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Bones Family
Potteraholic Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:45 pm
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011.It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic
Nathan Henderson - Apr 1, 2006 6:49 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jun 16, 2006 1:40 am
I just want to make sure I got this right.
There is a Hufflepuff in Harry's year named Susan Bones.
Susan's grandparents (Mr. & Mrs. Bones) were killed by Death-Eaters in the first War.
Mr. & Mrs. Bones had 3 children that we know of: Amelia, Edgar, & [Susan's father]
Edgar Bones was killed along with his wife & children by Death-Eaters in the first War, just like his parents.
Amelia Bones was head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, quite possibly having succeeded Barty Crouch after he stepped down in disgrace. She was killed by Voldemort (or Death Eaters, though the Ministry suspect Voldemort himself) before the start of Half-Blood Prince.
As far as we know Susan's parents are alive and "well" (or as well as can be expected when your entire family is getting knocked off one by one).
Is all this accurate?
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Bones Family (posts #1 to #50)
Potteraholic Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:47 pm
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 1, 2006 9:08 am (#1 of 88)
The fate of Susan's parents is unknown, I do not think an assumption about their fate can be made. Also, I would add that Susan had a close relationship to her Aunt Amelia. This can be inferred from the fact that Amelia told Susan about Harry's patronus in OotP.
Choices - Apr 1, 2006 9:14 am (#2 of 88)
Check out the Lexicon information on the Bones family. I think there is some question about the grandparents vs. aunts and uncles. Mrs. Bones was called a grandmother in an early draft of one book, but may have changed to an aunt in the actual book. There is very little background information on the Bones.
Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 10:43 am (#3 of 88)
Nathan, the Lexicon information can be found at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] So far I believe everything you've said is correct.
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 12:53 pm (#4 of 88)
Susan bore her aunt's middle name (Amelia Susan Bones), so it seems obvious that Auntie was very close to Susan's parents. Perhaps she was Susan's godmother, too.
The fact that Amelia Bones was killed--Fudge believes by Voldemort himself--seems to indicate that she was important. Was she important enough that her death could not be trusted to a DE? Many members of the Bones family have also been killed. Why? Why would the DEs kill not only her uncle but also his wife and their children? Is there more to the Bones family than we have been led to believe?
Solitaire
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 12, 2006 1:09 pm (#5 of 88)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 2:21 pm
That is interesting Solitaire that you bring the point that Voldemort has personally killed only those that he deemed the greatest threat. He personally has killed three witches and one wizard who were important in the fight against him (Dorcas Meadowes, James Potter, Lily Potter, and Amelia Bones). I excluded Cedric Diggory and Bertha Jorkins because Voldemort did not personally kill them.
The questions I have is as follows: First, what was it about Amelia Bones that placed her in the same category as the Potters and Dorcas Meadowes was it merely her positions and influence? Second, why did Voldemort himself not kill Dumbledore?
Why would the DEs kill not only her uncle but also his wife and their children? Is there more to the Bones family than we have been led to believe?
Third, the same question needs to be asked of the McKinnons: Marlene McKinnon and her entire family were also murdered by the Death Eaters? What is it about the Bones and McKinnon families that made it necessary for virtually every member of those families to be eliminated?
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 1:15 pm (#6 of 88)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 2:20 pm
I thought about Bertha and Cedric, too, Nathan. I omitted them because, like you, they were not actually killed by Voldemort, even though he ordered their deaths.
I had not really thought about it, you know, until I looked at the link on the Bones family. Now, though, I can't help wondering if there was more to the Boneses than we know. Why kill those kids? Harry was the only known child target of Voldemort, and we know the reason why in his case. But why kill Edgar Bones’ kids? That seems kind of unnecessary, even for a DE.
Solitaire
Edit: I do not think Voldemort believed Draco would ever kill Dumbledore. I think he believed Draco would either die in the attempt or be killed because he failed ... a nice, nasty punishment to Lucius for a number of botched operations. I'm wondering what will happen to Snape and Narcissa over the Vow ... but that is for another thread.
frogface - Apr 14, 2006 4:20 am (#7 of 88)
My personal theory is that Voldemort killed Amelia Bones to prevent her from becoming the next Minister for Magic. Did she die before Rufus was made Minister? Anyway I couldn't imagine her imprisoning innocent people purely for moral or whatever stupid reason Rufus uses. Maybe the losses Susan has sustained will make her eager to join the fight against Voldemort.
Soul Search - Apr 14, 2006 6:01 am (#8 of 88)
Actually, there has been something about Susan Bones that has puzzled me for a while.
In SS, Susan is one of the few names of students we learn via the sorting ceremony. In the movie, she is the only minor character sorted (addition to Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco.) Her name comes up every now an then throughout the six books, but not all that much more than a few other characters.
Why was her name even mentioned in the sorting, and particularly, why was she the only minor character mentioned by name in the movie sorting?
Curious, but absolutely no idea why.
Holly T. - Apr 14, 2006 6:03 am (#9 of 88)
I thought she was sorted in the movie so there could be a bit part for Chris Columbus's daughter.
Soul Search - Apr 14, 2006 6:06 am (#10 of 88)
Edited Apr 14, 2006 7:37 am
Was Susan Bones played by Chris Columbus' daughter? That would explain everything!
Thanks, Holly T.
Finn BV - Apr 16, 2006 4:18 pm (#11 of 88)
Yes, she was played by Eleanor Columbus, and appears in all the classroom scenes, even though at times it contradicts the two-house-per-class rule. But that's the movie. Back to the canon discussions!
Chinese fireball - Apr 19, 2006 12:31 pm (#12 of 88)
Actually I am in an OotP re-read and thought of something. Why are some people solely killed by DEs and why like Edgar Bones and Marlene McKinnon they went after their family as well. Do we assume that they were all killed because the DE's must have went to their homes and other relatives happened to be there, too?
Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 9:40 am (#13 of 88)
I wonder if the Bones are related to Helga Hufflepuff. If so Dorcas Meadowes could have been a Ravenclaw heir and guardian of an heirloom. This would explain why Voldemort killed her and Amelia Bones specifically, because of the founders’ connection. How this fits in with the heir of Gryffindor I don't know but it’s a thought.
Mattew Bates - Apr 20, 2006 9:54 am (#14 of 88)
We already have a Helga Hufflepuff descendant in Hepzibah Smith. Why would JKR need another one? Still, I have also wondered about Dorcas Meadowes... Also, I'm not sure we need an "Heir of Gryffindor" when we have a perfectly serviceable "True Gryffindor" in Harry.
Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 11:56 pm (#15 of 88)
Hepzibah is a descendant where the Horcrux is concerned. I am wondering if the fact that Voldemort saw Amelia and Dorcas as big enough threats to kill them himself could be related to the founders of Hogwarts. What better way to honour his ancestor by wiping out the relatives of the founders. So that Slytherin would be the greatest. With the Horcruxes, Slytherin would live forever through Voldemort.
I know this post isn't well worded but I hope people se what I'm getting at.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 2:31 pm (#16 of 88)
I really like the idea that those Witches and Wizards killed by Big V himself might possibly be descendants of the founders. Great idea!
Solitaire
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 6:10 pm (#17 of 88)
I really like the idea that those Witches and Wizards killed by Big V himself might possibly be descendants of the founders.
Hmmm....wonder to whom the Potters are related?
mike miller - May 5, 2006 3:04 pm (#18 of 88)
I think JKR is giving us a Horcrux hint when she specifies "killed by Voldemort himself". Tom used significant murders to make his earliest Horcruxes, so it follows that he would have kept the same pattern. Remember what Dumbledore said to Harry after watching his first meeting with Tom in the Pensieve, he collects "trophies"...
Can someone more adept at research than me put together a list of those murders (or murderous events) we know for certain were committed by Voldemort himself? Might have a coincidental number here.
The entire family might have been killed to eliminate any witnesses to the Horcrux creation.
Lilly P - May 6, 2006 8:25 pm (#19 of 88)
The entire family might have been killed to eliminate any witnesses to the Horcrux creation - mike miller
I really like that idea mike!!!
(also LOVE the Stevie Ray Vaughn pic!)
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 10:01 am (#20 of 88)
If one can witness (and understand) the creation of a Horcrux, then wouldn't that eliminate the possibility of Voldemort's having created a Horcrux in front of Dumbledore, there in his office? I mean, if anyone else could recognize that a Horcrux was being created, surely Dumbledore could. Wouldn't he have mentioned it?
Solitaire
mike miller - May 7, 2006 12:49 pm (#21 of 88)
Solitaire - I'll look for your response on the Horcrux thread as this thread seems to be straying from the Bones Family.
What's the theory about Voldemort creating a Horcrux right in front of Dumbledore? I can't recall that bit of speculation, but I've been away for a while.
Die Zimtzicke - May 10, 2006 9:08 am (#22 of 88)
I was really disappointed that Susan wasn't in HBP more. I wish Harry had at least shown a little more sympathy to her, as someone who knows what it's like to suffer at Voldemort's hands, and who had known Madam Bones. He just blew it off. After Susan said that one time she knew what it felt like to be Harry, I thought they would become closer friends. It frustrated me that she went back to being a bit player when she had so much potential.
I really thought Madam Bones was going to be MoM, and the idea that she was killed to prevent that makes sense to me.
Soul Search - May 11, 2006 4:09 pm (#23 of 88)
This idea has been nagging for a while, so I am going to present it for comments. I don't, necessarily, like the idea, but ... well let me describe where it came from.
I was looking at some posts on the 'Things which struck you as "odd"' topic related to Umbridge and how she was still at the Ministry and came to Dumbledore's funeral. There didn't seem to be a reason for Umbridge to be mentioned at all.
I had the OotP audio on in the background and "The Hearing" chapter caught my attention. Amelia Bones is introduced as: Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. Sounds like the equivalent of a District Attorney (US.) Anyway, responsible for investigation and prosecution of any acts against wizarding law.
Throughout the hearing, Amelia Bones seems objective and certainly not under Fudge's thumb. She is doing her job, in spite of Fudge's obvious agenda to discredit Harry. She accepted Mrs. Figg's testimony. Dumbledore then suggests that the Dementors had been ordered to Privet Drive and states some rather good logic.
Now ...
Dumbledore then states "I was merely expressing my confidence that this matter will not go uninvestigated." He glances at Madam Bones, who "... readjusted her monocle and stared back at him, frowning slightly."
