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Mrs. Cole archived thread
Elanor Wed May 11, 2011 9:49 am
Mrs. Cole
Note: I added the word "archived thread" to the name of the thread because forumotion wouldn't accept "Mrs. Cole" only (the title of the topic must be at least 10 characters long. Elanor
Meoshimo - Dec 3, 2006 1:50 pm
Edited by S.E. Jones Dec 8, 2006 5:55 pm
She is a character that appears in only one scene in the Harry Potter series yet, to me, she is intriguing. She seems stong, responsible, and very smart. There are a few details about her and her interaction with Dumbledore that I find interesting:
What did Dumbledore do to the black piece of paper when he waved his wand over it? Did he magically write an explaination of Tom, magic, and Hogwarts? Or did it have some sort of enchantment attatched to it to make Mrs. Cole let Dumbledore take Tom?
I don't have the books, but if I remember correctly, Dumbledore did the blank-paper-thing, and when Mrs Cole looked up from reading it, there was a bottle of gin and two glasses that she was sure was not there a minute ago, but she accepted it and offered Dumbledore a glass. Was the bottle and glasses that Dumbledore conjured while she was distracted his way of proving what was written on the paper?
She lets Tom go to a school she has never heard of after a few minutes of polite converstation with a man she has never met before. Why? What was it that convinved her to trust Dumbledore?
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
Note: I added the word "archived thread" to the name of the thread because forumotion wouldn't accept "Mrs. Cole" only (the title of the topic must be at least 10 characters long. Elanor
Meoshimo - Dec 3, 2006 1:50 pm
Edited by S.E. Jones Dec 8, 2006 5:55 pm
She is a character that appears in only one scene in the Harry Potter series yet, to me, she is intriguing. She seems stong, responsible, and very smart. There are a few details about her and her interaction with Dumbledore that I find interesting:
What did Dumbledore do to the black piece of paper when he waved his wand over it? Did he magically write an explaination of Tom, magic, and Hogwarts? Or did it have some sort of enchantment attatched to it to make Mrs. Cole let Dumbledore take Tom?
I don't have the books, but if I remember correctly, Dumbledore did the blank-paper-thing, and when Mrs Cole looked up from reading it, there was a bottle of gin and two glasses that she was sure was not there a minute ago, but she accepted it and offered Dumbledore a glass. Was the bottle and glasses that Dumbledore conjured while she was distracted his way of proving what was written on the paper?
She lets Tom go to a school she has never heard of after a few minutes of polite converstation with a man she has never met before. Why? What was it that convinved her to trust Dumbledore?
Last edited by Elanor on Wed May 11, 2011 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Mrs. Cole (Post 1 to 62)
Elanor Wed May 11, 2011 9:50 am
journeymom - Dec 3, 2006 11:51 pm (#1 of 62)
And, she can hold her liquor. Dumbledore sizes her up gives her Gin. No tea for her.
I figure the paperwork Dd had was like Doctor Who's blank I.D. It shows the observer whatever they need to see. Or, his magical spell caused her to see whatever she thought she needed to see.
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Steve Newton - Dec 4, 2006 7:30 am (#2 of 62)
Librarian
I really can't see how we can solve this. You h ave listed just about all that we know and I don't see any obvious handles to grab.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 4, 2006 8:07 am (#3 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
More intriguing to me, she said about Merope, she was about my age and I had just started here at the time. Makes me wonder, is she married, with her own children? If she isn't how did she avoid having maternal instincts prevent her from treating Tom as anything other than one of her wards.
At one point as she guides Dumbledore to Tom's room, the narrative describes everything and the children being were very grey but other wise well taken care of.
It seems to me that a young woman, seeing a child born that she knows has no family, might become attached to that child if she spent all those years with him, supervising and in authority.
She said he didn't cry much. Did she hold him, cradle him, and provide human contact that infants need for proper maturation? Or did she do her duty, change him feed him, put him down and move on to the next kid?
And of course every summer that Tom came back, did she never ask any questions, was Tom so forbidding from the start that she was just glad to be shot of him in September? And the last one, did Tom ever try anything on her? Not before he knew he was "special" perhaps but certainly after his skills developed? Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything?
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journeymom - Dec 4, 2006 10:56 am (#4 of 62)
"Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything? " Oh, I'd doubt that very much. That was a demonstration of Dumbledore's skill and cunning. He's pretty manipulative when he needs to be. Rather Slytherin, sometimes. --Upon rereading this, it occures to me that this describes Tom Riddle as well. The difference is that Dumbledore got what he wanted not by frightening Mrs Cole, but by working with her, showing her what she thought was required.--
Mrs Cole strikes me as a Dickensien type character. Oliver Twist was an orphan, Pip from Great Expectations was an orphan and David Copperfield was separated from his mother and sent to a strict boarding school. All three characters had female caretakers who Mrs Cole puts me in mind of. She isn't at all cruel like some of the women in Dickens' stories, but efficient and unattached.
There is no mention that Mrs Cole had children of her own, so whether she did or not, it isn't supposed to be relevant. It's important that she didn't give him motherly attention and affection. I think JKR is saying Tom Riddle's personality is a result of nature and nurture, both.
I don't think Mrs Cole is important beyond the scene we see her in, and we won't meet her again. She exists to inform us about Tom's childhood. Nonetheless, I really like Mrs Cole. JKR painted a powerful, evocative picture with that one pensieve scene. And she created an interesting, sympathetic character in a relatively short passage.
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Choices - Dec 4, 2006 11:55 am (#5 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't really think her letting Tom go had anything to do with trusting Dumbledore. I think she was becoming very suspicious of Tom and his behavior and I believe she feared him. Dumbledore came along and offered to more or less take Tom off her hands and I think she jumped at the chance to be rid of him.
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vball man - Dec 4, 2006 2:10 pm (#6 of 62)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I thought that the paper was just paper. A diversion to distract attention from DD's wand hand...
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Meoshimo - Dec 4, 2006 7:38 pm (#7 of 62)
If I remember correctly, Dumbledore took out his wand while reaching for the paper, waved his wand once over it, and handed it to Mrs. Cole. While she was looking at it, we can assume that Dumbledore summoned the Gin bottle and glasses. I can't remember for sure if her eyes do the out-of-focus-or-momentary-glazed-look thing, but I'm pretty sure she swallows whatever it was she read and says something like "That seems to be in order."
I also think that she might be married, since everyone calls her 'Mrs. Cole'. But also, when I was a kid and had a teacher whose name prefix was 'Ms.' or 'Miss', we all tended to call them 'Mrs.', so who knows?
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Choices - Dec 4, 2006 7:51 pm (#8 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Mrs. Cole....."Who registered him? His parents?"
There was no doubt that Mrs. Cole was an inconveniently smart woman. Apparently Dumbledore thought so too, for Harry now saw him slip his wand out of the pocket of his velvet suit, at the same time picking up a piece of perfectly blank paper from Mrs. Cole's desktop.
"Here," said Dumbledore, waving his wand once as he passed her the piece of paper, "I think this will make everything clear."
Mrs. Cole's eyes slid out of focus and back again as she gazed intently at the blank paper for a moment.
"That seems perfectly in order," she said placidly, handing it back. Then her eyes fell upon the bottle of gin and two glasses that had certainly not been present a few seconds before.
"Er---may I offer you a glass of gin?" she said in an extra refined voice.
"Thank you very much," said Dumbledore, beaming.
From HBP - Ch. 13 - The Secret Riddle
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journeymom - Dec 4, 2006 9:06 pm (#9 of 62)
Thank you, Choices, for hunting that down and posting it!
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 4, 2006 11:39 pm (#10 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited by S.E. Jones Dec 8, 2006 5:57 pm
"Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything? " Oh, I'd doubt that very much.
Yes, but Voldemort is a cruel man with little consideration for anyone and a great love of power and dominance. Once he learns he can use his powers to control people how far would he go, with a mere muggle?
Mrs Cole strikes me as a Dickensien type character. She isn't at all cruel like some of the women in Dickens' stories, but efficient and unattached.
So is Voldemort!
There is no mention that Mrs Cole had children of her own, so whether she did or not, it isn't supposed to be relevant. It's important that she didn't give him motherly attention and affection. I think JKR is saying Tom Riddle's personality is a result of nature and nurture, both.
Yes, I agree that JK is showing factors in Tom's emotional developement. I can't help but think that his nature however, dominates, (he was an odd baby, didn't cry much). I think it is important that he didn't get much motherly affection too. The motherly affection was sorely missing from his birth mother, she tricked the father into the relationship, when the father took off so did she (I confess this is a bit had on Merope)===
I don't think Mrs Cole is important beyond the scene we see her in, and we won't meet her again. She exists to inform us about Tom's childhood. Nonetheless, I really like Mrs Cole. JKR painted a powerful, evocative picture with that one pensieve scene. And she created an interesting, sympathetic character in a relatively short passage.
JKR never throws anything out! Everyone makes a contribution. Minor characters mentioned in passing in one book come back to prove their worth time and again. ie Stan Shunpike, Mundugus, Mrs Figgs. I am still waiting for the Brazilian snake to come back even though it was a muggle snake.
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Laura W - Dec 5, 2006 3:32 am (#11 of 62)
"More intriguing to me, she said about Merope, she was about my age and I had just started here at the time. Makes me wonder, is she married, with her own children? If she isn't how did she avoid having maternal instincts prevent her from treating Tom as anything other than one of her wards." (Mrs. Sirius)
This woman ran an orphanage, right? *All* of the children in it were orphans. Parentless. I imagine she treated all of them the same. And she did not seem to treat them badly.
"It seems to me that a young woman, seeing a child born that she knows has no family, might become attached to that child if she spent all those years with him, supervising and in authority. (Mrs. Sirius)
Should she then have become emotionally attached to *all* the boys and girls who passed through her doors over the years? I guess she could have, but they are not really her own children ... and she is doing a good thing by taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!
As one who absolutely adores the works of Dickens, I do not see her as a Dickensian character at all. Of course she and the orphanage are not as good as loving parents would be for the children. That goes without saying. But I do not see her as a negative character in the series.
I'm guessing she tried as hard with Tom Riddle as with any of the others but, *very* early on, he started exhibiting very unpleasant characteristics which escalated quickly to, "He scares the other children" (Mrs. Cole - HBP) . And we know he stole.
I certainly do not blame Mrs. Cole for being glad that he - from age 11 on - would be away from the other children (and her) for part of each year at least.
