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Log inAlchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I)
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 601 to 625)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:56 am
zelmia - Oct 20, 2004 9:16 pm (#601 of 1121)
I think it's more to do with the caduceus, the "two snakes fighting" that Hermes was able to separate and then unite. "But in essence divided." This was no idle muttering. I think Dumbledore was trying to tell us something and I think it's to do with Nagini. I also think there is a siginifance in her very name, which is so very similar to the Nagas of India - the snake spirits who can represent either Good or Evil (as Hollywand just said).
I have been trying to identify this connection for some time but I'm afraid my knowledge of alchemical symbolism is just too limited to be very articulate. For example, (I think I've asked this before) if the Snake is usually represenative of the Perfected process, then why should it be assosciated with Voldemort? Has he attained the Stone in some way, some Stone that only he would seek to begin with? I am still confused about this....
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Upulwan - Oct 21, 2004 2:35 am (#602 of 1121)
Just to add my two knuts' worth on the topic of Nagini, (and this is just what I remember from Buddhist literature classes way back, not from any thorough, recent research, so please pardon any blunders), while Naga in Sanskrit means snake, the suffix 'ini' denotes the female gender. In Indian mythology, the Naga were a people, able to govern themselves and communicate, integral to any story/myth/history concerning humans, highly respected in the multiple worlds featured in these narratives. Much closer to deity than animal, and if you're waging war on the neighbouring kingdom, you'd do well to have the Nagas on your side.
Unlike in western narratives where the foremost connection made with snakes is 'evil' or even the fall from Eden, in Indian mythology, specially in Buddhist narratives, they are mainly guardian figures. (That of course has unavoidable resonances with the basilisk and Slytherin's Chamber of Secrets.) Hence you'll find snake figurines at entrances to temples, shrines etc. (again, connects with the entrance to the Chamber, with the serpent etched on the tap)
Nagas are specially prominent in Buddhist literature, and in one of the most well-known stories the Naga king Muchalinda (a massive creature, several times bigger than a human) coiled his body around the Buddha and arched his massive head over the meditating figure to shelter and protect him for seven days from a deluge. I shudder to make the connection, but Nagini does seem like a protector to Voldemort, doesn't she?
Another layer in this guardian metaphor is that the world of the Naga was said to be in the bowels of the earth, where precious stones were to be found, and the Nagas are often depicted as guardians of precious rubies and sapphires, as jewel-bearers, protecting the stones from the overarching greed of humans. When a Buddhist 'stupa' (the dome like structure better known as 'pagoda' in Eastern Asia) is built, its crest, in tradition, is topped by a precious stone, the glow of which can be glimpsed for many miles around, and it is usually the reigning Naga king who presents this jewel.
The female snakes, or the Naginis, were known for their mesmerising music and sinuous dances which work like enchantments.
On the other side of the coin of course, you have the snake-charmers, men who, by playing a flute, claim to be able to make tame snakes dance, a very common career in South Asia. I have heard that the way this works is through the snake imitating the movement of the charmer's raised knee, rather than any ability to 'move' to the music! In fact, if you ever see a snake charmer at work, squatting with one knee, you'll see how his other, raised knee moves to a rhythm. Whenever I read the bit about Nagini and Voldemort, that's what comes to my mind, Voldemort the snake-charmer, complete with a turban and all! He does seem to have her 'charmed' to do his bidding, and he also has the Death Eaters, (snakes themselves in the 'evil' sense), 'charmed', even if by fear, to do his bidding.
Anyway, hope my yarn is of some use! JKR has drawn from a wealth of symbolic structures, so unbelievably extensive and intertwined, that I won't bat an eyelid to find that a bit of Indian mythology has seeped into the brew (or deliberately added).
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Elanor - Oct 21, 2004 11:53 am (#603 of 1121)
Great thought everyone! Thank you so much for sharing those informations with us Upulwan, that is brilliant! I love the image of Voldemort as a snake-charmer!
Voldemort has indeed a very special relation with snakes since he is a parcelmouth and Harry has the same connection with them. If we think about it, the first time Jo shows us that Harry is "special" is at the zoo when he speaks and set the snake free. I always thought it might be an image of Harry's desire to be set free too.
The snake symbol is interesting because it is, above all, a very ambivalent one. The snake symbol is, by itself, a pair of opposites because it puts together the values of night and day, good and evil, life and death, male and female... It is one and several at the same time. Voldemort is ambivalent too because he used to be Tom Riddle, the kid of the orphanage, before becoming the monster that we know.
As you said so well Upulwan and Hollywand, the snake is not an evil symbol most of the time. Voldemort can't have attained the Philosopher's stone because he doesn't understand its true meaning. But that doesn't mean that he is not on the way of a perfected process, but not as he imagines it. I think that Voldemort will live a kind of "ouroboros" at the end: Harry will make him realize his own emptiness which will be his doom. In that way, he will "bite his own tail".
BTW, Hollywand I loved what you wrote about Harry's gaze! You're certainly onto something here. Lily's green eyes and the snakes: I love that!
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Hollywand - Oct 21, 2004 5:38 pm (#604 of 1121)
thanks to everyone for the tremendous comments! I love this thread! It's such a pleasure to read.
Zelmia, I wanted to reply to your comments on alchemy and feeling as if you don't understand the logic of the theory, and just say that I think you are doing a great job of following and contributing to the discussion. Alchemical theories are very convoluted, and don't really follow the sort of scientifically reproduceable empiricism that is the hallmark of Western science. Empirical experiments are really Newton's legacy--a quote from Sir Issac: "Aristotle is my friend. Plato is my friend. But my best friend is truth." Newton was fantastic at positing experiments to prove his theories, as alchemists were not. I can site some other great scientics before Newton, such as Gallileo and Kepler, who also were amazing empiricists, but their work was adumbrated by the limitations of the times.
All this to say that I think perhaps you (Zelmia) may find a useful analogy to alchemical philosophy in Eastern philosophies such as the IChing. The Tao Te Ching teaches that the nadir changes to the zenith, that flowering is the beginning of decline; alchemy gets at those sorts of mysteries at its finest. This is how Voldemort may represent the nadir which is a complete decline, decrease and now changes to the gradual ascent. I hope that's of some help (possibly not).
*Elanor, your wonderful details about the snakes and the female caused me to wonder if Lily could somehow be connected with a Gorgon like figure. If Voldemort meets the Gorgon's gaze, this would perhaps transform him into vapor; if he had removed his essence? Perhaps Harry's parselmouth is not a gift from Voldemort, but a gift from his Gorgon like mother Lily. After all, Harry can speak to the Boa Constrictor before he has any really singnificant magical training. Hmmm. A wild consideration, Lily as Gorgon, but Rowling's background is in the Classics, so perhaps....
Upulwan, Just a note to say how wonderful your summary of the positive aspects of the snake in Indian culture. I am reminded of Japanese Shinto culture, a nature-based culture, where snakes are symbols of gain and prosperity, gaining treasure, as treasure is from the earth.
Ancient Egyptian culture, nature based, buried treasure culture if there ever was one, and the cobra, horned viper such a symbol of royal power, that which issues from the earth as a rebirthing symbol.
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Elanor - Oct 22, 2004 12:35 pm (#605 of 1121)
Great thoughts Hollywand! When I read your post, it reminded me the old debate about nature versus nurture in a child's education. In Harry's case, we should say that Parseltongue may be "nature", that is to say a gift the child has without having ever practiced it, which is what happened when he spoke to the Boa at the Zoo. Quidditch may be another innate gift. But other talents he has had to be practiced to become efficient which was the case of the patronus for example. This makes me wonder what other still hidden gifts he has...
I agree too with what you said concerning alchemy. It is difficult for us to understand it because we broaching it with our very rational minds. Here we say "Cartesian" for that because it came from Descartes' theories. But alchemists didn't think like that. For example, if we consider the number 2: I guess that Descartes would have said it is 1+1, 2+0 and 0+2, but an alchemist would have said that 2 (considered as Sulphur and Mercury) could also mean 1 (in the philosopher's stone), 3 (with the salt element) and 4 (as an image of the 4 elements)... This thought process is unfamiliar to us now but that doesn't mean it is meaningless.
Which is funny is the story of the word Hermetic. At the beginning, it was a reference to Hermes: alchemists were Hermetists, Hermes' disciples. But it changed because, at a certain time of the work, they needed to have an airtight container, which was very difficult to obtain then. The word came then in the ordinary language and hermetism then meant airtight (or watertight). As their studies were difficult to understand, "hermetic" also meant soon "obscure". But in fact, a hermetic theory is just a theory which is based on a hidden principle of wisdom a man has to find out through a spiritual work.
LOL! I just reread myself and thought what I wrote was indeed obscure too! Maybe an example would be clearer:
They thought that the "centre" of man was the Heart,and it was reflected in the Lion, Gold and the Sun symbols (here is the mirror image again). But the man can't transmute metals into gold if he has not transmuted his heart before. The path of heart makes him a Lion, a king, and makes him turning towards the sun light, that is to say the "centre" of our planetary system. This is called the hermetic circle. This is the ouroboros symbol too and the saying "Hen ta panat": the "one-is-everything" at the same time (un-toutes-les-choses).
What is the connection with HP then? I think that is very important because we know that "heart" will be Harry's best weapon in the future, that "heart" is the most protected room of the MoM, that solar and lion symbols are always bound to Harry. I've just realized that even his glasses are a solar symbol because they are round and the circle means sun in alchemy! In HP too all those symbols are mixed and "answer" to each other, creating a wonderful symbolical universe. From the beginning of the series those symbols showed us the path: the path of the heart Harry has to follow. And Jo is a genius.
Sorry for the length! I had very theoretical musings tonight, please forgive me if it was boring.
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Hollywand - Oct 22, 2004 6:16 pm (#606 of 1121)
A tremendously enjoyable post, Elanor. A wonderful connection with Harry's glasses as a sun symbol! I am also amazed at the interlinked symbolism in the books---and to think, I would not have connected a fraction of these symbols without the contributions on this thread. It's a great gift!
To muse on your final paragraph, Elanor, I think you are intuitively getting at the locked door in the Department of Mysteries. Something to do with what lies in the heart. The DA was shown lots of abstracted concepts connected with the macrocosmos---time, weather, thoughts, the veil between life and death. Perhaps behind the door lies the mystery of the fullness of Harry's heart, in contrast to Voldemort's empty heart. You said it much more eloquently than I have, Elanor: a sort of gateway connecting the macrocosmos to the microcosmos. What a wonderful possibility!
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zelmia - Oct 22, 2004 8:01 pm (#607 of 1121)
Hollywand, I appreciate your remarks that were addressed to me very much. Thank you. And I hope that others who feel as I do will take heart from them as well and feel free to contribute, as I have. I too absolutely love this thread and have learned so much from everyone!
Upulwan (interesting name), thank you for your explanation on the Naga/Nagini. I think everyone can get a bit of insight from it. In fact, in reading your post, my mind went immediately to the rebirthing scene in GF, when Nagini has wrapped herself around the tombstone where Harry has been tied; continually circling him. Wouldn't it be interesting if she was actually "guarding" Harry at that point, but neither Harry nor Voldemort (nor any of us) knew it?
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Elanor - Oct 22, 2004 11:14 pm (#608 of 1121)
Hello everyone and thank you *blushing*! Hollywand, you're right: connections between macrocosm and microcosm are really something to look into closely. I will work on it this afternoon.
Zelmia: great connection with Nagini maybe "guarding" Harry in the graveyard! You always have great ideas and I love to hear them.
I do agree with you both: this thread is a real gift! I've learnt so much here too. What is amazing is how everyone's ideas make the whole discussion going forward. So, everyone, don't be shy! We would love to hear your ideas!
Fall holidays are just starting here. I'm so happy because that means that I will have more time for doing researches for that thread! Yeah! Weird am I? No, just a potty...
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Elanor - Oct 24, 2004 8:36 am (#609 of 1121)
I've searched a little more about the relation between the macrocosm and the microcosm which was so important for the alchemists. As we already said, they believed that the universe was organized in concentric spheres, from the planet to men, from men to minerals. Each planet was connected with a metal, a human organ and a constellation. Each sphere acts on the others and the lightning, or an rainbow, connects the macrocosm to the microcosm. If we apply this symbol to Harry's scar, that means that what happens to him, in a way, happens to the whole wizarding world. We could even say that he is the bound between the macrocosm (the magic) and the microcosm (the wizarding community) too. Voldemort has troubled the order of things in the Magical world: hence the prophetcy and Harry's mission. As said DD: "I rather thought... you had enough responsability to be going on with". Indeed.
I've searched a little about the circle symbol too. The circle means perfection first. In alchemy, it means gold and sun and refers to the ouroboros symbol. But, in magical rites, circles were often used to keep away evil spirits. The magician has to stay inside the circle otherwise he will be in great danger. It reminds me what Zelmia said about Nagini "drawing" circles around Harry in the graveyard: it could be another clue that she's trying to protect him by marking out a circle around him?
In the same chapter, we find the "circle" created by the connection between Harry's and Voldemort's wands: they are indeed both "protected" from what is outside till they stay inside the circle. Harry has to break it and then, he is in great danger again till he grabs the cup. Symbolically, it could be a magical circle, drawn by Fawkes, to protect Harry.
If I remember well, there is a circular room in the Department of mysteries in the MoM: till Harry and the others remain inside this circle, they are safe but, from the moment they open the different doors, they are in great danger... In the same way, just after his rebirth, Voldemort is safe inside the circle made by his DE and when he leaves it, to attack Harry, he isn't anymore. It can't be a coincidence. What do you think?
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Hollywand - Oct 24, 2004 4:50 pm (#610 of 1121)
It sounds fantastic Elanor. The circle is a symbol of immortality from the Prehistoric onward through the ages. The circle metaphor is also the actual key to life, chemically---carbon is able to arrange and rearrange itself in multiple chain patterns to provide proteins for the DNA, RNa protein strands. The Benzene ring, the carbon chain forming a circle pattern was a solution dreamed by the scientist (Cavendish?) who dreamed of a snake biting its tail.
It seems to me that you have beautifully put together what will be an underlying metaphor to the story. Bravo!
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zelmia - Oct 24, 2004 9:57 pm (#611 of 1121)
In one of my library books on alchemy, I read recently that the ouroboros is his own destruction/death (symbolized by the eating of his own tail) and also his own rebirth. Sound like anyone we know? What sprang to mind when I read that passage was that perhaps Voldemort is somehow an actual, living ouroboros.
I can't really explain what I mean, but it occured to me that that might be part of what Rowling was referring to when she asked us to ponder why Voldemort didn't die. I would like to think more about this and try to get back to you with some more complete thoughts; but I wanted to put this up here while we were still focusing on Snakes for the time being. Thanks, all!
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Upulwan - Oct 25, 2004 2:39 am (#612 of 1121)
Zelmia, to skip back a couple of posts, that was an interesting thought on Nagini possibly protecting Harry in the graveyard scene. It reminded me of another bit of folklore from the part of the world where I come from. It's thought to be bad luck to kill a snake because more than any other animal (for a reason I've now forgotten), snakes are associated with one's dead relatives, reborn and returned to you as protective figures. Sounds strange, I know, but again you can see the idea of protection and guardianship in relation to snakes. In naming the snake Nagini, rather than any of the myriad classical names she has at her disposal, JKR must have intended to draw on some of the cultural associations that comes with the name after all.
As for my name (glad you think it's interesting!), that's it there as my avatar, or rather the colour of my avatar.
And now that I'm finally posting, (I've been reading for a long, long time, ever since the thread first began I think)let me say you guys are awesome: what you discuss here doesn't only broaden my reading of HP, it's like a mini-encyclopaedia for anything that has brushed past the symbols and narratives of western literature. I feel guilty for not contributing more often, but I pay my dues by religiously reading this thread even if I haven't got the time to look at other threads!
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Elanor - Oct 25, 2004 7:16 am (#613 of 1121)
Great connections Upulwan! I'm very happy that you post here and that you like the thread. To be honest, it's been a long time since I had done such researches about a subject and I love that: it has become my daily "breath of fresh air"!
BTW, what you say about Nagini is very interesting and reinforce my feeling that there is more about her than meet the eye... She has definitely a "maternal" attitude towards Voldemort and, at the same time, maybe a protective attitude towards Harry. I wonder if it is because he speaks parseltongue. I checked "The vanishing glass" chapter, in PS/SS. It says that first, the snake "was fast asleep." It didn't move when Vernon tapped on the glass but when the Dursleys had gone, Harry just "looked intently at the snake." and then: "The snake suddenly opened its beady eyes. Slowly, very slowly, it raised its head until its eyes were on a level with Harry's. It winked." And then, Harry speaks to it...
Now that I reread it, it seems to me that the boa recognized Harry for what he was (a parselmouth) at once, before he had said a single word. If that boa could see it, Nagini must have seen it too; hence maybe her "protective" behaviour since she felt something "snake-like", or even maybe "Voldemort-like", in him. She may associate the two of them in her mind. Her behaviour in the next books will be interesting to follow indeed...
Zelmia, about the Ouroboros and Voldemort, I think you're right. The ouroboros is one of the most complex symbols of the alchemy process. In fact, it refers to a process which closes up on itself and is meant to purify the matter. It may represent the Work itself and its aim and, sometimes, the fact that the one who learns makes progress and the one who makes progress wants to learn more. It is a symbol of perfection and eternity and it could be applied to other characters too, positive characters that time.
But it is also bound to the image of the snake which sheds its skin. This can be applied to Voldemort: he said himself in GoF : "I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal- to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..." (p.566 paperback edition). These experiments can be seen as "sloughings" and his rebirth is the last sloughing we know. At the end, he will shed his skin for a last time. Does it make sense?
BTW, Hollywand, thanks for the chemistry clues, they fit very well with all that!
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Elanor - Oct 26, 2004 3:32 am (#614 of 1121)
Today, I was thinking to character's names and the alchemical clues they might contain and some other far-fetched theories came to me: please feel free to call the ambulance for St Mungo again if needed (they're going to reserve a room for me permanently, so that's not a problem...).
So, the first one I thought about was Rubeus Hagrid. I was trying to tidy up my books, that is to say that I was skimming through them instead of really putting them in order, when I read something about geomancy. Incidentally, this could be another subject teached at Hogwarts we don't know about yet. Geomancy is a kind of divination thanks to the earth, which was used for chosing where a city, a house or a tomb should be built. The Occidental system used 16 figures of dots that were drawn on the sand. They were connected to the 4 elements and divided into 4 groups:
- the fire: Via, Caudra draconis, puer and Fortuna minor (the path, the dragon’s tail, the child and the minor fortune)
- the air: Puella, Amissio, Carcer and Laeticia (the maiden, the loss, the prison and the joy)
- the water: caput draconis, conjunctio, acquisition and rubeus (the dragon's head, the conjunction, the acquisition, the red)
- the earth: fortuna major, albus, tristissia and populus (the major fortune, the white, the sadness and the people).
BTW, most of those figures can be connected with the alchemical process particularly the white, red, conjuction ans dragon's symbols. But what I find the most interesting is the role of Rubeus and Albus here!
Rebeus means red but what I didn't realize is that his name could be connected to the water element, with the dragon's head and the conjunction. If we're right and that the 6th book is going to be connected to water, that might be another clue that Hagrid will have a decisive role to play then! After that, I checked the lexicon and found what Jo said about the name hagrid in an interview: "Hagrid is also another old English word, meaning, if you're hagrid - it's a dialect word- you'd had a bad night. Hagrid is a big drinker- he has a lot of bad nights". That is to say that we can also connect his name to the wine symbol we discussed before on that thread! Amazing isn't it?
In alchemy the wine, that is to say symbolically the "elixir of life" the alchemist achieved at the end of the work, is as red as the wine. In other words, Rubeus Hagrid means: Red Red-wine/elixir... We already know that Hagrid has a huge resistance thanks to his giant blood, we may also discover he has healing powers in the next books, which, in a way, we already saw by the way he treats animals...
According to geomancy, we can connect Albus to the earth, but I can't figure out if it is relevant or not for the moment. Any ideas?
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Hollywand - Oct 26, 2004 4:33 pm (#615 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, these are great ideas you have researched here! Caput draconis is specifically used in the Potter text, but I can't quite remember where, and will have to do some searching. Such a closely matching specific phrase suggests to me that you are on a very fruitful pathway!
Please forgive if I don't post a whole lot in the next few days; my computer got an electric shock through my modem wire and lost its tiny little mind. Poor little thing is at the Genius Bar having a new memory installed. I am down to a tin can strung through a wire here.
Great contributions everyone and a wonderful discussion!
All the best, Hollywand
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els - Oct 26, 2004 4:40 pm (#616 of 1121)
Hollywand,
fortuna major (PA5) and caput draconis (S/PS7) were both passwords to the Gryffindor dorms.
~els
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 26, 2004 8:38 pm (#617 of 1121)
Els, a very nice catch take 10 points.
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 12:26 am (#618 of 1121)
Ho, Hollywand, I'm so sorry for your computer! I hope it will be fixed soon, we need you here! I hope the repairman is a good wizard: with luck, your computer may be enchanted after that (well, as long as it doesn't fly...) *sending cheering charms*
Els: very nice catch indeed! "Caput draconis" is, in fact, an alchemical process. I've checked the lexicon and it is also the first password Jo tells us about in the books. It is just as if she just told us that a "password" to the books was alchemy! Amazing, isn't it?
This morning, I'm going to the library. I will search for more details about geomancy's symbols and their connections with alchemy. There is definitely something here!
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 11:42 am (#619 of 1121)
OK, I've done some researches but I didn't find a lot more details, except that those symbols are indeed bound to the alchemical ones. The fact that they refer to the 4 elements puts in it the idea of the balance of the 4 elements/humours too. This is a quest for balance and harmony for the places the men live in. But I will search again, I won't admit defeat that easily!
About the characters's name, another one made me think a lot: Hermione. I love the Hermi-one meaning of the name that Hollywand told us about brilliantly: Hermione is indeed our "hermetic guide" in the books and I think I have found another evidence of that. When I say "Hermione", I always think to the alliteration with "harmony" (OK, maybe because my accent in English is awful) but still I think there is something here, the more because we know that Jo loves alliterations.
There is one thing about alchemy that we haven't discussed yet and that is important: music. We already said that, in alchemy, there was a complex system of relations (coming from the Antiquity), beginning with the 7 planets bound to the 7 metals used in alchemy. But a lot of alchemical diagrams also connect those 7 planets and metals to the 7 Greek vowel, the 7 primary colours, 7 parts or organs of the body AND the 7 notes/tones of the octave. The general idea here is that they believed that these were the symbols of a perfect and beautiful harmony, the one they were seeking.
BTW, Hermes was meant to have invented the lyre, the first musical instrument... In a word, for alchemists, music was the harmony that had to be present between nature and the Great Work. Musical instruments were also symbolising some moments or process of the Great Work. That why "Hermione" can also symbolize the "harmony" in our process here: she is, most of the time, the one who brings the balance in the trio, the one they need to move on. Does it make sense?
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Hollywand - Oct 27, 2004 12:48 pm (#620 of 1121)
Absolutely, Elanor. I have often thought that Harry/Hermione is alliteration--Herry/Harmione as Harmony. Yes.
The Mimbulus Mimbeltonia I think is a clue to the music. Rowling describes the plant as looking like a diseased organ, but I think she is making a pun on organ/intrument and organ/internal organ. this pun would fit very nicely with the connections you are pointing out between alchemical music and organs of the body. Harry does dream a harmony for Neville: he is dancing with Professor Sprout (a budding herbologist) whilst Minerva plays the bagpipes (looking rather like a Mimbelus Mimbeltonia, I imagined). Neville achieves enlightenment through the Mimbletonia. I can't help but think of Mumbling as alliteration---which is what Alice, his mother is doing in St Mungos. I think this set of metaphors will blossom. Music was the key to getting past Fluffy, so perhaps the music of the mimbeltonia will charm Nagini?
Great associations. My apologies for the clumsy post.
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 1:16 pm (#621 of 1121)
Yes, exactly! The connection with the Mimbulus Mimbletonia is wonderful! The more because at the end of OotP, in the train back to London, it is said that: " Neville was stroking his Mimbulus mimbletonia, which had grown a great deal over the year and now made odd crooning noises when touched" (Ootp, p. 762, paperback edition).
So, it has already began to sing when touched; a lot like a kind of odd musical instrument. It could even be a metaphor for Neville's behaviour: in OotP, Neville did "grown a great deal over the year" too, and started to reveal ("sing") himself too. I love that idea! And I can't wait to see what will happen when they will have both finish their "growth"...
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 27, 2004 2:43 pm (#622 of 1121)
"Ah, music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!", SS The Sorting Hat.
One of these days the notes of that waltz are going to hit me. Probably right over the head!
Hey all! And congradulations Elanor on your publication! All I have had time to do lately is read the thread. Thinking is not an option at this point. Just wanted to pop in and say I'm still here.
Pam
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Hollywand - Oct 27, 2004 3:21 pm (#623 of 1121)
More musings on the name meanings, Elanor--Dumbledore--since dore is a root word for love, I have always taken Albus' name to be "silent" (Dumb) (dore) "love" OR "silent" "door"---if he is associated with Fortuna Major, he is Harry's pathway to enlightenment.
Note to nitpickies: I realize Dumbledore means bumblebee in Old English, no dungbombs, please.
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Elanor - Oct 28, 2004 7:40 am (#624 of 1121)
Great connections TBE and Hollywand! We're making progress indeed.
TBE, thanks a lot! I'm so happy to see you here !
More musing on the name meanings too:
Mme Hooch. We don't know her first name for sure. The Lexicon says that "Rolanda" is not canon (it comes from a game), but her family name is VERY interesting. According to my dictionary, Hooch means "gnôle" in French, that is to say the slang word for "eau-de-vie"... So, we can connect her to the wine/"water of life" symbol too, as we connected Hagrid before. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of her in the next books...
BTW, while *hum* tidying *hum*, I found a very interesting entry in a book ("Alchemy explained by its language") and it concerns the letter "H", which we encounter very often as names' initial in the books, beginning with Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Hogwarts...
This letter is a very important symbol in alchemy. The author even says that it is the key letter of the alchemical symbolism. I will try to summarize it but please forgive me if it seems a little obscure because, as often in alchemy (and in Jo's universe BTW), it is based on a lot of alliterations and puns, which are in French, and rather difficult to translate. OK, I try:
First, of course, it is the initial of Hermes.
It is also the symbol of the Salt by phonetic analogy between the letter "H" and the word "hâche" (it means "axe" - you pronounce both H and hâche exactly in the same way in French) because the Salt "hâche" (chops) the matter.
In fact, this letter is the cause of what was called "la cabale phonétique" (the phonetic cabbala) which has nothing to do with the Hebraic Kabbale. Here the word cabbala comes from the Greek word for "horse" (from a pun I can't translate properly, playing on the words "à cheval" for H-val and "selle" /"sel" - saddle-salt). It refers to a language which would allow men to "speak" with everything that lives; in a word, the alchemical language (which led to our actual slang BTW!).
The phonetic cabbale uses the sonority of the words. For example, when Rabelais names one of his books "L'île sonnante" ("the resonant island"), he means "lit le sonnant" ("read what sounds"), that is to say read the sonority of the words to understand properly... Which is exactly what Jo does with all the puns and alliterations she uses, don't you think so?
Alchemists also transformed this letter (as a written symbol) into the letters: N ("l' N" = laine phonetically - wool, refering to the Golden Fleece), M (for magnetism), a kind of sign a little like the Pi letter (for a process), which in reverse gives the letter U (for unity)...
Finally, with the 3 strokes you need to write H, they could write the number 4 for the 4 elements and all the symbolism this number refers to. I have to say that I love that one... I can't help but think to the Hogwarts crest: an H, in the middle of the 4 houses symbols...
So, I think that the fact that we find this letter so often in the books has nothing to do with chance; it is a clue telling us what language we have to use to understand this universe properly.
Well, sorry for this long rambling, I hope it is comprehensible, if it is not, just tell me, I'll try again!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 10:09 am (#625 of 1121)
Elanor your musings on the letter H reminded me of something related to the Cyrilic alphabet.
In the Cyrilic alphabet the letter N is written like the letter H in the English alphabet. I wonder does this seem to indicate a connection between Nick and Harry.
Also congratulations on your publication well done. A timeline I complied has been included on the Lexicon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think it's more to do with the caduceus, the "two snakes fighting" that Hermes was able to separate and then unite. "But in essence divided." This was no idle muttering. I think Dumbledore was trying to tell us something and I think it's to do with Nagini. I also think there is a siginifance in her very name, which is so very similar to the Nagas of India - the snake spirits who can represent either Good or Evil (as Hollywand just said).
I have been trying to identify this connection for some time but I'm afraid my knowledge of alchemical symbolism is just too limited to be very articulate. For example, (I think I've asked this before) if the Snake is usually represenative of the Perfected process, then why should it be assosciated with Voldemort? Has he attained the Stone in some way, some Stone that only he would seek to begin with? I am still confused about this....
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Upulwan - Oct 21, 2004 2:35 am (#602 of 1121)
Just to add my two knuts' worth on the topic of Nagini, (and this is just what I remember from Buddhist literature classes way back, not from any thorough, recent research, so please pardon any blunders), while Naga in Sanskrit means snake, the suffix 'ini' denotes the female gender. In Indian mythology, the Naga were a people, able to govern themselves and communicate, integral to any story/myth/history concerning humans, highly respected in the multiple worlds featured in these narratives. Much closer to deity than animal, and if you're waging war on the neighbouring kingdom, you'd do well to have the Nagas on your side.
Unlike in western narratives where the foremost connection made with snakes is 'evil' or even the fall from Eden, in Indian mythology, specially in Buddhist narratives, they are mainly guardian figures. (That of course has unavoidable resonances with the basilisk and Slytherin's Chamber of Secrets.) Hence you'll find snake figurines at entrances to temples, shrines etc. (again, connects with the entrance to the Chamber, with the serpent etched on the tap)
Nagas are specially prominent in Buddhist literature, and in one of the most well-known stories the Naga king Muchalinda (a massive creature, several times bigger than a human) coiled his body around the Buddha and arched his massive head over the meditating figure to shelter and protect him for seven days from a deluge. I shudder to make the connection, but Nagini does seem like a protector to Voldemort, doesn't she?
Another layer in this guardian metaphor is that the world of the Naga was said to be in the bowels of the earth, where precious stones were to be found, and the Nagas are often depicted as guardians of precious rubies and sapphires, as jewel-bearers, protecting the stones from the overarching greed of humans. When a Buddhist 'stupa' (the dome like structure better known as 'pagoda' in Eastern Asia) is built, its crest, in tradition, is topped by a precious stone, the glow of which can be glimpsed for many miles around, and it is usually the reigning Naga king who presents this jewel.
The female snakes, or the Naginis, were known for their mesmerising music and sinuous dances which work like enchantments.
On the other side of the coin of course, you have the snake-charmers, men who, by playing a flute, claim to be able to make tame snakes dance, a very common career in South Asia. I have heard that the way this works is through the snake imitating the movement of the charmer's raised knee, rather than any ability to 'move' to the music! In fact, if you ever see a snake charmer at work, squatting with one knee, you'll see how his other, raised knee moves to a rhythm. Whenever I read the bit about Nagini and Voldemort, that's what comes to my mind, Voldemort the snake-charmer, complete with a turban and all! He does seem to have her 'charmed' to do his bidding, and he also has the Death Eaters, (snakes themselves in the 'evil' sense), 'charmed', even if by fear, to do his bidding.
Anyway, hope my yarn is of some use! JKR has drawn from a wealth of symbolic structures, so unbelievably extensive and intertwined, that I won't bat an eyelid to find that a bit of Indian mythology has seeped into the brew (or deliberately added).
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Elanor - Oct 21, 2004 11:53 am (#603 of 1121)
Great thought everyone! Thank you so much for sharing those informations with us Upulwan, that is brilliant! I love the image of Voldemort as a snake-charmer!
Voldemort has indeed a very special relation with snakes since he is a parcelmouth and Harry has the same connection with them. If we think about it, the first time Jo shows us that Harry is "special" is at the zoo when he speaks and set the snake free. I always thought it might be an image of Harry's desire to be set free too.
The snake symbol is interesting because it is, above all, a very ambivalent one. The snake symbol is, by itself, a pair of opposites because it puts together the values of night and day, good and evil, life and death, male and female... It is one and several at the same time. Voldemort is ambivalent too because he used to be Tom Riddle, the kid of the orphanage, before becoming the monster that we know.
As you said so well Upulwan and Hollywand, the snake is not an evil symbol most of the time. Voldemort can't have attained the Philosopher's stone because he doesn't understand its true meaning. But that doesn't mean that he is not on the way of a perfected process, but not as he imagines it. I think that Voldemort will live a kind of "ouroboros" at the end: Harry will make him realize his own emptiness which will be his doom. In that way, he will "bite his own tail".
BTW, Hollywand I loved what you wrote about Harry's gaze! You're certainly onto something here. Lily's green eyes and the snakes: I love that!
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Hollywand - Oct 21, 2004 5:38 pm (#604 of 1121)
thanks to everyone for the tremendous comments! I love this thread! It's such a pleasure to read.
Zelmia, I wanted to reply to your comments on alchemy and feeling as if you don't understand the logic of the theory, and just say that I think you are doing a great job of following and contributing to the discussion. Alchemical theories are very convoluted, and don't really follow the sort of scientifically reproduceable empiricism that is the hallmark of Western science. Empirical experiments are really Newton's legacy--a quote from Sir Issac: "Aristotle is my friend. Plato is my friend. But my best friend is truth." Newton was fantastic at positing experiments to prove his theories, as alchemists were not. I can site some other great scientics before Newton, such as Gallileo and Kepler, who also were amazing empiricists, but their work was adumbrated by the limitations of the times.
All this to say that I think perhaps you (Zelmia) may find a useful analogy to alchemical philosophy in Eastern philosophies such as the IChing. The Tao Te Ching teaches that the nadir changes to the zenith, that flowering is the beginning of decline; alchemy gets at those sorts of mysteries at its finest. This is how Voldemort may represent the nadir which is a complete decline, decrease and now changes to the gradual ascent. I hope that's of some help (possibly not).
*Elanor, your wonderful details about the snakes and the female caused me to wonder if Lily could somehow be connected with a Gorgon like figure. If Voldemort meets the Gorgon's gaze, this would perhaps transform him into vapor; if he had removed his essence? Perhaps Harry's parselmouth is not a gift from Voldemort, but a gift from his Gorgon like mother Lily. After all, Harry can speak to the Boa Constrictor before he has any really singnificant magical training. Hmmm. A wild consideration, Lily as Gorgon, but Rowling's background is in the Classics, so perhaps....
Upulwan, Just a note to say how wonderful your summary of the positive aspects of the snake in Indian culture. I am reminded of Japanese Shinto culture, a nature-based culture, where snakes are symbols of gain and prosperity, gaining treasure, as treasure is from the earth.
Ancient Egyptian culture, nature based, buried treasure culture if there ever was one, and the cobra, horned viper such a symbol of royal power, that which issues from the earth as a rebirthing symbol.
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Elanor - Oct 22, 2004 12:35 pm (#605 of 1121)
Great thoughts Hollywand! When I read your post, it reminded me the old debate about nature versus nurture in a child's education. In Harry's case, we should say that Parseltongue may be "nature", that is to say a gift the child has without having ever practiced it, which is what happened when he spoke to the Boa at the Zoo. Quidditch may be another innate gift. But other talents he has had to be practiced to become efficient which was the case of the patronus for example. This makes me wonder what other still hidden gifts he has...
I agree too with what you said concerning alchemy. It is difficult for us to understand it because we broaching it with our very rational minds. Here we say "Cartesian" for that because it came from Descartes' theories. But alchemists didn't think like that. For example, if we consider the number 2: I guess that Descartes would have said it is 1+1, 2+0 and 0+2, but an alchemist would have said that 2 (considered as Sulphur and Mercury) could also mean 1 (in the philosopher's stone), 3 (with the salt element) and 4 (as an image of the 4 elements)... This thought process is unfamiliar to us now but that doesn't mean it is meaningless.
Which is funny is the story of the word Hermetic. At the beginning, it was a reference to Hermes: alchemists were Hermetists, Hermes' disciples. But it changed because, at a certain time of the work, they needed to have an airtight container, which was very difficult to obtain then. The word came then in the ordinary language and hermetism then meant airtight (or watertight). As their studies were difficult to understand, "hermetic" also meant soon "obscure". But in fact, a hermetic theory is just a theory which is based on a hidden principle of wisdom a man has to find out through a spiritual work.
LOL! I just reread myself and thought what I wrote was indeed obscure too! Maybe an example would be clearer:
They thought that the "centre" of man was the Heart,and it was reflected in the Lion, Gold and the Sun symbols (here is the mirror image again). But the man can't transmute metals into gold if he has not transmuted his heart before. The path of heart makes him a Lion, a king, and makes him turning towards the sun light, that is to say the "centre" of our planetary system. This is called the hermetic circle. This is the ouroboros symbol too and the saying "Hen ta panat": the "one-is-everything" at the same time (un-toutes-les-choses).
What is the connection with HP then? I think that is very important because we know that "heart" will be Harry's best weapon in the future, that "heart" is the most protected room of the MoM, that solar and lion symbols are always bound to Harry. I've just realized that even his glasses are a solar symbol because they are round and the circle means sun in alchemy! In HP too all those symbols are mixed and "answer" to each other, creating a wonderful symbolical universe. From the beginning of the series those symbols showed us the path: the path of the heart Harry has to follow. And Jo is a genius.
Sorry for the length! I had very theoretical musings tonight, please forgive me if it was boring.
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Hollywand - Oct 22, 2004 6:16 pm (#606 of 1121)
A tremendously enjoyable post, Elanor. A wonderful connection with Harry's glasses as a sun symbol! I am also amazed at the interlinked symbolism in the books---and to think, I would not have connected a fraction of these symbols without the contributions on this thread. It's a great gift!
To muse on your final paragraph, Elanor, I think you are intuitively getting at the locked door in the Department of Mysteries. Something to do with what lies in the heart. The DA was shown lots of abstracted concepts connected with the macrocosmos---time, weather, thoughts, the veil between life and death. Perhaps behind the door lies the mystery of the fullness of Harry's heart, in contrast to Voldemort's empty heart. You said it much more eloquently than I have, Elanor: a sort of gateway connecting the macrocosmos to the microcosmos. What a wonderful possibility!
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zelmia - Oct 22, 2004 8:01 pm (#607 of 1121)
Hollywand, I appreciate your remarks that were addressed to me very much. Thank you. And I hope that others who feel as I do will take heart from them as well and feel free to contribute, as I have. I too absolutely love this thread and have learned so much from everyone!
Upulwan (interesting name), thank you for your explanation on the Naga/Nagini. I think everyone can get a bit of insight from it. In fact, in reading your post, my mind went immediately to the rebirthing scene in GF, when Nagini has wrapped herself around the tombstone where Harry has been tied; continually circling him. Wouldn't it be interesting if she was actually "guarding" Harry at that point, but neither Harry nor Voldemort (nor any of us) knew it?
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Elanor - Oct 22, 2004 11:14 pm (#608 of 1121)
Hello everyone and thank you *blushing*! Hollywand, you're right: connections between macrocosm and microcosm are really something to look into closely. I will work on it this afternoon.
Zelmia: great connection with Nagini maybe "guarding" Harry in the graveyard! You always have great ideas and I love to hear them.
I do agree with you both: this thread is a real gift! I've learnt so much here too. What is amazing is how everyone's ideas make the whole discussion going forward. So, everyone, don't be shy! We would love to hear your ideas!
Fall holidays are just starting here. I'm so happy because that means that I will have more time for doing researches for that thread! Yeah! Weird am I? No, just a potty...
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Elanor - Oct 24, 2004 8:36 am (#609 of 1121)
I've searched a little more about the relation between the macrocosm and the microcosm which was so important for the alchemists. As we already said, they believed that the universe was organized in concentric spheres, from the planet to men, from men to minerals. Each planet was connected with a metal, a human organ and a constellation. Each sphere acts on the others and the lightning, or an rainbow, connects the macrocosm to the microcosm. If we apply this symbol to Harry's scar, that means that what happens to him, in a way, happens to the whole wizarding world. We could even say that he is the bound between the macrocosm (the magic) and the microcosm (the wizarding community) too. Voldemort has troubled the order of things in the Magical world: hence the prophetcy and Harry's mission. As said DD: "I rather thought... you had enough responsability to be going on with". Indeed.
I've searched a little about the circle symbol too. The circle means perfection first. In alchemy, it means gold and sun and refers to the ouroboros symbol. But, in magical rites, circles were often used to keep away evil spirits. The magician has to stay inside the circle otherwise he will be in great danger. It reminds me what Zelmia said about Nagini "drawing" circles around Harry in the graveyard: it could be another clue that she's trying to protect him by marking out a circle around him?
In the same chapter, we find the "circle" created by the connection between Harry's and Voldemort's wands: they are indeed both "protected" from what is outside till they stay inside the circle. Harry has to break it and then, he is in great danger again till he grabs the cup. Symbolically, it could be a magical circle, drawn by Fawkes, to protect Harry.
If I remember well, there is a circular room in the Department of mysteries in the MoM: till Harry and the others remain inside this circle, they are safe but, from the moment they open the different doors, they are in great danger... In the same way, just after his rebirth, Voldemort is safe inside the circle made by his DE and when he leaves it, to attack Harry, he isn't anymore. It can't be a coincidence. What do you think?
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Hollywand - Oct 24, 2004 4:50 pm (#610 of 1121)
It sounds fantastic Elanor. The circle is a symbol of immortality from the Prehistoric onward through the ages. The circle metaphor is also the actual key to life, chemically---carbon is able to arrange and rearrange itself in multiple chain patterns to provide proteins for the DNA, RNa protein strands. The Benzene ring, the carbon chain forming a circle pattern was a solution dreamed by the scientist (Cavendish?) who dreamed of a snake biting its tail.
It seems to me that you have beautifully put together what will be an underlying metaphor to the story. Bravo!
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zelmia - Oct 24, 2004 9:57 pm (#611 of 1121)
In one of my library books on alchemy, I read recently that the ouroboros is his own destruction/death (symbolized by the eating of his own tail) and also his own rebirth. Sound like anyone we know? What sprang to mind when I read that passage was that perhaps Voldemort is somehow an actual, living ouroboros.
I can't really explain what I mean, but it occured to me that that might be part of what Rowling was referring to when she asked us to ponder why Voldemort didn't die. I would like to think more about this and try to get back to you with some more complete thoughts; but I wanted to put this up here while we were still focusing on Snakes for the time being. Thanks, all!
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Upulwan - Oct 25, 2004 2:39 am (#612 of 1121)
Zelmia, to skip back a couple of posts, that was an interesting thought on Nagini possibly protecting Harry in the graveyard scene. It reminded me of another bit of folklore from the part of the world where I come from. It's thought to be bad luck to kill a snake because more than any other animal (for a reason I've now forgotten), snakes are associated with one's dead relatives, reborn and returned to you as protective figures. Sounds strange, I know, but again you can see the idea of protection and guardianship in relation to snakes. In naming the snake Nagini, rather than any of the myriad classical names she has at her disposal, JKR must have intended to draw on some of the cultural associations that comes with the name after all.
As for my name (glad you think it's interesting!), that's it there as my avatar, or rather the colour of my avatar.
And now that I'm finally posting, (I've been reading for a long, long time, ever since the thread first began I think)let me say you guys are awesome: what you discuss here doesn't only broaden my reading of HP, it's like a mini-encyclopaedia for anything that has brushed past the symbols and narratives of western literature. I feel guilty for not contributing more often, but I pay my dues by religiously reading this thread even if I haven't got the time to look at other threads!
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Elanor - Oct 25, 2004 7:16 am (#613 of 1121)
Great connections Upulwan! I'm very happy that you post here and that you like the thread. To be honest, it's been a long time since I had done such researches about a subject and I love that: it has become my daily "breath of fresh air"!
BTW, what you say about Nagini is very interesting and reinforce my feeling that there is more about her than meet the eye... She has definitely a "maternal" attitude towards Voldemort and, at the same time, maybe a protective attitude towards Harry. I wonder if it is because he speaks parseltongue. I checked "The vanishing glass" chapter, in PS/SS. It says that first, the snake "was fast asleep." It didn't move when Vernon tapped on the glass but when the Dursleys had gone, Harry just "looked intently at the snake." and then: "The snake suddenly opened its beady eyes. Slowly, very slowly, it raised its head until its eyes were on a level with Harry's. It winked." And then, Harry speaks to it...
Now that I reread it, it seems to me that the boa recognized Harry for what he was (a parselmouth) at once, before he had said a single word. If that boa could see it, Nagini must have seen it too; hence maybe her "protective" behaviour since she felt something "snake-like", or even maybe "Voldemort-like", in him. She may associate the two of them in her mind. Her behaviour in the next books will be interesting to follow indeed...
Zelmia, about the Ouroboros and Voldemort, I think you're right. The ouroboros is one of the most complex symbols of the alchemy process. In fact, it refers to a process which closes up on itself and is meant to purify the matter. It may represent the Work itself and its aim and, sometimes, the fact that the one who learns makes progress and the one who makes progress wants to learn more. It is a symbol of perfection and eternity and it could be applied to other characters too, positive characters that time.
But it is also bound to the image of the snake which sheds its skin. This can be applied to Voldemort: he said himself in GoF : "I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal- to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..." (p.566 paperback edition). These experiments can be seen as "sloughings" and his rebirth is the last sloughing we know. At the end, he will shed his skin for a last time. Does it make sense?
BTW, Hollywand, thanks for the chemistry clues, they fit very well with all that!
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Elanor - Oct 26, 2004 3:32 am (#614 of 1121)
Today, I was thinking to character's names and the alchemical clues they might contain and some other far-fetched theories came to me: please feel free to call the ambulance for St Mungo again if needed (they're going to reserve a room for me permanently, so that's not a problem...).
So, the first one I thought about was Rubeus Hagrid. I was trying to tidy up my books, that is to say that I was skimming through them instead of really putting them in order, when I read something about geomancy. Incidentally, this could be another subject teached at Hogwarts we don't know about yet. Geomancy is a kind of divination thanks to the earth, which was used for chosing where a city, a house or a tomb should be built. The Occidental system used 16 figures of dots that were drawn on the sand. They were connected to the 4 elements and divided into 4 groups:
- the fire: Via, Caudra draconis, puer and Fortuna minor (the path, the dragon’s tail, the child and the minor fortune)
- the air: Puella, Amissio, Carcer and Laeticia (the maiden, the loss, the prison and the joy)
- the water: caput draconis, conjunctio, acquisition and rubeus (the dragon's head, the conjunction, the acquisition, the red)
- the earth: fortuna major, albus, tristissia and populus (the major fortune, the white, the sadness and the people).
BTW, most of those figures can be connected with the alchemical process particularly the white, red, conjuction ans dragon's symbols. But what I find the most interesting is the role of Rubeus and Albus here!
Rebeus means red but what I didn't realize is that his name could be connected to the water element, with the dragon's head and the conjunction. If we're right and that the 6th book is going to be connected to water, that might be another clue that Hagrid will have a decisive role to play then! After that, I checked the lexicon and found what Jo said about the name hagrid in an interview: "Hagrid is also another old English word, meaning, if you're hagrid - it's a dialect word- you'd had a bad night. Hagrid is a big drinker- he has a lot of bad nights". That is to say that we can also connect his name to the wine symbol we discussed before on that thread! Amazing isn't it?
In alchemy the wine, that is to say symbolically the "elixir of life" the alchemist achieved at the end of the work, is as red as the wine. In other words, Rubeus Hagrid means: Red Red-wine/elixir... We already know that Hagrid has a huge resistance thanks to his giant blood, we may also discover he has healing powers in the next books, which, in a way, we already saw by the way he treats animals...
According to geomancy, we can connect Albus to the earth, but I can't figure out if it is relevant or not for the moment. Any ideas?
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Hollywand - Oct 26, 2004 4:33 pm (#615 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, these are great ideas you have researched here! Caput draconis is specifically used in the Potter text, but I can't quite remember where, and will have to do some searching. Such a closely matching specific phrase suggests to me that you are on a very fruitful pathway!
Please forgive if I don't post a whole lot in the next few days; my computer got an electric shock through my modem wire and lost its tiny little mind. Poor little thing is at the Genius Bar having a new memory installed. I am down to a tin can strung through a wire here.
Great contributions everyone and a wonderful discussion!
All the best, Hollywand
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els - Oct 26, 2004 4:40 pm (#616 of 1121)
Hollywand,
fortuna major (PA5) and caput draconis (S/PS7) were both passwords to the Gryffindor dorms.
~els
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 26, 2004 8:38 pm (#617 of 1121)
Els, a very nice catch take 10 points.
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 12:26 am (#618 of 1121)
Ho, Hollywand, I'm so sorry for your computer! I hope it will be fixed soon, we need you here! I hope the repairman is a good wizard: with luck, your computer may be enchanted after that (well, as long as it doesn't fly...) *sending cheering charms*
Els: very nice catch indeed! "Caput draconis" is, in fact, an alchemical process. I've checked the lexicon and it is also the first password Jo tells us about in the books. It is just as if she just told us that a "password" to the books was alchemy! Amazing, isn't it?
This morning, I'm going to the library. I will search for more details about geomancy's symbols and their connections with alchemy. There is definitely something here!
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 11:42 am (#619 of 1121)
OK, I've done some researches but I didn't find a lot more details, except that those symbols are indeed bound to the alchemical ones. The fact that they refer to the 4 elements puts in it the idea of the balance of the 4 elements/humours too. This is a quest for balance and harmony for the places the men live in. But I will search again, I won't admit defeat that easily!
About the characters's name, another one made me think a lot: Hermione. I love the Hermi-one meaning of the name that Hollywand told us about brilliantly: Hermione is indeed our "hermetic guide" in the books and I think I have found another evidence of that. When I say "Hermione", I always think to the alliteration with "harmony" (OK, maybe because my accent in English is awful) but still I think there is something here, the more because we know that Jo loves alliterations.
There is one thing about alchemy that we haven't discussed yet and that is important: music. We already said that, in alchemy, there was a complex system of relations (coming from the Antiquity), beginning with the 7 planets bound to the 7 metals used in alchemy. But a lot of alchemical diagrams also connect those 7 planets and metals to the 7 Greek vowel, the 7 primary colours, 7 parts or organs of the body AND the 7 notes/tones of the octave. The general idea here is that they believed that these were the symbols of a perfect and beautiful harmony, the one they were seeking.
BTW, Hermes was meant to have invented the lyre, the first musical instrument... In a word, for alchemists, music was the harmony that had to be present between nature and the Great Work. Musical instruments were also symbolising some moments or process of the Great Work. That why "Hermione" can also symbolize the "harmony" in our process here: she is, most of the time, the one who brings the balance in the trio, the one they need to move on. Does it make sense?
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Hollywand - Oct 27, 2004 12:48 pm (#620 of 1121)
Absolutely, Elanor. I have often thought that Harry/Hermione is alliteration--Herry/Harmione as Harmony. Yes.
The Mimbulus Mimbeltonia I think is a clue to the music. Rowling describes the plant as looking like a diseased organ, but I think she is making a pun on organ/intrument and organ/internal organ. this pun would fit very nicely with the connections you are pointing out between alchemical music and organs of the body. Harry does dream a harmony for Neville: he is dancing with Professor Sprout (a budding herbologist) whilst Minerva plays the bagpipes (looking rather like a Mimbelus Mimbeltonia, I imagined). Neville achieves enlightenment through the Mimbletonia. I can't help but think of Mumbling as alliteration---which is what Alice, his mother is doing in St Mungos. I think this set of metaphors will blossom. Music was the key to getting past Fluffy, so perhaps the music of the mimbeltonia will charm Nagini?
Great associations. My apologies for the clumsy post.
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Elanor - Oct 27, 2004 1:16 pm (#621 of 1121)
Yes, exactly! The connection with the Mimbulus Mimbletonia is wonderful! The more because at the end of OotP, in the train back to London, it is said that: " Neville was stroking his Mimbulus mimbletonia, which had grown a great deal over the year and now made odd crooning noises when touched" (Ootp, p. 762, paperback edition).
So, it has already began to sing when touched; a lot like a kind of odd musical instrument. It could even be a metaphor for Neville's behaviour: in OotP, Neville did "grown a great deal over the year" too, and started to reveal ("sing") himself too. I love that idea! And I can't wait to see what will happen when they will have both finish their "growth"...
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 27, 2004 2:43 pm (#622 of 1121)
"Ah, music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!", SS The Sorting Hat.
One of these days the notes of that waltz are going to hit me. Probably right over the head!
Hey all! And congradulations Elanor on your publication! All I have had time to do lately is read the thread. Thinking is not an option at this point. Just wanted to pop in and say I'm still here.
Pam
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Hollywand - Oct 27, 2004 3:21 pm (#623 of 1121)
More musings on the name meanings, Elanor--Dumbledore--since dore is a root word for love, I have always taken Albus' name to be "silent" (Dumb) (dore) "love" OR "silent" "door"---if he is associated with Fortuna Major, he is Harry's pathway to enlightenment.
Note to nitpickies: I realize Dumbledore means bumblebee in Old English, no dungbombs, please.
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Elanor - Oct 28, 2004 7:40 am (#624 of 1121)
Great connections TBE and Hollywand! We're making progress indeed.
TBE, thanks a lot! I'm so happy to see you here !
More musing on the name meanings too:
Mme Hooch. We don't know her first name for sure. The Lexicon says that "Rolanda" is not canon (it comes from a game), but her family name is VERY interesting. According to my dictionary, Hooch means "gnôle" in French, that is to say the slang word for "eau-de-vie"... So, we can connect her to the wine/"water of life" symbol too, as we connected Hagrid before. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of her in the next books...
BTW, while *hum* tidying *hum*, I found a very interesting entry in a book ("Alchemy explained by its language") and it concerns the letter "H", which we encounter very often as names' initial in the books, beginning with Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Hogwarts...
This letter is a very important symbol in alchemy. The author even says that it is the key letter of the alchemical symbolism. I will try to summarize it but please forgive me if it seems a little obscure because, as often in alchemy (and in Jo's universe BTW), it is based on a lot of alliterations and puns, which are in French, and rather difficult to translate. OK, I try:
First, of course, it is the initial of Hermes.
It is also the symbol of the Salt by phonetic analogy between the letter "H" and the word "hâche" (it means "axe" - you pronounce both H and hâche exactly in the same way in French) because the Salt "hâche" (chops) the matter.
In fact, this letter is the cause of what was called "la cabale phonétique" (the phonetic cabbala) which has nothing to do with the Hebraic Kabbale. Here the word cabbala comes from the Greek word for "horse" (from a pun I can't translate properly, playing on the words "à cheval" for H-val and "selle" /"sel" - saddle-salt). It refers to a language which would allow men to "speak" with everything that lives; in a word, the alchemical language (which led to our actual slang BTW!).
The phonetic cabbale uses the sonority of the words. For example, when Rabelais names one of his books "L'île sonnante" ("the resonant island"), he means "lit le sonnant" ("read what sounds"), that is to say read the sonority of the words to understand properly... Which is exactly what Jo does with all the puns and alliterations she uses, don't you think so?
Alchemists also transformed this letter (as a written symbol) into the letters: N ("l' N" = laine phonetically - wool, refering to the Golden Fleece), M (for magnetism), a kind of sign a little like the Pi letter (for a process), which in reverse gives the letter U (for unity)...
Finally, with the 3 strokes you need to write H, they could write the number 4 for the 4 elements and all the symbolism this number refers to. I have to say that I love that one... I can't help but think to the Hogwarts crest: an H, in the middle of the 4 houses symbols...
So, I think that the fact that we find this letter so often in the books has nothing to do with chance; it is a clue telling us what language we have to use to understand this universe properly.
Well, sorry for this long rambling, I hope it is comprehensible, if it is not, just tell me, I'll try again!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 10:09 am (#625 of 1121)
Elanor your musings on the letter H reminded me of something related to the Cyrilic alphabet.
In the Cyrilic alphabet the letter N is written like the letter H in the English alphabet. I wonder does this seem to indicate a connection between Nick and Harry.
Also congratulations on your publication well done. A timeline I complied has been included on the Lexicon.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 626 to 650)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:58 am
Elanor - Oct 29, 2004 11:14 am (#626 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! Congratulations too!
I was thinking to the letter H again and I tried to remember all the significant names that have an H for initial. There are:
Characters: Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Helga Hufflepuff, Professor Hooch.
Owls: Hedwig, Hermes.
Places:Hogwarts, Hogsmead, Godric's Hollow.
A house: Hufflepuff
And, more far-fetched, a ghost: Nearly Headless Nick (interesting if we remember what Nathan wrote) and even a dragon: the Hungarian Horntail.
If this letter is indeed relevant, then we will hear more about Helga Hufflepuff in the next books. Hufflepuffs have been rather discreet till now, if we except Cedric, but they may become more important soon, especially since Jo began to put some of them more under the spotlight with the DA.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 3:33 pm (#627 of 1121)
Another set of observations
Observation 1: The death of Lily and James occurs 489 years after Nick's botched beheading.
When the numbers 4+8+9 are added together the sum total equals 21. When the same numbers are multiplied together the product equals 288. Both of these numbers are divisible by the number 3.
Observation 2: I was working with the positions on Dumbledore's watch that are repressented by the red dots namely 4,6,7, and 11.
If they are associated with a simple alphanumeric cipher the letters that result are meaningless.
If the positions are associated with months. The months that result using the Gregorian calendar are the following: April, June, July, and November.
If the positions use represent the zodiac: the following seven signs are indicated: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, and Sagittarius.
If the postions represent the various animals of the Chinese zodiac: the animals represented are the following: the Rabbit, the Snake, the Horse, and the Dog.
The sign of the dog could be representative of Sirius Black. The sign of the snake could represent Severus Snape as he is head of Slytherin House.
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zelmia - Oct 29, 2004 6:54 pm (#628 of 1121)
What about that Rabbit is a reference to book 1 ("Don't go rabbitin' around in things..."), Snake is book 2 (obviously), Horse is book 3 (as in Hippo-griff, which played a very significant part of the plot); and Dog is book 4, as in Sirius is now an ally (and a crucial one at that) and not an enemy to be feared.
Very far-fetched, I know. But just brain-storming, really.
********* Elanor, your analysis of the letter H was most enlightening (as always ). We haven't heard much from Madame Hooch in a while so I do hope we hear from her in the coming episodes. The only other H name that sprang to mind for me was Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff. She was the first one sorted in book 1.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 7:37 pm (#629 of 1121)
Zelmia, that is interesting idea. When I brought up the idea. I thought rabbit might be representative of the Weasley's because, rabbits tend to have large numbers of offspring.
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 12:05 pm (#630 of 1121)
That is interesting, the more because rabbits usually live in Burrows, don't they?
Thanks Zelmia! Graet catch, I had forgotten Hannah Abbot! If I remember well, she was not that brilliant till Ootp, but she is a DA member and a prefect in Ootp, so there may be more about her than meet the eye!
BTW, Nathan, I was thinking to what you wrote about the letter N written H in the cyrilic alphabet. It reminded me of the Agatha Christie's "Murder on the Orient-Express" in which there is a handkerchief with the letter H embroidered on it which was an evidence. In fact it belonged to the princess Dragomiroff named Nathalia but written with an H as she was Russian...
I've searched a little about the rabbit or the hare symbol (the symbols are often mixed). In a lot of cultures, the rabbit is bound to the Moon symbol. It represents vigilance (it is said that it sleeps with its eyes opened), fertility, speed and trust. In alchemy, it is very close to Mercury on its first stage, which is also bound to the Moon. At this moment, Mercury is the Puer (the child), with the emotional instability the Moon symbol suggests, but then it transcends itself, as Mercury (the god) transcended himself to become Hermes, the messenger of the gods.
Now that I think about it, this Hare symbol fits very well with Mr Weasley who has sometimes some childish reactions (in the positive way of the term, like with his enthusiasm for Muggles and their technology) but is able to transcend himself for his family and the Order. What do you think?
Speaking of the Weasleys, it is Molly's birthday today. She was born on the 30th of October, that is to say: 30-10, which leads us to the number 4 again...
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zelmia - Oct 30, 2004 12:52 pm (#631 of 1121)
Just wanted to say that I, too, thought immediately of Murder on the Orient Express for the same reasons as Elanor. That must mean something, don't you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 30, 2004 2:41 pm (#632 of 1121)
This is related to the rabbit. In Vietnam the rabbit symbol is replaced in the zodiac by the Cat
This is documented in Suzanne White's volumes on the subject of Chinese astrology.
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 2:53 pm (#633 of 1121)
Zelmia, it may well mean something... OK, it is far-fetched (please forgive me, it is nearly 1 a.m. here and my brain starts to be a little foggy ) but it made me think to Neville: his N initial could well hide a H symbol...
I'm sorry Nathan but I don't understand the connection between the rabbit and the cat. Please, would you tell me more about it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 30, 2004 3:12 pm (#634 of 1121)
Elanor,
Chinese legend holds that Buddha himself determined the order in which, the animals are ordered within the horoscope. On the day of the new year he called a counsel of all the animals whithin the kingdom but, only twelve animals attended, and the order in which they took their seats at the council is the order in which their places in the horoscope were determined.
In the Vietnamese versions of the legend Rabbit is replaced by the Cat.
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Solitaire - Oct 30, 2004 6:19 pm (#635 of 1121)
Elanor & Zelmia, it's funny that you mention Murder on the Orient Express. The second I read about the N/H connection, I immediately flew to that scene in the movie. Sorry I haven't anything to contribute to this thread, but I do enjoy it. Someday, perhaps ...
Solitaire
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 11:33 pm (#636 of 1121)
Hello Solitaire! I'm happy to see you here!
Nathan, thanks a lot for the explanations, I will search if there is something mentioned about this symbolism in my books this evening.
BTW, I was thinking to another H missing: Hollywand! BTW, I hope that your computer will be better soon, I would love to know what you think about that!
Speaking of pantheons, I wanted to ask something to Upulwan: I have read that Pavarti and Patil were both related to Hindu gods and that there are a lot of stories about their lives. It can't be a coincidence. Do you know their story? Could this story be another clue, as Nagini was?
Happy Halloween everyone!
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 5:46 am (#637 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, a Happy All Hallow's Eve and All Saints Day to you, and everyone who reads the thread. I am lurking for now, as my apple is still at the Genius Bar getting repaired. I wonder if it will have a little lightning bolt scar over the logo....I am also pleased that others are contributing to the dialog!
I noticed on Jo's site that one of the titles on the bookshelf is "Manx Mouse". Seems like a hirlarious pun on Wormtail: Man versus mouse sides of this animagus character, and also a reference to the Manx cat---a mouse that is born without or loses his tail. Hmmm.
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 6:03 am (#638 of 1121)
Elanor, since you found the riddle behind the door on Jo's website, don't you think the references are telling? Three key references seem to me to metaphorically read:
The spider web story draws toward its conclusion
The dragon takes an unexpected turn
The lion attains happiness
All of these themes we have been exploring on as the content of our discussion on alchemy, don't you think so?
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Elanor - Oct 31, 2004 10:20 am (#639 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand! I'm so happy to hear from you!
Yes, I think that those new clues may well tell us that we are on the right path. I loved chapter 2's title because "spinner" is very close to my name and I found it very funny (except from the "end" part...), but, seriously, it could be a reference to our Ariadne's thread again. It is chapter 2, so at the very beginning of the book and we know that Harry won't spend too much time with the Dursleys that summer. On the JKR site thread, someone has said that this title could be the name of a place. If that is true, and I know that it is a pure supposition, then this place could, symbolically, be the Ariadne's thread that will allow Harry to get out the Dursleys' maze he is stuck in, each and every summer.
I do agree about the meaning of the chapter 6' title: it may be the beginning of the ouroboros process for our dragon...
About chapter 14, you may be right indeed too! All I know is that it is some Latin words. Felix, felicis is an adjective which means happy or something which brings luck and happiness. I thought it might be a charm or a spell and someone said on JKR's thread (sorry I don't remember who) that the wizard who was the inventor of the cheering charm had Felix for first name.
But I have found some other details that are curious too in my Latin dictionary. Felix can be another word for filix which means fern and, by analogy, hair. It could be a pun, though I can't find which one...
Yet, the most interesting part is that "felix" is very close to "felis" which means "cat" and/or "weasel". So it can refer to a "happy cat", with the "feline" lion idea you mentioned, or "happy weasel" and be a connection to our Weasley family.
I know it is far-fetched, but it is so funny to penetrate the hidden meaning of these little clues! Thanks Jo! But please, please, give us the book now, we do need it! Please...
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 11:00 am (#640 of 1121)
I agree with those that suggest that Spinner's End could be a location; I used to hang out at Hatch End in Wealdstone, a tiny little suburb north of London. Spinner's End could also be a clue that this will be the site of the final actions of the story--returned to in Book Seven, if you take my meaning.
References to the cat could go in so many directions--I liked the suggestion that it could be a charm of sorts. It could involve the character that "rather looked like and old lion" this would refer to your comment above about the cat and the hair. Funny, it was a cat hair that was Hermione's undoing in the Polyjuice potion incident, so there's a nice connection there.
Crookshanks could finally get a hold of Wormtail---making him one happy Kneazle.
Draco Malfoy could be misled by his Hand of Glory---a detour he had not imagined.
The chapter titles made me optimistic and joyful, yet methinks perhaps book Six will still be full of wrenching twists and turns! ;-)
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legolas - Oct 31, 2004 11:14 am (#641 of 1121)
Bring it on.
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Elanor - Oct 31, 2004 1:01 pm (#642 of 1121)
I know what you mean Hollywand... I'm so happy too! I love your suggestions, BTW.
Welcome on the thread Legolas! We really had some fun this morning, searching for the clues, thank you so much for the help!
This was a great Halloween's treat Jo gave us today. She's the best!
EDIT: I've just realized something! We had to use a magnifying glass for getting the clue: could it be a subtile reference to a future prediction of Sybill in one of those chapters?
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 6:38 pm (#643 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, you are so charming! The magnifying glass could also refer to your earlier remarks about the "Sharp vision" of the alchemist, and a magnifying glass can be used to focus the sun's energy.
Another felix felis association---Minerva's animagus is a cat. So she could be extremely pleased with the progress her budding aurors are making in transfiguration. Ja?
There a dashing new wizard on the JKR site, too.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2004 8:07 am (#644 of 1121)
This is really not connected to alchemy, but since you're talking about the chapter titles, I think I know another possible meaning for Spinners End.
One of my specialties in my newsletter is showing the literary connections between HP and other famous literature. The rest of this is in invisible font (don't read this if you don't like potential spoilers!):
On “Long Theory” I’ve tried to show that the line of GG is probably a princely line, and that Harry is probably his descendent (yes, I know he’s not THE half-blood prince :-D). In one of my recent newsletters a couple of months ago, I pointed out that there are a lot of references to pointy things, wheels that spin, and spindly things. I believe this is a reference to Sleeping Beauty. Harry’s next birthday is his 16th birthday.
“Before the sun sets on her 16th birthday, the princess shall prick her finger on the pointed spindle of a spinning wheel, and die!”
But because of the magic of another fairy, it became an enchanted sleep, from which the princess was awakened by true love’s first kiss.
The end of a spinning wheel (a “spinner”) is a spindle!
I think Harry better check over his birthday presents this year!
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Elanor - Nov 1, 2004 9:03 am (#645 of 1121)
Hello RPS! I just answered your post on the JKR's site thread, LOL! That is interesting but a little scary for me as the word you wrote in italics is so close to my name, just add a "r" and that's it! But, since that moment, it reminded me another little clue I saw on a PoA sticker. I know it is not canon since it comes from the movie but it represents some candies the trio bought in Hogsmeade and, on it, these words are written: "spindle's spiders" with little drawings of spiders (don't wonder why I noticed it!)...
Hollywand, I like the connection between felix and Minerva, this is really promising!
Today, I was musing again in my books and I found something interesting concerning the stag symbol and his connections with James: he couldn't have been something else than a stag animagus:
- Since the Antiquity, it is bound to the symbol of the tree, because of its antlers, that is to say that it was the symbol of life which survives, the revival, the time that goes by. Interesting since this symbol is bound to James and still lives in Harry too.
- The stag is also a solar symbol because its antlers can also symbolize rays of sunlight, so that it is another solar/gold symbol bound to Harry too!
- In the Antiquity, it was said that the stag hated snakes and its coat was a kind of lucky charm against snakes' bites. The stag knows where the snake is and can make it get out of its hole before trample it underfoot. It reminded me of James knowing exactly how to make Snape "get outside his hole", that is to say make him wild with rage, when they were students...
- For the Celts, the stag was the messenger between the world of the gods and the one of men.
- In alchemy, it represents the transformation of the metal because of the myth of Acteon, the hunter transformed into a stag by Artemis. It is not bound to gold, but to the moon and the silver symbols. This is interesting because the stag, as Harry's patronus, is indeed the symbol of Harry's transformation in PoA. What do you think?
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2004 10:53 am (#646 of 1121)
Good stuff, Elanor! I've always loved the stag symbolism. I love the way JKR takes alchemy references and combines them with references to literature and mythology. It's just neat, the way it all comes together.
"Spindle's Spiders," huh? I'll have to watch for that when the movie comes out. I know it's not canon, but PoA has more clues in it than you can shake a wand at, so don't ignore them! Phoenix Song pointed out privately that the sphinx's riddle said that a spider would be a creature Harry would be unwilling to kiss (tee hee!).
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 1, 2004 3:11 pm (#647 of 1121)
I am curious are Ariadne and Arachne the same person in Greek mythology?
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Hollywand - Nov 1, 2004 3:29 pm (#648 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, I just wanted to say that I think your analogies are wonderful and poetic and nicely elided with the text.
I must also confess that I did notice your given name as "Au"(gold) "Rey" (King) "Spindler" as perhaps a poetic reference to the golden spider---and so, my questions that you might perhaps be our Drama Queen extraordinaire. In any case, your reading of the text is exquisite, pure gold.
I also encountered a charming Odeus on Mugglenet some months ago, who spoke with me at length in French, Latin and exquisite English in the guise of several characters. A whole play acted out, if you will. She spoke at length of the connection between Harry's vision and Lily's vision as a sort of parallel compassion metaphor. What an exquisite conversation it was, amidst the mudwrestling on Mugglenet. Then, J recommended the Lex on her site miraculously, and I ended up here, and the alchemy thread developed. It's been great! ;-) If the woman was not Jo I encountered on Mugglenet, the individual certainly had an impressive command of Latin, French and English at her fingertips, and several characters she created online. This was all right as the Pillar of Storge caper was underway.
Don't know what lead me to recount this now, it must be the effect of All Hallow's Eve and All Saint's Day--the Veil is very thin.....
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Elanor - Nov 1, 2004 11:41 pm (#649 of 1121)
Thank you so much Hollywand **blushing **. I would never had the idea of searching all these references without your help and the one of all the people here! It is thanks to Jo's site that I found the Lexicon too. If you ever read this Jo: thank you so much for HP of course but also for giving me the opportunity to meet such great people here!
Nathan, about Ariadne: Ariadne's thread is connected to spiders because the name of Ariadne comes from "arahné" in Greek, which gave "araignée " (spider) in French. Arachne (Araknê in Greek) means "the spider" but she is not the same character. She was a Lydian princess who was a great weaver. One day, as Athena was jalous of her, she changed her into a spider! Ariadne was the one who helped Theseus to get out the maze of the Minotaur thanks to her thread.
BTW, Hollywand, you gave me an idea: I think I have read something about the veil symbol some times ago that could be relevant here. I will search if I can find it again! I love that thread...
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Elanor - Nov 2, 2004 12:48 pm (#650 of 1121)
I found where I had read something about the veil symbol that was connected to alchemy: it was in Fulcanelli's "The mysteries of Cathedrals" in which he talks about stone statues that are, in fact, representations of Isis (or other goddesses that are nothing but Isis known under other names as Rhéa or Cybèle). Each time, she is represented veiled and, sometimes, she is represented with a key, with which she begins to draw back her veil. Lions are often with her too. Most of the time, the veil is black. She, through her black veil, is the symbol of the black materia prima, which was buried deeply in the earth. That's why those statues were kept in crypts, under the earth.
Now, if we remember what we know about the Death Chamber of the MoM, we find that :"the centre of it was sunken, forming a great stone pit some twenty fit deep." and in the middle of it, the archway "was hung with a tattered black curtain or veil which, despite the complete stillness of the cold surrounding air, was fluttering very slightly as though it had just been touched" (OotP, p.682, paperback edition). Curious, isn't it? The same symbols: the black veil, the stone, under the earth, the veil that is a little removed... And then it is Sirius BLACK that goes trough that veil.
I can't help but think that there is a metaphor here, the metaphor of the black process (nigredo) Harry has to get through to move on his path, the one that will allow the first transformation of the black materia prima into the philosopher's stone. This black Materia Prima is fertile but this fertility and its spirit is hidden, hence the veil symbol. Here, the veil moves and it engulfs the Black Sirius. End of the black process.
Symbolically, from this darkness, the one that some alchemists called "the descent into hell", Harry will be able, at the end of the next processes, to come to life again. That's why Sirius had to die. There were no other way.
Edit: thanks for reminding me of the veil Hollywand! BTW, it would be great if your friend Odeus would find her way to the Lexicon, she would love it!
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Thanks Nathan! Congratulations too!
I was thinking to the letter H again and I tried to remember all the significant names that have an H for initial. There are:
Characters: Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Helga Hufflepuff, Professor Hooch.
Owls: Hedwig, Hermes.
Places:Hogwarts, Hogsmead, Godric's Hollow.
A house: Hufflepuff
And, more far-fetched, a ghost: Nearly Headless Nick (interesting if we remember what Nathan wrote) and even a dragon: the Hungarian Horntail.
If this letter is indeed relevant, then we will hear more about Helga Hufflepuff in the next books. Hufflepuffs have been rather discreet till now, if we except Cedric, but they may become more important soon, especially since Jo began to put some of them more under the spotlight with the DA.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 3:33 pm (#627 of 1121)
Another set of observations
Observation 1: The death of Lily and James occurs 489 years after Nick's botched beheading.
When the numbers 4+8+9 are added together the sum total equals 21. When the same numbers are multiplied together the product equals 288. Both of these numbers are divisible by the number 3.
Observation 2: I was working with the positions on Dumbledore's watch that are repressented by the red dots namely 4,6,7, and 11.
If they are associated with a simple alphanumeric cipher the letters that result are meaningless.
If the positions are associated with months. The months that result using the Gregorian calendar are the following: April, June, July, and November.
If the positions use represent the zodiac: the following seven signs are indicated: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, and Sagittarius.
If the postions represent the various animals of the Chinese zodiac: the animals represented are the following: the Rabbit, the Snake, the Horse, and the Dog.
The sign of the dog could be representative of Sirius Black. The sign of the snake could represent Severus Snape as he is head of Slytherin House.
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zelmia - Oct 29, 2004 6:54 pm (#628 of 1121)
What about that Rabbit is a reference to book 1 ("Don't go rabbitin' around in things..."), Snake is book 2 (obviously), Horse is book 3 (as in Hippo-griff, which played a very significant part of the plot); and Dog is book 4, as in Sirius is now an ally (and a crucial one at that) and not an enemy to be feared.
Very far-fetched, I know. But just brain-storming, really.
********* Elanor, your analysis of the letter H was most enlightening (as always ). We haven't heard much from Madame Hooch in a while so I do hope we hear from her in the coming episodes. The only other H name that sprang to mind for me was Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff. She was the first one sorted in book 1.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2004 7:37 pm (#629 of 1121)
Zelmia, that is interesting idea. When I brought up the idea. I thought rabbit might be representative of the Weasley's because, rabbits tend to have large numbers of offspring.
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 12:05 pm (#630 of 1121)
That is interesting, the more because rabbits usually live in Burrows, don't they?
Thanks Zelmia! Graet catch, I had forgotten Hannah Abbot! If I remember well, she was not that brilliant till Ootp, but she is a DA member and a prefect in Ootp, so there may be more about her than meet the eye!
BTW, Nathan, I was thinking to what you wrote about the letter N written H in the cyrilic alphabet. It reminded me of the Agatha Christie's "Murder on the Orient-Express" in which there is a handkerchief with the letter H embroidered on it which was an evidence. In fact it belonged to the princess Dragomiroff named Nathalia but written with an H as she was Russian...
I've searched a little about the rabbit or the hare symbol (the symbols are often mixed). In a lot of cultures, the rabbit is bound to the Moon symbol. It represents vigilance (it is said that it sleeps with its eyes opened), fertility, speed and trust. In alchemy, it is very close to Mercury on its first stage, which is also bound to the Moon. At this moment, Mercury is the Puer (the child), with the emotional instability the Moon symbol suggests, but then it transcends itself, as Mercury (the god) transcended himself to become Hermes, the messenger of the gods.
Now that I think about it, this Hare symbol fits very well with Mr Weasley who has sometimes some childish reactions (in the positive way of the term, like with his enthusiasm for Muggles and their technology) but is able to transcend himself for his family and the Order. What do you think?
Speaking of the Weasleys, it is Molly's birthday today. She was born on the 30th of October, that is to say: 30-10, which leads us to the number 4 again...
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zelmia - Oct 30, 2004 12:52 pm (#631 of 1121)
Just wanted to say that I, too, thought immediately of Murder on the Orient Express for the same reasons as Elanor. That must mean something, don't you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 30, 2004 2:41 pm (#632 of 1121)
This is related to the rabbit. In Vietnam the rabbit symbol is replaced in the zodiac by the Cat
This is documented in Suzanne White's volumes on the subject of Chinese astrology.
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 2:53 pm (#633 of 1121)
Zelmia, it may well mean something... OK, it is far-fetched (please forgive me, it is nearly 1 a.m. here and my brain starts to be a little foggy ) but it made me think to Neville: his N initial could well hide a H symbol...
I'm sorry Nathan but I don't understand the connection between the rabbit and the cat. Please, would you tell me more about it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 30, 2004 3:12 pm (#634 of 1121)
Elanor,
Chinese legend holds that Buddha himself determined the order in which, the animals are ordered within the horoscope. On the day of the new year he called a counsel of all the animals whithin the kingdom but, only twelve animals attended, and the order in which they took their seats at the council is the order in which their places in the horoscope were determined.
In the Vietnamese versions of the legend Rabbit is replaced by the Cat.
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Solitaire - Oct 30, 2004 6:19 pm (#635 of 1121)
Elanor & Zelmia, it's funny that you mention Murder on the Orient Express. The second I read about the N/H connection, I immediately flew to that scene in the movie. Sorry I haven't anything to contribute to this thread, but I do enjoy it. Someday, perhaps ...
Solitaire
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Elanor - Oct 30, 2004 11:33 pm (#636 of 1121)
Hello Solitaire! I'm happy to see you here!
Nathan, thanks a lot for the explanations, I will search if there is something mentioned about this symbolism in my books this evening.
BTW, I was thinking to another H missing: Hollywand! BTW, I hope that your computer will be better soon, I would love to know what you think about that!
Speaking of pantheons, I wanted to ask something to Upulwan: I have read that Pavarti and Patil were both related to Hindu gods and that there are a lot of stories about their lives. It can't be a coincidence. Do you know their story? Could this story be another clue, as Nagini was?
Happy Halloween everyone!
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 5:46 am (#637 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, a Happy All Hallow's Eve and All Saints Day to you, and everyone who reads the thread. I am lurking for now, as my apple is still at the Genius Bar getting repaired. I wonder if it will have a little lightning bolt scar over the logo....I am also pleased that others are contributing to the dialog!
I noticed on Jo's site that one of the titles on the bookshelf is "Manx Mouse". Seems like a hirlarious pun on Wormtail: Man versus mouse sides of this animagus character, and also a reference to the Manx cat---a mouse that is born without or loses his tail. Hmmm.
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 6:03 am (#638 of 1121)
Elanor, since you found the riddle behind the door on Jo's website, don't you think the references are telling? Three key references seem to me to metaphorically read:
The spider web story draws toward its conclusion
The dragon takes an unexpected turn
The lion attains happiness
All of these themes we have been exploring on as the content of our discussion on alchemy, don't you think so?
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Elanor - Oct 31, 2004 10:20 am (#639 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand! I'm so happy to hear from you!
Yes, I think that those new clues may well tell us that we are on the right path. I loved chapter 2's title because "spinner" is very close to my name and I found it very funny (except from the "end" part...), but, seriously, it could be a reference to our Ariadne's thread again. It is chapter 2, so at the very beginning of the book and we know that Harry won't spend too much time with the Dursleys that summer. On the JKR site thread, someone has said that this title could be the name of a place. If that is true, and I know that it is a pure supposition, then this place could, symbolically, be the Ariadne's thread that will allow Harry to get out the Dursleys' maze he is stuck in, each and every summer.
I do agree about the meaning of the chapter 6' title: it may be the beginning of the ouroboros process for our dragon...
About chapter 14, you may be right indeed too! All I know is that it is some Latin words. Felix, felicis is an adjective which means happy or something which brings luck and happiness. I thought it might be a charm or a spell and someone said on JKR's thread (sorry I don't remember who) that the wizard who was the inventor of the cheering charm had Felix for first name.
But I have found some other details that are curious too in my Latin dictionary. Felix can be another word for filix which means fern and, by analogy, hair. It could be a pun, though I can't find which one...
Yet, the most interesting part is that "felix" is very close to "felis" which means "cat" and/or "weasel". So it can refer to a "happy cat", with the "feline" lion idea you mentioned, or "happy weasel" and be a connection to our Weasley family.
I know it is far-fetched, but it is so funny to penetrate the hidden meaning of these little clues! Thanks Jo! But please, please, give us the book now, we do need it! Please...
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 11:00 am (#640 of 1121)
I agree with those that suggest that Spinner's End could be a location; I used to hang out at Hatch End in Wealdstone, a tiny little suburb north of London. Spinner's End could also be a clue that this will be the site of the final actions of the story--returned to in Book Seven, if you take my meaning.
References to the cat could go in so many directions--I liked the suggestion that it could be a charm of sorts. It could involve the character that "rather looked like and old lion" this would refer to your comment above about the cat and the hair. Funny, it was a cat hair that was Hermione's undoing in the Polyjuice potion incident, so there's a nice connection there.
Crookshanks could finally get a hold of Wormtail---making him one happy Kneazle.
Draco Malfoy could be misled by his Hand of Glory---a detour he had not imagined.
The chapter titles made me optimistic and joyful, yet methinks perhaps book Six will still be full of wrenching twists and turns! ;-)
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legolas - Oct 31, 2004 11:14 am (#641 of 1121)
Bring it on.
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Elanor - Oct 31, 2004 1:01 pm (#642 of 1121)
I know what you mean Hollywand... I'm so happy too! I love your suggestions, BTW.
Welcome on the thread Legolas! We really had some fun this morning, searching for the clues, thank you so much for the help!
This was a great Halloween's treat Jo gave us today. She's the best!
EDIT: I've just realized something! We had to use a magnifying glass for getting the clue: could it be a subtile reference to a future prediction of Sybill in one of those chapters?
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Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 6:38 pm (#643 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, you are so charming! The magnifying glass could also refer to your earlier remarks about the "Sharp vision" of the alchemist, and a magnifying glass can be used to focus the sun's energy.
Another felix felis association---Minerva's animagus is a cat. So she could be extremely pleased with the progress her budding aurors are making in transfiguration. Ja?
There a dashing new wizard on the JKR site, too.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2004 8:07 am (#644 of 1121)
This is really not connected to alchemy, but since you're talking about the chapter titles, I think I know another possible meaning for Spinners End.
One of my specialties in my newsletter is showing the literary connections between HP and other famous literature. The rest of this is in invisible font (don't read this if you don't like potential spoilers!):
On “Long Theory” I’ve tried to show that the line of GG is probably a princely line, and that Harry is probably his descendent (yes, I know he’s not THE half-blood prince :-D). In one of my recent newsletters a couple of months ago, I pointed out that there are a lot of references to pointy things, wheels that spin, and spindly things. I believe this is a reference to Sleeping Beauty. Harry’s next birthday is his 16th birthday.
“Before the sun sets on her 16th birthday, the princess shall prick her finger on the pointed spindle of a spinning wheel, and die!”
But because of the magic of another fairy, it became an enchanted sleep, from which the princess was awakened by true love’s first kiss.
The end of a spinning wheel (a “spinner”) is a spindle!
I think Harry better check over his birthday presents this year!
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Elanor - Nov 1, 2004 9:03 am (#645 of 1121)
Hello RPS! I just answered your post on the JKR's site thread, LOL! That is interesting but a little scary for me as the word you wrote in italics is so close to my name, just add a "r" and that's it! But, since that moment, it reminded me another little clue I saw on a PoA sticker. I know it is not canon since it comes from the movie but it represents some candies the trio bought in Hogsmeade and, on it, these words are written: "spindle's spiders" with little drawings of spiders (don't wonder why I noticed it!)...
Hollywand, I like the connection between felix and Minerva, this is really promising!
Today, I was musing again in my books and I found something interesting concerning the stag symbol and his connections with James: he couldn't have been something else than a stag animagus:
- Since the Antiquity, it is bound to the symbol of the tree, because of its antlers, that is to say that it was the symbol of life which survives, the revival, the time that goes by. Interesting since this symbol is bound to James and still lives in Harry too.
- The stag is also a solar symbol because its antlers can also symbolize rays of sunlight, so that it is another solar/gold symbol bound to Harry too!
- In the Antiquity, it was said that the stag hated snakes and its coat was a kind of lucky charm against snakes' bites. The stag knows where the snake is and can make it get out of its hole before trample it underfoot. It reminded me of James knowing exactly how to make Snape "get outside his hole", that is to say make him wild with rage, when they were students...
- For the Celts, the stag was the messenger between the world of the gods and the one of men.
- In alchemy, it represents the transformation of the metal because of the myth of Acteon, the hunter transformed into a stag by Artemis. It is not bound to gold, but to the moon and the silver symbols. This is interesting because the stag, as Harry's patronus, is indeed the symbol of Harry's transformation in PoA. What do you think?
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2004 10:53 am (#646 of 1121)
Good stuff, Elanor! I've always loved the stag symbolism. I love the way JKR takes alchemy references and combines them with references to literature and mythology. It's just neat, the way it all comes together.
"Spindle's Spiders," huh? I'll have to watch for that when the movie comes out. I know it's not canon, but PoA has more clues in it than you can shake a wand at, so don't ignore them! Phoenix Song pointed out privately that the sphinx's riddle said that a spider would be a creature Harry would be unwilling to kiss (tee hee!).
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 1, 2004 3:11 pm (#647 of 1121)
I am curious are Ariadne and Arachne the same person in Greek mythology?
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Hollywand - Nov 1, 2004 3:29 pm (#648 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, I just wanted to say that I think your analogies are wonderful and poetic and nicely elided with the text.
I must also confess that I did notice your given name as "Au"(gold) "Rey" (King) "Spindler" as perhaps a poetic reference to the golden spider---and so, my questions that you might perhaps be our Drama Queen extraordinaire. In any case, your reading of the text is exquisite, pure gold.
I also encountered a charming Odeus on Mugglenet some months ago, who spoke with me at length in French, Latin and exquisite English in the guise of several characters. A whole play acted out, if you will. She spoke at length of the connection between Harry's vision and Lily's vision as a sort of parallel compassion metaphor. What an exquisite conversation it was, amidst the mudwrestling on Mugglenet. Then, J recommended the Lex on her site miraculously, and I ended up here, and the alchemy thread developed. It's been great! ;-) If the woman was not Jo I encountered on Mugglenet, the individual certainly had an impressive command of Latin, French and English at her fingertips, and several characters she created online. This was all right as the Pillar of Storge caper was underway.
Don't know what lead me to recount this now, it must be the effect of All Hallow's Eve and All Saint's Day--the Veil is very thin.....
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Elanor - Nov 1, 2004 11:41 pm (#649 of 1121)
Thank you so much Hollywand **blushing **. I would never had the idea of searching all these references without your help and the one of all the people here! It is thanks to Jo's site that I found the Lexicon too. If you ever read this Jo: thank you so much for HP of course but also for giving me the opportunity to meet such great people here!
Nathan, about Ariadne: Ariadne's thread is connected to spiders because the name of Ariadne comes from "arahné" in Greek, which gave "araignée " (spider) in French. Arachne (Araknê in Greek) means "the spider" but she is not the same character. She was a Lydian princess who was a great weaver. One day, as Athena was jalous of her, she changed her into a spider! Ariadne was the one who helped Theseus to get out the maze of the Minotaur thanks to her thread.
BTW, Hollywand, you gave me an idea: I think I have read something about the veil symbol some times ago that could be relevant here. I will search if I can find it again! I love that thread...
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Elanor - Nov 2, 2004 12:48 pm (#650 of 1121)
I found where I had read something about the veil symbol that was connected to alchemy: it was in Fulcanelli's "The mysteries of Cathedrals" in which he talks about stone statues that are, in fact, representations of Isis (or other goddesses that are nothing but Isis known under other names as Rhéa or Cybèle). Each time, she is represented veiled and, sometimes, she is represented with a key, with which she begins to draw back her veil. Lions are often with her too. Most of the time, the veil is black. She, through her black veil, is the symbol of the black materia prima, which was buried deeply in the earth. That's why those statues were kept in crypts, under the earth.
Now, if we remember what we know about the Death Chamber of the MoM, we find that :"the centre of it was sunken, forming a great stone pit some twenty fit deep." and in the middle of it, the archway "was hung with a tattered black curtain or veil which, despite the complete stillness of the cold surrounding air, was fluttering very slightly as though it had just been touched" (OotP, p.682, paperback edition). Curious, isn't it? The same symbols: the black veil, the stone, under the earth, the veil that is a little removed... And then it is Sirius BLACK that goes trough that veil.
I can't help but think that there is a metaphor here, the metaphor of the black process (nigredo) Harry has to get through to move on his path, the one that will allow the first transformation of the black materia prima into the philosopher's stone. This black Materia Prima is fertile but this fertility and its spirit is hidden, hence the veil symbol. Here, the veil moves and it engulfs the Black Sirius. End of the black process.
Symbolically, from this darkness, the one that some alchemists called "the descent into hell", Harry will be able, at the end of the next processes, to come to life again. That's why Sirius had to die. There were no other way.
Edit: thanks for reminding me of the veil Hollywand! BTW, it would be great if your friend Odeus would find her way to the Lexicon, she would love it!
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 651 to 675)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:59 am
Hollywand - Nov 2, 2004 6:11 pm (#651 of 1121)
Hi Elanor. What a terrific analysis of the role Sirius plays in the Nigredo. It makes sense to me that an Isis figure would be underground in a crypt, since her origin is with the Egyptian concept of "death as the next great journey" to paraphrase Albus Dumbledore.
Isis reconstructs Osirus. Here I am intrigued by your mention that another name for Isis is Cybele. Could this be a reference to Sibyll Trelawney? She does see Sirius as a Grim initially; will she be able to reconstruct Sirius? Will her death also play an important role in the plot advancement?
I concur with your idea that Sirius' death is a sort of absolute zero nadir for Harry's psyche. Here I am intrigued by our latest clue Felix Felicis as perhaps ironic. At Sirius' death, Dumbledore tries to get Harry to see a transformational element to his grieving, but he will have none of it. He is angry, bleak. I think this is a sort of total calcination for Harry, and he will rise from the ashes of this destructive encounter with the dark lord.
By the way, on Odeus, or NoMan, to use the English translation of the Greek. I am not convinced tha Odeus is not amongst us.
What better place to kick about ideas and rough spots in the text than by making sport of the Lex muggles? :-)
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Solitaire - Nov 2, 2004 9:42 pm (#652 of 1121)
One version of the Arachne myth says Arachne was punished because of her hubris. She boasted that she was as great a weaver as Athena, and she challenged Athena to a contest. She took as her subject matter stories of the gods which were less than flattering to them. This angered the gods.. Her punishment was to be turned into a spider who would weave forever.
There are a couple of other versions of the Arachne myth. One has Athena saving her life at the last minute, turning her into a spider. Another tells how Arachne hanged herself, and Athena took her lifeless body and transformed it to that of a spider, so she and her descendants would weave forever.
The bottom line is that her hubris angered the gods and cost her life. I wonder if hubris will be involved somehow. We have talked about the Macbeth story, and hubris was certainly involved there.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 3, 2004 6:13 am (#653 of 1121)
Yea! Another newsletter in the can!
Elanor, I made a lot of interesting connections with colors in Harry Potter and the spiritual transformation of alchemy yesterday that ended up in the newsletter. Thanks for reminding me to add that bit.
I realized yesterday that black, as a color in HP, is not connected to death, but to those who have not begun the spiritual journey (or those who are refusing to make it, like Voldemort and the Death Eaters). Voldemort wouldn't be wearing the death color -- he's fleeing from death! The Hogwarts students wear black because they have yet to begin their spiritual journeys.
From Phoenix Song's recent research, the color of death (that is spiritual death, connected to rebirth) is white, not black. Those who "die" and are reborn wear white (thus Albus Dumbledore). The Order of the Phoenix seems to be tied in with life, change, and transformation. So we start with the Uninitiated (in black), pass through life (change, the Order), undergo spiritual death (white), then reach adulthood (gold).
Ooooh, I'm so excited! Thank you to all of you who've dug up all this great stuff. I've started a series of articles in my newsletter on alchemy. (As promised, Hollywand, I've given all of you the well-deserved credit for your wonderful research. I'm fortunate to have all this; just writing the newsletter takes enough time -- all this research would be impossible!)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 3, 2004 7:02 am (#654 of 1121)
Solitaire an excellent observation. I wonder if Hubris played a part in halting the progression of not only Sirius and Severus along the path toward enlightenment but, Voldemort as well.
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 12:09 pm (#655 of 1121)
Hi everyone! Great thoughts here!
Hollywand: I've searched about Cybele and Sibyll and their stories seem not to be connected as far as I know. Cybele's cult started in Phrygia (she is connected with the Mother-Goddesses cults). She was represented by a black stone. I won't tell you her whole story because it may be a little crude, but let just say that she was a symbol of revival and that her cult needed her male priests to do the "sacrifice" of a certain part of their body. Hence her connection with Isis.
But Sibyll is very different. In fact, there were several Sibylls (at least 10 of them) but they were all prophetesses who were known for making predictions about disasters, monsters, sacrifices... These ones fit rather well with our Sibyll. A funny detail I found: they all had names and the sibyll of Phrygia was named Albunea... BTW, her grand-grand-grand mother, the famous seer, was named Cassandra. Cassandra belongs to the Greek pantheon. She was a seer. Apollon gave her that gift but, as she offended him, he changed it: she could indeed predict the future, but nobody would believe her. I wonder if we will hear about her prophecies in the next books...
BTW, I do agree about the calcination process! That is exactly that, especially the part concerning the fact that Harry will rise from his ashes because, just after Sirius death, Fawkes sacrifices himself for DD in the MoM and starts to rise from his ashes too. It is just as if the story of Harry and Fawkes were melting from that point: symbolically, they will rise from their ashes together in the next books.
Solitaire: great catch about the hubris too! One of the qualities an alchemist had to have to succeed was meant to be humility. The lack of it is certainly one of the reasons Voldemort failed to obtain the Philosopher's Stone as Nathan said.
RPS: Congratulations for finishing the newsletter! White is indeed very important in alchemy, it means that the black process has ended and that the alchemist is indeed on the right path to the philosopher's stone.
BTW, you gave me an idea: I've searched more details about the white process in alchemy and it led me to the LILY symbol, which is also an alchemical one (albedo)! It became the symbol of pure love and a royal symbol too. Its symbolism also says that it outshines other flowers but not lives for a very long time. It is also said that lily was meant to chase away snakes... It would be logical that we would hear more of the white lily in the next books, don't you think so? Oh, I love that!
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zelmia - Nov 3, 2004 7:37 pm (#656 of 1121)
I seem to recall that one of the plates in Levi's book describes the image of a group of snakes slithering through the tall grass next to a river, under a tree... There are lillies growing there under the tree, I think... Then above it all Mercury is floating/flying away from Saturn in the form of and old man/Father Time...
Of course, I could be confusing all the images I've been studying recently for this topic.
Speaking of snakes, once again I pose the question about why Voldemort is so connected with snakes - the embodiment of the perfected process - when he has refused to even begin the journey? He is full of Hubris and Animus... Is there such a thing as the ANTI-Stone?? Because if so, it seems Voldemort is well on his way to attainment - if he hasn't reached it already.
Incidentally, there is a wonderful book by Knut Hamson called The Sybil. I highly recommend this, as well as any of his other novels.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 4, 2004 8:13 am (#657 of 1121)
The anti-stone... :-D
Since the journey is sort of cyclical, I don't think there COULD be an anti-stone. Voldie's sort of sitting there, refusing to move...
In our research, snakes are connected to the revelation of secrets, that which is hidden. (At least, that's the meaning of snakes in the text; you'll have to talk to our knowledgeable alchemy experts for what snakes represent in alchemy.) And Voldemort is very much interested in learning what is hidden; Dumbledore said that he may be the most knowledgeable wizard in the world. But while one must have some knowledge, it doesn't seem to me that knowledge is as much a prerequiste to the spiritual journey as the willingness to sacrifice, to give up what one is holding on to. That's what Harry is having to do, and that's what Voldemort is refusing to do.
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Elanor - Nov 4, 2004 1:00 pm (#658 of 1121)
Hello! Zelmia, I would love to see this image! As for the snake symbol, I think that we have to remember that it is one and several at the same time, in a word ambivalent. The Voldemort that we know seems not to be ambivalent, but I think it is important not to forget that he was Tom Riddle once, the abandoned kid who found in Dark Arts a reason to live. The Tom Riddle we met at 16 in CoS was already evil but was he when he entered Hogwarts? Who did he meet there who taught him the dark arts? He certainly didn't start to learn them in a Muggle orphanage. I put some hope in that forgotten Tom Riddle because DD keeps calling him Tom - a human name - as if he was trying to talk to that part of him. This part is certainly to be connected to the "half forgotten friend" feeling Harry had once in CoS. Tom Riddle's lost humanity may well be Voldemort's end. Hence the snake symbol, the pair of opposite.
RPS: I do agree about the willingness to sacrifice: this is exactly the symbolism of the black process!
BTW, yesterday I was searching for a quote in PS and I realized that Jo had given us so many clues about alchemy connections! In "the journey from platform nine and three-quarters" chapter, when Harry and Ron talk about chocolate cards, they name those wizards: DD and Flamel of course but also Agrippa (that Ron mentions 3 times!), Ptolemy, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberic Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin and Cliodna.
Amongst those wizards, 3 are historic characters and were really great alchemists: Nicolas Flamel, Paracelsus and Cornelius Agrippa! If we add DD to them "famous for [...] his work on alchemy" (p.77 UK papaerbacks edition), that makes 4 alchemists named! But they are not just any alchemists: these ones really counted and made alchemy progress. I will search more about them in the next days, it might be important!
Just a funny detail about Cornelius Agrippa: as most of the alchemists, he travelled a lot and worked in a lot of European countries. When he was in France, he was named Corneille Agrippa and Corneille means "carrion crow"! So, I thought to the other Cornelius, Cornelius Fudge: if we see him as a carrion crow too, then he is connected to the black/nigredo symbol too. We already said that the battle in the MoM in OotP was the end of the Black process: Fudge's name fits very well with that! He was the "black" minister for magic during the 5 first books and his career as minister is ending at the MoM battle too. What do you think?
If we look at the other wizards mentioned: 2 belong to the Arthurian cycle (Merlin and Morgana), one may be a reference to the Niebelungen story (Alberic), one is connected to the Celt mythology (Cliodna) and one is connected to the Greek mythology: Circe. In one and single page, Jo gives us all the references she will use in her books (or at least most of them)!
BTW, I found something amazing about Circe. She was a Greek witch, who was used to turn the men she loved into animals. She used to turn the girls those men loved before into monsters too, including a giant octopus who was once a girl named Scylla... Giant squid anyone??? Even more interesting, she had a crush on Ulysses who managed to avoid her magic thanks to Hermes (well, well!) who gave him a magical plant named MOLY... I told you: truly amazing... Jo is a great witch indeed.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 4, 2004 5:21 pm (#659 of 1121)
Wow Elanor! That post will take more to digest than a stoat sandwich!
50 points for your house!
Amazing references!
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zelmia - Nov 4, 2004 7:38 pm (#660 of 1121)
Paracelsus is credited with the western concept of homeopathy - that is, the treating the body and mind as a whole, rather than just the symptoms of illness. He is attributed as being the first to use both modern chemistry AND modern medicinal concepts, even before either of these had a real standard.
Elanor, I like your explanation of the Tom Riddle/Voldemort/Snake connection. At last I have something I can use!
Unfortunately, some of the emblems I wanted to link to to show what I am talking about are protected so I can't. Here is the page where you can find some of the emblems though: IMAGE GALLERY
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Upulwan - Nov 5, 2004 4:23 am (#661 of 1121)
Oh dear. About quarter of a million years ago Elanor asked me a question about Padma and Parvati...I'm so sorry Elanor, I wasn't ignoring you, just that my computer was behaving like a teenager, totally unresponsive and uncooperative, it's only today that I got it back on!
So sorry, but here goes what I know, if you're still interested.
Parvati means 'mountain', and Parvati is the consort of the god Shiva, who is THE important force in the Hindu universe, next to his twin Vishnu. Shiva and Vishnu are opposing forces, Shiva being a centrifugal force, full of contradictions, and Vishnu being the centripetal force, of harmony. Shiva is referred to as 'Shiva the Destroyer' (I just love that phrase by the way, one of my favourite phrases in the world I don't know why, since I'm neither Hindu nor Indian
), and Vishnu is the 'Preserver'. Shiva breaks things down, flings them around the universe and Vishnu brings them together. It's important to understand here that the dichotomy doesn't stand for good and evil: Shiva's 'flinging' is what distributes life in the universe, and Vishnu steps in to hold the balance. Very similar to Nietzche's Dionysian and Apollinian principles if you're familiar with that.
Now the snake is associated with Vishnu as a symbol of wisdom and re-incarnation (Vishnu is the one with nine 'Avatars': avatar in sanskrit means 'ghost' and is associated with reincarnation. Within the lifetime of the universe Vishnu comes to being in 9 forms).
To get to the point, 'Padma' is associated with Vishnu in two ways. First, 'padma' means flower, but more specifically the lotus which is also a symbol of Vishnu. (it's a type of lotus that's in my avatar by the way) Second, Vishnu's consort, Lakshmi, is sometimes known as Padma.
So to summarise, we have the 'twins', Padma and Parvati Patil, who reflect the 'twins' that are Vishnu and Shiva. Rather neat, Jo certainly doesn't do things half way.
So I hope that helps.
Just something slightly unrelated to Hindu mythology but extremely intriguing that I accidentally stumbled upon the other day, the Phoenician alphabet (from which the modern latin alphabet is derived) depicts the letter N with the pictogram 'Nun', which means 'snake': And guess what it looks like - a lightning bolt scar, or 'N' rotated and upended. I nearly felt out my chair when I saw the diagram for this, the word 'snake', next to it.
Coincidence? Uh-uh.
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Elanor - Nov 5, 2004 12:52 pm (#662 of 1121)
Thank you so much Upulwan! These are amazing details indeed! I think just the way you are: Jo does nothing by chance. It is just up to us to figure out why she did that...
I love the detail about the phoenician letter! If we remember that the letter N can also represent the letter H it makes the whole thing just amazing! BTW, I'm happy that you too have funny reactions while finding those kind of clues. Usually, I start to laugh aloud all alone saying "Jo: you're the best!".
About Parvati and Padma who reflect the 'twins' that are Vishnu and Shiva: that is a great detail! You said that they are opposing forces. That could perfectly explain why the twins are not in the same house because their "priorities" are not the same even if they are complementary, as the Hogwarts houses are. BTW, it is very interesting that Padma means lotus. I have checked and found that, symbolically, the lotus has the same meaning that the Lily in Europe! It can even be connected with alchemy in oriental countries: they said that the aim of alchemy was the opening of "golden flower", an extreme lotus.
Zelmia: thank you for the link! The images are impressive: I will have more time to look at them this weekend. I agree about Paracelsus: he was a great mind. I have found interesting things about him. I will try and post them tomorrow.
And thanks for the points TBE! School had started again yesterday, it was hard and I had to take it out on something: doing researches for the thread is the best thing I have found! I guess I work better if I am under pressure. Let's frighten me with a dragon next time and I may find WHO was turned into the Giant Squid... So, do you think I can have the stoat sandwich too? You know... for the dragon...
So thanks again everybody! You're the best!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 5, 2004 2:59 pm (#663 of 1121)
LOL! One stoat sandwich coming up! Trust me, mine are better than than the ones Hagrid offered the Trio.
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Upulwan - Nov 6, 2004 12:19 am (#664 of 1121)
Glad to be of help, Elanor, and hope the dragon was happy with TBE's gourmet stoat sandwich
What you mentioned about the lotus and lily was very interesting, and you're right, the lotus is one of the main floral icons in many Oriental literatures/mythology. (And often it's called a water lily)The lotus is actually very heavily associated with the Buddha due to a specific property of the flower. It grows in the mud, but in blossoming, it rises above the mud: this is likened to the Buddha being born into the world (the 'mud' of birth, death and decay), but rising above it through his Enlightenment (Nirvana).
I don't know where I'm going with this, and we know so little about Lily to make any substantial connections, but may be we'll find in Book 6 that her significance is in her having 'risen above' something?
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 6, 2004 5:20 am (#665 of 1121)
Crazed Writer
Oh my gosh, what I've been missing the past few days; Elanor and Upulwan, your posts left me laughing and breathless. Now if only my daughter were here to share all that with...
Seems to me that the calcination of the "wet way" can be depicted by a white lily, can't it -- a white flower growing out of the black mud?
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Joelle - Nov 6, 2004 10:21 am (#666 of 1121)
Upulwan--while I know that Pravati was Shiva's consort, I'm currently studying Hinduism, and I dont think that you can say Shiva and Visnu are twins. They aren't In fact they are diametrically opposed. Shiva comes from the Vedic god Rudra while Visnu comes from the Vedic god Indra. If anything they seem to be opposites, and it is only in the Sects that believe Shiva is The conundrum of opposites that you can even consider them brothers.
To those who Vaisnava or Shiava each deity reigns supreme. You cannot say that one or the other was supreme. There is a another god involved called Brahma who along with Visnu, and Shiva form a kind of Hinduism Trinity.
I can see this more as representing why Padma and Parvati are not in the same house.
This is not suggesting that the lotus, lily imagery doesnt work, I think that it still does, I just think it has different beginnings but the same ending. If that makes any sense?
-Joelle
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Elanor - Nov 7, 2004 8:44 am (#667 of 1121)
Thanks for all the information about the lotus/lily connections! I love the image of the lily for the "wet way" of alchemy. Very good catch!
I have made some researches about Paracelsus and Cornelius Agrippa and this is what I found:
Heinrich-Cornelius Agrippa - Corneille (carrion crow) Agrippa in French: (1486-1535). He is a very mysterious man, born in Cologne, who travelled in Europe during all his life for his researches and, maybe, for organizing a secret society. We find him in Germany, England, Italy, France (where he meets Rabelais, the one we talked about recently concerning the phonetic cabbala). I am sure I have read something else about him but I don't remember where for now. I will search again.
Paracelsus (1493-1541): This name is a nickname, his real name was Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastius von Hohenheim! He was Swiss. He was a doctor, a self-taught person of genius and an agitator. He thought that the medicine of his time was wrong and travelled in all Europe too for teaching what he believed was the true medicine. For example, he was the kind of person that could say to "bigwigs" of his time: "my shoelaces are more qualified than your famous schools" or "the hairs of my beard know more than your Aristotle or Galen". Exactly the kind of character I think Jo would like, don't you?
Paracelsus is very important in the history of alchemy because he first preferred to search the panacea thanks to the philosopher's stone than to search about metals conversion. To summarize, he thought that the life of a man was inseparable from the universe: the microcosm of the man was an echo of the macrocosm of the universe. I think that this point is very interesting for us because, as we already felt it often, it seems that, in Jo's universe, Harry's life and fate are closely bound to the fate of his universe, the Wizarding World.
BTW, Paracelsus was the one who first associated the Salt element to Sulphur and Mercury. He was also always saying that the alchemist needed to improve himself first he if wanted to make progress. He was also the first one to say that to heal a body, you need to treat the mind first, that words could cure. For him the etymology of "mercury" was also "medius currens": the one who runs in the middle, as the language runs between men. Here again, I think we can see a connection with Jo's universe: a lot of things that happen there depend on what is said, what is hidden , why it is hidden. In a word: the power that words can have.
Does it help us? I don't know but I still think that the fact that Jo mentions these alchemists, who were agitators, innovators, full of humour too, has nothing to do with chance.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 9, 2004 12:46 pm (#668 of 1121)
Joelle, the idea of different beginnings, is an interesting thought I wonder how it relates back to the fact that J.K. Rowling developed several different drafts of the opening chapter of Philosopher's Stone.
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Elanor - Nov 9, 2004 1:16 pm (#669 of 1121)
That is a great idea Nathan!
BTW, I was thinking to the Cornelius/corneille/carrion crow meaning today. If we apply that meaning of Cornelius to Fudge, that becomes very interesting because it connects him to the crow symbol too (the two symbols are very close) and where there is a crow, there is hope in alchemy because it represents the purification needed for the alchemical process.
Now that Fudge has arrived to the end of his "black process", at the end of OotP, he may open his eyes. The path will certainly not be easy but he may even become of some help before the end. After all, Crouch senior was also blind first and finally opened his eyes even if it was too late. Maybe it isn't too late for our Corneille now that he has stopped to fudge... Sorry, I realize I'm trying to be funny but I'm not sure it is funny at all : my dictionary says that one meaning for "fudge" is "to dodge an issue" ! It must be the tiredness, it was really a hard day for me today. **going to the fridge for a well-deserved butterbeer**
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 9, 2004 6:22 pm (#670 of 1121)
Last year on one of the Mugglenet forms I posted this material and I thought it might be useful given the nature of the discussion
I think the number of the courtroom in which Harry's hearing occurred may have some significance Acoording to Giordano Berti and Tiberio Gonard in their volume entitiled Visconti Tarots demonstrates the connection between humankind and the universe in which we live.
Ten represents completion, the manifestation of original unity after he development of the first nine numbers, the totality of the universe and man. The Pythagorean Tetracys , which expresses the source and roots of all nature, is composed of a ten point triangle arranged as a triangle on four levels (1+2+3+4=10); The point represents the One, the being not yet manifested; the two points represent the first apparition, the dualism with each being; the three poinst correspond to the three levels of human life (bodily, intellectual, and spiritual); the base of the four points indicates the multiplicity of the universe, the space-time, directions, the elements, and so on. Ten is also the number of the Sephiroth, in the Tree of the Kabbalah, the mirror of the cosmos and of nature and man. These 'spheres' can be considered as the real containers of Knowledge that becomes accessible to the human mind by degrees (2000, Berti and Gonard 126).
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Elanor - Nov 10, 2004 1:37 pm (#671 of 1121)
That is very interesting Nathan! We can even go farer than that.
If we add up the 10 first numbers, we have : 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10= 55, and 5+5=10, 1+0=1, that is to say the symbol of the One you just mentioned!
In alchemy, 10 is also known as the "hen ta penta", the one-everything we already talked about, in a word: the Ouroboros because it is a number that always "bites its own tail" since we always come back to 1 when we study 10!
The fact that this number is connected to this courtroom is very interesting: Harry has been judged there for something Umbridge caused, it would be logical that, in HBP, she would "bite her own tail" and be judged for what SHE did in the same courtroom!
In a way, the same thing already happened to Fudge: he wanted so much to proove that Harry was wrong about Voldemort, that he, too, had to bite hiw own tail at the end and agreed that Harry said the truth!
What do you think?
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zelmia - Nov 10, 2004 7:36 pm (#672 of 1121)
Wow! Such minute detail. I never would have made that connection. See, this is why I love this thread.
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Archangel - Nov 10, 2004 9:37 pm (#673 of 1121)
Hey Y'all!
It's been a while since I last posted here and I'm so happy that this thread is alive and thriving. There's just so many great ideas from everyone!
I'm not sure if one of you have stumbled on to this but I was going through this alchemy site and found this passage very interesting about a cryptogram.
"James Campbell Brown reprints a curious cipher from Kircher. The capital letters of the seven words in the outer circle, when read clockwise, form the word SVLPHVR. From the five words in the second circle, when read in a similar manner, is derived FIXVM. The capitals of the six words in the inner circle, when properly arranged, also read EST SOL. The following cipher is thus extracted: "Sulphur Fixum Est Sol," which when translated is: "Fixed sulphur is gold." "
IIRC, Sulfur represents the fiery spirit of life. It's often attributed to restlessness -- the constant desire to change, if you will. Sulfur, the element, is actually a flammable solid and has to be treated with care otherwise it'll incinerate everything in its path.
Harry is somewhat like this. He's very hot-headed -- a little thing can get him all riled up. (My friend actually thinks he should seriously consider signing up for an anger management class!) I think if his support system fails (e.g. Friends, mentors, etc) to temper him and if he too fails to control himself, they'll lose this upcoming war. Only once he becomes totally at peace with himself will he begin to realize what he needs to do in order to defeat Voldemort and thus, attain his goal.
Fixed Sulphur is gold -- neat, huh?
Also interesting, this cryptogram came from Kircher. Change the position of "i" and "r" and we get, Kricher. Kreacher, anyone? Kreacher was very, very instrumental with what transpired in OoP and he has unwittingly become the fuse that lit Harry's fire. Voldemort could use Kreacher as a bait to lure Harry if he wishes to harm Kreacher to sort of get one back for Sirius -- clearly an action only someone not totally in control of his emotions would do.
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Elanor - Nov 11, 2004 12:41 pm (#674 of 1121)
Welcome back Archangel! It is so good to see you here again!
Fixed sulphur is gold: great catch! I like the symbolism of it applied to Harry very much. What is also interesting is that sulfur, when it has killed mercury in the athanor, produces cinnabar, the "wished desire" (désir désiré) as Flamel said, the agent of immortality, symbolized by the phoenix.
Harry is bound to Fawkes. We still don't know why and how, but Fawkes acts as a protector with him. If Fawkes represents the transmutation of sulfur, then what we will learn about Fawkes and Godric Gryffindor in HBP will certainly help Harry to make his own transmutation, the one that leads to his own, symbolical, philosopher's stone.
Paracelsus was saying: "No one can transmute any material if he has not transmuted himself first." (The translation is mine, sorry if it isn't very good. The original sentence was: "Nul ne transmute aucune matière, s'il ne s'est transmuté lui-même"). If we assume that Harry's "philosopher's stone" will be able to transmute Voldemort into something harmless to the WW, that is to say when he will be able to vanquish him for good, then he will only be able to do that when he will have transmuted himself, that is to say transformed his anger, his sulfur fire, into a lighter self.
Harry's path is a way towards light. He has reached the deepest part of the nigredo/the black in his life, it is time now for the transmutation to move on, for the fire of his anger to turn into something positive and, at last, into his own symbolical gold.
BTW, Zelmia: that is exactly why I love this thread too! Now that I think about it, is anyone remembering if and when the number ten could have been mentioned in the books apart from the courtroom number?
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Hollywand - Nov 11, 2004 5:18 pm (#675 of 1121)
Hi Archangel, welcome back! You make such wonderful contributions to the discussion, I was very much hoping you would return.
Elanor, I have no idea on the number ten association, but will continue to ponder...
I have too much dang work interfering with my Harry Potter pursuit, alas, earwax.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hi Elanor. What a terrific analysis of the role Sirius plays in the Nigredo. It makes sense to me that an Isis figure would be underground in a crypt, since her origin is with the Egyptian concept of "death as the next great journey" to paraphrase Albus Dumbledore.
Isis reconstructs Osirus. Here I am intrigued by your mention that another name for Isis is Cybele. Could this be a reference to Sibyll Trelawney? She does see Sirius as a Grim initially; will she be able to reconstruct Sirius? Will her death also play an important role in the plot advancement?
I concur with your idea that Sirius' death is a sort of absolute zero nadir for Harry's psyche. Here I am intrigued by our latest clue Felix Felicis as perhaps ironic. At Sirius' death, Dumbledore tries to get Harry to see a transformational element to his grieving, but he will have none of it. He is angry, bleak. I think this is a sort of total calcination for Harry, and he will rise from the ashes of this destructive encounter with the dark lord.
By the way, on Odeus, or NoMan, to use the English translation of the Greek. I am not convinced tha Odeus is not amongst us.
What better place to kick about ideas and rough spots in the text than by making sport of the Lex muggles? :-)
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Solitaire - Nov 2, 2004 9:42 pm (#652 of 1121)
One version of the Arachne myth says Arachne was punished because of her hubris. She boasted that she was as great a weaver as Athena, and she challenged Athena to a contest. She took as her subject matter stories of the gods which were less than flattering to them. This angered the gods.. Her punishment was to be turned into a spider who would weave forever.
There are a couple of other versions of the Arachne myth. One has Athena saving her life at the last minute, turning her into a spider. Another tells how Arachne hanged herself, and Athena took her lifeless body and transformed it to that of a spider, so she and her descendants would weave forever.
The bottom line is that her hubris angered the gods and cost her life. I wonder if hubris will be involved somehow. We have talked about the Macbeth story, and hubris was certainly involved there.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 3, 2004 6:13 am (#653 of 1121)
Yea! Another newsletter in the can!
Elanor, I made a lot of interesting connections with colors in Harry Potter and the spiritual transformation of alchemy yesterday that ended up in the newsletter. Thanks for reminding me to add that bit.
I realized yesterday that black, as a color in HP, is not connected to death, but to those who have not begun the spiritual journey (or those who are refusing to make it, like Voldemort and the Death Eaters). Voldemort wouldn't be wearing the death color -- he's fleeing from death! The Hogwarts students wear black because they have yet to begin their spiritual journeys.
From Phoenix Song's recent research, the color of death (that is spiritual death, connected to rebirth) is white, not black. Those who "die" and are reborn wear white (thus Albus Dumbledore). The Order of the Phoenix seems to be tied in with life, change, and transformation. So we start with the Uninitiated (in black), pass through life (change, the Order), undergo spiritual death (white), then reach adulthood (gold).
Ooooh, I'm so excited! Thank you to all of you who've dug up all this great stuff. I've started a series of articles in my newsletter on alchemy. (As promised, Hollywand, I've given all of you the well-deserved credit for your wonderful research. I'm fortunate to have all this; just writing the newsletter takes enough time -- all this research would be impossible!)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 3, 2004 7:02 am (#654 of 1121)
Solitaire an excellent observation. I wonder if Hubris played a part in halting the progression of not only Sirius and Severus along the path toward enlightenment but, Voldemort as well.
