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The Black Family Tree and Tapestry
Finn BV - Jan 28, 2006 12:05 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 4, 2006 2:04 am
Today, the Daily Telegraph released a partial picture of an item of Jo's to be auctioned off for Book Aid International – The Black Family Tapestry, as drawn by her. While it is not the entire image, what we can see are many names we've seen in other contexts.
For example, Phineas Nigellus was married to Ursula Flint, who is probably related to Marcus Flint, the Slytherin who had to repeat a year. A Violetta Bulstrode was married to somebody, and she had a child, Dorea, who married Charlus Potter. The two had one son. Dorea died in 1977, which was when James was starting his seventh year or ending his sixth. Charlus' dates are not given.
There's a Herbert Burke (think Borgin and Burke's), an Arcturus Black, who has a given name rumored to be Regulus Black's middle name, a Harfang Longbottom, and a Caspar Crouch, among others. Click on the link above to access it.
So, a great number of families' ancestry is starting to form. Thoughts?
I changed the link above to the edited version on TLC. I also suggest that you apply as much actual data from the drawing as you can on a post within this thread in case the link to TLC is changed. Once on the Forum I can move whatever is produced to this original post which created this thread. - Kip 29 Jan 06
I changed the link to the image to the one that is a part of our Harry Potter Lexicon. - Kip 4 Feb 06
Last edited by John Bumbledore on Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
dizzy lizzy - Jan 28, 2006 12:18 pm (#1 of 333)
I am pleased for the way Jo has managed to give up a piece of "hopefully canon" Potterverse history, just to benefit those who have not had the same chances as us lexionconers to enjoy literacy and the wonderful world of books. Now all we need is an image of the family tree in full.
I know the article said the theme was "between the lines", and golly gee gosh we really have to read beween the lines to make sense of this family tree!
The potential storylines, answers and questions this family tree throws up... **oh help! my brain has gone into meltdown thinking about it**
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2006 12:34 pm (#2 of 333)
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 28, 2006 1:12 pm
First, the scans of the Black Family tree included some names with mythological connotations For example, near the bottom of the chart one can make the beginnings of the name Deucalion.
In Greek mythology, Deucalion was the son of Prometheus and Clymene who along with his wife were among the few survivors of the flood that Zeus commanded to destroy the Bronze Age men as a consequence of the actions of Lyacon, King of Arcadia.
The name Charis also comes from Greek myths, Charis was the name of one of the Graces who married Hephaestus the Greek son of Zeus.
Second, I tend to think that the dark circular marks are meant to represent the burn marks seen on the Tapestry of the members who are burnt off we know of three namely Alphard, Sirius, and Andromeda.
Third, The Black family has connections to two other families that produced Death Eaters namely the Crouches and the Yaxleys.
Finn, when I cliked on the link you provided it took me to the second page of the article itself and not the image of Tapestry.
Nathan, I changed the link in Finn's original post to the edited version on TLC. - Kip
haymoni - Jan 28, 2006 1:19 pm (#3 of 333)
I wonder if Harfang Longbottom is Augusta Longbottom's brother-in-law???
i.e. her husband's brother and Neville's great uncle.
Edit: I just hope whoever wins the auction is kind enough to let the rest of us see the whole thing!
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2006 2:50 pm (#4 of 333)
If Charlus Potter and Dorea are in fact James Potter's parents. This raises a question the tree lists Dorea's being born in 1920 and dying in 1977, which, means she would be at most 57 years old at the time of her death. How can this be reconciled with the statement made by J,.K. Rowling to Melissa and Emerson during the TLC Mugglenet interview?
MA: What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?
JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.
Fifty-seven years old does not seem very old, especially, with a witch like Minerva McGonagall still being hale and hearty at seventy.
Also, does know the meanings, and etymologies of the given names on the Tapestry?
Ginerva Potter - Jan 28, 2006 3:23 pm (#5 of 333)
I think it has to be James' parents, but I think we need to take it at face value. When she did the interview, maybe she didn't have dates in the family tree for Dorea. Or maybe she just isn't good at maths as she would say. Since how old they are or how they died isn't important to the plot, I feel like what she was saying in the interview is she just needed them out of the way.
I'm sooooo excited about the tree. I'm with you, Nathan, I think that those are burn marks. I think that the one at the top is the Weasley ancestor. I hope we get to see the whole thing, too. It's supposed to be on display on Feb. 20th. Maybe we will get to see it then...
zelmia - Jan 28, 2006 5:14 pm (#6 of 333)
Okay, but if the Potters on the Black family tree are related to Harry, don't you think she would have written something about it? That Harry notices it, for instance?
Given that she wrote specifically that Sirius says, "all pure-bloods are inter-related" it seems that she would have included something about Harry noticing the name "Potter" on the tree as well. For example: "Just then, Harry saw it. About a third of the way down the tapestry. Charlus Potter, married Dorea...." But she doesn't. Instead she has Harry notice the Malfoys.
Finn BV - Jan 28, 2006 5:22 pm (#7 of 333)
Perhaps Harry didn't see the Potters, though. Just a thought.
Charlus Potter's dates are not given. Suppose he could have been much older, and just married young Dorea. She was of the ancient and most noble house of Black, after all.
Gina R Snape - Jan 28, 2006 5:56 pm (#8 of 333)
Harry was ushered away from the tapestry by Sirius. He really did not see the whole thing. But I wonder if he'll go back to 12GP and take a closer look at it now.
zelmia - Jan 28, 2006 7:57 pm (#9 of 333)
The point is that the author had the opportunity to give us that information - if indeed she intended for it to exist as such - but she didn't. She has Harry notice the Malfoys. In fact, apart from the Leaky Cauldron news item, we wouldn't have even known that there were any Potters on the tapestry. That seems a pretty clear indication that whatever "Potter" was there is irrelevant to the saga.
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2006 8:00 pm (#10 of 333)
If Phineas Nigellus was born in 1847 and died in 1926 as stated in tapestry picture then he would have started at Hogwarts around the time Albus Dumbledore left in the late 1850's. Also that would narrow the time frame for his headmastership at Hogwarts to late nineetenth and early twentieth centuries.
Zelmia, it is true that Potter on the tree is not central to the saga but, in 2005 J.K. Rowling has said the Harry's grandparents were not particularly important to the story. So it is possible that she would release the information since, it is not a vital piece of information.
Mediwitch - Jan 28, 2006 9:01 pm (#11 of 333)
Harry is not well-known for being observant, Zelmia. I would not be surprised in the least to find out that the Potter on the family tree is indeed an ancestor and Harry completely missed it. It was, after all, "a sprawling family tree dating back (as far as Harry could tell) to the Middle Ages" (p.111, Scholastic Hardbound edition), so it was obviously quite large. Harry was also clearly more interested in finding Sirius, as the obvious person to be on the tapestry; the first thing JKR wrote after the heading at the top of the tapestry was "'You're not on here!' said Harry, after scanning the bottom of the tapestry." (Ibid, emphasis added.) I think he got distracted, and we know JKR has "distracted" him before so he misses important information (and so do we!).
haymoni - Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am (#12 of 333)
I figured the tapestry was hanging on the wall and the people that Harry knew would be towards the bottom, so that's where he looked.
Mama Black must not have died that long ago if she added Draco to the tapestry.
Finn BV - Jan 29, 2006 7:20 am (#13 of 333)
Zelmia, naturally JKR could have told us that the Potters were on the tapestry. But why, if Harry didn't notice them? He also wouldn't have been thinking about keeping an eye out, because he probably didn't realize that they were at all related to the Blacks in any way. Sure, if you're looking for something, you'll search until you find it, but if you don't know it's there, you may pass your eyes over it and not make any connections.
Detail Seeker - Jan 29, 2006 8:12 am (#14 of 333)
Another observation, regarding ages: not only does Mrs. Potter, née Black, die rather young, also the other wizards do not seem have become significantly older than average muggles, reaching a lifespan of 75 - 81 years (maybe 86, depending on wether you read Belvina´s birthyear as 1886 oder 1876). Dorea and Charis do not count here, they have died exceptionally young. So, either the Black family does not produce long living wizards as a rule (Calliadora al. Grandma Longbottom as a possible exception, but she has not exceeded the life span of her relations as yet by far), or those really old wizards are an exception, too.
Talking about reproducing: The first two generations we see are quite strong: Phineas father had 4 children and Phineas seems to have had at least 3, possibly 4. The three visible or at least partly visible of these had three or (the boy who married Violetta Bulstrode) possibly four children. The following generation did not contribute to the growth of the old Wizarding Families. (Potters just one child, longbottoms two children, but at least one of Dorea´s siblings had more children (possibly four from the layout of the tree). Elladora and the unknown silbing of Phineas did not have any children, the one blasted from the tree is therefor not accountable.
So, if this were a normal pureblood family, there would be no danger of them dying out without muggle born wizards. It is just the last generation, that has thinned out very much (James potter one son, the malfoys one son, Frank Longbottom one son (who is his sister ?), Sirius and Regulus dying childless, Bellatrix propably not having a child either)
Rea - Jan 29, 2006 8:47 am (#15 of 333)
I think Longbottom had 3 children: 2Sons 1Daughter, as Burke (2S 1D)
Detail Seeker - Jan 29, 2006 9:05 am (#16 of 333)
I read this as "1s 1d", Rhea.
Interestingly, the paper showed us those parts of the tree, we did not know anything about, if we compare this to the one formerly depicted in the Lexicon, though it does not show the Weasly-Black relationship in that portion.
Solitaire - Jan 29, 2006 9:08 am (#17 of 333)
Just because James was an only child doesn't mean his father was ... does it? Could Charlus possibly have been James's uncle?
Choices - Jan 29, 2006 12:12 pm (#18 of 333)
haymoni - "Mama Black must not have died that long ago if she added Draco to the tapestry."
Mrs. Black passed in 1987 (seven years after Regulus was killed).
Betelgeuse Black - Jan 29, 2006 7:22 pm (#19 of 333)
My guess as to why the families seem to be dieing out is that there was a war going on during Voldemort's rise to power. War tends to kill off the young.
haymoni - Jan 30, 2006 6:52 am (#20 of 333)
How do we know that Mrs. Black died when she did? Is it in OotP?
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 30, 2006 7:33 am (#21 of 333)
Didn't Sirius mention in OotP something about Kreacher being alone in the house for ten years?
Anyway, I'm glad to see that most wizards seem to have a normal human lifespan. I never really liked the 150 year thing. I still prefer to think of Dumbledore as having been really, really old, but not abnormally old-- despite Rowling having said otherwise-- because I think it works better in the story.
I have a question: Is Phinaes Nigellus's last name Black, or is this just the Nigellus branch on the tapestry? Female lines don't seem to be continued on the tapestry, so if it was "Nigellus" why is it on there? Why is Narcissa Malfoy's, for that matter?
If those Potters are Harry's grandparents, how closely related were Sirius and James? Phinaes was Sirius's great, great grandfather. What kind of cousins would they be?
Aurora Gubbins - Jan 30, 2006 9:52 am (#22 of 333)
One of you really clever folks out there is going to sit and figure out the combination of the image and the information given in the book - now who will that be...
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 30, 2006 9:55 am (#23 of 333)
Somewhere in HBP, I think that DD refers to Phinaes as Phinaes Nigellus Black. I just don't remember where, but it is mentioned in one of the book chat chapter threads.
Choices - Jan 30, 2006 10:18 am (#24 of 333)
Haymoni - "How do we know that Mrs. Black died when she did?"
The Lexicon lists Mrs. Black as dying in 1987.
Mrs. Brisbee - "Is Phinaes Nigellus's last name Black?"
Yes, it is confirmed in chapter 13 of HBP that his last name is Black. I remember reading somewhere that "Nigellus" means Black in some language, so that would make him Phinaes Black Black. His birth date would make him only 7 years older than Dumbledore.
haymoni - Jan 30, 2006 10:20 am (#25 of 333)
Since "Bulstrode" appears on the Tree, I am guessing that the family was pure-blood at the time.
Doesn't mean that Millicent is a pure-blood, but Violetta must have been.
I wish we knew who the burn marks were!!!
Puck - Jan 30, 2006 10:50 am (#26 of 333)
If they did indeed have a great-great-grandfather in common, that would make James and Sirius 3rd cousins. Harry would be Sirius' 3rd cousin, once removed.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 30, 2006 11:46 am (#27 of 333)
Thank you, Choices and Puck. I can never sort out the cousin relationships.
