione probably told her about the meeting.

Cho Chang: Forbidden to get on the wrong side of Dolores Umbridge by her parents, but wanted to be able to fight Voldemort because of Cedric

Michael Corner: Told about the meeting by Ginny, whom he was dating at the time. It's likely that Michael passed this information on to his friends Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot.

Colin Creevey: May have gone to the Hog's head simply because he idolises Harry. It's possibly he heard about the meeting from Ginny.

Dennis Creevey: A 2nd year, therefore not allowed in Hogsmeade, but most likely found out what was happening from Colin.

Marietta Edgecombe: Forbidden to get on the wrong side of Umbridge, but pressured into coming by Cho.

Justin Finch-Fletchley: Probably told about the meeting by Ernie and Hannah

Seamus Finnigan: Bought along to the DA's last meeting by Dean after Harry's interview in the Quibbler

Anthony Goldstein: Probably told about the meeting by Michael

Hermione Granger: The club was her idea

Angelina Johnson: Apparently interested in taking lessons from Harry on the condition that they didn't interfere with Quidditch practice. Was probably told about the meeting by a fellow Quidditch player.

Lee Jordan: Probably told about the meeting by Fred and George

Neville Longbottom: Knows what Voldemort and his death eaters are capable of and wants to be able to fight them if they ever come face to face. Neville also wants his grandmother to be proud of him.

Luna Lovegood: Saw the club as a chance to make friends, but also believed that Cornelius Fudge had a private army of heliopaths. It's likely that Luna found out about the meeting from Ginny.

Ernie Macmillan: Thought learning defensive spells would be more important than O.W.Ls. Ernie was also one of the first people at Hogwarts to openly declare his support for Harry. A gesture which Harry deeply appreciated, despite Ernie's pompous manner.

Padma Patil: Possibly told about the meeting by Parvati

Parvati Patil: Possibly heard about the meeting from Hermione and then passed the information onto Padma

Harry Potter: Hermione had convinced him to teach defence against the dark arts to anyone who was interested.

Zacharias Smith: Overheard Hermione talking to Ernie and Hannah. According to Hermione, Zacharias seemed interested in coming to the meeting at the Hog's Head. But he asked for proof that Voldemort had returned when he got there.

Alicia Spinnet: Possibly told what was happening by a fellow Quidditch player

Dean Thomas: Probably told about the meeting by Ron.

Fred Weasley and George Weasley: As well as wanting to learn some defensive magic, the twins may have seen the DA as a chance to rebel against Umbridge, the Ministry and their parents. Fred and George may have told their best friend, Lee and fellow Quidditch players, Angelina, Alicia and Katie about the meeting in Hogsmeade.

Ginny Weasley: It's unknown whether Ron or Hermione told Ginny about the meeting in the Hogs head, but it's possible that Ginny went along because, like her older brothers, she saw it as an opportunity to rebel against a few authority figures (remember Ginny's reaction when she was excluded from being told what was going on with the Order and Voldemort)

Ron Weasley: Always thought Harry teaching defence was a good idea.

Sorry about the long post.

Muggle Doctor - Sep 18, 2005 2:21 pm (#1185 of 1227)

Disappointed as I was to see the DA not coming to life for their ultimate test, I think it's probably better that it worked out the way it did. Look at it this way; most of them are fifth or sixth years, competent DA members, some of whom have seen action (against Draco and his thugs on the train) and who are good students in their own right. The dorms are probably locked down once the attacks begin (or at least the kids have - hopefully - been commanded to stay in them; we weren't told). Said dorms are full of terrified eleven-to-17-year-olds who know nothing except that a lot of noise is coming from outside the door. Each dorm (except Slytherin, which would probably stay untouched, for obvious reasons) is vulnerable to invasion by a Death Eater.

Even though they did not KNOW what was going on, and their presence in their dorms vs out and fighting was not a deliberate act, the presence of the DA members in their dormitories, rather than out in the fight, was probably the safest thing for their House-mates, especially the younger kids.

From this point of view, in hindsight, I think it's best that it worked out how it did: in addition, none of the DA apart from the Ministry veterans had had Felix Felicis (nor might there have been enough to go around), and some of them could well have been killed.

Instead they are all alive and able to either defend the school (those who remain) or their families (what's left of their families in Hannah Abbott's case) if they have gone home. And who knows, in the end, they may yet come storming in to save the fighting core of the organisation from a sticky situation (read, the DA will take on the Slytherins and keep them off H/R/H/G/N/L's backs).

I think once they realise what happened, they will probably feel very guilty; come on, JKR, please write this into book seven.

imprint of a departed soul - Sep 19, 2005 3:48 am (#1186 of 1227)

Here I am again with another long post (sorry about that), this one deals with internal relationships in the DA. I'd like to look at the order in which the students entered the Hog's Head

1. Neville, Dean and Lavender; Neville and Dean appear to be hanging around with each other a bit more than in previous years. In transfiguration lessons Dean partners Neville rather than Seamus.

2. Parvati and Padma Patil with Cho and one of her usually giggling girlfriends (Marietta); We know that Parvati and Lavender are best friends and they are both in Gryffindor. But Padma is the only female Ravenclaw in her year to join. Is she friends with the girls in her dormitory? Also Lavender, for once, isn't with Parvati. Do Padma and Lavender not like each other? Also Cho is very popular; why did she only bring one friend?

3. Luna Lovegood; Luna comes in by herself because she doesn't have any friends although Ginny probably told her about the meeting.