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Elanor - Nov 3, 2004 12:09 pm (#655 of 1121)
Hi everyone! Great thoughts here!
Hollywand: I've searched about Cybele and Sibyll and their stories seem not to be connected as far as I know. Cybele's cult started in Phrygia (she is connected with the Mother-Goddesses cults). She was represented by a black stone. I won't tell you her whole story because it may be a little crude, but let just say that she was a symbol of revival and that her cult needed her male priests to do the "sacrifice" of a certain part of their body. Hence her connection with Isis.
But Sibyll is very different. In fact, there were several Sibylls (at least 10 of them) but they were all prophetesses who were known for making predictions about disasters, monsters, sacrifices... These ones fit rather well with our Sibyll. A funny detail I found: they all had names and the sibyll of Phrygia was named Albunea... BTW, her grand-grand-grand mother, the famous seer, was named Cassandra. Cassandra belongs to the Greek pantheon. She was a seer. Apollon gave her that gift but, as she offended him, he changed it: she could indeed predict the future, but nobody would believe her. I wonder if we will hear about her prophecies in the next books...
BTW, I do agree about the calcination process! That is exactly that, especially the part concerning the fact that Harry will rise from his ashes because, just after Sirius death, Fawkes sacrifices himself for DD in the MoM and starts to rise from his ashes too. It is just as if the story of Harry and Fawkes were melting from that point: symbolically, they will rise from their ashes together in the next books.
Solitaire: great catch about the hubris too! One of the qualities an alchemist had to have to succeed was meant to be humility. The lack of it is certainly one of the reasons Voldemort failed to obtain the Philosopher's Stone as Nathan said.
RPS: Congratulations for finishing the newsletter! White is indeed very important in alchemy, it means that the black process has ended and that the alchemist is indeed on the right path to the philosopher's stone.
BTW, you gave me an idea: I've searched more details about the white process in alchemy and it led me to the LILY symbol, which is also an alchemical one (albedo)! It became the symbol of pure love and a royal symbol too. Its symbolism also says that it outshines other flowers but not lives for a very long time. It is also said that lily was meant to chase away snakes... It would be logical that we would hear more of the white lily in the next books, don't you think so? Oh, I love that!
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zelmia - Nov 3, 2004 7:37 pm (#656 of 1121)
I seem to recall that one of the plates in Levi's book describes the image of a group of snakes slithering through the tall grass next to a river, under a tree... There are lillies growing there under the tree, I think... Then above it all Mercury is floating/flying away from Saturn in the form of and old man/Father Time...
Of course, I could be confusing all the images I've been studying recently for this topic.
Speaking of snakes, once again I pose the question about why Voldemort is so connected with snakes - the embodiment of the perfected process - when he has refused to even begin the journey? He is full of Hubris and Animus... Is there such a thing as the ANTI-Stone?? Because if so, it seems Voldemort is well on his way to attainment - if he hasn't reached it already.
Incidentally, there is a wonderful book by Knut Hamson called The Sybil. I highly recommend this, as well as any of his other novels.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 4, 2004 8:13 am (#657 of 1121)
The anti-stone... :-D
Since the journey is sort of cyclical, I don't think there COULD be an anti-stone. Voldie's sort of sitting there, refusing to move...
In our research, snakes are connected to the revelation of secrets, that which is hidden. (At least, that's the meaning of snakes in the text; you'll have to talk to our knowledgeable alchemy experts for what snakes represent in alchemy.) And Voldemort is very much interested in learning what is hidden; Dumbledore said that he may be the most knowledgeable wizard in the world. But while one must have some knowledge, it doesn't seem to me that knowledge is as much a prerequiste to the spiritual journey as the willingness to sacrifice, to give up what one is holding on to. That's what Harry is having to do, and that's what Voldemort is refusing to do.
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Elanor - Nov 4, 2004 1:00 pm (#658 of 1121)
Hello! Zelmia, I would love to see this image! As for the snake symbol, I think that we have to remember that it is one and several at the same time, in a word ambivalent. The Voldemort that we know seems not to be ambivalent, but I think it is important not to forget that he was Tom Riddle once, the abandoned kid who found in Dark Arts a reason to live. The Tom Riddle we met at 16 in CoS was already evil but was he when he entered Hogwarts? Who did he meet there who taught him the dark arts? He certainly didn't start to learn them in a Muggle orphanage. I put some hope in that forgotten Tom Riddle because DD keeps calling him Tom - a human name - as if he was trying to talk to that part of him. This part is certainly to be connected to the "half forgotten friend" feeling Harry had once in CoS. Tom Riddle's lost humanity may well be Voldemort's end. Hence the snake symbol, the pair of opposite.
RPS: I do agree about the willingness to sacrifice: this is exactly the symbolism of the black process!
BTW, yesterday I was searching for a quote in PS and I realized that Jo had given us so many clues about alchemy connections! In "the journey from platform nine and three-quarters" chapter, when Harry and Ron talk about chocolate cards, they name those wizards: DD and Flamel of course but also Agrippa (that Ron mentions 3 times!), Ptolemy, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberic Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin and Cliodna.
Amongst those wizards, 3 are historic characters and were really great alchemists: Nicolas Flamel, Paracelsus and Cornelius Agrippa! If we add DD to them "famous for [...] his work on alchemy" (p.77 UK papaerbacks edition), that makes 4 alchemists named! But they are not just any alchemists: these ones really counted and made alchemy progress. I will search more about them in the next days, it might be important!
Just a funny detail about Cornelius Agrippa: as most of the alchemists, he travelled a lot and worked in a lot of European countries. When he was in France, he was named Corneille Agrippa and Corneille means "carrion crow"! So, I thought to the other Cornelius, Cornelius Fudge: if we see him as a carrion crow too, then he is connected to the black/nigredo symbol too. We already said that the battle in the MoM in OotP was the end of the Black process: Fudge's name fits very well with that! He was the "black" minister for magic during the 5 first books and his career as minister is ending at the MoM battle too. What do you think?
If we look at the other wizards mentioned: 2 belong to the Arthurian cycle (Merlin and Morgana), one may be a reference to the Niebelungen story (Alberic), one is connected to the Celt mythology (Cliodna) and one is connected to the Greek mythology: Circe. In one and single page, Jo gives us all the references she will use in her books (or at least most of them)!
BTW, I found something amazing about Circe. She was a Greek witch, who was used to turn the men she loved into animals. She used to turn the girls those men loved before into monsters too, including a giant octopus who was once a girl named Scylla... Giant squid anyone??? Even more interesting, she had a crush on Ulysses who managed to avoid her magic thanks to Hermes (well, well!) who gave him a magical plant named MOLY... I told you: truly amazing... Jo is a great witch indeed.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 4, 2004 5:21 pm (#659 of 1121)
Wow Elanor! That post will take more to digest than a stoat sandwich!
50 points for your house!
Amazing references!
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zelmia - Nov 4, 2004 7:38 pm (#660 of 1121)
Paracelsus is credited with the western concept of homeopathy - that is, the treating the body and mind as a whole, rather than just the symptoms of illness. He is attributed as being the first to use both modern chemistry AND modern medicinal concepts, even before either of these had a real standard.
Elanor, I like your explanation of the Tom Riddle/Voldemort/Snake connection. At last I have something I can use!
Unfortunately, some of the emblems I wanted to link to to show what I am talking about are protected so I can't. Here is the page where you can find some of the emblems though: IMAGE GALLERY
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Upulwan - Nov 5, 2004 4:23 am (#661 of 1121)
Oh dear. About quarter of a million years ago Elanor asked me a question about Padma and Parvati...I'm so sorry Elanor, I wasn't ignoring you, just that my computer was behaving like a teenager, totally unresponsive and uncooperative, it's only today that I got it back on!
So sorry, but here goes what I know, if you're still interested.
Parvati means 'mountain', and Parvati is the consort of the god Shiva, who is THE important force in the Hindu universe, next to his twin Vishnu. Shiva and Vishnu are opposing forces, Shiva being a centrifugal force, full of contradictions, and Vishnu being the centripetal force, of harmony. Shiva is referred to as 'Shiva the Destroyer' (I just love that phrase by the way, one of my favourite phrases in the world I don't know why, since I'm neither Hindu nor Indian
), and Vishnu is the 'Preserver'. Shiva breaks things down, flings them around the universe and Vishnu brings them together. It's important to understand here that the dichotomy doesn't stand for good and evil: Shiva's 'flinging' is what distributes life in the universe, and Vishnu steps in to hold the balance. Very similar to Nietzche's Dionysian and Apollinian principles if you're familiar with that. Now the snake is associated with Vishnu as a symbol of wisdom and re-incarnation (Vishnu is the one with nine 'Avatars': avatar in sanskrit means 'ghost' and is associated with reincarnation. Within the lifetime of the universe Vishnu comes to being in 9 forms).
To get to the point, 'Padma' is associated with Vishnu in two ways. First, 'padma' means flower, but more specifically the lotus which is also a symbol of Vishnu. (it's a type of lotus that's in my avatar by the way) Second, Vishnu's consort, Lakshmi, is sometimes known as Padma.
So to summarise, we have the 'twins', Padma and Parvati Patil, who reflect the 'twins' that are Vishnu and Shiva. Rather neat, Jo certainly doesn't do things half way.
So I hope that helps.
Just something slightly unrelated to Hindu mythology but extremely intriguing that I accidentally stumbled upon the other day, the Phoenician alphabet (from which the modern latin alphabet is derived) depicts the letter N with the pictogram 'Nun', which means 'snake': And guess what it looks like - a lightning bolt scar, or 'N' rotated and upended. I nearly felt out my chair when I saw the diagram for this, the word 'snake', next to it.
Coincidence? Uh-uh.
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Elanor - Nov 5, 2004 12:52 pm (#662 of 1121)
Thank you so much Upulwan! These are amazing details indeed! I think just the way you are: Jo does nothing by chance. It is just up to us to figure out why she did that...
I love the detail about the phoenician letter! If we remember that the letter N can also represent the letter H it makes the whole thing just amazing! BTW, I'm happy that you too have funny reactions while finding those kind of clues. Usually, I start to laugh aloud all alone saying "Jo: you're the best!".
About Parvati and Padma who reflect the 'twins' that are Vishnu and Shiva: that is a great detail! You said that they are opposing forces. That could perfectly explain why the twins are not in the same house because their "priorities" are not the same even if they are complementary, as the Hogwarts houses are. BTW, it is very interesting that Padma means lotus. I have checked and found that, symbolically, the lotus has the same meaning that the Lily in Europe! It can even be connected with alchemy in oriental countries: they said that the aim of alchemy was the opening of "golden flower", an extreme lotus.
Zelmia: thank you for the link! The images are impressive: I will have more time to look at them this weekend. I agree about Paracelsus: he was a great mind. I have found interesting things about him. I will try and post them tomorrow.
And thanks for the points TBE! School had started again yesterday, it was hard and I had to take it out on something: doing researches for the thread is the best thing I have found! I guess I work better if I am under pressure. Let's frighten me with a dragon next time and I may find WHO was turned into the Giant Squid... So, do you think I can have the stoat sandwich too? You know... for the dragon...
So thanks again everybody! You're the best!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 5, 2004 2:59 pm (#663 of 1121)
LOL! One stoat sandwich coming up! Trust me, mine are better than than the ones Hagrid offered the Trio.
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Upulwan - Nov 6, 2004 12:19 am (#664 of 1121)
Glad to be of help, Elanor, and hope the dragon was happy with TBE's gourmet stoat sandwich
What you mentioned about the lotus and lily was very interesting, and you're right, the lotus is one of the main floral icons in many Oriental literatures/mythology. (And often it's called a water lily)The lotus is actually very heavily associated with the Buddha due to a specific property of the flower. It grows in the mud, but in blossoming, it rises above the mud: this is likened to the Buddha being born into the world (the 'mud' of birth, death and decay), but rising above it through his Enlightenment (Nirvana).
I don't know where I'm going with this, and we know so little about Lily to make any substantial connections, but may be we'll find in Book 6 that her significance is in her having 'risen above' something?
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 6, 2004 5:20 am (#665 of 1121)
Crazed Writer
Oh my gosh, what I've been missing the past few days; Elanor and Upulwan, your posts left me laughing and breathless. Now if only my daughter were here to share all that with...
Seems to me that the calcination of the "wet way" can be depicted by a white lily, can't it -- a white flower growing out of the black mud?
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Joelle - Nov 6, 2004 10:21 am (#666 of 1121)
Upulwan--while I know that Pravati was Shiva's consort, I'm currently studying Hinduism, and I dont think that you can say Shiva and Visnu are twins. They aren't In fact they are diametrically opposed. Shiva comes from the Vedic god Rudra while Visnu comes from the Vedic god Indra. If anything they seem to be opposites, and it is only in the Sects that believe Shiva is The conundrum of opposites that you can even consider them brothers.
To those who Vaisnava or Shiava each deity reigns supreme. You cannot say that one or the other was supreme. There is a another god involved called Brahma who along with Visnu, and Shiva form a kind of Hinduism Trinity.
I can see this more as representing why Padma and Parvati are not in the same house.
This is not suggesting that the lotus, lily imagery doesnt work, I think that it still does, I just think it has different beginnings but the same ending. If that makes any sense?
-Joelle
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Elanor - Nov 7, 2004 8:44 am (#667 of 1121)
Thanks for all the information about the lotus/lily connections! I love the image of the lily for the "wet way" of alchemy. Very good catch!
I have made some researches about Paracelsus and Cornelius Agrippa and this is what I found:
Heinrich-Cornelius Agrippa - Corneille (carrion crow) Agrippa in French: (1486-1535). He is a very mysterious man, born in Cologne, who travelled in Europe during all his life for his researches and, maybe, for organizing a secret society. We find him in Germany, England, Italy, France (where he meets Rabelais, the one we talked about recently concerning the phonetic cabbala). I am sure I have read something else about him but I don't remember where for now. I will search again.
Paracelsus (1493-1541): This name is a nickname, his real name was Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastius von Hohenheim! He was Swiss. He was a doctor, a self-taught person of genius and an agitator. He thought that the medicine of his time was wrong and travelled in all Europe too for teaching what he believed was the true medicine. For example, he was the kind of person that could say to "bigwigs" of his time: "my shoelaces are more qualified than your famous schools" or "the hairs of my beard know more than your Aristotle or Galen". Exactly the kind of character I think Jo would like, don't you?
Paracelsus is very important in the history of alchemy because he first preferred to search the panacea thanks to the philosopher's stone than to search about metals conversion. To summarize, he thought that the life of a man was inseparable from the universe: the microcosm of the man was an echo of the macrocosm of the universe. I think that this point is very interesting for us because, as we already felt it often, it seems that, in Jo's universe, Harry's life and fate are closely bound to the fate of his universe, the Wizarding World.
BTW, Paracelsus was the one who first associated the Salt element to Sulphur and Mercury. He was also always saying that the alchemist needed to improve himself first he if wanted to make progress. He was also the first one to say that to heal a body, you need to treat the mind first, that words could cure. For him the etymology of "mercury" was also "medius currens": the one who runs in the middle, as the language runs between men. Here again, I think we can see a connection with Jo's universe: a lot of things that happen there depend on what is said, what is hidden , why it is hidden. In a word: the power that words can have.
Does it help us? I don't know but I still think that the fact that Jo mentions these alchemists, who were agitators, innovators, full of humour too, has nothing to do with chance.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 9, 2004 12:46 pm (#668 of 1121)
Joelle, the idea of different beginnings, is an interesting thought I wonder how it relates back to the fact that J.K. Rowling developed several different drafts of the opening chapter of Philosopher's Stone.
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Elanor - Nov 9, 2004 1:16 pm (#669 of 1121)
That is a great idea Nathan!
BTW, I was thinking to the Cornelius/corneille/carrion crow meaning today. If we apply that meaning of Cornelius to Fudge, that becomes very interesting because it connects him to the crow symbol too (the two symbols are very close) and where there is a crow, there is hope in alchemy because it represents the purification needed for the alchemical process.
Now that Fudge has arrived to the end of his "black process", at the end of OotP, he may open his eyes. The path will certainly not be easy but he may even become of some help before the end. After all, Crouch senior was also blind first and finally opened his eyes even if it was too late. Maybe it isn't too late for our Corneille now that he has stopped to fudge... Sorry, I realize I'm trying to be funny but I'm not sure it is funny at all : my dictionary says that one meaning for "fudge" is "to dodge an issue" ! It must be the tiredness, it was really a hard day for me today. **going to the fridge for a well-deserved butterbeer**
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 9, 2004 6:22 pm (#670 of 1121)
Last year on one of the Mugglenet forms I posted this material and I thought it might be useful given the nature of the discussion
I think the number of the courtroom in which Harry's hearing occurred may have some significance Acoording to Giordano Berti and Tiberio Gonard in their volume entitiled Visconti Tarots demonstrates the connection between humankind and the universe in which we live.
Ten represents completion, the manifestation of original unity after he development of the first nine numbers, the totality of the universe and man. The Pythagorean Tetracys , which expresses the source and roots of all nature, is composed of a ten point triangle arranged as a triangle on four levels (1+2+3+4=10); The point represents the One, the being not yet manifested; the two points represent the first apparition, the dualism with each being; the three poinst correspond to the three levels of human life (bodily, intellectual, and spiritual); the base of the four points indicates the multiplicity of the universe, the space-time, directions, the elements, and so on. Ten is also the number of the Sephiroth, in the Tree of the Kabbalah, the mirror of the cosmos and of nature and man. These 'spheres' can be considered as the real containers of Knowledge that becomes accessible to the human mind by degrees (2000, Berti and Gonard 126).
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Elanor - Nov 10, 2004 1:37 pm (#671 of 1121)
That is very interesting Nathan! We can even go farer than that.
If we add up the 10 first numbers, we have : 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10= 55, and 5+5=10, 1+0=1, that is to say the symbol of the One you just mentioned!
In alchemy, 10 is also known as the "hen ta penta", the one-everything we already talked about, in a word: the Ouroboros because it is a number that always "bites its own tail" since we always come back to 1 when we study 10!
The fact that this number is connected to this courtroom is very interesting: Harry has been judged there for something Umbridge caused, it would be logical that, in HBP, she would "bite her own tail" and be judged for what SHE did in the same courtroom!
In a way, the same thing already happened to Fudge: he wanted so much to proove that Harry was wrong about Voldemort, that he, too, had to bite hiw own tail at the end and agreed that Harry said the truth!
What do you think?
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zelmia - Nov 10, 2004 7:36 pm (#672 of 1121)
Wow! Such minute detail. I never would have made that connection. See, this is why I love this thread.
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Archangel - Nov 10, 2004 9:37 pm (#673 of 1121)
Hey Y'all!
It's been a while since I last posted here and I'm so happy that this thread is alive and thriving. There's just so many great ideas from everyone!
I'm not sure if one of you have stumbled on to this but I was going through this alchemy site and found this passage very interesting about a cryptogram.
"James Campbell Brown reprints a curious cipher from Kircher. The capital letters of the seven words in the outer circle, when read clockwise, form the word SVLPHVR. From the five words in the second circle, when read in a similar manner, is derived FIXVM. The capitals of the six words in the inner circle, when properly arranged, also read EST SOL. The following cipher is thus extracted: "Sulphur Fixum Est Sol," which when translated is: "Fixed sulphur is gold." "
IIRC, Sulfur represents the fiery spirit of life. It's often attributed to restlessness -- the constant desire to change, if you will. Sulfur, the element, is actually a flammable solid and has to be treated with care otherwise it'll incinerate everything in its path.
Harry is somewhat like this. He's very hot-headed -- a little thing can get him all riled up. (My friend actually thinks he should seriously consider signing up for an anger management class!) I think if his support system fails (e.g. Friends, mentors, etc) to temper him and if he too fails to control himself, they'll lose this upcoming war. Only once he becomes totally at peace with himself will he begin to realize what he needs to do in order to defeat Voldemort and thus, attain his goal.
Fixed Sulphur is gold -- neat, huh?
Also interesting, this cryptogram came from Kircher. Change the position of "i" and "r" and we get, Kricher. Kreacher, anyone? Kreacher was very, very instrumental with what transpired in OoP and he has unwittingly become the fuse that lit Harry's fire. Voldemort could use Kreacher as a bait to lure Harry if he wishes to harm Kreacher to sort of get one back for Sirius -- clearly an action only someone not totally in control of his emotions would do.
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Elanor - Nov 11, 2004 12:41 pm (#674 of 1121)
Welcome back Archangel! It is so good to see you here again!
Fixed sulphur is gold: great catch! I like the symbolism of it applied to Harry very much. What is also interesting is that sulfur, when it has killed mercury in the athanor, produces cinnabar, the "wished desire" (désir désiré) as Flamel said, the agent of immortality, symbolized by the phoenix.
Harry is bound to Fawkes. We still don't know why and how, but Fawkes acts as a protector with him. If Fawkes represents the transmutation of sulfur, then what we will learn about Fawkes and Godric Gryffindor in HBP will certainly help Harry to make his own transmutation, the one that leads to his own, symbolical, philosopher's stone.
Paracelsus was saying: "No one can transmute any material if he has not transmuted himself first." (The translation is mine, sorry if it isn't very good. The original sentence was: "Nul ne transmute aucune matière, s'il ne s'est transmuté lui-même"). If we assume that Harry's "philosopher's stone" will be able to transmute Voldemort into something harmless to the WW, that is to say when he will be able to vanquish him for good, then he will only be able to do that when he will have transmuted himself, that is to say transformed his anger, his sulfur fire, into a lighter self.
Harry's path is a way towards light. He has reached the deepest part of the nigredo/the black in his life, it is time now for the transmutation to move on, for the fire of his anger to turn into something positive and, at last, into his own symbolical gold.
BTW, Zelmia: that is exactly why I love this thread too! Now that I think about it, is anyone remembering if and when the number ten could have been mentioned in the books apart from the courtroom number?
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Hollywand - Nov 11, 2004 5:18 pm (#675 of 1121)
Hi Archangel, welcome back! You make such wonderful contributions to the discussion, I was very much hoping you would return.
Elanor, I have no idea on the number ten association, but will continue to ponder...
I have too much dang work interfering with my Harry Potter pursuit, alas, earwax.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 676 to 700)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:00 am
zelmia - Nov 11, 2004 9:41 pm (#676 of 1121)
I seem to recall the number 12 mentioned a great deal, but the number 10 doesn't spring to mind as readily.
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Elanor - Nov 12, 2004 1:18 pm (#677 of 1121)
Thanks a lot for searching Zelmia and Hollywand (it is so good to see you here again!). I wish I had the time to reread all the books now that we have worked a lot on the alchemy symbolism! There are certainly a lot of clues we haven't found yet that are just waiting for us: if I find the number ten from now on, I will think at once to the Ouroboros whereas before I wouldn't have even noticed it...
I was searching about heraldry today and I found something interesting connecting heraldry and alchemy. For example, the way the crest is divided into several parts (as the Hogwarts's crest wich has 4 parts) represent processes or elements. So, the Hogwarts' crest, which is called a quartered crest symbolizes the 4 elements, which is another proof that, when we say that the 4 houses represent those 4 elements, we are right! If the crest is divided in 3 parts, it represents sufur, mercury and salt... The animals, and colours, represented on the crests were also symbolical.
There is another crest that I remember: the Black crest, with the "Toujours pure" motto. It is mentioned in OotP but I don't remember if it is actually described. I will try and search about it in the books tomorrow, it would be rather interesting... I don't remember other crests mentioned, though it is likely that the Malfoys for example have armorial bearings. Is anyone remembering that too? (after that, I promise, I stop asking questions, at least tomorrow )
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Elanor - Nov 13, 2004 10:11 am (#678 of 1121)
Hi everybody! I was searching some details for the "cats" thread today when I realized that I had found something huge connecting cats, alchemy and Jo's site clues (the spinning top toy)!
We already talked about the phonetic cabbala and the puns authors used for hiding their ideas, which is exactly the case here. Do you know Charles Perrault's tales? I've discovered that all those tales are hiding alchemical symbolism. The original title of the "Mother Goose's tales" (I think they are called like that in English) is "Contes de ma Mère l'Oie" which is the first pun: Mère l'Oie means loi mère = mother law, that is to say the fundamental law (the connection between macrocosm and microcosm).
One of those tales is "Le chat botté". I don't know its title in English but that means "The cat with boots on" and there it becomes very interesting. The pun here is subtle: "chabot" stands for "sabot" (clog). Or sabot/clog is another name for the "toupie"/ the spinning top, which is an alchemical symbol! It represents mercury spinning into a balloon like jar, at the end of the work while mercury and sulfur become a conjunction.
This is maybe a proof that the little objects that we can see on Jo's site are very carefuly chosen and may reveal some interesting clues! Hollywand, this is exactly what you had sensed for ages: how right were you!
We already know that the cat symbol is important in HP, Jo said it herself as Ann quoted her on the "cats" thread: "Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.)"
"Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry." (the Scholastic chat, October 16, 2000).
Well, there is even more about the cat in alchemy: it is a solar symbol because its whiskers looks like sunbeams. In the "chat botté" again, the cat is the servant of the marquis of Carabas, which is another pun with "bas carat" (bas=low, carat=carat), that is to say that the cat is the servant of gold, in a word, the symbol that leads to the philosophical gold!
So, the cats mentioned in the books may be seen as "signs" guiding Harry on the right path! Till now, the "McGonnagal cat" led him to quidditch, Mrs Norris led him first to the basilisk, Crookshanks led him to Sirius and to discover the truth...
I promised I wouldn't ask questions today, but I would love to know what you think about it! (written like that, it isn't a question, just a wish, he, he, he...
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zelmia - Nov 13, 2004 11:41 am (#679 of 1121)
At the moment, all I can think to say is that in English that story is called "Puss in Boots". And if memory serves, isn't the synopsis of that story something like the cat was the one running the kingdom from behind the scenes? (Or is it a satirization I'm thinking of?) If so, do you think it could mean anything to us?
At any rate, I will definitely be looking more closely at the Cat references. Still, have we been able to get that spinning top thing on the JKR web site to do anything other than just spin and make a spinny sound? Or is this in itself a clue?
I guess I've got your back on the question-asking, Elanor Hopefully I'll be able to contribute answers as well in the near future.
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Hollywand - Nov 13, 2004 2:14 pm (#680 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, that's a great string of associations with the cat.
Crookshanks connects us with Wormtail before any of the other characters in the story, and would be a predator to snakes and rats.
Regarding the website, the marble on her desk would be referred to as a "cat's eye" marble. Hmmm.
I am also thinking about the detail that the cat hair held Hermione back from going on a journey with Harry and Ron in the Polyjuice potion incedent. Was her transformation into a cat a signifier of the future?
Nice association with the spinning top and the round flask---I believe, not sure, called a Bunsen flask after the scientist that developed it. Zelmia, if you look on the alchemy website we have been looking at a lot on this thread, you will see a wonderful little graphic of the process in the flask---the dragon, lion, snake all swimming around and struggling until the sun emerges from the malestrom. Chemsoc.org is the address.
Elanor, you use the term "noble work" quite a bit referring to the alchemical process. I think it's interesting that Tom Riddle uses exactly that wording to refer to Slytherin's "noble work"----surely JKR referring to alchemical terminology here (this is the closing conversation between Riddle and Potter in Chamber of secrets. I imagine you've already seen this reference.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 13, 2004 2:21 pm (#681 of 1121)
First, the number 10...Tens and multiples of 10 (20, 100, 200) are extremely common throughout HP. Examples: 100 goblins at the desk at Gringotts, about 100 golden taps around the Prefects' bathtub, 20 merpeople accompanying Harry as a guard of honor, 10 skrewts left after the First Task, 10 Death Eaters captured in the Ministry of Magic, 200 Slytherins at the Quidditch Final in PoA, and so on. I find the Ouroboros connection very interesting, and I'll have to think about that...
Elanor, I am very intrigued by your saying that there is alchemical symbolism in Charles Perrault's fairy tales! As you may recall, I said to you in an e-mail that there are many references to children's literature in HP. I have already found references to Cinderella, Hansel and Gretel, the Frog Prince, the Three Little Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf, a number of Mother Goose nursery rhymes, and possibly Sleeping Beauty (or Rumplestiltskin, or both). Hmm...Puss in Boots...I'll have to think about that, too! Could you e-mail me about the alchemy in Perrault's work? I could use this information for my newsletter.
EDIT: Hollywand, you beat me to the post, and I'm sorry you did, because your comments were AWESOME! I can't believe I never connected the flask in the hidden drawing to alchemy! And your cat comments were great, too. AND the "noble work" one was also really good.
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Hollywand - Nov 13, 2004 5:08 pm (#682 of 1121)
Thank you Round Pink Spider! It's great to have your contributions here.
This thread is such a rich discussion, it has me spoiled, such great contributions here. I hope we are hot on the trail of Hermes. And if not, having a grand time chasing her, um, him, um, them. ;-)
To further your associations on the number ten---Gob Lynn is one of the cards whose numbers gets us to a prize on the site--100 Goblins and Gringotts as clue?
200 Golden taps of the prefects: In alchemy, one of the processes is represented by the hermaprhoditic figure in an octagonal fountain. Perhaps the golden spigots are a reference to the taproot of the tree of life, often depicted in alchemy. Elanor also notes a key clue, I think: the mermaid at this site gives Harry a key clue to his development at the Triwizard Tournament. Prefects represent a key embodiment of the virtues of the houses, and again we have a transformational association with the architecture of the bathroom----as we did with the pipes in the Chamber of Secrets. I suspect the architecture of the Room of Requirement on the web site is a sly reference to this architectural association.
I'm wondering if the fact that the "Do Not Disturb" sign not reappearing, and the fact that we fanatics have achieved our seven clues means...............we're in for a treat!
Elanor, if you look on Jo's site under the FAQ, she answers the question of "who is your favorite character?" with ten---isn't that interesting? She lists, in order: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Ginny, Dumbledore, Fred and George, Lupin, and Luna Lovegood. She attaches Severus as an afterthought. I don't see a pattern there, but with your alchemist's sharp vision, perhaps you will!
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 14, 2004 5:34 am (#683 of 1121)
Hollywand, you might be interested to know that there are some symbolic indications that Harry will have one of his (unfortunate) run-ins with water in that bathroom in HBP. I believe the tub was described as a rectangle, though (*a tomb??*). We also think that the 100 golden taps with jewels in their handles around the marble tub may be connected to the 100 goblins in marble Gringotts sorting jewels.
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Elanor - Nov 14, 2004 7:54 am (#684 of 1121)
Wow, great thoughts everybody! It is always amazing what we can find when we work as a group!
Zelmia: I think that the spinning top is by itself a clue since, as Hollywand said, it spins and his colours (red and yellow, as if by chance) are mixing, just like in the image of the alchemical symbols in the round flask. BTW, you're right, the cat of "Puss in Boots" (thanks for the title BTW!) is a kind of manipulative one, but for the good of his master, not his. To summarize, the Cat manages to make a king believe that his master is the rich and generous Marquis of Carabas while he is in fact a poor miller who has nothing in life except for that cat. The cat uses ruse for defeating an ogre making him first turn into a lion and then a rat that he eats at once. After that, he pretends that the ogre's castle belongs to his master and the king, delighted, gave the "Marquis" de Carabas his daughter. It is full of alchemical hidden meanings and I don't know how the story can by itself be connected with us, except that I hope that one of our cats will be able to eat our fake rat (I don't know why, but I think that Crookshanks deserves it, don't you?).
Hollywand: what a great connection with the marble as the cat's eye! About Hermione's transformation into a cat, I think you're onto something very interesting here. Just a supposition: if we assume that the cat is the symbol that leads to the philosopher's gold, that is to say that the cat shows the right path to the alchemist, then it is logical that Hermione, as a cat, was held back since they were suspecting Draco and that it was a wrong lead.
I loved the reference to Slytherin's "noble work", I had completely forgotten that sentence!
RPS: I knew you would like that! I will send you what I have found but it is not much for now since the information is very scattered in all my books. What I can tell you for now is that each tale has an alchemical hidden meaning:
Cinderella (Cendrillon) is etymologically "the woman that always stands by the hearth",
Tom Thumb has "the seven-league boots": here, in French, there is a pun: "7 league" is said "7 lieues" (same meaning) but phonetically, you can hear it "7 lieux" (7 places), that is to say the 7 planets of the alchemical work! There is also an ogre who, as the fire, devours everything.
"Peau d'âne": I'm sorry, I don't know how she is called in English, in French her name means "skin of a donkey", the story of a young woman hiding her beauty under a donkey's skin as the black materia prima hides what will become the philosopher's gold.
That is all I have found for now, but I will post it if I can find more.
Great connections about the number 10! The 10 DE captured in MoM: that is very interesting because they were captured in the death chamber: can we see an image of their end here?
Hollywand, I love the architectural associations: there is certainly something here too! BTW, the fact that she lists 11 characters finally is interesting because the number 11 has, most of the time, an ill-fated connotation: one of those 11 might well die before the end. As she lists Snape and Luna separately of the first characters, it may even be one of these two. But I may be wrong (I don't think my vision is that sharp today LOL! ) and she may have listed them apart from the others because Luna is a new character and she makes a nuance for Snape. **searching for "Unfogging the future"**
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 8:56 am (#685 of 1121)
Another stab in the dark, Elanor---Isn't it interesting that Crookshanks is half Kneazle, which rhymes with weasel? Why did Jo choose a fantasy word to rhyme with a key animal in the story?
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Elanor - Nov 14, 2004 11:43 am (#686 of 1121)
That's curious indeed... Could etymology help us on that one? All that comes to my mind is that it could be a mix of "knight" and "weasel" but my English is not good enough to make other suppositions: what do you think it could come from?
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 12:29 pm (#687 of 1121)
Uh oh, don't get me started! :-) Now I'm thinking
Knight/night weasel/wheeze Kneel/Kneazle
Spinners End/Spin or send Draco's Detour/Fleur Delacour
Hand of Glory/Rest of the Story
ok, I'll stop ;-)
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 8:52 pm (#688 of 1121)
Ok Elanor! What do you make of this??
I'm looking for cobra pictures on the net and I find this:
The green cateyed snake
This lovely celadon green snake could be the model for Slytherin. The photo I saw, it was just the color I imagine for the Slytherin house. Unfortunately, the site did not have a close up of the eye, but I assume it is cat-like and has a nocturnal pupil.
Why was I looking at cobra pictures, you may ask? Or asp? :0 I was reading a wonderful book on Ancient Egyptian animals called "An Egyptian Bestiary". At the close of the book, the author features animals from the magical realm. Here is the ureas cobra, the Greek word taken from the Egyptian urejat, "she who rises up". These amazing snakes grow to 5 feet, and can raise themselves up two or three feet to have a look. They "hood", that is, spread their skin to appear larger, and spit venom up to six feet, directed at the eye of the intruder, containing a neurotoxin that will blind if not treated. Oh, at least in this book, the Egyptian word mentoned here for snake is basliliska. Hmmm.
Ok, so what's my point, you may ask? ;-0 The magical section described as "words and image as protection against the chaos of the world" according to this book. The snake here is depicted with two heads, with a raven sitting in the middle. The snake here is also depicted with three heads, as is the unforgettable Occamy, I believe.
I do make mistakes, I admit that, but find some interesting stuff, wouldn't you say? Fun, fun, fun. Looking at the pictures of the cobras was enough to send me into cardiac arrest. Yikes.
Oh, forgot one interesting detail. The cobra's primary diet is.....other snakes. Yikes. It's a small world afterall.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 14, 2004 10:40 pm (#689 of 1121)
Hollywand, the Cobra is one of several snakes whose diet consists of other snakes the Northern Scarlet, Monterey Ringneck and King Snake are other examples such snakes. I wonder if the snakes in some way tie back into Slytherin House.
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Archangel - Nov 15, 2004 6:50 am (#690 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
The King of Snakes, the King Cobra, is known to be the largest poisonous snake in the world. Like what Nathan said, it eats other snakes thus its scientific name -- Ophiophagus hannah (Ophis = "snake"; phagein = "to eat"; hannah = "giant").
What I found very interesting about this type of snake is that it is not aggressive despite its ferocity and killing prowess. It prefers to flee if it is possible. The only time that it attacks is when it is cornered or its young is threatened. In other words, in self-defense.
We haven't seen this character in any Slytherin thus far. The current crop of Slytherins are all talk and no wand (Draco, et al) , while the older generation (DEs, LV) seem to attack just for the heck of it. They're very confrontational. I'm inclined to think that maybe, we haven't seen the real "King of Snakes". Is Salazar Slytherin really as bad as we think he is or is it because of Voldemort's actions that we have come to think that he is that bad?
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Elanor - Nov 15, 2004 12:47 pm (#691 of 1121)
Wow, great researches Hollywand! Cateyed snake, very interesting: I don't know why but it makes me think to a famous evil one: Sauron's, which is described as glazing like a cat's.
I like the image of the 3 headed snake, could these heads represent the 3 unforgivable curses, like the 3 heads of an evil snake ready to strike? But it is also like the 3 elements of the alchemical process (especially with the image of the raven) and there it becomes more ambiguous.
Interesting thoughts too Archangel! Slytherin may not have been that bad at the beginning, when he found Hogwarts with the 3 others, but the building of the Chamber of secrets and his little basilisk pet makes me wonder what happened to him to lead him there...
Which makes me think that I have found something very interesting about the basilisk: I will try and post it tomorrow (I'm really sorry, but I have a bad cold and I am too tired and "under the weather" to do it today, but I will do it soon, I promise!).
BTW, Hollywand: do you think the weasle knight will kneel for a wheezing kneazle at night? LOL!I love those plays on words...
May I ask you something BTW? What do you mean by "the unforgettable Occamy"? Please forgive a foggy mind tonight but I have some trouble understanding it because it makes me think to Guillaume d'Occam's story, is it about him?
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Hollywand - Nov 15, 2004 1:06 pm (#692 of 1121)
I hope you feel better soon Elanor! We will brew up a nice "cold chasing" potion for you....let's make it of hot chocolate and some fire whisky......whipped cream with that? I wish I could give my down boots to you to keep your feet warm....
Regarding the Occamy---there are a bunch of snakes described in the Fantastic Beasts section on the Lex---I am assuming Newt Scamander is our source here. He/she describes a three headed snake, one head acts, one head fears, one head criticizes. Sounds like our gallant trio! And probably Jo's internal conflicts trying to be creative with the whole world hanging, postulating and gesticulating over every hyphen. The Occamy generally moves forward when two of the snake heads gang up on the other one, and bite its head off! Sounds like our trio?
The other is a fire adder, whose eggs catch fire if left unattended, it's a sort of Sidewinder---I bet these snakes appear in the forthcoming books!
Have a nice rest, Elanor, and get well. We need you for our Quidditch team!
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zelmia - Nov 15, 2004 9:02 pm (#693 of 1121)
I believe Hollywand is referring to the Runespoor, the 3-headed snake which does appear in FB but also in real mythology of ... I think it's India(?)
The Ashwinder is the "snake" from FB that leaves its flammable eggs around the house. But there is a Fire Crab.
What about the "in essence divided" device? Could that come into play here? It's just that I thougt of that thing when reading that description of the 2-headed snake with the raven in the middle.
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Elanor - Nov 16, 2004 12:44 pm (#694 of 1121)
Thank you so much Hollywand! That was so sweet of you! Well, the cold seems to become a kind of flu, but my poor brain seems a little less foggy than it was yesterday (maybe fire whisky helped, though I never dare to mix it with hot chocolate, I will have to try it...) BTW, I was thinking about alcohol, the water that burns, and therefore the perfect couple of opposites for alchemists, and Jo, as if by chance, calls the wizards' whisky "firewhisky... There is a long time now that I don't believe to things happening "by chance" in her universe...
Thanks for the explanations! And thank you too Zelmia! How could I forget the Occamy and the other fantastic snakes mentioned in FB?
Anyway, one snake, three heads: that is the perfect image of alchemy, don't you think so? Mercur, sulfur and salt: they are 3 but they are one too, this is the triad symbol again! So, it could be the perfect image of all the triads we already encountered in the story, beginning with HRH of course. Well, symbolically, Harry and Ron often manage not to hear Hermione's criticisms and act as planned, though, most of the time, they should have listened to her. When they do that, they "cut her head", in a way.
The "essence divided" device could maybe be connected to it too because it comes from the same image: one but several at the same time, the Hen ta penta, the ouroboros.
BTW, while skimming throug FB, I saw something that never occured to me before: there is an entry about the Ramora! And the ramora is also an alchemical symbol... It symbolizes the end of the second work, sometimes compared to Noah's journey during the Flood, because the Ramora stops his boat and allow the water to calm down, as do the work before the "phoenix" comes.
We've not seen the ramora yet, nor the other snakes: I wish we will soon! Anyway, the simple fact that Jo mentions them in FB is very significant, don't you think so?
EDIT: I've got it now! I know why the 3 headed snake was reminding me of sulfur, mercury and salt! I have an illustration, in one of my books, showing those 3 elements as a dragon with three heads!
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 5:29 pm (#695 of 1121)
Thanks, Zelmia, I had no idea the Runespoor was based on a mythological snake. I figured Jo was referring to Runes.
The double headed snake with the raven sitting between them would be a key alchemical process, the black crow. We have been speculating some that Severus may be the individual that will act as the black crow nigredo figure, the Sever the Snake figure.
I have heard that some of the mythological origins are based upon genetic mix ups---in fact, one culture may have witnessed a double headed snake and incorporated it into mythology. Some have speculated that dragon mythology arises from discovery of dinosaur bones, and the human attempt to explain these amazing creatures.
I'm sure it's dead by now, but the San Francisco Bay Aquarium in Golden Gate park used to have a tank with a pair of fish conjoined at the belly. One fish would swim on top for a bit, the other would swim on top for a bit. I was amazed by them, and they were great fun to watch.
Elanor, your mention of the three headed snake as an alchemical triad also lead me to think of Fluffy, who also had three heads and was soothed by music. Could be an alchemical association there. I will think about other triads in the series.
Again, I hope you are feeling better.
I want to thank everyone who contributes to this thread and is so open minded to discussion and association. It's just wonderful! I am also amazed at the number of people who seem to have memorized the entire text, but still don't see a fraction of the associations. What a paradox!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 8, 2006 11:00 am (#696 of 1121)
When I hear mention made of Occamy I am reminded of William of Occam and his famous Razor. I wonder what role Occam's Razor will play,
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 7:17 pm (#697 of 1121)
The snakes with multiple heads but with one body sort of reminds me of conjoined ("siamese") twins. Although there is an operation to separate them, I believe that it is very dangerous and the odds that both twins will live after the operation is quite small. I think the odds increase if the twins do not share a vital organ, though.
This sort of made me think about Harry and Voldemort and Harry's scar. The scar is the physical manifestation of their connection and removing it might be very dangerous to both of them. In PS/SS McGonagall asked DD to remove the scar and DD said that it might someday be helpful. I think DD knows more about the scar than he let McG on.
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A couple of posts back, Elanor made a connection between fairy tales and alchemy, most notably Puss in Boots. It got me thinking about the name Puss gave the poor guy -- CARABAS. If you actually rearrange the letters, you get "A SCARAB".
"The scarab is a type of beetle noted for rolling dung into spherical balls and pushing it, as well as its habit of laying its eggs in animal dung. Because most of the scarab species work with dung they are commonly referred to as dung beetles." Mundungus anyone?
A scarab is also prominent in ancient Egyptian traditions. They associate it with life and rebirth. When Egyptians undergo the mummification process, a stone scarab is placed over their hearts and this acts as a replacement heart in the afterlife.
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As you know, the ancient Egyptians believed that death is not the end of life but the start of a new journey (sounds like DD's view huh?) albeit a dangerous one. The goal of that journey is to reach the land of gods and to do so, they must first traverse the land of the dead. The Book of Dead contains the necessary texts, spells, etc. that they would need to pass the tests in their journey.
However, such spells and enchantments are rendered useless in one particular test -- the weighing of the heart! They believed that a person's heart notes all the person's bad and good deeds throughout his life. This test happens in the "Hall of Judgement" where the dead is led by Anubis. The deceased's heart is then weighed against Maat's feather of truth. Afterwards, Horus (the falcon god) leads them to Osiris for verdict. If the verdict is unfavorable, the demon Ammit (the Eater of Hearts) devours the deceased. Ammit is a female demon composed of crocodile, lion, and hippopotamus.
I think that the "Heart" in this test is synonymous to a wizard's wand. The wand chooses the wizard and it means that the wand sees something in the wizard that it can really connect to. If we look at it this way, the wizard and his wand are really bound together for life. Broken wand = "broken heart" =? death. How many wizards do we know that have broken wands that are still alive and are fully functioning in society? Hagrid might be next to bite the dust since he has a broken wand.
The wand also keeps note of all the spells/magic it had performed -- good and bad -- and it can be revealed via the Priori Incantatem spell. In GoF, we even had a chapter called The Weighing of the Wands and to Harry, he felt like he was being judged. He even tried to clean his wand by rubbing it in his cloak, right?
Anubis = Guardian of the Dead. Oh by the way, he has a head of a jackal or a dog! Grim = Omen of Death = Sirius Black
Ammit = Eater of Hearts, Devourer of the Dead. Death eater?
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I apologize for the long post. It's hard to stop once you get on a roll. Hope you find these as interesting as I did.
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 7:39 pm (#698 of 1121)
Nathan, I would love to learn more about Occam and his famous razor and how it might be associated with the Occamy of Infamy. ok, I made that last part up.
Archangel, very enjoyable post about the scar/wand/Sirius associations. It sparked me to think of Sirius presiding over the trial of Voldemort in the underworld. Nice.
The comment about Dung---he is an agent of commerce between the wizarding world. I have also thought of Rita, as she is the beetle that deals back and forth in the trade of trashy gossip.
I would also like to bounce some ideas related to your remarks about the scar and the wand. I believe the scar may be a gift from Fawkes and not Voldemort, and this could be why Dumbledore knows the scar will be useful to Harry.
Fawkes may have gifted Dumbledore with his scar.
Since the core of Voldemort's wand belongs to Fawkes, and Fawkes has appeared at several junctures in different guises to defend Harry and Dumbledore, Fawkes could also have appeared to defend Harry the baby from Voldemort's AK curse.
This would explain why Voldemort survived but was vaporized (as he belongs to Fawkes) and Harry receives the stigmata, the scar that burns like fire every time he connects with the dark lord.
Fawkes is a sort of fatemaker, and binds the two wizards to their conjoined destiny. Fawkes is the cage of light, reversing the Kundalini of Voldemort. Fawkes blinds the basilisk. Fawkes swallows the green snake AK defending Dumbledore, and bursts into flames. Why not that night at Godric's Hollow?
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zelmia - Nov 16, 2004 8:21 pm (#699 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand. I don't think it would ever have occured to me that Fawkes might have given Harry the scar. I remember you had mentioned (maybe on another Thread) that Fawkes had protected Harry at Godric's Hollow the same we he protected DD and the Battle of the Ministry. But even with that line of thinking, I never would have made that connection. Well done!
This is a bit of a change of subject, but I came across this on the Alchemy Web Site (Maier's Musical Emblems)
When the unborn child,
which lies hidden in the womb of the North wind,
One day will rise to the light alive
He alone will be able to surpass all deeds of heroism
With his art, his hand, bodily strength and spirit,
Let him not be born for you like a Coeso, and not as a useless abortion,
Not as an Agrippa, but under a lucky star.
Sounds just a bit like the Prophecy to me...
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 8:47 pm (#700 of 1121)
Hollywand, Sirius presiding over Voldemort's trial now that would be something. He probably takes one good look at LV and says to Horus, "Seriously, do we REALLY even need to do this?"
About the Fawkes-scars connection, good catch and interesting idea. Hagrid did comment in PS/SS that after the Potter's attack that the house was destroyed. (No book with me so can't give the exact quote) I've always found this weird since from what we've seen of the AK curse, there's hardly any destruction made to the surrounding environment. The person who is AK-ed just falls to the ground dead.
However, when Fawkes swallowed the AK curse in MoM, he burst into flames! If the battle took place in an enclosed space, he would have incinerated and destroyed everything. Imagine a bomb going off inside a wooden barrel! BOOM!
Perhaps when Voldemort AK-ed Harry, Fawkes magically appeared as you suggested, swallowed the AK and burst into flame and since it happened in an enclosed space, the house got destroyed. I imagine the roof being blasted to bits and the glasses shattered. Hagrid found Harry alright but with a scar -- the sign of Fawkes' protection and the mark of Voldemort's attack.
(Another twist of this is what if DD sends Fawkes regularly to check on the Potters' and Longbottoms' sons -- just waiting for Voldemort's attack. Then the attack happened and Fawkes just did what he was sent out to do -- protect the boy that was attacked so he may live to fulfill the prophecy.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I seem to recall the number 12 mentioned a great deal, but the number 10 doesn't spring to mind as readily.
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Elanor - Nov 12, 2004 1:18 pm (#677 of 1121)
Thanks a lot for searching Zelmia and Hollywand (it is so good to see you here again!). I wish I had the time to reread all the books now that we have worked a lot on the alchemy symbolism! There are certainly a lot of clues we haven't found yet that are just waiting for us: if I find the number ten from now on, I will think at once to the Ouroboros whereas before I wouldn't have even noticed it...
I was searching about heraldry today and I found something interesting connecting heraldry and alchemy. For example, the way the crest is divided into several parts (as the Hogwarts's crest wich has 4 parts) represent processes or elements. So, the Hogwarts' crest, which is called a quartered crest symbolizes the 4 elements, which is another proof that, when we say that the 4 houses represent those 4 elements, we are right! If the crest is divided in 3 parts, it represents sufur, mercury and salt... The animals, and colours, represented on the crests were also symbolical.
There is another crest that I remember: the Black crest, with the "Toujours pure" motto. It is mentioned in OotP but I don't remember if it is actually described. I will try and search about it in the books tomorrow, it would be rather interesting... I don't remember other crests mentioned, though it is likely that the Malfoys for example have armorial bearings. Is anyone remembering that too? (after that, I promise, I stop asking questions, at least tomorrow )
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Elanor - Nov 13, 2004 10:11 am (#678 of 1121)
Hi everybody! I was searching some details for the "cats" thread today when I realized that I had found something huge connecting cats, alchemy and Jo's site clues (the spinning top toy)!
We already talked about the phonetic cabbala and the puns authors used for hiding their ideas, which is exactly the case here. Do you know Charles Perrault's tales? I've discovered that all those tales are hiding alchemical symbolism. The original title of the "Mother Goose's tales" (I think they are called like that in English) is "Contes de ma Mère l'Oie" which is the first pun: Mère l'Oie means loi mère = mother law, that is to say the fundamental law (the connection between macrocosm and microcosm).
One of those tales is "Le chat botté". I don't know its title in English but that means "The cat with boots on" and there it becomes very interesting. The pun here is subtle: "chabot" stands for "sabot" (clog). Or sabot/clog is another name for the "toupie"/ the spinning top, which is an alchemical symbol! It represents mercury spinning into a balloon like jar, at the end of the work while mercury and sulfur become a conjunction.
This is maybe a proof that the little objects that we can see on Jo's site are very carefuly chosen and may reveal some interesting clues! Hollywand, this is exactly what you had sensed for ages: how right were you!
We already know that the cat symbol is important in HP, Jo said it herself as Ann quoted her on the "cats" thread: "Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.)"
"Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry." (the Scholastic chat, October 16, 2000).
Well, there is even more about the cat in alchemy: it is a solar symbol because its whiskers looks like sunbeams. In the "chat botté" again, the cat is the servant of the marquis of Carabas, which is another pun with "bas carat" (bas=low, carat=carat), that is to say that the cat is the servant of gold, in a word, the symbol that leads to the philosophical gold!
So, the cats mentioned in the books may be seen as "signs" guiding Harry on the right path! Till now, the "McGonnagal cat" led him to quidditch, Mrs Norris led him first to the basilisk, Crookshanks led him to Sirius and to discover the truth...
I promised I wouldn't ask questions today, but I would love to know what you think about it! (written like that, it isn't a question, just a wish, he, he, he...
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zelmia - Nov 13, 2004 11:41 am (#679 of 1121)
At the moment, all I can think to say is that in English that story is called "Puss in Boots". And if memory serves, isn't the synopsis of that story something like the cat was the one running the kingdom from behind the scenes? (Or is it a satirization I'm thinking of?) If so, do you think it could mean anything to us?
At any rate, I will definitely be looking more closely at the Cat references. Still, have we been able to get that spinning top thing on the JKR web site to do anything other than just spin and make a spinny sound? Or is this in itself a clue?
I guess I've got your back on the question-asking, Elanor Hopefully I'll be able to contribute answers as well in the near future.
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Hollywand - Nov 13, 2004 2:14 pm (#680 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, that's a great string of associations with the cat.
Crookshanks connects us with Wormtail before any of the other characters in the story, and would be a predator to snakes and rats.
Regarding the website, the marble on her desk would be referred to as a "cat's eye" marble. Hmmm.
I am also thinking about the detail that the cat hair held Hermione back from going on a journey with Harry and Ron in the Polyjuice potion incedent. Was her transformation into a cat a signifier of the future?
Nice association with the spinning top and the round flask---I believe, not sure, called a Bunsen flask after the scientist that developed it. Zelmia, if you look on the alchemy website we have been looking at a lot on this thread, you will see a wonderful little graphic of the process in the flask---the dragon, lion, snake all swimming around and struggling until the sun emerges from the malestrom. Chemsoc.org is the address.
Elanor, you use the term "noble work" quite a bit referring to the alchemical process. I think it's interesting that Tom Riddle uses exactly that wording to refer to Slytherin's "noble work"----surely JKR referring to alchemical terminology here (this is the closing conversation between Riddle and Potter in Chamber of secrets. I imagine you've already seen this reference.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 13, 2004 2:21 pm (#681 of 1121)
First, the number 10...Tens and multiples of 10 (20, 100, 200) are extremely common throughout HP. Examples: 100 goblins at the desk at Gringotts, about 100 golden taps around the Prefects' bathtub, 20 merpeople accompanying Harry as a guard of honor, 10 skrewts left after the First Task, 10 Death Eaters captured in the Ministry of Magic, 200 Slytherins at the Quidditch Final in PoA, and so on. I find the Ouroboros connection very interesting, and I'll have to think about that...
Elanor, I am very intrigued by your saying that there is alchemical symbolism in Charles Perrault's fairy tales! As you may recall, I said to you in an e-mail that there are many references to children's literature in HP. I have already found references to Cinderella, Hansel and Gretel, the Frog Prince, the Three Little Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf, a number of Mother Goose nursery rhymes, and possibly Sleeping Beauty (or Rumplestiltskin, or both). Hmm...Puss in Boots...I'll have to think about that, too! Could you e-mail me about the alchemy in Perrault's work? I could use this information for my newsletter.
EDIT: Hollywand, you beat me to the post, and I'm sorry you did, because your comments were AWESOME! I can't believe I never connected the flask in the hidden drawing to alchemy! And your cat comments were great, too. AND the "noble work" one was also really good.
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Hollywand - Nov 13, 2004 5:08 pm (#682 of 1121)
Thank you Round Pink Spider! It's great to have your contributions here.
This thread is such a rich discussion, it has me spoiled, such great contributions here. I hope we are hot on the trail of Hermes. And if not, having a grand time chasing her, um, him, um, them. ;-)
To further your associations on the number ten---Gob Lynn is one of the cards whose numbers gets us to a prize on the site--100 Goblins and Gringotts as clue?
200 Golden taps of the prefects: In alchemy, one of the processes is represented by the hermaprhoditic figure in an octagonal fountain. Perhaps the golden spigots are a reference to the taproot of the tree of life, often depicted in alchemy. Elanor also notes a key clue, I think: the mermaid at this site gives Harry a key clue to his development at the Triwizard Tournament. Prefects represent a key embodiment of the virtues of the houses, and again we have a transformational association with the architecture of the bathroom----as we did with the pipes in the Chamber of Secrets. I suspect the architecture of the Room of Requirement on the web site is a sly reference to this architectural association.
I'm wondering if the fact that the "Do Not Disturb" sign not reappearing, and the fact that we fanatics have achieved our seven clues means...............we're in for a treat!
Elanor, if you look on Jo's site under the FAQ, she answers the question of "who is your favorite character?" with ten---isn't that interesting? She lists, in order: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Ginny, Dumbledore, Fred and George, Lupin, and Luna Lovegood. She attaches Severus as an afterthought. I don't see a pattern there, but with your alchemist's sharp vision, perhaps you will!
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 14, 2004 5:34 am (#683 of 1121)
Hollywand, you might be interested to know that there are some symbolic indications that Harry will have one of his (unfortunate) run-ins with water in that bathroom in HBP. I believe the tub was described as a rectangle, though (*a tomb??*). We also think that the 100 golden taps with jewels in their handles around the marble tub may be connected to the 100 goblins in marble Gringotts sorting jewels.
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Elanor - Nov 14, 2004 7:54 am (#684 of 1121)
Wow, great thoughts everybody! It is always amazing what we can find when we work as a group!
Zelmia: I think that the spinning top is by itself a clue since, as Hollywand said, it spins and his colours (red and yellow, as if by chance) are mixing, just like in the image of the alchemical symbols in the round flask. BTW, you're right, the cat of "Puss in Boots" (thanks for the title BTW!) is a kind of manipulative one, but for the good of his master, not his. To summarize, the Cat manages to make a king believe that his master is the rich and generous Marquis of Carabas while he is in fact a poor miller who has nothing in life except for that cat. The cat uses ruse for defeating an ogre making him first turn into a lion and then a rat that he eats at once. After that, he pretends that the ogre's castle belongs to his master and the king, delighted, gave the "Marquis" de Carabas his daughter. It is full of alchemical hidden meanings and I don't know how the story can by itself be connected with us, except that I hope that one of our cats will be able to eat our fake rat (I don't know why, but I think that Crookshanks deserves it, don't you?).
Hollywand: what a great connection with the marble as the cat's eye! About Hermione's transformation into a cat, I think you're onto something very interesting here. Just a supposition: if we assume that the cat is the symbol that leads to the philosopher's gold, that is to say that the cat shows the right path to the alchemist, then it is logical that Hermione, as a cat, was held back since they were suspecting Draco and that it was a wrong lead.
I loved the reference to Slytherin's "noble work", I had completely forgotten that sentence!
RPS: I knew you would like that! I will send you what I have found but it is not much for now since the information is very scattered in all my books. What I can tell you for now is that each tale has an alchemical hidden meaning:
Cinderella (Cendrillon) is etymologically "the woman that always stands by the hearth",
Tom Thumb has "the seven-league boots": here, in French, there is a pun: "7 league" is said "7 lieues" (same meaning) but phonetically, you can hear it "7 lieux" (7 places), that is to say the 7 planets of the alchemical work! There is also an ogre who, as the fire, devours everything.
"Peau d'âne": I'm sorry, I don't know how she is called in English, in French her name means "skin of a donkey", the story of a young woman hiding her beauty under a donkey's skin as the black materia prima hides what will become the philosopher's gold.
That is all I have found for now, but I will post it if I can find more.
Great connections about the number 10! The 10 DE captured in MoM: that is very interesting because they were captured in the death chamber: can we see an image of their end here?
Hollywand, I love the architectural associations: there is certainly something here too! BTW, the fact that she lists 11 characters finally is interesting because the number 11 has, most of the time, an ill-fated connotation: one of those 11 might well die before the end. As she lists Snape and Luna separately of the first characters, it may even be one of these two. But I may be wrong (I don't think my vision is that sharp today LOL! ) and she may have listed them apart from the others because Luna is a new character and she makes a nuance for Snape. **searching for "Unfogging the future"**
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 8:56 am (#685 of 1121)
Another stab in the dark, Elanor---Isn't it interesting that Crookshanks is half Kneazle, which rhymes with weasel? Why did Jo choose a fantasy word to rhyme with a key animal in the story?
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Elanor - Nov 14, 2004 11:43 am (#686 of 1121)
That's curious indeed... Could etymology help us on that one? All that comes to my mind is that it could be a mix of "knight" and "weasel" but my English is not good enough to make other suppositions: what do you think it could come from?
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 12:29 pm (#687 of 1121)
Uh oh, don't get me started! :-) Now I'm thinking
Knight/night weasel/wheeze Kneel/Kneazle
Spinners End/Spin or send Draco's Detour/Fleur Delacour
Hand of Glory/Rest of the Story
ok, I'll stop ;-)
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Hollywand - Nov 14, 2004 8:52 pm (#688 of 1121)
Ok Elanor! What do you make of this??
I'm looking for cobra pictures on the net and I find this:
The green cateyed snake
This lovely celadon green snake could be the model for Slytherin. The photo I saw, it was just the color I imagine for the Slytherin house. Unfortunately, the site did not have a close up of the eye, but I assume it is cat-like and has a nocturnal pupil.
Why was I looking at cobra pictures, you may ask? Or asp? :0 I was reading a wonderful book on Ancient Egyptian animals called "An Egyptian Bestiary". At the close of the book, the author features animals from the magical realm. Here is the ureas cobra, the Greek word taken from the Egyptian urejat, "she who rises up". These amazing snakes grow to 5 feet, and can raise themselves up two or three feet to have a look. They "hood", that is, spread their skin to appear larger, and spit venom up to six feet, directed at the eye of the intruder, containing a neurotoxin that will blind if not treated. Oh, at least in this book, the Egyptian word mentoned here for snake is basliliska. Hmmm.
Ok, so what's my point, you may ask? ;-0 The magical section described as "words and image as protection against the chaos of the world" according to this book. The snake here is depicted with two heads, with a raven sitting in the middle. The snake here is also depicted with three heads, as is the unforgettable Occamy, I believe.
I do make mistakes, I admit that, but find some interesting stuff, wouldn't you say? Fun, fun, fun. Looking at the pictures of the cobras was enough to send me into cardiac arrest. Yikes.
Oh, forgot one interesting detail. The cobra's primary diet is.....other snakes. Yikes. It's a small world afterall.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 14, 2004 10:40 pm (#689 of 1121)
Hollywand, the Cobra is one of several snakes whose diet consists of other snakes the Northern Scarlet, Monterey Ringneck and King Snake are other examples such snakes. I wonder if the snakes in some way tie back into Slytherin House.
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Archangel - Nov 15, 2004 6:50 am (#690 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
The King of Snakes, the King Cobra, is known to be the largest poisonous snake in the world. Like what Nathan said, it eats other snakes thus its scientific name -- Ophiophagus hannah (Ophis = "snake"; phagein = "to eat"; hannah = "giant").
What I found very interesting about this type of snake is that it is not aggressive despite its ferocity and killing prowess. It prefers to flee if it is possible. The only time that it attacks is when it is cornered or its young is threatened. In other words, in self-defense.
We haven't seen this character in any Slytherin thus far. The current crop of Slytherins are all talk and no wand (Draco, et al) , while the older generation (DEs, LV) seem to attack just for the heck of it. They're very confrontational. I'm inclined to think that maybe, we haven't seen the real "King of Snakes". Is Salazar Slytherin really as bad as we think he is or is it because of Voldemort's actions that we have come to think that he is that bad?
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Elanor - Nov 15, 2004 12:47 pm (#691 of 1121)
Wow, great researches Hollywand! Cateyed snake, very interesting: I don't know why but it makes me think to a famous evil one: Sauron's, which is described as glazing like a cat's.
I like the image of the 3 headed snake, could these heads represent the 3 unforgivable curses, like the 3 heads of an evil snake ready to strike? But it is also like the 3 elements of the alchemical process (especially with the image of the raven) and there it becomes more ambiguous.
Interesting thoughts too Archangel! Slytherin may not have been that bad at the beginning, when he found Hogwarts with the 3 others, but the building of the Chamber of secrets and his little basilisk pet makes me wonder what happened to him to lead him there...
Which makes me think that I have found something very interesting about the basilisk: I will try and post it tomorrow (I'm really sorry, but I have a bad cold and I am too tired and "under the weather" to do it today, but I will do it soon, I promise!).
BTW, Hollywand: do you think the weasle knight will kneel for a wheezing kneazle at night? LOL!I love those plays on words...
May I ask you something BTW? What do you mean by "the unforgettable Occamy"? Please forgive a foggy mind tonight but I have some trouble understanding it because it makes me think to Guillaume d'Occam's story, is it about him?
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Hollywand - Nov 15, 2004 1:06 pm (#692 of 1121)
I hope you feel better soon Elanor! We will brew up a nice "cold chasing" potion for you....let's make it of hot chocolate and some fire whisky......whipped cream with that? I wish I could give my down boots to you to keep your feet warm....
Regarding the Occamy---there are a bunch of snakes described in the Fantastic Beasts section on the Lex---I am assuming Newt Scamander is our source here. He/she describes a three headed snake, one head acts, one head fears, one head criticizes. Sounds like our gallant trio! And probably Jo's internal conflicts trying to be creative with the whole world hanging, postulating and gesticulating over every hyphen. The Occamy generally moves forward when two of the snake heads gang up on the other one, and bite its head off! Sounds like our trio?
The other is a fire adder, whose eggs catch fire if left unattended, it's a sort of Sidewinder---I bet these snakes appear in the forthcoming books!
Have a nice rest, Elanor, and get well. We need you for our Quidditch team!
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zelmia - Nov 15, 2004 9:02 pm (#693 of 1121)
I believe Hollywand is referring to the Runespoor, the 3-headed snake which does appear in FB but also in real mythology of ... I think it's India(?)
The Ashwinder is the "snake" from FB that leaves its flammable eggs around the house. But there is a Fire Crab.
What about the "in essence divided" device? Could that come into play here? It's just that I thougt of that thing when reading that description of the 2-headed snake with the raven in the middle.
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Elanor - Nov 16, 2004 12:44 pm (#694 of 1121)
Thank you so much Hollywand! That was so sweet of you! Well, the cold seems to become a kind of flu, but my poor brain seems a little less foggy than it was yesterday (maybe fire whisky helped, though I never dare to mix it with hot chocolate, I will have to try it...) BTW, I was thinking about alcohol, the water that burns, and therefore the perfect couple of opposites for alchemists, and Jo, as if by chance, calls the wizards' whisky "firewhisky... There is a long time now that I don't believe to things happening "by chance" in her universe...
Thanks for the explanations! And thank you too Zelmia! How could I forget the Occamy and the other fantastic snakes mentioned in FB?
Anyway, one snake, three heads: that is the perfect image of alchemy, don't you think so? Mercur, sulfur and salt: they are 3 but they are one too, this is the triad symbol again! So, it could be the perfect image of all the triads we already encountered in the story, beginning with HRH of course. Well, symbolically, Harry and Ron often manage not to hear Hermione's criticisms and act as planned, though, most of the time, they should have listened to her. When they do that, they "cut her head", in a way.
The "essence divided" device could maybe be connected to it too because it comes from the same image: one but several at the same time, the Hen ta penta, the ouroboros.
BTW, while skimming throug FB, I saw something that never occured to me before: there is an entry about the Ramora! And the ramora is also an alchemical symbol... It symbolizes the end of the second work, sometimes compared to Noah's journey during the Flood, because the Ramora stops his boat and allow the water to calm down, as do the work before the "phoenix" comes.
We've not seen the ramora yet, nor the other snakes: I wish we will soon! Anyway, the simple fact that Jo mentions them in FB is very significant, don't you think so?
EDIT: I've got it now! I know why the 3 headed snake was reminding me of sulfur, mercury and salt! I have an illustration, in one of my books, showing those 3 elements as a dragon with three heads!
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 5:29 pm (#695 of 1121)
Thanks, Zelmia, I had no idea the Runespoor was based on a mythological snake. I figured Jo was referring to Runes.
The double headed snake with the raven sitting between them would be a key alchemical process, the black crow. We have been speculating some that Severus may be the individual that will act as the black crow nigredo figure, the Sever the Snake figure.
I have heard that some of the mythological origins are based upon genetic mix ups---in fact, one culture may have witnessed a double headed snake and incorporated it into mythology. Some have speculated that dragon mythology arises from discovery of dinosaur bones, and the human attempt to explain these amazing creatures.
I'm sure it's dead by now, but the San Francisco Bay Aquarium in Golden Gate park used to have a tank with a pair of fish conjoined at the belly. One fish would swim on top for a bit, the other would swim on top for a bit. I was amazed by them, and they were great fun to watch.
Elanor, your mention of the three headed snake as an alchemical triad also lead me to think of Fluffy, who also had three heads and was soothed by music. Could be an alchemical association there. I will think about other triads in the series.
Again, I hope you are feeling better.
I want to thank everyone who contributes to this thread and is so open minded to discussion and association. It's just wonderful! I am also amazed at the number of people who seem to have memorized the entire text, but still don't see a fraction of the associations. What a paradox!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 8, 2006 11:00 am (#696 of 1121)
When I hear mention made of Occamy I am reminded of William of Occam and his famous Razor. I wonder what role Occam's Razor will play,
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 7:17 pm (#697 of 1121)
The snakes with multiple heads but with one body sort of reminds me of conjoined ("siamese") twins. Although there is an operation to separate them, I believe that it is very dangerous and the odds that both twins will live after the operation is quite small. I think the odds increase if the twins do not share a vital organ, though.
This sort of made me think about Harry and Voldemort and Harry's scar. The scar is the physical manifestation of their connection and removing it might be very dangerous to both of them. In PS/SS McGonagall asked DD to remove the scar and DD said that it might someday be helpful. I think DD knows more about the scar than he let McG on.
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A couple of posts back, Elanor made a connection between fairy tales and alchemy, most notably Puss in Boots. It got me thinking about the name Puss gave the poor guy -- CARABAS. If you actually rearrange the letters, you get "A SCARAB".
"The scarab is a type of beetle noted for rolling dung into spherical balls and pushing it, as well as its habit of laying its eggs in animal dung. Because most of the scarab species work with dung they are commonly referred to as dung beetles." Mundungus anyone?
A scarab is also prominent in ancient Egyptian traditions. They associate it with life and rebirth. When Egyptians undergo the mummification process, a stone scarab is placed over their hearts and this acts as a replacement heart in the afterlife.
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As you know, the ancient Egyptians believed that death is not the end of life but the start of a new journey (sounds like DD's view huh?) albeit a dangerous one. The goal of that journey is to reach the land of gods and to do so, they must first traverse the land of the dead. The Book of Dead contains the necessary texts, spells, etc. that they would need to pass the tests in their journey.
However, such spells and enchantments are rendered useless in one particular test -- the weighing of the heart! They believed that a person's heart notes all the person's bad and good deeds throughout his life. This test happens in the "Hall of Judgement" where the dead is led by Anubis. The deceased's heart is then weighed against Maat's feather of truth. Afterwards, Horus (the falcon god) leads them to Osiris for verdict. If the verdict is unfavorable, the demon Ammit (the Eater of Hearts) devours the deceased. Ammit is a female demon composed of crocodile, lion, and hippopotamus.
I think that the "Heart" in this test is synonymous to a wizard's wand. The wand chooses the wizard and it means that the wand sees something in the wizard that it can really connect to. If we look at it this way, the wizard and his wand are really bound together for life. Broken wand = "broken heart" =? death. How many wizards do we know that have broken wands that are still alive and are fully functioning in society? Hagrid might be next to bite the dust since he has a broken wand.
The wand also keeps note of all the spells/magic it had performed -- good and bad -- and it can be revealed via the Priori Incantatem spell. In GoF, we even had a chapter called The Weighing of the Wands and to Harry, he felt like he was being judged. He even tried to clean his wand by rubbing it in his cloak, right?
Anubis = Guardian of the Dead. Oh by the way, he has a head of a jackal or a dog! Grim = Omen of Death = Sirius Black
Ammit = Eater of Hearts, Devourer of the Dead. Death eater?
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I apologize for the long post. It's hard to stop once you get on a roll.
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 7:39 pm (#698 of 1121)
Nathan, I would love to learn more about Occam and his famous razor and how it might be associated with the Occamy of Infamy. ok, I made that last part up.
Archangel, very enjoyable post about the scar/wand/Sirius associations. It sparked me to think of Sirius presiding over the trial of Voldemort in the underworld. Nice.
The comment about Dung---he is an agent of commerce between the wizarding world. I have also thought of Rita, as she is the beetle that deals back and forth in the trade of trashy gossip.
I would also like to bounce some ideas related to your remarks about the scar and the wand. I believe the scar may be a gift from Fawkes and not Voldemort, and this could be why Dumbledore knows the scar will be useful to Harry.
Fawkes may have gifted Dumbledore with his scar.
Since the core of Voldemort's wand belongs to Fawkes, and Fawkes has appeared at several junctures in different guises to defend Harry and Dumbledore, Fawkes could also have appeared to defend Harry the baby from Voldemort's AK curse.
This would explain why Voldemort survived but was vaporized (as he belongs to Fawkes) and Harry receives the stigmata, the scar that burns like fire every time he connects with the dark lord.
Fawkes is a sort of fatemaker, and binds the two wizards to their conjoined destiny. Fawkes is the cage of light, reversing the Kundalini of Voldemort. Fawkes blinds the basilisk. Fawkes swallows the green snake AK defending Dumbledore, and bursts into flames. Why not that night at Godric's Hollow?
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zelmia - Nov 16, 2004 8:21 pm (#699 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand. I don't think it would ever have occured to me that Fawkes might have given Harry the scar. I remember you had mentioned (maybe on another Thread) that Fawkes had protected Harry at Godric's Hollow the same we he protected DD and the Battle of the Ministry. But even with that line of thinking, I never would have made that connection. Well done!
This is a bit of a change of subject, but I came across this on the Alchemy Web Site (Maier's Musical Emblems)
When the unborn child,
which lies hidden in the womb of the North wind,
One day will rise to the light alive
He alone will be able to surpass all deeds of heroism
With his art, his hand, bodily strength and spirit,
Let him not be born for you like a Coeso, and not as a useless abortion,
Not as an Agrippa, but under a lucky star.
Sounds just a bit like the Prophecy to me...
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 8:47 pm (#700 of 1121)
Hollywand, Sirius presiding over Voldemort's trial now that would be something. He probably takes one good look at LV and says to Horus, "Seriously, do we REALLY even need to do this?"
About the Fawkes-scars connection, good catch and interesting idea. Hagrid did comment in PS/SS that after the Potter's attack that the house was destroyed. (No book with me so can't give the exact quote) I've always found this weird since from what we've seen of the AK curse, there's hardly any destruction made to the surrounding environment. The person who is AK-ed just falls to the ground dead.
However, when Fawkes swallowed the AK curse in MoM, he burst into flames! If the battle took place in an enclosed space, he would have incinerated and destroyed everything. Imagine a bomb going off inside a wooden barrel! BOOM!
Perhaps when Voldemort AK-ed Harry, Fawkes magically appeared as you suggested, swallowed the AK and burst into flame and since it happened in an enclosed space, the house got destroyed. I imagine the roof being blasted to bits and the glasses shattered. Hagrid found Harry alright but with a scar -- the sign of Fawkes' protection and the mark of Voldemort's attack.
(Another twist of this is what if DD sends Fawkes regularly to check on the Potters' and Longbottoms' sons -- just waiting for Voldemort's attack. Then the attack happened and Fawkes just did what he was sent out to do -- protect the boy that was attacked so he may live to fulfill the prophecy.
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 701 to 725)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:01 am
zelmia - Nov 16, 2004 8:53 pm (#701 of 1121)
I think what Elanor needs is some Pepper-Up Potion...
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#702 of 1121)
Thanks, friends. You are wonderful! Now, if Voldemort should show up at 4 Privet and try the AK---Dursleys go boom?
Nathan, I found references on Occam's razor---I do think Jo's making a funny reference to simplicity. ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#703 of 1121)
Here is a link to a biographical sketch of William of Ockham from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
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Here are two sites related to Occam's Razor:
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Nathan
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 9:24 pm (#704 of 1121)
I found an interesting connection between a dragon and a cat.
The constellation Draco (Dragon) has a star cluster around where its neck bends that is called "Cat's Eye Nebula". This cluster is called as such because the group resembles that of a cat's eye. Draco in Greek mythos was said to be the dragon that protected the golden apples, one of which Hercules must steal as part of his Twelve Great Labors.
I've posted in another thread about the similarities that I noticed between Hercules and Harry. It's interesting that one of Herc's labors is to get past the dragon and get the golden apple. One of Harry's annual "labors" is to get past Malfoy during their quidditch matches to get the golden snitch. Haha!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 16, 2004 9:34 pm (#705 of 1121)
An interesting thought occurred to me another connection with the number 10.
Since, the of the founding of Hogwarts in 1000 A.D., ten royal houses have ruled over the muggles of England.
Windsor, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Hanover, Stuart, Tudor, York, Lancaster, Plantagenet or House of Anjou, The House of Normandy and the House of Wessex.
Nathan
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 9:48 pm (#706 of 1121)
This little cauldron is flamin' away tonight! Great connections!
I love the connections to Hercules and to the lineage of the Royal family! Yee haaaaa!
I'll adder two more newts: :-)
Only a Potter fanatic would understand that joke....
On the Jo's web site, we have two agents that are critical to the site, but are beyond the viewer's control....
1) the butterfly changes, from color to monochromatic, a phoenix time change between day and night. The dark phoenix has no color at night. It is the butterfly/phoenix that disappears as Dumbledore's watch reveals its mysterious alchemical face. One can never touch the butterfly.
2) the spirit of chaos, Peeves. Peeves is an agent of change on every portkey, revealing information, code of the phone, in the scapbook.
Is Peeves a pivotal alchemical character we should be pondering? Have his actions in the book held important clues? Are his fear of the Bloody Baron and the fate of the Wizarding World connected?
When Peeves and the phoenix butterfly intersect in time, the mysterious face of Dumbledore's watch is revealed.
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 10:03 pm (#707 of 1121)
Random Observations and Connections
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In ancient Egyptian mythology, the sun god Ra dies every sunset and is reborn every sunrise. Being an all powerful god, he had enemies and the most feared is Apophis, the great serpent. People feared that at night Ra would be attacked and killed and thus putting the control of the universe to Apophis.
However, in came the lions. The lions would look into the setting sun and they would keep the rays of the sun in their eyes (the cat's eye). With that "fire burning in their eyes", they would patrol the land and kill all the serpents that Apophis sent to destroy Ra at night.
This is the story that inspired the creation of the Sphinx -- body of the lion, head of the pharoah, an image of the sun god Ra watching over Egypt.
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Interesting in the PoA movie, Hermione says "Cats are worshipped in Ancient Egypt" To which Ron retorts, "Yeah, so are dung beetles."
Not only are the two animals considered sacred, they're both royal symbols! Clue to HBP's identity? Hmmmm...
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Number associations to tarot and alchemy
Interesting the number 3 is associated to the 4 elements hinting that it is a complete number! Four (4) is associated to the element of fire and the rune , "dagaz".
"Dagaz: (D: Day or dawn.) Breakthrough, awakening, awareness. Daylight clarity as opposed to night-time uncertainty. A time to plan or embark upon an enterprise. The power of change directed by your own will, transformation. Hope/happiness, the ideal. Security and certainty. Growth and release. Balance point, the place where opposites meet. Dagaz Merkstave (Dagaz cannot be reversed, but may lie in opposition): A completion, ending, limit, coming full circle. Blindness, hopelessness."
#4 Privet Drive? The place where our story begun is where it will all end?
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Elanor - Nov 17, 2004 10:18 am (#708 of 1121)
Hello everybody! Wow, you've been busy! I don't know where to start, so I guess I will start from the moment I left that thread because I wouldn't want to forget something.
Hollywand, I loved the connection you made (#695) about Severus, the black crow, the Sever the Snake figure, between the double headed snake. One head could be Voldemort of course and the other one the DE: if Snape sever Voldemort's head, the DE' head will have nobody to listen too and the snake will die (with the crow?).
Nathan: when Hollywand first talked about the Occamy, I thought to William of Occam too, except that I forgot to translate his name when I posted about him and called him Guillaume, sorry! This is an interesting *hum*coincidence*hum* anyway, it could be a way to tell us: the truth is very simple if you know what to search for.
Archangel: I loved the Cabaras anagram! It works in French too (scarabée). In itself, it is an alchemical symbol coming from the Egyptian one of resurrection. In alchemy, it rolls a ball of fire. This is the symbol of the third level of the athanor, leading to the philosopher's stone and the Elixir of life.
Zelmia: I loved your "prophecy" too! In alchemy, the child is the symbol of the Philosopher's gold, born from the wedding of the King and the Queen, the Sun and the Moon. It is a very poetic way of saying it, thank you for sharing it with us!
I found your discussion about Fawkes and Harry's scar very interesting. I was just wondering the role of Lily if it happened like that: how could her death could have given Harry his protection against Voldemort if Fawkes actually saved him. Voldemort himself seems to think that it was Lily's sacrifice that made the curse fail. The only possibility I see is that Fawkes would have arrived just after Lily's death and "reinforced" the magic she put on Harry. But I can definitely see him finding baby Harry, heal him (except for the scar) if the explosion hurt him and showing Hagrid where to find him.
I loved what you wrote about Hercules' labors! Will you believe me if I tell you that hercules's labors are also alchemical symbols? They symbolize the preparation of the philosophical salt. It is a long and difficult work not only to prepare it but also to measure out the right quantity you need for the work. When Hercules's labors are finished, all the alchemist has to do is to keep the fire burning the right way. Hence the Cinderella (Cendrillon) reference we were talking about: Cinderella means "the woman that always stands by the hearth".
Sorry for the length but there were so many great ideas! I almost forgot: Hollywand, great connections with Jo's site symbols: you're right, we should think a little bit more to Peeves...
Thanks for all your wishes BTW! I'm a little better today. Which reminds me it is time for my potion... Do you think I can add some fire whisky in the pepper-up potion?
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 10:58 am (#709 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, I am glad you are feeling better, and I hope our little game here has brought you some respite from the cold's grip.
Your connections to the alchemical process are wonderful. Since you began the discussion of the cat imagery here, and we have been looking for associations, I would like to shop this theory around, even though it may require full body armour afterward! ;-)
Archangel's wonderful passage set me to pondering the associations the Ancient Egyptians had with lions. I loved the passage about the cat-s eye keeping the ray of light, protecting the spiritual traveller from being swallowed by the snake. It set me to thinking that in Egypt, the lion also represented the destructive power of nature, embodied in Sekmet, the woman with the lion's head. Could there be a parallel with this mythical figure in the Potter series?
There have been many references to Ginny as cat-like. She was taken below by the dark lord, and possessed. She seems to undergo a marked personality change, and becomes much more aggressive.
Just wondering, hold your fire, if she may take a few more turns toward the Slytherin side of the equation.
From early on, I have wondered if perhaps she will eventually be paired with Draco, as this would transform his character, and make for a real change in the Slytherin nature: two pure blooded wizards, with compassion affixed also. This pairing would embody the dragon, the lion and the snake in another guise.
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Solitaire - Nov 17, 2004 11:10 am (#710 of 1121)
I don't understand how Voldemort could have been vaporized if Fawkes swallowed the AK. Fawkes swallowed the curse in the DoM, and Voldemort wasn't vaporized.
Isn't the scar how Voldemort "marked" Harry? Would Harry be getting Voldemort's thoughts and experiences if he were not connected via the scar?
As for the house being in ruins ... if a battle took place there, it stands to reason there would be destruction. Consider the shape the Ministry was in following the battle, and I'm sure it was a lot stronger than a mere house. Unless Voldemort just walked in and AK'd everyone before they knew what hit 'em, can't we assume there was some attempt at defense by James and Lily? If so, then surely things would have been destroyed in the process.
A few posts back, someone mentioned a snake with more than one head. A Hydra? Every time one head was chopped off, two more grew back in its place. Hercules finally had to burn the stumps to prevent this. Could this be connected to the fire in the alchemy process?
Another snake ... The Medusa (the Gorgon with snakes for hair) turned people to stone when they looked at her (like the basilisk). I found an interesting site with info about Perseus and the Medusa that reminded me of some of Harry's battles. The following section jumped out at me:
Perseus plays a role in the myth of Medusa that all Greeks may have fantasized about. He actually confronted and defeated death! The meaning of the four articles needed for this task were crucial to his success. First, the harpe, or scythe (GG's sword?), needed to be large and sharp enough to kill in one slice to prevent awakening the victim and falling into her trap. Second the sandals of Hermes are needed to fly Perseus swiftly beyond the realm of this world to where the Gorgons dwell. These sandals are also a crucial item in Perseus' retreat. Thirdly, the cap of Hades is needed to enclose Perseus in darkness so the Gorgons will not be able to see him coming or leaving (Harry's invisibility cloak?). The fourth item is a kibisis, or bag, needed to hold Medusa's head. This is essential to protect Perseus and others from the still potent eyes (the basilisk's eyes? Lily's eyes?) of Medusa. The fact that Perseus succeeds in his quest catapults him into being the conqueror of death, signifying that death has no hold over him. This is backed further by the wearing of the cap of Hades, lord over the dead. To wear this cap is to become like the dead, able to see the world but yet remain unseen.
I wondered if the cap could be connected to the Sorting Hat. I can't think of a connection to Hermes' sandals ...
If this doesn't belong here--and if you feel it makes no sense--feel free to delete it! My feelings won't be hurt.
Solitaire
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 11:41 am (#711 of 1121)
Solitaire, the text to me seems open to interpretation. "Marking" could be interpreted as several different actions, not just the scar. If the scar were a gift from Fawkes, it would certainly change the meaning of the scar significantly. The books rely on ambiguities for unmined meanings. Fawkes appears a number of times in the confrontation between the two wizards. When Fawkes swallows the AK and explodes, Voldemort does become a nothingness and leaps into Harry's mind. That seems a sort of shape changing on Voldemort's behalf brought on by the phoenix.
The connection and rebound brought about by the equivalent oppositional energy of the two wizards could be especially powerful and destructive, and destroy the house. Architectural destruction, as we have discussed earlier, seems to be used as a metaphor for a rite of passage.
Voldemort survives as vapor, perhaps, because his core wand is also connected to Fawkes.
Until the final book arrives and the final page is turned, many of the words in the Potter text are as fluid as quicksilver, as ambiguous as the messages of Hermes. Even after that, we will probably still have a host of questions to ponder. In my opinion, have very limited interpretations of the text, and can dissuade others' expressing differing perspectives.
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Solitaire - Nov 17, 2004 12:25 pm (#712 of 1121)
Assuming that is actually what happened, I suppose my question about Fawkes/Voldemort would be this: Why didn't the same thing happen with Voldemort when he attempted to curse Dumbledore in the DoM and Fawkes swallowed the curse? Is it due to the fact that Voldemort's substance has become something different than it was when he attempted to AK Harry? If Voldemort became a "nothingness" the first time, why not the second time?
If Voldemort is now mortal, it would seem like the curse should be MORE apt to kill him than when he was immortal. Just questions ... and I agree that we will probably have to wait to really know what happened.
Solitaire
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Elanor - Nov 17, 2004 1:09 pm (#713 of 1121)
About Fawkes, honestly, I don't know what to think. It seems to me that though both Harry's and Voldemort's hand have one of his feathers, he has chosen his side for a long time now. I think that if he could have helped Harry as a baby he would certainly have done it, but there are a lot of ways of helping someone. He was not necessarily the one who stopped the curse. If he just saw what happened and came telling it to DD, allowing him to send Hagrid there at once, he certainly saved Harry too, before DE found him first for example.
About Ginny cat-like attitude, there is certainly something here! I think that what we have found about the cat symbol can apply to her too. The cat shows the alchemist the right path he has to follow, right? Well, at least twice, if the trio had asked her properly, she would have send them in the right direction: during CoS of course but also in OotP: if Harry had asked her when he thought he was possessed he would have spared himself a lot of pain! When they finally talked about it, she indeed told them it wasn't the path to follow. Could you think to other times she should have show the direction to follow? BTW, Hollywand, what you wrote about Egypt was great!
Ginny and Draco? Mmm, why not? She seems to have curious tastes about boys indeed (Harry excepted) but I think he would have to change a lot before it happens... Here we say "mettre de l'eau dans son vin" (to put some water in your wine), curious when we think that we said that Ginny's name could be connected with vinegar, isn't it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 17, 2004 4:07 pm (#714 of 1121)
Solitaire, I am inclined to agree with your observations. Fawkes absorbed the blast of the AK directed by Voldemort at Dumbledore. As such the effect of the spell was in all probability altered in some fashion as Fawkes is as close to an immortal being as is possible. If Fawkes swallowed the AK directed at Harry it seemsunlikely that the resulting chain reactions would have destroyed the house.
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 5:31 pm (#715 of 1121)
Sorry, guys, but I enjoy dreaming about expanding possibilities rather than pinning down the logic of magic, which seems an oxymoron to me. So, pardon if I move on to a different consideration. I'm just not that interested in predicting how magic works, relationship speculation or lengthy psychological analysis of the characters. Book six will hopefully provide more explanation.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 17, 2004 9:31 pm (#716 of 1121)
Hollywand, the points that have been outlined above are necessary to adequately understand the even the simpliest alchemical processes. Because, the ability to evolve(transmutate) is dependent upon the complex interrelationships that exist between characters and the psycholgical make up of individuals such as Sirius and Severus are the keys to understanding why the will never reach the silver, platinum, or gold stages of development. As such speculations as they relate to relationships enable us to judge with more precision where each character is in their development.
Now onto another aspect of the books. As they relate to the triad of knights who were successful in the Grail Quest. Of these I believe that an analogy can be drawn between Percival as the Keeper of the Word and Neville as evidenced by their natures. There also seems to be a parallel between Sir. Galahad as the original Guardian of the Grail and the occupier of the Siege Perilous, and Harry as the one marked to defeat Voldemort.
If this is the case with what figure can a parallel be drawn with Sir. Bors?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 4:07 am (#717 of 1121)
Sir Bors
"He became a great warrior, wielding Duke Galeholt's sword and easily recognized by a distinctive scar on his forehead."
Also, Sir Bors was only one who survived the Quest for the Holy Grail and returned to court.
Couldn't Harry be the three knights rolled into one?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 6:00 am (#718 of 1121)
I checked on who Galeholt is and he turns out to be Lancelot's closest companion. Here's the link to reference material I found in the 'Net.
I read about Percival and also noticed the similarities that Nathan mentioned in his post between him and Neville.
For one, although Percival possessed natural skills in jousting and swordsmanship, he was ignorant of how to conduct himself before the court and the likes. This is the reason why the other knights first thought that he was a fool and rather unbecoming of a knight. The reason for this ignorance was his mother. She kept him ignorant about such things (knights and duties, etc) because she was tired of losing the men in her life to wars.
This is exactly what Granny is doing to Neville. She keeps on putting him down, saying the boy is not as talented as his father, etc., and Neville has subscribed to this thought. (Who wouldn't?! Esp. if you've been hearing it all your life!) However, we were very suprised with his development in OoP when he finally got the guidance and the encouragement from Harry and his peers. Even his teachers (McG, I think) didn't consider him as having a bad/poor mind and that he just lacked the confidence. I think Granny might be using this tactic in order to dissuade her grandson from possibly taking on a dangerous role/job in the wizarding world based on what happened to Frank.
Also, Percival was considered as the "original" Grail knight but was later eclipsed by Galahad in the other Grail tales, and so it became common knowledge that when one speaks of the Holy Grail, the first knight that comes to mind is Galahad.
Hmmm, could it be that Neville was the one really being alluded to in the prophecy but was "spared" of that when Voldemort sought out a half-blood kid named Harry?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 6:53 am (#719 of 1121)
Drat! The edit session keeps expiring on me. I apologize for my multiple posts in advance.
Another central Grail character, I think, is the Fisher King. Some Grail tales say that the Fisher King is the same as the Maimed King but in also those tales, they say that the King was severely wounded in his thighs. IMHO, they're one and the same, however feel free to disagree. Some tales say it was Percival who healed the King, while others say it was Galahad. Anywho, the one who heals him inherits the Grail and lance, as well as his land.
This made me think about the character that JKR described in her website. She described him with someone who walks with a limp and quite old but someone who carries himself with grace. Also interesting is that one of the titles in HBP is Spinners End. I made a random search for how the word spinner is used and came up with this interesting entry -- "A fishing lure that rotates rapidly". The Fisher King became known as such because in one particular tale, when he got injured he just busied himself fishing while waiting for the knight who'll heal him.
I'm not sure how this will all play out (esp. since HBP's not out yet) and how we could connect it with other symbolisms but I thought I'd share this with you.
BTW, thanks Nathan for making this connection between character tranformation and the story of the Grail!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 18, 2004 10:25 am (#720 of 1121)
Archangel, the postulation that Harry is all three knights combined into one character is a most fascinating allusion. That is one I will have to ponder on.
The healing aspect of the story of the Grail as it relates to Fisher King has been discussed previously but with the following description:
He looked rather like an old lion. there were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he has keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire -rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp.
that J.K. Rowling gave of a new character in July tend to give more credence to the idea.
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Elanor - Nov 18, 2004 12:27 pm (#721 of 1121)
The cauldron is bubbling again I see! Great!
What is very interesting is that the symbolism of the Grail comes close to the Philosopher's stone symbolism because the quest of the Grail symbolizes every research of personal spiritual progress.
The grail is bound to the colour red and the symbolism of the blood, as is the Stone and, like the stone, it remains invisible for who does not deserve to approach it.
I like the idea of Harry being the 3 knights combined into one character: here again we find a triad: 3 = 1!
Now, speaking of the Arthurian cycle, one of the medieval authors of that cycle was Chrétien de Troyes (Christian of Troyes maybe in English?) and one of his "novels" is called "Yvain ou le Chevalier au lion" (Yvain or the Knight with the lion). There are two interesting things about Yvain:
1 - he fought and defeated a snake thanks to a lion. The lion, after this fight, becomes Yvain's true friend...
2 - this image of Yvain's lion fighting a snake was used by alchemists, symbolizing the fight of Sulphur and Mercury!
Well, if we see Harry as Yvain, the knight, he will befriend the lion-like new character who will help him to vanquish the Voldemort/snake!
What do you think about it?
BTW: I'm sorry, my dictionary doesn't give me Yvain's name in English, MrsRobert and Collins should definitely sort out their priorities... May I ask you what's his English name?
PS: this is a saying alchemists used and that I found very appropriate for us:
"Ora lege lege lege relege laborata et invenies" : "Pray, read, read, read and reread, work and you will find"
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Julie Aronson - Nov 18, 2004 5:47 pm (#722 of 1121)
Continuing the Arthurian theme...
Sir Gawaine is often reported to have magically fluctuating strength. It increases as the sun rises and fades as the sun sets. Since we are talking about so much other waxing and waning, this info seems to fit here.
I actually see Ron as a Gawaine-type character. He has the same coloring and rather mercurial nature. They are also both from huge families where, again depending on which story you read, either only the mother, or both parents, are magical. However, I have never heard of Gawaine having a sister--just LOTS of brothers. With a bit of thought (since I just now got the idea) I could probably match them up. HMMMMmmm maybe Percy and Agravaine--they both made some very stupid decisions in attempts at gaining power...
Gawaine was essentially on the side of good, but lacked the self-control and discipline to gain the Grail (not to mention his rather extensive impurity, but to keep it G-rated I'll just leave that alone!)
Elanor,
I have some Christien de Troyes, so I'll try to look up Yvaine and see what I can get from it.
Julie
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 18, 2004 8:39 pm (#723 of 1121)
Julie, Gawaine like Ron also had also had 5 brothers namely Gaheris, Gareth, Agravain, Modred, and Tor.
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zelmia - Nov 18, 2004 9:04 pm (#724 of 1121)
Here's a short bio for those who, like me, are not familiar with this character. YVAIN BLURB
One thing that did stand out to me was "A maidservant, Lunete, gave him a ring of invisibility which enabled him to escape" Of course I though immediately of Messieurs Baggins and Co. Another line was this: " On the way home, he rescued a lion from combat with a serpent". It reminds me of a couple of things. Androcles and the Lion and also one of the emblems I've seen. Maybe Maier?
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Julie Aronson - Nov 19, 2004 3:18 am (#725 of 1121)
NZ:
Sometimes Mordred is a cousin, not a brother--it depends on whether Morgause and Morgan le Fay are sisters, or aunt and niece, or related at all. King Lot of Lothian is his father, though, in every version I've read.
One thing you can count on in the Arthurian legend is inconsistency!
Julie
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I think what Elanor needs is some Pepper-Up Potion...
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#702 of 1121)
Thanks, friends. You are wonderful! Now, if Voldemort should show up at 4 Privet and try the AK---Dursleys go boom?
Nathan, I found references on Occam's razor---I do think Jo's making a funny reference to simplicity. ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#703 of 1121)
Here is a link to a biographical sketch of William of Ockham from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
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Here are two sites related to Occam's Razor:
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Nathan
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 9:24 pm (#704 of 1121)
I found an interesting connection between a dragon and a cat.
The constellation Draco (Dragon) has a star cluster around where its neck bends that is called "Cat's Eye Nebula". This cluster is called as such because the group resembles that of a cat's eye. Draco in Greek mythos was said to be the dragon that protected the golden apples, one of which Hercules must steal as part of his Twelve Great Labors.
I've posted in another thread about the similarities that I noticed between Hercules and Harry. It's interesting that one of Herc's labors is to get past the dragon and get the golden apple. One of Harry's annual "labors" is to get past Malfoy during their quidditch matches to get the golden snitch. Haha!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 16, 2004 9:34 pm (#705 of 1121)
An interesting thought occurred to me another connection with the number 10.
Since, the of the founding of Hogwarts in 1000 A.D., ten royal houses have ruled over the muggles of England.
Windsor, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Hanover, Stuart, Tudor, York, Lancaster, Plantagenet or House of Anjou, The House of Normandy and the House of Wessex.
Nathan
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Hollywand - Nov 16, 2004 9:48 pm (#706 of 1121)
This little cauldron is flamin' away tonight! Great connections!
I love the connections to Hercules and to the lineage of the Royal family! Yee haaaaa!
I'll adder two more newts: :-)
Only a Potter fanatic would understand that joke....
On the Jo's web site, we have two agents that are critical to the site, but are beyond the viewer's control....
1) the butterfly changes, from color to monochromatic, a phoenix time change between day and night. The dark phoenix has no color at night. It is the butterfly/phoenix that disappears as Dumbledore's watch reveals its mysterious alchemical face. One can never touch the butterfly.
2) the spirit of chaos, Peeves. Peeves is an agent of change on every portkey, revealing information, code of the phone, in the scapbook.
Is Peeves a pivotal alchemical character we should be pondering? Have his actions in the book held important clues? Are his fear of the Bloody Baron and the fate of the Wizarding World connected?
When Peeves and the phoenix butterfly intersect in time, the mysterious face of Dumbledore's watch is revealed.
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Archangel - Nov 16, 2004 10:03 pm (#707 of 1121)
Random Observations and Connections
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In ancient Egyptian mythology, the sun god Ra dies every sunset and is reborn every sunrise. Being an all powerful god, he had enemies and the most feared is Apophis, the great serpent. People feared that at night Ra would be attacked and killed and thus putting the control of the universe to Apophis.
However, in came the lions. The lions would look into the setting sun and they would keep the rays of the sun in their eyes (the cat's eye). With that "fire burning in their eyes", they would patrol the land and kill all the serpents that Apophis sent to destroy Ra at night.
This is the story that inspired the creation of the Sphinx -- body of the lion, head of the pharoah, an image of the sun god Ra watching over Egypt.
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Interesting in the PoA movie, Hermione says "Cats are worshipped in Ancient Egypt" To which Ron retorts, "Yeah, so are dung beetles."
Not only are the two animals considered sacred, they're both royal symbols! Clue to HBP's identity? Hmmmm...
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Number associations to tarot and alchemy
Interesting the number 3 is associated to the 4 elements hinting that it is a complete number! Four (4) is associated to the element of fire and the rune , "dagaz".
"Dagaz: (D: Day or dawn.) Breakthrough, awakening, awareness. Daylight clarity as opposed to night-time uncertainty. A time to plan or embark upon an enterprise. The power of change directed by your own will, transformation. Hope/happiness, the ideal. Security and certainty. Growth and release. Balance point, the place where opposites meet. Dagaz Merkstave (Dagaz cannot be reversed, but may lie in opposition): A completion, ending, limit, coming full circle. Blindness, hopelessness."
#4 Privet Drive? The place where our story begun is where it will all end?
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Elanor - Nov 17, 2004 10:18 am (#708 of 1121)
Hello everybody! Wow, you've been busy! I don't know where to start, so I guess I will start from the moment I left that thread because I wouldn't want to forget something.
Hollywand, I loved the connection you made (#695) about Severus, the black crow, the Sever the Snake figure, between the double headed snake. One head could be Voldemort of course and the other one the DE: if Snape sever Voldemort's head, the DE' head will have nobody to listen too and the snake will die (with the crow?).
Nathan: when Hollywand first talked about the Occamy, I thought to William of Occam too, except that I forgot to translate his name when I posted about him and called him Guillaume, sorry! This is an interesting *hum*coincidence*hum* anyway, it could be a way to tell us: the truth is very simple if you know what to search for.
Archangel: I loved the Cabaras anagram! It works in French too (scarabée). In itself, it is an alchemical symbol coming from the Egyptian one of resurrection. In alchemy, it rolls a ball of fire. This is the symbol of the third level of the athanor, leading to the philosopher's stone and the Elixir of life.
Zelmia: I loved your "prophecy" too! In alchemy, the child is the symbol of the Philosopher's gold, born from the wedding of the King and the Queen, the Sun and the Moon. It is a very poetic way of saying it, thank you for sharing it with us!
I found your discussion about Fawkes and Harry's scar very interesting. I was just wondering the role of Lily if it happened like that: how could her death could have given Harry his protection against Voldemort if Fawkes actually saved him. Voldemort himself seems to think that it was Lily's sacrifice that made the curse fail. The only possibility I see is that Fawkes would have arrived just after Lily's death and "reinforced" the magic she put on Harry. But I can definitely see him finding baby Harry, heal him (except for the scar) if the explosion hurt him and showing Hagrid where to find him.
I loved what you wrote about Hercules' labors! Will you believe me if I tell you that hercules's labors are also alchemical symbols? They symbolize the preparation of the philosophical salt. It is a long and difficult work not only to prepare it but also to measure out the right quantity you need for the work. When Hercules's labors are finished, all the alchemist has to do is to keep the fire burning the right way. Hence the Cinderella (Cendrillon) reference we were talking about: Cinderella means "the woman that always stands by the hearth".
Sorry for the length but there were so many great ideas! I almost forgot: Hollywand, great connections with Jo's site symbols: you're right, we should think a little bit more to Peeves...
Thanks for all your wishes BTW! I'm a little better today. Which reminds me it is time for my potion... Do you think I can add some fire whisky in the pepper-up potion?
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 10:58 am (#709 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, I am glad you are feeling better, and I hope our little game here has brought you some respite from the cold's grip.
Your connections to the alchemical process are wonderful. Since you began the discussion of the cat imagery here, and we have been looking for associations, I would like to shop this theory around, even though it may require full body armour afterward! ;-)
Archangel's wonderful passage set me to pondering the associations the Ancient Egyptians had with lions. I loved the passage about the cat-s eye keeping the ray of light, protecting the spiritual traveller from being swallowed by the snake. It set me to thinking that in Egypt, the lion also represented the destructive power of nature, embodied in Sekmet, the woman with the lion's head. Could there be a parallel with this mythical figure in the Potter series?
There have been many references to Ginny as cat-like. She was taken below by the dark lord, and possessed. She seems to undergo a marked personality change, and becomes much more aggressive.
Just wondering, hold your fire, if she may take a few more turns toward the Slytherin side of the equation.
From early on, I have wondered if perhaps she will eventually be paired with Draco, as this would transform his character, and make for a real change in the Slytherin nature: two pure blooded wizards, with compassion affixed also. This pairing would embody the dragon, the lion and the snake in another guise.
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Solitaire - Nov 17, 2004 11:10 am (#710 of 1121)
I don't understand how Voldemort could have been vaporized if Fawkes swallowed the AK. Fawkes swallowed the curse in the DoM, and Voldemort wasn't vaporized.
Isn't the scar how Voldemort "marked" Harry? Would Harry be getting Voldemort's thoughts and experiences if he were not connected via the scar?
As for the house being in ruins ... if a battle took place there, it stands to reason there would be destruction. Consider the shape the Ministry was in following the battle, and I'm sure it was a lot stronger than a mere house. Unless Voldemort just walked in and AK'd everyone before they knew what hit 'em, can't we assume there was some attempt at defense by James and Lily? If so, then surely things would have been destroyed in the process.
A few posts back, someone mentioned a snake with more than one head. A Hydra? Every time one head was chopped off, two more grew back in its place. Hercules finally had to burn the stumps to prevent this. Could this be connected to the fire in the alchemy process?
Another snake ... The Medusa (the Gorgon with snakes for hair) turned people to stone when they looked at her (like the basilisk). I found an interesting site with info about Perseus and the Medusa that reminded me of some of Harry's battles. The following section jumped out at me:
Perseus plays a role in the myth of Medusa that all Greeks may have fantasized about. He actually confronted and defeated death! The meaning of the four articles needed for this task were crucial to his success. First, the harpe, or scythe (GG's sword?), needed to be large and sharp enough to kill in one slice to prevent awakening the victim and falling into her trap. Second the sandals of Hermes are needed to fly Perseus swiftly beyond the realm of this world to where the Gorgons dwell. These sandals are also a crucial item in Perseus' retreat. Thirdly, the cap of Hades is needed to enclose Perseus in darkness so the Gorgons will not be able to see him coming or leaving (Harry's invisibility cloak?). The fourth item is a kibisis, or bag, needed to hold Medusa's head. This is essential to protect Perseus and others from the still potent eyes (the basilisk's eyes? Lily's eyes?) of Medusa. The fact that Perseus succeeds in his quest catapults him into being the conqueror of death, signifying that death has no hold over him. This is backed further by the wearing of the cap of Hades, lord over the dead. To wear this cap is to become like the dead, able to see the world but yet remain unseen.
I wondered if the cap could be connected to the Sorting Hat. I can't think of a connection to Hermes' sandals ...
If this doesn't belong here--and if you feel it makes no sense--feel free to delete it! My feelings won't be hurt.
Solitaire
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 11:41 am (#711 of 1121)
Solitaire, the text to me seems open to interpretation. "Marking" could be interpreted as several different actions, not just the scar. If the scar were a gift from Fawkes, it would certainly change the meaning of the scar significantly. The books rely on ambiguities for unmined meanings. Fawkes appears a number of times in the confrontation between the two wizards. When Fawkes swallows the AK and explodes, Voldemort does become a nothingness and leaps into Harry's mind. That seems a sort of shape changing on Voldemort's behalf brought on by the phoenix.
The connection and rebound brought about by the equivalent oppositional energy of the two wizards could be especially powerful and destructive, and destroy the house. Architectural destruction, as we have discussed earlier, seems to be used as a metaphor for a rite of passage.
Voldemort survives as vapor, perhaps, because his core wand is also connected to Fawkes.
Until the final book arrives and the final page is turned, many of the words in the Potter text are as fluid as quicksilver, as ambiguous as the messages of Hermes. Even after that, we will probably still have a host of questions to ponder. In my opinion, have very limited interpretations of the text, and can dissuade others' expressing differing perspectives.
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Solitaire - Nov 17, 2004 12:25 pm (#712 of 1121)
Assuming that is actually what happened, I suppose my question about Fawkes/Voldemort would be this: Why didn't the same thing happen with Voldemort when he attempted to curse Dumbledore in the DoM and Fawkes swallowed the curse? Is it due to the fact that Voldemort's substance has become something different than it was when he attempted to AK Harry? If Voldemort became a "nothingness" the first time, why not the second time?
If Voldemort is now mortal, it would seem like the curse should be MORE apt to kill him than when he was immortal. Just questions ... and I agree that we will probably have to wait to really know what happened.
Solitaire
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Elanor - Nov 17, 2004 1:09 pm (#713 of 1121)
About Fawkes, honestly, I don't know what to think. It seems to me that though both Harry's and Voldemort's hand have one of his feathers, he has chosen his side for a long time now. I think that if he could have helped Harry as a baby he would certainly have done it, but there are a lot of ways of helping someone. He was not necessarily the one who stopped the curse. If he just saw what happened and came telling it to DD, allowing him to send Hagrid there at once, he certainly saved Harry too, before DE found him first for example.
About Ginny cat-like attitude, there is certainly something here! I think that what we have found about the cat symbol can apply to her too. The cat shows the alchemist the right path he has to follow, right? Well, at least twice, if the trio had asked her properly, she would have send them in the right direction: during CoS of course but also in OotP: if Harry had asked her when he thought he was possessed he would have spared himself a lot of pain! When they finally talked about it, she indeed told them it wasn't the path to follow. Could you think to other times she should have show the direction to follow? BTW, Hollywand, what you wrote about Egypt was great!
Ginny and Draco? Mmm, why not? She seems to have curious tastes about boys indeed (Harry excepted) but I think he would have to change a lot before it happens... Here we say "mettre de l'eau dans son vin" (to put some water in your wine), curious when we think that we said that Ginny's name could be connected with vinegar, isn't it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 17, 2004 4:07 pm (#714 of 1121)
Solitaire, I am inclined to agree with your observations. Fawkes absorbed the blast of the AK directed by Voldemort at Dumbledore. As such the effect of the spell was in all probability altered in some fashion as Fawkes is as close to an immortal being as is possible. If Fawkes swallowed the AK directed at Harry it seemsunlikely that the resulting chain reactions would have destroyed the house.
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Hollywand - Nov 17, 2004 5:31 pm (#715 of 1121)
Sorry, guys, but I enjoy dreaming about expanding possibilities rather than pinning down the logic of magic, which seems an oxymoron to me. So, pardon if I move on to a different consideration. I'm just not that interested in predicting how magic works, relationship speculation or lengthy psychological analysis of the characters. Book six will hopefully provide more explanation.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 17, 2004 9:31 pm (#716 of 1121)
Hollywand, the points that have been outlined above are necessary to adequately understand the even the simpliest alchemical processes. Because, the ability to evolve(transmutate) is dependent upon the complex interrelationships that exist between characters and the psycholgical make up of individuals such as Sirius and Severus are the keys to understanding why the will never reach the silver, platinum, or gold stages of development. As such speculations as they relate to relationships enable us to judge with more precision where each character is in their development.
Now onto another aspect of the books. As they relate to the triad of knights who were successful in the Grail Quest. Of these I believe that an analogy can be drawn between Percival as the Keeper of the Word and Neville as evidenced by their natures. There also seems to be a parallel between Sir. Galahad as the original Guardian of the Grail and the occupier of the Siege Perilous, and Harry as the one marked to defeat Voldemort.
If this is the case with what figure can a parallel be drawn with Sir. Bors?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 4:07 am (#717 of 1121)
Sir Bors
"He became a great warrior, wielding Duke Galeholt's sword and easily recognized by a distinctive scar on his forehead."
Also, Sir Bors was only one who survived the Quest for the Holy Grail and returned to court.
Couldn't Harry be the three knights rolled into one?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 6:00 am (#718 of 1121)
I checked on who Galeholt is and he turns out to be Lancelot's closest companion. Here's the link to reference material I found in the 'Net.
I read about Percival and also noticed the similarities that Nathan mentioned in his post between him and Neville.
For one, although Percival possessed natural skills in jousting and swordsmanship, he was ignorant of how to conduct himself before the court and the likes. This is the reason why the other knights first thought that he was a fool and rather unbecoming of a knight. The reason for this ignorance was his mother. She kept him ignorant about such things (knights and duties, etc) because she was tired of losing the men in her life to wars.
This is exactly what Granny is doing to Neville. She keeps on putting him down, saying the boy is not as talented as his father, etc., and Neville has subscribed to this thought. (Who wouldn't?! Esp. if you've been hearing it all your life!) However, we were very suprised with his development in OoP when he finally got the guidance and the encouragement from Harry and his peers. Even his teachers (McG, I think) didn't consider him as having a bad/poor mind and that he just lacked the confidence. I think Granny might be using this tactic in order to dissuade her grandson from possibly taking on a dangerous role/job in the wizarding world based on what happened to Frank.
Also, Percival was considered as the "original" Grail knight but was later eclipsed by Galahad in the other Grail tales, and so it became common knowledge that when one speaks of the Holy Grail, the first knight that comes to mind is Galahad.
Hmmm, could it be that Neville was the one really being alluded to in the prophecy but was "spared" of that when Voldemort sought out a half-blood kid named Harry?
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Archangel - Nov 18, 2004 6:53 am (#719 of 1121)
Drat! The edit session keeps expiring on me. I apologize for my multiple posts in advance.
Another central Grail character, I think, is the Fisher King. Some Grail tales say that the Fisher King is the same as the Maimed King but in also those tales, they say that the King was severely wounded in his thighs. IMHO, they're one and the same, however feel free to disagree.
Some tales say it was Percival who healed the King, while others say it was Galahad. Anywho, the one who heals him inherits the Grail and lance, as well as his land. This made me think about the character that JKR described in her website. She described him with someone who walks with a limp and quite old but someone who carries himself with grace. Also interesting is that one of the titles in HBP is Spinners End. I made a random search for how the word spinner is used and came up with this interesting entry -- "A fishing lure that rotates rapidly". The Fisher King became known as such because in one particular tale, when he got injured he just busied himself fishing while waiting for the knight who'll heal him.
I'm not sure how this will all play out (esp. since HBP's not out yet) and how we could connect it with other symbolisms but I thought I'd share this with you.
BTW, thanks Nathan for making this connection between character tranformation and the story of the Grail!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 18, 2004 10:25 am (#720 of 1121)
Archangel, the postulation that Harry is all three knights combined into one character is a most fascinating allusion. That is one I will have to ponder on.
The healing aspect of the story of the Grail as it relates to Fisher King has been discussed previously but with the following description:
He looked rather like an old lion. there were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he has keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire -rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp.
that J.K. Rowling gave of a new character in July tend to give more credence to the idea.
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Elanor - Nov 18, 2004 12:27 pm (#721 of 1121)
The cauldron is bubbling again I see! Great!
What is very interesting is that the symbolism of the Grail comes close to the Philosopher's stone symbolism because the quest of the Grail symbolizes every research of personal spiritual progress.
The grail is bound to the colour red and the symbolism of the blood, as is the Stone and, like the stone, it remains invisible for who does not deserve to approach it.
I like the idea of Harry being the 3 knights combined into one character: here again we find a triad: 3 = 1!
Now, speaking of the Arthurian cycle, one of the medieval authors of that cycle was Chrétien de Troyes (Christian of Troyes maybe in English?) and one of his "novels" is called "Yvain ou le Chevalier au lion" (Yvain or the Knight with the lion). There are two interesting things about Yvain:
1 - he fought and defeated a snake thanks to a lion. The lion, after this fight, becomes Yvain's true friend...
2 - this image of Yvain's lion fighting a snake was used by alchemists, symbolizing the fight of Sulphur and Mercury!
Well, if we see Harry as Yvain, the knight, he will befriend the lion-like new character who will help him to vanquish the Voldemort/snake!
What do you think about it?
BTW: I'm sorry, my dictionary doesn't give me Yvain's name in English, MrsRobert and Collins should definitely sort out their priorities... May I ask you what's his English name?
PS: this is a saying alchemists used and that I found very appropriate for us:
"Ora lege lege lege relege laborata et invenies" : "Pray, read, read, read and reread, work and you will find"
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Julie Aronson - Nov 18, 2004 5:47 pm (#722 of 1121)
Continuing the Arthurian theme...
Sir Gawaine is often reported to have magically fluctuating strength. It increases as the sun rises and fades as the sun sets. Since we are talking about so much other waxing and waning, this info seems to fit here.
I actually see Ron as a Gawaine-type character. He has the same coloring and rather mercurial nature. They are also both from huge families where, again depending on which story you read, either only the mother, or both parents, are magical. However, I have never heard of Gawaine having a sister--just LOTS of brothers. With a bit of thought (since I just now got the idea) I could probably match them up. HMMMMmmm maybe Percy and Agravaine--they both made some very stupid decisions in attempts at gaining power...
Gawaine was essentially on the side of good, but lacked the self-control and discipline to gain the Grail (not to mention his rather extensive impurity, but to keep it G-rated I'll just leave that alone!)
Elanor,
I have some Christien de Troyes, so I'll try to look up Yvaine and see what I can get from it.
Julie
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 18, 2004 8:39 pm (#723 of 1121)
Julie, Gawaine like Ron also had also had 5 brothers namely Gaheris, Gareth, Agravain, Modred, and Tor.
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zelmia - Nov 18, 2004 9:04 pm (#724 of 1121)
Here's a short bio for those who, like me, are not familiar with this character. YVAIN BLURB
One thing that did stand out to me was "A maidservant, Lunete, gave him a ring of invisibility which enabled him to escape" Of course I though immediately of Messieurs Baggins and Co. Another line was this: " On the way home, he rescued a lion from combat with a serpent". It reminds me of a couple of things. Androcles and the Lion and also one of the emblems I've seen. Maybe Maier?
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Julie Aronson - Nov 19, 2004 3:18 am (#725 of 1121)
NZ:
Sometimes Mordred is a cousin, not a brother--it depends on whether Morgause and Morgan le Fay are sisters, or aunt and niece, or related at all. King Lot of Lothian is his father, though, in every version I've read.
One thing you can count on in the Arthurian legend is inconsistency!
Julie
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 726 to 750)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:03 am
Joelle - Nov 19, 2004 9:57 am (#726 of 1121)
I believe Yvain would be Perceval. In my copy of the Holy Grail Perceval defeats a woman riding on a snake with the help of a woman riding on a lion. He also saves a lion from a snake and thus the lion follows him around and becomes his companion. Is this who you are thinking about?
-Joelle
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Elanor - Nov 19, 2004 12:58 pm (#727 of 1121)
Thanks for searching for Yvain everybody! Joelle, if you click on Zelmia's link it will give you all the details of Yvain's life, the knight of the Lion. Before coming on the thread, I've searched a little and found that he was also called Ywain or Yvain the Brave in English from time to time.
The story of the ring of invisibility indeed reminds me of the One Ring and, in a way, of Harry's cloak which often enabled him to escape too.
BTW, I have found more details about the story of Yvain and alchemy. So, when Yvain left Laudine (Dame de Noroison in French: a pun for "de nos raisons" = "Lady of our reasons"), he went into a deep forest and then he heard a cry of pain. He saw a lion held back by a snake spitting out flames which was trying to burn the lion. Yvain fought the snake but had to injure a little the lion for freeing him. He feared then that the lion would hurt him but the lion kneeled before him and never left him from that time.
This image symbolizes the fight between sulphur and mercury and the extraction of what is pure in the materia prima (the sulphur trapped into the materia prima). In fact, it symbolizes the beginning of the work.