Did Madam Bones investigate Dementors in Privet Drive. If she did, she no doubt discovered that Umbridge sent them. The whole process was too complicated to leave no clues.
We learn in HBP, "The Other Minister," that Amelia Bones was killed "... and all the evidence was that she put up a real fight." Fudge claims that he knows who did it, meaning Voldemort, but doesn't give any evidence that proves it.
We know that Umbridge is "A nasty piece of work." She sent the Dementors after Harry and was prepared to Crucio him to get Dumbledore's "weapon." She would stop at nothing.
I have it in mind that Umbridge killed Amelia Bones. Madam Bones did investigate the Dementors, evidence led to Umbridge, Bones confronted her, they dueled, Bones lost.
Book seven doesn't really need another plot line, but why was Umbridge even mentioned in HBP.
Bring it on.
Choices - May 11, 2006 4:54 pm (#24 of 88)
Edited May 11, 2006 5:56 pm
That's an interesting idea Soul Search. You may be on to something. I'm not too sure how powerful (magically) a witch Umbridge is or if she could beat Bones in a duel, but another possibility is that she could have arranged to have Bones killed. Umbridge is certainly devious enough.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 7:59 am (#25 of 88)
I like the idea, Soul Search, because I liked Madam Bones and hated Umbridge. The only fly in the ointment is that I believe Mme. Bones was a more capable witch than Umbridge. If Umbridge did do her in, I doubt skill with a wand was the trump card. I would suggest some elaborate trick, ambush, or assistance would have been necessary on Dodo's part. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Soul Search - May 13, 2006 2:51 pm (#26 of 88)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:52 pm
Choices, Solitaire,
I agree that Umbridge wasn't the witch that Madam Bones was given to be. At Hogwarts, she couldn't even handle the twin's fireworks and swamp, with which the Hogwarts staff had no problem.
I think, though, that there is a better scenario that could work into the book seven storyline.
I strongly suspect that Lucius Malfoy, noted death eater, had something to do with the Dementors at Privet Drive. Anyway, he knew Umbridge was responsible.
Voldemort is recruiting. Anyone in the Ministry would be a great find. The Senior Undersecretary would be a major coup.
Given that Madam Bones is researching Dementors at Privet Drive, Umbridge is vulnerable.
So, we have Umbridge running scared, Malfoy goes to her (before the end of OotP) and offers a solution: help Voldemort and we will take care of Madam Bones. So, as soon as it looked like Madam Bones had discovered the truth, a death eater took her out.
Some events support this theory:
Draco Malfoy is one of her "inquisitorial squad."
Umbridge mentions Lucius Malfoy to Snape.
Umbridge seems panicked. She is even willing to perform an unforgivable curse on Harry and admits to sending the Dementors. Did she want the "weapon" for the Ministry ... or for Voldemort?
From the end of OotP, through HBP, the Ministry seemed decidedly ineffective against Voldemort and death eaters. They got nowhere. While I don't hold the Ministry in high regard, there must be some good Aurors. Was Umbridge telling Voldemort of their plans?
This all might fit into book seven better than Umbridge merely killing Madam Bones. Does Harry have another fight on his hands?
Choices - May 13, 2006 5:24 pm (#27 of 88)
I don't exactly think that Umbridge is working for Voldemort, but she sure isn't working against him, is she!!
Finn BV - May 13, 2006 8:58 pm (#28 of 88)
Umbridge isn't evil. She's bad. MuggleNet wrote an excellent support of JKR's editorial on fat models, and they covered the difference between "bad" and "evil." The Dursleys, for example, are not "evil" ó they're simply characters who just aren't on Harry's side. That doesn't mean they're out to get him. Umbridge comes closes to the border of bad and evil, but she's just not a Death Eater. She didn't have any reason to kill Amelia Bones, and if she did, she would have to classify as evil, which she isn't ó sure, she set Dementors on Harry, banned him from Quidditch, ruined the back of his hand, and tried to generally make his life miserable, but she wasn't doing it on Voldemort's orders. I think there is a notable distinction.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 9:34 pm (#29 of 88)
Edited May 13, 2006 10:35 pm
I agree that the Dursleys are bad. I still, however, reserve the right to call Umbridge evil. For all intents and purposes, she attempted to have Harry murdered ... or at least soul-kissed, which might be worse than death. And she was positively bloodthirsty with that evil quill. I don't think she needs to be affiliated with Voldemort to be evil. She does quite well on her own. Her vile deeds were all done to further her own position. As far as I can see, she is not much different from Voldemort. Her scope is just smaller ... but this is the Bones Family thread. I suppose any discussion of Umbridge should move to her thread.
Solitaire
edited
Soul Search - May 14, 2006 7:57 am (#30 of 88)
Umbridge crossed the line between "nasty piece of work" and "evil" when she sent Dementors after Harry. Is there any act more evil than wishing someone's soul to be sucked out? So, killing (or having killed) Madam Bones is just another small step in evil's direction.
Umbridge is evil, but she hasn't been invited to become one of Voldemort’s "inner circle," a death eater. She is just passing MoM information to him, and perhaps helping to thwart the MoM's war against Voldemort.
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 8:57 am (#31 of 88)
Soul Search, I've responded to your post over on Umbridge's thread, as my response had more to do with Umbridge than with Mme. Bones.
Solitaire
Madame Pomfrey - May 15, 2006 6:50 am (#32 of 88)
Soul Search, I am in total agreement with your post #23 as I said some the same things on the DJU thread before I had a chance to read this one. Good catch about Dumbledore looking at Madame Bones and saying he hoped the matter wouldn't go uninvestigated-I missed that one. The only thing I would like to add is the fact that when Fudge was talking about Madame Bones' death to the Prime Minister he was stammering a bit and spinning his bowler hat which he quit doing with an effort. I think he was lying.
Soul Search - May 15, 2006 7:58 am (#33 of 88)
Madame Pomfrey, you also made some other interesting observations in the "Dolores Jane Umbridge" topic.
It appears that Madam Bones was killed by something other than an AK, which is Voldemort's signature killing method. Might mean Voldemort didn't do it.
The room was locked from the inside and, it seems likely, that a Ministry official's house would be protected against Apparating into it.
And, Catherine pointed out that the Dark Mark was not mentioned. Surely, if Voldemort or a DE had killed such a high-ranking Ministry official, they would have wanted to show off with the dark mark.
Solitaire suggests that Nagini or Wormtail (as a rat) may have been able to find a way into the house. This would explain the signs of a struggle.
Fudge spinning his hat is VERY interesting. I missed that and I think there must be some significance. I recall Fudge spinning his hat in CoS when he came to take Hagrid off to Azkaban and in PoA when he was talking about Sirius Black to Harry. In both situations he was, at least, lying by omission.
I don't think Fudge was responsible for Madam Bones' death, but I wonder if he suspects Umbridge of some responsibility. Madam Bones would have advised him of her "Dementors at Privet Drive" investigations. He now might suspect Umbridge of Madam Bones death. Yet, if he mentions it, he would have to accept responsibility for the Dementors since it was done on his watch. Or, Umbridge could get after him.
What a web we weave ... .
Madame Pomfrey - May 15, 2006 1:49 pm (#34 of 88)
Soul Search, I think after seeing your post and the Dark Mark comment made by Catherine, I'm really convinced that neither Voldemort nor his DE killed Madame Bones. Why would Voldemort kill her personally as Fudge suggested? Why her and not the Minister or some other official, unless she was in the Order? We do not know if she is in the Order, we just know that her brother was-he and his whole family killed by DE. What I am getting at is if we knew for certain that she was in the order that would give good cause for her to be killed by DE or Voldemort and Snape would have boasted to Bella about his having a hand in her death such as he did with Emmeline Vance and Sirius in Spinners End. Oh, geez, I think I'm confusing myself.
Miss Black - May 15, 2006 3:56 pm (#35 of 88)
Edited May 15, 2006 4:59 pm
Amelia seems to have been a good person. Lupin assures Harry that she'll give him a fair trial and Fudge claims that she was an extremely gifted witch. I'm wondering if she was in the Order. Or was involved in some anti-Voldy front since he felt it was so important to murder her in person. As far as I know Voldemort would only have murdered her for a reason especially in person. She might also be the infamous RAB though I doubt it. It’s unlikely that someone didn't have a really good reason for killing her.
virginiaelizabeth - May 15, 2006 4:59 pm (#36 of 88)
I don't think that Voldemort killed her himself, because AK is quick, unexpected, and unblockable so if there were signs of a struggle, I don't think it could be AK. I don't think Voldemort would waste his time on a murder by using something other than AK. It doesn't fit his personality.
As for the lack of Dark Mark, that to me is a very small detail that JKR left out, hoping that we wouldn't pick up on it too quickly, but I also think its a red flag. Fudge(i think?) tells us that the DE's got her, yet biggest sign that a DE has murdered, is the Dark Mark, so why wasn't there one above Amelia's house?
Ok just trying to straighten this out in my head, Fudge gets nervous when telling the prime minister about the murder, however, I don't think Fudge has the kinda personality traits to kill, at least not on purpose. He is too much of a scaredy cat, so the only thing I can come up with is that he knows something about it, or at least more than he lets on to or has told to anyone. I'm not so keen to think Umbridge did it though, she's evil yea but would she really kill someone? Then again, she wasn't afraid to send Dementors after Harry and use the Cruciatus curse, so who knows what she's capable of.
This whole murder is just fishy.....
Nathan Zimmermann - May 16, 2006 8:01 am (#37 of 88)
I had a thought about the Dark Mark not being mentioned as being set over the crime scene at the Bones murder.
Perhaps the Dark Mark is only sent up on orders from Voldemort. In other words the Dark Mark is only supposed to be used on Voldemort's order, and is only present at those murders Voldemort commits or those murders that he orders the Death Eaters to carry out.
If the Dark Mark can only be used on orders from Voldemort, and Voldemort did not order or carry out the murder of Amelia Bones himself. As such the presence of the Dark Mark over the scene of Amelia's death would alert Voldemort, that his followers had committed a murder without his approval or knowledge.
Also, the case against Umbridge is stronger because, if she had committed the murder herself or ordered it. It is unlikely she would know the incantation necessary to produce the Dark Mark since it us only known to Death Eaters. (cf GoF chapter nine).
Choices - May 16, 2006 11:18 am (#38 of 88)
Barty Crouch, Jr. sent up the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup and he seemed to have acted strictly on his own in that - not on Voldemort's orders. I think perhaps the lack of the Dark Mark over Madam Bones' house was because Voldemort wanted her dead - perhaps she was slated to become the next MOM or something and he wanted her out of the way to get someone else in that position - but he did not want to be connected to the murder for some reason.