Chemyst - Jan 30, 2006 3:35 pm (#28 of 333)
I remember reading somewhere that "Nigellus" means Black in some language, so that would make him Phinaes Black Black. – Choices
For that matter, Phineas is a variant of Phinehas, which means Nubian. Nubia is the region of southern Egypt and northern Sudan on the "dark" continent. So if you wanted, you could almost stretch it into a triple black.
PHINEHAS - means "Nubian" from the Egyptian name Panhsj, though some believe it means "serpent's mouth" in Hebrew.
NIGELLUS - Latinized form of NEIL. It is sometimes associated with Latin niger "black".
Madam Pince - Jan 30, 2006 6:18 pm (#29 of 333)
Wow! This is exciting stuff! And what about those other pages covering up the family tree -- "A Murder - A room - A man - A woman" and the picture of a "foul girl"???!!! What could those be all about???
I'm wondering about Charlus and Dorea being James' parents... I got the impression that Sirius and James were just friends rather than being cousins. Didn't Sirius say something about being so grateful that James' parents took him in and let him stay there sometimes -- which would tend to be a bigger deal because it was the parents of only a friend. However, if it was your cousins, then that might not seem so remarkable -- I mean, they'd be family, so it would almost be expected to take him in, wouldn't it?
I just never got the feeling that James and Sirius were related, even remote cousins. But I could be wrong!
I've spent the past week working on some geneaology stuff for Mr. Pince, and it's amazing how many of the same family names you come across, and the people really aren't related all that closely.
I sure hope that whoever wins this shares in the info! My birthday is on Feb. 20th, so if that really is the day they do a "reveal" then I would count that my birthday present and not ask for another!
Chemyst - Jan 30, 2006 7:07 pm (#30 of 333)
Madame Pince, I believe those other pages covering up the family tree are works of other authors who are also making donations of their own stuff to be auctioned off for Book Aid International.
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 30, 2006 7:17 pm (#31 of 333)
I know that the Black Family tree shows the name "Potter". But that Potter can't be Harry's grandparents, it just can't! That would negate the very basis of the books that Harry has no other living relatives than the Dursley.
If Sirius were James' cousin, then Harry could easily have gone to Sirius, or his mother, Mrs Black (yikes). Sirius saw Hagrid and presumably Harry after the attack, he could have told Hagrid I am his relative I'll go with you to DD so that I could keep Harry.
By the way Harry does have an appalling lack of curiosity when people are watching so he probably didn't look at the Family tree that carefully when he was talking with Sirius. Thank you for including the link to TLC. On my computer I can't get that close shot so I couldn't read anything.
Honour - Jan 30, 2006 7:49 pm (#32 of 333)
I think the premis JKR/Dumbledore was working with, concerning leaving Harry with family was immediate links, and as both sets of grandparents were deceased then of course Pet would be the only choice. Pet being muggle was an added bonus (would that be the right word?)as Harry would be relatively safe, anonymous to either worlds and not grow up full of himself (I paraphrase greatly). All of this combined with the "blood protection charm" cast by Dumbledore made Pet the best option in his opinion ...
Don't know if they have facilities for children in Azakaban, I think mama Black had kicked it by then, (and doubt if she would have a half blood in the house), options get scarrier, Harry being bought up by Narcissa, may have been hope for him with Andromeda, but Bella would have fried him on the spot, of course this is all based on the assumtion that Harry is closely related to the Blacks...
Steve of Ravenclaw - Jan 30, 2006 8:48 pm (#33 of 333)
Mrs. Sirius - people on the tree need not be alive! The Dorea listed next to Charlus(?) Potter has a date of death of 1977; we can assume Charlus died within a year or two as well. These dates easily fit in with what we've heard about James' parents!
Madam Pince - Jan 30, 2006 9:47 pm (#34 of 333)
I see what you mean, Mrs. Sirius. Good point. I think we have gone round-and-round about what Dumbledore meant about Harry not having any other living relatives -- how many "cousins away" would count? Third cousin twice-removed or something? Ah, well, we just don't know, I don't think.
Oh, Chemyst, stop raining on my parade! You're right of course! (I wondered who the photo was of the old guy with glasses "paperclipped" onto the other page -- Duh! ***thunks self in head with copy of HBP***)
Snuffles - Jan 31, 2006 1:06 am (#35 of 333)
**Passes Madam Pince a cold compress!***
Don't be too hard on yourself, it can happen to the best of us!
Aurora Gubbins - Jan 31, 2006 1:45 am (#36 of 333)
Correct me if my memory is failing - but didn't Harry acquire a wedding photo from James and Lily's wedding showing lots of relatives? Those of you who are very clever will work out if Dorea and Charlus were alive at the time of the wedding and if it could have been them in the photo, if it isn't it could be an aunt and uncle, brother and sister in law (very doubtful I know), or James' grandparents.
haymoni - Jan 31, 2006 5:30 am (#37 of 333)
I thought, too, that Dumbledore didn't want Harry to live with a wizarding family - it would turn his head.
Harry also needed to be where his MOTHER'S blood was, not his father's, so it had to be Pet - poor boy!
Ana Cis - Jan 31, 2006 6:19 am (#38 of 333)
Just a thought about Charles Potter, he may be Harry's great uncle instead of his grandfather. JKR has never told us the names of his grandparents, and she's sneaky enough to do that just to throw us off track. Remember in the Mirror of Erised, Harry saw several relatives.
Solitaire - Jan 31, 2006 6:54 am (#39 of 333)
It's also possible that Dorea and Charlus Potter could have been James's childless aunt and uncle ... or was there an indicator of children? I can't remember now.
Edit: Yep, Haymoni ... I just went back and saw that. It still could be an aunt and uncle, though.
haymoni - Jan 31, 2006 6:57 am (#40 of 333)
I think it says "1s" underneath it, implying "one son".
Ana Cis - Jan 31, 2006 7:36 am (#41 of 333)
Edited by Jan 31, 2006 7:38 am
So Charles is probably Harry's Grandfather. Her comment that there are many stories behind each line is the kind of quote that wears out my brain cells trying to figure it out. This raises so many questions.
Was DD a teacher when Phineas was Headmastater? Also, I wonder if Harfang and Augusta Longbottom are brother and sister.
haymoni - Jan 31, 2006 8:14 am (#42 of 333)
I think they are brother-in-law & sister-in-law.
I think Augusta was married to Harfang's brother.
skh - Jan 31, 2006 8:40 am (#43 of 333)
Could Charlus not be Harry's great-grandfather? Although I think grand-uncle or uncle might be more likely
haymoni - Jan 31, 2006 8:47 am (#44 of 333)
JKR said that James was a late in life baby, so his parents may be up a generation than what we would normally find.
Ginerva Potter - Jan 31, 2006 9:48 am (#45 of 333)
I think that Dorea is James Potter's mother. If James was born in either 1959 or 1960, that makes Dorea 39 or 40 when James was born. I'd say that is later in life for a first child and pretty common now a days. Just my two knuts...
azi - Jan 31, 2006 10:24 am (#46 of 333)
I agree. I also think Dorea is James' mother. The dates fit. What interests me is that she dies in 1977, which makes James about 17/18 at the time? Maybe this caused him to grow up and mature a bit?
It's also interesting that Sirius said that he was always welcome round to the Potter's for Sunday dinner after he got his own place when he was 17. Surely this wouldn't have gone on very long if this was Dorea's death year? I thought Mrs Potter was specifically mentioned, but I can't quite remember well enough.
Puck - Jan 31, 2006 11:49 am (#47 of 333)
Knew someone would do the math! So, it does work for her to be his mum. Mr. Potter may well have cooked for Sirius after his wife's death.
Azi, love the new avatar!
azi - Jan 31, 2006 11:52 am (#48 of 333)
Why thankyou Puck!
I wouldn't completely count on my maths though...best for someone to double check!
I worked on the basis of James being born in either 1959/60. I think 1960 is more likely.
Finn BV - Jan 31, 2006 1:50 pm (#49 of 333)
I suppose that, considering that James and Lily were what, around 21 or so when they had Harry, and there are a number of other parents in the series who had their children in their early to mid-twenties, having a child at 39 or 40 is fairly "old." Consider JKR, who had her first child when she was… 28? Is that right? Then again, my parents had me when they were 39 and 44, and you don't see me calling them old!!
dizzy lizzy - Jan 31, 2006 2:53 pm (#50 of 333)
The problem here is that we are trying to work out what Jo means by "late in life". Jo is sneaky enough to take advantage of the fact that we all interpret her comments differently based on our own personalities. Finn has a good point though. When I was younger (in my 20's) a friend had 2 children at 41 and 43 years respectively and I thought that was old. Now that I'm into my mid 30's, that doesn't seem old to me anymore!
Netherlandic - Jan 31, 2006 3:07 pm (#51 of 333)
Indeed. In The Netherlands a woman gives birth to her first child around the age of 29, so 21 would be considered very young.
Netherlandic - Jan 31, 2006 3:48 pm (#52 of 333)
On the questions for the host-tread Haymoni came up with an interesting question
Kip - would the Black Family Tree become canon?
The answer from Kip was: Kip Carter - Jan 30, 2006 3:42 pm (#1351 of 1351) haymoni, I would feel that the Black Family Tree would be as much canon as interviews with JKR, notes or drawings on her website or as a part of news article, etc., being those articles are her exact words, thoughts, and/or visual effects of which she produced.
I just hope the drawing is not an early one. I don't expect it to be but there is this slight chance that it could not be considered canon because of being an early draft.
(And JKR would get us all confused LOL)
Chemyst - Jan 31, 2006 4:36 pm (#53 of 333)
I just hope the drawing is not an early one. I don't expect it to be but...
Me too. However, it is so super-neat and centered with the nice little coat of arms that I think she probably recopied it from her notes just for this auction.
Amilia Smith - Jan 31, 2006 10:31 pm (#54 of 333)
Well, didn't the movie people say that they were having her draw up a picture of the Black Family Tree so they could use it in OotP? My guess is that this is a copy of the one she did for them. . . . Or maybe she gave the movie people the copy, and is auctioning off the original.
Eric Bailey - Feb 1, 2006 3:34 am (#55 of 333)
Charlus and Dorea as Harry's grandparents works out, perfectly.
I figure James to have been born in 1959, brecause that's the only way the other numbers really add up. JKR said Sirius was born in 1959, and that Snape was 37 at the beginning of HBP, which would mean HE was born in '59. Plus, they have to have spent some time at Hogwarts with Bellatrix, since Snape was part of their "gang". Andromeda has to be old enough to have a 23 year old daughter, so 18 years plus nine months would make her 42. Bellatrix is older than Andromeda, so is at least 43, unless she and Andromeda were twins (I've always liked the twin theory). She can't be any more than six years older than Sirius and company to have been at Hogwarts the same time they were, so either the twin theory is correct, or James was born in '59.
Either way, James's mother had him late, and 39 or 40, the age Doria was when James was born, is considered very late to have a child. And, Doria just happened to have only one child, a son, and was dead before Harry's birth, as Harry's grandmother happens to have been.
Of course, that would also mean that whenever Harry insults Slytherin, he's insulting his own grandmother's House.
Another thing... We have some evidence that the theory that Andromeda named her daughter an old family name is accurate. Notice that it's common for daughters in the Black family to have names ending with "dora".
Too bad we didn't get to see the far left side. We STILL don't know the names of the Black sisters' or Sirius's parents. I'd guess, also, that's where the Lovegoods are.
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 1, 2006 5:28 am (#56 of 333)
Great Work Mr Bailey!
If Amelia is right and this is a drawing of what we'll see in the movie once it's made I'll be closely watching for what hints and tips come out of the tapestry. Ooh! I can't wait! I can't wait!
Honour - Feb 1, 2006 5:38 am (#57 of 333)
I'd also like to see how the Gaunts fit into this lot as well, and if, as someone theorised awhile back, Marvolo married a Black? and which one?
And, if this is the Potter grandma and she is likely to be a descendant of Salazar Slytherin, then, somewhere way back in the far reaches of Lily's geneology was she a descendant of Godric Gryfindor for Harry to be a "true Gryffindor" to pull the sword out of the hat? Or is his Gryfindor descent from the Potter side of him?
Questions, questions, we need to see the rest of that family tree! Unless JKR drip feeds it to us over the next year, we probably won't see it until book 7 ... Or worse still this all could be irrelevant to the story line, as JKR has been trying to bring home to us from the beginning, that it is not who we are but the choices we make in our lives and the way we treat others ... OK I paraphrased big time there, but you get my drift... Truthfully, though, I don't think I totally agree with her, about the who part anyway ... OK rambling again am definately going to bed now ... sweet dreams everyone
Choices - Feb 1, 2006 12:14 pm (#58 of 333)
Eric - "Of course, that would also mean that whenever Harry insults Slytherin, he's insulting his own grandmother's House."