After that part of the story, one thing is particularly interesting: the Lion helped Yvain to defeat a giant called Harpin: he attacked him which allowed Yvain to kill the Giant. Could it be a clue for the role some giants will play in the next books?
Now that I think about it, Yvain could refer to DD, the Lion would be the new lion-like character of the HBP and Voldemort would be the snake: once, DD saved the Lion from Voldemort's clutches but the Lion was hurt in the process (he limps) and now he will help the one who saved him in the past during the present war, possibly against the giants.
From this fight, this Lion character would have started his own spiritual journey: he has finished his "nigredo" process when the HBP begins, that is to say he is ready to fight again. I know this is pure speculation, but I don't know why, I almost think it makes sense. What do you think about it?
PS: it would be funny if this character's name would be something like Leo or Leonidas, don't you think so?
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Archangel - Nov 20, 2004 3:22 am (#728 of 1121)
A thought just occured to me that perhaps Hogwarts, as we know it, should undergo some sort of transmutation as well in order to facilitate better magical relations. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Hogwarts teaching/education/what-have-you is as much to blame for the divide in the magical world as Voldemort and his minions.
I mean, where did the pure blood mania first started? What did the other founders do when Slytherin first raised this idea? The divide happened so early in Hogwarts' history and it was never really dealt with properly and that's the reason why it has existed this long.
Young witches and wizards are sorted into different houses and are basically forced to compete with each other for various awards. These wizards practically have an idea to which house they feel they should belong and if they're not sorted there, I'm sure they feel that they've already failed when they've never even started. So there could be some resentment towards the house they weren't sorted in as a result. Also, being sorted into a house sort of immediately attaches a label to the wizard. Ravenclaws are always thought of by other houses as the "intelligent" bunch. Slytherin, the "bad" house and Gryffindor, the good house... Some of these labels might be true and deserved but it sort of creates tension and division again since it limits a wizard's view when it comes to dealing with each other.
I guess my point is the discussion of change shouldn't be limited to a particular character but can also extend/apply to a magical institution like Hogwarts. We've made allusions in this thread that the four houses could stand for the 4 elements in alchemy or the 4 chambers of the heart. The 4 elements tend to cancel or consume each other if not handled properly and if one of the 4 chambers fail, a person usually suffers a heart attack, right?
Well, Hogwarts is the heart of the wizarding world. The heart supplies other body organs the necessary nutrients to function through the blood. It acts as a pump and a filter for blood -- distributing the "good" blood to the organs and then filtering/transforming the "bad/used" blood to turn them into something useful. Isn't that basically what Hogwarts is in the community?
It's not performing the "changing" part well enough because the ideological divide seems to be widening and I think this stems from the unresolved problem/tension among its houses. Wizards who graduate from Hogwarts will carry with them the labels attached to their houses. They can be prejudiced about something or someone simply because he/she belonged to the "wrong" house.
Hogwarts will fall if the houses do not unite. IMO, if Hogwarts falls, the wizarding community will panic and despair more because in some ways, they hold it in higher regard than the Ministry.
Sorry, if this is totally not in sync with the current discussion but I thought that this is one aspect of the series that we might not looking into in terms of discussing change, etc., and I apologize if some of it doesn't make sense...haha
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Elanor - Nov 20, 2004 9:08 am (#729 of 1121)
Great thoughts Archangel! From the balance of Hogwarts depends the balance of the wizarding world. I think that this balance has been broken when Salazar Slytherin left the 3 other founders and that it is since that time that his house has been connected to dark wizards and known as a "bad" house. At the beginning, this house was not worse nor better than the others. Hence the Sorting Hat song asking the students to unit or fall together, hence Harry's fate. If he succeeds in uniting the houses in the war to come, Hogwarts will be "balanced" again and, from that, the wizarding world too.
In such circumstances, the defeat of Voldemort will not mean that there are no difference between wizards anymore, there will always be the ones who will think to them first and the ones who will think to the others first, but that will mean that the wizarding community is able to go beyond those differences and unit when their entire world is in danger.
The better example of that is certainly Snape, in my opinion. He is a Slytherin but is able to understand that there are things more important than just himself and is ready to play his dangerous role in that war. He is able to put his slytherin's qualities in the service of DD's cause. In a way, it is possible that the "union" of the houses has to start with some improvement in the relation between Harry and Snape: it will only happen if those two manage to work together and trust each other. They don't need to like each other for that. They just have to recognize that they need each other and accept to put aside their mutual dislike for a better cause: the fate of the Wizarding world.
4 elements, 4 humours, 4 houses, but one Hogwarts, one Wizarding world, one Earth. The bound between the macrocosm and the microcosm. You're right, the final key is here: to find the forgotten balance of that universe.
BTW, Zelmia: I'm still searching about Androcles and Maier, I'm sure I have seen something about it in my books. I had too much work to do today and I couldn't do all the researches I wanted to do but I will search again tomorrow!
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Archangel - Nov 20, 2004 9:54 am (#730 of 1121)
Yes, that's correct Elanor. I'm glad my post made sense somehow. Good job too for connecting it with Snape and Harry's relationship.
"They don't need to like each other for that. They just have to recognize that they need each other and accept to put aside their mutual dislike for a better cause: the fate of the Wizarding world."
In Ecology, there's a term called "symbiotic relationship". It's basically saying that no organism in this planet is ever by itself and that it'll eventually have to interact with another organism. The kind and level of interaction would differ resulting in either gains or losses for both organisms. Here are the different types of symbiotic relationships.
Mutualism -- both species benefit (Wizards and Muggles, in theory)
Commensalism -- one species benefit, the other is unaffected (Wizards and Goblins???)
Parasitism -- one species benefit, the other is harmed but not killed (Wizards and House elves)
Neutralism -- neither species benefits or is harmed (Centaurs and Wizards)
Competition -- neither species benefits (4 houses of Hogwarts)
Predation -- one species benefit, the other is killed (Pure blood vs half blood/muggles; Dementors and Wizards (if Dementor's Kiss is performed))
I guess, Harry and Snape are actually competing for the same thing -- acceptance from each other. Harry should acknowledge Snape's skills and try to learn from him because he's certainly one of Hogwarts' finest instructors. Snape should learn to see Harry as Harry and not Harry as James' second coming to Hogwarts.
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Julie Aronson - Nov 20, 2004 1:38 pm (#731 of 1121)
Wouldn't Harry and Voldemort fit under Predation as well?
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Elanor - Nov 21, 2004 11:53 am (#732 of 1121)
Archangel, that is interesting and I agree about Harry and Snape. The ecology theory you mention seems very close to me to the one connecting microcosm and macrocosm the alchemists used to believe in.
BTW, talking about Snape, I have found another detail interesting. We have already connected him with the Black Crow symbol, one of the symbol of the nigredo process. There is more about that symbol. Latins called the crow "phoebius ales", that is to say the bird of Apollon or the bird of the sun. The sun represents the gold prepared for the work. It means that the black materia prima which seems deprived is in fact very fertile. If our supposition is correct, then that would mean that we have not seen the best in Snape till now but that that "best" indeed exists.
Now, all the solar symbols we already encountered are bound to Harry and are key elements on his path: the gold and red colours of his house, the sword, his glasses... If Snape is indeed connected to a solar symbol too, that reinforce the idea that Harry and Snape will have no choice but to collaborate in the future. I can't wait to read it! Accio HBP!
BTW, Zelmia, I have not found yet but I don't give up about Androclès. But one thing is certain, it was Maier who wrote about him because he was the one who associated alchemy and mythology the more often.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 22, 2004 7:37 am (#733 of 1121)
Archangel, I also agree about Harry and Snape. I think Snape is going to turn out to be a much more central character than he is now. It was hinted that he tried to warn James that one of his friends was a traitor, but that James wouldn't listen (he was "too arrogant to believe that he could have been mistaken" in his choice of friends). It seems likely to me that Harry is going to be put into the same position, as if to redeem his father's arrogance. But I suspect that this mutual respect between Snape and Harry won't come until book 7; there's still too much story to go.
Elanor, that's neat about the crow! I would never have thought of it as being connected to the sun!
Phoenix Song and I have been looking into fruit in the books, which seems to symbolize both knowledge and danger or death, and we realized that it is probably connected to the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was said to have brought death into the world. There must be a connection between the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would give immortality, and alchemy! Elanor, any information on this?
I'm thinking that this symbolizes what Voldemort seeks -- he has taken the knowledge of Good and Evil, and now he wants immortality. But mustn't one "die" spiritually and be reborn to have the fruit of the Tree of Life? He doesn't want to do this; he wants to "steal" it.
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Hollywand - Nov 22, 2004 9:07 am (#734 of 1121)
Ok Elanor, Howzabouthis for an alchemical clue that has been staring us in the face for the last two weeks:
The door on the site stayed open for fourteen days, a doubled seven:
She gave us a clue that was a triad of titles as a single unit.
She has been speaking of the last two books "as a single unit" and so we are given:
Chapter 2 title of book one/of two--the two that are one. Spinners end spin or send---the snake/dragon draco constellation spins upsidedown in the sky and bites its tail. Minerva flings Draco into the sky. Hmmm. Cheating at Quidditch again, Draconian boy? Spinners end---the story draws to its conclusion. The flowing.
Chapter Six, book Six: This is the Nigredo, the lowest of the low, the Nadir of the entire series. Draco's Detour, the Snake/Dragon bites its tail. The burning/Hand of Glory.
Felix Felicis: the doubled Seven: Chapter Fourteen. A union of sevens, completeness, wholeness, unity. The cat that attains gold. The spirit and matter achieve wholeness. The Philosopher's Stone.
The Mercury(spinner)the sulphur(felix)the salt(draco)?
NoJo is talking to us. We better look for some clues about Draco and dragon references. Wand at the ready!
Two/two chapter is four/ rubedo Six of Six is nigredo Two of seven is albedo
You can write to me care of the Janus ward #49, St Mungo's. or, perhaps with the spiders, under the stairs at 4 Privet
E----I saw mentioned that astrologically the Privet plant is symbolized by the moon/silver. How does she do this?????
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Elanor - Nov 22, 2004 12:14 pm (#735 of 1121)
Wow, Holllywand, THAT is thinking I'd say... You're so true, we didn't pay enough attention to numerology yet, we barely touched lightly on it though alchemists used it a lot. After reading your post, I had the idea of checking how many chapters there are in GoF: 37! 3+7=10, that is to say the ouroboros symbol again! The story begins with the fall of Voldemort and, at the end of GoF, Voldemort is reborn. It is the end of a circle and, at the same time, maybe the beginning of the "biting his own tail" process for Voldemort since his true downfall will maybe come from the fact he took Harry's blood then. And what is the name of that 37th chapter? "The beginning"... I can't believe how blind we are sometimes! This was right under our noses too!
Now that I think about it, the 7th book's number of chapters added will certainly lead to the number 10 too and I would not be surprised if the addition of the numbers of chapters of all the books will also be 10 or, and that is the same thing, 1.
Hollywand, you're right: she is giving us far more than just some titles here. In fact, I would even say that the Lady is playing with us all. I love that! I do agree that we'd better search for more references about the dragon, beginning with the "twelve uses of dragon's blood" discovered by our DD and mentioned in the same sentence telling us he worked on alchemy on the Chocolate frog card. Thanks a lot for the nudge in that direction Captain, this certainly gives food for thoughts... I have found more about numbers in alchemy, I will try and summarize it for tomorrow!
About the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge, there are indeed alchemical references beginning with the symbol of his roots which found their food in earth... If the symbol is just a tree, then it represents the hidden and secret fire. In it lies the green lion, the powerful vitriol. I can't help but think to the Forbidden Forrest and all the secrets hidden inside it here. And the Whomping Willow was indeed created for keeping a secret, isn't it?
Symbolically, the alchemical quest is also the quest of the Tree of Life. It is said that this tree produces fruits 12 times. In fact, the Tree of Life symbolizes the Elixir of Life. Flamel said that the fruits of this tree were used for feeding and his leaves for healing. Does it help you? What fruits were you thinking of in the books?
Thank you so much for all those connections! I just love that thread!
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Elanor - Nov 22, 2004 2:36 pm (#736 of 1121)
I just remembered I had forgotten to tell you about a funny detail I found. The Great Work was also called "l'oeuvre du phénix", = the work of the phoenix, and I couldn't help but notice the alliteration between "oeuvre du phoenix" and "order of the phoenix". Curious, isn't it?
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Hollywand - Nov 22, 2004 2:48 pm (#737 of 1121)
Thanks that is wonderful, Elanor, I agree. It seems that alchemical language offers a major key to the series, and your additions reveal connections I would never have been aware of without your contributions. Thanks.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 23, 2004 6:00 am (#738 of 1121)
Thank you, Elanor. It's all kinds of fruit; we're only beginning to realize how prevalent the fruit references are. Ironically, the only kind of fruit JKR has (one would say carefully) avoided mentioning is apples. :-D However, in the PoA movie you will notice that both Lupin and Draco were eating apples before scenes of mortal danger, and Macnair was sitting under a pear tree, sharpening his axe.
Phoenix Song just pointed out in our private correspondence that not only was the Stone in Vault 713, but Sirius was locked up Flitwick's office on the 7th floor, 13th window. And she noticed that Harry's birthday is 31-7 in British notation, that is 713 backwards.
I also noticed that "3 to the left" has some connection to taking one's place in the Wizarding World. Harry's winning move in checkmating the King in the Giant Chess Game was moving 3 spaces diagonally to the left. One also enters Diagon Alley by tapping the 3rd brick on the left. There might be other "3 to the left" references I haven't noticed yet. Anybody have a clue what "3 to the left" might mean? Could this be a reference to the "3 Founders that were left"? Or I know you've mentioned the mercury, sulphur, and salt...
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Elanor - Nov 23, 2004 12:42 pm (#739 of 1121)
That is interesting RPS... It reminds me of what I read about Magic Squares (carrés magiques). You can find these squares in each an every civilization. The number of little squares in each magic square change but the principle is the same: if you add the numbers written in each little square, vertically or horizontally, you always find the same result. The simpler one is called "the seal of Saturn", made with the 9 first numbers. I can't draw you the squares but you can see the numbers in it like that:
| 4 | 9 | 2 |
| 3 | 5 | 7 |
| 8 | 1 | 6 |
Here, you always find 15 if you add the numbers of each row. But what I find really interesting is to see the 317 numbers appear like that.
In fact, each of the 7 planets known in the Antiquity, and always connected with the alchemy work, has his own Magic Square: Saturn, as we saw, has a square with 3 x 3 squares, Jupiter a 4 x 4 squares one (with the first 16 numbers), Mars a 5 x 5 squares one, till the Moon which has a 9 x 9 squares one. I never saw those last ones actually but I will search what I can find about them.
These squares meant two things for those who built them: first there is more than just arithmetical quantities in numbers, they have their own meaning, and, second, the square in itself represent the number 4 which represents stability, the organization of the matter and of the earth.
About the fruits in PoA, unfortunately I saw it only once and I hoped that I would get the DVD today since it was sent to me from England last Thursday, but alas earwax... Do you also say "to twist the knife in the wound"? LOL! I hope I will get it tomorrow...
PS: thanks Hollywand, but I would have never had the idea of searching for it if you didn't hint me in that direction. There is nothing better that working as a team as we all do here!
Edit: sorry for the edits, I'm just trying to make that square looks like a square...
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 23, 2004 5:54 pm (#740 of 1121)
Thank you, Elanor! That's very intriguing! I wonder...would there by any chance happen to be one that would allow a bishop to checkmate a 6 by moving diagonally to a 3 to the left? (Sorry, I'm going to go visit Hollywand at St. Mungo's now...)
There weren't too many fruits in the movie, just two apples, the pear tree, and the bunch of grapes in the Fat Lady's picture. But lest I twist the knife anymore... :-D
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Hollywand - Nov 23, 2004 8:19 pm (#741 of 1121)
I'm sorry to inflict this tidbit on all of you, but have to spill the Bertie Bott's......alas, earwax:
I was bugged that the Wizard of the Month for November had curious alliteration: Devil in White Horn.
Bugsme.
Now, tonight, the date on the wizard calendar is : 02/07/40
Why tonight, a doubled seven, a four, that adds to eleven? Why tonight?
The vagaries of electronics? A clue?
Weird.
All the Best,
The Giant Squib
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zelmia - Nov 23, 2004 10:54 pm (#742 of 1121)
Hollywand, I don't understand what you mean about the date. When I looked, it said 23/11/04 = 5/2/4 = 11 = 2. Does this mean anything?
Devil in White Horn. Hm. All that reminds me of is "Rosemary's Baby". Or possibly "The Tenant".
Something else about crows that I wanted to mention is that the Norse god Odin was accompanied by two ravens (or crows) on his journey to obtain the Rune Stones, among other things. There is much more to it than that, of course. But I mention it because of the close association with Alchemy and Tarot - of which Odin is said to be "the Hanged Man".
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 24, 2004 3:35 am (#743 of 1121)
Um...if anyone is interested, "white horn" in JKR's symbolic language would mean "death spell".
Not a very nice name...
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2004 7:15 am (#744 of 1121)
Where do you get that, RPS?
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 7:20 am (#745 of 1121)
Well, the numeric sequence for Devlin Whitehorn is gone this morning, so it must have been a glitch on the site. The listed was 02/07/40; eleven, nine or thirteen could be extracted, depending on how the numbers were treated. It was the date listed right on the Wizarding Calendar, which usually matches the current date.
Thanks for the contributions Zelmia and RPS. Devlin Whitehorn--I associated with unicorns, since they seem to be the only animal with a single white horn in the book.
The color code translation is interesting. Death Spell, yikes.
Zelima, I found the character of Odin you mentioned earlier in this thread really interesting. "The Hanged Man" was the name of the local bar is Little Hangleton, where the Riddle Family died. And Greater Hangleton is also mentioned. This image used in three different guises in describing Riddle's location. Interesting.
Elanor's remarks about the Tree of Life, which is a prevalent image in alchemy lead me to wonder: If we have the Yew (death) tree in the graveyard where Voldemort was reincarnated, and the Whomping Willow, will Harry have an encounter with the Holly tree? Would it be a tree with special properties, like and androgyne? Is it in the Forbidden Forest? Godric's Hollow?
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Elanor - Nov 24, 2004 8:46 am (#746 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone! The "bug" you saw on Jo's site is really curious indeed Hollywand! Could it be a veiled reference to the day of release of the HBP? If we see it as a numerical anagram it may mean: 24 - 07 for 24th of july, or 27 - 04 for 27th of april. Ok, I'm just dreaming here! Anyway, another number can be extracted from that: 4 (13 lead to 1+3=4) and 4 is a very interesting number...
The Wizards anagram is interesting too...
About the trees, I have found that both Yew and Holly are connected to Saturn in alchemy, curious isn't it?
Saturn is the planet of melancholy. In symbolism, it is bound to the ideas of old men, fathers, orphans, heirs, deep researches and perfect memory, prison, long loneliness... Curious isn't it? Both Harry's and Voldemort's wands connected to those symbols, I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this! In alchemy, Saturn refer to the nigredo process one has to go through.
Which leads me to Magic Squares again! I was searching about them when I found something about an engraving of Dürer called "melancolia" (melancholy) which has a LOT of alchemical references in it, and particularly a Magic Square, the Jupiter Magic Square (16 squares, 4x4) with the 16th first numbers. Every row added makes 34, a reference to the meaning of the numbers 3 and 4 in alchemy. It refers also to the number 12 (3x4) with all that it means, including the Hanged Man tarot card (the 12th card), which can represent nigredo too since it symbolizes the sacrifices one has to make for reaching a higher spiritual level.
And all those symbols are connected to Harry AND voldemort through theirs wands. I never believed in coincidences in Jo's work, today even less than ever!
The article I read about Saturn and alchemy had another reference, a painting of Goya (at the Prado museum, in Madrid) called "Saturn". Hollywand, I'm sure you could tell us amazing things about that painting, couldn't you?
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 10:19 am (#747 of 1121)
Elanor, you said what I was too timid to say, that the date may be a reference to the release date of HBP in July---for Harry's birthday?
It's interesting to bring in Goya's Saturn paintings, and a very telling association. When you think of it, this brings in Dolores Umbridge, the painful shadow, and her association with the Inquisition and Spain's war torn past, to which France, Germany, Italy and England are inextricably bound. I think Americans have no concept of the tangle of wars and histories that bind the European destiny. A history Europeans are shaped by; I think of the hundreds and hundreds of years of conflict, marriages, alliances, power grabs, ideologies enforced. Sounds like a History of Histories----and European intellectual history which is a nice metaphor for the wizarding world. Right. This is why Jo is also bringing in parts of Eastern Europe in Viktor Krum and Karakoff. The text grows ever richer.
Sorry. "The Disasters of War" Goya's great war series, then Saturn Series, the black paintings, the father that devours his children. I am so moved by this series as Goya is so capable of rendering the human cost, and the cost to his own psyche as he descends into complete blackness in attempt to heal his soul from bearing witness to the wanton destruction of the war. This is surely the nigredo. Makes the thought of where book six could go really terrifying. wow.
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Elanor - Nov 24, 2004 12:57 pm (#748 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand, that is a true image of nigredo indeed and you said it so well.
Saturn is the symbol of a power of destruction, the old man, image of sterility. But it can also refer to the youth of the world and to a spiritual rebirth, since, after being drove out by Jupiter, he made a long journey to the Fortunate Islands. If we apply this symbol to both Harry and Voldemort then Voldemort is the old man, the destruction and Harry his opposite, the youth of the world, the light, the hope.
Then the old man and the child are a pair of opposites leading to a conjunction and a new youth of the world. This could be a nice image of the relation between Harry and Voldemort. They are indeed a pair of opposites but they are bound and have things in common in their lives. The image of the conjunction may be the one of their final fight. Let's hope the Wizarding World may find a new youth afterwards.
Mythology and alchemy are closely bound and both really enrich our reading of the books.
BTW, about history, I see the Wizarding World's history as a part of the European history in the books. I am always amazed, when I read about the subjects the young wizards study in History of Magic class. If you replace them in the context of the real history (when we know the period) it is really great to see how they fit with that time and what happened then. I think, but it is only my opinion, that Jo has a lot of fun doing that and spend a lot of time creating a plausible wizarding history. Not only a background, but a true history. The better example of that is maybe in "Fantastic beasts" and "Quidditch through the ages", which are crammed with historical references. I do hope she will write "Hogwarts, an history" after book 7!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 24, 2004 3:58 pm (#749 of 1121)
The equation of Voldemort to Saturn (Coronus) is interesting because Im wonder if that in some fashion would make Grindelwald in some way a symbol for Uranus. The only difference being that Voldemort did not bring about the downfall of Grindlewald.
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 4:40 pm (#750 of 1121)
Just looking on the Floo network, they list some Potter history:
They figure the story begins in 1991 interesting eleven anagram
The Floo Network aslo lists that in November (11th month) Harry catches the snitch in his mouth---they list 11am---and wins the cup for Gryffindor. Interesting synchronicity....
Colin is frozen by the basilisk in November. Hmmm.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I believe Yvain would be Perceval. In my copy of the Holy Grail Perceval defeats a woman riding on a snake with the help of a woman riding on a lion. He also saves a lion from a snake and thus the lion follows him around and becomes his companion. Is this who you are thinking about?
-Joelle
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Elanor - Nov 19, 2004 12:58 pm (#727 of 1121)
Thanks for searching for Yvain everybody! Joelle, if you click on Zelmia's link it will give you all the details of Yvain's life, the knight of the Lion. Before coming on the thread, I've searched a little and found that he was also called Ywain or Yvain the Brave in English from time to time.
The story of the ring of invisibility indeed reminds me of the One Ring and, in a way, of Harry's cloak which often enabled him to escape too.
BTW, I have found more details about the story of Yvain and alchemy. So, when Yvain left Laudine (Dame de Noroison in French: a pun for "de nos raisons" = "Lady of our reasons"), he went into a deep forest and then he heard a cry of pain. He saw a lion held back by a snake spitting out flames which was trying to burn the lion. Yvain fought the snake but had to injure a little the lion for freeing him. He feared then that the lion would hurt him but the lion kneeled before him and never left him from that time.
This image symbolizes the fight between sulphur and mercury and the extraction of what is pure in the materia prima (the sulphur trapped into the materia prima). In fact, it symbolizes the beginning of the work.
After that part of the story, one thing is particularly interesting: the Lion helped Yvain to defeat a giant called Harpin: he attacked him which allowed Yvain to kill the Giant. Could it be a clue for the role some giants will play in the next books?
Now that I think about it, Yvain could refer to DD, the Lion would be the new lion-like character of the HBP and Voldemort would be the snake: once, DD saved the Lion from Voldemort's clutches but the Lion was hurt in the process (he limps) and now he will help the one who saved him in the past during the present war, possibly against the giants.
From this fight, this Lion character would have started his own spiritual journey: he has finished his "nigredo" process when the HBP begins, that is to say he is ready to fight again. I know this is pure speculation, but I don't know why, I almost think it makes sense. What do you think about it?
PS: it would be funny if this character's name would be something like Leo or Leonidas, don't you think so?
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Archangel - Nov 20, 2004 3:22 am (#728 of 1121)
A thought just occured to me that perhaps Hogwarts, as we know it, should undergo some sort of transmutation as well in order to facilitate better magical relations. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Hogwarts teaching/education/what-have-you is as much to blame for the divide in the magical world as Voldemort and his minions.
I mean, where did the pure blood mania first started? What did the other founders do when Slytherin first raised this idea? The divide happened so early in Hogwarts' history and it was never really dealt with properly and that's the reason why it has existed this long.
Young witches and wizards are sorted into different houses and are basically forced to compete with each other for various awards. These wizards practically have an idea to which house they feel they should belong and if they're not sorted there, I'm sure they feel that they've already failed when they've never even started. So there could be some resentment towards the house they weren't sorted in as a result. Also, being sorted into a house sort of immediately attaches a label to the wizard. Ravenclaws are always thought of by other houses as the "intelligent" bunch. Slytherin, the "bad" house and Gryffindor, the good house... Some of these labels might be true and deserved but it sort of creates tension and division again since it limits a wizard's view when it comes to dealing with each other.
I guess my point is the discussion of change shouldn't be limited to a particular character but can also extend/apply to a magical institution like Hogwarts. We've made allusions in this thread that the four houses could stand for the 4 elements in alchemy or the 4 chambers of the heart. The 4 elements tend to cancel or consume each other if not handled properly and if one of the 4 chambers fail, a person usually suffers a heart attack, right?
Well, Hogwarts is the heart of the wizarding world. The heart supplies other body organs the necessary nutrients to function through the blood. It acts as a pump and a filter for blood -- distributing the "good" blood to the organs and then filtering/transforming the "bad/used" blood to turn them into something useful. Isn't that basically what Hogwarts is in the community?
It's not performing the "changing" part well enough because the ideological divide seems to be widening and I think this stems from the unresolved problem/tension among its houses. Wizards who graduate from Hogwarts will carry with them the labels attached to their houses. They can be prejudiced about something or someone simply because he/she belonged to the "wrong" house.
Hogwarts will fall if the houses do not unite. IMO, if Hogwarts falls, the wizarding community will panic and despair more because in some ways, they hold it in higher regard than the Ministry.
Sorry, if this is totally not in sync with the current discussion but I thought that this is one aspect of the series that we might not looking into in terms of discussing change, etc., and I apologize if some of it doesn't make sense...haha
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Elanor - Nov 20, 2004 9:08 am (#729 of 1121)
Great thoughts Archangel! From the balance of Hogwarts depends the balance of the wizarding world. I think that this balance has been broken when Salazar Slytherin left the 3 other founders and that it is since that time that his house has been connected to dark wizards and known as a "bad" house. At the beginning, this house was not worse nor better than the others. Hence the Sorting Hat song asking the students to unit or fall together, hence Harry's fate. If he succeeds in uniting the houses in the war to come, Hogwarts will be "balanced" again and, from that, the wizarding world too.
In such circumstances, the defeat of Voldemort will not mean that there are no difference between wizards anymore, there will always be the ones who will think to them first and the ones who will think to the others first, but that will mean that the wizarding community is able to go beyond those differences and unit when their entire world is in danger.
The better example of that is certainly Snape, in my opinion. He is a Slytherin but is able to understand that there are things more important than just himself and is ready to play his dangerous role in that war. He is able to put his slytherin's qualities in the service of DD's cause. In a way, it is possible that the "union" of the houses has to start with some improvement in the relation between Harry and Snape: it will only happen if those two manage to work together and trust each other. They don't need to like each other for that. They just have to recognize that they need each other and accept to put aside their mutual dislike for a better cause: the fate of the Wizarding world.
4 elements, 4 humours, 4 houses, but one Hogwarts, one Wizarding world, one Earth. The bound between the macrocosm and the microcosm. You're right, the final key is here: to find the forgotten balance of that universe.
BTW, Zelmia: I'm still searching about Androcles and Maier, I'm sure I have seen something about it in my books. I had too much work to do today and I couldn't do all the researches I wanted to do but I will search again tomorrow!
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Archangel - Nov 20, 2004 9:54 am (#730 of 1121)
Yes, that's correct Elanor. I'm glad my post made sense somehow. Good job too for connecting it with Snape and Harry's relationship.
"They don't need to like each other for that. They just have to recognize that they need each other and accept to put aside their mutual dislike for a better cause: the fate of the Wizarding world."
In Ecology, there's a term called "symbiotic relationship". It's basically saying that no organism in this planet is ever by itself and that it'll eventually have to interact with another organism. The kind and level of interaction would differ resulting in either gains or losses for both organisms. Here are the different types of symbiotic relationships.
Mutualism -- both species benefit (Wizards and Muggles, in theory)
Commensalism -- one species benefit, the other is unaffected (Wizards and Goblins???)
Parasitism -- one species benefit, the other is harmed but not killed (Wizards and House elves)
Neutralism -- neither species benefits or is harmed (Centaurs and Wizards)
Competition -- neither species benefits (4 houses of Hogwarts)
Predation -- one species benefit, the other is killed (Pure blood vs half blood/muggles; Dementors and Wizards (if Dementor's Kiss is performed))
I guess, Harry and Snape are actually competing for the same thing -- acceptance from each other. Harry should acknowledge Snape's skills and try to learn from him because he's certainly one of Hogwarts' finest instructors. Snape should learn to see Harry as Harry and not Harry as James' second coming to Hogwarts.
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Julie Aronson - Nov 20, 2004 1:38 pm (#731 of 1121)
Wouldn't Harry and Voldemort fit under Predation as well?
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Elanor - Nov 21, 2004 11:53 am (#732 of 1121)
Archangel, that is interesting and I agree about Harry and Snape. The ecology theory you mention seems very close to me to the one connecting microcosm and macrocosm the alchemists used to believe in.
BTW, talking about Snape, I have found another detail interesting. We have already connected him with the Black Crow symbol, one of the symbol of the nigredo process. There is more about that symbol. Latins called the crow "phoebius ales", that is to say the bird of Apollon or the bird of the sun. The sun represents the gold prepared for the work. It means that the black materia prima which seems deprived is in fact very fertile. If our supposition is correct, then that would mean that we have not seen the best in Snape till now but that that "best" indeed exists.
Now, all the solar symbols we already encountered are bound to Harry and are key elements on his path: the gold and red colours of his house, the sword, his glasses... If Snape is indeed connected to a solar symbol too, that reinforce the idea that Harry and Snape will have no choice but to collaborate in the future. I can't wait to read it! Accio HBP!
BTW, Zelmia, I have not found yet but I don't give up about Androclès. But one thing is certain, it was Maier who wrote about him because he was the one who associated alchemy and mythology the more often.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 22, 2004 7:37 am (#733 of 1121)
Archangel, I also agree about Harry and Snape. I think Snape is going to turn out to be a much more central character than he is now. It was hinted that he tried to warn James that one of his friends was a traitor, but that James wouldn't listen (he was "too arrogant to believe that he could have been mistaken" in his choice of friends). It seems likely to me that Harry is going to be put into the same position, as if to redeem his father's arrogance. But I suspect that this mutual respect between Snape and Harry won't come until book 7; there's still too much story to go.
Elanor, that's neat about the crow! I would never have thought of it as being connected to the sun!
Phoenix Song and I have been looking into fruit in the books, which seems to symbolize both knowledge and danger or death, and we realized that it is probably connected to the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was said to have brought death into the world. There must be a connection between the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would give immortality, and alchemy! Elanor, any information on this?
I'm thinking that this symbolizes what Voldemort seeks -- he has taken the knowledge of Good and Evil, and now he wants immortality. But mustn't one "die" spiritually and be reborn to have the fruit of the Tree of Life? He doesn't want to do this; he wants to "steal" it.
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Hollywand - Nov 22, 2004 9:07 am (#734 of 1121)
Ok Elanor, Howzabouthis for an alchemical clue that has been staring us in the face for the last two weeks:
The door on the site stayed open for fourteen days, a doubled seven:
She gave us a clue that was a triad of titles as a single unit.
She has been speaking of the last two books "as a single unit" and so we are given:
Chapter 2 title of book one/of two--the two that are one. Spinners end spin or send---the snake/dragon draco constellation spins upsidedown in the sky and bites its tail. Minerva flings Draco into the sky. Hmmm. Cheating at Quidditch again, Draconian boy? Spinners end---the story draws to its conclusion. The flowing.
Chapter Six, book Six: This is the Nigredo, the lowest of the low, the Nadir of the entire series. Draco's Detour, the Snake/Dragon bites its tail. The burning/Hand of Glory.
Felix Felicis: the doubled Seven: Chapter Fourteen. A union of sevens, completeness, wholeness, unity. The cat that attains gold. The spirit and matter achieve wholeness. The Philosopher's Stone.
The Mercury(spinner)the sulphur(felix)the salt(draco)?
NoJo is talking to us. We better look for some clues about Draco and dragon references. Wand at the ready!
Two/two chapter is four/ rubedo Six of Six is nigredo Two of seven is albedo
You can write to me care of the Janus ward #49, St Mungo's. or, perhaps with the spiders, under the stairs at 4 Privet
E----I saw mentioned that astrologically the Privet plant is symbolized by the moon/silver. How does she do this?????
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Elanor - Nov 22, 2004 12:14 pm (#735 of 1121)
Wow, Holllywand, THAT is thinking I'd say... You're so true, we didn't pay enough attention to numerology yet, we barely touched lightly on it though alchemists used it a lot. After reading your post, I had the idea of checking how many chapters there are in GoF: 37! 3+7=10, that is to say the ouroboros symbol again! The story begins with the fall of Voldemort and, at the end of GoF, Voldemort is reborn. It is the end of a circle and, at the same time, maybe the beginning of the "biting his own tail" process for Voldemort since his true downfall will maybe come from the fact he took Harry's blood then. And what is the name of that 37th chapter? "The beginning"... I can't believe how blind we are sometimes! This was right under our noses too!
Now that I think about it, the 7th book's number of chapters added will certainly lead to the number 10 too and I would not be surprised if the addition of the numbers of chapters of all the books will also be 10 or, and that is the same thing, 1.
Hollywand, you're right: she is giving us far more than just some titles here. In fact, I would even say that the Lady is playing with us all. I love that! I do agree that we'd better search for more references about the dragon, beginning with the "twelve uses of dragon's blood" discovered by our DD and mentioned in the same sentence telling us he worked on alchemy on the Chocolate frog card. Thanks a lot for the nudge in that direction Captain, this certainly gives food for thoughts... I have found more about numbers in alchemy, I will try and summarize it for tomorrow!
About the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge, there are indeed alchemical references beginning with the symbol of his roots which found their food in earth... If the symbol is just a tree, then it represents the hidden and secret fire. In it lies the green lion, the powerful vitriol. I can't help but think to the Forbidden Forrest and all the secrets hidden inside it here. And the Whomping Willow was indeed created for keeping a secret, isn't it?
Symbolically, the alchemical quest is also the quest of the Tree of Life. It is said that this tree produces fruits 12 times. In fact, the Tree of Life symbolizes the Elixir of Life. Flamel said that the fruits of this tree were used for feeding and his leaves for healing. Does it help you? What fruits were you thinking of in the books?
Thank you so much for all those connections! I just love that thread!
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Elanor - Nov 22, 2004 2:36 pm (#736 of 1121)
I just remembered I had forgotten to tell you about a funny detail I found. The Great Work was also called "l'oeuvre du phénix", = the work of the phoenix, and I couldn't help but notice the alliteration between "oeuvre du phoenix" and "order of the phoenix". Curious, isn't it?
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Hollywand - Nov 22, 2004 2:48 pm (#737 of 1121)
Thanks that is wonderful, Elanor, I agree. It seems that alchemical language offers a major key to the series, and your additions reveal connections I would never have been aware of without your contributions. Thanks.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 23, 2004 6:00 am (#738 of 1121)
Thank you, Elanor. It's all kinds of fruit; we're only beginning to realize how prevalent the fruit references are. Ironically, the only kind of fruit JKR has (one would say carefully) avoided mentioning is apples. :-D However, in the PoA movie you will notice that both Lupin and Draco were eating apples before scenes of mortal danger, and Macnair was sitting under a pear tree, sharpening his axe.
Phoenix Song just pointed out in our private correspondence that not only was the Stone in Vault 713, but Sirius was locked up Flitwick's office on the 7th floor, 13th window. And she noticed that Harry's birthday is 31-7 in British notation, that is 713 backwards.
I also noticed that "3 to the left" has some connection to taking one's place in the Wizarding World. Harry's winning move in checkmating the King in the Giant Chess Game was moving 3 spaces diagonally to the left. One also enters Diagon Alley by tapping the 3rd brick on the left. There might be other "3 to the left" references I haven't noticed yet. Anybody have a clue what "3 to the left" might mean? Could this be a reference to the "3 Founders that were left"? Or I know you've mentioned the mercury, sulphur, and salt...
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Elanor - Nov 23, 2004 12:42 pm (#739 of 1121)
That is interesting RPS... It reminds me of what I read about Magic Squares (carrés magiques). You can find these squares in each an every civilization. The number of little squares in each magic square change but the principle is the same: if you add the numbers written in each little square, vertically or horizontally, you always find the same result. The simpler one is called "the seal of Saturn", made with the 9 first numbers. I can't draw you the squares but you can see the numbers in it like that:
| 4 | 9 | 2 |
| 3 | 5 | 7 |
| 8 | 1 | 6 |
Here, you always find 15 if you add the numbers of each row. But what I find really interesting is to see the 317 numbers appear like that.
In fact, each of the 7 planets known in the Antiquity, and always connected with the alchemy work, has his own Magic Square: Saturn, as we saw, has a square with 3 x 3 squares, Jupiter a 4 x 4 squares one (with the first 16 numbers), Mars a 5 x 5 squares one, till the Moon which has a 9 x 9 squares one. I never saw those last ones actually but I will search what I can find about them.
These squares meant two things for those who built them: first there is more than just arithmetical quantities in numbers, they have their own meaning, and, second, the square in itself represent the number 4 which represents stability, the organization of the matter and of the earth.
About the fruits in PoA, unfortunately I saw it only once and I hoped that I would get the DVD today since it was sent to me from England last Thursday, but alas earwax... Do you also say "to twist the knife in the wound"? LOL! I hope I will get it tomorrow...
PS: thanks Hollywand, but I would have never had the idea of searching for it if you didn't hint me in that direction. There is nothing better that working as a team as we all do here!
Edit: sorry for the edits, I'm just trying to make that square looks like a square...
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 23, 2004 5:54 pm (#740 of 1121)
Thank you, Elanor! That's very intriguing! I wonder...would there by any chance happen to be one that would allow a bishop to checkmate a 6 by moving diagonally to a 3 to the left? (Sorry, I'm going to go visit Hollywand at St. Mungo's now...)
There weren't too many fruits in the movie, just two apples, the pear tree, and the bunch of grapes in the Fat Lady's picture. But lest I twist the knife anymore... :-D
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Hollywand - Nov 23, 2004 8:19 pm (#741 of 1121)
I'm sorry to inflict this tidbit on all of you, but have to spill the Bertie Bott's......alas, earwax:
I was bugged that the Wizard of the Month for November had curious alliteration: Devil in White Horn.
Bugsme.
Now, tonight, the date on the wizard calendar is : 02/07/40
Why tonight, a doubled seven, a four, that adds to eleven? Why tonight?
The vagaries of electronics? A clue?
Weird.
All the Best,
The Giant Squib
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zelmia - Nov 23, 2004 10:54 pm (#742 of 1121)
Hollywand, I don't understand what you mean about the date. When I looked, it said 23/11/04 = 5/2/4 = 11 = 2. Does this mean anything?
Devil in White Horn. Hm. All that reminds me of is "Rosemary's Baby". Or possibly "The Tenant".
Something else about crows that I wanted to mention is that the Norse god Odin was accompanied by two ravens (or crows) on his journey to obtain the Rune Stones, among other things. There is much more to it than that, of course. But I mention it because of the close association with Alchemy and Tarot - of which Odin is said to be "the Hanged Man".
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 24, 2004 3:35 am (#743 of 1121)
Um...if anyone is interested, "white horn" in JKR's symbolic language would mean "death spell".
Not a very nice name...
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zelmia - Nov 24, 2004 7:15 am (#744 of 1121)
Where do you get that, RPS?
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 7:20 am (#745 of 1121)
Well, the numeric sequence for Devlin Whitehorn is gone this morning, so it must have been a glitch on the site. The listed was 02/07/40; eleven, nine or thirteen could be extracted, depending on how the numbers were treated. It was the date listed right on the Wizarding Calendar, which usually matches the current date.
Thanks for the contributions Zelmia and RPS. Devlin Whitehorn--I associated with unicorns, since they seem to be the only animal with a single white horn in the book.
The color code translation is interesting. Death Spell, yikes.
Zelima, I found the character of Odin you mentioned earlier in this thread really interesting. "The Hanged Man" was the name of the local bar is Little Hangleton, where the Riddle Family died. And Greater Hangleton is also mentioned. This image used in three different guises in describing Riddle's location. Interesting.
Elanor's remarks about the Tree of Life, which is a prevalent image in alchemy lead me to wonder: If we have the Yew (death) tree in the graveyard where Voldemort was reincarnated, and the Whomping Willow, will Harry have an encounter with the Holly tree? Would it be a tree with special properties, like and androgyne? Is it in the Forbidden Forest? Godric's Hollow?
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Elanor - Nov 24, 2004 8:46 am (#746 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone! The "bug" you saw on Jo's site is really curious indeed Hollywand! Could it be a veiled reference to the day of release of the HBP? If we see it as a numerical anagram it may mean: 24 - 07 for 24th of july, or 27 - 04 for 27th of april. Ok, I'm just dreaming here! Anyway, another number can be extracted from that: 4 (13 lead to 1+3=4) and 4 is a very interesting number...
The Wizards anagram is interesting too...
About the trees, I have found that both Yew and Holly are connected to Saturn in alchemy, curious isn't it?
Saturn is the planet of melancholy. In symbolism, it is bound to the ideas of old men, fathers, orphans, heirs, deep researches and perfect memory, prison, long loneliness... Curious isn't it? Both Harry's and Voldemort's wands connected to those symbols, I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this! In alchemy, Saturn refer to the nigredo process one has to go through.
Which leads me to Magic Squares again! I was searching about them when I found something about an engraving of Dürer called "melancolia" (melancholy) which has a LOT of alchemical references in it, and particularly a Magic Square, the Jupiter Magic Square (16 squares, 4x4) with the 16th first numbers. Every row added makes 34, a reference to the meaning of the numbers 3 and 4 in alchemy. It refers also to the number 12 (3x4) with all that it means, including the Hanged Man tarot card (the 12th card), which can represent nigredo too since it symbolizes the sacrifices one has to make for reaching a higher spiritual level.
And all those symbols are connected to Harry AND voldemort through theirs wands. I never believed in coincidences in Jo's work, today even less than ever!
The article I read about Saturn and alchemy had another reference, a painting of Goya (at the Prado museum, in Madrid) called "Saturn". Hollywand, I'm sure you could tell us amazing things about that painting, couldn't you?
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 10:19 am (#747 of 1121)
Elanor, you said what I was too timid to say, that the date may be a reference to the release date of HBP in July---for Harry's birthday?
It's interesting to bring in Goya's Saturn paintings, and a very telling association. When you think of it, this brings in Dolores Umbridge, the painful shadow, and her association with the Inquisition and Spain's war torn past, to which France, Germany, Italy and England are inextricably bound. I think Americans have no concept of the tangle of wars and histories that bind the European destiny. A history Europeans are shaped by; I think of the hundreds and hundreds of years of conflict, marriages, alliances, power grabs, ideologies enforced. Sounds like a History of Histories----and European intellectual history which is a nice metaphor for the wizarding world. Right. This is why Jo is also bringing in parts of Eastern Europe in Viktor Krum and Karakoff. The text grows ever richer.
Sorry. "The Disasters of War" Goya's great war series, then Saturn Series, the black paintings, the father that devours his children. I am so moved by this series as Goya is so capable of rendering the human cost, and the cost to his own psyche as he descends into complete blackness in attempt to heal his soul from bearing witness to the wanton destruction of the war. This is surely the nigredo. Makes the thought of where book six could go really terrifying. wow.
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Elanor - Nov 24, 2004 12:57 pm (#748 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand, that is a true image of nigredo indeed and you said it so well.
Saturn is the symbol of a power of destruction, the old man, image of sterility. But it can also refer to the youth of the world and to a spiritual rebirth, since, after being drove out by Jupiter, he made a long journey to the Fortunate Islands. If we apply this symbol to both Harry and Voldemort then Voldemort is the old man, the destruction and Harry his opposite, the youth of the world, the light, the hope.
Then the old man and the child are a pair of opposites leading to a conjunction and a new youth of the world. This could be a nice image of the relation between Harry and Voldemort. They are indeed a pair of opposites but they are bound and have things in common in their lives. The image of the conjunction may be the one of their final fight. Let's hope the Wizarding World may find a new youth afterwards.
Mythology and alchemy are closely bound and both really enrich our reading of the books.
BTW, about history, I see the Wizarding World's history as a part of the European history in the books. I am always amazed, when I read about the subjects the young wizards study in History of Magic class. If you replace them in the context of the real history (when we know the period) it is really great to see how they fit with that time and what happened then. I think, but it is only my opinion, that Jo has a lot of fun doing that and spend a lot of time creating a plausible wizarding history. Not only a background, but a true history. The better example of that is maybe in "Fantastic beasts" and "Quidditch through the ages", which are crammed with historical references. I do hope she will write "Hogwarts, an history" after book 7!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 24, 2004 3:58 pm (#749 of 1121)
The equation of Voldemort to Saturn (Coronus) is interesting because Im wonder if that in some fashion would make Grindelwald in some way a symbol for Uranus. The only difference being that Voldemort did not bring about the downfall of Grindlewald.
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Hollywand - Nov 24, 2004 4:40 pm (#750 of 1121)
Just looking on the Floo network, they list some Potter history:
They figure the story begins in 1991 interesting eleven anagram
The Floo Network aslo lists that in November (11th month) Harry catches the snitch in his mouth---they list 11am---and wins the cup for Gryffindor. Interesting synchronicity....
Colin is frozen by the basilisk in November. Hmmm.
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 751 to 775)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:04 am
Elanor - Nov 25, 2004 9:14 am (#751 of 1121)
Interesting indeed!
I've just realized something: it is said in the book about symbolism I've used about Saturn's symbol, that Saturn governs the 69th year of men. According to the Lexicon, Tom Riddle was born in 1927, which means that he turned 69 in 1996, so at the time of his rebirth, in 1995, he was in his 69th year. Saturn symbolizes both destruction and a power of rebirth and it is connected to that particuliar year in Voldemort's history. Curious isn't it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 26, 2004 5:51 pm (#752 of 1121)
A thought about the Tarot occurred to me in the majority of Tarot decks Justice is personified as a femenine figure. That being said what character in best represents the traits of the Justice card?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 26, 2004 8:13 pm (#753 of 1121)
Another thought occurred to me in each of the minor arcana suits there are four court cards.
Now is possible that the court cards individually represent the four houses of hogwarts.
Or do the court cards represent individuals with the suits themselves representing the houses?
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Elanor - Nov 27, 2004 8:14 am (#754 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! I think McGonagall is the character that may represent the traits of the Justice card the best. It was Hollywand who connected this card to her when we were talking about McGonagall's birthday. She is a Libra, and this sign is connected to the Justice card.
Her first name is Minerva (Athena), who was a formidable warrior also known for restoring concord when justice was done. Our Minerva was born under the Libra sign, which symbolizes Justice... The symbol of the Scales (Libra) was used very often in alchemy. The symbol refers to the relation between spiritual world and physical world, between Light and Darkness. It was meant to reveal the hidden reality of everything.
About the minor arcana suits, I think it is a very interesting idea. The 4 suits represents the 4 elements, which we have already connected to the 4 houses, so they certainly represent those houses too. The court cards you mention really intrigue me, they should really represent individuals in each house, even maybe the founder of each house, the "king" or "queen" of each suit. What do you think?
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Elanor - Nov 27, 2004 9:09 am (#755 of 1121)
Too late for editing! I've searched the net about the meaning of the minor arcanas in alchemy and that is pretty interesting because some figures seem to have a specific meaning.
The King of Cups for example represents male spirituality. The cup represents the conjunction between what is dry and what is damp, between Earth and Water. But what I found really funny was a quote from the alchemist Michel Maier (in Atalanta fugiens): "May the work of the potter, which consists in some dry and some damp, educate you." ("Que l'oeuvre du potier, qui se compose de sec et d'humide, t'instruise.")
Some alchemists also said that the Great work was nothing but the conjunction between the art of the potter and the art of the master glazier. Maybe our Potter has really more to learn from the Potters who preceded him, hasn't he?
I need more time for reading what I have found about the minor arcanas, I will post it tomorrow. But I couldn't resist telling you about the potter before that...
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 10:01 am (#756 of 1121)
As usual, Elanor, a great, poetic Potter post! ;-)
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 7:24 pm (#757 of 1121)
Ok, this could be a goofy set of associations, so I beg your pardon in advance:
Department of Mysteries: DOM root word for god and power. Ministry of Magic: MOM mother
Can't figure out why Rowling has used Mim, three times---is it a connection between Neville Mimbelus Mimbeltonia and Sir Mimsy Porpington.
NHN HRH HAH DOM MOM MIM
HMM Ok, I made that one up.... ;-)
Looking at Petunia Evans Dursley, I see an anagram for Neptune, but can't figure out the other letters---
Just blibbering away here.....
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zelmia - Nov 27, 2004 7:34 pm (#758 of 1121)
Except that, being British, I'm sure Rowling wrote Ministry For Magic (MFM) and not Ministry Of Magic.
I've got the JKR site up in another window. What's up with the butterflies and houseflies? Are we supposed to try and catch those? Do they mean anything? Seems a strange detail to put into a web site where the environment is meant to be a person's desk.
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 8:28 pm (#759 of 1121)
Hi Zelima! I understand the butterflies are from a notebook JKR had that she loved. The houseflies I have not a clue. The butterfly will change color at 8pm on your terminal's time and transform into a moth. The butterfly will also become a portkey and reveal the face of Dumbledore's watch if allowed to sit on the space bar for about 7 minutes. Hmmm space and time. Hmmm. Back to blibbering.....
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Elanor - Nov 28, 2004 9:07 am (#760 of 1121)
Ho butterflies! The universal symbol of evanescent beauty and of the the mystery of metamorphosis... Very representative of the metamorphosis the HP characters go through, don't they? Japanese poets connected it with melancholy, a wise Taoist poet was wondering, about dreaming of a butterfly, if he was dreaming of a butterfly or if the butterfly was dreaming of him, or if the butterfly was dreaming of him dreaming about a butterfly, or if he was dreaming of a butterfly which was dreaming of him dreaming about a butterfly... Er, sorry, Sunday evening musing... But I always thought that this butterfly, on Jo's desk, was very poetic and was maybe representing her musings when she works but it is only a feeling I have and it could represent a lot of other things too!
I've begun to read what I have found about the minor arcanas in Tarot and some things are really interesting. Each arcana is bound to one or more elements, and if we look carefully, to elements of the Wizarding world too.
- cups (the "potter" work) are bound to the Earth and Water elements.
A cup, a goblet, the connection is (too?) easy here...
- coins are bound to the Earth element. The most important court card here seems to be the knight who is connected to the symbols of Perseus and Pegasus we already encountered, if memory serves, when we talked about the chimera.
In French it is called "deniers", ancient money and I have to say that the WW money always made me think of the old monetary French system (before the French Revolution). Then you paid in livres (pounds), sols (sols) and deniers (deniers) with a curious system of count: 1 pound was equal to 20 sols and 1 sol was equal to 12 deniers. When you counted money then, you had to do just as we do with hours, minutes and seconds now: for example 25 sols=1 pound and 5 sols... It is just the same in the WW except that here a Galleon equals 17 sickles and a sickle 29 knuts. I always found it funny! In fact, counting like that is not as difficult as it seems first, it is just a matter of being used to it (and I know what it is since I had to recount the accounts of a whole hospital of the 17th century for history researches).
- swords are bound to the Air and Fire elements. The most important character here seems to be the Queen of swords. It is bound to a lot of symbols, including the sword the Archangel Gabriel used to bring down a dragon. The connection with Godric Gryffindor's sword is easy too.
- batons, or should I say wands, are bound to the Fire element. The baton (the stick) and the wand are the same symbols here. It represents mercury and some alchemists called it "the father of the Work". The most important court card here is the jack, the "valet" (servant) in French, that is to say Mercury.
Does it help? I don't know. I just thought it was curious and gave even more profoundness to Jo's work. In another thread, I read that she said we had to read between the lines and I believe it is the kind of things we can read here. Or I am ready for St Mungo this time, which is another possibility...
Hollywand: thanks for the compliment! I loved your associations BTW! I'm sure you're going to find the anagram for Petunia soon!
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Hollywand - Nov 28, 2004 9:37 pm (#761 of 1121)
Elanor, I would like to return to the discussion of the maze imagery used in the series as it relates to alchemy and architecture.
Earlier in this thread, we spoke about how important the maze was to the Triwizard Tournament, and that the maze is a feature contained in the architecture of many cathedrals.
I realized this:
In preparing a classic maze drawing, the standard method is to take a circle and bisect it into a quadrant. The macrocosmos of heaven, bisected, the Four Tempraments, by a cross, the microcosmos. Twelve dots are placed equidistant on the circle, and the dots serve as a guide to construct the walls: the twelve alchemical steps, the Stations of the Cross, the signs of the zodiac, the sun as it cycles the heavens. The quadrant divides the three dots, multiply and we have the seven 3x4 that yields twelve.
I have seen some maze myths that contain the Sky Door as the final attainment. The Sky Door symbolizes the core meaning of life, a quest for the pilgrim. I can't help thinking of the locked door at the Department of Mysteries, DOM, power, god.
This brings to mind Dumbledore's words and actions. Voldemort seeks to conquer death, but values life very little. Merely killing him would not be attainment. Harry is prepared to give his life for others, and paradoxically attains a highly valued life force. Power the dark lord knows not. Harry attains the gift of life as his parents are willing to lay down their lives for him. Voldemort's parents do not make the same gift to Tom Riddle.
It's sad to me how maligned this series has been when it has at its core such a powerfully spiritual thread.
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zelmia - Nov 28, 2004 10:55 pm (#762 of 1121)
Nothing terribly meaningful to contribute yet, Hollywand. Except this anecdote: About 10 years ago I used to teach preschool. One day, one of my 4-year-olds, upon waking up from his nap said to me, "There's just so many doors in there. It's like a maze of doors."
The reason I mention this now is that when I read the DoM section of OP (and again when I read your post, Hollywand), I was immediately reminded of that little boy's remark.
The DoM is indeed "a maze of doors", one in which Harry finds himself searching for the Sky Door. Okay it's not the Meaning of Life he's looking for, it the exit. But Harry IS looking for the meaning to the visions and dreams he's been having about the "maze of doors".
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Hollywand - Nov 29, 2004 8:04 am (#763 of 1121)
Zelmia, I think it's a tremendous contribution to bring a four year old Jungian to the table at this juncture of the discussion. A wonderful illustration of how deeply embedded archetypes are to the human imagination.
Children intuit the Sky Door.
I love the way you referred to the Maze of Doors versus the Department of Mysteries--it's akin to a sort of Mirror of Erised threshold .
I can't remember what these words are called---words that read the same backward and forward, like "level"; I'm sure someone will enlighten me!
In childhood, emotions are like dreamtime emotions, exaggerated, dramatic, unmediated, raw. The veil that denies the existential is very thin. Highly creative. Magic is possible, the world is wondrous, and terrifying.
Picasso said everyone is born knowing how to make art, and around eight they begin to forget.
Adolescents stand at the gateway of the Sky Door.
I salute Rowling for addressing the Potter series to every age group. I guess this means I'm not totally a muggle if I can appreciate her message. Whew.
I am reminded of Stephen King's recent remark : "Harry Potter is Harry Potter for adults, you dweebs." ;-)
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LooneyLuna - Nov 29, 2004 10:16 am (#764 of 1121)
I am mainly a lurker here - these posts are incredibly enlightening!
All I can add to today's discussion is:
You're thinking of a Palindrome, Hollywand. A Palindrome can be read the same backwards as forwards, whether it is a phrase or a word.
(I am quite excited that I had something to add)
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Elanor - Nov 29, 2004 12:55 pm (#765 of 1121)
Welcome on the thread LooneyLuna ! And thanks for the right word! That is so typical of what the alchemists used.
We discussed about the symbols they used, about anagrams and the phonetic cabbala but they also used enigmas, acrostics (when the first letter of each line of a poem, read vertically, makes a key word). So, the Philosopher's stone was sometimes called Azoth because A is the first letter of all alphabets, and z, o, t, h are the last letters of the Latin, Greek and Hebrew alphabets, which means that the stone is the principle and the end of everything.
They also used cryptography using letters (we talked about the letter H some times ago) or letters and numbers and, I've found that recently, the "Backwards writing", as Erised for Desire. So, the chances are good that we'll see more of those encrypted clues in the next books and I'm not sure at all that we figured out all the ones Jo already put in the first ones... But we're patient, obstinate and passionate, aren't we?
Great work Hollywand and Zelmia! I loved your analysis of the construction of a maze Hollywand. For alchemists, the maze was the symbol of their quest and the Ariadne's thread, the symbol of the help of the masters who preceded them. It reminds me that I have read that, in that case, the maze can be the equivalent of the Ouroboros, but a fragmented Ouroboros one has to gather together the pieces for recreating the primordial unity.
Now, if we apply that to Harry's quest, that really makes sense to me. The knowledge he has from his past and his parent's past is indeed fragmented. He has to gather together the pieces of his past, and of theirs, if he wants to achieve his quest for the wizarding world's sake and his own path to manhood. What do you think?
Edit: I really loved Stephen King's remark! Another great wizard in this world...
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Hollywand - Nov 29, 2004 8:40 pm (#766 of 1121)
Elanor, the last two paragraphs of your post are the nexus of the story! Truely awesome!
Voldemort, the fragmented Ouroboros, must assemble his new body in the Goblet of Fire, the stone cauldron, white sparks, glowing red---he reverses his Philosoher's Stone, and accepts mortality. He even admits that he is making this choice. He returns to the mortal.
Harry assembles his past with the A Priori Incantum--His past emerges from Voldemort's core. Wow. This is stunning.
The balance has shifted spiritually in Harry's favor.
In the coming books, I bet we will continue to see Harry assemble and integrate his past, present and future.
I just can't believe how the text grows richer and richer.
Looney Luna, we love you and thanks for the pallindrome!!! Much appreciated! Please feel free to join us! ;-)
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Elanor - Nov 30, 2004 12:37 pm (#767 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! And you're so right, Voldemort is experiencing the same thing at his "rebirthing party", that is brilliant!
Now, we already noticed that Harry's fate and the Wizarding World's fate are closely bound, it is the link between microcosm and macrocosm, the theory of the balance of the 4 elements, humours... So, this symbol has to apply to the Wizarding World too if we are right, and I think it does.
Since Salazar Slytherin left the other founders, there is a "fissure" in the Wizarding World, there is no balance anymore. In other words, it is fragmented because of Slytherins'convictions of who was worthy of being called a wizard. If Harry manages to unit Hogwarts against Voldemort's convictions and brings balance again to Hogwarts, it will bring it to the Wizarding World too. Therefore, he will gather together the pieces of the Wizarding World and give back to it his primordial unity. Does it make sense?
I can't help but think that the "blood" issue will become even more important in the next book since it is already mentioned in his title: the HBP. It is not an easy title and it was certainly carefully chosen...
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Hollywand - Nov 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#768 of 1121)
Nice summation, Elanor, and I think you are correct to tie it to a reintegration of the Wizarding World Balance. It's true, Rowling has been slowly building the blood lineage issue amongst many of the characters----Hagrid, the centaurs, some question on the elves, goblins and other magical creatures. I can't wait to see herself write herself out of this corner, and tie it all together! :-)
My turn to have a cold. You can call me Snuffles the pet rhino for a week or so.
We have now been given eleven birthdays on the website, so far. What do you say the twelfth and thirteenth birthdays have extra special sinificance? Not sure if I should count the Weasley twins on April Fool's Day as a single event, but I am counting as two.
Strange, I just read there's a new play here in Los Angeles called Ouroboros. The author conceptualizes the play as a time pallindrome that leads to the enoblement of the two main characters---one character has a tragic ending, one character has a triumphant resolution, but their fates are intertwined. Strange synchronicity.
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Elanor - Dec 1, 2004 1:53 am (#769 of 1121)
I'm so sorry about your cold Hollywand! I send you cheerings charms . I hope you will be better soon! The hot toddy with firewhisky inside is really great for that...
About birthdays, that is interesting! I don't know why but I wouldn't be surprised if DD's birthday was round about Christmas. Or it could be Arthur's birthday.
I have read a theory, I don't remember where, that Voldemort's birthday could be on the 31th of January, that is to say exactly on the opposite "side of the year" from Harry's birthday, which really makes sense to me. He could be the 13th birthday we'll learn. This is only speculation I know, yet it would reinforce the "couple of opposites" idea for Harry and Voldemort.
I've checked Jo's site this morning to see who is the Witch of the month and saw that she has put Christmas decorations everywhere and, above all, holly everywhere. I can't help but think it is a nod in the direction of Harry's wand. Farfetched, I know, but we've seen stranger things already...
Okay, I'd better go back to work! I'll post something more constructive later today.
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 7:18 am (#770 of 1121)
Thanks, Elanor. Maybe Sir Neville Longbottom can brew up some musical potion from the Mimbulus Mimbetonia for me..
I noticed the Witch of the Month has a swirling beaker of red fire in her hand, and her face is shaped like the star/face entity from some alchemical illustrations. The inverted triangle is so strong in her portrait! And the reference to fire as her name.....very interesting.
To your point about the birthdays---it would make sense if Albus Dumbledore is the twelfth birthday, that's a great suggestion. I was so focused on the thirteenth birthday, which will, I believe, be You-Know-Who----and perhaps also a herald of the new Silver Book Six. Yikes! :-0
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 12:10 pm (#771 of 1121)
A few details I noticed looking at the JKR website today:
The telephone counts to five when the voice answers, disconnects when it reaches five.
The dog barking at the door could be a reference to Sirius as guardian.
The Room of Requirement diagram is circular, and divided just like a clock, a lot like Dumbledore's watch----this begs the question---is Dumbledore's Army always in the Room of Requirement at the same time? Is the room something entirely different at a different time? Is this the room Jo was speaking of---could Harry, for example, go into his past by entering the Room of Requirement when he needs a chat with his parents? Intriguing thought!
Why are all the Christmas bows on the site green? Do the spokes of the bows add up to twelve, or am I hallucinating?
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 1, 2004 12:16 pm (#772 of 1121)
First moment I've had to stop in for ages...
I was lucky enough to come across a very thorough article on the Four Elements and their Powers (Hot, Cold, Moist, Dry). Nothing new to you bunch, I'm sure, since I've seen Elanor saying a lot of this, but I sure learned a lot, and I wanted to make some comments (forgive me if I'm covering old ground here).
If Harry as the presumed Heir of Gryffindor represents Fire, and Voldemort as the Heir of Slytherin represents Water, they would cancel each other out without the mediating presence of Air (or Earth, to a lesser extent), which can unite the opposites. I found myself thinking of that moment in the graveyard, when the opposites were joined, and the two were suddenly levitated into the air, to the sound of phoenix song. They returned to earth in a spot free of graves. Interesting... I also found myself thinking of steam, which we've seen coming from Harry's ears from the Pepper-up potion. Steam is the union of fire, water, and air.
Also tea, which is used to communicate truth, is very much connected to steam. The water is subjected to fire, steam comes out, and then tea is served. If you look at the text, truth is often revealed around "tea". For example, Dudley claimed that he and his friends were "having tea," but that was a lie; they were out vandalizing the neighborhood. The zookeeper also made Petunia a cup of strong tea after the snake escaped.
The article talked about the fire of the depths, that fire is the highest Element, but also the lowest in the depths (another ouroboros). It said that, according to myth, after the Sun sets, it shines in Tartaros, the Central Fire, so the central fire is known as the Black Sun. This got me thinking about the black fire that Harry had to pass through to reach Quirrelmort in SS/PS. The article also talked about heroization, through an actual or symbolic death by Fire (hmm...phoenix time!). The purifying Fire burns away the imperfect, so that one can be reborn. The writer said that lightning, as celestial fire, is the purest fire and the most potent force for heroization. This made me think of Harry's lightning scar!
Well, that's enough thinking for me...I hope some bit of that was new. By the way, loved that bit about Potters working with Earth and Water...excellent!
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Elanor - Dec 1, 2004 12:44 pm (#773 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand! The musical potion is a great idea indeed! About the Witch of the month, you're right, she is very interesting! Being called Ignacia (from the Latin verb for "to catch fire"), she must have loved fire all her life...
I just wanted to tell you about a detail I have found that is pretty interesting concerning the alchemical symbolism of the fountain. In alchemy, it is a Fountain of Youth one can only discover and drink its water if he carries out the Great Work. Now, where it becomes interesting: in the achemical symbol, the water of the fountain falls into a circular basin and I opened OotP again to see how the Fountain of the MoM was described: "A group of golden statues, larger than life-size, stood in the middle of a circular pool." (p.117). Often, there is a tree and a stone close by it. The water is a feminin symbol, the stone is a masculin one and the tree is androgynous. In a word, the "essence" of life for a water of life. There is no tree in the Fountain of Magical Brethren, but the statues are, from wizards'point of view, the symbol of life in the WW.
More, the fountain can also be the symbol of the philosophical salt, the one alchemists called "the sun of metal" because it warms it up and gives life to it... And the golden statues are certainly "alive" thanks to DD at the end of the book.
Edit: wow, you've been busy while I was writting Hollywand and RPS! That is certainly very interesting and gives me a lot of food for thoughts! I loved the "air" element between Harry and Voldemort in the graveyard! It is good to see you here, RPS! **waving**
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 1, 2004 1:34 pm (#774 of 1121)
Ooops, going back to my notes, I forgot another thing, about bronze.
Bronze is connected to Hekate, who is a goddess of both the Underworld and the Moon. It's also connected to the alchemy of smiths. The article talked quite a bit about Hephaistos, the god of smiths, who was married to Aphrodite (a marriage of Fire and Water). Bronze is the second color of Ravenclaw house (blue and bronze), which seems to be tied to Air. So bronze is connected to the Moon, which is the intermediary between the Sun (Fire) and the Earth, which means that it's connected to Quicksilver, which is the intermediary between sulphur and salt, yada yada...
The bit about Hephaistos made me think also about Potters, who like smiths create things. The book Quidditch Through the Ages mentions Bowman Wright, who was a metal smith and invented the Golden Snitch to replace the Golden Snidget bird, and since he lived in Godric's Hollow there's probably a connection between this metalsmith and the Potters...
I'm loving this!
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 2:09 pm (#775 of 1121)
Nice connections Spiderwoman!
So we've got
Bowman Wright Ingatia Wildsmith Devlin Whitehorn
and, um,Uric the Oddball....
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Interesting indeed!
I've just realized something: it is said in the book about symbolism I've used about Saturn's symbol, that Saturn governs the 69th year of men. According to the Lexicon, Tom Riddle was born in 1927, which means that he turned 69 in 1996, so at the time of his rebirth, in 1995, he was in his 69th year. Saturn symbolizes both destruction and a power of rebirth and it is connected to that particuliar year in Voldemort's history. Curious isn't it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 26, 2004 5:51 pm (#752 of 1121)
A thought about the Tarot occurred to me in the majority of Tarot decks Justice is personified as a femenine figure. That being said what character in best represents the traits of the Justice card?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 26, 2004 8:13 pm (#753 of 1121)
Another thought occurred to me in each of the minor arcana suits there are four court cards.
Now is possible that the court cards individually represent the four houses of hogwarts.
Or do the court cards represent individuals with the suits themselves representing the houses?
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Elanor - Nov 27, 2004 8:14 am (#754 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! I think McGonagall is the character that may represent the traits of the Justice card the best. It was Hollywand who connected this card to her when we were talking about McGonagall's birthday. She is a Libra, and this sign is connected to the Justice card.
Her first name is Minerva (Athena), who was a formidable warrior also known for restoring concord when justice was done. Our Minerva was born under the Libra sign, which symbolizes Justice... The symbol of the Scales (Libra) was used very often in alchemy. The symbol refers to the relation between spiritual world and physical world, between Light and Darkness. It was meant to reveal the hidden reality of everything.
About the minor arcana suits, I think it is a very interesting idea. The 4 suits represents the 4 elements, which we have already connected to the 4 houses, so they certainly represent those houses too. The court cards you mention really intrigue me, they should really represent individuals in each house, even maybe the founder of each house, the "king" or "queen" of each suit. What do you think?
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Elanor - Nov 27, 2004 9:09 am (#755 of 1121)
Too late for editing! I've searched the net about the meaning of the minor arcanas in alchemy and that is pretty interesting because some figures seem to have a specific meaning.
The King of Cups for example represents male spirituality. The cup represents the conjunction between what is dry and what is damp, between Earth and Water. But what I found really funny was a quote from the alchemist Michel Maier (in Atalanta fugiens): "May the work of the potter, which consists in some dry and some damp, educate you." ("Que l'oeuvre du potier, qui se compose de sec et d'humide, t'instruise.")
Some alchemists also said that the Great work was nothing but the conjunction between the art of the potter and the art of the master glazier. Maybe our Potter has really more to learn from the Potters who preceded him, hasn't he?
I need more time for reading what I have found about the minor arcanas, I will post it tomorrow. But I couldn't resist telling you about the potter before that...
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 10:01 am (#756 of 1121)
As usual, Elanor, a great, poetic Potter post! ;-)
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 7:24 pm (#757 of 1121)
Ok, this could be a goofy set of associations, so I beg your pardon in advance:
Department of Mysteries: DOM root word for god and power. Ministry of Magic: MOM mother
Can't figure out why Rowling has used Mim, three times---is it a connection between Neville Mimbelus Mimbeltonia and Sir Mimsy Porpington.
NHN HRH HAH DOM MOM MIM
HMM Ok, I made that one up.... ;-)
Looking at Petunia Evans Dursley, I see an anagram for Neptune, but can't figure out the other letters---
Just blibbering away here.....
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zelmia - Nov 27, 2004 7:34 pm (#758 of 1121)
Except that, being British, I'm sure Rowling wrote Ministry For Magic (MFM) and not Ministry Of Magic.
I've got the JKR site up in another window. What's up with the butterflies and houseflies? Are we supposed to try and catch those? Do they mean anything? Seems a strange detail to put into a web site where the environment is meant to be a person's desk.
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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 8:28 pm (#759 of 1121)
Hi Zelima! I understand the butterflies are from a notebook JKR had that she loved. The houseflies I have not a clue. The butterfly will change color at 8pm on your terminal's time and transform into a moth. The butterfly will also become a portkey and reveal the face of Dumbledore's watch if allowed to sit on the space bar for about 7 minutes. Hmmm space and time. Hmmm. Back to blibbering.....
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Elanor - Nov 28, 2004 9:07 am (#760 of 1121)
Ho butterflies! The universal symbol of evanescent beauty and of the the mystery of metamorphosis... Very representative of the metamorphosis the HP characters go through, don't they? Japanese poets connected it with melancholy, a wise Taoist poet was wondering, about dreaming of a butterfly, if he was dreaming of a butterfly or if the butterfly was dreaming of him, or if the butterfly was dreaming of him dreaming about a butterfly, or if he was dreaming of a butterfly which was dreaming of him dreaming about a butterfly... Er, sorry, Sunday evening musing... But I always thought that this butterfly, on Jo's desk, was very poetic and was maybe representing her musings when she works but it is only a feeling I have and it could represent a lot of other things too!
I've begun to read what I have found about the minor arcanas in Tarot and some things are really interesting. Each arcana is bound to one or more elements, and if we look carefully, to elements of the Wizarding world too.
- cups (the "potter" work) are bound to the Earth and Water elements.
A cup, a goblet, the connection is (too?) easy here...
- coins are bound to the Earth element. The most important court card here seems to be the knight who is connected to the symbols of Perseus and Pegasus we already encountered, if memory serves, when we talked about the chimera.
In French it is called "deniers", ancient money and I have to say that the WW money always made me think of the old monetary French system (before the French Revolution). Then you paid in livres (pounds), sols (sols) and deniers (deniers) with a curious system of count: 1 pound was equal to 20 sols and 1 sol was equal to 12 deniers. When you counted money then, you had to do just as we do with hours, minutes and seconds now: for example 25 sols=1 pound and 5 sols... It is just the same in the WW except that here a Galleon equals 17 sickles and a sickle 29 knuts. I always found it funny! In fact, counting like that is not as difficult as it seems first, it is just a matter of being used to it (and I know what it is since I had to recount the accounts of a whole hospital of the 17th century for history researches).
- swords are bound to the Air and Fire elements. The most important character here seems to be the Queen of swords. It is bound to a lot of symbols, including the sword the Archangel Gabriel used to bring down a dragon. The connection with Godric Gryffindor's sword is easy too.
- batons, or should I say wands, are bound to the Fire element. The baton (the stick) and the wand are the same symbols here. It represents mercury and some alchemists called it "the father of the Work". The most important court card here is the jack, the "valet" (servant) in French, that is to say Mercury.
Does it help? I don't know. I just thought it was curious and gave even more profoundness to Jo's work. In another thread, I read that she said we had to read between the lines and I believe it is the kind of things we can read here. Or I am ready for St Mungo this time, which is another possibility...
Hollywand: thanks for the compliment! I loved your associations BTW! I'm sure you're going to find the anagram for Petunia soon!
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Hollywand - Nov 28, 2004 9:37 pm (#761 of 1121)
Elanor, I would like to return to the discussion of the maze imagery used in the series as it relates to alchemy and architecture.
Earlier in this thread, we spoke about how important the maze was to the Triwizard Tournament, and that the maze is a feature contained in the architecture of many cathedrals.
I realized this:
In preparing a classic maze drawing, the standard method is to take a circle and bisect it into a quadrant. The macrocosmos of heaven, bisected, the Four Tempraments, by a cross, the microcosmos. Twelve dots are placed equidistant on the circle, and the dots serve as a guide to construct the walls: the twelve alchemical steps, the Stations of the Cross, the signs of the zodiac, the sun as it cycles the heavens. The quadrant divides the three dots, multiply and we have the seven 3x4 that yields twelve.
I have seen some maze myths that contain the Sky Door as the final attainment. The Sky Door symbolizes the core meaning of life, a quest for the pilgrim. I can't help thinking of the locked door at the Department of Mysteries, DOM, power, god.
This brings to mind Dumbledore's words and actions. Voldemort seeks to conquer death, but values life very little. Merely killing him would not be attainment. Harry is prepared to give his life for others, and paradoxically attains a highly valued life force. Power the dark lord knows not. Harry attains the gift of life as his parents are willing to lay down their lives for him. Voldemort's parents do not make the same gift to Tom Riddle.
It's sad to me how maligned this series has been when it has at its core such a powerfully spiritual thread.
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zelmia - Nov 28, 2004 10:55 pm (#762 of 1121)
Nothing terribly meaningful to contribute yet, Hollywand. Except this anecdote: About 10 years ago I used to teach preschool. One day, one of my 4-year-olds, upon waking up from his nap said to me, "There's just so many doors in there. It's like a maze of doors."
The reason I mention this now is that when I read the DoM section of OP (and again when I read your post, Hollywand), I was immediately reminded of that little boy's remark.
The DoM is indeed "a maze of doors", one in which Harry finds himself searching for the Sky Door. Okay it's not the Meaning of Life he's looking for, it the exit. But Harry IS looking for the meaning to the visions and dreams he's been having about the "maze of doors".
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Hollywand - Nov 29, 2004 8:04 am (#763 of 1121)
Zelmia, I think it's a tremendous contribution to bring a four year old Jungian to the table at this juncture of the discussion. A wonderful illustration of how deeply embedded archetypes are to the human imagination.
Children intuit the Sky Door.
I love the way you referred to the Maze of Doors versus the Department of Mysteries--it's akin to a sort of Mirror of Erised threshold .
I can't remember what these words are called---words that read the same backward and forward, like "level"; I'm sure someone will enlighten me!
In childhood, emotions are like dreamtime emotions, exaggerated, dramatic, unmediated, raw. The veil that denies the existential is very thin. Highly creative. Magic is possible, the world is wondrous, and terrifying.
Picasso said everyone is born knowing how to make art, and around eight they begin to forget.
Adolescents stand at the gateway of the Sky Door.
I salute Rowling for addressing the Potter series to every age group. I guess this means I'm not totally a muggle if I can appreciate her message. Whew.
I am reminded of Stephen King's recent remark : "Harry Potter is Harry Potter for adults, you dweebs." ;-)
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LooneyLuna - Nov 29, 2004 10:16 am (#764 of 1121)
I am mainly a lurker here - these posts are incredibly enlightening!
All I can add to today's discussion is:
You're thinking of a Palindrome, Hollywand. A Palindrome can be read the same backwards as forwards, whether it is a phrase or a word.
(I am quite excited that I had something to add)
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Elanor - Nov 29, 2004 12:55 pm (#765 of 1121)
Welcome on the thread LooneyLuna ! And thanks for the right word! That is so typical of what the alchemists used.
We discussed about the symbols they used, about anagrams and the phonetic cabbala but they also used enigmas, acrostics (when the first letter of each line of a poem, read vertically, makes a key word). So, the Philosopher's stone was sometimes called Azoth because A is the first letter of all alphabets, and z, o, t, h are the last letters of the Latin, Greek and Hebrew alphabets, which means that the stone is the principle and the end of everything.
They also used cryptography using letters (we talked about the letter H some times ago) or letters and numbers and, I've found that recently, the "Backwards writing", as Erised for Desire. So, the chances are good that we'll see more of those encrypted clues in the next books and I'm not sure at all that we figured out all the ones Jo already put in the first ones... But we're patient, obstinate and passionate, aren't we?
Great work Hollywand and Zelmia! I loved your analysis of the construction of a maze Hollywand. For alchemists, the maze was the symbol of their quest and the Ariadne's thread, the symbol of the help of the masters who preceded them. It reminds me that I have read that, in that case, the maze can be the equivalent of the Ouroboros, but a fragmented Ouroboros one has to gather together the pieces for recreating the primordial unity.
Now, if we apply that to Harry's quest, that really makes sense to me. The knowledge he has from his past and his parent's past is indeed fragmented. He has to gather together the pieces of his past, and of theirs, if he wants to achieve his quest for the wizarding world's sake and his own path to manhood. What do you think?
Edit: I really loved Stephen King's remark! Another great wizard in this world...
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Hollywand - Nov 29, 2004 8:40 pm (#766 of 1121)
Elanor, the last two paragraphs of your post are the nexus of the story! Truely awesome!
Voldemort, the fragmented Ouroboros, must assemble his new body in the Goblet of Fire, the stone cauldron, white sparks, glowing red---he reverses his Philosoher's Stone, and accepts mortality. He even admits that he is making this choice. He returns to the mortal.
Harry assembles his past with the A Priori Incantum--His past emerges from Voldemort's core. Wow. This is stunning.
The balance has shifted spiritually in Harry's favor.
In the coming books, I bet we will continue to see Harry assemble and integrate his past, present and future.
I just can't believe how the text grows richer and richer.
Looney Luna, we love you and thanks for the pallindrome!!! Much appreciated! Please feel free to join us! ;-)
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Elanor - Nov 30, 2004 12:37 pm (#767 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! And you're so right, Voldemort is experiencing the same thing at his "rebirthing party", that is brilliant!
Now, we already noticed that Harry's fate and the Wizarding World's fate are closely bound, it is the link between microcosm and macrocosm, the theory of the balance of the 4 elements, humours... So, this symbol has to apply to the Wizarding World too if we are right, and I think it does.
Since Salazar Slytherin left the other founders, there is a "fissure" in the Wizarding World, there is no balance anymore. In other words, it is fragmented because of Slytherins'convictions of who was worthy of being called a wizard. If Harry manages to unit Hogwarts against Voldemort's convictions and brings balance again to Hogwarts, it will bring it to the Wizarding World too. Therefore, he will gather together the pieces of the Wizarding World and give back to it his primordial unity. Does it make sense?
I can't help but think that the "blood" issue will become even more important in the next book since it is already mentioned in his title: the HBP. It is not an easy title and it was certainly carefully chosen...
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Hollywand - Nov 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#768 of 1121)
Nice summation, Elanor, and I think you are correct to tie it to a reintegration of the Wizarding World Balance. It's true, Rowling has been slowly building the blood lineage issue amongst many of the characters----Hagrid, the centaurs, some question on the elves, goblins and other magical creatures. I can't wait to see herself write herself out of this corner, and tie it all together! :-)
My turn to have a cold. You can call me Snuffles the pet rhino for a week or so.
We have now been given eleven birthdays on the website, so far. What do you say the twelfth and thirteenth birthdays have extra special sinificance? Not sure if I should count the Weasley twins on April Fool's Day as a single event, but I am counting as two.
Strange, I just read there's a new play here in Los Angeles called Ouroboros. The author conceptualizes the play as a time pallindrome that leads to the enoblement of the two main characters---one character has a tragic ending, one character has a triumphant resolution, but their fates are intertwined. Strange synchronicity.
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Elanor - Dec 1, 2004 1:53 am (#769 of 1121)
I'm so sorry about your cold Hollywand! I send you cheerings charms . I hope you will be better soon! The hot toddy with firewhisky inside is really great for that...
About birthdays, that is interesting! I don't know why but I wouldn't be surprised if DD's birthday was round about Christmas. Or it could be Arthur's birthday.
I have read a theory, I don't remember where, that Voldemort's birthday could be on the 31th of January, that is to say exactly on the opposite "side of the year" from Harry's birthday, which really makes sense to me. He could be the 13th birthday we'll learn. This is only speculation I know, yet it would reinforce the "couple of opposites" idea for Harry and Voldemort.
I've checked Jo's site this morning to see who is the Witch of the month and saw that she has put Christmas decorations everywhere and, above all, holly everywhere. I can't help but think it is a nod in the direction of Harry's wand. Farfetched, I know, but we've seen stranger things already...
Okay, I'd better go back to work! I'll post something more constructive later today.
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 7:18 am (#770 of 1121)
Thanks, Elanor. Maybe Sir Neville Longbottom can brew up some musical potion from the Mimbulus Mimbetonia for me..
I noticed the Witch of the Month has a swirling beaker of red fire in her hand, and her face is shaped like the star/face entity from some alchemical illustrations. The inverted triangle is so strong in her portrait! And the reference to fire as her name.....very interesting.
To your point about the birthdays---it would make sense if Albus Dumbledore is the twelfth birthday, that's a great suggestion. I was so focused on the thirteenth birthday, which will, I believe, be You-Know-Who----and perhaps also a herald of the new Silver Book Six. Yikes! :-0
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 12:10 pm (#771 of 1121)
A few details I noticed looking at the JKR website today:
The telephone counts to five when the voice answers, disconnects when it reaches five.
The dog barking at the door could be a reference to Sirius as guardian.
The Room of Requirement diagram is circular, and divided just like a clock, a lot like Dumbledore's watch----this begs the question---is Dumbledore's Army always in the Room of Requirement at the same time? Is the room something entirely different at a different time? Is this the room Jo was speaking of---could Harry, for example, go into his past by entering the Room of Requirement when he needs a chat with his parents? Intriguing thought!
Why are all the Christmas bows on the site green? Do the spokes of the bows add up to twelve, or am I hallucinating?
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 1, 2004 12:16 pm (#772 of 1121)
First moment I've had to stop in for ages...
I was lucky enough to come across a very thorough article on the Four Elements and their Powers (Hot, Cold, Moist, Dry). Nothing new to you bunch, I'm sure, since I've seen Elanor saying a lot of this, but I sure learned a lot, and I wanted to make some comments (forgive me if I'm covering old ground here).
If Harry as the presumed Heir of Gryffindor represents Fire, and Voldemort as the Heir of Slytherin represents Water, they would cancel each other out without the mediating presence of Air (or Earth, to a lesser extent), which can unite the opposites. I found myself thinking of that moment in the graveyard, when the opposites were joined, and the two were suddenly levitated into the air, to the sound of phoenix song. They returned to earth in a spot free of graves. Interesting... I also found myself thinking of steam, which we've seen coming from Harry's ears from the Pepper-up potion. Steam is the union of fire, water, and air.
Also tea, which is used to communicate truth, is very much connected to steam. The water is subjected to fire, steam comes out, and then tea is served. If you look at the text, truth is often revealed around "tea". For example, Dudley claimed that he and his friends were "having tea," but that was a lie; they were out vandalizing the neighborhood. The zookeeper also made Petunia a cup of strong tea after the snake escaped.
The article talked about the fire of the depths, that fire is the highest Element, but also the lowest in the depths (another ouroboros). It said that, according to myth, after the Sun sets, it shines in Tartaros, the Central Fire, so the central fire is known as the Black Sun. This got me thinking about the black fire that Harry had to pass through to reach Quirrelmort in SS/PS. The article also talked about heroization, through an actual or symbolic death by Fire (hmm...phoenix time!). The purifying Fire burns away the imperfect, so that one can be reborn. The writer said that lightning, as celestial fire, is the purest fire and the most potent force for heroization. This made me think of Harry's lightning scar!
Well, that's enough thinking for me...I hope some bit of that was new. By the way, loved that bit about Potters working with Earth and Water...excellent!
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Elanor - Dec 1, 2004 12:44 pm (#773 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand! The musical potion is a great idea indeed! About the Witch of the month, you're right, she is very interesting! Being called Ignacia (from the Latin verb for "to catch fire"), she must have loved fire all her life...
I just wanted to tell you about a detail I have found that is pretty interesting concerning the alchemical symbolism of the fountain. In alchemy, it is a Fountain of Youth one can only discover and drink its water if he carries out the Great Work. Now, where it becomes interesting: in the achemical symbol, the water of the fountain falls into a circular basin and I opened OotP again to see how the Fountain of the MoM was described: "A group of golden statues, larger than life-size, stood in the middle of a circular pool." (p.117). Often, there is a tree and a stone close by it. The water is a feminin symbol, the stone is a masculin one and the tree is androgynous. In a word, the "essence" of life for a water of life. There is no tree in the Fountain of Magical Brethren, but the statues are, from wizards'point of view, the symbol of life in the WW.
More, the fountain can also be the symbol of the philosophical salt, the one alchemists called "the sun of metal" because it warms it up and gives life to it... And the golden statues are certainly "alive" thanks to DD at the end of the book.
Edit: wow, you've been busy while I was writting Hollywand and RPS! That is certainly very interesting and gives me a lot of food for thoughts! I loved the "air" element between Harry and Voldemort in the graveyard! It is good to see you here, RPS! **waving**
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 1, 2004 1:34 pm (#774 of 1121)
Ooops, going back to my notes, I forgot another thing, about bronze.
Bronze is connected to Hekate, who is a goddess of both the Underworld and the Moon. It's also connected to the alchemy of smiths. The article talked quite a bit about Hephaistos, the god of smiths, who was married to Aphrodite (a marriage of Fire and Water). Bronze is the second color of Ravenclaw house (blue and bronze), which seems to be tied to Air. So bronze is connected to the Moon, which is the intermediary between the Sun (Fire) and the Earth, which means that it's connected to Quicksilver, which is the intermediary between sulphur and salt, yada yada...
The bit about Hephaistos made me think also about Potters, who like smiths create things. The book Quidditch Through the Ages mentions Bowman Wright, who was a metal smith and invented the Golden Snitch to replace the Golden Snidget bird, and since he lived in Godric's Hollow there's probably a connection between this metalsmith and the Potters...
I'm loving this!
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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 2:09 pm (#775 of 1121)
Nice connections Spiderwoman!
So we've got
Bowman Wright Ingatia Wildsmith Devlin Whitehorn
and, um,Uric the Oddball....
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 776 to 800)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:05 am
Archangel - Dec 1, 2004 7:53 pm (#776 of 1121)
Is it just me or does the new witch of the month resemble E.T. somewhat? -_-
s Ignatia the female form of Ignatius? There might be a connection between her and Percy's character, whose middle name is Ignatius.
She invented the Floo Powder. Harry first knew about this while staying at the Burrow. I believe Percy was one of the Weasley kids who demonstrated to him how it works (or is this from the movie only?)
Floo Powder is used by wizards as a mode of communication and transportation. When you throw it in the fireplace, it emits a green smoke -- the color of change. I wonder if she stumbled upon this by accident... FLOO POWDER = FOOL POWDER?
In Tarot, The Fool card is Card 0 (zero) in major arcana -- the beginning. The fool is the naive traveller on a quest to learn what the world has to offer. Fool's Powder is a tool for the Fool to go through his journey.
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 2, 2004 11:46 am (#777 of 1121)
I absolutely agree with you, Archangel. She DOES look like E.T., a lot like E.T.! Is that because you can use Floo Powder to "phone home"?
Back to the same article (it was quite an article!), it referred to the uniting role that Air (or Earth) can play between Fire and Water as a "harmonia", which means a seamless union in which each retains its unique identity. It occurs to me that Dumbledore hinted (SS/PS) that music was very important, "A magic beyond all we do here", and his Chocolate Frog card mentioned that he likes Chamber Music (ha ha). When Harry and Voldemort were levitated into the air, it was to the sound of phoenix song. Maybe, somehow, music is going to play some role in the grand climax between Harry and Voldemort!
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Elanor - Dec 2, 2004 12:21 pm (#778 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone!
Just some details you might find interesting:
- the smith: he is the symbol of the idea of transformation. Hence he is the first alchemist, the more because the metal he warps is black at the beginning and then becomes red and after that white. These are the colours of the Great Work and, which is interesting those colours are here in the same order than we see them appear in the "rebirthing scene". Hmmm...
- Ignacia Wildsmith: I think Ignacia comes from the Latin root "ign" which means fire: ignesco means "to catch fire", ignitus, a "blazing, full of fire", and ignis simply "fire"... She is connected with the smith we just talked about, and Hephaistos was also the master of the Fire... A fiery temperament for sure!
- The fool: some times ago, we spoke about the Fool card in tarot that RPS was associating maybe with Peeves. As I wrote then, "the Fool represents the wanderer and the king’s fool too, that is to say the one who researches the truth and also the one who is free to say everything. In that way, his madness is, in fact, superior wisdom. What is curious is that the Fool is the card 0 but it can also be named the card 22, that is to say that it is at the beginning and at the end of the Arcana. It also represents the infinite cycle of creation (22 coming to 0 again). Peeves is a mystery and, through his madness, he may reveal us some interesting clues."
Now that I reread that, it makes me think that the Fool is another ouroboros symbol, in his own way.
I like your idea of the Fool Powder, Archangel! If we see the Fool as the one who searches truth, then we might see the Fool/Floo powder as the tool for Harry for searching the truth too. The first time he travels by Floo Powder, he learns some truth about the Malfoys. He spoke to Sirius thanks to the Floo Powder searching for the truth, in GoF and OotP. And, at the end of OotP, when he spoke to Kreacher he assumed he was hearing the truth. It wasn't, but it led him to discover the truth about the prophecy.
Does it make sense? I can't remember for now the other times Harry used the Floo powder that might be relevant and, that is foolish indeed, I still have some work to do for school tomorrow so I can't search for them now but I'll try and think about other ones for tomorrow!
Edit: I was writting while you posted again RPS! You're right, music will certainly be important in the next books. Alchemists used it a lot too as another secret language. If I remember well, we talked about it some weeks ago. It was about the Mimbulus Mimbletonia and its possible healing music I think.
Edit again: I found it! It was on october the 27th! This is the link: music
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 2, 2004 10:27 pm (#779 of 1121)
Something struck me about Bill Weasley's birthday is given as being the 28 November (28/11) and when the four digits that make up the number of the month and day asre added together the sum equals 12.
Also some interesting associations came to light when I looked a the birthdates for Harry, Hermione, Ron and Neville
Harry's birthday is 31 July (31/07). 3+1+0+7 = 11. In the modern Tarot the eleventh card of the major arcana is either Strength or Justice depending on the deck being used
Hermione's birthday is 19 September (19/09). 1+9+0+9 = 19. In the modern Tarot the nineteenth card of the major arcana is The Sun
Ron's Birthday is 1 March (01/03) 0+1+0+3 = 4. In the modern Tarot the fourth card of the major arcana is The Emperor
Neville's birthday 30 July (30/07). 3+0+0+7 = 10. In the modern Tarot the tenth card of the major arcana is the Wheel of Fortune
Fred and George Also hbirthday is 1 April (01/04). 0+1+0+4 =5. In the modern Tarot the fifth card of the major arcana is the Hierophant(Pope). One of the representations of the pope is of a person acts a spiritual guide and someone who adheres to a tradition and ritualism. In much the same way as Fred and George perceive themselves as the successors to the Marauders.
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Elanor - Dec 3, 2004 12:36 pm (#780 of 1121)
That is curious indeed Nathan!
If you search for the 10 first numbers meaning according to alchemy, then :
- Harry is bound to the number 2, 1+1, (the pair of opposites symbol!)
- Hermione to the number 10, 1+9, or, that is the same thing, the number 1 (the ouroboros)
- Ron to the number 4 (the balance of the 4 elements, humours...)
- Neville to the number 10 or 1 as Hermione (the ouroboros)
- Fred and George to the number 5 (the unity of the Work and the spiritual unity of the creation through the Quintessence symbol)
BTW, if we try with Harry's complete birthday, 3+1+0+7+1+9+8+0=29, 2+9=11, 1+1=2, we fins the same number 2!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 3, 2004 9:11 pm (#781 of 1121)
Elanor that is interesting indeed. One of the reason I found the connection fascinating is because, I have often thought of Harry and Moody as being the male aspect of Justice.
Ginny's birthday is 11 August (11/08) 1+1+0+8 =10. I wonder is it possible that Ginny is the female counterpart to Neville
Percy's birthday is 22 August (22/08). 2+2+0+8 = 12. The twelfth card in the modern Tarot is the Hanged Man which is appropriate given Percy's attitude in books three four and five. Now on to some other questions. I have some other questions I would like to put before the assembly.
First, the majority of major arcana cards have been discussed at some point or other but, there are several that have not been discussed namely the Moon, the Star, the sun Temperance. Are there any ideas about what figures have reached those points.
Second, the associations made by Elanor between the elements and the suits tend to lend themselves to the four houses. Is it possible then that in general the suits of the minor arcana represent the students at Hogwarts with possible exceptions of the Sextet that fought at the DoM while, the Trumps of the Major Arcana represent the adult figures?
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zelmia - Dec 3, 2004 10:53 pm (#782 of 1121)
The thing about The Hanged Man is that he chooses sacrifice - to sacrifice himself, as it were. It is a card that represents being poised in a position of change, the next card being Death. But the key is that it is a conscious choice the querant makes.
While Percy is indeed in a bit of a precarious position, I disagree slightly that he has made a conscious decision of "sacrifice". Percy is where he is at present due to his own arrogance.
I like the idea of the Major Arcana corresponding to the Adult figures in the saga. Although, there are several younger characters who have already attained a certain level of enlightenment/awareness/knowledge, etc.
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Hollywand - Dec 3, 2004 11:42 pm (#783 of 1121)
Elanor, your comments about the Fountain of the Magical Bretheren, the tree and the stone just a few posts earlier, left me, uh, pardon the pun, pondering. ;-)
It dawned on me that the Lake at Hogwarts is called Black Lake, and so, a metaphorical reference to depression and nigredo.
In a sense, Harry's first separation from Sirius is at Black Lake, and a harbinger of Sirius' death and Harry's psychological suffering---I am stunned I didn't see this before. Rowling has referenced black on black so many times, she must be stunned that we don't see the reference. Hah.
Sirius almost passes through the Veil at this juncture---and the Dementors are set to extract his soul---I always hate to call it a kiss, as I associate this gesture with affection and not death.
Harry is alone with Sirius at the edge of the lake (this is such a strong metaphor for tending to someone who is very ill). Sirus has just defended the trio from both Lupin and Severus---so Lupin, Severus and Sirius are a trio at this juncture as well. Wow.
All of the wizards have been party to the intense internal conflict. Sirius appears to wound Ron, Harry and Hermione pursue Sirius to kill the dog and save Ron, Wormtail betrays everyone, Severus betrays Lupin and Sirius, the trio attack Severus. Why, it's a wizard slug fest! A veritable alchemical soup! Yikes!
The Wormtail/Harry Potter life debt is forged. Harry bonds with Sirius, and is truly adopted. He finds his spiritual home, so to speak.
At last, brother Sirius turns against brother Lupin, each in their animal form. Sirius is wounded, lies by the lake. The black dementors approach the trees---the stone, should be a reference to a touchstone. Hmmm.
Harry unwittingly witnesses his future patronus---a tree/stag/hart/father image.
Harry returns to the site with Hermione and the time turner, and actually projects the patronus. Saves a new trio from the Dementors: Hermione, Sirius and Harry.
Sorry for the long post. I'm looking for a stone in the imagery and trying to capture the thought connections while they race through my cranium.
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Elanor - Dec 4, 2004 5:52 am (#784 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand, that is brilliant! The Black lake, of course it is part of the black process!
Your post reminded me at once this passage of OotP, after the MoM battle and Harry's talk with DD: Harry "walked a short way around the lake, sat down on its bank, sheltered from the gaze of passers-by behind a tangle of shrubs and stared out over the gleaming water, thinking... [...] He sat there for a long time, gazing out at the water, trying not to think about his godfather or to remember that is was directly across from here, on the opposite bank, that Sirius had once collapsed trying to fend off a hundred Dementors..." (p.754)
Here again, the Black Lake is a metaphorical reference to the depressive feelings of Harry after Sirius’ death. We already assumed that Sirius’s death, with all the symbols bound to it we talked about (Sirius Black, the veil symbol, Cornelius Fudge…), represents the end of that black/nigredo process for Harry, and the Black Lake symbol reinforces that. Harry feels depressed but he is on the “opposite bank” of the Lake, he has achieved the crossing of the Black process. He is now ready for the next processes, for his own “elevation” that will allow him to defeat Voldemort. I love that image!
Zelmia, I agree with you about Percy. For now, he had no actions of “sacrifice”, but with such a chivalrous name he may surprise us before the end and do something like that for redeeming himself in his parents’ eyes.
Nathan, I will search what I can find about the cards we didn’t discuss yet and post it tomorrow. I like the idea of the major characters (maybe not only the adults) symbolized by the major arcana cards and the houses, and minor characters, represented by the minor arcana cards.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 4, 2004 11:08 am (#785 of 1121)
Yes, I agree the sextet that fought in the Department of Mysteries are likely to be exceptions to the idea as they have obtained a certain level of enlightenment necessart to be classified among the major arcana.
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Hollywand - Dec 4, 2004 6:09 pm (#786 of 1121)
Looking at the JKR web site today, I realized that the black hairband portkey could be a reference to the Ouroboros. It is a black circle, with a gold band connector. Wouldn't that fit well with some of the imagery we have developed here? A site viewer must travel through the black circle to find the door revealing bits of the mystery. Hmmm.
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Elanor - Dec 5, 2004 12:08 pm (#787 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand, you know this is the kind of thing that would not surprise me at all... And it is black: hmm, well, waiting for news and for the books to be released is a kind of nigredo process for us too... Will it be white after the HBP release? I would love that!
About Tarot, this is what I have found about Temperance. It is the 14th card of the major arcana. It is bound to the Aquarius sign.It comes just after the Death card which represents the Nigredo process, so Temperance represents the albedo, the White Work. This is the symbol of the regeneration of life, the announcement of the rebirth, the purification by water poured from a vase in another one.
If we are right when we say that the end of the Black process takes place at the end of OotP, then the "Temperance" symbol will appear in the HBP. From a long time now, we have assumed that the HBP will be, one way or another, connected to water. This could be a clue leading in that direction too.
The Star card, the 17th, is bound to Venus. It is the same figure as the temperance card but naked and she is pouring the water of her vases in the ocean. It is the symbol of the truth hidden in each thing. She circulates the energies she's got and, therefore, she is the beating, the pulsation of the cosmos. She is surmounted by 7 stars and a double blazing star, red and yellow, the morning and the evening. She is the link between the Earth and Heaven and she gives luck to men. Hence the saying: "to be born under a lucky star".
Well, it is only a suposition, but I see this card representing Hermione very well. The gold and red star, revealing the truth and giving the energy to the trio.
The Moon, the 18th card, is bound to the Cancer sign. High above the Earth, she is lighting it. As the Moon reflects the light of the Sun, the Moon card reflects on the world the real consciousness.
This card could probably be bound to Luna, her name leads us here. It would fit with her faraway way of being present.
The Sun, the 19th card, is bound to the Sun of course. It represents intelligence and consciousness of the cosmos. Its rays are blue, red and yellow, the 3 colours of the Tarot and it lights all the creation, visible and invisible. The Sun overhangs the twins, the Gemini, who represent Rubedo, the Red Work: the "Rebis", the "double thing", the conjunction of the opposites, the Philosopher's stone.
With all the solar symbols we already connected to Harry, I can't see someone else bound to that card. I find the mention of the twins leading to the Philosopher's stone very interesting, just as the 3 colours mentioned which could be another clue leading to the "Harry uniting the houses" theory.
Do you think the same or do you think those symbols can be connected to other characters that these ones?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 5, 2004 6:19 pm (#788 of 1121)
Elanor I agree with your suppositions although, I think that Hermione could also be connected to the Sun card because, it was her knowledge that in PS that enabled successfully pass Snape's Riddle thus allowing Harry to face Quirrel/Voldemort. In CoS Hermione lit Harry's way ultimately leading to his defeat of the Basalisk and Tom Riddle.
I also, would like to propose that the Prophecy given by Trelawney and the destruction of the Orb while, in Neville's possession tend to illustrate that he is represented by the Wheel of Fortune.
On anoter note Hagrid's Birthday is numerologicaly another use of multiples of 3
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zelmia - Dec 5, 2004 8:12 pm (#789 of 1121)
I just knew Hagrid had to be a Sagittarius!
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Hollywand - Dec 5, 2004 9:08 pm (#790 of 1121)
Hagrid's seems to be the thirteenth birthday, and his dates add up to thirteen. Oh dear.....well,...it's probably nothing......not sure wether to count the Weasley twins as a single birthday or two birthdays, dang that JKRowling, she's so slippery.....;-)
I was so looking forward to Voldemort's being the thirteenth birthday......
Elanor, I am really interested in your comments regarding the Tarot. Your remarks about Minerva, the Libran scales of Justice revealing information were salient and wonderful.
Hermione has been given to Virgo, and fits with your remarks about the Star figure. I had not connected the Star and Temperance, so that's a great association to make. May I suggest that Lily may be the counterpart mother figure, Temperance to Hermione's role as Harry's soul mate partner? In this way, the two women (Lily and Hermione) would be nicely linked. I have often thought how both were very talented muggle born witches, with a healthy dose of compassion and strength.
It seems to me that Hermione and Lily's muggle born status will figure prominently in the forthcoming story. I noticed another detail on the JKR website---that in the Book shelf room, both views face out onto the water---could this be a harbinger? I will be so excited if we are correct!!!
Harry and the Sun Card make a lot of sense to me. It's a child-like figure riding on a white horse, correct? The royal son, the white knight, the Albedo---and there's the hippogriff.....
Firey Ron Weasley to Mars, no wonder his room at the Burrow is as hot as a furnace.....
Zelmia, I have an off topic question for you: I read the "Half-Forgotten Friend" thread, which I believe you initiated. Forgive me for being sort of flat-footed, but I always thought Rowling was playing chopsockey with us there----by calling attention to "Half-Forgotten Friend/Riddle" she "was giving you a clue, Sir" by pointing out that "Riddle" was an anagram of Voldemort. Do you see my tragically twisted logic? ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 9:09 am (#791 of 1121)
Hollywand, I am bit lost and confused. How do Hagrid's dates equl 13 could you please explain?
Best Regards, Narhan
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Hollywand - Dec 6, 2004 9:58 am (#792 of 1121)
The site dates run on UK time and calendar, so Hagrid's actual birthday was listed on her site as December 06, and many on the Lexicon wished him a Happy Birthday on the 05--that could be the source of some confusion on his bd--so 06+1+2+04=Yikes.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 11:49 am (#793 of 1121)
Ah I was not factoring in the year when doing my calculations. Also Mare made an interesting connection in the J.K. Rowling website thread.
Mare pointed out that Hagrid birthday falls on the feast day of Saint Nicholas who according to mosy traditions is the figure that Sinter Klaas (Santa Claus) is based upon.
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Elanor - Dec 6, 2004 12:13 pm (#794 of 1121)
Yes! And that is very interesting. I've just posted on the Hagrid's thread that the fact that he was born on St Nicholas' feast is really appropriate. St Nicholas is the patron saint of the children because it is said that, once, he saved 3 children. Those children had had their throat cut of and had been put in a salting-tub by an innkeeper when he rose them from the dead.
Would it be a clue that Hagrid will sometime save our trio from a great danger in the Hog's head? Who knows...
But the most interesting part is certainly that St Nicholas is the one who protects the children and it fits very well with Hagrid. BTW, St Nicholas is often represented with a anchor or a small boat because he is also the patron saint of the boatmen. I thought it was funny...
He is also a Sagittarius, the centaur with a bow who had given his immortality to Prometheus and climbed in the sky after Heracles killed him accidentally. This centaur, named Chiron, had been the teacher of Jason and Achilles because he was very wise. Curious to find a link between the centaurs and Hagrid, isn't it?
If we don't count the year, its birthdate is indeed very bound to the number 3 because we always find some multiples of 3 in it: 6, 12 are multiples of 3, 6+1+2= 9, 3 times 3, even 6+12=18, 3 times 6 and 1+8=9!
Hollywand, I like the idea of Lily being bound to the Temperance card too very much! The lily is a symbol of purity and temperance is bound to purification, so that fits very well!
Nathan, I will search if I can find other details about the Wheel of Fortune.
I just love that clue hunt!
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 9:14 pm (#795 of 1121)
Hollywand, it was not I who started the "Half Forgotten Friend Thread". But I admit now that it had never occured to me that the name "seemed to Harry like a half-forgotten friend" because it was an anagram of "I am Lord Voldemort". Hollywand, you are the cleverest witch of your age to have worked that out! I really admire that about you.
Anyway, I was trying to work out which character corresponds with which card. But first, I wanted to point out that there is, in the Major Arcana, a distinction between The Sun (XIX) and The Star (XVII), which I find interesting. Here are my thoughts so far. BTW, please bear in mind that I am considering the cards in relation the characters as of OP.
The Fool = Not too sure at this point, since they have all begun their respective journeys.
The Magician = I would almost apply this card to Neville. His newfound confidence has given him a renewed appreciation for Magic - and a desire to experiment.
The High Priestess = Luna Lovegood.
The Empress = Molly Weasley
The Emperor = I think Percy Weasley fits this description best.
The Hierophant (Le Pape) = Again, I think this card most closely fits Neville. I am torn about which card to use for Neville. I think he is between the two somehow.
Justice = McGonagall. I agree with Elanor's assessment.
The Hermit = Harry. At least at this point in the saga, with the kind influence of both Luna and Lupin, Harry has become much more introspective by the end of the OP.
Strength = Hermione.
The Hanged Man = Ron. Ron is becoming more mature and I think he's starting to see that there is more at stake than just Malfoy's and/or Snape's comeuppance. Setting aside his personal grudges is, for him, pretty significant and I think an indication that he is poised for the Great Change of the Death card. I think Ron is also expressing his lack of egotism in his more overt relationship with Hermione - whether it's romantic in nature or not, the fact that he often thinks of her first exemplifies his more mature awareness of something beyond his own appetite.
Death = Snape. Funnily enough, it seems to me that he has been stuck in this position for many years. He has made the requisite sacrifice of the Hanged Man, and has accepted the change of Death. But he seems unable to move past the process of changing, if you will.
Temperance = Lupin.
The Devil = Voldemort. His lack of responsibility for his own actions is precisely what this card represents.
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 9:49 pm (#796 of 1121)
The Star = The Twins. They exude a flawless optimism that no other character possesses. And they have indeed realised their hopes and dreams by opening their joke shop.
The Moon = Ginny. While she possesses the same firey strength as Hermione, Ginny is more inclined to whims and fancies; moods, if you will - as evidenced by her variety of beaux.
The Sun = Dumbledore. The Sun is associated with happiness, success, achievement, and security. And so is Dumbledore. He also the embodiment of enlightenment - Magical Nirvana.
I would also apply the Devil to Draco Malfoy.
I have a hard time coming up with a card for Hagrid from the Major Arcana. I think he would be better represented by one of the Knight cards, as would Sirius.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 10:13 pm (#797 of 1121)
Zelmia I am interested to hear your thoughts on the Chariot and the Wheel of Fortune, Judgment, and the Universe (World)
I agree Neville is between several cards at the moment. I also associate Dumbledore with the World card because how effectively he has melded the mental, spiritual, and physical in his being.
With what card would you associate Moody?
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 10:30 pm (#798 of 1121)
Well, I skipped those on purpose Nathan. They were too hard
Actually, I would almost put Draco Malfoy and The Tower together. The Tower was destined to fall. The Tower represents the destruction of a world built on illusion and false pretenses.
I would agree that Dumbledore could be represented by The World.
I think Moody might be represented by Judgement. It is his purpose in life to force people like Lucius Malfoy and the LeStranges to suffer the consequences of their actions.
As for The Chariot and the Wheel of Fortune, I am still pondering those. But I would love to hear what Nathan and others have to say.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 7, 2004 10:05 am (#799 of 1121)
Zelmia, I agree with your assessment with Moody. At this point in the series I am inclined to ascribe the Wheel of Fortune to Neville in light of Trelawney's prophecy and the destruction of the orb containing the record of the oracle. Because, each of those is an illustration of how the wheel spins, the outcome is undecided until the wheel comes to rest.
The Chariot I am still pondering.
Nathan
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Elanor - Dec 7, 2004 1:16 pm (#800 of 1121)
Great work everybody! You know, the more I think about Tarot, the more I believe a same card can represent several characters at different times of their journey, which would fit very well with the alchemical symbols which work like that too. So, a character could be represented by several cards as well.
For example, Zelmia connected Snape to the Death card and I agree with that, but Snape could also be connected to the Chariot card you just mentioned Nathan. The Chariot represents the Lover who has chosen his path, the one of the spirituality but also the one of the war, but the war against himself. This is the card of awareness. For me, Snape has indeed made a choice and he is at war with himself : he is his own most dangerous ennemy.
The Wheel of Fortune includes life and death, chance and fate. It represents the "karma" one has to escape from for finding his own fulfilment. it fits rather well with Neville, that is true! I've just realized that the Wheel of Fortune was the 10th card of the major arcana and it represents a wheel, when we know that the number 10 represents the ouroboros, which is a kind of wheel when it bites its tail! I bet it has nothing to do with chance...
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Is it just me or does the new witch of the month resemble E.T. somewhat? -_-
s Ignatia the female form of Ignatius? There might be a connection between her and Percy's character, whose middle name is Ignatius.
She invented the Floo Powder. Harry first knew about this while staying at the Burrow. I believe Percy was one of the Weasley kids who demonstrated to him how it works (or is this from the movie only?)
Floo Powder is used by wizards as a mode of communication and transportation. When you throw it in the fireplace, it emits a green smoke -- the color of change. I wonder if she stumbled upon this by accident... FLOO POWDER = FOOL POWDER?
In Tarot, The Fool card is Card 0 (zero) in major arcana -- the beginning. The fool is the naive traveller on a quest to learn what the world has to offer. Fool's Powder is a tool for the Fool to go through his journey.
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 2, 2004 11:46 am (#777 of 1121)
I absolutely agree with you, Archangel. She DOES look like E.T., a lot like E.T.! Is that because you can use Floo Powder to "phone home"?
Back to the same article (it was quite an article!), it referred to the uniting role that Air (or Earth) can play between Fire and Water as a "harmonia", which means a seamless union in which each retains its unique identity. It occurs to me that Dumbledore hinted (SS/PS) that music was very important, "A magic beyond all we do here", and his Chocolate Frog card mentioned that he likes Chamber Music (ha ha). When Harry and Voldemort were levitated into the air, it was to the sound of phoenix song. Maybe, somehow, music is going to play some role in the grand climax between Harry and Voldemort!
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Elanor - Dec 2, 2004 12:21 pm (#778 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone!
Just some details you might find interesting:
- the smith: he is the symbol of the idea of transformation. Hence he is the first alchemist, the more because the metal he warps is black at the beginning and then becomes red and after that white. These are the colours of the Great Work and, which is interesting those colours are here in the same order than we see them appear in the "rebirthing scene". Hmmm...
- Ignacia Wildsmith: I think Ignacia comes from the Latin root "ign" which means fire: ignesco means "to catch fire", ignitus, a "blazing, full of fire", and ignis simply "fire"... She is connected with the smith we just talked about, and Hephaistos was also the master of the Fire... A fiery temperament for sure!
- The fool: some times ago, we spoke about the Fool card in tarot that RPS was associating maybe with Peeves. As I wrote then, "the Fool represents the wanderer and the king’s fool too, that is to say the one who researches the truth and also the one who is free to say everything. In that way, his madness is, in fact, superior wisdom. What is curious is that the Fool is the card 0 but it can also be named the card 22, that is to say that it is at the beginning and at the end of the Arcana. It also represents the infinite cycle of creation (22 coming to 0 again). Peeves is a mystery and, through his madness, he may reveal us some interesting clues."
Now that I reread that, it makes me think that the Fool is another ouroboros symbol, in his own way.
I like your idea of the Fool Powder, Archangel! If we see the Fool as the one who searches truth, then we might see the Fool/Floo powder as the tool for Harry for searching the truth too. The first time he travels by Floo Powder, he learns some truth about the Malfoys. He spoke to Sirius thanks to the Floo Powder searching for the truth, in GoF and OotP. And, at the end of OotP, when he spoke to Kreacher he assumed he was hearing the truth. It wasn't, but it led him to discover the truth about the prophecy.
Does it make sense? I can't remember for now the other times Harry used the Floo powder that might be relevant and, that is foolish indeed, I still have some work to do for school tomorrow so I can't search for them now but I'll try and think about other ones for tomorrow!
Edit: I was writting while you posted again RPS! You're right, music will certainly be important in the next books. Alchemists used it a lot too as another secret language. If I remember well, we talked about it some weeks ago. It was about the Mimbulus Mimbletonia and its possible healing music I think.
Edit again: I found it! It was on october the 27th! This is the link: music
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 2, 2004 10:27 pm (#779 of 1121)
Something struck me about Bill Weasley's birthday is given as being the 28 November (28/11) and when the four digits that make up the number of the month and day asre added together the sum equals 12.
Also some interesting associations came to light when I looked a the birthdates for Harry, Hermione, Ron and Neville
Harry's birthday is 31 July (31/07). 3+1+0+7 = 11. In the modern Tarot the eleventh card of the major arcana is either Strength or Justice depending on the deck being used
Hermione's birthday is 19 September (19/09). 1+9+0+9 = 19. In the modern Tarot the nineteenth card of the major arcana is The Sun
Ron's Birthday is 1 March (01/03) 0+1+0+3 = 4. In the modern Tarot the fourth card of the major arcana is The Emperor
Neville's birthday 30 July (30/07). 3+0+0+7 = 10. In the modern Tarot the tenth card of the major arcana is the Wheel of Fortune
Fred and George Also hbirthday is 1 April (01/04). 0+1+0+4 =5. In the modern Tarot the fifth card of the major arcana is the Hierophant(Pope). One of the representations of the pope is of a person acts a spiritual guide and someone who adheres to a tradition and ritualism. In much the same way as Fred and George perceive themselves as the successors to the Marauders.
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Elanor - Dec 3, 2004 12:36 pm (#780 of 1121)
That is curious indeed Nathan!
If you search for the 10 first numbers meaning according to alchemy, then :
- Harry is bound to the number 2, 1+1, (the pair of opposites symbol!)
- Hermione to the number 10, 1+9, or, that is the same thing, the number 1 (the ouroboros)
- Ron to the number 4 (the balance of the 4 elements, humours...)
- Neville to the number 10 or 1 as Hermione (the ouroboros)
- Fred and George to the number 5 (the unity of the Work and the spiritual unity of the creation through the Quintessence symbol)
BTW, if we try with Harry's complete birthday, 3+1+0+7+1+9+8+0=29, 2+9=11, 1+1=2, we fins the same number 2!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 3, 2004 9:11 pm (#781 of 1121)
Elanor that is interesting indeed. One of the reason I found the connection fascinating is because, I have often thought of Harry and Moody as being the male aspect of Justice.
Ginny's birthday is 11 August (11/08) 1+1+0+8 =10. I wonder is it possible that Ginny is the female counterpart to Neville
Percy's birthday is 22 August (22/08). 2+2+0+8 = 12. The twelfth card in the modern Tarot is the Hanged Man which is appropriate given Percy's attitude in books three four and five. Now on to some other questions. I have some other questions I would like to put before the assembly.
First, the majority of major arcana cards have been discussed at some point or other but, there are several that have not been discussed namely the Moon, the Star, the sun Temperance. Are there any ideas about what figures have reached those points.
Second, the associations made by Elanor between the elements and the suits tend to lend themselves to the four houses. Is it possible then that in general the suits of the minor arcana represent the students at Hogwarts with possible exceptions of the Sextet that fought at the DoM while, the Trumps of the Major Arcana represent the adult figures?
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zelmia - Dec 3, 2004 10:53 pm (#782 of 1121)
The thing about The Hanged Man is that he chooses sacrifice - to sacrifice himself, as it were. It is a card that represents being poised in a position of change, the next card being Death. But the key is that it is a conscious choice the querant makes.
While Percy is indeed in a bit of a precarious position, I disagree slightly that he has made a conscious decision of "sacrifice". Percy is where he is at present due to his own arrogance.