Detail Seeker - May 16, 2006 12:57 pm (#39 of 88)
The fact, that no Dark Mark was mentioned, does not mean, that here was none.
If the she lived in a place far from other wizards, no wizard might have seen it and no Muggle came forward to tell a story for fear of not being believed.
We do not know, how long a Dark Mark remains in the sky. It might have vanished before anybody realized, it was there.
There was talk about Dementors induced fog being around. Was this fog present in the area of her house and did this fog ruin the chances of the Dark mark being seen ?
Explanations, why nobody saw this Dark Mark or mentioned it, are many, so we cannot definitely say, it was or it wasn’t there.
haymoni - May 16, 2006 5:45 pm (#40 of 88)
Maybe Muggles can't see the Dark Mark.
It would be hard to modify so many memories.
Certainly the Death Eaters wouldn't care what a Muggle thought.
Choices - May 16, 2006 6:14 pm (#41 of 88)
The Dark Mark is evidently a big deal and I think it would have been mentioned had it been there.
frogface - May 17, 2006 2:47 am (#42 of 88)
I don't see why it would have been mentioned, why would they tell the Prime Minister about the mark? The basic jist of the conversation is that bad stuff is happening in the Wizarding World and the law states that the Prime Minister needs to be alerted. I'm sure they probably tell him as little as possible though, they probably wouldn't tell him anything if it wasn't part of the law. The Dark Mark may or may not have been there, we just can't be sure. It's an interesting theory though, I'll grant you that.
On the other hand I find it more interesting that they suspect Voldemort did it directly. What motive did he have in killing Amelia Bones, and what evidence suggested that it was him that did it?
Choices - May 17, 2006 11:34 am (#43 of 88)
I think they would inform the Prime Minister about the mark because if Muggles saw it (if indeed they can see it) the Prime Minister would have had to explain and he probably had no clue what it meant. He would need to calm the fears (make up a good cover story) of the public concerning the mark and what it represented.
Pamzter - May 17, 2006 3:39 pm (#44 of 88)
Well in reading the last dozen or so ideas I'm beginning to suspect Scrimgeour (sp?) of Amelia's murder. If she was next in line for MOM then he was the main person to benefit, wouldn't leave the Dark Mark, and Fudge might reasonably be a (nervous) accomplice to it.
rettoP yrraH - May 17, 2006 9:46 pm (#45 of 88)
C...a....n...t... r....e....s...i...s....t
The leg bones are connected to the thighbones the thighbones are connected to the hipbones. ok, that’s out of my system
Muggles can see the dark mark, look in book 4 during the Quidditch world cup. At least I think its there...
frogface - May 18, 2006 3:35 am (#46 of 88)
Its never indicated that any Muggles saw that Dark Mark though. And in fact that brings up an interesting point. Fudge didn't mention the Dark Mark on that occasion to the Prime Minister, so I still don't see why they'd mention it now.
Madame Pomfrey - May 18, 2006 5:52 am (#47 of 88)
Edited May 18, 2006 6:56 am
Soulmate for Sirius brought up something on the DJU thread, the fact that Fudge and Umbridge are still with the Ministry is fishy in the sense that if Madame Bones would have been Minister she probably would have had the whole thing investigated and fired Umbridge(if she wasn't investigating already)and probably not kept Fudge around either. I smell a cover-up and it stinks!
On the Dark Mark... I really don't think Muggles would be able to see it, they don't see nuffink, do they?
Phelim Mcintyre - May 19, 2006 5:08 am (#48 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 6:10 am
Madame Pomfrey, I can here the Muggles now "Oh look Derek, that cloud looks just like a skull. How pretty."
As to Amelia Bones investigating Umbridge, I think that may have started through Amelia being the Minister for Law Enforcement (or whatever her correct title was).
Madame Pomfrey - May 19, 2006 7:20 am (#49 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 8:22 am
LoL Phelim!
Yes, I believe that she would have started the investigation maybe as soon as after Harry's trial, but for sure after the appearance of Voldemort in the MoM.
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 19, 2006 9:40 am (#50 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 10:42 am
Madame Pomfrey, I'm glad you brought up my post on the Umbridge thread, I was just about to do that myself.
I posted over there that I felt there may be more to Amelia's murder then just Umbridge trying to cover up the Dementor incident (assuming you believe Dolores had something to do with this murder) Here were my thoughts...
Scrimgeour told the Prime Minister that he was keeping Fudge on as a sort of liaison between himself and the Prime Minister, and I think it's safe to assume that Umbridge's appearance at DD's funeral is proof she's still working at the Ministry. So, it's clear that Scrimgeour is fine with keeping these two around the MOM despite what happened the previous year. This has got to make Umbridge (if not Fudge as well) very happy.
On the other hand, I really can't see Mme Bones being as forgiving of these two. I doubt she would have kept Fudge on at all, and I feel safe saying that I think she would have most certainly looked into Umbridge's actions at Hogwarts and before and in the end sacked her.
So, what this all comes down to is that I think, that for these reasons, it is entirely plausible that Dolores had some part in Mme Bone's murder. Not because I think she's working with the DE's but because she wanted to save her own reputation and her job within the Ministry. After all, do we have any proof that she's not still Senior Undersecretary to the Minister of Magic? That's got to be a very prestigious position within the Ministry, and I see her as someone who would murder just to keep it. She seems that evil to me!
On the Umbridge thread, I went on to talk about this tactic as very "Slytherin-like" of Dolores, but here, I think it's relevant strictly for the sake of discussing possible scenarios for Amelia's murder...
-Jenn
The fate of Susan's parents is unknown, I do not think an assumption about their fate can be made. Also, I would add that Susan had a close relationship to her Aunt Amelia. This can be inferred from the fact that Amelia told Susan about Harry's patronus in OotP.
Choices - Apr 1, 2006 9:14 am (#2 of 88)
Check out the Lexicon information on the Bones family. I think there is some question about the grandparents vs. aunts and uncles. Mrs. Bones was called a grandmother in an early draft of one book, but may have changed to an aunt in the actual book. There is very little background information on the Bones.
Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 10:43 am (#3 of 88)
Nathan, the Lexicon information can be found at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] So far I believe everything you've said is correct.
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 12:53 pm (#4 of 88)
Susan bore her aunt's middle name (Amelia Susan Bones), so it seems obvious that Auntie was very close to Susan's parents. Perhaps she was Susan's godmother, too.
The fact that Amelia Bones was killed--Fudge believes by Voldemort himself--seems to indicate that she was important. Was she important enough that her death could not be trusted to a DE? Many members of the Bones family have also been killed. Why? Why would the DEs kill not only her uncle but also his wife and their children? Is there more to the Bones family than we have been led to believe?
Solitaire
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 12, 2006 1:09 pm (#5 of 88)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 2:21 pm
That is interesting Solitaire that you bring the point that Voldemort has personally killed only those that he deemed the greatest threat. He personally has killed three witches and one wizard who were important in the fight against him (Dorcas Meadowes, James Potter, Lily Potter, and Amelia Bones). I excluded Cedric Diggory and Bertha Jorkins because Voldemort did not personally kill them.
The questions I have is as follows: First, what was it about Amelia Bones that placed her in the same category as the Potters and Dorcas Meadowes was it merely her positions and influence? Second, why did Voldemort himself not kill Dumbledore?
Why would the DEs kill not only her uncle but also his wife and their children? Is there more to the Bones family than we have been led to believe?
Third, the same question needs to be asked of the McKinnons: Marlene McKinnon and her entire family were also murdered by the Death Eaters? What is it about the Bones and McKinnon families that made it necessary for virtually every member of those families to be eliminated?
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 1:15 pm (#6 of 88)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 2:20 pm
I thought about Bertha and Cedric, too, Nathan. I omitted them because, like you, they were not actually killed by Voldemort, even though he ordered their deaths.
I had not really thought about it, you know, until I looked at the link on the Bones family. Now, though, I can't help wondering if there was more to the Boneses than we know. Why kill those kids? Harry was the only known child target of Voldemort, and we know the reason why in his case. But why kill Edgar Bones’ kids? That seems kind of unnecessary, even for a DE.
Solitaire
Edit: I do not think Voldemort believed Draco would ever kill Dumbledore. I think he believed Draco would either die in the attempt or be killed because he failed ... a nice, nasty punishment to Lucius for a number of botched operations. I'm wondering what will happen to Snape and Narcissa over the Vow ... but that is for another thread.
frogface - Apr 14, 2006 4:20 am (#7 of 88)
My personal theory is that Voldemort killed Amelia Bones to prevent her from becoming the next Minister for Magic. Did she die before Rufus was made Minister? Anyway I couldn't imagine her imprisoning innocent people purely for moral or whatever stupid reason Rufus uses. Maybe the losses Susan has sustained will make her eager to join the fight against Voldemort.
Soul Search - Apr 14, 2006 6:01 am (#8 of 88)
Actually, there has been something about Susan Bones that has puzzled me for a while.
In SS, Susan is one of the few names of students we learn via the sorting ceremony. In the movie, she is the only minor character sorted (addition to Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco.) Her name comes up every now an then throughout the six books, but not all that much more than a few other characters.
Why was her name even mentioned in the sorting, and particularly, why was she the only minor character mentioned by name in the movie sorting?
Curious, but absolutely no idea why.
Holly T. - Apr 14, 2006 6:03 am (#9 of 88)
I thought she was sorted in the movie so there could be a bit part for Chris Columbus's daughter.
Soul Search - Apr 14, 2006 6:06 am (#10 of 88)
Edited Apr 14, 2006 7:37 am
Was Susan Bones played by Chris Columbus' daughter? That would explain everything!
Thanks, Holly T.
Finn BV - Apr 16, 2006 4:18 pm (#11 of 88)
Yes, she was played by Eleanor Columbus, and appears in all the classroom scenes, even though at times it contradicts the two-house-per-class rule. But that's the movie. Back to the canon discussions!
Chinese fireball - Apr 19, 2006 12:31 pm (#12 of 88)
Actually I am in an OotP re-read and thought of something. Why are some people solely killed by DEs and why like Edgar Bones and Marlene McKinnon they went after their family as well. Do we assume that they were all killed because the DE's must have went to their homes and other relatives happened to be there, too?
Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 9:40 am (#13 of 88)
I wonder if the Bones are related to Helga Hufflepuff. If so Dorcas Meadowes could have been a Ravenclaw heir and guardian of an heirloom. This would explain why Voldemort killed her and Amelia Bones specifically, because of the founders’ connection. How this fits in with the heir of Gryffindor I don't know but it’s a thought.
Mattew Bates - Apr 20, 2006 9:54 am (#14 of 88)
We already have a Helga Hufflepuff descendant in Hepzibah Smith. Why would JKR need another one? Still, I have also wondered about Dorcas Meadowes... Also, I'm not sure we need an "Heir of Gryffindor" when we have a perfectly serviceable "True Gryffindor" in Harry.
Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 11:56 pm (#15 of 88)
Hepzibah is a descendant where the Horcrux is concerned. I am wondering if the fact that Voldemort saw Amelia and Dorcas as big enough threats to kill them himself could be related to the founders of Hogwarts. What better way to honour his ancestor by wiping out the relatives of the founders. So that Slytherin would be the greatest. With the Horcruxes, Slytherin would live forever through Voldemort.
I know this post isn't well worded but I hope people se what I'm getting at.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 2:31 pm (#16 of 88)
I really like the idea that those Witches and Wizards killed by Big V himself might possibly be descendants of the founders. Great idea!
Solitaire
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 6:10 pm (#17 of 88)
I really like the idea that those Witches and Wizards killed by Big V himself might possibly be descendants of the founders.
Hmmm....wonder to whom the Potters are related?
mike miller - May 5, 2006 3:04 pm (#18 of 88)
I think JKR is giving us a Horcrux hint when she specifies "killed by Voldemort himself". Tom used significant murders to make his earliest Horcruxes, so it follows that he would have kept the same pattern. Remember what Dumbledore said to Harry after watching his first meeting with Tom in the Pensieve, he collects "trophies"...
Can someone more adept at research than me put together a list of those murders (or murderous events) we know for certain were committed by Voldemort himself? Might have a coincidental number here.
The entire family might have been killed to eliminate any witnesses to the Horcrux creation.
Lilly P - May 6, 2006 8:25 pm (#19 of 88)
The entire family might have been killed to eliminate any witnesses to the Horcrux creation - mike miller
I really like that idea mike!!!
(also LOVE the Stevie Ray Vaughn pic!)
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 10:01 am (#20 of 88)
If one can witness (and understand) the creation of a Horcrux, then wouldn't that eliminate the possibility of Voldemort's having created a Horcrux in front of Dumbledore, there in his office? I mean, if anyone else could recognize that a Horcrux was being created, surely Dumbledore could. Wouldn't he have mentioned it?
Solitaire
mike miller - May 7, 2006 12:49 pm (#21 of 88)
Solitaire - I'll look for your response on the Horcrux thread as this thread seems to be straying from the Bones Family.
What's the theory about Voldemort creating a Horcrux right in front of Dumbledore? I can't recall that bit of speculation, but I've been away for a while.
Die Zimtzicke - May 10, 2006 9:08 am (#22 of 88)
I was really disappointed that Susan wasn't in HBP more. I wish Harry had at least shown a little more sympathy to her, as someone who knows what it's like to suffer at Voldemort's hands, and who had known Madam Bones. He just blew it off. After Susan said that one time she knew what it felt like to be Harry, I thought they would become closer friends. It frustrated me that she went back to being a bit player when she had so much potential.
I really thought Madam Bones was going to be MoM, and the idea that she was killed to prevent that makes sense to me.
Soul Search - May 11, 2006 4:09 pm (#23 of 88)
This idea has been nagging for a while, so I am going to present it for comments. I don't, necessarily, like the idea, but ... well let me describe where it came from.
I was looking at some posts on the 'Things which struck you as "odd"' topic related to Umbridge and how she was still at the Ministry and came to Dumbledore's funeral. There didn't seem to be a reason for Umbridge to be mentioned at all.
I had the OotP audio on in the background and "The Hearing" chapter caught my attention. Amelia Bones is introduced as: Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. Sounds like the equivalent of a District Attorney (US.) Anyway, responsible for investigation and prosecution of any acts against wizarding law.
Throughout the hearing, Amelia Bones seems objective and certainly not under Fudge's thumb. She is doing her job, in spite of Fudge's obvious agenda to discredit Harry. She accepted Mrs. Figg's testimony. Dumbledore then suggests that the Dementors had been ordered to Privet Drive and states some rather good logic.
Now ...
Dumbledore then states "I was merely expressing my confidence that this matter will not go uninvestigated." He glances at Madam Bones, who "... readjusted her monocle and stared back at him, frowning slightly."
Did Madam Bones investigate Dementors in Privet Drive. If she did, she no doubt discovered that Umbridge sent them. The whole process was too complicated to leave no clues.
We learn in HBP, "The Other Minister," that Amelia Bones was killed "... and all the evidence was that she put up a real fight." Fudge claims that he knows who did it, meaning Voldemort, but doesn't give any evidence that proves it.
We know that Umbridge is "A nasty piece of work." She sent the Dementors after Harry and was prepared to Crucio him to get Dumbledore's "weapon." She would stop at nothing.
I have it in mind that Umbridge killed Amelia Bones. Madam Bones did investigate the Dementors, evidence led to Umbridge, Bones confronted her, they dueled, Bones lost.
Book seven doesn't really need another plot line, but why was Umbridge even mentioned in HBP.
Bring it on.
Choices - May 11, 2006 4:54 pm (#24 of 88)
Edited May 11, 2006 5:56 pm
That's an interesting idea Soul Search. You may be on to something. I'm not too sure how powerful (magically) a witch Umbridge is or if she could beat Bones in a duel, but another possibility is that she could have arranged to have Bones killed. Umbridge is certainly devious enough.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 7:59 am (#25 of 88)
I like the idea, Soul Search, because I liked Madam Bones and hated Umbridge. The only fly in the ointment is that I believe Mme. Bones was a more capable witch than Umbridge. If Umbridge did do her in, I doubt skill with a wand was the trump card. I would suggest some elaborate trick, ambush, or assistance would have been necessary on Dodo's part. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Soul Search - May 13, 2006 2:51 pm (#26 of 88)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:52 pm
Choices, Solitaire,
I agree that Umbridge wasn't the witch that Madam Bones was given to be. At Hogwarts, she couldn't even handle the twin's fireworks and swamp, with which the Hogwarts staff had no problem.
I think, though, that there is a better scenario that could work into the book seven storyline.
I strongly suspect that Lucius Malfoy, noted death eater, had something to do with the Dementors at Privet Drive. Anyway, he knew Umbridge was responsible.
Voldemort is recruiting. Anyone in the Ministry would be a great find. The Senior Undersecretary would be a major coup.
Given that Madam Bones is researching Dementors at Privet Drive, Umbridge is vulnerable.
So, we have Umbridge running scared, Malfoy goes to her (before the end of OotP) and offers a solution: help Voldemort and we will take care of Madam Bones. So, as soon as it looked like Madam Bones had discovered the truth, a death eater took her out.
Some events support this theory:
Draco Malfoy is one of her "inquisitorial squad."
Umbridge mentions Lucius Malfoy to Snape.
Umbridge seems panicked. She is even willing to perform an unforgivable curse on Harry and admits to sending the Dementors. Did she want the "weapon" for the Ministry ... or for Voldemort?
From the end of OotP, through HBP, the Ministry seemed decidedly ineffective against Voldemort and death eaters. They got nowhere. While I don't hold the Ministry in high regard, there must be some good Aurors. Was Umbridge telling Voldemort of their plans?
This all might fit into book seven better than Umbridge merely killing Madam Bones. Does Harry have another fight on his hands?
Choices - May 13, 2006 5:24 pm (#27 of 88)
I don't exactly think that Umbridge is working for Voldemort, but she sure isn't working against him, is she!!
Finn BV - May 13, 2006 8:58 pm (#28 of 88)
Umbridge isn't evil. She's bad. MuggleNet wrote an excellent support of JKR's editorial on fat models, and they covered the difference between "bad" and "evil." The Dursleys, for example, are not "evil" ó they're simply characters who just aren't on Harry's side. That doesn't mean they're out to get him. Umbridge comes closes to the border of bad and evil, but she's just not a Death Eater. She didn't have any reason to kill Amelia Bones, and if she did, she would have to classify as evil, which she isn't ó sure, she set Dementors on Harry, banned him from Quidditch, ruined the back of his hand, and tried to generally make his life miserable, but she wasn't doing it on Voldemort's orders. I think there is a notable distinction.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 9:34 pm (#29 of 88)
Edited May 13, 2006 10:35 pm
I agree that the Dursleys are bad. I still, however, reserve the right to call Umbridge evil. For all intents and purposes, she attempted to have Harry murdered ... or at least soul-kissed, which might be worse than death. And she was positively bloodthirsty with that evil quill. I don't think she needs to be affiliated with Voldemort to be evil. She does quite well on her own. Her vile deeds were all done to further her own position. As far as I can see, she is not much different from Voldemort. Her scope is just smaller ... but this is the Bones Family thread. I suppose any discussion of Umbridge should move to her thread.
Solitaire
edited
Soul Search - May 14, 2006 7:57 am (#30 of 88)
Umbridge crossed the line between "nasty piece of work" and "evil" when she sent Dementors after Harry. Is there any act more evil than wishing someone's soul to be sucked out? So, killing (or having killed) Madam Bones is just another small step in evil's direction.
Umbridge is evil, but she hasn't been invited to become one of Voldemort’s "inner circle," a death eater. She is just passing MoM information to him, and perhaps helping to thwart the MoM's war against Voldemort.
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 8:57 am (#31 of 88)
Soul Search, I've responded to your post over on Umbridge's thread, as my response had more to do with Umbridge than with Mme. Bones.
Solitaire
Madame Pomfrey - May 15, 2006 6:50 am (#32 of 88)
Soul Search, I am in total agreement with your post #23 as I said some the same things on the DJU thread before I had a chance to read this one. Good catch about Dumbledore looking at Madame Bones and saying he hoped the matter wouldn't go uninvestigated-I missed that one. The only thing I would like to add is the fact that when Fudge was talking about Madame Bones' death to the Prime Minister he was stammering a bit and spinning his bowler hat which he quit doing with an effort. I think he was lying.
Soul Search - May 15, 2006 7:58 am (#33 of 88)
Madame Pomfrey, you also made some other interesting observations in the "Dolores Jane Umbridge" topic.