Just because Harry's grandma is on the Black Family Tree does not necessarily mean she was a Slytherin. It's likely, but not definite. If it is Harry's grandma, then her son James was a Gryffindor and she could have been also.
Elanor - Feb 1, 2006 12:58 pm (#59 of 333)
What interested me the most about that Family Tree was the crest drawn on it, especially because it was very much alike the one I have now put as my avatar. There are a lot of alchemical symbols bound to it, that I have just posted on the alchemy thread (here) so I thought I would post a link to this post here.
haymoni - Feb 1, 2006 1:06 pm (#60 of 333)
I'm trying to figure out what is written beneath the crest.
Some sort of family motto?
Elanor - Feb 1, 2006 1:16 pm (#61 of 333)
On the Black Family's crest? I think it is the family motto that was given in OotP: "Toujours pur" (always pure).
Eric Bailey - Feb 1, 2006 11:00 pm (#62 of 333)
Choices- "Just because Harry's grandma is on the Black Family Tree does not necessarily mean she was a Slytherin. It's likely, but not definite. If it is Harry's grandma, then her son James was a Gryffindor and she could have been also."
Well, her last name was "Black". Remember what Slughorn said about Sirius being the first Black not in Slytherin? Doria would have been a student when Slughorn was teaching, so Doria Black was a Slytherin.
I'd guess Charlus Potter to have been a Gryffindor.
skh - Feb 2, 2006 1:50 am (#63 of 333)
Now wouldn't the FULL tapestry be a fantastic item to have in the room of requirement for us to find as and when the door opens next?!!
Honour - like your point that the family tree is, in essence, pointless as it is all to do with our choices rather than who we are "a lá" Sirius, James (possibly) and so on...
Lastly, could some of the "blastees" (for want of a better word) could link back up to Gryffindor and - if other, more direct, Gryff descendants died out then Harry would be the only true descendant? I grant you that's a bit of a stretch...
Wizadora - Feb 2, 2006 6:51 am (#64 of 333)
Where is the name Dumbledore? On the other side of the chart or is he not from a pure breed family. I would think at 150 years old, he would have to have been related to someone on the chart we could see. JKR did say we should look to DD's family for clues. Are they all wiped out?
Steve Newton - Feb 2, 2006 7:57 am (#65 of 333)
A passing thought. JKR has been particular about her use of first names. The only repeaters so far, I think, are Tom, Ernie, Frank and Ted. The name Charlus (or Charles) is pretty close to Charlie.
haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 9:57 am (#66 of 333)
I'm sure Dumbledore's family would have been burned off as blood traitors.
Although, if Dumbledore is 150 year old, how old was Phineas Nigellus?
It's possible that "Dumbledore" is a Most Noble and Ancient House as well.
Rea - Feb 2, 2006 10:06 am (#67 of 333)
I think that Dorea can't be James' mother: in fact I think that if she was, Mrs Black would have blast her away, as far as she opened her home to Sirius and as James' parents, they should be considered blood traitors too, I suppose.
Choices - Feb 2, 2006 10:22 am (#68 of 333)
Phineas Nigellus is 7 years older than Dumbledore according to the Lexicon.
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 2, 2006 10:35 am (#69 of 333)
Wizadora: The Dumbledore family can't be wiped out - who would tend the bar in the Hogs Head?
haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 11:07 am (#70 of 333)
Mrs. B might not have known where Sirius stayed.
I'm guessing the uncle that left Sirius the money got blasted off though!
I'm guessing Dumbledore's family is just as old as the Blacks and maybe they stayed clear of marrying any of them.
If Dumbledore is the same age as Phineas and we have no evidence of him having been married or having children, his family tree would be quite bare.
Wizadora - Feb 2, 2006 1:42 pm (#71 of 333)
Aurora - DD himself? Have we ever seen Albus and Aberforth together??
Choices - Feb 2, 2006 6:00 pm (#72 of 333)
I don't think we have, although I'm wondering about the photograph of the Order that Moody showed Harry. He points out Aberforth as being "a strange bloke" and says he only met him once. I wonder if Dumbledore was at that meeting? I don't recall him being in the photograph, but if he was there, then they were together for that meeting. However.... that is pure speculation on my part.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 2, 2006 6:31 pm (#73 of 333)
Albus Dumbledore and Aberforth Dumbledore were both present at event during which the photo was taken.
There's me, said Moody unnecessarily, pointing at himself... "And there is Dumbledore standing beside me and Dedalus Diggle on other other side...."...."That's Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, only tiime I ever met him strange bloke..." pages 250-251 of the large print edition published by Thorndike Press
Lilly P - Feb 3, 2006 6:29 am (#74 of 333)
I ran all the info from the chart for auction through my geneology computer program, the critical piece of information I am missing is wether Sirius was decended from Phineus' son that married Violetta Bulstrode or his son Arcturus that married Lysandra Yaxley. Has anyone gotten this information from another sorce?
haymoni - Feb 3, 2006 6:56 am (#75 of 333)
I don't think we'll really know for sure until we can see the left side of the tree.
Shamrock - Feb 3, 2006 7:21 am (#76 of 333)
Help please - the link to the page of the family tree isnt working for me. Dont know if it the work computers fault or whether its been shut down. Does anyone know how I can get a look at this
Steve Newton - Feb 3, 2006 7:24 am (#77 of 333)
Shamrock, I tried several times last night and could not get it. I think that Kip was on to something when he added his note at the top of the thread that we should be ready for the url to move. Perhaps there were copyright issues.
Choices - Feb 3, 2006 9:22 am (#78 of 333)
Thanks for finding that passage about Aberforth and Dumbledore being at the Order meeting and in the photograph. I didn't have my book handy, so I appreciate you looking it up and confirming that information. :-) It also occured to me that they may frequently see each other at the Hog's Head, but we have no canon for that.
Esther Rose - Feb 3, 2006 9:44 am (#79 of 333)
Choices, I thought it interesting that Dumbledore visits the Three Broomsticks but only stops in front of Hogs Head to apparate. I am imagining that this is a signal to his brother to do something for him. Nonverbal communication is what twins do best with each other.
As I mentioned else where, I would imagine Tonks would feel it was her duty to watch over Harry since they would also be related in a 1st/2nd cousin removed sort of way.
Soul Search - Feb 3, 2006 9:51 am (#80 of 333)
While we don't have canon of Albus and the barman actually together, we do have references that imply it.
In the HBP pensive scene where Tom Riddle visits Dumbledore, Tom asks how Dumbledore knew about his companions, Dumbledore replies about a "friendly barman." Tom's companions were staying at the Hog's Head.
When Dumbledore and Harry are going out of Hogwarts, on their way to the cave, Dumbledore implies that his going to the Hog's Head would not seem out of place. They meet Madam Rosmerta and Dumbledore says they will be going to the Hog's Head tonight, "for a little quiet," implying that Dumbledore might sometimes visit the Three Broomsticks and sometimes the Hog's Head.
So, the implications are that Dumbledore does visit the Hog's Head, where he encounters the barman, believed to be Aberforth.
Esther Rose - Feb 3, 2006 10:08 am (#81 of 333)
I am sorry Soul Search. I meant to say that he only stops in front of Hogs Head on the night Harry and Dumbledore visit the cave. I don't think this was done just to throw of Madam Rosemerta, I think this was also done as a signal for Aberforth to carry something out while Harry and Dumbledore were away from Hogwarts.
I remember reading somewhere that JKR almost confirms that the barman at Hogs Head is actually Aberforth.
Choices - Feb 3, 2006 10:13 am (#82 of 333)
Choices - "It also occured to me that they may frequently see each other at the Hog's Head, but we have no canon for that."
I said that because there are definitely suggestions that they see each other, but it doesn't come right out and say so.....it is merely implied.
Soul Search - Feb 3, 2006 10:26 am (#83 of 333)
And all the "implications" about the barman make me suspicious too. No doubt we will be seeing more of Aberforth, the bar man, in book seven.
I am interested, Esther Rose. Do you have any ideas as to what Aberforth might have been doing while Harry and Dumbledore were in the cave?
Netherlandic - Feb 3, 2006 10:30 am (#84 of 333)
Choices, Dumbledore is friendly with the local barman after all....lol
Soul Search, perhaps Aberforth is taking care of the spying Aurors who had to find out where DD was going every time.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 3, 2006 11:18 am (#85 of 333)
Rhe information about the crest on the Black Family Tree comees from the Lexicon [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Family Crest is mentioned in OP6 but not described; however, Rowling drew it on her Black Family Tree. It shows a shield with greyhounds rampant charged with a chevron, 2 five-pointed stars and a short sword. In the formal language of heraldry, it is: "Sable, a chevron between two mullets in chief and a sword in base, argent." (Thanks to Richard for the terminology).
The shield is sable which is a Black color which can represent constancy or grief.
The mullets depending on their location could represent wither a divine quality or could indicate that the original bearer of the crest was the third son of his father.
The greyhounds rampant symbolize courage, loyalty and vigilance.
The charge is a chevron in chief in that the chevron rises to the top of the shield. The chevron represents protection.
The sword reprsents justice. The sword is argent which is a term for silver. The color silver represents purity, innocence peace and sincerity. The color silver also repsents the moon
Steve Newton - Feb 3, 2006 11:28 am (#86 of 333)
Earlier I had posted:
A passing thought. JKR has been particular about her use of first names. The only repeaters so far, I think, are Tom, Ernie, Frank and Ted. The name Charlus (or Charles) is pretty close to Charlie.
I have since realized that Bartemius has also been repeated. Also note that there is a chance that Ted Tonks and Ted the newscaster may be the same person.
Esther Rose - Feb 3, 2006 12:34 pm (#87 of 333)
Soul Search: I am not sure yet what Aberforth's roll was on the night Harry and Dumbledore went into the cave. I will have to reread from there until the end to figure it out I think.
My first thought is that he was to keep DEs from following Dumbledore. My second thought was that there is something that Aberforth did to keep the "worst case scenario" from happening or kept an eye out for the "worst case scenario". A possible worst case scenarios being Voldemort making a personal appearance at Hogsmead, Hogwarts or the surrounding areas. But this is all guess. I can't see Harry and Dumbledore aparating from in front of Hogs Head as something Albus would arbitrarily do. Especially considering the lengths Albus goes through to ensure Harry's traveling safety.
Wizadora - Feb 3, 2006 12:56 pm (#88 of 333)
I have always been suspicious of Aberforth. When the events unfolded outside the Hogs Head it made me even more weary. In my disbelief that DD was dead, I thought of a switching plot between him and Aberforth. But now I think that DD is really dead, there needs to be a reason that DD went there to aparate, maybe the Hogs Head has special protections on it so that Aberforth is able to trace where DD aparates to in case he has to come and get him. Like redial! I am sure that there is some secret mission that Aberforth is doing under cover for DD, I just don't know what.
No one else in the books talks about DD's brother and how he is the bartender, so it appears that it is a secret. Why? Is he supposed to be dead?
haymoni - Feb 3, 2006 1:02 pm (#89 of 333)
Or maybe it is such common knowledge they don't feel the need to talk about it.
Choices - Feb 3, 2006 5:28 pm (#90 of 333)
I got absolutely no impression that Dumbledore apparating in front of the Hog's Head had anything to do with Aberforth having a job to do while Dumbledore was gone. I think it's just that the street in front of the Hog's Head is quiet and deserted and a good place from which to apparate without being seen.
Amilia Smith - Feb 3, 2006 6:38 pm (#91 of 333)
Shamrock: The link to Leaky's picture has been down for a few days. I think it coincided with their redesign. However, by following Nathan's link, I found that the info was up on the Lexicon. :-)
The Lex's recreation using the drawing and info from OotP.
The drawing itself.
Tazzygirl - Feb 4, 2006 1:47 am (#92 of 333)
Rea--I think that Dorea can't be James' mother: in fact I think that if she was, Mrs Black would have blast her away, as far as she opened her home to Sirius and as James' parents, they should be considered blood traitors too, I suppose.
There is probably a longer discussion about this previously (don't have the time to go back and read 68+ posts!! ), but I thought I would say: I was actually thinking about this concept for a couple days now! Part of me thinks that Dorea and Charlus are James's parents, because it does say '1S' underneath, which I am assuming means '1 Son'. He isn't named, so maybe they knew how he would turn out and didn't bother putting his name on the tapestry. Maybe the reason Dorea's name wasn't blackened out was because she still went with the Black family values. I am also assuming Charlus had the same values.