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journeymom - Dec 5, 2006 9:11 am (#12 of 62)
" I can't help but think that his nature however, dominates..." I completely agree! Marvolo and Morphin were a genetic mess. Tom Riddle really was never treated cruelly. He was treated without affection, neutrally. Not all children who are unattached grow up to be power hungry, cruel, dark minded murderers.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 5, 2006 9:49 am (#13 of 62)
I wonder how much we will see of Mrs Cole in Book 7 as Harry hunts for the horcruxes.
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T Vrana - Dec 5, 2006 10:44 am (#14 of 62)
Yes, but Voldemort is a cruel man with little consideration for anyone and a great love of power and dominance. Once he learns he can use his powers to control people how far would he go, with a mere muggle? (mrs. sirius)
I think Tom would have been very careful not to use magic over the summers at the orphanage. He would not want to risk expulsion and detecting underage magic at a Muggle Orphanage would be easy enough for the MoM.
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juliebug - Dec 5, 2006 12:09 pm (#15 of 62)
Unless there are more memories of Mrs. Cole stashed away somewhere, I doubt that she will appear in book 7. The action of book 7 will take place about 55 years after Voldemort completed his 7 years at Hogwarts and about 62 years after Dumbledore met her and Tom Riddle. While an age was never given, she had to have been at least in her 20's back when Tom Riddle was 11 (and I suspect a bit older still) so the woman would be at least 82 years old (though as I said before, I suspect much older.) Chances are excellent that she is no longer living.
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Meoshimo - Dec 5, 2006 3:25 pm (#16 of 62)
And she was there when Riddle was born, so she would have had to have been in her thirties when Dumbledore met her.
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juliebug - Dec 5, 2006 4:18 pm (#17 of 62)
Forgot that part Thanks Meoshimo. So Mrs. Cole would be at least in her 90's and likely pushing 100. It's possible she's still living, but I don't think it's likely.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 5, 2006 11:46 pm (#18 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I believe that Merope was about 18 (age given in another chapter, The House of Gaunt) when she married and had her child. Mrs Coles describe Merope as being not much older than herself.
Should she then have become emotionally attached to *all* the boys and girls who passed through her doors over the years? I guess she could have, but they are not really her own children ... and she is doing a good thing by taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!
Precisely, Laura. JK makes clear that the children are well treated at this home even if it is not the top of the line materials. It may be a bit grey but all is clean and well card for. Children are taken out on excursion. Mrs Coles tends to their hurts and injuries,she is aware and seems to nurture of all of them. She seems to hold no particular warmth or affection for Tom. Also the way she described it, is seems to me Tom may have been a longer resident then the other kids there. "no one ever came looking for him" leads me to think the other kids pass through spend sometime but then find long lost relatives.
This is why I thought that perhaps she might have had special affection for Tom
Nothing from what we see of her leads me to blame Mrs Cole for the lack of emotion between Mrs Cole and Riddle. He stared out as "a funny baby...hardly ever cried.."
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Choices - Dec 6, 2006 11:01 am (#19 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I really do not get the impression that Mrs. Cole had any special affection for Tom at all. She seems to think him odd from the get go. He was a funny baby, hardly ever crying, and she seemed to think he was strange and his behavior definitely suspicious. If anything, I think she thought him less lovable than the other children, a loner who had little emotion and who threatened the other children. I believe she had little time for interacting with the children and even less for Tom. I feel sure the orphanage was under-funded and understaffed, so Mrs. Cole was too busy to expend time and energy on any of the kids. She took care of their important needs - food, clothes and illness - and had no time for anything else.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 6, 2006 1:17 pm (#20 of 62)
I agree Choices, and would be willing to go one step further and say that she was a bit fearful of him.
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Meoshimo - Dec 6, 2006 7:04 pm (#21 of 62)
Fearful in a vague sort of way.
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Choices - Dec 6, 2006 7:32 pm (#22 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I agree. I think she saw the potential for even greater "evil" than he had already displayed and feared what he might do as he grew older and stronger.
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Laura W - Dec 7, 2006 2:10 am (#23 of 62)
She certainly jumped at the chance to get rid of him, even for part of the year, when DD offered it! (Not that I blame her.) Before telling DD, "He scares the other children," and "There have been incidents ... nasty things..," she made absolutely sure that *whatever* she told her visitor about Tom, the boy would be going to the school.
I think a couple of you are just a tiny bit hard on Mrs. Cole. If I had to run a whole orphanage and had very good suspicion that one of my charges killed another child's rabbit and caused two other children to go "strange" after being taken into a cave with him (not to mention other odd things going on), I would be kind of afraid of him too.
And I think it was very responsible of her to not want the other children to be exposed to Riddle any more than they absolutely had to. I wouldn't exactly call it "loving" towards the other children, but I think it shows some caring for their welfare and well-being beyond just their basic physical needs.
I agree that she was undoubtedly overworked and underpaid, as well. Remember, on top of everything, we are talking about England in the 1920s here. Very little was known about child psychology or how to deal with anti-social behaviour (not that anything would have worked on the future Lord Voldy-Thing, anyway).
Laura
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Thom Matheson - Dec 7, 2006 9:46 am (#24 of 62)
And, she loved her Gin. Do you Tangaray?
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Fawkes Egg - Dec 7, 2006 1:38 pm (#25 of 62)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
Very little was known about child psychology or how to deal with anti-social behaviour (not that anything would have worked on the future Lord Voldy-Thing, anyway).
What, you don't think all the trouble with Voldy could have been avoided if we'd had ASBOs back then?!
Heehee...
As Harry observed, "The children seemed well cared for, but there was no denying that it was a grim place in which to grow up."
I think this shows that Mrs. Cole did her best with limited resources, and the fact that she was bothered about Tom scaring the other children shows that she did care for them, even if she didn't always have the time and energy to show it.
(for non-UK Forum members, an ASBO = Anti-Social Behaviour Order. Generally considered a useless slap on the wrist issued to teens with criminal tendencies).
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azi - Dec 7, 2006 1:57 pm (#26 of 62)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
What, you don't think all the trouble with Voldy could have been avoided if we'd had ASBOs back then?!
**chuckles**
I agree with Harry on this one. Orphanages weren't nice places to be. They tried - taking the kids to the seaside must have been a costly effort - but it still doesn't replace growing up with parents or foster parents.
At the end of the day, what could Mrs Cole do about Voldie's behaviour? Sending him to his room wouldn't exactly work would it? That could have made things worse, if he could do what she suspected he'd done before. She didn't have the evidence to prove he'd done anything either, no matter if she suspected it.
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Laura W - Dec 7, 2006 8:20 pm (#27 of 62)
"but it still doesn't replace growing up with parents or foster parents." (azi)
I assume you mean "it still doesn't replace growing up with loving parents or loving foster parents," azi .
Look at Snape. Well, we don't know all the details yet but, from what Harry saw in Snape's mind during that Occlumency lesson, Severus grew up with his natural parents and his childhood was hardly happy. And the best example of a situation where it was NOT preferable to be raised by the two people one was born to is Sirius Black. He had a mother a father a brother and a large extended family. Yet, he was raised by totally hateful parents (hateful to anyone non-pure-blood *and* to their eldest son). Living there was a total nightmare to Sirius, which is why he escaped to a happy family unit (the Potters) at age 16 and went out on his own at age 17. Even in OoP, when Sirius was a grown man in his thirties and his mother was dead, his "dear old Mum" lost no opportunity to loudly berate him in front of others and to and call him vile names from her portrait.
Foster home being preferable to an orphanage where you are taken care of? Not necessarily. Sure, if the foster home is one where the child is supported and respected. But what about the Dursleys? Harry was *far more* badly abused in a so-called normal home situation than Tom was in an orphanage.
Laura
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 1:23 am (#28 of 62)
Harry was *far more* badly abused in a so-called normal home situation than Tom was in an orphanage. Laura
I don't know that we can say that as we have not seen any interactions between the staff and Tom.
As for the 'normal home' situation...The Dursley's home may be normal to us muggles, but it would not be considered a normal home in the wizarding world. DD even says that would Harry have been placed in a wizard home he would have grown up a 'prince.' I don't think we can call the Dursley's home 'normal.'
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Laura W - Dec 14, 2006 5:47 am (#29 of 62)
I guess what I meant by normal was a female mother, a male father and a child which was born to them. Perhaps I should have used the word "traditional" rather than "normal."
"I don't know that we can say that as we have not seen any interactions between the staff and Tom." (TheSaint)
As I wrote before, "and she is taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!"
Canon:
Tom Riddle was called "Tom" and "Tom Riddle" by Mrs. Cole when she spoke to DD. The Dursley adults always called Harry, "boy" or "you."
From his second birthday on, Harry *never* had a birthday present or card - except for a coat hanger or a piece of tissue or Uncle Vernon's gnarled socks - from the Dursleys. He was never bought clothes that fit but wore only Dudley's way-too-big castoffs. Obviously the children at the orphanage (and we have no reason to believe that did not include Riddle) did get presents such as mouth organs, yo-yo's and such, since Tom stole them from the others.
Harry was never included on any outing whatsoever - not even a trip to the zoo or swimming pool - until he just short of 11 years old, and even then, he was bought a cheap lemon ice when the other boys had big chocolate ice creams; but had to stay with Mrs. Figg and cats. All the children at the orphanage - including Tom Riddle - were taken on holiday. Like to a certain seaside where a certain cave resided. (wink)
The 10-year-old Tom Riddle had his own room in the orphanage. The one DD met him in. It undoubtedly was not fancy but had a real bed and a bureau in which to put his clothes and other possessions. Until Harry Potter turned 11-years-old he slept in a cramped, windowless cupboard under the stairs with the spiders; and was locked up there as punishment.
Mrs. Cole expressed sympathy to DD for the girl who brought the baby Tom to her. The Dursleys spoke ill and disrespectfully of Harry's dead parents in front of him (and aunt Marge) on *every* occasion they spoke of them from the time Harry came to them right until the end of Book Six.
Tom was allowed to be friends with the other children in the orphanage - although he didn't want to. Harry was *never* allowed to have friends when he went to the Muggle school because Dudley and his gang always threatened to beat up of the other kids who wanted to befriend his cousin or to pick him to be part of a sports team. This is canon in PS.
Harry's glasses were always broken because his face was used as a punching bag by Dudley and Piers and the third member of that gang (Malcolm, was it?). And as late as HBP, when Harry is a few weeks short of turning 16, we read, "Harry ran down the stais two at a time, coming to an abrupt halt several steps from the bottom, as long experience had taught him to remain out of arm's reach of his uncle whenever possible." When DD goes in to talk to Tom, there is no mention of young Riddle being too skinny or in any other way physically ill or injured.