It appears that Madam Bones was killed by something other than an AK, which is Voldemort's signature killing method. Might mean Voldemort didn't do it.
The room was locked from the inside and, it seems likely, that a Ministry official's house would be protected against Apparating into it.
And, Catherine pointed out that the Dark Mark was not mentioned. Surely, if Voldemort or a DE had killed such a high-ranking Ministry official, they would have wanted to show off with the dark mark.
Solitaire suggests that Nagini or Wormtail (as a rat) may have been able to find a way into the house. This would explain the signs of a struggle.
Fudge spinning his hat is VERY interesting. I missed that and I think there must be some significance. I recall Fudge spinning his hat in CoS when he came to take Hagrid off to Azkaban and in PoA when he was talking about Sirius Black to Harry. In both situations he was, at least, lying by omission.
I don't think Fudge was responsible for Madam Bones' death, but I wonder if he suspects Umbridge of some responsibility. Madam Bones would have advised him of her "Dementors at Privet Drive" investigations. He now might suspect Umbridge of Madam Bones death. Yet, if he mentions it, he would have to accept responsibility for the Dementors since it was done on his watch. Or, Umbridge could get after him.
What a web we weave ... .
Madame Pomfrey - May 15, 2006 1:49 pm (#34 of 88)
Soul Search, I think after seeing your post and the Dark Mark comment made by Catherine, I'm really convinced that neither Voldemort nor his DE killed Madame Bones. Why would Voldemort kill her personally as Fudge suggested? Why her and not the Minister or some other official, unless she was in the Order? We do not know if she is in the Order, we just know that her brother was-he and his whole family killed by DE. What I am getting at is if we knew for certain that she was in the order that would give good cause for her to be killed by DE or Voldemort and Snape would have boasted to Bella about his having a hand in her death such as he did with Emmeline Vance and Sirius in Spinners End. Oh, geez, I think I'm confusing myself.
Miss Black - May 15, 2006 3:56 pm (#35 of 88)
Edited May 15, 2006 4:59 pm
Amelia seems to have been a good person. Lupin assures Harry that she'll give him a fair trial and Fudge claims that she was an extremely gifted witch. I'm wondering if she was in the Order. Or was involved in some anti-Voldy front since he felt it was so important to murder her in person. As far as I know Voldemort would only have murdered her for a reason especially in person. She might also be the infamous RAB though I doubt it. It’s unlikely that someone didn't have a really good reason for killing her.
virginiaelizabeth - May 15, 2006 4:59 pm (#36 of 88)
I don't think that Voldemort killed her himself, because AK is quick, unexpected, and unblockable so if there were signs of a struggle, I don't think it could be AK. I don't think Voldemort would waste his time on a murder by using something other than AK. It doesn't fit his personality.
As for the lack of Dark Mark, that to me is a very small detail that JKR left out, hoping that we wouldn't pick up on it too quickly, but I also think its a red flag. Fudge(i think?) tells us that the DE's got her, yet biggest sign that a DE has murdered, is the Dark Mark, so why wasn't there one above Amelia's house?
Ok just trying to straighten this out in my head, Fudge gets nervous when telling the prime minister about the murder, however, I don't think Fudge has the kinda personality traits to kill, at least not on purpose. He is too much of a scaredy cat, so the only thing I can come up with is that he knows something about it, or at least more than he lets on to or has told to anyone. I'm not so keen to think Umbridge did it though, she's evil yea but would she really kill someone? Then again, she wasn't afraid to send Dementors after Harry and use the Cruciatus curse, so who knows what she's capable of.
This whole murder is just fishy.....
Nathan Zimmermann - May 16, 2006 8:01 am (#37 of 88)
I had a thought about the Dark Mark not being mentioned as being set over the crime scene at the Bones murder.
Perhaps the Dark Mark is only sent up on orders from Voldemort. In other words the Dark Mark is only supposed to be used on Voldemort's order, and is only present at those murders Voldemort commits or those murders that he orders the Death Eaters to carry out.
If the Dark Mark can only be used on orders from Voldemort, and Voldemort did not order or carry out the murder of Amelia Bones himself. As such the presence of the Dark Mark over the scene of Amelia's death would alert Voldemort, that his followers had committed a murder without his approval or knowledge.
Also, the case against Umbridge is stronger because, if she had committed the murder herself or ordered it. It is unlikely she would know the incantation necessary to produce the Dark Mark since it us only known to Death Eaters. (cf GoF chapter nine).
Choices - May 16, 2006 11:18 am (#38 of 88)
Barty Crouch, Jr. sent up the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup and he seemed to have acted strictly on his own in that - not on Voldemort's orders. I think perhaps the lack of the Dark Mark over Madam Bones' house was because Voldemort wanted her dead - perhaps she was slated to become the next MOM or something and he wanted her out of the way to get someone else in that position - but he did not want to be connected to the murder for some reason.
Detail Seeker - May 16, 2006 12:57 pm (#39 of 88)
The fact, that no Dark Mark was mentioned, does not mean, that here was none.
If the she lived in a place far from other wizards, no wizard might have seen it and no Muggle came forward to tell a story for fear of not being believed.
We do not know, how long a Dark Mark remains in the sky. It might have vanished before anybody realized, it was there.
There was talk about Dementors induced fog being around. Was this fog present in the area of her house and did this fog ruin the chances of the Dark mark being seen ?
Explanations, why nobody saw this Dark Mark or mentioned it, are many, so we cannot definitely say, it was or it wasn’t there.
haymoni - May 16, 2006 5:45 pm (#40 of 88)
Maybe Muggles can't see the Dark Mark.
It would be hard to modify so many memories.
Certainly the Death Eaters wouldn't care what a Muggle thought.
Choices - May 16, 2006 6:14 pm (#41 of 88)
The Dark Mark is evidently a big deal and I think it would have been mentioned had it been there.
frogface - May 17, 2006 2:47 am (#42 of 88)
I don't see why it would have been mentioned, why would they tell the Prime Minister about the mark? The basic jist of the conversation is that bad stuff is happening in the Wizarding World and the law states that the Prime Minister needs to be alerted. I'm sure they probably tell him as little as possible though, they probably wouldn't tell him anything if it wasn't part of the law. The Dark Mark may or may not have been there, we just can't be sure. It's an interesting theory though, I'll grant you that.
On the other hand I find it more interesting that they suspect Voldemort did it directly. What motive did he have in killing Amelia Bones, and what evidence suggested that it was him that did it?
Choices - May 17, 2006 11:34 am (#43 of 88)
I think they would inform the Prime Minister about the mark because if Muggles saw it (if indeed they can see it) the Prime Minister would have had to explain and he probably had no clue what it meant. He would need to calm the fears (make up a good cover story) of the public concerning the mark and what it represented.
Pamzter - May 17, 2006 3:39 pm (#44 of 88)
Well in reading the last dozen or so ideas I'm beginning to suspect Scrimgeour (sp?) of Amelia's murder. If she was next in line for MOM then he was the main person to benefit, wouldn't leave the Dark Mark, and Fudge might reasonably be a (nervous) accomplice to it.
rettoP yrraH - May 17, 2006 9:46 pm (#45 of 88)
C...a....n...t... r....e....s...i...s....t
The leg bones are connected to the thighbones the thighbones are connected to the hipbones. ok, that’s out of my system
Muggles can see the dark mark, look in book 4 during the Quidditch world cup. At least I think its there...
frogface - May 18, 2006 3:35 am (#46 of 88)
Its never indicated that any Muggles saw that Dark Mark though. And in fact that brings up an interesting point. Fudge didn't mention the Dark Mark on that occasion to the Prime Minister, so I still don't see why they'd mention it now.
Madame Pomfrey - May 18, 2006 5:52 am (#47 of 88)
Edited May 18, 2006 6:56 am
Soulmate for Sirius brought up something on the DJU thread, the fact that Fudge and Umbridge are still with the Ministry is fishy in the sense that if Madame Bones would have been Minister she probably would have had the whole thing investigated and fired Umbridge(if she wasn't investigating already)and probably not kept Fudge around either. I smell a cover-up and it stinks!
On the Dark Mark... I really don't think Muggles would be able to see it, they don't see nuffink, do they?
Phelim Mcintyre - May 19, 2006 5:08 am (#48 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 6:10 am
Madame Pomfrey, I can here the Muggles now "Oh look Derek, that cloud looks just like a skull. How pretty."
As to Amelia Bones investigating Umbridge, I think that may have started through Amelia being the Minister for Law Enforcement (or whatever her correct title was).
Madame Pomfrey - May 19, 2006 7:20 am (#49 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 8:22 am
LoL Phelim!
Yes, I believe that she would have started the investigation maybe as soon as after Harry's trial, but for sure after the appearance of Voldemort in the MoM.
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 19, 2006 9:40 am (#50 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 10:42 am
Madame Pomfrey, I'm glad you brought up my post on the Umbridge thread, I was just about to do that myself.
I posted over there that I felt there may be more to Amelia's murder then just Umbridge trying to cover up the Dementor incident (assuming you believe Dolores had something to do with this murder) Here were my thoughts...
Scrimgeour told the Prime Minister that he was keeping Fudge on as a sort of liaison between himself and the Prime Minister, and I think it's safe to assume that Umbridge's appearance at DD's funeral is proof she's still working at the Ministry. So, it's clear that Scrimgeour is fine with keeping these two around the MOM despite what happened the previous year. This has got to make Umbridge (if not Fudge as well) very happy.
On the other hand, I really can't see Mme Bones being as forgiving of these two. I doubt she would have kept Fudge on at all, and I feel safe saying that I think she would have most certainly looked into Umbridge's actions at Hogwarts and before and in the end sacked her.
So, what this all comes down to is that I think, that for these reasons, it is entirely plausible that Dolores had some part in Mme Bone's murder. Not because I think she's working with the DE's but because she wanted to save her own reputation and her job within the Ministry. After all, do we have any proof that she's not still Senior Undersecretary to the Minister of Magic? That's got to be a very prestigious position within the Ministry, and I see her as someone who would murder just to keep it. She seems that evil to me!
On the Umbridge thread, I went on to talk about this tactic as very "Slytherin-like" of Dolores, but here, I think it's relevant strictly for the sake of discussing possible scenarios for Amelia's murder...