Sorry if this was already covered!! I thought I would put my two cents in... (Plus, it doesn't really hurt to go over a topic over and over again, does it? )
Ponine - Feb 4, 2006 2:56 am (#93 of 333)
Hey everyone -- This is so much fun!! Does anyone but me have a irresistable urge to place Dumbledore at the earliest cigarette burn we can see??? I mean - why and who would have or could have earned such a dubious honor at that point in time?? Would that also fit with Dumbledore being about seven years younger than Phineas? Ok, go ahead - laugh...
Puck - Feb 4, 2006 12:52 pm (#94 of 333)
Ponine, I agree it's possible, though for some reason I don't want to think DD is related so closely to the Blacks.
Tazzy, I always figured James parents would be more open minded. Perhaps they just didn't voice their opinions at family gatherings.
Eric Bailey - Feb 4, 2006 2:04 pm (#95 of 333)
Well, I don't see how the Dumbledores could have avoided having some Black blood in there, somewhere, since all the pureblood families are related. That said, I've always suspected that the Dumbledores, along with Luna and the Ollivanders, are from much, much, older families than the Blacks, Malfoys, and Lestranges. My theory is Sidhe ancestory, them being from the same families that produced Merlin and Morgan le Fey.
Luna and the Ollivanders have those eyes as distinguishing features, large, silver, reflective, moonlike, and don't seem to blink "like norman humans". I've always thought that an interesting choice of words for JKR to use, "like normal humans", instead of "normal person", suggesting not entirely human ancestory. If JKR is drawing fully from the Celtic mythology that gave her Merlin, that'd be a perfect explanation for those particular qualities Luna has, her physical features, her etherial quality, her old magic feel, and her high, though unusual, intelligence. The Blacks have only been a magical British family since the Middle Ages, about 1500 years, or so, while the Ollivanders have been in the wand business for 2400 years, about the time the Irish took and named what is now Scotland.
The Dumbledores don't have that physical feature with the eyes, but they're pretty unusual, themselves. They have the old magic feel and high, but unusual, intelligence that Luna has. Harry's first impression of Dumbledore was pretty much the same as his first impression of Luna. Plus, look at how old Dumbledores get. As we saw from the Tapestry, wizards who made it into their early 80s were considered long lived, but Dumbledore was close to 150 and didn't die of natural causes, and his brother's got to be up there, too. The McGonagalls, being an old magical Celtic family, would likely have Sidhe ancestory, too. There'd be some ancient Egyptian Pharaohs mixed in there, as well, given who Scotland was named for.
So, we'd have the oldest magical families being considered "blood traitors" by these relative newcomers. From these older families' POV, blood started being mixed so heavily way back when these muggleborns like the Blacks, Malfoys, and Lestranges came along, so it's a bit late to be griping about it, now. "Well, we used to be pureblood, until the Blacks married into the family..."
Tazzygirl - Feb 4, 2006 3:26 pm (#96 of 333)
ooooh. Very interesting theories about DD's family!
Puck- that could be it too, over James's parents... hmmmmm....
Choices - Feb 4, 2006 4:31 pm (#97 of 333)
Eric - "...and high, but unusual, intelligence that Luna has."
Interesting observations Eric. Your comments made me think also of Dumbledore and Luna both being considered "nuts". Ron makes some comments about Dumbledore being brilliant but strange, and everyone seems to think Luna is strange. Could be a connection there.
Madame Librarian - Feb 4, 2006 4:36 pm (#98 of 333)
In regard to Luna and Ollivander sharing some possible family traits around the eyes, I recall (though cannot at the moment cite canon quotes) that DD's eyes twinkled and glinted often, and his specs were silvery. Enough, perhaps, to make us think of a slim connection to the other two.
Oh, just a very thin conncection, but, hey, that's whats' fun about this kind of speculation.
Ann - Feb 5, 2006 7:36 am (#99 of 333)
I love the Lexicon! Otherwise, I would never have seen this image. But I'm a bit puzzled. We've clearly got only a corner of this. And someone is going to buy it and be able to unfold it. Will we get to know what's on the rest of it then? Will it depend upon who buys it? (I can see the urge to hoard information about the series that no one else has, but it would be WRONG.)
But note the dates and the notations (like 1s 2d) that presumably indicate children. Dorea Black and Charles Potter seem likely to have been Harry's grandparents, or perhaps great-grandparents. (None of the examples given, unfortunately, tell us whether witches' longer lives translate into longer periods of fertility; if not, great-grandparents are more likely--though I think JKR said that James' parents were elderly. But if Harry is anywhere on this family tree, you'd have expected Sirius to point it out when they were talking about it, particularly since he'd mentioned James' parents. And I would wonder why Dumbledore (and JKR repeatedly) says that Harry has no living relatives.
And what do you want to bet that the 1 s of Charis Black and Caspar Crouch was Bartimius Crouch, Sr.? And Caractus Burke is one of the two sons of Herbert Burke and Belvina Black? It's all very interesting.
Solitaire - Feb 5, 2006 9:47 am (#100 of 333)
Is this the family tree that was actually used in the books ... or is it an early draft that may have been altered before the books were actually written? Just wondering ...
Choices - Feb 5, 2006 10:16 am (#101 of 333)
I think that is a definite possibility Solitaire. I just don't think JKR is going to release something that is going to give us too much information or be too revealing.
Lilly P - Feb 5, 2006 10:56 am (#102 of 333)
I think Charlus Potter probley had a brother and it was he who was James dad. so it's possible that Sirius and James were related loosley through marraige but with no real "blood" between them, therefore James/Lily/Harry would not show up on the tree. Someone suggested much the same theory a few days ago regarding Harfang Longbottom haveing a brother who was Nevill's Grandfather.
Solitaire - Feb 5, 2006 11:27 am (#103 of 333)
I've also suggested that Charlus could have been James's uncle ... although Dorea seems to have died around the same time that James's mom must have died. Still, I guess that could have been a coincidence. If Charlus is James's uncle, it would also mean that James had at least one cousin. Another possibility is that Charlus could have been a cousin of James's father. This would remove him farther from Harry.
Ann - Feb 5, 2006 11:07 pm (#104 of 333)
Ponine suggested, a page or two back, that Dumbledore might be the younger brother of Phineas Nigellus--the oldest of the people blasted off the tapestry. I've been thinking about this today, and I find it an interesting idea, mainly because, if he left his family and made up a name (and Dumbledore does sound like a made-up name), Albus would make a great first name, since it means "white" (= not Black). The only problem I see with this is that there is no space for Aberforth. There is an eldest sibling, but he is not blasted off and he seems to have died in something-3. Still, a nice theory.
Solitaire - Feb 5, 2006 11:33 pm (#105 of 333)
Interesting idea ...
Wizadora - Feb 6, 2006 9:11 am (#106 of 333)
Ann - then maybe my "they are the same person" theory can live on?
Eric Bailey - Feb 7, 2006 2:19 am (#107 of 333)
Well, there's Albus's brother to consider. Sure, Dumbledore isn't a name in the real world, but neither is Malfoy, or the surnames of the Hogwarts founders. Is Dumbledore really any stranger sounding than Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and Slytherin?
Besides, Sirius didn't change his last name after his nutter of a mother blasted him off the Tapestry. And, again, Dumbledores seem to live much longer than Blacks or your other average wizards. That's part of why I think the Dumbledores, among some others, come from much older magical roots than most.
Steve Newton - Feb 7, 2006 5:49 am (#108 of 333)
Eric, are you suggesting Merlin?
Choices - Feb 7, 2006 9:13 am (#109 of 333)
Either that or Dumbledore accepted a few drinks of Elixir of Life from his friend Flamel and that has extended his life.
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 8, 2006 2:48 am (#110 of 333)
Dumbledore is very old English for bumblebee, so it is a real word and could have been used as a name when people first started taking surnames. I know of some very unusual surnames that are not so commonly used, like Twelvetrees, Thundercliffe, Bottom and Shufflebottom.
frogface - Feb 8, 2006 3:08 am (#111 of 333)
I'm auditioning to be in Midsummer Nights Dream tonight...but thats kind of irrelevant. I've always hoped that the Dumbledore's came from a muggleborn background, although of course there is large speculation he is descended from Gryffindor. Also JKR has said (major paraphrasing going on here) that his heritage would be a proftible line of inquiry. But did she mean for us? Or for Harry? Because so far we haven't had anything to go on really except hints that his brother runs the Hogs Head. I'm desperate to see the rest of that family tree!
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 8, 2006 3:16 am (#112 of 333)
Hey Frogface - I must be living in the Twilight Zone: I've just made a fairy costume for a girl acting in A Midsummer Night's Dream!
Eric Bailey - Feb 8, 2006 4:23 am (#113 of 333)
Steve, "Eric, are you suggesting Merlin?"
More the family Merlin (and Morgan le Fey)came from (The Ollivanders were in the wand business eight centuries before Merlin came along, and 1400 years before Hogwarts was founded), though the Dumbledore brothers could be descended directly from Merlin. It's my pet theory I posted a couple of pages back regarding the features and characteristics of certain folk like Luna, the Ollivanders, and the Dumbledores, how they seem almost a different breed than most other purebloods. The idea is JKR using the Celtic mythology she got Merlin from, involving a VERY old magical family.
It'd also provide places for Mr. Ollivander to be hiding out. There would be places even Voldemort can't find. It'd even fit the series' Hero's Journey structure, perfectly, and be downright mythic if Harry visits one of these places, especially Avalon.
Of course, it's also a nice spot for Andromeda and Ted to be, how they've managed to avoid everybody all this time, while still being very actively doing stuff, and making their daughter's name and abilities all the more appropriate.
Madam Pince - Feb 8, 2006 11:18 am (#114 of 333)
...unusual surnames that are not so commonly used, like Twelvetrees, Thundercliffe, Bottom and Shufflebottom.
OK, this is off-topic, but I just can't stop laughing... I was skim reading those and I thought it read "Thunderbottom" and I thought "What a horrible name to have!"
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 9, 2006 4:31 am (#115 of 333)
Madam Pince!!! I suggest you, Madam, give those spectacles of yours a scourgify!
Back to topic - for those who are interested, the tree is to be auctioned on the 21st February and, alas, I am to be away from the London area the weekend of 18th/19th February when the framed and mounted Black Family Tree will be AVAILABLE FOR VIEWING!!!!! I received my (expensive) copy of the catalogue this morning and was disappointed but not surprised to see that the catalogue only shows an illustration of the crest and Jo's wording/signature. (The thing about "MURDER, A Room, A Man, A Woman" is actually a piece donated by Sir Tom Stoppard.)
Anybody free in London on the 18th?
Good Evans - Feb 9, 2006 5:12 am (#116 of 333)
I'm stuck in the office for annual billing I really wanted to go up - ho hum
haymoni - Feb 9, 2006 6:00 am (#117 of 333)
Aurora - I am really interested in knowing who buys it and for how much.
Please report back.
Shamrock - Feb 9, 2006 7:45 am (#118 of 333)
Thanks Mills for posting the Tree again. Ive been unable to visit the site untill today and it was great that I could finally get a glimse at it.
I would love to be available on the 18th but fingers crossed someone will
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 9, 2006 10:15 am (#119 of 333)
Haymoni; We will definitely find out how much it will sell for but as is usually the case with these things, it will end up in an anonymous buyer's private collection. Apparently the British press seem to think it will sell for around £50,000.00. Shall we all chip in a few quid and see if we can get a piece each? I would guess that the tree will be protected by some sort of charm (a sheet of paper). Maybe Rita Skeeter could get in there and copy it down for us?
Madam Pince - Feb 9, 2006 2:16 pm (#120 of 333)
If I were going to bid that much money on something like that, I would most definitely keep the original but sell one photograph of it to some tabloid, just for enough to recoup what I paid for it. (Yes, I am shameless....) Surely a tabloid would pay, right?
Then everyone would get to see it for a minimal purchase price of the cost of a paper, the charity would gain through the auction, the tabloid would gain through sales, the owner would break-even price wise but would still own a really cool JKR original, -- everybody wins! (I must be overlooking something here... that's too easy...)
Puck - Feb 9, 2006 7:44 pm (#121 of 333)
Is Azi in London? I mean I would go, but it would involve a long plane ride with an infant, and I don't think the hubby would do for it.
Madame Pince, I think it's a perfect plan! If you front the cash for the auction I'll happily purchase a copy of the Enquirer!
A corner of that document has lead to over a hundred posts, imagine what we could do with the whole thing!
Madam Pince - Feb 9, 2006 10:03 pm (#122 of 333)
Oh, yeah.... I knew I was missing something! Fronting the cash...
bigearl - Feb 10, 2006 10:34 am (#123 of 333)
I too found it odd, that many of the members of the Black Family (listed so far) lived for ordinary (muggle-length) life spans of 80-90 years.