The charges at the orphanage were allowed to have animals to take care of and love. A certain unfortunate rabbit comes to mind. If the other children could own pets, I see no reason to believe Tom couldn't have kept one as well. From age 15 months on, Harry had nobody and nothing to love, nor to love him! Aunt Petunia would not have allowed so much as a goldfish in the house - most particularly if that "abnormal" and "unnatural" child had wanted one.
And so on, and so on.
Laura
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 10:08 am (#30 of 62)
Mrs. Cole was not the one doing that. The state provided money for education, clothes, etc. I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either. Administration of funds hardly makes one 'kind and loving.' She was doing her job.
Dumbledore knows when he leaves Harry in the Dursley's care that he is subjecting him to precisely what occurred. It is a price he was willing to pay to keep him safe.
Tom hated his name so it was probably a bit annoying to hear it from her.
The presents in question may not be birthday presents but the 'take the orphange to sit on Santa's lap outing.
The orphanage children were provided outings, by the state, but Harry was not exactly locked in a closet 24-7.
Riddle may have had his own room simply because the other children were terrified of him...I am sure it was not because they all had them. He was sort confinded for the sake of the others.
Basically...neither is a pleasure cruise and both would be considered abnormal, both doing harm and both having thier effects.
Both are put into a position suitable for the trials ahead. Only Harry is capable of withstanding the effects and remaining pure at heart.
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Choices - Dec 14, 2006 10:41 am (#31 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think if Harry had gone to live with a wizard family, he would have been treated like a "prince" only because of who he was - the "boy who lived" and the one who caused Voldemort to go away. I don't get the impression that wizard children are ordinarily treated like princes and princesses. Harry was special and would have been treated like royalty because he did a very great thing for the wizarding world.
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 12:57 pm (#32 of 62)
Yes, that is my thought too.
Had he gone to a wizarding family without his reputation, they would have not had the prejudice the Dursley's did and would have known what was going on when strange things happened around him, and so would he for that matter.
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Chemyst - Dec 14, 2006 3:41 pm (#33 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either.
That sounds a little harsh; especially because no one ever claimed Mrs. Cole purchased gifts from her own money. Mrs. Cole was responsible for seeing that the simple toys that were provided were distributed fairly. Petunia did not even rise to that basic standard.
I don't think the point is who or which agent bought the items. The point is that efforts were made to give the children in the orphanage some basic humanizing items and experiences. The contrast is that Harry, even though placed with his blood relatives and living in a single-family house, was still living at a level of emotional support that was even less than what the state provided. That has to be abysmal. You are correct that "Harry was not exactly locked in a closet 24-7." He was allowed out to cook & clean. At other times he could leave the house so as not to be underfoot.
As far as emotional "normalcy" goes, Harry had one whopping difference. Within the orphanage, most of the children received fairly even treatment, and what funds were spent for their welfare were distributed equally. Harry, on the other hand, did have a 24/7 in-his-face example of seeing his cousin get thirty gifts of 'play station quality' to his single toothpick. The orphans lives may not have been a bed of roses, but they were not subjected to such blatant unbalanced cruelty either.
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journeymom - Dec 14, 2006 5:35 pm (#34 of 62)
"I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either. "
She didn't buy them a house, food, clothing or medicine with her own money, either.
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Soul Search - Dec 14, 2006 6:00 pm (#35 of 62)
Every now and then I run across a debate about how much of a role genetics or upbringing play in how someone turns out. Both sides seem to have good arguments and evidence.
I think what we are seeing with series characters is JKR expressing the side of genetic destiny.
Tom Riddle is decended from the Gaunts. Bad genes. Tom Riddle would have become Voldemort even if his father had raised him from a baby in all the wealth and luxury he could have.
Harry Potter is from good stock (but we know little of the Potter side, as yet) and would turn out to be the hero no matter how he was raised ... and in spite how he was raised.
I think JKR expresses this genetic destiny, to a lesser degree, with Draco Malfoy and the Weasleys (except Percy, the git.)
She has also made a statement about prejudice and judging people by their heritage with her "pure-blood," "half-blood," and "muggle-born" designations and Dumbledore's statements, particularly the one to Fudge at the end of GoF. She is clearly on the side of not being prejudiced.
Bit of a conflict, there. Genetic destiny for some characters, "be all you can be" for others.
I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 14, 2006 11:21 pm (#36 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way.
It goes back to that basic -nature verse nurture- question. As Laura W pointed out out in her post, Riddle was raised in an environment where his basic emotional needs were provided for, even catered to more than Harry's. While it may not have been lavish, support was given. Harry was actually discouraged from the opportunity for normal emotional growth.
Yet, despite the deprivations, Harry has always taken the human contact approach. His very first opportunity to make a friend he grabbed (Ron). He instantly bonds with the entire Weasley family. Mrs Weasley becomes a parental figure in book 2, and Ginny becomes a family member to protect. Mr Weasley is an authority figure to trust in the third book.
Riddle's first contact that we see where can bond with someone, he instantly rejects (Dumbledore). Other opportunities he had to form a human contact, he uses to terrorize (kids in cave).
Harry's upbringing could have told him to not trust anyone. Tom's could have said, "yes, there are people out there who care". The only true difference I see is that Harry apparently was conceived in love and and raised in his first year, with love. Voldemort was conceived in deceit and vanity. His first year could easily have been of a young woman who grows to raise a "special" orphan verse a woman that provided institutionally adequate care for a "funny" baby that did not require much attention.
In my earlier post I mention Mrs Cole's age. Not all orphans necessarily come into the institution in infancy and certainly not all are born there with no family to ever claim him. So Tom has the possible opportunity to be a special child with whom Mrs Cole, and might bond for that reason.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 15, 2006 12:14 am (#37 of 62)
Mre S, that is about as clear and succinct as I have heard. Well written.
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Choices - Dec 15, 2006 10:52 am (#38 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I hate to say it, but I do not see Tom Riddle "bonding" with anyone. He was and is a loner who seems to trust no one. Mrs. Cole, if anything, seemed to be a little afraid of Tom and thought him strange and possibly cruel to the other children. I see no reason that she might want to bond with him. I think she was eager to be rid of him because she feared he would become even more of a behavior problem as he got older.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 15, 2006 11:59 am (#39 of 62)
Spot on Choices.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 15, 2006 3:10 pm (#40 of 62)
Let it snow!
Choices --I think if Harry had gone to live with a wizard family, he would have been treated like a "prince" only because of who he was - the "boy who lived" and the one who caused Voldemort to go away.--
You might also add to that that, even without being the "boy who lived", he may have been raised as a little prince because of who he was in terms of being the sole heir to a wealthy, pureblooded family. It seems, even with all the halfbloods and Muggle-borns now in the wizarding world, that blood status does mean something to their world at large. Add to that wealth and you have kids who are raised to be a little pampered and who exhibit the cocky attitude we see in characters like Sirius, James, and Draco. I'm not saying that Sirius and James were brats, as I think there's a difference between being pampered and a brat, that mainly being the values they are taught. (So, the difference would be in a kid wanting a broom and saying "gee, I'd really like a broom like that, mum" and knowing they're going to get it and saying "I want that, buy it for me now".)
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Anna L. Black - Dec 16, 2006 1:00 pm (#41 of 62)
"I hate to say it, but I do not see Tom Riddle "bonding" with anyone. He was and is a loner who seems to trust no one. Mrs. Cole, if anything, seemed to be a little afraid of Tom and thought him strange and possibly cruel to the other children. I see no reason that she might want to bond with him. I think she was eager to be rid of him because she feared he would become even more of a behavior problem as he got older. - Choices
Yes, but this is the picture as we see it when Tom is 11 years old. Why couldn't Mrs. Cole get attached to him when he was still a new-born? (And a quiet one, which is a bonus ) The answer is probably "for literary reasons" JKR has. But I actually think she contradicts herself when showing us that Tom was ill disposed right from the start. Every time I think of his childhood, I'm not sure what I believe - wheter it was nature or nurture that made him what he is. It just doesn't fit anything else in the books...
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Detail Seeker - Dec 16, 2006 3:20 pm (#42 of 62)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Sahah, you wrote: You might also add to that that, even without being the "boy who lived", he may have been raised as a little prince because of who he was in terms of being the sole heir to a wealthy, pureblooded family.
In this situation, Harry need not have remained the sole heir. James an Lily were still young, so siblings might have come. But that was not to be.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 16, 2006 11:35 pm (#43 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Why couldn't Mrs. Cole get attached to him when he was still a new-born? (And a quiet one, which is a bonus ) The answer is probably "for literary reasons" JKR has. But I actually think she contradicts herself when showing us that Tom was ill disposed right from the start.
Anna, I am not sure I understand your comment. If I understand it correctly, you see it that Mrs Cole didn't attach to Baby Tom only because JK employed a litarary method, shortcut or perhaps and error? Is that correct?
I thought they didn't bond because right from the start Tom's personality was such that he did not wish for human cantact and interactions, he has not trust of others. I thought the JK took the trouble to have Mrs Coles say that Merope was about her age to stress how very possible it would have been for her to bond with the infant born as she watch in her orphanage.
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Laura W - Dec 17, 2006 5:27 pm (#44 of 62)
"Harry's upbringing could have told him to not trust anyone. Tom's could have said, "yes, there are people out there who care". The only true difference I see is that Harry apparently was conceived in love and and raised in his first year, with love. Voldemort was conceived in deceit and vanity. His first year could easily have been of a young woman who grows to raise a "special" orphan verse a woman that provided institutionally adequate care for a "funny" baby that did not require much attention." (Mrs. Sirius)
I do not completely disagree with you here. However - and this is not taking away from what you wrote above -, Dumbledore obviously feels that choices were involved here too. To some extent, at least. Tom's choices and Harry's choices.
Dumbledore - who has complete knowledge of how Riddle lived and what he did while living in the orphanage, and all about his family history (both from what Mrs. Cole tells him and from the scene with Bob Ogden in the Pensieve) on both the Gaunt and the Riddle sides - feels Tom *had* choices in what direction he took.
From HBP, Chapter 20: "The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom ... I wish I could." "Force you to make repayment for your crimes." That sure sounds like DD puts the responsibility for the life Riddle has led since leaving Hogwarts on Riddle himself. I mean, DD doesn't exactly say something like, "What you've been doing has been very wrong, Tom, but I know you couldn't help it because you never had a loving mother or loving mother-substitute."