I like the idea of the Major Arcana corresponding to the Adult figures in the saga. Although, there are several younger characters who have already attained a certain level of enlightenment/awareness/knowledge, etc.
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Hollywand - Dec 3, 2004 11:42 pm (#783 of 1121)
Elanor, your comments about the Fountain of the Magical Bretheren, the tree and the stone just a few posts earlier, left me, uh, pardon the pun, pondering. ;-)
It dawned on me that the Lake at Hogwarts is called Black Lake, and so, a metaphorical reference to depression and nigredo.
In a sense, Harry's first separation from Sirius is at Black Lake, and a harbinger of Sirius' death and Harry's psychological suffering---I am stunned I didn't see this before. Rowling has referenced black on black so many times, she must be stunned that we don't see the reference. Hah.
Sirius almost passes through the Veil at this juncture---and the Dementors are set to extract his soul---I always hate to call it a kiss, as I associate this gesture with affection and not death.
Harry is alone with Sirius at the edge of the lake (this is such a strong metaphor for tending to someone who is very ill). Sirus has just defended the trio from both Lupin and Severus---so Lupin, Severus and Sirius are a trio at this juncture as well. Wow.
All of the wizards have been party to the intense internal conflict. Sirius appears to wound Ron, Harry and Hermione pursue Sirius to kill the dog and save Ron, Wormtail betrays everyone, Severus betrays Lupin and Sirius, the trio attack Severus. Why, it's a wizard slug fest! A veritable alchemical soup! Yikes!
The Wormtail/Harry Potter life debt is forged. Harry bonds with Sirius, and is truly adopted. He finds his spiritual home, so to speak.
At last, brother Sirius turns against brother Lupin, each in their animal form. Sirius is wounded, lies by the lake. The black dementors approach the trees---the stone, should be a reference to a touchstone. Hmmm.
Harry unwittingly witnesses his future patronus---a tree/stag/hart/father image.
Harry returns to the site with Hermione and the time turner, and actually projects the patronus. Saves a new trio from the Dementors: Hermione, Sirius and Harry.
Sorry for the long post. I'm looking for a stone in the imagery and trying to capture the thought connections while they race through my cranium.
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Elanor - Dec 4, 2004 5:52 am (#784 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand, that is brilliant! The Black lake, of course it is part of the black process!
Your post reminded me at once this passage of OotP, after the MoM battle and Harry's talk with DD: Harry "walked a short way around the lake, sat down on its bank, sheltered from the gaze of passers-by behind a tangle of shrubs and stared out over the gleaming water, thinking... [...] He sat there for a long time, gazing out at the water, trying not to think about his godfather or to remember that is was directly across from here, on the opposite bank, that Sirius had once collapsed trying to fend off a hundred Dementors..." (p.754)
Here again, the Black Lake is a metaphorical reference to the depressive feelings of Harry after Sirius’ death. We already assumed that Sirius’s death, with all the symbols bound to it we talked about (Sirius Black, the veil symbol, Cornelius Fudge…), represents the end of that black/nigredo process for Harry, and the Black Lake symbol reinforces that. Harry feels depressed but he is on the “opposite bank” of the Lake, he has achieved the crossing of the Black process. He is now ready for the next processes, for his own “elevation” that will allow him to defeat Voldemort. I love that image!
Zelmia, I agree with you about Percy. For now, he had no actions of “sacrifice”, but with such a chivalrous name he may surprise us before the end and do something like that for redeeming himself in his parents’ eyes.
Nathan, I will search what I can find about the cards we didn’t discuss yet and post it tomorrow. I like the idea of the major characters (maybe not only the adults) symbolized by the major arcana cards and the houses, and minor characters, represented by the minor arcana cards.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 4, 2004 11:08 am (#785 of 1121)
Yes, I agree the sextet that fought in the Department of Mysteries are likely to be exceptions to the idea as they have obtained a certain level of enlightenment necessart to be classified among the major arcana.
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Hollywand - Dec 4, 2004 6:09 pm (#786 of 1121)
Looking at the JKR web site today, I realized that the black hairband portkey could be a reference to the Ouroboros. It is a black circle, with a gold band connector. Wouldn't that fit well with some of the imagery we have developed here? A site viewer must travel through the black circle to find the door revealing bits of the mystery. Hmmm.
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Elanor - Dec 5, 2004 12:08 pm (#787 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand, you know this is the kind of thing that would not surprise me at all... And it is black: hmm, well, waiting for news and for the books to be released is a kind of nigredo process for us too... Will it be white after the HBP release? I would love that!
About Tarot, this is what I have found about Temperance. It is the 14th card of the major arcana. It is bound to the Aquarius sign.It comes just after the Death card which represents the Nigredo process, so Temperance represents the albedo, the White Work. This is the symbol of the regeneration of life, the announcement of the rebirth, the purification by water poured from a vase in another one.
If we are right when we say that the end of the Black process takes place at the end of OotP, then the "Temperance" symbol will appear in the HBP. From a long time now, we have assumed that the HBP will be, one way or another, connected to water. This could be a clue leading in that direction too.
The Star card, the 17th, is bound to Venus. It is the same figure as the temperance card but naked and she is pouring the water of her vases in the ocean. It is the symbol of the truth hidden in each thing. She circulates the energies she's got and, therefore, she is the beating, the pulsation of the cosmos. She is surmounted by 7 stars and a double blazing star, red and yellow, the morning and the evening. She is the link between the Earth and Heaven and she gives luck to men. Hence the saying: "to be born under a lucky star".
Well, it is only a suposition, but I see this card representing Hermione very well. The gold and red star, revealing the truth and giving the energy to the trio.
The Moon, the 18th card, is bound to the Cancer sign. High above the Earth, she is lighting it. As the Moon reflects the light of the Sun, the Moon card reflects on the world the real consciousness.
This card could probably be bound to Luna, her name leads us here. It would fit with her faraway way of being present.
The Sun, the 19th card, is bound to the Sun of course. It represents intelligence and consciousness of the cosmos. Its rays are blue, red and yellow, the 3 colours of the Tarot and it lights all the creation, visible and invisible. The Sun overhangs the twins, the Gemini, who represent Rubedo, the Red Work: the "Rebis", the "double thing", the conjunction of the opposites, the Philosopher's stone.
With all the solar symbols we already connected to Harry, I can't see someone else bound to that card. I find the mention of the twins leading to the Philosopher's stone very interesting, just as the 3 colours mentioned which could be another clue leading to the "Harry uniting the houses" theory.
Do you think the same or do you think those symbols can be connected to other characters that these ones?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 5, 2004 6:19 pm (#788 of 1121)
Elanor I agree with your suppositions although, I think that Hermione could also be connected to the Sun card because, it was her knowledge that in PS that enabled successfully pass Snape's Riddle thus allowing Harry to face Quirrel/Voldemort. In CoS Hermione lit Harry's way ultimately leading to his defeat of the Basalisk and Tom Riddle.
I also, would like to propose that the Prophecy given by Trelawney and the destruction of the Orb while, in Neville's possession tend to illustrate that he is represented by the Wheel of Fortune.
On anoter note Hagrid's Birthday is numerologicaly another use of multiples of 3
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zelmia - Dec 5, 2004 8:12 pm (#789 of 1121)
I just knew Hagrid had to be a Sagittarius!
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Hollywand - Dec 5, 2004 9:08 pm (#790 of 1121)
Hagrid's seems to be the thirteenth birthday, and his dates add up to thirteen. Oh dear.....well,...it's probably nothing......not sure wether to count the Weasley twins as a single birthday or two birthdays, dang that JKRowling, she's so slippery.....;-)
I was so looking forward to Voldemort's being the thirteenth birthday......
Elanor, I am really interested in your comments regarding the Tarot. Your remarks about Minerva, the Libran scales of Justice revealing information were salient and wonderful.
Hermione has been given to Virgo, and fits with your remarks about the Star figure. I had not connected the Star and Temperance, so that's a great association to make. May I suggest that Lily may be the counterpart mother figure, Temperance to Hermione's role as Harry's soul mate partner? In this way, the two women (Lily and Hermione) would be nicely linked. I have often thought how both were very talented muggle born witches, with a healthy dose of compassion and strength.
It seems to me that Hermione and Lily's muggle born status will figure prominently in the forthcoming story. I noticed another detail on the JKR website---that in the Book shelf room, both views face out onto the water---could this be a harbinger? I will be so excited if we are correct!!!
Harry and the Sun Card make a lot of sense to me. It's a child-like figure riding on a white horse, correct? The royal son, the white knight, the Albedo---and there's the hippogriff.....
Firey Ron Weasley to Mars, no wonder his room at the Burrow is as hot as a furnace.....
Zelmia, I have an off topic question for you: I read the "Half-Forgotten Friend" thread, which I believe you initiated. Forgive me for being sort of flat-footed, but I always thought Rowling was playing chopsockey with us there----by calling attention to "Half-Forgotten Friend/Riddle" she "was giving you a clue, Sir" by pointing out that "Riddle" was an anagram of Voldemort. Do you see my tragically twisted logic? ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 9:09 am (#791 of 1121)
Hollywand, I am bit lost and confused. How do Hagrid's dates equl 13 could you please explain?
Best Regards, Narhan
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Hollywand - Dec 6, 2004 9:58 am (#792 of 1121)
The site dates run on UK time and calendar, so Hagrid's actual birthday was listed on her site as December 06, and many on the Lexicon wished him a Happy Birthday on the 05--that could be the source of some confusion on his bd--so 06+1+2+04=Yikes.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 11:49 am (#793 of 1121)
Ah I was not factoring in the year when doing my calculations. Also Mare made an interesting connection in the J.K. Rowling website thread.
Mare pointed out that Hagrid birthday falls on the feast day of Saint Nicholas who according to mosy traditions is the figure that Sinter Klaas (Santa Claus) is based upon.
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Elanor - Dec 6, 2004 12:13 pm (#794 of 1121)
Yes! And that is very interesting. I've just posted on the Hagrid's thread that the fact that he was born on St Nicholas' feast is really appropriate. St Nicholas is the patron saint of the children because it is said that, once, he saved 3 children. Those children had had their throat cut of and had been put in a salting-tub by an innkeeper when he rose them from the dead.
Would it be a clue that Hagrid will sometime save our trio from a great danger in the Hog's head? Who knows...
But the most interesting part is certainly that St Nicholas is the one who protects the children and it fits very well with Hagrid. BTW, St Nicholas is often represented with a anchor or a small boat because he is also the patron saint of the boatmen. I thought it was funny...
He is also a Sagittarius, the centaur with a bow who had given his immortality to Prometheus and climbed in the sky after Heracles killed him accidentally. This centaur, named Chiron, had been the teacher of Jason and Achilles because he was very wise. Curious to find a link between the centaurs and Hagrid, isn't it?
If we don't count the year, its birthdate is indeed very bound to the number 3 because we always find some multiples of 3 in it: 6, 12 are multiples of 3, 6+1+2= 9, 3 times 3, even 6+12=18, 3 times 6 and 1+8=9!
Hollywand, I like the idea of Lily being bound to the Temperance card too very much! The lily is a symbol of purity and temperance is bound to purification, so that fits very well!
Nathan, I will search if I can find other details about the Wheel of Fortune.
I just love that clue hunt!
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 9:14 pm (#795 of 1121)
Hollywand, it was not I who started the "Half Forgotten Friend Thread". But I admit now that it had never occured to me that the name "seemed to Harry like a half-forgotten friend" because it was an anagram of "I am Lord Voldemort". Hollywand, you are the cleverest witch of your age to have worked that out! I really admire that about you.
Anyway, I was trying to work out which character corresponds with which card. But first, I wanted to point out that there is, in the Major Arcana, a distinction between The Sun (XIX) and The Star (XVII), which I find interesting. Here are my thoughts so far. BTW, please bear in mind that I am considering the cards in relation the characters as of OP.
The Fool = Not too sure at this point, since they have all begun their respective journeys.
The Magician = I would almost apply this card to Neville. His newfound confidence has given him a renewed appreciation for Magic - and a desire to experiment.
The High Priestess = Luna Lovegood.
The Empress = Molly Weasley
The Emperor = I think Percy Weasley fits this description best.
The Hierophant (Le Pape) = Again, I think this card most closely fits Neville. I am torn about which card to use for Neville. I think he is between the two somehow.
Justice = McGonagall. I agree with Elanor's assessment.
The Hermit = Harry. At least at this point in the saga, with the kind influence of both Luna and Lupin, Harry has become much more introspective by the end of the OP.
Strength = Hermione.
The Hanged Man = Ron. Ron is becoming more mature and I think he's starting to see that there is more at stake than just Malfoy's and/or Snape's comeuppance. Setting aside his personal grudges is, for him, pretty significant and I think an indication that he is poised for the Great Change of the Death card. I think Ron is also expressing his lack of egotism in his more overt relationship with Hermione - whether it's romantic in nature or not, the fact that he often thinks of her first exemplifies his more mature awareness of something beyond his own appetite.
Death = Snape. Funnily enough, it seems to me that he has been stuck in this position for many years. He has made the requisite sacrifice of the Hanged Man, and has accepted the change of Death. But he seems unable to move past the process of changing, if you will.
Temperance = Lupin.
The Devil = Voldemort. His lack of responsibility for his own actions is precisely what this card represents.
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 9:49 pm (#796 of 1121)
The Star = The Twins. They exude a flawless optimism that no other character possesses. And they have indeed realised their hopes and dreams by opening their joke shop.
The Moon = Ginny. While she possesses the same firey strength as Hermione, Ginny is more inclined to whims and fancies; moods, if you will - as evidenced by her variety of beaux.
The Sun = Dumbledore. The Sun is associated with happiness, success, achievement, and security. And so is Dumbledore. He also the embodiment of enlightenment - Magical Nirvana.
I would also apply the Devil to Draco Malfoy.
I have a hard time coming up with a card for Hagrid from the Major Arcana. I think he would be better represented by one of the Knight cards, as would Sirius.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 10:13 pm (#797 of 1121)
Zelmia I am interested to hear your thoughts on the Chariot and the Wheel of Fortune, Judgment, and the Universe (World)
I agree Neville is between several cards at the moment. I also associate Dumbledore with the World card because how effectively he has melded the mental, spiritual, and physical in his being.
With what card would you associate Moody?
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zelmia - Dec 6, 2004 10:30 pm (#798 of 1121)
Well, I skipped those on purpose Nathan. They were too hard
Actually, I would almost put Draco Malfoy and The Tower together. The Tower was destined to fall. The Tower represents the destruction of a world built on illusion and false pretenses.
I would agree that Dumbledore could be represented by The World.
I think Moody might be represented by Judgement. It is his purpose in life to force people like Lucius Malfoy and the LeStranges to suffer the consequences of their actions.
As for The Chariot and the Wheel of Fortune, I am still pondering those. But I would love to hear what Nathan and others have to say.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 7, 2004 10:05 am (#799 of 1121)
Zelmia, I agree with your assessment with Moody. At this point in the series I am inclined to ascribe the Wheel of Fortune to Neville in light of Trelawney's prophecy and the destruction of the orb containing the record of the oracle. Because, each of those is an illustration of how the wheel spins, the outcome is undecided until the wheel comes to rest.
The Chariot I am still pondering.
Nathan
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Elanor - Dec 7, 2004 1:16 pm (#800 of 1121)
Great work everybody! You know, the more I think about Tarot, the more I believe a same card can represent several characters at different times of their journey, which would fit very well with the alchemical symbols which work like that too. So, a character could be represented by several cards as well.
For example, Zelmia connected Snape to the Death card and I agree with that, but Snape could also be connected to the Chariot card you just mentioned Nathan. The Chariot represents the Lover who has chosen his path, the one of the spirituality but also the one of the war, but the war against himself. This is the card of awareness. For me, Snape has indeed made a choice and he is at war with himself : he is his own most dangerous ennemy.
The Wheel of Fortune includes life and death, chance and fate. It represents the "karma" one has to escape from for finding his own fulfilment. it fits rather well with Neville, that is true! I've just realized that the Wheel of Fortune was the 10th card of the major arcana and it represents a wheel, when we know that the number 10 represents the ouroboros, which is a kind of wheel when it bites its tail! I bet it has nothing to do with chance...
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 801 to 825)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:07 am
Elanor - Dec 8, 2004 12:46 pm (#801 of 1121)
Coming back to what we said about the numbers bound to the characters, I have searched more details concerning the number 2, the number we connected to Harry through his birthday (3+1+0+7=11, 1+1=2 and 3+1+7+1+9+8+0=29, 2+9=11, 1+1=2).
In alchemy, the number 2 refers to the duality, the couple of opposites, as are the yin and the yang in the Far East. The two natures, masculine and feminine, positive and negative, active and passive can be seen in the mineral kingdom as well.
We should maybe add the Wizarding World to that list, whose duality can be seen through Harry and Voldemort.
But in alchemy, no value is absolute and the masculine has some feminine traces, as the feminine has some masculine traces too.
If we apply that theory to Harry and Voldemort, that means that there are some traces of Voldemort in Harry, which we already know (parseltongue...) but also that there are traces of Harry in Voldemort. We don't know about those traces yet but they are certainly very important for the story.
Now, Jo told us that we should think why Voldemort survived when the AK curse rebounded: should it be because at the same time he gave something from him to Harry, he received something from Harry too? Hence the "equal" the prophecy taks about, the equality is at that moment reciprocal.
But Voldemort took Harry's blood for his rebirth: there is no equality anymore, the "Harry's part" in Voldemort has become greater than the "Voldemort's part" in Harry, though we can not see the consequences of that for now, but will be what will allow Harry to vanquish Voldemort for good.
Does it help us? I don't know, but I think it is coherent with what we already found. What do you think about it?
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Hollywand - Dec 8, 2004 10:03 pm (#802 of 1121)
Hi Elanor and Zelmia, I wanted to reply that I find the discussion of the Tarot card equivalents very interesting, but I don't know enough about the Tarot to make any sort of meaningful associations with the characters.
And Zelmia, thanks for your kind words. I love this thread and the people that contribute to it. The comments are so thoughtful and enriching. And perhaps (ohmy!) controversial. Hah.
I can't wait for the end of the semester so I can reread the series with a new alchemist's perspective. I think that, as a group, we have uncovered some powerful underlying themes in the series, and yes, I believe they are definitely intended by Rowling and woven into the imagery. Lumos!
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Archangel - Dec 9, 2004 3:58 am (#803 of 1121)
"...I believe a same card can represent several characters at different times of their journey, which would fit very well with the alchemical symbols which work like that too. So, a character could be represented by several cards as well. " - Elanor
I agree with this. This is why it's so hard and tricky to just limit a card to one character because the cards can be interpreted in so many ways depending on their position, timing, etc., and the characters in HP are so dynamic that not only do they grow but their relationships with other people and their surroundings change as well.
Interesting though, in Tarot the Fool card is counted as 0 and the World card is 21, instead of being 1 and 22. I guess it's one way of saying from nothing comes something... The World card represents completion and yet signifies the beginning of another journey. It is the Ouroboros.
I'm wondering if JKR uses the sequence of the major arcana as a sort of milestone in each of the book and not just as a representation of a character. This way, each book is a journey and we have themes and roles that more or less stay the same even though the characters espousing those themes and acting those roles are not same ones in the other books. This can also explain the independence/continuity "feel" that I get from this series -- meaning each book can be appreciated on its own and be meaningful by its lonesome, but I, as a reader, know that it's a part of a series -- a bigger and longer journey.
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Elanor - Dec 9, 2004 12:25 pm (#804 of 1121)
Very interesting Archangel! This gives a new prospect to the study of the major arcana symbols.
Some characters seems more bound to a single card, as McGonagall and the Justice card, but this could come from the fact that her "role" in each book and in the entire series don't change a lot. She is a pillar in Hogwarts' and Harry's life, and pillars don't move.
But the main characters, the ones on their journey, can be bound to several cards as they move on that path.
I have just read that, if you put those 22 cards in a certain order, you find the entire cosmogony of the alchemists, that is to say their conception of the universe: the chaos, the fire as a creator, the division of the materia prima in 4 elements... In these cards are also the main themes of the alchemical thinking: the solar symbolism, the knowledge by inspiration, the dualism (feminine and masculine, which leads to every couple of opposites), the evil and the fall. The same underlying themes that we find in Jo's work too.
Hollywand, I think it is a great idea to reread the entire series in that perspective! I wanted to reread PS at least during the holidays, it would be great if we all would share our thoughts about those rereadings, what do you think? Anyone else interested in doing that?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 9, 2004 12:54 pm (#805 of 1121)
I agree among the characters that moves among cards with more ease is Harry because, while he currently rests at the Hermit I find that he is also a male personification of the Justice card.
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Hollywand - Dec 9, 2004 4:44 pm (#806 of 1121)
I would love to do an alchemist's read along--any ideas for how we could manage that? Should we go off line into a private forum for the discussion? What about book Six?
I am wondering if Jo will surprise us a little earlier and give us some tidbit on 12/22/04---it will be the longest night, the shortest day, a perfect time to tease us!
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Elanor - Dec 10, 2004 12:14 pm (#807 of 1121)
Hi everyone! Have you seen that Jo updated her site today? I have not had the time to read all the new stuff yet but I loved what she wrote about Harry and Voldemort's wands:
"It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort's wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from 'holy') repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousands years old), can symbolize both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous."
And I remembered what we said some weeks ago about those wands and their meaning as alchemists connected yew and holly to Saturn. It was in the posts 746-748 and I was saying:
“Saturn is the symbol of a power of destruction, the old man, image of sterility. But it can also refer to the youth of the world and to a spiritual rebirth, since, after being drove out by Jupiter, he made a long journey to the Fortunate Islands. If we apply this symbol to both Harry and Voldemort then Voldemort is the old man, the destruction and Harry his opposite, the youth of the world, the light, the hope.”
We were very close, weren’t we? I'm so happy about this! Thanks Jo!
About the PS reading, maybe we could do it on this thread, on an informal way, just putting what we found the more relevant in this perspective, and that as much as possible people can join the discussion. What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 10, 2004 1:29 pm (#808 of 1121)
Elanor also the assignment of woods based on birthdates was quite interesting. This is a website I found on sacred woods.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It is also notable that each of the trio's wands contains one of the three cores used by Mr. Ollivander.
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Archangel - Dec 10, 2004 9:32 pm (#809 of 1121)
JKR posted a lot of new info today, the most interesting for me is the thing about wands esp. Hermione's. Hermione has a vine wood wand with a dragon heartstring core.
"IVY / VINE The Ivy was sacred to Osiris as well as to Dionysus. Vine and Ivy come next to each other at the turn of the year, and are jointly dedicated to resurrection. Presumably, this is because they are the only two trees that grow spirally. The Vine also symbolizes resurrection because its strength is preserved in the wine. ASPECTS: (VINE) Joy, Exhilaration, Wrath, Rebirth. (IVY) Fidelity, Constancy, Love, Intoxication. "
Harry will conquer Voldemort's death wand through his "Holy" wand. Would it be up to Hermione's wand to bring him back to life being associated to rebirth and love?
As for her wand core, I kept thinking of it being associated to Draco (the Dragon!). I find it interesting that when Hermione confronted Draco, she never used magic but used her physical abilities. Now why is that?
If you're interested in other tree associations, you might find these links useful: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Elanor - Dec 11, 2004 8:11 am (#810 of 1121)
This is very interesting indeed Nathan and Archangel!
First, I think that the fact that "each of the trio's wands contains one of the three cores used by Mr. Ollivander" fits really well with the triad symbol we already connected to the trio, that is to say the 3 principles of alchemy (mercury, sulfur and salt) which are different but one at the same time.
More, the way Jo says it is very interesting, she says: "Harry, Ron and Hermione unite the 3 Ollivander wand cores". I can't help but think to the 3 alchemical principles again who have to unite to give the Philosopher's stone. Those 3 principles are an image of the world for the alchemists, which was divided in "corpus, anima et spiritus", the body, the soul, the spirit: a nice metaphor for wands cores too, don't you think so?
What you have found about Vine is great Archangel! I also found that the Vine was one of the plants used for symbolizing virtues. It represents temperance. I've searched what we had said about the temperance card in tarot: "This is the symbol of the regeneration of life, the announcement of the rebirth, the purification by water poured from a vase in another one." The symbols complement one another perfectly!
It could be also connected to the alchemical symbols about the wine and alcohol: the wine as the "elixir of life", the water of life, the water that burns. Here again, we find the symbols of rebirth and resurrection. How interesting is it that it's Hermione's wand that is connected to that symbol!
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Hollywand - Dec 11, 2004 9:01 am (#811 of 1121)
Congratulations to all of you above on some great contributions; I think we will very much enjoy deciphering the symbolism in the forthcoming books due to everyone's insights! Fantastic work!
A toast?
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zelmia - Dec 11, 2004 3:24 pm (#812 of 1121)
The only toasts I know I don't know how to spell! (ha!) So are we doing the re-read? Are we starting off the new year by doing that or are we doing it now?
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Archangel - Dec 11, 2004 6:17 pm (#813 of 1121)
In my country, we say "Saludo!"
Count me in the re-read! I can't wait for Book 6 and continue this journey!
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Hollywand - Dec 11, 2004 8:27 pm (#814 of 1121)
HaHa, What a great group of people! Did I mention that "stoat" is an anagram of "toast": must be the key...... ;-)
Does anyone have suggestions on how to progress a group read? Should we do an synopsis of , say, four of chapters at a time and discuss? Should we have a specific time we can all "meet" online and have a group discussion? That would be exciting! Weekends would be good for me....I have the next two weeks free and plan to dive head first into the Philosopher's Stone after I finish this email.
If we read as a group, we should be comfortably through the five books by May and really stoked for Book Six....Yeee Haaa.
Elanor, I loved your connection with Hermione and the Wine/Vine relationship. I made that association as well. The puzzle pieces are falling into place......it's so exciting.
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Solitaire - Dec 11, 2004 9:33 pm (#815 of 1121)
How about Harry and Hermione--as in the Holly and the Ivy? Does this indicate another adventure for the two of them together? Here is another link, too, about Yule and the Solstice. It mentions the trees and symbols, as well.
While I don't contribute much to this thread (I'm kind of lost on a lot of it), I do follow it. Zelmia, you mentioned the Fool and not knowing which character that would be, as most had begun their journeys. How about Draco? Has he begun his journey yet, or is this something that will commence in Book 6? Could he be the Fool? Just a thought ...
Elanor, do you suppose Madame Rosmerta sells Wassail at Christmastime? Also, I think Wassail parties sound perfect for Hogwarts! ;-)
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 11, 2004 9:55 pm (#816 of 1121)
Solitaire those ideas have potential. Draco could be the Fool because, his character has not developed or evolved in any signifcant way.
I think that there may be more adventures that involve Harry and Hermione as a duo that will have the same effect as their adventure in PoA.
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Archangel - Dec 12, 2004 2:27 am (#817 of 1121)
Solitaire, that is a very interesting observation. Draco seems stuck, doesn't he? For a character that gets a lot of "page time", his appearance seem to follow the "insult or irritate Hermione - brag about being a pure-blood/family connections/money - lose Quidditch match to Harry and find ways to get back at Scar-head - get stunned/hexed while on the Hogwarts Express at end of school year" routine. Hopefully in Book 6, we read something different about Ferret Boy. Having a title that bears his name looks promising already.
*****************************************
I observed an interesting characteristic of a vine. Its strength is deceiving! A lot of people underestimate it because its "branches" are so slender and it doesn't grow upright and on its own like normal trees. However, once it spreads out and the support is in place, it's actually very, very sturdy. I've been to old church ruins here and it's interesting that their pillars and walls have vines crawling all over them and I think in some way that has prevented the whole thing from coming down.
Hermione is somewhat like this. The DEs in MoM underestimated her magical abilities and this contributed to their failure in attaining the prophecy. Umbridge underestimated her cunning and acting ability and she was blindly led to the forest right under the thundering hooves of the centaurs. Her character has changed a lot from being just a bookworm to being pro-active enough to use her knowledge to advance causes that she believes in (e.g. SPEW, DA, etc.) Throughout the series, even if Hermione is not with Harry in the final battles physically, it cannot be denied that she has always been there for him -- helping him prepare for the tasks, searching for clues, etc. I'm not sure if Harry realizes this by now but without Hermione, he would have been dead as early as his first Quidditch match!
As much as I would like to read another H&H adventure, I get this feeling that somehow JKR might spring a surprise and break that bond (or at least separate the real "dream team" of the series) in Book 6 to disastrous results with the intention of making Harry realize what a luxury and privilege it is to have "the brightest witch of their age" by your side.
BTW, although I'm thinking and feeling that this might happen, if this indeed happens, I'd go like this for 10 minutes and then promptly set up a fortune telling shop.
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Elanor - Dec 12, 2004 12:35 pm (#818 of 1121)
Great ideas everyone! We have already seen a lot of clues binding Harry and Hermione together in the fight againt Voldemort, it is brilliant that their wands connect too symbolically. She was always there for Harry, even if sometimes he didn't understand her (as for the firebolt episode) and I believe she will be till the end. (Er... if you set up a fortune telling shop Archangel, will you give a reduction to the forumers? )
Solitaire, LOL! Wassail seems to be perfect for Mrs Rosemerta's pub indeed!
Hollywand,we could begin that reread during the Christmas holidays. What if we would begin on next weekend? Or is there another date that would suit all of you better?
About the toast, here we say "à votre santé!" **raising my glass to all the forumers**
EDIT: I almost forgotten! it is Charlie's birthday today: the 12th of the 12th month of 1972. In French we pronounce "72", sixty-twelve. (Great year to be born BTW, he, he, he! I'm very happy to share my year of birth with a Weasley boy!). Anyway, all this 12 make me think that we can expect great things from him in the future. The more because he is very bound to fire and red symbols (working with dragons, red ahir, a LOT of freckles...). Go Charlie!
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 1:05 pm (#819 of 1121)
Gryffindor
Um, I already devoured the First Book again. I'm not sure how we can do the re-read congruently. I'm about to begin the Second, probably will have devoured that by Monday. Hmmm. Apologies, I find the books impossible to put down once I get to reading them, I swear they are charmed by a very clever witch.......
I saw even more references to alchemy, and some surprising details I had not absorbed before, such as:
I found it curious that we begin "below Zero"--that is, from the perspective of Vernon, the most clueless person of the series. Petunia, to me, seems much more willfully blind, however, that even Vernon, as he seems as some junctures to just want to resolve his issues by abandoning Harry.
Harry begins from an angle of repose, under the stairs, wishing for a watch to mark time. One of the first mentions of him clothing himself is to pull a spider from his socks.
The letters and the countdown seem to have self-referential sequences in the book: four, seven, twelve, are repeated over and over in the time, the address, the message.
Harry's primary positive identification with his looks begin with his scar. His scar is described quite positively in several key passages of the book. Dumbledore and Ollivander imply in separate comments that the wand, Voldemort's wand is responsible for the scar.Dumbledore is quite positive toward the scar as well, mentions his own scar.
Our first encounter with a mirror metaphor is the transparent glass between the boa and Harry. Harry identifies with the snakes captivity and alienation; his compassion awakens the snake, and he sets it free---sets it upon Dudley in his anger. The snake here, perhaps a reference to mercury.
The second mirror metaphor is Ollivander,silver, moon-like eyes with automatic measuring tape seems to really be testing Harry's core before offering the final wand.Ollivander seems to be a key silver rite of passage to wizarding.
Clear distinctions in Harry's internal evaluations of potential friends---Malfoy is assessed, and the barriers go up. Ron is assessed, and the bonds are forged.
Hermione is bound to purple--she walks through a purple flame, is stunned in OOtP by a purple flame---is this a reference to wine and fermentation?
Neville, seems a bit more ambiguous, and Trevor leads to suspicions. Neville is the final factor that tips the scales in Gryffindor's favor.
Dumbledore, the alchemist, transforms the bleak last place of Gryffindor in the final pages by transforming green to red and silver to gold.
Some of the other comments on the first book, the Mirror of Erised and mercury, for example, are earlier on the thread so I won't put them out again here.
Addenda: Wormtail as Scabbers acts heroically to save Ron's diginity by biting Goyle's knuckle at the key moment. Surely this is a foreshadowing of Wormtail's redemption?
Hermione mentions the beginning of transfiguration as matches to needles/ reference to fire and metal, and they actually begin this process in Transfiguration---Hermione is the only witch able to perform it, and McGonnagall is pleased with her. Could the needles on Jo's website, point us in this direction?
Could the fact that we have to make potions to get our easter eggs also be a clue? We have been given what look like bezoars. Snape complains that potions are underestimated in their power, and "liquid flowing through the veins" has the power to transform----perhaps a reference to Harry's blood as an agent? Voldemort's most successful magic to date has been through potions and possession.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 12, 2004 1:32 pm (#820 of 1121)
Hollywand, While, I see your point and I concede that it exists as a possibility given the evidence thus far presented. I think a probability that the biting of Goyle Jr. represents either a conflict within the Death Eaters related to the lust and desire for power or an act designed to preserve the concealment of his status as an animagus.
I doubt Peter can see the value of redemption. The only thing thus far that he desires is to avoid the consequences of his actions and to save his own skin and avoid death.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 1:37 pm (#821 of 1121)
OK, Nathan, I disagree, I think Peter will pivot in toward the Gryffindors. Peter didn't exactly have a lot to gain as a rat biting the knuckle of a human boy except to defend Ron, and he got himself thrown against the window for his troubles, and Ron called him a dead weight after that. Seems ominous to me.
To Archangel's point, I also wonder if the trio's bonds will face some real challenges in Book Six as Hermione is taken away from the picture at some juncture.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 2:28 pm (#822 of 1121)
The notion of lying seems to be intricately woven into the book as a mercurial, duplicity laden message.
Hagrid lies quite a bit to cover his use of magic. He lies to Mr. Ollivander. The dragon egg aqucisition is a lie by omission, and alcohol is the fostering agent.
Harry lies to maintain his privacy, he especially knows intutitvely to use lying to defend himself from Voldemort. As Voldemort is a Janus figure, and their last struggle is in the Mirror of Erised, this seems a foreshadowing.
Harry may intuitively be quite an Occlumens---I suspect this is why Severus tries to make Harry angry--he wants a look into Harry's mind. Harry, in his initial eye duel with Snape in his first potions class clearly decides not to break eye contact with Snape's dark, hollow tunnel eyes.
Perhaps the final battle will be fought with the gaze, and Lily's eyes will be the final weapon Harry uses to defeat Voldemort.
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Archangel - Dec 12, 2004 6:38 pm (#823 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Elanor, of course I'd give discounts to Forum people! Man, I can just imagine myself doing a Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost impersonation if this truly happens!
Hollywand, final battle fought with the gaze? And the first one who blinks loses?
I'm thinking Harry would use his mother's eyes to deflect Voldemort's attempts to read his mind. Eye contact is very important in Legilimency so he may be averse to looking Harry directly OR more exciting, Harry uses this initial eye contact and turns it against Voldemort using it to penetrate his mind. What do you think?
Interesting that Harry's eyes are green and Voldemort's have been described as being red. Red and green are usually associated with Holly and Christmas!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 12, 2004 9:38 pm (#824 of 1121)
When I hear of the varities of colors mentioned I am reminded of the rainbow that is cast when a white light is focused through a prism. Each color and shade of said color represents a variation. It should also be noted that within the spectrum of color cast by the White light through the prism there are 7 Colors created
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet. Is possible that the colors represent a stage of development and as such each color represents a book in the series. In addition to being a metaphor for a respect for differences.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 9:58 pm (#825 of 1121)
The Invisibility Cloak seems a reference to the liquid mercury mirror. Rowling descibes it as slivery, silky, feeling like water--very flowing terms for this object Harry inherits from his father. It seems a metaphor for inheriting the spirit image of his father.
It is curious that Harry is invisible, beneath the cloak when he first encounters the Mirror of Erised. He cannot see himself, but sees his family, particularly his mother and father through a transparent veil.
It is at this juncture with the Mirror of Erised that Dumbledore reveals himself---he is an invisible presence watching Harry, perhaps for all three of his encounters before the mirror.
This mentor/student relationship between Harry and Dumbledore leads me to suspect that none of the "blunders" hiring the DADA teachers has been unintentional.
Dumbledore gives the invisibility cloak to Harry twice during the book, making it possible for Harry to transgress every part of Hogwarts.
Dumbledore is silently with him more than we realize, and allowing Harry to face Voldemort at each step, as Voldemort gradually regains power.
Hermione sets Severus' robes aflame with her blue flames--blue the hottest a color a flame can burn. Is this a foreshadowing of Severus as the dark phoenix, and Hermione his Hermes? It is Severus who makes the black flames, the purple flames, yet also brews the potions to transcend the flames.
Severus has been attacked by Lupin, the grey wolf before we meet him. He has been bitten by Cerebus, Hagid's guardian dog called fluffy that guards the trapdoor to the dungeon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Coming back to what we said about the numbers bound to the characters, I have searched more details concerning the number 2, the number we connected to Harry through his birthday (3+1+0+7=11, 1+1=2 and 3+1+7+1+9+8+0=29, 2+9=11, 1+1=2).
In alchemy, the number 2 refers to the duality, the couple of opposites, as are the yin and the yang in the Far East. The two natures, masculine and feminine, positive and negative, active and passive can be seen in the mineral kingdom as well.
We should maybe add the Wizarding World to that list, whose duality can be seen through Harry and Voldemort.
But in alchemy, no value is absolute and the masculine has some feminine traces, as the feminine has some masculine traces too.
If we apply that theory to Harry and Voldemort, that means that there are some traces of Voldemort in Harry, which we already know (parseltongue...) but also that there are traces of Harry in Voldemort. We don't know about those traces yet but they are certainly very important for the story.
Now, Jo told us that we should think why Voldemort survived when the AK curse rebounded: should it be because at the same time he gave something from him to Harry, he received something from Harry too? Hence the "equal" the prophecy taks about, the equality is at that moment reciprocal.
But Voldemort took Harry's blood for his rebirth: there is no equality anymore, the "Harry's part" in Voldemort has become greater than the "Voldemort's part" in Harry, though we can not see the consequences of that for now, but will be what will allow Harry to vanquish Voldemort for good.
Does it help us? I don't know, but I think it is coherent with what we already found. What do you think about it?
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Hollywand - Dec 8, 2004 10:03 pm (#802 of 1121)
Hi Elanor and Zelmia, I wanted to reply that I find the discussion of the Tarot card equivalents very interesting, but I don't know enough about the Tarot to make any sort of meaningful associations with the characters.
And Zelmia, thanks for your kind words. I love this thread and the people that contribute to it. The comments are so thoughtful and enriching. And perhaps (ohmy!) controversial. Hah.
I can't wait for the end of the semester so I can reread the series with a new alchemist's perspective. I think that, as a group, we have uncovered some powerful underlying themes in the series, and yes, I believe they are definitely intended by Rowling and woven into the imagery. Lumos!
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Archangel - Dec 9, 2004 3:58 am (#803 of 1121)
"...I believe a same card can represent several characters at different times of their journey, which would fit very well with the alchemical symbols which work like that too. So, a character could be represented by several cards as well. " - Elanor
I agree with this. This is why it's so hard and tricky to just limit a card to one character because the cards can be interpreted in so many ways depending on their position, timing, etc., and the characters in HP are so dynamic that not only do they grow but their relationships with other people and their surroundings change as well.
Interesting though, in Tarot the Fool card is counted as 0 and the World card is 21, instead of being 1 and 22. I guess it's one way of saying from nothing comes something... The World card represents completion and yet signifies the beginning of another journey. It is the Ouroboros.
I'm wondering if JKR uses the sequence of the major arcana as a sort of milestone in each of the book and not just as a representation of a character. This way, each book is a journey and we have themes and roles that more or less stay the same even though the characters espousing those themes and acting those roles are not same ones in the other books. This can also explain the independence/continuity "feel" that I get from this series -- meaning each book can be appreciated on its own and be meaningful by its lonesome, but I, as a reader, know that it's a part of a series -- a bigger and longer journey.
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Elanor - Dec 9, 2004 12:25 pm (#804 of 1121)
Very interesting Archangel! This gives a new prospect to the study of the major arcana symbols.
Some characters seems more bound to a single card, as McGonagall and the Justice card, but this could come from the fact that her "role" in each book and in the entire series don't change a lot. She is a pillar in Hogwarts' and Harry's life, and pillars don't move.
But the main characters, the ones on their journey, can be bound to several cards as they move on that path.
I have just read that, if you put those 22 cards in a certain order, you find the entire cosmogony of the alchemists, that is to say their conception of the universe: the chaos, the fire as a creator, the division of the materia prima in 4 elements... In these cards are also the main themes of the alchemical thinking: the solar symbolism, the knowledge by inspiration, the dualism (feminine and masculine, which leads to every couple of opposites), the evil and the fall. The same underlying themes that we find in Jo's work too.
Hollywand, I think it is a great idea to reread the entire series in that perspective! I wanted to reread PS at least during the holidays, it would be great if we all would share our thoughts about those rereadings, what do you think? Anyone else interested in doing that?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 9, 2004 12:54 pm (#805 of 1121)
I agree among the characters that moves among cards with more ease is Harry because, while he currently rests at the Hermit I find that he is also a male personification of the Justice card.
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Hollywand - Dec 9, 2004 4:44 pm (#806 of 1121)
I would love to do an alchemist's read along--any ideas for how we could manage that? Should we go off line into a private forum for the discussion? What about book Six?
I am wondering if Jo will surprise us a little earlier and give us some tidbit on 12/22/04---it will be the longest night, the shortest day, a perfect time to tease us!
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Elanor - Dec 10, 2004 12:14 pm (#807 of 1121)
Hi everyone! Have you seen that Jo updated her site today? I have not had the time to read all the new stuff yet but I loved what she wrote about Harry and Voldemort's wands:
"It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort's wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from 'holy') repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousands years old), can symbolize both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous."
And I remembered what we said some weeks ago about those wands and their meaning as alchemists connected yew and holly to Saturn. It was in the posts 746-748 and I was saying:
“Saturn is the symbol of a power of destruction, the old man, image of sterility. But it can also refer to the youth of the world and to a spiritual rebirth, since, after being drove out by Jupiter, he made a long journey to the Fortunate Islands. If we apply this symbol to both Harry and Voldemort then Voldemort is the old man, the destruction and Harry his opposite, the youth of the world, the light, the hope.”
We were very close, weren’t we? I'm so happy about this! Thanks Jo!
About the PS reading, maybe we could do it on this thread, on an informal way, just putting what we found the more relevant in this perspective, and that as much as possible people can join the discussion. What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 10, 2004 1:29 pm (#808 of 1121)
Elanor also the assignment of woods based on birthdates was quite interesting. This is a website I found on sacred woods.
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It is also notable that each of the trio's wands contains one of the three cores used by Mr. Ollivander.
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Archangel - Dec 10, 2004 9:32 pm (#809 of 1121)
JKR posted a lot of new info today, the most interesting for me is the thing about wands esp. Hermione's. Hermione has a vine wood wand with a dragon heartstring core.
"IVY / VINE The Ivy was sacred to Osiris as well as to Dionysus. Vine and Ivy come next to each other at the turn of the year, and are jointly dedicated to resurrection. Presumably, this is because they are the only two trees that grow spirally. The Vine also symbolizes resurrection because its strength is preserved in the wine. ASPECTS: (VINE) Joy, Exhilaration, Wrath, Rebirth. (IVY) Fidelity, Constancy, Love, Intoxication. "
Harry will conquer Voldemort's death wand through his "Holy" wand. Would it be up to Hermione's wand to bring him back to life being associated to rebirth and love?
As for her wand core, I kept thinking of it being associated to Draco (the Dragon!). I find it interesting that when Hermione confronted Draco, she never used magic but used her physical abilities. Now why is that?
If you're interested in other tree associations, you might find these links useful: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Elanor - Dec 11, 2004 8:11 am (#810 of 1121)
This is very interesting indeed Nathan and Archangel!
First, I think that the fact that "each of the trio's wands contains one of the three cores used by Mr. Ollivander" fits really well with the triad symbol we already connected to the trio, that is to say the 3 principles of alchemy (mercury, sulfur and salt) which are different but one at the same time.
More, the way Jo says it is very interesting, she says: "Harry, Ron and Hermione unite the 3 Ollivander wand cores". I can't help but think to the 3 alchemical principles again who have to unite to give the Philosopher's stone. Those 3 principles are an image of the world for the alchemists, which was divided in "corpus, anima et spiritus", the body, the soul, the spirit: a nice metaphor for wands cores too, don't you think so?
What you have found about Vine is great Archangel! I also found that the Vine was one of the plants used for symbolizing virtues. It represents temperance. I've searched what we had said about the temperance card in tarot: "This is the symbol of the regeneration of life, the announcement of the rebirth, the purification by water poured from a vase in another one." The symbols complement one another perfectly!
It could be also connected to the alchemical symbols about the wine and alcohol: the wine as the "elixir of life", the water of life, the water that burns. Here again, we find the symbols of rebirth and resurrection. How interesting is it that it's Hermione's wand that is connected to that symbol!
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Hollywand - Dec 11, 2004 9:01 am (#811 of 1121)
Congratulations to all of you above on some great contributions; I think we will very much enjoy deciphering the symbolism in the forthcoming books due to everyone's insights! Fantastic work!
A toast?
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zelmia - Dec 11, 2004 3:24 pm (#812 of 1121)
The only toasts I know I don't know how to spell! (ha!) So are we doing the re-read? Are we starting off the new year by doing that or are we doing it now?
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Archangel - Dec 11, 2004 6:17 pm (#813 of 1121)
In my country, we say "Saludo!"
Count me in the re-read! I can't wait for Book 6 and continue this journey!
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Hollywand - Dec 11, 2004 8:27 pm (#814 of 1121)
HaHa, What a great group of people! Did I mention that "stoat" is an anagram of "toast": must be the key...... ;-)
Does anyone have suggestions on how to progress a group read? Should we do an synopsis of , say, four of chapters at a time and discuss? Should we have a specific time we can all "meet" online and have a group discussion? That would be exciting! Weekends would be good for me....I have the next two weeks free and plan to dive head first into the Philosopher's Stone after I finish this email.
If we read as a group, we should be comfortably through the five books by May and really stoked for Book Six....Yeee Haaa.
Elanor, I loved your connection with Hermione and the Wine/Vine relationship. I made that association as well. The puzzle pieces are falling into place......it's so exciting.
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Solitaire - Dec 11, 2004 9:33 pm (#815 of 1121)
How about Harry and Hermione--as in the Holly and the Ivy? Does this indicate another adventure for the two of them together? Here is another link, too, about Yule and the Solstice. It mentions the trees and symbols, as well.
While I don't contribute much to this thread (I'm kind of lost on a lot of it), I do follow it. Zelmia, you mentioned the Fool and not knowing which character that would be, as most had begun their journeys. How about Draco? Has he begun his journey yet, or is this something that will commence in Book 6? Could he be the Fool? Just a thought ...
Elanor, do you suppose Madame Rosmerta sells Wassail at Christmastime? Also, I think Wassail parties sound perfect for Hogwarts! ;-)
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 11, 2004 9:55 pm (#816 of 1121)
Solitaire those ideas have potential. Draco could be the Fool because, his character has not developed or evolved in any signifcant way.
I think that there may be more adventures that involve Harry and Hermione as a duo that will have the same effect as their adventure in PoA.
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Archangel - Dec 12, 2004 2:27 am (#817 of 1121)
Solitaire, that is a very interesting observation. Draco seems stuck, doesn't he? For a character that gets a lot of "page time", his appearance seem to follow the "insult or irritate Hermione - brag about being a pure-blood/family connections/money - lose Quidditch match to Harry and find ways to get back at Scar-head - get stunned/hexed while on the Hogwarts Express at end of school year" routine. Hopefully in Book 6, we read something different about Ferret Boy. Having a title that bears his name looks promising already.
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I observed an interesting characteristic of a vine. Its strength is deceiving! A lot of people underestimate it because its "branches" are so slender and it doesn't grow upright and on its own like normal trees. However, once it spreads out and the support is in place, it's actually very, very sturdy. I've been to old church ruins here and it's interesting that their pillars and walls have vines crawling all over them and I think in some way that has prevented the whole thing from coming down.
Hermione is somewhat like this. The DEs in MoM underestimated her magical abilities and this contributed to their failure in attaining the prophecy. Umbridge underestimated her cunning and acting ability and she was blindly led to the forest right under the thundering hooves of the centaurs. Her character has changed a lot from being just a bookworm to being pro-active enough to use her knowledge to advance causes that she believes in (e.g. SPEW, DA, etc.) Throughout the series, even if Hermione is not with Harry in the final battles physically, it cannot be denied that she has always been there for him -- helping him prepare for the tasks, searching for clues, etc. I'm not sure if Harry realizes this by now but without Hermione, he would have been dead as early as his first Quidditch match!
As much as I would like to read another H&H adventure, I get this feeling that somehow JKR might spring a surprise and break that bond (or at least separate the real "dream team" of the series) in Book 6 to disastrous results with the intention of making Harry realize what a luxury and privilege it is to have "the brightest witch of their age" by your side.
BTW, although I'm thinking and feeling that this might happen, if this indeed happens, I'd go like this for 10 minutes and then promptly set up a fortune telling shop.
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Elanor - Dec 12, 2004 12:35 pm (#818 of 1121)
Great ideas everyone! We have already seen a lot of clues binding Harry and Hermione together in the fight againt Voldemort, it is brilliant that their wands connect too symbolically. She was always there for Harry, even if sometimes he didn't understand her (as for the firebolt episode) and I believe she will be till the end. (Er... if you set up a fortune telling shop Archangel, will you give a reduction to the forumers? )
Solitaire, LOL! Wassail seems to be perfect for Mrs Rosemerta's pub indeed!
Hollywand,we could begin that reread during the Christmas holidays. What if we would begin on next weekend? Or is there another date that would suit all of you better?
About the toast, here we say "à votre santé!" **raising my glass to all the forumers**
EDIT: I almost forgotten! it is Charlie's birthday today: the 12th of the 12th month of 1972. In French we pronounce "72", sixty-twelve. (Great year to be born BTW, he, he, he! I'm very happy to share my year of birth with a Weasley boy!). Anyway, all this 12 make me think that we can expect great things from him in the future. The more because he is very bound to fire and red symbols (working with dragons, red ahir, a LOT of freckles...). Go Charlie!
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 1:05 pm (#819 of 1121)
Gryffindor
Um, I already devoured the First Book again. I'm not sure how we can do the re-read congruently. I'm about to begin the Second, probably will have devoured that by Monday. Hmmm. Apologies, I find the books impossible to put down once I get to reading them, I swear they are charmed by a very clever witch.......
I saw even more references to alchemy, and some surprising details I had not absorbed before, such as:
I found it curious that we begin "below Zero"--that is, from the perspective of Vernon, the most clueless person of the series. Petunia, to me, seems much more willfully blind, however, that even Vernon, as he seems as some junctures to just want to resolve his issues by abandoning Harry.
Harry begins from an angle of repose, under the stairs, wishing for a watch to mark time. One of the first mentions of him clothing himself is to pull a spider from his socks.
The letters and the countdown seem to have self-referential sequences in the book: four, seven, twelve, are repeated over and over in the time, the address, the message.
Harry's primary positive identification with his looks begin with his scar. His scar is described quite positively in several key passages of the book. Dumbledore and Ollivander imply in separate comments that the wand, Voldemort's wand is responsible for the scar.Dumbledore is quite positive toward the scar as well, mentions his own scar.
Our first encounter with a mirror metaphor is the transparent glass between the boa and Harry. Harry identifies with the snakes captivity and alienation; his compassion awakens the snake, and he sets it free---sets it upon Dudley in his anger. The snake here, perhaps a reference to mercury.
The second mirror metaphor is Ollivander,silver, moon-like eyes with automatic measuring tape seems to really be testing Harry's core before offering the final wand.Ollivander seems to be a key silver rite of passage to wizarding.
Clear distinctions in Harry's internal evaluations of potential friends---Malfoy is assessed, and the barriers go up. Ron is assessed, and the bonds are forged.
Hermione is bound to purple--she walks through a purple flame, is stunned in OOtP by a purple flame---is this a reference to wine and fermentation?
Neville, seems a bit more ambiguous, and Trevor leads to suspicions. Neville is the final factor that tips the scales in Gryffindor's favor.
Dumbledore, the alchemist, transforms the bleak last place of Gryffindor in the final pages by transforming green to red and silver to gold.
Some of the other comments on the first book, the Mirror of Erised and mercury, for example, are earlier on the thread so I won't put them out again here.
Addenda: Wormtail as Scabbers acts heroically to save Ron's diginity by biting Goyle's knuckle at the key moment. Surely this is a foreshadowing of Wormtail's redemption?
Hermione mentions the beginning of transfiguration as matches to needles/ reference to fire and metal, and they actually begin this process in Transfiguration---Hermione is the only witch able to perform it, and McGonnagall is pleased with her. Could the needles on Jo's website, point us in this direction?
Could the fact that we have to make potions to get our easter eggs also be a clue? We have been given what look like bezoars. Snape complains that potions are underestimated in their power, and "liquid flowing through the veins" has the power to transform----perhaps a reference to Harry's blood as an agent? Voldemort's most successful magic to date has been through potions and possession.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 12, 2004 1:32 pm (#820 of 1121)
Hollywand, While, I see your point and I concede that it exists as a possibility given the evidence thus far presented. I think a probability that the biting of Goyle Jr. represents either a conflict within the Death Eaters related to the lust and desire for power or an act designed to preserve the concealment of his status as an animagus.
I doubt Peter can see the value of redemption. The only thing thus far that he desires is to avoid the consequences of his actions and to save his own skin and avoid death.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 1:37 pm (#821 of 1121)
OK, Nathan, I disagree, I think Peter will pivot in toward the Gryffindors. Peter didn't exactly have a lot to gain as a rat biting the knuckle of a human boy except to defend Ron, and he got himself thrown against the window for his troubles, and Ron called him a dead weight after that. Seems ominous to me.
To Archangel's point, I also wonder if the trio's bonds will face some real challenges in Book Six as Hermione is taken away from the picture at some juncture.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 2:28 pm (#822 of 1121)
The notion of lying seems to be intricately woven into the book as a mercurial, duplicity laden message.
Hagrid lies quite a bit to cover his use of magic. He lies to Mr. Ollivander. The dragon egg aqucisition is a lie by omission, and alcohol is the fostering agent.
Harry lies to maintain his privacy, he especially knows intutitvely to use lying to defend himself from Voldemort. As Voldemort is a Janus figure, and their last struggle is in the Mirror of Erised, this seems a foreshadowing.
Harry may intuitively be quite an Occlumens---I suspect this is why Severus tries to make Harry angry--he wants a look into Harry's mind. Harry, in his initial eye duel with Snape in his first potions class clearly decides not to break eye contact with Snape's dark, hollow tunnel eyes.
Perhaps the final battle will be fought with the gaze, and Lily's eyes will be the final weapon Harry uses to defeat Voldemort.
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Archangel - Dec 12, 2004 6:38 pm (#823 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Elanor, of course I'd give discounts to Forum people! Man, I can just imagine myself doing a Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost impersonation if this truly happens!
Hollywand, final battle fought with the gaze? And the first one who blinks loses?
I'm thinking Harry would use his mother's eyes to deflect Voldemort's attempts to read his mind. Eye contact is very important in Legilimency so he may be averse to looking Harry directly OR more exciting, Harry uses this initial eye contact and turns it against Voldemort using it to penetrate his mind. What do you think?
Interesting that Harry's eyes are green and Voldemort's have been described as being red. Red and green are usually associated with Holly and Christmas!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 12, 2004 9:38 pm (#824 of 1121)
When I hear of the varities of colors mentioned I am reminded of the rainbow that is cast when a white light is focused through a prism. Each color and shade of said color represents a variation. It should also be noted that within the spectrum of color cast by the White light through the prism there are 7 Colors created
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet. Is possible that the colors represent a stage of development and as such each color represents a book in the series. In addition to being a metaphor for a respect for differences.
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Hollywand - Dec 12, 2004 9:58 pm (#825 of 1121)
The Invisibility Cloak seems a reference to the liquid mercury mirror. Rowling descibes it as slivery, silky, feeling like water--very flowing terms for this object Harry inherits from his father. It seems a metaphor for inheriting the spirit image of his father.
It is curious that Harry is invisible, beneath the cloak when he first encounters the Mirror of Erised. He cannot see himself, but sees his family, particularly his mother and father through a transparent veil.
It is at this juncture with the Mirror of Erised that Dumbledore reveals himself---he is an invisible presence watching Harry, perhaps for all three of his encounters before the mirror.
This mentor/student relationship between Harry and Dumbledore leads me to suspect that none of the "blunders" hiring the DADA teachers has been unintentional.
Dumbledore gives the invisibility cloak to Harry twice during the book, making it possible for Harry to transgress every part of Hogwarts.
Dumbledore is silently with him more than we realize, and allowing Harry to face Voldemort at each step, as Voldemort gradually regains power.
Hermione sets Severus' robes aflame with her blue flames--blue the hottest a color a flame can burn. Is this a foreshadowing of Severus as the dark phoenix, and Hermione his Hermes? It is Severus who makes the black flames, the purple flames, yet also brews the potions to transcend the flames.
Severus has been attacked by Lupin, the grey wolf before we meet him. He has been bitten by Cerebus, Hagid's guardian dog called fluffy that guards the trapdoor to the dungeon.
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 826 to 850)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:08 am
Elanor - Dec 13, 2004 12:01 pm (#826 of 1121)
Wow, Hollywand, you've been busy I see! Great connections! I loved the mirror references, I had missed most of them. I'm dying to start this reread myself to compare our thoughts about it. I will try and start it tonight, but I am a rather slow reader in English when I want to miss nothing, so I'm afraid it will be only by some chapters in a row. I'm sorry I can't do it faster, why on earth is there something called "work" one must go to?
Nathan, this is very interesting! The 7 colours are part of the system of connections used by alchemists: the 7 planets, the 7 metals, the 7 parts of the body, the 7 notes of the octave... All of them were bound for them. I can't remember where I read it for now, but I am almost sure I have read somewhere that Newton's work about Optics is very impregnated with that way of thinking as he was an alchemist. I will search if I can find the exact quote about that if you want.
I was thinking again to Charlie's birthday, so bound to the number 12 and wondering if, as he is very bound to the dragons, it could be a hint to the 12 uses of Dragon's blood. He might be the one that could provide the Order with Dragon blood, if one of the 12 uses of it should be needed in the next books. We have heard about Dragon blood a lot, but never really saw it used if I remember well, it should be time now, shouldn't it?
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 12:39 pm (#827 of 1121)
Hi Elanor! A couple more details I will call your attention to on the Book One reading:
Draco and the dragon: Draco gets held back by Minerva. Draco tries to betray Harry and Hermione, paired beneath the cloak of invisibility, as they attempt to hand off Norbert to four of Charlie's flying friends from the North Towers. Harry/Draco and Hermione must then travel into the Forbidden Forest to discover who is murdering unicorns.
Ottery St. Catchpol: Chickens are mentioned three times at the Burrow. and Arthur makes a misstep, tripped by a chicken carrying Ginny's trunk. Interesting?
References to cats: Many of the key junctures in the story involve cats, and they seem very ambiguous. Minerva, Mrs. Norris---I can't wait to read the rest of the series to see how the iconography of the cat unfolds.
Take your time, Elanor, on the reread, I'm just writing out my observations so I don't forget them whilst I am deeply immersed in the Potter universe.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 13, 2004 12:49 pm (#828 of 1121)
In the spectrum produced as white light is passed through the prism. the color green, the color of both Lily and Harry eyes is the central color in the rainbow with 3 colors before it and 3 colors after it.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 1:21 pm (#829 of 1121)
In NeoPlatonic theory used in the Renaissance, the colors of the spectrum represented levels of spiritual enlightenment. Violet was the outer ring, progressing to yellow=gold as closest to god.
Angels are often depicted by rank with these colors on their wings. This color referencing can be found in the wings of the angels of Jan Van Eyck, Raphael Sanzio, Michelangelo and Botticelli. My particular favorite is the resurrection panel of the Isenhiem Altarpiece by Mattias Gothart, aka Grunewald.
Grunewald's Isenheim altarpiece was painted for a monastery that treated victims of ergot poisioning. Ergot is a mold that grows on rye. Evidently rye was grown and molded and made into a delicious paste (I am being ironic here). Ingesting the mold caused hallucinations, numbness in the limbs and eventually death. The gorgeous halos in the Isenheim altarpiece are thought to parallel the halos one would see in the last stages of ergot poisioning. MMMMM. Pilgrims thought they were receiving the visions of St Anthony.
When Archangel on our thread appears, I think of Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer, the three traditionally mentioned in Christian iconography as archangels. Hello Archangel. ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 13, 2004 2:56 pm (#830 of 1121)
Speaking of angels. In the Midrash a book of Jewish lore that is an text used to explain the Torah.
God sits on a throne surrounded by four archangels Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel.
Here is the link to the Encyclopedia Mythica entry on Uriel.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 7:48 pm (#831 of 1121)
Some interesting additional details from The Chamber of Secrets:
When Colin is petrified, he has a bundle of grapes in his hand; this would seem to be a symbolic connection with Mercury, this god holds grapes---an makes a connection with Harry's wine-producing wand, and Hermione's vine/Wine wand.
When Hermione is petrified, she holds a small round mirror, to me a strong reference to Mercury, both as messenger and quicksilver, and the key message that solves the mystery of the book; Harry reaches beyond her state of repose, and they communicate.
Hermione is transformed into a giant black cat, which she is very ashamed of, a real failure of her whole plan of revenge on Draco for calling her a Mudblood. Nigredo for Hermione.
Harry shuts his eyes at a key juncture in the battle against the Basilisk. His gaze, his mother's eyes may in fact be one of his strongest weapons in the future.
Music and alchemy: The song of the Phoenix. Harry hears the song in the chamber before Fawkes appears. Fawkes' song appears again later in the Goblet of Fire.
A Time exchange: Tom Riddle points out to Harry the Lord Voldemort is his past, present and future. The diary is Tom/Voldemort's past.
His question to Harry: "How could you have defeated me in what is now your (Harry's) past, and my (Tom's) future?"
Time exchange---by destroying the diary, Harry is erasing Tom Riddle, Voldemort's past. I would argue that Harry erases even more of Voldemort's past with the A Priori Incantum. It's a matter of time, until Harry completely erases Voldemort.
This is what Dumbledore means by saying at the close of Book One that if Voldemort's return can be delayed and delayed, he may never return to power at all.
Harry may not conventionally kill Voldemort, he may slowly erase the events of his life until Voldemort doesn't exist anymore.
Harry took the future from Voldemort by smashing the Prophecy.
Harry impales the Basilk with Godric's Sword, and takes a blood bath, exchange with the snake. His blood bath/venom exchange is his rubedo process in the Chamber of Secrets. He then takes the fang of the Basilk, and impales Tom's Diary's Heart, destroying its core history.
Tom Marvolo Riddle (3)/ I am Lord Voldemort (4) a seven exchange performed with Harry's wand---the process is being reversed in the name of the wizard, by the Dark Lord himself.
Harry encounters Fawkes in Chapter Twelve, ecounters Tom Riddle in Chapter 13 TMRiddle----Mort with a single circle omitted---alchemical symbol for the green lion.
Oh, it's probably just a coincidence.......
Ironcially, the only Dark Art the trio learn during the second year is from Severus, and that's how to disarm others: "Expelliarmus".
Severus sets a black snake upon Harry to humilitate him, yet ends up discovering that Harry has quite a lot of power over snakes.....
More references to chickens here, as the Basilisk can be killed by the crowing of a rooster, Hagrid loses two of his roosters.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 9:19 pm (#832 of 1121)
I find it interesting that Rowling has recently taken the time to stipulate that Hermione is a year older than had previously been indicated on the existing time line. Could this be a clue that Hermione may have a romantic interest in her near future?
So much fuss has been made over Harry's romantic interests, I had forgotten that it is Hermione that first develops a crush---on Gilderoy Lockhart. Of course even the name shouts narcissism, and he certainly is an illusory love and not a very good wizard.
We all get taken with Harry's interest, and Cho turns out to be the white swan, another illusion.
Hermione then develops a quiet attachment to Krum, and a rather noisy attachment to Ron.
I was struck in Book Five by Harry's budding jealousy of Ron and Hermionie being alone without him---he seems to feel rather left out, and perhaps imagine they might be a little too close for his comfort. Perhaps these are his own feelings developing?
In Book One, Hermione specializes in a blue flame that can be started in water---and this flame makes another appearance in transforming the Polyjuice Potion. Will her blue flame figure in a future scenario that involves water? Water? Otter? Nah.
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Archangel - Dec 13, 2004 9:19 pm (#833 of 1121)
Wow you've been busy!!! Very interesting connections all around. I like the green = central color connection Nathan. Hollywand, the color and angels connections are fascinating as well.
In earlier part of this thread, I made a connection between Michael's shield and the GG's sword and alchemy's magical sword. Michael is the leader of the celestial army against the rebellious angels. Lucifer and Gabriel are seraphims (the fiery ones!), the highest order of angels. Interesting that in the link that Nathan provided, the word seraph is associated to Hebrew noun, saraph meaning "fiery, flying serpent"! Fiery + flying + serpent = Mercury!
OK, not sure if you have noticed this but in the past 5 books, Harry always begins in a lying position ("dead" position). In PS/SS, we are first introduced to him as a sleeping baby left as the Dursleys' step and then years later, sleeping in the cupboard under the stairs. In GoF, although it opened with a "flashback"/"dream" chapter, Harry is introduced to us as being awoken by the pain that he felt with his scar. In OoP, although he wasn't in his room, we find him in the shrubs lying underneath his uncle and aunt's window listening to the news.
Also, interesting that I didn't see this before, but in the PoA scene wherein Hermione punches Draco, she first pointed her wand at him. If you zoom in on the wand, you'd see vines at the base of the wand! Not sure though if JKR specifically told the props people to make her wand look like that or not perhaps they got it right by "sheer dumb luck"
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 9:47 am (#834 of 1121)
More mercury/silver mirror associations with Book One:
Mrs. Norris, the cat, is frozen by reflection on the water.
Colin holds a bunch of grapes, but also a camera. The camera is a sort of mirror image maker. Silver affixes the image. Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, and vapor issues forth.
Justin is frozen with Nearly Headless Nick, the ghost. Ghosts are described throughout this book as flushing silver.
Hermione is frozen in conjunction with Penelope (wife of Ulyssess) Clearwater. Associations with Hermione and water are repeated throughout the series. Penelope is the partner of Percy. Hmmmm.
I mentioned earlier that Time Exchange seems to be a theme of the books. Harry transcends time by erasing Tom Riddle's diary. Hermione transcends time with her Time Turner, a gift made possible by Minerva. Hermione takes Harry with her in an alternate time, to erase the execution of the Hippogriff and Sirius. Together Harry and Hermione release the Hippogriff and Sirius, and a bond is forged between Buckbeak and Sirius.
The encounter with Lupin and the Dementor on the train to Hogwarts is loaded with color symbolism. The sky through the window is grey, then black. Lupin awakes brandishing a flame, repels the Dementor with silver, dispenses nourishment to Harry.
I just love this story.
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 10:36 am (#835 of 1121)
Arthur Weasley is fascinated with Muggles, and their instruments.
Arthur is talented at taking Muggle instruments and magicking them up for his own use.
Arthur meets and adores the Grangers, and insists on sharing alcohol with them at the Leaky Cauldron
Arthur has a very noisy argument with Lucius in Florish and Blotts with Lucius over Mudbloods in front of the Grangers. Punches Lucius and is ejected from the store.
Hmmm. Something tells me that Arthur and the Grangers may get together to do something that is both Magic and Muggle, perhaps involving mercury, since the Grangers are dentists. Hmmm.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 14, 2004 11:52 am (#836 of 1121)
The NASA website has the following statement regarding violet light
The visible violet light has a wavelength of about 400 nm. Within the visible wavelength spectrum, violet and blue wavelengths are scattered more efficiently than other wavelengths. The sky looks blue, not violet, because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light (the sun also emits more energy as blue light than as violet).
The portion about being less visible (discernable) to human eyes has interesting implications as it could possibly relate to the character of Severus Snape, Albus Dumbledore, and Aberforth Dumbledore.
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Elanor - Dec 14, 2004 12:34 pm (#837 of 1121)
Very interesting Hollywand! I had never noticed there were so many references to mirrors in the books!
For my part, I have started the reread of PS and I was struck with some references that I had ever noticed before from the first chapter.
The first wizard we meet is McGonagall, as a cat sitting on 4 PD's wall. In alchemy, the cat is a solar symbol. It leads the alchemist to the Philosopher's stone. In a way, Mc Gonagall as a cat here, is the first reference to the stone in the book. Symbolically, the cat leads thus to truth, and Mc Gonagall is here to hear the truth from DD.
The first thing we see DD do in PS is to use the Put-Outer 12 times. In the same chapter, it is also said that his golden watch has 12 hands. DD connected twice with the number 12 from the very first chapter is very interesting.
But what I found the most interesting was that the first other wizard we hear about in that first chapter is Dedalus Dingle. Dedalus! The one who built the maze for the Minotaur. The one who told Ariadne to give Theseus a thread if she wanted him to escape from the maze. The one who, afterwards, was sentenced to be locked up inside the maze with his son Icarus. The one who made some wings for his son and himself to escape the maze: his son flew too high, the wax melt and he felt, but Dedalus escaped.
So, we have our very first reference to the maze in the very first chapter! If I remember well, Harry will meet him at the Leaky Cauldron afterwards, just before he will enter the "maze" of the wizarding world! Oh my, I can't believe I didn't see it before!
At that time of the reread, I thought I was doing it the wrong way: I need a notebook and to organize the references I will find whereas it will be too difficult. So, I'm going to start again tomorrow, with the right equipment this time!
BTW, I loved the colours/angels connections too! They reminded me that Fleur's sister was called Gabrielle, from the same archangel you mentioned.
Great remark about the lying positions Archangel! Another note to put in my notebook... I'd better choose it big tomorrow...
EDIT: great work Nathan! And the first time we meet DD in PS, he is wearing a purple cloak. The ingredients are all already there, the potion is on fire, ready to bubble!
BTW, have the other re-readers (is that English?) started their researches as well?
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 1:12 pm (#838 of 1121)
Great additions to understanding the iconography everyone.
I am gripped by Book Three
I like Severus a lot less than I used to, he's pretty mean toward Lupin, who doesn't deserve it....
Harry's encounters with the Dementors are loaded with icy water. During his Quidditch match with the Hufflepuffs, he must ascend into a lightining storm, he sees Sirius below, in his animagus form. Harry is blinded by the water and electricity.
Hermione appears from nowhere and transforms his glasses, making them impervious to water. Will these magically protected glasses figure in the final battle?
Harry is able to continue the match, but is interrupted by the dementors. Cedric catches the snitch. Harry falls from a great height, yet is unscathed. (His magical ability to withstand physical stress grows stronger).
In Divination, Harry tells Ron he will attain the sun. Hmm.
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 7:23 pm (#839 of 1121)
The Weasley Twins, born on April Fool's Day, protect and guide Harry in very profound ways:
When the rest of the Hogwarts suspect Harry as the Heir of Slytherin, the Twins shield him with irony, stand beside him.
The Twins defend Harry from the Black Bludger, especially the bludger rigged to knock him out.
Harry encounters the three balls of Quidditch which are the three main alchemical Colors: The Rubio/Red Quaffle, the Nigredo/black Bludger, the Golden Snitch.
Harry encounters the Quaffle most directly (so far as this rereading) in Book Three, by chasing the entire Slytherin quidditch team away from Angelina singlehandedly so she can score with the Quaffle.
Back to the Weasley Twins: They provide Harry with the Marauder's Map, his father's guide to the Hogwarts Underground.
The Twins will, of course, go on to completely circumvent Delores Umbridge in Book Five. Go Gred and Forge.
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Archangel - Dec 14, 2004 9:48 pm (#840 of 1121)
"Harry is able to continue the match, but is interrupted by the dementors. Cedric catches the snitch. Harry falls from a great height, yet is unscathed. (His magical ability to withstand physical stress grows stronger). " -- Hollywand
This made me think about Cedric's role in the whole series. Cedric wasn't supposed to catch the snitch if Harry didn't fall off his broom. This won the match for Hufflepuff but Gryffindor still won the Quidditch Cup and everyone sort of agreed, even Cedric, that it was a hollow victory.
In GOF, Cedric wasn't supposed to touch the cup if Harry didn't insist that he share it with him. Although this meant victory for Hogwarts, Harry felt that it was a hollow victory since Cedric was killed and everyone really gave him a hard time during the whole tournament.
Was the Triwizard Cup gold or silver? In any case, it appears Cedric found "fool's gold" or false enlightenment twice. He never completed his journey because of things that are beyond his control. The Boy Who Was Interrupted?
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Hollywand - Dec 15, 2004 7:34 am (#841 of 1121)
Hi Archangel. The issues you raise about Cedric are right on and relevant. There is some discussion about Cedric earlier in this thread and Book Four: Cedric is the peer who dies, Cedric is in the maze with Harry, encounters water, the spider, the dragon, the cup. It seems that Cedric is the first black Nigredo image Harry encounters personally (but there is a dragon reference involving Draco in Book One).
Harry is jealous of Cedric's relationship with Cho, of Cedric's Quidditch abilities. Cedric is a very fair and admirable character. His death is a pointed tragedy identified as a spiritual gateway by Dumbledore.
Harry explores his feelings about Cedric's death: Harry becomes conscious witness of death, his ambiguous feelings toward Cedric are explored, the notion of responsibility for his death, and why Harry did not die instead.
In Book Five during Occulmency, Snape immediately taps into Cedric's death, the dragon is mentioned again, Harry is brought to his knees. His second Nigredo awaits just a few chapters aways with the death of Sirius Black.
Great point about both the Quidditch Match and the Triwizard Cup being a hollow victory.
One detail I don't understand about Rowling's Iconography, and perhaps others have ideas on this:
Cedric is a Hufflepuff, I believe, which suggests dragons. But the Hufflepuff icon is a badger? What?
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Elanor - Dec 15, 2004 7:50 am (#842 of 1121)
Very interesting thoughts everyone!
I have searched and the Goblet of Fire is described as a "large, roughly hewn wooden cup. It would have been entirely unremarkable, had it not been full to the brim with dancing, blue-white flames." (GoF, p.225). Interesting that it is a wooden one, I would love to know what wood it is made of... A wooden cup full of flames that doesn't burn, beware! There is more about that wood that we know as there was more about the tournament that we knew then. It could be a way to say that one shouldn't trust the appearances...
Great details about the Quidditch balls and the twins Hollywand, you've been really busy! In a way, the twins are a perfect alchemical image since they are two but one at the same time.
Archangel was speaking of "fool's gold" and the twins, born on April fool's day were wronged by Bagman's fool's gold at the beginning of GoF. Hmm... We already said that Peeves could be connected to the Fool's Tarot card, the twins certainly too. And they are the only students Peeves ever obeyed in OotP. Should we see Fred, George and Peeves as a kind of "triad of chaos" that allows the truth to be known?
I wanted to restart my reread today, but I'm afraid it will have to wait for the weekend now. At least, as I will have some more time I will appreciate it even better I guess! Archangel, Zelmia, have you started it already?
EDIT: hi Hollywand! You posted when I was writing! I wonder a lot about the badger too. The only symbolical reference I have seen till now is the badger traditionally associated with the representation of the miserliness sin, which can't be the right association for Hufflepuff.
The only other possibility I have seen is about heraldry. In heraldry, quadrupeds are a reference to the 4 elements. This could fit better since the Hufflepuffs have some qualities from each other houses. The arms are very often eloquent: a lion for the Leon... Could there be a pun with the name badger that would be connected with Hufflepuff?
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Hollywand - Dec 15, 2004 8:19 am (#843 of 1121)
hi Elanor!
I'm stumped on the badger. I will keep looking for references---I bet they are in Hagrid's Hut somewhere......
Great advancement on the Twins and Fool's Gold! Something tells me Fred and George will return to the story with a vengance after their hilarious exit from Hogwarts. The Catherine Wheel.
Also and interesting detail to notice, that the flames in the Goblet of Fire are blue-white----could this be the type of flame Hermione has mastered?
Crookshanks, the golden orange ginger cat and organic sneakoscope, sits directly over the heart of Sirius Black during most of the closing sequences in the Shrieking Shack. Interesting association again with the cat as a gateway signifier.
I did find the stone in the Shrieking Shack sequence---Ron picks up a stone, and throws it at Crookshanks to defend Scabbers.
Ron assumes the angle of repose at this juncture,with his leg broken by Sirius. Actually, I suppose his leg is broken by the Whomping Willow, curious that he has had two violent encounters with that tree and he now has a willow wand. And of course, Lily's wand was willow. Hmm.
The description of Azkaban in Book Three leads me to wonder if this is one of our destinations in the final books: on a tiny island, surrounded by chilly water. Yikes.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 15, 2004 8:53 am (#844 of 1121)
Hmm... Badger - Description - This stout, shaggy animal is the largest of the weasel family with only the wolverine exceeding it's size. Help any?
Edit: They are burrowers, suggesting steady workers. A very ferocious animal, the badger has few enemies. They also eat birds, invertebrates, and carrion and are fond of rattlesnake; they are apparently unharmed by the venom unless the snake strikes its nose. And in their native grasslands are vital in controlling rodent populations. Sounds like a Hufflepuff to me :-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 15, 2004 10:43 am (#845 of 1121)
Anna-Marie Ferguson in her work A Keeper of Words: Legend the Arthurian Tarot (Ferguson 2000),she reinforces the ideas articulated above by stating that any experiences with a badger prior to a battle was considered a good portent.
In folklore, the badger has come to symbolize strength and courage --the two qualities that have earned the animal much respects. The badger retains its early formidable reputation in more recent works such as Kenneth Grahame's The Wind in the Willows. Here, the badger is the established authority and the respected resident of the Wild Wood whom the other creatures depend upon for guidance, strength, and protection. To encounter a badger before a battle would be considered a a favourable omen, portending bravery and endurance. The badger represents resisting panic, surrmounting one's fears, and guarding that which one holds dear.
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Archangel - Dec 16, 2004 3:54 am (#846 of 1121)
"The badger represents resisting panic, surrmounting one's fears, and guarding that which one holds dear. " -- Nathan
The last trait stood out for me -- guarding that which one holds dear. Didn't JKR make a distinction that Hufflepuff common room is a cellar and not a dungeon?
"Cellar (n) a subterranean vault (1 Chr. 27:28), a storehouse. The word is also used to denote the treasury of the temple (1 Kings 7:51) and of the king (14:26). The Hebrew word is rendered "garner" in Joel 1:17, and "armoury" in Jer. 50:25."
Hufflepuffs could be keepers of what? Isn't it that loyalty is a trait associated to this house? Hufflepuffs then could be ideal "Secret-Keepers". Hmmm... has a Fidelius Charm been performed to Hufflepuff Head of Houses over time to protect a something? Perhaps the location of Hogwarts? Hmmm.
Cellars are also were provisions are usually kept. This is quite apt since Hufflepuffs have been described as hard workers. Prof. Sprout teaches Herbology which is basically Botany with a little bit of gardening on the side. Fruits and vegetables then? Crops planted at Hogwarts?
I did a research on the types of sieges that can be done to a castle since this might happen in the next two books and came across this:
"There were three ways to take a castle. The first is not to attack the castle at all - just avoid the castle altogether and seize the lands around it. The second is direct assault, or laying siege to the castle. The last is besieging........ The third method, called besieging, would require the enemy to wait and starve the castle garrison into surrender. This method was preferred by an attacking side."
Perhaps the most "overlooked" House will finally get the chance to shine and finally receive the recognition they truly deserve. What do you think?
SIDE NOTE: Elanor, to answer your question, unfortunately I haven't started my XXXth re-read because of work but I'd do so once I go on vacation for the Holidays!
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 7:04 am (#847 of 1121)
Thanks everyone, these are wonderful contributions.
All I could think of the regarding the badger were its tremendously long claws.
I remember seeing a badger in captivity as a child and thinking, "Wow, I understand where the expression 'Don't badger me!" Gets its meaning."
To your point, Archangel, it seems relevant that Jo stipulated the difference in architecture. Great background information on capturing castles. Your theory strongly suggests where Rowling may be going with the House Elves as part of the plot.
I had real difficulty understanding where the Elves could fit in within the overall story. Great idea.
Given the courage related associations with the badger, then perhaps it would make sense that Cedric the Hufflepuff would return from beyond the veil within Harry's memory as an omen of the approaching battle in the Department of Mysteries in Book Five.
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Elanor - Dec 16, 2004 12:25 pm (#848 of 1121)
A cellar! Of course! This was such an important place in a castle in the Middle-Ages, as it was in abbeys which were often as fortified as castles. In abbeys, the "cellerier" (the one in charge of the cellar, I will call him "cellar-man" since my dictionary doesn't know the "cellerier" word) was one of the most important person of the abbey, and the same office existed in castles.
It had to be a someone on who you could rely because he had a lot of things in his charge. He was indeed in charge of the provisions for the whole community but it was only part of his work. Seignories and abbeys worked just the same: they lived from the work of their lands and the "cellar-man" was the one in charge of the lands: he was to collect taxes, take care of harvests, grape harvests... In a word, he was the one who ran the seignory. If he was selfish and only wanted to line his pockets, it was an easy thing to do but often the whole seignory, and its inhabitants, were in a very bad situation when hard times came.
But if he was good, wise and faithful, the seignory would be well run, the cellars would be full and the castle ready for everything, though his tedious and patient work would have hardly been noticed from the outside. This sounds really like Hufflepuff to me!
But even if his work was in the background, Lords, if they were wise, knew better and knew what they owned to that man and how precious he was in reality. Just as Hufflepuffs seem to be unnoticed but are still here, working for the good in the background.
BTW, I just thought that cellars were the place where the wine was stored too! They keep the "water of life" safe. Hmm...
Once, we said that Hogwarts could be seen as a body, from an alchemical point of view, in that case, Hufflepuffs cellars would be Hogwart's belly, with its kitchens. Hence, the greater role house-elves will have to play in the future. I love that!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 16, 2004 12:28 pm (#849 of 1121)
The badger references remind me a great deal of Molly Prewett Weasley as such is possible that qualities which placed her Gryffindor as a student have evolved as result of the first war with Voldemort in such way she now exmplifies a Hufflepuff.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:23 pm (#850 of 1121)
Yikes, Elanor, your description sounds like Keeper of the Keys, and wouldn't that be Hagrid?
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Wow, Hollywand, you've been busy I see! Great connections! I loved the mirror references, I had missed most of them. I'm dying to start this reread myself to compare our thoughts about it. I will try and start it tonight, but I am a rather slow reader in English when I want to miss nothing, so I'm afraid it will be only by some chapters in a row. I'm sorry I can't do it faster, why on earth is there something called "work" one must go to?
Nathan, this is very interesting! The 7 colours are part of the system of connections used by alchemists: the 7 planets, the 7 metals, the 7 parts of the body, the 7 notes of the octave... All of them were bound for them. I can't remember where I read it for now, but I am almost sure I have read somewhere that Newton's work about Optics is very impregnated with that way of thinking as he was an alchemist. I will search if I can find the exact quote about that if you want.
I was thinking again to Charlie's birthday, so bound to the number 12 and wondering if, as he is very bound to the dragons, it could be a hint to the 12 uses of Dragon's blood. He might be the one that could provide the Order with Dragon blood, if one of the 12 uses of it should be needed in the next books. We have heard about Dragon blood a lot, but never really saw it used if I remember well, it should be time now, shouldn't it?
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 12:39 pm (#827 of 1121)
Hi Elanor! A couple more details I will call your attention to on the Book One reading:
Draco and the dragon: Draco gets held back by Minerva. Draco tries to betray Harry and Hermione, paired beneath the cloak of invisibility, as they attempt to hand off Norbert to four of Charlie's flying friends from the North Towers. Harry/Draco and Hermione must then travel into the Forbidden Forest to discover who is murdering unicorns.
Ottery St. Catchpol: Chickens are mentioned three times at the Burrow. and Arthur makes a misstep, tripped by a chicken carrying Ginny's trunk. Interesting?
References to cats: Many of the key junctures in the story involve cats, and they seem very ambiguous. Minerva, Mrs. Norris---I can't wait to read the rest of the series to see how the iconography of the cat unfolds.
Take your time, Elanor, on the reread, I'm just writing out my observations so I don't forget them whilst I am deeply immersed in the Potter universe.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 13, 2004 12:49 pm (#828 of 1121)
In the spectrum produced as white light is passed through the prism. the color green, the color of both Lily and Harry eyes is the central color in the rainbow with 3 colors before it and 3 colors after it.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 1:21 pm (#829 of 1121)
In NeoPlatonic theory used in the Renaissance, the colors of the spectrum represented levels of spiritual enlightenment. Violet was the outer ring, progressing to yellow=gold as closest to god.
Angels are often depicted by rank with these colors on their wings. This color referencing can be found in the wings of the angels of Jan Van Eyck, Raphael Sanzio, Michelangelo and Botticelli. My particular favorite is the resurrection panel of the Isenhiem Altarpiece by Mattias Gothart, aka Grunewald.
Grunewald's Isenheim altarpiece was painted for a monastery that treated victims of ergot poisioning. Ergot is a mold that grows on rye. Evidently rye was grown and molded and made into a delicious paste (I am being ironic here). Ingesting the mold caused hallucinations, numbness in the limbs and eventually death. The gorgeous halos in the Isenheim altarpiece are thought to parallel the halos one would see in the last stages of ergot poisioning. MMMMM. Pilgrims thought they were receiving the visions of St Anthony.
When Archangel on our thread appears, I think of Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer, the three traditionally mentioned in Christian iconography as archangels. Hello Archangel. ;-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 13, 2004 2:56 pm (#830 of 1121)
Speaking of angels. In the Midrash a book of Jewish lore that is an text used to explain the Torah.
God sits on a throne surrounded by four archangels Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel.
Here is the link to the Encyclopedia Mythica entry on Uriel.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 7:48 pm (#831 of 1121)
Some interesting additional details from The Chamber of Secrets:
When Colin is petrified, he has a bundle of grapes in his hand; this would seem to be a symbolic connection with Mercury, this god holds grapes---an makes a connection with Harry's wine-producing wand, and Hermione's vine/Wine wand.
When Hermione is petrified, she holds a small round mirror, to me a strong reference to Mercury, both as messenger and quicksilver, and the key message that solves the mystery of the book; Harry reaches beyond her state of repose, and they communicate.
Hermione is transformed into a giant black cat, which she is very ashamed of, a real failure of her whole plan of revenge on Draco for calling her a Mudblood. Nigredo for Hermione.
Harry shuts his eyes at a key juncture in the battle against the Basilisk. His gaze, his mother's eyes may in fact be one of his strongest weapons in the future.
Music and alchemy: The song of the Phoenix. Harry hears the song in the chamber before Fawkes appears. Fawkes' song appears again later in the Goblet of Fire.
A Time exchange: Tom Riddle points out to Harry the Lord Voldemort is his past, present and future. The diary is Tom/Voldemort's past.
His question to Harry: "How could you have defeated me in what is now your (Harry's) past, and my (Tom's) future?"
Time exchange---by destroying the diary, Harry is erasing Tom Riddle, Voldemort's past. I would argue that Harry erases even more of Voldemort's past with the A Priori Incantum. It's a matter of time, until Harry completely erases Voldemort.
This is what Dumbledore means by saying at the close of Book One that if Voldemort's return can be delayed and delayed, he may never return to power at all.
Harry may not conventionally kill Voldemort, he may slowly erase the events of his life until Voldemort doesn't exist anymore.
Harry took the future from Voldemort by smashing the Prophecy.
Harry impales the Basilk with Godric's Sword, and takes a blood bath, exchange with the snake. His blood bath/venom exchange is his rubedo process in the Chamber of Secrets. He then takes the fang of the Basilk, and impales Tom's Diary's Heart, destroying its core history.
Tom Marvolo Riddle (3)/ I am Lord Voldemort (4) a seven exchange performed with Harry's wand---the process is being reversed in the name of the wizard, by the Dark Lord himself.
Harry encounters Fawkes in Chapter Twelve, ecounters Tom Riddle in Chapter 13 TMRiddle----Mort with a single circle omitted---alchemical symbol for the green lion.
Oh, it's probably just a coincidence.......
Ironcially, the only Dark Art the trio learn during the second year is from Severus, and that's how to disarm others: "Expelliarmus".
Severus sets a black snake upon Harry to humilitate him, yet ends up discovering that Harry has quite a lot of power over snakes.....
More references to chickens here, as the Basilisk can be killed by the crowing of a rooster, Hagrid loses two of his roosters.
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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 9:19 pm (#832 of 1121)
I find it interesting that Rowling has recently taken the time to stipulate that Hermione is a year older than had previously been indicated on the existing time line. Could this be a clue that Hermione may have a romantic interest in her near future?
So much fuss has been made over Harry's romantic interests, I had forgotten that it is Hermione that first develops a crush---on Gilderoy Lockhart. Of course even the name shouts narcissism, and he certainly is an illusory love and not a very good wizard.
We all get taken with Harry's interest, and Cho turns out to be the white swan, another illusion.
Hermione then develops a quiet attachment to Krum, and a rather noisy attachment to Ron.
I was struck in Book Five by Harry's budding jealousy of Ron and Hermionie being alone without him---he seems to feel rather left out, and perhaps imagine they might be a little too close for his comfort. Perhaps these are his own feelings developing?
In Book One, Hermione specializes in a blue flame that can be started in water---and this flame makes another appearance in transforming the Polyjuice Potion. Will her blue flame figure in a future scenario that involves water? Water? Otter? Nah.
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Archangel - Dec 13, 2004 9:19 pm (#833 of 1121)
Wow you've been busy!!! Very interesting connections all around. I like the green = central color connection Nathan. Hollywand, the color and angels connections are fascinating as well.
In earlier part of this thread, I made a connection between Michael's shield and the GG's sword and alchemy's magical sword. Michael is the leader of the celestial army against the rebellious angels. Lucifer and Gabriel are seraphims (the fiery ones!), the highest order of angels. Interesting that in the link that Nathan provided, the word seraph is associated to Hebrew noun, saraph meaning "fiery, flying serpent"! Fiery + flying + serpent = Mercury!
OK, not sure if you have noticed this but in the past 5 books, Harry always begins in a lying position ("dead" position). In PS/SS, we are first introduced to him as a sleeping baby left as the Dursleys' step and then years later, sleeping in the cupboard under the stairs. In GoF, although it opened with a "flashback"/"dream" chapter, Harry is introduced to us as being awoken by the pain that he felt with his scar. In OoP, although he wasn't in his room, we find him in the shrubs lying underneath his uncle and aunt's window listening to the news.
Also, interesting that I didn't see this before, but in the PoA scene wherein Hermione punches Draco, she first pointed her wand at him. If you zoom in on the wand, you'd see vines at the base of the wand! Not sure though if JKR specifically told the props people to make her wand look like that or not perhaps they got it right by "sheer dumb luck"
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 9:47 am (#834 of 1121)
More mercury/silver mirror associations with Book One:
Mrs. Norris, the cat, is frozen by reflection on the water.
Colin holds a bunch of grapes, but also a camera. The camera is a sort of mirror image maker. Silver affixes the image. Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, and vapor issues forth.
Justin is frozen with Nearly Headless Nick, the ghost. Ghosts are described throughout this book as flushing silver.
Hermione is frozen in conjunction with Penelope (wife of Ulyssess) Clearwater. Associations with Hermione and water are repeated throughout the series. Penelope is the partner of Percy. Hmmmm.
I mentioned earlier that Time Exchange seems to be a theme of the books. Harry transcends time by erasing Tom Riddle's diary. Hermione transcends time with her Time Turner, a gift made possible by Minerva. Hermione takes Harry with her in an alternate time, to erase the execution of the Hippogriff and Sirius. Together Harry and Hermione release the Hippogriff and Sirius, and a bond is forged between Buckbeak and Sirius.
The encounter with Lupin and the Dementor on the train to Hogwarts is loaded with color symbolism. The sky through the window is grey, then black. Lupin awakes brandishing a flame, repels the Dementor with silver, dispenses nourishment to Harry.
I just love this story.
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 10:36 am (#835 of 1121)
Arthur Weasley is fascinated with Muggles, and their instruments.
Arthur is talented at taking Muggle instruments and magicking them up for his own use.
Arthur meets and adores the Grangers, and insists on sharing alcohol with them at the Leaky Cauldron
Arthur has a very noisy argument with Lucius in Florish and Blotts with Lucius over Mudbloods in front of the Grangers. Punches Lucius and is ejected from the store.
Hmmm. Something tells me that Arthur and the Grangers may get together to do something that is both Magic and Muggle, perhaps involving mercury, since the Grangers are dentists. Hmmm.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 14, 2004 11:52 am (#836 of 1121)
The NASA website has the following statement regarding violet light
The visible violet light has a wavelength of about 400 nm. Within the visible wavelength spectrum, violet and blue wavelengths are scattered more efficiently than other wavelengths. The sky looks blue, not violet, because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light (the sun also emits more energy as blue light than as violet).
The portion about being less visible (discernable) to human eyes has interesting implications as it could possibly relate to the character of Severus Snape, Albus Dumbledore, and Aberforth Dumbledore.
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Elanor - Dec 14, 2004 12:34 pm (#837 of 1121)
Very interesting Hollywand! I had never noticed there were so many references to mirrors in the books!
For my part, I have started the reread of PS and I was struck with some references that I had ever noticed before from the first chapter.
The first wizard we meet is McGonagall, as a cat sitting on 4 PD's wall. In alchemy, the cat is a solar symbol. It leads the alchemist to the Philosopher's stone. In a way, Mc Gonagall as a cat here, is the first reference to the stone in the book. Symbolically, the cat leads thus to truth, and Mc Gonagall is here to hear the truth from DD.
The first thing we see DD do in PS is to use the Put-Outer 12 times. In the same chapter, it is also said that his golden watch has 12 hands. DD connected twice with the number 12 from the very first chapter is very interesting.
But what I found the most interesting was that the first other wizard we hear about in that first chapter is Dedalus Dingle. Dedalus! The one who built the maze for the Minotaur. The one who told Ariadne to give Theseus a thread if she wanted him to escape from the maze. The one who, afterwards, was sentenced to be locked up inside the maze with his son Icarus. The one who made some wings for his son and himself to escape the maze: his son flew too high, the wax melt and he felt, but Dedalus escaped.
So, we have our very first reference to the maze in the very first chapter! If I remember well, Harry will meet him at the Leaky Cauldron afterwards, just before he will enter the "maze" of the wizarding world! Oh my, I can't believe I didn't see it before!
At that time of the reread, I thought I was doing it the wrong way: I need a notebook and to organize the references I will find whereas it will be too difficult. So, I'm going to start again tomorrow, with the right equipment this time!
BTW, I loved the colours/angels connections too! They reminded me that Fleur's sister was called Gabrielle, from the same archangel you mentioned.
Great remark about the lying positions Archangel! Another note to put in my notebook... I'd better choose it big tomorrow...
EDIT: great work Nathan! And the first time we meet DD in PS, he is wearing a purple cloak. The ingredients are all already there, the potion is on fire, ready to bubble!
BTW, have the other re-readers (is that English?) started their researches as well?
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 1:12 pm (#838 of 1121)
Great additions to understanding the iconography everyone.
I am gripped by Book Three
I like Severus a lot less than I used to, he's pretty mean toward Lupin, who doesn't deserve it....
Harry's encounters with the Dementors are loaded with icy water. During his Quidditch match with the Hufflepuffs, he must ascend into a lightining storm, he sees Sirius below, in his animagus form. Harry is blinded by the water and electricity.
Hermione appears from nowhere and transforms his glasses, making them impervious to water. Will these magically protected glasses figure in the final battle?
Harry is able to continue the match, but is interrupted by the dementors. Cedric catches the snitch. Harry falls from a great height, yet is unscathed. (His magical ability to withstand physical stress grows stronger).
In Divination, Harry tells Ron he will attain the sun. Hmm.
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Hollywand - Dec 14, 2004 7:23 pm (#839 of 1121)
The Weasley Twins, born on April Fool's Day, protect and guide Harry in very profound ways:
When the rest of the Hogwarts suspect Harry as the Heir of Slytherin, the Twins shield him with irony, stand beside him.
The Twins defend Harry from the Black Bludger, especially the bludger rigged to knock him out.
Harry encounters the three balls of Quidditch which are the three main alchemical Colors: The Rubio/Red Quaffle, the Nigredo/black Bludger, the Golden Snitch.
Harry encounters the Quaffle most directly (so far as this rereading) in Book Three, by chasing the entire Slytherin quidditch team away from Angelina singlehandedly so she can score with the Quaffle.
Back to the Weasley Twins: They provide Harry with the Marauder's Map, his father's guide to the Hogwarts Underground.
The Twins will, of course, go on to completely circumvent Delores Umbridge in Book Five. Go Gred and Forge.
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Archangel - Dec 14, 2004 9:48 pm (#840 of 1121)
"Harry is able to continue the match, but is interrupted by the dementors. Cedric catches the snitch. Harry falls from a great height, yet is unscathed. (His magical ability to withstand physical stress grows stronger). " -- Hollywand
This made me think about Cedric's role in the whole series. Cedric wasn't supposed to catch the snitch if Harry didn't fall off his broom. This won the match for Hufflepuff but Gryffindor still won the Quidditch Cup and everyone sort of agreed, even Cedric, that it was a hollow victory.
In GOF, Cedric wasn't supposed to touch the cup if Harry didn't insist that he share it with him. Although this meant victory for Hogwarts, Harry felt that it was a hollow victory since Cedric was killed and everyone really gave him a hard time during the whole tournament.
Was the Triwizard Cup gold or silver? In any case, it appears Cedric found "fool's gold" or false enlightenment twice. He never completed his journey because of things that are beyond his control. The Boy Who Was Interrupted?
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Hollywand - Dec 15, 2004 7:34 am (#841 of 1121)
Hi Archangel. The issues you raise about Cedric are right on and relevant. There is some discussion about Cedric earlier in this thread and Book Four: Cedric is the peer who dies, Cedric is in the maze with Harry, encounters water, the spider, the dragon, the cup. It seems that Cedric is the first black Nigredo image Harry encounters personally (but there is a dragon reference involving Draco in Book One).
Harry is jealous of Cedric's relationship with Cho, of Cedric's Quidditch abilities. Cedric is a very fair and admirable character. His death is a pointed tragedy identified as a spiritual gateway by Dumbledore.
Harry explores his feelings about Cedric's death: Harry becomes conscious witness of death, his ambiguous feelings toward Cedric are explored, the notion of responsibility for his death, and why Harry did not die instead.
In Book Five during Occulmency, Snape immediately taps into Cedric's death, the dragon is mentioned again, Harry is brought to his knees. His second Nigredo awaits just a few chapters aways with the death of Sirius Black.
Great point about both the Quidditch Match and the Triwizard Cup being a hollow victory.
One detail I don't understand about Rowling's Iconography, and perhaps others have ideas on this:
Cedric is a Hufflepuff, I believe, which suggests dragons. But the Hufflepuff icon is a badger? What?
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Elanor - Dec 15, 2004 7:50 am (#842 of 1121)
Very interesting thoughts everyone!
I have searched and the Goblet of Fire is described as a "large, roughly hewn wooden cup. It would have been entirely unremarkable, had it not been full to the brim with dancing, blue-white flames." (GoF, p.225). Interesting that it is a wooden one, I would love to know what wood it is made of... A wooden cup full of flames that doesn't burn, beware! There is more about that wood that we know as there was more about the tournament that we knew then. It could be a way to say that one shouldn't trust the appearances...
Great details about the Quidditch balls and the twins Hollywand, you've been really busy! In a way, the twins are a perfect alchemical image since they are two but one at the same time.
Archangel was speaking of "fool's gold" and the twins, born on April fool's day were wronged by Bagman's fool's gold at the beginning of GoF. Hmm... We already said that Peeves could be connected to the Fool's Tarot card, the twins certainly too. And they are the only students Peeves ever obeyed in OotP. Should we see Fred, George and Peeves as a kind of "triad of chaos" that allows the truth to be known?
I wanted to restart my reread today, but I'm afraid it will have to wait for the weekend now. At least, as I will have some more time I will appreciate it even better I guess! Archangel, Zelmia, have you started it already?
EDIT: hi Hollywand! You posted when I was writing! I wonder a lot about the badger too. The only symbolical reference I have seen till now is the badger traditionally associated with the representation of the miserliness sin, which can't be the right association for Hufflepuff.
The only other possibility I have seen is about heraldry. In heraldry, quadrupeds are a reference to the 4 elements. This could fit better since the Hufflepuffs have some qualities from each other houses. The arms are very often eloquent: a lion for the Leon... Could there be a pun with the name badger that would be connected with Hufflepuff?
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Hollywand - Dec 15, 2004 8:19 am (#843 of 1121)
hi Elanor!
I'm stumped on the badger. I will keep looking for references---I bet they are in Hagrid's Hut somewhere......
Great advancement on the Twins and Fool's Gold! Something tells me Fred and George will return to the story with a vengance after their hilarious exit from Hogwarts. The Catherine Wheel.
Also and interesting detail to notice, that the flames in the Goblet of Fire are blue-white----could this be the type of flame Hermione has mastered?
Crookshanks, the golden orange ginger cat and organic sneakoscope, sits directly over the heart of Sirius Black during most of the closing sequences in the Shrieking Shack. Interesting association again with the cat as a gateway signifier.
I did find the stone in the Shrieking Shack sequence---Ron picks up a stone, and throws it at Crookshanks to defend Scabbers.
Ron assumes the angle of repose at this juncture,with his leg broken by Sirius. Actually, I suppose his leg is broken by the Whomping Willow, curious that he has had two violent encounters with that tree and he now has a willow wand. And of course, Lily's wand was willow. Hmm.
The description of Azkaban in Book Three leads me to wonder if this is one of our destinations in the final books: on a tiny island, surrounded by chilly water. Yikes.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 15, 2004 8:53 am (#844 of 1121)
Hmm... Badger - Description - This stout, shaggy animal is the largest of the weasel family with only the wolverine exceeding it's size. Help any?
Edit: They are burrowers, suggesting steady workers. A very ferocious animal, the badger has few enemies. They also eat birds, invertebrates, and carrion and are fond of rattlesnake; they are apparently unharmed by the venom unless the snake strikes its nose. And in their native grasslands are vital in controlling rodent populations. Sounds like a Hufflepuff to me :-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 15, 2004 10:43 am (#845 of 1121)
Anna-Marie Ferguson in her work A Keeper of Words: Legend the Arthurian Tarot (Ferguson 2000),she reinforces the ideas articulated above by stating that any experiences with a badger prior to a battle was considered a good portent.
In folklore, the badger has come to symbolize strength and courage --the two qualities that have earned the animal much respects. The badger retains its early formidable reputation in more recent works such as Kenneth Grahame's The Wind in the Willows. Here, the badger is the established authority and the respected resident of the Wild Wood whom the other creatures depend upon for guidance, strength, and protection. To encounter a badger before a battle would be considered a a favourable omen, portending bravery and endurance. The badger represents resisting panic, surrmounting one's fears, and guarding that which one holds dear.
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Archangel - Dec 16, 2004 3:54 am (#846 of 1121)
"The badger represents resisting panic, surrmounting one's fears, and guarding that which one holds dear. " -- Nathan
The last trait stood out for me -- guarding that which one holds dear. Didn't JKR make a distinction that Hufflepuff common room is a cellar and not a dungeon?
"Cellar (n) a subterranean vault (1 Chr. 27:28), a storehouse. The word is also used to denote the treasury of the temple (1 Kings 7:51) and of the king (14:26). The Hebrew word is rendered "garner" in Joel 1:17, and "armoury" in Jer. 50:25."
Hufflepuffs could be keepers of what? Isn't it that loyalty is a trait associated to this house? Hufflepuffs then could be ideal "Secret-Keepers". Hmmm... has a Fidelius Charm been performed to Hufflepuff Head of Houses over time to protect a something? Perhaps the location of Hogwarts? Hmmm.
Cellars are also were provisions are usually kept. This is quite apt since Hufflepuffs have been described as hard workers. Prof. Sprout teaches Herbology which is basically Botany with a little bit of gardening on the side. Fruits and vegetables then? Crops planted at Hogwarts?
I did a research on the types of sieges that can be done to a castle since this might happen in the next two books and came across this:
"There were three ways to take a castle. The first is not to attack the castle at all - just avoid the castle altogether and seize the lands around it. The second is direct assault, or laying siege to the castle. The last is besieging........ The third method, called besieging, would require the enemy to wait and starve the castle garrison into surrender. This method was preferred by an attacking side."
Perhaps the most "overlooked" House will finally get the chance to shine and finally receive the recognition they truly deserve. What do you think?
SIDE NOTE: Elanor, to answer your question, unfortunately I haven't started my XXXth re-read because of work but I'd do so once I go on vacation for the Holidays!
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 7:04 am (#847 of 1121)
Thanks everyone, these are wonderful contributions.
All I could think of the regarding the badger were its tremendously long claws.
I remember seeing a badger in captivity as a child and thinking, "Wow, I understand where the expression 'Don't badger me!" Gets its meaning."
To your point, Archangel, it seems relevant that Jo stipulated the difference in architecture. Great background information on capturing castles. Your theory strongly suggests where Rowling may be going with the House Elves as part of the plot.
I had real difficulty understanding where the Elves could fit in within the overall story. Great idea.
Given the courage related associations with the badger, then perhaps it would make sense that Cedric the Hufflepuff would return from beyond the veil within Harry's memory as an omen of the approaching battle in the Department of Mysteries in Book Five.
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Elanor - Dec 16, 2004 12:25 pm (#848 of 1121)
A cellar! Of course! This was such an important place in a castle in the Middle-Ages, as it was in abbeys which were often as fortified as castles. In abbeys, the "cellerier" (the one in charge of the cellar, I will call him "cellar-man" since my dictionary doesn't know the "cellerier" word) was one of the most important person of the abbey, and the same office existed in castles.
It had to be a someone on who you could rely because he had a lot of things in his charge. He was indeed in charge of the provisions for the whole community but it was only part of his work. Seignories and abbeys worked just the same: they lived from the work of their lands and the "cellar-man" was the one in charge of the lands: he was to collect taxes, take care of harvests, grape harvests... In a word, he was the one who ran the seignory. If he was selfish and only wanted to line his pockets, it was an easy thing to do but often the whole seignory, and its inhabitants, were in a very bad situation when hard times came.
But if he was good, wise and faithful, the seignory would be well run, the cellars would be full and the castle ready for everything, though his tedious and patient work would have hardly been noticed from the outside. This sounds really like Hufflepuff to me!
But even if his work was in the background, Lords, if they were wise, knew better and knew what they owned to that man and how precious he was in reality. Just as Hufflepuffs seem to be unnoticed but are still here, working for the good in the background.
BTW, I just thought that cellars were the place where the wine was stored too! They keep the "water of life" safe. Hmm...
Once, we said that Hogwarts could be seen as a body, from an alchemical point of view, in that case, Hufflepuffs cellars would be Hogwart's belly, with its kitchens. Hence, the greater role house-elves will have to play in the future. I love that!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 16, 2004 12:28 pm (#849 of 1121)
The badger references remind me a great deal of Molly Prewett Weasley as such is possible that qualities which placed her Gryffindor as a student have evolved as result of the first war with Voldemort in such way she now exmplifies a Hufflepuff.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:23 pm (#850 of 1121)
Yikes, Elanor, your description sounds like Keeper of the Keys, and wouldn't that be Hagrid?
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 851 to 875)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:09 am
Elanor - Dec 16, 2004 1:40 pm (#851 of 1121)
That is true too Hollywand, and didn't DD said he would trust Hagrid with his life?
But Hagrid could also be seen as the "Porter": the one who was in charge of the entrance, and inside, keys of the fortified place, was it castle or abbey. When the doors were locked, for the night or when there was possible danger, he was the one who had to judge if he could let someone come inside the place or not. In fact, he was in charge of the safety of the place and kept an eye on what was going on in the neighbourhood: wild animals, marauders... The cellar-man is was more an administrator of the estates of the seignory. In fact, their roles complement each other.
EDIT: that is an interesting thought Nathan. Aren't badgers and weasels somehow related?
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:54 pm (#852 of 1121)
Harry Holidays, everyone! Thanks for making my holiday break achemystical and magickal! A golden gracious 2005 to all!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 16, 2004 2:15 pm (#853 of 1121)
Elanor, yes badgers and weasels are in the same family of animals.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 4:10 pm (#854 of 1121)
More interesting details about:
Splinched: when Rowling first describes it on page 66 of the Goblet of Fire, two figures attempt appartating, and end up with their bodies conjoined and mixed up. Interesting to me that this is a key alchemical transformational symbol.
Time: The Pensieve is a memory as an intact sort of chunk of time. Memory, while in the Pensieve, can be intruded upon by another viewer, (Harry) and the viewer will see a review of the entire event, not necessarily from the Point of View of the owner.
Time: The Portkey, when first mentioned, also on page 66 of the Goblet of Fire, mentions that time is a critical element to making the Portkey work. Hmmm.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 5:35 pm (#855 of 1121)
Elanor, do you suppose Dumbledore might have hired Dobby to look after the cellar as part of his kitchen duties as a liberated elf? I don't know if I should worry about this or not....
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 7:49 pm (#856 of 1121)
Perhaps another time exchange metaphor?
Harry first sees a large black dog in the (Privet) hedge.
Sibyll sees Sirius as the Grim: Prophecy.
Harry sees Sirius below while he is in the midst of a lighting storm, playing Quidditch.
Sirius, Harry and Hemione are saved by a future Harry and his father patronus hart within.---"I knew I could do it, because I had already seen myself doing it".
Sirius is in an angle of repose at Grimmauld Place.
Sirius is pushed beyond the veil, becomes the Grim.
Sirius as the Grim defends Harry by flooding his heart with grief and love, saving him from Voldemort.
Will Harry encounter Sirius at his parent's gravesite, as the Grim again? Could this be why Rowling says "Sirius had to die?"
Time exchange, prophecy, experience, memory. Hmmm.
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zelmia - Dec 16, 2004 8:35 pm (#857 of 1121)
Elanor (and everyone) I'm starting my re-read now. Well not RIGHT now, but this evening. I am kind of excited, actually.
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Archangel - Dec 17, 2004 7:11 am (#858 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone! I liked the Cellar-Elves-Hagrid connection!
I would like to know more about Hogwarts! The castle has sooooo many secrets and is certainly a major character, not just a setting, in this whole series.
I have a question to the group. Do alchemists believed in the concept of time? Or like Einstein, do they believe that time does not exist and it's just a matter of relativity? Dumbledore seem to have a very "liberal" (is this the right word?) attitude when it comes to time -- waltzing in and out of different timelines.
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Elanor - Dec 17, 2004 12:45 pm (#859 of 1121)
Harry holidays everybody! It seems we will have so much fun rereading and posting during these two weeks, that is so great!
Very interesting question Archangel! I will search tomorrow what I can find about that. At first sight, I would say that time didn't matter a lot for alchemists. Patience was one of the most important virtues an alchemist had to have. The important thing for them was to live the present, to live here and now. The Philosopher's stone was for them an eternal present. I could be mistaken but I think that the principle "one the whole" (the ouroboros, the connection between macrocosm and microcosm) could be applied to time too.
I don't know why, but the fact that alchemists wanted to live the present reminds me of what DD told Harry "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that." But I will search if I can find some more informations about that!
Great thoughts about time Hollywand! About Dobby, well "a good deed never goes amiss" and DD's choice about Dobby has already been positive for Harry, and it will certainly be again, as long as he succeeds in being not overenthusiastic... I'm sure he scares the other house-elfes!
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Hollywand - Dec 17, 2004 7:31 pm (#860 of 1121)
This discussion is such a joy.
Archangel, to reply to your query about time---I would recommend you cast your imagination back to the Ancient Egyptian sense of time for the genesis of references to time in magical works.
The Ancient Egyptians were wonderful with math, but largely applied it in a much more mystical sense. For example, they largely bartered and inventoried, but did not develop a coin and paper money system. Of course their sense of time is deeply bound to the star reading and the regular flood of the Nile River. A society that recogizes man's debt and dependence upon nature much more than our modern society.
Time measurements are bound to astologers and letting your potion sit until a certain celestial body appears. Think of sun dials---um, what happens at night? Water clocks---evaporated water used to measure time, sand, candles. Our concept of time is deeply bound to the Industrial Revolution.
It's no accident that Newton is bound to the linear concept of time. Newton's nemesis John Flamsteed ran the Royal Observatory, and these chaps, along with John Harrison, are why all of us measure time zero from Greenwich.
A cultural legacy I am sure has not escaped JoAnne Katherine Rowling, Drama Queen Extraordinairre.
If you have never visited Greenwich, you must. It's one of the best day trips from London. You can stand at the Zero Time Line, which is now a digital/laser kinda thingy. Harrison's clocks, still dancing away, rival any works of art I have ever seen. The telescopes, so high technology for Newton, Halley and Flamsteed look like an old water heater with a fire escape attached. Difficult to believe they discovered so much with these bizarre looking contraptions. ;-) Go Newt Scamader! Elanor, by the way, I just love your latin translation of Jo's Newt Scamander signature, I think it's a major reference to the alchemical code. Nice sleuthing!
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zelmia - Dec 17, 2004 10:27 pm (#861 of 1121)
PS/SS Chapter 1:
"dull grey Tuesday our story starts..." Tuesday/Mardi - Mars Day. "Psychologically Mars is the assertive and self-determining factor that allows us to survive and express our humanity openly and fearlessly." "In astrology Mars represents the compelling force of action and initiative." Can't help thinking of the later chapter where the centaurs mutter "Mars is bright tonight". Maybe Mars is Harry's ruling planet?
Cat reading a map. Cat = sun. Possible indication of dramatic shift in plot direction. (Certainly applies here).
Vernon sits with his back to the window on the 9th floor. Many things represented in this simple sentence. Basically, Vernon chooses to turn away from Wisdom "He didn't see the owls..." Also: "Abstractly, Number 9 is a highly intuitive and spiritual number, with concerns that reach for a higher plane of expression in some ways than those of the numbers before it." Exactly the opposite of Vernon's attitude.
Seem to make a point of Shooting Stars. The Star card of Tarot: "The Star is the initial spark of hope that arises from the dust when everything around us seems desolate and bleak." Seems fitting...
That's enough for now...
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Archangel - Dec 18, 2004 12:09 am (#862 of 1121)
"Think of sun dials---um, what happens at night?" -- Hollywand
Um...time stands still?
Seriously now, I just finished reading a Physics article describing Einstein's Theory of Relativity and I think I'm coming down with a bad case of migraine. "... awful things have happened when wizards meddled with time..." Imagine what it must be for plain Muggles meddling with Physics!
My one Galleon on time in JKR's world is that while it exists, it is not linear and it is certainly not a "sacred cow" in way that it would discourage wizards from using or abusing it to further their causes and ambitions.
Much as I like the dude, Dumbledore didn't hesitate one bit when he let it slip to Harry and Hermione that what they needed was more time to help Sirius. This has bothered for quite some time now because I somehow get this impression that Dumbledore has seen this whole war through and is just somehow retracing his steps to ensure that victory is achieved. Also, I can't help but recall what Ron said during the chess game when one of their pieces was smashed ("had to let that happen") and the whole Sirius-MoM fiasco.
I need to sleep... is too late to wake the Potion Master and ask him to whip up the Draught of Living Peace? Hmmmm...
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Elanor - Dec 18, 2004 8:10 am (#863 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody!
Zelmia, great connection with the "mars day"! And there is more about it because, if the story starts on a Tuesday, that means that the day Voldemort tried to kill Harry was a Monday: "the moon day", lundi (lunis dies: the day of the Moon). The Moon is bound to the Silver metal: Harry defeated Voldemort on that day, but it was only a silver victory, Voldemort wasn't vanquished for good. When/if he will defeat him at the end of book 7 for good this time, it will be a gold victory (and probably on a Sunday)!
I have read that the name "Tuesday" comes from a german war god, Tyr, which is the same symbol as Mars, the Latin god of war. A battle has been won, but the war is not finished yet.
Great connections about Vernon's office too!
I didn't know about Newton and Greenwich, that is a great detail Hollywand! I have searched for more information about time and alchemy but I have not found something interesting for now, but it still may come!
Archangel, the same thing has bothered me for some time now: why allow Harry and Hermione to go back and save Sirius then and not after the MoM battle? The only thing I have to come up with is that in PoA, it was saving an innocent from a terrible fate and in OotP, it was respecting Sirius' choice when he chose to come and rescue Harry. Choices again...
BTW, I wouldn't wake up our dear Potion master if I were you, "draco dormiens nunquam titillandos"...
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 10:36 am (#864 of 1121)
Zelmia, it think you made a tremendous connection. I couldn't figure out why the series opens on Tuesday. The same day of the week is mentioned later, and I'm thinking, ok, so what's with Tuesday? Poor me, I was thinking of Solomon Grundy ;-) Elanor's additions regarding Monday are perfect.
Also, Zelmia, the additional details regarding Vernon seem right on. I am reminded of Franz Kafka's Parablen und Paradoxa in the drescriptive writing style. Don't think it's just a coincidence, nope.
Archangel, those little emoticons are hilarious! The detail about the Time Turner is interesting....and probably a harbinger....
In reading the Goblet of Fire opening description of Krum, I still feel that Rowling is setting this character up as a romantic rival of Harry's for the attention of......Hg.
A cute detail, but I bet this intrument resurfaces: the OmniOcular. Harry buys this instrument for the trio all at once....interesting bonding moment for the three to have a singular magical vision instrument.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 18, 2004 11:44 am (#865 of 1121)
One little detail that struck me apart from the mentions of Bristol and 4 Privet Drive in the opening chapter of PS was the mention of Kent.
According to Gildas the Wise the Vortigern invited Hengest and his Saxon followers into into England for the purpose of supplementing his armies and using the Saxons, Angles and Jutes to defend against Pict invasions of the lands south of Hadrian's Wall. Traditional lore asserts that upon arriving in England Hengest established the first Saxon Kingdom within the British Isles in Kent on lands granted to him by the Vortigern.
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zelmia - Dec 18, 2004 4:26 pm (#866 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
More on Chapter 1:
Petunia is described as "horse-faced" which we take to mean that she isn't particularly attractive. Interesting that Horses generally symbolise more virtuous traits such as intelligence, nobility, valor, etc. Probably means nothing for our purposes, but then again...
Dumbledore's nose. Appears to have been broken at least twice. She often makes a point of mentioning DD's crooked nose, this is the first time she does so. Not sure this is really anything alchemically related, but seems to be significant in some way.