-Jenn
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Bones Family (posts #51 to #88)
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Madame Pomfrey - May 19, 2006 10:03 am (#51 of 88)
Edited May 19, 2006 11:05 am
As you mentioned Jenn, the fact that Scrimgeour kept them both on at the Ministry really sours my stomach. I still think it more probable that Amelia Bones was killed by someone other than Voldemort. If Voldemort wanted to kill a Ministry official I would think that he would more than likely want to go after the top Auror or Minister of Magic. Why would he go after the Head of Magical Law Enforcement unless, of course, she was in the Order. If she had been in the Order, I think Snape would have boasted to Bella that he had a hand in her murder as well.
Soul Search - May 19, 2006 1:35 pm (#52 of 88)
I just picked up on something that may complicate our Madam Bones/Umbridge discussion. Don't know how I missed this in previous reads.
In HBP, The Other Minister, Fudge to the PM, ... Prime Minister, he threatened a mass Muggle killing unless I stood aside for him and --."/i> Then "Are you saying you would have caved in to blackmail like that?"
It seems that Voldemort wanted the Ministry for Magic job. Bit ludicrous, but there you are.
If Madam Bones was being suggested to replace Fudge, then she may have been targeted by Voldemort.
Mediwitch - May 19, 2006 7:14 pm (#53 of 88)
Nice catch Soul Search! I had completely forgotten that.
Choices - May 20, 2006 8:08 am (#54 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 9:12 am
I did not interpret the "stand aside for him" line to mean that Voldemort wanted the MOM job, but that he wanted Fudge to more or less turn a blind eye, to step out of the way, and allow Voldemort free rein to do whatever he wanted - not to interfere in his campaign for power in the Wizarding World.
Soul Search - May 20, 2006 11:31 am (#55 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:32 pm
Choices, I like your interpretation better than the MoM job. Makes much more sense. Would also say the Aurors are having some positive effect.
Also means Madam Bones/Umbridge is back on the table.
#VALUE!
Could she have been protecting Madam Bones, or even the PM?
Nathan Zimmermann - May 20, 2006 12:49 pm (#56 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 1:55 pm
I doubt Amelia would permit herself to be protected. She seems to me to be a strong willed individual who values her independence and will not be forced to do anything against her will. This is ably demonstrated I think during Harry's hearing that she presides over in OotP. During the course of the hearing she successfully maintains her independence from the two opposing camps of Dumbledore's supporters and Fudge's cadre.
In light of that I think it more likely that Emmeline Vance may have been part of a group guarding the Prime Minister.
Madame Pomfrey - May 20, 2006 6:23 pm (#57 of 88)
I interpreted "stand aside for him" the same as Choices. Tom Riddle was never interested in the Ministry and I can't see Voldemort wanting to put himself in the spotlight due to the fact that he has murdered so many and there are probably a lot of people who would want revenge.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 12, 2006 7:31 am (#58 of 88)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 8:38 am
I just wanted to add to the theory that Madame Bones was killed by someone within the Ministry with the following.
Harry says "Professor, why couldn't we just Apparate directly into your old colleague's house?" "Because it would be quite as rude as kicking down the front door," said Dumbledore. "Courtesy dictates that we offer fellow wizards the opportunity of denying us entry. In any case, most Wizarding dwellings are magically protected from unwanted Apparators. At Hogwarts for instance----"
then later Slughorn says "....I cannot pretend that Amelia Bones death did not shake me....If she, with all her Ministry contacts and protection..."
This tells us that most wizarding dwellings have magical protection from unwanted Apparators and Ministry officials have their own protection. Even Slughorn had an intruder alarm allowing him 3 min. to act. Enough time to Apparate out of there I would think. Fudge believes Madame Bones was killed by Voldemort personally. How would he get in? Even under Polyjuice, wouldn't department heads take their own advice and ask security questions before allowing them access into their homes? This among other things leads me to believe that Amelia Bones was killed by someone she knew, someone who answered the security question correctly. She allowed this person to Apparate into her home. I would think it is someone who has been there before, someone she trusted. Thoughts?
Vulture - Oct 12, 2006 7:47 pm (#59 of 88)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 8:48 pm
I interpreted "stand aside for him" the same as Choices. Tom Riddle was never interested in the Ministry and I can't see Voldemort wanting to put himself in the spotlight due to the fact that he has murdered so many and there are probably alto of people who would want revenge. (Madame Pomfrey - May 20, 2006 7:23 pm (#57))
Well, "stand aside for him", in my view, means 'hand over power to him'. I accept that Voldemort isn't interested in becoming Minister, but he is very interested in becoming ruler of the wizard world. In other words, he threatened a mass Muggle killing unless the Ministry effectively abolished itself and left him in charge.
I don't think Umbridge killed Madam Bones because I think Umbridge is the kind of cowardly evil leech who will definitely survive, do well, and die in her bed _ no matter who wins. She sent Dementors after Harry because he was, at the time, an easy target. Killing Amelia Bones would be a hell of a risk. Umbridge isn't into risks. I think that's why Sirius is so sure that she's not a Death Eater _ he knows her type.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 3:29 am (#60 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 4:34 am
Vulture, I agree. Voldemort wanted Fudge to turn a blind eye. Dumbledore basically said the same thing at the end of GoF. "Fail to act--and history will remember you as the man who stepped aside and allowed Voldemort a second chance to destroy the world we have tried hard to rebuild!"
Had Madame Bones taken Dumbledore's advise and investigated the reason why 2 Dementors were in Little Whinging and found out Umbridge ordered them, I could see Madame Bones inviting Umbridge to her house to confront her. I can see Umbridge, in her excitement, losing her head like she did when she was shaking Marietta and when she was going to Crucio Harry. No, I don't think Umbridge would go quietly. It was described as a nasty death in which Madame Bones put up quite a fight. If it had been Voldemort or a DE,I think there would have been no to chance to fight, he would have simply AK’d her. Someone Apparated into her home after the security questions were asked, someone Madame Bones knew, someone that knew the answer to her security question.
Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:02 am (#61 of 88)
I agree with Vulture. It would be way out of character for Umbridge to try to kill someone as high profile as Madam Bones. Umbridge is a bully, and bullies never bully anyone powerful. If she did it, it was a crime of opportunity, and I still think even that is unlikely, because Umbridge had to have been considering how to stay in the middle, so she'd be okay no matter which side won. She just seems the type to blow with the wind.
wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2006 5:08 am (#62 of 88)
Madame Pomfrey, what you're saying makes sense. It would almost certainly be someone that Bones knew and had admitted into her home.
That means there's someone out there who is probably unknown to others, an LV supporter.
Is this an important enough event that JKR will explain it to us? I think so. But whether or not it's important to the whole plot is another question.
Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 13, 2006 5:24 am (#63 of 88)
An as yet unknown high-ranking Ministry Official who is a Death Eater? Or is Voldemort powerful enough to get past Ministry protections that both Harry and Dumbledore see as inadequate?
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 11:49 am (#64 of 88)
Wynnleaf, I don't know if it's important to the plot, but I feel there will be a lot of surprises in book 7 regarding who is working for whom. I cannot imagine Dumbledore knowing that Umbridge sent the Dementors and not having it investigated (yes, I think he knows). Therefore, Umbridge has the best motive for killing Amelia Bones. Besides, my conscience will not let me believe that Umbridge is none other than a nasty piece of work just because Sirius says so. I can't seem to help it... she is a DE until proven otherwise in my book. The quill is plain evil. Sending DE to suck the soul out of a 15 year old is attempted murder. She attempted to use Crucio which is the punishment of choice for dark wizards(notice how excited she got.) Hatred of half-breeds is another DE quality, plus she doesn't flinch when hearing Voldemorts name. I know this is not sufficient evidence to her being a DE, but she makes Bella look like a saint.
Phelim, I would imagine that Voldemort could gain access, but it doesn't sound like his work. No AK and a Dark Mark wasn't mentioned as it was with the Headmaster of Durmstrang. I noticed that a Dark Mark wasn't mentioned with Emmeline Vance's murder either. Perhaps she was sent by Dumbledore to watch Madame Bones’ back.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 12:54 pm (#65 of 88)
I can't see Amelia Bones being silly enough to invite someone she thinks capable of doing something like loosing Dementors on someone into her home to confront them. If she wanted to confront Umbridge, I'm sure she'd have done it with at least an Auror or two with her, in the Ministry or at Umbridge's home, and have made arrangements to have her detained somewhere.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 4:30 pm (#66 of 88)
Well, Yes.. But who’s to say that no one was with her. Fudge was certainly spinning his hat to a blur and had to force himself to stop when telling the Muggle Prime Minister about her death.
Thom Matheson - Oct 13, 2006 5:13 pm (#67 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:13 pm
This could be the spot for me to bring up a thought that I have had floating around for a while now. The one that could get into the house easily would be Scrimgeour. I have thought for a while that he could be turned by Voldemort. Don't have any real back-story for this other then a feeling that he is a bit more on the dark side of the day. I don't know, just a bad feeling.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 6:02 pm (#68 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 7:04 pm
He could be a suspect as well. I just don't thing Voldemort or his DEs did it. What is your suspicion of Scrimgeour based on, Thom?
Xray posted the same thoughts on the Scrimgeour thread.
Thom Matheson - Oct 14, 2006 6:33 am (#69 of 88)
None that I can finger really. Just his air from the time he interacts with the PM in Ch1, his imprisonment of Stan. His insistence on getting close to Harry, I think, is meant to get closer to Dumbledore. Harry isn't his target here. As I said, it is just a feel. His actions seem to tie in to Malfoy’s and perhaps are a way to throw off. Just as Kingsley was scamming the whereabouts of Sirius. As I said nothing concrete. I'm still working on it.
Muggle Doctor - Nov 3, 2006 7:01 am (#70 of 88)
I'm more than happy to believe that Amelia Bones was killed to keep her out of the Minister of Magic's job. I also believe that Voldemort or one of his top people did it.
Who? Bellatrix? She's certainly vicious and dangerous enough, and anyone who takes her on has to be really good (this says a great deal about Harry, who was giving as good as he got until Voldemort arrived, and would have nailed her if he'd yelled stupefy instead of Crucio).
Snape, if he's really working for Voldemort? Very possible - the other Death Eaters tend to screw things up, whereas we know that, however despicable he is as a human being, Snape is a very, very competent wizard. And him being in Dumbledore's good books (being vouched for him personally, in fact) would certainly keep Amelia's guard down until the final conflict. And IMHO a strong witch starting even from a position of disadvantage could certainly put up 'a hell of a fight' rather than just being a walkover.