And regarding how Harry turned out, DD says in HBP, p.476 (Raincoast), "Yes, Harry, you can love. Which given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing."
"I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way." (Soul Search)
Heh, heh. I'd say Tom definitely had more of an effect on her life than she did on his. He has a habit of doing that, in one form or another, on everyone he comes into contact with, doesn't he?
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Dec 17, 2006 11:04 pm (#45 of 62)
Jo is contradicting herself about choices, and she's using Mrs. Cole to back her up. Riddle was different from the start, even as a baby. He was doomed from birth to be a loner, at the very least because of what his parents did. That doesn't show much choice.
And I think the wizarding world leaving him completely unsupervised until the age of eleven was insane. No wonder he thought he was special. Don't they keep track of orphaned wizarding children at all? I can see Harry having to stay at the Dursleys for the blood protection, but why couldn't they have gotten Tom some guidance? Even at age eleven, Dumbledore wouldn't even tell him the truth about his mother being the magical one. I think finding out that his father was the muggle, and his mother the magic one was the one who died may well have pushed Tom over the edge permanently.
Even Dumbledore coming to speak to Mrs. Cole left him no choice. He told Tom he could come to Hogwarts or not, but Dumbledore had already promised Mrs. Cole he'd be taking Tom off her hands.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 18, 2006 12:42 am (#46 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Dumbledore obviously feels that choices were involved here too. To some extent, at least. Tom's choices and Harry's choices.
"I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way." (Soul Search)
Laura, I do agree that there are choices on both Harry and Voldemorts' part. Harry could easily choose to hate, hate muggles, hate Voldemort and the world for wrongs done to him. He certainly did not have many good examples of not being bitter and hostile. Early on Harry is asked what it is like living with muggles. He say something to the effect that it's terrible, but then modifies, and fairly says that it was awful with his aunt and uncle.
Harry bonds with Hagrid, he makes friends with Ron and then Hermione, he finds it in his heart to give Sirius a moment to explain himself, he even save -Wormtail-. These are all choices on his part.
We see less with Tom-Voldemort, so here I rely on my own experiences a bit. Voldemort is basically raised by Mrs. Cole from birth. This is a woman who cared enough to remain in a very difficult job for years. (I will testify that raising children is extremely difficult).
I will also say that while raising children is difficult, it has rewards that makes it all worthwhile. One is experiencing the magical charm of children. How many times have I not said to my kids "you are lucky you are cute" "I wouldn't keep you if you weren't so cute"? I am not unique in this sentiment. Kids can do the worst things possible and yet parents still forgive and then love them.
This however is not just a sentiment expressed for biological children. My mother had foster kids. I had no investment in these kids but knowing they lived with my mother, I did start to care for them greatly. I found them to be, cute and charming. I bought them gifts, took them to the movies and when my mother passed away, I took them in at great cost to my health and marriage. Although it did not work out, I stayed in touch with this kids even after they left my home.
Tom had every opportunity over the years to work charm on Mrs. Cole. he did not have to remain the funny baby that didn't cry much. Charm can easily be learned if one is not innately born to it. Voldemort choose only to have a hold on people of power and fear. He could easily choose to play with the other kids rabbit. Maybe do funny tricks like making it turn colors. Life is a constant opportunity to make a new decision, start all over again, right this minute.
Tom continues to use power to terrorize and control. Many alcoholics say they have no control over their addiction. However, they can choose to go into treatment and recovery, even if all their family and ancestors were alcoholics. They can stay in recovery if they choose to get the help to change. No matter what their family genetics, alcoholics can make decision that take them in different direction then their seeming destiny. Tom could too.
(My apologies to alcoholics if I have mangled the language or terminology)
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Laura W - Dec 18, 2006 1:03 am (#47 of 62)
Beautiful post, Mrs. Sirius. We may not be in agreement on every single tiny detail re this issue (we're not, in fact), but in the main I don't think we're way far apart either.
laura
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HPEnthusist - Dec 31, 2006 9:11 am (#48 of 62)
About the Brazillian Snake, I think it was just in passing but has already been used to show Harry is a Parselmouth. Which, is also the same thing for Mrs. Cole, she told us about Tom Riddle, and I think she was already used and closed later in the book during "The Cave" chapter, because how else would we have known about that location. Sorry, if this doesn't make sense.
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Luna Logic - Jan 16, 2007 12:51 pm (#49 of 62)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Choices (#5 ) : “I think she was becoming very suspicious of Tom and his behavior and I believe she feared him.”
journeymom (#4 ) “we won't meet her again.”
When I read these two element in this order, it sounds a bit sinister… What do you think of a late visit of Voldemort in the orphanage, in the period before his ascension?
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Choices - Jan 16, 2007 7:54 pm (#50 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ascension to what? I really don't see any "ascending" in Voldemort's future. I think he is going down....literally and figuratively.
I doubt Mrs. Cole is still alive - muggles do not have the longevity of wizards, and I doubt Voldemort would care to relive that particular part of his past.
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Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 2:21 am (#51 of 62)
Choices, I think what Luna meant by "ascension" was "rebirth." (If I am wrong, don't hesitate to say so, Luna .)
And yes, I am quite sure Mrs. Cole is not still alive. She says that she was not much older than Merope when Mrs. Riddle had her baby at the orphanage. We know that Merope was 19 when Tom was born in 1926. So say Mrs. Cole would be between 20 and 22 years old? When Harry saw the orphanage scene in the Pensieve, it was in October 2006. That means Mrs. Cole would have been over 100 years old at that time. Possible that she was still alive, but not likely. (grin)
On the other hand, there *is* no canon as to how she died. It is possible a vengeful and ungrateful Tom Riddle had something to do with that, but I don't think we'll ever find out. I doubt if Jo would consider this to be an important detail.
Laura
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Chemyst - Jan 17, 2007 6:55 am (#52 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
According to the Lexicon Master Timeline, Harry saw the memory in October of 1996. If Mrs. Cole was 20 when Tom was born on New Year's Eve, 1926, then Mrs. Cole would have been 90 or turned 90 by the end of the year (in Harry's time).
Even giving her an extra ten years though, I think her relevance to the story is over. Just because Tom did not want to return to the orphanage in the diary scenes, there isn't any indication he held anything against Mrs. Cole personally. She was the one who allowed him to attend Hogwarts in the first place. His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda than with a hatred of Mrs. Cole.
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Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 7:07 am (#53 of 62)
*Of course* I meant October 1996! (hits self on forehead) That was what was in my head, but my fingers had a mind of their own and wrote "October 2006". Thanks for catching me on that, Chemyst. It is not like me to be so careless.
(yours in accuracy - always!)
Laura
And I'm not so sure young Tom had nothing against Mrs. Cole personally. When talking to Dumbledore in his bedroom, he says, "You can't kid me! The asylum, that's where you're from, isn't it? 'Professor', yes, of course - well, I'm not going see? That old cat's the one who should be in the asylum. ..."
Not exactly endearing words in describing the woman who took him in.
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journeymom - Jan 17, 2007 11:32 am (#54 of 62)
"Yours in accuracy, always- "
This is how I'm going to sign my letters from now on. I love it.
Yours in accuracy, always- Miss Cooking Sherry
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Luna Logic - Jan 17, 2007 4:17 pm (#55 of 62)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Ascension ! aie ! caught ! I was writing in French ... I was thinking of the years when Tom was working for B and B, and just after, and building his power.
Chemyst, you say : "Tom did not want to return to the orphanage in the diary scenes (...) His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda (...)"
Sorry if you discuss that before in this thread, but what is the problem of agenda of Tom you are speaking of?
Laura W : yes maybe the hatred of Tom, the possible revenge...
But I'm not sure that another scene at the orphanage will not be in the book 7.
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Choices - Jan 17, 2007 7:28 pm (#56 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Luna - "Ascension ! aie ! caught ! I was writing in French ... "
LOL I thought perhaps you were. :-)
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 17, 2007 9:03 pm (#57 of 62)
Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
journeymom, I have never ever used the term "lol" but your post 54 warrants it -- you are a true kindred in humour.
*****************LOL******************** (if I'm gonna use it I might as well be bold...)
edit ~ just realised how that sounded - I have no intention of ridiculing those with accuracy - just for the record - I just loved journeymom's juxtaposition with Miss C. Sherry (her soon-to-be new user name I believe)
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journeymom - Jan 18, 2007 10:11 am (#58 of 62)
[hee hee!] Me and My, glad I made you 'laugh out loud'. No one could think you're ridiculing those who insist on accuracy at this site, of all places. That standard is one of the reasons I keep coming back!
I added Miss Cooking Sherry to my profile...
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Chemyst - Jan 18, 2007 2:50 pm (#59 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda (...)"
Sorry if you discuss that before in this thread, but what is the problem of agenda of Tom you are speaking of? – Luna Logic
I am pretty sure that hasn't been discussed on this thread because we learned about that part of Tom's life in CS13, long before we were introduced to Mrs. Cole. In The Very Secret Diary chapter, we see Tom asking Headmaster Dippet to allow him to stay at the school that summer. Since Myrtle had just died, Headmaster Dippet replies, "The thing is, Tom, special arrangements might have been made for you but in the current circumstances..." Tom gets the idea that if the person/thing responsible for Myrtle's death were caught, then he might get to stay at Hogwarts over the summer. Since he isn't about to turn himself in for playing with a Basilisk, he proceeds to frame Hagrid and his spider in the hope that Dippet would then let him (Tom) stay.
So it is fairly apparent that Tom had been experimenting with controlling the Basilisk and that he had a personal agenda that had something to do with the Chamber and/or learning to make the diary horcrux. I don't think he wanted to stay at Hogwarts because he had any special loathing for Mrs. Cole. If she were that awful, he'd just have hexed her. No, he had a personal agenda to learn darker magic— as soon as possible; and to do that he needed to be at Hogwarts where he could study in the restricted section of the library, not back at the orphanage where he'd risk being caught for performing underage magic.
(Dumbledore did not allow horcrux-making books in the library, but we don't know if Dippet might have allowed one.)
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Fawkes Egg - Feb 18, 2007 3:16 pm (#60 of 62)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
From what little we sa of Dippet, I don't think he would have allowed it, but he wouldn't have been able to to put a stop to it if Horcrux-making in the library was brought to his attention.
Now, if only Mrs Cole had been magical, she would have given young Tom a firmer hand with his darker magical experiments, I think!
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Vulture - Feb 19, 2007 10:50 am (#61 of 62)
It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Tom Riddle is decended from the Gaunts. Bad genes. Tom Riddle would have become Voldemort even if his father had raised him from a baby in all the wealth and luxury he could have.