"twelve times he clicked the Put-Outer..." "twelve hands..." "Twelve balls of light..." Three times mentioning of the number 12. 12th card of the Major Arcana = The Hanged Man.
Dumbledore's watch. Little planets moving around. Too much to mention...
Dumbledore places Harry on the doorstep. Could DD be the Chronos/Saturn figure (Father Time) here, Hollywand?
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 4:53 pm (#867 of 1121)
Gryffindor
Great detail to notice, Zelmia. Dumbledore and Harry in a positive Saturn connection. The stair image, the stage set with the Puter Outer. All of these details fit nicely with Elanor's remarks about Saturn/Chronos, and Dedalus as well.
The broken noses...I was noticing that Ron has his nose broken by Draco. Krum has his nose broken during the Ireland Quidditch match....and the opposing seeker is "Lynch"....I wouldn't think too much of "Lynch" except that Rowling makes a point to mention Little Hangleton, Greater Hangleton, and the bar called The Hanged Man in a The Riddle House, the opening chapter. Now, that's too much repitition, be it assonance or alliteration or rhyming or bad proofreading to be just a coincidence, don't you think? Is Krum also a Hanged Man? He is a Seeker, and excellent flyer, and Harry has been studying his moves carefully.
I bet Krum and Harry face off in another sort of duel, say, in a dragon reserve. The idea of two talented seekers racing through territory loaded with dragons that just happen to be associated with: Copper, Silver, Gold, Lead........oh, I can't wait.....what a wonderful idea.....my broom aflame, here I go, seeking after the snitch...what's the bird that the snitch is based on? Perhaps that bird will also be in the reserve.
Well, if our theories are balderdash, they are very poetic balderdash. ;-)
Curious that Arthur takes the entire Weasley clan (save the Mrs.) to the very top of the stair, the top box at the Quidditch World Cup. So, here you have an connection with the heights and the trio and the Weasleys as a group----could they face off the Death Ethers or a dragon as a family?
I also think I see what Voldemort's end will be, but I don't want to put it out on the thread and risk spoiling the suspense.
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 7:17 pm (#868 of 1121)
Gryffindor
I thought you all might find this little bit interesting, since we had just been talking about Hufflepuffs, badgers and elves.
I direct you to page 237-238 of the Goblet of Fire:
Rowling lays out the house symbols and colours:
Red with a gold lion for Gryffindor: Cinnabar/gold
Blue with bronze eagle for Ravenclaw: Water/ bronze
Yellow with a black badger for Hufflepuff: Sulphur/Nigredo Lead
Green with silver snake for Slytherin: Acid/Silver
The burning and flowing---I had trouble finding references to Sulphur, but believe its right there in Hufflepuff.
Next page, Hermione is "badgering" Ron and Harry about the House Elves, and forcing them to wear badges.
I think we have, together, found a significant association between the badger, the house elves at Hogwarts, and the Hufflepuffs. Go alchemists!
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 8:59 pm (#869 of 1121)
Rowling seems to be binding Harry, Hermione and Krum via their wands, interconnected:
Harry/Holly/Phoenix/ produces a fount of wine/aqua vitae/Seeker
Hermione/Vine(source of wine)/Dragonheart/produces____________/lots of references to water in her character description.
Krum/Hornbeam/Dragonheartsting/produces birds (phoenix reference)/Seeker
Hmmmm.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 19, 2004 11:24 am (#870 of 1121)
To add to my observation about Kent. Kent is also one of the most important areas in terms of religion in the Isles. In about 604 Saint Austin (Augustine) of Canterbury founded the see of Canterbury in Kent. During the middle ages The Archbishop of Canterbury was the senior most religious prelate in England and head of the Catholic Church in England. Following the Reformation in England the see of Canterbury retained its authority with only the Sovereign outranking the Archbishop of Canterbury. But in relations with other bishops the other bihops answer to Canterbury. Today in the both the Anglican and Catholic Churches Canterbury remains the principal seat.
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Elanor - Dec 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#871 of 1121)
Wow, you've been busy everyone!
I have restarted my reread of PS, taking notes this time, not to forget something!
Chapter one
Zelmia already pointed out that 3 times the number 12 is mentioned in the first chapter and I found some more which makes 5 references to the number twelve:
-"it was nearly midnight before the cat moved at all." DD arrives at 12 p.m. at P.D.
-"Twelve times he clicked the Put-Outer"
- DD: "I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here"
- "twelves hands" of DD's watch
- "twelve balls of light"
The number 12 has a lot of interesting connotations, the 12th card of Tarot is indeed very interesting, and there is an alchemical one that is very interesting too. It is bound to a famous alchemy book called "The 12 keys of the Philosophy" attributed to a monk called Basile Valentin, who is supposed to have lived in the 15th century, but was published only in the 17th century.
It is an initiatory and pratical book for alchemists. The 12 "keys" are 12 allegories, full of mythological references and the characters are alchemical images: the "grey wolf", "the bath of the king"... Basile Valentin has also written about using a wand for searching metals in the earth. Curious, isn't it?
I have also noticed that 3 times, Vernon gives Harry another name: first Harvey or Harold and afterwards Howard, but always beginning with an H.
The sentence "It couldn't affect them... How very wrong he was" is also very interesting. It seems that every year, since Harry entered Hogwarts, this sentence had a new meaning for the Dursleys and in the next two books, it will have new meanings too. Till where? The end of the Dursleys?
DD is associated with silver twice: "the silver of his hair and beard" and the "silver cigarette lighter".
************
I loved the connections about the "hanged" clues and about the Hufflepuffs/badgers ones Hollywand!
Nathan, very interesting too, though I am not sure I understand you perfectly. Do you mean that the mention of Kent is important because it was always the "heart" of the most important things, both political and religious, that happened in British history? (please forgive a tired mind on a Sunday evening... )
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 19, 2004 5:56 pm (#872 of 1121)
Elanor, yes while the secular power of Kent has been supplanted by London. The heart of England in terms of religion has been since 604 A.D. Canterbury in Kent.
It is interesting to me that j.K Rowling should mention the county that contains the heart of England in terms of religion so early in the novel.
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Hollywand - Dec 19, 2004 6:46 pm (#873 of 1121)
Some interesting symbolism emerging I thought I would share with the group:
Rookwood is a key figure working in the Department of Mysteries, but is a Death Eater, apparently, from the trails in The Goblet of Fire.
Rook: A large black Raven like gregarious bird. 2. A slang term for cheating in gambling. 3. Another term for a piece called the Castle in chess.
The Hanged Man: I have seen characters in the story assume this position three times so far:
The Muggles tortured by the Death Eaters at the World Cup are enveloped in Green mist. The woman is struggling with embarassment about her underwear being exposed in public.
Harry assumes The Hanged Man position within The Triwizard Maze. Harry is enveloped in golden mist.
Severus assumes The Hanged Man position within the Pensieve courtesy of James Potter in Order of the Phoenix.
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zelmia - Dec 19, 2004 9:08 pm (#874 of 1121)
Ron and Harry are carried by the spiders to Aragorn's lair in the Hanged Man position - at least Harry is.
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Hollywand - Dec 19, 2004 10:38 pm (#875 of 1121)
Hi Zelmia! Nice addition to the list of hangings. ;-)
Zelmia, when the Pensieve first described as 'Covered in runes". Care to ponder the significance of this detail?
I noticed that Cedric and Harry become a Janus pair of champions as they approach the Triwizard cup. Harry can no longer walk, as he has been wounded in the leg by the spider. Harry and Cedric walk to and touch the cup as a pair.
Harry clings to Cedric upon returning, drops the cup, still clinging to Cedric, and has to be prised from his dead body by Dumbledore.
As Archangel pointed out, achieving the cup seems a hollow victory for Harry, since it has cost Cedric his life, and gives away the purse to the Twins.
The Maze and the Goblet of Fire Graveyard scene is the pinnacle of the series for me, so far.
Wonder why a spider is the sphinx's idea of the worst creature Harry would not want to kiss?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That is true too Hollywand, and didn't DD said he would trust Hagrid with his life?
But Hagrid could also be seen as the "Porter": the one who was in charge of the entrance, and inside, keys of the fortified place, was it castle or abbey. When the doors were locked, for the night or when there was possible danger, he was the one who had to judge if he could let someone come inside the place or not. In fact, he was in charge of the safety of the place and kept an eye on what was going on in the neighbourhood: wild animals, marauders... The cellar-man is was more an administrator of the estates of the seignory. In fact, their roles complement each other.
EDIT: that is an interesting thought Nathan. Aren't badgers and weasels somehow related?
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:54 pm (#852 of 1121)
Harry Holidays, everyone! Thanks for making my holiday break achemystical and magickal! A golden gracious 2005 to all!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 16, 2004 2:15 pm (#853 of 1121)
Elanor, yes badgers and weasels are in the same family of animals.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 4:10 pm (#854 of 1121)
More interesting details about:
Splinched: when Rowling first describes it on page 66 of the Goblet of Fire, two figures attempt appartating, and end up with their bodies conjoined and mixed up. Interesting to me that this is a key alchemical transformational symbol.
Time: The Pensieve is a memory as an intact sort of chunk of time. Memory, while in the Pensieve, can be intruded upon by another viewer, (Harry) and the viewer will see a review of the entire event, not necessarily from the Point of View of the owner.
Time: The Portkey, when first mentioned, also on page 66 of the Goblet of Fire, mentions that time is a critical element to making the Portkey work. Hmmm.
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 5:35 pm (#855 of 1121)
Elanor, do you suppose Dumbledore might have hired Dobby to look after the cellar as part of his kitchen duties as a liberated elf? I don't know if I should worry about this or not....
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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 7:49 pm (#856 of 1121)
Perhaps another time exchange metaphor?
Harry first sees a large black dog in the (Privet) hedge.
Sibyll sees Sirius as the Grim: Prophecy.
Harry sees Sirius below while he is in the midst of a lighting storm, playing Quidditch.
Sirius, Harry and Hemione are saved by a future Harry and his father patronus hart within.---"I knew I could do it, because I had already seen myself doing it".
Sirius is in an angle of repose at Grimmauld Place.
Sirius is pushed beyond the veil, becomes the Grim.
Sirius as the Grim defends Harry by flooding his heart with grief and love, saving him from Voldemort.
Will Harry encounter Sirius at his parent's gravesite, as the Grim again? Could this be why Rowling says "Sirius had to die?"
Time exchange, prophecy, experience, memory. Hmmm.
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zelmia - Dec 16, 2004 8:35 pm (#857 of 1121)
Elanor (and everyone) I'm starting my re-read now. Well not RIGHT now, but this evening. I am kind of excited, actually.
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Archangel - Dec 17, 2004 7:11 am (#858 of 1121)
Great thoughts everyone! I liked the Cellar-Elves-Hagrid connection!
I would like to know more about Hogwarts! The castle has sooooo many secrets and is certainly a major character, not just a setting, in this whole series.
I have a question to the group. Do alchemists believed in the concept of time? Or like Einstein, do they believe that time does not exist and it's just a matter of relativity? Dumbledore seem to have a very "liberal" (is this the right word?) attitude when it comes to time -- waltzing in and out of different timelines.
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Elanor - Dec 17, 2004 12:45 pm (#859 of 1121)
Harry holidays everybody! It seems we will have so much fun rereading and posting during these two weeks, that is so great!
Very interesting question Archangel! I will search tomorrow what I can find about that. At first sight, I would say that time didn't matter a lot for alchemists. Patience was one of the most important virtues an alchemist had to have. The important thing for them was to live the present, to live here and now. The Philosopher's stone was for them an eternal present. I could be mistaken but I think that the principle "one the whole" (the ouroboros, the connection between macrocosm and microcosm) could be applied to time too.
I don't know why, but the fact that alchemists wanted to live the present reminds me of what DD told Harry "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that." But I will search if I can find some more informations about that!
Great thoughts about time Hollywand! About Dobby, well "a good deed never goes amiss" and DD's choice about Dobby has already been positive for Harry, and it will certainly be again, as long as he succeeds in being not overenthusiastic... I'm sure he scares the other house-elfes!
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Hollywand - Dec 17, 2004 7:31 pm (#860 of 1121)
This discussion is such a joy.
Archangel, to reply to your query about time---I would recommend you cast your imagination back to the Ancient Egyptian sense of time for the genesis of references to time in magical works.
The Ancient Egyptians were wonderful with math, but largely applied it in a much more mystical sense. For example, they largely bartered and inventoried, but did not develop a coin and paper money system. Of course their sense of time is deeply bound to the star reading and the regular flood of the Nile River. A society that recogizes man's debt and dependence upon nature much more than our modern society.
Time measurements are bound to astologers and letting your potion sit until a certain celestial body appears. Think of sun dials---um, what happens at night? Water clocks---evaporated water used to measure time, sand, candles. Our concept of time is deeply bound to the Industrial Revolution.
It's no accident that Newton is bound to the linear concept of time. Newton's nemesis John Flamsteed ran the Royal Observatory, and these chaps, along with John Harrison, are why all of us measure time zero from Greenwich.
A cultural legacy I am sure has not escaped JoAnne Katherine Rowling, Drama Queen Extraordinairre.
If you have never visited Greenwich, you must. It's one of the best day trips from London. You can stand at the Zero Time Line, which is now a digital/laser kinda thingy. Harrison's clocks, still dancing away, rival any works of art I have ever seen. The telescopes, so high technology for Newton, Halley and Flamsteed look like an old water heater with a fire escape attached. Difficult to believe they discovered so much with these bizarre looking contraptions. ;-) Go Newt Scamader! Elanor, by the way, I just love your latin translation of Jo's Newt Scamander signature, I think it's a major reference to the alchemical code. Nice sleuthing!
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zelmia - Dec 17, 2004 10:27 pm (#861 of 1121)
PS/SS Chapter 1:
"dull grey Tuesday our story starts..." Tuesday/Mardi - Mars Day. "Psychologically Mars is the assertive and self-determining factor that allows us to survive and express our humanity openly and fearlessly." "In astrology Mars represents the compelling force of action and initiative." Can't help thinking of the later chapter where the centaurs mutter "Mars is bright tonight". Maybe Mars is Harry's ruling planet?
Cat reading a map. Cat = sun. Possible indication of dramatic shift in plot direction. (Certainly applies here).
Vernon sits with his back to the window on the 9th floor. Many things represented in this simple sentence. Basically, Vernon chooses to turn away from Wisdom "He didn't see the owls..." Also: "Abstractly, Number 9 is a highly intuitive and spiritual number, with concerns that reach for a higher plane of expression in some ways than those of the numbers before it." Exactly the opposite of Vernon's attitude.
Seem to make a point of Shooting Stars. The Star card of Tarot: "The Star is the initial spark of hope that arises from the dust when everything around us seems desolate and bleak." Seems fitting...
That's enough for now...
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Archangel - Dec 18, 2004 12:09 am (#862 of 1121)
"Think of sun dials---um, what happens at night?" -- Hollywand
Um...time stands still?
Seriously now, I just finished reading a Physics article describing Einstein's Theory of Relativity and I think I'm coming down with a bad case of migraine. "... awful things have happened when wizards meddled with time..." Imagine what it must be for plain Muggles meddling with Physics!
My one Galleon on time in JKR's world is that while it exists, it is not linear and it is certainly not a "sacred cow" in way that it would discourage wizards from using or abusing it to further their causes and ambitions.
Much as I like the dude, Dumbledore didn't hesitate one bit when he let it slip to Harry and Hermione that what they needed was more time to help Sirius. This has bothered for quite some time now because I somehow get this impression that Dumbledore has seen this whole war through and is just somehow retracing his steps to ensure that victory is achieved. Also, I can't help but recall what Ron said during the chess game when one of their pieces was smashed ("had to let that happen") and the whole Sirius-MoM fiasco.
I need to sleep... is too late to wake the Potion Master and ask him to whip up the Draught of Living Peace? Hmmmm...
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Elanor - Dec 18, 2004 8:10 am (#863 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody!
Zelmia, great connection with the "mars day"! And there is more about it because, if the story starts on a Tuesday, that means that the day Voldemort tried to kill Harry was a Monday: "the moon day", lundi (lunis dies: the day of the Moon). The Moon is bound to the Silver metal: Harry defeated Voldemort on that day, but it was only a silver victory, Voldemort wasn't vanquished for good. When/if he will defeat him at the end of book 7 for good this time, it will be a gold victory (and probably on a Sunday)!
I have read that the name "Tuesday" comes from a german war god, Tyr, which is the same symbol as Mars, the Latin god of war. A battle has been won, but the war is not finished yet.
Great connections about Vernon's office too!
I didn't know about Newton and Greenwich, that is a great detail Hollywand! I have searched for more information about time and alchemy but I have not found something interesting for now, but it still may come!
Archangel, the same thing has bothered me for some time now: why allow Harry and Hermione to go back and save Sirius then and not after the MoM battle? The only thing I have to come up with is that in PoA, it was saving an innocent from a terrible fate and in OotP, it was respecting Sirius' choice when he chose to come and rescue Harry. Choices again...
BTW, I wouldn't wake up our dear Potion master if I were you, "draco dormiens nunquam titillandos"...
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 10:36 am (#864 of 1121)
Zelmia, it think you made a tremendous connection. I couldn't figure out why the series opens on Tuesday. The same day of the week is mentioned later, and I'm thinking, ok, so what's with Tuesday? Poor me, I was thinking of Solomon Grundy ;-) Elanor's additions regarding Monday are perfect.
Also, Zelmia, the additional details regarding Vernon seem right on. I am reminded of Franz Kafka's Parablen und Paradoxa in the drescriptive writing style. Don't think it's just a coincidence, nope.
Archangel, those little emoticons are hilarious! The detail about the Time Turner is interesting....and probably a harbinger....
In reading the Goblet of Fire opening description of Krum, I still feel that Rowling is setting this character up as a romantic rival of Harry's for the attention of......Hg.
A cute detail, but I bet this intrument resurfaces: the OmniOcular. Harry buys this instrument for the trio all at once....interesting bonding moment for the three to have a singular magical vision instrument.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 18, 2004 11:44 am (#865 of 1121)
One little detail that struck me apart from the mentions of Bristol and 4 Privet Drive in the opening chapter of PS was the mention of Kent.
According to Gildas the Wise the Vortigern invited Hengest and his Saxon followers into into England for the purpose of supplementing his armies and using the Saxons, Angles and Jutes to defend against Pict invasions of the lands south of Hadrian's Wall. Traditional lore asserts that upon arriving in England Hengest established the first Saxon Kingdom within the British Isles in Kent on lands granted to him by the Vortigern.
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zelmia - Dec 18, 2004 4:26 pm (#866 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
More on Chapter 1:
Petunia is described as "horse-faced" which we take to mean that she isn't particularly attractive. Interesting that Horses generally symbolise more virtuous traits such as intelligence, nobility, valor, etc. Probably means nothing for our purposes, but then again...
Dumbledore's nose. Appears to have been broken at least twice. She often makes a point of mentioning DD's crooked nose, this is the first time she does so. Not sure this is really anything alchemically related, but seems to be significant in some way.
"twelve times he clicked the Put-Outer..." "twelve hands..." "Twelve balls of light..." Three times mentioning of the number 12. 12th card of the Major Arcana = The Hanged Man.
Dumbledore's watch. Little planets moving around. Too much to mention...
Dumbledore places Harry on the doorstep. Could DD be the Chronos/Saturn figure (Father Time) here, Hollywand?
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 4:53 pm (#867 of 1121)
Gryffindor
Great detail to notice, Zelmia. Dumbledore and Harry in a positive Saturn connection. The stair image, the stage set with the Puter Outer. All of these details fit nicely with Elanor's remarks about Saturn/Chronos, and Dedalus as well.
The broken noses...I was noticing that Ron has his nose broken by Draco. Krum has his nose broken during the Ireland Quidditch match....and the opposing seeker is "Lynch"....I wouldn't think too much of "Lynch" except that Rowling makes a point to mention Little Hangleton, Greater Hangleton, and the bar called The Hanged Man in a The Riddle House, the opening chapter. Now, that's too much repitition, be it assonance or alliteration or rhyming or bad proofreading to be just a coincidence, don't you think? Is Krum also a Hanged Man? He is a Seeker, and excellent flyer, and Harry has been studying his moves carefully.
I bet Krum and Harry face off in another sort of duel, say, in a dragon reserve. The idea of two talented seekers racing through territory loaded with dragons that just happen to be associated with: Copper, Silver, Gold, Lead........oh, I can't wait.....what a wonderful idea.....my broom aflame, here I go, seeking after the snitch...what's the bird that the snitch is based on? Perhaps that bird will also be in the reserve.
Well, if our theories are balderdash, they are very poetic balderdash. ;-)
Curious that Arthur takes the entire Weasley clan (save the Mrs.) to the very top of the stair, the top box at the Quidditch World Cup. So, here you have an connection with the heights and the trio and the Weasleys as a group----could they face off the Death Ethers or a dragon as a family?
I also think I see what Voldemort's end will be, but I don't want to put it out on the thread and risk spoiling the suspense.
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 7:17 pm (#868 of 1121)
Gryffindor
I thought you all might find this little bit interesting, since we had just been talking about Hufflepuffs, badgers and elves.
I direct you to page 237-238 of the Goblet of Fire:
Rowling lays out the house symbols and colours:
Red with a gold lion for Gryffindor: Cinnabar/gold
Blue with bronze eagle for Ravenclaw: Water/ bronze
Yellow with a black badger for Hufflepuff: Sulphur/Nigredo Lead
Green with silver snake for Slytherin: Acid/Silver
The burning and flowing---I had trouble finding references to Sulphur, but believe its right there in Hufflepuff.
Next page, Hermione is "badgering" Ron and Harry about the House Elves, and forcing them to wear badges.
I think we have, together, found a significant association between the badger, the house elves at Hogwarts, and the Hufflepuffs. Go alchemists!
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Hollywand - Dec 18, 2004 8:59 pm (#869 of 1121)
Rowling seems to be binding Harry, Hermione and Krum via their wands, interconnected:
Harry/Holly/Phoenix/ produces a fount of wine/aqua vitae/Seeker
Hermione/Vine(source of wine)/Dragonheart/produces____________/lots of references to water in her character description.
Krum/Hornbeam/Dragonheartsting/produces birds (phoenix reference)/Seeker
Hmmmm.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 19, 2004 11:24 am (#870 of 1121)
To add to my observation about Kent. Kent is also one of the most important areas in terms of religion in the Isles. In about 604 Saint Austin (Augustine) of Canterbury founded the see of Canterbury in Kent. During the middle ages The Archbishop of Canterbury was the senior most religious prelate in England and head of the Catholic Church in England. Following the Reformation in England the see of Canterbury retained its authority with only the Sovereign outranking the Archbishop of Canterbury. But in relations with other bishops the other bihops answer to Canterbury. Today in the both the Anglican and Catholic Churches Canterbury remains the principal seat.
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Elanor - Dec 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#871 of 1121)
Wow, you've been busy everyone!
I have restarted my reread of PS, taking notes this time, not to forget something!
Chapter one
Zelmia already pointed out that 3 times the number 12 is mentioned in the first chapter and I found some more which makes 5 references to the number twelve:
-"it was nearly midnight before the cat moved at all." DD arrives at 12 p.m. at P.D.
-"Twelve times he clicked the Put-Outer"
- DD: "I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here"
- "twelves hands" of DD's watch
- "twelve balls of light"
The number 12 has a lot of interesting connotations, the 12th card of Tarot is indeed very interesting, and there is an alchemical one that is very interesting too. It is bound to a famous alchemy book called "The 12 keys of the Philosophy" attributed to a monk called Basile Valentin, who is supposed to have lived in the 15th century, but was published only in the 17th century.
It is an initiatory and pratical book for alchemists. The 12 "keys" are 12 allegories, full of mythological references and the characters are alchemical images: the "grey wolf", "the bath of the king"... Basile Valentin has also written about using a wand for searching metals in the earth. Curious, isn't it?
I have also noticed that 3 times, Vernon gives Harry another name: first Harvey or Harold and afterwards Howard, but always beginning with an H.
The sentence "It couldn't affect them... How very wrong he was" is also very interesting. It seems that every year, since Harry entered Hogwarts, this sentence had a new meaning for the Dursleys and in the next two books, it will have new meanings too. Till where? The end of the Dursleys?
DD is associated with silver twice: "the silver of his hair and beard" and the "silver cigarette lighter".
************
I loved the connections about the "hanged" clues and about the Hufflepuffs/badgers ones Hollywand!
Nathan, very interesting too, though I am not sure I understand you perfectly. Do you mean that the mention of Kent is important because it was always the "heart" of the most important things, both political and religious, that happened in British history? (please forgive a tired mind on a Sunday evening... )
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 19, 2004 5:56 pm (#872 of 1121)
Elanor, yes while the secular power of Kent has been supplanted by London. The heart of England in terms of religion has been since 604 A.D. Canterbury in Kent.
It is interesting to me that j.K Rowling should mention the county that contains the heart of England in terms of religion so early in the novel.
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Hollywand - Dec 19, 2004 6:46 pm (#873 of 1121)
Some interesting symbolism emerging I thought I would share with the group:
Rookwood is a key figure working in the Department of Mysteries, but is a Death Eater, apparently, from the trails in The Goblet of Fire.
Rook: A large black Raven like gregarious bird. 2. A slang term for cheating in gambling. 3. Another term for a piece called the Castle in chess.
The Hanged Man: I have seen characters in the story assume this position three times so far:
The Muggles tortured by the Death Eaters at the World Cup are enveloped in Green mist. The woman is struggling with embarassment about her underwear being exposed in public.
Harry assumes The Hanged Man position within The Triwizard Maze. Harry is enveloped in golden mist.
Severus assumes The Hanged Man position within the Pensieve courtesy of James Potter in Order of the Phoenix.
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zelmia - Dec 19, 2004 9:08 pm (#874 of 1121)
Ron and Harry are carried by the spiders to Aragorn's lair in the Hanged Man position - at least Harry is.
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Hollywand - Dec 19, 2004 10:38 pm (#875 of 1121)
Hi Zelmia! Nice addition to the list of hangings. ;-)
Zelmia, when the Pensieve first described as 'Covered in runes". Care to ponder the significance of this detail?
I noticed that Cedric and Harry become a Janus pair of champions as they approach the Triwizard cup. Harry can no longer walk, as he has been wounded in the leg by the spider. Harry and Cedric walk to and touch the cup as a pair.
Harry clings to Cedric upon returning, drops the cup, still clinging to Cedric, and has to be prised from his dead body by Dumbledore.
As Archangel pointed out, achieving the cup seems a hollow victory for Harry, since it has cost Cedric his life, and gives away the purse to the Twins.
The Maze and the Goblet of Fire Graveyard scene is the pinnacle of the series for me, so far.
Wonder why a spider is the sphinx's idea of the worst creature Harry would not want to kiss?
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 876 to 900)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:10 am
Elanor - Dec 19, 2004 11:08 pm (#876 of 1121)
Bonjour! Great thoughts during the night I see!
Hollywand, maybe the "spider" riddle was also a warning of what was waiting for Harry after he would have passed the sphinx?
I love those connections to "hangings", we should definitely keep an eye open about them while rereading the books!
Which reminds me of "Quidditch through the ages" too: there is a move called "Sloth Grip Roll" in it described as "Hanging upside down off the broom, gripping tightly with hands and feet to avoid a bludger." (p.54) I don't remember if it is used somewhere in the books, maybe during the World cup? Anyway, if it hasn't already been mentioned, it will maybe be in the next books.
Thanks Nathan! I am happy to see I understood you! And you are right, this is both curious and interesting. I will keep an eye on any Kent mention in the books during the reread too!
BTW, Zelmia, wouldn't you have seen the LOTR recently by chance? I'm sure Harry would have prefered to meet Aragorn than Aragog on that night... LOL! Sorry, I couldn't resist! But it was really a great connection to make!
(incidentally, I've seen the extented version of the Return of the King recently and it is a great moment indeed.Ah, Aragorn...)
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 20, 2004 5:17 am (#877 of 1121)
Would Ron being dragged by the leg under the Whomping Willow be considered an upside-down position?
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zelmia - Dec 20, 2004 7:45 am (#878 of 1121)
LOL! As a matter of fact I have recently seen the extended ROTK as well - which probably accounts for my typo in my previous post. I'm always doing that Aragog/Aragorn 'malaprop'. Ah, Aragorn indeed...
I don't remember if Ron is being dragged by Sirius in the Hanged Man position. I'm sure Hollywand does. But if so, that's another one and good call, TBE.
Initial thoughts on PS Ch 2.:
Brass #4. Does Brass mean anything? It's not a "real" metal, is it? I thought it was a sort of amalgam.
Harry's re-introduction at this point is "asleep at the moment..." Lying in repose. Or, as Hollywand has pointed out, in the Dead position. Could it be that without the direct influence of Dumbledore's Saturn/Chronos, Harry's Mercury has been left in a dormant/inert state?
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Hollywand - Dec 20, 2004 8:35 am (#879 of 1121)
Hi Twinks, very nice to see you here. I am thrilled that you and Zelmia are joining in to help read the clues. Forgive me if you already know this, but I thought you might find it helpful in looking through the iconography, and thanks earlier for your contribution on the badger/weasel connection.
The iconography for Ron being dragged beneath the willow seems to fit with the Angle of Repose illustrated in alchemy, and it is a very powerful one. The prone figure is a "nurse log", as a tree person would say, that is, a fallen figure that gives rise to the family tree's geneaology, showing both the ancestors and descendents of a family.
My, that really fits with the Weasleys. Ron remains lying on a bed whilst the others are shouting and spelling. Sirius, curiously enough, also assumes the prone position, with Crookshanks sitting protectively over his heart. This may have been another cue that Sirius would die, as Zelmia has discovered, cats seem to signify an important juncture in the plot.
Harry's first really direct gaze in to Voldemort's eyes after his reincarnation in the Goblet of Fire? Red, with slits, like a cat's. Hmmmm.
The Hanged Man position we are speaking of is from the Tarot. The figure hangs by the foot from a tree, one knee bent and foot dangling; the legs in this position make a reversed number four, a key alchemical number here. The hands are behind the back, direct eye contact is made with the viewer. It's a curious image: while the figure is suspended, they are very much conscious and interactive. An epiphany sort of image.
Zelmia, brass is an interesting icon metal I have not quite been able to decide fits or not. Brass is a nice pun on position and power. Typically, bronze which is an alchemical metal is an alloy of tin and copper. Brass is copper and zinc. Let's see what our talented travelling companion Elanor has to say on the alloy metals.
Apologies for the length and I hope I don't sound it a pedantic pain in the Peeves, I certainly don't intend it that way.
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Hollywand - Dec 20, 2004 10:41 am (#880 of 1121)
I have to share this thought here, even though not strictly related to alchemy, as you folks are my Lexicon immediate family---I hope you don't mind being adopted by an eccentric! ;-)
Viktor Krum fits the candidate for the Slytherin qualities required to unite Hogwarts. He may be the Half Blood Prince. Karakoff treats him like a prince, Karakoff is very upset that Krum chooses a Mudblood for a dance partner at the Yule Ball. Krum loves Hermione, prefers Hogwarts to Drumstrang. Krum has been raised on the Dark Arts, but in his heart he would like to choose a different pathway.
Look at the passage in the Goblet of Fire where Krum takes Harry aside to ask his feelings for Hermoninny. Krum is definitely described as a romantic rival. Curiously enough, Hermione, Krum and Harry all end up at the same table----and Harry's perspective of Hermione definitely changes during the formal dance. It's a stunning passage to read, and I think laden with clues. Ron's jealousy is a noisy distraction---a lot of Sturm und Drang, if you will.
Ok, thanks for listening. Send me the bill. ;-)
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Elanor - Dec 20, 2004 1:17 pm (#881 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! The pleasure is all ours! I'm very proud to be part of your Lexicon family. Till now, I was thinking that Godric Gryffindor was the HBP (the knight sword...) but Krum is another good idea. Besides, he is named Viktor. "Victor" means the winner in Latin, the one who succeeds. It is quite appropriate for a famous quidditch player, but he may has other victories to achieve than matches in the future. Very interesting indeed!
About brass, I am a little confused because my dictionary gives two meanings for it: brass as the alloy (copper and zinc) and brass as another name for copper (the yellow copper). If I understand it properly, a "brass object" is something that looks like copper, was it real copper or an alloy of it. Am I correct?
Now, if it is brass, the alloy, I have found an alchemical meaning for it! "To whiten the brass" is an alchemical process, it means turning from black into white. It was connected to the mytological figure of Latone (because brass is "laiton" in French), the mother of Apollon and Diane, and her name means "the forgotten", and symbolically, she has to be whiten in the black materia prima.
Connected with 4 Privet Drive, it could be a reference to Petunia, the "white obsessed" for the cleaning of her house, sister of the white Lily. It could be the symbol of the seal of the charm protecting Harry there, the seal connecting Lily and Petunia, their blood ties. BTW, for 10 years, Harry has been "forgotten" there too. I like it very much!
I have read the Chapter 2, too and this is what I found interesting:
* as brilliantly pointed out by Zelmia, the "brass number four"
the mention of the number 10 twice at the beginning of the chapter: "ten years had passed", "ten years ago": the number ten is a reference to the ouroboros, the end of a cycle, of the circle. 10 years had passed, a cycle is finished, the circle is over, it is time for Harry to go back in the Wizarding World he left 10 years ago.
Harry's dead position, Hollywand's brilliant idea, at the beginning of the story. I believe you're onto something here Zelmia. When I read that Harrys was "asleep at the moment, but not for long", I was wondering if, in fact, he hasn't been "asleep" for 10 years at 4 PD, as in a protective cocoon, though this cocoon was inhospitable. He was also asleep to the Wizarding World, to his true nature.
The visit at the zoo and the fact that the snake was the first one to recognise him for what he was: a wizard and a parselmouth. I found also interesting that here, Jo write twice that the snake was "slithering" on the floor.
That's all for the moment! What do you think about it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 20, 2004 2:02 pm (#882 of 1121)
There is some support for the ideas I expressed. When the secular power of Kent waned the kingdoms of Mercia and Wessex vied for control of England. In the end the ancient Anglo Saxon kingdom of Wessex was successul. Traditionally Egbert of Wessex is accorded to have been the first King of England reigning from 802-839 C.E. Number 4 Privet Drive is located in Surrey. Surrey lies within the boundary of the Kingdom of Wessex.
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Elanor - Dec 20, 2004 11:59 pm (#883 of 1121)
Thank you for the details Nathan! This is very interesting. I would love to know where exactly Godric's Hollow is located, it is certainly significant as well.
Happy birthday Zelmia !
I assumed you were a Gryffindor! What if we had a birthday party at the Shrieking Shack Hollywand? We have so much to celebrate today!
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zelmia - Dec 21, 2004 8:52 pm (#884 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Merci pour le felicitations, Elanor! Je ne me souviens pas comment tu le savais (Est-ce que je te l'ai dit?), mais je suis tellement contente malgré.
Chapter 2 cont'd:
Is there any significance to the fact that much is made of the number of Dudley's presents? First it's 36 then 37 and finally 39.
Dudley "pig in a wig". Pig = "complete enjoyment of almost all the sins of the flesh including sloth, selfishness, ignorance, lust, greed, and gluttony".
First mention of Mrs Figg - and her cats - occurs. One of the meanings of the symbolism of Cats that I found was "guardianship" (!)
Piers Polkiss. "face like a rat". Rat - "rats were believed to thrive off the misfortunes of the children of God and to enjoy bringing humans to ruin".
"It was a very sunny Saturday..." Saturn's Day. It's as if Dumbledore isn't entirely out of the picture. He is certainly due to return.
When Harry first sees the snake, it too is "asleep". Not sure what sleeping snakes represent, but in re-reading this section, I found myself thinking of the emblem with all the snakes. Snake=Life, rebirth, resurrection, wisdom, passion, healing. Harry is soon to be "reborn" to the Wizarding World.
Harry has no watch.
What I find most interesting about this chapter is how much backstory she is able to cram into relatively few pages: Harry's relationship with Dudley, with his aunt and uncle; his place at school as an apparent troublemaker (to the Headmistress) and garden-variety weirdo to the other students. Even his relationship with Mrs Figg is made very clear.
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Elanor - Dec 21, 2004 11:58 pm (#885 of 1121)
You're welcome Zelmia! In fact, I didn't told you before but I am a great-great-great cousin of our dear Sybill and unrecoginzed seer... But the official version would be that I didn't know about your birthday till I read the "chat and greetings thread" yesterday where your birhtday was mentioned...
Great thoughts about chapter 2! I love the "snake asleep" part, it fits so well with the symbolism we met since the beginning of the book. And it reminds me about OotP, when Harry told Sirius "I felt like one" (snake) after Arthur's bite. In a way, when Harry will be awake again to the Wizarding World, the "snake in him", that is to say what Voldemort had given him when the AK failed, will be awake too.
I wondered about the number of presents too but found nothing interesting about them for now.
Saturday, Saturn's day: yes, DD is not far. He never is. But Voldemort, connected to the saturn symbolism through his wand, is another side of the picture since on Saturn's day, Harry will meet the snake.
Another detail I have noticed is that every time we see or hear from wizards in the first 2 chapters (from the "strangers in the streets" to DD and McGonagall), they wear purple/violet or different shades of green.I wonder if there is something there.
Purple/violet is a mix of blue and red equally and can represent the combination of wisdom and love. I find it particularly appropriate to DD, that we see wear purple. Purple, when it is more crimson, was also the color of the Roman Emperors and a color of authority and power, which DD has too.
What is also interesting is that the symbolism of the green color can be very different, positive or negative, according to its shade. The Graal was sometimes represented emerald green, the colour Miverva wears at the beginning of the book. According to the cat symbolism (she is here to search for the truth), the emerald green color, the color of the quest bound to the Graal symbol, reinforces that symbol. What do you think everybody?
There is so much in these first chapters! I can't wait to start chapter 3!
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Elanor - Dec 23, 2004 3:48 am (#886 of 1121)
Another thought occured to me about Harry being "asleep" to the Wizarding World when we find him in his cupboard and hence "asleep" symbolically for 10 years.
In fact, when we first see him as a baby, 10 years ago, he was already asleep. "He fell asleep as we was flyin' over Bristol." said Hagrid, that is to say when he leaves his family and the Wizarding World and, 10 years later, we find him still asleep in his cupboard.
I have searched a little about sleep and found that, in some cultures, the sleep is seen as a temporary loss of the soul.
The sleep also evokes winter: the nature asleep waits for spring to come in the darkness of the short-lighted days and secret of the earth, as Harry waits for his time to come, in the darkness and secret of his cupboard, and for his spring to come.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 23, 2004 10:44 am (#887 of 1121)
Elanor that thought reminds of Washington Irving's character Rip Van Winkle who fell into a deep sleep for 20 years. In a way Harry is much like Van Winkle in that they are both isolated for the world for an extended to such an extent that they are unprepared for the transition they must undergo upon awakening and re-entering the world.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#888 of 1121)
The volume entitled The Plot Thickens... Harry Potter Investigated by Fans for Fans edited by Galadriel Waters contains an interesting essay on the Albedo and Rubedo. The essay also contains a discussion on other elements of alchemy as well.
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Elanor - Dec 26, 2004 4:21 am (#889 of 1121)
Very interesting Nathan! I don't know Irving's work very well, but the similarities in symbolism are great. I have never read G. Waters' work but I think it shows us that we are on the right path, don't we? And with the brilliant team we have here, I have no doubt we will do (at least) as well as she did...
I am planning to restart my reread of PS tomorrow. To be honest, I have enjoyed Christmas dinners, served with Champagne "Water of Life", far too much for restarting it today. I need a clear mind for that... But I am really excited about this!
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Archangel - Dec 27, 2004 12:22 am (#890 of 1121)
Belated Happy Birthday Zelmia! Belated Happy Christmas and an Advanced Happy New Year to all!
I just got back from my Christmas vacation and boy, did I miss a lot!!! I heard the release date at 4AM while my family we're getting ready for our trip and I was grinning like crazy all day!
Speaking of the big day... I'm not sure if you've noticed these:
July 16 = 7/16 = 7/1+6 = 7/7 = Hmmm... didn't we discuss sevens, twins, and Januses in this thread somewhere?
07/16/05 = 07+07+05 = 19 = 1+9 = 10 = 1 = 10's, 1's, and Ouroborus anyone?
If you want to be thorough about the whole date thing, we can add the 2 (for 2005) and we'd get 3 as final sum -- another number with great alchemical reference and has been ever present in the series and in our discussions. More interesting however is we'd get 7/7/7 if we do so. I asked around if there's any meaning in this and my Chinese friend said that in their culture 3 7's is considered very lucky. Do you know of any associations with 3 7's?
On a side note, has JKR been reading our posts and decides to release the Water Book on this date? The date has far too many associations with 10, 7, etc. to just be a date randomly picked.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 12:46 am (#891 of 1121)
Hi Archangel! Happy holidays too!
Great connections with the release date! I do agree it wasn't ramdomly picked. About the 3 number 7, all I see is that 3 times 7=21, 2+1, that is to say the number 3 again...
Which reminds me of something I just realized yesterday. I have always wondered why the Hogwarts Express was leaving each year on the 1rst of September, and always on a Sunday, whatever year it is, which means that school starts every year on a Monday. I think I have found something. It does only make sense if it is a symbol.
01/09 (you probably write it 09/01, don't you?), well 1+9= 10, the ouroboros again. Which means that each book is a journey in itself and, at the same time, part of the "big" journey of the entire 7 books. Each school year is a circle, a cycle and, symbolically, each year it "bites his own tail".
More, the train leaves on a Sunday, the day of the sun, of gold, and school starts on a Monday, the Moon day, silver. It will take another year to Harry to turn this silver into gold again, in a word to make another step on his symbolical journey. Each year is a stage that makes him (and other characters) stronger, more powerful,knowing more about his past and about himself. He learns it the hard way but the cycle is here every year, till the 7th and last one that will lead him to his own symbolical Philosopher's Stone and the achievement of his destiny. What do you think?
EDIT: BTW, what an exciting thought about Jo reading our posts, Archangel!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 27, 2004 8:54 am (#892 of 1121)
Once, I finish going through the essays I mentioned above I will post summaries here.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 12:50 pm (#893 of 1121)
I have read chapters 3 and 4 today (The letters from No One and The Keeper of the Keys) and this is what I have noticed:
The letters from Hogwarts are written with an emerald-green ink, the colour connected to McGonagall in the first chapter, logical since she sent them, but also interesting if we remember that the emerald green colour is a "positive" symbol, the one connected with the Graal symbolism and the quest.
Harry receives his first letter on a Tuesday (if you count the days back in the books): Mars' day, Mars connected with activity, energy and war. Has Hogwarts declared war to the Dursleys on that day?
Harry receives one letter on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, then 3 on Thursday, 12 on Friday, 24 on Saturday: all symbolical numbers we have already encountered. He receives 30 or 40 letters on Sunday, 100 on Monday and then the one Hagrid gives him on Tuesday. There is a week, a circle, between the first and the last letter.
Harry's eleventh birthday is on a Tuesday, Mars day again. On this day, he learns who he is and what he is. He encounters his past and his world on Mars' day, which means that even if he doesn't realize it, he enters a fight against evil when he enters the Wizarding World again.
Hagrid's "glinting like black beetles" eyes are mentioned here for the first time and he is already connected with alcohol symbolism (the "amber liquid" he drinks). He is the first one to mention Harry's likeness with his father and his mother's eyes.
Lily and James are mentioned by Hagrid as "Head Boy an' Girl at Hogwarts". I don't know why but it reminded me at once of the wedding of the King and the Queen symbolism in alchemy, since they were the "King and Queen" of Hogwarts the year before they got married. Once couple of opposites (as we will know later), and then a conjunction. In alchemy, it is said that from the wedding of the King and the Queen, of the Sun and the Moon, a "royal son" will be born, the "eternal child", symbolizing the "philosophical gold".
Harry remembers for the first time Voldemort's laugh during his attack. His journey in his past has really begun.
And finally, I noticed that wizards are definitely connected with chocolate: Hagrid's birthday cake is a chocolate one and Mrs Figg's one (a squib but connected with the WW) is also a chocolate one... We should have known...
Sorry for the length, but there are so many things to notice that I never really saw before. I love that clue hunt!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 27, 2004 1:26 pm (#894 of 1121)
In the essay I mentioned above Hargid is closely associated geomantically with the Rubedo as defined by Cornelius Agrippa. While, Albus Dumbledore is associated with the Albedo and such represent a yin and yang concept with Albus being the postive and Hagrid being the negative.
The volume entitled The Plot Thickens... Harry Potter Investigated by Fans for Fans edited by Galadriel Waters alsp contains a discussion concerning Voldemort's role as an example of the Ouroboros.
As well as a discussion of Chamber of Secrets and its relationship to possible relationship to Thoth.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 1:53 pm (#895 of 1121)
This is really great Nathan because it is exactly what we are saying here for ages! Do you remember that post and the next ones about Hagrid, Albus and Geomancy? geomancy And Voldemort's ouroborous symbolism was discussed a lot of times here too! Gosh, we're good, aren't we?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 28, 2004 1:50 pm (#896 of 1121)
The essay on Thoth and the Chamber of Secrets written by S.P Sipal and edited buy Galadriel Waters is proving most fascinating because it is reading as a melding of the the ideas expressed by the members who still post here and Siriusly's views on the subject. The essay begins by reasserting that the Emerald Tablet remains one of the foundations of alchemy. The essay goes onto argue that The Chanber of Secrets is similar to the Chamber of Thoth in terms of construction and purpose.
On an interesting note the essay compares the reincarnations of Voldemort with the serpents faced by Prince Setna on his quest to find the Book of Thoth.
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Elanor - Dec 28, 2004 2:43 pm (#897 of 1121)
Hello Nathan! The Emerald Tablet is indeed a very famous alchemy book, though it is not really a book but a very short text actually. The legend says that Hermes himself wrote it, but in fact that text, thought certainly based on older ones, comes from the 12th century. It is in fact a kind of "summary" of the alchemical theories: the harmony between the macrocosm and the microcosm, the 3 principles which are 3 but 1 at the same time and it mentions a lot of symbols too.
Thoth, the egyptian god of wisdom and magic powers, was afterwards likened to Hermes: they share the same role, leading the souls and be the master of mysteries. In medieval texts, it is likely that references to Thoth are in fact references to Hermes. Does it help?
I have continued my reread of PS but it is too late here for posting what I have found tonight, I will do it tomorrow. Are the other rereaders ready to continue the work?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 28, 2004 7:16 pm (#898 of 1121)
Elanor, that is indeed quite useful.
The date for the founding of Ollivander's is 382 B.C. When the three numbers that make up the date totals 13 (3+8+2 = 13).
Although this not included in the text it was subsequently confirmed by J.K. Rowling that the Potters vault in Gringotts is 687. When the three numbers that make up the vault number are totalled the sum equals 21 (6+8+7 = 21).
The high security vault in Gringotts in which the Philosopher's Stone was kept in 713. When the three numbers that make up the vault number are totalled the sum equals 11 (7+1+3 = 11).
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Elanor - Dec 29, 2004 9:38 am (#899 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! In fact, I was just working on those numbers that we find in the Chapter 5 (Diagon Alley) I just read and it is very interesting to have different views about their signification.
The date for the founding of Ollivander's: 382 BC.
-The number 13 is indeed very interesting because it has very often a negative meaning.
-But it can also be seen as 4 (1+3), and refer then to the 4 elements, which would fit very well with a wand maker.
-Besides, we know that Ollivander uses 3 different cores for his wands (unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, phoenix feather), so the number 13 can be seen as 10 + 3 as well: 3 for the 3 cores, and 10 for the ouroboros symbol. Which reminded me of DD saying that Harry's scar has been proved to be a curse and a blessing at the same time : we could say the same thing of Ollivander's wands, especially Voldemort's and Harry of course.
-Finally, if you look at history, the 380s BC are very interesting. This is the golden age of the philosophers: Socrates has been poisoned a few years ago, Plato has just created his Academy and soon he will teach Aristotle, who is just born... I don't know why but Ollivanders reminds me of Greece, maybe because of the "ollive" root in it.
The vault 713 where is kept the Philosopher's stone.
-I thought to what we had to do for opening the "secret door" on Jo's site once: we had to do 7, 1 and then 3 with the darts, that is to say to look at the numbers one by one. And they are not any numbers: 7, the number of all the relations in alchemy (the 7 metals, planets...), and 3 and 1: THE alchemical principle: 3 principles (sulfur, mercury, salt) which are different but one at the same time... Curious, isn't it?
-7+1+3=11, a number often negative, the stone will bring them Voldemort searching for it, and flamel will die. But also 1+1=2, the couple of opposites, the second meeting of Harry and Voldemort.
I didn't remembered about the Potter's vault number: 687. 21 has no meaning that I am aware of, do you know any? It can also be seen as 3 (2+1) again.
What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 29, 2004 2:47 pm (#900 of 1121)
Elanor as usual your comments are are brilliant. On the subject of the number 21, the number 21 is a multiple of 7.
21 is the product of the number 7 multipled by 3 or it could be stated in the following manner (7 + 7 + 7 = 21)
Elanor, the vault number for the Potters vault was included in the film but it was later confirmed by J.K. Rowling. It was not included in the book.
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Bonjour! Great thoughts during the night I see!
Hollywand, maybe the "spider" riddle was also a warning of what was waiting for Harry after he would have passed the sphinx?
I love those connections to "hangings", we should definitely keep an eye open about them while rereading the books!
Which reminds me of "Quidditch through the ages" too: there is a move called "Sloth Grip Roll" in it described as "Hanging upside down off the broom, gripping tightly with hands and feet to avoid a bludger." (p.54) I don't remember if it is used somewhere in the books, maybe during the World cup? Anyway, if it hasn't already been mentioned, it will maybe be in the next books.
Thanks Nathan! I am happy to see I understood you! And you are right, this is both curious and interesting. I will keep an eye on any Kent mention in the books during the reread too!
BTW, Zelmia, wouldn't you have seen the LOTR recently by chance? I'm sure Harry would have prefered to meet Aragorn than Aragog on that night... LOL! Sorry, I couldn't resist! But it was really a great connection to make!
(incidentally, I've seen the extented version of the Return of the King recently and it is a great moment indeed.Ah, Aragorn...)
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 20, 2004 5:17 am (#877 of 1121)
Would Ron being dragged by the leg under the Whomping Willow be considered an upside-down position?
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zelmia - Dec 20, 2004 7:45 am (#878 of 1121)
LOL! As a matter of fact I have recently seen the extended ROTK as well - which probably accounts for my typo in my previous post. I'm always doing that Aragog/Aragorn 'malaprop'. Ah, Aragorn indeed...
I don't remember if Ron is being dragged by Sirius in the Hanged Man position. I'm sure Hollywand does. But if so, that's another one and good call, TBE.
Initial thoughts on PS Ch 2.:
Brass #4. Does Brass mean anything? It's not a "real" metal, is it? I thought it was a sort of amalgam.
Harry's re-introduction at this point is "asleep at the moment..." Lying in repose. Or, as Hollywand has pointed out, in the Dead position. Could it be that without the direct influence of Dumbledore's Saturn/Chronos, Harry's Mercury has been left in a dormant/inert state?
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Hollywand - Dec 20, 2004 8:35 am (#879 of 1121)
Hi Twinks, very nice to see you here. I am thrilled that you and Zelmia are joining in to help read the clues. Forgive me if you already know this, but I thought you might find it helpful in looking through the iconography, and thanks earlier for your contribution on the badger/weasel connection.
The iconography for Ron being dragged beneath the willow seems to fit with the Angle of Repose illustrated in alchemy, and it is a very powerful one. The prone figure is a "nurse log", as a tree person would say, that is, a fallen figure that gives rise to the family tree's geneaology, showing both the ancestors and descendents of a family.
My, that really fits with the Weasleys. Ron remains lying on a bed whilst the others are shouting and spelling. Sirius, curiously enough, also assumes the prone position, with Crookshanks sitting protectively over his heart. This may have been another cue that Sirius would die, as Zelmia has discovered, cats seem to signify an important juncture in the plot.
Harry's first really direct gaze in to Voldemort's eyes after his reincarnation in the Goblet of Fire? Red, with slits, like a cat's. Hmmmm.
The Hanged Man position we are speaking of is from the Tarot. The figure hangs by the foot from a tree, one knee bent and foot dangling; the legs in this position make a reversed number four, a key alchemical number here. The hands are behind the back, direct eye contact is made with the viewer. It's a curious image: while the figure is suspended, they are very much conscious and interactive. An epiphany sort of image.
Zelmia, brass is an interesting icon metal I have not quite been able to decide fits or not. Brass is a nice pun on position and power. Typically, bronze which is an alchemical metal is an alloy of tin and copper. Brass is copper and zinc. Let's see what our talented travelling companion Elanor has to say on the alloy metals.
Apologies for the length and I hope I don't sound it a pedantic pain in the Peeves, I certainly don't intend it that way.
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Hollywand - Dec 20, 2004 10:41 am (#880 of 1121)
I have to share this thought here, even though not strictly related to alchemy, as you folks are my Lexicon immediate family---I hope you don't mind being adopted by an eccentric! ;-)
Viktor Krum fits the candidate for the Slytherin qualities required to unite Hogwarts. He may be the Half Blood Prince. Karakoff treats him like a prince, Karakoff is very upset that Krum chooses a Mudblood for a dance partner at the Yule Ball. Krum loves Hermione, prefers Hogwarts to Drumstrang. Krum has been raised on the Dark Arts, but in his heart he would like to choose a different pathway.
Look at the passage in the Goblet of Fire where Krum takes Harry aside to ask his feelings for Hermoninny. Krum is definitely described as a romantic rival. Curiously enough, Hermione, Krum and Harry all end up at the same table----and Harry's perspective of Hermione definitely changes during the formal dance. It's a stunning passage to read, and I think laden with clues. Ron's jealousy is a noisy distraction---a lot of Sturm und Drang, if you will.
Ok, thanks for listening. Send me the bill. ;-)
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Elanor - Dec 20, 2004 1:17 pm (#881 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! The pleasure is all ours! I'm very proud to be part of your Lexicon family. Till now, I was thinking that Godric Gryffindor was the HBP (the knight sword...) but Krum is another good idea. Besides, he is named Viktor. "Victor" means the winner in Latin, the one who succeeds. It is quite appropriate for a famous quidditch player, but he may has other victories to achieve than matches in the future. Very interesting indeed!
About brass, I am a little confused because my dictionary gives two meanings for it: brass as the alloy (copper and zinc) and brass as another name for copper (the yellow copper). If I understand it properly, a "brass object" is something that looks like copper, was it real copper or an alloy of it. Am I correct?
Now, if it is brass, the alloy, I have found an alchemical meaning for it! "To whiten the brass" is an alchemical process, it means turning from black into white. It was connected to the mytological figure of Latone (because brass is "laiton" in French), the mother of Apollon and Diane, and her name means "the forgotten", and symbolically, she has to be whiten in the black materia prima.
Connected with 4 Privet Drive, it could be a reference to Petunia, the "white obsessed" for the cleaning of her house, sister of the white Lily. It could be the symbol of the seal of the charm protecting Harry there, the seal connecting Lily and Petunia, their blood ties. BTW, for 10 years, Harry has been "forgotten" there too. I like it very much!
I have read the Chapter 2, too and this is what I found interesting:
* as brilliantly pointed out by Zelmia, the "brass number four"
the mention of the number 10 twice at the beginning of the chapter: "ten years had passed", "ten years ago": the number ten is a reference to the ouroboros, the end of a cycle, of the circle. 10 years had passed, a cycle is finished, the circle is over, it is time for Harry to go back in the Wizarding World he left 10 years ago.
Harry's dead position, Hollywand's brilliant idea, at the beginning of the story. I believe you're onto something here Zelmia. When I read that Harrys was "asleep at the moment, but not for long", I was wondering if, in fact, he hasn't been "asleep" for 10 years at 4 PD, as in a protective cocoon, though this cocoon was inhospitable. He was also asleep to the Wizarding World, to his true nature.
The visit at the zoo and the fact that the snake was the first one to recognise him for what he was: a wizard and a parselmouth. I found also interesting that here, Jo write twice that the snake was "slithering" on the floor.
That's all for the moment! What do you think about it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 20, 2004 2:02 pm (#882 of 1121)
There is some support for the ideas I expressed. When the secular power of Kent waned the kingdoms of Mercia and Wessex vied for control of England. In the end the ancient Anglo Saxon kingdom of Wessex was successul. Traditionally Egbert of Wessex is accorded to have been the first King of England reigning from 802-839 C.E. Number 4 Privet Drive is located in Surrey. Surrey lies within the boundary of the Kingdom of Wessex.
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Elanor - Dec 20, 2004 11:59 pm (#883 of 1121)
Thank you for the details Nathan! This is very interesting. I would love to know where exactly Godric's Hollow is located, it is certainly significant as well.
Happy birthday Zelmia !
I assumed you were a Gryffindor! What if we had a birthday party at the Shrieking Shack Hollywand? We have so much to celebrate today!
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zelmia - Dec 21, 2004 8:52 pm (#884 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Merci pour le felicitations, Elanor! Je ne me souviens pas comment tu le savais (Est-ce que je te l'ai dit?), mais je suis tellement contente malgré.
Chapter 2 cont'd:
Is there any significance to the fact that much is made of the number of Dudley's presents? First it's 36 then 37 and finally 39.
Dudley "pig in a wig". Pig = "complete enjoyment of almost all the sins of the flesh including sloth, selfishness, ignorance, lust, greed, and gluttony".
First mention of Mrs Figg - and her cats - occurs. One of the meanings of the symbolism of Cats that I found was "guardianship" (!)
Piers Polkiss. "face like a rat". Rat - "rats were believed to thrive off the misfortunes of the children of God and to enjoy bringing humans to ruin".
"It was a very sunny Saturday..." Saturn's Day. It's as if Dumbledore isn't entirely out of the picture. He is certainly due to return.
When Harry first sees the snake, it too is "asleep". Not sure what sleeping snakes represent, but in re-reading this section, I found myself thinking of the emblem with all the snakes. Snake=Life, rebirth, resurrection, wisdom, passion, healing. Harry is soon to be "reborn" to the Wizarding World.
Harry has no watch.
What I find most interesting about this chapter is how much backstory she is able to cram into relatively few pages: Harry's relationship with Dudley, with his aunt and uncle; his place at school as an apparent troublemaker (to the Headmistress) and garden-variety weirdo to the other students. Even his relationship with Mrs Figg is made very clear.
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Elanor - Dec 21, 2004 11:58 pm (#885 of 1121)
You're welcome Zelmia! In fact, I didn't told you before but I am a great-great-great cousin of our dear Sybill and unrecoginzed seer... But the official version would be that I didn't know about your birthday till I read the "chat and greetings thread" yesterday where your birhtday was mentioned...
Great thoughts about chapter 2! I love the "snake asleep" part, it fits so well with the symbolism we met since the beginning of the book. And it reminds me about OotP, when Harry told Sirius "I felt like one" (snake) after Arthur's bite. In a way, when Harry will be awake again to the Wizarding World, the "snake in him", that is to say what Voldemort had given him when the AK failed, will be awake too.
I wondered about the number of presents too but found nothing interesting about them for now.
Saturday, Saturn's day: yes, DD is not far. He never is. But Voldemort, connected to the saturn symbolism through his wand, is another side of the picture since on Saturn's day, Harry will meet the snake.
Another detail I have noticed is that every time we see or hear from wizards in the first 2 chapters (from the "strangers in the streets" to DD and McGonagall), they wear purple/violet or different shades of green.I wonder if there is something there.
Purple/violet is a mix of blue and red equally and can represent the combination of wisdom and love. I find it particularly appropriate to DD, that we see wear purple. Purple, when it is more crimson, was also the color of the Roman Emperors and a color of authority and power, which DD has too.
What is also interesting is that the symbolism of the green color can be very different, positive or negative, according to its shade. The Graal was sometimes represented emerald green, the colour Miverva wears at the beginning of the book. According to the cat symbolism (she is here to search for the truth), the emerald green color, the color of the quest bound to the Graal symbol, reinforces that symbol. What do you think everybody?
There is so much in these first chapters! I can't wait to start chapter 3!
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Elanor - Dec 23, 2004 3:48 am (#886 of 1121)
Another thought occured to me about Harry being "asleep" to the Wizarding World when we find him in his cupboard and hence "asleep" symbolically for 10 years.
In fact, when we first see him as a baby, 10 years ago, he was already asleep. "He fell asleep as we was flyin' over Bristol." said Hagrid, that is to say when he leaves his family and the Wizarding World and, 10 years later, we find him still asleep in his cupboard.
I have searched a little about sleep and found that, in some cultures, the sleep is seen as a temporary loss of the soul.
The sleep also evokes winter: the nature asleep waits for spring to come in the darkness of the short-lighted days and secret of the earth, as Harry waits for his time to come, in the darkness and secret of his cupboard, and for his spring to come.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 23, 2004 10:44 am (#887 of 1121)
Elanor that thought reminds of Washington Irving's character Rip Van Winkle who fell into a deep sleep for 20 years. In a way Harry is much like Van Winkle in that they are both isolated for the world for an extended to such an extent that they are unprepared for the transition they must undergo upon awakening and re-entering the world.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#888 of 1121)
The volume entitled The Plot Thickens... Harry Potter Investigated by Fans for Fans edited by Galadriel Waters contains an interesting essay on the Albedo and Rubedo. The essay also contains a discussion on other elements of alchemy as well.
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Elanor - Dec 26, 2004 4:21 am (#889 of 1121)
Very interesting Nathan! I don't know Irving's work very well, but the similarities in symbolism are great. I have never read G. Waters' work but I think it shows us that we are on the right path, don't we? And with the brilliant team we have here, I have no doubt we will do (at least) as well as she did...
I am planning to restart my reread of PS tomorrow. To be honest, I have enjoyed Christmas dinners, served with Champagne "Water of Life", far too much for restarting it today. I need a clear mind for that... But I am really excited about this!
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Archangel - Dec 27, 2004 12:22 am (#890 of 1121)
Belated Happy Birthday Zelmia! Belated Happy Christmas and an Advanced Happy New Year to all!
I just got back from my Christmas vacation and boy, did I miss a lot!!! I heard the release date at 4AM while my family we're getting ready for our trip and I was grinning like crazy all day!
Speaking of the big day... I'm not sure if you've noticed these:
July 16 = 7/16 = 7/1+6 = 7/7 = Hmmm... didn't we discuss sevens, twins, and Januses in this thread somewhere?
07/16/05 = 07+07+05 = 19 = 1+9 = 10 = 1 = 10's, 1's, and Ouroborus anyone?
If you want to be thorough about the whole date thing, we can add the 2 (for 2005) and we'd get 3 as final sum -- another number with great alchemical reference and has been ever present in the series and in our discussions. More interesting however is we'd get 7/7/7 if we do so. I asked around if there's any meaning in this and my Chinese friend said that in their culture 3 7's is considered very lucky. Do you know of any associations with 3 7's?
On a side note, has JKR been reading our posts and decides to release the Water Book on this date? The date has far too many associations with 10, 7, etc. to just be a date randomly picked.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 12:46 am (#891 of 1121)
Hi Archangel! Happy holidays too!
Great connections with the release date! I do agree it wasn't ramdomly picked. About the 3 number 7, all I see is that 3 times 7=21, 2+1, that is to say the number 3 again...
Which reminds me of something I just realized yesterday. I have always wondered why the Hogwarts Express was leaving each year on the 1rst of September, and always on a Sunday, whatever year it is, which means that school starts every year on a Monday. I think I have found something. It does only make sense if it is a symbol.
01/09 (you probably write it 09/01, don't you?), well 1+9= 10, the ouroboros again. Which means that each book is a journey in itself and, at the same time, part of the "big" journey of the entire 7 books. Each school year is a circle, a cycle and, symbolically, each year it "bites his own tail".
More, the train leaves on a Sunday, the day of the sun, of gold, and school starts on a Monday, the Moon day, silver. It will take another year to Harry to turn this silver into gold again, in a word to make another step on his symbolical journey. Each year is a stage that makes him (and other characters) stronger, more powerful,knowing more about his past and about himself. He learns it the hard way but the cycle is here every year, till the 7th and last one that will lead him to his own symbolical Philosopher's Stone and the achievement of his destiny. What do you think?
EDIT: BTW, what an exciting thought about Jo reading our posts, Archangel!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 27, 2004 8:54 am (#892 of 1121)
Once, I finish going through the essays I mentioned above I will post summaries here.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 12:50 pm (#893 of 1121)
I have read chapters 3 and 4 today (The letters from No One and The Keeper of the Keys) and this is what I have noticed:
The letters from Hogwarts are written with an emerald-green ink, the colour connected to McGonagall in the first chapter, logical since she sent them, but also interesting if we remember that the emerald green colour is a "positive" symbol, the one connected with the Graal symbolism and the quest.
Harry receives his first letter on a Tuesday (if you count the days back in the books): Mars' day, Mars connected with activity, energy and war. Has Hogwarts declared war to the Dursleys on that day?
Harry receives one letter on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, then 3 on Thursday, 12 on Friday, 24 on Saturday: all symbolical numbers we have already encountered. He receives 30 or 40 letters on Sunday, 100 on Monday and then the one Hagrid gives him on Tuesday. There is a week, a circle, between the first and the last letter.
Harry's eleventh birthday is on a Tuesday, Mars day again. On this day, he learns who he is and what he is. He encounters his past and his world on Mars' day, which means that even if he doesn't realize it, he enters a fight against evil when he enters the Wizarding World again.
Hagrid's "glinting like black beetles" eyes are mentioned here for the first time and he is already connected with alcohol symbolism (the "amber liquid" he drinks). He is the first one to mention Harry's likeness with his father and his mother's eyes.
Lily and James are mentioned by Hagrid as "Head Boy an' Girl at Hogwarts". I don't know why but it reminded me at once of the wedding of the King and the Queen symbolism in alchemy, since they were the "King and Queen" of Hogwarts the year before they got married. Once couple of opposites (as we will know later), and then a conjunction. In alchemy, it is said that from the wedding of the King and the Queen, of the Sun and the Moon, a "royal son" will be born, the "eternal child", symbolizing the "philosophical gold".
Harry remembers for the first time Voldemort's laugh during his attack. His journey in his past has really begun.
And finally, I noticed that wizards are definitely connected with chocolate: Hagrid's birthday cake is a chocolate one and Mrs Figg's one (a squib but connected with the WW) is also a chocolate one... We should have known...
Sorry for the length, but there are so many things to notice that I never really saw before. I love that clue hunt!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 27, 2004 1:26 pm (#894 of 1121)
In the essay I mentioned above Hargid is closely associated geomantically with the Rubedo as defined by Cornelius Agrippa. While, Albus Dumbledore is associated with the Albedo and such represent a yin and yang concept with Albus being the postive and Hagrid being the negative.
The volume entitled The Plot Thickens... Harry Potter Investigated by Fans for Fans edited by Galadriel Waters alsp contains a discussion concerning Voldemort's role as an example of the Ouroboros.
As well as a discussion of Chamber of Secrets and its relationship to possible relationship to Thoth.
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Elanor - Dec 27, 2004 1:53 pm (#895 of 1121)
This is really great Nathan because it is exactly what we are saying here for ages! Do you remember that post and the next ones about Hagrid, Albus and Geomancy? geomancy And Voldemort's ouroborous symbolism was discussed a lot of times here too! Gosh, we're good, aren't we?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 28, 2004 1:50 pm (#896 of 1121)
The essay on Thoth and the Chamber of Secrets written by S.P Sipal and edited buy Galadriel Waters is proving most fascinating because it is reading as a melding of the the ideas expressed by the members who still post here and Siriusly's views on the subject. The essay begins by reasserting that the Emerald Tablet remains one of the foundations of alchemy. The essay goes onto argue that The Chanber of Secrets is similar to the Chamber of Thoth in terms of construction and purpose.
On an interesting note the essay compares the reincarnations of Voldemort with the serpents faced by Prince Setna on his quest to find the Book of Thoth.
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Elanor - Dec 28, 2004 2:43 pm (#897 of 1121)
Hello Nathan! The Emerald Tablet is indeed a very famous alchemy book, though it is not really a book but a very short text actually. The legend says that Hermes himself wrote it, but in fact that text, thought certainly based on older ones, comes from the 12th century. It is in fact a kind of "summary" of the alchemical theories: the harmony between the macrocosm and the microcosm, the 3 principles which are 3 but 1 at the same time and it mentions a lot of symbols too.
Thoth, the egyptian god of wisdom and magic powers, was afterwards likened to Hermes: they share the same role, leading the souls and be the master of mysteries. In medieval texts, it is likely that references to Thoth are in fact references to Hermes. Does it help?
I have continued my reread of PS but it is too late here for posting what I have found tonight, I will do it tomorrow. Are the other rereaders ready to continue the work?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 28, 2004 7:16 pm (#898 of 1121)
Elanor, that is indeed quite useful.
The date for the founding of Ollivander's is 382 B.C. When the three numbers that make up the date totals 13 (3+8+2 = 13).
Although this not included in the text it was subsequently confirmed by J.K. Rowling that the Potters vault in Gringotts is 687. When the three numbers that make up the vault number are totalled the sum equals 21 (6+8+7 = 21).
The high security vault in Gringotts in which the Philosopher's Stone was kept in 713. When the three numbers that make up the vault number are totalled the sum equals 11 (7+1+3 = 11).
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Elanor - Dec 29, 2004 9:38 am (#899 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! In fact, I was just working on those numbers that we find in the Chapter 5 (Diagon Alley) I just read and it is very interesting to have different views about their signification.
The date for the founding of Ollivander's: 382 BC.
-The number 13 is indeed very interesting because it has very often a negative meaning.
-But it can also be seen as 4 (1+3), and refer then to the 4 elements, which would fit very well with a wand maker.
-Besides, we know that Ollivander uses 3 different cores for his wands (unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, phoenix feather), so the number 13 can be seen as 10 + 3 as well: 3 for the 3 cores, and 10 for the ouroboros symbol. Which reminded me of DD saying that Harry's scar has been proved to be a curse and a blessing at the same time : we could say the same thing of Ollivander's wands, especially Voldemort's and Harry of course.
-Finally, if you look at history, the 380s BC are very interesting. This is the golden age of the philosophers: Socrates has been poisoned a few years ago, Plato has just created his Academy and soon he will teach Aristotle, who is just born... I don't know why but Ollivanders reminds me of Greece, maybe because of the "ollive" root in it.
The vault 713 where is kept the Philosopher's stone.
-I thought to what we had to do for opening the "secret door" on Jo's site once: we had to do 7, 1 and then 3 with the darts, that is to say to look at the numbers one by one. And they are not any numbers: 7, the number of all the relations in alchemy (the 7 metals, planets...), and 3 and 1: THE alchemical principle: 3 principles (sulfur, mercury, salt) which are different but one at the same time... Curious, isn't it?
-7+1+3=11, a number often negative, the stone will bring them Voldemort searching for it, and flamel will die. But also 1+1=2, the couple of opposites, the second meeting of Harry and Voldemort.
I didn't remembered about the Potter's vault number: 687. 21 has no meaning that I am aware of, do you know any? It can also be seen as 3 (2+1) again.
What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 29, 2004 2:47 pm (#900 of 1121)
Elanor as usual your comments are are brilliant. On the subject of the number 21, the number 21 is a multiple of 7.
21 is the product of the number 7 multipled by 3 or it could be stated in the following manner (7 + 7 + 7 = 21)
Elanor, the vault number for the Potters vault was included in the film but it was later confirmed by J.K. Rowling. It was not included in the book.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 901 to 925)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:11 am
Elanor - Dec 29, 2004 11:20 pm (#901 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! **blushing** and thanks for the information too!
The 3 seven are indeed a great thing to notice in symbolism, which reminds me of Archangel's remark some days ago about the date of release of the HBP.
BTW, when I woke up this morning, a curious idea came to me. We know that Jo loves puns and play on words. What if the name Ollivander was a kind of play on words with "olive wand" as a root name. She connects Ollivander's with Antiquity (founded in 382 BC) and from that time, the olive wood has always had a lot of symbolical meanings. It was, and still is, a symbol of peace and, especially of the return of the peace after wars or tragedies. Could that be a hint that, thanks to Ollivander's wands, peace in the Wizarding World will come again?
If we see the actual war as the continuation of the first fight between Slytherin's ideas and the ones of the other founders, which created the imbalance in the Wizarding World, then Ollivander's Voldemort and Harry's wands are a major fact in this conflict. Voldemort's wand first made things worse, but thanks to Harry's wand, the balance is likely to come again, as peace after war.
Does it make sense?
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Elanor - Dec 30, 2004 9:12 am (#902 of 1121)
More thoughts about the PS Chapter 5 - Diagon Alley
- As RPS had mentioned some times ago, the robes, hat, cloak that the students have to bring are black. In a way, they can be seen as the black Materia Prima before its transformation. They are indeed "in the rough" in Wizardry and have everything to learn. The dragon hide gloves could be a way of saying that what they will do at Hogwarts may be dangerous and that they will have to protect themselves.
- The books needed. I have searched the Lexicon for information about the authors mentioned and one of them is very interesting: Arsenius Jigger. It is said that Jigger is " a measure used for alcoholic spirits": this is another reference to alcohol, especially interesting because he is the author of a potion book "Magical drafts and potions". His name contains a reference to poison (arsenius for arsenic) and to alcohol/elixir of life at the same time. It fits very well with the potion master who asked for that book: dangerous but with redemptive qualities as well...
- There are several metals mentioned. Brass we talked about recently is mentioned for scales, cauldrons, and Harry buys a brass telescope. Cauldrons can be made of copper, brass, pewter and silver. Gringotts' doors are first made of bronze and inside made of silver.
- At The Leaky Cauldron, Harry meets Dedalus Diggle (mentioned for the second time, third if we count the man who bowed at Harry once that we hear here was him). Interesting that Harry meets him again when he comes back to the Wizarding World: he enters the maze again.
- Other references to the purple/mauve colour (Mme Malkin is dressed in mauve) and to chocolate (the ice-cream Harry eats with Hagrid).
- Mr Ollivanders' "silvery eyes", the mirror symbol as Hollywand pointed out brilliantly some days ago.
-Lily's wand is made of willow, symbol of wisdom, curing but also melancholy. In Greece, it was meant to repel snakes, appropriate, isn't it?
- James' wand is made of Mahogany. I haven't found any reference for mahogany. Does someone know some?
- Finally, Harry paid 7 galleons for his wand, the magic number again...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 30, 2004 10:39 am (#903 of 1121)
Elanor, Also mentioned in the text but not on the sign there is a reference made to gold cauldrons. the narration mentions that Harry wanted to buy a gold one but that Hagrid said no telling him that it said pewter on his list
Here is some interesting stuff about Mahogany. Alder is often called Scottish Mahogany.
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Having said that it is possible James Potter that could have been born between March 18th and April 14th.
Also, I forgot mention this in my thoughts on the vault numbers earlier. The vault number for Sirius Black's vault is 711. The sum total of those three numbers equals 9. The source for this the British edition of PoA.
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Elanor - Dec 30, 2004 12:59 pm (#904 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! You're right, I had forgotten about the golden cauldron Harry wanted to buy (what can you do with a gold cauldron BTW? It shall melt in the process...). I didn't know about the connection between alder and mahogany, it is interesting indeed. Thanks!
Sirius' vault is also interesting, the more because, if Goblins act rationally (which has to be proved) its vault should have been nearly next to the one in which the Philosopher's stone was kept (713). If that is true, but it is only a supposition, Sirius' vault may be a "top security" vault as well. I wonder if it keeps something besides gold... Hmm...
9 is a very positive number BTW, because it is 3 times 3 and hence it expresses the essence of the number 3, that is to say the 1. There are a lot of symbols bound to the number 9: there were 9 Muses, in "The Divine Comedy", the number 9 is everywhere... If it keeps something else than gold, it is certainly something positive for Sirius' heir, so maybe for Harry.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 30, 2004 5:02 pm (#905 of 1121)
There are some Tarot illustrations from the major arcana that are most interesting
6+8+7 = 21. In the Tarot the World card is numbered 21 among the major arcana and is the last card among the major arcana. 7+1+1 = 9. In the Tarot the Hermit card is numbered 9 among the major arcana. 7+1+3 = 11 In the Tarot either the Strength or Justice is numbered 11 among the cards of the major arcana depending on the deck.
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zelmia - Dec 30, 2004 6:27 pm (#906 of 1121)
Wow, Elanor and Nathan. Well done, you!
I do think that Harry's ruling planet is Mars, whatever the Astrologers might say. He's dropped off at the Dursleys on Mars Day, his 11th birthday falls on a Mars Day - which means that is also the day his true identity is revealed to him. Later, we hear the Centaurs mutter "Mars is bright tonight" in connection with Voldemort on the hunt in the Dark Forest.
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Elanor - Dec 31, 2004 4:42 am (#907 of 1121)
Zelmia, it is good to see you here again! I hope your holidays were great! I also hope you will continue the reread with us, will you? We need you! And I do agree about the Mars references. It will be another detail we will have to be careful about in the reread.
Great idea to connect those numbers with the Tarot cards, Nathan! There can be something interesting as well!
I wish everybody a happy new year in advance! Bonne année 2005!
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 31, 2004 8:41 am (#908 of 1121)
We "Spiders" are doing a reread of SS/PS also, and I have some thoughts on brass, especially the brass #4. Brass has in the past often been considered a poor man's gold, giving a shiny golden color with brass plating when gold would be too expensive for a middle class family. So in the late 1800's-early 1900's, many upper middle class families would have brass fixtures and door knobs, etc., because it gave them the LOOK of wealth. This fits very well with the Dursleys, who want very much to be "upper crust", and it fits well with alchemy too; the Dursleys are "fake gold," rather like Gilderoy, the "gilded king" who cares so much about appearances when his true reality is quite tawdry.
Also, my friend Phoenix Song pointed out some of the bull references -- Vernon Dursley as a "beefy" man, Harry's "cock and bull" stories, etc. I did a search, and I don't think this information has made an appearance on this thread yet.
The Egyptians had a bull-god, Ptah, who was the god of artisans, designers, builders, metal workers (!), architects and masons. According to one Egyptian tradition (Memphite creation myth) Ptah was the primary motive force in creation, thinking and speaking the cosmos into existence (elsewhere he was said to have created the cosmos out of mud.)
Apis was considered another form of the god Ptah, and the Apis bulls were regarded as the living embodiment of the god Ptah. Apis was supposedly conceived after a flash of lightning struck Isis. The Pharaohs were closely associated with the Apis bull. They partook of its strength and fertility in life and it aided in their ascent to the sun god after death. The Apis bull was depicted with the solar disk between its horns and also bearing the uraeus (cobra amulet) on its head.
He was said to have invented the 'opening of the mouth' ceremony, restoring the faculties of life to a corpse by performing it.
Obviously, this connects Ptah to Fire and the Sun pretty thoroughly. There are also a lot of mentions of "open mouths," and I believe that when Harry saw Cedric's dead body, his mouth was described as "slightly open".
But we found this stuff about Ptah especially interesting because we'd noticed, on watching the Prisoner of Azkaban movie for about the 12th time (;-D), that there's an image of Apis reflected upside down (Hanged Man) in the crystal ball when Sirius said “Haaaaarrrrrryyy Potterrrrrrr…..” out of it. We noticed it, but we didn't know why it was there. I guess this is why.
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Elanor - Jan 1, 2005 1:11 pm (#909 of 1121)
Very interesting RPS! The bull symbol is present in a lot of cultures from the prehistoric times. It is bound to the ideas of fertility, death and rebirth.
BTW, the bull is also the Taurus in astrology (21 april-21 may), bound to the Earth element and to Venus. It will be interesting to see who was born under that sign (if Jo tells us). The "eye" of the Taurus constellation is Aldebaran. A lot of characters have star names (Sirius, Andromeda...), I wonder if someone from the Black family was named Aldebaran...
Great detail about the fake gold too!
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Hollywand - Jan 1, 2005 1:31 pm (#910 of 1121)
Happy New Year everyone! It's great to return an see that our cauldron is bubbling away. I ate some gillyweed over the holidays to protect myself from too much aqua vitae! :0)
Felix Felicis: perhaps this association will make you alchemists laugh a bit....the cartoon Ren and Stimpy has a Happy Happy Joy Joy song, that's ironic...forced felicity. Could this be what Rowling will be referring to for our heroes?
I am persuaded that the "Spinners End" event could be Harry's birthday celebration. Rowling mentions on the opening announcement of the release date for Book Six on her website that it's a sort of birthday present----July 16, we will be well into the Half Blood Prince by Harry's 16th birthday, July 31. An interesting bit of synchronicity, Ja?
Alas, earwax, I am through with the series to Book Five. Most of the alchemical clues we noticed earlier, so I won't reiterate them here, thank goodness. I did notice these new details:
Sibyll's "trap door" entrance is silver and round, the ladder silver. She seems clearly a reference to the moon, or Luna.
I am convinced that Severus is being so friendly with the Malfoy boy and Lucius because he is spying on the DE through Legilimens on the Malfoys. Lucius tells Draco all, and Severus has a good peep whilst speaking with both of them. Severus may continue to befriend Lucius and spy into his cranial crannies. Hmmmm.
Rowling really underplays positive descriptions of Snape in the series. If you look at the closing Dumbledore passage in the Order of the Phoenix, Severus was able to read Harry's cryptic mental a verbal messages, and acted swiftly to assist the Order. Severus even risked the Forbidden Forest searching for Harry and Hermione. All described in one very, very understated sentence.
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Elanor - Jan 1, 2005 1:46 pm (#911 of 1121)
Happy New Year Hollywand! It is so good to see you here again!
Great details about Sybill!
I don't know the cartoon you mentioned but I never thought Felix felicis could be ironic before you told us about, that is interesting indeed and offers new possibilities... Hm, a good food for thoughts...
There is a new Wizard on the month on Jo's site:
Derwent Shimpling (1912 - present) Ate an entire Venemous Tentacula for a bet and survived, though is still purple.
I just thought curious that we find the purple colour again here. Has his name some hidden puns that I didn't see?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 1, 2005 2:22 pm (#912 of 1121)
RPS, those are some excellent points. Do you have any thoughts on the subject of Apophis.
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zelmia - Jan 1, 2005 4:39 pm (#913 of 1121)
Elanor, if Derwent Shimpling has hidden puns, I don't see them either. I would also appreciate a translation of this.
Bonne Année!
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 1, 2005 6:51 pm (#914 of 1121)
Hollywand, LOVE your Ren and Stimpy comment! That makes a lot of sense. We'll have to wait and see, of course, but neat point. It sounds like she thinks Spongebob is funny, so...
Nathan, I'd be happy to offer you my thoughts if you want to tell me what Apophis is...don't have time for an Internet search right now, my daughter and I are about to go Pottering (Harry Potter book $4.00, big wicked desserts $8.00, spending time with your teenager -- priceless :-D).
Zelmia, I'm with you, I don't see any meaning in the eating of the V.T. and turning purple either. Maybe it's just a herring, since purple is such a VERY important color in the books.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 1, 2005 8:20 pm (#915 of 1121)
RPS, when I typed Apophis I made an error, I should have typed instead Apep. Apophis is the translation of the name Apep into Greek.
The following excerpt is quoted from the Encyclopedia Mythica
An Egyptian monster living in perpetual darkness. This snake god is the chief of the antagonists of the sun god Re ... The Greeks referred to him as Apophis.
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Hollywand - Jan 1, 2005 8:37 pm (#916 of 1121)
Elanor et al, on the Venomous Tentacula: The Twins have a violet and yellow candy in the Skiving Snackbox based on VT. Makes the consumer barf and the yellow is antidote.
A dualistic reference to violet and gold, colours ofter worn by Albus WB Dumbledore.
The two that are mysteriously one, the Twins, the candies. Why Derwent? Dilys Derwent, Derwent Skimpling----consumption of the spider---are we Deadalus, in the belly of the Argog beast?
Derwent is a premium artist pencil, made in the very north of the British Isles, maybe all the way up in Scotland, but I don't think that far north. Maybe we will be heading north. Chilly waters.
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 2, 2005 6:22 am (#917 of 1121)
Ummm....(***actually, Hollywand, it's orange and purple; the orange end makes you sick and the purple end is the antidote...sorry***)
Actually, I'm going to be doing an article on the "Wheezes" in a couple of months. We realized a couple of months ago that there's actually a borderline connection between alchemy and "wheezing" -- Air is the breath of life, so panting, wheezing, any trouble breathing represent danger in the books. (Think "Hufflepuff", the House representing Earth.)
Weasley's Wizard Wheezes are all about danger. For example, the Nosebleed Nougat represents danger from sticking your "nose" in the wrong place ("broken noses"); the Fainting Fancies, Fever Fudge and Puking Pastilles are probably about Harry's mental connection with Voldemort (after he intruded into Voldie's mind while Voldie was in the snake, he threw up, and was shivering feverishly, and when he was possessed he seems to have lost consciousness briefly); the Headless Hats are probably about possession or the Imperious Curse (being "headless" -- not directing your own actions); etc.
That's also why Ron is "Harry's Wheezy" (GoF).
Sorry to go off on the dissertation, just thought you might be interested.
Nathan...
Apophis ( Apepi, Apep ) Egyptian snake god and personified darkness, evil and the forces of chaos. Apophis was the eternal enemy of Ra and cosmic order. Each night he did battle with Ra on his journey through the underworld on the barque of the sun, and each night Ra triumphed to be reborn at dawn in the east. Often the god Set or the serpent Mehen was the one who defended Ra and the solar barque from Apophis. During an eclipse it was said that Apophis had gained a temporary victory however, Ra always triumphed in the end.
Very interesting. Sounds like Voldie to me! I find it very interesting that a second serpent often defended Ra...I wonder if we'll see the sun darken in book 7 when it looks as if Voldie has won...
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zelmia - Jan 2, 2005 11:31 am (#918 of 1121)
Second Serpent Possibilities:
Snape. We have seen him "defend Ra" a couple of significant times already (end of GF - Foe glass; OP - against Umbridge).
Draco Malfoy. A more remote possiblity to be sure; but I have always believed that Draco will either have to come round "to the light" as it were or be killed. (For the bulk of this theory, see various other Threads.)
Lucius Malfoy. Hardly plausible, but not outside the realm of possiblility. Lucius's motivation would be hard to pin down, but one possiblility is that it could stem from his personal desire to be rid of Voldemort to suit his own agenda.
Peter Pettigrew/AKA Wormtail. Life debt repaid.
Theodore Nott. Again, a fairly remote possibility as this character was introduced merely in passing in OP. But much has been made of his rather rich "off camera" existence. Rowling herself has indicated that he is quite superior to Draco Malfoy in just about every respect. It is possible that Master Nott may become a much more important character in future episodes of the saga, ultimately leading to his becoming a significant ally.
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Hollywand - Jan 2, 2005 11:48 am (#919 of 1121)
Spider, thanks for the exact information on the color of the candies. I probably suffer from mercury poisoning, perhaps a potion from Severus. Interesting that poison and potion share the same latin origin, hmmm....
Rowling's interviews on the Leaky Cauldron promise that Book Six will give further details on Wormtail.
I am intrigued by the fact that Percy/Ron's pet name for him is "Scabbers", a word close to "Scabbard" which sources from, according to my poor little dictionary, Old German for Scar, meaning hidden sword. Curious.
Scabbers is a "hand me down" from Percy to Ron. Percy has replaced Scabbers with an owl called Hermes, a reference to Mercury. Wormtail/Scabbers, seems to have a hand made of quicksilver or mercury. Could there be a hidden transformation going on here between Percy, Ron and Scabbers? Scabbers does defend Ron from the bully Goyle (?) by biting him on the finger. Foreshadowing?
If Hagrid has been off trying to gather outside forces to the cause to defeat Voldemort, has Wormtail been off gathering forces to aid the cause of the Dark Lord?
What of Lupin and Wormtail's relationship, the two remaining of the orginal group of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs?
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 1:03 pm (#920 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody! I love the second snake defending Ra idea and your list is great Zelmia. May I add Nagini to it? As we said some times ago when she circled Harry in GoF, she may wanted to protect him in fact.
Hollywand, I just wondered about Scabbers since I just finished the chapter 6 of PS: The journey from Platform Nine and Three-quarters. My feeling about Scabbers biting Goyle is that he recognized 3 DE names and got scared by those names. As Sirius will say in PoA, he was far too afraid of his former friends not to pretend to be dead and he didn't want Ron to be to close to them. It may be foreshadowing also though...
These are the other things I have noticed:
Harry found Hedwig's name in "A History of Magic". We will maybe hear something about the first one someday.
Platform nine and three-quarters. I wonder if it could be a reference to music, waltz precisely. It reminds me of Sinatra's song "The Christmas waltz" : And this song of mine; In three-quarter times; Wishes you and yours; The same thing too." (TBE, are you still here? I thought you might like this one! )
The platform is between the platform 9 (3 times 3, the essence of the number 3) and the platform 10 (the Ouroboros). I don't think it is a coincidence.
When Harry sees the Weasley for the first time it is said that they have "flaming red hair" (first reference to the salamander symbol).
On the train Harry wants to buy Mars bars! Another reference to Mars connected with Harry (this one is for you Zelmia!)
When the first years follow Hagrid, they are led to a "black lake" (materia prima), "as smooth as glass" (mirror) and "carried along a dark tunnel", "underneath", "underground". Symbolically, this is a very, very interesting image. They have to cross the dark lake and go underground before reaching the castle. This is the materia prima at the beginning of the work: black and underneath. The lake is "as glass", the mirror symbol which is also the symbol of the beginning of the Great Work in alchemy. I love that image!
I won't write again what we have found about the chocolate frogs cards (4 alchemists mentioned) and what I have posted about the symbol of the train leaving on the 1rst of September, always on a Sunday, but just mention those ideas not to forget them (I do need a pensive! )
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 2, 2005 3:49 pm (#921 of 1121)
Thanks, Zelmia, great list! Here I was thinking literal serpent, but you're right, probably a person. Lucius and Draco I wouldn't bother considering, since they've already expressed their feelings about "Saint Potter," but Snape, Wormtail, and Teddy Nott are all great possibilities. I'll bet we're going to see a great deal of young Master Nott in book 7 at least. JKR has also said that we'll see more of that very curiously named Slytherin Blaise Zambini (a Slytherin connected to fire?). He's another "serpent" to watch, I think.
Hollywand, I like your comments about the name "Scabbers." It does sound a great deal like scabbard. Totally aside from the fact that he is not a nice person (he did kill Cedric, after all), I think Pettigrew mostly acts from cowardice. He was acting a bit guilty in GoF when he handed Harry his wand so he could duel with Voldie. I do think that his attack on Goyle, Jr., is a foreshadowing of him finally finding the courage to "draw his sword" and do something right.
Elanor, I like your waltz idea, and I think you're probably right! Recently, Phoenix Song, Elanor and I have been discussing the incredible prevalence of musical terms in the books. Back when I brought up Air as the harmonia between Fire and Water, I had no idea that musical terms were so common. We've found dozens of words in the books that are concealed musical references, like fiddling, rings, drumming, pipes, organ, harping, and so on. The Four Founders are two males and two females (four-part harmony). And the two descriptions of the founding of the school we've seen so far (Binns and the Sorting Hat) have both spoken of harmony. Voldemort, on the other hand, has been described as a bringer of discord. The major article in our newsletter this month is going to be about music in HP, so if I discover anything cool I'll bring it here in a few weeks.
Elanor, may I quote you about the 3/4 time? Nice reflections on SS/PS, by the way. MARS bars!!! This also makes me think about Harry confusing Mars and Venus.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 4:07 pm (#922 of 1121)
RPS,
I have a question how does Harry confuse Mars and Venus?
Cheers, Nathan
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 6:17 pm (#923 of 1121)
It's interesting that you think of scabbard when you think of Scabbers. I always think of a "scab"--a sort of "turncoat" who helps the "enemy" in a labor strike.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 6:45 pm (#924 of 1121)
Solitaire, I had forgotten about that usage of the word scab, an excellent catch.
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Hollywand - Jan 2, 2005 6:53 pm (#925 of 1121)
Fellow alchemists: there's a great post on the Percy thread connecting Wormtail and Percy throughout the series in a most unflattering fashion. Post #70, I don't know how to link, sorry. Ron/Percy mentioned as "Peter Weasley" by Draco in the Polyjuice incident. Hmmmm. And Percy's letter to Harry in Book Five is admirably dissected. Hmmm.
Another bizarre detail mentioned on the Percy thread is the War of the Roses begins with a conflict between a Percy and a Neville...... Hmmmm.
Not sure, but I believe Harry gets Mars and Venus mixed on his star chart during his OWL, since he is distracted by Hagrid's arrest.
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Thanks Nathan! **blushing** and thanks for the information too!
The 3 seven are indeed a great thing to notice in symbolism, which reminds me of Archangel's remark some days ago about the date of release of the HBP.
BTW, when I woke up this morning, a curious idea came to me. We know that Jo loves puns and play on words. What if the name Ollivander was a kind of play on words with "olive wand" as a root name. She connects Ollivander's with Antiquity (founded in 382 BC) and from that time, the olive wood has always had a lot of symbolical meanings. It was, and still is, a symbol of peace and, especially of the return of the peace after wars or tragedies. Could that be a hint that, thanks to Ollivander's wands, peace in the Wizarding World will come again?
If we see the actual war as the continuation of the first fight between Slytherin's ideas and the ones of the other founders, which created the imbalance in the Wizarding World, then Ollivander's Voldemort and Harry's wands are a major fact in this conflict. Voldemort's wand first made things worse, but thanks to Harry's wand, the balance is likely to come again, as peace after war.
Does it make sense?
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Elanor - Dec 30, 2004 9:12 am (#902 of 1121)
More thoughts about the PS Chapter 5 - Diagon Alley
- As RPS had mentioned some times ago, the robes, hat, cloak that the students have to bring are black. In a way, they can be seen as the black Materia Prima before its transformation. They are indeed "in the rough" in Wizardry and have everything to learn. The dragon hide gloves could be a way of saying that what they will do at Hogwarts may be dangerous and that they will have to protect themselves.
- The books needed. I have searched the Lexicon for information about the authors mentioned and one of them is very interesting: Arsenius Jigger. It is said that Jigger is " a measure used for alcoholic spirits": this is another reference to alcohol, especially interesting because he is the author of a potion book "Magical drafts and potions". His name contains a reference to poison (arsenius for arsenic) and to alcohol/elixir of life at the same time. It fits very well with the potion master who asked for that book: dangerous but with redemptive qualities as well...
- There are several metals mentioned. Brass we talked about recently is mentioned for scales, cauldrons, and Harry buys a brass telescope. Cauldrons can be made of copper, brass, pewter and silver. Gringotts' doors are first made of bronze and inside made of silver.
- At The Leaky Cauldron, Harry meets Dedalus Diggle (mentioned for the second time, third if we count the man who bowed at Harry once that we hear here was him). Interesting that Harry meets him again when he comes back to the Wizarding World: he enters the maze again.
- Other references to the purple/mauve colour (Mme Malkin is dressed in mauve) and to chocolate (the ice-cream Harry eats with Hagrid).
- Mr Ollivanders' "silvery eyes", the mirror symbol as Hollywand pointed out brilliantly some days ago.
-Lily's wand is made of willow, symbol of wisdom, curing but also melancholy. In Greece, it was meant to repel snakes, appropriate, isn't it?
- James' wand is made of Mahogany. I haven't found any reference for mahogany. Does someone know some?
- Finally, Harry paid 7 galleons for his wand, the magic number again...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 30, 2004 10:39 am (#903 of 1121)
Elanor, Also mentioned in the text but not on the sign there is a reference made to gold cauldrons. the narration mentions that Harry wanted to buy a gold one but that Hagrid said no telling him that it said pewter on his list
Here is some interesting stuff about Mahogany. Alder is often called Scottish Mahogany.
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Having said that it is possible James Potter that could have been born between March 18th and April 14th.
Also, I forgot mention this in my thoughts on the vault numbers earlier. The vault number for Sirius Black's vault is 711. The sum total of those three numbers equals 9. The source for this the British edition of PoA.
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Elanor - Dec 30, 2004 12:59 pm (#904 of 1121)
Thanks Nathan! You're right, I had forgotten about the golden cauldron Harry wanted to buy (what can you do with a gold cauldron BTW? It shall melt in the process...). I didn't know about the connection between alder and mahogany, it is interesting indeed. Thanks!
Sirius' vault is also interesting, the more because, if Goblins act rationally (which has to be proved) its vault should have been nearly next to the one in which the Philosopher's stone was kept (713). If that is true, but it is only a supposition, Sirius' vault may be a "top security" vault as well. I wonder if it keeps something besides gold... Hmm...
9 is a very positive number BTW, because it is 3 times 3 and hence it expresses the essence of the number 3, that is to say the 1. There are a lot of symbols bound to the number 9: there were 9 Muses, in "The Divine Comedy", the number 9 is everywhere... If it keeps something else than gold, it is certainly something positive for Sirius' heir, so maybe for Harry.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 30, 2004 5:02 pm (#905 of 1121)
There are some Tarot illustrations from the major arcana that are most interesting
6+8+7 = 21. In the Tarot the World card is numbered 21 among the major arcana and is the last card among the major arcana. 7+1+1 = 9. In the Tarot the Hermit card is numbered 9 among the major arcana. 7+1+3 = 11 In the Tarot either the Strength or Justice is numbered 11 among the cards of the major arcana depending on the deck.
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zelmia - Dec 30, 2004 6:27 pm (#906 of 1121)
Wow, Elanor and Nathan. Well done, you!
I do think that Harry's ruling planet is Mars, whatever the Astrologers might say. He's dropped off at the Dursleys on Mars Day, his 11th birthday falls on a Mars Day - which means that is also the day his true identity is revealed to him. Later, we hear the Centaurs mutter "Mars is bright tonight" in connection with Voldemort on the hunt in the Dark Forest.
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Elanor - Dec 31, 2004 4:42 am (#907 of 1121)
Zelmia, it is good to see you here again! I hope your holidays were great! I also hope you will continue the reread with us, will you? We need you! And I do agree about the Mars references. It will be another detail we will have to be careful about in the reread.
Great idea to connect those numbers with the Tarot cards, Nathan! There can be something interesting as well!
I wish everybody a happy new year in advance! Bonne année 2005!
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 31, 2004 8:41 am (#908 of 1121)
We "Spiders" are doing a reread of SS/PS also, and I have some thoughts on brass, especially the brass #4. Brass has in the past often been considered a poor man's gold, giving a shiny golden color with brass plating when gold would be too expensive for a middle class family. So in the late 1800's-early 1900's, many upper middle class families would have brass fixtures and door knobs, etc., because it gave them the LOOK of wealth. This fits very well with the Dursleys, who want very much to be "upper crust", and it fits well with alchemy too; the Dursleys are "fake gold," rather like Gilderoy, the "gilded king" who cares so much about appearances when his true reality is quite tawdry.
Also, my friend Phoenix Song pointed out some of the bull references -- Vernon Dursley as a "beefy" man, Harry's "cock and bull" stories, etc. I did a search, and I don't think this information has made an appearance on this thread yet.
The Egyptians had a bull-god, Ptah, who was the god of artisans, designers, builders, metal workers (!), architects and masons. According to one Egyptian tradition (Memphite creation myth) Ptah was the primary motive force in creation, thinking and speaking the cosmos into existence (elsewhere he was said to have created the cosmos out of mud.)
Apis was considered another form of the god Ptah, and the Apis bulls were regarded as the living embodiment of the god Ptah. Apis was supposedly conceived after a flash of lightning struck Isis. The Pharaohs were closely associated with the Apis bull. They partook of its strength and fertility in life and it aided in their ascent to the sun god after death. The Apis bull was depicted with the solar disk between its horns and also bearing the uraeus (cobra amulet) on its head.
He was said to have invented the 'opening of the mouth' ceremony, restoring the faculties of life to a corpse by performing it.
Obviously, this connects Ptah to Fire and the Sun pretty thoroughly. There are also a lot of mentions of "open mouths," and I believe that when Harry saw Cedric's dead body, his mouth was described as "slightly open".
But we found this stuff about Ptah especially interesting because we'd noticed, on watching the Prisoner of Azkaban movie for about the 12th time (;-D), that there's an image of Apis reflected upside down (Hanged Man) in the crystal ball when Sirius said “Haaaaarrrrrryyy Potterrrrrrr…..” out of it. We noticed it, but we didn't know why it was there. I guess this is why.
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Elanor - Jan 1, 2005 1:11 pm (#909 of 1121)
Very interesting RPS! The bull symbol is present in a lot of cultures from the prehistoric times. It is bound to the ideas of fertility, death and rebirth.
BTW, the bull is also the Taurus in astrology (21 april-21 may), bound to the Earth element and to Venus. It will be interesting to see who was born under that sign (if Jo tells us). The "eye" of the Taurus constellation is Aldebaran. A lot of characters have star names (Sirius, Andromeda...), I wonder if someone from the Black family was named Aldebaran...
Great detail about the fake gold too!
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Hollywand - Jan 1, 2005 1:31 pm (#910 of 1121)
Happy New Year everyone! It's great to return an see that our cauldron is bubbling away. I ate some gillyweed over the holidays to protect myself from too much aqua vitae! :0)
Felix Felicis: perhaps this association will make you alchemists laugh a bit....the cartoon Ren and Stimpy has a Happy Happy Joy Joy song, that's ironic...forced felicity. Could this be what Rowling will be referring to for our heroes?
I am persuaded that the "Spinners End" event could be Harry's birthday celebration. Rowling mentions on the opening announcement of the release date for Book Six on her website that it's a sort of birthday present----July 16, we will be well into the Half Blood Prince by Harry's 16th birthday, July 31. An interesting bit of synchronicity, Ja?
Alas, earwax, I am through with the series to Book Five. Most of the alchemical clues we noticed earlier, so I won't reiterate them here, thank goodness. I did notice these new details:
Sibyll's "trap door" entrance is silver and round, the ladder silver. She seems clearly a reference to the moon, or Luna.
I am convinced that Severus is being so friendly with the Malfoy boy and Lucius because he is spying on the DE through Legilimens on the Malfoys. Lucius tells Draco all, and Severus has a good peep whilst speaking with both of them. Severus may continue to befriend Lucius and spy into his cranial crannies. Hmmmm.
Rowling really underplays positive descriptions of Snape in the series. If you look at the closing Dumbledore passage in the Order of the Phoenix, Severus was able to read Harry's cryptic mental a verbal messages, and acted swiftly to assist the Order. Severus even risked the Forbidden Forest searching for Harry and Hermione. All described in one very, very understated sentence.
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Elanor - Jan 1, 2005 1:46 pm (#911 of 1121)
Happy New Year Hollywand! It is so good to see you here again!
Great details about Sybill!
I don't know the cartoon you mentioned but I never thought Felix felicis could be ironic before you told us about, that is interesting indeed and offers new possibilities... Hm, a good food for thoughts...
There is a new Wizard on the month on Jo's site:
Derwent Shimpling (1912 - present) Ate an entire Venemous Tentacula for a bet and survived, though is still purple.
I just thought curious that we find the purple colour again here. Has his name some hidden puns that I didn't see?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 1, 2005 2:22 pm (#912 of 1121)
RPS, those are some excellent points. Do you have any thoughts on the subject of Apophis.
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zelmia - Jan 1, 2005 4:39 pm (#913 of 1121)
Elanor, if Derwent Shimpling has hidden puns, I don't see them either. I would also appreciate a translation of this.
Bonne Année!
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 1, 2005 6:51 pm (#914 of 1121)
Hollywand, LOVE your Ren and Stimpy comment! That makes a lot of sense. We'll have to wait and see, of course, but neat point. It sounds like she thinks Spongebob is funny, so...
Nathan, I'd be happy to offer you my thoughts if you want to tell me what Apophis is...don't have time for an Internet search right now, my daughter and I are about to go Pottering (Harry Potter book $4.00, big wicked desserts $8.00, spending time with your teenager -- priceless :-D).
Zelmia, I'm with you, I don't see any meaning in the eating of the V.T. and turning purple either. Maybe it's just a herring, since purple is such a VERY important color in the books.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 1, 2005 8:20 pm (#915 of 1121)
RPS, when I typed Apophis I made an error, I should have typed instead Apep. Apophis is the translation of the name Apep into Greek.
The following excerpt is quoted from the Encyclopedia Mythica
An Egyptian monster living in perpetual darkness. This snake god is the chief of the antagonists of the sun god Re ... The Greeks referred to him as Apophis.
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Hollywand - Jan 1, 2005 8:37 pm (#916 of 1121)
Elanor et al, on the Venomous Tentacula: The Twins have a violet and yellow candy in the Skiving Snackbox based on VT. Makes the consumer barf and the yellow is antidote.
A dualistic reference to violet and gold, colours ofter worn by Albus WB Dumbledore.
The two that are mysteriously one, the Twins, the candies. Why Derwent? Dilys Derwent, Derwent Skimpling----consumption of the spider---are we Deadalus, in the belly of the Argog beast?
Derwent is a premium artist pencil, made in the very north of the British Isles, maybe all the way up in Scotland, but I don't think that far north. Maybe we will be heading north. Chilly waters.
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 2, 2005 6:22 am (#917 of 1121)
Ummm....(***actually, Hollywand, it's orange and purple; the orange end makes you sick and the purple end is the antidote...sorry***)
Actually, I'm going to be doing an article on the "Wheezes" in a couple of months. We realized a couple of months ago that there's actually a borderline connection between alchemy and "wheezing" -- Air is the breath of life, so panting, wheezing, any trouble breathing represent danger in the books. (Think "Hufflepuff", the House representing Earth.)
Weasley's Wizard Wheezes are all about danger. For example, the Nosebleed Nougat represents danger from sticking your "nose" in the wrong place ("broken noses"); the Fainting Fancies, Fever Fudge and Puking Pastilles are probably about Harry's mental connection with Voldemort (after he intruded into Voldie's mind while Voldie was in the snake, he threw up, and was shivering feverishly, and when he was possessed he seems to have lost consciousness briefly); the Headless Hats are probably about possession or the Imperious Curse (being "headless" -- not directing your own actions); etc.
That's also why Ron is "Harry's Wheezy" (GoF).
Sorry to go off on the dissertation, just thought you might be interested.
Nathan...
Apophis ( Apepi, Apep ) Egyptian snake god and personified darkness, evil and the forces of chaos. Apophis was the eternal enemy of Ra and cosmic order. Each night he did battle with Ra on his journey through the underworld on the barque of the sun, and each night Ra triumphed to be reborn at dawn in the east. Often the god Set or the serpent Mehen was the one who defended Ra and the solar barque from Apophis. During an eclipse it was said that Apophis had gained a temporary victory however, Ra always triumphed in the end.
Very interesting. Sounds like Voldie to me! I find it very interesting that a second serpent often defended Ra...I wonder if we'll see the sun darken in book 7 when it looks as if Voldie has won...
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zelmia - Jan 2, 2005 11:31 am (#918 of 1121)
Second Serpent Possibilities:
Snape. We have seen him "defend Ra" a couple of significant times already (end of GF - Foe glass; OP - against Umbridge).
Draco Malfoy. A more remote possiblity to be sure; but I have always believed that Draco will either have to come round "to the light" as it were or be killed. (For the bulk of this theory, see various other Threads.)
Lucius Malfoy. Hardly plausible, but not outside the realm of possiblility. Lucius's motivation would be hard to pin down, but one possiblility is that it could stem from his personal desire to be rid of Voldemort to suit his own agenda.
Peter Pettigrew/AKA Wormtail. Life debt repaid.
Theodore Nott. Again, a fairly remote possibility as this character was introduced merely in passing in OP. But much has been made of his rather rich "off camera" existence. Rowling herself has indicated that he is quite superior to Draco Malfoy in just about every respect. It is possible that Master Nott may become a much more important character in future episodes of the saga, ultimately leading to his becoming a significant ally.
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Hollywand - Jan 2, 2005 11:48 am (#919 of 1121)
Spider, thanks for the exact information on the color of the candies. I probably suffer from mercury poisoning, perhaps a potion from Severus. Interesting that poison and potion share the same latin origin, hmmm....
Rowling's interviews on the Leaky Cauldron promise that Book Six will give further details on Wormtail.
I am intrigued by the fact that Percy/Ron's pet name for him is "Scabbers", a word close to "Scabbard" which sources from, according to my poor little dictionary, Old German for Scar, meaning hidden sword. Curious.
Scabbers is a "hand me down" from Percy to Ron. Percy has replaced Scabbers with an owl called Hermes, a reference to Mercury. Wormtail/Scabbers, seems to have a hand made of quicksilver or mercury. Could there be a hidden transformation going on here between Percy, Ron and Scabbers? Scabbers does defend Ron from the bully Goyle (?) by biting him on the finger. Foreshadowing?
If Hagrid has been off trying to gather outside forces to the cause to defeat Voldemort, has Wormtail been off gathering forces to aid the cause of the Dark Lord?
What of Lupin and Wormtail's relationship, the two remaining of the orginal group of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs?
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Elanor - Jan 2, 2005 1:03 pm (#920 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody! I love the second snake defending Ra idea and your list is great Zelmia. May I add Nagini to it? As we said some times ago when she circled Harry in GoF, she may wanted to protect him in fact.
Hollywand, I just wondered about Scabbers since I just finished the chapter 6 of PS: The journey from Platform Nine and Three-quarters. My feeling about Scabbers biting Goyle is that he recognized 3 DE names and got scared by those names. As Sirius will say in PoA, he was far too afraid of his former friends not to pretend to be dead and he didn't want Ron to be to close to them. It may be foreshadowing also though...
These are the other things I have noticed:
Harry found Hedwig's name in "A History of Magic". We will maybe hear something about the first one someday.
Platform nine and three-quarters. I wonder if it could be a reference to music, waltz precisely. It reminds me of Sinatra's song "The Christmas waltz" : And this song of mine; In three-quarter times; Wishes you and yours; The same thing too." (TBE, are you still here? I thought you might like this one! )
The platform is between the platform 9 (3 times 3, the essence of the number 3) and the platform 10 (the Ouroboros). I don't think it is a coincidence.
When Harry sees the Weasley for the first time it is said that they have "flaming red hair" (first reference to the salamander symbol).
On the train Harry wants to buy Mars bars! Another reference to Mars connected with Harry (this one is for you Zelmia!)
When the first years follow Hagrid, they are led to a "black lake" (materia prima), "as smooth as glass" (mirror) and "carried along a dark tunnel", "underneath", "underground". Symbolically, this is a very, very interesting image. They have to cross the dark lake and go underground before reaching the castle. This is the materia prima at the beginning of the work: black and underneath. The lake is "as glass", the mirror symbol which is also the symbol of the beginning of the Great Work in alchemy. I love that image!
I won't write again what we have found about the chocolate frogs cards (4 alchemists mentioned) and what I have posted about the symbol of the train leaving on the 1rst of September, always on a Sunday, but just mention those ideas not to forget them (I do need a pensive! )
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 2, 2005 3:49 pm (#921 of 1121)
Thanks, Zelmia, great list! Here I was thinking literal serpent, but you're right, probably a person. Lucius and Draco I wouldn't bother considering, since they've already expressed their feelings about "Saint Potter," but Snape, Wormtail, and Teddy Nott are all great possibilities. I'll bet we're going to see a great deal of young Master Nott in book 7 at least. JKR has also said that we'll see more of that very curiously named Slytherin Blaise Zambini (a Slytherin connected to fire?). He's another "serpent" to watch, I think.
Hollywand, I like your comments about the name "Scabbers." It does sound a great deal like scabbard. Totally aside from the fact that he is not a nice person (he did kill Cedric, after all), I think Pettigrew mostly acts from cowardice. He was acting a bit guilty in GoF when he handed Harry his wand so he could duel with Voldie. I do think that his attack on Goyle, Jr., is a foreshadowing of him finally finding the courage to "draw his sword" and do something right.
Elanor, I like your waltz idea, and I think you're probably right! Recently, Phoenix Song, Elanor and I have been discussing the incredible prevalence of musical terms in the books. Back when I brought up Air as the harmonia between Fire and Water, I had no idea that musical terms were so common. We've found dozens of words in the books that are concealed musical references, like fiddling, rings, drumming, pipes, organ, harping, and so on. The Four Founders are two males and two females (four-part harmony). And the two descriptions of the founding of the school we've seen so far (Binns and the Sorting Hat) have both spoken of harmony. Voldemort, on the other hand, has been described as a bringer of discord. The major article in our newsletter this month is going to be about music in HP, so if I discover anything cool I'll bring it here in a few weeks.
Elanor, may I quote you about the 3/4 time? Nice reflections on SS/PS, by the way. MARS bars!!! This also makes me think about Harry confusing Mars and Venus.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 4:07 pm (#922 of 1121)
RPS,
I have a question how does Harry confuse Mars and Venus?
Cheers, Nathan
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 6:17 pm (#923 of 1121)
It's interesting that you think of scabbard when you think of Scabbers. I always think of a "scab"--a sort of "turncoat" who helps the "enemy" in a labor strike.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 6:45 pm (#924 of 1121)
Solitaire, I had forgotten about that usage of the word scab, an excellent catch.
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Hollywand - Jan 2, 2005 6:53 pm (#925 of 1121)
Fellow alchemists: there's a great post on the Percy thread connecting Wormtail and Percy throughout the series in a most unflattering fashion. Post #70, I don't know how to link, sorry. Ron/Percy mentioned as "Peter Weasley" by Draco in the Polyjuice incident. Hmmmm. And Percy's letter to Harry in Book Five is admirably dissected. Hmmm.
Another bizarre detail mentioned on the Percy thread is the War of the Roses begins with a conflict between a Percy and a Neville...... Hmmmm.
Not sure, but I believe Harry gets Mars and Venus mixed on his star chart during his OWL, since he is distracted by Hagrid's arrest.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 926 to 950)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:12 am
Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 10:21 pm (#926 of 1121)
Here is a link to post #70 on the Percy thread. Hope this helps.
Solitaire
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Elanor - Jan 3, 2005 1:11 pm (#927 of 1121)
There is always so much food for thought on this thread!
I like the different connections to Scabbers very much. I have searched in my French-English dictionary (the one you would think has been through the war since I joined the forum...) and I found something interesting I think. When it means "strike-breaker" (good catch Solitaire!), "to scab" can also be translated by "faire le jaune" (to do the yellow) which is an imaged and familiar saying for "strikebreaker" and I thought to Ron trying to turn this rat yellow in PS.
Besides, I think that "yellow" can also mean "coward" in English, am I correct? So, that colour means cowardice in both languages and fits very well with Peter. Except that Peter, as Scabbers, didn't turned yellow and some minutes afterwards he even shown unexpected courage by biting Goyle. I wonder if he will ever show that kind of courage against his master. Which leads us to the scabbard meaning, the hidden sword, again. I hope you're right, Hollywand and that this scene was foreshadowing!
My dictionary also says that scabby means pathetic and lousy, which fits rather well too, and that to scab can also mean to cicatrize.
Let's hope that scabby Peter (the pathetic one), who scabbed (acted as a yellow coward) will not scab (cicatrize) from his scabby (lousy) behavior and will become the scabbard (hidden sword) Harry needs! (Phew! Sorry if I butchered English... )
Hollywand, I have read that post and it is very interesting indeed! One thing came to my mind: what about the Penelope clue? Penelope was Ulysses' wife who did all that she could to avoid to have to get married again because she was hoping for Ulysses' return. Ulysses wanted to listen to the sirens' song which delayed his return. In a way, Percy also listened to the siren's song when he worked for Fudge: will Penelope wait for him to come down to earth again?
Ulysses was also bewitched by Circe (mentioned about Chocolate frog cards in PS) and was saved from her by Hermes who gave him a magic plant called moly! I love that one. If Percy was indeed cursed to act like that in OotP, then something from his family, thanks to Hermes, should help him to recover his senses again. What do you think?
BTW, RPS, you can quote everything you need!
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 3, 2005 2:01 pm (#928 of 1121)
Nathan, Hollywand was quite correct: Harry mismarked Venus as Mars during his O.W.L. on astronomy because he was distracted by Hagrid's arrest (OotP, p. 720 in the American Edition).
Elanor, an admirable of picking "scabs" for your sentence. :-D
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Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 2:19 pm (#929 of 1121)
Nice, Elanor! I'd forgotten about Ron's spell to turn Scabbers yellow. I guess he already was yellow, in a sense--wasn't he?--considering how big a coward he was.
Regarding the strike-breaker, such a person is often considered as a "rat," or a traitor. He "ratted out" the Potters' hiding place to Voldemort. Amazing that his animagus was a rat. It certainly is type-casting, isn't it?
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 3, 2005 2:28 pm (#930 of 1121)
Poor rats, they get such a bad break. My daughter has a pet rat -- actually quite a nice little animal. Much nicer than Wormtail.
:-D
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Hollywand - Jan 3, 2005 3:10 pm (#931 of 1121)
How funny, Elanor, I was laughing out loud at your Scabbers caper! I think the connections are quite interesting. I was trying to place Penelope Clearwater as well. It's interesting that she was petrified with Hermione, so there's possibly another association with Hermes. Will Penelope redeem Percy? I think your instincts are right on.
There's another thread here on 'what makes a good Slytherin', but we have two bad Gryffindor examples in Percy and Peter. I was thinking that Peter may have forged some sort of harmful bond with Percy, as he was initially Percy's pet, then "hand me down" (Rowling's pun intended). Could Wormtail be living at Percy's flat in London? ;-0
Spider, I would check the paws on your daughter's pet if i were you......;-) is she acting odd? Pale?
Scabbers was also cast from Harry's pillow several times, and chewing up sheets. Isn't that interesting? For this detail to be mentioned a few times is really curious. Perhaps Scabbers was listening closely whilst Harry was dreaming his Voldemort dreams.
You know, this brings me to think of the unconscious or dream world, which is another separate reality we have not spoken of enough on this thread. Harry effortlessly slips into this world of the icon, exaggerated emotion and gesture to commune with the Dark Lord, and is strangely attracted to it. The dream world is an interesting twin to the veil in the Death Room and his attraction to the arch as well.
Harry's first broom is blown to splinters. He receives another which is called a firebolt---so close to his scar name. He also recieves a toothpick from the Dursleys/Petunia----has she in reality given him a toothpick that is his father's wand, his mother's wand? The napkin----the letter from Dumbledore he should have received long ago?
I still wondering if he will perhaps, return from his 16th birthday celebration to find 4 Privet in ashes? Wow, that would be awesome.
I thought Harry was a tempremental little git in Book Five---he really strained his friendships, destroyed a lot of stuff and invaded other's privacy while preciously protecting his own. If his impulses aren't curbed in Book Six, he's going to be a royal terror.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 3:51 pm (#932 of 1121)
Every time I hear about Penelope Clearwater I am reminded of Penelope the wife of Odysseus of Ithaca who remained faithful to Odysseus.