Professor Marchbanks tested Dumbledore in his N.E.W.T.s so she has got to be 175 years old or more.
But, when you look at the 'Famous Wizard Cards' (I found them listed on the Lexicon) most of the witches and wizards listed lived less than 100 years.
So I like Idea, that perhaps the Wizards who live extra long lives are from a different or older stock of Wizarding Family.
I also like the irony that the 'Blood-Purists', like the Blacks and Malfoys are actually of inferior Wizard Stock, mudbloods in their own right.
azi - Feb 10, 2006 11:51 am (#124 of 333)
Unfortunately Puck, I reside in York which is in the north of England.
I would *love* to have/see the whole thing though!
Maybe someone with a good memory will view it, memorize it's contents and then draw it for everyone? Unfortunately, we have no idea whether they would be telling the truth...
Ann - Feb 10, 2006 3:26 pm (#125 of 333)
It's been suggested on the Website thread that she might post it on the day of the viewing. Wouldn't that be nice!
I was sorry that the family tree didn't answer one of my idle questions about witches, in particular: are their childbearing years commensurately longer than Muggle women's? Unfortunately, it's a really patriarchal tree--birthdates are only given for children who bear the name of Black, which means you never get birth-years for children of mothers whose birth-years you know. Annoying. (But then patriarchy always is!)
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 10, 2006 3:26 pm (#126 of 333)
Azi; I'm really from your neck of the woods but live in Greater London these days - sadly I will be nearer you than me, er, you know what I mean. The worst thing is I had the opportunity to get complimentary tickets to the auction...AAAAAARRGH!!!!!
Puck - Feb 10, 2006 7:34 pm (#127 of 333)
Oh well, Azi! I was hoping!
We just need someone with a camera phone who'll be in the area...
I, too, love the idea of families being of older wizarding blood, and those such as the Malfoys being a bit "inferior" as far as bloodline are concerned.
hawick girl - Feb 10, 2006 7:46 pm (#128 of 333)
bigearl said in Post #123:
I too found it odd, that many of the members of the Black Family (listed so far) lived for ordinary (muggle-length) life spans of 80-90 years.
When was this? Life spans haven't been 80-90 years until recently, and I think that 80-90 is a bit far in most countries, even now.
I found this in the Wikipedia:
The following information is derived from the Encyclopedia Britannica, 1961:
Humans by Era, Average Lifespan (in years)
Classical Greece, 28
Classical Rome, 28
Medieval England, 33
End of 19th Century, 37
Early 20th Century, 50
Circa 1940, 65
Current (in the Western world), 77-81
I linked the World Factbook of at-birth life expectancy (2005). It ranks most of the World's countries here.
US (World Factbook)
total population: 77.71 years
male: 74.89 years
female: 80.67 years (2005 est.)
Dumbledore was born c. 1840 (the Lex), and his "muggle life expectancy" would have presumably been 37 or so, so even if he lived until 80 or so he would have lived twice the average life-span. So I would say that the ages that we see in the Potterverse is abnormal for when they were born. Even if they were Muggles.
Eric Bailey - Feb 11, 2006 12:26 am (#129 of 333)
That's one of the reasons I've always pictured Eleanor of Aquitaine as the founder of Beauxbatons in the Potterverse, because not only was she largly responsible for the popularity of the Grail myth, and thus the King Arthur legends associated with it, but was a 10th Century woman who lived to be 80. Of course, Joan of Arc's mother lived to be 81, through the Black Plague AND the Hundred Years War.
But, you have to admit that the Dumbledore brothers are unusually long lived compared to their contemporaries like Phineas that we see on the Tapestry.
Choices - Feb 11, 2006 10:30 am (#130 of 333)
Eric, was Eleanor of Aquitaine a witch? Surely a witch founded Beauxbatons - a school for young witches and wizards.
Eric Bailey - Feb 11, 2006 11:41 pm (#131 of 333)
That's why I said in the Potterverse. In a world where the Celtic myths are real history, she has magical ancestry. As the one who was responsible for popularizing those Celtic myths, it'd be just like her to found a magical school, in a universe where that sort of magic existed.
Ann - Feb 12, 2006 8:54 am (#132 of 333)
The thing about those average lifespan dates is they are averages. So childhood mortality (which was extremely high) brings them down radically. So does the large number of women who die in childbirth and the number of young men who die by violence. For the rich (that is, the people who got adequate nutrition), once they'd reached 35 (for men) or 45 (for women), it wouldn't be terribly unusual to live on into their 80s.
Witches and wizards would presumably have had fairly decent nutrition, and been able to cure things like infections long before the discovery of antibiotics (which was a major factor in the increase of average lifespan today). But to live past 150, as Dumbledore did, or even longer, as one assumes Madam Marchbanks must have (175? 200? How old would one have to be to become a N.E.W.Ts examiner? You'd think in her 50s at least), requires some fundamental differences in the durability of human organs. So yes, I'd say it's surprising that the Black family members didn't live longer.
Netherlandic - Feb 12, 2006 9:11 am (#133 of 333)
Ann, my thoughts exactly. You have put it into words like I would not be able to.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 12, 2006 9:29 am (#134 of 333)
Yes, good points, Ann.
I think to live that far beyond the upper limits of a human lifespan would require some sort of artificial means, like the Elixer of Life. Or the person might be only part human, and their nonhuman ancestry is granting them a long life. We do have part-giants, part-veelas, and part-goblins running around, so that is possible also.
Since the Blacks were obsessed with being pure blooded, I think we can be sure those on the Tapestry were full human, and so lived normal human lifespans.
Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 12, 2006 10:57 am (#135 of 333)
Some random observations about the family tree. This is the area that does not show the Malfoy's and Black's. We have Crouch and Longbottom related. Could Barty Sr have been cousin to Neville's grandmother? Phineus Nigella married Ursual Flint - any relation to the Slytherin quiddich captain?
This family tree makes the first war at the time of Harry's birth even more devestating as, like the American and British civil wars, family fought family.
Ann - Feb 12, 2006 12:18 pm (#136 of 333)
Mrs Brisbee, hasn't Jo said that wizards and witches simply live longer than Muggles? So I don't think it would need the Elixer of Life or being intermarried with giants or veelas or goblins. I think it's just a function of magic.
I added up the ages at death recorded on what we can see of the Family Tree, and arranged them by generation. They are, from earliest to latest:
Phineas Nigellus Black, 79; Elladora Black, 81
Belvina Black, 76; Arcturus Black, 75
Dorea Black, 57; Callidora Black, 80+ (still living 1995); Charis Black, 54
It's an odd pattern. No change in life expectancy over time (and a time when it went up dramatically for Muggles, I think). In fact, on average, it goes down: 80, 76, 64+. Not a big enough sample to say anything generally, though I wonder about those two witches who died in their fifties. (Could they still have been of childbearing age?) Accio rest of the Tree!
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 12, 2006 9:07 pm (#137 of 333)
According to both the Lexicon and The Leaky Cauldron are reporting that Italian newspaper La Repubblica published new photographs of the Black Family Tree and that a portion of the tree was obscured on the request of J.K. Rowling.
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This raises the question does the portion obscured relate to Sirius and Regulus or the Dumbledore brothers.
Some of the new information that is related in the Family Tree is the following:
Draco Malfoy's year of birth is given as 1980.
Narcissa Malfoy's birth year is given as 1955.
Draco Malfoy's maternal grandmother's name is given as Drusilla
Phineas Nigellus has an older brother named Sirius
Also I believe there is a birth year beneath Bellatrix's name.
Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 13, 2006 1:30 am (#138 of 333)
Having looked at the Leaky Cauldron's redone one we can see Regulus and a scorch mark. if we think back to OoP the mark between Bellatrix and Narcissa will be Andromeda. The line above Regulus with the scorch mark would be the uncle that gave Sirius his money. Very possibly another scorch mark is the Weasley line. My guess is that the scorch mark at the top is the Dumbledore line.
skh - Feb 13, 2006 5:19 am (#139 of 333)
If Jo has blurred half the tree, does that not indicate that she will be unwilling to release this to the general public? Of course, it's probably just that she wants to protect the worth of the Tree, both for the sake of the charity and also in fairness to the potential buyers... but maybe part of her also doesn't want to release it if some of the info on there is too important to the story?
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 13, 2006 5:48 am (#140 of 333)
It does look like Mrs. Black's maiden name was Black after all.
Mare - Feb 13, 2006 5:58 am (#141 of 333)
Maybe that is the reason why the Blacks don't seem to live as long as other wizards do, marrying in your own gene pool isn't the most healthy thing to do.
Finn BV - Feb 13, 2006 6:29 am (#142 of 333)
skh, I'm guessing she just blurred it so that the person who buys it doesn't feel completely ripped off. Naturally, just having the Tapestry in your hands is something, but the information is also a large percentage of it.
Puck - Feb 13, 2006 7:45 am (#143 of 333)
Agreed, Finn. If the information was that important to the story she wouldn't let it out there at all.
Rea - Feb 13, 2006 8:13 am (#144 of 333)
Or as far as the willingness to pay would be maximized if there is some valuable information, and this is a charity auction, maybe Jo wants to maximize the final value of the item.
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 13, 2006 11:10 am (#145 of 333)
The information on the Tapestry, once it gets out I'm sure will be invaluably informative. It seem those burn outs and blurs are very strategic.
JKR has tended to give out valuable info outside of canon sources in the past, like the Evans last name. This is a great way for her to give us information she wants us to have before the book comes out, but that she may not want to include directly in the book.
Eric Bailey - Feb 13, 2006 11:41 am (#146 of 333)
Again, I don't think Albus changed his name, since he has a brother. Plus, the Dumbledore brothers are so much longer lived than the Blacks of their generation. So, I'm going with my theory that the Dumbledores are connected to the Ollivanders and Lovegoods (also noticably absent from the Black Family Tree, so far, at any rate), much, much, older magical families.
Drusilla, huh? A BtVS homage? Joss Whedon did refer to HP a few times over the course of that series, and I could see Jo being as big a fan of Buffy as Joss is of her work, and naming a character after one of their most popular vampires. I can see the crossover fic, now...
Spike: Yeah, Andy here's sort of my kid sister. Dru left me the first time in the 50s, married some wizard bloke... Took a lot of magic to get her knocked up... Three times if you can bloody believe it... Kids took after her, too...
Andromeda: Excuse me?!!!
Spike: Well, you've gotta admit, Bella...
Andromeda: OK, I'll give you Bella...
Spike: And, she does love you, you know. That's why she left your dad when he kicked you out.
Andromeda: She didn't leave him... She ripped out his throat and ate him. It was quite the scandal. Cissy's still embarrassed about it.
And, we've almost got the Black sisters' ages settled, the only question now being whether or not Bellatrix and Andromeda were twins. Narcissa is 41 at the beginning of HBP. If the older sisters aren't twins, Bellatrix is 43 and Andromeda 42, as Bellatrix can't be any older than that to have been at Hogwarts the same time as the Marauders for at least a year.
But, we don't now know whether it was Sirius's mom or dad that was the sisters' father's sibling. Eep! Though, that DOES lend credence to the theory that Andromeda and Sirius had been betrothed as children.
Ann - Feb 14, 2006 2:28 pm (#147 of 333)
What I think is really interesting about the blurred version of the Black family tree published in the Italian press is that there are many lines of blurred text at the bottom. Could these be footnotes, identifying all the burn marks? That would be cool. A circumstance in favor of that is that there are seven of them at the far left, with a caption. ("Deleted names" perhaps?) If they are, though, I suspect none of them is Dumbledore, since she's suggested that Dumbledore's family background would be of important later.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 14, 2006 6:49 pm (#148 of 333)
Okay, I found the quote about wizard longevity, from the Scholastic 2000 interview:
Question: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall?
J.K. Rowling responds: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.)
I was taking "life expectancy" to mean the "average life span", which is, I think, what it usually means. Context though makes it sound like Rowling meant "maximum life span". Maximum life span for humans would be around 120 years (according to Wikipedia, there was a frenchwoman who lived to 122). There is a huge gap between 120 and 150-- not to mention the fact that Madam Marchbanks is even older than Dumbledore. Most wizards, though, do seem to fall into the maximum life span for a normal human. Perhaps Rowling will someday clarify what she meant.
Finn BV - Feb 20, 2006 2:40 pm (#149 of 333)
Thanks to a loving TLC reader, the rest of the Tapestry has been confirmed! Perhaps visiting the HPL What's New? page would sum it up the best! Go check it out everyone!