Harry Potter is from good stock (but we know little of the Potter side, as yet) and would turn out to be the hero no matter how he was raised ... and in spite how he was raised. (Soul Search - Dec 14, 2006 5:00 pm (#35))
Dumbledore would disagree. In Book 2, he is emphatic that "it is our choices which make us what we are". Neither Harry becoming a hero nor young Tom Riddle becoming Voldemort was inevitable.
That is not to say, of course, that genes play no role _ if Tom Riddle had tried his hardest to make good choices he would still have shown the "marks", as it were, of his messed-up ancestry. And if Harry had made villainous choices, his heritage would, from time to time, have nevertheless shone through as something he could have made much more of.
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Meoshimo - Mar 22, 2007 8:13 pm (#62 of 62)
The winner of the "Mrs. Cole" Thread Pocket Dictionary Quick-Draw Award is:
me and my shadow 813
For:
Use of the word "juxtaposition", Jan 17, 2007 8:03 pm (#57 of 61)
And, she can hold her liquor. Dumbledore sizes her up gives her Gin. No tea for her.
I figure the paperwork Dd had was like Doctor Who's blank I.D. It shows the observer whatever they need to see. Or, his magical spell caused her to see whatever she thought she needed to see.
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Steve Newton - Dec 4, 2006 7:30 am (#2 of 62)
Librarian
I really can't see how we can solve this. You h ave listed just about all that we know and I don't see any obvious handles to grab.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 4, 2006 8:07 am (#3 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
More intriguing to me, she said about Merope, she was about my age and I had just started here at the time. Makes me wonder, is she married, with her own children? If she isn't how did she avoid having maternal instincts prevent her from treating Tom as anything other than one of her wards.
At one point as she guides Dumbledore to Tom's room, the narrative describes everything and the children being were very grey but other wise well taken care of.
It seems to me that a young woman, seeing a child born that she knows has no family, might become attached to that child if she spent all those years with him, supervising and in authority.
She said he didn't cry much. Did she hold him, cradle him, and provide human contact that infants need for proper maturation? Or did she do her duty, change him feed him, put him down and move on to the next kid?
And of course every summer that Tom came back, did she never ask any questions, was Tom so forbidding from the start that she was just glad to be shot of him in September? And the last one, did Tom ever try anything on her? Not before he knew he was "special" perhaps but certainly after his skills developed? Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything?
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journeymom - Dec 4, 2006 10:56 am (#4 of 62)
"Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything? " Oh, I'd doubt that very much. That was a demonstration of Dumbledore's skill and cunning. He's pretty manipulative when he needs to be. Rather Slytherin, sometimes. --Upon rereading this, it occures to me that this describes Tom Riddle as well. The difference is that Dumbledore got what he wanted not by frightening Mrs Cole, but by working with her, showing her what she thought was required.--
Mrs Cole strikes me as a Dickensien type character. Oliver Twist was an orphan, Pip from Great Expectations was an orphan and David Copperfield was separated from his mother and sent to a strict boarding school. All three characters had female caretakers who Mrs Cole puts me in mind of. She isn't at all cruel like some of the women in Dickens' stories, but efficient and unattached.
There is no mention that Mrs Cole had children of her own, so whether she did or not, it isn't supposed to be relevant. It's important that she didn't give him motherly attention and affection. I think JKR is saying Tom Riddle's personality is a result of nature and nurture, both.
I don't think Mrs Cole is important beyond the scene we see her in, and we won't meet her again. She exists to inform us about Tom's childhood. Nonetheless, I really like Mrs Cole. JKR painted a powerful, evocative picture with that one pensieve scene. And she created an interesting, sympathetic character in a relatively short passage.
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Choices - Dec 4, 2006 11:55 am (#5 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't really think her letting Tom go had anything to do with trusting Dumbledore. I think she was becoming very suspicious of Tom and his behavior and I believe she feared him. Dumbledore came along and offered to more or less take Tom off her hands and I think she jumped at the chance to be rid of him.
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vball man - Dec 4, 2006 2:10 pm (#6 of 62)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I thought that the paper was just paper. A diversion to distract attention from DD's wand hand...
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Meoshimo - Dec 4, 2006 7:38 pm (#7 of 62)
If I remember correctly, Dumbledore took out his wand while reaching for the paper, waved his wand once over it, and handed it to Mrs. Cole. While she was looking at it, we can assume that Dumbledore summoned the Gin bottle and glasses. I can't remember for sure if her eyes do the out-of-focus-or-momentary-glazed-look thing, but I'm pretty sure she swallows whatever it was she read and says something like "That seems to be in order."
I also think that she might be married, since everyone calls her 'Mrs. Cole'. But also, when I was a kid and had a teacher whose name prefix was 'Ms.' or 'Miss', we all tended to call them 'Mrs.', so who knows?
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Choices - Dec 4, 2006 7:51 pm (#8 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Mrs. Cole....."Who registered him? His parents?"
There was no doubt that Mrs. Cole was an inconveniently smart woman. Apparently Dumbledore thought so too, for Harry now saw him slip his wand out of the pocket of his velvet suit, at the same time picking up a piece of perfectly blank paper from Mrs. Cole's desktop.
"Here," said Dumbledore, waving his wand once as he passed her the piece of paper, "I think this will make everything clear."
Mrs. Cole's eyes slid out of focus and back again as she gazed intently at the blank paper for a moment.
"That seems perfectly in order," she said placidly, handing it back. Then her eyes fell upon the bottle of gin and two glasses that had certainly not been present a few seconds before.
"Er---may I offer you a glass of gin?" she said in an extra refined voice.
"Thank you very much," said Dumbledore, beaming.
From HBP - Ch. 13 - The Secret Riddle
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journeymom - Dec 4, 2006 9:06 pm (#9 of 62)
Thank you, Choices, for hunting that down and posting it!
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 4, 2006 11:39 pm (#10 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited by S.E. Jones Dec 8, 2006 5:57 pm
"Did Tom ever pull the Dumbledore and show Mrs Cole the blank sheet of paper that explained everything? " Oh, I'd doubt that very much.
Yes, but Voldemort is a cruel man with little consideration for anyone and a great love of power and dominance. Once he learns he can use his powers to control people how far would he go, with a mere muggle?
Mrs Cole strikes me as a Dickensien type character. She isn't at all cruel like some of the women in Dickens' stories, but efficient and unattached.
So is Voldemort!
There is no mention that Mrs Cole had children of her own, so whether she did or not, it isn't supposed to be relevant. It's important that she didn't give him motherly attention and affection. I think JKR is saying Tom Riddle's personality is a result of nature and nurture, both.
Yes, I agree that JK is showing factors in Tom's emotional developement. I can't help but think that his nature however, dominates, (he was an odd baby, didn't cry much). I think it is important that he didn't get much motherly affection too. The motherly affection was sorely missing from his birth mother, she tricked the father into the relationship, when the father took off so did she (I confess this is a bit had on Merope)===
I don't think Mrs Cole is important beyond the scene we see her in, and we won't meet her again. She exists to inform us about Tom's childhood. Nonetheless, I really like Mrs Cole. JKR painted a powerful, evocative picture with that one pensieve scene. And she created an interesting, sympathetic character in a relatively short passage.
JKR never throws anything out! Everyone makes a contribution. Minor characters mentioned in passing in one book come back to prove their worth time and again. ie Stan Shunpike, Mundugus, Mrs Figgs. I am still waiting for the Brazilian snake to come back even though it was a muggle snake.
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Laura W - Dec 5, 2006 3:32 am (#11 of 62)
"More intriguing to me, she said about Merope, she was about my age and I had just started here at the time. Makes me wonder, is she married, with her own children? If she isn't how did she avoid having maternal instincts prevent her from treating Tom as anything other than one of her wards." (Mrs. Sirius)
This woman ran an orphanage, right? *All* of the children in it were orphans. Parentless. I imagine she treated all of them the same. And she did not seem to treat them badly.
"It seems to me that a young woman, seeing a child born that she knows has no family, might become attached to that child if she spent all those years with him, supervising and in authority. (Mrs. Sirius)
Should she then have become emotionally attached to *all* the boys and girls who passed through her doors over the years? I guess she could have, but they are not really her own children ... and she is doing a good thing by taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!
As one who absolutely adores the works of Dickens, I do not see her as a Dickensian character at all. Of course she and the orphanage are not as good as loving parents would be for the children. That goes without saying. But I do not see her as a negative character in the series.
I'm guessing she tried as hard with Tom Riddle as with any of the others but, *very* early on, he started exhibiting very unpleasant characteristics which escalated quickly to, "He scares the other children" (Mrs. Cole - HBP) . And we know he stole.
I certainly do not blame Mrs. Cole for being glad that he - from age 11 on - would be away from the other children (and her) for part of each year at least.
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journeymom - Dec 5, 2006 9:11 am (#12 of 62)
" I can't help but think that his nature however, dominates..." I completely agree! Marvolo and Morphin were a genetic mess. Tom Riddle really was never treated cruelly. He was treated without affection, neutrally. Not all children who are unattached grow up to be power hungry, cruel, dark minded murderers.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 5, 2006 9:49 am (#13 of 62)
I wonder how much we will see of Mrs Cole in Book 7 as Harry hunts for the horcruxes.
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T Vrana - Dec 5, 2006 10:44 am (#14 of 62)
Yes, but Voldemort is a cruel man with little consideration for anyone and a great love of power and dominance. Once he learns he can use his powers to control people how far would he go, with a mere muggle? (mrs. sirius)
I think Tom would have been very careful not to use magic over the summers at the orphanage. He would not want to risk expulsion and detecting underage magic at a Muggle Orphanage would be easy enough for the MoM.
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juliebug - Dec 5, 2006 12:09 pm (#15 of 62)
Unless there are more memories of Mrs. Cole stashed away somewhere, I doubt that she will appear in book 7. The action of book 7 will take place about 55 years after Voldemort completed his 7 years at Hogwarts and about 62 years after Dumbledore met her and Tom Riddle. While an age was never given, she had to have been at least in her 20's back when Tom Riddle was 11 (and I suspect a bit older still) so the woman would be at least 82 years old (though as I said before, I suspect much older.) Chances are excellent that she is no longer living.
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Meoshimo - Dec 5, 2006 3:25 pm (#16 of 62)
And she was there when Riddle was born, so she would have had to have been in her thirties when Dumbledore met her.