Here is a part of the article on Penelope included in the Encyclopedia Mythica
Penelope was beset by suitors who wanted her to remarry. In order to delay them, she insisted that she could not remarry until she had finished weaving a shroud for Odysseus' father, Laertes. She worked each day at her loom, and then unravelled the cloth each night. After three years of successful delay,one of her servants revealed her deception, and the impatient suitors angrily demanded that she choose one of them for her husband immediately. At the prompting of Athene, Penelope said that she would marry the man who could string Odysseus' bow and shoot an arrow through twelve axes.
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This makes me wonder if Percy is comprable to Odysseus.
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Hollywand - Jan 3, 2005 7:18 pm (#933 of 1121)
I noticed this new detail in re-reading Order of the Phoenix I think may be connected to my "Codswallop bottle" suggestion mentioned earlier on this thread.
"Codswallop" is a particular kind of bottle technology that developed pressure with a marble stopper in the bottle of the neck. When Snape mentions that he can "Stopper death", he may be intimately connected to Voldemort's secret.
In Order of the Phoenix, Barty Crouch Junior is frantically looking through Snape's office for something he never finds...... What if he's looking for that "eau de Voldie" Snape has in a bottle?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 7:55 pm (#934 of 1121)
Is it possible that Percy is an Odysseus like figure while he is on his odyssey before he returns to Ithaca to be reunited with his family?
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Archangel - Jan 3, 2005 9:36 pm (#935 of 1121)
Wo-ho-ho-ho! The alchemists have been very busy indeed! I am blown away by the Peter-Percy theory and the whole Scabbard thing.
The first time I read Wormtail's name in PoA, I was reminded of Wormtongue from LOTR. Wormtongue spreads his master's evil through words. It's funny and interesting because from what we've seen from Peter's character is he usually attaches himself first to his preys -- befriends them, keeps an unusually close watch by transforming into a rat, etc -- before revealing his true self and performing his master's evil deeds. Isn't it that the word "tail" also means to follow someone or keep close surveillance? Wormtail, indeed!
I'm not so sure about Penelope Clearwater and Odysseus' Penelope connection yet since we haven't been given any updates, so to speak, with what's happening to Ms. Clearwater. Are they still dating?Fascinating surname though, don't you think? Perhaps, for Percy to clear a worm tailing him, he just need to splash some water on his face?
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Elanor - Jan 3, 2005 10:17 pm (#936 of 1121)
Thanks everybody! **blushing**
I just pop in before going to work. There are a lot of things so interesting in your posts, I will think about it today, you can be sure of that!
I just wanted to tell Nathan that the Ulysses I talked about in my previous post (the one bewitched by Circe and saved by Hermes/Moly) is the same man than Odysseus (I didn't know he was named like that in English, sorry!). I hope it helps! Have a great night/day wherever you are!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 11:37 pm (#937 of 1121)
If Percy is an Odysseus (Uylsses) and Molly represents a Hermes (Mercury) like figure for Percy, Then who could possibly be conjectured represent the Athena (Minerva) like figure for him?
This raises the question of whether each character possesses a different answer for the question of which other figure or figures could represent the various mythologic archetypes represented by the various deities in the numerous mythologies?
The answer to the question I think could aid the group in determining where various characters are on their respecyive journeys toward enlightenment.
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Archangel - Jan 4, 2005 5:52 am (#938 of 1121)
Elanor, Odysseus is the Greek name of Ulysses. I think Ulysses is his Roman/Latin equivalent. Pretty much like Ares is Mars, Aphrodite is Venus, etc.
Interesting thoughts on Circe. IIRC, she was daughter of the Sun God and a water nymph. So Sun/Fire + Water = Witch? Haha! Seriously, I just found this interesting, since aren't these two elements supposed to be opposites? Circe has powerful magic but she it appears from her exploits in mythology that she specializes in transfiguration and potions. Didn't she use poison to trap Odysseus' sailors and then tapped them with her wand to complete their transformation into swines? She seems more like Crouch's JR character to me than Wormtail.
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Elanor - Jan 4, 2005 1:48 pm (#939 of 1121)
Thanks for the information Archangel! Languages are truly fascinating: here we use the Roman/Greek equivalent for Gods or other heroes but not for Ulysses/Odysseus. We use the name "Odyssée" but as the name of Homer's "book" "Odyssey", the journey of Ulysses/Odysseus back to Ithaca. You're right about Circe BTW and she is a kind of conjunction of this couple of opposites, very interesting!
BTW, I have searched a little about "moly" the magic plant Hermes gave Odysseus which prevented him from Circe's magic. Moly is a Latin word and it is a plant related to garlic, a kind of golden garlic says my dictionary.
The name "Clearwater" is also interesting, you're right Archangel. It evokes me the mirror image again: you can see yourself in clear water. And Percy needs to really look at himself in a mirror...
It also evokes me a famous traditional French song (I don't know if it exists in English) called "A la claire fontaine" (at the clear fountain). It is the sad story of a man who has lost his love. He walks to a fountain whose water is so clear and beautiful that he bathes in it. After the bath, he tells his misfortune to a nightingale. The chorus is "Il y a longtemps que je t'aime, jamais je ne t'oublierai" (I love you for long, I will never forget you). This is a very famous and beautiful song that every kid learns one day and, as Jo studied French, it is likely that she knows that song. I don't know if the song and Penelope's name are related, but if they are, it is interesting to notice that, at the end of the song, the man regrets what he did and wishes that all of this never happened so his girlfriend would still love him...
Hollywand, what you wrote really made me think a lot today because not only were you right, but also I was sure I had read something about it: "You know, this brings me to think of the unconscious or dream world, which is another separate reality we have not spoken of enough on this thread. Harry effortlessly slips into this world of the icon, exaggerated emotion and gesture to commune with the Dark Lord, and is strangely attracted to it. The dream world is an interesting twin to the veil in the Death Room and his attraction to the arch as well."
And I have found where I had read about it! It was in "The alchemy explained by its language". It says that, in alchemy, the description of dreams is often a way to describe the Great Work. It can also be the place where the dreamer finds his true self. Since PS, we hear about Harry's dreams (he dreams of a motorbike before knowing he's a wizard) and his dreams have always gained in power with the years. It led him to the MoM's disaster at the end but I hope that in the future he will find something else about himself in the dream world that would help him in his fight.
BTW, harry's dreams makes me think to mirrors too, not only because of DD's remark about dreams about the mirror of Erised but because, in these dreams, Harry meets Voldemort, "on the other side of the mirror", where they are bound. Does it make sense?
Sorry for the long post!
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Hollywand - Jan 4, 2005 8:09 pm (#940 of 1121)
That's a great association with the mirror, dreams and the alchemical quest. Harry's external eyes are shut down, blind, during sleep, and it is in this Nigredo world Harry finds his connection to Voldemort. Harry knows Voldemort before Voldemort knows him in this dream state, isn't that an interesting time reversal sort of paradox? And as you pointed out, he intuitively retrieves bits of his personal history, including the moment of his mother and father's death, and the Avada Kedavra curse. Hmmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 5, 2005 12:57 pm (#941 of 1121)
Exactly, Hollywand! His dreams are another journey Harry makes, a inner journey in which he has to take the same path than in the daylight, through all the stages we mentioned, and he has to learn some important things from that journey too. I think that, the more we advance in the story, the more Harry is aware of the importance of those dreams and one moment of the books I find particularly moving is in OotP, after Mr Weasley was attacked and he is scared to sleep. As Snape said, when Harry is asleep, his mind "is most relaxed and vulnerable" and, after Sirius' death only Harry understands till which point it is.
Now, we said that the end of the black process, the deepest Harry went in the nigredo, is at the end of OotP, when Sirius dies. This is true for his "dream world" journey too with the vision Voldemort made him saw. If Harry manages to use Occlumency in HBP, then the white process shall begin in his "dream world" as well. Does it make sense?
****************
BTW, I have just reread the chapter 7 of PS The Sorting Hat and this is what I found interesting:
Before the sorting ceremony, there is this sentence: "Any second now, Professor Mc Gonagall would come back and lead him to his doom." There are a lot of ways of reading this sentence:
- The Sorting Hat hesitates and, by putting Harry in Gryffindor, it seals its fate.
- Another one could be that in that room, for the first time since his parents' death, he will face Voldemort again, though without knowing it because of the turban, but Voldemort had to recognize him since Harry felt the pain (DD says he feels when he is angry or murderous).
- Or the word "doom" means "ruin" and foreshadows the losses he will suffer in the future.
There are a lot of references to metals: From lead to silver and gold...
- lead: associated twice with Harry who is "feeling oddly as though his legs had turned to lead" before the sorting and after it "Harry's legs were as lead again." Lead is connected to Saturn, with all the symbolism we talked about. For alchemists, it was also a metal very close to gold, the one turned into gold by the PS. Here again, it may be a way of telling us Harry is at the beginning of his journey.
- silver: "the ghosts shone misty silver", DD has "silver hair", Bloody Baron's robes are "stained with silver blood". Silver is connected to the Moon and one of the students sorted is named "Moon" (I wonder if we will here about him/her again...)
- gold: there are "golden plates and goblets" on the tables and DD sits "in a large gold chair".
During the sorting, Harry "was looking at the black inside of the hat", another reference to the black materia prima at the beginning of his journey.
About Neville, Uncle Algie "pushed me [Neville] off the end of the Blackpool pier once". It is interesting that, since the first book, there is a mention of Neville's journey as well, and it begins at Blackpool, Neville's own black process.
The Caput Draconis password (geomancy), the magic of music and the 4 houses/4 elements already discussed (for the pensieve...).
The Gryffindor rooms: "round hole in the wall" to come in and the common room is "a round room". Round, seen as the solar symbol, connecting Gryffindor to the Fire element.
Harry's first significant dream, during his first night at Hogwarts, in which Quirrel's turban talks to him :"telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once because it was his destiny" but Harry fights ("Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin") -Harry's choice against Harry's abilities/legacy from Voldemort?- and then Voldemort's laugh and green light of the AK. The inner journey as began as well.
Sorry for the long post again, but this reread is so fascinating!
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Phoenix song - Jan 5, 2005 6:34 pm (#942 of 1121)
Hello all! This is my first posting on this thread...so please be gentle! I've been sharing via e-mail different thoughts about the series with Round Pink Spider and Elanor, and Elanor has suggested that I share a few of these things on this thread.
My first observation concerns the vault in Gringott's that contained the Sorcerer's Stone, number 713. At the end of POA, Dumbledore directs Harry and Hermione to rescue Sirius and pointedly tells them that he is in Professor Flitwick's office, which is found in the 13th window on the 7th floor. Most multi-leveled buildings number their rooms/offices so that the first number of a room is in reference to the floor that room is located upon. Hence, we can deduce that in a regular building, Flitwick's office would be #713...seven for the floor number and 13 for the room number. The same as the famous Gringott's vault number. We also know from Jo's website that vault #713 was originally intended to be the Potters' vault. So, this vault number was originally suppose to be attached to Harry more than to the keeper of the Stone.
Also, in the UK they position their dates so that the day precedes the numerical month. So Harry's birthday, July 31st, would be written numerically as 317...which is the mirror image (backward, like the Mirror of Erised's message) of 713. Mirrors, of course, seem to present clues, and I think that the 713 and the 317 most definitely relate to one another.
In numerology, the value of 713 and 317 are 11. (7 + 1 + 3 = 11) I'm not familiar enough with numerology to assign "values" to the numbers, but I've been told that 11 is "special" because it is a double one. The value of the vault number, and also Harry's birthday, being a "double one" relate back to the Prophecy. There were two people who could have filled the prophecy. There was a double set of children who could have been the "ONE with the power" to vanquish Lord Voldemort. Also, when Harry escapes the Dursleys at the beginning of POA and stays at the Leaky Cauldron for the remainder of the summer vacation, Tom puts him in Room 11. (Which, in reference to earlier posts, has a "brass" number 11 on the door.)
I'm not certain why Sirius was kept in Flitwick's office. I wonder if it doesn't have some symbolism tied in with Lily's reported aptitude for charm work. Hopefully we'll have more light shed on Flitwick in the future. I find his reliance on books in order to see things (literally, in order to see over the tables and desks) to be very Hermione-like and interesting in itself.
I also have some thoughts that I'd like to share regarding Mr. Ollivander's name possibly relating to "Olive vines" or olive branches...(extensions for peace) but this post is already quite long enough and I'll just save it for later.
Thanks for everybody's patience! Have a good night!
Barbie
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 5, 2005 7:23 pm (#943 of 1121)
Phoenix Song, a brilliant first post well done. I think ideas on Flitwick most insightful. I have always wondered whether Flitwick was Lily's mentor.
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Archangel - Jan 6, 2005 3:29 am (#944 of 1121)
Welcome to the thread Phoenix Song! I like the connections with the number 11.
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 6, 2005 6:22 am (#945 of 1121)
Last night, my daughter and I were rereading the scene in which Harry accidentally releases the snake from the zoo, and we realized that Harry and the snake were being equated with each other in the description.
They are both:
"protected" behind glass (Harry has round "glasses")
The description of Vernon tapping/rapping/drumming on the glass to wake the snake up is equated to Aunt Petunia hammering on the door to wake Harry up
When the glass disappeared, the snake (and information) were released, foreshadowing Harry's being released into the WW
Neither Harry nor the snake knew their parents; neither had seen the place they belong, but will (theoretically) on release (“Brazil, here I come…”)
They both wink
They speak the same language
After being "released," both “pretended” to threaten Dudley, but don’t actually harm him.
Our analysis indicates that wood is connected to protection, so "dying of boredom" (board-dom), as Harry thought the snake could, would mean being "protected to death", something Harry has almost experienced twice (being kept in a locked room at the beginning of CoS; DD keeping him in the dark too long in OotP).
Good job, by the way, Phoenix Song!
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Hollywand - Jan 6, 2005 10:41 am (#946 of 1121)
Great posts, everyone! Zelmia and Elanor, your lists on the chapters are just brilliant! Much more concise than my fevered rereading. Wow, it was a terrific broom ride, though! ;-)
I wanted to comment on Phoenix Song's association with Flitwick's office 713 and Harry's Vault 713 and birthday. Symbolically, this is a very astute detail to notice as a nexus. Harry's birthday is 317, the vault is 713 and the office is 713. The vault holds the gold, the site of the moment of discovery of the stone event. The birthday is the time event. 713 as Flitwick's office holds the spritual godfather, Sirius; at this juncture he escapes on the back of the hippogriff, the flying spirit. Later, this same symbolic individual will go through the veil as a nigredo process.
This whole series of events parallels the Alchemical processes posted earlier on this thread by Archangel, the Rosarium, I believe it is called.
I think many of the characters go through this process in different ways as part of their enoblement---for example, Harry and Hermione walk through the fire, ride on the hippogriff, descend into the water beneath the lake, etc.
Nice connection to notice, Phoenix Song.
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Elanor - Jan 6, 2005 12:23 pm (#947 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand and thanks, but you shown us the way brilliantly! I have so much fun doing that reread and taking notes: you should see me giggling all alone when finding those details I never saw the first times I read it (though I could have given myself a slap for not having thought to Dedalus Diggle before!). St Mungo, here I am...
I just loved Phoenix Song connections about the number 713 (welcome to the thread! ) and I knew everyone here would love it as well! Hollywand, you're true the symbol is very strong and I love you explanation about it. I would just add that, for me, it can be seen as a symbol of life as well:
- The Philosopher's stone is life, since it can give you eternal life and is the symbol of the ennoblement of the soul, this is what the alchemists called the "philosophical gold".
- For me, Harry is also symbolically the philosophical gold (remember the royal son of the king and the queen), he is The-Boy-Who-Lived, alive though he should be dead: he is life.
- Sirius is life too. His spirit should have died in Azkaban and did not. His soul should have died near the lake and did not. When Harry and Hermione save him from that room 713, they give him life again. He will die in OotP, but death is part of life and his death, though very sad, is part of Harry's journey. Does it make sense?
RPS, great connections about the snake! As we noticed some times ago, the snake is not necesseraly a "bad" symbol and this could be another proof of it, great work!
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Phoenix song - Jan 6, 2005 9:14 pm (#948 of 1121)
I thank all of you for your kind words and welcome! I have long been interested in the Alchemy symbols and their relation to the series, but have felt that I may not have much to contribute to the thread. My understanding in this area is limited and remedial at best. Round Pink Spider and Elanor have both furnished me with what I've termed "Alchemy Cliff Notes" that have helped me to understand the basics so that I can enjoy the discussions as well. (THANK YOU!!)
I am glad that my observations on the numbers have been helpful. I am naturally inclined to "pick up" clues related to word usage (and sometimes, the words that JKR doesn't use) numbers and colors, and I am pleased that these things can be related to the "higher" study of alchemy as well.
When JKR updated her website to report that Hermione's wand was made of a vine, I realized that the beginning of Mr. Ollivander's name sounds similar to "Olive vine". I began to wonder if an olive vine could be symbolically used as an "olive branch" to extend peace to other magical beings.
The belief that there must be harmony is becoming more clear as the series progresses. The three "historical" members that we've heard from (The Sorting Hat, Professor Binns, and Nearly Headless Nick) have all reported that harmony and peace is needed if Hogwarts (and by further extension the Wizarding World) is to survive. I feel that "Phoenix song" will become important in helping Voldemort to be overthrown, since we've already seen it benefiting Harry in the Chamber of Secrets and in the Goblet of Fire. I agree with RPS that it will be the "harmonia" that helps to bring about necessary change. I've also recently realized that the reason that it is described as an "unearthly sound" is because it fits in with the "air" symbolism group...and is therefore not "of the earth" category.
I wonder how the "Olive branch" of peace will fit into the series. We've already seen Dumbledore send one branch as a gift of peace, the branch of Gubraithian fire that he sends to the giants as a gift of peace and good will. I wonder if there will be other symbolic gifts to elicit understanding.
Have a good night all! And thank you for your welcome!
Barbie
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Elanor - Jan 7, 2005 1:05 pm (#949 of 1121)
You're welcome Phoenix Song! I do agree that there is something about Mr Ollivander's name and also about the date of the founding of Ollivander's: 382 BC. Some times ago on that thread, Nathan was saying that this date, 382, could be seen as 13 (3+8+2), a number which has often a negative meaning. And this is what came to my mind then:
But 382 is also 3+8+2=13, 1+3=4 and refer this could be a reference to the 4 elements, which would fit very well with a wand maker.
Besides, we know that Ollivander uses 3 different cores for his wands (unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, phoenix feather), so the number 13 can be seen as 10 + 3 as well: 3 for the 3 cores, and 10 for the ouroboros symbol. Which reminded me of DD saying that Harry's scar has been proved to be a curse and a blessing at the same time : we could say the same thing of Ollivander's wands, especially Voldemort's and Harry of course.
Finally, if you look at history, the 380s BC are very interesting. This is the golden age of the philosophers: Socrates has been poisoned a few years ago, Plato has just created his Academy and soon he will teach Aristotle, who is just born... I don't know why but Ollivanders reminds me of Greece, maybe because of the "ollive" root in it.
It would fit with the name Ollivander as a kind of play on words with "olive wand", or "olive vine" as you suggested, as a root name. So Jo seems to connect Ollivander's with Antiquity and from that time, the olive wood has always had a lot of symbolical meanings. It was, and still is, a symbol of peace and, especially of the return of the peace after wars or tragedies. Could that be a hint that, thanks to Ollivander's wands, peace in the Wizarding World will come again?
If we see the actual war as the continuation of the first fight between Slytherin's ideas and the ones of the other founders, which created the imbalance in the Wizarding World, then Ollivander's Voldemort and Harry's wands are a major fact in this conflict. Voldemort's wand first made things worse, but thanks to Harry's wand, the balance is likely to come again, as peace after war.
It is a great connection to make between the "Olive branch" and the branch of Gubraithian BTW!
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Hollywand - Jan 7, 2005 3:09 pm (#950 of 1121)
Here's a kind of bizarre association I thought I'd share here. I'm sure Jo does not refer to American history in her books, but find some interesting parallel with the names of the Death Eaters and the Ku Klux Klan. What follows is speculative history on an underground organization, so no dungbombs, please.
Ku Klux Klan is thought to be a derivation of "Kyklos", the Greek word for Circle. Sort of a derivation similar to Abra Cadabra, if you will. During the Civil War in the US a secret society arose in the North called The Knights of the Golden Circle. This secret society worked against the Lincoln Abraham/abolitionist movement to liberate slave labor. The Knights of the Golden Circle also referred to themselves at "Copperheads", which is the common folk name of a poisonous lowland snake common to the American South. The Ku Klux Klan, currently a very actively racist organization, takes pride in claiming historical association with The Knights of the Golden Circle.
KKK members wore masks or sheets while committing atrocities, terrorizing powerless people anonymously. They referred to their top leader as the Imperial Wizard or sometimes the Imperial Dragon. Isn't that an interesting set of parallels? The KKK also took, or take, I suppose I should say, unfortunately, great pride in associating themselves with the Nazi's agenda.
I remember as a kid seeing the letters KGC engraved on old tombstones---this was a way of revealing the identity of a Ku Klux Klan member by inscribing Knights of the Golden Circle.
It seems so cowardly to admit to such an evil affiliation only after one is safely underground, and beyond the reach of the karma they deserve.
To return to the copperhead snake. They are so fearsome in the South because they are so difficult to see. They are a kind of brown pink that blends in with water, dirt, leaves. Just looking at pictures of them gives me the creeps. We were deadly frightened of them as children.
Makes a great analogy for the Death Eaters and Voldemort.
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Here is a link to post #70 on the Percy thread. Hope this helps.
Solitaire
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Elanor - Jan 3, 2005 1:11 pm (#927 of 1121)
There is always so much food for thought on this thread!
I like the different connections to Scabbers very much. I have searched in my French-English dictionary (the one you would think has been through the war since I joined the forum...) and I found something interesting I think. When it means "strike-breaker" (good catch Solitaire!), "to scab" can also be translated by "faire le jaune" (to do the yellow) which is an imaged and familiar saying for "strikebreaker" and I thought to Ron trying to turn this rat yellow in PS.
Besides, I think that "yellow" can also mean "coward" in English, am I correct? So, that colour means cowardice in both languages and fits very well with Peter. Except that Peter, as Scabbers, didn't turned yellow and some minutes afterwards he even shown unexpected courage by biting Goyle. I wonder if he will ever show that kind of courage against his master. Which leads us to the scabbard meaning, the hidden sword, again. I hope you're right, Hollywand and that this scene was foreshadowing!
My dictionary also says that scabby means pathetic and lousy, which fits rather well too, and that to scab can also mean to cicatrize.
Let's hope that scabby Peter (the pathetic one), who scabbed (acted as a yellow coward) will not scab (cicatrize) from his scabby (lousy) behavior and will become the scabbard (hidden sword) Harry needs! (Phew! Sorry if I butchered English... )
Hollywand, I have read that post and it is very interesting indeed! One thing came to my mind: what about the Penelope clue? Penelope was Ulysses' wife who did all that she could to avoid to have to get married again because she was hoping for Ulysses' return. Ulysses wanted to listen to the sirens' song which delayed his return. In a way, Percy also listened to the siren's song when he worked for Fudge: will Penelope wait for him to come down to earth again?
Ulysses was also bewitched by Circe (mentioned about Chocolate frog cards in PS) and was saved from her by Hermes who gave him a magic plant called moly! I love that one. If Percy was indeed cursed to act like that in OotP, then something from his family, thanks to Hermes, should help him to recover his senses again. What do you think?
BTW, RPS, you can quote everything you need!
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 3, 2005 2:01 pm (#928 of 1121)
Nathan, Hollywand was quite correct: Harry mismarked Venus as Mars during his O.W.L. on astronomy because he was distracted by Hagrid's arrest (OotP, p. 720 in the American Edition).
Elanor, an admirable of picking "scabs" for your sentence. :-D
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Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 2:19 pm (#929 of 1121)
Nice, Elanor! I'd forgotten about Ron's spell to turn Scabbers yellow. I guess he already was yellow, in a sense--wasn't he?--considering how big a coward he was.
Regarding the strike-breaker, such a person is often considered as a "rat," or a traitor. He "ratted out" the Potters' hiding place to Voldemort. Amazing that his animagus was a rat. It certainly is type-casting, isn't it?
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 3, 2005 2:28 pm (#930 of 1121)
Poor rats, they get such a bad break. My daughter has a pet rat -- actually quite a nice little animal. Much nicer than Wormtail.
:-D
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Hollywand - Jan 3, 2005 3:10 pm (#931 of 1121)
How funny, Elanor, I was laughing out loud at your Scabbers caper! I think the connections are quite interesting. I was trying to place Penelope Clearwater as well. It's interesting that she was petrified with Hermione, so there's possibly another association with Hermes. Will Penelope redeem Percy? I think your instincts are right on.
There's another thread here on 'what makes a good Slytherin', but we have two bad Gryffindor examples in Percy and Peter. I was thinking that Peter may have forged some sort of harmful bond with Percy, as he was initially Percy's pet, then "hand me down" (Rowling's pun intended). Could Wormtail be living at Percy's flat in London? ;-0
Spider, I would check the paws on your daughter's pet if i were you......;-) is she acting odd? Pale?
Scabbers was also cast from Harry's pillow several times, and chewing up sheets. Isn't that interesting? For this detail to be mentioned a few times is really curious. Perhaps Scabbers was listening closely whilst Harry was dreaming his Voldemort dreams.
You know, this brings me to think of the unconscious or dream world, which is another separate reality we have not spoken of enough on this thread. Harry effortlessly slips into this world of the icon, exaggerated emotion and gesture to commune with the Dark Lord, and is strangely attracted to it. The dream world is an interesting twin to the veil in the Death Room and his attraction to the arch as well.
Harry's first broom is blown to splinters. He receives another which is called a firebolt---so close to his scar name. He also recieves a toothpick from the Dursleys/Petunia----has she in reality given him a toothpick that is his father's wand, his mother's wand? The napkin----the letter from Dumbledore he should have received long ago?
I still wondering if he will perhaps, return from his 16th birthday celebration to find 4 Privet in ashes? Wow, that would be awesome.
I thought Harry was a tempremental little git in Book Five---he really strained his friendships, destroyed a lot of stuff and invaded other's privacy while preciously protecting his own. If his impulses aren't curbed in Book Six, he's going to be a royal terror.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 3:51 pm (#932 of 1121)
Every time I hear about Penelope Clearwater I am reminded of Penelope the wife of Odysseus of Ithaca who remained faithful to Odysseus.
Here is a part of the article on Penelope included in the Encyclopedia Mythica
Penelope was beset by suitors who wanted her to remarry. In order to delay them, she insisted that she could not remarry until she had finished weaving a shroud for Odysseus' father, Laertes. She worked each day at her loom, and then unravelled the cloth each night. After three years of successful delay,one of her servants revealed her deception, and the impatient suitors angrily demanded that she choose one of them for her husband immediately. At the prompting of Athene, Penelope said that she would marry the man who could string Odysseus' bow and shoot an arrow through twelve axes.
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This makes me wonder if Percy is comprable to Odysseus.
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Hollywand - Jan 3, 2005 7:18 pm (#933 of 1121)
I noticed this new detail in re-reading Order of the Phoenix I think may be connected to my "Codswallop bottle" suggestion mentioned earlier on this thread.
"Codswallop" is a particular kind of bottle technology that developed pressure with a marble stopper in the bottle of the neck. When Snape mentions that he can "Stopper death", he may be intimately connected to Voldemort's secret.
In Order of the Phoenix, Barty Crouch Junior is frantically looking through Snape's office for something he never finds...... What if he's looking for that "eau de Voldie" Snape has in a bottle?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 7:55 pm (#934 of 1121)
Is it possible that Percy is an Odysseus like figure while he is on his odyssey before he returns to Ithaca to be reunited with his family?
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Archangel - Jan 3, 2005 9:36 pm (#935 of 1121)
Wo-ho-ho-ho! The alchemists have been very busy indeed! I am blown away by the Peter-Percy theory and the whole Scabbard thing.
The first time I read Wormtail's name in PoA, I was reminded of Wormtongue from LOTR. Wormtongue spreads his master's evil through words. It's funny and interesting because from what we've seen from Peter's character is he usually attaches himself first to his preys -- befriends them, keeps an unusually close watch by transforming into a rat, etc -- before revealing his true self and performing his master's evil deeds. Isn't it that the word "tail" also means to follow someone or keep close surveillance? Wormtail, indeed!
I'm not so sure about Penelope Clearwater and Odysseus' Penelope connection yet since we haven't been given any updates, so to speak, with what's happening to Ms. Clearwater. Are they still dating?Fascinating surname though, don't you think? Perhaps, for Percy to clear a worm tailing him, he just need to splash some water on his face?
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Elanor - Jan 3, 2005 10:17 pm (#936 of 1121)
Thanks everybody! **blushing**
I just pop in before going to work. There are a lot of things so interesting in your posts, I will think about it today, you can be sure of that!
I just wanted to tell Nathan that the Ulysses I talked about in my previous post (the one bewitched by Circe and saved by Hermes/Moly) is the same man than Odysseus (I didn't know he was named like that in English, sorry!). I hope it helps! Have a great night/day wherever you are!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 3, 2005 11:37 pm (#937 of 1121)
If Percy is an Odysseus (Uylsses) and Molly represents a Hermes (Mercury) like figure for Percy, Then who could possibly be conjectured represent the Athena (Minerva) like figure for him?
This raises the question of whether each character possesses a different answer for the question of which other figure or figures could represent the various mythologic archetypes represented by the various deities in the numerous mythologies?
The answer to the question I think could aid the group in determining where various characters are on their respecyive journeys toward enlightenment.
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Archangel - Jan 4, 2005 5:52 am (#938 of 1121)
Elanor, Odysseus is the Greek name of Ulysses. I think Ulysses is his Roman/Latin equivalent. Pretty much like Ares is Mars, Aphrodite is Venus, etc.
Interesting thoughts on Circe. IIRC, she was daughter of the Sun God and a water nymph. So Sun/Fire + Water = Witch? Haha! Seriously, I just found this interesting, since aren't these two elements supposed to be opposites? Circe has powerful magic but she it appears from her exploits in mythology that she specializes in transfiguration and potions. Didn't she use poison to trap Odysseus' sailors and then tapped them with her wand to complete their transformation into swines? She seems more like Crouch's JR character to me than Wormtail.
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Elanor - Jan 4, 2005 1:48 pm (#939 of 1121)
Thanks for the information Archangel! Languages are truly fascinating: here we use the Roman/Greek equivalent for Gods or other heroes but not for Ulysses/Odysseus. We use the name "Odyssée" but as the name of Homer's "book" "Odyssey", the journey of Ulysses/Odysseus back to Ithaca. You're right about Circe BTW and she is a kind of conjunction of this couple of opposites, very interesting!
BTW, I have searched a little about "moly" the magic plant Hermes gave Odysseus which prevented him from Circe's magic. Moly is a Latin word and it is a plant related to garlic, a kind of golden garlic says my dictionary.
The name "Clearwater" is also interesting, you're right Archangel. It evokes me the mirror image again: you can see yourself in clear water. And Percy needs to really look at himself in a mirror...
It also evokes me a famous traditional French song (I don't know if it exists in English) called "A la claire fontaine" (at the clear fountain). It is the sad story of a man who has lost his love. He walks to a fountain whose water is so clear and beautiful that he bathes in it. After the bath, he tells his misfortune to a nightingale. The chorus is "Il y a longtemps que je t'aime, jamais je ne t'oublierai" (I love you for long, I will never forget you). This is a very famous and beautiful song that every kid learns one day and, as Jo studied French, it is likely that she knows that song. I don't know if the song and Penelope's name are related, but if they are, it is interesting to notice that, at the end of the song, the man regrets what he did and wishes that all of this never happened so his girlfriend would still love him...
Hollywand, what you wrote really made me think a lot today because not only were you right, but also I was sure I had read something about it: "You know, this brings me to think of the unconscious or dream world, which is another separate reality we have not spoken of enough on this thread. Harry effortlessly slips into this world of the icon, exaggerated emotion and gesture to commune with the Dark Lord, and is strangely attracted to it. The dream world is an interesting twin to the veil in the Death Room and his attraction to the arch as well."
And I have found where I had read about it! It was in "The alchemy explained by its language". It says that, in alchemy, the description of dreams is often a way to describe the Great Work. It can also be the place where the dreamer finds his true self. Since PS, we hear about Harry's dreams (he dreams of a motorbike before knowing he's a wizard) and his dreams have always gained in power with the years. It led him to the MoM's disaster at the end but I hope that in the future he will find something else about himself in the dream world that would help him in his fight.
BTW, harry's dreams makes me think to mirrors too, not only because of DD's remark about dreams about the mirror of Erised but because, in these dreams, Harry meets Voldemort, "on the other side of the mirror", where they are bound. Does it make sense?
Sorry for the long post!
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Hollywand - Jan 4, 2005 8:09 pm (#940 of 1121)
That's a great association with the mirror, dreams and the alchemical quest. Harry's external eyes are shut down, blind, during sleep, and it is in this Nigredo world Harry finds his connection to Voldemort. Harry knows Voldemort before Voldemort knows him in this dream state, isn't that an interesting time reversal sort of paradox? And as you pointed out, he intuitively retrieves bits of his personal history, including the moment of his mother and father's death, and the Avada Kedavra curse. Hmmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 5, 2005 12:57 pm (#941 of 1121)
Exactly, Hollywand! His dreams are another journey Harry makes, a inner journey in which he has to take the same path than in the daylight, through all the stages we mentioned, and he has to learn some important things from that journey too. I think that, the more we advance in the story, the more Harry is aware of the importance of those dreams and one moment of the books I find particularly moving is in OotP, after Mr Weasley was attacked and he is scared to sleep. As Snape said, when Harry is asleep, his mind "is most relaxed and vulnerable" and, after Sirius' death only Harry understands till which point it is.
Now, we said that the end of the black process, the deepest Harry went in the nigredo, is at the end of OotP, when Sirius dies. This is true for his "dream world" journey too with the vision Voldemort made him saw. If Harry manages to use Occlumency in HBP, then the white process shall begin in his "dream world" as well. Does it make sense?
****************
BTW, I have just reread the chapter 7 of PS The Sorting Hat and this is what I found interesting:
Before the sorting ceremony, there is this sentence: "Any second now, Professor Mc Gonagall would come back and lead him to his doom." There are a lot of ways of reading this sentence:
- The Sorting Hat hesitates and, by putting Harry in Gryffindor, it seals its fate.
- Another one could be that in that room, for the first time since his parents' death, he will face Voldemort again, though without knowing it because of the turban, but Voldemort had to recognize him since Harry felt the pain (DD says he feels when he is angry or murderous).
- Or the word "doom" means "ruin" and foreshadows the losses he will suffer in the future.
There are a lot of references to metals: From lead to silver and gold...
- lead: associated twice with Harry who is "feeling oddly as though his legs had turned to lead" before the sorting and after it "Harry's legs were as lead again." Lead is connected to Saturn, with all the symbolism we talked about. For alchemists, it was also a metal very close to gold, the one turned into gold by the PS. Here again, it may be a way of telling us Harry is at the beginning of his journey.
- silver: "the ghosts shone misty silver", DD has "silver hair", Bloody Baron's robes are "stained with silver blood". Silver is connected to the Moon and one of the students sorted is named "Moon" (I wonder if we will here about him/her again...)
- gold: there are "golden plates and goblets" on the tables and DD sits "in a large gold chair".
During the sorting, Harry "was looking at the black inside of the hat", another reference to the black materia prima at the beginning of his journey.
About Neville, Uncle Algie "pushed me [Neville] off the end of the Blackpool pier once". It is interesting that, since the first book, there is a mention of Neville's journey as well, and it begins at Blackpool, Neville's own black process.
The Caput Draconis password (geomancy), the magic of music and the 4 houses/4 elements already discussed (for the pensieve...).
The Gryffindor rooms: "round hole in the wall" to come in and the common room is "a round room". Round, seen as the solar symbol, connecting Gryffindor to the Fire element.
Harry's first significant dream, during his first night at Hogwarts, in which Quirrel's turban talks to him :"telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once because it was his destiny" but Harry fights ("Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin") -Harry's choice against Harry's abilities/legacy from Voldemort?- and then Voldemort's laugh and green light of the AK. The inner journey as began as well.
Sorry for the long post again, but this reread is so fascinating!
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Phoenix song - Jan 5, 2005 6:34 pm (#942 of 1121)
Hello all! This is my first posting on this thread...so please be gentle! I've been sharing via e-mail different thoughts about the series with Round Pink Spider and Elanor, and Elanor has suggested that I share a few of these things on this thread.
My first observation concerns the vault in Gringott's that contained the Sorcerer's Stone, number 713. At the end of POA, Dumbledore directs Harry and Hermione to rescue Sirius and pointedly tells them that he is in Professor Flitwick's office, which is found in the 13th window on the 7th floor. Most multi-leveled buildings number their rooms/offices so that the first number of a room is in reference to the floor that room is located upon. Hence, we can deduce that in a regular building, Flitwick's office would be #713...seven for the floor number and 13 for the room number. The same as the famous Gringott's vault number. We also know from Jo's website that vault #713 was originally intended to be the Potters' vault. So, this vault number was originally suppose to be attached to Harry more than to the keeper of the Stone.
Also, in the UK they position their dates so that the day precedes the numerical month. So Harry's birthday, July 31st, would be written numerically as 317...which is the mirror image (backward, like the Mirror of Erised's message) of 713. Mirrors, of course, seem to present clues, and I think that the 713 and the 317 most definitely relate to one another.
In numerology, the value of 713 and 317 are 11. (7 + 1 + 3 = 11) I'm not familiar enough with numerology to assign "values" to the numbers, but I've been told that 11 is "special" because it is a double one. The value of the vault number, and also Harry's birthday, being a "double one" relate back to the Prophecy. There were two people who could have filled the prophecy. There was a double set of children who could have been the "ONE with the power" to vanquish Lord Voldemort. Also, when Harry escapes the Dursleys at the beginning of POA and stays at the Leaky Cauldron for the remainder of the summer vacation, Tom puts him in Room 11. (Which, in reference to earlier posts, has a "brass" number 11 on the door.)
I'm not certain why Sirius was kept in Flitwick's office. I wonder if it doesn't have some symbolism tied in with Lily's reported aptitude for charm work. Hopefully we'll have more light shed on Flitwick in the future. I find his reliance on books in order to see things (literally, in order to see over the tables and desks) to be very Hermione-like and interesting in itself.
I also have some thoughts that I'd like to share regarding Mr. Ollivander's name possibly relating to "Olive vines" or olive branches...(extensions for peace) but this post is already quite long enough and I'll just save it for later.
Thanks for everybody's patience! Have a good night!
Barbie
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 5, 2005 7:23 pm (#943 of 1121)
Phoenix Song, a brilliant first post well done. I think ideas on Flitwick most insightful. I have always wondered whether Flitwick was Lily's mentor.
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Archangel - Jan 6, 2005 3:29 am (#944 of 1121)
Welcome to the thread Phoenix Song! I like the connections with the number 11.
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Round Pink Spider - Jan 6, 2005 6:22 am (#945 of 1121)
Last night, my daughter and I were rereading the scene in which Harry accidentally releases the snake from the zoo, and we realized that Harry and the snake were being equated with each other in the description.
They are both:
"protected" behind glass (Harry has round "glasses")
The description of Vernon tapping/rapping/drumming on the glass to wake the snake up is equated to Aunt Petunia hammering on the door to wake Harry up
When the glass disappeared, the snake (and information) were released, foreshadowing Harry's being released into the WW
Neither Harry nor the snake knew their parents; neither had seen the place they belong, but will (theoretically) on release (“Brazil, here I come…”)
They both wink
They speak the same language
After being "released," both “pretended” to threaten Dudley, but don’t actually harm him.
Our analysis indicates that wood is connected to protection, so "dying of boredom" (board-dom), as Harry thought the snake could, would mean being "protected to death", something Harry has almost experienced twice (being kept in a locked room at the beginning of CoS; DD keeping him in the dark too long in OotP).
Good job, by the way, Phoenix Song!
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Hollywand - Jan 6, 2005 10:41 am (#946 of 1121)
Great posts, everyone! Zelmia and Elanor, your lists on the chapters are just brilliant! Much more concise than my fevered rereading. Wow, it was a terrific broom ride, though! ;-)
I wanted to comment on Phoenix Song's association with Flitwick's office 713 and Harry's Vault 713 and birthday. Symbolically, this is a very astute detail to notice as a nexus. Harry's birthday is 317, the vault is 713 and the office is 713. The vault holds the gold, the site of the moment of discovery of the stone event. The birthday is the time event. 713 as Flitwick's office holds the spritual godfather, Sirius; at this juncture he escapes on the back of the hippogriff, the flying spirit. Later, this same symbolic individual will go through the veil as a nigredo process.
This whole series of events parallels the Alchemical processes posted earlier on this thread by Archangel, the Rosarium, I believe it is called.
I think many of the characters go through this process in different ways as part of their enoblement---for example, Harry and Hermione walk through the fire, ride on the hippogriff, descend into the water beneath the lake, etc.
Nice connection to notice, Phoenix Song.
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Elanor - Jan 6, 2005 12:23 pm (#947 of 1121)
Hi Hollywand and thanks, but you shown us the way brilliantly! I have so much fun doing that reread and taking notes: you should see me giggling all alone when finding those details I never saw the first times I read it (though I could have given myself a slap for not having thought to Dedalus Diggle before!). St Mungo, here I am...
I just loved Phoenix Song connections about the number 713 (welcome to the thread! ) and I knew everyone here would love it as well! Hollywand, you're true the symbol is very strong and I love you explanation about it. I would just add that, for me, it can be seen as a symbol of life as well:
- The Philosopher's stone is life, since it can give you eternal life and is the symbol of the ennoblement of the soul, this is what the alchemists called the "philosophical gold".
- For me, Harry is also symbolically the philosophical gold (remember the royal son of the king and the queen), he is The-Boy-Who-Lived, alive though he should be dead: he is life.
- Sirius is life too. His spirit should have died in Azkaban and did not. His soul should have died near the lake and did not. When Harry and Hermione save him from that room 713, they give him life again. He will die in OotP, but death is part of life and his death, though very sad, is part of Harry's journey. Does it make sense?
RPS, great connections about the snake! As we noticed some times ago, the snake is not necesseraly a "bad" symbol and this could be another proof of it, great work!
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Phoenix song - Jan 6, 2005 9:14 pm (#948 of 1121)
I thank all of you for your kind words and welcome! I have long been interested in the Alchemy symbols and their relation to the series, but have felt that I may not have much to contribute to the thread. My understanding in this area is limited and remedial at best. Round Pink Spider and Elanor have both furnished me with what I've termed "Alchemy Cliff Notes" that have helped me to understand the basics so that I can enjoy the discussions as well. (THANK YOU!!)
I am glad that my observations on the numbers have been helpful. I am naturally inclined to "pick up" clues related to word usage (and sometimes, the words that JKR doesn't use) numbers and colors, and I am pleased that these things can be related to the "higher" study of alchemy as well.
When JKR updated her website to report that Hermione's wand was made of a vine, I realized that the beginning of Mr. Ollivander's name sounds similar to "Olive vine". I began to wonder if an olive vine could be symbolically used as an "olive branch" to extend peace to other magical beings.
The belief that there must be harmony is becoming more clear as the series progresses. The three "historical" members that we've heard from (The Sorting Hat, Professor Binns, and Nearly Headless Nick) have all reported that harmony and peace is needed if Hogwarts (and by further extension the Wizarding World) is to survive. I feel that "Phoenix song" will become important in helping Voldemort to be overthrown, since we've already seen it benefiting Harry in the Chamber of Secrets and in the Goblet of Fire. I agree with RPS that it will be the "harmonia" that helps to bring about necessary change. I've also recently realized that the reason that it is described as an "unearthly sound" is because it fits in with the "air" symbolism group...and is therefore not "of the earth" category.
I wonder how the "Olive branch" of peace will fit into the series. We've already seen Dumbledore send one branch as a gift of peace, the branch of Gubraithian fire that he sends to the giants as a gift of peace and good will. I wonder if there will be other symbolic gifts to elicit understanding.
Have a good night all! And thank you for your welcome!
Barbie
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Elanor - Jan 7, 2005 1:05 pm (#949 of 1121)
You're welcome Phoenix Song! I do agree that there is something about Mr Ollivander's name and also about the date of the founding of Ollivander's: 382 BC. Some times ago on that thread, Nathan was saying that this date, 382, could be seen as 13 (3+8+2), a number which has often a negative meaning. And this is what came to my mind then:
But 382 is also 3+8+2=13, 1+3=4 and refer this could be a reference to the 4 elements, which would fit very well with a wand maker.
Besides, we know that Ollivander uses 3 different cores for his wands (unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, phoenix feather), so the number 13 can be seen as 10 + 3 as well: 3 for the 3 cores, and 10 for the ouroboros symbol. Which reminded me of DD saying that Harry's scar has been proved to be a curse and a blessing at the same time : we could say the same thing of Ollivander's wands, especially Voldemort's and Harry of course.
Finally, if you look at history, the 380s BC are very interesting. This is the golden age of the philosophers: Socrates has been poisoned a few years ago, Plato has just created his Academy and soon he will teach Aristotle, who is just born... I don't know why but Ollivanders reminds me of Greece, maybe because of the "ollive" root in it.
It would fit with the name Ollivander as a kind of play on words with "olive wand", or "olive vine" as you suggested, as a root name. So Jo seems to connect Ollivander's with Antiquity and from that time, the olive wood has always had a lot of symbolical meanings. It was, and still is, a symbol of peace and, especially of the return of the peace after wars or tragedies. Could that be a hint that, thanks to Ollivander's wands, peace in the Wizarding World will come again?
If we see the actual war as the continuation of the first fight between Slytherin's ideas and the ones of the other founders, which created the imbalance in the Wizarding World, then Ollivander's Voldemort and Harry's wands are a major fact in this conflict. Voldemort's wand first made things worse, but thanks to Harry's wand, the balance is likely to come again, as peace after war.
It is a great connection to make between the "Olive branch" and the branch of Gubraithian BTW!
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Hollywand - Jan 7, 2005 3:09 pm (#950 of 1121)
Here's a kind of bizarre association I thought I'd share here. I'm sure Jo does not refer to American history in her books, but find some interesting parallel with the names of the Death Eaters and the Ku Klux Klan. What follows is speculative history on an underground organization, so no dungbombs, please.
Ku Klux Klan is thought to be a derivation of "Kyklos", the Greek word for Circle. Sort of a derivation similar to Abra Cadabra, if you will. During the Civil War in the US a secret society arose in the North called The Knights of the Golden Circle. This secret society worked against the Lincoln Abraham/abolitionist movement to liberate slave labor. The Knights of the Golden Circle also referred to themselves at "Copperheads", which is the common folk name of a poisonous lowland snake common to the American South. The Ku Klux Klan, currently a very actively racist organization, takes pride in claiming historical association with The Knights of the Golden Circle.
KKK members wore masks or sheets while committing atrocities, terrorizing powerless people anonymously. They referred to their top leader as the Imperial Wizard or sometimes the Imperial Dragon. Isn't that an interesting set of parallels? The KKK also took, or take, I suppose I should say, unfortunately, great pride in associating themselves with the Nazi's agenda.
I remember as a kid seeing the letters KGC engraved on old tombstones---this was a way of revealing the identity of a Ku Klux Klan member by inscribing Knights of the Golden Circle.
It seems so cowardly to admit to such an evil affiliation only after one is safely underground, and beyond the reach of the karma they deserve.
To return to the copperhead snake. They are so fearsome in the South because they are so difficult to see. They are a kind of brown pink that blends in with water, dirt, leaves. Just looking at pictures of them gives me the creeps. We were deadly frightened of them as children.
Makes a great analogy for the Death Eaters and Voldemort.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 951 to 975)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:13 am
Elanor - Jan 7, 2005 3:43 pm (#951 of 1121)
Great post Hollywand, as usual! The analogy is really interesting. The DEs are hooded and masked and it gave me the idea of searching for the mask symbolism and this is rather interesting and fits very well with what you said.
The mask was worn by executioners once, as for Charles the 1rst beheading, because it took off death every human face. It can also hide the identity of someone for ever, as for the "man with the iron mask" enigma or, on the opposite, keep it for ever if it is a death mask as Greeks used to use.
Etymologically, the word "masque" in French, and most certainly "mask" in English as well, can be connected to the Italian word "maschera" which means "false face" and "maska", which means black but also the witch and the spectre. Appropriate, isn't it?
Executioners, hidden identity, false faces (and two-faced persons as well), black souls and a specter for chief, I think we've got our DEs, don't we? What do you think?
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Hollywand - Jan 7, 2005 4:34 pm (#952 of 1121)
Great reply, Elanor, and thank you! A tremendous French intellectual, I can't remember, Voltaire? has a great piece on the Executioner being held accountable for his "job", first working for royalty, then for the Enlightenment. Voltaire does a tremendous job of arguing the banality of evil.
Wormtail would probably take great pleasure in such a position. Yikes, perhaps he will in the forthcoming books.
Apologies for my poor feeble memory. Think of my good points. ;-) I beg.
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Archangel - Jan 7, 2005 7:33 pm (#953 of 1121)
Great connections all round!
Just wanted to add this to the mix, Hermione and Viktor share the same wand core -- dragon heartstring. Perhaps, that was the ice- breaker topic when they hooked up in GoF? "So... what's your wand core?"
Viktor's wand wood is hornbeam.
I found this tidbit about the hornbeam: "used against feelings of exhaustion and tiredness that come before an effort has been made. The person in this state feels that he or she is too tired to cope with the demands of the day. It's easier to stay in bed or put off making a start - but if an effort can be made to get started the weariness will fade, a sign that unlike the Olive state this is a mental rather than a physical weariness."
Olive state mentioned there means "remedy for tiredness and exhaustion after an effort of some kind such as hard physical or mental labour, or the long struggle against illness".
Interesting that these two trees are really symbols of serenity and peace. The hornbeam seems to be more geared to alleviating any anxieties or doubts that the person has in performing his/her role and/or task.
In GOF, Ollivander and Krum met. IIRC, Olive wand had some apprehensions about Krum's wand though...
I also found this interesting passage about the Hornbeam tree. "The Hornbeam, according to Sir J. E. Smith, is generally "a rigid tree, of humble growth, but when standing by itself, allowed to take its natural form, will make a much handsomer tree than most people are aware of.""
This sort of matches Viktor's demeanor in GoF. He really doesn't attract that much attention to himself or at call attention to himself unlike Draco despite his athletic and magical prowess. This passage coupled with the associations made with hornbeam tree actually made me remember Hollywand's post about the possibility of Krum being the HBP. Perhaps, Mr. Krum isn't ready to fulfill his obligations as member of the royal family but is being pressured to do so?
What do you think?
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Sharing the same core: Harry - Voldemort = Phoenix Feathers (Life vs Death) Hermione - Krum = Dragon Heartstring (1st romantic pairing) Ron - Cedric = Unicorn hair (The innocent is the first one to go? )
SIDE NOTE: In JKR's site, it was mentioned that Ron was given an Ash wood wand, which is similar to Cedric's. However, in PoA, Ron said that his wand was made of willow. Hmmmm...so which one is it?
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Elanor - Jan 8, 2005 2:01 pm (#954 of 1121)
Hornbeam! That is interesting Archangel! Do you know what it is called in French? "Charme", it is the same word that can also mean "charm" (he has a certain charm for Hermione) and "charm" (the spell). Another curious detail: the hornbeam's flowers (the catkins) appear in winter, in the cold, appropriate for someone coming from the cold. About Ron's wand, I am rather confused as well, but I have no doubt Jo will answer that on her site one of those days.
LOL Hollywand, I have to say that I don't remember which philosopher of the Enlightment worked on that either (shame on me!). Voltaire or Diderot sounds good to me! But I do agree about Wormtail liking the job.
But hope may eventually come from the circle of the executioners. On other threads, some times ago, there were parallels drawn between some HP characters and the ones of "The Three Musketeers" and speaking about executioners reminds me of the Béthune's executioner in the Three Musketeers. Executioner because his father was, hating his job, living alone, keeping out of the way of the others, feared. A learned man too, working on plants in his house. Oh my, I've just realized it could be connected with Snape!
I have just started the chapter 8 of PS The Potions Master and I am struck by the way Jo discribes the castle on Harry's first day, with its 142 staircases (1+4+2=7, the magic number again!) some "wide, sweeping ones; narrow rickety ones" in which "all seemed to move a lot" and I was thinking to the alchemical image of Hogwarts seen as a body we talked about. Staircases and corridors could be seen as veins, some being arteries, some smaller blood vessels in which blood/magic would circulate, hence the feeling of movement.
Another funny detail: Harry has astronomy class on Wednesdays, Mercury day, and at midnight (12)! How not to think to "The twelve keys of the Philosophy" by Basile Valentin and other references to the number 12 connected with all the Mercury/planets symbolism we talked about? I like that one... I will finish the chapter tomorrow!
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Hollywand - Jan 8, 2005 2:26 pm (#955 of 1121)
Great details Archangel and Elanor!!
May I offer to buy you a Wizard Maker? That would be.....a Firewhisky chased with a Butterbeer, guaranteed to bring out the wizard in you! ;-)
Archangel, I think you are on to some great possible clues about the directions of the plot. I personally think that Rowling is setting fans up for the sucker punch-----the obvious suggestions in the books are red herrings.
I will be the first to sign up for the Stoat Sandwich Club if I am wrong, (gulp), but I think two red herrings are---Ron will die, and Ron will be paired with Hermione, not necessarily in that order :-)
Think of what she did at Christmas. She put the "Advent Calender" on her site----the red herring was the fact that calendar was misspelled. I couldn't believe she didn't realize this error, so interpreted the misspelling that something else was brewing in the cauldron. I figured she would give us something on the longest night of the year, a wonderful symbolic gesture to light a candle against the dark, and celebrate life. Exactly what she did. The Calender then, was anti-climactic, and a joke, meaning, the big blue candy caper.
I think, whilst the masses are bashing down the door on her site, she is putting other more significant signifiers in difficult to decipher code. It's so charming to be part of this----here's someone who really knows how to ride the wave, once it arrives and the dream comes true.
So what red herrings do I think are also out there? I think the mistake about Ron's "Ash" wand is intentional as a red herring. I could be dead wrong, but I think she her fans so stoked about Ron dying, that instead, we will all be shocked when a different Weasley or two take it on the chin. My guess? Ginny. or Percy. Or both; they are quite ambiguous in their positions in the series.
If the Hermione/Krum pairing does happen, it will also be a shock. She's an incredibly brave woman if she chooses this pathway, or maybe she really does have a secret hideaway in Bolivia. She will need it!!!! I can see a Flock Of Howlers Flying.......I just love this series!!!! ;-)
Jo, you are wonderful!!!!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 8, 2005 9:45 pm (#956 of 1121)
Severus Snape's birthday being in January has some notable connotations given Snape's history.
The month of January is named after the Roman god Janus. Janus, is the ancient Roman god of doors, gates and beginnings and endings. He is often depicted as having two heads one looking forward and one backward.
It is also possible to hypothesize about the wood used in the construction of his wand. If J.K. Rowling continued to assign woods based on that ancient Celtic idea that assigns a sacred wood to specific month.
If this holds true then it is possible that the wand used by Snape is made of Birch.
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Hollywand - Jan 8, 2005 10:53 pm (#957 of 1121)
Wow, Nathan, that's a tremedous set of associations to link to Severus and his birthday. Glorious work and congratulations!!
I hope you all will find this tangentially different train of thought interesting to our discussion:
Perhaps what lies behind the Mystery Door is not specifically love but pathos. Pathos connects the concepts of suffering, disease, and feeling in a conceptual triad. Pathos commonly refers to the personal statement the artist makes when creating a work; in this way, Jo's suffering over the death of her mother is deeply connected to the creation of the story and Harry's losses in a powerful triad. She IS the Ouroboros!
Intimately connected to Pathos is Empathy: the projection of one's own personality into the personality of another in order to understand him better.
This would explain why Lily's charm rebounded on Voldemort. At the moment of her death, Harry is filled to overflowing with her loving sacrifice. When Voldemort strikes Harry with his curse, Harry is a cup already full, just as he fills himself up with the grieving over the loss of Sirius, and Voldemort cannot inhabit Harry's being. This is why Sirius had to die====his death is linked to understanding Lily's death, and Harry's subsequent ability to withstand Voldemort's onslaught.
This also explains why Rowling has chosen eye color as a secondary element to the deeper meaning of Pathos. The real point is not in the symbolic colors----but the characters as Mirrors-----Harry is a crystal Mirror of Purity and Compassion at the moment Voldemort strikes him, and Voldemort's curse is reflected, some powers transferred.
Harry's overflowing compassion could be the reason Voldemort is not completely extinguished, but I think not---I think Voldie has fragmented and compartmentalized his soul to survive. The Codswallop/Eau de Voldie theory.
Understanding the power of Pathos is why Dumbledore encourages Harry to embrace his suffering and grief after the loss of Sirius.
Book Six will be a progression of understanding through Pathos.
Thoughts? I know it doesn't add up to forty-two, but, what the hey...... ;-) Math obviously isn't my strong point.....
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Elanor - Jan 8, 2005 11:12 pm (#958 of 1121)
That is very interesting Hollywand! Here again, we find the mirror image. I always thought that a way for Harry to vanquish Voldemort would be to show him - reflect him - his own inner emptiness, in a way, to be "a mirror" Voldemort wouldn't stand.
Snape's birthday! I like the Janus connection very much Nathan, great work! Now, that becomes interesting because Capricorn is bound to Saturn and, of course lead and to the colour black. Saturn is the melancholy planet, bound to ideas of sullenness, old men, orphans, heirs, deep researches, perfect memory, dungeons (yes!), great loneliness but also inclination for works that demand painstaking attention to detail, patience. It is bound to destruction but also to rebirth.
Lead can be turned into gold thanks to the Philosopher's stone! In other words, Snape can be redeemed because of Harry.
Now the numbers are interesting as well: 9 is the essence of the 3, the perfect number, and 1 the unity of the macrocosm and the microcosm. 9+1= 10, the ouroboros number again.
So, Snape's birthday could well confirm that there are redemptive qualities in him.
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Archangel - Jan 9, 2005 2:06 am (#959 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! Interesting thoughts on mirrors and pathos. Hopefully, HBP will contain the whole Godric's Hollow attack so we'd really know what happened. I'm looking forward to reading Lily-Voldemort exchanges. Hope Lily has some great lines a la McG in OOP!
Nathan, the Janus-Snape connection is wonderful. Great job in spotting that one.
Elanor, you beat me to the punch! When I first saw that Snape's birthday is January 9, I gasped because I saw the numbers 10 and 1 flashing before my eyes!!! Your associations are also right on the spot.
I also think that the number 1 could be another way of describing Snape's character. He is a loner, we don't see him being friendly with his students and fellow teachers. He stands alone in his dangerous mission in the upcoming war -- is he working for Voldemort or for the Order -- either way, if he is uncovered, he faces the possibility of losing his life. He is pretty much on his own. He also places importance in rankings and rewards (Order of Merit anyone?) in his desire to be recognized -- to be #1. He resented James and Sirius during their school days because they were better than him in academics and athletics, among other things.
My apprehension about the number 10, the Ouroborus and Snape is that he might be working for Voldemort all along just like everyone suspected. This might just be something that is uncovered in the remaining books -- from Voldemort, to Voldemort. I kept thinking about 24's first season wherein my friends and I had suspicions that Nina was the traitor but also kept thinking that "Nah! She couldn't be" and just got floored when it turns out she is the traitor in the end. I worry too since "1" could also mean "I'm putting myself first".
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Archangel - Jan 9, 2005 5:51 am (#960 of 1121)
I followed the link that Nathan provided in his Snape-Janus post and went on to read what it says about ASH, VINE, and HOLLY and I was shocked with what I read.
VINE: (Hermione)
Zodiac: Libra (Sign of justice, Hermione's cause about house-elves and equal treatment, Rita Skeeter in GoF and OoP)
Celtic Symbol: The White Swan (Cho's patronus is a swan; is it possible that Cho's wand wood is vine as well and this is JKR's way of giving Hermione and Cho a common thing? Or perhaps this is an attribute to Hermione's transformation in GoF during the Yule Ball -- ugly duckling to a swan?)
Gods: Kronos ("chronos" is the Greek word for Time, and if I'm not mistaken this god is in charge of controlling Time. Hermione had a time-turner. She was the one who recognized the Time Room in MoM); Dionysus (god of wine; The wine of life? Vine is associated with rebirth as well)
Planet: Venus (in alchemy, this is associated to Copper. Goddess of Love)
Tarot: The Heirophant (Again, if I'm not mistaken, a heirophant is somewhat of a scholar -- interprets secret knowledge, keeps official learning and all that. Hermione studies runes and arithmancy which is all about symbols and clues. She knows everything or at least tries to.)
Also interesting the symbol for Vine looks like a slanted cross. Is wonky the same as slanted? If it is, Ron mentioned something about wonky cross in Divination and that it stands for suffering/hardship. Hermione's in for a ride in Book 6 me thinks...
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ASH: (Ron/Cedric)
Based on the zodiac, planet, gods, etc. associated to this wood, I'm inclined to think that the Ash remark in JKR's site is um... a diversion (the right word escapes me). The associations are all pointing to the element of water, which Ron is not associated with. The tree is also associated a lot to the underworld. Ron hasn't had any dealings with the underworld that I know of.
However, the Tarot association of this wood, though, made me pause. It is associated to the "Hanged Man" which stands for sacrifice and the chess play in PS/SS immediately comes to mind.
The more I think about Cedric's actions in GoF made me think that he too made sacrifices. He doesn't brag about the win over Gryffindor even though others do. He could have done what Harry asked and just claimed the championship by his lonesome but he didn't. Cedric was also the first contact that Harry's had with the "underworld" or the dead when Cedric's echo appeared during the graveyard fight. Cedric was doomed in GoF and JKR has given the clue as early as in the Weighing of the Wands chapter and nobody picked up on it!
"The Hanged Man is one of the most mysterious cards in the tarot deck. It is simple, but complex. It attracts, but also disturbs. It contradicts itself in countless ways. The Hanged Man is unsettling because it symbolizes the action of paradox in our lives. A paradox is something that appears contradictory, and yet is true. The Hanged Man presents to us certain truths, but they are hidden in their opposites."
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HOLLY: (Harry)
"Magickal (sic) Associations: Protection, prophecy... This tree has a powerful link to the spirit world. A symbol of the points between life, death, and rebirth, on both the physical and emotional planes. ...
Key Word: Balance "
O...K... Enough said.
The tarot association is the Emperor which is a leadership card. It is closely associated to being a protector and a defender of others. Harry has these traits and then some. Interestingly enough, this card is reinforced by the Heirophant card (Hermione's) because they are both seen as being related to rules, authority, etc. Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why Hermione assumed that Harry would be made a prefect during their 5th year. He has that natural ability to lead.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 9, 2005 12:17 pm (#961 of 1121)
Archangel,
Here is some additional information on vine that is contained in MorganLaFey's work Sacred Trees, Oghams and Celtic Symbolism
The Vine is the symbol of sensuality and emotions. A hardy, long lived plant. It's symbol, the White Swan represents the radiant divinity of the Gods who are said to go to their underground forts during the Autumn Equinox. The White Swan is also associated with the White Ghost or the White Phantom - Gwenhwyvar. To the Celts, the Autumn Equinox is a time when the light will eventually give up its hold to the darkness, but for a brief moment all is in balance. The light and the dark hold equal positions. To the Celtic mind it represents the balance of the mundane and the supernatural; the mortal and the immortal.
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The association with Gwenhwyvar is most interesting and could indicate a secondary association with the Empress. Also, Morgan LaFey's work illustrates the close connection between the Birch and the Elder. The symbolism of which reminds me of an arch or doorway leading from one year to the next.
According to her work the assignment of a mahogany wand to James Potter could possibly indicate a birthdate between March 18th and April 14th. While, the assignment of a wand made of willow to Lily could possibly indicate a birthdate between April 15th and May 12th.
This other link also has some additional information about trees sacred to the Celts.
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Elanor - Jan 9, 2005 12:39 pm (#962 of 1121)
LOL Archangel! Yes, it was the first thing I thought as well when I saw Snape's birthday on Jo's site: the number 10 as plain as his hooked nose on his face!
I can't help but think Snape's birthday is very encouraging for his behaviour in the books to come and a clue to his redemption, but I understand what worries you.
In alchemy, the 1, the unity, is THE principle. "Hen ta penta", "one, the whole". The one means union, harmony, conjunction of the opposites. It is a very positive number so I think it augurs well Snape's future, though we don't know if he will survive the redemption process...
Great work about the trees meaning! I'd just want to say that Hermione is a Virgo (born on September the 19th) and not a Libra but the connection with Venus is really great because it is a reference we often find. I also love the connection between ash and the Hanged Man we keep finding as well. Hmm...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm (#963 of 1121)
In his treatise on Sacred Trees entitled In Worship of Trees George Knowles describes the willow tree in the following manner.
The Willow tree (Salix alba) has long had associations with Wicca/Witchcraft and figures in the folklore and mythology of many cultures. The botanical name of the Willow 'Salix' comes from the Celtic word 'sal' - meaning near, and “lis” - meaning water. Because the Willow grows rapidly and has deep tough roots, they are widely planted to check soil erosion particularly on the banks of rivers and streams. It also flourishes in the moist ground found in many temperate regions throughout the world. As the Alder tree is known as the 'King of the Waters' so the Willow became known as its 'Queen'.
This interesting because one of the scenes between James and Lily that we as readers have been privy to thus far occurred near the Lake. I wonder how could this close association to water relate to James and Lily? Also, the reference to the Alder and Willow as the King and Queen of Water possibly allude to an assocciaton with the Emperor/Hierophant for James and the Empress/High Priestess for Lily.
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Elanor - Jan 10, 2005 1:07 pm (#964 of 1121)
Great catch Nathan because this is another reference to add to our "James and Lily / King and Queen" alchemical symbolism! Don't you think so?
These are some more thoughts about the chapter 8 - The Potions Master
- Quirrel's class "smelled strongly of garlic". If we look at the alchemical connections about plants, it is funny to notice that garlic is connected both to Mercury and Mars.
- "a funny smell hung around the turban" of Quirrel. The twins say that it smells of garlic as well, but I wonder if it could not be another reference to the nigredo process because the beginning of the work is meant to emit a real stench. This smell remains till the albedo process: the stone, become pure, smells good then, before stinking again at the beginning of the rubedo process till the stone is achieved and has a sweet smell again. Smells are something we didn't really notice till now, it could be another thing to pay attention to in the reread.
- Snape's eyes are black "They were very cold and empty and made you think of dark tunnels". The eyes of a superb Occlumens, no doubt about that and other references to nigredo (dark, tunnels).
- I've searched about the ingredients Snape asks Harry about in this lesson and that is fascinating.
* "the Draught of Living Death", made with powdered root of Asphodel and an infusion of wormwood. Asphodel is connected to Saturn and was meant to grow on meadows of the underworld for the dead. It was meant to cure some poisons and to make evil spirits flee. It is a liliaceous plant, as are lily, moly (the magic plant we talked about) and... garlic! Wormwood is Artemis' plant and is connected to Venus and Mars. It was also an ingredient for absinth liquor, the one romantic poets used to drink for reaching "artificial heavens", the one that drove them crazy as well and made them die early. Explosive mixture if there is one!
* a bezoar, used against poisons.
* monkhood and wolfsbane, also called aconite". This a very powerful poison as well.
So, we have a terrible poison, a powerful sleeping potion, the appearance of death, and a counter poison. Death as the 13th card of the major arcana, the nigredo again, the symbolical death that makes someone ascend, the precondition for the rebirth, the counter poison. Does it make sense?
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Hollywand - Jan 10, 2005 3:15 pm (#965 of 1121)
Great research Elanor! I wondered about the "smell" analogy when reading the books. Now that you point this out---Rowling seems to offer a hidden metaphor regarding the traitor in each book, if the reader can decipher the code:
---characters who appear pale are often being influenced by Voldemort
----with Quirrel, it was the garlic smell, and the turban dreams.
-----with Scabbers, it was the Sneakoscope, and Crookshanks.
Maybe in Book Six I will be able to crack the code as I am reading rather than in hindsight.....one can always dream......
On Severus' dark tunnel eyes----tunnels refering to the Chamber of Secrets, and the underground dwellings of snakes.......
Elanor and I were discussing the Pathos/Compassion connection between Harry and Snape as a metaphor. Harry's greatest gift may be his compassion, and Severus, as an Occlumens, seems to have a similar gift, only the umbra side to Harry's bright side---that is, a connection between pain, suffering and feeling bringing the gift of compassion, projection of one's self into the personality of another person.
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Elanor - Jan 11, 2005 1:24 pm (#966 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! I do agree about the traitor and now that I think about it, I wonder if garlic could not be a way for Quirrel to try to protect himself from Voldemort's possession.
Since liliaceous plants share the property of making evil spirits flee or protecting people against magic (as moly and asphodel do), I wonder if it could not be a vainly way for what remained of Quirrel's personality to fight Voldemort, as for Crouch fighting the Imperius curse somehow. Only the twins say that Quirrel's turban smelt of garlic as well but I wonder if Quirrel's garlic and Voldemort's stench are not two different things that mix. Yuk!
I love the pathos/compassion connection you made. As we said on the new DADA thread, this is the mirror image again. In that perspective, Snape can be seen as "the mirror" of Harry, his image in the dark. When Harry's feelings are turned towards the others, Snape's are turned in on himself. This is another couple of opposites too. The more we make progress in the story, the more we realize what Snape and Harry have in common, which they find out as well, though reluctantly.
Couples of opposites are meant to make a conjunction in alchemy, in other words the two sides of the mirror have to join so that something positive would come out of it. It will be hard for both of them but a lot of things could depend on their ability to work together or not.
Dark tunnels and the Chamber of secrets... That is a great analogy too! Those eyes keep a lot of secrets indeed. Harry opened the chamber's door and was able to open Snape's eyes' door too once, he may do that again.
BTW, in both cases, Voldemort's "gift" helped opening those doors (parseltongue and legilimency skills from the Dark Lords?). And Harry kept dreaming of corridors and doors in OotP under Voldemort's influence. Hmm, there is certainly more about that...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 12, 2005 12:20 pm (#967 of 1121)
Elanor I am more inclined to view James and Lily as the Hierophant and High Priestess figures because of their non secular natures. gJ.K. Rowling has said that Harry is not the HBP whuch tend to lend itself to the non secular coupling, Unless, Godric Gryffindor is the HBP and Harry is his descendant then then it is possible that James and Lily could be the Emperor/Empress coupling.
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Elanor - Jan 12, 2005 1:33 pm (#968 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! Actually, I think both images can work. The Empress represents reason and discernment and the Emperor is a mediator, he executes divines plans about men and the universe. I like the last one very much because as Prongs, the patronus, James is indeed a mediator between Harry and what threatens him. This is a great catch!
But I think the image of the king and the queen can work too. These are not real king and queen, but alchemical symbols of a couple of opposites as are the Sun and the Moon, that is to say symbols of Sulfur and Mercury. They have to make a conjunction, which is a complex thing because in a conjunction, each element remains as it is but "inside" something higher.
Symbolicaly, from the conjunction of the king and the queen, of the Sun and the Moon, a child is born, symbolizing the philosophical gold. Which is a nice image of Harry I think. His parents can be seen in him as two separate elements (he looks like his father, has his mother's eyes...) but their "conjunction" created something higher, Harry, meant to save the Wizarding World from Voldemort and act as a living Philosopher's stone symbolicaly. Does it make sense? I feel I express myself badly, I'm sorry! BTW, to be honest, I'm not sure I could write it better in French anyway, LOL!
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Elanor - Jan 12, 2005 2:31 pm (#969 of 1121)
Oops! Too late for editing! After writing the previous post, I have searched a little more about the Hierophant and the High Priestess cards and this is interesting because it is very much the same symbol.
The High Priestess is also the Moon card, and the Moon is the Queen in alchemy!
The Hierophant is very close to the Emperor because he is a mediator as well and this powerful image fits well with James.
I love this thread!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 12, 2005 4:01 pm (#970 of 1121)
Elanor, the four figures of the High Priestess(Popess), Emperor Empress, and Hierophant(Pope) are exmplified by the Potters and Longbottoms. The nature of the ptophecy tends to lend itself to this idea.
I wonder whether Hagrid holds more clues to the septology than it might at first appear because, his title of Keeper of Keys and Grounds interests me especially since the word key can ghave many meanings.
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Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 10:12 pm (#971 of 1121)
There is something about evil that is connected with bad smells. The troll smelled terrible. Quirrell's turban smells bad. The twins say it is full of garlic ... but do we know for certain that this is true? Could it just have been a foul smell associated with having Voldemort inhabiting the back of his head?
If Quirrel did indeed stuff his turban full of garlic, could it have been to ward off a Vampire ... like Snape, for example? (Yes, I want to believe Snape is a bat and a Vampire. LOL)
Solitaire
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Elanor - Jan 13, 2005 12:50 pm (#972 of 1121)
Solitaire, about Quirrel's turban's smell, that was exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it better than I did! We should definitely pay attention to smells, bad or good, in the books!
About Snape, well I rather see him as a crow but a bat could fit, though I'm not convinced he is a vampire (poor boy, he has enough on his plate like that! ). But bats make me think to the saying "as blind as a bat" and Snape is nearsighted in a lot of ways: about the marauders, about Harry, about his own feelings. This is another connection with Harry BTW: Harry is physically nearsighted, but Snape is emotionally nearsighted.
Nathan, I like your remarks very much! Yes, Hagrid may hold other keys to Harry's future...
I have continued my reread of PS, this is what I noticed about the Chapter 9 - The Midnight Duel
- The "fool" is mentioned twice. First Harry says : "Just what I always wanted. To make a fool of myself on a broomstick in front of Malfoy" and Ron answers "You don't know you'll make a fool of yourself"
The Fool, is the first and the last card of the major arcana. He is the "zero", the symbol of the evolution, the one who seeks the truth. His madness is his superior wisdom. Interesting to find the fool connected with Harry since, during his first flying lesson, he will discover a truth about himself, that he is "a natural" on a broom.
- Neville's Remembrall: it is full of white smoke which turns red when you have forgotten something. From white to red, as in the alchemical process. I love that one!
- The Midnight Duel title: midnight: 12 and duel: 2 of them. The same numbers again.
- About Harry's flying skills, these sentences rang a bell: "Harry knew, somehow, what to do" and "The boy is a natural". Well, we know that James was good on a broom but I am becoming suspicious when I read that Harry knows how to do something like this because it reminds me of Voldemort's skills like Parsetongue. I hope that flying is a skill inherited from his father, but what if Voldemort's abilities had reinforced those natural skills? After all, except for the Dark Arts, we know very little thing about him. If one day, in the next books, there was more about this, it would have been under our noses from the start, as Peter was (hence the Fool mention?).
- There are other little things that rang some bells somehow, though I don't know if they are important or not but they may need further thoughts (it was a hard day at school and my brain works too slowly tonight):
*Malfoy has an "eagle owl", Neville a "barn owl".
*Mme Hooch has "yellow eyes like a hawk"
*The new password "pig snout"
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 13, 2005 5:29 pm (#973 of 1121)
There is an an interest point about the midnight duel. In the book it involves four Gryffndor's the trio plus Neville who joined them in there expidition because he had fogotten the passwords and the Fat Lady would not admit him.
They are supposed to face three Slytherin's Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle for a total of 7 participants.
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Hollywand - Jan 13, 2005 5:50 pm (#974 of 1121)
Elanor, I thought your discussion of "Mors Mordre" on another thread was quite interesting since it repeats the notion of biting and Voldemort's ability to summon the death eaters. He summons them directly after he is reincarnated, and just before he spins Peter's "silvery like the Moonlight" hand. This seems a key alchemical process being described, one, two three. Snake bites his tail? The sleeping dragon awakens?
Could Morsmordre and Felix Felicis have a connection? Seems like some interesting sound bites going on there.
I am thrilled at yours and Solitaire's contributions that Durmstrang is located by the water, could signify an approaching psychological storm, and could be near Norway and Sweden, where there are some serious dragons to contend with, and encounter. I noticed that Harry develops a definite affection for dragons after his trial in the Triwizard Tournament---from fear to affection. It's unclear if his Parsel tounge skills extend to dragons, but it's certainly implied in the passage. He convinces the dragon to rise into the air with him---seems like a key alchemical metaphor.
I also want to register somewhere, how sad and shocked I was today by seeing Prince Harry Saxe-Coburg Windsor in a Nazi uniform today on the news. I felt wounded in my heart. To think what the Nazis cost everyone in Europe, the loss of life, the suffering. It was so depressing, even for an adolescent prank. It also made me think how timeless Rowling's parable about royalty and blood lineage is for all of us; and how little humans learn from their mistakes......
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 13, 2005 7:52 pm (#975 of 1121)
There is detail I remembered about Ollivander's eyes. They were described in Harry's visit to Ollivander's as shining like bright moons.
Solitaire, that is interesting I hadn't noticed that before.
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Great post Hollywand, as usual! The analogy is really interesting. The DEs are hooded and masked and it gave me the idea of searching for the mask symbolism and this is rather interesting and fits very well with what you said.
The mask was worn by executioners once, as for Charles the 1rst beheading, because it took off death every human face. It can also hide the identity of someone for ever, as for the "man with the iron mask" enigma or, on the opposite, keep it for ever if it is a death mask as Greeks used to use.
Etymologically, the word "masque" in French, and most certainly "mask" in English as well, can be connected to the Italian word "maschera" which means "false face" and "maska", which means black but also the witch and the spectre. Appropriate, isn't it?
Executioners, hidden identity, false faces (and two-faced persons as well), black souls and a specter for chief, I think we've got our DEs, don't we? What do you think?
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Hollywand - Jan 7, 2005 4:34 pm (#952 of 1121)
Great reply, Elanor, and thank you! A tremendous French intellectual, I can't remember, Voltaire? has a great piece on the Executioner being held accountable for his "job", first working for royalty, then for the Enlightenment. Voltaire does a tremendous job of arguing the banality of evil.
Wormtail would probably take great pleasure in such a position. Yikes, perhaps he will in the forthcoming books.
Apologies for my poor feeble memory. Think of my good points. ;-) I beg.
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Archangel - Jan 7, 2005 7:33 pm (#953 of 1121)
Great connections all round!
Just wanted to add this to the mix, Hermione and Viktor share the same wand core -- dragon heartstring. Perhaps, that was the ice- breaker topic when they hooked up in GoF? "So... what's your wand core?"
Viktor's wand wood is hornbeam.
I found this tidbit about the hornbeam: "used against feelings of exhaustion and tiredness that come before an effort has been made. The person in this state feels that he or she is too tired to cope with the demands of the day. It's easier to stay in bed or put off making a start - but if an effort can be made to get started the weariness will fade, a sign that unlike the Olive state this is a mental rather than a physical weariness."
Olive state mentioned there means "remedy for tiredness and exhaustion after an effort of some kind such as hard physical or mental labour, or the long struggle against illness".
Interesting that these two trees are really symbols of serenity and peace. The hornbeam seems to be more geared to alleviating any anxieties or doubts that the person has in performing his/her role and/or task.
In GOF, Ollivander and Krum met. IIRC, Olive wand had some apprehensions about Krum's wand though...
I also found this interesting passage about the Hornbeam tree. "The Hornbeam, according to Sir J. E. Smith, is generally "a rigid tree, of humble growth, but when standing by itself, allowed to take its natural form, will make a much handsomer tree than most people are aware of.""
This sort of matches Viktor's demeanor in GoF. He really doesn't attract that much attention to himself or at call attention to himself unlike Draco despite his athletic and magical prowess. This passage coupled with the associations made with hornbeam tree actually made me remember Hollywand's post about the possibility of Krum being the HBP. Perhaps, Mr. Krum isn't ready to fulfill his obligations as member of the royal family but is being pressured to do so?
What do you think?
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Sharing the same core: Harry - Voldemort = Phoenix Feathers (Life vs Death) Hermione - Krum = Dragon Heartstring (1st romantic pairing) Ron - Cedric = Unicorn hair (The innocent is the first one to go? )
SIDE NOTE: In JKR's site, it was mentioned that Ron was given an Ash wood wand, which is similar to Cedric's. However, in PoA, Ron said that his wand was made of willow. Hmmmm...so which one is it?
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Elanor - Jan 8, 2005 2:01 pm (#954 of 1121)
Hornbeam! That is interesting Archangel! Do you know what it is called in French? "Charme", it is the same word that can also mean "charm" (he has a certain charm for Hermione) and "charm" (the spell). Another curious detail: the hornbeam's flowers (the catkins) appear in winter, in the cold, appropriate for someone coming from the cold. About Ron's wand, I am rather confused as well, but I have no doubt Jo will answer that on her site one of those days.
LOL Hollywand, I have to say that I don't remember which philosopher of the Enlightment worked on that either (shame on me!). Voltaire or Diderot sounds good to me! But I do agree about Wormtail liking the job.
But hope may eventually come from the circle of the executioners. On other threads, some times ago, there were parallels drawn between some HP characters and the ones of "The Three Musketeers" and speaking about executioners reminds me of the Béthune's executioner in the Three Musketeers. Executioner because his father was, hating his job, living alone, keeping out of the way of the others, feared. A learned man too, working on plants in his house. Oh my, I've just realized it could be connected with Snape!
I have just started the chapter 8 of PS The Potions Master and I am struck by the way Jo discribes the castle on Harry's first day, with its 142 staircases (1+4+2=7, the magic number again!) some "wide, sweeping ones; narrow rickety ones" in which "all seemed to move a lot" and I was thinking to the alchemical image of Hogwarts seen as a body we talked about. Staircases and corridors could be seen as veins, some being arteries, some smaller blood vessels in which blood/magic would circulate, hence the feeling of movement.
Another funny detail: Harry has astronomy class on Wednesdays, Mercury day, and at midnight (12)! How not to think to "The twelve keys of the Philosophy" by Basile Valentin and other references to the number 12 connected with all the Mercury/planets symbolism we talked about? I like that one... I will finish the chapter tomorrow!
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Hollywand - Jan 8, 2005 2:26 pm (#955 of 1121)
Great details Archangel and Elanor!!
May I offer to buy you a Wizard Maker? That would be.....a Firewhisky chased with a Butterbeer, guaranteed to bring out the wizard in you! ;-)
Archangel, I think you are on to some great possible clues about the directions of the plot. I personally think that Rowling is setting fans up for the sucker punch-----the obvious suggestions in the books are red herrings.
I will be the first to sign up for the Stoat Sandwich Club if I am wrong, (gulp), but I think two red herrings are---Ron will die, and Ron will be paired with Hermione, not necessarily in that order :-)
Think of what she did at Christmas. She put the "Advent Calender" on her site----the red herring was the fact that calendar was misspelled. I couldn't believe she didn't realize this error, so interpreted the misspelling that something else was brewing in the cauldron. I figured she would give us something on the longest night of the year, a wonderful symbolic gesture to light a candle against the dark, and celebrate life. Exactly what she did. The Calender then, was anti-climactic, and a joke, meaning, the big blue candy caper.
I think, whilst the masses are bashing down the door on her site, she is putting other more significant signifiers in difficult to decipher code. It's so charming to be part of this----here's someone who really knows how to ride the wave, once it arrives and the dream comes true.
So what red herrings do I think are also out there? I think the mistake about Ron's "Ash" wand is intentional as a red herring. I could be dead wrong, but I think she her fans so stoked about Ron dying, that instead, we will all be shocked when a different Weasley or two take it on the chin. My guess? Ginny. or Percy. Or both; they are quite ambiguous in their positions in the series.
If the Hermione/Krum pairing does happen, it will also be a shock. She's an incredibly brave woman if she chooses this pathway, or maybe she really does have a secret hideaway in Bolivia. She will need it!!!! I can see a Flock Of Howlers Flying.......I just love this series!!!! ;-)
Jo, you are wonderful!!!!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 8, 2005 9:45 pm (#956 of 1121)
Severus Snape's birthday being in January has some notable connotations given Snape's history.
The month of January is named after the Roman god Janus. Janus, is the ancient Roman god of doors, gates and beginnings and endings. He is often depicted as having two heads one looking forward and one backward.
It is also possible to hypothesize about the wood used in the construction of his wand. If J.K. Rowling continued to assign woods based on that ancient Celtic idea that assigns a sacred wood to specific month.
If this holds true then it is possible that the wand used by Snape is made of Birch.
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Hollywand - Jan 8, 2005 10:53 pm (#957 of 1121)
Wow, Nathan, that's a tremedous set of associations to link to Severus and his birthday. Glorious work and congratulations!!
I hope you all will find this tangentially different train of thought interesting to our discussion:
Perhaps what lies behind the Mystery Door is not specifically love but pathos. Pathos connects the concepts of suffering, disease, and feeling in a conceptual triad. Pathos commonly refers to the personal statement the artist makes when creating a work; in this way, Jo's suffering over the death of her mother is deeply connected to the creation of the story and Harry's losses in a powerful triad. She IS the Ouroboros!
Intimately connected to Pathos is Empathy: the projection of one's own personality into the personality of another in order to understand him better.
This would explain why Lily's charm rebounded on Voldemort. At the moment of her death, Harry is filled to overflowing with her loving sacrifice. When Voldemort strikes Harry with his curse, Harry is a cup already full, just as he fills himself up with the grieving over the loss of Sirius, and Voldemort cannot inhabit Harry's being. This is why Sirius had to die====his death is linked to understanding Lily's death, and Harry's subsequent ability to withstand Voldemort's onslaught.
This also explains why Rowling has chosen eye color as a secondary element to the deeper meaning of Pathos. The real point is not in the symbolic colors----but the characters as Mirrors-----Harry is a crystal Mirror of Purity and Compassion at the moment Voldemort strikes him, and Voldemort's curse is reflected, some powers transferred.
Harry's overflowing compassion could be the reason Voldemort is not completely extinguished, but I think not---I think Voldie has fragmented and compartmentalized his soul to survive. The Codswallop/Eau de Voldie theory.
Understanding the power of Pathos is why Dumbledore encourages Harry to embrace his suffering and grief after the loss of Sirius.
Book Six will be a progression of understanding through Pathos.
Thoughts? I know it doesn't add up to forty-two, but, what the hey...... ;-) Math obviously isn't my strong point.....
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Elanor - Jan 8, 2005 11:12 pm (#958 of 1121)
That is very interesting Hollywand! Here again, we find the mirror image. I always thought that a way for Harry to vanquish Voldemort would be to show him - reflect him - his own inner emptiness, in a way, to be "a mirror" Voldemort wouldn't stand.
Snape's birthday! I like the Janus connection very much Nathan, great work! Now, that becomes interesting because Capricorn is bound to Saturn and, of course lead and to the colour black. Saturn is the melancholy planet, bound to ideas of sullenness, old men, orphans, heirs, deep researches, perfect memory, dungeons (yes!), great loneliness but also inclination for works that demand painstaking attention to detail, patience. It is bound to destruction but also to rebirth.
Lead can be turned into gold thanks to the Philosopher's stone! In other words, Snape can be redeemed because of Harry.
Now the numbers are interesting as well: 9 is the essence of the 3, the perfect number, and 1 the unity of the macrocosm and the microcosm. 9+1= 10, the ouroboros number again.
So, Snape's birthday could well confirm that there are redemptive qualities in him.
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Archangel - Jan 9, 2005 2:06 am (#959 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! Interesting thoughts on mirrors and pathos. Hopefully, HBP will contain the whole Godric's Hollow attack so we'd really know what happened. I'm looking forward to reading Lily-Voldemort exchanges. Hope Lily has some great lines a la McG in OOP!
Nathan, the Janus-Snape connection is wonderful. Great job in spotting that one.
Elanor, you beat me to the punch! When I first saw that Snape's birthday is January 9, I gasped because I saw the numbers 10 and 1 flashing before my eyes!!! Your associations are also right on the spot.
I also think that the number 1 could be another way of describing Snape's character. He is a loner, we don't see him being friendly with his students and fellow teachers. He stands alone in his dangerous mission in the upcoming war -- is he working for Voldemort or for the Order -- either way, if he is uncovered, he faces the possibility of losing his life. He is pretty much on his own. He also places importance in rankings and rewards (Order of Merit anyone?) in his desire to be recognized -- to be #1. He resented James and Sirius during their school days because they were better than him in academics and athletics, among other things.
My apprehension about the number 10, the Ouroborus and Snape is that he might be working for Voldemort all along just like everyone suspected. This might just be something that is uncovered in the remaining books -- from Voldemort, to Voldemort. I kept thinking about 24's first season wherein my friends and I had suspicions that Nina was the traitor but also kept thinking that "Nah! She couldn't be" and just got floored when it turns out she is the traitor in the end. I worry too since "1" could also mean "I'm putting myself first".
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Archangel - Jan 9, 2005 5:51 am (#960 of 1121)
I followed the link that Nathan provided in his Snape-Janus post and went on to read what it says about ASH, VINE, and HOLLY and I was shocked with what I read.
VINE: (Hermione)
Zodiac: Libra (Sign of justice, Hermione's cause about house-elves and equal treatment, Rita Skeeter in GoF and OoP)
Celtic Symbol: The White Swan (Cho's patronus is a swan; is it possible that Cho's wand wood is vine as well and this is JKR's way of giving Hermione and Cho a common thing? Or perhaps this is an attribute to Hermione's transformation in GoF during the Yule Ball -- ugly duckling to a swan?)
Gods: Kronos ("chronos" is the Greek word for Time, and if I'm not mistaken this god is in charge of controlling Time. Hermione had a time-turner. She was the one who recognized the Time Room in MoM); Dionysus (god of wine; The wine of life? Vine is associated with rebirth as well)
Planet: Venus (in alchemy, this is associated to Copper. Goddess of Love)
Tarot: The Heirophant (Again, if I'm not mistaken, a heirophant is somewhat of a scholar -- interprets secret knowledge, keeps official learning and all that. Hermione studies runes and arithmancy which is all about symbols and clues. She knows everything or at least tries to.)
Also interesting the symbol for Vine looks like a slanted cross. Is wonky the same as slanted? If it is, Ron mentioned something about wonky cross in Divination and that it stands for suffering/hardship. Hermione's in for a ride in Book 6 me thinks...
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ASH: (Ron/Cedric)
Based on the zodiac, planet, gods, etc. associated to this wood, I'm inclined to think that the Ash remark in JKR's site is um... a diversion (the right word escapes me). The associations are all pointing to the element of water, which Ron is not associated with. The tree is also associated a lot to the underworld. Ron hasn't had any dealings with the underworld that I know of.
However, the Tarot association of this wood, though, made me pause. It is associated to the "Hanged Man" which stands for sacrifice and the chess play in PS/SS immediately comes to mind.
The more I think about Cedric's actions in GoF made me think that he too made sacrifices. He doesn't brag about the win over Gryffindor even though others do. He could have done what Harry asked and just claimed the championship by his lonesome but he didn't. Cedric was also the first contact that Harry's had with the "underworld" or the dead when Cedric's echo appeared during the graveyard fight. Cedric was doomed in GoF and JKR has given the clue as early as in the Weighing of the Wands chapter and nobody picked up on it!
"The Hanged Man is one of the most mysterious cards in the tarot deck. It is simple, but complex. It attracts, but also disturbs. It contradicts itself in countless ways. The Hanged Man is unsettling because it symbolizes the action of paradox in our lives. A paradox is something that appears contradictory, and yet is true. The Hanged Man presents to us certain truths, but they are hidden in their opposites."
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HOLLY: (Harry)
"Magickal (sic) Associations: Protection, prophecy... This tree has a powerful link to the spirit world. A symbol of the points between life, death, and rebirth, on both the physical and emotional planes. ...
Key Word: Balance "
O...K... Enough said.
The tarot association is the Emperor which is a leadership card. It is closely associated to being a protector and a defender of others. Harry has these traits and then some. Interestingly enough, this card is reinforced by the Heirophant card (Hermione's) because they are both seen as being related to rules, authority, etc. Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why Hermione assumed that Harry would be made a prefect during their 5th year. He has that natural ability to lead.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 9, 2005 12:17 pm (#961 of 1121)
Archangel,
Here is some additional information on vine that is contained in MorganLaFey's work Sacred Trees, Oghams and Celtic Symbolism
The Vine is the symbol of sensuality and emotions. A hardy, long lived plant. It's symbol, the White Swan represents the radiant divinity of the Gods who are said to go to their underground forts during the Autumn Equinox. The White Swan is also associated with the White Ghost or the White Phantom - Gwenhwyvar. To the Celts, the Autumn Equinox is a time when the light will eventually give up its hold to the darkness, but for a brief moment all is in balance. The light and the dark hold equal positions. To the Celtic mind it represents the balance of the mundane and the supernatural; the mortal and the immortal.
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The association with Gwenhwyvar is most interesting and could indicate a secondary association with the Empress. Also, Morgan LaFey's work illustrates the close connection between the Birch and the Elder. The symbolism of which reminds me of an arch or doorway leading from one year to the next.
According to her work the assignment of a mahogany wand to James Potter could possibly indicate a birthdate between March 18th and April 14th. While, the assignment of a wand made of willow to Lily could possibly indicate a birthdate between April 15th and May 12th.
This other link also has some additional information about trees sacred to the Celts.
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Elanor - Jan 9, 2005 12:39 pm (#962 of 1121)
LOL Archangel! Yes, it was the first thing I thought as well when I saw Snape's birthday on Jo's site: the number 10 as plain as his hooked nose on his face!
I can't help but think Snape's birthday is very encouraging for his behaviour in the books to come and a clue to his redemption, but I understand what worries you.
In alchemy, the 1, the unity, is THE principle. "Hen ta penta", "one, the whole". The one means union, harmony, conjunction of the opposites. It is a very positive number so I think it augurs well Snape's future, though we don't know if he will survive the redemption process...
Great work about the trees meaning! I'd just want to say that Hermione is a Virgo (born on September the 19th) and not a Libra but the connection with Venus is really great because it is a reference we often find. I also love the connection between ash and the Hanged Man we keep finding as well. Hmm...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm (#963 of 1121)
In his treatise on Sacred Trees entitled In Worship of Trees George Knowles describes the willow tree in the following manner.
The Willow tree (Salix alba) has long had associations with Wicca/Witchcraft and figures in the folklore and mythology of many cultures. The botanical name of the Willow 'Salix' comes from the Celtic word 'sal' - meaning near, and “lis” - meaning water. Because the Willow grows rapidly and has deep tough roots, they are widely planted to check soil erosion particularly on the banks of rivers and streams. It also flourishes in the moist ground found in many temperate regions throughout the world. As the Alder tree is known as the 'King of the Waters' so the Willow became known as its 'Queen'.
This interesting because one of the scenes between James and Lily that we as readers have been privy to thus far occurred near the Lake. I wonder how could this close association to water relate to James and Lily? Also, the reference to the Alder and Willow as the King and Queen of Water possibly allude to an assocciaton with the Emperor/Hierophant for James and the Empress/High Priestess for Lily.
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Elanor - Jan 10, 2005 1:07 pm (#964 of 1121)
Great catch Nathan because this is another reference to add to our "James and Lily / King and Queen" alchemical symbolism! Don't you think so?
These are some more thoughts about the chapter 8 - The Potions Master
- Quirrel's class "smelled strongly of garlic". If we look at the alchemical connections about plants, it is funny to notice that garlic is connected both to Mercury and Mars.
- "a funny smell hung around the turban" of Quirrel. The twins say that it smells of garlic as well, but I wonder if it could not be another reference to the nigredo process because the beginning of the work is meant to emit a real stench. This smell remains till the albedo process: the stone, become pure, smells good then, before stinking again at the beginning of the rubedo process till the stone is achieved and has a sweet smell again. Smells are something we didn't really notice till now, it could be another thing to pay attention to in the reread.
- Snape's eyes are black "They were very cold and empty and made you think of dark tunnels". The eyes of a superb Occlumens, no doubt about that and other references to nigredo (dark, tunnels).
- I've searched about the ingredients Snape asks Harry about in this lesson and that is fascinating.
* "the Draught of Living Death", made with powdered root of Asphodel and an infusion of wormwood. Asphodel is connected to Saturn and was meant to grow on meadows of the underworld for the dead. It was meant to cure some poisons and to make evil spirits flee. It is a liliaceous plant, as are lily, moly (the magic plant we talked about) and... garlic! Wormwood is Artemis' plant and is connected to Venus and Mars. It was also an ingredient for absinth liquor, the one romantic poets used to drink for reaching "artificial heavens", the one that drove them crazy as well and made them die early. Explosive mixture if there is one!
* a bezoar, used against poisons.
* monkhood and wolfsbane, also called aconite". This a very powerful poison as well.
So, we have a terrible poison, a powerful sleeping potion, the appearance of death, and a counter poison. Death as the 13th card of the major arcana, the nigredo again, the symbolical death that makes someone ascend, the precondition for the rebirth, the counter poison. Does it make sense?
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Hollywand - Jan 10, 2005 3:15 pm (#965 of 1121)
Great research Elanor! I wondered about the "smell" analogy when reading the books. Now that you point this out---Rowling seems to offer a hidden metaphor regarding the traitor in each book, if the reader can decipher the code:
---characters who appear pale are often being influenced by Voldemort
----with Quirrel, it was the garlic smell, and the turban dreams.
-----with Scabbers, it was the Sneakoscope, and Crookshanks.
Maybe in Book Six I will be able to crack the code as I am reading rather than in hindsight.....one can always dream......
On Severus' dark tunnel eyes----tunnels refering to the Chamber of Secrets, and the underground dwellings of snakes.......
Elanor and I were discussing the Pathos/Compassion connection between Harry and Snape as a metaphor. Harry's greatest gift may be his compassion, and Severus, as an Occlumens, seems to have a similar gift, only the umbra side to Harry's bright side---that is, a connection between pain, suffering and feeling bringing the gift of compassion, projection of one's self into the personality of another person.
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Elanor - Jan 11, 2005 1:24 pm (#966 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand! I do agree about the traitor and now that I think about it, I wonder if garlic could not be a way for Quirrel to try to protect himself from Voldemort's possession.
Since liliaceous plants share the property of making evil spirits flee or protecting people against magic (as moly and asphodel do), I wonder if it could not be a vainly way for what remained of Quirrel's personality to fight Voldemort, as for Crouch fighting the Imperius curse somehow. Only the twins say that Quirrel's turban smelt of garlic as well but I wonder if Quirrel's garlic and Voldemort's stench are not two different things that mix. Yuk!
I love the pathos/compassion connection you made. As we said on the new DADA thread, this is the mirror image again. In that perspective, Snape can be seen as "the mirror" of Harry, his image in the dark. When Harry's feelings are turned towards the others, Snape's are turned in on himself. This is another couple of opposites too. The more we make progress in the story, the more we realize what Snape and Harry have in common, which they find out as well, though reluctantly.
Couples of opposites are meant to make a conjunction in alchemy, in other words the two sides of the mirror have to join so that something positive would come out of it. It will be hard for both of them but a lot of things could depend on their ability to work together or not.
Dark tunnels and the Chamber of secrets... That is a great analogy too! Those eyes keep a lot of secrets indeed. Harry opened the chamber's door and was able to open Snape's eyes' door too once, he may do that again.
BTW, in both cases, Voldemort's "gift" helped opening those doors (parseltongue and legilimency skills from the Dark Lords?). And Harry kept dreaming of corridors and doors in OotP under Voldemort's influence. Hmm, there is certainly more about that...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 12, 2005 12:20 pm (#967 of 1121)
Elanor I am more inclined to view James and Lily as the Hierophant and High Priestess figures because of their non secular natures. gJ.K. Rowling has said that Harry is not the HBP whuch tend to lend itself to the non secular coupling, Unless, Godric Gryffindor is the HBP and Harry is his descendant then then it is possible that James and Lily could be the Emperor/Empress coupling.
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Elanor - Jan 12, 2005 1:33 pm (#968 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! Actually, I think both images can work. The Empress represents reason and discernment and the Emperor is a mediator, he executes divines plans about men and the universe. I like the last one very much because as Prongs, the patronus, James is indeed a mediator between Harry and what threatens him. This is a great catch!
But I think the image of the king and the queen can work too. These are not real king and queen, but alchemical symbols of a couple of opposites as are the Sun and the Moon, that is to say symbols of Sulfur and Mercury. They have to make a conjunction, which is a complex thing because in a conjunction, each element remains as it is but "inside" something higher.
Symbolicaly, from the conjunction of the king and the queen, of the Sun and the Moon, a child is born, symbolizing the philosophical gold. Which is a nice image of Harry I think. His parents can be seen in him as two separate elements (he looks like his father, has his mother's eyes...) but their "conjunction" created something higher, Harry, meant to save the Wizarding World from Voldemort and act as a living Philosopher's stone symbolicaly. Does it make sense? I feel I express myself badly, I'm sorry! BTW, to be honest, I'm not sure I could write it better in French anyway, LOL!
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Elanor - Jan 12, 2005 2:31 pm (#969 of 1121)
Oops! Too late for editing! After writing the previous post, I have searched a little more about the Hierophant and the High Priestess cards and this is interesting because it is very much the same symbol.
The High Priestess is also the Moon card, and the Moon is the Queen in alchemy!
The Hierophant is very close to the Emperor because he is a mediator as well and this powerful image fits well with James.
I love this thread!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 12, 2005 4:01 pm (#970 of 1121)
Elanor, the four figures of the High Priestess(Popess), Emperor Empress, and Hierophant(Pope) are exmplified by the Potters and Longbottoms. The nature of the ptophecy tends to lend itself to this idea.
I wonder whether Hagrid holds more clues to the septology than it might at first appear because, his title of Keeper of Keys and Grounds interests me especially since the word key can ghave many meanings.
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Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 10:12 pm (#971 of 1121)
There is something about evil that is connected with bad smells. The troll smelled terrible. Quirrell's turban smells bad. The twins say it is full of garlic ... but do we know for certain that this is true? Could it just have been a foul smell associated with having Voldemort inhabiting the back of his head?
If Quirrel did indeed stuff his turban full of garlic, could it have been to ward off a Vampire ... like Snape, for example? (Yes, I want to believe Snape is a bat and a Vampire. LOL)
Solitaire
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Elanor - Jan 13, 2005 12:50 pm (#972 of 1121)
Solitaire, about Quirrel's turban's smell, that was exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it better than I did! We should definitely pay attention to smells, bad or good, in the books!
About Snape, well I rather see him as a crow but a bat could fit, though I'm not convinced he is a vampire (poor boy, he has enough on his plate like that! ). But bats make me think to the saying "as blind as a bat" and Snape is nearsighted in a lot of ways: about the marauders, about Harry, about his own feelings. This is another connection with Harry BTW: Harry is physically nearsighted, but Snape is emotionally nearsighted.
Nathan, I like your remarks very much! Yes, Hagrid may hold other keys to Harry's future...
I have continued my reread of PS, this is what I noticed about the Chapter 9 - The Midnight Duel
- The "fool" is mentioned twice. First Harry says : "Just what I always wanted. To make a fool of myself on a broomstick in front of Malfoy" and Ron answers "You don't know you'll make a fool of yourself"
The Fool, is the first and the last card of the major arcana. He is the "zero", the symbol of the evolution, the one who seeks the truth. His madness is his superior wisdom. Interesting to find the fool connected with Harry since, during his first flying lesson, he will discover a truth about himself, that he is "a natural" on a broom.
- Neville's Remembrall: it is full of white smoke which turns red when you have forgotten something. From white to red, as in the alchemical process. I love that one!
- The Midnight Duel title: midnight: 12 and duel: 2 of them. The same numbers again.
- About Harry's flying skills, these sentences rang a bell: "Harry knew, somehow, what to do" and "The boy is a natural". Well, we know that James was good on a broom but I am becoming suspicious when I read that Harry knows how to do something like this because it reminds me of Voldemort's skills like Parsetongue. I hope that flying is a skill inherited from his father, but what if Voldemort's abilities had reinforced those natural skills? After all, except for the Dark Arts, we know very little thing about him. If one day, in the next books, there was more about this, it would have been under our noses from the start, as Peter was (hence the Fool mention?).
- There are other little things that rang some bells somehow, though I don't know if they are important or not but they may need further thoughts (it was a hard day at school and my brain works too slowly tonight):
*Malfoy has an "eagle owl", Neville a "barn owl".
*Mme Hooch has "yellow eyes like a hawk"
*The new password "pig snout"
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 13, 2005 5:29 pm (#973 of 1121)
There is an an interest point about the midnight duel. In the book it involves four Gryffndor's the trio plus Neville who joined them in there expidition because he had fogotten the passwords and the Fat Lady would not admit him.
They are supposed to face three Slytherin's Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle for a total of 7 participants.
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Hollywand - Jan 13, 2005 5:50 pm (#974 of 1121)
Elanor, I thought your discussion of "Mors Mordre" on another thread was quite interesting since it repeats the notion of biting and Voldemort's ability to summon the death eaters. He summons them directly after he is reincarnated, and just before he spins Peter's "silvery like the Moonlight" hand. This seems a key alchemical process being described, one, two three. Snake bites his tail? The sleeping dragon awakens?
Could Morsmordre and Felix Felicis have a connection? Seems like some interesting sound bites going on there.
I am thrilled at yours and Solitaire's contributions that Durmstrang is located by the water, could signify an approaching psychological storm, and could be near Norway and Sweden, where there are some serious dragons to contend with, and encounter. I noticed that Harry develops a definite affection for dragons after his trial in the Triwizard Tournament---from fear to affection. It's unclear if his Parsel tounge skills extend to dragons, but it's certainly implied in the passage. He convinces the dragon to rise into the air with him---seems like a key alchemical metaphor.
I also want to register somewhere, how sad and shocked I was today by seeing Prince Harry Saxe-Coburg Windsor in a Nazi uniform today on the news. I felt wounded in my heart. To think what the Nazis cost everyone in Europe, the loss of life, the suffering. It was so depressing, even for an adolescent prank. It also made me think how timeless Rowling's parable about royalty and blood lineage is for all of us; and how little humans learn from their mistakes......
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 13, 2005 7:52 pm (#975 of 1121)
There is detail I remembered about Ollivander's eyes. They were described in Harry's visit to Ollivander's as shining like bright moons.
Solitaire, that is interesting I hadn't noticed that before.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 976 to 1000)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:14 am
Archangel - Jan 14, 2005 12:58 am (#976 of 1121)
Nathan, I'm not sure where I read it but there were some posts suggesting that Ollivander could be blind -- that might explain the moon comment. The moon's just white right?
Snape's "blindness"... perhaps his abnormaly large hooked nose is to blame.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 14, 2005 12:50 pm (#977 of 1121)
Archangel, that idea has potential, because in certain instances people develop their other senses and refine their mental processes to compensate for the loss of a sense. Could Mr. Ollivander be held to be a Tiresias like figure.
Along the same line of thought Flich's name Argus reminds me of the hundred eyed being that was assigned to guard Io. He was later killed by Hermes.
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Elanor - Jan 14, 2005 1:05 pm (#978 of 1121)
Great catch about the midnight duel Nathan!
About Mr Ollivander being blind, I'm not convinced. There is something funny with his eyes, that is certain, but he seems to see well enough for taking measures and say that Harry has his mother's eyes. The mention of moon is interesting because conventional wisdom always said that the Moon acts upon events on Earth, and Ollivander's work had and will have some influence on the Wizarding World.
In alchemy, the moon is connected to silver and Ollivander's eyes are described as silvery as well. It is part of the couple of opposites Sun/Moon, King/Queen, from which light, the philosophical gold, has to come at the end of the work. So it might be a clue that light will come from his work, and that the wands he made are a major clue in the story.
If this meaning of "silvery" is correct, then it could be another clue that Peter's "silvery like the Moonlight" hand you just mentioned Hollywand will become useful to Harry in the future. So, the snake may indeed bite his own tail here...
I'm happy you liked the "mors mordre" discussion Hollywand! The Death Mark in the sky, the Death Mark on the DEs' arms, and this incantation whose meanings are numerous... If we see it as "mors" (the latin word) and mordre (the French word for "to bite") there is already several meanings since mors means "death" but also "corpse", "which gives death", "destruction" and "the end". So it means both "to bite death" -to defy death as Voldemort did?- (hence the Death Eater name) but also "to bite and give death".
On a side note, I have always thought that the fact that this mark was a tattoo was interesting because it reminds of old warriors initiations rites. It seems to be painful only to be touched by Voldemort and I always assumed that receiving this tattoo had to be very painful as well (as a rite has to be). I'm sure that Bella didn't move an eyelash then, and neither did Snape, but Peter was certainly a different story...
I do agree about the dragons and water connection! The metaphor of the dragon rising into the air is great. Should Harry be astride one once and the symbol will be complete: it is the symbol of the fusion of the alchemist and his work.
Great work Captain! And take heart, as long as some people remember and learn from the past, there is hope, and Jo tells us that too!
PS: Nathan, thanks for the SPEW moment with the Tiresias image, I couldn't help picturing Mr Ollivander doomed to be a woman for 7 years...
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Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 1:57 pm (#979 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, thanks for your kind and encouraging words. Congratulations on going to Accio, I am so happy for you and I hope you have a fantastic time!
Reading your comments on Morsmordre , the bite of death, yes, right, snakes kill by biting their victims. Why didn't I see this before. Right. Snakes are vilified because humans are horrified that they swallow their victims whole.
Right, Right. I am so grateful for this discussion thread, as I don't think I would even scratch the meaning's surface without all of these wonderful contributions.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 14, 2005 6:11 pm (#980 of 1121)
Elanor it would make life interesting for him indeed. But, I digress The idea has potential as a possible alchemical signifigance because it demonstrates the complimentary nature between male and female and the close relationship between Hermes and Aphrodite.
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Elanor - Jan 15, 2005 9:34 am (#981 of 1121)
I am so grateful for this discussion thread, as I don't think I would even scratch the meaning's surface without all of these wonderful contributions. May I borrow your words Hollywand? This is exactly what I think every day when I come here! Actually, it was your comment here about the bite of the snake that made me think to the snake charmer about Lily's behaviour this famous night as you posted on "the triumphant glint" thread (great idea BTW!).
Nathan, I agree that the Tiresias figure has some interesting possibilities because he is an androgynous symbol (sulfur and mercury united in the philosopher's stone). Tiresias is often seen as the greatest seer of Greece. There are several stories about how and why he became blind but they have one thing in common: it is the loss of his eyes that gave him the clairvoyance gift.
But it reminds me more of Moody than of Ollivander. The loss of one of his eyes earnt Moody a more powerful sight. On another hand, Sybill wears enormous glasses and when she makes her prophecy in PoA it is said "her eyes started to roll" (p.238), so she is blind too then.
I have continued my reread, this is for the chapter 10 - Hallowe'en
Harry's first training session is at 7 p.m., the magic number again.
Harry's broom is a nimbus 2000. Nimbus means cloud in Latin. It is also a word that means halo. Usually golden, this nimbus symbolizes the aura of someone with a powerful personality (from kings to gods...). It has a mahogany handle (the same wood as James' wand) and the name "nimbus" is written in gold. So his broom connects Harry to his father and may reinforce the fact that he is stronger on a broom.
The Quidditch Pitch has 3 golden poles at either end of it. 3 poles but one goal in fact, 3 = 1, very alchemical, isn't it?
I won't say again what we already said about the alchemical references of the Quidditch game but just mention again the 7 players, 4 balls (red, black and silver and gold) and the image of the quest of the gold.
On Hallowe'en feast, DD's makes "several purple firecrackers" with his wand, again he is connected with purple.
The Troll "foul stench". If we see stench as an expression of the beginning of the nigredo process this is very interesting IMO because his appearance unites the trio that will be able to start to work together from now on.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 15, 2005 10:03 pm (#982 of 1121)
Elanor, your commentary on Lily's ability to cast charms reminds me of the Lay of Luthien.
Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion, of how the mortal Beren fell in love with the Elven princess Luthien. To prove himself worthy Luthien's father Thingol commanded Beren from the Iron Crown of Morgoth one of the Silmarils. Luthien accompanied him on his quest. When they confronted Morgoth, Luthien cast a charm on Morgoth that enabled Beren to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.
I wonder if Lily's ability to cast charms was a part of what enabled Lily and James to thrice defy Voldemort.
The scene when the teachers arrive after the troll is knocked out raises a point namely that McGonagall is the first to arrive on the scene followed closely by Snape and Quirrell putting 3 teachers on the scene.
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 12:29 am (#983 of 1121)
Elanor, I was so pleased to read your observation that Nimbus can also be a cloud, I haven't noticed that before. Since clouds in the HP series seem to symbolize concealment and protection for Harry, I think that you've made a great connection.
I have a few observations to add regarding Harry's brooms. The connection to James' wand through the mahogany is important, I think, as it probably indicates additional protection for Harry. The mahogany wood was believed to provide a home with protection from lightning when planted outside the threshold.
We all know that the Nimbus was destroyed in a highly symbolic Quidditch match. It was then replaced by the Firebolt. I think that it may be meaningful that he went from a broom that symbolizes protection from bolts of lightning to a broom that epitomizes bolts of FIRE. It's also interesting that the Firebolt was made out of ash. Ash was believed to provide protection from drowning, and brings to mind the phoenix rising from the ASHes. I think that the destruction of one broom followed by the replacement of a broom made of ash may indicate the eventual destruction of Harry's wand and it's replacement (rising from the ashes). Harry was afraid that his wand would not survive continued contact with Voldemorts in the Priori Incantatem chapter, and I forsee a possible destruction of the wand when Harry defeats Voldemort at the end.
There are so many great discussions on this thread. Thank you all!
Barbie
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 10:35 am (#984 of 1121)
A lot of great ideas put forward by the group! It's marvelous the way a lot of the metaphors are related---I think we are on to a wonderful underlying iconography in the series.
The comments about Harry's two brooms, and the significance of oak to ash are wonderful. I can't wait for Book Six to see if more puzzle pieces can be linked with Alchemy.
I had these insights on the Potions Puzzle from the Philosopher's Stone just now, and I think some of the insights are new from what we have already pointed out about this cypher:
The puzzle belongs to Severus, the Potions Master, the most enigmatic of the professors, the one who seems to be evil, but is transformational. He is the last barrier between Voldemort, the Mirror of Erised, Harry and Dumbledore.
He gives the pair seven potions, four clues---a reference to the seven alchemical process uniting the four houses.
Two of the potions are "twins once you taste them, though different at first sight" (I think this is a reference to Harry and Hermoine as a hermaphroditic pair, on the quest)
One will send you forward, the other will send you back, danger lies before you, and safety lies behind. (Refers to what actually happens to them as they split and walk into the flames)
Choose, or remain here forever. (Choices make us who we are, and the pair make sacrificial choices for the greater good)
three of us are killers, standing in a line: (A triad of evil wizards would be: Voldemort, Bella and Lucius) Wormtail is pivotal.
Two of us contain nettle wine: ( a reference to the aquae vitae, to twins, to a hermaphroditic pair, to putrefaction of inedible elements to alcohol).
Hermione is the tranformational intellectual element that solves Severus' trial, so she overcomes his barrier, allowing Harry, the male half of the pair, to progress forward to attain the stone.
OK, I'm done, sorry for the long post. It's great to have a spot to write down these lunatic ravings. I mean Lunatic in a good way. ;-)
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 10:54 am (#985 of 1121)
Hollywand: Good points regarding the potions. I liked this one especially...
"Choose, or remain here forever. (Choices make us who we are, and the pair make sacrificial choices for the greater good)"
What's neat about that one is that I think that it shows Severus' choice regarding the Marauders. He can choose to "get over" his past so that he could get on with his life, but he has chosen instead to stay angry and bitter. In this way, he will remain forever the immature and angry youth of the past. Lupin has suffered injustice, but has moved on with his life. Severus has suffered abuse, but has chosen to hate instead. His choice has forced him to remain where he was. The anger that Severus feels will only continue to destroy him because he chooses to continue fanning the flame of his hatred.
Barbie
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 11:50 am (#986 of 1121)
Your reasoning is wonderful, Phoenix Song, (what a great screen name!) and I would like to take the opportunity to point out that Vitriol, or anger, was thought to be a key transformational process by the Alchemists. Anger is a sort of internal fire, and it is true that anger internalized and undigested is destructive rather than transformational. Here, you have hit on a key theme of the book: Harry must master his anger, he is infused with anger that is not his but Voldemort's, and Severus continually piques his anger. Harry makes Snape angry, by looking at earlier wounds that made Severus angry, and intrusion by Harry into Severus' past that shapes his present, and possibly his future.
Time exchange seems to be a salient theme---in the Occlumency lesson, Harry and Severus exchange temporal pain. Harry is paradoxically enriched by learning Severus' past---we understand that Harry is compassionate beyond his father's abilities, and Harry experiences some loss in the idealization of his father.
Order of the Phoenix ends on a vitriolic note----Harry hates Severus, Severus hates Sirius and Harry, Delores is the embodiment of institutional vitriol, Harry even hates Dumbledore. It is not until he gazes out at the Black Lake, on the Hogwarts grounds, and thinks of his earlier past with Sirius Black, that the psychological waters of the Black Lake begin to heal him. This is the Nigredo, the death and transformational process. I would argue that black is repeated much too much for this to be purely coincidental on Rowling's part, and she does say that this series owes its dark side to the untimely death of her mother.
Elanor, dear, I have a question for you if you please: I seem to have missed one of the Quidditch balls you mentioned earlier---I know there is the Black Bludger (Nigredo) the Golden Snitch (Albedo) and the Red Quaffle (Rubeo) ----I have missed the silver ball, can't believe it---can you please let me know where to find it? Thanks so much!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2005 11:53 am (#987 of 1121)
Hollywand the wings of the snitch are silver in color.
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 12:24 pm (#988 of 1121)
Wow! Great work everybody!
Barbie, I loved the ash/ashes connections, that is such a powerful image! I agree about what you wrote about Snape as well. He will have to walk into the flames of his past if he wants to move on, and this flames are most likely to burn...
Hollywand, you're right, this scene is so important and what you found is wonderful. The hermaphroditic pair is a great clue to notice, as are the references to alcohol! Bravo!
I continued my reread, this is for the chapter 11 - Quidditch
- Another reference to metals: "the lake like chilled steel". Steel is bound to the Aries sign, sign of fire, whose planet is Mars (iron). So, this 11th chapter begins with a martial reference, appropriate for the first Gryffindor/Slytherin match we see.
- there are "700 ways of committing a Quidditch foul", the number 7 again.
- "all happened during a World cup match in 1473". I find this date interesting, because 1473 is exactly 20 years after the end of the Hundred Year's War, and 2 years before the last peace treaty of the war was signed. It is also the War of the Roses period, just after Edward IV's crowning. I guess the war was not entirely forgotten then...