4. Katie Bell, Alicia Spinnet and Angelina Johnson; It appears that all three Chasers are friends off the Quidditch pitch. But why hasn't Katie, who is a year younger than the other two, bought any friends in her year along?

5. Colin and Dennis Creevey; Colin most likely came to the pub because he never passes up an opportunity to talk to, or be near, Harry. However, since Dennis started at Hogwarts we always read about the Creevey brothers hanging around with each other rather that anyone in their own year. Do they have other friends? Or are Colin's friends bored with his hero worship of Harry? That leads me to another question; In Colin's first year why would he want to prove to his father, a muggle milkman, that he had met Harry? In the muggle world, Harry is nobody special.

6. Ernie Macmillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hannah Abbott and a girl with a long plait down her back (Susan Bones); There are two things I noticed here. Harry doesn't know Susan's name even though he has had herbology classes with her for the past 4 years). I also noticed that Zacharias Smith who is in the same house (and possibly the same year) as the other four, doesn't come in with them. Ernie's position as a leader among the Hufflepuffs was established long before he received his prefects badge. Is it possible that Zacharias, if he is in the same year, does not want to be seen as one of Ernie's followers? Or is he better friends with the Ravenclaws?

7. Anthony Goldstein, Michael Corner and Terry Boot, Ginny, followed by a tall skinny blond boy from the Hufflepuff Quidditch team (Zacharias); It appears that Ginny entered the pub just after Michael and his friends rather that with them. Did she do this deliberately so that they would not look like they were together? Ginny didn't tell Ron she was going out with Michael because she knew he would take the news badly. And why are none of Ginny's friends present? As I've already mentioned it appears (from incidences later in the book) that Zacharias is better friends with the Ravenclaws than the Hufflepuffs. Does he genuinely prefer Anthony, Michael and Terry's company to Ernie's or Justin's? Is he following the Sorting Hat's advice (unite the houses)? or is he ashamed or embarrassed about being placed in Hufflepuff (a house full of old duffers) and think that Ravenclaw would have suited him better?

8. Fred, George and Lee; I didn't find anything to question or take notice of here, but if anyone else does feel free to post it.

Joanna S Lupin - Sep 19, 2005 8:29 am (#1187 of 1227)

I think Ron and Hermione invited only trustworthy (in their opinion) students, so it isn't at all odd that some of them didn't bring their friends along. Levander and Seamus were in the Harry-Potter-is-a-nutter club together so their absense is reasonable, maybe even Dean had a row with Seamus about it. Denis Creevey's presense in Hogsmead is questionable as he's a second year, but it's perhaps JKR's mistake only...

Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 8:33 am (#1188 of 1227)

I think that either of the Creevey's would be, um, innovative enough to sneak into Hogsmeade, although it is probably an oversight. I think that the twins would also, for a price, find a way to get him there.

kingdolohov - Sep 19, 2005 8:36 am (#1189 of 1227)

It would have been great if one of the Death Eaters had gone into one of the common rooms. There would be enough members of the DA in any one of them to take the DE out.

Snuffles - Sep 19, 2005 12:23 pm (#1190 of 1227)

We meet Dennis when Harry is in his 2nd year. In ootp Harry is in his 5th year, so wouldn't Dennis be in the 4th year? He would be allowed into Hogsmeade then.

Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 12:26 pm (#1191 of 1227)

I think that we meet Colin in second year and Dennis in 3rd.

Snuffles - Sep 19, 2005 12:29 pm (#1192 of 1227)

Duh, of course! *slaps hand onto forehead*

Joanna S Lupin - Sep 19, 2005 12:37 pm (#1193 of 1227)

Actually, we meet Denis in Goblet of Fire.

Snuffles - Sep 19, 2005 12:39 pm (#1194 of 1227)

Joanna, I only do one forehead slap per day, otherwise it hurts too much!!

I'll let Steve take that one!!

Joanna S Lupin - Sep 19, 2005 12:43 pm (#1195 of 1227)

He he no, let those who are flawless be first to throw a stone.

Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 12:45 pm (#1196 of 1227)

Shiver me timbers!

I won't cheat and edit but I knew that I should have given myself the out on Dennis. I wasn't sure and didn't remember to waffle.

Honour - Sep 19, 2005 9:30 pm (#1197 of 1227)

I think if JKR had written that the DA continued in the HBP with or without Harry, problem (1), then the next would be whether they would continue to use the Room of Requirement, problem(2).

In solving problem (1) this would have become a distraction from the storyline for JKR and with problem (2), Yes, they could have used another room to practise, but then again, it was said that the Room of Requirement was perfect for DA meetings as it provided space, cushions, and helpful books, but more importantly if the DA used this room they would have busted Draco much earlier in the story line which would have ruined the HBP story completely.

Patrick Mullan - Sep 20, 2005 12:19 pm (#1198 of 1227)
Edited by Sep 20, 2005 1:20 pm

What impressed me the most about the DA is when they are turned in by Marietta.

The list of all the names in the DA is presented to Dumbledore.

When he sees that the name of the secret society is Dumbledore's Army, he is quite speechless for a few moments.

I do not think he is speechless because of the list. His gentle heart is touched once again by the fact that so many would show loyalty to him.

Dumbledore, although he is a loving gentle soul, always seems to be deeply moved when others defend him, or stand by him in all of his plans.

This clearly demonstrates his noble heart, and his modest nature.

He is so busy giving of himself to others, that he is quite shocked when something is done for him out of loyalty, love or respect.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 20, 2005 5:10 pm (#1199 of 1227)

Well said Patrick!

Snuffles - Sep 20, 2005 11:21 pm (#1200 of 1227)

Exactly Patrick!

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