I particularly like 'Walburga' who was the mother of Sirius and Regulus, the latter of whom died at only age 18 when the DEs took him!
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 20, 2006 6:14 pm (#150 of 333)
A note on the name Lycoris it is part of the scientific name for spider lilies. Lycoris is part of the genus of Amaryllidaceae.
The naming of Sirius Black's mother Walburga is interesting because, there is a seventh century Saxon saint named Walburga who amongst other things was the patron saint of mad dogs. In the ninth century her relics were moved to Eisensttat, Germany and installed on May 1, 870. This date became known as Walpurgisnacht. This also marked an ancient pagan celebration to mark the beginning of summer. Saint Walburga's named ultimately became attached to the pagan festival.
There was an interview in which J.K. Rowling originally thought about calling the Death Eaters the Knights of Walpurgis.
Notes on the History of the Death Eaters  JKR made this comment during the Jeremy Paxman interview on the BBC, Thursday night, June 19, 2003, while looking at some of her notes on the books: "...here is the history of the Death Eaters and I don't know that I'll ever actually need it -- but at some point -- which were once called something different -- they were called the Knights of Walpurgis. I don't know if I'll need it. But I like knowing it. I like to keep that sort of stuff on hand." This is a play on "Walpurgis Night" -- April 30th, named for Saint Walpurga (whose feast day is the next day, 1 May, and who is the protectress against witchcraft and sorcery). On Walpurgis Night, witches are supposed to meet in the Harz mountains, especially near the highest point. Incidentally, Walpurgis Night stands opposite the calendar from Hallowe'en. -- MLW
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Bellatrix birth year being given as 1951 would make between 44 and 45 years of age at the rime of the raid on the DoM. Also it would mean her first term at Hogwarts was either the 1962 or 1963 terms. I tend toward her first term starting in September of 1963 because that would allow her to be present at Hogwarts during the first term of Sirius and the other Marauders in 1971-1972.
Mediwitch - Feb 20, 2006 6:41 pm (#151 of 333)
Wow - very cool! Even more Potterverse names - and now we can see how they are all related: Black, Bulstrode, Burke, MacMillan, Crabbe, Yaxley, Potter, Longbottom, Weasley, Crouch, Prewett, Rosier, Malfoy. Sirius wasn't exaggerating when he said all the purebloods were inter-related!
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 20, 2006 7:43 pm (#152 of 333)
Here are some more random notes on the new information about the Black Family Tree.
Septimus reminds me that there was a Roman Emperor named Septimus Severus who ruled from 193 to 211 C.E., he succeeded the Emperor Commodus who died in 192.
Phineus was the son of Agenor the King of Thrace who was a prophet, whose prophecies were accurate. His prophecies revealled so much of the will of the Greek Gods that they blinded him and sent the Harpies to torment him. Eventually, the Harpies were driven away by Jason with the aid of the Boreads, who were set to slay the Harpies but, the intervention Iris saved the Harpies who brought promise from Hera that the Gods that the Harpies would no longer accost Phineus.
Cygnus is Greek for swan the are several instances of individuals being turned into swans. Also there is the story of Leda who bore Tyndareus two children Clytemnestra and Castor. Leda also bore Zeus two children Polydeuces and Helen of Troy.
Polllux (Polydeuces) along with his brother Castor acccompanied Jason on his quest for the Golden Fleece. In Greek mythology Pollux was responsible for defeating Amycus.
In Greek mythology Cassiopeia was the wife of King Cepheus and Andromeda.
Orion, the hunter was the son of Posedion and Euryale who according to some versions of his legends was killed by Artemis using a scorpion.
I did a name search for the name Druella. There was Druella who according to Irish histories was a daughter of the Earl Godwin and a sister of Harold II, the last Saxon king of England. According to some Irish histories she married Donnchad O'Brien, King of Munster. He was the son of Brian Boru who was killed at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014.
On another note the name Marius reminded me that there was a Roman Emperor who died in 269 C.E. after a brief reign, he was the second of the Gallic Emperors.
Cedrella is Spanish for cedar.
Since, Regulus Black's year of birth is given as 1961. This tends to indicate that his first term at Hogwarts was the 1972-73 school year and his last year would have been the 1978-79 school year. This would indicate that either Regulus was killed late during his seventh year at Hogwarts or within a few months of graduating Hogwarts.
Puck - Feb 20, 2006 8:31 pm (#153 of 333)
Wow! YOu all really do your homework.
By my calcuations, Sirius parents were second cousins. (Can I say eew!)
I keep think of "Les Miserables" when I read Marius.
Ann - Feb 20, 2006 8:36 pm (#154 of 333)
Nathan, your last point is really interesting. Even if Regulus was born in early 1961 (before September), he would have left school in June of 1979. He died in 1979, a month after leaving (or trying to) the Death Eaters. So, if he didn't become a Death Eater until graduation, he would have had only four months to sign on, become disenchanted and leave. It's possible, but it makes it seem more likely that he was already a Death Eater at the time of his graduation.
It also seems likely, based on Sirius's statement in OotP that Arthur is a second cousin once removed and Molly is a cousin (first?) by marriage, that Ignatius Prewett was Molly's paternal uncle, and Septimus Weasley was Arthur's father. I'm looking at the American edition; it might be interesting to know what the British edition says, since I think the relationship terms are different. For an American, once removed would mean one generation off (and Septimus would have been the same generation as Sirius's grandparents), while a cousin by marriage would mean that you share first cousins (in this case, presumably Ignatius Prewett's kids (athough they don't seem to have had any).
A pity, actually. I was hoping there'd be some Princes in there. But in fact they're just about the only pure-blood family (aside from the Dumbledores) that isn't represented.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 20, 2006 8:53 pm (#155 of 333)
Ann, In light of what has been learned about Regulus, I think that Voldemort may have a tendency to recruit Death Eaters when they are still in school. Other possible examples in this pattern of possibly recruiting students while at Hogwarts include Draco Malfoy and Severus Snape.
Solitaire - Feb 20, 2006 10:38 pm (#156 of 333)
I agree that Snape, like Draco, may have joined the DEs when he was still at Hogwarts. I wonder, though, if that was, or is, common practice. Blaize Zabini seemed rather disbelieving at Draco's insinuation about being of service to the Dark Lord.
And you think you'll be able to do something for him?" asked Zabini scathingly. "Sixteen years old and not even fully qualified yet?"
I still suspect that Draco's early induction into the DEs was more to punish Lucius than anything else. JM2K, however ...
The giant squid - Feb 20, 2006 10:54 pm (#157 of 333)
Septimus reminds me that there was a Roman Emperor named Septimus Severus who ruled from 193 to 211 C.E.--Nathan Zimmerman
Septimus also means "the seventh". Especially interesting considering how often the number 7 shows up in these books.
I keep think of "Les Miserables" when I read Marius.--Puck
Funny, I think of Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles...
Eric Bailey - Feb 20, 2006 11:51 pm (#158 of 333)
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 21, 2006 7:04 am
Major problems with a few dates. Bella born in 1951, for example. Even if we say she was born late in the year, and started at Hogwarts in 1963, she's still done by May, 1970. Sirius and company, even if we go with the earliest possible year of birth for them (1959), aren't starting Hogwarts until the Fall 1970 term, after Bella's gone.
So, the Lestrange couple Sirius was referring to would have to be Rabastan and his future wife, giving us another female Death Eater. However, I suspect the report screwed up on dates, beause, look at the Black sisters' dad's year of birh, 1938. This would mean he fathered all three of his daughters while still a student at Hogwarts, Bella being born when he was 13.
I deleted a proposed dialogue being that it had no place on this Forum. This Forum deals with the books, not possible fanfiction. - Kip
frogface - Feb 21, 2006 2:30 am (#159 of 333)
Lol! Its no lie to say there are stories between the lines! There's probably going to be a whole load of fan-fic's based on the information from this family tree alone!
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 21, 2006 5:32 am (#160 of 333)
With Regulus' birthday as 1961 I would suspect that Sirius might well be as early as late 1959.
I picked up on that the date of birth for the Black sister's father. As all wizarding children go to Hogwarts it seems unsual. However who is to say that their mother was a minor? It is not unheard of for a thirteen year old boy to father children with an older woman. hum hum school teachers hummmm. I have wondered if not going to Hogwarts (if in fact they didn't) contributed to the Gaunt family's level of declined? Could that explain why Merope's skills were so poor and Morfin so out of touch? Two out 3 Black sister seemed not a mental balanced.
If that date of birth is an error like the movie birth date, I wonder how is it that it has gotten through to this point this late on? In movie there is whole new crew of people with varying degree of familiarity with the books and completely different agendas.
Rea - Feb 21, 2006 6:02 am (#161 of 333)
ArcturusII and Pollux had their eldest child at 14 and 13 respectively... I think it's quite odd.
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 6:42 am (#162 of 333)
Perhaps the young births are intentional? Maybe these people did not attend school, but were instead… occupied with something else?
I'm going to make a family tree with this software I have and I may put it online.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 7:08 am (#163 of 333)
Eric, Bellatrix still could have attended Hogwarts with the Marauders and have been Born in 1951 because, there is one student that we already know of who had to repeat a year, namely Marcus Flint,
Soul Search - Feb 21, 2006 8:37 am (#164 of 333)
I have a feeling we shouldn't be analyzing the auctioned family tree too much. I'm thinking it is a "first draft" which may not reflect the family history used for the books. "First Draft" would have value to a collector, whereas subsequent revisions to correct things like 13 and 14 year old parents would be of less collector interest.
I couldn't tell. Is Regulus' middle name shown?
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 8:44 am (#165 of 333)
Regulus' (Sirius' brother's) middle name is not written. Incidentally, there is another Regulus: born 1906, died 1959 (age 53), unmarried, child of Sirius Black (2) and Hester Gamp. It's a possibility, but probably unlikely.
Incidentally, there are no other R. Blacks than the two Reguluses.
Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 21, 2006 8:55 am (#166 of 333)
Nice catch Finn. But what was it about marrying a Weasley that made them rub out Cedrella? Is the muggle fascination a hereditary thing? Or what skeleton is hidden in Arthur's wardrobe?
Soul Search - Feb 21, 2006 9:04 am (#167 of 333)
It occurred to me that someone wrote the family names on the chart, and someone else (Sirius' mother) blasted them off. It was her whim that removed names, so any imagined slight might get a whole line removed.
What is the latest date we have? And the latest (likely) date blasted off? Might tell us something.
My recollection is that Andromeda is the last blasted off and Draco the latest date on the tapestry.
Draco has probably visited #12, perhaps only as a small child, but he must have been taken for Sirius' mother to see him. What, she would be a great aunt and maybe the matriarch of the Black clan.
haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 9:56 am (#168 of 333)
I thought that the names were embroidered on the tapestry.
I'm sure there is some spell that "sews", but I'm guessing Mama Black took great delight in blasting someone off, rather than using a spell to simply remove the name.
What a lovely lady!!!
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 9:57 am (#169 of 333)
An interesting point Araminta Meliflua does not appear on the tree. Although, there are many possible explanations for being included on the tree.
haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 10:14 am (#170 of 333)
The dementors here at work have TLC blocked.
Is there anywhere else that I can view the whole tree?
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 10:17 am (#171 of 333)
Haymoni, try this link. The Lexicon updated the Black Family Tree.
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haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 10:21 am (#172 of 333)
No - they block everything on The Lexicon.
It is listed as "Entertainment" - I guess I am not to be entertained at work.
The only reason I can get here is because I go through world crossing. I'm sure if they thought more about it, they'd block that too.
Now I have to wait until I get home.
Have fun without me!
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 10:31 am (#173 of 333)
I guess I am not to be entertained at work. --haymoni
Isn't work entertaining enough as it is?
Anyway, Soul Search, you are right about Draco being the latest date, and Andromeda being burn hole #7 (which would imply the latest burning).
Nathan, I also noted Araminta was not on the tree. If she is cousin to Sirius Black's mother, aka Walburga, she is the daughter of one of Walburga's parents or parent-in-law. Orion (her husband) has no scorched aunts or uncles, but Walburga's aunt Marius was a squib and #3 on the tapestry. Therefore I would guess Araminta is the daughter of Marius.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 11:00 am (#174 of 333)
Here some more of my notes on the Black Family Tree
The name Hester Gamp is interesting to me. The name Hester reminds me of the character of Hester Prynne from the Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne. As Aberforth pointed out the last name of Gamp seems to be an homage to Martin Chuzzlewhit by Charles Dickens
The name of Melania MacMillian is also interesting Melania is Greek it was an epithet given to the goddess Demeter, the Greek goddess responsible for the harvest and the growing of crops. The surname MacMillian is Gaelic and it means the the son of the bald or tonsured one. The MacMillian's clan motto is I learn to succor the unfortunate.