- Snape limps, hence the symbolism of the one who limps we already mentioned: the encounter with gods or the supernatural, or the ones who know the arts of fire are marked. We'll see that Snape is marked in many ways afterwards, this mark is the first one. I wonder if he has a scar from that encounter with Fluffy, the 3 headed dog...
- The match happened during the 11th month, at 11 o'clock and is related in the 11th chapter... We should have known something wrong was to happen...
- Gryffindors wear "scarlet" robes (the colour of blood) and Slytherins green ones.
- "Flint flying like an eagle up there" says Lee Jordan. It reminded me of the alchemical image of the fight between the eagles and the lion, during the alchemical process we already mentioned.
EDIT: You've been busy when I was writting! I do agree about the meaning of anger and vitriol! The more because VITRIOL are initials in fact, standing for "visita interiora terrae, rectificando invenies occultum lapidem" ("investigate the inside of the earth and by correcting, you will find the hidden stone"). Sometimes, the words "veram medicinam" (the true medicine) are added to the sentence. That is searching inside themselves that Harry, and Snape, will find their "stone", that is to say what will heal them.
About silver, Nathan is right, the golden snitch is described first like this: "It was bright gold and had little fluttering silver wings".
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 1:52 pm (#989 of 1121)
Thank you Hollywand! I'm glad that you like my screen name. Even before I began to really "study" the series, I had such a strong feeling that Phoenix Song would be critical in the eventual outcome of the series. The more that I study the books, the more certain that I am that it's integral.
I've recently found some passages that seem to give clues about Phoenix song and how it relates to the Alchemy process. Round Pink Spider recently came forth with some information that showed that in order to bring about harmony in the four houses/four elements again, Harry would have to develop a balance between his fire element as a Gryffindor and the water element of Slytherin house. The article that she found states that there would need to be a harmonia between the two found in the air element. This seemed to indicate that the harmonia would be found through the introduction of Phoenix Song.
It seems as if this was illustrated in the graveyard scene in GoF when the wand of Voldemort (water/Slytherin) was united with the wand of Harry (flame/Gryffindor) and the connection of the two brought forth Phoenix song (air element connected to music/harmony). The two duelists were picked up through the air, and were carried to a clear area of the graveyard and encased in a glowing dome of music that struck fear in Voldemort and sent courage to the heart of Harry. Another quite interesting thing about Phoenix song is that it is described as being an unearthly sound, which further shows that it is an Air element.
I found a passage this week that illustrates the transformational process that Harry will need to undergo to bring balance:
"He had the horrible impression that he was slowly turning into a kind of aerial that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemorts mood... (OOP, 25/554)
The significant part for me is that Harry can sense that he is turning/changing into an aerial (which would describe an AIR element) that was in tune (which is a musical symbolism indicating Phoenix song and balance) with Voldemort. I think that this passage illustrates Harry's transformation through the alchemical process using the air and music (Phoenix song). Any thoughts?
Barbie
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 1:53 pm (#990 of 1121)
The last posts about brooms and the golden snitch reminded me that I had found something about the wing symbolism in alchemy that I forgot to post (I should do with a Remembrall sometimes...).
Traditionaly, wings represent spirituality and the ability for the mind to ascend. Hermes/Mercury has little wings to his heels that allow him to cross the sky and to jump over mountains.
In alchemy, wings are connected to everything that is volatil, as mercury. About those wings, I found this quote from Basile Valentin (the translation is mine, sorry if it is not very good), from the book "The 12 keys of Philosophy": "Mercury became so proud that he hardly recognized himself. He threw away his eagle wings, devoured his slippery tail of Dragon and provoked Mars to fight".
This is a symbolical tale illustrating the transformations mercury has to do during the alchemical process. It reminded me Harry in OotP in a way: his anger/pride led him to lose his "wings" (his broom) during the Quidditch match and then led him to provoke Bella first and Voldemort's anger afterwards in the MoM battle. What do you think?
Edit: great post Phoenix Song! Again, I was writting when you posted, LOL! I do agree that harmony, the balance, will be essential in the future books. I loved the "air" connection you made!
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 2:13 pm (#991 of 1121)
Great contributions, Phoenix Song and Elanor! I loved the passage about pride and Mercur, as a "dragon bites its tail"---Harry does make a mistake, several of them, due to his anger and overconfidence; both Severus and Dumbledore warn him, but alas, earwax. The Fool must head off the cliff and learn for himself. One reason why Albus does not interfere too much!
Phoenix Song, I hope you don't find these ideas disappointing, but I think Fawkes has been present in some form at every encounter between Voldemort and Harry. I think perhaps Harry's scar is a gift from Fawkes and not Voldemort. Dumbledore may have placed Fawkes as a guardian for Harry at the moment of the attack by Voldemort, Harry is "touched" by Fawkes in flames. This would explain the core Fawkes connection, and suggest that Voldemort clung to life by the connection with Fawkes' feather at the core of his wand. And the Holly wand with Fawkes feather chooses Harry. Fawkes loves Harry, and not Voldemort, and this will be Voldemort's undoing.
Regarding the "harmony"---I think you may find this in the conjuction of Harry and Hermione's names: Harmony. Hermione has been associated with the intellectual, Phlegmatic, water, female element. Harry is the Male, Sanguine, action element. Bringing these two forces together is Harmony.
Lots of howlers from shippers.
I am intrigued about the clues on Viktor and Durmstrang. Durmstrang and Viktor emerge from the center of the Black Lake, Viktor is the mysterious seeker that loves Hermione and pursues her, Viktor has pureblood wizard, dark and foreign origins. Viktor is duck footed, hooked nosed,he could be a sea eagle patronus. Viktor's hornbeam wand has a dragonheart string core, a reference to harmony, as does the Vine/Dragonheart of Hermione. Will he intervene as a love interest in the future books?
All the stir over Ron's "ash/willow" wand on Jo's website I think was a diversion from the clue that Hermione and Viktor share the same wand core.
I also could be headed for the Stoat Sandwich Cafe big time. l-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2005 9:17 pm (#992 of 1121)
Elanor your reference to Snape limping reminded me of Hephaestus
This excerpt is taken from the Encyclopedia Mythica
Known as the lame god, Hephaestus was born weak and crippled. Displeased by the sight of her son, Hera threw Hephaestus from Mount Olympus, and he fell for a whole day before landing in the sea. Nymphs rescued him and took him to Lemnos, where the people of the island cared for him. But other versions say Zeus threw him from Mount Olympus after Hephaestus had sided with his mother in a quarrel. This legend says that Hephaestus fell for nine days and nine nights, and he landed on Lemnos.
Snape is much like Hephaestus in that they are considered to be master craftsmen and their physical appearance and fraility causes them to be isolated
In Chapter 11 Hagrid tells the trio how he acquired Fluffy from a Greek man. This statement raises three points.
Point 1: Is Fluffy a descendant of Cerebrus?
In Greek mythology, the three-headed watchdog who guards the entrance to the lower world, the Hades. It is a child of the giant Typhon and Echidna, a monstrous creature herself, being half woman and half snake.
According to legend the spittle of Cerberus was fatal so much so that from its spittle sprang the aconite plant. The following website between Cerberus and Aconite: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Magic As Cerberus vehemently resisted Heracles, barking furiously, his saliva dripped on the ground, giving birth to a poisonous plant called aconite; thus named because it flourishes on bare rocks. It is also known as 'hecateis,' because Hecate was the first to use it. Medea tried to poison Theseus with it, and the Thessalian witches used it in preparing the ointment that enabled them to fly. The modern name for aconite is wolfsbane.
Point 2: If so then why wasn't Fluffy's drool fatal to Ron?
Point 3: Is Ron immune to poisons?
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 10:17 pm (#993 of 1121)
A quick post before I leave for school just to say I loved what you wrote Hollywand and Nathan.
Hollywand: Regarding the "harmony"---I think you may find this in the conjuction of Harry and Hermione's names: Harmony. Hermione has been associated with the intellectual, Phlegmatic, water, female element. Harry is the Male, Sanguine, action element. Bringing these two forces together is Harmony.This is the perfect summarize of what a conjunction is! 2 separate elements that become one (to act "as one man") but remain separate from the other one.
Nathan: great catch with Hephaestus! I know I have read something interesting about him somewhere, I will search tonight! I love the Fluffy/Cerberus connection!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 17, 2005 12:52 pm (#994 of 1121)
There is one similarity I forgot to mention in my previous post. It has long been postulated that Snape suffered from some form of abuse or neglect at the hands of his parents. If this proves to be accurate then it would be another similarity because, Hephaestus was neglected by his parents. Also, according to the various legends about Hephaestus, he was married to either Aphrodite or Athena.
A new question could any of the marauders or Snape be viewed as a Loki like figure?
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Elanor - Jan 17, 2005 2:15 pm (#995 of 1121)
About the one who limps, this is what I found :
- The one who limps symbol can be very ambivalent because it can mean
1) a failure to adjust to the earth on which one is walking, that is to say to the world around him. It is the case for Oedipe (how do you say in English, Oedipus?) who limps because his feet were pierced when he was a baby. It would fit with Snape as well, since he has real difficulties to adjust with the other people he lives with and seems to have those since he was a child.
2) the mark of a symbolical mutilation, the sacrifice one has to do for being able to learn from the gods (as for Hephaestus)
- This symbolical mutilation can be seen as a nigredo process because that initiation allows him to ascend to a higher level of knowledge.
- Hephaestus is a blacksmith and, as one, he is the master of fire (the telluric fire, he works inside volcanoes). He is also the master of metals and hence very respected though feared too and he lives outside the village. He is ugly but efficient.
I don't know much about Loki, except that he can be seen as the squirrel who was sowing discord on the Yggdrasil tree, between the eagle and the dragon that lived there (a wink to Quirrel?). He is a god of fire that can't be trusted for sure, so why not?
He is also often seen as an hawk and Mme Hooch has been described with hawk eyes very often. The fox was also his emblem for he was very cunning. Does it help?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 17, 2005 3:11 pm (#996 of 1121)
Elanor, the only problem I see with comparing Snape to Oedipus is the fact that the adoptive parents of Oedipus loved him very much. He fled from them because he belived the doom that the fates had in store for him would come true if he remained with them which, is why he fled.
Loki, is the trickster god of Norse mythology who brings about the the final civil war among the Norse gods called Ragnarok or (Gotterdammerung) that will occur at the ending of the world.
This excerpt is from the Encyclopedia Mythica [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Loki is one of the major deities in the Norse pantheon. He is a son of the giant Farbauti ("cruel striker") and the giantess Laufey. He is regarded as one of Aesir, but is on occasion their enemy. He is connected with fire and magic, and can assume many different shapes (horse, falcon, fly). He is crafty and malicious, but is also heroic: in that aspect he can be compared with the trickster from North American myths. The ambivalent god grows progressively more unpleasent, and is directly responsible for the death of Balder, the god of light...On the day of Ragnarok, Loki's chains will break and he will lead the giants into battle against the gods.
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Elanor - Jan 17, 2005 10:18 pm (#997 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! I think I expressed myself badly yesterday (sorry, it was rather late and my brain far too slow... ).
I didn't want to say that Snape could be compared to Oedipus, not at all, just that Oedipus story is a good example of the symbolism of the man who limps and that this symbolism (a failure to adjust to the earth on which one is walking, that is to say to the world around him) could apply to Snape too, but I do agree that Oedipus can't be compared to Snape. (is it better written like that?)
About the Loki figure, I will search if I find something in my books! have a great night/day everyone!
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Elanor - Jan 18, 2005 1:32 pm (#998 of 1121)
Nathan, I have not yet found other details about the Loki symbolism, I'll try again!
PS reread following episode, chapter 12 - The Mirror of Erised
- First, what strikes me is that that key symbol of the book, the Mirror of Erised, is the 12th chapter of the book. "12 keys to the philosophy", the 12th key is the mirror?
- Fred and George are "punished for bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirrell around, bouncing off the back of his turban". Okay, that one is just because I love it... On a second thought, "balls", "to follow around" : this could be a circle reference maybe.
- During Potions, Harry is measuring out "powdered spine of lion-fish", another lion reference.
- There are "twelve towering Christmas trees" in the Great Hall and Professor Flitwick "had golden bubbles blossoming out of his wand". Christmas trees are symbols of life because they don't lose their leaves during the winter, they are the promise of better days. 12 of them, golden bubbles: this reinforces the symbol in a subtle way.
- Harry's Christmas presents: Another reference to music: Hagrid gives Harry "a roughly cut wooden flute" as a Christmas present. Music / harmonia that Harry has to give back to the Wizarding World but the "instrument" (flute / Harry) is still rough and needs to be trained before that.
- Harry receives an emerald green jumper from Mrs Weasley, the color we see McGonagall wear, the "positive" green, connected to the Graal quest. This very night, Harry will begin his quest of his past.
- The Invisibility Cloak: is "silvery grey", "gleaming", "like water woven into material". Though Harry can't see himself in the mirror anymore while wearing it, this description of the cloak makes me think to a mirror again.
- "Percy nearly broke his teeth on a silver Sickle embedded in his slice" of pudding. If I remember well Agatha Christie's The adventure of the Christmas pudding", the one who founds the coin in the pudding is meant to become rich. A hint to Percy's ambition? But I thought it had to be a golden coin (am I correct?) so it is interesting that this coin is a silver one.
- The Mirror of Erised has "an ornate gold frame". As we already said, the mirror symbolizes the beginning of the work in alchemy because it is a reflection of nature. The mirror is meant "to show the invisible from the visible so that one can see what is hidden". I thought that this quote (some alchemists thought Hermes himself said) fits very well with the Mirror of Erised, don't you think so? It is also the symbol of the refection between the earth and the heavens, the body and the mind...
- Harry meets DD in front of the Mirror the third time he goes there.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 18, 2005 5:38 pm (#999 of 1121)
Elanor, it is interesting that you should mention that story because in the New Years pudding is hidden a red jewel specifically a Ruby (Red Corundum) which is the second hardest mineral on the Mohs Scale having a hardness of 9 out of 10. Only diamonds having a greater hardness.
Point 1: The flute reminds me of Orpheus one of only two living individuals to descend into Hades and successfully defeat Cerberus.
Point 2: In the Mirror of Erised the relatives of Harry's that are mentioned have green eyes and red hair.
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Hollywand - Jan 18, 2005 5:54 pm (#1000 of 1121)
And the Fourth time Harry encounters the Mirror of Erised, it is in conjunction with the Voldemort/Quirrel Janus. Harry's purity of heart allows him to cross Dumbledore's boundry, and the stone appears to him, out of the reach of Voldmort. Harry lies to Quirrel to defend the stone, and Voldemort knows this.
Elanor, what a great set of details! If you don't mind my riffing on some of the details, here goes:
The Invisibiltiy Cloak, is a hidden gift from James through Dumbledore---a connection with the future Patronus, silver stag, Time Turner exchange. The Cloak is a silvery rainment which renders the body invisible. The Mirror is a silvery gateway that renders desire visible.
Can the Silver Cloak, the Mirror, the Snitch and the Pensieve be connected? It's interesting that the Mirror is silver, with gold frame, and the snitch Gold, with silver wings.
Can Flitwick's Golden bubble ornaments be connected with the silver globe of the prophecy? Flitwick was surely Lily's mentor, and he adorns the evergreen tree with his wand.
The twins perhaps intuit Voldemort beneath Quirrel's turban. Do the "several" snowballs they bewitch to smack Voldemort in the face refer to a clue? Will the twins confront the Dark Lord directly in an icy environment? The twins know the Janus is there, beneath the turban.......
Wonderful detail about Percy biting into a silver sickle. Is this a sort of "biting the tail" clue? Will Percy's ambition be his downfall? Midas.
Great details, Elanor.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Nathan, I'm not sure where I read it but there were some posts suggesting that Ollivander could be blind -- that might explain the moon comment. The moon's just white right?
Snape's "blindness"... perhaps his abnormaly large hooked nose is to blame.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 14, 2005 12:50 pm (#977 of 1121)
Archangel, that idea has potential, because in certain instances people develop their other senses and refine their mental processes to compensate for the loss of a sense. Could Mr. Ollivander be held to be a Tiresias like figure.
Along the same line of thought Flich's name Argus reminds me of the hundred eyed being that was assigned to guard Io. He was later killed by Hermes.
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Elanor - Jan 14, 2005 1:05 pm (#978 of 1121)
Great catch about the midnight duel Nathan!
About Mr Ollivander being blind, I'm not convinced. There is something funny with his eyes, that is certain, but he seems to see well enough for taking measures and say that Harry has his mother's eyes. The mention of moon is interesting because conventional wisdom always said that the Moon acts upon events on Earth, and Ollivander's work had and will have some influence on the Wizarding World.
In alchemy, the moon is connected to silver and Ollivander's eyes are described as silvery as well. It is part of the couple of opposites Sun/Moon, King/Queen, from which light, the philosophical gold, has to come at the end of the work. So it might be a clue that light will come from his work, and that the wands he made are a major clue in the story.
If this meaning of "silvery" is correct, then it could be another clue that Peter's "silvery like the Moonlight" hand you just mentioned Hollywand will become useful to Harry in the future. So, the snake may indeed bite his own tail here...
I'm happy you liked the "mors mordre" discussion Hollywand! The Death Mark in the sky, the Death Mark on the DEs' arms, and this incantation whose meanings are numerous... If we see it as "mors" (the latin word) and mordre (the French word for "to bite") there is already several meanings since mors means "death" but also "corpse", "which gives death", "destruction" and "the end". So it means both "to bite death" -to defy death as Voldemort did?- (hence the Death Eater name) but also "to bite and give death".
On a side note, I have always thought that the fact that this mark was a tattoo was interesting because it reminds of old warriors initiations rites. It seems to be painful only to be touched by Voldemort and I always assumed that receiving this tattoo had to be very painful as well (as a rite has to be). I'm sure that Bella didn't move an eyelash then, and neither did Snape, but Peter was certainly a different story...
I do agree about the dragons and water connection! The metaphor of the dragon rising into the air is great. Should Harry be astride one once and the symbol will be complete: it is the symbol of the fusion of the alchemist and his work.
Great work Captain! And take heart, as long as some people remember and learn from the past, there is hope, and Jo tells us that too!
PS: Nathan, thanks for the SPEW moment with the Tiresias image, I couldn't help picturing Mr Ollivander doomed to be a woman for 7 years...
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Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 1:57 pm (#979 of 1121)
Hi Elanor, thanks for your kind and encouraging words. Congratulations on going to Accio, I am so happy for you and I hope you have a fantastic time!
Reading your comments on Morsmordre , the bite of death, yes, right, snakes kill by biting their victims. Why didn't I see this before. Right. Snakes are vilified because humans are horrified that they swallow their victims whole.
Right, Right. I am so grateful for this discussion thread, as I don't think I would even scratch the meaning's surface without all of these wonderful contributions.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 14, 2005 6:11 pm (#980 of 1121)
Elanor it would make life interesting for him indeed. But, I digress The idea has potential as a possible alchemical signifigance because it demonstrates the complimentary nature between male and female and the close relationship between Hermes and Aphrodite.
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Elanor - Jan 15, 2005 9:34 am (#981 of 1121)
I am so grateful for this discussion thread, as I don't think I would even scratch the meaning's surface without all of these wonderful contributions. May I borrow your words Hollywand? This is exactly what I think every day when I come here! Actually, it was your comment here about the bite of the snake that made me think to the snake charmer about Lily's behaviour this famous night as you posted on "the triumphant glint" thread (great idea BTW!).
Nathan, I agree that the Tiresias figure has some interesting possibilities because he is an androgynous symbol (sulfur and mercury united in the philosopher's stone). Tiresias is often seen as the greatest seer of Greece. There are several stories about how and why he became blind but they have one thing in common: it is the loss of his eyes that gave him the clairvoyance gift.
But it reminds me more of Moody than of Ollivander. The loss of one of his eyes earnt Moody a more powerful sight. On another hand, Sybill wears enormous glasses and when she makes her prophecy in PoA it is said "her eyes started to roll" (p.238), so she is blind too then.
I have continued my reread, this is for the chapter 10 - Hallowe'en
Harry's first training session is at 7 p.m., the magic number again.
Harry's broom is a nimbus 2000. Nimbus means cloud in Latin. It is also a word that means halo. Usually golden, this nimbus symbolizes the aura of someone with a powerful personality (from kings to gods...). It has a mahogany handle (the same wood as James' wand) and the name "nimbus" is written in gold. So his broom connects Harry to his father and may reinforce the fact that he is stronger on a broom.
The Quidditch Pitch has 3 golden poles at either end of it. 3 poles but one goal in fact, 3 = 1, very alchemical, isn't it?
I won't say again what we already said about the alchemical references of the Quidditch game but just mention again the 7 players, 4 balls (red, black and silver and gold) and the image of the quest of the gold.
On Hallowe'en feast, DD's makes "several purple firecrackers" with his wand, again he is connected with purple.
The Troll "foul stench". If we see stench as an expression of the beginning of the nigredo process this is very interesting IMO because his appearance unites the trio that will be able to start to work together from now on.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 15, 2005 10:03 pm (#982 of 1121)
Elanor, your commentary on Lily's ability to cast charms reminds me of the Lay of Luthien.
Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion, of how the mortal Beren fell in love with the Elven princess Luthien. To prove himself worthy Luthien's father Thingol commanded Beren from the Iron Crown of Morgoth one of the Silmarils. Luthien accompanied him on his quest. When they confronted Morgoth, Luthien cast a charm on Morgoth that enabled Beren to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.
I wonder if Lily's ability to cast charms was a part of what enabled Lily and James to thrice defy Voldemort.
The scene when the teachers arrive after the troll is knocked out raises a point namely that McGonagall is the first to arrive on the scene followed closely by Snape and Quirrell putting 3 teachers on the scene.
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 12:29 am (#983 of 1121)
Elanor, I was so pleased to read your observation that Nimbus can also be a cloud, I haven't noticed that before. Since clouds in the HP series seem to symbolize concealment and protection for Harry, I think that you've made a great connection.
I have a few observations to add regarding Harry's brooms. The connection to James' wand through the mahogany is important, I think, as it probably indicates additional protection for Harry. The mahogany wood was believed to provide a home with protection from lightning when planted outside the threshold.
We all know that the Nimbus was destroyed in a highly symbolic Quidditch match. It was then replaced by the Firebolt. I think that it may be meaningful that he went from a broom that symbolizes protection from bolts of lightning to a broom that epitomizes bolts of FIRE. It's also interesting that the Firebolt was made out of ash. Ash was believed to provide protection from drowning, and brings to mind the phoenix rising from the ASHes. I think that the destruction of one broom followed by the replacement of a broom made of ash may indicate the eventual destruction of Harry's wand and it's replacement (rising from the ashes). Harry was afraid that his wand would not survive continued contact with Voldemorts in the Priori Incantatem chapter, and I forsee a possible destruction of the wand when Harry defeats Voldemort at the end.
There are so many great discussions on this thread. Thank you all!
Barbie
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 10:35 am (#984 of 1121)
A lot of great ideas put forward by the group! It's marvelous the way a lot of the metaphors are related---I think we are on to a wonderful underlying iconography in the series.
The comments about Harry's two brooms, and the significance of oak to ash are wonderful. I can't wait for Book Six to see if more puzzle pieces can be linked with Alchemy.
I had these insights on the Potions Puzzle from the Philosopher's Stone just now, and I think some of the insights are new from what we have already pointed out about this cypher:
The puzzle belongs to Severus, the Potions Master, the most enigmatic of the professors, the one who seems to be evil, but is transformational. He is the last barrier between Voldemort, the Mirror of Erised, Harry and Dumbledore.
He gives the pair seven potions, four clues---a reference to the seven alchemical process uniting the four houses.
Two of the potions are "twins once you taste them, though different at first sight" (I think this is a reference to Harry and Hermoine as a hermaphroditic pair, on the quest)
One will send you forward, the other will send you back, danger lies before you, and safety lies behind. (Refers to what actually happens to them as they split and walk into the flames)
Choose, or remain here forever. (Choices make us who we are, and the pair make sacrificial choices for the greater good)
three of us are killers, standing in a line: (A triad of evil wizards would be: Voldemort, Bella and Lucius) Wormtail is pivotal.
Two of us contain nettle wine: ( a reference to the aquae vitae, to twins, to a hermaphroditic pair, to putrefaction of inedible elements to alcohol).
Hermione is the tranformational intellectual element that solves Severus' trial, so she overcomes his barrier, allowing Harry, the male half of the pair, to progress forward to attain the stone.
OK, I'm done, sorry for the long post. It's great to have a spot to write down these lunatic ravings. I mean Lunatic in a good way. ;-)
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 10:54 am (#985 of 1121)
Hollywand: Good points regarding the potions. I liked this one especially...
"Choose, or remain here forever. (Choices make us who we are, and the pair make sacrificial choices for the greater good)"
What's neat about that one is that I think that it shows Severus' choice regarding the Marauders. He can choose to "get over" his past so that he could get on with his life, but he has chosen instead to stay angry and bitter. In this way, he will remain forever the immature and angry youth of the past. Lupin has suffered injustice, but has moved on with his life. Severus has suffered abuse, but has chosen to hate instead. His choice has forced him to remain where he was. The anger that Severus feels will only continue to destroy him because he chooses to continue fanning the flame of his hatred.
Barbie
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 11:50 am (#986 of 1121)
Your reasoning is wonderful, Phoenix Song, (what a great screen name!) and I would like to take the opportunity to point out that Vitriol, or anger, was thought to be a key transformational process by the Alchemists. Anger is a sort of internal fire, and it is true that anger internalized and undigested is destructive rather than transformational. Here, you have hit on a key theme of the book: Harry must master his anger, he is infused with anger that is not his but Voldemort's, and Severus continually piques his anger. Harry makes Snape angry, by looking at earlier wounds that made Severus angry, and intrusion by Harry into Severus' past that shapes his present, and possibly his future.
Time exchange seems to be a salient theme---in the Occlumency lesson, Harry and Severus exchange temporal pain. Harry is paradoxically enriched by learning Severus' past---we understand that Harry is compassionate beyond his father's abilities, and Harry experiences some loss in the idealization of his father.
Order of the Phoenix ends on a vitriolic note----Harry hates Severus, Severus hates Sirius and Harry, Delores is the embodiment of institutional vitriol, Harry even hates Dumbledore. It is not until he gazes out at the Black Lake, on the Hogwarts grounds, and thinks of his earlier past with Sirius Black, that the psychological waters of the Black Lake begin to heal him. This is the Nigredo, the death and transformational process. I would argue that black is repeated much too much for this to be purely coincidental on Rowling's part, and she does say that this series owes its dark side to the untimely death of her mother.
Elanor, dear, I have a question for you if you please: I seem to have missed one of the Quidditch balls you mentioned earlier---I know there is the Black Bludger (Nigredo) the Golden Snitch (Albedo) and the Red Quaffle (Rubeo) ----I have missed the silver ball, can't believe it---can you please let me know where to find it? Thanks so much!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2005 11:53 am (#987 of 1121)
Hollywand the wings of the snitch are silver in color.
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 12:24 pm (#988 of 1121)
Wow! Great work everybody!
Barbie, I loved the ash/ashes connections, that is such a powerful image! I agree about what you wrote about Snape as well. He will have to walk into the flames of his past if he wants to move on, and this flames are most likely to burn...
Hollywand, you're right, this scene is so important and what you found is wonderful. The hermaphroditic pair is a great clue to notice, as are the references to alcohol! Bravo!
I continued my reread, this is for the chapter 11 - Quidditch
- Another reference to metals: "the lake like chilled steel". Steel is bound to the Aries sign, sign of fire, whose planet is Mars (iron). So, this 11th chapter begins with a martial reference, appropriate for the first Gryffindor/Slytherin match we see.
- there are "700 ways of committing a Quidditch foul", the number 7 again.
- "all happened during a World cup match in 1473". I find this date interesting, because 1473 is exactly 20 years after the end of the Hundred Year's War, and 2 years before the last peace treaty of the war was signed. It is also the War of the Roses period, just after Edward IV's crowning. I guess the war was not entirely forgotten then...
- Snape limps, hence the symbolism of the one who limps we already mentioned: the encounter with gods or the supernatural, or the ones who know the arts of fire are marked. We'll see that Snape is marked in many ways afterwards, this mark is the first one. I wonder if he has a scar from that encounter with Fluffy, the 3 headed dog...
- The match happened during the 11th month, at 11 o'clock and is related in the 11th chapter... We should have known something wrong was to happen...
- Gryffindors wear "scarlet" robes (the colour of blood) and Slytherins green ones.
- "Flint flying like an eagle up there" says Lee Jordan. It reminded me of the alchemical image of the fight between the eagles and the lion, during the alchemical process we already mentioned.
EDIT: You've been busy when I was writting! I do agree about the meaning of anger and vitriol! The more because VITRIOL are initials in fact, standing for "visita interiora terrae, rectificando invenies occultum lapidem" ("investigate the inside of the earth and by correcting, you will find the hidden stone"). Sometimes, the words "veram medicinam" (the true medicine) are added to the sentence. That is searching inside themselves that Harry, and Snape, will find their "stone", that is to say what will heal them.
About silver, Nathan is right, the golden snitch is described first like this: "It was bright gold and had little fluttering silver wings".
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Phoenix song - Jan 16, 2005 1:52 pm (#989 of 1121)
Thank you Hollywand! I'm glad that you like my screen name. Even before I began to really "study" the series, I had such a strong feeling that Phoenix Song would be critical in the eventual outcome of the series. The more that I study the books, the more certain that I am that it's integral.
I've recently found some passages that seem to give clues about Phoenix song and how it relates to the Alchemy process. Round Pink Spider recently came forth with some information that showed that in order to bring about harmony in the four houses/four elements again, Harry would have to develop a balance between his fire element as a Gryffindor and the water element of Slytherin house. The article that she found states that there would need to be a harmonia between the two found in the air element. This seemed to indicate that the harmonia would be found through the introduction of Phoenix Song.
It seems as if this was illustrated in the graveyard scene in GoF when the wand of Voldemort (water/Slytherin) was united with the wand of Harry (flame/Gryffindor) and the connection of the two brought forth Phoenix song (air element connected to music/harmony). The two duelists were picked up through the air, and were carried to a clear area of the graveyard and encased in a glowing dome of music that struck fear in Voldemort and sent courage to the heart of Harry. Another quite interesting thing about Phoenix song is that it is described as being an unearthly sound, which further shows that it is an Air element.
I found a passage this week that illustrates the transformational process that Harry will need to undergo to bring balance:
"He had the horrible impression that he was slowly turning into a kind of aerial that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemorts mood... (OOP, 25/554)
The significant part for me is that Harry can sense that he is turning/changing into an aerial (which would describe an AIR element) that was in tune (which is a musical symbolism indicating Phoenix song and balance) with Voldemort. I think that this passage illustrates Harry's transformation through the alchemical process using the air and music (Phoenix song). Any thoughts?
Barbie
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 1:53 pm (#990 of 1121)
The last posts about brooms and the golden snitch reminded me that I had found something about the wing symbolism in alchemy that I forgot to post (I should do with a Remembrall sometimes...).
Traditionaly, wings represent spirituality and the ability for the mind to ascend. Hermes/Mercury has little wings to his heels that allow him to cross the sky and to jump over mountains.
In alchemy, wings are connected to everything that is volatil, as mercury. About those wings, I found this quote from Basile Valentin (the translation is mine, sorry if it is not very good), from the book "The 12 keys of Philosophy": "Mercury became so proud that he hardly recognized himself. He threw away his eagle wings, devoured his slippery tail of Dragon and provoked Mars to fight".
This is a symbolical tale illustrating the transformations mercury has to do during the alchemical process. It reminded me Harry in OotP in a way: his anger/pride led him to lose his "wings" (his broom) during the Quidditch match and then led him to provoke Bella first and Voldemort's anger afterwards in the MoM battle. What do you think?
Edit: great post Phoenix Song! Again, I was writting when you posted, LOL! I do agree that harmony, the balance, will be essential in the future books. I loved the "air" connection you made!
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Hollywand - Jan 16, 2005 2:13 pm (#991 of 1121)
Great contributions, Phoenix Song and Elanor! I loved the passage about pride and Mercur, as a "dragon bites its tail"---Harry does make a mistake, several of them, due to his anger and overconfidence; both Severus and Dumbledore warn him, but alas, earwax. The Fool must head off the cliff and learn for himself. One reason why Albus does not interfere too much!
Phoenix Song, I hope you don't find these ideas disappointing, but I think Fawkes has been present in some form at every encounter between Voldemort and Harry. I think perhaps Harry's scar is a gift from Fawkes and not Voldemort. Dumbledore may have placed Fawkes as a guardian for Harry at the moment of the attack by Voldemort, Harry is "touched" by Fawkes in flames. This would explain the core Fawkes connection, and suggest that Voldemort clung to life by the connection with Fawkes' feather at the core of his wand. And the Holly wand with Fawkes feather chooses Harry. Fawkes loves Harry, and not Voldemort, and this will be Voldemort's undoing.
Regarding the "harmony"---I think you may find this in the conjuction of Harry and Hermione's names: Harmony. Hermione has been associated with the intellectual, Phlegmatic, water, female element. Harry is the Male, Sanguine, action element. Bringing these two forces together is Harmony.
Lots of howlers from shippers.
I am intrigued about the clues on Viktor and Durmstrang. Durmstrang and Viktor emerge from the center of the Black Lake, Viktor is the mysterious seeker that loves Hermione and pursues her, Viktor has pureblood wizard, dark and foreign origins. Viktor is duck footed, hooked nosed,he could be a sea eagle patronus. Viktor's hornbeam wand has a dragonheart string core, a reference to harmony, as does the Vine/Dragonheart of Hermione. Will he intervene as a love interest in the future books?
All the stir over Ron's "ash/willow" wand on Jo's website I think was a diversion from the clue that Hermione and Viktor share the same wand core.
I also could be headed for the Stoat Sandwich Cafe big time. l-)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2005 9:17 pm (#992 of 1121)
Elanor your reference to Snape limping reminded me of Hephaestus
This excerpt is taken from the Encyclopedia Mythica
Known as the lame god, Hephaestus was born weak and crippled. Displeased by the sight of her son, Hera threw Hephaestus from Mount Olympus, and he fell for a whole day before landing in the sea. Nymphs rescued him and took him to Lemnos, where the people of the island cared for him. But other versions say Zeus threw him from Mount Olympus after Hephaestus had sided with his mother in a quarrel. This legend says that Hephaestus fell for nine days and nine nights, and he landed on Lemnos.
Snape is much like Hephaestus in that they are considered to be master craftsmen and their physical appearance and fraility causes them to be isolated
In Chapter 11 Hagrid tells the trio how he acquired Fluffy from a Greek man. This statement raises three points.
Point 1: Is Fluffy a descendant of Cerebrus?
In Greek mythology, the three-headed watchdog who guards the entrance to the lower world, the Hades. It is a child of the giant Typhon and Echidna, a monstrous creature herself, being half woman and half snake.
According to legend the spittle of Cerberus was fatal so much so that from its spittle sprang the aconite plant. The following website between Cerberus and Aconite: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Magic As Cerberus vehemently resisted Heracles, barking furiously, his saliva dripped on the ground, giving birth to a poisonous plant called aconite; thus named because it flourishes on bare rocks. It is also known as 'hecateis,' because Hecate was the first to use it. Medea tried to poison Theseus with it, and the Thessalian witches used it in preparing the ointment that enabled them to fly. The modern name for aconite is wolfsbane.
Point 2: If so then why wasn't Fluffy's drool fatal to Ron?
Point 3: Is Ron immune to poisons?
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Elanor - Jan 16, 2005 10:17 pm (#993 of 1121)
A quick post before I leave for school just to say I loved what you wrote Hollywand and Nathan.
Hollywand: Regarding the "harmony"---I think you may find this in the conjuction of Harry and Hermione's names: Harmony. Hermione has been associated with the intellectual, Phlegmatic, water, female element. Harry is the Male, Sanguine, action element. Bringing these two forces together is Harmony.This is the perfect summarize of what a conjunction is! 2 separate elements that become one (to act "as one man") but remain separate from the other one.
Nathan: great catch with Hephaestus! I know I have read something interesting about him somewhere, I will search tonight! I love the Fluffy/Cerberus connection!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 17, 2005 12:52 pm (#994 of 1121)
There is one similarity I forgot to mention in my previous post. It has long been postulated that Snape suffered from some form of abuse or neglect at the hands of his parents. If this proves to be accurate then it would be another similarity because, Hephaestus was neglected by his parents. Also, according to the various legends about Hephaestus, he was married to either Aphrodite or Athena.
A new question could any of the marauders or Snape be viewed as a Loki like figure?
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Elanor - Jan 17, 2005 2:15 pm (#995 of 1121)
About the one who limps, this is what I found :
- The one who limps symbol can be very ambivalent because it can mean
1) a failure to adjust to the earth on which one is walking, that is to say to the world around him. It is the case for Oedipe (how do you say in English, Oedipus?) who limps because his feet were pierced when he was a baby. It would fit with Snape as well, since he has real difficulties to adjust with the other people he lives with and seems to have those since he was a child.
2) the mark of a symbolical mutilation, the sacrifice one has to do for being able to learn from the gods (as for Hephaestus)
- This symbolical mutilation can be seen as a nigredo process because that initiation allows him to ascend to a higher level of knowledge.
- Hephaestus is a blacksmith and, as one, he is the master of fire (the telluric fire, he works inside volcanoes). He is also the master of metals and hence very respected though feared too and he lives outside the village. He is ugly but efficient.
I don't know much about Loki, except that he can be seen as the squirrel who was sowing discord on the Yggdrasil tree, between the eagle and the dragon that lived there (a wink to Quirrel?). He is a god of fire that can't be trusted for sure, so why not?
He is also often seen as an hawk and Mme Hooch has been described with hawk eyes very often. The fox was also his emblem for he was very cunning. Does it help?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 17, 2005 3:11 pm (#996 of 1121)
Elanor, the only problem I see with comparing Snape to Oedipus is the fact that the adoptive parents of Oedipus loved him very much. He fled from them because he belived the doom that the fates had in store for him would come true if he remained with them which, is why he fled.
Loki, is the trickster god of Norse mythology who brings about the the final civil war among the Norse gods called Ragnarok or (Gotterdammerung) that will occur at the ending of the world.
This excerpt is from the Encyclopedia Mythica [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Loki is one of the major deities in the Norse pantheon. He is a son of the giant Farbauti ("cruel striker") and the giantess Laufey. He is regarded as one of Aesir, but is on occasion their enemy. He is connected with fire and magic, and can assume many different shapes (horse, falcon, fly). He is crafty and malicious, but is also heroic: in that aspect he can be compared with the trickster from North American myths. The ambivalent god grows progressively more unpleasent, and is directly responsible for the death of Balder, the god of light...On the day of Ragnarok, Loki's chains will break and he will lead the giants into battle against the gods.
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Elanor - Jan 17, 2005 10:18 pm (#997 of 1121)
Hi Nathan! I think I expressed myself badly yesterday (sorry, it was rather late and my brain far too slow... ).
I didn't want to say that Snape could be compared to Oedipus, not at all, just that Oedipus story is a good example of the symbolism of the man who limps and that this symbolism (a failure to adjust to the earth on which one is walking, that is to say to the world around him) could apply to Snape too, but I do agree that Oedipus can't be compared to Snape. (is it better written like that?)
About the Loki figure, I will search if I find something in my books! have a great night/day everyone!
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Elanor - Jan 18, 2005 1:32 pm (#998 of 1121)
Nathan, I have not yet found other details about the Loki symbolism, I'll try again!
PS reread following episode, chapter 12 - The Mirror of Erised
- First, what strikes me is that that key symbol of the book, the Mirror of Erised, is the 12th chapter of the book. "12 keys to the philosophy", the 12th key is the mirror?
- Fred and George are "punished for bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirrell around, bouncing off the back of his turban". Okay, that one is just because I love it... On a second thought, "balls", "to follow around" : this could be a circle reference maybe.
- During Potions, Harry is measuring out "powdered spine of lion-fish", another lion reference.
- There are "twelve towering Christmas trees" in the Great Hall and Professor Flitwick "had golden bubbles blossoming out of his wand". Christmas trees are symbols of life because they don't lose their leaves during the winter, they are the promise of better days. 12 of them, golden bubbles: this reinforces the symbol in a subtle way.
- Harry's Christmas presents: Another reference to music: Hagrid gives Harry "a roughly cut wooden flute" as a Christmas present. Music / harmonia that Harry has to give back to the Wizarding World but the "instrument" (flute / Harry) is still rough and needs to be trained before that.
- Harry receives an emerald green jumper from Mrs Weasley, the color we see McGonagall wear, the "positive" green, connected to the Graal quest. This very night, Harry will begin his quest of his past.
- The Invisibility Cloak: is "silvery grey", "gleaming", "like water woven into material". Though Harry can't see himself in the mirror anymore while wearing it, this description of the cloak makes me think to a mirror again.
- "Percy nearly broke his teeth on a silver Sickle embedded in his slice" of pudding. If I remember well Agatha Christie's The adventure of the Christmas pudding", the one who founds the coin in the pudding is meant to become rich. A hint to Percy's ambition? But I thought it had to be a golden coin (am I correct?) so it is interesting that this coin is a silver one.
- The Mirror of Erised has "an ornate gold frame". As we already said, the mirror symbolizes the beginning of the work in alchemy because it is a reflection of nature. The mirror is meant "to show the invisible from the visible so that one can see what is hidden". I thought that this quote (some alchemists thought Hermes himself said) fits very well with the Mirror of Erised, don't you think so? It is also the symbol of the refection between the earth and the heavens, the body and the mind...
- Harry meets DD in front of the Mirror the third time he goes there.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 18, 2005 5:38 pm (#999 of 1121)
Elanor, it is interesting that you should mention that story because in the New Years pudding is hidden a red jewel specifically a Ruby (Red Corundum) which is the second hardest mineral on the Mohs Scale having a hardness of 9 out of 10. Only diamonds having a greater hardness.
Point 1: The flute reminds me of Orpheus one of only two living individuals to descend into Hades and successfully defeat Cerberus.
Point 2: In the Mirror of Erised the relatives of Harry's that are mentioned have green eyes and red hair.
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Hollywand - Jan 18, 2005 5:54 pm (#1000 of 1121)
And the Fourth time Harry encounters the Mirror of Erised, it is in conjunction with the Voldemort/Quirrel Janus. Harry's purity of heart allows him to cross Dumbledore's boundry, and the stone appears to him, out of the reach of Voldmort. Harry lies to Quirrel to defend the stone, and Voldemort knows this.
Elanor, what a great set of details! If you don't mind my riffing on some of the details, here goes:
The Invisibiltiy Cloak, is a hidden gift from James through Dumbledore---a connection with the future Patronus, silver stag, Time Turner exchange. The Cloak is a silvery rainment which renders the body invisible. The Mirror is a silvery gateway that renders desire visible.
Can the Silver Cloak, the Mirror, the Snitch and the Pensieve be connected? It's interesting that the Mirror is silver, with gold frame, and the snitch Gold, with silver wings.
Can Flitwick's Golden bubble ornaments be connected with the silver globe of the prophecy? Flitwick was surely Lily's mentor, and he adorns the evergreen tree with his wand.
The twins perhaps intuit Voldemort beneath Quirrel's turban. Do the "several" snowballs they bewitch to smack Voldemort in the face refer to a clue? Will the twins confront the Dark Lord directly in an icy environment? The twins know the Janus is there, beneath the turban.......
Wonderful detail about Percy biting into a silver sickle. Is this a sort of "biting the tail" clue? Will Percy's ambition be his downfall? Midas.
Great details, Elanor.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 1001 to 1025)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:16 am
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 8:21 pm (#1001 of 1121)
I found a site on symbolism which the Alchemists might find interesting! I was surprised to note that it mentioned Catherine Wheels! Remember the Weasley Twins' afternoon of fireworks? hehe
Solitaire
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zelmia - Jan 18, 2005 8:21 pm (#1002 of 1121)
Egad! I'm completely out of the loop. Serves me right, I suppose
Well, I must say thank you to Elanor for staying on task with the re-read. I'll try to be more supportive as we enter chapter 13 - Nicolas Flamel.
The first thing that stands out for me is that Harry tells Neville (who has been cursed by Malfoy) "You're worth twelve of Malfoy." Why 12? Is that the Malfoy-Longbottom exchange rate? Or is it simply our old friend Douze making another appearance?
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Elanor - Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am (#1003 of 1121)
Good to see you here again Zelmia! We missed you! Interesting to see the number 12 again here. I'm planning to reread this chapter later today.
Thanks for the link Solitaire! The wheel is a powerful symbol indeed. I think RPS told us about it some times ago (connecting the Catherine wheel with the Wheel of Fortune tarot card).
Great connections Hollywand, I loved the Invisibility cloak's details, the silvery stag reference is wonderful. I think you're right about Flitwick and I'm sure he was deeply affected by Lily's death. I wondered about the twins as well...
BTW, have you noticed that Hollywand's post was the 1000th of this thread? WOW, champagne for everyone!
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Kerrie-Louise - Jan 19, 2005 12:33 am (#1004 of 1121)
Elanor, At least in the UK it has always been a silver coin in Christmas Puddings. Silver 6pence. Today you're not meant to do it though as someone might sue if you broke your teeth... *wanders off grumbling about health and safety ruining Christmas*
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 19, 2005 9:40 am (#1005 of 1121)
Note 1: In chapter 13 the trio discovers that Nicolas Flamel is 665 years old. While, the signifigance of 665 escapes me. His 666th birthday may prove to have pontential because, the number 666 has long had mystical associations.
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Also, the group might find this website on alchemy interesting.
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Elanor - Jan 19, 2005 12:59 pm (#1006 of 1121)
Thank you so much for the information Kerrie-Louise, I was trusting Agatha Christie because in her novel there was a gold coin in the pudding so I was wondering what was the real tradition. Thanks!
Chapter 13 - Nicolas Flamel
There are so many things to say only about the title of the chapter, the 13th BTW, not a very good omen for Nicolas Flamel...
- His name first is interesting: Flamel, with the word "flame" (flamme in French as well) as a root. In one of my books, it is said that his name could mean "the conqueror of the stone thanks to the fire". His wife, Pernelle is very important too because they really worked together. The real Flamel was born in 1330, so assuming Harry was born in 1980, he should have been 661 years old in 1991. Jo says that he was 665 the year before. As she knew his wife's name it is almost certain that she knew his year of birth as well so whether the dates we use for the story are wrong, whether it is symbolical (which is the most likely).
More than a bad omen, what is very interesting about that number is that it can be a solar symbol as well: we talked about the magic squares before and it is the result of the Square of the Sun which has 36 squares for the 36 first numbers and it is the result of the addition of these 36 numbers. It is called the Seal of the Sun. A solar symbol for a man of flame and a red stone, I like that symbol!
Another interesting thing is that Jo says he is an "opera-lover", another reference to music and harmony.
- Twice in the chapter Harry is described making circles on his broom: during the Quidditch match when he was "circling the game like a hawk" (another hawk reference BTW) and when he follows Snape in the Forest: he "flew in circles, lower and lower"
- Besides, after the match, Hogwarts windows are "glowing red in the setting sun", the color of the Philosopher's stone.
Thanks for the links Nathan!
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Hollywand - Jan 19, 2005 2:47 pm (#1007 of 1121)
Since Flamel is Dumbledore's partner, and we are told in Book One that Flamel and his wife will die once they get their affairs in order, will Harry perhaps replace Flamel as Dumbledore's alchemical partner?
To your point Elanor, it's amazing and wonderful to me that this thread has reached over a thousand (very wonderful) posts!
And to think, before finding the Lexicon, mostly I was wading through troll wrestling matches and "X is ssssoooo hottt!" over and over ad nauseum. What a relief to find the Lex. Thanks to Jo.
I have a funny story to tell you all may enjoy. I worked at a large British art company where one of our marketing managers worked for the ad agency that handles McDonalds. She always thought it was bizarre I was interested in reading "a children's story" like Harry Potter. She said that McDonald's had offered Rowling the "opportunity" (a golden one, to be sure) to have a Happy Meal based on Harry. The woman was stunned when she learned that Rowling replied in the order of: "That goes against everything Harry and I stand for." Go Jo. ;-)
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Elanor - Jan 20, 2005 1:29 pm (#1008 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! Jo does indeed sort our her priorities as here in France she allowed HP figures to be used in the traditional "Twelfth night cake" sold by a famous supermarket. It is called the "galette des rois" and it is a very good cake, eaten for the Epiphany, with a very old tradition: the one who finds the "bean" (it was a real one centuries ago) is the king of the day! HP fits so well with sweets...
Yesterday, I read another chapter, chapter 14 - Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
- Speaking about the exams which were to take place in 10 weeks, Hermione says "That's not ages, that's like a second to Nicolas Flamel".
10 weeks = 1 second, 10, the ouroboros, that is to say "Hen ta penta: one the whole", this is a nice image of it, don't you think so?
- BTW, Hermione is "reciting the twelve uses of dragon's blood", the 12 keys again.
- In the library, Harry was "looking up 'Dittany' in "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi"". I've searched a little about Dittany and something tells me that Harry should not forget what he learnt about this plant.
-> Dittany can be found only in Crete and this plant was very popular in Minoan Crete and Ancient Greece where it was known for its magic properties. The Minoan Crete in which Dedaelus also created the maze...
-> It was considered then, and still during the Middle-Ages, to be a highly therapeutic plant. Among other things, it was meant to cure wounds. Mythology says that, during the Troy war, Aeneas had been wounded and that no one could remove the arrow, but his mother Aphrodite put some dittany on the wound, the arrow felt and he was cured at once.
-> In ancient times, it was believed that a snake would allow itself to be burned to death rather than crossing the path of Dittany. It could be useful...
- One of the books about dragons Hagrids checked at the library was "From Egg to Inferno". Norbert's egg is some times afterwards described as "a huge, black egg". This reminds me off what we said about the egg symbolism in alchemy, the materia prima at the beginning of the work, the black materia prima that will became the Philosopher's stone after the great work, in which fire is much used. There are a lot of different sorts of fires used in the great work. Funny enough, one of them is called "Dragon Fire" named like that because it devours everything that is tainted.
- The rendez-vous with Charlie's friends happens at midnight, on Saturday, 12 again...
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Hollywand - Jan 20, 2005 7:04 pm (#1009 of 1121)
Elanor, I commend your subtlle re-reading of the Potter books and generously providing references. It's as if pearls are being strung together to bring us through the maze.
The details you mention regarding Hermione reciting the 12 uses of Dragon's blood---the text reference here seems a "Hermetic", mercurial reference to the significance of blood. If Lily's blood is the genesis of Harry's protection, If Harry's blood is a key ingredient in the reincarnation of Voldemort, If Dumbledore is a expert in the 12 uses of Dragon's Blood, and Hermione is the intellectual gateway to enlightenment, the reciting of the uses, Dragon's Blood may then be a significant factor in the Ouroboros cycle.
Hagrid, our Rubedo figure, is wounded by his half-brother. He heals his wounds with a giant dragon steak, a green, slippery thing that keep sliding to the floor. Could one of the uses of Dragon's blood be like Dittany, to heal wounds? If Fawkes' tears can heal wounds, can Dragons be a healing agent in the story?
Are there other clues hidden about dragon's blood hidden in the story that we may have missed?
It seems that the dragon's blood is green, from the description of Hagrid's steak----and this lends more intrigue to "The Half Blood Prince" title----is the green like Harry's eyes, a complete cycle? Is the green dragon's blood and opposition to Voldemort's red eyes? Hmmmm.
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Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 10:59 pm (#1010 of 1121)
Nathan, several posts back you made a comparison between Ollivander and Tiresias. I was thinking about Narcissa Malfoy, Narcissus, and mirrors--and looked up the Narcissus myth. I see that Tiresias made a prophecy about Narcissus: He would live long and happy as long as he did not know himself.
I can't help wondering whether a mirror--possibly the Mirror of Erised--might not bring about the downfall of Narcissa and her family. Could she be placed in any of the alchemical processes in this way?
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 20, 2005 11:22 pm (#1011 of 1121)
Some points I noted about chapter 14
Point 1: Quirrel is described paler and thinner could this merely be a foreshadowing of the possession of Quirrell by Voldemort and the parasitic relationship that exists between them and the extent to which it has hampered their alchemical development.
Point 2: The heads of the four houses each contributed a protective device. Could this be repesenatative of the four bodily humors or the four passions outlined by Thomas Aquinas
Point 3: The egg from which Norbert hatched was Black in color.
Addendum
Solitaire, I think that it there exists the possibility that either a miror or the Mirror of Erised could play a role in the downfall of the Malfoys.
Note: I edited my original post to respond to Solitaire's thoughts and to correct some typographical errors.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 21, 2005 11:13 am (#1012 of 1121)
The following text is taken from the Summa Theologica it details the commentary made by Aquinas on the four principal passions.
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I answer that, These four are commonly called the principal passions. Two of them, viz. joy and sadness, are said to be principal because in them all the other passions have their completion and end; wherefore they arise from all the other passions, as is stated in Ethic. ii, 5. Fear and hope are principal passions, not because they complete the others simply, but because they complete them as regards the movement of the appetite towards something: for in respect of good, movement begins in love, goes forward to desire, and ends in hope; while in respect of evil, it begins in hatred, goes on to aversion, and ends in fear. Hence it is customary to distinguish these four passions in relation to the present and the future: for movement regards the future, while rest is in something present: so that joy relates to present good, sadness relates to present evil; hope regards future good, and fear, future evil.
As to the other passions that regard good or evil, present or future, they all culminate in these four. For this reason some have said that these four are the principal passions, because they are general passions; and this is true, provided that by hope and fear we understand the appetite's common tendency to desire or shun something.
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Elanor - Jan 21, 2005 1:32 pm (#1013 of 1121)
Very interesting Nathan! I knew I had read something about Thomas Aquinas in a book about alchemy, I've checked and found the passage. Thomas was not an alchemist, though it was said he was one sometimes, but he was the disciple of St Albert the Great who was very interested in alchemy and Thomas respected that science very much. The number four is a very important symbol and the four passions is a very good example of that.
We have already connected the 4 houses to the 4 elements/humors and I like your idea very much that the 4 elements/humors/passions are combined for the protection of the stone. There are 4 houses but 1 Hogwarts and the houses take a united stand against the threat, as they will do against Umbridge in a more passive way in OotP.
Great idea about the fall of narcissa because of the mirror Solitaire! This symbol is so important in the books.
Brilliant post Hollywand! I do agree that the blood references, and especially the dragon blood ones, are a key to the story. The connections you made are wonderful. I will try and note each and every reference to dragon's blood, and to wizard's blood, while rereading. There is something here that must be under our very noses, as Scabbers or Sybill's warning were, that just waits to be seen.
Well, it is very likely that we don't have all the elements yet but we have enough for a nice brainstorming. For my part, each time I read "The 12 uses of Dragon's blood", I think to "The 12 keys of the Philosophy". I will search again! Thank you so much for the compliment BTW, but my ears went as red as Ron's sometimes... And the whole team deserves the compliment, this is our combined brains that make the discussion goes on. Come on lions!
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Archangel - Jan 21, 2005 10:40 pm (#1014 of 1121)
I posted a similar idea in the Narcissa thread and how the Mirror of Erised could bring ruin not only to the Malfoys but to Voldemort's war efforts as well. Has that thread been mulched?!
In any case, I posted there that just like Narcissus in the Greek myth, Narcissus could "fall in love" with an image that she sees in the Mirror of Erised. My guess is that the mirror might show her an image of the DEs winning the war and Lucius becoming the leader of whatever form of government that will be established after the war. Upon seeing this image, she sets off a chain of events that'll ultimately swing the war in Harry and the Order's favor. I foresee a tragic ending for her.
On Dragon Blood
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There's actually a plant called Dragon's Blood. Could the "12 uses of Dragon's blood" be actually 12 users of this plant? Interesting that it is associated to the planet Mars and Monday... Didn't the first war ended on a Monday? The tarot associations could be a reference to James and Lily too.
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Elanor - Jan 22, 2005 8:05 am (#1015 of 1121)
Archangel, that is brilliant! Of course Dragon's blood is a plant too! Now I really feel stupid, and right after that post, I'm going to iron my fingers. I should probably bang my head on the fridge as well because I deserve it. How could I have forgotten that?
I don't know if I told you about before but my history master's thesis was about the story of a general hospital during the 17th and 18th centuries. I spent a year in this said hospital, which is now a museum, working on its archives and every day I was seeing the beautiful 18th dispensary. One of the walls of the dispensary is covered with plant drawers from that time and when I read your post, I saw again at once that drawer with "sang de dragon" (dragon's blood) written on it. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure there is a drawer with "dictame "(dittany) written on it as well. I even worked on those drawers! **ironing my fingers...ouch!**
This is certainly another clue that "dragon's blood" is a key element of the books. There is the plant whose connections you mentioned are very interesting, there is the real dragon's blood that has healing properties as Hollywand reminded us: the green Dragon's blood that Hagrid uses after being hurt by Grawp. And there is a third one: the dragon's blood as an alchemical symbol.
In "The alchemy explained by its language", the author says that the dragon's blood appears after the white process: it is a scarlet liquid, also named "flower of the flowers", which has a powerful effect on the mind. Actually, the one who made it should be able to understand the "language of the birds", that is to say to understand the laws of nature.
His sense of time would also change, allowing him to understand the no-time of eternity. Now, that's interesting, he says that he becomes the "master of the hour": past, present and future coexist and his mind moves, not time. His perception of space changes as well and he is now able to study the machinery of the universe. He is a new man from now on. It is interesting to see that DD is connected to Dragon's blood, I can't help but think that it fits so well with him. If someone was to penetrate the mysteries of the universe ("I don't need a cloak to become invisible"), it can only be him in our story - and Flamel.
BTW, this symbol is also in the Niebelungen legend: Siegfried kills the dragon Fafnir whose heart he eats and the dragon's blood allows him to understand "the language of the birds" as well.
So, I wonder if, symbolically, we should not see dragon's blood as a metaphor of knowledge and transformation that leads someone to become a new man. What do you think?
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zelmia - Jan 22, 2005 9:57 am (#1016 of 1121)
I've nothing to add, but praise for the brilliance of Archangel's and Elanor's posts. After reading Archangel's I couldn't help agreeing with Elanor: Why didn't we see it before? Excellent work!!
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The Artful Dodger - Jan 22, 2005 10:07 am (#1017 of 1121)
Hello, I'm just a lurker and never posted on this thread before, but as Siegfried and the Nibelungen saga was mentioned by Elanor, I'd like to throw in a bit:
After Siegfried had slaughtered the dragon, he took a bath in the dragon's blood to make his skin invulnerable to physical attacks (following the advice of a fairy, I think). Unfortunately, the leaf of a lime tree covered his shoulder while taking the bath, leaving this part of his body unprotected, like an Achilles heel. That allowed Hagen to kill Siegfried later. Thought you might find this interesting, if you did't know before (it is a rather well-known part of the Nibelungen saga).
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 10:32 am (#1018 of 1121)
Wow, what a wonderful set of posts! Hopefully, I can add something useful:
Archangel's link provides some interesting chemical/alchemical links that follow the metaphors of the story:
Beneze organizes itself into a carbon ring. The carbon molecule is the foundation for life on this planet, as it can rearrange itself so easily as a basic building block. The alchemists' idea that the order emerges from mysterious attractions and repulsions is relevant here.
Another by product mention is aectic acid, vinegar or Ginerva for the Potter series. Acid is an element the alchemists considered potent for dissolution for coagulation. This is what happens to Voldemort, both as Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets; morphs to Voldemort, the anagram of the same character. Voldemort is dissolved by Harry, whose phoenix core produced wine (alchol) and is recoagulated and reincarnated by Harry's blood.
Alcohol as an agent in Dragon's Blood---Harry's "cinnabar bird feather" wand core produces wine. Hermione's wand is vine, the source of alcohol, wine a reference to Hermes, the dragon heart string connects the distillate of wine and blood which is recirculated by the heart.
If Ron's new wand is willow, this is a source of salycilic acid, another healing acid, the unicorn tail and animal that begins as gold and morphs into purest silver or platinum, with alchemists thought was a union of silver and gold.
Isn't it interesting that Witch's Ink is made from Dragon's Blood? This connects Rowling as a Hermes/author/spider figure, spinning the story.
This is so much fun. Thanks everyone!
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 11:04 am (#1019 of 1121)
an additional evolutionary thought I would like to add that is relevant here:
A bird is just a snake that has learned to fly.
So the fact that Harry is connected to Fawkes and the Basilisk underscores the dual pathway to his moral development.
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Elanor - Jan 22, 2005 2:20 pm (#1020 of 1121)
Wow, the cauldron is bubbling tonight! Great chemical connections Hollywand, they fit really well with what we already found! I loved the Witch's ink connection with Jo as well: she is definitely the cleverest witch of her age.
Now that I think of it, the Dragon's blood/witch's ink connection reminds me also of Umbridge's quill, that writes with blood ink.
The link between Fawkes and the Basilisk is curious indeed, we really should think about it.
The Artful Dodger, welcome to the thread! The Niebelungen saga is not the one with which I am the most familiar, thank you so much for the precisions! What I know about it is that there are several traditions about that story. In one of them, the oldest one, the hero is named Sigurd and not yet Siegfried and he is the one that kills the dragon, eats its heart and hence understand the "language of the birds". I believe that the story in which Siegfried takes a bath in the Dragon's blood is the Danish tradition. Do you know if this is correct?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 22, 2005 6:07 pm (#1021 of 1121)
the story of Siegfried/Sigurd has interesting parallels with the story of Achillies in terms of being made nearly invulnerable after being immersed in a liquid.
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Archangel - Jan 22, 2005 8:34 pm (#1022 of 1121)
Wow! Great connections everyone! Artful Dodger, welcome to the thread.
This is just my observation but Herbology seems to be considered a lesser(?... the right word escapes me...)subject in Hogwarts. I mean, apart from Neville and Hermione, we rarely read about other students fussing or excelling in this area. They're more into the "cool"/"action-packed" subjects like DADA, Charms, and Transfiguration. However, as we've seen in the series, knowledge in this subject is certainly a must. Hermione and the Devil's Snare episode immediately comes to mind! Me thinks, JKR is hiding clues in her plant associations like she's been hiding them in Trelawney's wacky predictions.
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Just to carry the dragon discussion further, the dracontia, the dragon's supposed third-eye is said to detect and cure all kinds of poison. I'm not sure though if the dragon can willingly give it but from what I read, it has to be taken before the dragon dies otherwise it'll be destroyed once the creature dies. The dracontia is also believed to be one of the important components in the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. Norbert is due for a re-appearance in the series.
Interesting that in the 12 Keys of Basil Valentine, the 3rd key involved an actual dragon. The original text is here. When I read the passage for the 3rd key, I couldn't help but think about DD, esp. the reference to the purple cloak.
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On Achilles and Sigurd, my take on this has always been mortals will always be mortals and will ultimately meet their end despite their efforts to avoid it. This actually parallels what Voldemort did in GoF. The new Voldemort emerged from a cauldron of bubbling liquid and proclaimed to his DEs how he had conquered death. The fly in the ointment, just like Sigurd's leaf and Achilles' mother's hold, could very well be Voldermort's use of Wormtail's flesh to resurrect him. His ignorance of the events in PoA, particularly of Wormtail and Harry's life-debt/bond, may prove to be why DD had that look of triumph when Harry told him the circumstances of Voldemort's rebirth.
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On Basilisk and Fawkes connection and evolution of birds from reptiles...
I think the snake-bird battle in CoS represents the battle that Godric and Salazar started years ago. The bird blinded the snake and blood poured from the snake's eyes is another way of saying "your blood mania has blinded you to our goal."
Differences in opinion was the cause of the rift, right? The reptile feels the bird became high and mighty when he grew feathers and learned how to fly and left him stuck in the ground. The bird thinks the reptile has allowed himself to be stuck in his position and couldn't open his mind enough to find a higher purpose in life.
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 9:12 pm (#1023 of 1121)
Great post, Archangel!! Wonderful comments on the bird/snake evolution metaphor interpretation.
Nice connections with vitriol. In reading the 3rd key, I couldn't help thinking of Harry as the gold vitriol, the angry golden acerbic royal son in his developing state. Thinking of the triad of sulphur, mercury and salt, I think of Wormtail (quicksliver), Sirius (sulphur) and Lupin (salt), perhaps.
I was looking at some pictures from the Goblet of Fire movie just posted on Mugglenet. The first picture is of Viktor Krum, a pretty imposing looking guy. Viktor has a shirt on that has a double headed red bird that could be read as an eagle or a phoenix, isn't that interesting? I looked up the flag for Bulgaria, but the image more closely matches the flag for Albania---but maybe it's an exact replica for another country, I just can't identify the icon.
It's intriguing to think that by the time we actually see the movie, we will have read Book Six, and our reactions will be totally different than if we could see it today.....
Elanor, I thought your comment about Dumbledore existing in the no-time of eternity was fantastic.
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Archangel - Jan 22, 2005 10:27 pm (#1024 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand!
About the Krum shirt, you're right. The emblem clearly resembles that of Albania. Albania interestingly enough is also known as Realm of Eagles. You'd be interested in the story behind the image. Another bird-snake battle!
I wonder if this is more of Durmstrang's crest rather than Bulgaria's.
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 10:36 pm (#1025 of 1121)
Maybe Voldemort, too, as that's where he retreated. Maybe?
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I found a site on symbolism which the Alchemists might find interesting! I was surprised to note that it mentioned Catherine Wheels! Remember the Weasley Twins' afternoon of fireworks? hehe
Solitaire
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zelmia - Jan 18, 2005 8:21 pm (#1002 of 1121)
Egad! I'm completely out of the loop. Serves me right, I suppose
Well, I must say thank you to Elanor for staying on task with the re-read. I'll try to be more supportive as we enter chapter 13 - Nicolas Flamel.
The first thing that stands out for me is that Harry tells Neville (who has been cursed by Malfoy) "You're worth twelve of Malfoy." Why 12? Is that the Malfoy-Longbottom exchange rate? Or is it simply our old friend Douze making another appearance?
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Elanor - Jan 19, 2005 12:00 am (#1003 of 1121)
Good to see you here again Zelmia! We missed you! Interesting to see the number 12 again here. I'm planning to reread this chapter later today.
Thanks for the link Solitaire! The wheel is a powerful symbol indeed. I think RPS told us about it some times ago (connecting the Catherine wheel with the Wheel of Fortune tarot card).
Great connections Hollywand, I loved the Invisibility cloak's details, the silvery stag reference is wonderful. I think you're right about Flitwick and I'm sure he was deeply affected by Lily's death. I wondered about the twins as well...
BTW, have you noticed that Hollywand's post was the 1000th of this thread? WOW, champagne for everyone!
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Kerrie-Louise - Jan 19, 2005 12:33 am (#1004 of 1121)
Elanor, At least in the UK it has always been a silver coin in Christmas Puddings. Silver 6pence. Today you're not meant to do it though as someone might sue if you broke your teeth... *wanders off grumbling about health and safety ruining Christmas*
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 19, 2005 9:40 am (#1005 of 1121)
Note 1: In chapter 13 the trio discovers that Nicolas Flamel is 665 years old. While, the signifigance of 665 escapes me. His 666th birthday may prove to have pontential because, the number 666 has long had mystical associations.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also, the group might find this website on alchemy interesting.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Elanor - Jan 19, 2005 12:59 pm (#1006 of 1121)
Thank you so much for the information Kerrie-Louise, I was trusting Agatha Christie because in her novel there was a gold coin in the pudding so I was wondering what was the real tradition. Thanks!
Chapter 13 - Nicolas Flamel
There are so many things to say only about the title of the chapter, the 13th BTW, not a very good omen for Nicolas Flamel...
- His name first is interesting: Flamel, with the word "flame" (flamme in French as well) as a root. In one of my books, it is said that his name could mean "the conqueror of the stone thanks to the fire". His wife, Pernelle is very important too because they really worked together. The real Flamel was born in 1330, so assuming Harry was born in 1980, he should have been 661 years old in 1991. Jo says that he was 665 the year before. As she knew his wife's name it is almost certain that she knew his year of birth as well so whether the dates we use for the story are wrong, whether it is symbolical (which is the most likely).
More than a bad omen, what is very interesting about that number is that it can be a solar symbol as well: we talked about the magic squares before and it is the result of the Square of the Sun which has 36 squares for the 36 first numbers and it is the result of the addition of these 36 numbers. It is called the Seal of the Sun. A solar symbol for a man of flame and a red stone, I like that symbol!
Another interesting thing is that Jo says he is an "opera-lover", another reference to music and harmony.
- Twice in the chapter Harry is described making circles on his broom: during the Quidditch match when he was "circling the game like a hawk" (another hawk reference BTW) and when he follows Snape in the Forest: he "flew in circles, lower and lower"
- Besides, after the match, Hogwarts windows are "glowing red in the setting sun", the color of the Philosopher's stone.
Thanks for the links Nathan!
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Hollywand - Jan 19, 2005 2:47 pm (#1007 of 1121)
Since Flamel is Dumbledore's partner, and we are told in Book One that Flamel and his wife will die once they get their affairs in order, will Harry perhaps replace Flamel as Dumbledore's alchemical partner?
To your point Elanor, it's amazing and wonderful to me that this thread has reached over a thousand (very wonderful) posts!
And to think, before finding the Lexicon, mostly I was wading through troll wrestling matches and "X is ssssoooo hottt!" over and over ad nauseum. What a relief to find the Lex. Thanks to Jo.
I have a funny story to tell you all may enjoy. I worked at a large British art company where one of our marketing managers worked for the ad agency that handles McDonalds. She always thought it was bizarre I was interested in reading "a children's story" like Harry Potter. She said that McDonald's had offered Rowling the "opportunity" (a golden one, to be sure) to have a Happy Meal based on Harry. The woman was stunned when she learned that Rowling replied in the order of: "That goes against everything Harry and I stand for." Go Jo. ;-)
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Elanor - Jan 20, 2005 1:29 pm (#1008 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! Jo does indeed sort our her priorities as here in France she allowed HP figures to be used in the traditional "Twelfth night cake" sold by a famous supermarket. It is called the "galette des rois" and it is a very good cake, eaten for the Epiphany, with a very old tradition: the one who finds the "bean" (it was a real one centuries ago) is the king of the day! HP fits so well with sweets...
Yesterday, I read another chapter, chapter 14 - Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
- Speaking about the exams which were to take place in 10 weeks, Hermione says "That's not ages, that's like a second to Nicolas Flamel".
10 weeks = 1 second, 10, the ouroboros, that is to say "Hen ta penta: one the whole", this is a nice image of it, don't you think so?
- BTW, Hermione is "reciting the twelve uses of dragon's blood", the 12 keys again.
- In the library, Harry was "looking up 'Dittany' in "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi"". I've searched a little about Dittany and something tells me that Harry should not forget what he learnt about this plant.
-> Dittany can be found only in Crete and this plant was very popular in Minoan Crete and Ancient Greece where it was known for its magic properties. The Minoan Crete in which Dedaelus also created the maze...
-> It was considered then, and still during the Middle-Ages, to be a highly therapeutic plant. Among other things, it was meant to cure wounds. Mythology says that, during the Troy war, Aeneas had been wounded and that no one could remove the arrow, but his mother Aphrodite put some dittany on the wound, the arrow felt and he was cured at once.
-> In ancient times, it was believed that a snake would allow itself to be burned to death rather than crossing the path of Dittany. It could be useful...
- One of the books about dragons Hagrids checked at the library was "From Egg to Inferno". Norbert's egg is some times afterwards described as "a huge, black egg". This reminds me off what we said about the egg symbolism in alchemy, the materia prima at the beginning of the work, the black materia prima that will became the Philosopher's stone after the great work, in which fire is much used. There are a lot of different sorts of fires used in the great work. Funny enough, one of them is called "Dragon Fire" named like that because it devours everything that is tainted.
- The rendez-vous with Charlie's friends happens at midnight, on Saturday, 12 again...
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Hollywand - Jan 20, 2005 7:04 pm (#1009 of 1121)
Elanor, I commend your subtlle re-reading of the Potter books and generously providing references. It's as if pearls are being strung together to bring us through the maze.
The details you mention regarding Hermione reciting the 12 uses of Dragon's blood---the text reference here seems a "Hermetic", mercurial reference to the significance of blood. If Lily's blood is the genesis of Harry's protection, If Harry's blood is a key ingredient in the reincarnation of Voldemort, If Dumbledore is a expert in the 12 uses of Dragon's Blood, and Hermione is the intellectual gateway to enlightenment, the reciting of the uses, Dragon's Blood may then be a significant factor in the Ouroboros cycle.
Hagrid, our Rubedo figure, is wounded by his half-brother. He heals his wounds with a giant dragon steak, a green, slippery thing that keep sliding to the floor. Could one of the uses of Dragon's blood be like Dittany, to heal wounds? If Fawkes' tears can heal wounds, can Dragons be a healing agent in the story?
Are there other clues hidden about dragon's blood hidden in the story that we may have missed?
It seems that the dragon's blood is green, from the description of Hagrid's steak----and this lends more intrigue to "The Half Blood Prince" title----is the green like Harry's eyes, a complete cycle? Is the green dragon's blood and opposition to Voldemort's red eyes? Hmmmm.
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Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 10:59 pm (#1010 of 1121)
Nathan, several posts back you made a comparison between Ollivander and Tiresias. I was thinking about Narcissa Malfoy, Narcissus, and mirrors--and looked up the Narcissus myth. I see that Tiresias made a prophecy about Narcissus: He would live long and happy as long as he did not know himself.
I can't help wondering whether a mirror--possibly the Mirror of Erised--might not bring about the downfall of Narcissa and her family. Could she be placed in any of the alchemical processes in this way?
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 20, 2005 11:22 pm (#1011 of 1121)
Some points I noted about chapter 14
Point 1: Quirrel is described paler and thinner could this merely be a foreshadowing of the possession of Quirrell by Voldemort and the parasitic relationship that exists between them and the extent to which it has hampered their alchemical development.
Point 2: The heads of the four houses each contributed a protective device. Could this be repesenatative of the four bodily humors or the four passions outlined by Thomas Aquinas
Point 3: The egg from which Norbert hatched was Black in color.
Addendum
Solitaire, I think that it there exists the possibility that either a miror or the Mirror of Erised could play a role in the downfall of the Malfoys.
Note: I edited my original post to respond to Solitaire's thoughts and to correct some typographical errors.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 21, 2005 11:13 am (#1012 of 1121)
The following text is taken from the Summa Theologica it details the commentary made by Aquinas on the four principal passions.
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I answer that, These four are commonly called the principal passions. Two of them, viz. joy and sadness, are said to be principal because in them all the other passions have their completion and end; wherefore they arise from all the other passions, as is stated in Ethic. ii, 5. Fear and hope are principal passions, not because they complete the others simply, but because they complete them as regards the movement of the appetite towards something: for in respect of good, movement begins in love, goes forward to desire, and ends in hope; while in respect of evil, it begins in hatred, goes on to aversion, and ends in fear. Hence it is customary to distinguish these four passions in relation to the present and the future: for movement regards the future, while rest is in something present: so that joy relates to present good, sadness relates to present evil; hope regards future good, and fear, future evil.
As to the other passions that regard good or evil, present or future, they all culminate in these four. For this reason some have said that these four are the principal passions, because they are general passions; and this is true, provided that by hope and fear we understand the appetite's common tendency to desire or shun something.
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Elanor - Jan 21, 2005 1:32 pm (#1013 of 1121)
Very interesting Nathan! I knew I had read something about Thomas Aquinas in a book about alchemy, I've checked and found the passage. Thomas was not an alchemist, though it was said he was one sometimes, but he was the disciple of St Albert the Great who was very interested in alchemy and Thomas respected that science very much. The number four is a very important symbol and the four passions is a very good example of that.
We have already connected the 4 houses to the 4 elements/humors and I like your idea very much that the 4 elements/humors/passions are combined for the protection of the stone. There are 4 houses but 1 Hogwarts and the houses take a united stand against the threat, as they will do against Umbridge in a more passive way in OotP.
Great idea about the fall of narcissa because of the mirror Solitaire! This symbol is so important in the books.
Brilliant post Hollywand! I do agree that the blood references, and especially the dragon blood ones, are a key to the story. The connections you made are wonderful. I will try and note each and every reference to dragon's blood, and to wizard's blood, while rereading. There is something here that must be under our very noses, as Scabbers or Sybill's warning were, that just waits to be seen.
Well, it is very likely that we don't have all the elements yet but we have enough for a nice brainstorming. For my part, each time I read "The 12 uses of Dragon's blood", I think to "The 12 keys of the Philosophy". I will search again! Thank you so much for the compliment BTW, but my ears went as red as Ron's sometimes... And the whole team deserves the compliment, this is our combined brains that make the discussion goes on. Come on lions!
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Archangel - Jan 21, 2005 10:40 pm (#1014 of 1121)
I posted a similar idea in the Narcissa thread and how the Mirror of Erised could bring ruin not only to the Malfoys but to Voldemort's war efforts as well. Has that thread been mulched?!
In any case, I posted there that just like Narcissus in the Greek myth, Narcissus could "fall in love" with an image that she sees in the Mirror of Erised. My guess is that the mirror might show her an image of the DEs winning the war and Lucius becoming the leader of whatever form of government that will be established after the war. Upon seeing this image, she sets off a chain of events that'll ultimately swing the war in Harry and the Order's favor. I foresee a tragic ending for her.
On Dragon Blood
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There's actually a plant called Dragon's Blood. Could the "12 uses of Dragon's blood" be actually 12 users of this plant? Interesting that it is associated to the planet Mars and Monday... Didn't the first war ended on a Monday? The tarot associations could be a reference to James and Lily too.
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Elanor - Jan 22, 2005 8:05 am (#1015 of 1121)
Archangel, that is brilliant! Of course Dragon's blood is a plant too! Now I really feel stupid, and right after that post, I'm going to iron my fingers. I should probably bang my head on the fridge as well because I deserve it. How could I have forgotten that?
I don't know if I told you about before but my history master's thesis was about the story of a general hospital during the 17th and 18th centuries. I spent a year in this said hospital, which is now a museum, working on its archives and every day I was seeing the beautiful 18th dispensary. One of the walls of the dispensary is covered with plant drawers from that time and when I read your post, I saw again at once that drawer with "sang de dragon" (dragon's blood) written on it. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure there is a drawer with "dictame "(dittany) written on it as well. I even worked on those drawers! **ironing my fingers...ouch!**
This is certainly another clue that "dragon's blood" is a key element of the books. There is the plant whose connections you mentioned are very interesting, there is the real dragon's blood that has healing properties as Hollywand reminded us: the green Dragon's blood that Hagrid uses after being hurt by Grawp. And there is a third one: the dragon's blood as an alchemical symbol.
In "The alchemy explained by its language", the author says that the dragon's blood appears after the white process: it is a scarlet liquid, also named "flower of the flowers", which has a powerful effect on the mind. Actually, the one who made it should be able to understand the "language of the birds", that is to say to understand the laws of nature.
His sense of time would also change, allowing him to understand the no-time of eternity. Now, that's interesting, he says that he becomes the "master of the hour": past, present and future coexist and his mind moves, not time. His perception of space changes as well and he is now able to study the machinery of the universe. He is a new man from now on. It is interesting to see that DD is connected to Dragon's blood, I can't help but think that it fits so well with him. If someone was to penetrate the mysteries of the universe ("I don't need a cloak to become invisible"), it can only be him in our story - and Flamel.
BTW, this symbol is also in the Niebelungen legend: Siegfried kills the dragon Fafnir whose heart he eats and the dragon's blood allows him to understand "the language of the birds" as well.
So, I wonder if, symbolically, we should not see dragon's blood as a metaphor of knowledge and transformation that leads someone to become a new man. What do you think?
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zelmia - Jan 22, 2005 9:57 am (#1016 of 1121)
I've nothing to add, but praise for the brilliance of Archangel's and Elanor's posts. After reading Archangel's I couldn't help agreeing with Elanor: Why didn't we see it before? Excellent work!!
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The Artful Dodger - Jan 22, 2005 10:07 am (#1017 of 1121)
Hello, I'm just a lurker and never posted on this thread before, but as Siegfried and the Nibelungen saga was mentioned by Elanor, I'd like to throw in a bit:
After Siegfried had slaughtered the dragon, he took a bath in the dragon's blood to make his skin invulnerable to physical attacks (following the advice of a fairy, I think). Unfortunately, the leaf of a lime tree covered his shoulder while taking the bath, leaving this part of his body unprotected, like an Achilles heel. That allowed Hagen to kill Siegfried later. Thought you might find this interesting, if you did't know before (it is a rather well-known part of the Nibelungen saga).
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 10:32 am (#1018 of 1121)
Wow, what a wonderful set of posts! Hopefully, I can add something useful:
Archangel's link provides some interesting chemical/alchemical links that follow the metaphors of the story:
Beneze organizes itself into a carbon ring. The carbon molecule is the foundation for life on this planet, as it can rearrange itself so easily as a basic building block. The alchemists' idea that the order emerges from mysterious attractions and repulsions is relevant here.
Another by product mention is aectic acid, vinegar or Ginerva for the Potter series. Acid is an element the alchemists considered potent for dissolution for coagulation. This is what happens to Voldemort, both as Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets; morphs to Voldemort, the anagram of the same character. Voldemort is dissolved by Harry, whose phoenix core produced wine (alchol) and is recoagulated and reincarnated by Harry's blood.
Alcohol as an agent in Dragon's Blood---Harry's "cinnabar bird feather" wand core produces wine. Hermione's wand is vine, the source of alcohol, wine a reference to Hermes, the dragon heart string connects the distillate of wine and blood which is recirculated by the heart.
If Ron's new wand is willow, this is a source of salycilic acid, another healing acid, the unicorn tail and animal that begins as gold and morphs into purest silver or platinum, with alchemists thought was a union of silver and gold.
Isn't it interesting that Witch's Ink is made from Dragon's Blood? This connects Rowling as a Hermes/author/spider figure, spinning the story.
This is so much fun. Thanks everyone!
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 11:04 am (#1019 of 1121)
an additional evolutionary thought I would like to add that is relevant here:
A bird is just a snake that has learned to fly.
So the fact that Harry is connected to Fawkes and the Basilisk underscores the dual pathway to his moral development.
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Elanor - Jan 22, 2005 2:20 pm (#1020 of 1121)
Wow, the cauldron is bubbling tonight! Great chemical connections Hollywand, they fit really well with what we already found! I loved the Witch's ink connection with Jo as well: she is definitely the cleverest witch of her age.
Now that I think of it, the Dragon's blood/witch's ink connection reminds me also of Umbridge's quill, that writes with blood ink.
The link between Fawkes and the Basilisk is curious indeed, we really should think about it.
The Artful Dodger, welcome to the thread! The Niebelungen saga is not the one with which I am the most familiar, thank you so much for the precisions! What I know about it is that there are several traditions about that story. In one of them, the oldest one, the hero is named Sigurd and not yet Siegfried and he is the one that kills the dragon, eats its heart and hence understand the "language of the birds". I believe that the story in which Siegfried takes a bath in the Dragon's blood is the Danish tradition. Do you know if this is correct?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 22, 2005 6:07 pm (#1021 of 1121)
the story of Siegfried/Sigurd has interesting parallels with the story of Achillies in terms of being made nearly invulnerable after being immersed in a liquid.
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Archangel - Jan 22, 2005 8:34 pm (#1022 of 1121)
Wow! Great connections everyone! Artful Dodger, welcome to the thread.
This is just my observation but Herbology seems to be considered a lesser(?... the right word escapes me...)subject in Hogwarts. I mean, apart from Neville and Hermione, we rarely read about other students fussing or excelling in this area. They're more into the "cool"/"action-packed" subjects like DADA, Charms, and Transfiguration. However, as we've seen in the series, knowledge in this subject is certainly a must. Hermione and the Devil's Snare episode immediately comes to mind! Me thinks, JKR is hiding clues in her plant associations like she's been hiding them in Trelawney's wacky predictions.
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Just to carry the dragon discussion further, the dracontia, the dragon's supposed third-eye is said to detect and cure all kinds of poison. I'm not sure though if the dragon can willingly give it but from what I read, it has to be taken before the dragon dies otherwise it'll be destroyed once the creature dies. The dracontia is also believed to be one of the important components in the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. Norbert is due for a re-appearance in the series.
Interesting that in the 12 Keys of Basil Valentine, the 3rd key involved an actual dragon. The original text is here. When I read the passage for the 3rd key, I couldn't help but think about DD, esp. the reference to the purple cloak.
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On Achilles and Sigurd, my take on this has always been mortals will always be mortals and will ultimately meet their end despite their efforts to avoid it. This actually parallels what Voldemort did in GoF. The new Voldemort emerged from a cauldron of bubbling liquid and proclaimed to his DEs how he had conquered death. The fly in the ointment, just like Sigurd's leaf and Achilles' mother's hold, could very well be Voldermort's use of Wormtail's flesh to resurrect him. His ignorance of the events in PoA, particularly of Wormtail and Harry's life-debt/bond, may prove to be why DD had that look of triumph when Harry told him the circumstances of Voldemort's rebirth.
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On Basilisk and Fawkes connection and evolution of birds from reptiles...
I think the snake-bird battle in CoS represents the battle that Godric and Salazar started years ago. The bird blinded the snake and blood poured from the snake's eyes is another way of saying "your blood mania has blinded you to our goal."
Differences in opinion was the cause of the rift, right? The reptile feels the bird became high and mighty when he grew feathers and learned how to fly and left him stuck in the ground. The bird thinks the reptile has allowed himself to be stuck in his position and couldn't open his mind enough to find a higher purpose in life.
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 9:12 pm (#1023 of 1121)
Great post, Archangel!! Wonderful comments on the bird/snake evolution metaphor interpretation.
Nice connections with vitriol. In reading the 3rd key, I couldn't help thinking of Harry as the gold vitriol, the angry golden acerbic royal son in his developing state. Thinking of the triad of sulphur, mercury and salt, I think of Wormtail (quicksliver), Sirius (sulphur) and Lupin (salt), perhaps.
I was looking at some pictures from the Goblet of Fire movie just posted on Mugglenet. The first picture is of Viktor Krum, a pretty imposing looking guy. Viktor has a shirt on that has a double headed red bird that could be read as an eagle or a phoenix, isn't that interesting? I looked up the flag for Bulgaria, but the image more closely matches the flag for Albania---but maybe it's an exact replica for another country, I just can't identify the icon.
It's intriguing to think that by the time we actually see the movie, we will have read Book Six, and our reactions will be totally different than if we could see it today.....
Elanor, I thought your comment about Dumbledore existing in the no-time of eternity was fantastic.
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Archangel - Jan 22, 2005 10:27 pm (#1024 of 1121)
Thanks Hollywand!
About the Krum shirt, you're right. The emblem clearly resembles that of Albania. Albania interestingly enough is also known as Realm of Eagles. You'd be interested in the story behind the image. Another bird-snake battle!
I wonder if this is more of Durmstrang's crest rather than Bulgaria's.
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Hollywand - Jan 22, 2005 10:36 pm (#1025 of 1121)
Maybe Voldemort, too, as that's where he retreated. Maybe?
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 1026 to 1050)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:17 am
Archangel - Jan 22, 2005 10:46 pm (#1026 of 1121)
It's actually interesting that Voldemort the Snake used Albania, the Realm of Eagles, as his haven during his vapor days. Now that I think about it, could Durmstrang be located in Albania? It's near the Adriatic Sea so travelling by ship to London seems to be more likely.
More on Viktor Krum and the possibility of him being part of royal lineage... I never gave his surname that much thought so when I "Googled" it, guess what I found -- there's a Bulgarian ruler named Krum!
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Solitaire - Jan 22, 2005 10:51 pm (#1027 of 1121)
Bringing the Nibelungenlied into the story is interesting. Can the Gringotts Goblins be compared to the Nibelungs? Something about their gold deep in the earth reminds me of the vaults in Gringotts. Isn't it guarded by dragons?
I suppose, too, the House-elves could be compared to the Nibelungs, in that they labor beneath the houses, castles, etc., that they serve. There is even a treacherous Nibelung who is killed. Could this be a counterpart to Kreacher? Does it bode ill for him? (Note the similar spelling of treachery and Kreacher. Well, they look similar to me.)
Okay, I'll stop now.
Solitaire
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 2:46 am (#1028 of 1121)
Aren't Nibelung like the royal family in the story? IIRC, it was a dwarf that created the ring that *everybody* wanted. I must confess I haven't paid much attention to this work since when I was in HS our teacher made us choose which work we'd like to discuss -- it was this or LOTR. Our class choose the title that we could easily read.
Solitaire's post made me think what will happen to a person who manages to steal something from the goblins. I get this impression that no one's ever done it although obviously there have been attempts. (As I wrote this, the "Take My Breath Away" scene in Ocean's 11 flashed before my eyes! LOL)
I know this is just me but whenever I hear the word goblin, I usually think about "hemoglobin". Must be because they rhyme. Hehe
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Hollywand - Jan 23, 2005 3:07 am (#1029 of 1121)
I am stunned. These are fantastic connections! The background on Krum is brilliant, as are the connections with Gringotts! Bravo!!!
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 4:49 am (#1030 of 1121)
Just to wrap-up the Krum connections for today... the first time Harry saw Krum, he (Harry) thought Krum looked like an overgrown bird of prey and immediately noticed his hooked/aquiline nose. This certainly ties up to the folk story about Albania's emblem (Son of Eagle) and Khan Krum.
Notice too that Khan Krum's greatest achievement had something to do with uniting warring tribes. IF JKR got the Krum name from this famous ruler, Viktor might have a more significant role than just Hermione's *friend*. The name Viktor is the Slavic form of Victor, which means conqueror or victory. Hmmm... Victorious Viktor/Vindictive Viktor.
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Hollywand - Jan 23, 2005 7:34 am (#1031 of 1121)
The link you provided, Archangel, was fantastic. You are great at finding relevant reference material!
I especially loved the parts where Khan Krum pleads for peace and fairness, yet his adversaries reject his proposals, to their own destruction. Krum may be our Noble Dark Lord, a sea eagle animagus or Patronus.
The silver lined victory skull---a wonderful grotesque link to the story.
According to Mugglenet, Hermione and Krum share a kiss in the Goblet of Fire movies, and that's not in the text that I remember.....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 23, 2005 10:54 am (#1032 of 1121)
In re-reading chapter 15 I noticed a curious detail when Hagrid paired the students that were serving detention with him.
Neville, the son of an Auror was paired with Draco the son of a Death Eater. This is also a interesting demonstration of yin and yang in this pairing because, Neville is inherently courageous as is demonstrated in the Battle of the DoM while Draco is shown to be a coward as is demonstrated by his need to have Fang.
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Elanor - Jan 23, 2005 12:02 pm (#1033 of 1121)
Wow! You've been very busy. I had such a great time reading your posts everyone! Bravo! The connections with Krum are wonderful. I love the eagle connection: as a seeker he needs to have the eye of the eagle, doesn't he? There is so much to notice in that eagle/snake symbolism. Great work!
And I do agree with you Archangel, there is more in Herbology than meet the eye, as there is more in Neville than meet the eye as well BTW. Since this reread, I had never truly noticed the plants and potions mentioned in the books, but some serious references are hidden here and I think we have to keep our eyes opened for them.
I didn't log in before today because I took advantage of a quiet, cold and snowy day for finishing my reread of PS (but I'm sorry I missed that great discussion "in live", though most of it must have been in the middle of the night for me, come to think of it!). I took a lot of notes, so this is for Chapter 15- The Forbidden Forest first.
- Hour-glasses record the house points, not any clock. This is important because the hourglass is an interesting symbol, the symbol of the inexorable way time goes by. Chronos is represented with an hourglass. As it has to be turned upside down from time to time, it is the symbol of a cycle, a circle again.
- Harry says that he "would have gambled twelve Philosopher's stones that Snape had just left the room". 12 again!
- The detention takes place at 11 p.m., a hint to danger again.
- The unicorn blood is silvery. Later it is also described as "silver blue". The dead unicorn was found "last Wednesday", Mercury day, hence a connection with quicksilver? This would be logical since in alchemy, the unicorn represents Mercury that has to be united to the lion (sulfur) for making the philosopher's gold. It is also an androgynous symbol, as Mercury is. Another detail: on the Great-Britain crest, the lion symbolizes England and the Unicorn Scotland.
- The centaurs keep saying that Mars is bright, unusually bright, symbol of war to come. Firenze's head "was dappled silver in the moonlight", another reference to the connection between silver and the Moon.
- Firenze's eyes are described as "astonishing blue eyes". The symbolism of the colour blue is very interesting. It means disregard of the soul for what is material, wisdom and, above all, truth.
- I won't say again what we already said about the dark forest symbolism, but just that the references to darkness and silence are omnipresent.
- There is another reference to iron: "It was as though an iron fist had clenched suddenly around Harry's heart". The metal of Mars, the metal of war...
Oh my! I have been very long-winded, I will write about the other chapters later or tomorrow. Sorry for the length!
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 6:38 pm (#1034 of 1121)
Hermione kisses Krum... shouldn't it be vice versa?!?! Hollywand, your post certainly woke me up today!
Nathan, me thinks a Draco-Neville showdown is inevitable with the White Queen, Bella, as the catalyst.
Elanor, I know what you mean. I really believe JKR is hiding/dropping her clues in an off-hand kind of way that we, as readers, wouldn't really give that much thought during our first/second reads like Hermione's eihwaz/ehwaz mix-up, Trelawney's predictions, and of course the Dobby "can't tell you" clues. Why not in plants and potions? Great sleuthing as usual!
I remembered your post in the Flamel thread about Voldemort being unable to attain the stone because it requires humanity that he doesn't have. The blood of the unicorn robbed him of this and it is only fitting that the blood is silver. Isn't it that silver is the precursor of gold in alchemy? Voldemort got stuck in his quest because of his own doing!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 23, 2005 9:09 pm (#1035 of 1121)
Archangel, I agree the idea some point that could prove to be most fascinating.
Also, this thought just occurred to me four of the staff wwho provided a barrier to protect the stone are members of the Order of the Phoenix. It makes me wonder whether Flitwick and Sprout are as well.
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Archangel - Jan 24, 2005 3:34 am (#1036 of 1121)
Hmmm... they should be unless DD has a good reason why he doesn't want his whole staff affiliated with the order like security and continuity reasons just in case he doesn't make it. In other words, I'm not totally set on them being members but they're surely sympathetic to the cause.
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Just to go off-tangent here...
"Draught of the Living Death" -- Is this what Snape was referring to when he mentioned putting a stopper in death? According to the Lex, this potions causes one to fall into a deep sleep (a la Juliet in Romeo & Juliet). Harry's dreams have always been harbingers and of course, there's that wonderful line from the PoA movie about dreams being a world entirely owned by the dreamer (OK, I butchered the line.). I'm thinking that with this potion, JKR could very well take us into this realm and give us an extraordinary setting for a battle, journey, training or what-have-you.
Does Voldemort dream or even sleep in his current state/being?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 24, 2005 4:46 am (#1037 of 1121)
"- Firenze's eyes are described as "astonishing blue eyes". The symbolism of the colour blue is very interesting. It means disregard of the soul for what is material, wisdom and, above all, truth."
I find it interesting that Dumbledore's eyes are also blue.
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Hollywand - Jan 24, 2005 7:53 am (#1038 of 1121)
Archangel, your post on the Hermione/Krum made me laugh. I wrote, "They share a kiss". I would bet that Krum is the, um, shall we say, Seeker, in the action since Rowling has written Krum to be smitten by Hermione.
Another thought on Krum symbolism. If he wears the double headed eagle, of Albania, he is also yet another Janus figure. The red icon on his shirt indicates a link with the colors of the cinnabar bird as well.
*********************************** It's interesting that Potions and Dreams are brought together at this juncture of the discussion.
Potions tranform the body, diminishing, healing or shape changing; Dreams transform the mind in a metaphor analogous to a potion.
I have always wondered if the task Dumbledore asks Severus to perfom, which makes him grow pale, is the preparation of a potion and not a spy journey. Dumbledore may be asking Severus to begin making the Draught of Death, part of his plan B to sheild Harry from Voldemort.
It's interesting that in Harry's dreams, Hermione urges Harry to go farther than he wants to go (give Cho the Firebolt) when she often restrains him in reality.
Harry encounters Voldemort on the common ground of dreams.Harry is drawn to his Voldemort dreams in a similar attraction to the Veil.
And the Greeks describe Death and Sleep as twins. Hmmmm.
I don't recall that we are given enough information to speculate on Voldemort's dreams, only his poessession of Nagini.
Sibyll is linked to comically to dream interpretaion, and linked to foretelling the future. Hmmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 24, 2005 9:04 am (#1039 of 1121)
Great thoughts about dreams Hollywand! An alchemist of the Antiquity, Zozime of Panopolis, was saying that, in dreams, the self, that is to say the centre of the psyche (which means soul in Greek), was expressing itself and that it was showing the way the dreamer had to follow. Interesting if we connect this to what you said: "Hermione urges Harry to go farther than he wants to go (give Cho the Firebolt) when she often restrains him in reality", don't you think so?
TBE, it's good to see you here again! And I do agree, this symbolism fits very well with DD too. In PS, DD says that about the truth: "The truth. Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." and then "I shall not, of course, lie." DD doesn't lie and his eyes say the same thing.
"The Draught if the Living Death", yes, I think you're right and that it will appear again in the story. It could be also a trick to make Harry believe one of his friends is dead and therefore make him dashing for danger. Hmm...
Archangel: I remembered your post in the Flamel thread about Voldemort being unable to attain the stone because it requires humanity that he doesn't have. The blood of the unicorn robbed him of this and it is only fitting that the blood is silver. Isn't it that silver is the precursor of gold in alchemy? Voldemort got stuck in his quest because of his own doing!
In fact,if the process of the Philosopher's Stone stops at the end of the Albedo process, the alchemist will have a stone that will allow him to turn every metal into silver. Only the Stone obtained after the Rubedo process can turn metals into gold, and give the Elixir of Life. So, I think his lack of humanity would have stuck Voldemort in the Albedo process literally, if he tried to create the stone (which he certainly did, IMO) and symbolically as well. BTW, I loved your answer on that thread: "upon reading your post about Voldemort getting his pale hands on the manuscript, I suddenly formed this mental picture of him going through the list and ticking the requisites one by one until he comes to the last item, "Requires Humanity", and goes off screaming "DRAT! I WAS THIS CLOSE!". LOL!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 24, 2005 11:56 am (#1040 of 1121)
Archangel, your ealier post about Albania being the land of the eagles presented series of thought provoking observations.
Point 1: Could Voldemort be an animagus with his form being some form of eagle?
Point 2: Voldemort seems to be because of his stature generally indifferent to the witches and wizards he believes are less powerful or are in some other way inferior to him much liike an eagle does not fear smaller birds.
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Elanor - Jan 24, 2005 12:36 pm (#1041 of 1121)
Interesting idea Nathan, but I still think the basilisk represents Voldemort better. Basilisks were known to be the kings of snakes and I can't help but think that this "King of Snakes" could be a nice metaphor for Voldemort.
In medieval bestiaries, the basilisk was represented as a snake wearing a crown, worshiped by his snakes subjects. When I read this, it reminds me of Nagini's attitude of course but also the one of the DEs, crawling on the ground for kissing his robes. In those bestiaries, the basilisk was fought by the lion (Harry comes to mind at once) and the dragon.
What do you think?
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Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 2:08 am (#1042 of 1121)
Chapter 16 - Through the Trapdoor
- Another reference to Harry's dreams: in his dreams he sees "a hooded figure dripping blood" and "The idea of Voldemort certainly scared them [Hermione and Ron], but he didn't keep visiting them in dreams".
- In the last chapters, there were several references to werewolves which I find curious: in chapter 12, in DADA class they are "copying down different ways of treating werewolf bites", in chapter 15, Draco says that there are werewolves in the Forbidden Forest, and about their History of Magic exam, Hermione says: "I needn't have learnt about the 1637 Werewolf Code of Conduct".
- When the trio leaves the Common Room after Hermione jinxed Neville, there is this sentence: "But leaving Neville lying motionless on the floor didn't feel like a very good omen". Neville is in a dead position, as is Harry at the beginning of each book, at a time when he begins to show his real strength and character.
- Another reference to blood: Peeves calls the Bloody Baron, "your bloodiness, Mr baron, sir".
- There are 7 tests/traps before getting the Philosopher's Stone, a highly symbolic journey if there is one!
* 1 - Fluffy (Hagrid's test). Harry plays the flute first, and then Hermione does, together they create the harmony (Harry+Hermione=harmony as pointed by Hollywand) needed for passing Cerberus. The analogy Nathan mentioned with Cerberus is great: he was meant to be charmed by a lyre and they find a harp on the floor, used by Quirrel before. After passing Fluffy, they are underground ("we must be miles under the school"): the journey is part of the Nigredo process.
2 - Devil's snare (Sprout's test). Very symbolical too: it has "snake-like tendrils", it "likes the dark and the damp" and can be fought thanks to light and warmth. Hermione conjures the same blue flames that she already did twice (during a break in winter and during the first Quidditch match). This could associate her with truth as well.
3 - The Windged keys (Flitwick's test). The right key is silver with bright blue wings.
4 - The chessboard (McGonagall's test). It is the symbol of the order of the world and of its laws. They become 3 black pieces and will have to go from the black to the white side of the board, a very interesting alchemical symbol. Harry is a Bishop: interesting when you know that in French, thie piece is called "the fool", another connection with this Tarot card?
5 - The troll (Quirrel's test), again his disgusting smell is mentioned.
6 - The potions (Snape's test). 7 bottles, 4 clues. Harry goes on, Hermione goes back (the couple of opposites symbolism). I won't say again what we already said about the potions. She goes through the purple fire (DD's colour, safety). Harry goes through the black fire for his second encounter with Voldemort, what a great symbol for his journey!
7 - The Mirror of Erised (DD's test), the golden framed mirror after the silver key.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 4:33 am (#1043 of 1121)
I'm inclined to believe that Voldemort's animagus form would be a snake. He is so proud of his Slytherin lineage and would naturally want to be associated with all things Slytherin. I imagine a young Tom Riddle having anxiety attacks at the shock of him transforming into an eagle during his 6th year Transfiguration class!
(Why do I get this mental picture of Kaa, the snake from the Jungle Book, when I think about Voldemort's animagus?!)
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Elanor,I'm inclined to believe that purple is the color of danger rather than safety because of Quirrel's purple turban and Harry's suffocating purple cloak dream. I'm concerned about DD and Hermione's safety because of this color reference but I bet that's just me.
Harry goes through the black fire to get to the stone room. Another confirmation that Harry MUST go through Nigredo in order to attain the stone.
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Hollywand, the potion-dream transformation connection is wonderful. One alters the body, the other alters the psyche.
About Death-Sleep being twins, well the gods of Death and Sleep are twin brothers, Thanatos and Hypnos. Their mother is Nyx (Night). The god of Dreams, Morpheus, is Hypnos' son. The two brothers live in a dark cave by the river Lethe ("Oblivion"). Hypnos had two other sons -- Phobetor (animals) & Phantasus (animated object). Sleeping, dreaming, and dying -- one big family affair for them
More on Hypnos:
"Hypnos delivers mortals from pain and mental suffering, with the help of his sons and his brother Oniros (Dream) he colours their sleep with dreams. Hypnos opens two gates, the Gates of Horn and Ivory, through which Oniros comes into the minds of men. Through the Gates of Horn come prophetic dreams, and through the Gates of Ivory come deceptive dreams which mislead."
Gates of Ivory somehow sounds like it’s a part of the …um… “ivory tower”. Doesn’t that term mean the someone’s not in touch with reality? I'm sure I've heard that phrase before...
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 7:20 am (#1044 of 1121)
Congratulations to Elanor and Archangel. These last two posts are just brilliant. What a pleasure to read. I wish we could bring all this information together for a wider audience. Wonderful.
You are correct, Archangel, the ivory tower is academia, and the trio enters the ivory tower at the beginning of each school year.
Hornbeam. Krum's wand is Hornbeam with dragonstring heart. Could he be a part of Book Six?
I am also intrigued by your remarks about the "King" snake---the King cobra has a small spot on its head the Egyptians thought of as a crown. Staring down a six foot snake that is capable of rising three feet in the air would definitely make me see visions of the gods. It is interesting to connect this to your comments about dragons thought to have a third eye, whose force can only be collected when it's alive. That detail seems to hint at another possible use of dragon's blood/energy, and Krum at first wounds his dragon in the eye, whilst Harry talks his dragon into flying.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 9:33 am (#1045 of 1121)
The first, fourth, sixth and seventh barriers protecting the PS were provided by members of the OotP.
The sum total of these numbers equals 18 a multiple of 3
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Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 12:19 pm (#1046 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody!
Archangel, what you said about the purple colour gave me food for thought and I made further researches about its symbolism. Purple is a mixing of red and blue and traditionally symbolises spirituality. It also represents the union of wisdom and love (that's why I thought it fitted very well with DD). But it also means meditation, penitence, contemplation and atonement.
So why is Quirrel's turban purple? Because sharing his head with Voldemort is already a deadly punishment for his foolishness?
The purple fire could mean that meditation is needed for solving the riddle. What do you think?
About the black fire Harry has to get through, I do agree with you: Another confirmation that Harry MUST go through Nigredo in order to attain the stone. And not only for this journey but also as the first step of his great quest that will finish in book 7.
The remarks about Death and Sleep twins are brilliant!
Hollywand, I loved the connections with Krum! Remember that the basilisk, the King of Snakes, is fought by the lion and the dragon? If Harry is the Lion, Krum could be the dragon, doesn't he?
Nathan, it is interesting indeed that we see a lot of members of the OotP protecting the Stone. DD's test is the 7th and the last one. Hogwarts' teachers follow him as one man (well, Quirrel excepted of course). It certainly reinforces the fact that they all trust him and that he can rely on them. Actually, only Quirrel's test was rather simplistic, the other ones were elaborate and required great skills of magic, intelligence or talent to be done.
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dizzy lizzy - Jan 25, 2005 2:31 pm (#1047 of 1121)
May I quickly just congratulate all of you for a very interesting thread?
When I first came to the forum, this thread was very much like trying to read something very difficult, dense and obtuse because it was to me.
As I read the chat thread first when I log in, and then hit the "read new" button until there is no more new posts, I often get this thread up the top of the list.
Over the past three months I have read some lovely well constructed posted that start to make more and more sense and I can follow most of them now.
I am not the sort of person to dig that deeply into the HP books and its parallels (?), with alchemy, mythology etc, but it has certainly got me thinking how I view these books. Now that I realise that the HP books and others are often written on more than one level (either intentionally or not) it has made life a lot more interesting when re reading some of my favourite books.
Thanks for a great thread. keep it up.
Lizzy
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 4:42 pm (#1048 of 1121)
Lizzy, Thank You that is high praise indeed.
Elanor, the simplistic nature of Quirrell's barrier seems to me indicate a regression away from enlightenment that has as its root cause the possession Quirrell's body and to a certain extent his mind by Voldemort.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 5:15 pm (#1049 of 1121)
Elanor, the dragon and lion vs basilisk connection is wonderful. Did JKR say in any of her interviews that we'll see Krum back in the series? I really hope he gets more page time because of all these new connections we have found!
Krum and Harry tied for the highest marks in the dragon task in GoF. Viktor goes at the dragon head-on by attacking its weakest spot, the eyes, and the dragon ends up killing one of its young in anguish and anger. Harry, on the other hand, coaxes the dragon into leaving its comfort zone and even though he got to the egg the fastest, he was injured in his attempt.
Same goal, different approaches. Viktor is like a professional hitman in his approach to me -- you know, get in, get the egg, get out -- no frills, no unnecessary fluff. Someone gets hurt, sorry about that, that's part of the job attitude. Harry, on the other hand, is non-confrontational. He favors an indirect/more creative way of accomplishing the task. Maybe it's because he knows how the dragon's feeling, etc. and he cares about that. He gets his goal but he also gets hurt and that's troublesome for me.
Also interesting in that task, Harry thought the dragon was just another ugly opponent he must beat and likened the task to another Quidditch match. Quidditch, of course, is full of alchemical references.
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Welcome to the thread Lizzy! Thank you for your very kind words!
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 5:22 pm (#1050 of 1121)
dizzy lizzy, thanks for your kind words. It's gratifying to know that others are enjoying the discussion!!! I find it's greatly enriched my own enjoyment of the Potter series, and I love to see the way others' thoughts are woven together into a thread. I believe we have hit on a very elegant underlying theme. Welcome.
Elanor, thanks for your reply about Victor Krum and the dragon. I am intrigued that the dragons described by Jo (well, Newt Scamader) run through the processes of Alchemy: copper, lead, tin, silver, gold, mercury. And then there's the dragon reserve in the cold north----I can just see Harry and Krum racing through the dragon reserve looking to capture the bird the snitch is based upon. Brooms flying through the air, dangerously close to the flames of the dragons. Yes!
Krum could indeed be a dragon figure. Cedric was, the black dragon, the Hufflepuff, the peer who brings Harry through another sort of Nigredo. A dragon is a creature between the snake and the phoenix, a dinosaur, not quite bird yet, and evolved differently than the legless reptile, crawling on its belly.
Archangel's analogy about the different world views symbolized by the snake and phoenix are salient here; (I know I won't get this completely right): the snake feels the phoenix too arrogant (and doesn't this describe Snape's feelings toward Harry) The phoenix blinds the Balisk (ambition blinds the snake). These attitudes are laid out by Rowling in the text regarding Slytherin's view versus Gryffindor's view; a fitting metaphor.
The other that intrigues me are the water/sea analogies. Hermione's patronus is a water weasel, would be the enemy of the snake, if Krum's a sea eagle, would also be the enemy of the sea snake. Scamander does lay out clues regarding Merpeople, Dumbledore speaks mermish, etc....Azkaban, I believe is located on an island out to sea. Something's brewin'
One egg must be immersed in water before the message can be deciphered, and Harry must take a bath, consume Gillyweed and grow gills to save Ron, Krum transforms into a meat eating predator fish......
I wish I could be more help with the colour clues and the violet. I have been thinking of spectral colour, so I associate Hermione's blue flame with an especially hot fire, violet with ultra violet rays, that would be extremely high frequency and not visible but deadly....I'm not much use in that department.....
Quirrel became the Nigredo if we consider the fact that he went from a poessessed Janus figure to dead......poor chap.......
Elanor, do you think Hermione will become a werewolf?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It's actually interesting that Voldemort the Snake used Albania, the Realm of Eagles, as his haven during his vapor days. Now that I think about it, could Durmstrang be located in Albania? It's near the Adriatic Sea so travelling by ship to London seems to be more likely.
More on Viktor Krum and the possibility of him being part of royal lineage... I never gave his surname that much thought so when I "Googled" it, guess what I found -- there's a Bulgarian ruler named Krum!
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Solitaire - Jan 22, 2005 10:51 pm (#1027 of 1121)
Bringing the Nibelungenlied into the story is interesting. Can the Gringotts Goblins be compared to the Nibelungs? Something about their gold deep in the earth reminds me of the vaults in Gringotts. Isn't it guarded by dragons?
I suppose, too, the House-elves could be compared to the Nibelungs, in that they labor beneath the houses, castles, etc., that they serve. There is even a treacherous Nibelung who is killed. Could this be a counterpart to Kreacher? Does it bode ill for him? (Note the similar spelling of treachery and Kreacher. Well, they look similar to me.)
Okay, I'll stop now.
Solitaire
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 2:46 am (#1028 of 1121)
Aren't Nibelung like the royal family in the story? IIRC, it was a dwarf that created the ring that *everybody* wanted. I must confess I haven't paid much attention to this work since when I was in HS our teacher made us choose which work we'd like to discuss -- it was this or LOTR. Our class choose the title that we could easily read.
Solitaire's post made me think what will happen to a person who manages to steal something from the goblins. I get this impression that no one's ever done it although obviously there have been attempts. (As I wrote this, the "Take My Breath Away" scene in Ocean's 11 flashed before my eyes! LOL)
I know this is just me but whenever I hear the word goblin, I usually think about "hemoglobin". Must be because they rhyme. Hehe
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Hollywand - Jan 23, 2005 3:07 am (#1029 of 1121)
I am stunned. These are fantastic connections! The background on Krum is brilliant, as are the connections with Gringotts! Bravo!!!
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 4:49 am (#1030 of 1121)
Just to wrap-up the Krum connections for today... the first time Harry saw Krum, he (Harry) thought Krum looked like an overgrown bird of prey and immediately noticed his hooked/aquiline nose. This certainly ties up to the folk story about Albania's emblem (Son of Eagle) and Khan Krum.
Notice too that Khan Krum's greatest achievement had something to do with uniting warring tribes. IF JKR got the Krum name from this famous ruler, Viktor might have a more significant role than just Hermione's *friend*. The name Viktor is the Slavic form of Victor, which means conqueror or victory. Hmmm... Victorious Viktor/Vindictive Viktor.
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Hollywand - Jan 23, 2005 7:34 am (#1031 of 1121)
The link you provided, Archangel, was fantastic. You are great at finding relevant reference material!
I especially loved the parts where Khan Krum pleads for peace and fairness, yet his adversaries reject his proposals, to their own destruction. Krum may be our Noble Dark Lord, a sea eagle animagus or Patronus.
The silver lined victory skull---a wonderful grotesque link to the story.
According to Mugglenet, Hermione and Krum share a kiss in the Goblet of Fire movies, and that's not in the text that I remember.....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 23, 2005 10:54 am (#1032 of 1121)
In re-reading chapter 15 I noticed a curious detail when Hagrid paired the students that were serving detention with him.
Neville, the son of an Auror was paired with Draco the son of a Death Eater. This is also a interesting demonstration of yin and yang in this pairing because, Neville is inherently courageous as is demonstrated in the Battle of the DoM while Draco is shown to be a coward as is demonstrated by his need to have Fang.
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Elanor - Jan 23, 2005 12:02 pm (#1033 of 1121)
Wow! You've been very busy. I had such a great time reading your posts everyone! Bravo! The connections with Krum are wonderful. I love the eagle connection: as a seeker he needs to have the eye of the eagle, doesn't he? There is so much to notice in that eagle/snake symbolism. Great work!
And I do agree with you Archangel, there is more in Herbology than meet the eye, as there is more in Neville than meet the eye as well BTW. Since this reread, I had never truly noticed the plants and potions mentioned in the books, but some serious references are hidden here and I think we have to keep our eyes opened for them.
I didn't log in before today because I took advantage of a quiet, cold and snowy day for finishing my reread of PS (but I'm sorry I missed that great discussion "in live", though most of it must have been in the middle of the night for me, come to think of it!). I took a lot of notes, so this is for Chapter 15- The Forbidden Forest first.
- Hour-glasses record the house points, not any clock. This is important because the hourglass is an interesting symbol, the symbol of the inexorable way time goes by. Chronos is represented with an hourglass. As it has to be turned upside down from time to time, it is the symbol of a cycle, a circle again.
- Harry says that he "would have gambled twelve Philosopher's stones that Snape had just left the room". 12 again!
- The detention takes place at 11 p.m., a hint to danger again.
- The unicorn blood is silvery. Later it is also described as "silver blue". The dead unicorn was found "last Wednesday", Mercury day, hence a connection with quicksilver? This would be logical since in alchemy, the unicorn represents Mercury that has to be united to the lion (sulfur) for making the philosopher's gold. It is also an androgynous symbol, as Mercury is. Another detail: on the Great-Britain crest, the lion symbolizes England and the Unicorn Scotland.
- The centaurs keep saying that Mars is bright, unusually bright, symbol of war to come. Firenze's head "was dappled silver in the moonlight", another reference to the connection between silver and the Moon.
- Firenze's eyes are described as "astonishing blue eyes". The symbolism of the colour blue is very interesting. It means disregard of the soul for what is material, wisdom and, above all, truth.
- I won't say again what we already said about the dark forest symbolism, but just that the references to darkness and silence are omnipresent.
- There is another reference to iron: "It was as though an iron fist had clenched suddenly around Harry's heart". The metal of Mars, the metal of war...
Oh my! I have been very long-winded, I will write about the other chapters later or tomorrow. Sorry for the length!
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Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 6:38 pm (#1034 of 1121)
Hermione kisses Krum... shouldn't it be vice versa?!?! Hollywand, your post certainly woke me up today!
Nathan, me thinks a Draco-Neville showdown is inevitable with the White Queen, Bella, as the catalyst.
Elanor, I know what you mean. I really believe JKR is hiding/dropping her clues in an off-hand kind of way that we, as readers, wouldn't really give that much thought during our first/second reads like Hermione's eihwaz/ehwaz mix-up, Trelawney's predictions, and of course the Dobby "can't tell you" clues. Why not in plants and potions? Great sleuthing as usual!
I remembered your post in the Flamel thread about Voldemort being unable to attain the stone because it requires humanity that he doesn't have. The blood of the unicorn robbed him of this and it is only fitting that the blood is silver. Isn't it that silver is the precursor of gold in alchemy? Voldemort got stuck in his quest because of his own doing!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 23, 2005 9:09 pm (#1035 of 1121)
Archangel, I agree the idea some point that could prove to be most fascinating.
Also, this thought just occurred to me four of the staff wwho provided a barrier to protect the stone are members of the Order of the Phoenix. It makes me wonder whether Flitwick and Sprout are as well.
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Archangel - Jan 24, 2005 3:34 am (#1036 of 1121)
Hmmm... they should be unless DD has a good reason why he doesn't want his whole staff affiliated with the order like security and continuity reasons just in case he doesn't make it. In other words, I'm not totally set on them being members but they're surely sympathetic to the cause.
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Just to go off-tangent here...
"Draught of the Living Death" -- Is this what Snape was referring to when he mentioned putting a stopper in death? According to the Lex, this potions causes one to fall into a deep sleep (a la Juliet in Romeo & Juliet). Harry's dreams have always been harbingers and of course, there's that wonderful line from the PoA movie about dreams being a world entirely owned by the dreamer (OK, I butchered the line.). I'm thinking that with this potion, JKR could very well take us into this realm and give us an extraordinary setting for a battle, journey, training or what-have-you.
Does Voldemort dream or even sleep in his current state/being?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 24, 2005 4:46 am (#1037 of 1121)
"- Firenze's eyes are described as "astonishing blue eyes". The symbolism of the colour blue is very interesting. It means disregard of the soul for what is material, wisdom and, above all, truth."
I find it interesting that Dumbledore's eyes are also blue.
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Hollywand - Jan 24, 2005 7:53 am (#1038 of 1121)
Archangel, your post on the Hermione/Krum made me laugh. I wrote, "They share a kiss". I would bet that Krum is the, um, shall we say, Seeker, in the action since Rowling has written Krum to be smitten by Hermione.