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juliebug - Dec 5, 2006 4:18 pm (#17 of 62)
Forgot that part Thanks Meoshimo. So Mrs. Cole would be at least in her 90's and likely pushing 100. It's possible she's still living, but I don't think it's likely.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 5, 2006 11:46 pm (#18 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I believe that Merope was about 18 (age given in another chapter, The House of Gaunt) when she married and had her child. Mrs Coles describe Merope as being not much older than herself.
Should she then have become emotionally attached to *all* the boys and girls who passed through her doors over the years? I guess she could have, but they are not really her own children ... and she is doing a good thing by taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!
Precisely, Laura. JK makes clear that the children are well treated at this home even if it is not the top of the line materials. It may be a bit grey but all is clean and well card for. Children are taken out on excursion. Mrs Coles tends to their hurts and injuries,she is aware and seems to nurture of all of them. She seems to hold no particular warmth or affection for Tom. Also the way she described it, is seems to me Tom may have been a longer resident then the other kids there. "no one ever came looking for him" leads me to think the other kids pass through spend sometime but then find long lost relatives.
This is why I thought that perhaps she might have had special affection for Tom
Nothing from what we see of her leads me to blame Mrs Cole for the lack of emotion between Mrs Cole and Riddle. He stared out as "a funny baby...hardly ever cried.."
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Choices - Dec 6, 2006 11:01 am (#19 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I really do not get the impression that Mrs. Cole had any special affection for Tom at all. She seems to think him odd from the get go. He was a funny baby, hardly ever crying, and she seemed to think he was strange and his behavior definitely suspicious. If anything, I think she thought him less lovable than the other children, a loner who had little emotion and who threatened the other children. I believe she had little time for interacting with the children and even less for Tom. I feel sure the orphanage was under-funded and understaffed, so Mrs. Cole was too busy to expend time and energy on any of the kids. She took care of their important needs - food, clothes and illness - and had no time for anything else.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 6, 2006 1:17 pm (#20 of 62)
I agree Choices, and would be willing to go one step further and say that she was a bit fearful of him.
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Meoshimo - Dec 6, 2006 7:04 pm (#21 of 62)
Fearful in a vague sort of way.
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Choices - Dec 6, 2006 7:32 pm (#22 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I agree. I think she saw the potential for even greater "evil" than he had already displayed and feared what he might do as he grew older and stronger.
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Laura W - Dec 7, 2006 2:10 am (#23 of 62)
She certainly jumped at the chance to get rid of him, even for part of the year, when DD offered it! (Not that I blame her.) Before telling DD, "He scares the other children," and "There have been incidents ... nasty things..," she made absolutely sure that *whatever* she told her visitor about Tom, the boy would be going to the school.
I think a couple of you are just a tiny bit hard on Mrs. Cole. If I had to run a whole orphanage and had very good suspicion that one of my charges killed another child's rabbit and caused two other children to go "strange" after being taken into a cave with him (not to mention other odd things going on), I would be kind of afraid of him too.
And I think it was very responsible of her to not want the other children to be exposed to Riddle any more than they absolutely had to. I wouldn't exactly call it "loving" towards the other children, but I think it shows some caring for their welfare and well-being beyond just their basic physical needs.
I agree that she was undoubtedly overworked and underpaid, as well. Remember, on top of everything, we are talking about England in the 1920s here. Very little was known about child psychology or how to deal with anti-social behaviour (not that anything would have worked on the future Lord Voldy-Thing, anyway).
Laura
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Thom Matheson - Dec 7, 2006 9:46 am (#24 of 62)
And, she loved her Gin. Do you Tangaray?
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Fawkes Egg - Dec 7, 2006 1:38 pm (#25 of 62)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
Very little was known about child psychology or how to deal with anti-social behaviour (not that anything would have worked on the future Lord Voldy-Thing, anyway).
What, you don't think all the trouble with Voldy could have been avoided if we'd had ASBOs back then?!
Heehee...
As Harry observed, "The children seemed well cared for, but there was no denying that it was a grim place in which to grow up."
I think this shows that Mrs. Cole did her best with limited resources, and the fact that she was bothered about Tom scaring the other children shows that she did care for them, even if she didn't always have the time and energy to show it.
(for non-UK Forum members, an ASBO = Anti-Social Behaviour Order. Generally considered a useless slap on the wrist issued to teens with criminal tendencies).
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azi - Dec 7, 2006 1:57 pm (#26 of 62)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
What, you don't think all the trouble with Voldy could have been avoided if we'd had ASBOs back then?!
**chuckles**
I agree with Harry on this one. Orphanages weren't nice places to be. They tried - taking the kids to the seaside must have been a costly effort - but it still doesn't replace growing up with parents or foster parents.
At the end of the day, what could Mrs Cole do about Voldie's behaviour? Sending him to his room wouldn't exactly work would it? That could have made things worse, if he could do what she suspected he'd done before. She didn't have the evidence to prove he'd done anything either, no matter if she suspected it.
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Laura W - Dec 7, 2006 8:20 pm (#27 of 62)
"but it still doesn't replace growing up with parents or foster parents." (azi)
I assume you mean "it still doesn't replace growing up with loving parents or loving foster parents," azi .
Look at Snape. Well, we don't know all the details yet but, from what Harry saw in Snape's mind during that Occlumency lesson, Severus grew up with his natural parents and his childhood was hardly happy. And the best example of a situation where it was NOT preferable to be raised by the two people one was born to is Sirius Black. He had a mother a father a brother and a large extended family. Yet, he was raised by totally hateful parents (hateful to anyone non-pure-blood *and* to their eldest son). Living there was a total nightmare to Sirius, which is why he escaped to a happy family unit (the Potters) at age 16 and went out on his own at age 17. Even in OoP, when Sirius was a grown man in his thirties and his mother was dead, his "dear old Mum" lost no opportunity to loudly berate him in front of others and to and call him vile names from her portrait.
Foster home being preferable to an orphanage where you are taken care of? Not necessarily. Sure, if the foster home is one where the child is supported and respected. But what about the Dursleys? Harry was *far more* badly abused in a so-called normal home situation than Tom was in an orphanage.
Laura
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 1:23 am (#28 of 62)
Harry was *far more* badly abused in a so-called normal home situation than Tom was in an orphanage. Laura
I don't know that we can say that as we have not seen any interactions between the staff and Tom.
As for the 'normal home' situation...The Dursley's home may be normal to us muggles, but it would not be considered a normal home in the wizarding world. DD even says that would Harry have been placed in a wizard home he would have grown up a 'prince.' I don't think we can call the Dursley's home 'normal.'
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Laura W - Dec 14, 2006 5:47 am (#29 of 62)
I guess what I meant by normal was a female mother, a male father and a child which was born to them. Perhaps I should have used the word "traditional" rather than "normal."
"I don't know that we can say that as we have not seen any interactions between the staff and Tom." (TheSaint)
As I wrote before, "and she is taking them in, feeding them, keeping them clean, nursing them when they are sick ("... and take the iodine upstairs to Martha, Billy Stubbs has been picking his scabs and Eric Whalley's oozing all over his sheets"), educating them, buying them little presents, buying them clothes that fit, and taking them on holidays. It's a heck of a lot more than Harry ever got! I'll bet Mrs. Cole remembered their birthdays, and even had the cook bake a cake!"
Canon:
Tom Riddle was called "Tom" and "Tom Riddle" by Mrs. Cole when she spoke to DD. The Dursley adults always called Harry, "boy" or "you."
From his second birthday on, Harry *never* had a birthday present or card - except for a coat hanger or a piece of tissue or Uncle Vernon's gnarled socks - from the Dursleys. He was never bought clothes that fit but wore only Dudley's way-too-big castoffs. Obviously the children at the orphanage (and we have no reason to believe that did not include Riddle) did get presents such as mouth organs, yo-yo's and such, since Tom stole them from the others.
Harry was never included on any outing whatsoever - not even a trip to the zoo or swimming pool - until he just short of 11 years old, and even then, he was bought a cheap lemon ice when the other boys had big chocolate ice creams; but had to stay with Mrs. Figg and cats. All the children at the orphanage - including Tom Riddle - were taken on holiday. Like to a certain seaside where a certain cave resided. (wink)
The 10-year-old Tom Riddle had his own room in the orphanage. The one DD met him in. It undoubtedly was not fancy but had a real bed and a bureau in which to put his clothes and other possessions. Until Harry Potter turned 11-years-old he slept in a cramped, windowless cupboard under the stairs with the spiders; and was locked up there as punishment.
Mrs. Cole expressed sympathy to DD for the girl who brought the baby Tom to her. The Dursleys spoke ill and disrespectfully of Harry's dead parents in front of him (and aunt Marge) on *every* occasion they spoke of them from the time Harry came to them right until the end of Book Six.
Tom was allowed to be friends with the other children in the orphanage - although he didn't want to. Harry was *never* allowed to have friends when he went to the Muggle school because Dudley and his gang always threatened to beat up of the other kids who wanted to befriend his cousin or to pick him to be part of a sports team. This is canon in PS.
Harry's glasses were always broken because his face was used as a punching bag by Dudley and Piers and the third member of that gang (Malcolm, was it?). And as late as HBP, when Harry is a few weeks short of turning 16, we read, "Harry ran down the stais two at a time, coming to an abrupt halt several steps from the bottom, as long experience had taught him to remain out of arm's reach of his uncle whenever possible." When DD goes in to talk to Tom, there is no mention of young Riddle being too skinny or in any other way physically ill or injured.
The charges at the orphanage were allowed to have animals to take care of and love. A certain unfortunate rabbit comes to mind. If the other children could own pets, I see no reason to believe Tom couldn't have kept one as well. From age 15 months on, Harry had nobody and nothing to love, nor to love him! Aunt Petunia would not have allowed so much as a goldfish in the house - most particularly if that "abnormal" and "unnatural" child had wanted one.
And so on, and so on.
Laura
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 10:08 am (#30 of 62)
Mrs. Cole was not the one doing that. The state provided money for education, clothes, etc. I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either. Administration of funds hardly makes one 'kind and loving.' She was doing her job.
Dumbledore knows when he leaves Harry in the Dursley's care that he is subjecting him to precisely what occurred. It is a price he was willing to pay to keep him safe.
Tom hated his name so it was probably a bit annoying to hear it from her.
The presents in question may not be birthday presents but the 'take the orphange to sit on Santa's lap outing.
The orphanage children were provided outings, by the state, but Harry was not exactly locked in a closet 24-7.
Riddle may have had his own room simply because the other children were terrified of him...I am sure it was not because they all had them. He was sort confinded for the sake of the others.