Lysandra Yaxley. The name of Lysandra is the feminine form of Lysander. Lysandra was the name of a daughter of King Ptolemy I, she married Alexander V, King of Macedonia. Her surname of Yaxley is also the name of a village in England.
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 11:18 am (#175 of 333)
Also Lysander is the name of a Shakespeare character in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Rea - Feb 21, 2006 11:27 am (#176 of 333)
Melania means "black" in ancient greek... what a perfect name to enter in Black's family!
Hester looks like "Esther", like the Queen in the bible, that in hebrew means "hidden" or could alternative mean "star", from ancient Persian. Her true name was Adassa (sorry, but I can translitterate hebrew only in this "italian" way), but she changed it when she got married with the persian King Achashverosh (again!)in order to keep her religion secret. Maybe "our" Hesther has a secret too...
Eric Bailey - Feb 21, 2006 11:44 am (#177 of 333)
Well, I'm thinking the dates are screwed up, as fun a thought of a Slytherin nursery with the young Black sisters is. I also figure that JKR meant for the Lestrange "married couple" to be the one we're familiar with, so Bella's birth year has to be a mistake.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 11:46 am (#178 of 333)
Eric, those dates are not necessarily mistakes. I was considering the young age of Cygnus Black at the time of Bellatrix's birth and Pollux Black's age at the time of Walburga's birth. Those instances reminded me that there were several cases in the history of the English monarchy when individuals became parents at a young age.
Eric Bailey - Feb 21, 2006 11:53 am (#179 of 333)
Well, if he was 13 when she was born, he was 12 when he knocked up Druella. While I suppose it's technically possible, it seems unlikely. I also can't picture teen pregnancy to be a subject in the books, since it hasn't, yet.
Caius Iulius - Feb 21, 2006 12:28 pm (#180 of 333)
Steve of Ravenclaw - Feb 21, 2006 12:52 pm (#181 of 333)
I am wondering whether or not the 1938 year of Cygnus' birth is an error and should actually read 1928. It would be more in line with the year of birth of his elder sister (Walburga, who according to this was born 1925). Then again, I wouldn't put it past the Blacks to try this sort of thing, based on the descriptions we've heard...
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 1:42 pm (#182 of 333)
Haymoni, FinnBV developed a web that gives the Black Family tree in an alternative format that you should be able to view.
haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 1:45 pm (#183 of 333)
I tried Finn's.
I guess I just have to wait until I get home.
I hate not knowing things!!!!
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 1:49 pm (#184 of 333)
Haymoni, I didn't know my school was considered entertainment for your work! LOL. In the past ten minutes I've been fooling around with the name of "blackfamily" so you may want to check again at "blackfam." Unless, of course, the entire site was blocked, in which case, patience is a virtue.
haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 1:51 pm (#185 of 333)
Sorry, Finn - I thought he meant the link that was listed in this thread.
Was that in the Chat thread or in the Questions to the Hosts?
Edit - I was able to get to your website, Finn.
Since I can't get to TLC to read the actual article, I had thought there was a photo of the whole tree. My apologies.
Nice job Aberforth on getting all the info together.
Do we know won the bidding yet?
Finn BV - Feb 21, 2006 2:04 pm (#186 of 333)
Glad you could get there Haymoni. No problemo.
The Lexicon has their rendering of the whole tree, but no photo of the actual thing. I don't think the bidding's been won yet.
Holly T. - Feb 21, 2006 2:10 pm (#187 of 333)
I just love all of the names she uses! So creative.
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 21, 2006 2:35 pm (#188 of 333)
Just so everyone knows, Lycoris is a girl's name. It has Greek origins and means Twilight. I'm not sure how important this is as we already know, Jo likes to use names she likes the sound of.
Anyway, I've put all the details into my genealogy program and I'm none the wiser for it!
dizzy lizzy - Feb 21, 2006 3:47 pm (#189 of 333)
I painstakingly wrote the family tree out on a large piece of paper as my printer refused to print it. I had no idea that the dates and ages are slightly skew whiff. **goes and finds calculator to check** But remember JKR has admitted that maths is not her strong point .
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 4:03 pm (#190 of 333)
In my notes earlier I forgot to mention that Isla is Spanish for island.
Choices - Feb 21, 2006 5:46 pm (#191 of 333)
Lycoris is a girl's name.
....and doesn't it sound like "licorice" - usually a black candy.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 21, 2006 7:59 pm (#192 of 333)
I wonder whether Arabella Figg and Argus Filch are in some way connected to the Blacks?
hawick girl - Feb 21, 2006 8:53 pm (#193 of 333)
We noticed that the last birth year listed is for Draco in 1980, but there are dates that are later than that. They are death years. I have them listed:
In the Third Generation: Pollux-1990, Arcturus II-1991, Cassiopeia-1992.
In the Fourth Generation: Walburga-1985, Lucretia-1992, Cygnus-1992.
I wonder how the Tapestry knew when to fill in the death years? Obviously it writes them in itself, because of the later dates including the mistress of the house's death. I'd like to know the story.
I think that many of the dates are wonky. For example, Arcturus II (who lived quite long--for a Black anyway) was 14 when Lucretia was born, but Orion was born when he was 28, both children of Melania. I think that Lucretia should be born in 1925. The other odd date is Pollux. He was 13 when Walburga was born and 26 when Cygnus was born, all three (including Alphard) were children of Irma.
Did I read that right and Sirius (First generation) died when he was 8? I wonder what the story there is?
I can't remember, how did Orion (Sirius' dad) die? From grief? A mad bludger? Dragon Pox? I can't quite recall. I think that it is interesting that he and Regulus both stepped from this mortal coil in the same year.
That is all for now. I have to work early tomorrow, and I'm tired, so bye-bye. I'm going to make like a shepard and get the flock outta here.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 22, 2006 12:10 am (#194 of 333)
Hawick Girl, I also noticed that according to the Black Family Tree both Regulus and his father Orion died in 1979. It has been speculated that the R.A.B. who stole the locket Horcrux is in fact Regulus Black, and that shortly thereafter he perished. If Regulus is indeed R.A.B. could his father Orion's death be related in some way to the death of Regulus?
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 22, 2006 3:42 am (#195 of 333)
Ooh! Ooh! Juicy News!
The tree sold for £30,000 and was bought by Harry Potter, he might be able to make use of it in his quest. Sorry, did I say Harry Potter? I meant to say Daniel Radcliffe.
Good for him - I'm glad it went to someone it has immense meaning for!
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 22, 2006 5:19 am (#196 of 333)
Ohhh, I wonder if he will display it?
frogface - Feb 22, 2006 5:43 am (#197 of 333)
Maybe he'll let them use it in the film.
Daisy Pennifold - Feb 22, 2006 6:32 am (#198 of 333)
That's exciting news! I gave a heads up to the Mugglenet people (crediting you with the tip). I hope that's OK!
In response to a previous post, I don't think that Araminta Meliflua could be a descendant of a burnt-off family member, because their descendants aren't shown, and when Sirius was showing Harry the tapestry, I'm pretty sure that he read her name from the tapestry itself.
haymoni - Feb 22, 2006 9:30 am (#199 of 333)
How cool is that???? Daniel Radcliffe buying the Tree.
I had suggested Steven King, but this is good too!!!
Flo - Feb 22, 2006 1:08 pm (#200 of 333)
I understand there is a debate on whether the birthdate mentioned for Bellatrix (1951) is true. If I remember correctly the Slughorn's memory passage in HBP,Slughorn talks to Lestrange at one moment. That means that Lestrange is of the same generation as Tom Riddle. Since we know that Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts fifty years ago and was then aged around 16 (cf. Chamber of Secrets), one can assume that Lestrange was also around 16 years old 50 years before Harry's second year (ie 50 years before the 1990s). We could then assume that he was 16 in the 1940s, and that he was thus born sometime between 1925 and 1930.
That means that he married a woman around 20 years younger than him...
I find that weird. I have alwyas pictured the Lestrange couple as having roughly the same age
Am I completely wrong ?
haymoni - Feb 22, 2006 1:10 pm (#201 of 333)
I thought that was their dad.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 22, 2006 1:18 pm (#202 of 333)
Haymoni, I agree I tend to think that the Lestrange mentioned as being in school with Voldemort and the Lestranges who were part of the gang of Skytherins that included Avery, Rosier, Wilkes, and Severus Snape.
Flo - Feb 22, 2006 1:20 pm (#203 of 333)
OK, thanks Haymoni
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 22, 2006 2:52 pm (#204 of 333)
Daisy Pennifold: Of course it's ok - it's my personal contribution to world news and I'm glad to be able to pass it on to my closest 'Potty' friends!
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 22, 2006 5:40 pm (#205 of 333)
According to the tree Isla Black was disowned for marrying Bob Hitchens.
The name Bob is sometimes a nickname for the name Robert. When I think of the name Robert I am reminded of Robert I the Bruce who was King of Scotland from 1306 to 1329 and reestablished the independence of Scotland at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.
The name of Isla Black reminds me of the Black Isle of Scotland and in terms of Harry Potter Azkaban.
Weeny Owl - Feb 22, 2006 8:45 pm (#206 of 333)
All I can say is that if my parents had named me Walburga I'd probably be as bad-tempered as Sirius's mother was.
Orion and Walburga... what did they use for pet names? Orry and Wally? Or and Wal? Rion and Burga? Oy.
Chemyst - Feb 23, 2006 5:47 am (#207 of 333)
Ooh! Ooh! Juicy News!
The tree sold for £30,000 and was bought by Harry Potter, he might be able to make use of it in his quest. Sorry, did I say Harry Potter? I meant to say Daniel Radcliffe. - Aurora
FYI - £30,000 = 52,314.6 US Dollar = 43,944.5 Euro = 70,949.5 Australian Dollar = 60,084.9 Canadian Dollar
Aurora Gubbins - Feb 23, 2006 10:14 am (#208 of 333)
How many galleons is that?
azi - Feb 23, 2006 10:42 am (#209 of 333)
Well, it's £5 to roughly one Galleon so 30/5 is 6, therefore 6000 Galleons! **Hoping she's done the maths right**
dizzy lizzy - Feb 23, 2006 1:56 pm (#210 of 333)
Thanks for the conversions Chemyst. I did the conversions to Australian Dollars yesterday and I was flabbergasted to see the Black Family Tree sold for more than what my house is worth .
I finally managed to print a copy of the family tree that is on the lexicons, and Finns little website is great! I keep losing the link Finn, with all the names there like they should be. I can't wait to see if Daniel will release an image for public consumption.
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 25, 2006 11:41 am (#211 of 333)
According to the Black Family Tree Walburga Black was born in 1925 and Orion Black was born in 1929.
These years of birth would place Walburga Black's first year at Hogwarts either in the 1936-37 school year or the 1937-1938 school years, and her last year was either the 1942-43 school term or the 1943-44 school term.
Orion Black was born in 1929 this means his first term at Hogwarts was either the 1940-41 school year or 1941-1942 school year. This would imply that his seventh and last year Hogwarts was wither the 1946-47 school year or 1947-48.
These dates would make them contemporaries of Minerva McGonagall, Tom Riddle, Hagrid, Myrtle, and possibly Augusta Longbottom.
Also, since, both Black's were in Slytherin House both probably would have had contact with Tom Riddle. Although, I doubt that they were intimate with him because, in OotP Sirius says neither of his parents were Death Eaters, but, it is possible that they were aware of what Tom Riddle was capable of because, both Walburga and Orion would have been present at Hogwarts during the time of opening of the CoS and Hagrid's expulsion.
Solitaire - Feb 25, 2006 2:13 pm (#212 of 333)
But would they have known that it was Riddle who really opened the Chamber? Surely he'd have kept that juicy little piece of information to himself. Gloating about it, even among fellow Slytherins, could have led to his own expulsion ... and that was the last thing he wanted. Isn't it true that Dippet's intimation that Hogwarts might be closed due to Myrtle's death is the only reason Riddle sealed the Chamber once again?
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 25, 2006 3:10 pm (#213 of 333)
Solitaire, that is true I do not disagree. I meant to assert only that they may have been suspsicious of him during that time frame because, being in Slytherin House would have allowed Orion and Walburga to view his actions and to observe his manner and actions with a closer scrutiny than most non-Slytherins and most faculty.
Solitaire - Feb 25, 2006 3:58 pm (#214 of 333)
In OotP, when Sirius is showing Harry the Tapestry, he says the following of his parents ...