I am certainly disappointed in the lack of Harry/Susan interplay. They know each other. She's DA and comes to his rescue on the train, and remembers her aunt's comments about his trial, and she's shown some sympathy and understanding for his plight; it would have been nice to see it reciprocated.
I know JKR had to get the whole Harry/Ginny thing happening (I think that's going to be important in book 7, even if he's made himself 'not see her any more') as a buildup before the sudden revelation. However I thought perhaps that his 'little bit of love' might have been something else before The Big Ship; a chance to fall for someone who perhaps had some common emotional history (as detailed above), but didn't have any of the nasty, angsty guilt that came from Harry's (successful!) rival for his 'object of desire' being killed as a consequence of being in the same time and place as Harry. Susan seemed to fit the bill very well, but all she ended up as (in the Apparition classes) was as a fall-girl, another Hannah Abbott to stuff up her lessons (in Susan's case by being splinched) and go to bits in the process.
Sad.
(Go to bits - splinched... god-awful pun, but I swear I didn't mean it. Having seen it, though, I can't bear to take it out!)
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 7:28 am (#71 of 88)
Wasn't it in chapter 1 where the feeling was that Voldemort did the Bones killing himself?
Madame Pomfrey - Nov 3, 2006 1:48 pm (#72 of 88)
According to Fudge, but it doesn't look like Voldemort to me.
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 2:14 pm (#73 of 88)
I know what you mean. After all when you are a capable hunter( any DE will do), other then someone familiar going to her door, anyone capable of pulling the trigger could be a suspect. Heaven knows we can't trust "feelings" by Fudge.
There is that nagging thought of mine again. Knock on the door, "Amelia, it's me Rufus, now that I am the Minister, I thought we should talk". "Avada Kedavra", locks the door Apparates, and vanishes. The question is why. Well, he needs to eliminate her as a threat to him in the Ministry. He was Confunded. Could or would she expose the Stan Shunpike thing to the world.
I know that I am swimming in pea soup here but I do not like or trust Rufus. I get the feeling he is right up there with Umbridge when it comes to political ambitions and what they would stoop to. I truly hope that we find out more in #7.
Solitaire - Nov 3, 2006 5:06 pm (#74 of 88)
I don't like or trust him either, Thom. He is too eager for public approval. I'm just not sure that he is murderous. That seems more like Umbridge's department, to me.
Solitaire
haymoni - Nov 3, 2006 5:10 pm (#75 of 88)
I'm trying to imagine Rufus as head of the Auror department.
He's been sent on a wild goose chase to capture Sirius, who turns out to be a good guy after all.
You know Fudge was telling him that Dumbledore had some wild notion that Voldy was back, but I'm guessing that Rufus had enough sense to consider the facts.
He has to think that most of his career was wasted heading up the Auror department, so he has to make a big splash as Minister and fast.
I don't know that he is in the same category as Umbridge, but he has a "thirst to prove himself".
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 6:51 pm (#76 of 88)
As far as I am concerned he and Umbridge are the next big "ship".
Solitaire - Nov 3, 2006 7:26 pm (#77 of 88)
LOL Tom! The Lion and the Toad. hehe
Madame Pomfrey - Nov 4, 2006 10:54 am (#78 of 88)
LOL. I was picturing the toad as Voldemorts bride. I still don't trust her no matter what Sirius says. As for Amelia Bones, I definitely think someone on the inside killed her. Both Umbridge and Scrimgeour have motive.
S.E. Jones - Nov 4, 2006 11:04 am (#79 of 88)
I still don't see what Scrimgeour's motive would've been. Wouldn't Amelia Bones have backed his appointment to office? She was Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, which would've included the Aurors' office. So, if she didn't like Scrimgeour, would he have been head of that office? Wouldn't they have had to work closely together? I'd think she'd be one of his big supporters, unless I've just missed something, which is entirely possible.
Thom Matheson - Nov 4, 2006 6:20 pm (#80 of 88)
Unless Amelia was his chief rival for the Minister job. It wouldn't be the first time some strange thing pops up just as one is about to be tapped for the job.
haymoni - Nov 7, 2006 6:07 am (#81 of 88)
Solitaire - "The Lion & the Toad" sounds like a great chapter title!
Die Zimtzicke - Nov 7, 2006 10:45 am (#82 of 88)
Nah...I think most people would think of Trevor first, not Umbridge!
haymoni - Nov 8, 2006 6:44 am (#83 of 88)
I'd settle for that too!
There's something up with that toad!
Solitaire - Nov 10, 2006 7:46 pm (#84 of 88)
Isn't the Basilisk created by some weird combination of a toad hatching a chicken egg (or something of that nature)? Is there any magical monster that is created by crossing a toad with a lion? Just wondering ...
Thom Matheson - Nov 11, 2006 5:19 am (#85 of 88)
Yeah, you get Rufus Umbridge off spring. Can you hear the ribbit-roar?
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 11, 2006 6:18 am (#86 of 88)
Hmm, Lion plus Toad would get you a Load of-- er, never mind!
Mediwitch - Nov 11, 2006 11:47 am (#87 of 88)
Oh good one, Mrs. Brisbee!
TheSaint - Sep 23, 2006 7:00 am (#88 of 88)
Don't snakes eat toads?
Edited May 19, 2006 11:05 am
As you mentioned Jenn, the fact that Scrimgeour kept them both on at the Ministry really sours my stomach. I still think it more probable that Amelia Bones was killed by someone other than Voldemort. If Voldemort wanted to kill a Ministry official I would think that he would more than likely want to go after the top Auror or Minister of Magic. Why would he go after the Head of Magical Law Enforcement unless, of course, she was in the Order. If she had been in the Order, I think Snape would have boasted to Bella that he had a hand in her murder as well.
Soul Search - May 19, 2006 1:35 pm (#52 of 88)
I just picked up on something that may complicate our Madam Bones/Umbridge discussion. Don't know how I missed this in previous reads.
In HBP, The Other Minister, Fudge to the PM, ... Prime Minister, he threatened a mass Muggle killing unless I stood aside for him and --."/i> Then "Are you saying you would have caved in to blackmail like that?"
It seems that Voldemort wanted the Ministry for Magic job. Bit ludicrous, but there you are.
If Madam Bones was being suggested to replace Fudge, then she may have been targeted by Voldemort.
Mediwitch - May 19, 2006 7:14 pm (#53 of 88)
Nice catch Soul Search! I had completely forgotten that.
Choices - May 20, 2006 8:08 am (#54 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 9:12 am
I did not interpret the "stand aside for him" line to mean that Voldemort wanted the MOM job, but that he wanted Fudge to more or less turn a blind eye, to step out of the way, and allow Voldemort free rein to do whatever he wanted - not to interfere in his campaign for power in the Wizarding World.
Soul Search - May 20, 2006 11:31 am (#55 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:32 pm
Choices, I like your interpretation better than the MoM job. Makes much more sense. Would also say the Aurors are having some positive effect.
Also means Madam Bones/Umbridge is back on the table.
#VALUE!
Could she have been protecting Madam Bones, or even the PM?
Nathan Zimmermann - May 20, 2006 12:49 pm (#56 of 88)
Edited May 20, 2006 1:55 pm
I doubt Amelia would permit herself to be protected. She seems to me to be a strong willed individual who values her independence and will not be forced to do anything against her will. This is ably demonstrated I think during Harry's hearing that she presides over in OotP. During the course of the hearing she successfully maintains her independence from the two opposing camps of Dumbledore's supporters and Fudge's cadre.
In light of that I think it more likely that Emmeline Vance may have been part of a group guarding the Prime Minister.
Madame Pomfrey - May 20, 2006 6:23 pm (#57 of 88)
I interpreted "stand aside for him" the same as Choices. Tom Riddle was never interested in the Ministry and I can't see Voldemort wanting to put himself in the spotlight due to the fact that he has murdered so many and there are probably a lot of people who would want revenge.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 12, 2006 7:31 am (#58 of 88)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 8:38 am
I just wanted to add to the theory that Madame Bones was killed by someone within the Ministry with the following.
Harry says "Professor, why couldn't we just Apparate directly into your old colleague's house?" "Because it would be quite as rude as kicking down the front door," said Dumbledore. "Courtesy dictates that we offer fellow wizards the opportunity of denying us entry. In any case, most Wizarding dwellings are magically protected from unwanted Apparators. At Hogwarts for instance----"
then later Slughorn says "....I cannot pretend that Amelia Bones death did not shake me....If she, with all her Ministry contacts and protection..."
This tells us that most wizarding dwellings have magical protection from unwanted Apparators and Ministry officials have their own protection. Even Slughorn had an intruder alarm allowing him 3 min. to act. Enough time to Apparate out of there I would think. Fudge believes Madame Bones was killed by Voldemort personally. How would he get in? Even under Polyjuice, wouldn't department heads take their own advice and ask security questions before allowing them access into their homes? This among other things leads me to believe that Amelia Bones was killed by someone she knew, someone who answered the security question correctly. She allowed this person to Apparate into her home. I would think it is someone who has been there before, someone she trusted. Thoughts?
Vulture - Oct 12, 2006 7:47 pm (#59 of 88)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 8:48 pm
I interpreted "stand aside for him" the same as Choices. Tom Riddle was never interested in the Ministry and I can't see Voldemort wanting to put himself in the spotlight due to the fact that he has murdered so many and there are probably alto of people who would want revenge. (Madame Pomfrey - May 20, 2006 7:23 pm (#57))
Well, "stand aside for him", in my view, means 'hand over power to him'. I accept that Voldemort isn't interested in becoming Minister, but he is very interested in becoming ruler of the wizard world. In other words, he threatened a mass Muggle killing unless the Ministry effectively abolished itself and left him in charge.
I don't think Umbridge killed Madam Bones because I think Umbridge is the kind of cowardly evil leech who will definitely survive, do well, and die in her bed _ no matter who wins. She sent Dementors after Harry because he was, at the time, an easy target. Killing Amelia Bones would be a hell of a risk. Umbridge isn't into risks. I think that's why Sirius is so sure that she's not a Death Eater _ he knows her type.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 3:29 am (#60 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 4:34 am
Vulture, I agree. Voldemort wanted Fudge to turn a blind eye. Dumbledore basically said the same thing at the end of GoF. "Fail to act--and history will remember you as the man who stepped aside and allowed Voldemort a second chance to destroy the world we have tried hard to rebuild!"