Basically...neither is a pleasure cruise and both would be considered abnormal, both doing harm and both having thier effects.
Both are put into a position suitable for the trials ahead. Only Harry is capable of withstanding the effects and remaining pure at heart.
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Choices - Dec 14, 2006 10:41 am (#31 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think if Harry had gone to live with a wizard family, he would have been treated like a "prince" only because of who he was - the "boy who lived" and the one who caused Voldemort to go away. I don't get the impression that wizard children are ordinarily treated like princes and princesses. Harry was special and would have been treated like royalty because he did a very great thing for the wizarding world.
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TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 12:57 pm (#32 of 62)
Yes, that is my thought too.
Had he gone to a wizarding family without his reputation, they would have not had the prejudice the Dursley's did and would have known what was going on when strange things happened around him, and so would he for that matter.
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Chemyst - Dec 14, 2006 3:41 pm (#33 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either.
That sounds a little harsh; especially because no one ever claimed Mrs. Cole purchased gifts from her own money. Mrs. Cole was responsible for seeing that the simple toys that were provided were distributed fairly. Petunia did not even rise to that basic standard.
I don't think the point is who or which agent bought the items. The point is that efforts were made to give the children in the orphanage some basic humanizing items and experiences. The contrast is that Harry, even though placed with his blood relatives and living in a single-family house, was still living at a level of emotional support that was even less than what the state provided. That has to be abysmal. You are correct that "Harry was not exactly locked in a closet 24-7." He was allowed out to cook & clean. At other times he could leave the house so as not to be underfoot.
As far as emotional "normalcy" goes, Harry had one whopping difference. Within the orphanage, most of the children received fairly even treatment, and what funds were spent for their welfare were distributed equally. Harry, on the other hand, did have a 24/7 in-his-face example of seeing his cousin get thirty gifts of 'play station quality' to his single toothpick. The orphans lives may not have been a bed of roses, but they were not subjected to such blatant unbalanced cruelty either.
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journeymom - Dec 14, 2006 5:35 pm (#34 of 62)
"I don't know where you got that she was the one buying them little presents either. "
She didn't buy them a house, food, clothing or medicine with her own money, either.
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Soul Search - Dec 14, 2006 6:00 pm (#35 of 62)
Every now and then I run across a debate about how much of a role genetics or upbringing play in how someone turns out. Both sides seem to have good arguments and evidence.
I think what we are seeing with series characters is JKR expressing the side of genetic destiny.
Tom Riddle is decended from the Gaunts. Bad genes. Tom Riddle would have become Voldemort even if his father had raised him from a baby in all the wealth and luxury he could have.
Harry Potter is from good stock (but we know little of the Potter side, as yet) and would turn out to be the hero no matter how he was raised ... and in spite how he was raised.
I think JKR expresses this genetic destiny, to a lesser degree, with Draco Malfoy and the Weasleys (except Percy, the git.)
She has also made a statement about prejudice and judging people by their heritage with her "pure-blood," "half-blood," and "muggle-born" designations and Dumbledore's statements, particularly the one to Fudge at the end of GoF. She is clearly on the side of not being prejudiced.
Bit of a conflict, there. Genetic destiny for some characters, "be all you can be" for others.
I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 14, 2006 11:21 pm (#36 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way.
It goes back to that basic -nature verse nurture- question. As Laura W pointed out out in her post, Riddle was raised in an environment where his basic emotional needs were provided for, even catered to more than Harry's. While it may not have been lavish, support was given. Harry was actually discouraged from the opportunity for normal emotional growth.
Yet, despite the deprivations, Harry has always taken the human contact approach. His very first opportunity to make a friend he grabbed (Ron). He instantly bonds with the entire Weasley family. Mrs Weasley becomes a parental figure in book 2, and Ginny becomes a family member to protect. Mr Weasley is an authority figure to trust in the third book.
Riddle's first contact that we see where can bond with someone, he instantly rejects (Dumbledore). Other opportunities he had to form a human contact, he uses to terrorize (kids in cave).
Harry's upbringing could have told him to not trust anyone. Tom's could have said, "yes, there are people out there who care". The only true difference I see is that Harry apparently was conceived in love and and raised in his first year, with love. Voldemort was conceived in deceit and vanity. His first year could easily have been of a young woman who grows to raise a "special" orphan verse a woman that provided institutionally adequate care for a "funny" baby that did not require much attention.
In my earlier post I mention Mrs Cole's age. Not all orphans necessarily come into the institution in infancy and certainly not all are born there with no family to ever claim him. So Tom has the possible opportunity to be a special child with whom Mrs Cole, and might bond for that reason.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 15, 2006 12:14 am (#37 of 62)
Mre S, that is about as clear and succinct as I have heard. Well written.
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Choices - Dec 15, 2006 10:52 am (#38 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I hate to say it, but I do not see Tom Riddle "bonding" with anyone. He was and is a loner who seems to trust no one. Mrs. Cole, if anything, seemed to be a little afraid of Tom and thought him strange and possibly cruel to the other children. I see no reason that she might want to bond with him. I think she was eager to be rid of him because she feared he would become even more of a behavior problem as he got older.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 15, 2006 11:59 am (#39 of 62)
Spot on Choices.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 15, 2006 3:10 pm (#40 of 62)
Let it snow!
Choices --I think if Harry had gone to live with a wizard family, he would have been treated like a "prince" only because of who he was - the "boy who lived" and the one who caused Voldemort to go away.--
You might also add to that that, even without being the "boy who lived", he may have been raised as a little prince because of who he was in terms of being the sole heir to a wealthy, pureblooded family. It seems, even with all the halfbloods and Muggle-borns now in the wizarding world, that blood status does mean something to their world at large. Add to that wealth and you have kids who are raised to be a little pampered and who exhibit the cocky attitude we see in characters like Sirius, James, and Draco. I'm not saying that Sirius and James were brats, as I think there's a difference between being pampered and a brat, that mainly being the values they are taught. (So, the difference would be in a kid wanting a broom and saying "gee, I'd really like a broom like that, mum" and knowing they're going to get it and saying "I want that, buy it for me now".)
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Anna L. Black - Dec 16, 2006 1:00 pm (#41 of 62)
"I hate to say it, but I do not see Tom Riddle "bonding" with anyone. He was and is a loner who seems to trust no one. Mrs. Cole, if anything, seemed to be a little afraid of Tom and thought him strange and possibly cruel to the other children. I see no reason that she might want to bond with him. I think she was eager to be rid of him because she feared he would become even more of a behavior problem as he got older. - Choices
Yes, but this is the picture as we see it when Tom is 11 years old. Why couldn't Mrs. Cole get attached to him when he was still a new-born? (And a quiet one, which is a bonus ) The answer is probably "for literary reasons" JKR has. But I actually think she contradicts herself when showing us that Tom was ill disposed right from the start. Every time I think of his childhood, I'm not sure what I believe - wheter it was nature or nurture that made him what he is. It just doesn't fit anything else in the books...
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Detail Seeker - Dec 16, 2006 3:20 pm (#42 of 62)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Sahah, you wrote: You might also add to that that, even without being the "boy who lived", he may have been raised as a little prince because of who he was in terms of being the sole heir to a wealthy, pureblooded family.
In this situation, Harry need not have remained the sole heir. James an Lily were still young, so siblings might have come. But that was not to be.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 16, 2006 11:35 pm (#43 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Why couldn't Mrs. Cole get attached to him when he was still a new-born? (And a quiet one, which is a bonus ) The answer is probably "for literary reasons" JKR has. But I actually think she contradicts herself when showing us that Tom was ill disposed right from the start.
Anna, I am not sure I understand your comment. If I understand it correctly, you see it that Mrs Cole didn't attach to Baby Tom only because JK employed a litarary method, shortcut or perhaps and error? Is that correct?
I thought they didn't bond because right from the start Tom's personality was such that he did not wish for human cantact and interactions, he has not trust of others. I thought the JK took the trouble to have Mrs Coles say that Merope was about her age to stress how very possible it would have been for her to bond with the infant born as she watch in her orphanage.
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Laura W - Dec 17, 2006 5:27 pm (#44 of 62)
"Harry's upbringing could have told him to not trust anyone. Tom's could have said, "yes, there are people out there who care". The only true difference I see is that Harry apparently was conceived in love and and raised in his first year, with love. Voldemort was conceived in deceit and vanity. His first year could easily have been of a young woman who grows to raise a "special" orphan verse a woman that provided institutionally adequate care for a "funny" baby that did not require much attention." (Mrs. Sirius)
I do not completely disagree with you here. However - and this is not taking away from what you wrote above -, Dumbledore obviously feels that choices were involved here too. To some extent, at least. Tom's choices and Harry's choices.
Dumbledore - who has complete knowledge of how Riddle lived and what he did while living in the orphanage, and all about his family history (both from what Mrs. Cole tells him and from the scene with Bob Ogden in the Pensieve) on both the Gaunt and the Riddle sides - feels Tom *had* choices in what direction he took.
From HBP, Chapter 20: "The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom ... I wish I could." "Force you to make repayment for your crimes." That sure sounds like DD puts the responsibility for the life Riddle has led since leaving Hogwarts on Riddle himself. I mean, DD doesn't exactly say something like, "What you've been doing has been very wrong, Tom, but I know you couldn't help it because you never had a loving mother or loving mother-substitute."
And regarding how Harry turned out, DD says in HBP, p.476 (Raincoast), "Yes, Harry, you can love. Which given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing."
"I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way." (Soul Search)
Heh, heh. I'd say Tom definitely had more of an effect on her life than she did on his. He has a habit of doing that, in one form or another, on everyone he comes into contact with, doesn't he?
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Dec 17, 2006 11:04 pm (#45 of 62)
Jo is contradicting herself about choices, and she's using Mrs. Cole to back her up. Riddle was different from the start, even as a baby. He was doomed from birth to be a loner, at the very least because of what his parents did. That doesn't show much choice.
And I think the wizarding world leaving him completely unsupervised until the age of eleven was insane. No wonder he thought he was special. Don't they keep track of orphaned wizarding children at all? I can see Harry having to stay at the Dursleys for the blood protection, but why couldn't they have gotten Tom some guidance? Even at age eleven, Dumbledore wouldn't even tell him the truth about his mother being the magical one. I think finding out that his father was the muggle, and his mother the magic one was the one who died may well have pushed Tom over the edge permanently.
Even Dumbledore coming to speak to Mrs. Cole left him no choice. He told Tom he could come to Hogwarts or not, but Dumbledore had already promised Mrs. Cole he'd be taking Tom off her hands.