Another thought on Krum symbolism. If he wears the double headed eagle, of Albania, he is also yet another Janus figure. The red icon on his shirt indicates a link with the colors of the cinnabar bird as well.
*********************************** It's interesting that Potions and Dreams are brought together at this juncture of the discussion.
Potions tranform the body, diminishing, healing or shape changing; Dreams transform the mind in a metaphor analogous to a potion.
I have always wondered if the task Dumbledore asks Severus to perfom, which makes him grow pale, is the preparation of a potion and not a spy journey. Dumbledore may be asking Severus to begin making the Draught of Death, part of his plan B to sheild Harry from Voldemort.
It's interesting that in Harry's dreams, Hermione urges Harry to go farther than he wants to go (give Cho the Firebolt) when she often restrains him in reality.
Harry encounters Voldemort on the common ground of dreams.Harry is drawn to his Voldemort dreams in a similar attraction to the Veil.
And the Greeks describe Death and Sleep as twins. Hmmmm.
I don't recall that we are given enough information to speculate on Voldemort's dreams, only his poessession of Nagini.
Sibyll is linked to comically to dream interpretaion, and linked to foretelling the future. Hmmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 24, 2005 9:04 am (#1039 of 1121)
Great thoughts about dreams Hollywand! An alchemist of the Antiquity, Zozime of Panopolis, was saying that, in dreams, the self, that is to say the centre of the psyche (which means soul in Greek), was expressing itself and that it was showing the way the dreamer had to follow. Interesting if we connect this to what you said: "Hermione urges Harry to go farther than he wants to go (give Cho the Firebolt) when she often restrains him in reality", don't you think so?
TBE, it's good to see you here again! And I do agree, this symbolism fits very well with DD too. In PS, DD says that about the truth: "The truth. Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." and then "I shall not, of course, lie." DD doesn't lie and his eyes say the same thing.
"The Draught if the Living Death", yes, I think you're right and that it will appear again in the story. It could be also a trick to make Harry believe one of his friends is dead and therefore make him dashing for danger. Hmm...
Archangel: I remembered your post in the Flamel thread about Voldemort being unable to attain the stone because it requires humanity that he doesn't have. The blood of the unicorn robbed him of this and it is only fitting that the blood is silver. Isn't it that silver is the precursor of gold in alchemy? Voldemort got stuck in his quest because of his own doing!
In fact,if the process of the Philosopher's Stone stops at the end of the Albedo process, the alchemist will have a stone that will allow him to turn every metal into silver. Only the Stone obtained after the Rubedo process can turn metals into gold, and give the Elixir of Life. So, I think his lack of humanity would have stuck Voldemort in the Albedo process literally, if he tried to create the stone (which he certainly did, IMO) and symbolically as well. BTW, I loved your answer on that thread: "upon reading your post about Voldemort getting his pale hands on the manuscript, I suddenly formed this mental picture of him going through the list and ticking the requisites one by one until he comes to the last item, "Requires Humanity", and goes off screaming "DRAT! I WAS THIS CLOSE!". LOL!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 24, 2005 11:56 am (#1040 of 1121)
Archangel, your ealier post about Albania being the land of the eagles presented series of thought provoking observations.
Point 1: Could Voldemort be an animagus with his form being some form of eagle?
Point 2: Voldemort seems to be because of his stature generally indifferent to the witches and wizards he believes are less powerful or are in some other way inferior to him much liike an eagle does not fear smaller birds.
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Elanor - Jan 24, 2005 12:36 pm (#1041 of 1121)
Interesting idea Nathan, but I still think the basilisk represents Voldemort better. Basilisks were known to be the kings of snakes and I can't help but think that this "King of Snakes" could be a nice metaphor for Voldemort.
In medieval bestiaries, the basilisk was represented as a snake wearing a crown, worshiped by his snakes subjects. When I read this, it reminds me of Nagini's attitude of course but also the one of the DEs, crawling on the ground for kissing his robes. In those bestiaries, the basilisk was fought by the lion (Harry comes to mind at once) and the dragon.
What do you think?
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Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 2:08 am (#1042 of 1121)
Chapter 16 - Through the Trapdoor
- Another reference to Harry's dreams: in his dreams he sees "a hooded figure dripping blood" and "The idea of Voldemort certainly scared them [Hermione and Ron], but he didn't keep visiting them in dreams".
- In the last chapters, there were several references to werewolves which I find curious: in chapter 12, in DADA class they are "copying down different ways of treating werewolf bites", in chapter 15, Draco says that there are werewolves in the Forbidden Forest, and about their History of Magic exam, Hermione says: "I needn't have learnt about the 1637 Werewolf Code of Conduct".
- When the trio leaves the Common Room after Hermione jinxed Neville, there is this sentence: "But leaving Neville lying motionless on the floor didn't feel like a very good omen". Neville is in a dead position, as is Harry at the beginning of each book, at a time when he begins to show his real strength and character.
- Another reference to blood: Peeves calls the Bloody Baron, "your bloodiness, Mr baron, sir".
- There are 7 tests/traps before getting the Philosopher's Stone, a highly symbolic journey if there is one!
* 1 - Fluffy (Hagrid's test). Harry plays the flute first, and then Hermione does, together they create the harmony (Harry+Hermione=harmony as pointed by Hollywand) needed for passing Cerberus. The analogy Nathan mentioned with Cerberus is great: he was meant to be charmed by a lyre and they find a harp on the floor, used by Quirrel before. After passing Fluffy, they are underground ("we must be miles under the school"): the journey is part of the Nigredo process.
2 - Devil's snare (Sprout's test). Very symbolical too: it has "snake-like tendrils", it "likes the dark and the damp" and can be fought thanks to light and warmth. Hermione conjures the same blue flames that she already did twice (during a break in winter and during the first Quidditch match). This could associate her with truth as well.
3 - The Windged keys (Flitwick's test). The right key is silver with bright blue wings.
4 - The chessboard (McGonagall's test). It is the symbol of the order of the world and of its laws. They become 3 black pieces and will have to go from the black to the white side of the board, a very interesting alchemical symbol. Harry is a Bishop: interesting when you know that in French, thie piece is called "the fool", another connection with this Tarot card?
5 - The troll (Quirrel's test), again his disgusting smell is mentioned.
6 - The potions (Snape's test). 7 bottles, 4 clues. Harry goes on, Hermione goes back (the couple of opposites symbolism). I won't say again what we already said about the potions. She goes through the purple fire (DD's colour, safety). Harry goes through the black fire for his second encounter with Voldemort, what a great symbol for his journey!
7 - The Mirror of Erised (DD's test), the golden framed mirror after the silver key.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 4:33 am (#1043 of 1121)
I'm inclined to believe that Voldemort's animagus form would be a snake. He is so proud of his Slytherin lineage and would naturally want to be associated with all things Slytherin. I imagine a young Tom Riddle having anxiety attacks at the shock of him transforming into an eagle during his 6th year Transfiguration class!
(Why do I get this mental picture of Kaa, the snake from the Jungle Book, when I think about Voldemort's animagus?!)
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Elanor,I'm inclined to believe that purple is the color of danger rather than safety because of Quirrel's purple turban and Harry's suffocating purple cloak dream. I'm concerned about DD and Hermione's safety because of this color reference but I bet that's just me.
Harry goes through the black fire to get to the stone room. Another confirmation that Harry MUST go through Nigredo in order to attain the stone.
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Hollywand, the potion-dream transformation connection is wonderful. One alters the body, the other alters the psyche.
About Death-Sleep being twins, well the gods of Death and Sleep are twin brothers, Thanatos and Hypnos. Their mother is Nyx (Night). The god of Dreams, Morpheus, is Hypnos' son. The two brothers live in a dark cave by the river Lethe ("Oblivion"). Hypnos had two other sons -- Phobetor (animals) & Phantasus (animated object). Sleeping, dreaming, and dying -- one big family affair for them
More on Hypnos:
"Hypnos delivers mortals from pain and mental suffering, with the help of his sons and his brother Oniros (Dream) he colours their sleep with dreams. Hypnos opens two gates, the Gates of Horn and Ivory, through which Oniros comes into the minds of men. Through the Gates of Horn come prophetic dreams, and through the Gates of Ivory come deceptive dreams which mislead."
Gates of Ivory somehow sounds like it’s a part of the …um… “ivory tower”. Doesn’t that term mean the someone’s not in touch with reality? I'm sure I've heard that phrase before...
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 7:20 am (#1044 of 1121)
Congratulations to Elanor and Archangel. These last two posts are just brilliant. What a pleasure to read. I wish we could bring all this information together for a wider audience. Wonderful.
You are correct, Archangel, the ivory tower is academia, and the trio enters the ivory tower at the beginning of each school year.
Hornbeam. Krum's wand is Hornbeam with dragonstring heart. Could he be a part of Book Six?
I am also intrigued by your remarks about the "King" snake---the King cobra has a small spot on its head the Egyptians thought of as a crown. Staring down a six foot snake that is capable of rising three feet in the air would definitely make me see visions of the gods. It is interesting to connect this to your comments about dragons thought to have a third eye, whose force can only be collected when it's alive. That detail seems to hint at another possible use of dragon's blood/energy, and Krum at first wounds his dragon in the eye, whilst Harry talks his dragon into flying.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 9:33 am (#1045 of 1121)
The first, fourth, sixth and seventh barriers protecting the PS were provided by members of the OotP.
The sum total of these numbers equals 18 a multiple of 3
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Elanor - Jan 25, 2005 12:19 pm (#1046 of 1121)
Great thoughts everybody!
Archangel, what you said about the purple colour gave me food for thought and I made further researches about its symbolism. Purple is a mixing of red and blue and traditionally symbolises spirituality. It also represents the union of wisdom and love (that's why I thought it fitted very well with DD). But it also means meditation, penitence, contemplation and atonement.
So why is Quirrel's turban purple? Because sharing his head with Voldemort is already a deadly punishment for his foolishness?
The purple fire could mean that meditation is needed for solving the riddle. What do you think?
About the black fire Harry has to get through, I do agree with you: Another confirmation that Harry MUST go through Nigredo in order to attain the stone. And not only for this journey but also as the first step of his great quest that will finish in book 7.
The remarks about Death and Sleep twins are brilliant!
Hollywand, I loved the connections with Krum! Remember that the basilisk, the King of Snakes, is fought by the lion and the dragon? If Harry is the Lion, Krum could be the dragon, doesn't he?
Nathan, it is interesting indeed that we see a lot of members of the OotP protecting the Stone. DD's test is the 7th and the last one. Hogwarts' teachers follow him as one man (well, Quirrel excepted of course). It certainly reinforces the fact that they all trust him and that he can rely on them. Actually, only Quirrel's test was rather simplistic, the other ones were elaborate and required great skills of magic, intelligence or talent to be done.
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dizzy lizzy - Jan 25, 2005 2:31 pm (#1047 of 1121)
May I quickly just congratulate all of you for a very interesting thread?
When I first came to the forum, this thread was very much like trying to read something very difficult, dense and obtuse because it was to me.
As I read the chat thread first when I log in, and then hit the "read new" button until there is no more new posts, I often get this thread up the top of the list.
Over the past three months I have read some lovely well constructed posted that start to make more and more sense and I can follow most of them now.
I am not the sort of person to dig that deeply into the HP books and its parallels (?), with alchemy, mythology etc, but it has certainly got me thinking how I view these books. Now that I realise that the HP books and others are often written on more than one level (either intentionally or not) it has made life a lot more interesting when re reading some of my favourite books.
Thanks for a great thread. keep it up.
Lizzy
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 4:42 pm (#1048 of 1121)
Lizzy, Thank You that is high praise indeed.
Elanor, the simplistic nature of Quirrell's barrier seems to me indicate a regression away from enlightenment that has as its root cause the possession Quirrell's body and to a certain extent his mind by Voldemort.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 5:15 pm (#1049 of 1121)
Elanor, the dragon and lion vs basilisk connection is wonderful. Did JKR say in any of her interviews that we'll see Krum back in the series? I really hope he gets more page time because of all these new connections we have found!
Krum and Harry tied for the highest marks in the dragon task in GoF. Viktor goes at the dragon head-on by attacking its weakest spot, the eyes, and the dragon ends up killing one of its young in anguish and anger. Harry, on the other hand, coaxes the dragon into leaving its comfort zone and even though he got to the egg the fastest, he was injured in his attempt.
Same goal, different approaches. Viktor is like a professional hitman in his approach to me -- you know, get in, get the egg, get out -- no frills, no unnecessary fluff. Someone gets hurt, sorry about that, that's part of the job attitude. Harry, on the other hand, is non-confrontational. He favors an indirect/more creative way of accomplishing the task. Maybe it's because he knows how the dragon's feeling, etc. and he cares about that. He gets his goal but he also gets hurt and that's troublesome for me.
Also interesting in that task, Harry thought the dragon was just another ugly opponent he must beat and likened the task to another Quidditch match. Quidditch, of course, is full of alchemical references.
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Welcome to the thread Lizzy! Thank you for your very kind words!
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 5:22 pm (#1050 of 1121)
dizzy lizzy, thanks for your kind words. It's gratifying to know that others are enjoying the discussion!!! I find it's greatly enriched my own enjoyment of the Potter series, and I love to see the way others' thoughts are woven together into a thread. I believe we have hit on a very elegant underlying theme. Welcome.
Elanor, thanks for your reply about Victor Krum and the dragon. I am intrigued that the dragons described by Jo (well, Newt Scamader) run through the processes of Alchemy: copper, lead, tin, silver, gold, mercury. And then there's the dragon reserve in the cold north----I can just see Harry and Krum racing through the dragon reserve looking to capture the bird the snitch is based upon. Brooms flying through the air, dangerously close to the flames of the dragons. Yes!
Krum could indeed be a dragon figure. Cedric was, the black dragon, the Hufflepuff, the peer who brings Harry through another sort of Nigredo. A dragon is a creature between the snake and the phoenix, a dinosaur, not quite bird yet, and evolved differently than the legless reptile, crawling on its belly.
Archangel's analogy about the different world views symbolized by the snake and phoenix are salient here; (I know I won't get this completely right): the snake feels the phoenix too arrogant (and doesn't this describe Snape's feelings toward Harry) The phoenix blinds the Balisk (ambition blinds the snake). These attitudes are laid out by Rowling in the text regarding Slytherin's view versus Gryffindor's view; a fitting metaphor.
The other that intrigues me are the water/sea analogies. Hermione's patronus is a water weasel, would be the enemy of the snake, if Krum's a sea eagle, would also be the enemy of the sea snake. Scamander does lay out clues regarding Merpeople, Dumbledore speaks mermish, etc....Azkaban, I believe is located on an island out to sea. Something's brewin'
One egg must be immersed in water before the message can be deciphered, and Harry must take a bath, consume Gillyweed and grow gills to save Ron, Krum transforms into a meat eating predator fish......
I wish I could be more help with the colour clues and the violet. I have been thinking of spectral colour, so I associate Hermione's blue flame with an especially hot fire, violet with ultra violet rays, that would be extremely high frequency and not visible but deadly....I'm not much use in that department.....
Quirrel became the Nigredo if we consider the fact that he went from a poessessed Janus figure to dead......poor chap.......
Elanor, do you think Hermione will become a werewolf?
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 1051 to 1075)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:18 am
Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 5:47 pm (#1051 of 1121)
OK this post is way OT but I couldn't resist because of this line from Hollywand's post:
"I can just see Harry and Krum racing through the dragon reserve looking to capture the bird the snitch is based upon."
This is unbelievable!!!!!!!!! I had a dream just like this!!! I've had this same dream thrice now!
Harry was ordered by Snape to catch all the snidgets as punishment. Harry sets off on his Firebolt and manages to catch all but one. He told Snape this and Snape tells him he will never set foot on the castle until he catches the last one. Harry pursues the last Snidget but everytime he's close, it always manages to fly away. Finally, Harry stopped chasing the snidget and just followed it. Out of nowhere, a blur came straight at him and he ducked just in time to see that blur was Krum and he has the snidget and told Harry to go back since the snidget was safe there with him. Harry looks down to see Krum and the snidget somehow magically transforms into Hermione! Then my sister woke me up to borrow the car keys! Rotten sister...
Me thinks Hypnos was playing tricks with me... wonder what gate he lead me through though... hehe
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 6:37 pm (#1052 of 1121)
Archangel, was your scar hurting at all? ;-) This could be serious.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 6:59 pm (#1053 of 1121)
No scar Hollywand! Although a visit to St. Mungo's is definitely needed.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 7:46 pm (#1054 of 1121)
Some observations on Harry's stay in the hospital wing.
Point 1: Fred and George attempted to send Harry a toilet seat could this foreshadowing the importance of the Girls Bathroom in CoS and bathroom in GoF.
Point 2: Hagrid's gift of the photo album to Harry provides him another link to his heritage.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 8:19 pm (#1055 of 1121)
I originally posted this as part of the post above but, the length was too long so I divided it into two posts.
The totals when the house point totals are first announced are as follows.
Gryiffindor has 312 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+1+2 = 6. Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13
The Tarot associations with the above equations are most interesting in the beginning
Gryffindor represents the Lovers, Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man and Slytherin symbolizes Death
As Dumbledore adds points to Gryffindor's total beginning with Ron's 50 points the totals evolved into the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Gryiffindor has 362 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+6+2 = 11. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
The Tarot associations with the above equations are most interesting with the addition of Ron's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that
Gryffindor represents either Strength or Justice dependeding on the Tarot deck being used. Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, Slytherin symbolizes Death.
The addition of Hermione's 50 points produced the following result:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Gryiffindor has 412 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+1+2 = 7. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
With the addition of Hermione's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that Gryffindor represents the Chariot, Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, and Slytherin symbolizes Death
Harry's 60 points brings the total to the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Gryiffindor has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
Interestingly at this point Gryffindor and Slytherin are in balance. With the addition of Harry's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that both Gryffindor and Slytherin represent Death. Hufflepuff still symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, and Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man.
Neville's 10 points brings the final total to the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13 Gryiffindor has 482 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+8+2 = 14.
With the addition of Neville's points Gryffindor's association is altered again with following result Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, Slytherin symbolizes Death, and Gryffindor represents the Temperance.
Neville's 10 points gives Gryffindor the advantage over Slytherin and allows Gryffindor to cross the bridge that the Death Card represents/
At the leaving feast Gryffindor is awarded 170 additional points When the digits from the points are totalled the following equation results 5+0+5+0+6+0+1+0 = 17. The number 17 is associated in the Tarot with major arcana card called the Star. It should be noted that one of the many meanings of The Star is hope.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 8:56 pm (#1056 of 1121)
Fantastic post Nathan!!!!!!!!!!
Strength Card: Ron "when the Strength card appears it represents not just physical strength but the ability to cope with extreme pressure and win through in the end"
Material temptations, jealousy/envy, pressure from Percy (um... former pet Scabbers), not to mention responsibilities as prefect, Gryffindor keeper... will Ron be able to stay true to his word and be a knight till the very end?
Chariot Card: Hermione "The Chariot symbolizes conflicts ending in victory, so advises sustained efforts if in a current struggle or facing one, as you will win in the end... this card also heralds unexpected good news and represents self reliance and belief in your own abilities"
Seriously, have they invented a spell that Hermione can't handle?!
Death Card: Harry "whilst The Death card can represent rather shocking or unexpected events or changes, they usually clear the way for a brand new start and a greater value for life itself... a time of transformation is another way of looking at this card"
Contrasting views on evolution (transformation) between the phoenix and the snake again! One welcomes it, the other detests it! This is the same view that Harry and Voldemort have towards death. One welcomes it (esp. in OoP!), while the other is fleeing from it.
Also, didn't DD say that to a well-organized mind death is just another adventure?
Temperance Card: Neville "when the Temperance card appears it symbolizes self-control, the ability to handle volatile factors and so bring about a positive result; this card heralds a time of harmonious relationships, peace and harmony a time to be enjoyed"
Self-control = Petrificus Totalus!? LOL This one is for the prophecy I think. Two boys that fulfilled the initial requirements of the prophecy -- back to back attacks from Harry and Neville might just prove to be Voldemort's ticket to Hades.
Star Card: 4 Students "Hope. Destiny. Opportunity."
I just remembered this but in their first train ride to Hogwarts, these 4 students had already been linked. Harry was with Ron, in came Hermione asking if they have seen a toad that belonged to Neville.
Nathan, 17 is also 8. The eighth card is Justice. This card also signifies balance. Is this because of the duality of their characters? Ron, Slytherinish Gryffindor, Hermione, Ravenclawish Gryffindor, Neville, Hufflepufflesque Gryffindor... of course, there's Harry, the true Gryffindor.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 9:10 pm (#1057 of 1121)
Archangel, you give too much praise indeed. Your post is highly insightful as well my compliments. I have a question about your post.
Could you clarify the meaning of this phrase: Star Card: 4 Students "Hope. Destiny. Opportunity."
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 1:20 am (#1058 of 1121)
Surely Nathan!
Star Card is associated to the 4 students that turned it around for Gryffindor -- Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville. What is amazing is that 3 of them have earlier earned the dislike of their House mates because of the dragon/out of bed incident that cost them 150 points. At the start of the feast, the Gryffindor House was down and the 3 were actually feeling guilty because they knew they were directly responsible for their weak showing. Yet, the amazing turnaround happened! Hope springs eternal
Also interesting is that the Gryffindor House P.H. (Pre Harry) has somewhat lagged behind Slytherin and Ravenclaw when it comes to Cup competitions. Gryffindor A. H. (After Harry) has won multiple House & Quidditch Cups!
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Elanor - Jan 26, 2005 1:38 am (#1059 of 1121)
Wow! Brilliant posts everybody! Bravo! There is so much to say that I don't know where to begin.(great dream BTW Archangel, LOL!)
First, thank you so much for your kind words Lizzy, that means a lot to me. And welcome to the thread!
Hollywand and Archangel, your remarks about the dragons were great. I do think that the link between the different breeds of dragons and the metals is very important. We will see them again, I have no doubt about that. About Hermione becoming a werewolf: I never thought about that before. What gave you that idea Hollywand? Have I missed some clues?
Great work about the house points and the tarot cards, Nathan and Archangel! About the Star Card and the 4 students: I think the important thing is that it is the strength of the 4 kids combined that made them win, as the 4 elements are 1. (On another thought, it also reminds me of the 3 musketeers who were 4 in reality and their motto: "one for all and all for one".) The Star card is the symbol of truth, it is the link between earth and heavens and it gives luck to men.
About the last chapter, The Man with Two Faces", this is what I noticed:
- The title of the chapter is important: "the man with two faces", this is the Janus symbol we keep meeting in the books expressed literally.
- Again, "the funny smell that seemed to come from Quirrel's turban is mentioned.
- The stone is "blood-red". This has nothing to do with chance: this is the color of life and the stone is meant to give eternal life to its owner.
- Voldemort is described having "glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils, like a snake", some characteristics he will always have.
- When Harry fights Quirrel/Voldemort, at the end, he "fell into blackness, down... down... down..., another great image of the nigredo process.
What I find the most interesting is that, when he wakes up, the first thing he sees is gold "Something gold was glinting just above him. A nice metaphor of the journey he has to make as well, from the darkness to the philosophical gold.
Then, he first believes it is the Snitch: hence another hint that our metaphor of the Harry's spiritual journey and the chase after the snitch is correct.
And he realizes it is not the snitch but a pair of glasses, DD's glasses, reminding me what we said about the glasses symbolism, the sharp look of the alchemist, who searches the secrets of nature and sees what is really important.
- Harry spent 3 days in the hospital wing before he woke up.
- DD says, smiling, that "The stone was really not such a wonderful thing", which reminds me of something that I read about the alchemist who, when he finally obtains the stone, realizes that the stone is not the most important thing, but that the journey his spirit made to create it was the real thing. When he realizes that his own inspiration is the real Philosopher's stone. I can't remember the exact quote for the moment but I will search.
- During the feast, "the green hangings became scarlet and the silver became gold", end of the first step of the story. Remember when we said that each book was a journey but also a part of a greater one, the one that will need 7 stages? I think this sentence is a great image of the end of the first book's journey. From green to red: from the green lion to the red lion is a huge alchemical symbol. From silver to gold: the end of the road for the alchemist.
Edit: hi Archangel! You posted when I was writing!
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 3:11 am (#1060 of 1121)
Bonjour Elanor! PS/SS seems to be the map/blueprint/skeleton of the series. The remaining books just have more details and more fun but the whole series has been plotted since Book 1.
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 7:27 am (#1061 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
"Gringotts is the safest place in the world fer anything yeh want ter keep safe -- 'cept maybe Hogwarts"
"They say there's a dragon guardin' the high security vaults. And then yeh gotta find yer way -- Gringotts is hundreds of miles under London, see. Deep under the Underground. Yeh'd die of hunger tryin' ter get out, even if yeh did manage ter get yer hands on summat."
Just going out of limb here, but could Gringotts and Hogwarts be connected in a subterranean level? "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" --sounds like a warning pretty much like "Beware of the Dog".
BTW, the Gringotts goblins wear uniforms that are scarlet and gold -- Gryffindor colors!
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 8:02 am (#1062 of 1121)
Hi Elanor! I must confess that when we there's a great discussion underway, I think, "Wake up, Elanor, wake up! Please join us!" Lucky for you I am just a tiny little bit of effluvia attached to a keyboard, huh? ;-)
Regarding Hermione turning into a werewolf: on the Hermione thread, some have speculated that her researches and references to the werewolf, and, her ability to call Lupin during the closing passages of the Prisoner of Azkaban foreshadow her transformation into a wolfette. Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe she is acting the part of the "grey Wolf metal", lead, whilst Lupin is in his werewolf form.
Elanor, the closing details you bring together in the Philosopher's stone are wonderful. The details are revealed right there in the summation passages. Great work---I think Jo would be very pleased; I hope so. I feel as if we have all discovered a great treasure, and we have.
Archangel, I have also wondered if Hogwarts is connected to other magical sites. Gringotts would be intriguing. I am relieved to know that the Goblins are dressed in red and gold---I worry that they may join Voldemort.
I wondered if Hogwarts may have passages to the Ministry of Magic. At one point, I was thinking that the underground chamber where Nick holds his Deathday Party may be connected to the Classical Arch of the Veil. Hey, I wonder if the Veil Arch has a companion symbolism to Thantos? Hmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 26, 2005 12:55 pm (#1063 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! That's why I do need a time-turner, do you think McGonagall would lend me one since you always have those brilliant discussions when it is about 3 or 4 a.m. here? On the other hand, it is always a pleasure to wake up and read the posts of the night in the morning, a fantastic way to begin the day!
About Hermione, I don't think it is very likely that she becomes a werewolf either but her knowledge will maybe help Lupin in the future, hence the hints about werewolves connected to her. This should eventually reinforce the symbolism of the Grey Wolf, the purification work.
Archangel, I agree that PS/SS is the skeleton of the series. Symbolically, everything is already here, or at least exists in embryo, ready to be developped. I can't wait to continue the reread, is the team ready to continue the hunt?
I often wondered about magical passages between Hogwarts and other places. If they exist, I bet they start in the dungeons. In medieval castles, there were always secrets passages allowing people to escape from it. Those passages always started in the dungeons and very often they ended in a forest, not far from the castle. I'm sure we have not discovered yet all the secrets the Forbidden Forest hides...
Hollywand, about "Thantos", are you refering to Thanatos, the character symbolizing Death in ancient Greece? A great idea!
About PS/SS, we found a lot of references to the number 12. I don't remember if we said it before (probably) but one think struck me at the end of the book: all of this happens when Harry is 11, which means in his 12th year! Another nice image, isn't it?
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 6:46 pm (#1064 of 1121)
You are correct, Elanor, the word should read Thanatos; my Greek is as feeble as my French! ;-)
The first years approach Hogwarts via a waterway, and Hagrid is their guide. It's interesting that Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with the baby Harry, and the first years. Above reproach.
The detail regarding Harry's years of progression are interesting as well.
In year one, the magic begins at eleven, and he moves toward twelve and the stone.
Year two he encounters Tom Riddle and the Chamber and moves toward 13. Rowling hints that we will return to the story line in Book Six.
Prisoner of Azkaban begins with 13 and the Grim---a suggestion of the death of Sirius in the numbers and symbolism of this book.
Fourteen, Voldemort is reincarnated.
Fifteen, the trick, the loss of Sirius.
Sixteen? I'm thinking that Harry will have had enough of running from Voldemort and progress to pursuit.
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Julie Aronson - Jan 26, 2005 7:27 pm (#1065 of 1121)
Hollywand,
Looking at your age list reminds me that in Book 6 Harry will be the same age as the memory of Tom Riddle. Maybe there's something there...I don't know. I feel a bit foggy tonight, but I thought I'd throw that into the mix.
Julie
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 8:03 pm (#1066 of 1121)
Julie, that's actually a great association with the alchemical metals. One of them is tin, another is silver. If Book Two can be thought of as a "ghost" image of Book Six, and Tom is a "memory or ghost of Voldemort" , the issues in Book Two will be intensified in Book Six as we approach the final confrontation.
Does that make sense?
Book Seven will be the book of Gold, as Harry attains his victory. In Book Six, Voldemort will be at his zenith. Chills.
Thanks for your contribution!
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 11:07 pm (#1067 of 1121)
Elanor, the escape routes point was excellent. I have thought about this and it would seem foolish if Hogwarts didn't have escape routes in the event the castle is captured.
In PoA, the Weasley twins told Harry that there are 7 passages that lead right into Hogsmeade. Filch knows 4 and so it's assumed that those ways are heavily guarded. One leads to the Whomping Willow presumably to the Shrieking Shack. One leads to Honeydukes. One is blocked.
Are the twins really sure that the 4 guarded passages lead to Hogsmeade?
Hollywand, wonderful observation on book 2&6's connection with Voldemort.
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Archangel - Jan 27, 2005 5:22 am (#1068 of 1121)
Just a crazy thought ...
I was reading OoP (again!), eating lots of Toblerone (again!!), and came across this passage which I'm sure you've read a lot:
"It contains a force that it at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all."
Could this possibly be Hope? Hope is the last thing to go, isn't it? It forces us to go on even if the task ahead is daunting. Harry went to MoM on the hope of rescuing Siruis in time. When Voldemort possessed him, he welcomed death hoping to be reunited with Sirius. It is hope that sustained him throughout his miserable and abusive stay with the Dursleys. Didn't he hope that a mysterious relative would someday save him?
Once hope is gone, what else is left? Nothing except darkness, doubts, and depression, right? I believe that this is what separates Harry from the rest apart from his ability to love and feel. He has this ability to believe that things will get better any second even if he's facing the most foul, most evil things in this world.
Boy, if this is correct, how perfectly would it tie with the Star Card reference that we have uncovered in this thread?
This closely parallels the Greek mythos about Pandora and her oh-so-famous box. Pandora was created by the gods. She was endowed with all the best things that the gods could offer. She was their punishment to mankind. She was sent to earth along with a jar and instructions that she must never open it. Gifted and cursed with curiosity, she opened the jar to have look at what it contains and out came all the most terrible things that the gods could conjure. She tried to close the jar but it was too late and mankind will never be the same again. When she managed to close it, all that was left was Hope.
It wasn't mentioned who was the god that thought Hope was the worst thing that he/she could ever give to mankind. He/She must be regretting that decision because it turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
How does this relate to alchemy? Well, the journey towards the Stone is full of trials and frustrations that it is easy to abandon the quest or be lead astray. As much as knowledge and hard work are necessary for the journey, having faith, hope, and love never hurt anyone. 
Apologies for the length and touchy-feely sentiment of the post.
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zelmia - Jan 27, 2005 7:34 am (#1069 of 1121)
Archangel, you shouldn't apologize for "touchy-feely" sentimental posts. You're not a machine, after all.
I just wanted to point out that the Twins said that there were 7 passages out of the Castle/Hogwarts - not 7 passages that lead to Hogsmeade. They indicated the one passage that they knew went to Hogsmeade: the one Harry took.
If we're thinking of escape routes, I would be interested to know where the other passages lead.
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Hollywand - Jan 27, 2005 9:07 am (#1070 of 1121)
Archangel, I echo Zelmia's statement. Having a rich internal life is a gift. Your post set me to thinking about the locked door again; the connection to Hope is very poetic.
Your post set me to thinking about Jo's remarks about what's important to her. She identifies herself as a Gryffindor, and says that she values courage above all. Perhaps here she simply unlocks the door, tells us the clue's answer, and here it is right before our prying eyes. ;-)
If we think to the source of the word courage, its root is in the Latin cor, for heart; it also refers to a greatness of spirit. Here, a sort of alchemical mystery, the heart and greatness of spirit are one concept. The body/spirit unified; the two that are mysteriously one.
Harry is a true Gryffindor, evidenced by his greatness of spirit, his heart of the lion, his courage, his golden heart. Gold a soft, but highly valued metal; silver the harder metal, to be sure, but less valuable.
Voldemort, though powerful, is only controlled by his fear which gives birth to nihilism and not hope.
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Elanor - Jan 27, 2005 1:32 pm (#1071 of 1121)
Beautiful posts,everybody. It was a great joy to read them. And I agree, you shouldn't apologize Archangel! Actually, I think you have put a finger on something very interesting. See the magic of this forum: I was exhausted and here I am, checking my books, being excited with what I found and eager to share it with you all!
Hope is one of the 3 theological virtues: hope (Spes), faith (Fides) and charity (Caritas, here meaning love). The symbols used to represent them were also used for representing Mercury, Sulfur and Salt! Here is the link with alchemy!
These 3 virtues were all daughters of Sophia (wisdom). So they are 3 but they are one also. And Harry possesses the 3 of them in his heart: faith in DD, in his friends, in what he believes is right; hope that never leaves him and charity, because his heart is full with compassion and love.
Charity, love, is what leads the other ones because everything rests on compassion, goodness and benevolence. It fits very well with DD too, don't you think so? No wonder that HE understands what is behind that door.
Besides, these 3 virtues are bound to the four cardinal virtues: courage, justice, wisdom and temperance, which means 7 virtues in all, 7 again! A curious thing about those 4 cardinal virtues: 2 of them have the same symbols as 2 of Hogwarts houses. There is maybe another symbol here:
Courage (Fortitudo) can be represented by a knight armour, a lion, a sword: Gryffindor comes to mind at once.
Wisdom (Prudentia, it means also caution and skill) is represented by a snake, a mirror, a torch, a coffin. Slytherin!
The 2 other virtues are:
Justice (Justitia), represented by scales, a square, the globe, a book of laws. Somehow, it reminds me of Ravenclaw.
Temperance (Temperantia, meaning moderation) is represented by 2 containers (for mixing water and wine), a camel, an elephant, an hourglass. It would fit with Hufflepuff.
What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 27, 2005 1:57 pm (#1072 of 1121)
A well done to all and a hearty welcome and well met to all those who have recently begun posting in the thead.
I should like to propose that a reading of CoS take place to see what new indications threads and clues may be discovered.
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Hollywand - Jan 27, 2005 5:05 pm (#1073 of 1121)
Bravo, Elanor. Fantastic post! A joy to read!
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Archangel - Jan 27, 2005 6:37 pm (#1074 of 1121)
I agree. Wonderful post Elanor! You found the alchemical connection of Hope and so much more! See I knew faith, hope, and love are all inter-connected somehow but you found the proof! I'm very impressed!
Zelmia, that's what I thought as well -- that the 7 passages are not just for Hogsmeade but out of Hogwarts in general. However, I'm not sure if the Weasley twins knew that and we're just convinced that the all the passages lead to Hogsmeade. I'm not sure about Harry though as his thoughts were interrupted.
"This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead ---
"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. "
7 is an important number in the series. After the fight in OoP, Harry's circle grew from 3 to 6 with the addition of Luna, Ginny, and Neville. I think we're going to see another member joining the group to complete the magic circle. Who? My guess is Viktor Krum. There I've said it. If I'm wrong, butterbeers and treacle tarts are on me.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 27, 2005 8:01 pm (#1075 of 1121)
Archangel, I agree that the group will evolve from a sextet to a septet. The idea that Krum will be the seventh figure has interesting possibilities. I was considering the possibilities that the seventh member could be Susan Bones.
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OK this post is way OT but I couldn't resist because of this line from Hollywand's post:
"I can just see Harry and Krum racing through the dragon reserve looking to capture the bird the snitch is based upon."
This is unbelievable!!!!!!!!! I had a dream just like this!!! I've had this same dream thrice now!
Harry was ordered by Snape to catch all the snidgets as punishment. Harry sets off on his Firebolt and manages to catch all but one. He told Snape this and Snape tells him he will never set foot on the castle until he catches the last one. Harry pursues the last Snidget but everytime he's close, it always manages to fly away. Finally, Harry stopped chasing the snidget and just followed it. Out of nowhere, a blur came straight at him and he ducked just in time to see that blur was Krum and he has the snidget and told Harry to go back since the snidget was safe there with him. Harry looks down to see Krum and the snidget somehow magically transforms into Hermione! Then my sister woke me up to borrow the car keys! Rotten sister...
Me thinks Hypnos was playing tricks with me... wonder what gate he lead me through though... hehe
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Hollywand - Jan 25, 2005 6:37 pm (#1052 of 1121)
Archangel, was your scar hurting at all? ;-) This could be serious.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 6:59 pm (#1053 of 1121)
No scar Hollywand! Although a visit to St. Mungo's is definitely needed.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 7:46 pm (#1054 of 1121)
Some observations on Harry's stay in the hospital wing.
Point 1: Fred and George attempted to send Harry a toilet seat could this foreshadowing the importance of the Girls Bathroom in CoS and bathroom in GoF.
Point 2: Hagrid's gift of the photo album to Harry provides him another link to his heritage.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 8:19 pm (#1055 of 1121)
I originally posted this as part of the post above but, the length was too long so I divided it into two posts.
The totals when the house point totals are first announced are as follows.
Gryiffindor has 312 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+1+2 = 6. Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13
The Tarot associations with the above equations are most interesting in the beginning
Gryffindor represents the Lovers, Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man and Slytherin symbolizes Death
As Dumbledore adds points to Gryffindor's total beginning with Ron's 50 points the totals evolved into the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Gryiffindor has 362 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+6+2 = 11. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
The Tarot associations with the above equations are most interesting with the addition of Ron's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that
Gryffindor represents either Strength or Justice dependeding on the Tarot deck being used. Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, Slytherin symbolizes Death.
The addition of Hermione's 50 points produced the following result:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Gryiffindor has 412 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+1+2 = 7. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
With the addition of Hermione's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that Gryffindor represents the Chariot, Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, and Slytherin symbolizes Death
Harry's 60 points brings the total to the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Gryiffindor has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13.
Interestingly at this point Gryffindor and Slytherin are in balance. With the addition of Harry's points Gryffindor's association is altered in such a way that both Gryffindor and Slytherin represent Death. Hufflepuff still symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, and Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man.
Neville's 10 points brings the final total to the following:
Hufflepuff has 352 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 3+5+2 = 10. Ravenclaw has 426 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+2+6 = 12. Slytherin has 472 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+7+2 = 13 Gryiffindor has 482 points, when those three numbers are added together the following equation results 4+8+2 = 14.
With the addition of Neville's points Gryffindor's association is altered again with following result Hufflepuff symbolizes the Wheeel of Fortune, Ravenclaw represents the Hanged Man, Slytherin symbolizes Death, and Gryffindor represents the Temperance.
Neville's 10 points gives Gryffindor the advantage over Slytherin and allows Gryffindor to cross the bridge that the Death Card represents/
At the leaving feast Gryffindor is awarded 170 additional points When the digits from the points are totalled the following equation results 5+0+5+0+6+0+1+0 = 17. The number 17 is associated in the Tarot with major arcana card called the Star. It should be noted that one of the many meanings of The Star is hope.
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Archangel - Jan 25, 2005 8:56 pm (#1056 of 1121)
Fantastic post Nathan!!!!!!!!!!
Strength Card: Ron "when the Strength card appears it represents not just physical strength but the ability to cope with extreme pressure and win through in the end"
Material temptations, jealousy/envy, pressure from Percy (um... former pet Scabbers), not to mention responsibilities as prefect, Gryffindor keeper... will Ron be able to stay true to his word and be a knight till the very end?
Chariot Card: Hermione "The Chariot symbolizes conflicts ending in victory, so advises sustained efforts if in a current struggle or facing one, as you will win in the end... this card also heralds unexpected good news and represents self reliance and belief in your own abilities"
Seriously, have they invented a spell that Hermione can't handle?!
Death Card: Harry "whilst The Death card can represent rather shocking or unexpected events or changes, they usually clear the way for a brand new start and a greater value for life itself... a time of transformation is another way of looking at this card"
Contrasting views on evolution (transformation) between the phoenix and the snake again! One welcomes it, the other detests it! This is the same view that Harry and Voldemort have towards death. One welcomes it (esp. in OoP!), while the other is fleeing from it.
Also, didn't DD say that to a well-organized mind death is just another adventure?
Temperance Card: Neville "when the Temperance card appears it symbolizes self-control, the ability to handle volatile factors and so bring about a positive result; this card heralds a time of harmonious relationships, peace and harmony a time to be enjoyed"
Self-control = Petrificus Totalus!? LOL This one is for the prophecy I think. Two boys that fulfilled the initial requirements of the prophecy -- back to back attacks from Harry and Neville might just prove to be Voldemort's ticket to Hades.
Star Card: 4 Students "Hope. Destiny. Opportunity."
I just remembered this but in their first train ride to Hogwarts, these 4 students had already been linked. Harry was with Ron, in came Hermione asking if they have seen a toad that belonged to Neville.
Nathan, 17 is also 8. The eighth card is Justice. This card also signifies balance. Is this because of the duality of their characters? Ron, Slytherinish Gryffindor, Hermione, Ravenclawish Gryffindor, Neville, Hufflepufflesque Gryffindor... of course, there's Harry, the true Gryffindor.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 25, 2005 9:10 pm (#1057 of 1121)
Archangel, you give too much praise indeed. Your post is highly insightful as well my compliments. I have a question about your post.
Could you clarify the meaning of this phrase: Star Card: 4 Students "Hope. Destiny. Opportunity."
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 1:20 am (#1058 of 1121)
Surely Nathan!
Star Card is associated to the 4 students that turned it around for Gryffindor -- Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville. What is amazing is that 3 of them have earlier earned the dislike of their House mates because of the dragon/out of bed incident that cost them 150 points. At the start of the feast, the Gryffindor House was down and the 3 were actually feeling guilty because they knew they were directly responsible for their weak showing. Yet, the amazing turnaround happened! Hope springs eternal
Also interesting is that the Gryffindor House P.H. (Pre Harry) has somewhat lagged behind Slytherin and Ravenclaw when it comes to Cup competitions. Gryffindor A. H. (After Harry) has won multiple House & Quidditch Cups!
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Elanor - Jan 26, 2005 1:38 am (#1059 of 1121)
Wow! Brilliant posts everybody! Bravo! There is so much to say that I don't know where to begin.(great dream BTW Archangel, LOL!)
First, thank you so much for your kind words Lizzy, that means a lot to me. And welcome to the thread!
Hollywand and Archangel, your remarks about the dragons were great. I do think that the link between the different breeds of dragons and the metals is very important. We will see them again, I have no doubt about that. About Hermione becoming a werewolf: I never thought about that before. What gave you that idea Hollywand? Have I missed some clues?
Great work about the house points and the tarot cards, Nathan and Archangel! About the Star Card and the 4 students: I think the important thing is that it is the strength of the 4 kids combined that made them win, as the 4 elements are 1. (On another thought, it also reminds me of the 3 musketeers who were 4 in reality and their motto: "one for all and all for one".) The Star card is the symbol of truth, it is the link between earth and heavens and it gives luck to men.
About the last chapter, The Man with Two Faces", this is what I noticed:
- The title of the chapter is important: "the man with two faces", this is the Janus symbol we keep meeting in the books expressed literally.
- Again, "the funny smell that seemed to come from Quirrel's turban is mentioned.
- The stone is "blood-red". This has nothing to do with chance: this is the color of life and the stone is meant to give eternal life to its owner.
- Voldemort is described having "glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils, like a snake", some characteristics he will always have.
- When Harry fights Quirrel/Voldemort, at the end, he "fell into blackness, down... down... down..., another great image of the nigredo process.
What I find the most interesting is that, when he wakes up, the first thing he sees is gold "Something gold was glinting just above him. A nice metaphor of the journey he has to make as well, from the darkness to the philosophical gold.
Then, he first believes it is the Snitch: hence another hint that our metaphor of the Harry's spiritual journey and the chase after the snitch is correct.
And he realizes it is not the snitch but a pair of glasses, DD's glasses, reminding me what we said about the glasses symbolism, the sharp look of the alchemist, who searches the secrets of nature and sees what is really important.
- Harry spent 3 days in the hospital wing before he woke up.
- DD says, smiling, that "The stone was really not such a wonderful thing", which reminds me of something that I read about the alchemist who, when he finally obtains the stone, realizes that the stone is not the most important thing, but that the journey his spirit made to create it was the real thing. When he realizes that his own inspiration is the real Philosopher's stone. I can't remember the exact quote for the moment but I will search.
- During the feast, "the green hangings became scarlet and the silver became gold", end of the first step of the story. Remember when we said that each book was a journey but also a part of a greater one, the one that will need 7 stages? I think this sentence is a great image of the end of the first book's journey. From green to red: from the green lion to the red lion is a huge alchemical symbol. From silver to gold: the end of the road for the alchemist.
Edit: hi Archangel! You posted when I was writing!
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 3:11 am (#1060 of 1121)
Bonjour Elanor!
PS/SS seems to be the map/blueprint/skeleton of the series. The remaining books just have more details and more fun but the whole series has been plotted since Book 1. - - - - - - - - - -
Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 7:27 am (#1061 of 1121)
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
"Gringotts is the safest place in the world fer anything yeh want ter keep safe -- 'cept maybe Hogwarts"
"They say there's a dragon guardin' the high security vaults. And then yeh gotta find yer way -- Gringotts is hundreds of miles under London, see. Deep under the Underground. Yeh'd die of hunger tryin' ter get out, even if yeh did manage ter get yer hands on summat."
Just going out of limb here, but could Gringotts and Hogwarts be connected in a subterranean level? "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" --sounds like a warning pretty much like "Beware of the Dog".
BTW, the Gringotts goblins wear uniforms that are scarlet and gold -- Gryffindor colors!
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 8:02 am (#1062 of 1121)
Hi Elanor! I must confess that when we there's a great discussion underway, I think, "Wake up, Elanor, wake up! Please join us!" Lucky for you I am just a tiny little bit of effluvia attached to a keyboard, huh? ;-)
Regarding Hermione turning into a werewolf: on the Hermione thread, some have speculated that her researches and references to the werewolf, and, her ability to call Lupin during the closing passages of the Prisoner of Azkaban foreshadow her transformation into a wolfette. Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe she is acting the part of the "grey Wolf metal", lead, whilst Lupin is in his werewolf form.
Elanor, the closing details you bring together in the Philosopher's stone are wonderful. The details are revealed right there in the summation passages. Great work---I think Jo would be very pleased; I hope so. I feel as if we have all discovered a great treasure, and we have.
Archangel, I have also wondered if Hogwarts is connected to other magical sites. Gringotts would be intriguing. I am relieved to know that the Goblins are dressed in red and gold---I worry that they may join Voldemort.
I wondered if Hogwarts may have passages to the Ministry of Magic. At one point, I was thinking that the underground chamber where Nick holds his Deathday Party may be connected to the Classical Arch of the Veil. Hey, I wonder if the Veil Arch has a companion symbolism to Thantos? Hmmm.
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Elanor - Jan 26, 2005 12:55 pm (#1063 of 1121)
LOL Hollywand! That's why I do need a time-turner, do you think McGonagall would lend me one since you always have those brilliant discussions when it is about 3 or 4 a.m. here? On the other hand, it is always a pleasure to wake up and read the posts of the night in the morning, a fantastic way to begin the day!
About Hermione, I don't think it is very likely that she becomes a werewolf either but her knowledge will maybe help Lupin in the future, hence the hints about werewolves connected to her. This should eventually reinforce the symbolism of the Grey Wolf, the purification work.
Archangel, I agree that PS/SS is the skeleton of the series. Symbolically, everything is already here, or at least exists in embryo, ready to be developped. I can't wait to continue the reread, is the team ready to continue the hunt?
I often wondered about magical passages between Hogwarts and other places. If they exist, I bet they start in the dungeons. In medieval castles, there were always secrets passages allowing people to escape from it. Those passages always started in the dungeons and very often they ended in a forest, not far from the castle. I'm sure we have not discovered yet all the secrets the Forbidden Forest hides...
Hollywand, about "Thantos", are you refering to Thanatos, the character symbolizing Death in ancient Greece? A great idea!
About PS/SS, we found a lot of references to the number 12. I don't remember if we said it before (probably) but one think struck me at the end of the book: all of this happens when Harry is 11, which means in his 12th year! Another nice image, isn't it?
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 6:46 pm (#1064 of 1121)
You are correct, Elanor, the word should read Thanatos; my Greek is as feeble as my French! ;-)
The first years approach Hogwarts via a waterway, and Hagrid is their guide. It's interesting that Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with the baby Harry, and the first years. Above reproach.
The detail regarding Harry's years of progression are interesting as well.
In year one, the magic begins at eleven, and he moves toward twelve and the stone.
Year two he encounters Tom Riddle and the Chamber and moves toward 13. Rowling hints that we will return to the story line in Book Six.
Prisoner of Azkaban begins with 13 and the Grim---a suggestion of the death of Sirius in the numbers and symbolism of this book.
Fourteen, Voldemort is reincarnated.
Fifteen, the trick, the loss of Sirius.
Sixteen? I'm thinking that Harry will have had enough of running from Voldemort and progress to pursuit.
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Julie Aronson - Jan 26, 2005 7:27 pm (#1065 of 1121)
Hollywand,
Looking at your age list reminds me that in Book 6 Harry will be the same age as the memory of Tom Riddle. Maybe there's something there...I don't know. I feel a bit foggy tonight, but I thought I'd throw that into the mix.
Julie
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Hollywand - Jan 26, 2005 8:03 pm (#1066 of 1121)
Julie, that's actually a great association with the alchemical metals. One of them is tin, another is silver. If Book Two can be thought of as a "ghost" image of Book Six, and Tom is a "memory or ghost of Voldemort" , the issues in Book Two will be intensified in Book Six as we approach the final confrontation.
Does that make sense?
Book Seven will be the book of Gold, as Harry attains his victory. In Book Six, Voldemort will be at his zenith. Chills.
Thanks for your contribution!
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Archangel - Jan 26, 2005 11:07 pm (#1067 of 1121)
Elanor, the escape routes point was excellent. I have thought about this and it would seem foolish if Hogwarts didn't have escape routes in the event the castle is captured.
In PoA, the Weasley twins told Harry that there are 7 passages that lead right into Hogsmeade. Filch knows 4 and so it's assumed that those ways are heavily guarded. One leads to the Whomping Willow presumably to the Shrieking Shack. One leads to Honeydukes. One is blocked.
Are the twins really sure that the 4 guarded passages lead to Hogsmeade?
Hollywand, wonderful observation on book 2&6's connection with Voldemort.
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Archangel - Jan 27, 2005 5:22 am (#1068 of 1121)
Just a crazy thought ...
I was reading OoP (again!), eating lots of Toblerone (again!!), and came across this passage which I'm sure you've read a lot:
"It contains a force that it at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all."
Could this possibly be Hope? Hope is the last thing to go, isn't it? It forces us to go on even if the task ahead is daunting. Harry went to MoM on the hope of rescuing Siruis in time. When Voldemort possessed him, he welcomed death hoping to be reunited with Sirius. It is hope that sustained him throughout his miserable and abusive stay with the Dursleys. Didn't he hope that a mysterious relative would someday save him?
Once hope is gone, what else is left? Nothing except darkness, doubts, and depression, right? I believe that this is what separates Harry from the rest apart from his ability to love and feel. He has this ability to believe that things will get better any second even if he's facing the most foul, most evil things in this world.
Boy, if this is correct, how perfectly would it tie with the Star Card reference that we have uncovered in this thread?
This closely parallels the Greek mythos about Pandora and her oh-so-famous box. Pandora was created by the gods. She was endowed with all the best things that the gods could offer. She was their punishment to mankind. She was sent to earth along with a jar and instructions that she must never open it. Gifted and cursed with curiosity, she opened the jar to have look at what it contains and out came all the most terrible things that the gods could conjure. She tried to close the jar but it was too late and mankind will never be the same again. When she managed to close it, all that was left was Hope.
It wasn't mentioned who was the god that thought Hope was the worst thing that he/she could ever give to mankind. He/She must be regretting that decision because it turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
How does this relate to alchemy?
Well, the journey towards the Stone is full of trials and frustrations that it is easy to abandon the quest or be lead astray. As much as knowledge and hard work are necessary for the journey, having faith, hope, and love never hurt anyone. Apologies for the length and touchy-feely sentiment of the post.
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zelmia - Jan 27, 2005 7:34 am (#1069 of 1121)
Archangel, you shouldn't apologize for "touchy-feely" sentimental posts. You're not a machine, after all.
I just wanted to point out that the Twins said that there were 7 passages out of the Castle/Hogwarts - not 7 passages that lead to Hogsmeade. They indicated the one passage that they knew went to Hogsmeade: the one Harry took.
If we're thinking of escape routes, I would be interested to know where the other passages lead.
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Hollywand - Jan 27, 2005 9:07 am (#1070 of 1121)
Archangel, I echo Zelmia's statement. Having a rich internal life is a gift. Your post set me to thinking about the locked door again; the connection to Hope is very poetic.
Your post set me to thinking about Jo's remarks about what's important to her. She identifies herself as a Gryffindor, and says that she values courage above all. Perhaps here she simply unlocks the door, tells us the clue's answer, and here it is right before our prying eyes. ;-)
If we think to the source of the word courage, its root is in the Latin cor, for heart; it also refers to a greatness of spirit. Here, a sort of alchemical mystery, the heart and greatness of spirit are one concept. The body/spirit unified; the two that are mysteriously one.
Harry is a true Gryffindor, evidenced by his greatness of spirit, his heart of the lion, his courage, his golden heart. Gold a soft, but highly valued metal; silver the harder metal, to be sure, but less valuable.
Voldemort, though powerful, is only controlled by his fear which gives birth to nihilism and not hope.
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Elanor - Jan 27, 2005 1:32 pm (#1071 of 1121)
Beautiful posts,everybody. It was a great joy to read them. And I agree, you shouldn't apologize Archangel! Actually, I think you have put a finger on something very interesting. See the magic of this forum: I was exhausted and here I am, checking my books, being excited with what I found and eager to share it with you all!
Hope is one of the 3 theological virtues: hope (Spes), faith (Fides) and charity (Caritas, here meaning love). The symbols used to represent them were also used for representing Mercury, Sulfur and Salt! Here is the link with alchemy!
These 3 virtues were all daughters of Sophia (wisdom). So they are 3 but they are one also. And Harry possesses the 3 of them in his heart: faith in DD, in his friends, in what he believes is right; hope that never leaves him and charity, because his heart is full with compassion and love.
Charity, love, is what leads the other ones because everything rests on compassion, goodness and benevolence. It fits very well with DD too, don't you think so? No wonder that HE understands what is behind that door.
Besides, these 3 virtues are bound to the four cardinal virtues: courage, justice, wisdom and temperance, which means 7 virtues in all, 7 again! A curious thing about those 4 cardinal virtues: 2 of them have the same symbols as 2 of Hogwarts houses. There is maybe another symbol here:
Courage (Fortitudo) can be represented by a knight armour, a lion, a sword: Gryffindor comes to mind at once.
Wisdom (Prudentia, it means also caution and skill) is represented by a snake, a mirror, a torch, a coffin. Slytherin!
The 2 other virtues are:
Justice (Justitia), represented by scales, a square, the globe, a book of laws. Somehow, it reminds me of Ravenclaw.
Temperance (Temperantia, meaning moderation) is represented by 2 containers (for mixing water and wine), a camel, an elephant, an hourglass. It would fit with Hufflepuff.
What do you think?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 27, 2005 1:57 pm (#1072 of 1121)
A well done to all and a hearty welcome and well met to all those who have recently begun posting in the thead.
I should like to propose that a reading of CoS take place to see what new indications threads and clues may be discovered.
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Hollywand - Jan 27, 2005 5:05 pm (#1073 of 1121)
Bravo, Elanor. Fantastic post! A joy to read!
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Archangel - Jan 27, 2005 6:37 pm (#1074 of 1121)
I agree. Wonderful post Elanor! You found the alchemical connection of Hope and so much more! See I knew faith, hope, and love are all inter-connected somehow but you found the proof! I'm very impressed!
Zelmia, that's what I thought as well -- that the 7 passages are not just for Hogsmeade but out of Hogwarts in general. However, I'm not sure if the Weasley twins knew that and we're just convinced that the all the passages lead to Hogsmeade. I'm not sure about Harry though as his thoughts were interrupted.
"This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead ---
"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. "
7 is an important number in the series. After the fight in OoP, Harry's circle grew from 3 to 6 with the addition of Luna, Ginny, and Neville. I think we're going to see another member joining the group to complete the magic circle. Who? My guess is Viktor Krum. There I've said it. If I'm wrong, butterbeers and treacle tarts are on me.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 27, 2005 8:01 pm (#1075 of 1121)
Archangel, I agree that the group will evolve from a sextet to a septet. The idea that Krum will be the seventh figure has interesting possibilities. I was considering the possibilities that the seventh member could be Susan Bones.
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 1076 to 1100)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:19 am
Archangel - Jan 27, 2005 8:46 pm (#1076 of 1121)
Edited by Jan 27, 2005 8:57 pm
Did you know that the name Susan actually means "lily" in Hebrew? I certainly didn't know this!
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 12:34 am (#1077 of 1121)
And that Hannah's name is "grace from God". It's also from Hebrew origins. Two Hufflepuffs, two Hebrew names. Not sure if this brings importance to the series or what not but thought to share this info just the same.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2005 11:40 am (#1078 of 1121)
Archangel, I was unaware that Susan meant lily in Hebrew. A thought occurred to me yesterday.
The sextet is comprised of five Gryffindors and one Ravenclaw. If the idea that the sextet will be increased to a septet is accaurate and a Hufflepuff is added as the seventh member. Then it could bode ill for one of the Gryffindor's because, in order to maintain the group as a septet and have it representative of the four houses one of the Gryffindor's will have to be removed from the group and replaced with a Slytherin.
Although, it is the sextet could be increased not to a septet but to an octet or nonet without it boding ill for the grouping
An octet is possible because, the tarot association with the number 8 is one of unity as is represented by either the Justice or Strength card. The nonet or ennead is possible as multiple of 3
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Elanor - Jan 28, 2005 1:45 pm (#1079 of 1121)
Thanks! But about the 3 theological virtues, I have absolutely no merit. In fact, I should have remembered that before since I have a nice pendant that represents them. It comes from my grand-grand-mother and I wore it for years because I found it cute. It was a motif very trendy about 1900. In fact, on a single little ring, you find 3 tiny pendants: a heart (love), a cross (faith) and an anchor (hope). I always knew that they meant that but I only truly understood yesterday how important it was that there are 3 separate pendants but on a one ring: they are 3, but 1 at the same time.
Hollywand: " Voldemort, though powerful, is only controlled by his fear which gives birth to nihilism and not hope." Great remark! DD says he can't die because there is not enough humanity in him left. He can't love, he can't hope and he can't have faith, even in himself since Harry is still alive, because all his thoughts are focused inwards, on himself, when Harry's feelings are focused outwards on the ones he loves. Don't you think so?
I agree, it should be very interesting symbolically to see the sextet becoming a septet. I like the idea of Krum being the seventh very much, they need a "dragon", don't they?
Susan and Hannah are good possibilities too, what you found about their names is very interesting. I like the Hannah possibility because her name begins with an "H" as well.
About the reread of CoS, that's okay with me, I will try and start this weekend!
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Hollywand - Jan 28, 2005 2:17 pm (#1080 of 1121)
Elanor, I agree with your observation. Harry wants to have connection with others, thinks as a community leader, as Voldemort is only thinks of his own short term personal game, coupled with a desire to deny his own mortality.
I have been so taken with the great discussion linking the symbols on this thread. I can't imagine how I will feel if, upon reading Book Six, that none of the alchemical metaphors match.
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Elanor - Jan 28, 2005 2:38 pm (#1081 of 1121)
Oh my! What a scary thought Hollywand! I don't think each and every one will match, but I'm confident that a lot of them will. Actually, they already match. If you even only look at what we found about PS, the whole symbolism works perfectly ("and the silver became gold").
We have till this summer for checking if it works with the other books the same way. If it does, and we already found some pretty good examples of it, then we should be right when we say that each book is a journey on his own but also a part of the great journey of the 7 books. The whole symbolism is so coherent that I think we will rather think "that's brilliant" when reading HBP. I have also no doubt that we will find other fantastic food for thought in it that will, in his turn, enrich what we already found in the 5 first books, don't you think so? **sending cheering charms and the help of my patronus to Hollywand** (BTW, I think it would be a cat -my patronus- or a mole, as I am "as blind as a mole" as we say here...)
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Hollywand - Jan 28, 2005 4:24 pm (#1082 of 1121)
Thanks, Elanor, your remarks have been a source of joy lots of times! Here in the US, a "mole" refers to someone who is an undercover spy......Hmmm, and you sort of fancy Severus, Hmmmm..... ;-) Seriously, though, others have implied that they don't see much of a correlation with the books and Alchemy at all....I will feel rather sheepish if this proves to be the case. Maybe my patronus is a black sheep, baaaaaaa..... :-) Certainly wouldn't be of much use against the heliopaths, dragons or fire adders........
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2005 6:04 pm (#1083 of 1121)
Here are some observations about Chapter 1 of CoS.
Point 1: The narrative begins on Harry's 12th. birthday.
Point 2: The Dursley's are having dinner engagement with Mason's. The term mason is a synonym for a bricklayer or an architect.
Point 3: Uncle Vernon warned Harry three times about controlling Hedwig.
Point 4: The Masons are scheduled to arrive at 8:15. If the three numbers that constitute the time are added together the following equation results 8+1+5 = 14. In the hierarchy of the major arcana of the Tarot card numbered 14 is known as Temperance. It is the first card that person encounters after crossing the threshold that the pior card, Death represents. It is also ironic because Dobby in his efforts to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts represents a lack of Temperance.
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 6:17 pm (#1084 of 1121)
Edited by Jan 28, 2005 6:33 pm
That is a scary thought Hollywand! I'd be disappointed for sure but you know what, I'd probably get over it in a flash. With all the new information I got and new perspective of looking at the series, I wouldn't or rather, don't feel short-changed or foolish at all. Actually, I feel those who don't see the connections at all are missing out on something great. But what can one do? You can't force people to do things like you do without using the Imperius Curse!
Hope humbly then; with trembling pinions soar;
Wait the great teacher death, and God adore.
What future bliss, he gives not thee to know,
But gives that hope to be thy blessing now.
Hope springs eternal in the human breast:
Man never is, but always to be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.
-Alexander Pope,
An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733
That passage always cheers me up, hope it does the same thing for you! Chin up, Hollywand!
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 10:40 pm (#1085 of 1121)
Bellatrix Female Warrior. Hand of Orion. Amazon Star.
It is associated to Mars and Mercury! Mars is to War and Mercury is to Voldemort. It's fascinating that this star is very much connected to the concepts of honor, wealth, and violence. It was also mentioned that blindness and ruin will occur late in life. I'm not disclosing that something might happen to Bella in the next books that will literally rob her of her sight. After all, the white queen that attacked Ron was described as having a blank face. However, I think that this has more to do with her inability to see the evil things that Voldemort is doing because of her fanaticism.
Regulus Heart of the Great Lion. King.
One of the 4 archangel stars or guardians of heaven. However, it is also considered as one of the Horses -- as in the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Conquest, War, Famine, and Death).
We don't know much about Regulus except that he was high up in DE but was personally killed by Voldemort when he failed to carry out his master's orders because, I'm only assuming this, he had a change of heart. This passage is perfect for him: "It gives violence, destructiveness, military honor of short duration, with ultimate failure, imprisonment, violent death, success, high and lofty ideals and strength, of spirit, and makes its natives magnanimous, grandly liberal, generous, ambitious, fond of power, desirous of command, high-spirited and independent."
Sirius Scorching. Brightly Radiating One.
This star is found in the Canis Major constellation. One of Orion's hunting dogs. "It gives honor, renown, wealth, ardor, faithfulness, devotion, passion and resentment, and makes its natives custodians, curators and guardians" It says that other stars tend to gravitate towards this star and this reminds me of how popular and easy-going Sirius was in his youth. He was the life of the party. *sniff*
Orion Connection Interesting that Regulus and Bellatrix are both part of the Orion constellation while Sirius is part of the Great Hunting Scene of Orion. This scene includes other constellations that seem to always appear with Orion like Gemini (reminds me the Lestrange brothers), the two dogs (Crabbe and Goyle), the charioteer (Lucius), the frightened hare (Wormtail!!!!! or Nott in the graveyard scene) among others. Sirius is associated here because for 13 years people believed he was Voldemort's most ardent supporter and he was never really cleared of any charges. Popular perception is that he's still in Voldemort's circle.
There are two versions as to how Orion died. One version said that because of his hunting prowess, he boasted to the gods that he can kill all animals in the world. Gaea responded by sending the sneaky scorpion. The scorpion stung him in his heel and he died of poison.
The other version is that Orion being the great hunter that he was caught Artemis' eye. Apollo, Artemis' brother, did not approve of the upcoming union and tricked her sister. He said that he could not kill the creature in the sea and pointed to her a black blur. Artemis launched one of her silver arrows and killed the creature instantly. That creature was Orion who was bathing at that time. (For some reason, I was laughing when I read this story. I could imagine Apollo saying, "Oops sorry! My eyesight's not as good as it used to be!" after his sister discovers the body)
Could Voldemort, the great hunter and killer of Muggles and Mudbloods, be subjected to similar fate? I like the "death by scorpion" idea. One man's potion could be another man's poison. One boy's protection could be another man's destruction?
Although I wouldn't say no to seeing (reading!!!) Voldemort being hit accidentally by one of Bella's Crucio curses! I wonder what he'd say or do to her if that happens! Somehow I get this vibe that saying sorry would not be enough, don't you?
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Elanor - Jan 29, 2005 9:45 am (#1086 of 1121)
Wonderful post Archangel! What a great research you made! Incidentally, I agree that saying sorry would not be enough for Bella... LOL!
I like the image of "the hunter hunted" (can I say that?) very much. In French, we have a saying "l'arroseur arrosé" (the one who waters is watered) and I found that you have the same kind of saying in English: "it's a case of the biter being bit" and, taken literally, it reminded me of the "morsmordre" discussion and the Death Eaters. Voldemort is the ones who bites, it should be fair he would be bitten at the end. Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if, as we already said, Wormtail's life debt towards Harry would allow that and lead to Voldemort's destruction. "One boy's protection could be another man's destruction?": great sentence!
Nathan: great details to notice! I have started my reread and will post what I have noticed tomorrow, okay?
Hollywand:"Here in the US, a "mole" refers to someone who is an undercover spy......Hmmm, and you sort of fancy Severus, Hmmmm..... ;-) Here as well... I always loved moles and bats: they have a bad reputation but they are very useful in fact, just as our dear Severus, don't wonder I like him as well...
"Seriously, though, others have implied that they don't see much of a correlation with the books and Alchemy at all....I will feel rather sheepish if this proves to be the case." There are a lot of theories about the HP universe, the most important is that what we do makes us appreciate the series even more and that we have fun doing some researches, don't you think so?
Maybe my patronus is a black sheep, baaaaaaa..... :-) Certainly wouldn't be of much use against the heliopaths, dragons or fire adders........ LOL! I don't believe it! Hollywand of Hollywood, gryffindor, your patronus should be a lion! Much more useful...
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Hollywand - Jan 29, 2005 10:27 am (#1087 of 1121)
Thanks Elanor and Archangel for your kind words.....meet me at the Hogs Head or The Leaky Cauldron for a brew.......and some chocolate, of course!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 29, 2005 4:08 pm (#1088 of 1121)
Archangel, your commentary on Bellatrix, Regulus, and Sirius reminded me of this passage from The Bhagavad-Gita
If the radiance of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky, That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One... I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds.
Also, another note about chapter 1 of CoS the term mason can also be used to decribe members of the Society of Freemasons.
I deleted my earlier post because, there were some corrections that needed to be made to the spelling.
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zelmia - Jan 29, 2005 6:13 pm (#1089 of 1121)
This is just a minor point, but I'm pretty sure Sirius tells Harry that Regulus wasn't high enough in the Death Eater organization to be killed by Voldemort personally. Still, Archangel, your post on the stars/constellations is wonderful. Thanks for that.
Nathan, that citation does seem very appropriate here. Nice one!
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Archangel - Jan 29, 2005 11:32 pm (#1090 of 1121)
Awww shucks... thanks for the compliments y'all!
I found another Hermione-Krum connection. This one I discovered accidentally when I was trying to learn more about Bulgaria's history.
Did you know that "Khan Krum" is not only a Bulgarian monarch but a region that produces wine as well? Its famous export is the Chardonnay Khan Krum. Anybody familiar with this white wine?
What's Hermione's wood wand again? Doesn't it rhyme with and produces wine?
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Elanor - Jan 30, 2005 4:55 am (#1091 of 1121)
Ah, ah! Well, I'm not an expert at all but as I live not far from the Beaujolais and Bourgogne vineyards -and do appreciate local products - I know one little thing or two about Chardonnay. First it is a type of vine, as pinot or gamay for example, which is used for making white wines. It is used for most of the great white wines of Burgundy and also for some Champagne wines. These are wines that are not to be drunk young, but age very well. Does it help? And yes, Hermione's wood wand is vine, hmmm... A pity we don't what type of vine it is...
CoS, chapter 1 - The Worst Birthday
Nathan, the detail about the Masons and the freemasons is great! Freemasonry's iconography is very complex because it is the result of many different influences, first of all architecture but also alchemy's and astrology's iconography. At the beginning of a book in which architecture will play a great role, this subtle reference to architecture can be seen as a nice veiled message: "notice the mason", notice the architecture... I think we will find other veiled references to that in our reread.
I have also noticed:
- Harry's 12th birthday.
- 3 times, Harry says: "I'll be in my room, making no noise and pretending I'm not there." and then "No cards, no presents and he would be spending the evening pretending not to exist". Here again, Harry starts the book in a "dead" position, pretenting he doesn't exist and hence, shaming death.
- The Dursleys are afraid that "he might turn them all into dung beetles". The beetle is a symbol we already encountered. Symbol of rebirth, rolling a ball of fire, hmm... The Dursleys are not ready for that, though they might be better as beetles than as human beings, who knows...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 30, 2005 4:32 pm (#1092 of 1121)
Here are some observations about Chapter 2:
Point 1: In the letter Harry is told that an illegal hover charm was detected at 4PD.
If the word hover is inserted into a simple alpha-numeric code with the letter A = 1 and Z = 26. Then for the word hover the following cipher results H = 8, O = 15, V = 22, E = 5, and R = 18. From these numbers the following equation results, 8+15+22+5+18 = 68. In a reduced form 17 multipled by 4 equals 68 which can be written out in the following way: 17 X 4 = 68.
Point 2: There are two dual references to the the number 21 and reference to the number 12
First in the letter issued by Mafalda Hopkirk the time of Harry's infraction is given as 9:12 this could be a dual reference because the following equations are possible 9+12 = 21 or 9+1+2 = 12. In terms of terms of Tarot associations the following associations are possible: The World or Universe as the twenty first and last card of the major arcana, or alternatively the Hanged Man as the twelfth card in the major arcana; Second, the sum total of the numbers indicating the specific provision violated is 1875 C. If the numerals are considered independently of the letter, the following equation results 1+8+7+5 = 21. If however, the numeric represenation of the letter C which is 3 is included in the calculation the following equation results 1+8+7+5+3 = 24
Point 3: Dobby's eyes are green.
Point 4: Dobby describes Voldemort and Dumbledore as being equal in terms of power. This reminds me again of the Janus references that have been disccused previously.
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Elanor - Jan 30, 2005 9:59 pm (#1093 of 1121)
I have some great news that I want to share first with the ones who post on this thread. I've received this, this morning:
"The Accio Programming Team is pleased to let you know that we've accepted your submission "Alchemical Symbols" for this summer's conference. You will be sharing a one hour time slot with another presenter."
Oh my! I'm too shaken for starting to think now (plus it's 6.55 a.m. ...) but I am so pleased. It is the work of the whole team here that allowed that. Thank you so much everybody! YIPEEH!
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 12:31 am (#1094 of 1121)
I'm so excited, I just can't hide it, I'm about to lose control and I think I like it... OK, I'll stop now!
Seriously, this is wonderful news and wonderful honor to the thread Elanor! Go Lions!!! Butterbeers and um... snacks on me!
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Hollywand - Jan 31, 2005 5:41 am (#1095 of 1121)
Congratulations, Elanor! If there's anything we can do to assist your presentation, please let us know! I have every confidence you will be a wonderful lecturer! Yipee.....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 10:39 am (#1096 of 1121)
Well done Elanor.
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Elanor - Jan 31, 2005 1:33 pm (#1097 of 1121)
Thank you so much everybody! The team has done such a great work here and it is our work, as a team, that has been chosen. I can't tell you how that thought makes me happy! And I will badly need your help, lions!
Let's get back to work! So, about chapter 2 Dobby's warning, I noticed:
- the Hover charm (air element) "at twelve minutes past nine" as you did Nathan, the same symbolical numbers again.
- "Now the Dursleys knew they weren't going to wake up as fruitbats". After the dung beetle reference, it is the fruitbat, another flying though not beautiful creature. I don't know if this is significant or not but it would be interesting to see if there are other connections between the Dursleys and the air element.
- Harry "lay back down on the bed". He is still in the dead position.
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 5:54 pm (#1098 of 1121)
The witch of the month's name is Artemisia Lufkin. It says there that she's the first witch to become Minister of Magic. Obviously, her first name is derived from Artemis, the Great Huntress. I haven't seen her picture though, does she have silver arrows? Artemis is also the goddess of the Moon but she's commonly called Selene if she's in that form.
Anyway, this made me remember the whole stars-Orion-Artemis post. BTW, I haven't noticed this before but the Orion constellation was indeed mentioned in the book. It was during his Astronomy OWLs.
"As Harry completed the constellation Orion on his chart,..." (718)
I find this weird though because the Orion constellation is only visible from November to April and the exams were held in June. Hmmm... something's not right here...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 7:08 pm (#1099 of 1121)
Most interesting, when I hear the the name Artemisia my mind harkens back to the Baroque artist Artemisia Gentileschi, whose most famous works involved female subjects such as Judith, Deborah and most importantly Susanna.
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 7:22 pm (#1100 of 1121)
Artemisia means "belonging to Artemis"
"Artemis, Greek Goddess of Light and the Hunt, was always responsive to the needs of the vulnerable and the suffering. She was quick to defend the powerless from unjust treatment at the hands of the Olympian patriarchy."
Sounds like Hermione...
I wish JKR would write another Hogwarts textbook ala Fantastic Beasts sigh! *
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Edited by Jan 27, 2005 8:57 pm
Did you know that the name Susan actually means "lily" in Hebrew? I certainly didn't know this!
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 12:34 am (#1077 of 1121)
And that Hannah's name is "grace from God". It's also from Hebrew origins. Two Hufflepuffs, two Hebrew names. Not sure if this brings importance to the series or what not but thought to share this info just the same.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2005 11:40 am (#1078 of 1121)
Archangel, I was unaware that Susan meant lily in Hebrew. A thought occurred to me yesterday.
The sextet is comprised of five Gryffindors and one Ravenclaw. If the idea that the sextet will be increased to a septet is accaurate and a Hufflepuff is added as the seventh member. Then it could bode ill for one of the Gryffindor's because, in order to maintain the group as a septet and have it representative of the four houses one of the Gryffindor's will have to be removed from the group and replaced with a Slytherin.
Although, it is the sextet could be increased not to a septet but to an octet or nonet without it boding ill for the grouping
An octet is possible because, the tarot association with the number 8 is one of unity as is represented by either the Justice or Strength card. The nonet or ennead is possible as multiple of 3
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Elanor - Jan 28, 2005 1:45 pm (#1079 of 1121)
Thanks! But about the 3 theological virtues, I have absolutely no merit. In fact, I should have remembered that before since I have a nice pendant that represents them. It comes from my grand-grand-mother and I wore it for years because I found it cute. It was a motif very trendy about 1900. In fact, on a single little ring, you find 3 tiny pendants: a heart (love), a cross (faith) and an anchor (hope). I always knew that they meant that but I only truly understood yesterday how important it was that there are 3 separate pendants but on a one ring: they are 3, but 1 at the same time.
Hollywand: " Voldemort, though powerful, is only controlled by his fear which gives birth to nihilism and not hope." Great remark! DD says he can't die because there is not enough humanity in him left. He can't love, he can't hope and he can't have faith, even in himself since Harry is still alive, because all his thoughts are focused inwards, on himself, when Harry's feelings are focused outwards on the ones he loves. Don't you think so?
I agree, it should be very interesting symbolically to see the sextet becoming a septet. I like the idea of Krum being the seventh very much, they need a "dragon", don't they?
Susan and Hannah are good possibilities too, what you found about their names is very interesting. I like the Hannah possibility because her name begins with an "H" as well.
About the reread of CoS, that's okay with me, I will try and start this weekend!
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Hollywand - Jan 28, 2005 2:17 pm (#1080 of 1121)
Elanor, I agree with your observation. Harry wants to have connection with others, thinks as a community leader, as Voldemort is only thinks of his own short term personal game, coupled with a desire to deny his own mortality.
I have been so taken with the great discussion linking the symbols on this thread. I can't imagine how I will feel if, upon reading Book Six, that none of the alchemical metaphors match.
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Elanor - Jan 28, 2005 2:38 pm (#1081 of 1121)
Oh my! What a scary thought Hollywand! I don't think each and every one will match, but I'm confident that a lot of them will. Actually, they already match. If you even only look at what we found about PS, the whole symbolism works perfectly ("and the silver became gold").
We have till this summer for checking if it works with the other books the same way. If it does, and we already found some pretty good examples of it, then we should be right when we say that each book is a journey on his own but also a part of the great journey of the 7 books. The whole symbolism is so coherent that I think we will rather think "that's brilliant" when reading HBP. I have also no doubt that we will find other fantastic food for thought in it that will, in his turn, enrich what we already found in the 5 first books, don't you think so? **sending cheering charms and the help of my patronus to Hollywand** (BTW, I think it would be a cat -my patronus- or a mole, as I am "as blind as a mole" as we say here...)
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Hollywand - Jan 28, 2005 4:24 pm (#1082 of 1121)
Thanks, Elanor, your remarks have been a source of joy lots of times! Here in the US, a "mole" refers to someone who is an undercover spy......Hmmm, and you sort of fancy Severus, Hmmmm..... ;-) Seriously, though, others have implied that they don't see much of a correlation with the books and Alchemy at all....I will feel rather sheepish if this proves to be the case. Maybe my patronus is a black sheep, baaaaaaa..... :-) Certainly wouldn't be of much use against the heliopaths, dragons or fire adders........
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2005 6:04 pm (#1083 of 1121)
Here are some observations about Chapter 1 of CoS.
Point 1: The narrative begins on Harry's 12th. birthday.
Point 2: The Dursley's are having dinner engagement with Mason's. The term mason is a synonym for a bricklayer or an architect.
Point 3: Uncle Vernon warned Harry three times about controlling Hedwig.
Point 4: The Masons are scheduled to arrive at 8:15. If the three numbers that constitute the time are added together the following equation results 8+1+5 = 14. In the hierarchy of the major arcana of the Tarot card numbered 14 is known as Temperance. It is the first card that person encounters after crossing the threshold that the pior card, Death represents. It is also ironic because Dobby in his efforts to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts represents a lack of Temperance.
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 6:17 pm (#1084 of 1121)
Edited by Jan 28, 2005 6:33 pm
That is a scary thought Hollywand! I'd be disappointed for sure but you know what, I'd probably get over it in a flash. With all the new information I got and new perspective of looking at the series, I wouldn't or rather, don't feel short-changed or foolish at all. Actually, I feel those who don't see the connections at all are missing out on something great. But what can one do? You can't force people to do things like you do without using the Imperius Curse!
Hope humbly then; with trembling pinions soar;
Wait the great teacher death, and God adore.
What future bliss, he gives not thee to know,
But gives that hope to be thy blessing now.
Hope springs eternal in the human breast:
Man never is, but always to be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.
-Alexander Pope,
An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733
That passage always cheers me up, hope it does the same thing for you! Chin up, Hollywand!
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Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 10:40 pm (#1085 of 1121)
Bellatrix Female Warrior. Hand of Orion. Amazon Star.
It is associated to Mars and Mercury! Mars is to War and Mercury is to Voldemort. It's fascinating that this star is very much connected to the concepts of honor, wealth, and violence. It was also mentioned that blindness and ruin will occur late in life. I'm not disclosing that something might happen to Bella in the next books that will literally rob her of her sight. After all, the white queen that attacked Ron was described as having a blank face. However, I think that this has more to do with her inability to see the evil things that Voldemort is doing because of her fanaticism.
Regulus Heart of the Great Lion. King.
One of the 4 archangel stars or guardians of heaven. However, it is also considered as one of the Horses -- as in the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Conquest, War, Famine, and Death).
We don't know much about Regulus except that he was high up in DE but was personally killed by Voldemort when he failed to carry out his master's orders because, I'm only assuming this, he had a change of heart. This passage is perfect for him: "It gives violence, destructiveness, military honor of short duration, with ultimate failure, imprisonment, violent death, success, high and lofty ideals and strength, of spirit, and makes its natives magnanimous, grandly liberal, generous, ambitious, fond of power, desirous of command, high-spirited and independent."
Sirius Scorching. Brightly Radiating One.
This star is found in the Canis Major constellation. One of Orion's hunting dogs. "It gives honor, renown, wealth, ardor, faithfulness, devotion, passion and resentment, and makes its natives custodians, curators and guardians" It says that other stars tend to gravitate towards this star and this reminds me of how popular and easy-going Sirius was in his youth. He was the life of the party. *sniff*
Orion Connection Interesting that Regulus and Bellatrix are both part of the Orion constellation while Sirius is part of the Great Hunting Scene of Orion. This scene includes other constellations that seem to always appear with Orion like Gemini (reminds me the Lestrange brothers), the two dogs (Crabbe and Goyle), the charioteer (Lucius), the frightened hare (Wormtail!!!!! or Nott in the graveyard scene) among others. Sirius is associated here because for 13 years people believed he was Voldemort's most ardent supporter and he was never really cleared of any charges. Popular perception is that he's still in Voldemort's circle.
There are two versions as to how Orion died. One version said that because of his hunting prowess, he boasted to the gods that he can kill all animals in the world. Gaea responded by sending the sneaky scorpion. The scorpion stung him in his heel and he died of poison.
The other version is that Orion being the great hunter that he was caught Artemis' eye. Apollo, Artemis' brother, did not approve of the upcoming union and tricked her sister. He said that he could not kill the creature in the sea and pointed to her a black blur. Artemis launched one of her silver arrows and killed the creature instantly. That creature was Orion who was bathing at that time. (For some reason, I was laughing when I read this story. I could imagine Apollo saying, "Oops sorry! My eyesight's not as good as it used to be!" after his sister discovers the body)
Could Voldemort, the great hunter and killer of Muggles and Mudbloods, be subjected to similar fate? I like the "death by scorpion" idea. One man's potion could be another man's poison. One boy's protection could be another man's destruction?
Although I wouldn't say no to seeing (reading!!!) Voldemort being hit accidentally by one of Bella's Crucio curses! I wonder what he'd say or do to her if that happens! Somehow I get this vibe that saying sorry would not be enough, don't you?
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Elanor - Jan 29, 2005 9:45 am (#1086 of 1121)
Wonderful post Archangel! What a great research you made! Incidentally, I agree that saying sorry would not be enough for Bella... LOL!
I like the image of "the hunter hunted" (can I say that?) very much. In French, we have a saying "l'arroseur arrosé" (the one who waters is watered) and I found that you have the same kind of saying in English: "it's a case of the biter being bit" and, taken literally, it reminded me of the "morsmordre" discussion and the Death Eaters. Voldemort is the ones who bites, it should be fair he would be bitten at the end. Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if, as we already said, Wormtail's life debt towards Harry would allow that and lead to Voldemort's destruction. "One boy's protection could be another man's destruction?": great sentence!
Nathan: great details to notice! I have started my reread and will post what I have noticed tomorrow, okay?
Hollywand:"Here in the US, a "mole" refers to someone who is an undercover spy......Hmmm, and you sort of fancy Severus, Hmmmm..... ;-) Here as well... I always loved moles and bats: they have a bad reputation but they are very useful in fact, just as our dear Severus, don't wonder I like him as well...
"Seriously, though, others have implied that they don't see much of a correlation with the books and Alchemy at all....I will feel rather sheepish if this proves to be the case." There are a lot of theories about the HP universe, the most important is that what we do makes us appreciate the series even more and that we have fun doing some researches, don't you think so?
Maybe my patronus is a black sheep, baaaaaaa..... :-) Certainly wouldn't be of much use against the heliopaths, dragons or fire adders........ LOL! I don't believe it! Hollywand of Hollywood, gryffindor, your patronus should be a lion! Much more useful...
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Hollywand - Jan 29, 2005 10:27 am (#1087 of 1121)
Thanks Elanor and Archangel for your kind words.....meet me at the Hogs Head or The Leaky Cauldron for a brew.......and some chocolate, of course!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 29, 2005 4:08 pm (#1088 of 1121)
Archangel, your commentary on Bellatrix, Regulus, and Sirius reminded me of this passage from The Bhagavad-Gita
If the radiance of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky, That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One... I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds.
Also, another note about chapter 1 of CoS the term mason can also be used to decribe members of the Society of Freemasons.
I deleted my earlier post because, there were some corrections that needed to be made to the spelling.
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zelmia - Jan 29, 2005 6:13 pm (#1089 of 1121)
This is just a minor point, but I'm pretty sure Sirius tells Harry that Regulus wasn't high enough in the Death Eater organization to be killed by Voldemort personally. Still, Archangel, your post on the stars/constellations is wonderful. Thanks for that.
Nathan, that citation does seem very appropriate here. Nice one!
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Archangel - Jan 29, 2005 11:32 pm (#1090 of 1121)
Awww shucks... thanks for the compliments y'all!
I found another Hermione-Krum connection. This one I discovered accidentally when I was trying to learn more about Bulgaria's history.
Did you know that "Khan Krum" is not only a Bulgarian monarch but a region that produces wine as well? Its famous export is the Chardonnay Khan Krum. Anybody familiar with this white wine?
What's Hermione's wood wand again? Doesn't it rhyme with and produces wine?
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Elanor - Jan 30, 2005 4:55 am (#1091 of 1121)
Ah, ah! Well, I'm not an expert at all but as I live not far from the Beaujolais and Bourgogne vineyards -and do appreciate local products - I know one little thing or two about Chardonnay. First it is a type of vine, as pinot or gamay for example, which is used for making white wines. It is used for most of the great white wines of Burgundy and also for some Champagne wines. These are wines that are not to be drunk young, but age very well. Does it help? And yes, Hermione's wood wand is vine, hmmm... A pity we don't what type of vine it is...
CoS, chapter 1 - The Worst Birthday
Nathan, the detail about the Masons and the freemasons is great! Freemasonry's iconography is very complex because it is the result of many different influences, first of all architecture but also alchemy's and astrology's iconography. At the beginning of a book in which architecture will play a great role, this subtle reference to architecture can be seen as a nice veiled message: "notice the mason", notice the architecture... I think we will find other veiled references to that in our reread.
I have also noticed:
- Harry's 12th birthday.
- 3 times, Harry says: "I'll be in my room, making no noise and pretending I'm not there." and then "No cards, no presents and he would be spending the evening pretending not to exist". Here again, Harry starts the book in a "dead" position, pretenting he doesn't exist and hence, shaming death.
- The Dursleys are afraid that "he might turn them all into dung beetles". The beetle is a symbol we already encountered. Symbol of rebirth, rolling a ball of fire, hmm... The Dursleys are not ready for that, though they might be better as beetles than as human beings, who knows...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 30, 2005 4:32 pm (#1092 of 1121)
Here are some observations about Chapter 2:
Point 1: In the letter Harry is told that an illegal hover charm was detected at 4PD.
If the word hover is inserted into a simple alpha-numeric code with the letter A = 1 and Z = 26. Then for the word hover the following cipher results H = 8, O = 15, V = 22, E = 5, and R = 18. From these numbers the following equation results, 8+15+22+5+18 = 68. In a reduced form 17 multipled by 4 equals 68 which can be written out in the following way: 17 X 4 = 68.
Point 2: There are two dual references to the the number 21 and reference to the number 12
First in the letter issued by Mafalda Hopkirk the time of Harry's infraction is given as 9:12 this could be a dual reference because the following equations are possible 9+12 = 21 or 9+1+2 = 12. In terms of terms of Tarot associations the following associations are possible: The World or Universe as the twenty first and last card of the major arcana, or alternatively the Hanged Man as the twelfth card in the major arcana; Second, the sum total of the numbers indicating the specific provision violated is 1875 C. If the numerals are considered independently of the letter, the following equation results 1+8+7+5 = 21. If however, the numeric represenation of the letter C which is 3 is included in the calculation the following equation results 1+8+7+5+3 = 24
Point 3: Dobby's eyes are green.
Point 4: Dobby describes Voldemort and Dumbledore as being equal in terms of power. This reminds me again of the Janus references that have been disccused previously.
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Elanor - Jan 30, 2005 9:59 pm (#1093 of 1121)
I have some great news that I want to share first with the ones who post on this thread. I've received this, this morning:
"The Accio Programming Team is pleased to let you know that we've accepted your submission "Alchemical Symbols" for this summer's conference. You will be sharing a one hour time slot with another presenter."
Oh my! I'm too shaken for starting to think now (plus it's 6.55 a.m. ...) but I am so pleased. It is the work of the whole team here that allowed that. Thank you so much everybody! YIPEEH!
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 12:31 am (#1094 of 1121)
I'm so excited, I just can't hide it, I'm about to lose control and I think I like it... OK, I'll stop now!
Seriously, this is wonderful news and wonderful honor to the thread Elanor! Go Lions!!! Butterbeers and um... snacks on me!
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Hollywand - Jan 31, 2005 5:41 am (#1095 of 1121)
Congratulations, Elanor! If there's anything we can do to assist your presentation, please let us know! I have every confidence you will be a wonderful lecturer! Yipee.....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 10:39 am (#1096 of 1121)
Well done Elanor.
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Elanor - Jan 31, 2005 1:33 pm (#1097 of 1121)
Thank you so much everybody! The team has done such a great work here and it is our work, as a team, that has been chosen. I can't tell you how that thought makes me happy! And I will badly need your help, lions!
Let's get back to work! So, about chapter 2 Dobby's warning, I noticed:
- the Hover charm (air element) "at twelve minutes past nine" as you did Nathan, the same symbolical numbers again.
- "Now the Dursleys knew they weren't going to wake up as fruitbats". After the dung beetle reference, it is the fruitbat, another flying though not beautiful creature. I don't know if this is significant or not but it would be interesting to see if there are other connections between the Dursleys and the air element.
- Harry "lay back down on the bed". He is still in the dead position.
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 5:54 pm (#1098 of 1121)
The witch of the month's name is Artemisia Lufkin. It says there that she's the first witch to become Minister of Magic. Obviously, her first name is derived from Artemis, the Great Huntress. I haven't seen her picture though, does she have silver arrows? Artemis is also the goddess of the Moon but she's commonly called Selene if she's in that form.
Anyway, this made me remember the whole stars-Orion-Artemis post. BTW, I haven't noticed this before but the Orion constellation was indeed mentioned in the book. It was during his Astronomy OWLs.
"As Harry completed the constellation Orion on his chart,..." (718)
I find this weird though because the Orion constellation is only visible from November to April and the exams were held in June. Hmmm... something's not right here...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 7:08 pm (#1099 of 1121)
Most interesting, when I hear the the name Artemisia my mind harkens back to the Baroque artist Artemisia Gentileschi, whose most famous works involved female subjects such as Judith, Deborah and most importantly Susanna.
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Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 7:22 pm (#1100 of 1121)
Artemisia means "belonging to Artemis"
"Artemis, Greek Goddess of Light and the Hunt, was always responsive to the needs of the vulnerable and the suffering. She was quick to defend the powerless from unjust treatment at the hands of the Olympian patriarchy."
Sounds like Hermione...
I wish JKR would write another Hogwarts textbook ala Fantastic Beasts sigh! *
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
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Location : France
Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part I) (post 1101 to 1121)
Elanor Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:21 am
Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 7:39 pm (#1101 of 1121)
Archangel, the website you provided is most interesting.
Among the animals sacred to Artemis are deer, dogs, and bees.
The deer is closely associated with James Potter. The Dog is closely associated with Sirius Black. The bee could possibly be associated with Albus Dumbledore. In that Dumbledore's last name name is derived form the Old Englih word for bumblebee.
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zelmia - Jan 31, 2005 8:30 pm (#1102 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Felicitations, Elanor! Et bonne chance! Tu sais que nous tous t'aiderons n'importe quel façon possible.
One thing that I think that stands out for me the most about the opening chapters of CS is that Hedwig has been locked in her cage for the entire month that Harry has been home. Apart from the obvious cruelty of this, Hedwig is Harry's touchstone with the Wizarding world while he is at #4.
Owls have become symbolic of Wisdom through the Goddess Athena who had an owl companion. She is known for many attributes through many myths, but one of the most prominent is Wisdom.
The Dursleys lock Hedwig in her cage - keeping Harry isolated. He is also barred - in this case literally - from the Wisdom of Dumbledore, McGonagall, etc.
Incidentally, the otter, of which Hollywand is so fond, can be a representation of Feminine Power, as well as (in some native american cultures) Earth and Water, Balanced Feminine Energy. How very appropriate indeed for our Hermione.
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 12:56 am (#1103 of 1121)
Zelmia, the owl-Athena-wisdom connection is simply fantastic. BTW, Athena's Roman name is Minerva! Know anyone by that name? Hehe
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 4:46 am (#1104 of 1121)
JKR updated her site and particularly the entry on owls. Now, it contains the Athena connection!!! I'm pretty sure when I checked it this morning (my morning, I think that's around night time or dawn to others) it did not contain that!
I saw the witch of the month. She reminded me of a young McG for some reason. Thought her wand looks like a candle...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 10:30 am (#1105 of 1121)
Some notes on the new information given on J.K. Rowling's website:
Note 1: The information on new witch of the month indicates that Artemisia Lufkin lived to 70 or 71 years of age depending on her month of birth.
Note 2: The revised article on owls J.K. Rowling points out that Snowy Owls are also called Ghost Owls
Note 3: The information about sponsoring an owl was deleted,
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Elanor - Feb 1, 2005 12:37 pm (#1106 of 1121)
Merci beaucoup Zelmia! I loved what you wrote about Hedwig's cage, these are great details to notice and a powerful image for the beginning of the book.
Great work about Artemis, Archangel and Nathan! It is such an appropriate name for a ministry of magic! Funny to find Artemis on the "front page" and Athena in the new article... Should Artemis be Minerva's ancestor? It is also funny that the information about the owls wasn't the same yesterday, hmm... BTW, I loved what Jo said about owls flying in the daylight at the beginning of PS.
I've read something really interesting on the CoS clues thread. Meanie Mom was saying that "treacle" we often see in CoS has other meanings than just being a pudding. It comes from the old French word "Triacle". I nearly felt off my chair when I read that! My dictionary doesn't mention this (okay, tomorrow I buy the Oxford dictionary!) but this is huge!
"Triacle" or "theriaca" was also known as "thériaque" here, and this is something I am really familiar with. Actually, thériaque comes from a Greek word meaning "wild beast".
It was a famous medicine, used during the Middle-Ages and the 17th and 18th centuries. Each hospital dispensary had its own "recipe" for its theriaque and some were more famous than others. It needed a lot of different ingredients. It was supposed to be efficient on a lot of deseases, but especially snakes' bites.
Meanie Mom was saying that it could be a hint about the basilisk biting Harry. I do agree, and I think it could also well be a hint about Harry parselmouth skills. Treacle comes very often in the other books as well, being one of Harry's favourite dessert, it could be a veiled reference to the fact that he is protected from another snake's bite, far more dangerous than the Basilisk, Voldemort... We should really notice every mention of "treacle" in the books, don't you think so?
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 5:06 pm (#1107 of 1121)
Woah! And here I was offering treacle tarts to everyone in this forum...
Treacle tarts were fairly mentioned in OoP as well. Maybe that's because of the connection between Harry and Voldemort has become more pronounced -- the snake attack vision, Voldemort's Sirius mind trick, and Harry's possession in MoM.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 8:23 pm (#1108 of 1121)
Hey all! Just posted this on the Snape thread, but thought I'd trot it by ya'll too.
"Sinistra (witch) Professor at Hogwarts, Astronomy department. The question of Sinistra's gender came up during the translation of OP into Portugese. The translation team contacted the Lexicon for an answer to the question, but I couldn't answer for sure, since it never says one way or the other in the books. I suggested that they contact Rowling, which they did. Rowling's reps responded that Sinistra was in fact a woman. - ed. "sinistra" = Italian for "with the left hand" "Sinistra" = the name of a magnitude 3.5 star in the constellation Ophiuchus, the Serpent Handler. "Ophiuchus represented Aesculapius, the ancient healer, believed to be the ancestor of Hippocrates (born 460 BCE) the great physician of Cos, and Serpens was his symbol of healing. The serpent is the symbol for the poison (venom) that can both cure and kill, Ophiuchus controls it and uses it to heal. This same snake is found on the symbol of medicine worldwide, the staff of the god Mercury, the caduceus, and both these constellations are associated with it, the caduceus shows two snakes coiling around a central rod surmounted by two wings of the bird on top." (from The Fixed Stars website)"
Interesting, yes?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 8:34 pm (#1109 of 1121)
TBE, that is most curious indeed it could give rise to a set of some noteworthy connections and possibilities. In Greek mythology Hebe had a close relationship with her brothers especially Ares. Snape can definitely said to have temper akin to Ares.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 8:55 pm (#1110 of 1121)
Elanor! Please forgive me, I posted before I caught up reading. (Looked at posts, 44, oh my, no! This idea has to get posted!)
CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, thank you Nathan. I thought it had some very interesting possibilities and connections, not just to our potions master.
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Hollywand - Feb 1, 2005 9:14 pm (#1111 of 1121)
Twinks, nice to see you here. What an awesome detail to bring in on Sinistra, with lots of possibilities. It's connected to the constellations, which is a pattern Rowling is using for a lot of the Slytherin characters, it's connected to the generalized sense of well being in the body, which Rowling seems to be using Hogwarts as a metaphor for the body. It's connected to Mercury and the Healing Arts. Connected to the snake in a very ambiguous relationship. It's a real nexus. Nice sleuthing!
Sinistra relates to a preference for hand use; left-handed. Hmmm. Could she be the new DaDa teacher? Could she be Severus' companion animal? Hmmm. Could she be a "good Slytherin"?
**************** I'm reading a book on Phi, an irrational number connected to the Golden Section, (Schnitt in German). I'm not sure if the group is ready for a lot of references to geometry, but it's loaded with references to alchemy, the quintessence, and the dodecahedron in nature. Let me know if you want to take a gander down dodecahedron lane.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 9:28 pm (#1112 of 1121)
LOL, gandering down twelve lanes at once when I can hardly stumble down a well-marked path? I'll pass for now, thank you!
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 9:33 pm (#1113 of 1121)
Very interesting indeed TBE! Thanks for sharing this wonderful info! Another wonderful food for thought...
Just to wrap-up the whole stars thing I've been harping on for the past couple of days, I looked into the possibility of the planet Mars being part of any constellation because of the references made by Firenze.
In OoP, he pointed the class to look at a red star directly above Harry and went on about the upcoming war and Mars. This is quite weird because Mars is a planet and not a star and I thought he might be referring to the presence of both a red star and Mars.
I'm not so sure if that's ever happened but guess what it does and it had! The two red "stars" were visible in the Scorpius (Scorpion) constellation! This ties in perfectly with the Voldemort-Orion-Scorpion connection I mentioned a couple of days ago.
Also interesting to note is the red star reference. The red star is called Antares. The name means "Rival of Mars" (Anti-Ares!) and it is described as "fiery red and emerald green". It is located near the center of the Scorpion constellation and is sometimes referred to as the "Heart of the Scorpion" or simply, "The Heart". It is often described as being more visible than Mars and so it becomes understandable why a lot of people confuse it with the planet when they're close together!
It's funny how heart-red-emerald green-rival of Mars come together from a single red star and now be connected to Orion, Artemis, and the Scorpion.
I feel like a Centaur - looking to the stars for answers. LOL! I keep an open mind though since centaurs still err in their "reading" of stars and I certainly have no time to burn sage and herbs to be sure!
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Hollywand - Feb 1, 2005 9:58 pm (#1114 of 1121)
Fantastic post, Archangel. Really nice connections. Book Six will be all about the war. On another thread someone mentioned that Sirius describes historic pre-Harry conditions to the trio, "Voldemort is strong. Noone knows who is on his side and who is not, the Ministry is in disarray. The killings and torturings are still going on, muggles are dying...." and that the wizarding world is back in precisely the same position at the close of Order of the Phoenix.......isn't that interesting?
- - - - - - - - - -
Archangel - Feb 2, 2005 1:38 am (#1115 of 1121)
That's very good observation! Well, history repeats itself and... "what goes around, comes around, what comes up, must come down, it's called karma baby and it goes around" OK, I'll stop now.
- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 2, 2005 9:38 am (#1116 of 1121)
Severus seems to me in addition to being crafty like Hephaestus, he sems to have and Ares like temperament in that he is prone to fits of rage. This comparision is borne out by Snape's conduct in PoA after Sirius escaped. The rage and malice demonstrated by Snape on that occassion are reminiscent of Ares. In his fits of rage the only one immune to his wrath was his sister Hebe. Perhaps, Snape like Ares has a female foil who is isimmune to his wrath and can calm him.
- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 2, 2005 10:58 am (#1117 of 1121)
Here arre some links on Hebe
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Elanor - Feb 2, 2005 1:18 pm (#1118 of 1121)
I love to see the cauldron bubbling like that!
TBE, thanks! It's nice to see you here! The connections you made about Sinistra are fantastic, the more because she is the astronomy teacher. I've searched a little about it and this is what I found:
- Sinistra, before being an Italian word, was a Latin word for "the left hand" but not only. It reminded me of what Jo wrote about owls on her site because "sinistra" meant "good omen" for the Romans, but "bad omen" for the Greeks. She chose the Greek meaning about the owls (a lucky sight), I wonder if she did the same for Sinistra.
- Generally the "bad omen" meaning of Sinistra was the most popular. It gave the word "sinister", "sinistre" in French, in which it means both "sinister" (bad omen) and gloomy, grim. We never really saw her in the books, she is merely mentioned. I wonder if we should see her as another grim figure in the next books... The meanings "left hand" and "sinister" can even melt: we have a familiar saying in French that comes from that and says "passer l'arme à gauche", it means "to die" but literally it means "to put the weapon in your left hand" (not a good idea... Hell was represented on the left side of scuptures or paintings during the Middle-Ages).
-Traditionally, the right hand was associated to daily work and the left hand to magic.
- The right and the left are also alchemical symbols since they are another fundamental couple of opposites. This is interesting I think because, if Professor Sinistra becomes more important sometime, it is likely that we will find out who her "dextera" (right hand) is. From their conjunction, their meeting in the story, could come something positive...
Archangel, I loved what you posted about Mars! And I agree, Hollywand, history repeats itself. It reminds me of what we said about smells some times ago. Smells are very important in alchemy. During the Nigredo process, the stone is supposed to smell very bad, then it smells better during the White process but smells really bad again at the beginning of the red process, before smelling really good when the stone is finally created. Voldemort's "bad smell" disappeared when the AK curse rebounded but it is back again, let's hope that this time, it is the last time before the "stone is created", that is to say before Harry can finish him off!
Hollywand, I would love to know what you found about Phi (if it is not too complicated since I am hopeless in geometry), it could have very interesting connections with the architecture meanings we found, don't you think so?
PS: so, no more treacle tart for us Archangel? A pity...
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The Artful Dodger - Feb 2, 2005 1:56 pm (#1119 of 1121)
I think Hollywand means Pi, which is an irrational number indeed, while Phi, as far as I know, is just a greek letter. As a scientist in spe, I've stumbled across the number Pi quite a few times, but I don't think anything of that is related to Harry Potter.
P.S. thank you so much for the friendly welcome I received on my first post here, I really appreciated it!
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Denise P. - Feb 2, 2005 6:52 pm (#1120 of 1121)
In the past few days, some concerns have been expressed regarding this thread. These concerns cover several different areas and came to our attention from several sources. The Hosts of this Forum are currently looking into the situation to determine what, if anything, should be done.
To prevent any more misunderstandings, I am TEMPORARILY closing this thread until a decision can be made regarding its future.
If you have any specific questions, other than "What are you talking about?" or "Who said what?", feel free to email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- - - - - - - - - -
Denise P. - Feb 5, 2005 6:43 pm (#1121 of 1121)
After looking at many factors and much discussion, the decision has been made to archive this thread and use it as a reference area only.
A second thread has already been established and the discussion of alchemy can continue there.
Denise P., "Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part II)" #, 5 Feb 2005 6:40 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Archangel, the website you provided is most interesting.
Among the animals sacred to Artemis are deer, dogs, and bees.
The deer is closely associated with James Potter. The Dog is closely associated with Sirius Black. The bee could possibly be associated with Albus Dumbledore. In that Dumbledore's last name name is derived form the Old Englih word for bumblebee.
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zelmia - Jan 31, 2005 8:30 pm (#1102 of 1121)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Felicitations, Elanor! Et bonne chance! Tu sais que nous tous t'aiderons n'importe quel façon possible.
One thing that I think that stands out for me the most about the opening chapters of CS is that Hedwig has been locked in her cage for the entire month that Harry has been home. Apart from the obvious cruelty of this, Hedwig is Harry's touchstone with the Wizarding world while he is at #4.
Owls have become symbolic of Wisdom through the Goddess Athena who had an owl companion. She is known for many attributes through many myths, but one of the most prominent is Wisdom.
The Dursleys lock Hedwig in her cage - keeping Harry isolated. He is also barred - in this case literally - from the Wisdom of Dumbledore, McGonagall, etc.
Incidentally, the otter, of which Hollywand is so fond, can be a representation of Feminine Power, as well as (in some native american cultures) Earth and Water, Balanced Feminine Energy. How very appropriate indeed for our Hermione.
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 12:56 am (#1103 of 1121)
Zelmia, the owl-Athena-wisdom connection is simply fantastic. BTW, Athena's Roman name is Minerva! Know anyone by that name? Hehe
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 4:46 am (#1104 of 1121)
JKR updated her site and particularly the entry on owls. Now, it contains the Athena connection!!! I'm pretty sure when I checked it this morning (my morning, I think that's around night time or dawn to others) it did not contain that!
I saw the witch of the month. She reminded me of a young McG for some reason. Thought her wand looks like a candle...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 10:30 am (#1105 of 1121)
Some notes on the new information given on J.K. Rowling's website:
Note 1: The information on new witch of the month indicates that Artemisia Lufkin lived to 70 or 71 years of age depending on her month of birth.
Note 2: The revised article on owls J.K. Rowling points out that Snowy Owls are also called Ghost Owls
Note 3: The information about sponsoring an owl was deleted,
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Elanor - Feb 1, 2005 12:37 pm (#1106 of 1121)
Merci beaucoup Zelmia! I loved what you wrote about Hedwig's cage, these are great details to notice and a powerful image for the beginning of the book.
Great work about Artemis, Archangel and Nathan! It is such an appropriate name for a ministry of magic! Funny to find Artemis on the "front page" and Athena in the new article... Should Artemis be Minerva's ancestor? It is also funny that the information about the owls wasn't the same yesterday, hmm... BTW, I loved what Jo said about owls flying in the daylight at the beginning of PS.
I've read something really interesting on the CoS clues thread. Meanie Mom was saying that "treacle" we often see in CoS has other meanings than just being a pudding. It comes from the old French word "Triacle". I nearly felt off my chair when I read that! My dictionary doesn't mention this (okay, tomorrow I buy the Oxford dictionary!) but this is huge!
"Triacle" or "theriaca" was also known as "thériaque" here, and this is something I am really familiar with. Actually, thériaque comes from a Greek word meaning "wild beast".
It was a famous medicine, used during the Middle-Ages and the 17th and 18th centuries. Each hospital dispensary had its own "recipe" for its theriaque and some were more famous than others. It needed a lot of different ingredients. It was supposed to be efficient on a lot of deseases, but especially snakes' bites.
Meanie Mom was saying that it could be a hint about the basilisk biting Harry. I do agree, and I think it could also well be a hint about Harry parselmouth skills. Treacle comes very often in the other books as well, being one of Harry's favourite dessert, it could be a veiled reference to the fact that he is protected from another snake's bite, far more dangerous than the Basilisk, Voldemort... We should really notice every mention of "treacle" in the books, don't you think so?
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Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 5:06 pm (#1107 of 1121)
Woah! And here I was offering treacle tarts to everyone in this forum...
Treacle tarts were fairly mentioned in OoP as well. Maybe that's because of the connection between Harry and Voldemort has become more pronounced -- the snake attack vision, Voldemort's Sirius mind trick, and Harry's possession in MoM.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 8:23 pm (#1108 of 1121)
Hey all! Just posted this on the Snape thread, but thought I'd trot it by ya'll too.
"Sinistra (witch) Professor at Hogwarts, Astronomy department. The question of Sinistra's gender came up during the translation of OP into Portugese. The translation team contacted the Lexicon for an answer to the question, but I couldn't answer for sure, since it never says one way or the other in the books. I suggested that they contact Rowling, which they did. Rowling's reps responded that Sinistra was in fact a woman. - ed. "sinistra" = Italian for "with the left hand" "Sinistra" = the name of a magnitude 3.5 star in the constellation Ophiuchus, the Serpent Handler. "Ophiuchus represented Aesculapius, the ancient healer, believed to be the ancestor of Hippocrates (born 460 BCE) the great physician of Cos, and Serpens was his symbol of healing. The serpent is the symbol for the poison (venom) that can both cure and kill, Ophiuchus controls it and uses it to heal. This same snake is found on the symbol of medicine worldwide, the staff of the god Mercury, the caduceus, and both these constellations are associated with it, the caduceus shows two snakes coiling around a central rod surmounted by two wings of the bird on top." (from The Fixed Stars website)"
Interesting, yes?
- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 8:34 pm (#1109 of 1121)
TBE, that is most curious indeed it could give rise to a set of some noteworthy connections and possibilities. In Greek mythology Hebe had a close relationship with her brothers especially Ares. Snape can definitely said to have temper akin to Ares.
- - - - - - - - - -
TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 8:55 pm (#1110 of 1121)
Elanor! Please forgive me, I posted before I caught up reading. (Looked at posts, 44, oh my, no! This idea has to get posted!)
CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, thank you Nathan. I thought it had some very interesting possibilities and connections, not just to our potions master.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hollywand - Feb 1, 2005 9:14 pm (#1111 of 1121)
Twinks, nice to see you here. What an awesome detail to bring in on Sinistra, with lots of possibilities. It's connected to the constellations, which is a pattern Rowling is using for a lot of the Slytherin characters, it's connected to the generalized sense of well being in the body, which Rowling seems to be using Hogwarts as a metaphor for the body. It's connected to Mercury and the Healing Arts. Connected to the snake in a very ambiguous relationship. It's a real nexus. Nice sleuthing!
Sinistra relates to a preference for hand use; left-handed. Hmmm. Could she be the new DaDa teacher? Could she be Severus' companion animal? Hmmm. Could she be a "good Slytherin"?
**************** I'm reading a book on Phi, an irrational number connected to the Golden Section, (Schnitt in German). I'm not sure if the group is ready for a lot of references to geometry, but it's loaded with references to alchemy, the quintessence, and the dodecahedron in nature. Let me know if you want to take a gander down dodecahedron lane.
- - - - - - - - - -
TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 1, 2005 9:28 pm (#1112 of 1121)
LOL, gandering down twelve lanes at once when I can hardly stumble down a well-marked path? I'll pass for now, thank you!
- - - - - - - - - -
Archangel - Feb 1, 2005 9:33 pm (#1113 of 1121)
Very interesting indeed TBE! Thanks for sharing this wonderful info! Another wonderful food for thought...
Just to wrap-up the whole stars thing I've been harping on for the past couple of days, I looked into the possibility of the planet Mars being part of any constellation because of the references made by Firenze.
In OoP, he pointed the class to look at a red star directly above Harry and went on about the upcoming war and Mars. This is quite weird because Mars is a planet and not a star and I thought he might be referring to the presence of both a red star and Mars.
I'm not so sure if that's ever happened but guess what it does and it had! The two red "stars" were visible in the Scorpius (Scorpion) constellation! This ties in perfectly with the Voldemort-Orion-Scorpion connection I mentioned a couple of days ago.
Also interesting to note is the red star reference. The red star is called Antares. The name means "Rival of Mars" (Anti-Ares!) and it is described as "fiery red and emerald green". It is located near the center of the Scorpion constellation and is sometimes referred to as the "Heart of the Scorpion" or simply, "The Heart". It is often described as being more visible than Mars and so it becomes understandable why a lot of people confuse it with the planet when they're close together!
It's funny how heart-red-emerald green-rival of Mars come together from a single red star and now be connected to Orion, Artemis, and the Scorpion.
I feel like a Centaur - looking to the stars for answers. LOL! I keep an open mind though since centaurs still err in their "reading" of stars and I certainly have no time to burn sage and herbs to be sure!
- - - - - - - - - -
Hollywand - Feb 1, 2005 9:58 pm (#1114 of 1121)
Fantastic post, Archangel. Really nice connections. Book Six will be all about the war. On another thread someone mentioned that Sirius describes historic pre-Harry conditions to the trio, "Voldemort is strong. Noone knows who is on his side and who is not, the Ministry is in disarray. The killings and torturings are still going on, muggles are dying...." and that the wizarding world is back in precisely the same position at the close of Order of the Phoenix.......isn't that interesting?
- - - - - - - - - -
Archangel - Feb 2, 2005 1:38 am (#1115 of 1121)
That's very good observation! Well, history repeats itself and... "what goes around, comes around, what comes up, must come down, it's called karma baby and it goes around" OK, I'll stop now.
- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 2, 2005 9:38 am (#1116 of 1121)
Severus seems to me in addition to being crafty like Hephaestus, he sems to have and Ares like temperament in that he is prone to fits of rage. This comparision is borne out by Snape's conduct in PoA after Sirius escaped. The rage and malice demonstrated by Snape on that occassion are reminiscent of Ares. In his fits of rage the only one immune to his wrath was his sister Hebe. Perhaps, Snape like Ares has a female foil who is isimmune to his wrath and can calm him.
- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 2, 2005 10:58 am (#1117 of 1121)
Here arre some links on Hebe
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- - - - - - - - - -
Elanor - Feb 2, 2005 1:18 pm (#1118 of 1121)
I love to see the cauldron bubbling like that!
TBE, thanks! It's nice to see you here! The connections you made about Sinistra are fantastic, the more because she is the astronomy teacher. I've searched a little about it and this is what I found:
- Sinistra, before being an Italian word, was a Latin word for "the left hand" but not only. It reminded me of what Jo wrote about owls on her site because "sinistra" meant "good omen" for the Romans, but "bad omen" for the Greeks. She chose the Greek meaning about the owls (a lucky sight), I wonder if she did the same for Sinistra.
- Generally the "bad omen" meaning of Sinistra was the most popular. It gave the word "sinister", "sinistre" in French, in which it means both "sinister" (bad omen) and gloomy, grim. We never really saw her in the books, she is merely mentioned. I wonder if we should see her as another grim figure in the next books... The meanings "left hand" and "sinister" can even melt: we have a familiar saying in French that comes from that and says "passer l'arme à gauche", it means "to die" but literally it means "to put the weapon in your left hand" (not a good idea... Hell was represented on the left side of scuptures or paintings during the Middle-Ages).
-Traditionally, the right hand was associated to daily work and the left hand to magic.
- The right and the left are also alchemical symbols since they are another fundamental couple of opposites. This is interesting I think because, if Professor Sinistra becomes more important sometime, it is likely that we will find out who her "dextera" (right hand) is. From their conjunction, their meeting in the story, could come something positive...
Archangel, I loved what you posted about Mars! And I agree, Hollywand, history repeats itself. It reminds me of what we said about smells some times ago. Smells are very important in alchemy. During the Nigredo process, the stone is supposed to smell very bad, then it smells better during the White process but smells really bad again at the beginning of the red process, before smelling really good when the stone is finally created. Voldemort's "bad smell" disappeared when the AK curse rebounded but it is back again, let's hope that this time, it is the last time before the "stone is created", that is to say before Harry can finish him off!
Hollywand, I would love to know what you found about Phi (if it is not too complicated since I am hopeless in geometry), it could have very interesting connections with the architecture meanings we found, don't you think so?
PS: so, no more treacle tart for us Archangel? A pity...
- - - - - - - - - -
The Artful Dodger - Feb 2, 2005 1:56 pm (#1119 of 1121)
I think Hollywand means Pi, which is an irrational number indeed, while Phi, as far as I know, is just a greek letter. As a scientist in spe, I've stumbled across the number Pi quite a few times, but I don't think anything of that is related to Harry Potter.
P.S. thank you so much for the friendly welcome I received on my first post here, I really appreciated it!
- - - - - - - - - -
Denise P. - Feb 2, 2005 6:52 pm (#1120 of 1121)
In the past few days, some concerns have been expressed regarding this thread. These concerns cover several different areas and came to our attention from several sources. The Hosts of this Forum are currently looking into the situation to determine what, if anything, should be done.
To prevent any more misunderstandings, I am TEMPORARILY closing this thread until a decision can be made regarding its future.
If you have any specific questions, other than "What are you talking about?" or "Who said what?", feel free to email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- - - - - - - - - -
Denise P. - Feb 5, 2005 6:43 pm (#1121 of 1121)
After looking at many factors and much discussion, the decision has been made to archive this thread and use it as a reference area only.
A second thread has already been established and the discussion of alchemy can continue there.
Denise P., "Alchemy Symbols: Silver to Gold/ 4 Temperaments (Part II)" #, 5 Feb 2005 6:40 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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