... they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things … they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.
I'm betting that Voldemort kept his darker, more evil tendencies under wraps when he was at Hogwarts. The above quote certainly makes me suspect that the senior Blacks supported Voldemort. It is possible--given their hatred of Muggles and Muggle-borns--that they only pulled back after they realized Voldemort had no problems killing his own people if he needed to do so to realize his goals.
Puck - Feb 27, 2006 11:07 am (#215 of 333)
Good for Daniel Radcliffe. Must be nice to be a teen with the money to buy such things!
MacMillian is also a familar name; it's Ernie's surname. I imagine this is just a portion of the tree that filled the tapestry.
Solitaire - Feb 27, 2006 12:25 pm (#216 of 333)
If Dorea and Charlus Potter were Harry's grandparents--or even James's aunt and uncle--I can't help wondering why Sirius didn't point it out when he showed Harry the tapestry. Has this bugged anyone else?
Caius Iulius - Feb 27, 2006 12:30 pm (#217 of 333)
Solitaire, as I understood "The House of Black" chapter in OotP, Sirius was more contemplating about family members he knew himself, and his own position in the family, so it didn't strike me as odd at the time. However, you might be right, as Sirius knew James's parents well and liked them very much. He could have pointed them out as more decent relatives. But then again, Dorea and Charlus have not been burnt away from the tapestry.
Solitaire - Feb 27, 2006 2:10 pm (#218 of 333)
We know that James's parents seemed to like Sirius. Is this a hint that Dorea and Charlus may not be James's parents? Surely Mrs. Black would not like anyone who gave shelter to Sirius.
Eric Bailey - Feb 27, 2006 2:24 pm (#219 of 333)
Well, that's assuming she had any idea where Sirius went.
Holly T. - Feb 27, 2006 3:37 pm (#220 of 333)
One of the uncles was burned off for giving money to Sirius when he ran away, so I would think letting Sirius stay with them would have been grounds for being blasted off the tapestry.
Kenneth Hynes - Feb 28, 2006 12:25 pm (#221 of 333)
Why else would she include the name potter if they warnt related to Harry, That would be far worse than the evans fiasco. they probably are not james parents, Posibly an anut and uncle?
Solitaire - Feb 28, 2006 12:44 pm (#222 of 333)
I have suggested that a few times, Kenneth. The time frame and one son do seem to fit James's folks, though ... although I suppose James could have had an aunt and uncle with one son. But the whole thing still begs the question ... why didn't Sirius mention those Potters, if they were in any way related to Harry ... even if they were dead? It would have served to establish a familial link between Harry and Sirius, wouldn't it?
Is it possible that this family tree is an early draft and has since been changed?
bigearl - Feb 28, 2006 1:50 pm (#223 of 333)
The Potters on the Tree almost have to be Harry's Grandparents. Mrs. Black just didn't know where Sirius went off to. So the names never got blasted off.
I think this information will come out when Harry visits Godric's Hollow or #12 GP.
I was under the impression that JKR drew the Family Tree very recently for this specific event, so the information should be up to date.
Finn BV - Feb 28, 2006 2:48 pm (#224 of 333)
Oh, I thought she has had it for a while, though the drawing is new. I don't think she would just make up some names just for this event. I'm pretty sure she had planned it out since the beginning, or at least since 2002, when she was writing OoP.
Ann - Feb 28, 2006 9:32 pm (#225 of 333)
I agree that the Potters on the tree have to be Harry's parents. She's said there's nothing weird about their deaths, and if his father had had a lot of cousins, or even a brother, Harry would probably not be without relatives as he is. Likewise, it's pretty clear that Charis Black and Caspar Crouch are Bartimius Crouch's parents, and Barty's grandparents. When Barty dies, Dumbledore tells Fudge that he's the last of an ancient pureblood family, so, like Harry, he probably doesn't have any relatives.
Aurora Gubbins - Mar 1, 2006 2:10 am (#226 of 333)
...for he had seen not only himself in the mirror, but a whole crowd of people standing right behind him....Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobbly knees... PS, ch12.
I think the knobbly kneed man is Charlus, and he's Harry's great grandfather.
Later on in the same chapter "And there were his mother and father smiling at him again, and one of his grandfathers nodding happily."
Why mention an old man twice unless he was so important? I think he must be Charlus and he's going to be very important in book 7.
Soul Search - Mar 1, 2006 4:57 am (#227 of 333)
A question that has come up on other topics is why Voldemort specifically went after the Potters. We know they had defied him three times, before Godric's Hollow, and then he went after them, with the intention of using Harry's death to make a horcrux. Voldemort seemed to have a particular hate for the Potters (more than the Longbottoms.) There have been some good ideas suggested, here and there, but I am wondering if there might be something else, related to family tree.
Were there any Potters at Hogwarts when Tom Riddle was there?
Did Dumbledore, again, fail to tell Harry about an important relationship between Voldemort and Harry's family?
I am thinking of something along the lines of James and his hate for Snape. Or maybe Harry and Draco. A similar relationship between a Potter and Tom Riddle could account for a lot.
For example, why were James, Lily, Sirius, and Pettigrew all in the original Order; they would have been quite young, at that time. Dumbledore would have had to accept them all. Why? Were there some older Potters in the Order, then?
wingardio leviosa - Mar 1, 2006 9:28 am (#228 of 333)
Hi all, that's my first.
First, I've been trying to send a mistake report to HPL, but the email [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is still not functional, it bounced back n times, so I thought to post it:
1 - Lucretia : the original report (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/whats_new.html) as well as the BF page gives 1915 as birth date while the BFT pic gives 1925. The latter date, however, is more "consistent" with her father Arcturus' birth date (1901) and her brother Orion's birth date, too (1929). Now one of the two dates is wrong - BUT WHICH? Note that when reading someone else's handwriting it is possible to mistakenly read a figure. As well, it is possible to write it wrongly...
2 - same MIGHT apply to Walburga's birth date : on BFT it is 1925 - when her father Pollux was 13 - and 13 years before her oldes brother Cygnus. That might be 1935.
3 - the BFT gives Regulus dead in 1979, while all HPL pages where he appears list him for dead in 1980. This might be important ...
4 - Page [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] reports Born: 1961? Died: 1980 (according to Lupin, he only managed to live a few days after "deserting" the Death Eaters --HBP6) Apart from the death date - it was Sirius talking about him, and that was in OotP6.
Now, some wild speculations. What if RAB would be two people? OK, the note author talks as "I", but maybe he's the one survivor (and he knows he's about to die as well) this makes it possible several couples. I shall number Black generations - first is the uppermost (that of Phineas N.)
First pair: Arcturus (2nd gen.) - Regulus (3rd gen.) They both die in the same year (1959) and that should be after Hepziba's death ...
2nd pair: Arcturus (3rd gen.) - Regulus (3rd gen.) Highly improbable
3rd pair: Arcturus (3rd gen.) - Regulus (5th gen.) Highly improbable, even if the grandfather-nephew sticks
4th pair: Alphard (4th gen) - Regulus (5th gen.) This is the one most probable; they die with only 2-3 years difference while LV is in power (this does not hold for Arcturus 3rd gen.) and both are "highly suspect"; they may have done it as HP+DD, as R. was young at the time; Alphard then dies for drinking the potion, R. remains alive, gets the H., writes the note and goes home where he stores it while seeking a way to destroy it (his home is one of the safest places known).
What do you think?
Aurora Gubbins - Mar 1, 2006 12:59 pm (#229 of 333)
I think we'll get our definitive copy of the family tree when the DVD of OOTP comes out. Boo! Hoo!
Finn BV - Mar 1, 2006 2:24 pm (#230 of 333)
wingario leviosa, there is a thread set up on the forum for the type of thing you are trying to do at # Corrections or Questions to the Lexicon.
I don't have time at the moment to write what I'd like to say about RAB and the possible year mistakes, but in HBP, it is Lupin in Chapter 6 who tells Harry that Regulus only managed a few days after deserting the DEs. (I believe Sirius says a similar thing in OoP, but it is clearer in HBP.) It should probably be corrected in the Lexicon pages to reflect the 1979 date.
wingardio leviosa - Mar 1, 2006 11:34 pm (#231 of 333)
Hi Finn, sorry I did not see the proper thread for my first part, I just run searches about names and it happened that Walburga and all topics related to the tree were mentioned mostly in this thread. Meanwhile it seems that my email got through finally... and OK, you're right about Lupin's reference, so I'll send HPL a self-correction
sandpiper - Apr 10, 2006 11:50 pm (#232 of 333)
Edited by Apr 11, 2006 12:52 am
Hello guys. I read this thread yesterday because I was interested in the birth year for Bellatrix and its implications for the school year of Snape, the marauders et al. A couple of people commented on the fact that with that birthday Bella's last possible school year would be 69-70, and that she was supposed to be at school at least partly the same time as Snape. People tried to explain this away by suggestions that maybe she missed a year, or the date was wrong. I have looked up the Lexicon pages of Snape, which still mainly suggest a birthday of Jan 1960, never mind 58 which would be necessary for him to be at school during Bella's last year.
The thing is, I have not seen any of the dating arguments which definitively rule out 1958 as birth year for Snape, and that therefore this date could be taken exactly at face value in determining the correct school year for this group. What am I missing?
Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 9:41 am (#233 of 333)
Snape is in the same year as the Marauders, correct? Don't we know this from the Pensieve scene in OotP ... where he was in the same final (or was it an OWL exam?) as the Marauders? Wouldn't this kind of limit his birth year to sometime in '59 or '60?
sandpiper - Apr 11, 2006 10:56 am (#234 of 333)
Edited by Apr 11, 2006 12:59 pm
yes, snape is in the same year as the marauders. But while people agree it is the same year, it is not certain which year it is. The actual day of Snape's birthday was given by JKR as 9 Jan, so it can be a bit easier to talk in terms of his actual year of birth, which can be pinned down to correspond to a particular year for starting Hogwarts. His birth year had been held to be 1960, but that view has been slipping to 1959, and this information would on the face of it rule out that year as being too late also. If that is the case, then the marauders dates are also a year too late.
Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 11:36 am (#235 of 333)
Edited Apr 11, 2006 1:21 pm
I thought the Marauders entered Hogwarts in '71. Wasn't Remus a prefect in the years '75-'78? If that is correct, his first year would have had to be '71, wouldn't it? If Remus's first year was '71, wouldn't that make Snape's first year '71?
sandpiper - Apr 11, 2006 12:07 pm (#236 of 333)
Where did you get that information? As far as I know Remus never says which year he was prefect in, nor does anyone else. I suspect your information on when he was a prefect is taken from an assumption of which year he started school in, hence which year he must have been prefect. As far as I know there are only 3 or 4 clues to dating. Sirius being 'about 22' when locked up on Azkaban, JKR saying Snape was 35 or 36 after publication of GOF, Harry watching the marauders taking exams 'more than 20 years ago', and now Bella's age, given that she was at school with Snape.
Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 12:28 pm (#237 of 333)
I found it on the Lexicon. Check the link to Remus and look down under Hogwarts/School awards, etc. I did check the chapter given, though, and I can't find years, so maybe it is just a guess ... or perhaps there is some other source for it.
sandpiper - Apr 11, 2006 12:47 pm (#238 of 333)
Edited by Apr 11, 2006 2:44 pm
yes, I know what Lexicon say and I have read what they explain about dating characters, which is what I have summarised here. On their time lines pages it explains in more detail how the dating is derived. The books give some details about things happening in certain years, but there are very few links which pin down which calendar year relates to their first, second, etc. year at Hogwarts. At least as far as I have been able to find, lexicon do not post any dating references apart from those I gave. Unless they have information they are not telling (like JKR gave them a private hint), their dates are almost certainly wrong. They are working on Snape born 1960, starts school 71, and there now seem to be two pieces of evidence saying this particular year is too late, and two others which do not make it first choice.
sandpiper - Apr 13, 2006 1:59 am (#239 of 333)
Having looked a little more, I found this page: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It lists the marauders, snape, lily starting school 1970 rather than 71, and carries a 2003 copyright tag. Did HPL start out thinking the correct school year was 1970, then changed it to 71?
Solitaire - Apr 13, 2006 9:32 am (#240 of 333)
Sandpiper, I think a lot of things continue to be refined and clarified as the Keepers of the Lexicon gain more information. Each book reveals a bit more about some of the characters. Each time Jo gives us a fix on the birth year or years of attendance at Hogwarts of one character, it may reveal more specific information about one or more of the other characters. Even when Jo reveals a specific birth month and day of a character via a "Happy Birthday," it can sometimes help fix the birth year. JM2K on the subject ...
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