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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 18, 2006 12:42 am (#46 of 62)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Dumbledore obviously feels that choices were involved here too. To some extent, at least. Tom's choices and Harry's choices.
"I don't think Mrs. Cole plays much of a role in all this. She did not shape Tom Riddle in any way." (Soul Search)
Laura, I do agree that there are choices on both Harry and Voldemorts' part. Harry could easily choose to hate, hate muggles, hate Voldemort and the world for wrongs done to him. He certainly did not have many good examples of not being bitter and hostile. Early on Harry is asked what it is like living with muggles. He say something to the effect that it's terrible, but then modifies, and fairly says that it was awful with his aunt and uncle.
Harry bonds with Hagrid, he makes friends with Ron and then Hermione, he finds it in his heart to give Sirius a moment to explain himself, he even save -Wormtail-. These are all choices on his part.
We see less with Tom-Voldemort, so here I rely on my own experiences a bit. Voldemort is basically raised by Mrs. Cole from birth. This is a woman who cared enough to remain in a very difficult job for years. (I will testify that raising children is extremely difficult).
I will also say that while raising children is difficult, it has rewards that makes it all worthwhile. One is experiencing the magical charm of children. How many times have I not said to my kids "you are lucky you are cute" "I wouldn't keep you if you weren't so cute"? I am not unique in this sentiment. Kids can do the worst things possible and yet parents still forgive and then love them.
This however is not just a sentiment expressed for biological children. My mother had foster kids. I had no investment in these kids but knowing they lived with my mother, I did start to care for them greatly. I found them to be, cute and charming. I bought them gifts, took them to the movies and when my mother passed away, I took them in at great cost to my health and marriage. Although it did not work out, I stayed in touch with this kids even after they left my home.
Tom had every opportunity over the years to work charm on Mrs. Cole. he did not have to remain the funny baby that didn't cry much. Charm can easily be learned if one is not innately born to it. Voldemort choose only to have a hold on people of power and fear. He could easily choose to play with the other kids rabbit. Maybe do funny tricks like making it turn colors. Life is a constant opportunity to make a new decision, start all over again, right this minute.
Tom continues to use power to terrorize and control. Many alcoholics say they have no control over their addiction. However, they can choose to go into treatment and recovery, even if all their family and ancestors were alcoholics. They can stay in recovery if they choose to get the help to change. No matter what their family genetics, alcoholics can make decision that take them in different direction then their seeming destiny. Tom could too.
(My apologies to alcoholics if I have mangled the language or terminology)
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Laura W - Dec 18, 2006 1:03 am (#47 of 62)
Beautiful post, Mrs. Sirius. We may not be in agreement on every single tiny detail re this issue (we're not, in fact), but in the main I don't think we're way far apart either.
laura
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HPEnthusist - Dec 31, 2006 9:11 am (#48 of 62)
About the Brazillian Snake, I think it was just in passing but has already been used to show Harry is a Parselmouth. Which, is also the same thing for Mrs. Cole, she told us about Tom Riddle, and I think she was already used and closed later in the book during "The Cave" chapter, because how else would we have known about that location. Sorry, if this doesn't make sense.
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Luna Logic - Jan 16, 2007 12:51 pm (#49 of 62)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Choices (#5 ) : “I think she was becoming very suspicious of Tom and his behavior and I believe she feared him.”
journeymom (#4 ) “we won't meet her again.”
When I read these two element in this order, it sounds a bit sinister… What do you think of a late visit of Voldemort in the orphanage, in the period before his ascension?
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Choices - Jan 16, 2007 7:54 pm (#50 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ascension to what? I really don't see any "ascending" in Voldemort's future. I think he is going down....literally and figuratively.
I doubt Mrs. Cole is still alive - muggles do not have the longevity of wizards, and I doubt Voldemort would care to relive that particular part of his past.
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Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 2:21 am (#51 of 62)
Choices, I think what Luna meant by "ascension" was "rebirth." (If I am wrong, don't hesitate to say so, Luna .)
And yes, I am quite sure Mrs. Cole is not still alive. She says that she was not much older than Merope when Mrs. Riddle had her baby at the orphanage. We know that Merope was 19 when Tom was born in 1926. So say Mrs. Cole would be between 20 and 22 years old? When Harry saw the orphanage scene in the Pensieve, it was in October 2006. That means Mrs. Cole would have been over 100 years old at that time. Possible that she was still alive, but not likely. (grin)
On the other hand, there *is* no canon as to how she died. It is possible a vengeful and ungrateful Tom Riddle had something to do with that, but I don't think we'll ever find out. I doubt if Jo would consider this to be an important detail.
Laura
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Chemyst - Jan 17, 2007 6:55 am (#52 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
According to the Lexicon Master Timeline, Harry saw the memory in October of 1996. If Mrs. Cole was 20 when Tom was born on New Year's Eve, 1926, then Mrs. Cole would have been 90 or turned 90 by the end of the year (in Harry's time).
Even giving her an extra ten years though, I think her relevance to the story is over. Just because Tom did not want to return to the orphanage in the diary scenes, there isn't any indication he held anything against Mrs. Cole personally. She was the one who allowed him to attend Hogwarts in the first place. His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda than with a hatred of Mrs. Cole.
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Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 7:07 am (#53 of 62)
*Of course* I meant October 1996! (hits self on forehead) That was what was in my head, but my fingers had a mind of their own and wrote "October 2006". Thanks for catching me on that, Chemyst. It is not like me to be so careless.
(yours in accuracy - always!)
Laura
And I'm not so sure young Tom had nothing against Mrs. Cole personally. When talking to Dumbledore in his bedroom, he says, "You can't kid me! The asylum, that's where you're from, isn't it? 'Professor', yes, of course - well, I'm not going see? That old cat's the one who should be in the asylum. ..."
Not exactly endearing words in describing the woman who took him in.
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journeymom - Jan 17, 2007 11:32 am (#54 of 62)
"Yours in accuracy, always- "
This is how I'm going to sign my letters from now on. I love it.
Yours in accuracy, always- Miss Cooking Sherry
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Luna Logic - Jan 17, 2007 4:17 pm (#55 of 62)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Ascension ! aie ! caught ! I was writing in French ... I was thinking of the years when Tom was working for B and B, and just after, and building his power.
Chemyst, you say : "Tom did not want to return to the orphanage in the diary scenes (...) His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda (...)"
Sorry if you discuss that before in this thread, but what is the problem of agenda of Tom you are speaking of?
Laura W : yes maybe the hatred of Tom, the possible revenge...
But I'm not sure that another scene at the orphanage will not be in the book 7.
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Choices - Jan 17, 2007 7:28 pm (#56 of 62)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Luna - "Ascension ! aie ! caught ! I was writing in French ... "
LOL I thought perhaps you were. :-)
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 17, 2007 9:03 pm (#57 of 62)
Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
journeymom, I have never ever used the term "lol" but your post 54 warrants it -- you are a true kindred in humour.
*****************LOL******************** (if I'm gonna use it I might as well be bold...)
edit ~ just realised how that sounded - I have no intention of ridiculing those with accuracy - just for the record - I just loved journeymom's juxtaposition with Miss C. Sherry (her soon-to-be new user name I believe)
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journeymom - Jan 18, 2007 10:11 am (#58 of 62)
[hee hee!] Me and My, glad I made you 'laugh out loud'. No one could think you're ridiculing those who insist on accuracy at this site, of all places. That standard is one of the reasons I keep coming back!
I added Miss Cooking Sherry to my profile...
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Chemyst - Jan 18, 2007 2:50 pm (#59 of 62)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
His not wanting to return to the orphanage had more to do with that causing a severe delay in his personal agenda (...)"
Sorry if you discuss that before in this thread, but what is the problem of agenda of Tom you are speaking of? – Luna Logic
I am pretty sure that hasn't been discussed on this thread because we learned about that part of Tom's life in CS13, long before we were introduced to Mrs. Cole. In The Very Secret Diary chapter, we see Tom asking Headmaster Dippet to allow him to stay at the school that summer. Since Myrtle had just died, Headmaster Dippet replies, "The thing is, Tom, special arrangements might have been made for you but in the current circumstances..." Tom gets the idea that if the person/thing responsible for Myrtle's death were caught, then he might get to stay at Hogwarts over the summer. Since he isn't about to turn himself in for playing with a Basilisk, he proceeds to frame Hagrid and his spider in the hope that Dippet would then let him (Tom) stay.
So it is fairly apparent that Tom had been experimenting with controlling the Basilisk and that he had a personal agenda that had something to do with the Chamber and/or learning to make the diary horcrux. I don't think he wanted to stay at Hogwarts because he had any special loathing for Mrs. Cole. If she were that awful, he'd just have hexed her. No, he had a personal agenda to learn darker magic— as soon as possible; and to do that he needed to be at Hogwarts where he could study in the restricted section of the library, not back at the orphanage where he'd risk being caught for performing underage magic.
(Dumbledore did not allow horcrux-making books in the library, but we don't know if Dippet might have allowed one.)
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Fawkes Egg - Feb 18, 2007 3:16 pm (#60 of 62)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
From what little we sa of Dippet, I don't think he would have allowed it, but he wouldn't have been able to to put a stop to it if Horcrux-making in the library was brought to his attention.
Now, if only Mrs Cole had been magical, she would have given young Tom a firmer hand with his darker magical experiments, I think!
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Vulture - Feb 19, 2007 10:50 am (#61 of 62)
It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Tom Riddle is decended from the Gaunts. Bad genes. Tom Riddle would have become Voldemort even if his father had raised him from a baby in all the wealth and luxury he could have.
Harry Potter is from good stock (but we know little of the Potter side, as yet) and would turn out to be the hero no matter how he was raised ... and in spite how he was raised. (Soul Search - Dec 14, 2006 5:00 pm (#35))
Dumbledore would disagree. In Book 2, he is emphatic that "it is our choices which make us what we are". Neither Harry becoming a hero nor young Tom Riddle becoming Voldemort was inevitable.
That is not to say, of course, that genes play no role _ if Tom Riddle had tried his hardest to make good choices he would still have shown the "marks", as it were, of his messed-up ancestry. And if Harry had made villainous choices, his heritage would, from time to time, have nevertheless shone through as something he could have made much more of.
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Meoshimo - Mar 22, 2007 8:13 pm (#62 of 62)
The winner of the "Mrs. Cole" Thread Pocket Dictionary Quick-Draw Award is:
me and my shadow 813
For:
Use of the word "juxtaposition", Jan 17, 2007 8:03 pm (#57 of 61)
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