Had Madame Bones taken Dumbledore's advise and investigated the reason why 2 Dementors were in Little Whinging and found out Umbridge ordered them, I could see Madame Bones inviting Umbridge to her house to confront her. I can see Umbridge, in her excitement, losing her head like she did when she was shaking Marietta and when she was going to Crucio Harry. No, I don't think Umbridge would go quietly. It was described as a nasty death in which Madame Bones put up quite a fight. If it had been Voldemort or a DE,I think there would have been no to chance to fight, he would have simply AK’d her. Someone Apparated into her home after the security questions were asked, someone Madame Bones knew, someone that knew the answer to her security question.
Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:02 am (#61 of 88)
I agree with Vulture. It would be way out of character for Umbridge to try to kill someone as high profile as Madam Bones. Umbridge is a bully, and bullies never bully anyone powerful. If she did it, it was a crime of opportunity, and I still think even that is unlikely, because Umbridge had to have been considering how to stay in the middle, so she'd be okay no matter which side won. She just seems the type to blow with the wind.
wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2006 5:08 am (#62 of 88)
Madame Pomfrey, what you're saying makes sense. It would almost certainly be someone that Bones knew and had admitted into her home.
That means there's someone out there who is probably unknown to others, an LV supporter.
Is this an important enough event that JKR will explain it to us? I think so. But whether or not it's important to the whole plot is another question.
Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 13, 2006 5:24 am (#63 of 88)
An as yet unknown high-ranking Ministry Official who is a Death Eater? Or is Voldemort powerful enough to get past Ministry protections that both Harry and Dumbledore see as inadequate?
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 11:49 am (#64 of 88)
Wynnleaf, I don't know if it's important to the plot, but I feel there will be a lot of surprises in book 7 regarding who is working for whom. I cannot imagine Dumbledore knowing that Umbridge sent the Dementors and not having it investigated (yes, I think he knows). Therefore, Umbridge has the best motive for killing Amelia Bones. Besides, my conscience will not let me believe that Umbridge is none other than a nasty piece of work just because Sirius says so. I can't seem to help it... she is a DE until proven otherwise in my book. The quill is plain evil. Sending DE to suck the soul out of a 15 year old is attempted murder. She attempted to use Crucio which is the punishment of choice for dark wizards(notice how excited she got.) Hatred of half-breeds is another DE quality, plus she doesn't flinch when hearing Voldemorts name. I know this is not sufficient evidence to her being a DE, but she makes Bella look like a saint.
Phelim, I would imagine that Voldemort could gain access, but it doesn't sound like his work. No AK and a Dark Mark wasn't mentioned as it was with the Headmaster of Durmstrang. I noticed that a Dark Mark wasn't mentioned with Emmeline Vance's murder either. Perhaps she was sent by Dumbledore to watch Madame Bones’ back.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 12:54 pm (#65 of 88)
I can't see Amelia Bones being silly enough to invite someone she thinks capable of doing something like loosing Dementors on someone into her home to confront them. If she wanted to confront Umbridge, I'm sure she'd have done it with at least an Auror or two with her, in the Ministry or at Umbridge's home, and have made arrangements to have her detained somewhere.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 4:30 pm (#66 of 88)
Well, Yes.. But who’s to say that no one was with her. Fudge was certainly spinning his hat to a blur and had to force himself to stop when telling the Muggle Prime Minister about her death.
Thom Matheson - Oct 13, 2006 5:13 pm (#67 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:13 pm
This could be the spot for me to bring up a thought that I have had floating around for a while now. The one that could get into the house easily would be Scrimgeour. I have thought for a while that he could be turned by Voldemort. Don't have any real back-story for this other then a feeling that he is a bit more on the dark side of the day. I don't know, just a bad feeling.
Madame Pomfrey - Oct 13, 2006 6:02 pm (#68 of 88)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 7:04 pm
He could be a suspect as well. I just don't thing Voldemort or his DEs did it. What is your suspicion of Scrimgeour based on, Thom?
Xray posted the same thoughts on the Scrimgeour thread.
Thom Matheson - Oct 14, 2006 6:33 am (#69 of 88)
None that I can finger really. Just his air from the time he interacts with the PM in Ch1, his imprisonment of Stan. His insistence on getting close to Harry, I think, is meant to get closer to Dumbledore. Harry isn't his target here. As I said, it is just a feel. His actions seem to tie in to Malfoy’s and perhaps are a way to throw off. Just as Kingsley was scamming the whereabouts of Sirius. As I said nothing concrete. I'm still working on it.
Muggle Doctor - Nov 3, 2006 7:01 am (#70 of 88)
I'm more than happy to believe that Amelia Bones was killed to keep her out of the Minister of Magic's job. I also believe that Voldemort or one of his top people did it.
Who? Bellatrix? She's certainly vicious and dangerous enough, and anyone who takes her on has to be really good (this says a great deal about Harry, who was giving as good as he got until Voldemort arrived, and would have nailed her if he'd yelled stupefy instead of Crucio).
Snape, if he's really working for Voldemort? Very possible - the other Death Eaters tend to screw things up, whereas we know that, however despicable he is as a human being, Snape is a very, very competent wizard. And him being in Dumbledore's good books (being vouched for him personally, in fact) would certainly keep Amelia's guard down until the final conflict. And IMHO a strong witch starting even from a position of disadvantage could certainly put up 'a hell of a fight' rather than just being a walkover.
I am certainly disappointed in the lack of Harry/Susan interplay. They know each other. She's DA and comes to his rescue on the train, and remembers her aunt's comments about his trial, and she's shown some sympathy and understanding for his plight; it would have been nice to see it reciprocated.
I know JKR had to get the whole Harry/Ginny thing happening (I think that's going to be important in book 7, even if he's made himself 'not see her any more') as a buildup before the sudden revelation. However I thought perhaps that his 'little bit of love' might have been something else before The Big Ship; a chance to fall for someone who perhaps had some common emotional history (as detailed above), but didn't have any of the nasty, angsty guilt that came from Harry's (successful!) rival for his 'object of desire' being killed as a consequence of being in the same time and place as Harry. Susan seemed to fit the bill very well, but all she ended up as (in the Apparition classes) was as a fall-girl, another Hannah Abbott to stuff up her lessons (in Susan's case by being splinched) and go to bits in the process.
Sad.
(Go to bits - splinched... god-awful pun, but I swear I didn't mean it. Having seen it, though, I can't bear to take it out!)
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 7:28 am (#71 of 88)
Wasn't it in chapter 1 where the feeling was that Voldemort did the Bones killing himself?
Madame Pomfrey - Nov 3, 2006 1:48 pm (#72 of 88)
According to Fudge, but it doesn't look like Voldemort to me.
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 2:14 pm (#73 of 88)
I know what you mean. After all when you are a capable hunter( any DE will do), other then someone familiar going to her door, anyone capable of pulling the trigger could be a suspect. Heaven knows we can't trust "feelings" by Fudge.
There is that nagging thought of mine again. Knock on the door, "Amelia, it's me Rufus, now that I am the Minister, I thought we should talk". "Avada Kedavra", locks the door Apparates, and vanishes. The question is why. Well, he needs to eliminate her as a threat to him in the Ministry. He was Confunded. Could or would she expose the Stan Shunpike thing to the world.
I know that I am swimming in pea soup here but I do not like or trust Rufus. I get the feeling he is right up there with Umbridge when it comes to political ambitions and what they would stoop to. I truly hope that we find out more in #7.
Solitaire - Nov 3, 2006 5:06 pm (#74 of 88)
I don't like or trust him either, Thom. He is too eager for public approval. I'm just not sure that he is murderous. That seems more like Umbridge's department, to me.
Solitaire
haymoni - Nov 3, 2006 5:10 pm (#75 of 88)
I'm trying to imagine Rufus as head of the Auror department.
He's been sent on a wild goose chase to capture Sirius, who turns out to be a good guy after all.
You know Fudge was telling him that Dumbledore had some wild notion that Voldy was back, but I'm guessing that Rufus had enough sense to consider the facts.
He has to think that most of his career was wasted heading up the Auror department, so he has to make a big splash as Minister and fast.
I don't know that he is in the same category as Umbridge, but he has a "thirst to prove himself".
Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 6:51 pm (#76 of 88)
As far as I am concerned he and Umbridge are the next big "ship".
Solitaire - Nov 3, 2006 7:26 pm (#77 of 88)
LOL Tom! The Lion and the Toad. hehe
Madame Pomfrey - Nov 4, 2006 10:54 am (#78 of 88)
LOL. I was picturing the toad as Voldemorts bride. I still don't trust her no matter what Sirius says. As for Amelia Bones, I definitely think someone on the inside killed her. Both Umbridge and Scrimgeour have motive.
S.E. Jones - Nov 4, 2006 11:04 am (#79 of 88)
I still don't see what Scrimgeour's motive would've been. Wouldn't Amelia Bones have backed his appointment to office? She was Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, which would've included the Aurors' office. So, if she didn't like Scrimgeour, would he have been head of that office? Wouldn't they have had to work closely together? I'd think she'd be one of his big supporters, unless I've just missed something, which is entirely possible.
Thom Matheson - Nov 4, 2006 6:20 pm (#80 of 88)
Unless Amelia was his chief rival for the Minister job. It wouldn't be the first time some strange thing pops up just as one is about to be tapped for the job.
haymoni - Nov 7, 2006 6:07 am (#81 of 88)
Solitaire - "The Lion & the Toad" sounds like a great chapter title!
Die Zimtzicke - Nov 7, 2006 10:45 am (#82 of 88)
Nah...I think most people would think of Trevor first, not Umbridge!
haymoni - Nov 8, 2006 6:44 am (#83 of 88)
I'd settle for that too!
There's something up with that toad!
Solitaire - Nov 10, 2006 7:46 pm (#84 of 88)
Isn't the Basilisk created by some weird combination of a toad hatching a chicken egg (or something of that nature)? Is there any magical monster that is created by crossing a toad with a lion? Just wondering ...
Thom Matheson - Nov 11, 2006 5:19 am (#85 of 88)
Yeah, you get Rufus Umbridge off spring. Can you hear the ribbit-roar?
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 11, 2006 6:18 am (#86 of 88)
Hmm, Lion plus Toad would get you a Load of-- er, never mind!
Mediwitch - Nov 11, 2006 11:47 am (#87 of 88)
Oh good one, Mrs. Brisbee!
TheSaint - Sep 23, 2006 7:00 am (#88 of 88)
Don't snakes eat toads?
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